Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Green Cloud]

perhaps those walking steps could be attributed to something as simple as practice space, when the form was taught. The form and the weapon seem to take up a lot of space so it the practice area was small, the instructor may have just walked to an area with more room.

A Kwan dao is a Kwan dao and a pu dao (ja ma dao) is a pu dao, a naginata is a naginata. They are all blades at the end of a staff but they are not the same and do not have the same overall functionality. The different weights, lengths, and thickness of the blades, as well as metal, accounts for that..


Ja ma dao is the horse leg cutter much shorter with a ring at the end of the handle

[BM2]

Got the hooks off ebay. They are modern although it was listed as being antiques. I do have a single hook that is an antique and at least this one does not have the hook sharpened on the side facing your fingers. I think all modern ones inculding the ones in the photo, have for some reason that side sharp as well. I mean really, why would you want to slice your own fingers?
I found a close up of the guard on the Kwan do.

[PangQuan]

I am interested in seeing shaolin-do video's

I dont want to sift through 124 pages to find them. if you could link a few, thanks.

[Green Cloud]

go to page 121 ist post click the link

[Judge Pen]

Here's Me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

Ignore the cheesy music. I was playing around and forgot to delete it when I burned the DVD. Anyway, this is me. I'll wait to hear your feedback and then give you my thoughts and critique later. It's not perfect, but it is a representation of an SD weapon form done by yours truly.

Here's an SD student in a MMA fight agasint a wrestler:

Well ive always been pretty skeptical about some of the claims made but I have always said they are in good shape. I got a video of a Shaolin Do Guy from around Hazard Ky who entered a grappling match. He didnt know alot but he managed to beat the highschool wrestler he fought. He also has like a record of 6-1 or so in MMA. I fought him saturday and it was brutal. I will have a video of that fight later but here is him in his grappling match.

http://media.putfile.com/ShaolinDo

This was me after our fight.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/JuJitsuJoe/MyOuchy.jpg

Here's JJJ's fight with the same student:

My MMa fight vs Shaolin-Do student

http://media.putfile.com/2nd-fight I am the one in black and he is in the red.

And here's GM Sin The' himself (in the early 80s) breaking a block suspended by twine:
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/4519/gmsinthebreak.mpg

[TenTigers]

ok, one-this is coming from a staunch traditionalist so ...
ok, I am not crazy about the set itself. Too much posing and not enough application of the weapon. If it is Kuan-dao set, it shouyld have specific movements which pay homage to General Kuan. Stroking the beard, tightening the helmet,riding the horse,sharpening the blade, sneering at the enemy, etc.
ok, performance-wise: you looked like youwere walking through it.
There are specific times when you need to stop and hold a movement.
You also need to show that you are in control of the weapon, and not the other way around.
You need to focus on the entire movement and be in the moment. Feel your form, don't just go through the motions. You need intent. There were times when you would do a move, and before that move was fully completed, you already were going onto the next one. This shows that there was no intent. No fighting aspect, just playing the form. Kind of like a run-on sentence. When you hitthose "poses" (for lack of a better word) you need to "nail it", strong stance, good power.
You need to use a heavier weapon. Spending too much time playing with a light weapon gives you that look that you are not seriously using a weapon for fighting.
This is simply feedback. I have won numerous tournaments as have my students.
I know what it takes to make a form win, to make the judges as well as the audience take notice and FEEL you doing the form. They can actually feel yur spirit when you do a form with real power, connection, and intent.

[Green Cloud]

To sum it up you need real emotional content to quote the late bruce lee. Take it from me Ten Tigers actualy takes notes and keeps a record of everyone that he judges, thank god because I have attention defecit and usualy dose off.:D

[Judge Pen]

10Tigers. Thanks for the criticisms. It's nice to get feedback from someone with the experience and outside perspective that you have. I'll probably post more forms and let people tear them up.

I have a question about your critique. Early on you said that the form had too much posing in it. Then, in the critique of my performance, you said I didn't pause and hit the pose enough. Could you elaborate on these points a little and explain the difference? Thanks.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/

[TonyM.]

I liked it Judge. (This is a first. I hate everything.) I'd echo TT's review and add more forcefulness to the stepping. Your right ankle position in the beginning troubles me a little. Perhaps you were taught that way but I would have that foot firmly planted.

[Judge Pen]

I liked it Judge. (This is a first. I hate everything.) I'd echo TT's review and add more forcefulness to the stepping. Your right ankle position in the beginning troubles me a little. Perhaps you were taught that way but I would have that foot firmly planted.

No I was not taught that way. It's a mistake on my part. I have horrible hip flexibility and I think that contribute to the problem, but really it was carelessness on my part to let my foot roll up like that.

[PangQuan]

thanks for the postings. i look forward to seeing others.

the only kuan dao form i can compare that too is ours. i do not yet know it. though i learn it soon.

that is a little dao. did you remove the spike?

curious, at the time of that performance, how long had you been studying that particular set?

i would second the advice on the forcefullness of your stepping. as well as intent. i did get the impression that you were moving slower than you could, to keep correct form.

it is not bad though. quite different from the form our school practices.

[Judge Pen]

It is a smaller dao. It's only 6 feet tall and weighs 5lbs. It has a live and very sharp blade on it. It's not technically a kwan dao, I suppose, but I like using a live blade. There's no spike, just a counter-weight.

I was a bit tenative on a couple of the moves as this is the very form that I blew out my knee while doing and the floor was little slick. As I said, I'm not a forms person (never pretended to be) so some of the stylistic things are lost to me. And I have some minor limitations with flexibility that come into play on the proper stances. But, that's my form about as well as I could do it (a little nervous in the tournament and knowing that I was going to post it here).

I've had this form for a while. (13 years). I don't work on it often, but its a form that I can just pick up and do.

[B-Rad]

I've got a vid of a SD Tiger & Crane form on my comp. I forget where exactly it came from though (one of the schools' websites).

[Judge Pen]

I've got a vid of a SD Tiger & Crane form on my comp. I forget where exactly it came from though (one of the schools' websites).


Probably Atlanta's site. That particular video has been discussed quite a bit in previous threads.

[Wong Ying Home]

I agree entirely with TT

Work on stronger stance work, generate power from the root, user a more supple waist, keep your elbows working with better power generation, let the weapon move and turn your body inside the circle more.

Hold the Pose or moment, was not to suggest Pose more, it was to hint at holding the stance or movement at the required times, with better clarity, strength and spirit.

Use stronger visualisation in your mind of fighting an opponent, and think of killing him with cold blooded intent, that should liven the form up a bit, as opposed to a sunday afternoon walk in the park as your form looks empty and devoid of energy.

It's all there just needs work on the detail

[MasterKiller]

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

[Judge Pen]

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=65

5 animal form is the other form I did at the tournament. Frankly, I thought my performance was bad (much worse than the kwan dao :) ), but I think it was better than this guys' performance (no offense to the CSC people--just telling it as it is). I'll post that portion of my form for comparison.

[iron_silk]

Although I am not experienced I do have some thoughts if you don't mind:

1) Regarding TenTigers comments i just wanted to add that the weapon is called "Kwan Dao" in southern styles but "Da Dao" in northern styles which also means that it does NOT have any of the beard touching and galloping stuff.

2) To add to some other's comments on force you should also rhythm(**fixed**). There are parts where the move should be fast or slow etc depending on the purpose behind the move. E.g. if the move is to chase and cut someone then the pacing should be faster the similate the purpose behind the move.

[lxtruong]

2) To add to some other's comments on force you should also rthyme.

I think it would be awesome if you busted out some mad rhymes during the middle of the kata. I'll bring over my boombox and we'll see the shaolin-do rapper/lawyer white boy in action!!!!

[B-Rad]

It's too bad Mr. Mullins doesn't put his videos back up online... they got ragged on a bunch at the time, but it was still better than pretty much all the videos representing SD that are online now... imo.

[Judge Pen]

I think it would be awesome if you busted out some mad rhymes during the middle of the kata. I'll bring over my boombox and we'll see the shaolin-do rapper/lawyer white boy in action!!!!

You mean like this guy? http://www.break.com/index/cadilacblaze.html

[Judge Pen]

It's too bad Mr. Mullins doesn't put his videos back up online... they got ragged on a bunch at the time, but it was still better than pretty much all the videos representing SD that are online now... imo.

I was confused there for a second, but you mean Master Garry Mullins.

I'll say this about the videos he had up.... he was wearing a gi. I honestly believe that most of the criticism of his vids wouldn't have been if he was wearing a Chinese outfit or just some work-out pants and a t-shirt.

I also believe that the criticism of my form would be more intense if I was wearing a gi.

[lxtruong]

I was confused there for a second, but you mean Master Garry Mullins.

I'll say this about the videos he had up.... he was wearing a gi. I honestly believe that most of the criticism of his vids wouldn't have been if he was wearing a Chinese outfit or just some work-out pants and a t-shirt.

I also believe that the criticism of my form would be more intense if I was wearing a gi.

Of course, you suck if you wear a gi. I feel my power drop by 1000% when I put on my gi. When I'm in street clothes I can bench a semi, but once I put on my gi, I'm soooo weak.

[Judge Pen]

Of course, you suck if you wear a gi. I feel my power drop by 1000% when I put on my gi. When I'm in street clothes I can bench a semi, but once I put on my gi, I'm soooo weak.

That's why we switched. :p

Seriously, GT talked about doing a form in a gi and then doing the form wearing a t-shirt and work-out pants and posted them both on another forum and the difference in the criticism because of what he was wearing. It's human nature I suppose.

I'd love to know what forum; I've been dying to see GT do his stuff.

[lxtruong]

That's why we switched. :p

Seriously, GT talked about doing a form in a gi and then doing the form wearing a t-shirt and work-out pants and posted them both on another forum and the difference in the criticism because of what he was wearing. It's human nature I suppose.

I'd love to know what forum; I've been dying to see GT do his stuff.

If you saw him doing a form in just a t-shirt and normal pants, the sheer power without the gi to hold him back would probably knock you out of your chair. THROUGH THE INTERNETS.

[TenTigers]

ok, I need to ask this. After seeing the spear vs broadsword set (that girl should not be doing a two person set until she has basic broadsword skills) The drunken sword set-bad figure eights and some stumbling around), the drunken fist set,the double daggar set, and the five animal set-(someone bought Doc Fai-Wong's book and only read the first few pages),
It is obvious that these are not traditional Chinese Martial Arts sets. Are the students encouraged to create their own sets?
Please say yes.

[Golden Tiger]

I've been dying to see GT do his stuff.

No you aren't, trust me on that.:) It would only serve to move SD ****her back in line than it already is.

[lxtruong]

ok, I need to ask this. After seeing the spear vs broadsword set (that girl should not be doing a two person set until she has basic broadsword skills) The drunken sword set-bad figure eights and some stumbling around), the drunken fist set,the double daggar set, and the five animal set-(someone bought Doc Fai-Wong's book and only read the first few pages),
It is obvious that these are not traditional Chinese Martial Arts sets. Are the students encouraged to create their own sets?
Please say yes.

Unless there is another spear-broadsword two man set in our system I don't know about, I think the spear vs. broadsword set was made up. I don't think the broadsword girl was necessarily that bad, although the set seemed unpolished. For demonstration purposes, it's not unheard of to make up two man sets.

The 5-animal form seems to be the same as the one I know, but it's done so dramatically different I think that if you had me on tape and that guy, you wouldn't be able to tell it's the same form.

[Judge Pen]

ok, I need to ask this. After seeing the spear vs broadsword set (that girl should not be doing a two person set until she has basic broadsword skills) The drunken sword set-bad figure eights and some stumbling around), the drunken fist set,the double daggar set, and the five animal set-(someone bought Doc Fai-Wong's book and only read the first few pages),
It is obvious that these are not traditional Chinese Martial Arts sets. Are the students encouraged to create their own sets?
Please say yes.

Like I said, I only know the 5 animal form set. It is done vastly different than I know it (which is the reason why I was going to post me doing it). And it is the same set that DFW does. He learned it from Lau Bun who learned it from his teacher's wife who said it was a shaolin form. Our version (its 85% the same form) came through indonesia. I've compared it to DFW's version.

[Judge Pen]

No you aren't, trust me on that.:) It would only serve to move SD ****her back in line than it already is.

It's not like I'm doing SD any favors either. :p

[The Willow Sword]

i can say that the Kwan Dao form is just as i remember it. Although when i did it i had the heavier combat steel kwan dao with the spear tip at the end. total weight was around 20lbs. makes it hard to show alot of fluidity when you are weilding it around like that. As for seeing all the Soards vids, i met david and sharon once and took a seminar in Albuquerque they were teaching(drunken broadsword i believe) the way the Soards taught out their material was very different from how the SDA teaches out theirs. but even in the ranks and schools of the SDA was there TONS of inconsistancies with forms and such. You would be Taught a certain way to do it , then you go out of town and go to another affiliate school and there you would be corrected on how it was "really supposed to be done". it was aggravating at the time and i just passed it off as "individual flair and individual expression of how they made the form Theirs".

like i have always stated before and afterwards, the forms are a hybrid amalgamation of karate and kung fu. And we all know about the "History":rolleyes:


JP: If you give any creedance to what i have to say to you as advice on that kwan dao form, i would put more physical prowess and, as one poster said, emotional content" you will find that the WILL can move the weapon as heavy as that rather than the "thinking about what moves comes next". You need to OWN your forms, even though they are not yours to begin with.

As always,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

JP: If you give any creedance to what i have to say to you as advice on that kwan dao form, i would put more physical prowess and, as one poster said, emotional content" you will find that the WILL can move the weapon as heavy as that rather than the "thinking about what moves comes next". You need to OWN your forms, even though they are not yours to begin with.

I will say that I take all constructive criticism and work with it. I'd love to see some of the people giving it put some of their own stuff out as an example. I do disagree with only one criticism...I wasn't thinking about the next move. I was rushing a bit as I was nervous. I usually don't do forms in public.

I picked this form because I can do it in my sleep.

[B-Rad]

I'll say this about the videos he had up.... he was wearing a gi. I honestly believe that most of the criticism of his vids wouldn't have been if he was wearing a Chinese outfit or just some work-out pants and a t-shirt.
People might've been a little nicer... I personally think some of my criticism's would've held up, though it's been so long it's hard to say how time and experience might've changed how I would view it.

Anyway, I watched your form and don't have much to add. Like most others have said, the footwork and intent seemed to be the biggest trouble areas. One of my classmate's other teachers, when would judge styles/forms he wasn't familiar with would basically base most of his score off of two things...
1.Stability of footwork
2.He'd also ask himself,"If this guy actually hit me... would it hurt?" ;)
Kudos for putting your vid up though! I would love to put up a vid of myself for critique but don't have a digi cam :(

[hungganyc]

Judges Pen

i give you alot of credit & respect for having the courage to put yourself out there for criticism. It's also obvious that your dedicated to your style and that's very impressive.

i just want to say that there are alot of people out there who believe that their art is traditional CMA. These people shouldn't be blamed unless they know their style isn't. It's obvious that most of them don't know.

You definitely demonstrated athleticism during your weapon form. It's only my opinion that the Kwan Do form you played wasn't authentic/traditional CMA kwan do. i've seen kwan do played by numerous schools and styles from the U.S. to Caton China

no disrepect intended towards you. My comments are more directed others out there.

Hung

[B-Rad]

I don't know about Kwandao or the exact coreography of the form, but I've done a number of those techniques in a Pudao form I began learning several years ago. I've seen all of the techniques, except maybe the funky marching, done in CMA forms before.

[Green Cloud]

Hi hung, I got to say it's obvious that it's not traditional but it's also not karate. I guess we will have to add a division called other.:)

[Green Cloud]

I have to say I really like JP he is a perfect examle of a true Martial Artist. That's hard to come by now a days. I mean no disrespect here but I think JP could do a lot better when it comes to choosing a traditional kung fu system.

[richard sloan]

although I never saw it done quite like that, there is some "marching" in a Shaolin form- I can not remember the name of it, and a variation is in the intro to a basic form...it is actually more like exaggerated stepping and the context is stepping up and over obstacles such as bodies on the ground for better footing...

Saved my ass from the Ministry pit anyway, lol...

[Judge Pen]

although I never saw it done quite like that, there is some "marching" in a Shaolin form- I can not remember the name of it, and a variation is in the intro to a basic form...it is actually more like exaggerated stepping and the context is stepping up and over obstacles such as bodies on the ground for better footing...


That's exactly what I was told the stepping in this form was for when I first learned it.

[Judge Pen]

I have to say I really like JP he is a perfect examle of a true Martial Artist. That's hard to come by now a days. I mean no disrespect here but I think JP could do a lot better when it comes to choosing a traditional kung fu system.


Thanks for the personal compliment. I need to restate something that I've stated on these boards in the past.

When I started martial arts I was 14. I grew up in a very rural area in the Appalachian mountains. There were not a lot of options when it came to martial arts. Trust me when I say that SD was far and away the best training option that was available to me.

When I was 18 my first teacher died in an accident. I had just reached first black. I helped teach his class with another first black. I was starting college and for that reason (and for other personal reasons) I quit training. I concentrated on school. I graduated college and moved to the "big city" (Knoxville Tennessee) for law school. I began training in other arts--mainly aikido and some ground work, but I missed the atleticism and the artistry of CMA and forms work. I started looking around Knoxville. I checked out the local Wah Lum school. It wasn't for me (the vibe was off). I checked other JMA schools. It didn't have the feel that I was missing. I strated training my own stuff.

I then met some former students of Garry Mullins who met regularly to work out. For about a year all I did was condition and fight. It knocked a lot of rust off and taught me that I had limitations and that I could work within them. After that year I discovered that Garry Mullins' oldest son, Mike was teaching in a gym in Knoxville. I went to his class and I have been formally training with him and his father ever since. That was 6 years ago.

I'm not the same martial artist, athletically, that I was when I started. The break really hurt my flexibilty (which hasn't been the same since despite my efforts). But SD is a good art. It teaches me to fight better than I could before (this weekend I'll put the fight clips up). I know the arguments of history lineage etc. I'm also amused to sit back and read the comments on the form itslef (as that's the reason I put it up there--the critique of my personal performance, though welcome, wasn't the intent of posting the form). Some say its traditional others say its not because touching the beard, ride the horse, tightening the helmet etc. isn't present. Others say it's traditional for a certain type of weapon, etc. etc.

I truly believe that SD is CMA that has evolved based upon its quirky lineage that can be traced. I think it has been influenced by other things. I think because of this it does look different than some of the CMA that took root in more urban areas that had other arts CMA around it to compare to. It develped in relative isolation once it made it to the states. It is different, but it is a good martial art.

I have excellent teachers that work hard. I do not doubt thier abilty to intruct of to fight. I have other options now, but my teachers have been very good to me. The art, with all of its quirks, have been very good to me. If you can find that in a school, would you leave because some of the history and lineage is a little quirky?

[hungganyc]

Hey Judges Pen

The shaolin do guys that i've met can fight! Some things have come into question regarding Shaolin Do History & tradition but i gotta give props to the fighters i met.

I had to look the clip you posted a few times to see the weapon itself. From what i can tell, the weapon you used in this form does belong to the Dai Do family of weapons. The form didn't represent Kwan Yu (General Kwan), but it did contain a few BASIC slicing & piercing moves of a Dai Do (Long handled big knife family: Choy yeung do, Dai Hum Do, Kwan Do, Chai Do, etc.) but there are too many points missing to represent General Kwan.

Can you ask who and where this form was adopted or created into your system. Please don't accept "Shaolin". You may be able to answer yours and the critics questions.

Green: It would be interesting to see how this form would be judged at certain east coast traditional kung fu tournaments;) i think you would have to give credit for categories such as athleticism, power, speed, coordination, fighting spirit, accuracy, etc. How can someone accept after years of dedication to a particular style or instructor that the authenticity of their style is questionable?

Hung

[TenTigers]

No, you are correct. If you find a school that trains you, treally trains your skill, as well as personal development, it doesn't matter whether it is a style that is two hundred years old, or two years old. I have trained with teachers from both ends of the spectrum, and it is the quality of the teacher/teachings that truly count.
Om amother note, I want you to know that I was not criticizing, but offering feedback. There is a difference. Like others have mentioned before, there are many variations of these long handled knives. Dai-Doa, or Pu-Doa, are indeed traditional weapons and being different than the Guan-doa, would not have the same "role playing" within the set. I do find the "marching steps" a little funny, but to ne quite honest, I never liked galloping around with the Guan-doa either!
Neither did my teacher, who to this day, cannot do this sequence without a smile on his face!:D

[hungganyc]

Judges Pen

i just wanted to add something. A very wellknown and internationally respected Master once said that "if your style was created in the last 50 years, it's not traditional". I don't think he meant that things recently created are bad. Actually some of the things created recently are very good even though they are usually just variations of things from the past.

My point is that if what you do is effective and benefits you, then who cares what critics say. You have the physical agility that any style would be happy to have you use their style's name. The problem only comes in when things are misrepresented. If i created a style called "Kick Your A$$ Fu" and the techniques and forms make sense and i acknowledge that it isn't traditional,no one will have any problems.

Hung

[Judge Pen]

I took all criticism as constructive. If you can't tell, I have really thick skin so I don't mind any of the comments, suggestions, criticisms etc. It's all good and provides me with a perspective that I can't acquire by myself.

I regret using my little halberd to do this form now as it is supposed to be done with a traditional kwan dao (personal preference to go with a live blade). I'm afraid that the use of the weapon has created controversy. As for the history of this particular form, I don't know it. I know it has been taugth as part of the standard material for several years. I'll ask Master Garry the next time I see him. GT may be able to offer some insight as he's been around a loooong time (much longer than me ;) )

[Green Cloud]

I don't know about you Ten Tigers but we did away with the hi o silver act in our sets.

[Green Cloud]

Not to say I don't show it to my student's, I even make them galop in a circle just for my amusement. But as far as demos go we just strike the pose once and go into onother move from there.

As far as general kwan sroking his beard well that's just cool and give the demonstrator of the weapon time to catch his breath while doing some chi gung breathing while the beard is being stroaked.

It's just knip tuck and it's okay I watched my sifu do that all the time, but then again he knew his stuff.

[Judge Pen]

GC or 10Tigers,

One of you have a link of the Kwan Dao form you guys teach or do. I'd like to compare and see it.

[Green Cloud]

When you watch Kung Fu movies they all are choreagraphed but you will notice that the transitions have a certain order regardless of choreagraphy.

Move that took 2000 years to put together have to look better than something that somebody decided to slap together unless you understand the iner workings of kung fu. Their is a proper flow of movement when it comes to certain stancework in kung fu.

If a choreographer does not take these things into consideration then the form will not only look un traditional but bad.

I'm not really trying to make a point if there is a point:o

[hungganyc]

Hey Green Cloud, i like the galloping part:)

i did it once in Singapore before a huge audience that applauded during that part:D . The older generation that know the story love it!
i have to admit that the way some people do it is hilarious:D

I gotta give props to those Jow Ga guys because they have a really awesome Kwan Do set. i saw one of their guys play it once and he rocked the galloping part.

Hung

[Green Cloud]

GC or 10Tigers,

One of you have a link of the Kwan Dao form you guys teach or do. I'd like to compare and see it.


I'l either post one on my site or send you a vid real soon

[hungganyc]

check out the video links here:http://www.floridakungfu.com/kung_fu_videos.htm

look at their jam ma do links. there are a few. these are clips so you can't see the entire form, but you can get a good idea of the form.

gotta give props to thos choy li fut guys too
Hung

[Judge Pen]

I've got nothing but respect for CLF. I've seen film of Master Dino Salvatera do Kwan Dao before.

[yu shan]

Ditto that JP! John Wai`s school is strong. There two man empty hand sets are weak though, but that is about it.

[godzillakungfu]

Good job stepping up.

Boy, that is why you'll never see me put up a form. I have some of the problems you do.

Everyone is giving good pointers.

[Jules]

I'l either post one on my site or send you a vid real soon

Yeah, I can't wait for you to upload another vid on the site! ^_^

~~J

[CLFNole]

Yeah us CLF guys did away with the "high ho silver". Lee Koon Hung phased it out over the years and I always get a laugh looking at my collection of old videos and people giddy-upping in a circle. The General Kwan playing with the beard is quite cool though.

So many of the southern kwan do sets are similar: CLF, Hung Gar, Jow Gar and Hak Fu Moon.

By the way the 2-man open hand set is the basic one. There is a more advanced one that is quite cool that most don't know.

[shuaichiao]

Just my two cents but the horse riding and beard srtoking stuff belongs to the southern styles. I've learned a couple and seen many more legit northern kwan do forms that don't contain movements.

[TenTigers]

Years ago, when y'all were still in diapers, I saw a guy from Wan Ji-Ming's school do Kuan-doa, and his horse riding section was really nice. I used to get so upset-"How come he doesn't have to gallop around in a circle?":confused: :( :D

[Green Cloud]

buykungfu.com has very good kwan daos for like 40 bucks.

[Green Cloud]

Sorry my bad, I'ts about $175 retail, unless you got a tax ID # than it's half that price. None the less I only buy from these guys ask for Nelson.


greencloud.net

[David Jamieson]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Sorry my bad, I'ts about $175 retail, unless you got a tax ID # than it's half that price. None the less I only buy from these guys ask for Nelson.


greencloud.net

Guy...

using this site to sell stuff elsewhere that can be purchased through this site is, well, a little underhanded.

just saying. mamart has kwan daos from light practice display models, wushu models to why the hell is this so heavy! models. The pricing is reasonable. Ask for Margie, tell her we all sent you.

http://www.martialartsmart.com

[Green Cloud]

David J. I'm sure I don't know what you mean. I don't own Bei Jing imports I'm not advertising anything but just giving a good refferal. They also advertise with Kungfu Tai Chi Magazine. Underhanded??:confused:

Please explain what you mean, and If I was advertising my own products so what.

[MasterKiller]

Kung Lek is just wearing his bossy panties lately. I think he forgot he's not a moderator anymore.

[David Jamieson]

just pointing it out. *sticks tongue out at you*

[Green Cloud]

What are you pointing out:confused:

[David Jamieson]

What are you pointing out:confused:

what i observed.

[PangQuan]

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=53833

couldnt help my self. sry.

[Golden Tiger]

9th, JP vid mail:D

[Judge Pen]

9th, JP vid mail:D


Thanks GT. Always nice to get a gift by e-mail. :D

[Leto]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=65

5 animal form is the other form I did at the tournament. Frankly, I thought my performance was bad (much worse than the kwan dao ), but I think it was better than this guys' performance (no offense to the CSC people--just telling it as it is). I'll post that portion of my form for comparison.

At the demonstrations like that, the masters tell everyone to abridge the forms in some way, especially the longer ones. That's not the way the five animal form was taught. I learned it, too, I was at some of the same classes as Steve "that guy".

The five animal form is one of my favorites, and one that I have chosen to pursue and really take apart. Do any of you long time SD guys remember when that first came n to the curriculum, and was it taught the same then as it is now?

[Golden Tiger]

Do any of you long time SD guys remember when that first came n to the curriculum, and was it taught the same then as it is now?


Yes and yes....

[PangQuan]

my roomate/elder kung fu bro has a wicked kwan dao form.

his hand is a little messed up atm from fighting but ill see if we can find a vid came and see if he will post when healed.

good power, speed, offensive defense, etc.

has the customary beard swipe, whiping the blood of the blade etc.

ill be learning it sometime soon, but he has a good couple years on it. so ill check with him.

[humbleman]

humbleman are you trying to make a point?? or are you a poet and I don't know it??:p
Once in a lifetime/a light shines so bright/so pure.../that darkness is defeated in its presence./Once in a lifetime/will an individual,/beyond all odds/rise to meet the challenge./Once in a lifetime/will we be given the opportunity/to honor them./Let it not pass us by.../Let us shine brightly.../if but once in a lifetime. - this was on a site published by Ronald E. Owens, M.A.C.V.-S.O.G. C.C.N.- 1968-1969 + K.K.P. I hope he doesn't mind my borrowing it- sounds like a perfectly fitting tribute to Sensei Brian, Shaolin-Do:D

[SanHeChuan]

Here is a vid of a NON-SD chick using a quan dao, really not so dissimilar to Judge Pen http://www.nacma.net/demo/Shaolintournyvideos/GuanDaoGirl.wmvOnly she was performing the form and he was just zombie-ing through it.

Judge at the beginning where you sweep back you don't have to go so low if your flexibility won't allow it. Just take a higher stance, instead of trying to duck under your opponents swing. It also looked like you were leaning forward too much (Instead of over your leg)when you were trying to get low. Oh and your hand is suppose to come up to block the head not fly out like that.

Also it looked like you were just swinging a staff rather that wilding a blade, so some times your cuts weren't straight. And your strikes were sloppy.

but what do I know...Oh and thanxs for putting up your vid. :p

Some hybrid art guy tried to do a quan dao form here with a bunch of useless fancy swinging, the blade broke off. :rolleyes: I kind of want to show these Karate guys what a real (SD) quan dao form is about, But I just bought a $50 STEEL staff. Do I finally invest in a quan dao or not...?

[Green Cloud]

Nice quote.

[MasterKiller]

It's easy to look good when your Kwan Dao weights 3 lbs. :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

It also looked like you were leaning forward too much (Instead of over your leg)when you were trying to get low. Oh and your hand is suppose to come up to block the head not fly out like that.

SHC, thanks for sharing the link to that set. And since you were asking about that particular technique. . . .

I was leaning forward. I was taught that you leaned forward to allow the weight of the kwan dao to roll under the arm and the butt end to rest on the shoulder while the blade does a vertical cut up. And I was taught for the hand to strike out as a sort of counter-balance to the weapon so, in an ideal world with a good performer of the set, the kwan dao and the hand on in a straight line parallel with the floor.

While I certainly lack that certain something on performance, I don't think I was necessarily "zombie-ing" through it, but hey, I never professed to be a good forms person. Maybe I can make that a niche: Zombie Kwan dao.

But you're right, my cuts were sloppy at times. I chalk it up to nerves on top of an average forms person (at best). The point was to show one of the older SD forms and demonstrate that the way I was originally taught showed CMA technique rather than JMA.

[Golden Tiger]

It's easy to look good when your Kwan Dao weights 3 lbs. :rolleyes:


I wasn't gonna say it but figured someone would. And of course I realize that she was using it for a demo but the blade would sag even when she wasn't moving. Nice performance though.

JP, mail if you haven't already checked. circa 1990

[Judge Pen]

Thanks GT.

[lxtruong]

It's easy to look good when your Kwan Dao weights 3 lbs. :rolleyes:

I would love to see that form done with a heavier kwan dao. Even something like 8lbs. The one handed moves, and the one where she flipped it, hilarity would ensue. Whew!

[Judge Pen]

I don't know about that, but it would have had a different dynamic about it. I thought it was a nice form. She had great focus and excellent footwork. She's prettier than me too.

[PangQuan]

some what similar to our kwan dao form. yet that one is much shorter.

id like to see someone wield a dao that is weighs as much as the supposed original 80 or 90 lbs.

[Vash]

****, that San Jian form suxord . . .

:D

Seriously though, looks much better than my weapons forms. Good work.

[godzillakungfu]

some what similar to our kwan dao form. yet that one is much shorter.

id like to see someone wield a dao that is weighs as much as the supposed original 80 or 90 lbs.
We had some that were close to 15lbs. The whole dynamic of the form changed. It was kind of funny watching someone use it for testing instead of training.

I was the nice guy and would say use a lighter one. No to proud until, they nicked the wall ot cut the carpet. Which, eventually gave birth to parking lot training at my old school.

[ironmantis3]

I personally thought JP's form was kinda cool. I like how it repeated some things in every direction. As far as the form goes, I don't see anything that would make it not a CMA kuen, I know that was one debate. All the techs are in pretty much any of the chinese heavy polearm type weapon kuen that I know of. There is a couple things which I noticed about his kuen that differenciate it from all the Guan Dao kuen I have seen, but I only been doing kung fu for about 7 years and the past 3 have been in Japan w/o teacher so I'm a noob, especially with guan dao.

The only thing I noticed was that it didn't really have much for use of the spike end of the weapon. There was the sequence that you had the 4-6 thrusts alternating between blade and spike ends but that was all I saw. From the guan dao kuen I have seen in past there is more with the spike. For example stabbing down as to attack the foot or leg then changing swing to cut down the now immobile enemy. Things like that.

The other thing was that most guan dao kuen I have witnessed have had some sort of tech utilizing the serrated sorta spike back side of the blade in a jam or disarm of some sort. You kuen had some sweeping clear type motions but it didn't from what I could see utilize the unique back edge of the guan dao.

Like I said though I'm a noob so I might just not know what I'm talking about. I think it had some cool moves in JP's kuen though. I see no reason it is not CMA. Also maybe it was or was not originally intended for Guan Dao, I know that was another thing mentioned. I know all those techs are in my 9-rings long sword form. Originally doesn't really matter because it seems that traditionally practitioners often interchange the heavy bladed pole weapons in kuen. Like using a 9-rings long sword, guan dao, spring/autumn sword interchangebly on forms for any of those weapons. I know I have done that myself with that and also spear/staff etc.

As to the 80 lbs guan dao, I don't think you could effectively employ that type of weapon with techs outlined in kuen. If you think about it, the weapon wasn't originally designed for ground combat. If it was really that heavy it would have most likely been used from horse back. The weight combined with a sharp point would allow it to be used like a lance (thing European jousters) against cavalry. Additionally the long heavy curved blade would have made it very suited to slashing type cuts against infantry while riding past. The weilder wouldn't even really have to swing the blade, more like hang it out there and use the horse to ride through cutting guys down. So its like a really good hybrid weapon. But at that weight you would be cut down in a ground fight, especially if you ganged up on the wielder. A sword at close range would have been a likely victor in a seasoned hand. A spear would just be too fast and still doesn't suffer the range disadvantage. Which is explains why we have these much lighter variations now days of the guan dao.

[humbleman]

Hey! Someone give the thread C.P.R.!! Quckly!!!!:eek:

[wdl]

JP,

So where's the fight vid? :)

I'm still waiting on Hedgehodgey's video over on bullsh*to. hahaha

-Will

[wdl]

I thought dude's double daggers left a WHOLE lot to be desired.

-Will

[onyomi]

I don't care about the gis so much as the fact that CMA should be done with SHOES ON. Many of its moves are specifically designed to take advantage of this, such as the Praying Mantis pian-tui, in which you press your foot facing to the side down alongside the opponent's shin. If you're wearing shoes it can rip the skin. If you're barefoot you'll just slide down their shin and potentially injure yourself.

Also, besides being a complete mockery of Zui-quan, the girl doing the Drunken Jian form is using the Jian more like a Dao than anything else. Obviously hasn't the slightest clue how a jian would be used in actual combat.

[Golden Tiger]

I don't care about the gis so much as the fact that CMA should be done with SHOES ON.


Dear gawd....now SD sucks because we don't wear shoes.... You have to realize that it was introduced in Kentucky and most people don't wear shoes at all, let alone to some fighting.


you press your foot facing to the side down alongside the opponent's shin. If you're wearing shoes it can rip the skin.

Most of us do iron shin training. All that would do is wear out the side of your shiny new Keds.....


And while I am here, Willow, you posted you usual whiney, bull S#&t on another thread. Then you stated that you are 35 years old. Are you really? Come on, 35? I would have pegged you in your low 20's tops.


Sorry everyone, just a little pi$$y this morning, haven't had my coffee yet.

[Judge Pen]

Sorry everyone, just a little pi$$y this morning, haven't had my coffee yet.

Drink some coffee. Send JP more videos. It will be a good day.

[onyomi]

What is it Sin Te is supposed to be doing in that video? Please tell me it's not Praying Mantis.... please...

[Judge Pen]

What is it Sin Te is supposed to be doing in that video? Please tell me it's not Praying Mantis.... please...
If its the CSC video that I'm thinking of then no he's not doing mantis (at least none that I've seen in SD or beyond). He has a mantis claw etc., but I think the technical term is he's just goofing off and playing around for the camera.

[tattooedmonk]

I studied at the chinese shaolin center in los angeles for 15 years (I am no longer affiliated and still practice all my material, 100+ forms ,and condtioning) I have read a great deal of the crap that is spewed out by the uninformed.... many of you have never joined or participated in any S.D. seminars, classes, and/or activities ...if you did then you would have a completely different view of the topics in which you discuss... this has been said a thousand ,if not a million, times that the traditions and the uniform are different than what most consider to be "traditional shaolin garb" I say BullSH**...look at the Shaolin monks ...yeah it maybe orange but without the shoes and the leg ties it is a GI...where the hell does everyone think that Karate came from anyway?? CHINA !!! this would explain why the japanese Gi looks like the Shaolin garb........ if you know the story you know how we came to using it ...what is the difference anyway???..and by the way GMT practices with shoes on...if you do not understand or follow the reasons why we have more japanese outward appearences then you are just an idiot...as for the way the forms are done ...Sh**...they are done without fluidity.... but the forms themselves are purely chinese in origin...I understand that most of the people viewing this art are too judgemental, ( extra emphasis on the mental), and because what you have seen does not resemble what you know or practice you think that it must be Bullshido... not to mention the number it does on your ego...or else you would not state the senseless Bull Sh** that you do!!...well I invite anyone who lives in the L.A. area or not to contact me for instruction , conversation, or ....? I have many forms on tape( mostly of me doing them).... and when I transfer them to vcd or dvd I will be more than happy to send out some copies of them( not in there entirety) so when you want to talk sh** you better know what you are talking about or keep your mouth shut.....or someone might come along and show you where you are wrong ...and shut you up!!

[Judge Pen]

I studied at the chinese shaolin center in los angeles for 15 years (I am no longer affiliated and still practice all my material, 100+ forms ,and condtioning) I have read a great deal of the crap that is spewed out by the uninformed.... many of you have never joined or participated in any S.D. seminars, classes, and/or activities so shut the F**k Up!!...if you did then you would have a completely different view of the topics in which you discuss...first off this has been said a thousand ,if not a million, times that the traditions and the uniform are different than what most consider to be "traditional shaolin garb" I say BullSH**...look at the Shaolin monks ...yeah it maybe orange but without the shoes and the leg ties it is a F**King GI...where the hell does everyone think that Karate came from anyway?? CHINA !!! this would explain why the japanese Gi looks like the Shaolin garb........ if you know the story you know how we came to using it ...what is the difference anyway???..and by the way GMT practices with shoes on...if you do not understand or follow the reasons why we have more japanese outward appearences then you are just a f**king idiot...as for the way the forms are done ...Sh**...they are done without fluidity.... but the forms themselves are purely chinese in origin...I understand that most of the people viewing this art are too judgemental, ( extra emphasis on the mental), and because what you have seen does not resemble what you know or practice you think that it must be Bullshido... not to mention the number it does on your ego...or else you would not state the senseless Bull Sh** that you do!!...well I invite anyone who lives in the L.A. area or not to contact me for instruction , conversation, or ....? I have many forms on tape( mostly of me doing them).... and when I transfer them to vcd or dvd I will be more than happy to send out some copies of them( not in there entirety) so when you want to talk sh** you better know what the F**K you are talking about or keep your mouth shut.....or someone might come along and show you where you are wrong ...and shut you the F**k up!!

Seriously, what's a tirade like this going to accomplish? :rolleyes: "Oh, ok, you're right and I'm wrong." Just let it go and don't get so angry. There are people here that are just looking for this type of emotion. As the saying goes, "don't feed the trolls"

[tattooedmonk]

Seriously, what's a tirade like this going to accomplish? :rolleyes: "Oh, ok, you're right and I'm wrong." Just let it go and don't get so angry. There are people here that are just looking for this type of emotion. As the saying goes, "don't feed the trolls" First off... I am an american so I can say what I want ...when I want.... a far as what it accomplishes..well it has gotten you to respond for no apparent reason...and it makes me feel good .... actually I am not angry .....why are you coming to that conclusion? just because I am passionate about this does not mean that I am angry...you should not assume anything...and as far a what people are looking for...they should be looking for the truth and not for non intrinsic bullsh** to focus there attention on...if it feeds the trolls then it does but that is not my intention ...

[onyomi]

I studied at the chinese shaolin center in los angeles for 15 years (I am no longer affiliated and still practice all my material, 100+ forms ,and condtioning) I have read a great deal of the crap that is spewed out by the uninformed.... many of you have never joined or participated in any S.D. seminars, classes, and/or activities so shut the F**k Up!!...if you did then you would have a completely different view of the topics in which you discuss...first off this has been said a thousand ,if not a million, times that the traditions and the uniform are different than what most consider to be "traditional shaolin garb" I say BullSH**...look at the Shaolin monks ...yeah it maybe orange but without the shoes and the leg ties it is a F**King GI...where the hell does everyone think that Karate came from anyway?? CHINA !!! this would explain why the japanese Gi looks like the Shaolin garb........ if you know the story you know how we came to using it ...what is the difference anyway???..and by the way GMT practices with shoes on...if you do not understand or follow the reasons why we have more japanese outward appearences then you are just a f**king idiot...as for the way the forms are done ...Sh**...they are done without fluidity.... but the forms themselves are purely chinese in origin...I understand that most of the people viewing this art are too judgemental, ( extra emphasis on the mental), and because what you have seen does not resemble what you know or practice you think that it must be Bullshido... not to mention the number it does on your ego...or else you would not state the senseless Bull Sh** that you do!!...well I invite anyone who lives in the L.A. area or not to contact me for instruction , conversation, or ....? I have many forms on tape( mostly of me doing them).... and when I transfer them to vcd or dvd I will be more than happy to send out some copies of them( not in there entirety) so when you want to talk sh** you better know what the F**K you are talking about or keep your mouth shut.....or someone might come along and show you where you are wrong ...and shut you the F**k up!!


HAHAHAHAHAHA! A little touchy are we?

Why don't you come show me where I'm wrong? The thing is, I actually DO know a pretty good amount about a number of the CMAs Shaolin-do claims to teach, having studied with traditional teachers in Taiwan for years, and I'm here to tell you it's all a huge scam. The whole lineage is obviously completely fake. He just learned a bit here and there from movies, videos, books, etc.

The forms, such as the jian or the mantis I've seen aren't poor in the sense that the person needs more practice or that they're kind of sloppy. Rather, the instruction is clearly flawed to begin with. The jian is simply not used in that way AT ALL. No traditional teacher would tell you to use it that way, whether they do a traditional style or even modern Wushu.

Second, I know a thing or two about Mantis, and I don't care whether Sin is fooling around or what, but the way he's using the mantis hand reflects a total lack of undertanding in regards to how it is actually used. It is NEVER just held rigidly like that while the arms swing around. The fingers always move in the application of gou, diao, ding or any of the other applications of the signature mantis hand. For someone to use it like that even in a brief, casual demonstration, shows that their knowledge of Mantis can only come from sources like books and movies.

Then there's the whole issue of intellectual honesty, which I'm a bit of a stickler about for some reason...

I don't like to be hyper-critical when I know there are probably lots of perfectly nice, decent people who put lots of effort into Shaolin-do and get decent benefits. The problem is the whole thing is based on a scam, taking advantage of the fact that most westerners don't know what real CMA is supposed to be like. I guarantee you if you go to Taiwan or Hong Kong and find a traditional master of any of the styles Shaolin-do claims to teach and then get him to give you his honest opinion of any SD video clip of said style, he will tell you it is fake. (Note, you'd probably have to do it in a discrete manner, perhaps without telling said teacher that you practice SD, as most Chinese will not tell you to your face they think what you're doing is fake, for fear of causing a loss of face.)

I also just don't understand the people who are like "yeah, Sin probably made up some of his history, but so what? He can fight. I can learn to fight from him. It's fun. What's the big deal?"

The big deal is intellectual honesty. We don't tolerate people putting fake jobs and credentials on their resume when looking for an employee and will fire them immediately for such an infraction. Why should we tolerate MA teachers fabricating their lineages and history?

[tattooedmonk]

HAHAHAHAHAHA! A little touchy are we?

Why don't you come show me where I'm wrong? The thing is, I actually DO know a pretty good amount about a number of the CMAs Shaolin-do claims to teach, having studied with traditional teachers in Taiwan for years, and I'm here to tell you it's all a huge scam. The whole lineage is obviously completely fake. He just learned a bit here and there from movies, videos, books, etc.

The forms, such as the jian or the mantis I've seen aren't poor in the sense that the person needs more practice or that they're kind of sloppy. Rather, the instruction is clearly flawed to begin with. The jian is simply not used in that way AT ALL. No traditional teacher would tell you to use it that way, whether they do a traditional style or even modern Wushu.

Second, I know a thing or two about Mantis, and I don't care whether Sin is fooling around or what, but the way he's using the mantis hand reflects a total lack of undertanding in regards to how it is actually used. It is NEVER just held rigidly like that while the arms swing around. The fingers always move in the application of gou, diao, ding or any of the other applications of the signature mantis hand. For someone to use it like that even in a brief, casual demonstration, shows that their knowledge of Mantis can only come from sources like books and movies.

Then there's the whole issue of intellectual honesty, which I'm a bit of a stickler about for some reason...

I don't like to be hyper-critical when I know there are probably lots of perfectly nice, decent people who put lots of effort into Shaolin-do and get decent benefits. The problem is the whole thing is based on a scam, taking advantage of the fact that most westerners don't know what real CMA is supposed to be like. I guarantee you if you go to Taiwan or Hong Kong and find a traditional master of any of the styles Shaolin-do claims to teach and then get him to give you his honest opinion of any SD video clip of said style, he will tell you it is fake. (Note, you'd probably have to do it in a discrete manner, perhaps without telling said teacher that you practice SD, as most Chinese will not tell you to your face they think what you're doing is fake, for fear of causing a loss of face.)

I also just don't understand the people who are like "yeah, Sin probably made up some of his history, but so what? He can fight. I can learn to fight from him. It's fun. What's the big deal?"

The big deal is intellectual honesty. We don't tolerate people putting fake jobs and credentials on their resume when looking for an employee and will fire them immediately for such an infraction. Why should we tolerate MA teachers fabricating their lineages and history? Did I quote you before? Why did you take this as a personal attack? This was sent out as a general post ...period! If anyone takes it any other way than the way it went out then that is on them and now it is on you!! Sounds like you are the one who is touchy.. as for the lineage and history ...it is unique to say the least... but I would like to see anyone say to my face ,or anyone elses in the art, that it is fake no chinese master of the arts is going to deny that they are chinese in origin but they will question the way that they are performed...I did not say that there is not any creative licencing, all martial arts schools do this..... but to say that Sin The' is a liar is just stupid ......I have known him for over 13 years and would say that he is anything but a liar... and as far as I am concerned you are crossing the line here....yeah maybe there is no one around to prove these claims besides sin the' and his brother...which makes it difficult to prove ...but this does not mean that the art is made up , fake, and/or that the Grandmaster is a liar ....and as far as the way a student performs a jian set and it looking like a dao set...... is just judgmental and stupid...could it be that this person did not learn the proper way to use the jian yet?? the forms are done very much like japanese forms but that does not mean that they are not chinese in origin...what part of that is hard to understand???? as for the bit about the mantis...I did not see the video you are talking about but if you could send me the link I will check it out you are use to a different style ( obviously very soft style) of chinese martialarts where as we do a more hard style.... wavying your fingers around is great for performance art...... but sucks for application...

[onyomi]

I did not see the video you are talking about but if you could send me the link I will check it out you are use to a different style ( obviously very soft style) of chinese martialarts where as we do a more hard style.... wavying your fingers around is great for performance art...... but sucks for application...

Nope, my lineage is 7*, the "hardest" of the Mantis lineages. Our hands and arms can be rock solid, but that doesn't mean we don't use the fingers individually... in fact, nimble usage of the fingers is one of the cornerstones of Mantis, one of its trademarks. Fingers can be used to pull nails out of boards! They shouldn't be relegated to being squeezed together in a lump like that. The way Sin was using the mantis hand, he'd have been better off using a fist! By pulling fingers in individually, (often sequentially from pinky down to thumb), we greatly increase the strength and nimbleness of our hands, increasing the ability to grab, trap, lock, dig in to pressure points, etc. that are the whole point of the mantis hand!

[lxtruong]

Ahh!! My eyes, they burn. Too much of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

But alas, not enough of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

I think everyone could get good use out of reading this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization

[tattooedmonk]

Nope, my lineage is 7*, the "hardest" of the Mantis lineages. Our hands and arms can be rock solid, but that doesn't mean we don't use the fingers individually... in fact, nimble usage of the fingers is one of the cornerstones of Mantis, one of its trademarks. Fingers can be used to pull nails out of boards! They shouldn't be relegated to being squeezed together in a lump like that. The way Sin was using the mantis hand, he'd have been better off using a fist! By pulling fingers in individually, (often sequentially from pinky down to thumb), we greatly increase the strength and nimbleness of our hands, increasing the ability to grab, trap, lock, dig in to pressure points, etc. that are the whole point of the mantis hand! mantis fingers can be used grouping them together or seperatly depending on how you want to apply them... I understand all the usages and trademarks of mantis I practice many mantis forms .... you still did not provide me with the link or the video ....so I do not have anything to refer to...

[tattooedmonk]

Ahh!! My eyes, they burn. Too much of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

But alas, not enough of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

I think everyone could get good use out of reading this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalizationwhy does this matter ??it is not like we are being graded on it ( except obviously by you ) ...it is more like a conversation then a letter or anything formal.... so get involved or back the f**k up!! go join the grammar and punctuation group if this is what you want to do...

[onyomi]

http://www.shao-lin.com/video/mastersin.wmv

So which Mantis forms do you know? You wouldn't happen to have a video of one?

So in which mantis move do you keep the fingers pinched together and then use them as a unit like that? He looks like his trying to draw in the air with and imaginary pencil.

[Radhnoti]

tattooedmonk - "...yeah maybe there is no one around to prove these claims besides sin the' and his brother..."

My understanding is that Sin's brother DOES say he's not telling the truth...
He claims that Ie Chang Ming was his (and Sin's) maternal grandfather, a highly disputed statement in Sin's camp. He claims that Sin misquotes the date of Ie's death to grant himself more theoretical study time under Ie. He claims Sin never received 900+ forms, stating that he (Hiang) studied longer in Indonesia under all the masters and he never got (if I remember right) over 300. To be fair, Sin's camp states that Hiang has reason to claim these things since he's declared HIMSELF the grandmaster and heir to the system taught to the brothers.

Finally, no other art that claims southern shaolin lineage even mentions Su. Both Hiang and Sin state plainly in their histories that he "became the head of the martial arts program" or "grandmaster"...and NO ONE ELSE ever heard of this relatively recent, important and UNIQUE martial figure?
These and a few other questions peck away at the credibility of SD's slant on the HISTORY of their art, in my opinion.

To be clear, I like Sin The'. I enjoyed shaolin-do and think it was time well spent. Lots of Chinese martial arts have history problems if you go back far enough...divinely touched hermits that wander down from the mountains just to teach a martial art then disappear...famous generals from ancient Chinese history...movie stars who may or may NOT have thought FMA's were all that great...even animals and immortals...it all seems nebulous at one point or another.
Martial arts change so much from decade to decade, it's amazing to me that anyone can be so positive their doing it the "original" or "right" way. Who's to say what the communist influence has been on Chinese martial arts that remained in China? Who's to say that an art that passes through Indonesia remained "pure"? Can anyone who learns martial arts in modern society really say they train the way an art was trained 100 years ago? Or even that their own teachers (training after the introduction of the firearm) learned in the same way with the same intensity?
Ah yes, late night speculation and rambling...my specialty. :D I'll spare you all the other paragraphs I had in mind.

[lxtruong]

why does this matter ??it is not like we are being graded on it ( except obviously by you ) ...it is more like a conversation then a letter or anything formal.... so get involved or back the f**k up!! go join the grammar and punctuation group if this is what you want to do...

Testy, aren't we? I sure hope that you're not that antagonistic towards everyone, especially in class. Especially when people are joking around. But perhaps it's just another example of http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19.

But let me tell you....(in my opinion), if you want your writings to be taken seriously then you use "big boy" writing constructs. Nothing ruins your own credibility than writing like a 15 year old on IM. Now there is a time and a place for informal writing, don't get me wrong. But there is a difference between sending a text message to your buddy and trying to make a cohesive arguement. Myself, I gave up a while ago trying to argue on behalf of shaolin-do on this board. People are obviously not going to listen. It's like trying to go on a Republican message board and aruge that Bill Clinton isn't all that bad. Or the other way around with Bush.

[Golden Tiger]

To be fair, Sin's camp states that Hiang has reason to claim these things since he's declared HIMSELF the grandmaster and heir to the system taught to the brothers.

Not that anyone really cares or that it will make a bit of difference but I would like to respond....

I have known both brothers (and met various relatives of both) for a LONG time. Back in the day, I actually liked Hiang's teaching style better because I was younger and could take it. If I were to pass him on the street, we would probably stop, exchange pleasantries, and move on. What I am saying is I know him (and his wife and one of his childern)very well. At no time in all the years that I trained with him did the "grandfather" story come up. NEVER. And we talked about M. Ie many times and his training style. So where and why that story came out, I have no idea. It just sorta popped up on his website one day. About that time, M. Sin was asked about it. He just shook his head and said he didn't know why Hiang was claiming it. Also about that time, THEIR niece was taking classes so I asked her what she thought about the claim. She point blank said that she had no idea what he was talking about.

Plus, since Ie was supposed to be such a great MAist, one would think that M. Sin would have been proud of the fact that he came from that blood line...It just doesn't make sense.

Then theres the death debate. I can still remember exactly how M. Sin learned of the death. M. Hiang returned from Indo. with the news (and didn't even tell M. Sin personally). Now if M. Ie had been the grandfather, I would have to think that M. Sin would have known instantly since he is in constant contact with his family.

But I think the most amazing part of all this is that we sit here and debate and fight about which is right and which is wrong but the two brothers, while no longer close, are quite cordial when they happen to meet. A smile, a handshake, a simple exchange and a goodbye. No accusations, no bloodshed, nothing news worthy. Perhaps we could learn from them......

[Judge Pen]

First off... I am an american so I can say what I want ...when I want.... a far as what it accomplishes..well it has gotten you to respond for no apparent reason...and it makes me feel good .... actually I am not angry .....why are you coming to that conclusion? just because I am passionate about this does not mean that I am angry...you should not assume anything...and as far a what people are looking for...they should be looking for the truth and not for non intrinsic bullsh** to focus there attention on...if it feeds the trolls then it does but that is not my intention ...

Sure you can say what you want, but I actually care about people discussing SD in a semi-cordial manner. Even if you aren't mad, dropping f-bombs and telling people to STFU is just rude and immature. Sure you can argue that they have insulted your teacher and they are rude, etc., but if that's the case then why not be the bigger person.

As for why I responded, well (1) I care about SD and people's perception and (2) this thread is about my video. I ponied up and put me doing an SD video on the web for criticism not because I'm a great forms person (I'm not) but so people could judge a traditional SD form and its techniques. Is it CMA or JMA or both.

I hope you do put your own forms up here for people to judge. I think more information is better than less. I also hope that you're better than me so you make SD look good.

[Judge Pen]

HAHAHAHAHAHA! A little touchy are we?

Why don't you come show me where I'm wrong? The thing is, I actually DO know a pretty good amount about a number of the CMAs Shaolin-do claims to teach, having studied with traditional teachers in Taiwan for years, and I'm here to tell you it's all a huge scam. The whole lineage is obviously completely fake. He just learned a bit here and there from movies, videos, books, etc.

The forms, such as the jian or the mantis I've seen aren't poor in the sense that the person needs more practice or that they're kind of sloppy. Rather, the instruction is clearly flawed to begin with. The jian is simply not used in that way AT ALL. No traditional teacher would tell you to use it that way, whether they do a traditional style or even modern Wushu.

Second, I know a thing or two about Mantis, and I don't care whether Sin is fooling around or what, but the way he's using the mantis hand reflects a total lack of undertanding in regards to how it is actually used. It is NEVER just held rigidly like that while the arms swing around. The fingers always move in the application of gou, diao, ding or any of the other applications of the signature mantis hand. For someone to use it like that even in a brief, casual demonstration, shows that their knowledge of Mantis can only come from sources like books and movies.

Then there's the whole issue of intellectual honesty, which I'm a bit of a stickler about for some reason...

I don't like to be hyper-critical when I know there are probably lots of perfectly nice, decent people who put lots of effort into Shaolin-do and get decent benefits. The problem is the whole thing is based on a scam, taking advantage of the fact that most westerners don't know what real CMA is supposed to be like. I guarantee you if you go to Taiwan or Hong Kong and find a traditional master of any of the styles Shaolin-do claims to teach and then get him to give you his honest opinion of any SD video clip of said style, he will tell you it is fake. (Note, you'd probably have to do it in a discrete manner, perhaps without telling said teacher that you practice SD, as most Chinese will not tell you to your face they think what you're doing is fake, for fear of causing a loss of face.)

I also just don't understand the people who are like "yeah, Sin probably made up some of his history, but so what? He can fight. I can learn to fight from him. It's fun. What's the big deal?"

The big deal is intellectual honesty. We don't tolerate people putting fake jobs and credentials on their resume when looking for an employee and will fire them immediately for such an infraction. Why should we tolerate MA teachers fabricating their lineages and history?

onyomi, you may be legitimate or you may just be a paper tiger; an internet master. How am I to know the difference? Am I just supposed to take your word that you know your stuff? That your sifus are legitimate? Again, they (and you) could be (so I mean no disrespect). Show us your forms and your jian. If you are a master of the jian to the point that you can authoritatively say that NO ONE would use a jian that way, then I'd like to see your technique. My understanding of the form you were critiquing is that it was the drunken jian form (don't have it personally but I've seen it myself). Do you know any drunken jian techniques. Drunken forms are unorthodox by nature--so who are you to say that you KNOW that its wrong unless you have mastered that weapon in that style.

As for intellectual honesty, I hear your arguments. If I'm happy with the style and can apply it, then its good enough for me (even if it isn't good enough for you). I find value in its techniques and martial intent even if you don't. Thus, to me its not a scam--its valuable. So I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. I am curious to see your material.

Oh, one more thing about SD's manits. I know little of it. I did take a seminar from a mei hua mantis teacher a couple of years ago (Bai Yuan Tou Tao). I then saw a video of Master Sin The doing the same form. There were differences in the form, but it was 85 to 90% the same. I've since had the opportunity to compare this to other versions of Bai Yuan Tou Tao form other lineages. They were all very similar, but with their own distinct differences. The point is that SD's version isn't any more right or wrong then the other versions--its just slightly different. The world of mantis is a big place.

[ninthdrunk]

Just dropping in to say hello to all the SDers out there. Hope y'all are having a blast, and good training over the summer months.


GT - thanks for all the info lately. Looking forward to more!

LX - hope all the travelling you've done (and doing) turns out great. Hopefully I'll see you in August or September. Oh, I agree with the grammar comments. I thougth the links were pretty dang appropriate, not to mention funny given the situation.

[onyomi]

onyomi, you may be legitimate or you may just be a paper tiger; an internet master. How am I to know the difference? Am I just supposed to take your word that you know your stuff? That your sifus are legitimate? Again, they (and you) could be (so I mean no disrespect). Show us your forms and your jian. If you are a master of the jian to the point that you can authoritatively say that NO ONE would use a jian that way, then I'd like to see your technique. My understanding of the form you were critiquing is that it was the drunken jian form (don't have it personally but I've seen it myself). Do you know any drunken jian techniques. Drunken forms are unorthodox by nature--so who are you to say that you KNOW that its wrong unless you have mastered that weapon in that style.

As for intellectual honesty, I hear your arguments. If I'm happy with the style and can apply it, then its good enough for me (even if it isn't good enough for you). I find value in its techniques and martial intent even if you don't. Thus, to me its not a scam--its valuable. So I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. I am curious to see your material.

Oh, one more thing about SD's manits. I know little of it. I did take a seminar from a mei hua mantis teacher a couple of years ago (Bai Yuan Tou Tao). I then saw a video of Master Sin The doing the same form. There were differences in the form, but it was 85 to 90% the same. I've since had the opportunity to compare this to other versions of Bai Yuan Tou Tao form other lineages. They were all very similar, but with their own distinct differences. The point is that SD's version isn't any more right or wrong then the other versions--its just slightly different. The world of mantis is a big place.

That's the problem with Shaolin-do forms. They're all basically the same forms as you can find in books and on videos, but clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding of their respective systems. Sin may know some Mantis forms in terms of the basic movements, but he clearly doesn't understand the finer points of how to actually use Mantis. The way he uses the Mantis hand reveals that. I'd almost be willing to accept SD forms if they were totally different and marketed as an Indonesian-Chinese blend of some kind. However, that's clearly not what happened. What happened is Sin took famous forms from all kinds of systems, learned them in a perfunctory manner without understanding the deeper principles of how those systems work and then started teaching those forms to others, some of whom have done pretty well, considering.

I've studied a bit of drunken style before, and I can tell you that the drunken style I'm seeing here is just an imitation of drunken style without an understanding of the concepts behind it. I haven't studied drunken jian specifically, but I have studied jian, and I can tell you that you CAN'T use it like a dao. It's a completely different weapon. Only the third toward the tip of the jian is even sharp. It's not a hacking weapon like the dao. I don't have any videos of myself, but I do have a couple of my teacher to show some idea what I'm talking about.

Here's my teacher doing San-cai Jian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-16-cfdThY

And here's my teacher doing Yanqing Single Dao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEMirBgcC0A

[MasterKiller]

Here's my teacher doing San-cai Jian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-16-cfdThY

That's a sweet form.

[Judge Pen]

Both of them are nice forms. I am impressed with your teacher's form.

As for the CMA/IMA mix, I've always been very upfront with my belief that this is exactly what SD is. In fact, I believe that it is CMA/IMA/KMA (Kentucky kung-fu) and that it has evolved into ints own animal. As far as Sin learning famous forms, etc. I think he learned them in Indonesia from his teachers. I do think that they've been altered even further by us Americans.

[B-Rad]

Very cool forms :cool: They really do a great job of showing the weapon being used as an extention of the body. Very naturaul and efortless looking :)

[BoulderDawg]

That's the problem with Shaolin-do forms. They're all basically the same forms as you can find in books and on videos, but clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding of their respective systems. Sin may know some Mantis forms in terms of the basic movements, but he clearly doesn't understand the finer points of how to actually use Mantis. The way he uses the Mantis hand reveals that. I'd almost be willing to accept SD forms if they were totally different and marketed as an Indonesian-Chinese blend of some kind. However, that's clearly not what happened. What happened is Sin took famous forms from all kinds of systems, learned them in a perfunctory manner without understanding the deeper principles of how those systems work and then started teaching those forms to others, some of whom have done pretty well, considering.

I've studied a bit of drunken style before, and I can tell you that the drunken style I'm seeing here is just an imitation of drunken style without an understanding of the concepts behind it. I haven't studied drunken jian specifically, but I have studied jian, and I can tell you that you CAN'T use it like a dao. It's a completely different weapon. Only the third toward the tip of the jian is even sharp. It's not a hacking weapon like the dao. I don't have any videos of myself, but I do have a couple of my teacher to show some idea what I'm talking about.

Here's my teacher doing San-cai Jian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-16-cfdThY

And here's my teacher doing Yanqing Single Dao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEMirBgcC0A

Hmmm.......

I'm with the judge on this one. Before this guy can diss Grandmaster Sin The we need to know who he is and read his credentials.

You showed us flim of your teacher. How bout a few film clips of yourself showing us how Grandmaster The is doing the form incorrectly.:eek:

******

A few other things:

I've been doing SD now for 6 months and, to be honest, I knew nothing about martial arts before I started. I chose this school because of what I've read about Kung Fu and the fact that it was only a quarter mile from my house. However I have benefited from the program. I'm in much better shape and I'm learning proper hitting and kicking techniques from one of Sin's oldest students.

As I've said I enjoy the program and don't plan on going anywhere else. However a few of the things I've read are troubling. The biggest thing is the death of Grandmaster Le Chang Ming. From my readings it is reported that Le died in 1976 however I've read that he actually died in 1968. This is very strange. Why would Sin The lie about something like that....especially since it can be so easily check?

In any case, lying or not, I feel better defending myself with my SD skills than without!

[tattooedmonk]

[QUOTE=tattooedmonk]I studied at the chinese shaolin center in los angeles for 15 years (I am no longer affiliated and still practice all my material, 100+ forms ,and condtioning) QUOTE]

How in the world do you practice 100+ forms???? And why? I mean I love forms and think they are crucial to training but come on! Are you an expert at all of them and have them all perfected as Master The? You mus t practice day and night just to remember them?? My goodness just the fact that you were taught 100+ forms in 15 years is a bit odd to me. I bet you have at least 10,000 self defense applications from those forms? And are an invincible fighter?I do not practice every form every day.... I have a training schedule,teaching schedule, and study/ research time which allows me to practice 9 hours+ a day I work on different systems on different days... I do not have to practice them to remember them anymore they have become second nature and are perminently stored in my memory .......as far as perfect as Master The's .... that is just a stupid question.. why is knowing 100+ forms odd ?....that is mostly all of what I have been doing besides going to school, doing massage therapy, and acupuncture treatments for the last 15+ years.....I have applications for everymove in every form ...as far as the invincible fighter goes goes.....another stupid question...

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.shao-lin.com/video/mastersin.wmv

So which Mantis forms do you know? You wouldn't happen to have a video of one?

So in which mantis move do you keep the fingers pinched together and then use them as a unit like that? He looks like his trying to draw in the air with and imaginary pencil.actually if you look at it... his index finger is supported by the thumb and the rest are folded underlike in a fist...the extended index finger is used to strike pressure points( a major aspect of praying mantis )... the strikes are towards specific points..but because you do not know this form and/ or what he is doing ,what you are doing for that matter,you would not know this is what real praying mantis figers looks like...by the way this part of the form comes from a praying mantis form known as Tang Lang Chien...anything else?

[B-Rad]

Wouldn't preasure point strikes be more straight forward direct strikes rather than the slashing back and forth that he seems to do a lot of? Also, the index finger isn't nearly as stable of a striking weapon as something like the pheonix eye fist (what I usually see used for point striking in CMA). The mantis hook or claw seems much more effective a hand position for the end of a chin na technique, or maybe a deflection. At the angle the mantis hook is held you might be able to poke someone in the eyes, but it doesn't seem like it's a very good position for much else striking wise.

"Tang Lang Chien" is a generic name for all mantis styles in general. Odd name for an individual form. You sure it doesn't have a more descriptive name?

[tattooedmonk]

Wouldn't preasure point strikes be more straight forward direct strikes rather than the slashing back and forth that he seems to do a lot of? Also, the index finger isn't nearly as stable of a striking weapon as something like the pheonix eye fist (what I usually see used for point striking in CMA). The mantis hook or claw seems much more effective a hand position for the end of a chin na technique, or maybe a deflection. At the angle the mantis hook is held you might be able to poke someone in the eyes, but it doesn't seem like it's a very good position for much else striking wise.

"Tang Lang Chien" is a generic name for all mantis styles in general. Odd name for an individual form. You sure it doesn't have a more descriptive name? Yes.... but this is more for performance purposes and less on the applicational or instructional level.... there is more than what you see going on there....... as for the finger thing...yes... depending on the style and application..basically it depends on where you are striking... with the extended index finger it gives you extra length to strike a point that might otherwise be out of reach ....in addition ...praying mantis is known for it's finger strength and the conditioning exercises to increase them...considering the style ..this is a prefered method ... where as in crane style the phoenix eye might be employed..and actually when the praying mantis style was invented it used primarly hammer fist strikes to hit presure points...and yes the form is called just that.. I have heard some called it 72 kicks of Tang Lang Chien ... and I actually liked that name better!!

[onyomi]

and actually when the praying mantis style was invented it used primarly hammer fist strikes to hit presure points...and yes the form is called just that.. I have heard some called it 72 kicks of Tang Lang Chien ... and I actually liked that name better!!

And where did you get that info? Considering that there is little if anything like that in Beng-bu the first PM form, I find it a bit hard to believe. Also, there is no form called simply "Tang Lang Quan." That's the name of the art as a whole.

Praying Mantis does emphasize striking vital points, but it does so with two fingers pointed (dian-xue), the distal knucle of the index finger (guitou-shou), or a phoenix-eye, NOT with the point of the index finger. That is exclusively used for eye gouges. Also, if you're striking to vital points you STRIKE, not make little circular motions. He looks more like his mimicking some kind of qinna, but if that were the case he should be moving his fingers.

The other thing that really ****es me off about some of you SD people is you presume to lecture people who actually specialize in an art about how said art is used. People have devoted their entire lives to Praying Mantis specifically and still not achieved a complete mastery of all its aspects. How then can you SD people, who in addition to your Mantis also claim to study Longfist, Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, Southern 5 Animal, and basically every other major CMA even come close to a real understanding of the Mantis system? It takes a couple of years studying Mantis exclusively just to get a basic feel for the system and how it fights. To really master it is quite literally a life's work. I guarantee you if I post that video of Sin Te on the Praying Mantis form they will all think it is a joke because they treat Mantis as you would treat the violin, not the triangle. Sure, you can learn to play "Mary had a Little Lamb" on every instrument in the orchestra, but wouldn't you rather spend your time learning how to really play just one or two instruments well?

[kwaichang]

I studied Tang Lang 7 star and Southern Mantis, and Hung Gar, from 1971-1981 Privately . I also taught the mantis class at the Austin School, The mantis I taught that I learned from SD is authentic and very similar to what I studied prior to starting SD 13 years ago? As far as the form GMST is demonstrating it is just that a demo when performing Tang Lang Chien the emphasis is there for application. Not all Mantis look the same I can personally attest to this but the forms I learned do use the Mantis Beak or Claw and do strike points as well as wrap and trap. KC

[MasterKiller]

Also, there is no form called simply "Tang Lang Quan." That's the name of the art as a whole.

One of my forms is called Tang Lang Chuan. It's short, and nothing like the SD form, but the name is similar nonetheless.

[onyomi]

One of my forms is called Tang Lang Chuan. It's short, and nothing like the SD form, but the name is similar nonetheless.

Don't you do like a Korean hybrid style though? Well, I suppose just as there is a form called "Shaolin-quan" in Islamic Longfist, there could be one called "Tanglang-quan" in some other lineage (though I wouldn't guess it's one of the well-known Mantis lineages, as the name is so generic).

The mantis hand is not a "beak." It isn't used that way. It isn't crane.

[tattooedmonk]

And where did you get that info? Considering that there is little if anything like that in Beng-bu the first PM form, I find it a bit hard to believe. Also, there is no form called simply "Tang Lang Quan." That's the name of the art as a whole.

Praying Mantis does emphasize striking vital points, but it does so with two fingers pointed (dian-xue), the distal knucle of the index finger (guitou-shou), or a phoenix-eye, NOT with the point of the index finger. That is exclusively used for eye gouges. Also, if you're striking to vital points you STRIKE, not make little circular motions. He looks more like his mimicking some kind of qinna, but if that were the case he should be moving his fingers.

The other thing that really ****es me off about some of you SD people is you presume to lecture people who actually specialize in an art about how said art is used. People have devoted their entire lives to Praying Mantis specifically and still not achieved a complete mastery of all its aspects. How then can you SD people, who in addition to your Mantis also claim to study Longfist, Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, Southern 5 Animal, and basically every other major CMA even come close to a real understanding of the Mantis system? It takes a couple of years studying Mantis exclusively just to get a basic feel for the system and how it fights. To really master it is quite literally a life's work. I guarantee you if I post that video of Sin Te on the Praying Mantis form they will all think it is a joke because they treat Mantis as you would treat the violin, not the triangle. Sure, you can learn to play "Mary had a Little Lamb" on every instrument in the orchestra, but wouldn't you rather spend your time learning how to really play just one or two instruments well? Check it out..we obviously have gotten off on the wrong foot here.. first off your traditions, style, and system come from a different lineage...however they come from the same source...... so lets keep that in mind...now as far as the praying mantis using primarily hammer strikes in the beginning stages of the style.... well I have heard this from many historians, masters, and from my own research ... it was not until more modern times that the mantis fingers were implemented in to the style...you might find it hard to believe but obviously that does not mean that you could not believe it at all!?!?...

What about white ape steals the peach?? How many times do you see mantis fingers in that form?? you see vertical fist, you see hammer fist, you see side hand strikes, and only at the beginning and end of the form do you see mantis fingers...and you know that the form is called.... white ape steals the peach ...so how can it be that it is a mantis form?? what does this mean?? that no matter what the lineage ,name, or handgestures it is still praying mantis ...we have forms that are the same, we have forms that are different , some of it we use the same and some of it we use different...in the end we are both trying to preserve the art and promote our particular styles and systems.

Right and wrong are a matter of perception but truth is absolute...

As for the waving the hand around it is circling around the attack before it strikes( defensive to offensive technique)if you do not know the form then how is it that you can assume what is actually happening??? ...if you use two finger to strike a point the energy is disappated across a large area and can not be that precise....if you do use two fingers it is so one can support the other.....as far as the form tang lang chien....I believe actually it is a more modern creation..one that was created after the split between your lineage and mine which would explain why you do not know it or have ever heard of it up until now...

I am not here to lecture any one.. I am here to learn practice and teach...period !!

The reason why we practice all these styles is to preserve the art and to not limit our option when it comes to what we teach ,practice, or learn..before we(as martial artist) were limited on what style and how much we could learn ....but with us we have a whole collection of styles to choose from

..and many people do pick one or two styles to to practice.

.It is like going to a unversity and taking on a full load and double major in a particular field compared to taking a few classes ....you still get an education and learn and gain knowledge but we get more of the information and knowledge over a shorter period of time...... which not everyone can handle but at least it is there ..and I thank god for that!!

...by the way..I am no longer affiliated..but I remain loyal to my Grandmaster and the Art because I am thankful for all that he has given me and continues to give to me even though I do not study with him anymore...

.and as for it taking a life time and lifes work to master it..i have made it my lifes work and I plan on spending the rest of my life devoted to the arts....

[tattooedmonk]

Don't you do like a Korean hybrid style though? Well, I suppose just as there is a form called "Shaolin-quan" in Islamic Longfist, there could be one called "Tanglang-quan" in some other lineage (though I wouldn't guess it's one of the well-known Mantis lineages, as the name is so generic).

The mantis hand is not a "beak." It isn't used that way. It isn't crane.How can you be so judgemental and so critical?

[Judge Pen]

Check it out..we obviously have gotten off on the wrong foot here....

Dude, not to say I told you so, but when you start out a posting on a topic with
I studied at the chinese shaolin center in los angeles for 15 years (I am no longer affiliated and still practice all my material, 100+ forms ,and condtioning) I have read a great deal of the crap that is spewed out by the uninformed.... many of you have never joined or participated in any S.D. seminars, classes, and/or activities so shut the F**k Up!!...if you did then you would have a completely different view of the topics in which you discuss...first off this has been said a thousand ,if not a million, times that the traditions and the uniform are different than what most consider to be "traditional shaolin garb" I say BullSH**...look at the Shaolin monks ...yeah it maybe orange but without the shoes and the leg ties it is a F**King GI...where the hell does everyone think that Karate came from anyway?? CHINA !!! this would explain why the japanese Gi looks like the Shaolin garb........ if you know the story you know how we came to using it ...what is the difference anyway???..and by the way GMT practices with shoes on...if you do not understand or follow the reasons why we have more japanese outward appearences then you are just a f**king idiot...as for the way the forms are done ...Sh**...they are done without fluidity.... but the forms themselves are purely chinese in origin...I understand that most of the people viewing this art are too judgemental, ( extra emphasis on the mental), and because what you have seen does not resemble what you know or practice you think that it must be Bullshido... not to mention the number it does on your ego...or else you would not state the senseless Bull Sh** that you do!!...well I invite anyone who lives in the L.A. area or not to contact me for instruction , conversation, or ....? I have many forms on tape( mostly of me doing them).... and when I transfer them to vcd or dvd I will be more than happy to send out some copies of them( not in there entirety) so when you want to talk sh** you better know what the F**K you are talking about or keep your mouth shut.....or someone might come along and show you where you are wrong ...and shut you the F**k up!!
then you can expect people to discount what you say after that. Now you obviously work very hard in your training and have a lot of experience in SD so you may be able to add much to this endless debate here in KFO. I hope so.

[MasterKiller]

Don't you do like a Korean hybrid style though? Well, I suppose just as there is a form called "Shaolin-quan" in Islamic Longfist, there could be one called "Tanglang-quan" in some other lineage (though I wouldn't guess it's one of the well-known Mantis lineages, as the name is so generic).

It's a blend of Northern Mantis and Shaolin Long Fist. If that's "hybrid," then I guess so.

Do you consider Lin Pan Zhang's lineage to be not well-known?

Chinese guys teaching in Korea are still Chinese. No different than Chinese guys teaching in San Francisco...

[Judge Pen]

Chinese guys teaching in Korea are still Chinese. No different than Chinese guys teaching in San Francisco...

Or Indonesia.

[MasterKiller]

Or Indonesia.
touche'

:D

[onyomi]

It's a blend of Northern Mantis and Shaolin Long Fist. If that's "hybrid," then I guess so.

Do you consider Lin Pan Zhang's lineage to be not well-known?

Chinese guys teaching in Korea are still Chinese. No different than Chinese guys teaching in San Francisco...

Ok, sorry. I didn't mean to insult your system. What lineage is it originally? What other Mantis forms do you do?

About White Ape Steals Peach... I know there is a ton of Mantis that doesn't use the Mantis hand... there's hardly a single Mantis hand in the entire Liuhe Mantis system! That's actually my issue with Sin's Mantis... I've seen a couple videos of him performing Mantis and he always seems to be dancing around with his hands held rigidly in Mantis hooks, which is not how Mantis works at all! The hooks are something you transition in and out of smoothly when performing certain moves, especially trapping and qinna.

Also, does anyone know the names of Sin's teacher and grand-teacher in Chinese characters? I can't find anything on them in Chinese, but that's because I can't figure out what characters the strange romanization they use are meant to represent.

[Judge Pen]

That's the strange thing. For what I understand, most manits hands is Sd are trapping and chin-na. Maybe it's my perspective on it. Certainly theres eye gouges, and pick the fruit is a mantis hand as well, but its a bridge for making contact--for applying the "listening energy."

But, I don't have the mantis techniqes that GM The was doing in that video. But it looked to me to be a trap and then a pull with the hands. I don't see that as inconsistent with other manits that I've been exposed to.

[Golden Tiger]

The other thing that really ****es me off about some of you SD people is you presume to lecture people who actually specialize in an art about how said art is used.


Uhhhh.....isn't that what you are doing to us and SD? I specialize in SD and at best, you have seen a few videos. Yet you seem to make it a career of lecturing about the evil of SD and M.Sin.


Practice what you preach sparky.

[tattooedmonk]

Dude, not to say I told you so, but when you start out a posting on a topic with
then you can expect people to discount what you say after that. Now you obviously work very hard in your training and have a lot of experience in SD so you may be able to add much to this endless debate here in KFO. I hope so.I have no problems with any of this.... I have been here before ( in this same type of situation)..I do not come unarmed or unprepared..... I have a wealth of knowledge and experience to share and I am more than happy to get to learn somethings that I did not know...if you look at post 108( hahah) you will see how I feel about this subject and how I am willing to approach and deal with these issues...thanx

[onyomi]

Uhhhh.....isn't that what you are doing to us and SD? I specialize in SD and at best, you have seen a few videos. Yet you seem to make it a career of lecturing about the evil of SD and M.Sin.


Practice what you preach sparky.

No, because SD is not a style, it is a school claiming to teach a wide variety of syles.

[Judge Pen]

No, because SD is not a style, it is a school claiming to teach a wide variety of syles.

Well as so often pointed out by the detractors, it all looks the same in SD (true or not, that's what is said). It's been incorporated under one styles. In theory, the different styles are generally taught in sequence to focus on individual concepts that will make you a better martial artist. Doesn't that make it its own uniqe style?

Aren't most kung fu styles a combinatation of others? Eventually the monkey-esque footwork in mantis stoped being seen as monkey and became mantis as things were modified and added to it. At that point, a monkey stylist couldn't honestly say that the mantis footwork is wrong because its done differently than theirs (or vice versa).

[Golden Tiger]

Whatchout JP, you are going to make some sense if you aren't careful.. . .

[onyomi]

If it was marketed more like that (a hybrid system) I'd be more okay with it. But do you have forms that actually combine elements from your multiple systems as Mantis combines the monkey footwork into its forms?

If they marketed it more as a unique system combining elements of various styles I'd be more okay with it. Rather, they say that Sin Te is the nth generation Shaolin Grandmaster with the unprecedented honor of being MASTER of all 18 of the Shaolin styles, etc. etc. Each of these styles he claims mastery of is designed to be a complete system unto itself with enough material to last a lifetime. They try to make it sound like he's a well-accepted expert on a variety of CMAs, when the only thing he's an expert on is SD.

Anyway, that is a matter of marketing and if you all still honestly feel it increases your fighting ability then do whatever makes you happy. Just realize that SD is a long way off from the way traditional CMA does things.

[tattooedmonk]

Tradition comes from the latin word traditio.."to hand down" or "to hand over"...the way your systems traditions were handed down in a different way than ours was .....as for the difference between style or system... style is some thing that comes from within it.... is part of your ideaology and creative self ...it is the way that someone interprets,performs, or lives ...it is a particular psychological, philosophical and /or physiological practice or belief system.... Praying mantis is not a style.... how you perform, interpret ,or live the praying mantis system is your style .....praying mantis is one of the sub-systems of Shaolin Do..Shaolin is belief system based philosophical Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism with connections to Hinduism,Shamanism and Islamism...

[Mr. Horse]

I have read these posts for years. I have seen SD videos. Some people say it is the real thing. Some people say it is not.

I have been studying and training in CMA for more than 15 years. I have spoken to many sifu of many styles. It seems from my experience that SD is incorrect.

Some of my reasons:

1. The Name is strange. It seems to be a mixture of languages. If it is traditional Shaolin kung fu, why not just call it Shaolin Kung fu or Shaolin Wushu?

2. The history seems incorrect. The history of SD mentions master that are not in the history of Shaolin that is generally accepted. The master with the hair sickness is an extraordinary man. If he was that good, he would be known and written outside SD.

3. The GI. Chinese clothing and Japanese clothing are different. They are similar but not the same. A shaolin robe is a robe. A Japanese GI is underwear. It is traditionally worn under kimono and hakama. Does a kung fu style have to wear a black uniform with white cuffs? No, but wearing a gi is odd for a traditional Chinese style to do.

4. The forms seem wrong. I have watch SD video clips. It appears that the masters and students doing the forms don't fully understand what they are doing. it looks like book learning. I don't do mantis, but I have seen it enough to know that the SD mantis looks wrong. Some may argue that I don't study mantis so I don't know all of the variations of it. This is not so. I don't play the saxophone but I know that you don't play it with a guitar pick.

I am not saying SD people don't know how to fight. I am not saying that they don't train hard. However, SD seems like a style of kempo and not kung fu

[onyomi]

4. The forms seem wrong. I have watch SD video clips. It appears that the masters and students doing the forms don't fully understand what they are doing. it looks like book learning. I don't do mantis, but I have seen it enough to know that the SD mantis looks wrong. Some may argue that I don't study mantis so I don't know all of the variations of it. This is not so. I don't play the saxophone but I know that you don't play it with a guitar pick.

I am not saying SD people don't know how to fight. I am not saying that they don't train hard. However, SD seems like a style of kempo and not kung fu

I do Mantis and agree with you. Not only that, but I have pointed out specific problems with what little SD mantis I've seen, but to no avail. To be fair, they have addressed the issues of the name, the uniform, etc. They may be strange, but the question is whether or not they really have an understanding of the systems and forms they practice. I've yet to see any SD videos that gave me that impression.

I'm not going to continue debating, as I've already done so ad nauseum in another foum and realized I'm not going to convert any of the hardcore SDists, but if anyone has any more SD videos that they think would show SD in a more positive light, please come forward. If possible try to pick a form like Baiyuan Toutao that has a name people recognize, as opposed to just, "here's some guy doing drunken style."

[tattooedmonk]

I have read these posts for years. I have seen SD videos. Some people say it is the real thing. Some people say it is not.

I have been studying and training in CMA for more than 15 years. I have spoken to many sifu of many styles. It seems from my experience that SD is incorrect.

Some of my reasons:

1. The Name is strange. It seems to be a mixture of languages. If it is traditional Shaolin kung fu, why not just call it Shaolin Kung fu or Shaolin Wushu?

2. The history seems incorrect. The history of SD mentions master that are not in the history of Shaolin that is generally accepted. The master with the hair sickness is an extraordinary man. If he was that good, he would be known and written outside SD.

3. The GI. Chinese clothing and Japanese clothing are different. They are similar but not the same. A shaolin robe is a robe. A Japanese GI is underwear. It is traditionally worn under kimono and hakama. Does a kung fu style have to wear a black uniform with white cuffs? No, but wearing a gi is odd for a traditional Chinese style to do.

4. The forms seem wrong. I have watch SD video clips. It appears that the masters and students doing the forms don't fully understand what they are doing. it looks like book learning. I don't do mantis, but I have seen it enough to know that the SD mantis looks wrong. Some may argue that I don't study mantis so I don't know all of the variations of it. This is not so. I don't play the saxophone but I know that you don't play it with a guitar pick.

I am not saying SD people don't know how to fight. I am not saying that they don't train hard. However, SD seems like a style of kempo and not kung fu Just curious..... would it not stand to reason that if the art was passed down with Japanese traditions that it would also resemble more of a Japanese Karate feel rather than a Chinese Chuan Fa feel??

As for the 2 different languages...the idiograms are the same for Shaoilin Do as they would be for Shaolin Tao...whether it be Chinese or Japanese...it still means The Way of Shaolin or Shaolin Way...So is it really a different language??No... it is a different dialect....

As for the lineage ....ours is third generation, once removed, from the temple proper ( seeing as Ie Chang Ming was in the temple with Su Kong Tai Djin)...if you look at most schools traditions and systems you will see that their systems are far more removed from the temple teachings proper..... so who has a more reliable source of information as to what was going on in the temples and how the arts were taught at that time?? Many individual masters, to claim legitimacy, have kept written track of their lineage ,history, and traditions ........ ours was passed down by oral tradition.. any record of Su Kong or Ie chang Ming's existence was lost in the last temple burning at Fukien....

Seeing as some people do not understand this I will explain...kung fu means time and effort , hard work, or acquired skill..with that being said... anyone who has become proficient at anything has acquired skill through hard work, time, and effort .and could be called or said to know kung fu...

Shaolin Do could be called Shaolin kempo( boxing), Kenpo( boxing), karate( china hand) , wushu( warrior art) ,or chuan fa(boxing).....but actually to call it kung fu is incorrect ......and that is why it is called Shaolin Do Martial Arts...very few in SD call it Kung FU.....if they do.... that is their choice and they have their reasons...it is still Chinese martial arts whether it came through Japan, Korea ,or Indonesia ......it still has Chinese origins..

As for the Gi ...look at the difference between a monks attire and the Japanese GI.....they are the color,the belt, arm/ leg ties, and shoes ( all cosmetic)...if you say that it is underwear for the Japanese.... this is true..... but not underwear in the sense of how we understand it...it was "worn under", (underwear), the kimono ...

The forms seem wrong ?? Compared to what?? How can you compare apples to oranges?? Yeah they are both fruit and have nutritional value...but an apple you can eat right away.... which is how Shaolin Do teaches( for emidiate usage and comprehension) where as with other systems you have to wait a while to get to the fruit....you ever try to use a set of techniques from a "Chinese Kung Fu" form ( kuen) taught by a "traditional" kungfu practitioner?? It takes alot to make those techniques work in application... it is too soft and fluid...fluidity is something you gain over time with effort, hard work, and aquired skill( Kung Fu) ....not right away...otherwise it is ineffective and just a dance......thanx..... and have a nice day!!

[Mr. Horse]

You must be kidding. However, I am not going to argue with you.


Oh yeah. Karate means empty hand 空手. It is the kara in Karaoke 空オケ. Some of your other translations are a bit funky, too.

Later!

[tattooedmonk]

You must be kidding. However, I am not going to argue with you.


Oh yeah. Karate means empty hand 空手. It is the kara in Karaoke 空オケ. Some of your other translations are a bit funky, too.

Later! You can not argue with common sense or facts....The original idiograms that were used for karate meant China Hand ..Gechin Funakoshi changed it to represent empty hand... other translation are funky??..you have got to be kiding me...which ones??.. This all you could come up with?? Yeah later!!much later!!

[Mr. Horse]

Dude! This is an on-line forum. We are nameless and faceless to each other. I don't want to argue with someone about something that is not the most important thing in studies. If we were in a cafe, I would be happy to talk about it more.

Common sense

What seems to be common is that many people question SD's claims. I haven't really seen any other style have this problem. If you don't think so, do a search in these forums or other forums.

Facts

The fact is that your history is questionable. It may or may not be true but it is questionable. There have been long threads about it. Another fact is that stylists who do the same say you are doing the techniques wrong (not the form).

Karate was not invented by Gechin Funakoshi. It isn't even Japanese. It is from Okinawa. Peasants were not allowed to use weapons so they mastered unarmed combat (empty hand). Most of the weapons in this style are farming tools.

If you truly what to talk about this PM me your telephone number and i will can talk about this.

I have been coming to this forum for almost 6 years but I don't post so much. I have other things to do.

[tattooedmonk]

Dude! This is an on-line forum. We are nameless and faceless to each other. I don't want to argue with someone about something that is not the most important thing in studies. If we were in a cafe, I would be happy to talk about it more.

Common sense

What seems to be common is that many people question SD's claims. I haven't really seen any other style have this problem. If you don't think so, do a search in these forums or other forums.

Facts

The fact is that your history is questionable. It may or may not be true but it is questionable. There have been long threads about it. Another fact is that stylists who do the same say you are doing the techniques wrong (not the form).

Karate was not invented by Gechin Funakoshi. It isn't even Japanese. It is from Okinawa. Peasants were not allowed to use weapons so they mastered unarmed combat (empty hand). Most of the weapons in this style are farming tools.

If you truly what to talk about this PM me your telephone number and i will can talk about this.

I have been coming to this forum for almost 6 years but I don't post so much. I have other things to do.actually many styles/ systems have this problem ..just not on the same scale..because this is so far removed from everyones conceptions and preconceptions of what is and what is not it screws with their minds...How many chinese systems do you know of that have come to america by way of indonesia?? It is a unique history to say the least....and to be honest it is alittle out there ..but that is what makes it so believable ..because no one could be that creative to make the sh** up... it would take many hours,studying and plotting to beable to do that..and quite frankly considering the varifyable documented proof of his life ...he would not have had the time...

If it works in application how can it be wrong?? you would have to know the form to know whether it was right of wrong....hell most of the people that practice "kung fu" can not even apply the techniques from the forms... let alone even be able to disect them out of the forms properly.... all that flowery crap will get your ass kicked and lacks power and focus..

.uhh I said that Gechin Funokoshi changed the idiogram..I did not say that he invented karate.....pay attention.. you send your number and I will call you....

[Mr. Horse]

according to Wikipedia, Karate was first 唐手. It was the name of China at the time. Funakoshi sensei changed it to 空手. I stand corrected.

[kwaichang]

OK, all of you 35-40 people that post on the forum are right!! All the other 3000-4000 that take SD who hold Phd's, Masters, Bachelors, and have seen martial arts are wrong. You seem to forget that we of SD can research too. Many of us have. So what do we have here:
1. Different movements,
2. Different "way" of moving,
3. No written History that we know of,whether it is real or made up.
4. The uniform does not fit into our idea of what we expect it should be.
5. The style SD , doesnt look like the Hung Gar,Mantis,LongFist etc. that I do.
6. Su Kong Tai Jin looks "wierd" and we have no history of him and "by God" we should, he looks so different.
7. SD uses belts
8. FILL IN THE BLANK

But fill it in with something tangible no more he said I havent seen etc that means nothing but opinion with out fact Dr Wayne Dyer says that in life it is easy to be offended by othersbut that is all EGO trying to say we are right you are wrong.
KC

[Judge Pen]

4. The forms seem wrong. I have watch SD video clips. It appears that the masters and students doing the forms don't fully understand what they are doing. it looks like book learning. I don't do mantis, but I have seen it enough to know that the SD mantis looks wrong. Some may argue that I don't study mantis so I don't know all of the variations of it. This is not so. I don't play the saxophone but I know that you don't play it with a guitar pick.


TTT: Please comment on my form since its baseless statements like this that led me to put a video of myself on this forum for debate. In your opinion, is my form CMA or JMA or other? It's a traditional SD form that I've known for years. I'm not a great forms person and there's lots wrong with the way that I do the form, but you should be able to judge the structure of the form from my performance.

And please, for reference, post a clip of you doing a simliar form (Chinese pole-arm of some sort) for a frame of reference as to your knowledge and perspective. After all, in my sometimes idealistic mind, I think that what these types of forums should be about: sharing knowedlge and clearing up mis-information. Please do that so we will know that you may actually know what you are talking about. I did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

[onyomi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

That one wasn't too bad. A bit sluggish, but not bad. I've never studied Guan Dao, so I don't know what it's supposed to be like, but assuming he's a relative beginner it looks pretty good. If it's a Longfist-ish form I'd guess that those places where he takes several slow steps should be "xing-bu," a kind of controlled running.

Keep them coming and maybe I'll upgrade my opinion of SD from "total fraud that I wish would disappear" to "an okay activity for Americans with no access to more authentic CMA."

I wonder if Mr. Language expert (Tatooedmonk) can answer my question about the Chinese characters for the names of Ie Man-ching and Su Kong Tai-jin.

[godzillakungfu]

What is it Sin Te is supposed to be doing in that video? Please tell me it's not Praying Mantis.... please...
Yes, in the West it was labeled as Mantis.


I studied at the chinese shaolin center in los angeles for 15 years (I am no longer affiliated and still practice all my material, 100+ forms ,and condtioning) I have read a great deal of the crap that is spewed out by the uninformed....!Don't do this please. Look we probably no each other TTM. There are problems in the art. There is some really good stuff in there but it is the quality of teaching that is circumspect.


See JP i told you it would turn into this type of thread.

[godzillakungfu]

That one wasn't too bad. A bit sluggish, but not bad. I've never studied Guan Dao, so I don't know what it's supposed to be like, but assuming he's a relative beginner it looks pretty good. If it's a Longfist-ish form I'd guess that those places where he takes several slow steps should be "xing-bu," a kind of controlled running.


If TTM is who I think he is, he is why I stayed in so long. Except for the Gi, which everyone has problems with, you would swear he was doing CMA.

Now, if I'm wrong boy will I be eating crow.

You know what is funny we have a broadsword form that moves very similar to your teachers vid. That right there shows a chinese connection IMO.

So, I won't comment but, this has raised new questions for myself.

[tattooedmonk]

Yes, in the West it was labeled as Mantis.

Don't do this please. Look we probably no each other TTM. There are problems in the art. There is some really good stuff in there but it is the quality of teaching that is circumspect.


See JP i told you it would turn into this type of thread.Like I said ..My loyalty and dedication goes to the Art first and Grandmaster The'. second ..because if it was not for the art he would not be where he is today..he has never done anything to me.....period !!!...and this is based on Shaolin philosophy ..I agree with the comment about the way it is taught by many instructors/masters....this is.part of the reason why I am longer afiliated...but the Shaolin Art is what is important here...period!!

[tattooedmonk]

If TTM is who I think he is, he is why I stayed in so long. Except for the Gi, which everyone has problems with, you would swear he was doing CMA.

Now, if I'm wrong boy will I be eating crow.

You know what is funny we have a broadsword form that moves very similar to your teachers vid. That right there shows a chinese connection IMO.

So, I won't comment but, this has raised new questions for myself.If you know who I am ... I appreciate that....

[tattooedmonk]

If it was marketed more like that (a hybrid system) I'd be more okay with it. But do you have forms that actually combine elements from your multiple systems as Mantis combines the monkey footwork into its forms?

If they marketed it more as a unique system combining elements of various styles I'd be more okay with it. Rather, they say that Sin Te is the nth generation Shaolin Grandmaster with the unprecedented honor of being MASTER of all 18 of the Shaolin styles, etc. etc. Each of these styles he claims mastery of is designed to be a complete system unto itself with enough material to last a lifetime. They try to make it sound like he's a well-accepted expert on a variety of CMAs, when the only thing he's an expert on is SD.

Anyway, that is a matter of marketing and if you all still honestly feel it increases your fighting ability then do whatever makes you happy. Just realize that SD is a long way off from the way traditional CMA does things.Funny..I thought that it was obvious that it is a hybrid...Shaolin over all is a hybrid system based on a strong philosophy...the philosophy comes from India, Tibet, and China and other cultures and peoples.....it takes philosophical principles,ideas and theories from Buddhism,Taoism,Confucianism in addition to Shamanism, Hinduism ,and Islamism you can see it in the different forms, styles ,and practices....

The Shaolin Order often had summits with the different martial arts masters, schools. and temples.... they shared many military, medical, meditative, arts and sciences ...they taught, learned, practiced, and created there own unique system.....Shaolin took most valuable knowledge from the best and most reliable sources.. they sent many practices out in to the world.......many of which have made there own motifications, adopted their own traditions,and came up with there own teaching styles.... which would explain why there is so many variations and intepretations of similar and/or the same systems...


The Grandmaster of any system oversees the practices and the teachings in all areas...However they are not neccesarally a Master in all the systems in which they oversee .....the are the source of the information and have the general knowledge regarding all of the systems..they usual have a special area of expertice which they focus their studies .....they are the keepers of the system..

I do not believe that anyone thinks that it will make you a better fighter for the cosmetic reasons or the way that it is marketed... there is strength in numbers and SD has large numbers and continues to increase in numbers .....and in knowing what will and will not work...and SD does know what works on many levels..... and it does give anyone who practices, if they know how to use it ,an advantage..

I do not believe either that SD wants to go back to being like Shaolin of old or be anything like one cultures defintions of it..it has adapted itself to modern times and is more useful today as it is ,without all the attachments to the old way ,or the " traditional" way.. it has improvised, adapted, and overcome all forms of adversity to become the driving force in the way Shaolin will be promoted, practiced ,and perpetuated for generations to come... It is Shaolin Do.... The Way of Shaolin...

[tattooedmonk]

As far as I am concerned those forms were done very poorly....they lack any focus, power , spirit,or foundation in the fundamentals ....they have no business being posted on a web page to promote the art or system...

I can understand why many people criticize the system, students/ masters, and forms...it is too bad this reflects the skill level of better than 75% of the practioners of the system.....it is not the students fault ......it is the teachers/masters and organization...but not all of them

...If you know who I am..... then you know what I am about....if you do not.... you will soon learn..I keep it short,simple, and directly to the point ...I tell it like it is and I am not afraid of what others think or feel about what I say ...if you do not like it that is your issue and not mine.....I will not make it personal and you should not make it personal either.....stick to the facts, the truth and I will have no problem discusing any of this in great detail......

[kwaichang]

There are good and bad in all systems if teachers hand picked their students I would pick many with the stamina , power and athletic heritage to perform the Art well and with "good" form. Alas not all are able to do the splits or do vertical Kicks but all we can do is try. To say 75% I feel is a little high, but I can only assume you have seen all the practitioners of SD and get the number by that . KC :)

[tattooedmonk]

There are good and bad in all systems if teachers hand picked their students I would pick many with the stamina , power and athletic heritage to perform the Art well and with "good" form. Alas not all are able to do the splits or do vertical Kicks but all we can do is try. To say 75% I feel is a little high, but I can only assume you have seen all the practitioners of SD and get the number by that . KC :)I agree with this first part...they should at least hand pick people to better represent the art on a web site promoting the Art, its masters ,and system....

Not everyone does it for the same reasons or can do it as well as it can and should be done....in this case ...modifications can be made to compensate for peoples different strengths and and weaknesses .. it should adjusted for their specific body ,personality, and capabilities....

This is why in the temples students were assigned specific systems and specific masters to eliminate these types of problems and confusion...I am not saying that it has to go back to that way either to resolve these problems .....

This is based on what I have seen ,experienced, and know...75 % is a fair number....at 1st black I could best most 3rds and 4ths...but not all of them..

[godzillakungfu]

As far as I am concerned those forms were done very poorly....they lack any focus, power , spirit,or foundation in the fundamentals ....they have no business being posted on a web page to promote the art or system...

I can understand why many people criticize the system, students/ masters, and forms...it is too bad this reflects the skill level of better than 75% of the practioners of the system.....it is not the students fault ......it is the teachers/masters and organization...but not all of them..
Ha Ha Ha ha!!

Yeah, if you knew who I was you'd be shocked. I had a reputation of being abrasive. I've actually reined it in on these threads. It may upset some of the CSC lurkers but, the above is true. 75% is to low a number IMO. Especially if I think I know you. You dropped/disappeared and the new crop of instructors are worse.

[tattooedmonk]

Ha Ha Ha ha!!

Yeah, if you knew who I was you'd be shocked. I had a reputation of being abrasive. I've actually reined it in on these threads. It may upset some of the CSC lurkers but, the above is true. 75% is to low a number IMO. Especially if I think I know you. You dropped/disappeared and the new crop of instructors are worse. I would? well if that is the case shock me!!...I probably will not be that surprised...I am glad that you agree with me on many issues ..glad to know that there is someone out here that knows what I am talking about and has my back.....if they thought you were abrasive ..what did they think I was?? ..I do not care what csc,their students, teachers or masters think..I hope they are looking and know who this is...I am sure that anyone that trained there within the past 15 years could tell you who I am just by reading my posts......but I am puzzled as to who you might be...can you give me any clues?...if you want you can send me a personal message. ...there was a few people that I trained with and taught over the years that felt this way...... and were considered abrasive..by the way what is IMO?? am pretty new to the forum thing and do not know alot about .the abreviations yet..but if i see andther LOL i am going to freak out!! hahaha...take care...and thanx

[onyomi]

What good is hand-picking students to represent the art when every video I've seen of the "Grandmaster" of said art makes me crack up laughing? The problem with these videos is not the athleticism of the practitioners. Sin himself obviously used to have a great physique. The problem is all the videos I've seen, including those of Sin, lead me to believe that the practitioners don't have a good understanding of the system or weapon they are supposed to be performing.

[godzillakungfu]

What good is hand-picking students to represent the art when every video I've seen of the "Grandmaster" of said art makes me crack up laughing? The problem with these videos is not the athleticism of the practitioners. Sin himself obviously used to have a great physique. The problem is all the videos I've seen, including those of Sin, lead me to believe that the practitioners don't have a good understanding of the system or weapon they are supposed to be performing.

I'm really starting to think you haven't seen any Sin The' vids except the TLQ demo. The one that was a promo for his Long Talked about movie. Yep I have it somewhere on tape in all of its infamous glory. So, if you are calling crap on Sin The' because of that, then I can say you are only learning modern wushu.

[tattooedmonk]

I'm really starting to think you haven't seen any Sin The' vids except the TLQ demo. The one that was a promo for his Long Talked about movie. Yep I have it somewhere on tape in all of its infamous glory. So, if you are calling crap on Sin The' because of that, then I can say you are only learning modern wushu.I second that...

[tattooedmonk]

ok, I need to ask this. After seeing the spear vs broadsword set (that girl should not be doing a two person set until she has basic broadsword skills) The drunken sword set-bad figure eights and some stumbling around), the drunken fist set,the double daggar set, and the five animal set-(someone bought Doc Fai-Wong's book and only read the first few pages),
It is obvious that these are not traditional Chinese Martial Arts sets. Are the students encouraged to create their own sets?
Please say yes.you are correct about the perfomance and the lack of fundamentals and understanding of the basics..in most of these schools if you can remember the material spar alittle bit( because you paid the money) you will get new forms and belts...

when I use to sit on the blackbelt panels during testing I always gave out 70's ( the lowest passing score) they would not let me give failing scores..... I did once and they threw out my score sheet...this is out of 75 possible points (highest possible)... because no one is believed to be perfect.... ( actually Master The gives out points up into the 80's...I use to get alot of crap for that...

most of these practitioners are sub par....and many of them do not deserve the belts and or the material they have bought...

actually these are authentic shaolin sets..it is just there performances lack any sign of it.....

and actually some of the sets in the system were, to my knowledge, created by Master The ( which stands to reason seeing as that is what has happened over the history of the shaolin order...everymaster should get the ooportunity to add to the collection...if they are truely a master)..one example..Chiang Su Liang Su( spear fighting techniques) this is a creation of master The's, from what I understand , was created by him during the time that he was testing for 3rd black.....

[BoulderDawg]

Agreed. This is the only bone of contention I have with my Shao-lin Do school. I myself don't really feel qualified to wear the belt I hold. However I only view the belts as a marketing gimmick anyway.

I take a realistic view as to how I'm actually advancing and not what color belt I wear.

That said I can understand from a business standpoint why it's like this. I also believe the same is true in other schools.

[onyomi]

I'm really starting to think you haven't seen any Sin The' vids except the TLQ demo. The one that was a promo for his Long Talked about movie. Yep I have it somewhere on tape in all of its infamous glory. So, if you are calling crap on Sin The' because of that, then I can say you are only learning modern wushu.

I have seen a couple, though they're usually very brief and Sin does more talking than demo. I don't do modern wushu. I do traditional PM and Longfist in Taiwan taught to my teacher by Wang Songting, the last martial Zhuangyuan of the Qing Dynasty and head instructor at the Republic of China's Qingdao Martial Institute.

And if what SD does bears no relation to modern wushu, then why does he and SD take trips to the Shaolin temple, which is just a tourist trap full of monks training in modern wushu?

[godzillakungfu]

I have seen a couple, though they're usually very brief and Sin does more talking than demo. I don't do modern wushu. I do traditional PM and Longfist in Taiwan taught to my teacher by Wang Songting, the last martial Zhuangyuan of the Qing Dynasty and head instructor at the Republic of China's Qingdao Martial Institute.

Thank you for being honest.


And if what SD does bears no relation to modern wushu, then why does he and SD take trips to the Shaolin temple, which is just a tourist trap full of monks training in modern wushu? If I told you my opinion I'd have to kill you.:) Joke.

This is a starwman argument. It has no bearing on the art or if it is CMA, JMA, IndoMA, made up, or an amalgam. You are now being silly. Do I need to list all the US school that make trips to Shaolin, that are respected, that don't do modern wushu? Remeber many of these schools have no real relation to Shaolin.

[Judge Pen]

That one wasn't too bad. A bit sluggish, but not bad. I've never studied Guan Dao, so I don't know what it's supposed to be like, but assuming he's a relative beginner it looks pretty good. If it's a Longfist-ish form I'd guess that those places where he takes several slow steps should be "xing-bu," a kind of controlled running.

Keep them coming and maybe I'll upgrade my opinion of SD from "total fraud that I wish would disappear" to "an okay activity for Americans with no access to more authentic CMA."

I wonder if Mr. Language expert (Tatooedmonk) can answer my question about the Chinese characters for the names of Ie Man-ching and Su Kong Tai-jin.

Unfortunatley, I'm not a relative beginner, but I acknowledge that I need more practice on demoing forms. The point wasn't my skill (which I know my strengths and weaknesses) but to demonstrate the form as it is clearly a CMA form and not JMA or whatever else people accuse SD of being. If you would take the time to read this thread from the beginning, you will see a lengthy discussion on the fine and not so fine points of my personal expression of this form.

[onyomi]

Okay, you can blame the students for not trying hard enough and the teachers for sending students on to the next form before they're ready, but there are two major questions to be answered:

1. Do the teachers, in fact, know what they're doing? Have they learned these forms and systems at more than a perfunctory level and can they really apply them? Do they have a full understanding of the systems including training techniques other than forms (drills, pair drills, standing exercises, qigong, sparring techiques, etc.)
2. If the answer to number one is yes (and I don't suspect it is), why don't the teachers slow down the pace of the forms and focus on other things, only moving students on to new forms (and styles) when they have a good handle on the old ones? Like I said, it takes years to get a handle on Praying Mantis alone. I'm sure the same is true of Xingyi, Bagua, 5 Animal, etc.

I can see that some SDers, like JPenn, do work hard and gain some decent ability, but my impression of the video is less that any lacking is because of JPenn's own effort, but rather that whoever instructed him was no expert in the use of the weapon in the first place.

So somebody post a video of someone doing SD that any SDer would agree is good SD. That's the reason I posted a video of my teacher and not myself (also I don't have a digital video camera). If it's me, I can always say, "well, I don't really represent the system cuz I've only been doing it a few years, plus I was tired at the time, plus I made mistakes here and here, plus, my teacher's WAY better, etc. etc."

By posting a video of my teacher, though I'm sure they aren't flawless, I'm posting an example of what I think good forms should look like. I have no issues with these forms. I think they are excellent performances. I'd say I've seen him go much faster, or that he's much more impressive in person, but despite those qualifications, I'm comfortable saying that his performances represent how our system should be done. If you have a criticism of said videos, then that can be said to be a legitimate criticism of our system, as opposed to just a criticism of that particular person's particular performance.

So where's the good SD? Where's Sin Te doing something other than just "fooling around" or chatting? Where's a higher-ranking SD teacher whom everyone in SD accepts as good at forms doing forms? This is the only way we can make an accurate evaluation of the system--by seeing people who represent it, not performances that even SDers themselves will criticize.

I know by putting up a video and saying "I think this is excellent," you kind of put yourself in a vulnerable position in that you can't then turn around and say, "that guy was a beginner, I was tired, etc." but that's the only way to convince anybody.

For further comparison, here's my shifu doing some traditional PM empty hand forms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj9ygvXt4x0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFRIkjRd_VY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcSerD0uGj4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVGCXHxiDHk

Are there any videos of SD Beng Bu or Meihua we can compare these to? Or any PM other than just "Tanglang-quan"?

[BoulderDawg]

So where's the good SD? Where's Sin Te doing something other than just "fooling around" or chatting? Where's a higher-ranking SD teacher whom everyone in SD accepts as good at forms doing forms? This is the only way we can make an accurate evaluation of the system--by seeing people who represent it, not performances that even SDers themselves will criticize.

I know by putting up a video and saying "I think this is excellent," you kind of put yourself in a vulnerable position in that you can't then turn around and say, "that guy was a beginner, I was tired, etc." but that's the only way to convince anybody.

You post links to your teacher. What about your videos?

You're so quick to present yourself as a martial arts expert and criticize the Shao-lin Do forms and participates I think we should see your videos. Show us the correct way to do something and don't refer to your teacher.

>>>>This is the only way we can make an accurate evaluation of the system<<<

I didn't know we were being judged.......didn't really care!:D

[onyomi]

You post links to your teacher. What about your videos?

You're so quick to present yourself as a martial arts expert and criticize the Shao-lin Do forms and participates I think we should see your videos. Show us the correct way to do something and don't refer to your teacher.

>>>>This is the only way we can make an accurate evaluation of the system<<<

I didn't know we were being judged.......didn't really care!:D

I just answered this question in the previous post. Also, I never said I was a master. That's the problem, in fact. Even someone who had been taking authentic Mantis for 6 months would say Sin's Mantis is all wrong.

You may not care what other people think about SD, but apparently JPenn and others do. The guan-dao video, for example, does SD more credit than I would have previously given it. If you want to improve peoples' impression of SD then post some good videos of it or maybe explain to me in detail SD's mantis training program and theories. If you really don't care what people think, then there's no need to participate in the discussion.

[godzillakungfu]

I know by putting up a video and saying "I think this is excellent," you kind of put yourself in a vulnerable position in that you can't then turn around and say, "that guy was a beginner, I was tired, etc." but that's the only way to convince anybody.

Yet, this is exactly what you are doing. Trust me I have said it before and I'll say it again, there are huge problems in Chinese Shao-Lin Center. Do, you honestly think these issues haven't been discussed?


If you have some proof, that you found in Indonesia, that proves SD/Chinese Shao-Lin center is crap then post it okay. I mean all this other crap you are spouting is ridiculous and proves no point.

[onyomi]

Yet, this is exactly what you are doing. Trust me I have said it before and I'll say it again, there are huge problems in Chinese Shao-Lin Center. Do, you honestly think these issues haven't been discussed?


If you have some proof, that you found in Indonesia, that proves SD/Chinese Shao-Lin center is crap then post it okay. I mean all this other crap you are spouting is ridiculous and proves no point.

I don't have to prove SD is fake. You have to prove it's real. I can't prove there never was a Shaolin Grandmaster that looked like a dog. It's impossible to prove a negative. You have to prove the positive. No one can even give me the names of Ie and Su in Chinese characters for me to attempt to verify their existence outside SD sources.

All I'm saying is that the SD history is extremely suspect and that I and most other CMAists will need more proof to believe it. I'm also saying that 99% of what I've read and seen of SD on various schools' websites, etc. also lead me to believe that not only is the lineage fake, but the instruction is poor. If you want to convince me that SD instruction isn't always poor and that some SDers do know what they're doing, then I'd have to see more videos of SD that don't look like a joke.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just giving my opinion that SD seems fake and I wouldn't recommend anyone who asked me about it touch it with a ten foot pole, an opinion most non SD CMAists share. If you want to improve SD's image then the burden is on you to provide more evidence why it's good. Otherwise, the situation remains the same, i.e. no respect for SD outside of SD.

[godzillakungfu]

I don't have to prove SD is fake. You have to prove it's real. I can't prove there never was a Shaolin Grandmaster that looked like a dog. It's impossible to prove a negative. You have to prove the positive. No one can even give me the names of Ie and Su in Chinese characters for me to attempt to verify their existence outside SD sources.

All I'm saying is that the SD history is extremely suspect and that I and most other CMAists will need more proof to believe it. I'm also saying that 99% of what I've read and seen of SD on various schools' websites, etc. also lead me to believe that not only is the lineage fake, but the instruction is poor. If you want to convince me that SD instruction isn't always poor and that some SDers do know what they're doing, then I'd have to see more videos of SD that don't look like a joke.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just giving my opinion that SD seems fake and I wouldn't recommend anyone who asked me about it touch it with a ten foot pole, an opinion most non SD CMAists share. If you want to improve SD's image then the burden is on you to provide more evidence why it's good. Otherwise, the situation remains the same, i.e. no respect for SD outside of SD.

I don't have anything to prove. A vid was posted, people questioned but, said it has CMA flavor. Suddenly, when the thread becames remotely favorable about THE PERFORMANCE, the whole SD is fake/crap/unreal appears.

I'm asking if you found something that proves it isn't CMA show your cards. I know where I stand on SD/Chinese Shao-Lin Centers now I got you to state where you stand. That is all I wanted.

No what you are doing is turning a thread on A CMA form into a SD is fake thread. You are retreading the 1000+ post monster here by using vcd rips of your master.

I know what SD is and isn't and I have my opinions. I wouldn't recommend anyone with self defense aspirations to train with you.

See how that works?

[onyomi]

The thread was, "here are some SD videos that show how SD is authentic CMA." I disagreed that said videos represented authentic CMA, so I posted my opinion. There was a video linked to of Sin doing PM, which is the style I study. I also saw videos of jian and drunken style that I considered to be completely wrong. I commented that his PM was no good, citing specific reasons. Other people started arguing that my PM must be contemporary Wushu and not combat-applicable because it's not as rigid as Sin's, so I posted videos to show what I think authentic PM, jian and dao are supposed to be like. I was not trying to hijack the thread into another "is Shaolin-do for real," but neither was I going to just say nothing when I saw a style I do so poorly represented. I used the videos not to say, "look, SD sucks because none of the videos are as good as mine." I was saying, "look, that's not how you use the jian or do Praying Mantis--here's what it's supposed to be like."

Anyway, sorry I got off an a tangent. I'll limit any further comments I make in this thread to the specific performances and videos posted.

[tattooedmonk]

The thread was, "here are some SD videos that show how SD is authentic CMA." I disagreed that said videos represented authentic CMA, so I posted my opinion. There was a video linked to of Sin doing PM, which is the style I study. I also saw videos of jian and drunken style that I knew to be nonsense from my own study of the same. I commented that his PM was no good, citing specific reasons. Other people started arguing that my PM must be contemporary Wushu and not combat-applicable because it's not as rigid as Sin's, so I posted videos to show what I think authentic PM, jian and dao are supposed to be like. I was not trying to hijack the thread into another "is Shaolin-do for real," but neither was I going to just say nothing when I saw a style I do so poorly represented. I used the videos not to say, "look, SD sucks because none of the videos are as good as mine." I was saying, "look, that's not how you use the jian or do Praying Mantis--here's what it's supposed to be like."

Anyway, I'll limit any further comments I make in this thread to the specific performances and videos posted.The forms are authentic and chinese in origin..it is just the practitioners show no signs of this..(Refering to the videos posted on the csc website) ..another reason that you can not see it is because the Gi throws you and many people off...it is a psychological thing ....but I will not get into that now..

who are you to judge whether someones PM is any good? you said yourself that you are no master..... you have not shown us "your" version of what " real pm" is or looks like...you have posted youtube videos of master leong(sp?)...which is highly suspect.....yes ...he does great forms ...and in my opinion has the proper amount of everything that is needed...

Now here is one that makes me laugh.....you have posted what "YOU THINK " is real praying mantis .....here is the problem .....you did not think... at least not very much..you have to use facts here...which can be followed by your opinion....as long as it is based on the facts..... not your opinions based on nothing of any substantial or factual basis.....


Another one of your comments was.... that anyone with at least 6 months of training in praying mantis could see that he was doing it wrong...How is that possible?? did you think that one through before you posted it??...that is just plain stupid and shows your ignorance on this subject...

Can you prove that Master Leong is your master?? where is his lineage from? can you provide documented proof of it and his connection to that lineage??until you can... your words mean nothing to me and as far as I am concerned...a waste of space...

and by the way....Please post your mantis forms with you perfoming them....this is another way to prove that you know anything about the subject.....

[Radhnoti]

Su Kong Tai Djin

(Sigung) = Grandmaster

Sigung....SuKong....Sigung...SuKong....Chinese to English....sigung becomes Su Kong...

I think everytime someone says Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Djin they're saying grandmaster twice.

GM Sin never says he met the first SD grandmaster, just that his teacher told him stories about him.
My personal opinion is that GM Tai Djin had not nearly so much to do with shaolin-do as GM Ie.

[onyomi]

The forms are authentic and chinese in origin..it is just the practitioners show no signs of this..(Refering to the videos posted on the csc website) ..another reason that you can not see it is because the Gi throws you and many people off...it is a psychological thing ....but I will not get into that now..

who are you to judge whether someones PM is any good? you said yourself that you are no master..... you have not shown us "your" version of what " real pm" is or looks like...you have posted youtube videos of master leong(sp?)...which is highly suspect.....yes ...he does great forms ...and in my opinion has the proper amount of everything that is needed...

Now here is one that makes me laugh.....you have posted what "YOU THINK " is real praying mantis .....here is the problem .....you did not think... at least not very much..you have to use facts here...which can be followed by your opinion....as long as it is based on the facts..... not your opinions based on nothing of any substantial or factual basis.....


Another one of your comments was.... that anyone with at least 6 months of training in praying mantis could see that he was doing it wrong...How is that possible?? did you think that one through before you posted it??...that is just plain stupid and shows your ignorance on this subject...

Can you prove that Master Leong is your master?? where is his lineage from? can you provide documented proof of it and his connection to that lineage??until you can... your words mean nothing to me and as far as I am concerned...a waste of space...

and by the way....Please post your mantis forms with you perfoming them....this is another way to prove that you know anything about the subject.....

My teacher's name is Zhou. Kung-fu Loung is the name of his school. Even if I posted a video of myself doing a form you might say, "how do we know that's really you?" I get my info. about PM from him and he got his from a well-established master, Wang Songting.

I said someone with only six months of PM training would see something wrong with Sin's mantis because that's not how the Mantis hand is used, according to the way I've been taught. If you say "yes it is," then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[tattooedmonk]

Su Kong Tai Djin

(Sigung) = Grandmaster

Sigung....SuKong....Sigung...SuKong....Chinese to English....sigung becomes Su Kong...

I think everytime someone says Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Djin they're saying grandmaster twice.

GM Sin never says he met the first SD grandmaster, just that his teacher told him stories about him.
My personal opinion is that GM Tai Djin had not nearly so much to do with shaolin-do as GM Ie.I believe that the Su kong is in reference to Wu Kong the monkey king ( different dialect) Tai is great or grand as far the Djin I believe that is a made up name by the monks that found him so I would say that it is the Great Monkey King Djin or Djin the Great MonkeyKing...I maybe wrong.... Ie Chang Ming... Iron Palm Ming

[tattooedmonk]

My teacher's name is Zhou. Kung-fu Loung is the name of his school. Even if I posted a video of myself doing a form you might say, "how do we know that's really you?" I get my info. about PM from him and he got his from a well-established master, Wang Songting.

I said someone with only six months of PM training would see something wrong with Sin's mantis because that's not how the Mantis hand is used, according to the way I've been taught. If you say "yes it is," then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the correction....

You have not posted any documented proof ...are we suppose to just take your word for it?

and you are right we would have no way of knowing if it is you or not.



I am still curious as to how someone with only 6 months of training can come to any conclusions about this topic or ,any other, regarding the martial arts ??

according to what YOU have been taught?? come on....

Someone has to exhaust all there efforts, research from multiple sources, and study with different teachers/masters to come up with a definative conclusion that Master Sin is doing his mantis fingers right or wrong good or bad...

Have you done that? has anyone else here done that??...NO!!

these things are still a matter of perception....stay tuned folks..I am all over this... like white on rice....

[kwaichang]

Hey Guys, I viewed your clips and noticed many similarities of the Bong Bu Chien on the tape and the one I was taught in SD. Interestingly enough the movements that were in your teachers form was included in the Mantis I trained in the 1st 10 years earlier in my life of martial training. I demonstrated this form of the SD to my wife who is uneducated in the CMA or any martial art and even she could see the similarities of the two. I do not have a clip or I would post it . With permission of course,......however it is similar there are a few places where we do sweeps and there is switching of the foot work in the U Tube one. SD does a few punches at the end and the other guy does a traping type motion the ending is very similar. Boy I wish I was pretty with forms I would put one on here KC:)

[Judge Pen]

Boy I wish I was pretty with forms I would put one on here KC:)

Didn't stop me KC. :p

Onyomi, You asked some questions in a post a page or so back that I'll answer when I have more computer time (at home, I just breeze in and out for quick posts--family time is more important). Also, I'm planning to post some sparring clips of me against a represented "shaolin" guy (outside of SD), a mantis guy and a "tai chi" guy from the same tournament where I did the kwan dao form. The other "shaolin" guy took first, the mantis guy took second and I took third in advanced sparring. It might answer some questions on the applicability of SD against other arts.

[tattooedmonk]

Hey Guys, I viewed your clips and noticed many similarities of the Bong Bu Chien on the tape and the one I was taught in SD. Interestingly enough the movements that were in your teachers form was included in the Mantis I trained in the 1st 10 years earlier in my life of martial training. I demonstrated this form of the SD to my wife who is uneducated in the CMA or any martial art and even she could see the similarities of the two. I do not have a clip or I would post it . With permission of course,......however it is similar there are a few places where we do sweeps and there is switching of the foot work in the U Tube one. SD does a few punches at the end and the other guy does a traping type motion the ending is very similar. Boy I wish I was pretty with forms I would put one on here KC:)thanx !! This was going to be my next post but you beat me to it...good job!!

This is a major point in the debate..and if someone that has NO martial arts experience can see the similarities........ then my next question is how can a person with only six months training say that it does not??

food for thought.....

[kwaichang]

You know there is alot of debate about GM Th'e and all that , but I will say this, in 1982 I fought a demo fight of 3 rounds against Anthony "the amp"Elmore the Heavy Weight Kick Boxing Champ at that time. He hits HARD but I just viewed my DVD of the Mantis Training by GM Th'e and I would rather get hit 20 times by Anthony Elmore than once by GM Th'e this is just based on his demonstration of the hand attacks in Mantis. The dvd is circa 93-4 KC:D

[kwaichang]

JP many take martial arts to rid themselves of ego subjecting yourself to the scrutiny of those who may or maynot know what the h//l they are talking about is a new and innovative way YO GO FOR IT kc:eek:

[tattooedmonk]

If any of these guys studied with us, MasterThe', or any of the masters... I believe that they would retract what they have said and very quickly admit how wrong they are!!

The praying mantis is on of the most effective and dangerous systems there is...I refer to the vhs version of that often ,as well as many others, and I am still amazed at how much true power Master The' has just demonstrating the conditioning of the mantis....

[kwaichang]

PLEASE pm ME I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE IF YOU ARE SO INCLINED KC:)

[tattooedmonk]

[QUOTE=tattooedmonk]

That was the point of my post db. Wow I wish I could be a SD monk like you...do you now?? it can be arranged...

[Judge Pen]

Okay, you can blame the students for not trying hard enough and the teachers for sending students on to the next form before they're ready, but there are two major questions to be answered:

1. Do the teachers, in fact, know what they're doing? Have they learned these forms and systems at more than a perfunctory level and can they really apply them? Do they have a full understanding of the systems including training techniques other than forms (drills, pair drills, standing exercises, qigong, sparring techiques, etc.)

Yes (and this goes for my school--I'm sure that other schools do too, but I can't really comment on them), my teachers know what they are doing. While they are guilty of, at times, of allowing one to move on to a form more quickly then maybe they should, but the learning and teaching of that form doesn't end when the form is taught and the students can do the form by themselves. Drills are taught well before a form is actually learned. Applications are stressed and sparring from the moves of that form are taught. In all honesty, I may have a form 5 years or more before I feel like I really understand it. During that time, I may learn several new forms, but I'm continuing to study and break-down the material that was taught before me. If I have a question about a theory, principal or an applicaiton all I have to do is ask and they will take as much time as I need to explain it to me. Most of my upper-rank material has specific qi gong and two man sets to go along with the forms as well.

2. If the answer to number one is yes (and I don't suspect it is), why don't the teachers slow down the pace of the forms and focus on other things, only moving students on to new forms (and styles) when they have a good handle on the old ones? Like I said, it takes years to get a handle on Praying Mantis alone. I'm sure the same is true of Xingyi, Bagua, 5 Animal, etc.

While I have the gross motor movement for xingyi, Bagua and 5 animal, I'm still working on them to truley grasp the nuiances of each. It may take me several years to get that, but it's the journey that is fun. At least with my teachers, they will teach you at whatever pace you want. If all you are interested in is a cursory understanding of the form, then fine. You will get in good shape and learn to spar. I have a goal to make it through a certain set of athletic material while I can still move relatively well and then I plan to slow down, pick a handful of forms that I enjoy, and really focus on them more. But that's my own goal. Kung fu is what you put into it, but I've never found my teacher's lacking in answering questions that I have.

I can see that some SDers, like JPenn, do work hard and gain some decent ability, but my impression of the video is less that any lacking is because of JPenn's own effort, but rather that whoever instructed him was no expert in the use of the weapon in the first place.

No, I disagree. The issues of stances, intent, and sloppy form are mine. My teachers are better than me and offer the same constructive criticism to me on my performance. They also work well with everyone's limitations. They are interested in effort, heart and spirit more than technical skill. There are moves in forms that are almost impossible to do correctly. You are not held back because you cannot do a form correctly, but you will be held back if you put no effort in trying to better yourself everytime you do the form. At least in my experience.

So somebody post a video of someone doing SD that any SDer would agree is good SD. That's the reason I posted a video of my teacher and not myself (also I don't have a digital video camera). If it's me, I can always say, "well, I don't really represent the system cuz I've only been doing it a few years, plus I was tired at the time, plus I made mistakes here and here, plus, my teacher's WAY better, etc. etc."

I can only offer myslef. I'm not going to put videos of my teachers unless they offer it first. Honestly, it's a silly little internet debate...why would I bing my teachers into it? So, at least from me, I'm the best you will see (and it's not that good)

By posting a video of my teacher, though I'm sure they aren't flawless, I'm posting an example of what I think good forms should look like. I have no issues with these forms. I think they are excellent performances. I'd say I've seen him go much faster, or that he's much more impressive in person, but despite those qualifications, I'm comfortable saying that his performances represent how our system should be done. If you have a criticism of said videos, then that can be said to be a legitimate criticism of our system, as opposed to just a criticism of that particular person's particular performance.

Your teacher is very good. I can see no flaw in his performance, but I'm not attacking your system and style. I could easily say "that's not how we do it", but that means/proves nothing. But, again, I don't know if that's how its supposed to be done, I only know that your teacher moves very well and has beatuiful form w/out sacrificing martial intent.



Message is too short because I entered everything in the quote.

[tattooedmonk]

PLEASE pm ME I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE IF YOU ARE SO INCLINED KC:)if you tell me who you are first!!

[Judge Pen]

if you tell me who you are first!!

I'll take you up on that, but I have a good guess from your posts. :)

[Golden Tiger]

It always amazes me how much is posted over the weekend. Get out, enjoy the weather, heck, even train a little bit.

Then again, it is good reading while I drink my coffee on a slow Monday morning....:D

[Judge Pen]

It always amazes me how much is posted over the weekend. Get out, enjoy the weather, heck, even train a little bit.

Then again, it is good reading while I drink my coffee on a slow Monday morning....:D


I was up late last night after the mrs went to sleep. :D

[tattooedmonk]

Message is too short because I entered everything in the quote.that was a great post...good job!!

[Shaolindynasty]

There are moves in forms that are almost impossible to do correctly.


????????????????????:confused:

I don't understand, like what?

[godzillakungfu]

That's kinda funny they don't let y'all compete. I guess that mentallity really adds to the fire of some around here. I can hear them now, "Why don't they want you to compete? What are they hiding?" That kinda crap.
Only when it suits their purpose.

I figured I'd answer this here since this thread is off topic. I don't want to ruin JP's sparring thread.

I'll put a little perspective on onyomi's comments about videos.

We had 2 people win a tournament. I'll try to find out the name of the tournament. The Grand Champion of that tournament did a PM form. The one that supposedly doesn't exist, you know Tang Lang Chien. The winner is a Chinese Shao-Lin Center student 3rd degree as I recall.

Funny thing is, he is doing a form, in one of the vids, on the CSC website that everyone is complaining about on this thread.

So, it just goes to show that you can't just comment on net videos.

[Judge Pen]

????????????????????:confused:

I don't understand, like what?

In one of our Hua forms you start out in a left leg bow stance and throw a right leg straight kick. You are supposed to turn 270 degrees and stomp with the right leg, but the right leg is supposed to stay straight up in the air (like a full american split). Not impossible, but I've seen very few people in any style that can actually do it.

[BlueTravesty]

just curious, but how the heck is one supposed to stomp their right leg AND keep it in the air? If I misunderstood, forgive me, but does the leg come back up AFTER the stomp?

[Judge Pen]

just curious, but how the heck is one supposed to stomp their right leg AND keep it in the air? If I misunderstood, forgive me, but does the leg come back up AFTER the stomp?

You misunderstood. The right leg comes up in a straight leg kick, then you turn 270 with the leg straight in the air and then you stomp.

[kwaichang]

Which Hua are you speaking of KC

[BlueTravesty]

You misunderstood. The right leg comes up in a straight leg kick, then you turn 270 with the leg straight in the air and then you stomp.

Ahhhhh now I get it, thanks :)

[Judge Pen]

Which Hua are you speaking of KC

End of 1 and 3.

[kwaichang]

Thats an interesting interpretation of the move you are speaking of near the end I have never seen or heard of it being done that way. KC:confused:

[Leto]

We had 2 people win a tournament. I'll try to find out the name of the tournament. The Grand Champion of that tournament did a PM form. The one that supposedly doesn't exist, you know Tang Lang Chien. The winner is a Chinese Shao-Lin Center student 3rd degree as I recall.


I remember that. The "grand champion" was a first black attending the Colorado Springs CSC at the time. He placed first in forms and sparring, I think. His counterpart came in first in weapons. She did the 36 posture Tai Chi iron fan form, and was also a first black at the time, from Colorado Springs. I believe the tournament was called battle of the creek, maybe? in Cripple Creek, or Battle of the Peak, or something like that. I believe it mainly consisted of schools from the local area around Colorado Springs. It was hosted/orgnaized by the American Kempo Karate schools which are so darn prolific down there. The rules of the tourney have since changed, to make it less friendly to non-AKK and karate people. (which is why no one from CSC bothers to go there anymore)

As for the Topic of the thread, I can come at the question from a different angle than most of the forum participants here. My first style is Okinawan Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu Karate, which I have been practicing for fifteen years. I can say first hand that there is no Okinawan Karate "flavor" in anything taught at CSC/SD. I don't have experience in any other Chinese styles, and I can't say for sure where GM The's material came from, but it is not Okinawan or Japanese Karate.
The staff forms practiced in CSC are nothing like Okinawan bo kata. Different methods completely. The cha/sai form of CSC is not Okinawan either. The stances and techniques are not like any kobudo kata you will find.
I will say that CSC's, in my opinion, do not hold students to a high enough standard, and promote people too easily and quickly. This extends sometimes even to instructors, though generally the instructors in the west are picked or screened by the masters to make sure they represent the style to an adequate level. The material, in the hands of people who are talented and train hard, can look good and be used effectively. This is the problem for the most part, and not that the material is necessarily inauthentic or misunderstood. I would love to find out where it all actually came from, but have pretty much given up on that. I keep training and don't worry about the labels for now.

[onyomi]

I believe it mainly consisted of schools from the local area around Colorado Springs. It was hosted/orgnaized by the American Kempo Karate schools which are so darn prolific down there.

Exactly. Go do that form at a tournament where people know anything about Praying Mantis and it may not fair so well.

[godzillakungfu]

Exactly. Go do that form at a tournament where people know anything about Praying Mantis and it may not fair so well.
You really need to stop. I really don't like when people misrepresent themselves while trying to tear someone else down. It is very disrespectful.

Honestly, if you want to pick apart the art logically, I might actually help you in that respect.

[godzillakungfu]

I will say that CSC's, in my opinion, do not hold students to a high enough standard, and promote people too easily and quickly. This extends sometimes even to instructors, though generally the instructors in the west are picked or screened by the masters to make sure they represent the style to an adequate level. The material, in the hands of people who are talented and train hard, can look good and be used effectively. This is the problem for the most part, and not that the material is necessarily inauthentic or misunderstood. I would love to find out where it all actually came from, but have pretty much given up on that. I keep training and don't worry about the labels for now.

They did not so much anymore.

[Judge Pen]

Thats an interesting interpretation of the move you are speaking of near the end I have never seen or heard of it being done that way. KC:confused:

Master Garry often refers to that move as one that is never done right (including himself). We should compare notes on Hua soon. It should be interesting to observe the differences in our teachers' interpretation on these forms.

[Golden Tiger]

start out in a left leg bow stance and throw a right leg straight kick. You are supposed to turn 270 degrees and stomp with the right leg, but the right leg is supposed to stay straight up in the air (like a full american split).

Interesting. I assume that you are refering to the move where one hand is open, one is a fist, then kick between them, stomp, chop/kick, fan low....etc.....


I don't remember it myself as a 270 move. More of a 180. Interesting. I could do it either way mind you.....:D

[tattooedmonk]

Exactly. Go do that form at a tournament where people know anything about Praying Mantis and it may not fair so well.check this out ...lets agree to disagree...this has gone on way too long and has corrupted another thread...you have continued on this path and have refused to stop...

.....you find non intrinsic things to continue to focus on ..now I will ask for the sake of the group and the arts themselves ...can you stop this bs now?? You are too judgemental ( heavy emphasis on the mental)and refuse to see anything other than your own way in the light of intelligent and acurrate information .....why do you continue with this with no apparent end in sight??? ...

.....you continue to choose ignorance and to me that is disturbing...what this is saying is that somewhere in the back of your mind you know what we claim is possible ( but not highly probable) and that because it goes so far against( it really does not) that if messes with your mind..and that you have NO philosophical foundation or backround ( or else you would be more humble)....

..you ignore all of what we say just to save face, for yourself ,your master, and the kung fu community...get over yourself, your preconceived ideas of what is and what is not, find the truth in what is being said here, and move on to the next stage in your training..because this is definately holding you back...

[tattooedmonk]

????????????????????:confused:

I don't understand, like what?..someone has to or had to be able to do them right or they would not be there or exist

[Golden Tiger]

On the PM stuff (and its the same stuff I went over before with onyomi on MAP), there are 2 distinct styles taught within SD. One is the Tang Lang sets and the other is the 7* stuff that was introduced to us in the seminars in the early 90's.

The Tang Lang sets were the more "praying mantis-ish" forms with the single hooked finger as the primary fist. It is used for hooking, picking, striking, trapping, etc. Where it originated, who knows. I was probably told but didn't remember. M. Hiang was the one that taught most of it out and he was not that big on story telling...didn't make you fight better.

The newer sets taught out were more similar to what onyomi would be used to (even though he can't seem to realise that what others might learn different from him could still work). Now I have seem a few within SD that really like the sets and they can do them very well. Me personally, I don't care for them that much.

As for onyomi's repeated critisms...it gets his rocks off. Can't hate him for that. But sometime I do wonder...

The vids he always is eager to post are clearly "kung fu theater-esque" productions pulled from a DVD. (The last one even had the capture software mark on it). No camcorder stuff, no first person relationship at all. So tell me onyomi...do you actually study with this guy or is it more of a onesided master in a box kind of relationship? You seem to know a lot in terms of words...but do you actually practice with a live person?

[onyomi]

On the PM stuff (and its the same stuff I went over before with onyomi on MAP), there are 2 distinct styles taught within SD. One is the Tang Lang sets and the other is the 7* stuff that was introduced to us in the seminars in the early 90's.

The Tang Lang sets were the more "praying mantis-ish" forms with the single hooked finger as the primary fist. It is used for hooking, picking, striking, trapping, etc. Where it originated, who knows. I was probably told but didn't remember. M. Hiang was the one that taught most of it out and he was not that big on story telling...didn't make you fight better.

The newer sets taught out were more similar to what onyomi would be used to (even though he can't seem to realise that what others might learn different from him could still work). Now I have seem a few within SD that really like the sets and they can do them very well. Me personally, I don't care for them that much.

As for onyomi's repeated critisms...it gets his rocks off. Can't hate him for that. But sometime I do wonder...

The vids he always is eager to post are clearly "kung fu theater-esque" productions pulled from a DVD. (The last one even had the capture software mark on it). No camcorder stuff, no first person relationship at all. So tell me onyomi...do you actually study with this guy or is it more of a onesided master in a box kind of relationship? You seem to know a lot in terms of words...but do you actually practice with a live person?

Yes, I actually study with him in person, though I don't know how I can prove it to you other than that I have knowledge and experience outside of what is taught in his DVDs. I'm actually in the background of a picture on his website, though I don't feel like telling you which.

[onyomi]

On the PM stuff (and its the same stuff I went over before with onyomi on MAP), there are 2 distinct styles taught within SD. One is the Tang Lang sets and the other is the 7* stuff that was introduced to us in the seminars in the early 90's.


In other words, within SD there's the fake Mantis that somebody made up and the real Mantis people tried to reincorporate into it later.

[godzillakungfu]

Yes, I actually study with him in person, though I don't know how I can prove it to you other than that I have knowledge and experience outside of what is taught in his DVDs. I'm actually in the background of a picture on his website, though I don't feel like telling you which.
Wow, so you are in Taiwan right now? Cool. Why do you have NO in your location? Or do you go for sabaticals for training?

[godzillakungfu]

In other words, within SD there's the fake Mantis that somebody made up and the real Mantis people tried to reincorporate into it later.
Every form that ever existed is made up.

[onyomi]

Wow, so you are in Taiwan right now? Cool. Why do you have NO in your location? Or do you go for sabaticals for training?

I am actually in New Orleans right now, to visit my family, but I've been living and working in Taiwan the past couple of years.

[onyomi]

Every form that ever existed is made up.

I meant made up by Sin or Hiang.

However, this does get me to one point I'll praise SD on--it seems like it might be getting better. I'm still of the opinion that it started out as some kind of strange CMAish hybrid created by Sin from books and movies (I know, agree to disagree), but it seems that by inviting real masters of real styles to come teach at SD schools, maybe they are gradually incorporating more and more authentic CMA into their curriculum. In this way, it ironically starts to function as the Shaolin temple supposedly once did--i.e. as a place where practitioners of various styles can get together and compare. If it continues to do this and sets higher standards for its instructors and promotions then it might one day be halfway decent. Then all they'd need is to get rid of the gis and switch to standard Mandarin Pinyin for their romanizations and almost everyone would believe it was really CMA.

[Judge Pen]

Interesting. I assume that you are refering to the move where one hand is open, one is a fist, then kick between them, stomp, chop/kick, fan low....etc.....


I don't remember it myself as a 270 move. More of a 180. Interesting. I could do it either way mind you.....:D

Yep, that's the sequence. Now I've never been good at geometry, but you are in a left-leg bow stance, kick between, and turn (stomp) you turn ends when you are facing forward (where your right-shoulder is located when you started the sequence.) Isn't that 3/4 of a circle?

[Judge Pen]

..someone has to or had to be able to do them right or they would not be there or exist

That's why I said "almost impossible". I can't do short-form # 11 the way it's supposed to be done either. I've not seen anyone do all three kicks in the air, but I've been told that the way it should be done, if possible.

[godzillakungfu]

I meant made up by Sin or Hiang.

However, this does get me to one point I'll praise SD on--it seems like it might be getting better. I'm still of the opinion that it started out as some kind of strange CMAish hybrid created by Sin from books and movies (I know, agree to disagree), but it seems that by inviting real masters of real styles to come teach at SD schools, maybe they are gradually incorporating more and more authentic CMA into their curriculum. In this way, it ironically starts to function as the Shaolin temple supposedly once did--i.e. as a place where practitioners of various styles can get together and compare. If it continues to do this and sets higher standards for its instructors and promotions then it might one day be halfway decent. Then all they'd need is to get rid of the gis and switch to standard Mandarin Pinyin for their romanizations and almost everyone would believe it was really CMA.
Now I know you are ranting. Obviously you didn't read anything correctly. The above is not happening at all in the west. The guy who brought it up said it was frowned upon in his location.

There are a few schools incoporating grappling which, I think is a good thing.

[godzillakungfu]

That's why I said "almost impossible". I can't do short-form # 11 the way it's supposed to be done either. I've not seen anyone do all three kicks in the air, but I've been told that the way it should be done, if possible.
I can. It is all about balance and height not necessarily speed.

[Judge Pen]

I can. It is all about balance and height not necessarily speed.

Good for you. I'd love to see it. I've seen some wushu people do soemthing similar.

[godzillakungfu]

I bet you could, you look lighter than me in your vid. The biggest fear is dropping on your butt. Once you get over that it isn't hard.

Funny thing is we told this 13 year old kid how to do it and a week later he did.

Now of course I couldn't have a 13 year old noob do something I couldn't. So, it took about 3 hours, incoporated with other training.

[Judge Pen]

Nah, my biggest fear is tearing out another ACL.

[godzillakungfu]

Nah, my biggest fear is tearing out another ACL.
That is right forgot about your injury. Yeah, it does put a considerable strain on you ACL if you come down wrong.

[onyomi]

Now I know you are ranting. Obviously you didn't read anything correctly. The above is not happening at all in the west. The guy who brought it up said it was frowned upon in his location.

There are a few schools incoporating grappling which, I think is a good thing.

Well, you said they had some people add 7* forms more recently, so I intuited that you were getting people from other styles to come add to the SD curricullum. Or is the SD curricullum really pretty much the same as it was at inception?

[tattooedmonk]

I meant made up by Sin or Hiang.

However, this does get me to one point I'll praise SD on--it seems like it might be getting better. I'm still of the opinion that it started out as some kind of strange CMAish hybrid created by Sin from books and movies (I know, agree to disagree), but it seems that by inviting real masters of real styles to come teach at SD schools, maybe they are gradually incorporating more and more authentic CMA into their curriculum. In this way, it ironically starts to function as the Shaolin temple supposedly once did--i.e. as a place where practitioners of various styles can get together and compare. If it continues to do this and sets higher standards for its instructors and promotions then it might one day be halfway decent. Then all they'd need is to get rid of the gis and switch to standard Mandarin Pinyin for their romanizations and almost everyone would believe it was really CMA.Real styles and real masters??are you for real? is anything for real??

It is all based on a Chinese Shaolin System ...anything that has been added is obviously from the Japanese influence...it seems fitting ,to be honest with you, that the arts went out all over Asia and that Ie Chang Ming would go back around and pick it all back up and use it to modify the system...a true master, and truely Shaolin...

If the Tang Lang Chien form was made up by either Ie chang Ming or Master Sin...what would be the problem with that ?..seeing as the masters have done this for centuries....it would not surprise me...

actually Master Sin does not use the romanization wade/giles system.... he uses mandarin ..it is the students that use these not him.....

when master Sin teaches he gives a printout of the form with the chinese characters, their meanings, and the english translation to every move or set of moves in the forms...

At some point if you want us to take you seriously you are going to have to prove to us that you are who and what you say you are ...you have yet to respond to mine and many others request for documentation ,video ,or pictures of you doing anything involving the martial arts...I noticed that you stopped quoting my posts and continue with your line of dialog with others about the same old bullshido...go back a few pages and address some of these issues in your next post...until then...

..... I say you are full of BULLSHIDO!!!

[tattooedmonk]

Well, you said they had some people add 7* forms more recently, so I intuited that you were getting people from other styles to come add to the SD curricullum. Or is the SD curricullum really pretty much the same as it was at inception?What was said was that the 7* forms were just recently introduce to us in the mid 90's( they had not been released yet up until that point)...are you able to read and comprehend properly??you are very selective about what you pick out ,misquote, and take out of context...what is wrong with you??you intuited?? what does that mean??

[Judge Pen]

Well, you said they had some people add 7* forms more recently, so I intuited that you were getting people from other styles to come add to the SD curricullum. Or is the SD curricullum really pretty much the same as it was at inception?

No we haven't had other people come in to teach any 7* mantis. The mantis that Master Sin taught in the early 90s was different than some of the mantis that was taught our earlier. It all supposedly came form his teachers in Indonesia.

[godzillakungfu]

Well, you said they had some people add 7* forms more recently, so I intuited that you were getting people from other styles to come add to the SD curricullum. Or is the SD curricullum really pretty much the same as it was at inception?
No I never said that, you are mixing up my posts.

[B-Rad]

actually Master Sin does not use the romanization wade/giles system.... he uses mandarin ..it is the students that use these not him.....
Mandarin is just the language... wade/giles and pinyin are just ways of writing the language with the English alphabet.

[B-Rad]

Sorry, read further and saw that you meant he writes out the Chinese characters.

[Flying-Monkey]

Real styles and real masters??are you for real? is anything for real??

It is all based on a Chinese Shaolin System ...anything that has been added is obviously from the Japanese influence...it seems fitting ,to be honest with you, that the arts went out all over Asia and that Ie Chang Ming would go back around and pick it all back up and use it to modify the system...a true master, and truely Shaolin...

If the Tang Lang Chien form was made up by either Ie chang Ming or Master Sin...what would be the problem with that ?..seeing as the masters have done this for centuries....it would not surprise me...

actually Master Sin does not use the romanization wade/giles system.... he uses mandarin ..it is the students that use these not him.....

when master Sin teaches he gives a printout of the form with the chinese characters, their meanings, and the english translation to every move or set of moves in the forms...

At some point if you want us to take you seriously you are going to have to prove to us that you are who and what you say you are ...you have yet to respond to mine and many others request for documentation ,video ,or pictures of you doing anything involving the martial arts...I noticed that you stopped quoting my posts and continue with your line of dialog with others about the same old bullshido...go back a few pages and address some of these issues in your next post...until then...

..... I say you are full of BULLSHIDO!!!

Even though I still question your style, I must admit that you are defending your style well. (This is Mr. Horse)

[tattooedmonk]

Even though I still question your style, I must admit that you are defending your style well. (This is Mr. Horse)Thanx..I have been doing it for awhile...

[tattooedmonk]

Any body read these books?? They are from a fellow SD'er named Jeff Stone...they are a "young readers" books but they are spectacular...the first one is tiger ..it is out now in paper back and cost about 5 bucks..check them out

[humbleman]

I am considering ordering this d.v.d. if it's still available. Can anyone describe the contents and give an opinion??:confused:

[csckungfuguy]

yes its for real

[tattooedmonk]

yes its for realthe art is.... but not all the people in it are!!

[MasterKiller]

yes its for real


Which is more real...CSC kung fu or SDA kung fu?

[tattooedmonk]

Which is more real...CSC kung fu or SDA kung fu? depends on the teacher/ practioner..it all comes from the same source...all that matters really is that it is utilized properly and is effective in it its usage..

[MasterKiller]

depends on the teacher/ practioner..it all comes from the same source...all that matters really is that it is utilized properly and is effective in it its usage..

cop out, imo...

[tattooedmonk]

cop out, imo... what do you want to hear?? this is the truth..I have seen people on both sides good and bad...be specific then ... better at what... the business, teaching , forms,fighting... what ??I can only give a general answer if you only ask a general question...

[MasterKiller]

what do you want to hear?? this is the truth..I have seen people on both sides good and bad...be specific then ... better at what... the business, teaching , forms,fighting... what ??I can only give a general answer if you only ask a general question...

More specific? Who is a better fighter--Sin or Hiang?

[tattooedmonk]

More specific? Who is a better fighter--Sin or Hiang? back in the day I understand that master sin chased master hiang around the school kicking his ass .... master sin is the yin and master hiang is the yang...and if you ask me internal( yin) will always beat external( yang)...remember that grandmaster sin is the grandmaster of the art known as shaolin tao ...grandmaster hiang is the grandmaster of central shaolin ....both form the same source but different...my bet is on....master sin

[MasterKiller]

If Sin The still flies to Indonesia to learn from Ie's training partners, how can he be the grandmaster? Shouldn't the people teaching him outrank him?

[tattooedmonk]

If Sin The still flies to Indonesia to learn from Ie's training partners, how can he be the grandmaster? Shouldn't the people teaching him outrank him? what makes you say this??? why do you think master sin still goes to indonesia to train?? ie chang ming has been dead for years who would he train with?? master ie's training partners ?? they were students under master ie and master sin became a student under Ie as ...they were older brothers to master sin not uncles..at one time they did out rank him but when he was chosen to succeed master ie ..it stands to reason that this would change as soon as he learned all of what they learned and more...

[jstreet]

We have a Chinese Kenpo school in Austin. Is this the same thing as SD, OR vice versa?

http://www.austinkenpokarate.com/kenpo_belts.html

If you click on the belt colors in the link above it tells you what you need to know to advance to the next level. I have not heard anything negative about this style and their lineage makes no mention of Grand Master Sin The. I remember reading about Ed Parker mentioning Chinese Kenpo somewhere. I am just curious about this since there is so much controversy about SD.

[csckungfuguy]

what makes you say this??? why do you think master sin still goes to indonesia to train?? ie chang ming has been dead for years who would he train with?? master ie's training partners ?? they were students under master ie and master sin became a student under Ie as ...they were older brothers to master sin not uncles..at one time they did out rank him but when he was chosen to succeed master ie ..it stands to reason that this would change as soon as he learned all of what they learned and more...


when great grandmaster ie picked sin the to be the next grandmaster he exclusively trained sin for many years. 8+ hours a day.

master hsiang was trained by the other masters involved with the school but great grandmaster ie trained sin the exclusively.

there are photos and videos of sin teaching class and master shiang is still a 7th black at the time...if you even read master hsiangs website it says he was awarded 7th black almost 10 years after grandmaster ie passed away (going by what hsiangs website syas anyways) how did he go from 7th to 10th?

grandmaster sin kwang the is the grandmaster of the art of shao-lin do/chinese shaolin centers.

both businesses are taught material by sin the and no one else. the instructors have to pass the same tests in shaolin do as they do for csc.

is shaolin do real? yes it is. the art is very real. it is not a wushu school. we do not train to dance. we train to learn how to fight and use the weapons and forms of the shaolin monks.

everyone has their own opinions about this art. thats fine. but those of us that use it...and then compare it to other sources...can see how real it is. i myself have found nothing that can compare with what i learn here.


to each their own though. everyone should find their niche or home to study and train in. i have found mine.

[godzillakungfu]

Oh boy, here we go, another SD tale number 198.

See, talk about the merits or the style even the politics. I still haven't learned why every person has to add a new dimension to the history.


Oh yeah, yours is just another twist not at all factual.

[Judge Pen]

The Hiang and Sin split has nothing to do with CSC or SDA. My teacher trained under both before the split and says that Hiang very demanding and his classes were brutal, but Hiang wouldn't take the topo twenty fighters and himself agasin Sin. Is it true? I don't know; but it's what is said.

As far as Master Sin still training, shouldn't any master still work out with contemporaries? Other masters?