Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BM2]

I think MK may have made an honest mistake in that it was Master Hiang who went back and learned additional forms. Nothing wrong with that. And I would think that all the instructors together would be 900 forms. This is just me so it take it with a grain of salt, 900+ is the total number of forms in the system. I think that is the total of all the instructors knew collectively. 300+ was what was from the temple.
Master Hiang is an excellent instructor albeit more like military training.
Master Hiang got you to give 100%. He was just being old school. No slackers in his class.

[tattooedmonk]

The Hiang and Sin split has nothing to do with CSC or SDA. My teacher trained under both before the split and says that Hiang very demanding and his classes were brutal, but Hiang wouldn't take the topo twenty fighters and himself agasin Sin. Is it true? I don't know; but it's what is said.

As far as Master Sin still training, shouldn't any master still work out with contemporaries? Other masters?oh yes it does,because david and sharon where students under eric smith and eric smith was under master hiang. when master hiang and master sin split david and sharon followed master sin instead because they knew he had the complete art and that is when they decided to go and form their own group.It was not until later that eric smith decided to join master sin instead of following master hiang..this is all just what was told to me some odd 15 years ago...but it is the most consistant story I have heard in the art .

.yeah master hiang was brutal and unforgiving..I heard that he was heckled at one of the tournaments and told the guy to come down out of the bleachers and then kicked his ass..is it true? I do not know..just another story to add to the legends. I heard that if you made mistakes in his class that he would embarass you by making you wear nail polish..and if he saw you around town without it he would kick your ass...is it true? I do not know ...but some of the **** that i have heard over the past 15 + years has inspired me in the weirdest ways.

[jstreet]

We have a Chinese Kenpo school in Austin. Is this the same thing as SD, OR vice versa?

http://www.austinkenpokarate.com/kenpo_belts.html

If you click on the belt colors in the link above it tells you what you need to know to advance to the next level. I have not heard anything negative about this style and their lineage makes no mention of Grand Master Sin The. I remember reading about Ed Parker mentioning Chinese Kenpo somewhere. I am just curious about this since there is so much controversy about SD.


What are the differences between Chinese Kenpo Karate and SD?
I posted the above link and would like to know if there is a difference, or if it is similar to the SD Curriculum.

Thanks.

[Leto]

It's completely different. No matching curriculum, belt colors are not the same (SD has no orange or purple). There may be some things that are similar, but if they are they are called by different names. At a glance, there is no relation.

[BM2]

oh yes it does,because david and sharon where students under eric smith and eric smith was under master hiang. when master hiang and master sin split david and sharon followed master sin instead because they knew he had the complete art and that is when they decided to go and form their own group.It was not until later that eric smith decided to join master sin instead of following master hiang..this is all just what was told to me some odd 15 years ago...but it is the most consistant story I have heard in the art .

I heard that he was heckled at one of the tournaments and told the guy to come down out of the bleachers and then kicked his ass..is it true? I do not know..just another story to add to the legends. I heard that if you made mistakes in his class that he would embarass you by making you wear nail polish..and if he saw you around town without it he would kick your ass...is it true? I do not know ...but some of the **** that i have heard over the past 15 + years has inspired me in the weirdest ways.

I think some of this, well all of that stuff, should be better off in a PM. Better yet, delete it all. I know if someone was throwing around stuff that they heard about me from a second hand source, I wouldn't like to read about it on an online forum.Why don't you go google one of his students? I'm sure everyone needs a good laugh once in a while:D :p

[Golden Tiger]

oh yes it does,because david and sharon where students under eric smith and eric smith was under master hiang. when master hiang and master sin split david and sharon followed master sin instead because they knew he had the complete art and that is when they decided to go and form their own group.It was not until later that eric smith decided to join master sin instead of following master hiang..this is all just what was told to me some odd 15 years ago...but it is the most consistant story I have heard in the art .

Consistant perhaps...but not correct.

The big 3 at the time along with 2 that are no longer in the style all went with Master Sin. But as my good friend BM2 put it, its neither here nor there. ;)

[BM2]

I think some of this, well all of that stuff, should be better off in a PM. Better yet, delete it all. I know if someone was throwing around stuff that they heard about me from a second hand source, I wouldn't like to read about it on an online forum.Why don't you go google one of his students? I'm sure everyone needs a good laugh once in a while:D :p

What I meant by my statement of a good laugh, Master Hiang's students would laugh at what is being said.

[kristob]

Y'know, I always kind of had this little theory of mine that both Master Sin and Hiang were taught all the same things and whatnot, but when it came time to run the school, Sin wanted to name himself GM (afterall, there are discrepencies to Ie's death, and discrepencies to when Sin actually received the Red Belt - that is between SD and CSC), but Hiang didn't agree with what Sin was doing, and so he started his own school, and named himself Grandmaster.

Haha, just a little something that cooked in my head for awhile. But seriously, this debate gets way too convoluted everytime it happens.

[Judge Pen]

Y'know, I always kind of had this little theory of mine that both Master Sin and Hiang were taught all the same things and whatnot, but when it came time to run the school, Sin wanted to name himself GM (afterall, there are discrepencies to Ie's death, and discrepencies to when Sin actually received the Red Belt - that is between SD and CSC), but Hiang didn't agree with what Sin was doing, and so he started his own school, and named himself Grandmaster.

Haha, just a little something that cooked in my head for awhile. But seriously, this debate gets way too convoluted everytime it happens.

That argument would be stronger if it weren't for the fact that Hiang taught under Sin The for several years prior to going out on his own.

[humbleman]

:eek: speaking only for my incomplete sorry underbelt self, anything between masters sin and hsiang is between masters sin and hsiang and something i would really, really stay out of.

[humbleman]

I saw both of them on the K.E.T. video series. G.M. Sin laughs a lot more. Master Hsiang seemed a lot less laid back. They both have their own style of teaching. I remember a rather sinister joke made by G.M. Sin. Something about dying laughing. No thank you, kind Grandmaster.:eek: :eek: :eek:

[humbleman]

...shattering hand and look forward to merging it with what I am able to learn of hsing-i.:D

[godzillakungfu]

:eek: speaking only for my incomplete sorry underbelt self, anything between masters sin and hsiang is between masters sin and hsiang and something i would really, really stay out of.Well, that is you. Right or wrong people debate the merits of everything. No one is exempt.

[Golden Tiger]

Well, that is you. Right or wrong people debate the merits of everything. No one is exempt.


But when people debate, they generally have facts (not heresay) to back up their arguement. Unfortunately, when debating on this subject, very few know the facts. But don't get me wrong, I myself do not know all the facts but considering what is posted most of the time, neither does anyone else.

Case in point: Opinion-After the split, the brothers became sworn enemies and hated each other. A fight to the death was comiing any day.

Fact- While they don't vacation in Bali together, when they meet in public, they are both very pleasant and cordial to each other.

This whole distain for each other is more likely a good old fashion tinkle contest conjured up by the students of each.

Now back to the regularly scheduled bickering.......:D

[Golden Tiger]

...shattering hand and look forward to merging it with what I am able to learn of hsing-i.:D


Shattering Hand is a very nice set of techniques based on the movements of Hsing I. Many applications to a variety of attacks. Very nice indeed.

Hope you enjoy them

[kwaichang]

I hope you like the Shattering DVD KC good stuff :)

[Judge Pen]

1,894 posts on a topic started by "kung fu fan" who has all of 1 posts on KFO. :eek:

[tattooedmonk]

Well, that is you. Right or wrong people debate the merits of everything. No one is exempt. this is correct ...I did this to stir up the pot a little .just to see where people stood on a very old debate. I know that everyone has their opinion but to be honest this is what is the cause of the east west battle and I would like to settle it( to some degree) so maybe the masters can hear about it, learn from it ,and end the battle so that the art can be whole again

..funny thing is that I got some of this first and second hand ,and they could not tell me how it really happened either ..so ther ya go..

[Starchaser107]

Did this question ever get answered?
I'm assuming we all agreed it's about as effective as anything else right.
Other than that , this discussion has been pretty much an adventure even for a mostly observer such as myself.

[Citong Shifu]

I have never seen so many people rip on one style for so long... I'm really glad that I have only one person obsessed with hating on me or my style.... He's retarded and illiterate anyway, lol :D , so I dont know if that really counts :cool: . Anyway, Does anyone think this thread will be put to rest? Shaolin Do is what it is, does it really matter? Ok, talk to you all later.

[godzillakungfu]

But when people debate, they generally have facts (not heresay) to back up their arguement. Unfortunately, when debating on this subject, very few know the facts. But don't get me wrong, I myself do not know all the facts but considering what is posted most of the time, neither does anyone else.

Case in point: Opinion-After the split, the brothers became sworn enemies and hated each other. A fight to the death was comiing any day.

Fact- While they don't vacation in Bali together, when they meet in public, they are both very pleasant and cordial to each other.

This whole distain for each other is more likely a good old fashion tinkle contest conjured up by the students of each.

Now back to the regularly scheduled bickering.......:D
Yeah, so? My point still stands.

Fact--GMT has stated he hated his brother but, when his Father died he realized they needed to bury the grudge.

Still, it has and will be discussed. If you choose not to it is on you. Again that is your opinion just like humbleguy. If you noticed I speak nothing about the history I don't know. I speak about the west which I do know.

[Judge Pen]

Did this question ever get answered?
I'm assuming we all agreed it's about as effective as anything else right.
Other than that , this discussion has been pretty much an adventure even for a mostly observer such as myself.

I think you've answered it right there, but keeping this mega thread alive is better than another new one starting from scratch in a few months.

[Golden Tiger]

Yeah, so? My point still stands.

Fact--GMT has stated he hated his brother but, when his Father died he realized they needed to bury the grudge.


And this fact you got where? Did he happen to take you to the side and in a moment of personal revelation, decide that you were the one that should know of his feelings for his brother and other family business?

Your point stands, my point proven.:p


so maybe the masters can hear about it, learn from it ,and end the battle so that the art can be whole again


They do and they have but the outlook is not good.:(



..funny thing is that I got some of this first and second hand ,and they could not tell me how it really happened either

East vs. West= ego and isolationism
Lex vs. Tenn= ego, misunderstanding concerning origin of some forms,ego
Lex vs. Atl= ego, uniforms, ego, feeling of no respect, ego
Brother vs. brother= ego, tournament gone wild,deception,ego

See, you were just asking the wrong people;)

[BruceSteveRoy]

does this go down as the longest thread in KFM forum history?

[Judge Pen]

East vs. West= ego and isolationism
Lex vs. Tenn= ego, misunderstanding concerning origin of some forms,ego
Lex vs. Atl= ego, uniforms, ego, feeling of no respect, ego
Brother vs. brother= ego, tournament gone wild,deception,ego


Fair analysis. For Lex v. Tenn you said ego twice, but left out uniforms. :p

[MasterKiller]

Which brother pulls the most tail?

[BM2]

When I was at the BB meeting before the split, both brothers asked if their students would not take sides as to who was right and let them work it out. That didn't happen.
Later when they got together again they had another BB meeting. In it they asked that we act as one club and not take sides. That did not happen.
Although it has changed through the years,this is orgin of the right patch on our uniforms. Master Hiang wore it and we adapted it.
GT has pointed out that second hand, or worse, info is usually wrong. Ask him something in a PM as he is a long time ( read old man) student:D SIDE NOTE: You should see my medicine cabniet!

[godzillakungfu]

And this fact you got where? Did he happen to take you to the side and in a moment of personal revelation, decide that you were the one that should know of his feelings for his brother and other family business?Yes, actually it wasn't a private moment. He said it when east vs west came up. He told a very large group of us that he buried the hatchet(his term). Now being human we all know that doesn't fix everything. Doesn't mean there isn't anomosity. I took it as we need to bury East vs. West crap like what is going on between TTM, you, and me.

So, yes it is a fact he said this to us on the west.


Your point stands, my point proven.:p Mine not only stands but is proven. You feel I'm lying fine I honestly, don't care.

Remember I said right or wrong. Funny how you are overlooking that point. Facts don't play into my original statement. If most people argued facts alone there would be no such thing as the Grassy Knoll. There would be no debate on whether or not flight 800 was an accident or a missle attack. No one would sat the explosion at the pentagon was caused by Bush to further the war in Iraq.


Yes, I know GT is an oldster. I'd argue that is part of the problem on both sides. Defer to what the elders say because they know the truth. Well, if I did that I'd have to discount everything GMT has said. Yes, darn near everything.

You guys THINK you know the west, you don't.

Of course, I know nothing. So discount everything I said and I'll discount yours.

[Starchaser107]

does this go down as the longest thread in KFM forum history?

No. The Brink Of Death Thread in the ORA Forum is the longest thread in KFM History and this thread has a long way to go to catch up with our 9 thousand posts.

Practice your forum fu:D

[godzillakungfu]

No. The Brink Of Death Thread in the ORA Forum is the longest thread in KFM History and this thread has a long way to go to catch up with our 9 thousand posts.

Practice your forum fu:D
This is also a combination of multiple threads that were merged, during the upgrade last year.

[David Jamieson]

yeah this thread isn't even at "talk to the got chi girls" status.

[Judge Pen]

3rd place isnt' bad.

[Golden Tiger]

I took it as we need to bury East vs. West crap like what is going on between TTM, you, and me.

To be very honest, I wasn't aware that there was any crap going on between TTM, me and you. As for the east/west crap, it was settled in a meeting in Denver with D and S, DP, M. Sin, BL, ES and GG and a few others. All was great, there was going to be east west tourneys, D and S were coming back to Lexington to train from time to time. All was well....that is until the plane carrying the east took off.


You feel I'm lying fine I honestly, don't care.

Lying??? not at all. Heck, I don't know you. I just questioned if what you were relating was first person fact or second person heresay.



Yes, I know GT is an oldster. I'd argue that is part of the problem on both sides. Defer to what the elders say because they know the truth. Well, if I did that I'd have to discount everything GMT has said. Yes, darn near everything.


Hey now, I am not that old! But yes, I have been a student in SD for about 30 years now. Along with BM2, there is not much that has happened that we either weren't a part of or were watching with our own eyes.

I do find it strange that you think that is part of the problem. You obviously trust them enough to learn an art form from which is totally subjective but not when they try to pass on a little advise or history which coming from someone who was there is objective.



Remember I said right or wrong. Funny how you are overlooking that point. Facts don't play into my original statement.

Okay, I might have misunderstood. Are you spending your time trying to gain insight into the history of SD and Sin The and such, or are you just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing?


You guys THINK you know the west, you don't.

Nope. Why there is a big rift between the two? yes. But other than a few students I have met and worked out with over the years (shhhhh, wasn't supposed to tell) I know little or nothing about any of you.



Of course, I know nothing. So discount everything I said and I'll discount yours. :rolleyes:

[godzillakungfu]

To be very honest, I wasn't aware that there was any crap going on between TTM, me and you. :confused:



As for the east/west crap, it was settled in a meeting in Denver with D and S, DP, M. Sin, BL, ES and GG and a few others. All was great, there was going to be east west tourneys, D and S were coming back to Lexington to train from time to time. All was well....that is until the plane carrying the east took off.
Yes, I know.

I also know there was another recent meeting.






I do find it strange that you think that is part of the problem. You obviously trust them enough to learn an art form from which is totally subjective but not when they try to pass on a little advise or history which coming from someone who was there is objective. You lost me here.


Well, things change. I'm not talking history, I never refuted anything you said except the fact you felt I was talking hearsay. What this has to do with me ignoring your advice( if that is what you mean) is unknown.



Okay, I might have misunderstood. Are you spending your time trying to gain insight into the history of SD and Sin The and such, or are you just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing?

Show me where I brought up the brothers split in a knowing light. The reason I say TTM, you and me is because, through your writing, you are grouping us together.

Again I said right or wrong. I didn't say anything about the brothers history. I'm not researching where it came from. I usually say and ask questions in PMs.


Nope. Why there is a big rift between the two? yes. But other than a few students I have met and worked out with over the years (shhhhh, wasn't supposed to tell) I know little or nothing about any of you.This is why you will see me say west west west. I know very little of the East. I know enough to understand the problems here in the west.

[Baqualin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Tiger
East vs. West= ego and isolationism
Lex vs. Tenn= ego, misunderstanding concerning origin of some forms,ego
Lex vs. Atl= ego, uniforms, ego, feeling of no respect, ego
Brother vs. brother= ego, tournament gone wild,deception,ego

GT, from one old timer to another and a personal friend of GMS, I would like to thankyou for what you do for SD on this forum. Your break down above is correct. Why some people want to stir up the Hiang The situation I don't understand.....he keeps a very low profile and so does his students (us old timers know why). The rest is just typical politics that goes with the territory of large organizations....the further from the heart blood runs the more toxic it gets until it returns back to the heart. Anyway keep up the good work......I mostly just sit back and watch all the fun....it's safer that way. See you at the gym.....you should be able to figure out who I am.

[Radhnoti]

I don't even know GT's identity, but I also feel he's a class act. My friend that left shaolin-do credits him with stopping the death (well...physical injury anyway) threats and rants from Texas he was getting. GT entered into our situation in a good faith effort to help out, it didn't work out but it's good to know SD has folks like him willing to work for the good of the art.
I met lots of good people in SD...part of the reason I keep an eye on what's going on I suppose.

[Golden Tiger]

Quote:
See you at the gym.....you should be able to figure out who I am.

I am pretty much retired these days but I still am able to keep up with what goes on. And to be honest, I don't have a clue who you are. Welcome to the SD smack-fest though.

[SanHeChuan]

Radhnoti - My friend that left shaolin-do credits him with stopping the death (well...physical injury anyway) threats and rants from Texas he was getting.

Whoa whats this story? Who way threatening him and Why? :confused:

[csckungfuguy]

hey godzillakungfu pm me please...id like to know who you are..do you train in denver or boulder?

i train in denver but was most recently a colorado springs student.

see you in class...if your at the female immortal class ill be there tomorrow

[kwaichang]

THE YEAR IS 2036 THIRTY YEARS FROM NOW MANY OF US ARE 65-85 YEARS OLD WE HAVE BEEN TRAINING FOR 30 TO 70 YEARS. MANY OF THE MASTERS OF SD ARE GONE EITHER DEAD OR QUIT. MANY CONTINUE TO TEACH. ONE GROUP HAS SAMS ON ONE HAS SPANDEX, haha, ONE HAS RED KARATE UNIFORMS ANOTHER BLUE ANOTHER JUST A T-SHIRT AND PANTS. WHO KNOWS THAT MANY OF THE TRUTHS OF SD ARE GONE WITH THE MASTERS. THE ORIGIN IS KNOWN TO NO ONE BY THAT TIME. BUT WHO CARES WE ALL TRAIN SOME WIN SOME LOSE SOME DIE WITHOUT KNOWING. IT IS ALL MEANINGLESS. THE ART OF AND HISTORY OF SHAOLIN IS PERPETUATED BY THOSE WHO LOVE THE ART. NOTHING ANYONE SAYS OR DOES CAN CHANGE THAT. WE SHOULD ALL WORK IN UNISON TO PERPETUATE THE POSITIVE QUALITIES OF SHAOLIN WHETHER WITH SD OR WING CHUN OR WHAT EVER ART YOU CHOOSE TO STUDY. WE ALL CLAIM TO TRAIN IN SHAOLIN BUT MANY ARE WRAPPED UP IN THE EGO OF RIGHT AND WRONG WHEN ALL ANYONE IS DOING IS HURTING SHAOLIN AS A WHOLE. jUST TRAIN AND RESPECT ALL SOON IN THE BLINKING OF AN EYE IT WILL ALL BE OVER WITH THE EGOS AND STORIES JUST A BLURR OF A MEMORY. IT CANT BE STOPPED THE LOVE OF THE SHAOLIN WAY. SO THERE HOW SAD IT ALL IS. :o KC

[Starchaser107]

Word Kwaichang.

True thing

[BM2]

KC,
Four words:
TURN OFF CAPS LOCK

[godzillakungfu]

Ahhh my eye my eyes.


Sorry I'm not in Denver CSCkungfuguy. If you talk to me you could get in trouble.

[Judge Pen]

KC, great post. History will erode the ego and all that is left is what has been passed down from teacher to student. The petty debates of today will be immaterial tomorrow (just has they should be immaterial today).

[kwaichang]

Oops sorry for the cap locks but did it for emphasis I thought I should BOLD it but didnt KC:p :rolleyes: :confused: :)

[tattooedmonk]

East vs. West= ego and isolationism
Lex vs. Tenn= ego, misunderstanding concerning origin of some forms,ego
Lex vs. Atl= ego, uniforms, ego, feeling of no respect, ego
Brother vs. brother= ego, tournament gone wild,deception,ego

See, you were just asking the wrong people;) actually I learned a great deal of my info from GMT himself. as well as others who will remain nameless... I was friends with him for about 10+ years and a student in the csc for 15+.

all the stories change from time to time and from person to person....it is true about the fact that Sin& Hiang,(play on words Sin is Yin & Hiang is Yang), decided to bury the hatchet and it is true that the masters and senior masters have tried many times to unite.

the big issue,still ,is the way in which the Soards went about starting their own organization.I believe that the east coast group still feels betrayed and that they do not live up to the code of Shaolin...IMO I maybe wrong

funny thing is that this crap has been going on in Shaolin for over 1500 years and there is no end in sight ..if there was we could get back to what is most important...THE ART!!

[Radhnoti]

TTM - "...I believe that the east coast group still feels betrayed and that they do not live up to the code of Shaolin..."

When you say "they" do you mean the Soards or the east coast group (which I assume means Lexington)?
Also, were you taught a code beyond "honor your teachers" when you mention code of Shaolin?

SanHeChuan- "Whoa whats this story? Who way threatening him and Why?"

The numbers were from Texas, some actually from contact numbers for a school in Texas. LOTS of calls and hang ups...which were pretty juvenille. A couple of, "I'm going to get you Motherwhatever." One guy left a LONG rant about how someday he would come to understand all the sacrifices GM Sin had made and he'd be sorry. As far as I know he (my friend) never said a bad word about GM Sin. If it was just dealing with GM Sin I'm fairly positive he'd still be in the system. He made a decision to switch away from SD...well...there were lots of reasons. The blackbelts of my school met and decided to throw out a 2nd black who VERY actively pursued an affair with a white belt. Our actions were entirely reactionary, as the 2nd black actually had been served with a restraining order by the white belt and her family...culminating in the local police coming to the school and actually leading him away. Luckily, only one kid saw that particular fiasco... We asked him to go, he started studying under a (then new) SD Master in another town. Next thing we know we're being accused of studying with Master Hiang...and all kinds of good ideas my friend had...bringing in outside instructors for a night per week...doing demos with other schools...even going and learning NON-SD material from one GM Sin's original students...were ordered to stop. No one asks my instructor's side to anything, I assume because our one time colleague had the ear of a guy who took direct lessons from the guy passing down all the edicts. I saw an e-mail where our school was ordered to begin attending seminars and tournaments more frequently. I suppose it was really over (though I didn't know it at the time...involving GT shortly after) when my instructor's teacher sent him an e-mail chastising him and ending with something like, "Honor is something you carry in your heart, not a mask you put when it suits you."
From that time my friend stopped teaching the SD material, switching from a forms focus to sparring/combos/situational awareness/self defense type stuff. The questionable thing my friend did, I thought at the time, was to not announce to any higher ups that he'd decided to quit. He kept saying he didn't feel like dealing with the harrassment that was sure to follow...and he was correct on that count. It could also have been that he'd not entirely made up his mind to leave when he stopped with the SD material, he'd always been a "company man" so to speak and he'd spent 20(?) or so years in SD and was a 3rd black. He was the most pro-GM Sin and SD guy you'd hope to meet. So, he did his own thing, until the inevitable occured and some event he had posted on his website raised someone's ire and he was ordered not to do it. He let them know he wasn't in SD anymore and hadn't taught it for months and months, and the phone calls/e-mails and smearing via mutual contacts started. GT came aboard about the time the worst of the harrassment was hitting and caught some flak from my friends in the school who thought he was another critic from SD. GT said he'd look into the harrassment from TX and the calls/e-mails ended overnight. Again, I thank him for that. I wish I'd never gotten him involved in retrospect though, at the time I thought I was helping but it really was probably just a waste of his time...and I'm afraid he probably got a distorted look at some of the best people I know.

A postscript to all this. I know a fellow who recently spoke (maybe studied a bit) with a new instructor in a nearby town. He mentioned my friends name and was told that my friend had been kicked out of the system for studying with Hiang and teaching SD material via the internet. I asked my friend about this and he said, "Yeah, a few months after I told them I was quitting they sent me a letter saying I was thrown out and was forbidden to teach any shaolin-do material and couldn't claim any rank in SD."
So, you can't quit, you're fired! :D

Anyway, my friend is doing fine. He's worked out his own system that he says sticks together really well...he's been refining it for a few years now I suppose. I'm starting my son in his classes this Tues. and plan to join myself to see what it's like. He's the best teacher I had and I have no reservations about putting my son into any class he's running. He teaches in 4 or 5 different towns with small (8-10ish) but consistent numbers in each town, and it's looking like he'll be teaching a HR class for one of the local colleges soon. He's been granted "instructor" status at a couple of other schools in the area and he's continually interacting with other schools and teachers. I don't know if the history with and nature of shaolin-do will ever allow him interaction with those schools and people again, which is a shame, since it could have all gone so differently. But, ultimately, no one was hurt and the only negative was the bad feelings left behind as evidenced by the fact that he's still badmouthed by SD teachers.
The guy we kicked out is now the shaolin-do representative in my home town, which is a shame...that girl was not the first incident of inappropriate behavior we ran across with him.

Edited a bit to remove some specificity of identity...

[tattooedmonk]

when I said "they " I meant the Soards...the code of honor your teachers/ masters ...that is part of I was refering to..it all stems from that ....and yes I was taught a code in addition to this...if you do not mind me asking .....why do you want to know??

[Radhnoti]

Well, I never learned an "official" code. I had the SDA training manual, which had "open letters" from Snr. Mstr. Leonard on general rules and preferred attitudes, but nothing codified.
Was this something short enough to be repeated in class? Just curious about the different ways things were done, no offense intended.
Honestly, I feel somewhat intrusive on this thread anymore...I'm not part of the system, but checking KFO (that's showing how long I've been doing it, from back when it was kungfuonline instead of kungfumagazine) to see the latest shaolin-do thread is a bit of a habit now. :o

[Lokhopkuen]

So I read this whole thread and for me the same question persists.

Is Shaolin Do For Real?:D

[godzillakungfu]

So I read this whole thread and for me the same question persists.

Is Shaolin Do For Real?:D
Yes.

It is an art.
It does work for some.
It does keep you in shape.
It does teach honor.
It does teach respect.

Remeber all the above can be abused. There lies the problem.

The question isn't worded correctly.

[Lokhopkuen]

Cool! I had a friend who practiced the style out of San Diego and he was my only reference to quality and content of your system. I love and respect all martial art regardless of national origin or affiliation. It is nice that forums like this allow people to meet and share ideas who might normally never have gotten the chance to meet.
I see there is a little infighting amongst various factions or your organization.
IMHO I think you all might want to concentrate on your similarities and set aside differences (especially in a public forum) and present yourselves as a united front to the rest of the world. Just a sugestion. An organization is only as strong as the weakest link in the chain. Imagine a person knew nothing about your style, found this thread and formed critical opinions based on the view point of only a few individuals. Would your Master or the spirits of your progenitors be proud?

I speak with experience, ha ha ha!:eek:

Major Props to you and your fellows!:cool:

Peace

[tattooedmonk]

Well, I never learned an "official" code. I had the SDA training manual, which had "open letters" from Snr. Mstr. Leonard on general rules and preferred attitudes, but nothing codified.
Was this something short enough to be repeated in class? Just curious about the different ways things were done, no offense intended.
Honestly, I feel somewhat intrusive on this thread anymore...I'm not part of the system, but checking KFO (that's showing how long I've been doing it, from back when it was kungfuonline instead of kungfumagazine) to see the latest shaolin-do thread is a bit of a habit now. :oYeah... there was an unwritten code passed on from my first teacher in the art..funny thing is he ended up breaking it himself! Our loyalties should go to the art first ,the grand master second, and the masters/teachers third.

I still practice the art but Iam no longer affiliated.I learned most of the material up to 6th black ,( about 90%), not to failing to mention numerous seminars.So that keeps me busy, as well as my Masters Degree program in oriental sciences. I am learning other chinese / Shaolin arts to add to it as well..I am teaching my own program mostly of Shaolin Do stuff (just teaching it alittle differently) .Iam doing the belt ranking thing with the GI .And I am actually reunited with numerous people that studied the art with me for over 10 years We are forming our own organization not too different from Shaolin of old .

The Art of Shaolin Do is real. It is the organization, ( all parts ),and the people,( not all), in it that I question whether they are real or not!

[kwaichang]

Yes SD is real and does continue to evolve much like the original arts of the Shaolin Temples. Im glad to have answered your question. KC

[The Willow Sword]

SD reforms its initial history and lineage claims and calls themselves what they truly are(Kun Tao);) and makes a better more respectful name for itself in the martial arts community.
Apologies are officially stated and are admitted to be marketing tactics.
SD makes formal apologies to those students who initially busted their a$$ for them but shunned and ousted them because they showed little if no integrity when it came to supporting defending the schools honor(which was a sham all along considering the history and lineage is a false one that was obviously made up to draw in people who were looking for kung fu instead of Karate/Kun Tao.)

Sd establishes itself in the next 20 years as a respectable and Legitamate martial arts school as a result of their admissions and apologies and these threads CEASE.


Oh one can dream cant they?:rolleyes: TWS

[Mas Judt]

SD is Kun Tao in only the most generic sense. Just like it is kung fu.

If they called it Kun Tao, from the US understanding of the term, it would be untrue.

[BM2]

TWS,
While it is unfortunate that you did not get what you were looking for, you will only be able to move on by freeing yourself from it. If not, you will still be controlled by that (and whom) which you wish ill towards.

[Radhnoti]

Everyone knows my position on this... :)
I think kuntao is the most appropriate classification...I've done numerous websearches of kuntao schools that turn up teaching the big 3 internal styles...think they're version of things is the most pure since it wasn't tainted by communist China...lots use belts and gis...I've seen many claim shaolin descent and teach multiple animal forms.
It doesn't have everything in common with the best KNOWN kuntao which I'm assuming is Master De Thours version, but Wing Chun being more common than mantis doesn't negate that art being classified as kung fu.
The point is moot, I suppose, since the art will never be represented that way...especially with many teachers dropping the Japanese terms/uniforms/etc. to bring SD more in line with what is more traditionally "kung fu".

[kwaichang]

TWS I wonder what would have happened had you won that "fight" that you lost. You would probably be one of the "SD'ers" that defend the art.
Because you did, or do not have the skill to fight, you want to blame those who practice SD and the art itself for your short comings. If one loses you have only oneself to blame. It is not the art but the individual. BTW Chinese Kun Tao from my research was brought to Indonesia byShaolin who had left china thus making it OLD SHAOLIN it was then taught with Indonesian arts. KC

[The Willow Sword]

If i had won that challenge match with Reemul it would not have changed ANYTHING, KC.

And i WAS one of the Sd'ers defending the art LONG BEFORE you decided to come on these boards.

I have always stated that the issue wasnt that i lost the match. My shortcomings was that i didnt decide to leave SD sooner insteading of wasting 8 years there and having to endure You and some of the other high and mighty's there.
You guys really ARE a cult. Nah you arent some manson family branch davidian type cult, but you are still an organization that bases its system on a mound of pure bullsh!T.

[kwaichang]

Must have struck a nerve there or you would not have reacted so !! You know in any art there are those of higher rank. There are those who have difficulty with authority for what ever reason. Respect is earned not just given freely in life. You are the logical one as I remember, dont you find it odd that you lost that fight and you hate SD so much, even though as I have said, it made you a better fighter than you were? Isnt that what you want to be a good fighter?, and respected by your peers. If you are so smart why did it take you 8 years ? And why cant you prove your points definitively ? KC

[Judge Pen]

You guys really ARE a cult. Nah you arent some manson family branch davidian type cult, but you are still an organization that bases its system on a mound of pure bullsh!T.

You want to know about cults? Read the "Hearding the Moo" book obout Chung Moo Doe. SD is nothing like this. Someone or something not living up to your personal expectations (rushing to defend your honor) is life and part of being human (right or wrong).

If you had won the fight, then you wouldn't have expected your elders in the art to defend your honor and you wouldn't have felt betrayed, right? Maybe you would have left eventually for another reason, but I read your pre-fight posts on SD. If you had won, your posts would continue to defend SD.

Of course that's just my opinon. . . .

[Meat Shake]

Holy crap... I cant believe this thread is still going. Thats unbelievable!

My 2 cents....
I studied shaolin-do for.... 2 years? Just under 2 years. Probably a year and half. Anyhow.... I wont call it a "fighting" system. My views have changed over the years and changed over the injuries and experiences accumulated from full contact venues. Ive never been to or heard of an SD school that actively fights and promotes fighting. The "too deadly" stuff... Please. We all know where that can go.
Just an FYI, this isnt a direct response to anyone or anything on this thread, just my $.02. Its 7 am and Im awake and bored.
Anyhow...
I started off doing "no contact" sparring... Maybe a good concept somewhere for someone with disabilities... Not for fighting. All it ever did was ingraine horribly improper mechanics and habits into my muscles, that got beat out of me over the 3 years following my tenure at SD. I had horrible misconceptions about my own knowledge and abilities due to the continually pumped propaganda that SD is "the greatest!!!", and while paying **** near $100 a month to go there, I wanted it to be as great as they said it was. After investing a year and a half of my time, it was even that much harder to swallow the fact that what I had been learning may have looked cool, and may have even made some interesting fight choriography for a movie some day, but wasnt very useful for violent encounters on the street or elsewhere.
I currently reside in minneapolis, MN, and havent trained actively in just over a year due to a rediculous school load, but I plan on getting back into either BJJ or muay thai. I will always continue to practice Shuai Chiao, and if anyone from SD or anywhere else for that matter wants to touch hands while in the area, Im always game.
Be well everyone, chin down elbows in.

[Golden Tiger]

and while paying **** near $100 a month to go there

Wow!!! And here I only charged $25 a month to teach. Looks like its time for a cost of inflation increase.:D

[tattooedmonk]

Must have struck a nerve there or you would not have reacted so !! You know in any art there are those of higher rank. There are those who have difficulty with authority for what ever reason. Respect is earned not just given freely in life. You are the logical one as I remember, dont you find it odd that you lost that fight and you hate SD so much, even though as I have said, it made you a better fighter than you were? Isnt that what you want to be a good fighter?, and respected by your peers. If you are so smart why did it take you 8 years ? And why cant you prove your points definitively ? KCwhy is it that everyone says that respect should be earned and not given freely?...if that is the case, does that mean that you disrespect everyone until they have earned respect?? everyone should be respected until they do something to deminish that respect but you should never disrespect them.

Did you ever think that maybe people have a problem with authority when the person that is in that position should not be there? Not everyone who is in a position of authority deserves to be there ..I know this from first hand experience. some people like myself endure a lot of bull **** from the organization just for the art .

[tattooedmonk]

TWS I wonder what would have happened had you won that "fight" that you lost. You would probably be one of the "SD'ers" that defend the art.
Because you did, or do not have the skill to fight, you want to blame those who practice SD and the art itself for your short comings. If one loses you have only oneself to blame. It is not the art but the individual. BTW Chinese Kun Tao from my research was brought to Indonesia byShaolin who had left china thus making it OLD SHAOLIN it was then taught with Indonesian arts. KCit may not be the art but the individual to a certain degree, however,it is the teachers / masters reponsibility for the growth and developement of the students and the art , not every SD teacher /master lives up to that!..

[tattooedmonk]

If i had won that challenge match with Reemul it would not have changed ANYTHING, KC.

And i WAS one of the Sd'ers defending the art LONG BEFORE you decided to come on these boards.

I have always stated that the issue wasnt that i lost the match. My shortcomings was that i didnt decide to leave SD sooner insteading of wasting 8 years there and having to endure You and some of the other high and mighty's there.
You guys really ARE a cult. Nah you arent some manson family branch davidian type cult, but you are still an organization that bases its system on a mound of pure bullsh!T. the Art is the foundation there is nothing wrong with it. what is wrong with it is the lack of philosophical teachings and some of the people in the organization.If the teachers/ masters had a philosophical backround and foundation in Taoism, Buddhism ,or Confucianism this would not happen as much as it does. Not everyone is meant to teach or to be incharge of a school . I have met many of these people over the years who were high and mighty and thought that everyones lives should be based on there own lives and philosophies when the had a ****ty life and no philosophy other than a mish mosh of bull ****!

[Golden Tiger]

it may not be the art but the individual to a certain degree, however,it is the teachers / masters reponsibility for the growth and developement of the students and the art , not every SD teacher /master lives up to that!..

Of course not every teacher/Master/style lives up to the expectations that a person might have. And generally if they don't, said person moves on to find one better suited to what they are looking for. Very similar to dating, very few end up staying with the first person they have a crush on.

The difference between them and TWS is that once they find out its not a good fit (no pun in relation to the dating part), they move on and don't dedicate they life to making the first crush out to be nothing than a common @#%$# (fill in apprioate term). TWS lost faith in his teacher/SD because they didn't back him up when he issued a challenge and got defeated (I think, been a while since I re-visited the TWS saga). To be perfectly honest, if I had a student on here, talking smack and doing what he did, I would have asked him to stop or leave. Thats not what I would want a student of mine doing.

[tattooedmonk]

You want to know about cults? Read the "Hearding the Moo" book obout Chung Moo Doe. SD is nothing like this. Someone or something not living up to your personal expectations (rushing to defend your honor) is life and part of being human (right or wrong).

If you had won the fight, then you wouldn't have expected your elders in the art to defend your honor and you wouldn't have felt betrayed, right? Maybe you would have left eventually for another reason, but I read your pre-fight posts on SD. If you had won, your posts would continue to defend SD.

Of course that's just my opinon. . . .it may not be that extreme ..but it does have a cult following

if someone expects someone to come in help them or save them ,did you ever think that maybe that it was presented or offered to them and then when they needed it , no one was there to offer the help ??

if a guy wants to become afighter and someone has said they will train him to be fighter and in no way shows this person how to become a fighter then whos fault is it??

many shaolin instructors can teach but cannot fight. how can someone who does not know how to fight convey the idea of fighting to some one if they do not know how to fight??

[tattooedmonk]

Of course not every teacher/Master/style lives up to the expectations that a person might have. And generally if they don't, said person moves on to find one better suited to what they are looking for. Very similar to dating, very few end up staying with the first person they have a crush on.

The difference between them and TWS is that once they find out its not a good fit (no pun in relation to the dating part), they move on and don't dedicate they life to making the first crush out to be nothing than a common @#%$# (fill in apprioate term). TWS lost faith in his teacher/SD because they didn't back him up when he issued a challenge and got defeated (I think, been a while since I re-visited the TWS saga). To be perfectly honest, if I had a student on here, talking smack and doing what he did, I would have asked him to stop or leave. Thats not what I would want a student of mine doing...but does part of this responsibility not fall on the short comings of the teacher as well??

[Judge Pen]

What's a definition of a cult? My teachers are just that, teachers. They have no control over my personal life. They don't tell me how to think or what to say. They teach me martial arts. They don't dictate to me my friends. People throw this word around without any concept of how a real cult operates. A cult attempts to control more than just your behavior and actions in class. It invades your life. It's not to say that students take up the hero worship banner, but that's the same in any art. "My dad can beat up your dad." Your dad may or may not be a wimp. It's childish, but it happens all the time.

Can they fight? Yes, I believe so. I think that I do ok, and I wouldn't want to cross hands with any of them if it were anything but a learning environment.

I can't say that all schools are this way, but the ones that I have had any experience in.

[Judge Pen]

..but does part of this responsibility not fall on the short comings of the teacher as well??

Sure, to a degree, but good parents have bad kids and bad parents can have kids that grow up and do well in life. At some point you have to stop blaming your parents for your circumstances and take responsability for your own actions.

Please someone spank my inner-child.

[tattooedmonk]

[QUOTE=Golden Tiger]Of course not every teacher/Master/style lives up to the expectations that a person might have. [QUOTE]... the promises of certain services that are presented by the art/ teachers/ masters?? what if they do not live up to their promise and donot provide those certain services???

[Judge Pen]

[QUOTE=Golden Tiger]Of course not every teacher/Master/style lives up to the expectations that a person might have. [QUOTE]... the promises of certain services that are presented by the art/ teachers/ masters?? what if they do not live up to their promise and donot provide those certain services???

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him surf (or something like that).

[tattooedmonk]

Sure, to a degree, but good parents have bad kids and bad parents can have kids that grow up and do well in life. At some point you have to stop blaming your parents for your circumstances and take responsability for your own actions.

Please someone spank my inner-child. but it is not always this cut and dry!!

[tattooedmonk]

[QUOTE=tattooedmonk][QUOTE=Golden Tiger]Of course not every teacher/Master/style lives up to the expectations that a person might have.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him surf (or something like that).how does this apply here??? I do not see how it does!!!

[Golden Tiger]

Of course not every teacher/Master/style lives up to the expectations that a person might have.


...the promises of certain services that are presented by the art/ teachers/ masters?? what if they do not live up to their promise and donot provide those certain services???

You move on. It is a choice to join a school, not an obligation. It is a choice to stay, not an obligation. I am just saying that if it is not for you, don't spend the rest of your life bitter over it, just move on.

[BM2]

TWS stated it was only at the time for his leaving for the match that his instructor withdrew his support. Untill then he had it and that is why he felt betrayed.
Some schools charge what the market will bear in monthly costs. Several students found out that their teacher pads the testing fees :eek:
It is unfair to boldly paint SD or anything with a broad brush. For certain some schools put out hyperboyles and superlatives. However there are students who seek out structure and create a cult mindset on their own. As TTM stated, there are instructors out there that maybe shouldn't be. I wouldn't almost blindly follow them. I knew one that was a 4th that is no longer teaching SD. He was a nut. But what style doesn't have its nuts?

[Judge Pen]

Exactly! That was my point: Things are never cut and dry. To assume that a student cant' fight because the teacher is a bad teacher is just as presumptions as assuming that that a student that loses a fight had bad instruction. There are too many varialbes to consider to simply blame one or the other.

My horse analogy is simply stating that a good teacher can have a bad student.

[BM2]

Or a mediocre instructor can have a good student.

[Judge Pen]

My point exactly.

[The Willow Sword]

KC. you have not touched any pressure points with me.


as for the current posters within the last two pages. I will share with you something. A few days after the match when i was feeling betrayed and feeling like i did not belong at SD anymore, i had an email correspondance with joe(i wasnt coming in to classes because i felt like i really was not welcome there anyway) so i decided to email joe and communicate with him about the whole thing.

i wont go into everything but there was something he stated to me that took me by suprise and was one of the deciding factors in me leaving the school for good.

as we were going round about the who's and the What's he commented something to the extent of "did you think you were the best fighter in the school because you certainly are not" to which i replied " well i COULD be if you trained me to be fighter as the art is about that anyway,amongst other things". to which he replied " I DONT TRAIN FIGHTERS, I JUST PRESERVE THE ART OF SHAOLIN".
Preservationists can write books to preserve whatever they want. I would think that martial art instructors and teachers who TEACH The ART ALSO TEACH one HOW TO USE IT EFFECTIVELY.:rolleyes:

I dont blame joe OR SD for losing the match with reemul. Reemul just had better skills than i. PLus i went into the match feeling like i was representing something that did not back ME when i had busted my A$$ for THEM for many years. My fighting spirit was dashed. If you who are reading the old posts will recall i stated in them that HAD i Had Support and HAD i Been in High Spirits that night i still would have lost but that i would have held myself alittle better against Reemul.

Judge Pen you are mistaken in one aspect. Its not that i would have continued to be with SD Had i WON the match. It was if i had the support that was initially given to me and then taken away at the last second. THAT is the cruxt of this matter and issue that i have with SD.
The Independant research i did on the history after everything was said and done(because i wanted to know why everyone was bashing the school so d@mn much) revealed MUCH to me. as i finally pulled the wool away from my eyes and began to LISTEN to the good people that Approached me with information and accurate history regarding the Shaolin Temples and Showing me the Holes in the History that SD had convieniently Filled to further their OWN Agenda.
Of Course my research was done on the Picture of Su kong who IS someone DIFFERENT than what that picture claims to be. i verified it to a reliable source, got the info i needed and when i found it all out i felt like a complete FOOL to have ever put my faith and trust in an organization that bases its history and lineage on a lie( a very well contructed lie at that) The lie is so well done that guys like KC and others can reason and rationalize the semantics of the history and the Gaps in history and make it the reality that they wish it to be. HOWEVER that is NOT the reality that IS the consensus amongst people HERE on these forums who are actually FROM legitamate schools with accurate and traceable lineages.
It has never been the movements of the art itself because there is an inherent connection to movement in form and technique and application from all avenues of martial arts be they JMA or CMA etc etc.. the problem is and has always been the outlandish claims of how those movements were aqquired and how they are presented in that system. Its the reputation and it is NOT a good one. That is evident here.
Since i had initially wanted to be a teacher and have a career in teaching martial arts i wasnt about to teach and represent a system that for 1 is not respected in the martial arts community. I am not an elitest, i had always wished to be a part of that community in all of its avenues, but when you are with schools like SD you are kept within the realm of that school and you dont go anywhere else and why not? Well you are told that "THIS IS THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE MARTIAL ART IN THE WORLD."" You dont need to go anywhere else." "OUR FORMS are BETTER than THEIR Forms". "We dont DO all that FLOWERY NonSENSE." " Those Guys over there SUCK because they are learning crap and we are learning the TRUE SHAOLIN ART." (here is where that cult mindset comes in)
I had to listen and to ENDURE that bullsh!T from SD for YEARS. It was contrary to what i was originally taught before i stupidly joined that school and i passed it off as just a few ignorants initially. but i began to see it permeate everywhere in that Organization. Even in Lexington.

anyway, just thought id clarify things here. what struck me funny was KC's initial post about "the future". LOL. i thought it was very funny considering, so i decided to post my OWN view of the future. which is just as naive and as ignorant as his view.
As Always,TWS

[Golden Tiger]

We have commented on the short comings of some teachers but perhaps we should look at something the fine gentleman BM2 said:


But what style doesn't have its nuts?

So perhaps its is not always the teachers who have the issues but the students. IMO, TWS is one of them. Detractors love him because he is one with first hand experience who regularly slams SD but if you actually read what he says, well he is a little hard core.



... A few days after the match when i was feeling betrayed and feeling like i did not belong at SD anymore

...i wasnt coming in to classes because i felt like i really was not welcome there anyway

...did you think you were the best fighter in the school because you certainly are not" to which i replied " well i COULD be if you trained me to be fighter

...i went into the match feeling like i was representing something that did not back ME when i had busted my A$$ for THEM for many years. My fighting spirit was dashed.



Looks like pass the blame 101 with a dash of paranoia.



TWS stated it was only at the time for his leaving for the match that his instructor withdrew his support.

You think it might have been a case of "I am gonna jump!!!!" ok, little timmy, what ever. Then his teachers finally realized he was actually serious and tried to stop it?



my research was done on the Picture of Su kong who IS someone DIFFERENT than what that picture claims to be. i verified it to a reliable source, got the info i needed and when i found it all out i felt like a complete FOOL

Then the "dog" at it and it lost forever. That was one of my favorite ones. I found proof! Its in a book that is only contained in one library in the world! But some Ninja from SD stole the book before I could show it and tell the world! Curses, foiled again! :rolleyes:


And please, the rest of you excuse me. You know me well enough to know that I generally don't bash people, its just not my style. But I just have a huge distain for weak, whiney, thumb sucking people.

[tattooedmonk]

You move on. It is a choice to join a school, not an obligation. It is a choice to stay, not an obligation. I am just saying that if it is not for you, don't spend the rest of your life bitter over it, just move on.Do you realize how hard it is after you have devoted that much of your life to anything to just move on?? I mean 8 years is a long ass time for someone to devote to anything and then just say "ok, I will just move on"

It maybe someones choice to join, but there is an obligation once you make a choice to stay, to get past the bull****, and devote yourself to the art. what does this say about this persons loyalty, devotion ,and discipline if they just say,"ok, I will just move on??" Is that what should be/ is taught ?? this type of attitude or view would not exist if the philosophy was taught like Shaolin of old ......rather than everyone just using their own ****ing philosophy.

Like I stated earlier, art first, grandmaster second, and master/ teacher third.

SD makes alot of claims that they do not live up to ! I have already stated how I feel about the art and the organization and it's people. And I hold GMT and the governing bodies ( SD & CSC) responsible.

The organization asks for alot in the way of discipline ,devotion, and loyalty but only follows by those things when it suits their purpose. And when someone makes a mistake or has troubles living up to these expectations the organization turns it's back on them. The organization does, in a many ways, expect you to follow blindly and not to ask questions , etc..and then uses fear as way to maintain control...this is not The Way of Shaolin!!

[Golden Tiger]

SD makes alot of claims that they do not live up to ! I have already stated how I feel about the art and the organization and it's people. And I hold GMT and the governing bodies ( SD & CSC) responsible.


And because you feel this way, you did what?



I still practice the art but Iam no longer affiliated.I learned most of the material up to 6th black ,( about 90%), not to failing to mention numerous seminars.So that keeps me busy, as well as my Masters Degree program in oriental sciences. I am learning other chinese / Shaolin arts to add to it as well..I am teaching my own program mostly of Shaolin Do stuff (just teaching it alittle differently) .Iam doing the belt ranking thing with the GI .And I am actually reunited with numerous people that studied the art with me for over 10 years We are forming our own organization not too different from Shaolin of old .


You moved on.....:rolleyes:


Do you realize how hard it is after you have devoted that much of your life to anything to just move on?? I mean 8 years is a long ass time for someone to devote to anything and then just say "ok, I will just move on"

Yeah, I dated a girl for around 8 years. She broke my heart but I have no ill words to say about her. Just wasn't meant to be.


this type of attitude or view would not exist if the philosophy was taught like Shaolin of old ......rather than everyone just using their own ****ing philosophy.

In the way of the Shaolin of old, you had to prove that you really wanted to learn before you were admitted, not the other way around.

As for teaching philosophies, I have taught more people than most of you know personally, longer than most of you have been alive and over all those years and students, I have had 3 complaints. 3 out of a couple of thousand isn't that bad. Appears my own ****ing philosophy must be pretty good.:p

[The Willow Sword]

FYI when i could not locate that book that has the full picture of "su" in that suit(which no-one in your organization has explained definately WHY and where that pic was taken) i took my researh elsewhere and just by chance happened upon that persons identity, corroberated it, verified it and that was all i needed. i have posted about it before. go back and find the archives if you want. i had initially wanted to find that guiness book but apparently it is out of print and out of circulation, so my research went elsewhere and i found what i was looking for.

i am not even going to respond to your other comments. To be honest with you i think you are the biggest bullsh!tter here who thinks your cr@p dont stink. I leave you to your own way GT.


TWS

[kwaichang]

I have trained for many years and have been told by some teachers to not train in another style at the same time as theirs .
I do not know who most of you are but I have never had fear placed into me by someone of the SD system. If you scare that easily then you should train in another style. Likewise if you look to others for support of your own ego or to fight some one, then look elsewhere. Perhaps to yourself. I have trained in SD for the last number of years and know also that Master Joe does not train fighters he trains people due to the fact that all people do not wish to be fighters and the art is not used in that way exclusively at this time. I choose to be in SD and have never felt betrayed by anyone in the system. But then I do not look to the people of the style for support or security I find that in my training and understanding of the Forms. You who have been hurt by something like the supposed betrayal of a teacher should remember that the teacher is just that, a teacher you should be dedicated to him or her not the other way around they give you the knowledge what you do with it is your choice succeed or fail KC

[Golden Tiger]

To be honest with you i think you are the biggest bullsh!tter here who thinks your cr@p dont stink. I leave you to your own way GT.

I am truly sorry that you feel that way TWS and I am unsure of what I might have said to give you that impression. Yes, I rag on you and I even said excuse me in the last post but something about your bitterness gets to me. Sorry.

Oh, and I can assure you that my cr@p is pretty stinky.;)

[BentMonk]

It appears that the main thing that bothers everyone about SD is the "900 forms...most comprehensive MA in the world." claim. Since thousands of people devote their lives daily to mastering one of the arts SD teaches as a small part of a vast whole, I think they have a legitimate complaint. I have said it before. The huge amount of material in SD combined with people who rush to become instructors before they are ready is a recipe for mediocrity. Hence the horrible representations of SD posted on the net. JP I'm not talking about you. :D As for the political BS...it is exactly that, BS. I in no way agree with some of the things a few SD instructors have done. In fact I find their actions contemptible. I am referring to telling their students where to go, where not to go, where to compete, where not to compete, who to talk to, who they can't talk to, threats for disobedience, etc. I am not talking about where material came from or what outfits people train in. However, the only person who can do anything about any of it is GM Sin. He doesn't seem to care at all, so I'm wondering why so many others do. I also don't see anyone jumping up to ask GM Sin, or EM Leonard what the real story is or why they haven't put a stop to it. SD is not the only MA that makes grand claims and has a subjective history. Nor is it the only large organization to be plagued with internal squabbling. Although I think it might be the only art or organization that has 100 or more pages of discussion about it on the web. Still, the original question posed by this thread was, "is Shaolin Do for real?" The answer is yes. Why? Because despite the endless debate, there are people who, even as I am typing this, are enjoying their time in SD. Just as any other MA, when taught properly, and practiced diligently, Shaolin Do is as real as any other art practiced today. Peace, love, and happy training. :)

[Judge Pen]

Still, the original question posed by this thread was, "is Shaolin Do for real?" The answer is yes. Why? Because despite the endless debate, there are people who, even as I am typing this, are enjoying their time in SD. Just as any other MA, when taught properly, and practiced diligently, Shaolin Do is as real as any other art practiced today. Peace, love, and happy training. :)

There ya go. Question answered.

(And I would include myself in that group you mentioned :o )

[orion_steel]

He doesn't seem to care at all, so I'm wondering why so many others do. I also don't see anyone jumping up to ask GM Sin, or EM Leonard what the real story is or why they haven't put a stop to it. SD is not the only MA that makes grand claims and has a subjective history. Nor is it the only large organization to be plagued with internal squabbling. Although I think it might be the only art or organization that has 100 or more pages of discussion about it on the web. Still, the original question posed by this thread was, "is Shaolin Do for real?" The answer is yes. Why? Because despite the endless debate, there are people who, even as I am typing this, are enjoying their time in SD. Just as any other MA, when taught properly, and practiced diligently, Shaolin Do is as real as any other art practiced today. Peace, love, and happy training. :)

i agree with you on all points....sort of.
I think that there is a good reason (from GM Sin's point of view) to not get involved.
i think that you are right....i think, using your criteria, then it is "for real". But, much like church and faith you have to go by what you are looking for. Shaolin-do (or any other martial art or physical activity) cannot and should not be all things to all people....nor should it claim to be.

[kwaichang]

Ok , I have always wanted to study Shaolin Kung fu, When I was young I found some teachers in Nashville Tn, they taught 5 different animal styles and weapons as well. I thought Shaolin consisted of Crane Dragon Tiger Leopard and Snake and from each system we gain a certain knowledge or ability or attribute. I have learned some of the following systems in SD :
Black Tiger, Hua, Mantis, Lohan, Tai chi Chen and Yang, HsingIe, Pa Kua Chang and Other Pakua, Regular Tiger. Dragon Ground, Some of the 8 Immortals Li Ti Kuai,etc., White Crane and numerous weapons Broad Sword , Chain whip, Straight Sword Kwan Tao, Staff. Spear. and More. I also have observed other Kung fu systems and weapons that are taught and have noticed many similarities but having a background as a bouncer and Japanese MA and weapons practitioner I have found in SD all that I could hope to learn with more of an emphasis on "real" fighting , and more, can I do all the forms perfectly ? NO but I will continue to try which is what Shaolin and Kung fu is all about. Is SD real about as real as it gets does it look like the OTHERS yes and no. My back ground is as a Personal Trainer and in Physical Therapy and advanced Massage/bodywork and with the knowledge given me in school of Bio Mechanics I can say that SD is a very viable system and is real enough for me . The history may be a little skewed but those things happen in time with translation . Shoot our own American History is screwed up does that mean America isnt " for real"? REAL ENOUGH FOR ME. So is SD KC:)

[tattooedmonk]

And because you feel this way, you did what?





You moved on.....:rolleyes:



Yeah, I dated a girl for around 8 years. She broke my heart but I have no ill words to say about her. Just wasn't meant to be.



In the way of the Shaolin of old, you had to prove that you really wanted to learn before you were admitted, not the other way around.

As for teaching philosophies, I have taught more people than most of you know personally, longer than most of you have been alive and over all those years and students, I have had 3 complaints. 3 out of a couple of thousand isn't that bad. Appears my own ****ing philosophy must be pretty good.:pexactly ! I am leading by example....At first I was resentful and felt betrayed ,but know matter who I blame or believe to be equaly at fault, I still blame myself.

and yes if you have done what you say ,you have more than proven yourself worthy of Shaolin and the honor you have been given. I still respect THE ART and GMT and the Masters....

I have proven time and time again for over 15 years,( not as long as you or many others , but afair amount of time), my dedication to the art and the grandmaster...

[orion_steel]

I have proven time and time again for over 15 years,( not as long as you or many others , but afair amount of time), my dedication to the art and the grandmaster...

i know what you mean. I was very loyal to the shaolin-do system and style, but that loyalty was not really appreciated. It was more like i was a part of a pyramid scheme.....

Martial arts (not just kun tao or kung-fu) is about being part of something special. That is one of the things that i was told to put in my flyers and brochures when i was part of shaolin-do. This was true in my school (and still is), we are part of an extended family.......but, i cant really truthfully tell my students that they are following the best of the martial arts tradition when the see in fighting and politics and all of that in the system that they belong too.

I was in shaolin-do for over 20 years before i left. So i saw a lot of crappy politics and in-fighting. I have nothing against the system, i think that it is good. But, i think that it ignores half of the whole that it promises to give the student. Of course i am sure this is the problem with a lot of things out there.....but i think that these things could be improved upon.

[BM2]

I think only one person is aware that TWS was in Louisville last year and that I took him to bjj class. Almost didn't know how to respond when I called him up and asked him to come to class and he was hesitant as he didn't know me or my intentions once we were in class ( He has been rather harshly addressed here, not making any judgements wither it was deserved. I don't do it). I just wanted to work out and then get something to eat.
Don't think TWS really cared for rolling but he never complained. We headed to a Chinese resturaunt and I paid. We spent a little, very little on SD. I didn't try to change his mind, but I offered how I felt.
I'm begining to feel like the SD welcome wagon:rolleyes: So if your ever in Louisville and it's a Saturday will do something nuetural like bjj and then go grab something to eat:p Promise not to bring up SD either:) Just don't be a vegan like MK :eek: I mean, heck, there are all these BBQ and Pizza etc. I don't know where to go to get girlie food:o Just joking MK:o :o I'd like to roll then eat then party whenever your over this way again:p

[BM2]

[QUOTE=orion_steel] , i cant really truthfully tell my students that they are following the best of the martial arts tradition when the see in fighting and politics and all of that in the system that they belong too.


The only way they will see it is if the instructors talk about it in class. Egos are a ****. You will also find the same thing in any group...'cause you have people in it.

[Golden Tiger]

I think only one person is aware that TWS was in Louisville last year....

....We headed to a Chinese resturaunt and I paid.





I am starting to feel cheated over here, you never bought me lunch........:mad:

[Golden Tiger]

Every one is right, it should stay out of the classes and only worried about between those involved. I think the problem is that someone will get a snipet of something that is going on and then fill in the blanks on their own. They then will go and tell others so it will appear that they are in the know for no other reason than their ego's. I couldn't count how many times something has happened (and I usually hear when it does) and someone comes to me or emails me with the details all screwed up. Its a shame but what can you do.

To any teachers that might be lurking, bringing any of the politics or any of the other bs in to the class will only lead to disaster, misinformation, and could eventually drive the students away. They are there to learn an art (yes, a real one) and nothing else.

I must admit, this forum thread has shown me some of the faults in SD that I was not aware of and many that I was. For any of the students that got a bad experience from SD or their teachers, I appologize. Some of the experiences that I have read about shock me. That is not the way Master Sin taught us to promote his system.

[MasterKiller]

Just don't be a vegan like MK :eek: I mean, heck, there are all these BBQ and Pizza etc. I don't know where to go to get girlie food:o Just joking MK:o :o I'd like to roll then eat then party whenever your over this way again:p

Meat makes me pee out of my @ss. :o

BM2's hospitality is a major reason I don't rag on you guys that much anymore. I figure anyone willing to risk jail time by bringing sharp weapons to an airport can't be all bad. '

I still didn't see and SD'ers at Taiji Legacy. When are the Texas schools going to step up the plate?

[ninthdrunk]

MK, when I move home from Cornell in a couple years, I'm planning on doing Taiji Legacy. If nothing else, I'm hoping to have lots of fun. I'm not much of a competitor, but I have a blast when I compete because it helps me see what I need to work on.

What's the sparring like? People gonna try and hand me my tail because I'm wearing a gi? Oh, I probably won't be able to wear my gi, huh? Oh well, I won't hold that against anyone....I'm sure they're just jealous...hehehe.

Did you compete, how did it go?

[MasterKiller]

What's the sparring like? People gonna try and hand me my tail because I'm wearing a gi? Oh, I probably won't be able to wear my gi, huh? Oh well, I won't hold that against anyone....I'm sure they're just jealous...hehehe.

Yeah, no gis allowed. The sparring in Texas can be pretty intense. They have a very lenient boxing commission, and the judges allow some pretty heavy contact in continuous sparring. Of course, you can always fight San Shou, too.


Did you compete, how did it go? My competition days are drawing close to an end. 33-years-old going against 20-years-old is not a lot of fun. Maybe I'll start back up when I qualify for the old man's division at 36.

[Radhnoti]

BM2 - "...The only way they will see it is if the instructors talk about it in class."

Not true in my school's case. We were told not to demo SD forms with other schools (something that had been pre-planned) and not to have non-SD instructors visit (which was something you planned WELL in advance and students were pre-informed).

I can only give personal testimony though, and maybe ours was somehow a special situation...

[The Willow Sword]

I think only one person is aware that TWS was in Louisville last year and that I took him to bjj class. Almost didn't know how to respond when I called him up and asked him to come to class and he was hesitant as he didn't know me or my intentions once we were in class ( He has been rather harshly addressed here, not making any judgements wither it was deserved. I don't do it). I just wanted to work out and then get something to eat.
Don't think TWS really cared for rolling but he never complained. We headed to a Chinese resturaunt and I paid. We spent a little, very little on SD. I didn't try to change his mind, but I offered how I felt.


Well i will say to you BM2 that initially i felt hesitant because there is always this fear in the back of my mind that those sd'ers that know who i am and who do not like me would bring it upon themselves to get up in my face, and i have been harrassed before and i gotta tell ya, I dont play rooster games with people, if someone is going to get up in my face with aggressive intentions i am not going to think about anything other than defending myself and when it comes to my livelihood im not going to treat the confrontation as some rooster fight. the dynamic changes completely when it is about survival and the street, No tournament will prepare you for it. anyway that being said, after i felt out the situation and was positive that it wasnt some trap i loosened up and was totally open with BM2.
I actually Liked the BJJ class, i took alot away from that class, and i didnt mind the rolling and the drills, i thought that i did okay considering my level of experience in the system(which was very very little) and the fact that my exercise regimen has changed since i was at SD(i was a tad bit out of shape).
All in All it was a very good meeting and many thanks to BM2 again for the dinner and the invite to the class. I thought that the conversation was honest and i didnt feel like i was being scrutinized or i was being made to try and change my mind about things.
BM2 was cordial and respectful and i have nothing but respect for him and his path. There have been a few SD people that i have come across over the years that have made an impression with me and who i whole heartedly respect(regardless if they respect me or not).

TWS

[Ralphie]

I don't want to get involved with the "politics" thing, but I think there is a problem when people take martial arts out of context. It's a hobby and a sport. It's not a path to enlightenment. You shouldn't attach your self esteem to a particular affiliation beyond it making you feel healthy and that you enjoy the comradery.

People who have been in an organization, be it SD or whatever, for a particular long time are still human beings. A 10th degree black belt is no better than a white belt in real life. You may respect his accomplishments, but there are many things to respect people for, not just being "masters" and "grandmasters" of a particular sport/hobby. They are no less fallable, or less subject to fate. Instructors have an obligation to students, but that is common sense. People who behave poorly and unethically, particularly if they're in a place of power, are not beyond criticism. If there are many occurences of this type of behavior, it is not uncommon to think poorly of the represented organization.

Anyway, I think the above describes to some extent the "cracks in the wall" of the SD organization.

[Golden Tiger]

It's a hobby and a sport.


Well folks, I am buying a lottery ticket and watching for lightning. For once, and only once, I have to agree 100% with Ralphie. And perhaps that is why I don't get bent out of shape over most of this. Even though I have invested a lot of time, it still a hobby.

Wow, Ralphie. :eek: we actually agree. Whats next? peace in the Middle East?

[orion_steel]

yea tiger....i think that you are correct. But then again i DO think that martial arts is something that can go beyond "just a sport" or "just a hobby". But then again i think that something that is really serious about football or basketball could say the same thing. I think that the only difference is that we have been programed through our instructors, Television, movies, articles, and all of that stuff to believe that it is so much more than just a sport or hobby....and in many ways i think that it is...or at least should be or can be. The big difference is that no one (serious) claims that football is the path to a happier life or that hockey will fix all of your problems....but many in the martial industry claim just that.

I cant speak for others or my students but i can say taht i feel more at home in a friendly dojo or kwoon than i do in any church...but this is just becuase it is the way that i look at it.....but that is because i choose to see it that way, but for many others they are lead to believe that way.

just a thought or observation....i could be wrong.

[tattooedmonk]

You see here.... this is the ****ing problem!! I do not understand how people can make claims about being Shaolin, how effective it is, how they have devoted their lives to it and then just say that it is for sport and hobby. Are you ****ing kidding me??

This is why true Shaolin is a dying art. If you all had a Chinese philosophical backround , took being a Shaolin more seriously ,and valued it more than just the monthly dues you pay for it , then you might understand how some of us who have been wronged feel.

Shaolin is way of life!! It stands for something greater and is worth more than you can put a price on..

Yeah I maybe pathetic or something because Shaolin martial arts, chinese & eastern philosophy, and TCM are my life..but that is what I was taught , read, and learned. .

..but to come to find out that it is a marketing tool to make money and really means nothing to anyone except being a hobby or sport is truely pathetic!!

The instructor of the Northridge school (J C )said that GMT thought of shaolin do as a business first and the art was like third or forth on his list of priorities.( making the movie was second )...how can this be?? seeing as if it was not for The Art he would not be in this business or TRYING to get this movie made.

all of you that agree that it is just a hobby or sport.... make me sick!! Yeah it is alright just to do it for hobby or for sport but then you are hobbiest not martial artists!!

quit making claims about being martial artist and being all hard core and **** if all you want to do is exercise and be social..because that is what Shaolin Do is turning into!!

[godzillakungfu]

Take the name out. If you look, most of us use abbreviations purposely.

Anyway, all I'll say is this, many thing that come out of their mouths (Instructors on the West) is dogma presented by 2 specific people not GMT.

[The Willow Sword]

You see here.... this is the ****ing problem!! I do not understand how people can make claims about being Shaolin, how effective it is, how they have devoted their lives to it and then just say that it is for sport and hobby. Are you ****ing kidding me??


Well Tattooed Monk this is the reality of this country, Most people DO see this as a sport and a hobby but i dont fault people for that at all, Neither do i fault people for making this a way of life for themselves.



This is why true Shaolin is a dying art. If you all had a Chinese philosophical backround , took being a Shaolin more seriously ,and valued it more than just the monthly dues you pay for it , then you might understand how some of us who have been wronged feel.

The True Shaolin IS already a dead art when you look at the history and what is practiced today. YES you have direct lineages to the Temple and you have a ressurection going on in china to restore those things because of either tourism and to preserve national treasures and for the chinese people to reclaim the identity that Mao and communism took away from them. I personally dont feel wronged because i couldnt live like a monk and carry water buckets up a hill and chant mantras while i flew through the air kicking leaves in half with my pinky toe:rolleyes:



Shaolin is way of life!! It stands for something greater and is worth more than you can put a price on..

Yeah I maybe pathetic or something because Shaolin martial arts, chinese & eastern philosophy, and TCM are my life..but that is what I was taught , read, and learned. .


Well when you get the temple built in the woods somewhere drop me a line because i wanna join it. i have this sense of grandier with respect to martial fanatsy and the soap opera stories, but reality is just not like that. But hey just in case it is and you make it such, contact me and i will gladly help build it and study there.


but to come to find out that it is a marketing tool to make money and really means nothing to anyone except being a hobby or sport is truely pathetic!!

Welcome to the good ole U S of A and the capitolistic ideal.


Look i am not trying to harp on ya too much, but this really is a delusion of grandier that you have with respect to all this shaolin way and such. We are a different culture and yes we can respect and emulate the old philosophies and try to live by them as much as possible, but when its time to come back to reality you HAVE to find balance within the structure of the World that IS RIGHT NOW, and NOT what it WAS or WAS TOLD IN MYTH Way back when.

Hey Man if i could study real shaolin martial arts from a legitamate background and lineage and feel secure that i wasnt getting scammed or made to follow some cult mindset i would be the first one to walk through the door. But sadly this is not the case.
I stick to my humble beginnings before this whole sd mess and i keep my Tao simple. Yes i have to work on my own "self importance" and "bitterness"
But as i have heard you HAVE to Taste the Bitter before you taste the sweet.

Peace,TWS

[kwaichang]

Amen Tattooed Monk,
That is why most MA are just mediocre at best and although I am not the best in the world I feel Shaolin is more than a hobby , why dont these A/holes that practice about MA quit and let those who truly want to be the best they can be continue. then the quality of students would improve.. Would you want a surgeon to operate on your Heart if it is just a hobby. Kind of like Frist he was a good surgeon and now he is a meocre politician, Hell. Decide and do it , get in the water. As far as making it real what SD have gotten into your face TWS, that you "took care of"? For those who say MA is a hobby I F@rt in your general direction. KC:mad:

[BentMonk]

TTM - I feel your pain brother. Unfortunately you, me, and countless others were born a few centuries too late. You're right, MA practice of any kind should be a more integral part of your life than just a hobby. No combat art that I've ever heard of was originally designed to be a sport or hobby. However, we live in a world where EVERYTHING is for sale, and people will buy into the latest fad just to have one more expensive thinga-ma-bob to boast about. Every fitness center, gym, dojo, and kwoon has it's group of posers. Yes they're annoying, but they also pay the rent so everyone else can train. Do not misunderstand. I have made some of my dearest friendships through training. The difference is we socialize after class, not during. Fear not. Hard core training is not as nearly extinct as you might think. The UFC, K1, Pride, and some of the new MA movies are introducing the next generation to the fun of training hard. Another great thing about the next generation is that they are not as style prejudice as some of us were taught to be. They already see that all of us who train hard in the arts of combat are a huge family bound together by sweat and dedication. It doesn't matter what your art is or where it came from. What matters is how it benefits you. I tell my students not to focus on the behavior of others. I tell them to focus on how they can be a real example of living well in all areas of life, not just their MA training. I also try hard to practice what I preach. At the end of the day that's all any of us can really do. Peace, Love, and Happy Training to ALL. :D

[tattooedmonk]

Take the name out. If you look, most of us use abbreviations purposely.

Anyway, all I'll say is this, many thing that come out of their mouths (Instructors on the West) is dogma presented by 2 specific people not GMT.just wanted to send alittle message

[Ralphie]

Just because you coach with a certain philosophy doesn't make you unique or special. I'm sorry, but you're a little delusional if you think a physical activity like martial arts can teach anything different than anything else that requires a physical/mental/emotional commitment. I train BJJ/MT/Wrestling about 8 hours a week (mostly BJJ), and weight train about 4-5 more. I find lessons about many things in the sport that reflect many of my personal philosophies. I compete a few times a year, and learn a lot from that. I compete every day in class both with myself and others. I also learn a lot from that, both about myself and others. Guess what, though? I'm not privy to this experience, just like your experience in martial arts isn't unique and different. Sorry about that, again.

I learned to speak and read Chinese, and have studied Budhist, Daoist, and Confusionist ideas and philosophies. I'm not special or unique because I've done this, and while it's enriched my life I don't follow or believe it's THE WAY exclusively. The problem I see is that people latch onto an idea and can't see their way past it. How do you know shao-lin? Did you read a book? Did you watch a movie? Did an old Chinese man tell you stories? Did you feel it, then thought it was real? Did you buy into a business plan run by a self proclaimed Grandmaster, and then because you couldn't bring yourself to realize that you wasted some amount of time, you yell and SCREAM when people challenge you?
Shao-lin is a transformed art to say the least about it. The communists all but killed it. Those who teach under its name are more often then not, dubious. The problem most people have when studying history, is that they fill in blanks based on their modern understanding/agenda , and shun piecing together the conditions of a particular time and space.
I think delusional people should stop teaching people while using martial arts as their vehicle.

[The Willow Sword]

LOL ive noticed that TTM isnt responding to my level of "reason" and "reality". he like others want to exist in a fantasy realm.

the world of martial arts is NOT a freakin david carradine Movie:D

I still want the temple of the flying pinky toe of death shaolin temple to be built:p ;) :D .

Peas and nub,,TWS

[tattooedmonk]

LOL ive noticed that TTM isnt responding to my level of "reason" and "reality". he like others want to exist in a fantasy realm.

the world of martial arts is NOT a freakin david carradine Movie:D

I still want the temple of the flying pinky toe of death shaolin temple to be built:p ;) :D .

Peas and nub,,TWSyou do not know me..so do not act like you do.

I live in reality, but being a Taoist I have found the balance between the past and the present...which is the future..

I live alife much like that of David Carradines character in kung fu ...what of it?? it is no movie and is more rewarding than you can ever imagine.

[The Willow Sword]

:eek: :D BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! Ohh! Ohhh!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! (wipes tears from face) "sniff, cough" okay man to each his own, As long as you arent buggering little boys and girls and not hurting anyone else, its fine by me.

Peace,,TWS(snicker snicker snicker)

[tattooedmonk]

Just because you coach with a certain philosophy doesn't make you unique or special. I'm sorry, but you're a little delusional if you think a physical activity like martial arts can teach anything different than anything else that requires a physical/mental/emotional commitment. I train BJJ/MT/Wrestling about 8 hours a week (mostly BJJ), and weight train about 4-5 more. I find lessons about many things in the sport that reflect many of my personal philosophies. I compete a few times a year, and learn a lot from that. I compete every day in class both with myself and others. I also learn a lot from that, both about myself and others. Guess what, though? I'm not privy to this experience, just like your experience in martial arts isn't unique and different. Sorry about that, again.

I learned to speak and read Chinese, and have studied Budhist, Daoist, and Confusionist ideas and philosophies. I'm not special or unique because I've done this, and while it's enriched my life I don't follow or believe it's THE WAY exclusively. The problem I see is that people latch onto an idea and can't see their way past it. How do you know shao-lin? Did you read a book? Did you watch a movie? Did an old Chinese man tell you stories? Did you feel it, then thought it was real? Did you buy into a business plan run by a self proclaimed Grandmaster, and then because you couldn't bring yourself to realize that you wasted some amount of time, you yell and SCREAM when people challenge you?
Shao-lin is a transformed art to say the least about it. The communists all but killed it. Those who teach under its name are more often then not, dubious. The problem most people have when studying history, is that they fill in blanks based on their modern understanding/agenda , and shun piecing together the conditions of a particular time and space.
I think delusional people should stop teaching people while using martial arts as their vehicle.following a certain philosophy does make you special and unique....if you live that philosophy....and not by just reading some books or taking some classes....

you can get it from any activity as long as you live the philosophy , as long as you unify the mind spirit and body.

you are dillusional if you think that you are the only one who knows this

that is why they call it KUNG FU

Shaolin is alive and well and resides in the philosophy and in the hearts ,minds, and bodies of those who embrace it and live it.. you are a hobbiest obviously

yeah I bought into it all ,until I realised what it truely was ..and then when I said something about it I was kicked out...why?? because some people can not handle the TRUTH...

none of my time was wasted no matter what the turn out...I am still a better person for it...

[godzillakungfu]

LOL ive noticed that TTM isnt responding to my level of "reason" and "reality". he like others want to exist in a fantasy realm.

the world of martial arts is NOT a freakin david carradine Movie:D

I still want the temple of the flying pinky toe of death shaolin temple to be built:p ;) :D .

Peas and nub,,TWS

Oh come on. Look at the time between his posts. If it was a few days you might be right. A few hours come on. You see this is why people talk about you and animosity.

[tattooedmonk]

:eek: :D BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! Ohh! Ohhh!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! (wipes tears from face) "sniff, cough" okay man to each his own, As long as you arent buggering little boys and girls and not hurting anyone else, its fine by me.

Peace,,TWS(snicker snicker snicker) do you have a problem with me and the way that I live??

laugh all you want but know that I am living a real life and not some psuedo existance...

if you knew me you would not be laughing

[tattooedmonk]

Oh come on. Look at the time between his posts. If it was a few days you might be right. A few hours come on. You see this is why people talk about you and animosity.that my last few posts before this were of me sticking up for him.... which lead me to explode with the one that set this one off..**** chain reactions...what I can not use the word....d....a...m....n..??

[BM2]

Every one is right, it should stay out of the classes and only worried about between those involved. I think the problem is that someone will get a snipet of something that is going on and then fill in the blanks on their own. They then will go and tell others so it will appear that they are in the know for no other reason than their ego's. I couldn't count how many times something has happened (and I usually hear when it does) and someone comes to me or emails me with the details all screwed up. Its a shame but what can you do.

To any teachers that might be lurking, bringing any of the politics or any of the other bs in to the class will only lead to disaster, misinformation, and could eventually drive the students away. They are there to learn an art (yes, a real one) and nothing else.

I must admit, this forum thread has shown me some of the faults in SD that I was not aware of and many that I was. For any of the students that got a bad experience from SD or their teachers, I appologize. Some of the experiences that I have read about shock me. That is not the way Master Sin taught us to promote his system.

This just begs to be posted again.;)

[BM2]

2000! Yes Yes

[Judge Pen]

I didn't think Taoist talked that much. No offense TTM, but I remember thinking to myself as I read the Tao Te Ching and some commentaries about it that I could never be a Taoist, because I like to talk and argue to much on internet forums....

[Golden Tiger]

You see here.... this is the ****ing problem!! I do not understand how people can make claims about being Shaolin, how effective it is, how they have devoted their lives to it and then just say that it is for sport and hobby. Are you ****ing kidding me??

Well for one thing, I have never claimed to be "Shaolin". I haven't shaved my head, taken a vow of celebecy*, a vow of proverty, not taken a job so I could train 24/7. I did however, start taking MA classes to improve myself in a physical and mental sense and have taken what I have learned and incorporated it into my daily life.


.....all of you that agree that it is just a hobby or sport.... make me sick!! Yeah it is alright just to do it for hobby or for sport but then you are hobbiest not martial artists!!

....quit making claims about being martial artist and being all hard core and **** if all you want to do is exercise and be social

....just wanted to send alittle message



Taoism sure isn't what I thought it was...:eek:




why dont these A/holes that practice about MA quit and let those who truly want to be the best they can be continue......

..... For those who say MA is a hobby I F@rt in your general direction. KC




Wow! I take that as pointed toward my post and would return the favor but according to TWS, mine doesn't stink. :D

[ninthdrunk]

These posts are a lot better when you're creaking and aching from a hard class workout the night before.

Some of y'all are way to dang aggressive on this board. Which is hilarious because it seems like you're trying to convince others of your way of looking at things, but all you're really doing is pushing them further away.

For those in SD that know what I'm talking about:

I just introduced my students to the old Honan Conditioning. Yeah, we needed the puke bucket out. It was great!

[tattooedmonk]

I didn't think Taoist talked that much. No offense TTM, but I remember thinking to myself as I read the Tao Te Ching and some commentaries about it that I could never be a Taoist, because I like to talk and argue to much on internet forums....Taoism is about finding the balance between all things.I am modern Taoist. I am into the philosophy and not the religion...anyone that knows Taoism would know that not everything is as it appears. Because you have a biased perspective and a preconceived idea of what I am saying you come to your own conclusions without asking me as to what I mean or what is meant by the words that I write......you may not be trying to offend me and you are not...but you are being judgemental in your passive aggressive way....

[tattooedmonk]

Well for one thing, I have never claimed to be "Shaolin". I haven't shaved my head, taken a vow of celebecy*, a vow of proverty, not taken a job so I could train 24/7. I did however, start taking MA classes to improve myself in a physical and mental sense and have taken what I have learned and incorporated it into my daily life.



Taoism sure isn't what I thought it was...:eek:






Wow! I take that as pointed toward my post and would return the favor but according to TWS, mine doesn't stink. :DIs this what you think being Shaolin is about?? if it is you have alot to learn ..maybe if you did some research you would know that this is not what Shaolin is...

Taoism is not what most people think it is and you are no exception and this is why you have the views and stand the position that you do...

[tattooedmonk]

Amen Tattooed Monk,
That is why most MA are just mediocre at best and although I am not the best in the world I feel Shaolin is more than a hobby , why dont these A/holes that practice about MA quit and let those who truly want to be the best they can be continue. then the quality of students would improve.. Would you want a surgeon to operate on your Heart if it is just a hobby. Kind of like Frist he was a good surgeon and now he is a meocre politician, Hell. Decide and do it , get in the water. As far as making it real what SD have gotten into your face TWS, that you "took care of"? For those who say MA is a hobby I F@rt in your general direction. KC:mad: I appreciate your support....

[tattooedmonk]

TTM - I feel your pain brother. Unfortunately you, me, and countless others were born a few centuries too late. You're right, MA practice of any kind should be a more integral part of your life than just a hobby. No combat art that I've ever heard of was originally designed to be a sport or hobby. However, we live in a world where EVERYTHING is for sale, and people will buy into the latest fad just to have one more expensive thinga-ma-bob to boast about. Every fitness center, gym, dojo, and kwoon has it's group of posers. Yes they're annoying, but they also pay the rent so everyone else can train. Do not misunderstand. I have made some of my dearest friendships through training. The difference is we socialize after class, not during. Fear not. Hard core training is not as nearly extinct as you might think. The UFC, K1, Pride, and some of the new MA movies are introducing the next generation to the fun of training hard. Another great thing about the next generation is that they are not as style prejudice as some of us were taught to be. They already see that all of us who train hard in the arts of combat are a huge family bound together by sweat and dedication. It doesn't matter what your art is or where it came from. What matters is how it benefits you. I tell my students not to focus on the behavior of others. I tell them to focus on how they can be a real example of living well in all areas of life, not just their MA training. I also try hard to practice what I preach. At the end of the day that's all any of us can really do. Peace, Love, and Happy Training to ALL. :DI appreciate your support

REALSHAOLIN it is not style biased and absorbs what is useful to sustain it and bring it to the next generation of practitioners.....

there are plenty of people that do it for hobby, sport , recreation, and a social activity .. I do not have problem with this... but when it goes under the guise of being one thing and you find out it is another and like you said the bills need to be paid if you are going to keep the school open..it is pretty disheartening..

.maybe if more people viewed it like us Shaolin ( Do),from a martial arts perspective, would not be viewed as a joke ...because even though Shaolin is a real martial art and people like it ...not many people take it seriously( especially MMA ,ufc/pride people, and hobbiest)..and that is the problem

[Mas Judt]

Things I have learned from this thread:

1. Judge Pen is a cool guy.
2. While GT may be a bit delusional in regards to SD, he is a straight shooter from his POV, and probably a pretty decent, hard-working sort. He speaks from his experiences and perceptions, but is probably a guy you could still hang with.
3. TWS has calculated the correct, but his best course of action is continue to be honest, factual, and train.
4. There are people on this board even more lost into the clouds of samsara than the SD crowd.
5. SD is certainly not what it claims to be. (most comprehensive, the original 'fighting' art, yadda yadda). It is a karate/kung fu off shoot from Indonesia that has it's own following. It's just a shame that they don't stick to what they are and be the best at that, rather than making ridiculous and unsupportable claims.
6. Apparently no one on video in SD shows a form the 'right' way. Even GM Sin, who accoding to all reports can do this. Yet no one can explain why.
7. What is good in SD is what will probably be stripped away by guys like JP who play well with others and see value in cross-training.
8. Cross-training in SD is not a way to 'put things back into SD', but to learn how they should be done. All you need to do is watch Sin The' to know they were not there in the first place.
9. Every organization has politics, and this alone is not a reason to judge a group.
10. You will be happier, whatever you train, if you stay detached, find the joy in your pactice, and not fool yourself.

[Mas Judt]

".because even though Shaolin is a real martial art and people like it ...not many people take it seriously( especially MMA ,ufc/pride people, and hobbiest)..and that is the problem"

Perhaps this is not a problem, but a lesson.

[BM2]

I started watching the original "Kung Fu" on TV in 6th grade. It was magical to a 11 year old kid. Looking through the yellow pages not knowing anything about the MA I saw the pages filled with Tae Kwon Do Karate. Really there were different types of TKD and I decided if I was ever going to take lessons I would go to the one and only school that taught " Super Tae Kwon Do" as the others taught just the regular TKD. It said so right there in the yellow pages.
Fast forward past my slacker years aka teenage years and I take my first MA class two days past my 20th birthday. I took lessons because I wanted to learn those cool fighting moves. Didn't come to class to perserve any traditions but to learn how to fight like I saw on TV.
When I was walking around the Shao lin temple, I realized there was more than just learning moves. Seeing those deep depressions in the stone floor amongst other things gave me a connection that was greater than I had thought about before. And ,at the same time, I felt that I didn't belong, I was some sort of an intruder, a tourist taking photos.
We each have our own reasons for walking into class for the first time. Do we make it more than it really is later?
The different paths in life that each of chose may look strange from where we stand as we look around us. When we make light of other's choices it proves we don't know where we are going either.

[Judge Pen]

Taoism is about finding the balance between all things.I am modern Taoist. I am into the philosophy and not the religion...anyone that knows Taoism would know that not everything is as it appears. Because you have a biased perspective and a preconceived idea of what I am saying you come to your own conclusions without asking me as to what I mean or what is meant by the words that I write......you may not be trying to offend me and you are not...but you are being judgemental in your passive aggressive way....

I wasn't talking about what you meant by the words--their intent or definition--I was pointing out that you say a lot of them (and often). That does go against my understanding of Lao Tzu's teachings, but I'm not a Taoist, so I suppose I don't really know enough about it to say.

Passive agressive? I consider it just being cordial. I wasn't disagreeing with what you were saying, per se.

[Judge Pen]

Things I have learned from this thread:

1. Judge Pen is a cool guy.
2. While GT may be a bit delusional in regards to SD, he is a straight shooter from his POV, and probably a pretty decent, hard-working sort. He speaks from his experiences and perceptions, but is probably a guy you could still hang with.
3. TWS has calculated the correct, but his best course of action is continue to be honest, factual, and train.
4. There are people on this board even more lost into the clouds of samsara than the SD crowd.
5. SD is certainly not what it claims to be. (most comprehensive, the original 'fighting' art, yadda yadda). It is a karate/kung fu off shoot from Indonesia that has it's own following. It's just a shame that they don't stick to what they are and be the best at that, rather than making ridiculous and unsupportable claims.
6. Apparently no one on video in SD shows a form the 'right' way. Even GM Sin, who accoding to all reports can do this. Yet no one can explain why.
7. What is good in SD is what will probably be stripped away by guys like JP who play well with others and see value in cross-training.
8. Cross-training in SD is not a way to 'put things back into SD', but to learn how they should be done. All you need to do is watch Sin The' to know they were not there in the first place.
9. Every organization has politics, and this alone is not a reason to judge a group.
10. You will be happier, whatever you train, if you stay detached, find the joy in your pactice, and not fool yourself.

Good to see you around. Why the change in screen names?

[orion_steel]

The instructor of the Northridge school (J C )said that GMT thought of shaolin do as a business first and the art was like third or forth on his list of priorities.( making the movie was second )...how can this be?? seeing as if it was not for The Art he would not be in this business or TRYING to get this movie made.

well, even though this is hearsay i still have to make a comment. My comment is this "Dont get me started on that crappy movie stuff". :mad:

[shadowlin]

Things I have learned from this thread:

5. SD is certainly not what it claims to be. (most comprehensive, the original 'fighting' art, yadda yadda). It is a karate/kung fu off shoot from Indonesia that has it's own following. It's just a shame that they don't stick to what they are and be the best at that, rather than making ridiculous and unsupportable claims.
6. Apparently no one on video in SD shows a form the 'right' way. Even GM Sin, who accoding to all reports can do this. Yet no one can explain why.
7. What is good in SD is what will probably be stripped away by guys like JP who play well with others and see value in cross-training.
8. Cross-training in SD is not a way to 'put things back into SD', but to learn how they should be done. All you need to do is watch Sin The' to know they were not there in the first place.
9. Every organization has politics, and this alone is not a reason to judge a group.


It's been awhile since I posted here, and so far not much has changed. People still make judgments and claims without knowing anything about what they're saying.

This ^ is an example.

How, on Earth, can you read a forum and learn anything about martial arts? You can't. It's proposterous to say you can.

What we claim to be is, in fact, provable, has been proven, and no longer needs to be proven. What's funny is that all these centuries Shaolin and Taoist monks worked to elude and mystify the public. Grandmaster Sin followed that example even in America. In the early years, he wouldn't even announce the names or styles of forms, he simply gave them numbers (this was before his Master knew he was teaching Westerners). Now people still are made confused and stumble over not even the essences. He has managed to keep out the incompetent and egoistic, and the classes catch the rest of them.

Do you know that when Grandmaster Sin and other masters visited China in 2001, they had dinner with the great teacher of Jet Li, Wu Bin? At that dinner, he asked (in Chinese, mind you) how old the masters were, and how long they'd been studying. When they answered, he was so astounded that he ordered his top students to take lessons from Grandmaster Sin, who declined to teach them because he would not give such an honor to new students (they'd have to go through the ranks like anyone else).

Whenever our schools go to China, they follow GM Sin around with cameras and he meets with governors, the heads of Shaolin and other temples, and the leaders of the Chen village. The government sends an agent to watch our visitors with leary eyes because they know his influence on the public and also want to capture our material.

You who make "knowledgable" claims against a man without knowing firsthand are like crows and starlings. Master Sin is like an Eagle. Why should an eagle stoop down to peck the ground with crows and starlings?

---------------
As for videos, there are people who do it right, and they do have videos. But we don't post them on the internet, because we don't particularly like the whole world to have free access to something we sweat our butts off to earn. In fact, we are forbidden to do it. You're watching videos from schools that are as reputable with us as with you, and judging all of Shaolin-Do. You don't even realize how embarassed we are sometimes to see these videos.

Not that our students are amazing. They are, like everyone else, busy people with real lives. But they aren't so vain as to release it to the world as if it were monk level work. We constantly condition and condition, practice and practice. The sheer volume of supremely difficult material and the limits in our lives are why we stay in Shaolin-Do. Growth is endless and we love that aspect.

--------

As for cross-training... Shaolin-Do IS cross-training. It's a collection of dozens of styles. Some of these styles are the origins of the world's modern gems, like Jui-Jitsu, Akido, Kempo, Wing Chun, etc... We're training in ancestor styles. You won't recognize it, and it's not Indonesian. Well, you'll recognize the Tai Chi and Pakua if you're any sort of researcher. I've got a book with Sifu Jerry Allen Johnson doing the same Pakua we released back in 1971 before anyone ever heard of Pakua. I've watched a video of Chin Man Ching doing our 64, just a lot faster. I've got videos of Chen masters doing our 83 in their own interpretive manner. Not to mention we've got the freaking original poetry to the forms that are hundreds of years old.

That's why it's Comprehensive. IT IS CROSS-TRAINING.

So before anyone makes wild claims to understand exactly what is going on in Shaolin-Do, spend a few months or years actaully learning what it's about.


----

If you want a good idea of what Shaolin is, real the book, "Shaolin Grandmaster's text" I was uniquely surprised to find it very much a supplement to Shaolin-Do, albeit heavily biased towards Ch'an Buddhism.

Taoism is not Shaolin, but they do have a lot in common. I don't think anyone who berates another's Taoist knowledge is worthy of being labelled a Sage, modern or rellgious. But that's an opinion. From my readings of the Tao, it very much molds to your individual philosophy, and that's why it's so powerful.

[orion_steel]

What we claim to be is, in fact, provable, has been proven, and no longer needs to be proven. What's funny is that all these centuries Shaolin and Taoist monks worked to elude and mystify the public. Grandmaster Sin followed that example even in America. In the early years, he wouldn't even announce the names or styles of forms, he simply gave them numbers (this was before his Master knew he was teaching Westerners). Now people still are made confused and stumble over not even the essences. He has managed to keep out the incompetent and egoistic, and the classes catch the rest of them.

provable? how is that? In the words of Steven Colbert "I dont care much for Fact, i like truth".........

[Crushing Fist]

nicely put shadowlin...


I've heard a lot of stories from the China Trips, but have never been able to go myself. I'm not likey to attend the next one either :(


One story that sticks out in my mind was a combined demo our students did with students of a school in china. Towards the end One of the senior chinese students did a mantis form which was described as being very similar to ours, and then the head master (whose students I was told had never seen him demonstate a form before) got up and did Hsing I which I was told looked identical to the Five Roads we do.

I trust the story as it was related to me first hand by one of the SD masters who attended.




As for the politics... I used to think SD politics was bad until I came on here and read some of the Hung Gar, Wing Chun and other styles political/lineage flame wars.

Really, SD is mild in comparison.

[Judge Pen]

Why is it forbidden to share a form? If its the same as what other people do, then why is it a big deal to show it? For any discipline to validated then it must be subject to peer review. Of course it only matters if you seek validation (some do not and I can respect that) but if you are going to argue about the legitimacy, then you need more than second-hand information and hearsay.

Keep in mind, I believe that SD is valid. I believe its roots are deep in the shaolin temples. I also believe that it's a travesty to stick your head in the sand.

[Judge Pen]

As for the politics... I used to think SD politics was bad until I came on here and read some of the Hung Gar, Wing Chun and other styles political/lineage flame wars.

Really, SD is mild in comparison.

Ain't this the truth. . . .

[Judge Pen]

Any body read these books?? They are from a fellow SD'er named Jeff Stone...they are a "young readers" books but they are spectacular...the first one is tiger ..it is out now in paper back and cost about 5 bucks..check them out

I flipped through it in Boarders. It looked good; I may buy it for my daughter when she is born.

[Mas Judt]

Shadowlin - as always there is more to something than what you ma be aware. The reception of Sin The' in China may not have been what you think... the Chinese are very polite, and in the course of good manners (especially towards people spending money), you'll find what is NOT said is very important as well...

Shaolin-Do is certainly not what it claims to be. Please go through my previous MonkeySlap posts ad naseum, as there is a wealth of evidence both first hand and anecdotal that firmly establishes this. Any cult-like love for the grand-mullet aside, it is you sir, who cannt support your claims.


Judge - I tried to get back in as MS2, but forgot my pasword, and the moderators ignored my e-mails, so... new ID. It's also an in-joke for the kuntao crowd...

[MasterKiller]

It's been awhile since I posted here, and so far not much has changed. People still make judgments and claims without knowing anything about what they're saying.

This ^ is an example.

How, on Earth, can you read a forum and learn anything about martial arts? You can't. It's proposterous to say you can.

What we claim to be is, in fact, provable, has been proven, and no longer needs to be proven. What's funny is that all these centuries Shaolin and Taoist monks worked to elude and mystify the public. Grandmaster Sin followed that example even in America. In the early years, he wouldn't even announce the names or styles of forms, he simply gave them numbers (this was before his Master knew he was teaching Westerners). Now people still are made confused and stumble over not even the essences. He has managed to keep out the incompetent and egoistic, and the classes catch the rest of them.

Do you know that when Grandmaster Sin and other masters visited China in 2001, they had dinner with the great teacher of Jet Li, Wu Bin? At that dinner, he asked (in Chinese, mind you) how old the masters were, and how long they'd been studying. When they answered, he was so astounded that he ordered his top students to take lessons from Grandmaster Sin, who declined to teach them because he would not give such an honor to new students (they'd have to go through the ranks like anyone else).

Whenever our schools go to China, they follow GM Sin around with cameras and he meets with governors, the heads of Shaolin and other temples, and the leaders of the Chen village. The government sends an agent to watch our visitors with leary eyes because they know his influence on the public and also want to capture our material.

You who make "knowledgable" claims against a man without knowing firsthand are like crows and starlings. Master Sin is like an Eagle. Why should an eagle stoop down to peck the ground with crows and starlings?

---------------
As for videos, there are people who do it right, and they do have videos. But we don't post them on the internet, because we don't particularly like the whole world to have free access to something we sweat our butts off to earn. In fact, we are forbidden to do it. You're watching videos from schools that are as reputable with us as with you, and judging all of Shaolin-Do. You don't even realize how embarassed we are sometimes to see these videos.

Not that our students are amazing. They are, like everyone else, busy people with real lives. But they aren't so vain as to release it to the world as if it were monk level work. We constantly condition and condition, practice and practice. The sheer volume of supremely difficult material and the limits in our lives are why we stay in Shaolin-Do. Growth is endless and we love that aspect.

--------

As for cross-training... Shaolin-Do IS cross-training. It's a collection of dozens of styles. Some of these styles are the origins of the world's modern gems, like Jui-Jitsu, Akido, Kempo, Wing Chun, etc... We're training in ancestor styles. You won't recognize it, and it's not Indonesian. Well, you'll recognize the Tai Chi and Pakua if you're any sort of researcher. I've got a book with Sifu Jerry Allen Johnson doing the same Pakua we released back in 1971 before anyone ever heard of Pakua. I've watched a video of Chin Man Ching doing our 64, just a lot faster. I've got videos of Chen masters doing our 83 in their own interpretive manner. Not to mention we've got the freaking original poetry to the forms that are hundreds of years old.

That's why it's Comprehensive. IT IS CROSS-TRAINING.

So before anyone makes wild claims to understand exactly what is going on in Shaolin-Do, spend a few months or years actaully learning what it's about.


----

If you want a good idea of what Shaolin is, real the book, "Shaolin Grandmaster's text" I was uniquely surprised to find it very much a supplement to Shaolin-Do, albeit heavily biased towards Ch'an Buddhism.

Taoism is not Shaolin, but they do have a lot in common. I don't think anyone who berates another's Taoist knowledge is worthy of being labelled a Sage, modern or rellgious. But that's an opinion. From my readings of the Tao, it very much molds to your individual philosophy, and that's why it's so powerful.

bwahahahahahahahhahaa

Rule number 1: Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

[Crushing Fist]

bwahahahahahahahhahaa

Rule number 1: Don't drink the Kool-Aid.


Rule number 2: Don't use tired old clichés...



"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


:rolleyes:

[Mas Judt]

"As for videos, there are people who do it right, and they do have videos. But we don't post them on the internet, because we don't particularly like the whole world to have free access to something we sweat our butts off to earn. In fact, we are forbidden to do it. You're watching videos from schools that are as reputable with us as with you, and judging all of Shaolin-Do. You don't even realize how embarassed we are sometimes to see these videos."

WRONG! Sin The' himsef is on video, and he looks just as bad as his 'masters'. I've met some SD 'masters.' All I've got to say is... put the Kool-aid down. Slowly. That's it. Very good.

The simple fact is you are lieing to yourself when you say this. I think Sin The' is very good at passing on the material as he does it. Whatever it is. But it ain't what he claims it to be. The grand-mullet moves just like his students, and please don't tell me he is 'hiding' anything - as he has obviously practiced very long and hard at moving poorly. That Mantis form he shows is as far from what makes North Mantis North Mantis as Karate is from North Mantis. Hmmmm.

[tattooedmonk]

well, even though this is hearsay i still have to make a comment. My comment is this "Dont get me started on that crappy movie stuff". :mad:I have been listening to it for the past 15years..plus I live in california( LA) and was close with master sin...so I suggest do not get me started on the movie crap!!

[tattooedmonk]

"As for videos, there are people who do it right, and they do have videos. But we don't post them on the internet, because we don't particularly like the whole world to have free access to something we sweat our butts off to earn. In fact, we are forbidden to do it. You're watching videos from schools that are as reputable with us as with you, and judging all of Shaolin-Do. You don't even realize how embarassed we are sometimes to see these videos."

WRONG! Sin The' himsef is on video, and he looks just as bad as his 'masters'. I've met some SD 'masters.' All I've got to say is... put the Kool-aid down. Slowly. That's it. Very good.

The simple fact is you are lieing to yourself when you say this. I think Sin The' is very good at passing on the material as he does it. Whatever it is. But it ain't what he claims it to be. The grand-mullet moves just like his students, and please don't tell me he is 'hiding' anything - as he has obviously practiced very long and hard at moving poorly. That Mantis form he shows is as far from what makes North Mantis North Mantis as Karate is from North Mantis. Hmmmm.Master sin and almost everyone else does it like japanese karate and not like Chinese chuan fa( it is not kung fu..but it is a kung fu and can make you a kung fu tze...master of time and effort...or confucius) either way it is not done with the chinese flavor..but the art is almost purely chinese in origin

[godzillakungfu]

[


What we claim to be is, in fact, provable, has been proven, and no longer needs to be proven. What's funny is that all these centuries Shaolin and Taoist monks worked to elude and mystify the public. Grandmaster Sin followed that example even in America. In the early years, he wouldn't even announce the names or styles of forms, he simply gave them numbers (this was before his Master knew he was teaching Westerners). Now people still are made confused and stumble over not even the essences. He has managed to keep out the incompetent and egoistic, and the classes catch the rest of them.New story for me.


Do you know that when Grandmaster Sin and other masters visited China in 2001, they had dinner with the great teacher of Jet Li, Wu Bin? At that dinner, he asked (in Chinese, mind you) how old the masters were, and how long they'd been studying. You know one of his(Jet Li) teachers is in the states. I met him he is a great guy. A friend trained with him your point?


When they answered, he was so astounded that he ordered his top students to take lessons from Grandmaster Sin, who declined to teach them because he would not give such an honor to new students (they'd have to go through the ranks like anyone else). 4th variation of this story for me.


Whenever our schools go to China, they follow GM Sin around with cameras and he meets with governors, the heads of Shaolin and other temples, and the leaders of the Chen village. Again so do many others. DO you need links?
Many other arts do this to, doesn't help or hurt their history. USSD anyone anyone?



The government sends an agent to watch our visitors with leary eyes because they know his influence on the public and also want to capture our material. You aren't helping.


You who make "knowledgable" claims against a man without knowing firsthand are like crows and starlings. Master Sin is like an Eagle. Why should an eagle stoop down to peck the ground with crows and starlings?Wow. I just wow.......

---------------

As for videos, there are people who do it right, and they do have videos. But we don't post them on the internet, because we don't particularly like the whole world to have free access to something we sweat our butts off to earn. In fact, we are forbidden to do it. You're watching videos from schools that are as reputable with us as with you, and judging all of Shaolin-Do. You don't even realize how embarassed we are sometimes to see these videos.
Not that our students are amazing. They are, like everyone else, busy people with real lives. But they aren't so vain as to release it to the world as if it were monk level work. We constantly condition and condition, practice and practice. The sheer volume of supremely difficult material and the limits in our lives are why we stay in Shaolin-Do. Growth is endless and we love that aspect.Please stop. To put bad ones up and hide the good ones is just silly. You realize this has entered you into the politics arena right?

--------


As for cross-training... Shaolin-Do IS cross-training. It's a collection of dozens of styles. Some of these styles are the origins of the world's modern gems, like Jui-Jitsu, Akido, Kempo, Wing Chun, etc... We're training in ancestor styles. You won't recognize it, and it's not Indonesian. Well, you'll recognize the Tai Chi and Pakua if you're any sort of researcher. I've got a book with Sifu Jerry Allen Johnson doing the same Pakua we released back in 1971 before anyone ever heard of Pakua. I've watched a video of Chin Man Ching doing our 64, just a lot faster. I've got videos of Chen masters doing our 83 in their own interpretive manner. Not to mention we've got the freaking original poetry to the forms that are hundreds of years old.
That's why it's Comprehensive. IT IS CROSS-TRAINING. No it isn't in the true sense.


So before anyone makes wild claims to understand exactly what is going on in Shaolin-Do, spend a few months or years actaully learning what it's about. Many have.


----


If you want a good idea of what Shaolin is, real the book, "Shaolin Grandmaster's text" I was uniquely surprised to find it very much a supplement to Shaolin-Do, albeit heavily biased towards Ch'an Buddhism. Do not read this book. Its history is more convoluted than SD. At least we know most of GMT's background. Also, there are more cliche's than a comic book strewn through out the book.

[Mas Judt]

There is a lot of Kun Tao in Indonesia - all with crazy histories and various levels of influence from other arts, wether IMA or JMA.

Take White Crane silat - it's a form of Nan quan - calls itself Silat. But thedse guys seem to lack fighting skills.

On the fighting side of things - there is Mustika Kwitang - a fabled "silat" style that is pure, unadulterated Nanquan. Old, hard fighting system from South China.

Just like here, there a fighting methods, health methods, nutty mystical methods, and every variant in-between. The linguistic games alone make understanding it all truly challenging. And in Indonesia, mash-ups of skills and concepts is a pretty persistent trend - especially since the culture is to not teach everything you know - players look everywhere to find something they can use. (when possible)

If the SD didn't make so many claims that were patently untrue - and ape other systems in the process, I don't think you'd get any grief.

I like to think that there is something good under all the lies, but that's just because I enjoy the whole IMA syncretic scene.

[The Willow Sword]

Do you know that when Grandmaster Sin and other masters visited China in 2001, they had dinner with the great teacher of Jet Li, Wu Bin? At that dinner, he asked (in Chinese, mind you) how old the masters were, and how long they'd been studying. When they answered, he was so astounded that he ordered his top students to take lessons from Grandmaster Sin, who declined to teach them because he would not give such an honor to new students (they'd have to go through the ranks like anyone else).

What MS2 replied to with respects to this deluded comment pretty much states that which is not said up front about those "trips" to china. I will not say anything more about it. Oh and FYI Shadowlin? JET LI's TEACHER Resides HERE in the USA and happens to be HERE in AUSTIN TExas and is name is Li Jun Feng. HE teaches qigong and Taichi at the AOMA(Academy of Oriental Medicine in Austin). He is a very polite but serious individual , and i have had the pleasure of meeting him. DOnt know who this Wu Bin is.




Whenever our schools go to China, they follow GM Sin around with cameras and he meets with governors, the heads of Shaolin and other temples, and the leaders of the Chen village. The government sends an agent to watch our visitors with leary eyes because they know his influence on the public and also want to capture our material.

This is such a load of Horsecr@p.



You who make "knowledgable" claims against a man without knowing firsthand are like crows and starlings. Master Sin is like an Eagle. Why should an eagle stoop down to peck the ground with crows and starlings?

This is the kind of cult mentality that seems to permeate this organization, i have seen it first hand and it makes me laugh so hard. They treat SIn as some GOD when in fact he is an ordinary person just like you and me. i had always treated SInThe' (giving the necessary pomp and circumstance respect in the face of the school dealings)as an equal and as a regular guy. But Outside the school setting it has always been an equal ground that i have taken with Sin The'. I remember after my 2nd degree BB test we all went out to that famed chinese joint in Lexington to eat and i sat across from SIn The'. we served tea to one another and just talked about nothing, (shot the sh!t, so to speak) some felt that i was not giving the proper respect and others have accused me of such "disresepct". mainly because i wasnt kow towing and treating him like some delicate peice of china. it still makes me laugh because i know underneath all that exterior of the SDA Realm that SIn The' wants to be seen and treated as a person and not some elevated god. I dont think SIn The' is a bad guy, i question the method and manner in which he has made a name for himself in this country with respect to the lineage and history claims. I think there is a certain amount of delusion when it comes to the Movie, like it is something that is right around the corner to be made and such,, but that "Movie" has been around the corner since 1986. All in all my disdain for SDA lies with the Austin School and The head teacher there. He lacks true integrity in my opinion and it showed with how he has dealt with me.
Maybe that was my downfall when i think about it. i didnt kiss ass and kow tow and have this jesus like worship you mentality. I am not a singular mind and i am certainly NOT a Follower(hehe well not anymore;) )

TWS

[MasterKiller]

What MS2 replied to with respects to this deluded comment pretty much states that which is not said up front about those "trips" to china. I will not say anything more about it. Oh and FYI Shadowlin? JET LI's TEACHER Resides HERE in the USA and happens to be HERE in AUSTIN TExas and is name is Li Jun Feng. HE teaches qigong and Taichi at the AOMA(Academy of Oriental Medicine in Austin). He is a very polite but serious individual , and i have had the pleasure of meeting him. DOnt know who this Wu Bin is.

If you don't know who Wu Bin is, then you need to get out more.

[orion_steel]

They treat SIn as some GOD when in fact he is an ordinary person just like you and me. i had always treated SInThe' (giving the necessary pomp and circumstance respect in the face of the school dealings)as an equal and as a regular guy. But Outside the school setting it has always been an equal ground that i have taken with Sin The'. I remember after my 2nd degree BB test we all went out to that famed chinese joint in Lexington to eat and i sat across from SIn The'. we served tea to one another and just talked about nothing, (shot the sh!t, so to speak) some felt that i was not giving the proper respect and others have accused me of such "disresepct".

i know what you mean and i agree. When ever we would go out to eat we were always on friendly informal terms. But, If you hear some of the higher up SDA people then they will say that GM Sin just wants to be a normal guy, but then again if you talk to some of the older guys who were around from the beginning then it really doesnt seem that he started out that way. Also, a lot of it comes from the fact that many of the masters want to treat him a certain way, which usually differs from other masters.....

[Judge Pen]

I treat all my teachers as friends and they treat me the same. Of course, I show respect to my friends too. They are teachers not Gods. I respect their knowledge and advice with regard to the martial arts. Other than that, they are people.

In class, I'll address them appropriately, but that's a different environment. Is this not the way it should be?

[The Xia]

Wow this thread is long lol. Is this KFM's longest thread? Just from skimming through, this seems like a very complex and convoluted situation. Would someone be kind enough to define Shaolin-Do in a nutshell?

[Mas Judt]

Pretty standard all around. I find the adoption of fuedal or confucian behavior patterns into martial arts training to be silly.

[Golden Tiger]

FYI Shadowlin? JET LI's TEACHER Resides HERE in the USA and happens to be HERE in AUSTIN TExas and is name is Li Jun Feng. HE teaches qigong and Taichi at the AOMA(Academy of Oriental Medicine in Austin). He is a very polite but serious individual , and i have had the pleasure of meeting him. DOnt know who this Wu Bin is.

This is a good example of how there can be minor distortions. If I may, the event that Shadowlin is refering to was a trip to Master Zhao Chang Jun's school and then later to dinner with him, his teacher (Wu Bin(I assume) and his daughter to translate) Master Sin, and various other higher level students that were on the trip. Mr Wu asked how long each of those at the table had trained with M. Sin and hearing that the avg for the group was ~30 years, he was very impressed.

A few months after returning from the trip, Master Zhao traveled to LA and spent a little over a week staying at Master Sin's home (training or not, I never heard).

The Jet Li reference comes from the fact that Master Zhao has been the national champ since Jet LI went all famous and they trained together.



Things I have learned from this thread:

1. Judge Pen is a cool guy.
2. While GT may be a bit delusional in regards to SD, he is a straight shooter from his POV, and probably a pretty decent, hard-working sort. He speaks from his experiences and perceptions, but is probably a guy you could still hang with.


I can live with that. Wish I had made the cool list like JP though.:cool:

[The Willow Sword]

If you don't know who Wu Bin is, then you need to get out more.


Yes i do i guess. i just refreshed my memory and knowledge of Wu Bin. I also need to correct my previous statement about Jet Li's TEACHER, and say that Li Junfeng COACHED Jet Li when he was on the beijing wushu team as Li Junfeng was head coach of the beijing wushu team for many years.

There got that settled, Thanks MK,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,punk.;)


TWS:D

[Mas Judt]

Hey GT - there is still time to be cool. always time to be cool.

[Judge Pen]

You're cool in my book. Then again, I get along with most everyone. :p

[orion_steel]

I treat all my teachers as friends and they treat me the same. Of course, I show respect to my friends too. They are teachers not Gods. I respect their knowledge and advice with regard to the martial arts. Other than that, they are people.

In class, I'll address them appropriately, but that's a different environment. Is this not the way it should be?

that is because you are a free thinker. Many are not....and do not take the martial arts (or life) as an individual journey.

[B-Rad]

Jet Li's had multiple teachers... I don't know the exact chronology of who was with him when, and their official titles, but other than Li Junfeng, you have Ma Xianda (for fanzi quan), Wu Bin (the man in charge), and An Tianrong here in Ohio (coached basic skills when Jet Li was a child). Myself, my old teacher, his teacher, and a few of my classmates had dinner with Wu Bin and the Beijing wushu team in 2000 and it was pretty cool. They were all extremely nice and get excited when they see Americans showing enthusiasm for martial arts, no mater how good or bad you are.

[kwaichang]

All in all my disdain for SDA lies with the Austin School and The head teacher there. He lacks true integrity in my opinion and it showed with how he has dealt with me.
Originally Posted by The Willow Sword
They treat SIn as some GOD when in fact he is an ordinary person just like you and me.

You know WS that is where you are wrong. The Grand Master Sin Th"e has spent his life training and passing his knowledge to those who want to learn. Doing what he does is not easy. But as you have said above you cant seem to get past your problems with Master Joe. You know all people have faults and I am sure to you Master Joe does too. I truly wish you could put this behind you I know or think I know how you feel but why slam something that, YOU TRAINED IN SO HARD FOR SO LONG JUST BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE MASTER jOE IS PETTY.
Get over it KC

[The Xia]

I went to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin-Do
From first glance, one thing I find suspect is that Su Kong T'ai Djin mastered everything in the Shaolin temple and is therefore the "first ever Grandmaster of Shaolin."
Would you guys say this article is accurate?
And heres a challenge for you guys who've been debating the details back and forth.......is Shaolin-Do real Shaolin Gongfu?
And are they really making a movie on Sin The?

[BM2]

Oh GT this one's for you :cool:
Really, I just try to stay off lists, the're not always good:o

Where do these wild azz SD stories come from?

[Golden Tiger]

Where do these wild azz SD stories come from?



Uhhh, could you be a little more specific? There are so many you know...;)

[SimonM]

Taoism is about finding the balance between all things.I am modern Taoist. I am into the philosophy and not the religion...anyone that knows

Come on down to China. There are all sorts of Taoist temples replete with Taoist gods and Taoist priests who would be happy to disillusion you. Taoism is a complex religion. It's not just "trying to find a balance"

If you have read a dime store copy of the dedaojing and think that makes you a Taoist because you think that the bagua diagram is neato you have a lot of research still to do.

And even a "philosophical" taoist (IE: someone who disregards basically all of Taoism excepting the Dedaojing and the Zhuangzi), perhaps even especially a "philosophical" taoist, should recognize that there is no shame in ignorance. After all Laozi was in favour of a "natural" state that could be described as ignorance in contrast to Gongzi's preference for higher education.

[SimonM]

Again so do many others. DO you need links?
Many other arts do this to, doesn't help or hurt their history. USSD anyone anyone?



I've met with several Shaolin monks but I'm **** sure I'm not a high mucketymuck lineage holder.

[tattooedmonk]

Come on down to China. There are all sorts of Taoist temples replete with Taoist gods and Taoist priests who would be happy to disillusion you. Taoism is a complex religion. It's not just "trying to find a balance"

If you have read a dime store copy of the dedaojing and think that makes you a Taoist because you think that the bagua diagram is neato you have a lot of research still to do.

And even a "philosophical" taoist (IE: someone who disregards basically all of Taoism excepting the Dedaojing and the Zhuangzi), perhaps even especially a "philosophical" taoist, should recognize that there is no shame in ignorance. After all Laozi was in favour of a "natural" state that could be described as ignorance in contrast to Gongzi's preference for higher education.did I say that it was" just" that?? I mean really ..there are so many things that I have posted and you want to pull that out of context and then sit here and "TRY" to give me a lesson? Why?? your interpretation of what a philosophical Taoist is limiting the usage ...

.....and if you know any thing about the Tao you know that there is no limit to the usage of the Tao ,Taoist, or Taoism..maybe you should stop reading dime store copies of the tao te ching and find yourself a teacher

.... in the context of what I posted it is about balance between all things ..that is why they use the yinyang to symbolize Taoism, the Tao, and Taoist..

.if you do not like the path I walk you do not have to follow

[humbleman]

Master Hsiangs style of teaching says to me, " I love my students as I would my own sons and daughters. I give you the hardest discipline not to hurt you, but because I will do anything I can to help you succeed and keep you safe when the going gets real." Grandmaster Sins style of teaching says to me, "The knowledge I impart to you is a sacred trust. The more you show me that you are worthy of that trust by the discipline you apply to yourself and your practice, the more you will learn." I think both styles are great. Could that possibly be a reflection of that "small vehicle-great vehicle" philosophy doodad I read about somewhere? Also, I've never had an experience with a teacher worthy of the name acting like a god. Not in S.D, anyway. I read that the tantric hindus and buddhists see it somewhat differently, and perhaps also certain Kun-Tao styles. My limited understanding is that when you refer to someone as a "Guru", you are giving them the reverence due a living God. Not in the religious sense that western religion uses. Personally, I think it's a lot of bull. Just because she can control the individual hair follicles in her head and make me levitate when I touch her, she thinks she's Miss Smartie Pants.:p :p :D

[humbleman]

... who wished me well with the hsing-i, thanks. There's a tantric blessing that means "I salute the God within you." If I knew the Sanskrit word, I'd extend it to you all.:D

[humbleman]

I found it. Namaste, y'all.:D

[humbleman]

...if she was acting like something, she deserves a freaking Oscar. Those who know me and/or her will get the inside joke.:D :D :D

[godzillakungfu]

I've met with several Shaolin monks but I'm **** sure I'm not a high mucketymuck lineage holder.
Yes, uhmm your point?

[shadowlin]

Grand-mullet... wow, that's original, and so adult. Next are you going to insult his mother?

Like I said. Crows and starlings. I have personally ridden with Grandmaster Sin and what strikes me is his overwhelming hospitality, graciousness, and class. He will never insult or belittle you or anyone, and certainly never ever makes claims or talks down about other styles. EVER. In fact, he has a black belt in Judo.

You think I honestly expected you to believe the stories? No. you already don't believe them, of course you won't.

All I'm doing is proving how low on the karmic totem pole you are in comparison.

---

I find the use of the word cult interesting. Fundamentalists use it to describe minority groups that exhibit close fraternal bonds and share common threads of allegiance. Fundamentalist fascists, that is.

It's not cult-like to protect and guard your Masters name. That is how it has and should always be. In ancient China, any martial artist worth his salt would lay in a puddle to let his Master walk over him, to prove his selflessness.

I suppose you could call Hui-Ko a cult fool for cutting off his hand to show his dedication to Bodhidharma. But his selfless act gave him an immortal name and statue. This loyalty and selflessness is to be sought after, not ridiculed.

----

What about Kool-Aid? I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this was the elemteary school playground. I thought that debate tactics ad hominem were the mark of an unprofessional with a small vocabulary and low self-esteem.

Wait. I was right: they are.

If you plan to debate with me, act more like some of the adults on here, like Judge Pen who remains very open and friendly.

When you insult my lineage and a man who is so beyond you he wouldn't even bother to acknowledge your poisonous verbage, then you better believe you'll need more than references to mullets and Kool-aid to win anything.

If you want a dialogue, I can do that, too. I've had many with many people of varying backgrounds. In fact last night I had a pleasant chat with a Jui-Jitsu martial artist. I eagerly listened to his lineage and history, and likewise he showed me respect.

Then again, he trained, and looked like a true martial artist. Not a forum-artist.

So, when you grow up, you can pm me.

And as for the offer that I go back and read someone's thesis on Shaolin-Do, please. I have 6 more hours of training tonight, I don't have time for that kind of waste.

thank you and good day.

[csckungfuguy]

amen shadowlin. very well put

[The Xia]

I've skimmed through this thread and others, looked at a little bit of outside stuff. There are alot of outrageous claims made in Shaolin Do. Normally, seeing such stuff would lead me to think "mcdojo!". However, Judge Pen seems to be way too savvy a guy to fall prey to Bullshido. From the surface of Shaolin Do information that I scratched, it seems that behind all the cooky claims there is something to it. As far as the cooky claims, when you combine bureaucracy with commercialism thats what you get. This is the impression Im getting.

[Judge Pen]

I don't know about savvy. . . . I'm skeptical and I take everything with a grain of salt. I understand that things get misconstrued, taken out of context, embellished, interpreted, whatever. I know that people are swayed by bias, loyalty, pre-conceived notions, ego, self-interst/preservation, etc. I judge SD as a martial art and by its strengths and weaknesses and I take it as a whole. If one wants to find a reason to find fault, then you would never commit to any martial art.

The thing is, there are SD schools that are McDojos. And there are SD schools that are not. Each region and each school makes its own decisions to a certain degree. I try to stay out of the politics for the most part and that's kept me happy punching and kicking.

[SimonM]

did I say that it was" just" that?? I mean really ..there are so many things that I have posted and you want to pull that out of context and then sit here and "TRY" to give me a lesson? Why?? your interpretation of what a philosophical Taoist is limiting the usage ...

And yet if you step far outside of those works you enter into the realm of Taoism - the religion. Even Zhuangzi is replete with mysticism. Since you claim to regect the religious elements of Taoism in favour of the purely philosophical elements...

What I find interesting is how you have chosen a very small subsection of elements of Taoism:

1) The absolute and ineffable nature of the tao.
2) The balance of dipolar opposites as represented by the taiji diagram.

To represent your interpretation.

[The Xia]

I don't know about savvy. . . . I'm skeptical and I take everything with a grain of salt. I understand that things get misconstrued, taken out of context, embellished, interpreted, whatever. I know that people are swayed by bias, loyalty, pre-conceived notions, ego, self-interst/preservation, etc. I judge SD as a martial art and by its strengths and weaknesses and I take it as a whole. If one wants to find a reason to find fault, then you would never commit to any martial art.

The thing is, there are SD schools that are McDojos. And there are SD schools that are not. Each region and each school makes its own decisions to a certain degree. I try to stay out of the politics for the most part and that's kept me happy punching and kicking.

Yeah the fact that some are mcdojos and others aren't makes me wonder. It says in the wikipedia article that all Shaolin Do belt testing is done by Sin The. If so, does this mean that belts are worth squat in the Shaolin Do organization being that the mcdojos would get the same testing?

[kwaichang]

All testing is not done by GMT but at times by the other instructor of the schols not until BB are they sometimes tested by GMT KC Yet another false story to harp on.

[The Xia]

All testing is not done by GMT but at times by the other instructor of the schols not until BB are they sometimes tested by GMT KC Yet another false story to harp on.
Yeah, I figure'd the answer would be something like that.

[BM2]

I recall watching him test the under black belts, black belts were graded by a panel of black belts, and at least half the time someone failed in the group. 69 was failing and most scores were 70,71 and maybe you would see some 72-74. The highest that I ever heard of was a 86. My highest was a 77 only because my instructor held us back between testing much longer than most. This was the old scoring before bonus points. That 86 was given in the 1970s to a now very senoir student.
Who wrote the wikipedia article ?:confused:

[godzillakungfu]

Yeah, I figure'd the answer would be something like that.
The west is similar. Lower belts by any teacher, then Brown through BB must be in front of the Elder Masters, Then anything above BB is GMT.

[The Xia]

I recall watching him test the under black belts, black belts were graded by a panel of black belts, and at least half the time someone failed in the group. 69 was failing and most scores were 70,71 and maybe you would see some 72-74. The highest that I ever heard of was a 86. My highest was a 77 only because my instructor held us back between testing much longer than most. This was the old scoring before bonus points. That 86 was given in the 1970s to a now very senoir student.
Who wrote the wikipedia article ?:confused:
The thing with wikipedia is that any user can put stuff in. Wikipedia is good but its not always accurate. However, you can often go to their works cited and start research from there.

[godzillakungfu]

Make sure you are quoting correctly The Xia.

Here is what it actually say:
Many of these schools are visited by Grandmaster Thé on an annual basis, when he conducts testing for senior black belts (2nd and above) and advanced training.

The page actually gives a fairly nuetral report.

[Judge Pen]

All of my tests, white through 3rd black, have been in front of Master Sin, but that's a rarity from what I understand.

[SDJerry]

I have tested in front of Master Sin every time as well. He's normally always late hahaha It's always a pleasure though.

[Golden Tiger]

Generally, up until the move to Cali. in 91-92, all testing was done in front of Master Sin (or Master Hiang), period. Then for a while after the move, M. Sin was returning to Lexington and the surrounding areas (Tenn, Atl, Va, etc) every 3 months to do the testing. Because I am sure it became cost prohibitive, he lowered his visits to only twice a year. About this time, the first new crop of Masters were promoted and it was decided that they could test students up to BB as needed. In Lex, M. Bill conducted the gym tests during the off times and the surrounding schools either traveled to Lex or if there was a large number, M. Sin would go to their school.

BB and above has always been in front of M Sin and a panel of same or above ranking BB's (with a few exceptions so don't bother yelling thats not how I was tested :p )

[Radhnoti]

I tested everytime up to black under GM Sin. I only knew a few students who tested under a different master...

The Xia - "...does this mean that belts are worth squat in the Shaolin Do organization being that the mcdojos would get the same testing?"

GM Sin passed everyone I ever saw him test. I believe it's assumed that it's the responsibility of each individual instructor to be certain a student is ready before sending him/her up to test. Someone comes up that not ready and the instructor is going to get a talking to. I'd say black belt is no guarantee of ability (judging entirely by myself :D ), the quality of students around 2nd black is much higher, in my opinion. Lots of only semi-serious students aim for the black, then quit after getting there...probably why the serious students don't feel you "really" begin until blackbelt.

[godzillakungfu]

I was actually in a test were someone failed under GMT.
I was also on a test where someone was actually asked to stop and test another time.


FWIW.

[csckungfuguy]

i have yet to test under gmt but have sat on panels for him. he is a very quiet and gracious person.

hey judge i have a question

what is master mullins take on csc students coming into his class for a visit? i know some sd schools frown on black belts and above coming in to train and was curious what master M thought about it

[Judge Pen]

what is master mullins take on csc students coming into his class for a visit? i know some sd schools frown on black belts and above coming in to train and was curious what master M thought about it

I don't know if the topic has ever come up while I've been in his class, but I don't think it would be an issue. Why would it be?

[kwaichang]

I trained in Texas a long while prior to training with Master Mullins for 3 years. He was very open to me and treated me as one of his own . When we noticed that I did some forms differently he said, no problem just do them thje way you were taught I enjoyed training with him at that time and still respect and like him, Kevin, and Mike . I just wish things were different as I am sure many do KC,

[csckungfuguy]

I don't know if the topic has ever come up while I've been in his class, but I don't think it would be an issue. Why would it be?


ive heard that some sd instructors treat visiting black belts with either little or no respect or flat out wont let them train. i have not heard this of master mullins so dont think i am implying that at all. just curious is all

id love to travel and train in different schools just to get a broader flavor of shaolin under gmt as it were but dont want to step on toes you know

[godzillakungfu]

Ahh more problems.

My personal experience, with the East, was 100% the opposite of what I was told.

It may be frowned upon now, for reasons other than what you suspect.

[Judge Pen]

If you came to his school, then there would be no issue with you working out with them (like KC said).

If I went to the Salt Lake City school to train when I visit there, would it be an issue?

[Golden Tiger]

ive heard that some sd instructors treat visiting black belts with either little or no respect or flat out wont let them train. i have not heard this of master mullins so dont think i am implying that at all. just curious is all

I can only speak for Lexington, but outside students have always been welcome to stop by and workout, sit in on a class or what ever. Over the years, there has been students from just about every division stop by. All are welcomed in as should be and a lot of friendships have been formed.

The problem usually comes in from the persons original instructor.:rolleyes:

[csckungfuguy]

If you came to his school, then there would be no issue with you working out with them (like KC said).

If I went to the Salt Lake City school to train when I visit there, would it be an issue?


ahhh salt lake city lol thats a touchy place

MJR did some damage at that school but i really dont see how it would be an issue if you were to email the masters and the school instructor before hand.

[csckungfuguy]

The problem usually comes in from the persons original instructor.:rolleyes:


that was my take on it as well

thanks for the heads up!

[Judge Pen]

ahhh salt lake city lol thats a touchy place

MJR did some damage at that school but i really dont see how it would be an issue if you were to email the masters and the school instructor before hand.

My wife's family is from there, so I visit often.

[godzillakungfu]

I can only speak for Lexington, but outside students have always been welcome to stop by and workout, sit in on a class or what ever. Over the years, there has been students from just about every division stop by. All are welcomed in as should be and a lot of friendships have been formed.

The problem usually comes in from the persons original instructor.:rolleyes:
CSC ask the masters and see what happens. Then PM the guys so they know the response.

They don't mind if the East comes to visit they do want to be informed. You will not be allowed to take a seminar so, don't try that route. Eventually, I think it will open up again.

East is much more open than the West. The MJR comment isn't true.

[godzillakungfu]

Ahh more problems.

My personal experience, with the East, was 100% the opposite of what I was told.

It may be frowned upon now, for reasons other than what you suspect.

I should add it was a very positive experience. More so than what I was led to believe.

Considering what I was told and who I am it was very funny. It was the complete and utter opposite to what I was told.

[BoulderDawg]

I think getting out and visiting and training at other schools is an extremely good idea. As a matter of fact I think it's essential to learn there are other training methods and styles.

I train in SD and just visited a more traditional Gong Fu school for a basic class and workout. I enjoyed it.

[csckungfuguy]

The MJR comment isn't true.


oh it is very true....he caused a huge mess that gmt had to get involved with to fix

pm me for details...maybe your thinking of someone else but this was just recent

[godzillakungfu]

Is CC still the SLC instructor?

If so, you are completely and utterly wrong.

[csckungfuguy]

Is CC still the SLC instructor?

If so, you are completely and utterly wrong.

yes cc is the new instructor there...the former one "resigned" (his name started with a m)

[godzillakungfu]

yes cc is the new instructor there...the former one "resigned" (his name started with a m)
Then you are 100% wrong about the old instructor.

[John Many Jars]

About a year ago I told Master David I was thinking about visiting the schools in the East. He just basically told me to introduce myself, tell them where I'm from and be polite.


Good for you boulderdawg. =)

[lxtruong]

ive heard that some sd instructors treat visiting black belts with either little or no respect or flat out wont let them train. i have not heard this of master mullins so dont think i am implying that at all. just curious is all

id love to travel and train in different schools just to get a broader flavor of shaolin under gmt as it were but dont want to step on toes you know

I know for a fact that both

1. I've visted the Lexington school was greeted with nothing with courtesy and friendliness. Of course I trained in Texas so it's not like I was a total stranger. I called in advance, which is only common courtesy.

2. In Austin people from both the "west" and some of the other factions have stopped by and MJ has never to my knownledge turned them away. I can recall at least one blue belt from one of the atlanta schools that was visiting and sat in for a class.

[godzillakungfu]

ive heard that some sd instructors treat visiting black belts with either little or no respect or flat out wont let them train. i have not heard this of master mullins so dont think i am implying that at all. just curious is all

id love to travel and train in different schools just to get a broader flavor of shaolin under gmt as it were but dont want to step on toes you know
Be respectful. I know some of the stories behind your above comments. The problems weren't always caused by the East instructors.

Crap I had know clue you were banned. Anyone know why?

[orion_steel]

They don't mind if the East comes to visit they do want to be informed. You will not be allowed to take a seminar so, don't try that route. Eventually, I think it will open up again.

East is much more open than the West. The MJR comment isn't true.

I have seen instructors and masters act horrible in the past. When i first went to the SD school that i attended in college the instructor flat out told me to go away. I have seen (on at least 3 occasions) students from other schools get insulted for wearing different uniforms. I once saw EML insult one of the west masters while on of his/her students was in the room....

as far as material goes, I have had to re-learn my material several different times because it was "not right". I have even learned some material one way that was recently film with EML and then have to re-learn it cause he says that it wasnt right....even though i got it from him on film, hehehehehe.

so, to me....i think that the kentucky/lexington division is friendly....to others from lexington/kentucky (but not always winchester).

but that is just my opinion.....i could be wrong.

[BentMonk]

There are hundreds of pages of debate and discussion about all things Shaolin Do floating all over the net, and elsewhere. That fact alone makes SD "real" in many ways. All of this attention to the pros, cons, substance, and origins of SD have shown us that;

1. There is CMA present in SD. I'm talking about the material itself, not an opinion of performance.

2. There are SD schools that strongly emphasize technique application, proper form and body mechanics, and physical conditioning.

3. SD schools are like people. They all have strengths and weaknesses. They each see their point of view as correct, and sometimes forget that everyone else does the same thing.

4. SD is subject to all of the same drama as any other endeavor involving a large group of imperfect human beings.

5. SD is no different than any other MA. There are instructors, students, and fighters that are excellent, good, fair, and poor. This is a matter of effort, not what is real.

It is up to the current instructors and students to change SD for the better. If we do not, it will be gone with GM Sin. Personal issues need to be set aside in the name of artistic preservation and fellowship. We all talk it, let's start walking it. I consider anyone who studies any combat art my family. We may not love or like each other, but we can at least show respect in the name of the art and mutual effort spent preserving and practicing the art. There will always be those who thrive on drama, and are comfortable with their minds closed. Rank in anything is not a measure of personal ethics or morality. It is up to us as individuals to lead by example, and hope to one day be the ruling majority. Peace, love, and happy training to ALL. :D

[Judge Pen]

It is up to the current instructors and students to change SD for the better. If we do not, it will be gone with GM Sin. Personal issues need to be set aside in the name of artistic preservation and fellowship. We all talk it, let's start walking it. I consider anyone who studies any combat art my family. We may not love or like each other, but we can at least show respect in the name of the art and mutual effort spent preserving and practicing the art. There will always be those who thrive on drama, and are comfortable with their minds closed. Rank in anything is not a measure of personal ethics or morality. It is up to us as individuals to lead by example, and hope to one day be the ruling majority. Peace, love, and happy training to ALL. :D

I hope you're right. Personally I see a train wreck coming once GMT passes.

[Flying-Monkey]

This thread is annoying. I wish it would die already. It seems that no one is going to change their minds.

[Ou Ji]

Shao-Lin Do, Shao-Lin Do, Do I bother you?

Dog Face Monk, Dog Face Monk, Does this bother you?

Shao-Lin Do, Dog Face Monk, real or not-real?

Hey, is this bothering you? Read some more. You have to you know. It's under your skin now.

You know you can't stop reading this thread.

Shao-Lin Do, Dog Face Monk, Sin The

:D

[godzillakungfu]

Yeah it will never end. I think if it was an "accepted" art, no one would care.


Yes, when GMT passes it will get very ugly IMO.

Before someone says something Kyokushin is a highly respected art. It has 3 seperate entities and a possible fourth up and coming.

[Judge Pen]

This thread is annoying. I wish it would die already. It seems that no one is going to change their minds.

As soon as this thread dies, then someone will start a new one and it will start ALL OVER AGAIN! At least people can vent here. No, it won't change anything, but I for one has learned a lot about my own style here. Plus, I've met some great people too.

[kwaichang]

Barring an accident, GMT will probably out live us all. Besides that, if he were to die suddenly and soon it would change nothing, all the masters that remain are already adjusting for position. That is normal it is a rather large organization many would like to lead it. I personally will continue to train and and follow the Shaolin Tao / Do. Trying to improve and grow, I feel many would do the same and only those at a very high rank will bicker. They can do what they want I will train and grow. It will be sad if it happened as there is so much to learn, and many would feel lost. However, as the art of SD stands now GMT does not tell us, the students, how to train and what to do, he allows each of us to follow our own path within the system itself. Therefore, nothing will change those that remain will continue to train and preserve the art of SD for the sole purpose of the historic significance itself. Remember Shaolin was and is an art constantly changing and progressing with time as we should with our training. KC

[Golden Tiger]

I have seen instructors and masters act horrible in the past. When i first went to the SD school that i attended in college the instructor flat out told me to go away.

Shoot me a pm and let me know who it was please. I'll make a few calls for you.:mad:



I have seen (on at least 3 occasions) students from other schools get insulted for wearing different uniforms.

Heck, I have seen a system torn in half over uniforms. 3 ocassions? thats nothing.
:D


I once saw EML insult one of the west masters while on of his/her students was in the room....


If one of the west students was in the room, I am sure they felt the same way.:D

It's no secret that there is no love lost between the EML and EMD/S.


as far as material goes, I have had to re-learn my material several different times because it was "not right". I have even learned some material one way that was recently film with EML and then have to re-learn it cause he says that it wasnt right....even though i got it from him on film, hehehehehe

Perhaps mistakes were made the first time and corrected later on? Having taught before, I have done it, I imagine other teachers have done it. Just do it the way it best fits you. You'll be fine.



i think that the kentucky/lexington division is friendly....to others from lexington/kentucky (but not always winchester).



Master Nance's students regularly come up for this and that. I am not sure why you feel that anyone from winchester would not be welcome. Trust me, everyone is welcome....well, except MK.



Personally I see a train wreck coming once GMT passes....
......Yes, when GMT passes it will get very ugly IMO.



Unfortunately, it will. Heck, its pretty ugly at times and he is still around. Tell you what, if it happens and everything goes to heII, come and find me at Shady Acres Old Folks Home and I will teach you Golden Tiger Do...or Tao...or Kung Fu. I have all the material you know and some that you don't;)

[MasterKiller]

Master Nance's students regularly come up for this and that. I am not sure why you feel that anyone from winchester would not be welcome. Trust me, everyone is welcome....well, except MK. Holding on to anger cannot be good for someone at your advanced age, GT. Crack open an Ensure, take a Geritol, and relax.

[humbleman]

...if she was acting like something, she deserves a freaking Oscar. Those who know me and/or her will get the inside joke.:D :D :D
someone might start believing this and think there's something to it...:eek:

[humbleman]

Shao-Lin Do, Shao-Lin Do, Do I bother you?

Dog Face Monk, Dog Face Monk, Does this bother you?

Shao-Lin Do, Dog Face Monk, real or not-real?

Hey, is this bothering you? Read some more. You have to you know. It's under your skin now.

You know you can't stop reading this thread.

Shao-Lin Do, Dog Face Monk, Sin The

:D love it, LOVE IT!!! IT'S ALL TOO BEA-UUUU-TI-FUL!!!!

[humbleman]

coooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmm........:D :D :D

[Judge Pen]

humbleman, you are a unique individual.

[Golden Tiger]

humbleman, you are a unique individual.

Without a doubt.....

[humbleman]

humbleman, you are a unique individual. ...any truth to the rumours being circulated that S.D. teachers are highly eccentric???:rolleyes: :confused:

[humbleman]

Without a doubt..... enjoy it when it gets like this. When all of you senior guys start going at it, it reminds me of the "free for all" that was on the K.E.T. series, where the seven top ranked masters got into the ring and fought until only one was left standing. Grandmaster Sin laughingly referred to them as the "magnificent seven." Watching the brawl, I didn't see anything that looked fake to me.:eek: :eek: :eek:

[kungfujunky]

enjoy it when it gets like this. When all of you senior guys start going at it, it reminds me of the "free for all" that was on the K.E.T. series, where the seven top ranked masters got into the ring and fought until only one was left standing. Grandmaster Sin laughingly referred to them as the "magnificent seven." Watching the brawl, I didn't see anything that looked fake to me.:eek: :eek: :eek:

id like to see that one!

[humbleman]

id like to see that one! I'm sure one of the people on this thread has it taped and would be willing to tape it and send it to you. It was real, that's a fact. My reaction was something like "Holy Toledo!" only in a different state. Also, I had better quickly qualify a previous statement. I am not nor have ever been a S.D. teacher, nor do I mean to imply that my fantastic Sensei was in any way eccentric. Actually, he was no joke at all. I had heard rumours of eccentricity floating around, though. Unique individual? Does this mean I have to go sit on the group W (as in weird) bench now? (see Arlo Guthries "Alices Resturaunt" for explanation.):rolleyes:

[humbleman]

humbleman, you are a unique individual. ...hear Brian now..."Don't tell him that, you'll just get him started...":p

[kungfujunky]

I'm sure one of the people on this thread has it taped and would be willing to tape it and send it to you. It was real, that's a fact. My reaction was something like "Holy Toledo!" only in a different state. Also, I had better quickly qualify a previous statement. I am not nor have ever been a S.D. teacher, nor do I mean to imply that my fantastic Sensei was in any way eccentric. Actually, he was no joke at all. I had heard rumours of eccentricity floating around, though. Unique individual? Does this mean I have to go sit on the group W (as in weird) bench now? (see Arlo Guthries "Alices Resturaunt" for explanation.):rolleyes:



if anyone would do that id even pay for it

im a student of the soards but have been researching sd for a while and i would love to see that bit of history!

[humbleman]

if anyone would do that id even pay for it

im a student of the soards but have been researching sd for a while and i would love to see that bit of history! later, people.:o

[kungfujunky]

im curious what people think of the forms in the newest clips posted on shao-lin.com

http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28

i know judge penn showed us the kwan tao form...let me know what you all think of these ones posted

thx!

[brucereiter]

im curious what people think of the forms in the newest clips posted on shao-lin.com

http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28

i know judge penn showed us the kwan tao form...let me know what you all think of these ones posted

thx!

anyone have any tips on how to view the clips. i hit the link media player 9 opens. and i see no video ???

b

[kungfujunky]

it took me a while to download the video..maybe you just have to wait?

i know firefox didnt allow me to do it but aol did

[brucereiter]

it was nice to see the new csc denver clips. i have meet a few of the people performing and all are great people and were very welcoming when i visited their schools. the way they move is a bit diffrent than the way we are taught at the atlanta csc, but that is not a bad thing just a diffrent understanding of the same matieral.

chen xinjia "83" tai chi chuan was the most strikingly diffrent interpritation from what i have understood but then again if you watch elder master mullins he looks completly diffrent as does sr master grooms and grandmaster the'.

again it is not a bad thing to be diffrent! chen xiaowong, chen zhonglie and ren guangyi all look completly diffrent doing for example the xinjia form. who is "correct"

any thoughts?

[Mas Judt]

again it is not a bad thing to be diffrent! chen xiaowong, chen zhonglie and ren guangyi all look completly diffrent doing for example the xinjia form. who is "correct"

REPLY: The ones who follow taiji principles? Something I could not see in these clips... it was certainly.... unique.

[kungfujunky]

for the chen he was moving fast as it was a demo and they covered a lot of forms...ive seen mjk do it at tai chi speed and it is impressive to watch his balance and control

other than that the first form (broadsword) imo was very well done! mms did a great job!

[Mas Judt]

No excuses. It was NOT Chen TJQ. It was cr@p. Pure and simple.

[brucereiter]

No excuses. It was NOT Chen TJQ. It was cr@p. Pure and simple.

how do you decide what is and isnt chen tai chi chuan?
do you practice chen style taijiquan?


REPLY: The ones who follow taiji principles? Something I could not see in these clips... it was certainly.... unique.

my big question about shaolin do is why so many people who do not practice it care so strongly one way or another about someone elses understanding of what ever martial style it is they say they do?

do you speak so disrespectfully to peoples face? if you met master keller (the guy who did the chen form) would you say to him that his taiji is crap?

does your teacher teach you to disrespect other martial artists ways?

wouldnt your teacher be ashamed of you? weather you are right or wrong ...

practice your art. enjoy what you do. let others enjoy what they do. live and let live!

[Mas Judt]

"how do you decide what is and isnt chen tai chi chuan?
do you practice chen style taijiquan? "

REPLY: I practice Chang style, but workout with Chen players. Chen has a distinct methodology and flavor - none of which was exhibited in the SD clip. If you don't consider me credible - go seek out Chen Xioa Wang - and ask him. He might be more polite, unless you feed him the line of bull your system propogates.

"my big question about shaolin do is why so many people who do not practice it care so strongly one way or another about someone elses understanding of what ever martial style it is they say they do?"

REPLY: It's simple - the lies put forth by your organization compel people who actually practice the systems you claim feel the public should know that SD is a fraud. It's like serving horse-meat and calling it Angus beef, then wondering why people who serve Angus beef might be offended.



"do you speak so disrespectfully to peoples face? if you met master keller (the guy who did the chen form) would you say to him that his taiji is crap?"

REPLY: If the situation calls for it, yes. For the most part I'm a very diplomatic fellow. However, I might not get a chance to say anything, as I'd be laughing too hard when they told me it was Chen TJQ.

"does your teacher teach you to disrespect other martial artists ways?"

REPLY: Does your teacher teach you to be a fool? Oh wait...

"wouldnt your teacher be ashamed of you? weather you are right or wrong ..."

REPLY: No, actually. He'd probably wonder how you guys got to be such tools to beleive that was Chen TJQ, and offer you an opportunnity to come play. I'm a lot nicer, and nowhere as willing to risk law suits as he is.

"practice your art. enjoy what you do. let others enjoy what they do. live and let live!"

REPLY: This I agree with. Except when a marketing machine is fueling a massive fraud and giving good arts a bad name. I've seen SD first hand. It is rudimentary at best - pretty much some Karate with some fantasy kung fu painted over it.

This has been pretty much proven over and over. Whenever one of the layers on here dissect a video (like Sin The' doing 'mantis') - we are told that 'oh that video does not represent us." RIIIIIIGGHHHHT.

Okay, I'm done being mean to the little kid. Promise I'll be nice from now on.

[BoulderDawg]

Having seen this thread go on...and on........and on...............and on. I just wonder why any SD people bother to post here.

I recognize there are people who hate us but what can I do about that? That's the price of being popular!:D

A Bulletin Board is a lazy man's way of criticizing something. I say if someone has a problem with our style they can show up at the school in person and tell us why.

[Mas Judt]

It has nothing to do with hate. It has to do with veracity. Something SD lacks...

[kungfujunky]

It has nothing to do with hate. It has to do with veracity. Something SD lacks...


have you been to a class?

you claim to know how bad we are at what we do but whos to say what you do is any better?

it is an endless debate.

after watching hundreds and hundreds of clips from various systems about what they "know" is right and true...i find the martial aspect of csc or shaolin do much more concrete.

it works for me and thousands of others. and thats what matters at the end of the day.

btw the chen clip you claim is garbage.. i have watched a few others on youtube that cant even compare to what mjk was doing. and they were supposedly of chinese masters.

who knows.

everyone is right so the debate is silly in the end. i asked for opinions on the cma aspect of the clips shown and all mas j could say was its crap. well that clears that up! lol

anyone else have an opinion on the cma aspect of the csc demo?

lmk! either in pm or on here. id like to here others opinions.

:D

[Mas Judt]

All I can say is.... wow. That is a really convincing statement.

You - a member of a group that teaches outright lies, and has no idea what it is you are not understanding - are able to tell us that you can 'just tell' your guy is superior to the others.

See - this is my point. I'm sure your a nice kid. I'm sure you train hard. I'm sure plenty of people enjoy SD training.

But that does make it what Sin The' claims it to be. That was NOT Chen TJQ - not even close. The Mantis set The' performed on video was laughable. Really, really funny. I'm not saying this to be mean. It's just what it is.

You assume I have some form of animosity. Nope, not here. If anything I'm sympathetic due to my awareness of Indo exageration.

But your organization, and many of the schools in it lie about what you are, what you teach, and what you offer.

And no amount of wishing it not to be so can change the fact that there has been a systematic effort on the behalf of SD to defraud the public. The evidence is overwhelming.

And for the record, I've seen SD first hand, which why I find the pro-SD posts so funny.

[Mas Judt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0tc8IGYpfU

Is this one of the guys you thought wasn't as good as your 'master'?

[BoulderDawg]

it works for me and thousands of others. and thats what matters at the end of the day.

Very true....and one thing I've learned from Shao-lin Do is respect. I respect the opinion of others who may not feel a high reguard for the art. That said we, as supporters of SD, should stand aside and let others post in this particular thread.

Not to say that someone should not create a positve thread about SD. Someone should and let us tell the people on this board the joys we have experienced. I'm sure that others here would respect a thread that would be dedicated to the positive side of Shao-lin Do.

[Mas Judt]

Why not just answer the questions brought up? Why not face the truth?

This type of cognitive disonance is typical in MA. You are faced with the truth, but don't want to face it.

It's hard to respect an organization that lies this much.

It's easy respect folks who don't misrepresent themselves to the public, no matter how bad they might be.

[kungfujunky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0tc8IGYpfU

Is this one of the guys you thought wasn't as good as your 'master'?

that was .....interesting :rolleyes:


that is extremely similar to what ive seen mk do before. he did another demo in phx last year where he did the form at normal tai chi speed. the stance work is obviously a bit different and mk was more suspended by a thread than master checn showed but otherwise that was very similar.

thx for the link!

and boulderdawg

good point!

im off to train but please i would like others opinions on some of the weapons forms etc!

thx again!

[Mas Judt]

"I say if someone has a problem with our style they can show up at the school in person and tell us why."

I did in the early 90's at a school - I think it was in Vegas. I was in town for a trade show, saw the words Shaolin and went to check it out. What I saw was very bad Karate, and little or no understanding of basic CMA concepts. Spent a good time in the parking lot after class talking to the folks I met there. They were simply astounded by things I thought were rudimentry.

This POV was reinforced when Willow Sword was a defender of SD, and made me spit my Latte out I was laughing so hard, when he said the Karate one-step sparring garbage I saw was valid because they did 'combat' kung fu.

Sheesh. Now since then I've talked to some guys here, and I'm willing to stretch my imagination that maybe, maybe there is some kind of Kun Tao at the root of what you do. But it does not forgive the decades of misrepresentation.