Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Green Cloud]

I met a guy once who claimed to do authentic monkey style, when I asked who taught him he took me to the Bronx Zoo and pointed at a Chimpanzee and said that guy.

What was I to say to that, think about it for a second. How hard is it to find some chinese dude in a freak show that looks like a dog??? Just look in the guiness book of world records the kung fu dog boy is in it.

Any way who's to prove what's what, That guy had no family or any lineage to speak of. How can you prove he is not the grandmaster of the system.

Any way I don't care about SD and I have been in this buiss. a long time and when it comes to schools like this their image is created. Throw an old poor Chinese fool some Bucks and you to can have him pose in a kung fu uniform for you while you take a picture.

greencloud.net

[BentMonk]

Very good points.



If there is no "true Shaolin," then by what yardstick are we comparing current Shaolin? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that pre-20th century Shaolin Kung Fu was MUCH different than the Shaolin practiced at the temple now, but I think the main differences were probably more along the lines of applications, martial intent, fewer forms, and fewer weapons than what we see today. Is it your contention that the Hong and Lohan forms are commercialist Shaolin inventions?

At least some of the money coming to the Monk teachers goes toward Buddhist purposes (In particular, I'm thinking of Shi Guolin.) Granted I'm not a Buddhist, but I can respect money going to a cause other than an MA organization.



As you said, "There are hundreds of pages of debate and discussion about all things Shaolin Do floating all over the net, and elsewhere." Therefore, someone besides us HAS "figured it out." I don't think SD is a "complete fraud" however. I just think the style as a whole should have a slice of humble pie rather than saying "yeah, all you other styles are so fake, just because your arts are Chinese doesn't mean they're REAL."

On a side note, due to a post from another forum user in my area, I found out there's a SD school not too far from where I am currently studying Kung Fu. I wish them the best of luck, as they are currently renting space from a dance school. At our Kung Fu class though, no one has been "up in arms" about it though. You know, kinda like how in REAL life (most) MMA types aren't as snooty about TMA as (most of) the MMA types who post on Martial Arts forums.

No, I don't think the Hong and Lohan forms are recent inventions. I do think that all things MA are very commercialized, especially anything Shaolin. I agree completely that there is a need for some humble pie in SD, but the same could be said of Wing Chun, MMA, or anything else that involves the human ego. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in what you do. The problem arises when that pride swells to the point of closing minds, and creating a false sense of superiority. Not everyone in SD has this problem. I know the same is true in Wing Chun, MMA, etc. because I have known and trained with many people of various MA backgrounds.

[Judge Pen]

From some of the historical posts in this thread (MasterKiller has some excellent posts), Shaolin Do seems to be a by-product of martial arts blending in Indonesia. Why not just come out with it instead of perpetuating the "Shaolin Grandmaster" story?

We do come out with that. There's also the Su Kong sotry. How can you fault us for that (true or not)? Many styles that are well respected have dubious lineages and history blended with myth and superstition. SD is no different.

No one alive today (within the SD organization) including Sin The and Hiang The were alive when Su Kong supposedly existed. It's all based on hearsay and legend. So what if its true?

The only thing verifiable is that we are a blending of chinese martial arts (and a smattering of JMA such as the Ippons) from different teachers in Indonesia.

Flying Monkey, don't be a d1ck. We've talked about this respectfully before. Most CMA history as claimed by respected teachers is bullsh1t. And I do think that SD has ties to the arts taught inside the temples and styles that were prevelant outside the temple. Most of the time people don't take the time to teach them or learn them properly (present company included)

[Judge Pen]

Xia this is one out of many comercial schools that are out there case in point united studios, Vilaris, Shaolin kempo, and so forth. They are all loosely based on CMA.

These styles are only as good as the guy that made them up. One thing these schools are good at is creating an image and marketing themselves.

To admit that they are full of it would not be good for their self image and when it come to the members well they defend their style to the very bitter end.

After all it's hard for martial artist to admit that his Black Belt is lets say just a black belt.


Rank means nothing to me anymore. I respect the time and effort people put into training and sometimes rank is significant of that and other times its significant of money or nepotism.

All CMA forms are only as good as the person who made them up and the manner is which they are passed down.

[Judge Pen]

No problem.

The grandmaster story flies in the face of Chinese martial arts history, thats why it is not to be believed. The Kung Fu craze of the 70s made Shaolin "in" for people interested in martial arts. Claiming to have the ultimate in Shaolin martial arts will sell wheras saying you have a product of Indonesian blending would be more diffucult.


:D

I'm not an old timer, but when SD started it was before the "kung fu" craze. It was called karate openly and the students were told that it was really Chinese in origin and came through Indonesia (where it picked up the Japanese trappings in a Japanese occupied country. So we have always been up front with the blendings of martial arts and their CMA origins.

Heck, people and family I know ask me how my karate or my Tae Kwon Do is going, because to them, its all the same and they have no concept of the differences.

And Xia, I apologize if I was a bit abrupt.

[Judge Pen]

Wich 6 temles are you refering to?? Whats a Hua ??? Iron Bone:rolleyes: ??? And you leraned all those styles including Hung Ga Jeeezz louise you must be like great or something.

KCs pretty good. Much better than me, but he's been trainging a lot longer too.

Hell I know reputable guys that have been teaching and studying just Hung Gar for over 30 years and they are still trying to master that style.

I do too. I'm still trying to master the stuff I've learned. It should always be a work in progress.

As far as Flying Monkey who you mistakenly refered as Xia why would you call him a D--k, I have spoken to him on several matters and he seems to be a good guy.

I've spoken to him too and he does seem to be a good guy. Good guys can also act like d1cks from time to time. Nothing agasint him.

He is definately not a troll he studied kung fu under Chan Sao Jung ( the monkey king) as far as I'm concerned he know what's what.

I agree; from our conversations I have no doubt that he knows his monkey.

Tung to long what style of preying mantis you know like seven star or is it southern preying mantis???

KC also knows his stuff. And he studied 7 Star several years ago. Its nice to talk to him and he can point out the difference in the mantis he originally leanred vs. he was that SD plays the mantis and talk about the differnt emphasis and applications of each.

greencloud.net

Sorry, my answers were in bold.

[Flying-Monkey]

You guys can call me what every you like. I'm just tired I of SD's claims.

JP

You can call me a d!ck. That's fine. When we spoke, I told you I questioned SD history. I question everything. Even my own style's.

I had some clips of SD. I think they were from Mullen's old site. About 5 years ago, I saved them and showed them to a few masters (hung gar N. Shaolin Wing chun, kempo etc). The first thing most of them did was laugh. But they all agreed that it wasn't kung fu.

I knew I guy in college. I saw him doing a form in the gym. It looked like hung gar but the stances were higher and he was a little stiff. I asked him if he did kung fu. He said "No. It's %$'#! kempo. It is based on Hung gar."

If SD claimed something like that, no one would really have a problem with them. But their websites give the feeling that it is traditional Shaolin. And the way some of the SD cats on this forum act, they feel it is traditional.

My system has a few Mi Zong forms in it. They are Pek Kwar Mi Zong. They are different or they seem to have been . I will not argue with a guy who mainly pratices Mi Zong on these points.

Our Pek Kwar is different from the other Pek Kwar you can see. It is because they are not the same lineage. Our Pek Kwar is hard and direct. If you see TSPK Pek Kwar I form and one of the other Pek Kwars forms, you will see some similarities. BUT there are different. We make not claims of their lineage.

[Green Cloud]

High JD how are you??? Unfortunately Xia and flying monkey stumbled on to the exclusive SD thread.

They were both flabergasted by how they were treated when they asked a few questions about SD.

The thread should read SD members only not is it real, obviously the SD people get a little touchy about their style.

You can't blame the KF forum members when they accidently stumle on to this thread.

Just like my self when I saw this thread my first response was WTF. As far KCs response some of the terminology is wrong to begin with. On top that KCs response was missleading, he made it sound that Hung Ga and all those styles are part of SD.

He did not say he studied outside of SD and saying Lohan Chuan Hung Ga an all the other styles are in SD is like sayIng I know Choy Li Fut but I know Hung Ga because I know CLF.

greencloud.net

[Judge Pen]

You guys can call me what every you like. I'm just tired I of SD's claims.

JP

You can call me a d!ck. That's fine. When we spoke, I told you I questioned SD history. I question everything. Even my own style's.

And I enjoyed speaking with you and we agreed on many things. I was in a ****y mood this morning, so I was probably a bit more abrupt with you than the circumstance dictated. We all have bad days, right? I did notice that your stance and tone on things were much more pleseant and respectful on the phone then on the forum, but that's probably a function of keyboarding.

And I understand that you're tired of SD's claims; that's fine. We're not bothering you. This thread will keep floating around and you don't have to read it if its annoying to you. As we discovered when we spoke, we can actually find quite a few things that we agree on.

[Judge Pen]

High JD how are you??? Unfortunately Xia and flying monkey stumbled on to the exclusive SD thread.

They were both flabergasted by how they were treated when they asked a few questions about SD.

The thread should read SD members only not is it real, obviously the SD people get a little touchy about their style.

You can't blame the KF forum members when they accidently stumle on to this thread.

Just like my self when I saw this thread my first response was WTF. As far KCs response some of the terminology is wrong to begin with. On top that KCs response was missleading, he made it sound that Hung Ga and all those styles are part of SD.

He did not say he studied outside of SD and saying Lohan Chuan Hung Ga an all the other styles are in SD is like sayIng I know Choy Li Fut but I know Hung Ga because I know CLF.

greencloud.net

It's not an exculsive SD thread, but it is a thread exclusively about SD (and ocassionly some other topics). I have no problem with people asking legitimate questions, but forgive me for thinking that someone may actually be antagonistic instead of curious. Hung Gar isn't part of SD, but we have a version of Tiger-Crane duet. And KC did study 7 Star mantis before he took the first class of SD. I'm not sure if he studied any Hung Gar, but they man has a diverse MA background before SD. It's nice to compare notes with him.

How you ask goes a long way on how someone will answer. You and I had a friendly discourse on SD because you were polite and respectful while equally communicating your doubt and issues as to the legitimacy of the style. It was because of that communicaiton that I even took the time to post clips of me doing a form and fighting which led to even more discourse.

[Golden Tiger]

Unfortunately Xia and flying monkey stumbled on to the exclusive SD thread.

They were both flabergasted by how they were treated when they asked a few questions about SD.


Lets see....

1st post

I vote that it is not for real. My vote is based on what they claim they are.

2nd post

The drunken sword I watched showed little understanding of the sword. Especially, There is a lack of understanding in the wrist.

3rd post

The same goes for the spear vs broadsword.

The woman with the broadsword started with the sword in the right hand.
She showed a lack of understanding of proper attacks and defenses.
Her left hand movement was wrong.

The man with spear was the same.

He showed a lack of understanding of the weapon all together.
His attacks and defenses were non-sense.

There was a website with more forms. There were styles on that site that I didn't know, but i can easy see that they were wrong.

His first 3 posts seemed less than enquisative don't you think? More like I am right, what you do is wrong. Sorry he got flabergasted.:rolleyes:


Then we have the flabergasted The Xia....

1st post

I mean come on, Shaolin Do claims a man with hypertrichosis was taken in by Shaolin monks after being abandonded by his parents. Then they claim he learned everything Shaolin had and became the temple's first "grandmaster". On top of that, they claim that this is the Southern Shaolin Temple......
They expect people to believe that.

2nd post


Lets cut to the point......What the hell is Shaolin Do?

3rd post


kungfujunky, even the Shaolin Doka (a new term) on this forum don't defend such claims.


So Green Cloud, I too wonder why the SD faithful would get touchy when two people introduce themselves so politely and seek only information. ;)

[Radhnoti]

Lunghushan, I've not seen Su Kong Tai Djin in any other lineage excepting those beginning with the The' family. Could you elaborate please?

FM - "But their websites give the feeling that it is traditional Shaolin. And the way some of the SD cats on this forum act, they feel it is traditional."

Chinese enclaves in Indonesia often indicate they have the "real" kung-fu or that theirs is unchanged or purest. I suppose the feeling (of those IN the enclaves) is that the cultural revolution forced so much change, to the martial arts still inside China, that those martial artists in the Chinese enclaves were the last "true" practitioners. Also, many styles of kuntao teach bagua, hsing-i, and tai chi.
I've compared some kuntao schools claims against those of SD and the similarities, in many cases, is surprising.

Here's a website backing a bit of what I said:
http://www.mindspring.com/~achentaiji/kun%20tao.htm

Here's one that echoes GM Sin's, "If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport."

http://www.worldkungfu.com/kunhist.html

Here's a site stating that many kuntao schools had to rename their arts because of an Indonesian hatred of Chinese things/people:

ww.absoluteastronomy.com /encyclopedia/k/ku/kuntao.htm

Here's a kuntao school that renamed itself "kempo" because Japanese schools were so common...they also claim shaolin lineage, as do so many other kuntao schools:

http://www.mts.net/~sillum/art7.html

Anyway...there's LOTS more out there, in fact every time I check google to make little replies like this I find new things I hadn't before. Shaolin-do is kuntao and the stances they take on lots of issue are NOT dissimilar to other kuntao schools, in my opinion.

[lunghushan]

Lunghushan, I've not seen Su Kong Tai Djin in any other lineage excepting those beginning with the The' family. Could you elaborate please?


Unfortunately I can't remember where, but I think it was in a book from China. If I come across it I'll post the reference up here. But it's hard to forget a hairy faced guy.

[The Xia]

And Xia, I apologize if I was a bit abrupt.
No problem Judge Pen.

And heres for you Golden Tiger.

My first post


Wow this thread is long lol. Is this KFM's longest thread? Just from skimming through, this seems like a very complex and convoluted situation. Would someone be kind enough to define Shaolin-Do in a nutshell?
This was ignored so I then posted.


I went to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin-Do
From first glance, one thing I find suspect is that Su Kong T'ai Djin mastered everything in the Shaolin temple and is therefore the "first ever Grandmaster of Shaolin."
Would you guys say this article is accurate?
And heres a challenge for you guys who've been debating the details back and forth.......is Shaolin-Do real Shaolin Gongfu?
And are they really making a movie on Sin The?
Then after this.


I've skimmed through this thread and others, looked at a little bit of outside stuff. There are alot of outrageous claims made in Shaolin Do. Normally, seeing such stuff would lead me to think "mcdojo!". However, Judge Pen seems to be way too savvy a guy to fall prey to Bullshido. From the surface of Shaolin Do information that I scratched, it seems that behind all the cooky claims there is something to it. As far as the cooky claims, when you combine bureaucracy with commercialism thats what you get. This is the impression Im getting.
And lastly.


Yeah the fact that some are mcdojos and others aren't makes me wonder. It says in the wikipedia article that all Shaolin Do belt testing is done by Sin The. If so, does this mean that belts are worth squat in the Shaolin Do organization being that the mcdojos would get the same testing?
These were my first posts. Far less blunt huh? I knew some on this forum, like Judge Pen, didn't buy the Su Kong story. It not only reads like a myth, it defies Gung Fu history. However, no one answered straight up what Shaolin Do is when I first asked. Its pretty clear that its a product of Indonesian blending (as Judge Pen acknowledged), but Shaolin Do sites still stick to the "Grandmaster" story. Look at http://www.shaolin-do.com/

[Green Cloud]

Lets see....

1st post


2nd post


3rd post


His first 3 posts seemed less than enquisative don't you think? More like I am right, what you do is wrong. Sorry he got flabergasted.:rolleyes:


Then we have the flabergasted The Xia....

1st post Ok let's see flying monkeys posted that the style isn't real, let's look at the title of the thread. It's asking members to give their opinion on whether the style is real or not. FM simply stated his opinion


2nd post FM is once again giving his educated opinion on the strait sword and simply offering his critique. It didn't seem rood



3rd post FM talks abou the two man set, well after watching it my self I would have to say that it was a bit chopy and the set didn't display the same type of energy that one sees in traditional 2 man sets. Lets just say it's different.




So Green Cloud, I too wonder why the SD faithful would get touchy when two people introduce themselves so politely and seek only information. ;) I don't know if you guys ever venture on the other forums like the KFF and the southern forum it's absolutely cut throat. FM was being reserved in my opinion.

Hell I'm a respected Sifu and the guys on this forum go off on me all the time, You can't take it to heart it's just a way to cut through the fat.

Once again from what I've read here I don't think these guys are out of line at all.

The problem is the title of the thread it self " Is SD real" So people are inclined to coment and speak there minds.

Just change the name of the thread to we are SD and we don't care what the rest of you think. That will eliminate nasty discusions.

greencloud.net

[Golden Tiger]

Sorry about that The Xia, I went back as far as I could in the time I had. My apologies.

Green Cloud, I don't mind being slammed one bit as long as the slamming is based in soo sort of personal experience. But just jumping on the band wagon as so many do here, well, I get annoyed with that.

[Judge Pen]

The problem is the title of the thread it self " Is SD real" So people are inclined to coment and speak there minds.

greencloud.net


Yep, and the thread was started by a poster with a total on "1" post on his account. Troll anyone?

Regarding Su Kong, I don't worry about it. Part of me would love for a book in China (or anywhere outside of SD's camp) to turn up referencing him as the long-lost Grand-master or whatever, just to see the fur fly around here (pun intended), but my point is whether he was real or not (and you would think that if he were real there would be independant verification somewhere) it doesn't matter in my training. If I'm asked about SD's history by a student, I'm very candid and it starts with "the story goes . . . . " Then I tell them that I think our material migrated and blended and became what it is today.

[Yao Sing]

More appropriately the thread should be called 'Is Shaolin-Do real Shaolin?' as that seems to be the issue in contention.

We've acertained that it is a real martial art although what variety has yet to be proven (or disproven).

[Judge Pen]

More appropriately the thread should be called 'Is Shaolin-Do real Shaolin?' as that seems to be the issue in contention.

We've acertained that it is a real martial art although what variety has yet to be proven (or disproven).

I guess we have to define what "real shaolin" is. Good luck doing that. :D

[The Xia]

Sorry about that The Xia, I went back as far as I could in the time I had. My apologies.
No problem.

[BoulderDawg]

Here's a question for some of you SDers (Black Belt and above):

Our school has frequent festivals (especially during the summer) and I try to make it to all of them if I can. We have one coming up called "Chi Kai Po An Sho Chang" or "Drunken Beggar Stick & Bowl".

Now I think it's important to learn as many forms as you can. However, for the life of me, I don't understand a form where, for all intent purposes, you walk around with a bamboo coffee cup covering the toes on your foot.:D

Does anyone out there know about this form?

[The Xia]

I'm sure everyone has seen this picture. http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/SKong.jpg
And here is another. http://www.centralshaolin.com/shaolin_images/SuKong2_close.jpg

However, pictures of someone with a disease doesn't prove that he is the "first grandmaster" of Shaolin. If this were true, he'd be recognized outside of Shaolin Do circles. Which he isn't.
The Su Kong story flies in the face of Kung Fu history. Historically speaking, the Southern Temple was burned before Su Kong is said to have existed. Someone with more knowledge of the Southern Shaolin Temple's timeline can elaborate.

[Golden Tiger]

Here's a question for some of you SDers (Black Belt and above):

We have one coming up called "Chi Kai Po An Sho Chang" or "Drunken Beggar Stick & Bowl".

Now I think it's important to learn as many forms as you can. However, for the life of me, I don't understand a form where, for all intent purposes, you walk around with a bamboo coffee cup covering the toes on your foot.:D

Does anyone out there know about this form?

It's a relatively easy form (1st Black material in the east) that use the stick for quick jabs, swinging strikes, and other hits and uses a cup as weapon (think striking open handed holding the cup bottom to palm.) It does have a few hard moves in it but most of all, its a fun form to learn and do. And for the record, the cup is only on the foot for a very short sequence (at least it used to be).

[Judge Pen]

I'm sure everyone has seen this picture. http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/SKong.jpg
And here is another. http://www.centralshaolin.com/shaolin_images/SuKong2_close.jpg

However, pictures of someone with a disease doesn't prove that he is the "first grandmaster" of Shaolin. If this were true, he'd be recognized outside of Shaolin Do circles. Which he isn't.
The Su Kong story flies in the face of Kung Fu history. Historically speaking, the Southern Temple was burned before Su Kong is said to have existed. Someone with more knowledge of the Southern Shaolin Temple's timeline can elaborate.

The thing is the Southern Shaolin Temple is equally steeped in myth. There is a debate as to its place in marital history and some will say that a Southern shaolin temple didn't even exist. Anyone claiming lineage to a southern shoulin temple is probably on shaky historical footing as far as documented marital history goes.

Now there are plenty of southern styles out there and many of them claim lineage to the 5 elders or the southern temple, but how much of it can be documented? Why do you think that the southern forum is such a hotbed of lienage debate? Ever heard of the "Green-grass" monk? His existence is also debated, yet a very well respected branch of CLF lays claim to a lineage that runs through him.

[The Willow Sword]

Ive already proved that Su kong is not "Su kong". if you, who are interested in my bit of research i shared on this particular thread, go back to page 44 of this thread and read on from there. i posted up two pictures, one of the alleged su kong and the other is the true identity and a pic of the same person(just not as cleaned up as the person is in the suit and tie) Su Kong's name is "Li Baoshu" and was part of the beijing zoo exhibit in china back in the 1930's. there is no mention of him as being connected with any martial arts or the shaolin temple whatsoever.

The other pic i found of Su kong/ Li baoshu was from an article on a website that i just stumbled upon(having nothing to do with the shaolin temple or martial arts). i noticed right off the bat the similarity between that pic and the dressed up pic of what the Sd'ers claim as Su kong. well i began a correspondance with the man who created that article( prof.Frank Dikotter) and emailed him the pic of su kong. He corroberated that it was the same person(being that this man is a professor of geneological studies at the university of london in the UK) who better qualified to make such a comparison than someone of that background? well i was convinced and it doesnt take much smarts to realize that the two pics ARE the same person(hehe unless you are a brainwashed cultist who believes every single thing that is told to you) Now there are many references to that particular disease and there are pics of OTHERS who have the affliction and they all look similar in that they have the disease, but if you use alittle smarts and a little common sense you can obviously see the differences in facial features and such. but with the two pics of li baoshu one all messed up to look more like a lion and the gussied up photo, you see them to be the same person in everyway and like i said before, it was corroborated by a legitamate source and a person with a degree in geneology. so as far as i am concerned the CRUXT of the SD myth IS that picture of the alleged "hairy grandmaster"

SO anyway go back to page 44 of this thread and read from there my posts and what i have shared. yeah its downplayed by just about every loyalist sd memeber here(the denial is staggering) and i also give the exact BOOK of where that older photo of li baoshu was taken(not the dressed up one) the one that prof. Dikotter sourced to put that other pic in his article.

the suit and tie photo is an enigma indeed because the book that it came from is no longer in print and otherwise unavailable. but the Book in question is Supposed to be at the University library in Lexington KY. but i wouldnt imagine that you would find it there anymore. given that the HUB of SD is in lexington.

anyway, this whole thread seems to run in cycles where people bring up the same things but just spin it in a different way. if you have the time go back to the first 60 pages of this thread and you will see what i mean.

(now watch the denial start up again and the poo fly):rolleyes:

TWS

[The Xia]

There is an archeological site that is believed to be the remains of the Southern Shaolin Temple. The thing is, the "grandmaster" story goes against the Five Elders stories. The Five Elders story varies, but is recounted by various lineages and folk tales. The "grandmaster" story is only recognized by Shaolin Do.

[The Xia]

Great research Willow Sword!

[brucereiter]

Historically speaking, the Southern Temple was burned before Su Kong is said to have existed. Someone with more knowledge of the Southern Shaolin Temple's timeline can elaborate.

hi xia,

as i understand it from sources outside of sd, the "southern" shaolin temple was not just one building in one location but was many buildings in the same part of china. all doing there own thing with only loose ties to each other. i really do not know the facts as there are so many versions of the "truth".

i think the time line would depend on the definition of what / where the southern temple is. was it one building? and was this one building destroyed in the mid 1600's?

was it one main building that was destroyed in the mid 1600's and several smaller temples in the surrounding area that continued to practice martial arts of some sort until the early 1900's?

i wish i had a way to verify but i dont. does this take away from my skill/understanding and my enjoyment of the art i practice? no it does not ...

[kungfujunky]

as far as the su kong pics go my personal opinion is that it is just a pic used to convey what he looked like.

there are no pics out there of ie chang ming either so a painting is used. it stands to reason that there are no pics of su kong since he was a monk in a temple where such things were not done.

wether this is true or not i dont know but i will ask gmt when i see him again about it

[BoulderDawg]

Not that it effects the way I feel about the art but I've also wondered why there were no pictures of Le.

The man lived in modern times and was suppose to be one of the best...It looks like someone would have taken his picture.

[The Xia]

as far as the su kong pics go my personal opinion is that it is just a pic used to convey what he looked like.
Come on kungfujunky, thats a pretty weak excuse. When the Li Baoshu picture is posted, they call it Su Kong. They don't say, "This is what Su Kong may have looked like."

Perhaps many years from now, when William Hung is forgotten, someone will take a picture of him, change the name, and attribute a style to him. All of the style's techniques will be accounted for in the deadly "She Bang" Form. :p :D

[The Xia]

What is Sin The's stance on the wild claims? Did he come up with them or is it people in his organization?

And what do you guys make of this quote by him?

"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.'
As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust."

[kungfujunky]

Come on kungfujunky, thats a pretty weak excuse. When the Li Baoshu picture is posted, they call it Su Kong. They don't say, "This is what Su Kong may have looked like."

Perhaps many years from now, when William Hung is forgotten, someone will take a picture of him, change the name, and attribute a style to him. All of the style's techniques will be accounted for in the deadly "She Bang" Form. :p :D

as my quote so plainly stated it is MY OPINION..not an excuse.

i based my opinion on a number of different factors. i didnt post it for you to twist the words i wrote into another flame post by you

as for the quote....i agree with the quote. in tournaments we do not fair well because we dont follow rules. we hit what is left open with speed and efficiency and power.

power most judges cant see and wont acknowledge

[lunghushan]

Regarding Su Kong, I don't worry about it. Part of me would love for a book in China (or anywhere outside of SD's camp) to turn up referencing him as the long-lost Grand-master or whatever, just to see the fur fly around here (pun intended), but my point is whether he was real or not (and you would think that if he were real there would be independant verification somewhere) it doesn't matter in my training. If I'm asked about SD's history by a student, I'm very candid and it starts with "the story goes . . . . " Then I tell them that I think our material migrated and blended and became what it is today.

I think it might have been in a book from kungfulibrary.com, but I can't remember.

I definitely came across a reference to that guy somewhere before hearing about Shaolin-Do, but I can't remember where.

As for the Circus thing, just because the guy was in the circus doesn't mean he didn't do martial arts. For example, a lot of martial arts were passed on by people in the Opera, for example Fook Yeung, who still is around and kicking I think in Seattle, and who Bruce Lee trained with after coming to the U.S. (something that people seem to forget about or just never knew about).

[The Xia]

as my quote so plainly stated it is MY OPINION..not an excuse.

i based my opinion on a number of different factors. i didnt post it for you to twist the words i wrote into another flame post by you
I directly quoted you. I didn't say it was not your opinion. However, your opinion is a defense of the picture's use in response to Willow Sword's research. So it is an excuse.
Here is the definition of excuse from dictionary.com
"–verb (used with object)
1. to regard or judge with forgiveness or indulgence; pardon or forgive; overlook (a fault, error, etc.): Excuse his bad manners.
2. to offer an apology for; seek to remove the blame of: He excused his absence by saying that he was ill.
3. to serve as an apology or justification for; justify: Ignorance of the law excuses no one.
4. to release from an obligation or duty: to be excused from jury duty.
5. to seek or obtain exemption or release for (oneself): to excuse oneself from a meeting.
6. to refrain from exacting; remit; dispense with: to excuse a debt.
7. to allow (someone) to leave: If you'll excuse me, I have to make a telephone call.
–noun
8. an explanation offered as a reason for being excused; a plea offered in extenuation of a fault or for release from an obligation, promise, etc.: His excuse for being late was unacceptable.
9. a ground or reason for excusing or being excused: Ignorance is no excuse.
10. the act of excusing someone or something.
11. a pretext or subterfuge: He uses his poor health as an excuse for evading all responsibility.
12. an inferior or inadequate specimen of something specified: That coward is barely an excuse for a man. Her latest effort is a poor excuse for a novel."
Your defense fits the definition of an excuse.

As for the William Hung thing....well that was just a joke and you have to admit its clever.


as for the quote....i agree with the quote. in tournaments we do not fair well because we dont follow rules. we hit what is left open with speed and efficiency and power.

power most judges cant see and wont acknowledge
There are many traditional martial arts techniques you can't use in sanctioned tournaments. However, this does not mean that traditional martial arts cannot be used in tournaments. If it were true that traditional martial arts cannot be used in tournaments, then you can't spar without being killed or maimed. This is obviousely not the case. Therefore, traditional martial arts can be used for tournaments.

[kungfujunky]

again.....i did not refute what tws posted. i simply stated my opinion...i did not make excuses for what tws had found out.

and why spar in a tournament when the judges wont acknowledge your strikes and many of the openings you are trained to react to arent allowed?

i know people who have went to tournaments to spar and the judges simply did not count their strikes.

again i did not say you cant use it in tournaments...i said i agree with the quote that tournament training is not what we do. we train to fight and protect ourselves. yes we learn deadly moves...many of them in fact...but on the street im sure those moves would not be the first ones used lol

i myself actually practice non lethal moves so as to stop a fight instead of causing physical damage to my opponent. most people will back off when a palm strike to the chest sends them flying.

part of the shaolin way is exactly what gmt says. we learn to destroy so that we may preserve. which i interprut to mean i learn how to defend myself with great efficiency so that when the time comes for a fight i can simply walk away knowing their was no real threat to me or my pride. i dont have to prove myself in tournaments or on the street.






having said all that yes i have gotten into fights on the street. only 2 though since i began my training.

i failed in the respect that i did not walk away but i did take care of the attackers without harming them which i am proud of.

[lunghushan]

We should probably just drop the real vs. not real arguments. How are you supposed to know if they are 'real' or not? What is 'real' anyway? Really Shaolin? Who the heck cares?

Find some old ancient manuals and see if it matches up, that's about the best you could do.

[Radhnoti]

Wow, TWS, I apologize for not commenting on those pics before...that looks like the same guy to me. Same lips, same eyes, similar hair length (long on nose and top, but small beard). I didn't see where you mentioned corresponding with the author of the article before? Did that happen a good while after you posted that? Bejing zoo exhibit? I wonder if that was a traveling exhibit? Lots of second hand info has GM Ie traveling around all over "even up into Korea".

'Course everyone knows I think Tai Djin (Li?) was a circus performer that taught Ie as they roamed around with the show...and, really, who's to say Su Kong Tai Djin/Li didn't know a shaolin form or two...or 900? :D

No, actually, I've always felt that to be overstated as well...I have heard that GM Sin's brother rolls his eyes at the 900+ forms statement. If true, GM Sin is certainly not "on schedule" to have all the material taught to students in his lifetime, how many have been taught out, in total? 300? 400? Less than half in 40ish years? I know he's in good health (and I hope he continues to be) but if he's thinkin' he'll have another 40 years to get it all out...well...GM Ie died at much younger than 100.

[The Xia]

again.....i did not refute what tws posted. i simply stated my opinion...i did not make excuses for what tws had found out.
You made an excuse for the use of that picture. It isn't an insult to say you made an excuse.


And I wasn't talking about point sparring. I was talking about full contact sparring. They have full contact tournaments. San Shou has proven to be great venue for Gung Fu stylists to compete. Traditional martial arts were developed for life and death situations, but this doesn't mean they can't be used in sanctioned tournaments. You just can't do certain things, thats all.

[lunghushan]

You made an excuse for the use of that picture. It isn't an insult to say you made an excuse.


And I wasn't talking about point sparring. I was talking about full contact sparring. They have full contact tournaments. San Shou has proven to be great venue for Gung Fu stylists to compete. Traditional martial arts were developed for life and death situations, but this doesn't mean they can't be used in sanctioned tournaments. You just can't do certain things, thats all.

San Shou sucks. All you can do is "punch, kick and throw." Might as well just do kickboxing.

[brucereiter]

What is Sin The's stance on the wild claims? Did he come up with them or is it people in his organization?

And what do you guys make of this quote by him?


hi xia,

i wonder the same thing about grandmaster the' if he cares about some of the "wild" claims.

i think many misunderstandings have come from things said in james halladay's book. i do not think they were Malicious though just misunderstandings that for reasons unknown to me were never corrected.

i have heard some stories from gmt first hand and they seem to be the truth and then i have read about the same story somewhere else and i am like that is not what he said or meant ...

i think this quote is good and represents part of what shaolin do is. maybe a little dramitic but valid.

sd is not a sport, bagua for example one of the main internal arts in shaolin do most of the moves in this style are not appropriate for a tournament as they would cause bodily harm that is not to say you cant beat someone with out hurting them but ...

xia what do you think about that quote? as someone not in the system how does it sound?

[The Xia]

xia what do you think about that quote? as someone not in the system how does it sound?
Saying that it is too lethal for tournament use sounds doesn't sound good at all. The thing is, traditional martial arts can be used for tournaments. Neck breaks, eye gouging, small joint manipulation, groin strikes, and tons of other stuff are out. However, you can still use alot of other things. A single technique can be used in many different ways. For example, you go full force with an armbar and the opponant will be in serious trouble. However, in a tournament you don't do that (just as you wouldn't do that in practice).

[lunghushan]

Okay, I didn't really look at this before. 900 forms ...

"The Fukien Shaolin monks took it upon themselves to protect the Fukienese coast from the raids of Japanese pirates. They were tremendously effective, earning the love and respect of the common people. When word reached the Ch'ing Kwang Hsu Emperor in Peking, at the beginning of the 20th century, trouble brewed. Kwang Hsu saw the Fukien monks as potential rebels with widespread popular support. He secretly dispatched imperial troops, armed with cannons on a mission to destroy the Fukien Temple. He even sent a renegade Shaolin Master, Chi Tao Su, the White Eyebrow Monk, to strengthen the attacking force."

Yeah ... right ... Bak Mei lives in the 20th century ... LMAO Why would you send a monk to strengthen a force that had guns and cannons? ???? ?????? ???????????

Whatever ... who knows ... if it works for you, great, but don't expect anybody else to believe these stories.

[lunghushan]

The part about most of it being too lethal for tournament use sounds doesn't sound good at all. The thing is, traditional martial arts can be used for tournaments. Neck breaks, eye gouging, small joint manipulation, groin strikes, and tons of other stuff are out. However, you can still use alot of other things. A single technique can be used in many different ways. For example, you go full force with an armbar and the opponant will be in serious trouble. However, in a tournament you don't do that (just as you wouldn't do that in practice).

Tournaments these days are kindof crap if you can't do grappling.

[brucereiter]

Saying that it is too lethal for tournament use sounds doesn't sound good at all. The thing is, traditional martial arts can be used for tournaments. Neck breaks, eye gouging, small joint manipulation, groin strikes, and tons of other stuff are out. However, you can still use alot of other things. A single technique can be used in many different ways. For example, you go full force with an armbar and the opponant will be in serious trouble. However, in a tournament you don't do that (just as you wouldn't do that in practice).

i agree it sounds dramitic ... also your comments are valid ... i guess it all depends on how you interperate his words ...

i train in the internal arts ... one thing i really focus on is the ability to control a person with out hurting them. at the same time i understand how to cause great damage.
i dont like the often excuse that i lost because i could not use eye gouges or what ever it is a cop out ...

[The Willow Sword]

Wow, TWS, I apologize for not commenting on those pics before...that looks like the same guy to me. Same lips, same eyes, similar hair length (long on nose and top, but small beard). I didn't see where you mentioned corresponding with the author of the article before? Did that happen a good while after you posted that?


I had corresponded with prof Dikotter way before i posted all of that on this thread. Actually i wasnt going to post it at all because i felt that i had proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the lineage was fabricated and that i had done the right thing in leaving the school, for that reason and the other that is posted in this forum.
but after reading 40 some odd pages in to this very long thread, at the time, i decided to go on ahead and share with everyone what i had discovered.

When i corresponded with Prof Dikotter i had asked him to compare the two pictures because there was some question as to whether or not they were the same individual. i had stated to him that the suit and tie picture was being claimed in a martial arts lineage that has come in to question many times within the martial community(and left it at that). I mean i already KNEW that these two pics were the same i just needed some professional validation, since members here want that sort of validation from the rest of us concerning what IS CMA and what IS Shaolin etc etc.
But as you see in the posts after the denial and the downplaying of what i found flowed forth.
The second time i had emailed prof Dikotter i asked him that if the book that he got that other pic mentioned ANYTHING about Li baoshu being involved with any martial arts or shaolin temple or anything relating to south china. His response was that there was no mention of any such affiliation and that li baoshu was put on exhibit at the beijing zoo,no mention of being abandoned by his mother for being a demon and so on and so forth. I think he also mentioned that Li baoshu died at an early age as a result of the disease.

TWS.

[Judge Pen]

You made an excuse for the use of that picture. It isn't an insult to say you made an excuse.


And I wasn't talking about point sparring. I was talking about full contact sparring. They have full contact tournaments. San Shou has proven to be great venue for Gung Fu stylists to compete. Traditional martial arts were developed for life and death situations, but this doesn't mean they can't be used in sanctioned tournaments. You just can't do certain things, thats all.


The quote. That quote has been around for a while. At the time it was first made, most MA tournaments were point sparring and many didn't allow groin shots or sweeps to the support leg. Now you do have more options for tournaments if you're willing to travel.

But, let's call a spade a spade, all of kung fu claims "too deadly for the ringh" techniques. Certainly there are things that you wouldn't do in the ring, but what this quote is promotion. Don't point the finger at SD because I'll tell you a secret--we're not the only ones that self-promote.

[lunghushan]

You'd be hard pressed to find a martial arts school or teacher who didn't self promote.

[Judge Pen]

TWS, My settings are off to find what you refer to as page 44. How many posts per page are you set for so I can get to the same 44 and re-examine those pictures.

I'd be curious for you to copy the original e-mail from this professor. I'd like to read this for myself.

[Judge Pen]

You'd be hard pressed to find a martial arts school or teacher who didn't self promote.

Exactly. As for the wild stories, take everything with a grain of salt. And, if you study the Indonesian culture and kun tao in particular, wild stories are par for the course.

[lunghushan]

I think a better question for SDers, is they actually believe the seeming nonsense that is posted as the history of their style, and the 900 forms and all that.

That's a better question that is that information actually nonsense.

Anyways, what does it matter. If Master Sin The got all his forms out of old Chinese books, and is teaching them, what does it really matter?

But that history sure doesn't add to the credibility of the school, so it would be interesting to find out if it does add to the credibility for the people who practice there.

[lunghushan]

Exactly. As for the wild stories, take everything with a grain of salt. And, if you study the Indonesian culture and kun tao in particular, wild stories are par for the course.

Kun Tao is an absolute mess of politics and conflicting stories and opinions. I'd be surprised if anybody could put together anything cohesive. I've been looking at that stuff for a long time now and I sure can't make heads or tails of it. De Thoaurs, Reeders, Willie Wetzel, what a mess.

[The Xia]

Here you go Judge Pen.


I knew what SD was and I had not really been so gung ho about being a follower of the rhetoric and the claims and statements made by the organization. I knew that it wasn’t traditional CMA and I knew that certain aspects of the history were questionable. But what I did like and admire about Sd was the atmosphere there and the curriculum itself,,it actually was very conducive to the everyday average joe and jane who wanted to take a martial art,,learn self defense and not have to deal with a drill instructor environment or be in these reality fighting schools that most folks would not go to anyway. So the sell point at SD was done well and the atmosphere there was decent. What finally clinched it for me as to the history of SD and its claims was the research I finally did when I left the school.
This information focused on the “hairy grandmanster,,which they name (Su Kong) My research turned up another Picture of “Su kong” whose name is actually ”li Baoshu” who was part of the bejing circus in the 1930’s and the picture that everyone sees of Li baoshu in the suit and tie was taken and put in an old guiness book of world records featuring “circus freak shows”(in this book it is a full body shot)the picture that is shown to everyone now and that has been for years is just a head shot(edited of course). This book was found at a public library in louisville kentucky and shown to my previous teacher back in the early 80’s(it was an old book from the late 60’s and for some reason is no longer at the library in Louisville Kentucky). It has been debated here and the Sd’ers will dismiss it as just a similarity and not another picture of their “great grandmaster”. But in fact the persons in the two pictures I have are the same person( now there are some other pictures of people with the same disorder that Li baoshu had that look similar only with respect to the disorder,,but are obviously different people,,it is NOT the case with the pics that I have.) I wish I could find that book and then the evidence would be concrete and could not be downplayed or argued as something other than what it is(ironic eh?)

Anyway we have beat the dead horse in to something else now,,the gelatin mass that once was a dead horse is now pureed in to something else other than a dead horse,,yet we continue to beat it as if it were top news. Hahaha and the rest of us roll our eyes and think “ oh boy here we go again”.

Peace,,TWS

On the Sin The quote....
So you say that quote concerned point sparring? If so, keeping it in circulation doesn't do well for Shaolin Do's image.
Are you saying a Shaolin Doka would not be able to point spar? (not that I put value in point sparring)

[The Willow Sword]

Page 44 is where i come in on the thread and post the pics.
Page 72 is where KC comes in and starts his trolling and flame war with me.
Page 78 is where i reveal the name of the book where the messy pic of li baoshu came out of.

As for copies of the email correspondance with Frank Dikotter. My computer crashed recently and all those correspondances which i had saved were destroyed in the crash( i also lost so much more valuable information and files and music. its sucks and i just KNOW that this will be spun as a "very convienient" excuse to not provide said proof of correspondance. but if you are so bent on corroborating what was corroborated to ME by him then seek him out for yourself and email him and remind him of the pictures and his article and get the info for yourself.

i had been operating on win2k pro for the longest time and the OS finally crashed on me(when i was trying to download an adobe acrobat document) i lost everything on my C: drive and most of everything else on my D: drive. i had to restart from scratch and upgrade win xp pro. bought a 300 bg external HD to Back everything up now(wished i had it back then)

Anyway there it is, TWS

[BentMonk]

Perhaps many years from now, when William Hung is forgotten, someone will take a picture of him, change the name, and attribute a style to him. All of the style's techniques will be accounted for in the deadly "She Bang" Form. :p :D

Dude you have issues! :eek: :D

[Flying-Monkey]

As for copies of the email correspondance with Frank Dikotter. My computer crashed recently and all those correspondances which i had saved were destroyed in the crash( i also lost so much more valuable information and files and music. its sucks and i just KNOW that this will be spun as a "very convienient" excuse to not provide said proof of correspondance. but if you are so bent on corroborating what was corroborated to ME by him then seek him out for yourself and email him and remind him of the pictures and his article and get the info for yourself.



I am kind of on your side but that seems a little cheesy.

[Yao Sing]

It would be interesting to run those 2 pics through face recognition software.

Hey, maybe we can get a mythbusters type show or other investigative journalist to look into the situation. Bring in the high tech imaging and forensics equipment.

[lunghushan]

Did anybody else buy some of those kungfulibrary.com books? Do you remember seeing the guy in there?

That guy was in SOME book somewhere ... not just Shaolin-Do.

[lunghushan]

You know, a little known fact in this country is that in Taiwan, Singapore, China, etc., they have books written by various martial arts teachers with forms in them. They've been doing it for like 100 years now, not just the VCDs more recently released en masse.

It wouldn't be that hard for some guy to come from Taiwan with a stack of these or go back there and pick up a bunch and start their own lineage.

How can some guy remember 900 forms? No way, right? But a suitcase of books like that and you could start your own school, 900 forms, no problem.

[kungfujunky]

lunghushan that could be possible...but gmt can show you moves in a form at the drop of a hat...

any form you ask him about he can show you the move you want to see.

maybe he learned it from a book but he sure shows it like he spent years training over this material..not hours reading it from a book

[The Willow Sword]

TWS it is well known that you do not "like"SD so why should we believe anything that you say and so what,

well you dont have to take my word for it, the evidence is there. plus the countless other references to history and lineage and masters and such that have been run through here countless times to prove to you and others that what SD claims is Horsesh!t.


GMT has only told what he was told I am for knowing the truth as well but this is getting old

so you are kinda making your Grandmaster out to be someone who was duped as well? this is a new spin on the denial.


You are basing your assumptions on one thing an old pic that might or might not be of the same person I feel we collectively do not know.

i am actually basing things on evidence discovered and shared in this forum(from many people here). this "might be or might not be" is typical of the denial and downplaying that you and many others seem to be living in. you just cant open your eyes because they are clouded just as i was when i was a faithful follower.


No one can prove or disprove where SD came from so the point is mute.
Well then if no-one can prove or disprove where sd came from then what you are saying is that the history IS in FACT fabricated. since you so eloquently state that NO_ONE can prove or disprove where SD came from, then it would be safe to assume that a history could be made up? see i call that "misrepresentation" and from where i stand and many others on this forum and in the martial community, that shows a lack of honor integrity and basically makes you guys out to be shams.



BTW there are alot of people who look alike in pics.

this is true, but NOT in the case of the two pics i have posted, they are the same person. its been corroborated, everyone agrees with exception of the Sd'ers. I call this denial.


Even if GMT said the story was a hoax , which I feel it was told to him, it doesnt change what is.

sure it does KC, it means that what you are learning is in fact not what you say it is, oh sure you and others can say that you train in an awesome martial art but it doesnt take away from the misrepresentation of the art itself. and who really wants to be a part of that? i surely dont, and others have done the same thing and are better off for it. i know it would be hard for someone who has been in the system for many many years to just up and leave and quit, its difficult to do and takes alot of courage and integrity to do so, rather than just not care and continue on with it and be isloated from the rest of the martial community who feel that you guys are misrepresenting yourselves and it is blatently obvious that you are.



GM The is an awsome MA and great teacher and I will value all that I have learned and will learn in the future.

well good for you then KC, then all this shouldnt really matter to you now should it? but you still keep coming back to this thread and forum to defend and be a spin doctor and make the reality YOUR reality. you feel the ground getting a bit shakey underneath your feet KC?;) :p



So TWS if what you say is true tell me what does it PROVE about the art of SD itself only that GM The was told a story, much like you about the pic , and is telling it to others as fact so what. Puts you in the same boat I would say.


no i think the boat is much different KC, in fact i am sailing in a different sea than you on this matter, the sea of reality not imagination.


You know Guys i like this new Spin on things. no longer is the accountability on the one who allegedly made up the lineage to begin with, the responsability is NOW being put on the the man in the painting called IE chang ming. Poor poor ill informed sin the' who doent know any better and is the victim now as we ALL are of this fabrication:rolleyes:

TWS

[The Willow Sword]

oh and ONE MORE THING KC? you post prof. Dikotters email and you ask me to do something that i have already done?ROFLMAO! why dont you ask him yourself? send the pics and explain BRIEFLY the situation as i did(without boring him with the rest of this thread) and get the same info that i got.

TWS

[BM2]

I'm posting on borrowed time. I'm running 98se:eek:

[Judge Pen]

Here you go Judge Pen.



On the Sin The quote....
So you say that quote concerned point sparring? If so, keeping it in circulation doesn't do well for Shaolin Do's image.
Are you saying a Shaolin Doka would not be able to point spar? (not that I put value in point sparring)


We don't do well in tournaments where the winner is usually the guy that hops on one leg throwing multiple kicks without fear of getting his groin kicked or the back leg knocked out from under him, but who does well at those tournaments but TKD people? Yes, SD point-spars from time to time. We allow more contact areas then most. Again, that quote is accurate in the general sense that all kung fu is designed for combat not tournament skill, but promotion in that any art has skills that are transferable to a structered environment.

[Judge Pen]

Page 44 is where i come in on the thread and post the pics.
Page 72 is where KC comes in and starts his trolling and flame war with me.
Page 78 is where i reveal the name of the book where the messy pic of li baoshu came out of.

As for copies of the email correspondance with Frank Dikotter. My computer crashed recently and all those correspondances which i had saved were destroyed in the crash( i also lost so much more valuable information and files and music. its sucks and i just KNOW that this will be spun as a "very convienient" excuse to not provide said proof of correspondance. but if you are so bent on corroborating what was corroborated to ME by him then seek him out for yourself and email him and remind him of the pictures and his article and get the info for yourself.

i had been operating on win2k pro for the longest time and the OS finally crashed on me(when i was trying to download an adobe acrobat document) i lost everything on my C: drive and most of everything else on my D: drive. i had to restart from scratch and upgrade win xp pro. bought a 300 bg external HD to Back everything up now(wished i had it back then)

Anyway there it is, TWS

TWS, I'm trying to be fair to you. The Su Kong story is one that I don't get bent out of shape over, but forgive me for being skeptical of your unverified account. If I remember, you stated in that post that you "have" the two pics, but in actuallity you do not. I would have loved to have seen the e-mail. Can't you re-email this expert and get quick verification and share it since you want to claim that you have "proven" this point "beyond a reasonable doubt"? I beleive that you have posted a different pick of li baoshi and su kong and it was open to debate here as to if they were the same people (wiht even the majority of SD detractors opining that they were not). If that's the pics that you "have" and shared with your expert then that's certainly something..... but right now all I have is hearsay from a biased perspective (I understand that I'm biased too, but I've never tried to prove that Su Kong was real)

If that's what the expert said, then I'd like to see an actual expert's opinion and know what actual data he used to reach that opinion. But, then again, an expert opinion is just an ordinary guess dressed up in an evening dress.

So, to be fair to you TWS, if your going to claim that you "proved" something, please provide the data behind it. If you can't, then we are all still speculating based upon our individual beliefs.

Notice I didn't question the veracity of anything you said about the computer crashing. I understand that can happen. In fact why don't you share the doctor's e-mail with me and I'll ask him (respectuflly) the same questions and post his e-mail response here. Sound reasonable?

[Judge Pen]

Here you go TWS fd3@soas.ac.uk <fd3@soas.ac.uk> here is his e-mail address correspond with him and get the proof you seek and show us KC

Didn't see this post. Thanks. I'll e-mail him too.

[Judge Pen]

The website where TWS got that picture was from opendemocracy.com. That's the only website I can find that references Li Baoshu. I'm not saying that he did or did not exist (anymore than I can say Su Kong did or did not exist). I'm just saying that you can find more non-SD internet references to Su Kong than to Li Baoshu.

And, as we all know, if it's on the internet it must be true.

Re-stating the record

[Judge Pen]

Those aren't the same guy.

MK is one of the most researched and outspoken SD detractors. This was his opinon.

[Judge Pen]

Ok, other than MK, I didn't find anyone else rendering an opinon on the phots. Hardly the overwhelming agreeing opinion that you discuss.

But I do have a question for you TWS:

Did you ever see the book with the full photo of Su Kong in it that you claim existed in the 1960s? Have you actually seen this photo or are you just saying it existed because you were told so?

[Radhnoti]

I think the pictures look like the same guy, and I think it doesn't matter. It would make sense for a shaolin monk on the run to change his name and not mention at his new job that he was a leader of a banned martial order.

Not that I believe that...I'm still holding on to my circus theory, but the only verifable thing TWS MIGHT have found (did, in my opinion) is another picture of the guy SD calls it's first GM.

[Judge Pen]

Here are SEVERAL picks of Li Baushu (including the one that TWS posted) and NONE of them are the pic of Su Kong that SD offers. They are in more detail so I'll let people decide for themselves whether or not they think Li Baoshu and Su Kong are the same.

http://www.quasi-modo.net/Li_Po_Sui.html

[Yao Sing]

I recall the two pictures that were posted quite some time ago and they did not look like the same person to me. I believe that was the consensus of the majority back then.

However the picture of Li Baoshu was not the one that TWS had originally referenced (one that was in a book at the library).

I say we find someone with access to facial recognition software to do a comparison of the available pictures.

Also, I remember someone commenting on the similarity between the words Su Kong and Si Gung suggesting Su Kong is his title and not his actual name.

I could believe a Shaolin Monk fleeing the Temple, changing his name and hiding with a circus but that's only for the average person. Someone with a unique physical condition would be hard pressed to convince anyone he was a different person with the same affliction.

The only way I believe he would succeed is if he wasn't very prominent at the Temple and not widely known. Sound more likely for someone with his look back in those days.

[Judge Pen]

Dr. Dikötter,

Hello. My name is [Judge Pen]. I'm doing a bit of research and needed to ask you a question. I appreciate in advance you time and consideration.

In your book "Imperfect Conceptions" you speak of an individual Li Baoshu being put on display in the Beijing Zoo. I know that you have seen this picture before:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2549&d=1109867470

This individual is often represented as having a martial arts background and as part of a kung fu lineage. Can you tell me if the photograph that I sent you is, in your opinion, Li Baoshu. If so, have you seen this very photograph in independent sources (and where)? Do you have any record of Li Baoshu having any type of martial background?

Again, I appreciate in advance your time and cooperation in my research.

Cordially yours,

[Judge Pen]

[Radhnoti]

On that page you posted JP, the bottom two pics, it looks like he's wearing a gi. :D

You planned that didn't you? Misdirect with the whole Su question/answer, while simultaneously introducing the concept that this verifiable Chinese man was wearing a gi top. You've chosen your profession well, my friend. :)

[Judge Pen]

On that page you posted JP, the bottom two pics, it looks like he's wearing a gi. :D

You planned that didn't you? Misdirect with the whole Su question/answer, while simultaneously introducing the concept that this verifiable Chinese man was wearing a gi top. You've chosen your profession well, my friend. :)

Nothing but dumb luck. You give me too much credit.

[MasterKiller]

I change my vote based on JP's new pictures.

That's him.

[BlueTravesty]

Here are SEVERAL picks of Li Baushu (including the one that TWS posted) and NONE of them are the pic of Su Kong that SD offers. They are in more detail so I'll let people decide for themselves whether or not they think Li Baoshu and Su Kong are the same.

http://www.quasi-modo.net/Li_Po_Sui.html

I was about the say that those are certainly not the same guy as in the infamous "Tai Jin" photo, but that one at the bottom right seems very similar... the hair is not parted as neatly, but the eyebrows are very similar. In any case, I can't wait for Dr. Dikotter's response to your question, as I only just recapped on the section of the forum that TWS referenced.

I also have to say that the "Tai Jin" picture has him showing a very warm, sincere smile. Whoever he was, the guy probably had it pretty bad for a while, so I dunno why, but I find that very moving.

[BM2]

This is similar to matching someone's skull that has shoulder length hair to someone else with long hair however I agree with MK. I'm not certain but it does seem to be him from that top right and bottom right pic.
And something that needs to be corrected. I had thought GMT said he was never a monk, am quite certain of that. In an article dating from the mid '80s IKF mag, James Halliday wrote that there were 320+ Shaolin based forms. M. Hiang states on his site of several instructors that also were there in Bandung.

[The Xia]

Does anyone know of any videos of Sin The doing forms or sparring?

[The Xia]

We don't do well in tournaments where the winner is usually the guy that hops on one leg throwing multiple kicks without fear of getting his groin kicked or the back leg knocked out from under him, but who does well at those tournaments but TKD people? Yes, SD point-spars from time to time. We allow more contact areas then most. Again, that quote is accurate in the general sense that all kung fu is designed for combat not tournament skill, but promotion in that any art has skills that are transferable to a structered environment.
Point sparring is a game. It doesn't mean anything when it comes to combat ability. I know that. I was just curious to see what you would answer.
See, the problem with that quote is that there is full contact tournaments around. Even though he may have been refferring to point sparring, it doesn't specify that. Traditional martial arts are designed for out-of-ring righting. This doesn't mean they can't be used in the ring. The quote comes off as the "too deadly" excuse.

[Judge Pen]

Point sparring is a game. It doesn't mean anything when it comes to combat ability. I know that. I was just curious to see what you would answer.
See, the problem with that quote is that there is full contact tournaments around. Even though he may have been refferring to point sparring, it doesn't specify that. Traditional martial arts are designed for out-of-ring righting. This doesn't mean they can't be used in the ring. The quote comes off as the "too deadly" excuse.

I agree, its a game with limited transferrable fighting skills. But my point was when the quote was first made, there were very few, if any, venues for full-contact fighting like there are today. It's promotion not unlike any commercial MA school out there.

[kungfujunky]

on this page here:

http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/history2.html

there are some subtle differences to what shaolin do says...they seem to make the story more concrete as to how so many forms matriculated into the system

also a new pic of su kong...and the page also states that su kong tai jin was a name he came to be called...so maybe he is the zoo man?

[SDJerry]

Point sparring is a game. It doesn't mean anything when it comes to combat ability. I know that. I was just curious to see what you would answer.
See, the problem with that quote is that there is full contact tournaments around. Even though he may have been refferring to point sparring, it doesn't specify that. Traditional martial arts are designed for out-of-ring righting. This doesn't mean they can't be used in the ring. The quote comes off as the "too deadly" excuse.

I study SD and my school does not point spar. Point sparring is when you stop the moment contact is made. We do not do that at all... punches are pulled to the face but the body is fair game. We go until the other basically stops defending himself.

The benefit of this is that you focus more on your technique verses just getting that one shot in. I've thrown out a lot of techniques because they land but leave me in a horrible position afterwards therefore resulting in getting my a$$ handed to me.

I don't see why everyone gets so hung up on lineage of SD. If they told me today that all along I had really been studying Kempo I wouldn't care. It's not about the name to me. It either works or it doesn't and I've come a long way since I started.

[kwaichang]

here you go look at this are these 2 the same person ? I tried to upload a pic hope it comes out KC:)

[kungfujunky]

if you look at the shape of the mouth you can see the similarities

i think it is the same person..

i think su kong became the zoo man

[Judge Pen]

here you go look at this are these 2 the same person ? I tried to upload a pic hope it comes out KC:)

Yep, these two are the same--one is from the SDA site and the other is from Hiang The's site.

BTW, I just ordered Dr. Dikötter's book. I'm hoping there will be more photos in it for comparison.

[ninthdrunk]

I've come to realize that there are two types of people who train martial arts. Those who really care about lineage, and those who do not. Personally, I think that if you are the second type, you should just leave this argument alone. It doesn't help anything to say, "well, even if the lineage is made up, it doesn't change the quality of training." That's not a good answer when people are asking for factual, historical answers that can be verified to support SD claims. I used to say that, too, but I now understand it's the wrong way to go about it.

It's comparable to someone asking about another art's ground techniques and saying, "we just strike, because we don't need to go to the ground." This always seems to me to be the ego's answer. What you're really doing is blowing a smoke screen. If an aspect of martial arts doesn't matter to you, don't bother jumping in the conversations about it, right? By all means, ask questions, but I don't see what good it does to beg the question with unrelated answers meant to divert attention to a well-recognized, positive aspect of SD. If you don't know, just say you don't know.

I hope this doesn't come across as antagonistic towards anyone, I just feel that we're not getting anywhere because the people who want answers aren't looking for they ones their being given. And I wouldn't blame them, because most of what they seem to get is smoke. That's not to say the answers aren't out there...I'm just saying that this forum seems to have found its limit on the available answers.

(But, I also feel that 90% of everyone on here is looking to prove a point rather than find an answer...so I feel there's little point to the lineage discussion.)

[Judge Pen]

NinthDrunk,

I hear (er, well, read) what you're saying. Personally, I like the debate. And I've really learned a great deal about SD and other styles here. Frankly, I always didn't know what I thought or believed and this forum is an anvil for me to hammer out these thoughts.

[Yao Sing]

Here we go, how about this one?

[The Xia]

No one has any clips of Sin The doing forms or sparring?

[Judge Pen]

No one has any clips of Sin The doing forms or sparring?

There have been a couple of forms floating about here. I think they are posted in the "Shaolin-Do Video" thread.

[The Willow Sword]

Great that you found these other pics.
i hope that you get a response from Prof Dikotter.

wow these pics are pretty obvious to me, and in a few of them you see li baoshu wearing a suit and tie:eek:

so we await the response. TWS

[ninthdrunk]

JP -

Oh, I feel the same way. I'm on this thread at least five times a day! It's kinda sad really...hehehe. Anyway, I come to see what questions are being asked and to see what other in the MA community feel about our system. I appreciate just about every bit of info that I get from this thread.

But, when I don't have an answer to people's questions, I try to just not give an answer, rather than telling them my opinion on SD in general. When someone asks a lineage question, it seems that rather than admit most of us don't know, there are tons of SDers who jump up and say, "well, it works, so who cares about lineage?" If I were the person asking about lineage, that would just **** me off.

But, I agree with you that, despite the side-tracking, derailing and bickering, there's a couple of good posts in this thread worth reading!



Speaking of Derailing:


any SDers out there specializing in a particular aspect of the art? What are you working on, and how are you taking steps toward specialization?

[brucereiter]

Does anyone know of any videos of Sin The doing forms or sparring?

http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/

it is more of a demo but ...

[Radhnoti]

JP - "Frankly, I always didn't know what I thought or believed and this forum is an anvil for me to hammer out these thoughts."

I'm with you there...I just posted a meandering piece about economics earlier that I'd barely thought about in 15 years. I use forums in the same way, to "sharpen the sword" so to speak...plus you pick up a few good ideas here and there. :)

[The Willow Sword]

my God KC are you even reading what you are writing here?

This denial is staggering. its like you are grasping at straws, i mean listen to yourself.


Even the 2 pics I posted togethor dont appear to be the same person for the above reasons.
so you are now saying that the pic on the hiang the site is not the same person as the suit and tie pic of apparently the same grandmaster su??????? that would make the case for the fabrication of lineage right there,according to what you just wrote


Another theory perhaps the pic SD has is the one of Li Baoshu because the pic is the one given to GM The by GGM Ie and it has been used so long because it was the only one GM The had. And even if it is Li Baoshu it does not disprove anything except the pic is of a person who is not the person we thought it was.

So according to you even if it is really li baoshu, the birth and death dates of su kong/li baoshu are still solid? it says the article photographs were taken in 1921 and his age clearly states he was 34. now according to what you have written here that if the suit and tie su kong is in fact li baoshu then the birth and death date of su kong is also fabricated. (1849-1928) for su kongs birth and death, right?

KC you need to check your head brother. sit back and breathe deep and gather yourself before you start to make another one of these "theory" posts.

Does anyone else recongize what i am seeing here?
TWS

[Radhnoti]

I wasn't even thinking about the fact that we've got dates on Li. It says he was in New York in 1939 (presumably the pics captioned "Look Out New York!" would be from that year). Su Kong Tai Djin was supposed to have died in 1928, so that's 11 years beyond shaolin-do's first GM's supposed date of death and he doesn't look to be in terribly poor health.
A professional opinion that they are the same person would be pretty d@mning and I'd even go so far as to say that the picture hanging in probably every shaolin-do school is not correct. It would be logical to assume that someone lied. Either GM Ie to GM Sin or GM Sin to students (possibly just about dates...a charge that's been leveled before by his brother about the date of death of GM Ie).
Not meaning to put the cart before the horse here...the fellow JP has written might have revised his opinion...especially if JP includes the photo with the bear from GM Hiang's website so he has more to work with?
Looking forward to hearing the outcome...

[BlueTravesty]

Here is the web site if this works you can click on it and you will see 3 pics the site is a genetic research site for hypertrichosis the Bibliography lists the sources . They say the person in the pic is as we of SD have said it is Soo Kong not Li Baoshu. This is an independent non martial art site . Unbiased with no dog in this fight.
evolution.massey.ac.nz/lecture4/docs/hypertri.htm http://evolution.massey.ac.nz/lecture4/docs/hypertri.htm OK you can click on it take a look.

Sorry TWS this will counter your supposed claim of the pic being Li Baoshu or he would be listed as him KC:)

That COULD counter the claim, but this does not do so conclusively. The guy who did the site could have simply looked for pictures of hypertrichosis. Now, HOW many times does the Su Kong picture appear on the net? Also, where have you ever seen Tai Jin referred to as a "Buddhist Master." I'm guessing that neither the picture, nor the "Buddhist Master" description came from any of those books the guy listed. Of course, a researcher who isn't familiar with Martial Arts or Shaolin, will just wade through all the MA-related stuff and see "Ah, it was a Buddhist temple." and play it safe by calling the guy a "Buddhist Master"

I'm not saying whether or not SKTJ and Li Baoshu are the same guy, since they kinda look like they could go either way. I mean, Li Baoshu looks like Tai Jin, but only in certain pics. Then again, I don't always look exactly in every picture either. Imagine how a full coat of fur would complicate matters? It's not cut and dry.

Even if the pic IS fake, it doesn't mean that SD is a sham, it just means that SD has no more claim to "TEH TROO SHAOLIN STYLEZZZ" than ANY other CMA or CMA-based martial arts system (Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Shorin Ryu Karate, Shorinji Kempo, etc.) Of course, that's the case even if the pic is REAL, so the point is moot... :)

[The Willow Sword]

KC i too came across this website and that pic when i did my initial research back in 2002. If you will note that pic of su kong is the same format pic that all the SD sites use. so i would contend that the author of that site just copied and pasted that pic onto his article of the disease he was researching and called him "the buddhist master" as a general reference.

now lets explore your "proof" that discounts my "proof". lets say that the good dr whomever who did his research on the hypertrichosis disease attained this picture from another source, well then WHERE DID HE GET IT FROM? why dont you email this Dr and ask where he got it from? i will just bet a buffalo nickel that he will say he got it from a martial arts website;)

Sorry KC but you are still grabbing at straws here and the ground is still trembling below you. but good try though (east indian accent "THANKYOUUUU COME AGAIN".

:p TWS

[The Xia]

Even if the pic IS fake, it doesn't mean that SD is a sham, it just means that SD has no more claim to "TEH TROO SHAOLIN STYLEZZZ" than ANY other CMA or CMA-based martial arts system (Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Shorin Ryu Karate, Shorinji Kempo, etc.) Of course, that's the case even if the pic is REAL, so the point is moot... :)
Thats not really true BlueTravesty. The Five Elders story about the Southern Shaolin Temple is present in many lineages and folk tales. The Su Kong Southern Shaolin Temple story is only present in Shaolin Do. In fact, the Su Kong story contradicts the Five Elders story.

[lunghushan]

Look, I'm totally sick of this crap.

Who the heck cares? Hairy ape dude ... just give it up already. In fact it's more revolting TWS has spent hours researching than Shaolin-Do spends hours practicing. At least they're practcing martial arts.

Who cares where it comes from? It's irrelevant. They have an entire forum to debunk B.S. And it's not this forum.

If you think people are being duped, don't go to it. Obviously they're getting something out of it or they wouldn't be going and they're mostly redneck southerners or midwesterners anyway, so who the heck cares?

All you people seem to do, Chinese and Indonesian / Kun Tao is debate lineage endlessly.

What about the martial arts, do you ever even TALK about those? NO ... it's just lineage, history ... utter CRAPOLA.

Can you beat down the other person? Does anything else matter?

[The Willow Sword]

calm down lunghushan clam down, breathe and relax, breathe and relax. have some chamomile tea, jerk off wipe up and just relaaaaaxxxx. :D LOL.

oh and BTW. my research didnt take hours. i practice martial arts lunghushan i swear i do. i really really do:rolleyes:

LOL the surreal has made a turn for the funny. TWS

[The Xia]

Lineage is important neilhytholt (lungushan). A practitioner of any art should know what he practicing.

[lunghushan]

You know, the thing that sickens me most about CMA is pretty simple.

It's that you spend more time massaging your egos than you do analyzing the actual martial arts.

I have yet to see one Shaolin-Do form. Not one. Therefore how can I possibly pass judgement on their martial arts?

I cannot. There's no way ... do you judge a book without reading the words? Do you judge a book by its cover, by the hype surrounding it, by the marketing material?

All the crap about lineage, history, 900 forms, that's just marketing material. That has nothing to do with the martial art. Nothing to do with the skills of the teacher or practitioners.

It helps somewhat that there are NO Shaolin-Do schools anywhere near me. For all I know they could be the best martial arts in the world or they could be as bad as USSD.

Anyway, that's the rant for the evening.

If you think that I'm picking on USSD I'm not. All CMA seems to be the same in this respect. EGO over SUBSTANCE. And it's just stupid as hell.

Goodnight all.

[lunghushan]

Lineage is important neilhytholt (lungushan). A practitioner of any art should know what he practicing.

Lineage is NOT important. I've been beaten by bar-room brawlers. I've met thugs off the street that are probably better than ALL of you.

If you can't analyze the forms, if you can't judge the martial arts by the skills of the practitioners then you are no better than zombies.

Yang Jun and the Yang family lineage teaches in my town. Of the entire United States, of the entire WORLD they decided to teach in my town. The entire headquarters of Yang Family Tai Ji is in my town.

They have pedigree up the Yazoo but you'd be hard pressed to find ANYBODY from their school that could fight their way out of a paper bag.

As a matter of fact, they are primarily Microsoft nerds who are 30+ years old and do not even care about self defense or fighting ability.

So does lineage matter? NO ... it does not matter. It means NOTHING except to assuage your ego that you're studying something worthwhile if you cannot judge for YOURSELF what the martial arts are worth.

So by pursuing all this lineage nonsense you are only showing how pitifully inadequate you are. That's the truth of it.

[The Xia]

One should know what he is doing. That is why lineage is important. Martial arts history isn't something to be disreguarded.

[lunghushan]

You're not going to find the history of martial arts in the oral history.

You're not going to find the history of martial arts in the written history.

You're not going to find the history of martial arts by ad hominem attacks.

CMA/Kun Tao/Karate, etc., is highly political and many stories have been made up for political benefit.

Do you analyze DNA by asking the human carrying it? Do you determine the father of a child by asking the possibly cheating wife? No, you do not ...

End of story.

[The Xia]

"neil", there is plenty of credible martial arts research. There is even archeology involved.

[lunghushan]

"neil", there is plenty of credible martial arts research. There is even archeology involved.

They lie. If the teachers lie do you think you'll get the truth out of archaeology?

[The Xia]

Last post TWS there was only one pic taken of Soo Kong the one we all see. If the doctors who did their research researched at all they would have seen all the other pics of Li Baoshu and called the pic that name . They did not because it is not Li Bao shu. That has been your argument all along. No researcher of medical illness would dare make a claim that was not true because it would discount his whole study.
The point is I stand on a rock not sand as you do your claim of Soo KOng being Li Baoshu has been defeated by a non martial art site with no bias. So basically it is only your word with "lost" proof against a web site displayed by multiple researchers with alot more riding on their findings than you do on yours. They are researchers and scientists you are not in their class. You cannot discount the fact it is there and says what it does. Lastly if you found that site in 2002 then why didnt you print it ? Because it would dispute what you have said all along. KC Sorry you lose.
The doctors were writing about hypertrichosis. They just used those pictures as examples of people with the disease. Even if they got the names of all them wrong it wouldn't discredit their research. The research was about the disease, not the people in the pictures.

They lie. If the teachers lie do you think you'll get the truth out of archaeology?
"neil", respectable martial arts researchers don't lie and archeology is a science. That statement of yours is absurd.

[lunghushan]

One more, then I'll stop. If you don't get this, then you don't get anything.

What is a 'respectable' martial artist? What is a 'respectable' martial arts teacher? If you know anything about Chinese culture, lying or bending the truth is considered very acceptable, much less worse than many other crimes, especially if you are trying to make money or save face.

As for archaeology being a science, it is entirely based upon people's interpretation of evidence according to their underlying hypotheses and premises. It isn't a science with reproducible results like physics, it's a soft science more akin to psychology.

Anyway, this is an extreme waste of time. If you like wasting your time then continue, but I won't.

[Judge Pen]

I have yet to see one Shaolin-Do form. Not one. Therefore how can I possibly pass judgement on their martial arts?


Here's one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

[Baqualin]

KC, the site you posted seems to be an online course in Europe.....the contact email they list is A.J.Lock@massey.ac.nz. maybe they can verify where their picture came from. I too agree there are differences in the nose between the pictures, even the one from Hiang's site.....I will believe GMS over his brother anytime....I have studied under both. This debate is nothing new..it's been going on for the 30 plus years that I've been in the system. NOBODY HAS YET TO PROVE OR DISPROVE ANYTHING. Like KC I have study other MA...worked out with people from a wide variety styles and OBSERVED a lot of CMA and others down through the years and I'm very proud and thankful of what GSM has brought to us. TWS there's nothing wrong with asking questions or questioning your style.....we all have done that and once again I'm sorry for your experience with SD....but DUDE you have issues.
:D

[BM2]

Thats not really true BlueTravesty. The Five Elders story about the Southern Shaolin Temple is present in many lineages and folk tales. The Su Kong Southern Shaolin Temple story is only present in Shaolin Do. In fact, the Su Kong story contradicts the Five Elders story.

It doesn't contradict its story as SD's tale has different time frame.
What about the possibility that a tale about the Five Elders had others jump on the band wagon too to add credibility to their style? There are other MA sites not associated with SD that use the list of styles taught at the different temple locations that were cut and pasted from SD sites. That doesn't add any proof that just because others have on their web site too, it is correct.

Somewhere in this thread a poster who I will not name stated that Chen family Tai CHi can trace their roots back several generations. I have been to Chen village and seen a stele with their lineage. There were several gaps with ..... where names should have been but where missing. Once it was three generations in a row missing in the lineage. This doesn't make Chen family style any less a real MA or that it in any way distract from its lineage but to show even Chen has gaps. There is a nearby village that teaches a somewhat similar style of MA that may be a parrallel style though they claim it as the original but not as well known. Seems as if it has Zhao something in its name.

[Yao Sing]

Well I was really hoping someone with access to face recognition software would come along because that would cut through the hair and measure the relationship between between points on the face.

The 2 pics I put side by side look very similar but when you look close to the distance from lower lip to chin and width of nose it becomes questionable. Obviously they look very much alike but are they one in the same?

Another question would by why didn't he just shave every day? Or at least shave his head like the rest of the monks?

[Yao Sing]

Ok, I tried polarizing, solarizing, drawing lines from inside of eyes to tip of nose, etc. but haven't come up with anythoing definitive.

I thought about trying to edit out some of the hair and simplify the pics but it's difficult.

So here are 3 pics put side by side. Li Baoshu, Hiang's Su Kong, Sin's Su Kong. I think they're similar enough to say they are the same person but that's personal perception, not fact.

[BlueTravesty]

I'll cast my vote in the "Lineage is NOT important" ballot box. Maybe that's just because the style I practice is a relatively recent fusion of two older styles. I still have fun practicing and I'm fairly confident I could handle myself decently in a fight, though that's not my primary concern.

[BlueTravesty]

Ok, I tried polarizing, solarizing, drawing lines from inside of eyes to tip of nose, etc. but haven't come up with anythoing definitive.

I thought about trying to edit out some of the hair and simplify the pics but it's difficult.

So here are 3 pics put side by side. Li Baoshu, Hiang's Su Kong, Sin's Su Kong. I think they're similar enough to say they are the same person but that's personal perception, not fact.

Wow. I don't know a WHOLE LOT about this debate, but I take it that Hiang and Sin are two different SD masters? You know, I'd go so far as to say that Hiang's Su Kong pic looks less like Sin's Su Kong than Li Baoshu. Wait, let me figure out what I just wrote... ok, basically Li Baoshu looks more similar to Sin's Su Kong than does Hiang's Su Kong. So either they're all the same person, one of them is a different person, or we just have three different pictures of hairy asian dudes.

Did I just hear a can opening? Wait a minute, where did all these worms come from? :D

[BM2]

Another question would by why didn't he just shave every day? Or at least shave his head like the rest of the monks?[/QUOTE]


I think that Gene also raised the question of shaving. That would be quite a job to do and I am not sure what quality razor you could find then. But in the SD story, he was not a monk, that he wanted to be known as for something other than his hair so he learned all the forms.

[Golden Tiger]

Absolutely amazing. I have stayed out of this latest line of debate because as one person stated, it has been argued to death. Something like 30 years worth. Now it has come to the point that the "anti-SD experts" are challenging the lectures of some professor far removed and the research of some fellow simply doing his job. Now we need to bring in face recognition technology to prove or disprove something that now one that actually studying SD cares about.

I find it funny that no one that I have trained or trained with over 30 some odd years, and I am talking numbers into the thousands, has ever cared a bit about any topic that is discussed here. Its generally a non issue. They hear the history, see the photos and thats about it. They are more concerned with learning and training the material offers.

It seems only those heII bent on proving that SD is not a good martial art even cares. And even if they do prove it, no one except them will care. Of course, they will be able to wear a big shlt eating grin and proudly claim "I brought down SD on an internet forum!!!". Then what? Will you try to get a 5 minute spot on Dateline to expose the shocking truth? Will you get some sort of twisted thrill knowing that you have caused me to stop training after 30 years because even though on most days I could kick you a$$, the history wasn't factual? I just don't get it.

This whole lineage thing, in my opinion, is silly. It doesn't prove a thing. Does it mean that everyone that studies from a pure, great lineage will be great? Or that everyone that studies from a crappy one will suck?

Watching a form on video and trying to slam it is silly too because unless you are doing it yourself, you can't tell what the form is like. You can't tell is it is being done exactly as was taught because everyone will adapt it to their own limitations.

Ok, I am off my soap box....have at it.

[Golden Tiger]

Ok, I tried polarizing, solarizing, drawing lines from inside of eyes to tip of nose, etc. but haven't come up with anythoing definitive.

I thought about trying to edit out some of the hair and simplify the pics but it's difficult.

So here are 3 pics put side by side. Li Baoshu, Hiang's Su Kong, Sin's Su Kong. I think they're similar enough to say they are the same person but that's personal perception, not fact.



Look at the part line of the hair, the crainail notch (nose meets head) and the roundness of the chin.

[lunghushan]

Here's one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

Okay, yeah, I wouldn't recommend studying from that guy. The form isn't too bad but he's not doing it quite right. The place where it really starts falling off is the stepping, like at 11 seconds, and 42 seconds into it ... he should be doing jie-sie-jie-sie. Then at 52 seconds into it he's just way too high. Overall his stances are just way too high.

[lunghushan]

please explain what you mean by stepping wrong or jie sie/ KC

Well it looks like he's just stepping ... that shouldn't be just stepping. That's a specific sequence. Some people call it unicorn stepping.

[The Xia]

The Five Elders story is present in many folk tales and respectable lineages. Yes, there is no concrete proof (as of yet). However, there are many versions of this story in various places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do. On top of that, it contradicts the Five Elders story.

And "neil", modern, credible archaeologists take a no B.S. approach to research. They use the finest in scientific equiptment to examine evidence. And respectable martial arts researchers examine evidence as well.

[lunghushan]

Could you please physically describe what you mean I also train in SD and do my Kwan Tao form with a different stepping pattern KC:)

The unicorn step or cross step he's doing there he's not low enough. He's way too high.

I don't know any way to describe it except find somebody good at unicorn step and watch them.

[The Xia]

Here's one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w
I remember seeing this on another thread.
****, Who picked that music? :D

[lunghushan]

The Five Elders story is present in many folk tales and respectable lineages. Yes, there is no concrete proof (as of yet). However, there are many versions of this story in various places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do. On top of that, it contradicts the Five Elders story.

And "neil", modern, credible archaeologists take a no B.S. approach to research. They use the finest in scientific equiptment to examine evidence. And respectable martial arts researchers examine evidence as well.

Yeah but Archaeologists come to some strange conclusions. For example, Tibetans who live in very dry and high altitudes used to practice something called 'sky burials', where a dead person, they carve them up and feed them to the vultures.

So in the Southwest U.S., archaeologists came across a lot of human bones that were carved up, high on these mountain peaks. So they decided that the people in the Southwest must practice human sacrifice and cannibalism.

They couldn't concieve of sky burials.

Do you see what I'm talking about here? They came to a conclusion based upon limited evidence. The conclusion may be correct but also may be incorrect, yet they think it is truth.

[lunghushan]

Let me ask with Unicorn step is one of the feet turned toe out with a raising of the knee high sort of looks like you are stomping the leg of an opponent. and the weight is carried low sort of gliding ?? KC

Yeah, what I was told Unicorn step is is a low stepping pattern where you cross step. In other words, step sideways in a low stance, back foot crosses in front of the front foot, then they switch. It looks like he's doing unicorn step, but he's way too high.

You could probably do it like you're saying with the knee high as well.

I don't really know what stepping is supposed to be done in this particular form except that it looks like it should be unicorn step and he's not really doing that, he's too high.

[The Xia]

It really depends on who is doing the research. In the past there was tons of lousy research that was called archaeology. Lousy researchers still exist, but there are alot of excellent ones as well. If you are truelly interested, read up on the better ones. The good ones examine all evidence, use scientific analysis, and put their findings into words. They explain precisely how their findings came about.

[lunghushan]

It really depends on who is doing the research. In the past there was tons of lousy research that was called archaeology. Lousy researchers still exist, but there are alot of excellent ones as well. If you are truelly interested, read up on the better ones. The good ones examine all evidence, use scientific analysis, and put their findings into words. They explain precisely how their findings came about.

Well what happens is there isn't really enough evidence most of the time to make conclusions, yet they make conclusions anyway.

And everybody accepts that as the truth, not realizing there wasn't enough evidence.

For example, Bering straight and humans coming over. They couldn't concieve of any ancient civilization having ships or anything that could reach the Americas, so they said it must have been a land bridge.

But now through other research they know that the Ming dynasty and before had huge ships capable of coming over, possibly even the Egyptians did too, and one guy built a raft that could do it of very basic materials.

So it kindof blows the entire land bridge theory out of the water. Yet that was considered by most scientists as the truth instead of a possibility.

[lunghushan]

OK well I do unicorn stepping then as you can guess different teachers emphasize different aspects of the art or form and teach it differently based upon their body style and strengths. Thanks for your imput and patience. KC

No problem, I'm not judging your style or anything, the form looks like a good form, just his execution isn't quite correct.

[The Xia]

There are alot of theories on some things and other things are proven. It's as simple as that. Today, more and more things are discovered and more and more history is revealed. There has also been alot of lousy research from the past that was passed off as archaeology that has now been proven wrong. There are still people who propogate falsities, but they are pushed to the fringe by the mainstream researchers.

[lunghushan]

There are alot of theories on some things and other things are proven. It's as simple as that. Today, more and more things are discovered and more and more history is revealed. There has also been alot of lousy research from the past that was passed off as archaeology that has now been proven wrong. There are still people who propogate falsities, but they are pushed to the fringe by the mainstream researchers.

No, it's not as simple, because if you understood the logical underpinnings of science you'd understand that it's based upon inductive reasoning, therefore nothing is ever proven, ever.

[The Xia]

"neil", that is simply not true. I acknowledged that there are many theories. However, we do know many things. If what you said was true, the Roman Coliseum could be thought of as a U.F.O. landing pad. However, in reality, we know much about the Coliseum.

[lunghushan]

"neil", that is simply not true. I acknowledged that there are many theories. However, we do know many things. If what you said was true, the Roman Coliseum could be thought of as a U.F.O. landing pad. However, in reality, we know much about the Coliseum.

No, I'm serious, nothing is ever proven in science. If you don't believe me, you need to study the logic behind science.

Hypothesis->Theory->Law, but laws still are not 100% proven.

Sure, it's highly probable that the Coliseum is not a UFO landing pad, but we don't know that for sure. We don't know for sure there aren't really UFOs from other planets, right?

[The Xia]

The existence of extraterrestrial visititation to this planet is a different game all together.
Do we really want to completely derail this thread with aliens and flying saucers? :p

As for the Coliseum, we do know allot about it. If you are interested, do some reading on it.

[lunghushan]

The existence of extraterrestrial visititation to this planet is a different game all together.
Do we really want to completely derail this thread with aliens and flying saucers? :p

As for the Coliseum, we do know allot about it. If you are interested, do some reading on it.

You were the one who brought up UFOs.

I have done a lot of reading about the Coliseum. I don't think that the Coliseum is a UFO landing pad, and the evidence would suggest that it was not. But it's not scientifically proven, because nothing is ever proven in science.

Most people don't understand the scientific method or the logical underpinnings of science, the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning, etc.

[Radhnoti]

The pic of Su Kong and the website KC referenced was posted in an SD discussion thread before. Maybe not this thread, but who can tell with the size of this thread now...anyway, I recall looking at that site before. And if the person who researched it did a good job and still called Su Kong Tai Djin a "buddhist master" wouldn't that also contradict SD history which states Su Kong was a "martial monk"?
I suspect, as others have posted, that the website maker was just googling around for "hypertrichosis" and took the first pics that popped up.

But, yeah, none of this matters unless your a lineage prima donna...which it seems most kung fu guys are. :p

[BoulderDawg]

You were the one who brought up UFOs.

I have done a lot of reading about the Coliseum. I don't think that the Coliseum is a UFO landing pad, and the evidence would suggest that it was not. But it's not scientifically proven, because nothing is ever proven in science.

Most people don't understand the scientific method or the logical underpinnings of science, the difference between deductive and inductive reasoning, etc.

We absolutely cannot talk about aliens....Their lineage cannot be proven!:eek:

[Judge Pen]

Lunghushan,

The person in the video isn't an SD master or even a full-time teacher. He is an average student who has attained a higher rank in SD.

In short, the person in that video is me, and I freely acknowedge that the form can and should be done more correctly. It is, however, a good representation of my forms skill.

[The Xia]

What about the music? :p

[lunghushan]

Lunghushan,

The person in the video isn't an SD master or even a full-time teacher. He is an average student who has attained a higher rank in SD.

In short, the person in that video is me, and I freely acknowedge that the form can and should be done more correctly. It is, however, a good representation of my forms skill.

Well I'm sorry for being critical.

Of course, part of my beef with the unicorn step is that I have a really hard time doing it myself ... also one of my teachers told me it's the first thing to go when people get older so a lot of lineages do not do their forms correctly because they were taught by older people. (He himself cannot do it because he f'ed up his knee).

[lunghushan]

Look, the reason I say, 900 forms ??? Is not because of the number of forms.

But how can you be a master of 900 forms? There's just no physical way. There aren't enough hours in the day.

You might be able to 'do' many forms, but you will not be able to do them correctly.

People in ancient times used to only usually master one weapon. The amoung of practice time for getting good at one weapon usually precluded mastering 2-3 weapons. Occasionally you'd find somebody who was really good at 2-3, who practiced an awful lot, but usually it was just one.

When you hear about famous generals or samurai who were good at spear, sword and bow, they spent all their spare time practicing and usually practiced full time as well. If you hold down a job there aren't enough hours in the day to practice.

[Judge Pen]

Don't be sorry for being critical. That form has already been posted and disected both for my ability and the CMA origin of the form. It is an example of an authentic SD form. The stepping was done the way I was taught, so I don't know how to compare it to your unicorn stepping.

The music was me playing around when I edited it, and then I could't take it off when I posted it. What, you have something against "Live"?

[Judge Pen]

Look, the reason I say, 900 forms ??? Is not because of the number of forms.

But how can you be a master of 900 forms? There's just no physical way. There aren't enough hours in the day.

You might be able to 'do' many forms, but you will not be able to do them correctly.

People in ancient times used to only usually master one weapon. The amoung of practice time for getting good at one weapon usually precluded mastering 2-3 weapons. Occasionally you'd find somebody who was really good at 2-3, who practiced an awful lot, but usually it was just one.

When you hear about famous generals or samurai who were good at spear, sword and bow, they spent all their spare time practicing and usually practiced full time as well. If you hold down a job there aren't enough hours in the day to practice.

I'm skeptical of 900 forms too, but in truth, I don't know how many forms Sin The has. I know he has said that he has to go back and work many of them up before he teaches them.

[BlueTravesty]

Some analogies:

Modern Shaolin (the current curriculum at the temple)::"Classical Shaolin"
as
Chinese food in Chinatown (any):: Real Chinese Food
Ergo...
Shaolin Derived Styles in America::Modern Shaolin::"Classical Shaolin"
as
Chinese-American Food::Chinese Food in Chinatown::Real Chinese Food

In other words, Chinese-American Food can still taste very good (Bourbon Chicken and Crab Rangoons, anyone?) and the guy/gal cooking it can still be said to be very talented, a master even- but it's still not Authentic. The best Chinese-American food chef might cook better tasting and higher quality food than a mediocre Chinatown Chef, but they're ultimately two different roads; the "fake" Chinese chef still can't go to the Chinatown chef and say "Hey, that's not Chinese food! It doesn't taste anything like mine!" without first defying quite a few key principles behind that process we like to call "Critical Thinking."

It all comes down to- do you want to make/eat poor quality authentic food, or high-quality "fake" food?

Me, I'd rather have high quality authentic food. But as we all know, that is a hard find, and some people don't like authentic food ("yuck, squid!" "Ewwww... you're gonna eat TOFU???") which is fine. Live and let live.
Make of that what you will. :D

[Radhnoti]

BT. Borrowing your example: What if the "Chinese food" was controlled by the communist Chinese food association and they'd passed new guidelines for the nutritional values the "Chinese food" must contain. Tasting more sweet was also a new prerequisite.
"Authentic" becomes a bit of a moot point...it's all been changed.

[The Willow Sword]

Have you received a response from Prof. Dikotter? TWS

[Judge Pen]

Here is Dr. Dikotter's response and my follow-up:

Dr. Dikotter,

Thank you for your reply. I am not privy to the other inquiaries other than they have been made. Can you tell me whether or not you have come across this photograph before? If so, do you believe this to be Li Baoshu? Again, thank you for your time.


http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2549&d=1109867470

[Judge Pen]

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Dikotter [mailto:dikotter@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 1:29 PM
To: [Judge Pen]
Subject: Re: Li Baoshu

Hi [JP],

I have received many similar questions about Li Baoshu but unfortunately do not know anything else!

Frank

[Golden Tiger]

Hi [JP],

I have received many similar questions about Li Baoshu but unfortunately do not know anything else!

Frank



aka....stop bugging me and start training....:D

[Judge Pen]

Yep, probably. Too bad TWS' computer crashed so we could have those e-mails.

[The Willow Sword]

that was not the reply i got when i emailed Dikotter. Yes it would be nice if i had those email messages from him. from what i can recall the reply to my inquiry was something along the lines of " i have never seen this particular pic of li baoshu before, but that is definately him etc etc". i emailed him back asking where he got the pic he used in his article and he responded with the name of the book(which i have posted on page 78 of this thread).

i find it strange that the response would be as such JP(considering that there was a definite idenitification from prof. dikotter based on his skills of discernment). although it has been a couple of years since i emailed him, and i wouldnt expect that this subject would be on the forefront of his mind. I am not lying about contacting him or lying about what his response was to me at the time i emailed him. (im not that kind of person,ill swear on my life to it).

regardless, the info i recieved already proved to me what i already knew, whether you guys want to say its inconclusive is your interpretation and quite frankly your own denial. The prof. doesnt know of SD nor does he spend his time exlporing the in's and outs of the lineage and history as we have done here countless times. Because The prof. article had no relation to martial arts but contained that pic which is clearly the same as the suit and tie li baoshu, i had wanted to contact him directly and ask him if he thought the two pics were the same individual. he corroborated at the time that it was definately him. Hey and it is possible that he could have changed his mind but i had recieved no follow ups and wouldnt expect that he would email me back.

i maintain my stance based on the info i recieved at the time i asked for it, it proved to me a great many things about the school and my dealings with sd.
i am gone from it now, i am much better off knowing that i dont support or condone an organization,regardless of how good or solid the material is,who misrepresents itself and who fabricates its lineage to further a money making agenda and to ride the coat tail of the TCMA/Shaolin realm. it doesnt matter if you are a good school,if you bullsh!t your trip then you arent worth squat,you lack integrity and honor and that is something thati dont want to be a part of.

So debate away, post your own rhetoric, choke the bandwidth with this thread.
if your conscience doesnt bother you then so be it.

Peace,TWS

[Learn]

Gentlepersons,

I have been travelling and there has been much discussion. I offer some thoughts from my perspective. Take them or leave them as you will. I don't worry about lineage. I really don't care about whether it came straight from wherever. When the rubber meets the road, does it grip? Can Sin The trace his lineage to Da Mo? Who cares. You can't even get a consensus on whether Da Mo existed. I look at it very practically. Does what SD teach makes sense. My academic training teaches me to look at things with an eye toward analysis and proof. The whole hairy guy thing? I don't care if he taught my teacher or not, but I do become concerned when it is proffered as truth as to lineage. I'm ok with no mystery to my teacher's lineage. I get concerned though when someone offers me something that is obviously a hoax to justify importance. It is what it is, if you've got genuine teachings to pass on, you don't need a monkey man. Lest that sound harsh, as I have said before, SD did good things for me. Yet, I feel there is some honsesty lacking. I have studied Japanese, Chinese, SD, Philipino, Indonesian, American martial arts. I love CMA most above all. But what I learned in SD, at a somewhat advanced level, let me down. Here's the deal (I am not the end all be all of martial wisdom, but here's my thoughts) you just can't master monkey, tiger, eagle, crane, tai ji, ba gua, etc. etc. etc, by learning the forms. You have to find a teacher dedicated to teaching those particular things. Each has so much to offer and so many nuances. The nuances get lost in SD, and that's where a martial art lies.

[Learn]

A previous poster asked if I had been cut in a knife fight or training. No, I have not been cut in a knife fight, but I have been injured many times in training. I believe he was responding to my post about Kali and my thoughts that it was a real world method of training. I dont wish to engage in a diXX wagging contest. Kali is very reality oriented and trains as such, depending on the teacher. There is no reason CMA cannot be the same. I am sure a good kick axx hard core muthafucxx jian/dao teacher can do the same. There is much benefit to doing forms with jian/dao without any realism, but to use them as a practical matter is a different thing. Can most CMA practioners do that? I do not denigrate doing sword forms, I love them, but going to real combative application is another level I fear may be missed in many schools. If your school is different, I applaud you. You are in a good place.

[Golden Tiger]

that was not the reply i got when i emailed Dikotter.......

.......i find it strange that the response would be as such JP

....... I am not lying about contacting him or lying about what his response was to me at the time i emailed him. (im not that kind of person,ill swear on my life to it).

.........Hey and it is possible that he could have changed his mind ......

........i maintain my stance based on the info i recieved at the time i asked for it,

.......So debate away, post your own rhetoric, choke the bandwidth with this thread.
if your conscience doesnt bother you then so be it.

Peace,TWS

For those of you keeping score at home, it is now:

TWS spouting off on this forum: 2
TWS backing up anything he says: 0

[Judge Pen]

LOL at GT.

TWS, for what its worth, I don't think you are lying about Dr. D's responses. Perhaps he is just tired of people from the internet asking him silly questions about a hairy man. But I posted the extra pics (which many would argue hurts SD's claims) because I don't care if Su Kong was real or not. It's never really bothered me so I have no reason to sit on informaiton that may or may not prove he was someone else wor whatever. If I find some information that can actually speak to a claim that is made, I'll talk about it here.

I get tired of statements made (from both camps) that have nothing to support them but suppostition and opinion.

[Baqualin]

LOL at GT.

TWS, for what its worth, I don't think you are lying about Dr. D's responses. Perhaps he is just tired of people from the internet asking him silly questions about a hairy man. But I posted the extra pics (which many would argue hurts SD's claims) because I don't care if Su Kong was real or not. It's never really bothered me so I have no reason to sit on informaiton that may or may not prove he was someone else wor whatever. If I find some information that can actually speak to a claim that is made, I'll talk about it here.

I get tired of statements made (from both camps) that have nothing to support them but suppostition and opinion.

AMEN JP!! Finally someone is making sense. It would be nice to learn from each other instead of bickering back and forth about things that will not inhance your skills in any way as a martial artist.

TWS: I've sit back and watched this thread for quite some time.....it's the same people commenting everytime...even when you go back months or years.....so your mission to discredit SD will not be successful here, your only going round and round with the same people and we're (SD) still growing everyday. It would be nice to share training methods and positive information you've pick up in your studies. I think you have a lot to offer.

[The Xia]

The music was me playing around when I edited it, and then I could't take it off when I posted it. What, you have something against "Live"?
For my tastes, there are only a few kinds of music that go well with forms.

[Judge Pen]

For my tastes, there are only a few kinds of music that go well with forms.

Examples? Don't tell me the soundtrack to "Mortal Combat" :p

[The Xia]

Traditional Asian music or classical. Pretty much nothing modern, unless it's movie music.

[BM2]

How about Elvis's "Promised Land"?;)

[BlueTravesty]

BT. Borrowing your example: What if the "Chinese food" was controlled by the communist Chinese food association and they'd passed new guidelines for the nutritional values the "Chinese food" must contain. Tasting more sweet was also a new prerequisite.
"Authentic" becomes a bit of a moot point...it's all been changed.

That is a good analogy... to modern wushu anyway. I'm sure modern wushu had some impact on the teaching of traditional arts, but I think that given the feud between Wushu and Traditional practitioners, they can still be thought as two totally seperate entities.

I've heard the argument of "So what if our style looks different? China made Modern Wushu, so anything from China must look different from the 'original.'" I am sure that the Praying Mantis of today looks somewhat different from Wong Long's original method; but I think that has to do more with the various styles that came about (Seven Star, Plum Flower, Taiji Mantis, Six Harmonies, Eight Step, etc.) than with any possible influence from Modern Wushu (yes, I know they have a mantis form.) Many mantis schools in the U.S get their lineage from Taiwan or Hong Kong. These two places were places of refuge for Martial Artists fleeing persecution during the cultural revolution.

As for "sweetness"; styles such as Longfist (just about every sub-category) Pigua, Eagle Claw, Mizong, etc. have had high, spinning kicks and jumps for a LONG time. I'm talking about before Modern Wushu was even thought of. The difference between these styles (traditional Long Fist was the basis upon which Modern Wushu was developed) was the forms, martial flavor and intent, and MUCH less emphasis on these difficult techniques. Most traditional styles will teach a 360 degree jump-spinning crescent. Wushu will teach a 540 degree kick with a run across the room, landing in a split.

In short, like Chinatown food, the Shaolin currently taught at the Shaolin temple may be different from pre-20th Century Shaolin. And yes, some of the monks do Wushu. However, from what I have seen of them in performances, that is not ALL they do, as some like to claim. The Chinese government does not currently regulate Shaolin or any other traditional style, unless you count the compulsories that SHAOLIN ITSELF created and wants to get accepted in Wushu competition. These look NOTHING like Wushu Changquan. Nor do the traditional forms taught in the Shaolin curriculum like Da/Xiao Hong, Da/Xiao Lohan, Seven Star fist (not mantis), etc.

[unkokusai]

Traditional Asian music .


...........................:rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

To each their own. I like a bit more "umph" behind my work-out music. Now the pan flute isn't bad if I'm doing tai chi, but even then I like a more modern influence to my music.

[lxtruong]

To each their own. I like a bit more "umph" behind my work-out music. Now the pan flute isn't bad if I'm doing tai chi, but even then I like a more modern influence to my music.

Right on. The type of music has to fit. It's like the time that "Georgia on my mind" (Ray Charles) was on while we were doing iron palm. I swear the bar felt especially heavy that day.

[BlueTravesty]

For weapon form mood-music, I like "New Legend" from the Soul Calibur/Soul Calibur 3 soundtrack. Of course, this is because I am a hopeless nerd.

[MasterKiller]

I'm a Public Enemy man, myself.

Get Up and Get, Get Down!
Nine-One-One is joke in yo' town!

[The Xia]

...........................:rolleyes:
Your point is?

[Judge Pen]

I'm a Public Enemy man, myself.

Get Up and Get, Get Down!
Nine-One-One is joke in yo' town!

How do you swing that Monk's spade with the big clock around your neck?

[BlueTravesty]

no fair, TheXia! You should've taken a small snippet of unkokusai's post, quoted it and then given 'im the old :rolleyes: or if you're REALLY spunky maybe one of these :eek:

Don't you know ANYTHING about forum debates?? That quote should have only had 3 elipses. Geez :rolleyes: <./sarcasm>

[MasterKiller]

How do you swing that Monk's spade with the big clock around your neck?

The clock is easy to aviod. Keeping the top hat on while spinning the spade behind my back is the real trick.

[Radhnoti]

Blue Travesty - "Many mantis schools in the U.S get their lineage from Taiwan or Hong Kong. These two places were places of refuge for Martial Artists fleeing persecution during the cultural revolution."

Many who practice kuntao would argue the Chinese enclaves, in Indonesia, were places of refuge for Martial Artists fleeing persecution during the cultural revolution as well.

[BlueTravesty]

I would agree, great point for Kuntao. However, look at Kuntao and Shaolin-Do. Two totally different beasts. Kuntao may have elements of CMA that "modern" CMA may have "lost" but on the same token, many of these elements could just have easily been a result of cultural and martial cross-pollination. As you mentioned, many Kuntao teachings are based on Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi. These arts aren't known for the "flash" elements that are present in Northern Chinese styles like LongFist, etc. Therefore, if that's what they know, practice and have had handed down to them, it would be all to easy to look at Long Fist and say "Yeah, that's not real. That's just Wushu" based on superficial similarities.

[The Xia]

no fair, TheXia! You should've taken a small snippet of unkokusai's post, quoted it and then given 'im the old :rolleyes: or if you're REALLY spunky maybe one of these :eek:

Don't you know ANYTHING about forum debates?? That quote should have only had 3 elipses. Geez :rolleyes: <./sarcasm>
What? :confused:

[Judge Pen]

I would agree, great point for Kuntao. However, look at Kuntao and Shaolin-Do. Two totally different beasts. Kuntao may have elements of CMA that "modern" CMA may have "lost" but on the same token, many of these elements could just have easily been a result of cultural and martial cross-pollination. As you mentioned, many Kuntao teachings are based on Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi. These arts aren't known for the "flash" elements that are present in Northern Chinese styles like LongFist, etc.

Doesnt' that depend on what the people who settled in Indonesia trained in prior to settling there? I agree with the cross pollination. Indonesia appears to be quite the martial melting pot.

[BlueTravesty]

What? :confused:

I noticed that unkokusai kinda took a small piece of what you said, responded with a bunch of elipses, a :rolleyes: and refused to elaborate past that. You gave him a much more thorough response. I dunno I was in a wierd mood.

[The Xia]

I noticed that unkokusai kinda took a small piece of what you said, responded with a bunch of elipses, a :rolleyes: and refused to elaborate past that. You gave him a much more thorough response. I dunno I was in a wierd mood.
I now understand what you were saying.

[ricardocameron]

Don't be sorry for being critical. That form has already been posted and disected both for my ability and the CMA origin of the form. It is an example of an authentic SD form. The stepping was done the way I was taught, so I don't know how to compare it to your unicorn stepping.

The music was me playing around when I edited it, and then I could't take it off when I posted it. What, you have something against "Live"?

First of all, LIVE is the shiznit!! And the song worked well with your form; I liked it.

More, More!!

The forms issue?? Maybe he's including the short forms, sparring techniques, 10 street techniques, chin-na, etc.... and exagerating ;)

[Learn]

Kwai Chung,

I'm going to practice jian forms this weekend because I enjoy them. I'm also going to practice Kali skills, because I feel that what Leo Gaje has to teach is truly applicable to the real modern world. I haven't been cut, but my teachers have known real world blade combat. How does this fit in to the discussion about SD?, It's a great foundation but I don't think it leads one to the ultimate destination. If one wishes to really achieve in cma, I don't feel SD is the ultimate goal. I followed that path, and I still take some things from it, but ultimately, it will not provide the way. I do not wish to denigrate those who follow that path. I hope you get alot from it, this is just my perspective.

[ricardocameron]

:confused: .....and Ed Parker's rolling in his grave. American Kenpo Karate...
He took cma (Shaolin)and "scientifically improved" on it..( read: MADE UP STUFF)..who gives a rat's ass? Does it work?

Gichin funakoshi, Karate-Do.....

O-Sensei Ueshiba Morihei - The Founder of Modern Aikido.....

It's the SHAOLIN WAY (shao-lin DO)!!!!!!

[Citong Shifu]

Hey Everyone,
I'm sorry for bringing this up, but I've been reseaching the different shaolin do websites and I'm still very confused about the style. I always approach different styles with an open mind, like many others, I'm not the authority on the 1000's of styles out there today....

My question is this, Shaolin Do is based from the Fukien / Fujian Shaolin Temple arts, but I dont see the three Shaolin core styles.... Also, What is the "Grandmaster of Shaolin" all about or the "Youngest Grandmaster of Shaolin"? Every Shaolin Temple has there Grandmasters (for martial arts), since Sin The' was from Indonesia, was there another Shaolin Temple there that he became Grandmaster of?

I ask these questions because of the information found on the Shaolin do websites. When reading SD websites it sounds as though SD's Grandmaster is Grandmaster of all Shaolin kungfu....

Like I've said, I'm just confused and mean no disrespect, can anyone help this make sense to me???


Sifu Ron.

[brucereiter]

Hey Everyone,
I'm sorry for bringing this up, but I've been reseaching the different shaolin do websites and I'm still very confused about the style. I always approach different styles with an open mind, like many others, I'm not the authority on the 1000's of styles out there today....

My question is this, Shaolin Do is based from the Fukien / Fujian Shaolin Temple arts, but I dont see the three Shaolin core styles.... Also, What is the "Grandmaster of Shaolin" all about or the "Youngest Grandmaster of Shaolin"? Every Shaolin Temple has there Grandmasters (for martial arts), since Sin The' was from Indonesia, was there another Shaolin Temple there that he became Grandmaster of?

I ask these questions because of the information found on the Shaolin do websites. When reading SD websites it sounds as though SD's Grandmaster is Grandmaster of all Shaolin kungfu....

Like I've said, I'm just confused and mean no disrespect, can anyone help this make sense to me???


Sifu Ron.

hello ron,

depending on how you read it it can be confusing ...

as far as i know grandmaster the' is the grandmaster or leader of a martial arts system called shaolin do. shaolin do is a collection of chinese martial arts styles that was organized in indonisia. grandmaster the' is not and as far as i know the grandmaster of any shaolin TEMPLE but is like i stated before the grandmaster of shaolin do. as far as being the youngest grandmaster he was a young man when his teacher handed the system over to him ...

what are the "3 core styles" you are not seeing in shaolin do?

p.s. everything i wrote is what i understand the truth to be. i am sorry if i am mistaken.

[Citong Shifu]

shaolindoiscool,
Thanks! The three core styles would be shaolin quan, shaolin louhan quan, shaolin di shu... Ok, it makes more since to me now (A collection of shaolin forms).

Thanks Again...

[ricardocameron]

shaolindoiscool,
Ok, it makes more since to me now (A collection of shaolin forms).

Thanks Again...


EXACTLY!
Grandmaster The is head an extensive system of collected Shao-Lin teachings, PROBABLY the most comprehensive around...that's all, there may be other GM's, but they probably don't have alot of this stuff... But, as I don't have SD teaching available now, I'd do most any MA, for balance, timing, etc!!

"The Shaolin Temples were the equivalent of universities for the martial arts. Masters were professors, each of them a specialist in a particular area of training. Temples were known for a particular style, just like medical schools of today. Monks at each temple still practiced the forms from the other temples, but they specialized in the style for which their particular temple was known for.
Over the course of time, an untold amount of martial knowledge was housed at the Shaolin temples... "


Read more here:
http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/theart.shtml
and
http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/history.shtml

We can't know much more, no good records from china.....:(

We have differences. May we, together, become greater than the sum of both of us.

There is no offense where none is taken.


Fake-ass Vulcan "teachings" from StarTrek. But who cares?

Truth is Truth, no matter WHO says it .

[brucereiter]

shaolindoiscool,
Thanks! The three core styles would be shaolin quan, shaolin louhan quan, shaolin di shu... Ok, it makes more since to me now (A collection of shaolin forms).

Thanks Again...

hi ron,

i know Luo Han Quan (Fist of the Arhat) is taught in shaolin do, "di shu" i dont know it by that name and i am not sure what "shaolin quan" is.

i am in the internal martial arts program so i have not really learned the forms in question here ...

[Yao Sing]

"The Shaolin Temples were the equivalent of universities for the martial arts. Masters were professors, each of them a specialist in a particular area of training. Temples were known for a particular style, just like medical schools of today. Monks at each temple still practiced the forms from the other temples, but they specialized in the style for which their particular temple was known for.
Over the course of time, an untold amount of martial knowledge was housed at the Shaolin temples... "

Whatever happened to Bhuddism? Reading this it sounds like the Temples were all about fighting and getting advanced MA degrees.

Physical exercise was just a side item and fighting was just a small piece (or byproduct) of the physical training.

[brucereiter]

Whatever happened to Bhuddism? Reading this it sounds like the Temples were all about fighting and getting advanced MA degrees.

Physical exercise was just a side item and fighting was just a small piece (or byproduct) of the physical training.

it is all in the interpetation and understanding of the reader. i dont think shaolin do claims to be a religious practice it claims to be a martial arts practice that in part has roots in buddhist temples.

what is buddhisim to you?

[Radhnoti]

It is my understanding that shaolin-do's history indicates that there were two "types" of monks. Those specializing in Buddhism and those specializing in various martial arts. (Interestingly, I've always felt GM Sin to be somewhat Taoist in his philosophy/discourse...I've never heard him mention Buddhism.) Shaolin-do teaches that Su Kong Tai Djin was the first martial monk to receive teaching in every "style" taught by Shaolin, making him the first "Grandmaster of all Shaolin". Shaolin-do tradition (once just oral, I'm assuming) indicates that Grandmaster Ie next received the "full transmission"...and Grandmaster Sin is the third and youngest. In the GM Sin collaborated book, it's stated plainly that the huge amount of material could never be mastered without "Sixth Sense Training", which includes a sort of trained photographic memory among other things. Many critics point out that no SD Master has ever mentioned being trained in this discipline...though, I suppose it could also be argued that the training would be SD's ultimate "closed door" training, and therefore not openly discussed.

It's probably not completely accurate to say GM Sin doesn't consider himself "The GM of all Shaolin", since the history shaolin-do presents indicates that he is the only one who could have legitimately received the title. I always got the impression from the teachers I interacted with that the title was like a relic of a shaolin "golden age"...
There have been statements made on THIS board (by Reemul for one as I recall...the fellow TheWillowSword carried out a challenge match against as a SD guy) that GM Sin and/or agents of GM Sin went to various schools that claimed shaolin heritage and requested that they recognize his Grandmaster of Shaolin title. I cannot verify this to be true, but it's a charge I saw leveled on this board more than once. Things were certainly interesting for shaolin-do in the late 70's through early 80's, lots of fighting...from my perspective it looks like there were some pretty big personalities (how's that for political correctness :D ) too.

[Leto]

Totally irrelevant and off topic, but...
GM The mentioned at one of his seminars a few years ago, while he was talking about spirituality and immortality and stuff, that his number one spiritual inspiration is Jesus and number two is Buddha.
People who were hanging out with GM The on the last CSC China trip (2004) said someone asked him if he was Buddhist or Taoist. He said something like "Buddhism says no eat meat, no sex. Taoism says eat meat and sex are ok. Which one you think I am?"
Another point for him being more Taoist than anything is his professed quest for immortality, or at least longevity. He shared with us that he plans to live to at least 120 or 130 years old, and that he will achieve this because of his qi gong practices.

[Yao Sing]

New picture of Shaolin Do founder Su Kong recently discovered.

[Citong Shifu]

hi ron,

i know Luo Han Quan (Fist of the Arhat) is taught in shaolin do, "di shu" i dont know it by that name and i am not sure what "shaolin quan" is.

i am in the internal martial arts program so i have not really learned the forms in question here ...


shaolindoiscool,
Shaolin Quan = Shaolin Boxing, Shaolin Louhan Quan = Louhan Boxing, & Shaolin Di Shu Quan = Shaolin Ground or Dog boxing... Each being a complete style to itself... I did see in one of the SD's websites a curriculum that mentioned shaolin louhan quan. Is this a form from louhan or the actual shaolin louhan style? I thought it was just a single form when reading it on the list...

Anyway, it doesnt matter... SD has a very diverse amount of material..... Alot to learn.... Good luck with your training...

Sifu Ron...

[Radhnoti]

Yao Sing, I bet in this thread alone someone has posted something like that 20 or more times...often it's Chewbacca from Star Wars, but I've seen a lot of dogs too. I guess it loses it's charm after 10 or so. :)

Leto, I've heard GM Sin mention immortality as well like it was something semi-achievable. Did you ever catch any of those online "shows" he was doing where he was dressed in white with a mostly white background? There was supposed to be a group of them, but I think the site it was being released on went under.
Regarding immortality...every "longevity" chi thing I've run across where that's the goal mentions abstaining from sex. Just from GM Sin's comments (like the one you mentioned)...I hope he's found a good way to work around that. He always seem to have a pretty girl or two around.

[The Xia]

Grandmaster The is head an extensive system of collected Shao-Lin teachings, PROBABLY the most comprehensive around...

It's probably not completely accurate to say GM Sin doesn't consider himself "The GM of all Shaolin", since the history shaolin-do presents indicates that he is the only one who could have legitimately received the title. I always got the impression from the teachers I interacted with that the title was like a relic of a shaolin "golden age"...
After all that has been said in this thread you are still sticking to this?

[lunghushan]

New picture of Shaolin Do founder Su Kong recently discovered.

Thank you. That's the best post on this thread by far.

[kungfujunky]

Thank you. That's the best post on this thread by far.



i think its the most childish reply i have seen. we are all looking for answers and some person thinks that is a cool idea?

what a complete lack of respect that shows. and a total waste of time as well.

[BlueTravesty]

I thought it was pretty relevant to the level of maturity throughout this discussion by all parties (myself included.)

But hey, what do I know? I practice a "fake" traditional style with stuff like butterfly kicks, etc. that NEVER EVER were in ANY form of Shaolin kung fu, and is an invention of the time-traveling Modern Wushu conspiracy

See, what happens, is Wushu Players do their forms so fast, they actually start to go back in time. Jet Li went so far back in time, he landed in Henan Province during the Tang Dynasty, and intentionally corrupted Kung Fu to make it look like Wushu. Since ALL KUNG FU COMES FROM SHAOLIN, this of course had a ripple effect that was only escaped by a few plucky persons who fled to Indonesia. Did you think it was a coincidence that he was in the movie Shaolin Temple? I think not.

[brucereiter]

shaolindoiscool,
Shaolin Quan = Shaolin Boxing, Shaolin Louhan Quan = Louhan Boxing, & Shaolin Di Shu Quan = Shaolin Ground or Dog boxing... Each being a complete style to itself... I did see in one of the SD's websites a curriculum that mentioned shaolin louhan quan. Is this a form from louhan or the actual shaolin louhan style? I thought it was just a single form when reading it on the list...

Anyway, it doesnt matter... SD has a very diverse amount of material..... Alot to learn.... Good luck with your training...

Sifu Ron...

hi ron,

thanks for the info. i am not really sure about the external martial arts side of shaolin do as i practice tai chi chuan, pakua and hsingi as my main focus.

maybe one of the other sd people know.
yes we do have a wide range of material ...

what do you train?

[brucereiter]

It's probably not completely accurate to say GM Sin doesn't consider himself "The GM of all Shaolin", since the history shaolin-do presents indicates that he is the only one who could have legitimately received the title. I always got the impression from the teachers I interacted with that the title was like a relic of a shaolin "golden age"...
.

hi radhnoti,

what history are you speaking about?

as far as i know grand master the' recieved the title from his teacher in indonesia ie chang ming would was buddhist and used to be a monk but was not in any monastic order in indonesia. i have heard grand master the' say he is grand master of shaolin but i do not think he implies he he the leader for example of the shaolin temple. i think he implies he is the "holder" of a very large collection of martial arts that were passed onto him from his teacher and the leader of a system called shaolin do.

i guess you would have to define what "shaolin" is. i think logic will tell you.

no offense intended i just do not agree with the above ...

[Citong Shifu]

hi ron,

thanks for the info. i am not really sure about the external martial arts side of shaolin do as i practice tai chi chuan, pakua and hsingi as my main focus.

maybe one of the other sd people know.
yes we do have a wide range of material ...

what do you train?


SDIC,
I train Fujian / Fukien Shaolin Temple Kungfu; shaolin quan, shaolin louhan quan, & shaolin di shu which is our core training. We also teach changquan, tong bei quan, & yang taijiquan...

Sifu Ron

[Radhnoti]

The Xia - "After all that has been said in this thread you are still sticking to this?"

Not sure if you were entirely referring to me, as you quoted two posters. I'm just giving my impression of how shaolin-do represents itself to it's students...based entirely on my own perspective. I've already stated that my personal opinion is that Su Kong Tai Djin was never a GM in any Shaolin temple. I think GM Ie put SD together with his colleagues in Indonesia...AND I think the system was (originally) Shaolin based. SD would NOT be the only martial art with a semi-fictionalized beginning...especially if you compare it to other arts with a genesis in the Indo-Chinese area.

SDIC,

GM Sin's book states, "In 1968, Grandmaster Ie awarded the tenth degree blackbelt and with it the title of Grandmaster of Shaolin to Sin Kwang The'." Earlier it states, "Before his death in China in 1928 at the age of 79, Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Jin passed on the title of Grandmaster of Shaolin to Ie Chang Ming. " And just prior to that, "Tai Jin learned many different styles and eventually became the Grandmaster of Shaolin. As Grandmaster, he was in charge of the temple's fighting arts and training programs." The official Shaolin-do training manual says of GM Sin's decision to not make use of his Nuclear Engineering Degree, "Grandmaster The' realized that while there were many engineers and scientists, he was only Shaolin Grandmaster."

The title, as stated in the shaolin-do literature, (and note the capitalization) is Grandmaster of Shaolin, and that's the title SD represents GM Sin received. When SD students here say, "He's just saying he's the GM of shaolin-do...", well, I disagree with that. It's being stated that he is the only person who can legitimately claim Shaolin martial authority, at least the authority that existed prior to the temple being destroyed. This is not a criticism on my part, just pointing out what I've always assumed was the history passed down to the students.

[The Xia]

Not sure if you were entirely referring to me, as you quoted two posters. I'm just giving my impression of how shaolin-do represents itself to it's students...based entirely on my own perspective. I've already stated that my personal opinion is that Su Kong Tai Djin was never a GM in any Shaolin temple. I think GM Ie put SD together with his colleagues in Indonesia...AND I think the system was (originally) Shaolin based. SD would NOT be the only martial art with a semi-fictionalized beginning...especially if you compare it to other arts with a genesis in the Indo-Chinese area.
So you were simply stating the claims but you do not hold to them?
If so, this thread is making progress.

[Radhnoti]

Maybe less so than you imagine. I've not taken a shaolin-do class since my daughter's birth 2 years ago...and my one time shaolin-do school quit and then was fired. I'm not exactly the standard shaolin-do representative.
I respect the style. I like GM Sin. I like JP and GT...and I like TWS. Everyone is telling the truth from their perspective. I just think there's a whole lotta holes in the story, like what in the heck went on in Indonesia. I think some parts of the beginning of the style have been embellished, just like MANY other martial arts. And I think there have been occasional marketing strategies gone awry. I'm not a part of SD anymore, but I would love to see all it's historical wrinkles ironed out.

[ninthdrunk]

How many of y'all are gonna be at Golden Leopard in a couple weeks?

[Golden Tiger]

How many of y'all are gonna be at Golden Leopard in a couple weeks?


:D .........................

[The Willow Sword]

hehe i think the reason why some here actually "like" me is because they see me as the weird uncle that comes around from time to time, not a threat persay, but just the weird uncle that occasionally rants and raves. Everyone is entertained by the funny uncle:D

The only thing though is that i feel that this title of grandmaster of Shaolin is "self" appointed, rather than recognized by the rest of the cma realm. i mean if we are legitamizing the grandmaster appointment then hell sh!t Fire fellas, I am the grandmaster of starter brand ankle socks. (i love those socks and have been wearing them for years)

Your affectionate weird uncle,TWS:o

[brucereiter]

what are some possible definitions of grandmaster?
what does it mean to be a grandmaster?
how does one become a grandmaster?

[The Xia]

In martial arts, a grandmaster is a Sigung. Someone who's student(s) has student(s). However, in Shaolin Do, grandmaster is being used to mean something along the lines of the Japanese term Soke. And only within Shaolin Do circles do I see Sin The, and Su Kong, recognized as Shaolin "grandmasters" (the supreme authority on all things Shaolin).

[The Xia]

I think just the supreme authority on Shaolin Do but his knowledge of all things Shaolin is truly astounding KC :)
The word I typoed is in bold and underlined
Originally I put "And only within Shaolin Do circles so I see Sin The, and Su Kong, recognized as Shaolin "grandmasters" (the supreme authority on all things Shaolin)."
I accidentally put "s" where I meant "d" (they are right next to each other on the keyboard), therefore altering the meaning. But I edited it. So the error isn't there anymore. What I meant to say (and what it now says in the post) is, "And only within Shaolin Do circles do I see Sin The, and Su Kong, recognized as Shaolin "grandmasters" (the supreme authority on all things Shaolin)."

[Shaolin]

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

It is real if someone believes it to be.

[The Xia]

It is real if someone believes it to be.
Incorrect. Belief in something doesn't make it true or real. If someone believes that William Shatner is a 2 foot tall cross between a frog and a lobster, that doesn't make it true.

[brucereiter]

In martial arts, a grandmaster is a Sigung. Someone who's student(s) has student(s). .

the above is i think a good partial definition but i would expand this to say they have been appointed or chosen by the previous grandmaster (leader of a martial arts organization) and will decide in the future who will take control of the system after him.
there are many people under grandmaster the who have their own students and thoses students have students and so on this does not make them a "grandmaster" it makes them someone who has students.

at any rate grandmaster the was chosen by his teacher to be the leader and this is what as far as i know caused him to become "grandmaster".



However, in Shaolin Do, grandmaster is being used to mean something along the lines of the Japanese term Soke. And only within Shaolin Do circles do I see Sin The, and Su Kong, recognized as Shaolin "grandmasters" (the supreme authority on all things Shaolin)

i think the above is an interitation taken to the wrong extreme.

i think you have to define "shaolin" in the context of the statement/claim. i do not think there have ever been claims that gmt is the leader of shaolin temple or ever a part of the current temple under abbot yong xin. he does however as far as i know claim to be the grandmaster of shaolin meaning he is the "holder" of a collection or martial arts known as "shaolin do".

:-)

[Shaolin]

Incorrect. Belief in something doesn't make it true or real. If someone believes that William Shatner is a 2 foot tall cross between a frog and a lobster, that doesn't make it true.

Belief from one does not make something a truth but belief from many does. Example religion, government, mathmatics, language. One day long ago some decided to call a child William Shatner, they introduce him to others as William Shatner. Many years later everyone believes this man is William Shatner. You believe I am incorrect, convince others of this and I will be incorrect. :D Keep searching Xia, I believe someday you'll see it to.

[The Xia]

Mass belief doesn't make it real either. In the past there was a widely held belief that left handed people were inherently evil. That doesn't make it true.

[Shaolin]

Correct. Today it doesn't make it true, but, "in the past" it did.

[The Xia]

Correct. Today it doesn't make it true, but, "in the past" it did.
It wasn't true in the past. People just believed it to be.

[Radhnoti]

I think Shaolin is pointing out that "truth" is often just perspective...a philosophical point he can defend 'til doomsday. :D

SDIC - "i think you have to define "shaolin" in the context of the statement/claim."

I agree. You're ignoring where the shaolin-do term "grandmaster" originated...or, if you're a skeptic, where SD claims it originated. Shaolin-do uses this title to boost confidence in it's "rightness". "We are only two generations removed from the REAL shaolin temple, and our lineage is of the highest caliber. From the only shaolin grandmaster at the historic temple to his successor, to GM Sin."
Maybe this wasn't touted quite as much at your school...but it's certainly everywhere you look in the organizational literature.

KC - "I think just the supreme authority on Shaolin Do but his knowledge of all things Shaolin is truly astounding."

I agree...which is what makes this so tragic. SD almost certainly has "the truth" from it's perspective. How great it would be, for martial historians if no one else, if you could take the puzzle piece it has and fit it in with all the other pieces.

[Judge Pen]

hehe i think the reason why some here actually "like" me is because they see me as the weird uncle that comes around from time to time, not a threat persay, but just the weird uncle that occasionally rants and raves. Everyone is entertained by the funny uncle:D Your affectionate weird uncle,TWS:o

That's a perfect description! :D

[The Xia]

The Five Elders story doesn't have solid proof. However, the story appears in many lineages and other places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story only appears in Shaolin Do. On top of that, the timeframe that the Su Kong story is said to take place in is different from that of the Five Elders story. The Su Kong story conflicts with the Five Elders story both in timeframe and content. Both cannot be true. Now, niether story has solid proof. However, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do while the Five Elders story is deep in the fabric of Chinese martial arts mythos.

[Judge Pen]

The Five Elders story doesn't have solid proof. However, the story appears in many lineages and other places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story only appears in Shaolin Do. On top of that, the timeframe that the Su Kong story is said to take place in is different from that of the Five Elders story. The Su Kong story conflicts with the Five Elders story both in timeframe and content. Both cannot be true. Now, niether story has solid proof. However, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do while the Five Elders story is deep in the fabric of Chinese martial arts mythos.


True; however, its mythos none-the-less. Su Kong or the 5 Elders do not have to be based in fact for the martial arts that claim lineage through them to be legitimate.

[tattooedmonk]

The Five Elders story doesn't have solid proof. However, the story appears in many lineages and other places. On the other hand, the Su Kong story only appears in Shaolin Do. On top of that, the timeframe that the Su Kong story is said to take place in is different from that of the Five Elders story. The Su Kong story conflicts with the Five Elders story both in timeframe and content. Both cannot be true. Now, niether story has solid proof. However, the Su Kong story is only present in Shaolin Do while the Five Elders story is deep in the fabric of Chinese martial arts mythos. but ..is it possible that the five elders lineage could have been from a lesser known temple in the area of fujian/ fukien that may have been associated with Sil lum?

and that because the workings of the actual Shaolin temple were done in secret that this is why the legend of Su Kong is not known?

and /or that the five elders story was made up just to make claims that they were Shaolin /Sil lum to add credabilty ??

or that maybe just because the five elders were known to be shaolin and because of there geographical location they were associated with Sil lum??

It comes down to this... Is Shaolin Do A real Shaolin Art or is it just borrowing a name to add legitamacy to what they teach?

If anyone who knows anything about CMA and Shaolin would easily be able to tell from the actual forms that it is shaolin.

It is the unknown history / lineage and the outward appearence that has you all f@@ked up??

Forget what has been passed on by lineage and tradition and look at the body of material that Shaolin Do has to offer and you can surely see that it is real Shaolin.

I have 25 years martialarts experince and 15 years in Shaolin Do and I have studied with many masters and I can tell you that Shaolin Do is one of the most comprehensive martial arts in the world because of the large body of material that is taught.

It is only the way that it is taught and practiced that I have issues with.

For example.... rigid format ,out of date teaching methods ,lack of practical sparring ( tag does not teach you how to fight )and application.... As well as the lack of understanding by the instructors about mechanical physics, anatomy/ physiology , etc.

It is the quality of the art that is most important . I believe that too much emphasis is put on learning all this material without any true understanding of what is really going on. why ?? because most people think that to be a better martial artist that they have to have all these forms and all this rank to be good and to get the recognition that they want. Bull Sh** it is all about their ego.

The stuff about the forms....sparring techniques all together are a form, the short forms all together are one form, the breathing and meditation classes are considered a form, all the self defense/ chin na are considered a form..at least this is what I was taught coming up through the system. So you can see that what is considered a form is subjective. As well as the fact that many forms are found in many systems , preying mantis for example, this could be how the total number of forms exceeds 900+.

But a question that I have and no one has ever offered any explanation is..... how come James Holiday wrote in an article about shaolin do back in the 80'S that it stated that Su Kong was a master of only 300+ forms? And yes I understand that 900+ is more than 300+ but why does it make such a drastic increase in the number of forms... seeing as the art supposedly only came from Su Kong through Ie Chang Ming to Master Sin?

Did Ie Chang Ming add forms from other Shaolin masters .Did he make up his own??Did Master Sin do the the same?? chiang su liang su( spear fighting techniques) is of master sin's creation. I know for a fact that many of the forms were created by him.

[ricardocameron]

Did Ie Chang Ming add forms from other Shaolin masters .Did he make up his own??Did Master Sin do the the same?? chiang su liang su( spear fighting techniques) is of master sin's creation. I know for a fact that many of the forms were created by him.

That's what I heard,( or read somewhere), that GM Ie traveled China picking up other forms and leftover Shaol-lin teachings...

[Golden Tiger]

how come James Holiday wrote in an article about shaolin do back in the 80'S that it stated that Su Kong was a master of only 300+ forms?

Welcome back TTM, haven't seen you around in a while. Perhaps you will have to ask Master Halladay (not Holiday). I think as another stated, that forms were added as well as systems along the way, some by Master Ie and some by Master Sin.


I know for a fact that many of the forms were created by him.


Really? which ones?


As well as the lack of understanding by the instructors about mechanical physics, anatomy/ physiology , etc.

While I am not up on my theoretical physics nor do I have a Ph.D in Kinesiology, I would dare to say that most of us instructors know quite a bit.

[Judge Pen]

That's what I heard,( or read somewhere), that GM Ie traveled China picking up other forms and leftover Shaol-lin teachings...

That argument is made because of some language in a letter from Ie to GM Sin The where he states he traveled all over China and Korea learning martial arts (or words to that effect) prior to migrating to Indonesia.

[ricardocameron]

That argument is made because of some language in a letter from Ie to GM Sin The where he states he traveled all over China and Korea learning martial arts (or words to that effect) prior to migrating to Indonesia.

Thanks. That's where i saw it, I remember that letter, now.

[humbleman]

I am Sgt. Lee Tao of the US Marine Force on Monitoring and Peace Keeping Mission in Baghdad-Iraq.
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In the process of torture they confessed being rebels for the late Ayman Al-Zawahiri and took us to a cave in Karbala which served as their camp.
Here we recovered several guns, bombs, and other ammunitions including some boxes among which two contains nuclear weapons, one filled with hard drugs and the other four to my amazement contain some US dollars amounting to $25M after I and two of my intelligent officers counted them.
I however intructed to keep this in high secrecy.
I am in need of a "Reliable and Trustworthy" person like you who would recieve, secure and protect these boxes containing the US dollars for me upon till my assignment elapses here in Iraq.
I assure and promise to give you 20% of this fund.
Please assure me of your keeping this topmost secret to protect my job with the US Monitoring-And-Peace-Keeping-Mission.

Sincere Regards,
Sgt. Chung Lee Tao

[Radhnoti]

It's also been stated that the guy that painted the paintings, who knew his family's bird style, had his style incorporated into SD. A small portion of it is taught to every student at blue belt, and I believe Hiang chose to focus on it.

[humbleman]

There are also three birds taught at second brown. It seems I remember there was supposed to be an early type of pau-qua that was inside of at least one of these forms. I have also heard insinuations that there is a rarely taught form of "linear pau-qua" taught somewhere in Kentucky. Come to think of it, I actually did read an article in one of the kung-fu magazines (hopefully this one!!) about a woman in Kentucky who knew this style. I don't know if she was Shaolin-Do or not, but given the location, it's a good guess. It looked like a hard type of Pau-qua. She surely looked like she knew her business.

[humbleman]

jokingly referred to the blue belt level bird form as "the early bird", being as you had to reach way back in your memory by the time you got to brown to remember it. I also remember that one of the most difficult things about learning the bird forms was telling them apart. They seemed quite similar to each other, but were really completely different. They were swift and graceful, but still packed a wallop.

[kungfujunky]

you start to lear pa kua at first black (i myself have seen 4 differnet ..no 5 different pa kua forms. dragon is by faR my favorite)

hsing yi is second black and above and hung gar (tiger crane) you can see at second black or above but i dont remember when you test over it

[The Xia]

but ..is it possible that the five elders lineage could have been from a lesser known temple in the area of fujian/ fukien that may have been associated with Sil lum?

and that because the workings of the actual Shaolin temple were done in secret that this is why the legend of Su Kong is not known?

and /or that the five elders story was made up just to make claims that they were Shaolin /Sil lum to add credabilty ??

or that maybe just because the five elders were known to be shaolin and because of there geographical location they were associated with Sil lum??
Your conspiracy theory about the Su Kong story being a Shaolin secret is really pulling for strings.

It comes down to this... Is Shaolin Do A real Shaolin Art or is it just borrowing a name to add legitamacy to what they teach?
If Shaolin Do were the real teachings of the southern Shaolin Temple wouldn't the Honan Shaolin Temple be affiliated with them? Wouldn't Shaolin Do be celebrated by the entire Chinese martial arts community?

If anyone who knows anything about CMA and Shaolin would easily be able to tell from the actual forms that it is shaolin.
A bunch of people who do know alot about Chinese martial arts have said just the opposite...

[lunghushan]

Most of the histories of the supposed '5 elders' was from an earlier Shaolin temple, not the supposed second temple like in the Wanham version of the histories. This supposedly was burned in like 1647.

Then there is another one that lists another Shaolin temple in 1723 or something.

Then another one in 1849 or something.

In various versions of the stories Pak Mei is there in all of them. With different '5 elders'. So it stands to reason that the histories are all messed up.

So this is all kindof useless. Why does it matter? It's hard to believe this thread has lasted so long. Why does anybody care?

[Radhnoti]

humbleman, that article about "linear bagua"...I'm 90% certain was from the Ng family organization. The later "shaolin birds" taught in brown aren't part of the Tai Peng bird style. If you look at Hiang's site there are 18 Tai Peng's he teaches, it's interesting SD still teaches "Tai Pang Sin Kune/Big Bird Spreads its Wings" at blue belt, it's supposed to be 1/3 of the full form.

The Xia - "If Shaolin Do were the real teachings of the southern Shaolin Temple wouldn't the Honan Shaolin Temple be affiliated with them? Wouldn't Shaolin Do be celebrated by the entire Chinese martial arts community?"

It's the contention of SD, and many other styles claiming shaolin heritage, that the communist Chinese run Shaolin AND they've stripped most the martial intent from what goes on there. In that light, "official shaolin certification" probably counts for very little if you ask most in SD. On the other hand, SD schools HAVE paid to have the giant markers installed on the temple grounds...north and south, so what do I know? :D

The Xia - "I hear all this talk about people practicing Bagua, Hsing Yi, Hung Gar, etc in Shaolin Do. I don't believe that all these styles are present within it."

You are aware that many kuntao styles, claim to teach Hsing Yi, Bagua, Tai Chi and animal styles? I don't think they (or SD) claim to teach those styles with the depth a school focusing on "just" one style do...

[humbleman]

Radhnoti. That was interesting. As far as Shaolin temple in China goes, I see them treading a tightwire trying to preserve the historic value of the temples themselves. That considered, one can hardly blame them for making the necessary concessions to their government. Better than having the temples closed. From my observations, oppressors of any stripe don't wat the oppressed to learn how to protect themselves and their families. Hopefully, one might say that the temples even being open, despite the commercialization, is a sign of progress from the bad old days of the cultural revolution. I read an article by a young German student who went to Shaolin to study before it was safe to do so. He said that there were many very serious schools around Shaolin, that it was sort of a "Kung Fu Ghetto." Disputes between schools were settled with fists and feet. You only got taught by the Masters in Shaolin if you were referred by one of the Masters outside the gate. The discipline was ferocious. Lapses were dealt with by slaps or worse. He said most western "martial artists" wouldn't hack.

[humbleman]

his name was Jason Bourne. (JUST KIDDING!!!:D ) About the Bourne part. The article by the young German lad was real.

[Baqualin]

I hear all this talk about people practicing Bagua, Hsing Yi, Hung Gar, etc in Shaolin Do. I don't believe that all these styles are present within it.

Students in SD can study only the internal side Tai Chi, Baqua, and Hsing I including weapons....rank is in sashes.:D

[Baqualin]

you start to lear pa kua at first black (i myself have seen 4 differnet ..no 5 different pa kua forms. dragon is by faR my favorite)

hsing yi is second black and above and hung gar (tiger crane) you can see at second black or above but i dont remember when you test over it

7 Baqua forms including weapons......Hsing I is taught as a complete system including weapons and is also second black in the SD internal.

[Learn]

Sin The can appropriately call himself the grandmaster of Shaolin Do. It is his system after all. But to call himself grandmaster of the Shaolin arts is patently ridiculous. Shaolin constitutes numerous systems/approaches/styles. The historical records are so nebulous and full of fantasy that it is impossible to say definitively what "Shaolin" really is. I would proffer that anyone who has studied martial arts for any length of time, regardless of style or system, realizes that the nuances and subtleties of a particular style are incredibly important. It's the difference between learning a technique in a magazine and seeing a highly skilled practioner apply it on you at a seminar. I've been through that with Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, Indonesian, and American styles. What troubles me about SD, although I found it at the right time in my life for what it offered, is that is purports to offer mastery in so many different disciplines. That is just flat out unrealistic. You are not going to master the nuances of all the animals, ba gua, tai ji, hsing i. Reality check, aint' gonna happen. It's enticing, but there aren't enough hours in the day. Ok, I'll play devil's advocate. SD is about giving you an introduction so you can pick a specialty. Who from? Your teacher? He will not have mastered all the styles. So you go outside your school. Ok, but then SD is just a segue into another school. I don't think that is how they market it. I could give a few examples, but suffice to say in each case, when I pursued what I learned in SD at a dedicated school, what I learned in SD was the equivalent of a lunchtime overview seminar.

Again, I do not disparage those who follow the path. I did so myself. If SD improves your life, that is good. I am happy to discuss the philosophical aspects however.

[Baqualin]

Sin The can appropriately call himself the grandmaster of Shaolin Do. It is his system after all. But to call himself grandmaster of the Shaolin arts is patently ridiculous. Shaolin constitutes numerous systems/approaches/styles. The historical records are so nebulous and full of fantasy that it is impossible to say definitively what "Shaolin" really is. I would proffer that anyone who has studied martial arts for any length of time, regardless of style or system, realizes that the nuances and subtleties of a particular style are incredibly important. It's the difference between learning a technique in a magazine and seeing a highly skilled practioner apply it on you at a seminar. I've been through that with Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, Indonesian, and American styles. What troubles me about SD, although I found it at the right time in my life for what it offered, is that is purports to offer mastery in so many different disciplines. That is just flat out unrealistic. You are not going to master the nuances of all the animals, ba gua, tai ji, hsing i. Reality check, aint' gonna happen. It's enticing, but there aren't enough hours in the day. Ok, I'll play devil's advocate. SD is about giving you an introduction so you can pick a specialty. Who from? Your teacher? He will not have mastered all the styles. So you go outside your school. Ok, but then SD is just a segue into another school. I don't think that is how they market it. I could give a few examples, but suffice to say in each case, when I pursued what I learned in SD at a dedicated school, what I learned in SD was the equivalent of a lunchtime overview seminar.

Again, I do not disparage those who follow the path. I did so myself. If SD improves your life, that is good. I am happy to discuss the philosophical aspects however.

Learn, I've always had a facination with the filipino arts of stick & knife fighting, I feel it's very practical on the street and would like to study it someday.
One thing I notice about a lot of people on here is how they rag us for all the material in SD (yes it is to much to MASTER in american society as a whole), but they seem to be experts on every style you could imagine....you have studied alot of styles including ours.....are you a master of all or even one yet. I don't think you claim that...just pointing things out. SD is not for everybody...no particular style is. Yes we make alot of claims....but isn't mastery of a style ones own path....I know of no Master or Grand Master who did not study under more than one teacher. Sometimes in SD students can't see the forest for the trees...we do have alot of upper level Masters who specialize in a particular style.....they may not be in the same school, but the're in the system and I see more of this as the years go by. Yes, some have studied elsewhere......some before SD...some while in SD, and some have left and come back....is that not the Shaolin Way.

[Baqualin]

I could give a few examples, but suffice to say in each case, when I pursued what I learned in SD at a dedicated school, what I learned in SD was the equivalent of a lunchtime overview seminar.


Was your teacher a Master? East or West?

[godzillakungfu]

Students in SD can study only the internal side Tai Chi, Baqua, and Hsing I including weapons....rank is in sashes.:D
East and San Jose are set up like this, the rest of the West coast is not.

[godzillakungfu]

7 Baqua forms including weapons......Hsing I is taught as a complete system including weapons and is also second black in the SD internal.Not complete as of yet. Hsing I Sword just came out recently. There are forms present in all systems(that I've researched) that are missing in SD Hsing-I.

So Far.:D

[Baqualin]

Not complete as of yet. Hsing I Sword just came out recently. There are forms present in all systems(that I've researched) that are missing in SD Hsing-I.

So Far.:D

Don't forget Hsing I Staff.:D

[Baqualin]

Not complete as of yet. Hsing I Sword just came out recently. There are forms present in all systems(that I've researched) that are missing in SD Hsing-I.

So Far.:D

I should have said the most complete GMS has taught to date ( Baqua would be 2nd) in the internal side....I'm sure there will always be systems that have forms we don't and vice versa.:)

[Baqualin]

The Xia don't worry if their bagwa is anything like what I learned in CMD then it is not real and actually can do damage to your body because it is practiced so incorrectly.

As far as the linear bagwa, isn't it a coincidenc that there was an article about linear bagwa in a kung fu magazine recently? Gee maybe we can buy the DVD or book and learn the moves and say we teach linear bagwa!!

It is one thing to learn a move but another to understand the concepts and principles behind it.

When you slam us please do your research & read previous post.....GSM hasn't taught linear Baqua "YET". The First Baqua form taught in SD can be traced back to Chiang Jung-Ch'iao a student of Chang Chao-Tung, who was a direct student of Tung Hai-Ch'uan. We're taught the 64 rules...breathing patterns....applications....training sets....fighting techniques, and proper biomechanics. You are right, if not done properly Baqua or any internal form can tear your body down....if done properly it will strengthen bones, joints and muscles. I have torn up knees (from the external side) and a bad lower back, yet I can still hold my own with the younger guys.....my knees and back rarely bother me anymore and I attribute that to 28 years of practicing Baqua. we teach alot of Seniors in our internal classes and you better teach them correct postures and movements or they will drop like flies.

[tattooedmonk]

Welcome back TTM, haven't seen you around in a while. Perhaps you will have to ask Master Halladay (not Holiday). I think as another stated, that forms were added as well as systems along the way, some by Master Ie and some by Master Sin.




Really? which ones?



While I am not up on my theoretical physics nor do I have a Ph.D in Kinesiology, I would dare to say that most of us instructors know quite a bit.thanx..

yeah I messed that up thanx for the correction ...

I figured most of this out along the way( my own investigations and common sense)..but for some reason DS & SS seemed to not reveal certain information or did not know certain things that I asked about or had some pretty questionable answers along the way

chiang su liang su ( spear fighting techniques) story goes( as per DS & SS )that master sin created it for his 3rd black test.

. you do not need a degree..... but having the knowledge is helpful..... many instructors do know a great deal in these areas ...many do not

[tattooedmonk]

I hear all this talk about people practicing Bagua, Hsing Yi, Hung Gar, etc in Shaolin Do. I don't believe that all these styles are present within it.maybe if you studied the art up close instead of judge from afar you would see and believe....

[tattooedmonk]

Your conspiracy theory about the Su Kong story being a Shaolin secret is really pulling for strings.

If Shaolin Do were the real teachings of the southern Shaolin Temple wouldn't the Honan Shaolin Temple be affiliated with them? Wouldn't Shaolin Do be celebrated by the entire Chinese martial arts community?

A bunch of people who do know alot about Chinese martial arts have said just the opposite... did I say conspiracy?? for all we really know it was created as a tool to teach the art to Sin The ( and others).....( who cares ??).

Shaolin Do is a collection from all the Shaolin Temples not just the southern temple.....there are tablets at both temples to celebrate Shaolin Do's connections to the temple...

many people, because of the vitually unknown history and because of the chinese peoples way of saving face, do not want to believe or accept Shaolin Do as being the real deal because if they did.... they would have to admit that what they know and promote is just a small portion of what shaolin really is and consequently would lose face

and the reason this is because of the outward appearence of the art and the virtually unknown history/ lineage..

.....like I have said before it is not the forms that are in question it is the way that they are taught, practiced ,and performed

do you not realize how much this affects the human psyche?

you are so use to knowing a certain history, seeing it performed a certain way, and in a certain uniform that you can not get passed it mentally to look at the Shaolin Do with from an unbiased perspective and see it for what it truely is ...

and that is The Way of Shaolin......

[The Willow Sword]

SD's bagua is a very watered down form of Emei style bagua. im my opinion it was prolly taken from a book or from an old video that is no longer around from a bagua master that is no longer around. The Hsing I that SD Teaches would be as close to something SOLID there than anything else they profess to have mastered. But Hsing-i is such a common Style and VERY EASY to copy that ANYONE could take it from other source and make it their own.

you know i have a video tape of the Snake bagua that was taught out by GMS and i gotta tell ya. it is so rigid and karate'esque and done as rigid and as karate'esque as it looks. there is no flow to the movements at all. very choppy indeed and not indicitive of what bagua really is. I have seen some authentic snake bagua and i gotta tell ya what SD teaches is something else.

And i agree with Maxwang about doing the bagua incorrectly and it damaging you.

and dont even get me started with the tablet at the temple, ANYONE with enough MONEY and influence can get a tablet erected there at the temple and that is what the soards paid for to honor GMT. That tabelt wasnt put up by the temple on their own.

anyway since the discussion turned to the internal side of the SD curriculum, i thought i would chime in with my impressions of it since i spent a good # of years doing it there.

i would say that SD has very watered down versions of all three internal systems. when i started to branch out and saw some of the TCMA schools that taught out taichi and bagua i realized that the sd method is very mediocre at best. with exception to the Hsing-I there (which i enjoyed doing while i was there) everything else in the internal curriculumn is crap, in my opinion. Now the CSC run by the Soards have a different version of the tai chi styles and i noticed it right off the bat when i trained with them for a short period of time in New Mexico(seminar). again an inconsistancy of the schools to have so many different versions of everything that you cannot go to one sd school and see the same thing.
now the only other form there at Sd that i actually liked aside from the hsing yi was the "buddha fist form". dont know where they got it from but i will admit it is a decent form to learn.

hehe just go to SD and learn the hsing i and the buddha fist form and then leave and you will have the best that they can Truely offer you. :D
TWS

[Baqualin]

SD's bagua is a very watered down form of Emei style bagua. im my opinion it was prolly taken from a book or from an old video that is no longer around from a bagua master that is no longer around. The Hsing I that SD Teaches would be as close to something SOLID there than anything else they profess to have mastered. But Hsing-i is such a common Style and VERY EASY to copy that ANYONE could take it from other source and make it their own.

you know i have a video tape of the Snake bagua that was taught out by GMS and i gotta tell ya. it is so rigid and karate'esque and done as rigid and as karate'esque as it looks. there is no flow to the movements at all. very choppy indeed and not indicitive of what bagua really is. I have seen some authentic snake bagua and i gotta tell ya what SD teaches is something else.

And i agree with Maxwang about doing the bagua incorrectly and it damaging you.

and dont even get me started with the tablet at the temple, ANYONE with enough MONEY and influence can get a tablet erected there at the temple and that is what the soards paid for to honor GMT. That tabelt wasnt put up by the temple on their own.

anyway since the discussion turned to the internal side of the SD curriculum, i thought i would chime in with my impressions of it since i spent a good # of years doing it there.

i would say that SD has very watered down versions of all three internal systems. when i started to branch out and saw some of the TCMA schools that taught out taichi and bagua i realized that the sd method is very mediocre at best. with exception to the Hsing-I there (which i enjoyed doing while i was there) everything else in the internal curriculumn is crap, in my opinion. Now the CSC run by the Soards have a different version of the tai chi styles and i noticed it right off the bat when i trained with them for a short period of time in New Mexico(seminar). again an inconsistancy of the schools to have so many different versions of everything that you cannot go to one sd school and see the same thing.
now the only other form there at Sd that i actually liked aside from the hsing yi was the "buddha fist form". dont know where they got it from but i will admit it is a decent form to learn.

hehe just go to SD and learn the hsing i and the buddha fist form and then leave and you will have the best that they can Truely offer you. :D
TWS
Hey Willow,
As I stated above...The First Baqua form taught in SD can be traced back to Chiang Jung-Ch'iao a student of Chang Chao-Tung, who was a direct student of Tung Hai-Ch'uan. We're taught the 64 rules...breathing patterns....applications....training sets....fighting techniques, and proper biomechanics. It is not a watered down version of an Emei form...it's move for move Chiang's form, research it, he called it his original form it's a very common form. If you have ever seen some of Bok Nam Park's forms, he has some that are very close to our Snake Baqua (if done correctly Snake is strictly for training fa-jing). If you had learned it I think you would still love it....... it's very powerful & a heck of a work out. Is your tape GSM or somebody trying to do Snake? Once again I'm sorry for your experiences with SD...it's not like that here, I don't know how you were taught, but apparently you missed alot. The forms from books thing is getting a little old...I know GSM as well as anybody and if you've seen what I've seen you would realize he's the real deal. Anyway good luck with your internal and thanks for the kind words about Hsing I & Budda Fist.:D

[Baqualin]

TWS
I have seen some authentic snake bagua and i gotta tell ya what SD teaches is something else.

Do you realize how many different Snake Baqua forms are out there?
By the way your Best Baqua video ever was awesome!;)