Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[godzillakungfu]

thanx..
chiang su liang su ( spear fighting techniques) story goes( as per DS & SS )that master sin created it for his 3rd black test.
There are 2 for sure and maybe a third that Were said to be created by GMT.

Not saying anything since all forms were created by someone. Just that it was said by the heads of the West.

[The Xia]

Look, there are individuals that dedicate their entire lives to mastering just one of the arts you claim is present in Shaolin Do. Are there people who have mastered more then one style? Of course. But you can't just take 2 hour long classes for 3 days a week for 5 years and be masters of Hung Gar, Bagua, Hsing Yi, Tai Chi, Hua Chuan (when you say "Hua", I'm assuming you mean Hua Chuan). It's ridiculous. Where is the proof that these styles are truelly present within Shaolin Do? Sure, you may have some forms, but are they done right? Do you have any videos of Shaolin Doka doing Hung Gar forms at the same level of quality as someone like Lau Kar Leung?

[Learn]

Baqualin, yes Kali is a fantastic and very real world oriented art. But like CMA, there are many ****xxng contests about which approach is the best. I have studied many arts, but I would not say that I have mastered any one of them. I have found some more realistic than others. The problem I have with SD is that it says if you study SD, you will learn animals, tai ji, ba gua, hsing i, weapons, etc. etc. I followed the path for awhle and learned alot, but it realy is not possible to learn the nuances of all those different arts in one lifetime. You may learn quite alot in SD, but the marketing falls short of reality, and I have ethical concerns with that. It may well have to do with how martial arts were marketed in the seventies, and Sin The did not progress beyond that. It may be a cultural thing. But if you step back and ask, will my teacher be able to teach me mastery of the animals and all the internal arts, I think you will find your answer. At one point, I wished it so, but reality has taught me otherwise.

[The Xia]

BTW Xia what proof would you like ?

I already said


Do you have any videos of Shaolin Doka doing Hung Gar forms at the same level of quality as someone like Lau Kar Leung?

[lunghushan]

I'm not gonna believe in SD's story until they provide video documentary and proof of the training of every grandmaster all the way back past the hairy guy to movies showing his grandmasters training at Shaolin.

And then they'll also have to provide documentary showing all the forms of their system, how they fit in with other Chinese forms, and why they're superior than other Chinese systems.

And all their fighters start winning UFCs and Pride on a regular basis.

Then, maybe then, I'll buy their stories.

;)

[godzillakungfu]

I know Hung Gardokas that don't move like LKL.

Sorry, that just is a poor comparison. I think you left out an important word.

Anyway, I saw one of his top American students, in a video, on another website. The guy moved well but, he was nowhere near LKL's level.

So, does that invalidate Hung Gar as a whole? No.

[BigZib]

The animal and mastering of an art is not found by going to a class. It is found through hardship and training. I feel those of you who look for a master of an art have unrealistic expectations and to say a form is not "right " is nonsense. As far as TWS is concerned I wish he would find the peace he deserves but here he just tries to get some to bite it has all been said too many times. So drop it and kick the dust off your sandals and go to the next town. BTW Xia what proof would you like ? KC

now this is the truth and thats all i can say

[The Xia]

I know Hung Gardokas that don't move like LKL.

Sorry, that just is a poor comparison. I think you left out an important word.

Anyway, I saw one of his top American students, in a video, on another website. The guy moved well but, he was nowhere near LKL's level.

So, does that invalidate Hung Gar as a whole? No.
Your arguement doesn't work. Sure, of course not all Hung Gar practioners are as skilled as masters like Lau Kar Leung. However, many are skilled and all who have what it takes and study under a good Sifu can become like Lau Kar Leung.
Where are the Shaolin Doka who's Hung Gar forms can match that of great Hung Gar masters?

As for "Hung Gar Doka", that's just not funny. Shaolin Doka makes sense because Do is a Japanese word.

[The Willow Sword]

The First Baqua form taught in SD can be traced back to Chiang Jung-Ch'iao a student of Chang Chao-Tung, who was a direct student of Tung Hai-Ch'uan.

ok so now tell me how chang chao-tung or whomever was a student of his who came to the southern shaolin temple to teach this to the alleged "Su Kong" and then to Ie chang ming?

see the trouble with tracing anything that SD claims as their own pure transmission of the pure and true shaolin is very sketchy at best and it keeps on being debated here with the holes in this particular history being filled with,,,,,,,well its being filled with something and i can tell ya it isnt sweet smelling.

bagualin i can respect your fondness for what you are learning, but when you begin to see the light like i did(with the help of good people willing to enlighten me to some things) then you will be opened up to a whole new world that isnt so boxed in like the SD mindset apparently is. of course my contention has always been that if you misrepresent yourself and ride the coattail of something else to further your own schemes then it doesnt matter How good your system is or how well you are as a martial artist in the eyes of that community. I had to find that out the very hard way when branching out to teach what i thought was something solid and good and being shunned away, disrespected and laughed at directly in my face when i mentioned those two infamous words, Shaolin-Do.

most of you may not be able to really understand how something like that feels, especially when YOU are trying to start a career and a buisness of your own, but when it hits you it hits you hard. I never wanted to be an elitest and be so contained within SD despite the "most comprehensive MA in the world" claims.
it seems as though the rest of the TCMA community has a respect for one another regardless of maybe a few sketchy instances of rivalry.

Kwaichang speaks of the "peace that i deserve". but what about the solidarity and the freedom i attained when i finally left the school? i can take some consolation that i attained some peace out of the deal but still working through the difficulties of feeling swindled shafted and pretty much let down by my teacher and others whom i thought were good friends. in the end you only have yourself to look after, and i made the mistake of depending on a community of people whom i thought shared that sense of honor integrity and community and who supported their students/disciples/instructors etc etc, when i supported THEM and was LOYAL to them and did everything that was required of me and THEN SOME. This may have been prevalent in other Sd schools but surely not at the austin school. it seemed like we were only furthering the austin school's teacher's future rather than our own as a whole. as long as the money flowed and the students kept coming, everything was all hunkey Dorey. Now some may disagree with what i am saying but this is how i experienced things first hand at SD.
I gained the respect of alot of people at that school, people i taught and helped through their tough times physically, so it hurt to leave when i did.
sometimes i run into old students from there who recognize me and say "you know i really enjoyed your classes, you helped me out a great deal". That is the PEACE and the Solidarity that i deserve which, in my book, is better than any aknowledgement from any higher up elder in the system.
im sharing this with you all to really give you an insight as to what really goes on in schools like SD that make all these claims but cannot really back them, schools like this who seemingly brainwash good people in to thinking that they are getting some rare thing when all it is is watered down garbage, and when those loyal followers try to stand up for what they are learning and challenge others who may discount what they are learning and get NO support from their school. Schools like this one that permeate with favoritism and nepotism and look highly upon some and look down on others. Did i wish to be put on a pedestal at the school? absolutely not. did i wish to be or felt like i was the best fighter at the school? absolutely not. did i feel like i was the best teacher at sd and wished to subvert my teacher? ABSOLUTELY NOT, despite what some may think.

it is a long process coming to terms with 8 years going down the drain and to no real fault of your own but having the rug pulled out from under you by those with whom you put your trust in.
it is this reason why i stand up against SD and despite what some may contest about the research i have done to discount the history claims by pointing out the obvious fabrications inthe lineage. to point out as other have the incorrect way that a TCMA is taught out there.
People do not care about all these things, because everyone seems to be a mile wide and an inch deep and only want the surface of what they spend their hard earned dollar to learn. well thats fine i guess, if all you are wanting to learn is how to fight. you can do that anywhere really, you can do it out on the street if that is your PRIMARY interest(and would prolly be alot more beneficial for you if you didnt get yourself killed or worse).

I guess that is all for now. excuse the rambling. this forum is made just for that.

i DO, in all Honesty, commend those who vehemently defend their school regardless. You guys remind me of ME back in simpler more naive times. You know sometimes i wish i never KNEW about this forum, Or about anything else regarding this d@mn website. My life would probably be easier in the bliss of ignorance.
Peace,TWS

[godzillakungfu]

Anyway, I saw one of his top American students, in a video, on another website. The guy moved well but, he was nowhere near LKL's level.


Your arguement doesn't work. Sure, of course not all Hung Gar practioners are as skilled as masters like Lau Kar Leung.

Okay so we agree here. So, I guess you made my point for me thank you.



However, many are skilled and all who have what it takes and study under a good Sifu can become like Lau Kar Leung.


So, does that invalidate Hung Gar as a whole? No.

Wow so we agree here also that Hung Gar can't be critiqued on one student. It is still a valid art.


The Hung Gardoka upset you. Look at all the reactions from SD members to your questions. For the most part your insults, ribbing, and demands have been met. Yet, one little Hung gardoka and your comprehension skills go out the window.

[The Xia]

And still there is no response to this...

Where are the Shaolin Doka who's Hung Gar forms can match that of great Hung Gar masters?

[godzillakungfu]

And still there is no response to this... Well you changed the question so that is part of your problem.
No one is claiming to be a Hung Gar master are they?

[The Xia]

Well you changed the question so that is part of your problem.
The question was not changed. I quoted from one of my previous posts. It's right smack in the middle of it.

Your arguement doesn't work. Sure, of course not all Hung Gar practioners are as skilled as masters like Lau Kar Leung. However, many are skilled and all who have what it takes and study under a good Sifu can become like Lau Kar Leung.
Where are the Shaolin Doka who's Hung Gar forms can match that of great Hung Gar masters?

As for "Hung Gar Doka", that's just not funny. Shaolin Doka makes sense because Do is a Japanese word.


By the way Xia lets see one of your forms on thje web and I mean you not someone you know.
No. That will not accomplish anything. What I do has no relevance to this discussion. What does have relevance to this conversation is videos of Shaolin Doka. If there are no Shaolin Doka that can match the quality of great Gong Fu masters then that speaks for itself.

[Yao Sing]

You know I don't mean to be stirring the pot but you would think with the number of SD schools, teachers and students that there would be someone they could put forward as the SD poster boy (or girl) to showcase their quality.

Now I know most like to think they have nothing to prove, which in most cases is true, but considering the crap that SD gets from the MA community at large I think it would be in their best interest to 'show off' a little.

So, is there a Hero of Shaolin Do?

[Learn]

It really boils down to the nuances. I have studied many arts and been to many seminars. Allow me to use the seminars as an example. Have you ever been to a seminar of a different style where a technique/drill was demonstrated. You and your partner started practicing and you thought, ok, I've got this. Then perhaps you approached an assistant instructor who showed you all the small nuances that really made the technique work despite resistance of an uncooperative opponent? I did it just today. Done it before. It is the nuances that make an art/style effective. To think that you will learn the nuances of tai ji, ba gua, hsing i, tiger, snake, etc effective by studying the forms in SD is unrealistic. Sure, it's a feel good thing when you can do all those forms, but the forms are worthless without the nuances and the rest of the structure. Styles are schools of thought. You don't learn by reading the syllabus.

[lunghushan]

Whaddya talking about 'newonces'???

Are you trying to tell me I won't get a decent martial arts education at Oom Yung Doe or Shaolin Do???

Who wudda thunk that? Who wudda known?

Next you'll try to tell me that Pro-fassional wrestling ain't the real thang!!!!!!!!!

[lunghushan]

Anyway at least Shaolin-Do does a lot of sparring, right? A lot of schools don't even have much sparring.

[kungfujunky]

No. That will not accomplish anything. What I do has no relevance to this discussion. What does have relevance to this conversation is videos of Shaolin Doka. If there are no Shaolin Doka that can match the quality of great Gong Fu masters then that speaks for itself.



you want to compare students of this day and age with jobs and families and a hundred other responsibilities that can only spend 3-4 days working out 1-3+ hours each day to kung fu masters that devoted their entire lives to an art?

how is that going to work?

you bet if there is a student who can devote 8 hours a day for 15-20 years they will look sharp as all get out

but thats just not a possibility in this day and age.

you are making unreasonable claims. if you think that is a reasonable request then please list the art you study how many years you've devoted and then please also show a comparison video with you doing a form and a true master performing the same form. if you can indeed match the master then my argument is shot down and i humbly apologize.

the fact of the matter is though that you cant/wont do so. so why should anyone else regardless of their style?

i will gladly video myself doing forms and post them if you will in fact do the same. and i am only a first black so im sure i will get ripped apart but ill still do it.

as a matter of fact i have a couple drunken forms that i would love to work on and get down better for a video session.

just lmk!

[The Xia]

The fact is Hung Gar has quite a few great masters.
Choy Lay Fut also has great masters that can match the quality of Hung Gar greats. Are there Shaolin Doka who are on this level? That is what you must answer. The proof is in the pudding.
My skill and what I do is not relevant. What does it take for you to grasp this concept?

[Yao Sing]

Yeah, I hate it when peeps deflect focus from from the topic at hand and redirect to the questioner. Poor way to bail out of answering.

The question is the ability and skills of SD peeps, not The Xia. Sure I'd like to see his stuff but whether he's any good or not has little bearing on the abilities of SD folk since he isn't one of them.

[BentMonk]

The fact is Hung Gar has quite a few great masters.
Choy Lay Fut also has great masters that can match the quality of Hung Gar greats. Are there Shaolin Doka who are on this level? That is what you must answer. The proof is in the pudding.
My skill and what I do is not relevant. What does it take for you to grasp this concept?

Dude you have made what you do relevant by your request. If your argument holds water you should be able to compare yourself to a master of your style and illustrate your own point. The fact that you're dodging makes the foundation of your argument shaky. I train at a SD school that does not tout the whole "authentic Shaolin" thing very much at all. We train hard, and we train right. I can, and have used what I've learned...it works just fine. As you said, "the proof is in the pudding." Peace. :)

[kungfujunky]

you are demanding others put themselves out there on display while you haughtily refuse any need to do so yourself.

where are these hung gar students that are so great?

there are shaolin do students who are exceptional martial artists...but why come on here to show it when people like you will just scoff no matter how good they are?

you are hung up on 1 saying in our system and that is where all of your bias comes from.

we are the most comprehensive martial art out there.
no other style will expose you to how much material and knowledge as this one.

no other style will expose you to so many varied and incredible systems.

we dont claim to be the end all be all of every system. we claim to be the most comprehensive.

this is a fact.

we dont claim to produce hung gar or mantis masters. we claim to show you hung gar and mantis and let you spend as much or as little time on those systems as YOU want.

we dont feel the need to make a poster boy/girl to promote our style. we ask that you come watch a class or 2 and try us out for a month. if you dont like then move on.

there are over 10,000 students worldwide who study our style. if we are so deplorable then dont you think those people or a major majority would go elsewhere. our system has great benefit for those that stick with it.

why else would so many study what we offer?

you want to see someone do our material go to a class.

[BentMonk]

Yeah, I hate it when peeps deflect focus from from the topic at hand and redirect to the questioner. Poor way to bail out of answering.

The question is the ability and skills of SD peeps, not The Xia. Sure I'd like to see his stuff but whether he's any good or not has little bearing on the abilities of SD folk since he isn't one of them.

Asking The Xia to post himself isn't about gauging his skill. You're right that isn't relevant. What is relevant as another poster pointed out, is the fact that it is unrealistic to expect anyone who trains and has a life to bear any resemblance to a master who does nothing but train. The Xia is simply being asked to do what he's asking to be done. This is not deflecting attention. It is showing an obvious flaw in his original unrealistic request. :D

[The Xia]

I never asked to see what you can do. I'm talking about masters. Hung Gar has plenty. Are there Shaolin Doka that match the quality of these said masters?

Lets put it this way. If styles like Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, etc have masters that tower over anything Shaolin Do has, what does that say about Shaolin Do? ;)

Still don't get it?

Here is a video of a Bak Mei master.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAw3UofFo4A
I made a thread with this video on the Southern Kung Fu Forum.

Is there anyone in Shaolin Do that can match the quality of this?

[kungfujunky]

there are a number of shaolin do and csc masters that can match that you bet.

that seems to be a short set. whats the training level of a set like that?

[kungfujunky]

You are forgeting Tatooed Monkey! He practices like 23 hours a day and sleeps in his mind and is a full modern day Shaolin Monk. Surely someone who practics evert day 8 hrs and mind practices and admonishes those who do not follow his path could put up a challenge to "move like the old masters"?

And if you are a black sash then you should be awesome and have absolutely no problem displaying movement?

Kungfujunky, Can I ask you how long did it take you to pay for, I mean earn your black sash and how much did it cost you?

And bye the way I am not trying to be demeaning or disrespectful because I am sure you and Tatooedmonk are very dedicated and sincere to CMA but you should put your energy in a more suitable lineage, schools, system whatever but not SD.



and what rank are you oh wise one?

pfftt

i can most certainly hold my own in a fight sir and will gladly meet for a friendly spar to prove i am not a buy your black martial artist.

and why compare me to tatooedmonk? i dont agree with him either so im no friend of his.

also i never said i was not good at my material. but i am no master of kung fu yet. nor do i claim to be. but i am willing to tape myself so there is a level of confidence to what i know. i work hard at it.

csc gives me what i want. i can fight and i train hard. i have incredible power and focus and i get better every day. what else is there to get out of your cma school?

you said you dont mean to be disresepectful but thats all you were being.

[Citong Shifu]

you are demanding others put themselves out there on display while you haughtily refuse any need to do so yourself.

where are these hung gar students that are so great?

there are shaolin do students who are exceptional martial artists...but why come on here to show it when people like you will just scoff no matter how good they are?

you are hung up on 1 saying in our system and that is where all of your bias comes from.

we are the most comprehensive martial art out there.
no other style will expose you to how much material and knowledge as this one.

no other style will expose you to so many varied and incredible systems.

we dont claim to be the end all be all of every system. we claim to be the most comprehensive.

this is a fact.

we dont claim to produce hung gar or mantis masters. we claim to show you hung gar and mantis and let you spend as much or as little time on those systems as YOU want.

we dont feel the need to make a poster boy/girl to promote our style. we ask that you come watch a class or 2 and try us out for a month. if you dont like then move on.

there are over 10,000 students worldwide who study our style. if we are so deplorable then dont you think those people or a major majority would go elsewhere. our system has great benefit for those that stick with it.

why else would so many study what we offer?

you want to see someone do our material go to a class.


I'm not as focused on the shaolin do lineage or such claims as most of you, but the claim "that SD is the most comprehensive martial arts out there" is a bit of a stretch, not to mention, bold.... How does SD actually know that their the most comprehensive? Is it because they offer 900 forms or 20 styles (however many there r)? Comprehensive - refers to a state of "deep knowledge" not an overview of something.... what does it mean to be or say " the most comprehensive martial arts or kung fu program"? Both terms - martial arts and kung fu are used generically as a description, neither reflect a particular style or a particular skill... So, where does comprehensive come into play?

These type of claims open the doors to questions such as mine and others that appear on this board. I cant believe SD would down play others styles/systems by claiming to be the only of its type - most comprehensive -. I've read this statement on every SD website I've seen and throughout alot of posts on this thread.... We too have a very comprehensive system, shaolin system at that, but I'm not hear to debate SD's shaolin lineage. Just interested how SD can claim such knowledge superiority over other CMA systems... Remember, the key word here is "comprehensive" not collection.....

PS. Would the SD people please provide me with outside resources/information concerning the shaolin styles they teach other than the original styles of; shaolin quan, shaolin louhan quan, and shaolin di shu quan (ground fighting or dog style)... I had seen some posts on this thread about some other shaolin styles I was curious about.... Please omit styles such as HG, CLF, etc since they were not created at shaolin. I'm just interested in the shaolin temple created styles... Thanks...

Sifu Ron...

[godzillakungfu]

The question was not changed. I quoted from one of my previous posts. It's right smack in the middle of it.
.

Yes, you have changed the question 3 times now. Yes, what you do does have relevance to how you are answered. If you don't see that it is on you.

[The Xia]

Yes, you have changed the question 3 times now.
Where is this so called triple question change?
I restated the same thing several times (in different words) but that's it.
Here is yet another version of the question from a previous post.

Choy Lay Fut also has great masters that can match the quality of Hung Gar greats. Are there Shaolin Doka who are on this level? That is what you must answer. The proof is in the pudding.

As for the comment quoted below.

Yes, what you do does have relevance to how you are answered. If you don't see that it is on you.
What I do has no relevance to this discussion. What is relevant is Shaolin Do. Asking about me is pointless. It seems like a sign of desperation. Anotherwords, if someone is losing a debate he may start to focus on the person talking rather then his points. Knowing what I do has no bearing on what is being discussed.

[BigZib]

#!$@^%(^&*)&*(^*^@#$!@$

[Baqualin]

Ok sorry do not get too upset. I do respect you for your practice and "gong fu". I am merely trying to challenge the SD regime. I do not agree with it. You know Wushu is an art that we all share. But there will always be contention among styles lineages etc.. I just want you to know that SD is not true CMA and never will be. You will learn good bascis, good fighting, but not the real "stuff" of CMA. When you leave SD and find a real CMA teacher you will see and appreciate it as I did.

No disrespect and I am sorry for my sarcasm.

Oh and I am a black belt in Tae Kwon do and Hap Ki Do and Black Sash in Kung Fu. Not that this means anything but you asked???

Give me the reasons you think SD is not a true CMA.

[Baqualin]

WS,
ok so now tell me how chang chao-tung or whomever was a student of his who came to the southern shaolin temple to teach this to the alleged "Su Kong" and then to Ie chang ming?


I've been in SD for over thirty years and no one ever told me not even GSM, that ever single form in our system came from Su Kong or even Ie chang ming, that's just the legend of our lineage....when GMS first started he also studied with Grand master Ie's comtemporaries before moving in with him full time. It's known that Grand master Ie didn't just lie dormant and picked up new material through the years just like any other martial artist...not from books but from other masters just like all the other chinese masters have done and still do. Don't get me wrong Willow, I'm very upset with the politic's in SD, thats where the problem lies...but that's what happens when an organization gets as large as SD has grown to be...that's why you see the variations in forms and training methods....everyone has there take on the way it should be. I'm lucky to be in a SD school that only cares about the art. Peace!

[godzillakungfu]

Where is this so called triple question change?
I restated the same thing several times (in different words) but that's it.
Here is yet another version of the question from a previous post.

Another version does equal a change. I know you hate being wrong I understand. It went from LKL to Masters to HG masters. That does change the gist of your question.





What I do has no relevance to this discussion. What is relevant is Shaolin Do. Asking about me is pointless. It seems like a sign of desperation. Anotherwords, if someone is losing a debate he may start to focus on the person talking rather then his points. Knowing what I do has no bearing on what is being discussed.
Who is asking about you? I surely didn't.

[tattooedmonk]

I think that the XIA needs to put up or shut up...you spend all this time being judgemental without even seeing the art first hand and veyet to show us what real shaolin/ kungfu is...... so ..... what are you going to do now?? put up or shut up!!!

[The Xia]

I think that the XIA needs to put up or shut up...you spend all this time being judgemental without even seeing the art first hand and veyet to show us what real shaolin/ kungfu is...... so ..... what are you going to do now?? put up or shut up!!!
Are you kidding me? :rolleyes:
Hung Gar is real Gong Fu. Lung Ying is real Gong Fu. Bak Siu Lam is real Gong Fu. I can go on and on...


Another version does equal a change. I know you hate being wrong I understand. It went from LKL to Masters to HG masters. That does change the gist of your question.
You don't get it do you?
It doesn't matter if I'm using Lau Kar Leung or any other real Gong Fu masters as examples. The fact is this, I'm talking about real Gong Fu masters. Are there any Shaolin Doka that match up to them?


Who is asking about you? I surely didn't.
Alot of people have been asking about me. All you have to do is read through the posts.

[godzillakungfu]

You don't get it do you?
It doesn't matter if I'm using Lau Kar Leung or any other real Gong Fu masters as examples. The fact is this, I'm talking about real Gong Fu masters. Are there any Shaolin Doka that match up to them?Actually, you don't "get it.". It is actually pretty funny. You keep telling me to read the thread when you obviously haven't read any of my earlier posts.

Show us videos of LKL doing kung fu. Yet, be very careful with what you produce.



Alot of people have been asking about me. All you have to do is read through the posts.None of those people are me. You quoted me then said what you do doesn't matter. Then you brought up videos when addressing my points.

[BlueTravesty]

I don't mind the fact that SD teaches a large body of material. I think that is what makes it unique among Kung Fu styles.

I just don't get how we're supposed to take it at face value that SD practitioners know and perform, say, Chen style Taiji better than Chen Xiaowang (yes, he does low stances. Why? IT'S CHEN STYLE!!! NOT WU STYLE!) and are frowned upon for questioning this. Chen Xiaowang has devoted the better part of his life to the pursuit and perfection of Chen Taiji. For SD Chen Taiji is a form to learn in time to collect another form (despite the fact that Chen Taiji, and Taiji in general did not originate in a temple. Shaolin or otherwise.)

Why would anyone have a problem with someone saying that Hung Gar practitioners understand Tiger Crane better than SD practitioners? Why would anyone on the Hung Gar side of the fence take this as a major point? No one on either side should hold that expectation. Hung Gar focuses on Tiger Crane as a crucial part of their system, while SD says "OK, here's Tiger Crane. Finish that and it's time to learn another style with a totally disparate body structure and approach to fighting."

I don't doubt that an SD practitioner who learns Mantis and trains diligently, and has a good teacher could glean some rudimentary fighting concepts from it. But he/she will never understand Mantis as well as someone who has been learning Mantis throughout their entire Martial Arts pursuit (whether it's Seven Star, Mei Hua, LiuHe, Taiji Mantis, or 8 step.) Unless that SD person has only been going through the motions on everything else and focuses only on their Mantis, or the Seven Star/Whatever Mantis practitioner doesn't practice very much/at all, it simply is not possible.

[Flying-Monkey]

It is apparent that Xia does not have skill otherwise he would be more than willing to post a form of himself doing it. He wants to know if the practitioners of SD can compare to the masters he listed. Well the answer is yes if you are comparing Master against Master. However the people that are posting on this forum to my knowledge are not masters therefore it would be an unfair comparison. So if the Master of Hung Gar he listed compared against a master in the SD system then his form would probably appear "better". But I am sure the SD Master would be skilled as well. He / She would be able to perform the HUA the Tang Lang and other forms of the system at a higher level than the other guy so this comparison would prove nothing . TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION , THE POST OF THE MASTER YOU POSTED WAS GOOD BUT I HAVE SEEN JUST AS GOOD FROM PRACTIONERS OF SD. KC:)

Do you know who Nica de Koenigswarter was? she was a jazz enthusiast back in the day. She frequently went to the jazz clubs in the north east. She was good friends with Charlie Parker, Thelonious Monk and many others. She could tell you who was playing, what they were playing, what instrument they were playing and what key they were playing. However, she couldn't play herself.

I think it doesn't matter if Xia can do it or not. It matters if what he states is true or not. You feel it is not, so you should attack what he is stating.

You know my feelings about this. I have seen videos of SD masters a few years ago, and I felt that they were not good.

I am not going to try to change your mind. I am just stating my opinion.

[Flying-Monkey]

Show us videos of LKL doing kung fu. Yet, be very careful with what you produce.




This isn't LKL but one of his teahers and one student.


http://www.laufamilyhunggar.com/welcome_video.htm

http://www.laufamilyhunggar.com/school_video2.htm

[Golden Tiger]

Comprehensive - refers to a state of "deep knowledge" not an overview of something....

Actually, thats not exactly correct. I think you have confused "comprehensive" with "comprehend".


I cant believe SD would down play others styles/systems by claiming to be the only of its type - most comprehensive -.

As far as I know, SD doesn't down play other styles. And I think they/we are somewhat correct in stating that we offer a very "comprehensive" curriculum, if not the most. If you feel that yours or another is more comprehensive, please, by all means share what you teach and let us decide.


Why would anyone have a problem with someone saying that Hung Gar practitioners understand Tiger Crane better than SD practitioners?

I might have missed it but I will be the first to say that someone that studies a specific style will have a better understanding of it.

And I just watched the vids that were posted above. One thing is for sure, they have an excellent training area. I might "borrow" some of those ideas :D . As to the content, and without getting negative, what do you see that shows a deeper understanding in them?

[Judge Pen]

You know I don't mean to be stirring the pot but you would think with the number of SD schools, teachers and students that there would be someone they could put forward as the SD poster boy (or girl) to showcase their quality.

Now I know most like to think they have nothing to prove, which in most cases is true, but considering the crap that SD gets from the MA community at large I think it would be in their best interest to 'show off' a little.

So, is there a Hero of Shaolin Do?

I'm no hero but my forms and sparring are out there for people to see. I am an average SD student. A middle-aged guy who works full time (40 to 60 a week), has physical limitations, and only finds time to train 6-10 hours per week (If I'm lucky). The average student's ability speaks as loudly as the hero's. While I'm not the best fighter out there, anyone who spars me will know they have been in a match with soneone that can handle himself even if he doesn't win the match. I'm happy with that.

[Judge Pen]

Why would anyone have a problem with someone saying that Hung Gar practitioners understand Tiger Crane better than SD practitioners? Why would anyone on the Hung Gar side of the fence take this as a major point? No one on either side should hold that expectation. Hung Gar focuses on Tiger Crane as a crucial part of their system, while SD says "OK, here's Tiger Crane. Finish that and it's time to learn another style with a totally disparate body structure and approach to fighting."

I don't doubt that an SD practitioner who learns Mantis and trains diligently, and has a good teacher could glean some rudimentary fighting concepts from it. But he/she will never understand Mantis as well as someone who has been learning Mantis throughout their entire Martial Arts pursuit (whether it's Seven Star, Mei Hua, LiuHe, Taiji Mantis, or 8 step.) Unless that SD person has only been going through the motions on everything else and focuses only on their Mantis, or the Seven Star/Whatever Mantis practitioner doesn't practice very much/at all, it simply is not possible.


I don't think that anyone in SD will say that they understand and can perform Tiger/Crane duet as well as a Hung Gar student how has had the form for the same amount of time. Why? Because in that time an SD student will have learned a dozen more different forms while the Hung Gar student will have focused on either T/C or forms/principles/drills that compliment T/C. Any SD student that says otherwise is kidding himself.

[ricardocameron]

I'm no hero but my forms and sparring are out there for people to see.

I saw the Kwan dao form on youtube, which was good.
Where can we see more?

[Judge Pen]

That's the only form I have posted. I've been meaning to post more, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

[ricardocameron]

I'd post one of mine, (if i had any, and knew how) but I'm afraid that would lend credence to the SD naysayers we swim amongst... :p

Plus, I more I learn, the more I KNOW I suck...:D

[Fei jiao]

A Kung fu system is not just a collection of different forms. While it's common, especially in northern styles, to include forms from other systems as complementary material, they still have a CORE SYSTEM in which the techniques and forms share fighting principles and strategy. Therefore if you see a school that contains a great variety of unrelated styles, the question to ask is: What are the core principles of the system? And is it omnipresent in the style's forms and techniques.

In my opinion, If the school teach one form of each style (Mantis, Bagua, Tai chi, Hung Gar etc...), the school doesn't have a system, just a collection of forms from different systems. That's why I don't consider SD as a traditional system.

But that's just my humble opinion.

[Golden Tiger]

That's why I don't consider SD as a traditional system.


You know, I don't really either in a sense. Sure, the stuff we learn might be traditional but for the most part, it has evolved in a way that the students get material in a well ordered manner where as each new thing builts upon the next. Traditional..who knows? Effective, very!

[Fei jiao]

You know, I don't really either in a sense. Sure, the stuff we learn might be traditional but for the most part, it has evolved in a way that the students get material in a well ordered manner where as each new thing builts upon the next. Traditional..who knows? Effective, very!

I don't think you understood what I meant in my post....but it's ok. I just don't feel like arguing on this.

[Citong Shifu]

Actually, thats not exactly correct. I think you have confused "comprehensive" with "comprehend".



As far as I know, SD doesn't down play other styles. And I think they/we are somewhat correct in stating that we offer a very "comprehensive" curriculum, if not the most. If you feel that yours or another is more comprehensive, please, by all means share what you teach and let us decide.



I might have missed it but I will be the first to say that someone that studies a specific style will have a better understanding of it.

And I just watched the vids that were posted above. One thing is for sure, they have an excellent training area. I might "borrow" some of those ideas :D . As to the content, and without getting negative, what do you see that shows a deeper understanding in them?


GT, (comprehensive - comprehend) are u saying that SD teaches its members that it is better to learn multiple forms/styles rather than understand each style, for better lack of words? I agree, training different styles can and will introduce a student to different aspects of training and self-defense (comprehensive), but this doesnt mean that they will understand in detail (comprehensively), just means thier familiar with different methods or style/s... We believe in our system that understanding first leads to "a state of comprehensiveness with any given style". I was wondering if you believed that a style can be just as comprehensive as lets say, someone who knows 5 styles??? If not, why???? In our art (Fujian shaolin temple kung fu) we are taught to not define our techniques/training in order to keep our options open to the many or hundreds of variations; example - a fist can be a punch, leapard or dog fist, pheonix eye strike, ginger fist, snake fist, palm strike, tiger claw etc.... know what I mean.... only the situation or form dictates what one will train when practicing the technique...... I have seen the SD curriculum, and I can see how they would say its comprehensive, its a big art... I was just curious to know if SD considers other arts just as comprehensive without 900 forms and 50 styles????

As far as the videos, I dont train in that particular art and its just a video. So, I cant really respond to that....


Sifu Ron

[Citong Shifu]

I'm really confuse now....... www.sinthe.com.

shaolin-do sin the karate school...

[lunghushan]

All I can say is I would NEVER take something with 50 martial arts and 900 forms.

Because it would just mean that you suck at 50 martial arts and 900 forms. There aren't enough hours in the day to practice all that stuff.

[Yao Sing]

I have an interesting question - What ISN'T in Shaolin Do? :)

[lunghushan]

Wrong again apparently you do not seem to understand training principles and the similarities between the punch the push and the strike KC

The bottom line is you are full of crap and total B.S., not to mention naivete, if you buy into Shaolin-Do's taglines.

There's so much overlap between CMA systems that you're just wasting your time. You guys probably develop an overview of a bunch of different systems and forms, and you might even gain some fighting ability, but you cannot go into depth in any of that.

Anyway, I'm out of this discussion. If people want to do Shaolin-Do, great for them right? But I think it would be a total waste of time. Jack of all trades, suck at them all.

[BentMonk]

Wow, we're creeping up on 200 pages. Pretty soon this thread will have as many pages as SD has forms. :D No one that I know in SD actually thinks they're going to learn all 900 forms. I have no intention of even trying. That's one of the many reasons I've been 1st black for 8 years. I am devoting the remainder of my MA career to Xing Yi. I will continue practicing everything I've learned in SD. It has given me a lot in terms of technique, mobility, etc. but Xing Yi is what speaks to me. As to anyone posting SD videos...why? With the exception of JP, as soon as someone says "SD video" it automatically sucks because it's SD. Maybe they'd get a fair viewing if they posted anonymously and said later they were SD, who knows. I don't understand why there are at least 100 other schools with over the top advertising, (see the 900 forms thing) or a legend-esque history, (see Su Kong), and yet the only school that has 200+ pages of discussion about it is SD. I keep reading how everyone outside of SD thinks that SD bashes other systems and styles. In the 12 years I've studied SD, I've never heard, seen or read this first hand. I know there are some SD schools that advocate a closed door, elitist attitude towards other systems and styles. There are also many SD schools that do not do this. I know the one I attend displays no such elitist BS at all. Oh well, the immortal horse still runs despite 200+ beatings. :D BTW, who's going to be in Lexington this Saturday? I'll be there, and I kind of stand out in a crowd. lol Come up and say hello if you see me. Peace.

[lunghushan]

Great use of words as you judge those you do not know. I know what I know and you dont. KC

There's just no way you could master Hsing-I in a short amount of time. It would take you years. Taiji years and years of practicing hours every day.

There's just no way in hell that you can master all that material in a lifetime. There's no way you could even become good at all that material in a lifetime, even if you practiced all day.

Compare your xingyi or taiji to somebody who does just that, for years. Do you really think it's good? No ... you might be able to do a form rudimentary but that would be about it.

[Fei jiao]

You guys probably develop an overview of a bunch of different systems and forms, and you might even gain some fighting ability, but you cannot go into depth in any of that.


That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Example, how many Hung gar forms do you have in your system? One?, two? Do you think you can grasp what Hung gar is about by learning one or two forms?

To understand a SYSTEM you need more than the forms. You need to know all training methods, conditioning, fight strategy specific to Hung gar, which are different from Northern Shaolin, which are different to Mantis etc... what you have is just a collection of forms borrowed from different systems, you don't have any CORE SYSTEM. Nothing specific to Shaolin-Do. But you guys don't seem to understand that basic principle.

[lunghushan]

Since I don't know much about your 'external' forms, how long does it take you to do all your xingyi and taiji and bagua 4x?

And suppose in your xingyi you have all 5 element forms, 12 animals, jian, dao, spear, staff, ancillary forms (combination forms), and partner forms? And you practice those all the time?

Same with taiji, you have large frame, small frame, jian, dao, spear, staff, etc.? And you practice those all the time? 4x each form, 2x or more per week? Plus partner forms?

And you still have time for everything else?

I don't think so. If you can do all of this, could you please then give us some training tips?

[Fei jiao]

Do you also practice Hsing I chi gong as well as Bagua chi gong and Taiji chi gong?

[lunghushan]

Since all forms have the same basic concept of punching and Pushing etc I consider this cross training

??? What are you talking about here? So you do all your forms the same way?

[Radhnoti]

LOTS of "respectable" kung fu schools have added Tai Chi to their curriculum. LOTS of kuntao schools teach hsing-i, tai chi and bagua.

It's been argued before that the "core system" of shaolin-do is in the "short forms". Quite similar to tan tui, they are a distillation of 30 from "108 steps of the lohan". The short forms are taught for the first few ranks, until the student reaches brown. Relatively linear in their current form, I've heard it theorized that this leads kung-fu stylists to pass the judgement "karate-ish" on forms that come later.

[Fei jiao]

What's the ratio of training between Core Shaolin-do and the additional stuff? It seems a bit strange that you guys have hundreds of forms from about 50 styles and what represent the core system is 30 short forms (actually 30 forms is already a lot of forms). Why so much additions? Wouldn't it make sense to focus on the "core" of your system? I mean if you want to focus on Hsing I why not simply study Hsing-I from a Hsing-I teacher?

[lunghushan]

LOTS of "respectable" kung fu schools have added Tai Chi to their curriculum. LOTS of kuntao schools teach hsing-i, tai chi and bagua.

It's been argued before that the "core system" of shaolin-do is in the "short forms". Quite similar to tan tui, they are a distillation of 30 from "108 steps of the lohan". The short forms are taught for the first few ranks, until the student reaches brown. Relatively linear in their current form, I've heard it theorized that this leads kung-fu stylists to pass the judgement "karate-ish" on forms that come later.

Yeah, but do they really teach hsing-i, tai chi and bagua? Or do they just teach bits and pieces of each?

Honestly, I don't care what SD does. If it works for you, that's fine.

But based upon the descriptions, it's starting to seem like that Shaolin-Do doesn't really teach 50 different martial arts, 900 forms, but rather something like 50 pieces of different martial arts, 900 forms, all done the same way.

[kungfujunky]

the training in sd grows with each year you are there. every year you add more to your traing schedule. and every year you get that much better.

every form every style and every system we learn is taught so as to compliment the stuff we have learned previously. so all of our material builds on itself to give you a greater understanding of each form as time progresses. we arent given bits and pieces of each system.

our chen form is 83 postures. thats not a tiny taste of chen...its a big old bear of a form that takes years and years of practice to get down even a little well.

our beginning pa kua form is 186 postures or some such with half sections mixed sections etc thrown in. we dont learn bits of pa kua. we spend months on it and it is taught every other year for 3 months. we learn the rules of pa kua as well as how to train and use it effectively without damaging the body.

our hsing yi is the same.

we do not train over 5 postures and say "hey we know tai chi!"

we learn the material and we practice it. we do chi kung we do stepping..we do meditation and breathing techniuqes.

there is understaning with how we train.

no we dont spend every day on 5-10 forms of a system and call it done.

we build upon each thing to give ourselves a much larger grasp of the whole.

[lunghushan]

the training in sd grows with each year you are there. every year you add more to your traing schedule. and every year you get that much better.

every form every style and every system we learn is taught so as to compliment the stuff we have learned previously. so all of our material builds on itself to give you a greater understanding of each form as time progresses. we arent given bits and pieces of each system.

our chen form is 83 postures. thats not a tiny taste of chen...its a big old bear of a form that takes years and years of practice to get down even a little well.

our beginning pa kua form is 186 postures or some such with half sections mixed sections etc thrown in. we dont learn bits of pa kua. we spend months on it and it is taught every other year for 3 months. we learn the rules of pa kua as well as how to train and use it effectively without damaging the body.

our hsing yi is the same.

we do not train over 5 postures and say "hey we know tai chi!"

we learn the material and we practice it. we do chi kung we do stepping..we do meditation and breathing techniuqes.

there is understaning with how we train.

no we dont spend every day on 5-10 forms of a system and call it done.

we build upon each thing to give ourselves a much larger grasp of the whole.

So do you do xingyi weapons? Do you do taiji weapons? Just playing devils advocate here. And 86 posture Chen is not all of Chen taiji by any means. Chen taiji is a complete system, right? Staff, straight sword (jian), saber (dao), etc.

[kungfujunky]

yes we do hsing yi weapons pa kua weapons tai chi weapons

so far in chen style we have been shwon the 83 posture and chen iron fan.

i dont know if our tai chi dow is chen or yang..golden tiger would be able to help with that!

tai chi we have the chen fan yang spear straight sword and tai chi dow.

hsing yi we have dagger and staff....there could be more that i just havent seen or know about yet.

pa kua we have staff sun moon fork knives dow and more

again i am first black and havent seen all of this so i am most probably missing forms.

[lunghushan]

yes we do hsing yi weapons pa kua weapons tai chi weapons

so far in chen style we have been shwon the 83 posture and chen iron fan.

i dont know if our tai chi dow is chen or yang..golden tiger would be able to help with that!

tai chi we have the chen fan yang spear straight sword and tai chi dow.

hsing yi we have dagger and staff....there could be more that i just havent seen or know about yet.

pa kua we have staff sun moon fork knives dow and more

again i am first black and havent seen all of this so i am most probably missing forms.

Okay, then I gotcha ... there's no physical way even if you practiced all day you could master all that. To be able to fight with a drop of a hat in any of that. Even if you practiced all day you wouldn't be able to keep it straight.

[kungfujunky]

well i dont think id want to fight with a tai chi dow personally

i more of a punch and kick fighter so i just see that stuff as excellent training with an increased awareness of the principles of that particular system im using.

[lunghushan]

well i dont think id want to fight with a tai chi dow personally

i more of a punch and kick fighter so i just see that stuff as excellent training with an increased awareness of the principles of that particular system im using.

Well anyways, thanks, it gives us more information about what you guys are doing.

I wouldn't want to follow that training methodology, but it sounds like it works for you.

[Golden Tiger]

GT, (comprehensive - comprehend) are u saying that SD teaches its members that it is better to learn multiple forms/styles rather than understand each style, for better lack of words?

Not really, but that is what SD offers. For those who look for and like being exposed to many different styles, SD is for them. I also think that most that take SD for x amount of time do infact get the training and information to learn the styles more in depth if they choose to.


was wondering if you believed that a style can be just as comprehensive as lets say, someone who knows 5 styles??


I would have to say maybe on that one. By definition, one particular style might not encompass all that might be taught in another. Would the student still gain valuable knowledge? Of course. But lets look at two differing styles..PM and long fist. Would the PM student have the same skill level when it came to kicks, low stance etc...as the Long Fist student? Would the Long fist student have the same hand and stepping skills as the PM person? So while both might turn the student into a great MA'ist, they would do it differently. If neither student had trained in Tai Chi, and then someone had trained in all three, wouldn't be fair to say that the 3rd might have a more complete well rounded skill set?


I was just curious to know if SD considers other arts just as comprehensive without 900 forms and 50 styles????


I can only speak for myself and from what I have read from the other SD'ers on here that we generally don't worry about other arts/schools/styles that much. But now that I have been asked, I think any style that offers a good external side, along with proper conditioning, chi gong and sparring, would be also considered a "comprehensive" martial art.



If people want to do Shaolin-Do, great for them right? But I think it would be a total waste of time. Jack of all trades, suck at them all.


Your valuable input will be missed.


There's just no way you could master Hsing-I in a short amount of time. It would take you years. Taiji years and years of practicing hours every day.

There's just no way in hell that you can master all that material in a lifetime. There's no way you could even become good at all that material in a lifetime, even if you practiced all day.



Back so soon?

Not sure who you are refering to specifically, but I was first introduced to Tai Chi (Yang 64) in the late 70's early 80's. So thats about 25 years working on that. Pa Kua and Hsing Ie, mid 80's so at least 20 years. Now I am not sure what you consider a "master" to be, but you do anything that long and you are going to learn a thing or two.:D


Example, how many Hung gar forms do you have in your system? One?, two? Do you think you can grasp what Hung gar is about by learning one or two forms?


One, Tiger/Crane duet.

Question #2. Nope, I haven't the slightest what Hung gar is all about.


To understand a SYSTEM you need more than the forms. You need to know all training methods, conditioning, fight strategy specific..(fill in the blank)

Though it is not done as much these days, back when Master Sin was still actively teaching, all new forms were preceded by many months of all the things mentioned above. I will be the first to admit that that training is now lacking in a lot of SD schools but for some of us, it was there and still is.


Do you also practice Hsing I chi gong as well as Bagua chi gong and Taiji chi gong?

Yes, yes and yes.


Yeah, but do they really teach hsing-i, tai chi and bagua? Or do they just teach bits and pieces of each?



Still here Lung? Anyway, yes, SD teaches all of the mentioned styles especially now that there is an internal only side to SD.


Okay, thats all I can handle in one sitting. I will be back later if needed. Y'all be good now..

[lunghushan]

Still here Lung? Anyway, yes, SD teaches all of the mentioned styles especially now that there is an internal only side to SD.


I'm sorry, but this just seems like complete and utter nonsense. I've met very few people who can keep up with one complete system like Chen taiji let alone practice multiple systems and have it all down.

So either you have down the piece you're working with now and are rusty with the rest, or you kindof suck at all of it, or there's something I'm missing.

Can you honestly say you're great in all of bagua, hsing-i and taiji? With all the weapons?

[kungfujunky]

theres something your missing.

we practice all of it on a cycle with daily routines that each student does at their own discretion. i break up my training into weekly sets.

so as to cover all of my material

[lunghushan]

theres something your missing.

we practice all of it on a cycle with daily routines that each student does at their own discretion. i break up my training into weekly sets.

so as to cover all of my material

Hmmm ... well ... who knows. I have no idea. I wouldn't do this, but whatever. ???

When you go to spar or fight don't you get confused? If you study so many systems, what do you use when you fight?

[kungfujunky]

it all depends on what i want to practice when im sparring...we usually get 3-5 rounds of sparring per class...if you stay for brown belt and lower belt thats almost 10 rounds of sparring. lots of practice time.

if i need to fight i do whats simplest and least harmful to my opponent since laws as they are now make it dificult to defend oneself without getting in trouble for it.

so mainly on the street i use tai chi and lots of joint locks and palm strikes (to st 18 stomach area etc)

if i am in a situation where i need to use excessive force then i have done something wrong. but if such a situation arises i will use whatever system flows into the fight.

fighting is like bruce lee said

you must be like water. you have to adapt and change within a seconds notice. so i dont pigeon hole my fighting to this or that. i do what my opponent makes available to me. plain and simple

[lunghushan]

it all depends on what i want to practice when im sparring...we usually get 3-5 rounds of sparring per class...if you stay for brown belt and lower belt thats almost 10 rounds of sparring. lots of practice time.

if i need to fight i do whats simplest and least harmful to my opponent since laws as they are now make it dificult to defend oneself without getting in trouble for it.

so mainly on the street i use tai chi and lots of joint locks and palm strikes (to st 18 stomach area etc)

if i am in a situation where i need to use excessive force then i have done something wrong. but if such a situation arises i will use whatever system flows into the fight.

fighting is like bruce lee said

you must be like water. you have to adapt and change within a seconds notice. so i dont pigeon hole my fighting to this or that. i do what my opponent makes available to me. plain and simple

Well I guess I'd don't really know what SD is about unless I visit a school. Maybe somebody will open one up in Seattle soon.

[Learn]

I don't doubt that SD produces some great fighters. I also don't doubt that SD allows some people to find alot of fullfillment, regardless of whether they become great fighters. What is troubling is the marketing approach of SD, in that it purports to teach all these various styles. A more honest approach would be that of JKD. What JKD is has evolved and is subject to much debate, but it purports to teach more concepts and theories than be limited to a style. The dishonesty of SD is that a student thinks they will learn style x and style y and style z. If one wishes to study a kung fu style, there is a whole lot more than learning a few forms. If SD marketed itself along the lines of, we'll give you a smattering of a bunch of different kung fu styles, and you might be able to study a particular style in a little more depth, (but not to mastery of any given style), that would be an honesty you probably couldn't argue with. The course of study of kung fu is forms, whether you agree with that or not, however, those forms are merely the starting point for so much more. SD teaches the starting point and fails at the "so much more."

[tattooedmonk]

Well I guess I'd don't really know what SD is about unless I visit a school. Maybe somebody will open one up in Seattle soon. Sarah Yoffe 3rd black 206-778-0456 chinese shaolin center seattle classes just started this month

[BigZib]

This isn't LKL but one of his teahers and one student.


http://www.laufamilyhunggar.com/welcome_video.htm

http://www.laufamilyhunggar.com/school_video2.htm

Thanks for bringing this sight to my attn. flying monkey. I enjoyed it very much, How nice it would be to visit this school. I could only imagine being able to drop everything and go to china to train at a cool school like this one.

[The Xia]

If Shaolin Do has all of these systems within it, wouldn't Sin The be one of the most respected martial artists in the world? If Shaolin Do's history was true, wouldn't every Kung Fu master flock to be associated with them?

[lunghushan]

Sarah Yoffe 3rd black 206-778-0456 chinese shaolin center seattle classes just started this month

Hmmm. Okay, I'll bite. Do you guys train in some kind of shoes, or barefoot, though?

I don't train barefoot.

Anyways, maybe I can at least go see a class.

So I called but she's not opening the school until Mid September it says.

Oh, and do you have contracts? I don't do contracts.

[tattooedmonk]

The tiger crane duet is just one of the forms out of the hung ga system that is taught ..because of it's popularity, I was told ,it was featured so that other CMA /Kung Fu systems would recognize it and some of the other forms that are popular and realize that it actually is a chinese art

one of the reasons that I was told that Master Sin has taught many obscure and rare forms is because you can find the more popular and well known forms anywhere and he wanted to show some of the diversity of the art .

from what I heard EML was taught the whole Choy Lee Fut system!?!?!

[Learn]

Kwaichung,

I started SD before 92. I know how it was marketed then and I've seen how it has been marketed since. Studied Mantis since. I have to go back to the nuances. The Mantis I was taught in SD is frankly embarrasing. Studied under Sin The. There is some meat there, but there is a whole lot of fat. It's fun to do SD, but you're not going to be a mantis fighter unless you study dedicated mantis. Maybe that's not your goal. That's ok. But SD should be honest in its marketing. "We'll teach you some Mantis techniques." That would be honest.

[tattooedmonk]

Hmmm. Okay, I'll bite. Do you guys train in some kind of shoes, or barefoot, though?

I don't train barefoot.

Anyways, maybe I can at least go see a class.

So I called but she's not opening the school until Mid September it says.

Oh, and do you have contracts? I don't do contracts.yes they do..Master Sin does not..he always wears shoes... if you said that you wanted to wear shoes and they were just for indoors I am sure they would accomidate you...( I have seen it done)

well wait until then....

they have contracts or month to month...

[The Xia]

You still insist on calling Shaolin Do a Chinese and Shaolin style. Sure, you guys may have a hodgepodge of forms from various Chinese styles, but are you doing them correctly? Do you not realize that Shaolin Do history contradicts Chinese martial arts history? And how do you respond to all the knowledgeable people that have seen Shaolin Do and say that it doesn't look like Chinese martial arts?

[lunghushan]

yes they do..Master Sin does not..he always wears shoes... if you said that you wanted to wear shoes and they were just for indoors I am sure they would accomidate you...( I have seen it done)

well wait until then....

they have contracts or month to month...

Thanks. Well, judging by the pics, I wouldn't train there. Just from the pics from the Las Vegas school it's pretty obvious they're at least 2 if not 3 generations removed from somebody who was good.

And if she's just starting out she's not going to have any high ranking people anyway.

Maybe next time I'm in Las Vegas I'll check out that school.

I mean, look at this. Bottom of the page, southern short swords:

http://www.shaolinlasvegas.com/lvpics1.htm

The stances are WAY too high. Sin The looks happy. Why shouldn't he be? He's rich off of this, right?

http://www.shaolinlasvegas.com/images/d01/d01_26.htm

What the heck is this? Their stances are way too high, one guy's butt is sticking out, the other guy (Is that Sin The) has his weight too far forward.

http://www.shaolinlasvegas.com/images/d01/d01_6.htm

This one looks a bit better. At least his weight is back a little.

http://www.shaolinlasvegas.com/n01_main.htm

These various weapons ones, I don't know what to say. By the way they're holding their stances even high ... I don't know what to say about this.

[tattooedmonk]

Kwaichung,

I started SD before 92. I know how it was marketed then and I've seen how it has been marketed since. Studied Mantis since. I have to go back to the nuances. The Mantis I was taught in SD is frankly embarrasing. Studied under Sin The. There is some meat there, but there is a whole lot of fat. It's fun to do SD, but you're not going to be a mantis fighter unless you study dedicated mantis. Maybe that's not your goal. That's ok. But SD should be honest in its marketing. "We'll teach you some Mantis techniques." That would be honest.many of the masters are specializing in specific areas......the lower belt material is there as an introduction into the art even at 5th or 6th black ( a master in SD ). you stilll have yet to get one whole style which seems to be a problem for many...

if you stick with it long enough you will learn a whole system.... I am sure... more material is being taught all the time..

lets see..tai ji quan combined, yang , chen fan straightsword, broad sword, etc, has been taught ..is that awhole style/ system??

that is material taught up to 5th black not to mention the xin yi quan and bagua zhang.. so if anyone really wanted to master a system these would be the ones because it is the largest body of material and the most powerful......

hell most people do not even pass black belt....

and most of the people talking sh** here have yet to even step foot in a class let alone take one...does this bother anyone??

[lunghushan]

http://www.shaolinlasvegas.com/lvpics2.htm

They all look very happy, right? (Except the guy with the beard). In fact, they all look a little too happy to be studying martial arts.

But if it works for them, then whatever.

[tattooedmonk]

Thanks. Well, judging by the pics, I wouldn't train there. Just from the pics from the Las Vegas school it's pretty obvious they're at least 2 if not 3 generations removed from somebody who was good.

And if she's just starting out she's not going to have any high ranking people anyway.

Maybe next time I'm in Las Vegas I'll check out that school.

I mean, look at this. Bottom of the page, southern short swords:

http://www.shaolinlasvegas.com/lvpics1.htm

The stances are WAY too high. Sin The looks happy. Why shouldn't he be? He's rich off of this, right?

http://www.shaolinlasvegas.com/images/d01/d01_26.htm

What the heck is this? Their stances are way too high, one guy's butt is sticking out, the other guy (Is that Sin The) has his weight too far forward.

http://www.shaolinlasvegas.com/images/d01/d01_6.htm

This one looks a bit better. At least his weight is back a little.

http://www.shaolinlasvegas.com/n01_main.htm

These various weapons ones, I don't know what to say. By the way they're holding their stances even high ... I don't know what to say about this. thanx man..I needed that...to tell the truth this was one of the reasonsI was kicked out ( being critical of peoples lack of discipline)!!!

Master sin Has never emphasised stances other than to tell you that your stances are to high or that your stances should be this or that ....

funny huh??

as far as I am concerned it is a big problem and also explains why the practitoners have no root or fluidity... or look weak

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.shaolinlasvegas.com/lvpics2.htm

They all look very happy, right? (Except the guy with the beard). In fact, they all look a little too happy to be studying martial arts.

But if it works for them, then whatever.that guy actually passed away not too long ago.. but yeah you are right ...it is a little queer...

[lunghushan]

thanx man..I needed that...to tell the truth this was one of the reasonsI was kicked out ( being critical of peoples lack of discipline)!!!

Master sin Has never emphasised stances other than to tell you that your stances are to high or that your stances should be this or that ....

funny huh??

as far as I am concerned it is a big problem and also explains why the practitoners have no root or fluidity... or look weak

Well, I hate to say it, but the fu in kung fu means work, right? These people look like they are having way too easy a time.

I guess that's my big gripe with chain schools is they don't seem to produce a quality product. The last school that I went to that had any effort to it was actually Oyama Karate in NYC. Those guys worked out hard. I always went home sore as hell.

[lunghushan]

that guy actually passed away not too long ago.. but yeah you are right ...it is a little queer...

??? There was another guy who died that they have on their website too, a younger guy. That's weird.

[kungfujunky]

all of the pics you posted are gmt and emd showing application with the weapons...not demonstrating the stance work

they are laughing and smiling because gmt is a funny and fun guy to train under.

sarah will have at least 1 3rd black with her and has already 20+ students waiting to sign up

we dont do contracts...if you pay for a year it is half price...but you can do month to month and it istill half as much as most places charge with 2 year contracts...you are making a lot of assumptions based on pics and not actually seeing something in real life.

gmt tells you what stance you should be in. its up to you to make that happen when you train. he is not going to hold your hand and make you do it. but when testing he will fail you if you dont at least attempt to push yourself to your limits of physical ability.

and just fyi ems and emd have begun physical requirements for testing.

and ems is all about low stances and conditioning.

going off of pics on a site that show a festival where people are learning something for the first time and learning application and history and background. is not going to show you what you are looking for. wait until sarah opens up and check it out.

[Learn]

Tattoeedmonk,

You raise good points. I did pass black belt, and know the expectations I was given for what I had learned and what I would learn. I have serious questions about the ability of one man to pass on the mastery of so many styles. So many study a particular style for a lifetime to master all the subtlties of a style before proclaiming themselves a master of the style. There is a logical disconnect in believing that one guy can pass on all the intricate elements of tai ji, ba gua, hsing i, the animals, when all other mortals study a particular style for a lifetime to master such. And then to pass all that mastery to so many instructors? Logic dictates otherwise. To think Sin The has mastered all these styles is simply fanciful. A pleasant fantasy yes, but ask those who have dedicated their lives to mastery of those style.

[Yao Sing]

There's an SD school in my town. When the, ah, stuff started flying on here about SD I took some time to stop by the school just as class ended. What I did see was a few guys working their butts off although I didn't get to see enough actual technique to make any judgements. Whatever they were doing they were doing it with extreme effort.

Based on what I've been reading here I'm nowhere near gifted enough to attempt learning SD. I have a hard enough time handling what I've learned already. I'd be lucky to get one style down well enough to be proficient (I'm still working hard on my core style).

I lost count but I've got over 60 hand and weapons sets. at least 50 from my core style, and that's already too much IMO. And it seems the more I learn the more I see the value of simplicity.

How many systems are already heading down the bloated path of too many forms? SD is just leading the pack.

[tattooedmonk]

You still insist on calling Shaolin Do a Chinese and Shaolin style. Sure, you guys may have a hodgepodge of forms from various Chinese styles, but are you doing them correctly? Do you not realize that Shaolin Do history contradicts Chinese martial arts history? And how do you respond to all the knowledgeable people that have seen Shaolin Do and say that it doesn't look like Chinese martial arts? Shaolin Do "The Way of Shaolin".....

you realize we are not talking about a few forms from this and a few forms from that ...we are talking about whole styles!!!

I do them correctly.....

So what.... all history contradicts it's self ..this proves nothing..

christian church says that Jesus is the/ our lord and savior and millions of people believe it and practice and teach/ preach it everyday...does it make it true??

Shaolin first and formost is a philosophical school founded by Buddhist, Taoist, and Confucist thought .

The forms are Chinese for the most part and the system is based on the history and the teachings of Shaolin.

It passes on The Way of Shaolin in a modified format that has been adapted for modern teaching ,learning, and usage .

you are right I would say it does not look like chinese wushu / chuan fa..

I would say that it is Amercan Shaolin which at time looks like karate

big deal...

is it effective ?? depends on the user and that holds true in any art...( I say F**K YEAH IT IS!!!)

If you saw the way I do it you would not think that I learned it from the same people...but then again I am no longer affiliated.....

I walked away with all the material up to 6th black+ seminars and festivals


I have been studying martial arts for 25 years and CMA for 15 plus so ...who is an expert or knowledgeable ??

people who to save face will say just about anything to cover up a lie or admit they do not know??

oh by the way I still love the art and master sin

[Radhnoti]

Just a quick story...a friend of mine had learned a form with his hand in a certain configuration, I don't recall what but let's say phoenix eye fist. He went to a seminar GM Sin was teaching and GMS was going over the form and instead did it open palmed. My friend got his attention and said he'd learned it differently and should it be an open palm or a phoenix eye? GM Sin said, "yes" then laughed and went on. I really don't think he wants everyone to end up doing everything the same...I think he expects good students to make it their own. I could be wrong about that, but that's the impression I always got.
I was a bit surprised to hear similar stories told about "Uncle" Willem deThouars...it's a very IndoChinese martial background kind of mindset from what I've been able to gather.

[lunghushan]

going off of pics on a site that show a festival where people are learning something for the first time and learning application and history and background. is not going to show you what you are looking for. wait until sarah opens up and check it out.

I'll check out her classes but I highly doubt I'd train there. It doesn't look any better than USSD.

[tattooedmonk]

Tattoeedmonk,

You raise good points. I did pass black belt, and know the expectations I was given for what I had learned and what I would learn. I have serious questions about the ability of one man to pass on the mastery of so many styles. So many study a particular style for a lifetime to master all the subtlties of a style before proclaiming themselves a master of the style. There is a logical disconnect in believing that one guy can pass on all the intricate elements of tai ji, ba gua, hsing i, the animals, when all other mortals study a particular style for a lifetime to master such. And then to pass all that mastery to so many instructors? Logic dictates otherwise. To think Sin The has mastered all these styles is simply fanciful. A pleasant fantasy yes, but ask those who have dedicated their lives to mastery of those style.even Master Sin has admited that he has not mastered all the forms or styles ..... but not to too many people mind you...

the title of master does not mean sh** now adays.... grand master is just the title for the holder of the system or the highest master in the art.. it really has no meaning...

usually when a teacher brings a student to black belt that should be the time that they recieve the associate mastership ...then when they have multiple black belts they receive full mastership ......then when they bring their blackbelts to associate mastership they get to be senior master then when the student becomes a master then there senior master becomes an elder master or so it should go..

because I find it very hard to believe that a 6th degree master can teach a student up to 5th associate master. I think they should be a senior master first but what do I know....

[tattooedmonk]

Just a quick story...a friend of mine had learned a form with his hand in a certain configuration, I don't recall what but let's say phoenix eye fist. He went to a seminar GM Sin was teaching and GMS was going over the form and instead did it open palmed. My friend got his attention and said he'd learned it differently and should it be an open palm or a phoenix eye? GM Sin said, "yes" then laughed and went on. I really don't think he wants everyone to end up doing everything the same...I think he expects good students to make it their own. I could be wrong about that, but that's the impression I always got.
I was a bit surprised to hear similar stories told about "Uncle" Willem deThouars...it's a very IndoChinese martial background kind of mindset from what I've been able to gather.correct......... this happened at the taiji fan seminar a few years back .. when he first taught it he showd closing the fan with the leg in this one part then the next time he showed it using his hand ...people flipped out ( like it really mattered) ..I have seen this with so many forms..there should be standard set by Sin The...

[Learn]

I would disagree about the "Indochineese approach" as has been suggested. Yes there are many variants on how silat would approach something, but mastery of the strategy and concepts of a particular school of thought are critical to those arts. A given approach could use an open hand or a "phoenix eye" but the tactics must still be mastered. Learning ten or twenty or thirty juros does not teach the art. If you train with someone who has truly accomplished mastery of the art you learn that the juros are just eating from the appetizers of the menu.

[tattooedmonk]

I'll check out her classes but I highly doubt I'd train there. It doesn't look any better than USSD. And you would be correct!!!

[The Xia]

Shaolin Do "The Way of Shaolin".....

you realize we are not talking about a few forms from this and a few forms from that ...we are talking about whole styles!!!

I do them correctly.....
Yeah, it translates as "The Way of Shaolin" if you mix languages..
So you have the forms from alot of styles. That doesn't mean you are doing the forms right or you are getting the benefits of the styles.

So what.... all history contradicts it's self ..this proves nothing..
Shaolin Do history contradicts the history of Kung Fu. Who are you going to believe, highly respected lineages and styles that are widely recognized as real Chinese martial arts or Shaolin Do? Also, do you deny the evidence shown by Willow Sword?

christian church says that Jesus is the/ our lord and savior and millions of people believe it and practice and teach/ preach it everyday...does it make it true??

Shaolin first and formost is a philosophical school founded by Buddhist, Taoist, and Confucist thought .
Shaolin is a Buddhist institution, the foundation of Chan. As for Christianity, that has nothing to do with this.

The forms are Chinese for the most part and the system is based on the history and the teachings of Shaolin.
Again, you can have the forms of every style on this planet, but are they done correctly and do you truly master the styles?


It passes on The Way of Shaolin in a modified format that has been adapted for modern teaching ,learning, and usage .
What evidence is there that Shaolin Do is truly Shaolin?


you are right I would say it does not look like chinese wushu / chuan fa..

I would say that it is Amercan Shaolin which at time looks like karate

big deal...
What is "American Shaolin"? And actually, alot of people on this board who have seen Shaolin Do say it doesn't look like Chinese martial arts.

is it effective ?? depends on the user and that holds true in any art...( I say F**K YEAH IT IS!!!)

If you saw the way I do it you would not think that I learned it from the same people...but then again I am no longer affiliated.....

I walked away with all the material up to 6th black+ seminars and festivals


I have been studying martial arts for 25 years and CMA for 15 plus so ...who is an expert or knowledgeable ??

people who to save face will say just about anything to cover up a lie or admit they do not know??

oh by the way I still love the art and master sin
What Chinese martial arts have you studied or researched that would make you an expert on Shaolin Kung Fu?

[Baqualin]

Can anyone tell me what book or video Grand Master Sin is getting the 1st 2nd 3rd & 4th road of the Golden Leopard system from;)

[lunghushan]

Can anyone tell me what book or video Grand Master Sin is getting the 1st 2nd 3rd & 4th road of the Golden Leopard system from;)

Who knows? Who cares?

If it works for you, great, but don't expect everybody to want to do it.

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/books.htm

It could be any one of these. This is a very small collection of books from China.

I guess the point is, he can't prove he is who he says he is. We can't prove he's not ... so if it works for you, great, otherwise, whatever. :)

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah, it translates as "The Way of Shaolin" if you mix languages..
So you have the forms from alot of styles. That doesn't mean you are doing the forms right or you are getting the benefits of the styles.

Shaolin Do history contradicts the history of Kung Fu. Who are you going to believe, highly respected lineages and styles that are widely recognized as real Chinese martial arts or Shaolin Do? Also, do you deny the evidence shown by Willow Sword?

Shaolin is a Buddhist institution, the foundation of Chan. As for Christianity, that has nothing to do with this.

Again, you can have the forms of every style on this planet, but are they done correctly and do you truly master the styles?


What evidence is there that Shaolin Do is truly Shaolin?


What is "American Shaolin"? And actually, alot of people on this board who have seen Shaolin Do say it doesn't look like Chinese martial arts.

What Chinese martial arts have you studied or researched that would make you an expert on Shaolin Kung Fu? Shaolin Do is a mixture of chinese and japanese anyway.. the characters are the same...and it was known as Shaolin Tao first

this does not mean that we are doing the forms wrong either... I know I am doing them right because I have used the techniques in self defense fighting and sparring...( not tag).

whether some one gets the benefits from the style depends on many factors ...too many to discuss here

it contradicts the story of the five elders...big deal..... it does not contradict much else...if it does big deal

the part about christianity was an example that no matter how long or how much something has been practiced preached or taught this does not make it true..you missed that??


this stuff about mastery is absurd

many things prove that it is shaolin all of that have been posted before so I will not get into that again...

what evidnce indicates that shaolin do is not true shaolin??

what do you think american shaolin means?? ...do not be stupid..... just like chinese food there is chinese food then there is american chinese food ...it is still is good food that needs to be eaten

No Sh** it does not look like chinese martial arts ..... because it went through all of asia to get to the united states you know the lineage...duh!!

hell chinese martial arts does not look like chinese martial arts anymore.....

well lets see ...taiji quan ,bagua zhang , xinyi quan, tiger ,black tiger preying mantis ,eagle claw , monkey, five animals, five elders, wing chun hunga , choy lee fut, many southern and northern fist ,weapons etc..

my focus for the last ten years has been on the internal styles alone

I have learned over 100 forms. they all have the same techniques just with different flavor and application and Qi usage

if it works in a combat situation then how can it be wrong????

how it looks may not be pretty compared to what you are use to but believe me it works!!...and that is all that really matters

you make abig deal about sh** that matters to people who are not sifu or sigung or even real practitoners of any art form

[Golden Tiger]

Can you honestly say you're great in all of bagua, hsing-i and taiji? With all the weapons?

No, but I am pretty good in most of them.;)

[BlueTravesty]

feel free to shoot it down if you wish.

It doesn't matter, since none of the SD "movers and shakers" are reading this board, but check this. Most of the SD'ers out there have said that despite the large body of material to learn, most high-level SD practitioners really have certain specialties. A similar situation was faced by Shanghai's Chin Wu (Jing Wu/Jing Mo) association. Their solution was to get a body of general "building-block forms" from several styles so that the student had a good foundation. Once the basic structure had been established that student would then pursue a particular style. This required several things however- first off, the masters of these styles all taught under the same roof. Second, they co-existed and shared the common purpose to go against the old way of teaching martial arts (closed-door) and create a paradigm shift. This paradigm shift is one of the most signifigant in CMA history.

Some may argue that SD does this in a less formal manner. I would say- formalize it. Teach your beginning students the "core" SD forms. If you have a Drunken Specialist (by Specialist I mean someone who understands the key concepts and theories underlying that form/style,) a Mantis Specialist, a Tiger Specialist, and a Bagua Specialist, then the student could learn the core styles, and then choose to pursue one of the above styles. SD seems to be quite a ubiquitous outfit and therefore, unlike less widespread MA schools, could afford to do this quite easily. For example, the student has learned the "core" and went on to getting a very good grip on Bagua, but was interested in learning Chen Taiji. They could be taught the form, and then referred to another SD instructor who specialized in it.

Again, I know that this is already done to some extent within SD, but seems to hold true mostly just for the Black Belts. How about giving students who don't want to wade through hundreds of forms to get to Black the opportunity to find what they're good at? Just a thought.

[tattooedmonk]

Can anyone tell me what book or video Grand Master Sin is getting the 1st 2nd 3rd & 4th road of the Golden Leopard system from;)I looked all over for golden leopard ..the only place I found it was in Doc Fei Wong choy lee fut ..there are no videos available...I could not find them anywhere else...

[tattooedmonk]

feel free to shoot it down if you wish.

It doesn't matter, since none of the SD "movers and shakers" are reading this board, but check this. Most of the SD'ers out there have said that despite the large body of material to learn, most high-level SD practitioners really have certain specialties. A similar situation was faced by Shanghai's Chin Wu (Jing Wu/Jing Mo) association. Their solution was to get a body of general "building-block forms" from several styles so that the student had a good foundation. Once the basic structure had been established that student would then pursue a particular style. This required several things however- first off, the masters of these styles all taught under the same roof. Second, they co-existed and shared the common purpose to go against the old way of teaching martial arts (closed-door) and create a paradigm shift. This paradigm shift is one of the most signifigant in CMA history.

Some may argue that SD does this in a less formal manner. I would say- formalize it. Teach your beginning students the "core" SD forms. If you have a Drunken Specialist (by Specialist I mean someone who understands the key concepts and theories underlying that form/style,) a Mantis Specialist, a Tiger Specialist, and a Bagua Specialist, then the student could learn the core styles, and then choose to pursue one of the above styles. SD seems to be quite a ubiquitous outfit and therefore, unlike less widespread MA schools, could afford to do this quite easily. For example, the student has learned the "core" and went on to getting a very good grip on Bagua, but was interested in learning Chen Taiji. They could be taught the form, and then referred to another SD instructor who specialized in it.

Again, I know that this is already done to some extent within SD, but seems to hold true mostly just for the Black Belts. How about giving students who don't want to wade through hundreds of forms to get to Black the opportunity to find what they're good at? Just a thought. and bingo was his name-o!!!

[tattooedmonk]

No, but I am pretty good in most of them.;) and what makes you think so?? you could be pretty SH*TY at all of them?? LMAO!!!;o)

[BlueTravesty]

hell chinese martial arts does not look like chinese martial arts anymore.....

well lets see ...taiji quan ,bagua zhang , xinyi quan, tiger ,black tiger preying mantis ,eagle claw , monkey, five animals, five elders, wing chun hunga , choy lee fut, many southern and northern fist ,weapons etc..


??? I don't doubt that the CMA of today look different than Ming Dynasty martial arts, but I think that has to do more with subtle changes and small innovations than with anything. I'm sure if you were able to pluck Wang Lang (if indeed he existed.) out of ancient China and compare his form with that of a good modern Mantis practitioner you wouldn't see too much of a differnce though. I'm sure both would also come away with a new perspective, though. "Hey, I never thought of THAT application!"

If one believes that all Kung Fu comes from Shaolin (as many do to this day still,) I suppose one could say that the many styles that result now are far removed and therefore changed from the original (Shaolin.) I personally think that's backwards. A country as broad and ethnically diverse as China can't help but have hundreds of different Martial Arts, much as Europe had hundreds of different approaches to fencing and Boxing. I think "Shaolin Kung Fu" was/is a product of a mixture of many pre-existing styles of Martial Art (Hong, Lohan, Kan Jia, Animal Styles, etc.) Pieces of Shaolin were taught to the people, who in turn took that knowledge, blended it with other styles that already existed and created new styles. It's the way of the world.

As for the historical stuff, I totally agree with you. It really is irrelevant. For the system I study, there are stories told of a Tang Dynasty Monk who watched gibbons fighting and took the concepts for Mizong from them. Or of the hero Yan Qing from "The Water Margin." Or of a servant boy who was not allowed to formally study his host family's MA, and spied, thereby creating that crazy quilt of a style we call "Lost Track." However, as far as cold, hard history goes, the earliest record of the style points to Sung Tung of Shandong province learning and teaching the art in the 1700's. I stick with that as far as history and lineage go.

[Golden Tiger]

You know, all this talk aka bltching and moaning over the number of forms is kind of funny. I remember a time when all that was taught was 30 short forms and a few odds and ends. Then a few new things were released and a fewe more years when by. Then he taught Tai Chi and we were blown away. After that, years passed and nothing new. The hard core people hung around, many left. It wasn't until the 80's that slowly but surely, more and more stuff started coming out. Prior to that, only one person had been shown the "good" stuff.

What most of you don't understand is that for years and years, there wasn't that much material. We all had heard about it but never asked for it. We were happy with the training and the fighting. Then he decided to teach as much as we could take. While noone, with the exception of one or two can remember it all, let alone do it, at least its out there now and won't be lost.

Like it or not gentlemen (and ladies maybe), some of us have spend the majority of our lives following Mster Sin and consider him a great teacher and a great person. So talk until your fingers get tired, you are not going to change anyones mind. Simply as that.



since none of the SD "movers and shakers" are reading this board

Actually, some of them do. And most get a good laugh over it. Heck, you all make me giggle from time to time. And for the record, I am a mover, I sledom ever shake:cool:

[BlueTravesty]

Actually, some of them do. And most get a good laugh over it. Heck, you all make me giggle from time to time. And for the record, I am a mover, I sledom ever shake:cool:

And I think it's safe to say you make "us all" laugh quite a bit too :D

[Golden Tiger]

and what makes you think so?? you could be pretty SH*TY at all of them?? LMAO!!!;o)

You know, i never really considered that. Then again, I might be better than I think I am. Cool, thank TTM:rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

You know, all this talk aka bltching and moaning over the number of forms is kind of funny. I remember a time when all that was taught was 30 short forms and a few odds and ends. Then a few new things were released and a fewe more years when by. Then he taught Tai Chi and we were blown away. After that, years passed and nothing new. The hard core people hung around, many left. It wasn't until the 80's that slowly but surely, more and more stuff started coming out. Prior to that, only one person had been shown the "good" stuff.

What most of you don't understand is that for years and years, there wasn't that much material. We all had heard about it but never asked for it. We were happy with the training and the fighting. Then he decided to teach as much as we could take. While noone, with the exception of one or two can remember it all, let alone do it, at least its out there now and won't be lost.

Like it or not gentlemen (and ladies maybe), some of us have spend the majority of our lives following Mster Sin and consider him a great teacher and a great person. So talk until your fingers get tired, you are not going to change anyones mind. Simply as that.

AMEN :)


Actually, some of them do. And most get a good laugh over it. Heck, you all make me giggle from time to time. And for the record, I am a mover, I sledom ever shake:cool:

It really is a gas

Will you be at the seminar Sat.....I would like to meet you....I should know you are.:cool:

[Judge Pen]

Actually, some of them do. And most get a good laugh over it. Heck, you all make me giggle from time to time. And for the record, I am a mover, I sledom ever shake:cool:

I know you shake from time to time. Hua Tuo's monkey demands it.
:p

[Radhnoti]

Learn - "I would disagree about the "Indochineese approach" as has been suggested."

I've read online discussions of kuntao practicioners saying that the principles are far more important than the specifics in kuntao...GM Sin passes on the principles, usually via the forms and the specifics (phoenix eye vs. willow palm) are secondary. We may actually be agreeing here, though you may be stating that the principles aren't being passed along properly.

Here's a bit from a website describing Willem deThouars "style" of teaching. I'll underline the parts I find similar to SD.

"This extensive period of travel, and Willem's insatiable curiosity, define the learning ethic of the Kun Lun Pai. Pai practitioners are encouraged to examine every aspect of the martial arts, and indeed life in general, to find what works for them. This takes the Bruce Lee philosophy of "absorb what is useful" to the next evolutionary step. The last half of that statement was to "discard the rest." In Willem's approach, nothing is thrown away. Since every individual is different and each situation or opponent is different, no hard and fast absolute laws will apply. What's more, a practitioner's path in the martial arts does not resist the passage of time. A technique that seemed to not work ten years ago, might suddenly find itself useful after it ages in the mind."
"Willem is fond of the word "struggle." In class, he will demonstrate a technique or form, hand it over to the students and say, "O.K., now struggle with it." This is classical old-style teaching. He doesn't give too much mechanical information, because the best teacher is the self. And Willem believes that life is a struggle."
"There has been discussion in the martial arts print media as to whether Kun Tao is an Indonesian, Malaysian, Philippino or Chinese art; the answer is "yes." Kun Tao goes back to ancient China, so it is accurately a Chinese art, but both Chinese and indigenous people in Southeast Asia have practiced and adopted it as their own. And the old men who were trained in what they see as the "pure art" have seen it sanitized and changed; it literally doesn't exist in its original state in China anymore."

[Golden Tiger]

In class, he will demonstrate a technique or form, hand it over to the students and say, "O.K., now struggle with it." This is classical old-style teaching. He doesn't give too much mechanical information, because the best teacher is the self.


Wow....that hits pretty close to home. Rad, you da man


Will you be at the seminar Sat.....I would like to meet you....I should know you are.

Yeah, I will probably sneak in the back or something. Stop by and say hello.

[Lokhopkuen]

Hey SD guys;
I took a photo of a tablet today in Chen village related to Shaolin Do.
I will post it for you all on my return.

Peace

[The Willow Sword]

In class, he will demonstrate a technique or form, hand it over to the students and say, "O.K., now struggle with it." This is classical old-style teaching. He doesn't give too much mechanical information, because the best teacher is the self.

This is the Classical SD method of not knowing what the hell you are teaching and putting it in the hands of those who know even less and trying to figure it out for themselves. This is NOT the classical "old style" of teaching.

Too many forms, not nearly enough time spent on actual mastery, pull a FEW, if that many, techniques out of your butt and teach it out as gold and leave the rest and then move on to the next form uhhh i mean Kata, because guess what, belt testing and fees are right around the corner:rolleyes:

:p TWS

[Baqualin]

Learn - "I would disagree about the "Indochineese approach" as has been suggested."

I've read online discussions of kuntao practicioners saying that the principles are far more important than the specifics in kuntao...GM Sin passes on the principles, usually via the forms and the specifics (phoenix eye vs. willow palm) are secondary. We may actually be agreeing here, though you may be stating that the principles aren't being passed along properly.

Here's a bit from a website describing Willem deThouars "style" of teaching. I'll underline the parts I find similar to SD.

"This extensive period of travel, and Willem's insatiable curiosity, define the learning ethic of the Kun Lun Pai. Pai practitioners are encouraged to examine every aspect of the martial arts, and indeed life in general, to find what works for them. This takes the Bruce Lee philosophy of "absorb what is useful" to the next evolutionary step. The last half of that statement was to "discard the rest." In Willem's approach, nothing is thrown away. Since every individual is different and each situation or opponent is different, no hard and fast absolute laws will apply. What's more, a practitioner's path in the martial arts does not resist the passage of time. A technique that seemed to not work ten years ago, might suddenly find itself useful after it ages in the mind."
"Willem is fond of the word "struggle." In class, he will demonstrate a technique or form, hand it over to the students and say, "O.K., now struggle with it." This is classical old-style teaching. He doesn't give too much mechanical information, because the best teacher is the self. And Willem believes that life is a struggle."
"There has been discussion in the martial arts print media as to whether Kun Tao is an Indonesian, Malaysian, Philippino or Chinese art; the answer is "yes." Kun Tao goes back to ancient China, so it is accurately a Chinese art, but both Chinese and indigenous people in Southeast Asia have practiced and adopted it as their own. And the old men who were trained in what they see as the "pure art" have seen it sanitized and changed; it literally doesn't exist in its original state in China anymore."

Sounds familiar to me!

In Tai Chi for example are not the Classic's the principles and is this not considered the most important thing in mastering Tai Chi, following the classic's?

[Baqualin]

This is the Classical SD method of not knowing what the hell you are teaching and putting it in the hands of those who know even less and trying to figure it out for themselves. This is NOT the classical "old style" of teaching.

Too many forms, not nearly enough time spent on actual mastery, pull a FEW, if that many, techniques out of your butt and teach it out as gold and leave the rest and then move on to the next form uhhh i mean Kata, because guess what, belt testing and fees are right around the corner:rolleyes:

:p TWS

As I've said before....some students cannot see the forest for the trees.:rolleyes:

At least TTM still respects the art of SD and Grand Master Sin.

[tattooedmonk]

As I've said before....some students cannot see the forest for the trees.:rolleyes:

At least TTM still respects the art of SD and Grand Master Sin.forest for the trees ..shaolin ..young forest..LMAO..... now that was good..

........thanx..I think..what do you mean at least?? LMAO

[BlueTravesty]

The "old classical" style of teaching probably didn't include a heck of a lot of forms. According to Adam Hsu (the Sword Polisher's Record) as well as Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo (Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals) forms were not emphasized nearly as much as single-movement training, drilling, and of course, good old Blood Sweat and Tears. Forms were considered a high-level form of training, for those who had learned how to punch and kick, and move properly and were ready to step things up (Adam Hsu likened them to a Master's degree or PhD.) Anyone who has not read those books, by the way, owes it to themselves to get their hands on them- they are both books that (thankfully) don't focus on showing techniques, but focus more on the informative aspects Martial Arts research.

This is not to say that people who do forms without mastering a style are "doing it wrong." It IS to say that a good, solid understanding of body mechanics and movement as well as the rudiments of that style should be grasped before moving on to more forms. And while it's not necessarily the teacher's responsibility to spoon-feed information, it IS up to the teacher to say "You know what, you're not ready to learn Drunken/Mantis/Tiger/Whatever. Keep working on X before moving to Y." Rather than seeing a frustrated student asking about how to correct issues with the form and the teacher repeating Fortune Cookie wisdom about how one must seek their own path.

[tattooedmonk]

You know, i never really considered that. Then again, I might be better than I think I am. Cool, thank TTM:rolleyes:No problem...you know I have a great deal of respect for you and the others that have been following Master Sin for so long through all this bullsh** keep up the good work!!!

[Golden Tiger]

No problem...you know I have a great deal of respect for you and the others that have been following Master Sin for so long through all this bullsh** keep up the good work!!!

If you keep a few steps upwind, its not all that bad.:D

[Flaca]

Well, I hate to say it, but the fu in kung fu means work, right? These people look like they are having way too easy a time.

I guess that's my big gripe with chain schools is they don't seem to produce a quality product. The last school that I went to that had any effort to it was actually Oyama Karate in NYC. Those guys worked out hard. I always went home sore as hell.

Umm, the pictures are of a festival, not of training. One rarely 'trains' with GM Sin. One 'tests' in front of GM Sin, but mostly one learns forms/katas from one of his 40 or so masters.

[Baqualin]

The "old classical" style of teaching probably didn't include a heck of a lot of forms. According to Adam Hsu (the Sword Polisher's Record) as well as Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo (Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals) forms were not emphasized nearly as much as single-movement training, drilling, and of course, good old Blood Sweat and Tears. Forms were considered a high-level form of training, for those who had learned how to punch and kick, and move properly and were ready to step things up (Adam Hsu likened them to a Master's degree or PhD.) Anyone who has not read those books, by the way, owes it to themselves to get their hands on them- they are both books that (thankfully) don't focus on showing techniques, but focus more on the informative aspects Martial Arts research.

This is not to say that people who do forms without mastering a style are "doing it wrong." It IS to say that a good, solid understanding of body mechanics and movement as well as the rudiments of that style should be grasped before moving on to more forms. And while it's not necessarily the teacher's responsibility to spoon-feed information, it IS up to the teacher to say "You know what, you're not ready to learn Drunken/Mantis/Tiger/Whatever. Keep working on X before moving to Y." Rather than seeing a frustrated student asking about how to correct issues with the form and the teacher repeating Fortune Cookie wisdom about how one must seek their own path.

Grand Master Sin taught this way in the 60's and 70's into the early eighties. As he got older I think he realized all the material would be lost if he didn't start teaching it out. Also as the schools began to grow across the country students wanted more upper level forms to compete in kung fu tournaments which were starting to pop up everywhere. So the SD form firehose was born along with the evolution of SD itself. For the old time students this has made us happy.....we can now enjoy the benefits of all those years of drilling and conditioning and dreaming of forms we only heard rumors about.....for the newer students it can be a bit overwhelming. The evolution I see there has been enough material taught out to start specializing in a particular system within SD....this is one of the reasons why GSM has separated the internal from the external. This still has a long way to go and politic's has a tendency to slow things down, but the evolution is happening and I for one am very grateful, I can now following my passion of Tai Chi, Baqua and Hsing I for the rest of my life:D

TTM.....It was a compliment and I think you caught my meaning:cool:

[Citong Shifu]

Umm, the pictures are of a festival, not of training. One rarely 'trains' with GM Sin. One 'tests' in front of GM Sin, but mostly one learns forms/katas from one of his 40 or so masters.


Whatever happened to the Chinese martial arts concept of - one master and one grandmaster???? 40 or so masters????? Dont know....

[Baqualin]

Look, the lineage is silly and contradicts history and Willow Sword showed how Su Kong was a circus attraction named Li Baoshu. You can have all the forms in the world but so can anybody who wants to buy allot of books. The fact is everyone I've seen that has watched Shaolin Do in action, and is a Chinese martial arts expert, says that it isn't even Chinese martial arts, let alone Shaolin Kung Fu. It is clear that you are blinded to reason and that no amount of proof or logic works. The average KFM poster tends to avoid this thread. Most of you Shaolin Doka don't venture out of this thread. Instead, you stay here where you can each re-enforce each others denial instead of listening to reason.

Willow Sword PROVED nothing...go back and review the post.....do you have short term memory loss? Also, I see us and all of the same people on all the forums. And who have you seen that's seen the real us...as a matter of fact you where called out earlier in this thread and I have seen nothing from you to justify your martial knowledge other than your fingers on a keyboard...in the words of EML SHOW ME:rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

Whatever happened to the Chinese martial arts concept of - one master and one grandmaster???? 40 or so masters????? Dont know....

Where are you located in S. Ill. I was born in Cairo and was raised in the Paducah area...maybe sometime when I go home to visit we can meet and trade knowledge...then you can see for youself....we're very open and good people...always willing to learn and share.

[tattooedmonk]

Look, the lineage is silly and contradicts history and Willow Sword showed how Su Kong was a circus attraction named Li Baoshu. You can have all the forms in the world but so can anybody who wants to buy allot of books. The fact is everyone I've seen that has watched Shaolin Do in action, and is a Chinese martial arts expert, says that it isn't even Chinese martial arts, let alone Shaolin Kung Fu. It is clear that you are blinded to reason and that no amount of proof or logic works. The average KFM poster tends to avoid this thread. Most of you Shaolin Doka don't venture out of this thread. Instead, you stay here where you can each re-enforce each others denial instead of listening to reason. Ok this is just gone past rediculous...

you seem to be the one that does not understand that nothing has been proven here to say that Shaolin Do is not real Shaolin ...

you are the person that does not seem to understand simple logic and reason...

you believe too much of what is written and perpetuated by other schools but still have yet to show any reason why we should accept what you say as anything other than bullsh**.

what makes their lineage authentic ?? because it is well known, because it is believed by so many people ,because it is perpetuated by the masses because they wear a certain type of clothing , because they use certain terminology , because they wear shoes?? This does not prove anything

like I said your are talking about the people that will lie just to save face.

I have talked to many people who claim this and that about there lineage ..and yet still can not prove anything ..so what if they have scrolls that say this and that and have pictures this person and that person does it prove anything???


so F**KING what if the lineage is silly, contradicts the history and lineage of other schools , Su Kong is the circus performer Li Bao Shu and the forms are collected out of books.

This does not make it in anyway not real Shaolin.

.....like I said Shaolin is philosophical school of thought who's teachings have been added to, adapted to and modified for centuries. Shaolin has gone back and forth between styles and religious affiliation since Ba tuo was first teaching there and when Bodhidharma took over.

Shaolin is a state of mind, spirit, and body ...away of life......it is not a collection of styles, bulidings, or religions.

the name says it all Shaolin Do -The Way of Shaolin

Even if it eventually is proven that it is all made up by Ie Chang Ming and Master Sin then I will still be here telling you it is still Shaolin and that it is a F**KING ingenius piece of work by the artist who created it !!

As far as your other ramblings I am not going to even bother..

you clearly have nothing better to do with your time .

..but let me make this suggestion.... next time you post here.... first pull your head out of your @$$ .... then proceed.... unless you like the view of your colon.

[godzillakungfu]

Whatever happened to the Chinese martial arts concept of - one master and one grandmaster???? 40 or so masters????? Dont know....

Hmmmm I don't know. This is up for serious debate if you really know your chinese MA history.

[Fei jiao]

Every traditional chinese martial artist I know or even only heard of accepts and recognize real kung fu, whatever the style is. They accept Hung gar, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Fujian White Crane, Tibetan White Crane, Northern Shaolin, Mantis, Lung Yin, Eagle claw etc....as legitimate systems. But if you mention Shaolin-Do they say "what???"
The only people that seem to accept SD as a legitimate style are SD practicionners. I think it's time you guys get a clue.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against what you do, whatever floats your boat. Just don't pretend it's something that it's not, that's all!

[tattooedmonk]

Willow Sword PROVED nothing...go back and review the post.....do you have short term memory loss? Also, I see us and all of the same people on all the forums. And who have you seen that's seen the real us...as a matter of fact you where called out earlier in this thread and I have seen nothing from you to justify your martial knowledge other than your fingers on a keyboard...in the words of EML SHOW ME:rolleyes: To:The Xia...put up or shut the F**K UP!!!..

by the way thanx......I knew what you meant.

[tattooedmonk]

Every traditional chinese martial artist I know or even only heard of accepts and recognize real kung fu, whatever the style is. They accept Hung gar, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Fujian White Crane, Tibetan White Crane, Northern Shaolin, Mantis, Lung Yin, Eagle claw etc....as legitimate systems. But if you mention Shaolin-Do they say "what???"
The only people that seem to accept SD as a legitimate style are SD practicionners. I think it's time you guys get a clue.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against what you do, whatever floats your boat. Just don't pretend it's something that it's not, that's all!you realize that the reason why they say that are superficial reasons and to save face.

it is a completely different lineage and tradition..you should take your own advice ..and get a clue!!

I have been stopped at parks all over by chinese people while wearing my "GI" and asked why I do Chinese martial arts but wear a japanese uniform...

I explain and they understand....this whole different appearence and superficial Sh*t has got you all psychologically all f**ked up....

How come it is that all the critics and judges of the style have never taken a class or attended a seminar with us and have only seen video or read web pages and yet seem to be authorities of what is and what is not..I just do not get it!!

It must be retardation or something....


Oh by the way.....you know that Jow Ga practitoners and San Soo practitioners have a different lineage too...plus they have belt ranking systems..... are they not kung fu or Shaolin??

[Fei jiao]

How come it is that all the critics and judges of the style have never taken a class or attended a seminar with us and have only seen video or read web pages and yet seem to be authorities of what is and what is not..I just do not get it!!

Oh, I've seen the video. A video of Sin The doing what is supposed to be a Praying Mantis form (looked nothing like Mantis to me, and he was so stiff he looked nothing like a grandmaster, but hey, if that suits you, fine!). I've seen the web pages too. And no I haven't taken a seminar and I don't plan to either (espescially after seeing your grandmaster perform).

[Judge Pen]

Most of you Shaolin Doka don't venture out of this thread. Instead, you stay here where you can each re-enforce each others denial instead of listening to reason.

That's not all true. I'd say only 1/3 of my posts are in this thread. :D

[Citong Shifu]

Where are you located in S. Ill. I was born in Cairo and was raised in the Paducah area...maybe sometime when I go home to visit we can meet and trade knowledge...then you can see for youself....we're very open and good people...always willing to learn and share.


Baqualin, Yes, that would ok with me... I would really like to see SD... I have seen one video and lots of SD pics, but nothing that could give me a good idea of what SD really is. Know what I mean.... Anywho, let me know when ur in so. illinois...

Sfiu Ron...

[Yao Sing]

How come it is that all the critics and judges of the style have never taken a class or attended a seminar with us and have only seen video or read web pages...

Something I've been meaning to ask, are SD seminars open to no-SD members?

I don't know enough about SD or the styles it teaches so I can't make any comparisons. I've commented that the local SD guys look like they train just as hard as anyone else in the business.

What I have observed though is the movement and whether the forms are Chinese, Japanese or Burmese the movement itself is much more similar to Japanese Karate than to Chinese Kung Fu.

All humans are built fundamentally the same so techniques can only vary a finite amount. Long weapons and short weapons are interchangeable within each respected group. Hand a Karateka a Kwan Do and I'm sure he could use it effectivily if he has any Naginata training.

What separates them more than anything, I think, is the movement. There is a different flow to most Chinese arts that is missing in SD. I think this is the point a lot of people try to make but the issue of the sets themselves seems to drown it out.

Each stylist will perform according to what he knows. The Japanes turned Zhonguo Chuan Fa into Kenpo, the Indonesians turned Shaolin into Shaolin Do.

[Baqualin]

Baqualin, Yes, that would ok with me... I would really like to see SD... I have seen one video and lots of SD pics, but nothing that could give me a good idea of what SD really is. Know what I mean.... Anywho, let me know when ur in so. illinois...

Sfiu Ron...

Great, I'll email you at the yahoo address so you can get my email and we''ll go from there....plan to be down that way either right before Xmas or right after. Wish all would be as open minded as you...all martial arts are from the same family. Peace

[Baqualin]

Bak Mei video (Zhong Luo performing)
Views: 190 Posted By The Xia
What is the reverse breathing method?

What is the reverse breathing method?

Here's an example of Xia's CMA knowledge:p

[The Xia]

That's not all true. I'd say only 1/3 of my posts are in this thread. :D
Judge Pen, I was not talking about you when I said that. I've seen your posts elsewhere. I was talking about other people on this thread.


Bak Mei video (Zhong Luo performing)
Views: 190 Posted By The Xia
What is the reverse breathing method?

What is the reverse breathing method?

Here's an example of Xia's CMA knowledge:p
If you know what is meant by the reverse breathing method feel free to explain it...in the Southern Forum thread, not here. ;)


As for me "putting up or shutting up", how many times do I have to say it, what I do isn't relevant to this discussion.

[tattooedmonk]

Oh, I've seen the video. A video of Sin The doing what is supposed to be a Praying Mantis form (looked nothing like Mantis to me, and he was so stiff he looked nothing like a grandmaster, but hey, if that suits you, fine!). I've seen the web pages too. And no I haven't taken a seminar and I don't plan to either (espescially after seeing your grandmaster perform). so you are going to judge the whole system, art, and grandmaster on just a few seconds of video and web page pictures? how shallow...

how it looks??

are you really this stupid??

all that matters is how it works in application..... period!!

..you spend all this time judging and being critical yet have no clue as to what you are talking about..

I know the video you are talking about I was there when it was filmed..

it is a hard style of mantis not performance art wushu. our art is done for it's intended purpose first...

all that flowery SH*T will not get it done in a real fight .

I have watched so called kung fu masters get their @$$es handed to them because they thought doing all that pretty CR@P was going to help them...

wrong


..most of what is out there that calls it's self 'KUNGFU" or "Shaolin" is just a joke.

you get up to blue belt in ShaolinDo and and you will have more fighting tools and capabilities than most blackbelts/ sashes in other arts..

so save all your bullsh*t about what you have seen...because you ain't seen nothin' yet...

[Yao Sing]

SD is not classical Karate those of you who say it is , wouldnt know Karate from a hole in the ground. Also the Naginata is a totally different weapon and the principles are not the same as the Kwan Tao that statement is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. KC

Alright, way to transcend the art there KC.

Believe it or not some of us see the similarities where others only see difference. Come back when you've opened your mind a bit.

[Yao Sing]

There I was, standing in an empty room facing 3 armed Karateka. The first had a pair of Tonfa, the second a pair of Sai, and the thrid had a pair of Nunchuku. I backed away slowly looking for an escape route.

My back to a wall I reached up and off the wall I pulled ........











......... a Naginata! My mind raced as I tried understand this foreign weapon. I'm well versed in Chinese weapons, Kwan Do, Long Handle Nine Ring. But this, this strange weapon, was unknown to me. How would I operate this long stick with a blade on the end? What were it's principles?

I knew my time had come.

[tattooedmonk]

Something I've been meaning to ask, are SD seminars open to no-SD members?

I don't know enough about SD or the styles it teaches so I can't make any comparisons. I've commented that the local SD guys look like they train just as hard as anyone else in the business.

What I have observed though is the movement and whether the forms are Chinese, Japanese or Burmese the movement itself is much more similar to Japanese Karate than to Chinese Kung Fu.

All humans are built fundamentally the same so techniques can only vary a finite amount. Long weapons and short weapons are interchangeable within each respected group. Hand a Karateka a Kwan Do and I'm sure he could use it effectivily if he has any Naginata training.

What separates them more than anything, I think, is the movement. There is a different flow to most Chinese arts that is missing in SD. I think this is the point a lot of people try to make but the issue of the sets themselves seems to drown it out.

Each stylist will perform according to what he knows. The Japanes turned Zhonguo Chuan Fa into Kenpo, the Indonesians turned Shaolin into Shaolin Do.no you have to be a student..

all the rest of this is true..

it is the movement and the outward appearences

you take some one from SD and have them do the tiger crane duet and someone who does Hung gar and you will find that the one looks japanese( hard and rigid) and one looks chinese ( soft and fluid) the form is still from chinese origin.... and all that matters is whether it works or not ...right??

there are benefits from doing it both ways ( yin yang principle.)

does it not stand to reason considering the history and lineage that it would look like karate to hide the fact that it is chinese so that it could be taught in Indonesia??? I mean think about it.....

[Flying-Monkey]

no you have to be a student..

all the rest of this is true..

it is the movement and the outward appearences

you take some one from SD and have them do the tiger crane duet and someone who does Hung gar and you will find that the one looks japanese( hard and rigid) and one looks Chinese ( soft and fluid) the form is still from Chinese origin.... and all that matters is whether it works or not ...right??

there are benefits from doing it both ways ( yin yang principle.)

does it not stand to reason considering the history and lineage that it would look like karate to hide the fact that it is Chinese so that it could be taught in Indonesia??? I mean think about it.....

I disagree. Hung gar's tiger/crane is not soft. The SD version does not look like a variation. It looks like the person does not fully understand it.

With kung fu, it doesn't matter if it works or not. I know that sounds crazy, but it is true. There is a lot of bad kung fu. What I mean by bad is that I feel that style is useless. However, it is kung fu. My opinion is that a lot kung fu styles don't work. SD may or may not work, but just because it works well does not make it kung fu.

Long ago, SD might of had a Chinese base (I strongly doubt it). HOWEVER, it is not kung fu now

[lunghushan]

I disagree. Hung gar's tiger/crane is not soft. The SD version does not look like a variation. It looks like the person does not fully understand it.

With kung fu, it doesn't matter if it works or not. I know that sounds crazy, but it is true. There is a lot of bad kung fu. What I mean by bad is that I feel that style is useless. However, it is kung fu. My opinion is that a lot kung fu styles don't work. SD may or may not work, but just because it works well does not make it kung fu.

Long ago, SD might of had a Chinese base (I strongly doubt it). HOWEVER, it is not kung fu now

So it really is even worse than the # of sets ... they do all their sets the same, like KARATE???

They don't do their taiji like karate, do they?

[kungfujunky]

no we are not like karate.

on a trip to china there was an old chinese man performing for our group. he did a straight sword form that was exactly like ours. he did a hsing yi linkage form that was exactly like ours...how would this old man know our material if it was japanese or indonesian karate?

the migration of our kung fu has added flavors to it that make people think that it is not in fact kung fu. but what we do is in fact kung fu.

does all mantis look the same? no

does all tai chi look the same? no

does all hsing yi look the same? no

there are differences in everything cma.

every village has differences. every temple as well. to say you know what cma looks like is just silly. even robert smith claimed vehemently that their were no southern temples in china. and then lo and behold not 1 but 3 temples surface (just as sd has claimed since the late 60's.....odd conicidence that one).

if you dont like what we do fine..but dont pretend to be experts on something that is an oral history and tradition no matter what "style" you follow.

you say other people accept hung gar white crane etc as real cma...well we do all those systems in sd..we are not a system of kung fu. we cover all systems....if you want to focus on one style then sd isnt for you plain and simple. if you want to taste all that kung fu offers then drop by and check us out.

we train hard and we have fun!

[The Xia]

It'd be beneficial to the discussion to post videos of Sin The on this thread. If anyone has any, put them here. After all, he is the highest ranking member of Shaolin Do is he not?

[lunghushan]

we train hard and we have fun!

Well, good for you.

I still can't believe that people buy the entire story with those pics and everything, but whatever. :)

[Judge Pen]

It'd be beneficial to the discussion to post videos of Sin The on this thread. If anyone has any, put them here. After all, he is the highest ranking member of Shaolin Do is he not?

Yes, but, candidly, he is not the best forms person. The people that I would offer up are not interested in putting their material out in a public forum. In their mind, they have nothing to gain. So all I can do is give you a shoddy example in me.

[lunghushan]

Yes, but, candidly, he is not the best forms person. The people that I would offer up are not interested in putting their material out in a public forum. In their mind, they have nothing to gain. So all I can do is give you a shoddy example in me.

Your kwan do form didn't look bad -- it just seemed like the stances were a bit high.

Anyway, whatever. I personally am not going to take Shaolin-Do but if a bunch of people want to do it, whatever.

Couldn't be any worse than USSD or something.

[godzillakungfu]

I can find some of the sets in other arts. I have found our linkage and our version of the 2 man set done by a respected Xingyi practitioner. I have also found the exact version of all the roads of Hua minus #4. Modern Hua was created by GMT according to two individuals on the west.

I said it way back in the thread. I feel GMT has legit MA training that, is why I respect GMT. Now, whether it is all shaolin or added shaolin is up for debate.

I have my opinions on the shaolin part, that I tend to keep off the thread.

Its funny because, I've been subject of, part of, or the actual person in 4 of the bigger rumors on this entire combined thread.

[lunghushan]

Its funny because, I've been subject of, part of, or the actual person in 4 of the bigger rumors on this entire combined thread.

What, are you saying you're the hairy guy in the photo?

[Yao Sing]

no we are not like karate.

on a trip to china there was an old chinese man performing for our group. he did a straight sword form that was exactly like ours. he did a hsing yi linkage form that was exactly like ours...how would this old man know our material if it was japanese or indonesian karate?

Ok, let's get the points together and not jump around so much. You say SD is not like Karate but then go on with an example showing how it isn't exactly Karate.

The argument is that SD is performed like Karate. Whether the sets are Japanese or Chinese is a distinctly different argument.

Now in your eyes, and your opinion, SD is not at all like Karate but to many others outside SD the practitioners move more like Karate than Kung Fu. And these others for the most part have extensive training to back them up. Some with training in both Japanese and Chinese arts.

Seems like the only ones that don't believe it looks like Karate are the SD folks.

Personally I don't care either way. It's just an interesting puzzle to solve.

[lunghushan]

The puzzle is how people get duped into these big chain schools. That's the puzzle.

We talked about that a lot on the Oom Young Doe thread. Basically they have no prior experience and don't know any better.

It's quite a concept if you think about it. Do you think the reason these people like Sin The can succeed so well is that nobody can track down their lineage because they started so long ago?

It seems these days you'd have a much harder time because people could track down your story.

[Leto]

I've got to speak up here, too. The forms taught in shaolin do are not like karate kata at all. People on here are talking about these martial arts that they don't seem to have any knowledge of. Are we talking Okinawan karate, or the derived Japanese methods? Naha te, or Shuri te? Or generic American karate/kempo? I can tell you that shaolin do has neither Okinawan nor Japanese material in its curriculum. The closest thing would be the way some of the lower belt techniques are taught as one-step sparring. None of the forms are even close. The most "karate-like" thing are the unforms and belts (which have nothing to do with the material itself).

Another random point...naginata do is not a part of karate do, it is a Japanese koryu/budo. Karate is an Okinawan art that was exported to Japan in the 20th century. Okinawan karate is derived from old styles of Chinese martial arts, including southern shaolin styles. Some Okinawan styles, like Uechi Ryu, are still very close to their Chinese roots.

If you practice a style of karate, and have also practiced shaolin do, and have found matching material please speak up. What style do you practice? What kata does your style have that are also in shaolin do?

[lunghushan]

I've got to speak up here, too. The forms taught in shaolin do are not like karate kata at all.

...

If you practice a style of karate, and have also practiced shaolin do, and have found matching material please speak up. What style do you practice? What kata does your style have that are also in shaolin do?

Do people actually READ the forum? What was said that the way the katas were done, the body movement, body method, "shen fa" was like karate. Nobody said the katas were karate katas.

[kungfujunky]

So it really is even worse than the # of sets ... they do all their sets the same, like KARATE???

They don't do their taiji like karate, do they?

ummm you said that

[BentMonk]

http://iron-body.com/bboard/index.php/topic,370.0.html

This is why I feel that nearly all lineage claims made by anyone should be taken with a grain of salt and not used as any real measure of authenticity or effectiveness. My 12 years in SD have given me strength, flexibility (well, more than I had when I started, which was none), improved balance and coordination, a well conditioned body, a more focused mind, the ability to defend myself and my family, and a second family. This is more than I asked for when I started. If I had not gotten these things, I would not still be training there, regardless of what the CMA or any other community thought about SD. The fact that I have gotten all of these things from SD is why I continue to train there despite the constant beating of this poor horse. I think my posts on this thread, and everywhere else on the net show that I am neither naive or stupid. The people on this thread and I are not the only ones who feel this way about SD. There are a few thousand people besides us. :D I direct your attention back to the link I posted above before you sing me the "no one said it wasn't beneficial, it's just not CMA" song. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program already in progress. :D

[Learn]

I would agree that SD is not Karate. I've studied Japanese arts and it's not the same. The use of Japanese terms does cause confusion however. Radhnoti, your quotes from de Thouars (sp?) are interesting and relevant. However, SD does not purport to teach principles in depth, but a large number of forms. It is simply ridiculous to think that learning many forms from many styles also enables one to learn the principles of those styles in depth. I'm all for learning the relevant concepts of many different styles, but you should market yourself as such. That's where SD goes awry. The whole lineage thing, which really means nothing to me, is so ridiculous and fantastical. SD does itself no favors with it. If Sin The has mastered certain arts, great, teach them. But to suggest that by studying SD you can learn all of these different arts, which is how it is taught, is not credible. To suggest you can study a particular art in detail assumes that your teacher has mastered all of them and you can pick and choose, which is not the case.

[Learn]

Learning forms is not learning the principles. Forms are a catalog of techniques. The strategies and principles must be taught beyond the forms. The forms are stepping stones to understanding. That's why you can't learn a style by video. You need an instructor to explain the nuances of every movement. This assumes that forms are a good way to learn a martial art, about which there is significant debate. I did a pretty good dao form in my day. I still love working Chinese sword. However, it really didn't teach me to fight with it.

Judge Pen, saw your Quan Do form on video. Congratulations. You did a nice job with a very difficult weapon. I used to practice that form with a homemade weapon made by an assistant instructor with a torch. It must have weighed forty pounds. I don't regret practicing that form. It makes you strong. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

But do you really think you could fight with that weapon based on that form? It seems to me a relevant question to this discussion.

[lunghushan]

ummm you said that

No, I did NOT. I said 'do it like karate'. Do you even understand the distinction? Do you even understand how the body movement behind Yang taiji for example is different from karate?

[lunghushan]

It seems like what we're dealing with here is people who have had exposure to 'Shaolin-Do'. They do Shaolin-Do. They do dozens of katas, all the same.

They don't have any understanding of stance work or anything like that.

This seems obvious because they don't even understand the distinction between a karate kata and doing it like karate.

Their master has NO videos of his movements (surprise), so who can really tell. Anyway, whatever.

If Shaolin-Do people are having fun at what they do and they like it, then who are we to criticize them? They are just another chain school.

[Learn]

It is unfortunate that SD purports, or maybe purported, itself to be a type of karate, for marketing purposes because at some time karate was the thing to do in the US. In the seventies, Kung Fu became the buzzword. It's interesting that SD didn't latch onto that. Ultimately the disappointment is that SD didn't just market itself and not latch onto what was big at the time. But perhaps the ultimate disapointment is that someone marketed himself as the grandmaster of all the shaolin styles, the animals, ba gau, tai ji, hsing i, the weapons, etc, when such is obviously impossible.

[BentMonk]

Geez...I post a link to a really good article on the history of CMA, and you guys are still arguing semantics. :rolleyes:

[kungfujunky]

lung you are a bitter man lol

all we do is stances lol

in our warmups in our training in our forms in our sparring in everything we work stances

next assumed idea please.

or better yet quit pretending to know and go see a class.

[lunghushan]

Geez...I post a link to a really good article on the history of CMA, and you guys are still arguing semantics. :rolleyes:

It's not semantics. I shudder to think what your forms must be like if you don't even understand how Yang taiji body movement is different from karate. Not the FORM, the body movement.

Anyways, whatever. I won't waste any more time on this. If what you do works for you, then whatever. USSD has tons of students too. As does Temple Kung Fu. As does Oom Young Doe and all those chain schools.

[kungfujunky]

Geez...I post a link to a really good article on the history of CMA, and you guys are still arguing semantics. :rolleyes:


do you have this book bent? if so is it worth the money because i am very close to paying up for it!

lmk either in pm or here

[lunghushan]

lung you are a bitter man lol

all we do is stances lol

in our warmups in our training in our forms in our sparring in everything we work stances

next assumed idea please.

or better yet quit pretending to know and go see a class.

You know, I'll NEVER go see one of your classes. After talking to you it's obvious you're clueless. I've been to USSD, Temple Kung Fu, Oom Young Doe. It's obvious you're just another chain school.

[kungfujunky]

You know, I'll NEVER go see one of your classes. After talking to you it's obvious you're clueless. I've been to USSD, Temple Kung Fu, Oom Young Doe. It's obvious you're just another chain school.



and i knew you would never go see a class. you are to happy being wrapped in your assumptions to want to see it for yourself.

keep calling us chain schools lol

we wont take the bait. you need to relax man.

when im up in seattle for the next masters festival i would be happy to meet in a park and demonstrate our stuff for you.

:) ;)

[lunghushan]

and i knew you would never go see a class. you are to happy being wrapped in your assumptions to want to see it for yourself.

keep calling us chain schools lol

we wont take the bait. you need to relax man.

when im up in seattle for the next masters festival i would be happy to meet in a park and demonstrate our stuff for you.

:) ;)

It's okay. Whenever I need my chain-school fix I go visit the local USSD which is only 2 blocks away.

[kungfujunky]

have fun then

but ill still post on here when ill be up there if you ever want to actually see what you dont know

[lunghushan]

I've been to taiji schools. Yang Family taiji headquarters is in my town. I've been to xingyi schools. I've been to bagua schools. I've been to Hung Gar schools.

I don't need to go to Shaolin-Do.

I barely got out of Temple Kung-Fu alive. I don't want to go through that debacle again.

[Yao Sing]

I have trained in Okinawan and Japanese Karate for greater than 13 years as well as aikido and Ju Jitsu and I assure you SD is not Karate ...

Ok, then maybe you can offer an explanation why it's performed like Karate.


... the transmission of power and Philosophy of movement is in no way similar ...

So why does it look so similar to anyone with any MA training? You guys seem to see something that nobody outside your group seems to see. And why is it such an insult to you guys to be compared to Karate?


I trained under Nishiyama Okazaki and others as well as Uchi Deshi Of Morehei Usheba founder of Aikido now why dont you open your mind and admit you havent seen it all and dont know everything KC

That's not hard to admit, I haven't seen it all and I don't know everything. The thing is I never made either of those claims so why did you bother to say that?

[kungfujunky]

then i would be honored if you would meet up and exchange ideas. let me kow what im missing.

[godzillakungfu]

What, are you saying you're the hairy guy in the photo?
Uhmmm rumor is something basically unsubstantiated.

The hairy guy existed so, that doesn't qualify as a rumor.:p

[lunghushan]

then i would be honored if you would meet up and exchange ideas. let me kow what im missing.

We don't need to meet up ... there's something called Youtube now.

Mas Oyama, Karate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FteS-NxwXsA

Cheng Man Ching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLxMPIVAlo

Dai Xingyi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdrrolaThc8

Bagua:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM

Adam Hsu Bagua:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD1CKp0QkvM&mode=related&search=

Liu Jingru Bagua:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOG6qXUGAWM&mode=related&search=

[kungfujunky]

the yang tai chi is nearly exactly how we do it...little less stop and go though although chen is awesome to watch. i actually find his sticky hand sparring clips more informational as far as content

the sparring in the karate clip was rough to say the least...we guard ourselves much better than that but i do see where our 1 step practices could be confused with karate..very linear movements.


the dai hsing yi clip was interesting...do you believe that is good hsing yi or just ok? to me he looked to be off center...his balance was forward and there was no rooting. thats an interesting style of hsing yi.....


the adam pa kua clip looked a lot like what we do. do you know the roots of that particualr style of pa kua?

what style was liu demoing? he didnt seem to be coiled at all and his circle was all over the place...is that what the form was supposed to be like? it looked almost snake like but i havent seen snake pa kua so i cant tell for sure

the jiang style pa kua was ok..his circle was more an oval.


maybe we do learn pa kua wrong. we do our pa kua in exact circles (or try to anyways lol) certainly we contain our stepping better than what those clips showed

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=lunghushan;705350]I've been to taiji schools. Yang Family taiji headquarters is in my town. I've been to xingyi schools. I've been to bagua schools. I've been to Hung Gar schools.

I don't need to go to Shaolin-Do.

I barely got out of Temple Kung-Fu alive. I don't want to go through that debacle again.[/QUO

Seems nobody can please you:confused: ...we're not asking you to come to Shaolin Do....just responding to your slams of something you really know nothing of.....we're only offering to show you the real thing in person....which from what I see above wouldn't matter anyway.

If your ever in Lexington stop by the SD school and I'll show you all the Tai Chi ( Yang or Chen ) Baqua, And Hsing I you want to see....I'm not just talking forms, we can push hands incorporating point strikes, chin na and sweeps.....discuss applications, the classic's , silk reeling, fa jing, proper biomechanics for power generation and to prevent stinging knees & joint damage when doing postures and a whole lot more......you can even join in the class......plus I promise you that you will leave alive.

[lunghushan]

Seems nobody can please you:confused: ...we're not asking you to come to Shaolin Do....just responding to your slams of something you really know nothing of.....we're only offering to show you the real thing in person....which from what I see above wouldn't matter anyway.

If your ever in Lexington stop by the SD school and I'll show you all the Tai Chi ( Yang or Chen ) Baqua, And Hsing I you want to see....I'm not just talking forms, we can push hands incorporating point strikes, chin na and sweeps.....discuss applications, the classic's , silk reeling, fa jing, proper biomechanics for power generation and to prevent stinging knees & joint damage when doing postures and a whole lot more......you can even join in the class......plus I promise you that you will leave alive.

Lexington ... Kentucky? I don't think I will ever be in Kentucky.

Well if you know everything, then fine ... I'm not trying to slam you, I just don't believe it's humanly possible. I'm not going to go to Kentucky to find out, though. :)

Bottom line is ... I don't believe it ... if it makes you feel better I'll go visit Sarah's school in Seattle. But I'm not expecting anything better than USSD.

[Citong Shifu]

[QUOTE=lunghushan;705350]I've been to taiji schools. Yang Family taiji headquarters is in my town. I've been to xingyi schools. I've been to bagua schools. I've been to Hung Gar schools.

I don't need to go to Shaolin-Do.

I barely got out of Temple Kung-Fu alive. I don't want to go through that debacle again.[/QUO

Seems nobody can please you:confused: ...we're not asking you to come to Shaolin Do....just responding to your slams of something you really know nothing of.....we're only offering to show you the real thing in person....which from what I see above wouldn't matter anyway.

If your ever in Lexington stop by the SD school and I'll show you all the Tai Chi ( Yang or Chen ) Baqua, And Hsing I you want to see....I'm not just talking forms, we can push hands incorporating point strikes, chin na and sweeps.....discuss applications, the classic's , silk reeling, fa jing, proper biomechanics for power generation and to prevent stinging knees & joint damage when doing postures and a whole lot more......you can even join in the class......plus I promise you that you will leave alive.


Does Temple Kung Fu have a website????

[Baqualin]

Lexington ... Kentucky? I don't think I will ever be in Kentucky.

Well if you know everything, then fine ... I'm not trying to slam you, I just don't believe it's humanly possible. I'm not going to go to Kentucky to find out, though. :)

Bottom line is ... I don't believe it ... if it makes you feel better I'll go visit Sarah's school in Seattle. But I'm not expecting anything better than USSD.

I never said I know everything and no one that I know in SD is claiming to master everything, I only study the internal side of SD now and wanted you to see that SD is lush with very knowledgeable and varied martial artist with a lot of choices on the direction of study........SD is not for everybody and we have our politic's, but we're not a franchise school...every school is different and this can also be a problem when there's no standardization in training methods, so there's bad SD schools out there, but the majority are very good...there's more to us than you realize.

I watched your video list...the cheng man ching form is our 64 form we just do it slower in a very meditative way and with lower postures ( I'm sure he did too when he was younger).
Cheng was one of the last great tai chi masters...his chi level was very high.

The Jiang Baqua form is our entry level form...he only did one side of the sections shown- I posted the lineage for this in an earlier post. He has very nice form

The Dai Hsing I, I didn't like at all I agree with kung fu junky.....that much weight foward is asking for trouble.

the other Hsingi clips were really good...very close to what we do....I really liked Beng Quan - Wood

Adam Hsu always awesome

Once again I'm not trying to win you over to SD....we're just really good people and would rather share than throw s^^*%& at each other. Look around the threads we like to dicuss and learn not slam styles. we get enough of that on us.:)

[Green Cloud]

WTF is a Citong Sifu or Citung Shaolin???

[lunghushan]

Does Temple Kung Fu have a website????

Something happened with Temple Kung Fu around here. They split into a bunch of other schools.

You won't get anything off their website.

http://www.kungfutemple.com/

Basically I went there and for some reason joined even though it was some sort of contract. I think I signed up for 3 months -- I can't remember. They had only private lessons. They assigned me a younger guy as a teacher (which I didn't expect), and had me do basic stance work.

It seemed a waste of time, and there was no partner work at all, no drills, no forms, nothing, so I complained that they had none of those things and it wasn't good workout.

So next class he had me do everything lower. Basically thighs parallel to the ground. I explained I wanted some sort of aerobic workout or at least form work.

So next class he had me do some sort of taiji thing. He said it was very advanced. I have no idea.

Anyway, so I found some legal loophole in the contract. I can't remember what, and quit.

They hounded me, called me for weeks, so I called them back finally and had it out with them, and they still called me for weeks. That's what I mean by barely making it out alive. LOL

It could be something good -- I have no idea. It was just way too boring.

[lunghushan]

I watched your video list...the cheng man ching form is our 64 form we just do it slower in a very meditative way and with lower postures ( I'm sure he did too when he was younger).

Cheng was one of the last great tai chi masters...his chi level was very high.

The Jiang Baqua form is our entry level form...he only did one side of the sections shown- I posted the lineage for this in an earlier post. He has very nice form

The Dai Hsing I, I didn't like at all I agree with kung fu junky.....that much weight foward is asking for trouble.

the other Hsingi clips were really good...very close to what we do....I really liked Beng Quan - Wood

Adam Hsu always awesome

Once again I'm not trying to win you over to SD....we're just really good people and would rather share than throw s^^*%& at each other. Look around the threads we like to dicuss and learn not slam styles. we get enough of that on us.:)

Yeah, Dai Xingyi is pretty weird, I agree.

You know, after this posts, I totally do not believe the Shaolin-Do lineage story at all. What are the chances that Sin The learned all those forms, the same ones, in Indonesia from some hidden Shaolin lineage?

Zero. That's the chances. There's just no way at all. Those are not Shaolin forms at all. None of them.

Anyway, I won't judge your school, but I don't buy the story at all. There's just no way.

[kungfujunky]

and your basis for this assumption?

because you may not be able to learn that amount of material does not mean someone else couldnt.

i have posted about this before.

gmt knows this material. and knows it well. he did not learn this stuff from a book. his ability to teach it and answer questions about any little part basically shoots down the whole book theory people throw out there.

he did learn this material.

at worst i think ie chang ming may not have been 100% forthright about where he got the material from but it is cma and it is real.

[BM2]

Its funny because, I've been subject of, part of, or the actual person in 4 of the bigger rumors on this entire combined thread.


Originally Posted by lunghushan
What, are you saying you're the hairy guy in the photo?

[lunghushan]

and your basis for this assumption?

because you may not be able to learn that amount of material does not mean someone else couldnt.

i have posted about this before.

gmt knows this material. and knows it well. he did not learn this stuff from a book. his ability to teach it and answer questions about any little part basically shoots down the whole book theory people throw out there.

he did learn this material.

at worst i think ie chang ming may not have been 100% forthright about where he got the material from but it is cma and it is real.

Those are NOT Shaolin forms. You don't find it a little convenient that the Yang Taiji, from CMC, who MODIFIED the form and created his OWN version is the same version that you guys teach? That your form is the same as Jiang bagua? That's not Shaolin. Nothing on that list is Shaolin.

Anyway ... whatever. I'm not saying what you do is bad -- I have no idea. But I'm not buying the story of Sin The learning all of that in Indonesia as a Shaolin lineage. That's all.

[Golden Tiger]

If Shaolin-Do people are having fun at what they do and they like it, then who are we to criticize them?

Uhhhh....then why do you continue to?:rolleyes:


Anyways, whatever. I won't waste any more time on this. If what you do works for you, then whatever.

Uhhhh...thats the second time you have said that. And yet..:rolleyes: You lack mental discipline grasshopper.:D


I've been to taiji schools. Yang Family taiji headquarters is in my town. I've been to xingyi schools. I've been to bagua schools. I've been to Hung Gar schools.


I think we should be training with you. You seem to have studied it all.

Sorry Lung, I am just in a playful mood this morning and you seem to provide a wealth of quotes.

[Golden Tiger]

Bagua:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM

Very interesting. This is the first time I have seen the Classical form done by someone outside of SD. As was stated already, we do the form a tad different (same circle on both sides,level 1 training anyway, uniform number of steps between each circle, more defined movements) but other than that, I see very little difference.

Interesting indeed.

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen, saw your Quan Do form on video. Congratulations. You did a nice job with a very difficult weapon. I used to practice that form with a homemade weapon made by an assistant instructor with a torch. It must have weighed forty pounds. I don't regret practicing that form. It makes you strong. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

But do you really think you could fight with that weapon based on that form? It seems to me a relevant question to this discussion.

It's a very relevant question (one that goes to the heart of TMA practice with traditional weapons). Now it's not like I would have a kwan dao laying around if I'm mugged nor do I expect to be in a live action recreation of Dynasty Warriors any-time soon, but yes I think I can take the techniques out of Kwan Dao and apply them.

Ideally, practing the Kwan Dao form builds strength and dexterity. It also teaches you to use the momentum of a larger weapon to keep flowing with it (you may or may not see that from my performance). Any long item that is heavier on one end could be used that way. Thus, the basic cuts and changes of direction could be applied in "real" situation.

The problem is no one practices weapon sparring to any degree. Not with spear, chani-whips, Kwand daos etc. You get some sword play, staff and short stick play, knife play, but these larger battlefield weapons are left to aestic forms and the occassional two-man set or contrived "fight routine" in most TMA training.

[Radhnoti]

If you look around, just a little, you'll be amazed at how many kuntao schools claim historic links to Shaolin.

I'd agree with whoever said shaolin-do is unlike today's kung-fu. I'd also agree with whoever said SD is shaolin that was changed as it passed through Indonesia, I'd also add that it was changed in the U.S. Keep in mind, a lot of shaolin-do higher ups I've heard talking about "respected" kung-fu call it "competition wushu", "flowery and pointless movement" or "communist chinese influenced". SD (and many kuntao styles) feel the kungfu that migrated to Indo-China kept the martial intent that was lost to styles physically closer to China's cultural revolution.

[Baqualin]

Those are NOT Shaolin forms. You don't find it a little convenient that the Yang Taiji, from CMC, who MODIFIED the form and created his OWN version is the same version that you guys teach? That your form is the same as Jiang bagua? That's not Shaolin. Nothing on that list is Shaolin.

Anyway ... whatever. I'm not saying what you do is bad -- I have no idea. But I'm not buying the story of Sin The learning all of that in Indonesia as a Shaolin lineage. That's all.

OK...no one is claiming that the Bagua...Tai Chi....Hsing I are Shaolin forms...Shaolin was and is the library of Alexandria of martial arts.....there were forms developed in the temple and outside of the temple.....I recently saw a youtube of the modern monks doing their Tai Chi....it was chen and it was obvious
AS far as the Cheng form I had a Chinese girl friend who for a few years lived in Taiwan and her boy friend was an older man who is a Tai Chi master.... he taught her the cheng form and called it 64 like we do....she also studied with a lady who was also a Tai Chi master and learned our sword form move for move. the point I making is that Cheng ( according to history) did his changes over here not in China and they called the form 64 Tai Chi in Taiwan not the Cheng form.....so the history there also has holes in it. It is also well known in our history that GMIe picked up other forms in his travels thru China and from his colleagues in Indonesia. It wasn't just GSM and GMIe, our forms came from a whole group of Chinese Martial artist's who were part of the same school, Ie was just the Grand Master who some are still living. Just recently a student of GMS's went to Indonesia with him, meet and filmed one of his colleague's....she believes! All true Masters have learned from more than one person. That's why it's Shaolin Do...the way of the Shaolin. We have a wealth of real Chinese forms and systems.....it's up to each student where we head with it and some of us do pretty well. We have nothing to hide come see us. It's nice to be able to trace the lineage of our forms....it makes them more real.;) Peace

[tattooedmonk]

I disagree. Hung gar's tiger/crane is not soft. The SD version does not look like a variation. It looks like the person does not fully understand it.

With kung fu, it doesn't matter if it works or not. I know that sounds crazy, but it is true. There is a lot of bad kung fu. What I mean by bad is that I feel that style is useless. However, it is kung fu. My opinion is that a lot kung fu styles don't work. SD may or may not work, but just because it works well does not make it kung fu.

Long ago, SD might of had a Chinese base (I strongly doubt it). HOWEVER, it is not kung fu nowI believe that tiger crane is a hard style ..but most of the people I have seen do not do it that way...it was just a comparison to Sd.

Kung fu just means time and effort or hard work...it is misused to describe chinese arts

[BlueTravesty]

If you look around, just a little, you'll be amazed at how many kuntao schools claim historic links to Shaolin.

I'd agree with whoever said shaolin-do is unlike today's kung-fu. I'd also agree with whoever said SD is shaolin that was changed as it passed through Indonesia, I'd also add that it was changed in the U.S. Keep in mind, a lot of shaolin-do higher ups I've heard talking about "respected" kung-fu call it "competition wushu", "flowery and pointless movement" or "communist chinese influenced". SD (and many kuntao styles) feel the kungfu that migrated to Indo-China kept the martial intent that was lost to styles physically closer to China's cultural revolution.

Really? I think the biggest impact that CMA have suffered- as far as intent goes anyway- was probably when foreigners started carving China up into "Spheres of Influence." In confrontations against the guns of the Europeans (particularly during the Boxer Rebellion) many a martial artist discovered that no technique can make one bulletproof (in the case of the Yi Ho Chuan, they learned that the hard way.) Needless to say, this happened a LONG time before the cultural revolution.

As I've pointed out before, a LOT if not most Kung Fu lineages go back to Taiwan (mostly Long Fist, Praying Mantis, Baji, Pigua, Taiji, Bagua, etc.) or Hong Kong (Hung Gar, Wing Chun, more Praying Mantis, MyJhong:D, etc.) Taiwan has little-to-nothing to do with Modern Wushu, as the old wounds are still too deep. Hong Kong's participation in Modern Wushu is VERY recent, as Hong Kong only got a team together a few years ago. The only non-Wushu lineages I've heard of coming to America directly from the mainland was one particular Choy Lee Fut branch I read about, though I can't remember the name of it. However, anyone who has seen CLF will see more similarities to San Shou than Modern Wushu ;) So like Kuntao, claims to these systems being Wushu-influenced can only come from the occasional practitioner of them who might also dabble in Wushu.

[godzillakungfu]

Originally Posted by lunghushan
What, are you saying you're the hairy guy in the photo?
I like how you found the two quotes but, missed my response.

[godzillakungfu]

Very interesting. This is the first time I have seen the Classical form done by someone outside of SD. As was stated already, we do the form a tad different (same circle on both sides,level 1 training anyway, uniform number of steps between each circle, more defined movements) but other than that, I see very little difference.

Interesting indeed.

Wow, this gentleman is very interesting. I'm surprised you haven't researched him GT. We have a few forms that are very close to his in Hsing-I and Bagua.

[Radhnoti]

BT, I was just giving my impression of what SDers think of a lot of kungfu. In SD a GREAT DEAL of weight is given to the expected effectiveness of what's being taught. (If you'll forgive me, I'll repeat my mantra for this thread here: Like in a LOT of kuntao schools.) I suspect shaolin-do DID change in Indonesia and perhaps as much in the U.S. It's my opinion that it's not kungfu...after all, the styles you mentioned have ended up defining that word and SD isn't any of those. It IS my opinion that SD is historically linked to shaolin...
I don't think SDers get upset about people not believing SD is kungfu, I think they get upset when people assume they have no legit link to China. GM The's family is CHINESE and Chinese people who lived in Indonesia stuck with the OTHER Chinese immigrants in small communities. It's silly for people to assume he learned karate when it's relatively certain he'd have had access to people with Chinese martial art backgrounds.

[tattooedmonk]

all this talk about mastering the art is rediculous...Shaolin is about mastering the self...

what is the definiton of what is kung fu and not kung fu??

Hey the xia...where are your videos of you doing some 'KUNGFU""??

[tattooedmonk]

It is unfortunate that SD purports, or maybe purported, itself to be a type of karate, for marketing purposes because at some time karate was the thing to do in the US. In the seventies, Kung Fu became the buzzword. It's interesting that SD didn't latch onto that. Ultimately the disappointment is that SD didn't just market itself and not latch onto what was big at the time. But perhaps the ultimate disapointment is that someone marketed himself as the grandmaster of all the shaolin styles, the animals, ba gau, tai ji, hsing i, the weapons, etc, when such is obviously impossible.
actually it has been called karate for many years..Master sin just calls it shaolin do..it is more than just martial arts...karate use to mean China hand...I wonder why.

Grandmaster is the title given as the holder of the system..it would be impossible for anyone to master 900+ forms or 50+ styles..

Master Sin said he has been practicing Chen Tai Ji Quan for over 35 years and still has yet to master it...

martialarts / shaolin is not about mastering forms, techniques, or systems it is about mastering the self

[tattooedmonk]

Ok, then maybe you can offer an explanation why it's performed like Karate.



So why does it look so similar to anyone with any MA training? You guys seem to see something that nobody outside your group seems to see. And why is it such an insult to you guys to be compared to Karate?



That's not hard to admit, I haven't seen it all and I don't know everything. The thing is I never made either of those claims so why did you bother to say that?it is influenced by karate remember the lineage/history ..would it not stand to reason that to hide the art it would also have to look like karate and not"' kungfu"??

actually karate is a respectable art no one that really does the art cares what is called beyond Shaolin Do ..it is karate it is kung fu it is chuan fa it is also none of these

[tattooedmonk]

What Is Your Definiton Of What Shaolin Is And Is Not ??
What Is Your Definition Of What Kung Fu Is Or Is Not??
What Is Your Definition Of What Is Right And What Is Wrong??
Why Is It ABOUT SD THAT Brings Out The B*tch In All Other Martial Artist??
Why Does Anyone Out Side Of Sd Care What We Do??
Whyis It That You All Whine So Much About Total Bullsh**?

For All You Doubters...stfu!!

[lunghushan]

Uhhhh....then why do you continue to?:rolleyes:

Uhhhh...thats the second time you have said that. And yet..:rolleyes: You lack mental discipline grasshopper.:D

I think we should be training with you. You seem to have studied it all.

Sorry Lung, I am just in a playful mood this morning and you seem to provide a wealth of quotes.

I didn't say I studied at all those places. I have been to them. I didn't study at all of them.

[lunghushan]

That's why it's Shaolin Do...the way of the Shaolin. We have a wealth of real Chinese forms and systems.....it's up to each student where we head with it and some of us do pretty well. We have nothing to hide come see us. It's nice to be able to trace the lineage of our forms....it makes them more real.;) Peace

Okay, well as long as you don't expect people to believe the story of your GM being a master of 50+ martial arts and 900 forms, and a master of Shaolin, I don't have a problem with your schools.

Your schools obviously teach a bunch of classical martial arts forms, but please just don't expect anybody to buy the story because it makes no sense.

[ricardocameron]

it is influenced by karate remember the lineage/history ..would it not stand to reason that to hide the art it would also have to look like karate and not"' kungfu"??

actually karate is a respectable art no one that really does the art cares what is called beyond Shaolin Do ..it is karate it is kung fu it is chuan fa it is also none of these

"KARA"(China) + " TE"(Hand)= What? "Kara" was changed by Funakoshi to mean "Empty" Same Japanese pronunciation, different written character...Comprende?
Then the Japanese put their twisted little minds to the CMA..;)

Same Bat art, different Bat name! :D

[The Willow Sword]

What Is Your Definiton Of What Shaolin Is And Is Not ??

Shaolin IS the TCMA taught and practiced at the Shaolin temple(either several hundred years ago or today whether you call it wushu or whatever classification i give creedence to what comes from the Temple. What Shaolin is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Kung Fu Is Or Is Not?? i think the kfm definition is right on.

In general, Kung Fu is a label used to describe any Martial Art that comes from China. It is the generic name for literally hundreds of individual Chinese fighting arts, both "internal" and "external," ancient and of relatively recent invention.

what kung fu is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Is Right And What Is Wrong??

What is right is when people represent themselves honestly without having to spout and tout alot of BS and make outlandish claims.
What is wrong is when you misrepresent who you are and what you profess to teach and WHERE you get your material from.

Why Is It ABOUT SD THAT Brings Out The B*tch In All Other Martial Artist??

What is it about Logic ,reason, and reality that brings out the b!tch in the SD'ers and the constant need to justify themselves to everyone around them? hmmmm?

Why Does Anyone Out Side Of Sd Care What We Do??

Because alot of us who actually TRAIN in a TCMA and have a legitamate background and lineage are sick and Fukin tired of you guys constantly riding the coattail of the TCMA realm and to be quite frank B@STARDIZING TCMA and calling it the true shaolin way or art. you get no respect from the TCMA community as a whole. Think about that for a moment. you spend most of your time trying to justify what you do and how you do it and its no wonder you get laughed at by every other TCMA out there and its no wonder when you go to china and get all this grand treatment(because you are tourists with money) and then when you leave they roll their eyes and continue on with their daily routines.

Whyis It That You All Whine So Much About Total Bullsh**?

Why is it that all you Sd'ers whine to US about YOUR BS? Here on this forum?

[Baqualin]

Wow, this gentleman is very interesting. I'm surprised you haven't researched him GT. We have a few forms that are very close to his in Hsing-I and Bagua.

FYI...our Classical Baqua The First Baqua form taught in SD can be traced back to Chiang Jung-Ch'iao a student of Chang Chao-Tung, who was a direct student of Tung Hai-Ch'uan

It's a common form in the Baqua world not far removed from Tung Hai-Ch'uan as you see...they just spelled his name Jiang instead of Chiang. The gentleman doing it on the video is not Chiang...he's dead.

You can get a video of this form from Dr. Jerry Allen Johnson a Baqua Master in Monteray Calif.
he also teaches it with applications.

From what I've researched we have a little more to go along with it in the 64 rules, fighting technique's and circle training (circle mixing):)

[Baqualin]

What Is Your Definiton Of What Shaolin Is And Is Not ??

Shaolin IS the TCMA taught and practiced at the Shaolin temple(either several hundred years ago or today whether you call it wushu or whatever classification i give creedence to what comes from the Temple. What Shaolin is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Kung Fu Is Or Is Not?? i think the kfm definition is right on.

In general, Kung Fu is a label used to describe any Martial Art that comes from China. It is the generic name for literally hundreds of individual Chinese fighting arts, both "internal" and "external," ancient and of relatively recent invention.

what kung fu is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Is Right And What Is Wrong??

What is right is when people represent themselves honestly without having to spout and tout alot of BS and make outlandish claims.
What is wrong is when you misrepresent who you are and what you profess to teach and WHERE you get your material from.

Why Is It ABOUT SD THAT Brings Out The B*tch In All Other Martial Artist??

What is it about Logic ,reason, and reality that brings out the b!tch in the SD'ers and the constant need to justify themselves to everyone around them? hmmmm?

Why Does Anyone Out Side Of Sd Care What We Do??

Because alot of us who actually TRAIN in a TCMA and have a legitamate background and lineage are sick and Fukin tired of you guys constantly riding the coattail of the TCMA realm and to be quite frank B@STARDIZING TCMA and calling it the true shaolin way or art. you get no respect from the TCMA community as a whole. Think about that for a moment. you spend most of your time trying to justify what you do and how you do it and its no wonder you get laughed at by every other TCMA out there and its no wonder when you go to china and get all this grand treatment(because you are tourists with money) and then when you leave they roll their eyes and continue on with their daily routines.

Whyis It That You All Whine So Much About Total Bullsh**?

Why is it that all you Sd'ers whine to US about YOUR BS? Here on this forum?

I wondered were you've been:D

[Golden Tiger]

Because alot of us who actually TRAIN in a TCMA and have a legitamate background and lineage are sick and Fukin tired of you guys constantly riding the coattail of the TCMA realm

Speaking of coat tails, you do know that you have made a name for yourself on the SD coat tails don't you WS? Mention your name in other threads, what do you get? "Oh, he is the one from SD that got his a$$ handed to him cause his mouth wrote checks his butt couldn't cash" or "yeah, he is the crazy guy that went from loving it to hating it, sorta like a grade school crush".

So lil one, you owe SD everything for making you famous. Now go drink some more Kool aide and restart Final Fantasy. what a tool:rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

Wow, this gentleman is very interesting. I'm surprised you haven't researched him GT. We have a few forms that are very close to his in Hsing-I and Bagua.

Yeah, I don't get out much.:o

[godzillakungfu]

Yeah, I don't get out much.:o
Thank you for understanding what I meant.

BQ stop.

FYI nothing. I have already stated I did SD West. I know the history, I know the debates, I know the misspellings, I know the politics. Not so much on the East but, much on the west.



Yes, I have seen the JRJ videos they are a source of debate in some circles regarding SD(again this is coming from the West).

If you read GT's post you would understand my post.


Originally Posted by Golden Tiger View Post
Very interesting. This is the first time I have seen the Classical form done by someone outside of SD. As was stated already, we do the form a tad different (same circle on both sides,level 1 training anyway, uniform number of steps between each circle, more defined movements) but other than that, I see very little difference.

Interesting indeed.

Our postures are similar to JRJ but it is rare to watch someone do SD stepping patterns. JRJ doesn't do the circle walking while doing the postures like SD. That is what I was responding to in GT's post.


It is interesting to find something, recently produced, outside of American influence, that resembles SD forms and patterns.

[tattooedmonk]

What Is Your Definiton Of What Shaolin Is And Is Not ??

Shaolin IS the TCMA taught and practiced at the Shaolin temple(either several hundred years ago or today whether you call it wushu or whatever classification i give creedence to what comes from the Temple. What Shaolin is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Kung Fu Is Or Is Not?? i think the kfm definition is right on.

In general, Kung Fu is a label used to describe any Martial Art that comes from China. It is the generic name for literally hundreds of individual Chinese fighting arts, both "internal" and "external," ancient and of relatively recent invention.

what kung fu is NOT is SD. Plain and simple.

What Is Your Definition Of What Is Right And What Is Wrong??

What is right is when people represent themselves honestly without having to spout and tout alot of BS and make outlandish claims.
What is wrong is when you misrepresent who you are and what you profess to teach and WHERE you get your material from.

Why Is It ABOUT SD THAT Brings Out The B*tch In All Other Martial Artist??

What is it about Logic ,reason, and reality that brings out the b!tch in the SD'ers and the constant need to justify themselves to everyone around them? hmmmm?

Why Does Anyone Out Side Of Sd Care What We Do??

Because alot of us who actually TRAIN in a TCMA and have a legitamate background and lineage are sick and Fukin tired of you guys constantly riding the coattail of the TCMA realm and to be quite frank B@STARDIZING TCMA and calling it the true shaolin way or art. you get no respect from the TCMA community as a whole. Think about that for a moment. you spend most of your time trying to justify what you do and how you do it and its no wonder you get laughed at by every other TCMA out there and its no wonder when you go to china and get all this grand treatment(because you are tourists with money) and then when you leave they roll their eyes and continue on with their daily routines.

Whyis It That You All Whine So Much About Total Bullsh**?

Why is it that all you Sd'ers whine to US about YOUR BS? Here on this forum?#1) the forms & art come from the shaolin temples directly or indirectly.... so how can it not be shaolin if this is what your definiton of shaolin is??...by the way your definition is inaccurate.

#2) Shaolin Do is not kungfu or karate it is both and it is neither...some call it karate some call it kung fu..most just call it a Shaolin Do!!

..once again you have given a generic definiton that anyone who reads any book about chinese martial arts could come up with...for someone with so much experience and so many opinions and criticisms I would expect more...inaccurate again. think outside the box...

#3) right and wrong are a matter of perception ..truth is absolute... and how do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what is claimed by Sd is not accurate and true..or right???

#4)answering a question with a question..just what I expect from a B*TCH!!

#5)LMAO..dude whatever....I doubt you know what real chinese martial arts is....unless it hit you in the face!! which can be arranged!!

#6)once again see#4......GT is right you are tool!!

[Golden Tiger]

BQ stop.

FYI nothing.

I can't really speak for him but I don't think that his FYI and such was directed at you GKFu, but more a reply of what you said directed to the thread. He is a decent fellow or so I hear.


Hey BM2!!! coming to the "gathering" and seminar this weekend?

[Baqualin]

Thank you for understanding what I meant.

BQ stop.

FYI nothing. I have already stated I did SD West. I know the history, I know the debates, I know the misspellings, I know the politics. Not so much on the East but, much on the west.



Yes, I have seen the JRJ videos they are a source of debate in some circles regarding SD(again this is coming from the West).

If you read GT's post you would understand my post.



Our postures are similar to JRJ but it is rare to watch someone do SD stepping patterns. JRJ doesn't do the circle walking while doing the postures like SD. That is what I was responding to in GT's post.


It is interesting to find something, recently produced, outside of American influence, that resembles SD forms and patterns.

Got it and I agree...JRJ is just one of the ones with our form that I ran across in my Baqua research....I had conversation with him a few times and he seemed pretty ****y.
I also heard some of his students attended one of our sparing clinic's in Calif. and didn't fair to well:)

By the way, other than an occasional mention I stay out of the politic's, east or west, it turns my stomach;)

[Judge Pen]

I have a book of JRJ's pa Kua that discusses the postures, diagrams them, and lays them out just like SD does them. Including the walk in a tighter, more defined circle and repeating each palm change on the right and left side. Interesting.

[Baqualin]

I can't really speak for him but I don't think that his FYI and such was directed at you GKFu, but more a reply of what you said directed to the thread. He is a decent fellow or so I hear.


Hey BM2!!! coming to the "gathering" and seminar this weekend?

You are correct....I look at GKFu as a SD brother east or west.

[lunghushan]

I would say something about JAJ's bagua and his books, but it isn't fit for a forum.

Let's just say that given your form and stuff is exactly the same as his leads to a high probability that it was copied from a book.

[Judge Pen]

I would say something about JRJ's bagua and his books, but it isn't fit for a forum.

Let's just say that given your form and stuff is exactly the same as his leads to a high probability that it was copied from a book.


High probabability? Man you should have taken evidence with me; speculation without proof is a big no-no. We can sepculate about things until the cows come home (or Royal Dragon finds him a Russian bride).

[lunghushan]

High probabability? Man you should have taken evidence with me; speculation without proof is a big no-no. We can sepculate about things until the cows come home (or Royal Dragon finds him a Russian bride).

Well, this might get me in trouble, but Joseph Crandall (who is a very nice guy), translated a ton of Chinese books. He is a good friend of JAJ.

They have a book with a lot of different systems forms. I mentioned the book to a teacher from China and showed it to him, and he said that the versions of his systems forms are an exact copy of his teacher's book. The forms in the book were simplified for public consumption, and aren't the versions that anybody actually taught.

More I dare not say. Let's just say that now I really think my original hypothesis was correct.

[lunghushan]

The thing you have to understand about Chinese forms, especially baguazhang, is that masters change the forms.

They don't usually keep it the same. They sometimes forget things, or they sometimes add things in, or mix it up. Baguazhang supposedly has a big tradition of this. A lot of teachers will also 'mark' their form. Meaning they change some moves so they can tell who is teaching the form out to other people, if they see it.

So if your form is almost exactly the same as somebody else's form, or exactly the same, then it must mean you had the same teacher. Either that, or it must mean that they copied it out of a book of that teacher, or both people copied it out of a book. Or they corrected it with the version in the book.

So I'd say it's a very high probability if your form is the same as JAJ's form, that it was either learned from the same teacher, or copied out of a book. Given that this is supposed to come from Indonesia, the highest probability seems to be that it was copied out of a book.

This particular form we're talking about, though, is a very common form, so it's possible it wasn't copied.

[godzillakungfu]

By the way, other than an occasional mention I stay out of the politic's, east or west, it turns my stomach;)Yeah, that is one of the reasons why I stopped teaching. Or according to rumors.....................:D

[godzillakungfu]

The thing you have to understand about Chinese forms, especially baguazhang, is that masters change the forms.

They don't usually keep it the same. They sometimes forget things, or they sometimes add things in, or mix it up. Baguazhang supposedly has a big tradition of this. A lot of teachers will also 'mark' their form. Meaning they change some moves so they can tell who is teaching the form out to other people, if they see it.

So if your form is almost exactly the same as somebody else's form, or exactly the same, then it must mean you had the same teacher. Either that, or it must mean that they copied it out of a book of that teacher, or both people copied it out of a book. Or they corrected it with the version in the book.

So I'd say it's a very high probability if your form is the same as JAJ's form, that it was either learned from the same teacher, or copied out of a book. Given that this is supposed to come from Indonesia, the highest probability seems to be that it was copied out of a book.Did you purposely miss what GT and I said?

Read what JP said again. JAJ and many other books say the same thing so the tighter circles, the palm changes are universal. Now, I'm not saying we do it right or wrong.

If the forms look exactly the same, which no one said, it is copied from someone else.

If it is completely different it is fake.

[Baqualin]

Well, this might get me in trouble, but Joseph Crandall (who is a very nice guy), translated a ton of Chinese books. He is a good friend of JAJ.

They have a book with a lot of different systems forms. I mentioned the book to a teacher from China and showed it to him, and he said that the versions of his systems forms are an exact copy of his teacher's book. The forms in the book were simplified for public consumption, and aren't the versions that anybody actually taught.

More I dare not say. Let's just say that now I really think my original hypothesis was correct.

OK your jumping to conclusions....GSM taught out the ONE Baqua form we're discussing way before JAJ book was published....IT IS A COMMON Baqua form...your teacher learn it from a Teacher and the Teacher who's book you mention learned it from a Teacher....it is not his form it's Chiang Jung-Ch'iao's form.

I also stated what we have is much more complete.

Joseph Crandall is a nice guy and their book is only to show the history and diversity of Pa Kua and it's weapons...... not to teach the forms.

Their book only has one of our Baqua forms.....Do you realize how many Baqua forms are out there.

Your also dealing with a country with such a diverse dialect that half the country can't even communicate with each other.

The Chinese girl friend I had, new a lot about Tai Chi and Meditation.....but had no idea what Baqua and Hsing I were until she meet me.

[lunghushan]

Did you purposely miss what GT and I said?

Read what JP said again. JAJ and many other books say the same thing so the tighter circles, the palm changes are universal. Now, I'm not saying we do it right or wrong.

If the forms look exactly the same, which no one said, it is copied from someone else.

If it is completely different it is fake.

Well it just seems interesting that all your stuff is standard is all. Meaning it is all standard forms easily found in history or in book.

Except maybe the 'golden leopard' or whatever. I don't know about that. I'm not Chinese, but from what little Chinese sources I do have access to, there are evidently a TON of Chinese resources I don't have access to.

If you had something like Bak Mei forms or some closed door system forms, it would actually lend some credence to your claims.

Or if your stuff was more fragmented like the Kun Tao from De Thouars, it would make a lot more sense.

But since all your stuff appears to be standard, and the same as published works, and you even have CMC's form which was designed by him in Taiwan, it really detracts from your story.

Bottom line is, I don't believe your story. Not that it matters, really. :)

[Judge Pen]

So I'd say it's a very high probability if your form is the same as JAJ's form, that it was either learned from the same teacher, or copied out of a book. Given that this is supposed to come from Indonesia, the highest probability seems to be that it was copied out of a book.

This particular form we're talking about, though, is a very common form, so it's possible it wasn't copied.


It is a very common form. It is just as probable that one of the collegues in Indonesia (maybe even GM Ie) learned the form prior to Indonesia and then taught it based upon his understanding. If it's that common, then why couldn't that be so?

Again, two theories that are possible, but no real proof to support either one.

[godzillakungfu]

Well it just seems interesting that all your stuff is standard is all. Meaning it is all standard forms easily found in history or in book.

Except maybe the 'golden leopard' or whatever. I don't know about that. I'm not Chinese, but from what little Chinese sources I do have access to, there are evidently a TON of Chinese resources I don't have access to.

If you had something like Bak Mei forms or some closed door system forms, it would actually lend some credence to your claims.

Or if your stuff was more fragmented like the Kun Tao from De Thouars, it would make a lot more sense.

But since all your stuff appears to be standard, and the same as published works, and you even have CMC's form which was designed by him in Taiwan, it really detracts from your story.

Bottom line is, I don't believe your story. Not that it matters, really. :)Please tell me what is standard.

The biggest arguments I have seen in this thread, from the beginning, is the lack of verifiable forms.

So far there are only 5 or 6 things from books.

Now you are saying 5 out of the 900+ forms make the whole thing standard.

Strange use of logic.

Now, don't get me started on the 900+ forms.

Oh, it isn't my story anymore. I'm attacking the arguments not your stance.

[lunghushan]

It is a very common form. It is just as probable that one of the collegues in Indonesia (maybe even GM Ie) learned the form prior to Indonesia and then taught it based upon his understanding. If it's that common, then why couldn't that be so?

Again, two theories that are possible, but no real proof to support either one.

Yeah, maybe I spent too long in Manhattan. Going into this conversation I was assuming that you had non-standard forms. I didn't really think about the book connection much.

When you showed the Kwan Do form, it looked like a valid form, but the way it was done wasn't exactly right with the stepping. At that point it seemed more likely that it was learned out of a book, because the way they have forms books layed out, some details are lost. Unicorn step could have been one of those details.

Then, to find out that the rest of the stuff is standard, the same as easily accessed published materials, it lends even more credence to the book claim.

Then, to find out that he teaches CMC's Taiwan form, that just screams out for a book or Taiwan connection.

But yeah, I can't prove that Sin The's master didn't go to Taiwan and China and learn all those forms, somehow the same standard versions that are most famous. I can't prove it at all.

But it really strains the credibility.

[lunghushan]

Please tell me what is standard.

The biggest arguments I have seen in this thread, from the beginning, is the lack of verifiable forms.

So far there are only 5 or 6 things from books.

Now you are saying 5 out of the 900+ forms make the whole thing standard.

Strange use of logic.

Now, don't get me started on the 900+ forms.

Oh, it isn't my story anymore. I'm attacking the arguments not your stance.

That's fine. But on the other thread they listed a bunch of forms, and they all seem standard. I have a number of translated books of forms and materials that I bought on Ryukyu that were translated from Chinese books, and some from other sources.

There are also a lot of books published by Lion's books in Taiwan in Chinese that are mostly reprints of old, classical works, along with some new books by He Jing Han, for example.

This evidently is a very small amount of the number of materials that are available in Chinese bookstores in Chinatowns across the world, and have been historically, since the Republican period, around 1920 or so.

Standard meaning standard names, verifiable names. Without actually seeing your forms, I wouldn't know. I don't even know all those forms anyway. But the fact that BQ verified that the SD versions are the same as those Youtube versions points to that.

[Baqualin]

Yeah, maybe I spent too long in Manhattan. Going into this conversation I was assuming that you had non-standard forms. I didn't really think about the book connection much.

When you showed the Kwan Do form, it looked like a valid form, but the way it was done wasn't exactly right with the stepping. At that point it seemed more likely that it was learned out of a book, because the way they have forms books layed out, some details are lost. Unicorn step could have been one of those details.

Then, to find out that the rest of the stuff is standard, the same as easily accessed published materials, it lends even more credence to the book claim.

Then, to find out that he teaches CMC's Taiwan form, that just screams out for a book or Taiwan connection.

But yeah, I can't prove that Sin The's master didn't go to Taiwan and China and learn all those forms, somehow the same standard versions that are most famous. I can't prove it at all.

But it really strains the credibility.

You keep refering to Cheng's form as his Taiwan form....they don't call it his form there.....at least according to my ex Chinese girl friend.....and by the way I showed her a video of GMS doing 64 and she thought he moved to slow.....that comes from his teacher not a book.

[kungfujunky]

is dragon pa kua standard? is double mulan fans standard? hsing yi staff? pa kua staff?

double daggers? double axes?

drunken? golden leopard?

18 flying daggers? horse hair form? rope dart?

standard to me means the oldest variation of the style. the pa kua form being abused now is considered to be the oldest known version. of the hundreds of known pa kua versions out there the first pa kua we teach is considered the oldest.

[Golden Tiger]

This Lunghushan parody is just that. More silly than not.:D His points of view change constantly and his reasoning appears to be that of a child.

Set them up and we'll knock them down..next!!

[lunghushan]

This Lunghushan parody is just that. More silly than not.:D His points of view change constantly and his reasoning appears to be that of a child.

Set them up and we'll knock them down..next!!

You know, I was being nice. Bottom line is you guys are the biggest suckers ever if you believe this story.

I'm through with this thread. At least now we know where you got your stuff.

[Baqualin]

is dragon pa kua standard? is double mulan fans standard? hsing yi staff? pa kua staff?

double daggers? double axes?

drunken? golden leopard?

18 flying daggers? horse hair form? rope dart?

standard to me means the oldest variation of the style. the pa kua form being abused now is considered to be the oldest known version. of the hundreds of known pa kua versions out there the first pa kua we teach is considered the oldest.

Correct me if I'm wrong...I think the Snake Pakua GSM teaches is the oldest Pakua
form we have....I think it's pre Tung Hai Chuan. And before WS pipes in the're alot of snake Baqua systems out there.

[godzillakungfu]

You know, I was being nice. Bottom line is you guys are the biggest suckers ever if you believe this story.

I'm through with this thread. At least now we know where you got your stuff.
Really, I don't.

[Baqualin]

You know, I was being nice. Bottom line is you guys are the biggest suckers ever if you believe this story.

I'm through with this thread. At least now we know where you got your stuff.

Now that's settled we can move on:cool:

[Baqualin]

This Lunghushan parody is just that. More silly than not.:D His points of view change constantly and his reasoning appears to be that of a child.

Set them up and we'll knock them down..next!!

Well I'm not bored at work anymore:D

[kungfujunky]

Correct me if I'm wrong...I think the Snake Pakua GSM teaches is the oldest Pakua
form we have....I think it's pre Tung Hai Chuan. And before WS pipes in the're alot of snake Baqua systems out there.



hmm i hadnt heard that but you could be right! we havent seen snake yet out west...but its supposed to be shown this year

[Baqualin]

hmm i hadnt heard that but you could be right! we havent seen snake yet out west...but its supposed to be shown this year

You'll love it.....it's strickly for fai jing training and one hell of a work out....it has a lot of kicks and traps all applied with intense fai jing

[Judge Pen]

When you showed the Kwan Do form, it looked like a valid form, but the way it was done wasn't exactly right with the stepping. At that point it seemed more likely that it was learned out of a book, because the way they have forms books layed out, some details are lost. Unicorn step could have been one of those details.

See again, I've never heard the term "unicorn stepping" If it were learned out of a book then wouldn't we call it unicorn stepping, but do it incorrectly? I was taught that the steps were moving over obsticals on the battlefield and have always stepped with that intent. What is the purpose for this "unicorn" step that you keep referring too?

If we were taught to step differently for different reasons, then you can't call my way of stepping incorrect. Just different.

[The Willow Sword]

Originally posted by Golden tiger

Speaking of coat tails, you do know that you have made a name for yourself on the SD coat tails don't you WS? Mention your name in other threads, what do you get? "Oh, he is the one from SD that got his a$$ handed to him cause his mouth wrote checks his butt couldn't cash" or "yeah, he is the crazy guy that went from loving it to hating it, sorta like a grade school crush".

So lil one, you owe SD everything for making you famous. Now go drink some more Kool aide and restart Final Fantasy. what a tool


:rolleyes: for a guy who said he was willing to take me back into the SD fold and hold no grudges you sure dont show it. i apologize if my answer session to TTM questions pi$$ed ya off:D i DO have that effect on people. and its not final fantasy ya dipsh!t its WARCRAFT III. get it right next time:mad:

Originally posted by tattoedmonk

#5)LMAO..dude whatever....I doubt you know what real chinese martial arts is....unless it hit you in the face!! which can be arranged!!

You threatening me you low life peice of sh!t?? If you know who i am and where i am then show up and make your threat in person but DONT presume to make veiled BS threats to ME here on this forum. In fact its not looked too favorably by the moderators here. I have threatened no-one here and if you cant handle what i have to say then put me on ignore. OR make your threats to me in PM.

Sorry Mods, i dont take to threats lightly, just establishing so.

TWS

[kungfujunky]

lol

thats funny

[tattooedmonk]

Originally posted by Golden tiger



:rolleyes: for a guy who said he was willing to take me back into the SD fold and hold no grudges you sure dont show it. i apologize if my answer session to TTM questions pi$$ed ya off:D i DO have that effect on people. and its not final fantasy ya dipsh!t its WARCRAFT III. get it right next time:mad:

Originally posted by tattoedmonk


You threatening me you low life peice of sh!t?? If you know who i am and where i am then show up and make your threat in person but DONT presume to make veiled BS threats to ME here on this forum. In fact its not looked too favorably by the moderators here. I have threatened no-one here and if you cant handle what i have to say then put me on ignore. OR make your threats to me in PM.

Sorry Mods, i dont take to threats lightly, just establishing so.

TWS you took it as a threat??

you feel threatened by a few words on the internet??

you got issues...

do you want some cheese for that whine??

if this is the way you really feel then you would have PM instead of being a b*tch and putting it out here ....

[Golden Tiger]

for a guy who said he was willing to take me back into the SD fold and hold no grudges you sure dont show it. i apologize if my answer session to TTM questions pi$$ed ya off i DO have that effect on people. and its not final fantasy ya dipsh!t its WARCRAFT III. get it right next time


Sorry about that. Shows how far out of the games loop I am. And of course I would still take you in and teach you everything you might have missed out on. I personally feel that I have learned a lot from SD, granted most was back in the day, and if you feel you didn't, I would have no problem catching you up so to speak. And not for the sake of SD's name, but because I feel every student deserves the best we have to offer.

[Baqualin]

Sorry about that. Shows how far out of the games loop I am. And of course I would still take you in and teach you everything you might have missed out on. I personally feel that I have learned a lot from SD, granted most was back in the day, and if you feel you didn't, I would have no problem catching you up so to speak. And not for the sake of SD's name, but because I feel every student deserves the best we have to offer.

Your a good person GT!!

[Royal Dragon]

WS,
I am going to hunt you down, drag ur punie behind out into the strteet and beat you with in an inch of your life before ripping your head off and peeing down ur neck!!! :mad:

[Radhnoti]

Are you doing that to impress that Russian chick that wants you to send her money so she can afford a visa and a plane ticket to come visit you? You sly dog. :D

[The Willow Sword]

LOL at RD. haha did you call her your little Suka like i suggested? hehe i dont blame you for being pi$$ed at me so i can take that threat with a grain of salt:p SUKA in Russian means "B!tch":D

Oh and TTM i am not "threatened" by your Threats. not in the least. just letting you know that if you are going to have it out with me on this forum, lets just keep it to "hey a$$hole you are a tool" and not " i can arrange to punch you in your face".

Peace,TWS

[Flaca]

Whatever happened to the Chinese martial arts concept of - one master and one grandmaster???? 40 or so masters????? Dont know....

40 or so masters throughout the states. I have one master (6th black), he is the only master in TX. There can be only one.... grandmaster. ;)