Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BM2]

Let's just say that given your form and stuff is exactly the same as his leads to a high probability that it was copied from a book.


Yeah, it is missing from some library in KY. :p Sorry TWS ;)

[lunghushan]

Okay, so I wasn't going to post this, but after the book discussion, seemed like you Shaolin-Do people might want to see this book:

http://www.ikungfu.net/Level-Elbow.htm

Seems 'Golden Leopard' is a Choy Li Fut form.

JP, if you want to know about 'unicorn stepping', you might want to just Google it.

I don't think people on here would believe anything I said about it anyway.

[sunfist]

Ok people, logic lesson:

Human perception itself is subjective, Descarte said 'I think, therefore I am', but even that simple statement makes one assumption, that he does indeed think. Does the sun rise in the morning? Thats the message that your eyes give you, so we could say its probable. It is also a possibility that the sun does not infact rise in the morning, but comes out every night, and all our sensory input deceives us of this.

Even so, you will find few people hanging their wet clothes out from midnight to 5AM in the hope that they will dry more efficiently, and of those few who are, who can say how many are doing so from the courtyard of a mental institution. You might argue that empirical testing would reveal that our clothes do not dry as efficiently under such circumstances, thus disproving the theory, but you are again relying on sensory input which may be faulty. The theory can simply not be disproven, nor can any theory. This relates back to inductive reasoning, which was mentioned earlier in the thread.

It is indeed possible that shaolin do is real, however we may also say that it is not probable. I think even its exponents know this, either openly or deep down. All we are debating here is semantics, the exact probability of it being true, and we all know that probability to be waaaaay below 50%

If you really, really want to beat the point of historical (in)accuracy into the ground, then we can employ occams razor and arrive at the conclusion that the simplest theory, and therefore the most likely to be correct, is that shaolin do is a modern style synthesised from a wide variety of existing MA, and from questionable sources. To those who would argue, I ask where is your clear and concise critical thinking, what methodology have you used to arrive at this conclusion? Good luck drying your Gi at midnight.

That, however, is only one of two core issues being addressed here. If shaolin do promotes growth in its students, both martial and otherwise, does it not stand upon its own merit? I think the answer is yes with two 'but's. If you want to practice your version of a style, do so, but make it clear that it is your version of the style. If SD constantly referred to their stuff as a different but related entity that can in no way be compared to the other lineages of it, people will be a lot less concerned. It is the strong implication that you can learn bagua as it would be taught in a dedicated bagua school, hang gar as in a dedicated hung gar school and so on that cheeses so many people off so much.

This brings me neatly to my second point: the habitual arrogance. Afer the irony wears off this is simply irritating. If I wanted to get all freudian we could say its a projection of inner insecurity, but lets not go there.

http://www.shaolin-do.com/ reads 'the most comprehensive martial art in the world'

http://www.kingsport-shaolin.com/ reads "Shao-Lin Kung Fu is the martial arts against which all other martial arts are measured!" and '#1 Fighting Style in the World!'

This all combines to produce an effect not unlike your cousin bob who learnt krotty and is better than you because of it. Nobody likes cousin bob, regardless of how kicking rad his krotty is, and no amount of abuse or lamentation will change that.

[Invincible Yang]

The book of JRJ's original form by Joseph Crandall follows shaolindo's almost to the letter. But Gms was teaching this form before this book or Jaj's book Classical Pa Kua chang were even published. Anyone interested in more media on Jrj's pa ku, and hsing i should check out chiflow.com.

[Judge Pen]

Okay, so I wasn't going to post this, but after the book discussion, seemed like you Shaolin-Do people might want to see this book:

http://www.ikungfu.net/Level-Elbow.htm

Seems 'Golden Leopard' is a Choy Li Fut form.

JP, if you want to know about 'unicorn stepping', you might want to just Google it.

I don't think people on here would believe anything I said about it anyway.


I did google it. No examples or real descriptions--just references.

Ok, CLF has a golden leopard form--doesn't mean its ours. Guess what, we have golden tiger, black tiger, white crane etc. Generic animal names are common in CMA. I'd like to see the book in more detain and compare it to what I've been taught. Oh, we are being taught 4 GL forms, not just one prior to CLF's Bai Mao form.... I wonder what branch of CLF this is anyway...

BTW, I thought you were "done" with this thread? :D

[Yao Sing]

Oh and TTM i am not "threatened" by your Threats. not in the least. just letting you know that if you are going to have it out with me on this forum, lets just keep it to "hey a$$hole you are a tool" and not " i can arrange to punch you in your face".

Peace,TWS

Well, we all know there's at least one guy here that's proven to not back down from a fight (regardless of skill level). :)

[Golden Tiger]

Ok people, logic lesson:


Looks like someone has completed their first week of Intro to logic 101...


It is indeed possible that shaolin do is real, however we may also say that it is not probable.

Since you have not defined the parameters of "real", then your points don't have merit. Shall we move over to the Socratic method perhaps to help you along?


If you really, really want to beat the point of historical (in)accuracy into the ground, then we can employ occams razor and arrive at the conclusion that the simplest theory, and therefore the most likely to be correct, is that shaolin do is a modern style synthesised from a wide variety of existing MA, and from questionable sources.

In order to test any theory, especially Occams (which is more of a lazy persons way of testing it), you must present a null hypothesis (which you haven't) and then be able to prove or disprove it (which by the way, you have done neither).


The theory can simply not be disproven, nor can any theory.

By that "logic", every theory would be by default true and provable. You are now mixings philosophy with logic. Be consistant.


It is the strong implication that you can learn bagua as it would be taught in a dedicated bagua school, hang gar as in a dedicated hung gar school and so on that cheeses so many people off so much.

But #1. You have not provided any proof, imperical or otherwise, that the SD material and method of teaching such is not as good as that of a dedicated school.


This brings me neatly to my second point: the habitual arrogance.

Sorta like your uppitty "logical" foo foo don't you think?


Nobody likes cousin bob, regardless of how kicking rad his krotty is, and no amount of abuse or lamentation will change that.


Well, I would imagine as long as uncle bob can kick your a$$ from here to Occams house, he doesnt really care if you like his kong foo krotty or not.

[Radhnoti]

sunfist, I really liked your post. I agree with your contention of "habitual arrogance", but would suggest that self promotion is necessary in advertising. If you look at martial arts as a business, it's not good business to make your competitors happy. So, yes, you and I both think the advertising is over the top...and the school owner who GETS the student because of that advertising probably could care less.

The other issue I'd bring up is "real". Real is a far more subjective word when you're talkin' shaolin then your post implied. The only link shaolin-do claims to have to "Shaolin" is historic...as far as I know. Careful martial consumers, who actually care if they're getting taught the same stuff that's being taught at Shaolin temple NOW, will probably notice the -do. It's hard, in my opinion, to criticize Sin The' using the name "shaolin-do" when you consider he was using it before most in the U.S. had even heard the word.

[Radhnoti]

GT posted while I was typing.

I liked sunfists post...at least I liked that he was attempting to make points better than, "It's not real because it's not like mine!", or "You wear gis!" I suppose I liked the tone best, an actual attempt at logical reasons for disagreement is worthy of well reasoned response.
GT's "uppity logical foo foo" line did crack me up though...

[BM2]

[QUOTE=sunfist;705824]Ok people, logic lesson:

http://www.kingsport-shaolin.com/ reads "Shao-Lin Kung Fu is the martial arts against which all other martial arts are measured!" and '#1 Fighting Style in the World!'

QUOTE]


As difficult as this may be for you to believe, given your only insight of SD is through your limited PC screen sensors, Master Sin (I dislike using someone's name without their permission however it is used, sorry GMT) is a very humble man and has tried to instill that in his students. He is not a web master ;) and did not create those sites. It appears he just teaches and does not provide input into web sites.
FWIW, I do not care for those quotes, although I'm certain that you would also find something else to be "offended" by if they were removed.

[BM2]

Oh, by the way, thank you Sun Fist in trying to educate us poor SDers :D
Not arrogant at all are you ;)

[Citong Shifu]

40 or so masters throughout the states. I have one master (6th black), he is the only master in TX. There can be only one.... grandmaster. ;)

Flaca, lol, I here ya. Not quite what I was talkin bout, but I hear ya ;) .

[funnytiger]

Oh by the way.....you know that Jow Ga practitoners and San Soo practitioners have a different lineage too...plus they have belt ranking systems..... are they not kung fu or Shaolin??

I'm not aware of too many (any as a matter of fact) Jow Ga schools that have a belt ranking system...

Did I misread that? :confused:

[GeneChing]

Please refrain from being overly insulting to each other on this thread. I'm starting to get complaints again, and that's bothersome. If you want to challenge each other, threaten each other, or anything that could be used later in a court of law :eek: please take that off this forum and discuss it somewhere else.

You know, I have a real love/hate relationship with this thread. It's one of the longest on the forum and it flips from being interesting and intelligent to catty and ridiculous. I totally support constructive dialog and I realize that this is a charged issue. At the same time, it would be really easy, even tempting, to lock down this thread or just delete it forever. I hope that we can all return to a peaceful discussion, or at least as peaceful as can be for martial artists.

[Flying-Monkey]

Please refrain from being overly insulting to each other on this thread. I'm starting to get complaints again, and that's bothersome. If you want to challenge each other, threaten each other, or anything that could be used later in a court of law :eek: please take that off this forum and discuss it somewhere else.

You know, I have a real love/hate relationship with this thread. It's one of the longest on the forum and it flips from being interesting and intelligent to catty and ridiculous. I totally support constructive dialog and I realize that this is a charged issue. At the same time, it would be really easy, even tempting, to lock down this thread or just delete it forever. I hope that we can all return to a peaceful discussion, or at least as peaceful as can be for martial artists.


For someone who does Shaolin, what do you feel of SD? What do you think about their history and their forms?

[lunghushan]

I think we should lock the thread. We used to have a rule that there are somethings you shouldn't discuss at the dinner table: politics and religion.

With MA, it seems like you can't argue rationally about it. You can only fight about it. Therefore, we should probably lock the thread and be done with it.

[Judge Pen]

I have a love/hate relationship with this thread too. But I could care less if its deleted or locked. But another thread would rise to take its place. I get frustrated by petty insults etc, but I appreciate an intelligent discourse and would miss the posts that are actually constructive.

Of course if we're talking about lineage, then honestly, I could care less.

Lung, I thought this thread was a waste of time for you. Why do you keep coming back?

[Flying-Monkey]

Yes Lock it nothing has been proven or disproven here . If we all followed the Philosophical tenets of the Shaolin Way then we would all be brothers and who talks like this to a brother. I have looked back over this thread and the same things are said only in different ways. KC

I think some things were proven on both sides, but the other refused to listen.

[The Xia]

If you are worried about legal stuff, deleting it would be best. But has it really escalated to that? I don't think so. I think that little threat war cooled down. In my opinion, the main thing that's bad avout this thread is that it dominates the Shaolin forum.

[lunghushan]

I have a love/hate relationship with this thread too. But I could care less if its deleted or locked. But another thread would rise to take its place. I get frustrated by petty insults etc, but I appreciate an intelligent discourse and would miss the posts that are actually constructive.

Of course if we're talking about lineage, then honestly, I could care less.

Lung, I thought this thread was a waste of time for you. Why do you keep coming back?

I was responding to Gene.

[GeneChing]

The forum is kind of like turning your stereo up real loud. If no one complains, who cares? You guys can flame each other all you like as long as no one complains. But when people start to complain, then I got to look through the posts and arbitrate and frankly, if I wanted to be a judge in the martial arts arena, you'd see me at more tournaments judging. I hate judging. Judge not. But that's my own head trip. Back to this thread.

I think JP is right - another thread would pop up in it's place, so it's nice to have all the SD arguments reasonably contained. I'd rather merge new SD threads into this one than kill it. And the thread has certainly had its moments. As for my personal opinion of SD or any other of the questioned arts, all I can say is they pay their bills, which is more than can be said for a lot of the self-proclaimed authentic-lineage TCMAers. I've met GM The, as well as the Soards, and a few others who are senior in the SD lineage. It was a long time ago for The and the Soards, prior to me working here, so they probably don't remember me. Don't try to draw me into this debate. I've got enough on my hands with all the Shaolin is just wushu debates here. :rolleyes:

At this point, I'm going to let it stand in hopes that tempers cool and threats subside. I imagine that I might have even done this before on this thread, somewhere back in the past. And I can foresee doing it again. If the flaming continues, I'll do some banning, so just be respectful to each other. Don't cross that line.

[lunghushan]

Well does SD offer private lessons at reasonable rates? Maybe then my problem of lack of practice partner would be solved. :)

In my ideal world, you would be able to read Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine, find something that interested you, some form or something, go online to view a video preview, then buy the video on Martialartsmart.com, then go to your local chain school (could be Shaolin-Do, why not?) and take some private lessons in just that, and then spar with people.

In a very clean, hygenic environment, where people wore shoes and protective gear to minimize skin to skin contact and the spread of diseases.

Somebody make it happen, okay?

[Royal Dragon]

Why is it when I threaten someone no one takes it seriously and thinks it's just a joke? :(

[lunghushan]

Why is it when I threaten someone no one takes it seriously and thinks it's just a joke? :(

How come whenever I try to make some point on here everybody thinks I'm trolling?

[kungfujunky]

my offer still stands lung. when im out there i will have time to spend doing push hands or whatever..forms ideas application...im sure there is a lot we can teach each other

[lunghushan]

Hey Lung, Come to Tennessee I will teach you or what ever no charge you can stayu at my place no charge and we will eat good Chinese food and have a good time. I am building my own state of the art Kung Fu W/O facility on my own property and you will love it Kind Of my own Shaolin Temple if you will. Its going to be awesome. Think about it. KC

Thanks very much for the offer, that's way too kind. I will think about it.

Unfortunately I have to take of some aged relatives, so I don't think I will be able to. But I will think about it.

[kungfujunky]

Why is it when I threaten someone no one takes it seriously and thinks it's just a joke? :(


i took it seriously...but you should maybe pm him for his address and handle it off boards

;)

[kungfujunky]

id be up for that!

[Yao Sing]

In my opinion, the main thing that's bad avout this thread is that it dominates the Shaolin forum.

The only reason it dominates is because nobody is offering an alternative. Feel free to strike up a new thread.

[Judge Pen]

Thanks very much for the offer, that's way too kind. I will think about it.

Unfortunately I have to take of some aged relatives, so I don't think I will be able to. But I will think about it.

Seriously, KC lives about a hundred yards from me (before this year I'd never met the guy face-to-face). You get two SDers for the price of one plane ticket. And my wife can cook really well.

[lunghushan]

Seriously, KC lives about a hundred yards from me (before this year I'd never met the guy face-to-face). You get two SDers for the price of one plane ticket. And my wife can cook really well.

You have to realize, I am deathly afraid of the South. Maybe it was growing up with Dukes of Hazzard, but I always imagined a Boss Hogg at every turn in the road, ready to serve me up in jail and make me a slave in some chain-gang.

I had a girlfriend from West Virginia who I met in NY, who went to UNC Asheville, and she wanted me to visit. Being deathly afraid of the South, I said no, no, no, no.

Finally I went, had a plane change in Charlotte, somehow got pick-pocketed in the airport bar, and had to make my way back to NY without any I.D. or anything.

So it is a very extremely nice offer, but I don't know if I'll ever be able to take you up on it. (Not for the reasons above, but because of relatives). But I will think about it.

[BentMonk]

http://iron-body.com/bboard/index.php/topic,399.0.html

http://iron-body.com/bboard/index.php/topic,397.0.html

http://iron-body.com/bboard/index.php/topic,370.0.html

Here's a couple of new things for discussion. I've posted the third link before, but nobody had any comments except to ask me if I had the book. I do not. Also I think Lung said something to the effect of my stances sucking. Anyone who has met me knows why that made me fall out of my chair laughing. :D I'm interested to see what type of response these get since most of what I type on this thread is overlooked in favor of flaming, bickering, and challenges. I'm liking the idea of us getting together and doing something constructive. Between my job and four kids, I'm not sure I could make it. That sucks because I'd like to meet some of you guys, and I haven't seen JP for a long time. Speaking of which, who's going to be in Lexington Saturday?

[Flaca]

http://iron-body.com/bboard/index.php/topic,399.0.html

http://iron-body.com/bboard/index.php/topic,397.0.html

http://iron-body.com/bboard/index.php/topic,370.0.html

Here's a couple of new things for discussion. I've posted the third link before, but nobody had any comments except to ask me if I had the book. I do not. Also I think Lung said something to the effect of my stances sucking. Anyone who has met me knows why that made me fall out of my chair laughing. :D I'm interested to see what type of response these get since most of what I type on this thread is overlooked in favor of flaming, bickering, and challenges. I'm liking the idea of us getting together and doing something constructive. Between my job and four kids, I'm not sure I could make it. That sucks because I'd like to meet some of you guys, and I haven't seen JP for a long time. Speaking of which, who's going to be in Lexington Saturday?


I tried to look at the sites, but they require registration, hence the silence.

I wish I could get to Lexington, haven't been in a few years. Several of my buddies are going.

[BentMonk]

So why not register? It's just another forum... a pretty darn good one at that. :confused:

[kungfujunky]

man i watched that fight science on tv and didnt even see the lo han chien in there! its almost the whole form!

very cool!

[lunghushan]

Here's another evidently Shaolin-Do link. The stances look fine in this one. Some of them are even wearing CMA uniforms.

http://mullins-shaolin.com/photogallery/gallery/index.htm

[Yao Sing]

Here's another evidently Shaolin-Do link. The stances look fine in this one.

??????????
You think those are good? I see quite a few collapsing rear ankles and posing type excessively wide stances that are not practical for fighting.

Which brings me to the question - Why does everyone use posed pictures to represent sparring?

And I'm not picking on SD, I see it on a lot of websites and school ads.

[lunghushan]

Well, better at least. Not a great representation of each MA I don't think, but better.

I mean, waddya expect. They do so many different forms there's no way they can be great is the bottom line.

Anyway they seem really nice, so I say we cut them some slack. None of us are perfect MAists, right? They obviously spend hours and hours practicing, right?

[BM2]

What? Close down this thread...the Jerry Springer of threads?
JERRY!!JERRY!!!JEEERRRYYY!!!!!!!!!!!
The only thing that has bothered me so far is this..this...being nice to each other:confused:

[BM2]

Gene, just for the record, you have never had to threaten to lock this thread before.

[BM2]

Everyone needs a step back and look at themselves once in a while. I recall reading how GT felt that there were some things that he felt were valid concerns that he didn't see before posting here. I had posted something similar to that before he came here.
I have met MK and thought he was a good guy. Met TWS and he was really easy going.
Everyone brings something to the table. If you think you have all the answers but no one is asking you anything, there might be a reason.

[lunghushan]

Well if you think about it, what SD is trying to do is kindof mind boggling, right?

I mean, they definitely got guts. Most people would probably not be able to master just taijiquan or something, but they're doing a whole TON of stuff.

And they seem to be pretty nice folks. They seem to be having a good time. So, whatever. :)

You know, nobody seems to have thought of the something about the hairy faced boy. Which is, they might have just had this story of the hairy faced person in their lineage, so they used that photo just for their books and ads.

But I swear I came across a reference to that guy before before someplace, in another book. If I find it, I'll let you know.

[sunfist]

Oh, by the way, thank you Sun Fist in trying to educate us poor SDers :D
Not arrogant at all are you ;)

Its just that im ten times more awesome than anyone else, it puts a strain or relations sometimes.

[sunfist]

Since you have not defined the parameters of "real", then your points don't have merit. Shall we move over to the Socratic method perhaps to help you along?

Dont worry, I have faith that you can figure out the basics on your own.


In order to test any theory, especially Occams (which is more of a lazy persons way of testing it), you must present a null hypothesis (which you haven't) and then be able to prove or disprove it (which by the way, you have done neither).

As you said, im lazy.


By that "logic", every theory would be by default true and provable. You are now mixings philosophy with logic. Be consistant.

I never stated that my lesson would consist wholly of logic. And its actually a paradox, since if every theory were true and provable this would be also, and so round and round we go.


Well, I would imagine as long as uncle bob can kick your a$$ from here to Occams house, he doesnt really care if you like his kong foo krotty or not.

Thats the problem, Uncle bob could be kyokushin, but that doesnt make it any more comprable to my kung fu.

[BentMonk]

I know this wasn't the best National Geographic ever offered up, but do my fellow SD peeps see anything familiar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G-dyrBtcyQ&mode=related&search

[Golden Tiger]

Speaking of which, who's going to be in Lexington Saturday?

I will probably make over sometime during the day. :D

[Golden Tiger]

I know this wasn't the best National Geographic ever offered up, but do my fellow SD peeps see anything familiar?


Interesting. Here you have a fellow that is a Wushu champ and in the set you are refering to, he is actually doing the opening of Lohan Chien, then goes into the 3rd or 4th move of Fei Fu Chu Tung and adds a little Golden Tiger :D fist inbetween. All of these, for those of you taking notes, are considered very very simple forms and taught within the first 9 months.

Interesting to say the least...

[Flaca]

So why not register? It's just another forum... a pretty darn good one at that. :confused:

Ok, ok, I registered. Now I need about an hour to read and absorb.:rolleyes:

The youtube video of the wushu artist (lohan chuan and fe hu chu tong) appears to be clips put together, not one long form. He appears (to me at least) not to be 'rooted' well. Like he should study tai chi for a couple years.

[Judge Pen]

You have to realize, I am deathly afraid of the South. Maybe it was growing up with Dukes of Hazzard, but I always imagined a Boss Hogg at every turn in the road, ready to serve me up in jail and make me a slave in some chain-gang.

I had a girlfriend from West Virginia who I met in NY, who went to UNC Asheville, and she wanted me to visit. Being deathly afraid of the South, I said no, no, no, no.

Finally I went, had a plane change in Charlotte, somehow got pick-pocketed in the airport bar, and had to make my way back to NY without any I.D. or anything.

So it is a very extremely nice offer, but I don't know if I'll ever be able to take you up on it. (Not for the reasons above, but because of relatives). But I will think about it.


:rolleyes: You've got issues man. The South is a great place--people are very cordial. Anyway, Boss Hog is easy to bribe.

[Judge Pen]

Here's another evidently Shaolin-Do link. The stances look fine in this one. Some of them are even wearing CMA uniforms.

http://mullins-shaolin.com/photogallery/gallery/index.htm

Lol, that's my teacher. I would be in those pictures, but I had a baby-shower that weekend.

[Judge Pen]

Interesting. Here you have a fellow that is a Wushu champ and in the set you are refering to, he is actually doing the opening of Lohan Chien, then goes into the 3rd or 4th move of Fei Fu Chu Tung and adds a little Golden Tiger :D fist inbetween. All of these, for those of you taking notes, are considered very very simple forms and taught within the first 9 months.

Interesting to say the least...


I didn't notice that before, but he does pieces of these forms, move for move.

[The Willow Sword]

yeah even I recognized the lo han movements. startled me for a second, they got an sd guy to be on fight scence? then i realized after about a second that those movements are as common in lo han system as the name "Smith" is in the phone book.

but you know i found that whole comparison and anaolgy pretty stupid. the snake and the kung fu punch. you know id be more worried about a strike from that mohave rattler than the wushu guy. Mohave rattlesnakes are the most venomous snake in the country and who cares if the snake strike is a tad slower. its still pretty fast if you ask me.

TWS

[ricardocameron]

Interesting. Here you have a fellow that is a Wushu champ and in the set you are refering to, he is actually doing the opening of Lohan Chien, then goes into the 3rd or 4th move of Fei Fu Chu Tung and adds a little Golden Tiger :D fist inbetween. All of these, for those of you taking notes, are considered very very simple forms and taught within the first 9 months.

Interesting to say the least...

That's so cool!!

Thanks Bent Monk!


How the hell did I miss those things the first time it was on? :mad:

NOPE! NO CHINESE "KUNG FOO" IN SHAOLIN-DO!! IT'S KARA-TAY! :D

[Baqualin]

yeah even I recognized the lo han movements. startled me for a second, they got an sd guy to be on fight scence? then i realized after about a second that those movements are as common in lo han system as the name "Smith" is in the phone book.

but you know i found that whole comparison and anaolgy pretty stupid. the snake and the kung fu punch. you know id be more worried about a strike from that mohave rattler than the wushu guy. Mohave rattlesnakes are the most venomous snake in the country and who cares if the snake strike is a tad slower. its still pretty fast if you ask me.

TWS

I agree......in real time which one do you thing would have the fastest reaction to a natural disturbance. For example: stepping on the snake vs slapping the wushu guy on the back of the head

[Baqualin]

http://iron-body.com/bboard/index.php/topic,399.0.html


Speaking of which, who's going to be in Lexington Saturday?

I'll be there pretty much all day and will probally do an internal form demo that night...would love to meet you.

[Golden Tiger]

yeah even I recognized the lo han movements. startled me for a second, they got an sd guy to be on fight scence? then i realized after about a second that those movements are as common in lo han system as the name "Smith" is in the phone book.

What is de name of de river in de land of :rolleyes: Egypt?

[BM2]

De Nile?
This message is too short to be posted.

[Citong Shifu]

Just curious... How many shaolin louhan forms are taught in SD? What are the names of them? I think I've asked this before but cant remember if I got an answer.... We have 6 shaolin louhan empty hand, plus a couple two man sets, and louhan weapons, etc.... We normally start people out with louhan san zan, ba fa quan, fu hu quan, xiang lung quan, fu lung quan, etc.... Is louhan chein SD's first louhan form? Talk with u later...

Sifu Ron.

[Baqualin]

What is de name of de river in de land of :rolleyes: Egypt?

GT...If you run out of salt let me know and I'll bring you some this weekend:D

[The Willow Sword]

and what am i denying? exactly? by pointing out the commonality of that particular lo han movement? so what am i denying? oh am i denying that this is actually something that shaolin do came up with and that everyone copies them? am i denying that sd is the true and most amazing comprehensive art in the universe? :rolleyes: uhh no. just pointing out that its a common technique, so common in fact that ANYONE even a misrepresentation of shaolin lineage can aqquire.

how about YOUR side of that river GT?;) :p :cool:

TWS

[kungfujunky]

tws i would agree with you if it were 1 or 2 movements that he did.

but in fact he did nearly half of lo han chen in that set he did...plus a bit of our tiger.

i dont think that sequence of movements is common.

[Flaca]

Just curious... How many shaolin louhan forms are taught in SD? What are the names of them? I think I've asked this before but cant remember if I got an answer.... We have 6 shaolin louhan empty hand, plus a couple two man sets, and louhan weapons, etc.... We normally start people out with louhan san zan, ba fa quan, fu hu quan, xiang lung quan, fu lung quan, etc.... Is louhan chein SD's first louhan form? Talk with u later...

Sifu Ron.

I think I remember that the 30 short katas (reduced from 108 or so?) are called Lohan. Lohan chuan is the first lohan long form.

[godzillakungfu]

Why not post your respone over there?

Someone will stumble across this, tell bullshido, then all....breaks loose.

There are enough people on KFO with this attitude, lets not bring in BS.net.

[tattooedmonk]

I know this wasn't the best National Geographic ever offered up, but do my fellow SD peeps see anything familiar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G-dyrBtcyQ&mode=related&searchEpic...lohan chien/ fei hu chu tong ...wonder where he learned it...anyone know??

[Judge Pen]

Just curious... How many shaolin louhan forms are taught in SD? What are the names of them? I think I've asked this before but cant remember if I got an answer.... We have 6 shaolin louhan empty hand, plus a couple two man sets, and louhan weapons, etc.... We normally start people out with louhan san zan, ba fa quan, fu hu quan, xiang lung quan, fu lung quan, etc.... Is louhan chein SD's first louhan form? Talk with u later...

Sifu Ron.
Lohan Chien is the only Lohan form taught in SD as far as I'm aware.

[Radhnoti]

To add what I've heard to JP's statement...
I asked a lot of questions about Lohan Chien (first form I REALLY liked in SD). I could never figure out why it was classified as "mantis" in a lot of SD literature, I just didn't see a lot of what I expected mantis to be. I was told (by senior students of senior masters) that the Lohan stuff predated mantis, and as newer systems like mantis were brought into shaolin fewer and fewer fighters wanted to specialize in Lohan. This disturbed the historic minded teachers who recalled Lohan being the "favored" specialization. There was a fear that Lohan would be lost, the answer was to make learning Lohan a prerequisite to learning mantis. Mantis was the style everyone wanted to learn, and so Lohan was preserved.

I think SD is the only system I've heard indicate in it's oral history that a style as popular as Lohan (now) was almost lost because of a lack of popularity. It's also possible (though I took it to be in China) that the "re-grouping" took place in Indonesia and Lohan was unpopular there.

[Flaca]

Lohan Chien is the only Lohan form taught in SD as far as I'm aware.

Ask KC, he's the teacher who called short katas 'Lohan'.

[Citong Shifu]

Ask KC, he's the teacher who called short katas 'Lohan'.


What do you mean?

[The Willow Sword]

what he means is that KC has mentioned that the 30 short katas in the beginning curriculum of Sd are derived from the 108 lohan steps or tan tui. its the same thing that i was told but not by him.

as the history goes it was told to me that sin the' did teach out the 108 steps but found that the american western mindset was too dense to really soak it all in, so he revised the movements and condensed them into 30 steps. apparently there were alot of "revisions" back in the early days. which accounts for some of the inconsistancies of teaching forms there.

TWS

[Citong Shifu]

what he means is that KC has mentioned that the 30 short katas in the beginning curriculum of Sd are derived from the 108 lohan steps or tan tui. its the same thing that i was told but not by him.

as the history goes it was told to me that sin the' did teach out the 108 steps but found that the american western mindset was too dense to really soak it all in, so he revised the movements and condensed them into 30 steps. apparently there were alot of "revisions" back in the early days. which accounts for some of the inconsistancies of teaching forms there.

TWS


Ok, I see. That whole short kata thing threw me off. So, is that the 12 or 14 road tan tui tao lu?

[The Willow Sword]

i dont think so. the green belt lo han chien form that is taught is yet another "revised" form. They claim that Lohan is the gateway to praying mantis yet most praying mantis i have seen and done does not have that classical lohan posturing. lo han seems to have the classical shaolin stances whereas the praying mantis forms have all that monkey foot work. the closest that i have come to doing a mantis form outside of sd that has a lo han flavor is the Bung Bo form from seven star. but everyone seems to do that form all fast and flighty,from what i have seen. plus all the stomping in bung bo. anyway i am a tad off point here. so i will conclude with a "im not sure about the SD lohan chien form and its origins". maybe its another one of these "secret forms learned on a secret trip to indonesia":rolleyes:

hehe keepin it goin' TWS

[Learn]

Learn - "I would disagree about the "Indochineese approach" as has been suggested."

I've read online discussions of kuntao practicioners saying that the principles are far more important than the specifics in kuntao...GM Sin passes on the principles, usually via the forms and the specifics (phoenix eye vs. willow palm) are secondary. We may actually be agreeing here, though you may be stating that the principles aren't being passed along properly.

Here's a bit from a website describing Willem deThouars "style" of teaching. I'll underline the parts I find similar to SD.

"This extensive period of travel, and Willem's insatiable curiosity, define the learning ethic of the Kun Lun Pai. Pai practitioners are encouraged to examine every aspect of the martial arts, and indeed life in general, to find what works for them. This takes the Bruce Lee philosophy of "absorb what is useful" to the next evolutionary step. The last half of that statement was to "discard the rest." In Willem's approach, nothing is thrown away. Since every individual is different and each situation or opponent is different, no hard and fast absolute laws will apply. What's more, a practitioner's path in the martial arts does not resist the passage of time. A technique that seemed to not work ten years ago, might suddenly find itself useful after it ages in the mind."
"Willem is fond of the word "struggle." In class, he will demonstrate a technique or form, hand it over to the students and say, "O.K., now struggle with it." This is classical old-style teaching. He doesn't give too much mechanical information, because the best teacher is the self. And Willem believes that life is a struggle."
"There has been discussion in the martial arts print media as to whether Kun Tao is an Indonesian, Malaysian, Philippino or Chinese art; the answer is "yes." Kun Tao goes back to ancient China, so it is accurately a Chinese art, but both Chinese and indigenous people in Southeast Asia have practiced and adopted it as their own. And the old men who were trained in what they see as the "pure art" have seen it sanitized and changed; it literally doesn't exist in its original state in China anymore."
__________________
Keep it simple, stupid.


You are absolutely correct. However, SD propogates forms and not princiiples. You could do both, but that is not what is happening. The philipino arts teach energy interactive drills. The Chinese arts can do the same. SD doesn't . It is unfortunate, because the Chinese arts have so much to offer, but it is hard to match the realism that modern world kali has to offer.

[Citong Shifu]

i dont think so. the green belt lo han chien form that is taught is yet another "revised" form. They claim that Lohan is the gateway to praying mantis yet most praying mantis i have seen and done does not have that classical lohan posturing. lo han seems to have the classical shaolin stances whereas the praying mantis forms have all that monkey foot work. the closest that i have come to doing a mantis form outside of sd that has a lo han flavor is the Bung Bo form from seven star. but everyone seems to do that form all fast and flighty,from what i have seen. plus all the stomping in bung bo. anyway i am a tad off point here. so i will conclude with a "im not sure about the SD lohan chien form and its origins". maybe its another one of these "secret forms learned on a secret trip to indonesia":rolleyes:

hehe keepin it goin' TWS



WS, Sorry, I may have confused you... I was asking if the 108 tan tui tao lu from SD was actually the 12 or 14 road tan tui sets normally associated with other schools... Ok, later...

[Learn]

Perhaps it boils down to this. A guy has a knife, you have a sort stick, are you comfortable fighting him off? Or, broadsword to broadsword?

[Citong Shifu]

Perhaps it boils down to this. A guy has a knife, you have a sort stick, are you comfortable fighting him off? Or, broadsword to broadsword?


knife to knife is always better, but if all one has is a stick then you do what you have to do...In my opinion...

[kungfujunky]

Perhaps it boils down to this. A guy has a knife, you have a sort stick, are you comfortable fighting him off? Or, broadsword to broadsword?


yes to both

[Golden Tiger]

and what am i denying? exactly? by pointing out the commonality of that particular lo han movement? so what am i denying? oh am i denying that this is actually something that shaolin do came up with and that everyone copies them? am i denying that sd is the true and most amazing comprehensive art in the universe? uhh no. just pointing out that its a common technique, so common in fact that ANYONE even a misrepresentation of shaolin lineage can aqquire.

how about YOUR side of that river GT?

TWS



I think kungfujunky answered it best. The odds that the exact set of moves from not one but 2 of the forms we do being done together is pretty low. What does that prove? Nothing, well, other than the fact that his teacher bought the same book back in the 70's and pieced them together the exact same way Master Sin did or that someone saw the forms, found a bit of merit in them, and "borrowed" them.

But to say that "oh, those are very common moves"...now now.:rolleyes:

As for my side of "de Nile" (I thought that was very clever by the way), its just lovely on this side. I am not worried about all the things you all question anyway. Said it before, will say it again, try and keep up this time...the origins, lineage, etc. don't matter to me. If I had started training in one of the other schools that is always slammed, and I felt that I learned what I wanted to learn from it, I would be just as content.

Ok, I have to get ready to go our Fall Tournament and Demo. Maybe I'll see some of you there.:cool:

[ricardocameron]

Perhaps it boils down to this. A guy has a knife, you have a sort stick, are you comfortable fighting him off? Or, broadsword to broadsword?
:eek:
Throw the stick at him and RUN!!!! ;)

[ricardocameron]

From kungfumagazine.com's ezine.......

Talking with Ronny Yu, the director of FEARLESS---with Jet Li

"......It's not just a form. It's body, mind and spirit. And that is the theme of FEARLESS. It's really about Chinese martial arts - the truth behind it. It's not just how good a fighter you are. The character in Chinese – wu – if split it up, actually it's called "avert conflict." The better master you are, the better peacemaker you are because you can stop people from hurting each other. You can avert conflict because you are so good. So that is the whole theme that we're looking for."


just sharing.

Check out: http://swordforum.com/ good info...Sword Forum International was founded in June 1998 and has since served the international community as an educational organization and conservation society which promotes history and culture through the study of swords and swordsmanship.

and

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com
"Your FREE Guide to Finding REAL Swords For Sale Online at the Price YOU want to pay for them..."

[Royal Dragon]

knife to knife is always better, but if all one has is a stick then you do what you have to do...In my opinion...

Reply]
The stick will undoubtedly have a longer reach, so you can still attack, but be out of range for your opponets blade.....If you can bash your opponent in the skull, and he is not even close enough to you to cut with his blade, which is better?

I will take the stick. You can have your knife any day.

[Flaca]

Ask KC, he's the teacher who called short katas 'Lohan'.


What do you mean?

Not on this thread, in classes. KC is probably in Lexington this weekend.

[Radhnoti]

Citong Shifu - "WS, Sorry, I may have confused you... I was asking if the 108 tan tui tao lu from SD was actually the 12 or 14 road tan tui sets normally associated with other schools... Ok, later..."

CS, shaolin-do's 30 short forms are a condensed version of something called "108 Steps of the Lohan". As far as anyone I've talked to (and I've talked to senior masters) has known, they were never called tan tui until schools attempting to fit a bit more of a "kung-fu mold" started classifying them as such. They are very similar to tan tui NOW, though I was told the full sized 108 Step forms were a lot less linear.
Again, I'm not even sure I'd charge the SD schools that call them "tan tui" with intellectual dishonesty...as they are performed (to my understanding) just like tan tui and serve much the same purpose. GT or one of those who might have been around for the original attempts to teach the 108 Steps might be able to comment on whether the "summarizing" into 30 short forms changed the "flavor" of the forms a great deal. The senior master I spoke to (well...heard speaking :D ) seemed to think they were greatly changed.

[Citong Shifu]

Citong Shifu - "WS, Sorry, I may have confused you... I was asking if the 108 tan tui tao lu from SD was actually the 12 or 14 road tan tui sets normally associated with other schools... Ok, later..."

CS, shaolin-do's 30 short forms are a condensed version of something called "108 Steps of the Lohan". As far as anyone I've talked to (and I've talked to senior masters) has known, they were never called tan tui until schools attempting to fit a bit more of a "kung-fu mold" started classifying them as such. They are very similar to tan tui NOW, though I was told the full sized 108 Step forms were a lot less linear.
Again, I'm not even sure I'd charge the SD schools that call them "tan tui" with intellectual dishonesty...as they are performed (to my understanding) just like tan tui and serve much the same purpose. GT or one of those who might have been around for the original attempts to teach the 108 Steps might be able to comment on whether the "summarizing" into 30 short forms changed the "flavor" of the forms a great deal. The senior master I spoke to (well...heard speaking :D ) seemed to think they were greatly changed.

Thanks! Thats cool. I was just wondering.

[Golden Tiger]

Congrats to Bent Monk on placing at the tournament. Also, it was good to see some of you from here on Sat and Sun, like 9th, lx, Bagulin, and BM2. Hope everyone had a nice time.

[kungfujunky]

did you test gt?

man it sounds like you all had a good time!

[Golden Tiger]

did you test gt?

man it sounds like you all had a good time!

No kfj, I was just a spectator most of the day and attended the seminar. And no, I didn't test. Way too out of shape to go through one of those.;)

From everyone I spoke with, yes, it appeared that everyone had a great time. There was probably a couple 100 in the competition and then close to 300 at the seminar. A lot of old faces and quite a few new ones.

[BentMonk]

Thanks GT. I didn't even know I had placed until Master Price announced it. I had a great day, even though in sparring I got DQ'd for excessive head contact...oops! :D

[Baqualin]

What a wonderful weekend....I've never seen so many smiling faces....congrats to all who competed. I got to meet Kwaichang and 9th drunk for the first time....really wonderful people and great representatives of what SD is all about. The seminar was awsome...the Golden Leopard System is something I'll enjoy for the rest of my life ( figure it will take that long to get it down:D ) The highlites for me were meeting 9TH, KC, spending time with Master Moony and his crew, plus a short push hand lesson with Master Eric Smith. I learned more in 5 min. with him than in 6 months of regular classes. GT come out of the woods someday;)

[Golden Tiger]

plus a short push hand lesson with Master Eric Smith. I learned more in 5 min. with him than in 6 months of regular classes. GT come out of the woods someday;)

Maybe I need to come teach that class then. Might not be 5 mins though, probably take me 10:D . And I am out of the woods :rolleyes: , I just keep a low profile:D

Yes Bent, you are going to have to take it easy on your opponents.

Kwaichang was there? Darn, I must have missed him. Wonder why he didn't sneak JP up with him. Fellow owes me a beer or two!:mad:

[ninthdrunk]

Baqualin,


It was really nice to meet you as well. It seems that the more folks I meet that have been in SD for a while, the more I realize why I love this system.

Man, the golden leopard shaped up really nicely. I gotta say, the fourth road is up there on my favorite forms list now. Getting to hear the little descriptions for liu shing has me all giddy and I don't really want to wait six months!

So, for everyone I got to see or meet, it was really a pleasure.

[Baqualin]

Maybe I need to come teach that class then. Might not be 5 mins though, probably take me 10:D . And I am out of the woods :rolleyes: , I just keep a low profile:D

Yes Bent, you are going to have to take it easy on your opponents.

Kwaichang was there? Darn, I must have missed him. Wonder why he didn't sneak JP up with him. Fellow owes me a beer or two!:mad:

KC and I were looking for you:confused:

Please do, at least come in on Sat.'s @ 10am...I work with the Internal students in the second gym, I'm always looking to improve myself and them. Not this Sat. though, I'm testing for 2nd blk. sash wish me luck.:)

I would also like to give a special congrats. to Rob Petri from West Va. he was promoted to 5 th on Sunday and it was pretty emotional....he didn't see it coming and couldn't hardly fight back the tears. Rob is a West Va. State trooper and is in charge of all their self defense training....he has been Grand Champion at Tournments a few times.....also fights full contact no holds barred in the cage and does very well......his love for Shaolin-Do is unsurpassed and he works as hard anybody in the system.

By the way...I was warned not to get ****y with WVa. troopers you might get head butted.:D

[BentMonk]

Rob Petry is one of the best people I know. I got to spar him in my first tournament match as a black belt in 1998. He won of course, but I had a lot of fun.
Congrats to him. I wish I'd been there to see it.

[Judge Pen]

Congrats on the good showing BM. I'll find my way up to Louisville someday to slug it out with ya!

[BentMonk]

Congrats on the good showing BM. I'll find my way up to Louisville someday to slug it out with ya!

Thanks. It'd be great if you could come up some time. Tell Master Mullins I said hello. I miss seeing him at tournament. The demos that he, Mike, and Kevin did are some of the best I ever saw. It ain't the same without 'em.

[Baqualin]

Rob Petry is one of the best people I know. I got to spar him in my first tournament match as a black belt in 1998. He won of course, but I had a lot of fun.
Congrats to him. I wish I'd been there to see it.

Sorry I didn't get to meet you this time....I never found the time to get with Master Price to point you out...it was pretty busy all weekend...Mucho congrats on your place!!!
This goes out to you and all on this thread who stand up for the SD FAMILY.....look me up when in Lex. and dinner's (or Beer)is on me. :D

[jigahus]

This thread is so awesome. The Shaolin kung fu forum should just change it's name to the Shaolin-Do kung fu forum since this is the only active thread nowadays in here.

[tattooedmonk]

Sorry I didn't get to meet you this time....I never found the time to get with Master Price to point you out...it was pretty busy all weekend...Mucho congrats on your place!!!
This goes out to you and all on this thread who stand up for the SD FAMILY.....look me up when in Lex. and dinner's (or Beer)is on me. :Ddoes this include me??

[Baqualin]

does this include me??

Why wouldn't it or should I say why shouldn't it....unless your trying to tell me your going to eat more food or drink more beer than I can afford.:D

[tattooedmonk]

Why wouldn't it or should I say why shouldn't it....unless your trying to tell me your going to eat more food or drink more beer than I can afford.:D how did you know?? do you know who I am ??? I am known for my bottomless stomach!!! THANX!!

[NastyHaggis]

Hey, Judge Pen,

I am one of Master Garry Mullins' students (white sash, began a month and a half ago. I have sparring techs 1-10 and short forms 1-14 so far). I am fortunate enough to take a Tuesday morning class that only about 4 or 5 students show up to, so we get LOTS of personal attention. I noticed that your location says Knoxville. I grew up there but don't remember any Shaolin schools there. Do you ever make it up to Johnson City? I'd love to talk shop sometime in person! Are you coming to the Golden Leopard seminar in October?

[Judge Pen]

Hey, Judge Pen,

I am one of Master Garry Mullins' students (white sash, began a month and a half ago. I have sparring techs 1-10 and short forms 1-14 so far). I am fortunate enough to take a Tuesday morning class that only about 4 or 5 students show up to, so we get LOTS of personal attention. I noticed that your location says Knoxville. I grew up there but don't remember any Shaolin schools there. Do you ever make it up to Johnson City? I'd love to talk shop sometime in person! Are you coming to the Golden Leopard seminar in October?

Master Mike has a school in Seymour and Daniel Mattson has a school in Knoxville. If you were at the 1st Golden Leopard seminar and school opening, then you saw me. I did double hook swords and Golden Tiger in the demonstration. I'll be there for the seminar unless life intervenes and my daughter is born early.

[NastyHaggis]

Unfortunately, I wasn't there for that first seminar, and I wasn't there last week either because my family has UT season tickets on the 50 yard line, and I got the tickets (which is rare). Master Garry said I shouldn't be too far behind, but I am a minister and will miss the morning session on that Sunday anyway, so I might have to skip this one. :(

I think Master Mike comes up here on Tuesday nights, but up until tonight I haven't been able to come out on Tuesday nights. He is awesome too. That whole family is incredible!

[Flying-Monkey]

IS SHAOLIN DO FOR REAL ???

Well after seeing what I saw and learned from GM Th'e and from some of the other Masters there I have no doubt that SD is the real deal. It is truly amazing and humbling to learn all that I have from GM Th'e and all the teachers of SD. Also thank you Baqualin for the info you cleared alot of things up for me regarding the history of SD.
I tell all who post here there is nothing that anyone can post or say that will make me doubt the SD system. It is the most awesome "art" I have ever witnessed. When I was young I always dreamed of training in CMA I now do and it is the epitome of all them. Signed KWAI CHANG

This kind of dogma is a little scary.

[Baqualin]

This kind of dogma is a little scary.

It's called Family:)

[ricardocameron]

I think kungfujunky answered it best. The odds that the exact set of moves from not one but 2 of the forms we do being done together is pretty low. What does that prove? Nothing, well, other than the fact that his teacher bought the same book back in the 70's and pieced them together the exact same way Master Sin did or that someone saw the forms, found a bit of merit in them, and "borrowed" them.

But to say that "oh, those are very common moves"...now now.:rolleyes:



I am googling him to try and ask him personally.. :D

[ricardocameron]

The alternative is a weekend of training, I will organise. This way we can do what we all love train in CMA and learn. I have had 2 already PM e-mail me and I know where we can have it if all are willing.
THink about it we can all learn something new and meet each other. THIS will allow us to mend fences and allow forgiveness and Brotherhood. I already know what I will teach. Let me Know. Hey this will be difficult I know but I am expecting a new Child in Dec. But I will do it. KC


I'd LOVE that! I live in florida, though.. :(
Maybe one day...

I always thought that preservation of the art, and not the business aspects should be first.. I can't even afford to train, but have found a teacher when I can... www.Tampashaolin.com
I've always had the desire, but not the means..with family to support, no time, etc..

[Learn]

One of the great things about SD, like many other arts, is the sense of family of training with your brothers and sisters. And regardless of your style, going to seminars is always a good experience. That's pretty much universal regardless of the style in which you train. I experienced that comraderie in SD and it was good. I've never contended that SD did not have its merits. To return to the debate, a commenter previously said something along the lines of that the short kata were a prelude to mantis. I could not disagree more. They were absolutely nothing like anything I ever learned studying seven star. Perhaps someone more experienced in seven star has another perspective, but it looked a whole lot like the Japanese karate I first studied, with some exceptions.

[kungfujunky]

One of the great things about SD, like many other arts, is the sense of family of training with your brothers and sisters. And regardless of your style, going to seminars is always a good experience. That's pretty much universal regardless of the style in which you train. I experienced that comraderie in SD and it was good. I've never contended that SD did not have its merits. To return to the debate, a commenter previously said something along the lines of that the short kata were a prelude to mantis. I could not disagree more. They were absolutely nothing like anything I ever learned studying seven star. Perhaps someone more experienced in seven star has another perspective, but it looked a whole lot like the Japanese karate I first studied, with some exceptions.



it is my belief that the setup of lower belt in sd is geared towards self defense first..and then more specialized training as you progress through the ranks.

the short forms and 1 steps are all for fast reactions and quick defense. i believe that these are shown forst to give a solid foundation for self defense that can then be expanded on exponentially with tai chi tiger pa kua etc. but after even 1 week in sd i felt confident enough in what i had learned to take on 3 guys. now my confidence is much higher with the specialized training in tai chi etc....my skills have grown so that the sparring techniques and short katas arent really used in my sparring...but without them the building process would have been much rougher.

[Learn]

I've studied the short kata, to SD black belt level. Studied the Japanese approach, studied other Chinese, the SD short kata are more japanese then chinese. Ignoring the whole "kata" thing, the movements are more japanese than kung fu/wu shut. It is the way it is. That doesn't mean it's bad, just that the marketing is wrong.

[Yao Sing]

but after even 1 week in sd i felt confident enough in what i had learned to take on 3 guys.

Are you talking about fighting or sex? :D

Now, you wouldn't be exaggerating a little bit are you?

You feel you learned enough in your first week to fight 3 attackers?

[kungfujunky]

Are you talking about fighting or sex? :D

Now, you wouldn't be exaggerating a little bit are you?

You feel you learned enough in your first week to fight 3 attackers?



i did and i won.

[Flying-Monkey]

I will tell you what Dogma is it is saying something is not real even though you cant prove it. It is talking about something you know nothing about. It is slandering an art you have never seen. It is lying about your own abilities to make your self feel like someone special. That my friend is Dogma. Expecting others to follow you blindly because you say something. Ihave seen alot of martial arts SD is not karate I know I have done it it is an awesome art with alot to offer. Call it Dogma if you will I really dont care. Ilook at that statement as sheer ignorance.
AGAIN I SAY ; LETS ALL GET TOGETHOR AND COMPARE AND HAVE A GOOD TIME AND LEARN. KWAI CHANG

You wrote that there is nothing anyone can tell you (on-line) that will change your mind. That sounds a little dogmatic.

I have seen about two dozen SD forms performed. From what I saw, it did not look like any kung fu or wushu or any other Chinese art. However, I have seen its like before. I have seen it in kempo. SD is a martial art. SD does help people. However, it is not what most people understand as kung fu.

To be honest, the forms I have seen were not preformed well. Not in the way of a person with poor physical ability, but in the way that the people don’t understand what he is doing.

The majority of the forms I have seen were on Master Mullin's old website. That site has removed those videos.

You wrote of your experience in kung fu. However, you wrote that one of the kung fu styles was learned when you were about 12. You are almost middle-aged now. A 12 year old's perspective is not very reliable. Plus, what was the lineage of your teacher? Lineage does not prove he is a good teacher. However, it does help to show if he was a real teacher of that style.

My lineage is a little famous. However, I questioned my sigung and sifu almost to the point where I should have been kicked out. The Pek Kwar what we do is different to what most other styles do. Our monkey is also different. I asked teachers and I asked other masters (Pek Kwar teachers Monkey guys and other styles). While some of them did not like my teachers’ politics, they all said that it is real. There may be some people who question our claims and I am more than happy to talk to them about it. The difference between our claims and SD claims is that a lot of people support our claims in one way or the other. I showed clips of your style's forms to many teachers and only asked "Is this kung fu?" I asked nothing more than that. Many teachers laughed. All of them said "no!" A few of them said it looked like kempo.

I must say, from what I have seen, SD is not the real deal in the realm of it being traditional kung fu.

[BentMonk]

"The majority of the forms I have seen were on Master Mullin's old website. That site has removed those videos."

"To be honest, the forms I have seen were not preformed well. Not in the way of a person with poor physical ability, but in the way that the people don’t understand what he is doing."

FM - I have to disagree with you here. I have seen Master Mullins demonstrate many forms many times. The man has great form, speed, and power. I have also watched him spar other Masters. He can apply what he knows as well. I'm not entirely uneducated as to what makes CMA different from JMA, KMA, MMA, whatever. I agree that there are some SD videos that do not look as CMA-like as they should. However, Master Mullins is not an example of this. I invite you to post someone you feel is a good example of what you feel a CMA form should look like. If possible find one that is similar to a SD form you have viewed. That way your critique will have some actual points for comparison. I also invite you to go to the link I posted a few pages back and read the article concerning the real history of all CMA. Then you would realize how pointless it is for anyone to say that their lineage is "authentic". You and others throw around what "the CMA community thinks" a lot. Did it ever occur to you that they might be wrong? Did it ever occur to you that their assertions of what is "real" or "authentic" may be just as big a marketing technique as any other art uses to attract students? The same "authentic" teachers you asked about SD's forms may have financially based motives for denigrating another art. Also, many are quick to say that SD is not CMA simply because the practitioner is in a gi and barefoot. If that is not the sole basis for their criticism, it often colors their opinion much more than it should. I stand by what I have said many times. There are no more pure lineages. Everything can be disputed somewhere by someone. All martial arts have traveled and grown so far from their places and times of origin that it is just plain silly to debate lineage at all. As to debating body mechanics, stances, etc. that's a matter of opinion much the same as rather or not we like the same painting or not. I have seen videos and live demonstrations by "authentic" CMA practitioners that were just as awful IMO as you think the SD forms are. The "my style is more real than your style" thing has been around as long as CMA. We're just continuing the tradition. :D

[ricardocameron]

I've studied the short kata, to SD black belt level. Studied the Japanese approach, studied other Chinese, the SD short kata are more japanese then chinese. Ignoring the whole "kata" thing, the movements are more japanese than kung fu/wu shut. It is the way it is. That doesn't mean it's bad, just that the marketing is wrong.

Karate was distilled from things like the short forms, or these actual forms, anyway...So, YES, we ARE practicing Karate(Empty hand/China Hand), a PART of CMA "Kung Fu".

Remember, Shaolin monks travelled TO JAPAN from China to dissemminate Ch'an Budhism and Chinese culture, along with their Martial Arts . The Japanese absorbed it all and made it their own. No biggie.

[Golden Tiger]

The difference between our claims and SD claims is that a lot of people support our claims in one way or the other.

There are currently about, oh to make a guess, 1000 plus that support SD's claims. With a lot (maybe 100 or so) with 20 to 30 years MA experience. Whats your point?:D

[Baqualin]

I must say, from what I have seen, SD is not the real deal in the realm of it being traditional kung fu.[/QUOTE]

FM I highly respect your style FYI, but Go back a few pages on this thread and you'll see reference to the National Geographic special, Fight Science view the you tube link....the Chinese wu shu champion is seen doing two of our lower level forms move for move....is he not doing real Kung Fu:confused:

[Judge Pen]

There are currently about, oh to make a guess, 1000 plus that support SD's claims. With a lot (maybe 100 or so) with 20 to 30 years MA experience. Whats your point?:D

I think that's the real reason that SD catches so much flack. The marketing behind SD makes very boastful claims and the numbers behind it can legitimize these claims in the public perception. It's not that other CMA people care that we do our stuff differently for a number of different reasons--its that some in SD--and most marketing tactics--claim that we do it right and they do it wrong that aggravates others. And with the numbers behind it an uneducated person is likely to believe everything we claim. (Perception is Reality to the masses) I can see why that is offensive, but its not really any different than some of the marketing I see in other CMA styles. (Except maybe without the numbers). Everyone's stuff is the best. An intelligent person can put all the claims in perspective and appreciate any art for what it is and what it offers to them individually.

As for me, I take any marketing with a grain of salt and, when asked by someone, tries to put things in perspective. SD is what it is. It aggravates me when people try to catagorize it as "karate" or "kempo" or "kung tao" of "pure kung fu". It is of Chinese descent and broad enough to fit into the catagories of "kung fu--time and effort--and kung tao. The wayit spread, was taught, and is practiced, also adds a flavor to it that is unique in a way of its own.

Shaolin-do is a "way of shaolin". It's not everyone's way or even every kung fu's way. It's not even every "way of shaolin." It is A way. If it's different, then that's not a bad thing.

[Citong Shifu]

"The majority of the forms I have seen were on Master Mullin's old website. That site has removed those videos."

"To be honest, the forms I have seen were not preformed well. Not in the way of a person with poor physical ability, but in the way that the people don’t understand what he is doing."

FM - I have to disagree with you here. I have seen Master Mullins demonstrate many forms many times. The man has great form, speed, and power. I have also watched him spar other Masters. He can apply what he knows as well. I'm not entirely uneducated as to what makes CMA different from JMA, KMA, MMA, whatever. I agree that there are some SD videos that do not look as CMA-like as they should. However, Master Mullins is not an example of this. I invite you to post someone you feel is a good example of what you feel a CMA form should look like. If possible find one that is similar to a SD form you have viewed. That way your critique will have some actual points for comparison. I also invite you to go to the link I posted a few pages back and read the article concerning the real history of all CMA. Then you would realize how pointless it is for anyone to say that their lineage is "authentic". You and others throw around what "the CMA community thinks" a lot. Did it ever occur to you that they might be wrong? Did it ever occur to you that their assertions of what is "real" or "authentic" may be just as big a marketing technique as any other art uses to attract students? The same "authentic" teachers you asked about SD's forms may have financially based motives for denigrating another art. Also, many are quick to say that SD is not CMA simply because the practitioner is in a gi and barefoot. If that is not the sole basis for their criticism, it often colors their opinion much more than it should. I stand by what I have said many times. There are no more pure lineages. Everything can be disputed somewhere by someone. All martial arts have traveled and grown so far from their places and times of origin that it is just plain silly to debate lineage at all. As to debating body mechanics, stances, etc. that's a matter of opinion much the same as rather or not we like the same painting or not. I have seen videos and live demonstrations by "authentic" CMA practitioners that were just as awful IMO as you think the SD forms are. The "my style is more real than your style" thing has been around as long as CMA. We're just continuing the tradition. :D


I think the best way to see how SD and other CMA are compared (meaning, characterisitc and technique/s execution) would be to have SD attend a Nationally rated CMA tournament with the rest of the Chinese arts... We will be having our National CMA Championship - Fall 2007 - The date will be finalized by Spring of 07.... Also, we would have absolutely no problem allowing some of SD's high ranking masters participate as judges.... (only master level instructors are allowed to judge in our tournament/s).....

I understand that SD has their own tournaments for SD, but this doesnt let the SD art stand on its own compared to the majority of Chinese arts... We will be having participants from around the U.S. and China attending... I believe this would be a great way to put alot of these issues to rest... I think this would be a great oppertunity for SDers to intermingle with the rest of us, regardless of style differences....

I hope that this can be considered... We do not allow bias!!!!! People come to compete. the winners are the ones who get out on the floor and whoop @ss, period, rather it be forms, weapons, two man sets, fighting, etc.....

Please let me know. You can IM me as well... As far as SD judges, please rovide me a lists of names and ranks and we'll make sure that they are invited as judges... This will better help SD's interests with attendance....

Ok, later..
Sifu Ron...

[Invincible Yang]

Well said. I have been studing shaolindo for some time and it is and always will be the way I have chosen. But not to get off subject, but does anyoune know if
Gm Sin plans on teaching all the forms of certain systems(White crane 18 forms, Ground monkey 18 forms, etc.) instead of just one form here and there?

[BentMonk]

CS - I could not agree with you more. I would love to attend and compete in such an event. It would be great if my fellow SD students did as well. Although I am not an example of traditional SD. To compensate for my cerebral palsy, my teachers have modified my forms and techniques a great deal. However I love competition, and meeting other martial artists so I'll make the effort to get there. Hopefully a few of my more talented friends will come with me. JP, KC, GT, Baq, what do you guys think?

[Judge Pen]

I think the best way to see how SD and other CMA are compared (meaning, characterisitc and technique/s execution) would be to have SD attend a Nationally rated CMA tournament with the rest of the Chinese arts... We will be having our National CMA Championship - Fall 2007 - The date will be finalized by Spring of 07.... Also, we would have absolutely no problem allowing some of SD's high ranking masters participate as judges.... (only master level instructors are allowed to judge in our tournament/s).....

I understand that SD has their own tournaments for SD, but this doesnt let the SD art stand on its own compared to the majority of Chinese arts... We will be having participants from around the U.S. and China attending... I believe this would be a great way to put alot of these issues to rest... I think this would be a great oppertunity for SDers to intermingle with the rest of us, regardless of style differences....

I hope that this can be considered... We do not allow bias!!!!! People come to compete. the winners are the ones who get out on the floor and whoop @ss, period, rather it be forms, weapons, two man sets, fighting, etc.....

Please let me know. You can IM me as well... As far as SD judges, please rovide me a lists of names and ranks and we'll make sure that they are invited as judges... This will better help SD's interests with attendance....

Ok, later..
Sifu Ron...

Its a gracious invitation and one that I hope some SD people take you up on. I recently competed in an open tournament but it was a smaller more local event. I didn't feel that politics were an issue and I thought I was judged fairly. Most of the judges didn't even know I was SD. The Kwan Dao video and the fights that I posted were from that event.

Is your tournament in Southern Illinois? I will pass along the invitation to my teacher if you want to send me the details. I don't know if they will be interested (they seem to not care about accpetance etc as much as I do) but I will tell them.

[Judge Pen]

CS - I could not agree with you more. I would love to attend and compete in such an event. It would be great if my fellow SD students did as well. Although I am not an example of traditional SD. To compensate for my cerebral palsy, my teachers have modified my forms and techniques a great deal. However I love competition, and meeting other martial artists so I'll make the effort to get there. Hopefully a few of my more talented friends will come with me. JP, KC, GT, Baq, what do you guys think?


I've been thinking about if I would ever compete in a tournment again with my priorities being re-alinged, but I would love to go with you. How much time in advance I'd have to train (and how my new child affects my training time) will play a huge factor on if I watch or I participate. I hate to go and not participate. I bet I can talk KC into going, but I think he has given up competing as well.

That leaves Baq and GT. I wonder if we can get GT to come out of the closet. ... :p

[kungfujunky]

ill do it

can you pm or email me the details please

thx

[Flying-Monkey]

"The majority of the forms I have seen were on Master Mullin's old website. That site has removed those videos."

"To be honest, the forms I have seen were not preformed well. Not in the way of a person with poor physical ability, but in the way that the people don’t understand what he is doing."

FM - I have to disagree with you here. I have seen Master Mullins demonstrate many forms many times. The man has great form, speed, and power. I have also watched him spar other Masters. He can apply what he knows as well. I'm not entirely uneducated as to what makes CMA different from JMA, KMA, MMA, whatever. I agree that there are some SD videos that do not look as CMA-like as they should. However, Master Mullins is not an example of this. I invite you to post someone you feel is a good example of what you feel a CMA form should look like. If possible find one that is similar to a SD form you have viewed. That way your critique will have some actual points for comparison. I also invite you to go to the link I posted a few pages back and read the article concerning the real history of all CMA. Then you would realize how pointless it is for anyone to say that their lineage is "authentic". You and others throw around what "the CMA community thinks" a lot. Did it ever occur to you that they might be wrong? Did it ever occur to you that their assertions of what is "real" or "authentic" may be just as big a marketing technique as any other art uses to attract students? The same "authentic" teachers you asked about SD's forms may have financially based motives for denigrating another art. Also, many are quick to say that SD is not CMA simply because the practitioner is in a gi and barefoot. If that is not the sole basis for their criticism, it often colors their opinion much more than it should. I stand by what I have said many times. There are no more pure lineages. Everything can be disputed somewhere by someone. All martial arts have traveled and grown so far from their places and times of origin that it is just plain silly to debate lineage at all. As to debating body mechanics, stances, etc. that's a matter of opinion much the same as rather or not we like the same painting or not. I have seen videos and live demonstrations by "authentic" CMA practitioners that were just as awful IMO as you think the SD forms are. The "my style is more real than your style" thing has been around as long as CMA. We're just continuing the tradition. :D


There have been many examples posted by others that show what kung fu should look like. Why don't you post some SD videos that you feel are true kung fu.

This time around I made no mention of gi.

That article about what is authentic is a little silly in my opinion. In that type of reasoning, nothing in any discipline is authentic. It also starts to leave practicality. I gives me the feeling of the argument that 1+1 does not always equal 2. Yes it is true that it does not, but in most cases it does equal 2. If you feel I am not understanding the article correctly, please explain. Which would you feel is kung fu: Wing Chun or Okinawan karate? Yes, Okinawan karate has a base in white crane, but it is not kung fu. I have seen some karate forms that have sections of kung fu forms in it, but it is not kung fu.

As for marketing, do you think it is possible that your GM is using Shaolin for marketing? Kung fu became popular in the late 60's. I grew up seeing how cool Shaolin and kung fu looked. I feel your GM used Shaolin to get more students.

WUSHU

Wushu is a different debate all together. AND there are a lot of people who feel that wushu is only a shadow of what it use to be.

BAD kung fu

I agree that there is a lot of bad REAL kung fu. There are guys in my style that i feel are crappy. However, it is because of lack of ability or not enough training or just plain laziness. Plus there are master who are making false claims too. However, the subject of this thread is SD.

Could the teachers I asked be wrong? Yes, but I truly don't think so. Could they be lying? Maybe, but i doubt it.

What I am trying to relate is that I don't think SD is real kung fu. Please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD kung fu.

[Flying-Monkey]

There are currently about, oh to make a guess, 1000 plus that support SD's claims. With a lot (maybe 100 or so) with 20 to 30 years MA experience. Whats your point?:D


Please tell me a few names of some these supporter that are not a part of SD.

Why does it seem that the only people supporting SD on this forum are SD guys or guy who were in SD?

I PM some people and a lot of them don't even bother with SD, because they feel SD is like a cult and it is like arguing with a tree.

[kungfujunky]

I agree that there is a lot of bad REAL kung fu. There are guys in my style that i feel are crappy. However, it is because of lack of ability or not enough training or just plain laziness. Plus there are master who are making false claims too. However, the subject of this thread is SD.

Could the teachers I asked be wrong? Yes, but I truly don't think so. Could they be lying? Maybe, but i doubt it.

What I am trying to relate is that I don't think SD is real kung fu. Please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD kung fu.

you said it here yourself.

could your techers be wrong...yes but you dont believe so

why is it ok for you and not for us? anyone can be wrong or misled...but after studying wit them and seeing them perform we dont think they are.

the same way you dont think you are.

please post some videos of what is supposedly good kung fu

(which by the way not one of us can claim to know since the temples didnt have video back in the day so we have no basis for comparison whatsoever besides each individual teachers interpretation of an oral tradition that they learned)

the point is moot really

sd is real. we have good eggs and bad eggs just like any other system.

the fact is it works for the thousands of us that study it.

[Citong Shifu]

Its a gracious invitation and one that I hope some SD people take you up on. I recently competed in an open tournament but it was a smaller more local event. I didn't feel that politics were an issue and I thought I was judged fairly. Most of the judges didn't even know I was SD. The Kwan Dao video and the fights that I posted were from that event.

Is your tournament in Southern Illinois? I will pass along the invitation to my teacher if you want to send me the details. I don't know if they will be interested (they seem to not care about accpetance etc as much as I do) but I will tell them.


Hey guys, I will send you all more info once everything has been finalized or more finalized....

JP - I hear you... But, I want everyone to know or understand that this invtation has nothing to do with "accepting any paticular style/system" , purely an invitation to show / introduce CMA styles....

Like I'v stated before, I could really care less about lineage claims, etc. I do however at times seem to question claims made due to marketing or advertising a particular style/art.... But, life goes on, right.....

Hopefully, we can all get together and do our thing. Who knows, might just be fun...

Sifu Ron.

[Flying-Monkey]

you said it here yourself.

could your techers be wrong...yes but you dont believe so

why is it ok for you and not for us? anyone can be wrong or misled...but after studying wit them and seeing them perform we dont think they are.

the same way you dont think you are.

please post some videos of what is supposedly good kung fu

(which by the way not one of us can claim to know since the temples didnt have video back in the day so we have no basis for comparison whatsoever besides each individual teachers interpretation of an oral tradition that they learned)

the point is moot really

sd is real. we have good eggs and bad eggs just like any other system.

the fact is it works for the thousands of us that study it.

Post some videos! The Xia and others have posted some videos.

I want to see what you, a SD man, thinks is a good example of SD.

That is why I usually write "in my opinion". I do this because I feel that anything is possible. I even feel that it is possible there is a god and that god is a potato that lives under the sea. Now, I feel that it is strongly unlike that if there is a god , it is a potato that lives under the sea or that the Sun is a big flash light or that the Moon core is cheese or that SD is REAl kung fu.

I am sorry about that last example. It was in poor taste and kind of a cheap shot, but i think you understand my point.

I feel the sam about the teacher's opinions, too. They could be wrong, but I doubt it. I have not met or spoken to any kung fu master that support SD that is not in any way connected to SD.

BJJ works. Mauy Thai works. They are not kung fu. SD works, but it is not kung fu.

[Baqualin]

Flying-Monkey,
First thanks for discussing this in an intelligent way!!
Second I'm reposting a response from earlier today

FM I highly respect your style FYI, but Go back a few pages on this thread and you'll see reference to the National Geographic special, Fight Science, view the you tube link....the Chinese wu shu champion is seen doing two of our lower level SD forms move for move....is he not doing real Kung Fu:)

[Baqualin]

The Xia posted video links (you tube) of other Martial Artist, not himself or someone from his school or system.

[tattooedmonk]

kung fu is proficiancy acheived through hard work, time and effort ,or aquired skill.

Now if someone practices karate, judo, muay thai, etc and applys hardwork, time and effort, or aquired skill does this mean that they practice kung fu ??

yes it does.....

anyone that applys hardwork, time and effort or aquired skill to any task is said to have kung fu.... you can know kung fu of masonry , painting, racing cars, or drinking beer...... it does not matter...

the level of kung fu can only be measured by the amount of time and effort or hard work or aquired skill that is applied ..

but to say that SD is not kung fu based on the outward appearence, the lineage, or the japanese flavor is just stupid...it really shows the lack of understanding as to what true Shaolin is and lacks any intellectual depth into the real meaning behind the term kung fu...

for all you keyboard martial artist that have only experinced SD online checkout a class or two ,study with a blackbelt or 2 or master, get yourself man handled hard style and you tell me that they do not know Shaolin kung fu!!!

for all of you who do not get it......you never will ... for those who still are struggling with it ......let go of your resitence.....for all of you who have...... good job...and for those of you who already knew ...keep up the good work!!!

[Baqualin]

Hey guys, I will send you all more info once everything has been finalized or more finalized....

JP - I hear you... But, I want everyone to know or understand that this invtation has nothing to do with "accepting any paticular style/system" , purely an invitation to show / introduce CMA styles....

Like I'v stated before, I could really care less about lineage claims, etc. I do however at times seem to question claims made due to marketing or advertising a particular style/art.... But, life goes on, right.....

Hopefully, we can all get together and do our thing. Who knows, might just be fun...

Sifu Ron.
Hey CS, I'm in, I was already planning to meet you someday, since your from my neck of the woods. Will there be an internal division...that's all I do now.

Maybe JP, Kwaichang, Bent Monk & I can car pool....GT can sneak in the back door and make sure we have proper form;)

[Baqualin]

Well said. I have been studing shaolindo for some time and it is and always will be the way I have chosen. But not to get off subject, but does anyoune know if
Gm Sin plans on teaching all the forms of certain systems(White crane 18 forms, Ground monkey 18 forms, etc.) instead of just one form here and there?

Ask me in class....no class this sat. I'm testing ..not sure if second gym will be open:D

[The Xia]

The Xia posted video links (you tube) of other Martial Artist, not himself or someone from his school or system.
First of all, you don't know anything about me so who are you to say that person wasn't from my system, school, or whatever. I can say he is my sifu, I can say I do that style. I can name any Kung Fu style and say I do it or I can say I don't do any Kung Fu styles. I can say I did so and so style(s) in the past but this is what I'm doing now. I can say I do absolutely nothing and never have done anything. I can say I do so and so style(s) and now teach. I can say I did so and so style(s) but I don't teach. I can say any number of these things, and more, without you knowing if it's true or false. This is the internet. And frankly, it doesn't matter what I do anyway. That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

[Radhnoti]

FM - "As for marketing, do you think it is possible that your GM is using Shaolin for marketing? Kung fu became popular in the late 60's. I grew up seeing how cool Shaolin and kung fu looked. I feel your GM used Shaolin to get more students."

I think you're pushing the "kung-fu craze" date back a bit. Early 70's is the most common timeframe I see referenced for that particular phenomenon. Sin The' started teaching in the late 60's I believe (68?). Also, he was in Lexington, Kentucky and actually had to market his style as "karate" so people would know that he was teaching a fighting system.

Invincible Yang - "does anyoune know if Gm Sin plans on teaching all the forms of certain systems(White crane 18 forms, Ground monkey 18 forms, etc.) instead of just one form here and there?"

My understanding is that GM Sin tried to teach out all of one of the Praying Mantis systems, which started out great. But as he got further into the forms of the system fewer and fewer people showed up for the seminars. That's what I've heard as the reason for not teaching out entire systems...most SD people seem to want variety.

[Flying-Monkey]

The Xia posted video links (you tube) of other Martial Artist, not himself or someone from his school or system.

I understand what you mean. However, The Xia point is not that HE is that real deal 100% kung fu man. He is showing example of what is general know as real kung fu. I know behind closed doors some of these masters talk crap about each other, but in most cases they are talking crap about their level of training or lack of the poorly done forms (by them or by their student). Sometimes I heard real or not come up but not so often. My point with The Xia posts and some of the others is that what they are expressing in basically correct (in my eyes at least).

As for the national geographic, I saw the form and yes it does seem "REAL" ( I do not know all the forms in the universe). I think I saw a SD video of a form similar to this one. However, it did not seem correct. It seems like they do not fully understand what they are doing. KMA CMA JMA all have kicks and punches etc, but they are done differently.

It kind of reminds my of musical scales. I play the bass. A C major scale can be C D E F G A B C (one octive). This scale can be play many ways on the bass. The notes are like punches and kicks etc. This is in one postion. However, you can have C major scales in two postions, two octive, in 3ths, in 6ths or even jumping all around the neck. These different ways of playing the C major scale are like CMA JMA KMA BJJ etc. In my opinion, SD is not playing the correct type of scale.

[Flying-Monkey]

I have to go to work. I will post in a few hours.

[tattooedmonk]

Here is the thing. What about Shaolin Do makes you feel it's real Chinese martial arts?

To me, everything about it looks the opposite. The lineage not only goes against the history put forth by styles that are unquestionably Chinese, but in my opinion, it's a silly story as well. It claims to be authentic Southern Temple Kung Fu, then why is it that it has a hodgepodge of forms from various styles, including forms from non-Shaolin based styles like Tai Chi Chuan. Every expert on authentic Chinese styles I've heard, that has seen Shaolin Do in action, says that it isn't real kung fu. And as Flying Monkey said, many of these people said it looked like Kenpo. it comes from a chinese source......duh!!!the forms are obviously chinese you are just to ignorant to see it because of the outward appearence which is stupid!!!

kung fu is proficiancy acheived through hard work, time and effort ,or aquired skill.

Now if someone practices karate, judo, muay thai, etc and applys hardwork, time and effort, or aquired skill does this mean that they practice kung fu ??

yes it does.....

anyone that applys hardwork, time and effort or aquired skill to any task is said to have kung fu.... you can know kung fu of masonry , painting, racing cars, or drinking beer...... it does not matter...

the level of kung fu can only be measured by the amount of time and effort or hard work or aquired skill that is applied ..

but to say that SD is not kung fu based on the outward appearence, the lineage, or the japanese flavor is just stupid...it really shows the lack of understanding as to what true Shaolin is and lacks any intellectual depth into the real meaning behind the term kung fu...

for all you keyboard martial artist that have only experinced SD online checkout a class or two ,study with a blackbelt or 2 or master, get yourself man handled hard style and you tell me that they do not know Shaolin kung fu!!!

for all of you who do not get it......you never will ... for those who still are struggling with it ......let go of your resitence.....for all of you who have...... good job...and for those of you who already knew ...keep up the good work!!!

Shaolin is not a building, location, forms or anything else other than the philosophy... a way of life

it is through this philosophy that the collection of forms has been created and makes it Shaolin..

whether they have been addded to the system or were created and modified in the system does not matter...you think to much inside of the box...you need to get out more...

think about lau gar ..is it hung gar?? NO !!!...then how come it is listed in the sets of many authentic hungar schools...or fantzi absorbed into eagle claw..was it there originally ..what about tai hsing pekwar??? was axe fist and monkey originally together??/ but they are called kung fu and authentic styles...why??? because how they look on the outside?? that is just stupid...

if you were a christian and i handed you this rolled up wad of papers and told you it was a bible would you throw it away because of how it looked or would you use the knowledge within to become a better christian???

are you really this stupid???

[tattooedmonk]

First off, you don't know anything about me so who are you to say that person wasn't from my system, school, or whatever. I can say he is my sifu, I can say I do that style. I can name any Kung Fu style and say I do it or I can say I don't do any Kung Fu styles. I can say I did so and so style(s) in the past but this is what I'm doing now. I can say any number of these things without you knowing if it's true or false. This is the internet. And frankly, it doesn't matter what I do anyway. That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.because without any experince or substantial backround in what you are trying to discuss you opinion amounts to just about SH*T!!!

[Yao Sing]

An appropriate question for this thread is one I've touched on in the past on the Mantis forum.

What exactly constitues a style? Is it the moves themselves or the way of execution? Or is it some combination of the two or something else entirely?

I study primarily Wah Lum Kung Fu but i also do some traditional Northern Mantis olus some Choy Lay Fut. I suspect no matter which one I do they all look like Wah Lum. I haven't gone deep enough into the other arts to capture the flavor and movement.

So, when I do a CLF set am I doing CLF or Wah Lum?

When I started in Wah Lum I had a background in Kenpo. The head instructor, Richard Allen, also had a Kenpo background. He would constantly tell me to stop doing Kenpo whenever I practiced Wah Lum. In his eyes I was still doing Kenpo even though the set was Wah Lum.

I bring this up because from what I've seen of SD the flavor more closely resembles Karate, not Kung Fu. So even if the sets themselves come from Kung Fu what is it?

Another related question - Does Kuntao refer to indigeneous Indonesian Arts or just the Chinese arts that migrated to Indonesia?

[The Xia]

because without any experince or substantial backround in what you are trying to discuss you opinion amounts to just about SH*T!!!
We are discussing if Shaolin Do is a Chinese martial art. My points are the same regardless of where they are coming from. And as I said, I can say anything about myself and you won't know if it's true or false. This is the nature of the internet. So what does it matter? Just look at the points. I can ask what lineages that are widely accepted as authentically Chinese did you study under and how proficient are you in these styles....Do you see me doing that? No, you can say anything so it doesn't matter. All that matters are the contents of the posts.

[The Xia]

Yeah, the term Kung Fu does mean "Time and Effort", but we are using it to refer to Chinese martial arts. Hell, I've heard people from China call Tae Kwan Do "Korean Kung Fu" and Karate "Japanese Kung Fu", but that usage is not the one we are working with here. For the purpose of this debate, Kung Fu is being used to mean Chinese martial arts.

[Yao Sing]

it comes from a chinese source......duh!!!the forms are obviously chinese

See my comments preceeding this post.


kung fu is proficiancy acheived through hard work, time and effort ,or aquired skill.

Obviously the word kung fu is not used in it's proper context in this country. The question, if you look back at the first post, is not whether SD is Kung Fu but if it's real Shaolin.


for all you keyboard martial artist that have only experinced SD online checkout a class or two ,study with a blackbelt or 2 or master, get yourself man handled hard style and you tell me that they do not know Shaolin kung fu!!!

A few pages back I asked if the seminars were open to outsiders and the answer was no. I knew that would be the answer but the point is there really isn't a reasonable way to experience SD first hand.

Nobody is going to go through the trouble of signing up for a class, paying the tuition, and spending how long in very basic classes before they get to material worthy of a fair evaluation.

Of course one SD'er claimed to learn enough in the first week to defeat multiple attackers so if true then a week would be a fair amount of time to make a judgement. You think?


Shaolin is not a building, location, forms or anything else other than the philosophy... a way of life

Sorry to nitpick but if it isn't forms then why does everyone keep offering them as proof of Shaolin legitimacy?

Sounds like you're saying you can't look at the forms to decide if it's Shaolin or not.


are you really this stupid???

Hey hey, not a fair question to ask a bunch of yoyo's that spend their spare time arguing over crap on an Internet forum. :p

[kungfujunky]

watch a black belt class.....wait for them to be doing a form in the park..happens at least once a month usually.

there are plenty of ways to see our material.

and what i said in my post was in relation to the short katas....yes i learned enough to adequately defend myself...which was my point. we teach self defense first and foremost. the more technical forms and skills come from years of training.

you want to see what we do watch a black belt class.

or join up for a month. you'll see enough people practicing to get a feel for it for sure...and youll probably get smacked around in sparring as well

:)

[Baqualin]

Flying-Monkey
As for the national geographic, I saw the form and yes it does seem "REAL" ( I do not know all the forms in the universe). I think I saw a SD video of a form similar to this one. However, it did not seem correct. It seems like they do not fully understand what they are doing. KMA CMA JMA all have kicks and punches etc, but they are done differently.

It kind of reminds my of musical scales. I play the bass. A C major scale can be C D E F G A B C (one octive). This scale can be play many ways on the bass. The notes are like punches and kicks etc. This is in one postion. However, you can have C major scales in two postions, two octive, in 3ths, in 6ths or even jumping all around the neck. These different ways of playing the C major scale are like CMA JMA KMA BJJ etc. In my opinion, SD is not playing the correct type of scale.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree with you more....I play guitar and understand scales very well.
Each musican also has his own flavor or tone that comes from his fingers or vocal chords. Forms are just like notes in music no one can play or sing a song the same way as the original musican....close sometimes, but not the same. The notes can be passed on, but how there played thats a different story. The problem is the further it gets away from the original musican the sound changes ( sometimes better)....but it's still the same notes (forms). I have to go too....off work...time to work out. Would love to discuss this more:)

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah, the term Kung Fu does mean "Time and Effort", but we are using it to refer to Chinese martial arts. Hell, I've heard people from China call Tae Kwan Do "Korean Kung Fu" and Karate "Japanese Kung Fu", but that usage is not the one we are working with here. For the purpose of this debate, Kung Fu is being used to mean Chinese martial arts.I already told you that it is american shaolin kungfu...you really are this stupid...

[tattooedmonk]

We are discussing if Shaolin Do is a Chinese martial art. My points are the same regardless of where they are coming from. And as I said, I can say anything about myself and you won't know if it's true or false. This is the nature of the internet. So what does it matter? Just look at the points. I can ask what lineages that are widely accepted as authentically Chinese did you study under and how proficient are you in these styles....Do you see me doing that? No, you can say anything so it doesn't matter. All that matters are the contents of the posts.shaolindo comes from many sources.... but it 's roots are in china and it fruits are here in america...

[tattooedmonk]

See my comments preceeding this post.



Obviously the word kung fu is not used in it's proper context in this country. The question, if you look back at the first post, is not whether SD is Kung Fu but if it's real Shaolin.



A few pages back I asked if the seminars were open to outsiders and the answer was no. I knew that would be the answer but the point is there really isn't a reasonable way to experience SD first hand.

Nobody is going to go through the trouble of signing up for a class, paying the tuition, and spending how long in very basic classes before they get to material worthy of a fair evaluation.

Of course one SD'er claimed to learn enough in the first week to defeat multiple attackers so if true then a week would be a fair amount of time to make a judgement. You think?



Sorry to nitpick but if it isn't forms then why does everyone keep offering them as proof of Shaolin legitimacy?

Sounds like you're saying you can't look at the forms to decide if it's Shaolin or not.



Hey hey, not a fair question to ask a bunch of yoyo's that spend their spare time arguing over crap on an Internet forum. :p

I have said this over and over again..... shaolin is not defined by the forms, the culture, or a set of buildings...it is the philosophy..... a way of life......the philosophy of shaolin is inherent in Shaolin Do .....The Way of Shaolin?!?!

If this is not what Shaolin is then what is it???

people keep offering up forms because that is all people see shaolin as...they are missing the true understandings of what Shaolin is.....

if no one is going to go through the "trouble" of signing up and all that..... then they do not truely want to know whether SD is real Shaolin or not....

and as for the guy that stated that in one class he felt he could whip three people...what do you expect from a new bee???

[kungfujunky]

no i stated that after a week of training , meaning 4 classes plus practice hours, i was able and confident enough to beat 3 guys who attacked me.

[The Xia]

I already told you that it is american shaolin kungfu...you really are this stupid...
You bring my intelligence into question because you don't like what I have to say. The fact that you need to use personal attacks in this debate speaks volumes about you.

We are using the term "Kung Fu" to mean Chinese martial arts. According to this definition, there is no such thing as "American Kung Fu", let alone "American Shaolin Kung Fu". As for the term Shaolin, I'm using it in the sense of a style being directly from, or having roots in, Shaolin martial arts. I'm not using it in the sense of "Shaolin Spirit", whatever the hell that is.

[tattooedmonk]

You bring my intelligence into question because you don't like what I have to say. The fact that you need to use personal attacks in this debate speaks volumes about you.

We are using the term "Kung Fu" to mean Chinese martial arts. According to this definition, there is no such thing as "American Kung Fu", let alone "American Shaolin Kung Fu". As for the term Shaolin, I'm using it in the sense of a style being directly from, or having roots in, Shaolin martial arts. I'm not using it in the sense of "Shaolin Spirit", whatever the hell that is.no I bring your intelligence into question because you have yet to prove that you know anything about shaolin other than what you have read and believe to be shaolin... plus you just keep posting the same sh*t over and over and over again ..

I was wrong you are not stupid you are insane!!!....

.....it is not chinese martial arts...how many time do we have to tell you this ?? it is here in america that is what makes it american shaolin.....

kungfu is a misnomenor...do you not get that??

if this is your definition then it surely does have roots in shaolin and is ' kung fu".

style is the way in which someone expresses themselves

if you do not know what "shaolin spirit" is then......... I recorrect myself .....you are not only insane but stupid too!!!

you do not know what shaolin is ...so just STFU!!!

[tattooedmonk]

Where is your evidence that its roots are in China? I've looked at plenty of evidence that supports just the opposite.The philospophy!!!.... and seeing as the forms are all that matter to you ...those too!!! you sir are an idiot!!!

[tattooedmonk]

no i stated that after a week of training , meaning 4 classes plus practice hours, i was able and confident enough to beat 3 guys who attacked me.my mistake.......

[Royal Dragon]

I think in this context, "Shaolin Spirt" Means they are pretending to be Shaolin, and fantasize about ancient temples, and that they have some sort of spiritual connection to the Monks of old, because they do some sort of Japanified & katraeafied patterns that they "Think" are "Chinese cool", and they are really good at playing out thier delusions in some sort of romantic manor....this = Shaolin spirit.

The rest of us see this, and just shake our heads sadly...

[Citong Shifu]

Hey CS, I'm in, I was already planning to meet you someday, since your from my neck of the woods. Will there be an internal division...that's all I do now.

Maybe JP, Kwaichang, Bent Monk & I can car pool....GT can sneak in the back door and make sure we have proper form;)


Hey Baqualin! Yes, we will most definitely have internal empty hand / weapon dividsions; taiji, bagua, hsing yi, etc.... There will be pretty much everything. We are also going to do padded staff and sword sparring :D .

I will make sure that I IM you guys when more exact details and dates are set... We will also have masters performing seminars the weekend of tournament...

It will really be a great time....

Sifu Ron...

[tattooedmonk]

Again with the personal attacks. :rolleyes:
You attack the messenger because you do not like the message. I didn’t engage in any name-calling, that’s all you. It says something about your character as well, and it isn’t positive.
In this discussion, we are using the term "Kung Fu" to mean Chinese martial arts. It is as simple as that. Where are these alleged Chinese, let alone Shaolin, roots? You can have all the Chinese forms in the world but that doesn’t mean they are being done right. Every expert on styles that are widely accepted as Chinese, that I've heard, says that Shaolin Do isn't Chinese martial arts. As for "Shaolin spirit", the history is long and individuals vary. Many monks were actually killers using the cloth as shelter, and they brought their martial arts to temples. So is "Shaolin spirit" murder and using the cloth for cover? Or is "Shaolin Spirit" the religious outlook of the Shaolin Temple? The Shaolin religious outlook is Chan Buddhist, which would disqualify Shaolin Do being that they aren't a Chan Buddhist Organization. It's not simple like you are making it out to be.iam not attacking you ...i call it like i see it!!!

idiot and stupid are based on facts not just my opinion ....

you said that shaolin is based on the forms...there are chinese shaolin forms in our art...you are basing you opinion from the outside and not the inside

...the cover not the book????

the way that they are used.....for it's intended purpose.... to avoid ,hurt, maim, or kill...no matter how pretty it looks does not mean that it will work in a fight...this is what is important not whether they look hard and rigid or soft and fluid..or the lineage or history or whatever


I already told you it is not kung fu it is not chinese it is shaolin do......

what is chan buddhism based on?? a philosophy and ideaology ...a way of life...

you do not have to have religion to be spiritual

dude you need to really get a clue...you spew out all this **** that is written all over the web by all these sources and none of it can be proven within a shaodow of a doubt...

the fact that SD has 135 schools/ programs nation wide and has well over 10000 practitioners shows it's authenticity as to what we already know SD is real that **** you spew mostly all bull**** you have no idea.

the buddha said do not believe something because it is tradition , or because everyone says it ,or believes it or because it is written in a book ..but only after you have found it to be useful and true!!

you obviously have not or you would not keep posting the same **** over and over and oer again after you questions have been ansewered for the 1000 time...

[tattooedmonk]

I think in this context, "Shaolin Spirt" Means they are pretending to be Shaolin, and fantasize about ancient temples, and that they have some sort of spiritual connection to the Monks of old, because they do some sort of Japanified & katraeafied patterns that they "Think" are "Chinese cool", and they are really good at playing out thier delusions in some sort of romantic manor....this = Shaolin spirit.

The rest of us see this, and just shake our heads sadly...well if this was the case then we would dress like monks and do our best to imitate the so called real practitoners of kung fu and would not have all the japanese trappings that we do...now would we??

by the way ....nice stance ..if that is what traditional kungfu teaches I would rather not do it because sh*t like that gets you hurt...do you know anything about physiology or body mechanics??

it is funny that all the people that trash talk SD have probably less than a bachalors degree in anything and yet all the major players have a masters degree or better in something...do you think that anyone who has a higher level of education is just going to go by ...my master said it so it must be true???

give us all a break

[Royal Dragon]

the fact that SD has 135 schools/ programs nation wide and has well over 10000 practitioners shows it's authenticity as to what we already know SD is real that **** you spew mostly all bull**** you have no idea.

Reply]
No, it means SD has a good marketing plan.....

it is funny that all the people that trash talk SD have probably less than a bachalors degree in anything and yet all the major players have a masters degree or better in something...do you think that anyone who has a higher level of education is just going to go by ...my master said it so it must be true???

Reply]
Well, considering the source here, that is exactly what happened in SD.....

[Learn]

Let me give a bow of respect to a post by Judge Pen. I paraphrase, and correct me if I am wrong but I think he said, it is what it is, I get alot out of it, and I'm not so worried about marketing. I would agree that SD offers its practioners alot of benefits. It did me. I would differ from Dapper Dan (great movie by the way), the marketing is a bit important to me. You just cannot expect to be able to use all of these multitudes of styles with effectiveness with one lifetime of learning. If SD purported to teach elements of many styles, that would be one thing, and quite fine, but to suggest it will teach you these myriad of styles, is disingenuous. Perhaps this is a fine point, but one I think is important. A thing that concerns me is that the styles being taught are not what one would learn in studying the sole dedicated style. That was my experience. To suggest that Sin The was the heir of all shaolin styles seems to me a marketing tool, and one disposed of quite quickly if you train with someone who is a learned teacher in one of those particular styles. Sin The has alot to offer, I doubt all the controversy would have erupted if he had not claimed ownership to all that is all Shaolin.

[sunfist]

We have 3 or 4 posters on here saying SD is not real. there are 7-8000 who say it is real. Most who say it isnt real have only seen clips or demo tapes and not the real thing.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43265

I am genuinely curious with regards to numbers, it will be interesting to see.

Also, note that while some, nay many, may be judging SD based upon evidence other than first hand experience, have the majority of SDers gone out and studied each of the arts which it claims to incorporate in dedicated schools? If not, how does that leave them in any better position to judge which is 'right'.

[Flying-Monkey]

I did he liked them and thought they were the real deal. KC

What was this teacher's name and what style?

Next time, don't say you are SD. Show them a video. Back in the day, I was giulty of the same thing. Someone shows me a form, and i say it was good or it was real.

[Flying-Monkey]

I am not going to argue about where, how or from whom GM The learned his stuff. This is mainly because we can never know (not even his top students). Only His brother and he know the truth. It could have been from teachers, books or reels.

I am concerned with the way the forms are done. Please post some examples of good SD forms.

[Judge Pen]

Let me give a bow of respect to a post by Judge Pen. I paraphrase, and correct me if I am wrong but I think he said, it is what it is, I get alot out of it, and I'm not so worried about marketing. I would agree that SD offers its practioners alot of benefits. It did me. I would differ from Dapper Dan (great movie by the way), the marketing is a bit important to me. You just cannot expect to be able to use all of these multitudes of styles with effectiveness with one lifetime of learning. If SD purported to teach elements of many styles, that would be one thing, and quite fine, but to suggest it will teach you these myriad of styles, is disingenuous. Perhaps this is a fine point, but one I think is important. A thing that concerns me is that the styles being taught are not what one would learn in studying the sole dedicated style. That was my experience. To suggest that Sin The was the heir of all shaolin styles seems to me a marketing tool, and one disposed of quite quickly if you train with someone who is a learned teacher in one of those particular styles. Sin The has alot to offer, I doubt all the controversy would have erupted if he had not claimed ownership to all that is all Shaolin.

You paraphrased well. And most of the individuals that study SD for a while will admit (some freely and some begrudgingly) that their understanding of Pa Kua or [insert system here] is not at the depth that it would be if they had studied that system exclusively (from a teacher that taught that system exclusively). The end result of SD, because of the way it is taught, is that each individual learns the pieces of a system that works for them and that amalgamation is what SD is to them. What Sin The is a Master in, according to his certificate is Golden Snake. As far as I know, he hasn't publically taught or demonstrated his master style.

And Xia, get off the lineage. I don't have to believe the story to believe that the forms we have are of Chinese origin albeit performed with our own flavor. I believe that flying monkey will agree that most CMA styles taught today have bogus or made up lineages lurking in their past.

And Flying Moneky if you didn't think that Master Mullins' forms were good, then we probably can't show you something that would be better--only maybe a better choice of forms. I remember those vids you are speaking of. They weren't full speed, but Master Garry is one of the better forms people in our style. If that's not good enough, then just accept us saying that our stuff is done with its own flavor which makes it different from most other places claiming to do the same styles.

P.S. forgive the typos and spelling. I'm on my first cup of coffee.

[Judge Pen]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43265

I am genuinely curious with regards to numbers, it will be interesting to see.

Also, note that while some, nay many, may be judging SD based upon evidence other than first hand experience, have the majority of SDers gone out and studied each of the arts which it claims to incorporate in dedicated schools? If not, how does that leave them in any better position to judge which is 'right'.

I'm working on learning and comparing much of my stuff, but options are limited. A few foirms from a few sytems have been compared and they are, in my opinon, more similar than most people here would believe; however, the way they are played (even with the same principles in place) make it different. Example: our tai chi is generally performed much slower than others. 24 posture takes 12 minutes if performed at the speed we are taught. There are reasons for this, but that certainly makes the flow of the form different than most.

[Golden Tiger]

have the majority of SDers gone out and studied each of the arts which it claims to incorporate in dedicated schools?

I can only speak for myself and the answer to the first part is no, I have only "studied" SD. I have though, through out the many years, trained with, fought with and talked to people from many many styles. And it might seem strange to some of the people here but if it was "right" or not never really came up. We worked out, traded punches, shared some of the techniques we knew and went on about our business. And during this time, I learned a lot from others but also, I got quite a few "wow, I never really saw that move that way".


If not, how does that leave them in any better position to judge which is 'right'.

While I am sure it has happened from time to time, most of the SD students don't judge other arts on if they are 'right' or not. Personally, if I see some different way that say Hsing Ie is done and I think it will help me, then it is 'right'. If I don't see any merit in it, its no less 'wrong', its just the way it is.

Not that anyone will listen, but I would like to touch on this supreme marketing campaign that SD has according to some here. To put it bluntly, there is none. (speaking only of the areas I know) Last time I checked, there was about 100 or so students at the Lex. gym. Aside from a small ad in the yellow pages, all new classes are advertised by word of mouth. No flyers,no demos, no newspaper ads, no nothing. There may be a mention of it on the web these days but even that is minor. The school is called "Sin The' Karate Club" and they teach the art of Shaolin-Do. I would say that 90% of the people have never heard of shaolin other than it is a temple or something in China. So all this BS about using the mighty legend of Shaolin in order to get students is kind of silly. Students that like it tell their friends and get them to join. That is our super secret, marketing plan developed by a team of MBA's that we borrowed from all the major companies in the Fortune 100. :rolleyes:

So, I am feeling the effect of my morning tea, what else do you want to talk about?:D

[sunfist]

Creation versus evolution should do the trick, care to toss a coin for who gets creation?

[MasterKiller]

So all this BS about using the mighty legend of Shaolin in order to get students is kind of silly

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/v_legends_v3.html ;)

[Baqualin]

I can only speak for myself and the answer to the first part is no, I have only "studied" SD. I have though, through out the many years, trained with, fought with and talked to people from many many styles. And it might seem strange to some of the people here but if it was "right" or not never really came up. We worked out, traded punches, shared some of the techniques we knew and went on about our business. And during this time, I learned a lot from others but also, I got quite a few "wow, I never really saw that move that way".



While I am sure it has happened from time to time, most of the SD students don't judge other arts on if they are 'right' or not. Personally, if I see some different way that say Hsing Ie is done and I think it will help me, then it is 'right'. If I don't see any merit in it, its no less 'wrong', its just the way it is.

Not that anyone will listen, but I would like to touch on this supreme marketing campaign that SD has according to some here. To put it bluntly, there is none. (speaking only of the areas I know) Last time I checked, there was about 100 or so students at the Lex. gym. Aside from a small ad in the yellow pages, all new classes are advertised by word of mouth. No flyers,no demos, no newspaper ads, no nothing. There may be a mention of it on the web these days but even that is minor. The school is called "Sin The' Karate Club" and they teach the art of Shaolin-Do. I would say that 90% of the people have never heard of shaolin other than it is a temple or something in China. So all this BS about using the mighty legend of Shaolin in order to get students is kind of silly. Students that like it tell their friends and get them to join. That is our super secret, marketing plan developed by a team of MBA's that we borrowed from all the major companies in the Fortune 100. :rolleyes:

So, I am feeling the effect of my morning tea, what else do you want to talk about?:D

I will back GT up on the Lexington school....EML runs this school and would teach for free if he could afford to.....he could care less about marketing.....his only concern is to pass on the art......our fees are the lowest of any school in the area and as long as he can pay the bills to keep the doors open and take care of his wife he's happy. Also he could care less about what you all think:D

I also have played with and will continue to play with other MA's of all styles and know one has question what I do....only showed respect.

[Baqualin]

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

Hey Xia, did you ever figure out what reverse breathing is?:rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/v_legends_v3.html ;)


Wonder how many people, aside from current students or those on this forum have a copy of that or even know of the site? And to be candid, thats a Atl. creation and to the best of my knowledge, there are no copies at the Lex gym. (which is where I was refering to if you read my opening statment.;)

By the way, welcome back MK. I almost thought that you left us.

[Judge Pen]

I pay $45 a month for my instruction so I think its a good price. Most SD teachers don't teach full time.

[Flying-Monkey]

Hey Xia, did you ever figure out what reverse breathing is?:rolleyes:

Why don't you just answer his question?

[MasterKiller]

By the way, welcome back MK. I almost thought that you left us.

MK is the Alpha and Omega. The Beginning and the End. The First and the Last.

[Judge Pen]

MK is the Alpha and Omega. The Beginning and the End. The First and the Last.

Not only that, but he has a high opinion of himself too. :p

[Flaca]

I did he liked them and thought they were the real deal. KC


You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?


Hey Xia, did you ever figure out what reverse breathing is?:rolleyes:

Actually Xia, KC is showing previously unseen humility. His SD is spectacular, much like EMMullins; low stances, good power and form, flexibility & speed. If KC (or EMMullins) showed a form, it would look better than any of the videos I've personally seen. The same is true for a lot of SD'ers. ;)

[The Xia]

Hey Xia, did you ever figure out what reverse breathing is?:rolleyes:
Again with that. I will give you the same response. If you think you know the answer, post it! And post it on the southern forum. ;)

[Baqualin]

Again with that. I will give you the same response. If you think you know the answer, post it! And post it on the southern forum. ;)

If you're so knowledgeable about CMA, you should know the answer....It's part of our SD training....give me a reason to respect you as a martial artist & I'll answer any question you ask. I was only trying to make a point...if your going to slam us know what your slamming...visit a school and watch our classes...work out with us...it's free to see......we're friendly & open people always willing to learn & share......come to Lexington and I'll put you up in my house and feed you...we can watch SD videos till your eyes are red.....go to the gym and work out...spar...do forms...push hands, meet some of the highest ranking masters in the SD system and judge for youself.:)

Also it's a free country....please don't tell me where to post...thats my choice:D

[ricardocameron]

You are the one defending the claims that there is a lineage of kung fu that traces back to the Fukien Shaolin temple's "first grandmaster", who happens to have a disease that makes him hairy all over. This story contradicts Chinese martial arts history. In my opinion, it is also silly and not a good story.




Who's version of CMA history?

They didn't write $hit down!! Just ask the Hung Gar crowd about History and Lineage... and stand back, quickly.. :D

[kungfujunky]

If you're so knowledgeable about CMA, you should know the answer....It's part of our SD training....give me a reason to respect you as a martial artist & I'll answer any question you ask. I was only trying to make a point...if your going to slam us know what your slamming...visit a school and watch our classes...work out with us...it's free to see......we're friendly & open people always willing to learn & share......come to Lexington and I'll put you up in my house and feed you...we can watch SD videos till your eyes are red.....go to the gym and work out...spar...do forms...push hands, meet some of the highest ranking masters in the SD system and judge for youself.:)

Also it's a free country....please don't tell me where to post...thats my choice:D

can i come hang out with you?

lol

that would rock!

[Judge Pen]

Who's version of CMA history?

They didn't write $hit down!! Just ask the Hung Gar crowd about History and Lineage... and stand back, quickly.. :D

or wing chun.....

or CLF.....

or any esoteric southern style.....

I admit, there are things not right about our story of history. There are also things not right with others. If you need a verifiable history and lineage for you to believe that a chinese martial art has any value to it, then you wouldn't be doing kung fu.

[ricardocameron]

or wing chun.....

or CLF.....

or any esoteric southern style.....

I admit, there are things not right about our story of history. There are also things not right with others. If you need a verifiable history and lineage for you to believe that a chinese martial art has any value to it, then you wouldn't be doing kung fu.

Or Ed Parker's Kenpo...it too came from CMA. Kenpo is the japanese version of chinese Chuan Fa.. "Fist Way" And It would seem Jeff Speakman knows a few things, maybe. ;)

So Kenpo(Kempo) is Kung Fu too, right? ;)

[Baqualin]

can i come hang out with you?

lol

that would rock!

Didn't I already give you an invite?:D

[kungfujunky]

Didn't I already give you an invite?:D


lol to true

[Flying-Monkey]

If you're so knowledgeable about CMA, you should know the answer....It's part of our SD training....give me a reason to respect you as a martial artist & I'll answer any question you ask. I was only trying to make a point...if your going to slam us know what your slamming...visit a school and watch our classes...work out with us...it's free to see......we're friendly & open people always willing to learn & share......come to Lexington and I'll put you up in my house and feed you...we can watch SD videos till your eyes are red.....go to the gym and work out...spar...do forms...push hands, meet some of the highest ranking masters in the SD system and judge for youself.:)

Also it's a free country....please don't tell me where to post...thats my choice:D

I would like to know what reverse breathing is. Maybe I know it by a different name.

And

What about The Xia question:

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

Please answer.

And

please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD forms.

[The Xia]

I would like to know what reverse breathing is. Maybe I know it by a different name.

And

What about The Xia question:

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

Please answer.

And

please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD forms.
I couldn't have put that better myself.

[Judge Pen]

I would like to know what reverse breathing is. Maybe I know it by a different name.

If you know it by a differnt name it would be Taoist breath or maybe even the "pre-birth" breath. It is taught in certain internal aspects of SD

And

What about The Xia question:

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

Please answer.

They wouldn't if you told the Su Kong story. If you didn't talk history, weren't wearing a gi and going barefoot, and were a pretty good forms person then they wouldn't be offended by the forms. They would notice differences, but not gross differences.

And

please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD forms.

I've already told you. If you didn't like Master Mullins' forms, then I won't be able to provide you a better example.

[Flaca]

I couldn't have put that better myself.


I would like to know what reverse breathing is. Maybe I know it by a different name.
.
I believe we use reverse breathing during eagle claw training.



And

What about The Xia question:

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

Please answer.

And

please post some videos of what you feel are good examples of SD forms.
Can't post any videos. I've heard the stories (of well received demos of SD forms at a shaolin temple), but don't know any traditional sifus outside SD to ask. Lots of traditional sifus inside SD, won't name them here. :)

[Baqualin]

Flying- Monkey...I highly respect you as a CMA and your general attitude....so JP is correct in calling it taoist breathing...buddist breathing is the most common...when inhaling the lower abdomen is expanded..on the exhale it is contracted. In Reverse, negative, or Taoist the lower abdomen is contracted on the inhale and expanded on the exhale. This is the simple explanation of course with out getting into the chi movement.


What about The Xia question:

You expect us to believe that you told a traditional sifu the Su Kong story, showed him some Shaolin Do forms, and he, in all seriousness, said it was the "real deal"?

This question was directed toward Kwaichang not me:)


Also I responded to any earlier post of yours related to musical scales...I'm a guitar player...messed with bass a little and really enjoyed it....I liked your analogy:D

[tattooedmonk]

I showed the forms to a sifu of another style, I never said I went into the lineage or Soo Kong story I had on a tee shirt and karate pants and w/o shoes. So as not to Bias the teacher. He said they were the real deal but a little different.
Also I have a friend in the Wah Lum style who iI have spoken with as well and W/o with in the past. Still no adverse reactions. KCbecause anyone that is really doing the arts does not care about the outward appearences or the lineage ...all that matters is whether it works or not!!!ShaolinDo works and this is what makes it real!!!!

[Flying-Monkey]

Also I responded to any earlier post of yours related to musical scales...I'm a guitar player...messed with bass a little and really enjoyed it....I liked your analogy:D

I feel this strongly. The more your practice and keep your chops up, the better you play. It is also easy to learn new stuff. it is the same with martial arts.

I respect the passion SD men have for protecting their art and their love for MA.

[Flying-Monkey]

because anyone that is really doing the arts does not care about the outward appearences or the lineage ...all that matters is whether it works or not!!!ShaolinDo works and this is what makes it real!!!!

Monk,

"Real what?" is my question. Before you answer, I don't want to get into a cyclic debate about the bearded monk who mastered all of the techniques and styles. Because I cannot prove to you it is false and you cannot prove to me it is true. I have never been to the temple. I cannot read Chinese to the point to read the old scrolls. The internet is filled with good info and bad info.

Even the strongest debater against SD will not and cannot argue its ability in the ring. However, is SD shaolin in the sense that most (credible) people think shaolin is?

[Flying-Monkey]

I showed the forms to a sifu of another style, I never said I went into the lineage or Soo Kong story I had on a tee shirt and karate pants and w/o shoes. So as not to Bias the teacher. He said they were the real deal but a little different.
Also I have a friend in the Wah Lum style who iI have spoken with as well and W/o with in the past. Still no adverse reactions. KC

I don't mean to seem nit-picky, but he is your friend. why would he tell his friend who worked hard and learned how to fight that what he does is not real?

[Flying-Monkey]

What does this breathing do for the MAist?

[Flying-Monkey]

I have heard of him. Unfortunately, I feel that he was just a legend. There really isn't any proof he was real. It is not only this bearded monk, but other heros in Chinese history. I think that most of them were real people, but they were hyped up.

[kungfujunky]

the breathing is a way of channeling the chi...without going to in depth.

there is a lot more to the whole set of postures and breathing techniques than that simple answer but that is it in a nut shell...gt or bq could probably explain it better

there have been a number of people who say they have heard of su kong outside of sd talks. does that not lead some credibility to at least the fact that he was a real person?

i do know that gmt has some documents that would settle this debate but sadly he doesnt feel the need to worry about people who arent his students.

i often wonder if he would grant an extensive interview to answer a lot of these questions....

[Flying-Monkey]

I heard of a kind of breathing like that, but it is not shaolin (like someone mentioned before). I heard it was more for longevity than for fighting.

I heard of a very hairy monk who was very skilled, but I may be confusing it with the journey to the West. It was a long time ago.

Su Kong was a kung fu genius (according to SD lore). He did the impossible, so why isn't he more famous like Wong fei Hung, and the others.

Jesus is very famous. However, the only proof of him is in the bible. A book that I feel cannot be relied upon. Go to Google video and do search on Penn and Teller's Bullsh!t show. They did a show about the bible. Yes, I know you can't rely on two magical comedians, but they make a lot of good points.

[Golden Tiger]

If Su Kong were real, why is it that he is only in the Shaolin Do lineage chart and not a major figure in Chinese folklore?


This photo was debated a few thousand posts ago it seems, but from what i remember, it is in a building off to the side of the main temple. It is part of a famous photo essay done circa 1928. Does it look like anyone we know?

[kungfujunky]

cool link gt thanks...i hadnt seen that one

the xia....since su kong had to abruptly leave the temple due to fire and persecution isnt it also possible there was no that wanted to talk about the now outlawed shaolin martial artists?

the other legend you continue to speak of is so widely used because so many use it. can these other schools prove their lineage beyond a reasonable doubt? and we also have the five elders in our history...but thats not exactly where our teachings came from.

i ask again...who here can claim to know real cma when there is no video referance of actual shaolin performing it from 200 years ago? cma..specifically shaolin is an oral tradition.

there is no way any lineage, any school, any sifu can claim to do real cma when all the martial arts we have today are passed down from master to master....each master adds their own flavor. so isnt it possible then that our real cma looks different than yours? isnt it possible that gm ie and gm t have added their own flavors to sd to preserve and protect it during turbulent times?

to be so hard lined about something as flimsy as "real cma" is really close minded in my opinion.

since not one of us can claim to know what "real cma" looks like. all we can know is what our teachers have shown us. and their style could be tremendously different from what "real cma" is supposed to be.

and again i think the greatest aid to sd is that clip from the fight science show. a celebrated wu shu champion and real cma shaolin kung fu practicioner does our material. not just a punch or kick either. he does nearly half of a form. a form that no one claims is real kung fu. yet there it is! on tv! performed by a champion no less.

[Flying-Monkey]

This photo was debated a few thousand posts ago it seems, but from what i remember, it is in a building off to the side of the main temple. It is part of a famous photo essay done circa 1928. Does it look like anyone we know?

Is it Sun Wu kung?

[Judge Pen]

I heard of a kind of breathing like that, but it is not shaolin (like someone mentioned before). I heard it was more for longevity than for fighting.

It is also used to provide a boost of energy, but I'm not the most knowledgable person in all things chi. It is interesting to notice the effects of practicing this type of breath. It is introduced during the bird training on Hua tuo's five animal frolics--a very old style of chi gong that developed outside of the temple. SD teaches and practices this style of Chi gong and it is taught at the same time that we are taught SD's Hsing-Ie.

I heard of a very hairy monk who was very skilled, but I may be confusing it with the journey to the West. It was a long time ago.

Su Kong was a kung fu genius (according to SD lore). He did the impossible, so why isn't he more famous like Wong fei Hung, and the others.

Jesus is very famous. However, the only proof of him is in the bible. A book that I feel cannot be relied upon. Go to Google video and do search on Penn and Teller's Bullsh!t show. They did a show about the bible. Yes, I know you can't rely on two magical comedians, but they make a lot of good points.


As far as the story anaolgies, you know that I agree with you--I think he was a fable first told in Indonesia. Certain branches of CLF have an individual in thier lineage known as the "green grass monk" that isn't found in other lineages of martial arts, but it doesn't dilute the origins of their forms as being Chinese.

[BentMonk]

This might look familiar to my SD buds as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGIHXVeL24o&NR

[Flying-Monkey]

As far as the story anaolgies, you know that I agree with you--I think he was a fable first told in Indonesia. Certain branches of CLF have an individual in thier lineage known as the "green grass monk" that isn't found in other lineages of martial arts, but it doesn't dilute the origins of their forms as being Chinese.

The validity of a person or character is not the focus of my question. I was side tracked a bit. Plus, the branch of CLF's forms and history are not in question.

[Baqualin]

The validity of a person or character is not the focus of my question. I was side tracked a bit. Plus, the branch of CLF's forms and history are not in question.

That happens alot on here.....please restate your main question.....I would like to respond.:)

[The Willow Sword]

THAT PHOTO posted by GT was already answered by Gene ching. and i believe he said that was a buddhist Deityas it is very common for buddhist temples and taoist temples to carve images of the celestial deities and gods. its NOT Li Baoshu or as you guys call him (su kong). i thought you guys had better sense than that.


you know with this past tourney that you guys went to and such i wonder why none of you have ever asked Sin The' about all this. i seem to remember at somepoint that a few of you were going to? Did you get cold feet or something? Did you forget? i hardly think so since those of you who post here on a regular basis and who go to these seminars and tourneys. you know what i think, i think you guys are AFRAID to ask these questions for FEAR of some reprisal or bill leonard getting up in your face or any of the other seniors there.

If i could ask Sin The about it i would, but i understand the fear that you guys have by not bringing it up.

TWS

[Flaca]

you know with this past tourney that you guys went to and such i wonder why none of you have ever asked Sin The' about all this. i seem to remember at somepoint that a few of you were going to? Did you get cold feet or something? Did you forget? i hardly think so since those of you who post here on a regular basis and who go to these seminars and tourneys. you know what i think, i think you guys are AFRAID to ask these questions for FEAR of some reprisal or bill leonard getting up in your face or any of the other seniors there.

If i could ask Sin The about it i would, but i understand the fear that you guys have by not bringing it up.

TWS
You mean, should we ask GM Sin if he's a liar, if the lineage he speaks of is not true? Fear isn't in it, it would be completely disrespectful to do so.
Not only that, but none of us truly cares about the lineage. What matters to us is that we've improved our lives, our health and our safety from his training. He's made us all better people, and we thank him for it and show him the respect he's earned.

[Citong Shifu]

Can anyone tell me if there are anymore SD videos online, other than the kwon do vid? I keep hearing others talk about other video examples, but cant seem to find them....

Thanks
Sifu Ron

[Judge Pen]

Can anyone tell me if there are anymore SD videos online, other than the kwon do vid? I keep hearing others talk about other video examples, but cant seem to find them....

Thanks
Sifu Ron

forms or fighting?



Here's an SD student in a MMA fight agasint a wrestler: http://media.putfile.com/ShaolinDo


Here's Jiu Jitsu Joe's fight with the same student: http://media.putfile.com/2nd-fight


And here's GM Sin The' himself (in the early 80s) breaking a block suspended by twine:
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/4519/gmsinthebreak.mpg

Also, here is a site with videos (although I have difficulty viewing them on my computer): http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/

[MasterKiller]

Can anyone tell me if there are anymore SD videos online, other than the kwon do vid? I keep hearing others talk about other video examples, but cant seem to find them....

Thanks
Sifu Ron

Browse around here.

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=1

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

[Golden Tiger]

you know with this past tourney that you guys went to and such i wonder why none of you have ever asked Sin The' about all this. i seem to remember at somepoint that a few of you were going to? Did you get cold feet or something? Did you forget? i hardly think so since those of you who post here on a regular basis and who go to these seminars and tourneys. you know what i think, i think you guys are AFRAID to ask these questions for FEAR of some reprisal or bill leonard getting up in your face or any of the other seniors there.

Actually, I spent about 3 hours with him TWS and you know, we talked about a lot of stuff but satisfying your contention that he is a liar didn't seem to come up.

Sorry.:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Actually, I spent about 3 hours with him TWS and you know, we talked about a lot of stuff but satisfying your contention that he is a liar didn't seem to come up.

Sorry.:rolleyes:


Did he mention when the movie is coming out? :p

[Baqualin]

THAT PHOTO posted by GT was already answered by Gene ching. and i believe he said that was a buddhist Deityas it is very common for buddhist temples and taoist temples to carve images of the celestial deities and gods. its NOT Li Baoshu or as you guys call him (su kong). i thought you guys had better sense than that.


you know with this past tourney that you guys went to and such i wonder why none of you have ever asked Sin The' about all this. i seem to remember at somepoint that a few of you were going to? Did you get cold feet or something? Did you forget? i hardly think so since those of you who post here on a regular basis and who go to these seminars and tourneys. you know what i think, i think you guys are AFRAID to ask these questions for FEAR of some reprisal or bill leonard getting up in your face or any of the other seniors there.

If i could ask Sin The about it i would, but i understand the fear that you guys have by not bringing it up.

TWS
Why can't you ask him yourself:confused: You have proven nothing...not even that Su Kong is Li Baoshu.....I've listen to people like you for over 30 years and could care less...I'm personal friends with GSM and I know what we have, stories and legends are just that. Grand Master Sin came to this country as a very YOUNG man...he was raised in Indo. and trained in a way you cannot even conceive...he believes what he believes as it was passed on to him from GMIe.....who was for real...we have seen where GSM and his brother trained and met his colleages who some of are still alive. I did ask about you at the tourney and dude you got issues. I'm sorry for what happen to you...but you made your bed...sleep in it:)

[Baqualin]

Did he mention when the movie is coming out? :p

I must say, at least you make people smile.
You must have been born with a can opener in your mouth;)

[tattooedmonk]

the xia is what they refer to as the lower dan tien...... you know where your bowels are ...no wonder he is so full of SH*T!!!

[MasterKiller]

You guys can dig up 1928 photos of a Shaolin bath house, but how come no one can post a photograph of Ie Ching Men? Or how about a photograph of Sin with Ie?

[Flying-Monkey]

That happens alot on here.....please restate your main question.....I would like to respond.:)


Well, the main question is why are SD forms so different that people say they are not real kung fu?

[Flying-Monkey]

the xia is what they refer to as the lower dan tien...... you know where your bowels are ...no wonder he is so full of SH*T!!!


What is with the insults.

How can someone be full of Sh!t when they are asking questions. You bad mouth him when he feels his questions were not answer properly.

[The Willow Sword]

Check your PM's KC

[Flaca]

Hey TWS I am probably going to be in Austin in Feb at the tourney I will e-mail you then and set up a meeting with GMT do you agree to meet and ask your foolish questions/ ???? KC


Can I watch? :p

[Baqualin]

Well, the main question is why are SD forms so different that people say they are not real kung fu?

In my opinion, SD is not playing the correct type of scale.[/quote]

I couldn't agree with you more....I play guitar and understand scales very well.
Each musican also has his own flavor or tone that comes from his fingers or vocal chords. Forms are just like notes in music no one can play or sing a song the same way as the original musican....close sometimes, but not the same. The notes can be passed on, but how there played thats a different story. The problem is the further it gets away from the original musican the sound changes ( sometimes better)....but it's still the same notes (forms).
Would love to discuss this more...I have to go test this morning:)

[The Willow Sword]

Hey TWS I am probably going to be in Austin in Feb at the tourney I will e-mail you then and set up a meeting with GMT do you agree to meet and ask your foolish questions/ ???? KC


You know this will never happen, even though i agreed to it in pm's with KC. I envision a scenario where he goes up to sin the and tells him that there is a former disciple who wants to ask him some questions about the lineage and when he gives sin the a brief background on the subject he is going to get a scolding, because i dont think sin the or any of the senior masters close to him even know that you guys posts on these forums and if they did find out they would prolly get p!ssed at you guys and order you to stop posting here.

so i dont think this meeting will ever take place. TWS

[Yao Sing]

I'm sure there are plenty others around here that would step in for TWS and do the 'interview' with GMT.

In fact, I'll bet he get's a lot of requests for interviews and turns them down all the time. So if you have that much pull that you can get GMT to answer a few questions why not set up a real interview with an objective writer? I'm sure Gene would be willing to run the transcript in the magazine. At least it could be an e-zine article.

Heck, I'll do it if nobody else will.

BTW, I'm talking about a straight up interview with real questions, not a bashing session or a snow job.

[MasterKiller]

SO where's the photos of Ie?

[The Willow Sword]

Use your brain and reading comprehension skills KC and tell me where i said that i am backing out of it? Nowhere, correct? CORRECT. im saying YET AGAIN that i think it will not happen because of the reasons i mentioned earlier.

plus i dont think that KC has that much pull with Sin the' but i will give him the benefit of the doubt and just wait and see. Also KC feels there needs to be witnesses to corroborate what is said. so there will be a witness on his side of the fence and anyone who is not an SD person on my side who wished to witness with me then Pm me or state it so here and we are on.

but like i said earlier, this isnt going to happen, not because i want to back out of it(which i never said that i wanted to) but because sin the and his cohorts will advise him against this and KC will get the scolding of his life for being here on these forums along with the rest of the SD'ers who post and argue here. I am sure that bill leonard and sin the and a few of the other higher ups dont even want you guys posting on these forums. with the exception of maybe the mullins crew who had their own forums set up a while back right? but did it not get taken down because of the controversies and such?

HELL ill even BET That Gene ching and the KFM magazine would love to witness this meeting and report on the answers and put it in an issue for the early spring.

TWS

[Golden Tiger]

because i dont think sin the or any of the senior masters close to him even know that you guys posts on these forums and if they did find out they would prolly get p!ssed at you guys and order you to stop posting here.



They do...and they haven't;)

[The Willow Sword]

It was YOU who offered to set up this "Meeting" and it has been YOU who has made all these stipulations INCLUDING the Witnesses. I have just gone along with it and agreed to such a meeting, IF IT CAN BE SET UP (which i do not think it will).

i honestly do not know what kind of set up you are trying to pull here KC but this dialogue you are exhibiting now makes me wonder as to the real intentions of this meeting. if i make an added suggestion that there be someone on my side to witness all this then i have a right to do so. what do you think that i am stupid enough to go and meet with you guys at some location without having ANY type of representation on my end? I seem to remember this very thing being taken away from me when i went to go challenge reemul. sorry KC but i am not going to get singled out here. There are MANY who would LOVE the opportunity to ask sin the' questions about the history and lineage of what he claims. Yet sin the has turned down many offers to be interviewed( gee i wonder why:rolleyes: ) and yet YOU are just going to set up some informal meeting at a resteraunt? with just you two, so that these questions CAN be addressed?
LOLOLOLOL you must take me for a complete fool.

As for there being any danger to me with regards to you or any other sd goon wanting to take a crack at me because i am so disrespecting and offending their very honor and whatever BS they can think up, i could care less and i am not afraid of ANY of you. But i have since learned my lessons and will not be so naive .
now there is a recod of all this here on this forum, the record will show that YOU initiated this little meeting and that YOU made all the stipulations and conditions(even in Pm's) and that I accepted As long as no-one gets their panties in a wad and as long as there is no threats of violence.
You guys have a history of doing damage and getting up in peoples faces with bill leonard at the front of the pack, what with past rivalries and such.
And this isnt about some challenge match in the ring to see who is better, this is confronting the questions that we ALL Have with regards to all the outlandish claims that your school makes and what your school professes to teach only through them.
so if you can set it up KC then go ahead. give a date and a place and time, you show up with your witnesses to corrorborate and i will show up with mine(whomever wishes to do so)

personally i think this is all a bunch of horsesh!t, but hey i could be wrong. time will tell and we will all see. Let's all see if KC has the pull to actually set this up.


TWS

[Flying-Monkey]

In my opinion, SD is not playing the correct type of scale.

I couldn't agree with you more....I play guitar and understand scales very well.
Each musican also has his own flavor or tone that comes from his fingers or vocal chords. Forms are just like notes in music no one can play or sing a song the same way as the original musican....close sometimes, but not the same. The notes can be passed on, but how there played thats a different story. The problem is the further it gets away from the original musican the sound changes ( sometimes better)....but it's still the same notes (forms).
Would love to discuss this more...I have to go test this morning:)[/QUOTE]

I think of Kung fu as Classical music. People have been performing it for a long time but it for years but most of this pieces have not changed much.

As for adding flavor, I think of what Jaco Pastorius did with Charlie Parker's "Donna lee". The opening theme is the same but the solo is different. However, it is easily heard as the same song.

I feel that SD is like playing Punk Rock and saying it is Jazz.

[Flying-Monkey]

" honestly do not know what kind of set up you are trying to pull here KC but this dialogue you are exhibiting now makes me wonder as to the real intentions of this meeting. if i make an added suggestion that there be someone on my side to witness all this then i have a right to do so. what do you think that i am stupid enough to go and meet with you guys at some location without having ANY type of representation on my end? I seem to remember this very thing being taken away from me when i went to go challenge reemul."

"It is Feburary I will pay your way into the tournament then you can ask your questions. Or perhaps at Trudys GMT likes the Mexican food there ."

ORIGINAL STATEMENT BELOW
Hey TWS I am probably going to be in Austin in Feb at the tourney I will e-mail you then and set up a meeting with GMT do you agree to meet and ask your foolish questions/ ???? KC

I am offering to try to give you the opportunity to do what you said you wanted to do and now you are backing out. Your beef with Master Joe is your own thing you live in Austin why dont you go and tell him how you feel ? you know where he is ? Right. KC

"Dont try to pretend to know what I am going to say or do: you are making excuses. I am offering to try to give you the opportunity to do what you said you wanted to do "
WELL I GUESS IT WONT HAPPEN ALL I WANTED WAS A LITTLE INFORMAL QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION JUST US 3, I probably could have pulled that off maybe. You see WS has opted to make this so complicated that it will never happen his Paranoia is exhibited with the ststement above. KC


I am willing to do it next summer. That give you a lot of time to set it up.

[Yao Sing]

I was thinking more along the lines of taping an impartial interview, transcribing it, then posting it up as an e-zine article or printed in the mag.

I can't imagine GMT agreeing to meet a hard core detractor and I don't think everyone here would take serious an SD proponent asking soft questions.

[Flying-Monkey]

Sorry Yao i dont know you. But thanks for the offer. KC

Why is not knowing him a problem?

[The Willow Sword]

KC is trying to state that i am wanting to back out of things and make excuses. well i keep on saying that i am NOT BACKING OUT OF ANYTHING.

I think that KC now realizes that this little informal meeting is not going to happen because it is not in sin the's interests to answer mine or anyones questions regarding the lineage of SD. i am totally agreeing to go to a meeting that KC is supposedly going to set up and ask some questions, and being that i was a former loyal follower of sd i think KC feels that SIn the would be up for having some quiet informal meeting at a resteraunt somewhere. but it will not happen because the situation is too complicated and not because i have made it such. KC had already stated to me that he wanted a witness to corroborate what was said so that there is not any and i quote from KC and his PM to me "Back Biting".
but he suggested the witness thing after i had proposed that it be me and me alone to go and talk to him without the SD goon squad in the background or KC for that matter. Just reread my last post on this page and nowhere does it say that i would not go. it just says that i am not going to go there ALONE, not that i am NOT GOING TO GO PERIOD, just that i wont be alone when i do.

KC is trying to spin this in a different direction to make it seem like i am wanting to chicken out on his little invitation, but that is far from the truth. if you look at what i have posted and what HE has posted, HE has said "well i guess it isnt going to happen because you want to make things complicated""and i wanted to make this a little informal gathering. well then if that is the case Then KC would have PM'ed me about it rather than broadcasting it here on the forums for everyone to read.
Its all a bunch of BS, and i am going to call the bluff here.
Set up your meeting KC, Bring SIn the and a witness, ill bring myself and a witness and we will have tex-mex and tea and ask these questions that you think are so foolish.
TWS

[Flaca]

KC is trying to state that i am wanting to back out of things and make excuses. well i keep on saying that i am NOT BACKING OUT OF ANYTHING.

I think that KC now realizes that this little informal meeting is not going to happen because it is not in sin the's interests to answer mine or anyones questions regarding the lineage of SD. i am totally agreeing to go to a meeting that KC is supposedly going to set up and ask some questions, and being that i was a former loyal follower of sd i think KC feels that SIn the would be up for having some quiet informal meeting at a resteraunt somewhere. but it will not happen because the situation is too complicated and not because i have made it such. KC had already stated to me that he wanted a witness to corroborate what was said so that there is not any and i quote from KC and his PM to me "Back Biting".
but he suggested the witness thing after i had proposed that it be me and me alone to go and talk to him without the SD goon squad in the background or KC for that matter. Just reread my last post on this page and nowhere does it say that i would not go. it just says that i am not going to go there ALONE, not that i am NOT GOING TO GO PERIOD, just that i wont be alone when i do.

KC is trying to spin this in a different direction to make it seem like i am wanting to chicken out on his little invitation, but that is far from the truth. if you look at what i have posted and what HE has posted, HE has said "well i guess it isnt going to happen because you want to make things complicated""and i wanted to make this a little informal gathering. well then if that is the case Then KC would have PM'ed me about it rather than broadcasting it here on the forums for everyone to read.
Its all a bunch of BS, and i am going to call the bluff here.
Set up your meeting KC, Bring SIn the and a witness, ill bring myself and a witness and we will have tex-mex and tea and ask these questions that you think are so foolish.
TWS

Having the conversation during the course of the tourney might be more appropriate. I'm assuming you want to have an intelligent conversation with GMT, and don't plan to act like a prosecuting attorney, with demands for proof etc. Anyone can talk to him at the tourney (I've done so in the past).
KC does have more access than I do, but you seem so belligerent that were I him, I'd not wager my good standing over your demands. Tienes cojones, talk to him yourself. Bring your witness, we don't check SDA membership at the door.

[Flying-Monkey]

Why can't he bring one witness?

[The Willow Sword]

the last time i communicated with Joe shaefer he told me not to come to any of their tournaments or any fucntion they had. He said he wanted to forget me and that if i tried to slander him in any way that he would bring lawyers into it and sue me.
This came after i had done my research on su kong and wanted to have my name in the black belt registry removed on the sd website, i had also been fed up with being harassed by a couple of sd people at the time and that was also a deciding factor to not want to be associated with SD. so you see going to a tournament is not possible and i have stayed away and had no desire to go to a sd tournament. Please note that this all went down in 2003 and have stayed away from Sd since(with the exception of posting here about my views on things)

and i am not being belligerant and would not be a prosecuting attorney with Sin The' my questions have to do with su kong and the research that i did on the subject.

TWS

[Golden Tiger]

As for there being any danger to me with regards to you or any other sd goon wanting to take a crack at me because i am so disrespecting and offending their very honor and whatever BS they can think up, i could care less and i am not afraid of ANY of you. But i have since learned my lessons and will not be so naive .



I am not only a member of the SD goon squad, I am the president.:rolleyes:

TWS, my friend, you crack me up.

[Flaca]

SO where's the photos of Ie?

I've never seen any photos of Ie, I've seen prints of 2 different paintings of him.

[Radhnoti]

I'd ask if GM Sin knows of any other lineage that believes Su Kong Tai Djin existed. Then a follow up question would be "why not" or "who are they"?
I'd ask if perhaps Su Kong is a slight distortion of Si Gung and if so why SDers call him "Grandmaster Su".
TWS, I'd show him the pics of Li and ask if he thinks they could be the same guy...

[Learn]

You paraphrased well. And most of the individuals that study SD for a while will admit (some freely and some begrudgingly) that their understanding of Pa Kua or [insert system here] is not at the depth that it would be if they had studied that system exclusively (from a teacher that taught that system exclusively). The end result of SD, because of the way it is taught, is that each individual learns the pieces of a system that works for them and that amalgamation is what SD is to them. What Sin The is a Master in, according to his certificate is Golden Snake. As far as I know, he hasn't publically taught or demonstrated his master style.

(deleted for the reason the post addressed other posts)

P.S. forgive the typos and spelling. I'm on my first cup of coffee.

Sounds kind of like some variation of the JKD approach. However, JKD does not purport to teach its students all of the various component styles. Actually, it purports to teach no style. That aside, it seems to me there is some dishonesty in creating the impression in students and potential students, that by learning SD one will learn all of these various styles. The whole lineage/monkey guy thing is added fuel for the fire, but I don't much worry about those things as lineage and mythology is full of hyperbole throughout CMA. I do have a concern that SD can teach the various styles, from which a student picks the elements that appeal to him, when nobody in the system has genuinely mastered all of the systems. Assuming Sin The has, the instructors the student is going to train with on a regular basis has not. Your thoughts?

[Golden Tiger]

it seems to me there is some dishonesty in creating the impression in students and potential students, that by learning SD one will learn all of these various styles.


If I may (and will anyway)....

I am not sure what exact styles you are refering to but lets take Hsing Ie for example because I was taught it many years ago and have taught it for years. Now I will be the first to admit that I am not a Hsing Ie master and to my knowledge, noone in SD claims to be a master of XX style other than of SD. That said, after seeing other schools that teach it exclusively and what they offer, I feel that SD offers as much if not more. We teach the 5 roads, the linkage, the 12 animals, a 2 man set, the bo and the jian. I (cant speak to the rest) also teach the 5 elements, the cycles, the breathing and meditation, the chi flow and shattering hand. This is generally taught over a 2 year period. Also, I can incorporate things I have learned from the other systems which helps alot.

So, I am not sure how you call that false advertising or dishonesty. If a student wanted to master hsing Ie and Hsing Ie only, I would simply tell them to seek another school, done it quite a few times in fact.

So again, I happen to think SD has a lot to offer. It kept me busy for a long time and I still learn everytime I go through something.

[Flying-Monkey]

...in your opinion.....why is it not shaolin? why is it not kung fu?? why is it not traditional ? why is it not chinese ? are you chinese?

The forms don't seems to be done correctly. The history is questionable.

If it was tradition, your grand master changed it so much, it isn't anymore.

The clothes don't make the man, but gi don't help.

[You may think that gi and shaolin robes are the same, but they are not. They are similar. That is if you are looking at a real robe and not a gi dyed orange or gray (done at the factory) to sell it for more money.]

No. I am not Chinese.

Before you answer, this debate is going in circles.

[Radhnoti]

KC, I think that everything GM Sin is going to be able to put forth is just "what he was told". I wasn't expecting anything other than his point of view in answer to my questions.
Do you have any suggestions about questions that could be verifiable in the way you want? Usually you would verify historical accounts with another persons POV of history, which led to my question about the lack of other historical accounts of Su Kong. If GM Sin knows of other schools that make referrence to him it would be of interest. If GM Sin says, "Yes, Su Kong is just the way we spell Si Gung and I've just never felt like correcting everyone and telling them it's a title." I would be interested in that. And what if he saw the pictures of Li and was surprised, thinking it was the same person? Considering the fact that Hiang's website makes a big deal about the partial picture they have up (the one with the bear cut away) and how it's copyrighted and only they own it and so forth.
Look...Su Kong is (to my mind) the weakest point of SD history. To say it's wrong to ask GM Sin what his thoughts are about Su because it's all unverifiable would be a waste of an opportunity for him to offer something that might clear things up.
That's my opinion.

[tattooedmonk]

The forms don't seems to be done correctly. The history is questionable.

If it was tradition, your grand master changed it so much, it isn't anymore.

The clothes don't make the man, but gi don't help.

[You may think that gi and shaolin robes are the same, but they are not. They are similar. That is if you are looking at a real robe and not a gi dyed orange or gray (done at the factory) to sell it for more money.]

No. I am not Chinese.

Before you answer, this debate is going in circles.This does not answer the questions completely...

..you still have yet to answer why it is not Shaolin , kung fu, or traditional .

The word tradition comes from the latin word traditio meaning to "pass down" or "to hand over".

...this is the way that the art has been passed down or handed over from master to student for at least three generations in Shaolin Do

...it is traditional .....however not the tradition that you are familiar with..

All this bullsh*t about the superficial aspects is rediculous and has nothing to do with whether it is shaolin or kung fu

you obviously do not know what shaolin or kung fu is

you are in Japan and you are not Chinese ...are you sure you are not teaching karate???

[The Willow Sword]

I am not sure what exact styles you are refering to but lets take Hsing Ie for example because I was taught it many years ago and have taught it for years. Now I will be the first to admit that I am not a Hsing Ie master and to my knowledge, noone in SD claims to be a master of XX style other than of SD. That said, after seeing other schools that teach it exclusively and what they offer, I feel that SD offers as much if not more. We teach the 5 roads, the linkage, the 12 animals, a 2 man set, the bo and the jian. I (cant speak to the rest) also teach the 5 elements, the cycles, the breathing and meditation, the chi flow and shattering hand. This is generally taught over a 2 year period. Also, I can incorporate things I have learned from the other systems which helps alot.

So, I am not sure how you call that false advertising or dishonesty. If a student wanted to master hsing Ie and Hsing Ie only, I would simply tell them to seek another school, done it quite a few times in fact.

Well if SD has so much more to offer in the way of learning these systems as you have stated then why tell students to go elsewhere when they wish to focus and master a particular system that YOU state that you have so much more to offer them? That doesnt make sense. actually it does make sense when you conclude that all you guys do is teach out a form or a system with out the proper knowledge and mastery of said system and expect everyone to figure it out on their own. so in effect you guys are teaching out hsing i,for example, you are teaching out all these aspects of hsing i, THEN when a student comes up to you and says " you know id like to focus my training on hsing yi and be a master of that system, then YOU tell them " sorry kid go some other school and master it"?

what it tells me is that NONE of you have any sort of mastery of the systems you teach. sure you may have all this knowledge and cliam that you are a sort of college library of martial systems, but after what you just posted above it just seems like all you teach out is the superficial. OHHHH but there is NOTHING superficial about SD correct?:rolleyes: yeah right Golden tiger.

TWS

[Royal Dragon]

All this bullsh*t about the superficial aspects is rediculous and has nothing to do with whether it is shaolin or kung fu

Reply]
I have seen footage of the Shaolin Do Mantis form on the net before. It bears NO resemblance to authentic Mantis of any lineagage at all. They have very Japanese style body mechanics, and don't conform to anything Shaolin at all. There were no recognized Mantis techniques in the set I saw, the flow and style of movement common to ALL mantis styles was not present in the least little bit. The ONLY thing I saw, was a mantis hand posture that looked like it had been tacked onto a made up karate style Kata.

The Foot work was not of Mantis, NOR Monkey (Mantis is a blend of Monkey, Tai tzu and a few others).

To say the SD mantis set is Shaolin mantis wold be like taking a Ballet, and trying to pass it off as "Hip Hop" The two musical/dance genra's are so vastly different, it's clear that you cannot confuse them. The same goes for the SD Mantis form, VS the real authentic Shaolin Mantis form that SD is fraudulantly trying to pass it self off to be.

It' no different than these knobs that teach modern Yang Tai Chi sets, and try to pass them off as some 1000 year old long fist form when it is CLEARLY not.

Sure, you can pass a Cubic Zerconia off as the real thing to the generla public, but a professional Jewleler is going to know in a blink it's not a Diamond.

You SD gys are on here arguing with PROFESSIONAL Jewlers, and then not understanding why you can't fool any of us into believing your Cubic Z is the real thing.

[Golden Tiger]

I said:


If a student wanted to master hsing Ie and Hsing Ie only, I would simply tell them to seek another school, done it quite a few times in fact.

TWS replied:


when a student comes up to you and says " you know id like to focus my training on hsing yi and be a master of that system, then YOU tell them " sorry kid go some other school and master it"?


Please try to read all the words next time, not just small easy ones.


if SD has so much more to offer in the way of learning these systems as you have stated then why tell students to go elsewhere when they wish to focus and master a particular system that YOU state that you have so much more to offer them? That doesnt make sense.

Because in the early stages, SD is not set up that way. You know that silly boy. And sorry to say, I doubt very seriously that the structure will be changed just because of one bitter ex=student. Lots and lots like the way we do things, you didn't. Learn to live with that fact.

And willow, if there seems to be something wrong with SD and what they teach, why not stop by and see if your way is better, seeing that you have been away from SD for a while now? Surely, your skills have improved beyond what anyone practicing such a fake art could match. Video tape your triumphet return and post it for the world to see. Heck, i would buy a copy.



You SD gys are on here arguing with PROFESSIONAL Jewlers

Dude, I remember seeing the photos posted on your site. Professional jewels perhaps.

[Flaca]

All this bullsh*t about the superficial aspects is rediculous and has nothing to do with whether it is shaolin or kung fu

Reply]
I have seen footage of the Shaolin Do Mantis form on the net before. It bears NO resemblance to authentic Mantis of any lineagage at all.

"The Shaolin Do Mantis form..."??? I've been taught 4 mantis forms, and have merely scratched the surface (I decided to focus my attention elsewhere). Seeing one mantis form on the net (or even more than one) is insufficient basis for such broad conclusions about SD's mantis, much less what is taught at SD.



Well if SD has so much more to offer in the way of learning these systems as you have stated then why tell students to go elsewhere when they wish to focus and master a particular system that YOU state that you have so much more to offer them? That doesnt make sense. actually it does make sense when you conclude that all you guys do is teach out a form or a system with out the proper knowledge and mastery of said system and expect everyone to figure it out on their own. so in effect you guys are teaching out hsing i,for example, you are teaching out all these aspects of hsing i, THEN when a student comes up to you and says " you know id like to focus my training on hsing yi and be a master of that system, then YOU tell them " sorry kid go some other school and master it"?

what it tells me is that NONE of you have any sort of mastery of the systems you teach. sure you may have all this knowledge and cliam that you are a sort of college library of martial systems, but after what you just posted above it just seems like all you teach out is the superficial. OHHHH but there is NOTHING superficial about SD correct?:rolleyes: yeah right Golden tiger.

TWS

You've twisted GT's words. He said if a student wanted to master Hsing I ONLY, that another school may be more appropriate. Shaolin Do has a very extensive curriculum, and you don't even get to hsing I for years. SD can only give the tools for learning. "Mastery comes from within" and all that. Do you doubt that the masters have mastered some of the systems?

[The Willow Sword]

SO okay if a student joins the sd school and goes through the curriculum and has this broad array of styles and systems that he/she is learning, and gets to that point where they are learning hsing i from you, that student says " you know i really like hsing i and i want to learn more of that and specialize in that? you mean to tell me that you are going to tell that student to go elsewhere to master it? comeone guys i am not twisting peoples words you are basically saying that you do not have any sort of mastery program there for students who get to a certain level in your school and want to specialize.

dont give me this mastery is within stuff okay, we all know the proverbial wisdom here. we have all eaten at enough chinese resteraunts and had tons of fortune cookies to all be proverbial masters. i am talking about actually LEARNING a SYSTEM of Chinese martial arts that YOU GUYS claim to teach in your curriculum. instead so much material is taught out and one moves quickly through the material, then there are the seminars for whatever new special secret form or system that everyone jumps on the bandwagon to learn, yet you all have to still adhere to the curriculum that is set out to attain what you guys call "MASTER" at 5th degree black belt, and what is it that distinction brings with it? is it mastery in any system that is taught? no it is a designation stating that one has gone through a whole slew of forms and systems but no real specialization in those forms or systems. its all a jumbled mess in my opinion. and what about Eric Smith who is the "internal specialist" in the school or bob green who is the "monkey specialist" or whomever else in the senior masters category who have "specialized" in something?
if you claim to teach out a system a WHOLE system like Hsing i is or a WHOLE system like Bagua is ,,OR Tai chi,, then be prepared to have a FOCUS on those systems for those students who are wanting to learn those.

you know in the days when i was a loyalist to this school my idea had been to intially learn the bagua and the tai chi and hsing i and "specialize" in that and teach that, since these are the 3 internals that have a relationship to one another, i figured that this would be a lifetime of material and would take a while to master and become proficient enough to actually teach it to others as well as be formidable in the systems. It is actually what attracted me to SD in the very beginning, that they taught out these systems and that is what i wanted to learn. but i was told that i had to go through the curriculum to get to those that were taught out at higher levels in SD. so i bought into it and actually, seminars were held that taught out bagu and hsing i as well as tai chi seperate from the curriculum BEFORE i got my 1st degree black belt. by the time i tested for 2nd degree i already had most of the material for second degree to test for 3rd, because of all the extra seminars i took.

so you guys mean to tell me that with all these systems that you have and that you teach out that you have NO-ONE who could specialize and teach out the sd versions of these systems to people who want to learn it souley? i mean most of your schools have a tai chi program seperate from the regular sd curriculum, so whay not with bagua and hsing i? or even the mantis that you claim to have everything on?

TWS

[Judge Pen]

Sounds kind of like some variation of the JKD approach. However, JKD does not purport to teach its students all of the various component styles. Actually, it purports to teach no style. That aside, it seems to me there is some dishonesty in creating the impression in students and potential students, that by learning SD one will learn all of these various styles. The whole lineage/monkey guy thing is added fuel for the fire, but I don't much worry about those things as lineage and mythology is full of hyperbole throughout CMA. I do have a concern that SD can teach the various styles, from which a student picks the elements that appeal to him, when nobody in the system has genuinely mastered all of the systems. Assuming Sin The has, the instructors the student is going to train with on a regular basis has not. Your thoughts?

I think it depends on the instructor. There are some instructors that really work had at understanding the differences in principle from the styles that SD purports, but to others its just another form, but this time we hit with a tiger claw. Unfortunately, the bigger SD gets the more removed the average students get to a teacher that really works had at making mantis feel like mantis etc. That's one of SD's problems in my opinion.

Having said that, I wouldn't consider any master in SD a master of any one system taught in SD. To do that, one must choose to study that system exclusively, and I don't see that being done. Of course, I don't know how the teaching works after 5th degree.

[Royal Dragon]

"The Shaolin Do Mantis form..."??? I've been taught 4 mantis forms, and have merely scratched the surface (I decided to focus my attention elsewhere). Seeing one mantis form on the net (or even more than one) is insufficient basis for such broad conclusions about SD's mantis, much less what is taught at SD.

It's plenty sufficient. If the form is being passed off as mantis, but structurally, and principally it's nothing even close, IT'S NOT MANTIS!!!! All you need to do is see the form to know "without a doubt" it's not what it's being sold as.....

Thearfore, it's a LIE to call it mantis!!!

This is not rocket science, it's pretty simple really. If you call a form a "Mantis" form, especially if you claim it's a Shaolin Mantis form, and it's not, then you are a lieing Fraud...which SD apparently is...it's even dumb enough to post the proof on the net for all to see.

I don't remember having pictures of myself on my site when I had it...are you sure you looked at "My" site? I only had pics of Shaolin Temple and mundane stuff like that.

[kungfujunky]

the school has been set up with this curriculum for ages.

it is how we teach it out.

ask your teacher to change what he does and see what he says

you want to master tai chi? put in the effort and you will.

you want to master hsing yi? put in the effort and you will

but dont ask an entire system to change the way it has dont things from the beginning because you think it should.

sd is set up the way it is set up. we dont hide that when you sign up. we dont force you to train for 4 years and make a challenge you cant win. and we wont hold your hand why you are crying from your defeat.

tws please show us your immense growth since leaving sd. since at second black you had your butt handed to you and your manner and attitude caused your teacher to shun you (which is no fault but yours btw)

if your new system is so much better for your growth let us prove that.

i am a first black but i will gladly pad up and go a round or 2 with you. im always up for a friendly spar and texas isnt to far from me.

i like what sd does. it gives you many many building blocks on your way to mastery. it teaches you many different styles and systems so that you can use all the pieces that build on each other and become an extremely efficient fighter.

give me a hsing yi master that knows nothing else and i will beat hgim with crane or tai chi or pa kua.

if you specialize to much you become vulnerable to that systems weak points.

in sd you learn multiple styles so you can adjust for weaknesses in certain things and become that much harder to take down.

i agree with others that you need to talk with master joe and get this thing settled on the inside or you will never get out from under the cloud of resentment you carry.

[Royal Dragon]

Unfortunately, the bigger SD gets the more removed the average students get to a teacher that really works had at making mantis feel like mantis etc. That's one of SD's problems in my opinion.

Reply]
The SD Mantis form I saw was not even choreagraphed to even remotely resemble a mantis set. Even a bad mantis beginner, can do an authentic set well enough to show that it is Mantis to another Mantis player.

The SD set did not have Mantis footwork, or hand work, the body structure and Mantis flow of movement. It is not even in the choreography. No matter how good an SD player does that set, it is not, and can never be Shaolin Mantis, or any other kind of Mantis for that matter. It's some sort of Japanese kata with a few mantis hand positions tacked on to KARATE style techniques, done in a Karate styleised Kata...calling it mantis is a lie, and highly fraudulant.

Agian, you guys come on a forum FULL of Shaolin and Chinese Kung Fu experts...and you wonder why no one buys the BS....