Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Royal Dragon]

give me a hsing yi master that knows nothing else and i will beat hgim with crane or tai chi or pa kua.

Reply]
Wrong, becasue one, you don't have the proper fundementals for either, and two, your training is too scattred to even begin to compete against a specialist in Hsing Yi. The EXPERT in a few things, who is an EXPERT at applying his methods, will beat the hobbist who has no high level training in any one system, every time.

It's not how much you know, but how WELL you know it, and the Hsing Yi master knows his art VERY, VERY well...and you well...you have a peice of this, a smattering of that...nothing coheisive...how can you expect to win?

[Flaca]

"The Shaolin Do Mantis form..."??? I've been taught 4 mantis forms, and have merely scratched the surface (I decided to focus my attention elsewhere). Seeing one mantis form on the net (or even more than one) is insufficient basis for such broad conclusions about SD's mantis, much less what is taught at SD.

It's plenty sufficient. If the form is being passed off as mantis, but structurally, and principally it's nothing even close, IT'S NOT MANTIS!!!! All you need to do is see the form to know "without a doubt" it's not what it's being sold as.....

Thearfore, it's a LIE to call it mantis!!!

This is not rocket science, it's pretty simple really. If you call a form a "Mantis" form, especially if you claim it's a Shaolin Mantis form, and it's not, then you are a lieing Fraud...which SD apparently is...it's even dumb enough to post the proof on the net for all to see.

I don't remember having pictures of myself on my site when I had it...are you sure you looked at "My" site? I only had pics of Shaolin Temple and mundane stuff like that.

I stand by my first post. Passing judgment on SD based on seeing one 'net' video of one mantis form done by persons unknown is off base. Watch KC do a mantis form some time. He won't claim to be a 'master' of mantis because of his heretoforth unknown humility... Now if you watched ME do a mantis form, you'd think I was swatting flies. :rolleyes:

GT mentions seeing your 'site', I've no clue what either of you refer to.

[Royal Dragon]

The mantis form is just one example. There have been many SD forms on the net in the past. It's the same story with all of the ones I have seen.

The only exception was a Yang style Taiji set i saw posted once. It was done all wrong, but it was one of the standard Yang sets...

[Royal Dragon]

This is one of Mantis's core forms.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbVF8XybD6c

Can you post a link to Shaolin Do's performance of something similar in flavor at least?

[Golden Tiger]

I don't remember having pictures of myself on my site when I had it...are you sure you looked at "My" site? I only had pics of Shaolin Temple and mundane stuff like that.


I might have been mistaken on that but your icon looks exactly like a person that had a site that was rather funny to look at. I could have sworn it was you. Anyway, retract the previous statement.

[Royal Dragon]

That could not have been me, I didn't even take that picture untill last Christmass. My site has been down since the Hurricanes destroyed New Orleans (I think the Server was there)

That pic has never been on my website.

[Royal Dragon]

Another North mantis set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5rm9D1l1Uo

This perticular set has been recognised by Tai Tzu master's as being a Tai Tzu set as well. If you know your history, you know that Tai Tzu Chang Chuan was a major influance on North Mantis...which leads me to believe this is a very old set and may very well go back to the very beginning of the mantis style.

I also showed this to a Hong Chuan payer who recognised it as some sort of Hong Chuan. Again, his branch of Hong Chuan descended from Tai tzu Chang Chuan as well, and is not related to Mantis. This leads me to believe that this perticular form is a VERY Old, and authentic set. I can see both Mantis, and Tai Tzu actions in this form.

When I see SD's mantis, I see a hatchet job on a Kata.....it's not any sort of Mantis. Same goes for any SD form I have ever seen.

[Royal Dragon]

The four forms below are some of the core traditonal forms of Shaolin, and really convey the flavor, and form of authentic Shaolin Chuan. ALL sets are about 1000 years old.

The first is Xiao Hong Chuan. It's different, and a bit longer than mine, but still shows Shaolin very well.

The second is the core form from my style. Also 1000+ years old (960 AD), it was the heart of Shaolin Long Fist for hundreds, and hundreds of years. This performance has a tad bit of Whu Shu flash, but it is well done, and a good rep of authentic Shaolin none the less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVJ5q5n8ii0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ap1Ee9ftPY&NR

The next two sets are also core and ancient Shaolin forms called Da Hong Chuan and Pao Chui (Cannon Fist). Any school claiming to be the "Original" Shaolin surely must have these core, and ancient sets in it's curriculem, as these set ARE the core of authentic Shaolin teachings going back 1000+ years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Nqttylj1Q&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivbC4eKqz7o&mode=related&search=

Does Shaolin Do teach these forms? It shold if it is really what it claims to be (The original Shaolin)

[kungfujunky]

where is the documentation proving those 4 forms are indeed what you say?

[Royal Dragon]

Ahhhh everyone who knows Authentic Shaolin, fromm ANY authentic branch either knows of these forms, or actually knows them out right. My specialty is the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, but I also know the Xaio Hong Chuan, and I obviously know of the other's to know to post clips of them.

The fatc that you question what the rest of us (and there are a LOT of us) already know shows you know nothing of authentic Shaolin. Thearfore your SD school is one big, fat lie.

Again, you are trying to pass Cubic Z's off to professional jewler's here. You are doing so by trying to question the authenticity of real Diamonds, when all you hold is a handfull of glass......It aint gonna work here. You need to find undeucated and uninformed neophytes (ie. those who don't know any better) to succeed.

[kungfujunky]

so there is no concrete proof? aside from the fact that all those who "know" authentic shaolin say so?

so how is that different from sd?

and again i say who can possibly know what is authentic shao lin? there were no clips of monks doing shaolin 1000 years ago. there are no documents. there is only what students are told by their masters.

so what makes you right and us wrong? whos "proof" is more real?

brendan lai, a highly respected mantis master in his day used to spend long hours with my masters and gmt when they were in his town. is his mantis not real? is his respect for my teachers not real?

what makes your dogmatic belief any different than ours?

because more people buy the stories you are told? because more schools use those stories?

wouldnt it have been easier for gmt to use the five elders instead of a controversial lineage? wouldnt it have been easier to claim the same roots as more than half of the other "true" shaolin schools out there?

you claim to be a master. good for you. but in the end i would take any 3rd black in sd over you in a hand to hand fight.

your claims are no more real than ours. because there is no real solid proof. for either side.

the forms you showed have many moves similar to our mantis sets. so what. that still proves nothing.

what about the fight science clip? do you have an answer for that? the fact that our bald faced lie of kung fu is present in a wu shu champions set.





the cold hard fact in this matter is simple.

there is no proof either way. zero. there is no proof that what royal d studies is real. there is no proof sd is real.

there is no proof.

BUT

does it work? yes it does. does rd's stuff work. i will assume so for the sake of argument.

so they are both real.

i know that gmt has the actual shaolin temple books (not sure if books is the proper term here...documents i guess) that list all the forms systems styles history of the temples etc.

but i dont see those seeing the light of day anytime soon for the simple fact that they are way to valuable.

that is the proof. but gmt doesnt do what others want him to. he could care less. he is teaching the art that was taught to him. he isnt bending to popular belief about shaolin.

if he is such a liar then why not just take the accepted history? wouldnt that be easier?

:rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

A Cubic Zerconia still sparkles all purddy like, don't it!!

[Royal Dragon]

Ahh Dude, this is Frik'n BUNG BO one of the ORIGINAL Mantis forms. You just CAN'T get more real than this set!

If your "Mantis" forms don't really have this flavor, even if you "Think" they are more Mantisy, then they are not Shaolin/North Mantis. What you claim them to be is a lie.

Anyone can make up a form that dances like a mantid bug, but is it real shaolin or authentic northern Preying mantis...Ha, hardly!!

Here is it again for your viewing pleasure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbVF8XybD6c


Anyone for A Cubic z? kwaichang has 900 of them for sale!!

[The Willow Sword]

tws please show us your immense growth since leaving sd. since at second black you had your butt handed to you and your manner and attitude caused your teacher to shun you (which is no fault but yours btw)

it was my fault for trusting that i would have some representation with me when i went to go to that challenge(that was reluctantly but initially GIVEN to me) but then at the last minute it was taken away and i had to go there feeling like i didnt have the backing of a school that i spent so much time and dedication and loyalty towards. it showed a lack of integrity and HONOR on joes part for withdrawing his support and not sending along someone with me to back me up if things really got out of hand(which at the time the person he wanted to go with me is now nolonger at the school because he decided to have a fling with an underage teen)

my "ATTITUDE" at the time reflected one of standing up for something that so many had put down. I dont blame joe or the school for losing that challenge match with reemul, but my heart wasnt in that fight because of the rug being pulled out from under me by those i trusted and followed(but i still maintain today that if i had support and everything went like it was going to i still would have lost, reemul just had more skill than i). you all seem to think that i blame the heart of the school for me losing. so what if i lost, and i did lose, but you know i gained a ton of respect from people at eastwind including reemul and from many here on this forum for having the courage to go to that challenge alone. i could have backed out when i was told i wouldnt be supported in the match, i could have wimped out and made a fool of myself and be thought of as a coward. but i didnt. yes kungfujunky i do blame myself for losing and putting my trust in something that wasnt worth my trust to begin with.

as for your other comments about the curriculum, i find it deplorable that a system such as sd would be so blasee' about teaching out systems like hsing i and pakua in a method and manner that doesnt relfect on actually learning the system. so you learn the form, so what? you then put it aside and then go on to something else as if you just ate a meal and cr@pped it out a day later and then gone to something else.


it teaches you many different styles and systems so that you can use all the pieces that build on each other and become an extremely efficient fighter.

give me a hsing yi master that knows nothing else and i will beat hgim with crane or tai chi or pa kua.

this is just naive right here kfjunky. if you went up against a hsing i master with your hodge podge of whatever you would get YOUR ass handed to you. Its quite something to stick to a particular style or system and become so proficient at it that you dont even think about what you are going to use to deal with someone, you just deal with them. while you are thinking "hmm i think ill use some mantis and then go in to a crane stance and then...BLAMO!!! you just got your @ss kicked. im not saying that i am a master of hsing i at all i still have a ways to go yet, but i will put my money down on the specialist anyday against your hodge podge. hell even MMA'ists utilize some specifics in what they do on the ground, its pretty universal, i would also put my money on them against your hodge podge of forms anyday as well.

look the whole point of this is that your school teaches so much material that you have no idea how to even master or really learn what you have been taught. i see the forms taught there because i have learned them up to 2nd degree black and then when it is time to spar or fight in a tournament, ya go right in to a boxing stance and it turns into point sparring krotty, where is all the crane, mantis ,tiger there?

the only thing that i see at sd that has remote solidity is the hsing i that is taught there and it shows in judge pens fighting techniques against the guys he was sparring in those vids. i saw the hsing i right off the bat. i saw no crane no tiger no mantis no golden whatever secret form as well.

Oh and THANKYOU RD for the vids and the bung bo vid, it is nice to see that form again, i learned my bung bo mantis form before sd thankfully.

done writing for now,,,TWS

[The Xia]

Posters on this thread present all manner of facts, opinions, and questions relating to the topic at hand. Insulting someone because you do not like what that person says about the topic will not accomplish anything but making yourself look bad. So how's about we have a civilized discussion and leave out the name calling.

[Royal Dragon]

You are a Joke man all I meant to say was I was not impressed by the practitoner or the form presented SD Bung Bo is much more "interesting and looks even more " Mantisy". That one was OK though for a beginner. KC

Reply]
You were not impressed, because you are undeucated and don't know what to look for, because SD is a big Lie.

[Flying-Monkey]

This does not answer the questions completely...

..you still have yet to answer why it is not Shaolin , kung fu, or traditional .

The word tradition comes from the latin word traditio meaning to "pass down" or "to hand over".

...this is the way that the art has been passed down or handed over from master to student for at least three generations in Shaolin Do

...it is traditional .....however not the tradition that you are familiar with..

All this bullsh*t about the superficial aspects is rediculous and has nothing to do with whether it is shaolin or kung fu

you obviously do not know what shaolin or kung fu is

you are in Japan and you are not Chinese ...are you sure you are not teaching karate???

It has a tradition, but the tradition is not Shaolin's tradition. SD men do not do keep with REAL shaolin when it comes to forms and technique.

How a person does techniques is not superficial. The Philosophy is only half of the equation.

It is not shaolin because the SD forms that I have seem, are not perform in the way that is generally done in kung fu. I such lack of understanding in some cases that it made me cringe. It isn't a difference in flavor, it is just poorly done.

Do you really think I know nothing about Kung fu? My Sigung agrees with me. He has over 60 years of experience in kung fu. My sifu has close to 30 years of experience and his agrees. I spoke to other sifu with a lot of experience and they agree.

Now, only Chinese know about Shaolin and kung fu? Is your GM Korean and he learned in Indonesia?

I teach karate? Are you saying that TSPK is karate? You asked a question, but I understand the semantics of it. Be careful! This is a friendly warning. Show a video to any master of your GM and my sigung doing forms and techniques and see which they think REAL kung fu.

On you GM website, it has shaolin karate

If forms and techniques are not a big part of what a style is, then what is?

[Flaca]

You are a Joke man all I meant to say was I was not impressed by the practitoner or the form presented SD Bung Bo is much more "interesting and looks even more " Mantisy". That one was OK though for a beginner. KC

Reply]
You were not impressed, because you are undeucated and don't know what to look for, because SD is a big Lie.

I thought the video affirmed SD's mantis. It looked very similar to a mantis form I learned a couple years ago.
Speaking of 'undeucated'.... thanks for the irony.

[Royal Dragon]

Very similar, and correct are two different things though.

Like I have been saying, to the uneducated, a Cubic Zerconia "Looks" very similar to a real Diamond, but it's much cheaper for a reason, that being that it's not a real Diamond....SD is the same thing as the Cubic Zerconia.

[BentMonk]

RD - I appreciate the passion of your posts, the SD folks are just as passionate. There's no need to mock that. We all believe that what we're studying is the best or we wouldn't study there. I am curious to know why you consider yourself a "professional jeweler". I mean no disrespect. You post with such an authoritative tone to your posts. Do you consider yourself to be a TCMA master?

TTM - I know you're passionate about your POV, but you're no helping the greater good by tossing around insults. That just lends credibility to the other side of the argument.

The Xia - I feel where you're coming from, but it would inspire a lot more open dialogue, and less BS if you'd be willing to share your background. It may not be directly relevant to the topic at hand, but would go a long way toward establishing rather or not you even have the required knowledge to debate TCMA at all, or are just a well spoken troll.

TWS - I am sorry that you had such a negative experience with SD. However, this whole thing with you, Master Joe, and KC is bewildering. To say that anyone or anything other than yourself is responsible for you losing that challenge is not only wrong, it's a cop out. You got yourself into that mess, why should anyone other than you have gotten you out of it? So you got your butt kicked, train harder, quit playing the blame game, and move on. No master is obligated to put their reputation, and school on the line because one of their students decides to fight a challenge match. What makes you so special that Master Joe should risk not only his reputation and his school, but face the legal ramifications of a challenge as well? Your confidence should not be dependent upon the support of someone else. As to this Q & A with GM Sin, I would like to see Gene or some other neutral party handle that. That's the only way for it to be objective and without bias from either side of this debate.

This thread as a whole is an immortal horse that has been beaten beyond recognition. This debate will never be settled to the satisfaction of either side. Those of us that post on it do so out of a love for debate and not much else. I respect anyone who studies any art with devotion and effort, and expect the same in return. I do not presume to know more than someone else about Ma, and do not bash other styles. I expect the same in return. We would all benefit if we could quit bashing and insulting each other, and start learning from each other. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen though. :D SD has been good to me and many others. At the end of my day that's all I need. This debate is just a pleasant diversion that IMO many take far too seriously. Peace, Love, and Happy Training to ALL. :D

[Flaca]

Very similar, and correct are two different things though.

Like I have been saying, to the uneducated, a Cubic Zerconia "Looks" very similar to a real Diamond, but it's much cheaper for a reason, that being that it's not a real Diamond....SD is the same thing as the Cubic Zerconia.

They are indeed two different things, and I am not enough of an expert to say 'correct'. I can only say similar.
Speaking of uneducated, are you sufficiently 'educated' about SD to pass such harsh judgment? I doubt it.
I'm with Bentmonk. He epitomizes the SD spirit, better than me. I'm spiteful and mean...
;)

[Royal Dragon]

No, I am not a Master, but I have been around Shaolin Kung Fu in one form or another for a good 16-17 years now. I have never seen anything from SD that looks remotely like Shaolin Chuan.

It is ot the "Original" Shaolin as claimed...infact it is not even Shaolin. You can see easily by looking at the various forms that pop up on the net from time to time.

Also, I am not a Jewler, but *Like* a jewler knows the difference between a Cubic Zerconia and a Diamond, I know Shaolin when I see it, and when I don't. SD is not Shaolin.

Now, I ma a bit curious to the comment that the Bung Bo vid I posted reminds someone of an SD form. I would love to see that form just so I can tell if it really is some version of Bung Bo or not, and how close it is to being corretc if it is. Is it just the choreography? or are the principals there too?

The Vid I posted is pretty much as close as you are going to get to being authentically correct. It can be used as a benchmark to gauge the performance, and authenticity of the SD set....if something similar actually exists in SD.

Even if it does though, the Mantis set I saw before is some sort of Kata that has been hacked to bits with a mantis hand posture added for good looks...it's NOT mantis in the least little bit....it's not even Karate anymore, but that is what it is closest too at this point.

SD *May* have a grain of truth in it here and there, It's just no one has ever seen it as of yet. Bung Bo is an easy set to get, there are books, videos, and even clips on the net of it. But to get it right, requires a Mantis teacher, with an authentic background. From what I have seen of SD, nothing there is done properly, so it is still just a Cubic Zerconia compared to the Diamond it is passing it self off as.

[Judge Pen]

Now, I ma a bit curious to the comment that the Bung Bo vid I posted reminds someone of an SD form. I would love to see that form just so I can tell if it really is some version of Bung Bo or not, and how close it is to being corretc if it is. Is it just the choreography? or are the principals there too?

I'm sure there could be a legitimate debate between different mantis schools whether or not a particular performance of Bung Bo is legitimate when compared to theirs, but I would wager that SD's version is closer than many here would suspect or even admit (if they saw it). I don't know a lot of SD's mantis. I did take a seminar with Three Harmonies for white ape steals the peach a couple of years ago and then I learned that SD taught a version of that form too. I compared them and thought they were very similar. Especially considering that I had seen 4 or 5 different versions of this same form in other mantis schools' websites.

[Radhnoti]

RD - "Agian, you guys come on a forum FULL of Shaolin and Chinese Kung Fu experts..."

I'd point out that most of these threads about SD HAVEN'T been started by SD students. You're blaming students for defending their preferred system RD. It's been a LONG time since any SD students came to this site bragging about SD's history and so forth...and in almost every instance those folks have been new students.

Green Cloud said something on another SD thread that I agree with:
"From a traditionalist point of view, Shaolin Do is not a traditional Kung Fu system.
Can you call Shaolin Do a CMA system sure."

I don't think any SDer is saying "my martial art that is called shaolin-do is just like all the other "traditional" chinese shaolin arts out there". Everyone knows SD is it's own thing. Again, I partially agree with GC, "It is my professional opinion that Shaolin Do is not a traditional Kung Fu system. After checking out some videos it loosely resembles Indonesian type of MA mixed in with Karate and Jiu jitsu." (I'm not sure I'd include Jiu jitsu...unless he saw footage of some of the self defense stuff, usually attributed to "chin na" on SD stuff I've seen.)

GC has said, in effect, that Shaolin-do originated in China then went to Indonesia and is different than most of what is practiced as "kung-fu" now. I honestly don't think any SDer is arguing those facts.

[Judge Pen]

BM, I saw you performance at the demonstration! You always impress me man! Keep it up.

[The Willow Sword]

TWS - I am sorry that you had such a negative experience with SD. However, this whole thing with you, Master Joe, and KC is bewildering. To say that anyone or anything other than yourself is responsible for you losing that challenge is not only wrong, it's a cop out. You got yourself into that mess, why should anyone other than you have gotten you out of it? So you got your butt kicked, train harder, quit playing the blame game, and move on. No master is obligated to put their reputation, and school on the line because one of their students decides to fight a challenge match. What makes you so special that Master Joe should risk not only his reputation and his school, but face the legal ramifications of a challenge as well? Your confidence should not be dependent upon the support of someone else.

Bent monk i am going to repost what i stated earlier so you can get your reading comprehension skills working again. here it is

my "ATTITUDE" at the time reflected one of standing up for something that so many had put down. I dont blame joe or the school for losing that challenge match with reemul, but my heart wasnt in that fight because of the rug being pulled out from under me by those i trusted and followed(but i still maintain today that if i had support and everything went like it was going to i still would have lost, reemul just had more skill than i). you all seem to think that i blame the heart of the school for me losing. so what if i lost, and i did lose, but you know i gained a ton of respect from people at eastwind including reemul and from many here on this forum for having the courage to go to that challenge alone. i could have backed out when i was told i wouldnt be supported in the match, i could have wimped out and made a fool of myself and be thought of as a coward. but i didnt

now would you people please stop inferring the exact opposite of what i have been stating? clear the crud from your eyes drink some coffee or take some ginko biloba and get the reading fundamentals back to the forefront of your brains.
im very TIRED of having to repeat and reiderate myself for those who dont know how to read and comprehend a fuking statement that i make. :rolleyes:

TWS

[Royal Dragon]

RD - "Agian, you guys come on a forum FULL of Shaolin and Chinese Kung Fu experts..."

I'd point out that most of these threads about SD HAVEN'T been started by SD students. You're blaming students for defending their preferred system RD. It's been a LONG time since any SD students came to this site bragging about SD's history and so forth...and in almost every instance those folks have been new students.

Reply]
Hmm, Ok, I stand corrected.

Why do newbies come here and brag about SD's history? Maybe it should not be taught if it's clearly not true?



It is my professional opinion that Shaolin Do is not a traditional Kung Fu system. After checking out some videos it loosely resembles Indonesian type of MA mixed in with Karate and Jiu jitsu."

Reply]
My experiance with Indo systems is minor, however I have seen enough to say the above comment may very well be correct. It is also the opinion of someone I do respect and has the experiance to judge.

[BentMonk]

BM, I saw you performance at the demonstration! You always impress me man! Keep it up.

Thanks. I'm always happy if I don't fall on my a$$. I got DQ'd for head contact in sparring. Oops. :D

[Royal Dragon]

Not karate, the Indo stuff.

[BentMonk]

Bent monk i am going to repost what i stated earlier so you can get your reading comprehension skills working again. here it is

my "ATTITUDE" at the time reflected one of standing up for something that so many had put down. I dont blame joe or the school for losing that challenge match with reemul, but my heart wasnt in that fight because of the rug being pulled out from under me by those i trusted and followed(but i still maintain today that if i had support and everything went like it was going to i still would have lost, reemul just had more skill than i). you all seem to think that i blame the heart of the school for me losing. so what if i lost, and i did lose, but you know i gained a ton of respect from people at eastwind including reemul and from many here on this forum for having the courage to go to that challenge alone. i could have backed out when i was told i wouldnt be supported in the match, i could have wimped out and made a fool of myself and be thought of as a coward. but i didnt

now would you people please stop inferring the exact opposite of what i have been stating? clear the crud from your eyes drink some coffee or take some ginko biloba and get the reading fundamentals back to the forefront of your brains.
im very TIRED of having to repeat and reiderate myself for those who dont know how to read and comprehend a fuking statement that i make. :rolleyes:

TWS

You're whole demeanor does nothing but validate my comments. If it was your attitude at the time, and not the way you feel now, why continue to bring it up? Regardless of what you're tired of, why respond with such voracity and profanity? Did I strike a nerve or what? I'm happy you gained respect, learned a lesson, or whatever, but your attitude as a whole still suggests that you haven't gotten over your feelings of betrayal, however unfounded they may be. There is nothing wrong with my comprehension skills. I am simply stating my perspective based on what you've written. You're entitled to disagree with me, but the insults, smarta$$ attitude, and profanity were uncalled for. You display this type of hostility and immaturity, and wonder why someone would be reluctant to help you meet with GM Sin? :rolleyes:

[The Willow Sword]

Your perspective is that i am blaming the school and joe for losing the challenge match. and i keep stating that i am not, ive stated it many times in the past and will continue to here until you get it through your thick skull. i could care less what you think about my "attitude", yours is one of a mightier and higher than thou because you feel you train in something that precedes all other styles and systems, it is the arrogance that permeates that school and the quiet arrogance and mightier than though attitude that most of the sd'ers here seem to exude(with the exception of JP who has been pretty straight forward and at times understanding of the dilemas and controversies that Sd is riddled with in the TCMA and SHAOLIN realm)

if you are going to make a perspective based on something i have stated and your perspective goes to the opposite of what i have stated then its no wonder you get the 3rd degree from me because i AM tired of repeating myself on the subject. its like trying to get a 3rd grader to understand that 3+3=6 and they keep saying " so 3+3=0.

oh and KC will not be able to set up this "meeting", he doesnt have enough pull and sin the wouldnt waste his time doing so anyway, i mean when you think about it why would he? since people seem to think that he should be treated like the president of the united states then why would the president meet with a lowly citizen such as myself to answer questions about a lineage that from all "perspectives and opinions" is allegedly fabricated?


TWS

[Baqualin]

SO okay if a student joins the sd school and goes through the curriculum and has this broad array of styles and systems that he/she is learning, and gets to that point where they are learning hsing i from you, that student says " you know i really like hsing i and i want to learn more of that and specialize in that? you mean to tell me that you are going to tell that student to go elsewhere to master it? comeone guys i am not twisting peoples words you are basically saying that you do not have any sort of mastery program there for students who get to a certain level in your school and want to specialize.

dont give me this mastery is within stuff okay, we all know the proverbial wisdom here. we have all eaten at enough chinese resteraunts and had tons of fortune cookies to all be proverbial masters. i am talking about actually LEARNING a SYSTEM of Chinese martial arts that YOU GUYS claim to teach in your curriculum. instead so much material is taught out and one moves quickly through the material, then there are the seminars for whatever new special secret form or system that everyone jumps on the bandwagon to learn, yet you all have to still adhere to the curriculum that is set out to attain what you guys call "MASTER" at 5th degree black belt, and what is it that distinction brings with it? is it mastery in any system that is taught? no it is a designation stating that one has gone through a whole slew of forms and systems but no real specialization in those forms or systems. its all a jumbled mess in my opinion. and what about Eric Smith who is the "internal specialist" in the school or bob green who is the "monkey specialist" or whomever else in the senior masters category who have "specialized" in something?
if you claim to teach out a system a WHOLE system like Hsing i is or a WHOLE system like Bagua is ,,OR Tai chi,, then be prepared to have a FOCUS on those systems for those students who are wanting to learn those.

you know in the days when i was a loyalist to this school my idea had been to intially learn the bagua and the tai chi and hsing i and "specialize" in that and teach that, since these are the 3 internals that have a relationship to one another, i figured that this would be a lifetime of material and would take a while to master and become proficient enough to actually teach it to others as well as be formidable in the systems. It is actually what attracted me to SD in the very beginning, that they taught out these systems and that is what i wanted to learn. but i was told that i had to go through the curriculum to get to those that were taught out at higher levels in SD. so i bought into it and actually, seminars were held that taught out bagu and hsing i as well as tai chi seperate from the curriculum BEFORE i got my 1st degree black belt. by the time i tested for 2nd degree i already had most of the material for second degree to test for 3rd, because of all the extra seminars i took.

so you guys mean to tell me that with all these systems that you have and that you teach out that you have NO-ONE who could specialize and teach out the sd versions of these systems to people who want to learn it souley? i mean most of your schools have a tai chi program seperate from the regular sd curriculum, so whay not with bagua and hsing i? or even the mantis that you claim to have everything on?

TWS
We do......you should have stuck around.....It's not a Tai Chi Program....it's an internal program.....white sashes start with first 2 circles of classical Pakua...it focuses on all three.....not just learning forms either. Also the Masters at my school seem to like Pakua and Hsing I...just ask my sternum and ribs:cool:

[BentMonk]

Your perspective is that i am blaming the school and joe for losing the challenge match. and i keep stating that i am not, ive stated it many times in the past and will continue to here until you get it through your thick skull. i could care less what you think about my "attitude", yours is one of a mightier and higher than thou because you feel you train in something that precedes all other styles and systems, it is the arrogance that permeates that school and the quiet arrogance and mightier than though attitude that most of the sd'ers here seem to exude(with the exception of JP who has been pretty straight forward and at times understanding of the dilemas and controversies that Sd is riddled with in the TCMA and SHAOLIN realm)

if you are going to make a perspective based on something i have stated and your perspective goes to the opposite of what i have stated then its no wonder you get the 3rd degree from me because i AM tired of repeating myself on the subject. its like trying to get a 3rd grader to understand that 3+3=6 and they keep saying " so 3+3=0.
TWS

Dude, I have never came across in any of my posts as high and mighty or arrogant. I have posted many times that I feel SD's history is more legend than fact. I have also stated that this is not unique to SD. I simply stated that I didn't appreciate your attitude toward me over a simple observation. Yet you still persist with the petty insults and antagonism. What I typed is my opinion. We disagree. So what. Why continue the insults? The mature approach would be to re-direct the exchanges to another aspect of the topic at hand. Whatever floats your boat man. :confused:

[Baqualin]

but my heart wasnt in that fight because of the rug being pulled out from under me by those i trusted and followed

[BentMonk]

but my heart wasnt in that fight because of the rug being pulled out from under me by those i trusted and followed

That was EXACTLY what I was getting at. Thanks.

[tattooedmonk]

Posters on this thread present all manner of facts, opinions, and questions relating to the topic at hand. Insulting someone because you do not like what that person says about the topic will not accomplish anything but making yourself look bad. So how's about we have a civilized discussion and leave out the name calling.if you are stupid i will call you stupid ...if you are an idiot i will tell you that you are an idiot ..and if you are full of sh*t then I will tell you that you are full of sh*t ...these are not insults these are the truth based on the facts ...if you were wearing a bikini and doing a pole dance with dollars in your panties I would call you a striper... quit crying suck it up and move on

[BM2]

Gene asked to tone it done on here. It is not a right to post here but a privilege from KFO.
Jerry "The King" Lawyer was a wrestler that I watched on Sat. mornings. He had a line that I liked, "Son...Everyone has a right to be ugly... but your abusing your right :p "
Some on here are abusing their right to be stupid.;)

[tattooedmonk]

It has a tradition, but the tradition is not Shaolin's tradition. SD men do not do keep with REAL shaolin when it comes to forms and technique.

How a person does techniques is not superficial. The Philosophy is only half of the equation.

It is not shaolin because the SD forms that I have seem, are not perform in the way that is generally done in kung fu. I such lack of understanding in some cases that it made me cringe. It isn't a difference in flavor, it is just poorly done.

Do you really think I know nothing about Kung fu? My Sigung agrees with me. He has over 60 years of experience in kung fu. My sifu has close to 30 years of experience and his agrees. I spoke to other sifu with a lot of experience and they agree.

Now, only Chinese know about Shaolin and kung fu? Is your GM Korean and he learned in Indonesia?

I teach karate? Are you saying that TSPK is karate? You asked a question, but I understand the semantics of it. Be careful! This is a friendly warning. Show a video to any master of your GM and my sigung doing forms and techniques and see which they think REAL kung fu.

On you GM website, it has shaolin karate

If forms and techniques are not a big part of what a style is, then what is? So what is shaolin's tradition then?..I do not see that any of you are monks or priests or are even buddhist ,taoist or confucists...

the forms are from chinses origin they have evolved with the times..as for techniques how do you know?? What techniques have you seen???

if you take the techniques out of your pretty little forms they only work with a cooperative opponent..with ours it works with the most uncooperative opponent....

doing forms for performance ( which is what most of you do ) and doing forms for fighting/ application ( which is what most of us do ) is completely diffferent ..

we are not here to be posers we are here to be real martial artists..

that is the difference..

and if this mean that we do it wrong ...well then I guess we do it wrong ...but I would rather do it wrong for the right reasons than do it right for the wrong reasons

I asked very simple questions and the only one you could answer was that you were not chinese..now answer the questions or STFU!!!

you probably do a form of modern wushu then

[Flying-Monkey]

if you are stupid i will call you stupid ...if you are an idiot i will tell you that you are an idiot ..and if you are full of sh*t then I will tell you that you are full of sh*t ...these are not insults these are the truth based on the facts ...if you were wearing a bikini and doing a pole dance with dollars in your panties I would call you a striper... quit crying suck it up and move on

Dude, you need to be banned. It is not because our opinions are different. It is because you do not know how to express your opinion without insulting someone.

Maybe, this will help:

Instead of calling someone stupid full of sh!t or an idiot, you can say they are misinformed, terribly mistaken or just plain wrong.

[Flying-Monkey]

Are you calling Tai Shing Pek Kwar modern wushu?

[tattooedmonk]

Dude, you need to be banned. It is not because our opinions are different. It is because you do not know how to express your opinion without insulting someone.

Maybe, this will help:

Instead of calling someone stupid full of sh!t or an idiot, you can say they are misinformed, terribly mistaken or just plain wrong.whatever ..... I have said all this time and time again ...

you all need to get an education and quit your stupid, idiotic and full of sh*t banter about what is and what is not Shaolin .

..because you all have no clue...

you all take this internet Sh*t way too serious and do not take Kung fu Or shaolin Serious enough

...or else you would see that SD is Shaolin ,It is Kung fu ,and has just as much legitimacy as any other form of chinese martial arts...

and if you want to whine and cry PM gene ching and complain, quit doing martial arts and take up knitting...

because you obviously do not have what it take to be a martial artists

[Radhnoti]

RD - "Why do newbies come here and brag about SD's history? Maybe it should not be taught if it's clearly not true?"

Marketing, in my opinion, is necessary for a successful school.

RD - "My experiance with Indo systems is minor, however I have seen enough to say the above comment may very well be correct. It is also the opinion of someone I do respect and has the experiance to judge."

kc - "If this person you Respect thinks SD looks like Karate I suppose you mean Japanese when you say that then you should reconsider who you respect."

RD - "Not karate, the Indo stuff."

If it's from Indonesia and held on to the "kuntao" classification, the teachers/students still consider it "pure" Chinese martial arts. If it's called "silat" it may or may not have Chinese influence...many teachers of Chinese systems caved to societal pressures and simply reclassified themselves as "silat" which was the generic classification for Indonesian martial arts.
Shaolin-do literature plainly states that it took on at least the outward aspects of karate...so SD WAS changed in Indonesia. SD history just kind of briefly mentions that the art SOLELY existed in Indonesia for an entire generation...the generation that CONSTRUCTED the art/system. I'm sure GM Sin's personal stories touch on life in Bandung, but I've really never heard about it.

[Flying-Monkey]

Yeah, keep talking sh!t

[The Willow Sword]

but my heart wasnt in that fight because of the rug being pulled out from under me by those i trusted and followed

no it wasnt, but it doesnt mean that i didnt do the best that i could and did not fight as hard as i could,considering. you take that statement to mean that i am blaming joe and the sd school for me losing that fight, and it is just not true. what i blame joe for is the fact that he told me i would have support and representation to the match and at the last minute he withdrew it. to me that shows a lack of integrity and honor.
Lorenz san pedro was to accompany me at the behest of joe at the time(this was way before lorenz screwed himself by getting involved with that 14 year old at the school). do you understand now where i am coming from? i didnt ask joe or lorenz or the school to fight my battles for me, believe me i fight my own. but when your teacher intially gives you support and then takes it away with no real explanation other than "hey you are on your own with this one". it makes me feel like i was never really welcome or respected at that school anyway. that is all in depth that i am going to go on the subject, so hopefully you can get the drift now instead of coming up with these opinions that go opposite of what i have been telling you all along.

believe me when i tell you now, my loyalties are to #1 here and if and when i ever decide to spar or fight again it will be on my terms and not relying on some organization or anyone. that was my lesson that day and i learned it well.
TWS

[Flying-Monkey]

Just by reading your posts, even SD guys can see that you don't know what you are talking about.

[The Xia]

Here is an idea. Royal Dragon posted a mantis video. I have posted a Bak Mei video. There have been videos posted here that are good examples of TCMA. Why don't the SDers here post some videos of Shaolin Do forms they feel are top-notch?

[tattooedmonk]

Just by reading your posts, even SD guys can see that you don't know what you are talking about. you show me where...

some just do not like my style.....

but they know that I am dedicated and loyal to SD and know exactly what i am talking about.

..because I am SD trained for 15 years and I am still loyal to my shaolin brethren , masters, and art through and through.

...so until you know what you are talking about STFU...

[Flying-Monkey]

Please! You know nothing about kung fu. Arguing with you is like arguing with a child.

[Flying-Monkey]

Please answer this question.

Are forms and techniques a big part of a style?

[tattooedmonk]

Here is an idea. Royal Dragon posted a mantis video. I have posted a Bak Mei video. There have been videos posted here that are good examples of TCMA. Why don't the SDers here post some videos of Shaolin Do forms they feel are top-notch?how about you and royal dragon post videos of yourselves, instead of posting others doing forms, of what you think is real kung fu and shaolin...

..then maybe some of us will consider your proposal...

until then I am just going to think that you are a internet troll and a keyboard martial artist that can only go by what he sees and believes to be true shaolin and true kung fu and has no true understanding of what being a martial artists is or any clue as to what being shaolin or having kung fu is all about...

quit living off of the illumination of others and start cultivating the light within yourselves

[Flying-Monkey]

how about you and royal dragon post videos of yourselves, instead of posting others doing forms, of what you think is real kung fu and shaolin...

..then maybe some of us will consider your proposal...

until then I am just going to think that you are a internet troll and a keyboard martial artist that can only go by what he sees and believes to be true shaolin and true kung fu and has no true understanding of what being a martial artists is or any clue as to what being shaolin or having kung fu is all about...

quit living off of the illumination of others and start cultivating the light within yourselves

You post yourself doing a form and I will post myself doing a form.

Do you think the examples they posted are bad examples of Kung fu?

Oh yeah, you didn't answer this question:

Do you think Tai Shing Pek Kwar is modern wushu?

[The Xia]

Did you ever stop to think that it may be a pain in the behind for someone to go out and buy a camera and film himself just so some people on a Shaolin Do thread will stop using a certain cop-out? Not to mention, what I or any other posters do has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This whole "Let's see you" attitude is a diversion to draw attention away from what the poster says. I will not comply.

[tattooedmonk]

Please answer this question.

Are forms and techniques a big part of a style?no they are not what make a big part of a style..... style is the way that one expresses forms and techniques... their creative expression.

some styles have become systems because people decided to specifically study certain styles exclusively

Shaolin Do is a system that has many styles.... and within this system and styles there are substyles and they are all stylized by the individual and are not some cookie cutter copy of what everybody else is doing

a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick.

the only thing that makes them different is how they are done and how effective they are

forms and techniques are what make up the system...and depending on the system they can make up a large or smaller part depending on the school

.....for you to say, based on what is available on the net, that SD does not have chinese forms or techniques is just stupid, idiotic, and full of sh!t...

get a clue , join an Sd school and /or practice with someone within the school and you will find out the true meaning behind Shaolin Do

[tattooedmonk]

You post yourself doing a form and I will post myself doing a form.

Do you think the examples they posted are bad examples of Kung fu?

Oh yeah, you didn't answer this question:

Do you think Tai Shing Pek Kwar is modern wushu?you post and then I will post..but how will I know that it is you ..??

the forms are authentic chinese forms

I also acknowledge that master sin and master Ie have created forms along the way based on the Shaolin forms already inherent in the system and that some of the forms that have been shown are of their creation and are the quite possibly the reason why they are not seen in other styles / systems

..but masters of systems/ styles have been doing this from the beginning...so this irrelevant

... I agree that they are not done with the chinese flavor that you all are refering to ..this makes sense to me because of the travels of the grandmasters and the evolution of Shaolin Tao into Shaolin Do....but this does not make it anyless kung fu

as for TSPK...I have seen it done for pure performance and also by pauly zink with martiala pplication ..I do not know you and have not seen you do anything ..yet.... but based on your performance of a form I will tell you if it is done like wushu( performance art) of wushu( fighting art).....

fair enough???

[Flying-Monkey]

you post and then I will post..but how will I know that it is you ..??

the forms are authentic chinese forms

I also acknowledge that master sin and master Ie have created forms along the way based on the Shaolin forms already inherent in the system and that some of the forms that have been shown are of their creation and are the quite possibly the reason why they are not seen in other styles / systems

..but masters of systems/ styles have been doing this from the beginning...so this irrelevant

... I agree that they are not done with the chinese flavor that you all are refering to ..this makes sense to me because of the travels of the grandmasters and the evolution of Shaolin Tao into Shaolin Do....but this does not make it anyless kung fu

as for TSPK...I have seen it done for pure performance and also by pauly zink with martiala pplication ..I do not know you and have not seen you do anything ..yet.... but based on your performance of a form I will tell you if it is done like wushu( performance art) of wushu( fighting art).....

fair enough???

If you think Paulie Zink is TSPK, then you don't have a clue.

[tattooedmonk]

Did you ever stop to think that it may be a pain in the behind for someone to go out and buy a camera and film himself just so some people on a Shaolin Do thread will stop using a certain cop-out? Not to mention, what I or any other posters do has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This whole "Let's see you" attitude is a diversion to draw attention away from what the poster says. I will not comply. did you ever stop to think that you just posting the same sh!t over and over is a big pain in the A$$??

if you are going to judge and criticize you have to stop using other peoples skills as a gauge against SD and start using your own instead of using your same old cop out about how your skill is not in question here......

your pseudo- psychology is not going to work ...no one can even take you seriously if you do not not put up a form of your own...


you are a troll and a keyboard martial artist that has nothing better to do with there time except watch youtube and post about all the websites that you have gotten your information from and pretend that you know what you are talking about

..so put up or shut up!!!

[tattooedmonk]

If you think Paulie Zink is TSPK, then you don't have a clue.did i say that ?? who do you think is a good representative of TSPK...put up a link or a website something...who is your master??

[The Xia]

How many times do I have to say it....What I, or anyone other poster here, does has nothing to do with the topic. You are copping out by diverting attention to me and not the content being discussed. So focus on the **** content instead of pointing to me. The more you ask for me to "put up or shut up" the more you show that you'd rather not deal with what I'm saying.
And you are still insulting people. :rolleyes:
You should realize that you are only hurting your cause by doing this.

[Flying-Monkey]

did i say that ?? who do you think is a good representative of TSPK...put up a link or a website something...who is your master??

My master is Sifu Chan Kai Leung.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=234


My grand master is Sigung Chan Sau Chung (known as the monkey king).

He is one of the most respected grand masters in kung fu.


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=259

I am in one of the Kung fu magazines doing a Pek Kwar application demo.

[The Xia]

Don't forget to answer this...

I showed my sigung about ten SD videos and some websites. He said it was not kung fu, too. Are you saying that my sigung has no clue and he is an idiot?

[tattooedmonk]

How many times do I have to say it....What I, or anyone other poster here, does has nothing to do with the topic. You are copping out by diverting attention to me and not the content being discussed. So focus on the **** content instead of pointing to me. The more you ask for me to "put up or shut up" the more you show that you'd rather not deal with what I'm saying.
And you are still insulting people. :rolleyes:
You should realize that you are only hurting your cause by doing this.it may have nothing to do with the topic but when you post others instead of yourself is it leads people to believe that either you are full of sh!t and no nothing or have very little skill and would be embarased to show yourself doing forms for us to compare SD's to....

if you look at my posts I have no problem dealing with what you and others are saying ..like I said get an education , learn how to read and comprehend ,and stop taking what you want out of these posts and puttting them in a different context and interpreting them in some distorted way

the facts and the proof are here ..you just choose to be ignorant to them ...

you can only be insulted if you accept the insult...

[tattooedmonk]

[QUOTE=The Xia;708439]Don't forget to answer thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Flying-Monkey
I showed my sigung about ten SD videos and some websites. He said it was not kung fu, too. Are you saying that my sigung has no clue and he is an idiot?
[QUOTE] I do not say anything about other peoples masters..if he has said this i would like to know in what context....

[tattooedmonk]

My master is Sifu Chan Kai Leung.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=234


My grand master is Sigung Chan Sau Chung (known as the monkey king).

He is one of the most respected grand masters in kung fu.


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=259

I am in one of the Kung fu magazines doing a Pek Kwar application demo. yeah I have read this and know of both of them ...good stuff....

funny thing is that in this second one there is an article by one of the SD master ( David theroff) doing an article about the southere shaolin temple

do you respect this magazine, and this forum?? if you do ...why do you think that they would feature shaolin do and articles from our masters in it if they did not think that is was shaolin , kung fu , or real???

[The Xia]

it may have nothing to do with the topic but when you post others instead of yourself is it leads people to believe that either you are full of sh!t and no nothing or have very little skill and would be embarased to show yourself doing forms for us to compare SD's to....
Let's put it this way. You don't know me. This is the internet. I can be extremely skilled, I can suck, or I can be somewhere in-between. I can say a number of things about myself and post any number of videos...there is no way for you to know if it’s true. So why bother? That's the internet. It doesn't matter anyway. Where I am skill wise and what I do does not change what I said. Focus not on the poster, but what is posted.

it if you look at my posts I have no problem dealing with what you and others are saying ..like I said get an education , learn how to read and comprehend ,and stop taking what you want out of these posts and puttting them in a different context and interpreting them in some distorted way
As opposed to addressing the content in a reasonable manner you tell me to "put up or shut up" and the like. As for education, I can obviously read otherwise I wouldn't be posting. I can obviously comprehend otherwise I wouldn't reply. You claim I distorted things. Where are these alleged distortions?

the facts and the proof are here ..you just choose to be ignorant to them ...
Where is this alleged proof?

you can only be insulted if you accept the insult...
You called me stupid, an idiot, and full of ****....If those aren't insults what are they?

[Flaca]

yeah I have read this and know of both of them ...good stuff....

funny thing is that in this second one there is an article by one of the SD master ( David theroff) doing an article about the southere shaolin temple

do you respect this magazine, and this forum?? if you do ...why do you think that they would feature shaolin do and articles from our masters in it if they did not think that is was shaolin , kung fu , or real???

I noticed that too, regarding David Theroff. Interesting. I believe he's part of the Soard school system.

[Flying-Monkey]

yeah I have read this and know of both of them ...good stuff....

funny thing is that in this second one there is an article by one of the SD master ( David theroff) doing an article about the southere shaolin temple

do you respect this magazine, and this forum?? if you do ...why do you think that they would feature shaolin do and articles from our masters in it if they did not think that is was shaolin , kung fu , or real???

I like and respect the magazine. However, they have published some questionable articles. For example, they had some Paulie Zink stuff in there.

I am not an editor at this magazine.

I never said that all SD people are lying or that they can't write truthful articles. However, what is on their sites and their forms are very questionable.

[godzillakungfu]

I noticed that too, regarding David Theroff. Interesting. I believe he's part of the Soard school system.

Once upon a time. No longer.

[Judge Pen]

[I]My experiance with Indo systems is minor, however I have seen enough to say the above comment may very well be correct. It is also the opinion of someone I do respect and has the experiance to judge.

MS2 has no problem speaking for himself RD. :D

[Judge Pen]

Here is an idea. Royal Dragon posted a mantis video. I have posted a Bak Mei video. There have been videos posted here that are good examples of TCMA. Why don't the SDers here post some videos of Shaolin Do forms they feel are top-notch?

Because my teachers don't care about a petty argument on the internet and I'm not posting videos of my teachers to drag their name in this. If they were putting themselves out on youtube or whatever, then I'd link to them. There was a set a videos posted on the CSC site that had, in one video clip, several demonstrations. Most of them were descent, a few were bad (imo) and the two videos of chain-whip and chani-whip and broadsword were excellent.

I posted my video to at least show that a form that everyone is taught in SD prior to black obviously has a chinese origin. All I will post is videos of me. I'm not going to drag third-parties into it. If they feel threatened by all this debate, then they can come here and defend themselves.

[Judge Pen]

You post yourself doing a form and I will post myself doing a form.

I'd like to see your forms anyway.

TTM, as much as I appreciate your zeal in this argument, you always degrad your points with personal attacks. That approach will get you banned around here and doesn't add any credibilty to your posts.

[Flying-Monkey]

I'd like to see your forms anyway.

TTM, as much as I appreciate your zeal in this argument, you always degrad your points with personal attacks. That approach will get you banned around here and doesn't add any credibilty to your posts.

Judge,

I will post some stuff of me soon. I will delete some of my posts, because I am shaming my teachers by including their names into this.

[ninthdrunk]

Man, this has gotten really bad around here. I hope no one is surprised when this thread is locked.

TTM, for the sake of keeping this thread going, if you can't be respectful of the people who don't share your opinion, don't talk with them. I can't think of a single post of yours in the last few pages that I didn't see as insulting or condescending. You talk about how the SD people on here respect you, but I'm not so sure that's the case honestly. For myself, I know it's not the case. Typically, I respect the person first and the martial artist second. Fifteen years isn't that long in the grand scheme of things, and you seem to flaunt your years and "respect for the art" as if that means you are entitled to respect. Well, it doesn't work that way. People aren't respected because they are entitled to it. They are respected because they have earned it. Well, I wouldn't say that you have earned it around here. Sorry. ***I'm sure you're gonna tell me you don't care what others think, and send me a whole lists of reasons that I'm below the Shaolin name. Would you spare the thread, and just reply in PM***

I don't see why this whole arguments is so hard about whether our forms are traditional or shaolin or whatever, based on how we do them. I see where other people are coming from, but I don't think we're going about it the right way. First off, if we learned our forms a certain way, and learned that they are "traditional," every form we see that isn't done the way we do it (to a certain degree), then we'll say, "that's not traditional!" Same as with all the folks on here who do Shaolin and learned their forms a certain way, they see ours, which I'll admit are not ALWAYS performed by EACH STUDENT the same, you shout, "that's not shaolin." I think we need some other sort of grading scale.

[Judge Pen]

I can't wait for this thread to get locked and then a new one just like it pops up in, say a month tops. We can then re-hash every argument ALL OVER AGAIN. Won't that be fun? :rolleyes:

As far as the interview, I think that should come from KFM. Maybe do a special on styles with controversial lineages and see if the heads of each would do an interview regarding the origin of thier style, the effectiveness of their art, the differences in their forms and why. Gene or some other KFO agent should conduct the interview and ask the hard questions professionally. I have no idea if anyone, including the GM The, would want to do that, but if its to be done, let a professional do it.

[MasterKiller]

yeah I have read this and know of both of them ...good stuff....

funny thing is that in this second one there is an article by one of the SD master ( David theroff) doing an article about the southere shaolin temple

do you respect this magazine, and this forum?? if you do ...why do you think that they would feature shaolin do and articles from our masters in it if they did not think that is was shaolin , kung fu , or real???


Gene said he printed it for the photographs...

[Golden Tiger]

Gene said he did printed it for the photographs...

So are you saying that Gene and KFO will compromise their integerity for pretty pictures?:D

Hey 9th and BM2, what did you think of the 3rd and 4th roads? I found them very interesting. Your take?

[MasterKiller]

As far as the interview, I think that should come from KFM. Maybe do a special on styles with controversial lineages and see if the heads of each would do an interview regarding the origin of thier style, the effectiveness of their art, the differences in their forms and why. Gene or some other KFO agent should conduct the interview and ask the hard questions professionally. I have no idea if anyone, including the GM The, would want to do that, but if its to be done, let a professional do it.

Interviewing Sin is a ridiculous idea. He's already made his official position public in his book and DVDs, so what's left to ask?

He's not going to backdown because some reporter from Kungfu magazine got in his face, let alone some nut like TWS. :rolleyes:

He's probably just recounting bedtime stories Grandpappy Ie told him as a kid, anyway.

[Radhnoti]

I'll back up MK on that. Gene said it was the first photos they'd gotten of the Southern Temple.
I think Gene tries to play it impartial, but c'mon he studied at Shaolin and got a monk name...it shouldn't be too surprising where his personal opinion stands in regards to SD. He's mentioned having a "shaolin-do story" before and implied that the monks at Shaolin didn't think too highly of GM Sin in it.
And I'm not trying to slam Gene here...kudos to him for letting his opinion be known without making the environment more hostile for SD here.

[MasterKiller]

BTW, it's my favorite SDer's birthday today. :p

[Baqualin]

Interviewing Sin is a ridiculous idea. He's already made his official position public in his book and DVDs, so what's left to ask?

He's not going to backdown because some reporter from Kungfu magazine got in his face, let alone some nut like TWS. :rolleyes:

He's probably just recounting bedtime stories Grandpappy Ie told him as a kid, anyway.

You've got a pretty good head on your shoulders MK.:)

[BM2]

I suppose the cookie from here expired and I had to sign in again. It put me on pg 95 of this thread and I didn't even know I was on the wrong page untill someone posted about it getting up to 100.
This merry-go-round never stops, just new people jump on;)

[BM2]

I have some new combos now;) Looking forward to the next Ground Monkey.

[Golden Tiger]

BTW, it's my favorite SDer's birthday today.

It sure is. Happy b-day Meecer. He hasn't been around here in a while but I saw him last weekend. Looked in top form as usual.

Also, congrats to Baqualin on passing his test. Heard thru the grape vine that you did very well.

[The Willow Sword]

Hey all, I would like to apologize for my attitude lately. i shouldnt be so up in arms about everything but i get that way sometimes, especially when certain members here get on and post what they post. It has been a long process getting over all of this and i guess it will be a long process yet before this becomes a distant memory for me. It is tough to start a new career when the last one did not work out so well, plus being in my mid 30's it is scary enough having to start over now. when i look back at what i have tried to accomplish it seems as though i have done absolutely nothing and have gotten nowhere. Yes i get angry when i think back to when the times got so turbulent, and i acknowledge my own responsability in how things have turned out for me. but i stand by some of the things i have said and yes i state them passionately. but you are right i shouldnt act so hostile, but i do at times when it comes to this very issue and this very thread, it is a reminder to me just how frustrating it has been. try to think of my attitude as one of maybe a guy who has worked and been dedicated to a company for a long time and then he gets laid off, and is left standing there wondering what the hell happened and what went wrong, and realizing that it was not much fault of his own but that he was naive in that he did not see the cut off coming.
But anyway, new things are on the horizon for me and i guess i will see if this new approach will bear fruit for me.
So anyway in conclusion, apologies for the brash attitude at times,guys.

Peace,TWS

[MasterKiller]

try to think of my attitude as one of maybe a guy who has worked and been dedicated to a company for a long time and then he gets laid off, and is left standing there wondering what the hell happened and what went wrong, and realizing that it was not much fault of his own but that he was naive in that he did not see the cut off coming

Just another victim of the Republican corporation machine. The machine doesn't care about you, so strike back by wasting enormous amounts of time online when you are supposed to be cranking out another dollar for the military industrial complex.

It is the one, true way.

[Baqualin]

Hey all, I would like to apologize for my attitude lately. i shouldnt be so up in arms about everything but i get that way sometimes, especially when certain members here get on and post what they post. It has been a long process getting over all of this and i guess it will be a long process yet before this becomes a distant memory for me. It is tough to start a new career when the last one did not work out so well, plus being in my mid 30's it is scary enough having to start over now. when i look back at what i have tried to accomplish it seems as though i have done absolutely nothing and have gotten nowhere. Yes i get angry when i think back to when the times got so turbulent, and i acknowledge my own responsability in how things have turned out for me. but i stand by some of the things i have said and yes i state them passionately. but you are right i shouldnt act so hostile, but i do at times when it comes to this very issue and this very thread, it is a reminder to me just how frustrating it has been. try to think of my attitude as one of maybe a guy who has worked and been dedicated to a company for a long time and then he gets laid off, and is left standing there wondering what the hell happened and what went wrong, and realizing that it was not much fault of his own but that he was naive in that he did not see the cut off coming.
But anyway, new things are on the horizon for me and i guess i will see if this new approach will bear fruit for me.
So anyway in conclusion, apologies for the brash attitude at times,guys.

Peace,TWS

Hey Willow...I had those feelings when I got divorced after spending 19 yrs. with the same person...I was 48 and had started a new career....here I was getting ready to turn 50 and out of circulation for 20 years...what was I going to do? Now I'm 53 with a 36 year old girl friend that's a BABE....... making more money than I ever have before, working 9 to 5 mon thru friday.....studying & teaching the internal side of SD. In the words of EML...there is life after death.....don't worry about where you've been, don't worry where you are now, only worry about where you go from here...that's the only thing you can do anything about. Peace be with you brother...you still have a lot of road left in front of you.;)

[ninthdrunk]

GT - man, I really liked the new roads. The third was pretty dang cool, but the fourth was amazing! All the elbows and knees to those yummy points of doom! It's great. I can't wait for the liu shing...especially since he likened it to 10,000 bees attacking. I've always wanted to learn some of that system....anything that uses elbows, knees and head-butts has my vote! And seriously the highlight was getting to just learn the names of the liu shing forms...I can't wait.

Oh, my students and I have started a golden leopard class where we use the moves from the forms and strike the points on each other. It's kinda tough, 'cause we want to hit hard enough to know we're in the right spot, but we also don't want to do too much damage! It's been fun so far.


Baqualin - I still don't believe you're as old as you say you are, sir! I've seen you, and I'm not buying it! Oh, congrats on your test!

[Baqualin]

GT - man, I really liked the new roads. The third was pretty dang cool, but the fourth was amazing! All the elbows and knees to those yummy points of doom! It's great. I can't wait for the liu shing...especially since he likened it to 10,000 bees attacking. I've always wanted to learn some of that system....anything that uses elbows, knees and head-butts has my vote! And seriously the highlight was getting to just learn the names of the liu shing forms...I can't wait.

Oh, my students and I have started a golden leopard class where we use the moves from the forms and strike the points on each other. It's kinda tough, 'cause we want to hit hard enough to know we're in the right spot, but we also don't want to do too much damage! It's been fun so far.


Baqualin - I still don't believe you're as old as you say you are, sir! I've seen you, and I'm not buying it! Oh, congrats on your test!

Thank You on both counts...I'll show you my drivers license at Liu Shing:cool:

Great Idea on the class...I think I'll get some people together and do the same...thats better than a manikin....moving target.:D

[Baqualin]

It sure is. Happy b-day Meecer. He hasn't been around here in a while but I saw him last weekend. Looked in top form as usual.

Also, congrats to Baqualin on passing his test. Heard thru the grape vine that you did very well.

Thank you very much....I'm very proud of all the internal students and all the support we're getting from the upper masters. But it's back to work this week....time to start working on Pakua Spear and the Golden Leopard......Life is good:D

[lunghushan]

http://shaolinseattle.com/

"The Seattle Chinese Shao-Lin Center is the only school in the state of Washington certified by a Shao-Lin Grandmaster to teach traditional Shao-Lin Kung Fu."

Isn't this kindof a joke if you think about it? Possibly the most dubious lineage anyplace saying they are the only certified Shaolin school ... ??? WTF

Whoops ... looks like it's broken.

Provider error '80004005'

Unspecified error

/csc/index.asp, line 8

Nevermind ... somebody just took all that content down! Hehehe

[godzillakungfu]

Let's make sure we keep it seperated.

Shaolin-Do doesn't say this at all. It is a marketing campaign by the Soards. Notice the spelling "Shao-Lin." This is their coporate name.

This is a play on words. Like the Jiujitsu(BJJ) vs. Jujitsu spelling that Kempo capitalized on. Whole different story I'm not getting into.

No, I don't agree with it but, it is a common practice. It is also true he is the GMT of the Chinese Shao-Lin Centers.:)

[lunghushan]

Let's make sure we keep it seperated.

Shaolin-Do doesn't say this at all. It is a marketing campaign by the Soards. Notice the spelling "Shao-Lin." This is their coporate name.

This is a play on words. Like the Jiujitsu(BJJ) vs. Jujitsu spelling that Kempo capitalized on. Whole different story I'm not getting into.

No, I don't agree with it but, it is a common practice. It is also true he is the GMT of the Chinese Shao-Lin Centers.:)

It's not the same, because Shao Lin is 2 words already...

So it's like calling your brand Pinesol instead of Pine-Sol. It's still confusing ...

Anyway, whatever ... I'm done with this crap. IMHO Shaolin-Do = nice people, but not for me. Kindof like Mormons. Nice people, but who would believe that story about the angel and the tablets???

[Baqualin]

http://shaolinseattle.com/

"The Seattle Chinese Shao-Lin Center is the only school in the state of Washington certified by a Shao-Lin Grandmaster to teach traditional Shao-Lin Kung Fu."

Isn't this kindof a joke if you think about it? Possibly the most dubious lineage anyplace saying they are the only certified Shaolin school ... ??? WTF

Whoops ... looks like it's broken.

Provider error '80004005'

Unspecified error

/csc/index.asp, line 8

Nevermind ... somebody just took all that content down! Hehehe

Go figure:rolleyes: We just got this thread calmed down a little and here you come trying to slam again....I was hoping to see you on here again so I could give you an email address of an SD instructor in San diego who I feel is a great representation of Shaolin Do.....he's a Calif. board certified Acupuncturist and Chinese Herbal Medicine Specialist W/ a Masters Degree in Traditional Oriental Medicine from Pacific College of Oriental Medicine.....he has regular classes and also teaches our Tai Chi forms in the park for donations...I thought you might interested in meeting a very talented and intelligent person who's a great repesentative of our system...if so let me know and I will PM you his email..if not...O well, I guess the world needs trolls too!

[lunghushan]

I'm just calling a spade a spade. Hua Shan is not Shaolin. Bagua is not Shaolin. Xingyi is not Shaolin. Not to mention the dubious lineage.

I think you Shaolin-Do people are nice guys but to say that this is Shaolin grandmaster certified and all that is kindof a stretch, right? Anyways, that site is back up now.

[Baqualin]

I'm just calling a spade a spade. Hua Shan is not Shaolin. Bagua is not Shaolin. Xingyi is not Shaolin. Not to mention the dubious lineage.

I think you Shaolin-Do people are nice guys but to say that this is Shaolin grandmaster certified and all that is kindof a stretch, right? Anyways, that site is back up now.

This has nothing to do with my post to you:confused: For one thing I'm SD not CSC....I thought you might be interested in meeting him...guess not. And by the way Shao lin was the library of alexandria of martial arts...there were styles developed in the temple that developed into styles outside the temple such as pakua which has a lot of Northern Shao lin techniques and styles developed outside of the temple that were absorbed into the temple ....todays monks do Tai Chi and as soon as you see it...you will go that's Chen Tai Chi...but they call it Shaolin Tai Chi. We do not claim everything we have or do comes from the temple...only our roots...it's the shao lin way. :D

[Baqualin]

Hey LUNG have you ever seen that movie...it's kinda fits chinese martial arts:cool:

[lunghushan]

This has nothing to do with my post to you:confused: For one thing I'm SD not CSC....

Whatever. Like I care the difference between SD and CSC ... ???

[lunghushan]

Hey LUNG have you ever seen that movie...it's kinda fits chinese martial arts:cool:

Yeah a cult movie funded by a cultist from funds he made from a software company he started with one cult done with the support of his new cult.

That's pretty apt here.

Wait ... that guy was from Boulder, right? Let me guess ... he's in Shaolin-Do too? LOL

[Baqualin]

Yeah a cult movie funded by a cultist from funds he made from a software company he started with one cult done with the support of his new cult.

That's pretty apt here.

Wait ... that guy was from Boulder, right? Let me guess ... he's in Shaolin-Do too? LOL

You don't enjoy life very much do you....I guess that's why your a troll:cool:

[lunghushan]

You don't enjoy life very much do you....I guess that's why your a troll:cool:

Uh, yeah ... state the obvious, and then you're a troll. Or maybe that pic of the hairy guy is the real deal. :rolleyes:

I will admit that I don't know everything about martial arts. Like I said, if you like what you're doing, fine, just don't expect everybody to believe the story.

[wdl]

*yawn*

-Will

[Judge Pen]

*yawn*

-Will

Go back to sleep. Nothing new to speak of.

[lunghushan]

What is interesting, though, is that it seems like soon, Shaolin will be a brand in the U.S., with ties to the temple in China, so that anybody who claims 'Shaolin' will have to be registered or something.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/2002-09-25-kung-fu-trademark_x.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/newsenglish/witn/2004/07/040702_shaolin_monks.shtml

So pretty soon, you just might find, that you cannot call 'Shaolin-Do' Shaolin after all. LOL

[godzillakungfu]

It's not the same, because Shao Lin is 2 words already...

So it's like calling your brand Pinesol instead of Pine-Sol. It's still confusing ...

Anyway, whatever ... I'm done with this crap. IMHO Shaolin-Do = nice people, but not for me. Kindof like Mormons. Nice people, but who would believe that story about the angel and the tablets???
Funny replace angel with mosesand you have the 10 commandments....hmm go figure.:)

Fits my point exactly. A little change here and a whole new religion is founded.

Add a hyphen or a Do and a whole new art is formed.

Thanks for helping me prove my point.

[lunghushan]

Funny replace angel with mosesand you have the 10 commandments....hmm go figure.:)

Fits my point exactly. A little change here and a whole new religion is founded.

Add a hyphen or a Do and a whole new art is formed.

Thanks for helping me prove my point.

Yeah, and thanks for proving mine ... LOL

[Citong Shifu]

What is interesting, though, is that it seems like soon, Shaolin will be a brand in the U.S., with ties to the temple in China, so that anybody who claims 'Shaolin' will have to be registered or something.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/2002-09-25-kung-fu-trademark_x.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/newsenglish/witn/2004/07/040702_shaolin_monks.shtml

So pretty soon, you just might find, that you cannot call 'Shaolin-Do' Shaolin after all. LOL


OT, for a moment... I find it rediculous that Songshan Shaolin Temple is trying to trademark the name Shaolin..... Now, dont get me wrong, if Songshan wants to trademark "THEIR TEMPLE & KUNGFU" thats fine, but to trademark the entire shaolin name give me a f#k'n break.....

Sonshan has decided that they will be able to make even more money off of shaolin kungfu if they trademark the name... There motives are money not kungfu... Besides, Songshan's kungfu is the government version of shaolin (shaolin wushu). Hell, 99% of the monks are wushu athletes :rolleyes: not Shaolin kungfu masters, etc.... This itself is a fraud, in my oppinion.... Example; u want to learn shaolin kungfu, ok, this is authentic shaolin kungfu, but students are actually learning "Shaolin Wushu" government version... Fact is fact....

Now, I'm not saying that Songshan doen't have some great wushu athletes cause they do... But, traditional, nope.... Of course I know that this subject can be agrued, I can honestly say, the truth and info is everywhere online....

Shaolin is a generic name with many meanings..... How does Songshan think their going to take comtrol of the many legitimate shaolin schools, with their shaolin kungfu being quite different then the others, except for CHAN....

Oh, everyone will have to "register" to use the shaolin kung fu name..... Money, money, money, Songshan sold out. Biggest load of B#llSh$t I've ever hrad, lol...

[lunghushan]

Oh, everyone will have to "register" to use the shaolin kung fu name..... Money, money, money, Songshan sold out. Biggest load of B#llSh$t I've ever hrad, lol...

Ahh, they're just getting with the times. They're jumping on the U.S. Capitalist fascist bus instead of the old Communist fascist bus is all. LOL

[Citong Shifu]

Ahh, they're just getting with the times. They're jumping on the U.S. Capitalist fascist bus instead of the old Communist fascist bus is all. LOL


Yeah, I know. But, thats the same as saying that everyone else is not shaolin temple kung fu, regardless if their henan, fujian (fukien), etc... As history documents several times Southern shaolin temple broke away from Northern S.T. for reasons of political debate and misshaps... Now Northen and Southern are represents together as one again, lol... This is because the PRC have investments and control of both now.... Who knows? I guess everyone should jump on the bandwagon together, the hell with everything else (figuritively speaking)...

Well, there will be resistance here in the U.S.. We'll see what happens when Songshan get their trademark, lol... It will only be for Sonshan and their kungfu, Songshan shaolin kungfu... One entity will not be able to soley TM all of shaolin kungfu.... It's impossible..... Therefore, they can only lay claim to what they representns and their methods...

[Royal Dragon]

The name fell into public domain some 1498+ years ago

[Lorenzo Valla]

This is a fairly long post, I'm going to break it up into several parts. If you're interested please read and comment, if not you might have to jump ahead a few pages. I apologize for the length, but wanted to be as complete and accurate as possible.

I am a long-time practitioner of Shaolin and have known Sin and Hiang The for over 25 years. I recently came across this forum a few weeks ago and took a while to read over some of the posts. The biggest surprise for me was to discover how much Sin’s club has expanded over the past few years. Several items concerning the system and Sin’s history need to be clarified and I intend to set the record straight. None of my comments should be mistaken for value judgments, except where I clearly say so. If you enjoy what you’re doing, and you’re not hurting anyone in the process, then by all means continue. My motivation for speaking out is simple; my friends and I are getting older and the longer we wait the more damage will be done.

First, I’m not going to be drawn into an argument about whether or not the brothers learned a true CMA system. Many of the members of this forum claim that a person can only really learn one system in a lifetime, yet in the same post are able to render instantaneous judgment about the validity of every form they see. No further comments on these weak arguments or fallacious reasoning are needed.

Second, right or wrong, both brothers were given an extremely traditional martial arts education. The material is similarly presented to their students and they are drilled in that material during limited class hours. If the student can’t remember how to do the form or technique correctly, and won’t ask a question about why they look so ridiculous doing the material, then that situation is on them. Nothing further needs to be said, if you don’t like that method of instruction I understand completely, but all of the posts in the world aren’t going to change it. For example, when I saw the clip from the Soard’s school in Denver of some guy doing Fung Wong Chuey Han Chien (The Mad Drunk) I was stunned. I could barely recognize it. But I’ll focus my concern on how I perform the material and move forward, asking questions, taking notes to ensure that I’m on the right track. Bottom line: This is my opinion why so many people who have studied the system present their material weakly or incorrectly.

Here’s my thesis and I’ll provide supporting information: Sin The was a well-trained, gifted and dedicated martial artist (quite frankly a natural athlete, incredibly powerful), who shortly after he arrived in Lexington, KY in 1964 began to exaggerate his background and ranking for undetermined reasons. When his younger brother, Hiang, arrived four years later, he was calling himself the grandmaster of a system called “Shao-lin Karate-do” and the “Sin The Karate Club.” Although Master Hiang acquiesced to the situation for undetermined reasons, family loyalty to the eldest son probably played a part. In addition, he had just arrived from Indonesia, barely spoke English and his brother was his only link to home.

[Lorenzo Valla]

Lineage of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.

Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Jin: There’s no need to go over this story again, it’s been repeated often enough on this forum. But briefly, Master Su Kong was the head of the martial arts program at the Fukien Temple. Every Shaolin Temple had an Abbot, a senior Buddhist and a senior martial artist. Master Hiang has several photos of him and has no reason to doubt his existence. However, he has stated several times that when he was a young man training, he didn’t concern himself enough with the oral history and tradition. Most guys in their teenage years, early twenties wouldn’t either. Several people on this forum are apparently world-class historians, researchers and Chinese linguists who have pronounced the lack of documentation on this man means he didn’t exist. If they provide evidence of their background and research on the subject I would accept it. In the meantime to draw a conclusion from premises stating that nothing is know or proven is a fallacy of weak induction; more specifically known as an Appeal to Ignorance. Besides, if you’re going to lie about the identity of someone in this case wouldn’t you just get a photo of some random Asian guy?

Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming – (Tie Chang Sang Ren) 1882-1968: Master Ie was a disciple at the Fukien Shaolin Temple from the age of six. In his early 20s he fled the chaos of China and ended up in Indonesia. After reuniting with several other colleagues from the Fukien Temple many years later, they formed the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School. Master Ie was the founder of the school and named the grandmaster. (The last two sentences are important, please re-read.) He was Sin and Hiang’s (and their other brother and sisters) maternal grandfather. He passed away in 1968, and his grave is marked and dated. I do not understand the confusion on this issue. While Master Hiang did not broadcast this fact until the mid-1980s, he never lied about it.

Grandmaster Hiang Kwang The – (Liu Fo Se): Like many of the Chinese that settled in Indonesia, they changed their family name to conceal their ethnicity. Their family name is Chen. If you are a Chinese linguist you can look at the character (on website) for more information. Pronunciation and transliteration of the character will vary. The brothers’ father was a senior political official with Sun Yat Sen’s Chinese nationalist movement and when they fled China in the early 1940’s they left their homes, property and extended family. The ethnic Chinese in Indonesia continue to be routinely persecuted on a racial and religious basis. This fact needs to be understood and applied where appropriate. Master Hiang has told me several times the number of friends and acquaintances that were killed when he was growing up in Bandung, over two dozen.

Although Master Hiang arrived in the U.S. in 1968, he continued to return to Indonesia to train with Master Liu Su Peng (Sen Pien Sow) and others after the death of Grandmaster Ie. Two of these trips lasted over a year each. He received his last promotion to seventh-level in 1978 shortly before Master Liu’s death that year.

In 2001 Master Hiang’s senior students realized that the schism in the school with Sin’s students was irreparable and they requested that we change the name of our school to the one he trained in with his grandfather. His senior students then ordered his red/black belt and agreed that in light of the historical situation and facts that he was now the legitimate grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School. (Infighting in the school in Bandung over a decade ago had caused the school to fall apart years ago.) Master Hiang never named himself the grandmaster or pressured anybody to come to this conclusion. If his senior students hadn’t acted, he would still be wearing the same threadbare belt, indicating his seventh-degree rank, he earned from his teachers almost 15 years ago. His most senior students ordered and paid for the new one.

[Lorenzo Valla]

The Lineage of Sin The’s Shaolin Karate-do.

The first point of reference is the certificate that is hanging in the main (headquarters) school of the organization headed by Sin. This certificate is described on the website as “Certificate to Grandmaster Sin The from deceased Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming” (http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/GMcertificate.jpg). An independent and professional translation company on the west coast has recently translated this document and the findings are noteworthy. Since the cost to have this certificate translated was not insignificant, I am not going to provide the entire text. If you doubt the validity or accuracy, then pay to have your own translation produced and we can proceed from there.

The document is titled, “Graduate Certificate.” It states that Sin began his studies in the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School in 1954 at the age of 10. His program of instruction lasted 10 years and the document lists when he achieved what level; the last of which was fifth level in 1963. The certificate states that Sin “minored” in the followed: Jin She Quan (Golden Snake Boxing), Quan Feng Tui (Cyclone Kick) and Tie Zhi Gong (Iron Finger Kung-fu). It goes on to state that he excelled in all of his studies, and participated in open competitions winning top honors. The certificate has the seal of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School and the seal of Ie Chang Ming, “Master of Iron Palm” and “Founder and Principal.” The document’s date is listed as 15 January 1964.

This document is hanging in his school, and posted on his website. The translation poses a number of problems to the Sin The story, most of which are obvious, but I’ll list them nevertheless.

First, there is nothing to indicate this document is naming Sin as the grandmaster. Quite the opposite, it is signed by Ie Chang Ming who is listed as founder and principal of the school.

Second, a fifth level certificate doesn’t qualify a person in the Chung Yen Shaolin system to call themselves a master or to promote people to the level of master.

Third, the dates conflict significantly with the information posted on the main Shaolin Do website about Sin’s training and background. (http://www.sinthe.com/grandmaster.html) In this version Sin (born 1944) began his training at age 7 and was given the title of grandmaster at age 25 when Master Ie retired.

Fourth, the same webpage states that, “In Shaolin Do, this body of knowledge is almost limitless, as Grandmaster Thé constantly reveals new training and forms from the 900-plus Shaolin forms he has mastered.” There is nothing on this certificate to indicate anything to support these statements.

Fifth, Sin has never taught any of the material in which he “minored.” There is a reasonably simple explanation for this situation. He has forgotten it, along with most of the other material he was taught as a young man. I realize this is a strong statement, but I think I have two pieces of information to support me. When Sin started teaching the “11 New Material” class in the early 1980s (all supposedly basic stuff for the most part), it was unbelievably chaotic. He would start a class, be gone for nearly 30 minutes, then return that day or next week with significantly changes. This was a routine experience in his other classes (Hua, Hsing I, Black Tiger, etc.) and if the SD posters to this forum are honest, they’ll confirm it. The other reason I believe Sin has lost his material and notes (if he ever had any) was found in his attempt in the early 1990s to sue a student teaching for Master Hiang for copyright infringement. Unbelievably, Sin thought he could press a legal claim for being the head of the entire Shaolin system and that he had ‘trademarked’ all the material. The suit was dismissed and never came to trial, but during a deposition, Sin’s attorney attempted to gain access to Master Hiang’s voluminous notes and videos of the material he had learned and to copy all of them. The attempt failed and neither Sin nor any of his students gained access to Master Hiang’s notes.

This information helps to clarify some of the interesting things that I, and many hundreds of other people, witnessed during the years preceding 1984. From shortly after his arrival in the U.S. and until the Sports Center opened in the late 1970s, Master Hiang had a separate school in a different section of Lexington. When the Sports Center opened, Master Hiang did not teach any of Sin’s classes and vice versa. For example, in the early 1980s when Master Hiang was in Indonesia for over a year, he had his own senior students (not Bill Leonard or Eric Smith) take over his classes for him, not Sin.

Finally, in the infamous tournament of 1983, Sin stepped out onto the floor and announced to everyone he was promoting Master Hiang to 8th degree. He had the new belt in his hands. Master Hiang refused to walk out onto the floor or to accept the belt. Hundreds of people witnessed this event.

Conclusions: Sin is not a master or grandmaster of any system other than the one he created in the mid-1960s called “Shaolin Karate-do.” I realize the angst this will cause all of the SD supporters on this forum, given their convoluted and strained attempts at validating the “Shaolin Do” name. However, I still have a patch with these exact words on it, so all of the SD groupies can put down the Kool-Aid and take a deep breath.

[kungfujunky]

that has to be the most well thought out most informative post i have read on here.

anyone have any evidence to refute it? gt? bq? kc?

[Ralphie]

I stopped by to unsubscribe to this thread, as it is pretty much retarded, and fills my junk mail addy with ridiculous alerts. Then I read Valla's indictment/manifesto. All I have to say is LO fu**ing L.

[tattooedmonk]

funny thing is that this is not the first or second time I have heard this....very interesting..to say the least......bluegrass conspiracy?!?!?!I have heard and know a little about it ....but would like to know more..just for history sake!!

[Baqualin]

that has to be the most well thought out most informative post i have read on here.

anyone have any evidence to refute it? gt? bq? kc?

I'm not going to lose any sleep tonight KFJ it's late here and I'm going to bed...just one of Hiang's senior students opening up an old wound...it will give everybody something new to talk about. I don't even want to get started on Hiang anyway....I studied under him also:cool:

[kungfujunky]

I'm not going to lose any sleep tonight KFJ it's late here and I'm going to bed...just one of Hiang's senior students opening up an old wound...it will give everybody something new to talk about. I don't even want to get started on Hiang anyway....I studied under him also:cool:

pm sent my man

[Baqualin]

funny thing is that this is not the first or second time I have heard this....very interesting..to say the least......bluegrass conspiracy?!?!?!

Have you ever heard of a thing called a Body guard;)
ELM's not a tyrant and a bully...he's a pretty good guy once you get to know him....especially to have him on your side:)
I got to go to bed before I get started:D

[BM2]

I would like to defend EML but he can do that himself without me. Will add that the book sucks.

[Golden Tiger]

anyone have any evidence to refute it? gt? bq? kc?

Yeah, I'll get back to you on it. It's too early for that much typing right now.

[Judge Pen]

funny thing is that this is not the first or second time I have heard this....very interesting..to say the least......bluegrass conspiracy?!?!?!I have heard and know a little about it ....but would like to know more..just for history sake!!

But the book; it's on Amazon.

[Royal Dragon]

This brings the question as to what are the differences between the two Brother's curriculems.

Does Hiang 'The have a more recognizable Shaolin curriculem? If so, what in his system is compareable to other well known southern Shaolin systems?

[Golden Tiger]

Several items concerning the system and Sin’s history need to be clarified and I intend to set the record straight. None of my comments should be mistaken for value judgments, except where I clearly say so.

Since most of your claims are slanted towards M. Hiang and are derogatory towards M. Sin, I have to conclude that all your statements are value judgements.


My motivation for speaking out is simple; my friends and I are getting older and the longer we wait the more damage will be done.

Perhaps you and your friends should have come to the school and voiced these concerns rather than on a public forum where at best, it would only reach 10 or 15 of the students you are so concerned about.


Although Master Hiang acquiesced to the situation for undetermined reasons, family loyalty to the eldest son probably played a part. In addition, he had just arrived from Indonesia, barely spoke English and his brother was his only link to home.

And during this time, M. Hiang never once hinted anything otherwise. He never refered to M. Ie as his grandfather, ALWAYS refered to M. Sin as the grand master and from stories I have heard lately, no longer has a link back home.


He passed away in 1968, and his grave is marked and dated. I do not understand the confusion on this issue. While Master Hiang did not broadcast this fact until the mid-1980s, he never lied about it.

There has been much confusion about this but I clearly remember when and how it came out. M. Haing returned from Indo and told EML in the car on the way back from the airport. It was not in '68, I do know that but months after the fact in '76.


Although Master Hiang arrived in the U.S. in 1968, he continued to return to Indonesia to train with Master Liu Su Peng (Sen Pien Sow) and others after the death of Grandmaster Ie. Two of these trips lasted over a year each. He received his last promotion to seventh-level in 1978 shortly before Master Liu’s death that year.


This is true, I remember it well.



His senior students then ordered his red/black belt and agreed that in light of the historical situation and facts that he was now the legitimate grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.

If M. Sin was always his senior in rank, and they both studied at the same school, how did that allow him to become the "grandmaster"?


The first point of reference is the certificate that is hanging in the main (headquarters) school of the organization headed by Sin. This certificate is described on the website as “Certificate to Grandmaster Sin The from deceased Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming”

It is a certificate to M. Sin from M. Ie. I might also add that it is my understanding that M. Hiang has the original and for some reason, won't give it back to M. Sin.

As for the translation, I used to have it but don't have it handy at the moment. But the poster is correct on most of it. I did find it odd that my translation had "minored" as "excelled" in.


First, there is nothing to indicate this document is naming Sin as the grandmaster. Quite the opposite, it is signed by Ie Chang Ming who is listed as founder and principal of the school.

Thats because, as you stated, M. Sin was not named Grand Master until '68, also in a letter that I believe that M. Hiang has. It's been discussed before.


Second, a fifth level certificate doesn’t qualify a person in the Chung Yen Shaolin system to call themselves a master or to promote people to the level of master.


Then why did M. Hiang always refer to him as Master Sin?


Third, the dates conflict significantly with the information posted on the main Shaolin Do website about Sin’s training and background. In this version Sin (born 1944) began his training at age 7 and was given the title of grandmaster at age 25 when Master Ie retired.


It has always been told that Master Sin started training with M. Ie long before he was accepted as a student. Otherwise, I have no explanation to this.


Fourth, the same webpage states that, “In Shaolin Do, this body of knowledge is almost limitless, as Grandmaster Thé constantly reveals new training and forms from the 900-plus Shaolin forms he has mastered.” There is nothing on this certificate to indicate anything to support these statements.

I know about twice as many forms that are listed on a masters certificate. This means nothing.


Fifth, Sin has never taught any of the material in which he “minored.” There is a reasonably simple explanation for this situation. He has forgotten it, along with most of the other material he was taught as a young man.

With all the material that he has taught out, including most of the forms that make up Hiangs Central Shaolin by the way, one would think that if he wanted to teach them, he would. Or heck, make them up even if he forgot them.


When Sin started teaching the “11 New Material” class in the early 1980s (all supposedly basic stuff for the most part), it was unbelievably chaotic. He would start a class, be gone for nearly 30 minutes, then return that day or next week with significantly changes.

That would happen from time to time, but having taught for many years, I am guilty that myself. And also, any change that was made was always explained, not just done differently each time. And he still does that, just so you know.


When the Sports Center opened, Master Hiang did not teach any of Sin’s classes and vice versa. For example, in the early 1980s when Master Hiang was in Indonesia for over a year, he had his own senior students (not *****) take over his classes for him, not Sin.

One of those mentioned was Hiang's senior student. And that was after the split when Hiang started teaching at the Y. And it was taught by the much less that senior students that left with Hiang. Except for the two that later went over that are strangely absent from the Central Shaolin website.


Finally, in the infamous tournament of 1983, Sin stepped out onto the floor and announced to everyone he was promoting Master Hiang to 8th degree. He had the new belt in his hands. Master Hiang refused to walk out onto the floor or to accept the belt. Hundreds of people witnessed this event.

I was there for that one. But I was there at the next one that got Hiang removed from the club. A pity actually.



When Master Hiang left the country to visit his family in Indonesia he returned to find the club closed and all of the equipment in it gone(more than half of which he owned). Sin had abandoned his students and family in Lexington (he and his wife Lucia had divorced a few years ago, his children ***** and ***** were still in the area), and traveled to California where he announced he was going to be a movie star

M. Sin left for California in '91, long after the split. You have your information way off there. Oh, and there are 3 kids, not 2.


This discourse is not meant as an indictment against the many fine and good people who study in schools affiliated with Sin The.

Of course not.

[Golden Tiger]

This brings the question as to what are the differences between the two Brother's curriculems.

Does Hiang 'The have a more recognizable Shaolin curriculem? If so, what in his system is compareable to other well known southern Shaolin systems?

Same stuff....

http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/material_list.html

[Judge Pen]

I'll ask before MK gets the chance: Does Hiang have any photos of Master Ie too? :p

[MasterKiller]

Well, you would think since the guy just died in 76 or so that you'd have some photograpghs. Especially since you have TWO of Su Kong (minus the crop of the bear).

[Judge Pen]

You would think . . . . Maybe he didn't like photos and just wanted his picture painted all the time.

[Baqualin]

Here’s my thesis and I’ll provide supporting information: Sin The was a well-trained, gifted and dedicated martial artist (quite frankly a natural athlete, incredibly powerful), who shortly after he arrived in Lexington, KY in 1964 began to exaggerate his background and ranking for undetermined reasons. When his younger brother, Hiang, arrived four years later, he was calling himself the grandmaster of a system called “Shao-lin Karate-do” and the “Sin The Karate Club.” Although Master Hiang acquiesced to the situation for undetermined reasons, family loyalty to the eldest son probably played a part. In addition, he had just arrived from Indonesia, barely spoke English and his brother was his only link to home.[/QUOTE]

You were not around then, your basing this on what you were told by M. Hiang

Although Master Hiang acquiesced to the situation for undetermined reasons, family loyalty to the eldest son probably played a part. In addition, he had just arrived from Indonesia, barely spoke English and his brother was his only link to home. [/QUOTE]

From what I hear he will not be travelling home anytime soon

There has been much confusion about this but I clearly remember when and how it came out. M. Haing returned from Indo and told EML in the car on the way back from the airport. It was not in '68, I do know that but months after the fact in '76.


Yeah I always thought this was pretty ****ty, that GMS found out about GMIe's death 2nd hand a considerable time after the fact...typical Hiang


Quote:
Although Master Hiang arrived in the U.S. in 1968, he continued to return to Indonesia to train with Master Liu Su Peng (Sen Pien Sow) and others after the death of Grandmaster Ie. Two of these trips lasted over a year each. He received his last promotion to seventh-level in 1978 shortly before Master Liu’s death that year.

True, I was in M. Hiang's breathing & meditation class that part of his studies for this promotion


Third, the dates conflict significantly with the information posted on the main Shaolin Do website about Sin’s training and background. In this version Sin (born 1944) began his training at age 7 and was given the title of grandmaster at age 25 when Master Ie retired

He also began training with another master first before he began his training with GMIe

Quote:
When Master Hiang left the country to visit his family in Indonesia he returned to find the club closed and all of the equipment in it gone(more than half of which he owned). Sin had abandoned his students and family in Lexington (he and his wife Lucia had divorced a few years ago, his children ***** and ***** were still in the area), and traveled to California where he announced he was going to be a movie star

He abandoned nobody.....like GT said your way off on the dates here.....GSM had aready remarried and divorced for the 2nd time ( I've done that).....his children were taking care of themselves by then except the youngest who lived with Lucia in Tenn......he turned the gym over to EML...was dating a very good friend of mine and I personally moved his belongings out of his appt. into storage...1991

More later...I'm at work:)

One more thing...I wonder if M. Hiang know about this:D

[tattooedmonk]

Have you ever heard of a thing called a Body guard;)
ELM's not a tyrant and a bully...he's a pretty good guy once you get to know him....especially to have him on your side:)
I got to go to bed before I get started:D yes I have and this is something I was told about ......I did not believe that he was...i have heard this from many people...I know he would be!!

[Golden Tiger]

One more thing...I wonder if M. Hiang know about this

He does now.;)

[Radhnoti]

I'll give my opinion...not that I'm even in the system, nor was I highly ranked. Just researched as much as I could about it.
I think GM Ie is the maternal grandfather. It just makes sense. It explains (beyond simply skill) why Sin would receive the GM title even though Hiang kept returning for more training. (I've also seen copies of letters granting that title and Ie refers to either himself as grandfather or Sin as grandson.) My understanding is that when GM Sin is asked who will be the next GM he laughs and says his grandson. A family tradition? It's certainly not rare in Chinese styles to pass systems through families. GT says, "It has always been told that Master Sin started training with M. Ie long before he was accepted as a student." To me, that's more data suggesting a familial relationship.
I don't think Sin has forgotten his primary styles...I think he's keeping it for the family member he intends to follow him as GM. I've seen documents indicating that GM Ie also "majored" in golden snake. I think GM Sin considers that style the "little bit you hold back" so prevailant in Chinese martial arts.

GT - "If M. Sin was always his senior in rank, and they both studied at the same school, how did that allow him to become the "grandmaster"?"

Hiang's group seems to ignore the elevation of Sin to GM...only granting that Sin was ranked 5th in the system. I've heard a million explanations for this...one was that 5th was the highest rank until Sin came to the U.S. and told Ie about people with higher ranks. That doesn't gel with Hiang being ranked 7th though. I think it's pretty clear that Ie wanted Sin to "inherit" the system, but I also think Hiang earned 7th and Sin earned 5th. So, the question becomes who is "worthy" of inheriting a system? The gifted prodigy/eldest grandson who was named GM by the previous GM, or the (by all accounts) less gifted but perhaps more tenacious/experienced younger sibling?

GT - "I did find it odd that my translation had "minored" as "excelled" in."
Mine also, and mine came from one of Hiang's students.

RD - "This brings the question as to what are the differences between the two Brother's curriculems."

GT is right, it's basically the same thing. I'm not sure if GM Sin teaches Lee tai chi, which I've heard is the tai chi they got in Indonesia...
Hiang also teaches an 18 form tai peng system and an 18 form double dagger system...which were his specialty I believe. There are a few more as well...and, obviously, SD teaches a lot that Hiang doesn't.

[Flaca]

One more thing...I wonder if M. Hiang knows about this:D

I've heard many stories about M. Hiang, but would never post them here.

Also, given that the curriculum of Hiang's school is the same as GMT's school, any condemnation of GMT's school is a condemnation of Hiang's school. It surprises me that Lorenzo would post his diatribe in this forum.

[kungfujunky]

GT is right, it's basically the same thing. I'm not sure if GM Sin teaches Lee tai chi, which I've heard is the tai chi they got in Indonesia...
Hiang also teaches an 18 form tai peng system and an 18 form double dagger system...which were his specialty I believe. There are a few more as well...and, obviously, SD teaches a lot that Hiang doesn't.

i have heard gmt talk about the dagger forms. he told me he had them all but wasnt sure when he would show them. (i asked because i wanted to see the 18 flying daggers form)

[Golden Tiger]

Hiang's group seems to ignore the elevation of Sin to GM...only granting that Sin was ranked 5th in the system.

Only after they became "Hiangs group". Every one of his upper level students very happily refered to Master Sin as GM up until the split. After the split, everything seemed to change and their memory faded a bit it seems. But I was in class with most of them every week so I do know that for a fact. Then they went their way, we went ours and all was fine and dandy.

[Judge Pen]

In 2001 Master Hiang’s senior students realized that the schism in the school with Sin’s students was irreparable and they requested that we change the name of our school to the one he trained in with his grandfather. His senior students then ordered his red/black belt and agreed that in light of the historical situation and facts that he was now the legitimate grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School. (Infighting in the school in Bandung over a decade ago had caused the school to fall apart years ago.) Master Hiang never named himself the grandmaster or pressured anybody to come to this conclusion. If his senior students hadn’t acted, he would still be wearing the same threadbare belt, indicating his seventh-degree rank, he earned from his teachers almost 15 years ago. His most senior students ordered and paid for the new one.[QUOTE]

Is this a first in Martial Arts History.....Students in charge of rank promotions:confused: Hey GT I promote you to 6th...JP,KC,KFJ,TTM....even MK(your not in SD but what the heck) what rank would you like:D

Nah, rank doesn't mean as much to me...plus I likde earning things on my own.

[Baqualin]

I've decided not to post anymore on this subject out of respect to GSM and his family....we do not bother Central Shaolin here or in Lexington and I'm not going to stoup to Lorenzo's level. My hackles got a little raised about what was said about GMS, EML and EMS by someone who has been led astray...I've probally already said to much:rolleyes:

[kungfujunky]

it is interesting. both sides have glaring holes but gmt did have seniority over hsiang.

[GeneChing]

You know, given the choice, I'd be happy to just let this thread run its own course. But when my complaint box starts to fill up again, it's more work for me. I hate that. I have plenty of other things to do other than clean up this thread. So here's the deal. I'm really busy with a bunch of other work issues right now, but I'm going to start banning forum members rather indiscrimanently for posting things that are even slightly antagonizing, just to get on top of this. Later, when my deadlines pass (probably not until after Halloween), I might sort out the banned and redeem a few. Then again, I might not bother. So there you have it. I've drawn the line in the sand. Cross it and I ban you. It's very simple.

Now let's have some peace and quiet around here.

[MasterKiller]

Yeah.

What Gene said.


even MK(your not in SD but what the heck) what rank would you like

I would like the title of Grand Poobah.

[Baqualin]

Yeah.

What Gene said.



I would like the title of Grand Poobah.

Make it so:cool:

[The Willow Sword]

A great deal just got erased from the last two pages. the bluegrass consipracy and whatnot and those interesting historical comments about eric smith and bill leonard.

i guess that was what the complaints were about that Gene was saying.

TWS

[Flaca]

Methinks you missed the concept TWS.... :confused:

[Judge Pen]

A great deal just got erased from the last two pages. the bluegrass consipracy and whatnot and those interesting historical comments about eric smith and bill leonard.

i guess that was what the complaints were about that Gene was saying.

TWS

I doubt that Gene did the erasing.

[The Willow Sword]

I knew that there was going to be some cleaning done, i just didnt notice it after i read gene's post. i did find the last post lorenzo did very innapropriate(the one that got erased). everything else was a very interesting read(to say the least).

Peace,TWS

[ricardocameron]

About Grandmaster Sin's kids....never heard much about them. Did he train them, and are they in the art? Would they probably inherit the system?

And...

Does anyone even know what the big problem(s) were between the brothers?

And ... if you look at some of the pictures posted on the sinthe.com site, you will see GMT's belt ranking. He was higher than Master Hiang, too. How big are the Chung Yen schools, anyway? Hell, if the material is the same, it's the same art. A rose by any other name....


To see lots of great pictures on Sinthe.com...
You will get (404 not found) if you click the link he gave. use this link.
http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/

it takes you to the parent directory, then click away. I have neverseen many of these. The paintings are awesome! Never knew there was a mural, too, apparently unfinished, in Lex.

[Baqualin]

I doubt that Gene did the erasing.

I second that doubt;)

[Judge Pen]

Apparently I was wrong. As a chief contributor to the train-wreck that is the "Is SD for Real" thread on KFO, I apologize to Gene for keeping him so busy.

[Golden Tiger]

As a chief contributor to the train-wreck that is the "Is SD for Real" thread on KFO, I apologize to Gene for keeping him so busy.

As do I. But I think Gene used good judgement in what he did. We can go back and forth in a civil manner without resorting to personal attacks.

Now back to the show....


PS..JP, mail

[Lorenzo Valla]

For All - I didn't erase my last post, but respect the decision of the moderator. Regardless, I believe all of the information is supported and documented.

GT

Your habit of parsing someone's statements to better reflect your position is weak-minded. If you can't argue the thesis and provide some evidence to support your position, then why bother to reply?

I spoke on this forum because that's where the discussion is.

I have photos of Master Ie's grave and stone. The names of his children and grandchildren are on it. Oh, and so is the date. When I post that will you complain to Gene and get the post deleted?

If Sin was the grandmaster in 68 why didn't he sign Master Hiang's certificate in 78 as the head of the system?

Sin's certificate posted on his webpage is the evidence he presents for being the head of the system, or can't you read what it says around the display?

There was no "Sin The Karate Club", "Shaolin Karate-do" or "Shaolin-Do" organization in Indonesia, nor does it appear on Sin's certificate.

The material listed on Sin's certificate is important....its certifies what he studied.

Sin has not taught the Golden Snake, Iron Finger or Cyclone Leg. Master Hiang has taught all 18 Bird and 18 dagger.

Sin has two children with Lucia. I didn't mention his later wives because I never personally met them.

There are plenty of photos of Master Ie. Maybe I'll post a lineup and GT will pick who is who. Maybe there will be photos of other teachers at the school in Indonesia. Can you name one other teacher of Sin's? Can you post any photos of anything?

I'll be checking on that call to Master Hiang.....

Baqualin

You don't know me, so you don't know where I was or when. 25 years was not necessarily consecutive, just an assumption on your part.

Master Hiang and his family lived in Bandung from 1993 to 1998. He travels back and forth regularly (just two years ago actually). Since his mother passed away he probably won't make as many trips.

If Sin is the head of the system and the bad Hiang didn't tell his brother their grandfather died, why didn't one of the other masters who were still active at that time in Indonesia?

Radhnoti

If there is a letter from Master Ie appointing Sin then why isn't that on display at the Gold Rush gym instead of the certificate?

Master Hiang kept returning for training to keep progressing and learning. Only in the SD camp's fantasy world does a guy learn 900 forms in the space of a decade, 40 years ago, never teach it and somehow retain it.

The translation "minored" wasn't meant to be dimunitive....it went on to say that Sin excelled in those subjects and all of his studies.

To all - Let me make a few things clear. The two schools are not the same, the material is no longer the same, and a person's character and integrity matter in their personal and professional lifes.

All of this information is merely to serve as an effort to refute the patently and documented false claims by the Sin The Karate Club to the leadership of the Shaolin community. Master Hiang does not claim to be the head of the entire Shaolin system, merely the grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School, the school founded by his grandfather, a Shaolin monk of the Fukien Shaolin Temple.

[Golden Tiger]

You seem a tad upset Larenzo.. calm down, it will be all right..:rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

GMS had 3 children with Lucia 2 boys and a girl....had no children with his 2nd wife:) The girl is in the picture with Arnold:)

[Baqualin]

If Sin is the head of the system and the bad Hiang didn't tell his brother their grandfather died, why didn't one of the other masters who were still active at that time in Indonesia?[QUOTE]

I guess they could have called him on their cell phone:rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

I was just about to ban Lorenzo Valla for implying that GT was "weak-minded" above and he PMed me an apology for being a newbie and not knowing forum etiquette. Ah, I'm a softy for a well-timed apology, but that only works once. Next time, I doubt I'll be so merciful.

I'm right up against a lot of deadlines now, so I'm itching to going back to work. Banning seems to be the most effective method to mellow out this thread at this time. Please don't PM me for the 'rules' on what might get you banned on this thread as some of you have done. My objective here is to reduce the work this thread brings to me and if I have to answer so many PMs from you all, that's bad. Superfluous PMs to me will get you banned too. If there's any question, just don't post here. Don't take the chance.

Just call me the Shaolin Do Wet Blanket.

[Baqualin]

For All - I didn't erase my last post, but respect the decision of the moderator. Regardless, I believe all of the information is supported and documented.

GT

Your habit of parsing someone's statements to better reflect your position is weak-minded. If you can't argue the thesis and provide some evidence to support your position, then why bother to reply?

I spoke on this forum because that's where the discussion is.

I have photos of Master Ie's grave and stone. The names of his children and grandchildren are on it. Oh, and so is the date. When I post that will you complain to Gene and get the post deleted?

If Sin was the grandmaster in 68 why didn't he sign Master Hiang's certificate in 78 as the head of the system?

Sin's certificate posted on his webpage is the evidence he presents for being the head of the system, or can't you read what it says around the display?

There was no "Sin The Karate Club", "Shaolin Karate-do" or "Shaolin-Do" organization in Indonesia, nor does it appear on Sin's certificate.

The material listed on Sin's certificate is important....its certifies what he studied.

Sin has not taught the Golden Snake, Iron Finger or Cyclone Leg. Master Hiang has taught all 18 Bird and 18 dagger.

Sin has two children with Lucia. I didn't mention his later wives because I never personally met them.

There are plenty of photos of Master Ie. Maybe I'll post a lineup and GT will pick who is who. Maybe there will be photos of other teachers at the school in Indonesia. Can you name one other teacher of Sin's? Can you post any photos of anything?

I'll be checking on that call to Master Hiang.....

Baqualin

You don't know me, so you don't know where I was or when. 25 years was not necessarily consecutive, just an assumption on your part.

Master Hiang and his family lived in Bandung from 1993 to 1998. He travels back and forth regularly (just two years ago actually). Since his mother passed away he probably won't make as many trips.

If Sin is the head of the system and the bad Hiang didn't tell his brother their grandfather died, why didn't one of the other masters who were still active at that time in Indonesia?

Radhnoti

If there is a letter from Master Ie appointing Sin then why isn't that on display at the Gold Rush gym instead of the certificate?

Master Hiang kept returning for training to keep progressing and learning. Only in the SD camp's fantasy world does a guy learn 900 forms in the space of a decade, 40 years ago, never teach it and somehow retain it.

The translation "minored" wasn't meant to be dimunitive....it went on to say that Sin excelled in those subjects and all of his studies.

To all - Let me make a few things clear. The two schools are not the same, the material is no longer the same, and a person's character and integrity matter in their personal and professional lifes.

All of this information is merely to serve as an effort to refute the patently and documented false claims by the Sin The Karate Club to the leadership of the Shaolin community. Master Hiang does not claim to be the head of the entire Shaolin system, merely the grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School, the school founded by his grandfather, a Shaolin monk of the Fukien Shaolin Temple.

Sounds like your trying to justify your own credibility.....I guess we do need to start a new thread is Central Shaolin for real?

[Baqualin]

Sin has not taught the Golden Snake, Iron Finger or Cyclone Leg. Master Hiang has taught all 18 Bird and 18 dagger.[QUOTE]

What's your point:confused:

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/

.... now if it is true that master sin was given this certificate and it indicates that he was at fifth level.....

.. take a look at the image of the belt ranking system again...

if you look on the right hand side it says that there are 5 black levels and is bracketed to cover all levels from 1st to 10th black ...

could it is be possible that this certificate indicates that he is the grandmaster and because we are americans translating chinese that this is just a matter of perspective as to whether he is or not the grandmaster or a fifth level blackbelt....

is it possible???

[Baqualin]

Master Hiang kept returning for training to keep progressing and learning. Only in the SD camp's fantasy world does a guy learn 900 forms in the space of a decade, 40 years ago, never teach it and somehow retain it. [QUOTE]

There's around 200 forms listed on your web site thats alot of material and I'm sure M. Hiang knows a few he hasn't taught out...go figure.

You are the one who has opened this can of worms...are you trying to start trouble between brothers again:confused:

Yes I do wonder if M. hiang knows what your doing....I don't believe he would approve....he has a nice peaceful life here now and doesn't need turmoil caused by you.

I run across his students all the time and show them the utmost respect...can you say that:)

[Radhnoti]

Radhnoti - "If there is a letter from Master Ie appointing Sin then why isn't that on display at the Gold Rush gym instead of the certificate?"

It calls GM Sin "my grandson".

Here's my a copy of what I've got...secondhand from a Hiang student I might add.

"Master Ie Chang Ming’s Letter to Sin The’ I was born in love with Wu Shu (martial arts or kung fu). In the early time, I traveled everywhere in China to learn Martial arts, and had been up to North Korea. It has been 50 years since I moved down to south. I had been through a lot of tough times. But when I looked it back, I surely had a lot of unforgettable memory. Now I am presenting you this level ten black belt with red honor strip, on behalf of all the colleagues in this gang. I wish you strictly keep all the rule, and develop the spirit of martial arts. This is what I want to say to you today. Do your best! To My Grandson and Disciple, Sin Kwan, Iron Palm Master Postscript: The three self-defending treasures, which have been with me through my living from place to place, are the Jade Smoking Stick, Drunk Man’s Crutch, and Ancient Money Shaped Son-Mother Biao (a dart like weapon). These three things look like necessaries for common travelers. Nobody will ever pay attention to them. Actually, you never know how powerful they are when you are in danger. They are my precious treasures. But I am already over seventy years old, and I decided not to use these weapons for a long time. Now, I give these to you as gifts. I wish you use them well and keep them properly. About “Biao”, you are better not to use it, because “Biao” is very easy to hurt people, and it is hard to control its direction, and also hard to get it back when you throw it out. So be very careful to it, especially that Son-Mother Baio, and never try to throw it out. Please keep in mind!!! Please!!!"

A frequent contributor to this thread has told me that he's seen one of the "precious treasures"...

[Lorenzo Valla]

I appreciate the opportunity that the Kung Fu Magazine forum has provided to put a dissenting view out for discussion. I honestly have no further comments to make on this subject or any other.

In the preceding 221 pages I have watched the loyal SD supporters stick to their guns and I do respect that. They are certainly not fair-weather friends to their teachers or fellow students. But I also took note of their claims and comments about my friend.

The effort wasn't to recruit you or change your mind; it was to make sure that other visitors (like me) who come to this forum have a more complete understanding of what is being said and claimed.

[Radhnoti]

I'd love it if you'd comment on your opinion of the validity of this letter Lorenzo. Probably not a Sin supporter as it says "grandson". Probably not a Hiang supporter as it says "10th degree". I believe that it was originally posted by a guy named "James Hall".

Anyway, I love having GM Hiang's students come around to offer counterbalance...GroundDragon comes to mind as a GREAT source of information (and a seemingly great guy) that I'd never have had access to otherwise.

GM Hiang still teaching that Su Kong was the head of the martial portion of the southern shaolin temple bolsters my belief that this is what they were taught...though not necessarily that this is the actual history. It's a fun historic puzzle to me...just enough facts and truths to keep me interested. :D

[BentMonk]

This whole debate is like an old movie on Kung Fu Theater. Unless there are some physical pieces of evidence unearthed by archaeologists in the near future, this debate is never going to end. As Rad said, there's just enough mystery to keep us all curious. I am curious, but I have really stopped caring beyond that. As I've said, everyone in SD has been nothing but good to me. I have had the honor of spending lots of informal time with GM Sin. I consider myself a decent judge of character. I do not get the feeling from GM Sin that he is anything other than what he says he is. GM Sin has taught the history of SD as it was taught to him. If he did exaggerate a bit it was likely an attempt to compete in an American marketplace that was filled with "Masters" of this art, "Grandmasters" of that art. So what? He wasn't the first to do it, and he sure as heck wasn't the last. It also doesn't make him a bad person. I think most people who study MA need to quit living in the past and realize that we are the new lineage. MA history as a whole is rampant with inconsistent legends. CLF, WC, XY, practitioners of these arts devote countless pages to debating who has "the purist" lineage, or "the most effective" set of techniques. This whole thread is just a different verse of the same song. Heck a few pages back I posted this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGIHXVeL24o&NR It is nearly identical to the "Iron Man" form SD does. The man in the interview states that his system traveled from Fukien, and if you watch the whole clip my SD friends will see a lot more similarities. I thought this gave a lot of credibility to SD's origins, and yet no one said anything. Hmm...go figure. :rolleyes:

[Radhnoti]

I have a friend in Isshinryu that does a similar kata called Sanchin as well...
Here's some comments about Sanchin from an Isshinryu site:

"Sanchin practice in regards to the muscle and breath control through dynamic tension does date back through the Chinese Martial Arts to their origin as to the teachings of Bodhidharma. This is in regards to the techniques involved yet the actual Sanchin kata as we practice it today comes from Miyagi who transformed the dynamic tension kata he learned into today's Isshinryu Sanchin Kata.
The techniques and principles behind the Sanchin kata do come from China. Possibly a Crane or Wing Chun practice. Yamaguchi did create a form of Sanchin yet so did others. If you look at some southern Chinese White Crane styles, you'll find some version of Sam Chien. Uechi Ryu has its own version and my opinion is it is probably closer to the original Chinese version using more open hand techniques. Plus, the breathing is nowhere near as "hard" or "harsh" as you will see in the Yamaguchi line of Goju Ryu. There version is much more "natural" in its breathing compared to what most of us have probably seen.

My conclusion from my sources is Sanchin is in all probability the oldest practiced kata on Okinawa and its roots come from China. The Chinese martial arts are believed to come from Bodhidharma's teachings to the Shaolin Monks. In reality Sanchin does date back to that time in one form or another and Sanchin as we practice it today comes from Miyagi through Tatsuo Soke."

I'd have commented on it, but my dial up connection (I live too far out in the country for any reasonable high speed connection) makes it unlikely I'll ever view a video online. :D

[The Willow Sword]

That was a great vid on okinawa karate.
TWS

[BentMonk]

Yes it was, thank you. lol You know darn good and well I was using that as an example that SD is not the only art with Chinese origins that doesn't have the outer trappings that most associate with TCMA. BTW, I saw your post several pages back concerning what you've been going through and your posting demeanor. If it helps I've been there too, and it does get better. It still sucks while you're in the shiat, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. No hard feelings at all. I wish you the best man. Peace.

[Judge Pen]

Radhnoti - "If there is a letter from Master Ie appointing Sin then why isn't that on display at the Gold Rush gym instead of the certificate?"

It calls GM Sin "my grandson".

Here's my a copy of what I've got...secondhand from a Hiang student I might add.

"Master Ie Chang Ming’s Letter to Sin The’ I was born in love with Wu Shu (martial arts or kung fu). In the early time, I traveled everywhere in China to learn Martial arts, and had been up to North Korea. It has been 50 years since I moved down to south. I had been through a lot of tough times. But when I looked it back, I surely had a lot of unforgettable memory. Now I am presenting you this level ten black belt with red honor strip, on behalf of all the colleagues in this gang. I wish you strictly keep all the rule, and develop the spirit of martial arts. This is what I want to say to you today. Do your best! To My Grandson and Disciple, Sin Kwan, Iron Palm Master Postscript: The three self-defending treasures, which have been with me through my living from place to place, are the Jade Smoking Stick, Drunk Man’s Crutch, and Ancient Money Shaped Son-Mother Biao (a dart like weapon). These three things look like necessaries for common travelers. Nobody will ever pay attention to them. Actually, you never know how powerful they are when you are in danger. They are my precious treasures. But I am already over seventy years old, and I decided not to use these weapons for a long time. Now, I give these to you as gifts. I wish you use them well and keep them properly. About “Biao”, you are better not to use it, because “Biao” is very easy to hurt people, and it is hard to control its direction, and also hard to get it back when you throw it out. So be very careful to it, especially that Son-Mother Baio, and never try to throw it out. Please keep in mind!!! Please!!!"

A frequent contributor to this thread has told me that he's seen one of the "precious treasures"...


Yes I've seen the Jade pipe, but only briefly.

"Sanchin practice in regards to the muscle and breath control through dynamic tension does date back through the Chinese Martial Arts to their origin as to the teachings of Bodhidharma. This is in regards to the techniques involved yet the actual Sanchin kata as we practice it today comes from Miyagi who transformed the dynamic tension kata he learned into today's Isshinryu Sanchin Kata.
The techniques and principles behind the Sanchin kata do come from China. Possibly a Crane or Wing Chun practice. Yamaguchi did create a form of Sanchin yet so did others. If you look at some southern Chinese White Crane styles, you'll find some version of Sam Chien. Uechi Ryu has its own version and my opinion is it is probably closer to the original Chinese version using more open hand techniques. Plus, the breathing is nowhere near as "hard" or "harsh" as you will see in the Yamaguchi line of Goju Ryu. There version is much more "natural" in its breathing compared to what most of us have probably seen."

I always thought it was interesting that our version of San Njie was taught at the same time as the withe crane material we have. Incidently, I've seen video from a kung tao site that mentions one of the collegues in their lineage that teaches material very similar to our white crane. MS2 actually pointed it out to me. I don't think they have a good reputation for putting out fighters, but their forms look very similar.

[Golden Tiger]

Yes I've seen the Jade pipe, but only briefly.


Its with him at all times. Pretty cool in my opinion.:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

.... now if it is true that master sin was given this certificate and it indicates that he was at fifth level.....

.. take a look at the image of the belt ranking system again...

if you look on the right hand side it says that there are 5 black levels and is bracketed to cover all levels from 1st to 10th black ...

could it is be possible that this certificate indicates that he is the grandmaster and because we are americans translating chinese that this is just a matter of perspective as to whether he is or not the grandmaster or a fifth level blackbelt....

is it possible???for emphasis

[Radhnoti]

Sorry to drag you in there JP. I only meant to reference the fact that certain parts of the letter are verifiably true.

[Radhnoti]

TTM, I've read elsewhere that 5 blackbelt ranks were all they had in Indonesia. However, I think that reasoning is hurt by Hiang's belt level being 7th. There COULD be an argument made that when GM Sin was elevated they changed the system rankings in Indonesia to reflect that, but that seems a bit weak as well.
Just my opinion, worth no more than paid for.

[Citong Shifu]

I have a friend in Isshinryu that does a similar kata called Sanchin as well...
Here's some comments about Sanchin from an Isshinryu site:

"Sanchin practice in regards to the muscle and breath control through dynamic tension does date back through the Chinese Martial Arts to their origin as to the teachings of Bodhidharma. This is in regards to the techniques involved yet the actual Sanchin kata as we practice it today comes from Miyagi who transformed the dynamic tension kata he learned into today's Isshinryu Sanchin Kata.
The techniques and principles behind the Sanchin kata do come from China. Possibly a Crane or Wing Chun practice. Yamaguchi did create a form of Sanchin yet so did others. If you look at some southern Chinese White Crane styles, you'll find some version of Sam Chien. Uechi Ryu has its own version and my opinion is it is probably closer to the original Chinese version using more open hand techniques. Plus, the breathing is nowhere near as "hard" or "harsh" as you will see in the Yamaguchi line of Goju Ryu. There version is much more "natural" in its breathing compared to what most of us have probably seen.

My conclusion from my sources is Sanchin is in all probability the oldest practiced kata on Okinawa and its roots come from China. The Chinese martial arts are believed to come from Bodhidharma's teachings to the Shaolin Monks. In reality Sanchin does date back to that time in one form or another and Sanchin as we practice it today comes from Miyagi through Tatsuo Soke."

I'd have commented on it, but my dial up connection (I live too far out in the country for any reasonable high speed connection) makes it unlikely I'll ever view a video online. :D


The Sanchin form was derived from the Shaolin Louhan Sanzan (triple batte or stance) Quan set. Okinawan karate masters traveled to Southern Shaolin Temple where they trained Shaolin kungfu extensively.. After returning home to Okinawa, the form we're translated and formulated into Okinawan karate....

Sanzan or Sanchin both deal with the ultimate in martial arts power training.. These sets not only train power, but breath control, whole body stabilization ( through isometric resistance trining), Power & Qi release, & Shaolin nei gong... These sets are known as treasures. Definitely a powerful set, in many ways...

How many people here trains a Sanzan set or variation in their style.... Curious to see how common this set is.... Sanchin is very common to all Okinawan styles, but what I understand about Shaolin Sanzan is not so common anymore... well, let know if you guys have a version of this Chinese form....

[kungfujunky]

sd/csc has a similar set....

called san he chien (sp?)

works on dynamic tension breathing and rooting power as well as iron shirt training

[Golden Tiger]

Yes, we train in Iron Man/ San Ie begining about a year in or so. To most, it is a isometric /breathing control form with an explosive release at the end. There is also a chi se component but very few practice it any more.

[chud]

...shortly after he arrived in Lexington, KY in 1964 began to exaggerate his background and ranking for undetermined reasons. When his younger brother, Hiang, arrived four years later, he was calling himself the grandmaster of a system called “Shao-lin Karate-do” and the “Sin The Karate Club.”

This statement really raises an important issue IMO. I feel that a big reason for Shaolin-Do's current bad reputation is the way in which it has presented itself. Hiang's school has the name Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts, the name which the family apparently gave it. It is an interesting but innocuous name that came from their family and wouldn't raise any eyebrows. Sin The' however chose to call his school "Shaolin-Do", a name which seems contradictory (chinese/japanese), and frankly has a corny 'marketing' ring to it.
Secondly, Hiang's web site doesn't have all of the marketing buzzwords about being true and authentic shaolin; it just gives their history in a matter-of-fact way without going out of its way to make claims of authenticity or superiority.
The impression that you get with Hiang's school is that it has indo/chinese roots, bears his family name, and they do their own thing. Sin The's school gives off an aura of cheesy marketing; btw, I'm not blaming him for trying to push his school, but I think his approach backfired.
I suspect that if Shaolin Do took its original name and just did its own thing without all the hype it wouldn't be a big deal.

[tattooedmonk]

TTM, I've read elsewhere that 5 blackbelt ranks were all they had in Indonesia. However, I think that reasoning is hurt by Hiang's belt level being 7th. There COULD be an argument made that when GM Sin was elevated they changed the system rankings in Indonesia to reflect that, but that seems a bit weak as well.
Just my opinion, worth no more than paid for.this is my point... if you look at the picture of the ranking sytsem it indicates that there are 5 levels of black belt( some might view this as meaning 5th black) starting at 1-4 being 1st level....5 being 2nd level...6 being 3rd level....7 being 4th level....8-10 being 5th level... do you see what I am saying??

....and remember that in much of the literature about SD that SinThe' was given the Honorary Title..this can also be something to think about many people get honorary degrees of all sorts all the time...

as amatter of fact Master Sin Has promoted many people to honorary positions based just on time and effort( kungfu or hard work) alone...imagine that..

and it was not even based on whether they had all the rank material or not...

just the way it should be in my opinion

[tattooedmonk]

This statement really raises an important issue IMO. I feel that a big reason for Shaolin-Do's current bad reputation is the way in which it has presented itself. Hiang's school has the name Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts, the name which the family apparently gave it. It is an interesting but innocuous name that came from their family and wouldn't raise any eyebrows. Sin The' however chose to call his school "Shaolin-Do", a name which seems contradictory (chinese/japanese), and frankly has a corny 'marketing' ring to it.
Secondly, Hiang's web site doesn't have all of the marketing buzzwords about being true and authentic shaolin; it just gives their history in a matter-of-fact way without going out of its way to make claims of authenticity or superiority.
The impression that you get with Hiang's school is that it has indo/chinese roots, bears his family name, and they do their own thing. Sin The's school gives off an aura of cheesy marketing; btw, I'm not blaming him for trying to push his school, but I think his approach backfired.
I suspect that if Shaolin Do took its original name and just did its own thing without all the hype it wouldn't be a big deal.well a lot of people take things out of context....for example....when Sin The is refered to as the grandmaster of Shaolin..it should just be known that it implies Shaolin Do and not all of Shaolin.

......He is not the Grandmaster of the temple or of any other form or branch of Shaolin......this should be obvious..but a few people take it the wrong way because of their distorted perception...

The Art was known as Shaolin Tao originally.... from what I was told ....

many people seem to not understand the Chinese / Japanese thing.....and seem to be fixated on something so non intrinsic to the debate....

Jeet kune Do is a chinese concept art based on it's founder Bruce Lee and no one seems to be bothered by it..

Do and Tao mean the same exact thing ..the Japanese language is based on the Chinese language ..the characters are the same ..the definitions are the same...it is only the dialect that is different...

tell me why all this superficial sh*t matters??

and if it has back fired why is SD one of the most recognized and popular schools teaching Shaolin and has 100+ schools/ programs across the united States??

Bad press is better than no press!!!

[chud]

well a lot of people take things out of context....for example....when Sin The is refered to as the grandmaster of Shaolin..it should just be known that it implies Shaolin Do and not all of Shaolin.

......He is not the Grandmaster of the temple or of any other form or branch of Shaolin......this should be obvious..but a few people take it the wrong way because of their distorted perception...

Understood, and for the record I'd just like to say that I don't have anything against Shaolin-Do, or GM Sin; I just think that these points ought to be looked at by the organization, for the sake of its students. Maybe someone with some seniority in the system can make that happen.


The Art was known as Shaolin Tao originally.... from what I was told ....

That name makes more sense to me, and I suspect it also would to others in the CMA community. But better yet, why not leave the original family name as Sin The's brother did?


many people seem to not understand the Chinese / Japanese thing.....and seem to be fixated on something so non intrinsic to the debate....

Jeet kune Do is a chinese concept art based on it's founder Bruce Lee and no one seems to be bothered by it..

Do and Tao mean the same exact thing ..the Japanese language is based on the Chinese language ..the characters are the same ..the definitions are the same...it is only the dialect that is different...

tell me why all this superficial sh*t matters??

and if it has back fired why is SD one of the most recognized and popular schools teaching Shaolin and has 100+ schools/ programs across the united States??

Bad press is better than no press!!!

I don't deny that SD has a lot of schools and a lot of good people in the system, but it is obvious that it has a bad rep in the CMA community; I believe this is mainly because of the way it has been presented and marketed.

[JuJitsuJoe]

You know if most of the CMA people went to Bullshido they would jump all over you about your style being crap and nothing you say or do would change their minds.
It seems to be that way with Shaolin-Do here.

I have almost never met a Shaolin-Do student who was a black Belt/Sash who was rude and never one that wasnt out of shape.

The thing is they are happy with their Art and make positive changes in alot of people. Why cant you bashers just let them be? They are not doing anything to anyone are they?
To be attacked as offen as they are on here and still be as friendly as they are is a statement on their art.
Just a thought.:)

[Baqualin]

You know if most of the CMA people went to Bullshido they would jump all over you about your style being crap and nothing you say or do would change their minds.
It seems to be that way with Shaolin-Do here.

I have almost never met a Shaolin-Do student who was a black Belt/Sash who was rude and never one that wasnt out of shape.

The thing is they are happy with their Art and make positive changes in alot of people. Why cant you bashers just let them be? They are not doing anything to anyone are they?
To be attacked as offen as they are on here and still be as friendly as they are is a statement on their art.
Just a thought.:)

That's the way GMS has always taught us..thanks for your compliment....we love jujitsu too the're alot of us learning it to compliment our studies

[Judge Pen]

Sorry to drag you in there JP. I only meant to reference the fact that certain parts of the letter are verifiably true.


You didn't. I jumped in a volunteered that information... I think that the letter is probably accurate in all respects, but that's just my conjecture. It also depends on how you translate the "grandson" reference. Is it familial or martial (in teacher to student). I suppose it depends on the characters and the context.

[Judge Pen]

The Sanchin form was derived from the Shaolin Louhan Sanzan (triple batte or stance) Quan set. Okinawan karate masters traveled to Southern Shaolin Temple where they trained Shaolin kungfu extensively.. After returning home to Okinawa, the form we're translated and formulated into Okinawan karate....

Sanzan or Sanchin both deal with the ultimate in martial arts power training.. These sets not only train power, but breath control, whole body stabilization ( through isometric resistance trining), Power & Qi release, & Shaolin nei gong... These sets are known as treasures. Definitely a powerful set, in many ways...

How many people here trains a Sanzan set or variation in their style.... Curious to see how common this set is.... Sanchin is very common to all Okinawan styles, but what I understand about Shaolin Sanzan is not so common anymore... well, let know if you guys have a version of this Chinese form....

We do--I've promised Vash a long time ago that I would tape myself doing our version. I need to keep that promise.

[JuJitsuJoe]

That's the way GMS has always taught us..thanks for your compliment....we love jujitsu too the're alot of us learning it to compliment our studies

I had heard that about a few schools. Living here in Ky Ive been exposed to manny Shaolin-Do students and masters. Not took the first class of it but im thinking about giving them a try along with my Jitsu.

[Judge Pen]

You know if most of the CMA people went to Bullshido they would jump all over you about your style being crap and nothing you say or do would change their minds.
It seems to be that way with Shaolin-Do here.

I have almost never met a Shaolin-Do student who was a black Belt/Sash who was rude and never one that wasnt out of shape.

The thing is they are happy with their Art and make positive changes in alot of people. Why cant you bashers just let them be? They are not doing anything to anyone are they?
To be attacked as offen as they are on here and still be as friendly as they are is a statement on their art.
Just a thought.:)

Thanks. I know you have had plenty of opportunity to meet SD people too. It seems that every town in Eastern Kentucky have a school and there are many students running aournd up there.

[Judge Pen]

I had heard that about a few schools. Living here in Ky Ive been exposed to manny Shaolin-Do students and masters. Not took the first class of it but im thinking about giving them a try along with my Jitsu.

Shhhhh. You don't want to lose credibilty around here.

[JuJitsuJoe]

Heh, I think I pretty much figured out that there is always going to be someone who dont aprove of something I do. The fact that im happy with myself and that I do the best I can with what I have is more than enoughf for me.

I got friends that take kenpo, hapkido, BJJ, Ng Family Kung Fu, and yes Shaolin-Do. We all get along pretty well too. I think that the distance and unpersonal nature of a message board makes people come off alot less friendly than they ever would in real life to each other.

Hey Judgepen do you know David Hay? He is one of our black belts who use to train in Shaolin-Do about the same time and place as you. He is a Ky State Trooper now.

[Judge Pen]

Hey Judgepen do you know David Hay? He is one of our black belts who use to train in Shaolin-Do about the same time and place as you. He is a Ky State Trooper now.

Yes I think I do. Did he go to Clintwood high school in Virginia? If so, tell him I said hello.

[Radhnoti]

JP - "It also depends on how you translate the "grandson" reference. Is it familial or martial (in teacher to student)."

I'd considered that...but wouldn't "grandson" be one generation removed if it were speaking of teacher to student? GM Ie would have used "son" since GM Sin was his direct student, I've been told. Plus it says "To My Grandson and Disciple"...I think if that's inaccurate it wouldn't be a mistranslation but an insertion of a non-existant word. Again, not much incentive for Hiang's group to put in "grandson" when the same letter verifies inheritance of legit leadership.

I wonder how in the world some of these things get out if it contradicts the official view of both sides... :confused:

[Golden Tiger]

I wonder how in the world some of these things get out if it contradicts the official view of both sides...

The person that you mentioned sent you the translation used to be a big time SD supporter. Got his first black from M. Sin. Then he moved over to the other side and became a rabid hater of all that is SD. And on the one hand, I "proves" that M. Hiang is the other grand son, so perhaps thats the reason.

I have always wondered why they have kept the letter and not given it to the rightful person that it belongs to, along with a lot of other things that were "misplaced" after the split. Not that it really matters, just wondering.

As to the translation, in my opinion, it could go either way. I have had things translated before and when the same thing was looked at by two different people, I always got minor differences. Perhaps this is the case.

Something else that puzzled me is something Lorenzo said. That "they" paid big money for a translation of Master Sin's certificate, and they have it why? , from a company on the west coast. Why didn't Hiang just translate it? Or heck, someone at one of the buffets in town (thats where I get most of mine done). I mean its not like it was one of the dead sea scrolls. Its just a certificate written in chinese.

Oh well, the mystery shall remain...

[NastyHaggis]

I'm not saying anyone here is trying to protray GM Sin and GM Hiang as having a fued or anything, but just an opinion here (and my opinion doesn't mean squat, so ignore this if you want to) however...

Out of respect, I think we should be careful about how we word things in regards to GM Sin and GM Hiang's relationship. According to my instructor, who is a close friend and LONGTIME student of GM Sin (as in he's a Shaolin Elder Master, but not in the Shaolin-Do Association and GM Sin stays at his house every time he's in town), the two brothers did have troubles in the past but have since patched things up. Regardless of what their respective organizations and students think about each other, the brothers are in good, healthy relations with each other now. Just for the record. I just wanted to make sure we weren't trying to stir something up that didn't exist.

...Now back to the regularly scheduled retarded squabbling over details that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things...

[tattooedmonk]

I'm not saying anyone here is trying to protray GM Sin and GM Hiang as having a fued or anything, but just an opinion here (and my opinion doesn't mean squat, so ignore this if you want to) however...

Out of respect, I think we should be careful about how we word things in regards to GM Sin and GM Hiang's relationship. According to my instructor, who is a close friend and LONGTIME student of GM Sin (as in he's a Shaolin Elder Master, but not in the Shaolin-Do Association and GM Sin stays at his house every time he's in town), the two brothers did have troubles in the past but have since patched things up. Regardless of what their respective organizations and students think about each other, the brothers are in good, healthy relations with each other now. Just for the record. I just wanted to make sure we weren't trying to stir something up that didn't exist.

...Now back to the regularly scheduled retarded squabbling over details that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things...this is what master sin told me a few years back.....

oh and you know this was to stir up the pot a little more...

and now back to the retarded squabbling that does not really matter......

[kungfujunky]

...Now back to the regularly scheduled retarded squabbling over details that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things...



i couldnt agree more

with the info that has surfaced i think it has answered 95% of all the questions

[Flaca]

I'm not saying anyone here is trying to protray GM Sin and GM Hiang as having a fued or anything, but just an opinion here (and my opinion doesn't mean squat, so ignore this if you want to) however...

Out of respect, I think we should be careful about how we word things in regards to GM Sin and GM Hiang's relationship. According to my instructor, who is a close friend and LONGTIME student of GM Sin (as in he's a Shaolin Elder Master, but not in the Shaolin-Do Association and GM Sin stays at his house every time he's in town), the two brothers did have troubles in the past but have since patched things up. Regardless of what their respective organizations and students think about each other, the brothers are in good, healthy relations with each other now. Just for the record. I just wanted to make sure we weren't trying to stir something up that didn't exist....
I second that; sibling rivalry shouldn't be confused with lack of family loyalty... publicly dissing either brother will be frowned upon.
I've noticed that SD'ers have maintained respect for each other - a united front if you will - although we no longer attend the same tournaments. For my part, that is extremely regretful, as I miss seeing the other students and masters at the tournaments. JP's folks for example.


...Now back to the regularly scheduled retarded squabbling over details that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things...
Do we have to?:o

[Radhnoti]

GT - "Something else that puzzled me is something Lorenzo said. That "they" paid big money for a translation of Master Sin's certificate, and they have it why? , from a company on the west coast. Why didn't Hiang just translate it?"

I noticed that as well. One possibility it implies is that "they" don't have a native speaker available or at least that "they" aren't supported in efforts to research the documentation. Another possibility is that there was some disagreement/doubt over the correct translation and a third party had to be brought in to verify.
I know everyone in martial arts says, "Wow, my style really has some political situations!", but the The' schools are...really surprising with the depth and breadth.

[Baqualin]

I'm not saying anyone here is trying to protray GM Sin and GM Hiang as having a fued or anything, but just an opinion here (and my opinion doesn't mean squat, so ignore this if you want to) however...

Out of respect, I think we should be careful about how we word things in regards to GM Sin and GM Hiang's relationship. According to my instructor, who is a close friend and LONGTIME student of GM Sin (as in he's a Shaolin Elder Master, but not in the Shaolin-Do Association and GM Sin stays at his house every time he's in town), the two brothers did have troubles in the past but have since patched things up. Regardless of what their respective organizations and students think about each other, the brothers are in good, healthy relations with each other now. Just for the record. I just wanted to make sure we weren't trying to stir something up that didn't exist.

...Now back to the regularly scheduled retarded squabbling over details that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things...

I think we've been very respectful of both...... it was one of Hiangs students that came on here trying to stir up trouble not SD or CSC and we still didn't lose our respect even though Lorenzo did...he also mention that he has taken note on things said about his friend(M.Hiang) I'm not aware of anywhere on this thread that M. Hiang or their school has been mention in anyway by us, only by trolls trying to stir up their regular s**t...I'm very proud of all SD & CSC people and their attitudes....this is what makes Shaolin Do for real:)

[Lorenzo Valla]

Regarding the translation of Sin's certificate:

I paid for the service, not they.

It wasn't big money, at least not to me. That said, I'm not giving any of my money to SD.

The purpose of a third-party translation is so that it can be unbiased. Anyone who wants to make a supportable position in a contentious argument like this would do the same thing.

I could tell you had the "letter" translated by a waiter at a Chinese restaurant it shows. A professional version would probably make a little more sense and might help (or hurt) your position. A professional would alleviate your questions about the 'grandson' part, for example.

I hope one day you can post the letter, in Chinese of course.

Another assumption you've made is that my purpose was to inflame a sibling rivalry. Just because I've taken a position doesn't mean that its Master Hiang's. By comparison is Sin going to vouch for everything each of you has said on this forum? I'm perfectly capable of looking at the information, evaluating it and forming a position, all without someone spoonfeeding it to me.

The most interesting part of this exchange has been complete silence over my main points. System name, the "grandmaster" certificate, material taught, etc.

At some point your club is going to have to deal with this issue: There is nothing to support Sin's claim except his word. If that's all you need, then fine. Stick with that argument, its respectable and perfectly acceptable. But, to see the same people on the forum twist and turn to accommodate each new revelation that doesn't support the grandmaster theory is hard to watch.

Remember, what I post on here may be a position shared by others, but in the end its mine alone to defend, support or change.

[godzillakungfu]

Wow, you are very insulting.

Funny how a chinese waiter is less knowledgable then your professional service. I find that extremely insulting because, many of my Asian freinds were waiters and have college degrees.

So, that "waiter" may actually be more adept then your paid for service.

Funny thing is every foreign language teacher I have had says the native speakers are much better for translation. They know the slang and different meanings then the professionals.

I think you spent a large sum of money because, you kept going from translator to translator until someone said what you wanted to hear.

[Lorenzo Valla]

The only thing insulting on this forum is the level of intellectual discourse.

A professional translator is just that. I submitted the results from the first service I used and I challenge you to do the same. The name of the company I used was Lingua Solutions. The translator was native Chinese.

Native speakers are absolutely the best people to get, but they must also be professionally fluent in the language they are translating into, in this case English.

If I wanted a professional translation of a Spanish document for use in research, I would not seek out a waiter at a Mexican restaurant. Not because they aren't capable, but because their work can't be supported. I go to Mexican restaurants to eat. I seek out trained, qualifed linguists for translations.

[godzillakungfu]

Obviously you missed the point. Pull up your shorts your bigotry is showing.

Oh and I see what you are doing. Gene said watch the insults. You are trying to say the board is dumb so you can get banned to prove your point.

[NastyHaggis]

Just to clarify, the very first thing I said in my previous post was:


"I'm not saying anyone here is trying to portray GM Sin and GM Hiang as having a fued or anything, but just an opinion here (and my opinion doesn't mean squat, so ignore this if you want to) however..."

So, I'm NOT insinuating that anyone here is trying to start a family fued, nor did I ever intend to. I came right out of the gate clarifying that was not the intent of my post. A slow, careful reading of each post will assure a greater chance that no one is misunderstood and alleviate many tempers I would wager.

I am just encouraging us to continue to be friendly, informative, and to withhold from any personal attacks on each other. Assumptions about personal relationships are advised against, while informed, logical, discussions about issues that are verifiable are recommended. Intelligent, cooperative discussion is very much appreciated, whether or not two or more participants are in agreement with each other.

[Golden Tiger]

At the risk of being banned, I will reply, trying not to pick and choose as I was accused of.


Regarding the translation of Sin's certificate:

I paid for the service, not they.

It wasn't big money, at least not to me. That said, I'm not giving any of my money to SD.


In the first post, you said:"Since the cost to have this certificate translated was not insignificant, I am not going to provide the entire text. " Either it was not insignificant (ie. significant) or is wasnt big money. Which was it? And if the job was already paid for, how would telling all be any more or less expensive that telling a line or two?



The purpose of a third-party translation is so that it can be unbiased. Anyone who wants to make a supportable position in a contentious argument like this would do the same thing.

Please provide a scanned translation of the document. Since it is obvious that any point you make is extremely biased, only a copy of the transcript will convince me otherwise. To make a contentious argument based on evidence, you have to provide said evidnece to back up your claim.



I could tell you had the "letter" translated by a waiter at a Chinese restaurant it shows. A professional version would probably make a little more sense and might help (or hurt) your position. A professional would alleviate your questions about the 'grandson' part, for example.

You have two people confused my friend. I was talking about using the lowely lady at the buffet as a translator but it was Rad that posted the letter, translated by the #1 student of the ex #1 student of M. Hiang.


I hope one day you can post the letter, in Chinese of course.

Since the letter is in the posession of someone besides the rightful owner, I doubt that will happen.



Another assumption you've made is that my purpose was to inflame a sibling rivalry. Just because I've taken a position doesn't mean that its Master Hiang's. By comparison is Sin going to vouch for everything each of you has said on this forum? I'm perfectly capable of looking at the information, evaluating it and forming a position, all without someone spoonfeeding it to me.


Its obvious that you are now or were a student of M. Hiang's. As far as flaming the fire, there is none to flame. But that said, you have attacked the credibility of M. Hiangs elder brother, two senior students in SD and you think that if it got back to them, it wouldn't start some crap??? Being as in the know as you are, you have to know that there is no love lost on either side.



The most interesting part of this exchange has been complete silence over my main points. System name, the "grandmaster" certificate, material taught, etc.

Read post 1 thru what ever this one is...its there, all of it.



At some point your club is going to have to deal with this issue: There is nothing to support Sin's claim except his word. If that's all you need, then fine. Stick with that argument, its respectable and perfectly acceptable. But, to see the same people on the forum twist and turn to accommodate each new revelation that doesn't support the grandmaster theory is hard to watch.


Seeing the SD and Sin The has been going strong for 40 some odd years, I'll place my bets on M. Sin.


Remember, what I post on here may be a position shared by others, but in the end its mine alone to defend, support or change.

Biting my tongue on this one.

[Golden Tiger]

On a happier note...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY Baqualin!

They say you don't get older, you only get better.....guess you proved them wrong!:D

[Flaca]

Another assumption you've made is that my purpose was to inflame a sibling rivalry. Just because I've taken a position doesn't mean that its Master Hiang's. By comparison is Sin going to vouch for everything each of you has said on this forum? I'm perfectly capable of looking at the information, evaluating it and forming a position, all without someone spoonfeeding it to me..
Assumption? I think your purpose was to question M Sin's integrity, and M Hiang probably would not appreciate it.



The most interesting part of this exchange has been complete silence over my main points. System name, the "grandmaster" certificate, material taught, etc.

At some point your club is going to have to deal with this issue: There is nothing to support Sin's claim except his word. If that's all you need, then fine. Stick with that argument, its respectable and perfectly acceptable. But, to see the same people on the forum twist and turn to accommodate each new revelation that doesn't support the grandmaster theory is hard to watch.

Remember, what I post on here may be a position shared by others, but in the end its mine alone to defend, support or change.
Grandmaster, Club Name, A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

I don't understand why you think we have anything to deal with. We do not question M Sin's word, why should we? We also don't spend class time worrying about other clubs, and it's strange to have 220 pages of other clubs worrying about the integrity of SD.

I'm gonna go roll my shins and hit a post. Now that's worth spending class time on. :D Eau d'A&B anyone?

[godzillakungfu]

I'm gonna go roll my shins and hit a post. Now that's worth spending class time on. :D Eau d'A&B anyone?

Hey you are going to make some of the westerners jealous. We still use ZG for iron bone training.:mad:

Although, I do have A&B tee hee.:eek:

No, I do not have the recipe, put the weapons down.:)

[tattooedmonk]

to Baqualin...hope you are having a great day..... !!!!

[Baqualin]

On a happier note...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY Baqualin!

They say you don't get older, you only get better.....guess you proved them wrong!:D

Thank You very much GT.......I have to say my 37 yr. old girl friend thinks I'm getting better (got a little Rudy in my blood) ;)

[Baqualin]

Hey you are going to make some of the westerners jealous. We still use ZG for iron bone training.:mad:

Although, I do have A&B tee hee.:eek:

No, I do not have the recipe, put the weapons down.:)

Don't forget C:)

[tattooedmonk]

a friend of mine from china says that it might mean: great ( Tai ),quiet(Djin), master( Su Kong)...

*****oh if anyone want some herbal remedies or internal and external elixers for iron bone training let me know through pm ...****

[Baqualin]

to Baqualin...hope you are having a great day..... !!!!

Thank you also TTM...it's really been fun getting to know you guys in the short time I've been on here...hopfully one day we can meet each other on less defensive grounds.:D

[Golden Tiger]

a friend of mine from china says that it might mean: great ( Tai ),quiet(Djin), master( Su Kong)...

Your friend is probably wrong. Send to a professional silly man!:rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

Regarding the translation of Sin's certificate:

I paid for the service, not they.

It wasn't big money, at least not to me. That said, I'm not giving any of my money to SD.

The purpose of a third-party translation is so that it can be unbiased. Anyone who wants to make a supportable position in a contentious argument like this would do the same thing.

I could tell you had the "letter" translated by a waiter at a Chinese restaurant it shows. A professional version would probably make a little more sense and might help (or hurt) your position. A professional would alleviate your questions about the 'grandson' part, for example.

I hope one day you can post the letter, in Chinese of course.

Another assumption you've made is that my purpose was to inflame a sibling rivalry. Just because I've taken a position doesn't mean that its Master Hiang's. By comparison is Sin going to vouch for everything each of you has said on this forum? I'm perfectly capable of looking at the information, evaluating it and forming a position, all without someone spoonfeeding it to me.

The most interesting part of this exchange has been complete silence over my main points. System name, the "grandmaster" certificate, material taught, etc.

At some point your club is going to have to deal with this issue: There is nothing to support Sin's claim except his word. If that's all you need, then fine. Stick with that argument, its respectable and perfectly acceptable. But, to see the same people on the forum twist and turn to accommodate each new revelation that doesn't support the grandmaster theory is hard to watch.

Remember, what I post on here may be a position shared by others, but in the end its mine alone to defend, support or change.

Well it's my birthday so I'm not going to say to much today, but I must inform you that you have Insulted and Dishonored GM Su Kong, GMIe, GMSin, M. Hiang, their colleagues and anybody else who is studing this lineage that you claim to be a part of:o

One more thing....using material taught as one of your main points makes absolutely no sense what so ever....apparently you have no idea what we have been taught on the other side....your right we didn't discuss that one....didn't have to:p

Please remember we were there and we still are!
Will not talk about M. Hiang...that would be disrespectful of OUR lineage:cool:

[Baqualin]

Hope I didn't just get banned on my birthday:eek:

[Baqualin]

But, to see the same people on the forum twist and turn to accommodate each new revelation that doesn't support the grandmaster theory is hard to watch. [QUOTE]


Go ahead and start a new thread and throw your theory out there...the sharks on these forums are probally tired of SD meat anyway.:)

[Lorenzo Valla]

First of all I just want to say that my saying "you" on my posts wasn't directed at any single person, just didn't split things up.

At the end of your comments to me I took note of what I think is a perfectly reasonable and respectable position. Being involved in the club with Sin for 40 years is good enough. I couldn't agree more and I'm happy for all of you.

As far as the translation goes, the service was Lingua Solutions. You can find them on the internet with any search engine. That's how I did it. The price was reasonable to me, but not free and I'm not going to give it away. I would encourage you to do the same. They should charge you less than they did me because its already completed. The service is confidential, but you can mention that you know it was recently done, etc...

I guess I'm having a hard time following what's going on with you guys. On this forum you have stated who/what you think your club is about. You've never posted a single piece of verifiable evidence to support it. Yet, according to your reply, I must post all of my evidence otherwise my argument is no good. By the way I do recognize my bias, do you recognize your own? I've told you how/where to go to get the translation, so please go ahead. Anecdotes, hearsay, a student of a student said 10 years ago, Sin says, Bill says, none of that makes up a well-constructed logical argument. Ideally you would bring your proof/evidence, I would bring mine and we could debate. I've given you a preview of a small part of mine and would like to be shown the same courtesy by you.

I underestimated the apparent lack of linguists on this forum. My comment about the Chinese waiter was not meant to be pejorative, but I understand why it was taken that way. I honestly wanted to get a professional, unbiased, third-party translation because I wasn't sure what was on it or not.

Maybe one day you'll realize that not everything is about the The brothers. I'm entitled to my opinion, and just because that opinion may not be shared by one or both doesn't mean I have to stay silent.

For what its worth, I'll repeat myself. This is my own opinion. I have said several times that I respect your opinion of your teacher.....I just don't happen to believe his claims.

[Flaca]

Don't forget C:)

:(
Blech. I usually forget that.

Happy Birthday.

[Golden Tiger]

At the end of your comments to me I took note of what I think is a perfectly reasonable and respectable position. Being involved in the club with Sin for 40 years is good enough. I couldn't agree more and I'm happy for all of you.


Why thank you. Yes, I have been around since the days at the Buel Armory so it has been a wild ride.


By the way I do recognize my bias, do you recognize your own? I've told you how/where to go to get the translation, so please go ahead. Anecdotes, hearsay, a student of a student said 10 years ago, Sin says, Bill says, none of that makes up a well-constructed logical argument. Ideally you would bring your proof/evidence, I would bring mine and we could debate. I've given you a preview of a small part of mine and would like to be shown the same courtesy by you.


Here's the thing. 99.9% of what I say is from PERSONAL experience. Not what I heard from someone else, but what I saw and lived through.

As for a well-constructed logical arguement, so far, your has been based on here-say and opinion with the exception of the translation of a certificate that no one is disputing. We all agree that what you said is what the certificate says.


For what its worth, I'll repeat myself. This is my own opinion. I have said several times that I respect your opinion of your teacher.....I just don't happen to believe his claims.

And that is fine. I too have an opinion, based on being there when a lot of things happened.

We will just have to agree to disagree on certain things...noo harm no foul.

[Citong Shifu]

Why thank you. Yes, I have been around since the days at the Buel Armory so it has been a wild ride.



Here's the thing. 99.9% of what I say is from PERSONAL experience. Not what I heard from someone else, but what I saw and lived through.

As for a well-constructed logical arguement, so far, your has been based on here-say and opinion with the exception of the translation of a certificate that no one is disputing. We all agree that what you said is what the certificate says.



And that is fine. I too have an opinion, based on being there when a lot of things happened.

We will just have to agree to disagree on certain things...noo harm no foul.


I think everyone is kicking around a dead horse at this point. Furthermore, I dont think that there hasnt been anything "NOT" discussed or debated. This thread has become rediculously redundant!!! Regardless, what you, me, & SD people think about lineage and marketing claims, etc, it doesnt really matter.. all of us know who we are and what we're about... I think we all have at one point or another been bias to our art and marketing. So What! Lets end this thread and start a new one that will discuss training methods or principles between our styles, or something more beneficial to all of us.... I think we should have Gene lock out or delete this thread and start a more productive thread on various art differences / similarities. What do all you guys think?????

CS

[Lorenzo Valla]

Thanks for your comments. While the certificate is the most obvious piece of evidence, I think I brought up several other items that weren't hearsay. Below are some of the things that caused me to reach my conclusion. Some are small items, some not.

The name of the school and system Sin studied under was the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.
-- He has never called his school this name.
-- The certificates issued to his students through most of the 1980s (unsure of exact date) do not contain the characters "Shaolin", "Chung Yen" or "Hiang Kwang The"

To date there has been no certificate produced naming him the Grandmaster.

His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate.

The material on the certificate doesn't correspond with the published info.

His legal effort in the early 1990s to copyright the system as the Grandmaster was dismissed.

Master Hiang kept a separate school for most of the time he has been in the U.S.
-- Neither one ever taught the other's class.
-- He was promoted in 1978 by one of his and Sin's still living former teachers.
-- He publicly refused Sin's promotion in 1983.

I think these items are fairly established and I've kept them to simple statements. No one item is proof positive, but together they indicate a troubling pattern arguing against the current claims.

Rather than replying point by point to the above, could you offer your evidence arguing for Sin's claim? Not a challenge.....just a request so we can move the dialogue further along.

[Baqualin]

I think everyone is kicking around a dead horse at this point. Furthermore, I dont think that there hasnt been "NOT" discussed or debated. This thread has become rediculously redundant!!! Regardless, what you, me, & SD people think about lineage and marketing claims, etc, it doesnt really matter.. all of us know who we are and what we're about... I think we all have at one point or another have been bias to our art and marketing. So What! Lets end this thread and start a new one that will discuss training methods or principles between our styles, or something more beneficial to all of us.... I think we should have Gene lock out or delete this thread and start a more productive thread on various art differences / similarities. What do all you guys think?????

CS

NOW THAT'S THE BEST STATEMENT I'VE READ ON THIS THREAD YET:D
I'm in....I'll even invite lorenzo....he should have some constructive criticism:)

[Judge Pen]

Hold on to the A. The formula is going to get scarce.

[Baqualin]

Thanks for your comments. While the certificate is the most obvious piece of evidence, I think I brought up several other items that weren't hearsay. Below are some of the things that caused me to reach my conclusion. Some are small items, some not.

The name of the school and system Sin studied under was the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.
-- He has never called his school this name.
-- The certificates issued to his students through most of the 1980s (unsure of exact date) do not contain the characters "Shaolin", "Chung Yen" or "Hiang Kwang The"

To date there has been no certificate produced naming him the Grandmaster.

His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate.

The material on the certificate doesn't correspond with the published info.



Just one question.....where's Hiang's Certificate naming him Grand Master:confused:
His legal effort in the early 1990s to copyright the system as the Grandmaster was dismissed.

Master Hiang kept a separate school for most of the time he has been in the U.S.
-- Neither one ever taught the other's class.
-- He was promoted in 1978 by one of his and Sin's still living former teachers.
-- He publicly refused Sin's promotion in 1983.

I think these items are fairly established and I've kept them to simple statements. No one item is proof positive, but together they indicate a troubling pattern arguing against the current claims.

Rather than replying point by point to the above, could you offer your evidence arguing for Sin's claim? Not a challenge.....just a request so we can move the dialogue further along.



Just one question.....where's Hiang's Certificate naming him Grand Master:confused:

[Lorenzo Valla]

Thanks for your invitation and I appreciate it. Its entirely up to the regular posters whether or not to close the thread. It has probably gone on a little too long. When I started this, it was really because I had never seen it before, read it and thought some things needed to be corrected. Of course that's where we tend to disagree. Either way, I doubt I'll have the time to spend keeping up with this forum anyway. Seems to take a lot of time and at the end, I'm not sure what the goal is anyway.

[Lorenzo Valla]

Baqualin,

I'll work on that request and its a reasonable one. But my point was to present my argument and then to consider yours. Pretend you can convince me of your position. Don't just argue against me, argue for your guy.

[Judge Pen]

Thanks for your comments. While the certificate is the most obvious piece of evidence, I think I brought up several other items that weren't hearsay. Below are some of the things that caused me to reach my conclusion. Some are small items, some not.

As I haven't read the certificate or had it translated (by a professional service or the nice lady at the buffett) what you say the translation actually says is hearsay without the supporting information. If you want to argue that your version is true (it may be; I don't know) then don't take umbridge with those that would like to see the best evidence of your averments.

The name of the school and system Sin studied under was the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.

Again, says who? You? Hiang? It may very well be, but, assuming for the sake of argument that this is correct, the fact that Hiang The now uses that name when Sin The doesn't legitmize your account any more than using "Do" instead of "tao" makes SD Japanese. You can call a mule a racehorse, but he still won't win the Derby.
-- He has never called his school this name.
Ok. Your point?
-- The certificates issued to his students through most of the 1980s (unsure of exact date) do not contain the characters "Shaolin", "Chung Yen" or "Hiang Kwang The"
See above.

To date there has been no certificate produced naming him the Grandmaster.

I've heard so much about this letter out there.... can you confirm or deny that you guys have this letter and will not return it? If so, that sounds a bit fishy to me...

His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate.

The material on the certificate doesn't correspond with the published info.

Taking your word for that

His legal effort in the early 1990s to copyright the system as the Grandmaster was dismissed.

Cases can be dimissed for numerous reasons. The Court no longer has the paperwork but the log bookes indicate that an Order of Compromise and Dismissal was entered. I know a bit about this. This means the case was settled out of court for whatever reason. Cases are "dismissed" all the time for reasons that don't go to the merits of the case.

Master Hiang kept a separate school for most of the time he has been in the U.S.
-- Neither one ever taught the other's class.
-- He was promoted in 1978 by one of his and Sin's still living former teachers.
-- He publicly refused Sin's promotion in 1983.

Again, I'll have to rely upon hearsay on that. I've always heard that they did teach under the same school.

I think these items are fairly established and I've kept them to simple statements. No one item is proof positive, but together they indicate a troubling pattern arguing against the current claims.

Arguments will always be here. With no proof positive, we can argue all day and not get anywhere.

Rather than replying point by point to the above, could you offer your evidence arguing for Sin's claim? Not a challenge.....just a request so we can move the dialogue further along.

I'm not trying to prove Sin's claim or disprove yours. I do take umbridge with the initial tone of your post and the obvious axe you have to grind here. I've been contributing to the SD train-wreck on KFO for as long as anybody (Save Rad) and no one has ever taken pot shots at Hiang The as far as I can remember. My teacher always speaks highly of Hiang The and the classes he took from him way back in the day. Why do you feel the need to come here and open up old wounds and poor salt on them???

[kwaichang]

Mr Valla,

Please scan and post your receipt. I will pay for the translation and would like for you to Fed ex it to me cod for the amount you paid that company. When I receive it along with a copy of the letter I will also have a translation done by a Linguistics professor of Chinese that I know Thanks KC

[Lorenzo Valla]

I'm sorry you feel the way you do about this situation. Do you have anything to support your claim. The claim that SD posters to this forum have made repeatedly for over two years? That's all we're talking about.

There's no point in my posting anything from any translation service, because you guys will just say its wrong, inaccurate, etc. That's why I've suggested you get your own done.

I think its always interesting to see the SD posters attitude about Hiang. At the bottom of your post you say, "no one has taken a pot shot at Hiang The as far as I can remember." At the top of the post you accuse him of stealing Sin's personal letter.

Similar comments abound through the thread. He got kicked out of the club. He's afraid to go back to Indonesia. He stays quiet because he's so ashamed. He's so desperate that he calls Master Ie his grandfather. "Oh but we respect him so"

I don't think anyone would call that or what that as respect.

[Lorenzo Valla]

I would prefer the following method.

Lingua Solutions, Inc.

Translation, Localization, Consulting

Phone: (818) 380-3008

Fax: (818) 743-7411

www.linguainc.com

(Or whoever you want to use....maybe someone different to get a different look.)

They offer free quotes and same day service if the signed invoice is faxed to them prior to 1000 pacific time.

This is a simpler and cheaper method involving a lot fewer moving parts. Oh, forgot to say this several posts ago, they send their work back to you by email so the process is very fast. You can get a copy of the certificate by going to the page on www.sinthe.com and cutting and pasting. That's what I did.

Hope that help.

[The Willow Sword]

I think we should have Gene lock out or delete this thread and start a more productive thread on various art differences / similarities. What do all you guys think?????

i dont think that this will happen because if i remember correctly his posts in the past he doesnt want alot of SD threads popping up choking the bandwidth. keep the Sd thread here where it is contained. It still has not topped the "got qi girls thread"

i say keep it here and do NOT delete or lock this thread. it is and WILL be an interesting archive and can be referenced by anyone wanting to know more about what, in my opinion they should avoid:) .

Peace,TWS

[Baqualin]

Baqualin,

I'll work on that request and its a reasonable one. But my point was to present my argument and then to consider yours. Pretend you can convince me of your position. Don't just argue against me, argue for your guy.

I was making a point that this is a brother thing and they settled it....and your trying to open it back up:confused:

[kwaichang]

I have cut and pasted as you did I will get a quote I also am printing a copy for my Linguistics professor to translate.
Quick question did they translate it in modern or Traditional Chinese ? KC

[Lorenzo Valla]

Their project manager stated that the text was in "older style Chinese" and in fact it cost a little more. Plus the legibility of the copy was such that the linguist had to work longer to get it done.

[Radhnoti]

LV - "His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate."

It was mentioned as a possibility that GM Sin trained informally prior to being accepted into the school. If GM Ie was his grandfather that makes even more sense.

I think Hiang is using the Indonesian club name. I've spoken to Senior Masters who indicate they were there when shaolin-do was picked as an official name. This does contradict what was said in GM Sin's book...that Shaolin-do was used in Indonesia. Had that been so it's fairly certain the shaolin-do name would have been used earlier on. It is possible that shaolin-do was always the name GM Sin intended to use for HIS club...and the karate club stuff was eliminated with the intent of unity/clarity. Either way that does seem to be a misstatement.

As GT said, the translated letter I offered up was posted online by a student of GM Hiang. I have no idea who has the letter now, I only know that it offered up obscure facts that have been shown to be correct. In my opinion, that, plus the lack of any clear "victor" should the letter show itself to be true, makes it's likelihood of veracity much greater.

I also think that Sin earned 5th and (later) Hiang earned 7th...Hiang passing Sin in "original school rank" occured after Sin moved to the U.S. A student of Hiang offered up a letter from Ie saying Sin was GM, Hiang PARTICIPATED in large portions of SD history in which Sin was acknowledged as "GM"...and GM Sin says he was passed down the title. Do you see how someone from Hiang's group saying something different NOW seems disingenuous?

So, I agree with much of what you say, but most of it isn't disputed by SDers as far as I can tell.

Also, I think there's confusion about the translation. We began talking about the letter and GT seemed to indicate that Hiang had it...also I knew I had gotten it online from a Hiang student. Somewhere along the line your translation of the certificate (which no one questions beyond "minored") got confused with a translation of the letter. So, I think everyone agrees with your translation but no one thinks it's a big deal. Your point, if I understand you, is that the certificate GM Sin is displaying is 5th level black...but if he was honorarily raised to 10th or the grading system was changed to reflect the state of U.S. competition that point is moot as well.

A caveat. Almost nothing I produce is first hand like GT, baqualine, and a few others...I trained to blackbelt from 2000-2004ish. I'm all web-fu when it comes to shaolin-do these days, I'm actually starting to train with Western and Japanese based styles now.

Happy birthday baqualine. :)

[Flaca]

Hold on to the A. The formula is going to get scarce.
:eek:
Noooooo.... what'll we do???? Why will it get scarce? What (else) have I missed?

With any luck 'C' will get scarce. Eeeeeuuuuwwww. I had a chew of that tonight and I'm still getting it out of my teeth.

[Judge Pen]

I'm sorry you feel the way you do about this situation. Do you have anything to support your claim. The claim that SD posters to this forum have made repeatedly for over two years? That's all we're talking about.

There's no point in my posting anything from any translation service, because you guys will just say its wrong, inaccurate, etc. That's why I've suggested you get your own done.

I think its always interesting to see the SD posters attitude about Hiang. At the bottom of your post you say, "no one has taken a pot shot at Hiang The as far as I can remember." At the top of the post you accuse him of stealing Sin's personal letter.

Similar comments abound through the thread. He got kicked out of the club. He's afraid to go back to Indonesia. He stays quiet because he's so ashamed. He's so desperate that he calls Master Ie his grandfather. "Oh but we respect him so"

I didn't accuse him of getting kicked out of Indonesia either. Is that true?
I don't think anyone would call that or what that as respect.

You have an interesting sense of "accuasation." If you read my post, I asked you to confirm or deny whether or not the letter has been taken. I don't know. I've never seen the letter. I think GT alluded that the original certificate and letter were in your camp's possession and I was asking you to confirm or deny it. Ease up man. I'm not accusing anyone of anything.

[Golden Tiger]

Good morning everyone. So, where are we now?

It does seem that we have gotten our thoughts crossed a little concerning translations and such. As the hon. JP stated, no one is disputing the certificate translation. In fact, I am having it translated as I type this and will post a pic of the certificate and the translation (at great person expense mind you but you all are worth it :rolleyes: ).

As to the other document in question, the "letter". Before I got on here, I had never even heard of the letter. It was entered into the conversation by "Ground Dragon " I think, a student of M. Hiang's side of this mess. He stated that it proved that Master Sin and Hiang were the grandsons of M. Ie. It also stated that Master Sin was given the red belt by Master Ie, the head of the school where both of them trained. I have never seen it, don't know if it was dreamed up during an acid induced trip, or how and by who it was translated. But it was introduced, by a student of M. Hiang, so I could only conclude that it was in their pocession. Reasonable enough assumption.

As for Master Sin certificate that is in question, as far as I know, only a copy exists in the hands of the SD side. It is part of a picture showing the ranking used in SD. The actuall one, I have never seen. Except for a copy that was emailed to me by a student of M. Hiangs. I have heard references to it in SD but since we will not allow heresay, I will not mention that. But I do know we do not have it. I do wonder why.

Since certificates are of great interest, I took the chance to look at the current and older ones that M. Hiang is providing during rank advancement. Having gotten them translated, neither one states anything about "Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts". The characters read "Shaolin Karate Kung Fu Certificate". (Photo with translation will be provided below). Perhaps you should ask him to change them so that 50 years from now, there will be no confusion when this debate pops up again.

Now, what else can we discuss?

[Baqualin]

:eek:
Noooooo.... what'll we do???? Why will it get scarce? What (else) have I missed?

With any luck 'C' will get scarce. Eeeeeuuuuwwww. I had a chew of that tonight and I'm still getting it out of my teeth.

Your not suppose to chew it.....swallow it with water...real quick:D

[kungfujunky]

hey bq check your email

[Golden Tiger]

I will have to scan the translation in but for those of you that have it, reading from right to left, it is as follows( by line):

1. Graduation Certificate

2. Mr Zhen Sin Kwang Fujian Province/county
3. 20 years old /finished the courses required
4. 10 years old when began 3 parts of study
5. 1954-55 primary study 1st level black
6. 1956-58 2nd level /junior 3rd level black
7. 1959-63 Advanced level/5th black
8. Passed exams and graduated
9. Learned golden snake
10. cyclone/hurricane leg
11. Iron finger
12. 3 styles only passed down in only to school students very outstanding
13. Competed in competitions held by Cheng Yen Shaolin School
14. was champion
15. Giving the highest honor in this school* (hmmm, might be refering to competition, might not...couldnt tell)
16. Cheng Yen Shaolin Kung Fu school
17. Iron Palm Creator/head Yu Chang Ming
18. year, 1964 Jan 15th


There you go. I will try to get it scanned sometime today or soon. Some of the words might be off because there were "kung fu" words and she was not sure.


Now I have to buy an extra buffet dinner....:D

[kungfujunky]

based off of that this pic makes it more plausible that he was at least 8th or 9th degree at the time (i dont think he was 10th yet as gm ie hadnt written the letter at that time)

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/rankingsystem.jpg

interesting

[Radhnoti]

James D. Hall was the posting name of the Hiang student who put out the first copy I saw of the letter. Seems like he worked as a nurse at a hospital in Pikeville, KY and his teacher called his club "Shaolin Kuoshu". It's likely GD (if he posted it) got his copy of the letter from me.

It's all online, google groups stuff...

[Flaca]

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/GMandweapons.jpg

I didn't look at this one before. In the painting, M Sin has the red belt, M Hiang has black belt still. Presumably M Hiang agreed to the use of his image... Not conclusive, but still interesting.

[Radhnoti]

Well...that certificate verifies the school wasn't at that time called shaolin-do, at least not internally.

Speaking of the rankings...it cracks me up that 8-10th is called "elderly" master. I knew a senior master that was supposed to kid EM Leonard with "elderly" master. I really thought it was supposed to be "elder" master. I also heard that he walked up to EM Leonard just after he got promoted and said, "Hey! Where do I get me one o' them candy cane colored belts!" :D

[Lorenzo Valla]

To all: I'm still looking for you to support [U]your[U] claims that Sin is the head of the Shaolin system. The SD supporters keep trying to introduce red herrings into the discussion. You've made a claim repeatedly in this forum.....I'm interested in you supporting it.

Radhnoti

As far as the name for the school, the current title of the sinthe.com website is "Sin The Karate Club."

The letter you folks keep referencing is hard to comment on. None of you have seen it (Original or copy), none of you know where it is, and none of you can say who the student was that originally brought it up. Interestingly, in spite of all these issues, you and GT are more inclined to believe it?

I would agree that there was an implied acknowledgment of Sin's status by Master Hiang. When I was in the old club, I thought the same. Based on what I know now, I have a different interpretation. Looking at things in hindsight, the obvious distance between them in the club may have been the result of a disagreement.

JP

So, you haven't seen the letter either but believe it completely? Has anyone on this forum since the letter?

GT

Again, another SD supporter who hasn't seen the letter, doesn't know where the letter is, doesn't know who posted the translation of the letter, but believes it completely, except for the Grandfather part. You know at this point, I'm tempted to declare victory and walk away.

I'll disregard your theft allegation. Another claim for which you have no support.

My interest in certificates is this: Your instructor claims to have been made the GM of a particular school by his former teacher. He has posted a certificate in his school that is supposedly to establish this fact. If this isn't what he bases his claim on then produce something, anything, that does.

Oh, good luck finding the word "karate" on one of Master Hiang's certificates. Karate is the transliteration of two Japanese characters.

Remember, you've made the claim that 1) Sin is the grandmaster 2) He has 900 forms 3) The school was always called "Shaolin Do". These are your (collective) statements on this forum.

Still waiting for something......anything.....a photo.....a certificate......a letter.....

[Lorenzo Valla]

Radhnoti....sorry for missing your last posts. I appreciate you putting the name up on the board. I've never heard of him before......doesn't mean anything of course.

For my part, I honestly have never heard anything about this letter, from anyone until I came to this site.

[Golden Tiger]

According to my translator, the 3rd 4th and 5th characters say karate.



To all: I'm still looking for you to support [u]your[u] claims that Sin is the head of the Shaolin system.


Sin The' is the head of Shaolin Do aka Sin The Karate Club. Shaolin Do was meant to be a unifying name for the system he teaches.


The letter you folks keep referencing is hard to comment on. None of you have seen it (Original or copy), none of you know where it is, and none of you can say who the student was that originally brought it up. Interestingly, in spite of all these issues, you and GT are more inclined to believe it?

I neither believe or disbelieve it. I was brought into the discussion a long time ago by someone that, like you, has issues with SD. But it does talk about the "jade smoking stick" that Master Ie gave Master Sin. And it was originally posted by someone (James Hall) that absolutely hated SD and Master Sin. I know that for a fact.


I would agree that there was an implied acknowledgment of Sin's status by Master Hiang.

So, Sin knows it, Hiang acknowledges it, tons of people over 40 years believe it....all except you. Do you perhaps see a problem here?


You know at this point, I'm tempted to declare victory and walk away.

You have bested me, for sure. You could do that and be proud.


Remember, you've made the claim that 1) Sin is the grandmaster 2) He has 900 forms 3) The school was always called "Shaolin Do".

1. If by nothing more than default, Sin The is the Grand Master of Shaolin-Do.
2. So far he has taught around 190 or so and still going. Some of which are on the other side still. Don't worry, if you all run out, I will come over and show you something cool.
3. Actually, the school, to this day, is called Sin The Karate Club. The system is called Shaolin-Do. You know, like on the left patch on a Hiangs uniform.


My interest in certificates is this: Your instructor claims to have been made the GM of a particular school by his former teacher. He has posted a certificate in his school that is supposedly to establish this fact. If this isn't what he bases his claim on then produce something, anything, that does.


The same of asked of you about M. Hiang and his magic promotion from 7th? 8th? up to 10th. Heck, I would settle to see his certificate like M. Sins...

[Baqualin]

hey bq check your email

I did...email me your phone# and I'll give you a call:)

[Lorenzo Valla]

Looks like someone typed something below it and scanned it in. Maybe I'll try that with something else.....you know when I want to prove something and make it look....I don't know.....real. Wonder what all those other squiggly lines mean?

Still nothing to support your claim. Well, I've given you five days to come up with something, so I think that's enough time. If you ever do manage to find something to support your incredible position, post it. I'll check back every now and then for something new.

I particularly liked the spin on the name thing....different from earlier posts on the forum, but nice.

Well, its time for me and my jade smoking stick to go through my 900 forms(yeah I got one too...no, you can't see it,.....yes, Master Ie gave it to me in a secret letter, and no you can't see that either).

BTW, we'd always be interested in learning something new from you Tony.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Lorenzo Valla;709753]Looks like someone typed something below it and scanned it in. Maybe I'll try that with something else.....you know when I want to prove something and make it look....I don't know.....real. Wonder what all those other squiggly lines mean?

I think GT typed in the translation of the Chinese charactors on the cert. that's pretty obvious.:rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

Master Ie gave it to me in a secret letter, and no you can't see that either). [QUOTE]

Now that was a little raw...none of us on here ever said....we've seen the letter.....we believe everything supposed letter says...it's a secret letter, once again the letter came from your side not ours and just like you we were not aware of it until one of YOUR people posted it here. So you need to look in your own back yard for that one....if it is real and you do find it post it for all to see.

You've come on here and raised some very interesting questions that only GM Sin and M Hiang can truely answer or prove and I give you that.....but it's just as vague on your side...sorry you can't see that. At least there's a certificate for GMS which like the bible can be interpreted in many ways thru translations....it also seems funny that you guys have the original and we only have a copy....can you explain that. Once again where's the certificate (not from his students) proclaiming him a Grand Master...not an attack on you but a matter of credibility.

[Golden Tiger]

Looks like someone typed something below it and scanned it in. Maybe I'll try that with something else.....you know when I want to prove something and make it look....I don't know.....real. Wonder what all those other squiggly lines mean?

Not sure what you are saying here LV. That is an actually Hiang The certificate, with the name removed but the year is still there. The english translation was texted over in photoshop. The lines simply pointed to the characters they represented. Sorry, I figured everyone would have gotten what was going on there.:rolleyes: To prove this is his certificate, go here and see, its the same sans the translation (sorry, thats to funny) http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/testing.html just scroll down a bit.


I particularly liked the spin on the name thing....different from earlier posts on the forum, but nice.

Thats the way it happened. We always belonged to the Sin The karate club, studied Shaolin-Do and so on.


Well, its time for me and my jade smoking stick to go through my 900 forms(yeah I got one too...no, you can't see it,.....yes, Master Ie gave it to me in a secret letter, and no you can't see that either).

You will be missed LV.


BTW, we'd always be interested in learning something new from you Tony.

Close, but no cigar. Does make you wonder though doesn't it.:cool:



I think GT typed in the translation of the Chinese charactors on the cert. that's pretty obvious.

Wasn't it kind of obvious?
:D

[Judge Pen]

You know at this point, I'm tempted to declare victory and walk away.

Ok, why don't you? You're trying to pick a fight with people here that don't want to fight you. I'm not interested in this rift between Sin and Hiang or who outranks who in their family. You think whatever you think and do your own thing and we'll do ours. You want us to prove that we're right but we are not the persons to be discussing this with. The only two people that know and can solve this debate don't appear to take umbridge with each other. Leave it alone man. We can't solve any of this here and its disrespectful to both brothers to try. Obviously you believe that rank notwithstanding Sin The learned kung fu from Ie the same as Hiang. Why don't you support that argument (which is, along with the same lineage to Su Kong that you claim, is the reason why all of the detractors here attach both of our schools)? Leave the sibling debate off of here.

And heck, even I knew GT wasn't named Tony. :D

[Judge Pen]

Not sure what you are saying here LV. That is an actually Hiang The certificate, with the name removed but the year is still there. The english translation was texted over in photoshop. The lines simply pointed to the characters they represented. Sorry, I figured everyone would have gotten what was going on there.:rolleyes: To prove this is his certificate, go here and see, its the same sans the translation (sorry, thats to funny) http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/testing.html just scroll down a bit.

I don't see Hiangs certificate....

[Golden Tiger]

I don't see Hiangs certificate....


Sorry, bad wording there. I meant his as in "his schools standard certificate". I was simply trying to point out to the gentleman LV that pre- self GM promotion and the beginning of Chung Yen Shaolin along with the current (hence the link) certificate is the same and it has the karate char. on it and no where says anything about the name of the school or nuttin!