Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Sorry, bad wording there. I meant his as in "his schools standard certificate". I was simply trying to point out to the gentleman LV that pre- self GM promotion and the beginning of Chung Yen Shaolin along with the current (hence the link) certificate is the same and it has the karate char. on it and no where says anything about the name of the school or nuttin!

I see. Oh well.

[Baqualin]

Now that I think about it GT, considering LV's attitude he might have meant TONY TIGER:rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

The certificate I saw from Hiangs school definately says Shaolin Kara te Do reading left to right 1st 5 characters
BTW I have contacted the same company that Valla contacted and they said they cant translate it I will post the e-mail if interested so Mr Valla you are going to have to post something for us to think they translated it for you. Thanks KC

[dragon797]

The Chung Yen Shaolin rank advancement certificate that has been used for Black Belts since 2001 and White to Brown since 2003 reads from left to right:

Chen, Hiang Kwang, Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School Certificate

Not sure where you are getting your infomation, but it is not accurate.

[Golden Tiger]

The Chung Yen Shaolin rank advancement certificate that has been used for Black Belts since 2001 and White to Brown since 2003 reads from left to right:

Chen, Hiang Kwang, Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School Certificate

Not sure where you are getting your infomation, but it is not accurate.

My mistake. Shows how much attention i actually gave this before our friend Lorenzo stopped by. The first certificate that I referenced was from 1991. The second was from 2005. After enlarging the second, I now see that the characters are different.

Again, that was my mistake.

[Mas Judt]

Wow... the certificate has gone missing from the website. Why pull it?

[Yao Sing]

1. If by nothing more than default, Sin The is the Grand Master of Shaolin-Do.

He wouldn't be the only one to do that. If the claim of Grandmaster goes unchallenged guess what? He's the Grandmaster.


The same of asked of you about M. Hiang and his magic promotion from 7th? 8th? up to 10th. Heck, I would settle to see his certificate like M. Sins...

Isn't 10th degree the typical Grandmaster rank among different styles? I seem to remember reading something somewhere to that effect. Generally it's given automatically to the head of a system. So skipping levels would not be unusual.

So anyone receiving the title Grandmaster would advance to 10th degree with the title. Or anything taking over a system unhallenged in the absence of a Grandmaster would assume the level of 10th degree.

[Citong Shifu]

He wouldn't be the only one to do that. If the claim of Grandmaster goes unchallenged guess what? He's the Grandmaster.



Isn't 10th degree the typical Grandmaster rank among different styles? I seem to remember reading something somewhere to that effect. Generally it's given automatically to the head of a system. So skipping levels would not be unusual.

So anyone receiving the title Grandmaster would advance to 10th degree with the title. Or anything taking over a system unhallenged in the absence of a Grandmaster would assume the level of 10th degree.


Really, 1st through 10th doesnt even exist... The Duan ranking system is a creation Chinese Wushu Association (China) within the last 10 years. 1st duan (degreee) is given to beginner and the degrees work up from there. As mentioned earlier, 10th duan is honory for Grandmaster. I have been told by some high ranking duans that 8th & 9th are usually honory as well.... Anywho, traditionally, duans or degrees were not used as ranking or position of master or grandmaster. So, In my opinion, 10th degree is an imaginary term in the CMA. There isn't such rank.... Well, there is now, but actually, GM is who claims the title... If you can hld onto the title, well, your GM...

CS

[Baqualin]

Wow... the certificate has gone missing from the website. Why pull it?

It's still there:) click on classes and scroll down to dojo gallery

[Baqualin]

Really, 1st through 10th doesnt even exist... The Duan ranking system is a creation Chinese Wushu Association (China) within the last 10 years. 1st duan (degreee) is given to beginner and the degrees work up from there. As mentioned earlier, 10th duan is honory for Grandmaster. I have been told by some high ranking duans that 8th & 9th are usually honory as well.... Anywho, traditionally, duans or degrees were not used as ranking or position of master or grandmaster. So, In my opinion, 10th degree is an imaginary term in the CMA. There isn't such rank.... Well, there is now, but actually, GM is who claims the title... If you can hld onto the title, well, your GM...

CS

I don't think that will be a problem:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

.... now if it is true that master sin was given this certificate and it indicates that he was at fifth level.....

.. take a look at the image of the belt ranking system again...

if you look on the right hand side it says that there are 5 black levels and is bracketed to cover all levels from 1st to 10th black ...

could it is be possible that this certificate indicates that he is the grandmaster and because we are americans translating chinese that this is just a matter of perspective as to whether he is or not the grandmaster or a fifth level blackbelt....

is it possible???is this possible?....... anyone??

[tattooedmonk]

Really, 1st through 10th doesnt even exist... The Duan ranking system is a creation Chinese Wushu Association (China) within the last 10 years. 1st duan (degreee) is given to beginner and the degrees work up from there. As mentioned earlier, 10th duan is honory for Grandmaster. I have been told by some high ranking duans that 8th & 9th are usually honory as well.... Anywho, traditionally, duans or degrees were not used as ranking or position of master or grandmaster. So, In my opinion, 10th degree is an imaginary term in the CMA. There isn't such rank.... Well, there is now, but actually, GM is who claims the title... If you can hld onto the title, well, your GM...

CS...that SD rankings come from a modified version of the Japanese ranking system and is not taken from the new Chinese version of it...

......but your statement is correct otherwise...from what I understand.

Grandmaster is the master of masters...it is also an honorary title given to the head of a system.

[tattooedmonk]

Now that I think about it GT, considering LV's attitude he might have meant TONY TIGER:rolleyes:LMAO!!!! This is what I thought tooo!!!

[kungfujunky]

is this possible?....... anyone??

my belief is that sin the was 9th degree (5th level elderly master according to the chart) at the time the certificate was issued and then was handed over the system in gmie's letter to him a few years later.

[tattooedmonk]

my belief is that sin the was 9th degree (5th level elderly master according to the chart) at the time the certificate was issued and then was handed over the system in gmie's letter to him a few years later......that this is the misunderstanding that people are thinking that fifth level master,( which could mean that he was 8th, 9th or 10th), is the same as fifth degree black.....thanx!

[Royal Dragon]

Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu Clip

This one is about as real as it gets boys!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9IgCqFjgA&mode=related&search=

This one is pretty much the version I know, compared to the one I posted a few pages back.

This set dates back to the early Sung dynasty. (960 AD)

[tattooedmonk]

Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu Clip

This one is about as real as it gets boys!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9IgCqFjgA&mode=related&search=

This one is pretty much the version I know, compared to the one I posted a few pages back.

This set dates back to the early Sung dynasty. (960 AD)nice collapsed ankle stance in your icon ......your ankle, hip, and shoulder need to be inalignment in that stance,( which they are not)......if that is what being real kung fu or not ...I pass....because eventually that is going to stop you from practicing i.e. injury.

[Citong Shifu]

nice collapsed ankle stance in your icon ......your ankle, hip, and shoulder need to be inalignment in that stance,( which they are not)......if that is what being real kung fu or not ...I pass....because eventually that is going to stop you from practicing i.e. injury.


Hmmmmm! Ankle, hip, & shoulder alignment in Xu Bu (ankle collapsed stance), could you explain please? Or, did you mean, ankle aligns with the knee and shaoulder aligns with the hips? Just curious. I think I understand your analogy, but just want to check...

CS

[Citong Shifu]

What are the names of your core stances?

Ours are:
gung bu - bow stance
ma bu - horse stance
ho gung bu - reverse bow stance
louhan gung bu - louhan bo stance
xa bu - twist stance
xu bu - empty stance
pu bu - quat or drop stance
du li bu - single leg stance

[tattooedmonk]

Hmmmmm! Ankle, hip, & shoulder alignment in Xu Bu (ankle collapsed stance), could you explain please? Or, did you mean, ankle aligns with the knee and shaoulder aligns with the hips? Just curious. I think I understand your analogy, but just want to check...

CS..... whether it is a cat stance or empty stance the back ankle, hip, and shoulder should be in vertical alignment.

You should be able to draw a straight line from the ankle to hip and to the shoulder.

Everything....... bones, muscles, tendons,etc should not be stressed out of their particular range of motion which this clearly is). This is based on modern understanding or human anatomy/ physiology .

The way he it doing it puts to much stress on the joints and is no way applicable for conditioning or fighting... ( I have seen many traditionalist and masters do this). As far as the knee being in alignment as well this depends on the stance and which plane you are refering to.

There is a great deal geometry, physical body mechanics ,energy , and weight distribution involved here.

Doing things just because it is tradition but goes against modern understanding of human anatomy / physiology is just rediculous to me.

I just figured that we could start talking about things that are intrinsic to the martial arts......

...I know you know what I mean

[Radhnoti]

Citong Shifu - "What are the names of your core stances?"

The ones WE practiced (aside from whatever came up in forms like "broken leg stance") were horse, bow, bird and cat. These were bread and butter, every class, part of the warm-up routine, stances. We also did "dragon squats" and other "in motion" routines that may correspond with some of your stances in our warm-ups. It's been a while so I may have left some things out...but I wanted your good question to at least get a partial response.

[Citong Shifu]

..... whether it is a cat stance or empty stance the back ankle, hip, and shoulder should be in vertical alignment.

You should be able to draw a straight line from the ankle to hip and to the shoulder.

Everything....... bones, muscles, tendons,etc should not be stressed out of their particular range of motion which this clearly is). This is based on modern understanding or human anatomy/ physiology .

The way he it doing it puts to much stress on the joints and is no way applicable for conditioning or fighting... ( I have seen many traditionalist and masters do this). As far as the knee being in alignment as well this depends on the stance and which plane you are refering to.

There is a great deal geometry, physical body mechanics ,energy , and weight distribution involved here.

Doing things just because it is tradition but goes against modern understanding of human anatomy / physiology is just rediculous to me.

I just figured that we could start talking about things that are intrinsic to the martial arts......

...I know you know what I mean

Ok, thats what I thought u meant.... We are saying the samething. We just explain it as stated above, because if the ankle is aligned with the knee and the shoulder aligned with the hip then you always have the straight or vertical line between the shoulder and the ankle, thus giving the appearance of sitting in a chair, but without the chair, lol :D .

I agree, its alot more interesting talking about these types of discussions, well, at least until someone takes it personal :rolleyes: .

CS

[Citong Shifu]

Citong Shifu - "What are the names of your core stances?"

The ones WE practiced (aside from whatever came up in forms like "broken leg stance") were horse, bow, bird and cat. These were bread and butter, every class, part of the warm-up routine, stances. We also did "dragon squats" and other "in motion" routines that may correspond with some of your stances in our warm-ups. It's been a while so I may have left some things out...but I wanted your good question to at least get a partial response.


LOL, Thanks. I've noticed that every style has its variation in stance work. It's interesting to see or talk about the differences in training stances and or names and principles of stance training... We train the physical aspect, as well as the fighting aspects... My teacher always told us that if we trained propper footwork/stances and their core principles, we could fight an attacker with only our stances.... Which is true.... Proper stance understanding leads a person to a whole new world of lower body destruction techniques, crippling at that... Love it, well at least when i'm dishing it out, lol :D . Anywho, thanks for the reply...

CS

[BentMonk]

Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu Clip

This one is about as real as it gets boys!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9IgCqFjgA&mode=related&search=

This one is pretty much the version I know, compared to the one I posted a few pages back.

This set dates back to the early Sung dynasty. (960 AD)

In this set I saw a good deal of SD's Interconnecting Fist, and Five Directional Palm. I also saw many movements that were identical to many of our short forms. Which are a small portion of the original 108 Lohan. I have read that some find our short forms very much like Tan Tui as well. Nice clip.

[BM2]

I have often wondered, who is Kung Fu Fan ?
You can send me a PM, I won't tell;)

[kungfujunky]

who me?

lol

[Judge Pen]

Nah, the troll with "1" post who started this thread.

[Radhnoti]

He's been at a boxing gym for 3 years now, his first semi-pro fight is this Thursday...
:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

In this set I saw a good deal of SD's Interconnecting Fist, and Five Directional Palm. I also saw many movements that were identical to many of our shaort forms. Which are a small portion of the original 108 Lohan. I have read that some find our short forms very much like Tan Tui as well. Nice clip.now we have shaolin monks copying our material!!:rolleyes: what next Shaolin Do will be declared by the PRC to be authentic Shaolin and all you pityful little worms will have to fall to your knees and beg for instruction!!!:eek: :D

[Leto]

On the topic of Lien Wu Chang and Chie Chien...
I have heard conflicting information about how to categorize these forms. For one, I've heard Lien Wu Chang referred to as a southern fist form, and Chie Chien as northern fist form. I am skeptical of this, as Lien Wu Chang certainly seems to be more stereotypical northern shaolin (especially after noticing the similarities with Xiao Hong Quan). Second, I have heard these two forms, as well as Ching Kong Fu hu Chien, called a part of the "Shantung whirling palm set", which I guess would also include the four Shantung black tiger forms. If they are part of a set from Shantung, how could one of them be a "southern fist" form?
How were they originally introduced, and where do they conceptually belong? While they definately seem like northern Shaolin style forms, they don't seem to share much in the way of techniques or movement with the black tiger forms.
I hope someone can shed some light.

[ninthdrunk]

I believe they are referred to as "tiger sister system forms." They are supposed to teach the three hand strikes of the tiger system: tiger claw, open palm, and fist. They obviously also teach different methods of footwork: switching stances more or less in place from ching kang; spinning while advancing and retreating from lian u chang; and pretty much straight out advancing from chie chuan.

I guess that conceptually it makes a lot of sense that they are where they are in the curriculum. Right after we learn these forms (which get us ready for tiger system), we learn the black tiger forms.

I agree that the black tiger system seems quite different from these forms. I think that the black tiger system was it's own system, not to be confused with the original tiger system. It seems much more "northern" in its approach: far-reaching attacks and lots of good techniques for covering big gaps in distances. However, if you look at the golden tiger form taught outside the curriculum, it makes a lot of sense that the three 1st brown forms get the student ready for tiger system training.

I've seen them referred to as china hands, but never actually heard that from my teacher or grandmaster sin. So, I stick with the sister system story.


Hope this helps. As for what they were first referred to, I'd ask GT or Baqualin....although I haven't seen them around too much lately.

[Invincible Yang]

I just signed up for the 2nd road of the Ground Monkey. I didn't take the 1st road so I was wondering what to expect. Like what kind of things I should work on until the seminar.

[kungfujunky]

crunches! and monkey rolls

i cant wait to see it myself!

[Golden Tiger]

I believe they are referred to as "tiger sister system forms." They are supposed to teach the three hand strikes of the tiger system: tiger claw, open palm, and fist.

You are correct sir.


I've seen them referred to as china hands,

This reference came from when they were first shown to a select few. Most of the forms back then were called "china hand" 1, 34, 22, etc...or so I have been told.


As for what they were first referred to, I'd ask GT or Baqualin..........although I haven't seen them around too much lately.

Oh, I am around. LV just wore my fingers out replying.:D

[ninthdrunk]

yang - hehehe...don't bother trying to get ready for the ground monkey. It's tough. That's all there is to it. Just go and plan on having lots of fun. Of course, after you learn it you'll have hours of entertainment on your hands!

I'm a big fan of the monkey, and I really feel that, because it is so different from anything else we do, the only way to get ready for monkey is to do more monkey. It changes the way you move, and the way you think and act if you do the forms correctly.

Heck, so if you wanna get ready and don't like the idea of just waiting for it. Go out and pretend to be a monkey. Throw yourself around on the ground and have a good time! That's what I do...hehehe....plus my forms, techniques, drill, background training, conditioning...blahblahblah....I've actually worked up quite an extensive monkey repertoire of training materials from my own study and practice of the forms.

[Flaca]

yang - hehehe...don't bother trying to get ready for the ground monkey. It's tough. That's all there is to it. Just go and plan on having lots of fun. Of course, after you learn it you'll have hours of entertainment on your hands!

I'm a big fan of the monkey, and I really feel that, because it is so different from anything else we do, the only way to get ready for monkey is to do more monkey. It changes the way you move, and the way you think and act if you do the forms correctly.

Heck, so if you wanna get ready and don't like the idea of just waiting for it. Go out and pretend to be a monkey. Throw yourself around on the ground and have a good time! That's what I do...hehehe....plus my forms, techniques, drill, background training, conditioning...blahblahblah....I've actually worked up quite an extensive monkey repertoire of training materials from my own study and practice of the forms.

We did ground monkey in class a few times. Slide in side kick one way, slide in side kick the other way, dive on your face, side kick, kip up, dive on your face again, jump to seated... omg!!! :eek: Fun though. :rolleyes:

[NastyHaggis]

We are getting ready for Golden Leopard I & II in a couple of weeks. Great stuff. I'm only a white sash (will test for yellow that week), so I'm a tad unsure of what to expect right now.

[tattooedmonk]

:cool:
I believe they are referred to as "tiger sister system forms." They are supposed to teach the three hand strikes of the tiger system: tiger claw, open palm, and fist. They obviously also teach different methods of footwork: switching stances more or less in place from ching kang; spinning while advancing and retreating from lian u chang; and pretty much straight out advancing from chie chuan.

I guess that conceptually it makes a lot of sense that they are where they are in the curriculum. Right after we learn these forms (which get us ready for tiger system), we learn the black tiger forms.

I agree that the black tiger system seems quite different from these forms. I think that the black tiger system was it's own system, not to be confused with the original tiger system. It seems much more "northern" in its approach: far-reaching attacks and lots of good techniques for covering big gaps in distances. However, if you look at the golden tiger form taught outside the curriculum, it makes a lot of sense that the three 1st brown forms get the student ready for tiger system training.

I've seen them referred to as china hands, but never actually heard that from my teacher or grandmaster sin. So, I stick with the sister system story.


Hope this helps. As for what they were first referred to, I'd ask GT or Baqualin....although I haven't seen them around too much lately.this is what i was taught on the west coast as well ( nice to see somnethings have stayed the same!:rolleyes:

[Leto]

I think that the black tiger system was it's own system, not to be confused with the original tiger system.
What forms belong to the "original tiger system"?

When you say "tiger sister system", you're thinking that they belong with the four black tiger forms, and are from Shantung? I'm not skeptical of this, just looking for instruction. The Soards call them the "Shantung Whirling Palm Fighting System" (that's how it is on the schedule from the website). It makes sense that the three brown belt forms are like a foundation for different styles of striking (though the black tigers only use the special fist formation, and use different forms of claw and palm striking). Besides fei hu chu tong, are there any other tiger system forms in the style? In three years, I didn't see any tiger style seminars advertised, and no regular curriculum forms after the black tigers.
I love these forms and practice them regularly, I'm just trying to make sense of the "system" part of it. Which concepts and techniques carry over from the brown belt forms into the black tigers? Or are they more like supplemental/additional techniques that would have been taught to round out the skills of the black tiger set?

[ninthdrunk]

Personally, I've always felt that lian u chang and chie chuan were the sister system forms, while ching kang is a "proper" tiger form. I believe there is a mountain tiger family from the original tiger system. I've always felt that ching kang would be one of the mountain tiger forms. Just my opinion, and there is no other reason for me to think so than a hunch.

As for other tiger forms, there is the golden tiger form floating around. It's like a more challenging version of ching kang. Those two, plus flying tiger (which I believe is actually only one-third of the original form, comprise what has been taught out of the "original" tiger system. It's my understanding there was a tiger system from honan (probably eighteen forms, but I'm not sure). Within that system, there are supposed to be five "families" of sub-systems: white tiger, flying tiger, golden tiger, mountain tiger....and something else. Again, this is from a very brief conversation with a master, and I'm not sure of the validity, so please do not start selling this as gospel. Anyway, the original tigers move a lot differently than the black tigers. There seems to be more focus on flow and fluidity rather than sheer brutality. Take for example, ching kang. When compared to the black tigers, it is easy to see that they are....well, two different animals. The same is true of golden tiger. However, when you compare ching kang, golden tiger, and even flying tiger, it's easy to find some similarities.

When one looks at the golden tiger form, it's easy to see how the sister system forms teach tiger movements. There's a lot in there that comes straight from lian u chang and chie chuan. One can also find similarities in the black tigers. Second tiger makes use of the side hand strike and turning the body a lot like lian u chang, for instance. (Just curious: are you learning the black tigers yet, or are you just trying to get an idea of what to expect?)


Man, this is a lot nicer than....well, you know...

[Leto]

I know the black tigers. I've never seen the golden tiger advertised, I must have missed it. I am in the west, and stared in 2002. I've heard similar rumors from teachers, like there are eighteen forms of each style and weapon, of which only one or a few have been taught to us.
I always had a suspicion that Fei Hu CHu Tong was either created as a "beginner" tiger form from bits of longer forms, or was a shortened section or version of some longer form. This is done in lots of styles, especially karate (where the founder or a forefather invents a new, easier kata for beginners).

[MasterKiller]

What do your Flying Tiger forms look like?

There is a series of Mantis/Long Fist forms called Little, Middle, and Large Tiger-Swallow Fist, but sometimes they're translated as Flying Tiger Fist.

[Judge Pen]

What do your Flying Tiger forms look like?

There is a series of Mantis/Long Fist forms called Little, Middle, and Large Tiger-Swallow Fist, but sometimes they're translated as Flying Tiger Fist.

The "flying tiger" set that we have is very short and very basic. As mentioned above, its strongly suspected that it is only part of a larger form. Interestingly, I've seen the form little tiger swallow fist performed before and in my opinion, it was very similar to the two china hand sets we have (Lien U Chang ~ Five Directional Palm; Chie Chien ~ Interconnecting Fist) which, as discussed above, are identified as sister forms to our Golden Tiger sets. Its not the same form, but there a simularity in the flow and sequence of techniques in the LTS form that mirrors our china hand sets. For whatever that's worth.

[Golden Tiger]

What do your Flying Tiger forms look like?

Part of the little one can be seen in the "Fight Science " clip someone here posted. Let me find it and I will give you the time coordinates.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0NKHVvGUS0

EDIT--Little Tiger Swallow

[Golden Tiger]

Fei Hu Cho Tung* 1:53-1:59 from the grab cross trap to the dbl strike out in a rt bow stance

before that, is our Lo Han Chien form . the opening at least

[MasterKiller]

link? :confused:

[Golden Tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G-dyrBtcyQ&mode=related&search


Sorry MK, I thought your post was the link to it.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0NKHVvGUS0

EDIT--Little Tiger Swallow


GT, I'll defer to your opinion, but to me this form contains many of the same elements of interconnecting fist and a tad bit fo 5 directional palm. What do you think?

[Judge Pen]

Fei Hu Cho Tung* 1:53-1:59 from the grab cross trap to the dbl strike out in a rt bow stance

before that, is our Lo Han Chien form . the opening at least


Move for move. I think I'll post parts of these forms for comparision.

[tattooedmonk]

might I add that he does those moves as well as a blue belt

[BlueTravesty]

now we have shaolin monks copying our material!!:rolleyes: what next Shaolin Do will be declared by the PRC to be authentic Shaolin and all you pityful little worms will have to fall to your knees and beg for instruction!!!:eek: :D

LOL!

Now if someone can only come up with a hypothesis on how the Monks traveled back in time to make their "SD-Based" HongQuan an ancient style. I'm guessing it involves Qigong. :D

[Flying-Monkey]

LOL!

Now if someone can only come up with a hypothesis on how the Monks traveled back in time to make their "SD-Based" HongQuan an ancient style. I'm guessing it involves Qigong. :D

Oh brother.:rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

Oh brother.:rolleyes:

Hey FM...do you have ground monkey forms in your system?

[Flying-Monkey]

We have five monkeys: Lost, wood, stone, tall and drunken.

[Baqualin]

We have five monkeys: Lost, wood, stone, tall and drunken.

I'm not real familar with alot of monkey forms...but curious, would you mind to briefly (if possible) describe the differences in the above forms......... except maybe the drunken and what your favorite is.

[tattooedmonk]

We have five monkeys: Lost, wood, stone, tall and drunken. I guess the answer is no then right?? of course you do not...because Master Sin made them all up and they are not real shaolin forms anyway and are a mish mosh of stuff all thrown together ...right???

...I wonder where people think grandmaster sin and/or Ie chang ming had the time to make all of this stuff up from the lineage to the forms to the system ..considering master sin was running a school had a family and was getting an education...

to make all this **** up would be close to impossible... ..it would take life times...or could it be that the SDA and CSC are in on it with master sin and have been just making it all up as they go along as a marketing ploy to sell their own brand of Shaolin :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Flying-Monkey]

I guess the answer is no then right?? of course you do not...because Master Sin made them all up and they are not real shaolin forms anyway and are a mish mosh of stuff all thrown together ...right???

...I wonder where people think grandmaster sin and/or Ie chang ming had the time to make all of this stuff up from the lineage to the forms to the system ..considering master sin was running a school had a family and was getting an education...

to make all this **** up would be close to impossible... ..it would take life times...or could it be that the SDA and CSC are in on it with master sin and have been just making it all up as they go along as a marketing ploy to sell their own brand of Shaolin :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I never said they made it up.

Dude, I am not going to argue with you anymore. This is because it does not matter if I am right or wrong. It does not matter if I bring facts or not. It does not matter if I give you logic reasons or not. You will never believe me or other people's post. I bet if GM The was on his death bed and said that SD was not what he says and that he throw it together, most SD people would not believe him.

With that being stated, do not quote me with your smarta$$, heart-led comments.

[Flying-Monkey]

I'm not real familar with alot of monkey forms...but curious, would you mind to briefly (if possible) describe the differences in the above forms......... except maybe the drunken and what your favorite is.

Lost:
The monkey seems lost and confused, but always ready to attack.

Wood:
The monkey is crafty and tricky: bending and stringing back like wood.

Tall:
higher stances longer arm attacks

Stone:
Think of the Alpha male in a troop of monkeys or a shrewdness of apes. Also think of a tough body and bute force.

[Baqualin]

Lost:
The monkey seems lost and confused, but always ready to attack.

Wood:
The monkey is crafty and tricky: bending and stringing back like wood.

Tall:
higher stances longer arm attacks

Stone:
Think of the Alpha male in a troop of monkeys or a shrewdness of apes. Also think of a tough body and bute force.

Thanks..this gives me a good idea of what your talking about now...do you have a favorite of these and is there any videos of your system out there anywhere...I'd love to see it....not to criticize, I'm not into that...I'm just very interested. My only experience with Monkey forms is a Shaolin monkey form GSM taught us a few years ago, which was a low level form he taught just to introduce us (it was very playful) and the ground monkey he's teaching now. We also have A Monkey section in our 8 animal Baqua...which happens to be my favorite section and the reason I'm very curious about the monkey style ....there's really not alot of information out there. I'm waiting for the day that GSM will teach out Monkey Baqua. Thanks again, I appreaciate your responses...BQ

[ninthdrunk]

I love the monkey system, and so I also appreciate your analysis of the monkey forms. I've heard the names before, but didn't know what the exact differences were...kinda make sense, and they're pretty close to what I figured.

Thanks a bunch. If you have videos or anything else available, I'd also love to see them! I understand if you're not keen on posting them here, though.


Baqualin - apparently, shaolin monkey fist is the first form in the monkey system, first ground monkey is the second and second ground monkey is the third. To me, that's the best thing ever. Now we have three monkey forms to go along with all the other systems we have three forms of. Somethign is pretty cool about having the fist three as well. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get some more, but hey, I've waited awhile (not as long as others, of course) for these monkey forms!

[Baqualin]

Baqualin - apparently, shaolin monkey fist is the first form in the monkey system, first ground monkey is the second and second ground monkey is the third. To me, that's the best thing ever. Now we have three monkey forms to go along with all the other systems we have three forms of. Somethign is pretty cool about having the fist three as well. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get some more, but hey, I've waited awhile (not as long as others, of course) for these monkey forms!

I feel the same...even though I only study internal systems, I've always had an interest in Monkey styles and will study all the ones GMS teaches us. I'm thinking that GMS will continue on in this system since he seems to be teaching it separate from the larger seminars...there's always been an interest regarding Monkey forms in SD. Being an internalist though I would really love some Monkey Pakua:D
We're lucky to have Flying Monkey stop by here....I'm a little familar with his lineage....it's the real deal and he has a wealth of knowledge to share if willing;)

[Baqualin]

We are getting ready for Golden Leopard I & II in a couple of weeks. Great stuff. I'm only a white sash (will test for yellow that week), so I'm a tad unsure of what to expect right now.

You will be lost in the analysis, but get an acupuncture doll or charts with all the pressure points on them and take a breathing and meditation class as soon as it's available, then practice for ten years and by then you might know whats going on. Other than that it's high speed combinations to pressure points using leopard fist, Dragon dot fist, feet, elbows and knees (3rd & 4th road for the later). The advantage of taking this as a white sash, is if you seriously study this form it will greatly inhance your speed and power which will be very useful in your sparring, the rest will come with time;) .

[Flying-Monkey]

Thank you for that complement, but I know very little about CMA I am still learning just like everyone else.

I wouldn't say I have a favorite monkey. I have see them performed but I am far knowing the complete system.

[Invincible Yang]

I've never been exposed to this style, what kind of info do you have on it?
I'm like you anything GMS teaches that has to do with the shaolin monkey i'll be there.

[ricardocameron]

I guess the answer is no then right?? of course you do not...because Master Sin made them all up and they are not real shaolin forms anyway and are a mish mosh of stuff all thrown together ...right???

...I wonder where people think grandmaster sin and/or Ie chang ming had the time to make all of this stuff up from the lineage to the forms to the system ..considering master sin was running a school had a family and was getting an education...

to make all this **** up would be close to impossible... ..it would take life times...or could it be that the SDA and CSC are in on it with master sin and have been just making it all up as they go along as a marketing ploy to sell their own brand of Shaolin :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No, TTM, he got all that $ht from BOOKS and VIDEOS, and made the rest up... :rolleyes:

[ricardocameron]

Move for move. I think I'll post parts of these forms for comparision.

I wrote to him in care of his wushu org., but have yet to hear anything back. Those moves are just too co-inkydental...I just bet he studied some SD! But would he let on that it's not all WUSHU.... Oh, wait, that's what we do anyway....:D

[kwaichang]

The more of the Vids I see that are posted the more I can see SD as a true CMA. There are just too many similarities. Body mechanics etc. KC

[Flying-Monkey]

Please post some SD videos so we can compare.

[tattooedmonk]

No, TTM, he got all that $ht from BOOKS and VIDEOS, and made the rest up... :rolleyes:...I pretty much figured that out after the first class. (I knew it was not real shaolin because of the uniforms, the terminology, and that hairy guy...who would believe such a thing???)...that is why I spent 15 years studying,practicing, and teaching it.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .....by the way ...it is all made up by someone !!

[tattooedmonk]

The more of the Vids I see that are posted the more I can see SD as a true CMA. There are just too many similarities. Body mechanics etc. KC...correct...but..because no one outside of SD has or knows this lineage and because of the outward appearence and terminolgy it can not be real TCMA..:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G-dyrBtcyQ&mode=related&search


"Please post some SD videos so we can compare."

Flying Monkey: Alex Hyung is doing our forms in this video. It's not just coincidental. No one stood up and yelled "That's not kung fu!"

[Baqualin]

...correct...but..because no one outside of SD has or knows this lineage and because of the outward appearence and terminolgy it can not be real TCMA..:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You guys must be getting bored without all the attacks on us...now your talking to yourselfs:cool:

Check out the Tai Shing videos on a new thread....some pretty cool stuff:D

Also who all is coming to Lex. this weekend for the 2nd road of the Ground Monkey

[The Xia]

Alex Hyung is doing our forms in this video. It's not just coincidental. No one stood up and yelled "That's not kung fu!"
Actually, many complained about the modern Wushu of Alex Huynh.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42741

[Baqualin]

Actually, many complained about the modern Wushu of Alex Huynh.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42741

THE XIA
On the KFM article, it says that Alex Huynh isn't just a Wushu champion but also a "Shaolin Dragonfist" stylist. Still, it was pretty lousy of them to do the style vs. style B.S.. In addition, a lot of their historical facts were innaccurate. However, the show did have good points to it.[QUOTE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The complaints were not his forms but his size and power. We only stated the fact.....the forms he showed are some of our lower level Material. That said, in the context of the show I agree with your statement above:) BQ

[Judge Pen]

Actually, many complained about the modern Wushu of Alex Huynh.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42741

Alex Huynh did tradtional for several years prior to wushu. He is combining the moves of two of SDs most fundamental forms in his demonstration.

[The Xia]

I just brought to light that Fight Science’s use of Alex Huynh was not without criticism.

Baqualin,
If you read through that thread, there are complaints of him being a modern Wushu stylist.

[Judge Pen]

And my point was that he was doing SD's material and no one said that wasnt' kung fu. They complained about his wushu weapons, but not his empty hand sets (which are both taught within the first year of taking an SD class)

[Flying-Monkey]

This is my advice to SD guys. If you think you do kung fu, that is fine. if people think you don't do kung fu let them (us) be fools. And don't make comment that will whack the bee hive. I think this thread has not change anyone's mind.

[Judge Pen]

This is my advice to SD guys. If you think you do kung fu, that is fine. if people think you don't do kung fu let them (us) be fools. And don't make comment that will whack the bee hive. I think this thread has not change anyone's mind.

What comment is "whacking the beehive?" I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, but that video illustrated a point--if someone does an SD form well and does it in CMA trappings, then most people wouldn't complain or even know the difference. Heck, my wife knows part of the form that Alex H was doing and she studied SD for less than 6 months.

[The Xia]

I was responding to this.

No one stood up and yelled "That's not kung fu!"

[Judge Pen]

I was responding to this.

I read the thread. They complained about his punching, his use of wushu weapons and, most of all, the whole style vs style comparison on things like punching power etc. The only complaint of his "form" came from a "WTF was up with that double kick from a kung fu guy. Never seen that before." and "he punched like Bruce Lee, not a shaolin monk" and "A wushu guy who plays at gymnastics (with tinfoil weapons thrown in to boot )"

Did I miss anything?

[Baqualin]

I was responding to this.

Wasn't saying you were and like JP only talking about the short open hand demo.
By the way we do the post training like the ninji......it came from CMA....so did the death strike to the chest:cool:

[Baqualin]

Hey JP
How's your wife doing.....when is the baby due?:)

[The Xia]

“bestow a title such as Wushu Master as if it were some old style traditional system instead of a sport”

“I saw a wushu expert being comapared to a serious boxing instructor, and a world class Muay Thai boxer...”

“And for fun we can throw in some Wushu weapon play by clueless gymnast. bouncing all over the mat... nice......”

“Give me a break, guy. The wushu guy wasn't the best choice, but he was probably all of 135 lbs soaking wet and still managed to hit 2/3 as hard as the boxer. They also gave him props for his speed.”

“And, by the way, did they have to pick a wu shu guy,
for crying out loud, wu shu people have no power, they’re liking
jumping gazelles before the lions pounce on them.”

“Rather than try to legitimize the art of Wushu by comparing Wushu boy up against real martial arts competitors which only made him look wanting in the prowess factor”

“Instead they go out and get Wushu experts (although some fight...most do nothing but gymnastics)”

“IMO they did not have a panel of experts from the respective arts. They had performance artists (wushu) compared to ring fighters.”

“There is also a distinct possible that this wushu guy isn't his top choice and he was turned down by various other kung fu people.”

“but then when it comes to cma, wushu is definitely not the best representation of it.”

[Baqualin]

“bestow a title such as Wushu Master as if it were some old style traditional system instead of a sport”

“I saw a wushu expert being comapared to a serious boxing instructor, and a world class Muay Thai boxer...”

“And for fun we can throw in some Wushu weapon play by clueless gymnast. bouncing all over the mat... nice......”

“Give me a break, guy. The wushu guy wasn't the best choice, but he was probably all of 135 lbs soaking wet and still managed to hit 2/3 as hard as the boxer. They also gave him props for his speed.”

“And, by the way, did they have to pick a wu shu guy,
for crying out loud, wu shu people have no power, they’re liking
jumping gazelles before the lions pounce on them.”

“Rather than try to legitimize the art of Wushu by comparing Wushu boy up against real martial arts competitors which only made him look wanting in the prowess factor”

“Instead they go out and get Wushu experts (although some fight...most do nothing but gymnastics)”

“IMO they did not have a panel of experts from the respective arts. They had performance artists (wushu) compared to ring fighters.”

“There is also a distinct possible that this wushu guy isn't his top choice and he was turned down by various other kung fu people.”

“but then when it comes to cma, wushu is definitely not the best representation of it.”

Your point:confused:

[Judge Pen]

Hey JP
How's your wife doing.....when is the baby due?:)

October 30th!!! :eek:

Ok Xia, let me ask you this. Take my comparisions to SD off the table. The empty hand set that Alex H did in the youtube video that is referenced here--does that offend your notions of what is CMA?

[The Xia]

I was responding to this.

Did I miss anything?

[Judge Pen]

Ok. What's your opinion then? Respond to my question.

Take my comparisions to SD off the table. The empty hand set that Alex H did in the youtube video that is referenced here--does that offend your notions of what is CMA?

[Baqualin]

I was responding to this.

Sorry, My bad:D

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Judge Pen;711866]October 30th!!! :eek:
[/B]WOW Halloween baby...boy or girl:) ...I raised 3 boys...oldest is coming home from Iraq in Dec. can't wait to see him. Is this your first...if so, I hope you have a gym at home:D

[Flying-Monkey]

What comment is "whacking the beehive?" I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, but that video illustrated a point--if someone does an SD form well and does it in CMA trappings, then most people wouldn't complain or even know the difference. Heck, my wife knows part of the form that Alex H was doing and she studied SD for less than 6 months.

I have been to CMA tournaments were I seen things that i felt were not kung fu. I am not going to jump on the floor and yell at them.

There was this one time when I was at a tournament whiching womens boardsword. The head judge stopped this one girl and asked "Did you really learn this weapon." Her eyes began to get watery and the judge said, " Ok ok! start again." The way she was handling that sword she could have hurt herself.

The clothes have little to do with it. The forms that do seem like CMA are done poorly. However, there are forms that look like I don't know what.

Bee hive comments have been written by Tattooed monk and Kwaichang.

[Judge Pen]

[QUOTE=Judge Pen;711866]October 30th!!! :eek:
[/B]WOW Halloween baby...boy or girl:) ...I raised 3 boys...oldest is coming home from Iraq in Dec. can't wait to see him. Is this your first...if so, I hope you have a gym at home:D

Girl. I don't have a gym at home, but one really close to home (2mins).

FM: I agree that clothes have little to do with it...except for this: If Alex H. was wearing a gi and barefoot and doing what he called kung fu, I think people would be more vocal in their opposition.

"I have been to CMA tournaments were I seen things that i felt were not kung fu. I am not going to jump on the floor and yell at them."

I have too :eek:

I agree that I have done some forms that seem CMA poorly. :D What did you think of the clip at issue of Alex H.?

[Flying-Monkey]

it is only a small part of a form. I have seen a similar form. However, some of his movements COULD be seen as wrong. When he does a punch in the horse stance, his butt is sticking out too far and his chest is arching up. His chest is almost above his knees. That is a beginers mistake who doesn't have good balance while punching in this stance. It is ok if your but sticks out a little, but you don't want to arch your back like that. It is true I have seen wushu guys do this, because of the high speed of they forms, but doing the punch like that in my opinion and in my experience takes the root of power from the punch. Also, when he hit the bag, he was doing "Chop Suey" no power punches that probably wouldn't give you a bloody nose. His tornado kick had what i call "a flat spin" and it was too high. This is VERY popular in wushu

The form is "ok" but it was done poorly for a forms champion.

HOWEVER

From what I have seen, SD guys don't make wushu mistakes. They do CMA forms in a kempo format. A few are ok, but a lot of them are very strange.

I would like to see the SD verion.


This is my opinion.

[Judge Pen]

it is only a small part of a form. I have seen a similar form. However, some of his movements COULD be seen as wrong. When he does a punch in the horse stance, his butt is sticking out too far and his chest is arching up. His chest is almost above his knees. That is a beginers mistake who doesn't have good balance while punching in this stance. It is ok if your but sticks out a little, but you don't want to arch your back like that. It is true I have seen wushu guys do this, because of the high speed of they forms, but doing the punch like that in my opinion and in my experience takes the root of power from the punch. Also, when he hit the bag, he was doing "Chop Suey" no power punches that probably wouldn't give you a bloody nose. His tornado kick had what i call "a flat spin" and it was too high. This is VERY popular in wushu

The form is "ok" but it was done poorly for a forms champion.

HOWEVER

From what I have seen, SD guys don't make wushu mistakes. They do CMA forms in a kempo format. A few are ok, but a lot of them are very strange.

I would like to see the SD verion.


This is my opinion.

The two forms are blended together by the editing. It starts out in Lo Han Chien is edited to Fei Hu and then switches back and forth between the two. The only difference I saw in the forms (other than his flashy bow before Lo Han) was he struck with a double tiger claw after the double elbow up. SD hits with a closed hand.

[The Xia]

I didn't want this to escalate into a flame thread because of what I say about this guy but the die is cast...so here it goes. I agree with what Flying Monkey said. His behind was sticking out way too much and his back was arched to a degree unseen in TCMA. The behind sticking out and arched back is very common in PRC Wushu. Longfist styles have wide stancework. Stances are also much deeper then other Chinese styles. However, you do not arch your back and stick out your behind if you are doing a traditional style, even if it is a Longfist. The back should remain straight and the behind in. You may lean forward, especially in a deep and wide stance, but the back doesn't arch and the behind stays in. IMO, it is much more difficult to do it the traditional way then to stick the behind out and arch the back. In fact, it's a common mistake you see in many students. A good teacher will correct it. That is, unless you are taking PRC Wushu. Then that’s the way to go.

Ok, time to dodge the vegetables. :D

[Judge Pen]

That's all well and good guys, but I was asking about the structure of the forms themselves not the angle of the back or butt on the horse stance. I understand that the forms were edited etc., but do the structure of the two forms offend any of your concepts of CMA.

FM I think you have answered this, but Xia hasn't.

[The Xia]

From what little I watched of the form, he seems to be doing it in a PRC Wushu way. The whole arched back, butt-out is a giveaway that it isn't traditional. Check out other PRC Wushu videos and you'll see it in there. A stance done in the way demonstrated by Alex Huynh (The PRC Wushu way) looks far more dynamic then the traditional stance. Therefore, my guess is it's done to make the person look more pleasing to the eye. Judge Pen, if you go to a Longfist school, it's likely you'll see beginner students doing this and getting corrected. Unless you are used to deep and wide stances, it relieves the stress if you stick your butt out and arch the back. Try it out and you'll see what I mean (unless you are used to deep and wide stances). Giving in to the body’s tendency to stick the behind out and arch the back is incorrect though. Therefore, students need to remove that habit. A good stance that is deep and wide will keep the back straight and the behind in. The person may lean forward though. Besides the form stuff, Alex Huynh lacks power. PRC Wushu is all about speed with no power. I don’t have enough of the form on hand to judge it point by point. The stance is glaringly PRC Wushu though. I also agree with everything Flying Monkey said about Alex Huynh. Would you like me to answer anything else Judge Pen?

By the way,
Congratulations on the baby. :)
Do you have a name yet?

[Flying-Monkey]

let me say this. i will probably get flack from both sides. MA is a bunch of punches, kicks etc. Each martial art has a way to do these techniques. Kung fu has a wide range of punches, kicks etc. However, on the most part, kung fu has some things that are generally true about almost all of them (styles in Kung fu). JMA has some general things about its styles.

MA is a bunch of soft drinks (the liquid). Kung fu is Coca cola; KMA is mountain dew; wushu is Coke with ice (a little watered down); JMA is Sprite etc. The bottles that these soft drinks come in is what shapes them; it is what gives them their characteristics. Shaolindo reminds me of pepsi. It has some similarities to Coca cola about the taste is not the same. Now, I feel that GM The is trying to put Pepsi is a coke bottle and sell it as coke. It can fool some people, but the people who really like coke (TCMAist) can taste the difference.

I know it is corny but that is how it seems.

[tattooedmonk]

no one has answered yet as to what TCMA looks like or does not look like....because a great deal of the forms I have seen posted on the youtube site look almost,if not exactly, like the forms we do and you seem to think that they are "KUNGFU"...so what is the dif?

[The Xia]

There have not been any videos posted of what you guys consider to be good Shaolin Do. If someone posts some videos of what he considers to be good Shaolin Do we can compare.

[sunfist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I71QWscRlc

Is this SD bagua?

[Flying-Monkey]

I don't know what the hell that was.

[Judge Pen]

From what little I watched of the form, he seems to be doing it in a PRC Wushu way. The whole arched back, butt-out is a giveaway that it isn't traditional. Check out other PRC Wushu videos and you'll see it in there. A stance done in the way demonstrated by Alex Huynh (The PRC Wushu way) looks far more dynamic then the traditional stance. Therefore, my guess is it's done to make the person look more pleasing to the eye. Judge Pen, if you go to a Longfist school, it's likely you'll see beginner students doing this and getting corrected. Unless you are used to deep and wide stances, it relieves the stress if you stick your butt out and arch the back. Try it out and you'll see what I mean (unless you are used to deep and wide stances). Giving in to the body’s tendency to stick the behind out and arch the back is incorrect though. Therefore, students need to remove that habit. A good stance that is deep and wide will keep the back straight and the behind in. The person may lean forward though. Besides the form stuff, Alex Huynh lacks power. PRC Wushu is all about speed with no power. I don’t have enough of the form on hand to judge it point by point. The stance is glaringly PRC Wushu though. I also agree with everything Flying Monkey said about Alex Huynh. Would you like me to answer anything else Judge Pen?

By the way,
Congratulations on the baby. :)
Do you have a name yet?


Thanks man. No name yet.

Xia, I understand what you are saying, but it still seems that you are complaining of the performance and not the form. I'm asking about the form not the incorrect way someone may be doing stances. I can show you the same form, but its going to have all the things that I do wrong go along with it (my stances are the best and my flexibility is horrible so I compensate in incorrect ways sometimes to do a particular form). The performance isn't the point--its the structure of the set that I'm asking about.....were the techniques cma, ima, jma or other?

FM, if you'd use a whiskey analogy, I'd follow it better. Funny thing is here in TN, everything is called a Coke--literally. "What kind of Coke do you want?" "Sprite."

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I71QWscRlc

Is this SD bagua?

No. Not even close.

[Flying-Monkey]

FM, if you'd use a whiskey analogy, I'd follow it better. Funny thing is here in TN, everything is called a Coke--literally. "What kind of Coke do you want?" "Sprite."

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

[Judge Pen]

Its the same with martial arts: Everything is karate, TKD or tai chi. "What kind of karate do you do?" "kung fu"

[tattooedmonk]

There have not been any videos posted of what you guys consider to be good Shaolin Do. If someone posts some videos of what he considers to be good Shaolin Do we can compare...you posting a video of you doing a form or two, seeing as you are such an expert on what is and is not shaolin and / or kung fu and /or TCMA ,and let us all decide as to whether it is or is not shaolin or kung fu or TCMA....then one of us will do the same ...only seems fair....you seem to be leading the charge here and quite frankly you have proven nothing other than you are a keyboard martial artist who lives vicariously through others and has no skills of their own to speak of other than talking SH*T!!! You are overly critical of others , biased, lack any depth or openmindedness and continue to talk in circles about the same SH*T over and over ....I think you should put up or shut up !!!!

[tattooedmonk]

Thanks man. No name yet.

Xia, I understand what you are saying, but it still seems that you are complaining of the performance and not the form. I'm asking about the form not the incorrect way someone may be doing stances. I can show you the same form, but its going to have all the things that I do wrong go along with it (my stances are the best and my flexibility is horrible so I compensate in incorrect ways sometimes to do a particular form). The performance isn't the point--its the structure of the set that I'm asking about.....were the techniques cma, ima, jma or other?

FM, if you'd use a whiskey analogy, I'd follow it better. Funny thing is here in TN, everything is called a Coke--literally. "What kind of Coke do you want?" "Sprite."he does the moves like a blue belt ...but they are clearly TCMA techniques....Xia trying to dismiss them as modern wushu is just crazy...seeing as these forms have been done in SD for at least what at 30-40 years.....

[kungfujunky]

www.dhao-lin.com

good forms on the vid there imo:

green dragon broadsword...he is doing it a bit slow but the stance work and control are awesome.

chainwhip broadsword: awesome weapon control

the staff form (pong) by jr: great stances great kicks great control

there are a couple others but those are my favorites. again all of the forms are done slower than what you people call real kung fu but we do that so each little nuance is shown.

as far as snap and power. well most of the demo people had done testing that weekend as well as learning a new form so all of them were a bit worn out at the point the demos were done.

if you want to see some of us o film then post yourselves doing a form and one of us will gladly post a similar form for comparison.

to be honest i think this post is silly anymore.

it has been proven that what we do is not made up. a wushu champ does some of our material.

other original kung fu forms show stuff that we do.

our kung fu took a more colorful route in reaching america so it has a different flavor. but it is kung fu nonetheless

[Judge Pen]

You mean www.shao-lin.com?

I agree there are some good videos there (like the ones you mentioned). There's also a few BAD ones including the people doing hua and chen tai chi. Sorry if that offends anyone and I'm certainly not saying that I do any of them better.

Here's a more direct link: http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=28

Personally, the chainwhip and the dao and chainwhip forms are my favorites.

[Yao Sing]

If Shaolin Do is legitimate Shaolin Kung Fu then how can you point to another Shaolin practitioner and say he's doing OUR forms?

Wouldn't he just be doing a Shaolin form that's also in your branch of Shaolin Kung Fu?

I get the impression you're claiming he swiped a couple of your sets.

[Judge Pen]

If Shaolin Do is legitimate Shaolin Kung Fu then how can you point to another Shaolin practitioner and say he's doing OUR forms?

Wouldn't he just be doing a Shaolin form that's also in your branch of Shaolin Kung Fu?

I get the impression you're claiming he swiped a couple of your sets.

There are sets that do not seem to be practiced anywhere else outside of SD. I thought these two sets were some of them. Apparently I was wrong. I don't know if the sets were swiped or taught in another lineage outside of SD. I know who his first teacher was and what he used to teach, but I'm not making any acuasations. My point was that someone else is doing a set that is clearly part of SD's curriculim (and not widely known outside of SD) and it appears to be accepted as kung fu (the practitioner's form issues aside). Still lost?

[kungfujunky]

we say that to prove the point that is so richly debated here.

since you all claim we do not do shaolin kung fu when someone else is doing it we say they are doing what we do to prove the point that we are doing shaolin kung fu

also we get the impression no matter what proof we offer you will continue to deny it

so whats the point anymore?

[Judge Pen]

we say that to prove the point that is so richly debated here.

since you all claim we do not do shaolin kung fu when someone else is doing it we say they are doing what we do to prove the point that we are doing shaolin kung fu

also we get the impression no matter what proof we offer you will continue to deny it

so whats the point anymore?


Heck, "shaolin" is such a generic term. I'd agree with the above, but just take the word shaolin out of it.

"since you all claim we do not do kung fu when someone else is doing it we say they are doing what we do to prove the point that we are doing kung fu"

[Baqualin]

This has nothing to do with this thread but in case you guys didn't see these vid's take a look.....these are of a 60 yr. old Master in the Monkey King's system that Flying Monkey is studying....JP & KFJ pay attention to his back foot placement in the low stances & landings....no roll over to the arch side , foot is always flat on the ground and at the proper angle ....his biomechanics are awesome....KFJ this is a great example for you to take note of as someone who wants to teach. His form reminds me of Master Ben's in the Lex. school (except for the age difference:D )
Here is Master Chow Keung... 2 of the sets were done slow, I am guessing for one of his students...

Gow jow kwun, 9 continents staff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7hf1rqnsi4

Double Handed Broadsword:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdfiZe6xRr0

Lost Monkey Form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz7QLd2Qh34

[Baqualin]

we say that to prove the point that is so richly debated here.

since you all claim we do not do shaolin kung fu when someone else is doing it we say they are doing what we do to prove the point that we are doing shaolin kung fu

also we get the impression no matter what proof we offer you will continue to deny it

so whats the point anymore?

The point is our forms are real and it's up to each of us in SD that are serious MA to take what we enjoy and try to master it the best we can...we're dealing with a handful of people here on these forums who just like us will believe what they believe no matter what, I've met some really knowledgeable people on here like flying monkey, Yao sing, citong sifu, MK, & others that have my respect (even they can be a pain in the butt). With that said I could care less what they think of SD....33 years has proven more than enough for me. I have eyes that see and have been watching for 40 yrs....heck I was doing Baqua before most MA even knew what it was.....I will gladly post a video of me doing this if someone will help me...KC? Not to prove a point, but to receive constructive criticism...to improve!

So the point really is it's all a matter of opinion and we all know what that means;)

By the way FLM my favorite soft drink is Pepsi I like the flavor!!!

[The Xia]

Thanks man. No name yet.

Xia, I understand what you are saying, but it still seems that you are complaining of the performance and not the form. I'm asking about the form not the incorrect way someone may be doing stances. I can show you the same form, but its going to have all the things that I do wrong go along with it (my stances are the best and my flexibility is horrible so I compensate in incorrect ways sometimes to do a particular form). The performance isn't the point--its the structure of the set that I'm asking about.....were the techniques cma, ima, jma or other?
First off, let me start out by saying that I'm only judging the bit of the form I watched from Alex Huynh, not any of the other stuff shown on that clip. From what I see, is it a TCMA form? I'd say it was (from what little I saw). Was it performed in a traditional manner? Nope. It screamed contemporary Wushu to me. His stance was one of the biggest giveaways. Doing what he did doesn't generate power and doesn't provide a stable stance. That's why you will not see it from a skilled traditionalist. Contemporary Wushu is all about aesthetics. A skilled contemporary Wushu player has a lot of speed, flexibility, and agility. They are tremendous athletes. However, it is not martial arts. They have a complete lack of power, applications are unheard of, etc. There is nothing martial about it. Contemporary Wushu takes martial forms and strips it of everything martial while dazzling it up. That is what I saw in the brief clip of Alex Huynh's performance. It may be a traditional form, but it didn't look like it was done traditional to me. It looked like contemporary Wushu. I didn't see power, the stance work was off, etc.

[Flying-Monkey]

I watched the video from the SD site. I must say, without a doubt, that .....

[Flying-Monkey]

it is not kung fu.

[kungfujunky]

what a comprehensive and well thought out answer

:rolleyes:

[Flying-Monkey]

..you posting a video of you doing a form or two, seeing as you are such an expert on what is and is not shaolin and / or kung fu and /or TCMA ,and let us all decide as to whether it is or is not shaolin or kung fu or TCMA....then one of us will do the same ...only seems fair....you seem to be leading the charge here and quite frankly you have proven nothing other than you are a keyboard martial artist who lives vicariously through others and has no skills of their own to speak of other than talking SH*T!!! You are overly critical of others , biased, lack any depth or openmindedness and continue to talk in circles about the same SH*T over and over ....I think you should put up or shut up !!!!

What is your obsession with The Xia posting forms? I basically agree with everything he states. However, you do not badger me to post forms of myself. It does not matter if he is a master or just someone who studies CMA has a hobby and does not practice. Everything he is writing is true.

His questions go unanswered. His opinions are ignored. Which I feel is unfortunate for the people who do not listen.

[Flying-Monkey]

what a comprehensive and well thought out answer

:rolleyes:

you are welcome.

[BentMonk]

First off, let me start out by saying that I'm only judging the bit of the form I watched from Alex Huynh, not any of the other stuff shown on that clip. From what I see, is it a TCMA form? I'd say it was. Was it performed in a traditional manner? Nope. It screamed contemporary Wushu to me. His stance was one of the biggest giveaways. Doing what he did doesn't generate power and doesn't provide a stable stance. That's why you will not see it from a skilled traditionalist. Contemporary Wushu is all about aesthetics. A skilled contemporary Wushu player has a lot of speed, flexibility, and agility. They are tremendous athletes. However, it is not martial arts. They have a complete lack of power, applications are unheard of, etc. There is nothing martial about it. Contemporary Wushu takes martial forms and strips it of everything martial while dazzling it up. That is what I saw in the brief clip of Alex Huynh's performance. It may be a traditional form, but it didn't look like it was done traditional to me. It looked like contemporary Wushu. I didn't see power, the stance work was off, etc.

I am curious. On what knowledge and experience do you base your criticisms? I'm not trying to be antagonistic. Your writing style indicates that you consider yourself to be some what of an authority on TCMA. I would like to know your qualifications.

I have had a life long interest in MA, TCMA in particular. I am very well read on the subject. I have studied formally for 12 years. I consider my credentials to be meager at best. That is why you will not find me being overly critical of anyone. I am still a beginner. IMO anyone with less than 10 years experience doing most things is not qualified to offer more than an educated opinion.

Again, I am not trying to be disrespectful. I just feel that if someone is going to speak with authority on a subject, they should be able to readily validate that authority.

[BentMonk]

it is not kung fu.

Please elaborate.

[Baqualin]

First off, let me start out by saying that I'm only judging the bit of the form I watched from Alex Huynh, not any of the other stuff shown on that clip. From what I see, is it a TCMA form? I'd say it was (from what little I saw). Was it performed in a traditional manner? Nope. It screamed contemporary Wushu to me. His stance was one of the biggest giveaways. Doing what he did doesn't generate power and doesn't provide a stable stance. That's why you will not see it from a skilled traditionalist. Contemporary Wushu is all about aesthetics. A skilled contemporary Wushu player has a lot of speed, flexibility, and agility. They are tremendous athletes. However, it is not martial arts. They have a complete lack of power, applications are unheard of, etc. There is nothing martial about it. Contemporary Wushu takes martial forms and strips it of everything martial while dazzling it up. That is what I saw in the brief clip of Alex Huynh's performance. It may be a traditional form, but it didn't look like it was done traditional to me. It looked like contemporary Wushu. I didn't see power, the stance work was off, etc.

This is your best post yet....I agree with your take on the clip & you didn't repeat the words of FLM it was your own words...you've earned my respect:)

[kwaichang]

Hey I will help you I can Video tape it this w/e if you want and convert it to DVD and post it I will be there for the monkey seminar let me know KC

[The Xia]

I posted my opinion because of a request by Judge Pen. I knew I’d get some flack for it. Instead of asking yourself if I am qualified to say such things, ask yourself if you have issues with any of the content of my post. If you do have a disagreement, we can discuss it, so long as you do not use diversionary tactics and are not insulting.


I will elaborate on that stance.

You may be wondering why I am preoccupied with mentioning that stance as evidence for Huynh doing PRC Wushu and not TCMA. It is because it is a mistake often made by complete, first time ever doing martial arts, beginners. Let's look at what is wrong with it. As I said before, when performing a stance that is deep and wide, the untrained body's natural tendency is to stick the behind out and arch the back. It relieves the stress generated by the stance. Let's examine why this is wrong. First, let's state the obvious, good Kung Fu isn't easy. Doing stances correctly may be difficult, but it conditions you. If the stance is done in the way which I criticize, the practitioner will not become properly conditioned for the style. Now, let's look at the martial weaknesses of doing the stance in the manner demonstrated by Huynh. Flying Monkey pointed out that it lacks power. This is true. The most powerful punches come from using the whole body in synch. Power can be derived from the hips and shoulders. Try doing the stance in Huynh's manner. Now try generating power. You'll see what I mean. Next, the stance isn't stable. It's wobbly. Many old school teachers corrected repeated mistakes of wobbly stances by sweeping the student to the ground. Try that stance, and ask yourself if you can be easily swept. Once again, you'll see what I mean. The stance done in the manner demonstrated by Huynh may be aesthetically pleasing, but it is not martial. It's a red flag that the person is either a traditionalist that needs work, someone with a bad teacher, or a contemporary Wushu artist.

[Flying-Monkey]

Please elaborate.

I will try.

Master Matt Small's broad sword was not good. He is a master, but he is showing poor right and left hand technique. The left hand has a job went doing broad sword. It should be moving most of the time. However, I noticed it stays in front of his chest. One important thing is that the technique where he wraps the sword around his back then up over his shoulder is wrong. The slashes and thrusts are wrong too. There are almost no stances in that form except for a cat and halfass bow stance once in a while.

As for Abram Tamez, I have never seen the form he is doing, so I cannot comment on the on the pattern. However, his stances are terrible (kind of like my spelling at times). The movements were strange at best.

And the guy wearing the rice farmer hat in the background while Abram was doing his form need an ass kicking.

I am at work now some I will comment later.

[tattooedmonk]

What is your obsession with The Xia posting forms? I basically agree with everything he states. However, you do not badger me to post forms of myself. It does not matter if he is a master or just someone who studies CMA has a hobby and does not practice. Everything he is writing is true.

His questions go unanswered. His opinions are ignored. Which I feel is unfortunate for the people who do not listen....why not post some then?? it does matter if he is some bull sh*t talking keyboard martialartist or a real authentic martialartist...you can not sit on the sidelines and judge or criticize without actual experience..if you are and alcoholic and you wanted to recover who would you trust to help you.... an actual recovered alcoholic or someone who have studied this type of behavior from a book and videoswith no personal experience????get a clue...

his questions have been answered and he has chossen to ignore them...this means that he is too ignorant or stupid to see the truth ...this goes for you as well ......all we have heard from him( and you) is his(your) opinion....... and you know what they say ...opinions are like a$$holes.......everyones got one...but all I hear is ****s and all I can smell is $hit!!!

[tattooedmonk]

I will try.

Master Matt Small's broad sword was not good. He is a master, but he is showing poor right and left hand technique. The left hand has a job went doing broad sword. It should be moving most of the time. However, I noticed it stays in front of his chest. One important thing is that the technique where he wraps the sword around his back then up over his shoulder is wrong. The slashes and thrusts are wrong too. There are almost no stances in that form except for a cat and halfass bow stance once in a while.

As for Abram Tamez, I have never seen the form he is doing, so I cannot comment on the on the pattern. However, his stances are terrible (kind of like my spelling at times). The movements were strange at best.

And the guy wearing the rice farmer hat in the background while Abram was doing his form need an ass kicking.

I am at work now some I will comment later. and why is this not kung fu?? I know why it is not ...but it has nothing to do with the form...like I said when these forms were first presented it is the performers and not the contents of the form... these are authentic chinese shaolin forms.. the techniques, no matter how badly they are performed, are clearly chinese in origin!!!they are in forms that have been posted on this forum ....so explain that...and not some bull sh*t half a$$ed explanation either!!!

[tattooedmonk]

I will try.

Master Matt Small's broad sword was not good. He is a master, but he is showing poor right and left hand technique. The left hand has a job went doing broad sword. It should be moving most of the time. However, I noticed it stays in front of his chest. One important thing is that the technique where he wraps the sword around his back then up over his shoulder is wrong. The slashes and thrusts are wrong too. There are almost no stances in that form except for a cat and halfass bow stance once in a while.

As for Abram Tamez, I have never seen the form he is doing, so I cannot comment on the on the pattern. However, his stances are terrible (kind of like my spelling at times). The movements were strange at best.

And the guy wearing the rice farmer hat in the background while Abram was doing his form need an ass kicking.

I am at work now some I will comment later.abram is suppose to be performing tiger crane duet form and he is doing it awfully!!!

[Baqualin]

Hey I will help you I can Video tape it this w/e if you want and convert it to DVD and post it I will be there for the monkey seminar let me know KC

Bring your camera!!:cool:

[Baqualin]

abram is suppose to be performing tiger crane duet form and he is doing it awfully!!!

I didn't even recognize it.

[Invincible Yang]

Hey Baqualin, how many monkey forms are there in shaolin-do? Also missed you in class today.

[tattooedmonk]

I didn't even recognize it.if it was not for the name ..nor would I have!!!

[Flying-Monkey]

and why is this not kung fu?? I know why it is not ...but it has nothing to do with the form...like I said when these forms were first presented it is the performers and not the contents of the form... these are authentic chinese shaolin forms.. the techniques, no matter how badly they are performed, are clearly chinese in origin!!!they are in forms that have been posted on this forum ....so explain that...and not some bull sh*t half a$$ed explanation either!!!

It is not kung fu. The things you know about kung fu can fit on the back of a matchbook.

What you posted (your comments) is garbage. Swinging Chinese weapons around does not make it kung fu. So what if the pattern is the same. They are done so poorly one cannot tell which form it is suppose to be. These forms are not done properly. If these are "black belts", then that says a lot about SD.

GM Sin The might of knew kung fu before, but he does not know it now. He is not teaching it.

You are corny and I am tired of you. You are probably in that video.

I tired to debate with other SD guys calmly and everything went well. As soon as you start posting, things got messed up for both sides. You are not helping SD at all.

The weapon forms in that video were ghastly. I won't trust those guys with a potato gun let alone a live blade.

The hand forms showed little understanding of CMA basics. They looked like they learned from a retard in tights.

To the other SD guys: I am sorry. I thought we were doing well in trying to understand each other and trying to get to the bottom of what SD is, what kung fu is and what CMA is. However, tattooedmonk has to put his 2 cent in that hurts SD more than helps. So I am sorry for this post that is out of my character.

To Gene:

If you want to ban me, that is your choice. And I am sorry you feel that way. However, the fact that you didn't ban Tattooed monk months ago troubles me. He has been rude, disrespectful and he posts comments that are baiting people into arguments.

[godzillakungfu]

I will try.

Master Matt Small's broad sword was not good. He is a master, but he is showing poor right and left hand technique. The left hand has a job went doing broad sword. It should be moving most of the time. However, I noticed it stays in front of his chest. One important thing is that the technique where he wraps the sword around his back then up over his shoulder is wrong. The slashes and thrusts are wrong too. There are almost no stances in that form except for a cat and halfass bow stance once in a while.

As for Abram Tamez, I have never seen the form he is doing, so I cannot comment on the on the pattern. However, his stances are terrible (kind of like my spelling at times). The movements were strange at best.

And the guy wearing the rice farmer hat in the background while Abram was doing his form need an ass kicking.

I am at work now some I will comment later.HAHAHAHAHA. You hit 2/3 on the dot.

Sorry, MS actually does good stance work. He is usually very picky. Picky to the point he can be an ......! I still wonder who picks the vids.

FM next time send it in a PM. You raise valid points IMO. That is why you aren't getting beat down.

The XIA posts come across as angryr so, he gets more attention.

Basically, you sound like you doubt but, you are seriously trying to get answers.

The Xia, for the most part, sounds like he is flaming. No offense XIA.


Hey, put TTM on ignore. I like your posts.

[The Xia]

I have exercised a lot of self-restraint, even before Gene's warnings (notice how I dealt with tattooedmonk calling me an idiot?). I left the thread for awhile and returned only to bring to light that Alex Huynh isn't without criticism. Then, I was asked what I think of Alex Huynh's form performance on that clip. I answered the question, which came from the rational and friendly Judge Pen, despite the fact that I knew some on this thread would ignore the content of the post and look to the poster. Alex Huynh has nothing to do with Shaolin Do. Therefore, whatever I say about his performance on the clip should be fair game according to the new rules. There was no flaming involved. I was politely asked a question and I politely responded. Judge Pen, who asked the question, didn't make any comments about my post being a flame post. The one whom I answered the question for didn’t take issue with me. Those who did take issue with what I said, I expected that. However, I answered because Judge Pen asked me. Besides commentary on Alex Huynh’s form, I stated a fair point, "There have not been any videos posted of what you guys consider to be good Shaolin Do. If someone posts some videos of what he considers to be good Shaolin Do we can compare." I see nothing flaming about that post. It was, however, met with tattooedmonk's insulting replies, which I ignored.

[kungfujunky]

what type of form should we present here for you all?

[godzillakungfu]

FM asks questions.
You demand answers.

Both are similar but, they recieve different responses.

I can't be any less confusing.

I was explaining to FM why, IMO, he wasn't getting jumped on like you.


Everyone has their posting style that is why, I said no offense. It is my opinion.

[tattooedmonk]

It is not kung fu. The things you know about kung fu can fit on the back of a matchbook.

What you posted (your comments) is garbage. Swinging Chinese weapons around does not make it kung fu. So what if the pattern is the same. They are done so poorly one cannot tell which form it is suppose to be. These forms are not done properly. If these are "black belts", then that says a lot about SD.

GM Sin The might of knew kung fu before, but he does not know it now. He is not teaching it.

You are corny and I am tired of you. You are probably in that video.

I tired to debate with other SD guys calmly and everything went well. As soon as you start posting, things got messed up for both sides. You are not helping SD at all.

The weapon forms in that video were ghastly. I won't trust those guys with a potato gun let alone a live blade.

The hand forms showed little understanding of CMA basics. They looked like they learned from a retard in tights.

To the other SD guys: I am sorry. I thought we were doing well in trying to understand each other and trying to get to the bottom of what SD is, what kung fu is and what CMA is. However, tattooedmonk has to put his 2 cent in that hurts SD more than helps. So I am sorry for this post that is out of my character.

To Gene:

If you want to ban me, that is your choice. And I am sorry you feel that way. However, the fact that you didn't ban Tattooed monk months ago troubles me. He has been rude, disrespectful and he posts comments that are baiting people into arguments.you stll have yet to answer the questions that have been asked by SDers..we have been more than happy to answer yours now you answer ours...go back through the posts and reread them and see where you have not and then post a response...quit your crying..... you are suppose to be a martial artists ...my posts reflect my opinion based on my experince,facts, and views ..you are have yours iIhave mine.....

[Flying-Monkey]

What's the question?

[Judge Pen]

FM, I specifically liked the chain whip videos that were at the CSC site. Could you comment on those please. And understand that the Chinese Shaolin Center, the SDA, and my teacher's group all learned from the same place, but there's often large differences on how each group may be taught or the material might be performed. So there's always a bit of politics involved in commenting on forms from another school. There was A LOT about those videos that I didn't like either and agree with the points you and the Xia made. There were some pretty good forms there too.

For the record, I didn't recognize the Tiger-Crane form either. After I noticed the name of the form I had to re-watch it twice to figure out what part of the form he was doing, and this is one of my favorite forms. Go figure.

[BentMonk]

Since when does poor form determine authenticity? My stances are deplorable. My body mechanics are flawed. Does this make the Xing Yi I practice not a TCMA? I use Xing Yi because it is one thing that some SD practitioners have been complimented on. Also, it seems that whenever evidence is presented that SD is CMA, ie; the videos that have been posted recently, it is dismissed as poorly performed wushu, or chalked up to coincidence. It seems there is nothing that will appease either side of this debate. Perhaps KC and friends can help.

[SDJerry]

Over three thousand posts and where are we... exactly where we began. The dead horse is barely recognizable anymore :D I think if you had to post a clip of yourself before criticizing others this puppy wouldn't have made it past 20.

[Golden Tiger]

I agree there are some good videos there (like the ones you mentioned). There's also a few BAD ones including the people doing hua and chen tai chi. Sorry if that offends anyone and I'm certainly not saying that I do any of them better.

Here's a more direct link: http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=28


Finally got around to watching this one. I wasn't aware that it had been put up.

And for my humble opinion, that is a decent representation of SD, content and performace wise. I say that because most of the forms (more on that later) were close to how they were taught. And as to the performances, if you take a cross section of SD, that is what you will get. None if any are professional MA's that spend 20 hours of the day working out.

As to the material itsself. I thought it was funny how while the newer stuff they did was extremely close to what we do, the older things like Tiger-Crane, pang lung pang, tang lang chien, hua chien..etc, weren't even close. They were done ok I guess, but it was not close to the way that Master Sin taught them out, and I learned them when he taught them out.

I guess that just shows what years of isolation can do to the evolution of the forms. And it wasn't so much things added and lost, but more the intent of the moves gone. Oh well.

But again, I will stand by my statement that content wise, that was pure SD.

[Green Cloud]

it is not kung fu.

Sorry for jumping in here so late my flash player wasn't working. Just to be objective after watching the SD vids I can see that it has a lot of Kung Fu influence but it's definately not traditional Kung Fu.

The SD players seem to be Jack of all trades but masters of none, it was quite evident that more than a few styles were mixed together.

Some of the Videos looked Northen in their movement but The names realy don't match the forms. For instance the guy performing Chen Tai Chi looked nothing like Chen, If you don't believe me just go to u tube and type in Chen tai Chi.

It seems that the Kung Fu moves are in there but Karate fied and choppy at times.

Once again I am speaking from an objective point of view and not as a traditionalist.

As a traditionalist I'd have to say that these forms are kempo and as kempo does they have borrowed stuff from a lot of styles. For instance the Broad sword play resemled the movements of a machety not a traditional Dan Dao.

The two man Pak gwa was real but the demonstartors were to rigid wich made the form look unrecognizable. Almost like a Karate guy who learned it on video but was unable to grasp the fluidity.

Any way I'm not here to debate wether or not SD is real or not. Obviously it exists so it's real. Wether it's real bad Kung Fu or real good Kung Fu is the real question here.

[Green Cloud]

it is not kung fu.

Sorry for jumping in here so late my flash player wasn't working. Just to be objective after watching the SD vids I can see that it has a lot of Kung Fu influence but it's definately not traditional Kung Fu.

The SD players seem to be Jack of all trades but masters of none, it was quite evident that more than a few styles were mixed together.

Some of the Videos looked Northen in their movement but The names realy don't match the forms. For instance the guy performing Chen Tai Chi looked nothing like Chen, If you don't believe me just go to u tube and type in Chen tai Chi.

It seems that the Kung Fu moves are in there but Karate fied and choppy at times.

Once again I am speaking from an objective point of view and not as a traditionalist.

As a traditionalist I'd have to say that these forms are kempo and as kempo does they have borrowed stuff from a lot of styles. For instance the Broad sword play resemled the movements of a machety not a traditional Dan Dao.

The two man Pak gwa was real but the demonstartors were to rigid wich made the form look unrecognizable. Almost like a Karate guy who learned it on video but was unable to grasp the fluidity.

Any way I'm not here to debate wether or not SD is real or not. Obviously it exists so it's real. Wether it's real bad Kung Fu or real good Kung Fu is the real question here.

[Judge Pen]

Sorry for jumping in here so late my flash player wasn't working. Just to be objective after watching the SD vids I can see that it has a lot of Kung Fu influence but it's definately not traditional Kung Fu.

The SD players seem to be Jack of all trades but masters of none, it was quite evident that more than a few styles were mixed together.

Agreed. That was easy. There's the argument that the way SD's curriculim is put together that your skills improve and you become a master of SD, but that's not the same thing as saying that you are a master of any of the individual styles that are represented in SD.

Some of the Videos looked Northen in their movement but The names realy don't match the forms. For instance the guy performing Chen Tai Chi looked nothing like Chen, If you don't believe me just go to u tube and type in Chen tai Chi.

Agreed. I don't like this representation of Chen Tai Chi. I don't know the entire form, but he is not doing it like the Chen I've seen elsewhere.

It seems that the Kung Fu moves are in there but Karate fied and choppy at times.

Agreed. If you watch master The' and his senior students, many of them are power oriented and that certainly changes the nature of the forms and the principles of power generation from time to time. I don't think it was a karate person learning a chinee form but a person putting their own spin on how a form should be done--i.e. hard and snappy--and that changes the intent of the form.

Once again I am speaking from an objective point of view and not as a traditionalist.

As a traditionalist I'd have to say that these forms are kempo and as kempo does they have borrowed stuff from a lot of styles. For instance the Broad sword play resemled the movements of a machety not a traditional Dan Dao.

I wouldn't say kempo because I honestly believe that the Japanese influence on SD was more cosmetic than anything. I would say kung tao (NOT Silat) in that the forms became something different based upon interpretation as passed through Indonesia and then Kentucky. Look at what GT said about how the CSC forms have changed from how he learned them years ago. Its the same principle displayed on a more local level. But to me Kempo implies more of a Japanese influence than I actually think is present here. Ask any JMA person and they would deny that SD is anything like karate.

The two man Pak gwa was real but the demonstartors were to rigid wich made the form look unrecognizable. Almost like a Karate guy who learned it on video but was unable to grasp the fluidity.

The Pa Kua form is as real as it gets. It is taught more rigid then CMA people perform it. Many high level people learn to losen up and become fluid, but only those that really practice it and study the 64 principles and try to apply them to their form (yes all 64 principles are passed down in the notes, but often times the form is passed on too quickly and the emphasis is too rigid.

Any way I'm not here to debate wether or not SD is real or not. Obviously it exists so it's real. Wether it's real bad Kung Fu or real good Kung Fu is the real question here.

Obviously my comments were in bold.

[Green Cloud]

It's alway nice talking to you JP:)

[Fei jiao]

If you watch master The' and his senior students, many of them are power oriented and that certainly changes the nature of the forms and the principles of power generation from time to time.

Power oriented?
What makes you think power has to be stiff? What makes you think soft and fluid means powerless? Those are concepts that are hard to grasp unless you've taught by a traditional Chinese martial arts master.


The Pa Kua form is as real as it gets. It is taught more rigid then CMA people perform it.

So you agree that SDers aren't CMAers?

[taichi4eva]

For all the SD practicioners,

I'm at UCLA right now and while I was at the gym, I met a freshmen who does Shaolin Do. I asked if he could demonstrate his "lo han chien" (fist of lohan) and "se mun tau lie" (four gates). The forms seemed really strange to me- I couldn't identify some of the stances (I don't practice Southern Shaolin so I don't know), and the hand postures seemed really awkward. Plus, the other thing that got to me was that he would transition from a middle horse stance to one where his behind must have been inches from the floor!

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but can somebody tell me what's the purpose? These forms were supposed to be beginner forms. And Shaolin forms are usually very "clear" at the beginning.

[Judge Pen]

Power oriented?
What makes you think power has to be stiff? What makes you think soft and fluid means powerless? Those are concepts that are hard to grasp unless you've taught by a traditional Chinese martial arts master.



So you agree that SDers aren't CMAers?

I don't think that power has to be stiff, but I think that snap and directness are encouraged in SD and that creates a problem in interpreting a CMA form. I don't think it has to be this way, but many of the senior level students perform them this way. Other students do not, and you get a divergence within SD whith neither being the way many TCMA would recognize it.

I think that the forms were CMA and I think that the way they have been taught and passed down through Indonesia and then in America have given them their own unique flavor. Like the difference between Scotch Whisky and Bourbon Whiskey.

[Judge Pen]

For all the SD practicioners,

I'm at UCLA right now and while I was at the gym, I met a freshmen who does Shaolin Do. I asked if he could demonstrate his "lo han chien" (fist of lohan) and "se mun tau lie" (four gates). The forms seemed really strange to me- I couldn't identify some of the stances (I don't practice Southern Shaolin so I don't know), and the hand postures seemed really awkward. Plus, the other thing that got to me was that he would transition from a middle horse stance to one where his behind must have been inches from the floor!

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but can somebody tell me what's the purpose? These forms were supposed to be beginner forms. And Shaolin forms are usually very "clear" at the beginning.

These are beginer forms taught in SD. I honestly believe that "se mun tai lie" to use your spelling is nothing more than an excercise/drill that was made into a "form". I think this form is designed to teach power transfer while switching from a horse stance to a bow stance. I don't think the hand positions are ackward, but I don't know how it was demo'ed for you. His but should NOT have been that low in a horse (bad for the knees), but we do teach that stances should be at butt at knee level (not lower unless its the low reverse bow stance).

Lo Han Chien is part of the forms that Alex H. performed on the "Fight Science" video. (He is NOT SD by the way). It doesn't appear to me to be the same and the traditional shaolin Lo Han sets that I've seen referenced here. It has more more of a mantis/monkey footwork to it (at leaset it should if done correctly). This form emphasizes shrinking and exanding in the application and moving through the target. Lo Han Chien, however, is such a generic term and (with the exception of Alex H.) I've never seen anyone outside of SD do a form that looked substantially the same.

[Baqualin]

Power oriented?
What makes you think power has to be stiff? What makes you think soft and fluid means powerless? Those are concepts that are hard to grasp unless you've taught by a traditional Chinese martial arts master.

We are taught fluidity and softness by GMS and upper level masters within the system...you can't generate fai jing by being stiff...these concepts are hard to grasp period...most students in SD only have a few hours a week to practice and we all know this will not turn you into a world champion....most people are not like a few of us on here, they have a life outside of MA it's only a hobby for them & thats all they want, but guess what they pay the bills so we can have a gym to study in & a teacher to teach.


So you agree that SDers aren't CMAers?


Your starting to sound like a politician...didn't see that at all from his statement:confused:

[Baqualin]

Golden Tiger
As to the material itsself. I thought it was funny how while the newer stuff they did was extremely close to what we do, the older things like Tiger-Crane, pang lung pang, tang lang chien, hua chien..etc, weren't even close. They were done ok I guess, but it was not close to the way that Master Sin taught them out, and I learned them when he taught them out. [QUOTE]

I slightly disagree......Chen Tai Chi, Chen Tai Chi fan, Yang Tai Chi Broad Sword and Budda Fist were nothing like what I was taught

I slightly agree...those videos are a cross section of SD in general as GT said, but not the heart of SD...all the tools to become a TCMA's are there in SD, it's just up to the individual to what direction he pursues

[godzillakungfu]

The differences need to be left alone. I will say this most of the East SD is uniform. Not all but many of the people I encountered in the East do things similar.

Due to a myriad of different reasons the West went out of control. Which led to some major shake ups as they(MS & SS) tried (try) to regain control.

Basically, anyone with about 12-15 years (or longer) will look similar to the East.

Also, rank doesn't denote years out west. Not going to rehash the past but, some you older guys know what I'm talking about. One of the above mentioned people in FM's post is a prime example.

[taichi4eva]

Thanks for the info, Judge Pen.

It makes a lot more sense now...

[Baqualin]

Green Cloud
As a traditionalist I'd have to say that these forms are kempo and as kempo does they have borrowed stuff from a lot of styles. For instance the Broad sword play resemled the movements of a machety not a traditional Dan Dao[QUOTE]

Your absolutely correct but that isn't how the form should be performed....once again most of these guys in the vid are not professionals...just everyday people having fun....it's hard to train over a thousand people scattered all over the country with different instructors to look like Jet Li

[Baqualin]

The differences need to be left alone. .

Also, rank doesn't denote years out west. Not going to rehash the past but, some you older guys know what I'm talking about. One of the above mentioned people in FM's post is a prime example.

Practice what you preach...we don't need to open that can of worms;) BQ

[godzillakungfu]

The can of worms was actually opened with the East vs West differences. :)

Hey, didn't say specific names. Just giving an example like everyone else.

[Baqualin]

The can of worms was actually opened with the East vs West differences. :)

Hey, didn't say specific names. Just giving an example like everyone else.

Just joking with you....I not happy with a lot the performances or politics I see in the east including some of my own.:) Most of that is due to the size we've grown...which after 40 years of cranking out MA's it kinda explains everything if you open your eyes:cool:

[Fei jiao]

Your starting to sound like a politician...didn't see that at all from his statement:confused:

That's because you pasted the wrong statement to which I was responding (come on guys!!!)

Judge Pen said : "The Pa Kua form is as real as it gets. It is taught more rigid then CMA people perform it."

To which I said: So you agree that SDers aren't CMAers?

Get it? More rigid than CMA people, implying that SDers aren't CMA people.

[kungfujunky]

That's because you pasted the wrong statement to which I was responding (come on guys!!!)

Judge Pen said : "The Pa Kua form is as real as it gets. It is taught more rigid then CMA people perform it."

To which I said: So you agree that SDers aren't CMAers?

Get it? More rigid than CMA people, implying that SDers aren't CMA people.

that was not implied at all. he was simply saying we are taught it differently than others

reaching a bit on that one werent you?

[Fei jiao]

I think that the forms were CMA and I think that the way they have been taught and passed down through Indonesia and then in America have given them their own unique flavor. Like the difference between Scotch Whisky and Bourbon Whiskey.

Ok, so you agree that the Sd forms aren't Shaolin Kung fu in it's original form. In other words it's modified, like Kuntao (as someone mentioned).

The thing is, Kuntao people don't deny that their stuff isn't chinese. Only influenced by chinese martial arts. So if it took a different flavor through Indonesia and America do we agree that it isn't pure CMA anymore?

(Don't want to sound like a politician, just try to see if I understood you right)

[Fei jiao]

that was not implied at all. he was simply saying we are taught it differently than others

reaching a bit on that one werent you?

I don't believe so. He was talking about the way Pa kua was taught in SD in comparison to CMA people. When you make a comparison between two things, isn't is implying they're different from each other?

[kungfujunky]

well i was taught geometry differently than my son is ...so does that mean it is no longer geometry?

[Fei jiao]

Oh boy! :rolleyes:

So to your son a triangle isn't the same as a triangle to you?

p.s. I understand that you just don't want to understand

[kungfujunky]

no you miss my point as i expected



because something is taught differently it does not make it any less real or authentic

[Judge Pen]

I don't believe so. He was talking about the way Pa kua was taught in SD in comparison to CMA people. When you make a comparison between two things, isn't is implying they're different from each other?

Most of the time I can speak for myself. :eek:

What I meant was that most CMA people the do PaKua are taught the material in a different way than SD. I think the material is the same, but the full understainding isn't always gleaned because the student is lazy. We are taught the form and the principles, but then, soon after we reach the point we can do all the palm changes by memory, we are taught something new. Because of this, most of us only get a rudimentary understanding of Pa Kua. Some really put the effort in interpreting the 64 "principles and get the flow and rhythm that most CMA people associate with Pa Kua. Its a curse of learning too much material that is so diversified: details get lost or glossed over. So that is a difference in SD and someone who teaches PaKua primarily. They narrow their focus when SD broadens it.

"Ok, so you agree that the Sd forms aren't Shaolin Kung fu in it's original form. In other words it's modified, like Kuntao (as someone mentioned). "

Sure, it has evolved into something different. I doubt ANYONE knows what shaolin kung fu looks like in its original form. Do this for me: Take your favorite form, the one you know by heart and can perform in your sleep. Tape yourself doing that form. Now hide the tape, but continue to do the form every day for the next 25 years. Then tape yourself again. I'll bet dollars to donuts that there will be noticeable difference in the form (and I'm not talking about any deteriorated physical ability). This phenomenon only gets amplified when the forms are then passed on to students who cloud the forms transmission with their own perceptions and body mechanics.

"The thing is, Kuntao people don't deny that their stuff isn't Chinese. Only influenced by Chinese martial arts. So if it took a different flavor through Indonesia and America do we agree that it isn't pure CMA anymore?"

Kung Tao is simply saying kung fu in Indonesian. Many Kung Tao places claim dubious lineages and claim to teach a diversity of material including tai chi, hsing i and Pa Kua. Many kung tao schools say they are doing pure kung fu. I disagree with your assumption that they don't deny their stuff isn't Chinese.

[Fei jiao]

What I meant was that most CMA people the do PaKua are taught the material in a different way than SD. I think the material is the same, but the full understainding isn't always gleaned because the student is lazy. We are taught the form and the principles, but then, soon after we reach the point we can do all the palm changes by memory, we are taught something new. Because of this, most of us only get a rudimentary understanding of Pa Kua. Some really put the effort in interpreting the 64 "principles and get the flow and rhythm that most CMA people associate with Pa Kua. Its a curse of learning too much material that is so diversified: details get lost or glossed over. So that is a difference in SD and someone who teaches PaKua primarily. They narrow their focus when SD broadens it.

"Ok, so you agree that the Sd forms aren't Shaolin Kung fu in it's original form. In other words it's modified, like Kuntao (as someone mentioned). "

Sure, it has evolved into something different. I doubt ANYONE knows what shaolin kung fu looks like in its original form. Do this for me: Take your favorite form, the one you know by heart and can perform in your sleep. Tape yourself doing that form. Now hide the tape, but continue to do the form every day for the next 25 years. Then tape yourself again. I'll bet dollars to donuts that there will be noticeable difference in the form (and I'm not talking about any deteriorated physical ability). This phenomenon only gets amplified when the forms are then passed on to students who cloud the forms transmission with their own perceptions and body mechanics.



Point taken. I agree that learning too much material is counterproductive.




"The thing is, Kuntao people don't deny that their stuff isn't Chinese. Only influenced by Chinese martial arts. So if it took a different flavor through Indonesia and America do we agree that it isn't pure CMA anymore?"

Kung Tao is simply saying kung fu in Indonesian. Many Kung Tao places claim dubious lineages and claim to teach a diversity of material including tai chi, hsing i and Pa Kua. Many kung tao schools say they are doing pure kung fu. I disagree with your assumption that they don't deny their stuff isn't Chinese.

I was reffering to the DeThouars family. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for other schools.

[tattooedmonk]

Over three thousand posts and where are we... exactly where we began. The dead horse is barely recognizable anymore :D I think if you had to post a clip of yourself before criticizing others this puppy wouldn't have made it past 20....that has been turned into glue which has stuck us all together....

[tattooedmonk]

Since when does poor form determine authenticity? My stances are deplorable. My body mechanics are flawed. Does this make the Xing Yi I practice not a TCMA? I use Xing Yi because it is one thing that some SD practitioners have been complimented on. Also, it seems that whenever evidence is presented that SD is CMA, ie; the videos that have been posted recently, it is dismissed as poorly performed wushu, or chalked up to coincidence. It seems there is nothing that will appease either side of this debate. Perhaps KC and friends can help.but these are the things that make it not kung fu

[Radhnoti]

For Fei jiao, from a deThouars website:
"Kun Tao, also spelled "kuntao" or "kuntaw," has best been described as "old Gongfu." It is an archaic form of Chinese martial arts that has largely remained untouched with the passage of time – practiced within the isolated Chinese ethnic enclaves of Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines. The fundamental roots of Kun Tao may be found in the Chinese internal martial arts of Hsing le, Taiji, and Pa Kua."
Here's the link:
http://www.mindspring.com/~achentaiji/kun%20tao.htm

[Baqualin]

Most of the time I can speak for myself. :eek:

What I meant was that most CMA people the do PaKua are taught the material in a different way than SD. I think the material is the same, but the full understainding isn't always gleaned because the student is lazy. We are taught the form and the principles, but then, soon after we reach the point we can do all the palm changes by memory, we are taught something new. Because of this, most of us only get a rudimentary understanding of Pa Kua. Some really put the effort in interpreting the 64 "principles and get the flow and rhythm that most CMA people associate with Pa Kua. Its a curse of learning too much material that is so diversified: details get lost or glossed over. So that is a difference in SD and someone who teaches PaKua primarily. They narrow their focus when SD broadens it.

"Ok, so you agree that the Sd forms aren't Shaolin Kung fu in it's original form. In other words it's modified, like Kuntao (as someone mentioned). "

Sure, it has evolved into something different. I doubt ANYONE knows what shaolin kung fu looks like in its original form. Do this for me: Take your favorite form, the one you know by heart and can perform in your sleep. Tape yourself doing that form. Now hide the tape, but continue to do the form every day for the next 25 years. Then tape yourself again. I'll bet dollars to donuts that there will be noticeable difference in the form (and I'm not talking about any deteriorated physical ability). This phenomenon only gets amplified when the forms are then passed on to students who cloud the forms transmission with their own perceptions and body mechanics.

"The thing is, Kuntao people don't deny that their stuff isn't Chinese. Only influenced by Chinese martial arts. So if it took a different flavor through Indonesia and America do we agree that it isn't pure CMA anymore?"

Kung Tao is simply saying kung fu in Indonesian. Many Kung Tao places claim dubious lineages and claim to teach a diversity of material including tai chi, hsing i and Pa Kua. Many kung tao schools say they are doing pure kung fu. I disagree with your assumption that they don't deny their stuff isn't Chinese.

Sorry JP I couldn't resist....I'll try not to do it again:rolleyes:

[Flying-Monkey]

FM, I specifically liked the chain whip videos that were at the CSC site. Could you comment on those please. And understand that the Chinese Shaolin Center, the SDA, and my teacher's group all learned from the same place, but there's often large differences on how each group may be taught or the material might be performed. So there's always a bit of politics involved in commenting on forms from another school. There was A LOT about those videos that I didn't like either and agree with the points you and the Xia made. There were some pretty good forms there too.

For the record, I didn't recognize the Tiger-Crane form either. After I noticed the name of the form I had to re-watch it twice to figure out what part of the form he was doing, and this is one of my favorite forms. Go figure.

I agree that the chain whip is one of the better forms on that video. I have seen just about all of those techniques elsewhere. However, he should sharpen up that form.

[Fei jiao]

For Fei jiao, from a deThouars website:
"Kun Tao, also spelled "kuntao" or "kuntaw," has best been described as "old Gongfu." It is an archaic form of Chinese martial arts that has largely remained untouched with the passage of time – practiced within the isolated Chinese ethnic enclaves of Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines. The fundamental roots of Kun Tao may be found in the Chinese internal martial arts of Hsing le, Taiji, and Pa Kua."
Here's the link:
http://www.mindspring.com/~achentaiji/kun%20tao.htm

Thank you for pointing that out to me. However, read a little further down:
"Kun Tao / Silat de Thouars is the martial art system created by Willem de Thouars, after a lifetime of study of Chinese and Indonesian fighting styles. In over fifty years of practice "Uncle Bill" has carefully studied a dozen forms of Chinese Kun Tao and some fifteen styles of Indonesian Silat, as well as, numerous other martial and combative arts to synthesize his own unique blend."

So if I read correctly he admits modifying and mixing Chinese and Indonesian arts together. Actually I had formerly heard it from one of Willem de Thouars student. At least they don't go around saying "We are the real original Chinese kung fu".

If Shaolin-Do is a modified version of Chinese martial arts, blended with Indonesian or Japanese influence (and there's nothing wrong with that), why do they claim to be the original Shaolin? If they were honest about where it comes from I'm sure they wouldn't get the criticism they get.

[Radhnoti]

Yes, HIS style is a blend. But I'd argue that the top of the page is their definition of a component of their style, kuntao. Notice they define silat as well. This is certainly not the only school with a "kuntao" background, and I've read the same sentiment elsewhere.
"Old kungfu", "largely untouched"...common statements in kuntao circles. They feel their relative isolation in "Chinese enclaves" led to a (more) pure transmission of information.
At least that's what I've been able to scout out...

[Invincible Yang]

The following is taken from the book Shantung Black Tiger:"Another term that describes chinese hand-to-hand systems is the word kun-tao. This word belongs to the Hokkien dialect. It is a generic term that, like wu-shu, encompasses the study and practice of both empty-hand and weapon tactics, but expresses little of the martial spirit behind them. The ideogram for kun means fist, and that for tao means head; thus kun-tao means "the head of the fist." This definition, however, does not indicate the broad scope of kun-tao methods." "Nevertheless, the term is a popular one, being in common use among the hundreds of millions of chinese and malay people of southeast asia. In fact, in southeast asia, the expression kun-tao is more commonly used than wu-shu, ch'uan-shu, or chuan-fa, which are the terms preferred by the people of northern china."
I thought this might clear up what Kun-tao is.

[Judge Pen]

I agree that the chain whip is one of the better forms on that video. I have seen just about all of those techniques elsewhere. However, he should sharpen up that form.

We can all sharpen up our forms. And isn't having seen those techniques elsewhere indicitive of the fact that they are commonly accepted CMA techniques? At least its not something crazy and made up.

[kwaichang]

Have any of you guys ever heard of Pankration ? KC

[BentMonk]

Have any of you guys ever heard of Pankration ? KC

I've seen several matches. It's been around a lot longer than MMA. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall Rikson Gracie using the "ground & pound" very effectively in more than a few matches. The gear the fighters wear reminds me of the gear that Bruce and Samo wore at the beginning of Enter The Dragon.

[KungFu Student]

Hello all, first time poster here. I have read this thread with interest as of late. I will start out by stating that I take Shaolin-Do at this time. What I find intersting in this thread is the whole "is it TCMA"? And many have issues about the lineage. When I was deciding about which school to attend, I went to several in my area to check them out. I decided on SD for a variety of reasons, the instructor, the atmosphere, and the dedication everyone there had to the art. I did not join because I wanted a history lesson, and quite frankly I could care less. What matters to me most is the results. In my humble opinion, there is no TCMA anymore. I believe this because when many of the traditional instructors left China and came to Europe and the U.S., the art they taught changed, due to the fact they were teaching it to Europeans who had a different outlook on life. Does that mean that the MA that Europeans do is invalid because they do it differently then those from the East? Absolutely not. It just means that the style has evolved.
The lineage of SD is always questioned. Do I believe in it? Not really. Does that make me not a good student? I don't believe so. There are many students that take their training seriously, and I believe are equal to any other practioner of an art. But like any MA, it is all what you put into it.
It seems to me that since many doubt the lineage of SD, and if it is TCMA or not, that they want to write it off as not being good. Just because a style is "traditional" will not give you the ability to make someone's head explode, or turn their bones to jelly. It is a method, like anything else. I am sure that Bruce Lee went through the same issue when he was forming JKD.
I have always believed in giving someone respect if they are a martial artist, no matter what style they have choosen. In my eyes, they have made a choice to work hard at something that most people do not have the discipline to pursue, to challenge themselves to push the boundries of what they think they can do. To call into question the practice of SD because there are those who question it's lineage, or the few video's presentations that have been posted on the forum can be taken as insulting to those that have choosen it as their art and work hard to be the best they can be. I am not saying that we don't have bad practioners, any style does, but we have many good ones as well. We should not be judged on the small amount of students or masters shown on the net, but on the quality of all the students as a whole.

[Judge Pen]

Just because a style is "traditional" will not give you the ability to make someone's head explode, or turn their bones to jelly.

That made me laugh.

Great post. Any school would be proud to have a student with an outlook like you in their midst.

[Baqualin]

Hello all, first time poster here. I have read this thread with interest as of late. I will start out by stating that I take Shaolin-Do at this time. What I find intersting in this thread is the whole "is it TCMA"? And many have issues about the lineage. When I was deciding about which school to attend, I went to several in my area to check them out. I decided on SD for a variety of reasons, the instructor, the atmosphere, and the dedication everyone there had to the art. I did not join because I wanted a history lesson, and quite frankly I could care less. What matters to me most is the results. In my humble opinion, there is no TCMA anymore. I believe this because when many of the traditional instructors left China and came to Europe and the U.S., the art they taught changed, due to the fact they were teaching it to Europeans who had a different outlook on life. Does that mean that the MA that Europeans do is invalid because they do it differently then those from the East? Absolutely not. It just means that the style has evolved.
The lineage of SD is always questioned. Do I believe in it? Not really. Does that make me not a good student? I don't believe so. There are many students that take their training seriously, and I believe are equal to any other practioner of an art. But like any MA, it is all what you put into it.
It seems to me that since many doubt the lineage of SD, and if it is TCMA or not, that they want to write it off as not being good. Just because a style is "traditional" will not give you the ability to make someone's head explode, or turn their bones to jelly. It is a method, like anything else. I am sure that Bruce Lee went through the same issue when he was forming JKD.
I have always believed in giving someone respect if they are a martial artist, no matter what style they have choosen. In my eyes, they have made a choice to work hard at something that most people do not have the discipline to pursue, to challenge themselves to push the boundries of what they think they can do. To call into question the practice of SD because there are those who question it's lineage, or the few video's presentations that have been posted on the forum can be taken as insulting to those that have choosen it as their art and work hard to be the best they can be. I am not saying that we don't have bad practioners, any style does, but we have many good ones as well. We should not be judged on the small amount of students or masters shown on the net, but on the quality of all the students as a whole.

Welcome to the Machine:D

[Flying-Monkey]

I am retiring from this thread. I spoke with my Sifu. He said "If they are not saying what they do is TSPK, then don't worry about them."

I don't care one way or the other at this point.

[Radhnoti]

To me, kuntao, kung-fu, karate, wushu, tae kwon do, etc. are all just...popular boxes to fit something into. It's sort of meaningless unless you know something about the GENERAL points associated with each, and no style always fits perfectly into one box.
Karate, most would say is linear and focused on aggressive external technique.
Kung-fu often works with less direct and flowing motions.
Wushu (in the U.S.) typically refers to kungfu based performance art. Beautiful to watch and highly athletic.
Kuntao is Chinese kungfu based but with Indonesian sensibilities, usually a focus on sparring and functionality. Often in kuntao more is better...more forms, more technique, etc...and they don't care to add things that work from other sources.

These are all just categories...little boxes we put things into to help us with our personal understanding of what things ARE without direct experience. It makes sense, to me, to classify shaolin-do as kuntao because of it's many similarities to OTHER kuntao schools. If kung-fu stylists come to understand that many of the attitudes and claims made by shaolin-do are echoed and repeated in other styles from the Indo-Chinese area...maybe that's the bridge to understanding. Shaolin-do is unique, but not so unique as to be outside the "box" of kuntao, in my opinion.

[Baqualin]

I am retiring from this thread. I spoke with my Sifu. He said "If they are not saying what they do is TSPK, then don't worry about them."

I don't care one way or the other at this point.

Your Sifu is correct...we only do SD and like any organization our size, there will be alot of bad Kung Fu shown along with the good...it all depends on the person...I had eventually hoped to show you some of our better people perform...I really appreciated the TSPK videos posted on the other thread by some of your friends.....we do know what real kung fu is when we see it just like you...that should tell you something. I also don't think we're worth losing any sleep over....we don't give flack...we only catch it;)

I for one hate to see you leave....you bring alot of knowledge to the table and I really enjoy your debates.....stop by once in awhile and say Hi:)

[KungFu Student]

That made me laugh.

Great post. Any school would be proud to have a student with an outlook like you in their midst.

Thank you for your kind words, You humble me. I do not believe that traditional styles are any less effective, far from it. But I think that many people believe just because a certain style is supposedly "traditional" that it is inherently better. I personally do not believe this. Which style is better lies mainly on the skill of the people squaring off against each other. This is my opinion of course, your mileage may vary.

[BentMonk]

Kung Fu Student - Awesome post. Welcome to the thread. With your attitude I am sure you will become an excellent martial artist.

[Green Cloud]

Have any of you guys ever heard of Pankration ? KC

Panckration is an ancient Greek MA system historicaly it was credited with the development of Greco Roman wrestling.

[greencloudtj]

does that anchent greek style consist of doggy style...i mean it is greek right

[The Willow Sword]

Quoted By Kungfu Student


The lineage of SD is always questioned. Do I believe in it? Not really.

Then Why be a part of something that misrepresents themselves and allegedly fabricates its "authenticity"? why would anyone want to be a part of that?

See that is the problem. no-one cares anymore about keeping the history alive and clean and legitamate. No-one cares about integrity and honor anymore.

TWS

[KungFu Student]

Because I do not need history to make myself a better martial artist. That just takes hard work.

[Green Cloud]

does that anchent greek style consist of doggy style...i mean it is greek right

Actualy TJ yes youre right the style resembled Brazilian Jiu Jit su,, gay but effective and after the Greek empire it was perfected by the Romans. You know your Italian ancestors;)

[The Xia]

http://historical-pankration.com/
According to this website, pankration was added to the 33rd Olympiad in 648 BC. It states that it was practiced by the Greeks then the Romans. It would make sense being that the Romans borrowed much from the Greeks. However, there is still the mystery of who the Romans are. Some theorize the Trojans were the ancestors to the Romans. Notable pre-Roman civilization in Italy is Greek civilization. Southern Italy was known as Magna Graecia. There also existed the Etruscan civilization centered in Tuscany, which created the forerunner of the gladiatorial games.

[Green Cloud]

That's a great web site Xia, It seems that Pankration was a complete MA systems.

I'm astounded by how much evidence that is unearthed to support the claims about one of the oldest fighting styles to date.

I feel this is a good topic since the history of Pankrates can be supported from the pictures found from these artifacts.

In relation to SD the only evidence they have to support their claims is Mythology. At least the Greeks were able to differentiate Mythology from History and as ancient as this civilization is they have a ton of evidence to support all their historical data.

[tattooedmonk]

Quoted By Kungfu Student



Then Why be a part of something that misrepresents themselves and allegedly fabricates its "authenticity"? why would anyone want to be a part of that?

See that is the problem. no-one cares anymore about keeping the history alive and clean and legitamate. No-one cares about integrity and honor anymore.

TWSquit your crying...do you want some cheese for that whine??

[godzillakungfu]

Then Why be a part of something that misrepresents themselves and allegedly fabricates its "authenticity"? why would anyone want to be a part of that?

You know TWS, if you kept your emotions out, you make valid points. Then you say the above and lose credibility. Up until your falling out you felt exactly like KFS. Yes, I lurked for a long time. A very long time and I know what happened with your drama.

Of course only by what was written.

[MasterKiller]

So did KC ever get that translation of Sin's certificate yet?

[BentMonk]

The more I think about it, the more likely it seems that SD's history may be true, despite what so many think. If someone were going to use Shaolin kung fu as a money making enterprise, but didn't want to spend decades becoming a real Shaolin master, they could do it much easier than the way people seem to believe GM Sin did. Google, photo-shop, and some creative writing that corresponds with established dates and events in accepted TCMA lore, and they would have enough validity to satisfy 90% of the people on this thread, myself included. We may be well read and well practiced, but there is not one true TCMA expert on this thread. All we are doing here is throwing the same conflicting opinions back and forth. It's interesting diversion that will be around as long as someone from both sides keeps typing. GM Sin is passing on the history and material of Shaolin Do as it was passed to him. When he began teaching in America 40 years ago, the history of TCMA was not as readily available or as sought after as it is today. Even if GM Sin had intended to lie from day one, someone of his obvious intelligence could have constructed something more believable than SD's history. GM Sin has no need to lie. Shaolin Do is a Chinese martial art with roots in the Fukien temple that evolved and traveled through Indonesia and America to become what it is today. I have gotten nothing but positive things from my Shaolin Do training. Many others have as well. :D

[KungFu Student]

You know TWS, if you kept your emotions out, you make valid points. Then you say the above and lose credibility. Up until your falling out you felt exactly like KFS. Yes, I lurked for a long time. A very long time and I know what happened with your drama.

Of course only by what was written.

TWS is entitled to his opinion. The history and lineage of a style are important to him, and there is nothing wrong with that. I personally don't place that much importance on it, but rather on if I like the style, and if it has something to offer me. In my time with SD, it has helped me to achieve the goals I have set out for my self when I first began looking at taking MA. I have lost weight, became stronger, it has challenged me, and I believe has made me a better person. All this without delving into it's history. Again, this is how I am, not trying to insult anyone, but just giving my point of view.

[Citong Shifu]

The more I think about it, the more likely it seems that SD's history may be true, despite what so many think. If someone were going to use Shaolin kung fu as a money making enterprise, but didn't want to spend decades becoming a real Shaolin master, they could do it much easier than the way people seem to believe GM Sin did. Google, photo-shop, and some creative writing that corresponds with established dates and events in accepted TCMA lore, and they would have enough validity to satisfy 90% of the people on this thread, myself included. We may be well read and well practiced, but there is not one true TCMA expert on this thread. All we are doing here is throwing the same conflicting opinions back and forth. It's interesting diversion that will be around as long as someone from both sides keeps typing. GM Sin is passing on the history and material of Shaolin Do as it was passed to him. When he began teaching in America 40 years ago, the history of TCMA was not as readily available or as sought after as it is today. Even if GM Sin had intended to lie from day one, someone of his obvious intelligence could have constructed something more believable than SD's history. GM Sin has no need to lie. Shaolin Do is a Chinese martial art with roots in the Fukien temple that evolved and traveled through Indonesia and America to become what it is today. I have gotten nothing but positive things from my Shaolin Do training. Many others have as well. :D


What maks you think there's "NO" TCMA expert on this thread? I can honestly tell you this, Shaolin-Do itself (name) is not CMA. Shaolin-Do has many forms/tao lu's that are rooted from the Fujian/Fukien Shaolin Temple, this is true, but if you really research the names or translations of your tao lu you will find out that the forms originated during the period when the Okinawan masters trained at Fujian Temple, thus creating the first forms of karate... When the forms made there way back to Okinawa, they were modified once again into modern day Okinawan karate-do....

Now, I'm not saying Shaolin-Do is Okinawan karate, but the translations of Shaolin-Do bird forms, etc evolved when Fujian Shaolin Kungfu was modified by the karate masters....

Please, dont take my word for it, ask you master The', he should know exactly what I'm talking about.... I'm not interested in a big debate on this issue, I could care less. Anyone can research what I've just spoken about, it's no secret..

Me, I'm just interested in my training/art, but I do get somewhat aggitated when people presume there's no TCMA experts on board here... As you guys in Shaolin-Do, I train very hard 7 days a week, nothing part-time. I take my efforts in the CMA very serious... I choose not to say things on this thread due to the relevance of this thread.... Shaolin-Do is a real martial arts, rather its TCMA, who really cares... Marketing and advertising, so what....

The actual question was "Is Shaolin-Do for real", YES... Anything else is a whole entire seperate coversation....

I hope I didnt offend you guys in Shaolin-Do, I wasn't trying to... Your GM The' should be able to answer your questions on my statements....

CS.
Shifu Ron...

[KungFu Student]

What maks you think there's "NO" TCMA expert on this thread? I can honestly tell you this, Shaolin-Do itself (name) is not CMA. Shaolin-Do has many forms/tao lu's that are rooted from the Fujian/Fukien Shaolin Temple, this is true, but if you really research the names or translations of your tao lu you will find out that the forms originated during the period when the Okinawan masters trained at Fujian Temple, thus creating the first forms of karate... When the forms made there way back to Okinawa, they were modified once again into modern day Okinawan karate-do....

Now, I'm not saying Shaolin-Do is Okinawan karate, but the translations of Shaolin-Do bird forms, etc evolved when Fujian Shaolin Kungfu was modified by the karate masters....

Please, dont take my word for it, ask you master The', he should know exactly what I'm talking about.... I'm not interested in a big debate on this issue, I could care less. Anyone can research what I've just spoken about, it's no secret..

Me, I'm just interested in my training/art, but I do get somewhat aggitated when people presume there's no TCMA experts on board here... As you guys in Shaolin-Do, I train very hard 7 days a week, nothing part-time. I take my efforts in the CMA very serious... I choose not to say things on this thread due to the relevance of this thread.... Shaolin-Do is a real martial arts, rather its TCMA, who really cares... Marketing and advertising, so what....

The actual question was "Is Shaolin-Do for real", YES... Anything else is a whole entire coversation....

I hope I didnt offend you guys with Shaolin-Do, I wasn't trying to... Your GM The' should be able to answer your questions on my statements....

CS.
Shifu Ron...

No offence taken here. :) I have no doubt that there are many on the board who have extensive knowledge in TCMA. This is what I was trying to get across, SD is a martial art, traditional or not.

[Radhnoti]

GC - "I'm astounded by how much evidence that is unearthed to support the claims about one of the oldest fighting styles to date...In relation to SD the only evidence they have to support their claims is Mythology."

I was under the impression that the original "Pankration" was lost and it's been reconstructed by modern groups.

A martial art...the original form no longer REALLY taught...just various groups and their interpretations. Hey! You're right, it does have something to do with shaolin/shaolin-do. :D

[BentMonk]

CS - No offense taken. I was also not trying to offend by saying there were no experts on this thread. Your posts have been polite and intelligent. I respect your knowledge. I honestly did not think that anyone who considered themselves a TCMA expert would have the time or inclination to participate in this discussion. Apparently I was mistaken. I was not directing my comment toward any specific person. In your opinion, what qualifies someone as an expert in TCMA? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just curious.

[The Willow Sword]

quit your crying...do you want some cheese for that whine??

TTM, seems like you need a bigger spoon for the BS you eat everyday:rolleyes:




You know TWS, if you kept your emotions out, you make valid points. Then you say the above and lose credibility.

Well we are an emotional species godzillakungfu. I am certainly no robot, nor are the rest of us, and I dont think i have gained or lost any more credability here than the next person,but that is just how i feel about it.

anyway as for KF Student's comments, LIke JP he makes decent comments and even though i disagree with the not caring about the history part, i respect his choice to do what it is he feels he must in order to better himself.
It will be a while before i come back to this thread, My life is about to get very busy and very serious for the next several months and i wont have time to post anything else. Im sure some will be very happy not to have my "input" no matter how IN/ VALID or EMOTIONAL it may be, here in this thread.

But take care all and do what you feel is right in your heart, as i often do, regardless of the consequences.

Take Care All, Peace, TWS:cool:

[Citong Shifu]

CS - No offense taken. I was also not trying to offend by saying there were no experts on this thread. Your posts have been polite and intelligent. I respect your knowledge. I honestly did not think that anyone who considered themselves a TCMA expert would have the time or inclination to participate in this discussion. Apparently I was mistaken. I was not directing my comment toward any specific person. In your opinion, what qualifies someone as an expert in TCMA? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just curious.

Bent Monk, I usually dont participate in this discussion. However, I do follow the debate and from time to time add a comment or two :D . As far as, what qualifies someone as an expert in TCMA, well, I guess that would depend on each persons definition or belief... I personally believe that such a person would be trained extensively in TCMA; tradition, culture, history, theory, principles, etc. Every aspect of traditional training will be learned and perfected (according to art/style). Standards of TCMA are upheld; flexibility, speed, power, stance, stability, posture, applications, etc regardless of age or disability. I know this seems somewhat harsh, but remember, CMA in the old days were only passed to those who were stong enough to complete their training... Anywho, this subject could be talked or debated for months, so lets stop here... The few examples I listed above pretty much covered the question asked, one would just need to sort out which definition goes with which example :D . You know, I understand that the CMA have been so commercialized that its really hard to find experts in TCMA, and its true. Money has come before quality. What a shame... Ok, no soap box ranting.. Talk to you guys later...

CS
Shifu Ron..

[Citong Shifu]

I guess this would be a good time to invite all of you to the MidWest Chinese Martial arts Society (http://groups.msn.com/mid-westchinesemartialartssociety). It's a MSN group site that talks about all different styles of CMA.. If there's not a board for your particular art, one can be added... The group site is not for arguing are things of that nature, but a place to share and debate... Anywho, if interested, come on by and say hello..

CS.

[BentMonk]

CS - You are truly from the "old school". I thank you for your invitation. I will visit soon.

[Golden Tiger]

So did KC ever get that translation of Sin's certificate yet?

I posted a translation of it MK, don't you trust me?:confused:


http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=709720&postcount=3401

[Citong Shifu]

CS - You are truly from the "old school". I thank you for your invitation. I will visit soon.

Bent Monk, Thank you! But, it is I that should commend you on your perseverance and efforts within the martial arts. I just viewed your website, wow! Talk about inspiration... You know, I see martial artist everyday that have nothing holding them back but themselves and laziness, then there's martial artist such as yourself that take full advantage of the benefits that the arts have to offer... Once again, great job!

CS.

[Green Cloud]

Just curious, what does Citon Sifu mean ?? I mean the name not his comments.

[The Xia]

It's a city in China's Fujian province.

[MasterKiller]

I posted a translation of it MK, don't you trust me?:confused:


http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=709720&postcount=3401

I must have missed that. This thread moves pretty fast.

[Citong Shifu]

Just curious, what does Citon Sifu mean ?? I mean the name not his comments.


yes, Citong is the ancient name for the city of Quanzhou (Fujian Prov.) Citong is my sifu's hometown, as with his sifus', except for Wan Laishen. Also, Citong (Quanzhou) was the original location of the Fujian/fukien Shaolin Temple. We use the name Citong to indicate origin of our style/art. Our tradition is Fujian Shaolin Temple Boxing; Shaolin Quan, Louhan Quan, & Di Shu Quan. We also specialize in Chang Quan, Tong Bei Quan, Ziranmen, Lui He Tang Long Quan, & the Internal arts...

I know there is alot of speculation (PRC) as to where the Fujian or Shaolin Temple was first erected, but through our documentation and my sifu's manuals it was Citong/Quanzhou not Putain, which the PRC claims...

Talk to you guys later.
CS (Citong Shaolin Kung Fu Academy)

[BentMonk]

Bent Monk, Thank you! But, it is I that should commend you on your perseverance and efforts within the martial arts. I just viewed your website, wow! Talk about inspiration... You know, I see martial artist everyday that have nothing holding them back but themselves and laziness, then there's martial artist such as yourself that take full advantage of the benefits that the arts have to offer... Once again, great job!

CS.

Thank you for the kind words. I am just trying to use my love of MA and the benefits that training brought me to help others. I was very fortunate to have found my instructors. Their dedication to their own training, and their knowledge enabled them to realistically adapt forms and techniques to suit my needs. I am indebted to them, and the MDs, PTs, OTs, RNs, and many others who help ensure that studying the arts does nothing but help those I train.

[greencloudtj]

Actualy TJ yes youre right the style resembled Brazilian Jiu Jit su,, gay but effective and after the Greek empire it was perfected by the Romans. You know your Italian ancestors;)



well you no the romans are very romantic....:eek:

[kwaichang]

The company refused to translate the document , no reason given. KC

[tattooedmonk]

..to all the people that doubt that SD is a tradtional art , CMA , or Shaolin ......what makes you think this way??

Going by the definition of what tradition is,( latin word traditio meaning "to hand over" or "pass down"),it is obvious SD has traditions which come from many sources they just are not the ones most commonly followed .

Hell most of the traditions that are in modern schools are adaptations from the original ones.

At least we are not wearing monk robes and shaving are heads ( pretending to me monks) or wearing some queer colored trimmed silk which will get torn and ripped from your body the first time someone gets ahold of it!!!

The forms are Chinese in origin ...this seems obvious...how they are performed in demonstrations does not make them any less effective as a martial art or anyless CMA.

for all of you that think CMA is suppose to be pretty ...get a clue... I know plenty of people who have great form but cannot fight their way out of a paper bag ...which is more useful whehter it is effective or pretty???..if it works in a fight then it is a martial art if it does not, but looks pretty, it is dancing.

Many Styles / systems/ forms have been absorbed into Shaolin and many other non Shaolin schools over the centuries .....so why should SD be any different? Just because Hung gar has absorbed Lau gar forms into their curiculum does it make it any less Hung Gar or any less Shaolin??

...so if you all think that just because the outward appearences, different traditions, and styles/ systems make SD not traditional , not CMA , and not Shaolin then you have a lot to learn and need to be more openminded ....

[Citong Shifu]

..to all the people that doubt that SD is a tradtional art , CMA , or Shaolin ......what makes you think this way??

Going by the definition of what tradition is,( latin word traditio meaning "to hand over" or "pass down"),it is obvious SD has traditions which come from many sources they just are not the ones most commonly followed .

Hell most of the traditions that are in modern schools are adaptations from the original ones.

At least we are not wearing monk robes and shaving are heads ( pretending to me monks) or wearing some queer colored trimmed silk which will get torn and ripped from your body the first time someone gets ahold of it!!!

The forms are Chinese in origin ...this seems obvious...how they are performed in demonstrations does not make them any less effective as a martial art or anyless CMA.

for all of you that think CMA is suppose to be pretty ...get a clue... I know plenty of people who have great form but cannot fight their way out of a paper bag ...which is more useful whehter it is effective or pretty???..if it works in a fight then it is a martial art if it does not, but looks pretty, it is dancing.

Many Styles / systems/ forms have been absorbed into Shaolin and many other non Shaolin schools over the centuries .....so why should SD be any different? Just because Hung gar has absorbed Lau gar forms into their curiculum does it make it any less Hung Gar or any less Shaolin??

...so if you all think that just because the outward appearences, different traditions, and styles/ systems make SD not traditional , not CMA , and not Shaolin then you have a lot to learn and need to be more openminded ....


I just wanted to comment on your statement about pretty forms but cannot fight. - There are people in the martial arts who do not wish to learn the fighting aspects or I should say, study comprehensively the fighting applications of their art. They merely use the arts as a means to stay fit and healthy, while maintaining their athletic abilities for personal or performance interests.... Then you have those who dive deep into the arts and there fighting application. These individuals not only perfect their art (look pretty), but can fight very good as well... I dont think they really care about someone tearing their silk uniform while their whooping someone's @ss, IMHO :D . On the flip side, I;ve seen others who cant perform their art to any CMA standard, but can open a can of whoop @ss on someone who looked to be a competant fighter and again, the tearing of cloths isn't a factor..

Now, to comment on the statement - "For those who think the CMA are suppost to look pretty". Well if speed, power, precision, flexibilty, stability, control, execution, release, etc is whats referred to as pretty, then there is misunderstanding to what the actual standards and principles are for the CMA..

"Which is more useful - Effective or Pretty (art)". Who said pretty cant be effective. Remember, one should not judge an art on the outward appearance of an exibitionist; kungfu, wushu, karate, tae kwon do, etc... And, Ive seen it from all arts, but I also seen guys from many arts that would tear someone a new one in the ring, etc, regardless if the appear pretty or not.. Anywho, I really hate using the word pretty, cause it just doesnt denote the efforts of the Martial artist, performer or fighter. Both take a great deal of perfection, time, & commitment...

Anyway, just wanted to say, its not right to compare apples to oranges, given we dont know a person true intent in the MA's; performer, fighter, or "MARTIAL ARTIST".

IMHO.
CS

[tattooedmonk]

I just wanted to comment on your statement about pretty forms but cannot fight. - There are people in the martial arts who do not wish to learn the fighting aspects or I should say, study comprehensively the fighting applications of their art. They merely use the arts as a means to stay fit and healthy, while maintaining their athletic abilities for personal or performance interests.... Then you have those who dive deep into the arts and there fighting application. These individuals not only perfect their art (look pretty), but can fight very good as well... I dont think they really care about someone tearing their silk uniform while their whooping someone's @ss, IMHO :D . On the flip side, I;ve seen others who cant perform their art to any CMA standard, but can open a can of whoop @ss on someone who looked to be a competant fighter and again, the tearing of cloths isn't a factor..

Now, to comment on the statement - "For those who think the CMA are suppost to look pretty". Well if speed, power, precision, flexibilty, stability, control, execution, release, etc is whats referred to as pretty, then there is misunderstanding to what the actual standards and principles are for the CMA..

"Which is more useful - Effective or Pretty (art)". Who said pretty cant be effective. Remember, one should not judge an art on the outward appearance of an exibitionist; kungfu, wushu, karate, tae kwon do, etc... And, Ive seen it from all arts, but I also seen guys from many arts that would tear someone a new one in the ring, etc, regardless if the appear pretty or not.. Anywho, I really hate using the word pretty, cause it just doesnt denote the efforts of the Martial artist, performer or fighter. Both take a great deal of perfection, time, & commitment...

Anyway, just wanted to say, its not right to compare apples to oranges, given we dont know a person true intent in the MA's; performer, fighter, or "MARTIAL ARTIST".

IMHO.
CSI never said that if it was pretty that it could not be effective in fighting....but most of the people that are more concerned about whether it looks pretty or not are performance artist and not martial artists...basically dancers. Nor did I say that if someone made it look pretty they could not use it effectively in a fight( I do both) if you do it for performance or for recreation or a hobbie you are not a martialartist martial artists do it for all the reasons not just the ones they choose.

as for the bit about the uniform how much practical application are you learning if you are wearing these way out costumes during practice...or teeshirts or whatever?? none.

You have not answered the question about what is the definition of what CMA is or is not beyond all the superficial BS.

[ninthdrunk]

TTM, you keep bringing up the same things, man...


"Going by the definition of what tradition is,( latin word traditio meaning "to hand over" or "pass down"),it is obvious SD has traditions which come from many sources they just are not the ones most commonly followed ."

The problem with this line of reasoning is that everything would have to be seen as a traditional art no matter how much it has changed, so long as it had a tradition of passing along information. With that in mind, it seems like even modern sport wushu could be a traditional art, because it clearly has traditions, they're just "not the ones most commonly followed." I guess for lack of a better way of saying it, having "traditions" does not make an art traditional.

I think people on here feel as though in order to be considered a traditional/CMA/shaolin art, it should contain certain recognizable aspects that other traditional/CMA/shaolin arts have. It's like trying to convince someone that a hamster is a dog and saying, "well, dogs have four legs and fur, and this animal clearly has four legs and fur, so it must be a dog." People aren't going to buy that, because they are used to seeing certain defining characteristics in dogs (or traditional/CMA/Shaolin arts) that they don't see in the hamster (or shaolin do).***

Which brings us to:

" The forms are Chinese in origin ...this seems obvious...how they are performed in demonstrations does not make them any less effective as a martial art or anyless CMA."

Clearly it's not so obvious, otherwise the people on here who have been around awhile and who have been exposed to so many CMA would not be confused and raising such a stink about it. Just like you are always demanding evidence from people about why they feel it's NOT a Chinese art, why don't you enlighten them as to why it's so obvious.


And now:

"At least we are not wearing monk robes and shaving are heads ( pretending to me monks) or wearing some queer colored trimmed silk which will get torn and ripped from your body the first time someone gets ahold of it!!!"

Why in the world are you attacking what people wear? It seems like in the same breath you will claim it doesn't matter about outward trappings, and then turn right around and say something like this. Oh, and I didn't know that queers came in a certain color...:rolleyes:


You try to talk all this mess about Shaolin being a philosophy. I sure hope you don't feel as though you're walking that path. Perhaps it's just something in the facelessness of the internet, but you are a very demanding, condescending and overall rude individual. Your ability to lump all questioners and doubters of Shaolin-Do into one group is quite insulting to those on here asking legitimate questions. Grandmaster Sin wants us all to be ambassadors of our art, not attack dogs, trained to snarl and snip at everyone with a difference of opinion. Surely, someone as learned and educated as yourself should be able to have more civil and meaningful conversations.


If no one is answering your questions in the way you want, why don't you tell us what you think, in perfect, unambiguous detail, what CMA is all about, and why Shaolin Do qualifies. Then, others can state their objections and counters...if you haven't been ignored by everyone on here other than myself (...'cause I think you mean well....just a little of the mark).



***I in no way mean to compare Shaolin Do to a hamster in terms of effectiveness in fighting.:o

[MasterKiller]

as for the bit about the uniform how much practical application are you learning if you are wearing these way out costumes during practice...or teeshirts or whatever?? none.

uh...practical application would be to learn to fight in a T-shirt, unless you walk around in your Gi all the time. Guys who do Gi-only training usually get beat up once the Gis come off. Hope you never get into a fight on the beach. :rolleyes:

[Citong Shifu]

I never said that if it was pretty that it could not be effective in fighting....but most of the people that are more concerned about whether it looks pretty or not are performance artist and not martial artists...basically dancers. Nor did I say that if someone made it look pretty they could not use it effectively in a fight( I do both) if you do it for performance or for recreation or a hobbie you are not a martialartist martial artists do it for all the reasons not just the ones they choose.

as for the bit about the uniform how much practical application are you learning if you are wearing these way out costumes during practice...or teeshirts or whatever?? none.

You have not answered the question about what is the definition of what CMA is or is not beyond all the superficial BS.


TTM, I will not argue with you pertaining to my recent post "Pretty or Effective". Your words and statements on this issue says it all... You in fact did insinuate that pretty is not effective and then went to say "which is more useful - pretty or effective"... Anyway, thats not the point. The point is, art (pretty) = efficeincy, efficeincy = effectiveness (as to the martial artist not performer). I was just commenting on outward comparrisons between martial artist and performers, who really knows what the intent of the person being compared????? Of course, unless you know the individual in question...

As far as, the cloths issue... Who really cares about cloths... Not a martial artist! Applications concerning cloths, who cares. If you cant execute your skills on someone wearing a jacket, t-shirt, uniform, tank top, bare skin, etc, than somethings wrong with that aspect of training... Aplications huh, what would you do against someone with no shirt on or a flimsy top, lol. At the most nothing or you might tear the top off :rolleyes: . People who wear jackets, sweat shirts, hoodies, etc, lol, that type of clothing is easy to grab and assist with throws and chokes.... BUT, if you have to train with a certain type of clothing to make your techniques work, well then, good luck... The clothing issue has no real relavence, other than common knowledge...

The question on "What defines CMA or TCMA, I already gave my opinion on this subject on an earlier post...

CS...

[Green Cloud]

GC - "I'm astounded by how much evidence that is unearthed to support the claims about one of the oldest fighting styles to date...In relation to SD the only evidence they have to support their claims is Mythology."

I was under the impression that the original "Pankration" was lost and it's been reconstructed by modern groups.

A martial art...the original form no longer REALLY taught...just various groups and their interpretations. Hey! You're right, it does have something to do with shaolin/shaolin-do. :D

http://historical-pankration.com/

What are you a car sales man??:rolleyes: Read what I wrote since you took the time to type it out.

"I am astounded by how much evidence that is unearthed to support the claims" in Pancration. Even though Pancration is several thousands of years old the historical evidence is in tact. Just go on the site and look for your self :cool:

In regard to SD you guys have no evidece to support any of the historical claims SD people make it's closer to Mythology.

As far as Pankration being reconstructed it was based on detailed manuals and art work that very clearly show Pancration fighting skills. Not to mention that Olympic style wrestling is Pancration with rules if you don't believe me just book a ticket to Athens and vist Acropolis and you can see it for your self.

Ok boys and girls lets look up what EVIDENCE means,,, That wich serves to prove or disprove something; support proof.

[tattooedmonk]

uh...practical application would be to learn to fight in a T-shirt, unless you walk around in your Gi all the time. Guys who do Gi-only training usually get beat up once the Gis come off. Hope you never get into a fight on the beach. :rolleyes:..... a gi is useful for continued practice of practical application without having to buy new t shirts or whatever else on a daily basis ..... it is strong, durable ,and can withstand continued punishment other types can not....

of course this only applys to when you have cloths on..do not be stupid...you knew what I meant. But of course you think inside the box and have very narrow views on everything.....

[tattooedmonk]

TTM, I will not argue with you pertaining to my recent post "Pretty or Effective". Your words and statements on this issue says it all... You in fact did insinuate that pretty is not effective and then went to say "which is more useful - pretty or effective"... Anyway, thats not the point. The point is, art (pretty) = efficeincy, efficeincy = effectiveness (as to the martial artist not performer). I was just commenting on outward comparrisons between martial artist and performers, who really knows what the intent of the person being compared????? Of course, unless you know the individual in question...

As far as, the cloths issue... Who really cares about cloths... Not a martial artist! Applications concerning cloths, who cares. If you cant execute your skills on someone wearing a jacket, t-shirt, uniform, tank top, bare skin, etc, than somethings wrong with that aspect of training... Aplications huh, what would you do against someone with no shirt on or a flimsy top, lol. At the most nothing or you might tear the top off :rolleyes: . People who wear jackets, sweat shirts, hoodies, etc, lol, that type of clothing is easy to grab and assist with throws and chokes.... BUT, if you have to train with a certain type of clothing to make your techniques work, well then, good luck... The clothing issue has no real relavence, other than common knowledge...

The question on "What defines CMA or TCMA, I already gave my opinion on this subject on an earlier post...

CS...no you just assumed...

just because it is pretty does not mean that it is effective as a martialart..get a clue...like I said these people are dancers not martialartist...I have been trained to see the intent as to whether it is for show or for fighting..most of what I see is for show no matter how much they say it is a martial art..

as far as the uniform just read my proceeding post ..get a clue... of course the uniform does not matter in the grand picture ..but it sure seems to matter to alot of folk here that use it to define what is and what is not kung fu CMA or TCMA....this was my point... I do not need a specific piece of clothing to perform or apply my techniques...or to legitimize my art

[tattooedmonk]

http://historical-pankration.com/

What are you a car sales man??:rolleyes: Read what I wrote since you took the time to type it out.

"I am astounded by how much evidence that is unearthed to support the claims" in Pancration. Even though Pancration is several thousands of years old the historical evidence is in tact. Just go on the site and look for your self :cool:

In regard to SD you guys have no evidece to support any of the historical claims SD people make it's closer to Mythology.

As far as Pankration being reconstructed it was based on detailed manuals and art work that very clearly show Pancration fighting skills. Not to mention that Olympic style wrestling is Pancration with rules if you don't believe me just book a ticket to Athens and vist Acropolis and you can see it for your self.

Ok boys and girls lets look up what EVIDENCE means,,, That wich serves to prove or disprove something; support proof. SD has as much evidence as any other kung fu or martialarts lineage..... because until recently ( 100 to 150 years ago ) none of these arts wrote anything down except some of the material it's self ..it was all passed down by oral tradtions...until recently the art of pankration had been a lost art and was only found through different acient texts and very few people were even doing anything close to it...most likely only greeco roman wrestling

[Citong Shifu]

no you just assumed...

just because it is pretty does not mean that it is effective as a martialart..get a clue...like I said these people are dancers not martialartist...I have been trained to see the intent as to whether it is for show or for fighting..most of what I see is for show no matter how much they say it is a martial art..

as far as the uniform just read my proceeding post ..get a clue... of course the uniform does not matter in the grand picture ..but it sure seems to matter to alot of folk here that use it to define what is and what is not kung fu CMA or TCMA....this was my point... I do not need a specific piece of clothing to perform or apply my techniques...or to legitimize my art


TTM, first of all, its not my place to figure out what your trying to say... That your job... You know as well as I do, especailly on this thread, that you must write what you mean and leave no room for loose translations :D . There has been too many misunderstandings on this he said/she said thing. Thats why I answer or reply to what has been stated, not what I think the person is trying to say... This is the way of this thread...

#2 - I didnt say anything about "just being pretty" as to being effective... What are you missing here? Ok, could you explain to me what the appearance of techniques should be in order to judge there efectiveness? or if there real or not. Uniforms, I dont think I need to cover that one again. We dont place a relevance on wear and tear of our uniforms, beside, one of shaolin kungfu's basic training/fighting principles is to always train at the disadvantage point and when not at a disavantage point, exploit it, but you should already know this...

TTM, I'm not against you or SD. Regardless of how others define the CMA or TCMA. Simply, you train your art and I train my art, which happens to be Fujian Shaolin Temple Kungfu/Boxing.... Anywho, your way too defensive on this subject..

CS.

[The Xia]

Based on the artifacts, it appears to combine Olympic Style Wrestling with Boxing and some kicks. This particular picture is interesting.
http://historical-pankration.com/archive_item.html?archiveid=1125
It is of Etruscan boxers. They appear to be using an old school "put em up" posture.

[Green Cloud]

SD has as much evidence as any other kung fu or martialarts lineage..... because until recently ( 100 to 150 years ago ) none of these arts wrote anything down except some of the material it's self ..it was all passed down by oral tradtions...until recently the art of pankration had been a lost art and was only found through different acient texts and very few people were even doing anything close to it...most likely only greeco roman wrestling

"SD has much evidence" So then SHOW ME...

"Until recently ( 100 to 150 years ago) " wich is it 100 or 150 I can understand being a few years off but 50 years that's what I'm talking about your time line is a joke:cool:

"None of these arts wrote anything down" Then how can you even expect to debate that any SD has got any proof that it wasn't made up by the GM of the system:confused:

The so called ancient texts that you speak of have been around for ever and lets not forget the fact that the moves are depicted on just about ever greek vase you see.

Before you continue to spew nonsense I have to warn you that I am 100% GREEK and I now the history of my ancestory a lot better than you:cool:

[Green Cloud]

Based on the artifacts, it appears to combine Olympic Style Wrestling with Boxing and some kicks. This particular picture is interesting.
http://historical-pankration.com/archive_item.html?archiveid=1125
It is of Etruscan boxers. They appear to be using an old school "put em up" posture.

Xia I'd have to say Touche, that's exactly what I was talking about EVIDENCE

[The Xia]

Archeology is a great thing. Modern equipment is a key to the past. Some things have been confirmed and some things debunked. New discoveries are made. Things are clarified. The ancient Greeks did have historians. Thucydides is an example of that. For many years, Homer's Iliad was thought to be a complete myth. This is until Heinrich Schliemann actually uncovered the ruins of Troy. He even discovered the Mask of Agamemnon. Fascinating huh?

[Green Cloud]

Wow that is very interesting

[Green Cloud]

I think we should turn this thread into a Pancration thread as much as I like Mythology I love History:)

[The Xia]

Some information on Heinrich Schliemann

Schliemann, Heinrich (hīn'rikh shlē'män) [key], 1822–90, German archaeologist, discoverer of the ruins of Troy. He accumulated a fortune in the indigo trade and as a military contractor and retired from business in 1863 to dedicate himself to finding Troy and other Homeric sites. After several years of study and travel, in 1871 he undertook at his own expense excavations at Hissarlik that resulted in the discovery of four superimposed towns. Schliemann's research at Hissarlik represented the archaeological discovery of a Homeric civilization, previously considered by many experts to be legendary. Schliemann related every object he found to the verses of Homer, which he knew by heart. He made other notable excavations at Mycenae (1876–78), Ithaca (1878), Orchomenus, Boeotia (1881–82), and Tiryns (1884–85) and was assisted by Wilhelm Dörpfeld from 1882. His work in Greece demonstrated the existence of the previously unknown civilization of the Greek Bronze Age. Schliemann made two of the most spectacular discoveries in the history of archaeology, finding the “Treasure of Priam” at Hissarlik in 1873 (a trove that included two gold diadems, thousands of pieces of gold jewelry, bronze weapons, and silver and copper vessels) and an even larger treasure of gold, silver, and copper ornaments, masks, and swords at the Shaft Graves at Mycenae in 1876–77. The Treasure of Priam has always been controversial, as Schliemann's accounts of this discovery were inconsistent, and he smuggled the items out of Turkey. Schliemann's work, widely reported by the international press, captured the public imagination and dramatically revealed the great potential of archaeological research. Schliemann wrote several books describing his discoveries and an autobiography (published posthumously in 1892) and left a vast collection of personal papers and records, He acquired American citizenship because he was living in California when it became a state (1850).

See biographies by E. Ludwig (1931), R. Payne (1958), A. C. Brackman (1974), and D. A. Traill (1995); C. Schuchhardt, Schliemann's Excavations and Archaeological and Historical Studies (1977); S. H. Allen, Finding the Walls of Troy (1999).
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0843969.html

This information doesn't have to do with Pankration but it is about one of the most important archeologists of all time so I say what the hell. :p

[Green Cloud]

That was vey insightful thanks Xia.

[MasterKiller]

..... a gi is useful for continued practice of practical application without having to buy new t shirts or whatever else on a daily basis ..... it is strong, durable ,and can withstand continued punishment other types can not.... It can also make people sloppy when training throws and grappling because they get used to having something to hold on to...BJJ guys train in GIs, but if you fight one that never trained without it, they are lost. Same for a lot of Judoka.

I wear underarmor and shorts when I train...never torn one yet.


But of course you think inside the box and have very narrow views on everything.....
Pot...kettle...

BTW, you should really read Brian Kennedy's book on Chinese martial arts manuals. A lot of the hooley balloey you spout as Shaolin history is debunked in that book. Especially your notion of Shaolin being a "university" of martial arts.

[Radhnoti]

GC, I was just commenting on the lack of "real" shaolin. Shaolin was only ONE thing back when there was one place where it was gathered, in my opinion. Reconstruction in pankration from vases and history books wouldn't qualify an art as "real" in the TCMA world...well...at least not on this board. If Sin The' just made up shaolin-do from all the historic evidence and pictures he would catch as much criticism as he does now. I'm not saying pankration didn't exist, I'm saying no one has any proof that modern practicioners are doing the exact same thing in the same way that original pankration students did. That's the price you pay with incomplete historic accounts.

I have a question. What, exactly, is it that is being disagreed with on this thread now? Most the time SD opponents say things now, and I agree with them.
"SD doesn't look like [insert style name]." - I agree.
"SD isn't connected with any current Chinese shaolin monks." - OK, I agree.
"SD has good and bad examples of students and teachers." - No doubt.
Has the disagreement come down to just a distaste for marketing practices now? I'm not trying to be confrontational here...I just don't see where there's much disagreement anymore.
Thanks in advance to anyone who chooses to answer...

[Judge Pen]

I spoke with GM The' yesterday. You can say whateer you want about the guy, but he moves very well for 64 years old. He's still in great shape.

[MasterKiller]

Did he mention when the movie is supposed to be coming out?

[richard sloan]

...I have to warn you that I am 100% GREEK and I now the history of my ancestory a lot better than you:cool:

well then you, like me, are avidly awaiting THIS:

http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/

[Golden Tiger]

You can say whateer you want about the guy, but he moves very well for 64 years old.

I noticed that also on Saturday during the Monkey form. He was jumping around a lot easier than I was for sure. But at least I can still move quicker than KC and Baqualin :D

[Baqualin]

I noticed that also on Saturday during the Monkey form. He was jumping around a lot easier than I was for sure. But at least I can still move quicker than KC and Baqualin :D

All right GT your going to slip up one of these days....I know 99% of the people in that room Sat. and the 1% I didn't were from out of town:cool: I hope you can move quicker than me since I have you by almost ten years. BQ

[godzillakungfu]

Did he mention when the movie is supposed to be coming out?

I do have to admit, it took much longer for this quip to resurface than I thought.

[Judge Pen]

Did he mention when the movie is supposed to be coming out?

I know not to ask.

GT, I haven't seen BQ move, but if you can move better than KC, then that's saying something.

Richard Sloan: I can't wait for '300'. I love the story of Thermopylae!

[kwaichang]

Hey GT I am a taller and bigger than most kind of Guy but if you judged my speed by my performance Saturday at the seminar then you are sorely mistaken. I am not one to brag so I will Quote others when I say that "they" think I am pretty quick. There fore I will be in Lexington next month I will let you know when and we can have a friendly match what say GT want to spar an "old one eyed fat man " KC

[Judge Pen]

One of these days KC you and I need to get our sparring match over with. I'm not that good, but I like to spar people better than me--helps me get better.