Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Radhnoti]

OT - I can't wait for 300 either...

[kwaichang]

Hey JP I only spar for pink slips now what kind of car you got ? KC

[BentMonk]

One of these days KC you and I need to get our sparring match over with. I'm not that good, but I like to spar people better than me--helps me get better.

Ahem...KC ain't the only one you've duckin'. :D

[Golden Tiger]

Hey GT I am a taller and bigger than most kind of Guy but if you judged my speed by my performance Saturday at the seminar then you are sorely mistaken. I am not one to brag so I will Quote others when I say that "they" think I am pretty quick. There fore I will be in Lexington next month I will let you know when and we can have a friendly match what say GT want to spar an "old one eyed fat man " KC




Hey JP I only spar for pink slips now what kind of car you got ? KC

I think I will have to pass on that. I am old and slow and drive a junker. You would have nothing to gain by beating up on me.;)

[Green Cloud]

well then you, like me, are avidly awaiting THIS:

http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/

Ho yea that looks like it's gona be a hell of a good movie.

[Green Cloud]

GC, I was just commenting on the lack of "real" shaolin. Shaolin was only ONE thing back when there was one place where it was gathered, in my opinion. Reconstruction in pankration from vases and history books wouldn't qualify an art as "real" in the TCMA world...well...at least not on this board. If Sin The' just made up shaolin-do from all the historic evidence and pictures he would catch as much criticism as he does now. I'm not saying pankration didn't exist, I'm saying no one has any proof that modern practicioners are doing the exact same thing in the same way that original pankration students did. That's the price you pay with incomplete historic accounts.

I have a question. What, exactly, is it that is being disagreed with on this thread now? Most the time SD opponents say things now, and I agree with them.
"SD doesn't look like [insert style name]." - I agree.
"SD isn't connected with any current Chinese shaolin monks." - OK, I agree.
"SD has good and bad examples of students and teachers." - No doubt.
Has the disagreement come down to just a distaste for marketing practices now? I'm not trying to be confrontational here...I just don't see where there's much disagreement anymore.
Thanks in advance to anyone who chooses to answer...


Ok let me try to simplify the debate, Everything that you have stated I agree with. The problem is the SD guys that I have spoken to made ridiculous claims that are the opposite of what you just stated.

I also have a problem with SD's marketing, its misleading. It seems to me that SD people on this thread will say anything t make one believe that this is a real Shaolin system.

Don't get me wrong I have no problem with what SD is or what you guys do, I just have a problem with people making up sh!t as they go along.

If I was an SD person I'd say that SD is an eclectic style that has borrowed techniques from many different fighting styles. Its origins or who ever made it up or should I say created it have a strong Indonesian influence and the moves resemble Silat and karate.

Instead on this thread you get guys making BS claims about being one of the most deadliest styles coming out of not one but all the Shaolin temples:rolleyes:

Claims about doing not one style of shaolin but all of them and such. Statements like this are untrue over exagerated and missleading not to mention proposterous.

[Judge Pen]

Hey JP I only spar for pink slips now what kind of car you got ? KC

I drive a a real crappy red truck. Tell you what, I'll trade you, but you have to take over payments.

[Judge Pen]

Ahem...KC ain't the only one you've duckin'. :D

KC lives 100 yards from me. What's your excuse? :D

[tattooedmonk]

Ok let me try to simplify the debate, Everything that you have stated I agree with. The problem is the SD guys that I have spoken to made ridiculous claims that are the opposite of what you just stated.

I also have a problem with SD's marketing, its misleading. It seems to me that SD people on this thread will say anything t make one believe that this is a real Shaolin system.

Don't get me wrong I have no problem with what SD is or what you guys do, I just have a problem with people making up sh!t as they go along.

If I was an SD person I'd say that SD is an eclectic style that has borrowed techniques from many different fighting styles. Its origins or who ever made it up or should I say created it have a strong Indonesian influence and the moves resemble Silat and karate.

Instead on this thread you get guys making BS claims about being one of the most deadliest styles coming out of not one but all the Shaolin temples:rolleyes:

Claims about doing not one style of shaolin but all of them and such. Statements like this are untrue over exagerated and missleading not to mention proposterous.How do you know it is BullSh!T?? Prove it!!!No matter how crazy the history or lineage may seem the art speaks for it'self. There is no way that one or two people could have collected this material over such a short period of time and put it all together in the format that it is in...plus what would anyone have to gain by lying about it?? It stands to reason that it would have more to lose than gain by lying..it appears that most of you are jealous or are in awe of the fact that one school can claim what it does becuase you never heard of it up until recently you think that it must be BullSh!t..which is stupid and ignorant...all of you and your masters/ sifus knock it without any real research into the subject.You choose to ignore things to save face and pick on the things that have non intrinsic value in the debate or in the art. ...get a clue people do some research outside of your little troll holes and see that there is far more to Shaolin than meets the eye.

[Blacktiger]

The only thing that Shaolin Do can prove is that its called Shaolin Do :eek:

[ingchao]

Once again Tattooed Monk, I admire your dedication to your art.
But at this point you are peeing into the wind.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
We have not been shown good examples of your art in action( like you said you would show us) and you really lost any hope of gaining any credibility for SD when you said each stlye of Mantis was a substyle within SD. Maybe you have 7 mantis FORMS, But there are more than 7 COMPLETE systems of Preying Mantis (by complete I mean they all have many forms and weapons sets that are unique to each style of Mantis, meaning each system would take a LIFETIME to master).


My apologies if you already addressed the Mantis issue and I missed it.

[Green Cloud]

How do you know it is BullSh!T?? Prove it!!!No matter how crazy the history or lineage may seem the art speaks for it'self. There is no way that one or two people could have collected this material over such a short period of time and put it all together in the format that it is in...plus what would anyone have to gain by lying about it?? It stands to reason that it would have more to lose than gain by lying..it appears that most of you are jealous or are in awe of the fact that one school can claim what it does becuase you never heard of it up until recently you think that it must be BullSh!t..which is stupid and ignorant...all of you and your masters/ sifus knock it without any real research into the subject.You choose to ignore things to save face and pick on the things that have non intrinsic value in the debate or in the art. ...get a clue people do some research outside of your little troll holes and see that there is far more to Shaolin than meets the eye.

When I said people that make Sh!t up as they go along I meant you. What would anyone gain from lying??? Sometimes a lying is perpetuated for so long that there is no turning back. And as far as doing research, ,, what research their is no historical evidence to support any of SD's claims. That's the point I was trying to make with Pancration you big dummy.

[kungfujunky]

there is evidence as i have said before in this thread. but it is at gmt's discretion wether or not those items are shown to the public.

[BentMonk]

KC lives 100 yards from me. What's your excuse? :D

Oh sure...blame on distance. lol I was hoping to goad you into making a road trip. :D I hope all is great with the family.

[kwaichang]

Hey BT , Me and JP are both going to be dads in the next 2 months maybe after that we can do a road trip and invite GT and Baqualin also sort of a Gathering if you will. Sound good guys ?? KC

[Judge Pen]

Sure, I'm up for it. Me, KC, BM, GT, BQ and anyone else?

[Baqualin]

I'm in......good luck on getting GT off the couch.:D

[ninthdrunk]

I know for a fact I'd be a little out of league on this one, but I'd love to get in on some of that action. I'm a bit far away, but hopefully I could coordinate that trip with something else and make it happen. Just let me know when details start coming out.

[Radhnoti]

GC - "I also have a problem with SD's marketing, its misleading. It seems to me that SD people on this thread will say anything t make one believe that this is a real Shaolin system."
Regarding marketing, I agree but I also understand it's often necessary to attract students.
Regarding "real", again, the only link shaolin-do claims (beyond the name, I suppose) is historic.

GC - "If I was an SD person I'd say that SD is an eclectic style that has borrowed techniques from many different fighting styles. Its origins or who ever made it up or should I say created it have a strong Indonesian influence and the moves resemble Silat and karate."
I'd agree to most of that... Are you willing to grant that there's also a Chinese influence? Sin The' is Chinese, his family name in China was Chen. Kwando, broadsword, staff and spear are taught before second black. Several example of Chinese schools doing shaolin-do's exact forms have been referrenced in this thread, and GM Sin has been teaching them since what 1967?68? If you can acknowledge that some of SD is Chinese influenced, and then you look at how long he's been at it...to me the chances of "making it up" or finding so many books about Chinese martial arts in Indonesia just seems pretty slim. Another option might be GM Ie collecting manuscripts of some sort...but now you're moving further back to a time in China when books probably weren't so commonplace. To me, the most LOGICAL thing to assume is that GM Sin received a transmission of information just as he and his brother say, via Chinese teachers in Indonesia.
Shaolin-do is not the only style with historic inaccuracies and exaggerations. It's REALLY common in kuntao circles where moving from China jumbled things up even more...
Thanks for humoring me and answering my post GC, I hope I was able to convey my opinion in my ramblings above. :o

[Baqualin]

I know for a fact I'd be a little out of league on this one, but I'd love to get in on some of that action. I'm a bit far away, but hopefully I could coordinate that trip with something else and make it happen. Just let me know when details start coming out.

KFJ is far away too and I'm sure he would love to get in on this also....I'm looking after the first of the year...I know KC & JP will be tied up until then (hey guys you know what causes that stuff:D )

[Golden Tiger]

I'm in......good luck on getting GT off the couch.:D

The couch is a lot safer place to be. I don't want to have to take the wrath of you youngins....:D

[tattooedmonk]

Once again Tattooed Monk, I admire your dedication to your art.
But at this point you are peeing into the wind.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
We have not been shown good examples of your art in action( like you said you would show us) and you really lost any hope of gaining any credibility for SD when you said each stlye of Mantis was a substyle within SD. Maybe you have 7 mantis FORMS, But there are more than 7 COMPLETE systems of Preying Mantis (by complete I mean they all have many forms and weapons sets that are unique to each style of Mantis, meaning each system would take a LIFETIME to master).


My apologies if you already addressed the Mantis issue and I missed it. I know that there are at least the 4 original complete styles of mantis within the art.....all the others are off shoots...I am not aware of there being any southern mantis because it is a more recent developement.I doubt it is in the curriculum. I am aware of the fact that that it would take life times to master all of them . one of the greatest misconceptions is that Master Sin is a master of all of these styles . He is the grandmaster of the system and holder of the collective teachings .He has learned and teaches them but his area of mastery is in other styles . This was the job of the grandmaster within the temple network.It is his job in Shaolin Do. The grandmasters did not master all the styles nor did they need to because there were masters for each specific styles within the temple network.

[MasterKiller]

This was the job of the grandmaster within the temple network.It is his job in Shaolin Do. The grandmasters did not master all the styles nor did they need to because there were masters for each specific styles within the temple network.

What is your source for this information?

[Judge Pen]

The couch is a lot safer place to be. I don't want to have to take the wrath of you youngins....:D

You could be in charge of cooridnating the beverage intake afterwards.

[tattooedmonk]

When I said people that make Sh!t up as they go along I meant you. What would anyone gain from lying??? Sometimes a lying is perpetuated for so long that there is no turning back. And as far as doing research, ,, what research their is no historical evidence to support any of SD's claims. That's the point I was trying to make with Pancration you big dummy.So now I am making Sh!t up HAHAHAH whatever...

there is just as much information to support SD claims as any other style out there . maybe not the intimate details but definately the history of Shaolin and the developement of the temple network the styles ,teachings and the forms...get a clue...most of the history and lineage in all these other styles was not revealed unless you were a private student / disciple and was not something that was bragged about until recently...all this stuff was passed down by oral tradition.

In this day of the information age the internet has made it possible to connect all these points within the web and pass on information at a higher rate of speed and at a higher rate of error. the internet perpetuates many forms of misinformation and is constantly used by people to lend credability to what they do. this includes everyone.

just because it is believed by many does not make it true..you know that this applies to your arts as well as ours... get a clue...you will find that your styles have less credibility than ours

like I said it would take more than 2 people( Ie chang ming and sin kwang the) to make this stuff up and would take many lifetimes to do that amount of research and training. you see this is what many people within Shaolin Do understand is that through reasoning and logic we understand that it would be impossible for them to do so in such a short period of time and that there is more evidence within Shaolin Do to support the claims than there are not.Plus most of the people do not care about the superficial BULLSH!T that you all seem to worry about

How could someone have this amount of extensive knowledge in such a short period of time and make all the other **** up as they go along??? Basically you would be saying that for over 150 years su kong, ie chang ming ,and sin the have made all of this stuff up and developed a marketing sceme just to make money...I believe there are easier ways to do this and why would anyone waste their time doing such a thing???it does not make sense

..it is obvious that you are jealous and in awe of the collective teachings of Shaolin Do and cannot get past your preconceived ideas of what is and what is not to really explore the history of shaolin ,kung Fu, and SD. when you do ( if you do ) you will find that there is a whole world of knowledge that you and these other people are missing out on

[tattooedmonk]

KFJ is far away too and I'm sure he would love to get in on this also....I'm looking after the first of the year...I know KC & JP will be tied up until then (hey guys you know what causes that stuff:D )is there anyway I can get in on this too?? I could use a good schooling by you old folks!!:D

[kungfujunky]

you know im in!

though im worried...is there an age requirement? cause i might be to young for you old uns!

lmao!

just keep me posted fellas!

[Judge Pen]

you know im in!

though im worried...is there an age requirement? cause i might be to young for you old uns!

lmao!

just keep me posted fellas!


As we say in Tennessee, "Them thar's fightn' words!"

[ninthdrunk]

This sounds like a great idea, y'all. If it's at the beginning of next year, that should work out well for me. I'm driving through Kentucky in mid to late January as it is, and was hoping to stay in town for a lesson or two. Maybe it will work out for sometime that could make it.

I gotta admit, though. I share KFJ's sentiments. I'm just looking forward to taking a pounding and getting some pointers...no comments on age here, though!

Seems that every time I comment on how old someone is, they demonstrate how much treachery one can acquire with experience. Not that any of you fine, upstanding Shaolin Do folks would resort to treachery or mischeviousness in order to prove a point...or heck, just to win for that matter!

[Golden Tiger]

Seems that every time I comment on how old someone is, they demonstrate how much treachery one can acquire with experience.


As a friend of mine at the gym always says: " I didn't make it to getting old by being stupid".:cool:

[Baqualin]

The couch is a lot safer place to be. I don't want to have to take the wrath of you youngins....:D

You keep forgetting I'm your elder:)

[Baqualin]

is there anyway I can get in on this too?? I could use a good schooling by you old folks!!:D

Of course:D

[brucereiter]

Sure, I'm up for it. Me, KC, BM, GT, BQ and anyone else?

hi ya'all,

schedule permitting i would love to meet with everyone ...
so please give me a shout if this happens.

best,

b

[kungfujunky]

how about the first or 3rd week in february?

like a thursday - tuesday ?

[Baqualin]

how about the first or 3rd week in february?

like a thursday - tuesday ?

It's all good to me, but we had better wait till the Babies come....JP & KC will have to adjust...KC knows....JP has no clue, it's his first:D

[ninthdrunk]

Yeah, ultimately we have to leave it up to them...or more appropriately, their lady friends.

As for February, that's pretty tough, 'cause I try to make it back to Texas for Master Schaefer's tournament. Heck, I guess there's always March. We could have a little side action before or after the seminar.

[Baqualin]

Green Cloud
Are you telling me there's no mythology in your system of Kung Fu anywhere:confused:

And as far as material goes your a Master of the Green Cloud school plus you hold 10 Black Beltsin other styles.
Your school teaches:
Northern Siu-Lum Pai
Bak-Mei
Dai Sing Pek Gwa (Great Sage Monkey System)
Sit Gaut
San Shou
Southern Eagle Claw
Northern Eagle Claw
Iron Palm
Chi Gung - Hei Gung
Chin Na
Pankration
Nanchuan
Jiu Jia Quan (Drunken Boxing)
Nok Fei Pai
Mok Ga
Tai Chi
Krav Maga
Kick Boxing
That's a lot of material!!
I do respect your skill (seen your vid's nice!) and your lineage...it's easy to follow it came through China(no questions)....OURS isn't it came through Indonesia, but that makes it no less unreal....your right about some SD people making claims that make no sense, but you do a pretty good job of marketing yourself (that includes this thread) and I'm sure your not putting a cap on the number of schools or students.

Also some of us are working on putting good SD vids on here.....but as I've seen from other threads a lot of the older masters don't want their videos posted on here...not out of fear but respect.:cool:

I guess I just did a little Marketing for you myself didn't I!!!

[Baqualin]

Yeah, ultimately we have to leave it up to them...or more appropriately, their lady friends.

As for February, that's pretty tough, 'cause I try to make it back to Texas for Master Schaefer's tournament. Heck, I guess there's always March. We could have a little side action before or after the seminar.

That would be a great time...GMS will be staying here then and I'm sure he would love to hang out with us.;)

[KungFu Student]

Yeah, ultimately we have to leave it up to them...or more appropriately, their lady friends.

As for February, that's pretty tough, 'cause I try to make it back to Texas for Master Schaefer's tournament. Heck, I guess there's always March. We could have a little side action before or after the seminar.

It would be nice to meet some of the SD people from the board at Master Shaefer's tournament. Really trying to improve my sparring skills so I can have a good showing, plus trimming down a bit more. ;)

[kungfujunky]

That would be a great time...GMS will be staying here then and I'm sure he would love to hang out with us.;)



that would be good for me!

just give me a month or more notice so i can arrange things

[kwaichang]

If we do this thing next year then why dont we do it like a seminar where we each pick a form or subject and instruct on that topic. ??? KC

[BentMonk]

OK, who's close enough to Louisville to give the bent old guy who doesn't drive a ride to this shindig? :D

[ninthdrunk]

Baqualin - man, that would be pretty dang cool.

KC - I think that's a great idea. I'd love to show folks what I've been doing with monkey...unless someone who outranks me wants to take that one!

[kwaichang]

Hey I can hope that rank will not be an issue as long as we all have something we want to contribute. I can learn from a white belt or what ever so If you have something to share do it. I think this is great who else is in ??? KC

[Green Cloud]

Green Cloud
Are you telling me there's no mythology in your system of Kung Fu anywhere:confused:

And as far as material goes your a Master of the Green Cloud school plus you hold 10 Black Beltsin other styles.
Your school teaches:
Northern Siu-Lum Pai
Bak-Mei
Dai Sing Pek Gwa (Great Sage Monkey System)
Sit Gaut
San Shou
Southern Eagle Claw
Northern Eagle Claw
Iron Palm
Chi Gung - Hei Gung
Chin Na
Pankration
Nanchuan
Jiu Jia Quan (Drunken Boxing)
Nok Fei Pai
Mok Ga
Tai Chi
Krav Maga
Kick Boxing
That's a lot of material!!
I do respect your skill (seen your vid's nice!) and your lineage...it's easy to follow it came through China(no questions)....OURS isn't it came through Indonesia, but that makes it no less unreal....your right about some SD people making claims that make no sense, but you do a pretty good job of marketing yourself (that includes this thread) and I'm sure your not putting a cap on the number of schools or students.

Also some of us are working on putting good SD vids on here.....but as I've seen from other threads a lot of the older masters don't want their videos posted on here...not out of fear but respect.:cool:

I guess I just did a little Marketing for you myself didn't I!!!

What can I say I opened my first school when I was 17 years old and I still run several schools at the age of 40.

I don't claim to be master in every style but I have studied everyone of these styles during my long journey in MA. What can i say, some people say I'm an idiot savant.

The one thing that I don't do is say that all these styles are part of one system called Bla Bla Ba.

Besides everyone in the traditional MA comunity knows my well deserved rep and I can back it up.

So far the only person that I hold suspect on this thread is the Tattooed monk his debates are OT.

[tattooedmonk]

What can I say I opened my first school when I was 17 years old and I still run several schools at the age of 40.

I don't claim to be master in every style but I have studied everyone of these styles during my long journey in MA. What can i say, some people say I'm an idiot savant.

The one thing that I don't do is say that all these styles are part of one system called Bla Bla Ba.

Besides everyone in the traditional MA comunity knows my well deserved rep and I can back it up.

So far the only person that I hold suspect on this thread is the Tattooed monk his debates are OT.when did pankration become kung fu?? since this is in your program does it make the other styles or what you teach not kung fu???

I think your list of styles is bullsh!t.

The name is Shaolin Do. There is a reason for this.....

the arts that were developed in the temples are in the curriculum and the ones that were not were absorbed into the to the curriculum just like Shaolin of old.

This was to better the art as it is modified and adapted to for modern usage.

it is not about clothing, forms, styles, ,or any thing else non intrinsic.

Do you even understand that Shaolin was built on a ideaology, methodology, and philosophy, etc.....

This is why it is called Shaolin Do..... The Way of Shaolin....

you must be dumber than a box of rocks not to figure this out....

all of your thinking is done inside this box..you need to get out more

do not break your arm patting yourself on the back!!!

[The Xia]

You should do some reading about Shaolin and you will discover it isn't some obscure, mystical, philosophical concept. Masterkiller mentioned Brian Kennedy's book for good reading on Shaolin. Research is key.

As for Green Cloud, he is a lineage holder of Chan Tai San. If you doubt Green Cloud's legitimacy, look up Chan Tai San.

[tattooedmonk]

You should do some reading about Shaolin and you will discover it isn't some obscure, mystica,l philosophical concept. Masterkiller mentioned Brian Kennedy's book for some good reading on Shaolin. Research is key.

As for Green Cloud, he is a lineage holder of Chan Tai San. If you doubt Green Cloud's legitimacy, look up Chan Tai San.I do not care who he is associated with . this does not mean that he does kung fu or that he is a good martialartist or that he is not lying in one way or another...

I think you should do some reserch on Shaolin and kung fu because you read to much of what supports your beliefs and do not do enough research and exploring of the philosophical / religious systems that were in use at shaolin over 15oo yrs....get a clue

[Green Cloud]

You should do some reading about Shaolin and you will discover it isn't some obscure, mystical, philosophical concept. Masterkiller mentioned Brian Kennedy's book for good reading on Shaolin. Research is key.

As for Green Cloud, he is a lineage holder of Chan Tai San. If you doubt Green Cloud's legitimacy, look up Chan Tai San.

When it comes to the Tattoedmonk boy I get the feeling that I might be arguing with a 12 year old based on his posts.

As for the Pancration thing it's not part of my Curriculim but it does influence how I aproach fighting and that's with an informed understanding of what's out there.

[Green Cloud]

I do not care who he is associated with . this does not mean that he does kung fu or that he is a good martialartist or that he is not lying in one way or another...

I think you should do some reserch on Shaolin and kung fu because you read to much of what supports your beliefs and do not do enough research and exploring of the philosophical / religious systems that were in use at shaolin over 15oo yrs....get a clue

OK now I know your just stupid, as I have said before research what nothing of what you say is written anywhere. Exploring the philosiphical and religious systems, WTF does that mean nothing I've read ever mentions SD exept for the propiganda on the SD web sites that are vague to begin with:p

[The Xia]

I read accurate material when I do research. I don't deny fact. I know about Chan Buddhism and Shaolin Temple. If I were using religion as the basis of Shaolin Do's legitimacy, then it would automatically disqualify being that Shaolin Do is not a Chan institution.

You have made something clear, you are incapable of having a civil discussion with people that feel differently then you do about Shaolin Do. That says a lot about you. You are disrespectful, rude, and ignorant. You have insulted me, and others, simply because of disagreement. Take a hint, people who come onto this thread that disagree with you all wind up forming the same opinion about you.

[Green Cloud]

I second that, I think that the Tattoed monkey boy is a discrace to his own system.

I vote that the SD people excomunicate this fool:mad:

[brucereiter]

hello all,

i vote we forgive him and try to understand his frustration ...

"Obey the rules of society.
Demonstrate excellent martial art spirit.
Respect elders and honor friends.
Be kind and love others.
Show good faith to others and keep their trust.
Support the weak and aid the needy.
Demonstrate good conduct and excellent learning spirit.
Cultivate the body and nourish the spirit.
Be disciplined, be generous, be honest, be loyal and give forgiveness.
Be alert, be wise, be open minded and be patient.

ie chang ming"

those of us who practice shaolin do should try to live up to these ideas.

as hard as it can be to have people dout what you do or seemingly try to discredit what you do we must continue to practice/study our chosen art and become great examples, lead by example. shaolin do students should not engage in name calling and shaolin do students should have their facts straight before they say this or that is or isnt. i think many of the misconceptions regarding shaolin do have been as a result of students stateing things as fact that they do not know for fact. "thus i have heard" might be a good way to present history you are not sure of.

gus has said some things that i do not agree with and at times can be a little insulting but for the most part i think he has asked honest questions and since this is an open forum this is what you do ask questions and debate ... he seems to be an excellent martial artist i look forward to meeting him at some point in my travels to see what he has to offer.

at any rate gus deserves respect for his time and effort as does tattoedmonk so instead of insulting each other please remain respectful. gus i am sure you are senior in cma to many of us here so you might set an example for us to follow.

keep digging for the truth ...

[Invincible Yang]

Has anyone ever heard of these guys? They claim to teach some of the material that is also taught in SD, ie. 10,000 bees attacking, golden snake, etc. It seemed odd that they would have some of these styles also.

[Judge Pen]

Has anyone ever heard of these guys? They claim to teach some of the material that is also taught in SD, ie. 10,000 bees attacking, golden snake, etc. It seemed odd that they would have some of these styles also.

I have not heard that. I wonder if they are associtated with some of the collegues that taught with Master Ie. I've heard a rumor that there are a couple of non SD schools that come from these teachers, but I've only found one vauge link to a white crane school that Monkey Slap 2 helped me locate. Do you have any more information? Does this school have a website, e-mail or phone number. I'll be glad to contact them and ask.

[Judge Pen]

As for the gathering, I don't know what I could contribute to a martial lesson but what I could do is summarize the laws on martial arts, self-defense, weapons etc. of each state where you guys live so you guys can understand the ramnifications of using your material in your neighborhood.

[Baqualin]

What can I say I opened my first school when I was 17 years old and I still run several schools at the age of 40.

I don't claim to be master in every style but I have studied everyone of these styles during my long journey in MA. What can i say, some people say I'm an idiot savant.

The one thing that I don't do is say that all these styles are part of one system called Bla Bla Ba.

Besides everyone in the traditional MA comunity knows my well deserved rep and I can back it up.

So far the only person that I hold suspect on this thread is the Tattooed monk his debates are OT.

Your response says alot about you......I hope you know I wasn't trying to slam you, I see your the real deal...I was just making a point. Yes some in SD make claims they know nothing about....Just like all the material you teach is under the Green Cloud school...all the material we teach is under the SD school, no time has GMS ever claimed our material is one system.....each system is it's own and has a separate lineage. I would also like to say that your lucky to have chosen the life style you have...I would love to do MA all day long everyday. Hopefully we can meet in person someday:)

[Baqualin]

I have not heard that. I wonder if they are associtated with some of the collegues that taught with Master Ie. I've heard a rumor that there are a couple of non SD schools that come from these teachers, but I've only found one vauge link to a white crane school that Monkey Slap 2 helped me locate. Do you have any more information? Does this school have a website, e-mail or phone number. I'll be glad to contact them and ask.

It's a school in Texas...I'm sure Master Joe knows the scoop...maybe even Willow Sword. It looks like their using our "material by temple" list & not really teaching the same forms. Just google Bei Shaolin for their web site.

Hey JP the White Crane school you mentioned is it in Texas...GMS is looking for the son of one of his collegues that has a white crane school...he was told it is somewhere in Texas?

[kungfujunky]

ttm is no longer affiliated with csc or shaolin do....

his comments are grating and close minded to me. they lack in logical understanding of debate.

while your fervor for the art is commendable ttm your approach is atrocious.

as for shaolin do....it is real. it is comprehensive. it is no different than schools like green clouds. we teach a lot of material. we have roots in the temples.


if you doubt us do push hands with a master. spar a master. they are for real.

[Baqualin]

As for the gathering, I don't know what I could contribute to a martial lesson but what I could do is summarize the laws on martial arts, self-defense, weapons etc. of each state where you guys live so you guys can understand the ramnifications of using your material in your neighborhood.

I think this is more of a get to know each other gathering....it's unofficial so rank means nothing as KC said....I think we all have something to offer,besides I kinda would like to know the ramnifications of what would happen if I popped somebody on stomach 9 for messing with my family:D

By the way have you noticed how the elusive Golden Tiger has been real elusive since we started talking about this gathering;)

[Baqualin]

OK, who's close enough to Louisville to give the bent old guy who doesn't drive a ride to this shindig? :D

Don't worry if we get this put together we'll make sure you get there:D

[MasterKiller]

It's a school in Texas...I'm sure Master Joe knows the scoop...maybe even Willow Sword. It looks like their using our "material by temple" list & not really teaching the same forms. Just google Bei Shaolin for their web site.?

Like I said a few pages back, it looks like they just pulled the info about Shaolin off of a website, probably an SD one.

http://www.beishaolin.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=15

[Citong Shifu]

Don't worry if we get this put together we'll make sure you get there:D

Hey. Do you guys allow outsiders. I'm up for sparring, law lectures, etc.... :D . Ain't no shame in my game :D .

CS

[Judge Pen]

It's a school in Texas...I'm sure Master Joe knows the scoop...maybe even Willow Sword. It looks like their using our "material by temple" list & not really teaching the same forms. Just google Bei Shaolin for their web site.

Hey JP the White Crane school you mentioned is it in Texas...GMS is looking for the son of one of his collegues that has a white crane school...he was told it is somewhere in Texas?


Doing research on this right now....

[The Willow Sword]

It's a school in Texas...I'm sure Master Joe knows the scoop...maybe even Willow Sword


Not really. Ive never heard of any sub Sd related school here in Austin or anywhere else in Texas for that matter. When it comes to the Shaolin name here in Texas, SD has cornered the market on that. But the general consensus about Sd in Austin with respect to the other TCMA schools is pretty much the same. No-one really harasses the SD folks in Austin because there is a respect for each others buisness and the need to make money and thats as far as it goes(what is said behind closed doors is a totally different matter).
There was recently a martial arts convention here in Austin and SD was there. All the schools got together and did their thing and aside from all the sharing and coming together it was about making the money and getting the word out on the different schools here in austin(nothing wrong with that at all, this is America).


Peace,TWS

[Judge Pen]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38482

Here's the thread that MS2 asked about this group. The thread has a link to the school that is in New York. As you can see, they are not doing our white crane forms, but they are very similar in the structure of the forms.

BQ, I still haven't found anything about the school in Texas.

[Baqualin]

Not really. Ive never heard of any sub Sd related school here in Austin or anywhere else in Texas for that matter. When it comes to the Shaolin name here in Texas, SD has cornered the market on that. But the general consensus about Sd in Austin with respect to the other TCMA schools is pretty much the same. No-one really harasses the SD folks in Austin because there is a respect for each others buisness and the need to make money and thats as far as it goes(what is said behind closed doors is a totally different matter).
There was recently a martial arts convention here in Austin and SD was there. All the schools got together and did their thing and aside from all the sharing and coming together it was about making the money and getting the word out on the different schools here in austin(nothing wrong with that at all, this is America).


Peace,TWS
A newby on here had run across their web site & was wanting to know what was up.
Wasn't looking at it as a sub SD school...by looking at the web site I felt that they had just ripped our temple list...MK has stated the same. I just thought you might be familar with the school and could give us a little insite....not an opportunity to open your can of SD hate worms:(

[Baqualin]

Hey. Do you guys allow outsiders. I'm up for sparring, law lectures, etc.... :D . Ain't no shame in my game :D .

CS

I don't have a problem with it, since it's unoffical...as far as I'm concerned anybodies welcome that has a love of CMA...and considering your lineage is out of the same temple it would be very interesting to have you along.:)

[Flaca]

Hey JP the White Crane school you mentioned is it in Texas...GMS is looking for the son of one of his collegues that has a white crane school...he was told it is somewhere in Texas?




Doing research on this right now....

Any idea of a name? There is a White Crane store afiliated with Aoma.edu and there is a small ma academy in the same group. The website mentions the White Crane store, but not the MA classes. I know it exists because it's near my house and I've walked around a few times.

[Citong Shifu]

I don't have a problem with it, since it's unoffical...as far as I'm concerned anybodies welcome that has a love of CMA...and considering your lineage is out of the same temple it would be very interesting to have you along.:)

BQ, works for me. Please keep me informed. Do you know if your going to heading this way for the X-mas Hoildays? I'm looking forward to your visit...

CS

[Citong Shifu]

I don't have a problem with it, since it's unoffical...as far as I'm concerned anybodies welcome that has a love of CMA...and considering your lineage is out of the same temple it would be very interesting to have you along.:)


BQ, Unofficial, I'm always unofficial. I dont have much tolerance for the CMA politics... I believe its unproductive and wish to spend my time training.... I tell my students all the time, there's two types of people, people who talk about this and that and there's people who do or show action. Of course, that lecture is always followed by, stut up and lets train, lol :D . Gotta love old school methods... Anywho, I'll be around...

Later.
CS.

[Baqualin]

Any idea of a name? There is a White Crane store afiliated with Aoma.edu and there is a small ma academy in the same group. The website mentions the White Crane store, but not the MA classes. I know it exists because it's near my house and I've walked around a few times.

I'll get more info from GMS about his name.....Master Joe seemed to think it might be in Houston, but wasn't for sure. I would love to find out for him:)

[Baqualin]

BQ, works for me. Please keep me informed. Do you know if your going to heading this way for the X-mas Hoildays? I'm looking forward to your visit...

CS

I was going to, but my son is coming home from his second tour in Iraq, so I'm staying here in Lexington...it's the first Xmas he's been with us in 3 yrs. plus he will have my Grand Daughter with him...I'm very excited and nervous at the same time until he gets out of there...he's at Camp Anaconda outside of Blad where a bunch of **** is going on now. Anyway I'm taking a few vacation days to spend with him....all he's talking about now is Deer hunting and I've got a pretty good hunt set up for him...so it looks like spring for me before I will be in your area. I'm looking forward to visiting your school also.:)

[Green Cloud]

Your response says alot about you......I hope you know I wasn't trying to slam you, I see your the real deal...I was just making a point. Yes some in SD make claims they know nothing about....Just like all the material you teach is under the Green Cloud school...all the material we teach is under the SD school, no time has GMS ever claimed our material is one system.....each system is it's own and has a separate lineage. I would also like to say that your lucky to have chosen the life style you have...I would love to do MA all day long everyday. Hopefully we can meet in person someday:)

No offense taken Baqualin thanks for the compliment and I would love to meet you sometime.

As far as some of my comments please keep in mind that they are not directed to everyone, just certain people that spread false missleading info.

I've had some good debates with some good folks on this site.

[Invincible Yang]

The contact information on the website is: Scott Kimak, 956-425-2468.
I hope there is some good info to be exchanged.

[Green Cloud]

hello all,

i vote we forgive him and try to understand his frustration ...

"Obey the rules of society.
Demonstrate excellent martial art spirit.
Respect elders and honor friends.
Be kind and love others.
Show good faith to others and keep their trust.
Support the weak and aid the needy.
Demonstrate good conduct and excellent learning spirit.
Cultivate the body and nourish the spirit.
Be disciplined, be generous, be honest, be loyal and give forgiveness.
Be alert, be wise, be open minded and be patient.

ie chang ming"

those of us who practice shaolin do should try to live up to these ideas.

as hard as it can be to have people dout what you do or seemingly try to discredit what you do we must continue to practice/study our chosen art and become great examples, lead by example. shaolin do students should not engage in name calling and shaolin do students should have their facts straight before they say this or that is or isnt. i think many of the misconceptions regarding shaolin do have been as a result of students stateing things as fact that they do not know for fact. "thus i have heard" might be a good way to present history you are not sure of.

gus has said some things that i do not agree with and at times can be a little insulting but for the most part i think he has asked honest questions and since this is an open forum this is what you do ask questions and debate ... he seems to be an excellent martial artist i look forward to meeting him at some point in my travels to see what he has to offer.

at any rate gus deserves respect for his time and effort as does tattoedmonk so instead of insulting each other please remain respectful. gus i am sure you are senior in cma to many of us here so you might set an example for us to follow.

keep digging for the truth ...


Thanks for the respect and much respect back to you, as I have said before SD is a huge organization and my commects are not directed to everyone.

I realize that a every organization has a few bad eggs.

[Green Cloud]

BQ, works for me. Please keep me informed. Do you know if your going to heading this way for the X-mas Hoildays? I'm looking forward to your visit...

CS

Citong Sifu the color red must be your trade mark or something, but i'm not sure if you realize trying to read some of your longer posts is like Chinese water torture:) I'm sure you have some good things to say but the color red makes my eyes bug out when I'm trying to get through some of your posts.

[BentMonk]

Don't worry if we get this put together we'll make sure you get there:D

One of my favorite things about SD, we genuinely look out for each other. Thank you.

[Citong Shifu]

Citong Sifu the color red must be your trade mark or something, but i'm not sure if you realize trying to read some of your longer posts is like Chinese water torture:) I'm sure you have some good things to say but the color red makes my eyes bug out when I'm trying to get through some of your posts.

GC, Sorry about that. I'm so use to red print its just kinda habit. I'll resist the urge from now on, lol.

CS.

[tattooedmonk]

OK now I know your just stupid, as I have said before research what nothing of what you say is written anywhere. Exploring the philosiphical and religious systems, WTF does that mean nothing I've read ever mentions SD exept for the propiganda on the SD web sites that are vague to begin with:ptry reading some books rather than the internet...I guess you really are clueless....do you undetstand what shaolin was , became, and is??? it is not just what you think it is or was ...you just like to live in your own little fantasy world where everything fits into you frame of what it is and is not...

[tattooedmonk]

You should do some reading about Shaolin and you will discover it isn't some obscure, mystical, philosophical concept. Masterkiller mentioned Brian Kennedy's book for good reading on Shaolin. Research is key.

As for Green Cloud, he is a lineage holder of Chan Tai San. If you doubt Green Cloud's legitimacy, look up Chan Tai San. you need to read some books and not the internet...get a clue...the history is out there you just have to look ...judging by your posts all over this forum you need to get a life...grow up and get aclue!!

[tattooedmonk]

ttm is no longer affiliated with csc or shaolin do....

his comments are grating and close minded to me. they lack in logical understanding of debate.

I still support master Sin and the art .. boy this thread just brings out the B!tch in all of you ( this applys to whom it may)

[The Xia]

tattooedmonk is still talking smack! :rolleyes:

[kungfujunky]

I still support master Sin and the art .. boy this thread just brings out the B!tch in all of you ( this applys to whom it may)

im sorry ttm but you are the one being out of line

no one else is using derogatory or flaming remarks unless they are directing them at you

you may well support master sin but he would smack you in the mouth if he ever saw you speak to your peers in such a manner


if there is literature that these people should read can you list the titles for us. id like to read it as well.

instead of saying whatever all of the time and then talking like an idiot educate us. what should we read.

[Green Cloud]

try reading some books rather than the internet...I guess you really are clueless....do you undetstand what shaolin was , became, and is??? it is not just what you think it is or was ...you just like to live in your own little fantasy world where everything fits into you frame of what it is and is not...

I was just at Barns nad Noble there are no books on SD idiot.

[Green Cloud]

I still vote that the tattoed monk gets thrown out of SD, it's guys like him that represent the style in a bad way.

[Judge Pen]

I still vote that the tattoed monk gets thrown out of SD, it's guys like him that represent the style in a bad way.

From what I've read in his threads in the past, he is no longer affiliated with SD although he adamantly asserts that he supports Master Sin. So, technically, I think what you want to happen has already happened GC

[ninthdrunk]

For all his talk of supporting Grandmaster sin, and honoring his wishes, or however you want to put it....I really think TTM has no clue what GMS wants from his students.

As I've said before, he wants us to be ambassadors of the art...not soldiers. He wants us to spread the shaolin way with sincerity, openness, confidence and humility. I don't think GMS would EVER resort to verbally bashing someone because of a difference in opinion.

TTM - I agree with KFJ. I would also like to read up on all this information that has given you such a great insight as to why all these other people are wrong about what shaolin is and is not.

[Radhnoti]

There is a shaolin-do book actually...

http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Do-James-Halladay/dp/0787212423/sr=1-1/qid=1161364924/ref=sr_1_1/102-2460898-6089717?ie=UTF8&s=books

Not that it makes a big difference...and I'm aware that doesn't actually change the thrust of GC's point that SD exists outside the kung-fu mainstream. Also, I know several people who'd refute some of the author's (who apparently co-authored with GM Sin) points. Like the name shaolin-do being used for the school in Indonesia...and maybe a few more historical points.

[KungFu Student]

For all his talk of supporting Grandmaster sin, and honoring his wishes, or however you want to put it....I really think TTM has no clue what GMS wants from his students.

As I've said before, he wants us to be ambassadors of the art...not soldiers. He wants us to spread the shaolin way with sincerity, openness, confidence and humility. I don't think GMS would EVER resort to verbally bashing someone because of a difference in opinion.

TTM - I agree with KFJ. I would also like to read up on all this information that has given you such a great insight as to why all these other people are wrong about what shaolin is and is not.

While I do not agree with the SD bashing that goes on in this forum, I also realize that there is not much that can sway the pro and anti SD'ers one way or another. Both sides can argue and debate history and lineage until they are blue in the face, when the time could be better spent on discussing each other's art in a respectful way. In the past, when someone had a problem with a school, many times a challenge was issued, and the differences hopefully settled. Today, we have to settle for debating it over the internet, which obviously is not the best way to do it. The one thing that bother's me, and I have touched on it in my previous post, is that many automatically make the jump that when they hear someone is from a SD school, then they must be terrible martial artists, based on what little they have heard, seen on the internet, ect. I, like many other classmates, work very hard on our training, and I have seen what I believe is pretty crappy TCMA, as well as some very good technique. So we don't corner the market on that aspect. :) So, I would like to see us "agreeing to disagree" about what bothers us about SD vs. TCMA, and work towards the future of MA. We are all ambassadors to those who do not practice, or have an interest to do so. We should follow the example of what all great martial artists should strive towards, peace, respect, humility and the cultivation of our chosen art.

[BentMonk]

While I do not agree with the SD bashing that goes on in this forum, I also realize that there is not much that can sway the pro and anti SD'ers one way or another. Both sides can argue and debate history and lineage until they are blue in the face, when the time could be better spent on discussing each other's art in a respectful way. In the past, when someone had a problem with a school, many times a challenge was issued, and the differences hopefully settled. Today, we have to settle for debating it over the internet, which obviously is not the best way to do it. The one thing that bother's me, and I have touched on it in my previous post, is that many automatically make the jump that when they hear someone is from a SD school, then they must be terrible martial artists, based on what little they have heard, seen on the internet, ect. I, like many other classmates, work very hard on our training, and I have seen what I believe is pretty crappy TCMA, as well as some very good technique. So we don't corner the market on that aspect. :) So, I would like to see us "agreeing to disagree" about what bothers us about SD vs. TCMA, and work towards the future of MA. We are all ambassadors to those who do not practice, or have an interest to do so. We should follow the example of what all great martial artists should strive towards, peace, respect, humility and the cultivation of our chosen art.

Exactly. Well said.

[ninthdrunk]

I'm really confused why my post was quoted with the above post.

[The Willow Sword]

So anyone have any idea as to WHO Tattoedmonk is? If he was a Texas SD Peep out of Shaefers School then i may know exactly who he is. If i am correct about this then i can kinda understand why everyone allows him to get under Their skin. If i am not correct then i have no idea.

TTM? Pm me and let me know, ill be discreet about it. as i am about KC's Identity. hehe i know exactly who he is:rolleyes: .


Peace,TWS

[ninthdrunk]

He's never claimed to be out of Austin. I believe he said he's from somewhere out west...either LA or Colorado somewheres.


TWS - did you get to check out the big martial arts event that just passed in Austin. I hope they do it again when I'm home next year! If you did get to go, how was it? Anything particularly noteworthy?

[The Willow Sword]

I was out of town that weekend so No i did not attend. Given how i feel about SD now and Especially how i feel about Joe Shaefer, i wouldnt have gone to it anyway considering that the Sd crew and himself was there(and a judge in the internal and kung fu competitions).

I just assume not show up and be tempted to confront or sit there and wonder why Sd was allowed to be a judge in the TCMA and Internal competitions. Besides i had a better time rock climbing and cave crawling out at Enchanted Rock, the weather there was gorgeous:)


Peace, TWS

[Flaca]

I was out of town that weekend so No i did not attend. Given how i feel about SD now and Especially how i feel about Joe Shaefer, i wouldnt have gone to it anyway considering that the Sd crew and himself was there(and a judge in the internal and kung fu competitions).

I just assume not show up and be tempted to confront or sit there and wonder why Sd was allowed to be a judge in the TCMA and Internal competitions. Besides i had a better time rock climbing and cave crawling out at Enchanted Rock, the weather there was gorgeous:)


Peace, TWS

Ummm, MJ was out of town too, so didn't attend the Martial Arts Festival. SD was invited by the organizer, and I see the organizer used MJ's picture, but he didn't attend. Your choice of words is interesting: MJ was asked to judge, not allowed...
I know of only one person who did attend, but he didn't have much to say.
http://www.amafest.org/

[tattooedmonk]

I was just at Barns nad Noble there are no books on SD idiot.did I say that it was to be found in a book at barnes and noble or a book on Shaolin specifically??

[tattooedmonk]

I still vote that the tattoed monk gets thrown out of SD, it's guys like him that represent the style in a bad way.This has already happened .I was kicked out of CSC"S...

however I was offered by a few masters in SDA to join their schools..still have yet to decide.....

...I do not represent the art in a bad way ...just different

...I do not do martial arts for the money or fame .....and I dislike politics.

I do martial arts for what they were intended for and that is the way I teach.

If I seem a little harsh or out of lines at times ..oh well

there have always been masters/ teachers like me....

...even in the movies there are masters/ teachers who were like me ...and usually they were the best and turned out the best students / disciples....

why is this???

and why is it that these guys are the favorite in the movies even though they are out casts/ renegades??

Because they eliminate all the non intrinsic elements and do not care about anything other than what truely matters.

[tattooedmonk]

So anyone have any idea as to WHO Tattoedmonk is? If he was a Texas SD Peep out of Shaefers School then i may know exactly who he is. If i am correct about this then i can kinda understand why everyone allows him to get under Their skin. If i am not correct then i have no idea.

TTM? Pm me and let me know, ill be discreet about it. as i am about KC's Identity. hehe i know exactly who he is:rolleyes: .


Peace,TWS sorry not a chance...it does not matter anyway....

[tattooedmonk]

For all his talk of supporting Grandmaster sin, and honoring his wishes, or however you want to put it....I really think TTM has no clue what GMS wants from his students.

As I've said before, he wants us to be ambassadors of the art...not soldiers. He wants us to spread the shaolin way with sincerity, openness, confidence and humility. I don't think GMS would EVER resort to verbally bashing someone because of a difference in opinion.

TTM - I agree with KFJ. I would also like to read up on all this information that has given you such a great insight as to why all these other people are wrong about what shaolin is and is not.I know what Master Sin wants from his students he has told me personally many times...

the great thing about Master Sin is that he influences people but does not try to change them. He accepts people for who they are...he knows very well how I am and knows that I am yang compared to the Yin within the system ( or visa versa ...just depends on your perspective) The art needs soldiers too. this is the duality of our existance....

He never questioned my devotion to the art or to him. I made mistakes while was in the art...mostly because of politics...I do not believe that just because someone is given rank/ power that they should abuse it....nor do I believe that just because someone is given rank /power that they are deserving of it...especially if it is given because someone knows how to kiss a lot of A$$!!

I was betrayed and lied about to have me removed from the CSC"S. and was never asked or had a chance to explain or defend myself...

The CSC organization uses fear to get their students to follow rules rather than teaching the proper discipline to foster the skills neccesary to become a superior martial artist... they mass produce students in cookie cutter form and if you do not follow that form to the "T" then you risk losing everything within the program, rank, friends , etc.

I use tactics against people that use them against me ......sometimes you have to use yin against yang or yang against yang ( this has been my method off and on ) or yang against yin or yin against yin ....it just depends on the situation...

[Judge Pen]

I just assume not show up and be tempted to confront or sit there and wonder why Sd was allowed to be a judge in the TCMA and Internal competitions.

:rolleyes: Just keep wondering....

[kungfujunky]

I
The CSC organization uses fear to get their students to follow rules rather than teaching the proper discipline to foster the skills neccesary to become a superior martial artist... they mass produce students in cookie cutter form and if you do not follow that form to the "T" then you risk losing everything within the program, rank, friends , etc.

I..

what a crock man.

fear is not used at all in anything csc does. you were removed because of your actions. not others.

own up

[tattooedmonk]

what a crock man.

fear is not used at all in anything csc does. you were removed because of your actions. not others.

own upoh and how long have you been in the system?? have you or are you an instructor or a black belt??

it takes two to tango ......no none person is ever at fault ...I could not have stayed in the school for 15 years if I was not doing what I was suppose to but I had enough of the bull$h!t...plus I can give you at least half a dozen peoples names that will tell you that you do not know what you are talking about....

I already did own up...can you not read the part were I said that I made mistakes??

[The Willow Sword]

I remember when i attened an AAU tourney in Round Rock and placed 1st in the advanced mens sparring and placed 2nd in mens advanced forms and 3rd in mens advanced weapons. This was at the height of my SD stay.

Its not that Sd shouldnt be a part of these tourneys,however i dont think that they should be allowed to "judge" the competitions, certainly they and other hybrid martial art schools should be allowed to step up and demonstrate their "Tao".

TTM. well then you are not who i had initially thought. Sorry you got ousted from SD and are now a Rogue, seems like we have something in common, yet you still have loyalty to it, and i dont. regardless you have my respect.

Peace,TWS

[kungfujunky]

yeah you said you made mistakes then follow it up by saying other people said things that werent true blah blah blah. thats not owning up. thats shifting blame.

i am a black belt and an instructor. i am not ruled by fear.

you were kicked out.

i have zero sympathy for your plight and i think you are a **** poor representation of our art.

you have not once answered a request for help in understanding your point of view or where you get your ideas from. you have not once held an intelligent conversation on here without insulting someone.

you are a holier than thou conceited piece of work.

please dont help the sd csc crowd anymore. you have been out of the system for to long and your aggressive antagonistic posts do not help gmt or his schools.

[Flaca]

...
Its not that Sd shouldnt be a part of these tourneys,however i dont think that they should be allowed to "judge" the competitions, certainly they and other hybrid martial art schools should be allowed to step up and demonstrate their "Tao".

Again, MJ was invited to judge, not "allowed to judge", but he was out of town that weekend. I guess the organizers of the festival felt differently than you.

[godzillakungfu]

Look everyone has their POV. I'm prettty sure it is somewhere in the middle.

I've seen both side so, I know you are both partially wrong. I've seen people kicked out and allowed back in. I've seen people who should've been kicked out allowed to continue training. I've seen some deserved kick outs and some undeserved.

It happens move on.

KFJ are you SD or CSC? It is curiosity not, "here let me hammer you with facts."

[kungfujunky]

csc

and if my facts are off based then pleas elet me know. i have it from more than a couple people but i know how that stuff works. if im wrong i will of course apologize...but the fact remains ttm is not helping our case here at all with his attitude

[kwaichang]

Well I havent posted on here for a reason. I went to the Ground Monkey 2nd road and was honored to spend some time with GMT I was also able to ask certain questions of him in private that many thought I would not be allowed to ask or permitted to post here. They included specific questions about Soo Kong Tai Jin and GGM Ie Chang Ming and the History etc. Also about why certain aspects of SD are included in the curriculum etc. Well as I said I have not posted on here for a while and have pretty much stopped reading the BS posted here. The reason being is I my self was beginning to doubt the authenticity of SD and the history of SD. This kind of doubt breeds more doubt.

So having found the truth I no longer wish to argue the point. I am just sad that I was influenced by some of you and swayed in what I believe and know to be true.

GM Th'e is one of the greatest people I have ever met. When I arrived in Lexington for the seminar he was teaching 8 people the 3rd and 4th road of the Golden Leopard. He didnt have to and guess what he did it free . Just a point for those who think he is just money hungry.

Well that is all except that I will tell you guys, and especially you TWS, that what we in SD do and the history is very real and Very Shaolin. I feel sorry for those who read this forum and do not experience SD because of it. It is sad that some of you have such a Biased view of what Shaolin is, whether it is due to you not liking some teacher of SD or for what ever reason it is truly sad.

I am sure many of you will continue to argue or want to know specifics of what was said, well sorry no can do . I will not divuldge that info but sufice it to say I will never quit SD and dont give a RATS A$$ what any of you think. Remember know the truth and it will set you free. KC:)

[Baqualin]

Well I havent posted on here for a reason. I went to the Ground Monkey 2nd road and was honored to spend some time with GMT I was also able to ask certain questions of him in private that many thought I would not be allowed to ask or permitted to post here. They included specific questions about Soo Kong Tai Jin and GGM Ie Chang Ming and the History etc. Also about why certain aspects of SD are included in the curriculum etc. Well as I said I have not posted on here for a while and have pretty much stopped reading the BS posted here. The reason being is I my self was beginning to doubt the authenticity of SD and the history of SD. This kind of doubt breeds more doubt.

So having found the truth I no longer wish to argue the point. I am just sad that I was influenced by some of you and swayed in what I believe and know to be true.

GM Th'e is one of the greatest people I have ever met. When I arrived in Lexington for the seminar he was teaching 8 people the 3rd and 4th road of the Golden Leopard. He didnt have to and guess what he did it free . Just a point for those who think he is just money hungry.

Well that is all except that I will tell you guys, and especially you TWS, that what we in SD do and the history is very real and Very Shaolin. I feel sorry for those who read this forum and do not experience SD because of it. It is sad that some of you have such a Biased view of what Shaolin is, whether it is due to you not liking some teacher of SD or for what ever reason it is truly sad.

I am sure many of you will continue to argue or want to know specifics of what was said, well sorry no can do . I will not divuldge that info but sufice it to say I will never quit SD and dont give a RATS A$$ what any of you think. Remember know the truth and it will set you free. KC:)

Feels good doesn't it.;)

[The Willow Sword]

I was also able to ask certain questions of him in private that many thought I would not be allowed to ask or permitted to post here. They included specific questions about Soo Kong Tai Jin and GGM Ie Chang Ming and the History etc. Also about why certain aspects of SD are included in the curriculum etc. Well as I said I have not posted on here for a while and have pretty much stopped reading the BS posted here. The reason being is I my self was beginning to doubt the authenticity of SD and the history of SD. This kind of doubt breeds more doubt.


well that was pretty cryptic:rolleyes: and as far as i am concerned doesnt give any credability. you bait us with this conversation without any explanations as to what was asked and what was replied? come on you actually expect some of us to believe this and take you on your word KC?:confused:

KC why dont you PM me with the details of your conversation. as always my integrity is solid even in the face of this new BS and as always i am discreet about things in PM. I would think that of all the peeps here that you would want to set straight on things it would be yer ole pal Willow Sword ;)
Always,TWS

[kwaichang]

Whether you feel I am BS or not does not matter. " He who knows and knows he knows has wisdom" follow him. Bagualin can confirm that I spent time with GMT and may confirm it if he wishes. Or not. But I will say I took many of my questions from your and others recommendations. As I will not question your honor DO NOT QUESTION MINE. I do not want to expound on what was said as I have too much respect for GMT, as a teacher and as a human being KC

[The Willow Sword]

Well Then KC i am going to assume that you like many others were Told alot of BS and like myself i was able to wake up and see the light and get away from it. Until you decide you want to communicate with me about all this then i am going to continue to go on the research i have discovered and will continue to see SD as a system that misrepresents itself and wallows in its nepotism and favoritism, and whose followers are BLIND and in total denial of what reality is.

You do no creedence to SD by being quiet about your alleged conversation with Sin the', in fact if you had any integrity whatsoever KC you wouldnt have even mentioned on this forum about your little chat. As i have always seen you KC is someone who is out for his own self interests rather than the interests of others(kind of contradictory since you seem to follow the true shaolin way) . Your above posts are not for anyones benfit other than your own inflated view of yourself.
its insulting and down right Rude., as i am being right now because i have had it with you and this soap opera.

you all can go to hell as far as i am concerned.

TWS

[kungfujunky]

because he was given information in confidence and does not wish to divulge it he is being rude?

you tws are a whiner and a baby

get over it already.

[Yao Sing]

I was under the impression that you were collecting questions to ask with the intent that the answers were returned to the forum. I doubt people here were giving you questions to ask for your own personal enlightenment.

I also think this sounds a lot like someone who's seen the light and found the Lord so to speak. Kind of reinforces the cult accusations.

I think you should have just kept it to yourself. It looks really cheesy and contrived now. Not that you really care, I'm sure.

[Baqualin]

Now children lets not get started again:)

[kwaichang]

Hey guys no one even sent me any questions to ask. I wanted you to but since you didnt I owe you nothing. so anyway. I tried to get you guys to help I was able to derive what you wanted I think???. But I was not sure. You all are just madd because I was able to get answers that only you all can guess about. It was TWS that said I do not have enough pull to even ask questions of GMTh'e. So I owe you nothing. The reason I posted anyway was to let you guys know I did it and to let you know what I thought after I talked to GMT. KC

[The Willow Sword]

:rolleyes:

[Ralphie]

Sounds like an exciting day of re-programming, K.C.

TWS, I think you should get off of the SD guys' collective arses. It comes off as total whiney baby stuff. Anyone with either experience or sense realizes the lineage of shao lin do is suspect at best, and total bs lies at worst. Regardless, it doesn't change SD for what it is, or isn't.

You should also "challenge" this schaffer dude, or ask him out on a date to cave crawling. Either way, you can get on or over with your relationship with him.

TTM, your a legend in your own fissured mind. I actually hope you continue to post, because your delusions are what's kept this thread fun. That, and Lo Valla's Manifesto.

[godzillakungfu]

csc

and if my facts are off based then pleas elet me know. i have it from more than a couple people but i know how that stuff works. if im wrong i will of course apologize...but the fact remains ttm is not helping our case here at all with his attitude
No, I'm saying it is somewhere in the middle. I'm not saying either one of you is wrong it is a matter of perspective.

I agree with you about TTM.

[Judge Pen]

Well Then KC i am going to assume that you like many others were Told alot of BS and like myself i was able to wake up and see the light and get away from it. Until you decide you want to communicate with me about all this then i am going to continue to go on the research i have discovered and will continue to see SD as a system that misrepresents itself and wallows in its nepotism and favoritism, and whose followers are BLIND and in total denial of what reality is.

You do no creedence to SD by being quiet about your alleged conversation with Sin the', in fact if you had any integrity whatsoever KC you wouldnt have even mentioned on this forum about your little chat. As i have always seen you KC is someone who is out for his own self interests rather than the interests of others(kind of contradictory since you seem to follow the true shaolin way) . Your above posts are not for anyones benfit other than your own inflated view of yourself.
its insulting and down right Rude., as i am being right now because i have had it with you and this soap opera.

you all can go to hell as far as i am concerned.

TWS

If it bothers you that bad, just don't look...don't post...don't care like you claim not to. TWS, I hope you find the peace in your life that you proclaim, but we all know you're not going to change most people's minds and no one is trying to change yours. But, really, telling everyone to go to hell is just plain rude.

[Judge Pen]

because he was given information in confidence and does not wish to divulge it he is being rude?


I agree. KC is satisfied, but, objectively, did we expect him not to be? If every question was answered by Sin The himself there would be the people that already belive him saying "see, he answered the questions" and there will be others that say "its all bs" and a few will be objective and point to the things that made sense as good and to the things that are unsupportable as meaning nothing. This arguement will never end here. Its a forum full of opinions, which means what is said here is meaningless.

[MasterKiller]

Same thing happened when TheMeecer started listening and asked Sin some questions. He came back a true believer but wouldn't divulge the 'why'.

So what's the deal? Does Sin whip out a 13-in. c0ck in these private converstaions or something? Because that would impress me enough to believe anything he says.

[kungfujunky]

Same thing happened when TheMeecer started listening and asked Sin some questions. He came back a true believer but wouldn't divulge the 'why'.

So what's the deal? Does Sin whip out a 13-in. c0ck in these private converstaions or something? Because that would impress me enough to believe anything he says.

that comment is just plain revolting. martial artists are supposed to respect others no matter who or what they are. you sir are a joke.

you are just an ass mk

that comment is flat out childish.

you know why people arent devulging what is told to them in confidence?

because your tiny little minds and huge fricking egos wont listen no matter what we say.

[MasterKiller]

You know a 13-incher would impress you, too, KFJ. Quit lying.

[Judge Pen]

If someone wants to believe something then it would take very little to convince them. If I ask someone questions in private, then I tend to keep their answers confidential. I'm convinced that most of the dubious areas of SD's history originated in Indonesia and GMST is perpetuating what he was told as a youngster. Couple that with the fact that many records were destroyed in China's history and the PRC's cultural revolution, then there will never be conclusive evidence one way or the other.

The best evidence against SD's history is the absence of references in other style's lineage. However, there's more than just SD that run up against that problem.

The moral of the story, don't worry so much about history and focus more on fundamentals and application. A good martial artist is a good marital artist and debates about whose teacher has the real stuff and who is lying etc just detract from the important things--how good are your abilities? Can you make them work for you?

[Baqualin]

You know a 13-incher would impress you, too, KFJ. Quit lying.

Are trying to tell us your coming out of the closet.:D

[MasterKiller]

Are trying to tell us your coming out of the closet.:D

Only if Sin can produce the 13-incher and show me the light as he has KC and themeecer.

[Baqualin]

Whether you feel I am BS or not does not matter. " He who knows and knows he knows has wisdom" follow him. Bagualin can confirm that I spent time with GMT and may confirm it if he wishes. Or not. But I will say I took many of my questions from your and others recommendations. As I will not question your honor DO NOT QUESTION MINE. I do not want to expound on what was said as I have too much respect for GMT, as a teacher and as a human being KC

I shouldn't have to confirm anything KC your word is good.....for the rest, yes he did, he was at my house.:)

[The Willow Sword]

Sd struggles so hard on this forum to get the respect they think they deserve and to be acknowleged as a legitamate and authentic CMA yet when they say they have the answers and proof they dont deliver the good to set us all straight,especially those who lived and breathed sd for 8+years and who dedicated themselves and their life to the school. If my research is wrong then please tell me where it is wrong? and tell the rest of us who dont believe or buy in to the "we're the true shaolin" what we need to know in order TO accept and acknowlege you as the "True Shaolin" and that SIn the' is the "SOLE INHERITOR" of the Entire shaolin curriculum.

Just about every other TCMA school or school with direct ties to the shaolin temple discounts everything that is claimed by SD and sin the',,EVERYTHING. as a result SD remains not a part of the martial community but rather a self proclaimed elitest that you rarely or NEVER see at any of the major tournaments that go on in this country and in china. instead all we have are pictures of everyone standing in front of the shaolin temple in china, or some monument erected to say that SD was there and that is supposed to give automatic legitamacy to who you people claim you are connected into? Its strange that with all the holes in the history that the Shaolin Temple in hunan doesnt recognize you guys other than you are another group that goes to visit and puts money in to markers to honor THEM. Its the same with the other schools in china that you have visited where you have put your honor marker at(which doesnt make you any more legitamate)
The losing of history at the hands of the communist gov in china or the PRC is not as lost as you may think. PLus the southern shaolin temple(whose History and timeline doesnt match up with Your alls) doesnt seem to recognize you guys either other than you go there to visit and be tourists and do a demonstration(as many other schools around the world have done)
Why would the Southern Temple that has now been rebuilt not be contacting you guys and saying "please come home and reinstate the curriculum there and put up the pictures of "Su kong" or "Ie Chang ming" or even make Sin the' the head abbot of that temple since it is claimed and apparantly you guys have the answers we all seek with respects to it? Dont tell me that the mean ole communists there keep you guys at bay and wont allow what is by your standards and history rightfully yours to claim since your alls TRUE ART came form there and no-one else. :rolleyes:

No the answers are there and the research has been done and it tells us ALL(even if you do not wish to accept it and be in a perpetual state of denial) is that All your school really is, is another hybrid Mixed martial art that rides the coattail of something greater than yourself for the soul purpose of making money and capitolizing on the american way of life(not that this is in anyway a bad thing to do, i am not suggesting that at all) The difference is that others who have come here to capitolize have done so in a manner that doesnt state outlandish claims and makes others out to be some flowery watered down representation of what You guys claim as "the true way".

SO if all of this is just a big mistake and you baqualin and KC and Kungfujunky have been told and are souly convinced, then put it to rest here and help to elevate your school and proclaim and make legitamate to the rest of the TCMA world that You guys ARE IN FACT The True and original lost art of Shaolin Direct from the Southern Temple.
And for me it starts with Su kong, because if you guys can show and provide us all with the information needed to without a doubt identify who he is and his direct lineage to the southern Temple and why there is a picture of him in a 1930's american made suit and tie and explain the other pictures of him that we have found, then i will humbly and gracefully accept my mistake and you will never hear from me ever again. And i am sure that Gene Ching would be interested in this info as well and he may do another article on it since this seems to be THE MAIN Topic in this whole forum that is the most debated and questioned.
You guys would get the acknowledge ment and the respect from the rest of the TCMA world that you feel you deserve(whether you care about what they think and feel or not) obviously you DO care or else this thread wouldnt be as long as it is.
We all are waiting,,,TWS

[GeneChing]

I'm not planning to do an article on SD anytime in the near future. I've had an offer to explore the southern temple with Professor Meir Shahar (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=521). He's starting to look into the Southern temple and just recently returned from a preliminary research trip there. I'm hoping that we can go next year. But beleive me, finding Su Kong is the last of my concerns. There are far more pressing issues. I'd be happy to find validation of the five elders. Research on the southern temple is a freaking mess.

[Judge Pen]

I'm not planning to do an article on SD anytime in the near future. I've had an offer to explore the southern temple with Professor Meir Shahar (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=521). He's starting to look into the Southern temple and just recently returned from a preliminary research trip there. I'm hoping that we can go next year. But beleive me, finding Su Kong is the last of my concerns. There are far more pressing issues. I'd be happy to find validation of the five elders. Research on the southern temple is a freaking mess.


Serindipity, Gene. Sometimes you find the most amazing things when you aren't looking for them.

Seriously, I'd be interested in verification of the five elders or anything regarding the Southern temple. There are many that question anything that lays claim to a southern temple lineage.

[Judge Pen]

a picture of him in a 1930's american made suit and tie

How do you know it was a 1930s american made suit? Are you an expert in historical fasion trends? :)

You know TWS, I'm not as hard on you as some. It's not that you don't make a valid point from time to time--you do. There's no real proof of the history of SD prior to Sin The coming to America other than the word of the man himself (which means little to nothing to most here). If you want to call SD a hybrid martial art then I'm fine with it. Doesn't bother me a bit. I actually agree with that description incidentally.

The thing is you railed so ardently in your SD claims as to how legitimate it was that it seems you feel you must make amends by now arguing equally ardently for the other side. In the meantime, your heart is on your sleeve bleeding over everything. There are many here who lack credibility in what they say and you are not the least of them. I think you would be a happier person if you just let all this negative energy go instead of holding yourself out as some type of anti-SD expert when all it looks like is that your holding a grudge and grinding an axe.

[Baqualin]

Sd struggles so hard on this forum to get the respect they think they deserve and to be acknowleged as a legitamate and authentic CMA
[I don't see anybody struggling on here except you, I'm very happy with SD and don't plan on getting kicked out anytime soon/B]

yet when they say they have the answers and proof they dont deliver the good to set us all straight,especially those who lived and breathed sd for 8+years and who dedicated themselves and their life to the school. If my research is wrong then please tell me where it is wrong?

[B]Tell me where it's right and what have you PROVEN besides your sourness towards SD and have you traveled to Indonesia and talked to GMS's colleagues

and tell the rest of us who dont believe or buy in to the "we're the true shaolin" what we need to know in order TO accept and acknowlege you as the "True Shaolin" and that SIn the' is the "SOLE INHERITOR" of the Entire shaolin curriculum.




Just about every other TCMA school or school with direct ties to the shaolin temple discounts everything that is claimed by SD and sin the',,EVERYTHING.

Competition...makes since, our lineage came through Indonesia

as a result SD remains not a part of the martial community but rather a self proclaimed elitest that you rarely or NEVER see at any of the major tournaments that go on in this country and in china. instead all we have are pictures of everyone standing in front of the shaolin temple in china, or some monument erected to say that SD was there and that is supposed to give automatic legitamacy to who you people claim you are connected into? Its strange that with all the holes in the history that the Shaolin Temple in hunan doesnt recognize you guys other than you are another group that goes to visit and puts money in to markers to honor THEM. Its the same with the other schools in china that you have visited where you have put your honor marker at(which doesnt make you any more legitamate)

Maybe you need to look at your research a different way, like the spread of Shaolin outside of china into Indonesia and Malaysa. Also GMS & M Hiang participated in tournaments all across the country in the very early years....Table top Sword won a lot of first places. The're students particapating in tourney's and doing very well by the way. There's a few of us planning to attend CS's tourney next fall

The losing of history at the hands of the communist gov in china or the PRC is not as lost as you may think. PLus the southern shaolin temple(whose History and timeline doesnt match up with Your alls) doesnt seem to recognize you guys either other than you go there to visit and be tourists and do a demonstration(as many other schools around the world have done)
Why would the Southern Temple that has now been rebuilt not be contacting you guys and saying "please come home and reinstate the curriculum there and put up the pictures of "Su kong" or "Ie Chang ming" or even make Sin the' the head abbot of that temple since it is claimed and apparantly you guys have the answers we all seek with respects to it? Dont tell me that the mean ole communists there keep you guys at bay and wont allow what is by your standards and history rightfully yours to claim since your alls TRUE ART came form there and no-one else. :rolleyes:

See Gene's statement about the Southern Temple...no need to say anymore

No the answers are there and the research has been done and it tells us ALL(even if you do not wish to accept it and be in a perpetual state of denial) is that All your school really is, is another hybrid Mixed martial art that rides the coattail of something greater than yourself for the soul purpose of making money and capitolizing on the american way of life(not that this is in anyway a bad thing to do, i am not suggesting that at all) The difference is that others who have come here to capitolize have done so in a manner that doesnt state outlandish claims and makes others out to be some flowery watered down representation of what You guys claim as "the true way".

Your opinion....I love how dramatic you are

SO if all of this is just a big mistake and you baqualin and KC and Kungfujunky have been told and are souly convinced, then put it to rest here and help to elevate your school and proclaim and make legitamate to the rest of the TCMA world that You guys ARE IN FACT The True and original lost art of Shaolin Direct from the Southern Temple.

I didn't just see the light....I've been a personal friend and student of GMS for over 32 yrs. (I know his Family & also studied under his brother) and during this time GMS has never giving me a reason to doubt that he is passing on what was passed on to him by GMIe

And for me it starts with Su kong, because if you guys can show and provide us all with the information needed to without a doubt identify who he is and his direct lineage to the southern Temple and why there is a picture of him in a 1930's american made suit and tie and explain the other pictures of him that we have found, then i will humbly and gracefully accept my mistake and you will never hear from me ever again.

I've heard this arguement for 30 yrs. and no one has disproven GMS yet...nether have you, once again...your opinion....everything he has told me has come true down through the years...he believes what GMIe passed on to him


And i am sure that Gene Ching would be interested in this info as well and he may do another article on it since this seems to be THE MAIN Topic in this whole forum that is the most debated and questioned.
You guys would get the acknowledge ment and the respect from the rest of the TCMA world that you feel you deserve(whether you care about what they think and feel or not) obviously you DO care or else this thread wouldnt be as long as it is.

One of the reasons is your still here...when are you going to get a life, we're all waiting:)
We all are waiting,,,TWS

dddddddddd

[BoulderDawg]

Sd struggles so hard on this forum to get the respect they think they deserve and to be acknowleged as a legitamate and authentic CMA yet when they say they have the answers and proof they dont deliver the good to set us all straight

Really? SD Struggles and tries so hard?

Where do you get that notion from? As of yet I haven't seen a single Master or Grandmaster post on this board? Since these are the people that matter in the world of SD, my opinion is that the people who actually shape and form our art could really care less about what is said on this board!:D

I guess the people here who have thousands and thousands of posts can believe that this BB carries such importance if they so desire!:p

[The Willow Sword]

i am assuming that the suit is american made. It is more likely british made. The chinese back in the 30's did not wear these kinds of suits, in fact the suits that the chinese wore in the 1930's was a kind of cross pattern of a western military uniform and the peasant dress of the time. The british highly influenced the suit and tie in hong kong. America cornered the market on that type of dress as well.

SO i am assuming also that in that picture of li baoshu that the suit was taylor made for him on the spot when he went to new york for that strange oddities show.

Judge Pen as to your other comments about me grinding an axe and such. you are absolutely right and i think i have a right to feel like i do. when i first joined sd i had wanted to learn SHaolin Kung fu, i also wanted to be a teacher of it as well so i had higher aspirations for myself. I wanted to be connected in with that whole genre and shape and form my life to that ideal and make my living that way. But i wished to do it in a good way and not have to BS my trip, or have to deal with the myriad of competitive ego that seems to permeate the martial arts realm, i wanted to be different. when i first joined Sd i bought in to all the rhetoric because i genuinely believed that what i was doing was legitamate and that i could establish myself as a respected teacher in that field.
However when the controversies started to make themselves known to me, by people within the SDA and outside, i was faced with quite the dilema, because here i am trying to do things in a decent way and yet i am running up against a myriad of disdain and disrespect for what i believed to be someting good and that would help further my goal of being a teacher.
Even after my issue with Joe i still thought that i could maybe join SD elsewhere and get away from that lack of integrity and mess he threw at me. But i decided to listen to what other people were telling me and look at things in an objective manner, when i did my research and came up with what i did, it angered me beyond belief and it broke my heart, to think that all this time i was putting my time and money and heart in to some thing that misrepresents itself on a grand scale AND who doesnt get any real respect from anyone else in the community. i mean how am i supposed to feel when i busted my ass for those years and at the end have nothing to show for it? you know i dont claim to be the master of all and the genious expert. i know what i know, and so far no-one has been able to answer the questions i have posed directly on this thread. and it angers me JP. YES it ANGERS me.
KC and all his BS about his chat with sin the and then not even having the common courtesy to put forth what he was told to all of us here,in stead baiting us so that he can feel and baqualin and others can feel so justified in what they are learning and its source(which they never questioned ANYWAY, right?) They come here as well as YOU JP and defend what it is that you do.
SO to state that you had an intimate talk with the GM of your school and you asked the questions that most of us here wanted to ask and then say "well im not going to tell you what was said?" its an insult and Rude and childish(just like you all think about me). TWS

[kungfujunky]

it is not your business what others are told in confidence.

it is not your business what sd is and does since you QUIT.

since you are so obviously happy with your new style why not go practice it?

your claims about li baoushi or whatever his name is are just that claims.

you really need to let go man. its sad how twisted up this has made you.

[kwaichang]

Well TWS I am so sorry you are angry .:) I simply told you guys that I asked questions as I recall you declined my offer to ask GM The questions I believe you lacked confidence in my relationship within SD. No biggie really but I dont owe you or anyone else intimate details of what I asked or the answers. So get over it. I was trying to be considerate in posting my opinion of the questions and answers .
To sum it up I will say we talked about the history , the Lineage and the Masters as well as other things.
I am open minded otherwise I would not have asked questions risking ridicule and anger from GM The but I did and and I know now that you and your ego made a mistake , you let your feelings toward Master Joe sway you from your path. I almost did the same thing in regards of those on this forum, but I came to my senses.
I can tell you I too have researched and if you want to believe every harry guy is Li Bao Shu then go ahead. That doesnt make it true.
Admit it you screwed up and now youir ego is too big for you to swallow your pride and say you made a mistake. I like you WS and hope you know I mean you no harm or anger but like others have said . Get over it. KC:D

[MasterKiller]

your claims about li baoushi or whatever his name is are just that claims.

That last set of pictures from the website sort of sealed the deal on this factoid. TWS at least came up with outside evidence to back up his claim...unless SD posts something with Su Kong in a robe doing some kung fu work (getting your arm bitten by a bear doesn't count), I think he's got the upper hand on at least this point.

[wdl]

TWS: Are you bipolar?

I remember not too long ago you(atleast I think it was you) coming an apologizing for being a *******. Now, I know you said you weren't going to change your position and I respect that, but geez man. Get some meds.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

What if GM The' said that GM Ie told him about Su Kong and he never had any reason to question what his teacher said...where would we be? Same place we were before.

What if Gm The' said that he studied with many teachers at the school, but studied primarily with GM Ie? What would that mean to you? Nothing more than it does already.

What if GM The' said that all of his material came from differnt temple under the shaolin system and he belives that because his teachers told him that? What would you think?

Why would any of this make a difference to anyone that didn't want to believe it to be true. If you want to beleive it to be true, you would say "of course he's telling the truth the way it was told to him." If you wanted to disporove what SD claims you would say "he's lying or he was lied to and should have known better."

In the end we are in the same bitter place we were before. I don't blame KC for keeping his conversation priavte...it would accomplash nothing.

And TWS, I don't defend an art for its history or lineage or its pure roots...I defend it because I see good in it (even if you can no longer see it). I have serious doubts about the way the truth was revealed to you... after getting shamed and your feelings hurt you then became objective? You argued with everyone on KFO at the time that SD was legitimate but only after your feelings were dashed could you be objective? No, you're no more objective now then you were then--you just changed your agendas. The only way you can ever be objective is to let this anger go. Even with all of this disagreement, you and I remain civil and I hope that can continue. I wish you well.

[Judge Pen]

That last set of pictures from the website sort of sealed the deal on this factoid. TWS at least came up with outside evidence to back up his claim...unless SD posts something with Su Kong in a robe doing some kung fu work (getting your arm bitten by a bear doesn't count), I think he's got the upper hand on at least this point.

I'll go on record that the photos from that site and the photos on Su Kong look to be the same person to me too, but I'm no expert so my opinion is as useless as every one else's. I wish Dikkoter would have responded to my e-mail in a contructive way. I also wish the TWS had saved his e-mail as I would be curious to hear his opinions....

[Citong Shifu]

it is not your business what others are told in confidence.

it is not your business what sd is and does since you QUIT.

since you are so obviously happy with your new style why not go practice it?

your claims about li baoushi or whatever his name is are just that claims.

you really need to let go man. its sad how twisted up this has made you.


IMHO, I think alot of this recent debate on what was said between A & B stems from the posts in which questions were asked for, for the sole purpose of asking Sin The'... Now, as far as SD not being anyones bussiness unless you are a student of said art is somewhat controversial, meaning, SD is a commercial school and style... When any bussiness is commercial the consumer HAS the RIGHT to know or inquire about such bussiness, history, products, guarantees, etc... Now, with this said, I think this is where many on this thread is going with thier information request..... Rather right or wrong, it is the bussiness / product to prove such information about said bussiness / product... Again, the other side of this conversation is this, when a consumer feel they have not gotten enough info or feels they have been mislead, they simple find or buy a new product or another brand or in America, take to court, lol, as JP would know... Anywho, I thought I would break it down in this fashion due to it being easier to understand and less bias... Either way, there is always pro's & con's to any given subject/s. Lets focus on our products and the benefits we receive...

CS.

[BoulderDawg]

When any bussiness is commercial the consumer HAS the RIGHT to know or inquire about such bussiness, history, products, guarantees, etc...

You can enquire til you're blue in the face:D , a business only has the obligation to provide the product that it promises. How that product is produced, where it comes from and who made it are things that a private company can chose to keep private if it so desires. You have the right to decide if you want to buy the product or not.

[The Willow Sword]

Sometimes i say things out of anger, and sometimes i say things out of a deep calm.

All of what i say comes from a deep passion i have for doing the right thing and even in the anger, coming from the heart. I have never minced words nor danced around issues nor backed down from any challenge, insult ,point of view, Meeting, etc etc. i have always been honest, even if others have felt i am not. i have not BS'ed my trip here even though some may feel that i do. I certainly have not LIED about anything, even though some may feel that i have. DO i admit my faults? yes, every single day, all i can do is forgive myself and go on and ask forgiveness of those with whom i have offended.

Wdl? no i am not bipolar, i am human. are you a psychologist? can you make that judgement? i think not.

what i have researched and how i feel about that research may be totally incorrect, so far it hasnt been proven to me that it is incorrect. We believe what we believe, we go on what we are told and what we find out when we dig for answers to our questions.

Ultimately the answers lie within one person and that is GM Sin Kwang The'. If i am worthy of at least part of those answers to which i have questions about, then i will feel honored to get those answers and maybe it will dispell this anger and doubt and heartbreak that i feel.
The Issue i have with Joe is secondary to the issue i have now with the lineage and authenticity of SD. I guess if i didnt care so much i wouldnt be spending so much time trying to deal with it.

Until Next time, TWS

[Citong Shifu]

You can enquire til you're blue in the face:D , a business only has the obligation to provide the product that it promises. How that product is produced, where it comes from and who made it are things that a private company can chose to keep private if it so desires. You have the right to decide if you want to buy the product or not.

BD, lol, I think your business law is a little rusty :D . A company that produces a product has to supply the public with information concerning the product, what information isnt supplied has to be made available apon request to the consumer. It's the law, well at least, commercial products or SERVICES. Now, the product will dictate what information that needs to be supplied... Furthermore, a business is not obligated to provide any products in general, unless, as you said, they promise a particular product (like McDonalds - You wouldnt go to mcdonalds to get a burger king whopper, lol). Example, There is a TAE KWON DO school here in my town that was sued last year because their sign said KARATE. The plantif won his case because karate is not tae kwaon do and received his 6 months of tuition and legal fee's. I know the instructor, he told me personally that he uses the karate sign because its generic and represents martial arts as a whole :eek: , people know the name karate more than they do TKD, using the popularity of the word karate over TKD, etc... Furthermore, the student was told or informed that the school taught TKD upon signing up, the student explained that he was not sure if he wanted to do TKD because he was looking for a karate style, the instructor told him that TKD and karate are pretty much the same thing, so the student signed up :eek: ... Well, 6 months later the student didnt like the class and quit. He started training at a Okinawan karate school a few towns over. Guess what. He sued and argued that the TKD instructor mislead him, winning his case.... Hmmmmmm... Take it for what you will. Business is business when dealing with the public or commercial aspects... The point is this, the student had the right to not sign up with the TKD school, yes, but the TKD instructor persuaded him to take his program in repects to karate and TKD being being the same type of art.... Oh, by the way, the TKD instuctor no longer has a karate sign above his school, it now says TKD.. Remember, there's power in words, words can persuade, etc...

All I'm trying to say is this, if someone isnt happy with the product, history, claimes, or service find another product, period... As far as SD, SD doesnt effect my school, style, repuatation, etc. I cant see where its effecting anyone else's way of life either...

CS.

[Citong Shifu]

BD, lol, I think your business law is a little rusty :D . A company that produces a product has to supply the public with information concerning the product, what information isnt supplied has to be made available apon request to the consumer. It's the law, well at least, commercial products or SERVICES. Now, the product will dictate what information that needs to be supplied... Furthermore, a business is not obligated to provide any products in general, unless, as you said, they promise a particular product (like McDonalds - You wouldnt go to mcdonalds to get a burger king whopper, lol). Example, There is a TAE KWON DO school here in my town that was sued last year because their sign said KARATE. The plantif won his case because karate is not tae kwaon do and received his 6 months of tuition and legal fee's. I know the instructor, he told me personally that he uses the karate sign because its generic and represents martial arts as a whole :eek: , people know the name karate more than they do TKD, using the popularity of the word karate over TKD, etc... Furthermore, the student was told or informed that the school taught TKD upon signing up, the student explained that he was not sure if he wanted to do TKD because he was looking for a karate style, the instructor told him that TKD and karate are pretty much the same thing, so the student signed up :eek: ... Well, 6 months later the student didnt like the class and quit. He started training at a Okinawan karate school a few towns over. Guess what. He sued and argued that the TKD instructor mislead him, winning his case.... Hmmmmmm... Take it for what you will. Business is business when dealing with the public or commercial aspects... The point is this, the student had the right to not sign up with the TKD school, yes, but the TKD instructor persuaded him to take his program in repects to karate and TKD being being the same type of art.... Oh, by the way, the TKD instuctor no longer has a karate sign above his school, it now says TKD.. Remember, there's power in words, words can persuade, etc...

All I'm trying to say is this, if someone isnt happy with the product, history, claimes, or service find another product, period... As far as SD, SD doesnt effect my school, style, repuatation, etc. I cant see where its effecting anyone else's way of life either...

CS.

Just to let everyone know, I was insinuating anything. I was only pointing out that commercial business has the burden of supplying the consumer with information concerning their products / services. Regardless if the company in general feels its neccessary or not.. If a person doesnt feel that they had received the information they requetsed, they should choose another product or service...

CS

[BoulderDawg]

Just so I'll have basis for my knowledge of business law:

What law do you refer to?

and

What jurisdiction? State, Federal...What?

Also, what case was the Karate case?

************

If I offer you some sort of instruction (such as MA, Dance, Language...whatever) all I have to do is deliver. You can ask "What are your qualifications to teach French?" then I have the right to tell you "My qualifications are private. If you don't want my instruction then don't sign up."

Now, your description of the Karate case has nothing to do with this topic. The customer was told he would learn Karate but was taught something else. It's the same as if I was told I would receive instruction in dancing the Tango but was taught the Twist instead. Had I'd been on the bench I would have asked this idiot why it took him 6 months to figure out he wasn't being taught Karate.:D

With a product, if I sell you a bookcase I made in my shop then I have no obligation to tell you how it was made or who made it. I could just say "There's the bookcase...buy it or not!":p

[Citong Shifu]

Just so I'll have basis for my knowledge of business law:

What law do you refer to?

and

What jurisdiction? State, Federal...What?

Also, what case was the Karate case?

************

If I offer you some sort of instruction (such as MA, Dance, Language...whatever) all I have to do is deliver. You can ask "What are your qualifications to teach French?" then I have the right to tell you "My qualifications are private. If you don't want my instruction then don't sign up."

Now, your description of the Karate case has nothing to do with this topic. The customer was told he would learn Karate but was taught something else. It's the same as if I was told I would receive instruction in dancing the Tango but was taught the Twist instead. Had I'd been on the bench I would have asked this idiot why it took him 6 months to figure out he wasn't being taught Karate.:D

With a product, if I sell you a bookcase I made in my shop then I have no obligation to tell you how it was made or who made it. I could just say "There's the bookcase...buy it or not!":p


LOL, it really isnt a case of who made the bookcase, unless asked. If you dont kow, then you dont know... Thats what I've been saying all along. If you dont like theproduct for whatever reasons, dont buy it. period. as far as this having nothing to do with this thread, your wrong, it has alot to do with it... There's no debate here. Do things how you wish. As far as business law, I guess it has to do with the state you live in, but federal is pretty much universal... I really dont care either way. I've never been sued for any reason. I follow and adhere to the laws of states and the U.S.. Furthermore, I dont debate my art and lineage, etc.

There's alot of debate on this thread due to history, etc. My small posts on this matter was due to the response of a commercial business not having to supply product or service information to the consumer... I guess in your world, you dont have to answer to the consumer, but knowingly keeping info from the consumer has led to many legal disputes. If you want to have a commercial business, be prepared to have people ask questions, disagree, debate, doubt, request info, etc. This is all I was trying to say...

I myself as a school owner have no problems with such requests, nor do I find it insulting... Also, I know that it is my responsibility to provide information on the services my business offers, rather its asked for or not...... I guess thats why I dont have alot of the problems many schools have today... Anywho, this debate was over before it started...

CS

[Judge Pen]

Interesting fact pattern CS. There's also something in business law known a "puffing" where a boastful claim is obviously intended to boost the perception of a product but a reasonable person wouldn't belive the statement to be "fact" per se. Of course any misrepresentation case is very fact specific, but your "karate"/"TKD" case is of interest to me.

[Citong Shifu]

Interesting fact pattern CS. There's also something in business law known a "puffing" where a boastful claim is obviously intended to boost the perception of a product but a reasonable person wouldn't belive the statement to be "fact" per se. Of course any misrepresentation case is very fact specific, but your "karate"/"TKD" case is of interest to me.


JP, I dont have all the details to that particular case, just an overview that I had gotten from my TKD friend/instructor. Whatever it was, it greatly influenced his business tatics... I will see if I can get more detail from him when I speak with him again... I dont want to speculate without knowing exact details. My statements earlier was from a brief conversation that we had a while back....

I only brought this up because it happened. My friend wasnt trying to be mislead or misrepresent himself or school. He was just using a more popular way to introduce his art or school to the public in term they were familiar with... He's really a good guy with good intentions... Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, maybe he did misrepresent, I dont know.

Anywho, I think we all need to better educate the public concerning our arts, not contradict each other or arts. I really believe people will do what they want regardless of history, lineage, etc, if there really achieving benefits. We all have our backgrounds and many of them are different, we all cant be the same. With this said, be who you are, cause in the end, all you have is what you've become ;) .

You guys take care and fight the good fight.

CS

[Golden Tiger]

Anywho, I think we all need to better educate the public concerning our arts, not contradict each other or arts. I really believe people will do what they want regardless of history, lineage, etc, if there really achieving benefits. We all have our backgrounds and many of them are different, we all cant be the same. With this said, be who you are, cause in the end, all you have is what you've become ;) .

You guys take care and fight the good fight.

CS

Personally, I think we have done just about all we can to educate anyone and everyone about Shaolin-Do, both the good and the bad. We have tried to answer every question as best we can and as far as I am concerned, never knowing tried to deceive anyone. Its obvious that some don't like the answers we give them, but thats not our fault.

As far as being out there, there are schools in most towns that welcome anyone in, Master Sin has been published in many magazines, 2 books and had two TV series. So if anyone comes in and doesn't know what they are getting, its not because we have tried to hide it.

It has been said the insanity is repeating the same thing (question) and expecting a different result (answer). Makes you wonder doesn't it..:rolleyes:

[Citong Shifu]

Personally, I think we have done just about all we can to educate anyone and everyone about Shaolin-Do, both the good and the bad. We have tried to answer every question as best we can and as far as I am concerned, never knowing tried to deceive anyone. Its obvious that some don't like the answers we give them, but thats not our fault.

As far as being out there, there are schools in most towns that welcome anyone in, Master Sin has been published in many magazines, 2 books and had two TV series. So if anyone comes in and doesn't know what they are getting, its not because we have tried to hide it.

It has been said the insanity is repeating the same thing (question) and expecting a different result (answer). Makes you wonder doesn't it..:rolleyes:


GT, We cant please everyone all of the time. I feel that SD has stated their case and provided everyone with the best information they could or possible. Some choose to debate while others say ok... I think there comes a point where when this happens we try too hard to explain or give facts, which opens the door for even more debate... I look like it like this, SD has already stated thier position, time to move on... Anything else is debating what has already been debated, rather people got they answers they want or not. The fact is, there's nothing more to debate.

CS

[wdl]

Sometimes i say things out of anger, and sometimes i say things out of a deep calm.

Wdl? no i am not bipolar, i am human. are you a psychologist? can you make that judgement? i think not.



*sigh*, It was a metaphor and observation man not a judgement, refering to how you swing back and forth emotionally over the subject. As in, you act completely bipolar over it, like it's affecting your life and your ability operate, aka, you would then be bipolar. Telling you to "take some meds" meant(pardon the pun) "take a chill pill" and relax.

This thread proves that people take the internet and the entertainment derived from it entirely too seriously. It's like talk radio. People get all worked up over what Rush Limbaugh or Al Franken said depending on their political point of view, typically over looking the fact that it's entertainment and on any given day doesn't really affect THEM PERSONALLY!

If people spent as much time learning their repsective MA than worrying about this subject(or today I'll have to get over TWS' denial of his bipolar tendencies hahaha) we'd all have more productive discussion to share with each other.

-Will

[brucereiter]

interesting quote from the below linked site.

http://www.shaolinwolf.com/shaolinindex.htm

<< Fu Yu invited the best martial artists to come and share their knowledge while training at the Shaolin temple. Three times, for a period of three years each time, martial artists from many places came to the Shaolin temple to share their knowledge. The Shaolin monks recorded the forms and techniques, which they observed into a library which was kept at Shaolin. It is for this reason that the Shaolin Temple is often considered the birthplace of martial arts. However this is incorrect. The Shaolin Temple can be seen more as a modern day University that simply studied martial arts and then combined the useful techniques into a new system. This system is now known as Shaolin Kung Fu.Fu Yu's lineage continues unbroken to this >>

what do you all think of this?

[sunfist]

Long thread. Have we learnt the true meaning of christmas yet?

[Golden Tiger]

Long thread. Have we learnt the true meaning of christmas yet?

Tis better to receive than give 'cept where a$$ whoopins are involved:D

[MasterKiller]

Long thread. Have we learnt the true meaning of christmas yet?

Originally, Christmas was a drunken holiday on par with St. Patricks Day. In the late 1800s when elite NY socialites wanted to change it into something more civil, they set about a deliberate campaign in to change it's image by A) writing children's Christmas stories and promoting them at Macy's and other department stores and B) publishing magazine editorials pushing the version we know today.

Much like the concept of the 'living room,' which was a deliberate campaign waged by Good Housekeeping magazine to make people stop displaying dead bodies in the 'parlor' of their house because they saw it as tacky, your ideas of what Christmas really is were sold to your great grandparents in an effort to make rich white people more money.

Afterall, everyone knows Jesus was born in the Spring and the date was set on Dec. 25 so that all the non-Xtians celebrating the Winter Solstice could be more easily converted.

[sunfist]

Dont forget saturnalia, orgies ahoy!

However the question is, if jesus and master sin attended the same orgy -thus having a chance to compare- who would have the more sizeable equpiment?

[Baqualin]

Originally, Christmas was a drunken holiday on par with St. Patricks Day. In the late 1800s when elite NY socialites wanted to change it into something more civil, they set about a deliberate campaign in to change it's image by A) writing children's Christmas stories and promoting them at Macy's and other department stores and B) publishing magazine editorials pushing the version we know today.

Much like the concept of the 'living room,' which was a deliberate campaign waged by Good Housekeeping magazine to make people stop displaying dead bodies in the 'parlor' of their house because they saw it as tacky, your ideas of what Christmas really is were sold to your great grandparents in an effort to make rich white people more money.

Afterall, everyone knows Jesus was born in the Spring and the date was set on Dec. 25 so that all the non-Xtians celebrating the Winter Solstice could be more easily converted.

I now know why you have the name Master Killer.......your killing me!:D

[Baqualin]

Tis better to receive than give 'cept where a$$ whoopins are involved:D

Nice to see your still alive...you kinda disappeared when we started talking about a gathering.:eek:

[BoulderDawg]

One thing I don't understand here.

This particular thread has 40 times more responses than any thread that I see on this forum. Logically shouldn't just the volume here warrent the creation of a separate Shao-lin Do forum?

Or are the people who hate SD preventing that from happening?

[NastyHaggis]

Gene, would you please start a seperate thread for Shaolin-Do, as was mentioned by the previous poster?

This thread could have been divided into several different threads and I think would have made more sense in the long run.

[Judge Pen]

Dont forget saturnalia, orgies ahoy!

However the question is, if jesus and master sin attended the same orgy -thus having a chance to compare- who would have the more sizeable equpiment?

Man, that's wrong on so many levels.... :mad: At least MK is funny.

[Judge Pen]

I don't think a sperate Sd forum will happen here. At one time Master Garry had a seperate forum that really took off, but, as Gene will attest, once a forum gets large enough, it gets to be quite the chore moderating it and keeping it family friendly. That's not a big deal on a forum like this involving a widely circulated magazine on all things Kung Fu, but it can be a problem if your income is dependant on students coming in the door. My understanding is the forum came down because of fear of alienating business.

Heck, even MK posted in the old Mullins forum.

[godzillakungfu]

One thing I don't understand here.

This particular thread has 40 times more responses than any thread that I see on this forum. Logically shouldn't just the volume here warrent the creation of a separate Shao-lin Do forum?

Or are the people who hate SD preventing that from happening?No.

JP forgot to add that this a multiple merged thread.

If I recall there were possibly 3-4 different threads combined to form this one. Also, unfortunately they all turned into "Is Shaolin-Do for real."

So, it would be a waste of a subforum. Sorry guys no offense meant.

[Flaca]

Heck, even MK posted in the old Mullins forum.

I miss the Mullins forum. Lots of lively, good natured discussion with like minded folks. I was 'Muffins' over there, I tried to resurrect the same one here, but couldn't remember the password.

[tattooedmonk]

you know that he has his own group on my space called shaolin the mullins way......or something like that

[Judge Pen]

you know that he has his own group on my space called shaolin the mullins way......or something like that


It was started by one of his students, but it isnt' his group nor is it linked to on his web-page.

[Baqualin]

Hey JP,
6 days until the pumpkin bust:eek: ...I want a good cigar.:)
BQ

[Radhnoti]

I don't think much (if anything) was merged into this thread. People have just posted here as a courtesy to keep all the SD stuff to one thread.
I always wondered about EXACTLY why everyone non-Mullins was banished from that forum. Several folks from SD schools I had contact with thought it was an order from on high...responding to either the ex-SDer who now teaches Straight Blast gym stuff and posted there, or the general willingness to question SD history (which might be considered rude in retrospect on an SD forum).

JP - "At least MK is funny."

Did you mean to end that with "looking", "smelling" or "ish"? :p
Just kidding, MK cracks me up. He has the all time funniest line on this forum in my opinion.

[wdl]

I always wondered about EXACTLY why everyone non-Mullins was banished from that forum.

Many reasons. As JP mentioned the biggest reason was keeping content family safe, there were alot of small children on the forum, etc. It was a problem to keep up with it. The other reasons varied, but they all kept coming back to things being said that were out of line or disrespectful. These things were said by people in the Mullins camp, by other SDrs and people from outside SD that were our guests. This caused a great deal of disparity and discouragement. Everyone was to blame and Master Mullins had the plug pulled. If you've met Master Mullins you'd understand, he's a first class guy and if things start to slip to second class he doesn't waste time shoring up the edges, if the edges can't be shored he breaks out the weedeater.


On a personal note, I too miss that forum. There was alot of good discussion and fun had there and I appreicate everyone that was there Mullins/SD/None-SD etc. for alot of good times. This probably is another case of the fun of many being destroyed by the stupidity of the few.

JP: Does that cover it about right?

-Will

[ricardocameron]

There's no real proof of the history of SD prior to Sin The coming to America other than the word of the man himself (which means little to nothing to most here).


http://www.squatmagazine.com/article.php?articleId=11&issueId=1

let's define traditional Chinese martial arts...

"Who would win in a fight between a UFC fighter and a Shaolin monk?" Even as a disclosed Shaolin advocate, I have nonetheless conceded that an average Shaolin monk would lose. So the warm-up round goes to UFC. However, what if the Shaolin monk is not one of these average modern-wushu monks, but one of the few monks that know the traditional Shaolin arts? Now that, my friends, would be a totally different scenario altogether.

First, let's define traditional Chinese martial arts. This is not such an easy task. What are traditional martial arts? Where are we to draw the line to divide what is a traditional technique from what is a modern one? Are some techniques more traditional than others?

Some people define "traditional" as "old". They, hence, say the further back a particular technique dates back, the more traditional it is. This, to me, is questionable. Following that train of thought, the most traditional incarnation of martial arts is when our caveman ancestors ran out of their caves to throw sticks and rocks at one another. The various martial arts were created and then edited and refined by generations of people practising. So how is it possible to draw a line and say, "Before this is traditional and after this is modern"? A good illustration of this is tai chi: the exact origins of tai chi are not clear, but it is generally thought they date back well over 1000 years. However, many of the more common tai-chi styles are no more than two centuries old. Who can argue that these are not as valid?

Similarly, Shaolin practitioners are constantly embroiled in the what-is-traditional-what-is-modern debate. To me, and for the purpose of our Shaolin-versus-UFC scenario, traditional martial arts are those techniques that predate modern wushu—systems painstakingly developed by devotees over centuries, in which forms are inseparable from the techniques they train.

To confuse matters further, Shaolin people argue over what are genuine Shaolin martial arts and what are not. It is, of course, all a matter of opinion. It is impossible to define what "Shaolin" martial arts actually are. For example, one can say that martial arts that originate from the Shaolin Temple are called "Shaolin" martial arts. That seems simple enough. However, over time, people naturally came and went from the temple. Therefore, martial arts practised in the temple one year may not have been trained there a few years later. Also, people learnt techniques from the temple, left and created their own systems. People brought new techniques from other styles into the temple. Monks themselves created techniques that differed from their colleagues. People came, learned, changed, left, developed, edited, moved... This is why it is impossible to unequivocally define what "Shaolin" martial arts are.

Then why are so many martial-art systems all vying to be called the "Shaolin" martial arts? Why does it matter, after all, whether a system is "Shaolin" or not? It seems a bit pedantic to be arguing which system is the most "Shaolin". Does it even matter? Perhaps Hong Kong cinema has made Shaolin martial arts fashionable—and more lucrative.

[KungFu Student]

http://www.squatmagazine.com/article.php?articleId=11&issueId=1

Then why are so many martial-art systems all vying to be called the "Shaolin" martial arts? Why does it matter, after all, whether a system is "Shaolin" or not? It seems a bit pedantic to be arguing which system is the most "Shaolin". Does it even matter? Perhaps Hong Kong cinema has made Shaolin martial arts fashionable—and more lucrative.

IMHO cinema has done more damage to MA then anything else. Potential students go to a studio beliving that what they see in the movies is what it is really like, then when they find out that it is not and that it takes hard work and dedication, they walk. Don't get me wrong, I like a good MA movie, I thnk Tony Jaa is the bomb! :D

[Yao Sing]

My kuing fu brother and I were invited to play some vollyball with my son and his friends once and they were disappointed that we weren't doing jumping spinning kicks to hit the ball and such. They found out we were just regular guys that aren't very good at vollyball.

[Golden Tiger]

Nice to see your still alive...you kinda disappeared when we started talking about a gathering.:eek:


Gathering? What gathering? Why wasn't I informed of this gathering? I would have shown up if someone had told me but no one told me so I guess I missed it. :D Next time, just invite MK in my place. He has learned all my secrets and will represent me well.:cool:

[Baqualin]

Gathering? What gathering? Why wasn't I informed of this gathering? I would have shown up if someone had told me but no one told me so I guess I missed it. :D Next time, just invite MK in my place. He has learned all my secrets and will represent me well.:cool:

I see you still remember your Pakua;) ......what do you think JP.

[Judge Pen]

Gathering? What gathering? Why wasn't I informed of this gathering? I would have shown up if someone had told me but no one told me so I guess I missed it. :D Next time, just invite MK in my place. He has learned all my secrets and will represent me well.:cool:

It hasn't happened yet, and you're still invited. MK will be the guest of honor.

[ninthdrunk]

To those of y'all partying over the weekend for Halloween:


have a blast, keep safe, and most importantly:


WATCH OUT FOR ZOMBIES!!

[NastyHaggis]

No...MOST importantly is turn your clocks back!

;) :D :cool:

[ricardocameron]

Anyone heard of the SAS five second knockout?
Supposedly a very good technique....

[The Xia]

You mean the British "Special Air Service"?

[ricardocameron]

You mean the British "Special Air Service"?
Yes.

here's more:

he SAS five second knockout
(thing) by DMan (4.9 y) (print) ? 1 C! Thu May 25 2000 at 12:50:05

An unarmed self-defense technique advised by the SAS (Special Air Service). Although brutal, it is highly effective, and will take down almost any assailant. Personally, I'd rather be armed than unarmed if I'm caught in a situation like this. Screw gun control. In any case, here it is.

1. Since most people are right-handed, their first attack is likely to a right-handed punch. Block it with your left arm. If the attacker is left-handed, reverse the left-rights in this sequence of moves.

2. Continuing the blocking motion of your left arm, continue with a two-finger jab to the eyes. Although this is a very brutal move, it is extremely important to throw the attacker off balance and hence allow you to follow up with the rest of the sequence, and this does an excellent job. Anyways, better him than you.

3. The last move should have left the attacker wide open. Follow up with a right-handed palm strike to the chin. This should put the attacker on the ground and convince him to leave.

4. If the person is still unconvinced, step forward with your left leg, swing your body around, lean in and strike with your left elbow on the chin or face. Use your hips to maximize the force of the attack. This usually guarantees a knockout.

5. If somehow the person is still acting hostile, step in, grab his shoulders, and knee him in the groin as hard as you can. At this point, you can simply walk away.

This technique has been tried and tested. However, hesitation at any step would ruin the sequence and open you to attack. Admittedly, some of these moves are very violent, but it is self-defense, after all. Practice it and make it one fluid motion. It will discourage any attacker.

[Judge Pen]

Yes.

here's more:

he SAS five second knockout
(thing) by DMan (4.9 y) (print) ? 1 C! Thu May 25 2000 at 12:50:05

An unarmed self-defense technique advised by the SAS (Special Air Service). Although brutal, it is highly effective, and will take down almost any assailant. Personally, I'd rather be armed than unarmed if I'm caught in a situation like this. Screw gun control. In any case, here it is.

1. Since most people are right-handed, their first attack is likely to a right-handed punch. Block it with your left arm. If the attacker is left-handed, reverse the left-rights in this sequence of moves.

2. Continuing the blocking motion of your left arm, continue with a two-finger jab to the eyes. Although this is a very brutal move, it is extremely important to throw the attacker off balance and hence allow you to follow up with the rest of the sequence, and this does an excellent job. Anyways, better him than you.

3. The last move should have left the attacker wide open. Follow up with a right-handed palm strike to the chin. This should put the attacker on the ground and convince him to leave.

4. If the person is still unconvinced, step forward with your left leg, swing your body around, lean in and strike with your left elbow on the chin or face. Use your hips to maximize the force of the attack. This usually guarantees a knockout.

5. If somehow the person is still acting hostile, step in, grab his shoulders, and knee him in the groin as hard as you can. At this point, you can simply walk away.

This technique has been tried and tested. However, hesitation at any step would ruin the sequence and open you to attack. Admittedly, some of these moves are very violent, but it is self-defense, after all. Practice it and make it one fluid motion. It will discourage any attacker.

That works all the time in the UFC.

What, they expect the other person to not put up a fight?

[BentMonk]

This is very similar to some of the one step techniques that are taught at SD's blue belt level. We drill them faster, harder, and with more resistance as the student progresses. We also stress the difference between sparring and fighting.

[Judge Pen]

After the eye-jabs, you can kick them where-ever you want.

[BentMonk]

After the eye-jabs, you can kick them where-ever you want.

Very true. It's all about stunning them. If you've seen "Knock Around Guys" Vin Diesel uses a head butt very effectively to begin a serious beat down.

[Flying-Monkey]

You should let this thread die. The question of this thread cannot be answered to the satisfaction of both sides. Plus, you are talking about different topics. Just stat a new thread.

[ricardocameron]

This is very similar to some of the one step techniques that are taught at SD's blue belt level. We drill them faster, harder, and with more resistance as the student progresses. We also stress the difference between sparring and fighting.


Yeah, i like those, especially #6 and #8(simple), but hell if i'm trying #3 with that back- double-block-spin-hook action. Yikes! I LOVE #2 and 4 though, and 5 with the kick and chop like an expanded on Ippon #5 :)

I've seen our # 10 Tech. knife defenses elsewhere, even in Western MA , such as in Talhoffer's Fechtbuch (Fightbook). BTW, you'd be surprised at how advanced Western Rennaisance Martial Arts actually were!! Sword, staff, dagger, even wrestling and Grappling...Check out WWW.THEARMA.COM
Ton's of cool stuff there.
Love to study this stuff, too!! I need sooo many lifetimes.....:)

[The Xia]

Out of curiosity, why are you so interested in this SAS "Five Second Knockout"? You've been posting this question on threads across the board.

[Baqualin]

hey Jp Has The Pumpkin Burst Yet:d

[wdl]

I was wondering that myself.......


-Will

[kwaichang]

JP told me his wife and child are fine . I hope he doesnt mind me telling you guys. Hes probably pretty busy. KC

[wdl]

JP told me his wife and child are fine . I hope he doesnt mind me telling you guys. Hes probably pretty busy. KC

Good to hear! Will save congrats for JPs return.

-Will

[Baqualin]

JP told me his wife and child are fine . I hope he doesnt mind me telling you guys. Hes probably pretty busy. KC

AWESOMEThanks KC, Please let him know we ask about them. I guess your next...whens D Day:D
BQ

[kwaichang]

Thought last PM but not yet probably 11-28-2006 KC

[Judge Pen]

Thanks guys. Wife and baby are doing great. Autumn Star was born on October 30, 2006 and weighed 7lbs 9oz. There was a bit of a scare at delivery, but all is well now. She's home and getting adjusted to life outside the womb. I'm getting adjusted to the lack of sleep.

I'll post a picture later, but--and thank goodness--she looks nothing like me! :p

[Golden Tiger]

Congrats JP. Glad to hear that you are now a proud daddy. Looks like all your training will come in handy in about 16 years or so. And thank goodness, she takes after her mommy:D

Also, you might want to change your avatar sig to "Diaper Dan Man" :p

[Baqualin]

Congrats JP. Glad to hear that you are now a proud daddy. Looks like all your training will come in handy in about 16 years or so. And thank goodness, she takes after her mommy:D

Also, you might want to change your avatar sig to "Diaper Dan Man" :p

You never fail to bring a smile:)

JP...congrats again and glad to hear everything is OK. By the way you better get used to lack of sleep:eek: I guess for awhile you'll be an official key board MA;)
BQ

[ricardocameron]

Good For you, JP!!

[tattooedmonk]

....For your baby autumn star!! congratulations!!!

[MasterKiller]

Thanks guys. Wife and baby are doing great. Autumn Star was born on October 30, 2006 and weighed 7lbs 9oz. There was a bit of a scare at delivery, but all is well now. She's home and getting adjusted to life outside the womb. I'm getting adjusted to the lack of sleep.

I'll post a picture later, but--and thank goodness--she looks nothing like me! :p

Uh oh. Mine looks mommy but acts like me, which means she's a terror.

You will soon learn to master the art of resting her between your legs while you play video games. The trick is to squeeze your knees together to balance the bottle.

[NastyHaggis]

Congratulations on the new family member! Our first child is due on April 1st. I know, I know, but what's cool about that is April 1st several years ago was when I proposed to my wife. My "backdoor out" was if she said no I would say "April Fools!" But she said yes, so it's all good.

[BentMonk]

:D Congratulations my friend! Autum Star is a beautiful name.

[MasterKiller]

My "backdoor out" was if she said no I would say "April Fools!" But she said yes, so it's all good.

What if her "yes" would have been an "April Fools!"? :eek:

[NastyHaggis]

Yeah, I know, it would have been a major disaster! It wouldn't be the first foolish thing I've done for sure. But she said yes thankfully and now I have an engagement anniversary date that I'll never forget! (Take note all you guys out there...do WHATEVER it takes...like that...to remember an important date!)

[kristob]

haha, post #3851! w00t

[tattooedmonk]

is this thread finally dead???

[Citong Shifu]

is this thread finally dead???


It's about time. So much more enjoyable now :D . So, whats the next subject of conversation.

[tattooedmonk]

It's about time. So much more enjoyable now :D . So, whats the next subject of conversation. who can kick who's ass!!!J/K

[Bolt]

ME ! I been takin Tae Bo for over 18 months now. I on the most advanced tape, and I good ! I take all of you on ! Well, so long as it not like in class. In class I work in back of room. Behind all those wimmin in tights … and I kinda lose focus ……. But any place else , well I take you on and I put you down !

Maybe we fight for dough. I wanna open my own school. Ya know, Tae Bo Do School for Fightin and Self Defense .. and Health Emporium.

[tattooedmonk]

the witch is dead......

[Baqualin]

Back to being bored at work:eek:

[Golden Tiger]

Back to being bored at work:eek:

I'm bored too. Pick a topic and run with it, I'll give my ever-so-humble opinion on it.

[MasterKiller]

Who would win in a street fight between Sin The' and Chuck Norris?

[Baqualin]

Who would win in a street fight between Sin The' and Chuck Norris?

Try again....thats a no brainer:D
BQ

[MasterKiller]

Who would win in a street fight between Sin The's pectorals and Chuck Norris' beard?

[Golden Tiger]

Who would win in a street fight between Sin The's pectorals and Chuck Norris' beard?

Since M. Sin was taught to use the pec's to crawl and swim during snake training, and since CN's beard is only used as a flavor savor, I would have to go with the pecs on this one.

[MasterKiller]

What if Sin The's pecs had to fight Sin The's thighs?

[Golden Tiger]

What if Sin The's pecs had to fight Sin The's thighs?

Pec's still have it...

[MasterKiller]

One pec vs. two thighs and his left calf?

[sean_stonehart]

Since M. Sin was taught to use the pec's to crawl and swim during snake training, and since CN's beard is only used as a flavor savor, I would have to go with the pecs on this one.

Flavor saver? Bah... everybody knows the beard is secrectly another fist hidden in the golden locks of the beard...

[Judge Pen]

Since M. Sin was taught to use the pec's to crawl and swim during snake training, and since CN's beard is only used as a flavor savor, I would have to go with the pecs on this one.

Obviously you've never been on the business end of what we call a good "bearding". Let's call it Chuck's secret "steel wool" attack.

[Baqualin]

Obviously you've never been on the business end of what we call a good "bearding". Let's call it Chuck's secret "steel wool" attack.

I'm not touching that one with a ten foot pole...bet MK will:D

[Baqualin]

Who would win in a street fight between Sin The's pectorals and Chuck Norris' beard?

I would have to give Chuck the advantage here if you were to compare beards....M. Sin doesn't have much of a beard:)

[Golden Tiger]

Obviously you've never been on the business end of what we call a good "bearding".



Uhhh....well...no, can't say that I have. Does Mrs. JP know of this?


One pec vs. two thighs and his left calf?

Pec still has it. He trained to freaking crawl on them for goodness sakes!:D

[Judge Pen]

Uhhh....well...no, can't say that I have. Does Mrs. JP know of this?


Sure. My dad was a master of it. When we would wrestle he would pin me and rub his stubble against my face.... it's part of my ground defense now.

[tattooedmonk]

Sure. My dad was a master of it. When we would wrestle he would pin me and rub his stubble against my face.... it's part of my ground defense now.now this is funny . It is no wonder that you had to add this technique to your fighting style because from what I hear kung fu does not have ground fighting** rolls eyes**

Here are some new topics.... Is there ground fighting in Chinese Martial Arts?? And did the art of ju jitsu/judo come from China??:D

[kwaichang]

Sure it did all MA came from china by way of India prior to that Greek KC

[BlueTravesty]

And prior to that, the origins of MA hearken to that long ago time when Caveman Ugh saw Caveman Trog hitting on his fine Cave-chica Grugita. The system known as "BRaaahhh... GRAAAR!" was later refined by Cave-shamans who incorporated movements imitating those of the mighty Dinosaurs. This tradition surives in today's Martial Arts through all the growling and posturing we know and love.

[Baqualin]

HOPE EVERYONE HAD A WONDERFUL THANKSGIVING:D


JP...how was the little ones first Holiday.

KC How close are you to the pitter patter of little feet:eek:

BQ

[Judge Pen]

HOPE EVERYONE HAD A WONDERFUL THANKSGIVING:D


JP...how was the little ones first Holiday.

KC How close are you to the pitter patter of little feet:eek:

BQ

The little one had a great time. Mom and dad were a bit frazzled though.

I hadn't heard anything from KC...

[QuackenBush]

Interesting to see this thread evolve into it's own little community.

I discovered these forums a few days ago and spent a lot of time (couped up with a cold) reading the first 85 pages and some other pages here and there.

I've been studying TKD in Golden, CO for the past 2 years and am desperate for a change. Prior to stumbling into this forum, the CSC centers in Denver and Boulder were at the top of my list, but after reading much of this thread, they've slid to the bottom, and probably soon, off the list entirely.

Now before my post starts another outbreak, let me explain that, setting aside the controversy over lineage and all that, I'm simply not interested in a high volume, mass absorption of lots of forms - it's just not what I'm after. I had suspicions of this before finding this thread, and many posts here have pretty much confirmed it. Plus I didn't realize there were so many other options in Denver, but there's another thread here which has given me several great leads on schools I didn't even know existed.

I will say that sorting through all this discussion has really made me contemplate just what I'm looking for - now to find it.

[kwaichang]

Hey all, I have been giving JP some space he needs it i'm sure. I told him if he needed room to breath and wanted to w/o come on over. Anyway Tomorrow is the day we had a close call yesterday but hoped today would be the day after all it is Bruce Lees Birthday Thought of the name Leigh /aka Lee as a middle name in honor of him. So tomorrow am is the day KC:)

[Zen Archer]

Hello to all and a happy thanksgiving as well!:)

I first stumbled on this forum while doing research on my art, and was at first somewhat irritated. Upon reading further I became a little entertained & more than mildly amused. From there I beagn to reflect on the fact that certain individuals posting here had so much time on there hands to spend energy on negativity & what might they achieve if they used that time for real Shao-lin training. I then began to realize that some of the people who embodied Shao-lin the most on here through manners, words, & action in fact appeared to be SD students. In my life my 1st priority is Shao-lin training, not just the martial aspect, but also the application of buddhist and taoist philosophy to my life, the practice of meditation, and also the integrity, values & moral aspects. I asked myself could I justify spending alot of time online with this forum. In answer I realize that is indeed my duty to spend a little time here, as a current CSC-D student who works very hard to embody the original spirit & work ethic as practiced in the temples & who works to be kung fu in every aspect of every activity in every second of his life. So I will be posting some bits of very relevant Shao-lin & Kung Fu wisdom on a regular basis and also responding to some of the questionable statements regarding SD or Chinese Shao-lin Kung Fu as different people may call the same thing.

First of all to the TKD student in Golden. Don't sell CSC short just yet, and perhaps you might want to read this forum a little more in depth. I know there is a lot of crap to wade through on this forum, but there is also some very intelligent discourse as well, both from SD or CSC students & their antagonists. I read through many pages of crap & mudslinging before I got to anything intelligent or objective. As far as mass absorption of material goes that is not the focus at CSC-Denver or any other CSC or SD school. That the material is available is a fact, but you as the student set the pace and the depth with which you learn the material. The variety of material serves various purposes: one is that, as in the Shao-lin Temples in mainland China of the 19th century you are exposed to various styles and/or composite styles of varying technique so that you may assess your abilities & what styles or movements best suit your temperament or body type. In the temples of China your teachers generally made these assessments at the lower levels and then chose what styles you would specialize in. In the West we have much greater freedom, which is both a positive & negative (more on this later). With respect to the current facet, this freedom enables you to chose what you will focus on or spend the most time with. A second benefit is that as you move through the various material you gradually are introduced to more and more complex movements & strategies that build both your physical conditioning and your minds ability to grasp & apply these movements & strategies. There are other benefits as well, but I believe these to be the most important aspects or facets of the varied trainings in forms material.

Now, back to the point on training in Shao-lin in a western culture versus the east. First and foremost GM SKT's mission is to preserve Shao-lin for future generations and make it available to cultures all over the world without respect to race or gender. In order to ensure this some commercialization was neccessary. In China there would be sometimes thousands waiting to try and gain teaching at Shao-lin, so the monks were able to pick and choose a very small percentage of these who showed the most promise in strength of mind and compassion of spirit. Of 250 prospects only maybe 5 or 10 might be chosen. From these perhaps only 1/2 might make it through to the level where they were accepted as disciple. In our culture, since a business must be profitable, anyone who walks through the doors and pays their (minimal) fees as well as showing proper respect is accepted and may continue as long as they wish. For this reason perhaps only 1 in 100 or 1 in 500 students may show similar skill to monks of old at any level from white up to senior belts. Also some of the most promising students may work 10 or more hours a day and sacrifice free time or time with family to get a fraction of the training that the monks did, and therefore may take 20-30 years or more to approach that level of skill. ALSO, and I STRESS this point, most westerners are lazy even when it comes to those who work out and train in the martial arts. As we have the freedom to set the pace and depth with which we learn material as well as what we specalize in, we also choose the work ethic we apply to training. Although it is repeated many times in our classes as well as many other styles of Kung Fu (and this is perhaps the most important thing you will ever hear regarding martial arts training) that stance practice, especially horse stance, is the first and most important basic training to be undertaken, very few in any school I've ever visited put this into practice (including ours). This is the great caveat to training in the West. But it is YOUR choice.

One more thing with respect to varied trainings: At the highest levels of Shao-lin as with other combat strategies (as opposed to styles), those with the greatest ability in real combat situations are those that synthesize their own style of fighting from all that they've learned to create a style of no style (ala Bruce Lee), and who are able to change and adapt this syle in a split second based on their opponent(s). "Be like water". Also one who is a master of all & no style will beat a comparable master of a single style based on his/her unpredictibility & flexibility to adapt. This is your ultimate goal as a martial artist, to transcend all styles, be one with the self, and have no style, but that which suits your body, tepmerament, & situation/opponent at a given moment in time. This goal is facilitated by being exposed to a variety of technique.

Thanks to all of you who are objective and read this with an open mind, yours will always be the greatest capacity to learn.

[The Xia]

What is "CSC"?

[QuackenBush]

What is "CSC"?

Chinese Shao-Lin Center.

http://www.shao-lin.com/index.cfm

For some reason the Soards use CSC instead of SD.

Just curious, is there some sort of split between the Soards and the other Elder Masters under GM The' that operate under SD vs. CSC?

[Yao Sing]

It's interesting following this thread but one thing comes up continually with the non-SD peeps that hasn't really been addressed by the SD group. SD proponents like to relate to the Shaolin training of the past. The difference between now and then is that the multitude of styles was taught in the past by multiple teachers who specialized in those styles.

In contrast todays teaching of multiple styles comes form only one source. Hence the argument that one person cannot maintain the essence of multiple, sometime opposing styles.

Now, I've seen references where some SD teachers have gone on and specialized in one or two styles but still the source is one man. Unless some of them take their training outside of SD and gain the essence from other instructors of the styles of interest.

Can someone elaborate on how it is that the different styles have the detail needed for an in-depth training regimen?

[QuackenBush]

First of all to the TKD student in Golden. Don't sell CSC short just yet, and perhaps you might want to read this forum a little more in depth. I know there is a lot of crap to wade through on this forum, but there is also some very intelligent discourse as well, both from SD or CSC students & their antagonists. I read through many pages of crap & mudslinging before I got to anything intelligent or objective. As far as mass absorption of material goes that is not the focus at CSC-Denver or any other CSC or SD school.

I appreciate your concern but I read plenty enough in depth and waded through the crap just fine. I don't have an emotional attachment one way or the other and feel I can make an unbiased assessment of my own on this whole topic. I'm not interested (at least not today) in diving into the details of my assessment of SD/CSC, but I've read enough to realize CSC/SD isn't what I'm looking for - it's just not for me. I may still check the place out before making a decision particularly given the low cost, but it's looking less and less likely.



Also one who is a master of all & no style will beat a comparable master of a single style based on his/her unpredictibility & flexibility to adapt. This is your ultimate goal as a martial artist, to transcend all styles, be one with the self, and have no style, but that which suits your body, tepmerament, & situation/opponent at a given moment in time. This goal is facilitated by being exposed to a variety of technique.

This is not my goal. It hints at my goal, but in no way embodies what I am truly seeking. Frankly, I think it's a bit pompous to assume that we all have the same goal and that you can define it for us all.

[The Willow Sword]

And so the Lull ends. Back to our regularly scheduled program.:D

TWS

[Zen Archer]

On the question of Masters Soard and GM SKT, they are very close, there is no split between them. As far as the difference in name I have my opinion on that, but I will ask them personally.

If I have somehow offended or seem "pompous" due to my use of the possessive "your", my apologies. I assume that on a practical level most serious martial artists have as a goal, relative to their fighting skills, of being able to effectively defend themselves or their loved ones in any possible situation against any aggressor they may encounter. As well for most of us it is also a way to stay healthy & physically fit. My indication of an ultimate goal as a martial artist was of the highest level of that fighting ability. I don't presume, QuackenBush, to know what your goals are as an individual. I only generalized for martial artists wishing to advance to the highest levels of ability. Shao-lin is a way of living that applies to all aspects of your life not just the martial arts, so perhaps it would be helpful for me & others to specify whether referring to combat skills only or referring to the other aspects of Shao-lin Kung Fu as well when posting or responding.

Yao Sing, yours is a valid question. First of all, Shao-lin is a 1,500 + years old tradition, which had tremendous practical, social & cultural reasons to evolve as it did. We do not presume in SD that we are exactly as the monks of old, though on many occasions visiting or interacting with actual Shao-lin monks of today they have done various forms and styles exactly move for move as ours are taught.

Shao-lin as taught by SD was almost lost, and due to the vision of certain monks it was taught in its entirety to three succeding and very gifted individuals in an effort to preserve it for the future. SD as it exists in this country is less than 40 years old. It takes some time to rebuild from scratch an entire system of styles and temples. I believe that as generations pass we will begin to have many gifted senior masters with 30 & 40 years plus in the art. Many of these will have specialties, and when wishing to specialize in a given area, one will be able to seek out a certain master if economically feasible for that student, and train with a specific master specializing in a given style.

As far as claiming that GM could not be an expert in everything that he teaches, I will give you this. I'm sure there are areas in which he has more skill and detail than others.

Historically Shao-lin was always an exchange of information between various temples, martial artists, and even lay martial artists who were not Shao-lin themselves. It is a growing, living thing. If there is an area of Shao-lin which you wish to specialize in I see no conflict, if you find a gifted master specializing in that area, with leaving SD or your school & training with this particular Master for a time. In fact many of the most gifted Shao-lin who were actually creators of styles exchanged information and trained with many masters through their lifetime as well as spending months and years in observation of nature.

One other thing, it was recommended in the Shao-lin temples of old that you be open to learning from all sources just as it is in our schools today. It is suggested to learn as much as possible from all martial arts available to you. This has always been how Shao-lin evolves & grows. I find many effective training techniques descended from other Shao-lin lineages (and even other non Shao-lin styles) that are not shown in my school and am not afraid to incorporate them into my training.

On a personal note I first trained in Tae Kwon Do, then in Karate, and am a voracious absorber of technique and info regarding anything I deem valid to incorporate into my fighting style. I say it again, proper training in the basics is the single most important aspect of applying all martial arts, and that is the area most frequently neglected in every school existing in the West.

Much love to all. May you find enlightenment. :D

Time to train some more!

[MasterKiller]

You guys need to quit getting Shaolin history from movies and dime store novels....

[BM2]

Congrats Jp, I been off and on here and missed the birth of your child. They really do grow up too fast as you will find out.

[BM2]

I have ADD so these long posts don't hold my attention. Well, neither does this thread:o

[The Xia]

How long did you think this period of non-Shaolin Do talk would last? I was expecting someone to swoop in and get the wheels rolling again.

[Baqualin]

On the question of Masters Soard and GM SKT, they are very close, there is no split between them. As far as the difference in name I have my opinion on that, but I will ask them personally.

If I have somehow offended or seem "pompous" due to my use of the possessive "your", my apologies. I assume that on a practical level most serious martial artists have as a goal, relative to their fighting skills, of being able to effectively defend themselves or their loved ones in any possible situation against any aggressor they may encounter. As well for most of us it is also a way to stay healthy & physically fit. My indication of an ultimate goal as a martial artist was of the highest level of that fighting ability. I don't presume, QuackenBush, to know what your goals are as an individual. I only generalized for martial artists wishing to advance to the highest levels of ability. Shao-lin is a way of living that applies to all aspects of your life not just the martial arts, so perhaps it would be helpful for me & others to specify whether referring to combat skills only or referring to the other aspects of Shao-lin Kung Fu as well when posting or responding.

Yao Sing, yours is a valid question. First of all, Shao-lin is a 1,500 + years old tradition, which had tremendous practical, social & cultural reasons to evolve as it did. We do not presume in SD that we are exactly as the monks of old, though on many occasions visiting or interacting with actual Shao-lin monks of today they have done various forms and styles exactly move for move as ours are taught.

Shao-lin as taught by SD was almost lost, and due to the vision of certain monks it was taught in its entirety to three succeding and very gifted individuals in an effort to preserve it for the future. SD as it exists in this country is less than 40 years old. It takes some time to rebuild from scratch an entire system of styles and temples. I believe that as generations pass we will begin to have many gifted senior masters with 30 & 40 years plus in the art. Many of these will have specialties, and when wishing to specialize in a given area, one will be able to seek out a certain master if economically feasible for that student, and train with a specific master specializing in a given style.

As far as claiming that GM could not be an expert in everything that he teaches, I will give you this. I'm sure there are areas in which he has more skill and detail than others.

Historically Shao-lin was always an exchange of information between various temples, martial artists, and even lay martial artists who were not Shao-lin themselves. It is a growing, living thing. If there is an area of Shao-lin which you wish to specialize in I see no conflict, if you find a gifted master specializing in that area, with leaving SD or your school & training with this particular Master for a time. In fact many of the most gifted Shao-lin who were actually creators of styles exchanged information and trained with many masters through their lifetime as well as spending months and years in observation of nature.

One other thing, it was recommended in the Shao-lin temples of old that you be open to learning from all sources just as it is in our schools today. It is suggested to learn as much as possible from all martial arts available to you. This has always been how Shao-lin evolves & grows. I find many effective training techniques descended from other Shao-lin lineages (and even other non Shao-lin styles) that are not shown in my school and am not afraid to incorporate them into my training.

On a personal note I first trained in Tae Kwon Do, then in Karate, and am a voracious absorber of technique and info regarding anything I deem valid to incorporate into my fighting style. I say it again, proper training in the basics is the single most important aspect of applying all martial arts, and that is the area most frequently neglected in every school existing in the West.

Much love to all. May you find enlightenment. :D

Time to train some more!

Welcome to the machine:D
BQ

[Baqualin]

Hey all, I have been giving JP some space he needs it i'm sure. I told him if he needed room to breath and wanted to w/o come on over. Anyway Tomorrow is the day we had a close call yesterday but hoped today would be the day after all it is Bruce Lees Birthday Thought of the name Leigh /aka Lee as a middle name in honor of him. So tomorrow am is the day KC:)

We're all waiting
BQ

[Baqualin]

How long did you think this period of non-Shaolin Do talk would last? I was expecting someone to swoop in and get the wheels rolling again.

Hey Xia,
Glad to see your still around...hope you had a great holiday:)

[Baqualin]

You guys need to quit getting Shaolin history from movies and dime store novels....

You mean I'm not going to learn to fly like the old Shaolin monks did:confused:

[Baqualin]

Maybe we need to get Lorenzo Douche back on here to stir things up:D