Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[MasterKiller]

All I'm saying I hear this 1,500 years of blah blah from a lot of SD guys (and lots of other kung fu people as well, but mostly these days from SD folks), but Tang Hao claims that as late as 1560, Yú Dàyóu went to Shaolin because he heard of their great staff techniques, but was so disappointed in what he found that he had to teach the monks how to use a staff.

It's like you guys watched 36 Chambers of Shaolin and thought it was documentary. :-O

[Judge Pen]

All I'm saying I hear this 1,500 years of blah blah from a lot of SD guys (and lots of other kung fu people as well, but mostly these days from SD folks), but Tang Hao claims that as late as 1560, Yú Dàyóu went to Shaolin because he heard of their great staff techniques, but was so disappointed in what he found that he had to teach the monks how to use a staff.

It's like you guys watched 36 Chambers of Shaolin and thought it was documentary. :-O

So this "Tang Hao" is a reliable source? Heck, 20 years ago I went to Brazil to meet the Gracies because I heard they had amazing skills, but I was so dissapointed I had to teach them how to 'rassle. Or so I claim.

Anymore, I just care less about history and lineage (of all styles) because all that matters is does it get me in shape and can I effectivley use it to defend myself. Everything else is gravy.

[Baqualin]

All I'm saying I hear this 1,500 years of blah blah from a lot of SD guys (and lots of other kung fu people as well, but mostly these days from SD folks), but Tang Hao claims that as late as 1560, Yú Dàyóu went to Shaolin because he heard of their great staff techniques, but was so disappointed in what he found that he had to teach the monks how to use a staff.

It's like you guys watched 36 Chambers of Shaolin and thought it was documentary. :-O

Sorry MK, I was being silly and you were being serious.....I totally understand where your coming from, I personally don't dig to deep into the history of Shaolin as much as I research the internal styles....forms, principals, applications, breathing & meditation. The history is neat to know (everybody has their own take), but it will not make me a better or healther MA:)

[MasterKiller]

So this "Tang Hao" is a reliable source? Heck, 20 years ago I went to Brazil to meet the Gracies because I heard they had amazing skills, but I was so dissapointed I had to teach them how to 'rassle. Or so I claim.


Yeah, I would say Tang Hao is a reliable, credible source. The fact that you don't know who he is just underscores my initial observation.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, I would say Tang Hao is a reliable, credible source. The fact that you don't know who he is just underscores my initial observation.

Maybe it does, but I think you missed my point. History in general, and history regarding martial arts specifically, are inherently unreliable. I make no secret that I don't buy every SD story on history and lineage nor do I believe every story regarding any CMA lineage. It's all smoke and mirrors designed to further ones claim that their style is the best.

And, now that you mention it, Yú Dàyóu is the person reporting the "staff" issues at shaolin. How reliable is his word? Reporting something that someone claimed 500 ago years does not make any statement accurate.

[MasterKiller]

It's all smoke and mirrors designed to further ones claim that their style is the best.
Tang Hao was the first "myth buster" of martial history. He also debunked the Bodhidharma connection to martial arts well before you and I (or even that old fugger GT) were a twinkle of a twinkle in our Grandpappy's eyes. My point is that the 1,500 years of blah blah recited about 689 times in this thread is the smoke and mirrors verison.

[Baqualin]

Tang Hao was the first "myth buster" of martial history. He also debunked the Bodhidharma connection to martial arts well before you and I (or even that old fugger GT) were a twinkle of a twinkle in our Grandpappy's eyes. My point is that the 1,500 years of blah blah recited about 689 times in this thread is the smoke and mirrors verison.

Maybe the proper term is Martial Histonics:cool:

[Judge Pen]

Tang Hao was the first "myth buster" of martial history. He also debunked the Bodhidharma connection to martial arts well before you and I (or even that old fugger GT) were a twinkle of a twinkle in our Grandpappy's eyes. My point is that the 1,500 years of blah blah recited about 689 times in this thread is the smoke and mirrors verison.

I don't think that we are disagreeing. I just refuse to accept the accuracy of any martial art "historian".

[MasterKiller]

I don't think that we are disagreeing. I just refuse to accept the accuracy of any martial art "historian". You don't have to accept that the earth travels around the sun, or that birds came from dinosaurs, either. But that doesn't make it not true. ;)

[beiquan]

i'd just like to say that i dream of a day when you all find somewhere better to discuss your "art" and this post is no longer at the top of a forum on traditional Chinese Shaolin martial arts.

although i suppose this post isn't doing anything to bring that day closer.

crap.

[Baqualin]

You don't have to accept that the earth travels around the sun, or that birds came from dinosaurs, either. But that doesn't make it not true. ;)

Come on MK your slipping.....that doesn't make it true either.....only what you believe:)

[Baqualin]

i'd just like to say that i dream of a day when you all find somewhere better to discuss your "art" and this post is no longer at the top of a forum on traditional Chinese Shaolin martial arts.

although i suppose this post isn't doing anything to bring that day closer.

crap.

What, give up all this free exposure......besides wouldn't it be awfully boring around here without us. By the way you don't have to accept that were TCMA, but that doesn't make it not true.
BQ

PS: Surely you can find something more exciting to dream about;)

[The Xia]

Hey Xia,
Glad to see your still around...
Yeah, I'm still around. The way I see it, this thread is like a local bar in a rough area. There's a set of regulars, occasional visitors, and people who pay a few visits then never come back. Heated debate is common and sometimes this turns into fights. When a fight becomes a brawl someone or several people call the metaphorical cops (Gene and/or other mods). Despite all this, chit chat still has a place here. After all, it’s a local bar. I walked in and engaged in debate. I didn't see eye to eye with everyone here but I never started fights and most people I debated with didn't cross the line either. Lately, I stopped debating but I still come in for a metaphorical glass of beer every now and then.

hope you had a great holiday:)
Right back at you Baqualin.

[Zen Archer]

Sorry to leave everyone hanging; Tu, Wed, Thu, Sat, & Sun are my heavy training days. Gotta respond to MK though.

Thanks for the welcome BQ!:)

BM2 sorry to hear about your ADD, I'll try and make my posts shorter. Besides, it seems I'm wasting my breath anyway.

MK, you are a riot! I laugh my butt off when I hear some of what you write! There are some serious flaws in your reasoning.

First of all the roots of Shao-lin quite probably did begin 1,500+ years ago. Most historians agree on this, though, it was more like between 1,300-1,400 years ago that it came to be somewhat organized and to be known as Shaolin.

Second of all, nobody in our school or really any very knowledgeable & realistic history experts would credit Bodhidharma or Tamo with founding the martial arts aspect of Shaolin. Shaolin IS Chan or Zen Buddhism and related meditations as well as having alot of Taoist philosophy included. It is from his impact on the meditative aspects of Shaolin, Buddhism in Shaolin, and certain Chi Kungs that cause many Shaolin to pay Bodhidharma homage as a founder of Shaolin. It is not known, nor will it probably ever be known whether he taught them any fighting techniques. However, it stands to reason that since the monks were so weak & out of shape that he had to teach them exercises just so they could stay awake to meditate properly, training in Kung Fu was probably at least 50 or more years after his time.

What I find extremely humorous in your line of reasoning is this: JP and others are absolutely correct when they say that history is inherently flawed & biased. Much is completely unverifiable due to the repeated destruction of literature & records in China. The funny part is you can't believe something said by a living, breathing person from firsthand experience (GT), but you regard something written by someone nearly 500 years ago regarding something 1000 years before his time as gospel truth. :D

Lastly, I find more and more people who are respected masters with ties & verifiable lineage relative to Shaolin who confirm things that I learn from Masters Soard & GT regarding technique & history of Shaolin, thus no reason to doubt. I also keep what's worthwhile in what I hear and dicard the rest. BQ thanks for your comments, I agree. I think a lot of this argument over lineage and history is crap, though entertaining. I also am much more interested in the essence of training, and how to apply it to my regimen (as well as buddhist & taoist philosophy), than this debate.

JP, wish you the best with the little one!

BM2, hope this was an easier read...

[Zen Archer]

Oh yeah, almost forgot.

I'm working on a new style, though I don't have the go ahead from GMT yet.

I'm not sure he'll let a lowly 1st level Shaolin disciple create a new style, but this forum has inspired me.:D

It's called Tuxedo Tiger Style, named after my cat DJ.

So far techniques are called:
Tiger Shreds Hand
Jumping Sideways Tiger Attacks
Lying Tiger Disembowels Forearm
Attacking Tiger Hangs On Like Pit Bull

Good night to all and to all a good night!;)

[BM2]

BM2 sorry to hear about your ADD, I'll try and make my posts shorter. Besides, it seems I'm wasting my breath anyway.

Yeah it sucks having ADD and my oldest son has it too. And as far as you are wasting your breath, realise that they feel the same about you too. I feel that there is truth in some of what is being presented from most sides.

BM2, hope this was an easier read...[/QUOTE]

And I read at least 90% of it.

[Baqualin]

HEY KC.....Do we have a new member to the Shaolin-Do family yet??

Hopefully you got in a few hours of breathing with your lady of labor....your going to need it for the Meteor Fist in March:D

[MasterKiller]

First of all the roots of Shao-lin quite probably did begin 1,500+ years ago. Most historians agree on this, though, it was more like between 1,300-1,400 years ago that it came to be somewhat organized and to be known as Shaolin.
I'm referring to organized martial systems, not the monastary itself.


Second of all, nobody in our school or really any very knowledgeable & realistic history experts would credit Bodhidharma or Tamo with founding the martial arts aspect of Shaolin. Shaolin IS Chan or Zen Buddhism and related meditations as well as having alot of Taoist philosophy included. It is from his impact on the meditative aspects of Shaolin, Buddhism in Shaolin, and certain Chi Kungs that cause many Shaolin to pay Bodhidharma homage as a founder of Shaolin. It is not known, nor will it probably ever be known whether he taught them any fighting techniques. However, it stands to reason that since the monks were so weak & out of shape that he had to teach them exercises just so they could stay awake to meditate properly, training in Kung Fu was probably at least 50 or more years after his time.
That is neither here nor there. At any rate, it is highly probably that Bodhidharma never existed. If he did, he did not write the Yi Jin Jing. It was probably written no earlier than 1827.


What I find extremely humorous in your line of reasoning is this: JP and others are absolutely correct when they say that history is inherently flawed & biased. Much is completely unverifiable due to the repeated destruction of literature & records in China. The funny part is you can't believe something said by a living, breathing person from firsthand experience (GT), but you regard something written by someone nearly 500 years ago regarding something 1000 years before his time as gospel truth. :D Well, your GMT often says things that are completley inconsistent with reality, let alone Chinese martial history. Really, if he had a shred of credibility, researchers like Meir Shahar would be quoting him in their scholarly works.

Why isn't Secrets from the Temple considered a seminal historical acheivement in Chinese martial history? :confused:

I agree history is flawed, especially Chinese martial history, but historical researchers have much more credibility than some guy who learned kung fu and some wild bedtime stories from his grandpappy in Indonesia, wouldn't you agree?

Tang Hao's research was not 500 years ago, as you seem to suggest. Try early 1900's.


Lastly, I find more and more people who are respected masters with ties & verifiable lineage relative to Shaolin who confirm things that I learn from Masters Soard & GT regarding technique & history of Shaolin, thus no reason to doubt. Yeah, better to listen to a couple of people who work in the TV industry instead of Chinese history scholars.:rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

HEY KC.....Do we have a new member to the Shaolin-Do family yet??

Hopefully you got in a few hours of breathing with your lady of labor....your going to need it for the Meteor Fist in March:D

Actually, I heard from KC yesterday. He had a baby girl yesterday morning. 21 1/2 inches and 7lbs 6 oz. Everyone was doing well.

Now my daugther will have a sparring partner.

[Judge Pen]

At any rate, it is highly probably that Bodhidharma never existed. If he did, he did not write the Yi Jin Jing. It was probably written no earlier than 1827.

Sure. Like Lao Tzu, he was probably a created figure--an amalgamation of ideas and principles that are probably attirbutable to several anonomyous individuals, but for some reason, Chinese culture like to attribute great ideas to a single person and invent them if necessary.... kind of sounds familiar.

Well, your GMT often says things that are completley inconsistent with reality, let alone Chinese martial history. Really, if he had a shred of credibility, researchers like Meir Shahar would be quoting him in their scholarly works.

Why isn't Secrets from the Temple considered a seminal historical acheivement in Chinese martial history? :confused:

Because its a collection of stories handed down that are based on legend and supposition and some fact. Say what you want about the book, its best attribute is a concise and accurate summary of meditation techniques and principles

I agree history is flawed, especially Chinese martial history, but historical researchers have much more credibility than some guy who learned kung fu and some wild bedtime stories from his grandpappy in Indonesia, wouldn't you agree?

Sure, but the researcher's accuracy is limited by the source material. More often than not, that is based on the unverifiable oral history of many martial arts teachers. The researcher will then cross-reference based upon the avaialbe documentation to see if there is any third-party accounts to support the offered stories. If there are, then great, but there often won't be, especially in Chinese history.

Oh, are you conceding the GMST learned kung fu in Indonesia? :p

Tang Hao's research was not 500 years ago, as you seem to suggest. Try early 1900's.


Which was prior to the cultural revolution but still based upon ancient information that was often passed by word of mouth. How much of the documentation that he relied upon in his research is still available?

[MasterKiller]

Which was prior to the cultural revolution but still based upon ancient information that was often passed by word of mouth. How much of the documentation that he relied upon in his research is still available?

Look, I'm not going to spend 3 weeks arguing over the credibility of Tang Hao's research when it is widely accepted by real historians as accurate and unbiased. At least not on this thread. We can start a Tang Hao thread if you want, but then you guys really wouldn't have anything to say because it seems you'd never heard of him until I brought it up anyway.

I just opened a door for you. Go find out about Tang Hao's research. Or, keep sounding like you learned your history from David Carradine. As with all else, the choice is yours to make.

[Judge Pen]

Look, I'm not going to spend 3 weeks arguing over the credibility of Tang Hao's research when it is widely accepted by real historians as accurate and unbiased. At least not on this thread. We can start a Tang Hao thread if you want, but then you guys really wouldn't have anything to say because it seems you'd never heard of him until I brought it up anyway.

I just opened a door for you. Go find out about Tang Hao's research. Or, keep sounding like you learned your history from David Carradine. As with all else, the choice is yours to make.

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? I'm not arguing with you about his credibility anymore than I think most historians' accounts are flawed for a number of reasons. You're right, I don't know anything about him and his work is probably the most widely accepted accounts today. I was only pointing out my perception of historians in general. I'm not trying to make a federal case out of it.

[Judge Pen]

The way I see it, this thread is like a local bar in a rough area. There's a set of regulars, occasional visitors, and people who pay a few visits then never come back. Heated debate is common and sometimes this turns into fights. When a fight becomes a brawl someone or several people call the metaphorical cops (Gene and/or other mods). Despite all this, chit chat still has a place here. After all, it’s a local bar.

I think this analogy is appropriate. After I read this thread, I feel like having a drink of something strong. :D

[Baqualin]

Actually, I heard from KC yesterday. He had a baby girl yesterday morning. 21 1/2 inches and 7lbs 6 oz. Everyone was doing well.

Now my daugther will have a sparring partner.

MANY CONGRATS KC FROM THE LEXINGTON SCHOOL

I'll let master Ben Know:)

[kungfujunky]

congrats jp and kc

hey bq is the meet still on for march?

and do you have dates for the best time

[kwaichang]

Ok we are home everyone is well I taped the whole operation C-section anyway I will post it all here. NOT. All are well the baby is beautiful I keep asking who the father is but no answer yet. Her name is Madelyn Ruth. After my mom. KC
Thanks all.

[Judge Pen]

Ok we are home everyone is well I taped the whole operation C-section anyway I will post it all here. NOT. All are well the baby is beautiful I keep asking who the father is but no answer yet. Her name is Madelyn Ruth. After my mom. KC
Thanks all.

Pretty name. Lucas is a good looking kid too. I don't know how such pretty babies come from you, man. :p Congrats, thou. Let me know when you guys feel up for visitors--we have some stuff for you.

[Lokhopkuen]

What, give up all this free exposure......besides wouldn't it be awfully boring around here without us. By the way you don't have to accept that were TCMA, but that doesn't make it not true.
BQ

PS: Surely you can find something more exciting to dream about;)

Are you guys the same style as these guys?

http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28

If so it is not TCMA......

[godzillakungfu]

Yes.

We know it isn't technically TCMA by your definition. Old debate. Read the thread.

[Lokhopkuen]

Yes.

We know it isn't technically TCMA by your definition. Old debate. Read the thread.


I have been reading it.

As far as MY DEFINITION you are right it is not.

I am only chiming in because your thread "Is Shaolin-Do for real?" has dominated the top slot of a TRADITION CHINESE MARTIAL ART forum for weeks and it is related to HENAN SHAOLIN in no form other than it shares part of it's name.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnpaW5hXWDg

NOT TRADITIONAL CHINESE MARTIAL ART {You guys should find him and punish him..} BAD. Not TCMA. Not MARTIAL ART. No manifest energy, no connection, no substance, no historical connection in it's essence to TCMA. Wake up. Serious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6VnLPJI5qg

NOT TRADITIONAL CHINESE MARTIAL ART

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

NOT TRADITIONAL CHINESE MARTIAL ART {BUT PROBABLY THE BEST (easiest to watch) FORM I HAVE SEEN FROM YOUR STYLE..}

Just to be fair and I am not really any good but I do practice each day:
http://www.harmoniousfist.com/videos/kwandao.mov
It's an old vid of one of my casual personal cultivation sessions and a TCMA practice set.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMuUwCd7sfo
This is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdLr_Ks_Gc8
This is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ank1N98rkqc
This is ALL A BIT WUSHUY WAY DIFFERENT FROM SHAOLIN DO...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpwE_PZw5x0
THIS IS TRADITIONAL AND THE ESSENCE IS EASY TO SEE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8S_78v5O-o

THIS IS TRADITIONAL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drz-CMespEM
THIS IS TRADITIONAL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBXal1GAA4A
THIS IS SILLY BUT MORE ENTERTAINING THAN YOUR KWANDAO FORM
HA HA HA!:D

PEACE


PS No doubt that many of you are serious dedicated practitioners and formidable fighters I salute you as brothers in the martial art. However just because somewhere in your history someone snatched the SHAOLIN moniker and tacked on a Japanese/ Korean suffix does not make it Traditional Chinese Martial Art. Most traditional Chinese Masters have something described as less than affection for the Japanese.

Lets not fight or Fork it, lets fight over it as that is what internet forumishnessnish is all about.

Come on, make me a believer!

But IF NOT!!!

Please stop 'cause shaolin-do at least from my perspective as a 30 plus year {non elitist fun and friendly} TCMA Practitioner,

is not repeat i[I]s not TCMA [/I

D*A*M*N* IF I SAY IT BOLD ENOUGH< ENOUGH TIMES THE FORCE OF MY WILL MAKES IT SO!! HA HA AH!! (THAT IS A JOKE, HUMOR)

]Just because a lizard claims ancestry to a Brontosaurus dose not make it a dinosaur.

The END:cool::rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[godzillakungfu]

*Yawn*

Obviously, you don't know where I stand otherwise, you wouldn't have posted this J/k rant.

If you really read the entire thread you'd know, as I do, you are rehashing old definitions.

This isn't my thread it was a troll job by the OP. You know, one post never reappear.

I say "your definition" becuase, if you really read the thread it is one of many arguments by the Sders.

[godzillakungfu]

Oh, it has dominated for years in one thread or another.

[Lokhopkuen]

*Yawn*

Obviously, you don't know where I stand otherwise, you wouldn't have posted this J/k rant.

If you really read the entire thread you'd know, as I do, you are rehashing old definitions.

This isn't my thread it was a troll job by the OP. You know, one post never reappear.

I say "your definition" becuase, if you really read the thread it is one of many arguments by the Sders.


*Yawn* yourself.

Far from a rant little person with big monster name. A well thought, well constructed logical thrust to the heart of this nonsense. You'd do well to construct yourself a set of manners before you take that attitude with someone who approached this whole thing in a respectful manner in the first place. I did not jump in calling Bullhockey on this clan's style I simply contend it is not TCMA. As a teacher I offer a critique outlining some crucial elements that might have been overlooked in their claims toward TCMA.

OKAY A RANT.

Rehash?

What like your post was some earth shaking revelation of profound nature? Please. Disregard yourself. I see from your profile you present an anonymous "14 years of diddle in some un-named style of martial art whateverness type persona with no links back to a REAL WORLD martial artist so you feel free to dispense with protocol.

Read my profile and notice my screen name leads you to a real person with solid connections and friendships in the traditional martial art community.

Read my post, it's content and stick to the subject matter at hand instead of attempting to distract me with some personality based B U L L S H I T. I added something new, a fresh perspective. I sited examples. Like many people rather than pay attention to what was said you were too busy thinking about what you wanted to say and missed my point. Though I quoted you I was aiming my post to SD practitioners at large not you personally.

I waded through 90 odd pages of very little real martial content to play battling type writer with you.

GO PRACTICE YOUR BASICS.

[godzillakungfu]

Actually no you added nothing new.

The Xia just recently did the same thing a few weeks ago. So, did another poster.

I know the current thing, thanks to the CTS current thread is to say "look at my links I'm a real person."

Congrats on your connections to the TCMA community.

I say your definition again because TCMA has been hotly debated here. Sders are going to disagree with YOUR DEFINITION.

I said if you really read my posts or this thread you would know exactly how I feel about TCMA and SD.

[tattooedmonk]

I have been reading it.

As far as MY DEFINITION you are right it is not.

I am only chiming in because your thread "Is Shaolin-Do for real?" has dominated the top slot of a TRADITION CHINESE MARTIAL ART forum for weeks and it is related to HENAN SHAOLIN in no form other than it shares part of it's name.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnpaW5hXWDg

NOT TRADITIONAL CHINESE MARTIAL ART {You guys should find him and punish him..} BAD. Not TCMA. Not MARTIAL ART. No manifest energy, no connection, no substance, no historical connection in it's essence to TCMA. Wake up. Serious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6VnLPJI5qg

NOT TRADITIONAL CHINESE MARTIAL ART

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

NOT TRADITIONAL CHINESE MARTIAL ART {BUT PROBABLY THE BEST (easiest to watch) FORM I HAVE SEEN FROM YOUR STYLE..}

Just to be fair and I am not really any good but I do practice each day:
http://www.harmoniousfist.com/videos/kwandao.mov
It's an old vid of one of my casual personal cultivation sessions and a TCMA practice set.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMuUwCd7sfo
This is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdLr_Ks_Gc8
This is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ank1N98rkqc
This is ALL A BIT WUSHUY WAY DIFFERENT FROM SHAOLIN DO...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpwE_PZw5x0
THIS IS TRADITIONAL AND THE ESSENCE IS EASY TO SEE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8S_78v5O-o

THIS IS TRADITIONAL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drz-CMespEM
THIS IS TRADITIONAL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBXal1GAA4A
THIS IS SILLY BUT MORE ENTERTAINING THAN YOUR KWANDAO FORM
HA HA HA!:D

PEACE


PS No doubt that many of you are serious dedicated practitioners and formidable fighters I salute you as brothers in the martial art. However just because somewhere in your history someone snatched the SHAOLIN moniker and tacked on a Japanese/ Korean suffix does not make it Traditional Chinese Martial Art. Most traditional Chinese Masters have something described as less than affection for the Japanese.

Lets not fight or Fork it, lets fight over it as that is what internet forumishnessnish is all about.

Come on, make me a believer!

But IF NOT!!!

Please stop 'cause shaolin-do at least from my perspective as a 30 plus year {non elitist fun and friendly} TCMA Practitioner,

is not repeat i[I]s not TCMA [/I

D*A*M*N* IF I SAY IT BOLD ENOUGH< ENOUGH TIMES THE FORCE OF MY WILL MAKES IT SO!! HA HA AH!! (THAT IS A JOKE, HUMOR)

]Just because a lizard claims ancestry to a Brontosaurus dose not make it a dinosaur.

The END:cool::rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .......what is your definition of traditional??

Please use words, not videos, to define this for us please.

It may not follow the mainstream traditions that are mostly associated with CMA but it does have it's own traditions.

I think one thing that will help here is if non SDers would clarify as to what is not traditional about it.

For example...... if you think that the forms are not performed in a traditional manner then I would say I agree.

They have lost the Chinese flair.

If you said that the unforms are not traditional I would say I agree to a certain degree.

The Japanese Gi if it was orange would look exactly like the garb that is worn by the monks.

This lends a certain amount of credability to Shaolin going to Japan and being the precursor to karate , kempo , ju jitsu, etc.

If you said that the forms are not TCMA I would say that I disagree.

If you were in the art you would see that the forms are absolutely Chinese in origin and seeing as many of the forms in SD are found in all the other forms of CMA out there I would say that this is very hard point to ignore.

Do you think that the word classical would fit better in defining the distinction between SD and other CMA??

Keep in mind that even the classical, traditional ways of doing CMA and all it's outward appearences have changed over the years and to say that one way is right or the real way to represent the CMA is just lame.

Everything in life goes through changes, adapts, or withers away and dies. For TCMA ( more specifically Shaolin)to florish it needs to adapt and be modified to be able to carry on into the next generations.

Sders are pioneers in this area. Ie chang Ming and GMT are geniuses for seeing this.

For all these wantabe monks and shaoliners who think that wearing a orange monks uniform, becoming buddhist ,going through all these rituals and ceremonies. or whatever else is Shaolin....... you got another thing coiming.


And by the way..... those videos are of beginners..... and I must admit they were awful.I agree with your accessment of the short comings of those performances.

[Judge Pen]

NOT TRADITIONAL CHINESE MARTIAL ART {BUT PROBABLY THE BEST (easiest to watch) FORM I HAVE SEEN FROM YOUR STYLE..}


Thank-you. :rolleyes: This was me. I noticed you didn't post to any of my fight clips.

[Judge Pen]

And by the way..... those videos are of beginners..... and I must admit they were awful.I agree with your accessment of the short comings of those performances.

No all were begininers. The first set was. I have many shortfalls in my video too. I'm not sure the second video was even SD (even though it said it was). If so, I didn't recognize the form.

[Baqualin]

Are you guys the same style as these guys?

http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28

If so it is not TCMA......

Hey Lok,
Thanks again for the picture you posted for us from Chen village. I'm framing it for the Lex. school.

I understand that the videos you've seen so far of a few SDers & I stress a few are not impressive at all to you (excluding JP's). It makes ME go what the fuk sometimes. Of the videos you posted (can't see yours till I get home) did nothing to convince me SD isn't traditional. I'm a 100&#37; internal now and the Tai Chi video....saw nothing to make me go wow....Dim Mak (not good for video,looks silly to most people), why does he claim to be the exclusive teacher....pressure point striking w/ chi is a large part of SD. I know....show you something good....I'm working on that and will post some stuff soon for you all to pick at. Also if you want to meet a really good SD teacher in your area, let me know he's the real deal & a super guy....I'll send you his email & phone #....not to convert you just so you can see for yourself and share knowledge....he's a certified Acupuncturist & Chinese Herbal Medicine specialist.
BQ

[Baqualin]

.......what is your definition of traditional??

Please use words, not videos, to define this for us please.

It may not follow the mainstream traditions that are mostly associated with CMA but it does have it's own traditions.

I think one thing that will help here is if non SDers would clarify as to what is not traditional about it.

For example...... if you think that the forms are not performed in a traditional manner then I would say I agree.

They have lost the Chinese flair.

If you said that the unforms are not traditional I would say I agree to a certain degree.

The Japanese Gi if it was orange would look exactly like the garb that is worn by the monks.

This lends a certain amount of credability to Shaolin going to Japan and being the precursor to karate , kempo , ju jitsu, etc.

If you said that the forms are not TCMA I would say that I disagree.

If you were in the art you would see that the forms are absolutely Chinese in origin and seeing as many of the forms in SD are found in all the other forms of CMA out there I would say that this is very hard point to ignore.

Do you think that the word classical would fit better in defining the distinction between SD and other CMA??

Keep in mind that even the classical, traditional ways of doing CMA and all it's outward appearences have changed over the years and to say that one way is right or the real way to represent the CMA is just lame.

Everything in life goes through changes, adapts, or withers away and dies. For TCMA ( more specifically Shaolin)to florish it needs to adapt and be modified to be able to carry on into the next generations.

Sders are pioneers in this area. Ie chang Ming and GMT are geniuses for seeing this.

For all these wantabe monks and shaoliners who think that wearing a orange monks uniform, becoming buddhist ,going through all these rituals and ceremonies. or whatever else is Shaolin....... you got another thing coiming.


And by the way..... those videos are of beginners..... and I must admit they were awful.I agree with your accessment of the short comings of those performances.

Hey TTM nice job...are you starting to mellow;)

[Baqualin]

congrats jp and kc

hey bq is the meet still on for march?

and do you have dates for the best time

JP & KC just got visited by the stork:eek:....lets give them time to recover....hopfully sometime in march:cool:

[Baqualin]

Watched your video at home.....good to see your humble....I actually liked it better than the others as far as showing forms. As far as kick a$$ examples of traditional forms everyone should check out the TSPK thread....thats real TCM. Before you say that's not SD, this is true, but understand the point I'm making is that most of the serious SD practioners know what real Kung Fu is and our forms, when done properly, are very traditional Shaolin. Of course this is only my opinion.

[tattooedmonk]

Hey TTM nice job...are you starting to mellow;)...just caught me on a good day!;) I agree about the tspk thread forms. I am in the middle of tapeing myself doing some of our forms to download. I might throw the eagle claw set and the monkey set in there. I am tired of all this crap we have been getting. I am still waiting for some of these goof balls to post some of their forms with THEM performing them, for us to compare, but it seems they can only post videos of others....probably because they do not want us to see that they are just as bad as some of the dopes that have posted our forms...jp excluded of course.:D

[Lokhopkuen]

Goodness the internet forum is the perfect mirror. Please my SD friends forgive me because I just reread my posts from yesterday and sorry I really came off like some self righteous jack a s s and that really was not my intention. I was attempting to paint a contrast between SD examples that I could find and oppose them to various forms I hastily found. I wanted to use these to illustrate essences that compare to the ones I was taught. Ones that have worked for me in real life situations.

Good intention, poor execution.

It came out like I am some how threatened and further like I was defending the fact that I was not..... WHAT??

In short I am not putting down Shaolin Do. I really respect the fellowship of an organization with so many dedicated followers. It is quite obvious the style has something to offer and technique that works or people would not practice it! The fact that there is so little video available on the net of the advanced practitioners says many things, the least of which it is valued and protected from outsiders. My teacher has kicked my butt a few times and hammered me about being too open to people that have not proven themselves to be worthy and to be of good character and sound mind. He does not like me posting anything on the Net video or other wise. Sadly I am my own person...
Earlier in my personal teaching experience I attributed this to the Traditional (Confucian) Chinese culture's conservative attitude toward, well EVERYTHING! Now here I realize in front all who care to laugh at me (yes I am slow sometimes), it is kept secret and taught discreetly not because of being stingy or conservative but for the simple reason it is valuable and attained only through hard work and deep introspection.
If something is valuable you don't give it away, you protect it....

My learning martial art has not been easy. I had to break through cross cultural barriers, and overcome countless personal issues before I began to grasp even the most remote idea of the potential visualization of the tiniest fraction of the bigger picture.

Anyway I never made a comment about the uniforms, gi or otherwise. You could be wearing a shinny hot pink clown suit but the physicality of the practice is what it is.


Thank-you. :rolleyes: This was me. I noticed you didn't post to any of my fight clips.

I knew it was you JP, you rock. No I did not post the fights because although you were centered, aggressive and dominant I did not see anything outstanding in your movements that seemed to be a hallmark of Shaolin Do. You could have been any good Karate guy at ANYWEEKENDKARATETOURNAMENT USA, in any case you still would have gotten a "Yea! Nice!!" from me. I have an associate down in San Diego who is a dedicated SD guy and I see some of the same short comings I mentioned in my previous post. I am not condemning the whole style based on observing only a few representative examples but i remain reserved. I'd like to see some good vids of an advanced practitioner who understands how to physically manifest a strong martial essence. Shoot I have been training in our system for a long time and I still feel I have never once in any public performance demonstrated the higher essences and manifestation potentially available. I will rain or shine tomorrow and the next to infinity get my lazy arse up and practice.


Actually no you added nothing new.

The Xia just recently did the same thing a few weeks ago. So, did another poster.

I know the current thing, thanks to the CTS current thread is to say "look at my links I'm a real person."

Congrats on your connections to the TCMA community.
<EDITED>>.

Godzillakungfu I appreciate your comments and you are entitled to your opinion. No need to look at my links to see that I am a real person. People know me, some of those even like me. It seems that yet YOU remain anonymous. What I was really saying was if you were in my presence, looking in my eye, feeling my energy you would not deal with me so casually or speak in such a flip a s s e d manner. With no threat implied you would be polite and gentle as would I. Instead since our interaction is through a cold computer screen you forget you are speaking to a martial art teacher, the head of a particular association with more than a few followers and everything that does not imply. My students read and contribute to this forum.

plus

Like any good pigeon I like to puff up my breast feathers and coo a little louder than the rest of the birds. Don't steal my thunder man, 'cmon!!! Ha ha!

Peace Kung fu peoples.:p :p :p

[godzillakungfu]

Godzillakungfu I appreciate your comments and you are entitled to your opinion. No need to look at my links to see that I am a real person. People know me, some of those even like me. It seems that yet YOU remain anonymous. What I was really saying was if you were in my presence, looking in my eye, feeling my energy you would not deal with me so casually or speak in such a flip a s s e d manner. With no threat implied you would be polite and gentle as would I. Instead since our interaction is through a cold computer screen you forget you are speaking to a martial art teacher, the head of a particular association with more than a few followers and everything that does not imply. My students read and contribute to this forum.

plus

Like any good pigeon I like to puff up my breast feathers and coo a little louder than the rest of the birds. Don't steal my thunder man, 'cmon!!! Ha ha!

Peace Kung fu peoples.:p :p :p

Actually, If you approached me, with the manner as your first post, I would talk to you just as flip. That is me. I'm known for being abbrasive. I could careless about your rank or your accolades once you get on your high horse.

Internet has nothing to do with my posting. Like I said anonymous is being thrown around as an excuse. When someone doesn't treat you with the respect you want, not the respect you earned you flipped out.

I didn't disrespect you this is all I said

Yes.

We know it isn't technically TCMA by your definition. Old debate. Read the thread.
I made a simple comment and answered your question. You chose to try and ram your opinion down my throat.

Remember all I did was say "by your definition." As you can see there are many different definitions according to SDers. You chose to write a huge rant about what YOU FELT was real TCMA.

If I felt your energy if I knew your connections it wouldn't change anything. Respect is earned in my life not freely given.

[kwaichang]

It seems we all have an idea of what TCMA is and should look like. I was viewing a VID on one of the other posts of a thread I think it is the one prior to this one, anyway many of the moves of the TC Forms were and are in SD as I have seen them. So I will say again SD is TCMA and I base this on the "moves" I have seen on the other vids posted as "REAL" CMA.
In Japanese Karate there are 6 sources of power, expansion , contraction , rising, falling, vibration and rotation.
All JMA do not utilize or incorporate all of the listed sources of power but are still considered JMA. So I will say that while there are some methods of deriving power from the techniques of SD they may not look like what you have seen but it is still CMA. All flowers do not smell the same but they are all still flowers. KC

[godzillakungfu]

BTW congrats on all the newborns better you than me.

[Zen Archer]

Nice to see you guys are still at it!:D

Just sat on a test panel to grade brown belts testing for advancement today, and it puts a little perspective in things for me.

First of all I would like to address an issue regarding internet personnas and manners toward each other. In all fairness to everyone non-SD or SD this is scientific fact (check it out if you have doubts). It's been proven in studies that 50% of communication is body language, 40% tone of voice, and only 10% based on the actual words we say. Therefore, in these internet posts 90% of what anyone is saying is lost through the fact that it is an internet post. I was described as "pompous" based on a post I made and anyone who talks to me in person or knows me would know I'm anything but. Confident & self-assured yes, but also humble.

Yes, it is true that a lot of people have fake internet personnas, like on myspace and such. However, it is evident by the passion shown in many posts here that for the most part people here are real, or attempting to represent themselves as such.

As far as myself, one of my top goals as a SD, CSKF, or Shaolin (whichever you prefer) practitioner is the Taoist or Buddhist goal of destroying the ego (my own). I'm as real as it gets, and I try to be humble. I don't consider GMT or Ie Chang Ming gods, but I respect them.

I can be found at the Chinese Shao-lin center in Denver, CO any time we have classes, for anyone wanting to see how real I am. While many videos seen may not represent TCMA as it were, that doesn't mean people are not working toward that goal. The actual spirit, flair, technique is taught, at least in our school. Yet I say again, in the West, most do not practice the basics. Many people struggle just to put enough time in just to remember the material, let alone practice it properly. A 1st, 2nd, 3rd year student in the West will look nothing like those in the Temples of old in 99% of cases.

Case in point the difference between 2 Shantung Whirling Palms forms. We discussed in class the difference between the two with Master David Soard recently. They are are both Shantung Whirling Palms System but one is descended from Northern fist, one is Southern fist in origin. One is supposed to be very smooth & fluid, while the other is choppy and powerful in spirit. If you watch most in our classes perform these you coudn't tell the difference in spirit and technique.

This is an oversimplification, but it illustrates my point. The instruction is given, but not many apply it. I think you would find this to be true in most TCMA schools.

All you Lexington SD'ers, you sound like great people. I am going to make a point of visiting the Lexington school soon, I would like to talk in person and practice with some of you.:D

As far as practicing TCMA, I would like to see some of you "TCMA" practitioners show video of traditional stance work, SD or non-SD. It may not be impressive to most, but it is as "traditional" as it gets! I haven't the ability to video myself, nor the desire to, but maybe I will do so one day just because it is so important to everyone else on here. I'm in Shaolin for one goal above all others that I mention, and that is for what I can give to other people.:)

[Baqualin]

[B]Zen Archer
Any student of GMS is welcome in the Lex. Gym anytime!!
We would love to work out and share ideas with you or anybody else who stops by. Let me know if you ever make it this way.
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

...if Shaolin Do is not real how is it that it has survived so long without any REAL TCMA masters coming along and debunking it and/or doing whatever they can to discredit it??

[godzillakungfu]

...if Shaolin Do is not real how is it that it has survived so long without any REAL TCMA masters coming along and debunking it and/or doing whatever they can to discredit it??

OMG here come the annecdotal stories.

Why......Why......must you punish us TTM.:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

.......Do you think that the word classical would fit better in defining the distinction between SD and other CMA??

Keep in mind that even the classical, traditional ways of doing CMA and all it's outward appearences have changed over the years and to say that one way is right or the real way to represent the CMA is just lame.

Everything in life goes through changes, adapts, or withers away and dies. For TCMA ( more specifically Shaolin)to florish it needs to adapt and be modified to be able to carry on into the next generations.

Hey guys, quick FYI...long-time reader, first time poster. Tattooedmonk...you remind me of Sagacious Lu, and this is definitely a compliment. You caught some flack awhile back for being a tad abrasive in your replies. I'd just like to say that moments like these (above quote) make bearing with your tantrums worthwhile.

And if you don't know who Sagacious Lu is, he's the Phony Monk from the classic Chinese novel The Water Margin. He accidentally killed a local bully in a fistfight and was forced to flee into a monastery for protection from the law. He shaved his head and agreed to live by the abbot's rules. Only, monastic life didn't agree with him. He got into fights, snuck out of the monastery, drank to excess, ate the occasional leg of dog meat or two, and came back completely soused, only to beat up the guardian monks at the gate. In the morning he'd **** behind the temple, and throw up in the meditation halls. The abbot would admonish him, and he'd apologize, promising not to do it again. But he kept on misbehaving. The monks complained that he was a drunkard and a nuisance, but the abbot (because he was obliged to since a good friend had referred Lu to him) replied that Sagacious Lu had great things in the future for him, and would attain far greater enlightenment than any of the other monks. Well, to make a long story short...he never did. He just kept causing trouble. Nevertheless, he's usually everyone's favorite character in the novel, mostly because for all the bad things he does, he beats the living crap out of the occasional troll and makes him run for cover. Anyways, just speaking up on your behalf and lettin' ya know there's room in Shaolin for bullies, too.

Can't change who we are. (I'm a bully too, only, I do it with jokes...)

Peace from ATL CSC.

[tattooedmonk]

Hey guys, quick FYI...long-time reader, first time poster. Tattooedmonk...you remind me of Sagacious Lu, and this is definitely a compliment. You caught some flack awhile back for being a tad abrasive in your replies. I'd just like to say that moments like these (above quote) make bearing with your tantrums worthwhile.

And if you don't know who Sagacious Lu is, he's the Phony Monk from the classic Chinese novel The Water Margin. He accidentally killed a local bully in a fistfight and was forced to flee into a monastery for protection from the law. He shaved his head and agreed to live by the abbot's rules. Only, monastic life didn't agree with him. He got into fights, snuck out of the monastery, drank to excess, ate the occasional leg of dog meat or two, and came back completely soused, only to beat up the guardian monks at the gate. In the morning he'd **** behind the temple, and throw up in the meditation halls. The abbot would admonish him, and he'd apologize, promising not to do it again. But he kept on misbehaving. The monks complained that he was a drunkard and a nuisance, but the abbot (because he was obliged to since a good friend had referred Lu to him) replied that Sagacious Lu had great things in the future for him, and would attain far greater enlightenment than any of the other monks. Well, to make a long story short...he never did. He just kept causing trouble. Nevertheless, he's usually everyone's favorite character in the novel, mostly because for all the bad things he does, he beats the living crap out of the occasional troll and makes him run for cover. Anyways, just speaking up on your behalf and lettin' ya know there's room in Shaolin for bullies, too.

Can't change who we are. (I'm a bully too, only, I do it with jokes...)

Peace from ATL CSC.I take the first part as a compliment .

I never thought of myself as a bully though.

It is hard to say as to whether Sagacious Lu Da achieved enlightenment or not...... I guess it is all a matter of perspective. Did you ever think that this is why he did the things that he did??

Anyway ......I always thought of myself as a warrior of truth and justice rather than a bully.

And quite frankly never gave a F_U_C_K about what others thought ...unless it was positive.

[tattooedmonk]

OMG here come the annecdotal stories.

Why......Why......must you punish us TTM.:) Well you know me...sort of...HAHAHAHAHAHA

[MasterKiller]

I nominate Shaolin Wookie for the best SD screen name.:D

[Baqualin]

I second that nomination:)
BQ

[Lokhopkuen]

Actually, If you approached me, with the manner as your first post, I would talk to you just as flip. That is me. I'm known for being abbrasive. I could careless about your rank or your accolades once you get on your high horse.

Internet has nothing to do with my posting. Like I said anonymous is being thrown around as an excuse. When someone doesn't treat you with the respect you want, not the respect you earned you flipped out.

I didn't disrespect you this is all I said

I made a simple comment and answered your question. You chose to try and ram your opinion down my throat.

Remember all I did was say "by your definition." As you can see there are many different definitions according to SDers. You chose to write a huge rant about what YOU FELT was real TCMA.

If I felt your energy if I knew your connections it wouldn't change anything. Respect is earned in my life not freely given.

I still do not like your tone here man and speaking all of this shizzle you remain ANONYMOUS.

You refer to my words as RANT, describing my stance in my posts as HIGH HORSE, say you'd speak to me "just as flip" in person {I really doubt it}, RAMMING WORDS DOWN YOUR THROAT? { ah I wish}, prefacing your responses to me with *yawn*, telling me I have posted nothing new of note?

All of this reeks of disrespect and I have yet to respond with a hardy forkyou.

I do not need to rely on connections nor did I ever suggest it as I would. i simply mention I am know and as kind of a black sheep really....

No doubt I get a little passionate about my opinions as I am about my practice.
Not once have I discounted anyone's words here, not once have I treated anyone contemptuously.

In the Old West men treated one another with deference/ respect as everyone carried a side arm. One careless word and a fellow might end with a bit of lead in the skull. Here we are all martial artists and I see a certain parallel. I assume everyone of you is a fighter and demands respect. I assume that if one of you gets chatty in a nasty way you would be prepared to back it up in a contest of skill? I am no bully nor would I ever actively engage someone below my own level of skill, but I was taught never to write a check with my mouth that my a s s could not cash.

Please keep the above in mind as you communicate in these online martial art forums. I have seen people talk major trash and then forget themselves and end up in real life in the same place with someone they had offended.

It was not pretty. Most here I realize are vicious typers and little more.



.......what is your definition of traditional??

Please use words, not videos, to define this for us please.

It may not follow the mainstream traditions that are mostly associated with CMA but it does have it's own traditions.

I do not dispute SD has it's own tradition and I have great respect.

My definition of Traditional Chinese Martial Art is a group of practitioners with trace-able, unbroken lines of connection back to warrior progenitors who were known for their Martial exploits with no major contemporary modifications. In these groups the content is well thought out with emphasis on the four skills of combat (Punching, Kicking, grappling and wrestling.) as well as the related weapons and weapons practice essences. Each of the traditional weapons teaches a unique series of hidden skills. In these systems the movements are based on the deep introspections of peoples who relied on these skills for survival.

In our line the great master was the head of a security service that specialized in protecting cargo caravans in bandit plagued areas.

In the old days men who practiced applied technique that work efficiently came home to tell the tale while those who did not STAYED ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

The problem nowadays is any strip mall black belt can hang a shingle and never have his ideas tested. As these ever modified principles remain untested they ever slide far and away from the tried and true.

In traditional schools the essence of the founding master's lessons is contained in the cultivation/ practice forms. The handing down of the visual, oral, and felt/ physically transmitted essences is rigidly stratified and passed on with as little mutative variations as possible. The main problem in Traditional Chinese martial art is the people who end up teaching to the widest audience are usually the least qualified to do so. Masters with true RARE skills do not seek notoriety whist enthusiastic neophytes run about spreading their mis-learned and misunderstood skill sets.

Now tell me that was a rant Mr. *YAWN*

Anyway here are a few vids of some of my martial silliness. I posted this stuff for fun for my family and students as a record of my body of practice. Included are a couple of fights before I learned how to fight (I am the tall skinny guy with bad posture), some application demos, maybe a form. I am neither proud or ashamed, I just do it everyday ha ha ha!

Peace

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1524835917

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1526974016

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1461520806

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1524877841

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=637902278

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=719454311

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1422602124

[Shaolin Wookie]

I nominate Shaolin Wookie for the best SD screen name.:D


I second that nomination

I am that nomination.


It was either this or Teen Wolf. Bigfoot was already taken.:D

(No disrespect to GGM SKTJ, though...you just gotta have a sense of humor about this stuff....)

[The Xia]

Your KFM persona is hilarious. I especially like the "Master of da Hydrospanner" title. :D

[godzillakungfu]

I still do not like your tone here man and speaking all of this shizzle you remain ANONYMOUS.

You refer to my words as RANT, describing my stance in my posts as HIGH HORSE, say you'd speak to me "just as flip" in person {I really doubt it}, RAMMING WORDS DOWN YOUR THROAT? { ah I wish}, prefacing your responses to me with *yawn*, telling me I have posted nothing new of note?

All of this reeks of disrespect and I have yet to respond with a hardy forkyou.

I do not need to rely on connections nor did I ever suggest it as I would. i simply mention I am know and as kind of a black sheep really....

No doubt I get a little passionate about my opinions as I am about my practice.
Not once have I discounted anyone's words here, not once have I treated anyone contemptuously.

In the Old West men treated one another with deference/ respect as everyone carried a side arm. One careless word and a fellow might end with a bit of lead in the skull. Here we are all martial artists and I see a certain parallel. I assume everyone of you is a fighter and demands respect. I assume that if one of you gets chatty in a nasty way you would be prepared to back it up in a contest of skill? I am no bully nor would I ever actively engage someone below my own level of skill, but I was taught never to write a check with my mouth that my a s s could not cash.

Please keep the above in mind as you communicate in these online martial art forums. I have seen people talk major trash and then forget themselves and end up in real life in the same place with someone they had offended.

It was not pretty. Most here I realize are vicious typers and little more.

Wow, that horse must be really tall.


Here one more time before I put you on ignore.
Your post

Originally Posted by Lokhopkuen View Post
Are you guys the same style as these guys?

http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28

If so it is not TCMA......

My quote:


Yes.

We know it isn't technically TCMA by your definition. Old debate. Read the thread.


Now using short and to the point sentences is quite okay for you. I use the same exact posting method and look here:
I have been reading it.

As far as MY DEFINITION you are right it is not.

I am only chiming in because your thread "Is Shaolin-Do for real?" has dominated the top slot of a TRADITION CHINESE MARTIAL ART forum for weeks and it is related to HENAN SHAOLIN in no form other than it shares part of it's name.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnpaW5hXWDg

NOT TRADITIONAL CHINESE MARTIAL ART {You guys should find him and punish him..} BAD. Not TCMA. Not MARTIAL ART. No manifest energy, no connection, no substance, no historical connection in it's essence to TCMA. Wake up. Serious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6VnLPJI5qg

NOT TRADITIONAL CHINESE MARTIAL ART

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

NOT TRADITIONAL CHINESE MARTIAL ART {BUT PROBABLY THE BEST (easiest to watch) FORM I HAVE SEEN FROM YOUR STYLE..}

Just to be fair and I am not really any good but I do practice each day:
http://www.harmoniousfist.com/videos/kwandao.mov
It's an old vid of one of my casual personal cultivation sessions and a TCMA practice set.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMuUwCd7sfo
This is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdLr_Ks_Gc8
This is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ank1N98rkqc
This is ALL A BIT WUSHUY WAY DIFFERENT FROM SHAOLIN DO...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpwE_PZw5x0
THIS IS TRADITIONAL AND THE ESSENCE IS EASY TO SEE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8S_78v5O-o

THIS IS TRADITIONAL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drz-CMespEM
THIS IS TRADITIONAL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBXal1GAA4A
THIS IS SILLY BUT MORE ENTERTAINING THAN YOUR KWANDAO FORM
HA HA HA!

PEACE


PS No doubt that many of you are serious dedicated practitioners and formidable fighters I salute you as brothers in the martial art. However just because somewhere in your history someone snatched the SHAOLIN moniker and tacked on a Japanese/ Korean suffix does not make it Traditional Chinese Martial Art. Most traditional Chinese Masters have something described as less than affection for the Japanese.

Lets not fight or Fork it, lets fight over it as that is what internet forumishnessnish is all about.

Come on, make me a believer!

But IF NOT!!!

Please stop 'cause shaolin-do at least from my perspective as a 30 plus year {non elitist fun and friendly} TCMA Practitioner,

is not repeat i[i]s not TCMA [/I

D*A*M*N* IF I SAY IT BOLD ENOUGH< ENOUGH TIMES THE FORCE OF MY WILL MAKES IT SO!! HA HA AH!! (THAT IS A JOKE, HUMOR)

]Just because a lizard claims ancestry to a Brontosaurus dose not make it a dinosaur.

The END

Now after all of this here is my
*Yawn*

Obviously, you don't know where I stand otherwise, you wouldn't have posted this J/k rant.

If you really read the entire thread you'd know, as I do, you are rehashing old definitions.

This isn't my thread it was a troll job by the OP. You know, one post never reappear.

I say "your definition" becuase, if you really read the thread it is one of many arguments by the Sders.

The yawn was in response to the "fork lets fight" smart alec comment. Yet, I do explain in a respectful manner my position.

Then you start ranting about how I should respect you, I'm anonymous, too much posting, and I wouldn't talk to you this way in person.

Get your facts straight.

[kwaichang]

To all today is David Carradines birthday 12-8 36. Though some may not like him , his character Kwai Chang Caine , I feel he and the show Kung fu did alot for the growth of Chinese Martial arts. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Man, I've been following this thread almost since when I began training in SD. I've wanted to learn the Eight Immortals system, and CSC is the only school that teaches it anywhere in my area (yeah, I know, it'll take a while to get there--but I'm willing to work for it). I became skeptical as to SD's intents, and the ability of its students, even though they gave me no reason to (i.e. often beat the crap out of me)and I enjoyed my training immensely---just because I'd been following this thread. Since then, I've been introduced to several styles in elementary forms, and some a little more complex. The 3 bird (dove?) forms of brown belt and the cranes are definitely right up my alley (yeah, I'm one of those athletic, really flexible/quick guys). My sparring has changed greatly. I've always used my animals first (tiger, usually), even before straight up boxing (the kickboxing we're accused of displaying):rolleyes: . But bird has become my MO. It's best suited to me. Funny how that happens. You want one thing, but find something better suited for you in the process.

So if there is a strength to SD's approach to teaching, it's just that. You might think that you know what you want, but ultimately, you don't always know what you want. And as for its effectiveness in teaching everyone---well, it sucks. But it's the right way to teach the right kinds of students.

Anyway.....I've decided to stick with it, and I fully trust my instructors at this point. Do I really have a choice? Not sure. Still debating that one. All I know is that their senior students absolutely destroy me in sparring. I've picked up a lot of fighting knowledge and philosophy, and have become infinitely better at what I do. Our best fighters are usually mantis and internal guys/gals, but I know by now that that's not my cup of tea. But with 3 schools in Atlanta/MetroATL, I've found several "mentors" to get me along on my particular path. If I can fight in my birds like they do--which is to say, completely effictively--I'll consider it success enough for me. Until then, I'll keep practicing everything else as well, and look forward to the Immortals.

So, I decided yesterday to write a post collecting all the information contained in the thread as it pertained to SD, like a compendium of supposition and surmise. It utilized both pros and cons. It was twice the length allowed by KFM's engine, and I considered breaking it up, but had to leave work right then. So I saved it in Word, and intended to post it this morning. When I thought about it last night though, I kept hearing the tone of the post in my head--it read like a human interest story. I sounded incredibly human; it was a martial art that had its controversies and hardships, its triumphs and downfalls---and I decided not to post it, unless anyone actually wants to read it. When it all comes together, all those little SD inconsistencies kind of reinforce each other and explain each other. It's funny....it all sounded so disparaging at first, when I stumbled on this train wreck thread. But it kind of educated me to the game we've got here.

And now, all I can say is this (ala JP, GT, KC, BQlin...): I love to train. I just want to train. I love what I'm doing. If I could, I would marry it.:D

Anyway....that's that. They've managed to sucker in a skeptic (oh, and I am such a snarling little skeptic, at that.)

Good luck, guys. The story doesn't matter anymore. Nor do the cosmetics. SD is SD. It isn't anything else. All the rest is just fashion, nothing more.

Get over it.:p

[Lokhopkuen]

Wow, that horse must be really tall.


Here one more time before I put you on ignore.
Your post

My quote:




Now using short and to the point sentences is quite okay for you. I use the same exact posting method and look here:

Now after all of this here is my

The yawn was in response to the "fork lets fight" smart alec comment. Yet, I do explain in a respectful manner my position.

Then you start ranting about how I should respect you, I'm anonymous, too much posting, and I wouldn't talk to you this way in person.

Get your facts straight.

I noticed you never answered my PM and that says all I needed to know.
Instead you speak f e c e s in public.

[lxtruong]

I have no idea what you guys are arguing about now, since Torts and Contracts are kicking my ass....but since people are calling each other names again...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Don't be that guy.

[godzillakungfu]

I noticed you never answered my PM and that says all I needed to know.
Instead you speak f e c e s in public.

Yep, thats me I don't answer PM's never sent. Remember the system can check and see what PM's are sent and recieved.

I tell you what you send it, I'll answer it. Last PM I recieved was from a poster on another thread.


I know you are angry and still upset about internet respect but please, don't lie to make yourself look better.

I'll chalk it up to a mis-spelling of my handle right now and give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Lokhopkuen]

Thank you for all of your kind words.

[kwaichang]

ROCKY 6 COMES OUT THE 20TH OF Dec. Who is going to see it ??? KC

[godzillakungfu]

I am not angry I was hoping to meet and see if your boxing skill equals your typing skill but I am sure you are too busy living in some remote backwater wrestling gattors or skinning a coon.

I don't get angry and I don't need your respect. I've sent 3 PM's so far all unanswered and I do not need to make myself look better as I look too good already.

You haven't sent any PMs to me quit lying.

Let me know if you want to come to my state since ,you've challenged me.

Here, this way it can be set up in a nuetral location.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31

[Lokhopkuen]

Thank you for all of your kind words.

[Lokhopkuen]

You haven't sent any PMs to me quit lying.

Let me know if you want to come to my state since ,you've challenged me.

Here, this way it can be set up in a nuetral location.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31

So what now I have to sign up on another forum to play hands with you?

Ha ha ha!

[godzillakungfu]

So what now I have to sign up on another forum to play hands with you?

Ha ha ha!

It is up to you what you want to do. I honestly don't care.

You'll be traveling so you let me know. I know their PM system work. When you lie about sending them they will call you on it.

So, you decide when you have free time. This way you have 2 places to send your imaginary emails.

[Judge Pen]

I have no idea what you guys are arguing about now, since Torts and Contracts are kicking my ass....

Torts and contracts? Why would you do that to yourself? :D

KC, I'll probably watch Rocky 6 on DVD later. Sky and I have been upgrading our home theatre since we figured we wouldn't be going to the movies that often with the little one. Fearless is being released on HDDVD soon. Come over and watch it with me, then we'll go through some of our material....

[Lokhopkuen]

It is up to you what you want to do. I honestly don't care.

You'll be traveling so you let me know. I know their PM system work. When you lie about sending them they will call you on it.

So, you decide when you have free time. This way you have 2 places to send your imaginary emails.


I don't lie.

With that said if you ever figure out how to read your Private messages then please print each one out, fold it into large sharp triangles and stick it up your personality port.

I asked you to play hands, to box with me and you direct me to another internet forum.

Such a viscous, anonymous, godzilla, typer. Grrrrr!!!


*******************

Ok;
I just read all of your post to this forum. Guess what I discovered?

You have never contributed ONE OUNCE of content about martial art or martial essence.

All of your post are personality based or politic related.

NOTHING furthering the study of the arts, no insights into practice or form.

Tells me you have no knowledge, you can't fight, you have no skill except viscous, anonymous, godzilla, typer skills!! POSER!!!!!!!

Not worth my time master typer. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! I have female students who would wipe the floor with you. Hahahahahahhahahahahaaaaaaa!

The end.....

[godzillakungfu]

Just like you chasing all over the internet, on multiple forums defending your honor, looking for respect.

Whatever. I like how I've accepted Twice (3 time now) yet you can't answer. Well, if I supposedly won't answer your PM's put it on the thread. You've already challenged me in the open on this thread.

Why is it so hard to say what you need to say here. Oh because you are so mad you'll be cursing.

Why do you have to hide behind the PM system for?

When you learn how to stop typing with your lips you let me know.

I'm done ruining this thread. Go ahead and get the last word, I can see exactly what you are, read my previous post again.:p

[Flaca]

I have no idea what you guys are arguing about now, since Torts and Contracts are kicking my ass....but since people are calling each other names again...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Don't be that guy.

How're you doing?
:)

Pat

[Baqualin]

ROCKY 6 COMES OUT THE 20TH OF Dec. Who is going to see it ??? KC

Hey KC how's the little one!!!!
I'm like JP I'll wait till it comes out on video.
When are you coming in town?
BQ

[Baqualin]

I have no idea what you guys are arguing about now, since Torts and Contracts are kicking my ass....but since people are calling each other names again...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Don't be that guy.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! That was great & true too:D

[kwaichang]

JP I dont think Lukas would tolerate a movie but we can w/o sometime if you want. Baqualin , The baby is fine we named her Madelyn Ruth she is already past her birth weight. I hope to be in Lexington soon hopefully Dec. I need to contact Master Ben as to his availability. Still working on my 5th BB stuff at home took up running again 2.5 miles per day haha, and progressing slowly. Hope to see you soon KC

[Judge Pen]

JP I dont think Lukas would tolerate a movie but we can w/o sometime if you want. Baqualin , The baby is fine we named her Madelyn Ruth she is already past her birth weight. I hope to be in Lexington soon hopefully Dec. I need to contact Master Ben as to his availability. Still working on my 5th BB stuff at home took up running again 2.5 miles per day haha, and progressing slowly. Hope to see you soon KC

We could play Lukas' videos upstairs along with Madelyn and Autumn. Your running 2.5 miles a day? Doing better than me.... I'm doing nothing but running through some forms from time to time. We need to start meeting up.... how early do you get up? I have a key to a training area that's free in the mornings.

[Lokhopkuen]

I come here for all the nice things you say!

You make my day!!


Just like you chasing all over the internet, on multiple forums defending your honor, looking for respect.

Whatever. I like how I've accepted Twice (3 time now) yet you can't answer. Well, if I supposedly won't answer your PM's put it on the thread. You've already challenged me in the open on this thread.

Why is it so hard to say what you need to say here. Oh because you are so mad you'll be cursing.

Why do you have to hide behind the PM system for?

When you learn how to stop typing with your lips you let me know.

I'm done ruining this thread. Go ahead and get the last word, I can see exactly what you are, read my previous post again.:p

[Lokhopkuen]

The last place you want to be is in front of me. You have accepted nothing.
What is your name? Where do you live? You talk real bold from the persona of godzilla.....

The only place I post is here. Well there was one little thing on Fightauthority but I put that to rest.

I don't need to chase respect, I have it.

Someone told me you are in west coast Chinese Shaolin Centers. Let me know, pick a place, bring a friend or five. Being that you have such a sweet personality someone who loves you will PM me who you are and then I will go about the task to bless you. I am not angry, I am happy at the prospect of meeting with you and sharing ideas.

I am still waiting to see a post from you where you do any thing except talk BS.
Show me one post where YOU CONTRIBUTED TO THE BODY OF MARTIAL KNOWLEDGE?

Who are are you girly man?


Just like you chasing all over the internet, on multiple forums defending your honor, looking for respect.

Whatever. I like how I've accepted Twice (3 time now) yet you can't answer. Well, if I supposedly won't answer your PM's put it on the thread. You've already challenged me in the open on this thread.

Why is it so hard to say what you need to say here. Oh because you are so mad you'll be cursing.

Why do you have to hide behind the PM system for?

When you learn how to stop typing with your lips you let me know.

I'm done ruining this thread. Go ahead and get the last word, I can see exactly what you are, read my previous post again.:p

[Shaolin Wookie]

The last place you want to be is in front of me.
Who are are you girly man?


Hmm.....seems like the last thing any of us want is for you to be behind us.....:p

[Judge Pen]

Guys let's play nice. We don't want to give this thread a bad name....:p

[Lokhopkuen]

Hmm.....seems like the last thing any of us want is for you to be behind us.....:p

Trying to get on my good side? i have a suggestion for the placement of your hydrospanner. Oh yea, get a hair cut man. Geeze!;)

[Flaca]

Trying to get on my good side? i have a suggestion for the placement of your hydrospanner. Oh yea, get a hair cut man. Geeze!;)

Tee hee. SDers don't discuss haircuts... ;) :p

[godzillakungfu]

The last place you want to be is in front of me. You have accepted nothing.
What is your name? Where do you live? You talk real bold from the persona of godzilla.....

The only place I post is here. Well there was one little thing on Fightauthority but I put that to rest.

I don't need to chase respect, I have it.

Someone told me you are in west coast Chinese Shaolin Centers. Let me know, pick a place, bring a friend or five. Being that you have such a sweet personality someone who loves you will PM me who you are and then I will go about the task to bless you. I am not angry, I am happy at the prospect of meeting with you and sharing ideas.

I am still waiting to see a post from you where you do any thing except talk BS.
Show me one post where YOU CONTRIBUTED TO THE BODY OF MARTIAL KNOWLEDGE?

Who are are you girly man?


So, your PM function does work when are you really going to use it?

All these posts and you are talking about contributing? Bwahahahahahahaha....okay.

So, you do post on other forums. You've now established that you do lie.

Nope see you challenged, you come to my state, you bring your friends and we can get everything going.

Until, you get this throough your head it will be you puffing out your chest.

Like you said earlier.

[Baqualin]

We're all Shaolin, lets start acting like it:mad:

Are we so bored that we want to start cr@p with people who state the obvious.
Lok is very supportive of us and only commenting on what is available for everybody to see....which we all agree sucks (except for you JP).
I'm not speaking for anybody (sorry Lok) just stating the obvious.....so now I guess you guys can start cr@p with me:D
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hmm.....seems like the last thing any of us want is for you to be behind us.....:p

Sorry guys. It wasn't meant to be mean-spirited. I just thought a joke might alleviate their bickering a little bit.


I thought it was funny, anyways.

[Lokhopkuen]

So, your PM function does work when are you really going to use it?

All these posts and you are talking about contributing? Bwahahahahahahaha....okay.

So, you do post on other forums. You've now established that you do lie.

Nope see you challenged, you come to my state, you bring your friends and we can get everything going.

Until, you get this throough your head it will be you puffing out your chest.

Like you said earlier.

This is getting tiring. Can you read?

Pay attention:

What is your name?

Where do you live?

What school of boxing do you represent?

When and where would you like to meet

If you don't answer these simple questions then you don't want to play hands with me. Right?

I won't hurt you but I will teach you a sweet lesson.

You can apologize and return to your annoying postings devoid of any contributing essences martial or social and squash this thing. I am implying no threat. I won't make one effort to locate you or even pray for the opportunity of a chance meeting.

You talk crap to me because you assume you are safe. You think if you make me angry I will embarrass myself here. I have no shame and I don't get angry. Fear is not one of my problems. Some may wonder why I am even answering to this foolishness.

My contribution here is a lesson in respect amongst a loose fellowship of martial practitioners. If I am in a circle of my martial brothers and we have a conflict that cannot be resolved by negotiation and compromise we take it to the boxing platform. This "solves" nothing in a true sense but it creates a connection and bond. After two people mix it up they sometimes become strong friends and if nothing else it lets us know we are held responsible for what we say and do.

Let me know brah 'cause I'm down for whatever you have in mind.

[Baqualin]

Sorry guys. It wasn't meant to be mean-spirited. I just thought a joke might alleviate their bickering a little bit.


I thought it was funny, anyways.

Your cool it was funny;)

[Judge Pen]

Nah, I think I suck too (at least in forms) but we're talking about degrees of sucking.

[Lokhopkuen]

We're all Shaolin, lets start acting like it:mad:

Are we so bored that we want to start cr@p with people who state the obvious.
Lok is very supportive of us and only commenting on what is available for everybody to see....which we all agree sucks (except for you JP).
I'm not speaking for anybody (sorry Lok) just stating the obvious.....so now I guess you guys can start cr@p with me:D
BQ
Thanks BQ.

I ain't upset, just stirring the ole Shaolin-Do pot, haha!

Peace

[kungfujunky]

hey lok ill play hands with you

if your ever in colorado pm me or if i get out to ca ill drop you one

always interested in seeing where my fake shaolin takes me in fights!

hehe

[Lokhopkuen]

hey lok ill play hands with you

if your ever in colorado pm me or if i get out to ca ill drop you one

always interested in seeing where my fake shaolin takes me in fights!

hehe

Thanks Bro;
I am in & out of Vale now and again when there is powder. What town you in?
We can give each other a few lumps, catch a little frost bite, then suck back a couple of brews and talk about the good ole days:D
I will hit you up next boarding adventure!

Yeeee Harrrr!!!!

Peace

[godzillakungfu]

This is getting tiring. Can you read?

Pay attention:

What is your name?

Where do you live?

What school of boxing do you represent?

When and where would you like to meet

If you don't answer these simple questions then you don't want to play hands with me. Right?

I won't hurt you but I will teach you a sweet lesson.

You can apologize and return to your annoying postings devoid of any contributing essences martial or social and squash this thing. I am implying no threat. I won't make one effort to locate you or even pray for the opportunity of a chance meeting.

You talk crap to me because you assume you are safe. You think if you make me angry I will embarrass myself here. I have no shame and I don't get angry. Fear is not one of my problems. Some may wonder why I am even answering to this foolishness.

My contribution here is a lesson in respect amongst a loose fellowship of martial practitioners. If I am in a circle of my martial brothers and we have a conflict that cannot be resolved by negotiation and compromise we take it to the boxing platform. This "solves" nothing in a true sense but it creates a connection and bond. After two people mix it up they sometimes become strong friends and if nothing else it lets us know we are held responsible for what we say and do.

Let me know brah 'cause I'm down for whatever you have in mind.

Blah Blah Blah. I already learned a lesson from you it is called lying.

Never tried to make you mad, you are the one writing these huge disertations on how right you are, whatever.

I told you where to go or really PM me like you claimed. You choose not to so the onus is on you.

[Lokhopkuen]

Blah Blah Blah. I already learned a lesson from you it is called lying.

Never tried to make you mad, you are the one writing these huge disertations on how right you are, whatever.

I told you where to go or really PM me like you claimed. You choose not to so the onus is on you.

I can see I am dealing with the mentally ill.


Peace

[mong i]

To Godzillakungfu--

If you want to walk in circles you may want to explore the finer essences of baguaxiang, which may help your focus and perhaps even mature and elevate your spirit. I have seen no evidence of any intention on your part to contribute to the evolution of martial arts or of communication at large--I for one wish you luck in your seeking...

p.s. lokhopkuen's students do not find your banter the least bit novel, and would be more than happy to track you down and help you rethink your position--;)

[Golden Tiger]

Let me know brah 'cause I'm down for whatever you have in mind.




lokhopkuen's students do not find your banter the least bit novel, and would be more than happy to track you down


Somebody's been watching too many reruns of "DOG, The bounty hunter":rolleyes:

[KungFu Student]

Instead of continuing the **** swinging contest, why don't we, oh, I don't know, perhaps get back to discussing our respective arts? This whole "I will track you down and adjust your thinking", is just juvenile. And the replies are just egging it along. Let it go guys.

[godzillakungfu]

I can see I am dealing with the mentally ill.

Peace

Hmmmmm.....?


To Godzillakungfu--

If you want to walk in circles you may want to explore the finer essences of baguaxiang, which may help your focus and perhaps even mature and elevate your spirit. I have seen no evidence of any intention on your part to contribute to the evolution of martial arts or of communication at large--I for one wish you luck in your seeking...

p.s. lokhopkuen's students do not find your banter the least bit novel, and would be more than happy to track you down and help you rethink your position--

Yes, I guess you are right.^^

Parrots are better in bird cages and at the zoo. Do what you gotta do.

[Lokhopkuen]

Silly is as silly does........:p :p :p

[godzillakungfu]

Silly is as silly does........:p :p :p

I guess we are in the same boat. Good to know we have something in common.:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's funny. I came to this forum when looking for some SD sites online at work. Since then, I've been following it really closely. I didn't really make a tour of KFM's forum, just stuck to this thread. For a while, I was a doubting Thomas--you know, one of the SD, not sure if it was real.

Then I got to looking around over the past month or so--made a few stops, did some reading, learned 1 thing (from a bouncer in the Self-Defense forum talking about ripping off lips, etc---I highly recommend the "Self-Defense stories" thread solely for his posts!!!!--oh, you'll know it when you see him...), dropped a few jokes, etc. I've begun to wonder--does anyone have anything to say? Ever??

All discussions turn into "MMA is the best", or "Kung-fu is the deadliest", or "My Shaolin is real, yours is fake" (not just on this thread, but all over), or even "That's not true Traditional Chinese MA, your master lied to you when he said that. Now let me tell you what's really true. My master told me....blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....."

It's really quite laughable. I thought I'd be able to converse with knowledgeable people, but they act like children. I guess it's no surprise. They're on the internet talking about whose physical activity is superior to another's. Clearly, this is not a venue for people like myself. I often learn a lot by simply thinking about a form--especially when I'm just sitting around, relaxing. And my job's so boring, I think I have plenty of time to do just that. With a little meditation and Ho Tien Chi breathing, I can practice my martial arts here sitting at my console. I'm just going to forget this forum and the MA internet world. It's just ridiculous. No offense to Gene, though. He seems like a stand-up guy. Just this whole forum reads like a soap-opera, or a martial arts tabloid.

I don't think I'll ever be back, except to check up on this thread every once in a while, or to see of Li chian Po, or whatever his name was, has posted any more lip-ripping techniques in the Self-Defense Stories thread.

These internet martial arts forums run in circles. I'm gettin' dizzy, and I think I'm going to go throw up....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Oh, and nobody's ever convinced me that anyone has better credentials than any SD'er. Fact or fiction...who cares? It works. That makes it relevant to me. A real lineage with fake results--like some of the other schools I visited before Shaolin-Tao CSC Atlanta--that's what''s fake.

Peace.

Good luck to TTM, BQLin, KC (I've seen the light, too, brother), JP, and you other loyal SD'ers. The Xia, MK, TWS....good luck to you, too.

To all the trolls: .................................................. ................................

[Shaolin-Drunk]

Seems this topic will never die..

As an ex black belt SDer, behind all the folklore and great stories we (SDer) know it all comes down to one thing, SD Brotherhood.

has anyone seen the New Grandmaster Sin web site?

www.grandmasterthe.com (http://www.grandmasterthe.com)


Check out his biography, childhood pictures, ARNIE, and he mentions a blurb about the new movies. Yes, all is answered!! Enjoy

[MasterKiller]

crickey :rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

Oh, and nobody's ever convinced me that anyone has better credentials than any SD'er. Fact or fiction...who cares? It works. That makes it relevant to me. A real lineage with fake results--like some of the other schools I visited before Shaolin-Tao CSC Atlanta--that's what''s fake.

Peace.

Good luck to TTM, BQLin, KC (I've seen the light, too, brother), JP, and you other loyal SD'ers. The Xia, MK, TWS....good luck to you, too.

To all the trolls: .................................................. ................................

The pleasure has been ours & we'll miss your post.:) I hope the day comes when the inner politics of SD & CSC can be put aside for the students sake (it's unfair to us!!) & we are One again.:D WE ALL have alot to learn from each other.

Merry Christmas to You:cool:
BQ

[kwaichang]

I know for a fact that we will all be one soon I look forward to that time. I enjoy learning from all. But my dedication is always to GMT. I just Love Shaolin Do.
KC:) :cool: :p ;) :( :o :D :confused: :)

[kwaichang]

Hey Baqualin should be in town on the 30th of Dec. How bout a meal ??? KC

[Baqualin]

Hey Baqualin should be in town on the 30th of Dec. How bout a meal ??? KC

Call me....not exactly sure what my schedule will be that weekend, my son will be in from Iraq...first time in 3 yrs. for Xmas......but please call me that week & I'll know more then. Hopefully we can do lunch or dinner:cool: I finished up Pakua spear finally....man you talk about a fun form....it will make you dizzy when you really get flowing.......trying to hit it twice a day right now..........hopefully I'll have it good enough to demo it this fall;) BQ

[Flaca]

I know for a fact that we will all be one soon I look forward to that time.

Woo hoo!!!! :D :cool:

[BoulderDawg]

Just a question or two for the hard core Shaolin-Do guys out there:

To start with I have no problem with the art itself and could really care less about the lineage. That said I draw the line at what I saw in a recent brown belt test.

There were two guys who were going from 3rd brown to 2nd brown. When they were taking the test it became obvious that they simply did not know the material. They could not get through any form they had to preform and during the preformance the Master had to coach them through the various moves to just get them to the end.

These two guys passed the test and were promoted to 2nd degree Brown Belt. I could not believe it. I'm wondering what value any belt has if you cannot fail a test for it.

I guess my questions for long timers out there are "Do you think this is right?" and "Do all Shaolin-Do schools do this?"

[tattooedmonk]

Just a question or two for the hard core Shaolin-Do guys out there:

To start with I have no problem with the art itself and could really care less about the lineage. That said I draw the line at what I saw in a recent brown belt test.

There were two guys who were going from 3rd brown to 2nd brown. When they were taking the test it became obvious that they simply did not know the material. They could not get through any form they had to preform and during the preformance the Master had to coach them through the various moves to just get them to the end.

These two guys passed the test and were promoted to 2nd degree Brown Belt. I could not believe it. I'm wondering what value any belt has if you cannot fail a test for it.

I guess my questions for long timers out there are "Do you think this is right?" and "Do all Shaolin-Do schools do this?" Aww sh!t. I have seen this too many times I saw it on a black belt test twice. I have failed people when I was on the panel and they threw out my score sheet. This SU-C-K-S. no it is not right. but it is a business now more than anything else which makes it suck even more.

[Judge Pen]

I think this is a problem now. When I first started, they would have had the opportunity to stop, collect themselves, and re-start the test in a few moments to see if it was just nerves etc. Then if they still had the problem, they would have failed and tested the next time GMT was in (back then GMT came to our little school every three months). I think this problem is because of $$ and the fear of alienating a student. The by-product is that now there's so many lackluster students out there that its hard to find any good examples of SD anymore.

[BentMonk]

This doesn't happen with us. We have a pre-test. If you can't pass your pre-test with flying colors, you save your $$ until you're ready, and go practice.

[kwaichang]

No and NO.
A test is just that , but should not be the deciding factor. The person should not be allowed to test unless pre tested by the teacher first. I personally do not believe in testing formally as there are those that can Kick A// every class then screw up royal at the time of test. If you do X number of hours in the class and make a good showing on those days then I feel the test should be opted out. KC:cool:

[brucereiter]

This doesn't happen with us. We have a pre-test. If you can't pass your pre-test with flying colors, you save your $$ until you're ready, and go practice.

this is how it is done in atl also ... the pre test/evaluation is the real test ...

not to say that we dont have a bit of this problem also though :eek:

[MasterKiller]

Just a question or two for the hard core Shaolin-Do guys out there:

To start with I have no problem with the art itself and could really care less about the lineage. That said I draw the line at what I saw in a recent brown belt test.

There were two guys who were going from 3rd brown to 2nd brown. When they were taking the test it became obvious that they simply did not know the material. They could not get through any form they had to preform and during the preformance the Master had to coach them through the various moves to just get them to the end.

These two guys passed the test and were promoted to 2nd degree Brown Belt. I could not believe it. I'm wondering what value any belt has if you cannot fail a test for it.

I guess my questions for long timers out there are "Do you think this is right?" and "Do all Shaolin-Do schools do this?"


Did Sin The' promote these guys or their instructor?

[Flaca]

This doesn't happen with us. We have a pre-test. If you can't pass your pre-test with flying colors, you save your $$ until you're ready, and go practice.
this is how it is done in atl also ... the pre test/evaluation is the real test ...

not to say that we dont have a bit of this problem also though :eek:

There are those who pre-test well, which is required at my school prior to testing for GMT, but who then 'freeze' in front of GMT. I've seen folks fail the pre-test, and rightly so. The pre-test is far more rigorous than the actual test. We're required to test on all our material up to level on the pre-test, which is gruelling. GMT only tests on the current material, plus a possible kata or 2 of his choice.

I'm approaching my 2nd BB test, and my current material alone takes 30 minutes to go through. For the pre-test, it'll take maybe 45 minutes on top of that to do the up-to-black material. :eek: :eek:

[Baqualin]

Just a question or two for the hard core Shaolin-Do guys out there:

To start with I have no problem with the art itself and could really care less about the lineage. That said I draw the line at what I saw in a recent brown belt test.

There were two guys who were going from 3rd brown to 2nd brown. When they were taking the test it became obvious that they simply did not know the material. They could not get through any form they had to preform and during the preformance the Master had to coach them through the various moves to just get them to the end.

These two guys passed the test and were promoted to 2nd degree Brown Belt. I could not believe it. I'm wondering what value any belt has if you cannot fail a test for it.

I guess my questions for long timers out there are "Do you think this is right?" and "Do all Shaolin-Do schools do this?"

NO THEY DON'T & NO IT'S NOT RIGHT:mad: It's things like this that caused the split between east & west. We like most, pretest......if you don't pass it then you wait till next time....period. The're Masters & students in our system who don't deserve the ranking & I don't care if they get mad for me saying this....it's the truth!!! It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see if someone $UCK$

Also FYI the head instructor at our school could care less about the money...only the art!!!

[kungfujunky]

i know and have trained with both guys you are attacking publicly boulder dawg.

they both passed their pretests but nerves do funny things to people

the pretest is the main test. if they do not pass that they dont test. the masters account for nerves. they have been around more tests than any of us in csc.

i think you are being a little harsh on this personally. those guys work every day at their material. its just hard for them. they get nervous.

not one person on that test did an even passing job if you grade to the extreme.


everyone had baubles and mess ups.

in my opinion unless you know the people and have trained with them then keep your judgements to yourself. because you dont know what they can do when they are in their comfort zone.

[kungfujunky]

NO THEY DON'T & NO IT'S NOT RIGHT:mad: It's things like this that caused the split between east & west. We like most, pretest......if you don't pass it then you wait till next time....period. The're Masters & students in our system who don't deserve the ranking & I don't care if they get mad for me saying this....it's the truth!!! It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see if someone $UCK$

Also FYI the head instructor at our school could care less about the money...only the art!!!



ah bq i think that is an unfair statement my friend.

i know gmt and have sat on his panels. i have seen him pass people that have had bad tests.

but when you start to get up in ranks in black belt he will fail you. as will the masters. ive seen a pretest for upper blacks that master david told one person he needed to wait until next year and work on his material more.

so dont take just one account of a test without knowing a bit more about the facts. yes they did poorly on the birds....but they both got through lien wu chang on their own and that is a much longer and technical form.

honestly this sort of thing should not be on a public forum.

if you had issue with it boulderdawg both the masters were there for your benefit. why didnt you ask them?

[brucereiter]

i know and have trained with both guys you are attacking publicly boulder dawg.

they both passed their pretests but nerves do funny things to people

the pretest is the main test. if they do not pass that they dont test. the masters account for nerves. they have been around more tests than any of us in csc.

i think you are being a little harsh on this personally. those guys work every day at their material. its just hard for them. they get nervous.

not one person on that test did an even passing job if you grade to the extreme.


everyone had baubles and mess ups.

in my opinion unless you know the people and have trained with them then keep your judgements to yourself. because you dont know what they can do when they are in their comfort zone.

i would also add that the test are about your own personal improvement. the way i look at it is i try to remember how the person was when they walked into the school the first time even if the "suck" there should be some improvement each time they test. it is not about how someone looks next to the other people testing but about how they are compaired to how they used to be ...

[Yao Sing]

in my opinion unless you know the people and have trained with them then keep your judgements to yourself. because you dont know what they can do when they are in their comfort zone.

Isn't that part of the test? Who gets into fights when they're in their 'comfort zone'?

A big part of testing should be how you function under pressure.

[tattooedmonk]

nerves?????? if you can not do it when the pressure is on for a test then how are you going to use it as a form of self defense???

you will get your A$$ handed to you if you do not know the material on all levels..

it needs to be hard wired into your body, spirit, and mind even at the white to yellow belt level.

yes it is about the money and yes it is about not alienating anyone but at what point do you say I am not going to compromise the integrity of the art just for these reasons??

if you do not do well on your test you do not pass ...period!!!

And I do not care how well a person does in class. it is not a reflection of how they will handle and/ or conduct themselves on the street.

you should not have to think about it .

if you do then you do not know it ........you only remember it. and remembering it does not get it done.

I know a lot of you guys are politically correct and all but give me a break.

I believe that there are too many compromises in certain areas that should not be. it devalues the integrity of the art, it's masters, and students.

I know that some of you might not like it but the truth is the truth and that is all that matters to me.

is it a martial arts program or a knitting class???:

Martial arts....... what is your definition of martial arts???

would you send and untrained or inadequate soldier out into the battlefield just because you did not want to hurt his/ her feelings??

come on now...

I believe many of you need to reevaluate as to what it is and why it is you are
in the martial arts if it is not for the desired effect, to be able to defend yourself in mind ( psychologically), spirit ( philosophically) , and body ( physically).

It is not martial arts unless you can use it in self defense or in a fight.

....otherwise it is just exercise/ performance art.

[kungfujunky]

a fight and performing forms are 2 way different things my friend

in their sparring both individuals did just fine

[tattooedmonk]

a fight and performing forms are 2 way different things my friend

in their sparring both individuals did just fineSO??? by that time they had a chance to loosen up and prepare. why should it be different???:D

[Flaca]

nerves?????? if you can not do it when the pressure is on for a test then how are you going to use it as a form of self defense???

And I do not care how well a person does in class. it is not a reflection of how they will handle and/ or conduct themselves on the street.

It is not martial arts unless you can use it in self defense or in a fight.

....otherwise it is just exercise/ performance art.

The same could be said for testing. Testing nerves are completely different from fighting intensity. Have you ever stuttered, been at a loss for words? That's comparable to testing nerves. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to defend yourself. It's unrelated to political correctness or girly arts.

One of the best martial artists I know got stuck twice on Hua fist in a tournament. It could have happened in a test. Does this make him less of a martial artist? No. Does this make him a wuss in a fight? He!! No. He's downright scary.

Sounds like you're someone who doesn't get severe nerve attacks and can safely put down anyone who does.

[tattooedmonk]

Isn't that part of the test? Who gets into fights when they're in their 'comfort zone'?

A big part of testing should be how you function under pressure. I agree!!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

Happy Holidays everyone! From the Sagascious Lu Da

[kwaichang]

Few have fight anxiety but many have test anxiety it has nothing to do with ability or knowledge level KC

[tattooedmonk]

The same could be said for testing. Testing nerves are completely different from fighting intensity. Have you ever stuttered, been at a loss for words? That's comparable to testing nerves. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to defend yourself. It's unrelated to political correctness or girly arts.

One of the best martial artists I know, 4th BB, got stuck twice on Hua fist in a tournament. It could have happened in a test. Does this make him less of a martial artist? No. Does this make him a wuss in a fight? He!! No. He's downright scary.

Sounds like you're someone who doesn't get severe nerve attacks and can safely put down anyone who does.this is my point ...if it happens in a test or in a performance it is because you are thinking about it.you should not have to think about it, if you do on the streets, you could be dead.

and yes this does mean that you might not be able to defend yourself in a fight.

this momentary freeze can cost you your life.

you ever heard of fight or flight response??

this is an area of training that I believe is lacking in many so called traditional schools

testing your nerves( this is part of the over all test) at such a low level intensity should not cause you to freeze up .

imagine if the intensity was higher and this happened. it can happen to everyone and probably has but this is why we train .......so this does not happen .

[tattooedmonk]

Few have fight anxiety but many have test anxiety it has nothing to do with ability or knowledge level KC most have fight anxiety . sparring is not the same .especially the way it is mostly done below BB ( tag). this should be part of test and in my opinion is. remembering something and knowing it are 2 different things.

[kungfujunky]

in a real fight people are not going to be using the new application from hua fist they just learned. they will be using there basics to survive. which in 99% of the fights will more than adequately suffice.

monk you have a very inflated idea of martial arts of today. we all train to learn and to be able to defend ourselves. (most anyways)

but you condemn us for not training to be able to pick up our dao and cut off an intruders head when he breaks into our home....

dude relax.

not everyone thinks the way you do and your philosophy towards training is extreme to say the least (at least your online philosophy...not sure how you train in real life)

if any martial artist were to get in a fight and happened to hurt the opponent bad guess what...we the martial artists go to jail.

there are a few instances where this wouldnt happen but for the most part thats how it is.

we train so we dont have to fight

a palm strike to the chest with power says just as much to an attacker as kicking them in the head.

we are not supposed to use our training to fight. we are supposed to use it to not fight.

[Baqualin]

OK
KFJ...your right about this, it should be discussed in private instead of on a public forum. But it wasn't, so I expressed my opinion and stick with it. I wasn't saying someone has to perform their material like a world champion....making a few mistakes is one thing, but someone at the Brown belt level should at the least know the material their testing on...nervous or not. Nobody needs to rush their rank....Shaolin-Do is not about rank, it's a lifestyle...testing is a gauge to where your at...if your to nervous to pass your test, then you are not comfortable enough with your material to overcome that. You need to step back and work on your material till it becomes 2nd nature or just be a form hog. This should have been noticed in the preTest.

[Baqualin]

Isn't that part of the test? Who gets into fights when they're in their 'comfort zone'?

A big part of testing should be how you function under pressure.

I agree
The later especially.....functioning under pressure...not just about fighting,
life in general....is this not part of GMS training.

KFJ by the way I'm not upset with you, I've just seen alot of this down thru the years, not just one incident and I get frustrated sometimes. The problem here is none of us were there to see the pretest or the regular test. I have to agree with JP this is why it's hard to find true SD performances anymore.:o

[Baqualin]

I think this is a problem now. When I first started, they would have had the opportunity to stop, collect themselves, and re-start the test in a few moments to see if it was just nerves etc. Then if they still had the problem, they would have failed and tested the next time GMT was in (back then GMT came to our little school every three months). I think this problem is because of $$ and the fear of alienating a student. The by-product is that now there's so many lackluster students out there that its hard to find any good examples of SD anymore.

I agree again This is why when Flying Monkey see's what's available he says it's not kungfu & he's right. He's not talking about our forms in general but how it's performed.

[Baqualin]

a palm strike to the chest with power says just as much to an attacker as kicking them in the head.

As an internal practictioner I had rather be kicked in the head:D

[Baqualin]

Happy Holidays everyone! From the Sagascious Lu Da

THANKS
And the same to you!!!

[kwaichang]

Many of you guage a martial artists ability by how well they fight, that is why I said that about "fight anxiety". However test anxiety is very real , I have known those who can perform their "stuff" forward and backward but still have difficulty with testing. Should they fail ?? and should those with ego judge them and say they arent any good. Many can fight but lose in tournaments so I guess they cant fight. If I use your views then , they cant fight or shouldnt pass because they cant do Hua well or test poorly. I feel testing is a poor method to "test" the level of a martial artist. To some it is a way to make money to others it is a way of tearing down the ego. Both reasons are flawed.

Do not judge the level of a person by how poorly they test. KC :cool:

[kwaichang]

Hey TTM when I was in another system my test for 2 BB was to do my Katas and "spar" 2 people at the same time . One thing though they were told to try and break my nose now that was "tag" your it anxiety. Was a good test. KC

[KungFu Student]

This is how I think my Master looks at testing, I could be wrong, but it is how it seems to me, and I think it works. For adults, white through green, if you can get through the material without major mistakes, then that indicates to him that you are able to continue to work on the material you have on your own, and can move on to learn something new. He does not coach anyone during the test, and if you screw up really badly, he tells you what you need to work on and gives you a week before he allows you to test again. Third through first brown he holds to a somewhat higher standard, allows fewer mistakes but it is similiar to what happens with the lower belts. Now with black belts, he does not cut them any slack. They must pre-test first, and if they don't have it, then they have to keep working at it.
I realize that everyone has a different level of compentence with MA, and some are better at it then others, I do not believe that a person that is conducting a test should have to coach the students through it. If they don't know the material, then it is too soon for them to move on. If they know it, even if they have to struggle, or make minor mistakes, then I have no problem with them advancing, knowing that they will still be going over previous material at some point during subsequent classes.

[Baqualin]

Many of you guage a martial artists ability by how well they fight, that is why I said that about "fight anxiety". However test anxiety is very real , I have known those who can perform their "stuff" forward and backward but still have difficulty with testing. Should they fail ?? and should those with ego judge them and say they arent any good. Many can fight but lose in tournaments so I guess they cant fight. If I use your views then , they cant fight or shouldnt pass because they cant do Hua well or test poorly. I feel testing is a poor method to "test" the level of a martial artist. To some it is a way to make money to others it is a way of tearing down the ego. Both reasons are flawed.

Do not judge the level of a person by how poorly they test. KC :cool:

It's not about level...it's about where you are in your studies, just like in any education...if someone cannot multiply very well they will have a hard time moving on to division. If they cannot carry one basket wouldn't it be unfair to try and make them carry two. The problem here is none of us were there....did they perform poorly or leave out a major portion of the form....there's a difference.
AS was stated by SDS the FIRST time you test on a particular form they just want to see if you can do the moves.....as you test later they want to see an improvement in how you do the form....to make sure your on the road to understanding applications, power generation and biomechanics.

I personally have not seen ego problems at the testing I've participated in and regarding the money thing it would make sense to pass everyone regardless.....more weapons to sell and higher test fees with higher rank.

Knowing you I'd say no one could be as hard on you as you are on yourself and when you test for 5th you will be very nervous and pass with flying colors.

Sometimes your just to nice....please don't change:D
BQ

[kungfujunky]

a palm strike to the chest with power says just as much to an attacker as kicking them in the head.

As an internal practictioner I had rather be kicked in the head:D



lol i knew youd like that one

and no worries my man. i didnt take it persoanl at all

[kwaichang]

The ego is not those who are testing the students but on those observing the testing. That is the gauge by which many judge. Like driving down the road and seeing a runner struggling. Some might think: that poor guy cant run very well I think man he must have run a long way. KC

[Baqualin]

The ego is not those who are testing the students but on those observing the testing. That is the gauge by which many judge. Like driving down the road and seeing a runner struggling. Some might think: that poor guy cant run very well I think man he must have run a long way. KC

Now that, I've seen alot of!:eek:
But I've also seen those same guys get their $h!t handed to them down the road...we have a few ego beaters hanging around:cool:

I guess I really I'm a moderate....if I saw the same dude running I'd probally think, either that guy is bad out of shape or he's been running for 5 days:D

[BoulderDawg]

i know and have trained with both guys you are attacking publicly boulder dawg.

they both passed their pretests but nerves do funny things to people

the pretest is the main test. if they do not pass that they dont test. the masters account for nerves. they have been around more tests than any of us in csc.

i think you are being a little harsh on this personally. those guys work every day at their material. its just hard for them. they get nervous.

not one person on that test did an even passing job if you grade to the extreme.


everyone had baubles and mess ups.

in my opinion unless you know the people and have trained with them then keep your judgements to yourself. because you dont know what they can do when they are in their comfort zone.

I'm not attacking anyone. I'm just stating what I saw. Had I of sat on that panel I could not have passed these guys....and maybe because of what I saw I will be rather leary of sitting on any in the future.

I just don't think it's fair for people who work their butts off for these belts....and, in reality, is it fair to the people who did poorly on the test to just be passed through the system?

Maybe I am being too harsh but I want to be proud of the art.

[kwaichang]

BD Isnt it enough to know you did the best YOU could. Why do you worry about others.

Lets assume that you have to do a form with the side splits in it and lets assume you need that form for that rank should you be held back because you cant do them ? Or how about doing an arial ?? There are those in 3rd to 4th BB in SD if you cant do one should you not pass ??
I feel those that do test should be graded on where they were when they last tested and if they have improved. There are those that "aint pretty" but try very very hard, I would rather pass them than those that can do the forms perfect but have no heart or love for Shaolin Do . Let those without sin cast the first stone. KC :D

[BoulderDawg]

It's not so much that someone "can't" do the form. I believe maximum effort should be rewarded. What I saw spoke more to a lack of preparation than an inability to do some aspect of the form.

Isn't Kung Fu mastery through time and effort? I guess this was my major sticking point here.

Anyway it's my understand that some schools do not charge for testing. Now the money is not really going to break many people however I think less pressure would be there for all parties involved if you did not pay for your test.

[kwaichang]

I agree BD but who are we to judge if someone has prepared or not ? I think that testing is a bit archaeic but that is my opinion only I think. Well maybe the talk of these people will get back to them and they will try harder next time .
Have you ever heard of Wolfs law as it pertains to Contractile tissues. In a nut shell " tissues will respond to the level of stress placed upon them" thus Muscle growth from weight training. Maybe the pressure from peers is like wolfs law and they will come around. KC

[kungfujunky]

It's not so much that someone "can't" do the form. I believe maximum effort should be rewarded. What I saw spoke more to a lack of preparation than an inability to do some aspect of the form.

Isn't Kung Fu mastery through time and effort? I guess this was my major sticking point here.

Anyway it's my understand that some schools do not charge for testing. Now the money is not really going to break many people however I think less pressure would be there for all parties involved if you did not pay for your test.



i agree.

and i know for a fact those guys had spent every waking moment in the school trying their best to get it down.

they really did apply maximum effort for what they could do.

not everyone, like kc said, can do forms to wow and awe.

what about the girl who nailed the kwan dao only to blank at the very last move? should she have failed? even though 98% of the form was done with spirit and focus and intensity?

[Lamassu]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the thread but I've been following it for a couple of months now... very entertaining. I just want to throw in my two cents about the whole testing thing now that I actually have an opinion on a topic being covered.

I've been practicing Shaolin-Do kung fu for over 5 years now, and my attitude whenever I tested had been that this was my chance to shine; to show off, and whenever I felt I wasn't ready to test then I would inform my sifu and I would be tested a later time. I think the reason why so many students seem unprepaired and nervous is because they're not ready to test yet, but feel pressured to do so. It's like they're afraid to be ostracized by their fellow students if they stay behind a belt level, kinda like grade school. But this isn't the focus of the kwoon; nor should it ever be. Students are attracted to our school like any other martial art schools: to learn and better themselves and they should realize the only person they're competing with as far as learning new material and progressing to higher belt ranks is with themselves. So what if your buddy that you joined SD is a belt level or two higher, that doesn't mean he's better than you or that your a lousy student. It just means you need more time to grasp the forms and know them intimately enough to progress to more complex ones. So should students fail testing if their forms aren't up to snuff? Absolutely, but it should never get that far. The sifu as well as the student should know well before the actual test if he/she is ready to and it's up to the student once testing has been scheduled, to practice consistently and step up the intensity to insure they not only pass, but more importantly know the material. After all, that is what you're paying for.

[brucereiter]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the thread but I've been following it for a couple of months now... very entertaining. I just want to throw in my two cents about the whole testing thing now that I actually have an opinion on a topic being covered.

I've been practicing Shaolin-Do kung fu for over 5 years now, and my attitude whenever I tested had been that this was my chance to shine; to show off, and whenever I felt I wasn't ready to test then I would inform my sifu and I would be tested a later time. I think the reason why so many students seem unprepaired and nervous is because they're not ready to test yet, but feel pressured to do so. It's like they're afraid to be ostracized by their fellow students if they stay behind a belt level, kinda like grade school. But this isn't the focus of the kwoon; nor should it ever be. Students are attracted to our school like any other martial art schools: to learn and better themselves and they should realize the only person they're competing with as far as learning new material and progressing to higher belt ranks is with themselves. So what if your buddy that you joined SD is a belt level or two higher, that doesn't mean he's better than you or that your a lousy student. It just means you need more time to grasp the forms and know them intimately enough to progress to more complex ones. So should students fail testing if their forms aren't up to snuff? Absolutely, but it should never get that far. The sifu as well as the student should know well before the actual test if he/she is ready to and it's up to the student once testing has been scheduled, to practice consistently and step up the intensity to insure they not only pass, but more importantly know the material. After all, that is what you're paying for.

you have a good outlook. keep up the practice and enjoy.

[BentMonk]

Well said Lamassu. I too see a rank advancement test as a chance to demonstrate my knowledge and skill at that point in my training. IMO MA study is a mostly personal journey, and the truest competition is with one's self. One of my goals in MA training was to become a black belt. I've done that. Now my goal is to continue perfecting that knowledge. I am no longer concerned with rank. It is not what rank you hold, or how many forms you can remember, it is how well you understand and apply what you know. JMO. Peace. :)

[Baqualin]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the thread but I've been following it for a couple of months now... very entertaining. I just want to throw in my two cents about the whole testing thing now that I actually have an opinion on a topic being covered.

I've been practicing Shaolin-Do kung fu for over 5 years now, and my attitude whenever I tested had been that this was my chance to shine; to show off, and whenever I felt I wasn't ready to test then I would inform my sifu and I would be tested a later time. I think the reason why so many students seem unprepaired and nervous is because they're not ready to test yet, but feel pressured to do so. It's like they're afraid to be ostracized by their fellow students if they stay behind a belt level, kinda like grade school. But this isn't the focus of the kwoon; nor should it ever be. Students are attracted to our school like any other martial art schools: to learn and better themselves and they should realize the only person they're competing with as far as learning new material and progressing to higher belt ranks is with themselves. So what if your buddy that you joined SD is a belt level or two higher, that doesn't mean he's better than you or that your a lousy student. It just means you need more time to grasp the forms and know them intimately enough to progress to more complex ones. So should students fail testing if their forms aren't up to snuff? Absolutely, but it should never get that far. The sifu as well as the student should know well before the actual test if he/she is ready to and it's up to the student once testing has been scheduled, to practice consistently and step up the intensity to insure they not only pass, but more importantly know the material. After all, that is what you're paying for.

You've spent your 5 years well:)
BQ

[Lamassu]

Thanks. It feels good to 'talk' with other SDer's again. I moved up to Chicago from Austin last year and I miss the friendly atmosphere at the North Austin kwoon and especially the San Marcos kwoon. I never realized how good I had it in central Texas until I moved into a state with no SD kwoon whatsoever. The nearest one is in Indiana, but my work schedule doesn't really give me time to travel. No classmates, no sifu or master to guide you, it's a lot harder to keep up with your material without the usual trappings of a martial art school. At least Master Schaefer gave me the go ahead to open one up here in Illinois. :D In the mean time I'm practicing my forms wherever and whenever I can.

Can you imagine all the weird looks you get when practicing your kung fu in a public park?

[kwaichang]

Lamassu I think I know you PM me KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Alright...I'm constantly having to spar higher ranking black belts at my school. I can hold my own on the defensive, because I'm good at protecting my line. It's really easy to turn a defensive stance into an offensive maneuver. For me, however, it's a lot harder to take the offensive/attacker position straight from the start. Now, I know I'm pretty much screwed when it comes to attacking certain ranks, but I compete hard, and am extremely good at stepping and dodging (i.e. footwork). My opening moves are generally feints, which allow me to mix up the attacker/defender personas two opponents generally take.

I'm kind of aggressive in a way. I'm not all hyped up and spastic, like some guys. I'm really cool and collected, but I go straight in, looking for any open head shots or opportunities for chin-na/sweeps to get the fight over with ASAP. Problem is, every higher ranking student takes a defensive position and awaits an attack. This leaves me at a disadvantage. I always have to open the match. I'm not expecting to go in and whoop a third/fourth degree, but it'd be nice to keep from getting whooped right off the bat. My opening movements always seem to leave me too open. Anyone have any solid tips for how to open a fight? (I do internal/external [same thing in my opinion] so I'm open to tips from both sides.) And please don't recommend a kick to open--that doesn't work for me, and I don't think that I ever want it to---I'm really not into kicks unless they're in the middle of a combo, aiming for the stomach/lower ribs.

Thanks....

[brucereiter]

Alright...I'm constantly having to spar higher ranking black belts at my school. I can hold my own on the defensive, because I'm good at protecting my line. It's really easy to turn a defensive stance into an offensive maneuver. For me, however, it's a lot harder to take the offensive/attacker position straight from the start. Now, I know I'm pretty much screwed when it comes to attacking certain ranks, but I compete hard, and am extremely good at stepping and dodging (i.e. footwork). My opening moves are generally feints, which allow me to mix up the attacker/defender personas two opponents generally take.

I'm kind of aggressive in a way. I'm not all hyped up and spastic, like some guys. I'm really cool and collected, but I go straight in, looking for any open head shots or opportunities for chin-na/sweeps to get the fight over with ASAP. Problem is, every higher ranking student takes a defensive position and awaits an attack. This leaves me at a disadvantage. I always have to open the match. I'm not expecting to go in and whoop a third/fourth degree, but it'd be nice to keep from getting whooped right off the bat. My opening movements always seem to leave me too open. Anyone have any solid tips for how to open a fight? (I do internal/external [same thing in my opinion] so I'm open to tips from both sides.) And please don't recommend a kick to open--that doesn't work for me, and I don't think that I ever want it to---I'm really not into kicks unless they're in the middle of a combo, aiming for the stomach/lower ribs.

Thanks....

hi there ...

try to put yourself in what appears to be a bad position by throwing a punch stepping in or what ever you can do that will cause a certain reaction from your training partner. this might cause them to "do" something and then you will have your chance to take advantage. lead them into your idea instead of letting them lead you into theirs.

another thing to try is to cause them to pay attention to one thing while you do another ...

keep up the hard work.

best,

b

[John Many Jars]

Are the feints not working for you or are you just looking to add more to your repertoire? If they aren't working maybe you're not selling them well enough. Or maybe you're becoming too predictable? =/ Have you tried occasionally striking with the technique you're feinting? What's that saying in poker? You can't bluff if you've never had a winning hand? Something like that. Just a thought.

Try to keep the pressure on your opponent. If you're not doing it already, throw multiple sets of combinations/ techniques every time you move in to attack.

Since you're good at "stepping and dodging" have you tried adapting your attacking techniques to include moving around your opponent. I get a lot of my applications from the 3 birds and with the exception of a few direction changes theyseem like pretty linear forms....to me anyway. But even something as simple as a hook/elbow/chop from Lo Tien (sp?) can add a new demention to your game. What if instead of just raising your knee up to protect the groin and body for the "hook/elbow", then step forward for the chop, you step forward and swing your rear leg out 90 degrees. Now all of a sudden your sqared up to either his side or back which could set you up for your next attack. I realize everything I'm saying is pretty elementary but it's really just a segue to my next point...variation.

Decide on an opening attack and come up with multiple variations of it from the same starting position. That way you become more unpredictable to your sparring partner.

I have one other note. My personal experience w/ feints is that the harder the level of contact I go the more effective my feints have become. I think there's something about wanting to avoid getting hit in the head that makes people over-commit w/ their blocking.


Disclaimer. This only pertains to my personal experience w/ sparring. I really have no idea if any of it would work in a real fight. Though a guy I practice w/ occasionally like to really go at it. ;)

[Baqualin]

Just wanted to wish everyone including trolls a MERRY CHRISTMAS & A HAPPY NEW YEAR OR HAPPY HOLIDAYS OR WHAT EVER YOUR INTO.....PEACE TO ALL:)

[brucereiter]

Just wanted to wish everyone including trolls a MERRY CHRISTMAS & A HAPPY NEW YEAR OR HAPPY HOLIDAYS OR WHAT EVER YOUR INTO.....PEACE TO ALL:)

peace too you and yours too ... merry christmas!

[ShaolinGirl]

You ever see a 79-year-old that had naturally dark hair?
My Korean grandmother was in her 80's and her hair was black. And there's no way she ever dyed her hair.

[Judge Pen]

I don't believe in "feints" in the traditional sense. Every technique and combonation should be thrown so that each technique is intended to land with maximum force; however, you should maintain proper balance and body control so that you can modify a technique midstream into a better technique for the circumstance that your opponent is presenting. Often times I throw a straight punch just to change it into a hook at the last opportunity or a punch is quickly withdrawn into a block so that me second hand in the combonation takes lead. But I always throw the first punch with full intent. Ok, I always *try* to anyway...

[BM2]

My Korean grandmother was in her 80's and her hair was black. And there's no way she ever dyed her hair.


I read that those of Celtic heritage also go grey later as did former President Ronald Reagan.
My Great Uncle was mostly German and retained his black hair, all of it and his teeth into his eighties. On top of that, he was an alocholic, spent time in prison for killing a man in a bar fight over some woman, in the 1920s till somtime in the '30s when prison wasn't as nice as it is now. And never married. Hmmm.... I wonder how much of the later had an influence on how he aged.;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

My favorite technique to open with is the reverse punch/front snap kick (left hand, right foot) combination so prevalent in the short forms and China Hands....or hell, the sparring tech #5, I guess. Sometimes I'll throw the kick, sometimes I'll keep it chambered for a knee trap in case the opponent thinks he can shoot a kick into an opening. Anyway, the threat of the kick is enough to throw a lot of people off guard (they've got to contend with two weapons). These work okay, because I have a lot of options once these attacks have landed (thanks to the short forms/china hands)...

But they're not really that successful against experienced fighters. Like I said...I've got to play it aggressive b/c I'm the attacker (I do like playing that role---I just don't want to become 1-dimensional in my press). The highest martial artists in my school just love to sit back and wait, and I'm not sure I want to have them on the attacking tip....they're just too good.

I'm really just trying to get a pool of ideas I can play around with in order to be a better attacker. My defense is fine. And yeah, I know they're the same thing, ultimately. But real skill comes with time and experience. I guess I'm just asking for tips from experience.

[Lamassu]

Oh I do love sparring!

Sparring is a learning experience, it's your chance to put what you learned in the context of a particular form to practice. Now some things work for some people but not for all. Me, when I spar I decide ahead of time which particular form or animal set I'll incorporate in my strategy, in order to discover the practical applications. This opens me up for receiving hits at times while I'm learning how best to use this particular form, but at least it's in a friendly environment where nothings really at stake except my pride. And since, this is a learning experience, you can ask your sparring partner to slow down a bit while you figure things out. I know this doesn't sound very appealing or macho, but I feel its vital as a learning tool so that what you learn in forms can be used in combat. I've seen too many matches where the two squaring off are upper belt levels that have a lot of different techniques under their belt, but they stick to sparring techniques, or (sometimes...maybe) short forms. What's the point of learning these forms if you're not going to use them? Also, sparring is not fighting, you can't do certain things in sparring that you can do in a real street fight. Your sifu will frown on you breaking your partner's kneecap, but in a real fight that's one of the first targets I go for. Anyway, the bottom line is there is a progression of development in your study of martial arts:

1. learn the form
2. experiment different techniques while sparring (learn first hand their practicality)
3. pick and choose the techniques you like and use in sparring
4. continue to experiment; try to use less favorable techniques to understand them better
5. incorporate more that you learned from past sparring techniques, until you have a wide range you can pick and choose on the fly while sparring.

Repeat this cycle until you have experimented with all that you've learned, the reason why black belts seem so good is because this is how we learn and strive to get better. Remember, when a black belt challenges you in a sparring match, don't look at it as a test or something personal. They're simply interested in how you progress, and if you implement this form of learning in your sparring, then they'll show an interest and even give you the tips and tricks that you're looking for.

Happy sparring!

[BentMonk]

Sparring is a great way to learn. I also think that doing traditional no head contact, medium to heavy body contact "tag" sparring breeds bad habits. It's one thing to acknowledge a shot to your head, it's completely different to take a shot to your head. I'm not saying every sparring match should be full contact. Healing interferes with training. I am saying that learning to be hit should be part of your training. As Muhammad Ali said, "Every body's got a plan, 'til they get hit."

[Lamassu]

full contact sparring is effective, with the proper equipment and between two sparring partners that are familiar with each others technique so as no accidental injuries occur, but keep in mind that sparring is not fighting. Sparring tests reflexes and quick thinking, fighting is pure self preservation. Now getting knocked in the head hurts and people react to it, but keep in mind that punch or kick that makes it through your opponent's defenses, usually leads to a string of attacks or combo's inherint within whatever form you're utilizing, which students rarely follow through with because that initial 'hit' didn't actually affect their opponent, it just breached his/her defenses. This is because the students are sparring; not fighting. In a fight, once that first hit gets through, you shouldn't let up until your opponent is on the ground and doesn't feel like fighting anymore. Whereas, with sparring, if your partner asks you to back off, then you do it, because you're both in a learning environment and not really trying to kill each other (hopefully). Pain is a major factor in fighting of course, and there are methods within the SD system that toughen the body to withstand pummeling, but sparring is not, nor should it ever be, where you learn to take a hit. This could lead to serious injury and worse, litigation.

[BentMonk]

There are different types of sparring. IMO the one that is the most neglected in MA is sparring with hard to mostly full contact. The way boxers spar is the best example. Protection is worn, but you can get knocked out while sparring. This type of sparring enables you to become accustomed to the shock of being hit. It also teaches you self control. IMO the ability to withstand a shot, and keep your focus are two elements that are essential to surviving a fight. The reality is that I have a much greater likelihood of testing my abilities in the ring than I do getting into a fight. I don't go to bars, I don't frequent rough neighborhoods, I keep my mouth shut, and I don't mess with people. I am fairly certain that this will keep me out of most trouble. Still if it doesn't, I'm not going to let the first serious shot to the dome I take come from Bubba 10 years after I start training. I'd rather be at least partially prepared. :D

[John Many Jars]

You two bring up a good point and have peaked my curiosity. I know each school is run differently but what intensity do the SD'ers here spar?

The level of intensity definately goes up the higher the rank at my school but even during gloved sparring I don't think I've seen anybody making more than medium contact. Most of the time it's just the light contact to the body/no contact to the head. Also, the protective equipment and facilities that we use aren't really ideal for full contact, so maybe that's why. =/ Luckily, I have a few friends I can get together with and push the envelope a little.

[brucereiter]

You two bring up a good point and have peaked my curiosity. I know each school is run differently but what intensity do the SD'ers here spar?

The level of intensity definately goes up the higher the rank at my school but even during gloved sparring I don't think I've seen anybody making more than medium contact. Most of the time it's just the light contact to the body/no contact to the head. Also, the protective equipment and facilities that we use aren't really ideal for full contact, so maybe that's why. =/ Luckily, I have a few friends I can get together with and push the envelope a little.

in our school we spar generally at a mutually agreed upon intensity. most of the time it is medium contact to any part of the body. (we try not to damage each others bodies :-) )
with some students who i trust we spar very hard ...

[brucereiter]

I don't go to bars, I don't frequent rough neighborhoods, I keep my mouth shut, and I don't mess with people. I am fairly certain that this will keep me out of most trouble.

wise words to live by ...

[ninthdrunk]

Lamassu,

There's another North Austin SDer in Chicago right now. Lxtruong on the boards here. I'm sure if you were around the north school for the past five years you know him...It's Long. He taught a lot of classes for Master Schaefer. I know he's really busy with law school right now, but you should let him know you're in town so the two of you can get together when time permits.

[Lamassu]

Done and done! :) Long and I have already had some dialogue over being fellow strangers in a strange land. We'll see what happens next year.

As for intense sparring with knockdown blows, I understand (firsthand) and appreciate it's value, but for the sake of a MA school, I wouldn't recommend implementing it into the curriculum. The hardcore sparring I did was with my best friend and sparring partner back in Texas, and we're both black belts, but if lower belts who don't know each other very well, we're to do it, then it would spell disaster for the school since someone will assuredly get hurt, and no one should pay to get their a$$ kicked. Now if a couple of experienced students who are black belts and close friends were to spar like this on their own time outside of the MA school, well it's a free country.

But we digress, the question was what can be told about new opening moves and tactics for sparring in class, and I say start experimenting with what you learn in your forms while you spar with your partner. You'll find yourself open at first, but you'll learn fast enough when and where any particular technique is effective. And you'll be more satisfied with what you've learned when you land some of those hits. ;)

[Judge Pen]

This could lead to serious injury and worse, litigation.

I'm effective at inflicting both.

Serioulsy, most of the sparring at the SD schools I've encounterd is the medium body, light to no contact to the head variety which has its place. Occassionally, we mix it up with heavier contact with the proper gear, but the clinch work and ground techniques are still lacking to some degrees. Of course, my teachers have no issue with me going to where-ever I want to mix it up with other schools in other formats which is a supplement to my sparring training. (Like Oso's school). I get more ground and clinch work there which is a great environment to learn. It's certainly humbling to get tossed like a rag-doll from someone who knows how to cleanly execute a throw and it's also a good litmus test to see how well you land and react to being tossed. I learn something new everytime I cross hands with someone.

[Judge Pen]

But we digress, the question was what can be told about new opening moves and tactics for sparring in class, and I say start experimenting with what you learn in your forms while you spar with your partner. You'll find yourself open at first, but you'll learn fast enough when and where any particular technique is effective. And you'll be more satisfied with what you've learned when you land some of those hits. ;)


Here's a different perspective. Most people get good enough to keep a good cover and not get hit until they start being offensive. Counter-techniques and reactions are key to good sparring. As an opening move throw a good sold technique or combo into their guard. Don't worry about getting through their gurad, but force them to react to you. Make them change their guard or stance and then try to take advantage of the opening it creates. Just don't over-extend yourself in the process. It's like a boxer who works the jab...the point isn't to hit them with every technique, but to keep it in their face and force them to work around it. Eventually it will open up the cross or the hook where the real impact can occur. Try a crisp teep or side kick into their guard and try to frce them to react. Eventually their hands will start to drop and allow you to play off of your kicks.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Serioulsy, most of the sparring at the SD schools I've encounterd is the medium body, light to no contact to the head variety which has its place

That's wierd...CSC ATL doesn't let lower belts (white-green) hit very hard. But when it comes to brown belt, the training is to end a fight asap by getting someone on the ground (sweeps, mostly). I'm not saying anything negative...it's just what all the instructors drill us on. There's plenty of opportunity to hit the head at that level, and one can expect to get hit in the head even by black belts at a good contact level...to give a brownie plenty of time to get used to it.

To be honest, I wouldn't want to train with too many restrictions. Sure, there's no use trying to hurt anyone. But I've learned invaluable lessons about maintaining a guard in all scenarios--on attack, defense, on the move, etc. (especially with regard to the face and head [and groin]). Someone can tell you to always maintain a guard, and you can practice it, but if you don't have to during sparring, you probably won't when you really need to. All stances should negate concerns with those anyways with regard to leg/hand position. I firmly believe tournament training/cheap sparring waters down the essentials in order to cater to what's legal, not what's effective or available.

Or were you talking about tournaments? We don't really have those down here. Seems to be a Do thing exclusively. Not doggin' ya JP, just pointing out geographical differences. I saw your vid of sparring in Asheville 'gainst a "Shaolin" guy. You had him down pretty quick on most of the matches.

PS--he wasn't SHaolin. He was practicing Isshun-Ryu Karate. That arm waving cadence/toe stepping is unmistakable.

[brucereiter]

CSC ATL doesn't let lower belts (white-green) hit very hard.


it is because they are the most dangerous :-) lol ...

i am all for heavy contact sparring as long as there is no anger involved, when somebody starts getting ****ed off and show anger i stop working with them.

i think it is good that it does not get broken up right when it goes to the ground (if that happens) for the most part you want to stay off the ground but if you never go there you will not know what to do when it happens :-)

peace

[Judge Pen]

To be honest, I wouldn't want to train with too many restrictions. Sure, there's no use trying to hurt anyone. But I've learned invaluable lessons about maintaining a guard in all scenarios--on attack, defense, on the move, etc. (especially with regard to the face and head [and groin]). Someone can tell you to always maintain a guard, and you can practice it, but if you don't have to during sparring, you probably won't when you really need to. All stances should negate concerns with those anyways with regard to leg/hand position. I firmly believe tournament training/cheap sparring waters down the essentials in order to cater to what's legal, not what's effective or available.

I couldn't agree with you more about that. I think that the way sparring is taught in most SD schools can lead to bad habits IF that's all that was taught. I do think you should start out lighter and work your way up and that the sparring should always be controlled, but it should be a progression to the point where we are sparring with mor practicality than playing a game of tag.

Or were you talking about tournaments? We don't really have those down here. Seems to be a Do thing exclusively. Not doggin' ya JP, just pointing out geographical differences. I saw your vid of sparring in Asheville 'gainst a "Shaolin" guy. You had him down pretty quick on most of the matches.

That tournament was an open style tournament. I participate in some of the SD tournaments too, when we have them, but I like fighting agasint other people from other styles as it tests what I'm taught versus what else is out there.

PS--he wasn't SHaolin. He was practicing Isshun-Ryu Karate. That arm waving cadence/toe stepping is unmistakable. Yeah, I knew it was soething else, but I wasn't sure what. To be honest, the guy was a tournament guy--probably one who went around and fought in all kinds of tornaments because he liked to fight and he liked to get trophys. He was very fast and very atletic. I watched him measure the ring so he could guage the distance for different techniques before the fights started. He knew what he was doing and he ultimately took first in that tournament.

[tattooedmonk]

Hope you all are doing well . Especially all you new parents. :D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah, I knew it was soething else, but I wasn't sure what. To be honest, the guy was a tournament guy--probably one who went around and fought in all kinds of tornaments because he liked to fight and he liked to get trophys. He was very fast and very atletic. I watched him measure the ring so he could guage the distance for different techniques before the fights started. He knew what he was doing and he ultimately took first in that tournament.

I'll take your word for it. He looked competent enough. That scissors sweep was pretty sweet...I don't think I'd ever go for it, but maybe I just don't practice it enough for mine to be effective.

[Judge Pen]

I'll take your word for it. He looked competent enough. That scissors sweep was pretty sweet...I don't think I'd ever go for it, but maybe I just don't practice it enough for mine to be effective.

Yeah, I didn't see that one coming either. I switched stances to try to bait him into a high technique, but I got something different. Oh well, live and learn.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Alright.....apps time....

Anyone have White Monkey Steals the Peach?

At the beginning of section 2, when you turn and flourish to the right hip,
then step forward with the left foot and flourish.....


I was told this was a sweep. Didn't have it demonstrated, b/c at the time I was just trying to memorize the movements.

Does anyone know how this works? It's unlike anything I've seen so far.

[Golden Tiger]

Anyone have White Monkey Steals the Peach?

At the beginning of section 2, when you turn and flourish to the right hip,
then step forward with the left foot and flourish.....


I was told this was a sweep. Didn't have it demonstrated, b/c at the time I was just trying to memorize the movements.


If you are refering to the: Cross hands, turn 180, move hands to the other side and then step, then step and hit HN5(temple), side chop ST9(neck), slide hit RN17(low midline)...I have never seen those first steps used as sweeps but I am sure if you were able to trap the hands, twist , pull across and step, you could get a sweep out of it.

I do remember the form but each person pulls different things out of it. Hope that helps a bit.

[tattooedmonk]

Alright.....apps time....

Anyone have White Monkey Steals the Peach?

At the beginning of section 2, when you turn and flourish to the right hip,
then step forward with the left foot and flourish.....


I was told this was a sweep. Didn't have it demonstrated, b/c at the time I was just trying to memorize the movements.

Does anyone know how this works? It's unlike anything I've seen so far. Yes this is how master sin explained the moves. It is like BQ said.

[kungfujunky]

im seeing this in a little over a month so i will make sure to ask when i get to that spot

ill keep you posted

[Shaolin Wookie]

Thanks guys...

I'll continue playing with it until I understand it a little better. To GT--yeah, that's the spot exactly. When I asked some of the better guys with mantis, they asked to see my form. I did it. Then they said--keep practicing it before you take the plunge into that particular application.....:o .....

But it is good advice. There's a lot of useful stuff in there, and I haven't had it for very long...and hell, like I found out last week, my backsweeps are gettin' rusty...so I have plenty of other things to worry about....haha...

So I'll just play with it and think about it...

Nothing new.:cool:

[brucereiter]

Shaolin Wookie check your pm's please

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah...about that post. I got rid of it after I cooled down a bit.


I thought it would spark a conversation, but I was sure it would turn into bickering.

For those who didn't see it: I just flared up after an assistant internal arts instructor told me how "ineffective" the forceful techs of the external program were against his "superior" internal techs. It kind of got me ****ed, b/c he crossed the line in decency. I rarely talk about one being better than the other (I do both). They're mutually reinforcing. I can't imagine one without the other. But he slipped in his little underhanded slight with the intent of ****ing me off, b/c I was practicing my Double Dagger form before class and he was going to help teach the Yin/Yang dagger form (which I love). He then starts pointing out (unasked, interrupting me) that certain movements were "unsophisticated"......(well, I kind of wanted to show them how unsophisticated they could be). I asked him why. He said, basically, "nah, nah nah, nah nah, nah," with a real smug smile on his face. Didn't offer any criticism. Just said...."they're unsophisticated." Well, I'm pretty good at that form. I understand it, and I love it. I'll always be open to tips and apps....but to come up and say: "That's sooo unsophisticated.....?" That'll strike a nerve real quick.

I didn't say anything. I usually don't. I just stifle my outrage and smile, and then I bowed. But I was waiting, all class, to take a verbal shot at him.....which I am glad that I didn't.

I usually don't lose my cool. It's almost impossible to even break my cool.
Drama just slides right off me, man. I just loathe overweening pride, however. But anyway, he started talking about how if he was ever in a knife fight, he'd just do these three little slashes. I asked: "Well, how are you going to set them up? And does the other guy have a knife?" He said it didn't matter.

At that point, I knew he was just talking out of his ass. So in my post I kind of ragged on that attitude. There's a difference between internal development and cultivation and actual battle applications--especially with the Yin/Yang form. It can be useful--but when studied in the proper vein (of knifefighting in general). I got the feeling he hadn't tapped into that yet. So I suggested something. He shot it down, flat out. Said no. I said, "well sure, you might get your knife into position, and you might clear one arm out of the way, but what about his other hand." He said: "well, if I cut him, he won't throw it." I said: "Are you willing to risk it? You should watch that other hand....what if he's got a knife....or he knocks you out with a punch after you stab him, and then he slits your throat after he gets you onto the pavement?" Then I demonstrated how I might go about sliding past a guard (with external techniques), knife or no, and he stopped me. I was just trying to help--thought it would help us all learn a thing or two. He put a damper on it without even listening. And this was the experimental part of class we call "Applications."

I mean, if that's not the time to experiment, when is?

I knew, from previous push hands (at which I admittedly suck), that I could have thrown an "unsophisticated" punch at him and knocked him out cold. That's just a fact. I'm not boasting. Just an evaluation of speed, etc....and I'm really **** fast (it's my saving grace).

Normally, I don't get into these gripes with pride. But hell....like I said in my post:
"I know I'm not God....but neither are you."

That's actually been my first interaction with someone at SD (in the past couple of years) that I would actually label "unpleasant."

But for SDiscool and anyone else who saw the post--I'm sure you can understand why I deleted it. First I edited it. BUt then I saw how whiny and pathetic it was, so I dropkicked it into low orbit.

I vented my anger, cooled off. Damage done. So I deleted it. No biggie.

I'll take his class again, try to explain how we ought to share (the next time he stops me) and hopefully we'll all get along. We always do anyway.

I just thought it might be a lesson for all to learn.

[brucereiter]

Yeah...about that post. I got rid of it after I cooled down a bit.


I thought it would spark a conversation, but I was sure it would turn into bickering.

For those who didn't see it: I just flared up after an assistant internal arts instructor told me how "ineffective" the forceful techs of the external program were against his "superior" internal techs. It kind of got me ****ed, b/c he crossed the line in decency. I rarely talk about one being better than the other (I do both). They're mutually reinforcing. I can't imagine one without the other. But he slipped in his little underhanded slight with the intent of ****ing me off, b/c I was practicing my Double Dagger form before class and he was going to help teach the Yin/Yang dagger form (which I love). He then starts pointing out (unasked, interrupting me) that certain movements were "unsophisticated"......(well, I kind of wanted to show them how unsophisticated they could be). I asked him why. He said, basically, "nah, nah nah, nah nah, nah," with a real smug smile on his face. Didn't offer any criticism. Just said...."they're unsophisticated." Well, I'm pretty good at that form. I understand it, and I love it. I'll always be open to tips and apps....but to come up and say: "That's sooo unsophisticated.....?" That'll strike a nerve real quick.

I didn't say anything. I usually don't. I just stifle my outrage and smile, and then I bowed. But I was waiting, all class, to take a verbal shot at him.....which I am glad that I didn't.

I usually don't lose my cool. It's almost impossible to even break my cool.
Drama just slides right off me, man. I just loathe overweening pride, however. But anyway, he started talking about how if he was ever in a knife fight, he'd just do these three little slashes. I asked: "Well, how are you going to set them up? And does the other guy have a knife?" He said it didn't matter.

At that point, I knew he was just talking out of his ass. So in my post I kind of ragged on that attitude. There's a difference between internal development and cultivation and actual battle applications--especially with the Yin/Yang form. It can be useful--but when studied in the proper vein (of knifefighting in general). I got the feeling he hadn't tapped into that yet. So I suggested something. He shot it down, flat out. Said no. I said, "well sure, you might get your knife into position, and you might clear one arm out of the way, but what about his other hand." He said: "well, if I cut him, he won't throw it." I said: "Are you willing to risk it? You should watch that other hand....what if he's got a knife....or he knocks you out with a punch after you stab him, and then he slits your throat after he gets you onto the pavement?" Then I demonstrated how I might go about sliding past a guard (with external techniques), knife or no, and he stopped me. I was just trying to help--thought it would help us all learn a thing or two. He put a damper on it without even listening. And this was the experimental part of class we call "Applications."

I mean, if that's not the time to experiment, when is?

I knew, from previous push hands (at which I admittedly suck), that I could have thrown an "unsophisticated" punch at him and knocked him out cold. That's just a fact. I'm not boasting. Just an evaluation of speed, etc....and I'm really **** fast (it's my saving grace).

Normally, I don't get into these gripes with pride. But hell....like I said in my post:
"I know I'm not God....but neither are you."

That's actually been my first interaction with someone at SD (in the past couple of years) that I would actually label "unpleasant."

But for SDiscool and anyone else who saw the post--I'm sure you can understand why I deleted it. First I edited it. BUt then I saw how whiny and pathetic it was, so I dropkicked it into low orbit.

I vented my anger, cooled off. Damage done. So I deleted it. No biggie.

I'll take his class again, try to explain how we ought to share (the next time he stops me) and hopefully we'll all get along. We always do anyway.

I just thought it might be a lesson for all to learn.

hi sw,

i like your explanation ... you gave a very honest reply. sometimes it can be difficult to deal with peoples egos but this is one of the many lessons we can learn from practicing martial arts.

the assistant teacher in question (i know who you are talking about, i think :-) ) i am sure has good intentions even if he may have expressed the poorly take what ever you can of value from him and remember that we are all still just students forever. when we stop being a student maybe it is time to quit.

i think a better way for him to have expressed his opinion to you might be for example:
i see you are performing "xyz" like this ... well, let me show you my take on that and how i use that ... after sharing your ideas he might say "cool now go and play with that and see what you come up with maybe it will help you with "xyz"

he could have chosen better words than "that is unsophisticated" ... it might suck hearing that but their might also be value in it. to be able to obtain the value you can not listen with your ego as it will get in the way.

remarkably i have learned some very valuable lessons from people who have pretty low skill. every now and then a "moron" has good insight ... no ego no ego and no ego ..... . . . .... . . .....

no need to post an answer to these questions just ponder them.
what did you learn about yourself from this situation?
what did you learn about the other person from this situation?
what value did your anger and frustration have?

my invitation is alway open ...

best,

b

[Shaolin Wookie]

every now and then a "moron" has good insight

Hahaha.....the very words I live by....:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Live and learn...I guess I'll just play it cool.

It was actually just a high ranking student helping to teach an oversized class. Not really an official assistant instructor. I think you're referring to a certain bald-headed third-degree (or fourth, maybe) sash, SDiscool, but naw, that's not him.

That guy has always been straight-up with me.

[John Many Jars]

I'm just a little curious as to what he meant by "unsophisticated". Too direct and to the point (so to speak)? Did he mean elegant? =/

Maybe you were doing the moves at the wrong time of day. Next time wait for High Tea and keep that pinky high.

It seems to me that knife fighting is a pretty dirty business and anything you can do to get out of the situation alive should be appreciated. But then again I've never been described as a sophisticated person so what do I know.

Hearing you talk about the forms kind of makes me wish I hadn't passed on seeing them. Maybe next time.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Anyways.....new topic:


I read this article...forget where:mad: ...about an SD cat who fought in some heavyweight tournaments in the eighties or something. He was a personal student of GM The, and was apparently a good fighter. The article said he knocked out some dude with a flip kick to take the title, and something about meeting/taking a punch from a big-time boxer (again, I forget who....). If I find a link to it, I'll post it.

But here's the meat:

When I joined up, I was told not to enter any tournaments. I had no intention to, and still don't---not why I'm here.

But if SD could turn out a fantastic fighter (w/ GM S.The's supervision, no less), why would our schools prevent it? They didn't before......why now? I know that's not what we're about...but....

Seems wierd to me. Don't know why......just does.

Who knows? Maybe someday when I get better I'll want to enter a tournament...in the spirit of learning. Tournament fighting does have some upsides. It's not all negative....

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm just a little curious as to what he meant by "unsophisticated". Too direct and to the point (so to speak)? Did he mean elegant?


It seems to me that knife fighting is a pretty dirty business and anything you can do to get out of the situation alive should be appreciated.

I'm not sure what he meant....but when coupled with a smug smile and a condescending tone....I think I knew exactly what he meant:

"Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah...."in a child's schoolyard lingo.

The form itself is actually pretty fluid and elegant, getting from A to B, that is. But the actual cuts/apps are really small motions, except when used in combination (such as 'Giant Python Flips the Body', where you throat slash during a 180 jump, land, stab into the gut with both knives in a 1-2-fashion, then dropstep in order to gut and disembowel)--but even then, the elegance is quick and small [ie, its a quick small jump/turn without covering much distance).

The Yin/Yang dagger form is very elegant, I believe. It's all about coordination. But you show me a Yin/Yang dagger expert who could peform "Giant Python Flips the Body" on the first try with good placement and balance......and I'll shut up. I was ****ed that someone could be soooooo closeminded to think that external guys/forms were unsophisticated/brutish. We all learn from Masters taught by GM The......and I don't know anyone with any SD acumen that would make that charge about hte guy who originated the arts.

I thought it was a poor show of logic in general. He was indicting GM The in the process........

But the point is this.....learning the form will not, in itself, teach knifefighting. I've taken a couple of knifefighting seminars elsewhere, and sat in on part of a lecture given in Marietta last year before the form was taught.........

There's a lot to think about. You have to be all-aware, because you can't trade blows. You have to get the first cut the first time, in the right place, at the right time. Stabbing someone won't end the fight. Most people don't even notice they've been cut until hte end of a squabble.

Knifefighting is pretty unsophisticated in general.....and deadly. Throw a punch at a knifefighter, and expect to have your wrist cut. Game over.......

Hell, it might be unsophisticated. But it is incredibly economical.

[Judge Pen]

As far as I know, there is "SD ban" on fighting in tournaments. Personally I would be suspect of a teacher that said that from the off-set--I'm not saying this is the reason that your teacher said no tournaments--, but I would always be suspect that the real reason--wrapped up in some fortune cookie explanation--is that they are afraid that their students will not do well and it would hurt their reputation and their bottom line.

My teachers have never had an issue with me seeking open competition--I've never taken first, but I've always represented them and myself well. Wgat's wrong with that?

[brucereiter]

As far as I know, there is "SD ban" on fighting in tournaments. Personally I would be suspect of a teacher that said that from the off-set--I'm not saying this is the reason that your teacher said no tournaments--, but I would always be suspect that the real reason--wrapped up in some fortune cookie explanation--is that they are afraid that their students will not do well and it would hurt their reputation and their bottom line.

My teachers have never had an issue with me seeking open competition--I've never taken first, but I've always represented them and myself well. Wgat's wrong with that?

hi jp,

hope all is well with the baby/family :-)

as a teacher here in atlanta i have never heard of there being a ban on fighting in tournaments. i also dont know any students here who do that type of training, but there are several who i think would do really well. i would love to see someone go to a tournament and compete (as jp did) if i heard of a student wanting to i would offer them encouragement ...

best,

b

[Zen Archer]

Hello again, all. It's good to see some intelligent discourse on this thread. Hope you all had wonderful holiday times with your families. I have a response to the question regarding us participating in tourneys. As far as I know, it is discouraged, but not banned. I have personal experience of people from the CSC Denver school competing in tourneys. Back in the 90's we had a 5th sash black who was the most formidable fighter in the school by most accounts. I myself personally had a couple of bloody sparring matches with him as a brown belt. A good friend of mine who was also a brown at the time did the same. This 5th black did participate in some tourneys in the mid-90's. They were somewhat point based with a lot of rules of things not allowable. He did not win the top title of tourneys I saw due to lack of points, and lack of executing impressive technique. However he was very obviously not hurt or even rocked by any technique executed against him even though they resulted in points and wins for his opponent. He is no longer with the school, and some said he had a bad attitude ( my fellow brown and close friend was one ). Personally I liked the guy, and he was always completely honorable and helpful with me. Though our matches could be a little brutal, I learned a lot from him, about myself especially. :cool:

[kwaichang]

I competed in tournaments from 1975 - 1984. The tournaments of today are far different than those of that time. I competed again in 2000 and 2002 but was not as successful. I had trained with alot of contact for many of those years and realize that Tourneys are not a realistic way of competing , too many rules. As far as the "do not compete in others tournaments I was told not to but said if I did no big deal. I think it was due primarily to the concept that you should fight as you train and many of the techniques taught in SD are not allowed or applicable in tournaments. Example how many people use a Tiger or white crane technique purely ?? KC

[Zen Archer]

I agree with you, Kwaichang. One of the main reasons tournament fighting is discouraged is that by training to fight within a rules system for a large percentage of your training time spent you may become somewhat conditioned to not using some of your most effective techniques. Since my #1 practical and physical goal in training is for the ability to deal effectively with real life bad situations directed toward myself or my family, I would hate to condition myself into not using what is most immediately effective for me in those situations. I believe that the individual I referred to suffered from two problems in those contests. One, I believe, was actually stage fright from performing in front of a large crowd, in other words not being comfortable in that type of environment. The other, by my personal opinion, was the issue of not being able to use many techniques integral to our art. This is not an excuse, but my opinion on why he did not fare so well. By the same token, in most sparring within schools or in most competitions of today, even so-called NHB events there are rules. In reality, if someone is going to train for competetition they should be able to adjust their style to reflect the given rules and still remain somewhat effective. There may be some truth in the statement that it might reflect on the school badly if someone did not fare well in tourneys as for a reason why they are discouraged. However, when our student competed I know almost everyone in the school including the masters were there to give support and to observe this person compete. In a "real" test of martial skill there are absolutely no rules, this is the only true way of testing whether x person from style a is a superior fighter to y fighter from style b. As far as tournament fighting today I haven't seen a huge amount of events recently, but I don't see competing as being necessarily a negative thing. Personally, if I were to compete I would prefer to compete in a variety of organizations and rule systems so as to cultivate the ability to adapt and incorporate or remove various aspects of my fighting style based on the given situation, at will. This, to me, would be positive and would create in me a fighter that would easily add technique back to his fighting style in a hairy situation if needed to defend effectively.

[Zen Archer]

One more thing one a different subject. I have been doing some research on TCMA and Shaolin versus other styles of martial art. Maybe I can get some of my "favorite" posters up in arms again, while being like Shiva and destroying ignorance. One of the main points of argument on many different threads has been how various martial arts stack up. One that really made me laugh (search realfighting on yahoo) rated shaolin last in a list of ten martial arts as being effective for defense. All you fellow Shaolin: these "experts" ranked us below karate, judo, muay thai, jujitsu, & boxing in effectiveness for self defense. They as well as many other individuals indicate there is no ground defense in Shaolin as well as many other untruths. Aside from the fact there is much ground technique in many of our different styles, we have a seminar once or twice a year devoted solely to learning and practicing application of ground technique. This is just an example of misinformation. I digress, back to my point. The point is this: it is commonly known in (Eastern) Chinese martial arts circles including true Shaolin that effective defense comprises proficiency in four areas. Ti or kicking, Da or punching, Shuai or wrestling, & Na or Qin Na also known as to seize and to hold. This would also encompass jujitsu etc. A complete fighter must posess ability in all areas for street defense or the ancient art of Lei Tai ( real no holds barred fighting). Wrestling in ancient China and other places was developed as a defense against kicking and punching, and for this reason very few kick-and-punch only practitioners do well a against a wrestler at the same level of skill. Qin Na was developed as defense against wrestlers, hence the success of pure Qin Na stylists (or Jujitsu) against many wrestlers of similar skill. And for the last one that is sure to get some egotistical response from Gracie fighters and other jujitsu fans: Kicking and punching is the best defense against Qin Na or Jujitsu. Before you argue that one better go back and look at some of the 60 or so UFC. You will find that many of the people who defeated primarily Jujitsu style fighters, while maybe having a little knowledge of Jujitsu and it's counters, were in fact expert strikers! Is Shaolin-Do for real? Well, I'll tell you this: anyone highly proficient at kicking and punching will do very well against jujitsu practoners by the application of a single and very simple strategy: don't let them grab you and punish them every time they try to do so, which has been demonstrated in UFC and other NHB events. When I say highly proficient kickers and punchersI would specifically refer to Shaolin at the top of their game, just to be clear. One of the problems with this comparison is that someone who is truly at a high level in Shaolin should have destroyed the ego or be close to that goal, and may see no need to compete or engage in combat, thus the endless criticisms from all about it's not real. Maybe I should train for these events, since I have a long way to go in my spiritual development and destruction of the ego. :D I HAVE been describrd on this forum as pompous. That would be quite a riot to see a forty something (old) Shaolin pounding some NHB fighters in the ring, wouldn't it? Rest assured, if I were to do it I would have proficiency in all four areas mentioned! If I can come up with a way to feel like I'm not going backward in my spiritual development by doing this, you may all see me in the Octagon at 45.:D

[jigahus]

There are only 3 things constant in life. Death, taxes, and this freakin Shaolin-Do thread.

[Golden Tiger]

When I joined up, I was told not to enter any tournaments. I had no intention to, and still don't---not why I'm here.


To the best of my knowledge, there is not and never was a ban on entering outside tournaments. I have many friends that came out of the Lexington gym, back when Master Sin taught there (even back at the Sports Center with Master Hiang) that fought in just about everyone that was within driving distance.

It might not have ever been encouraged for what ever reason, but we trained in the gym with Master Sin watching many nights for open matches.

I kind of agree with JP's take on it but we (Lex) have never worried if we were going to do good or bad, we just liked to fight.

[Judge Pen]

hi jp,

hope all is well with the baby/family :-)

as a teacher here in atlanta i have never heard of there being a ban on fighting in tournaments. i also dont know any students here who do that type of training, but there are several who i think would do really well. i would love to see someone go to a tournament and compete (as jp did) if i heard of a student wanting to i would offer them encouragement ...

best,

b

Hey b, I didn't think there was a ban down there, but I've heard people say "my teacher won't let us compete in an open style tournament" and that always galls me. Tournament competition is what it is, but you can learn a lot about yourself in the process.

As far as the limitations of tournaments on ones effective technique, well that's a topic that's will be debated long after this SD thread has died--I'll say this--any controled environment will have certain rules for safety (they have to) and that will put some degree of hinderance on the technique one can use, but in order to train the live elements that would allow one the timing and the composure to employ an unlimited technique you have to be able to work agasint a resisting opponent and sparring, tournament or otherwise, is one of the best ways to cultivate those skills. Today, more than ever, there are venues that allow for more variety in technique that at least make the sparring more realistic then the point-sparring tournaments that we've all seen. Its a tool to your personal advancement, nothing more.

Zen Archer, I liked what you said "someone who is truly at a high level in Shaolin should have destroyed the ego or be close to that goal, and may see no need to compete or engage in combat" and I agree with that. I think that the competition is in myself and with my ego--can I overcome my ego and still have the desire to push myslef to become better? Can I overcome pride in winning and resentment in losing? I can sit at home and think that I can while pondering my belly-button, but until I put myself out there my beliefs remain unchallenged and untested.

[Shaolin Wookie]

One that really made me laugh (search realfighting on yahoo) rated shaolin last in a list of ten martial arts as being effective for defense. All you fellow Shaolin: these "experts" ranked us below karate, judo, muay thai, jujitsu, & boxing in effectiveness for self defense.

Haha....yeah. I love those comparisons. As if there weren't variations in karate, judo, muay thai, jujitsu, or boxing. I disregard those rankings as soon as I see 'em. Lumps everything into a convenient package.....little regard to internal variation. Hell, I know a lifetime TKD'er who can kick a little ass now and again:D . And I still don't know of anyone, in any martial art, who would have wanted to face Tyson in his prime.

Ti or kicking, Da or punching, Shuai or wrestling, & Na or Qin Na also known as to seize and to hold. This would also encompass jujitsu etc. A complete fighter must posess ability in all areas for street defense or the ancient art of Lei Tai ( real no holds barred fighting).

If there's one gripe I have with SD, it's that chin-na are often taught as escape maneuvers, rather than offensive maneuvers. Yeah, they might be elementary at first (a la the 30 that newbies learn).....but even those can get something going and throw off the pace of a fight. CMA guys seem to shun excessive grabbing--for a reason, true. But sometimes it can be your best friend...depending on the scenario. And if you know how to grab, you often learn how to defend against a grab twice as effectively...not to mention that if you don't practice it, you'll be all the more susceptible to it......ah....a lesson for push hands....;)my weakest skill



And for the last one that is sure to get some egotistical response from Gracie fighters and other jujitsu fans: Kicking and punching is the best defense against Qin Na or Jujitsu.


I believe MK once refuted the statement that ground fighters/bjj fighters had an almost perfect record in full contact tournaments by saying (paraphrased): "That's impossible. Only one ground fighter can win a match. So BJJ has a 50% win record, at best, against other ground fighters....." [only, he said it better, and I'm sure he'd agree]:cool:


Anyways...about the tournaments. Interesting perspectives. I was told that tourneys were pretty much taboo when I entered. I even remember the words "kicked out" appearing in their context. But I think the sifu in question simply meant "without my consent." Maybe it's a way to make sure only students with the right mentality/skill should represent his reputation in a public forum (not an online one, thank god, or I'm sure I'd be in some heat:o:D ).

Although right now I have no intention of really being a "tournament guy", it mmight be fun every once in a while testing out my skills against other styles. I always hear tell of sparring groups open to the general public, but I'm never around for it----although, sooner or later I'm gonna have to sneak into one of SDiscool's sparring sessions to check it out.:D

Soon as my danged schedule gets hammered out. Got passed up for the job that would have done it for me.....****......

But hell, if they want second best, they can take it.:p

[ironcu]

Mr. Ching, Gene

I noticed you have removed both of mine postings

1. need an honest answer
2. in search for knowledge

Your reasons was that I posted my ads in every forum. Maybe that's the rule that I didn't know about or did not read about. My reasons doing that was because I thought every forum is different and that in order for people to see my ad I must post my ad in every forum. If the rule is not to post the same ad in every forum that's fine with me however I disagree. I think my ads are very reasonable and deserve attention from all the members in the martial art community and all serious martial artists. My ads are intended for education purposes only because I am serious about learning and I have no other intention besides learning. If I may ask you to place my ads back in any forum you choose to so others can view and respond to. Thanks you for your time!

sincerely,
Ironcu.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Plus....if I've never been in a tournament....how could I really criticize? I've heard both good and bad extolled. Maybe it does help one mature---and maybe it would make me a better, more appreciative MA?

Who knows?

Or maybe I'd just drop some money on a worthless experience.....not that that hasn't happened before.....I actually paid to go see Snakes on a Plane with my girlfriend....:o (as a joke though....):D

But for right now....I've got plenty on my plate already. That can wait until another day....when I'm much better than I am now. Sparring top-notch SD'ers is a trip in itself. And any time an Atlanta CSC teacher says something to me, and it just clarifies the obvious (which I obviously missed:o ), I know just how far I am from understanding what's in front of me. Keeps me humble and honest (when I'm not getting fed up and venting on this forum...hahaha).

Anyway, thanks for the input.

Maybe you guys could answer another question:

What's with the break between SDA and CSC? I hope I'm not stirring up bad blood, and I know there's some differences in the way we study....and even in some of the forms.....

If it's not too touchy/personal a subject, might be interesting to know. I hear both sides talk (mostly, people are indifferent and think it's unfair to divide them up), but I wonder how it came to be that there are two sides....:confused:

I heard that if I went to an SDA school, my CSC belt ranking wouldn't transfer with me. I can understand that (to a certain degree), but it seems a little wierd.

There's two different camps writing the same history. I've just been wondering why.....:confused:

[Shaolin Wookie]

As an afterthought.........

Don't think b/c there isn't much talk of tournaments that we don't have good fighters in ATL. I've seen the best fighters in my life studying the Do (Tao...whatever) here in the dirty south.

Funny how SD and good fighting reputations seem to follow each other around, even on this forum, when we're the group on the "fringe"....:D :D ;) :cool:

[Shaolin Wookie]

I appreciate that, and I'll keep it confidential. I've heard good things about SD even from my CSC instructors. My sifu says they're the same thing, but there's this screen of fog about why they're different.

As for cordialty---I've never gotten an ill vibe from any SD guys---'specially y'all. Same with CSC.....that's why I figured it was politics. And if GM Sin can see past it, I don't see why any of us can't.

You know?

[brucereiter]

I will tell you that all students of GMS (SD or CSC) are welcome anytime at the Lex. school to work out or what ever....but I would advise you to not let anybody on your end find out if you decide to visit:)
BQ

and any student of gmt is welcome to come train in atlanta :-)

i dont think there is a problem in visiting other schools and would not be concerned about "letting anybody on your end" know :-) ...

best,

b

[brucereiter]

I always hear tell of sparring groups open to the general public, but I'm never around for it----although, sooner or later I'm gonna have to sneak into one of SDiscool's sparring sessions to check it out.

i am waiting :-) lol ...

[John Many Jars]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the rift between SD and CSC was between the east and west schools. I didn't think there was any issue between SD and Master Groom's schools.

I asked the masters about visiting some SD schools a couple of years ago and they seemed fine with it. We've also had a few SD'ers stop in to train. It was cool seeing some of the different movements and applications from the forms.

Here's a question. Has anybody seen chin na 31 and up?


Zen Archer wrote:

They as well as many other individuals indicate there is no ground defense in Shaolin as well as many other untruths. Aside from the fact there is much ground technique in many of our different styles, we have a seminar once or twice a year devoted solely to learning and practicing application of ground technique.

Are you talking about being able to defend yourself from the ground (wrestling) , taking people to the ground (sweeps/throws) or avoiding being taken to the ground?

By my definition, I don't qualify what we learn in those festivals as "ground defenses". Maybe sweeping or kicking somebody from the ground could count but that's about it. In my short time in the art I've basically learned how to take people to the ground (sweeps), if I'm on the ground, how to attack a standing person w/ sweeps and kicks and some ways to try to avoid being taken to the ground (chin na, striking, foot work, etc.) but as far as handling myself if an attacker already has me on the ground, not much. Maybe some holds and strikes. Definately, no wrestling of any kind. =/

[kungfujunky]

been awhile!

as for the rift...there was an email from gmt to stop it or get out basically lol

so i think that one is done

as for belt transferring...i can see why they wouldnt straight transfer the rank since there are subtle differences in every school.

but in my opinion i think they should let you transfer it..just repass the material for your new instructor

as for ground techniques i have learned a lot! in watching ufc i see instance after instance where a ground technique we/i have learned would have ended the match.


so yes we get a very good background on holds sweeps takedowns and what to do when your on the ground.

hey bq how you been man?

[Shaolin Wookie]

It seems to me that the whole issue of ground defense and its "groundedness" revolves around the mentality of the teacher. For instance, in Atlanta, I've heard Senior Master Grooms repeatedly state that he will do anything he can to stay on his feet and avoid going to the ground (and I believe it--he kicks and punches like lightning!). From the couple of times I've trained in Marietta, I got plenty of groundwork--Master Reid's takedown seminars focus more on the wrestling aspect than other ATL CSC groups (mounts, locks, holds, etc.). There are major differences in takedowns depending on the teacher. But for the most part, most of them focus on stand-up takedowns and throws.

[BoulderDawg]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the rift between SD and CSC was between the east and west schools. I didn't think there was any issue between SD and Master Groom's schools.

I'm a little confused here. I know Master G studied under Master's David and Sharon. So aren't the southern schools at least associated with the Chinese Shaolin Center?

In any case I do sense some tension between SD and CSC. For example on the CSC website they show GMT's schedule. However it only covers the events at the CSC schools and no mention of SD. Also if you go over to the SD website there is no mention of CSC or a list of their Masters.

Should there not be general information about the art on both sites?

By the way props goes to the Atlanta School for having a complete list of Masters from all branches of the art.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hey BDAWG.....

I got the skinny from several peeps on both sides. It's nothing. All the schools are related.....but some ego-tripping, etc. caused several divisions.

I think all we need to know is that GM Sin The is the Grandmaster.

That should probably suffice. If any of my teachers said--hey, I don't like how they do this at this or that school.....or hey, I don't like how this guy teaches at this or that school....or hey, I don't like the rank advancement standards at this or that school.......I'd probably just chalk it up as a personal thing, and something I don't have to agree with.....and probably shouldn't.

I say let sleeping dogs lie. It's really nothing to yunguns like you or I.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Do any of you guys ever experiment with the forms?

For instance: When I run through Sea-Dragon Cane, I kind of get the picture of Sun WuKong in my head, and use it to enhance the form--since it's a tale taken from the Hsi Yu Chi. I don't make monkey sounds or scratch, but I stress the monkey aspects of it (and in the story, he's quite prideful and angry when he's thrashing through the dragon's underwater temple--so I mimic it a little with certain rhythms). It's not "marketed" as a monkey form....but its monkey overtones are readily apparent (360's, circular strikes, quick footwork). Some people have commented that they think I get into the spirit of animal forms better than others. That's always been my focus---besides striking hard/properly.

I hear people say "get into the spirit" all the time......but I rarely see that performance aspect in their forms. But the one's I see do this are usually the best.

I suppose what I'm driving at is this: "Getting into the spirit", from what I've seen on a large part in SD, is usually akin to....I'm doing tiger, so I'll just make a flurry of motion and hope it looks fierce, and hit hard, maybe even harder/off balance.....not, the tiger is powerful and graceful, and always in perfect balance and sync, so therefore I'll get the most power out of a fluid motion (with very deep stances)....not a flurry of motion.

I'm still a rookie by most accounts (KFM, and otherwise...what a bad pun):D .....just wondering which approach is better, in the long run.

Someone told me a while back that I shouldn't perform my forms, or else they lose their meaning. I think anyone who has ever met me in my school would say I extract more meaning/applications out of them than they thought possible....and I know I've barely scratched the surface. But as I get these applications/meanings, I tend to "perform" the form even more. For instance....during a form, I'll often pause at a particular stance (i.e. during Luo Tien, at the end of the second section, you fold arms, unwind, then kind of do a low clearing motion with a bird beak [as in clearing a kick] while guarding high with the right hand--same as in Interconnecting Fist near the beginning]). I do something like this in every form, sometimes several times, but I still stress hard/realistic strikes and technically sound stances. I feel that every form has certain internal "markers" at which one should pause, maybe even reflect, on the motions before and the motions after. It gives a form a rhythm. Not a long pause, but what one critic of my form once called "posing". He said it looked good, and I was striking hard....but I posed once or twice in each form.

Is that really so bad? When you hit a seven star stance, or a tiger bow/cat, etc. in the middle of a form, I think you ought to pause--for a second, maybe. Those are the kinds of markers that distinguish a form, IMHO.

Lots of people just hurry through them without any rhythm, and it looks sloppy. Might be good for cardio, but it doesn't really teach 'em much. Consequently, they wind up kickboxing and never using hte material.

I'm pretty good a sparring in each style I've learned (even at my lowly level in the big scheme of things). Might sound like I'm getting a big head here, but trust me, I'm not. I'm just looking for tips from experienced guys.

I'm not talking wushu-like performance....but in a way, my forms attain a cosmetic appeal. I actually think it's made me better as an MA. Concentrating on rhythm and fluidity has given me insights into power generation. And sometimes the snappiness of a form isn't its strength. Mantis forms are generally snappy, from what I've seen. But crane forms are fluid, golden tigers are fluid, drunken are fluid....etc....etc....etc....

I've had limited exposure to him in my 2 years.....would you say GM The "performs" his forms? I thought he did in 1 or 2 that I've seen....but he was teaching them at the time, so it was hard to tell.

Anyone have an opinion? Any advice for a dedicated student?

[Lokhopkuen]

I agree with you, Kwaichang. One of the main reasons tournament fighting is discouraged is that by training to fight within a rules system for a large percentage of your training time spent you may become somewhat conditioned to not using some of your most effective techniques. .

I have never once been to a "controlled contact" tournament that was anything less than full contact. One of the sad things in this country is people attempting to injure others under the guise of sportsmanship. However if you are training to be a FIGHTER becoming conditioned should not even be an issue as ANY fighting experience is Good experience 'if' you are training to become a FIGHTER. Martial art practice is about learning to control SELF. Once you can effectively do this controlling others is a piece of cake.


Train on Shaolin Do Dudes

[kwaichang]

Your post is confusing , the purpose of controlled contact is so no one is hurt if the tourneys you went to ended up being full contact then they did not understand what was meant by control.
One of my first teachers explained it to me like this " If you punch at the chest and hit the spot you want to, that is one kind of control, at that point you may choose the depth you want the technique to go to the skin, below the skin , past the muscle, to the organs or through the body" Control means using enough force for the situation and no more . I agree with you about controlling self etc. KC

[kungfujunky]

I'm a little confused here. I know Master G studied under Master's David and Sharon. So aren't the southern schools at least associated with the Chinese Shaolin Center?

In any case I do sense some tension between SD and CSC. For example on the CSC website they show GMT's schedule. However it only covers the events at the CSC schools and no mention of SD. Also if you go over to the SD website there is no mention of CSC or a list of their Masters.

Should there not be general information about the art on both sites?

By the way props goes to the Atlanta School for having a complete list of Masters from all branches of the art.

no master grooms runs his own branch.

i agree the websites should have some universal love to them. in time it will come.

[NJM]

Why is it called Shaolin-Do?

[Lokhopkuen]

Your post is confusing , the purpose of controlled contact is so no one is hurt if the tourneys you went to ended up being full contact then they did not understand what was meant by control.
One of my first teachers explained it to me like this " If you punch at the chest and hit the spot you want to, that is one kind of control, at that point you may choose the depth you want the technique to go to the skin, below the skin , past the muscle, to the organs or through the body" Control means using enough force for the situation and no more . I agree with you about controlling self etc. KC

What are you confused about? I have watched this phenomenon unfold at various sports contests all over the US. It is shameful when someone attempts to commit harm with malice under the guise of sportsmanship don't you think?

My point was someone mentioned light contact sparring was discouraged amongst the SD community because it might build some impulse to hesitate at a time lethal action was called for. I disagree a little more than I'd agree.

If one is in control of one's self then impulse dose not have a place. Unified mind, body, spirit equals on the fly conscious selection. Self control is the root of the gung fu practice. I appreciate the depth of thought in your explanation.

What I was attempting to explain with my comment was n short any type of combat experience is good experience just don't be fooled thinking the other fellow is interested in the rules.

Watch for the cheap shot even at a friendly weekend tourney.

[kwaichang]

Cool OK I see, KC:o

[Shaolin Wookie]

Why is it called Shaolin-Do?

ARHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

:D Must be new to the forum.

It's a chinese influenced martial art that "grew up" in Indonesia when it was occupied by Japan. Our great grandmaster (not a monk, but a student of a former martial monk) was teaching this "chinese" art while in exile b/c of the cultural revolution. Well, as the story goes, the Japanese didn't like Chinese "shaolin" being taught there, because it looked like it might stir up some seeds of revolution (a fear of every ruler since its inception--hence the Ming "sun and moon" trademark shaolin bow--read any history for further elucidation). So GM Ie Chang Ming adopted the use of a gi and started teaching his shaolin as a "pseudo-japanese" art under the name of Chung Yen Northern Shaolin. When GM The came to America in the early sixties to attend Univ. of Kentucky, he started a school called "Sin The's Shaolin Karate-Do." He used karate because that's what people called martial arts back then. TKD was karate. Kung-fu was karate. Muay Thai was karate. Well, eventually the school got several locations going, and started calling it Shaolin-Do. Some spell it Shaolin-Tao. Depends on the school, but it's the same thing. One way or another it means the same thing: "Way of the Shaolin."

I would have said---go back and read this thread from the beginning----but it's really just too dang long, and I would have felt bad.:D

[MasterKiller]

So GM Ie Chang Ming adopted the use of a gi and started teaching his shaolin as a "pseudo-japanese" art under the name of Chung Yen Northern Shaolin.

Yeah, because using a Chinese word in your school name is the smart way to throw people off the scent, huh? No way Shorinji would have worked better in that scenario.

[kwaichang]

Who really knows what it was called in Indonesia , It could have been called Kun Tao or Naha Te KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah, because using a Chinese word in your school name is the smart way to throw people off the scent, huh? No way Shorinji would have worked better in that scenario.

Not really the point. I don't care what he called it. Just bringing a newb up to speed without having to have him sift through this thread. Maybe he did call it Shorinji. Maybe he called it Shotokan or Shorin-ryu . We do know that he didn't use the name "Shaolin-Do" b/c that's the term Sin The adopted for his schools. If Hiang's camp is telling the truth, it was to become Chung Yen, eventually, and it had several masters....not just Ie Chang Ming....

Shorinji/Shaolin-do/Chung Yen....it's just names, man.

By the way MK, saw Shaolin Master Killer for the first time yesterday.....kickass movie. Funny though, with the whole bo staff circling doo-jobs on the razors....I have two staff forms that teach the same principle. I know it's just a movie, but I found that edifying.

Know of any other really good Kung fu flicks?.....Fist of the White Lotus was wierd, and so was Return to 36 Chambers......good, but wierd...

[Shaolin Wookie]

Then again....I'll let KC do the talking. He knows better than I.:cool:

[kwaichang]

Dont put that on me KC:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Gotta put it on someone....and you were here fishing around.

Don't complain when you land a big juicy trout......:D

[kwaichang]

What you talkin about willis, I aint fishing Im just talking out loud KC

[lxtruong]

On to more important things, Bears are going to the SuperBowl!!!!

[brucereiter]

On to more important things, Bears are going to the SuperBowl!!!!


yes! and they are going to win! the windy city!
that is the most important and informative posts i have seen in a while !!!

[kwaichang]

Is that cause your in chicago ??? KC:)

[brucereiter]

Is that cause your in chicago ??? KC:)

i live in atlanta, ga ... but i grew up in il ... the sox and the bears !!!

[The Xia]

Know of any other really good Kung fu flicks?.....Fist of the White Lotus was wierd, and so was Return to 36 Chambers......good, but wierd...
Fist of the White Lotus is a sequel to Executioners from Shaolin so if you liked it I'd recommend watching the first one. In terms of other movies, the Kung Fu genre is broad so it depends on what you like. If you like old school, check out Mad Monkey Kung Fu, that's a 70s Kung Fu classic.

[BoulderDawg]

Fist of the White Lotus is a sequel to Executioners from Shaolin so if you liked it I'd recommend watching the first one. In terms of other movies, the Kung Fu genre is broad so it depends on what you like. If you like old school, check out Mad Monkey Kung Fu, that's a 70s Kung Fu classic.

I heard a rumor (I cannot vouch to it's authenticity) that Grandmaster The is trying to get a movie made about his life......honest to God I heard that!:D

I'm just wondering if it would be classified as fiction or non-fiction!:eek:

[Judge Pen]

He's been interested in making a martial arts movie for a while. Who knows if it will ever happen.

[Lamassu]

On to more important things, Bears are going to the SuperBowl!!!!

Yay Bears!!!!! :D

[The Xia]

Haven’t they been talking about this for years? What's the deal with that?

[Lamassu]

Haven’t they been talking about this for years? What's the deal with that?

Last I heard, he's trying to raise the finances, other than that I don't know. Has he a movie company interested in his project yet?

[Lamassu]

He's working with one in China at this time.
BQ

Kewl! :cool: Is it "Golden Harvest"? That would be awesome!

[brucereiter]

Where's GM Su Kong?

he is right there at the top of the page ...
http://www.shaolincenter.com/lineage.html

http://www.shaolincenter.com/grandmaster_ie.html
<<Ie Chang Ming inherited the immense body of Shaolin knowledge as a master at the Fukien temple and received the Grandmaster title after the burning of the last temple from Great Grandmaster Su Kong Tai Djin. Grandmaster Ming left China and settled in Bandung, Indonesia where he began to teach the Shaolin art.>>



The SDA website list all schools of GMS and their Masters.....SDA or NON-SDA:D
BQ

http://shaolin-do.com/schools/schoollocations.shtml
the sda page has always to my knowledge had a full list of shaolin do schools. i think the confusion is/was that only sda masters have their photos on the sda page. i see no problem with that though since it is the "sda" page ...

best,

b

[WhiteEarp]

Hi you all!
I'm now training for about 4 years in Kung Fu, (How Chuen), and now I’m also training in Choy Li Fut.
I'm actually from Holland but I’ve read all over the internet the incredible claims of shoalin-do. And grandmaster The.
My sifu also was taught the art of How Chuen in Bandung, Indonesia. By Le Chiang Ming.
Now he's an older guy and only recently discovered the Internet. And was amazed by the vast amount of things you can look up there:P.
And called me one day: “look what I had found! I was taught by his father in my early days, I should e-mail him!"

He has the same claims and stories grandmaster The has about the hairy kungfu monk and how his students fled and le chiang ming came to Bandung.

We also use the Japanese Gi, white Gi, black pants, and yes we do use a belting system. It's way cheaper here and more robust, so it's practical.
And about the belting system: "Asians can look into someone's eyes and see what someone is capable of, but western people don't". And western people need motivation in the beginning.
And for him it's also easy to see, who knows what.

I can confirm that they had to teach everything in secret, because it was illegal back then. Although he never ***** a Gi or used Japanese terms (we don’t use Japanese terms in our class).
He teaches kungfu techniques from a couple of styles he calls it kungfu, he never says: I teach shoalin kungfu or claims to teach a complete shoalin system.

Now my master also was taught in Fu Kuen, and later on by Sifu Meijers (or Sifu Tze) in Lung Chuen.
So he was not only taught there, he went to Thailand and Hong Kong to find new masters and learn from other styles.
You maybe surprised but within the group of monks who fled (including Le Chiang Ming) there where two monks who where experts in the art of monkey, and there where also two monks who where experts in the art of the dragon (lung Chuen).

Now my master doesn't advertise his story, although sometimes he shares a few stories here and there.
I've experienced over 4 different styles: Ishin-Ryu Karate, Kung Fu (how Chuen), Modern Wushu and Choy Li Fut. So I know what is karate and what is kungfu.

What I am teaching with How Chuen is definitely no karate what so ever. Circular, fast movements. A lot of techniques, only shorter, like Choy Li Fut(it's a southern short-range system).

But I am able to confirm from three sources that those stories are true, or at least do have a huge portion of truthfulness’.
And they haven't spoken since decades so it's not some kind of major fraud.
I also saw the pictures from Indonesia, and a famous Judo champion from Holland also went there to Bandung in the 60's to learn some techniques from small Chinese men. So, yes it exists, and yes Le Chiang Ming is (was, he was 83 or so when my master was his student) a real person.
I don't know shoalin-do. And I also think they have incredible claims, but I only tell you what I have heard from my master and have seen on his photos. And they seem pretty compatible.

[Lamassu]

Nice to meet you WhiteEarp. I'm glad to hear from a source outside of Shaolin Do confirming at least part of our history. Do you have any of those photos available? I would like to see them, especially those with GM Ie Chang Ming in them. The only picture I've seen of him is a portrait painting, which you can see in any Shaolin Do web site.

[BoulderDawg]

Do you have any of those photos available? I would like to see them, especially those with GM Ie Chang Ming in them.

Me too! I've also thought it was very strange that there are no pictures of such an important master .

[Judge Pen]

WhiteEarp,

Very nice to meet you. I too am looking forward to your insight on this never-ending topic.

[kwaichang]

Where the heck is TWS Hey you out there TWS????? KC

[WhiteEarp]

Me too! I've also thought it was very strange that there are no pictures of such an important master .

Well to be frankly, i'll have to scan them first(they didn't use digital camera's back then:p ).
And ofcourse ask permission!:rolleyes: but since he is thinking and talkin' about designing his own website(wich he wants me to build) and ofcourse upload his pictures. I'm pretty sure i can post them here;)
I think i'll get it done by Saturday:-).

[Lamassu]

You are so kewl WhiteEarp!!! :cool: You're really doing a great service to all us Shaolin Do practitioners. I want to thank you, now for bringing and reaffirming this history to us. I look forward to seeing the your Master's new website!