Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[mortal]

What was the outcome of willow swords challenge match?

[The Willow Sword]

i was defeated. and in my defeat i gained my greatest victory.
the posts are probably erased now. i do not wish to re-hash the subject. suffice it to say " sometimes when you win you lose and sometimes when you lose you win. my case is the latter.

Many Respects, The Willow Sword

[mortal]

The willow sword

I like your posts. Your honest. I really respect and appreciate that. I can tell your a kung fu nut like me. I also respect the fact that you took the time to follow it through.
What did you change about the way you train? Are you still confident in your style or did you seek outside instruction? Not trying to rehash.

Anthony

[The Willow Sword]

i focus mainly on hsing i now. i do the pakua routines such as the stepping and other things, and the buddha fist form that i learned at SD is now my taichi form. i have gone independant and train when i can. when i spar its full on contact. and i still meditate and live my life.
many respects, The Willow Sword

[Okami]

I have been following this and other related posts for a little while and I was prompted to do some research.
I have not finished yet, but I may have found some hope for Shaolin Do practicioners out there.

First of all I want to say that I have no side on any issues about Shaolin do. I have my own opinions about SD, but my research is a firm attempt to remain objective and seek the truth.

The dates of the SD grandmasters fit into historical accounts of events during the times that they lived. This does not mean that they existed, just that their existence was possible.

Guang Xu (Manchu) was emperor of China from about 1890 until the Boxer Rebellion. Some historians claim that the Fukien temple was destroyed completely just before the Boxer Rebellion. This would place Su Kong (the hairy one) at the right time and the right age to have been at the temple and to have escaped into the mountains. The best report I can find is that about 30 or so inhabitants of the temple excaped, most are unnamed.

The next grandmaster who killed 11 soldiers also fits into history. Around 1928 when he was supposed to have been awarded this title, China was not under a unified rule. The camp of a warlord that he wandered into could have existed. Also, it is reported by historians that many practitioners of kung fu traveled south to maintain their safety. The move to Indonesia fits into this.

Sin The is a real person. He attended the University of KY with the father of a friend of mine. He is Chinese (my friend's father is Chinese). My friend's father knew Sin and I asked him some questions about him. He said that Sin was a good engineering student and lived on the same floor of the dorm with him. He said that Sin's brother was really a better martial artist than Sin. But, Sin is older and that family tradition thing takes presidence. He also said that Sin called his martial art Karate then. This would have been in the late 60's to early 70's.

There are videos of SD practitioners performing pieces of kata (sorry about the Japanese word here) on the internet. I think it is the site for the Atlanta school, but I am not sure. You can see what they look like there.

My current conclusion, which is my no means final, is that it is possible that SD is legit. Whether or not it is probable that SD is legit is still up for questioning.

I am from KY and throughout my Martial Arts career I have been exposed to Shaolin Do. I am not a student in this style, but I have trained with some SD people and I have found them to be good martial artists and willing to share what they know. I know more than a handful of katas from the style and I enjoy practicing them. Among my group of practice partners along with my instructor we have found many good combat applilcations of techniques within these forms.

I know one of the major objections to SD is the uniform. I have a common sense theory behind this. In the late 60's when Sin started teaching in KY there was little or no knowledge of any martial arts at all. Everything was Karate regardless of where it came from or what it looked like. This is to include Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, Judo, or any Asian martial art. The uniforms were a familiar thing to see, so he used them to attract students. He kept them because "if it works, don't fix it."

Several of Sin's students who are now instructors have changed to Chinese uniforms and have adopted forms and techniques from other Chinese styles. Most of these schools call themselves Shaolin-Ryu. Ryu being the Japanese word for branch.

On a side note, Sin's brother operates schools in KY also.
I have noticed a difference between students of Sin and his brother. Their katas (please excuse my use of this Japanese word, it is the term we use for all types of sets of movements in my school) are performed differently. Sin's students are slower and seem more Karate-like. Hiang's students perform with more fluid motion and particularly in animal forms, seem more like the animal they imitate. Personal style I guess.

As far as historical accuracy, either the people fit into the time periods because they were actually there, or somebody did their homework before writing their biographies.

So much for objective, now for my opinion.
I think SD looks so much like Karate because they have the same roots. And the roots aren't that deep. Karate practitioners who make up the lineage of the four main Okinawan styles (Shotokan, Shinto-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, and Gojo-Ryu) traveled to the area of China where the Fukien Temple was located. Regardless of the grandmaster's lineage being legit, SD most likely came from southeastern China as did the roots of Karate. Tode Sakagawa who by most accounts is the first major practitioner of Karate in Okinawa, lived around the time that the Fukien Temple was supposed to have been destroyed. It is possible that he learned martial arts from the same people as Sin's martial ancestors learned from. Of course the martial arts of both lines evolved independently due to the envoronment, politics, and the individual practitioner's physical capabilities and motivations. But they are not seperated by much time, so the styles still share much similiar material.

From what I have seen of SD I believe it to be an effective combat martial art. Just as effective as Shotokan, Jujutsu, or Wing Chun. Of course it has its weaknesses, but all styles lack somewhere if we are persistent enough to look for them. If someone is training to be combat effective I think SD is a good system to utilize in a cross-training program. I have found through my own experience that the instructors are willing to help in this cross-training endeavor. When I went to the Shaolin-Ryu club at UK while I was in college, they let me keep my rank from my own style and allowed me to train with students at all levels. I had a good time with these guys. Their class sessions were physical and I got some good exercise from both kata and sparring. I learned some things fighting with them, and I like to think I taught them something too.

Below the black belt level, SD lacks in internal training. Not that this is a bad thing. Some styles follow the theory that the body must be trained first. Seems SD is one of these. Opinions vary as to which to train first or to train concurrently.

Coming from an eccletic martial arts style, the history of styles interests me, but does not motivate me. We are not concerned with the purity of a style or its lineage. In the true American melting pot heritage, we will try anything and see if we can make it work. SD has some techniques that work.

Train for fun. If it is not fun anymore it is time to look for something new.

[Shaolindynasty]

Good post Okami, I also beleive at the bottom of all the stuff that gets hashed and rehashed about shaolin do, is probally a legitamate style of martial arts. People can argue history till the end of the world and acomplish nothing. Using history to define a martial art is flawed, look at CLF on the southern forum. Choy Lay Fut is a pretty new style(maybe 200 years?) still people argue about history, who cares. Also i don't care about what type of uniform they use, I mean would we say someone doesn't practice real CMA because they wear sweat clothes to train in?

The only real problem I see with the Shaolin Do system is the 900(or more) forms that Sin The teaches. That is way to much info to have for any one man. It seems like he incorperated or made up allot of stuff more recent, I suspect for business reasons but who knows. I can't comment on the effectiveness of their technique since i have never personally trained with them.

Most people I meet on these forums from Shaolin do are pretty open about trading info and they do seem well behaved, which is allot more than I can say about Chung mo quan people. So there are some good things about that school, they just need to be careful about becoming forms collectors.

[Okami]

I thought I had a line on some new info, but it didn't pan out.

Before the summer is over I am going to make a trip to Lexington and try to talk to Bill Leonard. He is Sin The's highest ranking student.

No promises though. I am sure he is a busy guy just like the rest of us.

[dezhen2001]

Hi stumblefist, just wanted to say that i seem to post ok without having to log in again... maybe it's a problem with your account? :)

david

[dezhen2001]

no problem, glad i was of some small help.
U mean the english is bad in Cali? or in china? :D

take care,
david

[GeneChing]

...whew doggies! That's one tall order. I wish I could. All I can do is go back and manually delete silly posts, and that's a lot of work. someday when I have nothing better to do....

There was a big data corruption when it came down to dates. That stuff is lost for good and it does jam some our our search processing. It was the best we could do to save what we had. Unfoturnately, we are at the mercy of the forum provider for the search engine. Their last update crashed the whole forum a while ago. Hopefully the next won't be so devastating. But most of the data is there, which I think is the important thing.

Part of me agrees with you about the whole Shaolin-Do debate, the numbers are interesting. But as the moderator here, I just get tired of the cattiness of the debating style.

Not sure what's going on with your logging in problem. You're the first to complain about it, Stumble...

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Okami
On a side note, Sin's brother operates schools in KY also.
I have noticed a difference between students of Sin and his brother. Their katas (please excuse my use of this Japanese word, it is the term we use for all types of sets of movements in my school) are performed differently. Sin's students are slower and seem more Karate-like. Hiang's students perform with more fluid motion and particularly in animal forms, seem more like the animal they imitate. Personal style I guess.


Very very good post, especially coming from a somewhat impartial observer. I started studying Shaolin Do when Masters Sin and Hiang (pronounced Shawn) were still teaching together. I agree with your above statement, mostly. I am a student of Master Bob Green whose teachers were both brothers. Once the split occurred he remained with Sin The'. I agree that some of the schools that are under Sin The's "camp" have altered the art some, to make it easier for students or for whatever reason. I have seen it at our tournaments and it sickens me. It also seems that Master Hiang teaches exactly the way he did when Master Green studied under him 35 years ago. I have attended some classes under one of Master Hiang's students and they match what we do at our school verbatim: fluid, flowing, fast movements.

[Radhnoti]

:eek:

Wow. This topic popped up right about the time I started keeping a lower profile (around 2nd brown)...meaning not jumping up to defend EVERY time someone says some little thing wrong about shaolin-do. I started posting on these boards as a shaolin-do white belt almost 4 years ago, and spent way to much time arguing on this very forum. A lot of it is lost...and that's probably for the best. I got my black this past March, and it's amazing how this debate keeps popping up. Cyclical indeed.
Regardless, themeecer welcome to KFO. My instructor has picked up a bit from Master Green, and holds him in the highest regard. Please don't let the differing viewpoints here drag you down...many folks opinions of GM Sin and SD are as entrenched in the negative as your's is in the positive. In the end, the only opinion that matters is your own...but I'm sure you know that.

Take care, and PM or e-mail me if you want to discuss anything (SD related or not).

[brassmonkey]

Don't worry guys, if people here thought you were from legit sources they would then be arguing that your art is not the true transmission rather then fraud, so there is always critisism.

[themeecer]

You are probably right Brassmonkey. What style do you study? (And I promise not to say it isn't a real art)

[brassmonkey]

I try to practice Tai Chi Chuan but I don't presume I'm doing it. One of the reasons I don't give specifics is to avoid getting in clashes with people saying what I do sucks etc. This way they can only argue with my words.

[themeecer]

Hehe ... like that would happen on these boards. Hehe

I am amazed at the attitudes of a lot of these people towards other's arts. There are good practitioners in all arts. In fact in every art there will always be at least one person more superior than all of us posters.

Friend, I wouldn't dog you for what style you do. In fact I would love to push hands with you someday. I haven't had a chance to do that with anyone that is solely of an internal style. All other schools here are TKD.

[brassmonkey]

If you stay on this board your going to always be in a battle on several fronts with people from many styles. Why? I'd give up arguing with everyone, I don't believe your going to change theyre mind because they feel theyre style that's in your system isnt the same and is a fake. If your happy doing what your doing that's the bottom line of course. I have my opinions on Shaolin Do in fact I was 1 of the first detractors to get the ball rolling long ago when Kung Fu magazine didnt own this site. At some point all martial arts are made up...alot have colorful fictional histories to go along with them even the style I practice Tai Chi Chuan probably has a fictional history with Chang Seng Feng or maybe not, who will ever know.

Perhaps if we get to know each other better we could do some push hands. I've had people outside my system try to burn me when I allowed myself to be used for demo purposes(very very dumb.)

[themeecer]

That is why I like push hands, it is easy to be friends afterwards. In fact I would like to find someone to school me all over the place. You learn best that way.

[brassmonkey]

that quote on push hands I saw almost exact same thing quoted by a Tai Chi Master. However at tournaments where people are cordial b4 often is very different during or after the competition. Its like hulk syndrome or something. No judo schools around? Theyre randori is great to work against.

[themeecer]

That's why I prefer sparring or pushing hands with no spectators. It is just you and the other person. No ego, no having to look good for others. It is a better learning experience for both parties, instead of one trying to beat down the other.

[templefist]

I know there is a 10 and a 12, but a 30?

Has anyone else heard of this......or am I just completely off track?

-templefist

[crazymaddrunk]

Hey Shaolindynasty-

"The only real problem I see with the Shaolin Do system is the 900(or more) forms that Sin The teaches."

You need to go over to the Kung Fu Form and read about the Green Dragon guys (who claim 900 forms) and also the Master from China that has 1200, or the Korean guy that has 700.

In other words, don't go pointing fingers at SD when other lineages/styles offer the same thing.

[trilobite]

The reason for which that and our Short Form (a 108 posture form from Shaolin now lowered to 30 postures) is because quite frankly, people from 1960's Kentucky couldn't grasp it. It confused them a lot apparently. So (at that time) Master Sin made it so that they could understand it. I assume he did this with he brother Master Hiang.

[templefist]

So it isnt the same thing as a tan tui 10 or 12 road spring leg exercise? I was unaware that it was ever 108 roads, I thought that was an entirely different thing all together.

templefist

[templefist]

So it isnt the same thing as a tan tui 10 or 12 road spring leg exercise? I was unaware that it was ever 108 roads, I thought that was an entirely different thing all together.

templefist

[Ralphie]

Going by what I have read on different web pages, there are quite a few versions on the number. One page states that they were set to 15 about 70 (?) years ago at some martial art meeting. I am not certain on the date. Another page had 28 as their number and goes on to say that they are several different sets out there.

You're confusing Tan Tui with something else. Your short forms are not like TT at all. Tan tui is generally 10 or 12 roads, although there may be variations. It has general attributes that are unique and distinctive. The stances are higher, the momentum carries the practitioner through the technique. This creates a constant recycling of kinetic energy, produces strength and speed attacks at odd angles. The profile of the practitioner is generally minimalized as well in order to reduce incoming attack angles.

SD short forms tend to be low to the ground, a bit more "snappy" when strikes are applied, and not as mobile.

There is a 108 lo han form that focuses generally on just a few techniques per lo han movement, but again is different than SD short forms. However it may be that SD SF were derived from a southern flavor of this.

Not trying to dis you, but you are not deriving your information on experience outside of SD it seems. By this I mean that reading a web site does not give you an exact idea of these methods, as you still look at them as a SD practitioner.

[First-Chevalier]

All,
I am new to your forum, and am a practitioner of Shao-Lin Tao. I'm told I'm not smart enough to leave sleeping dogs lie, as it where, so I've come to see what all the fuss is about Shao-Lin?

I welcome any and all comments, so long as they are civil. I ignore name callers as I consider the discussion won when the only responses a person can make involve name calling and four letter words.

With that said, away we go . . .

[First-Chevalier]

All,
I am new to your forum, and am a practitioner of Shao-Lin Tao. I'm told I'm not smart enough to leave sleeping dogs lie, as it where, so I've come to see what all the fuss is about Shao-Lin?

I welcome any and all comments, so long as they are civil. I ignore name callers as I consider the discussion won when the only responses a person can make involve name calling and four letter words.

With that said, away we go . . .

[Radhnoti]

I have been told by some folks that the 30 short forms SD have are not all based on tan tui. And, that at least a few of them were adapted from linkage or training sets.

I suspect that most are adaptations of some version of tan tui though, the similarities are just too great. I do, however, admit my exposure to other school's tan tui is mostly from still photos so Ralphie's 108 lohan theory could be dead on. Ralphie, if you don't mind could you direct me to an example of this 108 lohan form...a school, website, book, etc.?
Thanks.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Okami
Karate practitioners who make up the lineage of the four main Okinawan styles (Shotokan, Shinto-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, and Gojo-Ryu)

(Just to be an ass, I'm gonna argue over Japanese/Okinawan arts on a CMA thread about a questioned CMA . . .)

Shotokan
Classified Japanese. Yep, Okinawa is a part of Japan now, but the arts developed from either tend to be separated by their practitioners (or maybe I'm a tight-ass). Developed by an Okinawan practitioner of Shorinryu. Speaking of Shorinryu . . .

Where is it? It's one of the more wide-spread styles on Okinawa, next to Gojuryu.

Wadoryu

This too is a Japanese art, post-dates Shotokan (founder Hironori Ohtsuka was inspired by, and worked out with, Gichen Funakoshi, Shotokan founder). Ohtsuka was the first Japanese to form a karate style as a Budo.

Gojuryu kicks major @$$.

Oh, where was Uechiryu?

Time to throw together a crappy paper for comp II. Yay!

[Kymus]

Originally posted by Vash


(Just to be an ass, I'm gonna argue over Japanese/Okinawan arts on a CMA thread about a questioned CMA . . .)

Shotokan
Classified Japanese. Yep, Okinawa is a part of Japan now, but the arts developed from either tend to be separated by their practitioners (or maybe I'm a tight-ass). Developed by an Okinawan practitioner of Shorinryu. Speaking of Shorinryu . . .

Where is it? It's one of the more wide-spread styles on Okinawa, next to Gojuryu.

Wadoryu

This too is a Japanese art, post-dates Shotokan (founder Hironori Ohtsuka was inspired by, and worked out with, Gichen Funakoshi, Shotokan founder). Ohtsuka was the first Japanese to form a karate style as a Budo.

Gojuryu kicks major @$$.

Oh, where was Uechiryu?

Time to throw together a crappy paper for comp II. Yay!

I saw a license plate once that read "Goju2Ryu" ;). And a friend of mine who is a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt in Shotokan saw 3 biker friends each with a license plate named after a Shotokan form ;).

[Vash]

I've heard it takes hell and a day to go up through the ranks in Shotokan, after the initial dan grade. Any idea why, or if that's even true?

I prefer the OMAs, but those JMAs can kick @$$ when necessary. But, the CMAs . . . ;)

[Ralphie]

I suspect that most are adaptations of some version of tan tui though, the similarities are just too great. I do, however, admit my exposure to other school's tan tui is mostly from still photos so Ralphie's 108 lohan theory could be dead on. Ralphie, if you don't mind could you direct me to an example of this 108 lohan form...a school, website, book, etc.?

I know there is some kind of desire to connect your short forms with tan tui, but they are more dissimilar than similar. There are some "kung fu" like movements in your short forms that may look somewhat like tan tui, but the way they are taught is much much different. By this I mean the essence of the of the movements are very different. Like I said as well, the 108 lohan might be similar in a way as well, but again, are very different to your short forms. I actually don't know how to direct you toward information on these, as I learned them from someone.

I got my black belt in SD several years ago. I know first hand what you guys teach, and what the methods are. I can, with first hand experience, tell you that both tan tui and the 108 lo han are very northern, and if I could pin point the SD short forms, I would say they "look" more southern. Although, that is debatable as well.

SD is what it is. It has its own paradigm that is unlike any other CMA. Some in the SD clique will say that is because it is directly from the temple, etc. However, I personally don't believe that it is. It really does not fit into any other CMA method or paradigm. While it teaches many forms from many systems, it does not teach the nuts and bolts of any particular system. Therefore, it lacks the essence of any of the systems it proclaims to teach. I may not be clear, so here is an example:

When The Willow Sword fought Reemul, I remotely observed the occurrence. I even contacted TWS afterward, and told him I thought he won a lot of respect for doing what he did. I then described the event to my instructor. After describing "Reeemul" to him, he immediately said "He (Reemul) was probably a Tiger practitioner." I, knowing that he was, affirmed this. When I asked how he knew, he said, "he seemed like a Tiger practitioner." Reemul, because he has trained in that system, holds the essence of that system. Even his general attitude takes on the essence of that system. Like a SD practitioner holds the essence of the SD system. If you were taught a tan tui form, you would do it like a SD practitioner. Maybe that's why your short forms look nothing like tan tui. When you do ba gua, you look like a SD practitioner doing ba gua, not like a ba gua practition doing ba gua. These are my observation based on experience.

I hope this helps in one way or another.

[Kymus]

Originally posted by Vash
I've heard it takes hell and a day to go up through the ranks in Shotokan, after the initial dan grade. Any idea why, or if that's even true?

I prefer the OMAs, but those JMAs can kick @$$ when necessary. But, the CMAs . . . ;)

My Grandmaster Started out learning in Okinawa. He has something like 6 different black belts in Okinawan Karate (dunno the exact styles off hand), Then he went to Taiwan and learned there. He prefers the CMA. He actually doesn't care for Karate at all now.

As far as Shotokan goes, I'm not sure. I'll have to ask her.

[Ralphie]

Bluesman,

I think the SD debate here is just one that comes up every once in a while. There have been a lot more SD guys on the forum lately, and this has increased the attention to it. I think that once people get past the uniforms thing, the problems are with the claims made by SD itself. To me, SD practitioners should be happy practicing what they do, and really if you visit one of their kwoons, they are. This is a good thing. Many people have found what they are looking for at SD. However, it is when claims are made to the contrary of facts that it rubs people the wrong way on these type of anonymous forums.

Let me put it this way, what if I started a SD school, when in fact I only knew some things on the surface regarding SD? Now maybe I knew a lot of forms, and this and that, but really what I did was modern Wu Shu. Would it make you mad if I told you I did SD because I knew some similar forms? What if you said, "but you don't do SD short forms", and I said "I do a variation called the Shaolin Dao Center short forms, but we do 48 instead of 31". What if my short forms looked nothing like yours save for a few generic KF moves, but I claimed a variation of them? Would my claims concern you, as I diminish the essence of what you do? What if my version of your Mantis looked and felt nothing like how your mantis is taught, or any other version of authentic mantis that you've seen or felt? Would this raise questions in your mind? Now, really this is small potatoes to you and me, but in this forum these questions can be asked.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

For starters I am neither pro nor con-SD, never seen it and I doubt that I will ever do so.

The main issues that people seem to have with SD seem to be the following:

1.) Su Kong Tai Djin and his looks.
2.) Claiming to be the most comprehensive art.
3.) Claiming it to be true Shaolin KF.
4.) At one stage the style called itself karate.
5.) Usage of japanese terminology and training cothing.
9.) Claiming that 1 person knows and remembers 900 Forms.
10.) Belt ranking structure
11.) Mix of forms/styles per rank.

For the most part I see most of the above points as advertising and minor pet-peeves by a few guys on here.
I have seen similar claims and statements made by literally dozens of arts.

What got the guys on here realy riled up when a swarm of SD guys came over here to defend their system, started to attack the guys on here and started to bad-mouth this forum.

Personally I found the attitude shown by a few SD & ex-SD-guys to be very immature and not becoming of MA.

If the guys that train at SD are happy that is good enough for me and if they can get what they learn to work for them all more power to them.

I as a traditionalist personally don't like systems with many forms and personally rather study a few forms and work on them over a long time.

IME, if you learn too many forms from too many systems it will show.
i.e. If your base is lets say TKD, it will flavour the other styles forms you learn.
It is very hard to keep them separate and takes a lot of work and dedication to do so.

Thus I wouldn't expect a form done by a SD student to look/feel the same way that lets say a Chen TJQ form would look if the student only studied Chen TJQ.

Just some thoughts on the topic.

[Brad]

A few corrections(in bold):

1.) Su Kong Tai Djin and his looks. and the problem that no one else seems to have any mention of this guy... a grandmaster of all Shaolin who looked like that would kind of stand out
2.) Claiming to be the most comprehensive art.
3.) Claiming it to be true Shaolin KF.
4.) At one stage the style called itself karate.
5.) Usage of japanese terminology and training cothing.
9.) Claiming that 1 person knows and remembers 900 Forms.from 50 different, often unrelated, systems
10.) Belt ranking structure
11.) Mix of forms/styles per rank.
12.)There's also all the very poor(performance wise) videos on the net

[themeecer]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
What got the guys on here realy riled up when a swarm of SD guys came over here to defend their system, started to attack the guys on here and started to bad-mouth this forum.

I'm not sure which time you were speaking of, but a few came over when I first started posting here. It wasn't us attacking the guys here, it was totally the other way around. We respectfully debated them for a while. I have recently just given up on them, though. I am of the mindset of, screw them, I could care less what they thought. I will drop in if a good discussion is going on but for the most part, I have found this forum to be a huge waste of time, and nothing more. Some people find joy in putting others down and seeing how many people they can tick off. I do not, that only creates more stress in life.

One good thing, I have found some of the ones that were totally bad mouthing us to have come around and are actually having friendly debate. For all the rest ... bleh. Actually, I am happy for them that they find such joy in putting others down. Good for them. If that is what makes them happy, they should do that. :rolleyes:

edit: This shouldn't seem like an attack on you TJM, because it is not. This is just a posting of my "matter of fact" attitude I have developed about this forum and some of its posters.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Bluesman
I have been told by other SD people that they also agree with you on #12. Never seen them myself. The Tennesse school is ran by a skilled martial artist. Any that he had would be good.

Bluesman,

Let me say that in you few posts you have said more then in my hundreds. I appreciate your tone and the knowledge that you have shown here.

I am a student os Master Mullins and his oldest son Mike. I have been on this forum for a while as I discovered it by accident. I have seen all of the debate on SD (as well as SD posters come and go) and I have come to realize two things: 1) We do authentic kung fu albeit adapted and evolved through time and geography; and 2) Some people here have excellent points and criticisms, and some will never see SD as anything more than a pretender CMA intended to rob the ignorant of its money. It is to the first catagory that I enjoy conversing with as it helps me learn and understand more of my own art.

There are bad repesentations on the net and there are some good ones. There is quite a bit of exageration and ego displayed by a small mintority of SD students that gets passed of as the norm and not as the exception. More importantly, there are a lot of ignorance and misinformation about what we are taught that is prevelent on most all levels of students in SD. Grand Master Sin The is a very intelligent man and a gifted martial artist. I have the utmost respect for him. Things were taught by him for a reason and if we are dilligent, we will become talented martial artists; however, our forms will not look like someone who simply studies the one style. We will be well-rounded, but the subtleties of different styles will be lost even as we make our best attempts to preserve them. That is a danger in training in more than one style which is what we, as SD students, do when we learn different forms from different systems. I don't think this is a bad thing as it was intended by GM Sin, but it lends ammunition to the most ardent SD detractors in forums like this.

As an intermediate SD student, I want to learn as much as I can about our art and its place in CMA. The fear is by asking certain questions you will be labeled as being disrespectful to GM Sin and the senior Masters. I look forward to your posts and I'll chime in when I feel my limited training may provide a perspective useful to these discussions.

JP

[Vash]

ttt














































































































This should be better than the Ross v Abel fight!

[crazymaddrunk]

Immature and not becoming of MA? Let's look at a statement you made:

"What got the guys on here realy riled up when a swarm of SD guys came over here to defend their system, started to attack the guys on here and started to bad-mouth this forum."

you stupid MA wannabe, why would we have to swarm over here and DEFEND our system to start with if some other jerks weren't on here already BAD-MOUTHING SD????? You stupid SOB, you sound just like a Democrat with your double-talk...

I've already challenged some folks on this board, they never showed. Come on TaiJip monkey, I challenge you. Bring on your traditional Taiji, I'll whip your a$$ with Sparring Techniques 1-15 only (by the way, that's from the SD curriculum). Quit whining and let's get down to business. PM me and we can work out the details.

[KC Elbows]

The problem with the "there's a small but vocal minority in our group that are loudmouths and cause trouble and the rest of us get lumped in with them" defense is that you have to recognize when it's the case with others. I've hardly seen a majority of members of this forum even talking about SD, yet somehow the whole forum gets lumped together with the small group who speaks against it.

For example, judge's pen and SD are members, crazymaddrunk is a troll. I recognize that all three practice SD, but treat all three completely differently. Yet, when themeecer says "I will drop in if a good discussion is going on but for the most part, I have found this forum to be a huge waste of time, and nothing more...", applying it to the kfo community as a whole, I find it somewhat high handed, and when he goes to SD forums to complain about this forum, I wonder how he is defining "wasting time" that excludes that behavior.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by crazymaddrunk
Come on TaiJip monkey, I challenge you. Bring on your traditional Taiji, I'll whip your a$$ with Sparring Techniques 1-15 only (by the way, that's from the SD curriculum). Quit whining and let's get down to business. PM me and we can work out the details.

Yeah, sure.

First you need to go and visit your bank to draw travel expense.
Flying halfway around the world is not cheap and you will need a hotel reservation too.
:D

Come on and bring your SD to me, or PAY me to come to YOU.

If you don't want to come here, I can suggest neutral territory like australia and you can take the KFM guys over there on too.

Lets get it on, big mouth.

[crazymaddrunk]

I should have known that you were from some other useless country.

I'll come there on ONE condition, you set me up with your fine a$$ mother when I beat you, that way I can slap her around for having an ingrate know-it-all b!tch like yourself. Then I could give her a son worthy of living.

Hey, KC "on your knees"- I no longer practice SD, I train Hung Gar. and as far as me being a troll, I never liked that Lord of the Rings crap. Anyway stfu...

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by crazymaddrunk
I should have known that you were from some other useless country.


Ahah, chickening out already. :D



I'll come there on ONE condition, you set me up with your fine a$$ mother when I beat you, that way I can slap her around for having an ingrate know-it-all b!tch like yourself. Then I could give her a son worthy of living.


Naah, she would kick your butt too, to be honest I might have to fight her to see who gets to slap you around first.

[KC Elbows]

Not your best work, but a 4.1 for trying.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey


Yeah, sure.

First you need to go and visit your bank to draw travel expense.
Flying halfway around the world is not cheap and you will need a hotel reservation too.
:D

Come on and bring your SD to me, or PAY me to come to YOU.

If you don't want to come here, I can suggest neutral territory like australia and you can take the KFM guys over there on too.

Lets get it on, big mouth.

Bring it on. We are coming into Summer here so the weather will be good and the beaches are enticing. I'll get the lads together :)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by crazymaddrunk
I should have known that you were from some other useless country.

I'll come there on ONE condition, you set me up with your fine a$$ mother when I beat you, that way I can slap her around for having an ingrate know-it-all b!tch like yourself. Then I could give her a son worthy of living.

Hey, KC "on your knees"- I no longer practice SD, I train Hung Gar. and as far as me being a troll, I never liked that Lord of the Rings crap. Anyway stfu...

CMD do you try to be offensive all the time or is that just natural for you?

[Brad]

Actually, I think it's his attempt at flirting ;) My guess is that he's a closet h omosexual with a fetish for men with accents. But being raised in a ultra-conservative Republican familly that views h omosexuality as a sin, he has come to dispise himself for the feelings he can't control. This, naturaly, leads him to take out his frustrations on those that inspire the highly erotic fantasies he has when he's alone... foreign men with sexy accents.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey

If you don't want to come here, I can suggest neutral territory like australia and you can take the KFM guys over there on too.

Lets get it on, big mouth.

Yep, I'll be in that too. Bring it on Crazy Mad Dickhead!

[KC Elbows]

Give CMD some time, he's got a lot of forms to practice.:D

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
Give CMD some time, he's got a lot of forms to practice.:D

Not anymore, apparently he left SD and does now a TCMA.

I still like his attitude and think he makes a fine and upstanding rolemodel for NY cops.
:D

[Serpent]

Looks to me like CMD chickened out.

[oldmonkey]

Like Judge Penn, I also study with Mullins Shaolin Kung-fu in Tennessee.
Master Mullins, with over 30 years of experience, is an exceptional martial artist and teacher. Both his sons are also excellent. Grandmaster Sin visits on occasion for rank tests and has participated in our tournament demonstrations that help to raise money for local charities.

I also study T'ai Chi with Master Mullins. I have taken one T'ai Chi seminar with Grandmaster William C. C. Chen. While the forms display some variation, both appear to remain true to the classics in theory and practice.

[WannabeWarrior]

I'll whip your a$$ with Sparring Techniques 1-15 only (by the way, that's from the SD curriculum)

hahaha, that's the funniest thing I've read all day. I bet a TMA will run in fear from that deadly upside down jab thing.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by oldmonkey
Like Judge Penn, I also study with Mullins Shaolin Kung-fu in Tennessee.
Master Mullins, with over 30 years of experience, is an exceptional martial artist and teacher. Both his sons are also excellent. Grandmaster Sin visits on occasion for rank tests and has participated in our tournament demonstrations that help to raise money for local charities.

I also study T'ai Chi with Master Mullins. I have taken one T'ai Chi seminar with Grandmaster William C. C. Chen. While the forms display some variation, both appear to remain true to the classics in theory and practice.

OldMonkey:

Nice to see you here. Did you go to the tournament Saturday? I'm sure we probably know one another. PM me.

BTW, if you stay here a while, you will notice that when your post shows a connection between SD and a "legitimate" style, like Chen Tai Chi, it is usually ignored.

JP

[Radhnoti]

:D
JP, oldmonkey and one (maybe two if he's still around) others are the only SDer's I know of that pre-date me on this forum. Notice how his signup date is 1969?

Almost 4 years ago...ages. :o

[Judge Pen]

Ahhhhh. I see that now. I just saw the "9" post count and though he was a newbie. My bad. :o

[SmallAssassin]

Shaolin-Do, why not?

An aweful lot of this fake shaolin pride going on. Does everyone in this forum believe they are a monk? Shaolin-Do can be and is just as ligitimate an art as any other martial style.

If I played violin in an orchestra, should the cello be considered any less an instrument?

[oldmonkey]

Yes, Judge Penn, I was there Saturday, though I did not compete.

The black belt fighting was really fun to watch..really good sportsmanship, too, from what I saw.

[Songshan]

An aweful lot of this fake shaolin pride going on. Does everyone in this forum believe they are a monk? Shaolin-Do can be and is just as ligitimate an art as any other martial style.

I can't speak for anyone else who is training in real Shaolin Kung Fu but for myself I am training for a purpose.......many purposes. Am I monk? No. Does the possibilty exist for me becoming a disciple of a monk? Yes. Is that important to me? Yes....is it important for you? Probably not. We all have our reason(s) for training in martial arts.

I don't really know a whole lot about Shaolin do. As a matter of fact I never heard of it until the Shaolin monks started immigrating to America. Then all of a sudden Shaolin do emerges in the public eye. From what I understand, many members boast that they are true Shaolin and many members claim modern Shaolin is fake. It's not the Shaolin do martial art itself that is bad, it's the numerous members that make these accusations that makes the whole style look bad. I think that's why Shaolin do is slammed because of the stuff its members are putting out on these message boards. :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by oldmonkey
Yes, Judge Penn, I was there Saturday, though I did not compete.

The black belt fighting was really fun to watch..really good sportsmanship, too, from what I saw.

You saw me fight, and lose, in the final match, then. Most of us knew one another, at least on some levels, and that helps. If you have to lose, then lose to someone you know and respect.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Songshan



I don't really know a whole lot about Shaolin do. As a matter of fact I never heard of it until the Shaolin monks started immigrating to America. Then all of a sudden Shaolin do emerges in the public eye. From what I understand, many members boast that they are true Shaolin and many members claim modern Shaolin is fake. It's not the Shaolin do martial art itself that is bad, it's the numerous members that make these accusations that makes the whole style look bad. I think that's why Shaolin do is slammed because of the stuff its members are putting out on these message boards. :rolleyes:

Sin The and crew were calling their art "Shaolin" from the beginning in the late 60s so I don't think the impetus of the name Shaolin-Do had anything to do with the relatively recent influx of monks immigrating to America.

BTW, I'll agree that I've seen some pretty dumb posts on both sides of the SD fence. To blame it on just the SD members is unfair, but expected.

[MasterKiller]

JP,
An SD member posted here that Sin The' adopted the name Shaolin-Do in 1986. Are you saying this is not the case?

[Judge Pen]

No, Shaolin-"Do" may have been adopted in 1986 (I thought it was 1990 something when the SDA [Shaolin-Do Association was formed to try to standardize some of the schools that taguht material passed down through Sin The) but the term Shaolin was always used by Sin The.

[trilobite]

Good to see you oldmonkey. Though I have NO idea who you are, I'm sure we've met. I too study under Master Mullins.:D

[quantum]

Shaolin Do was used in the early seventies at least. As far as I know, Sin The used it from the very beginning.:)

[crazymaddrunk]

Hey Songshan, come down off your "high horse"...

every time I read one of your posts it sounds like a "holier-than-thou" sermon....

I've been on the street and walking the beat for over 12 years, in case you wanted to know...

just because you're a cop, and just because you train under a renegade monk from Shaolin DOESN'T mean you know everything, man

you sit there and make assumptions about an art you have no clue about, not ONE clue

Shaolin-do IS real Shaolin, and if that ruffles your chicken feathers in the least bit, well, I don't give a flying F :rolleyes:

[Salacious Crumb]

I've been on the street and walking the beat for over 12 years, in case you wanted to know... You still trying to pass yourself off as a Hung-Gar studying NY cop? Houston isn't so far from San Antonio. Why don't you go challenge Songshan with your short forms 1-15?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by quantum
Shaolin Do was used in the early seventies at least. As far as I know, Sin The used it from the very beginning.:)

Hey Quantum. Nice to have you here. What MK is referring to is an old post where the use of the Japanese term "Do" mixed with the title "Shaolin" was an illegitimate indicator of SD. One person posted that prior to the advent of the SDA, Sd schools went by all kinds of names(Shaolin Do, Shaolin karate, shoalin-do kung fu, etc) and one of the functions of the SDA was for all members schools to refer to the art as Shaolin-Do.

As far as I know, you are correct in that Sin the has called it SD form the Seventies at least (according to Master Mullins)

[crazymaddrunk]

Hey Saliva Crumb-

you guessed it, I should have known I couldn't get away from the SHERIFF :rolleyes:

I got a better idea, why don't you go suck my left nutt

[Salacious Crumb]

I got a better idea, why don't you go suck my left nutt Sure, but I'll need some help on which name to scream out when your done....should I yell crazymaddrunk, YinYangDagger, ShaolinDo , or Golden Snake?

How many knicknames does one person need? And why is YinYangDagger the only nice personality you have? Is it because he's the real person and the others are your fragile ego lashing out, or did Daddy pound you in the butt too much and make the other people inside you mean?

[quantum]

_______________________________
Hey Quantum. Nice to have you here. What MK is referring to is an old post where the use of the Japanese term "Do" mixed with the title "Shaolin" was an illegitimate indicator of SD. One person posted that prior to the advent of the SDA, Sd schools went by all kinds of names(Shaolin Do, Shaolin karate, shoalin-do kung fu, etc) and one of the functions of the SDA was for all members schools to refer to the art as Shaolin-Do.

As far as I know, you are correct in that Sin the has called it SD form the Seventies at least (according to Master Mullins)

__________________


JP,
Thanks for bringing me up to date! I have seen many instances of Shaolin Do called "karate" and just "Shaolin Do". It seems to me that people started using the "kung fu" term in the last 10-15 years.

quantum

[Judge Pen]

My understanding is that it was called Karate either in Indonesia under Ie's direction or after Sin The came to Kentucky, but it was always explained as Chinese in origin. I started about 15 years ago and that was what I heard from day one. "It's called karate, but it is kung fu." Some people here have a problem with that.

[crazymaddrunk]

Confused Crumb...

sounds like to me you're all confused...or just plain stupid...yeah, just plain stupid will work...

I don't have time to bicker with a punk like yourself...I'm simply here to blast you know-it-all punks concerning SD, if you don't like it, well, refer to my first post concerning you...

[trilobite]

BALETED!!!

[oldmonkey]

It may be difficult for younger martial artists to realize this, but in the sixties, when Grandmaster Sin first came to the U.S., most Americans were very unfamiliar with martial arts names. The word, "karate" was the most popular term used generically to refer to what we now call the martial arts.

Other systems that were new to the U.S. often used the term "karate" simply because it was a more commonly understood name. Given the more obvious similarities, this is not such a stretch! I still have a large, hardbound book from the seventies published on Tae Kwon Do that is entitled "Korean Karate." Now that TKD is well known, this is no longer the practice. The same is true with the Shaolin arts. "Kung-fu" remains the popular, generic term that Americans have used ever since the Bruce Lee films and the Kung-fu television series made it a household word.

Before that time, "Karate" was the term most Americans used to designate any martial art associated with the orient. The U.S. contact with Japan in the reconstruction period following WWII contributed to an influx of martial training and knowledge coming from that country. Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and Karate were most popularized by the earliest James Bond movies.

If you look at the political climate of the sixties, it will notice that it was the Vietnam era, also the Cultural Revolution was taking place in China, so relations were strained. If you study Indonesian history you will also see the ebb and flow of Japanese influence.

If you do your research, you will find that these terms make sense when understood in their proper historical and cultural context. Despite the word choice, we are still training with a system that comes from Grandmaster Sin, a man of Chinese descent who grew up in Indonesia and studied from Grandmaster Ie, who brought his knowledge of Shaolin fighting arts from China.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

[Ralphie]

You know, my biggest criticism of SD in this area is not so much that it is/was called Karate, but that it actually at times look like Americanized Krotty. Forms aside, most of the SD practitioners I've seen are linear and bouncy when using apps/sparring. Maybe it was because the Krotty method was the best approach at the time for bringing in his version of KF into America...I don't know. However, I know Chinese practitioners who came to the US either before or since, and they have not used that method, as it doesn't make sense in traditional CMA. I like traditional Karate, but imho, I think Krotty- jumping around-playing paddy-cake-touch fighting is a waste of time.

[cerebus]

IPPON! Full Point! Match to Ralphie. :D :D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Ralphie
You know, my biggest criticism of SD in this area is not so much that it is/was called Karate, but that it actually at times look like Americanized Krotty. Forms aside, most of the SD practitioners I've seen are linear and bouncy when using apps/sparring. Maybe it was because the Krotty method was the best approach at the time for bringing in his version of KF into America...I don't know. However, I know Chinese practitioners who came to the US either before or since, and they have not used that method, as it doesn't make sense in traditional CMA. I like traditional Karate, but imho, I think Krotty- jumping around-playing paddy-cake-touch fighting is a waste of time.

I think the reason some SD practitioners look that way is that they (we :o ) don't spend the time practicing a form, its applications and drills, and learn to fight from that form. Our sparring techniques were invented to teach a beginer to spar from our short form and, unfortunately, many Sd people never learn to fight with the more traditional forms they learn later.

[oldmonkey]

Good point, judge.
We can all benefit from more practice.

We should also recognize there will always be considerable diversity in skill levels all across the board.

For example, at the SD mountain retreat this past summer I worked out next to a former NFL football player. Needless to say, my athleticism paled by comparison!

[Judge Pen]

Mike didn't tell mention that retreat, but I won't miss it this year.

[MC Taiji Hips]

I have to say...I was very excited when I first joined shaolin-do. And I will always give it credit as the stepping stone that helped jumpstart my interest in Kung Fu. While I was in SD, never once did I question its lineage or the material. It wasn't untill Meat Shake got me to come on the forum and see what was being said about it. I was shocked. Not because it what was being said, but because the points they were bringing up were very valid. The final straw was when I met up with a mantis practioner from the forum. He was very respectful regardless we had very little to show him. He is a 7 star practioner. Meat Shake and Him both knew penatrating hammer fist, but our version was completely different. But despite all the cool stuff I was learning (like crane, tiger, and mantis) I began to realize that there where absolutely no applications of my animal forms. I learned 14th White Crane from Senior Master Mullins. I was very impressed while I was there learning, but now that I look back on the videos of 14 & 15th White Crane, I find myself shaking my head. I'm not going into the details but if you really want to know PM me.

Regardless of what may be said about Shaolin-Do, it isn't the worst out there. I now belive that XMA should be the butt of all the criticism but there are still people who strongly resent SD.

SDers Here is my message to you:
If you enjoy doing Shaolin-Do good. If you feel something is missing, you could be right. Diff'rent strokes, Diff'rent folks.

[Golden Tiger]

Judge or oldmonkey, what SD mountian retreat are you refering to? That sounds like it would be very interesting and perhaps even fun.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MC Taiji Hips
I have to say...I was very excited when I first joined shaolin-do. And I will always give it credit as the stepping stone that helped jumpstart my interest in Kung Fu. While I was in SD, never once did I question its lineage or the material. It wasn't untill Meat Shake got me to come on the forum and see what was being said about it. I was shocked. Not because it what was being said, but because the points they were bringing up were very valid. The final straw was when I met up with a mantis practioner from the forum. He was very respectful regardless we had very little to show him. He is a 7 star practioner. Meat Shake and Him both knew penatrating hammer fist, but our version was completely different. But despite all the cool stuff I was learning (like crane, tiger, and mantis) I began to realize that there where absolutely no applications of my animal forms. I learned 14th White Crane from Senior Master Mullins. I was very impressed while I was there learning, but now that I look back on the videos of 14 & 15th White Crane, I find myself shaking my head. I'm not going into the details but if you really want to know PM me.

Regardless of what may be said about Shaolin-Do, it isn't the worst out there. I now belive that XMA should be the butt of all the criticism but there are still people who strongly resent SD.

SDers Here is my message to you:
If you enjoy doing Shaolin-Do good. If you feel something is missing, you could be right. Diff'rent strokes, Diff'rent folks.

MCTH,

Let me ask you this: how long did you train in SD? In that time how many "extra" forms did you learn?

One of the biggest problems I have is that there are so many wonderful forms being offerered to SD students and they gobble them up without seeking the applications in them. In that way, I can totally understand the criticism of SD by former students like Meat Shake, CPA and you.

I am pleased with the applications in the animal forms that I know, but, then again, I've spent years practicing them and figuring out what applications are there and how they would work for me and my body type. My forms may look like sh1t, but I can fight from them.

GT,

There was a weekend retreat with Master Mullins and Master Grooms in the Smokies last year. When I get the details of the next retreat, I'll PM you or post it on the Mullins forum.

[MC Taiji Hips]

I was in it for close to a year, and I quit the day of my 3rd Brown test. I'd love to learn the applications to all the extras I learned.
And in all honesty, that was the deciding factor in my leaving SD.
I learned very little applications.
This is what all I learn outside the cirriculum:
1. 15th White Crane
2. Crazy Mad Drunk
3. 14th White Crane
4. 7,8,9 Snake PuaKua
5. the 1st road of shaolin double dagger

Its good that you learned how to defend yourself with the animal forms. I always wanted that, but never sparred animal. My class' sparring looked 2 shades better than the XMA sparring, which isn't saying much.

[MasterKiller]

Well, I can tell you what you are about to hear from most of the SD group. They will say it was YOUR responsibility to learn applications...to break the forms apart...to teach yourself how to use them.

My contention is that you are taking classes to learn kung fu. If you wanted to teach yourself, you might as well just buy a book and save yourself all the tuition.

The instructor is there to TEACH YOU; however, at a more advanced level, you will start to identify and understand new applications which you were not shown. This is the transition from student to practicioner. The only way to get there, though, is with proper instruction.

I'm not saying your instructor was bad, mind you. I just don't agree with that methodology.

[MC Taiji Hips]

My intructor usually only confused me. Giving me really far-fetched applictations. I had no previous martial experience before I joined Shaolin-Do, so I was still a rookie. Any application I came up with was either a) incredibily hard to apply b) just too fixed of a situation to apply. I know it may have been my fault, but even in my tiger forms I learned no applications. Its hard to dirive your own when nothing has been shown to you. I'll give it the benifit of the doubt, it was probably me, but then again if I had a better feel as what to do, I may have had stuck around.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Well, I can tell you what you are about to hear from most of the SD group. They will say it was YOUR responsibility to learn applications...to break the forms apart...to teach yourself how to use them.

My contention is that you are taking classes to learn kung fu. If you wanted to teach yourself, you might as well just buy a book and save yourself all the tuition.

The instructor is there to TEACH YOU; however, at a more advanced level, you will start to identify and understand new applications which you were not shown. This is the transition from student to practicioner. The only way to get there, though, is with proper instruction.

I'm not saying your instructor was bad, mind you. I just don't agree with that methodology.

Well MK it is the teachers responsibility to teach applications, but there is an analogy about a horse and some water that would also apply here. For the record I do teach applications when when I teach a rank advancement form. So does every instructor worth their salt. I don't teach every possible application, but I give them a couple to start the process and leave it to them to figure out the many variations on a move and its applications.

In MCTH's case he was a green sash with about a year's experience. He had more advanced/seminar material then he had material in the normal curriculim. To that point he would have learned approximately 20 chin na/self defense techniques; 9 one-step sparring excercises; 10 hand-to-had defense techniques; 1-30 short form; 1-20 sparring techniques; 1 basic staff form; One extremely basic "4-door" form; one basic Northern tiger form; One Tai Peng (giant bird) form which is actually only 1/3 of a complete Tai Peng form; one short stick form; and our Lo Han Chien (chuan) form. As far as forms he had more extra stuff than he had regular stuff.

I loathe extra seminar forms, especially when they are taught on the lower rank level. They are usually taught in a single day. Most people tape them and go back to review from the tape. Applications are almost never taught because there isn't time. This may be ok for an advanced student with the foundation to glean applications for themselves, but it is not for a lower rank. I disagree with the frequency that they are taught, but the counter-argument in SD is that it helps preserve the form and it keeps the instructor with a nice boost of income so they can keep teaching full time. Some schools do this more than others. I have only attended 2 seminars in my 14 years of practice.

BTW, of the extra forms he listed, I only have Crazy Mad Drunk and the first section of 14th Crane. My teacher taught those to me on his own and we discussed the applications during those lessons.

[MasterKiller]

Well MK it is the teachers responsibility to teach applications, but there is an analogy about a horse and some water that would also apply here. The analogy only works if the horse already knows how to drink when the water is presented. If he has no knowledge of how to get the water into his mouth, let alone contract the muscles to get the water into his stomach, then he willl die of dehydration.

You could argue that drinking is instinct and comes naturally; however, Kung Fu is not. It must be learned.

I don't teach every possible application, but I give them a couple to start the process and leave it to them to figure out the many variations on a move and its applications.I think most people teach this way. From the posts of some of your fellow SD'ers, though, *cough**themeecer**cough* it sounds like teachers in SD prefer to not teach any application, but would rather the student figure everything out on his own.

There is an anaolgy about not reinventing the wheel that applies here....

[MC Taiji Hips]

JP, are you an instructor? I'm through with the crane video I have, so if you like I'll let you have it. We just have to work out shipping. The video has SM Mullins doing 14th & 15th. The offers on the table,PM me if interested.

[Ralphie]

Hey JP,
Statements/questions for you: This is completely circular, as it's been talked about before, but it's something I've been thinking about and a common complaint for ex-sd people. That is, often SD explains describes the what and not the how. From a systemic view this is incomplete and in fact backwards (the cart b4 the horse :D). For example, learning an animal form, and pulling apps from that form is going to be similar to how you do other forms/styles unless you know the particulars of that style, no? This is just a line of thought, but as you described earlier, most in SD fight the same weather they've been in 1 month or 5 years because they don't spend the time to figure certain things out. Isn't this because they don't really have the knowledge base to be creative with their apps?

The 5 element theory, if you've had a chance to study it, suggests that you learn basics/foundations then and they become habit, then you analyze them further and pick them apart, then they become instinct, and then you can start being creative and spontanous with them. I think this is real life logic, as how can you even know what to build muscle memory with if you don't know the foundational methods, theory etc. (unless your a KF genius *coughthemeecercough*)? Still within the 5 element theory, a form correlates to wood, or the creative part of the cycle. Really, it's the culmination of the other parts. This is a little simplistic, but is at the heart of most CMA I've seen. BTW, it's not unusual to pick apps from forms, but it is unusual to learn a style strictly from forms without the other elements involved (there are of course foundational forms that may just teach one "element"). Anyway, food for thought.

[oldmonkey]

MCTH,Masterkiller, and Judge,

It's a mystery, but my experience has been different. Application of techniques from the forms is constantly taught and emphasized...go figure.

There IS quite a bit of material to cover and it will take MANY years to refine even a fragment of it, if that is even possible. I studied TKD for 5 years (had a great experience with it), but did not learn nearly as many advanced techniques as I have learned with Shaolin. However, even with TKD, there were also advanced techniques that I never learned because I couldn't do them!

There is an interesting comparison to be made. When I studied TKD in the seventies, we always were criticized by karateka because of our high kicks and flying combinations. They were considered by some to be impractical and inefffective. For many of the fighters I trained with they were...the lesson for them was: keep your kicks low. But to the truly exceptional fighters, the techniques were awesome and deadly. Many of these fighters had trained all their lives.

I believe this is the crux of the matter. We have to train our bodies to move and perform before we can really apply the techniques. I have been shown applications of many techniques that I am still not skilled enough to perform.

My approach is simply to set realistic training goals for myself and keep practicing.

[Ralphie]

Old Monkey...questions for you out of curiousity:
What do you consider application of techniques from forms?
What do you consider advanced techniques?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Ralphie

The 5 element theory, if you've had a chance to study it, suggests that you learn basics/foundations then and they become habit, then you analyze them further and pick them apart, then they become instinct, and then you can start being creative and spontanous with them. I think this is real life logic, as how can you even know what to build muscle memory with if you don't know the foundational methods, theory etc. (unless your a KF genius *coughthemeecercough*)? Still within the 5 element theory, a form correlates to wood, or the creative part of the cycle. Really, it's the culmination of the other parts. This is a little simplistic, but is at the heart of most CMA I've seen. BTW, it's not unusual to pick apps from forms, but it is unusual to learn a style strictly from forms without the other elements involved (there are of course foundational forms that may just teach one "element"). Anyway, food for thought.

Ralphie,

I have studied the 5 element theory as its the basis for our Hsing-I and I have been taking those principles and applying them to my other material as well. Maybe you are right in some respects that the cart is before the horse, but I think that is due to some instrctors only showing students what works for them and not showing them a way to think about their material and make it their own.

My instructor's specialties are Tiger and Hsing-I. I've been working almost exclusively on Hsing-I now for over a year and a half and I am seeing a difference in my other material. My instructor says once you learn Hsing-I, everything becomes Hsing-I. That's an overstatement, but the logic and theory behind it has helped my other external material so it makes some sense.

Old Monkey, I know who you are now. I've visited your class with Mike. ;)

[Shaolin-Drunk]

I loathe extra seminar forms, especially when they are taught on the lower rank level. They are usually taught in a single day. Most people tape them and go back to review from the tape. Applications are almost never taught because there isn't time. This may be ok for an advanced student with the foundation to glean applications for themselves, but it is not for a lower rank. I disagree with the frequency that they are taught, but the counter-argument in SD is that it helps preserve the form and it keeps the instructor with a nice boost of income so they can keep teaching full time. Some schools do this more than others. I have only attended 2 seminars in my 14 years of practice.

This gets really bad because I noticed that the instructors would give and charge for seminars on forms that you would get in the black belt classes. Sometimes I think these guys are in it just for lots of money.. There is a Master down here in texas that gave a seminar in Kentucky about how to boost income for your kwoon..
So he was charging money, for a seminar on how to give more seminars? Please..

[themeecer]

There is a Master down here in texas that gave a seminar in Kentucky about how to boost income for your kwoon..
So he was charging money, for a seminar on how to give more seminars? Please..
That master in Texas is a wonderful person and a very good businessman. He was able to go from 0 students to 600 in about 10 years. This was a very needed seminar, many schools here can hardly pay their bills much less turn a profit. If our teachers can't pay their bills than they can no longer keep on teaching. Also topics of professionalism was to be broached at this seminar and how to treat your students so they keep coming back. If this is a bad thing then I guess I am a bad person, because I think this is very important.

Edit: In response to the personal attacks on myself in this thread. It is not that I am a master or call myself that ... it is just that you suck so bad in comparision you make me look like a master. :D In all seriousness, if you can't figure out your own applications after decades of practice then maybe the MA aren't your cup of tea. Yes I am given and also give out applications, but my core emphasis is to allow the student cater their SD experience to their own bodies and strengths. You aparently don't like that ... and I couldn't give a flying flip that you don't.

[mantis7]

I am not trying to be a jerk but first off the entire white eyebrow at black sash?

Bak mei first off is a very secretive style

secondly its hard to find a Sifu who is competent in it

thirdly their are over 40 forms in one family and maybe more in others...

do they teach you the ging needed to apply bak mei?

penetrating inch force?

reverse breathing?

or any concept that would define it as Bak mei?

Bak mei has a paticular flavor and movment. DO they teach you the neccessary concepts

And just to note... I have seen Shaolin do.. I was based at Ft knox Kentucky. I have friends that have tried and or trained in the system. I know the mantis they have learned from the teachers do not comply with mantis principles. The forms, some are legit, but they are exactlly like the mantis from several popular series out as well as one being from a well known school but I am sure they do not know that the form is a clan fist set and not a traditional mantis set.

How do I know this.. well the form is from One of my Sifu's tape series. Sifu Raul Ortiz has a series out but almost all the forms are clan set.:D thats how I know that paticular form was learned from a video cassette and I am assuming white ape exits cave is from the John Funk series or maybe from LKW book. I am not trying to be a jerk but I am just trying to shed light on the origins of the forms you are learning. It is one thing to learn a form and there is no harm in that. But to learn a system and to say you are a practioner or Mantis stylist or Bak mei student you must have the core concepts, stratergy, ideaology and theory to truly say you are doing what you say you are doing. If this is not true then all the person is doing is playing forms.

Cheers
Victor

[cerebus]

BINGO, mantis7 is a winnah! I have to tell you though, themeecer won't listen to anything anyone has to say which may cast doubt upon the origins or authenticity of Shaolin-Do. If his previous posts are any indication, he just doesn't want to know.

[themeecer]

Not the case Cerubus. All this Mantis stuff is new seminar stuff .. which means I don't know it. I only have the older stuff that was taught out 20 years ago. So there is no way I can reply to his post because I know nothing of it. I have read where some mantis guys, on here, were very interested in one or two of those and said it looked like an old version of it. Go talk to them .. they know more about it than I do.

[mantis7]

actually i would like to see some clips. from these clips I will be able to divulge the origins of the forms and their authenticity.

meecer I would just like to say that reguardless of bad events in the past a teacher should be able to discuss the origins of the system with out frowning down on a student. I am the first to say amount of forms are a mote point but I am also the first to say that core information is paramount in studying a style. If The studied all these systems, even in part, and combined them all in his own version then what he is doing will be true to himself and the systems. The only reason, after my research, that I am very skeptical is because some of the forms names, especially mantis, do not appear in any Kuen po that I know. But some of the names do remind me greatly of the green dragon pamphlet list of forms.

IF you learn these forms and learn the the concepts,tech and other good things then great. I understand you love what you do and any student worth his salt will protect his teachers reputation.

The truth is here reguardless of all that you must protect your own intrest as well. Research your history, do some research on these systems your style seems to offer. Find out the key concepts and all the stuff I mentioned before. See if they match up. I am sorry for having to say this but the histroy is very suspect. The forms, the ones I have seen, are all played the same with the same type of karate power. This is not a bad thing but you might be recieving something that is not the animal you think it is.

The kung flavor is their but I am afraid that it is of the lowest level which usually occurs when someone trains only for a short while or from a book or video. It seems that the way the school plays the forms are a combination of Karate and gung fu.

wel just keep your head up and always keep and eye out for the truth. Defending your teacher is always of the utmost importance but make sure first that he deserves that defense.

Your school reminds me a great deal about a gentleman named Joe Torres who claims to be a akido grandmaster here in NY.
I studied with him when I was younger and believed everything he ever told me. The reality the material he was teaching was ineffective but the reality hit me when I lfet him for a short while and he started teaching a paticular hand set and ditang ground boxing form as part of the Akido principle. He told all the other studnets that they were three hundred years old and only taught to the most skilled inheritors. The reality was those were froms I showed him and his other student. The took the forms and learned them through vidoe tapping me performing them.

He wont even let me come to the school out of fear that I would expose him. he claimed to study under Prof. Vee and Moses powell. I happend to know both of them and one was a teacher of mine as well.

So back to my point the reason you will find it hard to find out the truth is because your GM has created a good empire for himself. He has a good amount of revenue coming for the schools and seminars and if caught could be charged with defrauding alot of people. Sometimes people perfer the dream they have and are living to the reality of things.

Also I saw the SAords teachers stone in Shoalin and just to let you know anyone can purchase the stone with donations as well as that the temple knows that alot of people have *******ize the shoalin systems and any person going to the temple or schools in the area are concidered shaolinpotential income.

but I digress. if you can get me some more clips I can tell you were most of the forms are derived from If I can or I can get toheres to decipher the origins.

Cheers
Victor

[mantis7]

Dude I am very ****ed and extremly aggitated.

I took a look at some videos of people from the Shoalin Do schools doing a drunken form,broad sword vs spear form, the five animal form, and drunken straight sword.

I am sorry to say frined but it was disgracful. The stance work was non exsistent, the techniques were not true to the systems they represent, The drunken boxing was just stumbiling and swinging of the hands.

Things like this really tick me off, I am not ticked off at you because you may or may not know these forms as being authentic.

The spear was not folloing any tech I know or have seen. It was being used as a regular staff.

Dude I know I cant convine you and it is not my place but I will tell you this. Look at other gung fu systems that your system claims to represent and compare them. The animals form didnt even use the hand forms. I.e Fu jow, fu cow and the like. THe strikes were all done with a choppy poking or punching with just the resemlance of the correct hand,claw or whatever

thie is a Rant because when I see **** like that it really drives me nutz. I wish I was close to youbecause I would definately meet up with you and display my skill and do a good exchange. I would at least give you the core concepts to mantis. I know most here flame or ridicule but I believe in correction or exchange over that nonsense.

oh and for the disclaimer that not using your system for sport. I am sorry it can be used for competitions. I used to compete and got disqualified plenty of times.

This should be a flag brother if a teacher says we do not compete because our tech are to lethal that is often a lie. I mena, even in the place of martial origin, they compete. A true martial artist will always test his skill in real competition as well as in the sports arena. but I guess thats neither here or their but I wish you luck in your training. Just keep a eye out.

Cheers
Victor

p.s these are the videos I am talking about
http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=65

[cerebus]

Ooooo (wincing painfully). That was bad, reeeaallly bad. Especially the "5 animal" form and the "drunken fist" form. Every time I click on a vid link for a SD demo, I hope that I'll see why the SD guys think everyone who puts them down is wrong, and that maybe some of the SD stuff is good afterall, but this wasn't it.

[Shaolin-Drunk]

actually i would like to see some clips. from these clips I will be able to divulge the origins of the forms and their authenticity.


Did you see the clips from the alanta shaolin-do center??

Here is the link,

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/video.jsp

[Shaolin-Drunk]

I took a look at some videos of people from the Shoalin Do schools doing a drunken form,broad sword vs spear form, the five animal form, and drunken straight sword.


Those guys are the SAords.. They do the shaolin do forms different from what we are taught. They are renegades to the Shoalin - DO system.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by themeecer
In all seriousness, if you can't figure out your own applications after decades of practice then maybe the MA aren't your cup of tea. Yes I am given and also give out applications, but my core emphasis is to allow the student cater their SD experience to their own bodies and strengths. You aparently don't like that ... and I couldn't give a flying flip that you don't. Well, seeing as how your students don't have decades of practice under their "belt," I don't see how you can justify leaving them to themselves to discover their own kung fu principles. A new student, or even a student with 3 or 4 years, does not have the capability to desconstruct forms and get everything they need. Proper instruction is THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of kung-fu training. Afterall, what's the point of having a teacher if he doesn't teach? Apparently, you confuse good teaching with hand-holding. They are not one in the same. Of course, you think everyone here is doing Modern Wushu anyway, so why should you listen to us?:rolleyes:

How about posting a video of yourself? I would love to see what 20 years of dedicated SD practice can do for someone.

[Judge Pen]

I don't know about renegades, but they are isolated from Kentucky, Texas, Atlanta, and Tennessee (the major SD schools) Each places emphasis on different aspects of the same form. I don't know the 5 animal form, but if one of Leonard's or Mullins' students did the form, they would show you a better representation. Personally, I haven't seen a good representation on the net.

You are right about the "sport" disclaimer. It can, and often is, used in sport MA.

MK, That is my point on some of the seminars being closed off to lower ranks. Personally I advocate a seminar form being taught in a special 6 to 12 week class that starts with drills and applications and ends with sparring from the techniques introduced in the form. But, I've had this discussion on the Mullins forum as well.

[MasterKiller]

MK, That is my point on some of the seminars being closed off to lower ranks. Personally I advocate a seminar form being taught in a special 6 to 12 week class that starts with drills and applications and ends with sparring from the techniques introduced in the form. But, I've had this discussion on the Mullins forum as well. Sounds good. Are they going to let you explore this idea?

[Judge Pen]

They? :D I have my teacher's ear and he shares a similar perspective on seminars. We only have one or two a year. I pick up most of my extra materials as "give-me's" from him so we can take more time to work on the details. I've had bits a peices of various fomrs for a year or two and he will occasionaly say, "Remember that first part of 14th crane? Let's work on that application some more." I'll get all the form eventually, so no rush.

The common argument for seminar forms are to preserve the forms and provide a bit of extra income for some of the teachers that teach full time. They expect the students to be motivated enough to practice on their own and glean the applications. Some can and some can't, but as long as they are upfront with that proposition, I suppose its ok. It's just when green sashes suddenly have all this material, but can't do short form correctly that I bur in my saddle.

[Shaolin-Drunk]

Another Shaolin-Do question -

Has anyone seen the "At the Feet of the Grandmaster" DVD yet?

[MasterKiller]

It's just when green sashes suddenly have all this material, but can't do short form correctly that I bur in my saddle. Word. I think every school has a few of these running around. We have a couple that like to learn as much as possible, but never practice what they learn.

Has anyone seen the "At the Feet of the Grandmaster" DVD yet?Can anyone order it, or do you have to be an SDA member?

[Judge Pen]

I think you can order it. I'm not an offical member of the SDA. I have seen bits and pieces, but not enough to form an opinion. GM Sin The is quite the talker, though. Very personalbe.

[themeecer]

Mantis7,
Your 2 posts were very well worded and respectful. For that I thank you. Regarding your second post, I understand your concerns. Without dogging another school who claims to be teaching SD all I will say is that their forms look nothing .. and I mean absolutely nothing like the way I do them. There have been some other videos I have seen on the web that are not very indicitive of what I consider SD should look like.

MK, as soon as I get my back healed up, I may just do that. (I woke up Friday morning and I was bent 45 degrees to the right in my lower waist. I am just now getting where I can walk again, decently. It was from a couple of car wrecks .. one where I was hit as a pedestrian, and some training accidents over the years. Not to mention I need a new bed ... it is sagging in the middle.) Also I need to get the capabilities to record digitally and capture video. I've been wanting to do a school website for some time now.

[MasterKiller]

They? No disrepsect intended, JP. I just figured you would have to get permission from one of your seniors. I know my Sifu wouldn't want me inventing my own lesson plans w/o consulting him first.

themeecer--Sounds good.

[mantis7]

Thank you for your reply and apologies for rhe rant..

But if it possible and not for flame sake. could you discribe the method in which you do train in mantis, Bak mei, drunken, crane or five animals.

I have been exposed to all of these systems as well as having knowledge in other systems. I am not a master but I have been training for 20 + yrs. I am a stratergist and I understand the base concept of several CMA systems. Beofre I get flamed for saying this i do this not to train in the the other systems but to along the lines of know thy enemy. I learned to understand other systems so as not to be surprised if I touch hands with someone from a school I do not know of.

So if you can and are willing to expond on your system on concepts, theroies, formulas and the like

Cheers
Victor

[trilobite]

That's an interesting signature mantis7. Where did you pick that up?

[mantis7]

Hey thanks.... My sifu used to tell me that all the time as well as my father. I guess its a New York thing lol

Cheers
Vince

[Judge Pen]

Master Mullins says the same thing to his students (the tried by 12 saying)

MK, what I ment by my post is that I don't teach on my own so there's no reason to ask for permission. That and the Tennessee group already offers seminars at a less frequency then some of the schools in larger markets. I suppose its a market analysis decision. If I ever teach a class part time, I will offer extra material in that manner, but only after permission from Mike and Master Mullins.

Mantis7, I have no real drunk or mantis training to speak of. I know one introcutory form to each system so I'm not qualified to speak about the training. Texas SD is big on mantis so maybe one of their students can give you the information that I don't have. As for crane, I have 31/2 forms and befroe I learned the forms we drilled certain techniques from the forms (crane sweeps, kicking angles and balance, some 3* esque two man drills, footwork etc) before learning the form. We also work on Hua Tao's 5 animal play which has a "stork" for certian chi kung to compliment crane.

[trilobite]

Yeah mantis7, I remember Master Mullins saying that about two years ago when I had just started learning from him. He said his father used to say that. I don't know HOW I remembered that when I can seldom remember to bring home my algebra books.:confused:


p.s. I hate algebra. . .and math in general.

[Vash]

I DISAGREE!

[trilobite]

You forgot to say "Oh, Reginold" first.


(very obscure Family Guy reference)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Master Mullins says the same thing to his students (the tried by 12 saying)



"bustin caps in the mix /
I'd rather be judged by twelve than be buried by six..."

- Ice Cube

[themeecer]

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond mantis7, and I apologize that I am going to make this brief. I have one mantis form and a few drunken forms, and a few crane forms. Not sure what you are asking by 5 animal ... are you asking about a 5 animal combined form or separate pieces of each of the 5 animals?

I think it is great to get the base concept of several CMA systems. In fact that is what I feel we do when we learn so many 'styles' but individually choose to 'major' in one or two. From your writings here I know you and I would get along great in person. I would love to cross hands with you someday.

I only have one mantis form so I can't comment on training of that. I think one or two of our SD folks on here are more knowledgeable on mantis .. so maybe they will speak up on that. I do have a few drunken forms but I don't consider myself a drunken stylist. Strangely enough I find that it mirrors some of my internal arts, with the yielding principles. Maybe someone that focuses on drunken can expand on that.

I will comment a little on our crane training, since I have a sizable brownbelt class I am putting through this now. Not going to give out too much because I feel funny doing so on an open forum .. may do more through PM later. Forgive any rambling ... I'm on some pain medicine for my back and I am feeling a little loopy tonight. I will probably not use the same lingo you use on here since I am not experienced in explaining our training, I do more of showing it. We have a set of excruciatingly painful crane training we put our students through before they learn our 3 brownbelt crane forms. I use them often with our more advanced students as well. It trains endurance, accuracy, speed, and balance .. among other things. Some items include circular bird sweeps up and down the floor without and with a target, bird 'flicks' with the hand while jumping to the 4 cardinal directions on one leg, shoulder rolls done out on large gravel and many other things. I also like to train their techniques with live participants, especially the sweeps, prior to learning the form. Upon learning the form we break down the unending applications this way: I partner the class off and designate one side the attacker. The defender has to block the punch/kick and only use techniques from a certain portion of the form. I like to go around the room and have each person demonstrate their findings. It amazes the students that they can find 15+ different applications for the same move. I take this time to correct any overly wild imaginations that come up with power ranger moves. Also after all their ideas I give them a few of my own. Some of our forms actually have training applications taught with them as well. This especially is the case with our internal styles. After this we actually spar and they are only allowed to use maybe the first 10 moves from a form.

Where do you live Mantis 7? I honestly would like to meet up with you someday. I think we would be friends, whether or not I change your mind on SD.

[Meat Shake]

"Personally I advocate a seminar form being taught in a special 6 to 12 week class that starts with drills and applications and ends with sparring from the techniques introduced in the form. But, I've had this discussion on the Mullins forum as well."

Sounds like a good plan.

[Judge Pen]

Meece, other than the rolls on gravel , the crane training sounds similar. We will hold up sheets of paper to focus the wing flicks. I'll often let a newbie 3rd brown try to sweep me with the forward crane sweep. By the time they are ready to test for 2nds, they should be able to take me right off my feet, but it takes a while for the mechanics to click with them.

[themeecer]

I like the paper idea. Never though of that. I used to play around with kicking a falling piece of paper as many times as I could before it hit the ground. I may play around with using x-rays for their wing flick paper. We have some laying around there.

Yeah the gravel crane rolls were placed upon me at an early age. The guy putting us through them was a tyrant. But I tell you, to this day I can do a roll on any surface at any speed and not feel an ounce of pain nor make any noise.

[CaptinPickAxe]

When I was in SD I used to always get people with the Crane sweep.

[Shaolin-Drunk]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
When I was in SD I used to always get people with the Crane sweep.

Yes I like the dropping in the 3rd crane and doing the foor sweeps gets them everytime!!

[stimulant]

wait a min....

900 forms????

well lets say he learnt 1 form every month....that would take.....75 years!

now old is this guy and how long has he been training?

definatly not shaolin, d'oh!


thats not to say the training is not good though.

[norther practitioner]

1 form every month

I've learned two forms in a week before...

Once you have a grasp of a system or style, the apps. can be recongnized quickly...

I'm not saying that both forms were all good by the end of the week, but still.

[themeecer]

Holy crap NP ... you actually made an argument in our defense. I have semi retired from these boards and didn't know if you had done this before. But thanks.

What people have to realize is that we have never said that our GM has master 900 forms. We haven't even said that this estimated number are all long forms. What we are saying is GM Sin has learned 900 or so forms and even though he doesn't have them all currently worked up he has means of recalling the forms in order to teach out, through his extensive notes. He does have mastery over his chosen specialty and with his ability I would say he has more than proficiency with the others.

[stimulant]

I've learnt a form in a day....but I kept learning the same form for many months after I initial learnt it.

900 is an awful lot, and easy to get cnfused with one another, notes or no notes.

i'm impressed, good luck to him!

[Vash]

ttt

To start a sh!t-storm . . .

Are the arts of Ken/mpo related, or are they in completely different organizations . . . ? ;)

[cerebus]

LOL! Geez Vash, could you be more general in your question?! Let's see, it depends on WHICH Kem/npo arts you're referring to. We have Shorinji Kempo, Goshindo Kempo, Ryukyu Kempo, Okinawan Kenpo, (which are all separate arts, though probably related somewhere along the line) then there is the whole American/Hawaiian Kem/npo arts which are all related, though they each have their own separate organizations. Some of the major methods for these include Kosho Ryu Kempo, Kara Ho Kempo, Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu, Shaolin Kempo, Shaolin Kenpo, and American Kenpo, all of which have had instructors branch off to create their own Ken/mpo systems and organizations...Whew! And ya' know what Vash? There was even a style called Isshin Kempo developed by an Isshin Ryu stylist in the 70s (I believe), though I'm not sure how many people still practice it since the guy passed away. :D

[Vash]

Whoah. I didn't know there was so much Kenpo to go around.

Joy, another research project. Yay!

[themeecer]

No idea cerebus. Not sure where the original strains of kenpo started. We could have definitely had the same influences because of the areas we were in. If I'm not mistaken the The' brothers had a few teachers. So if many of our forms weren't influenced by kenpo (even if some of our practitioners execute them as if they were) we could very easily have some other forms that were. I don't find that offensive at all to think so. I believe you can find good martial artists in all arts and I am sure there is many things I could learn from a kenpo master. (And humbly, I hope I could teach him a thing or two as well)

[Vash]

Is there a pre-set order in which they are taught?

Is there any set time to be spent on one form before one is taught another?

Why am I repeating questions asked of every other Shaolin Do thread?

[cerebus]

Shaolin-Do & Ken/mpo don't have any connection that I know of. My own opinion (which means only that) is that Sin The was a karate practitioner who learned Kung Fu forms from books (and created some forms himself). For decades Hong Kong has mass produced cheap little handbooks covering thousands of forms from hundreds of styles. These would have been easily obtained in Malaysia. If this IS the case, he would have done better to simply have proclaimed SD to be his own style of Chinese/ Malaysian Kung Fu, and I doubt anyone would have any problems with that (though it would sound much less "cool"). The major gripe Chinese martial arts practitioners have with SD (other than the historical claims) is that the forms are performed like a karate guy imitating Kung Fu. That doesn't mean it doesn't work on many levels (mental & physical development, self defense, etc.), but it ISN'T Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. Again, this is only my own opinion. Flame away!:D

[Vash]

A logical, thoughtful, non-angry voice of a Shaolin-Do practitioner, and it wasn't judge pen!

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. Just so no one makes any mistakes, Vash ISN'T speaking of ME. :D :D

[Vash]

Indeed. I was looking at meecer's post. Usually, he just irks me. But, this wasn't mean or derogatory. It was just informative.

[themeecer]

Oh I'm sorry Vash. You suck! Is that better? :D Actually .. taking a vacation from these boards has mellowed me out a little, for the time being.

Cerebus .. when I do my forms they look nothing like karate, nor does anyone else at my school. So your argument, at least for me, isn't valid. Now I have see other students at tournaments that have really surprised me in how different they are from our school.

Vash .. yes we have a preset order. We start with our short forms, which if any of our stuff looks kenpo/karate-ish it would be those. Also included are our 'sparring techniques,' and increasingly in difficulticy our chi na/self defense. Next they get their first 2 long forms. An empty hand and a small tiger form. They start some very basic weapons training at this time. The way I see it the colored belts are training to prepare them for their brownbelt forms. At brownbelt we teach out some birds, cranes, a tiger, various weapons, a few empty hand forms, and one internal form. Brownbelt is the preparing ground for becoming a blackbelt. You are not considered a student till you are a blackbelt. At blackbelt it is a whole new ballgame ... especially at 2nd black. At this level you are immersed in a lot of the internal arts and aspects. The meditation at this level is one of the best things we offer, in my opinion.

This order can be found on many SD school's websites out there.

[cerebus]

I'm sure many people in SD do their forms very differently from one another. My own observations are based on videos I've seen of Sin The performing some of his forms. I'm not saying the forms look like karate though. I'm saying they look like a karate person mimicking kung fu forms. Certainly the techniques themselves were more Chinese in style, it was rather the overall body movement with which they were performed.

[Vash]

I wouldn't know one from the other. Having avoided the Shaolin Do videos I've come across, and having never seen any branch of Kenpo perform kata, it's not in my ability to draw a comparison.

With the exception of a few tournaments, the only Kung Fu forms I've seen are dramatically different from any karate I've seen.

[Songshan]

900 forms??? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[themeecer]

Already discussed that over and over Songshan, if not in this thread then in many others.

[Judge Pen]

Hey Meece. Good to see you back here. Looks like we are talking about the same stuff, except no one is flaming the topics. Makes my heart warm. :p

[Vash]

Any word on that San Njie form vid?

[Judge Pen]

Nah, I don't have a vid camera lined up right now, but Master Mullins and his sons are suppossed to be posting some clips on their website sometime soon. It should give some of the flamers something to talk about! Next time I'm around some peopel videoing clips, I'll see if I can get someone to test me doing San Njie.

[Meat Shake]

Any word on the feb tourney jp?

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, I have a prior commitment on the 21st. I coach a high school mock trial team and that is the weekend of their competition. I'm thinking about the tourney in August in Round Rock, but that's probably too far for us to meet up and compare notes.

[Meat Shake]

Round rock?
Im driving to colorado in 2 weeks, roundrock is just a stones throw away.
;)

Im interested to see what you guys are working with. I never got to really go at it with sifu ryan, so Im looking forward to touching hands with one of you guys. (You, SA, Meercer, ect...)

[Vash]

Completely OT . . .

Why aren't there any SD schools in Arkansas?

[Meat Shake]

Because arkansas is the home of satan himself.

[Vash]

Well, duh.

[norther practitioner]

When you guys getting up here MS?

[Vash]

XMA SUXORS!

[kung fu fan]

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

[GeneChing]

Shaolin-do real? Here's what's real. There's a little search button at the bottom of the page. Reset your window so you can see all the posts from the beginning and plug in Shaolin-do. You'll get plenty of leads. Plus check out the main forum since there's an active thread on this topic there.

Since you're new, we won't chastise you for starting yet another Shaolin-Do thread, but please, don't start any more.

[MonkeySlap Too]

No, it is not Shaolin kung fu.

[Shaolinlueb]

dont listen to them. chewbacca knew what he was doing and sin the is teh ownerage....... :o :p

[David Jamieson]

lets not forget all the other styles that are of shaolin heritage as well:

Hung Kuen
Choy Li Fut
Wing chun
Preying Mantis

subsets of these and many more.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

chewbacca knew what he was doing and sin the is teh ownerage.......

:confused: :confused:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Siu Lum Fighter
:confused: :confused: http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/index.shtml

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Oh, Chewbacca! You mean Su Kong Tai Tjin the wolf man himself. I'll admit that he must have had some beastmaster type skills. But is Shaolin Do really original? I mean, they wear gi's and have a karate style ranking system for peets sake.

And 900 forms?! Just like at Omei and other schools, it's traditionally accepted that there were ten core forms and then all of the offshoots from those.

[Judge Pen]

SD is original, but I can go out and make up my own stuff and call it JP-do and it would be original JP-do, right? It's exact origins are subject to much debate (Gene's "search" idea is a great one.) We don't need yet another thread on it's history and origins. The reasons for the Japanese trappings have been debated ad nasium with nothing proved. The number of forms--heck I don't know what a "form" is and what GM The knows and doesn't know. Could it be creative accounting? Maybe, the only way I would know is if I counted him doing the forms.

Do a search, read all the debate and PM me if you still have questions. Otherwise these threads start to get ugly and redundant.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
The reasons for the Japanese trappings have been debated ad nasium with nothing proved. Actually, I proved the law outlawing Chinese Martial Arts in Indonesia was passed in 1965, which sort of puts a kink in the whole SD timeline.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29825&highlight=Indonesian

[Judge Pen]

Actually you proved a "national" law passed at that time. We weren't able to determine if there were local ordinances or regional bans were in effect prior to 1965. I actually e-mailed Davies and he did respond, but he didn't have any specific information on regional bans but indicated it could be a possibility. Where did I put that e-mail. . . .

[MasterKiller]

Now now...don't be a revisionist. :p

Why would a group of CMA practcioners, dedicated to preserving Shaolin Martial Arts from the Fukien Temple, stay in one city that banned CMA and made them alter their Shaolin traditions when they could simply move to another city and practice freely?

[Judge Pen]

I'm not being a revisionist, we talked about that topic when you mentioned the law. And SD never specifies what type of discriminatory law forced the change. Heck, for that matter they don't specify when they changed.

And wouldn't it be easier to wear a gi than to move to a different city? :)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
And SD never specifies what type of discriminatory law forced the change. Heck, for that matter they don't specify when they changed. Lack of specificity is the incriminating factor, not a saving grace.

[Judge Pen]

I'm just playing the hand that is dealt. :p

[MonkeySlap Too]

Actually, I buy the SD story about the uniforms - there is plenty of CMA groups that adopted JMA trappings during this period. I've written about this ad naseum elsewhere.

My sole contention, is that i think the historical claims of SD are complete BS, and that from what I've seen, there is no actual CMA in SD - it looks like Karate, no matter what CMA 'style' they are doing.

It could have been that Sin The' learned a karate/kun tao hybrid, then took a page from John C Kim and grafted on a bunch of stuff he didn't know or understand.

It is the inherent disingenuosness and outright falsehoods used to sell thier lessons that bugs me.

Do the search, this bores the cr@p out of me....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Actually, I buy the SD story about the uniforms - there is plenty of CMA groups that adopted JMA trappings during this period. I've written about this ad naseum elsewhere. What time period? Post 1965? The SD claim is that Ie Ching Men (or whatever) adopted the gis when he came to Indonesia, which would have been pre-1925 (maybe around 1905). I don't dispute the claim that they wear gis because of the law; I dispute the claim that the tradition goes back as far as SD says it does.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
And SD never specifies what type of discriminatory law forced the change. Heck, for that matter they don't specify when they changed.


Again, none of the SD literature specifies when this change would have been made. They just say after Ie moved to Indonesia. How long after is not detailed. While that may seem dubious it doesn't prove it any more false than true.

Man, there's a lot more to attack about SD than the Japanese uniforms which, at least, have some grounding of truth in Indonesia.

[norther practitioner]

Man, there's a lot more to attack about SD than the Japanese uniforms which, at least, have some grounding of truth in Indonesia.

I knew there was a reason I liked you... and it wasn't all the SW crap.

seriously, are we going there again?

[Judge Pen]

I hope not.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

i agree wit one of u guys about the forms..i forgot who and to lz to go back and read..who cares bout the uniform..seriously..it jus clothes..but there forms look like crap!..lolz so freaking ugly!!!..so karate/taekwondao like!
doesnt look nothing like shaolin(da one i study) or any hung gar/clf forms or anything like that..so ugly!!!! and for sure it doesnt look like wushu
lolz i was laughing so hard when i was watching some of there animals form..lolz SO UGLYYYYYY...AHH AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
how about we take them guys to li peng shaolin competition if he decides to hold it agian..and see how they do....=)

[Vash]

PK;

You should be assraped by the devil for typing like that.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

do u want to hate on my typing too??
the last guy who hated on my typing made a big fool out of him self..=)
but u seem cooler..so i will play along wit u..do u wat to assrape me??..=D =D

[Vash]

Originally posted by Pk_StyLeZ
do u want to hate on my typing too??

Hate on . . . .? You are not ghetto. Your spelling sucks. Your grasp of English is non-existent. And you're not ghetto. Hell, people from the ghetto don't talk like that, you complete and utter tool.



the last guy who hated on my typing made a big fool out of him self..=)

I doubt it.


but u seem cooler..so i will play along wit u..do u wat to assrape me??..=D =D

No. I want the devil to ass rape you.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

no one said i was ghetto...i never said i was ghetto..dis is jus da way i type..dis is jus the way i talk
i agree..my spellin do suck..my gramma aint good....i ait da best student in my english class either..."people from da ghetto dont talk like dis"..exactlly..dat why i aint ghetto..so why do u keep bringing up ghetto cuz i never said i was ghetto in the first place or trying to be ghetto or anything
u dont tink da last guy who hated on my made himself look like a fool..let me try to find the post and u read ur self
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32307
there go read..and look stupid dat guy looked wen he tried to insult my writing
o and this is quoted from gene "Calling someone down on their grammer is ridiculous here, sort of like calling someone down because their sparring gear is too gaudy colored."
soo BOO YA IN UR EYE

[Vash]

And your sparring gear is too **** pink.


For PK:

Dat's Just Da Wa I talk1!1 (http://www.wiggaz.com)

[Pk_StyLeZ]

ummm..i ama stop my self and not say anything else..before i get my self banned..cuz i never read the rules(and i was reading something about some people got bannned on another post so ya)..and i dont know wat can be said or cant..and i dont really want to be ban from here..so i ama let u go and enjoy ur life..cuz da last comment u left me..was jus plain.....GAY
have a nice life

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Again, none of the SD literature specifies when this change would have been made. They just say after Ie moved to Indonesia. How long after is not detailed. While that may seem dubious it doesn't prove it any more false than true.

Man, there's a lot more to attack about SD than the Japanese uniforms which, at least, have some grounding of truth in Indonesia. The gi argument is just a piece of the concerns about ALL the Japanese cultural connections, which in turn is directly related to the legitmacy of Sin's lineage claims to Shaolin.

Ie was born in 1880; At some point, he killed between 9 and 11 Chinese Army guards and was eventually forced into exile in Indonesia in either 1910 or 1928. CSC says 1910, SD says 1928. I have no idea why you guys disagree on this point.

At any rate, he was teaching Chinese Martial Arts at least 37 years before the only documented Chinese cultural ban (we currently have evidence of) in Indonesia was inacted. He opened a public school and taught for 37 years....and then one day changed his uniforms, terminology, and ranking system and everyone looked the other way?

Sin The' started training in 1950 when he was 7, so we know Ie was AT LEAST teaching by then, which is still 15 years before the ban.

Sheeeiiiit, Sin The' himself came to America 1964....a year before the ban was enacted. Besides...wouldn't training with Chinese weapons alert people you were learning a Chinese art?? :p

I also have no idea why CSC claims Ie died in 1968, and SD claims 1976. Or why CSC claims Sin The is Ie's grandson, and SD claims they are unrelated.

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by Pk_StyLeZ
ummm..i ama stop my self and not say anything else..before i get my self banned..cuz i never read the rules(and i was reading something about some people got bannned on another post so ya)..and i dont know wat can be said or cant..and i dont really want to be ban from here..so i ama let u go and enjoy ur life..cuz da last comment u left me..was jus plain.....GAY
have a nice life

These are for you buddy:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2002-10-11&res=l

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-07-07&res=l

[MonkeySlap Too]

MK,
Your date argument (1964) pretty much makes SD look completely bogus. However, you need to consider the syncretic nature of Indonesia. The Indonesians as a culture are highly adaptive, and sometimes a superficial change is adequate to satisfy most as a change. The laws against CMA and Chinese language also require Indonesian citizens of Chinese decent to have Indonesian names. The adoption of Bahasa Indonesia required the generic Chinese term in Indonesia (kun Tao) be replaced with a bahasa word (Silat). Which is why you see CMA called 'Silat' even though it isn't 'Silat' in the specific sense.

It was also common to see blending of CMA, JMA, and IMA in certain circles, because there were strong traditions of holding back (See Draegers "Weapons and Fighting Arts of The Indonesian Archipelago") - it is possible that this is the root of SD. But I doubt it based upon the technical skills I've seen from SD people.

All this aside, I'm convinced that SD is a fraud perpetrated by Sin The'. He is either a jovial con man whose great conditioning and decent karate skills allowed him to con unknowing Americans, or he's the biggest freaking idiot in the world and actually beleives his own stories. In either case, why would you want to follow him?

The footage of him moving was the clincher. While i have seen Kun Tao players do, say a mantis set that was obviously made up based on something else, it still had the content of that something else. SD just looks bad to me.

[Sin The']

Sin The's says the true value in this thread was the discovery of this page. (http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/)

[Golden Tiger]

Yes, I am still out here. I got a bit bored so I figured I would catch up on what was happening here in the world of keyboard sparring.

Anyway..... The video clip that MK is refering to is not one of our forms. Actually, it is bits and pieces of a few of them that Master Sin did for a video trailer that he made to send to a movie company. (Insert your comments as you see fit)

The moves come from Tang Lang Chien, Tang Lang Tse Dju and a few others. They are not from the Mantis forms that he began teaching a few years ago.

Now, whether you like the way it looks or not, thats up to you. Just wanted to explain the origin of the clip.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Doesn't change the fact that he moves like someone who doesn't know CMA.

[Wildwoo]

The moves come from Tang Lang Chien, Tang Lang Tse Dju and a few others. They are not from the Mantis forms that he began teaching a few years ago.

Now, whether you like the way it looks or not, thats up to you. Just wanted to explain the origin of the clip.

Is'nt Tang Lang Preying Mantis? I am confused and a littlel nausie.

WWII

[Ralphie]

wow, haven't visited this site for a while, and yet the more things change...

[pest]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
lets not forget all the other styles that are of shaolin heritage as well:

Hung Kuen
Choy Li Fut
Wing chun
Preying Mantis

subsets of these and many more.

My understanding was Praying mantis was created by a monk named wong long and brought in to shaolin because of its efficiency :confused: Please correct me if im wrong.

[trilobite]

Dear Jesus.

Put this to rest.

No one really cares, and if you do, you're wasting your own effing time.

Shut the fark up and train.

[mr.marshal art]

Originally posted by trilobite

Dear Jesus.

Put this to rest.

No one really cares, and if you do, you're wasting your own effing time.

Shut the fark up and train.

AMEN
-mr.marshal art

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by trilobite
Dear Jesus.

Put this to rest.

No one really cares, and if you do, you're wasting your own effing time.

Shut the fark up and train. Did you turn 15 yet? Get any cool Power Rangers for your birthday?

[Fu-Pow]

Since this is a SD bashing thread I at least had to get a post in here somewhere.....

Hope you enjoyed it. :D ;) :cool:

[Shaolinlueb]

uuuuugh waaaaaa

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Since this is a SD bashing thread I at least had to get a post in here somewhere.....

Hope you enjoyed it. :D ;) :cool:

This was your most enjoyable SD bashing post to date Fu Pow.

[Meat Shake]

rofl....
holy sh!t... blackpeopleloveus.com...
Thats some funny sh!t.

[yu shan]

I have met and trained with you. And you are straight-up with SD. I`m empressed with your Teachers openness to allow you to test the waters, this is a good thing. How do I say this... once you pick up a new form, is it incorporated into SD? I only ask this because of the hundreds of forms you guys and gals have. BTW, how is your knee doing? Anytime your in Music City, bang me a call... doesnt hurt the knee to do hand drills :D

[Judge Pen]

Any form I learn from another source is mine and does not become a part of SD. I've heard that some advanced students went to China and Indonesia with Master Sin The' and learned from some of his contemporaries, as they called them, over there and some of those forms are now taught. 99% comes from Master Sin and, at one time his brother. I don't know of any instance where a teacher picked up a form that was then passed off as an SD form. It's possible, of course, but I don't know of any instance.

For instance, Master Sin just taught out a BaGua dao form (I didn't learn or see it). According to him he learned it when he was 18 and put about 70 hours into polishing it before he taught it at a seminar.

As for Nashville, I'm not dating that girl there anymore, but I can plan for a special trip any Saturday I'm open. It will have to be after my knee surgery though as my weekends are all tied up until then.

[Fred Sanford]

To answer the original question. No it's not for real.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
To answer the original question. No it's not for real.

you get 2 snaps and a twist for staying on topic :o :D ;) :p

[BentMonk]

Shaolin Do is as real as any other art. It has great instructors, good instructors, and mediocre instructors just like any other art. Neither is all the debate about material and lineage exclusive to Shaolin Do. Read ANY Wing Chun thread and you'll see that. Go to a school and check it out. If you like it stay. If not, go somewhere else. If your sole basis for oppinion on anything is what you read on the internet, you will never get a complete picture of what you're interested in. Besides, the trolls around here get whiny without a good SD thread to play on once a month. Peace.

[omarthefish]

No.

Tis is not about a lineae debate. WC people arue over wo learned a more complete sytem or wo's version is better.

Te Saolin Do tin is completely fabricated.

And I am not tryin to be etto. Certain letters are no loner workin on my keyboard.

[cerebus]

LOL! And for a minute there I thought you'd been possessed by the spirit of blooming lotus!! :p :p :p

[Golden Tiger]

Omar, If I am not mistaken, Master Sin and a group of SD students will be visiting Xi'an next year on their trip to China. I also think that they will be doing some demonstrations at one of the local schools. Feel free to visit and test your theory that SD is not real. Should be a real crowd pleaser....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Omar, If I am not mistaken, Master Sin and a group of SD students will be visiting Xi'an next year on their trip to China. I also think that they will be doing some demonstrations at one of the local schools. Feel free to visit and test your theory that SD is not real. Should be a real crowd pleaser.... Yeah, and I bet some really old Chinese men will pull them aside again and tell them that they are practicing the old way, just like when they were young...:rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

Round and round this thread goes; where it end. . . Please let it end. I'm dizzy.

Seriously Omar, go and check them out, ask questions etc. Mk, I never did e-mail Coach He on that. I figured that even if she did say something to that effect, it could be easily discounted by some as "just being polite."

[Fred Sanford]

Once we can all just agree that shaolin-do is not for real then it can all end.

[Judge Pen]

That's the dig, Fred. It's for real something. For real shaolin kung fu, for real kung fu, for real kung tao, for real karate, for real kempo, for real made up AMA, for real BS. . . . That's the question.

Even then, can it be learned and taught effectively? Can people fight using it? Does it have value as a system even if it's not what some people say it is? I appreciate your strong feelings on it, and we could argue till the cows come home but nothing will be resolved. People are going to believe what they want to, right?

[Fred Sanford]

I think the whole lot of y'all have been conned and I'd imagine it's a bit hard to accept. tragic.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Omar, If I am not mistaken, Master Sin and a group of SD students will be visiting Xi'an next year on their trip to China. I also think that they will be doing some demonstrations at one of the local schools. Feel free to visit and test your theory that SD is not real. Should be a real crowd pleaser....

Master Killer just may be riht but if he isn't...how exactly am I supposed to test tis "theory"? A death match? You do realize that what's beein disputed it the whole Su Kon Jin story and their alleed link to Shaolin. They could be really good figters and really cool to watch but they still would not be real shaolin.

But rest assured..if they come to Xi'an I WILL see them in person and I will even try to bring my Shifu along.

Their story has more holes than a screen door. The monkey man is wearing a western suit in a pre-industrial China for gods sake. He trained at a temple that hadn't had monks in it for 200 years. They think all the internal arts of northern China are part of Shaolin. Nothing about their story makes sense. "Shaolin" as a home of Chinese gong fu had been dead since the late Qing dynasty and all the monks there now are those that were either hired or invited back.

If you enjoy the training...fine.

You will proably even learn some really nice Kenpo Karate to defend yourself with. Nothing wrong with that. I don't know what else to say on it.

[mr.marshal art]

Know what you know.
Know what you don't know.
Know the difference.

i like your sig. reminds me of the ancient riff:
those that know seem not to know,
those that don't pretend they do...
-marshal

[MonkeySlap Too]

Anybody want to take up a cololection to buy Omar a video camera?

I'd take odds on the BaJi vs. SD match, but i'm not sure how to time tenths of a second...

[Judge Pen]

Nice post Omar. Let me know what you think when you watch them. And try to get names of the performers that you watch.

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Their story has more holes than a screen door. The monkey man is wearing a western suit in a pre-industrial China for gods sake.

I would like to point ou that the famous revolutionary Sun Yat-Sen, a contemporary of Su Kong Tai Djin, is pictured here (http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Sun%20Yat%20Sen.jpg)
wearing a western suit.

[MasterKiller]

I would like to point ou that the famous revolutionary Sun Yat-Sen, a contemporary of Su Kong Tai Djin, is pictured here
wearing a western suit.

Sun Yat Sen was the founder and first president of the Chinese Republic. He was born in 1867 and died in 1925. Whilst studying medicine in Hong Kong he took part in a revolutionary plot in 1895 and upon its discovery fled to England. He was captured in 1896 by the Chinese Legation in London and held prisoner until his release was demanded by the Prime Minister. In 1905 he founded the China Revolutionary League in Europe and Japan and played a large part in the revolution of 1911.

Did Su Kong ever visit England, per chance?

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Sun Yat Sen was the founder and first president of the Chinese Republic. He was born in 1867 and died in 1925. Whilst studying medicine in Hong Kong he took part in a revolutionary plot in 1895 and upon its discovery fled to England. He was captured in 1896 by the Chinese Legation in London and held prisoner until his release was demanded by the Prime Minister. In 1905 he founded the China Revolutionary League in Europe and Japan and played a large part in the revolution of 1911.

Did Su Kong ever visit England, per chance?

Well, according to this (http://english.people.com.cn/200409/14/eng20040914_156951.html)
" A shred of new life emerged between the 1920s and 1930s. Exhibits of that period are dominated by suits and hats of western styles, one-piece dresses stitched with flat beads, and wool-velvet overcoats. Palm-sized lotus shoes for women gave way to high-heeled leather shoes. "

So who knows? I certainly wasn't there.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by mr.marshal art
i like your sig. reminds me of the ancient riff:
those that know seem not to know,
those that don't pretend they do...
-marshal

I'm not sure where you got that one but it sounds like maybee a loose translation of the Tao De Jing passage that says:

Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.

But mine is from the Analects, except I think I slightly modified the last line because I couldn't think how to translate it more accurately without making it really long and unwieldy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on the topic though....since it's so much fun!

Aside from what has just been mentioned about Sun Yat Sen's time in England, yes, it's true they were starting to adopt western clothing in that time. But Plaid sportcoats (as The "Monkey King" is pictured wearing" were still a long ways off.

"Western Clothing" of the era included things like....hats.

Or sunglasses.

And western clothing was still basically only worn by the aristocracy or anyone else with the cash to go and study abroad.

But mainly....ponder these 2 words: Plaid Sportcoat.

[mr.marshal art]

Originally posted by omarthefish

I'm not sure where you got that one but it sounds like maybee a loose translation of the Tao De Jing passage that says:
Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.


i found the quote in a copy of the tao te ching. i don't remember who translated it.
your translation is more interesting.
-marshal

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
Well, according to this (http://english.people.com.cn/200409/14/eng20040914_156951.html)
" A shred of new life emerged between the 1920s and 1930s. Exhibits of that period are dominated by suits and hats of western styles, one-piece dresses stitched with flat beads, and wool-velvet overcoats. Palm-sized lotus shoes for women gave way to high-heeled leather shoes. " Yeah, and Su Kong supposedly died in 1928, at the age of 79. You saying he's between 71 and 79 in that picture? Besides...he was in Indonesia by that time, not China, remember?

[lxtruong]

How could you possibly tell what age he is, with hair covering his face? He could be 79 or 179.

Also, from what I know, Su Kong was not the one that fled to Indonesia, it was Ie Chang Ming that fled.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
How could you possibly tell what age he is, with hair covering his face? He could be 79 or 179. You ever see a 79-year-old that had naturally dark hair?

Also, from what I know, Su Kong was not the one that fled to Indonesia, it was Ie Chang Ming that fled. My bad. Between SD, Temple Kung Fu and Shaolin Kempo, sometimes I get my fake Southern Temple systems confused.

[Judge Pen]

I've never seen a 79 year old with that dark hair, but I've also never seen another 79 year old with that genetic condition either. I thought his coat was pinstripe not plaid...

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
You ever see a 79-year-old that had naturally dark hair?


I don't hang around 80 year old men. Do thier eyebrows and armhairs change color? No idea.


Originally posted by MasterKiller

My bad. Between SD, Temple Kung Fu and Shaolin Kempo, sometimes I get my fake Southern Temple systems confused.

Wow! What a zinger!

[brothernumber9]

There was a coach/Sifu that demonstrated at NACMAF in 92 or 93. His name excapes me (I think surname was Xia) but I think if anyone else was there they would also remember him, and maybe his name. He was in his seventies then and had jet black hair. He performed a tai ji form, a baat gua form, and a hsing yi form back to back to back. He was also famous for having defeated a russian in a public lei tai match after the russian had beat up a few locals and was publicly slandering Chinese people.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I've never seen a 79 year old with that dark hair, but I've also never seen another 79 year old with that genetic condition either. I thought his coat was pinstripe not plaid...

Pinstripes are just as out of place.

And on the hair issue....Brotha9......

People die their hair.

My Shifu is in his mid 60's and has a full head of black hair but you can tell it's not died because IF you are close enough, you can see it's not completely black. There are white hairs here and there just like I have if you look for them.

I've not seen anyone in their 70's YET with dark hair. In another 5 years or so I may see....but so far I think my current Shifu holds the record at about 63.

[Sin The']

Shao-Lin Do is so real it's unreal. It's all in your mind, not the airwaves or electrons. Free your minds of this unsanity and the fist will follow. Put away your doubts of my ancestors along with your SUVs and Luke Skywalkers for Sin The' will illumine the true way.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Sin The'
Shao-Lin Do is so real it's unreal. It's all in your mind, not the airwaves or electrons. Free your minds of this unsanity and the fist will follow. Put away your doubts of my ancestors along with your SUVs and Luke Skywalkers for Sin The' will illumine the true way.

:D

[Songshan]

Well, I have read the threads checked the internet in regards to Shaolin-do. To answer the question is Shaolin-Do real? Yes. Is it real Shaolin? No. With respect to anyone who trains in Shaolin-do I must say that I am convinced that it is martial arts but not in the sense of it being directly a descendent of the Songshan Shaolin Temple where the historical roots of Shaolin are based out of. I will say that there are probably hundreds of abled "martial artists" studying shaolin-do (meaning that it's not to be called fake). I just don't agree that it has direct lineage to the Shaolin Temple.

I base this decision out of the history and "katas" (mind you a japanese term) that are listed in some of the Shaolin-do web sites. I view Shaolin-do as mainly a karate oriented blend of various styles of martial arts. Absent from the "katas" list are traditional Shaolin kung fu forms (Tong bei chuan, Da hong chuan, mei hua chuan, etc.). I didn't even see traditional excercises like Jin Gang Quan, Yi Jin Jing or Xi Sui Jing listed. :confused:

I must have seen at least 50+ forms listed for the Shaolin-do system on one of those websites (and yes the 90 form debate we seen here on these forums). The reality is that most of the Shaolin Monks were only true masters of one maybe two forms tops (but had knowledge of many). I know the debate rages on about other styles of kung fu being directly called "Shaolin" and yes I am sure it will go on. There are those too that say the monks in America are fake and so forth. In some sense I often say to myself when will all these debates end? Martial Arts is such a broad term that I believe every and any style has its place so long as its theory and application have been tested. Lets face it.....anyone can do just about anything and call it a martial art. I often fail to see why so many seek to control the term "Shaolin" and exploit it. Perhaps I clearly understand the trademark battle Shaolin is in with Abbot Shi Yong Xin

That being said... I by no means consider myself a master, expert or a self proclaimed disciple of a monk. I am just but a fish in the ocean. I post this with respect to the Shaolin-do practitioners and by no means do I have any intentions of degrading the art. :)

[cerebus]

Actually they claim to descend from the Fukien Shaolin temple and to have 900 forms, not 90. Other than that, yeah I agree with you.

[Shaolinlueb]

well put songshan. well put.

[pedro_sanchez]

hello all. I am currently a moderator at another martial arts website. I greet you all respectfully. Just a brief background on my martial arts. I trained in boxing for quite a number of years, and I am currently a student of Shaolin 5 animals, Jeet Kune Do and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu.

On the other website, we have had more than a couple of run-ins with the Shaolin-do goof troop. They have been nothing more than trolls who contributed nothing to our website. They claim, until they are blue in the face that they are Shaolin. Even thought they wear Japanese Uniforms, use the belt ranking system and use Japanese terms for thier techniques. Through some great research from one of our other moderators, we have managed to find a website with some video clips of Shaolin-do training. The videos were all sped up to make it look like they had superhuman speed. A pretty lame attempt at that. They would even speed up a very badly coreographed "sparring" session. The members of Shaolin-do were so disrespectful and so not like a student of Shaolin. They call themselves senior students but act more like pre school children. The resorted to poking fun at another moderator whose 1st language wasn't english. The made fun of his grammar and spelling. When in fact there was nothing wrong with his grammar. The Shaolin-do students were just being petty.

My wish is not to start a new stay on this forum on a negative note, but I have had more than a few run-ins with these clowns. When I saw a thread about them here, I was surprised.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by pedro_sanchez
When I saw a thread about them here, I was surprised. Do a Search and give yourself an annurism. There are 100s of threads about them. :D

[norther practitioner]

with the Shaolin-do goof troop

I like this one... :D

No disrespect to JP, but that was funny.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Just to offer a little balance on the subject I've got to say that in my limited exposure to Shaolin-Do practitioners I've found them to be hard working, good people. While the origins of the art may be questionable the practitioners (mostly Sifu level) I've met are much better people than some of the posters I've seen here. I visited a local school to see for myself and was impressed with the effort they put into their training. I can't speak on the value of the techniques or legitimacy of the sets but the players were very passionate about their training. And I have yet to see any SD guys on this site acting childish and insulting to other. Then again I haven't followed the past threads so I could be wrong.

(stepping down off soapbox)

[BentMonk]

Thanks Hua. While I appreciate Pedro's frustration w/the SD folks he's had to deal with, he made some very broad generalizations in his post. To judge all by the actions of a few is "so not like a student of Shaolin". Not all SD schools or students are alike. Peace and happiness to all.

[pedro_sanchez]

Originally posted by BentMonk
Thanks Hua. While I appreciate Pedro's frustration w/the SD folks he's had to deal with, he made some very broad generalizations in his post. To judge all by the actions of a few is "so not like a student of Shaolin". Not all SD schools or students are alike. Peace and happiness to all.

Thanks for the respect you've shown in this post. I try not to make generalizations about other schools, however these folks came as ambassadors of SD. Lets just say the members of the other forum were not impressed by their first impressions. It is however, refreshing to see such tolerance and respect shown by the members on this forum. Well from what I've seen so far.

[BentMonk]

"...these folks came as ambassadors of SD."

Pedro do you know which school these people are from? Anyone who has practiced Shaolin Do for any length of time is well aware of the issues many in the MA community have concerning our art. I have made peace with these issues. My instructors have delivered all that I have asked of them and more. That is all anyone can ask from any teacher of any art. I wasted a lot of time and band width in debates concerning SD. I now try to type less, train more, and use the net MA community as a source of knowledge. I hope the SD students on the other forum come to this realization soon. Peace.

[pedro_sanchez]

Originally posted by BentMonk
"...these folks came as ambassadors of SD."

Pedro do you know which school these people are from? Anyone who has practiced Shaolin Do for any length of time is well aware of the issues many in the MA community have concerning our art. I have made peace with these issues. My instructors have delivered all that I have asked of them and more. That is all anyone can ask from any teacher of any art. I wasted a lot of time and band width in debates concerning SD. I now try to type less, train more, and use the net MA community as a source of knowledge. I hope the SD students on the other forum come to this realization soon. Peace.

Hopefully they will budz. And these practitioners of SD actually came from Kentucky.

[yu shan]

I have no problem with SD, let them make there mark. If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO

[BentMonk]

"If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO"

You speaks da truth Yu Shan. :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by yu shan
If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO But there would be no safe place for hot Asian women to hide. :eek:

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
But there would be no safe place for hot Asian women to hide. :eek:

so true MK. they can always hide by me then :o :p

[Judge Pen]

You go and have knee surgery and see what happens to these threads. . . :D

A couple of comments:

1. Pedro Sanchez: I think I've read the thread that you were discussing and I'm sorry if some SD students didn't represent themselves well. However, that can be said for any style that has people that feel passionately about their art. I've been flamed away just because I study SD and not say BJJ, but I don't judge the art based upon the rantings of an anonymous internet "ambassador."

2. Songshan: I know where you are coming from. But I do practice traditional exercises like Ie Ching Chin (to use the SD spelling). And the japanization of SD has been debated ad naseuam and doesn't mean much to me. What you wear doesn't dictate what you train and, for what its worth, my school wears Chinese uniforms. It doesn't make us more legitimate than any other SD school. And belt ranks, unfortunately, are a product of American expectations for setting goals and identifying accomplishment.

3. Yu Shan and Hua Lin: Thanks for the kind words about SD. I wish more people shared your perspective. I like to think that I work hard regardless of arguments of lineage and origin.

4. MK and shaolinlueb: Speaking of which, I have a new girlfriend. . . .

[Songshan]

Originally posted by Judge Pen

2. Songshan: I know where you are coming from. But I do practice traditional exercises like Ie Ching Chin (to use the SD spelling). And the japanization of SD has been debated ad naseuam and doesn't mean much to me. What you wear doesn't dictate what you train and, for what its worth, my school wears Chinese uniforms. It doesn't make us more legitimate than any other SD school. And belt ranks, unfortunately, are a product of American expectations for setting goals and identifying accomplishment.


Yeah, I hear you. I agree with what you wear doesn't dictate what style you train. I do feel that what style you train dictates what you represent. As it has been said a hundred times before, "Shaolin" is a very broad term that just about any style of MA can pretty much say they are Shaolin based. Lets face it, the real Shaolin vs none Shaolin, real monk vs fake monk debates probably don't mean a hell of a lot to the average martial artist. There are tons of martial artists that probably read these posts and say why the heck does the name Shaolin matter anyway? It does mean something to the ones like myself that do train in Shaolin that are not just learning Wushu. I grow tired of reading about "Shaolin is just wushu" stuff. There IS a difference. It's just up to you if whether or not you want to search for the answers.

Getting back to the post....the belt ranks, American expectations, and the japanese term association changes what real traditional Shaolin represents. I believe when you change something, modify or add new things the traditional aspect is lost. I see this in many "Shaolin" named styles. I recognize some of the moves as Shaolin kung fu but the rest was either added or modified. I don't see a problem with certain styles changing certain things...it just shouldn't be called Shaolin. So now that Shaolin is in a middle of a trademark battle it will be interesting to see what comes out of it. :p

[Judge Pen]

I see SD has having roots in shaolin, but almost any style can say that. So it's called shaolin-"do" (which is a japanese term but pronouned and means the same as tao a Chinese term.) So they name acknowledges that it is a way of shaolin. Is it the only way? Apparently not. Has it been modified? All you have to do is look at the material and how it is performed to know the answer to that. It's changed and evolved differently. It has incorporated techniques and forms that aren't traditional shaolin. But, in my experience it is effective for art, health, and martial ability. It is kung fu that has evolved through a path from China to Indonesia to Kentucky. And things change with time.

[canglong]

The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all.
Shaolin study to be complete must encompass
1.) Chan philosophy
2.) Martial Art
3.) Health

For a martial art to be Shaolin, it has to address all three treasures of Shaolin. Each of these treasures can be broken down:

A. Three Treasures of Chan (Also refered to as the three refuges)
1. Buddha (Master)
2. Dharma (Teaching, doctrines)
3. Sangha (family/community)

B. Three Treasures of Shaolin Martial Arts
1. Gong Fa (Specialized Skill)
2. Tao Lu (Sets/ patterns)
3. Ge Dou (Fighting)

C. Three Treasures of Health
1. Essence (Jing)
2. Energy (Qi)
3. Spirit (Shen)

This is considered the recognized standard for all Shaolin not just Shaolin-Do.