Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Radhnoti]

Nice to hear your perspective on this WhiteEarp. Please don't be insulted when SD detractors claim you only exist as an alternative persona of someone studying shaolin-do. :D

[lunghushan]

So I decided to take a break from the White Tiger troll war and say that I think Shaolin-Do is decidedly fake.

All of you people claiming Shaolin-Do are really just one guy with a broadband internet connection and Photoshop who has a lot of time on his hands, creating images of schools, people training, seminars and all of that, and a ton of websites, to continue perpetuating this hoax.

So there.:D

[kwaichang]

Hey Lung the invite to come to Tennessee is still here. You know I figured you would finish your last post with NANA POO POO . kc

[lunghushan]

Hey Lung the invite to come to Tennessee is still here. You know I figured you would finish your last post with NANA POO POO . kc

I've almost got some people convinced that Chinese are really eskimos too, and China is really a big city up by Alaska. I just gotta get some video documentary evidence done, but I should have it put together by tonight.

[Baqualin]

So I decided to take a break from the White Tiger troll war and say that I think Shaolin-Do is decidedly fake.

All of you people claiming Shaolin-Do are really just one guy with a broadband internet connection and Photoshop who has a lot of time on his hands, creating images of schools, people training, seminars and all of that, and a ton of websites, to continue perpetuating this hoax.

So there.:D

LUNG....your slipping.....your usually better at aggravating than this;)
BQ

[MasterKiller]

Nice to hear your perspective on this WhiteEarp. Please don't be insulted when SD detractors claim you only exist as an alternative persona of someone studying shaolin-do. :D

I don't think anyone will doubt his credulity, especially if he actually posts photographs. What is funny is that A) his teacher called Ie Ching Men Sin The's father and B) that he says he never heard the "wild claims" from Shaolin-Do. Which could mean that Hiang The' is correct in stating they were related to Ie, and that the "youngest grandmaster in the history of Shaolin" story was fabricated by Sin, which is what everyone has been saying anyway--he learned some martial arts, inflated his credentials, and packaged it to whitey.

I mean, if this guy studied with Ie until he was 83, he should have certainly heard about the amazing feats of Sin The', right?

Or it could just be a wild goose chase. But this is certainly an interesting discovery. I am anxious to see the photos.

[lunghushan]

LUNG....your slipping.....your usually better at aggravating than this;)
BQ

Or maybe you guys are so used to criticism that any new thing, no matter how preposterous, you don't mind anymore. ;)

Okay, I have a new one. Shaolin-Do is a secret Martian plot to control the earth through propagating a martial cult of martial arts groupies. Sin The is obviously a Martian. That's why he is always wearing sun glasses, because life on Mars is hidden deep underground, and Martians aren't used to getting so much sun, so he wears the sunglasses to protect his eyes because even through his disguise the light filters through.

What about that? :p

[Judge Pen]

Or maybe you guys are so used to criticism that any new thing, no matter how preposterous, you don't mind anymore. ;)

Okay, I have a new one. Shaolin-Do is a secret Martian plot to control the earth through propagating a martial cult of martial arts groupies. Sin The is obviously a Martian. That's why he is always wearing sun glasses, because life on Mars is hidden deep underground, and Martians aren't used to getting so much sun, so he wears the sunglasses to protect his eyes because even through his disguise the light filters through.

What about that? :p


You have us confused with the Moo.

[lunghushan]

You have us confused with the Moo.

No, the Moo is a human sized subterranean termite. After the humans are gone, the Moo will battle with the Do for control of the solar system.

[Shaolin Wookie]

...and packaged it to whitey.

:D :D :D :D :D

[WhiteEarp]

Okay well i've got permission but i somehow must figure out how to resize them:S you can only post pictures that are 100 Kb:S
Oh and btw, i allready feel a little bit of hostility here. Pleas do not confuse Sifu Decramer with Shaolin-Do. He is in no way affiliated to this group or what they're about. And yes the pictures are real. They're comin' up.

[Crushing Fist]

WhiteEarp-

If you are using Windows you can resize the photos with "Paint" which can be found in the "Accessories" under "All Programs" from "Start"

In Paint open the photo then click on the "Image" command and click on Stretch/Skew in the submenu

In the top part labeled "stretch" enter new values for Horizontal and Vertical %

something around 10-20% depending on the original size of the photo should be good. When you click "OK" the ew image size will be displayed. Now go to "file" "save as..." and choose a new name so you don't save over the original.


easy. :)


you could also look at getting Picasa from google. It's free and is very good at handling images.


edit: also make sure to save as type: "jpeg" if it isn't already

[NJM]

I found proof that Shaolin-Do is fake!

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/325/shaolindong8.jpg

[lunghushan]

I found proof that Shaolin-Do is fake!

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/325/shaolindong8.jpg

See!!! See!!! I would post my expose on the China/Eskimo coverup, but unfortunately it was stolen by aliens last night while I was sleeping. I fully expect them to abduct me if the subterranean termite cult doesn't get me first. This will likely be my last transmission.

[brucereiter]

Okay well i've got permission but i somehow must figure out how to resize them:S you can only post pictures that are 100 Kb:S
Oh and btw, i allready feel a little bit of hostility here. Pleas do not confuse Sifu Decramer with Shaolin-Do. He is in no way affiliated to this group or what they're about. And yes the pictures are real. They're comin' up.

hi white earp ...

is the below information from your teacher/schools website?
i am looking forward to hearing more from you ... ignore the hostility ...

best,

b


Translated via http://babelfish.altavista.com/

http://members.chello.nl/h.kreijtz/Kung-Fu.html
http://members.chello.nl/h.kreijtz/decramer.html#


Een leven vol Kung Fu
Als je Fred Decramer op de praatstoel hebt is het net of je in een spannend boek verzeild bent geraakt. De een na de andere prachtige anekdote geïllustreerd met heftige gebaren passeert de revue. Over zijn tijd in een klooster in Indo-China alwaar Fred, op 22 jarige leeftijd, zijn eerste ondericht kreeg het Kung-Fu. Of over zijn verblijf in Thailand als o.a. natuurgenezer en muzikant. Maar ook over de geschiedenis van het Kung-Fu in Nederland en
en-passant de historie van het Kenpo wat hij trainde bij o.a de legendarische Sifu Meijer.
Hoewel Fred Decramer meerder stijlen beheerst ligt de nadruk in zijn lessen toch het meest op de bewegelijke aapstijl (How Chuen). Wellicht is het door deze soepele stijl dat je hem zijn 63 jaren in leeftijd niet aanziet. Tijdens de lessen van Si-fu Decramer leer je naast een uitmuntende techniek ook allerlij trivia over de geschiedenis en land van herkomst van het Kung-Fu.

A life full Kung Fu if you Fred have Decramer on the praatstoel is it exactly or sailed have touched you in stretching a book. After the other splendid anecdote illustrated with violent gestures the revue passes. Over its time in a convent in indo-China alwaar Fred, on 22 person whose birthday it is age, first ondericht got Kung-Fu are. Or concerning its stay in thailand as among other things natuurgenezer and muzikant. But also concerning the history of Kung-Fu in the Netherlands and en-passant the historie of the Kenpo what he trained the legendary Sifu Meijer at o.a. Although Fred Decramer greater master styles the emphasis in its lessons lies nevertheless most on bewegelijke the monkey style (How Chuen). Possibly are it by this smooth style that you him are 63 years in age do not consider. During the lessons of Si-fu Decramer learn you beside an excelling technique also allerlij trivia concerning the history and country of origin of Kung-Fu.

http://members.chello.nl/h.kreijtz/Kung-Fu.html
KUNG FU
Grondlegger: onbekend. Land van oorsprong: China

Aangezien Kung Fu enkele duizenden jaren geleden is ontstaan, is de oorsprong niet te achterhalen. Kung Fu-stijlen zijn vaak aan dieren ontleend, zoals de stijl van de aap of de tijger. Slechts enkele specialiseren zich in meerdere dieren of stijlen. Een bekende, veelal door monnikken beoefende en verspreide stijl is het Shaolin. Het Shaolin klooster werd eind 5e eeuw in China gesticht. Andere bekende stijlen zijn onder andere het Wu Shu en Wing Chun. Kung-Fu is overigens de Chinese benaming voor ‘beheersen van’; zo kan men eigenlijk net zo goed spreken van Kung Fu van koken, een chéf-kok dus. Kung-Fu wordt ook wel Chinees boksen genoemd; er zijn honderden vormen en miljoenen beoefenaars verspreid over de hele wereld.

Founder: unknown. Country of origin: China Since Kung Fu some are suffered thousands of years have arisen, the origin is not retrieve. Kung Fu-stijlen have been frequently borrowed from animals, such as the style of the monkey or the tiger. Only some specialise themselves in several animals or styles. An acquaintance, mostly practised monnikken and spread style is the Shaolin. The Shaolin convent end 5e was founded centuries in China. Other well-known styles are among other things the Wu Shu and Wing Chun. Kung-Fu are moreover the denomination Chinese for ` master of; thus one can speak in fact just as well of Kung Fu of to cook, chéf-kok therefore. Kung-Fu become also Chinese box mentioned; there its hundreds of forms and millions beoefenaars spread concerning the complete world.

[Judge Pen]

Okay well i've got permission but i somehow must figure out how to resize them:S you can only post pictures that are 100 Kb:S
Oh and btw, i allready feel a little bit of hostility here. Pleas do not confuse Sifu Decramer with Shaolin-Do. He is in no way affiliated to this group or what they're about. And yes the pictures are real. They're comin' up.

WhiteEarp; no one is confusing you with Shaolin-do. Everyone here is interested is learning more of Ie Chang Ming and the material he taught. If your teacher did train with Ie Chang Ming, then that is major news for people who train in SD as one of the major arguments that SD is not legitimate is that no one else references Ie Chang Ming or the fabled Su Kong Tai Djing. If you r teacher did train with him, and you are of the opinion that the material he learned is legitimate kung fu, then that is one more piece of the SD puzzle filled in by an independant source. GM The is still going to be a controversial figure and no one is going to link you or your teacher with him beyond the Ie Chang Ming connection. It appears that your teacher trained with Master Ie after Sin and Hiang The came to the states.

As for hostility, some are worse than others, but typically most people have intelligent and respectul conversations about SD etc.

[tattooedmonk]

I think I've respectfully discussed this matter and expressed my opinions. In summery, all the SD I've seen in videos combined with the lineage, stories, etc lead me to feel that Shaolin Do isn't CMA but I'm done debating for now at least. The topic of whether SD is CMA or isn't CMA has been debated back and forth for a seemingly endless number of pages in this thread so if you're interested in seeing the arguments, evidence, opinions, insults, jokes, etc they are all there to read. Although that's not something I'd want to do lol. The thing I find ironic is that it's the largest, most active thread in the KFM forums (correct me if I'm wrong Gene!) and it was started by an account with only 1 post! I believe Judge Pen pointed this out many pages ago but I'm not going to dig that up. :D so once again why is it not CMA????

[The Xia]

so once again why is it not CMA????
lunghushan spilled the beans. It's MMA.......Martian Martial Arts! :p

[kwaichang]

Ok guys,
1 only about 10 people post consistently about SD
2 those who are not SD post opinions w/o empirical evidence that they know what they are talking about.
3 SD has been around in the US in one form or name or another since 1968 almost 40 years
4 those , not SD have studied under 1-3 instructors and thus voice their opinions
5 average age of poster approx 32 years old.
6 SD has over 4000 practitioners
7 average education level of SD practioners ,at least high school and 2 years of college
8 SD history disproven NO
9 SD techniques proven YES
10 techniques included in the SD system similarity noted with other "TCMA"
There are many other points but SD is real and is TCMA and has stood the ravages of time and not been disproven KC

[Baqualin]

Ok guys,
1 only about 10 people post consistently about SD
2 those who are not SD post opinions w/o empirical evidence that they know what they are talking about.
3 SD has been around in the US in one form or name or another since 1968 almost 40 years
4 those , not SD have studied under 1-3 instructors and thus voice their opinions
5 average age of poster approx 32 years old.
6 SD has over 4000 practitioners
7 average education level of SD practioners ,at least high school and 2 years of college
8 SD history disproven NO
9 SD techniques proven YES
10 techniques included in the SD system similarity noted with other "TCMA"
There are many other points but SD is real and is TCMA and has stood the ravages of time and not been disproven KC

GMS started teaching before 68.....it's over 40 now....for your records.;)
BQ

[Baqualin]

lunghushan spilled the beans. It's MMA.......Martian Martial Arts! :p
Hey Xia,
Thanks for stopping in, I've been reading some of your post lately....good job.
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

Okay well i've got permission but i somehow must figure out how to resize them:S you can only post pictures that are 100 Kb:S
Oh and btw, i allready feel a little bit of hostility here. Pleas do not confuse Sifu Decramer with Shaolin-Do. He is in no way affiliated to this group or what they're about. And yes the pictures are real. They're comin' up.

Hmmmmm........So much for the pictures I guess.

When I saw this post and the guy mentioned, "i allready feel a little bit of hostility here" I kinda knew there were no pictures.

[MasterKiller]

Ok guys,
7 average education level of SD practioners ,at least high school and 2 years of college

Um....I'll call bullsh1t on this one. I would venture 50% or more are kids under 16, just like every other martial arts school on the planet.

Unless of course you have the stats to back it up.

WHITE EARP-
I can resize the photos for you. Send me a PM if you are interested and I'll supply an email address.

[The Willow Sword]

it wont be made. How can it? The movie has been talked about for YEARS and still nothing. i think that it could be made if the facts about Su kong IE :Li baoshu are set straight. I would imagine that there are several reasons that we are not privey to as to why this movie has never been made. I would guess, ONE big reason is the controversy over The Fukien shaolin temple, and of course Li baoshu,not to mention SD's rep in this country.
Also, you have to wonder about how a movie like this would stand up to movies like HERO and FEARLESS and GOLDEN ARMOUR, CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON etc etc.

Seems to me that a SD movie would have the same calibre as say "GymKata" or "American Ninja":D . it would fall in the category of a B rated Underground movie and prolly not a very good one at that.

Peace,TWS

[Shaolin Wookie]

WhiteEarp; no one is confusing you with Shaolin-do. Everyone here is interested is learning more of Ie Chang Ming and the material he taught. If your teacher did train with Ie Chang Ming, then that is major news for people who train in SD as one of the major arguments that SD is not legitimate is that no one else references Ie Chang Ming or the fabled Su Kong Tai Djing. If you r teacher did train with him, and you are of the opinion that the material he learned is legitimate kung fu, then that is one more piece of the SD puzzle filled in by an independant source. GM The is still going to be a controversial figure and no one is going to link you or your teacher with him beyond the Ie Chang Ming connection. It appears that your teacher trained with Master Ie after Sin and Hiang The came to the states.

As for hostility, some are worse than others, but typically most people have intelligent and respectul conversations about SD etc.

Agreed. We all seem to agree as well that GM The adapted the material to his reflect his own take on the styles he learned. Different SD/CSC schools even have cirriculum/forms differences. But we're all bonded by Sin The. It would be nice to hear something from somebody else who learned from Great GM Ie Chang Ming.

It would certainly be interesting to hear from you White Earp.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Okay....this will sound kind of funny: (b/c SD is the most comprehensive martial art in the WORLD!!!:p )

Anybody in SD currently cross-training in another style/system? I'm thinking of ditching either CSC's internal arts or external arts program (keeping one) for a while (not forever). I love it....but there's something else I'd like to explore right now. There's a Southern Mantis school in Atlanta that I'd like to try out which is more conducive to my schedule, and will give me pretty good instruction from what I hear (a Henry Poo Yee school). Plus, I've gotta admit, I've always been itching to get some good southern centerline practice. It's really different in its application and outlook compared to SD's various styles. I'm not quitting SD (I'm in it for hte long haul to get those sweet drunken styles). But I hear their application work and chi kung is top-notch. I'm gonna go check them out this week. Location is convenient, and price is affordable.

Anyone else played with some outside schools?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Agreed. We all seem to agree as well that GM The adapted the material to his reflect his own take on the styles he learned. Different SD/CSC schools even have cirriculum/forms differences. But we're all bonded by Sin The. It would be nice to hear something from somebody else who learned from Great GM Ie Chang Ming.
.

It would also be interesting to see what certain forms look like without the The' brother influence, you know?

[Judge Pen]

Um....I'll call bullsh1t on this one. I would venture 50% or more are kids under 16, just like every other martial arts school on the planet.

Unless of course you have the stats to back it up.

WHITE EARP-
I can resize the photos for you. Send me a PM if you are interested and I'll supply an email address.


I don't think there are any official stats to support or deny this assertion (I may be wrong). I'll say that in my experience, most SD schools have approx. 1/3 of their enrollment under 16, but I can't quote you any official stats beyond the schools that I'm personally affiliated with.

[Flaca]

Um....I'll call bullsh1t on this one. I would venture 50% or more are kids under 16, just like every other martial arts school on the planet.

Unless of course you have the stats to back it up.


I thought those were stats. :D If they are anecdotal, KC is in a position to make those guesses, since he's been with SD for 13 years(?) in 3 states. What is the basis for your 'venture'?

SD schools are flourishing around the country, and are not 50% kids under 16 years old, as you suggest. Our school has a good kid's program, but it is probably 20% of the student population. And our adults are almost exclusively well educated professionals.

[BoulderDawg]

I doubt seriously that any study has ever been done to back up any of these "stats".

I do believe more educated people chose MA over, let's say, 24 hour fitness. The type of school doesn't really matter that much. In a given area you would probably find the same basic education levels at all the schools.

I don't believe that all the smart people go to this school but the dumb ones go to the other school. I think most decisions are made about what school to attend based on location and cost.

[brucereiter]

Okay....this will sound kind of funny: (b/c SD is the most comprehensive martial art in the WORLD!!!:p )

Anybody in SD currently cross-training in another style/system? I'm thinking of ditching either CSC's internal arts or external arts program (keeping one) for a while (not forever). I love it....but there's something else I'd like to explore right now. There's a Southern Mantis school in Atlanta that I'd like to try out which is more conducive to my schedule, and will give me pretty good instruction from what I hear (a Henry Poo Yee school). Plus, I've gotta admit, I've always been itching to get some good southern centerline practice. It's really different in its application and outlook compared to SD's various styles. I'm not quitting SD (I'm in it for hte long haul to get those sweet drunken styles). But I hear their application work and chi kung is top-notch. I'm gonna go check them out this week. Location is convenient, and price is affordable.

Anyone else played with some outside schools?

i would say stick with the internal stuff ... but as you can imagine i am biased in that direction :-) i have heard good things about henry poo yee :-) just be careful of "the grass is greener syndrome" ... but i think it is good to know what is out there to help you make the most informed decisions about your training :-)

yes i have done training outside of the school ... a lot of "rolling" with bjj people etc ...

[kwaichang]

It has been my observation having been in SD for a while. All I am saying is you people who write this stuff I say BS to you too. You are all Biased by what you have been told so lets look at the provable facts.
A. SD has been in the US since 1968 and earlier so I am told.
B. None of you have proven anything just hypothesis on your part.
C. Over 4000 students " what ever age " many are > 18 and can do research of Shaolin History.
D. SD has many many many similarities to other TCMA
E. Your opinions are just that and based upon what you have been told or taught which makes it not founded.
F. Many of you have only trained for a limited number of years and have not seen SD advanced forms

PS I feel the differences of the different people CSC SD Tennessee Atlanta Lexington is due to body types not GM The and how he taught a technique.
Hey Flaca did you get my PM PM me KC

[Judge Pen]

As BoulderDawg said, Most people chose a program based on location and cost. After that, is it a good work-out? Are the techniques fun and applicable? Do I like the class dynamic? Can I defend myself better than I could before the class? These are things the average person looking at a class thinks about. Honestly, most people, outside of those who have 1,000 + posts on KFO, couldn't care less about the accuracy of the history or lineage.

[Shaolin Wookie]

just be careful of "the grass is greener syndrome" ...



I'm not replacing anything (in the long run). I'm in review in the external program, and have made the decision to remain "in review" (strange state to be in) for a long while to come, despite the fact most people think I should "test up". I know I could, but I want the level of comfort with my material that I feel is necessary to warrant moving on...that is to say...more than anyone else at my level:p . Lots of students forget their material when they "test up", or it gets warped through lack of reptition. Ironically, "testing up" or upgrading in belt status often results in a marked "downgrading" in the former belt's form quality (at least, in the external program). I'm not trying to collect more forms (there aren't a lot in SPM), I just want to get instruction in their centerline and one-inch theories (and they're experts at infighting and drilling infighting--something we don't really get a lot of in CSC arts). As for my CSC material, it's just going to be a lot of reps for at least six months...minimum...(and my greatest revelations happen in personal practice). So I'm thinking I'll drop one of the programs and go study SPM for a while in tandem with CSC (it was the other school I was considering before joining the Do). No "grass is greener" stuff. Master Reid's grass is the "greenest." And it's schedule works perfectly for cross-training.

Honestly....I think it'll make me better in the long run.

[brucereiter]

Um....I'll call bullsh1t on this one. I would venture 50% or more are kids under 16, just like every other martial arts school on the planet.

Unless of course you have the stats to back it up.

.

hi there mk :-)

come visit the atlanta school some time ... i think you will find that about much smaller group of students under 16 years old ... we do have a strong kids program and it does help pay the bills but the school is not a daycare center for children ...

<<For Small-School Owners: Can You Survive Without Teaching Children?

Has your school become more like a day-care center than a martial arts training facility? Do you yearn to have a predominately adult student body? Master Gary Grooms shares his experience and philosophy of 17 years on how to attract and retain the mature client.


“Children aren’t that hard to outsmart. A school full of professional adults is not only difficult to outsmart, you shouldn’t even try to. You will probably have students who are brighter and more sophisticated than you are.”

“If your best sales approach is centered on how your style is the most effective method of self-defense, you may find it hard to attract adults who stay with you for extended periods of time.”

“Adults aren’t going to care about belts. The Black Belt Club may be great for kids, but the 45-year-old, female, corporate vice-president isn’t going to be motivated by the rank advancement. Using the belt as a carrot may backfire.”

“If you want to teach the professional, adult market you have to have an environment that fosters the mutual respect of a group of peers. Treat them like you’re the king and you may end up the pauper.”

“Going after the adult market isn’t for everyone. It’s a difficult balance, providing the training and motivation necessary to be successful in martial arts, while still realizing that these adults are paying your salary and are your customers.”


Nationwide, the vast majority of martial schools survive off of teaching large numbers of children. I recently heard that an estimated 52% of the people taking martial arts are children. My guess is that if you eliminate the cardio-karate adults and only count the people in traditional classes -- those learning actual forms, required to test, spar or do pushing hands and build a sizable knowledge base -- the number of children in martial arts classes is actually closer to 70%.
Can it be done the other way around? Can you have a school with 90% adults learning traditional martial arts and still be in business? For the last 17 years, that is exactly what I have done. The majority of my student body is professional, well-educated adults with an average age of 28-years-old.
When I meet most people for the first time and they find out that I own a martial arts school, their immediate assumption is that I teach children. It seems that their opinion of martial arts instructors is that we run day-care centers with a martial arts theme. It’s very difficult for most people to comprehend that I only have ten or 15 children.

Selling Principles
I was talking to a fellow school owner a few years ago and he was telling me about the great new sales techniques he learned from one of the martial arts business consulting groups. The sales technique revolved around how to get kids in the door and signed up to long-term contracts. Part of the process involved him eliminating the style he had grown up with and, instead, teaching a very basic, oversimplified system designed just for kids. This involved a ranking system that had more belts than material, so he could give a kid a new belt every two weeks. The kid got the belt whether he could do anything or not. All it took was attendance, not progress.
He was making a lot of money. He really thought I needed to jump on the kiddie bandwagon. I told him that if I couldn’t run my school the way I wanted, I would rather be back in corporate America. By his own admission, he was no longer teaching the art he knew and loved. He was just providing a service that would generate a good income, but it wasn’t really martial arts.

continued on next post ...

[brucereiter]

Every so often, I read some of the training and marketing materials that one of the many martial arts business consultants have developed. Usually, they are well-designed and would be beneficial for someone who had little or no business background. However, they all seem to say the same thing: high-pressure sales techniques to mom and dad about their wonderful, exceptional child. Most of these sales techniques will not attract a lot of professional adults who will stay with you for several years.

The Baby Boomers
So how do you tap into the adult Baby Boomers’ market? Some of the things you can’t do are play games, make false claims or be mystical. A professional adult is generally not going to buy into false hype.
You have to have a product that appeals to a more mature adult market. The exact same curriculum and teaching methods used for eight-year-olds is not going to be suitable for 38-year-olds.
You also need a professional sales approach. The hardcore, used-car salesman approach may sell some people. But often, when someone feels that they were pressured into committing to a long-term deal after only being with you a couple of weeks, from the start you have damaged your relationship with that person
Adults aren’t going to care about belts. The Black Belt Club may be great for kids, but the 45-year-old, female, corporate vice-president isn’t going to be motivated by the rank advancement. She will likely be motivated by the new knowledge that will be offered her when she reaches the next rank, but the chance to tell her friends that she’s a green belt really isn’t a factor. This is not to say that adults don’t want a ranking system, it’s just that using the belt as a carrot may backfire.

Long-Term Benefits
When I decided that I wanted to become a full-time martial arts instructor, I didn’t really want to teach children, so I set out to do things a little differently. I intentionally marketed my school to adults. I try to appeal to people that are interested in health and longevity.
All of us are asked the question, “Why should I take classes here?” I try to avoid saying much of anything about other schools or styles. I try and stick to discussing what long-term martial arts training can do for them. I don’t want to convince them that I can make them a “killer” in six months. If a person walks in because they really want self-defense skills and you tell them they can learn how to defend themselves in two weeks, why would they take classes for more any longer than that? I stress that the training will address the elements of conditioning in a way that nothing else does.
It’s imperative that you communicate the health benefits and the need to take the time to take care of your health. I constantly preach that if you don’t take the time to take care of your health, you will eventually take the time for the hospital stay.
This makes sense because many adults realize that hospitals are not filled with victims of random assaults, they are filled with victims of self-abuse. What I mean by self-abuse is a lack of disciplined health habits. A failure to follow a regime of proper diet and exercise leads to increased incidence of any health disorder you can name from heart disease to diabetes to cancer.
I always say, “If you can’t defend yourself from yourself, don’t worry about the boogeyman in the bushes.” If you aren’t doing the things to take care of yourself with decent health habits, you will be the one that “injures” yourself.
My average student is interested in what the training does for his or her physical and mental well-being, with the side benefit being they can more effectively defend themselves. Therefore, it is vitally important that you fully articulate the health benefits of martial arts training when you sell to adults.
You have to have an adult-oriented outlook on martial arts training if you want to have adults in your class.

Self-Defense Sales
Adults may mention self-defense when they first come in, but if they are still with you five years later, they aren’t talking or even thinking about self-defense skills.
If your best sales approach is centered on how your style is the most effective method of self-defense, you may find it hard to attract adults who stay with you for extended periods of time. (See the sidebar, “Master Gary’s Definition of ‘Being in Shape.’”)
Realistically, we all know that the odds of an adult in a relatively affluent area becoming a victim of a random violent crime are extremely low. Intelligent adults understand that if they try to avoid trouble, they will most likely never need to defend themselves.
Many adults will start training because they want self-defense skill, but they will either leave when they have learned a few techniques or their mindset will change. After all, how many of us are guilty of communicating that you can learn how to defend yourself in a very short time? If you offer quickie women’s self-defense seminars or two-week certifications for “reality” training, what are you saying about the need for internalization of the skills through years of practice? Most adults understand the difference between knowing how to defend yourself and actually being able to defend yourself.
These short-term self-defense programs are like going to a weekend basketball camp and then thinking you can play with the pros in the NBA. I know how to play basketball, but if my life depended on my basketball skills, I would be in deep trouble. Adults will stay with you because they realize it takes a long time to actually develop self-defense skill -- and they know the importance of not letting those skills rust away from lack of practice. Or, they may stay with you because they enjoy the benefits they see and feel every day.

Gaining Respect
You cannot sell or teach the adult market the same way as children. Children are immediately impressed with the fact that you’re an adult, you’re bigger than they are and you have a black belt. To impress the 50-year-old CEO takes a little more. Your adults may be older than you and if you’re a smaller person like me, they will probably be bigger than you. If they stay around long enough, they may gain a similar rank to you. You may even have to live with the fact that some of your senior people could take you in a fight.
Children aren’t that hard to outsmart. A school full of professional adults is not only difficult to outsmart, you shouldn’t even try to. You will probably have students who are brighter and more sophisticated than you are.
Therefore, with adults, you have to gain their respect in very different ways. If you want to earn their respect, you must treat them with respect. Your environment must be professional. Professional adults expect to be treated like the customers they are. They expect the classes to start and finish on time and to have professional physical surroundings. Does your office look like their office? Or does it look like a flea market?
Teenage instructors often teach a significant amount of martial arts classes. Professional adults will generally do better learning from people like themselves. A guy that’s used to managing a multimillion-dollar-a-year business may not enjoy taking commands from someone younger than his son.

Journey versus Destination-Oriented Training
Adult martial arts training needs to be about the journey, not the destination.
My most senior student, Mike, is also an avid mountain climber. He has the same outlook on reaching the top of the mountain as he does towards martial arts. He climbs these 20,000-foot mountains with a group of people. Sometimes these groups have to come back down without reaching the summit for any variety of reasons, weather being the most likely. When this happens, most of the other climbers will be upset about not reaching the summit, complaining that they wasted three weeks and didn’t “get” anything for it. Mike’s outlook is that he likes to climb mountains; he enjoys the experience of being on the mountain. He certainly would have liked to have made it to the summit, but his time wasn’t wasted because he didn’t.
This type of attitude is why he has been with me for over 16 years. People with his outlook make great long-term students; you just have to be able to sell to this type of person, and operate an environment that supports your retention of these types of people.
While not every student that leaves is a failure on your part, some are. I contend that about one-third of your students will stay with you almost no matter what you do. Then there’s another third that’s going to leave no matter what you do. It’s the third that can be influenced either positively or negatively that are the challenge to keep. If you are truly turning over 100% of your student body every year, then you need to discover what you’re doing that drives students away.

Older Adult Curriculum
I started offering a comprehensive internal-training program several years ago. Our art always included a significant amount of internal training, such as tai-chi, pa-kua and hsing-i. But a student also had to take all the kung-fu forms in the curriculum. When I established an internal arts-only program, providing an opportunity for people to come in and learn tai-chi without having to take the other kung-fu styles, I started to attract an even older crowd.

[brucereiter]

I made several mistakes early on. First, I had the tai-chi people wear whatever they wanted. We would formally bow in the kung-fu class and then I would step onto the other workout floor and grab the tai-chi group and just start teaching the form.
I realized eventually that the tai-chi people were being treated as the ugly stepchild. The kung-fu students had uniforms, belts and an organized curriculum. The kung-fu students were referred to as the “regular” students. Which, I guess, meant the tai-chi people were the “irregular” students.
When I finally realized I had unintentionally created two classes of students, I made a series of changes that took a couple of years to complete. First, we had the tai-chi people wear the same uniform as the kung-fu class. Next, we established a ranking system, using sashes instead of belts. Then we had both classes bow in together and sometimes we have them warm up together. We line up in descending rank order to start class, so now an internal student who has been active for about the same time as a kung-fu student, should have the same color sash as the kung-fu person’s belt, and they will line up next to each other.
These changes, which removed the ugly stepchild, irregular student label from my internal students, have helped the program grow dramatically. The internal-program people are now treated with the same level of dignity and respect, with the same protocols as the kung-fu students.

Uniforms and Belts
Many “traditional” Chinese martial artists are hung up on the notion that “real” Chinese stylists don’t have rankings. My only comment on that is, if someone actually believes the way you organize your system and what you wear has any bearing on the value of the training, they will never understand the martial arts.
Intelligent, professional adults don’t care about uniforms one way or the other. If you use a uniform or if you use a t-shirt, as long as there is some consistency most people will be happy. But, you won’t get a class of people in the age group of 35- to 55-years-old, with 50% of the class being female, if you make, say, spandex the uniform of choice.
Going after the adult market isn’t for everyone. Just like going after the kid’s market isn’t for me. It’s a difficult balance, providing the training and motivation necessary to be successful in the martial arts, while still realizing that these adults are paying your salary and are your customer.
If you want to teach the professional, adult market you have to have an environment that fosters the mutual respect of a group of peers. Treat them like you’re the king and you may end up the pauper.

Master Gary Grooms began teaching martial arts in Atlanta in 1986. Currently, he oversees four licensees operating full-time schools as well as affiliated programs at the University of Georgia, Georgia Tech, Georgia Southern and a community center program in Rome, Georgia. He can be >>

[brucereiter]

I'm not replacing anything (in the long run). I'm in review in the external program, and have made the decision to remain "in review" (strange state to be in) for a long while to come, despite the fact most people think I should "test up". I know I could, but I want the level of comfort with my material that I feel is necessary to warrant moving on...that is to say...more than anyone else at my level:p . Lots of students forget their material when they "test up", or it gets warped through lack of reptition. Ironically, "testing up" or upgrading in belt status often results in a marked "downgrading" in the former belt's form quality (at least, in the external program). I'm not trying to collect more forms (there aren't a lot in SPM), I just want to get instruction in their centerline and one-inch theories (and they're experts at infighting and drilling infighting--something we don't really get a lot of in CSC arts). As for my CSC material, it's just going to be a lot of reps for at least six months...minimum...(and my greatest revelations happen in personal practice). So I'm thinking I'll drop one of the programs and go study SPM for a while in tandem with CSC (it was the other school I was considering before joining the Do). No "grass is greener" stuff. Master Reid's grass is the "greenest." And it's schedule works perfectly for cross-training.

Honestly....I think it'll make me better in the long run.

-10 years and i am "only" a 2nd black sash :-) ... i think i will test in sept 07 though ...
-"(and my greatest revelations happen in personal practice)" wise words! practice practice ... ... ... and you will discover ... ... ...
-"Master Reid's grass is the "greenest." he is a fantastic teacher ... inspiring :-)
-let us know how the training goes at the other school ...

[WhiteEarp]

Well i posted the pictures with Sifu Decramer and the old guy.
But he does wonder if it is indeed his father. He going to e-mail the guy to make sure:p .
He is very enthousiastic about his finding on internet.

here's the link:

http://sport.marktplaats.nl/vechtsporten-en-zelfverdediging/72145006-kung-fu-lessen-fred-decramer.html?adcode=218e13de247c12ab4a1eb6315260b 0a5

The black/white photo and then the old chinese guy. That's supposed to be him.

[WhiteEarp]

Hmmmmm........So much for the pictures I guess.

When I saw this post and the guy mentioned, "i allready feel a little bit of hostility here" I kinda knew there were no pictures.

:) hey check the new post, more is coming up.
I will build a site wich will come online in the next couple of weeks with loads of more pics.
Doesn't your teacher teach you patients?:p
Just check my post and click the link.

[BoulderDawg]

I'm lost. All I see is an advertisment for Kung Fu lessons.

I see one black and white picture of a older man and a younger man and it's looks like they are doing some form of Mantis. Is this what you're talking about?

[Fist of Death]

The black and white may be Ie..it is hard to tell. Looks like the are doing Tang Lang Chien though. The large man with the beard is NOT Ie though. And Ie was their Grandfather...not their father, or so the story goes.

[brucereiter]

Well i posted the pictures with Sifu Decramer and the old guy.
But he does wonder if it is indeed his father. He going to e-mail the guy to make sure:p .
He is very enthousiastic about his finding on internet.

here's the link:

http://sport.marktplaats.nl/vechtsporten-en-zelfverdediging/72145006-kung-fu-lessen-fred-decramer.html?adcode=218e13de247c12ab4a1eb6315260b 0a5

The black/white photo and then the old chinese guy. That's supposed to be him.



maybe you can put them up on http://photobucket.com/register.php
it is fast and easy ... thanks for taking the time anyways ...

[Baqualin]

The black and white may be Ie..it is hard to tell. Looks like the are doing Tang Lang Chien though. The large man with the beard is NOT Ie though. And Ie was their Grandfather...not their father, or so the story goes.

Depends on who's telling the story.;)
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

Have patience? They either have the pictures or they don't.

However the picture in the advertisment looks like something that's been there for a while. Also, in the description of training he did not mention training with Master Ie.

In any case, I know of no one that could verify that the man is Ie other than Sin The.

[kungfujunky]

boulderdawg there are new pics of ie in the new training manual.

you can even ask master david or sharon yourself if you are so intent upon it.

[WhiteEarp]

boulderdawg there are new pics of ie in the new training manual.

you can even ask master david or sharon yourself if you are so intent upon it.

Jup and another thing:
You're mistaken, the big guy on the other picture with the beard is Sifu Tze D Khan.
He's a famous master in europe.

And indeed it's hard to tell, he gave me the photos, wich i had to scan.
I will upload more photos wich make it more clear.

To warm you up:
On one photo he's standing with the same old guy and what seems to be his family/relatives/friends or pupils, i can't make it out of the picture and neither does my master. It's with a painting of a big bird on the background. Now i recently heard that Le Chang Ming is not Sin's father. So that myth is busted, my Master was wondering if it was his father. But we still don't know if they are relatives or that Sin was just a student.
My master didn't knew him very well, and in those days "it was not polite to question someone, or to ask questions to your master for that mather".

Another photo is him with his entire class including Judoka Anton Geesink, whom won the Olympic Championships 1964 in Tokyo. I don't what this guy was doing there but he's still alive.

If after viewing the other photos you still don't believe it then you can allways try to e-mail Anton Geesink and ask wether or not he was in Indonesia and knew Sifu Le Chang Ming.
And offcourse you can allways try to check the Indonesian registries on Chinese imigrantes and so on and so on.:p

[WhiteEarp]

Another thing, On the use of Gi's and Japanese terms.
Now, we don't use japanese terms in class or karate-like techniques for that mather. But we do wear a gi and use a belting system.
Why is that?

For starters:
When the Chinese migrated to indonesia Chinese never thaught "kungfu" to foreigners. If they did, they didn't teach the "real stuff".
Now some of the masters didn't mind teaching foreigners, hence Le Chang Ming. But to avoid problems and issues with other masters who didn't agree with that and the indonesian government(who i believe forbid the practice of al CMA that time)they began to wear japanese clothing and use a japanese rankingsystem.
So they also begin to use japanese terms and karate like techniques when someone came to "take a look"

The thing is, we learn to defend ourselves from "karate techniques" during basic training, but we never ever have karate techniques in our system. It's all strict CMA, So i to wonderd why SD uses some techniques and call the forms kata's. They say it's to remember the way it was in Indonesia.

That's up to them. What i can say is: Yes, they do use real Shaolin southern techniques! Dispite de Do usage.

But today if someone does not shave his head can make a split do highkicks in the air and wears orange suits it's not shaolin kungfu.

Let me make something clear: Kung Fu is not about looking good in a fight, it's selfdefence inventend by small people for small people.
"Good kungfu never looks good", remember Chris Crudelli anyone?
Since when is wearing Chinese Clothing making you a true kung fu master or student for that mather? It seems to me that the masters who try to look "chinese" don't have much to offer and need some compensation for it.
A true master doesn't worry about such superficial stuff, he wants to teach you something. And you want to be taught by him. (or her)
And if he decides todo it in a Gi then so what? It's more practical, it can take a beating, it's tough clothing.
And the belting system? Everybody needs motivation in the beginning.
In Choy Li Fut they use color sashes, and in a lot of other "traditional" styles as wel, i hear everybody proclaim true traditional arts do not use color gradings, so Choy Li Fut and all the other traditional arts are also a fraud then?

[Golden Tiger]

Mr. Earp,

Out of curiosity, would you happen to be able to list some of the forms that your Master learned from Master Ie? I wonder if there are any common ones between the two schools.

Welcome on board and have a nice stay.

[Baqualin]

Another thing, On the use of Gi's and Japanese terms.
Now, we don't use japanese terms in class or karate-like techniques for that mather. But we do wear a gi and use a belting system.
Why is that?

For starters:
When the Chinese migrated to indonesia Chinese never thaught "kungfu" to foreigners. If they did, they didn't teach the "real stuff".
Now some of the masters didn't mind teaching foreigners, hence Le Chang Ming. But to avoid problems and issues with other masters who didn't agree with that and the indonesian government(who i believe forbid the practice of al CMA that time)they began to wear japanese clothing and use a japanese rankingsystem.
So they also begin to use japanese terms and karate like techniques when someone came to "take a look"

The thing is, we learn to defend ourselves from "karate techniques" during basic training, but we never ever have karate techniques in our system. It's all strict CMA, So i to wonderd why SD uses some techniques and call the forms kata's. They say it's to remember the way it was in Indonesia.

That's up to them. What i can say is: Yes, they do use real Shaolin southern techniques! Dispite de Do usage.

But today if someone does not shave his head can make a split do highkicks in the air and wears orange suits it's not shaolin kungfu.

Let me make something clear: Kung Fu is not about looking good in a fight, it's selfdefence inventend by small people for small people.
"Good kungfu never looks good", remember Chris Crudelli anyone?
Since when is wearing Chinese Clothing making you a true kung fu master or student for that mather? It seems to me that the masters who try to look "chinese" don't have much to offer and need some compensation for it.
A true master doesn't worry about such superficial stuff, he wants to teach you something. And you want to be taught by him. (or her)
And if he decides todo it in a Gi then so what? It's more practical, it can take a beating, it's tough clothing.
And the belting system? Everybody needs motivation in the beginning.
In Choy Li Fut they use color sashes, and in a lot of other "traditional" styles as wel, i hear everybody proclaim true traditional arts do not use color gradings, so Choy Li Fut and all the other traditional arts are also a fraud then?

DITTO;)
BQ

[WhiteEarp]

Edit:

Can you post techniques from your school?

[WhiteEarp]

I'm curious too. Do you have Monkey techniques to(short range techniques)?
Cause the only monkey-ish kungfu you'll see today are people rolling over the floor pretending to be a monkey! (you don't see snake kungfu crawling over the floor do you:) )
My master loves the monkey art. The most kungfu he was taught are from monkey masters from Hong Kong and Indonesia. But these days it's hard to tell. Monkey kungfu has allways been a very secretive art.
Tong Bei Quan is something that comes very close.
It's ashame there is so much water between the schools!:o I would love to come down and take a look myself.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Can't really tell from the photo whether it was Ie Chang Ming or not. Only Hiang or Sin could really verify that (b/c we're not used to seeing pics of him from the side view). But I'm sure they would be able to tell, and they might even recognize the setting........*hint* *hint* for all of you SD'ers with access to GM Sin. He might be interested in this. Show him a pic if you can......

[MasterKiller]

This is about as good as I can get it without too much pixelation.

Is this supposed to be Ie with Hiang?

[Baqualin]

This is about as good as I can get it without too much pixelation.

Is this supposed to be Ie with Hiang?

I have seen this picture from one of Hiang's students
BQ

[WhiteEarp]

Well now i am confused:-S
At the back of one of the photos it says "Sifu Hiang".
Now then i don't know what it is. is it Sifu le of Sifu Hiang??:S
My master cannot tell me more, since he doesn't know either. I think he wants to email Hiang a couple of pictures and ask him who this is.
Let's hope he'll respond!
(to the SD people, if you see him or speak to him sooner show him this picture!! We really want to know.)

[Baqualin]

Well now i am confused:-S
At the back of one of the photos it says "Sifu Hiang".
Now then i don't know what it is. is it Sifu le of Sifu Hiang??:S
My master cannot tell me more, since he doesn't know either. I think he wants to email Hiang a couple of pictures and ask him who this is.
Let's hope he'll respond!
(to the SD people, if you see him or speak to him sooner show him this picture!! We really want to know.)

OK, the young person in the picture is Master Hiang The...Grand Master Sin The's younger brother.

[Golden Tiger]

Ok, I am confused. The picture that Wyatt posted, where did get it? Was it one thats his teacher had?

Then BQ mentioned that he had seen the same picture from one of M. Hiang's student.

Help me here, I am old and my mind is slow.

[NJM]

Like in Choy Li Fut you'll recieve weapon training at some point. (i believe from green sash or orange, i would have to check it) And you'll also use the Chinese terms. Sei Ping Ma for horsestance etc.


Well, it certainly wouldn't be between sashes, because Kung Fu schools don't have belts, at least not traditional ones.

Does your Sifu require you to sign a contract of payment for a certain period of time?

[brucereiter]

Well, it certainly wouldn't be between sashes, because Kung Fu schools don't have belts, at least not traditional ones.


hi njm,

are you implying that the schools to which i linked below are not traditional kung fu schools? i am not sure i understand your post ???

a quick google search for "kung fu rank" found many kung fu / cma schools do use a ranking system and use colored belts or sashs ...
i did not investigate the quality of any of these schools beyond the fact they are cma and use ranking system. many of these schools have very good reputations and many i have not heard of beyond this google search.

http://www.eagleclawatl.com/new/eagleclaw/program1.html
http://www.greencloud.net/949615.html
http://www.kungfutoday.com/index.php
http://www.adamhsu.com/index.htm
http://www.nykungfu.com/programs/adult-kung-fu.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Parrella
http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/Syllabus.htm
http://www.kungfuusa.com/instructors.html
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/association/ranking/index
http://www.kungfu.cc/kfrank.shtml
http://bama.ua.edu/~slkungfu/rank.html
http://www.fuhok.com/school.htm
http://www.kungfuarnis.com/kungfurank.html
http://www.ironpalm.com/ranks.html
http://www.wangsmartialarts.com/
http://school.ymaa.com/training/ymaaprogram/taijiquan/taijiquan1.php
http://www.kungfu.cc/instr.shtml
http://www.kungfu-wusu.com/schedule.php
http://www.taiyimkungfu.com/Home.php
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1321/
http://www.kungfukc.com/curriculum.html
http://www.hasayfu.com/lamtang/hunggar/faq

as i am looking for traditional kung fu schools with ranking systems i am getting board because there are soooooo many :-) i could go on listing but i think you might geet the point ...



Does your Sifu require you to sign a contract of payment for a certain period of time?

what does it matter? no contract, 1 month contract, 6 month contract, 1 year contract ... does this have any bearing on the instruction?

if you do not want a contract find a teacher/school that does not require one.
if i owned a school i would want at least 1 month tuition paid in advance ... ya gotta make a living after all ...

[BoulderDawg]

Take it easy man....WhiteEarp is from another country and is nice enough to communicate with us we should return the favor, repectfully.:o
BQ

I just want to see these pictures. So far there have only been two and the old guy doesn't appear to the be same person in the pictures.

In anyway case I would love to hear Sin The's opinion on these.

I'm still a little confused on this Father/Grandfather thing. I though the story was that Sin The started out with the teacher who had him hitting sand. He went looking for another school and found Master Ie's school. If this is the case how could they be related.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=BoulderDawg;737810]I just want to see these pictures. So far there have only been two and the old guy doesn't appear to the be same person in the pictures.

In anyway case I would love to hear Sin The's opinion on these.

I though the story was that Sin The started out with the teacher who had him hitting sand. He went looking for another school and found Master Ie's school.

This is correct. :)
BQ

[godzillakungfu]

[QUOTE=BoulderDawg;737810]I just want to see these pictures. So far there have only been two and the old guy doesn't appear to the be same person in the pictures.

In anyway case I would love to hear Sin The's opinion on these.

I though the story was that Sin The started out with the teacher who had him hitting sand. He went looking for another school and found Master Ie's school.

This is correct. :)
BQ

The other version comes from someone else.

[tattooedmonk]

This is a mistaken term for the literal meaning. Calling someone uncle, sister, or what relative title is given to someone in China in which you hold in high regard, who is close to your family. It is quite possible that after an extended period of time that Sin and Hiang came to be known as his grandsons or he their grandfather.

[NJM]

hi njm,

are you implying that the schools to which i linked below are not traditional kung fu schools? i am not sure i understand your post ???

a quick google search for "kung fu rank" found many kung fu / cma schools do use a ranking system and use colored belts or sashs ...
i did not investigate the quality of any of these schools beyond the fact they are cma and use ranking system. many of these schools have very good reputations and many i have not heard of beyond this google search.

http://www.eagleclawatl.com/new/eagleclaw/program1.html
http://www.greencloud.net/949615.html
http://www.kungfutoday.com/index.php
http://www.adamhsu.com/index.htm
http://www.nykungfu.com/programs/adult-kung-fu.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Parrella
http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/Syllabus.htm
http://www.kungfuusa.com/instructors.html
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/association/ranking/index
http://www.kungfu.cc/kfrank.shtml
http://bama.ua.edu/~slkungfu/rank.html
http://www.fuhok.com/school.htm
http://www.kungfuarnis.com/kungfurank.html
http://www.ironpalm.com/ranks.html
http://www.wangsmartialarts.com/
http://school.ymaa.com/training/ymaaprogram/taijiquan/taijiquan1.php
http://www.kungfu.cc/instr.shtml
http://www.kungfu-wusu.com/schedule.php
http://www.taiyimkungfu.com/Home.php
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1321/
http://www.kungfukc.com/curriculum.html
http://www.hasayfu.com/lamtang/hunggar/faq

as i am looking for traditional kung fu schools with ranking systems i am getting board because there are soooooo many :-) i could go on listing but i think you might geet the point ...



what does it matter? no contract, 1 month contract, 6 month contract, 1 year contract ... does this have any bearing on the instruction?

if you do not want a contract find a teacher/school that does not require one.
if i owned a school i would want at least 1 month tuition paid in advance ... ya gotta make a living after all ...

First of all, I want to make it clear that I was drawing no conclusions about the authenticity of your system.

You did a google search for CMA/Kung Fu schools, and of course there are many Chinese Martial Art and Kung Fu schools which use a belt ranking system, because most have been forced to adapt to what people want. But, if the school is truely a TRADITIONAL Kung Fu school, they would not use a belt ranking system. Belts are considered something to be proud of, and a sign of your acheivement. Striving for pride is not something a Kung Fu man should do, and one's achievement should only be displayed through demonstrations of skill. That was the basic thinking behind the old Traditional Schools. I believe that if your looking for a peice of gratification so that you can show it to others/garner respect from your peers, you should not be practicing TCMA.

Now, this is where you misinterpreted me. Just because you take a traditional STYLE, and add belts to it, does not make the STYLE ITSELF non-traditional. It makes the KWOON non-traditional. I'm not saying that you, personally, use the belt as a symbol to garner respect. But I can see no other purpose for it. I've heard it argued that the belt allows new students to recognize older ones. However, if you had a proper kwoon, everyone would know each other and would not need such symbols to identify each other's skill. The only person who deserves unearned respect is your Sifu.

[brucereiter]

hey schools need to make money teachers need to pay for their families ... say 150 years ago in china for example a student might bring his teacher a bag of rice or a pigs leg or a chicken or a new farm tool etc etc ... this to me is no different than the way many schools support their teachers today in america ... ranking systems also serve as a way to make money ...


First of all, I want to make it clear that I was drawing no conclusions about the authenticity of your system.


hi hjm,

i did not take your comment as such nor did i think you were being rude:-)
you make legitimate questions and comments from one point of view ...



You did a google search for CMA/Kung Fu schools, and of course there are many Chinese Martial Art and Kung Fu schools which use a belt ranking system, because most have been forced to adapt to what people want.


how were most forced? of coarse many traditional cma people do not use ranking and do not like ranking ... i have no problem with that :-)



But, if the school is truely a TRADITIONAL Kung Fu school, they would not use a belt ranking system.


i do not see the logic there ... you are saying that all of the schools i listed are not traditional kung fu schools. (you state they do traditional styles but are not traditional kwoons)



Belts are considered something to be proud of, and a sign of your acheivement. Striving for pride is not something a Kung Fu man should do, and one's achievement should only be displayed through demonstrations of skill. That was the basic thinking behind the old Traditional Schools.


you can take my sash away and i will still have my skills ... :-)



I believe that if your looking for a peice of gratification so that you can show it to others/garner respect from your peers, you should not be practicing TCMA.


i agree 100% for me "rank" is a personal achievement that has nothing to do with my training peers. it is only a measure of my own progress in the curriculum ...
i do know that i put in thousands of hours of practice to reach the rank i am at and some others who are at the same rank did not put in those hours and do not have the same understanding but i am not in a race with other students ... so it does not matter to me :-)



Now, this is where you misinterpreted me. Just because you take a traditional STYLE, and add belts to it, does not make the STYLE ITSELF non-traditional. It makes the KWOON non-traditional.


i dont follow? whos tradition are you speaking about? how long does something need to be done for it to be a tradition?
what is traditional?



I'm not saying that you, personally, use the belt as a symbol to garner respect. But I can see no other purpose for it.


i dont take anything personally on internet forums :-)
in my opinion a belt/sash is used to measure what part of the curriculum you have "learned" the basics of. it is not a measure of skill or ability to apply the concepts of your art.
some schools have a set curriculum that all students follow and to keep track of where you are it is easy to use a ranking system.



I've heard it argued that the belt allows new students to recognize older ones. However, if you had a proper kwoon, everyone would know each other and would not need such symbols to identify each other's skill.

"proper" ... i think you might misunderstand how belts/sashs are used and viewed in some schools.



The only person who deserves unearned respect is your Sifu.

why would a sifu deserve "unearned" respect.

ability to apply the content of your art is more important than rank :-)

[NJM]

i dont follow? whos tradition are you speaking about? how long does something need to be done for it to be a tradition?
what is traditional?

What I meant was, if belts are introduced, the style itself is still traditional. Meaning, that the sets and moves and application and techniques obviously are still traditional. The school itself, which refers to the method by which the instructor administrates his kwoon, would not be traditional. In traditional schools, belts were not used.

My point was that even if your school has a non-traditional ranking system, it doesn't effect what you actually learn.

I wasn't using "school" to mean the style, as in "school of training called Hung Gar." I meant it as in "School of training under Sifu _____"

[tattooedmonk]

What I meant was, if belts are introduced, the style itself is still traditional. Meaning, that the sets and moves and application and techniques obviously are still traditional. The school itself, which refers to the method by which the instructor administrates his kwoon, would not be traditional. In traditional schools, belts were not used.

My point was that even if your school has a non-traditional ranking system, it doesn't effect what you actually learn.

I wasn't using "school" to mean the style, as in "school of training called Hung Gar." I meant it as in "School of training under Sifu _____"
Tradition comes from the latin word traditio meaning to hand over or pass down. Having a belt ranking system is part of a new and different tradition . It does not make it any less "traditional " because it is used. I see this view as being shallow and non intrinsic. Nor does the uniform , the terminology/ language, or any of the outward appearances or physical/ symbolic rituals ,because of variation, make it any less traditional. What makes it traditional or not is whether it is taught, learned, and practice the same way for multiple generations. With all the same discipline , honor , respect , and loyalty,

[brucereiter]

What I meant was, if belts are introduced, the style itself is still traditional. Meaning, that the sets and moves and application and techniques obviously are still traditional. The school itself, which refers to the method by which the instructor administrates his kwoon, would not be traditional. In traditional schools, belts were not used.

My point was that even if your school has a non-traditional ranking system, it doesn't effect what you actually learn.

I wasn't using "school" to mean the style, as in "school of training called Hung Gar." I meant it as in "School of training under Sifu _____"

ok :-) ... what kind of training do you do?

[Baqualin]

This is a mistaken term for the literal meaning. Calling someone uncle, sister, or what relative title is given to someone in China in which you hold in high regard, who is close to your family. It is quite possible that after an extended period of time that Sin and Hiang came to be known as his grandsons or he their grandfather.

This is also correct....good to hear from you TTM
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

hey schools need to make money teachers need to pay for their families ... say 150 years ago in china for example a student might bring his teacher .....a pigs leg ... this to me is no different than the way many schools support their teachers today in america ...

I think I'm going to carry a canned ham over to the school next week and give it to Master Sharon. That should square us for the rest of the year!:D

[brucereiter]

I think I'm going to carry a canned ham over to the school next week and give it to Master Sharon. That should square us for the rest of the year!:D

i thought they were vegan :-) lol ...

[kwaichang]

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez What A Waste. Kc

[godzillakungfu]

I think I'm going to carry a canned ham over to the school next week and give it to Master Sharon. That should square us for the rest of the year!:D

Yes, I hope they can safely remove you from the can.:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

But, if the school is truely a TRADITIONAL Kung Fu school, they would not use a belt ranking system. Belts are considered something to be proud of, and a sign of your acheivement. Striving for pride is not something a Kung Fu man should do, and one's achievement should only be displayed through demonstrations of skill. That was the basic thinking behind the old Traditional Schools. I believe that if your looking for a peice of gratification so that you can show it to others/garner respect from your peers, you should not be practicing TCMA..

No offense, dude...but that's kind of false. Kung-fu is noted for its pride...almost every highly-regarded "traditional" teacher in the US has had some falling out with his Sifu's other high-ranking students over inheritance to the tradition....and over stylistic differences, or personal differences. Also, Masters sometimes reveal certain "secrets" to certain students, meaning the knowledge is not spread to everyone democratically. Many traditional schools have been seriously fractured due to this "secret" stuff--wing chun is a prime example.

I understand where you're coming from....but idealistic points-of-view are really nothing more than that. It's not uncommon to find humility in the kung-fu world...but it's certainly not uncommon to find more pride in traditional schools. Why? Because they'll maintain that they're pure and untouched, while everyone else is watered-down. That's certainly a statement stemming from pride. (But it's also good for marketing.....gotta pay for the school, somehow.)

As for the belt thing.....with so many students coming in and dropping out...it becomes necessary to give one a perspective of where he stands in the long andshort of it. Okay, maybe teh Chinese didn't use belt ranking systems. The Japanese did. Personally, I think the Japanese were ahead of the game with that one. I never felt pride in my belt....but I felt pride in the accomplishment and effort I had put forward to earn that honor. Note: if you were not proud of what you were doing...you wouldn't be doing it. Pride has two connotations: ego and self-respect. Martial arts are about self-respect, in a lot of ways. I'm proud of my work ethic. I'm proud of the amount of time I put into practice. I'm proud of my understanding of my material. I'm not proud of what color dye was used to make my belt--as that seems utterly ludicrous. Belts help hold up the pants and provide support--they do have a function besides rank. I don't frame my old belts and put them on a wall. In fact, I use them to tie my numerous weapons together for easier transport...:o Pride can be a good thing, so long as it's not attached to Ego.

I used to take some Okinawan Karate from a dude in Atlanta...he taught in a rec center off of Peachtree-Dunwoody. He had a black belt. He was also one of the most humble men I've ever met. He was strict on traditional observances....bowing, sensei...etc. But he never demanded respect because of his belt color. He earned it by teaching the material very well (and for a very modest price, I might add). JApanese systems use belt ranks...and their civilization/culture is noted for its pride...but many karate guys are the most humble men I've ever met.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Also....even traditional masters wore belts and sashes...

Or we'd all be doing our forms pantless.:D

[kwaichang]

Are Ranking Systems in Martial Arts Actually Detrimental?

The Origins of Ranking Systems
Originally Kung Fu, Karate and other martial arts didn’t use ranking systems (colorful belts or sashes to denote a student’s skill level). Since I will be testing for my brown sash next week, I thought this would be an interesting topic to explore. The popular view of ranking is that it is a ‘western’ idea. However this is an inaccurate assumption. If Wikipedia, All-Karate.com are correct, ranking was used well before these martial arts were brought to the west (before Europe began populating the west even). This article attributes the colored belt system to Judo. Actually, in the Rank section of the Wikipedia entry for Karate, Judo is also credited as originating the belt system used by Karate. Shotokan Karate is mentioned as one of the originators, and is one of the primary schools of Karate in Japan - as you can see, this is not a ‘westernized’ school of Karate.

This idea of ranking systems being a ‘western’ thing, may actually originate in martial arts that have only recently begun to use them. But is this a sign that the ‘west’ is destroying martial arts? In the old days of Kung Fu, training was passed along family lines, thus there was no need to use ranking systems.

Martial Arts Today
I think it is ridiculous to term what has happened to martial arts as ‘westernized’. I don’t think it has anything to do with location. Is the commercialization of the Shaolin Temple the fault of the ‘west’? I will deal more with cultural philosophy etc in later articles, but now that Kung Fu is no longer hidden secrets passed from one family member to another, ranking systems make sense as a means of allowing students to train in groups of comparable skill.

Are Ranking Systems Harmful?
Why all the discussion about ranking systems? First, every system differs, even among the same martial art style. Every teacher (I say teacher, since we are discussing many different styles - with different terms for their instructors etc) is slightly different. I can understand the pressure. Martial arts schools must be profitable to keep their doors open, and some students view their training as a service. They are looking for an experience that lives up to their possibly romanticized idea of their given martial art. It is a balance between working the students hard, and yet not driving them all away.

The possible harm that I can see in ranking systems is their distraction from the truly important goals of training. This comes back to why a student is there in the first place. Are we training in order to race through the ranks to achieve the almighty black sash / belt, or are we there for deeper reasons? I think that ranking opens students up to thinking more about achieving their next level than about thoroughly learning the techniques and teachings of their given art. But then again, moving up through the various levels of training does give one a sense of accomplishment. This could end up becoming ego, but not necessarily.

The fact of the matter is, ranking systems are here with us. We are responsible for our own training, so ultimately the value or disadvantage of ranking systems lies in your hands, as students.
I found this and thought it was interesting KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

He just seems to be talking, but he doesn't really say anything.:confused:

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yang Jwing Ming once said you should always have a belt tied about the waist in order to provide some support.....so I think it has a physical function as well.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Besides....they kind of look cool when they're long enough (I always have perfect belt flap droopage w/ a size 5).:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

March 9th's coming......first chance to have a class with GM The' firsthand, with him teaching a form (Golden Leopard). Gonna be......interesting.....

[tattooedmonk]

Yang Jwing Ming once said you should always have a belt tied about the waist in order to provide some support.....so I think it has a physical function as well. This is to put pressure and focus on the dai mei meridian( also callled the golden belt channel) which is the channel around the waist that connects the meridians in the torso and the legs . It is very important for rooting and energy distribution.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Forgive me in advance, guys....I'm about to open a can of worms.

I do Shaolin-Do right now, under a Master who I really respect, both for his skill and his teaching ability. I've struggled with the Do for a while for different reasons. Some people know this...some don't. I'm sure some don't care.

Here's the skinny of it. I don't like the advancement system--I think it's too easy for some slackers to advance. I understand the business aspect of the school, believe me I do. But it makes me wonder if it's the right place for me, as an individual. Everyone asks me why I don't advance....I say, remembering a form is not "knowing" a form. They seem kind of bewildered by my reply. That always surprises me. Some of you have my same outlook. But I'm looking for outside opinions here as well. Plenty of posters in the past 7 years have voiced this same complaint. So I'm sure it's nothing new.

Anyway, I've been checking out other schools in Atlanta lately...but most of them have the same setup we have. You see a GM every once and a while, and study primarily under a Master. Each school has little variations on material. I'd like to find a guy who teaches one school, with him there on a daily basis. Is this unheard of in kung-fu? I can't find one. Sun de Yao out of North Atlanta sounds awesome, but he's too far away (almost impossibly far away--but I guess nothing's impossible [although he teaches 2 hrs. a week only...and I can't imagine great depth coming from that]). Some other schools teach something I don't want to learn. I do like SD's material, but I feel (I'm a researcher by nature) that I should get some knowledge first-hand by checking around more freely nowadays, now that I know what I'm looking for.

I don't care what real Shaolin is. I don't care what fake Shaolin is. I picked the Do because they're the only school that teaches 8 Immortals (so you know I'm in it for a lot of the art in martial arts as well)--but it takes forever to get there, and I might benefit myself better by looking about. I'm not willing to advance myself to higher ranks b/c I feel I should be able to use every skill I've been given so far. And ****.....I don't think there are a lot of people in SD that can make that claim. Not to brag or get a big head...but some of my forms look better than people's who have been doing this for years longer. What's up with that? Am I mistaken? Let's all be honest---I'm not calling anyone out.....I just need some kind of constructive input. From what I know, 8 Immortals just builds on the basics to a more extreme level. But a lot of "disciples" come back to other lower ranking students and say....hey, can you show me that form again....I forgot part of it. My heart just tells me.....look around Daniel San......how're you going to build on basics in this environment where basics are lost....or forgotten.....

That really gets me. It makes me question the validity of the system as it's taught. The question is--do I want to make the commitment to learn the Do for some-odd years to get Drunken Boxing....and weather the BS it's going to take to get there? Has anyone else, Do or non-Do, done the same, and considered it worthwhile?

I'm having a crisis here....so please....everyone talk to me about this. It's been going on for a while. I'm going to practice somthing for the rest of my life--preferably CMA. BJJ has been fun/informative....but I don't think it's what I wanna do (plus my bro, who's paying for it this past month so I'll go with him, is gonna quit).

I respect and admire the friggin' hell out of my SD teacher. He's amazing....especially regarding awareness, application, fighting acumen, pressure points, etc. He can walk up to you, tap you on the arm, and make it go numb for like three minutes. It's happened to me, firsthand. So it's not all hype. And my master seems to discard anything "Out-there." But as for the Soards---they seem hokey to me. And the CSC is an offshoot of hte Soards. As for GM The'....that new website pretty much sums it up for me.....makes me think he's got something to prove to me.....

And before anyone rips me for that---I've never met the guy. Some of his students impress me. A lot don't. That gives me doubts as to his efficacy....therefore I have a responsibility to doubt, I think.

I have questions....man....lots of 'em about the system as a whole. Do I want to be a part of a chain with so much.....history...I guess I'd call it.....

People talk about GM Sin like he's their best friend....but nobody here (in ATL) who does so really has frequent contact with him (on a weekly, even monthly basis...or am I wrong?). I'm always suspicious of acquaintances like this......via someone-told-me-this, I-heard-this-from-so-and-so means. He's around 1nc every 6 months, and occasionally for a festival class. I've been guilty of it, every once and a while.........:o

Well, he's coming to ATL, and I'm gonna be there. No lie--if I'm not impressed by him, then I will not be studying with SD anymore. I'm not trying to say I could beat the man up...and the hype he has to live up to is nothing if not monumental. If he's as good as you SD vets say, then there's nothing to worry about. I'll stick with it. Otherwise, I'm off to start anew. He's already got a monumental task ahead of him, 'cuz festival classes aren't always structured well.

Well, we'll see how it goes......

Please don't rip into me guys. I'm being sincere....and this is the place to bring doubts into the open air. I don't want to offend anyone at my school by questioning the validity/efficacy of SD, especially when some of them are badazz.....

I just don't know, man....

[tattooedmonk]

Besides....they kind of look cool when they're long enough (I always have perfect belt flap droopage w/ a size 5).:DSo how much exaggeration is being used here??:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

This is to put pressure and focus on the dai mei meridian( also callled the golden belt channel) which is the channel around the waist that connects the meridians in the torso and the legs . It is very important for rooting and energy distribution.

TTM...you're like a fount of information....thanks dude...:D

[The Xia]

The only person who deserves unearned respect is your Sifu.
I disagree with this. A sifu should earn your respect by having the skills he claims to have and being a good teacher. If he doesn't have those two things, why even study with him?

[kwaichang]

You guys amaze me , so you are going to quit even though you have seen what is out there in the SD system. You need patience why shouldnt you wait to be taught the 8 immortals?? The ego oozes from your words and pores. GMT does not feel the need to impress and he shouldnt need to, you are studying an art not the man. Many can teach but not all can do. We are all limited in some way. I feel your expectations are a little exaggerated and unfair. You seem to be putting God like qualities in your mind onto a humanbeing. An exceptional one but a man nontheless.
BTW just because one cant remember the sequence of a form learned 10 years ago means nothing , once your body squeezes the essence of the form from it it is good to go on and "do" something else , say your current stuff. KC:confused:

[The Xia]

If you are interested in 8 Immortals, I'd suggest PMing Tungmojingjung and talking to him about it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Two friggin' years of practice, nearly every day for several hours constitutes some kind of commitment, doesn't it? I know it's not much in the long run...but it's not nothing man.....:confused:

Who knows, maybe there's a better school out there for me......
Please don't turn into an SD troll.

[Shaolin Wookie]

If you are interested in 8 Immortals, I'd suggest PMing Tungmojingjung and talking to him about it.

I know...but it's not everything I'm interested in.......
Just like the thing I'd like to work at.....to perfect......
But yeah, I dug up that thread the other day where he was talking about it.
Only thing is, he's in Cali. I'm on the other coast.

[BoulderDawg]

I've never met GM Sin.
I've never even seen him in person.
To me he is a photograph and a rather strange persona who wants to seek immortality in a sense-deprivation tank.
I think my doubts are justified.

Just adding my observations on Sin The.

He's just a man like anyone else. I go up and "Glad to meet ya" and if he's teaching me I'm not afraid to ask a question.

In any case, I find it a little strange that he doesn't really teach and train that much. For example he'll come to Denver for a two day festival once a year. And even then the form is only taught on saturday. For me, I simply cannot pick up a form in one day no matter who teaches it. I'd rather see him come for a 1-2 week period.....Maybe I could actually learn something if taught it for a solid week.

************

Just another comment about the "slackers" advancing. I agree and this is my main bone of contention with the program.

[The Xia]

who wants to seek immortality in a sense-deprivation tank.
He wants to do this?

[Lamassu]

Shaolin Wookie,

I understand your frustration with the whole setup of SD, but as you already mentioned, most other martial art schools are the same way. I wouldn't be concerned about the advancement of slackers, because no matter what other school you go to, the slackers will still advance like they do in SD. There's simply no avoiding that environment, since the basis of these schools is to make money. If you want to learn 8 Immortals, then I suggest you either be patient in your current training in SD or else find another CMA that offers the 8 Immortals. I would be careful though, if you flitter about from school to school in search of the elusive form, then you'll never learn it because you never stay in a system long enough to reach that point. As for GM The, I've met the man a couple of times in Austin, and no we're not good buddies, but I do respect him and consider him a great teacher, simply because I had a conversation with him and found him to be sincere. I encourage you to approach him when he comes to Atlanta, and ask him your questions. Regardless what these other trolls say (yes, SD has some, but so does every other CMA, and quite a few on this forum), you should give SD some more time with your training because, yes you've been training for over two years, but you're training has so far only been two years.

Personally, I find my goals and intent change over the years as I progress in my training. When I first started 6 years ago, I simply wanted to study kung fu and get my black belt. As I progressed through belt ranks, I wanted to learn new material constantly, because I enjoyed the learning process and wanted more. Once I earned my 1st degree black belt, I wanted to excel and branch out and start my own school. Nowadays, I simply focus on the forms I know and try to get more intimate with them. I'm alone here in Chicagoland as far as SD is concerned, and so the whole school mentality and process are gone, so I must turn my training inward and "be" the forms instead of merely "doing" the forms. Once the trappings of being in a school are gone, you'll be suprised at how versatile the forms you know really are. I'm bringing this up only because, you may find your goals change over the years of training, and that special day when you start learning 8 Immortals, your outlook on the system and what you've learned previously may have changed dramatically by then. You may find yourself thinking that 8 Immortals is just another form, but that forms themselves, all have profound value and require years of study long after you've left the school.

[Lamassu]

I don't think your bashing him. I think you should talk to him and ask your questions. My experience with him may not be like yours.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Personally, I find my goals and intent change over the years as I progress in my training. When I first started 6 years ago, I simply wanted to study kung fu and get my black belt. As I progressed through belt ranks, I wanted to learn new material constantly, because I enjoyed the learning process and wanted more. Once I earned my 1st degree black belt, I wanted to excel and branch out and start my own school. Nowadays, I simply focus on the forms I know and try to get more intimate with them. I'm alone here in Chicagoland as far as SD is concerned, and so the whole school mentality and process are gone, so I must turn my training inward and "be" the forms instead of merely "doing" the forms. Once the trappings of being in a school are gone, you'll be suprised at how versatile the forms you know really are. I'm bringing this up only because, you may find your goals change over the years of training, and that special day when you start learning 8 Immortals, your outlook on the system and what you've learned previously may have changed dramatically by then. You may find yourself thinking that 8 Immortals is just another form, but that forms themselves, all have profound value and require years of study long after you've left the school.

Thanks dude. that's the kind of reply I'm looking for. I appreciate your input greatly.:D

But I'm not even that far.....and I dont want to advance. I don't think I'll ever make it to 4th degree. I'm not being impatient. I'm being overbearingly patient. I probably wont advance to black belt until 3 years in maybe more.........and I practice every day to get everything perfect, I'm in great shape, and I'm athletic.....how will I ever make it to 4th or 5th unless i sell out and become part of the machine?

[Lamassu]

I don't know your current rank, but the lower leveled belt ranks (white-green) only take 2-3 months, and the three brown belt ranks take 6 months each, and once you get your black belt, that's when it takes years. If I were you, I would "give in to the machine" and start progressing through the ranks. The reason I say this is because one, it'll get you that much closer to 8 Immortals. Two, you should have a wide range of the basics, and that's all the colored belt material is: basics! And three, by the time you get your black belt, while keeping the intensity of training that you currently have it at, you'll be shooting through ALL of your colored belt material with such precision, power and speed that you'll complete them before you even complete a thought. I'm not kidding! Don't worry about perfecting what you know now, you'll do them enough times that by year 6 of your training, you won't even be consiously thinking about what you're doing as you're doing them. I've never met you in person, but from what I can gather from your posts, you're a serious student with MUCH potential. Don't let your frustrations distract you from your training, instead channel your frustration into your training and thus train all the harder. That's what I had to do, and for god's sake TEST!!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

I might just up and say, screw it....I'll go someplace else for 2 years but still review my SD stuff, and if I feel I'm better after those 2 years of intro material at the new school, I'll go that route. If not, I'll come back and earn that black belt. But I'll never buy a colored belt. Not on my watch. And I stand by that standard. I'm nothing, if not stubborn.

Sun de Yao's Plum Blossom mantis is enticing....but extreeeeemly inconvenient, and not as time-intesive......

It'll be a big sacrifice for a guy working 2 jobs, planning on grad school..........whereas SD is veeeery convenient, and very time-intensive (more time in kwoon)......

[Lamassu]

Of course you'll review till you die, that's precisely what I'm doing. But dude, you're only one belt level away from learning Drunken forms! That reminds me, have you expressed your interest in 8 Immortals to your Master? He's the one you should be talking with about your concerns and goals in SD. Also, pester the hell out of him with your questions about practical applications in any given form you're learning. I would constantly ask practical applications questions to both Sifu Sean and Master Schaefer, and their input would get the mental gears turning as I focus on what exactly I'm doing and why I'm doing it. Feel free to pm me for your questions in practicle applications as well. As for Xia's questions, I can answer them too: 1. CMA community is a dog eat dog world here in the U.S. and Shaolin Do is just is a favored punching bag. Look at your "KungFu/Tai Chi" magazine and "Inside Kungfu" magazines, the articles submitted are nothing more than commercials for the style the author belongs to, so of course they toot their own horn. and 2: variances in Tiger/Crane? So what forms don't evolve and change over time as they're passed on from teacher to student? Let's not forget that, regardless of which murky history is least inaccurate, the form has been spread out all through China and now even the world, so differences in forms are inevitable.

[Yao Sing]

20+ forms in how many years? 3 or 4 or am I confusing you with someone else.

20 forms in 4 years is 5 per year which is way too much IMO unless they're really short.

Anyhow, just do what you feel is right at your own pace. Just say no to the next form if you don't feel ready to move on to something else.

I would say take advantage of what's available to you at the moment rather than pushing for a specific form or material. An opportunity for 8 Immortals might come up later on in your life or your situation might change allowing you to train with Sifu Troy Dunwood in CA.

[Lamassu]

Actually, the forms are short... in the beginning. They grow longer and more intense as the student progresses. Also, the 20+ forms aren't all just open hand, half are weapons, and yes, those at low belt levels are short and simple. You have to learn how to crawl before you can do triple back flips if you take my meaning.

[kwaichang]

Well you have trained for 2 years at 3 hours a day for 365 x 2= 730 x 3 = 2190 total. well I guess if that is accurate you have a right to ask your questions.
But those who have trained 30 years in SD for just 2 hours 5x per week might disagree.
You have to pay your dues in anything to get what you want from it. Personally I dont think you have. IMO. You are young I guess so try dedicating your self to learn for 10 more years then decide, that will make you a 3rd or 4th BB. Maybe.
SD aside I would not accept you as a student if you wont show anymore dedication and time than you have . You appear wishy washy to me. I am not saying these things to offend you just My Opinion. KC

[sean_stonehart]

Wookie... Check your PMs...

[Judge Pen]

20+ forms in how many years? 3 or 4 or am I confusing you with someone else.

20 forms in 4 years is 5 per year which is way too much IMO unless they're really short.

Anyhow, just do what you feel is right at your own pace. Just say no to the next form if you don't feel ready to move on to something else.

I would say take advantage of what's available to you at the moment rather than pushing for a specific form or material. An opportunity for 8 Immortals might come up later on in your life or your situation might change allowing you to train with Sifu Troy Dunwood in CA.

The "long forms" at that level are really short. That's something most overlook when making the SD forms argument. CMA forms typically tend to be very long. Most of the forms taught at the lower levels of SD are a minute or less forms. Some of them are a portion of a larger form.

SW, I'm impressed by Master Sin not because he impresses my teachers (whom have my utmost respect in their skill), but because of what he is still able to do at his age. When he taught the 2nd road of the Golden Leopard he did every move of the form with us. It's not an easy form for me at 32, but the man's in his middle 60s. He's not going to blow you away with his form at that age, but he will impress you with his energy and desterity at that age. And he's very approchable and friendly (if you can wade through some of the doe-eyed butt-kissers that will swarm him). He's really down to earth and humble in person.

And you mentioned kuntao and dethousas(SP?) and I want to point one more thing out. I've been told from a well-respected kuntao practitioner that tall tales and exageration are prevelant in Indonesian based martial arts (dethoursas is an example) but the fighting applicaiton and skill are what you should judge those arts.

And the tweaking of forms will happen anywhere. My teachers have their tweaks and I even have mine. Look at any MA with several branches and you will find differences in the core forms taught at each of the branches. Don't get too caught up in the differences of forms from school to school. Think of it as "alternatives" or "perspectives" that have their own applications worked into the differences.

[kwaichang]

Look Man if I offended you sorry. I am just calling it as I see it from what you have written and stated. It would be a shame if you left the system you might be a good , dedicated teacher. As far as training methods go I think SD is a result of peoples egos changing the original dream of what should have been partly due to the depth of the knowledge and material contained in it.
If you do not like the "training methods" you could be the start of a great and new thing. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

'ppreciate it KC....I think I get what you're saying as I re-read your posts.

We'll see how it all works out....or doesn't.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

I got into MA because I had harmonized my personal philsophy with Taoism and Buddhism...especially Zen...and knew there were physical exercises associated with these philosophies (I weight trained and ran distance....but was looking for something more.....and kung fu seemed like the way). I believe it is the way.

But once you get into it, it is also about the applicability of the material....and do I think I have command over that....

I'm considering several alternatives....but it will all hinge on whtat I see on March 9th....I guess....

[Yao Sing]

You are young I guess so try dedicating your self to learn for 10 more years then decide,

Advice like that always seems right until your really think about it. He might be young and have a bit more time to spare than someone older but do you really expect him to spend 10 years in a style before making a decision about it?

Then what? Go somewhere else for 10 years and then decides that one not right for him? Hopefully for him 3rd time's a charm because at 40 he's already wasted his prime on styles that didn't suit hem.

And how much do you get out of something you're not sure about?

It really doesn't take years to figure out a styles isn't right for you. Most figure that out the first month. If you stay 5 or more years it must be working for you.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Ten years is a long time to spend in something I'm already not sure about. The PT, stance training, waist movement, and striking are uniform throughout CMA....with some differences....so SD has already given me a good foundation in the basics. I have a sense of what the animals are about--4 tigers, 4 cranes, 2 mantis, 4 Shaolin Birds, 1 Leopard (March 9th).........weapons: Monkey king staff, bo, nunchaku, sword, daggers, stick, short stick, kwan dao.....and then the internal.....and Crazy Mad Drunk (my fav....:D ...but not an 8 Immortals form.)

It's a lot, man. I don't wanna gloss over anything.....and I love those techs and don't wanna lose 'em like some do....and I want more out of them. I guess I'd just like to make the best of what I have, and do so right now, rather than later.

Here's a fitting metaphor: When I'm reading War and Peace, I don't stop a quarter of the way through the book, and then pick up Anna Karenina in order to get a better understanding of War and PEace. It might improve my understanding of Tolstoy, but War and Peace would still be a mystery to me....

If I were to practice these the for the next ten years, I'd probably be better than if I moved on and received 10 more.....long or short.....

[kwaichang]

10 years isnt that long in CMA life. I thought you guys are the traditionalists, what happened to dedication and seeking knowledge. I was just feeding Madelyn and discovered a new technique for a part of Ching Kan Fu Hu Chien it is awesome . THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, YEAH!!!. And BTW over 40 isnt that bad I can do anything I want flexibility or otherwise. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yes.....but....

10 years of training SD might not be worth 1 year training something else.

Who knows unless you try?
I learned a ****load about ground defense in just a month of BJJ.......

But just enough to know I don't want to dish out the requisite cash in order to train in that exclusively.:p

[brucereiter]

Here's a fitting metaphor: When I'm reading War and Peace, I don't stop a quarter of the way through the book, and then pick up Anna Karenina in order to get a better understanding of War and PEace. It might improve my understanding of Tolstoy, but War and Peace would still be a mystery to me....





that could be true ... but you might use a dictionary or a thesaurus "in order to get a better understanding" when you are reading war and peace :-)


here is a bit of advice i give to some students :-)
receiving lessons + practice + perseverance + research + patience + practice + experimentation + sharing knowledge + testing theory + more practice! = path to skill

you are going to have to "carve your own path" if some students do not have or want a martial understanding of the material and just want to "collect forms" that is their business ... it is up to you everything you need to gain martial understanding is in my above advice (assuming the instruction is good ... lol ... with master reid i know from my own experience that it is :-) )


best,

b

[Lamassu]

10 years, 20 years...whatever. You mentioned earlier that you've embraced certain Buddhist and Taoist philosophies, so you should know that time is merely a linear measurement of series of events and shouldn't factor into your cma training, especially if you seek out what you said you are in the first place. Personally, I'm not upset or offended if you do decide to leave Shaolin Do. Hate to be brutally honest, but your leaving or staying has no impact on my training or life whatsoever. I'm only trying to give you some advice from my personal experiences. If you feel you should test other waters, then go ahead, it's a free country, but I want to impart to you what my Master told me when I left the North Austin kwoon and moved to Chicago: if you ever decide to come back, you're more than welcome to. You said you respect and admire your Master at your Shaolin Do kwoon, I advise, if you must leave, to do so on good terms with him, because he did, by your own admission, teach you some things of value, and who knows you may find out that all martial art schools are the same in how they're run and decide to return to the SD kwoon. One last bit of advise, be careful not to go from school to school every couple years or so, you know what they say: "Jack of all trades; Master of none".

[Shaolin Wookie]

"Jack of all trades; Master of none".

It's why I don't want to leave....yet am hesitant to stay.....

[BoulderDawg]

I got into MA because I had harmonized my personal philsophy with Taoism and Buddhism...especially Zen...and knew there were physical exercises associated with these philosophies (I weight trained and ran distance....but was looking for something more.....and kung fu seemed like the way). I believe it is the way.

I don't know about your school but at mine they have gone to great lenghts to make sure that everyone knows that the program at CSC is in no way, shape or form associated with the buddhist religion.

Personally I think the two cannot be separated. Afterall it spring from the Shaolin Temple.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Same deal here.....and I agree.

[John Many Jars]

You sound like me a couple years ago.

I really liked the school and the Soards but was getting extrememly frustrated w/ not only being pushed to but the ease in which people would pass to the next belt level. How nobody (fellow students) could show me applications from forms because they didn't really know them and didn't care to learn them. Then listening to the enlarged egos of said people spouting how good our art is and how they could kick anybody's a$$.

It was about that time I found this forum and Bullshido and things went even more downhill. There was the question of lineage, made up forms, how real/alive (for the Bullshidokas) the training is, etc. My training went to hell and I started bringing my bad attitude to class. It was at that point I realized I had to quit the school. Not only for myself but out of respect for the school and what it had given me (there were still a lot of positives).

All said and done, I took about 4 mos. off. During that time I still got together w/ some classmates and found ways to supplement my training so I was getting what I needed to feel happy. I'll tell ya, not being around the frustrations of class really gave me time to put things in perspective.

Going to class is much easier now. Not only do I check my ego at the door but also my expectations. I'm always looking for somebody to work on applications with, spar, or whatever I feel like doing that day during practice hour and I usually can find at least one person that's into it. If not, that's fine. They're there for their own reasons, not mine.

IMVHO, the art offers many things to many people but not everything to every person. I'm lucky enough to have found a way to make it work for me through training outside of class w/ people who have similar goals. You need to decide (which you're doing now) if you can make it work for you. Personally, I woudn't hinge my decision on GMT's visit. GMT isn't the one teaching you every week. It's your instructor. If he's good, he's good. If he's not, he's not.

If you're having doubts about how you're measuring up to other arts, then hook up w/ people outside of your school to see how you compare.

Good luck. =)



On a side note, again, I don't think Master Grooms studied w/ the Soards so any changes he made to forms wouldn't have been from them. =/

[The Xia]

Are you kidding me? You're seriously telling Wookie to wait 10 years before deciding on what he wants to do? I think that's a ridiculous thing for him to do. I think that's the kind of thing that some people think is traditional but isn't and makes a lot of MMA guys laugh at TMA.
The only way I’d say ok to dropping 10 years to decide is if Wookie were doing that sensory depravation chamber immortality thing and it actually worked.
Shaolin Wookie confirmed that he has already asked himself the two questions I listed. In my opinion, the best thing for him to do is to honestly answer them and act accordingly. That's my two cents.

[BlueTravesty]

I found an art I loved and wanted to stay with, but the school closed down due to a variety of factors :( But they say it's better to have loved and lost than not to have loved at all. In my case, "her" name was MyJhong, and "she" was a beaut.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=The Xia;738644]Are you kidding me? You're seriously telling Wookie to wait 10 years before deciding on what he wants to do?

I thought that was called a bad marriage:cool:
BQ

[BlueTravesty]

:D *rimshot*

[Lamassu]

Nobody here is saying Shaolin Wookie needs to stay with SD for 10 years before he decides if it's his cup of tea, at least, I'm not. I'm in perfect agreement with you that he should venture out, if only to see that despite all the smack talking on this forum from students of other schools, that they're no different from us. What this all boils down to is do we, Shaolin Do, lose a student to, any other cma out there in the U.S. As I said, I don't really care if he stays or goes because that is a personal decision on his part and doesn't really pertain to ANY of us, other than him asking for our imput and advice. Regardless, if I were to commit to a martial art, cma or otherwise, I personally, would stay with it for about a decade only because that's a long enough time to get to the meat of the martial art. Nothing worthwhile is easy and instant gratification is great for coffee and candy, but not for martial arts.

[The Xia]

I thought that was called a bad marriage:cool:
BQ
lol!!!! :D

[kwaichang]

THE GRASS ALWAYS SEEMS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE !!!
I am saying 2 years is not enough time remember the fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither KC:D

[The Xia]

Nobody here is saying Shaolin Wookie needs to stay with SD for 10 years before he decides if it's his cup of tea, at least, I'm not. I'm in perfect agreement with you that he should venture out, if only to see that despite all the smack talking on this forum from students of other schools, that they're no different from us. What this all boils down to is do we, Shaolin Do, lose a student to, any other cma out there in the U.S. As I said, I don't really care if he stays or goes because that is a personal decision on his part and doesn't really pertain to ANY of us, other than him asking for our imput and advice. Regardless, if I were to commit to a martial art, cma or otherwise, I personally, would stay with it for about a decade only because that's a long enough time to get to the meat of the martial art. Nothing worthwhile is easy and instant gratification is great for coffee and candy, but not for martial arts.
It seemed to me that KC was saying he should wait until he has 10 years in SD but whatever. I still disagree that roughly a decade in any art should be the key time for deciding on it, I feel that's way too long for all practicality. I agree with Yao Sing that a month should really do it.

THE GRASS ALWAYS SEEMS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE !!!
I am saying 2 years is not enough time remember the fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither KC:D
Actually, cross training is a time-honored tradition for martial artists across the globe. Besides, it seems that Wookie isn't just doing this to cross train but that he is at a crossroad where he wants to get to the bottom of what he's doing and see if he wants to take another road or not.
Sidenote-That’s a lot of uses of the word “cross”! :D

[Lamassu]

A month is enough time?! I don't care what martial art you study, the only way that is ample time to decide if the school you joined is right for you is if you're WAY off track, like say: "I want to focus on takedowns and ground fighting, and I end up in a wushu class!" You're still a white belt in one month's time for pete's sake! The core, the heart of ANY martial art cannot be ascertained in only ONE month's time! The way I see this so far is that KC wants Shaolin Wookie to wait too long and you want him out immedietly. I question your motives. Are you really concerned about Shaolin Wookie's CMA progress, or is it a chance for you to encourage a skeptic to leave Shaolin Do? I have faith in Shaolin Do, so much in fact that I WANT Shaolin Wookie to go out and explore and see for himself that all the other martial art schools out there are no different and NO BETTER than us!

[The Xia]

A month is enough time?! I don't care what martial art you study, the only way that is ample time to decide if the school you joined is right for you is if you're WAY off track, like say: "I want to focus on takedowns and ground fighting, and I end up in a wushu class!" You're still a white belt in one month's time for pete's sake! The core, the heart of ANY martial art cannot be ascertained in only ONE month's time!
I disagree, someone who has done enough research about martial arts and has an eye for what's what will be able to tell right away if something is the real deal or not. That aside, I think one month is enough for you to see how things are run and decide if that style is right for you. You may not go deep into the style in a month but you get a taste. And a taste is all it takes to see if you like something.

The way I see this so far is that KC wants Shaolin Wookie to wait too long and you want him out immedietly. I question your motives. Are you really concerned about Shaolin Wookie's CMA progress, or is it a chance for you to encourage a skeptic to leave Shaolin Do? I have faith in Shaolin Do, so much in fact that I WANT Shaolin Wookie to go out and explore and see for himself that all the other martial art schools out there are no different and NO BETTER than us!
If you've read through the bulk of my posts in this thread, you probably know my opinions about SD, so that's the view I'm coming from. You are free to feel the way you do about SD but I'm also free to feel the way I do. And just as you are free to comment based on the way you feel, so am I.

[kwaichang]

I think , as most have said, 10 years hardly scratches the surface. in any martial art. I trained in other systems for 10 years or more it only gave me greater insight to the MA KC:)

[Lamassu]

So there you have it. I believe you have more than enough imput within these past two pages of the post to make your decision. You have BLIND FAITH in Shaolin Do, and you have venemous words of those who don't care about you but simply hate Shaolin Do for their own delusional reasons. You are about to start a journey in self discovery, and regardless which path you end up taking, remember that ALL comments posted INCLUDING my own are asinine opinions and NO ONE knows what's best for you, but you.

[Yao Sing]

You have BLIND FAITH in Shaolin Do, and you have venemous words of those who don't care about you but simply hate Shaolin Do for their own delusional reasons.

I take exception to that rematk. He gets 2 'non-praise for everything SD' and you chalk it up to hate of SD for delusional reasons? I have no personal bias for or against SD. I couldn't care less whether he stays or not.

You're certainly not doing anything to put SD in a good light with comments like that.

And for the record nobody is saying you can get insight into the essence of a system in one month. What we're saying is that's long enough to see what's offered and how it's tught. Obviously if you see something of interest then stick with it a little longer to make a better decision.

I'm sure after 2 years he has a good idea of how the training goes there or are you suggesting it changes drastically for the better after a certain period of time?

What changes after 1st Black? All of a sudden you start sparring? All of a sudden they start teaching apps for every technique/form?

If you're learning crap the first month you're probably going to learn crap the following 1, 2, 3 years down the road. If you're looking to fight and the advanced students tell you there is no sparring class why stick around?

Apparently application is less then what he's comfortable with and the instruction is not what he expects from a martial arts school. If it's lacking in the first year it's likely to be lacking in the second year.

[BoulderDawg]

Just something that's crossed my mind:

How would someone handle leaving?

For example, if you were going to leave at the end of Feburary would you announce that now? Or would you wait until the last night and say "Goodbye folks!"? or would you simply leave and not say anything?

I go for not saying any goodbyes until the last night you are there. Because we all know human nature and no matter your excuse for leaving they'll be people there who will take it personally. That last week or so could be tough.

[NJM]

Tradition comes from the latin word traditio meaning to hand over or pass down. Having a belt ranking system is part of a new and different tradition . It does not make it any less "traditional " because it is used. I see this view as being shallow and non intrinsic. Nor does the uniform , the terminology/ language, or any of the outward appearances or physical/ symbolic rituals ,because of variation, make it any less traditional. What makes it traditional or not is whether it is taught, learned, and practice the same way for multiple generations. With all the same discipline , honor , respect , and loyalty,

Hey dude.

That post you quoted was just the explanation of another post, which, if you read, had nothing to do with judging the relevance of one tradition over another. I was just clarifying what I meant by a word in the above post. Learn 2 internet, fool. :D

[Lamassu]

I take exception to that rematk. He gets 2 'non-praise for everything SD' and you chalk it up to hate of SD for delusional reasons? I have no personal bias for or against SD. I couldn't care less whether he stays or not.

You're certainly not doing anything to put SD in a good light with comments like that.

And for the record nobody is saying you can get insight into the essence of a system in one month. What we're saying is that's long enough to see what's offered and how it's tught. Obviously if you see something of interest then stick with it a little longer to make a better decision.

I'm sure after 2 years he has a good idea of how the training goes there or are you suggesting it changes drastically for the better after a certain period of time?

What changes after 1st Black? All of a sudden you start sparring? All of a sudden they start teaching apps for every technique/form?

If you're learning crap the first month you're probably going to learn crap the following 1, 2, 3 years down the road. If you're looking to fight and the advanced students tell you there is no sparring class why stick around?

Apparently application is less then what he's comfortable with and the instruction is not what he expects from a martial arts school. If it's lacking in the first year it's likely to be lacking in the second year.

*sigh* :rolleyes:

You're right, by striking back at those that attack SD with no basis to do so, who even think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net, or gloss over what's stated in those websites with over generalization, or criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand... aren't I the heel to think less of those who think less of me and mine?

Sparring begins once you earn your yellow belt, and learning practical applications start at day one. These of course differ from instructor to instructor, though a poor instructor doesn't accurately represent other kwoons or the system itself, so it depends on who's teaching the student. What happens after you receive your 1st degree bb is you learn more complex and longer forms, in fact that's all you learn (while you do more sparring and practical application). After you receive your bb, you are expected to be mature and clever enough to figure out various practical applications on your own, and no, they may not be what the original intent of the form may be, but that's the point, to discover new practical applications from these forms and to challenge the student both physically and mentally. Has ANYONE here on this forum ever just THINK about a form they learned and what the practical applications are on their own?!! Why is this such a bizzare concept to everyone??!! :confused:

BTW, CMA trolls, when GMT talks about achieving immortality through a sensory deprivation tank, he doesn't mean it literally! Does anyone here even know what a sensory deprivation tank is?!! It's pretty self explanitory to me, GMT puts himself in an environment where he can neither see, nor hear, nor smell, nor touch, nor taste the outside world, so he won't be distracted and can therefore focus on various forms, philosophies, beliefs...whatever! He's not the first person to do this and he won't be the last.

The arrogance of those who belittle SD, with practically NO knowledge of it or it's forms, can only be matched by their ignorance!

[The Xia]

*sigh* :rolleyes:

You're right, by striking back at those that attack SD with no basis to do so, who even think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net, or gloss over what's stated in those websites with over generalization, or criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand... aren't I the heel to think less of those who think less of me and mine?
Have you read the things anti-SD people say on this thread? My opinions are based on the information I've read about the system and the skill I've seen of practitioners.

BTW, CMA trolls, when GMT talks about achieving immortality through a sensory deprivation tank, he doesn't mean it literally! Does anyone here even know what a sensory deprivation tank is?!! It's pretty self explanitory to me, GMT puts himself in an environment where he can neither see, nor hear, nor smell, nor touch, nor taste the outside world, so he won't be distracted and can therefore focus on various forms, philosophies, beliefs...whatever! He's not the first person to do this and he won't be the last.
So are you saying that Sin The's way of telling people that he wants to spend some time alone is announcing that he is going to achieve immortality through a sensory depravation tank?

The arrogance of those who belittle SD, with practically NO knowledge of it or it's forms, can only be matched by their ignorance!
I read about the system, read what people said about it, and have watched SDers doing forms. I guess I'm arrogant for forming an opinion based on that. :rolleyes:

[Meat Shake]

This subject is like a hydra... cut its head off once and seven more debates grow out of the wound...
I havent browsed these forums in quite some time.... Over a year.
I trained SD.
I am the one and only person here to hold the official moniker of Shaolin-Do.
I was proud of it once... I was also young and foolish. Its kinda like how you think Bud Ice is the greatest beer on earth.... Until you try an import.
No one wants to admit that what they work so hard for may not be what it was believed to be in the beginning. Everyone wants to cling on to the last bit of hope that what they have been told and believed as truth to be real, whether or not it goes against their better judgement.
I ask only one thing of you that study SD and continue to believe in it...
If you are training for fun, for health, or simply for something to do, by all means rid yourself of the burden of debating senselessly on online forums and enjoy what it is that you do. If you wish to learn how to fight however... Find an MMA student, Judo, Brazilian Jiujitsu, or Muay Thai student, and spar with them. See what you can use that you have learned. Dont tell me "Its too Deadly", because its not. I studied SD for about 2 years, and I have a great deal of respect for the people I trained with because in all honesty they treated me like family. The art I learned however, regardless of how cool some of the moves may look, was not anything that I would call effective. Its even to the point that anything besides some of the basic punches and kicks could get you seriously injured in a real confrontation.
Train hard and love what you do, but keep yourself grounded. Dont lose touch with reality. Its hard to let go of something you have worked hard to achieve, but open your eyes. The truth is right in front of you....

[Lamassu]

I think you're one of the few who criticize and express your opinion in a respectful manner. I understand that not everyone will like SD, but to insult people who do like it is pretty demeaning, and you can't admit that we SDer's, well, not most of us anyway, deserve to be treated like that, or like we're some joke. It's crap like that, that deterioates any meaningful conversation we try to have on this forum into mud slinging. It just seems like everytime one of us puts in our two cents about something, we're ridiculed right off the bat. I still spent 6 years of my life training in forms, sparring a wide variety of partners from little guys to giants, from white belts to 6th degree black belts. I still go home and practice my forms so that I maintain them in my muscle memory, and I still do about half an hour of stance training every day.

As for GMT striving for "immortality" in a sensory deprivation tank, I don't take that literally, and it's stupid to think otherwise.

For the record, I agree with you and Yao Sing that Shaolin Wookie should venture out and experiment with other schools, but for different reasons other than yours.

[Meat Shake]

Just understand that SD has been a subject on this forum as long as this forum has existed... This is nothing new. Some people have become callous in talking to others about it over time.
It does seem however, that the overwhelming majority of SD students who still believe whole heartedly in it and its capabilities, do not have much experience in "combat arts".
I left SD for Shuai Chiao, BJJ, and Muay Thai.
Its harder on the body, but for fighting, its more real.
I can simply equate it with learning to cook reading cook books without ever firing up the stove. Maybe you looked at your pots and pans, even tasted the sugar... But understanding how it all works together in action is integral to success.
What you study will however, at least keep you healthy, both mentally and physically. (So long as you continue to love what you do)
And in all honesty, if you believe in what you do, and enjoy it, does it really matter what people on an internet forum have to say?
And a CMA forum for f*cks sake? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Half the people here are working just as hard to become a level 14 wizard as they are at learning to fight. :eek:
(Lightning bolt!)

[brucereiter]

If you're having doubts about how you're measuring up to other arts, then hook up w/ people outside of your school to see how you compare.

i have always though it was a good idea to meet with people from other schools and systems to "compare notes" doing so is one of the things that has affirmed many of the lessons i have learned from shaolin do.




I don't think Master Grooms studied w/ the Soards so any changes he made to forms wouldn't have been from them. =/


my teacher sr master grooms earned his first degree black belt under the soards when he lived in denver and learned almost everything from 1st to 2nd Black from them. Everything else with a couple of exceptions he got directly from grandmaster the'.

As far as “tweaking” of forms teachers try to teach as they were taught sometimes small things change but most of the material has been consistent since I started. I have noticed when visiting other sd schools that people do the forms different even from school to school under the same master …

at some point in your training you will perform some "moves" in your own way with your own understanding instead of your teachers understanding but while you are at the beginning of the learning process you will need to rely on your teachers "understanding" since at that point you might have no basis to make your own decisions from ... :-)

best,

b

[ninthdrunk]

I have always found it interesting that if people stick around for any length of time, of the ones who quit, most seem to quit after six months or two years. These time tables have been found to be the exact same length of time as the "infatuation" stage in dating. What's funny, is that so many people who end up leaving shaolin do around these time tables, are also the ones who spout out the most on their own behalf: "I train X amount of hours every day" "I have the most respect for my teacher" "I work very hard" etc. This always strikes me as pretty funny, since it's often really hard to find faults in ourselves when we're breaking up with someone as well. And sometimes, which is hard to admit too, there's no one at fault...y'all just don't mesh.

Man, sometimes you just don't want to do what it is you're doing after the infatuation has worn off. No biggie. It seems like you either A) really want someone to tell you why you should stay, or B) tell you why you should leave. In other words, it's like you're trying to rationalize your decision with a message board...you know setting up some sort of self-determination based on what you get here. And for the most part, we really only pay attention to the evidence supporting our decision anyway. Well, you seem like a pretty intelligent kid/guy/chick/whatever, and in relationships, it's good to have a support group. But, I think in this case I think you need to find an objective audience...people who don't have a stake in your decision (and in some small way, anyone who answers on here does have a stake). Deep down, I think you know what you want; I'm sure you can tell whether it's cold feet, or if you're really ready to leave

ps. If you decide to stick around, pm me for what I think is some of the best advice I've ever received about rank advancement and learning new material. I was where you were for awhile and Master Schaefer really helped put it in perspective for me.

[Baqualin]

I have always found it interesting that if people stick around for any length of time, of the ones who quit, most seem to quit after six months or two years. These time tables have been found to be the exact same length of time as the "infatuation" stage in dating. What's funny, is that so many people who end up leaving shaolin do around these time tables, are also the ones who spout out the most on their own behalf: "I train X amount of hours every day" "I have the most respect for my teacher" "I work very hard" etc. This always strikes me as pretty funny, since it's often really hard to find faults in ourselves when we're breaking up with someone as well. And sometimes, which is hard to admit too, there's no one at fault...y'all just don't mesh.

Man, sometimes you just don't want to do what it is you're doing after the infatuation has worn off. No biggie. It seems like you either A) really want someone to tell you why you should stay, or B) tell you why you should leave. In other words, it's like you're trying to rationalize your decision with a message board...you know setting up some sort of self-determination based on what you get here. And for the most part, we really only pay attention to the evidence supporting our decision anyway. Well, you seem like a pretty intelligent kid/guy/chick/whatever, and in relationships, it's good to have a support group. But, I think in this case I think you need to find an objective audience...people who don't have a stake in your decision (and in some small way, anyone who answers on here does have a stake). Deep down, I think you know what you want; I'm sure you can tell whether it's cold feet, or if you're really ready to leave

ps. If you decide to stick around, pm me for what I think is some of the best advice I've ever received about rank advancement and learning new material. I was where you were for awhile and Master Schaefer really helped put it in perspective for me.

Most logical post on this subject yet....good to hear from you 9th....looking foward to seeing you at Meteor Fist!
I've seen the same thing seems like brown belt has the highest drop out rate.

[ninthdrunk]

BQ-

Yeah! I can hardly contain myself these days. I got really bummed a couple weeks ago when I remembered/realized that I had been thinking March came after January! hahaha...I was so excited that I blocked out a whole month.

Oh, so did anything ever get figured out about our little gathering? If not, no sweat, but it would be nice to get together afterward. I'm actually planning on taking at least an extra couple days in the area so maybe we could hook up after the excitement dies down a little?

[KungFu Student]

"Here's the skinny of it. I don't like the advancement system--I think it's too easy for some slackers to advance. I understand the business aspect of the school, believe me I do. But it makes me wonder if it's the right place for me, as an individual. Everyone asks me why I don't advance....I say, remembering a form is not "knowing" a form. They seem kind of bewildered by my reply. That always surprises me."

S.W., I know what you are talking about. I have seen what I consider "posers" testing and not know the material as well as they should. And it used to bother me. When I came to the understanding that their advancement, sometimes past me, has nothing to do with how good of a student I am, then things were all right. Some students seem to pick up the movements faster than me, and that is ok. It takes me a while to get the form down, and I work on it until I get it right. I am particularly bad about busting short kata's out fast and powerful. But those who move on, without truly understanding what they are studying, will have it come back to bite them later on.
My Master is running a business, and tests people who meet the requirements. However, I believe that he can tell the people who are in it because it is "cool" and those who are in it for the long haul. I mean, I waited almost five months before I even tested for my first Tai Chi sash. But in the end, he told me that he could tell I put in some hard work, and never has a issue with people who put in the extra time. Why should he? That just shows him dedication to the art.
I hope you figure out what road you want to travel. If it is with S.D. then great. If not, the choice is yours. But in the end, the road you travel is yours alone, and you should not let others tell you what road to take, they can just offer directions. :D

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=The Xia;738732]
So are you saying that Sin The's way of telling people that he wants to spend some time alone is announcing that he is going to achieve immortality through a sensory depravation tank?

Come on Xia your picking at words here....I already told you GMS is using the sensory depravation tank for mediation purposes.

No your not arrogant....you've made your observations on what you've heard and seen......no one has provided you with any information to change your opinion so far.....I have no problems with your post, the're always very logical & sometimes funny, but your running the sensory tank into the ground.;)
BQ

[Baqualin]

Just understand that SD has been a subject on this forum as long as this forum has existed... This is nothing new. Some people have become callous in talking to others about it over time.
It does seem however, that the overwhelming majority of SD students who still believe whole heartedly in it and its capabilities, do not have much experience in "combat arts".
I left SD for Shuai Chiao, BJJ, and Muay Thai.
Its harder on the body, but for fighting, its more real.
I can simply equate it with learning to cook reading cook books without ever firing up the stove. Maybe you looked at your pots and pans, even tasted the sugar... But understanding how it all works together in action is integral to success.
What you study will however, at least keep you healthy, both mentally and physically. (So long as you continue to love what you do)
And in all honesty, if you believe in what you do, and enjoy it, does it really matter what people on an internet forum have to say?
And a CMA forum for f*cks sake? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Half the people here are working just as hard to become a level 14 wizard as they are at learning to fight. :eek:
(Lightning bolt!)

Where did you obtain your SD experience at??
BQ

[kwaichang]

You know guys some of you make these blanket statments about people who train in SD. Like many who are "believers" of SD have not done "real" combat arts. etc etc. Well Bull , those who train in the "MMA" {mixed up martial arts} seem to forget that most of the guys there have done "Traditional" MA for a long time. Like wise : since we arent pulling punches here, I have to agree with BQ as it were , when the going gets tough : the tough get going. In other words it is harder to train consistently in a Martial art that is like SD or Hung Gar or White Crane etc than the MMA BS. Lets define kick boxing ok: conditioning 4-5 kicks and boxing . There you have it. In a nut shell. It is much more difficult to Master a classical art where things take time to master or they work easily. thats where the art comes in.
So in a nut shell PEOPLE ARE BASICALLY LAZY AND LOOK FOR THE EASY WAY OUT. Much like those Brown belts / sashes who want to change and find their satori through the constant change so they can remain the enlightened White Belt and thus feed their EGO. Those who use excuses to change are simply too lazy to try and continue so they are the ego awe of the new school. KC

[Meat Shake]

Where did you obtain your SD experience at??
BQ

San Antonio, TX.

Kwaichang-
Are you saying that MMA is easy, and kung fu is much more difficult?

[Mas Judt]

How is MMA BS?

Look, by traditionalists, I'd be classified as a traditionalist. By MMA guys, I'm a MMA guy. Fighting is fighting.

Good MMA is HARD WORK. Heck, High School wrestlers work out harder and against more resistance than most 'martial artists.'

The fact is... and this is hard for a lot of people: most 'traditional' schools s@ck. It's true. It's always been true. Most 'traditional' schools don't practice real fighting, don't know they don't, or just don't understand how to really prepare for it. That being said, a good 'traditional school' can offer some great stuff - as long as it hasn't devolved into 'Society for Creative Anachronism' dedicated to preserving outdated war arts.

Meat Shake is correct. Heck Seven star came to a San Da seminar I gave years ago. He showed me his stuff. I felt bad, but i had to reccommend the Muay Thai & Judo, because his CMA options s@cked where he lived.

Fighting is fighting.

Now, it is tue that certain CMA do involve a much greater effort to develop the specific shen fa of the system. But in SD's case it is just memorizing a bunch of forms devoid of the original intent. So, I'd be wary of Meat Shake.

[Baqualin]

Where did you obtain your SD experience at??
BQ

San Antonio, TX.
I thought you all did some ground fighting there?
Kwaichang-
Are you saying that MMA is easy, and kung fu is much more difficult?

Getting your ass kicked is never easy.....what I think KC may be saying is it takes alot longer to effectively learn how to use the higher level techniques in chinese kung fu (most people never do) than the basic stuff you learned in two years of SD (kick & punch) and in the techniques used in most all competition fighting. And by the way we have SD people out there fighting in the cage and doing quite well...they love it when they get sh!t before they get in the ring. And some of us cross train with ground stylist or even Tai Chi Masters. H#ll even KC's training is as much other styles as SD....JP gets out there and goes a round or 2
Bottom line is what's best for you......everyone is different.....if you want to ring fight then train to ring fight....if you want to learn an ancient martial ART
then train for that.

By the way your very young now and can still fly....when your fifty Tai Chi will look alot different to you and when you look at the ring or mat you will hurt all over:cool:

[Baqualin]

How is MMA BS?

Look, by traditionalists, I'd be classified as a traditionalist. By MMA guys, I'm a MMA guy. Fighting is fighting.

Good MMA is HARD WORK. Heck, High School wrestlers work out harder and against more resistance than most 'martial artists.'

The fact is... and this is hard for a lot of people: most 'traditional' schools s@ck. It's true. It's always been true. Most 'traditional' schools don't practice real fighting, don't know they don't, or just don't understand how to really prepare for it. That being said, a good 'traditional school' can offer some great stuff - as long as it hasn't devolved into 'Society for Creative Anachronism' dedicated to preserving outdated war arts.

Meat Shake is correct. Heck Seven star came to a San Da seminar I gave years ago. He showed me his stuff. I felt bad, but i had to reccommend the Muay Thai & Judo, because his CMA options s@cked where he lived.

Fighting is fighting.

Now, it is tue that certain CMA do involve a much greater effort to develop the specific shen fa of the system. But in SD's case it is just memorizing a bunch of forms devoid of the original intent. So, I'd be wary of Meat Shake.

Not all SD schools just work on memorizing forms
The rest I agree with....If you want to fight competition you have to train for it or get your butt handed to you....strongest, fastest, bigest will win no matter the style.

[kwaichang]

? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??
I think not.
Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning.
I speak from experience when I say this.
Kung fu traditionally taught is harder, if it is done right.
Why ? It involves the brain as well as the body. Example is Go Rin No Sho, The Art of War . Both Combat thesis but neither talk much about conditioning and mostly about Technique , strategy and Mind . Who of you have fought for real or has it been just sport. KC

[Yao Sing]

*sigh* :rolleyes:

You're right, by striking back at those that attack SD with no basis to do so, who even think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net, or gloss over what's stated in those websites with over generalization, or criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand... aren't I the heel to think less of those who think less of me and mine?

No, you were striking back at those that didn't tow the SD party line and YOU didn't like what you were reading and I'm calling you on it. All the SD peeps pretty much told him to stick it out except for The Xia and myself.

Either show me where I "attack SD with no basis to do so", "think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net", "criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand" or apologize for mischaracterizing my comments.

Man up or be the typical Internat a$$hole. Your choice.


I read about the system, read what people said about it, and have watched SDers doing forms. I guess I'm arrogant for forming an opinion based on that. :rolleyes:

Yeah, you haven't spent 10 years in the system so who are you to make a judgement? :)

[brucereiter]

? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??
I think not.
Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning.
I speak from experience when I say this.
Kung fu traditionally taught is harder, if it is done right.
Why ? It involves the brain as well as the body. Example is Go Rin No Sho, The Art of War . Both Combat thesis but neither talk much about conditioning and mostly about Technique , strategy and Mind . Who of you have fought for real or has it been just sport. KC
hi kc,

i went to a pro mma fight last weekend. i saw a lot of skill specifically from nissen osterneck and from micah miller. i think both of those fighters have great conditioning and great "sensitivity" and great understanding of how the body works. lots of skill was shown. not just conditioning ... on the other hand i saw fighters who were just thugs with a lot of muscle beating on each other. i dont think you can generalize any art. it is the individual not the system they choose :-)

[Meat Shake]

Hehehe... Where to start...

"And by the way we have SD people out there fighting in the cage and doing quite well..."

Who? What venues?

" ? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??"

Actually... Ive lived downtown in Minneapolis without a car for the last 2 years. Go online and look at the crime rate. Every 2 weeks there are between 6-20 violent crimes in within the 4 square mile radius between my place and CPA's. Not to mention the few nights stumbling home drunk across an empty downtown at 3 am...

"Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning."
This is just a statement of pure delusion... Nice statistics btw. How many times have you seen an immaculately healthy man get taken down by some tub of sh!t with large hulking man boobs? Plenty. Skill without conditioning is like having bullets with no gun.

As I said, if you are just interested in getting in shape, SD is great. So is Tai Chi. Tai Chi because of the breath focus is even good for your brain. Doesnt mean they make you a good fighter. Fighting does.

[John Many Jars]

my teacher sr master grooms earned his first degree black belt under the soards when he lived in denver and learned almost everything from 1st to 2nd Black from them. Everything else with a couple of exceptions he got directly from grandmaster the'.


Well, he can't be all bad if he lived in Denver. ;) j/k

Thanks for the info. I've only heard the Atlanta school mentioned once in class by a student who said the schools weren't connected and his web site never listed the Soards as his instructors.


You know, a bullet doesn't have to be shot out of a gun to poke somebody's eye out. :D

I'll probably get slammed from both sides for this but because of the way we train (at least at my school), the majority of students won't become great fighters, most likely not even good. I think they'll probably become better fighters than they were but not great. There are always exceptions and I see most of those exceptions in the higher ranks. Time definately seems to have its advantages in this art.

I haven't fought in pro or amatuer venues or (knock on wood) been in a street fight, so I can't back my statements up in that respect. But some of my classmates and I put the gloves on fairly regularly and up the intensity and speed at which we spar and I do see a lot of growth there. Maybe not as much or as fast as people training boxing, MT, wrestling or any other full contact sport but there definately is some there.

Just my 2 cents.


-So I don't give the wrong impression, there isn't a student at my school I can think of that I don't respect for the time and effort they've put into this art.

[Baqualin]

Hehehe... Where to start...

"And by the way we have SD people out there fighting in the cage and doing quite well..."

Who? What venues?

" ? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??"

Actually... Ive lived downtown in Minneapolis without a car for the last 2 years. Go online and look at the crime rate. Every 2 weeks there are between 6-20 violent crimes in within the 4 square mile radius between my place and CPA's. Not to mention the few nights stumbling home drunk across an empty downtown at 3 am...

"Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning."
This is just a statement of pure delusion... Nice statistics btw. How many times have you seen an immaculately healthy man get taken down by some tub of sh!t with large hulking man boobs? Plenty. Skill without conditioning is like having bullets with no gun.

As I said, if you are just interested in getting in shape, SD is great. So is Tai Chi. Tai Chi because of the breath focus is even good for your brain. Doesnt mean they make you a good fighter. Fighting does.

Most of us are not calling MMA BS If you train to fight all out full contact no matter your style you will be a good fighter...if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck.
You guys are arguing over nothing.

[BoulderDawg]

I'll probably get slammed from both sides for this but because of the way we train (at least at my school), the majority of students won't become great fighters, most likely not even good. I think they'll probably become better fighters than they were but not great. There are always exceptions and I see most of those exceptions in the higher ranks. Time definately seems to have its advantages in this art.

The honest to god truth about it is that we receive no training. During the time that the Soards were away we did not even spar for three months. Even now we've lucky if we do it once a week.

Even then it's "Grab your sparring equipment.........spar". So we dance around for a few minutes and thats about it. We have also done some silly stuff such as all black belts versus all brown belts........There really is no training or advice giving during sparring. However, of course, any sparring is better than none at all. You'll be able to pick up a little on your own.

[Lamassu]

No, you were striking back at those that didn't tow the SD party line and YOU didn't like what you were reading and I'm calling you on it. All the SD peeps pretty much told him to stick it out except for The Xia and myself.

Either show me where I "attack SD with no basis to do so", "think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net", "criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand" or apologize for mischaracterizing my comments.

Man up or be the typical Internat a$$hole. Your choice.

Yeah, you haven't spent 10 years in the system so who are you to make a judgement? :)

This whole **** thread is nothing but SD bashing, and SDer's defending their art, look at the title of the thread for pete's sake. How many times must I say that I agreed with you and Xia about Shaolin Wookie trying out other schools? How many? Do you black out when you come across those very words or merely gloss over them and continue to be antagonistic towards me? As for internet a$$hole, yes I am one, but no bigger than you, Xia, or anyone else on this forum swinging their ego's around and talking mad smack. This, BTW, has gone WAY off topic and now it's only a matter of pointless bickering. I'm done with it, think of me however you like, like Xia said: I have my opinions and he has his and you have yours. I'm having too good of a day to let this petty bickering that you won't let die, ruin it. :)

BTW, no, I haven't been in SD for 10 years, only 6 and hopefully I'll be able to continue my training until the day I die. :cool:

[godzillakungfu]

The honest to god truth about it is that we receive no training. During the time that the Soards were away we did not even spar for three months. Even now we've lucky if we do it once a week.

Even then it's "Grab your sparring equipment.........spar". So we dance around for a few minutes and thats about it. We have also done some silly stuff such as all black belts versus all brown belts........There really is no training or advice giving during sparring. However, of course, any sparring is better than none at all. You'll be able to pick up a little on your own.
It wasn't always like that. Not trying to say the schools alway made good fighters. Just saying there is a reason your upper ranks look good. It has less to do with time and more to do with contact.

[Mas Judt]

"? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??
I think not.
Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning.
I speak from experience when I say this.
Kung fu traditionally taught is harder, if it is done right.
Why ? It involves the brain as well as the body. Example is Go Rin No Sho, The Art of War . Both Combat thesis but neither talk much about conditioning and mostly about Technique , strategy and Mind . Who of you have fought for real or has it been just sport. KC"

Kwai - the above post makes it very clear that you do not even have a frame of reference to make an intelligent observation. You need to crawl out from under your rock and get some experience young puppy...

[John Many Jars]

BoulderDawg,

This is what, IMHO, you should do. When a form is being taught, at some point, Master Dave or Sharon usually show applications for the form. When they do, remember them. Some of them are easier to pick up than others so if you have a question about what they're doing, ask them as they're showing it or after class.

Outside of class or during practice hour get w/ a parter and work on those applications. Turn them into a one step technique, gradually increasing the amount of resistance and have the attacker change the timing up. Then start incorporating that into your sparring.

If what I was trying to do wasn't working I'll go up to the person I was sparring (usually the highest rank I can get to spar w/ me) and say "I was trying to get this in but it just wasn't happening. Am I doing something wrong?" More often than not I'll get a good answer.

You've got some really good upper level BB in Boulder. People, I consider to be tough, not just good at doing forms. Those are the ones I would seek out, if I were you.


*edit* BoulderDawg check your PM's

[Meat Shake]

"if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck."


Its not just that... SD is not geared for fighting, it is geared for forms. Straight down to the impractical moves that are taught.
That said.... I honestly dont think its much if any worse off than a good amount of other "traditional" styles of kung fu.
When I started Shuai Chiao, on my very first day, I spent 2 hours being thrown like a ragdoll to learn how to fall. As training progressed, the sessions moved to 4 hours of throwing and being thrown, and free wrestling, which was nothing more than applying what we had learned in a practical situation against a resisting opponent. Generally we would roll for the last 30 minutes to hour after we were already exhausted.
SD... I went in, we would do kicks, do punches, hit a bag, hit a bag moving, do forms, do kicks, do punches, do some more forms, swing around some weapons, and spar for 10 minutes with light contact and no realistic feedback.

[John Many Jars]

SD... I went in, we would do kicks, do punches, hit a bag, hit a bag moving, do forms, do kicks, do punches, do some more forms, swing around some weapons, and spar for 10 minutes with light contact and no realistic feedback.

When you say realistic feedback are you referring to the level of contact or lack of instruction? Just curious.

[tattooedmonk]

"if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck."


Its not just that... SD is not geared for fighting, it is geared for forms. Straight down to the impractical moves that are taught.
That said.... I honestly dont think its much if any worse off than a good amount of other "traditional" styles of kung fu.
When I started Shuai Chiao, on my very first day, I spent 2 hours being thrown like a ragdoll to learn how to fall. As training progressed, the sessions moved to 4 hours of throwing and being thrown, and free wrestling, which was nothing more than applying what we had learned in a practical situation against a resisting opponent. Generally we would roll for the last 30 minutes to hour after we were already exhausted.
SD... I went in, we would do kicks, do punches, hit a bag, hit a bag moving, do forms, do kicks, do punches, do some more forms, swing around some weapons, and spar for 10 minutes with light contact and no realistic feedback. Well I would say a great deal of your problem, and many others like you, is that there was not enough real training for fighting and more emphasis put on health and teaching material.

Quite simply there are not enough hours at the schools to put the time into practical application and usage. And I agree but not all SD / CSC schools are like this ( most are though).

Although the art is authentic Shaolin it is looked at more as a business/ social endeavor rather than a martial arts training center.

To combat this for years I personally took it upon myself to get together with students and take each of the elements of each form and teach and practice practical application and usage.

I am no longer affiliated but I still believe in SD and GMS. I learned all the material through 6th black ( which is more than enough for a lifetime)and now teach what I have learned with fighting and practical application the way that it should be done .

Do not get me wrong the business , social, and health / fitness aspect is very important but not as much as the practical application, usage, and the integrity of The Art.

I believe that this is compromised by the business aspect and the lack of Taoist , Confucist, Buddhist, and shamanist PHILOSOPHY.

Oh by the way my shuai jiao training has helped my bagua zhang out a whole hell of a lot.

[tattooedmonk]

BoulderDawg,

This is what, IMHO, you should do. When a form is being taught, at some point, Master Dave or Sharon usually show applications for the form. When they do, remember them. Some of them are easier to pick up than others so if you have a question about what they're doing, ask them as they're showing it or after class.

Outside of class or during practice hour get w/ a parter and work on those applications. Turn them into a one step technique, gradually increasing the amount of resistance and have the attacker change the timing up. Then start incorporating that into your sparring.

If what I was trying to do wasn't working I'll go up to the person I was sparring (usually the highest rank I can get to spar w/ me) and say "I was trying to get this in but it just wasn't happening. Am I doing something wrong?" More often than not I'll get a good answer.

You've got some really good upper level BB in Boulder. People, I consider to be tough, not just good at doing forms. Those are the ones I would seek out, if I were you.


*edit* BoulderDawg check your PM'sI agree!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

Most of us are not calling MMA BS If you train to fight all out full contact no matter your style you will be a good fighter...if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck.
You guys are arguing over nothing. I agree. .........

[Shaolin Wookie]

After talking with plenty of people from both sides of the table, I've figured out a way to maximize my training with what I believe will be better results.

I sat down this afternoon (boss called me out today...got a day of rest:cool: ) and did something I considered hokey and pointless. I started drafting my goals for training. What I wanted to accomplish this year. Fitness. Conditioning. Skill. Refinement, etc.

Then I examined, honestly, what kind of person I am. I'm a painter, a writer, a pianist (poor one:o ), a runner, athelete, martial artist, philosopher, soon-to-be grad student looking to teach.

Then I examined my relationships with each of these facets of my personality, and how I'd dealt with them, and how I'd refined each of them.

I found a parallel: As a painter, I was an ardent artist all my life. So it was my decision to make it one of my two majors in college. I passed the reviews, took the classes, and began to learn new approaches (very new) to my art. The first class I took, the teacher collected everyone's materials and then confiscated them (almost all pencils and pens--my bread and butter:eek: ). He said: "you can have these back at the end of the year." Then he handed us big blocky 25 cent charcoal, and said: "Today you learn how to draw." It was true. I had to learn all over again, and it made me a thousand times better. But it wasn't all a labor in paradise. I struggled with various teachers really hard. There were at least two times I nearly dropped out of the art program to major in English alone. But every time I got to the point where I felt there was just no hope of coping with the program (very abstract-oriented, not much room for realists)....I would pull out my portfolio, set my latest works beside my older ones, and just critique myself...very honestly.

It was at these times I began to realize how I'd changed as an artist. I'd begun to think differently, approach things differently, see them differently, and describe them differently. But until that moment, where I really sat down to criticize myself, I'd felt like I'd hit a wall, and I couldn't see past it. And then, wham, some relfection and introspection would just punch right through that wall. I'd see these vast changes, and where they could take me.

I guess this kind of describes what I've been going through. I'm not through it, but at least I'm finding a way to get around it. It's much harder to gauge your progress in martial arts, because there's no finished product to look at. It's just....do I feel like I've made progress? Am I better? Do I enjoy what I'm doing? Would I do better elsewhere?

Well, I still enjoyed it. I wasn't sure I was better, though...but how could I not be? I just didn't feel like I'd made any progress. But when I looked around, I saw a couple of people I thought were on another level--where I wanted to end up. So surely SD was the right path. I've just got to find my way in the Way (redundant, I know:p ). It's not gonna be "one size fits all". I might have to make some of my own adjustments....in my mind, viewpoint, etc. Then I reminded myself that I'm always my own worst critic. I hate positive feedback. I don't feel it helps me much. I only want to hear negative criticism. That's just how I work, I guess. So I was probably just full of my own self-abnegation. Everything else...the whole real-shaolin...fake shaolin...Master The' this...Master The' that....that was all a cop out. It has nothing to do with training. It's all just the packaging. It wasn't the product, if you guys can feel me. I'm not going to apologize for the things I said, though--they were said in earnest. But as regards Master The': if he taught the guys I consider "on another level," then he's got to be good enough for me....just seems logical. If I can learn from him I should, rather than just scrutinize. Funny, usually that's my motto. Just don't know what's come over me recently....maybe I jsut had to expand my viewpoint.

So many people gave me good advice these past two weeks. But the best came from my brother yesterday. We'd been doing BJJ (me cross-training) for the past month....but didn't plan on doing it anymore (he was paying for both of us, and apparently World of Warcraft was more important to him..."dude, I just started a draenei Shaman....:D ....what a ****....haha....). Anyway, I told him I was considering a switch. He asked why. I told him, more or less.

He just said: dude, you've never quit anything in your life. Well, I disagreed. I mentioned religion and a bunch of other things. And he just replied: yeah, man, but you question everything. It's just what you do, and you'll never stop doing that.

So I kind of came to the realization that I was just doing what I do best (the conversation was much longer, and he was acutally informative---surprise surprise....my wierd, lazy brother:eek: ). All I was doing was struggling with some questions I needed to answer for myself. I've made that my new M.O. in the martial arts, now, rather than being spoonfed dogma--to seek. My brother told me: "Dude, if you lived in another era, you'd start up a Revolution just to see what'd happen." It was kind of true. I'm just a ****kicker, prankster, all around monkeyman...so I'm always going to be picking at something. I guess my martial arts was the subject of the day. My teacher talked with me that night, for which I am thankful, and it just reinforced what I'd been thinking about.

I'm sticking with what I'm doing. I've just got to hammer out the kinks. Can't quit. I don't plan on testing anytime soon. I'm going to focus on the external stuff, and my Tai Chi. So I'll just be doing one side of hte coin (mostly anyways, since I really do Tai Chi for body mechanics to help my fu...though I think my fu makes my Chi better....weird....). Tai Chi is a lot to handle in itself...and I don't really want to tack anymore internal stuff onto that struggle. On the off days, I could cross-train in SPM, if I feel like it....and right now I have the urge to look around. So, I could do that, and probably will. It's really different from what I learn now, in shape anyways. I think it'll help me make some progress. Maybe it won't....but at least I'll have satisfied my curiousity....and I'm a man ruled by curiousity. It's just the way I am. I know that, and I always have known that. I want to do everything, but I want to do one thing excellently. Sprout a root, then branch out....but stay grounded in the root. I figure I'm the guy who's always going to look, maybe even dabble here and there, but keep his roots solid.

Man, I hope my girlfriend never reads that.........

Anyways....I think I'm just going to read a book at work now. So much for this forum for a while. Not to slight it, but I could be doing something better. I can even work on some tension excercises instead. Might as well. Although, I've always treated this forum like a Demosthenian society--man, I miss those things....so it does have its value...kind of.....and it gives you a decent education in argument, so long as you can ignore a troll or two.

Well, later dudes....

[kwaichang]

What kind of experience would you recommend that I havent done. Or am doing . I have trained in many fighting arts probably longer than you have been alive.
Boxing at 6 years old
Began CMA at 11
Japanese Karate at 17
Boxed pro from 19 to 24
Entered no holds barred Matches 22-27, Bouncer in Numerous bars in Nashville and C/ Ville
Studied Ai Ki jutsu and Judo along with Japanese Karate hard style until 34
Began SD at 34
Trained with pro kick boxers including light welter and welter weight world champion
Fought Anthony the Amp elmore World Kick Boxing Heavy weight Champ
Train 5-7 days per week cross train with 10-15 rounds 4 x per week Heavy Bag work
No Puppy here son. KC
PS I didnt have time or room for all of it sorry, Oh did I mention Instructoe for joint special forces team ranger , airborne Navy special ops ??

[Mas Judt]

Nah, we're probably about the same age 'son'.

Unfortunately this just makes you look a little thick....

[Baqualin]

Well I would say a great deal of your problem, and many others like you, is that there was not enough real training for fighting and more emphasis put on health and teaching material.

Quite simply there are not enough hours at the schools to put the time into practical application and usage. And I agree but not all SD / CSC schools are like this ( most are though).

Although the art is authentic Shaolin it is looked at more as a business/ social endeavor rather than a martial arts training center.

To combat this for years I personally took it upon myself to get together with students and take each of the elements of each form and teach and practice practical application and usage.

I am no longer affiliated but I still believe in SD and GMS. I learned all the material through 6th black ( which is more than enough for a lifetime)and now teach what I have learned with fighting and practical application the way that it should be done .

Do not get me wrong the business , social, and health / fitness aspect is very important but not as much as the practical application, usage, and the integrity of The Art.

I believe that this is compromised by the business aspect and the lack of Taoist , Confucist, Buddhist, and shamanist PHILOSOPHY.

Oh by the way my shuai jiao training has helped my bagua zhang out a whole hell of a lot.

DITTO!! To all above!!;)

[kwaichang]

Truth is a hard thing to swallow , BTW what is the meaning of thick. ??? If you think I am lieing about what I told you son then you are in for a rude awakening. It is sad that those who train in Traditional / Classical MA do not put the time or effort into them to make them work. Those who train in MMA or other hybrid styles seem to have a decreased desire to put in the time to do it. It is this short cut method that leads to people wanting instant gratification which seems to be a short lived thing. KC

[Meat Shake]

In terms of feedback I mean that practical applications were pretty much never taught.
"Time to spar, no heavy contact, dont hit the head!"
When I asked about getting out of certain holds or avoiding certain situation some strange an ineffective move was always shown.
Its not so much the training philosophy of SD that I say isnt good for fighting, its the actual impractical techniques of the system.
Like I said, some of them may look really cool, but for the most part none of them have anything to do with fighting.

"PS I didnt have time or room for all of it sorry, Oh did I mention Instructoe for joint special forces team ranger , airborne Navy special ops ??"

If all that is the case... I have a hard time believing you would see anything other than aerobic kickboxing in SD.
I had a golden gloves boxer in my SD class that quit right about when I did.
And as for who you trained under... There was more than once when I went to Austin for seminars with master schaeffer... Its the same sh!t there, just put into a mystical awe that he is a "master".
My Shuai Chiao instructor trained for 25 years and had barely gotten his 3rd degree blackbelt. With the group I was training with, to get your first degree black belt took 7-10 years, and required use of virtually every technique and sparring within a free fighting environment.

[Mas Judt]

KC, I was being a bit rude - 'thick' meaning 'dense'. It was a casual slam at not noticing that the average MMA-er shows many more of the positive attributes of MA training than most 'traditionalists.'

I assure you, if you told an old-time Chinese caravan gaurd that you thought you were better off learning something that took longer and offered more 'health' benefits, they would laugh you right out of there.

CMA used to be all about fighting too. The other benefits came from training to fight.

[KungFu Student]

In terms of feedback I mean that practical applications were pretty much never taught.
"Time to spar, no heavy contact, dont hit the head!"
When I asked about getting out of certain holds or avoiding certain situation some strange an ineffective move was always shown.
Its not so much the training philosophy of SD that I say isnt good for fighting, its the actual impractical techniques of the system.
Like I said, some of them may look really cool, but for the most part none of them have anything to do with fighting.

"PS I didnt have time or room for all of it sorry, Oh did I mention Instructoe for joint special forces team ranger , airborne Navy special ops ??"

If all that is the case... I have a hard time believing you would see anything other than aerobic kickboxing in SD.
I had a golden gloves boxer in my SD class that quit right about when I did.
And as for who you trained under... There was more than once when I went to Austin for seminars with master schaeffer... Its the same sh!t there, just put into a mystical awe that he is a "master".
My Shuai Chiao instructor trained for 25 years and had barely gotten his 3rd degree blackbelt. With the group I was training with, to get your first degree black belt took 7-10 years, and required use of virtually every technique and sparring within a free fighting environment.

So how long were you in SD before you decided it was not for you?

[Judge Pen]

If I were training for a full contact fight, then my training would have to drastically change from my typical SD routine, but the techiques and applications that I've been taught could and would be used. My training methods would have to be modified. I think that's common with many who have a life outside of the martial arts (full time job and family). My training time is limited and I'm as interested in the aestics as I am in the fighting.

[MasterKiller]

If I were training for a full contact fight, then my training would have to drastically change from my typical SD routine, but the techiques and applications that I've been taught could and would be used. My training methods would have to be modified.

If you were training for a full contact fight, you would need more than just a modification to routine. You need lots of clinch work, and lots of ground work, two things lacking in most kung fu schools, including the one I initially trained in.

My kung fu punches, kicks, and throws work fine in an MMA environment...but without lots and lots of clinch work and lots and lots of ground work (wrestling and submissions, not the usual 'kick from the ground' TCMA stuff), you are destined to lose, no matter how hard you train your usual stuff.

Oh but wait, I know...I know...Most SD schools have awesome clinch work, and some even have a jiu-jitsu coach on Friday nights (not aimed at you, JP).

Guess what...even if it's true, it's still not enough.

[KungFu Student]

If I were training for a full contact fight, then my training would have to drastically change from my typical SD routine, but the techiques and applications that I've been taught could and would be used. My training methods would have to be modified. I think that's common with many who have a life outside of the martial arts (full time job and family). My training time is limited and I'm as interested in the aestics as I am in the fighting.

Well spoken. I think herein lies the rub. I personally do not think it is wise to let lower ranks to spar full speed/full contact. The chance of injury due to lack of control and technique is just too great. But the black belts do go at it hard when they spar at my school, but the control is obvious. People who do not devote their lives to study a M.A. for the most part cannot afford the chance of time away from work due to injury that full speed/contact sparring can possibly bring.

I was told from day one that forms are not to be taken literally, and used exactly as shown in a fighting situation, but more like building blocks to help you develop your own moves based on what you have been shown. Now being a lowly green belt, my experience is very limited, and I have yet to put my time in, so I am a work in progress.

It has also been my experience that each time I learned a new technique or form, I was instructed in it's practical application. Granted, there were times I said to myself "I don't think that I would do that in that situation", but I have had that issue in other M.A. that I have taken as well.

If a person wants to learn how to beat someone up, then i will admit that there are probably quicker ways to learn how to do it then SD. But I have no doubts that sticking with it and putting in quality practice, that I can defend myself if I need to. But that is not the main reason I take M.A.

[MasterKiller]

People who do not devote their lives to study a M.A. for the most part cannot afford the chance of time away from work due to injury that full speed/contact sparring can possibly bring.

I've witnessed more blown knees from badly landed tornado kicks and whatnot (2) that I've seen in MMA (0).

Both were kung fu brothers that never recovered enough to return to regular practice. I have never trained with anyone in MMA that got hurt so bad they had to quit. One guy got a bad staph infection and was out 6 weeks, but sometimes sh1t just happens that way.

Sure you can get hurt. But you can train hard and train safe at the same time.

Being hurt and being injured are not the same thing.

[KungFu Student]

Sure you can get hurt. But you can train hard and train safe at the same time.

Being hurt and being injured are not the same thing.

I cannot disagree with you there. I recently got kicked right in my left eyeball not to the side or up or down, square in the ball. It hurt, took all the fight out of me, but I sat down for a bit, and got back to it later on. The possibility of getting hurt or injured when you spar, especially full contact/speed, is the risk you have to take. But there are those who just don't want to take that chance, and I can accept that. There are also those who flat out don't like to spar, and I am ok with that too, different stokes and all. There are also those who want to train and spar hard, but can't stay safe at the same time. I have been in the situation where I have had to stop sparring with an individual because they were out of control, at least for me. It might be ok for some, but at my level of training I was not willing to keep going at their intensity level and risk getting injured. Some might view this as weak, but I know what I can do, and I know when I am in over my head.

[Judge Pen]

If you were training for a full contact fight, you would need more than just a modification to routine. You need lots of clinch work, and lots of ground work, two things lacking in most kung fu schools, including the one I initially trained in.

My kung fu punches, kicks, and throws work fine in an MMA environment...but without lots and lots of clinch work and lots and lots of ground work (wrestling and submissions, not the usual 'kick from the ground' TCMA stuff), you are destined to lose, no matter how hard you train your usual stuff.

Oh but wait, I know...I know...Most SD schools have awesome clinch work, and some even have a jiu-jitsu coach on Friday nights (not aimed at you, JP).

Guess what...even if it's true, it's still not enough.

You're right. What I would need is a lot more conditioning, more bag-work, drilling agasint resistance, and sparring at all ranges (clinch and ground especially). I couldn't agree more. But the applications in my forms contain these techniques. I would need to modify my intensity and training methods drastically if I were to square off against a well conditioned and well trained opponent in a full contact match. Look, we have 900 forms! We have plenty of application to chose from. :p

Something that always rubbed me wrong about MMA and UFC? Are there any regulations for steriods, performance enhancers or pain killers?

[kwaichang]

So anyway, I train to fight I love the forms but I can make them work or should I say the ABC's of them. 20 years ago or so I was a bouncer there were 20- 30 people going at it. Our job was to get them out of the club to the street. I was doing ok when this guy got me in a rear choke standing. As I remember it the following happened he started his choke I grabbed a leg he wrapped me with the other, i was losing it. So I thrust my self backward and slammed him on the curb his buddies picked hiom up and took him off. Let me say this about clinch work or ground. A thumb 2 inches into the eye socket or a testicle clamped between a thumb and fore finger , crunch, will break any hold. KC

[brucereiter]

Let me say this about clinch work or ground. A thumb 2 inches into the eye socket or a testicle clamped between a thumb and fore finger , crunch, will break any hold. KC

hi kc,

all respect to you but i think that might be a little naive ...

how do you get your thumb into the eye?
what if they move just enough that it does not hurt them? where do you go from there?

how do you get your hand on their nuts?
what if they are wearing big baggy thick jeans lol or even a nut cup?(i know people who do a lot of slamming in mosh pits and get into fights at shows who wear a cup and mouth guard)
what if you miss?
what if you just grap the "sack" and not the testicle?
then what good are these "moves"

i think a situation/fight would have to be pretty extreme for me to feel the need to blind a human being.

all i am getting at is it is not as easy as it sounds to poke an eye out or to grab/kick the nuts. specifically on a skilled fighter.

best,

b

[The Xia]

A good grappler will make it very difficult for you to use those techniques. I don't really get why some people see no value in grappling. Here's a fact, grappling is part of TMA, including Kung Fu!

[kwaichang]

WHAT IF? the great ultimate question the statement though effective is a rhetorical and an effective one. You can what if all day long. That is the intensity to fight with even the MMA have rules. If it is for real then make it for keeps. Dont F around. KC I like biting too the human mouth is very nasty. PS there is always something to grab.

[KungFu Student]

A thumb 2 inches into the eye socket or a testicle clamped between a thumb and fore finger , crunch, will break any hold. KC

Heh, absolutely. It always cracks me up when I am confronted by the "know every countermove" student. You know the type, the one that has the "ultimate" counter move for any situation. "If you did this, I would do this, and it would be over." I think to my self, "Ok, then I could kick you in the balls, or gouge you in the eyes or kick you in the knee." It is the simple moves that work the best. Not that I advocate doing that to a fellow student...:D

[KungFu Student]

A good grappler will make it very difficult for you to use those techniques. I don't really get why some people see no value in grappling. Here's a fact, grappling is part of TMA, including Kung Fu!

I see alot of value in grappling, I am doing some reading on San Shou Kuai Jiao and wish I could find somewhere locally that teaches it.

[BoulderDawg]

I don't know why we can't learn it all.

Let's learn how to kick and punch and also learn how to grabble.

Just from a nonviolent standpoint would not it be better to grab somebody in an armlock or leglock for a brief period until they calmed down instead of breaking their jaw?

I think grabbing someone in an armlock and saying "I know this hurts but if you calm down I will let you go" is much more impressive than smashing someone's face.

Also, from a self defense standpoint, I think learning some grabbling moves is better for a female in trouble. Using leverage against a man gives her enough advantage to get away. However trying to "slug it out" of go for the nuts or eyes might get the lady killed.

[The Xia]

KungFu Student,
Shuai Jiao is a great style. Good luck in finding a sifu.
BoulderDawg,
Grappling can be brutal as well. Throwing someone on a hard surface can do a lot of damage. It's even worse if the person doesn't know how to fall. Also, you don't have to "submit" someone, you can break and move on. That's really how you'd do it in a street situation where multiple opponents may be involved. It really depends on the situation. If you are a bouncer in a club, sparring, or competing, to name a few, it's a different story.

[KungFu Student]

Also, from a self defense standpoint, I think learning some grabbling moves is better for a female in trouble. Using leverage against a man gives her enough advantage to get away. However trying to "slug it out" of go for the nuts or eyes might get the lady killed.

In my opinion, I believe it is just the opposite. A female trying to get into grappling reach of a man would in most cases let the male utilize his strength advantage. By using you long reach weapons in a quick attack, in this case a kick to the groin or knee, or the jab to the eyes hopefully would stun them enough to allow a quick getaway. I was not advocating a slug fest in any way, man or women.

[The Xia]

Groin strikes and eye pokes don't always work.

[KungFu Student]

Groin strikes and eye pokes don't always work.

True, but there are alot of things that don't always work. :p A difference of opinion to be sure, but that is all it is. I am not saying that grappling does not have it's place in a real life confrontation. But me personally, I am going to do what ever I can to stay as far away from my assailant as possible, but if that is not an option, then I had better know how to keep them tied up as well.

[Baqualin]

If you were training for a full contact fight, you would need more than just a modification to routine. You need lots of clinch work, and lots of ground work, two things lacking in most kung fu schools, including the one I initially trained in.

Oh but wait, I know...I know...Most SD schools have awesome clinch work, and some even have a jiu-jitsu coach on Friday nights (not aimed at you, JP).

Guess what...even if it's true, it's still not enough.

MK read all my post about this subject before you pick at me. My statement is true, but I never said it was enough...never said we were a fight school....never said most....never said awesome clinch work...I was only making a point that there's more to some SD schools than people realize. I've always said, if your going to fight all out in the ring you have to train specifically for that or you will get your a$$ handed to you...I'm not stupid, I've been at this for 36 yrs. There are some people in SD training that way,not most and not me, I'm to old....but I still like to get on the ground once in a while. ;)
BQ

[kwaichang]

Hey I even like to do ground work especially if shes real good looking and built like Rachel Mcclish KC

[The Xia]

True, but there are alot of things that don't always work. :p A difference of opinion to be sure, but that is all it is. I am not saying that grappling does not have it's place in a real life confrontation. But me personally, I am going to do what ever I can to stay as far away from my assailant as possible, but if that is not an option, then I had better know how to keep them tied up as well.
That really depends on what kind of fighter you are. Some styles are short range and others long range and some are both. Some fighters prefer to keep distance and use long range techniques and others like to plow through the opponent and fight close range. Some prefer grappling, some prefer striking. Some like to do all of these things.

Hey I even like to do ground work especially if shes real good looking and built like Rachel Mcclish KC
If you are a fighter, it's not wise to dismiss groundfighting.

[kwaichang]

You slay me XIA. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

BJJ is a formidable fighting art. I've witnessed this firsthand this past month. The only thing is....tackling someone is not 100%....and it's where all the risk is involved.

I learned a lot about takedowns. Enough to know the art wasnt' for me.

But on a curious sidenote, just last Thursday my brother, who is out of shape and has no training whatsoever, and has an enormous flinch complex, was training takedowns with one of the purple belts at the school (which, from what I heard there, was pretty high rank). He was scary, mean, looking. Had all kinds of tats, and a bulldog on the back of the neck. He was ripped, had some scars, and the beginnings of cauliflower ears. I think he was a wrestler, or something.

This dude (who I won't name) was talking about the value of surprise in a takedown. He didn't announce what he was doing, and shot in for a takedown on my bro, I guess to prove his point. My brother flinched and threw a knee without thinking. It caught the guy square in the forehead....just crack! The guy curled up on the ground, and my brother was like: "Oh my god!! Are you okay!" The guy was swearing, red in th eface, and he got up about 5 minutes later, threatening my brother with basically bodily mutilation before he calmed down. (We haven't been back since.....:o ........)

So....groundwork, as we learned, is complex, technical, and takes a lot of skill. But like anything, it has its flaws and its weaknesses, and even a lucky shot can take the best of th ebest down like little *****es every once and a while.

(My brother's been bragging about it ever since......:D .....)

It's interesting, but definately not Invincible. But I know it's not particularly catching to some people. Plus, I didn't like the people we trained with. Some of 'em were,......I don't know.....a little....what's the word?

Assholish?:D

[Judge Pen]

I agree that a good grappler will make it very difficult to apply the classic "non-grappling" ground defenses of pressure points, eye-pokes and biting. It's like anything else, the theory and the concept are vastly differnt in application. These techniques can work, however, and should be considered in your aresenal if your in a scrape as should the full array of grappling techniques. BJJ guys can poke eyes and bite you too--I think a lot of people think that these techniques will catch a grappler unaware, which is silly. If its there and justified you do it to survive, but you won't know your opportunities until you are comfortable in the basics of ground-fighting. I see value in learning everything.

[Judge Pen]

So....groundwork, as we learned, is complex, technical, and takes a lot of skill. But like anything, it has its flaws and its weaknesses, and even a lucky shot can take the best of th ebest down like little *****es every once and a while.


Absolutely! Everyone should know enough to at least protect yourself if you get taken down and how to get back on your feet witout getting hurt. If you can learn that without the eye-pokes, biting, pressue-points, etc., then great--in a "real" encounter you will have that much more to employ.

[The Xia]

I agree that a good grappler will make it very difficult to apply the classic "non-grappling" ground defenses of pressure points, eye-pokes and biting. It's like anything else, the theory and the concept are vastly differnt in application. These techniques can work, however, and should be considered in your aresenal if your in a scrape as should the full array of grappling techniques. BJJ guys can poke eyes and bite you too--I think a lot of people think that these techniques will catch a grappler unaware, which is silly. If its there and justified you do it to survive, but you won't know your opportunities until you are comfortable in the bbasics of ground-fighting. I see value in learning everything.
I couldn't put it better myself.
Wookie,
Interesting story. I think it ties into what JP just said. Sure, sprawling is an effective counter to the shoot but knees, downward elbows, and other techniques can also work. It really has to do with the fighters involved.

[MasterKiller]

I learned a lot about takedowns. Enough to know the art wasnt' for me. Takedowns are easy. I grab you and we fall down. BJJ is about positional awareness and dominance on the ground after the takedown.

If you left a BJJ class and think it was only about takedowns, then you didn't learn d1ck.

The technique you don't study is the one that will beat you.

[Baqualin]

I couldn't put it better myself.
Wookie,
Interesting story. I think it ties into what JP just said. Sure, sprawling is an effective counter to the shoot but knees, downward elbows, and other techniques can also work. It really has to do with the fighters involved.

Hey Xia
You impress me more everyday. At our school some of us are working on how to avoid a total take down and if not sucessful, what to do on the way down to get in your pressure point strikes or breaks or whatever (helps your Baqua) to keep from getting killed once on the ground.
I've also seen first hand what JP described, regarding the ability of a really good grappler to avoid pressure point strikes, biting, eyepokes or anything else while humiliating upper level Blk belts. It's kinda funny, makes them stand back and scratch their head.:eek:
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

Found some interesting clips while d1cking around this afternoon after a little nap after work this morning. The Hakka forms have a lot of the same "essence" as our forms....just ours have more of a stereotypically northern footwork pattern, I think. Some of 'em aren't Hakka. Just related......thought SD guys might enjoy 'em. Haters 'll just laugh.....:rolleyes:

Reminds me, shorlty, of our 3 brown belt bird forms....you'll see why....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE1SEgpcRSs&mode=related&search=



Okay, some of the movements are a little different, but it has the same feel as our San He Chien, especially towards the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cG_DKeZII&mode=related&search=

I've seen every one of these moves so far....before black belt.:D :cool: I'm thinking between White Monkey Steals the Peach, our short forms...china hands....just, mismatched/rehashed....same cadence, rhythm, essence, though....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfhExcU_ltc&NR

36 Seconds in...again that trademark bird (All 3 Shaolin birds) retreat into a broken leg stance....which I haven't really seen much in kung-fu except in these clips.....(addend: it appears in some Bak Mei forms in a less "flashy" fashion...only they don't seem to put the broken leg's heel flat to the floor [also in 1st/3rd crane]).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONezKWEvrBw&mode=related&search=

1:50 in.....a Chinese guy using Sai? Say it ain't so!!! :D Different form, some shared movements with SD's sai's, but many differences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnA32dap4Lw&mode=related&search=

******!!! I posted the wrong link.....just another one of that bird/broken leg retreat.....think he's doing a mantis form...not really sure......Hakka forms kind of blend together after a while.....or maybe I just don't have the eye for it.

Well, I gotta go to class now....enough web fu this week.

[Baqualin]

Found some interesting clips while d1cking around this afternoon after a little nap after work this morning. The Hakka forms have a lot of the same "essence" as our forms....just ours have more of a stereotypically northern footwork pattern, I think. Some of 'em aren't Hakka. Just related......thought SD guys might enjoy 'em. Haters 'll just laugh.....:rolleyes:

Reminds me, shorlty, of our 3 brown belt bird forms....you'll see why....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE1SEgpcRSs&mode=related&search=



Okay, some of the movements are a little different, but it has the same feel as our San He Chien, especially towards the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cG_DKeZII&mode=related&search=

I've seen every one of these moves so far....before black belt.:D :cool: I'm thinking between White Monkey Steals the Peach, our short forms...china hands....just, mismatched/rehashed....same cadence, rhythm, essence, though....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfhExcU_ltc&NR

36 Seconds in...again that trademark bird (All 3 Shaolin birds) retreat into a broken leg stance....which I haven't really seen much in kung-fu except in these clips.....(addend: it appears in some Bak Mei forms in a less "flashy" fashion...only they don't seem to put the broken leg's heel flat to the floor [also in 1st/3rd crane]).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONezKWEvrBw&mode=related&search=

1:50 in.....a Chinese guy using Sai? Say it ain't so!!! :D Different form, some shared movements with SD's sai's, but many differences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnA32dap4Lw&mode=related&search=

******!!! I posted the wrong link.....just another one of that bird/broken leg retreat.....think he's doing a mantis form...not really sure......Hakka forms kind of blend together after a while.....or maybe I just don't have the eye for it.

Well, I gotta go to class now....enough web fu this week.

Welcome back!!!;)
BQ

[kwaichang]

So it seems those clips posted look more like Yoshukai Karate not kung fu so does that mean its real chinese Kung fu??? KC

[tattooedmonk]

So it seems those clips posted look more like Yoshukai Karate not kung fu so does that mean its real chinese Kung fu??? KC This is the thing that most people forget ........a great deal of kung fu is based on Taoist principles one of them being yin /yang.

Why people think that kung fu is only soft is beyond me .

It is something that is perpetuated and practiced and is out right wrong ...and one of the big reasons why kung fu guys get their @$$es handed to them .

As you can see this kung fu style is more hard than soft ( greater yang). And anyone who does SD can tell you we have the best of both worlds.:D

[kwaichang]

It was a joke the CMA clearly looks Karate ish. Thus my point as to why SD is real CMA despite what others say as to the way it looks KC

[The Xia]

Baqualin,
Glad my posts do something! :D
The point about grappling is important though. It's best to have a complete arsenal. In truth, TMA does have grappling. Throws and locks are in the forms but they need to be drilled for you to be able to apply them. Chin na can work if it's properly drilled. Techniques like the fu jow are great as well. Hell, it's a staple of many styles. The key is to drill it well and condition the hand to be able to deliver it. Here's another little nugget, the gripping strength you acquire from properly training your fu jow translates well into grappling. And there is nothing wrong with training in grappling arts like Judo, Shuai Jiao, BJJ, etc. Cross training is a great thing.
Shaolin Wookie,
You may be surprised to see sai in CMA, but it is a Chinese weapon as well. They're very Buddhist actually.
On the topic of Karate and Kung Fu, there are many similarities between styles from Southern China and Karate. Historically, there is a connection. There is a lot of interesting reading out there on that.

[Baqualin]

Baqualin,
Glad my posts do something! :D
The point about grappling is important though. It's best to have a complete arsenal. In truth, TMA does have grappling. Throws and locks are in the forms but they need to be drilled for you to be able to apply them. Chin na can work if it's properly drilled. Techniques like the fu jow are great as well. Hell, it's a staple of many styles. The key is to drill it well and condition the hand to be able to deliver it. Here's another little nugget, the gripping strength you acquire from properly training your fu jow translates well into grappling. And there is nothing wrong with training in grappling arts like Judo, Shuai Jiao, BJJ, etc. Cross training is a great thing.
Shaolin Wookie,
You may be surprised to see sai in CMA, but it is a Chinese weapon as well. They're very Buddhist actually.
On the topic of Karate and Kung Fu, there are many similarities between styles from Southern China and Karate. Historically, there is a connection. There is a lot of interesting reading out there on that.

You have said more in this one post than most people have all week

1) Most people don't realize what forms are for and what's contained in them...they need to look deeper.
2) Most people don't understand the proper training needed to use these tecniques.
3)Cross training is important in all styles...it's nice to have a base style like I have in SD, but one should compliment that with other styles like BJJ which has a totally different emphasis ...besides When I look at other styles sometimes It will open my eyes to an app. contained in our forms that I never noticed before. I believe it helped me to start my MA training with JUDO before moving on to SD....I wasn't surprised by ground fighters like most....I know what they can do!!!
4) The Sai......the reason Wookie brought this up is because we always catch sh!t for our sai forms not being CMA:eek:

Keep up the good post!!

[Royal Dragon]

So it seems those clips posted look more like Yoshukai Karate not kung fu so does that mean its real chinese Kung fu??? KC

Reply]
Those clips are showing Chinese Hakka styles. Most of it is Five Ancestor's Fist, but some appears to be some version of Southern Tai Tzu Quan and even White Crane as well. The reason it looks Karateish is because these styles are the Chinese roots of Okinawian Karate.

[tattooedmonk]

So it seems those clips posted look more like Yoshukai Karate not kung fu so does that mean its real chinese Kung fu??? KC

Reply]
Those clips are showing Chinese Hakka styles. Most of it is Five Ancestor's Fist, but some appears to be some version of Southern Tai Tzu Quan and even White Crane as well. The reason it looks Karateish is because these styles are the Chinese roots of Okinawian Karate. no $H!T???LMAO I think we all know this by now , and kc I knew you were joking!;)

[Baqualin]

no $H!T???LMAO I think we all know this by now , and kc I knew you were joking!;)

LMAO!!! TTM you gotta love the direction this is headed:D
BQ

[kwaichang]

We can see the direction all of these people who have tried to discredit SD due to the {karate type moves} yet those posted are karate like as well so maybe that is not real CMA either. Is that the direction you mean. KC:p

[tattooedmonk]

LMAO!!! TTM you gotta love the direction this is headed:D
BQ oh you know it.:D Hey a little side note......... I am in communications with the senior student of Lawrence Day . Interesting stuff he has to say. Do you know him or a man named Don Madden??He seems to know a little about Master Sin and Master Hiang and when they came to america . Most of it can be found on the net so ...you know...anyway just curious. you can pm me if you do not want to put it out here.

[Crushing Fist]

In regards to the Bird "retreat to broken leg"

Drop by Norcross on a Wednesday (8pm Brown Belt) and I'll show you my take on an application for that move. It's one of my favorites.

HINT: I don't do it as a retreat :)


I'm big on apps and I've read that you like to work on them, so consider me at your service.




On the topic of Yoshukai Karate, that was the first martial art I did when I was a kid. When I started SD the first thing I noticed was the similarity The Lo Han Short Forms had to it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Takedowns are easy. I grab you and we fall down. BJJ is about positional awareness and dominance on the ground after the takedown.

If you left a BJJ class and think it was only about takedowns, then you didn't learn d1ck.

The technique you don't study is the one that will beat you.

It was a really highly touted school run by a Gracie top student. Most of the class was spent in the guard/mount....rolling I guess, cuz that's what they called it.

But in order to get to the ground with advantageous positioning, you had to know how to take someone down safely. You don't just charge in. If you hit the ground in a disadvantageous position....game over.

[Shaolin Wookie]

HINT: I don't do it as a retreat :) .

Neither do I. I've yet to get the fullbody mechanics into any application. But as for the fold up and unwinding of the hands.....it's an excellent way to clear the line. But it's in plenty of our forms....tiger comes to mind....china hands...

If you're going to be in Marietta for the leopard....maybe you could show me then. Don't know if I'll be in Norcross before the 9th. Then again, who knows? Might just up and come out (I'm trying to get some new perspectives anyways, and I love those 3 birds):cool: But the SPM school I'm checking into will have me booked on Wednesdays.

The purpose of the clips wasn't really to start up some SD/CMA crap. I knew it would do that a little. I just thought SD guys might be interested in seeing their movements in other Southern CMA's. Laugh, laugh: and after seeing some Hakka stuff, and some SPM, I found it laughable to call SD "mechanical".

Nothing wrong with being more "mechanical". SPM's one-inch power is really quite cool, and well, powerful. From an outside view, the forms look kind of ugly....in a purely aesthetic sense. I think so, anyways. They're about as far from Wushu/stereotypical shaolin as anything I've seen. No spinning kicks, outside inside smashes, or anything like that. I think the fanciest movement I saw in their staff work was a la-na-cha.....:D They even appear harder than most karate. But their understanding of economical fighting---that's the part where the beauty is...kind of like Wing Chun. Not a lot of wasted action. Simple footwork, small motions, quick results........but with some really cool mantis influence. Centerline theory....I've always found it intriguing. Hakka has a unique insight.

P.S. in the link to the slideshow (Tai Tzu Ancestral Fist)......dude wears a gi....hahahhaha......

[tattooedmonk]

and another thing... I found a web site that has these, what appears to be self proclaimed " Grandmasters" ,who are ex SD BBs who have created their own system with a bunch of high level karate guys. do any of you easterners:D know anything about this or them???

[BM2]

The bjj school that I roll with is taught by a former #2 in the state H.S. wrestler. Also teaching is a former Div I NCAA wrestler and Brown belt in Judo who also has had 10 fights in the cage\ring. The take downs used are wrestling and judo. Also there are about 10 guys who fight in the cage/ring. They practice take downs from strikes/kicks as well.
So what you will about them, ego is not there. I thought it was from all the belts having to roll with each other e.g. purple,blue,green and white belts. No one sits on their rank wanting to be treated as a Prima Donna . They are trying to get each other better. I think it is most likely the best school in the state.
I like SD too. I like it better. With everything, it is the person in it that is teaching which makes the difference.

[kwaichang]

Hey CF who was your Yoshukai Teacher ? KC

[Crushing Fist]

Neither do I. I've yet to get the fullbody mechanics into any application. But as for the fold up and unwinding of the hands.....it's an excellent way to clear the line. But it's in plenty of our forms....tiger comes to mind....china hands...

I use similar applications for that move in all its incarnations. The bird version is my favorite of them because of the body mechanics involved in it. In general I like the tendency of the Bird's use of gravity and/or momentum as a force multiplier, it's just so... well... birdlike.



If you're going to be in Marietta for the leopard....maybe you could show me then. Don't know if I'll be in Norcross before the 9th. Then again, who knows? Might just up and come out (I'm trying to get some new perspectives anyways, and I love those 3 birds):cool: But the SPM school I'm checking into will have me booked on Wednesdays.

I should be there. I also predict quite a crowd.

Wednesdays in Norcross I try to make as much focused on applications for the moves as time permits. You're welcome there anytime.




No spinning kicks, outside inside smashes, or anything like that. They even appear harder than most karate. But their understanding of economical fighting---that's the part where the beauty is...kind of like Wing Chun. Not a lot of wasted action. Simple footwork, small motions, quick results........ Centerline theory....I've always found it intriguing.

If you like those type of things, then I think you may enjoy Hsing I.





KC:

My Sensei was Jim Reneau.

[MasterKiller]

In regards to the Bird "retreat to broken leg"

Drop by Norcross on a Wednesday (8pm Brown Belt) and I'll show you my take on an application for that move. It's one of my favorites.

HINT: I don't do it as a retreat :)

I do that move as a throw, FWIW.

[Crushing Fist]

I do that move as a throw, FWIW.

Bingo, we have a winner :D

We probably do the throw in a very similar way, but I suppose there could be more than one type of throw from that motion.

For me it's an arm/shoulder control leading into a spiffy spinning throw. Works like a charm once you get it set up and moves exactly like the form.

I tend to look more for controls and throws than anything else, it's just my preference.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Sounds like it's worth a trip to Norcross very soon.;)

[BM2]

BJJ is a formidable fighting art. I've witnessed this firsthand this past month. The only thing is....tackling someone is not 100&#37;....and it's where all the risk is involved.

I learned a lot about takedowns. Enough to know the art wasnt' for me.

But on a curious sidenote, just last Thursday my brother, who is out of shape and has no training whatsoever, and has an enormous flinch complex, was training takedowns with one of the purple belts at the school (which, from what I heard there, was pretty high rank). He was scary, mean, looking. Had all kinds of tats, and a bulldog on the back of the neck. He was ripped, had some scars, and the beginnings of cauliflower ears. I think he was a wrestler, or something.

This dude (who I won't name) was talking about the value of surprise in a takedown. He didn't announce what he was doing, and shot in for a takedown on my bro, I guess to prove his point. My brother flinched and threw a knee without thinking. It caught the guy square in the forehead....just crack! The guy curled up on the ground, and my brother was like: "Oh my god!! Are you okay!" The guy was swearing, red in th eface, and he got up about 5 minutes later, threatening my brother with basically bodily mutilation before he calmed down. (We haven't been back since.....:o ........)

So....groundwork, as we learned, is complex, technical, and takes a lot of skill. But like anything, it has its flaws and its weaknesses, and even a lucky shot can take the best of th ebest down like little *****es every once and a while.

(My brother's been bragging about it ever since......:D .....)

It's interesting, but definately not Invincible. But I know it's not particularly catching to some people. Plus, I didn't like the people we trained with. Some of 'em were,......I don't know.....a little....what's the word?

Assholish?:D

Really, I don't know how to respond to this post:rolleyes: Here is a link to a guy in the bjj club in his first fight. He is also a white belt. The others are one white belt, one green and a blue belt. They are all fighting for the 1st time.
A must see vid is the Trell Parker vs John Steele. Trell was a H.S. wrestler and had about 4 months of bjj before this fight. Steele was 4-1 and a MT fighter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnW8myRCMew

[BM2]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJKwJpFUENI

I tried to add this to my last post. Chewy is a really good guy and an excellent martial artist. Never talks trash about anyone or their style. In other words, he wouldn't be posting on here;)

[John Many Jars]

When you mentioned the name Chewy, I thought you were referring to Shaolin Wookie. heh, heh

[Baqualin]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJKwJpFUENI

I tried to add this to my last post. Chewy is a really good guy and an excellent martial artist. Never talks trash about anyone or their style. In other words, he wouldn't be posting on here;)

Thanks for the ring girl shot..she's hot.
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

Just wanted to get the thoughts of others from the Chinese Shao-lin Centers:

We just recently got through the holidays and this makes the second december I've been in the program. Although I've never said anything about it I've always wondered if anyone else thought it was just a little strange that the school closes for the last half of the month. A lot of us have time off then and are not traveling and would welcome the extra time to work out. Also even though they close for a half month they still charge you for the full month.

Anyway, just in general, I would be willing to pay more to have more of a selection of days and times for classes and just more time to practice.

[brucereiter]

Just wanted to get the thoughts of others from the Chinese Shao-lin Centers:

We just recently got through the holidays and this makes the second december I've been in the program. Although I've never said anything about it I've always wondered if anyone else thought it was just a little strange that the school closes for the last half of the month. A lot of us have time off then and are not traveling and would welcome the extra time to work out. Also even though they close for a half month they still charge you for the full month.

Anyway, just in general, I would be willing to pay more to have more of a selection of days and times for classes and just more time to practice.

in the atlanta csc's we have maybe the 2 days before and after xmas off and new years day off, other than that students can train 5-7 days per week year round ... maybe one day off at thanksgiving and july 4th off ...

http://www.shaolincenter.com/schedule_norcross.html

[BoulderDawg]

You guys are really lucky.

Here's our schedule:

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=11

[BM2]

Thanks for the ring girl shot..she's hot.
BQ

Oh man! They BOTH were ;)
Anyway, I bet both you and GT would sign up for classes here:D
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=131046472

[Baqualin]

Oh man! They BOTH were ;)
Anyway, I bet both you and GT would sign up for classes here:D
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=131046472

I'm moving to Florida:D

[Golden Tiger]

Oh man! They BOTH were ;)
Anyway, I bet both you and GT would sign up for classes here:D
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=131046472


After seeing the triangle choke technique, I am a convert to MMA (only if they will be my training partners that is:p )

[Shaolin Wookie]

Really, I don't know how to respond to this post:rolleyes: Here is a link to a guy in the bjj club in his first fight. He is also a white belt. The others are one white belt, one green and a blue belt. They are all fighting for the 1st time.
A must see vid is the Trell Parker vs John Steele. Trell was a H.S. wrestler and had about 4 months of bjj before this fight. Steele was 4-1 and a MT fighter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnW8myRCMew

You're not supposed to respond to it, not really. I wasn't trashing the style. I just figured it wasn't for me (not as much fun as stand-up). And I'm not a professional or amateur fighter. I wasn't saying BJJ sucks or something.........I think it's pretty effective...or my bro and I never would have went to that school. I just don't really enjoy it a150.00 a month kind of level of enjoyment, when I can cross train in things I really enjoy for less money and get twice to 3X the kwoon time. Why the hell do BJJ schools cost so much, anyways?:confused:

All it is is a story. My "flinchy" brother KO'd a purple belt.:cool: Truth to tell, I hate sparring spazzes, too. I've taken nasty shots from flinchy guys in kung fu. It was mostly a humorous story, as I saw it (hence, the we let our membership run out without going back...besides, it was one of those testosterone schools, BJJ meets Cobra Kai....sorry SDiscool....just didn't gel with those guys....):D . I don't know why they got so amped up with my bro. It's a self-defense class, right? And a dude attacked him. He flinched/reacted....deed done. Lesson learned. They just made it really uncomfortable for him, and I didn't like the attitudes that popped up in the aftermath. The instructor had an attitude thereafter and made belittling comments about my brother....which didn't impress me. It's not a reflection of BJJ worldwide....just that school....and that dude.... hence, I haven't named the school or hte guy for that reason.

Truth to tell, though, he shouldn't have done what he did. Whenever I see a flincher come in, I'm like, dude, I gotta watch myself. Flinches move faster than calculated punches, 'bows and knees. Spazzes are the worst dudes to spar.

Cool vids. Whenever someone kicks high right off the bat in an MMA fight, you know something bad's about to happen. I always figure kicks are like magnums with one bullet in the chamber. You have to wait for the perfect shot (usually when a punch lands) and then you shoot with precision, for the sake of the kill. That takedown (single leg) was one of the best ones I learned....only, I didn't really learn it that well. Can't really learn that much in a month's time. As for the whole white belt thing.......who cares about ranks?

**** me if they weren't charging an arm and a leg for BJJ gi's......:o ...glad I didn't have to buy one......:D

[brucereiter]

besides, it was one of those testosterone schools, BJJ meets Cobra Kai....sorry SDiscool....just didn't gel with those guys....):D . I don't know why they got so amped up with my bro. It's a self-defense class, right? And a dude attacked him. He flinched/reacted....deed done. Lesson learned. They just made it really uncomfortable for him, and I didn't like the attitudes that popped up in the aftermath. The instructor had an attitude thereafter and made belittling comments about my brother....which didn't impress me.

too bad :-( i dont know which teacher you are talking about but that organization puts out good fighters.
sometimes when you are teaching something you dont have your "guard" up so it can happen that a student spazzes out and pops you ... as a teacher i think ya just have to smile, tell the kid to chill when he is being shown something and then forget about it.

you gotta stop by before i leave town at the end of march ...

[Meat Shake]

"In truth, TMA does have grappling. Throws and locks are in the forms but they need to be drilled"

Shuai Chiao is a TMA. I didnt learn forms though... I got thrown, thrown again, thrown some more, then got to learn how to throw.
Not through forms, but through throwing and being thrown.

Fighting is kinda the same, as are locks. The form is simply a vehicle to remember them by. To learn them you must use them consistently in a free flowing environment.

[Baqualin]

"In truth, TMA does have grappling. Throws and locks are in the forms but they need to be drilled"

Shuai Chiao is a TMA. I didnt learn forms though... I got thrown, thrown again, thrown some more, then got to learn how to throw.
Not through forms, but through throwing and being thrown.

Fighting is kinda the same, as are locks. The form is simply a vehicle to remember them by. To learn them you must use them consistently in a free flowing environment.

I don't think anyone on here will argue with that....very true:)
BQ

[Judge Pen]

"In truth, TMA does have grappling. Throws and locks are in the forms but they need to be drilled"

Shuai Chiao is a TMA. I didnt learn forms though... I got thrown, thrown again, thrown some more, then got to learn how to throw.
Not through forms, but through throwing and being thrown.

Fighting is kinda the same, as are locks. The form is simply a vehicle to remember them by. To learn them you must use them consistently in a free flowing environment.

Knocked that one out of the park. And I'll agree that the problem in most TCMA training is the inconsistency in training the technique in a free flowing environment. I'm curious, MS, how many regular students in your Shuai Chiao class?

[Meat Shake]

Only me and gene, and kirk the instructor for the most part...
The last couple of months I was there we had a collegiate wrestler, and plenty of people came and went.... No one really liked getting thrown I guess.
I also worked quite a bit with various random people who trained around town and in austin.
I also liked to try locks on my drunken tough guy friends to see who tried to escape how, and if they did, Id figure out how and what needed to be modified. Also worked quite a bit with my "untrained" friends to see what entries to locks would work. Its a pretty eye opening experience to see how someone who is unconditioned to being locked and grabbed responds to it.

[The Xia]

Meat Shake,
I didn't claim that anyone will get grappling ability just from practicing forms. That's why I mentioned drilling. :)
That said, I agree with everything you posted except one thing. Forms are what you said but they are other things too. They organize the techniques of a style. This is true but there are other functions. One of them is to condition to the person to moving in that style.

[Judge Pen]

Only me and gene, and kirk the instructor for the most part...
The last couple of months I was there we had a collegiate wrestler, and plenty of people came and went.... No one really liked getting thrown I guess.
I also worked quite a bit with various random people who trained around town and in austin.
I also liked to try locks on my drunken tough guy friends to see who tried to escape how, and if they did, Id figure out how and what needed to be modified. Also worked quite a bit with my "untrained" friends to see what entries to locks would work. Its a pretty eye opening experience to see how someone who is unconditioned to being locked and grabbed responds to it.


I would have guessed that you had a small class because of the intensity of it. That's where a lot of TMA classes run into trouble. If they want to have a school and make a living teaching then the consistency of drilling is often dispensed with as its not as accomodating to the general public. Yes, I'm saying that a lot of teachers compromise teaching the art the way it should be taught in exchange for more students and financial success. Its not to say those elements aren't present in the training, but it doesn't have the emphasis, accross the board. There are exceptions, of course, and it really is a school to school comparison (not a style to style comparison). And many of the teacher try to incorporate these elements in privates or special classes with a select number of students who are interested in that type of drilling.

Ok, off of my soap-box. Sounds like a good class MS.

[ricardocameron]

In regards to the Bird "retreat to broken leg"

Drop by Norcross on a Wednesday (8pm Brown Belt) and I'll show you my take on an application for that move. It's one of my favorites.



Could you describe the "broken-leg stance" in the Brown Belt Bird Forms? Is it like going down on one knee or something?

[kwaichang]

Think of a Jade Ring stance turned to the side with the knee closer to the ground/ floor. in this case the upper body is turned partially toward the leg that is bent toward the floor. Left foot forward right leg bent as if it is "broken". KC

[ricardocameron]

Think of a Jade Ring stance turned to the side with the knee closer to the ground/ floor. in this case the upper body is turned partially toward the leg that is bent toward the floor. Left foot forward right leg bent as if it is "broken". KC

Cool,thanks,KC. I looked at the clips posted earlier. That artist had his knee on the ground there, with heel raised.

[Meat Shake]

"If they want to have a school and make a living teaching"

This is where I really lucked out.
I trained in a backyard with a man who was at a master level who did it because it was his love.
I trained for free for the first MANY months...

[Shaolin Wookie]

Anyone know why some "broken legs" have a heel raised, and some keep 'em flat on the ground?

[BoulderDawg]

My understanding is (from the Masters) that the correct stance is foot flat. However some people simply cannot do it so heel raised is allowed.

I can do it but the stance mystifies me. I equate it to a very deep and forward bow stance with a bent knee. The problem is that the stance puts a lot of pressure on my knee and doesn't feel natural at all.

[ricardocameron]

My understanding is (from the Masters) that the correct stance is foot flat. However some people simply cannot do it so heel raised is allowed.

I can do it but the stance mystifies me. I equate it to a very deep and forward bow stance with a bent knee. The problem is that the stance puts a lot of pressure on my knee and doesn't feel natural at all.
Right...i've tried it too, and...well, why not just go down on one knee? but we gotta do it how were taught.. ;D

[Shaolin Wookie]

That's kind of strange, I've never found it uncomfortable, and I'm pretty sure I've been doing it right....

[ricardocameron]

That's kind of strange, I've never found it uncomfortable, and I'm pretty sure I've been doing it right....
no, not uncomfortable, but I meant why do you think it was developed or is used as opposed to just kneeling?

[BoulderDawg]

Maybe I'm different but if I put my knee on the ground (lightly touching or even slightly off the ground) and twist the inside of my foot to lay flat it puts pressure on my knee. There are plenty of people at my school who simply can't do it.

I also wonder about it in an application. It appears to me that you're in a very vunerable position. In a position that could lead to serious knee injury.

[Shaolin Wookie]

One guy at my school showed it (he got cut off before he finished teaching it) as a throw when you've got someone grabbing you from the front.....

I've want to get to Norcross on a Wed. to get an app for it from......hell, I forget who it was on here.......