Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm thinking shoulder control like in the first couple of the 9 Street Fighting Techniques we get, then hopping forward (rather than back), rotating/folding into the broken leg, and throwing the guy over your shoulder. I guess you could do it holding his outstretched arm, as well........but I'm not sure. I'm just guessing 'till I get the real app..... That would explain the flat heel....so if he landed on it, it wouldn't wrench it or break it.....

[ricardocameron]

I'm thinking shoulder control like in the first couple of the 9 Street Fighting Techniques we get, then hopping forward (rather than back), rotating/folding into the broken leg, and throwing the guy over your shoulder. I guess you could do it holding his outstretched arm, as well........but I'm not sure. I'm just guessing 'till I get the real app..... That would explain the flat heel....so if he landed on it, it wouldn't wrench it or break it.....

Tha't always been a contentious point for me in my SD training...Not enough applications taught for the form moves...but it IS cool when you figure some out yourself!

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's just going to come down to recognition of hte motions we do every day, and the ones we're not spoonfed apps for.......

Someone wiser than me told me that focusing on one application for the motion often winds up simplifying it in your mind, when myriad things could be done with it.

The folding up and unwinding of the hands has become my primary method of defense, and I'm getting pretty good at it. If you advance the back foot during the ward off/block/push you get out of the motion (clearing the opponent's punch to the outside, controlling the elbow like an ippon), you can clear the line and get in close enough to do some great punishment. If you do it with a more progressive step, but advance at an ouside angle (again, like an ippon), you can circle back around inside with another step and then land that elbow the bird forms stress, as well as the eye strike........and it gives you a great angle for that elbow to the face or neck....

I'm dealing with that "many forms, less apps" issue in my own way....by visiting the other SD schools in the area (I'm fortunate to have that option).....but we ought to trade 'em here.....might as well do something other than just shoot the **** and crack jokes......

Plus, I nab a dude or two in my rank or below before or after class, and I'm like..."Hey, wanna work on some applications?" Generally, it's just me beating them up....:D ....and then I'll ask someone better later on, to see if I've gotten the gist of it.....

Just use your imagination, and you'll be surprised how often you're right.

Even as we speak, I see my stepping sequence equally applicable for this throw.........oooh....someone's gonna get thrown next week....I wonder who?

[ricardocameron]

I WISH I had the option of other schools. Only one in the Tampa area..he knows his stuff, from Texas under Master Shaefer, but I just can't afford to go right now, and kinda far away...school, family, life...., so i work on what I can from notes and such. Try learning a form from just notes...it's hard!! but I picked up night battle broadsword that way,and kwan dao. Even if I do it "wrong", it's still fun, and I'm not as bored!!

[kwaichang]

Because we cant go back in time and we dont know what changes occured over time there is no "right" when it comes to applications. I have said before the application is dependent upon the attack , the body style of the person utilizing the technique as well as the size and strength of the participant as well as the attacker. Those who look for applications from others are at times taken down the wrong path. Oh sure it will give you a concept to work from, but that does not lead to making the art your own . To do that you must know your own strengths and weaknesses. The same technigue can be used with many attacks and defenses. KC
PS do not look to others for your own knowledge of applications. that leads to doing instead of being.

[Meat Shake]

Because we cant go back in time and we dont know what changes occured over time there is no "right" when it comes to applications. I have said before the application is dependent upon the attack , the body style of the person utilizing the technique as well as the size and strength of the participant as well as the attacker. Those who look for applications from others are at times taken down the wrong path. Oh sure it will give you a concept to work from, but that does not lead to making the art your own . To do that you must know your own strengths and weaknesses. The same technigue can be used with many attacks and defenses. KC
PS do not look to others for your own knowledge of applications. that leads to doing instead of being.

"do not look to others for your own knowledge of applications. that leads to doing instead of being."

Wow...
Thats exactly the kind of crap I was commenting on earlier. Doing instead of being?
What the hell is that supposed to mean? Do you really expect someone to learn something valuable from watching a form and guessing what everything was supposed to be used for? Especially a novice at martial arts, much less a novice at fighting? This is why SD is considered a joke.
There is a "right" when it comes to applications, there are specific ways of doing things that must be followed to make your techniques successful and safe for you.
Everything I learned in shuai chiao was specific within inches, and if it wasnt done exactly right, it was drilled until it was perfect. Thats why I can toss somebody when I **** well please, because it was specific and I learned exactly how I needed to move, how to step, how to grab and pull. Humans learn from humans, so if you dont look for applications from others, who do you look for them from? This is exactly what leads to arrogant first degree black belts with a bunch of "cool moves" that wouldnt work on a drunken teen girl. "Making the art your own" is done by correcting the learned application to fit your specific needs and situational needs, but not by watching a blank movement and guessing what it was supposed to mean.
Practicing in the way you have just explained is a perfect way to lead to injuries on the behalf of both the person being practiced on and the poor sap that tries to use some wierd ass tiger jump out of a form in a real confrontation.

[kwaichang]

MA have dual purpose. Are you telling me that the technique you were shown on day 1 is done the same way since then ? NO, It changes as does the application of the technique. That is making the art your own adapting to change so I guess you are so perfect that you always perform the technique by the bookand make it work. I guess you are like jim carry " no attackl like this I said". BTW application comes from a knowledge of the body Muscle origin and insertion, joints , nerves and Accupuncture meridians if you dont know that then you only scrach the surface, as far as application is concerned. You are the joke with no understanding of what doing and being means. KC

[The Xia]

that leads to doing instead of being.
How can you be a technique?
One can use, do, or perform a jab. One can also jab. But how the hell can someone be a jab? :confused:

[kwaichang]

If you think you are doing and by being shown what the technique might be for you are doing. Being is understanding through self knowledge and knowledge of the human body and psychi. and responding as neded .. Techniques can have more than one use the larger understanding of a technique the more apt you are to be able to use it effectively. That is the moment of being. Then you dont think you do. Thus being the technique KC:)

[The Xia]

Sure I can use the technique in many ways. I can use it to open a combo. I can use it to keep my distance. These are all different uses of the same technique. I can drill it to the point where it is ingrained in me and I'll use it at appropriate points in combat. No matter how well I can use a jab, I'm still not being a jab. I can be said to use, do, or perform it. I can be said to jab. I can be said to be a great jabber. But I am not a jab. I don't see any logic in what you are saying.

[kwaichang]

It is philosophy not logic. KC

[kwaichang]

At the moment that you are not thinking but perform the technique to its highest level you will then be the technique both body spirit and mind , or should I say NO MIND. KC

[The Xia]

Logic is the backbone of philosophy.

[kwaichang]

BTW a jab is also a block/parry as well. and a grab preceding a take down and an arm break. See what I mean, and I did not learn this by asking what is this technique for Sifu So and SO. KC

[kwaichang]

Once you understand then logic is done away with , and philosophy rules, as logic is thought and binds the mind so it is no longer free to be without restriction. KC:)

[The Xia]

At the moment that you are not thinking but perform the technique to its highest level you will then be the technique both body spirit and mind , or should I say NO MIND. KC
If you are performing the technique instinctually you are still executing, doing, or as I said performing it. You aren't being it. Saying that a high level martial artist is being a technique is like saying a highly skilled speaker is being a word. There’s no logic in that.

[BoulderDawg]

Just one more comment about forms and then I'm done:

If I go up to five black belts (second degree or higher) and ask them to show me Fei Hu Ch'u Tung. I will see five different versions of that form. They will vary slightly but they will vary.

I've always wondered why we can't have videos of the forms. That way the masters can teach us and, when we go home to practice, we can check our moves against the correct ones on the video.

I've often thought of asking a high level black belt if I could tape them doing forms just for personal use but I've also felt that to even ask might lead to some trouble for all involved.

[kwaichang]

You are right there is no Logic in that, as logic will not alllow you to see, it only allows you to look. KC Let me say it this way, Thetechnique happens through you there is no conscious thought or effort thus you are "being the technique". If you understand your self fully and the technique and the human mind , body and spirit then you will be the technique as you do it. KC

[Meat Shake]

MA have dual purpose. Are you telling me that the technique you were shown on day 1 is done the same way since then ? NO, It changes as does the application of the technique. That is making the art your own adapting to change so I guess you are so perfect that you always perform the technique by the bookand make it work. I guess you are like jim carry " no attackl like this I said". MA have dual purpose. BTW application comes from a knowledge of the body Muscle origin and insertion, joints , nerves and Accupuncture meridians if you dont know that then you only scrach the surface, as far as application is concerned. You are the joke with no understanding of what doing and being means. KC

"MA have dual purpose. Are you telling me that the technique you were shown on day 1 is done the same way since then ? "

Dual purpose? Yes, to learn how to fight and to get in shape. They work together when done properly.
And yes, the techniques I was shown on day 1 are done the same way, the only difference is that I slowly learned all of the nuances to the specific techniques. Thats exactly why what I have learned is effective.

The applications have remained the same, I just learned more as I went. No technique always works, but training and drilling correctly will drastically increase your potential and abilities to successfully use any given technique.

"I guess you are like jim carry " no attackl like this I said"."

I guess if I watched tv and that actually made sense, I would respond to it in a logical and cohesive manner.

"BTW application comes from a knowledge of the body Muscle origin and insertion, joints , nerves and Accupuncture meridians if you dont know that then you only scrach the surface, as far as application is concerned. You are the joke with no understanding of what doing and being means.
"

Once again.. Hocus pocus magic light, watch this form teach me to fight... Application comes from a knowledge of the application, how and when to use it, and what kind of opponent and situation will make it effective. Meridians dont mean ****. I studied Dim Mak for years, only to realize its main effectiveness was for healing. I use pressure points for breaking people down easier when Im grappling, but past that they are useless. Doing and being arent applicable to fight, unless you just want to play with old quotes like "I think therefore I am"....
But that still doesnt mean anything in terms of fighting. If you are doing and focusing, by those terms, you are being.
I understand, its just a pointless and mystical thing to say that is nothing more than another "magical" statement made to woo the inexperienced and under informed.

[The Xia]

Once you understand then logic is done away with , and philosophy rules, as logic is thought and binds the mind so it is no longer free to be without restriction. KC:)
As I said before, logic is the backbone of philosophy. As far as I'm concerned, logic doesn't bind the mind but frees it from ignorance and stupidity.

You are right there is no Logic in that, as logic will not alllow you to see, it only allows you to look. KC Let me say it this way, Thetechnique happens through you there is no conscious thought or effort thus you are "being the technique". If you understand your self fully and the technique and the human mind , body and spirit then you will be the technique as you do it. KC
You are simply rephrasing what you said. Using a technique correctly and instinctually still doesn’t mean that person is being a technique.

[kwaichang]

MS you contradict yourself more than once in the above statement. Are you saying a technique you have been shown is used as it was shown and that way only. , and you have never used that technique for something else ??? KC If you say yes then you are either living in a box where everybody attacks the same way or you are a liar. KC

[kwaichang]

I see XIA that you are bound by your logic, some things cannot be logical like faith , God , Origin of the universe etc. So I will not discuss this further , but I have enjoyed it. KC

[Meat Shake]

"and you have never used that technique for something else ???"

Nope.
A throw is a throw.
A punch is a punch, a block is a block.
There are techniques used to block that look similar to a punch, and escapes that lead you into throws and even look similar to throws, but the techniques are not the same. There are subtle yet extremely importan nuances between them, and without knowing and understanding the differences you make your techniques ineffective.
I will say it again, your mystic hob knobbery magical kung fu phrase ignorance is exactly why people dismiss SD as a joke a majority of the time. They have people training hard to fight and fighting trying to make a name for themselves, and people like you taking away most credibility within instants.
Peace.

[The Xia]

I see XIA that you are bound by your logic, some things cannot be logical like faith , God , Origin of the universe etc. So I will not discuss this further , but I have enjoyed it. KC
In the Summa Theologica, St. Thomas Aquinas is logical in his approach to faith, God, and the origin of the universe.

[kwaichang]

Well MS I must have woo'ed you as your statements are. KC

[kwaichang]

St Thomas cannot logically explain God. KC

[The Xia]

St Thomas cannot logically explain God. KC
Do you believe he isn't using logic in this excerpt?
http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/aquinas.html#Aquinas

[kwaichang]

The title addresses the existance of God not who or what God is. KC

[The Xia]

The title addresses the existance of God not who or what God is. KC
How's about here?
http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP003.html#FPQ3OUTP1

[kwaichang]

1 st paragraph says we cannot know what god is therefore the thesis is mute and says what God isnt. KC

[kwaichang]

Also XIA God is spirit spirit is formless and therefore not a body. KC

[Meat Shake]

Well MS I must have woo'ed you as your statements are. KC

my statements are what?
Stop speaking in half sentences.
You speak of logic yet fail to use it in your arguments.
SD in and of itself is fundamentally flawed in both techniques and practice.
There are exceptions to the rule, but magical, mumbo jumbo, mystical, spirit riding bafoons like yourself are the rule, and people like you are the exact reason why no one takes SD seriously.
Dont tell me you have fought, because by your posts I know you havent. Dont tell me you know what you are talking about, because by your posts I know you dont. Dont tell me you understand the interaction of 2 or more humans during a confrontation, because I know you know nothing of the sort based upon what you have stated here, and dont tell me about practicing for anything other than health, because you have no idea what you are talking about. I can tell you all about new age artists and who they are, but that doesnt mean Im not full of ****. It just takes someone who knows more than me to call me out, which is the situation you now face, sir.

[Meat Shake]

Also XIA God is spirit spirit is formless and therefore not a body. KC

How is spirit formless?
I dont offer an answer, I just expect you to back up yours.
And please, try and make sense this time.

[kwaichang]

MS you think you know me then what ever I say you will argue and why should I explain why spirit is formless to you since you say
"because I know you know nothing of the sort based upon what you have stated here, and dont tell me about practicing for anything other than health, because you have no idea what you are talking about." You have said it all here. But you are wrong an many levels. Give training another 20 years then you will probably feel the same way I do if you put forth more than physical effort. KC

[The Xia]

I stated that St. Thomas Aquinas uses logic in examining God. We could get into the details of his writings but there is no way you are going to prove that he isn't using logic. The reason you won’t be able to is because he is using logic. In order for a philosophy to be valid, it has to have reason. St. Thomas Aquinas is considered one of the world’s greatest thinkers. He wouldn’t be if there was no logic behind his words. If you want to see his logic, read his works. If you want to see how logic is behind philosophy, read the works of other philosophers as well.

[kwaichang]

I did not say he did not use Logic I said he himself said he could not explain God as he states in your post. Logic is the primary step to philosophy but once it has served its purpose it is discarded very quickly. KC

[Meat Shake]

MS you think you know me then what ever I say you will argue and why should I explain why spirit is formless to you since you say
"because I know you know nothing of the sort based upon what you have stated here, and dont tell me about practicing for anything other than health, because you have no idea what you are talking about." You have said it all here. But you are wrong an many levels. Give training another 20 years then you will probably feel the same way I do if you put forth more than physical effort. KC

lol...
Ive trained about 16 years as it is dude. Ive done qigong, and continue to do so. I call is meditating, but its not for martial arts. Its for health and happiness, and for relaxation. Dont try to justify being just another couch jocky that reads books about flying ninjas and how you too can become one for just one low payment of $29.95.

[BoulderDawg]

I stated that St. Thomas Aquinas uses logic in examining God.

Does he post on the board? Let him speak for himself!:D

[kwaichang]

OF THE SIMPLICITY OF GOD (EIGHT ARTICLES)



When the existence of a thing has been ascertained there remains the further question of the manner of its existence, in order that we may know its essence. Now, because we cannot know what God is, but rather what He is not, we have no means for considering how God is, but rather how He is not.
See here it is. KC

[kwaichang]

Hey MS you dont seem to be too happy also I refer you to my posts on page 289 KC

[The Xia]

He uses logic to answer "Whether God is a body?", "Whether God is composed of matter and form?", and "Whether God is the same as His essence or nature?"
My point that St. Thomas Aquinas is logical in his approach to God is true.

[kwaichang]

He is using Logic to explain that god exists but he is explaining what god is logically because he cant. KC or couldnt

[kwaichang]

Here MS this the definition of spirit it is formless as defined.
spir·it (sprt)
n.
1.
a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings.
b. Incorporeal consciousness.
2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.
3. Spirit The Holy Spirit.
None are solid or having Body. KC

[Meat Shake]

Hey MS you dont seem to be too happy also I refer you to my posts on page 289 KC


Actually, I am extremely happy, its just that when my dog craps on the floor, I call it crap, not magic healing fluff.
Yes, this is a metaphor to your inexplicable rantings about what martial arts truly is.
I consider myself to be an extremely lucky individual in terms of my current life situation, I simply know that I have a decent wealth of knowledge about what fighting is and what works, and what styles are based on what and study in what ways. I dedicated several years of my life to these studies.

[kwaichang]

Here is a definition as well that god is a spirit or w/o body. KC


Similarly, the New Testament contains little systematic theology: little or no philosophical or rigorous definition of God is given, nor of how God acts in the world; however John's gospel states: "God is light" (John 1:5), before he states: "God is love" (John 4:8) and: "God is a Spirit" (John 4:24).

[kwaichang]

MS I am glad you are happy but crap is also fertilizer and helps things to grow and produce food for us to live. I too know what I am saying and have spent many many years searching for the truth of combat and life . Sure I could call you out but so what it isnt to the death or is it ?? Then what would it prove. anyone can be beaten on any given day. KC

[kwaichang]

2 more pages to 300 KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Because we cant go back in time and we dont know what changes occured over time there is no "right" when it comes to applications. I have said before the application is dependent upon the attack , the body style of the person utilizing the technique as well as the size and strength of the participant as well as the attacker. Those who look for applications from others are at times taken down the wrong path. Oh sure it will give you a concept to work from, but that does not lead to making the art your own . To do that you must know your own strengths and weaknesses. The same technigue can be used with many attacks and defenses. KC
PS do not look to others for your own knowledge of applications. that leads to doing instead of being.

Almost the same words as the one's I said were from someone "much wiser" than myself.:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

In the Summa Theologica, St. Thomas Aquinas is logical in his approach to faith, God, and the origin of the universe.

Nevertheless, it is flawed logic, and often contradicts itself...........

So is it really logic?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I stated that St. Thomas Aquinas uses logic in examining God. We could get into the details of his writings but there is no way you are going to prove that he isn't using logic. The reason you won’t be able to is because he is using logic. In order for a philosophy to be valid, it has to have reason. St. Thomas Aquinas is considered one of the world’s greatest thinkers. He wouldn’t be if there was no logic behind his words. If you want to see his logic, read his works. If you want to see how logic is behind philosophy, read the works of other philosophers as well.

Aquinas isn't one of the world's greatest thinkers. He was one of Christianity's greatest thinkers. But in the world of philosophy, he was pretty much a pedant, and not much more......

[Shaolin Wookie]

Dont try to justify being just another couch jocky that reads books about flying ninjas and how you too can become one for just one low payment of $29.95.

Where do I send the money?

[BM2]

Where do I send the money?


PM sent. Not including shipping and handling.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Listen, guys.....

I'm an SD guy that's been "shopping around" at different schools in Atlanta to see if what I'm studying is the best there is for me.

I've checked out Northern Mantis, Wing Chun, BJJ, Kuntao, Southern Mantis, and Longfist.

The Northern Mantis school was wierd. I was the only white guy there, and they wore African scarves as sashes, and claimed that all martial arts (even Chinese) came from Africa. I swear to you that's the truth. They knew their mantis. The head guy was a little strange, but he moved like a surefire mantid, man. They even taught Mariama Kemet (African animal tribal dance) that was used like a kind of wrestling (or so I understood it to be). Hence, they said CMA's animal stuff was just a reflection of African portrayals of the animals. It wasn't for me.......

I went to a Wing Chun school that gave me a free session to try it out. Cool how a lot of MA places will let you do that....;) They drilled a lot, then drilled their forms, and then did some sparring. I sparred a guy there who'd been doing it for two years (I'm 2 years into SD). He was pretty good, or so it seemed from watching him. But when my turn came up for sparring, I beat him silly, using my SD stuff (he asked me to use what I knew, so he was asking for it....quite literally.....:) ). He could hold that centerline alright, but the sheer variety of strikes, stances, footwork, power, and "fighting attitudes" (picked up from SD sparring), I knew had him dumbfounded....and I was able to hold my centerline better than him with my bird stuff!!!:confused: :eek: The rigidity of the strucutre he had confined himself to, just couldn't cope with my footwork, either. We were at it for like 5 minutes, and I just slapped him silly once I realized there was wide gap in our levels of skill. (Slapping is one of the "kind" techs I got from an SD guy who regularly slaps me silly [kind of like recognition that you could punch to really hurt, but don't need to]). When we were finished, he pointed out all the things I'd done wrong. I was silent. It was kind of like what KC was talking about more or less with his Jim Carey thing: "You hit me!?" "You asked me to hit you!" "Yeah, but not like that....now hit me in the correct way!" (hence, the way he could defend against.):D

BJJ--already told that story.:D

Kuntao--100X more wacky stories than SD, man.:eek: . Kuntao via Russia.....I hit the road almost as soon as I walked in the door.......:D

Southern Mantis--Nothing bad to say about it. Not quite what I expected, though. I figured this would be my last stop, but it wasn't all I had touted it to be when I took a sample class. I moved on....to.....:o ....

Longfist---the teacher's a little Chinese dude from HK who also teaches some wushu. He called me out on more strucutral problems in my footwork than anyone ever has....(none of the other schools did, at all, [while SD guys do]). In that 2 hour period, I learned A LOT!:eek: ....doing "fake" shaolin stuff. It was not very different from SD, but the teaching approach was different. He only teaches one day a week for 2 hours.....but this is what I'm now cross-training in. The proof's in the puddin'.....he's not better than my SD teachers, just a little different. I don't think their fighitng ability is better than SD's, but their structure is verrry nice, and it's been my interest of late.

As someone much wiser than myself said, and many of you as well....with various schools you'll find more emphasis on fighting, or structure, or forms. Because it's a limited schedule, and there are often many students in a class, you'll never get to cover them all. In SD, however, you get as much of all of the elements as you can in a class period (and SD has a more accomodating schedule than any of the other schools, which makes me appreciate the dedication of the Masters and instructors more than ever!!!!)

As for SD's cirriculum and fighting......at my experience level, I was better than most people at my level in other schools. Not bragging. It's just the truth. I took very few shots, while mine had the "fortune and luck" (as I'm sure some of you will posit) to land in sweet spots, which bowled over some even more experienced guys. Plus, I was in 1000X better shape than other people in the other schools. They were panting after doing a form they've done a thousand times, which I would consider half as strenuous as Tai Peng Sin Kune. I've always thought SD did a great job of stressing proper breathing, especially in intensive cardio sessions.

SD gives you a very wide-scope for martial knowledge. It focuses on those three groups I mentioned. I value it's fighting ability (and now I feel stupid for having questioned it sooo much of late) far more than the other schools I visited. As for whether or not it's CMA.......

I'm not sure. I think it is, but it has been adapted (many exaggerated motions made more effecient by limiting sweep/scope) more for practical fighting, IMHO. The applications are actually more obvious in the forms. I think that's why some people think it looks like karate. My longfist teacher's stress on stances taught me a lot about weight transition and waist movement in ways I'd never thought about it. (Funny....he kept saying: "No, you're do it wrong. No, you're do it wrong. No, don't go on. Go back, start over. Don't add one mistake on to another." And then at the end, he said: "You do very good job. You have good teacher. Very strong legs.") And here I figured he thought I completely sucked .

I'm just a beginner at my level but I've learned a lot about schools, teaching, etc. just by looking around. SD is better than many schools in my area, but for certain specifics, it can't hurt to look around. So, I'll stick with SD and cross-train in Longfist for now (it's helped improve my SD already):D .

Not the route everyone needs to go, or should go, but the route I feel I should take right now.....

[kwaichang]

Glad to hear it SW. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Thanks, KC. I know I took a strange route, said some ****, and irked some people.....but I learned a lot from doing it, I guess. It also gave me insight into GM Sin The'.....in that, he might have adapted the forms to his idea of what they should be, but **** me if his techs aren't effective in the MA pool. Short forms, call 'em what you will, set me up for more than I can ever imagine......It's all about advance, retreat, constant attack/defense, and centerline.......

Wouldn't call myself an SD dogmatist, but I do appreciate it for what it gave me when I put it to the test....:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

In the end, I think I've wound up exactly where I started.

I think SD might not be the right approach to CMA for all students, but it is the right way for the right kinds of students.:cool:

[The Xia]

Nevertheless, it is flawed logic, and often contradicts itself...........

So is it really logic?

Aquinas isn't one of the world's greatest thinkers. He was one of Christianity's greatest thinkers. But in the world of philosophy, he was pretty much a pedant, and not much more......
I don't see flaws in his logic and many people do see him as one of the world's greatest thinkers.
He was even included in a book titled, "One Hundred Philosophers: The Life and Work of the World's Greatest Thinkers". :p
http://www.amazon.com/One-Hundred-Philosophers-Greatest-Thinkers/dp/0764127918
Whatever though, this is all one big derailment from the original point I was discussing with kwaichang. I stated that one cannot be a technique. One can use, do, perform, practice, etc a technique. I gave examples. His retort was that his statements are true but illogical. I maintain my stance on this. I can do, perform, use, and practice a jab. I can jab. I can jab well. I can be a jabber. But I am not a jab. What do you think Wookie?

[Shaolin Wookie]

KC's a big Bruce Lee fan (philosophy, at least), and I think he's kind of gelling with the idea that you don't throw a punch, the punch is the body's response to a particular scenario, which may or may not occur with significant "active thought."

If you practice something enough, and it becomes habitual (like flipping your wrist with the right amount of flip on a jump-shot in b-ball), then it occurs out of body-memory.....hence, it's not premeditated, it kind of becomes instinctual. In that regard, the punch occurs, because you are there in that particular situation. The punch cannot occur without you. You are a significant part of the punch. But if you arent' really thinking about it, it kind of is like an extension of yourself......

My feet work that way with footwork/doding/stances, but my hands don't do that. I don't think, hey, let me step off the line at like a 45 degree angle to open up for this or that technique......but I did think that way when I started. Now I just do it from habit.....so I am the technique, in that I embody what the technique was in place to teach me. Now it isn't a technique anymore. It's me, my body, moving at a 45 degree angle.....it's not a technique that my body follows. My body is the technique. (Like forms, you learn a form until you don't have to remember it anymore, and you just act, rather than "remember")....

Sounds kind of fortune cookie though, I admit it.:) :D

[Shaolin Wookie]

I don't see flaws in his logic and many people do see him as one of the world's greatest thinkers.
He was even included in a book titled, "One Hundred Philosophers: The Life and Work of the World's Greatest Thinkers". :p
http://www.amazon.com/One-Hundred-Philosophers-Greatest-Thinkers/dp/0764127918
Whatever though, this is all one big derailment from the original point I was discussing with kwaichang. I stated that one cannot be a technique. One can use, do, perform, practice, etc a technique. I gave examples. His retort was that his statements are true but illogical. I maintain my stance on this. I can do, perform, use, and practice a jab. I can jab. I can jab well. I can be a jabber. But I am not a jab. What do you think Wookie?

As for Aquinas......Augustine and William James were also listed on that book....'nuff said. (I'm not a big fan of Augustine at all)...

Funny thing about philosophy. Almost everything Aristotle had to say regarding Physics and science was wrong. Is it worthless? Nope. But wrong nevertheless (he debunked the atomists, and his ontology/astronomy was warped). His paideia of principles regarding philology and other matters was spot on........but much of what he said was right out....:p Nowadays, we prize him for the fact that in his day and age, he was considering hte world around him in a rational manner without the instrumentation needed to verify his suppositions. That is laudable.

But he was wrong, nevertheless..........so being a good philosopher is like being all that you can be.......but it doesn't mean you got accurate results.

Proof's in the puddin', and not a lot of philosophers are very "right" in the end. Knowledge is syncretic.....kinda like MA.

[kwaichang]

SW pegged it but I am more a B Lee historian than fan. The point is MA w/o philosophy or greater thought is just fighting. Many of the traditional MA those tried and true over time has at their core Philosophical or religous concept. Taoism , Budhism, Christianity , Muslim, Shinto , Zen, Etc KC

[Meat Shake]

Where do I send the money?

To my paypal account. Ill have you the certificate in the mail tomorrow.
:eek:

Kwaichang-
Theres no point in arguing with you because you dont make points. You just make philosophical statements that arent really philosophy, closer to the ramblings of a drunkard that watched too many kung fu flicks.
Good luck with whatever you do, I cannot show colors to those who choose to remain blind.

[kwaichang]

What ponts do you want me to make ??? KC

[kwaichang]

I have shown you that God is formless and that MA are what you make it what else do you wish me to address I will but I warn you I do not pull punches when I address a topic. KC

[Meat Shake]

I have shown you that God is formless and that MA are what you make it what else do you wish me to address I will but I warn you I do not pull punches when I address a topic. KC


You dont make sense when you address a topic either, so whats your point?
The points I want you to make are the ones that you dodged with cheesy kung fu answers for the last 3 or 4 pages.

[kwaichang]

MS refresh my memory what points do you speak of I do not recall you wanting my point on anything. KC

[kwaichang]

OK MS I went back through the pages and saw a couple of points you tried to make and I guess you wanted me to address. But 1st I want to say you are one rude a// and do not deserve any answers to any questions.
1. SD training and principles . Not all SD people train the same way I dont and many dont , you have apparently met those who are solely into "getting in shape".
2. You have trained for 16 years ? Maybe if you say so . You speak of peace and happyness and then insult those you dont know, you are rude.
3. I have trained for 36 years this August hard style and soft real and more real.
Does this tell you what you want to know. ?? KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

But 1st I want to say you are one rude a// and do not deserve any answers to any questions.


:D Someone just laid the smackdown....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Alright, in the interest of making this thread run onto 300 pages ASAP:D , I'm interested to know some of the tales that surround our forms. I'm a literary man, so it's kind of a thing I'm interested in, plus I love Chinese literature....

For instance: Hai Lun Chong=the Monkey King rampaging through the Eastern Sea Dragon's kingdom in Journey to the West.

In the form, concerning animal attidues, etc., you flip around and whirl a lot like a monkey thrashing through a kingdom would, have that cool kneeling stance with a side hand extended and the eyebrow-stick over the shoulder, and that downward strip which hits the ground in a monkey stance in full grip. Although it's not typically considered a monkey form, I do consider it to be one based on its structure. Hell, you're using an eyebrow-height-staff.....and the form refers to the time where he obtained the staff for the first time (while he was squatting in the king's chambers and making general mischief)....

I was sifting through some old SD threads (man, "work" is boring), and found some discussion about translation of SD forms, etc:


Lol, no but that term has apparently stuck around. I didn't know about it until that thread actually. The form in question is "Ching Kang Fu Hu Chien" I always called it "Golden Mountain Tiger Trap" (Which seems to be the consensus looking at the various SD websites' translations. Some variations include the SDA site, which has it listed as "Golden Metal Man Tiger Trap" Atlanta's site has it listed: Jin Gang Fu Hu Quan - "Wu Sung Defeats the Tiger"

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782&page=82&pp=10

The link to the page where GT says the misnomer was funny and kind of stuck.

The discussion concerned the translation of "Jingang" from Jingang fu hu chien.....and Gene posted a link to a WuSong article, because apparently ATL sometimes calls the form "Wu Song defeats the Tiger."

Quotations from the article: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=237

"In the novel (Water Margin), Wu Song has finished a special mission and passed by a small village (Mount Jinyang) on the way to visit his brother. He reads a notice warning travelers to avoid going out after sunset because of a big, man-eating tiger in the surrounding woods. The villagers are terrified and refuse to leave their homes at night.

For the safety of the people, Wu Song decides to kill the tiger himself. After drinking three bowls of wine, he went in search of the tiger with his staff. When the tiger leaped out at him in the woods the staff broke, and Wu Song grabbed the neck of the tiger. Finally, he killed it with his bare hands. One might also read the battle with a man-eating tiger as a political allegory."

Well, "Jinyang" is pretty much the same flavor as "Jingang", so this would mark a link between this form and the Water Margin. And at the very end of the form, you have that elbow followed by a face rake, neck grab, then the smashing of the face on the knee....kind of imitating grabbing a tiger by the neck and killing it with the knee....which summarily ends up closing the form pretty much, aside from the salute.

Pan Long Bong, from what I gather, is a form that comes from the son of a famous general who used a spear (I don't remember the names...or teh source....if anyone can supply these for me, I'd be veeeeeery appreciative:) ), but became an outlaw when the general was killed. He entered the Shaolin Temple to hone his skills so he could get revenge, a la Masterkiller:cool: , and faced a contraption like a Metal Wolf in one of the chambers, and used his staff to knock out the teeth using the circle/winding motions. Someone in class said there was a Shaw Bros. movie that had a scene like that or something. Any references would be cool....

If any of you guys know some of the tales that surround the forms (in terms of literature), and you post them, I'll PM you a link to real nudie shots of Jessica Simpson......just kiddin'...

Or am I?

[BM2]

[QUOTE=Meat Shake;741591]To my paypal account. Ill have you the certificate in the mail tomorrow.
:eek:

If you send it to MY paypal I will send you a link where you can download your certificate and print it out today! Why wait? Send it now!

[Shaolin Wookie]

[QUOTE=Meat Shake;741591]To my paypal account. Ill have you the certificate in the mail tomorrow.
:eek:

If you send it to MY paypal I will send you a link where you can download your certificate and print it out today! Why wait? Send it now!

Yeah, but then the signature won't be authentic, b/c it would be in computer ink. I want to be a real flying ninja. That's why I'd rather get the certificate in the mail. Sooner I get the authentic one, the sooner I can start builing my Technodrome. BTW, if you're willing to send it overnight shipping, you've got my business, dude.

Plus, if you've got any extra mutagen lying around, I'll buy that for a dollar.....

[ricardocameron]

The title addresses the existance of God not who or what God is. KC


Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

[BoulderDawg]

Whatever happened to that guy from the Netherlands that was suppose to show us all these pictures of Master Ie?

He showed us two pictures of two different people and then left the board!:D

[Sal Canzonieri]

Alright, in the interest of making this thread run onto 300 pages ASAP:D , I'm interested to know some of the tales that surround our forms. I'm a literary man, so it's kind of a thing I'm interested in, plus I love Chinese literature....

For instance: Hai Lun Chong=the Monkey King rampaging through the Eastern Sea Dragon's kingdom in Journey to the West.

In the form, concerning animal attidues, etc., you flip around and whirl a lot like a monkey thrashing through a kingdom would, have that cool kneeling stance with a side hand extended and the eyebrow-stick over the shoulder, and that downward strip which hits the ground in a monkey stance in full grip. Although it's not typically considered a monkey form, I do consider it to be one based on its structure. Hell, you're using an eyebrow-height-staff.....and the form refers to the time where he obtained the staff for the first time (while he was squatting in the king's chambers and making general mischief)....

I was sifting through some old SD threads (man, "work" is boring), and found some discussion about translation of SD forms, etc:



The discussion concerned the translation of "Jingang" from Jingang fu hu chien.....and Gene posted a link to a WuSong article, because apparently ATL sometimes calls the form "Wu Song defeats the Tiger."

Quotations from the article: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=237

"In the novel (Water Margin), Wu Song has finished a special mission and passed by a small village (Mount Jinyang) on the way to visit his brother. He reads a notice warning travelers to avoid going out after sunset because of a big, man-eating tiger in the surrounding woods. The villagers are terrified and refuse to leave their homes at night.

For the safety of the people, Wu Song decides to kill the tiger himself. After drinking three bowls of wine, he went in search of the tiger with his staff. When the tiger leaped out at him in the woods the staff broke, and Wu Song grabbed the neck of the tiger. Finally, he killed it with his bare hands. One might also read the battle with a man-eating tiger as a political allegory."

Well, "Jinyang" is pretty much the same flavor as "Jingang", so this would mark a link between this form and the Water Margin. And at the very end of the form, you have that elbow followed by a face rake, neck grab, then the smashing of the face on the knee....kind of imitating grabbing a tiger by the neck and killing it with the knee....which summarily ends up closing the form pretty much, aside from the salute.


Jingang, as anyone that understands Chinese and even if they don't, as anyone that knows classic Shaolin terminology, means nothing of the sort that you wrote above, instead please see that jingang means:

Vajra in the original indian it was translated from, and in Chinese it means "Diamond" or "hard metal" (when you add Jin (gold) with gang (tough or firm, gang also means Chop, and there is a distinctive chopping move in the style).

The Jingang were four warrior attendants (bodyguards) for the Buddha.

Jingang forms were developed at Shaolin (or associated with Shaolin at least) during the Song and Yuan Dynasties.

One Jingang lineage is supposed to have originated in the Song Dynasty, over 1100 years ago. It is a military heritage developed by Yu Hua Long. In the Ming dynasty his descendant Yu Xian was the Minister of Military Affairs. His son, You Shen Xing, was one of the Crown Prince's instructors. The family has had many well known and respected instructors.

The other Jingang lineage is from the Yuan Dynasty, and it is from Abbott Fu Ju's efforts. This Jingang style still practiced in Shaolin with a set of 10 forms. It was originally created to aid elderly monks to continue to practice Chan meditation through martial practice, Jin Gang Quan employs slow movements in unison with breathing and stretching to circulate internal energy (Qi) through the body, improving the practitioner’s overall health.

The eagle claw movements come originally from this Shaolin Jingang quan, which they often called their forms Eagle Claw (Ying Zhao) Vajra Quan.

Jingang quan is very advanced and not easy to do at all.

[Shaolin Wookie]

But there's never consensus on how SD/CSC forms are translated. Jingang does "sound" like Jinyang. My teachers said the form was called: "Golden Tiger descends the mountain." It's a tiger form. Some apparently call the form "Wu Song defeats the tiger," so maybe they mistranslated Jingang as Jinyang, and saw the connection between Wu Song and this tiger form. Or maybe both translations are correct. I'm looking for "inside SD" guys' opinions on this, as they've been around a long time, and have probably more history on the stories behind the forms. Although, Sal, I do really appreciate the info.:) Very interesting stuff. Who says you can't learn stuff on KFM?

[Sal Canzonieri]

But there's never consensus on how SD/CSC forms are translated. Jingang does "sound" like Jinyang. My teachers said the form was called: "Golden Tiger descends the mountain." It's a tiger form. Some apparently call the form "Wu Song defeats the tiger," so maybe they mistranslated Jingang as Jinyang, and saw the connection between Wu Song and this tiger form. Or maybe both translations are correct. I'm looking for "inside SD" guys' opinions on this, as they've been around a long time, and have probably more history on the stories behind the forms. Although, Sal, I do really appreciate the info.:) Very interesting stuff. Who says you can't learn stuff on KFM?

All you need is to see the Chinese characters for the form titles.

I remember being shown a list of forms from a student, over 10 years ago.
It had all the form names and the Chinese characters.
I remember that the english names were not the actual translation for some of the forms.

Mountain is SHAN, not Chien.

Fu Hu = Ambush Tiger

I remember that the form you are talking about had Chinese characters and the english was:
"Ching Kang Fu Hu Chuan" - (golden mountain (hero) catches the tiger fist), as shown here:
http://www.austinkungfu.com/about_adult_forms.asp

Also, Jin Gang Fu Hu Quan - "Tiger Descends Golden Mountain"
as shown here: http://www.shaolincenter.com/kung_fu_curriculum_1.html
(most of these shown have very incorrect translation of the pinyin words)

which both are totally wrong, the pinyin Chinese simply means Jin gang (Buddha's warrior attentants) ambush tiger boxing (chuan or quan can also be translated as "exercise", which is more closer to what a form is rather than "boxing"). Although a Jingang can be called a Hero, in the Chinese pinyin there is no Mountain written there nor is someone catching a tiger's fist, nor is the tiger descending a mountain. None of those english words are in shown in the pinyin.

there are a lot of Ambush Tiger forms.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've figured out that much....and I'm working on my Chin-it-ain't-EZ right now.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I am the master of the three hundred!!!!!

I have ushered in the new era of Shaolin Do Banter!!!

You will bow down before me and swear fealty to the Wookie!!!


BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Darn....Gene just banned me.....

[Lamassu]

Darn....Gene just banned me.....

and what does that entail? :confused:

[ricardocameron]

I have the series and the book.

Old posts....love 'em!

I'd like to get that series and book anyone know where to get it?


In the series GM The demonstrated the sparring techniques so I think it was still open as to which one would be used in a standard curriculum. Also, I learned some of them differently under my first teacher vs. now. Master Mike would tell me that they were taught that way at one time, but now they are done this way. Just drills for applications of our forms as any good martial art should have in it's curriculum.

Mullins Site's version of Sparr. Tech #5 from their website notes:
"Jump, front hand punch, back hand punch, roundhouse."

The way I learned it in Atlanta:starting from Right Side forward(o'course :) )
"Back hand(left) punch, front hand(right) punch(both number one's), front hand(right arm)block down(drops to block groin), jump-front snap kick right leg"

...no initial jump, no roundhouse and I have a block in the middle....So how'd THAT get so different??? go figure :rolleyes:

I'm kinda partial to the way I was taught, naturally....
I USED to be bothered by that kind of stuff. But the differences don't matter as much to me anymore. I'm still throwin' 2 strikes and a kick :D

[Shaolin Wookie]

and what does that entail? :confused:

Just kiddin'.........:D .....

But it would entail taking away my pitchfork, wiping that sharpie-inscribed goatee off of my chin, stripping from me my red spandex suit and styrofoam wings, and cutting off my fake tail, whihc I donned for that post.

There's only room for one dark lord in this hell.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Old posts....love 'em!

I'd like to get that series and book anyone know where to get it?



Mullins Site's version of Sparr. Tech #5 from their website notes:
"Jump, front hand punch, back hand punch, roundhouse."

The way I learned it in Atlanta:starting from Right Side forward(o'course :) )
"Back hand(left) punch, front hand(right) punch(both number one's), front hand(right arm)block down(drops to block groin), jump-front snap kick right leg"

...no initial jump, no roundhouse and I have a block in the middle....So how'd THAT get so different??? go figure :rolleyes:

I'm kinda partial to the way I was taught, naturally....
I USED to be bothered by that kind of stuff. But the differences don't matter as much to me anymore. I'm still throwin' 2 strikes and a kick :D


Word..........it sounds a little like short form 26.....

[ricardocameron]

All you need is to see the Chinese characters for the form titles.

I remember being shown a list of forms from a student, over 10 years ago.
It had all the form names and the Chinese characters.
I remember that the english names were not the actual translation for some of the forms.

Mountain is SHAN, not Chien.

Fu Hu = Ambush Tiger

which both are totally wrong, the pinyin Chinese simply means Jin gang (Buddha's warrior attentants) ambush tiger boxing (chuan or quan can also be translated as "exercise", which is more closer to what a form is rather than "boxing"). Although a Jingang can be called a Hero, in the Chinese pinyin there is no Mountain written there nor is someone catching a tiger's fist, nor is the tiger descending a mountain. None of those english words are in shown in the pinyin.

there are a lot of Ambush Tiger forms.

Which would kinda explain Gm The's take on the "Golden Statue/cyborg" deal spoken of before. Golden Statues' being the Buddha's Attendants.

Other "mistranslations" are evident...

From Shaolincenter
Si Men Dao Lian - "Reversibly Facing Four Opponents"

Mullins:
Se Mong Tau Lie ~ Four Door Way Break

etc.

And yes... I looked at the notes...it's performed somewhat differently than I was taught in Atlanta a while back. Their lineage is out of the Soard's, I think, because when I trained in Colorado in 98, my stuff seemed like it was more like theirs than what I've seen of the Tennesseeans'

[Shaolin Wookie]

Which would kinda explain Gm The's take on the "Golden Statue/cyborg" deal spoken of before. Golden Statues' being the Buddha's Attendants.

Other "mistranslations" are evident...

From Shaolincenter
Si Men Dao Lian - "Reversibly Facing Four Opponents"

Mullins:
Se Mong Tau Lie ~ Four Door Way Break

etc.

And yes... I looked at the notes...it's performed somewhat differently than I was taught in Atlanta a while back. Their lineage is out of the Soard's, I think, because when I trained in Colorado in 98, my stuff seemed like it was more like theirs than what I've seen of the Tennesseeans'

So where are you now, Ricky-boy?

As for Se Meng Tao Lian.......both names might be right. I think a lot of the direct translations from Chinese sound wierd, even in other schools. Some of these "mis-translations" are probably attempts to communicate the meaning or approximation to American students in their own idiom. Hence, reversibly facing four opponents.....you face four opponents/directions in the form, and each time you turn a corner, you start with a blocking maneuver, which would be like switching from one opponent to the next....at each door (gate)....

[ricardocameron]

Listen, guys.....

I'm an SD guy that's been "shopping around" at different schools in Atlanta to see if what I'm studying is the best there is for me.

I've checked out Northern Mantis, Wing Chun, BJJ, Kuntao, Southern Mantis, and Longfist.


You didn't mention regular ol' japanese karate or Kenpo styles....no interest, or just didn't get to 'em? I've always liked the look of Parker's Kenpo, (Jeff Speakman looked like he could use it)althought not like SD, it DOES seem to mix chinese stuff in there, at least! You said it was crap, why do ya think?

[ricardocameron]

Hanging out in Tampa Bay!

The Prodigal Monk... :D

[kwaichang]

Number 5 double hit kick with roundhouse right hand left foot , then left hand right foot, the way I was taught KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

You didn't mention regular ol' japanese karate or Kenpo styles....no interest, or just didn't get to 'em? I've always liked the look of Parker's Kenpo, (Jeff Speakman looked like he could use it)althought not like SD, it DOES seem to mix chinese stuff in there, at least! You said it was crap, why do ya think?

No mobility in the forms. I'm a footwork kind of guy, always on the move.....plus, seemed like a lot of wasted movement.

One of the thing I noticed while "shopping around" was the wasted motions people seemed intent on keeping intact as I punched them in the face. I didn't set out to be nasty......but people just weren't protecting themselves efficiently in many places........and they couldn't move..........

There were lots of really good guys at many of the schools, don't get me wrong. But they weren't staffed by experts.......not by any means.

Let's just say, that based on fighting instinct and soundness alone, I walked back through SD's doors with a sigh of relief.........

But that Longfist guy is excellent for structure, I'll tell you that........

[Shaolin Wookie]

Might not be crap, per say. When I called it crap, I meant.....it's not for me. I'd bet that many of the "false" styles have some martial value.....I'd even go out on a limb and say some of the Chung Moo Doe cultists could have defended themselves pretty well. Some Kempo guys are really quite badass, at least from what I've heard. But in the case of the one you mentioned......I think it would be crap for me, so I didn't bother (did some Okinawan when I was younger, don't remember a whit of it....and quickly quit, b/c it was not my cup of tea). Plus, I like the "softness" and the "fluidity" of CMA styles. They suit me so much better than something like karate. The Longfist guy I'm with, for however short or long that may be, teaches out of a karate school in their off hours. He only has 4-5 regular students, so it's kind of like a private lesson. But I saw some karate dudes practicing before class started, and thought to myself.....nope, not for me. I don't move like that. That's not to say that SD came naturally. I always considered myself a relaxed guy....until I realized just how tense I was as the Master of the school kept saying....."Man, you gotta relax..." or "Drop that shoulder....it's too tense...."

The softness and relaxation of the style fits my personality.....which is easy-going and light.


I gotta admit.....I do like some of the flash and sizzle in CMA, too......:o ......

[Meat Shake]

:D Someone just laid the smackdown....

Boy, is my face red.

Some people call those who dont gently tell them that their bull**** is really pudding rude and *******s. No sweat off my ass.

Wookie-
Youd be a fool not to spend at least a day checking out David Lin's shuai chiao school if you really want to learn how to fight.

[tattooedmonk]

Old posts....love 'em!

I'd like to get that series and book anyone know where to get it?



Mullins Site's version of Sparr. Tech #5 from their website notes:
"Jump, front hand punch, back hand punch, roundhouse."

The way I learned it in Atlanta:starting from Right Side forward(o'course :) )
"Back hand(left) punch, front hand(right) punch(both number one's), front hand(right arm)block down(drops to block groin), jump-front snap kick right leg"

...no initial jump, no roundhouse and I have a block in the middle....So how'd THAT get so different??? go figure :rolleyes:

I'm kinda partial to the way I was taught, naturally....
I USED to be bothered by that kind of stuff. But the differences don't matter as much to me anymore. I'm still throwin' 2 strikes and a kick :Dcontact KET television in Kentucky they still sell them some 25 years later. I have a copy of the tapes not of the book .that was stolen from me.:(

[Judge Pen]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;741860]One of the thing I noticed while "shopping around" was the wasted motions people seemed intent on keeping intact as I punched them in the face. I didn't set out to be nasty......but people just weren't protecting themselves efficiently in many places........and they couldn't move..........
[QUOTE]

I move very little when I spar. I only move when I have to.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I have a hard time getting at "settlers"........but in a sparring session, two people can't "settle"......one of 'em has to move. Otherwise, it's just Shaolin Chan as we sit there and meditate.....not Shaolin kung-fu.......

So I'm usually the guy that gets the action going by moving up and about.....in that kind of situation, I've got to move. Plus, if I notice someone has bad footwork, I use it to my advantage......(Ali/Leonard did the same thing):)

Plus, many of those people didn't move when they had to......

I'm not great, but I'm pretty sure I don't suck......

[Shaolin Wookie]

contact KET television in Kentucky they still sell them some 25 years later. I have a copy of the tapes not of the book .that was stolen from me.:(

Men in black suits, with dark shades?

Cool link though.......might be able to get copies of old broadcasts.......

[Shaolin Wookie]

Wookie-
Youd be a fool not to spend at least a day checking out David Lin's shuai chiao school if you really want to learn how to fight.

I have to admit....I know next-to-nothing about shuai chiao.......but if, say, I was a fool, and I decided not to check out D. Lin's shuai chiao school, would you pity me?

[NastyHaggis]

Does anyone know the name of Grandmaster Sin's TV program on KET? I'm on their website and have searched high and low in their archives but can't find it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I have one recording on DVD of a mantis form.....have to wait 'till I get home to double check the name of the show. I think it was something generic, like "Karate" or something really simple like that. It would be cool to get a set......if they're not waaaay expensive.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

I've been lurking in the shadows for a bit... gotta say my piece.

SW... you must be a sparring monster. An absolute monster. To be able to walk into a Wing Chun school & "slap around" a student that you say has been studying at least as long as you. Did you suggest "sparring"? Was it brought up as part of the class?

Here's a suggestion the next time you find yourself in that position. Politely ask the sifu to forego the sparring since you'll just slap people around & just get right to the juicy stuff... use these words... gong sau. I'm sure you'll be more than adequately impressed after that. At that point, I'm sure the manners of sparring with somebody from not in their kwoon would come off & you'd get a feel of what they're really about.

BTW... what Wing Chun school was it that you slapped around this person? I can think of a couple that wouldn't have been as gracious.

Why harp on the PM people? So they think ALL MA originate in Africa. SD claims that they have the original Shaolin stuff! Where's the difference?

What did you expect from the SPM people? Hakka arts tend to put HUGE focus on footwork for the first good while you're lucky enough to find a Hakka teacher. They're not a McKwoon type of style.

You made a comment ...


I'm just a beginner at my level but I've learned a lot about schools, teaching, etc. just by looking around. SD is better than many schools in my area, but for certain specifics, it can't hurt to look around. So, I'll stick with SD and cross-train in Longfist for now (it's helped improve my SD already)


... that strikes me as the pinnacle of ignorance. How can you say you "learned alot about..." when you never even scratched the surface of an intro class??? How do you know what they do when you (an outsider) isn't around? How do you know what the seniors do when you (an outsider) and their junior classmates aren't around? How can you be so blind as to presume that SD with its many different "arts" taught with no specific training, technqiues, etc... is better than a single threaded, training & oriented specific method?

By all means... go see David Lin. Be sure to use the attitude you've shown here & don't forget the term I gave you earlier ... gong sau (for a refresher) ... so you can skip the manners & get straight to the heart of the matter.

I'll be around... let us know how it goes.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Haha....Bubba.....

When you read a post on the internet, you might think I sound proud and arrogant. I write in active voice, and rarely in the passive, so it sounds affirmative (a writing trait engendered by exhaustive studies in UGA's English Dept. getting A's from teachers loath to give them.:) ) I'm not an arrogant guy.

At the WC school, we didn't do any chi sao, thank god. Or I'm sure I would've had my ass handed to me bigtime (like push-hands, I suck at that, too). We free sparred, and I don't think I could've beaten everyone there, but I beat on the people of my skill level like nobody's business. I was a sparring monster that day, at that time, against those people. I honestly don't think they'd ever sparred anyone other than WC people. I'd never sparred a WC person....but I came out on top. It's not style-vs-style. It's mano-a-mano, right? People who know me in SD can tell you I'm not a monster. Sometimes I get my ass kicked. But I'm usually pretty solid--against people my level anyways. Blackbelts beat me like I'm a little kid. Perhaps you missed the part where I said that? I didn't slap everyone around....but some people. I visited an MMA school in Norcross, and walked right back out. I would've had my ass handed to me in 5 seconds--and that definately wasn't the place for me....but I figured, why not check out everything?:D Note: I also got tossed around like a rag doll at a BJJ school. I'm not superman, and I never pretend to be. Well, that's a lie. When I used to work for food services at UGA, I'd always turn my apron around like a cape, and I stole the "Superman" sticker off of the ice cream machine and put it on my name tag.....:o .....funny as hell though, 'cuz 99% of the people who worked there didn't know my name. They all just called me Superman.

Anyways.....

As for the PM school........I'm not dissing them. Those dudes were good. Some of 'em were some scary dudes. But SD catches flack for wearing belts and gi's......and this school was wearing scarves, doing capoeira, and all kinds of stuff:D . I was looking for a more "focused" school. One that tackled "one thing." I found that in the Longfist guy. What's the difference between SD and the PM school? Besides the getup, it was the schedule and the styles, and the price. IF you're talking about the stories....well, part of the reason I was looking around was because of SD's sometimes-outrageous stories. One of the most valuable lessons I learned from looking around was----"Everyone's got their stories....some of them equally strange/outlandish"........

I did learn a lot about schools, teaching, etc. in CMA by looking around. I saw the different approaches people used to teach. I've heard SD criticized repeatedly for lack of drilling and just forms collecting. I found that a lot of the schools in my area do the exact same thing, but many of them (due to shorter schedules) don't get in half the practice we do. And many of them don't spar. Some of them do very little forms work, and almost all drilling. The big thing I learned was----hell, I'm pretty much doing the same thing everyone else is doing, but SD's schedule gives greater access to all kinds of work....because it has more open hours.;)

I still like that SPM school--from the little I saw. Funny, what they did reminded me of SD in a lot of ways. I figured, why shell out that kind of money to do something I'm already doing in a different form? Didn't make logistical sense.


How do you know what the seniors do when you (an outsider) and their junior classmates aren't around? How can you be so blind as to presume that SD with its many different "arts" taught with no specific training, technqiues, etc... is better than a single threaded, training & oriented specific method?

Obviously you don't know me very well. Or, do you?:D Me, blind? Well, I do have bad eyesight..........really bad. But I can drive alright. Several people online here extended me open hands and said: hey, come check out our ATL school. One even put on a demo for me and let me get in on some drills in a higher-level class. A CLF guy on here offered to help me in my search, but I'd made up my mind before I visited him (No offence, Sean---cool guy:cool: ). Anyways...I don't have any friggin' clue what the senior guys at my school do when we junior classmates aren't around.

I have no intention of going to see David Lin. No offense. Don't know anything 'bout Shuai Chao. Don't really care. :) . My whole search was to find out if SD was preparing me "maritally" in a way that was economical, efficient, etc. If it wasn't...I was gone. I wasn't looking for a reason to stay. I was actually looking for a place to go. Surprise, surprise, I stayed where I was. (Might sound like I was looking for a reason to stay....but I was literally out the door and told my girlfriend and brother: I'm finished there.) My find: SD was preparing me pretty well. I've got great teachers. My Longfist teacher thinks my footwork is horrible, b/c I don't keep my root in my heels enough during stance transitions. He's calling me out on mechanics. I like that. So, on Saturday nights I'll go have him show me how to make stance transitions with better efficiency. You might think that's the fault of SD, but it's only something that comes with large classrooms. You just don't have time to pick everything out......but private lesson-type scenarios focus on more specific things, b/c you have the time to do so.

I'm not into collecting styles, per say. I wanna be able to use the stuff I've already invested time/$$ in. I found out I can, more or less. And if I'm having a good day and you're having a **** poor one, and you come into SD and wanna spar, and I get lucky and start slapping you around....yea for me....right? HAHAHAHA...just kiddin'.

IF all of this sounds arrogant, then I'm a friggin' arrogant son of a *****.:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Oh, and I didn't post the names of any of the schools I went to for one reason, and one reason only:

Who the **** cares anyways?:D

[kungfujunky]

bubba why are you so irritated by sw post?

you think it impossible that he could slap around a wing chun guy?

and i think you are taking him a little to literally. i know when i spar in csc i slap faces to make my opponent aware his guard is low. but im not ***** slapping him lol

just tapping the cheek or forehead. in glove sparring ill ring your bell hehe but in normal class its just a friendly reminder to guard your face.

i have alos sparred a wing chun guy. he had 5 years in wing chun and joined csc to expand what he had. one day we were sparring and he made a comment about the superiority of his old wing chun stuff. i said go for it...just use that and feel free to ring my bell if you can.

i slapped his ass all over the school. he was very good at the center line strikes and trapping but he couldnt account for my footwork and that made the fight easy for me.



to presume someone cant whip up on a wing chun guy is silly. its also silly to think i cant have my ass summarily handed to me by someone better. thats why we train.

in my travels i have sparred a mmaist a wing chun guy a kenpo black belt and a 5th level tae kwan do master.

it was fun to see the different styles and how they were appiled in that system.

ultimately i like where i am.

sw probably did slap the guy around.....but he didnt do it with wing chun..he did it with our style.

and telling him to say some phrase without giving him the translation is just stupid man. sounds like YOUR the one with the issues and maybe YOU should cross hands with an sd or csc guy.

[Shaolin Wookie]

its also silly to think i cant have my ass summarily handed to me by someone better. thats why we train.
.

Word.....anyone from any style who says any differently is just a troll.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

Haha....Bubba.....

When you read a post on the internet, you might think I sound proud and arrogant. I write in active voice, and rarely in the passive, so it sounds affirmative (a writing trait engendered by exhaustive studies in UGA's English Dept. getting A's from teachers loath to give them.:) ) I'm not an arrogant guy.

Lovely, but it does you no service when trying to talk to a large audience who don't know you but only have your words, voicing, diction & phrasing to go on.



At the WC school, we didn't do any chi sao, thank god. Or I'm sure I would've had my ass handed to me bigtime (like push-hands, I suck at that, too). We free sparred, and I don't think I could've beaten everyone there, but I beat on the people of my skill level like nobody's business.

See my point above.



I was a sparring monster that day, at that time, against those people. People who know me in SD can tell you I'm not a monster. Sometimes I get my ass kicked. But I'm usually pretty solid--against people my level anyways.
Perhaps you missed the part where I said that? I didn't slap everyone around....but some people. I visited an MMA school in Norcross, and walked right back out. I would've had my ass handed to me in 5 seconds.:D Note: I also got tossed around like a rag doll at a BJJ school (Jacare Cavalcanti). I'm not superman, and I never pretend to be.

Why not handle them like the Wing Chun peeps? Is it because they don't play the same game as you, just like the Wing Chun peeps don't play the same as you?



Well, that's a lie. When I used to work for food services at UGA, I'd always turn my apron around like a cape, and I stole the "Superman" sticker off of the ice cream machine and put it on my name tag.....:o .....funny as hell though, 'cuz 99% of the people who worked there didn't know my name. They all just called me Superman.


Another reason to avoid public colleges...



As for the PM school........I'm not dissing them. Those dudes were good. Some of 'em were some scary dudes. But SD catches flack for wearing belts and gi's......and this school was wearing scarves, doing capoeira, and all kinds of stuff:D . I was looking for a more "focused" school. One that tackled "one thing." I found that in the Longfist guy. What's the difference between SD and the PM school? Besides the getup, it was the schedule and the styles, and the price. IF you're talking about the stories....well, part of the reason I was looking around was because of SD's sometimes-outrageous stories. One of the most valuable lessons I learned from looking around was----"Everyone's got their stories....some of them equally strange/outlandish"........


Do they teach the PM, Capoeria & stuff altogether or are they separate training classes? That's the point. They may teach those things, but are they kept separate or tossed in a blender like SD? The African origin theory has been bandied back & forth for a while now. The difference is that SD says they have the original deal & a whole lotta other stuff that just is outlandish or out right false.



I did learn a lot about schools, teaching, etc. in CMA by looking around. I saw the different approaches people used to teach. I've heard SD criticized repeatedly for lack of drilling and just forms collecting. I found that a lot of the schools in my area do the exact same thing, but many of them (due to shorter schedules) don't get in half the practice we do. And many of them don't spar. Some of them do very little forms work, and almost all drilling. The big thing I learned was----hell, I'm pretty much doing the same thing everyone else is doing, but SD's schedule gives greater access to all kinds of work....because it has more open hours.;)


Not really, but if it makes you feel good, more power to you.



I still love that SPM school. Funny, what they did reminded me of SD in a lot of ways. I figured, why shell out that kind of money to do something I'm already doing in a different form? Didn't make logistical sense.


That's funny!!! That's freaking comedy at its finest. Comparing SD to SPM & it reminding you of SD in a lot of ways.



Obviously you don't know me very well. Or, do you?:D Me, blind? Well, I do have bad eyesight..........really bad. But I can drive alright. Several people online here extended me open hands and said: hey, come check out our ATL school. One even put on a demo for me and let me get in on some drills in a higher-level class. A CLF guy on here offered to help me in my search, but I'd made up my mind before I visited him (No offence, Sean---cool guy:cool: ). Anyways...I don't have any friggin' clue what the senior guys at my school do when we junior classmates aren't around.


I'm sure I don't know you. Your statement above about not knowing what the seniors in your school do is what I'm talking about. How can you possibly make a decision based on an intro class with no real substance of what's being taught?? It'd be like joining the military ( No offense to our fighting men & women ) because you thought the uniforms were cool. That's the smallest margin of a thing.



I have no intention of going to see David Lin. No offense. Don't know anything 'bout Shuai Chao. Don't really care. :) . My whole search was to find out if SD was preparing me "maritally" in a way that was economical, efficient, etc. My find: It was. My Longfist teacher thinks my footwork is horrible, b/c I don't keep my root in my heels enough during stance transitions. He's calling me out on mechanics. I like that. So, on Saturday nights I'll go have him show me how to make stance transitions with better efficiency.


Any MA teacher will call you on that. It's called basics. That's what the majority of CMA schools do for the first year or so... basics. You've got to have them. There's an old addage... you can't build a house without a foundation. If you've been called on your foundation by a teacher of another system, isn't there a bigger question you need to ask yourself about the time & money you've mentioned investing already?



I'm not into collecting styles, per say. I wanna be able to use the stuff I've already invested time/$$ in. I found out I can.

Maybe.



IF that's arrogant, then I'm a friggin' arrogant son of a *****.:D

You're also lacking Mo Duk as well.

Atlanta's not so big & SD has a handful of schools in the area, right? It's not going to take long to word to get around between instructors & schools about your attitude. It might not be long after that until somebody picks up the phone & has a conversation about you to your teacher. If there's nothing satisfactory resolved that way, you may be the one getting paid a visit in class so you can explain yourself & your actions to your teacher. You're a reflection of your teacher & MA'ists talk. It won't take long & many more episodes of "The Mouth Runneth Over" before SD in Atlanta has a rep equal to that of low-rent wanna be's & people who talk too much.

Think about it. Your rep means nothing, but the schools & people who run them.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

bubba why are you so irritated by sw post?

Because he rubbed me the wrong way



you think it impossible that he could slap around a wing chun guy?

Nah... nothing's impossible... however, a little manners goes a long way in telling the story



and i think you are taking him a little to literally. i know when i spar in csc i slap faces to make my opponent aware his guard is low. but im not ***** slapping him lol

Well... then what's the point?



just tapping the cheek or forehead. in glove sparring ill ring your bell hehe but in normal class its just a friendly reminder to guard your face.

What's the difference? If you're trading hands, you're trading hands. Otherwise you're playing pattycake.



i have alos sparred a wing chun guy. he had 5 years in wing chun and joined csc to expand what he had. one day we were sparring and he made a comment about the superiority of his old wing chun stuff. i said go for it...just use that and feel free to ring my bell if you can.

i slapped his ass all over the school. he was very good at the center line strikes and trapping but he couldnt account for my footwork and that made the fight easy for me.

Here we go with the slapping again. If you don't play the game that a person is accustomed to playing, chances are you're coming out on top just by confusing them. Don't mistake that for being better, take it for being different.

BTW... in that 5 years he said he trained... how many hours was that?



to presume someone cant whip up on a wing chun guy is silly. its also silly to think i cant have my ass summarily handed to me by someone better. thats why we train.

I never said that actually.



in my travels i have sparred a mmaist a wing chun guy a kenpo black belt and a 5th level tae kwan do master.

That's great.



it was fun to see the different styles and how they were appiled in that system.

ultimately i like where i am.

That's great.



sw probably did slap the guy around.....but he didnt do it with wing chun..he did it with our style.

And exactly what "style" is it?



and telling him to say some phrase without giving him the translation is just stupid man. sounds like YOUR the one with the issues and maybe YOU should cross hands with an sd or csc guy.

Who says I haven't? Who says I have? Who's making presumptions now?

[Lamassu]

What does "gong sau" mean?

[Shaolin Wookie]

You're also lacking Mo Duk as well. .

I'm also lacking in Chinese comprehension as well:rolleyes: . Care to elaborate? I speak Latin, French, Spanish, English (a little bit). I might take Chinese in grad school, if they'll let me. If you want to sound intelligent, translate it into either Latin, French, Spanish, and English, and we'll all be impressed, but maybe, just maybe, you'll make your point to me?:confused:


Atlanta's not so big & SD has a handful of schools in the area, right? It's not going to take long to word to get around between instructors & schools about your attitude. It might not be long after that until somebody picks up the phone & has a conversation about you to your teacher. If there's nothing satisfactory resolved that way, you may be the one getting paid a visit in class so you can explain yourself & your actions to your teacher. You're a reflection of your teacher & MA'ists talk. It won't take long & many more episodes of "The Mouth Runneth Over" before SD in Atlanta has a rep equal to that of low-rent wanna be's & people who talk too much..

It did, it happened, I had that conversation. I am who I am, and sometimes I'm rude, stubborn, pig-headed and such. Ask my girlfriend, and she'd tack on a couple of more unflattering words.:D (He flirts, he swears, he argues, he works too much, and he doesn't take anything seriously):D ..... I don't always make the right decisions, but I do make decisions, and I form opinions. Live and learn. I'm human......well, at least as human as any other hairless ape.:p

Funny though, I'm on an internet forum to talk to people about martial arts, because I don't know anyone outside of my school who would want to talk MA's at all, under any circumstances. Why the-hell-else would I be on here? BTW, my Master and I look nothing alike.


Think about it. Your rep means nothing, but the schools & people who run them.

Self-respect is more important than rep. I respect myself, and I do my own dirty work, and I work hard at the things I do. If people think I'm an *******, well, they're probably right.

[kungfujunky]

Because he rubbed me the wrong way



Nah... nothing's impossible... however, a little manners goes a long way in telling the story

good point but it could also be your perception of his telling that is off.


Well... then what's the point?

the point is im sure the round was handled respectfully



What's the difference? If you're trading hands, you're trading hands. Otherwise you're playing pattycake.

true but there is trading hands with respect and their is beating a lesser fighter up just because you can



Here we go with the slapping again. If you don't play the game that a person is accustomed to playing, chances are you're coming out on top just by confusing them. Don't mistake that for being better, take it for being different.

so i should fight down to my opponent because he doesnt know what im doing? that is a silly statement my friend



BTW... in that 5 years he said he trained... how many hours was that?

3 days a week he said. not sure his exact training routine.



I never said that actually.

no but you implied that he had to have been a monster to achieve it



That's great.

thanks



That's great.


thanks


And exactly what "style" is it?

depends on who im fighting actually. it can be tiger or crane or ba gua or tai chi(my preferred style) or monkey. still working on mantis but love the pressure point stuff



Who says I haven't? Who says I have? Who's making presumptions now?

so far you have made presumptions and rude comments because you didnt perceive someones post in a way that you liked.

all you have done is criticize and mock. made presumptions about a persons character and claimed he would be called out in his school because you got rubbed the wrong way.

your attitude has come off as extremely rude to me. so i will presume you have not crossed hands with sd folks. if you have please let us know how big of a monster you were THAT day

[The Xia]

Mo Duk is a Cantonese expression for martial ethics. The Mandarin equivalent is Wu De.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm sure I don't know you. Your statement above about not knowing what the seniors in your school do is what I'm talking about. How can you possibly make a decision based on an intro class with no real substance of what's being taught?? It'd be like joining the military ( No offense to our fighting men & women ) because you thought the uniforms were cool. That's the smallest margin of a thing.

Actually, I'd be spending my time in those lower ranks for quite some time. It's a valid comparison, b/c I'm comparing what I do now in the lower ranks, to what I'd be doing for an equal amount of time in the lower ranks elsewhere. Hope that answers your question.



Lovely, but it does you no service when trying to talk to a large audience who don't know you but only have your words, voicing, diction & phrasing to go on.



Not to harp on this subject...as I will no longer address this issue (It bores me, and I bore myself as I adress an issue that bores me so *yawn*), but maybe you shouldn't be so sensitive to things you read on the net?:) If this issue must be resolved by a death match, I feel I must inform you that Knifefighter already has me booked for a best 2 out of 3 death match jamboree, and I will not have much time for any more death matches in the next, well, lifetime.

Oh, and thanks Xia.

[Lamassu]

What does "gong sau" mean?

[The Xia]

Oh, and thanks Xia.
You are welcome.
Lamassu,
Gong Sau is another Cantonese expression. It means "talking hands", another words fighting.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Due to the recent flush of the Is SD Real activity (largely on my part, as I'm suffering from severe boredom at work), let me re-post this issue, a subject in which I have great interest:


Alright, in the interest of making this thread run onto 300 pages ASAP:D , I'm interested to know some of the tales that surround our forms. I'm a literary man, so it's kind of a thing I'm interested in, plus I love Chinese literature....

For instance: Hai Lun Chong=the Monkey King rampaging through the Eastern Sea Dragon's kingdom in Journey to the West.

In the form, concerning animal attidues, etc., you flip around and whirl a lot like a monkey thrashing through a kingdom would, have that cool kneeling stance with a side hand extended and the eyebrow-stick over the shoulder, and that downward strip which hits the ground in a monkey stance in full grip. Although it's not typically considered a monkey form, I do consider it to be one based on its structure. Hell, you're using an eyebrow-height-staff.....and the form refers to the time where he obtained the staff for the first time (while he was squatting in the king's chambers and making general mischief)....

I was sifting through some old SD threads (man, "work" is boring), and found some discussion about translation of SD forms, etc:


Originally Posted by Judge Pen
Lol, no but that term has apparently stuck around. I didn't know about it until that thread actually. The form in question is "Ching Kang Fu Hu Chien" I always called it "Golden Mountain Tiger Trap" (Which seems to be the consensus looking at the various SD websites' translations. Some variations include the SDA site, which has it listed as "Golden Metal Man Tiger Trap" Atlanta's site has it listed: Jin Gang Fu Hu Quan - "Wu Sung Defeats the Tiger"

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&page=82&pp=10

The link to the page where GT says the misnomer was funny and kind of stuck.

The discussion concerned the translation of "Jingang" from Jingang fu hu chien.....and Gene posted a link to a WuSong article, because apparently ATL sometimes calls the form "Wu Song defeats the Tiger."

Quotations from the article: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=237

"In the novel (Water Margin), Wu Song has finished a special mission and passed by a small village (Mount Jinyang) on the way to visit his brother. He reads a notice warning travelers to avoid going out after sunset because of a big, man-eating tiger in the surrounding woods. The villagers are terrified and refuse to leave their homes at night.

For the safety of the people, Wu Song decides to kill the tiger himself. After drinking three bowls of wine, he went in search of the tiger with his staff. When the tiger leaped out at him in the woods the staff broke, and Wu Song grabbed the neck of the tiger. Finally, he killed it with his bare hands. One might also read the battle with a man-eating tiger as a political allegory."

Well, "Jinyang" is pretty much the same flavor as "Jingang", so this would mark a link between this form and the Water Margin. And at the very end of the form, you have that elbow followed by a face rake, neck grab, then the smashing of the face on the knee....kind of imitating grabbing a tiger by the neck and killing it with the knee....which summarily ends up closing the form pretty much, aside from the salute.

Pan Long Bong, from what I gather, is a form that comes from the son of a famous general who used a spear (I don't remember the names...or teh source....if anyone can supply these for me, I'd be veeeeeery appreciative:) ), but became an outlaw when the general was killed. He entered the Shaolin Temple to hone his skills so he could get revenge, a la Masterkiller:cool: , and faced a contraption like a Metal Wolf in one of the chambers, and used his staff to knock out the teeth using the circle/winding motions. Someone in class said there was a Shaw Bros. movie that had a scene like that or something. Any references would be cool....

If any of you guys know some of the tales that surround the forms (in terms of literature), and you post them, I'll PM you a link to real nudie shots of Jessica Simpson......just kiddin'...

Or am I?

[Lamassu]

Thank you Xia. :)

[kwaichang]

What do you mean by this ??

Boy, is my face red.

Some people call those who dont gently tell them that their bull**** is really pudding rude and *******s. No sweat off my ass.

Cant figure out what your trying to say. KC

[BM2]

Bubba, do you really think you can say anything to change their minds?
The worst part is, I think I was like that too at one time :confused:

[kungfujunky]

he isnt trying to change any minds. he thinks he knows exactly how a person acts because of a post he read online.

im not defending anything besides the fact that his posts are presumptious to say the least. and very aggressive.

if he has such a high level of martial ethics then he could have just as easily pmed sw to chat amiably about their difference of opinion.

instead he made threats and called names


wow very grown up.

i dont know you bubba but from your posts i am not impressed. but i certainly am open to the idea that online personas are always a bit different than what a person actually is.

im sure your a great martial artist and very respectful but your posts did not say that. all i saw in sw posts was a guy excited that he had done some research and checked some places out only to find he was where HE wanted to be all along.

just because he was able to slap a guy around does not mean he did it out of disrespect for the person or their art.

[Meat Shake]

What do you mean by this ??

Boy, is my face red.

Some people call those who dont gently tell them that their bull**** is really pudding rude and *******s. No sweat off my ass.

Cant figure out what your trying to say. KC



The first sentence is in regard to wookie saying something about I got told or something along those lines. I dont feel like reading back.
The second is in regards to you getting upset that I call shots as I see them and dont sugar coat things. Thick skin is a good thing to have.
No sweat off my ass means I dont really care if people think Im rude or not.

Why isnt ass censored? Weird.

Anyhow... I dont really care enough to argue anymore.
SD wasnt made for fighting as I learned, and I was trained by both my sifu in san antonio and master schaeffer in austin. I was never really impressed other than by my lack of knowledge.
Like I said many times.... Great for staying in shape, terrible for fighting.
If you took the material taught for just 1 belt and worked on that, you may accomplish something. Trying to learn the entire system will get you nowhere....
But good luck trying, I just hope you never have to use what you have tried to learn against someone who actually knows how to fight.

[Judge Pen]

The first sentence is in regard to wookie saying something about I got told or something along those lines. I dont feel like reading back.
The second is in regards to you getting upset that I call shots as I see them and dont sugar coat things. Thick skin is a good thing to have.
No sweat off my ass means I dont really care if people think Im rude or not.

Why isnt ass censored? Weird.

Anyhow... I dont really care enough to argue anymore.
SD wasnt made for fighting as I learned, and I was trained by both my sifu in san antonio and master schaeffer in austin. I was never really impressed other than by my lack of knowledge.
Like I said many times.... Great for staying in shape, terrible for fighting.
If you took the material taught for just 1 belt and worked on that, you may accomplish something. Trying to learn the entire system will get you nowhere....
But good luck trying, I just hope you never have to use what you have tried to learn against someone who actually knows how to fight.

I have, MS, and I did ok so I can't agree that you can't use it for fighting. I'll agree that most of the time the people in SD don't train in a way that would translate to fighting, but that's an individual problem and not a problem of the style itself. As I said earlier, If I were training for a"fight" then my methods of training what I know of SD would need to change. More drilling, more live work at all ranges--not just the typical SD class and forms work, but all the moves I would need would be in my forms.

Having said that, please don't think that I'm implying any disrespect to SC or your teacher. I haven't encountered anyone in SC, in person, and I would like to see what that is about. I, like SW, have worked out with and visited several other schools--there's a lot of good stuff out there, but for me I enjoy and can use what I'm taught in SD.

[kwaichang]

MS I trained in austin too PM me as to who you are I may know you if you are so inclined I will do the same. KC

[Bubba O'Reilly]

I'm also lacking in Chinese comprehension as well:rolleyes: . Care to elaborate? I speak Latin, French, Spanish, English (a little bit). I might take Chinese in grad school, if they'll let me. If you want to sound intelligent, translate it into either Latin, French, Spanish, and English, and we'll all be impressed, but maybe, just maybe, you'll make your point to me?:confused:

Spanish -- Virtud Marcial

It means in the barest & lowest level ... manners.




Funny though, I'm on an internet forum to talk to people about martial arts, because I don't know anyone outside of my school who would want to talk MA's at all, under any circumstances. Why the-hell-else would I be on here? BTW, my Master and I look nothing alike.

That's fine, but you missed what I said.



Self-respect is more important than rep. I respect myself, and I do my own dirty work, and I work hard at the things I do. If people think I'm an *******, well, they're probably right.

Again... you missed what I said.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

Bubba, do you really think you can say anything to change their minds?
The worst part is, I think I was like that too at one time :confused:

Nah not at all... just pointing out something that's stressed in most CMA schools that apparently they're lacking.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

Because he rubbed me the wrong way



Nah... nothing's impossible... however, a little manners goes a long way in telling the story

good point but it could also be your perception of his telling that is off.

It's possible but I'm doubting it.



Well... then what's the point?

the point is im sure the round was handled respectfully

How so? How's it handled respectfully if he comes in talking about "slapping around" a student of another school with the same training time as him. Do you see any commentary from the other school? Would you be as forgiving of the other school if they came on here talking about "slapping" him around?



What's the difference? If you're trading hands, you're trading hands. Otherwise you're playing pattycake.

true but there is trading hands with respect and their is beating a lesser fighter up just because you can

True, but can it said with certainty that the person was a "lesser fighter" since it wasn't a serious match? Was there consideration given or offered that maybe the other person was sparring down to his level?




Here we go with the slapping again. If you don't play the game that a person is accustomed to playing, chances are you're coming out on top just by confusing them. Don't mistake that for being better, take it for being different.

so i should fight down to my opponent because he doesnt know what im doing? that is a silly statement my friend

Well see here's the difference... it wasn't a fight. It was sparring. Tag... play fighting... nothing serious or on the line. So why should a person who is better or is conceivably better than their play partner go full on if they're just playing?




BTW... in that 5 years he said he trained... how many hours was that?

3 days a week he said. not sure his exact training routine.

Hmmm... begs the addage quality not quantity.




I never said that actually.

no but you implied that he had to have been a monster to achieve it


Yep I did because of his statements and implied of handling a student in the student's school with little or no effort.



And exactly what "style" is it?

depends on who im fighting actually. it can be tiger or crane or ba gua or tai chi(my preferred style) or monkey. still working on mantis but love the pressure point stuff

Hmmm... so you have no set style of fighting that you adapt to any situation. You have to "switch flavors" as it were. How can you switch like that when you have no real background training in any of the flavors?



Who says I haven't? Who says I have? Who's making presumptions now?

so far you have made presumptions and rude comments because you didnt perceive someones post in a way that you liked.

How can being direct & forthright be rude?



all you have done is criticize and mock. made presumptions about a persons character and claimed he would be called out in his school because you got rubbed the wrong way.

Oh trust me... I haven't mocked anything or anybody.



your attitude has come off as extremely rude to me. so i will presume you have not crossed hands with sd folks. if you have please let us know how big of a monster you were THAT day

Presume what you will. Your perrogative. It's too bad you don't have a clue about what I'm talking about though to understand what I'm saying. As far as me being a monster in sparring... far from it. But I do ok. Sometimes I win, sometimes I loose. Most of the time I do what most people who spar as SD does... play.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

he isnt trying to change any minds. he thinks he knows exactly how a person acts because of a post he read online.

You're right. Not trying to change any minds at all. As far as knowing exactly how he acts, I haven't got a clue. However based on what I read & the impression it made...



im not defending anything besides the fact that his posts are presumptious to say the least. and very aggressive.


I'm hardly agressive. Actually I'm quite laid back & non-confrontational in most situations. However, I do not mind hollering off-sides when called for.



if he has such a high level of martial ethics then he could have just as easily pmed sw to chat amiably about their difference of opinion.


True, but if SW understood basic Mo Duk I wouldn't even have this conversation.



instead he made threats and called names


Haven't done it yet to my knowledge, but if you can point it out, I'd be glad to see exactly who I threatened or called names.



wow very grown up.


Nah... I'm a kid at heart with an old body.



i dont know you bubba but from your posts i am not impressed. but i certainly am open to the idea that online personas are always a bit different than what a person actually is.

That's great because honestly I'm not out to impress people. I just saw a sitation that needed something said & so I did.



im sure your a great martial artist and very respectful but your posts did not say that. all i saw in sw posts was a guy excited that he had done some research and checked some places out only to find he was where HE wanted to be all along.

I try to be respectful, but people sometimes confuse things like disrespect with a deserved chewing or rude with forthrightness. All he had to say was he was happy after checking other schools & I would've never shown up. But he didn't so I did.



just because he was able to slap a guy around does not mean he did it out of disrespect for the person or their art.

Ever hear it's not what you say but how you say it?

[MasterKiller]

I think Shaolin Wookie said he's got 2 years in SD, so he's not even a blackbelt yet (probably).

He's just a dumb kid excited about training and hasn't had the time or the experience to really understand anything. Take what he says with a grain of salt.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

I think Shaolin Wookie said he's got 2 years in SD, so he's not even a blackbelt yet (probably).

Yeah I think I saw something about that, but growing up manners were instilled early & in the MA's just as early. Every CMA player I know though has been taught their school's version Mo Duk. Kinda makes you go :confused:, don't it? ;)



He's just a dumb kid excited about training and hasn't had the time or the experience to really understand anything. Take what he says with a grain of salt.

True. Very true.

[ZhuFu]

Does anyone know the name of Grandmaster Sin's TV program on KET? I'm on their website and have searched high and low in their archives but can't find it.

The title of the TV Series was:

"The Karate Television Series"

The book that came with the videos you could order from KET is simply called 'Karate"

Here is the info from the book:

Karate, c/o KET
600 Cooper Drive
Lexington, KY 40502

[ZhuFu]

[QUOTE=ZhuFu;742216]The title of the TV Series was:

I scanned a picture of the book for the Karate Series that came with the video series:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u5/zhufu/SinThekaratebook.png

This was pre-shao-lin Do era

[John Many Jars]

True, but can it said with certainty that the person was a "lesser fighter" since it wasn't a serious match? Was there consideration given or offered that maybe the other person was sparring down to his level?




Well see here's the difference... it wasn't a fight. It was sparring. Tag... play fighting... nothing serious or on the line. So why should a person who is better or is conceivably better than their play partner go full on if they're just playing?


I agree w/ these statements. At our school if you're sparring a lower belt you are supposed to spar down to that persons level. Especially if it's that person's first day. It's a fine balance, at least for me, between not wanting to scare away a perspective student (by going too hard or fast) and still being able to show them that the school has something worthwhile to offer.

IMVHO, when the more experienced person drops down to a less experienced person's level it becomes easier for the more experienced person to eat shots they wouldn't normally eat. The timing is off because the punches are coming in slower, you're evaluating what they're throwing at you to offer tips to make what they're doing more effective or efficient, etc. The problem increases when the new student has already studied MA. You have no idea of there skill level but it's still in your mind not to go too hard.

I have no idea if this is what happened w/ SW and his partner as I wasn't there.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think Shaolin Wookie said he's got 2 years in SD, so he's not even a blackbelt yet (probably).

He's just a dumb kid excited about training and hasn't had the time or the experience to really understand anything. Take what he says with a grain of salt.

Hahaha...........:rolleyes:

I hear that all the time on here. Ya know.....2 years isn't a lot....but it's not nothing. You had to study for those same 2 years to get to where you are right now. You didn't learn anything in those two years? I have a piddling 2 years, yes, and a lifetime of intense athletics.:D I have the cardio of a distance runner (min. 35 miles/week on top of training:D ). I think that helps a little, don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKiller
I think Shaolin Wookie said he's got 2 years in SD, so he's not even a blackbelt yet (probably).

Yeah I think I saw something about that, but growing up manners were instilled early & in the MA's just as early. Every CMA player I know though has been taught their school's version Mo Duk. Kinda makes you go , don't it?

Seriously, Bubba....you don't have a sense of humor, do you? Believe me, I'm polite. But I'm not talking to a person. I'm talking to a troll (Lungushan, is that you?) It is precisely when people start throwing around Dim Mok Du Wu Deus Ex Machina reprobations that I tend to think......oh my god, here comes someone with no sense of humor......"you will address me as sensei, young reprobate"......:rolleyes:

You're on an internet forum. Get over yourself. This isn't quite life and death.

I'm laughing my ass off, b/c this doesn't come down to ethics, morality, maturity, or anything else. You decided to read a post in a certain tone, and then got a little miffed that an SD guy actually used his bogus kung-fu to "slap around" a WC guy with "little effort".:rolleyes: :D Would you have been as miffed had I said my SD proved inferior and a WC guy slapped me silly because I couldn't keep up with him? No, you'd probably say....go check out D. Lin's Shuai Chou school and learn how to really fight............

Well, you already did say that.

Well, I don't know about you, but I've never sparred with little or no effort. Had I used little or no effort, the WC guy would have slapped me around silly.:eek:

What you seem to have a problem with is the manner in which I wrote my post, b/c obviously you got the impression that I think I'm invincible with my pre-blackbelt material, and that I went around laying the smackdown on every tom, ****, and harry in the ATL. Didn't quite go down like that. Guys who know me on here (there's one or two I know of) could quickly say---naw, man, he's good for a browbelt, but that's a bout it. If you want to offer writing advice, go ahead. I'm always open to that (I'm a writer, too....and a painter.....so I'm open to criticism). But the ethics of internet posting?

I scoff at this. Scoff! Scoff!

For specifics, it was sparring. You get hit. He picked the pace and hte level of impact. The guy knew I had 2 years experience (Iso did he-2 years....or did you miss that, too?) I'm laid back. I didn't issue a challenge. He said, use what you know. He didn't say, use my first-day material at WC. I didn't have any. But he said: why don't you join in the sparring, even though you don't have any material? Just use what you know. (wink wink...I slowed down to his pace after 3 minutes, when I realized there was a skill gap, and he kept turning his back and getting swept)......

When we were finished, we shook hands, smiled, said: that was a good match. After class, we talked about MA for 25 minutes. It was cool to go "shopping around," as I realized there were a lot of people very interested in MA, and passionate about their training.

You seem to have the image of a Shaw Bros movie in your head, where I laid out a challenge and took on a school. For Christ's sake, man........:D ......hahahaha.......

He asked me to spar. So I did. I owned. Good day. Story done.

Why don't you just get the **** over it? Or........perhaps it was you I slapped around with little or no effort?:D

Come on, man...........develop a sense of humor.

This issue is finished.

[MasterKiller]

I hear that all the time on here. Ya know.....2 years isn't a lot....but it's not nothing.

It's an associates degree, at best. You know what an associates gets you in the real world? Maybe $2 an hour more than the guy who barely passed high school. :rolleyes:


You had to study for those same 2 years to get to where you are right now. You didn't learn anything in those two years? I've learned enough since then to know after 2 years I didn't know d1ck.


I have a piddling 2 years, yes, and a lifetime of intense athletics.:D I have the cardio of a distance runner (min. 35 miles/week on top of training:D ). I think that helps a little, don't you?. Not really. Running 35 miles a week doesn't have anything to do with martial arts or fighting. Pro fighters don't run 35 miles a week. Most of them don't run 5 miles a week. Being an athelete is great, but unless you were a combat athelete (Judo, boxing, wrestling, etc...), it doesn't give you a bump in the experience category. Sorry, bro.

Your own style doesn't even recognize you as an official student until you reach your black belt.

[brucereiter]

It's an associates degree, at best. You know what an associates gets you in the real world? Maybe $2 an hour more than the guy who barely passed high school. :rolleyes:

I've learned enough since then to know after 2 years I didn't know d1ck.

each time a gain a new level of understanding with my martial arts practice it makes me a beginner all over again ... as you peel away the layers of skill you will always find a way that you can improve.



Not really. Running 35 miles a week doesn't have anything to do with martial arts or fighting. Pro fighters don't run 35 miles a week. Most of them don't run 5 miles a week. Being an athelete is great, but unless you were a combat athelete (Judo, boxing, wrestling, etc...), it doesn't give you a bump in the experience category. Sorry, bro.

true :-) ... having good physical condition is helpful but it does not translate to martial skill or understanding ...



Your own style doesn't even recognize you as an official student until you reach your black belt.
this is in a sense true. you are not really even a beginner until you have reached 1st black. then you should have the tools to start learning martial arts.

that time is about 3 years ... in this time you learn basics. its just most do not take the time to practice the basics they just "learn" them :-)

best,

bruce

[BoulderDawg]

Two years is not a lot of time. Personally I don't think anyone should even be near a black belt in that time period. However at the CSC one can very easily go from white belt to black belt in less than 15 months.

[brucereiter]

[QUOTE=ZhuFu;742216]The title of the TV Series was:

I scanned a picture of the book for the Karate Series that came with the video series:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u5/zhufu/SinThekaratebook.png

This was pre-shao-lin Do era

hi zhufu,

thanks for the picture. does the book talk about tai chi chuan, pakua chang or hsing i chuan? if so would you share what it says?

best,

bruce

[Shaolin Wookie]

:D The WC guy I sparred had 2 years as well, and he was a black belt......hahaha.....:D

Me, I'm waiting 3.:cool:

Ah well, I'm a noob.

Anyone who wants to take issue with me: I am accepting all challenges, so long as they are submitted in writing. But only I can pick Law or Lei....and we're playing Tekken Tag...none of that soft wishy-washy Tekken 4 or 5 crap.

Bring your own beer, beeyotch!!:D

[ZhuFu]

[QUOTE=ZhuFu;742232]

hi zhufu,

thanks for the picture. does the book talk about tai chi chuan, pakua chang or hsing i chuan? if so would you share what it says?

best,

bruce

My pleasure...

I always thought the book was a little odd, being that this was supposed to be kung fu.
In the first chapter it talks about the Samurai Soard, Nunchaku, Bo, Sai, Tonfa, Swriken stars, and Kris with the only mention of a traditional Chinese weapon being the spear. Another oddity is that his name is spelled Sin Kuang The, rather than Sin Kwang The.
There is very little history and background in the book, it does mention Tai Chi and Pa Kua but not much is said (A Shao-lin Do Association Manual, or Chinese Shao-lin Center manual has more info, depending on which empire you belong too).
Its mainly a book of drawings of 2 people going thru Chin Na, Ippons, and Techniques.

[Bubba O'Reilly]

Hahaha...........:rolleyes:

I hear that all the time on here. Ya know.....2 years isn't a lot....but it's not nothing. You had to study for those same 2 years to get to where you are right now. You didn't learn anything in those two years? I have a piddling 2 years, yes, and a lifetime of intense athletics.:D I have the cardio of a distance runner (min. 35 miles/week on top of training:D ). I think that helps a little, don't you?


Nah not really... it just means you can keep a cardio pace with a long distance runner. In many CMA schools two years of training time equals getting a pretty good grip on the basics, not much else.



Seriously, Bubba....you don't have a sense of humor, do you? Believe me, I'm polite. But I'm not talking to a person. I'm talking to a troll (Lungushan, is that you?) It is precisely when people start throwing around Dim Mok Du Wu Deus Ex Machina reprobations that I tend to think......oh my god, here comes someone with no sense of humor......"you will address me as sensei, young reprobate"......:rolleyes:

Actually I have a well developed sense of humor when something's funny. When it's not & in bad taste, I tend to not laugh much.

As to being a troll... hardly.



You're on an internet forum. Get over yourself. This isn't quite life and death.


Sure it's not. Never said it was. Again you missed the point of what I was trying to tell you. But that's ok... it's to be expected I guess.



I'm laughing my ass off, b/c this doesn't come down to ethics, morality, maturity, or anything else. You decided to read a post in a certain tone, and then got a little miffed that an SD guy actually used his bogus kung-fu to "slap around" a WC guy with "little effort".:rolleyes: :D Would you have been as miffed had I said my SD proved inferior and a WC guy slapped me silly because I couldn't keep up with him? No, you'd probably say....go check out D. Lin's Shuai Chou school and learn how to really fight............

Nope, but at least you wouldn't have come on bragging about it. Or if you had people would've probably congratulated you in learning something new. However you came on bragging about "this", saying you "learned all that" in a handful of intro classes. That's what got me miffed.



Well, you already did say that.

Nope didn't say it... suggested you go see him with the same attitude you present here & bring up gong sau so you could experience "the real deal" instead of sparring, but never said out right to go. There's a difference.



Well, I don't know about you, but I've never sparred with little or no effort. Had I used little or no effort, the WC guy would have slapped me around silly.:eek:

Well, from the way you started off, you put it out there as it didn't take much. How were we supposed to know that?



What you seem to have a problem with is the manner in which I wrote my post, b/c obviously you got the impression that I think I'm invincible with my pre-blackbelt material, and that I went around laying the smackdown on every tom, ****, and harry in the ATL. Didn't quite go down like that. Guys who know me on here (there's one or two I know of) could quickly say---naw, man, he's good for a browbelt, but that's a bout it. If you want to offer writing advice, go ahead. I'm always open to that (I'm a writer, too....and a painter.....so I'm open to criticism). But the ethics of internet posting?


Ethics of internet posting are the same ethics you should use daily. Be nice, be polite, don't speak badly about other because it may come back to haunt you, etc... A good up bringing in MA ought to be like a good upbringing at home. You ever hear "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it"?



I scoff at this. Scoff! Scoff!

You can see a doctor about that & probably get a prescription to fix it.



For specifics, it was sparring. You get hit. He picked the pace and hte level of impact. The guy knew I had 2 years experience (Iso did he-2 years....or did you miss that, too?) I'm laid back. I didn't issue a challenge. He said, use what you know. He didn't say, use my first-day material at WC. I didn't have any. But he said: why don't you join in the sparring, even though you don't have any material? Just use what you know. (wink wink...I slowed down to his pace after 3 minutes, when I realized there was a skill gap, and he kept turning his back and getting swept)......

Left out that juicy detail too huh?



When we were finished, we shook hands, smiled, said: that was a good match. After class, we talked about MA for 25 minutes. It was cool to go "shopping around," as I realized there were a lot of people very interested in MA, and passionate about their training.

Well at least you showed good manners in person.



You seem to have the image of a Shaw Bros movie in your head, where I laid out a challenge and took on a school. For Christ's sake, man........:D ......hahahaha.......

Nah... Shaw brothers are over rated.



He asked me to spar. So I did. I owned. Good day. Story done.

You still don't get it, but whatever works for you.



Why don't you just get the **** over it? Or........perhaps it was you I slapped around with little or no effort?:D

Nah... not quite.



Come on, man...........develop a sense of humor.

This issue is finished.

Like I said, my sense of humor is excellent when there's something to enjoy.

[brucereiter]

[QUOTE=shaolindoiscool;742267]

My pleasure...

I always thought the book was a little odd, being that this was supposed to be kung fu.
In the first chapter it talks about the Samurai Soard, Nunchaku, Bo, Sai, Tonfa, Swriken stars, and Kris with the only mention of a traditional Chinese weapon being the spear. Another oddity is that his name is spelled Sin Kuang The, rather than Sin Kwang The.
There is very little history and background in the book, it does mention Tai Chi and Pa Kua but not much is said (A Shao-lin Do Association Manual, or Chinese Shao-lin Center manual has more info, depending on which empire you belong too).
Its mainly a book of drawings of 2 people going thru Chin Na, Ippons, and Techniques.

thanks for the info ... :-)

[kwaichang]

Why is it that todays NEW martial artist have little or no regard for protocol and Manners ??? This is a trend I have noticed that has been around since the early 2000's. I have seen it on this forum and even in the schools themselves. WHATS WITH THAT /// ??? KC

[Judge Pen]

Every CMA player I know though has been taught their school's version Mo Duk.

Maybe, but everyone seems to forget their manners on an internet forum. And without being able to read tone and body-language, its easy to misconstrue things that are said. Point in fact, I thought you were being a bit to harsh on your commentary to SW, but since you've explained your position, perhaps I just misunderstood you.

As for SW's experiences, at least he's out there checking out other styles. All too often SD people are accused of keeping their heads in the sand. He doesn't and umbridge is taken in the way he described a friendly sparring encounter. Maybe his experience with the WC player isn't an accurate translation into a real world fight, maybe the guy was being nice, maybe the guy was trying real hard; who knows? It's not inconceivable that SD can train someone like SW to be capable in a friendly sparring match against one of another style.

I guarantee this. If SW has his rear handed to him in this friendly match, there will be some who say (and many more who think but remain silent) that its another piece of proof on how shoddy SD is.

I may have put some of the things that SW said in a different way, but I give him credit for putting himself out there.

Bubba, it seems that you have some perspective--what can you tell us about your background (while preserving your anonymity of course). A little background information on your training always helps us understand your perspective.

[Lamassu]

From what I could tell after reading this whole thread, I'd say there always BEEN a complete lack of manners (at least directed towards SD). I've just assumed that's how things are run here on this forum. Smack talking K1/WWE style: "Let me tell you something BROTHER!!!" *arrrgghhh* *grrrrrrrrr* *snort* Me heep big martial artist, you wimpy SD student! :p

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's always seemed strange to me, that although MMA trolls like KF, etc., talk down on CMA, they've rarely talked down to me--SD or no SD. Sometimes, but not that much when I consider it truthfully. Oftentimes, it's b/c I do raise a stupid point. But CMA guys do it all the time (talk down to each other, that is, rather than debating issues and points/counterpoints....it's always "I have this many years under this teacher, in this style, and who are you? How long you train? 2 years? What a child......a mere kid......[Please.....leave your lineages and ages at the door.....we're all MA's, beginners and pros, and we're here to talk MA....not measure our dongs....)....and they love to back their semantic nitpicking up with quotes from online dictionaries!!! Oh, the horror!! The horror!!!:p Then they spout Wu De, and such, because they think that when you voice an opinion, it ought to be censored, and put up for censure.:rolleyes: b/c obviously a newb has no genuine insight.....he's an uneducated little ***** with a massive ego complex.....ah...who's being presumptious and egotistical? Guess we have differing opinions.....and I never was much for moral authority:p . **** the Man!

The MMA guys only care--put up or shut up. In MMA, a kid w/ 2 quality years can sometimes kick the living crap out of a twenty year keyboard vet.....not to mention in CMA....

Even skeptics (amongst whom I might count myself) like RD and Xia are usually willing to have a decent conversation, as peers, and they don't hold things over your head with a "holier than thou" mentality. They'll talk with you, form opinions, and live and learn, for the most part, and occasionally post random nonsense about scam artist chicks they meet on the net (RD, that is).

And if I crack a joke, they might laugh. It might be an racy joke........but we're not in church, man! And I don't think there are a bunch of little old ladies posting here! Weeeellll....that might be a stretch.

Not to mention this dude has about as many posts as he's taken to quibble over idle clishmaclaver like it's his MO........:rolleyes: .......and I'm his object of......well......obsession.....

10 posts, just for me? I'm blushing.......

Quote: "I've been lingering for some time"...........hahahahaha.........jeeez....I think I see him "lingering" outside my window right now......

Can anyone say troll?

[Flaca]

And if I crack a joke, they might laugh. It might be an racy joke........but we're not in church, man! And I don't think there are a bunch of little old ladies posting here! Weeeellll....that might be a stretch.


Just me. :)

[kwaichang]

I have posted a number of times most recently in a discussion with SM and he was somewhat disrespectful to those he "talks" with. Not just me I dont really care I just try to look at the source and go from there . However I have noticed a blanket disrespect over all , even though we can all learn from each other. It seems to me that the MMA / Cross trining MA groups are the worst. Why is that ??? Is it really only about fighting ?? Of course those who are into fighting slander those who want more from what they do. I was always taught to respect other MA no matter the rankl but to show respect to those above me in rank. I too have fallen into trhe disrespect trap with JP to name one and now we get along. I think haha. Well I think I have been called out by 2-3 guys on this forum not directly mind you but sort of. Well no big deal. Its only words. But I have to wonder what happened to those who feel like they are the know all and tell all to be such asses. well I awaiot your comments and , off the subject but SM you did not pm me as to who you might be are you afraid I might know you are since I too trained in Austin ???? KC
OOPs I meant Meats shake not Shake meat

[Shaolin Wookie]

Thought you might have been talking about me....hehehe.....:)

I think respect works two ways. I'm into respect by default, so long as it's mutual. If it's demanded, mutual respect is not there (it's more emollument, than anything)......and I'm the kind of guy that'll walk off and pretty much disregard anything that person has to say, b/c I lose interest due to the attitude. If I had walked into an SD school, and the master took one look at me, and said: "Give me respect, because I've earned it....." Well, he may have earned it from others, but certainly not by demanding it by rank, etc....and he wouldn't earn it from me by demanding it. My teacher treated me with respect in our first interaction. He has so ever since. I respect the hell out of him, because he even tolerates some of the more.......unorthodox amongst his students (thinking of a good word for myself....:D .....)

I tutored students in English during college. I never held my expertise over anyone's head. I recognized I had a service someone needed, and I respected them for coming to me for help in order to improve themselves. It wasn't---give me money, now bow before the superior might of this almighty intellect!!!! They paid me for their time. I'd like to think I paid them for their time (just with a different currency;) ). Something I think I needed drilled home by KC and JP when I ranted on the subject of GM The' a while back.

It's a mutual thing. Not, I don't respect you yet, but you should respect me now. More like.....I know something you might not, I'm sure you know something I don't, so let's share......

Always been my approach to this board....except where we're debating religion and UFO's, of course....:D

[NastyHaggis]

Somebody mentioned it being possible to get a black belt at a CSC center in 15 months. That seems really quick. I can't imagine it taking me personally (and that's just me) less than 3 years at our school (Mullins) to get to black sash. Mathematically it would be possible to do it in 2 1/2 years, but you'd have to really be training daily and really know your stuff. That's just me, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, it just seems really quick for a student to mature that quickly.

Even in ITA TaeKwonDo it takes a minimum of two years mathematically.

By the way, anyone coming to Golden Leopard 3 & 4 this weekend?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Somebody mentioned it being possible to get a black belt at a CSC center in 15 months. That seems really quick. I can't imagine it taking me personally (and that's just me) less than 3 years at our school (Mullins) to get to black sash. Mathematically it would be possible to do it in 2 1/2 years, but you'd have to really be training daily and really know your stuff. That's just me, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, it just seems really quick for a student to mature that quickly.


It depends on the level/frequency of practice. If I were to practice 4 times as much as the guy who does it in 3-4 years, with better focus, and greater intensity, more frequency, I do honestly believe I'd yield far better results. Seems common sense to me. It's body memory and body mechanics, general understanding, and everything else that goes into it----which is all centers on focus....which is reflected in the frequency of practice. The guy who does it lackadaisically in 3-4, or with "regular" committment in that time period........he'll have material for longer, so it may seem familiar, but he'll have diluted results, achieved with less intensity.

I'm not saying its the best thing to do, but I think it is.......I'm allowed to attend lower belt classes in addition to my brownbelt ones (for free). I do that combination generally 3 times a week (2, if I'm working more), combining the two (usually a 3 hour period of classtime, which is really friggin' cool:cool: lots of workout/forms/apps/basics/sparring/general horsing around when nobodys looking:o )....and I have access to it on two other days as well....though I use my Saturdays right now to do Longfist. Mix classtime with regular practice at home on days when i can't make it....(solo is just as important as classwork, I find).....and you can progress "faster" than "regular" students. Just like in college--I progressed faster by hitting the books harder, tacking down more outside resources, etc. You could say, "yeah, maybe you were just busier....it didn't mean you learned anything more, per say....".........but I find that this is often just a cop out for mediocre committment. An excuse tossed out derisively by people upset with the curve breaker (one of the many roles I played in college, when I wasn't pretending to be Superman:o :D ).


Lots of CMA guys say we learn to much in too little time. As a student/educator, I also think there's a danger in learning too little in too great a length of time.

In CMA, and on this board, people tend to take self-assurance and pride in one's achievements as something negative. But I ask--if you're not proud of what you're doing, why are you doing it?

If you have no pride, you have nothing. Why do Western virtues have to be so divorced from Eastern martial arts? Blend Eastern and Western mindsets, and I think you get a beautiful brainchild. Self assurance without self-righteous pomp.

[BoulderDawg]

Somebody mentioned it being possible to get a black belt at a CSC center in 15 months. That seems really quick.

It's extremely easy. Many people can get their brown belt in 3 months or less. Which in my opinion is not near enough time to learn the basics...but then what do I know. Then all of the brown belt long forms (I believe there are 15 total) are taught in a year(usually one, sometimes two forms a month).

As mentioned the premise being that you don't really become a student until you are a black belt.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's extremely easy. Many people can get their brown belt in 3 months or less. Which in my opinion is not near enough time to learn the basics...but then what do I know. Then all of the brown belt long forms (I believe there are 15 total) are taught in a year(usually one, sometimes two forms a month).

As mentioned the premise being that you don't really become a student until you are a black belt.

3 months? If material is taught on schedule, and you test the minute you get your last bit.....I don't even think you could advance that quick, could you?

[BoulderDawg]

In our school there is no set schedule for lower belt material. Usually the master will just say "Break down into your learning groups". Then you are soon joined by a black belt who says "What do you guys need to work on".......:D

Let me just back up and say getting your 3rd brown is fairly difficult for someone who doesn't have access to a brown/black belt 24/7 (such as a spouse or parent). But it can be done and, to be honest, I've ever seen anyone fail a test. So, in theory, you could probably take a test every week and be a brown belt in a month.

[John Many Jars]

Belt levels below brown (CSC western states) basically test when they've memorized their material. So conceivably it could take as little as 4 days. I've never heard of this happening but it's possible. Once they're in brown then they follow a schedule of testing.

It took me about 17 months to get to black. Of course, it will have taken me 4 yrs., if I test next year or 5 if I hold off again, to go from 1st to 2nd.

*edit*

you beat me to it

[Meat Shake]

I have to admit....I know next-to-nothing about shuai chiao.......but if, say, I was a fool, and I decided not to check out D. Lin's shuai chiao school, would you pity me?

Actually I would...
Seriously... Please do yourself a favor and at least go sit in on one class.
You wont want to leave.
...
Unless it hurts more than youd like.
Fantastic stuff though.

[Judge Pen]

Somebody mentioned it being possible to get a black belt at a CSC center in 15 months. That seems really quick. I can't imagine it taking me personally (and that's just me) less than 3 years at our school (Mullins) to get to black sash. Mathematically it would be possible to do it in 2 1/2 years, but you'd have to really be training daily and really know your stuff. That's just me, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, it just seems really quick for a student to mature that quickly.

Even in ITA TaeKwonDo it takes a minimum of two years mathematically.

By the way, anyone coming to Golden Leopard 3 & 4 this weekend?

It took me just shy of three, but that was just being able to regurgitate the forms. I was probably in the system for 4 or 5 years before I felt comfortable "knowing" my lower rank material (not just being able to perform a form but apply the technique and undertand the different principles involved.)

I'll see you Saturday.

"It's extremely easy. Many people can get their brown belt in 3 months or less. Which in my opinion is not near enough time to learn the basics...but then what do I know. Then all of the brown belt long forms (I believe there are 15 total) are taught in a year(usually one, sometimes two forms a month)."

Maybe, but in my experience 3 months is probably too fast to get a yellow sash. That's only 10 short form (similar to abbreviated tam tui) and 10 sparring techniques (contrived drills used to aid one in applying short form in a sparring situation). In honesty it should be at least 6 months at that level, but, in a commercial setting, most people would burn out.

No disrespect to the CSC, but 15 months is way too fast imo.

JMJ, I waited 10 years to test to 2nd. :p I had all the material, but I took some time off in school and I wanted to really know the stuff [I]before[I] I tested again.

[ZhuFu]

In our school there is no set schedule for lower belt material. Usually the master will just say "Break down into your learning groups". Then you are soon joined by a black belt who says "What do you guys need to work on".......:D

Let me just back up and say getting your 3rd brown is fairly difficult for someone who doesn't have access to a brown/black belt 24/7 (such as a spouse or parent). But it can be done and, to be honest, I've ever seen anyone fail a test. So, in theory, you could probably take a test every week and be a brown belt in a month.

It's been more shocking than most realise:
There wasn't a set schedule there for black belts either at one time (although it was written on paper), it was all about who snuggled up. (Until the SDA masters complained), One associate master there went from 4th-5th black in 10 months.
The instructor in Vegas and the one in LA (current 5ths) didn't have their time in either, but they went to all the GMT seminars which gave them their ticket.

[Baqualin]

Hey JP & KC
How are the babies doing.....KC you never posted a picture?

KC & 9th Drunk do you all know your schedule for Meteor Fist yet....lets get together at least one night:D
BQ

[kungfujunky]

hey bq we should chat again soon!

as for the csc testing. i agree it seems fast. and you can tell in the way some people do their stuff.

but i HAVE seen people not pass. on more than one occasion. so dont take boulderdawgs assumption that you can test just to test.

also to note. in sd currently you have more forms on your curriculum per belt level. csc is adjusting their curriculum to match but it will probably take a couple years to get there.

and also. gmt signed off on csc's way of doing things. so why have issue with it? the grandmaster ok'ed it.

honestly i dont look at rank. if a person can handle themselves in sparring with respect and skill then they have taken the time to learn what they have been taught. if they cant then they have missed some things along the way.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;742387]It depends on the level/frequency of practice. If I were to practice 4 times as much as the guy who does it in 3-4 years, with better focus, and greater intensity, more frequency, I do honestly believe I'd yield far better results. Seems common sense to me. It's body memory and body mechanics, general understanding, and everything else that goes into it----which is all centers on focus....which is reflected in the frequency of practice. The guy who does it lackadaisically in 3-4, or with "regular" committment in that time period........he'll have material for longer, so it may seem familiar, but he'll have diluted results, achieved with less intensity.

Doesn't make you ready to receive a blk. belt in 15 mo.'s, only makes you really good when it is time to test for it.:)

[Leto]

3 months? If material is taught on schedule, and you test the minute you get your last bit.....I don't even think you could advance that quick, could you?

I was in the CSC system. I started in mid January and was ready to test to 3rd brown by the end of March. I had to wait until April when the Soards came down for their yearly visit, though. It was actually nice to spend a little time just reviewing. (no one forced me to test on this schedule, but I was hungry for as much new material as I could process at that time.). To be fair, I had around ten years of experience in martial arts before I started, so maybe that made it easier to memorize stuff. However, five years later I am just starting to look back and reinterpret the lower belt and brown belt forms, and really investigate their uses. I got to a point where I felt like I had enough material for a long while, and decided to become a perverbial mountain hermit, to refine myself and my art. Someday soon I might come down from the mountain and see how things look again.

In the CSC, at least when I was there a few years ago, it was very possible to get to brown in three months, or less. You'd need to attend every class and be shown something new every class, and memorize everything pretty much the first time it was shown to you.

[MasterKiller]

How many ranks are we talking here?

White to Yellow
Yellow to Blue
Blue to Green
Green to Brown

?

You mean to say you guys are racking up 4 ranks in 3 months???!?

And that includes


Short Kata 1-30
One Step Sparring 1-9
Bo Techniques (4 spins)
Hand to Hand Techniques
Numchaku Techniques 1-12
4-8 Bo
Sparring Techniques 1-20
Big Bird Spreads its Wings
Fist of the Lo Han
Short Stick of the Northern Beggar
Four Door Way Break
Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave


5 long forms, plus a sh1t load of smaller forms...in 3 months?

[Baqualin]

How many ranks are we talking here?

White to Yellow
Yellow to Blue
Blue to Green
Green to Brown

?

You mean to say you guys are racking up 4 ranks in 3 months???!?

And that includes


Short Kata 1-30
One Step Sparring 1-9
Bo Techniques (4 spins)
Hand to Hand Techniques
Numchaku Techniques 1-12
4-8 Bo
Sparring Techniques 1-20
Big Bird Spreads its Wings
Fist of the Lo Han
Short Stick of the Northern Beggar
Four Door Way Break
Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave


5 long forms, plus a sh1t load of smaller forms...in 3 months?

MK Hopefully their talking about going from green to 3 brown:confused:

[Judge Pen]

How many ranks are we talking here?

White to Yellow
Yellow to Blue
Blue to Green
Green to Brown

?

You mean to say you guys are racking up 4 ranks in 3 months???!?

And that includes


Short Kata 1-30
One Step Sparring 1-9
Bo Techniques (4 spins)
Hand to Hand Techniques
Numchaku Techniques 1-12
4-8 Bo
Sparring Techniques 1-20
Big Bird Spreads its Wings
Fist of the Lo Han
Short Stick of the Northern Beggar
Four Door Way Break
Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave


5 long forms, plus a sh1t load of smaller forms...in 3 months?

If that's what they are saying, then it is waaaaay tooooo fast in my humble opinion. Even if you could remember it the "first time" you were shown, you need to let this stuff settle in and work only on that material for an extended period of time to really get a feel for it. This is crock pot cooking, not frying! If this is true, then I think this is one of the reasons our stuff is criticized and why it looks like ass on the internet!

[Leto]

MK, yes, all that stuff in 3 months. from white to brown. The test is only based on memorization of material, and even then they give help sometimes. Another reason I decided to take a break from it. While I had everything memorized and could perform it quite well, there was very little drilling of applications from the form, or "breaking it down". Knowing how to use the material is not a part of any test. And I saw too many people test who barely had it memorized, couldn't perform the techniques properly, and still pass. The only way to fail a test was to refuse to even try to do the techniques. Too many brown belts barely knew their material, and were relearning the short forms during the warm up of brown belt class. Too many black belts barely remember their brown belt forms, and forget things. It's sad when the brown belts who just learned their form are showing a black belt how to do it because he forgot, and hasn't practiced it in a year (I've seen this happen more than once). I know all this doesn't sound good, and I'm not trying to make people think that there's no merit to the material or the system, because there is. Every school is run a little differently, it's really a "get out of it what you put into it" thing. I put in effort almost every waking moment to working on my material, in one form or another, for about three years (That's not an exaggeration). I now have a base of material which has great depth of application, which I have been discovering more being on my own than I had the opportunity to being at the school where things had to be conducted in a certain way. It seems kind of sad, but even this type of school has its purpose for some people. It's sort of like a library. If you don't know how to read yet, a library doesn't do you much good, because you can really only appreciate the pictures in the books. But when you know how to read, and are already a student of learning, the library is an amazing place where you can find out about almost anything you want. You need a method to help you understand how to apply the knowledge in all those books, the library itself can't do that.
From my experience, CSC doesn't have that method, you'd need to pick it up somewhere else. maybe it gets introduced after many years of staying there...like only the trusted disciples who have proved themselves loyal get initiated into the "real" learning...but in my opinion that should be the foundation for everyone, not the "advanced" material for private classes. But I am thankful that I was able to see so many different forms and styles in my short time there.

[Leto]

It's amazing you guys had no idea that this is how it was. SD in the east must be very different. In my original style, there would be mandatory six months in between testing (there weren't quite as many ranks, but still, it took at least four or five years to get to first black...and some people consider that way too fast!) It means more when you've put more time into it. Sometimes this sort of system feels like it's holding you back, when you feel you have learned your stuff and can do it in your sleep, and want to learn something new. I think a balance is needed...not to hold someone back who has the ability to move on, but not to allow someone to pass by who doesn't have a firm grasp of the material. Really, I wish we could do away with the whole "rank" thing, and teach based on individual needs and abilities. Of course, this is hard to do with a large group of students at once.

[brucereiter]

How many ranks are we talking here?

White to Yellow
Yellow to Blue
Blue to Green
Green to Brown

?

You mean to say you guys are racking up 4 ranks in 3 months???!?

And that includes


Short Kata 1-30
One Step Sparring 1-9
Bo Techniques (4 spins)
Hand to Hand Techniques
Numchaku Techniques 1-12
4-8 Bo
Sparring Techniques 1-20
Big Bird Spreads its Wings
Fist of the Lo Han
Short Stick of the Northern Beggar
Four Door Way Break
Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave


5 long forms, plus a sh1t load of smaller forms...in 3 months?

i dont know about the "external" program but below is the atl internal program.

Level One: Requirement
Yang 64 Tai Chi Chuan
49 Postures-I Chin Ching
Gold Sash Two Sections of Yang 64
Blue Sash Four Sections of Yang 64
Green Sash Entire Yang 64 Form

Level Two: 1st, 2nd, 3rd Brown to 1st Black Sash Time Line / Requirement
Classical Pa Kua Chang (Sections 1-4) 3 Months
Classical Pa Kua Chang (Sections 5-8) 4 Months
Chen 18 Move Modified Form 2 Months
Ho Tien Chi Breathing 2 Months
Yin Dagger 2 Months
Yang Dagger 2 Months
Yeh Fay Spa Kwan 2 Months


all of the above material is needed to test for 1st Black Sash in the ga csc.
it takes a minimum of 23 months. most people take 2 1/2 - 3 years to first black.

Level Three: 1 Black to 2 Black Sash Time Line
Hsing-I Five Roads 2 Months
Hsing-I Linkage Form 2 Months
Tai Chi 64 Appl & Push Hands – 1/2 1 Month
Five Animal Dead Training 3 Months
Hsing-I Animals 1-6 2 Months
Five Animal Live Training 3 Months
Hsing-I Animals 7-12 2 Months
Tai Chi 64 Appl & Push Hands (2/2) 1 Month
Tai Chi Sword 18 move Form 2 Months
Tai Chi 24 Combination Form 3 Months

it take a minimum of 22 months from first to 2nd black sash.

(i reached 2nd degree black sash rank
earned after several year of practice
(aproximately 4000 hours between
aug 8, 1997 and september 9 2005, about 8 years at a minimum of 500 hours per year)

i might test for 3rd black in september 07 as a now have all of the material ... :-)

the key is a organized practice schedule :-)
internal arts practice schedule 2007 each day is a minimum of 1 hour and often 4 hours, not including time in class ...

Mon
I chin ching #1-12
yang 64 tai chi chuan
24 tai chi chuan
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
yang 38 broad sword
pakua original + 8 animal

Tue
I chin ching #13-18
yang 64 tai chi chuan
chen 18
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
chen tai chi 32 straight sword
hsing-I 5 roads/linkage/12 animals

Wed
I chin ching #19-27
yang 64 tai chi chuan
5 animal dead/live
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
18 sword
pakua original + 8 animal

Thu
I chin ching #28-33
yang 64 tai chi chuan
yueh fei spa kwan
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
chen iron fan
hsing-I 5 roads/linkage/12 animals

Fri
I chin ching #34-41
yang 64 tai chi chuan
ho tien chi breathing
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
yin yang dagger
pakua original + 8 animal

Sat
I chin ching #42-49
yang 64 tai chi chuan
yang 38 broad sword
chen 83 tai chi chuan xin jia
yueh fei spa kwan
hsing-I 5 roads/linkage/12 animals
ho tien chi breathing/shein tien chi

best,

bruce

[KungFu Student]

I agree. Three months is entirely too short of a time for someone to understand all that material. It has taken me over a year to get to third brown, and that is going to class 5 to 6 days a week, and practicing at home. We have a minimum of three months between belt tests from white to brown, then six months for 3rd-1st brown, and 2 years up at black. They have in the past reduced the time somewhat, but in unusual situations. It is sad to think that they place more importance on the color of their belt then the quality of their skill. But I am sure that the CSC does not corner the market on this practice.

[ZhuFu]

If this is true, then I think this is one of the reasons our stuff is criticized and why it looks like ass on the internet!

It all boils down to people. There are lots of instructors and since they are all human as well, they are subject to different standards than others, as well as to all the other problems humans have. A question comes to mind, which SD student would be well to represent the art? Or how about which instructor?
I have seen tests where the entire panel did not pass the student, and the head master on the test passed them any way to the shock of the panel. When I asked, they told me "He should know he did poorly and he will most likely quit anyway".. From my perception of the csc-west is that test fee's outweigh what it done on a test in many cases; however this is not all the csc's, its really dependent on what instructor you talk too.
I heard a rumor once that a person went from White to 3rd Brown in 3 weeks in Denver. But since it was a rumor I take it with a grain of salt as they say.
When this kind of stuff is said it makes the entire art look bad, personally I think that its really down to the individual instructors more than the art in how it is represented

[BM2]

I actually laughed when I read how fast you could get your brown belt. I think about 3 months is quick enough for your first belt.
What others do does not effect me in the least. Also we may take ourselves too seriously at times. It seems to be more important how many stripes or diamonds we have on our belts and the attention from others that it receives that is important.
I saw my bjj instructor cry when he got his black belt. I wonder if any 15 month bb cried when he received his bb but he had about ten years in it too.
It took me a little over three years to get my SD bb and that was when there were only the Golden Tiger, sai and sword for each degree of brown. My instructor just thought it wasn't right to have a bb before at least three years.

[NastyHaggis]

Testing fees...yikes. When I managed a TaeKwonDo school back in the day we had to do that to keep the doors open. However, one of the reasons I quit was because I saw WAY too many people testing when they shouldn't have, and were still passed. There was just too much dependence on the money coming in from testings, and the owner/instructors weren't being greedy, they literally needed that money to keep the doors open.

Thankfully, we don't have testing fees at our school, and I really think that takes the emphasis off of the whole "hurry up and test" thing.

On a side note, after 8 years of marriage, our first baby is due on the 28th! Yippee! I guess I'll be doing tai chi with the child in one of those little backpack baby carriers. It'll make me go REALLY slow.

[BoulderDawg]

Testing fees are a big problem. I don't believe there should be a fee to test. This would alleviate pressure on everyone.

Also one thing that bothered me as a lower belt was the constant pressure by one of the Masters to test:

"Why haven't you tested yet?'

"We need to sign you up for testing?"

Here's the clipboard put your name on it".........

They know as well as I that a large percentage of students drop out after several months. This pressure gives the apperance they are trying to squeeze every penny out of you before you quit.

[kwaichang]

Hey Nasty, when I was in Austin I taught the Mantis class with my son strapped to my chest , he loved it he is 2 now and knows his snake, Leopard and Mantis hand positions along with dragon fist and Tiger Hand. It is great you will love it. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

MK, yes, all that stuff in 3 months. from white to brown. The test is only based on memorization of material, and even then they give help sometimes. Another reason I decided to take a break from it. While I had everything memorized and could perform it quite well, there was very little drilling of applications from the form, or "breaking it down".

Had that same issue, but I found people in the school and school system who had the drive that I did, and have greatly benefited from this. SDiscool and Crushingfist---you'll see me turn up intermittently....as my schedule has mellowed out into something that approaches "sanity".:D


Knowing how to use the material is not a part of any test.

Ah, but it is a test of yourself and your dedication. If you're willing to look and pose the questions, there are answers. I've seen this happen firsthand of late. Pickin' up apps left and right, and "discovering" (they're already there) new ones.....:D I just had to ask the right people....i.e. the people in it for the same reasons I am. I can't ask a student in it for PT the apps for every form. He or she might never have cared to learn and retain that information. Obviously, I just have to ask the right people. The people I look at and say.......****.....that dude's on another level. That's where I want to get to. Sure enough, those are the guys that clean up in sparring.

It's sort of like a library. If you don't know how to read yet, a library doesn't do you much good, because you can really only appreciate the pictures in the books. But when you know how to read, and are already a student of learning, the library is an amazing place where you can find out about almost anything you want. You need a method to help you understand how to apply the knowledge in all those books, the library itself can't do that.

This is the best metaphor for SD training that I have ever come across. Again, not the best way to train all students, but the best way for the right kinds of students.

From my experience, CSC doesn't have that method, you'd need to pick it up somewhere else.

Thought so too, recently. Finding out I was wrong. I've learned that I just have to ask more questions.;) I think for a while I was a little embarassed to ask questions, b/c I didn't want to make it look like the teacher glossed something over that was really important. But if they do, you just have to question step-by-step, and the answer will be there. In short, you have to be a bit of a pest.....hey, can you show me this? Hey, what about that? Are we there yet?

Still, it does do a world of good to look around a bit.....at least, it did for me.



Cool, man. Where'd you train, BTW?

[Shaolin Wookie]

But I am sure that the CSC does not corner the market on this practice.

I can tell you firsthand, from my recent travels, that I know this to be true. You'd be surprised how many "traditional schools" corner that market.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I saw my bjj instructor cry when he got his black belt. I wonder if any 15 month bb cried when he received his bb but he had about ten years in it too.
.

That's because there's no crying in kung fu........:cool: :D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Testing fees are a big problem. I don't believe there should be a fee to test. This would alleviate pressure on everyone.

Also one thing that bothered me as a lower belt was the constant pressure by one of the Masters to test:

"Why haven't you tested yet?'

"We need to sign you up for testing?"

Here's the clipboard put your name on it".........

They know as well as I that a large percentage of students drop out after several months. This pressure gives the apperance they are trying to squeeze every penny out of you before you quit.


Wow, I've never really seen that kind of pressure. There is a peer pressure....though.....kind of like---hey man, you're good enough to jump up to the next level.....why you wanna review for that long? From non-instructors, that is. Some instructors take pride in their students, which is a good thing. It might sway their judgment, though, to push them towards advancement. Although I loathe the testing fees as well, as I'm not rich, I've never once gotten the impression that I'm being screwed over by the business side of MA....although i did get that from the BJJ school I attended (still getting calls from them every three days, despite the fact I keep telling them I'm not interested......what's with that?), and the WC school. The others were really laid back---they put out their wares, said: "Look around, see if this is a place for you. If not, good luck." When I signed up with CSC, that's the pitch I got. They took pride in what they did on a daily basis, put it out for public review, and basically left the decision up to you without sales pitches every class session.

But since I'm not 13, peer pressure means **** to me.:D I feel I'm making significant progress in my studies right now, after this long period of stasis that put me into a funk. I'm really learning how to move in my forms, and put 'em to work. If you've ever gotten that feeling, you might know what I'm talking about.:cool:

[brucereiter]

In short, you have to be a bit of a pest.....hey, can you show me this? Hey, what about that? Are we there yet?

true true! sr master gary makes fun of me because i ask and have always asked a lot of questions lol but after a while i think he thought it was good because he can see improvement in my skills and i have learned to ask questions based on where i am at in my training. "ask a big question, get a big answer" :-)

one thing to remember when asking questions is to ask questions related to what you are already at in your training ...

best,

bruce

[B-Rad]

What do you guys think of the belt system? Do you find it a pain, or do you feel it helps your training in any way? Or do you just not care one way or the other? :p

[brucereiter]

What do you guys think of the belt system? Do you find it a pain, or do you feel it helps your training in any way? Or do you just not care one way or the other? :p

hi b-rad,

i think the rank system is good, but just because you have attained a certain rank does not mean you have skill beyond a basic memory of how to perform the material. i think it is important for each student to find which part of the system they want to become an expert in and focus on that while still "rounding" out your martial education by learning all the system has to offer.
i dont think it helps or hurts ... i look at rank as a organizational tool.

how do you feel about belt ranking systems b-rad?

best,

bruce

[Leto]

The rank system is a good logical idea for a large group of students studying an ordered curriculum. It's just a way to tell where everyone is at in their studies. Businesses have made it into a way to get extra cash, and for people who know nothing about martial arts, it's become the focus, unfortunately.
It really has nothing to do with training. You can train just as hard without anyone telling you you are a black belt, or any other color. I find it difficult to talk about this to people who don't know anything about martial arts, so I avoid it. I hate when I am asked "what belt" I have, so in that respect I wish such a system had never been invented so people wouldn't keep asking such inane questions. *lol*

When I am teaching, I will not have any ranks, as I find they are just a distraction from what's real. But I don't plan on trying to run a strip-mall martial arts business, either. More like a mountain/forest retreat. You can pay for your training with labor in the garden, chopping wood, and carrying water. ;)

[MasterKiller]

OK...JP...KC...MK...WS here's something new to look at.:cool:

Paste this link in your browser:eek:

www.quasi-modo.net/Li_Po_Sui.html

Have Fun
BQ

Willowsword posted this a year or so ago. It is my contention, based on these photos, that this is the same guy as the guy in the Su Kong pictures. I think some other SD folks agreed.

[Baqualin]

Willowsword posted this a year or so ago. It is my contention, based on these photos, that this is the same guy as the guy in the Su Kong pictures. I think some other SD folks agreed.

Not me and Su Kong passed on in 1922....makes no sense to use this guy, he has to much publicity surrounding him......... GMS is smarter than that...that I know! Anyway the answer is in the link...someone who cares just needs to contact the Archeologist listed.
BQ

[MasterKiller]

Not me and Su Kong passed on in 1922 Where is his tombstone?

[Judge Pen]

Willowsword posted this a year or so ago. It is my contention, based on these photos, that this is the same guy as the guy in the Su Kong pictures. I think some other SD folks agreed.

Actually I posted that link since I found it looking for outside verification of Su Kong. I gotta say that the two look similar, but I suppose you can argue that all Chinese men covered with hair look alike to me! :p

[BoulderDawg]

I believe the man is more legend than real. There is a story in the manual:

According to the story Su walked into a room that held 12 people with an assassin hidden in the rafters. He then threw a knife up into the rafters killing the assassin.

He later explained that he heard 13 people breathing instead of 12..........:rolleyes:

Sorry but I'm calling BS on this. However I would love anyone in the martial arts to prove me wrong!:)

[kwaichang]

BD a mans capabilities are only limited by his own desire. Most people are told by society and others from the time of their birth that they cant do something but many can . It is the negative pessimism and thoughts that limit us all from fulfilling our true potential as humans. EX: you cant or this other guy is gifted so you cant etc. I say BULL SH// and a human can accomplish many feats thought by most to be impossible. KC

[Lamassu]

yeah, like breaking iron bars off your noggin'. :p Though I'm sure there's a rational scientific explanation for that, like banging metal against your head doesn't hurt or something. :rolleyes:

[godzillakungfu]

Somebody mentioned it being possible to get a black belt at a CSC center in 15 months. That seems really quick. I can't imagine it taking me personally (and that's just me) less than 3 years at our school (Mullins) to get to black sash. Mathematically it would be possible to do it in 2 1/2 years, but you'd have to really be training daily and really know your stuff. That's just me, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, it just seems really quick for a student to mature that quickly.

Even in ITA TaeKwonDo it takes a minimum of two years mathematically.

By the way, anyone coming to Golden Leopard 3 & 4 this weekend?Yes, it has happened on quite a few occasions in recent years.

I've also seen people fail although it is rare. As of 2005 anyways.

[BoulderDawg]

BD a mans capabilities are only limited by his own desire. Most people are told by society and others from the time of their birth that they cant do something but many can . It is the negative pessimism and thoughts that limit us all from fulfilling our true potential as humans. EX: you cant or this other guy is gifted so you cant etc. I say BULL SH// and a human can accomplish many feats thought by most to be impossible. KC


There come a time when the human will is not enough. For example there is not a human being alive (nor will there be any modern human) that can run a two minute mile...no matter how much you may want it.

This falls into that catergory. The claim is so outlandish as to be laughable. That is unless you know someone who can actually repeat this.

[ZhuFu]

OK...JP...KC...MK...WS here's something new to look at.:cool:

Paste this link in your browser:eek:

www.quasi-modo.net/Li_Po_Sui.html

Have Fun
BQ

Thanks for this!! I took all of these picts as well as all the other Su Kong picts and put them on photobucket so you could see both Li Po Sui and Su Kong Tai Djin together. Its a difficult call see what you think:
http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u5/zhufu/

[kwaichang]

Lamassu to quote" that is why you fail". It is this attitude exactly that causes failure. Do you think a man can lift 1000 pounds if need be ??? KC

[BoulderDawg]

Lamassu to quote" that is why you fail". It is this attitude exactly that causes failure. Do you think a man can lift 1000 pounds if need be ??? KC

Of course certain men can lift a 1,000 pounds. That is actually within the capacity of men to do.

However there is no one alive that can lift 10,000 pounds. Just like there is no one that could ever distinguish between 12 people breathing and 13 people breathing.

Are you saying they are people who can run a two minute mile, lift 10,000 pounds or maybe jump 50 feet in the air?

[kwaichang]

i AM SAYING THAT IF YOU SET LIMITATIONS BASED UPON THE NORM THEN YOU WILL not accomplish any thing worth while. Can a man lift 10000 lbs I dont know a woman has been known to lift a Car or 4000 pounds off a baby. I feel we limit ourselves due to our own negativity which you through logic seem to portray. Can a man / woman run a 3 minute mile or 4 minute mile or 100 meters in 9 seconds. 50 years ago the answer was the same as you have said "Its impossible" and so it is. But the 4 minute miles has been broken and maybe soon the 2 minute mile. as long as people dont get to that guy and brainwash him into thinking he cant. KC

[NastyHaggis]

In reference to the Photobucket pictures:

Was that Tang Soo Do tablet at the Shaolin Temple? If so, what was it doing there? I know Tang Soo Do means something like "Way of the China Hand" or something similar, but I thought most Korean stylists considered that a purely Korean art.

When I was in TaeKwonDo, we got a lot of Tang Soo Do people in our school, and one of my first instructors was a black belt in TSD and not TKD. They never referenced ANYTHING Chinese about that art. In fact, they talked about how Traditionally Korean it was.

If that wasn't a picture from China, then ignore what I just asked.

[BoulderDawg]

i AM SAYING THAT IF YOU SET LIMITATIONS BASED UPON THE NORM THEN YOU WILL not accomplish any thing worth while. Can a man lift 10000 lbs I dont know a woman has been known to lift a Car or 4000 pounds off a baby. I feel we limit ourselves due to our own negativity which you through logic seem to portray. Can a man / woman run a 3 minute mile or 4 minute mile or 100 meters in 9 seconds. 50 years ago the answer was the same as you have said "Its impossible" and so it is. But the 4 minute miles has been broken and maybe soon the 2 minute mile. as long as people dont get to that guy and brainwash him into thinking he cant. KC

So let's get down to it.

You believe that there was once a man that could go into a crowded room and actually tell you how many people are in that room by counting the people breathing?

If so, how did this man gain this skill?

[kwaichang]

There is a stry I heard once about a blind man who could tell you how many people were in a room and he could also walk by a number of them and let them tell him their name and then go into the other room and let the people walk into the room and he could tell them who they were. BTW the people did not say anything. I believe wuth training one can have enough sensitivity that they can detect , PARDON THE PUN" a disturbance of the vibrations of the room. we all have electromagnetic or should I say biomagnetic waves we are all different then whynot 13 instead of 12. Havent you ever had a feeling and it end up being true ?? KC

[BoulderDawg]

There is a stry I heard once about a blind man who could tell you how many people were in a room and he could also walk by a number of them and let them tell him their name and then go into the other room and let the people walk into the room and he could tell them who they were. BTW the people did not say anything. I believe wuth training one can have enough sensitivity that they can detect , PARDON THE PUN" a disturbance of the vibrations of the room. we all have electromagnetic or should I say biomagnetic waves we are all different then whynot 13 instead of 12. Havent you ever had a feeling and it end up being true ?? KC


That doesn't answer the question.

The question was: Do you believe there was a man who could tell how many people are in a room by counting how many is breathing?

I'll answer that with a direct "No".

[ZhuFu]

In reference to the Photobucket pictures:

Was that Tang Soo Do tablet at the Shaolin Temple? If so, what was it doing there? I know Tang Soo Do means something like "Way of the China Hand" or something similar, but I thought most Korean stylists considered that a purely Korean art.

When I was in TaeKwonDo, we got a lot of Tang Soo Do people in our school, and one of my first instructors was a black belt in TSD and not TKD. They never referenced ANYTHING Chinese about that art. In fact, they talked about how Traditionally Korean it was.

If that wasn't a picture from China, then ignore what I just asked.

The masters at the csc denver school made this claim for many years in regards to the stone tablets that they/GMT claimed they have been honored by at the Hunan Temple in China:
"He is the only person in 1500 years to be honored with a monument at the Hunan Shao-lin Temple". The problem was is that this Tang So Do tablet was there first, as well as quite a few other schools. A donation was paid to the temple in order to have a tablet. This picture was taken in China, at the Hunan Shao-lin Temple in 1989 which was prior to their (csc) tablet being placed. They still maintain that they were "invited to have a tablet" and then "honored" with one, with no mention of the donation made.
(I would guess like a public TV station inviting you to make a donation, and then honoring you by sending a t-shirt after you send your money in), my attemp of synical humor, not meant to offend anyone..

[kungfujunky]

yes i believe a person could and can tell the difference between 12 and 13 people breathing.

sensitivity training and sensory deprivation training make this skill attainable

it is no different than a blind person being able to navigate a room they have never been in before purely by their senses.

[BoulderDawg]

It makes for a good fairy tale but in all honesty it can't be done.

To prove me wrong I wouldn't mind hearing about someone who can do this now.

[tattooedmonk]

Not me and Su Kong passed on in 1922....makes no sense to use this guy, he has to much publicity surrounding him......... GMS is smarter than that...that I know! Anyway the answer is in the link...someone who cares just needs to contact the Archeologist listed.
BQwho's to say that Master Sin started it . Maybe Ie Chang Ming did. I have to admit that these look like the same person. Remember these people and this person were around long before all of us.

I am not saying it is not Su Kong but...it looks like it is the same person. The picture of Su kong is from when?? this other picture is from what 1921 and Su Kong died in 1922?? Very strange to say the least.

[tattooedmonk]

Whether the story of Su Kong is legend or not ,( who ****ing cares anyway? it could have been a story just to entertain a young student). The hearing of 13 breaths instead of 12 is possible.

Was is not in Empire Strikes Back where Luke is training with Yoda and Yoda raise the x wing fighter out of the swamp and Luke says something like "I do not believe it." and yoda says something like" this is why you fail."

it is because of the doubt and question in our minds and hearts that we can not achieve these types of things.

[tattooedmonk]

I believe for anyone to have a strong foundation in the art they need to spend 6months at each belt level up to brown , 2 years for brownbelt levels ,total 4years period. The Cr@p I have seen coming out of the schools is rediculous.

[BoulderDawg]

Whether the story of Su Kong is legend or not ,( who ****ing cares anyway? it could have been a story just to entertain a young student). The hearing of 13 breaths instead of 12 is possible.

Was is not in Empire Strikes Back where Luke is training with Yoda and Yoda raise the x wing fighter out of the swamp and Luke says something like "I do not believe it." and yoda says something like" this is why you fail."

it is because of the doubt and question in our minds and hearts that we can not achieve these types of things.


Well what can I say, many people believe in Sasquatch and Aliens too.

All that said I would like to see a demostration in a controlled environment. I would also bet any amount of money that I have that this is impossible.

[kwaichang]

Well BD you must be from Missouri haha, YES I BELIEVE IT, I have seen some phenominal unexplainable things and I believe with the right training it can be done. KC
PS if you only believe what you can see or is Logically proven then you must have little faith Grasshopper

[Shaolin Wookie]

Of course certain men can lift a 1,000 pounds. That is actually within the capacity of men to do.

However there is no one alive that can lift 10,000 pounds. Just like there is no one that could ever distinguish between 12 people breathing and 13 people breathing.

Are you saying they are people who can run a two minute mile, lift 10,000 pounds or maybe jump 50 feet in the air?

No, but as Gene has submitted to public review many times, there's a guy that can pull a friggin' airplane with his dong. Last I heard, he was trying to get his hands on a 747 for a record pull.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It makes for a good fairy tale but in all honesty it can't be done.

To prove me wrong I wouldn't mind hearing about someone who can do this now.

Interestingly enough, I've seen several TV specials about how blind people cope with blindness. There's a group in NYC that has come up with a veeeery interesting method to navigating the city.

They basically emulate sonar. They walk around the city with little "clickers" that make a click. Based on how the click sounds, they can tell where things are in relation to themselves with remarkable accuracy. They react to the reverberations of sound waves. I was astounded by this feat. Apparently, there's quite a few people that can do this--none of them superheroes, and little more than ordinary blind folk. All it took was very specific focus on a desired result. (Hahaha......that last sentence is like the usual translation of "kung-fu"):cool: .

The reason I bring this up, is that their "sixth sense" sensory perception is directly related to their survival. If they take one step too many at an intersection---could be lights out forever.....in a manner of speaking. (OK, that's a bad joke, I admit it).

If Liu Fu Tao has a kernel of truth to it, I'm sure it's just capitalizing on the same sensory tuning these blind people have capitalized on.

If I can find a link, I'll edit this post and post it below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpBm4KoWsrY

Okay....there's the link. I'm at work, and I can't access Youtube's vids, so I can't verify that this is a good link, or even on target, but by the description, it sounds like it's valid. Basically, this is a guy named Underwood (last name) who was featured in People magazine for using "Echol"---their sonar emulation technique.

Once again, Shaolin Wookie dropkicks the abstruse into a low earth orbit. Thank you all. You're much too kind.....please don't bow....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Whether the story of Su Kong is legend or not ,( who ****ing cares anyway? it could have been a story just to entertain a young student). The hearing of 13 breaths instead of 12 is possible.

Was is not in Empire Strikes Back where Luke is training with Yoda and Yoda raise the x wing fighter out of the swamp and Luke says something like "I do not believe it." and yoda says something like" this is why you fail."

it is because of the doubt and question in our minds and hearts that we can not achieve these types of things.

Do you know what my first reaction to the Su Kong story was?

I was entertained. It made for a good story.

Does it have to be true? Well, does the Triad story have to be true for other lineages? Does CLF's history have to be true?

Nope. It just has to gel with the Martial Art's students, and give them a model to work after---hence, a master with unbelievable skill, achieved with what? Kung-fu....hard work. Note--nobody ever became a better martial artist by believing in a story. But it might have entertained him for a good 15 minutes.

I'm starting to think a little like Gene regarding the SD lineage. I think the hairy monk tale is one of the best stories it has, to be honest. Does it have to be true? Nope.

Who knows, maybe Su Kong stumbled, or a drop of water fell from the ceiling, and he looked up for a second and saw the guy, then started screaming: "Ahhhhhhhh!" And then threw a knife at the guy. Or maybe the guy cut the cheese, thereby revealing his position.

Only a putz takes legend as fact. Here's a good, relevant example: At the battle of Thermopylae, who actually believes 300 Spartans took on several million Persians?

Answer: very few......there were probably a couple hundred thousand Spartans in the least.....but it makes for a really cool story, doesn't it?

**If I recall correctly, I believe someone much wiser than myself mentioned this when he talked with me regarding SD's history.....(so I don't think that's an original Wookie comparison).**

[Baqualin]

Do you know what my first reaction to the Su Kong story was?

I was entertained. It made for a good story.

Does it have to be true? Well, does the Triad story have to be true for other lineages? Does CLF's history have to be true?

Nope. It just has to gel with the Martial Art's students, and give them a model to work after---hence, a master with unbelievable skill, achieved with what? Kung-fu....hard work. Note--nobody ever became a better martial artist by believing in a story. But it might have entertained him for a good 15 minutes.

I'm starting to think a little like Gene regarding the SD lineage. I think the hairy monk tale is one of the best stories it has, to be honest. Does it have to be true? Nope.

Who knows, maybe Su Kong stumbled, or a drop of water fell from the ceiling, and he looked up for a second and saw the guy, then started screaming: "Ahhhhhhhh!" And then threw a knife at the guy. Or maybe the guy cut the cheese, thereby revealing his position.

Only a putz takes legend as fact. Here's a good, relevant example: At the battle of Thermopylae, who actually believes 300 Spartans took on several million Persians?

Answer: very few......there were probably a couple hundred thousand Spartans in the least.....but it makes for a really cool story, doesn't it?

**If I recall correctly, I believe someone much wiser than myself mentioned this when he talked with me regarding SD's history.....(so I don't think that's an original Wookie comparison).**

NICE;)
BQ

[kwaichang]

Greeks Fight the Immortals:
On the third day, Leonidas led his 300 Spartan hoplites (elite troops selected because they had living sons back home) plus the allied Thespians and Thebans against Xerxes and his army of "10,000 Immortals." The Spartan-led forces fought this unstoppable Persian force to their deaths in order to block the pass long enough to keep Xerxes and his army occupied while the rest of the Greek army escaped.

Here you BTW there were 700 volunteers. So yes i do believe KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Are you quoting Herodotus on that? From what I remember, he had much larger figures......

The moral of the story is this: With superior ground and tactical position, a smaller force can fend off a larger one, if they have the courage to stand and fight.

Plus, it was good PR for the oft-scorned Spartans.....

Herodotus himself (The Father of History) once said something to the gist of: "I am not obliged to record the truth of history, such as this is never consensus." And he backs it up by sometimes citing several versions of a story.

Historians of the new mould began with Thucydides, who took varying accounts, blended them together, cut off the excess with Occam's razor, and presented the product as historical truth. Only, it was the truth as he saw it.....not necessarily historical truth. And he doesn't always cite his sources. That's a big no-no nowadays.

BTW....if anyone ever intends to read Thucydides (I give him some much-warranted post-mortem publicity on this forum), order the translation by Thomas Hobbes. Believe me, it's fantastic.

[kwaichang]

Thanks SW I like being proven right by those I do not know. I say SKTJ heard 13 breathing any takers after the video I witnessed KC

[kungfujunky]

kc great clip!

honestly after seeing that how can you doubt?

there are similar stories of ninjas doing amazing things with their sensory perceptions.

it is just a matter of focus and practice

[kwaichang]

Hey KFJ I didnt post it it was SW

[kungfujunky]

Hey KFJ I didnt post it it was SW



your right my mistake!

thx sw

[kungfujunky]

I don't see any evidence for Su Kong's existence let alone such feats. The reasons why I don't believe the Su Kong story are as follows.
A) The Five Elders story is echoed by many lineages and is present all over Chinese folklore. If the Su Kong story were true, wouldn't it be well known within the Mo Lum and folklore? But it isn't, the Five Elders are though. The Su Kong story also contradicts the Five Elders story. What does that say?

that doesnt make it false. many styles dont echo that story. does that make them inherintly false just because? that is a loose argument at best


B) Su Kong's dates don't match with those of Southern Shaolin history.

of known recorded shaolin history. not more than 10-15 years ago southern shaolin temples were considered a fairy tale and yet they have found a number of them


C) I don’t think it's possible to learn 900 forms well in one lifetime.

thats your opinion of course. but has no bearing on the overall point of contention


D) SD claims a lot of styles and says that they descend from the Shaolin Temple. In lineages recognized by the Mo Lum, many of the listed styles do trace back to the Shaolin Temple but they evolved over time. Also, many of the styles SD lists aren't even Shaolin. Not to mention, you’d have to be connected to certain recognized lineages that SD isn’t in order to really have certain styles.

what styles are you referring to and hundreds of years ago there very well could have been a connection. so again this is not a solid point


E) I hear that funky lineage stories are really common in Indonesian martial arts.

and i hear there are martians on mars. while that very well may be true it is not relevant.



it has been said time and again that sd had to adapt and add new things to it to stay hidden from persecution while in indonesia.

from what i have seen all of those newer trappings are shown before first black.

after that we learn traditional shaolin kung fu styles.

[kwaichang]

History is just that HIS STORY. History is warped to fit the purpose of the teller. Perhaps the 5 elders story is off a little, anyway I have trained in SD for 15 years and have learned over 100 forms if my count is correct. So I think 900 in a life time is possible with the right effort. "funky" Lineage stories are also prevelant in Japanese English and Chinese histories as well. This as you say has no Logic as to why you dont believe the history of SD.

I will tell you why I do believe and it is simple. I have heard GMT tell the story of SD many times and I have heard the story from those he told. If it is a lie then the story would change as we all know a story that is not true tends to change over time. And since no one can disprove it it is true in my opinion. Also it is well known that the Chinese would often kill infants that were undesirable , the greeks and spartains and Japanese as well so why should they talk of it ??? KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I finally watched the link I posted on the blind guys and echol to verify it.

Surprise, surprise, it wasn't any of the ones I'd seen before. I've seen even more impressive feats---blind guys navigating with echol on noisy city streets and busy intersections.

Just goes to show there are people doing what SKTJ is purported to having done on an everyday basis.:D

[The Willow Sword]

You know this is a broken record guys. It is uncanny how one thread in a whole plethera and multitude of forums can be so redundant to the point of ridiculous and comical. I am amazed at it all really. Still though, no answers worth giving ole willow sword here from the Man himself( i guess letters do not arrive at their destinations in tact, or they are disregarded) No meetings this Feb ever took place to ask the questions and get answers. Alot of talk and posturing, but no real actions taken.

Oh well, it is almost davinci code'ish in that the Truth could shock the very foundation of the shaolin-do world,LOL:D The Kung FU world at that:eek:

i am envisioning an Old Kwaichang kneeling before an elaborately created pyramid with the sarcophagus of Sukong himself underneath in the year 2045.:rolleyes:



Peace and prosperity to you all ,,TWS.

[BoulderDawg]

i am envisioning an Old Kwaichang kneeling before an elaborately created pyramid with the sarcophagus of Sukong himself underneath in the year 2045


I just want to see some bones with hair all over them.:D

Is this like "The Lost Tomb of Su"!

[tattooedmonk]

I just got done watching and reviewing a wushu,( contemporary and modern.mostly contemporary, meaning fighting arts ), virtual magazine site which has all these videos of CMA.

Anyway......... I am sitting here watching all these forms and seeing so many moves directly out of some of our forms in SD, performed just like we do them.

For all you idiots that think and believe that SD does not teach authentic Shaolin Kung Fu you are lost and totally clueless.

You all get caught up in the outward trappings and whatever but none of you have any idea of what true Shaolin or CMA is if you think SD is not the real deal.

You are too caught up in the non intrinsic aspects to see the truth.

SD is for real.

Yeah some of the claims and this and that may be out there but this does not take away from the true heart of the art ,which SD definately has.

So go pull your heads out of your @$$es long enough to experience SD for a couple of months and you will surely be convinced .

and by the way.........STFU already about all this BULL$hit. Unless you have some undeniable proof that SD is not what it claims to be STFU!!!

what I am tired of hearing from all you @$$ wipes is the same old sorry cr@p. pick something relievant and intrinsic about the art to debate about.

stupid keyboard martial arts want a bees.:D

[tattooedmonk]

...........as I understand it the southern temple that Su Kong resided in is different than the one from the Five Elders history.

The one of the five elders history was a smaller temple associated with the main temple ,so this would account for the difference in dates and histories.

Just like it was said before it is HIS Story.

Even the Bible is said to be the word of God but the problem is man wrote it and he has flaws and makes mistakes . Man has a narrow perspective based on biases. Do you , if you believe in the Bible , believe that it is all accurate and has no flaws ??

Hell so many books have been left out of the Bible.

As far as I am concerned the editing and leaving sections out is a flaw and outright a mistake.

Anyone read the Book of Enoch ?? That is some mind blowing $h!t!!

Only recently, ( this is relative ), has there been the documentation and publishing of the history of CMA and the Shaolin Temples .

There is a great deal of the history that has been lost for many reasons for many years.

Some say there was only one Shaolin Temple, in Honan. Some say that there was never any martial arts taught there. Many peolpe say all sorts of things and a great deal of it is hard to prove .

So take that and stick it in your ear!!!

[kungfujunky]

i agree the omitted books of the bible paint a very different picture than what the church wanted seen

hey willow sword i knew the pic thing would get you to post lol

[Judge Pen]

I am shocked, SHOCKED! that someone would suggest this thread is redundant. :p I liked the analogy that this thread is like an old pub that is filled with regulars talking about the same stuff everyday with the occassional outsider wandering in to add their two cents which will do nothing to change the minds of the regulars.

[kwaichang]

well TWS the meeting did take place got the answers I needed so sorry. So this means I have only 38 more years to find the bones whew better get started KC

[Lamassu]

Were you the guy that was going to interview GMT with some hardnose questions? If so, did you approach the guy and what questions did you ask him? You talk of posturing, but well, thats what happens at tournaments regardless of what style is being performed. What did you think would happen? Caged fighting?

And for the record, KC, I wasn't doubting Su Kong's capability to determine the number of people in a room without visually counting them, I was commenting on the "if I can't do it then nobody can" mentality that many posters have on this forum. I can't run a mile in 2 min. but I know the minute I declare that no one in general can, then somebody will come along run a mile in 2 min. and I suddenly have egg all over my face. That's why I don't make blanket generalizations about mankinds capabilities to perform outstanding and outlandish feats, because whenever I do, that's when I'm proven wrong.

SW, where's this video you posted about blind people? I can't seem to find it.

[Baqualin]

...........as I understand it the southern temple that Su Kong resided in is different than the one from the Five Elders history.

The one of the five elders history was a smaller temple associated with the main temple ,so this would account for the difference in dates and histories.

Just like it was said before it is HIS Story.

Even the Bible is said to be the word of God but the problem is man wrote it and he has flaws and makes mistakes . Man has a narrow perspective based on biases. Do you , if you believe in the Bible , believe that it is all accurate and has no flaws ??

Hell so many books have been left out of the Bible.

As far as I am concerned the editing and leaving sections out is a flaw and outright a mistake.

Anyone read the Book of Enoch ?? That is some mind blowing $h!t!!

Only recently, ( this is relative ), has there been the documentation and publishing of the history of CMA and the Shaolin Temples .

There is a great deal of the history that has been lost for many reasons for many years.

Some say there was only one Shaolin Temple, in Honan. Some say that there was never any martial arts taught there. Many peolpe say all sorts of things and a great deal of it is hard to prove .

So take that and stick it in your ear!!!

Double Nice:D

[BoulderDawg]

And for the record, KC, I wasn't doubting Su Kong's capability to determine the number of people in a room without visually counting them, I was commenting on the "if I can't do it then nobody can" mentality that many posters have on this forum. I can't run a mile in 2 min. but I know the minute I declare that no one in general can, then somebody will come along run a mile in 2 min. and I suddenly have egg all over my face. That's why I don't make blanket generalizations about mankinds capabilities to perform outstanding and outlandish feats, because whenever I do, that's when I'm proven wrong.


Well Michael Johnson broke the world record for the 200 meter dash at the Olympics (he still holds that record by quite a margin). In 1996 he was the fastest human that ever lived. Yet his speed for the 200 meters was just a shade over 23 miles an hour.

I think it's fairly safe to say that no modern day human will ever run a 2 minute mile. Maybe after 20 millions years of evolution....who knows.

[KungFu Student]

Well Michael Johnson broke the world record for the 200 meter dash at the Olympics (he still holds that record by quite a margin). In 1996 he was the fastest human that ever lived. Yet his speed for the 200 meters was just a shade over 23 miles an hour.

I think it's fairly safe to say that no modern day human will ever run a 2 minute mile. Maybe after 20 millions years of evolution....who knows.

By striving for things that others believe to be impossible, humanity has accomplished many amazing things. This lack of looking past what most consider unachievable is why the people of today are heading for some unpleasant times. We have gotten so used to having things handed to us that we have stopped trying to reach for something better. This is one of the main reasons that I try and stay out of the "which MA is better" debates. I respect anyone; even someone from another art, for the simple fact is that they are doing something that others find takes too much effort.

[Lamassu]

Well Michael Johnson broke the world record for the 200 meter dash at the Olympics (he still holds that record by quite a margin). In 1996 he was the fastest human that ever lived. Yet his speed for the 200 meters was just a shade over 23 miles an hour.

I think it's fairly safe to say that no modern day human will ever run a 2 minute mile. Maybe after 20 millions years of evolution....who knows.

so then, if my calculations are correct, Michael Johnson only needs to improve his speed by 7 miles an hour. That and maintain that speed for the length of one mile and he'll accomplish running a mile in two minutes. If he was declared the fastest human to ever live back in 1996 then I'll assume he made it in the Guinness Book of World Records, and statiscally speaking, those who make it in this book tend to be repeat record breakers; usually their own.

[Crushing Fist]

I think if humanity was focused in a very serious way on producing faster runners we could break the 2 minute mile within 100 years.

This would require genetic engineering and selective breeding, but I am quite certain it could be done.


Through selective breeding alone it may be accomplished in a similar amount of time, but humans don't seem intent on that sort of thing, instead seeming to prefer choosing mates based on other criteria.

Now if Cybernetic Enhancement is allowed it could probably be done within the decade, but that is probably against the rules.


What were we talking about again?

Oh yeah... nothing.

[Lamassu]

I think if humanity was focused in a very serious way on producing faster runners we could break the 2 minute mile within 100 years.

This would require genetic engineering and selective breeding, but I am quite certain it could be done.


Through selective breeding alone it may be accomplished in a similar amount of time, but humans don't seem intent on that sort of thing, instead seeming to prefer choosing mates based on other criteria.

Now if Cybernetic Enhancement is allowed it could probably be done within the decade, but that is probably against the rules.


What were we talking about again?

Oh yeah... nothing.


What do you have against genetic engineering? As for cybernetic enhancement, it would be legal, if it became a standard issuing procedure, like having a microchip installed that has your entire medical history encoded. Better people through invasive science, get the results you want without all the pesky drugs. :p

[Crushing Fist]

What do you have against genetic engineering? As for cybernetic enhancement, it would be legal, if it became a standard issuing procedure, like having a microchip installed that has your entire medical history encoded. Better people through invasive science, get the results you want without all the pesky drugs. :p

but would they have to have another category for that?

Fastest Enhanced Human Land Speed Record or something. Probably. The purists would be up in arms.

[Lamassu]

but would they have to have another category for that?

Fastest Enhanced Human Land Speed Record or something. Probably. The purists would be up in arms.

Nah. It'll all be under the table the way performance enhancing drugs are used by today's athelites. Besides, I find that the louder the "purists" scream and hollar the deeper they're involved in the very thing they're griping about.

[MasterKiller]

Anyone know the World Record for swimming with your pecs?

[The Xia]

Anyone know the World Record for swimming with your pecs?
Is that another Sin The claim?

[Lamassu]

Anyone know the World Record for swimming with your pecs?

That would be Gov. Arnold Schwartzenegger. Have you seen him give his famous pec demonstration? :eek: Freaky.

[PangQuan]

give me an arm that can crush a mans skull in my grip and ill drop my left right now!

[The Willow Sword]

well TWS the meeting did take place got the answers I needed so sorry.

Please share. Or is that one of those things where you gotta learn the secret handshake and recite some elk's lodge riddle to get the answers:rolleyes:
or you could PM me or call , you know how discreet i am about these things;).


Posted by Kungfujunky


i knew those pics would get you to post,lol

Hahah Yeah Hook line and sinker, reeled in.


Peace,TWS

[Lamassu]

What about you TWS? What questions did you ask him and what were his responses?

[The Willow Sword]

Uhh refer to my post on previous page, READ IT, then you will have the answer to your question.:)

Peace,TWS

[Lamassu]

So let me get this straight, you DIDN'T go up to GMT face to face, like a man and ask him your "hardnose" questions, instead you sent him a letter. GMT doesn't know you, if I received a letter from some total stranger being critical of my ma, I wouldn't reply either. I don't need to prove myself to you or anyone, and neither does GMT. Maybe, if you actually WENT to the tournament and paid the measly $5.00 to get in, and approached him like a man with your questions, you might have gotten the answers you were looking for, and maybe even stumped him like I'm sure you fantasized about doing. ;) Tell you what, I notice you have "lone star state" as your location, so I'm sure you're in Texas. GMT comes to Texas at least twice a year for tournaments. Why don't you put $5.00 aside for August when he comes back and confront him like you planned for last month. :p

[The Willow Sword]

I would be tempted to call you a fuking idiot at this point but i am not going to. Instead i will inform you that i was once a disciple of SD and have taken seminars from Sin The' and he certainly knows who i am. I was with SD for 9years and taught SD curriculum for 4 of those 9years. Ive had the pleasure of dining with Sin The' at the famous chinese resteraunt in Lexington that he likes to go to(this was way before i left the orgainization.
I am not about to go up to Sin The' at a tournament and ask him these "hard nosed questions" with the goon squad in my face, let alone face a rageaholic like Bill Leonard who believes that we should believe everything SIn the' tells us and that we should treat him like the president of the united states:rolleyes: . My intentions are not violent ones nor will i engage in a pi$$ing contest with blind followers who have this pseudo sense of honor and duty to protect a man that needs no protection to begin with(especially from me).

Peace,TWS

[BoulderDawg]

I guess the question is:

Would Sin ever agree to sit down with a journalist from maybe Kung Fu magazine (for example)for an intensive interview?

I say that will never happen. He has nothing to back up any of his claims.

[kwaichang]

TWS you know that you could ask GMT just about anything as a matter of fact when I asked my questions I mentioned to him that there are those who feel the SD history is not factful. So why dont you do it I will prob be in Texas in August and will mediate if you wish KC

[Lamassu]

I would be tempted to call you a fuking idiot at this point but i am not going to. Instead i will inform you that i was once a disciple of SD and have taken seminars from Sin The' and he certainly knows who i am. I was with SD for 9years and taught SD curriculum for 4 of those 9years. Ive had the pleasure of dining with Sin The' at the famous chinese resteraunt in Lexington that he likes to go to(this was way before i left the orgainization.
I am not about to go up to Sin The' at a tournament and ask him these "hard nosed questions" with the goon squad in my face, let alone face a rageaholic like Bill Leonard who believes that we should believe everything SIn the' tells us and that we should treat him like the president of the united states:rolleyes: . My intentions are not violent ones nor will i engage in a pi$$ing contest with blind followers who have this pseudo sense of honor and duty to protect a man that needs no protection to begin with(especially from me).

Peace,TWS

See, now I'm confused. :confused: If you were once a student of Shaolin Do for 9 years (which is three years more than me), then why the animosity? Did he kick your puppy or something? These questions of yours, have you tried to ask him before in the past? If you did, then what were his answers and if he didn't answer you then, why do you think he would now? You say you had the pleasure of dining with GMT, yet you never have anything nice to say about him. So which is it? I think its funny, how one minute SD is nothing but crap and everything we're learning is crap and won't help us in a real fight and blah blah blah, and yet you're afraid to face GMT with his "goon squad", what's there to worry about? He's ripping us all off anyway right? I'm not trying to protect the man, as you pointed out, I don't need to; I just think the best way to quell skeptism is to answer the critics questions. But how can he answer them if you don't ask him face to face? If you've been a student for nine years than I'm sure you've been to one of these tournaments before, and it wouldn't be a good idea for his "goons" to be beating you up when there are bleachers full of guests, families and not to mention local news coverage (at least in Austin). So I have a question for you TWS, is GMT a merciless bully who trains thugs to crush anyone who dares question his authority, or is he merely some two bit charlatin that is filling our heads with empty nonsense and worthless kung fu? :confused:

Finally, you can call me an idiot all you want, and don't worry about getting into a pi$$ing contest with me, I don't hero worship GMT, but I also don't have some deep hidden animosity as you apparently do. I just think it's b.s. the way you prod KC over what he got from talking with GMT in person, and in such a biting tone, when you aren't willing to do it yourself.

as you said: peace,
Lamassu

[The Willow Sword]

Okay now i am calling you a fuking idiot. you fuking idiot.:rolleyes:

[Lamassu]

Whatever dude, this is over.

[NastyHaggis]

I would hope that I could decide in under...say 2 years...if whatever activities I chose to pursue in life are worthwhile or not. If I decided after say...9 years that what I was doing was not worthwhile I would certainly be disapointed in myself for not being cognizent enough to discover that sooner. This is just a personal thought about myself that I stated out loud for others to hear as I continue my martial arts journey. Just a random thought. Sorry for the interruption...now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[BoulderDawg]

Well, as far as I go, I was in the program for a year and a half. After about 6 months and researching the lineage I knew it was BS and Sin had made it all up. However that didn't really matter. I liked the program because it was a good physical workout also I had friends in the school.

I could have lived with that. The problems I had with the program involved the fact that advancement seem to come just a little too easily. Also, the Masters don't seem to come around much anymore therefore there was no sparring for around 4 months.

[brucereiter]

After about 6 months and researching the lineage I knew it was BS and Sin had made it all up.

please elaborate about what "it" is the you say sin the made up.
-can you name anything that sin the made up?
-can you prove your claims?
-what are you claiming sin the made up?
-are you claiming he made up the history?
-are you claiming he made up the material?
-how do you come to your opinion that sin the made anything up?


best,

bruce

[Golden Tiger]

Also, the Masters don't seem to come around much anymore therefore there was no sparring for around 4 months.


So am I to understand that you guys weren't allowed to spar unless there was a Master there? Wow, that how most classes in Lex. spent the time when a Master wasn't there. Not learning new material? Lets fight. Oh, its Thursday, lets fight. UK got beat again, lets fight (alot of those nights lately:( )

Anyway, not to judge a different method of running a school or anything, but yeah, I doubt if I would have lasted that long out there either.

And woohoooo, less than two weeks!

[NastyHaggis]

Maybe it's just because Elder Master Gary runs our school, but advancement is not a cake walk here. I know that the same can be said for the schools run by Masters Mike & Kevin Mullins as well, and I would wager it would be true for all of the schools in E.M. Gary's line.

If someone is that fired up about sparring, get together with some friends and spar. Don't complain about it, be proactive and do something about it. If it concerns you that much that you aren't sparring in class, you should really speak with your head instructor about it and see what's going on. Any reasonable instructor will find the time to speak with his students. There are a couple of us that live in the same neighborhood and have talked about sparring together outside of class.

If none of that solves the problem, go to a WTF Taekwondo school. The VAST majority of what they do is sparring.