Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Lamassu]

There is only one Master in Texas (Master Schaefer), and he's at the North Austin kwoon. When I asked my sifu down in San Marcos about the frequency in sparring he told me that as long as there was a black belt there to supervise, then we could spar whenever. In fact even if our sifu couldn't make it to class then one of the most senior black belts (usually a 1st degree; nothing higher than a 2nd degree) would take over the class and it was business as usual, including sparring. I figured this would be standard for all SD kwoons in the U.S. and sparring was part of the everyday criteria. Live and learn.

[BoulderDawg]

I've done fairly extensive research and have found no evidence for the lineage.

Quite frankly, I can find no proof that Master Su existed at all. Also, it's strange the lineage begins with Su. How about all those Masters at the Fukien Temple? The ones that taught those 900 forms? Are these names just lost in history? It appears that Su would have seen the importance of passing at least some of this information down to Ie. Also Ie himself should have studied under the majority of these Masters.

Now according to the CSC manual in the 1950/60s Master Ie ran a school that had 80 students with a long waiting list. Doesn't it make sense that Sin would not be the only Master that studied under Ie that I can find any information on. The man ran this school for years. There should be hundreds of people out there who were either students or family or friends of students. And in all that time no one thought "could I have a picture taken with the Master". In fact the school was large enough and Ie (supposely) was such an important Master that I believe the school should probably still exist in some form. After all Ie was 96 when he died. Was he not concerned enough about the art to name somebody as his successor?

In any case the facts are just not there. Can I prove that these people did not exist? About as much as I can prove Sasquatch and Aliens don't exist. All one can do is look at the evidence and decide for themselves.

**************

As far as sparring goes:

The rule is: No one can spar at CSC unless the owner of the school is present. In our case the owners are the Masters.

Everything seemed okay until about September of last year. There were reasons for the absence of the Masters then however we were informed that after the first of the year the Masters would return. This was not the case. My friends still in the program tell me they are lucky if the Masters show up once a week. I have not participated since December.

They have also cut the amount of time that the school is open. Lower belt class is now one hour...it use to be two. I guess you can say they have less time to actually not be there!:D

[MasterKiller]

Now according to the CSC manual in the 1950/60s Master Ie ran a school that had 80 students with a long waiting list. Doesn't it make sense that Sin would not be the only Master that studied under Ie that I can find any information on. The man ran this school for years. There should be hundreds of people out there who were either students or family or friends of students. And in all that time no one thought "could I have a picture taken with the Master". In fact the school was large enough and Ie (supposely) was such an important Master that I believe the school should probably still exist in some form. After all Ie was 96 when he died. Was he not concerned enough about the art to name somebody as his successor?

The school does still exist in Indonesia, according to some folks here who say they have visited it.

It's not such a strecth for thousands of people to have studied there, but no one else in America knows about it. The Korean situation is the same way. Thousands of people have studied Long Fist/N. Mantis/Bagua in Korea, but there are only a handful of schools in the U.S. teaching styles from these lineages, and most of those are only here because of U.S. Servicemen returning home after being stationed in Seoul.

If you think about it, Karate and TKD are sooooo prevelent because of U.S. soldiers as well. Since Indonesia isn't a hotbed of American involvement, there probably aren't a lot of Westerners there to learn it and bring it back home.

Not having any actual photos does bug me, though. Seems like someone would have snapped a pic instead of taking the time to paint all those...erm...not-so-good likenesses. I was pulling for the European dude on here to actually have some photos, but I guess he disappeared.

[ninthdrunk]

Man, where to start?

Lamassu - you should read back through posts of TWS. Whether I agree with his case or not, he has his reasons, and you might understand him a little better if you check it out. Oh, and incidentally, I was a Martindale/San Marcos student for a long while. If you started back at Betty Jack's, or the Aquarena Springs location, you probably know me (or if you started before that...six years...hmm? I don't remember where we were back then!)

That's some serious cr@p that y'all can't spar without a master, or the owner of the school! Oh, and one hour a week is also cr@p! I hope you can find something you enjoy, BD, and I hope that didn't leave too bad of a taste in your mouth for SD.

BQ - I can't believe it's still two weeks away! I've thought it was two weeks away for the last two months. I can't even control myself these days!! I'll see you there!

[Judge Pen]

The school does still exist in Indonesia, according to some folks here who say they have visited it.

It's not such a strecth for thousands of people to have studied there, but no one else in America knows about it. The Korean situation is the same way. Thousands of people have studied Long Fist/N. Mantis/Bagua in Korea, but there are only a handful of schools in the U.S. teaching styles from these lineages, and most of those are only here because of U.S. Servicemen returning home after being stationed in Seoul.

If you think about it, Karate and TKD are sooooo prevelent because of U.S. soldiers as well. Since Indonesia isn't a hotbed of American involvement, there probably aren't a lot of Westerners there to learn it and bring it back home.

Not having any actual photos does bug me, though. Seems like someone would have snapped a pic instead of taking the time to paint all those...erm...not-so-good likenesses. I was pulling for the European dude on here to actually have some photos, but I guess he disappeared.

I was pulling for that too, but oh well.... AT least he did say that his teacher trained with Ie, so that's one non-SD person (or a troll--the jury is still out).

[Baqualin]

BQ - I can't believe it's still two weeks away! I've thought it was two weeks away for the last two months. I can't even control myself these days!! I'll see you there!

I know, GMS will be in this Sunday and EML is the most excited I've ever seen him...it's going to be a fun weekend:eek: :D :D :cool: :cool: :cool:
BQ

[brucereiter]

(or a troll--the jury is still out).

that was my call right away :-(

[brucereiter]

I've done fairly extensive research and have found no evidence for the lineage.
-provide some of the things you researched. your questions and conclusions ...



Quite frankly, I can find no proof that Master Su existed at all.

there is no "proof" sin the's teacher told him the history/legends of his system and this is what sin the shares with the people who are interested.



Also, it's strange the lineage begins with Su. How about all those Masters at the Fukien Temple? The ones that taught those 900 forms? Are these names just lost in history?
good question ... it would be interesting to hear the "pre history" of su kong ... but i dont think we will.



It appears that Su would have seen the importance of passing at least some of this information down to Ie. Also Ie himself should have studied under the majority of these Masters. why?




Now according to the CSC manual in the 1950/60s Master Ie ran a school that had 80 students with a long waiting list. Doesn't it make sense that Sin would not be the only Master that studied under Ie that I can find any information on. The man ran this school for years. There should be hundreds of people out there who were either students or family or friends of students. And in all that time no one thought "could I have a picture taken with the Master". In fact the school was large enough and Ie (supposely) was such an important Master that I believe the school should probably still exist in some form. After all Ie was 96 when he died. Was he not concerned enough about the art to name somebody as his successor?

there are, you need to go to indonesia to speak with them. not everyone who does martial arts has a youtube channel and a website. the teachings do still exist "in some form"
sin kwang the' in 1968 was named ie chang mings successor.
just because you have not seen a picture does not mean there are no pictures. many of the paintings in question are paintings of pictures.
note: i wish there were more pictures too :-)



In any case the facts are just not there. Can I prove that these people did not exist? About as much as I can prove Sasquatch and Aliens don't exist. All one can do is look at the evidence and decide for themselves.

the evidence says in some form "these people" do/did exist.
in my opinion legend and fact can be easy to confuse.

**************

As far as sparring goes:


The rule is: No one can spar at CSC unless the owner of the school is present. In our case the owners are the Masters.

this is not the case in the atlanta schools. the general rule is under brown belt you need supervision to spar and brown belt or higher spar to your hearts content.

[KungFu Student]

Ok for over 40 years GMS has been bashed, called a lair, harressed and yet no one in 40 years has proven him wrong or a fraud...NO ONE!!! So all you so called experts out there SHOW ME Proof

Unfortunately, this issue has polarized people to the point that if proof was offered up, there will still naysayer’s that will come up with some way to try and discredit it, "I don't believe you", "My research tells me this", "Picture is too blurry", you get the idea. I would implore people to just let this go, but we all know that is not going to happen. I have resolved myself to the fact that there are those who you cannot please, and like to complain and argue until they pass out. I would rather spend my time training, and researching ideas and techniques that improve my skill. But that is just me, my opinions do not reflect that of the management!:D

[kungfujunky]

to bad you left bd

i will be in boulder this weekend and was looking forward to crossing hands

hehe

the elder masters had a very serious family issue come up this year and it has changed their views on a few things. i think the schools will pass to the senior student (or the one most capable of running it) soon as the masters are spread pretty thin.

boulderdawg you have no issue with coming on here and spouting off at the mouth but you couldnt ask the elder masters any of this because?

the schedule is up for months in advance so you know when they will be around.

it wouldnt be to hard to catch them and ask for either
a: some time when they could help alleviate some concerns of yours or
b: answer a few questions.

in my experience the masters have always had time for their students no matter how busy they are.

as for the sparring issue

the way the insurance for the schools is set up the owner must be present otherwise accidents are not covered. period.

ive checked because i was curious about this as well. but you know what!

i just drove to the springs so i could spar a few rounds every other week. and it was well worth the drive! lol

[John Many Jars]

Ok, here's the weird thing. We've had one of the masters at the Denver school more often than not since January. So we've been sparring quite a bit. Mind you I'm not complaining. It just seemed interesting.

I was talking to one of the 4th blacks here recently and the story is that years ago the Soards went out of town and there were something like 4 people injured while sparring so they stopped doing it. He was one of them w/ a broken wrist. That's probably where the insurance thing comes in. =\


this is not the case in the atlanta schools. the general rule is under brown belt you need supervision to spar and brown belt or higher spar to your hearts content.

That's generally what our rule is outside of class though a few of us occasionally spar during practice hour.


@kungfujunky- Are you going to come to the Denver school on Sat. for gloved sparring? If not and you're around Sunday night, I could probably scrounge up some people for a sparring night.......if you're interested.

[kungfujunky]

i am definitely coming saturday

and i find it weird about the one master as well but i have assumed the other was at boulder

[kwaichang]

What happened to the good old days when students were respectful, teachers were dedicated to the student and not the dollar$$ ?? I am saddened by the lack of self discipline toward the spiritual and philosophical side of MA training. The total focus now is who can Kick whos as$. So what we all know that is not what this stuff is all about. Shoot if it were all of us would just carry a bigger gun. Those who question the art they have chosen to study and doubt the integrity of the Grand Master in my opinion should just leave. Well I guess I have opened a new can of worms. I can tell you though when I started to train in 1971 it was different and what we were taught meant something it was about learning not many of the things focused on here. BTW TWS no answer about August I guess you arent up to it. KC

[Baqualin]

What happened to the good old days when students were respectful, teachers were dedicated to the student and not the dollar$$ ?? I am saddened by the lack of self discipline toward the spiritual and philosophical side of MA training. The total focus now is who can Kick whos as$. So what we all know that is not what this stuff is all about. Shoot if it were all of us would just carry a bigger gun. Those who question the art they have chosen to study and doubt the integrity of the Grand Master in my opinion should just leave. Well I guess I have opened a new can of worms. I can tell you though when I started to train in 1971 it was different and what we were taught meant something it was about learning not many of the things focused on here. BTW TWS no answer about August I guess you arent up to it. KC

Just be thankful that you train where you do....it's still the good ole days here...see ya in a week & 4 days (what's your schedule?)
BQ

[The Xia]

I am saddened by the lack of self discipline toward the spiritual and philosophical side of MA training. The total focus now is who can Kick whos as$.
Actually, I think what some modern martial artists call philosophical and spiritual is nothing more then B.S. that's been shoved down their throats. Historically speaking, Kung Fu was used for fighting. If you look at the atmosphere that Kung Fu developed in, you will see loads of violence. Kung Fu was tailored for that kind of world. I'm not saying there are no other benefits from Kung Fu besides fighting ability, but I get a little tired of people using what I think amounts to marketing gimmicks to describe what martial arts are about.

[kwaichang]

You werent there you dont know. No marketing here if you do MA with out the "philosophical side you miss half of what is taught. If you are talking Shaolin then it originally started as a means by which the Monks could withstand the rigors of the training. As with all societies not all were violent and many did not fight to survive. Xia why do you spout off about this when all you are doing is fishing. You are missing out man. KC

[The Xia]

What Shaolin styles are you talking about? There is a long history of fighting in Shaolin based arts and not everyone that practiced Kung Fu, or Shaolin styles for that matter, was a monk. Monks are also human too. It seems that many people think that every Shaolin monk in the past was like Kwai Chang Caine. If I'm missing out on something it's this monk fetish that some people have. They can keep it. I'll stick to being grounded thank you.

[kwaichang]

The philosophical concepts of the Shaolin arts and others have alot to do with the systems them selves but many miss that aspect of the arts KC

[MasterKiller]

If you are talking Shaolin then it originally started as a means by which the Monks could withstand the rigors of the training.

Um...I don't think so. Shaolin was a rich monastary, held lots of land, and was situated in politically sensitive areas. Any martial arts they developed were to protect their assets, or to protect themselves in case they were conscripted to fight.

Your version of Shaolin comes straight of wuxia novels and poorly researched books.

[KungFu Student]

Um...I don't think so. Shaolin was a rich monastary, held lots of land, and was situated in politically sensitive areas. Any martial arts they developed were to protect their assets, or to protect themselves in case they were conscripted to fight.

Your version of Shaolin comes straight of wuxia novels and poorly researched books.

I think that I Chin Ching's were introduced to help strengthen their bodies, and as MasterKiller stated, the fighting arts were developed later to defend against bandits, protect their monastery, and to serve when conscripted.

[MasterKiller]

I think that I Chin Ching's were introduced to help strengthen their bodies.

There is no mention of ANY martial arts training at Shaolin until the 16th Century.

[KungFu Student]

There is no mention of ANY martial arts training at Shaolin until the 16th Century.

I did not specify a date, just making a statement that the fighting arts were not introduced first to help them with the rigors of monastic life.

[BoulderDawg]

the elder masters had a very serious family issue come up this year and it has changed their views on a few things. i think the schools will pass to the senior student (or the one most capable of running it) soon as the masters are spread pretty thin.

I feel for all family emergenies that come up. However no matter what happened in my family I simply could not leave my job for four months. In the real world if you service customers you simply can't say "Family emergency - I won't be around from Sept to Dec". Especially if these customers have paid for the service.

Also, passing the school to the person most qualified to take the responsiblity.......The problem with that is the person most qualified to run and teach at the school would probably not take the position.

Anyway, if the Masters are seriously considering retiring (must be nice)then they should let the present students know whats going on.

[kungfujunky]

i agree they should communicate their intentions better

[kwaichang]

Thank you psycho mantis for prooving my point, also lets not forget the teaching of HUA TO POWWWW MASTER KILLER POW KC

[BlueTravesty]

The philosophical concepts of the Shaolin arts and others have alot to do with the systems them selves but many miss that aspect of the arts KC

I think many more miss the fighting aspect. The majority of martial arts in America are trained in a very non-or-half "alive" manner. Yes MA can be spiritual, but that's still only half of it. You need the fighting aspect in order to qualify it as a martial art. If you only do one or the other though, you're still better off than someone who only does a portion of both. Who wants to be a half-baked philosopher who can do forms but can't fight?

[kwaichang]

i THINK MANY OF YOU MISS MY POINT I am saying the philosophyof CMA much like those taught to Mushashi, and thus made him a great Swordsman, until he learned the Classics as taught by the Zen Monk Takuan. This opened a new vwnue by which to train thus releasing him to strike when necessary. Those of you who think you can reach the inner "secrets" of the MA are simply fools doing something resembling the MA. That is why most martial arts worth their salt have allowed the practitioner to be released from their bondage to life. Much like the Monks of Shaolin and the Yama Bushi of Japan. KC

[The Xia]

i THINK MANY OF YOU MISS MY POINT I am saying the philosophyof CMA much like those taught to Mushashi, and thus made him a great Swordsman, until he learned the Classics as taught by the Zen Monk Takuan. This opened a new vwnue by which to train thus releasing him to strike when necessary. Those of you who think you can reach the inner "secrets" of the MA are simply fools doing something resembling the MA. That is why most martial arts worth their salt have allowed the practitioner to be released from their bondage to life. Much like the Monks of Shaolin and the Yama Bushi of Japan. KC
You seem to be hung up on the whole Shaolin monk thing. Over the years, there have been many great Kung Fu fighters that aren't monks. In fact, there are many great fighters that practiced Shaolin based styles that weren't monks. To this day, there are still great martial artists that aren't monks. Besides, if you look at the Shaolin monks of both today and the past, you'll find that they all don't fit the ideal that many people expect them to.
There are benefits from martial arts besides fighting ability. I don't deny that. But when it comes down to it, shaving your head and telling koans won’t make you a better martial artist. Training hard will. I also think that the "philosophy" that many people espouse doesn't really reflect Mo Duk anyway. I think it's mostly a hodgepodge of David Carradine-esque fantasy esotericism that many people eat up because it makes them feel cool and special.

[kwaichang]

You are right, but we are talking about the ability to understand and perform the MA and yes be a better fighter. Example : You cant always fight head on you at times have to turn and let the force flow past you or side step this is a simple example of the Taoist concept there are many more that are much more complex. I will say this and this was told to me by a great fighter "If you dont know where you are going, then you wont be a good fighter, because you are too worried about your life" KC

[MasterKiller]

Yeah yeah yeah. And Bodhidharma taught them 3 exercises so they could meditate longer and those eventually evolved into Shaolin kung fu. :rolleyes:

[Lamassu]

What it all boils down to, is what the individual is striving for in his martial art. If all he wants to do is fight and learn how to fight, then that is what he'll focus on, if he's looking for mysticism and philosophical clout well there's plenty of that too. The important thing, though, is that he takes his training seriously and strives to become a better person because of it. I feel this current debate is a very old one masked in the trappings of martial arts, but it's still the same thing: religious mysticism versus atheist banality.

[The Xia]

I feel this current debate is a very old one masked in the trappings of martial arts, but it's still the same thing: religious mysticism versus atheist banality.
I don't think I'm talking about that at all. Yes there is such thing as Mo Duk/Wu De. Yes there are other benefits to martial arts besides fighting ability such as health, fun, etc. But I think when people get fortune cookie-ish about Kung Fu they remove themselves from reality. Not to mention it makes martial arts a laughing stock to the general public. I think that being a good Kung Fu person means training hard, right, and having Mo Duk/Wu De. I think that running around trying to be Kwai Chang Caine, and expecting others to do the same, is counterproductive to one's own martial growth. And the more people that do it, the more it effects the martial arts world. In my opinion, it’s a negative effect.

[KungFu Student]

I don't think I'm talking about that at all. Yes there is such thing as Mo Duk/Wu De. Yes there are other benefits to martial arts besides fighting ability such as health, fun, etc. But I think when people get fortune cookie-ish about Kung Fu they remove themselves from reality. Not to mention it makes martial arts a laughing stock to the general public. I think that being a good Kung Fu person means training hard, right, and having Mo Duk/Wu De. I think that running around trying to be Kwai Chang Caine, and expecting others to do the same, is counterproductive to one's own martial growth. And the more people that do it, the more it effects the martial arts world. In my opinion, it’s a negative effect.

Western society has trouble accepting spirituality as a whole. Not just eastern practices look at how people react to those that practice Wicca (Nothing personal if you practice this). If we cannot see it, or measure it scientifically, then we have a hard time accepting that it can exist. But I will agree with you, when I see someone trying to emulate the stereotypical "mystic monk” my first reaction is, "what a flake". However, it has been my experience that those who pass themselves off as mystical are the least qualified to be speaking on the subject.

[MasterKiller]

Western society has trouble accepting spirituality as a whole...If we cannot see it, or measure it scientifically, then we have a hard time accepting that it can exist.

This is incorrect. Western society has just as many X-Tian nutjobs, who cannot see, hear, or touch God, yet still believe enough to try to force my kids to pray to their God in a publically-funded school and write his name all over my go dd amn money.

[KungFu Student]

This is incorrect. Western society has just as many X-Tian nutjobs, who cannot see, hear, or touch God, yet still believe enough to try to force my kids to pray to their God in a publically-funded school and write his name all over my go dd amn money.

Calm down. I am not talking about faith in religion, and I am not going to disagree with what you stated. I should have stated practices that are more linked to M.A., like meditation, the movement of chi and so forth. I apologize for not being clearer.

[Lamassu]

eh... I see your point, but not everyone who studys martial arts believes in chi (qi) and when they talk to another martial artist who does, they think he's a flake even though chi (qi) has an ancient and often vital role (mostly in the internal arts). I don't see anyone's belief in chi (qi), for example, necessarily having a negative impact on the martial art community any more than say, roman catholics believing their eurcharist becomes the actual body and blood of christ. We may think that's silly, but it's still an integral part of their system of beliefs, just as chi (qi) is with martial arts (some not all).

Now, I agree there are some martial artists out there that hype up the whole david carradine fantasy "you must try harder grasshopper", but there are always going to be these types of people around, so what can you do?

[PangQuan]

however, if we speak of qi through more modern western scientifical descriptions, its more fully excepted and understood

you see this a lot, its just done on sectioned out small aspects of qi, such as when we speak of a constant increase in cardiovascular/arobic exercise to increase stamina, and get some more oxygen in your bloodstream during a work out to help burn calories. thats active use of qi that every one uses who works out. some people just dont want to see the bridge that closes the gaps between these two very different mindsets.

same deal, its just all broken down into individual aspects in western science. and with different names for each aspect of qi.

the chinese classically have used yinyang principle so its not seperated as such

[Lamassu]

You bring up a good point Pangquan. Although, there are still western martial artists out there that prefer the eastern interpretation; doesn't mean it should negatively impact the community. Also keep in mind that just because someone doesn't believe in the validity of spirituality doesn't mean they're not idiots who simply don't know the science behind chi (qi) and assume people who do believe in chi (qi) are flakes anyway.

[kwaichang]

You both miss my point. Lets assume for a moment that you guys can fight ??? Thats all well and good. So lets say you get into a fight on the street and you get your butts kicked with out the philosophical aspect you wont get your butts kicked you are just dead. Period.
If you think those who are (philosophical and strive as you say like Kwai Chang Caine) cant fight I am sorry you are wrong KC

[kwaichang]

History of Chinese Wushu

　

Wushu (or Kung fu) appeared in ancient China as early as 2,500 years ago. During the Spring and Autumn and the Warring States Periods (770 - 221BC), a method called Daoyin was evolved to promote health.

In a tomb of Western Han Dynasty (206BC - 24AD), discovered near Changsha in Hunan Province, a silk scroll was found on which figures were drawn in different postures -- sitting in meditation, bending, or squatting. At the end of Eastern Han Dynasty (25 - 220AD), a renowned medical doctor, Hua Tuo, created a set of exercises called Wuqinxi (Five Animals Play), mimicking the movements of animals. One of Hua's disciples, also a devotee of Wuqingxi, was said to have lived over 100 years. Wu Pu, another Hua's follower, was reputed to have sound teeth and acute hearing and sight at his late 80s. Hua Tuo's inventive work has a far-reaching influence on the history of Chinese Wushu.
So then he did have something to do with Shaolin KC

[The Xia]

You both miss my point. Lets assume for a moment that you guys can fight ??? Thats all well and good. So lets say you get into a fight on the street and you get your butts kicked with out the philosophical aspect you wont get your butts kicked you are just dead. Period.
What are you talking about? :confused:
If you are trying to say that someone who has the "philosophical aspect of martial arts" (which for many people seems to pretty much add up to acting like Bruce Leroy in varying degrees) will not die in a street fight where as someone who doesn't will, then that's just nonsense.

If you think those who are (philosophical and strive as you say like Kwai Chang Caine) cant fight I am sorry you are wrong KC
I don't think I have seen one respectable sifu that acts the way I’m talking about. I don't think I have seen one good fighter that acts that way either.

I think it’s time to put down the koolaid folks! :D

[MasterKiller]

You both miss my point. Lets assume for a moment that you guys can fight ??? Thats all well and good. So lets say you get into a fight on the street and you get your butts kicked with out the philosophical aspect you wont get your butts kicked you are just dead. Period.
If you think those who are (philosophical and strive as you say like Kwai Chang Caine) cant fight I am sorry you are wrong KC

So what you are saying is, even if you get your @ss kicked, you can at least take solace in the fact that you didn't completely waste your time because you got some half-baked philosophy to fall back on?

[kwaichang]

No I am saying that if the guy who kicks your a$$ does not follow a philosophical standard and apply it to his training then you are the two that will be dead. I am also saying that many great warriors apply philosophy to the MA btw the MA are supposed to be for self defense not self offense or werent you taught that. Also if you havent met someo9ne who applies a philosophical standard that can fight let me point out Bruce Lee Mushashi Jet Lee Jigoro Kano, Funikoshi Euishiba there are others in the annals of the history of MA KC

[The Xia]

No I am saying that if the guy who kicks your a$$ does not follow a philosophical standard and apply it to his training then you are the two that will be dead.
If you look into the past, more often then not, most martial philosophies seem to reflect the opposite. That being killing your opponent. Look at Bushido.

I am also saying that many great warriors apply philosophy to the MA btw the MA are supposed to be for self defense not self offense or werent you taught that.
Martial arts were created for fighting. They were used for many different types of situations. It was used for both self defense and offense. You seem to have a skewed view of martial arts history. Here is an excerpt from this article http://www.hungkuen.net/article-tangledroots.htm
It describes one of Kwong Wing Lam's sifus, Leung Wah Chew.

Sifu Wing Lam was introduced to his Ha Say Fu hung gar teacher, Leung Wah Chew, through a mutual friend. Sigung Leung would make house calls on their tiny apartment, always arriving by a different route. Since open floor space is scarce, they would practice on the rooftops above Hong Kong's crowded urban sprawl. They had the minimal resources for a school-just a teacher, a few students and a meeting time. Often, they fashioned the unique weapons of Ha Say Fu hung gar out of whatever they could acquire, usually substituting wood pieces for metal, just so they could transmit the teachings. Wing Lam never learned his teacher's complete martial lineage. Leung's reputation and skill were enough that he felt privileged to train under him.
Leung had connections with the "dark society" of Hong Kong, what we might call organized crime. He had a kung-fu school in Macao that he closed when he immigrated to Hong Kong. In Hong Kong, he was the boss of a major underground casino (gambling casinos are legal in Macao, but not in Hong Kong). His fighting skills were sharpened constantly by this business. Wing Lam remembers when Leung brought over a friend to assist coaching fighting skills. Although this fighter was impressive, the very next day he was ambushed in the streets of Hong Kong by a rival gang, who cut him to death with long Chinese watermelon knives. Wing Lam never again heard anything else about his teacher's notorious guest.
Leung Wah Chew was a good friend of another great master, Um Yue Ming. Together these martial brothers answered the challenge of the first Asian public kung-fu tournament of this century, the famous Chinese Taiwan Kuoshu (national art) Association Invitational of 1957. Competitors from Macao, Taiwan and Hong Kong sparred against each other, comparing a wide range of styles such as shaolin, choy li fut, yau kung moon, snake, white crane, mantis, law hron moon and more. Leung represented Ha Say Fu hung gar and Um represented hop gar. They joined 30 other competitors from Hong Kong. Unfortunately, neither placed very well. Since neither had trained with sparring gloves or tournament rules, both were eliminated before the finals. This loss did little to affect their pride. Um Yue Ming's school used a black lion for two consecutive Chinese New Years to collect lucky money. The black lion symbolizes an open martial challenge to duel with any and all comers. In those days, this was no idle boast. Such challenges seldom went unanswered. Eventually, Um immigrated to San Francisco where he opened a school and clinic on Powell street. Some say he overstepped his boundaries. In the 1970s, he was gunned down at the door of his school.
Wing Lam had heard that Leung recruited his students into dark society, however he never got the chance to find out the truth. After studying with Leung for five years, Wing Lam immigrated to the United States, possibly escaping a life of crime.
Doesn’t fit into this neat little belief system about martial arts history that you seem to have huh?

Also if you havent met someo9ne who applies a philosophical standard that can fight let me point out Bruce Lee Mushashi Jet Lee Jigoro Kano, Funikoshi Euishiba there are others in the annals of the history of MA KC
Bruce Lee pretty much used bits of various Eastern philosophies during a time when many Westerners who had not been previously exposed to them were starting to take an interest. As a martial artist, I’m not saying he sucks. He clearly had skills. However, I have not seen any evidence of him being a great fighter. I’ve heard about him losing more then anything else. Musashi was a killer. I don’t think his code would fit into what you seem to define as proper martial arts philosophy. Jet Li is first and foremost an actor and wushu performer. Jigoro Kano, from what he wrote, seemed interested in creating a fun and healthy martial art that can be enjoyed in sport form. There’s nothing wrong with that but where’s this philosophy you speak of? You mention Gichin Funakoshi. I remember reading in a few places that he was part of the jingoist political machine that dominated Japan at that time. And by all accounts I’ve read, he was not a fighter. That in mind, who cares what he has to say? Morihei Ueshiba was always a bit peculiar to me as I’ve heard many different versions of what he was about.
All that aside…
I'm not saying that martial artists have not adopted philosophies over the years. I'm saying that the modern half-baked nonsense that many people call philosophy neither reflects anything historical nor, in my opinion, is something worth following anyway.

[MasterKiller]

No I am saying that if the guy who kicks your a$$ does not follow a philosophical standard and apply it to his training then you are the two that will be dead.

How the hell are you supposed to control the other guy's training? And who cares, anyway? You should be training to handle this guy regardless of his possible philosophical bent. :rolleyes:

[NastyHaggis]

My Internet-Style-Kung-Fu is stronger than your Keyboard-Style-Wushu!

Wahtahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

:rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

The philosophical concept of the HUNG KUEN guy was crime therefore it did not exist. A;so you have a scewed concept of Funikoshi Euishiba went to Manchuria and trained there as well. Mushashi wrote the philosophical book Go Rin No Sho or havent you heard of it ?? The philosophy of Jigoro Kano was found in the system. Judo has not always been a sport. Also the main focus of Bushido is to serve and to use only what force is necessary. It is apparant that you lack understanding and do not see. I am not trying to change your mind but if you think the MA are just for fighting and that is what they were created for you are silly. If you train to fight a guy the hardest man to beat is one who understands not only the how but the why also. KC

[kwaichang]

Gichin Funakoshi
Gichin Funakoshi was born in Shuri, Okinawa in 1868. As a boy, he was trained by two famous masters of that time. Each trained him in a different Okinawan martial art. From Yasutsune Azato he learned Shuri-te. From Yasutsune Itosu, he learned Naha-te. It would be the melding of these two styles that would one day become Shotokan karate.

Funakoshi-sensei is the man who introduced karate to Japan. In 1917 he was asked to perform his martial art at a physical education exhibition sponsored by the Ministry of Education. He was asked back again in 1922 for another exhibition. He was asked back a third time, but this was a special performance. He demonstrated his art for the emporer and the royal family! Atfer this, Funakoshi-sensei decided to remain in Japan and teach and promote his art.

Gichin Funakoshi passed away in 1957 at the age of 88. Aside from creating Shotokan karate and introducing it to Japan and the world, he also wrote the very book on the subject of karate, "Ryukyu Kempo: Karate-do". He also wrote "Karate-Do Kyohan" - The Master Text, the "handbook" of Shotokan and he wrote his autobiography, "Karate-Do: My Way of Life". These books and his art are a fitting legacy for this unassuming and gentle man.

Whenever the name of Gichin Funakoshi is mentioned, it brings to mind the parble of "A Man of Tao (Do) and a Little Man". As it is told, a student once asked, "What is the difference between a man of Tao and a little man?" The sensei replies, "It is simple. When the little man receives his first dan (degree or rank), he can hardly wait to run home and shout at the top of his voice to tell everyone that he made his first dan. Upon receiving his second dan, he will climb to the rooftops and shout to the people. Upon receiving his third dan, he will jump in his automobile and parade through town with horns blowing, telling one and all about his third dan".

The sensei continues, "When the man of Tao receives his first dan, he will bow his head in gratitude. Upon receiving his second dan, he will bow his head and his shoulders. Upon receiving his third dan, he will bow to the waist and quietly walk alongside the wall so that people will not see him or notice him".

Funakoshi was a man of Tao. He placed no emphasis on competitions, record breaking or championships. He placed emphasis on individual selfperfection. He believe in the common decency and respect that one human being owed to another. He was the master of masters.


by R. Kim

The calligraphy at the right is by the master; that at the left is by Asahina Sogen, chief priest of the temple, and reads, "Karate ni sente nashi" (There is no first attack in karate

You apparently write BS as a reflection of your statement about Funakoshi.
Why make up stuff?? KC

[Meat Shake]

Yup.
Sure does.

I have known a few monks in my time... I could kick all of their asses at once, and Im not even kidding.
...
But Ill be d@mned if they werent some of the most wonderful and kind hearted people I have ever known.

And philosophy in and of itself has nothing to do with fighting. Your training philosophy may explain why you did or didnt get your ass kicked, but not your belief in god or lack thereof.

[B-Rad]

This thread blows.
After 315 pages you're just now realizing this? :D

[The Xia]

How the hell are you supposed to control the other guy's training? And who cares, anyway? You should be training to handle this guy regardless of his possible philosophical bent. :rolleyes:
I agree.

The philosophical concept of the HUNG KUEN guy was crime therefore it did not exist. A;so you have a scewed concept of Funikoshi Euishiba went to Manchuria and trained there as well. Mushashi wrote the philosophical book Go Rin No Sho or havent you heard of it ?? The philosophy of Jigoro Kano was found in the system. Judo has not always been a sport. Also the main focus of Bushido is to serve and to use only what force is necessary. It is apparant that you lack understanding and do not see. I am not trying to change your mind but if you think the MA are just for fighting and that is what they were created for you are silly. If you train to fight a guy the hardest man to beat is one who understands not only the how but the why also. KC
Philosophy or no philosophy, Leung Wah Chew did Kung Fu and fought with it. He is not the only figure in Kung Fu history that wouldn’t fit what seems to be your standard of what martial arts are. You mention Morihei Ueshiba's stay in Manchuria. I think his experiences there are probably where the war criminal accusations came from (class G war crimes to be precise). And I think you should take more of a look at Bushido before making a sweeping statement like that. Bushido varies according to individual and time period. Here’s an interesting piece of trivia for you, at a certain time, according to one version of Bushido (which was the version that happened to be accepted by the government at the time), if a peasant insulted a Samurai that Samurai had the right to chop off his head. This is a fact. Do you call that necessary force?

You apparently write BS as a reflection of your statement about Funakoshi.
Why make up stuff?? KC.
I didn't make that information up. If you want, you can read what Choki Motobu, a Karateka known for fighting, thought of him.
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_noble1_0200.htm

When Motobu came up to Tokyo, Gichin Funakoshi had already been teaching there for several years, and a certain amount of ill-feeling arose between the two men, who had known each other back in Okinawa. It was something like a question of who was to assume the leadership of karate in Japan, but really, the two men were incompatible personalities. Gichin Funakoshi for instance seemed to feel that Motobu did not really understand the true nature of karate. Funakoshi, a man who valued propriety and culture, criticised Motobu's lack of education -- he called him an illiterate -- and his rough behaviour. For his part, Choki Motobu said that Funakoshi's art was just imitation karate, not much more than a dance. A Japanese karate teacher named Fujiwara has also pointed out that in the rigid social ranking system of Okinawa, Choki Motobu was two classes higher than Gichin Funakoshi was and so it was impossible for him to regard Funakoshi as his superior in any way.

I don't know if much ever came of all this, but there were rumours. Yasuhiro Konishi, who studied with both masters, heard that one time when the two men met, they began comparing techniques of attack and defence, as Okinawans often do. In demonstrating a movement Funakoshi was unable to block Motobu's thrust completely and moreover was knocked back several feet by its force. Konishi heard that Funakoshi was resentful about this. There was also a rumour that Motobu had challenged Funakoshi to a match and when the two met, he swept Funakoshi to the floor and followed up with a punch to the face, which stopped a couple of inches short -- just to show who was boss, I guess. Konishi could not vouch for the truth of this, and it may never have happened. Reading all the available material on Gichin Funakoshi, he does not come over as the type of person who went in for challenge matches -- just the opposite in fact. However, if the two men ever had met in a serious contest then (this is just my opinion) Motobu would probably have won rather easily. For one thing, Funakoshi, who was only 5 foot tall, was slightly built and would have been heavily outweighed. For another, Funakoshi never became involved in fights, whereas Motobu had the experience of numerous street fights behind him and was a fighter by nature.

And philosophy in and of itself has nothing to do with fighting. Your training philosophy may explain why you did or didnt get your ass kicked, but not your belief in god or lack thereof.
I think that pretty much sums it up. I feel there is great value in Mo Duk. I just don’t like the nonsense that’s passed off as philosophy and history but is really nothing more then a shallow fantasy. Through training and acquiring a certain level of skill, you get other benefits besides the ability to fight. Then there are also certain systems of honor that martial artists have followed and still follow. However, if you look at these systems you will find that they don’t really fit the fantasy mold that people have created.

[NastyHaggis]

I think perhaps this discussion belongs in another thread, as it has veered away from Shaolin-Do, which is the topic of this thread. I appreciate your fervency with the current topic-du-jour, but it is really not about Shaolin-Do. Perhaps Gene could move this discussion to an appropriate forum?

[Lamassu]

I agree, so allow me to steer the conversation back to Shaolin Do. *ahem* Shaolin Do is the most awesomest martial art in the entire world and nothing comes remotely close to it's kewlness!!! :D

[kungfujunky]

I agree, so allow me to steer the conversation back to Shaolin Do. *ahem* Shaolin Do is the most awesomest martial art in the entire world and nothing comes remotely close to it's kewlness!!! :D


lmao

classic

[ninthdrunk]

How many of y'all are going to be in Kentucky for the seminar? I'd like to put a few more faces with names.

I'm pretty pumped about it, but to be honest, I'm more excited about second ground monkey, which seems to keep being just out of my reach!

[kungfujunky]

i wont be there

but i will be seeing ground monkey in sept! cant wait!

hey who had the question on white monkey steals the peach?

[kungfujunky]

Alright.....apps time....

Anyone have White Monkey Steals the Peach?

At the beginning of section 2, when you turn and flourish to the right hip,
then step forward with the left foot and flourish.....


I was told this was a sweep. Didn't have it demonstrated, b/c at the time I was just trying to memorize the movements.

Does anyone know how this works? It's unlike anything I've seen so far.


just saw this last month and have it down solid
yes


it is an uprooting sweep with a wrist trap or arm trap to get them to the ground. then you do that whole sequence as they are down.

i know because i was his guinea pig lol

[NastyHaggis]

Here's a beginner's question for you (perhaps JP might chime in since we have the same instructors) because I'm just a blue sash:

In "Fei Foo Hu Tung" (Black Tiger Comes Out From The Cave), the yellow sash form, after the roundhouse kick, and before the cat stance, when you move your left leg forward to the cat stance, is that SUPPOSED to be a sweep? I seem to recall hearing that, but I don't see anyone doing that. They just move their leg to a cat stance.

Thanks for helping out a lowly blue sash!

[Lamassu]

Here's a beginner's question for you (perhaps JP might chime in since we have the same instructors) because I'm just a blue sash:

In "Fei Foo Hu Tung" (Black Tiger Comes Out From The Cave), the yellow sash form, after the roundhouse kick, and before the cat stance, when you move your left leg forward to the cat stance, is that SUPPOSED to be a sweep? I seem to recall hearing that, but I don't see anyone doing that. They just move their leg to a cat stance.

Thanks for helping out a lowly blue sash!

I've always felt that the leg work is to simply move into position as you clear your opponent's grab from your right arm.

[Lamassu]

How many of y'all are going to be in Kentucky for the seminar? I'd like to put a few more faces with names.

I'm pretty pumped about it, but to be honest, I'm more excited about second ground monkey, which seems to keep being just out of my reach!

Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it. I have a couple of weddings to go to later in the spring (including my own :D ), so my pennies will be for plane tickets and wedding stuff.

[Flaca]

:eek:

Yup.
Sure does.

I have known a few monks in my time... I could kick all of their asses at once, and Im not even kidding.
...
But Ill be d@mned if they werent some of the most wonderful and kind hearted people I have ever known.

And philosophy in and of itself has nothing to do with fighting. Your training philosophy may explain why you did or didnt get your ass kicked, but not your belief in god or lack thereof.
Wow. "philosophy has nothing to do with fighting?". How about "philosophy determines whether you'll get into a fight in the first place".
Discussions of god may certainly have a place in philosophy, but those discussions are part of a very broad topic. Philosophy determines how one lives ones life, how one treats others, how generous one is, whether one is faithful, loyal, obnoxious, etc.
I think it's clear from the postings on here from SD folks vs non SD folks that it is our philosophy that makes us different. We (SD folks) will have discussions, but consider the higher moral ground to be avoidance of a fight(not sparring, I too love a nice sparring match...). SDers are almost always polite and respectful; non SDers are usually polite, but most of the negative/combative/bellligerent/aggressive comments on this forum are made by them.
Peace

[kungfujunky]

Here's a beginner's question for you (perhaps JP might chime in since we have the same instructors) because I'm just a blue sash:

In "Fei Foo Hu Tung" (Black Tiger Comes Out From The Cave), the yellow sash form, after the roundhouse kick, and before the cat stance, when you move your left leg forward to the cat stance, is that SUPPOSED to be a sweep? I seem to recall hearing that, but I don't see anyone doing that. They just move their leg to a cat stance.

Thanks for helping out a lowly blue sash!

flying tiger comes out of the cave

the leg movement can be a sweep but if anything it is for uproot only. not a full sweep as you are about to triple attack. it would be an unbalancing sweep so your kick and punches have a better affect.

honestly though that form is just a straightforward advance and attack form. not a lot of flashy stuff.

wait till brown belt for all the cool sweeping forms.

you'll love them!

[Judge Pen]

Here's a beginner's question for you (perhaps JP might chime in since we have the same instructors) because I'm just a blue sash:

In "Fei Foo Hu Tung" (Black Tiger Comes Out From The Cave), the yellow sash form, after the roundhouse kick, and before the cat stance, when you move your left leg forward to the cat stance, is that SUPPOSED to be a sweep? I seem to recall hearing that, but I don't see anyone doing that. They just move their leg to a cat stance.

Thanks for helping out a lowly blue sash!

'Fei' is flying and 'Hu' is tiger. As for your technique, it can be a type of sweep (as kfj mentioned). My particular application for that technique is pulling your opponent into your knee. It will work in the sequence of the form is you think of the principle of not letting go of your opponent once you get a hold of him. You are also dropping your weight straight down after you hit that cat stance. Can you visualize what I'm talking about NH?

[NastyHaggis]

Yes JP, I can visualize it.

I appreciate the help. THIS is one of the things that makes our system special: the willingness to help each other out, and higher ranks not acting all high and mighty towards lower ranks (like me).

[The Xia]

I think perhaps this discussion belongs in another thread, as it has veered away from Shaolin-Do, which is the topic of this thread. I appreciate your fervency with the current topic-du-jour, but it is really not about Shaolin-Do. Perhaps Gene could move this discussion to an appropriate forum?
This thread is filled with off-topic discussion. I compared this thread to a bar once. How can you tell a bunch of guys at a bar to stick to one topic?

Wow. "philosophy has nothing to do with fighting?". How about "philosophy determines whether you'll get into a fight in the first place".
You could be the most peaceful person in the world and be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Discussions of god may certainly have a place in philosophy, but those discussions are part of a very broad topic. Philosophy determines how one lives ones life, how one treats others, how generous one is, whether one is faithful, loyal, obnoxious, etc.
What does any of that have to do with how to fight?

I think it's clear from the postings on here from SD folks vs non SD folks that it is our philosophy that makes us different. We (SD folks) will have discussions, but consider the higher moral ground to be avoidance of a fight(not sparring, I too love a nice sparring match...). SDers are almost always polite and respectful; non SDers are usually polite, but most of the negative/combative/bellligerent/aggressive comments on this forum are made by them.
Peace
Avoidance of a fight isn’t necessarily a decision based on morality. It can also be a decision based on pragmatism. Or it could be both. It could also be a flight response. It depends on the person. And sometimes there’s no avoiding it. Still, what philosophy are you talking about?

[MasterKiller]

:eek:

Wow. "philosophy has nothing to do with fighting?". How about "philosophy determines whether you'll get into a fight in the first place".

Sometimes, the fight comes looking for you and it's not your choice. You are either ready or you are not...doesn't matter what your personal philosophy on engagement is.


THIS is one of the things that makes our system special
Well, that and the fuzzy grandmaster.

[Lamassu]

Well, that and the fuzzy grandmaster.

Hell yeah! :D

[NastyHaggis]

1. I don't care what other threads do, a thread is **supposed** to stay on topic. One shouldn't look at other threads gone awry and say, "Well if it's okay for that one it's okay for this one." That's a very self-serving viewpoint and is just an excuse to be lazy in an established forum thread instead of taking it to the proper thread (or private email).

2. This ISN'T a bar, it is a thread about Shaolin-Do. Compare it all you want to, but it's not a bar.

[MasterKiller]

All the n00bs are getting upset! :mad:

[The Xia]

1. I don't care what other threads do, a thread is **supposed** to stay on topic. One shouldn't look at other threads gone awry and say, "Well if it's okay for that one it's okay for this one." That's a very self-serving viewpoint and is just an excuse to be lazy in an established forum thread instead of taking it to the proper thread (or private email).

2. This ISN'T a bar, it is a thread about Shaolin-Do. Compare it all you want to, but it's not a bar.
First of all, I said that this thread (not others) has lots of off-topic discussion. Secondly, I think you are taking this stuff way too seriously. :rolleyes:

[NastyHaggis]

My tone didn't come across the Internet. I'm not upset, nor am I taking this too seriously. I just made a suggestion, you responded, and I rebutted. That's all.

:D

[kwaichang]

The Move in Fe Hu Chu Tung is a double arm twist with a sweep due to the fact that the body is off balanced. Of course this is the Taoist philosophical approach to the Move. KC

[KungFu Student]

The Move in Fe Hu Chu Tung is a double arm twist with a sweep due to the fact that the body is off balanced. Of course this is the Taoist philosophical approach to the Move. KC

Ug. What does philosophy have to do with the move? Or are you trying to be humorous?

[Lamassu]

Is Fe Hu Chu Tong a mantis set?

If it is, then you guys have the name wrong.

Why would a tiger be flying?

It is either

Hak Fu Chu Tong

or

Hei Hu Chu Tong

Depending on which dialect your speaking, either way it is Black Tiger Exits the Cave. There are a number of black tiger sets in mantis, influenced by the Shantung Black Tiger system. I have never heard of a "flying tiger" system.

The only set I know in Mantis that uses the word flying is Fei Yan Chang, Flying Goose Palm.

Fei Hu Chu Tung is actually part of the Mountain Tiger set. The first Mantis form we learn is Luo Han Chuen.

As for a tiger flying, it's a loose translation, it's actually leaping out of the cave (or it's flying a very short distance :D )

[Judge Pen]

Fei Hu Chu Tung is actually part of the Mountain Tiger set.

As for a tiger flying, it's a loose translation, it's actually leaping out of the cave (or it's flying a very short distance :D )


That's right. I've never known it to be described as a black tiger set.

[tattooedmonk]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This guy is from Shaolin-Do isn't he?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nPMbU63Y6Gg

Is this also Shaolin-Do?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GncI4c47iXw[/QUOTE] yes to the first one no to the second

[tattooedmonk]

Ug. What does philosophy have to do with the move? Or are you trying to be humorous?you are kidding right?? philosophy and the principles of Taoism, Buddhism , Confucianism , and Shamanism are majorly important to understanding CMA and Life.

[tattooedmonk]

So you guys don't know where mountain tiger comes from?

Its kind of funny that the only references anywhere to mountain tiger or flying tiger are from the Shaolin Do people, you would think that if it was shaolin based some other shaolin practitioners would have heard of it. Get over your self. Who have you asked about it?? You know that many of the so called shaolin forms that are taught as Shaolin now are not even originally Shaolin ?? I do not recall exactly where it came from I will have to look into my notes. I believe that it is from the Water Margin Golden Tiger system . A name on a form does not neccesarily indicate a specific system or style. Give everyone a break we are not all sitting here waiting all day just to answer your questions.

[Lamassu]

I'm sorry Psycho Mantis, but we never said there was a 'Flying Tiger' system in Shaolin, so you can drop that right now. We say there's a 'Mountain Tiger' system within Shaolin Do that originated from the temple in the Honan province. Whether you accept that or not is really irrelevent, because all this is going to do is end up in a circular argument. If you don't like Shaolin Do, that's fine, whatever floats your boat, but you can't really expect to effect any change in our curriculum since nobody here on this forum created these styles in the first place.

[kwaichang]

I sit here watching all these historian wanna bees spouting off about what they think they know about.
1. You are arguing over a loose translation that was probably spelled in a way so country folk could say it. How stupid is that. The point is is the move is a X arm lock with a sweep from the golden fling cat tiger system of the shaolin temple of the lower bronx coming out of the alley with a garbage can. Get a life. KC

[MasterKiller]

Can someone post a video of either this form or Flying Goose Palm?

I'm curious because Little Tiger-Swallow (Xiao Hu Yan) is sometimes mistranslated as both Little Flying-Tiger Fist and also sometimes Little Flying Goose Fist.

[brucereiter]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This guy is from Shaolin-Do isn't he?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nPMbU63Y6Gg
the above link is sr master gary grooms. he runs the ga chinese shaolin centers shaolin do schools.




Is this also Shaolin-Do?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GncI4c47iXw yes to the first one no to the second[/QUOTE]

the second one is not part of the shaolin do system. this guy seems to have some good stuff though ...

[tattooedmonk]

the above link is sr master gary grooms. he runs the ga chinese shaolin centers shaolin do schools.


yes to the first one no to the second

the second one is not part of the shaolin do system. this guy seems to have some good stuff though ...[/QUOTE]




I know Master Grooms . I was the one that posted this in response to someone else's post.( yes to the first no to the second ).:cool: Master Grooms knows his Shiznit:D

[tattooedmonk]

I am aware that much of what is passed off as shaolin these days is not.

No such thing as the Water Margin Golden Tiger System in Shaolin or anywhere else.

No such thing as the Mountain Tiger or Flying Tiger either.

Its BS.Oh and because you say there is not then it must be , right??

As a matter of fact there are Water Margin Flying Tiger and Golden Tiger Styles maybe you should do a little more home work before you call bullshido.

I just threw this out there to see what responses I would get from you @$$holes.

Look on www.kungfu-taichi.com and you will find these styles. real wushu scholar

And to all you SD ers yes I know they are not the same but they have very similar structure and movements compared to our forms. Actually our forms look better and have greater content.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I am shocked, SHOCKED! that someone would suggest this thread is redundant. :p I liked the analogy that this thread is like an old pub that is filled with regulars talking about the same stuff everyday with the occassional outsider wandering in to add their two cents which will do nothing to change the minds of the regulars......

Yet manages to start a brawl, even though everyone's too drunk to get up, and too pizzed to throw a punch on target......

[Shaolin Wookie]

What happened to the good old days when students were respectful, teachers were dedicated to the student and not the dollar$$ ?? I am saddened by the lack of self discipline toward the spiritual and philosophical side of MA training. The total focus now is who can Kick whos as$.

About the respect....and the dollar$$.....
I think what happens is this: Most of us get into MA for philosophical, spiritual, and physical reasons.:cool: Some people just want to kick ass. I got into it for a more lasting kind of physical exercise that focused on breathing and meditation. But as in all things I do, I explored the depth of what I was doing during the first year and a half, and then said to myself----how can I get benefits from what I'm doing if I don't understand what it is I'm doing on a functional level (I.E.---actual fighting application)? I always poke at religious people, because they claim spiritual benefits from belief in something, and back it up with a holy book, yet have next to no familiarity with the holy book in question.....:eek: or often only on a very shallow level. When asked why I debunk western religion, I always reply: I don't believe it's sincere.

Sincerity is the root of martial arts study. It's about eating bitter(man, I love that phrase). Sincerity is what keeps you coming back for a beating, or coming back the next day despite the muscle pains from so much stretching and cardio. It's not the belief that tommorrow we're going to be invincible. It's recognition that if we push ourselves hard enough, it should be just as hard tommorrow as it was today, but we'll be better for it (hence, we eat more bitter). It's also what also gets us to question the root of SD. And when we examine the roots of SD, we have info that has no verification outside of our lineage holders. In order to validate this information for our own edification, we need outside sources. Why do we question for this kind of edification? We want the approval/recognition of others concerning the "truth" of our propositions. Nobody likes to feel like they're a part of a sham. I felt this way for a while. I know BD did (I think he had the same issues with SD that I did....and I just about left, too). When I took my first class with a Longfist teacher, and he watched me go through some basic motions, he said: "I see you have some martial training....what is it?" Well, I'd seen him go through some basic motions, and I saw that he was doing the same things I did, but with some structural differences......(more on this later).....and I didn't feel I could call it CMA per say.....maybe CMA'ish......so I replied: 'Kuntao' out of self-concious....I don't know....defeatism?.....maybe insecurity? Why?

I felt like in the admission, I was going to have to be responsible for the defense of SD's lineage, history, and forms, and such as I am a skeptic, it's not something I want to defend. But I do respect my instructor (a remarkable guy/MA who does care about his students [talked with me once for 2 hours and dismissed a bunch of phone calls to give me attention I'm now sure I didn't deserve, b/c I had been disrespectful towards him, his art, and his masters.....which I only realize now:o .....]

It's a clash between East and West. West--question, freedom of speech and thought, pursuit of truth. East---question internally, guard your feelings, present false fronts in public, take truth from those in power at the expense of personal feelings.

So what we all know that is not what this stuff is all about. Shoot if it were all of us would just carry a bigger gun. Those who question the art they have chosen to study and doubt the integrity of the Grand Master in my opinion should just leave. Well I guess I have opened a new can of worms. I can tell you though when I started to train in 1971 it was different and what we were taught meant something it was about learning not many of the things focused on here. BTW TWS no answer about August I guess you arent up to it. KC

I think that is why some people just leave. Some of us don't question the art directly by posing questions to those "in the know" because we see the level of devotion to GM Sin The' expressed by so many students and instructors, and yet those of us who doubt it begin to think: "This is just like Scientology (it's not....I hate Scientology [I ****ed some of 'em off and they harrassed me at work, nearly getting me fired:mad: ].....how can they believe these stories?" So we feel like outsiders. It isn't cowardice that keeps us from questioning GM The' and SD in front of Masters. It's just some good ole good manners. We see people enjoy their stories and art. Who are we to criticize? I don't think it's disrespectful at all. BoulderDawg.....I feel ya bro'.....but trust me.....the info's out there if you ask the right guys. So, some of us just slink off to search other venues for martial knowledge. But it's the same at other schools. Well, kind of.....except for the hairy monks and titty swimming....hehe....

But for all skeptics, like myself, it boils down to a couple of questions: do I enjoy what I'm doing?

I do. Therefore I continue to do it.

Can I learn what I want somewhere else?

Nope. Not what I want....drunken.....:D

Is it better at other schools?

Not really, just different. And each school is different than any other one.

[Shaolin Wookie]

eh... I see your point, but not everyone who studys martial arts believes in chi (qi) and when they talk to another martial artist who does, they think he's a flake even though chi (qi) has an ancient and often vital role (mostly in the internal arts). I don't see anyone's belief in chi (qi), for example, necessarily having a negative impact on the martial art community any more than say, roman catholics believing their eurcharist becomes the actual body and blood of christ. We may think that's silly, but it's still an integral part of their system of beliefs, just as chi (qi) is with martial arts (some not all).



East vs. West. PErsonally, when I heard my Longfist teacher tell me I had to do this or that to avoid internal damage to certain organs, or breathe this way or that in order to preserves certain organs, I had to keep from rolling my eyes.

This, to me, is kind of like hte mythos of MA. Some of you will disagree. Karate guys make the same motions, and some of them will be just as functional into old age as CMA "chi" guys are. Only, they didn't have fantastical notions of the cosmic effects of their MA practice on the universe as a whole (and therefore probably got more substance from their training). It's martial arts, people. The "chi flow" and "organ damage" quips seem to me irrelevant things, passed on by teachers who were taught that their way is the best way, and therefore press more importance into each motion than they probably should.

But what do I know? I'm a rook.

My Longfist teacher (who I have to quit, b/c I picked up a lucrative mural commission....sweet), told me he had perfect eyesight due to his chi flow. He said mine was blocked, and would fix my eyes if I could get the qi flowing. Well....how is chi going to change the shape of my eyes?

Physical consitution is a matter of the genetic lottery. And acupuncture can't cure brain cancer.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's a beginner's question for you (perhaps JP might chime in since we have the same instructors) because I'm just a blue sash:

In "Fei Foo Hu Tung" (Black Tiger Comes Out From The Cave), the yellow sash form, after the roundhouse kick, and before the cat stance, when you move your left leg forward to the cat stance, is that SUPPOSED to be a sweep? I seem to recall hearing that, but I don't see anyone doing that. They just move their leg to a cat stance.

Thanks for helping out a lowly blue sash!

I got this motion as a kind of "circle step", which I suppose I see how it could be confused/used as a sweep. But it's realy just a kind of weight transitioning technique. You're moving from tiger-bow to tiger-bow, and the circle step allows you to feel out the ground in front of you without committing to a step that might not be in your best interest in a fight where you might advance in such a manner (I like to advance in that manner):D . More important is the motion of the hands during that "circle stepping". When done correclty, it provides a method of creating an angle of attack (kind of like an ippon). So the leg kind of circles around (as in a short transition to a low cat then forward into a bow.

[kwaichang]

It is the people who are insincere not the relidion. Familiarity with a book without the WORD is a waste of time. It boils down to Faith.
I have looked at outside sources and have found the Truth I was searching for, no need to look further. I have been criticized as being Philosophical and notice that none still understand what I am trying to say.
In the Japanese Okinawan arts thyere is the concept of breathing correctly or you can damage internal organs in the process of training. I can explain later. It boils dopwn to physiology and anatomy.
Scepticism is good if you are seeking truth , but when you have it no need to be tooooo sceptical or you miss the truth. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Well, I had my first session with GM Sin The' as he taught Atlanta the Golden Leopard (1st road) last night.

Although I had mellowed out some since I opened my can of worms, I watched him intensively for various reasons (critically, IMO). My Longfist teacher had impressed upon me the importance of structure in weight transitions, and the paramount importance of footwork, etc....and it improved me by leagues and miles. It was something I'd never gotten much of in SD, and hadn't seen in some people. I suppose I wanted to verify that that part of training....so integral to good MA and stances, in my opinion....was there at teh source. So I spent the entire 2 hours looking at GM Sin The's footwork to see if it was, indeed, what I had seen in "authentic" Shaolin Chuan classes, whihc I had from a Chinese dude who was about GM The's age.

Well, it was. GM Sin The' has superb footwork. Better than my Longfist teacher, in point of fact. Although I had major ethical/philosophical disagreements with GM Sin The' on the issue of expanding human lifespans, and genetic engineering (something that the Demosthenian in me desperately prodded me to interrupt and say....well, think about this keemosabee:D, yet failed to do b/c it wasn't a forum for argument and debate ), his MA are excellent, even at his age (I have a grandfather, who at 70 looks like he's on the brink of death---and GM Sin looks like he's in his 50's:eek: .......so maybe there is something to what he's saying....):D . I think we'd have an interesting chat on the issue of genetics, western medicine, and writing. I'm diametrically opposed to his takes on every one of those issues.....:D .....but it would be fun. I love to argue with people, b/c it's actually conversation with a purpose, ya know?

Anyways, I don't remember much of the form (although it has much of the same motions as short forms, tigers, spinning clears of china hands, and WhiteMSTPeach...just 10X faster)...so it won't be hard to piece together later on.

The man is definately for real.

I think the coolest part of the weekend, however, was when one of the instructors of my instructors showed up to learn the form (from Phoenix) and helped teach our brown belt class. He gave me great pointers on tumbling.

And then.........he fought out of a broken leg stance. We've been talking about that stance lately on this forum. Well, this dude could fight out of it. If you kicked him, he'd pop the knee with a palm heel (really friggin hard) and stop the attack like a kneetrap. A roundhouse? Again, trapped at the knee, then a series of leg/ankle locks on a takedown (impressive groundfighting in CMA).....and it has mobility in the form of rolling. Flip that back ankle, so the bottom of hte foot pulls in, and you can roll around. It was really friggin' cool, and.....birdlike.

Then, it was his choice to practice chin-na. I've always thought my chin-na was good, and it prepped me for defense.

I found out I was wrong. He would wrench our joints and muscles to the point of pain where we normally tap out. Then he said: "Okay, now we can start. This is how the attack will be presented in reality." Well, I couldn't do the basics with that kind of pressure. Surprise....surprise....and I usually apply chin-na harder than others. The master of my school does chin-na this way, but few others do. Then he showed us the nuances of motion and body mechanics that make slipping out of holds so effortless and fluid. It was a real mind job.

Well, he showed our class how to do them properly when applied realistically (how I'll train them from now on, even with newbs)....and how to control for hte sake of retribution.....:D .....(ahhh....sweet retribution...one of the things I focus on in chin-na...keeping the holds intact for that sake).

Holy ****....I learned a lot this weekend that totally changed my view on practice, application, and movment.......and SD in general. And that strange broken leg stance......wow, you gotta love it.

[KungFu Student]

you are kidding right?? philosophy and the principles of Taoism, Buddhism , Confucianism , and Shamanism are majorly important to understanding CMA and Life.

No, I am not kidding. Explain to me how a Taoist, Buddhist , Confucianist , and Shaman would perform the sweep and twist move that we are talking about.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Well, the Buddhist would do it with a bald head, the Taoist with a topknot, and the Shaman with a ring of lion's teeth and shrunken human heads on his forehead and neck.

[KungFu Student]

Well, the Buddhist would do it with a bald head, the Taoist with a topknot, and the Shaman with a ring of lion's teeth and shrunken human heads on his forehead and neck.

Heh, thanks for clearing that up.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Anyways.....I came onto this forum to find out if Shaolin-do was for real....just like the thread says.

Well, whether it is real Shaolin will never be settled, because nobody has consensus on what real Shaolin is. But it is definately for real.....in terms of fighting, mechanics, technique, and my general appreciation for it. GM The' is for real, but he's eccentric. Nothing wrong with that, as I'm a bit so myself. I answered all my questions, and I am formally taking my adieu of KFM online, since I don't have any more questions I feel need answering from anyone here, and I found something better to do at work.

I know, you're thinking, here's another "I'm gone forever," Lungushan type-post from someone who will be back tommorrow. Well, keep an eye on my Master of the Hydrospanner title. I'm gonna PM gene to ban me until he does.

From the soon to be banned Shaolin Wookie, good luck with your studies, and goodbye.

Oh, and **** you Masterkiller. I never really liked you. You're a smug little man and you treat people like they were idiots.......

Haha....quoted Tommy Boy....you David Spade-muthafrucker.

[ninthdrunk]

This is all just what I've heard from my teacher, and I may really paraphrase him incorrectly (which I'll admit if I'm called on it)

Flying tiger is actually one of the five sub-families of the Honan Tiger system, Mountain tiger being another. I'm sure that's not what traditional Shaolin people will say, but that's what I've been told, so at this point, I'll take it that any tiger I learn (other than Black Tiger, which is its own deal) is from one of those five "families."

As for the application, I've always just used/taught the leg application as a way to cover distance when your opponent is really close to you (in this instance, you're actually advancing to directly behind him). The arms I use as a neck break, 'cause that's what I was shown. Now, or course, in sparring, I just use that circular motion as a block to set up for the jump front kick...but in the form, the neck break just seems to fit so much better!

[MasterKiller]

Oh, and **** you Masterkiller. I never really liked you. You're a smug little man and you treat people like they were idiots........

Maybe when you actually get your black belt we can discuss this further...:rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

MK I have to agree you do come off as condesending KC

[kwaichang]

Martial Philosophy/History


If you think that martial arts are all about fighting, you are mistaken. All martial skills are developed to defend yourself, your loved ones and those who cannot defend themselves. In essence: "Learn the ways to preserve rather than destroy. Avoid rather than check; check rather than hurt; hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill; for all life is precious, nor can any be replaced." This has been the martial artist's credo, passed down from teacher to student for thousands of years. Historical records date back to the Chou Dynasty (1027 - 256 B.C.), the beginning of the Iron Age.

Huang Ti, China's first unifier (221 - 210 B.C.) prohibited the practice of martial arts for fear that the masses might rise up and destroy the empire. Martial arts were practiced in secret until 206 B.C. when Liu Pang, later known as Kao Tsu, assumed the throne of the Han Dynasty. Emperor Kao permitted the resumption of martial arts practice throughout the realm and they became a vital part of military training.

Unarmed defense principles were advanced through Zen (Ch'an) Buddhist religious practices during the sixth century. Bodhidharma, who was said to have traveled to China, spread the word of Zen Buddhist faith and is believed to be the father of Shaolin Temple Boxing. It is said that he introduced the monks to systematized exercises for strengthening the body and the mind, to endure prolonged mediation. Self-defense movements were devised later from Bodhidharma's knowledge of Indian fighting systems and thus the birth of Shaolin Kung Fu.

The greatest contribution to martial arts by the Taoists is without a doubt Tai Chi Chuan. The Taoist priest Chang Sen-feng, after spending ten years with the Shaolin Monks, retreated to Wu Dan mountain to pursue his search for immortality. After witnessing a fight between a snake and a crane, he developed a complete system designed to maintain health, calm the mind, and increase longevity - Tai Chi Chuan, "The Grand Ultimate Fist." The self-defense aspects became so effective that it was recognized as one of the superior schools of traditional Chinese "boxing".

This says alot of what I think KC

[BentMonk]

MK I have to agree you do come off as condesending KC

I wouldn't say MK is condescending. He is out spoken and blunt. I see nothing wrong with that. I may not like everything he says, but I respect him. Of course he can't whoop me, but I still respect him. :D

[kwaichang]

MK I believe has said or aluded to " You have to earn Respect" so why should you respect him , of course that is his Idea of respect. KC

[kwaichang]

Ug. What does philosophy have to do with the move? Or are you trying to be humorous? No the Taoists Philosophy is Yin Yang or harmony utilizing circular concept in this case unlike the Neck break talked about earlier that is more Buddhist. KC

[MasterKiller]

MK I have to agree you do come off as condesending KC

Hi, pot. I'm kettle.


MK I believe has said or aluded to " You have to earn Respect" so why should you respect him , of course that is his Idea of respect. KC
Nope. That wasn't me. But if you're looking for respect on an internet message board, I would say your priorities in life need to be adjusted.


Of course he can't whoop me, but I still respect him.
I dunno. You just won 2nd at the Arnold's, didn't you?;)

[kwaichang]

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;744610]Hi, pot. I'm kettle.


Nope. That wasn't me. But if you're looking for respect on an internet message board, I would say your priorities in life need to be adjusted.


Your Losing it MK you can do better than that I do not seek respect. That is ego KC

[The Xia]

Martial Philosophy/History


If you think that martial arts are all about fighting, you are mistaken. All martial skills are developed to defend yourself, your loved ones and those who cannot defend themselves. In essence: "Learn the ways to preserve rather than destroy. Avoid rather than check; check rather than hurt; hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill; for all life is precious, nor can any be replaced." This has been the martial artist's credo, passed down from teacher to student for thousands of years. Historical records date back to the Chou Dynasty (1027 - 256 B.C.), the beginning of the Iron Age.
Where is this credo from? If this credo does exist, it has certainly not been present in all Kung Fu lineages. Besides, martial arts have been used for offense many times throughout history. There is no denying this. I know of other credos that are far different from the one you quoted. In this article, http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=661
David Chin quotes, "When hunting a tiger, destroy it. Otherwise, a wounded tiger will return to harm you. When weeding a garden, pull up the roots. Otherwise, the weeds will grow back. Whether the lion is hunting an elephant or a rabbit, the lion always uses full force."
That's much different huh?
You seem to have a rose-tinted view of MA history.

Unarmed defense principles were advanced through Zen (Ch'an) Buddhist religious practices during the sixth century. Bodhidharma, who was said to have traveled to China, spread the word of Zen Buddhist faith and is believed to be the father of Shaolin Temple Boxing. It is said that he introduced the monks to systematized exercises for strengthening the body and the mind, to endure prolonged mediation. Self-defense movements were devised later from Bodhidharma's knowledge of Indian fighting systems and thus the birth of Shaolin Kung Fu.
I have not seen any evidence that Bodhidharma had knowledge of Indian martial arts. There are actually a lot of uncertainties out there regarding him.

The greatest contribution to martial arts by the Taoists is without a doubt Tai Chi Chuan. The Taoist priest Chang Sen-feng, after spending ten years with the Shaolin Monks, retreated to Wu Dan mountain to pursue his search for immortality. After witnessing a fight between a snake and a crane, he developed a complete system designed to maintain health, calm the mind, and increase longevity - Tai Chi Chuan, "The Grand Ultimate Fist." The self-defense aspects became so effective that it was recognized as one of the superior schools of traditional Chinese "boxing".
It's an opinion that Tai Chi Chuan is the greatest Taoist contribution to martial arts. Someone may like Bagua or some other art better.

This says alot of what I think KC
I disagree. I feel it’s skeletal and makes sweeping statements to the point that it compromises its accuracy. Where is this from by the way?

[kwaichang]

You just like to argue, go to google key in Philosophy and Martial arts PICK ONE you will find it I think there were like 10000 sites KC
BTW I have been training a long time and have used my stuff for real I am not rose colored by any means , what breath of experience do you have is it just book sense or real ?? KC

[The Xia]

I never said you are rose colored (which I think would actually be more of a comment on your skin tone then attitude towards martial arts lol). I said that your view of martial arts history seems rose-tinted. I'm pointing out that the assumption that martial arts were created and used only for self defense is inaccurate and that philosophies associated with martial arts throughout the ages vary and are often not what many people assume they are. I'm sure I can find plenty of articles on martial arts and philosophy if I do a search on it. Some of them will be decent works that accurately chronicle history or have something substantive to say and others will be politically correct nonsense with more holes then Swiss cheese. That's the nature of research.

[kwaichang]

I appreciate your last post. However let me say this. Most if not all MA (Traditional) that is has a foundation based upon a philosophical tenet. Shaolin Aikido Judo Karate Sumo Ju Jitsu they all have a greater philosophical approach. Those who train just for the sake of fighting tend to meet their match in their exploits and their learning is cut short. I feel that a good fighter can utilize the philosophical approach to combat and win. To enter into combat with no thought of self then the tools will strike freely with out hesitation. Why because you have no fear of Death the highest level and then you will be ready for anything. One of my 1st teachers said the hardest person to fight is the one that knows where he will be after death and prepares appropriately. Thus Philosophy or religion if you will KC

[Leto]

What was past is gone. Things change. It doesn't matter whether in ancient time martial arts had moral philosophies attached or not. It doesn't even matter if all the stories anyone has ever heard about the Shaolin temple are fiction. What are you doing now? Do you need to learn chuan fa and traditional weapons to protect your family and your town? Or to do your job, for employment? To go to war as a soldier? If not, then why are you doing it? These surely were the main reasons people wanted to know and develop martial arts in the past, when the myriad styles we have now were codified. Do you do it to preserve a family tradition, is it your heritage? Do you do it as a sport, to compete in contests? Maybe you practice because you have an interest in anthropology and culture, and want to do something that people of the past might have done.
The point is, martial arts are whatever we make them. No one can live in the past. Whether shaolin monks used martial arts as a form of spiritual practice or not...it's being done now. We decide what martial arts are.

[kwaichang]

Hey Xia I just got a new 120 # heavy bag so I can now hit it with a Taoist philosophical approach cant do Buddhist it might hurt the bag KC

[BlueTravesty]

Because the Taoist would be afraid of internal organ damage and the Buddhist would have no problem hitting an inanimate object as hard as they could?

Kidding aside, why would a "Buddhist" application have more harmful intent than a Taoist application? Buddhism has nonviolence at its very core; Taoism on the other hand, while not overtly violent, does not have as strong a proscription against violence. Just a thought.

[kwaichang]

Because, the Buddhist approach is with out violence only intent. So more force .without restraint of mind KC:)

[NastyHaggis]

After 8 years of trying, our first baby's on the way! He or she is due in the next 12 days.

For those of you who've had kids in Shaolin-Do or for those of you who have taught it, what's a good age to get the kids involved in it? My wife and I are both Black Belts from other styles and we definately want the kids involved.

[Meat Shake]

congrats.

Do the kid a favor, put him in capoeria until he is old enough to enroll in Judo, BJJ or the something similar.

[Judge Pen]

Of course I'm wondering the same thing. I just hope my daughter shown an interest.

[Baqualin]

congrats.

Do the kid a favor, put him in capoeria until he is old enough to enroll in Judo, BJJ or the something similar.

Do US a favor and go hang out on a BJJ forum....maybe you can help figure out the Gracie lineage.
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

Do US a favor and go hang out on a BJJ forum....maybe you can help figure out the Gracie lineage.
BQ.......NICE:D

[tattooedmonk]

The styles of the South Shaolin lineage have a reputation for their great effectiveness and power. This article gives an insight into what has made them this way, tracing their history to the legendary burning of the South Shaolin Temple in Fujian Province.


This article is not about any particular style within the South Shaolin family of martial arts, of which there are hundreds, and it is not meant as any kind of practical guide. Instead it is about the place and time that shaped these styles into what they are today.


Some would argue that martial arts are about action, not history – who cares where a style comes from if it is effective, right?


Wrong. In Chinese culture and in the East as a whole, heritage and ancestry are of paramount importance. In fact knowledge of and veneration for your ancestors is the greatest virtue in the Confucian canon and so it is in the martial arts world.


In practical terms this is embodied in the concept of a pattern. A pattern can be seen as an exercise in grounding yourself in certain basic principles, it can be seen as a form of shadow boxing, but it is also a method of transmitting the style’s heritage. This is best understood if you see a pattern as an object of art that has been crafted by each successive generation of masters, all of whom have left their unique signature on it. A skilled eye can see these signature features and trace the movements being performed back to the style’s originator. This is why patterns are so jealously guarded in China: they are the equivalent of the family silver!


Why such a long introduction? Because South Shaolin is unique in the world of Chinese martial arts. Being “martial” it is not surprising that styles are often created in times of violence and war, but no other style or family of styles can claim such a bloody and violent birth as the South Shaolin lineage.


There were actually not just one but three South Shaolin Temples, all located in different areas of Fujian Province:

The oldest was the Putian Temple, established in 557 AD, just 61 years after the mother temple in North China’s Henan Province.

The next was the Quanzhou Temple, established in the 9th century AD, after the Emperor of the Tang Dynasty sent a group of Shaolin monks south to protect the Fujianese coast from attacks by pirates.

The third Shaolin Temple was in Fuqing and was likely established at some point during the Song Dynasty (960-1279 AD)



History is confused about these three temples. It is not certain whether they existed all at the same time, or succeeded each other, or even which one of the three was the South Shaolin Temple immortalised in martial arts legend.


There is a good reason why this is so, for during the Qing Dynasty the South Shaolin Temple was destroyed so completely that not a single stone was left standing and the majority of historical records about it were burned. It can not even be verified when this took place: records are split between the dates 1674 and 1734, although the latter date is more probable.


Whenever it happened, the episode is one of the most important in the history of Chinese Martial Arts. It became a watershed, with styles created afterwards being distinctly different from all those that came before. The burning of the temple also entered folklore and became a subject of countless novels, plays and films. As such most people in the West, who know anything about Chinese Martial Arts, know about it (although they usually and mistakenly associate the burning with the Northern Temple on Songshan).


So why was the South Shaolin Temple burned down?


The reason has to do with invasion and rebellion and the all out war that was breaking out across the southern provinces of Guangdong and Fujian at that time.


Only a few decades prior, in 1644, China was at its lowest ebb. The Ming Dynasty that had ruled for three hundred years was weak, bloated and autocratic, the country was torn apart by rebellions and the last Emperor of the Ming committed suicide by hanging himself from a tree on a hill overlooking the Forbidden Palace. At this time China was invaded by the Manchu, a people whose homeland was to the North East of China’s traditional borders. It was in no condition to offer up any effective resistance against the invaders and within a few years most of China was under Manchu control – the Manchu Qing Dynasty began.


Only in the border provinces was there still resistance to the Manchu. Fujian, by virtue of its distance from the capital, its mountainous terrain and a long coast line, became the frontline in the resistance. At first this resistance was open, with the General Koxinga launching counterattacks against the Manchu strongholds further north, but by 1661, after suffering heavy defeats on the mainland, Koxinga retreated to Taiwan.


After his withdrawal resistance to the Manchu went underground and countless secret societies formed under the motto “Kill the Qing. Bring back the Ming.” Many of these societies had strong links with the South Shaolin Temple.


It is not surprising that the Shaolin Temple gave support to the rebels. In those days temples were political and military as well as religious institutions and Shaolin in particular had strong links to the Imperial Throne (ever since a thousand years previously a group of Shaolin monks saved the life of the second Emperor of the Tang Dynasty) and so it would be natural for the Temple to offer aid to remnants of the Ming Dynasty.


Here too there are contradicting stories. According to some, South Shaolin Temple offered protection to many rebel officers of the Ming, who enrolled in the temple as lay students after being defeated by the Qing. Other accounts say that after the establishment of the Qing Dynasty the monks at first tried to build bridges with the new Dynasty and even sent some of its fighters to support Qing troops in a campaign in the far west of China, but the only outcome of this was that the new masters of China became fearful of the temple’s power and influence.


Which ever is the case (and quite possibly the wily abbots were playing both sides at least in the beginning) the Manchu decided that the South Shaolin Temple was a threat to their rule and ordered for it to be burned and raised to the ground. Most of the monks the Manchu could lay their hands on were butchered. According to legend only five escaped – the five ancestors – though of course the open door nature of the Shaolin Temple meant that even if only five masters escaped on the night, there would have been hundreds around who had studied in the temple at some point before the destruction took place.


After the temple’s destruction, the survivors suddenly found themselves being driven underground, for the Manchu placed a prohibition on the open practice of martial arts. From this moment on martial arts in the South of China started to change and develop their own distinctive characteristics.


Demand for fighting skills was high in these dangerous times while at the same time enforced secrecy meant that there was less communication and cooperation between different masters across the province. In this environment hundreds of new styles were created, as each master was forced to set up on his or her own. Some of these styles, such as White Crane, Dog Style and the Five Ancestors Fist became widespread, gaining hundreds of followers. Others became closed family styles, transmitted in secrecy from father to son. This was far safer in a world where the mere act of practising your style could get you into trouble with the Manchu authorities.


In general these new styles emphasised simplicity and efficiency of movement, coupled with high destructive power. A student would want to get to a point where he could do some damage as soon as possible in his training, not knowing when his life might depend upon it. Harsh foundation training or Gong Fu was a key part of each style, building up the body to the point where it could generate and handle maximum power fast. As the saying goes: “In Fujian Shaolin no move without use.”


Practising in secret had its own results. For one thing, traditional military weapons were no longer allowed (at least in the open), so farming and other everyday tools were put to good use and new patterns were developed specifically for them. Another result was a general shortening of patterns – as training was often done behind closed doors where space and time were at a premium.


The fighters of the 18th and 19th centuries in South China did not just have the resistance to the Manchu to contend with. This was a period of great hardship and famines, communal strife and religious cults. The Taiping Rebellion in the mid 19th century, to name but one, is estimated to have cost over 20 million lives.


It is not surprising therefore that so many of the best known styles of traditional wushu practised today have their origins in this period and draw their lineage ultimately to the South Shaolin Temple. It is purely the law of supply and demand, tough times make for the best fighters.


Watch for the distinguishing features of the Southern Shaolin Styles: low powerful stances, fast and efficient arm movements, low kicks, a great emphasis on power generation and force spreading and by extension on breathing techniques, short, compact patterns. Then compare with a northern style, for example Chang Quan, to see the differences.

[kwaichang]

Hey Nasty where are you located KC

[NastyHaggis]

Hey KC, sent you a PM, check your inbox.

[Kung Pao]

So, I gather from an SD post on another thread that the fourth internal art has begun to be taught by Sin The....

So, what is it like? Does it feel like an incorporation of Tai Chi, Pa Kua, and Hsing-I? Or, is it something completely different in scope, etc. (being such as each of the other three internal arts are quite different in expression of power).

Just curious, as this art has been talked about by Shaolin Dokas for quite some time.

[kwaichang]

Like nothing I have ever seen in an internal system KC Awesome:) I feel sorry for those who quit SD prior to this time as we have learned so much over the last 3 to 4 years KC

[Baqualin]

So, I gather from an SD post on another thread that the fourth internal art has begun to be taught by Sin The....

So, what is it like? Does it feel like an incorporation of Tai Chi, Pa Kua, and Hsing-I? Or, is it something completely different in scope, etc. (being such as each of the other three internal arts are quite different in expression of power).

Just curious, as this art has been talked about by Shaolin Dokas for quite some time.

More closely related to Hsing I (same internal work) in being that it's not soft and flowing like Tai Chi or some Pakua's....multiple (12 to 28 continuous) high speed attacks to pressure points in all directions...360 degrees.....like a meteor shower.......very snake like and every attack is expressed with fajing.....also has kicks, sweeps and attacks from the ground.:D
BQ

[Kung Pao]

If it's snake-like, do you think it's a precursor to him teaching his snake style? From what I know, he's never taught in the style he claims that he's a master of.....

To be honest, the legitimacy of his system is probably dependent on him showing mastery of his master style....or so I gather from Shaolin Doka threads.

[kwaichang]

Golden Snake is reserved for the next Grand Master, I would think, or only for those who have shown complete dedication to him and SD. KC

[Baqualin]

If it's snake-like, do you think it's a precursor to him teaching his snake style? From what I know, he's never taught in the style he claims that he's a master of.....

To be honest, the legitimacy of his system is probably dependent on him showing mastery of his master style....or so I gather from Shaolin Doka threads.

To be honest, the main people who question the legitimacy of our system are people in the cyber world that know nothing about Shaolin Do and will never take the time to find out or talk face to face with GMS. Teaching the golden snake has nothing to do with anything except Golden Snake.....which by the way there's physical proof of his mastery of this particular system
40 years & still growing makes it pretty legit to me....how many styles can claim that

It's really kinda of sad that one of the first people to bring CMA to the states catches all the flak he does.....he should be appreciated for what he's done for CMA's down through the years.....That goes for you too Gene...you should give GMS a closer look...talk to him more in person....you might be surprised...he lives in your area now
BQ

[Baqualin]

Golden Snake is reserved for the next Grand Master, I would think, or only for those who have shown complete dedication to him and SD. KC

I would suspect the latter KC
BQ

[kwaichang]

BQL DO YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THIS i DONT? pm ME KC

[Meat Shake]

Golden Snake is reserved for the next Grand Master, I would think, or only for those who have shown complete dedication to him and SD. KC

Golden snake eh?
Yeah, I bet it can be you and sin the's little secret.

[kungfujunky]

Golden snake eh?
Yeah, I bet it can be you and sin the's little secret.

what a valuable post

man you need to troll somewhere else.

[Kung Pao]

I'm not trolling, I'm actually a little interested. I took some shaolin do awhile back. But once I recieved the 3 crane forms at brown belt, I moved on. I wanted more crane, they said there wasn't anymore except in seminar format, which we couldn't dictate, so I moved on and found a crane master. No hard feelings. I just knew what I wanted to study, and it wasn't what was on hte menu.

But the issue of Golden Snake(? his master style?): When I was younger and in college, I took physics, mathematics, chemistry, english, history, and the like. But I would only claim to be an authority in my major field, right? Why wouldn't I teach the one I had more experience in? It doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, and I'm not questioning his skill. I saw him multiple times in person, and even at a tourney or two doing exhibitions.:cool:

[Baqualin]

I'm not trolling, I'm actually a little interested. I took some shaolin do awhile back. But once I recieved the 3 crane forms at brown belt, I moved on. I wanted more crane, they said there wasn't anymore except in seminar format, which we couldn't dictate, so I moved on and found a crane master. No hard feelings. I just knew what I wanted to study, and it wasn't what was on hte menu.

But the issue of Golden Snake(? his master style?): When I was younger and in college, I took physics, mathematics, chemistry, english, history, and the like. But I would only claim to be an authority in my major field, right? Why wouldn't I teach the one I had more experience in? It doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, and I'm not questioning his skill. I saw him multiple times in person, and even at a tourney or two doing exhibitions.:cool:

Gms has his own master plan for teaching out the material....for the last 10 yrs. he's been building the internal side of the system...which now is offered seperately from the external side......you can't please everyone KP. My interest is in the internal, so I'm in heaven now...I'm getting everything I've dreamed of and more. That said, there's people in the system that are only interested in the external side and they would like more in that direction....everyone is different...we will get it all eventially....I'm sure we'll see Golden Snake someday when he feels it's time......like I said even with all this material you can't please everybody. I've been lucky enough to get what I'm interested in;)
BQ

[Baqualin]

Golden snake eh?
Yeah, I bet it can be you and sin the's little secret.

:p!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BQ

[kwaichang]

Yeah Meat Shake that is why you will never have anything, atttude. You trained in SanMarcos right then left couldnt take it. KC

[Leto]

Isn't it common for the master to reserve the "best" part of his style for family only, or for only select students? It may not seem to make sense to our western understanding, where we want to show everyone our best right away. But I know people who refuse to even talk about their family's art, never mind teach it to a bunch of strangers. Is it possible Sin The has this sensibility also?

like in Fist of Legend ;) The son of Fok Yuen Gap says "This style is not for the 'others'", and then shows Chen Zen the family mizong fist, which Fok Yuen Gap hadn't shown to any of his students.

[Meat Shake]

Yeah Meat Shake that is why you will never have anything, atttude. You trained in SanMarcos right then left couldnt take it. KC

LOL!
Couldnt take it eh?
Look up Kirk Woeller, San Antonio Combat Shuai Chiao association.
Look up John Wang in Austin, Texas.
Watch their videos, and watch david lin's videos. Tell me that I left SD for something "softer"....
I dont see any pregnant women or children practicing shuai chiao.
Before I moved up here for college I was in shuai chiao 8 hours a week and training another 25-30 hours a week.
One more thing... The whole "dont show anyone material" is just in place so you guys dont get laughed out of town. Someone may just show you that nothing you know works besides basic kicks and punches. Someone may show you what the original version of the form looked like before Sin The watered it down.
Every fighting based style I have trained always said to freely trade information and keep what is useful, show others what works for you and what may work for them, and ask the same of them.

[Golden Tiger]

Tell me that I left SD for something "softer"....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwy_C4cywNM

Uh yeah....you might want to tell them not to jump before the throw is executed or fall before the guys starts the sweep....looks almost as dangerous as some of those Akido demo's I have seen. You be careful Meat, hate for you to end up with a nasty rug burn.....:rolleyes:

[brucereiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwy_C4cywNM

Uh yeah....you might want to tell them not to jump before the throw is executed or fall before the guys starts the sweep....looks almost as dangerous as some of those Akido demo's I have seen. You be careful Meat, hate for you to end up with a nasty rug burn.....:rolleyes:

remember it was a demo ... i have nothing but respect for john wang. if you check out a bit more of what he does i think you will find it of value.

[kwaichang]

Yep, I know the teacher in San M and know the kind of classes he runs. I definately hope you dont square up like that for your throws. If so , anyway I have heard about you already you know I took Aikido from a uchi Deshi of Euishibas and w/o with a judo guy there our throws and tech were much harder . KC

[Golden Tiger]

remember it was a demo ... i have nothing but respect for john wang. if you check out a bit more of what he does i think you will find it of value.


Yeah, I was just in a bit of a pi$$y mood lastnight. But since our demo's are always attacked, I figured it was within the rules.

I meant no offense to Mr. Wang nor anyone else. Just pointing out that to Mr. Meat.

[ninthdrunk]

Man, I just got around to watching my liu shing dvd. I can't believe how fast he is! I think I've gotten a good taste for it, especially after watching him go through first leopard at the seminar....but this is ridiculous! Anyone with the video, pay close attention during round 5. The man's hands are like lightning! And you can tell that each strike is going to each of those points he's calling.

Hope I'm rockin like that some day!

[Baqualin]

Man, I just got around to watching my liu shing dvd. I can't believe how fast he is! I think I've gotten a good taste for it, especially after watching him go through first leopard at the seminar....but this is ridiculous! Anyone with the video, pay close attention during round 5. The man's hands are like lightning! And you can tell that each strike is going to each of those points he's calling.

Hope I'm rockin like that some day!

It's amazing that someone who just turned 64 still has that much speed & power.....hopefully that will give you a little insight in to what we experienced 30+ yrs. ago when he was in his prime......people just don't realize.;) BQ

[Meat Shake]

Yeah, I was just in a bit of a pi$$y mood lastnight. But since our demo's are always attacked, I figured it was within the rules.

I meant no offense to Mr. Wang nor anyone else. Just pointing out that to Mr. Meat.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T6MnGc2sAtk
... :rolleyes:
This is more along the lines of good Shuai Chiao demos.
Show me some SD at work.

[kwaichang]

Which one was you ? not too impressive by either one KC

[Meat Shake]

Which one was you ? not too impressive by either one KC

ROFL!

Wow...
You really know nothing of fighting. Neither was me, that was the chinese national team vs. thailand.
Sorry if there were no Chi blasts or death touches, but thats what real fighting looks like. Maybe next year someone will strike a crane pose or pull someones eye out...
:rolleyes:


Like I said, show me an SD video of more than a form. You cant produce one because the basic philosophy of SD is "too t3h d34d7y for the ring!!!??!!"...
riiiiight.....

[John Many Jars]

I liked the clip. Especially, when the San Shou guy throwing the Thai guy over the ropes. Speaking of which, his throws look very similar to the demo videos you posted. The techniques obviously carry over well to the ring.

Some of the comments on the clip said the San Shao guy looked more Muay Thai than the Muay Thai fighter and even though I know neither style that's what I was thinking.

If you recall, JP posted some clips of his sparring at a comp. and there was also a vid of a SD guy (w/ some ground training, I think) fighting and winning in the ring. So there are at least a couple out there. =\

[Meat Shake]

Actually, if you can find the links Id be very interested to see.

[kwaichang]

Yes I know "good" fighting and that aint it. Anybody with strength can do throws like that , no skill . So why take a gun to a knife fight anyway, I will be in texas in July or august , wil you be there MS ?? KC

[Judge Pen]

Actually, if you can find the links Id be very interested to see.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41609 (has a link to the SD guy in an amature MMA match.

And, for public ridicule: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42125

[ninthdrunk]

Are shuai chiao fights always broken up so often? I know they're hitting pretty hard, and it's a lot more intense than it looks, but I gotta say, I was a little disappointed. I would think that a throwing art wouldn't break from the clinch, or right after a throw. It seemed more like point sparring with throws.

[BM2]

I watched Cung Le fight and he is impressive although I do not care for the rules, i.e. stopping the action after a take down and not continuing it on the ground.
Been looking to get a used DVD on his take downs.
It is my opinion that MS is using a poor way of explaining he prefers a style that is geared just for fighting. But he is ignorant of SD if he thinks there is no one that can fight in SD :rolleyes:
It does take more time in TMA where forms have to be learned. It takes away from time spent on live training and sparring.

[Kung Pao]

MEat Shake....you need to chill, bro. The first MA I took was SD, and I quit after 2 years at brown belt--just like you. I went to several other CMA styles, and wound up in shuai chao for about a year, but moved back to stick with my crane teacher b/c he was the best I've ever met. You know what? I was able to use SD material in shaui chao with good results. :eek: .....shocker, right? And I'm not SD's biggest fan. But it ain't complete ****, hombre. And shaui Chao isn't exactly THE SHIZNIT par excellence.

Just because you couldn't use it doesn't mean nobody can. It was my first MA, and it taught me a helluvalot (material and depth). Some of hte fighters there were the best I've met...and I've met a lot. But the best fighters I have ever met were all MMA. Sorry charlie. But you know what, I can use my White Crane material against MMA fighters. I even use some SD, b/c that's my foundation. But most of theose guys are bigger, faster, and stronger, and they're excellent groundfighters, so they overwhelme me eventually. Not always, but usually (I'm man enough to admit that).

I do remember one thing in particular about SD. Their pressure point strikers were scary. I've learned a lot about Dim Mak over the years. But I've never seen (that is, felt) pain like some of their best fighters inflicted on me. I remember sparring a fourth degree once, and every two seconds he had me in a throat lock I couldn't reverse that put me down quick (and out, once).

This whole thread (I won't even try to read the whole thing....) is ridiculous. It works if you can use it. It doesn't if you can't. I've met horrible MMA fighters, but their best are the best I've met (because they're pro fighters). I've met horrible CMA guys, but the best are right up there, too (the only thing holding them back is they don't train like pros do). There are some badazz shuai chao guys, but they're no more badazz than anyone else, and would bet whipped by a BJJ guy, (at least, probably, since most SC ends with hitting the floor), but I've met Muay Thai guys that are BJJ killers, cuz they kick with authority. I trained in a camp with a Thai champ, and one kick from this guy had me injured on the sidelines (and dang, man, I was holding a shield....:D ....).

Few of us could ever take on pro fighters. It's their job, their pride, and their life. We're all armchair Martial ARtists to them. So what is this SC vs. SD crap, man?

If you can use it, fine. If you can't use your SD material, congrats. Just means you suck at SD.

[Kung Pao]

Question: to all.

What does it mean to use your material?

I might not be able to pull off a series of consecutive crane kicks perched on one leg with a hand guarding high above my head, and the other sweeping back to protect my groin, but why the hell would I do that?

But if I grabbed your wrist or fingers (my favoritee, since most people don't protect against finger-wrenching) and locked it, raised it, and kicked you once in the rib (Liver 13 or 14-nasty place for a kick) or knee, it's the same thing. The extra kicks in a form help you with balance and strength conditioning. The ways you need to condition are often encoded in a form. (to practice for leg strength and stability, hold a hanging leg stance and fire off kicks above your head---sheesh, I'll recommend that to everyone. Awesome leg/balance exercise.) Fighting in a style doesn't necessarily mean flapping like a crane, dancing like a mantis, or ripping liike a tiger. It might only be three or four solid techniques, or variations on punches in a form. As my teacher always says: "Fighting should look like fighting." It's the linear/circular philsophies, body positioning, etc that really determines mastership of a style. My teacher looks like a crane when he does his forms. His shaking jin is amazing. If you grab him in any shaui chao grab (I have), he can shake you off with no effort.
But hwen he fights (he has family/professional relations who do MMA, and sometimes train with us---hardcore guys, they are), you see crane concepts and power generation. But you wouldn't say he looked like a crane, because he doesn't stay perched on one leg for ten minutes like in the movies. BUt to a trained eye, you'd say....holy ****, that man knows his crane. His strikes are crane strikes, but he can box straight up using what he's learned, and he's never studied anything except crane. You have to play with your forms, and dissect them, and train with others to attain understanding (especially the latter). Nothing will ever be more effective than a straight punch or a jab. Every MA uses them in some variation. Boxing didn't create it. It's in your CMA forms, too. For SD guys, your #1 punch (sparring tech) will always be your most effective strike, hands down.

And for hte record, SD's crane isn't that far off the mark. Different stylings, gave me my break, and still part of my daily repetoire. Owe it a lot.


Crane generates power through looseness, softness, and whipping power. It's footwork covers ground, best in mid-range or close up, IMO. Forms teach you what attacks are good for certain ranges. They teach you concepts.

You have to employ them. But employing your material doesn't entail imitating an animal, like in your forms. I don't flap my wings, squawk, and make funky neck movements. But my crane is effective, nonetheless.

[Baqualin]

Question: to all.

What does it mean to use your material?

I might not be able to pull off a series of consecutive crane kicks perched on one leg with a hand guarding high above my head, and the other sweeping back to protect my groin, but why the hell would I do that?

But if I grabbed your wrist or fingers (my favoritee, since most people don't protect against finger-wrenching) and locked it, raised it, and kicked you once in the rib (Liver 13 or 14-nasty place for a kick) or knee, it's the same thing. The extra kicks in a form help you with balance and strength conditioning. The ways you need to condition are often encoded in a form. (to practice for leg strength and stability, hold a hanging leg stance and fire off kicks above your head---sheesh, I'll recommend that to everyone. Awesome leg/balance exercise.) Fighting in a style doesn't necessarily mean flapping like a crane, dancing like a mantis, or ripping liike a tiger. It might only be three or four solid techniques, or variations on punches in a form. As my teacher always says: "Fighting should look like fighting." It's the linear/circular philsophies, body positioning, etc that really determines mastership of a style. My teacher looks like a crane when he does his forms. His shaking jin is amazing. If you grab him in any shaui chao grab (I have), he can shake you off with no effort.
But hwen he fights (he has family/professional relations who do MMA, and sometimes train with us---hardcore guys, they are), you see crane concepts and power generation. But you wouldn't say he looked like a crane, because he doesn't stay perched on one leg for ten minutes like in the movies. BUt to a trained eye, you'd say....holy ****, that man knows his crane. His strikes are crane strikes, but he can box straight up using what he's learned, and he's never studied anything except crane. You have to play with your forms, and dissect them, and train with others to attain understanding (especially the latter). Nothing will ever be more effective than a straight punch or a jab. Every MA uses them in some variation. Boxing didn't create it. It's in your CMA forms, too. For SD guys, your #1 punch (sparring tech) will always be your most effective strike, hands down.

And for hte record, SD's crane isn't that far off the mark. Different stylings, gave me my break, and still part of my daily repetoire. Owe it a lot.


Crane generates power through looseness, softness, and whipping power. It's footwork covers ground, best in mid-range or close up, IMO. Forms teach you what attacks are good for certain ranges. They teach you concepts.

You have to employ them. But employing your material doesn't entail imitating an animal, like in your forms. I don't flap my wings, squawk, and make funky neck movements. But my crane is effective, nonetheless.

Your teacher has taught you well....you have a true understanding of what forms are about.....something the majority miss out on

It's also apparent that you did learn from SD....your right about ole #1, it can be used in a variety of ways to where you don't see it till it hits you. Elder Master Eric Smith has Mastered sparring tech #1 & you can't stop it. So simple yet so effective. GMS has recently taught the Shaolin Ground Monkey & students who do alot of ground fighting are using some of the postures (not attacks) very successfully to compliment their ground fighting skills.:cool:
BQ

[kwaichang]

I will be in texas in July or august , wil you be there MS ?? KC
You never replied so I thought I would post it again KC

[Meat Shake]

KC- july or august possibly, but not likely. I move back for good in December.

"And shaui Chao isn't exactly THE SHIZNIT par excellence."

... Never said it was, and this is exactly why I supplement with BJJ and Muay Thai.

"Few of us could ever take on pro fighters. It's their job, their pride, and their life."

This is my aim within the next 2 years, to go pro. Its not SD vs SC... SC is my base, I train on more of an MMA platform. I have to stack enough money to safely work part time for the better part of a year and off I go.

and LOL at you guys all getting so worked up. A majority of the reason I give SD so much sh!t is because its the only art Ive walked into that told me "This is the ultimate complete art. You need NOTHING else. Ground fighting is useless, a well trained SD student will not go to the ground, yadayadayada..."
and this same attitude has been displayed a number of times on this forum. Look at my join date dude. Look up posts by the member who owns the moniker Shaolin-Do. Thats me. They are OOOLD.... I fought to prove everyone wrong that SD was great, until I was pointed in the direction of some actual fighting.
And no, in the end, its not any better or worse than 90% of what is out there, its just the general "ultimate martial art" attitude that earns it so much crap. Im sure SD does have one or two competent fighters to every thousand that train it, as I was training to fight full contact outside of SD for the short while I trained it. I like to argue, and I do that here. Its fun, and its funny.
I know Shuai Chiao isnt "the shiznit", but its fantastic for clinch and throws. Muay thai is better for striking, which is exactly why I like to work with MT fighters any and every chance I get, and BJJ rules on the ground, which is exactly why within the next few weeks after I finish my next album Ill be starting up again with a local pro fighting team.
Once again, the reason I give SD so much sh!t is because time and time again I have been told that its ultimate and complete, and its not. None of the people I trained SC with ever told me it was "complete". They just always said that if you are fighting on the ground your SC needs work, but never once told me to omit the training.
Hell, there was a rule at one of our SC tournies in austin that if you were on the ground for more than 10 seconds kirk and paul would rush you both from the sides and start kicking both opponents, because thats what its like in life.

Edit: That being said, the SC I trained DID go to the ground, just for clarification.

[Meat Shake]

Also, JP, thanks for the link and props for putting it out there.

The MMA clips didnt work. The page opens, but when I click play it just says connecting, loads, then says ready. You hit play and it just says connecting again...

Any youtube links of it?

KC- judging by your profile, you really must think you are a hard@ss. Hitman eh? Training in the Shaolin temple huh? Good for you.

"It is my opinion that MS is using a poor way of explaining he prefers a style that is geared just for fighting. But he is ignorant of SD if he thinks there is no one that can fight in SD"

Your opinion is correct. Im sure there are a couple of people in SD who can fight, but it didnt come from learning SD. The fighters would be fighters anyhow. Ive already said that half of the reason Im even on these retarded threads is because sometimes I get bored, and its fun to get peoples feathers in a ruffle. You guys continue to let me bother you, so I continue to do so.

[Baqualin]

Also, JP, thanks for the link and props for putting it out there.

The MMA clips didnt work. The page opens, but when I click play it just says connecting, loads, then says ready. You hit play and it just says connecting again...

Any youtube links of it?

KC- judging by your profile, you really must think you are a hard@ss. Hitman eh? Training in the Shaolin temple huh? Good for you.

"It is my opinion that MS is using a poor way of explaining he prefers a style that is geared just for fighting. But he is ignorant of SD if he thinks there is no one that can fight in SD"

Your opinion is correct. Im sure there are a couple of people in SD who can fight, but it didnt come from learning SD. The fighters would be fighters anyhow. Ive already said that half of the reason Im even on these retarded threads is because sometimes I get bored, and its fun to get peoples feathers in a ruffle. You guys continue to let me bother you, so I continue to do so.

Most of us are on here for the same reason MS....it's fun to pick at each other....keep us posted on your fights....FYI there's a MMA cage fight coming up soon in Ashland, Ky & there will be an SD participant there might want to check it out

[Meat Shake]

If you can get a video of it Id love to watch.

College debts make traveling more of a wish than a reality.

[Baqualin]

If you can get a video of it Id love to watch.

College debts make traveling more of a wish than a reality.

I hope to do that.
BQ

[kwaichang]

No I dont think I am a Hard a$$ but I am willing to spar you to show you some of the SD can fight will I win , Maybe but i believe you will know you have been in a scrap.
PS i will be 49 in August and instead of a mid life crises Red Sports car i thought it would be fun to just kick young punks a$$e$ who have big mouths. want a go? KC
Please be kind with my old brittle bones.

[Meat Shake]

heh...
Dude, you are old enough that Id feel bad for beating you down.
But sure, when I come back to texas if you are around Ill gladly smite you. There has been more than one instance in my life where I had to show an older gent that "young punks" can dismantle a "tough ass old man" with ease....

[CaptinPickAxe]

Time for a little dojo busting, eh shake? I can't believe these guys get so butt hurt over knowing that they aren't training in "THE ONE TRUE COMPLETE MARTIAL ART!!!" Get a ****ing clue. You'd be a fool to believe that there is any one true art. Most of you shaolin dopes (except the unspoken few...you know who you are) are so closed minded and share many triats with cult members walking to the culling. Think for yourself and realize that you are being lead...

[John Many Jars]

On a semi-related note, I was talking to a pretty new white belt yesterday and it turns out he's studied San Shao. It sounds like a pretty cool art.

[kwaichang]

Cool Sounds Good To Me. Kc Ill Be In Touch

[MasterKiller]

On a semi-related note, I was talking to a pretty new white belt yesterday and it turns out he's studied San Shao. It sounds like a pretty cool art.

San Shou kickboxing, or San Soo the too-deadly-to-spar style? There is a difference.

[Flaca]

heh...
Dude, you are old enough that Id feel bad for beating you down.
But sure, when I come back to texas if you are around Ill gladly smite you. There has been more than one instance in my life where I had to show an older gent that "young punks" can dismantle a "tough ass old man" with ease....

Do you think KC's been resting on his laurels for 38 years???? He's about the strongest and quickest guy in SD, of any age.
Smite? I doubt it. Although you sound like one of those guys who'll take anything (bloody noses, black eyes, bruised shins) and never admit defeat. "Just a flesh wound"

[Meat Shake]

"He's about the strongest and quickest guy in SD, of any age."

lol...
for some reason that is one of the least intimidating things anyone has ever said to back someone up.

"(bloody noses, black eyes, bruised shins) and never admit defeat."

If Im still standing then the fight isnt over.

[John Many Jars]

San Shou kickboxing, or San Soo the too-deadly-to-spar style? There is a difference.

I think it's San Shou. He said most of their stuff was in clinching range, w/ a lot of throws and ground work (chokes, etc.). I'll have to ask him next time I see him what kind of sparring they did.

[MasterKiller]

I think it's San Shou. He said most of their stuff was in clinching range, w/ a lot of throws and ground work (chokes, etc.). I'll have to ask him next time I see him what kind of sparring they did.

San Shou kickboxing has no ground work. It's kick/punch/throw, done with boxing gloves.

I bet he's San Soo....

It's pronouced the same, in fact, I think the Chinese characters are the same. But San Soo is a TMA, not a combat sport.

[Judge Pen]

San Shou kickboxing has no ground work. It's kick/punch/throw, done with boxing gloves.

I bet he's San Soo....

or he's cross-trained a bit.

[kwaichang]

Hey man I didnt solicit it Im slow as a sloth and weak as water Im fat and ugly so dont mind being hit, My technique sucks and I cant kick above the knee. KC

[CaptinPickAxe]

It seems the SDers have gotten a bit more testy since I've returned from my hiatus. Confidence can help gain a win, arrogance can be the sole reason for a loss. KC, you best choose your battles or train for a war. I'm Shake's training partner and I'll tell you straight up: Train hard or contact EMS pre-fight. If you take this fight, KC, (which I highly doubt...just another internet tough guy) crosstrain. You'll need it. The SD anti-grapple won't save you.

Also, if you can't take criticism get the **** off of KFO. And a word in advance, Shake and I are preparing to start training with a very respected MMA crew here in MLPS. We train for this, but soon we will be training to put our skills to the test in the ring. Are you a hobbyist or a fighter?

[kwaichang]

Im a hobbyist for 36 years 6-7 days a week , X pro fighter turned MA dont care about EMT I have fought some tough old cookies in my time. Trained old style Judo and others Bouncer for many years and more. and I dont psych out I just try real hard to win. KC

[CaptinPickAxe]

If your a 6-7 day a week, ex-fighter then you aren't a hobbyist. Do you have a link to your record? Where you ranked? What venues/formats have you fought in?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Also, now that we know your background. If you won, would it have been your judo or the SD that helped your win? If anything your "experience" is more daming than saving for SD. You openly admit to knowing other arts that would come into play. I know that SD has no respectable ground game so if you won by submission it would be the Judo. If you won by KO/TKO from a throw, it would have been the Judo. So, all that's left is striking for SD...I have my doubts to your claims but the truth stands.

[kwaichang]

I did the other but have found the truth SD how do you define what one is beaten by? So it doesnt matter, what venues I fought PKA , also in those days we challenged other schools and fought for the he// of it. I have a good knowledge of the ground and can kick and punch a little even at my advanced age. I fought on cards with Anthony the amp elmore in the 80's and a few other ranked people , my best friend and I trained pro boxing in Nashville he went on to be world welter weight and light weight champ. You know there is no way to say what beat who MS trained SD if he hits me and knocks me out then I will say it was the SD training. No way No way No way. GOIT. KC
Because he, MS doesnt like something he doesnt have the right or knowledge to cut it down. Its the man not the art. KC

[CaptinPickAxe]

Wow. The period button is next to the coma. That was hard to read.

So...where are the links? If you have fought, you should be easy to find. What's your name?

Also, you seem to be using your age as a crutch. If you can fight, then good. But if you can't don't use your age as a preemptive excuse.

[Meat Shake]

"MS trained SD if he hits me and knocks me out then I will say it was the SD training."
... SD actually taught me a few habits I had to unlearn when I began actually fighting. I train to fight and I fight to win. I dont play paticake with gloves on.

Anyhow...
Im getting bored with this thread.
Ill let you know when Im in texas.

Be well.

[ninthdrunk]

CSC folks, what's the deal with this form? I love our monkey forms, and I'm curious where/when the West acquired this form. I've heard it was taught to them by someone on the China trip awhile back, and didn't actually come from Grandmaster Sin. Anyone have this form and want to share the basics of what it's all about: where'd it come from, what's it like?

[Baqualin]

CSC folks, what's the deal with this form? I love our monkey forms, and I'm curious where/when the West acquired this form. I've heard it was taught to them by someone on the China trip awhile back, and didn't actually come from Grandmaster Sin. Anyone have this form and want to share the basics of what it's all about: where'd it come from, what's it like?

Stone monkey is one of the 5 monkey styles taught by the Monkey King.
BQ

[godzillakungfu]

CSC folks, what's the deal with this form? I love our monkey forms, and I'm curious where/when the West acquired this form. I've heard it was taught to them by someone on the China trip awhile back, and didn't actually come from Grandmaster Sin. Anyone have this form and want to share the basics of what it's all about: where'd it come from, what's it like?
That's kind of funny. Ha Ha funny not sarcastic funny.

We heard the same thing about the Chen Tai Chi Fan form.

As I recall, it was offered back in 91-92.

[tattooedmonk]

it was one of Master Hsiang's forms. It is a basic set with some nice techniques. classic monkey moves arm drag take downs, rolling, monkey paw wrist strikes.

[Baqualin]

it was one of Master Hsiang's forms. It is a basic set with some nice techniques. classic monkey moves arm drag take downs, rolling, monkey paw wrist strikes.

Didn't want to mention that but I think your correct.;)
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

I noticed the SD does a form that my system does, called Lien Wu Chang (linked 5 palms). SD sometimes calls it Whirling Palms too.

I don't know where SD got if from but it is a form from the Di Tang style, of Shandong province. The style goes back to the Song Dynasty.
Di Tang is known for its very low to the ground fighting movements, this form is from their above ground level material (not all the style's forms are on the ground). It does have some very low sweeps.

I don't know if it is same exact form as the one that SD does, but I think it is, because whenever I have heard someone from SD describe it, it sounds like the form I know.

Do you SD people know where SD got it from?

It's a northern style, not southern as SD has said about this form.

It's based on Tong Bei monkey / ape movements and can be done with the Dao / knife (even the double Dao).

Tell me more about this Lien Wu Chang (Tsang) form you do, and I will tell you if it the same as the official one of this style. Let's see if it is indeed the same form.
It is not a Shaolin form.

[Leto]

I have a theory that many, if not most of the forms done in SD are from Shandong province. It is interesting to note that there is "shantung kuntao" from Indonesia as well.

The Lien Wu Chang I learned from CSC has several low sweeps, and features turning and spinning to attack and cover ground. I don't think it's a southern form, either. A couple techniques which are repeated throughout the form are a hopping forward front sweep followed by a low back sweep with elbow, and a spinning front sweep/back sweep combo. also, an arm whirling takedown into a low crouched monkey sort of stance, followed by spinning double kick. Most of the palm attacks are from a forward bow and arrow stance, which should be pretty low.
If I had a video camera I'd show you how I do it.

I doubt it would be identical to anything currently practiced by another style. The overall concept might be very similar, though. There could be indentical techniques in different orders, depending on the emphasis and interpretation they are given.

Is this from a ditang style like yours? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvNSDBapxzU

This form has movement and attacks very similar to the lien wu chang I know. some things we don't have, and the sweeps are performed in a different way, but very very similar means of moving/spinning. there are techniques in here that aren't in mine, or maybe were taught with such different emphasis that they are unrecongizeable. But this definately looks like a relative...three or four generations removed maybe.

[Leto]

I'm a google maniac! :)

Is this it? Is this the "official" lian wu chang from ditang quan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

It is very similar to the one taught by CSC/SD. techniques are performed slightly differently. It has the hopping forward sweep, the spinning double kick, inside crescent kicks, the same style of body turning and palm attacks.
I am quite excited about this, to find another system with forms so close. it always bothered me that no one in SD or CSC knows or will tell us the lineage or origin of any of the forms (apart from common knowledge legends, like from Zhan SanFeng, Yue Fei, Wang Lang, etc, and the 2 masters of the SD lineage).
This is a most promising "lead" in this mystery. At least one of the The brothers' teachers must have been a shantung kuntao guy...shandong province is also the home of praying mantis styles, the same teacher could be the one who passed those forms as well.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm a google maniac! :)

Is this it? Is this the "official" lian wu chang from ditang quan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

It is very similar to the one taught by CSC/SD. techniques are performed slightly differently. It has the hopping forward sweep, the spinning double kick, inside crescent kicks, the same style of body turning and palm attacks.
I am quite excited about this, to find another system with forms so close. it always bothered me that no one in SD or CSC knows or will tell us the lineage or origin of any of the forms (apart from common knowledge legends, like from Zhan SanFeng, Yue Fei, Wang Lang, etc, and the 2 masters of the SD lineage).
This is a most promising "lead" in this mystery. At least one of the The brothers' teachers must have been a shantung kuntao guy...shandong province is also the home of praying mantis styles, the same teacher could be the one who passed those forms as well.

WOW! Thanks for finding that!
That's the form, pretty much, all the postures, just done like a beginner student, but it's that form alright.
Thanks for finding that!

And, yes, this form is taught as part of some praying mantis in the system. They also do The Tiger Swallow form, and some other N Mantis forms.
It's the Ditang Mantis system from Shandong.

I've learned the forms from Master Tang, from Taiwan, when he visted NYC, he is coming back this July or so.

I have some tapes from the 1970s of Patrick Hodges doing other forms from the system.

Well, there you go!

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have a theory that many, if not most of the forms done in SD are from Shandong province. It is interesting to note that there is "shantung kuntao" from Indonesia as well.

The Lien Wu Chang I learned from CSC has several low sweeps, and features turning and spinning to attack and cover ground. I don't think it's a southern form, either. A couple techniques which are repeated throughout the form are a hopping forward front sweep followed by a low back sweep with elbow, and a spinning front sweep/back sweep combo. also, an arm whirling takedown into a low crouched monkey sort of stance, followed by spinning double kick. Most of the palm attacks are from a forward bow and arrow stance, which should be pretty low.
If I had a video camera I'd show you how I do it.

I doubt it would be identical to anything currently practiced by another style. The overall concept might be very similar, though. There could be indentical techniques in different orders, depending on the emphasis and interpretation they are given.

Is this from a ditang style like yours? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvNSDBapxzU

This form has movement and attacks very similar to the lien wu chang I know. some things we don't have, and the sweeps are performed in a different way, but very very similar means of moving/spinning. there are techniques in here that aren't in mine, or maybe were taught with such different emphasis that they are unrecongizeable. But this definately looks like a relative...three or four generations removed maybe.

That is the same form, this is more like how my system does it.

[godzillakungfu]

That is the same form, this is more like how my system does it.

Wow, I'd say there are subtle differences but, it is really close to the west version I learned.

I'd say, minus a few different angles, it was about 90% similar.

[Crushing Fist]

I suppose the natural question would be:

Does the style which has this Lian Wu Zhang also have a related form which translates to something like "Connecting Fist" or "Interconnected Fist" ?

Jie Quan or Che Chien?

I've been looking around for some history on these forms for awhile and haven't found anything until this.

They are referred to as "China Hand" style and I have heard of them being related to tiger style. However, to me they have always seemed very much like a longfist type of style.

It has always been a bit mysterious to me, though I do like them quite a lot.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I suppose the natural question would be:

Does the style which has this Lian Wu Zhang also have a related form which translates to something like "Connecting Fist" or "Interconnected Fist" ?

Jie Quan or Che Chien?

I've been looking around for some history on these forms for awhile and haven't found anything until this.

They are referred to as "China Hand" style and I have heard of them being related to tiger style. However, to me they have always seemed very much like a longfist type of style.

It has always been a bit mysterious to me, though I do like them quite a lot.

Jie Quan is a common beginner form taught at the famous Jingwu Association of SHANDONG province (the school in the Fearless film). It's not an old form. Its an amalgamation of various long fist forms. The Jingwu school has released for their anniversary a set of books on their beginner forms, you can see (learn?) this set very easily in these books. Plumflower carries them, the whole set.

Eagle Claw people use this Jie Quan form as a beginner form too, with eagle claw ideas.

The Jie means the same thing as Jeet as in Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee's style.

China Hand is Wah Quan, it is not a Wah Quan form. Nope.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Wow, I'd say there are subtle differences but, it is really close to the west version I learned.

I'd say, minus a few different angles, it was about 90% similar.

This version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

is missing some important transition movements.

This is a two person form and without the correct transition movements, you will get your ass kicked by the other person doing the other side of the form (the form splits into two, one half against the other half).

And, this version, although done MUCH better is also missing the same transition moves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvNSDBapxzU

SO, that means that they do not want you to know them.
First time I was taught the form they left these moves out too (students of the teacher). Second and third time we went over the form (by the teacher and the teacher's teacher), I had to re-learn the form with the missing movements but back in and what their function was.

Anyways, thanks for finding these, they are great memory joggers for the form overall.

[Leto]

The way they may be related to eachother and to the black tiger forms taught in SD is if they are from Shandong. Our black tiger forms also include a lot of low/ground techniques, I wonder if they are related to the ditang quan mentioned as well? Sal, does your ditang quan have any forms called black tiger?
Jie Quan and Jin Gang Fu Hu Quan seem very different from Lian Wu Zhang, though they are closer to eachother. You often do see lineages which include forms from other traditions that don't necessarily "match" their core curriculum...like when a master will learn something from one of his friends, and teach that to his students out of respect for his friend's skill (or something like that). Or two families come together through marriage, or something, and add forms from both into a new "style".

Assuming our black tiger forms are really from Shandong, as we are told they are...then we have : 4 black tigers, lian wu zhang, probably 4 or 5 mantis forms (most of which are only taught in seminars by GM The and the elder masters), all from Shandong.

four roads of Hua quan is definately from northern chang quan...is chang quan and ditang mantis sometimes taught together?

[ninthdrunk]

Honestly, with the lian u chang forms, if I didn't know they were supposed to be similar forms, I might not even draw the connection based on the performance. The SD forms (as usual) seem to have some of the same moves, and elements of movement, but the overall flow and body mechanics are strikingly different.

That's just my take.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The way they may be related to eachother and to the black tiger forms taught in SD is if they are from Shandong. Our black tiger forms also include a lot of low/ground techniques, I wonder if they are related to the ditang quan mentioned as well? Sal, does your ditang quan have any forms called black tiger?
Jie Quan and Jin Gang Fu Hu Quan seem very different from Lian Wu Zhang, though they are closer to eachother. You often do see lineages which include forms from other traditions that don't necessarily "match" their core curriculum...like when a master will learn something from one of his friends, and teach that to his students out of respect for his friend's skill (or something like that). Or two families come together through marriage, or something, and add forms from both into a new "style".

Assuming our black tiger forms are really from Shandong, as we are told they are...then we have : 4 black tigers, lian wu zhang, probably 4 or 5 mantis forms (most of which are only taught in seminars by GM The and the elder masters), all from Shandong.

four roads of Hua quan is definately from northern chang quan...is chang quan and ditang mantis sometimes taught together?

Hmm, Black Tiger is from Shandong / Shantung province, yes.

Both Shandong Black Tiger and Shandong Ditang Quan come from the same school, its one system, based on aspects of Tai Tzu Quan that were elaborated on and became their own styles and sets. In other words, they are from the same Long Fist system dating to Song Dynasty and now based in Shandong.

Four Roads of Hua Quan is FLOWER Hua, not Wah Quan.
It is a Northern Long Fist system, it comes from Gan Feng Shi originally, it is a mixture of Hard Shaolin and Soft Emei Quan. There is no one "Northern Chang Quan" system, there are many systems that are "nothern chang quan" in essense. But not THE system, one of many.
It has nothing to do at all with Shandong styles (Black Tiger, Ditang, Tai Tzu, Hong Quan, Mantis, etc).
Completely different system with its' own rules.
Plumflower has VCDs of all 4 roads.

Jie Quan and Jin Gang Quan are not related to these other styles as well.
Jie Quan is essentially an Eagle Claw form, modern at that.

Northern MANTIS CHANG QUAN is a specific style, now taught commonly in Taiwan that collected a series of forms together from Shandong schools.
it is easy to find info on this style on the internet, it is well known in Taiwan.
Look up Gao Dao-Sheng, who is from Shandong, like: http://www.kungfuleuven.be/main_kungfu.htm

Some Tai Tzu Chang Quan people teach Black Tiger was well in Taiwan and Shandong. Some Long Fist people teach Black Tiger and Northern Mantis together instead.

Some people say the Sin The got his Black Tiger form from a book that came out in the late 60/ early 70s, called Black Tiger Intersectional Boxing. It's supposed to be a Mantis form.

Beggar Style has Black Tiger form as well, that form is from Tai Tzu in its roots.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Honestly, with the lian u chang forms, if I didn't know they were supposed to be similar forms, I might not even draw the connection based on the performance. The SD forms (as usual) seem to have some of the same moves, and elements of movement, but the overall flow and body mechanics are strikingly different.

That's just my take.


Well, these two performers are just kids doing them, have lots of flaws (arms moving disconnected to waist moving, etc). But overall, all the postures are in correct order, minus the non-public moves.

What can I say about the SD versions? Most would say that they are done without the correct ancient traditional CMA natural body mechanics so they look karate like, sorry.

[Leto]

just as you and I didn't see that the two links I had earlier were the same form, it might be hard to see the connection between ours and those...but the elements are all there. The techniques are there, the emphasis is different. flavored by other styles? Who knows. I thought the overall flow was quite similar to mine, the way I learned it in the west. I bet it is a bit different in the east. SD obviously doesn't do things the same way as most "traditional" Chineses styles, otherwise it would be recognized right away as a legit style, or having elements of legit styles.
My mindset is one of reverse engineering and reinterpretation of the flow and body mechanics of many of the forms...mostly out of curiosity to know where all the stuff I was taught really came from. Or at least, where it came from before GM The and his brother, and their teachers in Bandung. Other styles have lineages which tell them approximately who taught who what, and where all the elements of their style came from. All we've got is a tall tale about a hairy monk who mastered styles from all over China. Even if that tale is true, who were his teachers, and what did they teach him? He was supposedly around in the late nineteenth century, when there was plenty of documentation about lineages in the martial arts being formulated. Which temple, and which abbott, and which styles did they know? most other styles go back a lot ****her before they have the tall tales...like to the burning of shaolin and pai mei et al., or to zhang sanfeng, or something like that. Maybe it's not important. It's a little bit like an adopted child wanting to find out about his birth parents. His real "parents" are those who adopted him, but sometimes you just need to know...

This is getting away from the valuable part of the discussion, though. Which is finding solid links between our forms and those of other Chinese styles.

Anyone out there have any info on bird and crane forms? Or black tiger? Part of our problem in SD is that many of our form names are not translated accurately, and they all seem to be in a not-so-common dialect, like fukienese or something. Or maybe we spell them phonectically, and not in correct pinyin, so our transliteration of the words is confusing us and everyone. We need to get the characters for our form names, so people from other styles can better help us out.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Black Tiger is easy, there are a few books out about the style and there is lots of people doing the forms, and you can get VCDs of them forms.

The Crane forms most likely come from Fujian, they usually do, and again there are lots of books and vcds on them.

The Bird forms, I so far haven't come across them in my travels.

[Leto]

I'm not sure our jie quan is related to eagle claw, it seems like the name could be quite common and generic. You'd probably have to see it to tell what group it is related to. It is definately related to the basics they call "Lohan short forms", in SD, and where those came from who knows. Maybe they are related to the basics in Jinwu curriculum. Sin The and his brother were teenagers in the fifties, so modern forms definately aren't out of the question in terms of where SD material came from. (take the 24 posture combined taiji form, for one)

as for the white cranes...they really don't look like any fujian crane forms I've ever seen. maybe they are, but they don't have the fundamentals of the "saam chien" form (which SD also has a version of). Have you seen any fujian crane forms that include drop kicks, rolling and attacking from the ground?

I have the book "black tiger, northern art of shaolin", and it really doesn't look anything like the forms I know. It has different fist formation, basics look different, and the form shown isn't at all similar to ours.
Any way to find that black tiger book from the 60's or 70's, do you think it's still around? The black tiger forms really don't seem like mantis at all, but maybe they have been changed in order to hide their origin.
It seems like mantis would have been the secondary, and that longfist or some other style was the primary, for whoever taught the The brothers Shandong styles. (assuming that one of their teachers taught arts dervied from Shandong, and that all these forms are related, and not just from a bunch of random books)

it's possible that Sin The, having great talent in the martial arts he had learned so far (at least having great enthusiasm), may have turned to books and any other sources he could get his hands on for his continued learning, since he was living in the US from the time he was college age. As awesome a guy as he is, it is very hard to believe he mastered, or even learned the basic shape, of all the stuff the style teaches by the time he was eighteen.
I can actually empathize with this. I would never teach anyone else solely things that I only know from a book...but being alone and without access to a teacher for a long time, and having knowledge and ability in martial arts already, I might learn something new from a book or video. Years later, some of these techniques and movements might be ingrained into my personal style, and if I did teach someone...well some of what they learn would have come from a book.

[kwaichang]

If you are a SD student you should be ashamed for saying such a thing as GMT taught us from books. From old manuscript given to him by GGM Ie but not modern books. also have you ever really learned a form and then did not practice it for a while ?? If so then you know your muscle and body have memory and it is easier to recall. KC

[Meat Shake]

Sin teaches from books.
No doubt about it.
FYI... Manuscripts are what books once were...

[Leto]

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/kungfu/collbk_Mantis1.htm
Here's a book on black tiger intersecting fist. according to this the black tiger intersecting fist is a short set which primarily uses mantis hooking. If this was used as a source for anything, it would have to be one of the mantis forms that is taught, not what we call hei hu quan.

Our hei hu quan has palm strikes, whipping attacks with the palm and claws, fist strikes with unique hand formation. (maybe it is related to the shantung black tiger book I have...we are taught to extend the middle knuckle, but maybe that is a variation of the thumb-on-top fist described in the book and elsewhere as being the special "black tiger fist") Three of the four forms include acrobatic kicking techniques, like cartwheel kicks, flying drop kick, low tiger tail and iron broom sweeps, jumping spinning kicks. Two of the forms also include attacking from the ground, moving along the ground with kicking and clawing techniques, and rolling.

We know Shandong martial arts made their way to Indonesia, the same way it went to Taiwan. According to the story of Hiang The's history, one of the teachers in their shaolin school was from northern China. Did they make up that story to make Hiang The's lineage seem more plausible?

For you long-time SD guys who knew Master The back in the seventies and early eighties, how often did he go back to Indonesia? During the summers? Once or twice a year? How long would he be gone? Did he start teaching new material after a visit home? Somewhere back in this thread, it was stated approximately when master The started teaching the current brown belt material, including lien wu chang and the other "China hand" forms. When did the black tigers first appear? When did tang lang chien and tang lang tse tzu and sze sua chien, and monkey steals the peach first appear?

[Meat Shake]

"China hand" = karate....
:confused: :confused: :eek: :eek: :confused: :confused:

[kwaichang]

Boy MS havent you got anything better to do , better get to training. KC

[Leto]

I'm not saying he did or didn't. I'm saying it's possible. I only want to know the truth. KC, is it true that GM Sin inherited a ton of manuals from master Ie? Is that what he uses to teach everything? Do you think he learned all that stuff first hand, before master Ie died, or was most of it interpreted from the manuscripts? What dialect are our form names in? Who translated them? How come the English translation never seems to match what the Chinese seems to be?
Does anyone know any of this first hand?

I know that memory fades after not practicing something for a while. You can jog your memory and remember it using books and pictures. I've done this. I've also learned new things from books, based on what I remember seeing, and my experience in the style that the book was written about. There's no reason that GM The couldn't do this as well, given his experience and skill.

I'm trying to decipher the code, here. I know there is real, genuine, Chinese martial arts in the SD/CSC style. I'm trying to link the aspects of the Bandung/The style to it's parent arts, and noticing the differences. Were all our form names created in Indonesia, or do they exist somewhere in Chinese martial arts as well? how much in common do they have? The form names are one of the keys to linking styles together...

PS: there are no karate techniques taught in SD/CSC, at least not anymore. I don't know what it was like in the early days. If Sin The practiced karate before he started teaching kung fu, that might explain a little bit...but he certainly doesn't teach any karate now. If you practiced any style of karate it would be apparent.

[kwaichang]

There is a book called Bibishi ? on the spelling any way it has history and connection between the Ryukyu arts and the Chinese as well as pressure strikes etc. might help. KC

[kwaichang]

Also I think he learned prob 95% from GM Ie then the manuscripts helped him to recall uit as he was taught. That is what I have gathered from my time in the art. KC

[Leto]

I was encouraged by the fact that a form of the same name as one of ours, and with very similar techniques and movements, has been "found". This is a basic and probably common form...more advanced forms will be harder to find less likely to match so closely. Like I said originally after seeing the form, it must be three or four generations removed, with lots of changes and differences. The rest of the forms are probably the same way. Maybe the reason it doesn't look like the known Chinese styles is because the lineage holders went to Indonesia before or just after the turn of the twentieth century. A variant of Chinese styles that just doesn't "live" in China anymore. It's grandparents and great grandparents still live in China, though, and that's what I'm curious to see.
It is the same with Okianwan karate, which is what originally led me to search for Chinese martial arts...I really haven't found many modern Chinese styles that look much like karate techniques, since they have changed so much over the last 200-300 years. Only sanchin/saam chien is recognizeable. Some kata I know are definately influenced by crane...but in terms of finding matching forms, there's no luck.

The Bubishi only very generally relates to actual karate techniques. I have a translation of that (there are many variations and versions). It is about the principles and techniques of fujian white crane, and "monk fist" boxing, and includes a couple form poems. It is said that several prominent karate masters used the bubishi as a reference. It is definately a great resource in general, but in terms of specifics, it doesn't really link karate and Chinese arts. (there is one form, happoren/ba bu lien, which is in some karate traditions and is also a form in fujian white crane. this form is described in the book...though the karate version still looks quite different from the crane version.)

[Sal Canzonieri]

ehhh. No offense meant:

When all is said and done, there is no such thing as internal, external and so on but only traditional natural CMA body mechanics, which has flowing movements that are single weighted.

Karate is double weighted and the movements stop the flow.

That's what SD forms are done like, double weighted with disjointed flow, like karate, and so that's what makes SD forms look so different from traditional CMA.

If you take any SD form and do the movements so that they flow seamlessly with single weighted postures, then it will look just like any traditional CMA style.

[Sal Canzonieri]

There was a long article in a recent issue of Classical Fighting Arts where the author did extensive research on the earliest Peijan forms of Okinawan karate and they map up to the form shown in General Qi Qiguan's famous military book.

[kwaichang]

Please explain your biomechanical concept of double and single weighted. KC

[Sal Canzonieri]

Leto, southern Chinese martial arts are full of styles that look a lot like Okinawan karate.

The Go Ju Ryu style is the Five Ancestors style of Southern martial arts, some material.
The Southern Tai Tzu style is where the San Chin form comes from originally.

Five Ancestors got the form from them, as one of the 5 ancestors is the Southern Tai Tzu style.

The Beggar's style of southern china is very much like karate as well, and Five Ancestors is a sister style to Beggar's style.
One of the founder's of Okinawan karate traveled to China and learned Beggar's style and Five Ancestor's style. Spies hid out as beggar.
If read many articles about this topic and these events.
There has been extensive research done on the origins of the Okinawan forms and styles and their direct correlation to specific Southern Chinese martial arts.

You can find them on the internet if you dig around.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Please explain your biomechanical concept of double and single weighted. KC

That when stepping from movement to movement/posture to posture there is no "stopping" posture actually
AND
the body weight is never on two legs at the same time, only one leg when stepping from one movement to another.
The supporting leg's waist fold, the inguinal fold, the Kua in chinese, is always folded in and it opens and closes as the body weight moves from one step to another step.

The fundamental difference between traditional natural CMA and all other things (karate, modern wushu crap, etc, etc) is purely the concept of being single weighted at all times, the waist and the shoulders never being in two opposing directions, the arms not moving independently of the waist, the knee always being in alignment with the front of the toes.
Here read this, this covers the topic:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle2.htm

[kwaichang]

Ok, I read the article and the same biomechanics are emphasised in Japanese Karate the only difference is the moment of Kime in the Japanese arts. as far as SD is concerned the object is to do what is explained in your article with transitional movements but I will say it is not often emphasised. KC

[Leto]

I'm aware of the correlations between naha te/goju ryu and southern chinese styles like five ancestors and white crane. Shorin ryu/shuri te has less clear correlations. I'll have to look for that article about the Peichurrin and the general's book. Believe me, I have dug around a lot, and there's not a whole lot besides theories about what styles specifically influenced shorin ryu. goju ryu and uechi ryu are much closer to their chinese roots than shorin ryu is.

But this is all off the topic...I'm not questioning karate's Chinese roots, just looking for specifics.
It's the same with SD, except it is much closer to the root Chinese styles. I think most of its forms have matches or near matches in other styles that are currently practiced. Looking at these other styles might tell more about how the SD forms fit together, where to look for more instruction, how to fill in the gaps.
At least in the way I was taught, there are gaps. No offense to the SD believers, but it is obvious to me that we're not doing the forms correctly, (at least according to the way they are classically practiced).
Did GM The or his teachers make innovations that they believe improved upon the classic forms? Did they not know them well enough? Did they just not bother to teach the "real stuff" to us westerners? Whatever the case is, I want to know as much as I can.

before anyone says I should focus on training and not so much on seeking knowledge:
Seeking knowledge is not opposed to sincere practice...it's about adding elements of practice that are useful and removing those that are incorrect or detrimental. You can practice hard at the same time as learning new things and modifying your practice.

[Kung Pao]

Regarding biomechanics, the weight shifting/stepping issue was the first one I had to deal with when stepping into a "purist" CMA style. SD does misso ut on that, but it can be performed it without much trouble. I think that's why SD seems slpooy to some people.

[BlueTravesty]

As a non-SD'er, it kinda makes sense that SD would employ such a structure though- simply because it has in its curriculum so many different systems. Each of these systems emphasize not only different fighting strategies and ways of stepping and transitioning, but also radically different body structures. For example, you have Hua Quan, which is a Northern style. The typical "northern" structure is back straight and in some cases, arched to align with the tailbone, chin down and in, lots of longer-range strikes and kicks, with some throws close in. Then you also have Tiger Crane, a southern form from Hung Gar- the Hung Gar structure is a more "hunched in" head-on approach with more short-range striking, and less grappling. In stances, the butt is tucked in. My guess is to keep all the styles harmonized, the SD currciculum uses a "neutral" posture, body structure, and way of stepping that avoids the particulars of the individual systems so that one does not build contradictory habits.

Just an outsider's theory.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, there are so many thousands of people all over the USA now that are either in SD or have been in SD, so it no longer makes sense to keep saying "SD sucks", whether it is true or not is not doing anyone any service right now.

Regardless, SD has Chinese Martial Arts roots and uses forms/sets from various styles.

The most positive thing I can do for any current or former SD person is to help them discover and learn about the original traditional natural Chinese Martial Arts roots of their forms.

Also, learning about the ancient ways to do the sets and body mechanics is an ENORMOUS help making one the best martial arts one can be. By understanding WHY you do something in a set you will be able to apply the movements and make them part of your second nature much more easily and faster, thus you will accelerate your martial arts abilities and your training.

The fact that I have demolished anyone that has ever attacked me I attribute solely to the fact that I have internalized WHY movements work from spending so much time (over 30 years) researching, analyzing, and applying the most ancient and traditional methods, sets, and body mechanics of CMA.

And, the fact that I have been able to save people's lives via martial arts I again attribute to the same thing.

The study of why and where traditional CMA movements come from and their purpose allowed me to have a deep enough knowledge and ability to be able to revive accident victims when nothing else would have worked. Martial Art movement with out nei gong built into the movements is dead movement. It might look like martial art, but it is only dancing.

[Judge Pen]

As a non-SD'er, it kinda makes sense that SD would employ such a structure though- simply because it has in its curriculum so many different systems. Each of these systems emphasize not only different fighting strategies and ways of stepping and transitioning, but also radically different body structures. For example, you have Hua Quan, which is a Northern style. The typical "northern" structure is back straight and in some cases, arched to align with the tailbone, chin down and in, lots of longer-range strikes and kicks, with some throws close in. Then you also have Tiger Crane, a southern form from Hung Gar- the Hung Gar structure is a more "hunched in" head-on approach with more short-range striking, and less grappling. In stances, the butt is tucked in. My guess is to keep all the styles harmonized, the SD currciculum uses a "neutral" posture, body structure, and way of stepping that avoids the particulars of the individual systems so that one does not build contradictory habits.

Just an outsider's theory.

I think this is an unintentional consequence of the various styles that are taught in SD. By the way, the "neutral" posture you reference is actually the postures taught in our short-form (which I've described as the back-bone of SD). It's not that the different principles of Hua or Tiger-Crane are not taught, its just that when its said and then done, people tend to go back to their foundations.

Sal, interesting article on "double-weighted" body mechanics. I'm sure, however, we can put our heads together and find CMA styles that employ double-weighted mechanics. CMA is a large and diverse place.

[Baqualin]

Well, there are so many thousands of people all over the USA now that are either in SD or have been in SD, so it no longer makes sense to keep saying "SD sucks", whether it is true or not is not doing anyone any service right now.

Regardless, SD has Chinese Martial Arts roots and uses forms/sets from various styles.

The most positive thing I can do for any current or former SD person is to help them discover and learn about the original traditional natural Chinese Martial Arts roots of their forms.

Also, learning about the ancient ways to do the sets and body mechanics is an ENORMOUS help making one the best martial arts one can be. By understanding WHY you do something in a set you will be able to apply the movements and make them part of your second nature much more easily and faster, thus you will accelerate your martial arts abilities and your training.

The fact that I have demolished anyone that has ever attacked me I attribute solely to the fact that I have internalized WHY movements work from spending so much time (over 30 years) researching, analyzing, and applying the most ancient and traditional methods, sets, and body mechanics of CMA.

And, the fact that I have been able to save people's lives via martial arts I again attribute to the same thing.

The study of why and where traditional CMA movements come from and their purpose allowed me to have a deep enough knowledge and ability to be able to revive accident victims when nothing else would have worked. Martial Art movement with out nei gong built into the movements is dead movement. It might look like martial art, but it is only dancing.

Thanks for your attitude Sal....most all SDers are very dedicated to the CMA's and any insight or constructive criticism you have is more than welcome
A lot of the problems with SD is the size of our organization...by the time a form gets passed on by various teachers it is slightly changed each time from person to person...it's no longer one or two teachers, teaching everyone
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

I think this is an unintentional consequence of the various styles that are taught in SD. By the way, the "neutral" posture you reference is actually the postures taught in our short-form (which I've described as the back-bone of SD). It's not that the different principles of Hua or Tiger-Crane are not taught, its just that when its said and then done, people tend to go back to their foundations.

Sal, interesting article on "double-weighted" body mechanics. I'm sure, however, we can put our heads together and find CMA styles that employ double-weighted mechanics. CMA is a large and diverse place.

If a CMA style "became" double-weighted over time via "playing telephone" and doing things the lazy or ignorant way, then this is more a reflect of teacher's screwing this up than a CMA style that is "Supposed" to be double weighted.
Double weighted means death, as anyone that knows sword sets understands (hopefully).

What might appear as a double-weighted CMA, such as southern CMA that are used on boats (Southern Tai Tzu, beggar's style, Wing Chun, etc) are in actuality using the body as a surfer or skateboarder would (or like when you are standing on a subway floor without having a pole to hold on to), which means you are shifting weight to one side of the other very smoothly. If you stayed completely double weighted when subway surfing, you would tip over.

[Crushing Fist]

Sal - I am very interested in your understanding of body mechanics.


One things I would like to clear up is this:

You said that Karate is double weighted

You also said that double weighted means death.


The natural inference is that you feel karate to be at best misguided, and at worst completely useless.

Could you reconcile your meaning of these two points to make it a bit more clear?


For the record, I have been taught in SD not to be double weighted in most circumstances.

[Lamassu]

What might appear as a double-weighted CMA, such as southern CMA that are used on boats (Southern Tai Tzu, beggar's style, Wing Chun, etc) are in actuality using the body as a surfer or skateboarder would (or like when you are standing on a subway floor without having a pole to hold on to), which means you are shifting weight to one side of the other very smoothly. If you stayed completely double weighted when subway surfing, you would tip over.

Kewl! :cool: I thought I was the only one who subway surfed (or 'L' surfing here in Chicago). It was very difficult at first, but I learned how to shift my body weight in accordance with the g-forces in play and now find my stances are more firmly rooted. :)

Everything is Training!!!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal - I am very interested in your understanding of body mechanics.


One things I would like to clear up is this:

You said that Karate is double weighted

You also said that double weighted means death.


The natural inference is that you feel karate to be at best misguided, and at worst completely useless.

Could you reconcile your meaning of these two points to make it a bit more clear?


For the record, I have been taught in SD not to be double weighted in most circumstances.

Not that karate sucks, Okinawan Karate is great.

Just that much modern mcDojo 'karate' has by process of playing telephone watered down and all double weighted.

By death I mean that you simply cannot on the street do double weighted moves, you will be anchored with a strong stance in only one direction. Ancient sources always implied that double weightedness would cause your death. IN a confrontation you have to be as nimble AND flexibly rooted as a bull fighter is.

Also even if not double weighted there has to be smooth flow, like a leveraging machine, so that energy is not cut off between the movements.
The action is BETWEEN the postures, not the postures themselves in a form.
The postures are only transition movements.

Modern karate thinks of Horse stance, bow stance, etc as posture to "stop" at, like stations, when doing a kata. Whereas, real CMA uses postures when going through someone, they are used in action not frozen, the action between the postures do the real work and the postures are transition movements to the next flowing part.

[Crushing Fist]

Not that karate sucks, Okinawan Karate is great.

Just that much modern mcDojo 'karate' has by process of playing telephone watered down and all double weighted.

By death I mean that you simply cannot on the street do double weighted moves, you will be anchored with a strong stance in only one direction. Ancient sources always implied that double weightedness would cause your death. IN a confrontation you have to be as nimble AND flexibly rooted as a bull fighter is.

Also even if not double weighted there has to be smooth flow, like a leveraging machine, so that energy is not cut off between the movements.
The action is BETWEEN the postures, not the postures themselves in a form.
The postures are only transition movements.

Modern karate thinks of Horse stance, bow stance, etc as posture to "stop" at, like stations, when doing a kata. Whereas, real CMA uses postures when going through someone, they are used in action not frozen, the action between the postures do the real work and the postures are transition movements to the next flowing part.



Yes, I agree with all of this.

I think that any martial art, done well, will have these principles.

[kwaichang]

I agree except your concept of Karate is wrong as a STOP and then continueing on KC

[The Xia]

I agree with kwaichang that Karate is not "stop and go". I think "stop and go" movement is more something that beginners of any style often do.

[kwaichang]

Hey Xia I am going to find a way to print your post and frame it , we finally agreed about something KC

[The Xia]

I was thinking about adding a part about hell freezing over but decided to let it stand as is. :D
Now all we need is something for you and Meatshake to agree on! :eek:

[Sal Canzonieri]

yeah, if only people were going past that beginner stage, but they aren't.
Come on, these mcdojo's (there are 10 karate schools in a 3 mile radius where I live in NJ!!!!!) are churning out black belts at 12 years of age like it was a white belt.
By 20 years old they haven't gone past doing this craparate that they are learning in mass. My favorite thing to do at a party is to tell one of these people to attack me with their best shot, and I take them down in seconds and then gently place them down on the ground like they were little babies. They always look amazed. Till I tell them that they just spend 10 years getting ripped off and then they look not happy.

IF you don't know that you didn't learn the correct things, then how do you know what is correct when you see it? You can't, you can't recognize it, you're blind to it, someone has to specifically point details out to you in that case.

How can a novice go into a class and "observe" the school, what the heck do they know? How in any way possible would this novice knowing by "observing" if the school is just junk? How would they know what to look for? How would they recognize excellence?

[The Xia]

I don't judge styles by mcdojos that claim to teach them. Mcdojos don't truly represent the arts they claim to teach. It’s the real practitioners that show what a style is about.

[Citong Shifu]

I don't judge styles by mcdojos that claim to teach them. Mcdojos don't truly represent the arts they claim to teach. It’s the real practitioners that show what a style is about.

Good post Xia, well said.

[Crushing Fist]

How can a novice go into a class and "observe" the school, what the heck do they know? How in any way possible would this novice knowing by "observing" if the school is just junk? How would they know what to look for? How would they recognize excellence?

I think that a reasonably intelligent and unbiased person can tell the difference between mediocrity and excellence in most things, when shown both.

If they had never seen excellence, mediocrity may be thought more than it is, but upon seeing true excellence, it generally speaks for itself.

[kwaichang]

TRUE, HOWEVER there is more mediocrity than excellence. When I 1st started it was different there were few if any schools, In the town I worked in at 18 , there were 65000 people and only 2 schools of MA and no CMA at all/ KC

[Judge Pen]

What might appear as a double-weighted CMA, such as southern CMA that are used on boats (Southern Tai Tzu, beggar's style, Wing Chun, etc) are in actuality using the body as a surfer or skateboarder would (or like when you are standing on a subway floor without having a pole to hold on to), which means you are shifting weight to one side of the other very smoothly. If you stayed completely double weighted when subway surfing, you would tip over.

That's what I'm interested in. Hung Gar for example. The tiger-crane sets that I've seen outside of SD start in a stable horse stance or a "triangle" stance like wing-chun. I understand that many of these styles developed because of boat fighting, but the forms don't reflect the surfing motion as you point out. Their stance is strong and stable.

I will say that many forms in SD and in other CMA have stable stances for conditioning purposes, but the stance itslef is ony a transition from move to move. At least that's my understanding, but I can see from the earlier posts (that I didn't read until I started posting) that this concept has already been discussed.

[Sal Canzonieri]

That's what I'm interested in. Hung Gar for example. The tiger-crane sets that I've seen outside of SD start in a stable horse stance or a "triangle" stance like wing-chun. I understand that many of these styles developed because of boat fighting, but the forms don't reflect the surfing motion as you point out. Their stance is strong and stable.

I will say that many forms in SD and in other CMA have stable stances for conditioning purposes, but the stance itslef is ony a transition from move to move. At least that's my understanding, but I can see from the earlier posts (that I didn't read until I started posting) that this concept has already been discussed.

BECAUSE:
The opening stances for these forms are CHI-Gong / Nei Gong, you are supposed to use special breathing methods to cultivate "chi" and then have it flow through you when you do the rest of the form's movements.

Forms in CMA aren't only a collection of techniques for self-defense, they are first and foremost nei-gong exercises. The internal aspects are interwoven into the movements, forms are for generating health, they are moving yoga.
As opposed to chi-gong exercises where you maintain a static posture, forms allow muscle-tendon stretching and strengthening, along with deep breathing benefits.
So, that's why the openings of every CMA is a standing posture, they are internal movements.

(and the Wing Chun 'triangle' stance and hung gar horse stance are indeed from boat use, read the history of these styles, they came from members of the opera that lived on boats)

[Judge Pen]

BECAUSE:
The opening stances for these forms are CHI-Gong / Nei Gong, you are supposed to use special breathing methods to cultivate "chi" and then have it flow through you when you do the rest of the form's movements.

Forms in CMA aren't only a collection of techniques for self-defense, they are first and foremost nei-gong exercises. The internal aspects are interwoven into the movements, forms are for generating health, they are moving yoga.
As opposed to chi-gong exercises where you maintain a static posture, forms allow muscle-tendon stretching and strengthening, along with deep breathing benefits.
So, that's why the openings of every CMA is a standing posture, they are internal movements.

(and the Wing Chun 'triangle' stance and hung gar horse stance are indeed from boat use, read the history of these styles, they came from members of the opera that lived on boats)

I wasn't disputing the history of the stances and their original intent, I was just saying that their typically isn't a "surfing" motion in those stances. I appreciate the nei-gong aspects of these styles. It's just that hung gar really emphasizes this in the begining of forms such as Tiger-Crane. Its also great strenghting and conditioning as well.

[Citong Shifu]

I wasn't disputing the history of the stances and their original intent, I was just saying that their typically isn't a "surfing" motion in those stances. I appreciate the nei-gong aspects of these styles. It's just that hung gar really emphasizes this in the begining of forms such as Tiger-Crane. Its also great strenghting and conditioning as well.


This is very interesting! Southern styles of kungfu and the short deep stances. Let me reply to the boat theory first. This is true, when on the boats kungfu stylist would use a short deep stance, but out of the boat, they would use what was natural and necessary for that situation.

Forms in general are or were trained as a way to condition the body (internal / external, ROM, flexibility, speed, power, stability, etc) and martial technique / principles. These forms were designed to be trained with the person working from unusual and restrictive postions so that the person could react with confidence while being at a disadvantage point. So, when a person moved naturally they would be 100 times stronger, faster, etc... Regardless if in a short, high, long, deep stance...

I bring this up because there is always so much debate on this stance and that stance. Northern or southern. Etc.

I know there are differences between how the teachers teach there art, short deep horse vs. triangle horse, etc. However training the forms are a guide and condition the body. If you think for one minute Wong Fei Hung only use short deep stance and low kicks all the time or an old time Wing Chun master only used the short restrictive WC footwork training in a real situation, then some more research is advisable...

You guys can take this for what you think its worth, but remember, once you limit yourself to one way of doing something, you have limited your overall potential...

This post does not mean to be demeaning, just find it curious that so many debates arise over this or that stance work....

Respectfully.
Ron.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This is very interesting! Southern styles of kungfu and the short deep stances. Let me reply to the boat theory first. This is true, when on the boats kungfu stylist would use a short deep stance, but out of the boat, they would use what was natural and necessary for that situation.

Forms in general are or were trained as a way to condition the body (internal / external, ROM, flexibility, speed, power, stability, etc) and martial technique / principles. These forms were designed to be trained with the person working from unusual and restrictive postions so that the person could react with confidence while being at a disadvantage point. So, when a person moved naturally they would be 100 times stronger, faster, etc... Regardless if in a short, high, long, deep stance...

I bring this up because there is always so much debate on this stance and that stance. Northern or southern. Etc.

I know there are differences between how the teachers teach there art, short deep horse vs. triangle horse, etc. However training the forms are a guide and condition the body. If you think for one minute Wong Fei Hung only use short deep stance and low kicks all the time or an old time Wing Chun master only used the short restrictive WC footwork training in a real situation, then some more research is advisable...

You guys can take this for what you think its worth, but remember, once you limit yourself to one way of doing something, you have limited your overall potential...

This post does not mean to be demeaning, just find it curious that so many debates arise over this or that stance work....

Respectfully.
Ron.

I agree, BUT they (the old masters) surely, whether using deep or not deep stances when executing an application, used CORRECT CMA body mechanics.

Whether deep or not deep, they kept their knees in alignment with their toes, they opened or closed the Kua, they kept their knees slightly bent (even in the not deep stances), they kept their shoulders in alignment with waist, they didn't move their arms independent of the waist, they kept their centerline, etc, etc.

Breaking any of these rules would have destroyed their root.

[ninthdrunk]

This may be blasphemous, but I think a lot of times, the masters just did their forms and fought. I wonder how much thought they put into the forms other than, "am I moving as fast and as powerfully as I can." I bet there were some whose forms were kinda crappy, who didn't train with proper mechanics, but were still amazingly capable fighters and teachers.

Just as there are masters and practitioners today who vary in degree of ability and understanding, I'm willing to bet it was the same back then. I tell my students, "if you can't do the technique right, get really good at doing it wrong. a powerful punch, thrown with poor mechanics, is still a powerful punch."

Sure there's an optimal way to do things, and I'm not pushing anyone away from striving for perfection, but we have to remember that the masters of old, just like us today, had flaws. Some would have laughed at these discussions, while others, probably the ones who passed on the information y'all are discussing, would have nodded in approval.

[Baqualin]

I've been recently told by a student / teacher from another kung fu school that doesn't practice forms...even in their Tai Chi, that all forms were developed in the last 100 years & that the old masters never taught forms....this goes against what I've always been taught...Sal, Gene, Xia, MK, JP, KC, CS..... what are your or anyones opinion on this.
BQ

[MasterKiller]

I've been recently told by a student / teacher from another kung fu school that doesn't practice forms...even in their Tai Chi, that all forms were developed in the last 100 years & that the old masters never taught forms....this goes against what I've always been taught...Sal, Gene, Xia, MK, JP, KC, CS..... what are your or anyones opinion on this.
BQ

The emphasis on forms is a modern invention, starting with the Jing Wu academy. Once public schools opened, they needed something to teach in order to bring in $.

I believe forms have always been around as a training apparatus in one way or another, but most systems would only have a handful, between 3 and 10.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I've been recently told by a student / teacher from another kung fu school that doesn't practice forms...even in their Tai Chi, that all forms were developed in the last 100 years & that the old masters never taught forms....this goes against what I've always been taught...Sal, Gene, Xia, MK, JP, KC, CS..... what are your or anyones opinion on this.
BQ

Last 100 years? Nah. Also depends on if you are looking at military or non-military sets.

Original CMA is only Shuai Jiao (named that in 1930s but existing for over 3,000 years) and Tong Bei and Sword Fighting (existing for over 2,000 years). These styles had no forms, they were composed of many sets of moves and exercises.

Actual sets or forms of pre-arranged movements have been around at the earliest since the mid or late Song dynasty, before that there was no forms, just sets of techniques. These pre-arranged sets became the fastest and easiest way to train a lot of people at the same time for military purposes. Also at Shaolin and other temples they began creating some form-like material (Tai Tzu, XinYi Ba). Before that Shaolin and other places had nei gung sets (Rou Gong/ ROu Quan, Luohan Gong.

And even these early forms were the same as when there was no forms, meaning that originally forms were collections of loose techniques that could be done interchangably with each other as far as order of movements was concerned.

What was like a "form" is the nei gong sets of a style though.

Shaolin, Wudang, Emei, etc etc began to have sets of nei gong that the movements could be used for self defense for a very long time.

Ming Dynasty there were many forms already created as styles were pretty solodified by then. General Qi Chiqang's famous military manual named styles that were already known for their forms by this time.
Ching Dynasty has tons of form in every style.

100 years ago is only 1907, the styles from that time had roots in forms from the 1600s on.

So, that's not correct statement.

[BentMonk]

My unique training requirements have limited the number of forms I know. Not because there isn't always a new and interesting place to land a knee or an elbow, but from a practical stand point. The more I practice the forms I know, the more power and effectiveness the technique will have when applied. IMO it all goes back to the old saying, "I do not fear the 10,000 techniques you have practiced once. I fear the one technique you have practiced 10,000 times." I think I'm getting close to 10,000 punches...given and taken. :D

[Citong Shifu]

I agree, BUT they (the old masters) surely, whether using deep or not deep stances when executing an application, used CORRECT CMA body mechanics.

Whether deep or not deep, they kept their knees in alignment with their toes, they opened or closed the Kua, they kept their knees slightly bent (even in the not deep stances), they kept their shoulders in alignment with waist, they didn't move their arms independent of the waist, they kept their centerline, etc, etc.

Breaking any of these rules would have destroyed their root.

I agree! Well most of the time they did, lol... sometimes we just find ourselves in crazy positions, lol.... Yes, your right though....

[BoulderDawg]

Last 100 years? Nah. Also depends on if you are looking at military or non-military sets.

Original CMA is only Shuai Jiao (named that in 1930s but existing for over 3,000 years) and Tong Bei and Sword Fighting (existing for over 2,000 years). These styles had no forms, they were composed of many sets of moves and exercises.

Actual sets or forms of pre-arranged movements have been around at the earliest since the mid or late Song dynasty, before that there was no forms, just sets of techniques. These pre-arranged sets became the fastest and easiest way to train a lot of people at the same time for military purposes. Also at Shaolin and other temples they began creating some form-like material (Tai Tzu, XinYi Ba). Before that Shaolin and other places had nei gung sets (Rou Gong/ ROu Quan, Luohan Gong.

And even these early forms were the same as when there was no forms, meaning that originally forms were collections of loose techniques that could be done interchangably with each other as far as order of movements was concerned.

What was like a "form" is the nei gong sets of a style though.

Shaolin, Wudang, Emei, etc etc began to have sets of nei gong that the movements could be used for self defense for a very long time.


100 years ago is only 1907, the styles from that time had roots in forms from the 1600s on.

I would say that was probably a fairly accurate statement. So much has been lost in the unheavel in China. I think if you could go back in time you would find the forms back then were nothing like how we preform them today.....and going back to the 1600s.....more myth than fact there.

However is that a bad thing? I don't think so....as with everything MA has to evolve.

[Baqualin]

Last 100 years? Nah. Also depends on if you are looking at military or non-military sets.

Original CMA is only Shuai Jiao (named that in 1930s but existing for over 3,000 years) and Tong Bei and Sword Fighting (existing for over 2,000 years). These styles had no forms, they were composed of many sets of moves and exercises.

Actual sets or forms of pre-arranged movements have been around at the earliest since the mid or late Song dynasty, before that there was no forms, just sets of techniques. These pre-arranged sets became the fastest and easiest way to train a lot of people at the same time for military purposes. Also at Shaolin and other temples they began creating some form-like material (Tai Tzu, XinYi Ba). Before that Shaolin and other places had nei gung sets (Rou Gong/ ROu Quan, Luohan Gong.

And even these early forms were the same as when there was no forms, meaning that originally forms were collections of loose techniques that could be done interchangably with each other as far as order of movements was concerned.

What was like a "form" is the nei gong sets of a style though.

Shaolin, Wudang, Emei, etc etc began to have sets of nei gong that the movements could be used for self defense for a very long time.

Ming Dynasty there were many forms already created as styles were pretty solodified by then. General Qi Chiqang's famous military manual named styles that were already known for their forms by this time.
Ching Dynasty has tons of form in every style.

100 years ago is only 1907, the styles from that time had roots in forms from the 1600s on.

So, that's not correct statement.

Thanks!!!,
BQ

[Citong Shifu]

Last 100 years? Nah. Also depends on if you are looking at military or non-military sets.

Original CMA is only Shuai Jiao (named that in 1930s but existing for over 3,000 years) and Tong Bei and Sword Fighting (existing for over 2,000 years). These styles had no forms, they were composed of many sets of moves and exercises.

Actual sets or forms of pre-arranged movements have been around at the earliest since the mid or late Song dynasty, before that there was no forms, just sets of techniques. These pre-arranged sets became the fastest and easiest way to train a lot of people at the same time for military purposes. Also at Shaolin and other temples they began creating some form-like material (Tai Tzu, XinYi Ba). Before that Shaolin and other places had nei gung sets (Rou Gong/ ROu Quan, Luohan Gong.

And even these early forms were the same as when there was no forms, meaning that originally forms were collections of loose techniques that could be done interchangably with each other as far as order of movements was concerned.

What was like a "form" is the nei gong sets of a style though.

Shaolin, Wudang, Emei, etc etc began to have sets of nei gong that the movements could be used for self defense for a very long time.

Ming Dynasty there were many forms already created as styles were pretty solodified by then. General Qi Chiqang's famous military manual named styles that were already known for their forms by this time.
Ching Dynasty has tons of form in every style.

100 years ago is only 1907, the styles from that time had roots in forms from the 1600s on.

So, that's not correct statement.


Our Shaolin and Tongbei forms are what we call "pre-1900's" so I think some of the forms people train today are more than 100 years old. And, I do agree on how forms are taught today compared to 100, 200, 300 years, etc. As I was told by my teacher, forms were originally taught in short combo's. After each section or combo you would then learn the application for that particular set of moves. Now, as you became proficeint and mastered those sets of moves, you were then taught another set or combo of moves, once they were perfected, you were taught the applications, etc. This would go on until you reached the end of the form or style (styles were sometimes on super long form or tao lu). Now, at the end of your form or style, you would connect all the section or combos giving you the form or the style and knowledge of all the application within. This is why is took sometimes 1 to 2 years to train or complete a single set. Unlike today, 3 sets in a month, lol... I can see why forms training is looked down on by some, they just aren't taught the way they were in the old days.

Also, even though our forms are pre-1900's, I have been told that there is some differences in the way we train them apposed to the old teachers or students. Of course, this is due to every master who carries his lineage adds a lilttle of their own spice here and there, hopefully leaving the style just as functional or more efficeint than the first, etc...

Anywho, just something to think about..

Take care everyone!

[Baqualin]

Our Shaolin and Tongbei forms are what we call "pre-1900's" so I think some of the forms people train today are more than 100 years old. And, I do agree on how forms are taught today compared to 100, 200, 300 years, etc. As I was told by my teacher, forms were originally taught in short combo's. After each section or combo you would then learn the application for that particular set of moves. Now, as you became proficeint and mastered those sets of moves, you were then taught another set or combo of moves, once they were perfected, you were taught the applications, etc. This would go on until you reached the end of the form or style (styles were sometimes on super long form or tao lu). Now, at the end of your form or style, you would connect all the section or combos giving you the form or the style and knowledge of all the application within. This is why is took sometimes 1 to 2 years to train or complete a single set. Unlike today, 3 sets in a month, lol... I can see why forms training is looked down on by some, they just aren't taught the way they were in the old days.

Also, even though our forms are pre-1900's, I have been told that there is some differences in the way we train them apposed to the old teachers or students. Of course, this is due to every master who carries his lineage adds a lilttle of their own spice here and there, hopefully leaving the style just as functional or more efficeint than the first, etc...

Anywho, just something to think about..

Take care everyone!

Hey CS,
I like the short combo routine...seems like that would be a great way to really understand the form...our first Pakua form is taught this way, learn a section first, then the applications are taught for that section before the student moves on. It takes about 2 to 2 1/2 years to teach out......students have a better grasp this way.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Hey CS,
I like the short combo routine...seems like that would be a great way to really understand the form...our first Pakua form is taught this way, learn a section first, then the applications are taught for that section before the student moves on. It takes about 2 to 2 1/2 years to teach out......students have a better grasp this way.
BQ

Short form is taught that way too.