Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[djcaldwell]

BTW, I'm really just trying to push the thread up past 350 pages...

I'll be up for a while - think we could make 350 tonight - I just have to start responding to GomerPile again and we're there.

[Knifefighter]

No , we were talking about MMA ring fighters then MMA street fighter they are two different things as well.....

Not necessarily.

[sean_stonehart]

I know you have knowledge of both. I wasn't implying one is like the other any more than in the patterns of the forms. And how the forms move between techniques. And somtimes the tempo. Nothing else. As I said, the techniques and strikes are waaaay different.

Gotcha... :D

[xcakid]

BTW, I'm really just trying to push the thread up past 350 pages...



Hell, I am trying to get the USSD thread to catch up to this one. Problem is, no one wants to defend USSD. If they do, they pretty don't have much of an argument.

[SenseiShellie]

Hell, I am trying to get the USSD thread to catch up to this one. Problem is, no one wants to defend USSD. If they do, they pretty don't have much of an argument.

LOL! So true...

[sunfist]

What do you know about SD?? Do you have a high rank in it, have you practiced it for a long period of time ,have you been to advanced black belt seminars?? How many forms do you know??

I am actually the real gradmaster of shaolin do, as is verified by my lineage of people nobody but my sect has ever heard of, which is very similar to your equally unverifiable lineage, but obviously shorter, thus making me the grandmaster.

[Lamassu]

I am actually the real gradmaster of shaolin do, as is verified by my lineage of people nobody but my sect has ever heard of, which is very similar to your equally unverifiable lineage, but obviously shorter, thus making me the grandmaster.

You are so funny! Oh my god, I can't believe how hilarious that is! You should do stand up, you're just outrageous! Wow, I haven't laughed this hard since Bruce Lee died! :D

[sunfist]

Im glad we see eye to eye on these things.

[tattooedmonk]

SH!T.......:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

...a whole bunch of mantis videos in the video thread on this forum.

I have to say that a lot a people talk trash about SD and our lack of real CMA material , understanding , etc., but specifically mantis.

I have no idea why when as I can see they are the same forms,( refering to the ones which have been released),and these guys are worse than anyone in SD that I have ever seen.

And you guys think that these are Good??

Do not get me wrong I saw a lot of impressive videos as well, but come on there are good and bad in everything .
( yinyang principle) .

I also have noticed that when it come to people criticizing your styles on the same things you guys talk trash about us you justify it and give the same explanations we have. What is the difference??

Oh that is right we do not practice real Shaolin , CMA , or Kung Fu.:rolleyes:

[BentMonk]

I've said many times that if someone with good form from SD posted vids on this forum they would not receive a fair review. Too many knee jerk "oh it's SD it sucks" reactions. It's too bad that most in SD who have great form totally do not care about this discussion. I'd post vids of myself, but my form would suck even if it wasn't adapted to suit my CP. :D

[cjurakpt]

I've said many times that if someone with good form from SD posted vids on this forum they would not receive a fair review. Too many knee jerk "oh it's SD it sucks" reactions. It's too bad that most in SD who have great form totally do not care about this discussion. I'd post vids of myself, but my form would suck even if it wasn't adapted to suit my CP. :D

nice set-up, but it's a straw man argument: in other words, pre-supposing that the rationale behind a negative comment is because of the context instead of the content is a thinly veiled attempt to "head off at the pass" someone with a valid criticism; for example, if you read my commentary on a video of a broadsword vs. spear set (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782&page=338), you will see that I say nothing about the skill of the participants nor about whether it is "real" Shaolin or not and I draw no conclusions about SD in general; my comments focused soley its technical aspects, e.g. - whether the weapons were being used in a way that, given their respective characteristics, made sense in terms of strategic combat useage; interestingly enough, the rebuttles came only in the form of comments to the effect of "oh, you can't judge SD by people whose skill level is low, etc."; again, the skill of the practitioners can be low or high, but it doesn't change the content of the form: illogical moves with a weapon are as such regardless of how well they are done, and quite frankly, most of the moves were illogical: for example, there is no range changing in the form at all: a major component of 2-person sets is to get both practitioners to learn how to use their weapon in a range that is inherently less advantageous (e.g. - spears at short range, swords at long range), and also how to get themselves out of that and back into the optimal range; Idon't care who you are or what style you do, if you don't have that aspect as part of a two-man weapons set you are wasting your time - and this is true even for basic 2-man sets, so don't pull up the "it's a beginner's 2-person" BS excuse;

BTW, there's one other thing I've noticed: every vid that does get posted, the SD supporters to a man decry it as a bad example of SD; would one of the SD authorities kindly provide a link to what they consider to be a good example?

[tattooedmonk]

nice set-up, but it's a straw man argument: in other words, pre-supposing that the rationale behind a negative comment is because of the context instead of the content is a thinly veiled attempt to "head off at the pass" someone with a valid criticism; for example, if you read my commentary on a video of a broadsword vs. spear set (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782&page=338), you will see that I say nothing about the skill of the participants nor about whether it is "real" Shaolin or not and I draw no conclusions about SD in general; my comments focused soley its technical aspects, e.g. - whether the weapons were being used in a way that, given their respective characteristics, made sense in terms of strategic combat useage; interestingly enough, the rebuttles came only in the form of comments to the effect of "oh, you can't judge SD by people whose skill level is low, etc."; again, the skill of the practitioners can be low or high, but it doesn't change the content of the form: illogical moves with a weapon are as such regardless of how well they are done, and quite frankly, most of the moves were illogical: for example, there is no range changing in the form at all: a major component of 2-person sets is to get both practitioners to learn how to use their weapon in a range that is inherently less advantageous (e.g. - spears at short range, swords at long range), and also how to get themselves out of that and back into the optimal range; Idon't care who you are or what style you do, if you don't have that aspect as part of a two-man weapons set you are wasting your time - and this is true even for basic 2-man sets, so don't pull up the "it's a beginner's 2-person" BS excuse;

BTW, there's one other thing I've noticed: every vid that does get posted, the SD supporters to a man decry it as a bad example of SD; would one of the SD authorities kindly provide a link to what they consider to be a good example? I am not saying some of the criticisms are not valid, just that they are excused and justified by others who are not in SD and are doing the same things in their arts and forms. I am talking about the same things you are in this post and just because they are with some well known master or any of the other reasons they are excused but not in SD.

Why ??

They will not post forms because they will get sued, they have the threat of law suit , striping of their rank hanging over their head if they do, and / getting kicked out , losing friends,or they just do not care about this forum and what anyone thinks about how it looks as long as it is effective .

I will not lower myself to say that it is a beginners 2 man set . Most people do not have the time to rehearse/ practice the set with anyone person consistantly, they constantly have to change partners, and plus they have no clue as to what you are talking about here ,which I totally agree with and agreed with you back in post 5067.Plus most people in CSC are hobbiest and do it for health and for a social activity and basically buy their belts and do not earn them .Even at black belt.

IMHO this sucks and is a discrace to the Art, Master Sin and the lineage.But it is partly his fault. Now it is a mostly just business , how many forms are obtained, etc. The Soards do not care about it like they used to.

[cjurakpt]

I am not saying some of the criticisms are not valid, just that they are excused and justified by others who are not in SD and are doing the same things in their arts and forms. I am talking about the same things you are in this post and just because they are with some well known master or any of the other reasons they are excused but not in SD.

Why ??

They will not post forms because they will get sued, they have the threat of law suit , striping of their rank hanging over their head if they do, and / getting kicked out , losing friends,or they just do not care about this forum and what anyone thinks about how it looks as long as it is effective .

I will not lower myself to say that it is a beginners 2 man set . Most people do not have the time to rehearse/ practice the set with anyone person consistantly, they constantly have to change partners, and plus they have no clue as to what you are talking about here ,which I totally agree with and agreed with you back in post 5067.Plus most people in CSC are hobbiest and do it for health and for a social activity and basically buy their belts and do not earn them .Even at black belt.

IMHO this sucks and is a discrace to the Art, Master Sin and the lineage.But it is partly his fault. Now it is a mostly just business , how many forms are obtained, etc. The Soards do not care about it like they used to.

ok, you make some valid points; but first off, I must say that if the reason someone is not posting forms is because they are under threat of reprisal, legal or othewise, that's pretty sad: I mean, who really cares? what are they paranoid about? someone seeing the form and stealing some hidden secrets? gimmie a break; or, as my teacher says, let someone see everything he's got, good luck trying to reproduce the essence; it's pretty silly...

anyway, the bottom line is that the form I saw was sorely lacking in terms of intrinsic value, regardless of who was doing it or how many partners they were doing it with: theoretically, that shouldn't matter; of course, if the content has been watered down to fit the performer, that's understandable - and nothing new! to wit: Master Yang Lu Chan did quite a bit of accommodation for his students who were nobility - now, 150 years later, his watering down has become authentic tradition! so , maybe in another 150 the CSC forms will be the same...

that said, I would still like to see at least ONE example of a SD form that cannot be dis-qualified by saying that the practitioner was butchering it or what not: is there not at least one person out there who can post even 15 seconds doing an SD form the way it's supposed to be done?

[tattooedmonk]

when I get my computer fixed I plan to post some videos.

[WhiteEarp]

Master Yang Lu Chan did quite a bit of accommodation for his students who were nobility - now, 150 years later, his watering down has become authentic tradition! so , maybe in another 150 the CSC forms will be the same...



Hmm, the arts are dying out i guess. That's what is happening to our art. Masters don't tell their students everything.
Because students who are not ready to use certain powers cannot be trusted with them and thus become a danger for their fellow students and their master.
So some secrets die in the grave.

And each generation lacks a little bit of the original knowledge.
So today it becomes a sport for athletes. True knowledge gone with the wind. Or is it?

There are some masters who "Rediscover" certain secrets.
And this will allways be the circle.
Some things get lost until found again.
And people who have the ability to rediscover those secrets are the people who are ready to use them.

So, don't abandon all hope yet!

[Judge Pen]

Hmm, the arts are dying out i guess. That's what is happening to our art. Masters don't tell their students everything.
Because students who are not ready to use certain powers cannot be trusted with them and thus become a danger for their fellow students and their master.
So some secrets die in the grave.

And each generation lacks a little bit of the original knowledge.
So today it becomes a sport for athletes. True knowledge gone with the wind. Or is it?

There are some masters who "Rediscover" certain secrets.
And this will allways be the circle.
Some things get lost until found again.
And people who have the ability to rediscover those secrets are the people who are ready to use them.

So, don't abandon all hope yet!


Did you get more pics together or even some clips of the forms that Master Ie taught your teacher? We were waiting for that info.

[BentMonk]

cjurakpt - Your points are valid, and you weren't style bashing. Unfortunately you are the exception rather than the rule. I, like TTM have noticed that the same critiques that are used to slam SD are overlooked in vids from more accepted styles. I'm not sure why this is, but that's how it is and likely always will be.

[brucereiter]

ok, you make some valid points; but first off, I must say that if the reason someone is not posting forms is because they are under threat of reprisal, legal or othewise, that's pretty sad: I mean, who really cares? what are they paranoid about? someone seeing the form and stealing some hidden secrets? gimmie a break; or, as my teacher says, let someone see everything he's got, good luck trying to reproduce the essence; it's pretty silly...

anyway, the bottom line is that the form I saw was sorely lacking in terms of intrinsic value, regardless of who was doing it or how many partners they were doing it with: theoretically, that shouldn't matter; of course, if the content has been watered down to fit the performer, that's understandable - and nothing new! to wit: Master Yang Lu Chan did quite a bit of accommodation for his students who were nobility - now, 150 years later, his watering down has become authentic tradition! so , maybe in another 150 the CSC forms will be the same...

that said, I would still like to see at least ONE example of a SD form that cannot be dis-qualified by saying that the practitioner was butchering it or what not: is there not at least one person out there who can post even 15 seconds doing an SD form the way it's supposed to be done?

HI ...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ

THIS IS ME:-)

ya get more than 15 seconds.

enjoy ... any constructive comments are welcome.

[Yao Sing]

Props for putting yourself out there but I was hoping to see some Shaolin Kung Fu a la Shaolin Do. Maybe some of that Hua or a bird set we always hear about.

Something with some good apps. Anyone got a clip like that worth watching? (I'll let the internal guys post feedback on your clips)

[MasterKiller]

cjurakpt - Your points are valid, and you weren't style bashing. Unfortunately you are the exception rather than the rule. I, like TTM have noticed that the same critiques that are used to slam SD are overlooked in vids from more accepted styles. I'm not sure why this is, but that's how it is and likely always will be.

Don't use lame excuses, BM. You're tougher than that.

[BoulderDawg]

Hmm, the arts are dying out i guess. That's what is happening to our art. Masters don't tell their students everything.
Because students who are not ready to use certain powers cannot be trusted with them and thus become a danger for their fellow students and their master.
So some secrets die in the grave.

That is if these mystical magical deadly skills ever existed in the first place. Something tells me the truth was a lot different.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

This is all I am going to say about Shao-lin-Do. It's a compound word that begins with a B and ends in a T. The word is 8 letters long. Can you guess what word it is boys and girls? Hint: the 2 of the two words rhymes with "Hit".

I knew you could guess it boys and girls...:)

I was talking to this guy in a Thai restaurant about 3 months ago in the bar area. I order my second beer(Tsing-Tao--good stuff) and the guy sits down. We start talking about assorted odds and ends about the world,etc.

Somehow we get on the subject of Martial arts. He starts telling me "Well the Shao-lin system has 900 styles..the grandmaster of our system Sin Kwang The learned all 900" :eek::eek::eek::eek::

I say "Well..I think you've been misinformed..shaolin is a PLACE..not a style";)

Him: "I beg to differ. Sin Kwang The learned all 900 styles. He should know..he told us so":rolleyes:

Me: " A style is composed of forms. Forms are composed of patterns. Patterns are composed of individual moves. Are you saying he learned 900 forms"?

Him: "He learned the whole SHAO-LIN system"

Me: reiterating what I last said. Then I add: "To give you an example. There is a style known as Choy Li Fut. It has in some lineages..close to 200 forms. Even if each of the 900 styles you claim that Sin Kwang The learned only had 2 forms per style..that would be 1800 forms to learn. If there were a standard number of 10 forms per style that would be 9,000 forms. Unless he started studying at birth and lived to 400 years old and practiced all of those 400 years..learning even 1800 forms much less 9,000 is impossible." :p

Him: "If you don't believe me you can schedule a consultation. Our head instructor will be happy to explain it to you"

Me: "So..who do you think is going to win the next Presidential election"? :rolleyes:

[BlueTravesty]

I've said many times that if someone with good form from SD posted vids on this forum they would not receive a fair review. Too many knee jerk "oh it's SD it sucks" reactions. It's too bad that most in SD who have great form totally do not care about this discussion. I'd post vids of myself, but my form would suck even if it wasn't adapted to suit my CP. :D

Then the trick is to choose someone to represent your style, post a vid, and DON'T TELL ANYONE IT'S SHAOLIN DO. And wear some non-gi form of clothing. T shirt and sweats is just fine for any sort of extra-curricular martial art practice. That way, if it's one of these "excellent" SD performances that looks soooo much better than all these chumps (who've been practicing mantis and little else for the entirety of their involvement in martial arts ) we won't be able to tell the difference.
...
Right?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Blue,

Do I detect a looking down your nose stance at people who study mantis?(as I do?)..and I might add..Mantis is not originally part of Shaolin..the actual shaolin temple..not SD...

[Shaolin Wookie]

No, the trick is to actually say: Yes, this is Shaolin-Do.

Don't deny. Embrace.:D

It doesn't matter whether the people in the vids are experienced or not. If they do sparring tech 1, and do it crappy, it's still sparring tech 1 of Shaolin-Do.

Their skill doesn't make it more or less Shaolin-Do.

If we have two videos, one of a form performed beautifully, and one of it performed crappily, it's still the same material.

IF we have two videos, one where the practitioner understands everything he's doing and moves fluidly with purpose, and one where the practitioner just snaps technique, bends his back, and violates training principles to get shoddily-enforced power, it's still the same material. (I had this happen recently: Someone far better than I martially and of much higher rank, who knows the techs and apps, still showed me how to get snap in a form, but violated some defense principles I don't in my forms, and I wasn't sure how to take it, b/c the Master of the school drilled me in those principles to get me out of cheating for snap, and the MAster's make faaaaar more sense).

But if Shaolin-Do produces only crappy videos, it would lead people to believe that nobody understands anything they're doing, and move choppily without directed purpose.

If any Shaolin Do practitioners backbite other SD vids, it's really a ****ty thing to do. If they don't post vids of themselves, yet insist on the importance of showcasing talent, which it seems some of the SD practitioners here do, and are confident of their understanding of the forms, and the content of them, what's the roadblock?

It's a MA forum, not Showtime at the Apollo. Bruce posted a vid (I didn't watch it, yet). He didn't get eviscerated. Sure, some A-hole might start trolling, but who cares? Bruce seems like a down-to-earth guy, and big enough to enforce for himself:cool:. I'm sure he wouldn't get miffed.

Honestly, if I had a digital cam, I wouldn't really care whether one person here thought I sucked. I'm demonstrating my knowledge of something. If I don't know it, then I don't know it. If I do it crappy, I do it crappy. But if I know one movement in a form, or one sequence, and I know it well, and I have fantastic purpose in that sequence, then props to me. PErhaps one day I might have it for the entire form, or all 900:p:D......just kiddin'....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Seriously.....when martial artists get together, they can be worse than a sewing circle.

And when they're on the internet, they can be as foppish as American Idol.

[Chain Whip]

most of the moves were illogical: for example, there is no range changing in the form at all: a major component of 2-person sets is to get both practitioners to learn how to use their weapon in a range that is inherently less advantageous (e.g. - spears at short range, swords at long range), and also how to get themselves out of that and back into the optimal range;

I hate to say this - but cjurakpt is right. The problem is how poorly is was taught/performed. All of the traits outlined DO exist in that form - just not in that rendition. This form is one of those SD forms that can be found move for move in book. ---Please save the tired arguements about if it can be found in book then GM The' must have got it from the book. Because the other fun arguement is if it can't be found in a book then it isn't traditional CMA and either GM The' made it up or it is an Indonsian form.

This form was originally taught move for move - exactly as it is displayed in "New Approach - Chinese Kung-Fu Training Methods - A Complete Course Book One" Published in Hong Kong in 1984. Written by Xi Yuntai, Zhang Wenguang, Xia Bohua, Wen Jingming and Cai Longyun - whoever they might be.

However, I suspect that if some equally untalented non- shaolin-do guys went to Hong Kong and learned the same form from one of the authors of the book and then posted an equally poor performance on YouTube it would be assessed differently. Probably it would be called a really nice form done at an acceptable level.

I have seen this form done by much faster, much more advanced, much more athletic shaolin-do guys - and it looks pretty impressive. - and no I do not have any video of a better performance.

[ninja matt]

How many break away schools do you guys have?

[BentMonk]

Don't use lame excuses, BM. You're tougher than that.

I didn't realize when I typed it how whinny my post sounded. Still, I do think there is a bit of a double standard when it comes to critiquing forms where SD is concerned. I've decided that adapted or not, I'm going to post myself on here soon. The flames will be glorious. :D Also, props to SDIC for posting himself doing Tai Chi. IMO he looks as good if not better than any other Tai Chi clip I've seen posted on here. I also notice that no one had anything to say about his clip. What gives?

[MasterKiller]

What gives?

Not many pajama-wearing hippies in the Shaolin forum. Take it to Emptyflower and see what they have to say....

[Chain Whip]

So, are you implying that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

[MasterKiller]

So, are you implying that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

Are you insinuating that I implied that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

[brucereiter]

Are you insinuating that I implied that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

lol i saw the dead once but i am more of a metal head but i do like bob marley .... .... lol ...

bruce

[brucereiter]

Not many pajama-wearing hippies in the Shaolin forum. Take it to Emptyflower and see what they have to say....

my point in showing tai chi chuan is it is part of shaolin do and it happens to be what i study for about 10 years. i have not learned any of the external styles of shaolin do.

there are many threads and post about and by me on emptyflower. i think i am generally respected there for my skills and ability to apply what i have learned from our system, i will say "they" do not like my hsing i very much but i am fine with that and i would agree with many of the observations they have had about my understanding and performance of hsingi.

here is some push hand / application practice ...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9L9atX7yAFs

best,

bruce

[Chain Whip]

Are you insinuating that I implied that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

Bruce is really not a hippie - and you will have to ask his wife about the pajama thing.

[BentMonk]

lol i saw the dead once but i am more of a metal head but i do like bob marley .... .... lol ...

bruce

I didn't get to see the Dead. I did go to Woodstock '99. Marley is awesome. BTW, what's wrong with pajama wearing hippies? They make great sparring partners. :D

[BlueTravesty]

Blue,

Do I detect a looking down your nose stance at people who study mantis?(as I do?)..and I might add..Mantis is not originally part of Shaolin..the actual shaolin temple..not SD...

Actually, no. As far as the "chumps" thing, I was actually being sarcastic. Mostly due to this interesting sentiment that a SD mantis practitioner would be viewed as less adept than a student of, say, Seven Star Mantis ONLY BECAUSE they are from SD (IE "knee-jerk anti-SD reaction") Personally, if they are viewed as less, I'd say it's because their curriculum doesn't allow them to reach the proficiency of someone who specializes in Mantis. Praying Mantis is a great style, and while I have never had the opportunity to practice it, it seems like a formidable style. I apologize, and did not mean any disrespect.

In addition to the slight sarcasm, I was proposing a solution to the supposed "knee-jerk anti-shaolin-do" sentiment. If a practitioner doesn't wear a gi, and doesn't identify him/herself as Shaolin-do, this would effectively take such a reaction out of the equation. It wouldn't, as Shaolin Wookie said make it any less SD, but it would keep this "unfair" attitude from being part of the equation.

And who knows? If they're really good, they might get someone to say "wow, I've been studying X style all my life, and this is awesome!" At which point the incognito SD practitioner could be all like "JOKES ON YOU, I LEARNED IT FROM SD ROFFLECOPTER LOLLERSKATES!"

But hey, if there is a video that some SD'er wants to post to show us all how the "real" thing looks, then by all means, do so. Just post a thread that says something like "Found an interesting Mantis/BaGua/Tiger Crane Video"

Again, no disrespect was meant toward you, Erasmus. And really, none was meant toward SD itself... I know if I trained in a multitude of HIGHLY DISPARATE FORMS AND STYLES, each with theories, concepts and strategies that require years of study individually, my form would have no hope of looking as good or being as technically sound as someone who specialized in that style. That's just how it goes. MMAists aren't insulted when someone tells them their hands aren't as good as Boxers, or they can't do the flying knee as well as Muay Thai people. They just shrug and keep cross-training.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

No problem...no offense taken..

As far as knee jerk reaction towards SD..while I admit that them wearing karate Gis makes it harder to giggle and take them seriously, and this guy Sin Kwang The claims that the guy with the wolf face was at one time "grandmaster of the S. Temple"(I wonder what the current S.T. has to say about this)..I really couldn't care less about what they wear. What I have an issue with is their self-aggrandizing statements.

900 styles? It would be d-man near impossible to learn 900 FORMS much less 900 styles.

One could are there are 900(or perhaps more) styles of Kung fu if you consolidate Shaolin, Wu-Tang and E-Mei temples(I'm speaking about the written ones..not "lost" systems)..but to say there are 900 styles in one? And that it's posisble to learn all of them?

That's when I must say bullsh-t!!!;)

[Chain Whip]

It is supposed to be 900 forms, not styles. Maybe 200 have been taught to date. Depending on how you count them. There are people currently in Shaolin-Do that can actually do over 100 forms. Not all schools wear the gis, Tennessee and Georgia schools wear frog button uniforms. Not that clothes really matter. GM The' does not claim to be able to actually do 900 forms at any time. It is more like he at one time saw the forms and practiced them for a short while. Now he has notes for a lot of forms and prepares the form off the notes when he is getting ready to teach it.

As to the Southern Temple.......GM The' has been to both of the current Southern Temples (rumor has it that a third is in the works) No fights broke out when he got there. At the government run "temple" in Putian they brought the same wushu coach that had been at the Northern Temple for awhile. They are a very nice northern style wu shu school. I'm pretty sure they have nothing to say considering they don't even teach kung-fu.

The Quanzhou Temple that was built by a Japanese group actually does Southern style kung-fu - including sai and tonfa :). Don't know what the group from Japan thinks about a guy from Indonesia claiming Southern Temple lineage, but at least they do kung-fu

[Baqualin]

It is supposed to be 900 forms, not styles. Maybe 200 have been taught to date. Depending on how you count them. There are people currently in Shaolin-Do that can actually do over 100 forms. Not all schools wear the gis, Tennessee and Georgia schools wear frog button uniforms. Not that clothes really matter. GM The' does not claim to be able to actually do 900 forms at any time. It is more like he at one time saw the forms and practiced them for a short while. Now he has notes for a lot of forms and prepares the form off the notes when he is getting ready to teach it.

As to the Southern Temple.......GM The' has been to both of the current Southern Temples (rumor has it that a third is in the works) No fights broke out when he got there. At the government run "temple" in Putian they brought the same wushu coach that had been at the Northern Temple for awhile. They are a very nice northern style wu shu school. I'm pretty sure they have nothing to say considering they don't even teach kung-fu.

The Quanzhou Temple that was built by a Japanese group actually does Southern style kung-fu - including sai and tonfa :). Don't know what the group from Japan thinks about a guy from Indonesia claiming Southern Temple lineage, but at least they do kung-fu

Around 400 forms to date...but only to higher level masters.
BQ

[synack]

Since my posting abilities are now in effect. Thanks Gene!

I'll use this opportunity to introduce myself. I take Shao-lin Tao at one of the Atlanta Schools and like it so far. Only been in a few weeks.

And yes, we do wear frog button uniforms (really doesn't matter to me though).

So hello! :cool:

[MasterKiller]

I take Shao-lin Tao


You guys call it that now?

[synack]

I'm not sure when the Atlanta schools were called Shao-Lin Tao. I remember seeing the school some years ago and it was Shao-Lin Tao then.

I really can't say for sure.

It looks like the Atlanta schools are dropping (or possibly never had) all of the Japanese influences. I haven't seen any reference to "Kata" either.

Maybe someone with more experience with the school can elaborate?

[Lamassu]

I never was too crazy about the Japanese trappings within Shaolin Do, and personally would rather we lose the japanese gi's and went with comfortable workout clothes, and also drop the 'Do' and replace it with 'Tao' or better still, just drop the word altogether.

The only purpose I can see with maintaining the Japanese gi and belt system is so the beginner student can mark his progress, but I think everyone would find it easier to take kung fu classes in sweats or in a t-shirt and gi pants. No one walks around wearing a gi anyway ...at least I don't. ;)

[synack]

You mean you don't walk around your neighborhood wearing a gi and challenging your neighbors to a fight to the death?

Must be an Atlanta thing then. *shrug*

[Ngfamilymember]

Not trying to knock anyone here, just stating a simple, logical question.

HOW DO THE PRACTIONERS OF SAY 100-400 FORMS HAVE TIME TO DEVELOP THE SKILLS NECESSARY TO CARRY OVER INTO A FIGHT?

I've always heard that the less you know the more you know. If someone takes 1-3 forms, work on those soley for the rest of his/her life and develop the side skills to give him/her the ability to shatter bone, take abuse, footwork, and speed. What else would they need. You can learn a thousand techniques and practise them once or twice a day doing forms, or you can learn a few forms, work on doing the techniques a hundred times a day /split your time inhalf and come out as a fighter who could call upon what he/she practised the most to win the fight. (AT least this is all in my opinion)

Thanks.

[synack]

I don't have the answer to that question, but I can tell you what I plan to do. I plan on learning what I need to learn to advance at the school.

Then in my practice time at home. I will be only working on what I find useful and discarding the rest.

I personally don't believe any rational person joins up thinking they will master 100-400 forms (or even 900 :rolleyes:) I think the huge amount of forms is more a selling point (just my opinion) for the school.

[Ngfamilymember]

Yeah, that would be a way of putting some major money into the pockets.

Thanks.

[djcaldwell]

Not trying to knock anyone here, just stating a simple, logical question.

HOW DO THE PRACTIONERS OF SAY 100-400 FORMS HAVE TIME TO DEVELOP THE SKILLS NECESSARY TO CARRY OVER INTO A FIGHT?

I've always heard that the less you know the more you know. If someone takes 1-3 forms, work on those soley for the rest of his/her life and develop the side skills to give him/her the ability to shatter bone, take abuse, footwork, and speed. What else would they need. You can learn a thousand techniques and practise them once or twice a day doing forms, or you can learn a few forms, work on doing the techniques a hundred times a day /split your time inhalf and come out as a fighter who could call upon what he/she practised the most to win the fight. (AT least this is all in my opinion)

Thanks.


I don't know...just feel like beating a dead horse.

FORMS ALONE DO NOT EQUAL GOOD FIGHTING ABILITY.

FORMS by any means do not equal bone shatering ability.

If the two in the posting exchange above are just starting out - do yourselves a favor and get that out of your head now. Forms IMO do serve a purpose and I enjoy them a great deal. BUT they are not formulas for super bone breaking fighters.

[tattooedmonk]

I don't know...just feel like beating a dead horse.

FORMS ALONE DO NOT EQUAL GOOD FIGHTING ABILITY.

FORMS by any means do not equal bone shatering ability.

If the two in the posting exchange above are just starting out - do yourselves a favor and get that out of your head now. Forms IMO do serve a purpose and I enjoy them a great deal. BUT they are not formulas for super bone breaking fighters.Doing forms alone will only do certain things for you , It will not make you a better fighter, however, that is not what forms training is all about.

Everyone should know by now that you take parts of the forms and drill the applications of the technique through different ranges of motion to find the applications of the techniques found hidden within the forms.

If anyone ever believed that just doing forms ( the movements ) without utilizing the practical, applicable techniques, and drilling them, then they are just stupid and or ignorant.

[tattooedmonk]

Not trying to knock anyone here, just stating a simple, logical question.

HOW DO THE PRACTIONERS OF SAY 100-400 FORMS HAVE TIME TO DEVELOP THE SKILLS NECESSARY TO CARRY OVER INTO A FIGHT?

I've always heard that the less you know the more you know. If someone takes 1-3 forms, work on those soley for the rest of his/her life and develop the side skills to give him/her the ability to shatter bone, take abuse, footwork, and speed. What else would they need. You can learn a thousand techniques and practise them once or twice a day doing forms, or you can learn a few forms, work on doing the techniques a hundred times a day /split your time inhalf and come out as a fighter who could call upon what he/she practised the most to win the fight. (AT least this is all in my opinion)

Thanks.Many of the styles have the same tools and techniques visable and hidden within the forms ,they are just different combinations, in different order to give the martial artist different ideas and/ or combinations to choose from.

They are just a catalog of techniques.

There are only so many ways you can punch , kick, block , grab, twist, etc. the body.

Having a large amount of forms from many different styles just gives you more ideas on how to apply your tools and techniques.

This is part of all the arts.

Every form is like a book from a diffrent master of a style and a different way to tell similar stories.

[djcaldwell]

Doing forms alone will only do certain things for you , It will not make you a better fighter, however, that is not what forms training is all about.

Everyone should know by now that you take parts of the forms and drill the applications of the technique through different ranges of motion to find the applications of the techniques found hidden within the forms.

If anyone ever believed that just doing forms ( the movements ) without utilizing the practical, applicable techniques, and drilling them, then they are just stupid and or ignorant.

Since it's a dead horse discussion not everyone agrees or they may just be new like the two above may be which is why I started beating that horse again.

So before they go into training thinking that they are going to be smashing peoples bones once they master that secret bone smashing form...thought I'd throw it out there again.

[tattooedmonk]

Since it's a dead horse discussion not everyone agrees or they may just be new like the two above may be which is why I started beating that horse again.

So before they go into training thinking that they are going to be smashing peoples bones once they master that secret bone smashing form...thought I'd throw it out there again.I understand why you are saying this. I was just adding to it.

[Judge Pen]

Not trying to knock anyone here, just stating a simple, logical question.

HOW DO THE PRACTIONERS OF SAY 100-400 FORMS HAVE TIME TO DEVELOP THE SKILLS NECESSARY TO CARRY OVER INTO A FIGHT?

I've always heard that the less you know the more you know. If someone takes 1-3 forms, work on those soley for the rest of his/her life and develop the side skills to give him/her the ability to shatter bone, take abuse, footwork, and speed. What else would they need. You can learn a thousand techniques and practise them once or twice a day doing forms, or you can learn a few forms, work on doing the techniques a hundred times a day /split your time inhalf and come out as a fighter who could call upon what he/she practised the most to win the fight. (AT least this is all in my opinion)

Thanks.


How many forms does the Ng family teach? Back in the day, was shown 5 or 6 of 'em and I was told that there were many more by a friend who left SD for Ng.

[Judge Pen]

You guys call it that now?

They've called it that for at least 18 years I think (the time I've been around).

[synack]

Yikes! :eek: I never thought a form would make me a super fighter. What I meant was that I'll take what I think is useful (punches, kicks, blocks) and discard the stuff I don't find useful. For instance, the side thrust kicks and other "fancy" stuff.

[djcaldwell]

Yikes! :eek: I never thought a form would make me a super fighter. What I meant was that I'll take what I think is useful (punches, kicks, blocks) and discard the stuff I don't find useful. For instance, the side thrust kicks and other "fancy" stuff.

Please explain "side thrust kick" as I don't understand what's fancy or unusual about a side kick?

[WhiteEarp]

That is if these mystical magical deadly skills ever existed in the first place. Something tells me the truth was a lot different.

Well i have seen some incredible feats from certain masters in differing styles.
I'm more of a "Thomas" kind of guy(in the biblical sence) i do not believe everything until i actually have seen evidence to support certain claims.
But still most of the "mystical deadly skills" is just plain old train for 40 years day in day out. Nothing mystical about it really. They just worked their ass off for 40 years to do incredible things with their body.;)
And then again, mystical or not, i still have a huge respect for it!

[synack]

Please explain "side thrust kick" as I don't understand what's fancy or unusual about a side kick?

You pretty much step behind your other leg to start the kick. Not something I would do in a fight.

[Judge Pen]

You pretty much step behind your other leg to start the kick. Not something I would do in a fight.

Not necessarily. "Side Thrust Kick" is a side kick, plain and simple. We focus on the heel as the point of impact whic differs from some of the side kicks that strike with the blade of the foot. Also the mechanism of throwing the side thrust kick is to pull your knee across your body before thrusting the kick out. This maximizes the power one can put behind the kick as well as the range. The downside is that the it slows the kick down and it can get over-extended so you need to use it wisely and open the door to the technique first.

What synack is talking about, I'm assuming (always dangerous), is certain sparring techniques (and a couple of basic forms) that have a side thrust kcik follwoing a little skip step etc. Its a foundation to differnt footwork that one can use, but, as I think synack is alluding too, could be a huge telegraph to an experienced fighter.

[Lamassu]

You pretty much step behind your other leg to start the kick. Not something I would do in a fight.

Have you just started training in Shao-lin Tao? I'm only asking because I use that 'side thrust kick', as you call it, fairly often when I spar. The stepping is to close the distance between you and your opponent. That's it. Nothing fancy about it, and the reason for stepping behind the leg is to retain your balance as well as set your kicking leg for more power. I suggest you try this type of kick on an impact bag, and compare it to a simple front kick. You'll find you have more power behind the side kick because you put both of your hips into it.

There is some pretty fancy moves in Shao-lin Tao kung fu, but they're in the more advance belt levels, and a good teacher will teach you at least some of the practical applications to them. I suggest you read "Book of Five Rings" by Miyamoto Musashi, to learn a proper fighter's mentality. This book helped me out a lot to discern when in a fight to use a particular technique to obtain a certain result and when not to. One thing I think every martial artist can agree on, is when you're in a fight, don't lose your cool and think with your head not with your fists.

Now, I only know a little over 30 forms and half of them are quick and simple, but I do practice them everyday, and I'm constantly thinking about new, effective and practical ways to excecute various techniques.

One final thing to ponder concerning the effective use of your 'side thrust kick'. The kick is designed for power, not quickness and a fight is like playing chess, in order to get the upper hand on your opponent you trap him from a series of moves and excecute. When you see the opening, try a 'side thrust kick' to your opponent's bladder (just below the belt, where your opponents fly zipper is). You might be suprised at how effective that kick can be.

[synack]

Yes I've just started training with this school. I have some experience in boxing though. (father started to teach me boxing very young)

I tend not to like anything that I think is telegraphed. Just too risky. Being a smaller guy.

I know the kick is for power but I have yet to see a moment for me to use it. But I do enjoy most of the material and will stay with the school for a while.

[Judge Pen]

Yes I've just started training with this school. I have some experience in boxing though. (father started to teach me boxing very young)

I tend not to like anything that I think is telegraphed. Just too risky. Being a smaller guy.

I know the kick is for power but I have yet to see a moment for me to use it. But I do enjoy most of the material and will stay with the school for a while.

If you have a boxing background, then you'll have to oppotuntiy to create the perfect time to use it. I'm assuming that you have fast hands and can string together combos (again assuming is always dangerous). Work the head and wait for the opportunity where the elbows flair out slightly. The door is open for a good side kick. Even good fighters will flair their elbows out slightly if they respect the techniques you are thowing at their head. Maybe its because I'm older and slower (so I rely less on hook kicks and roundhouses and more on side kicks and front thrust kicks) but I see openings for a solid low side kick more than any other foot technique to the torso or head of an opponent.

You don't have to telegraph the side kick. I know plenty of people that have excellent side-kicks that you won't see coming.

[Lamassu]

Yes I've just started training with this school. I have some experience in boxing though. (father started to teach me boxing very young)

I tend not to like anything that I think is telegraphed. Just too risky. Being a smaller guy.

I know the kick is for power but I have yet to see a moment for me to use it. But I do enjoy most of the material and will stay with the school for a while.

The boxing training will be very helpful in your sparring, and one thing you have to realize about sparring, it's not a fight, it's a teaching element so you can implement what you learn when you fight. It's going to seem awkward to use some of the techniques your learning at first, but the more you try to put them in your sparring, the more familiar they'll be. A lot of students don't realize that they can set the tempo of the sparring session with their partner. There's no trophy to be won and no bragging rights to be gained. At the start of the match, tell your sparring partner that you're going to try some new techniques you learned and to slow the pace down a bit. If you're partner is of a higher belt level, he'll understand and can even give you some pointers about successfully using the techniques in question.

[Scott R. Brown]

In my younger days I used the side thrust kick very effectively in sparring, but first you must develop a fast kick with good technique.

You must find a way to create an opening. Anything that will get the opponent to raise their arm or arms (depending upon their stance). My favorite techniques to open the target is to strike or feint to the head. If the opponent raises an arm to cover their head, it will open them up. If you can get them to back peddle at the same time, that helps too. Smart opponents require more finesse and creative means to get them to open up. Obviously you wouldn't try the kick if you do not have the proper opening or skill level to pull it off.

Another technique I liked was a back fist to the head followed by a front leg roundhouse kick followed by a spinning side kick. Once the opponent figures out my pattern I would alter my method. If they just backed out of the way then I would retreat drawing them into what appeared to be my vulnerability. This was just a ploy to draw them close enough for a back kick.

The key is to experiment to see what will work. If you can't go over the wall go around it, go under it, etc. Establish a pattern for your opponent to figure out. When they automatically respond to your pattern they create an opening/vulnerability somewhere else. When you have conditioned them to respond to your pattern, change the pattern and attack the vulnerability your pattern has created in them.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Chainwhip,

"It is supposed to be 900 forms, not styles."

Chainwhip..NO STYLE has 900 forms!! Just because it is 900 forms and not styles means little. Chan family lineage Choy Li Fut kung fu has perhaps 200 forms and "arguably probably noone knows all 200. But 900? No. There would not be enough time in one lifetime go learn all 900. There are just not that many years to live. I ""don't buy it. And if SD were real..the offical Shaolin temples have never issued a statement about it. There is not a STYLE called Shaolin..there are places called Shaolin. Styles would be things such as Hung Ga, Wing Chun, CHoy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, Praying Mantis, Monkey,etc.
All of these are styles which contain forms. And I reckon no style contains 900 forms.


"Not all schools wear the gis, Tennessee and Georgia schools wear frog button uniforms. Not that clothes really matter."

In theory that is true..but you can generally determine if a style of kung fu is legit by adherence to tradition. You don' go to schools of Tae Kwon Do and see them wearing Aikido uniforms with those big inflated bottom pants that fan out and yet claim "Yeah..we're Tae Kwon Do"



"GM The'"

The Shaolin temple does not claim to have a sole grandmaster. I don't care if it is "Grandmaster" The or The guy with the wolf man face. If you were to go to either Shaolin temple today and ask them to list a run down of the past "Grandmasters of the S. Temple" they'd look at you like you ate your own head. There are grandmastgers of styles..not temples. You are confusing the title grandmaster with that of the Head Abbott.



. "It is more like he at one time saw the forms and practiced them for a short while. "Now he has notes for a lot of forms and prepares the form off the notes when he is getting ready to teach it."

Another red flag. A professional teacher teaches forms he LEARNED in PERSON by his sifu...not read a series of scripts and then go and "wing it".

"As to the Southern Temple.......GM The' has been to both of the current Southern Temples (rumor has it that a third is in the works)" .

And your point is? So he went there...:rolleyes:



"No fights broke out when he got there."

Is this something I should be impressed by? Does this imply as opposed to all the other times when grandmasters of other various kung fu styles have gone To Shaolin and riots broke out? LOL :eek:

The temple has embraced Buddhism(read: pacifists)..do you think that ordinarily..the monks would pick fights with visitors?



"At the government run "temple" in Putian they brought the same wushu coach that had been at the Northern Temple for awhile. They are a very nice northern style wu shu school. I'm pretty sure they have nothing to say considering they don't even teach kung-fu."

I'll bet even wu-shu is closer to kung fu than what the SD practices. "DO" is a Japanese/Korean word.

"The Quanzhou Temple that was built by a Japanese group actually does Southern style kung-fu - including sai and tonfa ."

What group? Name them. Tonfa is not a kung fu weapon..it's Japanese. More proof you are confused.

[Judge Pen]

I'll bet even wu-shu is closer to kung fu than what the SD practices. "DO" is a Japanese/Korean word.


Really? As in Jeet Kune Do? Bruce Lee was either Korean or Japanese? Interesting....

Or maybe its a romanization of a chinese term meaning "the way". As we are tranlating chinese terms into english then the spelling of tao, dao or do seems really silly imo.

[MasterKiller]

Really? As in Jeet Kune Do? Bruce Lee was either Korean or Japanese? Interesting....

Or maybe its a romanization of a chinese term meaning "the way". As we are tranlating chinese terms into english then the spelling of tao, dao or do seems really silly imo.

Well, do you pronounce it "shaolin-doh" or "shaolin-dow"?

I'm pretty sure "Doh" is the cantonese pronounciation, right? So why not Sil Lum Do? That would at least tie in with the "southern temple" lineage.

[Judge Pen]

Well, do you pronounce it "shaolin-doh" or "shaolin-dow"?

I'm pretty sure "Doh" is the cantonese pronounciation, right? So why not Sil Lum Do? That would at least tie in with the "southern temple" lineage.

its pronounced "doh" I couldn't tell you what dilect it's supposed to be. Si Lum would be more correct with regard to the southern lineage.

[Chain Whip]

Hey Erasmus Mingatt - It appears that terminology, history and clothing mean much more to you than the body mechanics.


Chainwhip..NO STYLE has 900 forms!!

The "system" has many "styles" available - some styles have many forms, some have very few. There is supposed to be 900 forms of various styles within the system. Not that it matters to me whether it is 400 or 900 or whatever. It just means there is more to learn than I can possibly ever absorb.


you can generally determine if a style of kung fu is legit by adherence to tradition

I think you are saying frog button uniforms make a school traditional and probably legit. Pretty naive thinking. In Shaolin-Do (Tao) the tradition is karate gis - the Georgia and Tennessee schools are being non-traditional within their own art by wearing frog buttons. It does seem that it doesn't change anyone's skill level either way.



There are grandmastgers of styles..not temples. You are confusing the title grandmaster with that of the Head Abbott.

I did?? Where did I say "Grandmaster of Temple...."


LEARNED in PERSON by his sifu...not read a series of scripts and then go and "wing it".

Should have been more clear for your benefit. When I said "he at one time saw the forms and practiced them for a short while" I should have said "he at one time LEARNED in PERSON from his sifu the forms and practiced them for a short while"


"As to the Southern Temple.......GM The' has been to both of the current Southern Temples (rumor has it that a third is in the works)" .

And your point is? So he went there...


"No fights broke out when he got there."

Is this something I should be impressed by? Does this imply as opposed to all the other times when grandmasters of other various kung fu styles have gone To Shaolin and riots broke out? LOL

Just saying he went there and visited with the Head Abbott and the wu-shu coaches. They were kind and respectful towards each other. Anyone can go and be treated well. The two government run temples are big money makers so they are nice to just about everyone from America.


The temple has embraced Buddhism(read: pacifists)..:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: - you obviously have not been to either temple. What they have embraced is capitalism (read: suck money out of naive Americans)


I'll bet even wu-shu is closer to kung fu than what the SD practices. "DO" is a Japanese/Korean word.

Again with spelling being so important.............:rolleyes: The coaches at the Northern Temple would disagree with you. They comment that the SD material is clearly traditional CMA.


What group? Name them.

Why don't you fly over and go to the Quanzhou Temple and ask for those details?



Tonfa is not a kung fu weapon..it's Japanese. More proof you are confused.

Take a picture of their weapon rack while you are there (the one with sai and tonfa on it)

[MasterKiller]

They comment that the SD material is clearly traditional CMA.

You were there when they said this, I suppose?

[The Xia]

Tonfa is not a kung fu weapon..it's Japanese. More proof you are confused.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO0GBnXjyPU

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO0GBnXjyPU

Interesting find. Thing is, I didn't think that SD taught Tonfa. We have an iron crutch form but I hadn't heard anything about Tonfa before.

[Lamassu]

"Round 348 of the same old tired song and dance!!!"

Honestly people, don't you get tired of bickering over the same old cr@p over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?

"Is Shaolin Do 'Shaolin' or not?"

"NO ONE could EVER learn 900 forms!"

"Grandmaster The is a charlatan out to take your money!"

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!

Here, let me answer the first one for you:
Shaolin Do has Crane, Tiger, Snake, Mantis, Hua Fist, and other styles that were traditionally taught at the Shaolin Temples and as Erasmus so lovingly pointed out: 'Shaolin' isn't a STYLE, it's a couple of MONASTARIES. Since Shaolin Do isn't taught by a bunch of monks who recently immigrated from the Shaolin temples, then no, Shaolin Do ISN'T affiliated with them, but that doesn't mean that the material taught in Shaolin Do didn't originate from there. Remember, the monks were scattered to the four winds after their temples were destroyed and you can't honestly assume that these monks were so grief stricken from their lost that they NEVER practiced their kung fu and NEVER taught it to people afterwards.

The guy who taught our lineage, was Grandmaster Su Kong Taijinn. He was afflicted with hypertrichosis, so you can understand if he wasn't in the limelight at the Temples back in the day. :eek:

for the second question:
900 forms CAN be learned by a single individual if all he had was kung fu. Say, maybe, he was socially ostracised because of a visually appalling condition and couldn't do all the cool things monks do, like smoke pot, chase after girls and seek enlightenment.

and the final question:
OF COURSE GRANDMASTER THE WANT'S OUR MONEY!!! ALL MARTIAL ART MASTERS WANT YOUR MONEY; IT'S CALLED CAPITALISM! WELCOME TO AMERICA!!!

Can we please get back to serious discussions now? :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

for the second question:
900 forms CAN be learned by a single individual if all he had was kung fu. Say, maybe, he was socially ostracised because of a visually appalling condition and couldn't do all the cool things monks do, like smoke pot, chase after girls and seek enlightenment.

Yeah, but who could swim the fastest with their pecs? Sin or Su Kong?

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, but who could swim the fastest with their pecs? Sin or Su Kong?

Duh, all that extra bodyhair would produce too much drag.

[Chain Whip]

Originally Posted by Chain Whip
They comment that the SD material is clearly traditional CMA.



You were there when they said this, I suppose?

Yes I was.

[djcaldwell]

Yes I was.

Did you hand them the payoff or just witness it?

[MasterKiller]

Yes I was.

Was this the same trip when the SD'ers performed a 2 hour lackluster demo?

[Lamassu]

Yeah, but who could swim the fastest with their pecs? Sin or Su Kong?

Honestly, I couldn't tell you. I never heard that claim before I came across this kung fu forum. None of my Sifu's ever told me that Sin The can swim with his pecs, and I never heard him say that he could during the few times I spoke with him. Who told you he could?

Technically though, he CAN swim with his pecs and so can I...so can you for that matter. They are attached to your arms after all. :p

[tattooedmonk]

Interesting find. Thing is, I didn't think that SD taught Tonfa. We have an iron crutch form but I hadn't heard anything about Tonfa before.
Yep ! Master Hiang taught one to the Soards . It is taught in the CSCs

[Chain Whip]

Was this the same trip when the SD'ers performed a 2 hour lackluster demo?

Don't think so. Our demos look like a bunch of CPAs, computer programmers and other plain folk who practice when they can and are no where near the athletes that they have in the big wushu schools. So most of the performances would probably be "lackluster" There are always one or two people worth watching.

Even with the general "lackluster" abilities of the average student it seems the best wushu coaches in China can still recognize truly traditional CMA. Even if the performers aren't wearing frog buttons. I can safely say I have never seen anyone perform in a frog button uniform in China - except for the very non-martial Tai Chi guys.

[Lamassu]

Tai Chi is martial.

[Chain Whip]

Tai Chi is martial.

No kidding. I didn't say it wasn't. I just said the very "non-martial Tai Chi guys" who comprise the vast majority of people doing Tai Chi.

I'm in Atlanta. I think you may know Bruce, who is a Tai Chi guy and very martial and a general bad ass. If you are doing Tai Chi under Senior Master Grooms you are doing it as a martial art.

[Leto]

Yep ! Master Hiang taught one to the Soards . It is taught in the CSCs

And he also taught them shi hou yi shou, stone monkey? and I will also guess eagle claw, ying jow na? I wonder if this is a reason why these forms aren't part of the "regular" testing curriculum, yet are taught at all the schools. (though it is only once every four years)
is anything else from master Hiang?

On another note, I heard CSC released a new training manual, with the curriculum for 6th to 7th degree black. I was told the forms are mostly mantis system, all the ones from the festivals, and some two person sets. I wonder if this is similar to what master The graded the Soards with, or if they are just deciding it now that there are enough sixth blacks that want to know what to do next.

[xcakid]

Well dang!! I thought for sure this thread would never reach pass 350pgs.

OK how bout 375pgs.?

[Lamassu]

Well dang!! I thought for sure this thread would never reach pass 350pgs.

OK how bout 375pgs.?

You don't think longterm xcakid, I'm focusing on the 1000 pgs. mark! :D

[Baqualin]

on and on and on and on and on and on............................................:eek :
BQ

[Chain Whip]

I hate the fact that so many Shaolin-Do people are posting on a thread titled "Is Shaolin-Do for real?" How about starting a new thread with a better name that we can all share constructive thoughts and interesting stories. It won't keep out the Shaolin-Do bashers - but at least they would have to post on a thread called "Why I love Shaolin-Do" -or something like that.

[MasterKiller]

I hate the fact that so many Shaolin-Do people are posting on a thread titled "Is Shaolin-Do for real?" How about starting a new thread with a better name that we can all share constructive thoughts and interesting stories. It won't keep out the Shaolin-Do bashers - but at least they would have to post on a thread called "Why I love Shaolin-Do" -or something like that.

I recommend putting it in the ORA forum.

[Lamassu]

I recommend putting it in the ORA forum.

You are the most awesomest person in the whole wide world! :D BTW, you never did answer my question. Who told you GM The claimed he could swim using only his pectoral muscles? :confused:

[MasterKiller]

You are the most awesomest person in the whole wide world! :D BTW, you never did answer my question. Who told you GM The claimed he could swim using only his pectoral muscles? :confused:

It is common knowledge he was tied up and thrown into a river, then swam back to shore using his "Golden Snake" skills.

You must not be very well-liked in SD if you haven't heard that one yet.

Not as mind-blowing as "melting the baby" or "Su-Kong killing the White Eyebrow assassin," mind you, but a good SD'er should know his history.

[Lamassu]

It is common knowledge he was tied up and thrown into a river, then swam back to shore using his "Golden Snake" skills.

Now I'm not familiar with Golden Snake, but it would seem GM The would need to use more than his pecs to swim like that. A snake uses it's entire vertebrae to swim, so maybe GM The was using his spine, back muscles, hips and legs all in conjunction with one another. Eh, it's all theory anyway, as I don't think GM The will feel compelled to satisfy the scepticism of cynics anyway.


You must not be very well-liked in SD if you haven't heard that one yet.

I've heard of that story, but who cares? And people like me, or at least I think they do. :o


Not as mind-blowing as "melting the baby" or "Su-Kong killing the White Eyebrow assassin," mind you, but a good SD'er should know his history.

You don't think submerging your hands in scalding hot sand for a couple of hours won't develop enough heat in them to melt a baby if you touch it soon after? :confused: It's okay to believe in sand burn training, because the high and mighty Bruce Lee had demonstrations of it in 'Enter the Dragon'.

One more thing, none of this is MY history, it's Shaolin Do's history and like all martial art schools in this country, it's based on nothing more than myth and legend. You should take it with a grain of salt and focus on the material being taught instead. I personally, don't really give a rat's @$$ if GM The, can or cannot swim while being tied up or if he can shoot lightning out of his arse. That's not why I signed up.

[MasterKiller]

Now I'm not familiar with Golden Snake, but it would seem GM The would need to use more than his pecs to swim like that. A snake uses it's entire vertebrae to swim, so maybe GM The was using his spine, back muscles, hips and legs all in conjunction with one another.

Nonsense. It was all pecs.

[synack]

He does have some big @$$ pecs! :D:p

[Chain Whip]

GM The's exact, word for word answer on Snake Training.

"Yes, I learned the Snake Form, which is the highest form in our art. The idea is that when you are attacked you do not block the blows with your hands or feet. You move and twist your body out of thw way, like a snake being attacked by an eagle. This leaves your hands and feet free free to counterattack. Master Ie would tie my hands and feet and throw me a lake or sometimes a river. I would have to swim by wriggling my body like a snake."

No mention of pec muscles at all. Swimming like this isn't easy, but probably any decent swimmer could do it in a short amount time.

On the sand burn story GM The' never said he melted a baby. He said his original teacher killed his own baby accidently. His exact words - referring to his teacher was: " .....And he picked it up...and he burned it with his hands...and it died."

[xcakid]

You don't think longterm xcakid, I'm focusing on the 1000 pgs. mark! :D

My apologies. :p

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Chainwhip

"Hey Erasmus Mingatt - It appears that terminology, history and clothing mean much more to you than the body mechanics."

Whoever said ANYTHING about body mechanics? Before you put words in someone elses mouth..check your facts son!! I could care less if people showed up to practice in their underwear..but generally..yes..you can determine the legit styles from the "wanna be " ones..by seeing if they know what they are talking about in terms of the uniforms. Don't modify a Ford and call it a Chevy.

Quote:
Chainwhip..NO STYLE has 900 forms!!
"The "system" has many "styles" available - some styles have many forms, some have very few. There is supposed to be 900 forms of various styles within the system. Not that it matters to me whether it is 400 or 900 or whatever. It just means there is more to learn than I can possibly ever absorb."

Which is why the claim that Wolfman or Sing Kwang The or whoever is the current head honcho or the past head guy in the "system" learned all 900 or even 400 forms is just not possible. If you doubt me..try learning 900. If you started at birth..you'd be perhaps at the 200th by the time you were 80. If you doubt me--go to a school of an ACTUAL kung fu style(some include Wing Chun, CHoy Li Fut, Hung Ga, Jow Ga, Northern Shaolin and others) and tell them that Sin Kwang The, wolfman or anyone else affiliated with SD learned 900 forms. When they are done laughing then get back to me...You can call Shaolin-Do a system..you can call it an ice cream sundae..you can call it a lawnmower for all I care. There is a Shaolin Temple..that is a place..from the shaolin temple..came various styles. I suppose you could make the argument that if you group up and round up all of the styles that ever came out of Shaolin that this could be a system of sorts..but that is NOT the same thing that Shaolin IS a system. No..that is precisely the reason why separate styles evolved and generated..because you can't say you learned everything there is to know.

"Pretty naive thinking. In Shaolin-Do (Tao) the tradition is karate gis - the Georgia and Tennessee schools are being non-traditional within their own art by wearing frog buttons. It does seem that it doesn't change anyone's skill level either way."

You're a-s backwards my lad! Karate GIs are worm by Japanese styles. If you were to wear a karate GI 100 years ago or even 50 and walk into a kung fu school they would assume you are studying Katate, Judo or JiuJitsu. It doesn't affect anyones skill by what you wear..but what you wear is generally an indicator of what you are taught.


Quote:
There are grandmastgers of styles..not temples. You are confusing the title grandmaster with that of the Head Abbott.
I did?? Where did I say "Grandmaster of Temple...."

You don't have to say it. It's plain as day on the SD website.

"Should have been more clear for your benefit. When I said "he at one time saw the forms and practiced them for a short while" I should have said "he at one time LEARNED in PERSON from his sifu the forms and practiced them for a short while"

Being a sifu level instructor means you don't practice them for "a short while". You practice them for years and years and it takes a lifetime of practice to translate learning into application.


"Just saying he went there and visited with the Head Abbott and the wu-shu coaches. They were kind and respectful towards each other."

Again..what's your point? I don't get it!!! You are not going to see Taoist/Buddhist monks being impolite to anyone.



- "you obviously have not been to either temple."

I don't need to. Just read the history and development of Shaolin. Monks are pacifists.

"Again with spelling being so important............. The coaches at the Northern Temple would disagree with you. They comment that the SD material is clearly traditional CMA."


It IS important! DO IS a Japanese word. Someone on another thread made the comment that "Oh so you're saying that Bruce Lee was Japanese? He used "Do" in Jeet Kune Do". Where do people get this sh-t from? I never said he WAS Japanese..I said the WORD was Japanese..he borrowed the word. As for it being traditional CMA..I can learn bits and pieces of many different styles and call it anything I want.


"Why don't you fly over and go to the Quanzhou Temple and ask for those details?"

If you are so knowledgeable on SD..why don't you tell me?


"Take a picture of their weapon rack while you are there (the one with sai and tonfa on it)"

Whose weapon rack? go to Wikipedia and punch in "Tonfa"

[Judge Pen]

It IS important! DO IS a Japanese word. Someone on another thread made the comment that "Oh so you're saying that Bruce Lee was Japanese? He used "Do" in Jeet Kune Do". Where do people get this sh-t from? I never said he WAS Japanese..I said the WORD was Japanese..he borrowed the word. As for it being traditional CMA..I can learn bits and pieces of many different styles and call it anything I want.


I said that...in this thread. With all respect, "do" is an english spelling of "the way". How do you spell it in Japanese? With Kanji. How do you spell "the way" in Chinese? With Chinese characters. How do you romanize it? Depending on the dilect and the standardization (pinyin or wadegiles) dao, tao, typically, but the use of the romanization "do" means nothing in and of itself. SD also uses the romanization "chien" for fist instead of the more common "chuan" or "quan". It represents a particular romanizaiton of a particular dialect, but the meaning is the same. Why not call it "shaolin dao" or "shaolin tao" or even "si lum dao" I don't know, but I have never understood why the name should be offensive.

As for the gi statements, have you read the latest issue of KFM? Check out page 104. Are you going to call out these Danish kung fu practitioners as bull sh!t because they are wearing sashes with gis and practicing barefoot? Be consistent at least.

[Lamassu]

Just ignore the guy, he's obviously a troll. :mad: This little pi$$ing contest he's reviving is the same old cr@p that get's regurgitated over and over on this thread. Let him have his delusions; I don't know what he thinks he could possibly accomplish here except antagonize SDers. No one's going to say "OMG, all this time I was happy learning Shaolin Do, but then this anonymous jackhole on an internet thread says what I'm learning is cr@p! I have SEEN the light! Thank you brother, I will now leave the school and try to find something this non-entity doesn't have an issue with." :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

Just ignore the guy, he's obviously a troll. :mad: This little pi$$ing contest he's reviving is the same old cr@p that get's regurgitated over and over on this thread. Let him have his delusions; I don't know what he thinks he could possibly accomplish here except antagonize SDers. No one's going to say "OMG, all this time I was happy learning Shaolin Do, but then this anonymous jackhole on an internet thread says what I'm learning is cr@p! I have SEEN the light! Thank you brother, I will now leave the school and try to find something this non-entity doesn't have an issue with." :rolleyes:

I was thinking of looking up the thread discussing the chinese origins of the sai. :eek::D

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"I said that...in this thread. With all respect, "do" is an english spelling of "the way". How do you spell it in Japanese? With Kanji. How do you spell "the way" in Chinese? With Chinese characters. How do you romanize it? Depending on the dilect and the standardization (pinyin or wadegiles) dao, tao, typically, but the use of the romanization "do" means nothing in and of itself. "

No. Try again. Do is the pronunciation of the Japanese character. You confuse spelling with writing. I can write the character in Kanji..but the way I say it should not be confused with the way it is written. "The way" in Chinese could be "Tao" or depending on the dialect(over 1000 dialects) there are a few other ways it could be pronounced. In the same way that the word "Hung"(in Chinese) could be translated into "Red", "Bright" or "Flood".



"SD also uses the romanization "chien" for fist instead of the more common "chuan" or "quan". It represents a particular romanizaiton of a particular dialect, but the meaning is the same. Why not call it "shaolin dao" or "shaolin tao" or even "si lum dao" I don't know, but I have never understood why the name should be offensive."

Man..I sure do wish I knew where you get these off the wall assumptions from!! I never said the name was offensive. I never said that the style "Shao-lin Do" doesn't exist either. What I AM saying however..is that there is not a traditional kung fu style affiliated with the Shaolin temple called Shaolin-Do..it's a modern invention. As someone correctly put it before..Shao-lin Do exists..but it's not part of Shaolin. Karate has kung fu origins also..and yes..Karate exists..but Karate is not a shaolin kung fu style. Period!

"As for the gi statements, have you read the latest issue of KFM? Check out page 104. Are you going to call out these Danish kung fu practitioners as bull sh!t because they are wearing sashes with gis and practicing barefoot? Be consistent at least."

I am saying that I have..based on real life observation up close with my own two eyes..observed many styles which wear karate gis and wear karate belts and claim to be "kung fu" yet when I look for certain characteristics that are germaine and specific to kung fu in their actual MOVEMENTS..be they forms or even just individual patterns WITHIN forms..what these people almost universally perform is not any style of kung fu. It looks alot more like Shotokan/Goju-Ryu karate. That's all I mean.
__________________

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Lamassu,

Call me what you want..a troll..whatever.

"No one's going to say "OMG, all this time I was happy learning Shaolin Do, but then this anonymous jackhole on an internet thread says what I'm learning is cr@p! I have SEEN the light!"

I don't know what people are going to say. But I'm willing to bet the farm that if you took someone who was studying "Shao-lin Do" or "Temple kung fu" or other hybrid system that if they compared what they learned to a style with a traceable history, lineage and forms that are unique to that style..they would see a world of difference!!

If you doubt me..try studying some Hung Ga kung fu for a while..or some Wing Chun.

[Lamassu]

I don't know what people are going to say. But I'm willing to bet the farm that if you took someone who was studying "Shao-lin Do" or "Temple kung fu" or other hybrid system that if they compared what they learned to a style with a traceable history, lineage and forms that are unique to that style..they would see a world of difference!!

So what? All you're saying is if I compare Shaolin-Do with any other TCMA, then I'd notice a difference. No kidding?! :eek: My problem is that you, an anonymous non-entity, says Shaolin Do is fake because it doesn't have the similar trappings of other TCMA's in the U.S. My point is: why should I care what you think? I don't know anything about you, what (if any) martial art you study, where your school is located, who is the source of your kung fu material or if you've even participated in a class at Shaolin Do. Have you, or are you simply making generalized statements from what you've seen on the internet. Why does it bother you that Shaolin Do exists? There's nothing you can do about it except pi$$ and moan, and we really don't want to hear it.

[TingHexagram50]

"So what? All you're saying is if I compare Shaolin-Do with any other TCMA, then I'd notice a difference. No kidding?!"

You're saying "all your saying" as if it's inconsequential..believe me--it's pretty important!!


"My problem is that you, an anonymous non-entity, says Shaolin Do is fake because it doesn't have the similar trappings of other TCMA's in the U.S."

I'll say it again. I'm sure it exists..I'm just saying it's not a kung fu style.




"My point is: why should I care what you think?"

TaDa!! You shouldn't!

"I don't know anything about you, what (if any) martial art you study, where your school is located, who is the source of your kung fu material or if you've even participated in a class at Shaolin Do."

Does it matter where I study? If I participated in a SD class would I be given the opportunity to learn all 900 forms ? :cool: LOL


"Have you, or are you simply making generalized statements from what you've seen on the internet."


Go back and re-read what I stated about styles calling themselves kung fu but really aren't. You made the gesture I should take up SD. I'll return the favor..study a legit kung fu style and then tell me what you notice. If it matters...I study 8 step mantis. www.8step.com

"Why does it bother you that Shaolin Do exists?"

It doesn't. It makes me laugh about the 900 forms claim, the claim that Shaolin is a system and the claim that Wolfman/Sin Kwang The are/were the "grandmasters of the Shaolin temple". Such malapropism. It's like saying "The church we go to has a great Rabbi leading the congregation in the ways of Islam". :D :rolleyes:



"There's nothing you can do about it except pi$$ and moan, and we really don't want to hear it."

Then don't read what I write. And if SD was a legit kung fu style..this thread would be less than a page long..not over 300!!

[Lamassu]

I'm sorry I don't quite comprehend that, could you clarify please? :confused:

[Baqualin]

Lamassu,

Call me what you want..a troll..whatever.

"No one's going to say "OMG, all this time I was happy learning Shaolin Do, but then this anonymous jackhole on an internet thread says what I'm learning is cr@p! I have SEEN the light!"

I don't know what people are going to say. But I'm willing to bet the farm that if you took someone who was studying "Shao-lin Do" or "Temple kung fu" or other hybrid system that if they compared what they learned to a style with a traceable history, lineage and forms that are unique to that style..they would see a world of difference!!

If you doubt me..try studying some Hung Ga kung fu for a while..or some Wing Chun.

Dear Mr. Erranus,
It's really great to see someone have so much fun about something they have no clue about....Thanks,
BQ

[Baqualin]

"So what? All you're saying is if I compare Shaolin-Do with any other TCMA, then I'd notice a difference. No kidding?!"

You're saying "all your saying" as if it's inconsequential..believe me--it's pretty important!!


"My problem is that you, an anonymous non-entity, says Shaolin Do is fake because it doesn't have the similar trappings of other TCMA's in the U.S."

I'll say it again. I'm sure it exists..I'm just saying it's not a kung fu style.




"My point is: why should I care what you think?"

TaDa!! You shouldn't!

"I don't know anything about you, what (if any) martial art you study, where your school is located, who is the source of your kung fu material or if you've even participated in a class at Shaolin Do."

Does it matter where I study? If I participated in a SD class would I be given the opportunity to learn all 900 forms ? :cool: LOL


"Have you, or are you simply making generalized statements from what you've seen on the internet."


Go back and re-read what I stated about styles calling themselves kung fu but really aren't. You made the gesture I should take up SD. I'll return the favor..study a legit kung fu style and then tell me what you notice. If it matters...I study 8 step mantis. www.8step.com

"Why does it bother you that Shaolin Do exists?"

It doesn't. It makes me laugh about the 900 forms claim, the claim that Shaolin is a system and the claim that Wolfman/Sin Kwang The are/were the "grandmasters of the Shaolin temple". Such malapropism. It's like saying "The church we go to has a great Rabbi leading the congregation in the ways of Islam". :D :rolleyes:



"There's nothing you can do about it except pi$$ and moan, and we really don't want to hear it."

Then don't read what I write. And if SD was a legit kung fu style..this thread would be less than a page long..not over 300!!

I believe there's a few mantis threads over a page....especially on other forums.
BQ

[Baqualin]

"So what? All you're saying is if I compare Shaolin-Do with any other TCMA, then I'd notice a difference. No kidding?!"

You're saying "all your saying" as if it's inconsequential..believe me--it's pretty important!!


"My problem is that you, an anonymous non-entity, says Shaolin Do is fake because it doesn't have the similar trappings of other TCMA's in the U.S."

I'll say it again. I'm sure it exists..I'm just saying it's not a kung fu style.




"My point is: why should I care what you think?"

TaDa!! You shouldn't!

"I don't know anything about you, what (if any) martial art you study, where your school is located, who is the source of your kung fu material or if you've even participated in a class at Shaolin Do."

Does it matter where I study? If I participated in a SD class would I be given the opportunity to learn all 900 forms ? :cool: LOL


"Have you, or are you simply making generalized statements from what you've seen on the internet."


Go back and re-read what I stated about styles calling themselves kung fu but really aren't. You made the gesture I should take up SD. I'll return the favor..study a legit kung fu style and then tell me what you notice. If it matters...I study 8 step mantis. www.8step.com

"Why does it bother you that Shaolin Do exists?"

It doesn't. It makes me laugh about the 900 forms claim, the claim that Shaolin is a system and the claim that Wolfman/Sin Kwang The are/were the "grandmasters of the Shaolin temple". Such malapropism. It's like saying "The church we go to has a great Rabbi leading the congregation in the ways of Islam". :D :rolleyes:



"There's nothing you can do about it except pi$$ and moan, and we really don't want to hear it."

Then don't read what I write. And if SD was a legit kung fu style..this thread would be less than a page long..not over 300!!

Mr. Ting,
Oh by the way are you speaking for Mr. Erranus

[Chain Whip]

Eramus,

So now Shaolin-Do is fake, because you don’t like our uniforms (maybe TN and GA are okay though), you question our lineage and don’t believe anyone could learn even 400 forms. You are correct – YOU could not learn 400 forms because you have placed that limitation upon yourself. That has no bearing on another person’s capability. I may not be able to or even wish to learn that much and you can certainly question whether knowing that much would be valuable. That does not make it impossible.

It appears that you are a Hung Gar guy and I am very happy for you. It is a great style. Can you clarify for me the significant differences between a Hung Gar guy that has about 2500 hours of training time in and a Shaolin-Do guy with the same amount of time in. I can tell you the SD guy will around 75 forms at this point. Maybe a few less, possibly 15 or 20 more though. Let’s assume they practice in pants and T-shirts, have no ranking system, never learn a single word in Chinese and never learn anything about lineage or history. We will also assume that they have identical aptitudes and athleticism. This should leave us with the only “real” part in martial arts - the development of body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning. In what way will their minds and bodies be so different as to validate the “reality” of Hung Gar and the ‘fakeness” of Shaolin-Do.

[dragonf1y]

Chain Whip,

i think you are missing the point as to why people despise SD.


It appears that you are a Hung Gar guy and I am very happy for you. It is a great style. Can you clarify for me the significant differences between a Hung Gar guy that has about 2500 hours of training time in and a Shaolin-Do guy with the same amount of time in. I can tell you the SD guy will around 75 forms at this point. Maybe a few less, possibly 15 or 20 more though. Let’s assume they practice in pants and T-shirts, have no ranking system, never learn a single word in Chinese and never learn anything about lineage or history. We will also assume that they have identical aptitudes and athleticism. This should leave us with the only “real” part in martial arts - the development of body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning. In what way will their minds and bodies be so different as to validate the “reality” of Hung Gar and the ‘fakeness” of Shaolin-Do.

For converstation sake, lets throw Karate and TKD into that mix.

Now let's say that they are claiming to be Kung Fu.

Regardless of hours trained, development of body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning or any of that other great stuff, one fact still remains...

Karate & TKD are not 'Kung Fu'

THe same is true for SD.

To claim so would be either ingnorant or dishonest.

Which are you?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

For the record:

TingHexagram50 and I are housemates. I study preying mantis. He studies Wu tai chi. He doesn't have a computer..I do..so he asked if he could create a new screename. I said yeah as long as I can be aware of what he posts. I meant to log on before under my ER screename not his. Oops.

Hopefully this will clarify things..


""So now Shaolin-Do is fake,"

"I don't believe I ever used the word "fake". I think Ninjitsu is real also..I just don't say it's kung fu. If there is something about this point you still don't get..I'd be happy to break it down for you further..



"because you don’t like our uniforms (maybe TN and GA are okay though),"

Like? Now we are clearly going off on a tangent and into fashion sense. I think Karate uniforms look cool and like the design..just like I like kf uniforms, Aikido uniforms, Kendo uniforms,etc. But I don't wear an Aikido uniform and do Aikido maneuvers and philosophies and call it "kung fu".


"you question our lineage and don’t believe anyone could learn even 400 forms."

I'm not saying that this fellow Su Kong Djin(I'm sure I messed up the name--no disrepect intended) didn't exist. It's his claim of being "grandmaster of Shaolin" that makes me raise an eyebrow. I believe someone could learn 400 forms if each form were only 10 moves each. And why does it bother you that I don't believe it? I'm allowed to believe what I wish as are you. Better to be skeptical than to just accept something in blind faith. I could say I learned 10,000 forms. Doesn't mean I did. And for that matter...I'm not impressed with numbers. One could make the argument that all one would need in a fight would the mastery of just ONE form. We have a form in mantis called Da Fong Che(Large rolling wheel). I could take that form and only that form and practice it alone for 30 years...and beat to pieces someone who learned 400 or 900 forms just having a cursory understanding of each. Scratch that. I could practice one kick for 30 years and go against someone who learned 1,000 forms. Guess who is more likely to win? The kicker!!!


"That does not make it impossible."

Theoretically..ANYTHING is possible. I'm not questioning whether it's possible..I'm questioning whether it is LIKELY..vast difference ;)



"It is a great style." Have you studied any?


"Can you clarify for me the significant differences between a Hung Gar guy that has about 2500 hours of training time in and a Shaolin-Do guy with the same amount of time in."

Can't remember if it was you or someone else...but someone accused me of making a "p-ssing contest" about this. Now who is making the contest? There isn't a meter or a timer or pre-programmed ammount of hours that determines expertise. Which is one of the reasons why the belt system in so many respects is rather peculiar. People have this cultural authority which says "Well I got a black belt so..you can't tell me ,etc.". I've seen black belts get their a-ses handed to them by people who have lower belts. 2500 hours may be impressive compared to someone who has no experience..but the other part of the equation has to be HEART!!


"I can tell you the SD guy will around 75 forms at this point. Maybe a few less, possibly 15 or 20 more though. Let’s assume they practice in pants and T-shirts, have no ranking system, never learn a single word in Chinese and never learn anything about lineage or history."


As Felix Unger from the show "The Odd Couple" once said: "Never assume..because when you assume..you make an A-S out of you and me".


"We will also assume that they have identical aptitudes and athleticism. This should leave us with the only “real” part in martial arts - the development of body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning."

You keep coming back to this body mechanics thing. There is alot more to KF than body mechanics. There is: taking into account your opponents size, speed, leverage, age, conditioning, mental state, years of training and avenue of approach. I could go on and on. I also must take into consideration my own ability in these areas.


"In what way will their minds and bodies be so different as to validate the “reality” of Hung Gar and the ‘fakeness” of Shaolin-Do."

It seems I've hit a nerve. I'm not glorifying Hung Ga..there are aspects to it that I think are impractical and there are probably things about SD that work well in combat also. I hold no style on a pedestal. I'm also not saying that Shaolin-Do doesn't teach people how to fight. I'm saying that some of the ways that concepts and structures are identified in the style are not commensurate with what styles emanating from the Shaolin Temple are known for. If I created a style of Karate but didn't use the term "sensei" and made comments such as "Erasmus-Ryu Karate was started by Erasmus Mingatt--the Emperor of Japan..but we have no belt ranking system and no katas(two characteristics of karate which identify it AS Karate)" most traditional karate styles would scream "Bu-l****"!! See my point?

Peace,
EM

[Chain Whip]

Eramus

No - I don't see your point - mostly because you don't have one.

Your post today at 2:33pm was titled "SD is Fake!!" - so I think you did say that. Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50" seem to be able to answer my simple question on the difference in the value of the training.


I could take that form and only that form and practice it alone for 30 years...and beat to pieces someone who learned 400 or 900 forms just having a cursory understanding of each. Scratch that. I could practice one kick for 30 years and go against someone who learned 1,000 forms. Guess who is more likely to win? The kicker!!!

You are wrong. Tell me where you live and I'll get a SD guy there to show you. For your sake I hope you don't live in Atlanta - or anywhere Bruce might travel to.


because you don’t like our uniforms (maybe TN and GA are okay though),"

Like? Now we are clearly going off on a tangent and into fashion sense. I think Karate uniforms look cool and like the design..just like I like kf uniforms, Aikido uniforms, Kendo uniforms,etc. But I don't wear an Aikido uniform and do Aikido maneuvers and philosophies and call it "kung fu".

glad to hear you like the uniforms


2500 hours may be impressive compared to someone who has no experience..but the other part of the equation has to be HEART!!

Let's make heart part of aptitude - and try and answer the simple question.


"I can tell you the SD guy will around 75 forms at this point. Maybe a few less, possibly 15 or 20 more though. Let’s assume they practice in pants and T-shirts, have no ranking system, never learn a single word in Chinese and never learn anything about lineage or history."


As Felix Unger from the show "The Odd Couple" once said: "Never assume..because when you assume..you make an A-S out of you and me".


That is the least intelligent answer I have ever heard for a hypothetical question.


You keep coming back to this body mechanics thing. There is alot more to KF than body mechanics.

Really - try telling that to the guy with superior mechanics as his beats your ass. Or try telling that to the doctor when you need surgery for poor mechanics - or poor health.


There is: taking into account your opponents size, speed, leverage, age, conditioning, mental state, years of training and avenue of approach. I could go on and on. I also must take into consideration my own ability in these areas.


That is why my hypothetical question eliminated those varibles. Again, I'll speak slowly now...... try...... to.....answer.....the.......question


are not commensurate with what styles emanating from the Shaolin Temple are known for.

This comment is based on what??? A person who hasn't been to either of the wushu temples and seems to believe there was an unbroken history along with great records. Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born - until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money from people (read you) that didn't know any better. -- My mistake - I inferred you might be 25+ years old. But your posts indicate a 13 year old kid with an internet connection.

[dragonf1y]

Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50" seem to be able to answer my simple question on the difference in the value of the training.

OK, since you obviously have a hard time understanding the point of posts, I will spell it out for you simply.

The 'value' of the training will likely not be much different (my opinion only). I will even say the value of training received traing received from a good SD instructor (oxy moron?) would be greater than the value of the training from a poor, yet actuall Kung Fu teacher.

That is not the point.

The point is this....

You would not call Karate or TKD as Kung Fu.

Why then would you call SD as Kung Fu?

Again I ask, Ingnorance or Dishonesty?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"No - I don't see your point - mostly because you don't have one."

I've made no less than THREE points dude. And I've made them repeatedly!! I can't help it if you don't understand them.

"Your post today at 2:33pm was titled "SD is Fake!!" - so I think you did say that."

I guess my attempt at getting a rise out of you worked.LOL. Usually when they have resorted to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the argument. Yawn!




"Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50"

For the record..I'm engaged...yes..to a woman. Usually when they resort to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the debate.




"You are wrong. Tell me where you live and I'll get a SD guy there to show you." There's a SD school only about a mile away from my apartment. No need to go to GA.




"
Let's make heart part of aptitude - and try and answer the simple question."

I did.

"That is the least intelligent answer I have ever heard for a hypothetical question."

Oh? When I take a fight between two people..I don't "assume" anything. The scenario you were describing about how "Now lets assume ..." and "lets also assume"..I try and never do.

"Really - try telling that to the guy with superior mechanics as his beats your ass."

You can have super mechanics and be slow. You can also have superior mechanics and lack a good strategy. So to can a person have superior mechanics and not have the ability to adapt to a changing situation.

"Or try telling that to the doctor when you need surgery for poor mechanics - or poor health."

Tangent #...? I forgot..Tangent #10? Now we are talking about surgery? :p


"That is why my hypothetical question eliminated those varibles. Again, I'll speak slowly now...... try...... to.....answer.....the.......question"

And I'll speak even S-L-O-W-E-R to yoooouuuuu..because you've got alot to learn sir!! You can talk about hypothetical situations till the river runs dry, I'm talking about an ACTUAL situation. You want to eliminate those variables..go ahead..but taking them into consideration will determine who wins the fight!


" is based on what??? A person who hasn't been to either of the wushu temples and seems to believe there was an unbroken history along with great records."

I've neve been to Iraq or North Korea yet..does your comment mean that I need to go to either place to read about it's TRUE history?


"Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born"

There was a temple allright. It may not have been functionng as it did in the Ming dynasty- but it sure existed.

"until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money"

Ah yes..making money just like Sin Kwang The has done..and it seems quite handsomely from people(read you ) who want to believe a revisionist history of a style of kung fu which calls forms "katas"..all 900 of them.

We can play this game all day buddy! Ya know what? I grow tiresome of this pointless diatribe. If you doubt me..take a trip to either Shaolin temple(since you are so fond of using the visiting angle as a platform to further your argument) and mention to the head Abbott that Su Kong Djin was the "grandmaster of the temple" and learned 900 forms. I am sure that he would be polite and not laugh but that doesnt mean he likely would not be thinking "is this guy on crack?".

" My mistake - I inferred you might be 25+ years old. But your posts indicate a 13 year old kid with an internet connection."


I'm 41 and clearly you are missing the mark.


As for a SD beating an 8 step sifu in a real fight..I have no desire to do this and I can tell you with certainty it would be no contest--900 forms or not! :cool:

I find that people who are confident of their ability in what they are studying do not need to issue internet tough guy challenges all the way from Georgia. Nuff said..

EM

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"No - I don't see your point - mostly because you don't have one."

I've made no less than THREE points dude. And I've made them repeatedly!! I can't help it if you don't understand them.

"Your post today at 2:33pm was titled "SD is Fake!!" - so I think you did say that."

I guess my attempt at getting a rise out of you worked.LOL. Usually when they have resorted to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the argument. Yawn!




"Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50"

For the record..I'm engaged...yes..to a woman. Usually when they resort to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the debate.




"You are wrong. Tell me where you live and I'll get a SD guy there to show you." There's a SD school only about a mile away from my apartment. No need to go to GA.




"
Let's make heart part of aptitude - and try and answer the simple question."

I did.

"That is the least intelligent answer I have ever heard for a hypothetical question."

Oh? When I take a fight between two people..I don't "assume" anything. The scenario you were describing about how "Now lets assume ..." and "lets also assume"..I try and never do.

"Really - try telling that to the guy with superior mechanics as his beats your ass."

You can have super mechanics and be slow. You can also have superior mechanics and lack a good strategy. So to can a person have superior mechanics and not have the ability to adapt to a changing situation.

"Or try telling that to the doctor when you need surgery for poor mechanics - or poor health."

Tangent #...? I forgot..Tangent #10? Now we are talking about surgery? :p


"That is why my hypothetical question eliminated those varibles. Again, I'll speak slowly now...... try...... to.....answer.....the.......question"

And I'll speak even S-L-O-W-E-R to yoooouuuuu..because you've got alot to learn sir!! You can talk about hypothetical situations till the river runs dry, I'm talking about an ACTUAL situation. You want to eliminate those variables..go ahead..but taking them into consideration will determine who wins the fight!


" is based on what??? A person who hasn't been to either of the wushu temples and seems to believe there was an unbroken history along with great records."

I've neve been to Iraq or North Korea yet..does your comment mean that I need to go to either place to read about it's TRUE history?


"Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born"

There was a temple allright. It may not have been functionng as it did in the Ming dynasty- but it sure existed.

"until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money"

Ah yes..making money just like Sin Kwang The has done..and it seems quite handsomely from people(read you ) who want to believe a revisionist history of a style of kung fu which calls forms "katas"..all 900 of them.

We can play this game all day buddy! Ya know what? I grow tiresome of this pointless diatribe. If you doubt me..take a trip to either Shaolin temple(since you are so fond of using the visiting angle as a platform to further your argument) and mention to the head Abbott that Su Kong Djin was the "grandmaster of the temple" and learned 900 forms. I am sure that he would be polite and not laugh but that doesnt mean he likely would not be thinking "is this guy on crack?".

" My mistake - I inferred you might be 25+ years old. But your posts indicate a 13 year old kid with an internet connection."


I'm 41 and clearly you are missing the mark.


As for a SD beating an 8 step sifu in a real fight..I have no desire to do this and I can tell you with certainty it would be no contest--900 forms or not! :cool:

I find that people who are confident of their ability in what they are studying do not need to issue internet tough guy challenges all the way from Georgia. Nuff said..

EM

[Leto]

Kung Fu means mastering a skill through hard work, or time and effort. practicing karate is "kung fu". practicing tae kwon do is "kung fu". Painting, calligraphy, and cooking are all "kung fu". Shaolin do is definately Kung Fu. It was definately taught by a man of Chinese descent, born and raised in Indonesia, who adapted himself to live and do business in America. It's content is similar enough to other Chinese styles that it is plausible that it has a similar root as all those other styles which say they came from shaolin, and different enough that we can't say it actually is one of those other styles. (only a few of the forms seem to be exactly the same as those taught by other styles). Which forms came from where, who and when is unknown. How and why different elements were added can be debated, but can't be known for sure without talking to the people who added them.

not getting sufficient training, not understanding core principles, and employing various organizational methods does not change what animal it is.

If it looks like a dragon and sounds like a dragon, it must be a dragon. Now what's a dragon? ;)

[TingHexagram50]

Sorry for the repeated post.

" Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born - until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money"

So let me get this straight. Up until 1982 there was no Shaolin temple. It never existed and some guy ..lets call him John Smith said "Hey..I've got a great idea..I was tripping on some awesome LSD last night..and I thought it would be a great marketing gimmick to make this new place called a "Shaolin temple". What's that you say? I'm gonna build this elborate structure with walls and a 1,000 pound gold Buddah. As another way to draw people in..I'm going to ask all my beer drinking buddies who are at home watching Jerry Springer to shave their heads, take a vow of celibacy, become vegetarians and try this new thing called "kung fu".

Clearly sir..you have delusions of grandeur!! For starters lets take a look at how if there was "NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE" since long before I was born..there would be no kung fu(of ANY style)..much less a "system of Shaolin"..much less..you guessed it..NO SHAO-LIN DO!!!

Therefore..I can only conclude that you are quite gullable and fall for just about any claim offered by someone and this is potentiated by the fact that he makes an innacurate claim that he was the "Grandmaster of Shao-lin".

I can claim that the USA elects a prime-minister as they do in Canada..doesn't mean its so!

[synack]

I take Shao-lin Tao at one of the Atlanta schools. My wife studies TKD and I can tell you they are worlds apart.

I like the people I've met in Shao-lin Tao (I'm new to it) and I think they have some great instructors. But like anything...some instructors aren't as great, but that doesn't mean the school is fake. Most everyone has a full time job.

As far as lineage is concerned. I try not to get into the lineage discussion because I think it's a waste of time. Nothing is proven and I'm a skeptic anyway. If I can't prove something, I won't waste my time on it.

If you have questions about Shaolin-do or Shao-lin Tao (whereever you are located). Stop in and watch a class... you can even attend if you want. Nobody will bite.. we're all nice people like you. I don't feel like I'm being "taken" by attending a school with a non-proven lineage because I went in and watched. Liked what I saw and signed up.

Too bad the internet bullies won't bother to check it out for themselves.

peace,
synack

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"It was definately taught by a man of Chinese descent, born and raised in Indonesia, who adapted himself to live and do business in America"

There is no Shaolin temple in Indonesia.

I've been unfairly judged here. I'm not saying that SD is an ineffective fighting style..nor am I suggesting that a person should not learn it.

I'm sure that the style trains its practitioners adequately to get the job done..and in the end..that is what matters..

It's with some of the CLAIMS made..that's a horse of a different color.

[Chain Whip]

There is no Shaolin temple in Indonesia.

Correct - there was no Shaolin Temple anywhere at the time GM The' began training. Yes, the temple was reopened/rebuilt around 1982. There was a Shaolin Temple(s) at least until the 1920's. So, if it about the building and not the transference of knowledge - then none of us have traditional Shaolin Kung Fu. We could only have the new 25 year old style called Shaolin because it comes from a building that was reconstructed on the same site. They teach modern wushu there.



I've been unfairly judged here. I'm not saying that SD is an ineffective fighting style..nor am I suggesting that a person should not learn it.

Thank you.


I'm sure that the style trains its practitioners adequately to get the job done..and in the end..that is what matters..

Again - I agree and thank you. I have seen some outstanding people in Shaolin-Do and some awful ones. Just like any school/style/system/art/ that has a lot of students.


It's with some of the CLAIMS made..that's a horse of a different color.

Cannot argue this point. Some of the claims and history are "out there" I really wish they weren't.

.............................

To say it isn't CMA is silly. Yes, we use too many Japanese terms, but that does not change the forms/katas:) Also, a lot of the basic material looks like Japanese Karate - seeing we believe the Japanese got their martial arts from China - shouldn't real traditional Chinese martial arts have a similar look? In other words it isn't that our early stuff looks like Japanese Karate, it is that Japanese Karate looks like rudimentary Shaolin. In one of Robert Smiths first books he had a quote from a Chinese martial arts master that was essentially "Karate is nothing more that rudimentary Shaolin" If this is true (and I am not old enough to have been there and witnessed the first time a Japanese person learned from a Chinese person) then it would be hard to say you are doing Shaolin unless you had material that strongly resembled Japanese Karate. You would also need the I Chin Ching and a few other things to be real traditional.

However, if you believe that it is only CMA if it falls into the what we would classify as being modern. We have many forms that are taught in other CMA schools. Our Tiger/Crane, Classical Hua, Preying Mantis, some spear forms, some of the Drunken forms, several of the sword forms, etc. etc. etc. If we aren't doing CMA then most CMA schools aren't either.

Hopefully, we can all agree that our lineage and history are suspect. But, as in any school, the people that train hard, develop skills and improve their health.

Some of you may never have seen any of our art done by reasonably skilled people. I just found these clips on Master Grooms' YouTube Channel. Maybe I'm wrong, but broadsword, drunken, and 3-sectional sound Chinese to me. The 3-sectional is just a guy with a few years training doing some spins. The other two forms can be found elsewhere in the world of CMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZAk5fKrys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwLrwRefi-c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWfUBipuzXk

[WhiteEarp]

Well i'm throwing myself in the mix again. Just for the hack of it. I love this discussion. There's no end to it!:D
Anyway, Shaolin-Do...
Allright picture this:

Put a shaolin-do practicioner in say pants, feiyue shoes and a t-shirt.
Change all the terminology into Chinese. Call Shaolin-Do Shaolin-Tao or something else.
I don't think anyone would be complaining as much as they do now.
And again if you people have been reading through the posts.
Yes!
There was a school in Bandung Indonesia and yes they taught kung fu.
(And kun-tao for the indonesian people.)

Let's examen this for awhile. It's 1961. Indonesia, there were not many kung fu schools outside of Asia.
There were no big branches no commercially exploited international schools with shiny uniforms.

It was hardcore to the bone. The trainingregiments in those days were grizly hard.
Broken bones and other serious injuries are not uncommon you train everyday for 6 hours.

Instead of going 2/3 times a week for 2 hours to your local school after work.
If you know some history about indonesia after WWII you would know that chinese we're(and still are) not the most loved people there. CMA and other traditions we're forbidden by the state.

So some masters put the pupils in Gi's and gave them rankingbelts and used indonesian/japanese terminology. In secret they were still teaching kung fu.
In those days, who the hell cared what you wore anyway?? :confused:
On the old black and white pictures i see just an old man with a white t shirt and black pants and chinese shoes.

It reminds me of Skateboarding back in the day. If you didn't wore Airwalk sneakers an pants hanging on your ass and XXL shirts and used words from the street you weren't a real "skater" according to the so called "skaters maffia". But one guy who just wore "normal clothing" and just spoke "normal" beated all of the other guys on technique speed and agility.:p

Is this happening to the kung fu? We now have a kungfu maffia deciding for us what's real kung fu and what's not based on what language they speak/use and what clothes they were and what kind of system they use to keep track of each students progress??:rolleyes:

[BentMonk]

Of the three clips posted the drunken form is, IMO the best one. I consider this to be an example of good SD. I also see nothing but TCMA in that form.

[Lamassu]

Of the three clips posted the drunken form is, IMO the best one. I consider this to be an example of good SD. I also see nothing but TCMA in that form.

Nah! It's apparent now after watching those three vids that GM The is totally ripping us off! Any of these trolls, Erasmus, TH50, could kick Master Grooms @$$. I don't even know who they are or if they're any good, but they talk a lot of trash so they must be a bunch of bad@$$es! :p

"It's not real kung fu because you guys wear japanese gi's; and 'Do's a japanese word."

LOL

You trolls are the ones that keep this thread going, so in that respect, thank you. :D

[sunfist]

Also, a lot of the basic material looks like Japanese Karate - seeing we believe the Japanese got their martial arts from China - shouldn't real traditional Chinese martial arts have a similar look? In other words it isn't that our early stuff looks like Japanese Karate, it is that Japanese Karate looks like rudimentary Shaolin. In one of Robert Smiths first books he had a quote from a Chinese martial arts master that was essentially "Karate is nothing more that rudimentary Shaolin" If this is true (and I am not old enough to have been there and witnessed the first time a Japanese person learned from a Chinese person) then it would be hard to say you are doing Shaolin unless you had material that strongly resembled Japanese Karate.


There is no absolute proof of anything, so how do we know?

But of course i know, because i take shaolin do!

http://www.richmond.k12.mi.us/~lmacdonald/March/SEUDONE.gif

[WhiteEarp]

There is no absolute proof of anything, so how do we know?

But of course i know, because i take shaolin do!

http://www.richmond.k12.mi.us/~lmacdonald/March/SEUDONE.gif

Anyway, (okinawa) Karate is derived from White Crane.
I once saw a Sensei in Ishin Ryu(mix of sports and traditional karate)perform a form for me and my brother. And i recognized some of the techniques.

But i can see that the late grandmasters didn't tell everything to the japanese.
Some techniques they performed in their form are just plain "wrong" according to my teacher.

[MasterKiller]

Some of you may never have seen any of our art done by reasonably skilled people. I just found these clips on Master Grooms' YouTube Channel. Maybe I'm wrong, but broadsword, drunken, and 3-sectional sound Chinese to me. The 3-sectional is just a guy with a few years training doing some spins. The other two forms can be found elsewhere in the world of CMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZAk5fKrys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwLrwRefi-c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWfUBipuzXk

The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor, which is indicative of all the SD I've seen. The time spent in Indonesia seems to have changed the way your people execute Chinese forms, which is why people tell you it's not CMA, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor, which is indicative of all the SD I've seen.

JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.

I would have to agree.
It just seems like its "karate-like kung fu".

Even Shoriniji Kempo is more "kung fu like" than that.

Wither you use Gi's of Japanese "terminology" matters very little to me, but it just doesn't look like any Shaolin-based forms I ahve seen.

[WhiteEarp]

I would have to agree.
It just seems like its "karate-like kung fu".

Even Shoriniji Kempo is more "kung fu like" than that.

Wither you use Gi's of Japanese "terminology" matters very little to me, but it just doesn't look like any Shaolin-based forms I ahve seen.


Okay this looks well uhm... not bad or something but indeed it looks like karate or kempo people trying to imitate modern wushu forms.
It does not look like anything i've been tought and my master went to the same place and in the same period as your grand master did.:)
Please don't take this as bashing or flaming or anything.
I'm curious do you have a monkeyform you could post here.(a non acrobatic and non show version please)you may also send me a private message.

[Chain Whip]

The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor,

I would say you are completely correct on this "flavor" point.

When we have done demos in China, they recognize our "flavor" as being traditional CMA. It appears many people aren't able to recognize TCMA because they have only seen modern traditional and wushu (not that there seems to be much difference)

Besides hitting with power what else is it that we do that "flavors" the movements in a way you are unfamilar with?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Look..

If you're being attacked..I don't care if you call what you learn in the style "oogie-boogies" instead of forms. I also don't care if you practice your MA in the nude or with armor like the Knights did in mideval times. Nor do I care if you claim to know 5 million forms or just 3!(if you exclude weapon sets..Wing Chun only has 3 forms). A raving psychotic wants to cause you HARM..if you jab the f-cker in the eye and elbow smash him in the windpipe..unless he's on PCP and thinks he can fly/is Jesus..he's more than likely going to go down. Call it kung fu, shaolin do, Dying slug style, I'm hung like a bear on Growth hormone fist..who cares!(this is "from a pragmatic POV)

BUT...

"To say it isn't CMA is silly."


Technically Karate is CMA based..technically so is Jiu Jitsu,etc.etc. When these styles grew and evolved from Feudal Japan/Okinawa and were modified by subtracting moves and changing around certain philosophies..for example the way punches are thrown and how power is generating in a different manner..it may have Chinese ORIGINS..but it really becomes something else. When Bruce Lee modified Wing Chun and added aspects of boxing and fencing..it was no longer Wing Chun..it became the core identity of JKD. I'm not saying this is bad..nor am I saying it is good..I'm just saying it is what
"IS"





"Yes, we use too many Japanese terms, but that does not change the forms/katas Also, a lot of the basic material looks like Japanese Karate - seeing we believe the Japanese got their martial arts from China - shouldn't real traditional Chinese martial arts have a similar look?"

Real traditional Chinese martial arts should look LIKE real TCMA.
I think again to clarify it would be helpful to understand that I don't look at another form of MA and say "If it's not KF..it's worthless..I don't want to learn it". Aikido and Kuk Sool Won are two styles..I'd like to learn..one is Japanese..one is Korean. But both are performed and look COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than eachother since both are looking to do completely different things. You don't try and learn TKD and then call it "Aikido-Do" because it's not Aikido!


"In other words it isn't that our early stuff looks like Japanese Karate, it is that Japanese Karate looks like rudimentary Shaolin."

In alot of respects..Japanese Karate IS rudimentary Shaolin..but that's not the point. Japanese Karate doesn't claim that Sensei ------- who founded the system was GM of Shaolin.

"If this is true (and I am not old enough to have been there and witnessed the first time a Japanese person learned from a Chinese person) then it would be hard to say you are doing Shaolin unless you had material that strongly resembled Japanese Karate."

I suppose but to get the time line accurate it would be the other way around. And again.. what is meant by rudimentary? Shaolin as a PLACE..has hundreds and perhaps thousands of styles. Some are sub styles..some are modifications of existing styles..some are novel and some are dead styles. I would have less of an issue if Robert Smith said --------- or -------- - Do is a modification of --------- style of kung fu. Saying a modification of Shaolin is a malapropism. It's like saying that ------ style is a modification of Dojo. One is the place where Karate-ka practice..and what they practice is the MA.

I'll explain it from a slightly different stance. There is a "kung fu" school about 5 miles away from where I live(It's not SD but another school). When I first moved here I called this school and asked "What style of Kung fu do you teach"? They paused and said "Shaolin". I thanked them politely and hung up. Saying one teaches Shaolin is almost like calling a 4 year University and asking "What majors does your University offer?" and the representative says "College". See my point now?



"You would also need the I Chin Ching and a few other things to be real traditional." One can learn traditional kung fu without never opening the I-Ching.

"However, if you believe that it is only CMA if it falls into the what we would classify as being modern. We have many forms that are taught in other CMA schools. Our Tiger/Crane, Classical Hua, Preying Mantis, some spear forms, some of the Drunken forms, several of the sword forms, etc. etc. etc. If we aren't doing CMA then most CMA schools aren't either."

OK..yes..but again to digress. Tiger-Crane is a form from Hung Ga. Classical Hua(flower fist) is a form originally derived from Bak Sil Lum(an umbrella term to include the 5 Northern fighting families). Preying Mantis is a complete style with many branches and within "Preying mantis" are different forms.

If SD wants to borrow forms from other styles fine. But give credit to those styles. Don't say that these forms are part of a system that is named after a temple.

[MasterKiller]

When we have done demos in China, they recognize our "flavor" as being traditional CMA. It appears many people aren't able to recognize TCMA because they have only seen modern traditional and wushu (not that there seems to be much difference)

blah blah.

The Chinese say....When we were in CHina....This old Chinese guy at a tournament said...

Fortune Cookie anectdotes.

[Lamassu]

The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor, which is indicative of all the SD I've seen. The time spent in Indonesia seems to have changed the way your people execute Chinese forms, which is why people tell you it's not CMA, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.

I've noticed that as well when comparing SD forms with other TCM forms. SD isn't excecuted as fluidly as say, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, or Shaolin (in reference to the bald guys living in the temples). I've also noticed the utter lack of forms comparably similar from our school and others. All this is frustrating for a student of SD when talking shop with martial artists in other schools, because our technique isn't traditionally TCM in excecution, but neither is it karate. Eh, all I know is I likes it and it makes me good! :D

[Chain Whip]

I'll explain it from a slightly different stance. There is a "kung fu" school about 5 miles away from where I live(It's not SD but another school). When I first moved here I called this school and asked "What style of Kung fu do you teach"? They paused and said "Shaolin". I thanked them politely and hung up. Saying one teaches Shaolin is almost like calling a 4 year University and asking "What majors does your University offer?" and the representative says "College". See my point now?

Again it is your issue with terminology. If you made the same phone call to many schools in China, especially the ones in DongFong. You have to hang up on most of them. Probably the biggest school in Beijing is called something like "The Beijing Shaolin Wushu Academy" The head guy there "trained at the Shaolin Temple" He says he does Shaolin Kung-Fu. Their demos are pure modern wushu with parlor trick "chi demos" -- exactly like they do at the Temples.

[Chain Whip]

blah blah.

The Chinese say....When we were in CHina....This old Chinese guy at a tournament said...

Fortune Cookie anectdotes.

Great answer - I see what you mean about "flavor" I'm converted now - can I come train with you??????:D:D:D:D

[Erasmus Mingatt]

http://www.morrowsacademy.com/

Another guy who is misrepresenting kung fu. I checked this guy out twice and he's doing Shotokan Karate. I asked to see some of his 5 animal forms and I don't know WHAT the he-l he's doing.

[KungFu Student]

Great answer - I see what you mean about "flavor" I'm converted now - can I come train with you??????:D:D:D:D

The real question you need to ask yourself is why should you care what they naysayer’s on this thread think? As you have seen, no matter what you say or do will change their minds, they are already made up. If you are happy with your training, then stick with it, and pay no attention to the detractors.

[MasterKiller]

Burying your head in the sand is always a good tactic in life.

Use what others say to inform yourself.

If you like it, that's cool. But that's no reason to walk around ignorant.

[KungFu Student]

Burying your head in the sand is always a good tactic in life.

Use what others say to inform yourself.

If you like it, that's cool. But that's no reason to walk around ignorant.

How is being content with your training and disagreeing with another's point of view being ignorant? I personally don't see the point in trying to convince someone who's mind is already made up.

[Black Jack II]

Technically Karate is CMA based..technically so is Jiu Jitsu,etc.etc

One of the biggest myths ever....no proof in this.

[Mas Judt]

Well, Sumo probably is rooted in CMA ... the Sumo syllabus of throws is classical Shuai Chiao minus the big belly...

Some karate is rooted in Fukien Kung Fu - although they totally misinterpreted it. The similarities between 5 ancestors fist and some Karate is fairly obvious - although it the karate version is certainly something different now....


But it is not a valid thing to say 'karate evolved from CMA, therefore karate is the same as CMA or Shoalin.

The only serious issue CMA players have with SD is the outright lies and BS about 'the grandmaster of shaolin' et al. Long hashed over. Isn't this put to rest yet?

[MasterKiller]

How is being content with your training and disagreeing with another's point of view being ignorant? I personally don't see the point in trying to convince someone who's mind is already made up.

Well, how does SD not looking like CMA keep you from being content?

A lot of people seem to have an enormous amount of emotional and personal investment in maintaining that SD is real Shaolin.

If you are truely content in the training, it shouldn't matter.

[Lamassu]

Well, how does SD not looking like CMA keep you from being content?

A lot of people seem to have an enormous amount of emotional and personal investment in maintaining that SD is real Shaolin.

If you are truely content in the training, it shouldn't matter.

It doesn't.

[MasterKiller]

It doesn't.

But for some on here, it does...

[KungFu Student]

But for some on here, it does...

I agree in the fact that some put too much emphasis on whether or not some art is considered traditional, has lineage ect. If that is important to you, great. The things that were important to me;
1. Would it make me into something more that I was? (An overweight slacker ;))
2. Is it something I would want to devote a part of my life to and strive to excel at?
3. Could I afford it? (Hey, I have to watch my pennies!)

I don't expect the execution of my forms to look like a Shaolin monk, a TCMA practitioner, or anybody else. I am who I am, and the way I go through my forms will be different. I make no claims, and if someone does not like the fact that it does not look like what they believe is TCMA, then so be it.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"Again it is your issue with terminology."

But chainwhip..it's IMPORTANT amigo!! If you are scheduled to get your appendix removed and before you go under the gas..the surgeon looks at your chart and says "Ah.yes..Mr. Chainwhip..we see you are going to have one of your testicles removed"..wouldn't you say "Uh..hey doc..WHOA!!..you got the wrong chart there sir"?

Take some verifiable traditional kung fu for a few years and THEN you will see what I mean. Some examples of good styles include(in no particular order): Wing Chun, Eagle Claw(not eagle claw wu-shu), Preying mantis(there are several versions--some include 7 star, 8 step, wah lum, plum blossom, tai chi mantis, 6 harmonies), Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Bak Mei(white eyebrow style), Chang Chuan and others.



"Probably the biggest school in Beijing is called something like "The Beijing Shaolin Wushu Academy" The head guy there "trained at the Shaolin Temple" He says he does Shaolin Kung-Fu. Their demos are pure modern wushu"

Wu shu and kung fu are not the same thing. Wu Shu is a demonstration sport..it's analagous to Sport Tae Kwon Do when compared to the TKD"

"with parlor trick "chi demos"


chi is not a parlor trick. There are some things that some sifus do which is not a real fair demonstration of chi--but trust me...it exists. It would be wise to not counter with "no..chi is a myth"..unless you want to open up a can of worms and have this thread go on for ANOTHER 300 something pages!



What state do you live in? I'm sure I could recommend several schools..just for your own knowledge...you'd be pleasantly suprised at the difference.

[Judge Pen]

JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.


That's funny to me, because that form has been done that way for as long as I can remember. I did it the way I was taught and I didn't try to change its appearance in any way. And, I kow I'm really a poor forms person in comparison.

I will say that the drunk guy was very very good. I have trouble seeing how his techniques, such as the 360 degree front sweep that I've only seen done that way in other chinese styles, doesn't look CMA enough. I can understand people picking at a drunk form's applicability/utility, but not the origin of the techniques displayed.

I'll agree that there has been some influence on the way SD is perfomred that has altered the way its forms are done when compared to other CMA forms. And, at the same time, the way that CMA evolved in other areas. I think that SD in Bangdung was probably isolated from other CMA and it took on more of a power emphasis instead of the flowing emphasis that other CMA has more of. That makes SD its own unique animal, but I still maintain that its origins are chinese, not japanese, korean or indonesian.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"That makes SD its own unique animal, but I still maintain that its origins are chinese, not japanese, korean or indonesian."

Doesn't this get tiring after a while? Having an ORIGIN isn't the same thing as BEING the same thing.

My origins are from my mother and father. I have traits from both..but you don't see me saying "I AM my father(or mother)."

[Judge Pen]

Classical Hua(flower fist) is a form originally derived from Bak Sil Lum(an umbrella term to include the 5 Northern fighting families). Preying Mantis is a complete style with many branches and within "Preying mantis" are different forms.

If SD wants to borrow forms from other styles fine. But give credit to those styles. Don't say that these forms are part of a system that is named after a temple.

Bak Si Lum is southern shaolin, right. Si Lum is the Cantonese pronouciation of the mandarian shaolin. Hua chuan that is taught in SD isn't the flower fist but the hua mountain fist, a nothern long-fist form.

Here's what I believe: Many teachers taugth many styles in Indonesia with Ie Chang Ming being recognized as the lead instructor. He claimed lineage to Su Kong (whether true or not). Several forms from many divergent styles were taught. Whether these styles originated in a shaolin temple or were incorporated into a shoalin temple later--they have a shaolin connection. Hence the art that is taught in the U.S. is a patchwork of chinese forms with a connection with the temple that have taken on its own unique flavor. It is its own animal. Maybe it deserves its own designation. It is kung fu and it is different than kung fu. It has styles and techniques that are only found in kung fu, but it is recognizable as flavored differently. So what is it? As offensive as it may be, I will still say kung fu. How many styles of CMA were derived from another and modified to the point that they are divergently different from the styles that composed it? Are those styles not still kung fu even if unrecognizable to the people that practice the root style?

To go back to the Bruce Lee example, he modified wing chun and added elements from other arts. Is JKD a style of kung fu or something else?

[Judge Pen]

"That makes SD its own unique animal, but I still maintain that its origins are chinese, not japanese, korean or indonesian."

Doesn't this get tiring after a while? Having an ORIGIN isn't the same thing as BEING the same thing.

My origins are from my mother and father. I have traits from both..but you don't see me saying "I AM my father(or mother)."

Nah, this is fun! Ultimately all martial arts is an evolution into something else. It amuses me at how a name or the trappings can anger people so much when I dare say that their MA probably would be unrecognizable to people 250 years ago who supposedly did the same stuff.

[Judge Pen]

Isn't this put to rest yet?

As long as new people come along and stumble across threads like this, this matter will be hashed over again and again.

How are things going? I keep meaning to get down and check out R. Clear's school close to me.

[MasterKiller]

I will say that the drunk guy was very very good. I have trouble seeing how his techniques, such as the 360 degree front sweep that I've only seen done that way in other chinese styles, doesn't look CMA enough.

Because he looks like a Karate guy imitating Kung Fu.

[Lamassu]

Because he looks like a Karate guy imitating Kung Fu.

In what way? :confused: What are the details that Master Grooms is lacking in order for his 360 sweep to look like a kung fu guy doing a kung fu move instead of a karate guy doing a kung fu move? And please give me more than merely the fact he's wearing a gi.

[Fu-Pow]

I haven't chimed in on this thread other than to say "Yeah Shaolin-Do suck" every couple years or so".....just to be a smart ass.

But one thing I'd like to point out having read the last couple pages of messages is that Shaolin-Do wouldn't have so many problems if it didn't emphasize forms so much.

One poster noted that if a technique works then why should we care if its CMA or JMA or MMA or whatever?

I totally agree and I'll take it one step further.....

Why are forms so important to SD at all? I think the forms are what get SD "in trouble" with other forms-based schools. The execution of the forms is more like JMA than CMA. Looking across other schools and styles its quite obvious.

But my point is....so what? The forms aren't that important anyways. SD, like any other style of CMA/JMA would do better by abandoning forms almost entirely and concentrating on conditioning, drills, competitive drills and competitive sparring formats.

Let it evolve into something new that's beyond national distinctions.

Do you see my point?

[Judge Pen]

Fu Pow,

That's a criticism that can be carried over to many styles like CLf, p. Mantis, BSL, wah lum etc. (styles with several forms). But as each would say, forms have a tradition in their style. It provides structure and an aestic that has value to the people that chose to participate in these styles.

I have a handful of forms that I focus on and the rest, I keep up well enough to stay current in my style and my rank in that style. To me the rank or the number of forms doesn't mean that much, really, but that's not the case with everyone.

The fact is people enjoy forms. I confess, I like weapon forms for the simple fact that they are cool to see a rack full of weapons and know a form with each that you can play around with. You don't have to do them to get into shape or to be a fighter, but if they keep people interested in the style and keep people in shape and improving their own selfs (for self-defense or whatever) then its a good thing.

[MasterKiller]

Fu-Pow,
You can keep your forms and still fight. I maintain my handsets at home and train MMA/submission wrestling/San Shou at class.

You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but if your practice time gets pressed, forms should be the first thing to go...

If you want to be a fighter, that is.

[Judge Pen]

Fu-Pow,
You can keep your forms and still fight. I maintain my handsets at home and train MMA/submission wrestling/San Shou at class.

You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but if your practice time gets pressed, forms should be the first thing to go...

If you want to be a fighter, that is.

You still keep up with your Monk's Spade as well?

[Chain Whip]

chi is not a parlor trick. There are some things that some sifus do which is not a real fair demonstration of chi--but trust me...it exists.

One, I don't trust you. Two, I never said chi didn't exist. I just said their demos were not demonstrations of chi. Simple basic physics explains all the tricks and most anyone could do the same things.

--

On another note the guy doing the Flexible Immortal is one of Master Grooms' students. The guy in form (Steve Wieck) is about 6'5" tall -- Master Grooms is about 5'8"

[Chain Whip]

The time spent in Indonesia seems to have changed the way your people execute Chinese forms, which is why people tell you it's not CMA, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

[Judge Pen]

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

I don't think the forms stayed in stasis. I think they continue to change and evolve despite the best intentions to keep them consistent.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

Um, my kung fu left China in the 1940s.

[MasterKiller]

You still keep up with your Monk's Spade as well?

I play around with the rope dart now and then, but for the most part I don't have enough time to maintain all my weapons forms.

When I'm too old to fight I'll go back to them, which shouldn't be too far away. :D

[BlueTravesty]

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

I've always loved this theory. All those teachers fleeing communist china and teaching in hong kong, taiwan and the US were all "secret commies"

That's almost as good as Gabriel Chin's "Chen Style Tai Chi is a communist hoax" theory.

[WhiteEarp]

Good point. And correct.
Most masters fled china because of the (proven) witchhunt.
Communists are materialistic. So there is no space for "chi" and special "herbs".

But at one point they found out they lost a lot of tradition through this. So Wushu, a competition form was born.

And now some 30/40 odd years from the first wushu forms they want more traditional Kung Fu again because foreigners are taking a walk with them.

Why would so many foreigners would know kung fu, only one explanation. That a lot of masters migrated out of that communist hole.
Most traditional masters in those days could be found in Vietnam, Taiwan,Hong Kong, Indonesia or Thailland.(some mongolia)
It is no myth it is fact. Just search the internet on Chinese imigrants after WWII.

[sunfist]

Anyway, (okinawa) Karate is derived from White Crane.
I once saw a Sensei in Ishin Ryu(mix of sports and traditional karate)perform a form for me and my brother. And i recognized some of the techniques.

But i can see that the late grandmasters didn't tell everything to the japanese.
Some techniques they performed in their form are just plain "wrong" according to my teacher.

So when you see someone with a legitimate karate lineage perform a technique, which your shaolin do master does differently, your immediate conclusion is the karate guy is 'wrong'.

****ing brilliant.

[synack]

I said before I wouldn't address the lineage argument. But reading through this thread... I now want to address it.

Here's my take:

Do I think the lineage is bull****? Yes and No

Yes, I think Ie knew Kung fu and yes I think GM Sin knows Kung Fu. Do I think there was a legendary hairy monk? No, But that doesn't make it not Kung Fu. It does however make you wonder where the Kung Fu came from.

Also I'd like to add that I think it is unfortunate that GM Sin knows these questions are constantly surrounding his school. Yet he leaves his students to answer what they cannot. If I ever have the chance to speak with him and the subject of his school comes up. I will ask about the lineage and explain what his students are having to defend. (something by which he brought out in the open and only he can prove). It takes a lack of due care to put your students in that place (IMHO). I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

Do I like Shao-lin Tao? Yes, and I do not think it's Karate (I know ppl who have taken Karate). But, I do think people are rushed through forms way too much. I do work on everything I learn in my free time, usually at the gym when I'm not running or lifting.

But to conclude, only GM Sin or Hiang can answer any of this. And I think there are reasons that they aren't (either it isn't provable or it's a fabrication).

[WhiteEarp]

So when you see someone with a legitimate karate lineage perform a technique, which your shaolin do master does differently, your immediate conclusion is the karate guy is 'wrong'.

****ing brilliant.

No And i'm not shaolin-do, there are no shaolin-do schools in holland.
Anyway. I do Choy Li Fut , yang style tai chi and hou quan, if you read some of my posts you would know this.:rolleyes:

Anyway, example: a kick with the knifeedge of your foot against the knee. Now, a karate practicioner first liftshis foot up turns his hip in and then kicks to the knee.

This is the karate way.;)

Now the kung fu way. you keep your hip and body still and lift your foot up and kick with the knifeedge and imediatly put your feet back.
Cost less time. you don't use your hip and the oponent has more difficulty detecting your move. Were if a karateka would kick him "the karate way" he would imediately see him turn his waste/hip etc.

Now those are the little secrets the masters didn't tell the japanese! So in a "kung fu way" i would consider this wrong.

But in a general martial arts way there is one rule: there are no "wrong styles" it depends solely on the practicioner. So you've must have understood me wrong.
i love to watch okinawa karate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbiN5IerC00 just much as i love to watch contemporary shaolin monks or MMA fights.

[MasterKiller]

Also I'd like to add that I think it is unfortunate that GM Sin knows these questions are constantly surrounding his school. Yet he leaves his students to answer what they cannot. If I ever have the chance to speak with him and the subject of his school comes up. I will ask about the lineage and explain what his students are having to defend. (something by which he brought out in the open and only he can prove). It takes a lack of due care to put your students in that place (IMHO). I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

I don't think Sin is necessarily the driving force behind the aggressive "Shaolin" marketing campaign. More like Bill Leonard and the SDA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

From my "limited" experience, the little I have seen looks like "karatefied kung fu".

Kind of crappy too.

[Baqualin]

I don't think Sin is necessarily the driving force behind the aggressive "Shaolin" marketing campaign. More like Bill Leonard and the SDA.

MK,
That statement makes absolutely no sense what so ever.:confused:
BQ

[Baqualin]

No And i'm not shaolin-do, there are no shaolin-do schools in holland.
Anyway. I do Choy Li Fut , yang style tai chi and hou quan, if you read some of my posts you would know this.:rolleyes:

Anyway, example: a kick with the knifeedge of your foot against the knee. Now, a karate practicioner first liftshis foot up turns his hip in and then kicks to the knee.

This is the karate way.;)

Now the kung fu way. you keep your hip and body still and lift your foot up and kick with the knifeedge and imediatly put your feet back.
Cost less time. you don't use your hip and the oponent has more difficulty detecting your move. Were if a karateka would kick him "the karate way" he would imediately see him turn his waste/hip etc.

Now those are the little secrets the masters didn't tell the japanese! So in a "kung fu way" i would consider this wrong.

But in a general martial arts way there is one rule: there are no "wrong styles" it depends solely on the practicioner. So you've must have understood me wrong.
i love to watch okinawa karate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbiN5IerC00 just much as i love to watch contemporary shaolin monks or MMA fights.

And while we're sorting through the BS on here your teacher was never a student of GM Ie.:eek:
BQ

[Judge Pen]

So when you see someone with a legitimate karate lineage perform a technique, which your shaolin do master does differently, your immediate conclusion is the karate guy is 'wrong'.

****ing brilliant.

White Earp doesn't do shaolin do, but he says that his teacher did train with Master Ie for a period of time in Indonesia. So don't lump SD in with him or him in with SD.

[Judge Pen]

I said before I wouldn't address the lineage argument. But reading through this thread... I now want to address it.

Here's my take:

Do I think the lineage is bull****? Yes and No

Yes, I think Ie knew Kung fu and yes I think GM Sin knows Kung Fu. Do I think there was a legendary hairy monk? No, But that doesn't make it not Kung Fu. It does however make you wonder where the Kung Fu came from.

Also I'd like to add that I think it is unfortunate that GM Sin knows these questions are constantly surrounding his school. Yet he leaves his students to answer what they cannot. If I ever have the chance to speak with him and the subject of his school comes up. I will ask about the lineage and explain what his students are having to defend. (something by which he brought out in the open and only he can prove). It takes a lack of due care to put your students in that place (IMHO). I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

Do I like Shao-lin Tao? Yes, and I do not think it's Karate (I know ppl who have taken Karate). But, I do think people are rushed through forms way too much. I do work on everything I learn in my free time, usually at the gym when I'm not running or lifting.

But to conclude, only GM Sin or Hiang can answer any of this. And I think there are reasons that they aren't (either it isn't provable or it's a fabrication).

The thing is, Master Sin can't prove it either. Really, we know that there were more than one teacher in Indonesia and each of them taught their own stuff. Neither Master Hiang or GM The knew Su Kong Tai Djian; he reportedly died before either of them were born. If they were told about him, it would have to be from Ie and/or the other teachers there. Of course they would believe their teacher (or if they didn't I doubt they would have openly questioned him out of respect). So all the information they would have on Su Kong would be hearsay as well.

Ultimately whether Su Kong existed or didn't (in whatever capacity) is a little importance to me. There is no verifiable third-party accounts of Su Kong (although part of me would love for something like that to turn up--just to shake things up a bit). I do believe in GM The' and my teachers' ability and I think SD is a very good art. I've crossed hands with many people from differnt styles and backgrounds and, in those moments, arguments of lineage and flavor of forms seemed less important than the techniques that we were using at the time. I think that the people that I've crossed hands with came out of the encounter respecting me and what my teachers taught as I did with them and their teachers. I'm always willing to a friendly sparring session as that is what builds respect for each other and different styles. Isn't that what it should be about?

[Baqualin]

White Earp doesn't do shaolin do, but he says that his teacher did train with Master Ie for a period of time in Indonesia. So don't lump SD in with him or him in with SD.

JP,
If I ever need a Lawyer I'm calling you...your the most rational person on here. Hope all is well with the kids.
BQ:)

[Baqualin]

The thing is, Master Sin can't prove it either. Really, we know that there were more than one teacher in Indonesia and each of them taught their own stuff. Neither Master Hiang or GM The knew Su Kong Tai Djian. If they were told about him, it would have to be from Ie and/or the other teachers there. Of course they would believe their teacher (or if they did n't I doubt they would have openly questioned him out of respect). So all the information they would have on Su Kong would be hearsay as well.

DITTO:D
BQ

[Judge Pen]

I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

synack,

I appreciate your willingness to come on here and participate in this merry-go-round of a dialogue. But if you're a student of Master Grooms then you are under Master Sin. Who do you think taught him? If you're happy with the art and what it is teaching you then don't get caught up in the lineage arguments, because trust me, it is not limited to SD. MANY major styles have spent countless hours arguing over legitmacy and lineage. Look at Wing Chun and the arguments over who was taught what by Yip Man. Heck there are branches of CLF who claim lineage to a "green grass" monk that is openly challenged by other branches of CLF and, in those circles, is just as controversial as Su Kong. Anything that claims lineage to "the Southern Temple" is going to have controversy in its lineage.

Do your kung fu (or whatever people want to call SD) and be happy.

[Baqualin]

Legends just legends.....all martial arts have their legends & lineage problems.
One thing I have noticed is that everytime someone meets GM Sin in person they always get real humble and very respectful....they may go back to their BS later but not to his face.:cool:
BQ

[Baqualin]

Originally Posted by synack
I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

I think you owe M. Grooms an apology.:(
BQ

[Judge Pen]

from another thread, but I thought it related to one of the petty debates here:


On another note, as "Tao" and "Do" are the same character (in two different dialects), the title annoys me to no end

Tao of Jeet Kune Do

"way of jeet kune way?"

way of jeet kune way of jeet kune way of jeet kune way....

[MasterKiller]

(in two different dialects)

. . . . . .

[Erasmus Mingatt]

You bring up several good points which I'd like to comment on.



"Do I think the lineage is bull****? Yes and No"

I believe Sin Kwang The probably did learn some form of martial arts from Ie Ching whatever his name is(it's in the morning and my retention of Chinese names is not good at this hour). Do I think there was a man with a rare disorder causing hair to grow over his face who learned kung fu? (Shrugs shoulders). I don't know. Do I think that said monk was "Grandmaster of the Shaolin temple". No. If for no other reason than the fact that BOTH temples(h-ll even the E-Mei and Wu-Tang temples) have never had a single individual who held the term "grandmaster". SD People can defend this claim all you want in the name of "well not everything has an unbroken written history,etc." as much as you want. The Shaolin temple didn't go from having no GM for centuries and thousands of yeas and **just coincidentally** in some time that may not have been accounted for..just all of a sudden decided to give someone the title just for a 'trial run". It does not work that way guys..


"Also I'd like to add that I think it is unfortunate that GM Sin knows these questions are constantly surrounding his school. Yet he leaves his students to answer what they cannot."


I'd have no problem whatsoever asking him these questions! I wouldn't resort to name calling..but it would be interesting to hear his answer. One rule of thumb I go by is to not go by heresay and small talk and go "straight to the horses mouth". In this case..the horse in question is the written history of Shaolin corroborated by what actual Shaolin monks(both past and present) say about what happened. And if noone has ever mentioned that there was a "grandmaster", that Shaolin is a "system", that it contains "900 forms" and other malapropisms and factual innacuracies..I just can't in all good concscience believe it! It's like using terminology in any branch of Protestant Christianity that is germane and unique ONLY to Protestantism and then applying it to the Catholic Church..when the Catholic Church never uses those concepts.


"It takes a lack of due care to put your students in that place (IMHO). " Quite right. It also shows a disparity between words and actions(lack of integrity).

I'm not saying every style of kung fu on earth has every aspect of lineage written down..but to reiterate(yet again)..you don't see and art like Ninjitsu say things like "Here in Togakure-Ryu Ninjitsu we proudly carry on the history and tradition of being pacifists..where Sifu(a CHINESE term for instructor..not Japanese) Sin instills the principles of pacifism and a committment to gentle ways among the ninja trainees". Why do I make such a statement? 1. Ninjas were TRAINED ASSASSINS..they were anything but peaceful 2. It's analagous to what SD is saying about claims referring to the Shaolin temple and kung fu styles emanating from it.

[synack]

Originally Posted by synack
I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

I think you owe M. Grooms an apology.:(
BQ

I don't think I need to apologize to anyone. I like the art and the school. I don't like the tall tales. I know M. Grooms was a student of Sin. I know he probably likes him and respects him. But because he does and believes what he says. Doesn't mean that I have to or even justify what I believe or apologize for having an unpopular opinion.

Go to Sin's site and look through his bio... he talks about being attacked by six guys with knives and .... at first he is just "playing around" with them. Until he gets stabbed by a poison knife. So he takes care of everyone and goes home to get a secret antidote. I choose not to believe what he says because it's always "out there." And really for no reason but to keep this mysterious kung fu movie aura around himself.

It should be an honor for someone to want to learn from you. (edited here for better clarity)

This is why I didn't originally want to address the lineage because I have an unpopular view on it. AND I am a student of the school.

[Baqualin]

I don't think I need to apologize to anyone. I like the art and the school. I don't like the tall tales. I know M. Grooms was a student of Sin. I know he probably likes him and respects him. Go to Sin's site and look through his bio...
It should be an honor for someone to want to learn from you. As well as someone wanting you to teach them.

This is why I didn't originally want to address the lineage because I have an unpopular view on it. AND I am a student of the school.


I don't have to go to Sin's site, GMS was my teacher from 1974 till he moved to Ca. & I also took a few specialty classes from Hiang...EML is my teacher now & I also help teach the internal classes and you young man have no clue....there's no story you can tell me that I haven't already heard and I've seen things you will never see (all way before the movie sh!t)....it's an honor to have GMS as a teacher an a friend...everybody questions things & there's nothing wrong with that....it's all in the way you present yourself....JP is the closest to my beliefs on this forum & the only one that makes any sense. Go talk to shaolin wookie, Bruce or Mike Reid......oh, by the way M. Grooms is still a student of GMS, not was

[synack]

I don't have to go to Sin's site, GMS was my teacher from 1974 till he moved to Ca. & I also took a few specialty classes from Hiang...EML is my teacher now & I also help teach the internal classes and you young man have no clue....there's no story you can tell me that I haven't already heard and I've seen things you will never see (all before the movie sh!t)....it's an honor to have GMS as a teacher an a friend...everybody questions things & there's nothing wrong with that....it's all in the way you present yourself....JP is the closest to my beliefs on this forum & the only one that makes any sense. Go talk to shaolin wookie, Bruce or Mike Reid......oh, by the way M. Grooms is still a student of GMS, not was


There are things you've seen that I may never see? For instance?

What movie ****? I was referring to the way he presents himself to the public. Using an analogy.

If you've heard it all before then why such a knee jerk reaction?

[Judge Pen]

It should be an honor for someone to want to learn from you. (edited here for better clarity)


Every time I see Master The and have the chance to speak to him, he acts as if its his honor to have me as a student. He acts that way to all of his students. All the tall tales and website quotes aside, he is very down to earth and humble in person. I can forgive him for not caring about a petty internet dialogue over things that he really can't prove himself.

But don't take my word for it. Talk to your teachers about your thoughts.

[Baqualin]

There are things you've seen that I may never see? For instance?
GMS, his brother and other top masters in their prime and in action.


What movie ****? I was referring to the way he presents himself to the public. Using an analogy.

RE: And really for no reason but to keep this mysterious kung fu movie aura around himself.




If you've heard it all before then why such a knee jerk reaction?

Cause I feel you have presented yourself in a disrespectful way to M. Grooms & GMS ( Whom from your post you have never met) you can't give any credit to M. Grooms with out giving credit to GMS...everything he teaches you came from GMS....meet him & talk to him before you write him off.....Shaolin Wookie went through something similar....talk to him.
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

Synack==I'm the highest ranking brown belt at the Marietta school--Morgan.

Believe me, dude, if you think SD is an isolated case, go check out some of the other local schools. There's a dude in Smyrna who trains his WC students like they're military recruits. Their uniforms are military fatigues and berets, and they practice rapelling, and their teacher says he basically was a renegade crime fighter in his hometown. You have to interview to become a student. They're good, no doubt, but they're eccentric as all hell. NEvertheless, behind all that, they're regular guys who train hard and are good at what they do.

Case closed.

There are eccentric personalities throughout all of chinese martial arts. I've found very few down-to-earth guys, at least in my terms. One of the few exceptions are the guys at CSC. Trust me, you've got at least 5 sifus of excellent calibre. Master REid's the best teacher I've seen yet, though he probably wouldn't admit he was. I was taking Longfist from a wushu coach who explicated the deadly techniques of Shaolin Ch'uan, but when I asked if they practiced them in sparring, he said: "What? You mean fight? No...no...no...no...."...and it showed. But they had excellent form.

The stories are a part of the history of the art. But how often in class have you ever even heard them told, except by roundabout circumstance? Never. You read them in a book you don't have to buy, or you hear them ragged on here on this forum. CSC doesn't deny it, nor does SD. They don't hide it. But it isn't really a part of your practice, is it?

Do your forms. Practice your technique. Practice your applications. The rest is just tales and tradition, and every art has 'em. There's not a single school in Atlanta that I have not heard ragged on by another lineage. H. Poo Yee's southern mantis in Atlanta has feuds with another classmate's lineage, sometimes bitterly, calling each other false. The Eagle Claw school in ATL is billed as nothing more than wushu, but a session with those cats proved they had some BA mofos in class. Hell, my capoeira school (not quite billed as a deadly martial art) has some fighters in it that would clean the floor with plenty of guys on here [it helps the teacher was a boxer, and now has a former NHB BJJ fighter at school.]

Whether or not GM The' fought off six dudes with poisoned knives isn't going to help me block a punch. But the techs he taught will. Take the stories for entertainment. IF you're not entertained, then you'll just have to find a teacher with more far out stories, and there are quite a few within traveling distance. I can give you directions to them.:D Personally, I've decided I'd rather have a dude with a few stories tucked under his sleeve than some guy with none.

Anyways, train hard, train a lot. The stories don't mean much, except where it concerns the irrelevant traditions of the art. I didn't sign up to learn the stories of Shaolin Do, and I didn't agree to any clause that I had to believe the stories. If someone decides to rag on your lineage, and calls you a fake, offer to show 'em just how fake your art is. The meat of the art is its forms and techs. The stories are parsley.

And I only eat parsley when I'm out with my girlfriend and she double-dog dares me.

[synack]

Cause I feel you have presented yourself in a disrespectful way to M. Grooms & GMS ( Whom from your post you have never met) you can't give any credit to M. Grooms with out giving credit to GMS...everything he teaches you came from GMS....meet him & talk to him before you write him off.....Shaolin Wookie went through something similar....talk to him.
BQ

I didn't disrespect GMS by saying I think the tall tales are tall tales. They are of course... his stories. How am I being disrespectful?

I do credit GMS with teaching M Grooms but I have yet to see tall tales tied to M Grooms directly.

So I give him a slightly higher level of personal respect.

[synack]

@Shaolin Wookie

I do train and practice and I love the art. No question. But to say that because other schools in the area are equally "shady" in their lineage is no excuse for the cloudiness of our own.

But to say the questions should be ignored or to call someone disrespectful is just a way of sidestepping the question.

When someone questions something, it is always easier to attack the person questioning than the actual question. By calling them "disrespectful" or in the case of dissent to your government "unpatriotic" and on and on.

[Baqualin]

I didn't disrespect GMS by saying I think the tall tales are tall tales. They are of course... his stories. How am I being disrespectful?

I do credit GMS with teaching M Grooms but I have yet to see tall tales tied to M Grooms directly.

So I give him a slightly higher level of personal respect.

In the way you worded your statements by not reconizing M. Grooms Teacher....he is guilty before proven. All styles have their stories....but the stories directly related to GMS may not be as far fetched as you believe.....Su Kong is one thing, but I have seen with my own eyes & felt what GMS is capable of....this is what I meant by things you will never see...not mystical stuff but pure power, speed, and athletisism and at 64 he's still very impressive.
As I said you have some really good people in Atlanta go talk to them & meet GMS...he's a very unique indiviual....extremist sometimes.....but he is the real deal.
Good Luck,
BQ

[brucereiter]

Cause I feel you have presented yourself in a disrespectful way to M. Grooms & GMS ( Whom from your post you have never met) you can't give any credit to M. Grooms with out giving credit to GMS...everything he teaches you came from GMS....meet him & talk to him before you write him off.....Shaolin Wookie went through something similar....talk to him.
BQ

hi ya'all,

sr master grooms should be respected for the hard work he has put into practicing and teaching what grandmaster sin the' has taught him. i feel fortunate to be a student of sr master grooms who is a direct student of sin kwang the'.

master grooms has allowed me the freedom to think for myself and find out what works for me. the biggest thing he has taught me is how to think for myself, learn and how to teach myself. on the several occasions i have had to speak with sin the' i have found him to be very humble and kind.

i think it would be more interesting for us to talk about the content and usage of our style and also to discuss where each of us are in our training and understanding instead of bickering about the same old stuff ...

bruce

[synack]

I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone. I thought I had a legitimate question. If you feel I disrespected M Grooms or GMS by claiming to be under M Grooms instead, I'll apologize for that now. But it doesn't change how I view M Grooms and GMS's statements and it also doesn't nullify my questioning of GMS.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the school and the material. But I do think there is room for improvement on GMS's part especially on clarification of his lineage.

Personally, I tend to respect a more humble attitude. So telling stories about beating up 6 guys with poison knives and having a secret antidote and also claiming the GM of all of China's Shaolin temples seems very far fetched to me. It's just my opinion. I'd like clarification. Knowing this... I still choose to learn under his students. That should say something about his skill and the skill of the people I train with at the CSC's.

I think what I'm asking isn't disrespectful at all....but since you know GMS, I can see how you think it came off that way.

Ask him for clarification and we won't have to debate on a thread called "Is Shaolin-do for real" for 300 something pages.

peace,
synack

[Judge Pen]

I didn't disrespect GMS by saying I think the tall tales are tall tales. They are of course... his stories. How am I being disrespectful?

I do credit GMS with teaching M Grooms but I have yet to see tall tales tied to M Grooms directly.

So I give him a slightly higher level of personal respect.

If you'll notice, baqualin, shaolin wookie and myself all think that these are legends or tall tales also. But we still have a level of respect for our teacher's teacher. That is the difference.

[synack]

I see what you're saying. But how do you give a higher level of respect to someone who is your teacher's teacher.

When

1. a student should (IMO) almost always exceed his teacher in skill

and

2. the teacher's teacher isn't as humble in his public statements nor forthright?

Let's also not forget that this is a business and there is money changing hands. M Grooms from what I've read and seen of him has done nothing for me to question him. GMaster Sin The on the other hand has a lot of tall tales. I know you can simply discard them and keep a high level of respect. But for me, it's much more difficult.

As the old saying goes... Loose lips sink ships.

[synack]

But like I said earlier, this lineage argument will go nowhere. Bringing it up only causes conflict.

I said my apologies and I'll drop it if you agree to drop it. Otherwise we can go another 300 something pages.

I enjoy the school and the art. I'm just not the type of person who believes in the "mysterious" and not the type of person who lets unchecked statements go unnoticed. That's not to say I challenge everything under the sun (quite the contrary). I'm a peaceful person. But when money changes hands, things tend to get personal.

We've both said what we had to say.

Again peace to everyone SD or not,
synack

[Golden Tiger]

I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin.


I know M. Grooms was a student of Sin.


I was referring to the way [GMS] presents himself to the public.


I do credit GMS with teaching M Grooms but I have yet to see tall tales tied to M Grooms directly.

So I give him a slightly higher level of personal respect.



:rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

In answer to your question regarding respecting your teacher's teacher, try this:

In any occasion you see M. Grooms and GM Sin standing together, walk up and introduce yourself, then bow to M. Grooms with a traditional, formal, down-on-the knees bow, then get up and slightly incline your head towards GM Sin, and say: "'sup, dude?"

How do you think M. Grooms would feel about that? He'd be friggin' insulted, at the very least.

I've heard M. Grooms, and many senior students, are very protective of GM Sin. It isn't because he's under attack by ninjas, or anything. They just respect the hell out of him, as their teacher. IF you respect M. Grooms, you should respect his respects.

From a cynical perspective, if you have to take it....I prefer the skeptical....you ought to respect GM Sin for several reasons:

1. As you said: the system has merit, martially.
2. Without him, there wouldn't be said system.
3. Without him, there wouldn't be Shaolin-Do.
4. Without SD, there wouldn't be CSC.
5. Without him, there wouldn't be M. Grooms.
6. Without him, there wouldn't be you (martially).

[Shaolin Wookie]

If GM Sin seems a bit strange, or odd, that's just your character judgement. I know this: he has trained his entire life with far greater dedication and regularity than I, came from a poorer country and got a fine education at a great university, which is ranked higher than mine nationally, in a much more difficult major (from my perspective), and has run a very successful martial arts system (nationally), and from what I hear, it's hard enough for most people to just keep one school open.

I think he's a little eccentric, true. And I heard him give one or two lectures, stating many points I disagreed with. Sure, he still wants to write/make/be in a movie.

But hell, I know people far stranger than that. Take my girlfriend, for instance....:D

[synack]

If you call Su Kong under your own logic a "Tall Tale" you are also insulting GM Sin and Ie. The logic is just a way to discredit the messenger and not the message.

What does it matter what my opinion is of GM Sin? My opinions are formed by what I've read of his own statements thus far. If he changes that, then so be it. If he doesn't then he doesn't. I'll still like the art.

I don't see how this is a big deal at all. If they were standing together, I would bow to both of them. This can be put directly to government too... I can respect the Congress (I don't) and still not respect the President. Or even say that I respect and like the constitution and not our elected representatives for their own public statements. I'd still shake their hand if I met them but I don't have to like their policies or statements.

[Shaolin Wookie]

GM The's exact, word for word answer on Snake Training.

"Yes, I learned the Snake Form, which is the highest form in our art. The idea is that when you are attacked you do not block the blows with your hands or feet. You move and twist your body out of thw way, like a snake being attacked by an eagle. This leaves your hands and feet free free to counterattack. Master Ie would tie my hands and feet and throw me a lake or sometimes a river. I would have to swim by wriggling my body like a snake."

No mention of pec muscles at all. Swimming like this isn't easy, but probably any decent swimmer could do it in a short amount time.

On the sand burn story GM The' never said he melted a baby. He said his original teacher killed his own baby accidently. His exact words - referring to his teacher was: " .....And he picked it up...and he burned it with his hands...and it died."

My sister was a swimmer. Anyone here ever tried Butterfly stroke? The arms are only thrown for momentum. You have to coordinate the entire body and swim like a dolphin. I've never been abled to do it. I just throw my arms, and end up looking like a drowning victim. She friggin' flies.

Anyways, sweet vid posts, CW.

[Shaolin Wookie]

If you call Su Kong under your own logic a "Tall Tale" you are also insulting GM Sin and Ie. The logic is just a way to discredit the messenger and not the message.

What does it matter what my opinion is of GM Sin? My opinions are formed by what I've read of his own statements thus far. If he changes that, then so be it. If he doesn't then he doesn't. I'll still like the art.

I don't see how this is a big deal at all. If they were standing together, I would bow to both of them. This can be put directly to government too... I can respect the Congress (I don't) and still not respect the President. Or even say that I respect and like the constitution and not our elected representatives for their own public statements. I'd still shake their hand if I met them but I don't have to like their policies or statements.

Then what's your issue?

[synack]

I have no issue. Someone said I disrespected M Grooms and GM Sin. I was responding to the accusation. I was also pointing out why I had the opinion that I have of GM Sin. Because of his own words.


Shaolin Wookie - your next post is going to be evil (666)

[Shaolin Wookie]

but what you wear is generally an indicator of what you are taught.

So what is traditional garb? I've been to at least 10 CMA schools in Atlanta. Some wore silk pajamas. My longfist school was whatever you were wearing at the moment: my first day I was wearing my work uniform...hahaha....(so was I learning how to do my job (law enforcement admin.) at a CMA school?)hahaha......some wore track unifroms, one was wearing military fatigues, another wearing gi's (because they're tougher and stronger...note: it wasn't SD), one with sweatpants.......

hahaha.......and why do you think BJJ schools have no-gi classes?





Again..what's your point? I don't get it!!! You are not going to see Taoist/Buddhist monks being impolite to anyone.

Monks are pacifists.


Read American Shaolin by Matt Polly. They were impolite to many people, and they got in plenty of fights, sometimes over trivial stuff.

But generally, they were just nice guys who tried not to **** off the communist party members that oversaw the running of the temple. And they were verty touchy on the issue of Buddhism and Taoism, because they didn't practice it religiously (figuratively and literally).

BTW......before immense popluarity of the movie Shaolin Temple, there were only like two monks living at the temple, for the sake of upkeep. Apparently, they didn't really know much or any kung fu, and Shaolin Chan was pretty much gone.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Shaolin Wookie - your next post is going to be evil (666)

Hahaaha....sometimes when I go to McDonalds and get the #1 combo, large size, with a chocolate dipped ice cream cone--the total comes out to $6.66.

Coincidence, I think not.:D

As for the disrespect issue, I did the same thing awhile back. I didn't mean any disrespect, but I came across that way--as being disrespectful. I saw how that was true, afterwards.

So I understand.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone. I thought I had a legitimate question. If you feel I disrespected M Grooms or GMS by claiming to be under M Grooms instead, I'll apologize for that now. But it doesn't change how I view M Grooms and GMS's statements and it also doesn't nullify my questioning of GMS.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the school and the material. But I do think there is room for improvement on GMS's part especially on clarification of his lineage.

Personally, I tend to respect a more humble attitude. So telling stories about beating up 6 guys with poison knives and having a secret antidote

I've only heard this story in the Shaolin-Do book. Never heard it mentioned anywhere else. I sincerely doubt he tells this story everywhere he goes. I've never heard it in the two lengthy lectures I heard him give (one via video afterwards). I'm sure the makers of the book just really liked that story, plus, they were telling the story of GM Sin--and since, I dare say--his life probably wasn't as action packed as John McLane's, a little action and martial play in the story helps keep you interested, and shows you he can handle himself, and has some kind of handle on Chinese meds.

He seems like a humble guy to me. Just ltwo weeks ago, I was invited by one of my friends, Richie, from that Longfist school I used to go to. He has a cousin staying with him this month who was going to show him an Emei Snake routine , and he knew I really wanted to learn a little snake, so he invited me. I went, and sucked at it (wushu is really friggin' hard), and he's supposed to show us the rest today, if I can make it. I ordered the HElen Liang DVD of it off MartialArtsMart, so I could practice in between lessons. Anyways, we were talking all that evening while learning, and I was relating some of the movements to stuff I'd seen at CSC. They were familiar with the controversies, but were surprised I knew as much about the body mechanics, techniques, applications, etc., that go along with CMA. They started in on meditation and such, and I mentioned some stuff I'd learned about Hou Tien Chi at green sash in the internal division of CSC, and they were surprised I knew about some of that. They said they'd had to spend years in service of their teacher before he was willing to teach this or that technique, this or that meditation technique, or this or that form.

--oops...edit--not meditation, they're not into that.....just the breathing and chi stuff.....

GM The' is humble enough to teach it to those who are willing without demanding anything but hard work and dedication, and standard prices, where martial arts are concerned. As far as I see it, he's one of those humble teachers CMA students are always trying to find, and complain about not having.



and also claiming the GM of all of China's Shaolin temples seems very far fetched to me. It's just my opinion. I'd like clarification.

Happy to oblige. He's never claimed to be Grandmaster of all of China's Shaolin Temples. Neither did GGM Ie, nor did GGGM Su Kong. That's a misinterpretation taken by some outsiders, who read a couple of sensationalized statements, and figure we think we're a part of the Shaolin Temple govt in service today. He's the Grandmaster of the Shaolin-Do system, which draws from the martial knowledge of all the Shaolin temples. But GM SIn has no authority or ranking privelges at any of the Shaolin temples. He is not abbot, nor has he ever claimed to be. When he visited the Henan or Fujien temple, he was a tourist like anyone else. He wore street clothes, somtimes his gi (I've only seen pics), and his ubiquitous fanny pack:D (not poking fun, it's just he needs it 'cuz his gi doesn't have pockets) and probably had a camera, too. Su Kong was not an abbot, nor did he ever claim to be. Su Kong helped run the martial arts activities of the Southern Temple at Fujien as a secular monk (and there were plenty of those in the temples---criminals claiming assylum, and those deemed unfit for religious service [i.e.--not everyone's cut out for chastity, pacifism, and endless meditation---I certainly wouldn't be...hahaha....])



Ask him for clarification and we won't have to debate on a thread called "Is Shaolin-do for real" for 300 something pages.

peace,
synack

He probably doesn't care. He gave what information he had, and as far as I know, he's never changed the story. Some people don't like it, so they bicker. What can he offer that will end the bickering?

Nothing.

If he pulled off this little miracle and proved without a shadow of a doubt that Shaolin-Do was pure shaolin, people would still say: "But it still looks like karate, so it sucks." or "Why are you wearing gi's then?" or "Then why isn't Su Kong listed on the temple records?"

It's the same reason almost every lineage on this forum, and in the chinese martial arts world, is subject to debate.

[synack]

SWookie - Thank you for your response. I don't care about what we wear or don't (frog buttons or shoes) wear. When I read about GM Sin, I got the same impression that he was claiming to be the GM of all Shaolin arts/temples.

Maybe the wording is sensationalized or should be clarified.

As far as the six guys with poison knives is concerned. I read that on his site under his bio. I did a lot of research before joining SD (Tao). And yet I still joined. When I read that it made me roll my eyes and further question the man in charge of the school. If what you say is true, whomever does his writing (if not him). Needs to chill out a bit. Wild statements can bring you business but they can also deter business.

For now, I'm sticking around. I like everyone I've met in SD (even on this board). And yes, even the ones who called me disrespectful. Everyone has a right to their opinion.

Meditation... I practiced some meditation some number of years ago and am now recently back at it. I'm no pro and don't know most of the traditional aspects of it. But I can get to clear and calm state during my practice. The way it makes me feel has caused it to an almost mandatory daily practice.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Marketing is marketing. When you're a part of such a large system as ours, there is going to be lots of marketing, and everything looks bad in marketing unless there's a scantily clad chick in a thong spread out over whatever you're trying to sell.:D Since SD people don't go that route, sometimes there's some sensationalization. No big deal. Most people that come into ATlanta CSC's sometimes have sensationalized notions about kung fu and the system (ususally through movies, and are sometimes disheartened to learn that a properly executed butterfly kick/twist combo won't take out a legion of super-ninjas armed with machetes and samurai swords), and they're quickly stripped of their delusions and illusions.

As much as GM Sin is a legitimate martial artist, he is also a business man. His duty as a martial artist is to maintain the integrity of the system he teaches, to hone his personal skills, and to help teach others so the art survives. If you've ever looked at the schedule he keeps between Shaolin-Do and CSC schools, it seems like hte man basically lives on an airplane. He jets out constantly to teach forms seminars, and personally sees to every black belt given out through the system, both divisions. He is definately dedicated. The black belt stipulation is the most amazing part of his dedication.

He is also a businessman, and as such, has to market, keep people interested with the newest and deadliest technique and style, and represent the best martial art he knows......and what he knows is Shaolin-Do.

But sometimes guys like you or I see one part, and don't really see the other. He's a very busy guy, and I doubt he cares whether some teenagers and internet MA's think his system is bogus, or misrepresentative, or Indonesian Karate-fu.

[MasterKiller]

Happy to oblige. He's never claimed to be Grandmaster of all of China's Shaolin Temples. Neither did GGM Ie, nor did GGGM Su Kong. That's a misinterpretation taken by some outsiders, who read a couple of sensationalized statements, and figure we think we're a part of the Shaolin Temple govt in service today. He's the Grandmaster of the Shaolin-Do system, which draws from the martial knowledge of all the Shaolin temples. But GM SIn has no authority or ranking privelges at any of the Shaolin temples. He is not abbot, nor has he ever claimed to be. When he visited the Henan or Fujien temple, he was a tourist like anyone else. He wore street clothes, somtimes his gi (I've only seen pics), and his ubiquitous fanny pack:D (not poking fun, it's just he needs it 'cuz his gi doesn't have pockets) and probably had a camera, too. Su Kong was not an abbot, nor did he ever claim to be. Su Kong helped run the martial arts activities of the Southern Temple at Fujien as a secular monk (and there were plenty of those in the temples---criminals claiming assylum, and those deemed unfit for religious service [i.e.--not everyone's cut out for chastity, pacifism, and endless meditation---I certainly wouldn't be...hahaha....])

SD students are horribly misinformed about the style's history, and Sin's connection to anything Temple related.

For example, all the bad information about his Steele at Shaolin. Many...MANY.. SD'ers think Shaolin donated it. There are several versions of the story.

1) Shaolin donated it to honor Sin.
2) The Soards only paid because Shaolin couldn't afford the high-quality marble.
3) It's not a steele, but an actual statue of Sin.

Notice, none of them ever come here with the correct story--that the Soards paid $2,000 to have it erected, just like the every other Steele.

That kind of "misinformation" comes from the top. Probably not from Sin himself (at least I hope not), but the Soards have to have had a hand in it.

The movie rumors are just as bad. I've heard dumb @ss statements like the CHinese government was going to fund it.

Before the internet, you could get away with this kind of bullsh1t because people really had no way of knowing unless they traveled and came into contact with other schools. That's not the case anymore.

It's fine if you want to train....but put down the grape Kool-Aid.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"If you call Su Kong under your own logic a "Tall Tale" you are also insulting GM Sin and Ie. The logic is just a way to discredit the messenger and not the message".

Shrugs shoulders. And if people do? There are worse things. While I don't go out of my way to INTENTIONALLY offend others. It's better to say it "like it is" then to be PC too often. As per: discrediting the "messenger" and not the "message"..well..the messenger is a deliverer of the message. You don't have one without the other.

As far as what you said about the monks engaging is disrespectful attitudes etc..I don't know how we got on this topic nor why so much time is being devoted towards it.

"I think it should rest on the shoulders of Sin Kwang The not his students or instructors under him to answer the illogic behind the statements of "Grandmaster of Shaolin", Katas vs. Forms, 900 forms/"learning all of Shaolin" and other factually inaccurate statements. And if the former "grandmaster" who was taught by Su Kong Djin used Karate GIs and called them Katas in Indonesia in order to disguise the art from the Indonesian officials as the website claim, I think it would behoove the style to change it's phraseology and wear to reflect true kung fu. The style has been brought out of Indonesia so it should reflect true traditional characteristics of kung fu.

There would not be a thread almost 400 pages long if what SD claims was reflective of what actually happened in the history of Shaolin. If someone started a thread entitled "Is Choy Li Fut kung fu real"(just for the sake of illustration)..the thread would most likely be less than a page long and someone would reply with "Yes"..end of story!

"Read American Shaolin by Matt Polly."

No thanks. I'll pass. For the same reason..I put the book by Steve DeMasco down after a few pages of reading his "kung fu" training there.

"They were impolite to many people, and they got in plenty of fights, sometimes over trivial stuff."

More tangent time boys and girls.


" And they were verty touchy on the issue of Buddhism and Taoism, because they didn't practice it religiously (figuratively and literally)."

LOL. This is where I scream "BULLS-IT!"!!!

"BTW......before immense popluarity of the movie Shaolin Temple, there were only like two monks living at the temple, for the sake of upkeep."

Again. I can make a claim such as "There were only 3 monks there and most of the time they were knitting sweaters and break dancing". Do you believe everything you read? It seems so!


"Apparently, they didn't really know much or any kung fu, and Shaolin Chan was pretty much gone."

Wu shu as a demonstration sport is a separate issue. Monks are not going to demonstrate kung fu just by a request to a westerner.

[Shaolin Wookie]

SD students are horribly misinformed about the style's history, and Sin's connection to anything Temple related.

For example, all the bad information about his Steele at Shaolin. Many...MANY.. SD'ers think Shaolin donated it. There are several versions of the story.

1) Shaolin donated it to honor Sin.
2) The Soards only paid because Shaolin couldn't afford the high-quality marble.
3) It's not a steele, but an actual statue of Sin.

Notice, none of them ever come here with the correct story--that the Soards paid $2,000 to have it erected, just like the every other Steele.

That kind of "misinformation" comes from the top. Probably not from Sin himself (at least I hope not), but the Soards have to have had a hand in it.

The movie rumors are just as bad. I've heard dumb @ss statements like the CHinese government was going to fund it.

Before the internet, you could get away with this kind of bullsh1t because people really had no way of knowing unless they traveled and came into contact with other schools. That's not the case anymore.

It's fine if you want to train....but put down the grape Kool-Aid.

We're in agreement. The SD book was propagandish. The shaolin steele story was propagated, I think, from Denver. I don't know any senior student that credits that story as being true. I know this from having asked, and reading on this forum, which led to me giving a blistering review on Amazon as a comic-kung fu book (which I took down recently, 'cuz it seemed a little immature and harsh....but there's a reason for that).....hahaha.....:D

More than anything, the authors seemed to have skewed the facts. In their wording, paraphrased "amdist a large celebration", GM Sin was honored with a steele presented by the Shaolin Abbot himself, who almost never comes down to greet his guests.

Probably not. Sure, they might have presented it, but I doubt the monks threw a party. More likely than not, they came down to watch a demo and try to find paying students, then went back to their practice while the SD guys threw a party in celebration of their Master's return.

No big deal. But I don't think it should be romanticized as the hailing of hte absent Grandmaster of all Shaolin Temples.:D And to be honest, I thought that that was what the book was saying the first time I read it.

[dragonf1y]

sometimes there's some sensationalization. No big deal.

Sensationalization?

That's an awful nice way to say LIE.

No big deal?

Are you serious?

Car companys always put out ads that are sensationalized .

Thay also ALWAYS and BY LAW put disclaimers along with those ads.

If they didn't it would be ILLEGAL.


Most people that come into ATlanta CSC's sometimes have sensationalized notions about kung fu and the system (ususally through movies, and are sometimes disheartened to learn that a properly executed butterfly kick/twist combo won't take out a legion of super-ninjas armed with machetes and samurai swords), and they're quickly stripped of their delusions and illusions.

Which is it? You say they are stripped of their dilusions, but aren't you using delsusions (sensationalism) to recruit them in the first place?

Nice double standard.


His duty as a martial artist is to maintain the integrity of the system he teaches.

Integrity? As in truth? Hmmmm...


He is also a businessman, and as such, has to market, keep people interested with the newest and deadliest technique and style, and represent the best martial art he knows......and what he knows is Shaolin-Do.

Which is it? Does he represent what he knows best or market the newest techniques (aka FADS)? Does he market one and teach another? Bait and switch?

Maybe you should step down as an SD internet MA PR guy.

[Shaolin Wookie]

"Read American Shaolin by Matt Polly."

No thanks. I'll pass. For the same reason..I put the book by Steve DeMasco down after a few pages of reading his "kung fu" training there.

Hahaha....you're obviously well informed. Matt trained at a Shaolin Institute under actual monks, and was apprenticed to a very well respected master at Shaolin. Ask Gene.

'nuff said.



"They were impolite to many people, and they got in plenty of fights, sometimes over trivial stuff."

More tangent time boys and girls.

I'm always happy to correct incorrect statments. And I'll laugh every time when the chastened issuer of said statement rebuts with: "But that's not the point...."



" And they were verty touchy on the issue of Buddhism and Taoism, because they didn't practice it religiously (figuratively and literally)."

LOL. This is where I scream "BULLS-IT!"!!!

Well, they didn't practice it, chief. Between teaching the lowai, teaching their private pupils, and putting on shows, they don't have time for the religious aspect; furthermore, the govt. didn't let them. Over the past decade or so, the abbot has instituted a restoration program aimed at rehabilitating the long dormant practices of Shaolin Chan. PM Gene for more info.



"BTW......before immense popluarity of the movie Shaolin Temple, there were only like two monks living at the temple, for the sake of upkeep."


Again. I can make a claim such as "There were only 3 monks there and most of the time they were knitting sweaters and break dancing". Do you believe everything you read? It seems so!

Sorry, Charlie. Seems you've been misinformed. Sad to say, Jet Li and the Hong Kong movie industry was as much the reason Shaolin is thriving today as anything else. The movie created a market, the government funded the restoration of the temple, and paid martial artists to staff the temple and train monks. Shaolin kung fu thrived in Taiwan, in China (off temple grounds), in Japan, in Indonesia, etc. Just not at Shaolin.

Not as romantic as you thought, right? I thought the same thing.



"Apparently, they didn't really know much or any kung fu, and Shaolin Chan was pretty much gone."

Wu shu as a demonstration sport is a separate issue. Monks are not going to demonstrate kung fu just by a request to a westerner.

Of course not. But if you dangle a dollar, they'll teach traditional sets to you with a big smile on their face. 'Sall business, baby.

Here's what a little webfu digs up:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=122

In 1988, the Chinese government erected the Shaolin Wushuguan. This facility was designed to disseminate Shaolin kungfu to the public. It remains the world's largest martial arts training complex. Upon opening, the government requested that the Shaolin monks teach at the Wushuguan and Guolin was one of the first monks to respond. In due course, he was asked to teach full time, but he declined. He told them, "Shaolin Temple is my home." Before this governmental support, Shaolin Temple was in a bad state of disrepair. Opening the Wushuguan was one part of the government's program to increase tourism and finance the restoration Shaolin, but Guolin is careful to point out that Shaolin Temple and the Shaolin Wushuguan are separate entities. Some of the monks have taught there, Guolin included, but now most of the instructors are no longer monks, just martial arts masters and layman discipl

[Shaolin Wookie]

Sensationalization?

That's an awful nice way to say LIE.

No big deal?

Are you serious?

Car companys always put out ads that are sensationalized .

Thay also ALWAYS and BY LAW put disclaimers along with those ads.

If they didn't it would be ILLEGAL.



Which is it? You say they are stripped of their dilusions, but aren't you using delsusions (sensationalism) to recruit them in the first place?

Nice double standard.



Integrity? As in truth? Hmmmm...



Which is it? Does he represent what he knows best or market the newest techniques (aka FADS)? Does he market one and teach another? Bait and switch?

Maybe you should step down as an SD internet MA PR guy.

Go back and read my posts, chief. I laughed my ass of[edit: add an f] reading this. I'm far from a PR guy for the system. I'm the biggest skeptic here.....:D......I train it 'cuz I can use it, it's difficult, and it's fun

Get a clue.

The only advertisement Shaolin Tao (CSC) uses is demos, and school signs. I've never seen anything else. I saw a sign that said Kung-fu/Tai Chi. I said: "Hey, I want to learn kung-fu, and tai chi."

Not quite the Dark Empire you envision.

Meanwhile, I've walked into schools where they cram stories down your throat before you even step onto the practice floor. My first day of SD? Bow when you enter and leave, bow to your teachers, practice sparring tech 1. It was refreshing, b/c I'd talked to two schools that talked my ear off concerning their superiority as a fighting style before I stepped into SD and learned to throw a simple punch.

The only controversy I've seen in-school is whether or not this or that technique can be used in this or that way, how deep of a stance is too deep (answer: when you can't get out of it), and how hard is too hard in sparring. Everyone's too busy training and learning to quibble over this ****. Why do you think we come to this forum? It's the proper venue for *****ing, *****.

[synack]

"If you call Su Kong under your own logic a "Tall Tale" you are also insulting GM Sin and Ie. The logic is just a way to discredit the messenger and not the message".

Shrugs shoulders. And if people do? There are worse things. While I don't go out of my way to INTENTIONALLY offend others. It's better to say it "like it is" then to be PC too often. As per: discrediting the "messenger" and not the "message"..well..the messenger is a deliverer of the message. You don't have one without the other.

As far as what you said about the monks engaging is disrespectful attitudes etc..I don't know how we got on this topic nor why so much time is being devoted towards it.

"I think it should rest on the shoulders of Sin Kwang The not his students or instructors under him to answer the illogic behind the statements of "Grandmaster of Shaolin", Katas vs. Forms, 900 forms/"learning all of Shaolin" and other factually inaccurate statements. And if the former "grandmaster" who was taught by Su Kong Djin used Karate GIs and called them Katas in Indonesia in order to disguise the art from the Indonesian officials as the website claim, I think it would behoove the style to change it's phraseology and wear to reflect true kung fu. The style has been brought out of Indonesia so it should reflect true traditional characteristics of kung fu.

There would not be a thread almost 400 pages long if what SD claims was reflective of what actually happened in the history of Shaolin. If someone started a thread entitled "Is Choy Li Fut kung fu real"(just for the sake of illustration)..the thread would most likely be less than a page long and someone would reply with "Yes"..end of story!

"Read American Shaolin by Matt Polly."

No thanks. I'll pass. For the same reason..I put the book by Steve DeMasco down after a few pages of reading his "kung fu" training there.

"They were impolite to many people, and they got in plenty of fights, sometimes over trivial stuff."

More tangent time boys and girls.


" And they were verty touchy on the issue of Buddhism and Taoism, because they didn't practice it religiously (figuratively and literally)."

LOL. This is where I scream "BULLS-IT!"!!!

"BTW......before immense popluarity of the movie Shaolin Temple, there were only like two monks living at the temple, for the sake of upkeep."

Again. I can make a claim such as "There were only 3 monks there and most of the time they were knitting sweaters and break dancing". Do you believe everything you read? It seems so!


"Apparently, they didn't really know much or any kung fu, and Shaolin Chan was pretty much gone."

Wu shu as a demonstration sport is a separate issue. Monks are not going to demonstrate kung fu just by a request to a westerner.

That was my comment about disrespect because I was accused of it without my questions on Sin's comments being addressed. It was not serious, it was by their logic and was to make a point. I don't believe that myself.

What I meant was the logic used against me to say I disrespected GM Sin and M Grooms by saying I prefer to say I'm under M Grooms and not GM Sin.

If you read my posts, you would see that I hold a different opinion on GM Sin's comments. An unpopular opinion.

For the most part I agree with you. And I'm a Shaolin-Tao student.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"Ask Gene.

'nuff said."

Since you are fond of asking Gene..why don't I return the request? Why not ask Gene about his real thoughts of Shaolin-Do? I'd be interested to hear them. Not what he might only be able to say since he is editor of the magazine..but the "off the record" thoughts.

"I'm always happy to correct incorrect statments. And I'll laugh every time when the chastened issuer of said statement rebuts with: "But that's not the point....""

Sorry to ruin the parade wookie..but I could care less if they got all upset about some arrogant Americans or whatever they tried to "start fights" about. Sin Kwang The has not..to my knowledge addressed the issues that I and others have read about Shao-lin Do making the claims about the Shaolin temple that they do. Which further exacerbates many peoples skepticism. If he fervently believes what he does..he should address those concerns in either kfmagazine or Inside KF--not online--but in an actual issue!!

"Well, they didn't practice it, chief."

I'm not your chief.

"Between teaching the lowai, teaching their private pupils, and putting on shows, they don't have time for the religious aspect; furthermore, the govt. didn't let them."

Let them? In China if the government tells you that you have to be a monk..that's it! You don't have a choice in the matter.

"Over the past decade or so, the abbot has instituted a restoration program aimed at rehabilitating the long dormant practices of Shaolin Chan."

I'm not concerned about what restoration has taken place(though it's interesting to consider). Ask the abbott about Su Kong Djin's claim about being "grandmaster of the temple". Better yet..let Sin Kwang The ask. I'd bet my right gonad that he would refute it!

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Dear Gene,

I apologize if it seems that I was trying to "speak for you" in the above post when I said "ask Gene Ching what he thinks about SD". Perhaps you think it's solid..I can't say.


EM

[DPL]

Dear Gene,
Please don't ban me. Also, please say something negative about Shaolin-Do.

Thanks,
Erasmus

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"Dear Gene,
Please don't ban me."

I have to seem hyper defensive about SD to everyone or my SD teachers wont promote me to the next level. Without adequate a-s kissing I'll stay at this level of a "style" whose history and foundation are "iffy" at best. But if I attack anyone who objectively raises an eyebrow at the claims made by the founders...then I will gain their respect. Instead of taking an honest look at the claims made by the naysayers, and compare it to what is ACTUALLY known about the Shaolin temple..I'll live in a cubby hole forever. Its safer to do this than to realize that some people do not have my best interests at heart.


"Also, please say something negative about Shaolin-Do."


I not only know ALL of Shaolin..but I also know everything that goes thru the minds of others. Especially..I will in my arrogance, assume that EM's sincere apology was something that it was not. I've never met EM but since I know the ultimate self defense system..this qualifies me to make judgements on people whose character and integrity I for all practical purposes..know absolutely nothing about.


Thanks,
DPL

[Judge Pen]

Here's what Gene has posted in the past:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/search.php?searchid=431667

I think he's happy to let well enough alone as long as people disagree respectfully here (and I feel that I can safely make that assumption). Which is an area where this thread is skirting close to given the tone of some of the more recent posts.

BTW, EM, most of us do talk objectively about the history of shaolin and make the comparisons, so I take offense to your reply to DPL's accurate interpretation of your more recent posts. I believe it was you who said that when the attacks turn start to get more personal and insulting to your character, then they must be hitting pretty close to the mark.

[DPL]

"Dear Gene,
Please don't ban me."

I have to seem hyper defensive about SD to everyone or my SD teachers wont promote me to the next level. Without adequate a-s kissing I'll stay at this level of a "style" whose history and foundation are "iffy" at best. But if I attack anyone who objectively raises an eyebrow at the claims made by the founders...then I will gain their respect.



Ever read any of my posts? Except for one early attempt to move this discussion to more constructive subjects, I've stayed pretty much completely out of this one 'cause it always regresses into the mind-bogglingly boring repetitions of years-old arguments that you've been spouting for the last few pages.

But I couldn't resist calling you on that groveling post you just made since it so completely undermined the air of big-man authority you've been projecting in your other posts. :rolleyes:

[BentMonk]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain what "flavor" the drunken form clip was missing. As usual it was the typical "looks like a karate guy trying to do kung fu" comment. Sorry, but I've seen other supposedly "legit" TCMA vids that made that drunken form look like a TCMA forms champ. So other than it's a SD guy doing the form, what "flavor" are you guys looking for?

[Judge Pen]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain what "flavor" the drunken form clip was missing. As usual it was the typical "looks like a karate guy trying to do kung fu" comment. Sorry, but I've seen other supposedly "legit" TCMA vids that made that drunken form look like a TCMA forms champ. So other than it's a SD guy doing the form, what "flavor" are you guys looking for?

I'll say the guy's flow was a little off (transitions from one technique to another was a bit choppy), but his technique was impeccable and his athleticisms was something to be admired.

[Leto]

this was posted in the thread about the southern shaolin temple, but I find it may be pertinent here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWxDEftPzTo

especially note the guy who does a form at around 1:00, and the old guy who starts at about 2:03. Is this not Chinese martial arts? What style are they doing, and is their "flavor" correct? Are these supposed to be examples of styles that are descended from the southern temple, so are being exhibited at the new temple built there?

Both of them, especially the old guy, have "karate" like elements. Is it because those are from five ancestor fist, which was a major influence in some Okinawan karate styles? five ancestor fist is one of those southern shaolin styles. How come it's flow and flavor isn't the same as the northern shaolin longfist styles?

If the old guy was wearing a gi, would you assume his style was Chinese?

[brucereiter]

interesting observations ... hmmmm ?

[Chain Whip]

This is from the Quangzhou Southern Temple. Not from the one built by the government that does wushu. The demos are what you see there and what you see in the general area. These guys can hit. They look like martial arts guys instead of dancers.

[Chain Whip]

[QUOTE]I'll say the guy's flow was a little off (transitions from one technique to another was a bit choppy), QUOTE]

Master Grooms taught him how to do martial arts. However, Steve learned that form from EM Mullins - hence the transition and choppiness issues-- but that is to expected in the TN forms.

[Judge Pen]

[QUOTE]I'll say the guy's flow was a little off (transitions from one technique to another was a bit choppy), QUOTE]

Master Grooms taught him how to do martial arts. However, Steve learned that form from EM Mullins - hence the transition and choppiness issues-- but that is to expected in the TN forms.

I thought it was more of a personal expression. I don't think TN forms are that choppy, but I might be a bit to close to be objective. As a Tennessean, I do have my kwan dao form out on youtube. Its not great (personal expression issues of my own) but I don't think you could call it choppy.

[brucereiter]

i think the "choppyness" described in the drunken form is just his interpretation of "drunken style" i have seen many variations of this style that express that type of movement.

are there any other "drunken" clips that express the attributes some say are lacking

i do not practice this style so can only comment on it from what i know ...



best,

bruce

[WhiteEarp]

@Baqualin:

A-h. O that's right everything my master taught is fake. I made it all up.
Again baqualin. Ask your master this: Does he know Sifu Tze?
Otherwise known as: Prins Dschero Khan Chen Tao-Tze

Chen Tao-Tze was the name given to a small boy who was taught by the same monks who fled to Mongolia to train with Chewbacca.(excuse me, Sukong) On their way back they took the child and trained him in the art of Lueng Chuen.(in the mean time he watched the monks do excerzises)
He is also known is Sifu Meijers(dutch since he was adopted later by a dutch armyguy name Gerard Karel Meijers. Indonesia was still a dutch colony back then)

Now here's where my master comes in.
Years later after my master trained in Indonesia he returned to holland.
But nobody in Holland taught Kung Fu(yes well there was judo jiujitsu and some karate) but he heard of a guy that was teaching Kempo. It was a new and popular thing.

This guy was Sifu Tze. He watched my master do some excerzises and recognized the moves he did. Those are the same moves as the monks practiced when they fled China with Sifu Tze.

They are now long time friends and Sifu Tze is a well kown(old)martial artist in Germany and Holland.
Allbite he looks a bit like a Chinese version "B.A." at the moment.

And again. If my master was never in Indonesia and made all of this up. How come he knows so much? Check this story it's all over the internet. Just google "Sifu Tze".

Another thing: an -ex policeofficer from hong kong (he died a while ago) who started a chinese restaurant in holland was also thaught by the same group in Indonesia in the art of monkey.

This style was apparently so secret that only now a handfull of practitioners are still alive. (we only get thaught 70% of this style. The rest is tiger and dragon. for the same reason i guess, i don't think any of his students will ever learn the complete style)
I believe the story was that le chang ming never thaught any of this style on a regular basis to random pupils.

And i can see why. If he did it would be another "+400 forms!" and the whole secret would be gone. They have a fued with eachother and they, allbite a good school, probably make more than a good living out of it.

And on the thing why he probably doesn't recognize my master, my father is a teacher at highschool and well after 35 years of teaching he doesn't remember all the faces that passed by him in all those years.

But to make it clear, i never in my short years of practicing martial arts and visiting a couple of different schools, met a better teacher than my Sifu.
The guy is beginning to age but still rocks my socks of with his abilities. And i don't think someone who just makes stuff up to look good will be as good as he.

So next time you doubt this story first ask questions before shooting okay?:)

[Mas Judt]

There is great debate as to what creates the 'flavor' of CMA. Before I dive into this, let me point out that my training is both in CMA and IMA - the IMA having Chinese roots, but evolving into something different.

The challenge SD faces is one of history and veracity. It is very common for some CMA to have blended with Karate during the last century. The history of art transmission is one of secrecy and holding back - so each generation often needs to beg, borrow and steal to figure out what to do. (This is not true of all schools or students, but the general population). Indonesia is a very adaptive place with wide ranges of influences a incorporations of ideas and methods. It is not unusual to see cross-cultural blends of methods - despite the strong cultural barriers against it, oddly enough.

In China, TCMA is very reflective of the culture it developed in. There are specific flavors and styles of body motion that are not natural, but practiced and refined. You can get some idea of this by reading Adam Hsu's writings.


SD moves like Karate. It just does. CMA, even the styles karate evolved from, do not. So, if it moves and trains like Karate, yet claims to be the 'true' Shaolin style, there is obviously a veracity issue.

I could care less about SD if it just represented itself as another 'cobinasi' style, but it does not, and instead makes claims as an organization that mislead and defraud the public.

THAT, is where most people on this board ended up. Mixed-up languages, karate gis, none of that stuff really matters, but honesty still does.

Now, Sin The' may believe all of this stuff. He probably does, in which case, the level ogf deceit is less manipulative. Personally, I'd like to meet the guy and discuss his training in Indonesia.

This is a tired thread. Perhaps the best thing to come out of it is Judge Pen proving that the system has honorable and intelligent players.

[brucereiter]

There is great debate as to what creates the 'flavor' of CMA.


SD moves like Karate. It just does.

i practice shaolin do ... here are 27 different videos of me practicing as i was taught in shaolin do http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

i must ask what part of what i do looks like karate? when i was a boy i trained "park district" karate for a short time and in my travels i have visited and met with many karate people the body method is not the same as what i do. i can only speak for my self based on my own understanding.



Now, Sin The' may believe all of this stuff. He probably does, in which case, the level ogf deceit is less manipulative. Personally, I'd like to meet the guy and discuss his training in Indonesia.
you should contact him and ask respectfully what ever you need to know. just like anyone else you can find his contact info on the internet.

i suppose he will do one of 2 things. answer your questions or not answer them 50/50 chance ...




This is a tired thread. Perhaps the best thing to come out of it is Judge Pen proving that the system has honorable and intelligent players.

jp is a good guy:-)

best,

bruce

p.s. i do not claim mastery over any martial art ... i am just somewhere along my path.

[Chain Whip]

SD moves like Karate. It just does. CMA, even the styles karate evolved from, do not. So, if it moves and trains like Karate, yet claims to be the 'true' Shaolin style, there is obviously a veracity issue.

China is a big place and an old culture with countless dialects, types of food and other cultural norms. It would be very naïve to believe that while there is no single correct way to cook rice in China, for some reason there is only one way to flavor the movements in supposedly traditional forms.

Most of the time I have seen forms presented as traditional CMA it looks just like wushu to me. The same emphasis on performance, the dramatic posing, the sacrifice of function in the name of form, a complete lack of understanding of the type of power they should be attempting to generate, a lack of power in general – especially snapping power and no understanding of what the timing of the techniques would have to be if they were being applied in combat.

One way of looking at it is: There is the modern, highly acrobatic, highly structured competitive wushu. Also, there is the “modern” traditional CMA which is what will be well accepted at a CMA tournament. It may as well be called wushu without the acrobatics. And there is old traditional CMA, that is not performance oriented. It places the highest premium on body mechanics to deliver force – not present a flavor.

We are accused of being karate like in our movements. Maybe we should take that as a compliment. At least karate guys can hit. Our desire to make techniques powerful and to snap what should snap is part of what makes it traditional. We look at traditional as meaning - “Would I practice like this if tomorrow I was stepping on a battlefield?” Look at most of the “Northern Shaolin” forms you see performed today. Do you really think people preparing for war practiced like that? I can see the “drill sergeant” screaming at the soldier “BOY YOU NEED TO GET SOME MORE FLAVOR IN YOUR TECHNIQUES. YOU NEED TO PREEN AND POSE A LOT MORE. AND FOR BUDDHAS SAKE STOP TRYING TO HIT WITH SPEED AND POWER - YOU LOOK TOO KARATE LIKE!”

The laws of physics don’t change because someone thinks a little flavor would help influence the judges. Flavor doesn’t hit hard – proper body mechanics do.

[Baqualin]

China is a big place and an old culture with countless dialects, types of food and other cultural norms. It would be very naïve to believe that while there is no single correct way to cook rice in China, for some reason there is only one way to flavor the movements in supposedly traditional forms.

Most of the time I have seen forms presented as traditional CMA it looks just like wushu to me. The same emphasis on performance, the dramatic posing, the sacrifice of function in the name of form, a complete lack of understanding of the type of power they should be attempting to generate, a lack of power in general – especially snapping power and no understanding of what the timing of the techniques would have to be if they were being applied in combat.

One way of looking at it is: There is the modern, highly acrobatic, highly structured competitive wushu. Also, there is the “modern” traditional CMA which is what will be well accepted at a CMA tournament. It may as well be called wushu without the acrobatics. And there is old traditional CMA, that is not performance oriented. It places the highest premium on body mechanics to deliver force – not present a flavor.

We are accused of being karate like in our movements. Maybe we should take that as a compliment. At least karate guys can hit. Our desire to make techniques powerful and to snap what should snap is part of what makes it traditional. We look at traditional as meaning - “Would I practice like this if tomorrow I was stepping on a battlefield?” Look at most of the “Northern Shaolin” forms you see performed today. Do you really think people preparing for war practiced like that? I can see the “drill sergeant” screaming at the soldier “BOY YOU NEED TO GET SOME MORE FLAVOR IN YOUR TECHNIQUES. YOU NEED TO PREEN AND POSE A LOT MORE. AND FOR BUDDHAS SAKE STOP TRYING TO HIT WITH SPEED AND POWER - YOU LOOK TOO KARATE LIKE!”

The laws of physics don’t change because someone thinks a little flavor would help influence the judges. Flavor doesn’t hit hard – proper body mechanics do.

YES!!!!!!!!:cool:
BQ

[Baqualin]

@Baqualin:

.

So next time you doubt this story first ask questions before shooting okay?:)

lets put it this way, I'm not questioning your teachers ability or knowledge, I'm only saying Grand Master Ie, personally, never taught non Chinese, period:)
Maybe he was a student of M. Hiang's:D

[synack]

Chain Whip makes some good points. Nobody has accused me of being "Karate like" but if they did, I'd ask for exact details. Personally I don't care if people say I look "Karate like" because it really doesn't matter. If they shrug and say "I donno, just looks karate like." Then I'll know they don't know what they're talking about. I'd like to see someone post a video of an exact form done to a SD form. I want to see the differences.

Again I am new to Kung Fu so if someone doesn't mind, find two forms in video, one done the "right" way and one done the SD "karate" way?

I think direct comparisons would settle some of the back and forth on this thread.

[brucereiter]

I'd like to see someone post a video of an exact form done to a SD form. I want to see the differences.

Again I am new to Kung Fu so if someone doesn't mind, find two forms in video, one done the "right" way and one done the SD "karate" way?

I think direct comparisons would settle some of the back and forth on this thread.


i think you will all see there are as many ways to "do it" as there are people doing it.
which is correct? which is wrong? why? can they all be correct? the ones who move a little "choppy" are they doing kempo/karate?

here ya go ... i can only speak for the internal side since that is what i do.

the sd way ... a least my understanding of the sd way of yang tai chi chuan.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1c90Mrp3ffk

===================================
a few recognized masters ...
cheng man ching, yang tai chi chuan
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fl2mvyjHYS0

Fu Zhongwen
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rRZLJVfT6h4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zIpKW6AnKYw&mode=related&search=

Liu Gaoming - Yang Taiji
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cq2uHsUkwA8

hejinghan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdJpTJyyKyg
===================================
a whole bunch of regular people doing their thing with yang tai chi chuan


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4166859717221054205


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcrKABGco4w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNdsM3RNNYY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK8Bc_lSkAo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLw7ip_jSTg


http://www.polariswushu.net/tantuei18.mpg
http://www.polariswushu.net/tantuei22.mpg


a short clip of CMC/yang form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9cz5E44itc
and a yang fast form.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uURneiryOY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHoE0EHHr28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vu43UQA4vs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRJNFxioRSg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53J10WsV0KA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObDlzmt2SRU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYI76s-X-ow


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b26f3bIdyKA


http://www.bath-taichi.co.uk/video/yangintro.mp4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLNbgXapNjQ


http://johnswang.com/my_taiji.wmv


http://www.taichi4you.nl/site/video.html


snake creeps down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ri2HS2WHDc



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toisagr3-U8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR9Za5c-vuY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am_zZhW45vM

yang tai chi chuan grasp sparrows tail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7do1hHOQdC8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nu5DkFVElHE

some more guys who appear to be "normal' dudes practicing his stuff
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OrZ_VMxh61o
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y69RAtxu4Rs

[Meat Shake]

This thread is funny.
I will say this and only this...
GM Sin was a nice man when I met him.
The end.

...
Or The' end...?
Hmmmm??????????

[NJM]

Chain Whip makes some good points. Nobody has accused me of being "Karate like" but if they did, I'd ask for exact details. Personally I don't care if people say I look "Karate like" because it really doesn't matter. If they shrug and say "I donno, just looks karate like." Then I'll know they don't know what they're talking about. I'd like to see someone post a video of an exact form done to a SD form. I want to see the differences.

Again I am new to Kung Fu so if someone doesn't mind, find two forms in video, one done the "right" way and one done the SD "karate" way?

I think direct comparisons would settle some of the back and forth on this thread.

Does your teacher show you the application(s) behind each move in your forms?

[arinathos.valin]

Hello all...

Been a long time lurker on this thread, and I'm about to "step into the Octagon" with my first post on this subject...

Firstly, my congratulations to Judge Pen, who has been remarkably civil in his posts even in the face of rather inflammatory statements. It's quite refreshing considering how poisonous some of the posts have been. People can disagree vehemently without being disagreeable... so thanks to JP for keeping a level head in the discussion.

I did Shaolin-Do from about 1997-2005, earning a black belt in the process. I stuck with the system despite some serious misgivings because of my instructor, who was excellent. He had a very good grasp of body mechanics, form, style, and a healthy respect for the internal arts. He would tell stories about Master Eric Smith that were mind-boggling from a skill standpoint. He was not a devout defender of Shaolin-Do lore, realizing that more than a few legends surrounding GMT were improbable. I still consider him a good friend...

So... what were my misgivings about Shaolin-Do as a martial art? Here are a few of them...

1) Although lineage is not the most important aspect of a martial art (you can have the best lineage in the world and STILL suck...) I do think it offers a way to verify who has come before you and what their skill level was. The Shaolin-Do lineage as described in the book "Shaolin-Do:Secrets from the Temple" is suspect, as are some of the 'tall tales' listed in the book about old masters. I find it hard to trust someone if they misrepresent their credentials, even if they are very capable in their abilites...

2) I found an overemphasis on forms in the system, and it seemed that some forms had been co-opted into the system without proper credit to the originators. I had previously had a great deal of training in Yang Taijiquan. In SD, the Taiji 24 move form originated in the 1950s as a condensed Yang form. The "Taiji 64" form is actually Cheng Man Ching's 37 posture form, which some consider to be different in philosophy and practice than the original Yang style. The 'original' Yang style 108 move form is not in the SD system. The Baguazhang Classical form taught in SD is actually a variation of a form produced by Jiang Rong Qiao. None of this is discussed in any detail in the Secrets from the Temple book.

3) I felt the huge number of forms watered down the execution of these forms greatly. Paraphrasing Wang Shu Jin, it is better to do a few things well than to do many things poorly. I can remember watching a few tournaments in Lexington. A few of the performers were excellent... but more of them were uninspiring. At least one involving a higher level black belt and the Li Kuei axes was laughable. I've been doing some video comparisons between SD's version of Jiang Baguazhang and Chen Taiji with some other demonstrations of those same forms by Luo Jinhua and Ren Guangyi. The differences in technique are astounding, with subtleties in body mechanics and positioning that are not found in our versions of those forms. Not that long ago, the SD system began an 'internal style' advancement track that culminated in the awarding of a black sash. It covered numerous forms in Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. I thought it somewhat disengenuous that one would be able to get a 'black sash' in internal martial arts when there are people that have studied just ONE of those internal systems for decades...

4) The Gis...as superficial as this is, it still bugged me. I might have bought the idea that Indonesians hated Chinese enough for the art to go 'underground' as it were... but that certainly isn't the case in America. If we're a Chinese art, we should be wearing Chinese uniforms!!!

This isn't to say that practitioners of Shaolin-Do have no skill...there are students and teachers who would give ANY other school a run for their money in sparring/fighting. Certainly there have been significant benefits for me thanks to Shaolin-Do. I'm currently in a Shorin-Ryu Karate Dojo because excellent instruction in the internal martial arts is hard to come by here. The senseis have really ramped up my training quickly due to my past experience, and the katas are actually quite easy thanks to my previous experience with more complex forms. However, it makes me wonder how much ****her I would have come with my skills in Baguazhang, or Taiji if I had had a dedicated instructor in one of those arts, compared to the SD system where those forms are just one of a myriad of different forms.

Perhaps I'll come back with more, but it's past 1:30am right now.

G'night, all!

[arinathos.valin]

Hmph... darned blocking software...

The starred portion of my above message should say 'further'...

[Shaolin Wookie]

We are accused of being karate like in our movements. Maybe we should take that as a compliment.

Definately.....I remember saying that about a year ago....:D. The hardest punch I've ever seen and felt was thrown by an Okinawan Karate guy I visited sometime last Fall. Plus, they had sweet homemade sais that were sharpened on all three points. I need to get me some of those.:cool:


At least karate guys can hit. Our desire to make techniques powerful and to snap what should snap is part of what makes it traditional. We look at traditional as meaning - “Would I practice like this if tomorrow I was stepping on a battlefield?”

Another thing that makes SD look more karate like is the focus on sequestering technique within the form. Generally, you focus more on sequences, and not the form as a whole. Three or four moves strung together formulates a technique, and we don't tend to ignore that fact. We don't bully straight through a sequence of four or five hits and a sweep and then parade nonchalantly into the next set of spinning smash kicks (beginners do, but then so do all beginners in every style). Plus, every punch you throw is supposed to deliver maximum power.

One of the most frustrating things about learning Longfist was that my teacher insisted on keeping the elbows locked. I never understood this. Even in straight punches, he told me to lock the elbows upon extension. I knew this might look good, from an aesthetic POV, but it was absolute **** when it came to power generation. Every time I pulled into the half-moon position, he would say---"No, must be straight locked out! You want get hurt?!":rolleyes: In SD, every punch extends, approaches full extension, then snaps before it gets there, and retracts from the target to get maximum snap. In that Longfist form (and all his Shaolin Chuan), there was no retraction.

Another funny thing is that he kept telling me to lock my elbows, and they were locked. I'm not Schwartzenegger, but I do have large enough biceps that they still bulge up quite a bit when extended. All his other students were in horrible shape (couldn't finish forms without nearly passing out):D. So I'd have him saying---"Elbows still bent! Must use straight arm!" even though they were straight.:D

I knew, just from looking, that their punches weren't worth a ****. They're the kind I don't even bother blocking, because I know I can take them and just start throwing down.:D (But my friend Richie was pretty good--still, he'd been doing it 6 years).;)



Not that long ago, the SD system began an 'internal style' advancement track that culminated in the awarding of a black sash. It covered numerous forms in Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. I thought it somewhat disengenuous that one would be able to get a 'black sash' in internal martial arts when there are people that have studied just ONE of those internal systems for decades...

I took this position for quite a while. I watched brown belt and black belt advancement tests, and brown and black sash advancement tests, and was appalled by the lack of understanding in certain forms. I asked myself: How can they advance, or think they should advance, if they're quite good at one thing, but **** poor at several others? Their Taiji might be excellent, but their pakua might be horrible; or their tiger might be excellent, yet their cranes are appalling.

Then I came to the understanding that it is indeed the old "learn one thing well, rather than 20 things poorly" kind of mentality at work. Generally, students will learn what they want far better than what they don't have great interest in. Yet they're exposed to the principles of diverse martial arts styles, so at least if they don't even approach mastering a system, they at least understand a part of it. Training in several diverse styles teaches different power mechanics (shoulder blade rolling and ripping power in tiger strikes/rakes, whipping power in cranes, snapping in mantis), gets your body moving in different ways, and generally helps your martial knowledge.

REally, I don't like internal arts. I know this about myself. It's not a lack of patience or practice. I just generally do not like them. I do not feel that I would use taiji movements in any kind of conflict. To me, Taiji is like golf--it's an activity some people find relaxing, but annoys me and frustrates me greatly. (I saw Bruce's vidpost, and said to myself: wow, I suck--and he's awesome.) :cool:Yet I've derived great benefit through the practice of taiji. My body mechanics improved manifold. I've managed to loosen up my waist to a greater degree, and I've helped myself coordinate hand and foot movements. I don't care what style it is, where it came from, etc. Honestly, before I started kung fu training at SD, I had no idea that taiji was an actual form, and not people just freestyling....:eek: I do know enough about taiji, however, to see the parallels between what I'm doing there, and what I'm doing in, say, Se MEng Tao Lian (very alike, IMO).


I have no interest in mastering taiji. Hsing-I seems more up my alley. But before I get to that, I have to learn pakua. I'll try my best at it, and probably be pretty good from an outsiders viewpoint, I won't practice pakua as much as my kung fu forms, so it'll never be up to par with those, and someone (inside) looking from the outside will probably say: Yeah, his kung fu is good, but his pakua and taiji suck. WEll, I'd take no offense to that. But I guarantee the knowledge gained through learning those styles will be of great benefit, just as taking electives in college furthered my learning twofold.

Looking ahead at black belt, I say to myself: "Black Tiger....sweet! Spear...kind of cool, I guess." I'm a Tiger kind of guy. Looking at my brown belt material, I say to myself: "I like shorter staves, not the long staff (consequently, my long staff kind of sucks). Broadsword is definately up my alley, but it still needs a lot of work. If anything, I like my 3 (4 including yellow belt form) tigers the best. They fit my mentality and aggressiveness. But I'd really like to be good at crane, and just might get to the point where crane is my best style. After first black, I don't really see anything I'd say I was eager to learn until the drunken styles. But I'll learn those ranks' forms as well, because I know they're teaching me valuable principles, expanding my martial knowledge and repertory, and strengthening and loosening up my body for what I'll need to have at the next level.

I'll take a "C" in the internal program, 'cuz I'll be too busy trying to get an "A" in my external studies. It is nice to have that yin/yang balance, however.



4) The Gis...as superficial as this is, it still bugged me. I might have bought the idea that Indonesians hated Chinese enough for the art to go 'underground' as it were... but that certainly isn't the case in America. If we're a Chinese art, we should be wearing Chinese uniforms!!!



The shoulder on my frog button uniform just ripped rom neck to the arm seam, and there's a hole on the stomach of the shirt from a slip up with a kwan dao during the "swing of a thousand heads", where the spear end of the kwan dao ripped across my chest.

At some CSC schools (the one I attend included), they wear chinese garb. I'd rather have a gi, personally. They stand up stronger, and the material doesn't give very easily. And if someone grabs you and throws or tugs, the shirt wont rip....it'll just pull out of hte belt.

As a side note.....anyone who wears a gi needs a belt. Funny how some CMA schools shun belts, but then wear t-shirts tucked into cotton pants, yet still have a colored sash on the waist. There's no function to it, and it is therefore even more obviously about rank than anything.;)

[Leto]

RE: the flavor thing, and choppiness. I would love to do a karate kata side by side with a kung fu form to show the differences...however, as you said, everyone has their own "flavor". Karate people would probably say my kata aren't "crisp" enough, since they are flavored by my experience with shaolin and internal arts. kung fu people used to say my forms are too rigid, because of my experience with karate, they wanted me to "flow" more, although my snap and power was excellent. *lol* (that was the comment most of my panel/peers gave me on my tests, although I regularly scored very highly)

I don't have a space or a camera to make such videos, but I'm sure everyone can find clips of karate. So far I haven't seen any clips of SD's "foundational" material, the lower belt and brown belt forms, which I think is what we really want to compare to. Mostly demonstrations tend to be what people feel is the most "colorful", difficult, or advanced forms. This is not even mentioning the internal side SD, which I feel really does comprise about half of the style, and can't be compared to karate at all.

Uechi Ryu, the Okinawan style closest to its Chinese roots
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1285036497251884257&q=karate+kata&total=4413&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

Goju Ryu, second closest to Chinese roots
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6788997664906051771&q=goju+ryu&total=568&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

Matsubayashi Ryu (shorin ryu)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7406746080245439281&q=shorin+ryu&total=343&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7

Wado Ryu, Japanese karate
probably most removed from Chinese roots
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3415476362850003400&q=karate+kata&total=4413&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8

Wuzhuquan, five ancestor fist
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2442986792985945145&q=wuzhu+quan&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Babulien
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8007786806137915027&q=southern+white+crane+form&total=7&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[Mas Judt]

Well, you can't MAKE them drink...

[brucereiter]

leto some good observations there ... liked your post.





who is this person? where are they from? what are they wearing?

Babulien
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

[Shaolin Wookie]

We've been led to the well before, but the trolls keep peeing in the water, so we make the wiser decision....:D

[brucereiter]

Se MEng Tao Lian (very alike, IMO).



that is one of my favorite forms to watch. if i did external i think it would be a fav too.

wookie, it seems you are in a better place with your training ... :-)


best,

bruce

[Shaolin Wookie]

Made peace with it....hahaha.....

[Chain Whip]

I felt the huge number of forms watered down the execution of these forms greatly. Paraphrasing Wang Shu Jin, it is better to do a few things well than to do many things poorly.

I guess one would have to define "better" If by better we mean a person would have better skill with a front snap kick if that is all they did. That would obviously make sense. Most would argue that maybe more than a front snap kick would be better for martial skill. So, let's add a punch maybe a block, maybe another kick. Where you cut-off your learning is the issue. Some would say 10 techniques and others might say 100.

It is clearly NOT better to only learn a few things from a standpoint of health and longevity. A constant challenge to the mind and body to learn and develop new skills is a far better approach than to learn 10 moves by the time you are 15 and practice just those for the rest of your boring life.

What many people seem to do in martial arts is study in a fashion that best strokes their ego. They want to find a style that suits them, learn a few forms and just work on those forever. While it may sound logical to study a style that suits your natural skills it is hard to call that personal development. What you are doing is identifying your weaknesses and making sure you don’t address them.

[Mas Judt]

Well Bruce, I am most comfortable discussing Xing-yi, and I'd have to say that your linking form is very Karate-like, and does not exhibit Xing-yi principles or flavor.

Post these over at Empty Flower, and see the response you get. The guys there are very nice and will consider your relative experience.

You are obviously dedicated to your style, and I noticed you have linked to some good teachers... I'm not one of those guys who thinks nothing is better than bad training, as with a little ingenuity a person can learn a lot about fighting - but they still cannot claim a system they did not train in.

FWIW- I've seen the footage of Sin The' - he is in remarkable physical condition, but what he demonstrated was not CMA - it looked exactly like a Karate guy imitating CMA. So, really, looking at the root of the system, the answer is very obvious.