Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[synack]

shaolindoiscool - Thank you for the post comparisons. Even though I really wanted to see the external styles compared. That gave me what I was looking for but for Internal, still good comparisons.

NJM - As much as my teacher can. They're very good teachers and will always show you the attack/defense behind movements in forms. I can't say that all SD schools are like that... but the CSC school that I go to... they do.

I like the stuff I'm learning and I've never been this flexible in my life. I'm going to make it a point to ignore the lineage (or as some say, lack thereof). And also make it a point not to disrespect another art or their lineage, I think these arguments just get into the "my dad can beat up your dad" crap.

So, I guess what I'm saying is. If you don't like it. Don't join. But I'm going to have fun and if down the road I find something else I like. I'll pursue it also.

-Syn

[brucereiter]

Well Bruce, I am most comfortable discussing Xing-yi, and I'd have to say that your linking form is very Karate-like, and does not exhibit Xing-yi principles or flavor.

first i will make clear i take no offense at what ever opinions people may have. great thing about america you can have your own opinion.

yeah as i said before hsingi is not my strong point (tai chi chuan is ...) give me a few more years with hsing i i am practicing ... :-)

can you show me karate that looks like what i did?

although i do it poorly i think i do exhibit "some" hsingi principals. at the same time i realize there are several moves in the form as caught on that clip where i do not move all at the same time ... i throw a arm out of time with my body a few times ... lol ... o yeah ... my foot work is lacking too :-(
my lack of skill does not make it not hsingi ... lol ...

to compare here are a few other versions of linking form.

they all have a different "flavor". lots of flavors all being called the same thing. why? how?

what makes them hsing i or not hsing i?

are any of these "karate-like"?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tasjXH-yoNc&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KEf6JyvrNno
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2928647962816190285&q=xingyiquan+linking&total=6&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1887454803360764221&q=xingyiquan+linking&total=6&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LE8B03D2l7s&mode=related&search=
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6331580328979831598&q=hsing+linking&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260908020387895331&q=hsing+linking&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=5
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1794719365599685131&q=hsing+linking&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2130478438446214677&q=hsing+yi+linking&total=11&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1



Post these over at Empty Flower, and see the response you get. The guys there are very nice and will consider your relative experience.

i am a regular poster at ef ... most there hate my hsingi (but like my tai chi chuan/push hands)
i dont know if "nice" is the word i would use for some of them ... lol ...



You are obviously dedicated to your style, and I noticed you have linked to some good teachers... I'm not one of those guys who thinks nothing is better than bad training, as with a little ingenuity a person can learn a lot about fighting - but they still cannot claim a system they did not train in.

i am dedicated to my style but i also have my eyes open :-)

what do you mean by claim a system they did not train in?



FWIW- I've seen the footage of Sin The' - he is in remarkable physical condition, but what he demonstrated was not CMA - it looked exactly like a Karate guy imitating CMA. So, really, looking at the root of the system, the answer is very obvious.

ok ... i do not understand how "you" or anyone for that matter can say what is and is not "cma".

are they doing cma? is it "traditional"?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5997147529159256594&q=chinese+martial+arts&total=1759&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4858580354705984214&q=chinese+martial+arts&total=1759&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8962507559942983411&q=chinese+martial+arts&total=1759&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4895509602611742112&q=chinese+martial+arts&total=1788&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=5


respectfully,

bruce

[Shaolin Wookie]

shaolindoiscool - Thank you for the post comparisons. Even though I really wanted to see the external styles compared. That gave me what I was looking for but for Internal, still good comparisons.

NJM - As much as my teacher can. They're very good teachers and will always show you the attack/defense behind movements in forms. I can't say that all SD schools are like that... but the CSC school that I go to... they do.

I like the stuff I'm learning and I've never been this flexible in my life. I'm going to make it a point to ignore the lineage (or as some say, lack thereof). And also make it a point not to disrespect another art or their lineage, I think these arguments just get into the "my dad can beat up your dad" crap.

So, I guess what I'm saying is. If you don't like it. Don't join. But I'm going to have fun and if down the road I find something else I like. I'll pursue it also.

-Syn

I always rest content in the knowledge that my dad could beat up their moms.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The karate argument is tired and makes no sense.

Take mantis for instance:

There's northern and southern.

Northern mantis has 7 star, mei hua, white ape, tai chi mantis, etc.

Every single one of those systems will say: "We're a little different in that we do this or that, as opposed to this or that." Sure enough, they'll look a little different.

Now look at southern (hakka) mantis. It's uber-karate. It's more choppy and halting than any karate style ever invented. The stances are different than NPM, and most CMA styles. The shoulders cave in, and you face your opponent directly (the closest thing, in terms of aesthetics, is Wing Chun). Their forms look like....well, nothing else. Hakka styles are Chinese, but they don't look Chinese (stupidest statement ever award goes to: me). They look harder (external) than Chinese.

Saying a style looks Chinese is like saying a Cheeseburger looks more American or English.

It's either Chinese, or it's not. It can't look Chinese, unless there's a Chinese dude performing it.

California Pizza, Sicilian Pizza, Papa John's, Chicago Style, Italian Pizza....it's all pizza. Usually tastes the same to me. It tastes like pizza.

I've stepped into many different styles and picked up the basics very quickly. I don't announce that I study Shaolin-Do. But very soon they ask: "You've taken kung-fu (note: not karate) before, haven't you?" It's usually just a tweak of a foot, how high to chamber a punch, and how far to clear the line of defense in a block. No big deal. I'd say SD is taught differently than Mantis, or Wing Chun, or Hung Gar, but I'd say the same thing about those other styles in relation to each other as well.

Does anyone have any links to videos of Xingyi of Japanese origins?

How about styles of Tai chi that originated in Japan?

Don't give me Okinawan Crane. I want to see vids of Karate's Xingyi for comparison to Bruce's vids.

[WhiteEarp]

lets put it this way, I'm not questioning your teachers ability or knowledge, I'm only saying Grand Master Ie, personally, never taught non Chinese, period:)
Maybe he was a student of M. Hiang's:D

O excuse, :-) this could be true. Uhm i understand now a couple of things i should listen more carefully.
He did train in indonesia but he gave me a paper with names and teachers.
Well there is one thing i don't understand this is what it says:

(he is not good at computers so i had to decifer his handwriting)

Fukien Monkey

Su Kong Tai Dija 1849(hypertichosis)
|
Sifu Haing(chang ming)1882
|

And on the other side it says:

Sifu Hiang(Monkey- Dragon)


Somewhere else he writes some other names of teachers he used to teach with but that was in Jakarta(tai chi and stuff).

But his master looks very old on the black and white pictures? I know of a some master called Hiang. but what is the relationship then? and how old must hiang be? The hiang i see on internet surely isn't 83 years old.
My master is not getting senial:P i hope... one time he says le chang min and then he calls him hiang. Was there some old relative or??
(would be a great help if you knew some more:rolleyes:)
He also said i misunderstood him so, i'm terribly sorry for the misunderstanding.:o

[Mas Judt]

Hakka systems are deceiving, as they are not hard or choppy, but the 'jing' is and can be. A lot of messed up karate stuff is based on misunderstandings of Hakka methods.

Bruce, I'll need to come back to the videos due to time constraints, but I'll try to clarify - when I see broken body mechanics (like when Sin The' did mantis on video, and exhibit absolutely ZERO NPM principles in his movement.) it looks like Karate to me. When I see Shaolin Do make claims of entire systems, and in reality they only teach a recent variation poorly understood, teach Karate style one-step sparring and say it is because it is 'combat kungfu' - these are all things that should spell out loud and clear that things are not what they seem.

But, hey, I don't really care. If people want to drink the Kool-aid, go for it. But on the other hand Bruce, you seem rationale. In time you'll see what I mean, particularly if you are open minded.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hakka systems are deceiving, as they are not hard or choppy, but the 'jing' is and can be. A lot of messed up karate stuff is based on misunderstandings of Hakka methods.


That's precisely the point. Things can appear to be choppy, even though they are not.

[Mas Judt]

No offense, but I've Shaolin Do - if that is what you are practicing, I might as well be explaining an elephant to a blind man.

Hate to be so blunt, but it is simply the truth.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've seen plenty, and walked into several CMA schools, practiced with them (still occasionally with one of my Longfist friends at a Longfist school I attended for a while). Fighting is fighting. A horse stance is always a horse stance. A bow stance is always a bow stance. You almost always keep your back straight. When you strike, move, step, you incorporate the waist, and your heels should be your root. You always remain relaxed, and tense only at the moment of impact, and snap all punches and kicks. If one foot is off the floor, the other holds all the weight. Breathing is important as well, in through the nose to the diaphragm, out through the mouth.

What are these fantastic and profound differences, elephant man?:D

I've been cross-training in other styles/martial arts almost as long as I've been at SD. I haven't seen this elephant of which you speak.

****, man.....I saw the same principles of motion in capoeira. They're just dressed differently, and some are done upside down...hahaha....fighting can only manifest in so many ways.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Perhaps a better comparison would be:

Trying to explain the difference between an elephant and a wooly mammoth?:D

[brucereiter]

Hakka systems are deceiving, as they are not hard or choppy, but the 'jing' is and can be. A lot of messed up karate stuff is based on misunderstandings of Hakka methods.




Bruce, I'll need to come back to the videos due to time constraints, but I'll try to clarify - when I see broken body mechanics (like when Sin The' did mantis on video, and exhibit absolutely ZERO NPM principles in his movement.) it looks like Karate to me. When I see Shaolin Do make claims of entire systems, and in reality they only teach a recent variation poorly understood, teach Karate style one-step sparring and say it is because it is 'combat kungfu' - these are all things that should spell out loud and clear that things are not what they seem.

i only know a small bit of "chu ka" praying mantis taught to me by a friend i work with.
when i say small i mean only the first 3 postures of one form lol ... from what i understnd of the sin the "mantis video" is it was just some random "kung fu" moves recorded for a trailer intended for his movie ... not as a demonstration of praying mantis ... i really do not know what his understanding of that style is. or what his claims are about that style.

in many cases from my understanding only parts of some systems are taught ...

when you have time i would like to hear your observations of the videos i presented. i think they conflict with the points of view you have already shared.

yang tai chi chuan for example:
i have learned
form
standing
chi kung
push hands
applications
sparring/fighting
dao/broad sword (i am not so good at this)
jian/straight sword (i am not so good at this)

principals and concepts of tin/yang theory etc etc etc ... ... ...

hsing i for example: even though my skill and understanding is low ...
5 elements or 5 roads
12 animals
linking form
2 man set (i have not learned this yet)
jian(i have not learned this yet)
staff(i have not learned this yet)

etc etc ...

for some in the system all of this is just another "dance" to earn the next rank and for others they really study and practice to understand and apply what has been taught. this is up to the student.

for all the students who just do martial arts as a casual hobby that is fine, who cares if they understand what they are doing and where it came from or how to use it? they enjoy what they are doing and for the most part at least gain better health.



But, hey, I don't really care. If people want to drink the Kool-aid, go for it. But on the other hand Bruce, you seem rationale. In time you'll see what I mean, particularly if you are open minded.

i think you may assume i am ignorant about a few things that i am in fact fully aware of :-)

looking forward to hearing from you:-)

best,

bruce

p.s. i sure am typing a lot lol my fingers hurt lol ...

[Leto]

p.s. i sure am typing a lot lol my fingers hurt lol ...

If you practiced external styles you would be doing finger toughening exercises so that you could type all day long. I have to sit at a computer all day long for my job, I don't know if I could do it without my kung fu. ;)

[MasterKiller]

It is clearly NOT better to only learn a few things from a standpoint of health and longevity. A constant challenge to the mind and body to learn and develop new skills is a far better approach than to learn 10 moves by the time you are 15 and practice just those for the rest of your boring life.

A mile wide and an inch deep. What a philosophy to base your life on...



I've been cross-training in other styles/martial arts almost as long as I've been at SD. I haven't seen this elephant of which you speak..

And LMFAO @ Wookie, a 2-year brown belt, trying to debate Mas Judt on this topic.

Mas Judt has no horse in the race and has the most experience and best perspective on this board from which to judge Indonesian and Chinese systems.

[NJM]

Does your teacher show you the application(s) behind each move in your forms?

..............

[Chain Whip]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chain Whip

It is clearly NOT better to only learn a few things from a standpoint of health and longevity. A constant challenge to the mind and body to learn and develop new skills is a far better approach than to learn 10 moves by the time you are 15 and practice just those for the rest of your boring life.


A mile wide and an inch deep. What a philosophy to base your life on...

I don't think I said life philosophy.

Do you have more than one technique?

Are you perfect at all you practice?

Do you have any techniques that have become natural - that you have internalized?

Maybe someday you will have practiced long enough to have what you little you know become a part of you. Then and only then you will understand and desire to learn the next thing ...and the next.

[Leto]

I agree. The legends of Bodhidharma, while maybe not historically accurate, and possibly completely fictional, are taught to present a lesson. Mastery is not about doing as many different things as you can. The first patriarch came to correct the practice of Buddhism, he saw the Chinese building all kinds of big temples, erecting expensive statues, monks focusing on memorizing so many sutras as the sign of their knowledge of Buddhism. Well, this wasn't really "what it's all about", and Bodhidharma spent nine years meditating in a cave, showing the monks what is "real". He draws from the sutras, but emphasizes freedom from the texts. His teaching consists of extremely long periods of meditation.
Martial arts goes the same way. While it is good to have diverse experiences, mastery comes not from always seeking for the next new thing, memorizing more and more words, gathering more "knowledge". Deep understanding overcomes the feeling of boredom which initially comes from repition. It requires discipline to move past those feelings, which everyone experiences, where you want something more, where your ego tells you "this is boring", or "this is too hard". This is the "fight" which I think every martial artist has to win.
The Ch'an master is not bored sitting motionless for countless hours. The martial arts master is not bored performing the most basic techniques over and over again. If you listen to what all the words are saying, rather than just repeating them, it would be apparent that the most important thing is to "just do it".

However, that journey of accumulating and then dropping is one that everyone has to go through. If you didn't, how would you know what to drop, and what to keep? But whether you spend 5, or 10, or 20 years accumulating "stuff"...at some point it will all be left behind. "Always departing".

[Chain Whip]

A mile wide and an inch deep.

There is a simple mathematical way to look at MK inane outlook, based on his own geometric equation.

I did the numbers several times just to make sure. But, I keep coming up with the identical answers. A mile wide and an inch deep is exactly the same square area as what he must think is best - an inch wide and a mile deep. Unless he believes one should try to learn even more than we do to increase the square area.

[arinathos.valin]

Happy 4th of July everyone!

A few thoughts on some posts...


I guess one would have to define "better" If by better we mean a person would have better skill with a front snap kick if that is all they did. That would obviously make sense. Most would argue that maybe more than a front snap kick would be better for martial skill. So, let's add a punch maybe a block, maybe another kick. Where you cut-off your learning is the issue. Some would say 10 techniques and others might say 100.

It is clearly NOT better to only learn a few things from a standpoint of health and longevity. A constant challenge to the mind and body to learn and develop new skills is a far better approach than to learn 10 moves by the time you are 15 and practice just those for the rest of your boring life.

What many people seem to do in martial arts is study in a fashion that best strokes their ego. They want to find a style that suits them, learn a few forms and just work on those forever. While it may sound logical to study a style that suits your natural skills it is hard to call that personal development. What you are doing is identifying your weaknesses and making sure you don’t address them.


I think you've set up a straw man argument here (i.e. putting forth an inaccurate interpretation of the argument and then countering that interpretation). The argument isn't that 10 moves would be sufficient for a lifetime. The argument is that the sheer volume of forms that are presented make it difficult to excel in learning the principles of each form. I would argue that a true in-depth analysis of applications of far fewer forms would yield more benefits than just learning a whole slew of katas with only a superficial understanding of each one. The 'constant challenge to the mind and body' is not to learn ever more forms, but to unlock the hidden meanings and applications of the forms one already knows. I can remember a seminar by Master Eric Smith that concentrated ONLY on short kata 1, the first move that just about anyone in the system learns. If one can spend a whole seminar on the hidden applications of just that ONE move, how much else is being glossed over by stressing volume over in-depth analysis?




Then I came to the understanding that it is indeed the old "learn one thing well, rather than 20 things poorly" kind of mentality at work. Generally, students will learn what they want far better than what they don't have great interest in. Yet they're exposed to the principles of diverse martial arts styles, so at least if they don't even approach mastering a system, they at least understand a part of it. Training in several diverse styles teaches different power mechanics (shoulder blade rolling and ripping power in tiger strikes/rakes, whipping power in cranes, snapping in mantis), gets your body moving in different ways, and generally helps your martial knowledge.

REally, I don't like internal arts. I know this about myself. It's not a lack of patience or practice. I just generally do not like them. I do not feel that I would use taiji movements in any kind of conflict. To me, Taiji is like golf--it's an activity some people find relaxing, but annoys me and frustrates me greatly. (I saw Bruce's vidpost, and said to myself: wow, I suck--and he's awesome.) :cool:Yet I've derived great benefit through the practice of taiji. My body mechanics improved manifold. I've managed to loosen up my waist to a greater degree, and I've helped myself coordinate hand and foot movements. I don't care what style it is, where it came from, etc. Honestly, before I started kung fu training at SD, I had no idea that taiji was an actual form, and not people just freestyling....:eek: I do know enough about taiji, however, to see the parallels between what I'm doing there, and what I'm doing in, say, Se MEng Tao Lian (very alike, IMO).


;)


In the book "Power of the Internal Martial Arts" by B.K. Frantzis, he also extolls the virtues of cross training in different styles. My concern, however, is that if one's understanding of the principles of another style is based on an incomplete understanding of that style, how much understanding can truly be gained? I have only minimal exposure to other shaolin styles, so I can't compare SD's forms with others... but I've seen some demonstrations from other internal stylists of SD internal forms that have left me shaking my head in amazement. In addition, if the forms that this 'understanding' is based on is done poorly by the practitioner, it becomes a double whammy... an incomplete understanding of a form that is, by itself, incomplete!

As a side note of personal preference, I couldn't stop snickering every time I had to do the extended 'kiai' during the four punches of Se Mun Da Lien. I found the next 'Flying Tiger' form to be far more interesting and fun to do. I have to admit, I find only a very superficial relation between the mechanics of the Se Mun form and taiji...I'd be interested in hearing Shaolin Wookie's thoughts on the relationship of the two forms...

I should also add that during the sparring sessions in the Shorin-Ryu dojo, I've been specifically emphasizing the use of taiji and baguazhang principles and techniques, and doing remarkably well so far. According to my SD instructor, the internal styles were taught within the system only when Master Eric started learning taiji/bagua and began to dominate the sparring sessions within the SD school...

[brucereiter]

According to my SD instructor, the internal styles were taught within the system only when Master Eric started learning taiji/bagua and began to dominate the sparring sessions within the SD school...

that is interesting. i have not heard that before ... do you know when that was? some sd people have told me they started learning "yang 64" and "classical pakua" in the mid 1970's ...

best

bruce

[Leto]

I agree with arinathos valin. This is part of why I stopped attending classes...the constant push to the next new form. You spend just long enough on a form to memorize it, then you start the next. As soon as you know all your material for the level, it's time to test. Even before you've completed your test, you're starting to learn the next set of new material. Even at the higher levels, this is the case. I saw it with my instructor and others.
There needs to be more time spend on each form. The material presented through the brown belt levels is enough to work on for many years, and the same goes for the material presented at any one black belt level. Just the curriculum of testing from first to second black,( in CSC), could be a complete style, with four black tiger forms, Cheng's 37 Yang taiji and classical bagua, along with weapons, dao, chiang, and tiger hooks. just add a staff form and a jian form, and what else do you need? This material could be explored for years. I would like to see someone who is really good at sparring in the black tiger method presented in our forms, it would be interesting to watch.

[Judge Pen]

Hello all...

Been a long time lurker on this thread, and I'm about to "step into the Octagon" with my first post on this subject...

Firstly, my congratulations to Judge Pen, who has been remarkably civil in his posts even in the face of rather inflammatory statements. It's quite refreshing considering how poisonous some of the posts have been. People can disagree vehemently without being disagreeable... so thanks to JP for keeping a level head in the discussion.

Thank-you

I did Shaolin-Do from about 1997-2005, earning a black belt in the process. I stuck with the system despite some serious misgivings because of my instructor, who was excellent. He had a very good grasp of body mechanics, form, style, and a healthy respect for the internal arts. He would tell stories about Master Eric Smith that were mind-boggling from a skill standpoint. He was not a devout defender of Shaolin-Do lore, realizing that more than a few legends surrounding GMT were improbable. I still consider him a good friend...

So... what were my misgivings about Shaolin-Do as a martial art? Here are a few of them...

1) Although lineage is not the most important aspect of a martial art (you can have the best lineage in the world and STILL suck...) I do think it offers a way to verify who has come before you and what their skill level was. The Shaolin-Do lineage as described in the book "Shaolin-Do:Secrets from the Temple" is suspect, as are some of the 'tall tales' listed in the book about old masters. I find it hard to trust someone if they misrepresent their credentials, even if they are very capable in their abilites...

I can understand this. I think this is a problem that extends well beyond SD, but that doesn't justify it.

2) I found an overemphasis on forms in the system, and it seemed that some forms had been co-opted into the system without proper credit to the originators. I had previously had a great deal of training in Yang Taijiquan. In SD, the Taiji 24 move form originated in the 1950s as a condensed Yang form. The "Taiji 64" form is actually Cheng Man Ching's 37 posture form, which some consider to be different in philosophy and practice than the original Yang style. The 'original' Yang style 108 move form is not in the SD system. The Baguazhang Classical form taught in SD is actually a variation of a form produced by Jiang Rong Qiao. None of this is discussed in any detail in the Secrets from the Temple book.

The origin of these forms is correct. I will say that tai chi 24 has always been credited as coming from outside the system and taught be GM The' so that we would know one of the most popular forms in tai chi, but a simple comparision of 64 and Pa Kua to yang 37 and JRQ's pa kua show them to be the same.

3) I felt the huge number of forms watered down the execution of these forms greatly. Paraphrasing Wang Shu Jin, it is better to do a few things well than to do many things poorly. I can remember watching a few tournaments in Lexington. A few of the performers were excellent... but more of them were uninspiring. At least one involving a higher level black belt and the Li Kuei axes was laughable. I've been doing some video comparisons between SD's version of Jiang Baguazhang and Chen Taiji with some other demonstrations of those same forms by Luo Jinhua and Ren Guangyi. The differences in technique are astounding, with subtleties in body mechanics and positioning that are not found in our versions of those forms. Not that long ago, the SD system began an 'internal style' advancement track that culminated in the awarding of a black sash. It covered numerous forms in Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. I thought it somewhat disengenuous that one would be able to get a 'black sash' in internal martial arts when there are people that have studied just ONE of those internal systems for decades...

As I have said many times, due to the large number of forms and some instructors teaching multiple forms outside of the core material several times a year, there is a problem with students having too much and doing too little. Frankly, there's a problem with instructors having too much and doing too little. As you have seen, there are some very good teachers and instructors and there are some very poor ones out there.

As for the internal curriculim, it is the same as the external. One who gets a black sash only has deomnstrated the capacity to remember and perform a selection of internal forms. At least in my area (and I suspect a few more that I can't speak for) the internal elements are taught and practiced, but the form retention is what drives the rank progression so the real study and practice is then left to the student. It will take me years to grasp all of the internal principles in the forms that I already have. I'm actually looking forward to slowing down my external progression and focusing on those forms and all of the subtleties. Maybe then I can remove myself from you accurate and critical observation. I think there are some in the system who already have distinguished themselves in this way.

4) The Gis...as superficial as this is, it still bugged me. I might have bought the idea that Indonesians hated Chinese enough for the art to go 'underground' as it were... but that certainly isn't the case in America. If we're a Chinese art, we should be wearing Chinese uniforms!!!

Eh, they don't bug me, but here in Tennessee we wear chinese uniforms too. I think that they are more comfortable, but most of the time I just wear the pants and a t-shirt.

This isn't to say that practitioners of Shaolin-Do have no skill...there are students and teachers who would give ANY other school a run for their money in sparring/fighting. Certainly there have been significant benefits for me thanks to Shaolin-Do.

I agree, and I'm glad to hear you say so as well.I'm currently in a Shorin-Ryu Karate Dojo because excellent instruction in the internal martial arts is hard to come by here.

My father-in-law has his black belt in shorin-ryu and judo (although he is too ill to really show me anything). Good luck in your training. The senseis have really ramped up my training quickly due to my past experience, and the katas are actually quite easy thanks to my previous experience with more complex forms. That is true, if you've done SD, learning forms becomes very easy in other arts. However, it makes me wonder how much ****her I would have come with my skills in Baguazhang, or Taiji if I had had a dedicated instructor in one of those arts, compared to the SD system where those forms are just one of a myriad of different forms. You would be ****her along. But, as you said, quality instruction in these arts alone is very difficult to come by unless you live in a major metro area on the east or west coasts.

Perhaps I'll come back with more, but it's past 1:30am right now.

G'night, all!

Thanks for posting. Its refreshing to see that a former SD player can post objectively about the art instead of rail on how patheitc it was when, prior to leaving, they would rail on how wonderful the art is. I appreciate the perspective.

[Judge Pen]

I guess one would have to define "better" If by better we mean a person would have better skill with a front snap kick if that is all they did. That would obviously make sense. Most would argue that maybe more than a front snap kick would be better for martial skill. So, let's add a punch maybe a block, maybe another kick. Where you cut-off your learning is the issue. Some would say 10 techniques and others might say 100.

It is clearly NOT better to only learn a few things from a standpoint of health and longevity. A constant challenge to the mind and body to learn and develop new skills is a far better approach than to learn 10 moves by the time you are 15 and practice just those for the rest of your boring life.

What many people seem to do in martial arts is study in a fashion that best strokes their ego. They want to find a style that suits them, learn a few forms and just work on those forever. While it may sound logical to study a style that suits your natural skills it is hard to call that personal development. What you are doing is identifying your weaknesses and making sure you don’t address them.

Chain Whip, I'm enjoying your posts more and more. There's a good chance we may have met before.

[Judge Pen]

shaolindoiscool - Thank you for the post comparisons. Even though I really wanted to see the external styles compared. That gave me what I was looking for but for Internal, still good comparisons.

NJM - As much as my teacher can. They're very good teachers and will always show you the attack/defense behind movements in forms. I can't say that all SD schools are like that... but the CSC school that I go to... they do.

I like the stuff I'm learning and I've never been this flexible in my life. I'm going to make it a point to ignore the lineage (or as some say, lack thereof). And also make it a point not to disrespect another art or their lineage, I think these arguments just get into the "my dad can beat up your dad" crap.

So, I guess what I'm saying is. If you don't like it. Don't join. But I'm going to have fun and if down the road I find something else I like. I'll pursue it also.

-Syn

My flexibility has always been bad too. Still is, so you'll probably never be the best forms person and there will be some moves in some forms that you just can't do. But you'll find plenty of techniques to help you fight. We talked about side kicks a couple of weeks ago, from the little I know about you so far, work up you kicks where they are fast and sneaky from the solor plexus down. The hands are for the head and body. Its a figthing strategy that works really well for me (especially when you can get a kick up high from time to time and save that for the unexpected moments).

[synack]

My flexibility has always been bad too. Still is, so you'll probably never be the best forms person and there will be some moves in some forms that you just can't do. But you'll find plenty of techniques to help you fight. We talked about side kicks a couple of weeks ago, from the little I know about you so far, work up you kicks where they are fast and sneaky from the solor plexus down. The hands are for the head and body. Its a figthing strategy that works really well for me (especially when you can get a kick up high from time to time and save that for the unexpected moments).

Forms are something that is completely new to me. I'm working on them in my spare time as much as I can. When you go through boxing training (atleast for me) there weren't forms. Only combos, ducks, weaves.. bobs. Moving your feet and head and of course blocks. How to take a decent punch to the face, head or body. There wasn't much on stances or flexibility. Strength and speed training were important... and of course sparring. Usually medium to full contact with gloves and sometimes head gear. I quit when I got knocked unconscious.

I know kicks are my weakest point and I'm working on them more and more. I know when we spar at the CSC. I almost always get hit by people kicking...I've learned to block by bringing up my knee to my elbow.

I also get harped on for my hand placement when sparring. I always have them tight inside.

They prefer me to use their hand placement with sparring.

[MasterKiller]

There is a simple mathematical way to look at MK inane outlook, based on his own geometric equation.

I did the numbers several times just to make sure. But, I keep coming up with the identical answers. A mile wide and an inch deep is exactly the same square area as what he must think is best - an inch wide and a mile deep. Unless he believes one should try to learn even more than we do to increase the square area.

:rolleyes:

[Mas Judt]

Quote:
It is clearly NOT better to only learn a few things from a standpoint of health and longevity. A constant challenge to the mind and body to learn and develop new skills is a far better approach than to learn 10 moves by the time you are 15 and practice just those for the rest of your boring life.

This misses the point... there is a distinct difference between depth of understanding and practice and superficial practice. Shaolin Do may have some merits, but I would make the point that the system suffers by incorporating disparate, sometimes contradictory methods and practicing them in a superficial manner - exactly what they claim Modern Wushu does. (FWIW - for whoever said it, if your Long Fist teacher has you locking your arms out, he's teaching Modern Wushu or not qualified to teach TCMA). You can spend a lifetime extracting the knowledge from a method - constantly challenging your mind and body. Simply adding more, often misunderstood choreography, is really a poor analogy for complexity and change as a tool for growth.

Unfortunately, it always goes back to the blind man and the elephant.


But, hey, if it makes you happy, more power to you. Just don't be selling your 'true authentic Shaolin style' as you are popping off the modified modified tai chi short form created in the 50's by the PRC.

[Judge Pen]

Forms are something that is completely new to me. I'm working on them in my spare time as much as I can. When you go through boxing training (atleast for me) there weren't forms. Only combos, ducks, weaves.. bobs. Moving your feet and head and of course blocks. How to take a decent punch to the face, head or body. There wasn't much on stances or flexibility. Strength and speed training were important... and of course sparring. Usually medium to full contact with gloves and sometimes head gear. I quit when I got knocked unconscious.

I know kicks are my weakest point and I'm working on them more and more. I know when we spar at the CSC. I almost always get hit by people kicking...I've learned to block by bringing up my knee to my elbow.

I also get harped on for my hand placement when sparring. I always have them tight inside.

They prefer me to use their hand placement with sparring.

I usually keep my hands in tighter too unless I'm trying to bait someone into attacking. It's all different perspectives. Maybe you will learn something that can work for you. Regardless its fun to experiment.

[Mas Judt]

Quote
Regardless its fun to experiment.

Best thing said in this thread.

[brucereiter]

hi mas judt,

i was wondering if you had time to look at these videos and to address my questions?



first i will make clear i take no offense at what ever opinions people may have. great thing about america you can have your own opinion.

yeah as i said before hsingi is not my strong point (tai chi chuan is ...) give me a few more years with hsing i i am practicing ... :-)

can you show me karate that looks like what i did?

although i do it poorly i think i do exhibit "some" hsingi principals. at the same time i realize there are several moves in the form as caught on that clip where i do not move all at the same time ... i throw a arm out of time with my body a few times ... lol ... o yeah ... my foot work is lacking too :-(
my lack of skill does not make it not hsingi ... lol ...

to compare here are a few other versions of linking form.

they all have a different "flavor". lots of flavors all being called the same thing. why? how?

what makes them hsing i or not hsing i?

are any of these "karate-like"?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tasjXH-yoNc&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KEf6JyvrNno
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2928647962816190285&q=xingyiquan+linking&total=6&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1887454803360764221&q=xingyiquan+linking&total=6&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LE8B03D2l7s&mode=related&search=
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6331580328979831598&q=hsing+linking&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260908020387895331&q=hsing+linking&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=5
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1794719365599685131&q=hsing+linking&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2130478438446214677&q=hsing+yi+linking&total=11&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1



i am a regular poster at ef ... most there hate my hsingi (but like my tai chi chuan/push hands)
i dont know if "nice" is the word i would use for some of them ... lol ...



i am dedicated to my style but i also have my eyes open :-)

what do you mean by claim a system they did not train in?



ok ... i do not understand how "you" or anyone for that matter can say what is and is not "cma".

are they doing cma? is it "traditional"?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5997147529159256594&q=chinese+martial+arts&total=1759&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4858580354705984214&q=chinese+martial+arts&total=1759&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8962507559942983411&q=chinese+martial+arts&total=1759&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4895509602611742112&q=chinese+martial+arts&total=1788&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=5


respectfully,

bruce

[brucereiter]

[HTML]

Unfortunately, it always goes back to the blind man and the elephant.


But, hey, if it makes you happy, more power to you. Just don't be selling your 'true authentic Shaolin style' as you are popping off the modified modified tai chi short form created in the 50's by the PRC.

i am not sure how other sd schools present it but i was told from the beginning the "24" form was the most popular and most practiced tai chi form in the world.

i have also been told sin the' learned it from a friend in indonesia in the 80's and thought it had value so he taught it to hi students. to counter that i was also told by one sd person that it was the "original way the shaolin monks did it in the temple ..." i corrected him and he had a blank look on his face as if to say what the hell are you talking about.

i would hope it is common knowledge that everyone who has learned the "24" standard form knows its history as you said prc 1950, modified/combined ... blah blah lol ...

the only thing i am trying to "share" is that no matter where or how a art came to our system some have been able to grasp the "finer points" lol :-) of a particular art.

i dont really care weather sin the learned yang "64" tai chi from ie chang ming or cheng man ching or some other person or from a book or video as some claim he did.

i care what i can do with yang tai chi chuan based on how my teacher taught me and ideas i have found due to my own practice and experimentation.
i am confident that the methods taught to me stack up well with most other schools and better than some. i think this can be seen in how i express the art on these little clips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ
please note: i am not claiming greatness or that i am any better than another person i am claiming that i have attained "some" skill from the methods taught to me from a system called "shaolin do".

best,

bruce

[Baqualin]

According to my SD instructor, the internal styles were taught within the system only when Master Eric started learning taiji/bagua and began to dominate the sparring sessions within the SD school...

I first learned Tai Chi 64 & Classical Pakua in 1975...I know EMLeonard & EMSmith had it a lot earlier.......MSmith decided he like Tai Chi best and decided to Master it along with sparring tech. #1(not short kata 1).....he got his butt handed to him for about 3 years...then he started to dominate sparring.....EML's thing is Pakua (don't think for one second his Tai Chi is lacking...it's not!!) For the first 10 to 15 years GMS didn't teach a lot of forms....mainly conditioning, sparring, & applications...as his core group got older he begain to introduce more and more forms......the internal side begain to grow as a part of this. Since there's a lot of us who only wish to study the internal arts, GMS decided in the 90's to start an Internal side & most schools have excellent programs. Also Tai Chi 64 or the CMC form has been around for years & is very popular in Taiwan & is called 64 by some schools (this is according to my ex Chinese girlfriend who's boyfriend before me was a tai chi master) Tai Chi 24 & Chen Tai Chi fan were brought back from Indonesia in the late 80's early 90's from one of GMS's collegues this is common knowledge I also have a book published in china that has our Yang 2 edge sword form move for move......it was taught to us way before the book was published. These are forms that most CMA schools have. This only solidify's SD.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Not that long ago, the SD system began an 'internal style' advancement track that culminated in the awarding of a black sash. It covered numerous forms in Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. I thought it somewhat disengenuous that one would be able to get a 'black sash' in internal martial arts when there are people that have studied just ONE of those internal systems for decades...

Most all internal schools teach Tai Chi, Pakua, & Hsing I......most of the External CMA schools also teach one or two of the three or all just like us. Check out the web sites. Our internal classes go into great detail...we have a 5th master come in once a week, he teaches 5 animal frolic's, applications & self defense....it's not just about forms.
BQ

[Baqualin]

I've been doing some video comparisons between SD's version of Jiang Baguazhang and Chen Taiji with some other demonstrations of those same forms by Luo Jinhua and Ren Guangyi. The differences in technique are astounding, with subtleties in body mechanics and positioning that are not found in our versions of those forms.

Have you seen people from the SD Internal side do these forms?
GMS is a fan of Ren Guangyi...we watch chen videos one night for about 3 hrs.
Most of the people he watched, he called pu$$ies....I showed him Ren Guangyi and his eyes lit up & he said, thats more like us...thats the way it (chen) should be done....proper biomechanics & power generation.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Hey JP & Bruce....keep up the good work......chain whip welcome to the machine...I really like your post:cool:

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"I thought it somewhat disengenuous that one would be able to get a 'black sash' in internal martial arts when there are people that have studied just ONE of those internal systems for decades"

I guess I have been wrong that there are no objective thinkers in SD. It's just as disingenuous to achieve a black sash in shaolin based on a little of this form from one style and a little of that form from a different style.

In Hung Ga for instance there are 4 "pillars" and a few other forms that make up the style. In Wing Chun there are 3 core hand forms. In Chan family Choy Li Fut one must learn roughly 1/5th of the 200 or so forms to achieve sifu level.

So taking the Tiger Crane form from Hung Ga and the Siu Lim Tao form from Wing Chun and the Siu Sup Ji Kuen form from Choy Li Fut and then saying that one is a black sash in Shaolin is terribly innacurate!

[Leto]

It's only inaccurate if you're claiming to be a "black sash" in all those styles. Different lineages and families have different forms. If your style is comprised of each of the forms listed, then you can have a "black sash" when you know all those forms, no matter what position those forms hold for other families or systems.

Of course, I don't really like ranks in the first place, and if it were my own style, I wouldn't bother with them anyways. But, objectively speaking, a rank is only relative to the school in which it is given. The founder of the school or the style can set whatever criteria he wants and lable the ranks in any way he wants, it really means nothing to anyone outside that style. And he can call his school whatever he wants, too (though some names might upset others who also claim that name as their own, like shaolin).

People's issues come with the inaccurate cultural perception of ours that a black belt, no matter what school you're in, means you are an expert of all martial arts. Anyone who actually trains in martial arts comes to realize the error of this perception eventually. We all know that having a black belt, or whatever rank, doesn't mean anything, and you can't use it to compare to martial artists of other schools. The only important thing is how much time and effort you put into training.

The only thing that might be upsetting about all this is how some folks use their rank as a way to trick the public who are ignorant of martial arts practice. The first thing they ask is "what belt do you have?", no matter what style you say you practice. An unfortunate consequence of our culture's early and prolonged exposure to nothing but Japanese martial arts and their grading system. When you say "I'm a black belt", they say "oh, you must be good!"...whether you have two years of total martial arts experience, or five or ten or twenty years.
This is why I prefer not to use ranks at all. Just practice.

[brucereiter]

"I thought it somewhat disengenuous that one would be able to get a 'black sash' in internal martial arts when there are people that have studied just ONE of those internal systems for decades"

I guess I have been wrong that there are no objective thinkers in SD. It's just as disingenuous to achieve a black sash in shaolin based on a little of this form from one style and a little of that form from a different style.
saying that one is a black sash in Shaolin is terribly innacurate!

i think leto addressed this nicely ...

for example
in our system a black belt/sash mean you have learned and can perform the basics of what ever forms are in the system up to that rank. it says nothing of being an expert. it in my opinion is a organizational tool that can and has been misused and misunderstood. i have mixed feelings about the whole rank thing but it is part of the system i choose to practice. as far as the "time line" goes i should be a 4th or 5th black now but i am a 2nd. that has nothing to do with my skill or understanding of the material presented to me.

i am not in a race to get to the next rank. if a student is that is their choice even if they are being pressured to advance by their peers or teachers.

the other side of that coin is you might not want to take toooooo long before learning the next thing since part of our training involves always learning new things while refining a few things we want to excel at.

as ugly of an idea as it may be to some, many people make their living from selling martial arts.

another example:
in bjj a black belt often mean you have beaten all the brown belts in your school using the techniques specific to their art and are starting to beat some of the black belts who out rank you. the belt system is used in an very different way.

[arinathos.valin]

Can't believe this thread has gone on for 362 pages...

*tip of the hat to Judge Pen* Sorry to hear about your father in law. I know how hard it can be to deal with a serious illness in the family. Hope your wife is holding up OK...

Leto, I agree with your post about belt rankings. Before I joined up with SD, I was in a taiji class that didn't use belts. You knew who was good by observing them, sparring with them, and doing push hands with them.

Bagualin... good to have someone who has some perspective on the earlier days of SD. One of my acquaintances whom I respect highly, joined up with SD in 1973 and stayed long enough to earn a brown belt before doing other things with the internal arts. He is now concentrating almost completely on Chen Taiji from the Chen XiaoWang lineage. When I mentioned to him about the internal forms in SD, he expressed surprise, as at the time he was in it, he never encountered any SD internal forms. He must have left just prior to the material being taught.

My anecdote regarding EM Smith and his seminar on Short Kata #1 (and yes, it was SK1... I checked) was merely to point out the depth of material that SD might be missing in its emphasis on hundreds of forms. I have indeed seen SD internal stylists at work. My instructor really gravitated towards the internal forms, and I was impressed enough with his skills that I stayed for 8 years despite my misgivings (which says a lot about his abilities!). I've also observed some of the other internal stylists doing performances during the tournaments. I have to admit, I wasn't highly impressed, but there is only so much one can gain merely by observing from the stands or by watching video. If I ever get back down to an SD tournament, perhaps I'll have to do some cross-hands with them!

BTW, any idea what the author and title is of that book on the Yang Taiji Jian form? I'd be interested in checking it out. I performed that sword form for a visitor from China who was well versed in Yang and Chen Taiji. He had it pegged as a form from Taiwan, but we had to leave before I could get more information...

[WhiteEarp]

Actually, uhm on most old photo's from indonesia nobody wears a gi. Just a t-shirt and loose pants and chinese shoes most of the time.
My master was there in i think 1963. That's what it says on the photo. Each photo has a year written on the back.
And well my master uses a mixture of just plain Dutch, Chinese and Indonesian terms.
For instance he does not use the word Kata but Jurus. You can find Jurus in Kun-Tao. According to my sources it is a Indonesian word. Kun-Tao was the kung fu version for the Indonesians and foreigners.
But most of the time it is: Hit the throat, kick the groin. Break the arm.:p Instead of "mantis catches fly" or "monkey scratches his arse":p(joking!)
Ah well. The school was there long before 65'.
So it would explain the usage of japanese and indonesian terms way before that.
Why they declared it legal again? The dutch left indonesia i believe somewhere short after WWII. Indonesia then was run by Indonesians and they did not think highly of foreigners(can't blaim 'm, even now Dutch soldiers are blamed for raping and killing, we had no clean hands in it.)But in the end, a government has to loosen up for economic and trading. And let's face it. Chinese are the best traders in the world. They're everywhere and thriving!:D

[Mas Judt]

Nope, haven't had a chance to review these.

But it would certainly be of use to look at Sin The' doing Northern Mantis and looking at actual NPM. This is the root of your style, and while in enviable shape, he demonstrates absolutely no understanding of NPM. )I know, 'it was just a demo of some kung fu moves.' - but if you clam this system, shouldn't you be able to perform it, even 'goofing around.' Which is also odd, since you would think you would want to show the world your skills in a promo, not show something half-@ssed.

So many questions... none of which would exist if Sin The' didn't spread SD with dishonesty. I'm not sure what else to call it.

[Judge Pen]

Actually, uhm on most old photo's from indonesia nobody wears a gi. Just a t-shirt and loose pants and chinese shoes most of the time.
My master was there in i think 1963. That's what it says on the photo. Each photo has a year written on the back.
And well my master uses a mixture of just plain Dutch, Chinese and Indonesian terms.
For instance he does not use the word Kata but Jurus. You can find Jurus in Kun-Tao. According to my sources it is a Indonesian word. Kun-Tao was the kung fu version for the Indonesians and foreigners.
But most of the time it is: Hit the throat, kick the groin. Break the arm.:p Instead of "mantis catches fly" or "monkey scratches his arse":p(joking!)
Ah well. The school was there long before 65'.
So it would explain the usage of japanese and indonesian terms way before that.
Why they declared it legal again? The dutch left indonesia i believe somewhere short after WWII. Indonesia then was run by Indonesians and they did not think highly of foreigners(can't blaim 'm, even now Dutch soldiers are blamed for raping and killing, we had no clean hands in it.)But in the end, a government has to loosen up for economic and trading. And let's face it. Chinese are the best traders in the world. They're everywhere and thriving!:D


Hey White Earp,

Have you had the chance to collect any more photos that might show your teacher with Ie or Hiang?

[Baqualin]

Can't believe this thread has gone on for 362 pages...


BTW, any idea what the author and title is of that book on the Yang Taiji Jian form? I'd be interested in checking it out. I performed that sword form for a visitor from China who was well versed in Yang and Chen Taiji. He had it pegged as a form from Taiwan, but we had to leave before I could get more information...

Sure...T'ai-chi Swordplay / Eight-diagram Palm
Chinese Martial Arts Series 2
Shing Yen-Ling
Published by Sugawara Martial Arts Institute, Inc
out of Japan...first printing 1992

I help teach the internal classes & I'm very serious about it & so are most of our students...there's even a couple of 50+ Tai Chi Ladies that go to the external sparing classes.:cool: Feel free to stop by our school anytime to see what we're doing now...we love to touch hands...it's the only way to learn....some internal students also do Iron Bone training........breathing & mediation is also part of the program. I hear you on the demo's but most in the system are normal working people who look at SD as a hobby & a good non boring work out.....as you stated you can tell who is serious & who's not....come see us were good people....if your in Atlanta I'm sure Shaolindo school would love to touch hands too

[Baqualin]

My anecdote regarding EM Smith and his seminar on Short Kata #1 (and yes, it was SK1... I checked) was merely to point out the depth of material that SD might be missing in its emphasis on hundreds of forms.

My mistake...he also did a seminar on sparring tech. #1....which he has, mastered.
Yes we have all these forms, why not teach them, what's the big deal, that's how I found out I love the internal, also by studing the external for all those years gave me the foundation I needed for Pakua & Hsing I....I know by research the old Pakua Masters required their students to take a couple of years of Shaolin type arts before they would teach them Pakua.... now I know what I want and can focus on this part of SD for the rest of my life.:)
BQ

[brucereiter]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8x6er4aobuc

for anyone interested here is a clip of me practicing beng chuan form as i understand it. this is another example of a part of shaolin do "on video".

best,

bruce

[Judge Pen]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8x6er4aobuc

for anyone interested here is a clip of me practicing beng chuan form as i understand it. this is another example of a part of shaolin do "on video".

best,

bruce


I always like seeing your videos. Thanks for sharing.

It's a bit different from the way that I do it (as is your linkage set), but good stuff nonetheless. Different doesn't mean better, btw. It would be interesting to compare the two one day.

[brucereiter]

I always like seeing your videos. Thanks for sharing.

It's a bit different from the way that I do it (as is your linkage set), but good stuff nonetheless. Different doesn't mean better, btw. It would be interesting to compare the two one day.

thanks jp ...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-JuMkgpKJwE
check this one out too ... my monkey ...

i would like to see more of what other sd people do and how they express their internal stuff. one of these days i will get to knoxville ...

regarding "different" put 100 tai chi (or what ever) people in a room and tell the to show you tai ch chuan and you will likely see 101 different things and all of them could be "correct"

best,

bruce

[Mas Judt]

"This is just an example of 21 forms. Guess how many forms these people had to learn to achieve their level? Let me tell you right now the answer will blow your mind. 5th Degree Black Belt Associate Masters learn over 200 of these forms. By the time one reaches Elder Master 8th Degree Black Belt, they have mastered over 400 forms!

Long live Shaolin-Do! The only system in the world with all this knowledge and materials"


Well isn't that Ker-Snappy. Check out www.shaolingrandmaster.com and you can discover what the SD preaches. Check out the clip of the 'grandmaster' performing praying mantis.

This is really weird, man.

[Mas Judt]

I quote ffrom Sin The's biography:

"I am also the only person in 1500 years to be honored with two monuments at Shaolin Temples in China."

Then goes on to make it sound like the abbot honored him rather than his students donating money to the temple and getting a stele as a thank you.

I completely take back any rationale I might have applied to this liar to justify his fraud. Either he is dumb as a brick or is a willing liar.

My guess is the later.

Yikes.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

shaolindoiscool,

It's ok. A few observations if I may:

1.) Hsing-I/Shying-Yi is done slower
2.) There is more sinking with the hips before the explosion of the movement
3.) Sinking and rising with the strike should be done more in unison.

All in all..not bad.

[brucereiter]

I completely take back any rationale I might have applied to this liar to justify his fraud. Either he is dumb as a brick or is a willing liar.

My guess is the later.

Yikes.

you can have your opinion and express it how ever you like but i would remind everyone who posts on forums to "type" as if you were face to face with the person you are speaking about.

if you would say that to the mans face i suppose you are ok to say things like that.

to my knowledge of all of the many people who say negative things like that not one has said anything to him in person. why is that?

best,

bruce

[brucereiter]

shaolindoiscool,

It's ok. A few observations if I may:

please and thank you.



1.) Hsing-I/Shying-Yi is done slower



i think i disagree.
a) i do practice it at several speeds depending on what i am working on.
b) some groups do beng much faster than i can and showed in my clip
c)why?
d) how slow?



2.) There is more sinking with the hips before the explosion of the movement



ok .. i will see how it feels.



3.) Sinking and rising with the strike should be done more in unison.



true ... i will play with that idea



All in all..not bad.

thanks.

[Leto]

No one has authority to say what another person's style should or shouldn't look like or "feel" like. Once you learn something, it's yours and it changes because of you. No matter how much we want to believe we are preserving ancient methods of somebody's ancestors intact, it is changing and growing. The "basic principles that should guide everything" are reinterpreted from generation to generation.
It's a little stuck up, and naive, to think that the style anyone, anywhere is practicing today is the same as it was a thousand years ago, or one hundred years ago, or even fifty years ago. This goes for Chinese martial arts of all brands as well as everything else in the world.

So give the "tai chi must be like this", "mantis must be like that" arguments a rest. If you don't like the way something looks, that's fine. "I don't like the way your style looks, feels, flows" whatever. But it's silly to say "my style is right and your style is wrong." or "mine is real and yours is not". It exists and people practice it and fight with it. It's real, no matter what it's name is.
No one can comment on whether anything is effective until they've crossed hands with it and experienced it...so comments about how it looks or feels based on videos or a demonstration are just subjective opinion (that everyone is entitled to).

If two people have the same teacher, there could be a conversation like "teacher told us to do it like this, and you're doing it like that."
But if you're from a different school, a different style, a different teacher, you have no basis to comment on whether something is "correct" or not.

"Yours is different from mine, I do it like this, and this is why.." would be a more constructive comment.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

) "some groups do beng much faster than i can and showed in my clip"

True. There is more than one school of Hsing-Yi. As such there is some variance to what speed each prefers. My suggestion was based on your statement(in the clip) that you are "learning". Internal arts as a general rule recommend going very slow for a good ammount of time because in doing so..the development of chi is fostered. People always talk about "chi-gung".."chi-gung" as if it is the be all and end all. But before one can talk about circulating chi..one must first develop chi. As such..it is not so much a development per se as it is learning to avoid activities which deplete chi(as is often the case in todays world).


"c)why?"

Which of my comments are you asking why about?


"d) how slow?"

again this varies.


Leto,

"No one has authority to say what another person's style should or shouldn't look like or "feel" like."


When you are learning under a particular instructor..they certainly DO have the "authority" to say what said style should or should not "look like". Hence..they are the sifu and you are the student.





"Once you learn something, it's yours and it changes because of you."

The degree of "change" is also individual. There is "change" because of individual differences between students(ie: taller vs. shorter stature, speed of the student in performing individual techniques,etc.) and then there is "change" insofar as modifying of changing the sets completely. When this is done..it's not really the same thing anymore and becomes something else.




"The "basic principles that should guide everything" are reinterpreted from generation to generation."

Not always. Look at Ying Jow Pai. The same basic principles: Jow Da, Cum Na, Fun Gun, Chaw Quat--108 locking techniques of General Ngok Fei,etc. are still the same now as they were hundreds of years ago.


"It's a little stuck up, and naive, to think that the style anyone, anywhere is practicing today is the same as it was a thousand years ago, or one hundred years ago, or even fifty years ago."


And unless you were alive a thousand years ago..it's equally naive to assume that it's not the same. Nuff said.

"This goes for Chinese martial arts of all brands as well as everything else in the world."

Brands?



"So give the "tai chi must be like this", "mantis must be like that" arguments a rest."

Unless you study an actual style of tai chi(not Shaolin-Do) but either: Yang, Wu, Chen, Sun,etc. style from beginning to end..you cannot say this with authority. FYI..there ARE certain characteristics of certain styles which ARE the signature of that style. Even the fastest style of tai-chi is still ALOT slower than most external arts. If you do Yang style tai chi at Choy Li Fut speed..you have missed the point..regardless of what configurations your arms and legs are in. Similarly..if you do a Leopard fist and use Leopard fist philosophies and techniques..you can't say "Yeah..it's praying mantis"..at least not with praying mantis stylists laughing their a-ses off.

[brucereiter]

hi Erasmus Mingatt,

thanks for taking the time to reply. i do not mind someone respectfully disagreeing with me and often times debate leads to mutual benefit.

you answered my "why" in your last post.

i must disagree with most of what you have said though.

for example you say: <<Even the fastest style of tai-chi is still ALOT slower than most external arts. If you do Yang style tai chi at Choy Li Fut speed..you have missed the point.>>

how do you figure that to be true? take fair lady works shuttles as the yang tai chi chuan example and what ever external method is a similar block/punch type of movement.

are you implying that a "tai chi" person should apply the movement slower than as you said a choy li fut person? (i might be misunderstanding you)

i think speed is important to all martial arts.

delivering the max mass at the highest rate ... ... ...

are you implying that i do not practice yang tai chi chuan? i say that i do.

her is an example. http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ
<<Unless you study an actual style of tai chi(not Shaolin-Do) but either: Yang, Wu, Chen, Sun,etc. style from beginning to end... ... ... ... ... ... >>

let me ask this:

do you feel a tai chi chuan person should be fast and powerful?

best,

bruce

[cho]

No one has authority to say what another person's style should or shouldn't look like or "feel" like. Once you learn something, it's yours and it changes because of you. . . . .

Then define mastery.

Can everyone learn the movements from a book and make it their own?

There becomes a point when it becomes something completely different than what it once was.

[Golden Tiger]

My anecdote regarding EM Smith and his seminar on Short Kata #1 (and yes, it was SK1... I checked) was merely to point out the depth of material that SD might be missing in its emphasis on hundreds of forms.


Funny story actually....He was invited to ATL to review and teach a class on short forms 1-30 but only made it through # 1 in 1:30. When he left, he told them to let him know when they would be ready to go over # 2.:D

As for the statement of SD missing the depth because of the numbers, well, He (Master Smith) knows all the forms that have been taught also so the volume couldn't be the problem. The difference, I think, is that he took the time to break down everything he was shown, and study it, not just practice the motions. There are actually quite a few of the masters that have done that. A good way to tell is ask a question about a simple move and sit back and listen to an eye opening in depth response.

To me, that, and not the number of forms learned, defines mastery of an art.

[Mas Judt]

I assure you that I would say the same thing to the man's face. Not being a member of your cult, he just looks silly to me, so you won't find me hiding.

It seems highly dubious to me that NO ONE ever brought this up to him, particularly out of any implied reason such as fear or that Sin The' is the 'one.' COME ON.

More likely, most people are polite. But this is simply dishonest BS.

Grow up.

[brucereiter]

I assure you that I would say the same thing to the man's face. Not being a member of your cult, he just looks silly to me, so you won't find me hiding.

It seems highly dubious to me that NO ONE ever brought this up to him, particularly out of any implied reason such as fear or that Sin The' is the 'one.' COME ON.

More likely, most people are polite. But this is simply dishonest BS.

Grow up.


my observation was that people like your self who are not in the system and publicly say negative things about the system, sin kwang the', and the students in the system; to my knowledge have never said these things face to face.

if you know of any who has i would like to hear about it.

i have "been around" and "touched hands" with many people from all over the world from many arts, styles and skill levels. some have had more skill than me and some have had less skill than me but none have said insulting things to my face
(except one but thats another story ... lol ...)

please do not try to twist the meaning of my comments. as you know it can be difficult to communicate via message boards.

i have only tried to share some of the material presented to me as i learn shaolin do.
i am interested in discussing the content of shaolin do.
i am really not interested in bickering back and forth about you dis-liking sin kwang the'.

i am not a member of any cult. that is a silly statement that sound like a intended insult.

please avoid ad hominem attacks. i dont think they are useful to the debate at hand.

ad ho&#183;mi&#183;nem
Pronunciation: (')ad-'h&#228;-m&-"nem, -n&m
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

best,

bruce

p.s. i am a 37 year old man. i am grown up :-)

[Leto]

Mastery is a tricky thing to define. Some say you've got it when you know everything your teacher knew. Maybe you have it when you're able to defeat everyone you meet in a fight ;) Maybe it's something internal, that no one outside can really measure.
The point is, we don't really know where Sin The learned all his stuff. As far as we know, his only teacher was Ie Chang Ming. We don't know anyone else who also was a student of Ie Chang Ming, and we don't really know who Ie's teacher or teachers were. So as far as anyone knows or can prove, Sin The is the "master" of the style he is teaching. It's his own brand of hsing i, bagua, mantis, tiger, crane, drunken, etc. He's not claiming to teach the hsing i of someone else's lineage, he's not claiming to teach the seven star mantis of whatever lineage...it's all his own lineage. Maybe he learned all the stuff from books that he's collected over the years, but no one can prove that. There may be teachers of other styles who learned things from books, too...no one will ever know for sure unless they admit it.

I'm not saying that shaolin do is better, or worse, or just as good as any other style. It has nothing to do with quality of instruction, or depth of material or understanding. It's just that, as far as we know, everything that comes from Sin The is "correct" for his lineage and his style. It's just not the same as other lineages with similar techniques and styles. Maybe you feel it's lacking something, that's ok. But you don't know that it isn't exactly how Sin's teacher taught him, and how the teacher's teacher taught it.

If anyone knows for sure that Sin The learned a form or a style from a book, then show us the book and show us the proof that he learned it from the book, and then you can say "Sin The is doing it wrong, because the writer of the book does it this way".
Until we have proof, it's just speculation, no matter how likely it seems. It's Chinese martial arts because it comes from a Chinese lineage, as far as anyone can prove. Not because it's the same as other Chinese styles.

[Chain Whip]

Posted by Erasmus Mingatt --- And unless you were alive a thousand years ago..it's equally naive to assume that it's not the same. Nuff said.


Also posted by Erasmus Mingatt (same post) --- Not always. Look at Ying Jow Pai. The same basic principles: Jow Da, Cum Na, Fun Gun, Chaw Quat--108 locking techniques of General Ngok Fei,etc. are still the same now as they were hundreds of years ago.

Did anyone else note the contradiction?

[Mas Judt]

Well, I took it as I read it. Honestly, I've encountered SD directly - and always been honest about what I saw.

This is not style vs. style - I could care less about your school. I do care about a pattern of deceit and misrepresentation that continues to this day.

Look, John Wang always tells the story of a guy who practiced different ways of hitting a coconut on a string - and won a big Lei Tei match with no formal training. So who knows, SD coulld produce some Ker-Snappy skilled guys. But to claim everything you claim insofar as being the 'original, pure' methods and the 'true Shaolin' while disparaging todays Shaolin as 'just wushu' is silly.

Someone earlier in this thread did the math on how much time it would take Sin The' to 'master' 900 forms by his teens. Simple logic disproves much of the nonsense. Observation of Sin The' doing his mantis makes things very clear.

I'm done. Go rationalize. Think I'm some kind of troll. Whatever. Just keep drinking the Kool-Aid, and I guess you'll be happy - and your life will be chocked full of deceit as you continue to spread a tradition of lies.

[kwaichang]

There is right and wrong you my friend are RUDE thats all. You are not all knowing or all seeing and very opinionated. I dont se how you learn anything you are so closed minded. KC

[brucereiter]

Well, I took it as I read it. Honestly, I've encountered SD directly - and always been honest about what I saw.

This is not style vs. style - I could care less about your school. I do care about a pattern of deceit and misrepresentation that continues to this day.

Look, John Wang always tells the story of a guy who practiced different ways of hitting a coconut on a string - and won a big Lei Tei match with no formal training. So who knows, SD coulld produce some Ker-Snappy skilled guys. But to claim everything you claim insofar as being the 'original, pure' methods and the 'true Shaolin' while disparaging todays Shaolin as 'just wushu' is silly.

Someone earlier in this thread did the math on how much time it would take Sin The' to 'master' 900 forms by his teens. Simple logic disproves much of the nonsense. Observation of Sin The' doing his mantis makes things very clear.

I'm done. Go rationalize. Think I'm some kind of troll. Whatever. Just keep drinking the Kool-Aid, and I guess you'll be happy - and your life will be chocked full of deceit as you continue to spread a tradition of lies.

which "you" are you speaking about?

if it is me you are speaking about. what lies have i spread? i have never said anything disparaging about another martial art or artist on any forum.

i have never claimed "my" methods to be the best, or the original or pure.
i do not think you are a troll but i do think you are misinformed on the subject at hand.

best,

bruce

p.s. this is silly to go back and forth. like i said before i would rather discuss the material presented and discuss how others express and apply the material they have learned.

[Leto]

I don't believe anyone has "mastered" 900 forms. I don't like that the history and origins of the forms we do know are obscured. I don't even like the way a lot of the material is initially taught. But there is something there, wherever it came from. It's not worth bothering about if you've got your own teacher and your own so-called "legitimate" style to practice. But for people who have already invested time and effort into this, and possibly don't have any other options for training besides generic karate or tae kwon do...it is important. We know that there is something useful here...and I don't think anyone who knows about Chinese history, martial arts, and the Shaolin temple actually believes that Sin The is the master inheritor of every style of kung fu ever to come from Shaolin.
If it's just a mix-match personal style invented by Sin The, or his teacher, or whoever, so be it. But it is a "real" style, that has some good techniques and forms. Someone who trains the right way, and has developed insight, will have just as good "kung fu" as someone who trains in any "authentic" style, with masters from Hong Kong or Taiwan or Shanghai.

I am disappointed that the style's history has been based on tall tales, and disappointed that the long time teachers perpetuate the mythology as truth. I want to know where it all really came from, and what traditions/lineages to look at as "ancestors" of the style. But I know that such answers are not coming from anyone who really knows anytime soon. Should I just stop practicing, and forget all the things I know? I could just go back to my Okinawan karate style exclusively, which has a traceable lineage back to the 18th century (that means it must be better, right?). But I tell you, what I learned at the CSC was valuable. Whether it's really "shaolin" or not...I don't care. It doesn't mean I won't accept other avenues of training, but I will not forget or discard the things I have learned. Whether what I was taught as "hsing i" is really hsing i...I don't care. Maybe it's not as "effective" as "real" hsing i...I know it teaches a method of power generation for short range attacks which is quite effective. It probably is different than what the shanxi and heibei lineages call hsing i. Oh well.
I was taught two very common tai chi forms, but maybe the way they are practiced is not common. Doing straight punches from a horse stance is also a common method, however almost everyone has some variation and their own preference for what is "right". One teacher says the chamber must be as high as it can go...another says the chamber should be near the hip, or the ribs, or wherever. One teacher says vertical punches are more effective than horizontal punches, another says horizontal has more power, and a third says it doesn't matter. One says the knees must be out, another says the knees must be in. One says you squeeze the ground with your toes, another says you must be totally relaxed. Balance near the balls of the feet, or balance near the heels, or on the blade. One says the torso should not move perceivably, another says you should twist as you punch , or sink, or whatever. The only thing which is the same is the actual act of punching. Every one says their way is the "right" way, and those other guys are wrong and aren't as good as we are.
How is this different than what is happening here with SD?

If you put aside all the lineages, the folklore, the coutries of origin, the politics and pride, and just look at what's actually there...what basis does anyone have for saying one way is wrong and the other way is right? It's subjective and personal. You can't judge effectiveness in fighting unless you constantly fight with people. Aesthetics of performance is subjective according to your tastes. You may be able to see whether someone's spine is straight, and posture correct to allow correct qi flow, but you can't (usually) see their mentality, what they are visualizing, or whether their mindset is "correct".

[Judge Pen]

I don't believe anyone has "mastered" 900 forms. I don't like that the history and origins of the forms we do know are obscured. I don't even like the way a lot of the material is initially taught. But there is something there, wherever it came from. It's not worth bothering about if you've got your own teacher and your own so-called "legitimate" style to practice. But for people who have already invested time and effort into this, and possibly don't have any other options for training besides generic karate or tae kwon do...it is important. We know that there is something useful here...and I don't think anyone who knows about Chinese history, martial arts, and the Shaolin temple actually believes that Sin The is the master inheritor of every style of kung fu ever to come from Shaolin.
If it's just a mix-match personal style invented by Sin The, or his teacher, or whoever, so be it. But it is a "real" style, that has some good techniques and forms. Someone who trains the right way, and has developed insight, will have just as good "kung fu" as someone who trains in any "authentic" style, with masters from Hong Kong or Taiwan or Shanghai.

I am disappointed that the style's history has been based on tall tales, and disappointed that the long time teachers perpetuate the mythology as truth. I want to know where it all really came from, and what traditions/lineages to look at as "ancestors" of the style. But I know that such answers are not coming from anyone who really knows anytime soon. Should I just stop practicing, and forget all the things I know? I could just go back to my Okinawan karate style exclusively, which has a traceable lineage back to the 18th century (that means it must be better, right?). But I tell you, what I learned at the CSC was valuable. Whether it's really "shaolin" or not...I don't care. It doesn't mean I won't accept other avenues of training, but I will not forget or discard the things I have learned. Whether what I was taught as "hsing i" is really hsing i...I don't care. Maybe it's not as "effective" as "real" hsing i...I know it teaches a method of power generation for short range attacks which is quite effective. It probably is different than what the shanxi and heibei lineages call hsing i. Oh well.
I was taught two very common tai chi forms, but maybe the way they are practiced is not common. Doing straight punches from a horse stance is also a common method, however almost everyone has some variation and their own preference for what is "right". One teacher says the chamber must be as high as it can go...another says the chamber should be near the hip, or the ribs, or wherever. One teacher says vertical punches are more effective than horizontal punches, another says horizontal has more power, and a third says it doesn't matter. One says the knees must be out, another says the knees must be in. One says you squeeze the ground with your toes, another says you must be totally relaxed. Balance near the balls of the feet, or balance near the heels, or on the blade. One says the torso should not move perceivably, another says you should twist as you punch , or sink, or whatever. The only thing which is the same is the actual act of punching. Every one says their way is the "right" way, and those other guys are wrong and aren't as good as we are.
How is this different than what is happening here with SD?

If you put aside all the lineages, the folklore, the coutries of origin, the politics and pride, and just look at what's actually there...what basis does anyone have for saying one way is wrong and the other way is right? It's subjective and personal. You can't judge effectiveness in fighting unless you constantly fight with people. Aesthetics of performance is subjective according to your tastes. You may be able to see whether someone's spine is straight, and posture correct to allow correct qi flow, but you can't (usually) see their mentality, what they are visualizing, or whether their mindset is "correct".

Bravo Leto. Well said.

[Judge Pen]

I assure you that I would say the same thing to the man's face. Not being a member of your cult, he just looks silly to me, so you won't find me hiding.

It seems highly dubious to me that NO ONE ever brought this up to him, particularly out of any implied reason such as fear or that Sin The' is the 'one.' COME ON.

More likely, most people are polite. But this is simply dishonest BS.

Grow up.

I'm surprised by this post. Frankly with your reputation and knowledge you didn't have to resort to this type of attack to make your points. Really Joe this was uncalled for.

SD is many things. Leto made some very fine points. You can debate the "right and wrong" of its forms, what they are called, and the dubious lineage. But SD is not a cult. That is patently unfair.

If you want to know about martial arts cults, then read "Hearding the Moo" written by a "Joe Smith". I'm sure that you know all about Chung Moo Doe (a style I'm sure you've had experience with with your roots in Chicago). I have never been told what to think. I've never been asked for money or told to change my life based upon any silly superstitions. I've never been yelled at or demeaned or asked to worship anyone. My teachers and Sin The do not have any degree of control over me outside of the time I give to them in training. They have never tried to exert it. I hear stories about history and I take it in and keep punching and kicking. I respect them because they take the time to teach me something that is useful.

Bruce was asking some legitimate questions in order to explore your criticism. He has done a thorough job documenting, with video examples, different forms and styles and wondering how they compare to how he practices his art. Since you comand so musch respect on this board he was taking the time to have an objective dialogue with someone who says they know. I comend him for not sticking his head in the sand and comparing other arts. He wanted your opinion on the technique--not the history or lineage.

You could have taken the time to look and comment. Or you could have not taken the time at all. This is an internet forum--who really cares what happens here? Its the proverbial tempest in a teapot so I can't blame you for not putting at least the same amount of time Bruce did into his posts. This thread is like a tv, you don't like what's being said, you can just turn it off. But there's no excuse for being rude to him and everyone else who practices SD with an objective and open mind.

Its been some of your insights that have helped me look at my own art from different perspectives. You know how the Indonesan martial culture loves the tall tale and the fantastic element. You know how this is tempered with a brutal practicality. In our discussions on these forums and by e-mail you have always been polite and respectful even while being honest. Bruce did not do anything to not deserve the same treatment.

[Shaolin Wookie]

In answer to someone's question as to the likeness between the forms, here goes:

As in Tai Chi, the Crane form works best when there is little to no tension in any of the shoulders, wrists, or elbows. Before any martial arts practice, I always loosen up my joints, even before stretching.

After the initial opening and down strike into a bow stance, there's a flurry of three attacks/blocks. The body position isn't too unlike the "fair lady and shuttle" movements of tai chi. Only, in this crane form, you can think of the strikes as useful in three ways. One, the outside hand is clearing an incoming arm, and the inside arm is striking. Two, the twisting of the torso clears the attack, and both hands strike the neck. Three, the torso clears the punch, and both hands strike at the arm (hitting bicep and forearm press. points, like in blue belt technique # 7), providing the opportunity to move for a sweep, etc. In terms of applicability, I'd probably do these motions in reverse, after taking a step back at an angle. I also make sure to twist the torso and hips, to avoid the punch, so that I can apply this in advancing. (This same basic motion is present in the ippons at yellow belt, just dressed a little differently and stepping at an angle).

My favorite movement: after the right side hand movement forward/crane beak to back, the left arm rises in a semi-circle (ending overhead) as the right hand shoots across the chest in a clear, and the feet move into a cat stance. This is the most important and useful technique in the entire form, IMO, and one not a lot of people consider (as is evidenced by their looks of confusion and roboto body mechanics). The left hand should move first, providing for a strong block to the side--reinforced by the body's movement into a cat stance (but the arm begins the motion by building momentum and whipping strength). The right hand clears across the body, for protection, once hte body's in motion. I've been experimenting a little with some dudes to work it against a jab and straight combo, and it works just fine, using the right hand clear as a slap block (works well if you direct the punch up and across his body)---and it doesn't require a body twist. You can do it quick with a small pivot, if you bring the left hand up quick in a diagonal, or even a smaller semi-circle, making sure to clear in front of the face. But since the left is such a strong block, it's a little unnecessary, unless you're trying to get a big opening (and considering the way the form fucntions, you're trying to get a big opening, to open the way for a slap to the abdomen.) PErsonally, I see it as a crane defense against a mid-high range round kick, or a haymaker, where you need good strong blocks--and this arm doesn't just block with the enitre arm...it blocks with the entire body moving behind it---and it can be performed successfully by just pivoting from a sparring stance (more like the beginning of 3rd Crane). And the hand that clears across the torso: could just as easily strike with a side hand if the clear is unneccessary. The motion is dressed differently, but it reminds me of the ridge-hand strike at the beginning of Yang section 2. Bit of a stretch, I suppose, but it does remind me of it.

3 crane slaps (side hands): Incorporates movement of the hips and floppy (relaxed arms), generating power through whipping strength. Same principle as single whip, although the second set, performed with dead hand slaps, is more directly reminiscent of it. Single whip movements occurs in many SD techs: In several chin-na's, almost every crane (excepting only 2nd Crane).

The most tai chi oriented movement: The circle clear and push. The forward foot chambers into a high crane stance as the hands pull into a small circle; then, the body pushes back out into a bow stance, accompanied by a push.

Ward off, roll back, and push are all present (maybe even a press, as well).

Some people incorporate the motions of the hands more than I, but I generally keep them in front of my shoulders (close enough to the body to be able to close in front of the face), and make it a point to get waist and torso rotation, more than arm rotation. When I perform it, I don't even move the hands (for several reasons). The hands are in position to ward off a punch across the body, then extend into a full-body push (just like tai chi). In a more yang way, they can simply provide cover by being there in case something swings towards the head (just like the beginning one-legged stance blocks performed in short forms 27 & 28--may differ for SD folks than CSC). The foot that comes in chambers into a crane stance. This can be used as protection against a roundkick, catching it with the shin; also, as evasion or retreat against a sweep or low kick from outside). During such a movement, you'd want the hands high, elbows low across the midsection, to protect the upper body against a roundkick/punch combination. It also puts you in good position for extension into a strike.

As I push out, I keep my hands chambered until the last second, when my torso begins to turn up and into the opponent, making a point to gather all the momentum I need through the chambered leg and extension into a bow stance. When helping classmates with this one, I demonstrate first by using my arms in a big circle, then using no circle (keeping them chambered). I can push someone harder and with more force with the latter every time, much harder than a bigger and heavier person can throw me using only his arms). This motion is very tai chi-ish.

These are just a few. Note: when I practice any crane, I try to keep as relaxed, calm, and fluid as possible, utilizing snap and whip power. It feels more internal than external. And sometimes I run through it very slow, to consider the movements in their smallest increments. It's about as internal as I enjoy; and I can and do utilize the more unorthodox movements some people tend to gloss over.

[brucereiter]

thanks jp ... well said ...

[brucereiter]

keep up the hard work wookie ...

receiving lessons + practice + perseverance + research + patience + practice + experimentation + sharing knowledge + testing theory + more practice! = path to skill

[Shaolin Wookie]

Basically, in any form you have some snap kicks, roundhouses, straight punches, reverse fist punches, thrust kicks, hook kicks(rarely), side kicks, and varying hand forms.

I have something like 20 forms, and all of them use these striking techniques (weapons included). They're not especially difficult. The hardest and most important thing to learn is the delivery system--getting the body into and out of position, moving, balancing, and rotating. I can learn 20 forms, no problem. I can show you a technique for almost any movement, and it doesn't take great intuition to figure them out--just a bit of reflection and creativity. I haven't had all of them given to me by a teacher; and I kind of like it that way, sometimes. Basically, an athletic person can learn any martial art and make it work (capoiera, for instance). But I prefer one you have to reflect about and analyze from several angles. Some of the techniques I was spoon-fed do not work well for me. But I can use the same movements in another way that is infinitely more effective, IMO. I don't really need to be "shown all the techniques". I've been shown them in other material, within that system. Seriously, if I can't figure out why I'm clearing and punching, then I'm a retard. Or if I can't figure out why I'm standing on one leg, with the other chambered(for a defensive block, or an offensive kick), then I'm not very imaginative. I have been shown sparring techs, ippons, and street fighting techs, and chin-na in other SD training material (most of which was learned before any forms whatsoever)---guess what? They're almost all present in the forms, sometimes directly, sometimes dressed up a little differently. If you understand the principle, you can genrally apply it pretty broadly. Its up to you to do that, however. Relying on a teacher to show all the apps is a bit lazy, and kind of demonstrative of a student's lack of intuition. When I ask a teacher a question, it's generally a structural one. But I guarantee that someone who's watched me perform a form one week, will generally see something different in the way I do it the next week. It's generally because of the insights into the movements I get by reflecting on them, and then getting a feel for what feels good, and what doesn't feel good structurally. When I move up a rank, I don't lose any material I've learned up to that point. I just expand on it. I'm still punching, kicking, hopping, sweeping, etc. I just deliver it differently.....and even then, it's not that wild and exotic. Thanks to the stuff I learned at brown belt, my lower belt material is 1000X better. I'm sure that doesn't end. I've seen third degrees perform lower belt forms and barely get through them; and then I've seen other third degrees perform them and totally blow my mind.:cool:

Note: the dude Bruce was doing push hands with in his first posted vid----he showed me Jin Gung Fu Hu Chien once, and it was hands down the best I've ever seen it done.

[brucereiter]

Note: the dude Bruce was doing push hands with in his first posted vid----he showed me Jin Gung Fu Hu Chien once, and it was hands down the best I've ever seen it done.

that "dude" :-) is one of my training brothers and is a inspiration to me for his work ethic.
he trains very hard and works even harder to apply what he has learned and keeps a very humble attitude.

he is one of the few people i know who can do all 49 postures of our version of ie chin ching and do them well. there are many postures i can not do and may never do ... lol ...

[Mas Judt]

Eh, I can't read all of this as I am rather busy, but my response was to what I read. If I inferred something wrong, I apologize, but I do not apologize for my statements.

It comes down to veracity. It is obvious that SD reveres it's founder and beleives him over any objective work or the fact that nobody of consequence takes him seriously.* If it wasn't for the silly claims, there would be no disagreement. However it looks like there may not be an SD either without the melange of stuff.

While you guys are NOT Chung Moo Quan - and I wager you have SOMETHING buried in that melange of misunderstanding, being party to a line of BS and spreading that lie purposely just rubs me the wrong way. Heck, I'm used the being lied to, but the scale of this, the relentlessness of it, it just got to me.

So enjoy it. You can have it. Can't really explain other than you can only take so much dishonesty before felling the need to say 'excuse me, your emperor over there is missing his pants.'




*Because of his issues with honesty.

[Mas Judt]

Some of the private communication I receive gives one hope - there are some decent folks in the SD world - and understand I do not attack you as people, but I do question the ethics of passing on things that are just plain lies.

It is one thing to pass on a questionable oral history. It is another to openly manipulate facts to try and support it (such as the Stele's at the Shaolin temple) or to claim to practice systems in a more complete or accurate fashion than the folks that actually do those original systems.

It's just absurd.

And with today's overwhelming amount of data available it is easier to toss information around gleaned from media - but not learned completely. Heck, even I do that, but at least give credit where credit is due. So, a good analysis of the system would have to be based on SD itself - Sin The' or his brother Hiang.

Based upon the video of NPM by Sin, I hope to god he isn't claiming NPM.

Now I'm done.

And for those of you that shared information on misinformation - thank you. You guys are Kun Tao brothers in some way, even if you don't know it. But remember, just knowing the truth isn't enough, you must live it.

[Leto]

I would love for nothing more than to compare and contrast and talk about the various styles that I have learned and seen. I tried to start such a conversation at an earlier point in the thread, and there was another thread devoted to this which petered out when no one had any more contributions.
The fact of the matter is, I haven't found videos of any crane style which is quite close enough to our crane and bird forms to say that there's a link. I haven't found anything like our black tiger forms anywhere, the shantung black tiger book that is in circulation looks nothing like our hei hu forms. Our brown belt "tiger family" forms, while sharing names with those from some other styles, don't equate. The closest was Lian Wu Zhang, which we talked about for several posts. Not to mention the Lohan short forms, which don't really match up with any other style exactly. Even if not the case with anything else, at least these forms make up a core "style" which is unique from any other. It is evidence, in my eyes, that this wasn't all learned from books or videos. Some part of it, at least, seems to have come from a unique community/family style. A collaboration of various martial artists in the Chinese community of Bandung? Something similar to the jing wu school on the mainland? We can only speculate.

As always, I am more than anxious to see anyone's examples of styles which have an equivalent in SD/CSC, to compare to.

[Mas Judt]

Leto, your going to force me back into this...

The stuff you can't identify is either a.) 'original SD material' or b.) your actual core system. Kung Fu methods get all mixed up in Indonesia - even the Karate influence is not surprising to me... it is the syncretic way of things there.

Any links to these sets or their training methods? This is way more interesting than the SD 'be everything' line.

[Leto]

I haven't found videos of them online anywhere, yet. Believe me, I've looked. There is one video of a couple beginner brown belts joking around, and performing one of the tiger forms very poorly.
Another thing which makes me believe these forms may be unique is the dialect/language used to represent them. I wish I knew what the actual Chinese characters were, to have someone translate them using more common mandarin dialect. It's possible that it may be fujian/min dialect, but I'm not sure.

In mandarin, crane is pronounced "hur", romanized pinyin as "he", right?
Our crane forms are called "hao". Bai hao chuan se, bai hao huan se, bai hao huan jiao. likewise, many of our forms use the romanization "chien" for fist. I know pinyin romanization is "quan", though the actual pronounciation does sound very close to "chien", at least I've heard it spoken that way before.
Chie Chien, and ching kong fu hu chien.
I don't know if the language element means anything, but it may provide a clue to the origins of some of these forms, or at least the people who passed them on to the The family. With the actual characters for these names, we could find out for sure if the "official" translations are correct. I know I saw a list of forms, at one point, with characters and translations hand written. Maybe some of the guys from the east have a copy of it.

If I had a video camera and a space to do it, I'd think about putting up videos of myself doing some of these forms. I would love to hear what outside people have to say about them, if they recognize them or any elements of them.
I keep contemplating using my digital camera, which can make short videos, to do it, but the quality might be poor, and I'd need help from my wife to make sure it keeps me in frame :)

[Mas Judt]

I'd never pick on someone for posting thier practice - although with an 'unknown art' some explanation would be good for the parts you think 'rough.'

[kwaichang]

I have a copy what do you need ?? KC

[Leto]

kwaichang! If the handwritten chinese characters are decipherable, it would be cool to get someone who knows mandarin or cantonese to take a look at them and see how they translate it, and compare to what we've been told the translations are. I know that the Chinese written language can be tricky to translate.

Especially interested in Se Men Tao Lien, Tai Peng Sin Kun, and the brown belt forms. I guess the first step would just be scanning the document, or part of it, so the rest of us can look at it to see if the characters are legible. The next step would be finding the aforementioned Chinese readers, which might be the hard part. :) It might be possible to go through dictionaries looking for the equivalents, too, based on what we think the translation is, but that method is really hit or miss. I've done this already, but without knowing what the actual characters are, I can only guess on what the correct words are.

I'm not really worried about being picked on if I put up a video. (even though I look funny, and people might laugh) I just want to make sure my whole body is in frame, with enough light and at a good camera angle to see everything pretty clearly. And enough open space so that I don't have to modify any steps of the form. Having a school to train in, we take these things for granted sometimes ;)

[kwaichang]

I will try to photograph it and scan it and post it for all to see. KC

[Leto]

thanks, that would be awesome!

I know the language thing may not really be all that important, but it has just bugged me ever since I started CSC. As an assistant instructor, folks would ask me questions when our head instructor would move on to the next group. Anything I didn't know the answer to, I'd say "let's ask teacher when he comes back"...but I know for a fact he doesn't know any more than I do about what the name really means. "reversibly facing four directions"? Just do it. *lol* I like to have more concrete answers for people, even on non-technical issues relating to what I'm teaching.

[kwaichang]

I hope this works and you can read them KC I think they exceed the limit. cant fig how to upload w/o exceed limit.

[NJM]

I hope this works and you can read them KC I think they exceed the limit. cant fig how to upload w/o exceed limit.

Oh, Kwai, go to http://www.imageshack.us and upload your image there. Just paste the image's URL that you get into a forum post so we can view it that way.

[Leto]

That's a better idea than my plan. *lol*, thanks for reminding us of imageshack. photobucket.com works, too.

[kungfujunky]

i have heard Se Men Tao Lien called four doorway break as well



the thing i have noticed with sd/csc is that from white to first/second black we are taught a very truly kun tao/karate like style.

once we get into black belt though the forms and styles truly become more cma in flavor and substance but the translation of the forms into movement is probably different than what others would call cma.

with our early training in snap and power,rooting ,stance work and the drills we do we develop an almost hard like edge to our movements.

although we balance this with our tai chi/chi kung (which truth be told not very many people do well with that i have seen which is really frustrating) there is still our root focus on power generation and defining movements. these principles tend to slow down our forms and make them look choppy or unlike what the true principles of the system would dictate for the style. like tiger crane or pa kua or drunken. these styles take on a flavor that is not theirs but is so ingrained in the way we train we cant really stop it without truly delving into the meanings of each individual style. and since so many of us train for fun and fitness that is why what is posted on the net looks so wrong to some.


if we were to post a pa kua form for instance(or perhaps just 1 kua) and post it i would bet it would look different to most. but if we got constructive advice on how to do it the generally accepted way we could alter a few little things and bam! traditional cma


its not that we dont train in traditional cma. we just train it differently from most. we focus on application, power generation, snap, stances and rooting and the overall well being the training brings us. i.e. health and longevity.



sd/csc has a wealth of kung fu knowledge in it. you just have to get to it through the layers of change that the style has taken to get here.

mas judt just out of curiosity where are you located?

[brucereiter]

if we were to post a pa kua form for instance(or perhaps just 1 kua) and post it i would bet it would look different to most. but if we got constructive advice on how to do it the generally accepted way we could alter a few little things and bam! traditional cma



http://youtube.com/watch?v=eI3mMhNMbLU

[NJM]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eI3mMhNMbLU

I can't tell in the video, but are you stable enough in your stance that I could press hard on your lead hand and you wouldn't fall?

[kwaichang]

I agree are you following the rules of PaKua ? sitting like a tiger etc. KC

[Leto]

i have heard Se Men Tao Lien called four doorway break as well

the thing i have noticed with sd/csc is that from white to first/second black we are taught a very truly kun tao/karate like style.

once we get into black belt though the forms and styles truly become more cma in flavor and substance but the translation of the forms into movement is probably different than what others would call cma.

I have heard it called that, as well. Si (Se) Men is definately four door. But I haven't been able to identify that word "lien" or "lian" as "break" or anything like that. Dao could possibly really be "da", which is strike or hit...but I still can't find a good meaning for "lian" that makes sense in this context. I just don't know enough about the language. With the actual characters we could put this to rest, I hope it's legible! :)

I disagree that we teach a karate like style...maybe kuntao like, but kuntao is supposed to be the Indonesian word for Chinese martial arts, right? The most karate-like part are the one step sparring and techniques at yellow and blue, and the nunchaku spinning, I guess. The forms, right from the beginning, are definately nothing like any Okinawan or Japanese karate kata. The basic staff spins and form are not Okinawan in any way. They maybe taught and practiced in a way that doesn't "flow" really well, but their content is not karate at all. Even the Lohan short forms, while we pratice them in a way that you might see in a karate school, moving from one side of the school to the other, they are not at all like karate basics (and I believe other Chinese arts have drills like this, too, like tan tui).
The only thing that makes people think it looks like karate is the halting manner in which it is performed sometimes (and the fact that we're usually wearing a gi).
If the basic and brown belt forms were performed with the right "flavor", they'd look like "real cma" as well, I believe. I'll test out that theory with my videos, if I ever manage to make them.

I'm sure you're right, the way we are taught early on affects the way we perform the more recognizeable "cma" forms later on, like the drunken style and the hua fist, and the hsing i.

[Mas Judt]

Um, while Karate has influenced some Kun Tao, I would not group the two together. There is a world of difference between most Kun Tao and Karate. You guys do Karate probably because Sin The' learned Karate or elements of it.

[kwaichang]

Yeah right, well the 1-30 are taught one at a time in theory they should be performed as 1 long form with fluidity and flow . The power emphasis at times changes the mechanics/ performance of the tech. I am still trying to figure this uploead thing out. KC:)

[Golden Tiger]

KC, email it to me and i can reduce it using photo editing software I have.

goldentiger2112(at)yahoo.com

[kwaichang]

URL=http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cam3984yz0.jpg]http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/9936/cam3984yz0.th.jpg[/URL]
Is this right ?? KC let me know I will post another KC

[brucereiter]

I can't tell in the video, but are you stable enough in your stance that I could press hard on your lead hand and you wouldn't fall?

A loaded question????
I can assure you I am. I may not represent "forms" to your liking but I am very rooted in my stance and transitions. Strenght through structure is. Concept I pay close attention to because the next thing people say when they can't knock me over is it was because I am 6' 2" and 280 lbs ...
They only way for you to really know would be to press hard on my lead hand and see if I fell ... Lol ...

Do you have a video of your self doing some pakua that might show the attributes you are looking for? I would like to see.

Best

Bruce

[NJM]

http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cam3984yz0.jpg
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/9936/cam3984yz0.th.jpg


Fixed


A loaded question????
I can assure you I am. I may not represent "forms" to your liking but I am very rooted in my stance and transitions. Strenght through structure is. Concept I pay close attention to because the next thing people say when they can't knock me over is it was because I am 6' 2" and 280 lbs ...
They only way for you to really know would be to press hard on my lead hand and see if I fell ... Lol ...

Do you have a video of your self doing some pakua that might show the attributes you are looking for? I would like to see.

Best

Bruce

I assure you my question isn't loaded ,and I never said anything about you doing forms to my liking. It's hard to tell from a video whether or not the stance is correct, and the pressing on the lead hand has always been a way to test the stance's correctness, so I asked, assuming that your teacher had tested you that way at some point. Sheesh.

[unkokusai]

........................cat fight!

[Leto]

the first one is larger than the second, we'll see what we can see. :)

It looks like the lian in lian wu chang may be "linked" or "joined"

comparing the handwriting to the examples here...

http://www.mandarintools.com/cgi-bin/wordlook.pl?word=lian&searchtype=pinyin&where=whole&audio=on

The symbol for "lotus" is very close to the symbol for "linked", and that would be a cool name for a form "five lotus palms" :) . I believe it is "linked five palms" or "connected five palms".

[brucereiter]

Fixed



I assure you my question isn't loaded ,and I never said anything about you doing forms to my liking. It's hard to tell from a video whether or not the stance is correct, and the pressing on the lead hand has always been a way to test the stance's correctness, so I asked, assuming that your teacher had tested you that way at some point. Sheesh.

Sorry about the way that reply sounded I am at lax a baggage claim waiting for my lost bag and I was cranky lol

:-)

[NJM]

Sorry about the way that reply sounded I am at lax a baggage claim waiting for my lost bag and I was cranky lol

:-)

At your request, I did a video of me performing the Ba Gua circle and some basic transitions. Note the skill by which I execute the transitions, and how the hand position reflects how I control the imaginary opponent:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L7p2h2Lgpqg

[brucereiter]

At your request, I did a video of me performing the Ba Gua circle and some basic transitions. Note the skill by which I execute the transitions, and how the hand position reflects how I control the imaginary opponent:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L7p2h2Lgpqg

how did you know rick astly is my favorite ... lol

what style of pakua do you practice?

[arinathos.valin]

LOL! And NJM can do the moves while singing too... that's talent!!:)

Bagualin, thanks for the book title and the generous invitation... I don't get down to KY very often, but if I'm in the area I will let you know! Which school do you teach at?


A few clips of Bagua for comparison...

Master Gary Grooms from SD doing some segments of SD's variation of Jiang Bagua. He may be doing the movements more slowly for demonstration purposes, but I have to admit I was more impressed with some of the other taiji video clips he has out there.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzD7ZSATM


Master Luo JinHua doing the same Jiang style. The music is cheesy, but I love the form...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM
I actually have this video... he breaks each part down into segments in the later parts, showing some of the fajing inherent in the form. Might look 'wushu'ish from the short video, but it looks like he's got a very good grasp on the principles and applications!

Another good resource for baguazhang on YouTube is BlackTaoist... do a search for him. He also does Jiang style bagua. An unorthodox teacher... but some of the demonstrations he has of the form and applications are extremely impressive...

[NJM]

how did you know rick astly is my favorite ... lol

You've just been rickrolled!


what style of pakua do you practice?

The style of Pakua Sun Jian Yun, daughter of Sun Lu Tang, taught to Sigung Kwong Wing Lam who in turn taught it to me, and my Sifu. I only know the basic circle and a few transitions, because bagua is not my specialization and Wing Lam has not been back to Washington in some time.

[kwaichang]

Was not too impressed by Grooms he did not seem to apply the basic principles even with the placing of the feet and why was he doing a wrist lock takedown already on the ground ? any students of M Grooms out there ? KC

[tattooedmonk]

Was not too impressed by Grooms he did not seem to apply the basic principles even with the placing of the feet and why was he doing a wrist lock takedown already on the ground ? any students of M Grooms out there ? KC
Agreed.

The bat falls to the ground (P'ien Luo Hu Ti ) (wrist lock, take down)is done on the way down into the cross legged stance, as I remember it, not once you are in it.

I know Master Grooms is quite knowledgeable in the arts( in general ), however, I heard recently that he got the idea in his head that he was the foremost authority on internal in SD.:rolleyes:

We all know who has that position.;):D
I noticed that you did not refer to him as Master Grooms . Just curious as to why that is!?!:D

[kwaichang]

Just a slip though i would expect more of a televised/computerized demo BY A Senior Master. I feel there is too much liberty with form. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Let's keep it clean, boys.

[kwaichang]

I have personal opinions but i will not express them here. KC

[tattooedmonk]

I have personal opinions but i will not express them here. KCYou could always PM me.:D I am always interested in peoples opinions.:D You were refering to the bat falls to the ground , correct??

[tattooedmonk]

Let's keep it clean, boys.Yes ma'am.:D

[Judge Pen]

Master Grooms always garners different opinions, but that's because of his 'strong' personality. I will say that his applications are top notch. He can use what he teaches even if he performs some of the forms differently than I have been taught.

[arinathos.valin]

*sigh* Have to admit I'd agree with the assessments on the M. Grooms clip... with the caveat that there is only so much one can glean from just watching a video of someone doing the form...

I'm also analyzing a video series on Jiang Bagua by a guy named Gerald Sharp, who had the adopted daughter of Jiang Rong Qiao as one of his teachers. So far I'm actually more impressed with the Luo Jinhua video (if one can get past the goofy english translation), but that may change as I watch them more.

[boshea]

Master Luo JinHua doing the same Jiang style. The music is cheesy, but I love the form...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM
I actually have this video... he breaks each part down into segments in the later parts, showing some of the fajing inherent in the form. Might look 'wushu'ish from the short video, but it looks like he's got a very good grasp on the principles and applications!



Nice video clip! But, what do you mean the music is cheesy? I quite like it! :p

[Chain Whip]

We have seen Pa Kua and Tai Chi clips from Master Grooms and Bruce. Both from Atlanta. Can someone in KY post a Pa Kua and/or Tai Chi clip of Master Leonard or Master Price?

[Baqualin]

We have seen Pa Kua and Tai Chi clips from Master Grooms and Bruce. Both from Atlanta. Can someone in KY post a Pa Kua and/or Tai Chi clip of Master Leonard or Master Price?

M. Grooms & Bruce posted their own clips on youtube.......EML has no You Tube clips nor any desire to....also, he could care less about any of this (including the marketing part MK)
BQ

[Chain Whip]

So, is anyone in KY willing to put their Pa Kua and Tai Chi up on YouTube for scrutiny?

[Judge Pen]

So, is anyone in KY willing to put their Pa Kua and Tai Chi up on YouTube for scrutiny?

I'm sure Golden Tiger or Baqualin can't speak for everyone in KY just like I can't speak for anyone in Tennessee other than me and you can't speak for anyone in ATL other than you.

[Baqualin]

So, is anyone in KY willing to put their Pa Kua and Tai Chi up on YouTube for scrutiny?

I do, but I will have to get someone to film me first...when I do no one will know it's me until later....I want non biased opinions.
BQ

[Chain Whip]

I'm sure Golden Tiger or Baqualin can't speak for everyone in KY just like I can't speak for anyone in Tennessee other than me and you can't speak for anyone in ATL other than you.

Sorry - wasn't suggesting that they could or should. Just looking for a KY or a TN or a TX or a CO version.


I do, but I will have to get someone to film me first...when I do no one will know it's me until later....I want non biased opinions.

Good idea, it should be interesting!

When Bruce first invited people at Empty Flower to look at Master Grooms' Tai Chi DVD trailer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPMbU63Y6Gg - no one seemed to know it was a SD guy. Just a skilled guy with frog buttons. Here are some of the comments:


Quote:
Looks pretty good. What is your teacher's name? Some of the apps shown are pretty simple, but I think that is alright cause it be a video. I envy his squatting SW.



Quote:
Those slow kicks were great!


Quote:
Nice looking vide - good to see a video of somebody promoting the 'Quan' of Taijiquan, espcially with all the no-touch nonsense doing the rounds of the video section at the moment. Looked like good solid applications.


Quote:
Your Sifu has excellent skill,and flexiblity...i like his simple and direct application's...
i also like his teaching style relaxed and straight foward...


Quote:
He moves really, really good. Very smooth and he sure knows how to use his structure and balance. Yes, the apps are very direct and simple, but also very basic. (Both advanced and basic methods can of course be direct and simple.) I would like to see more of what you do in class. Maybe you could take down the camera again and show more stuff from your teacher, apps that he think is to advanced to show here?

[Judge Pen]

Shoot, I would be embarrassed of any of my internal stuff aside from the Hsing Ie. Not that its that great, but its better than my pa kua or tai chi....

Nice finds on the quotes. I don't get over to empty flower very often, how did their attitude change after they found out he was SD?

[Chain Whip]

Pretty much ignored it and went on to the next thing. It's funny that Bruce goes all over the world meeting with people in SD or not in SD and everyone seems to respect his skill and knowledge.

[Judge Pen]

Pretty much ignored it and went on to the next thing. It's funny that Bruce goes all over the world meeting with people in SD or not in SD and everyone seems to respect his skill and knowledge.

I've crossed hands with him, and I respect his skill.

[Chain Whip]

It is hard not to. He can really apply what he has learned. Sometimes Bruce does not get the credit he deserves because of his size.

[Leto]

I made a discovery that may be interesting for some

I've been looking over the copies of the handwritten notes than GM The passes out for forms. I dug up my notes from "pick and play fist", to try to decipher the handwritten characters in that title.

We had talked about how our pick and play fist was very similar if not the same as "Zhai Yao" in other mantis styles. Well, the character for "pick", which GM The spells "tze" is spelled "zhai" in pinyin romanization. and the character which he translated as "sua", or shua in pinyin, for play, is extremely close to the character for "yao", or "important, vital".

摘zhai (to borrow, to pick (flowers, fruit); to pluck, to take, to select)
要yao (important, vital, to want, to be going, must) /
耍 shua (play with, to juggle)

because of the way the handwritten character look, it could very easily be either one. and if GM The inherited them this way, handwritten, from his teacher...

This form very well may have originally been called "zhai yao" an "important selection" or summary of mantis techniques.

[sean_stonehart]

What is taught as "Pick & Play" is very similar to the 4th Zhai Yao routine.

[brucereiter]

Shoot, I would be embarrassed of any of my internal stuff aside from the Hsing Ie. Not that its that great, but its better than my pa kua or tai chi....

Nice finds on the quotes. I don't get over to empty flower very often, how did their attitude change after they found out he was SD?

for the most part people accept it for what it is. only a few people had a strong bias against.

[brucereiter]

Was not too impressed by Grooms he did not seem to apply the basic principles even with the placing of the feet and why was he doing a wrist lock takedown already on the ground ? any students of M Grooms out there ? KC


i am a student of sr master grooms.

[brucereiter]

We have seen Pa Kua and Tai Chi clips from Master Grooms and Bruce. Both from Atlanta. Can someone in KY post a Pa Kua and/or Tai Chi clip of Master Leonard or Master Price?

i posted myself to foster conversation and can only speak for myself. if others feel comfortable putting videos of their practice up it would be interesting to see. i do understand some are just not interested.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Shaolin-Doiscool,

First...I will say this to you...as well as ALL SD students: Any MA which increases in its students a sense of self discipline, respect for oneself/others, balancing of emotions, respect for human life/dignity is..by the very nature of wanting to instill in its students, those qualities..honorable. And I applaud that...not because I am a sifu(I hope to one day however)..but as a human being.

Any critiques of SD I may offer are not related to the above. My criticisms have been based on factual innacuracies. If a historian wrote a book entitled : "World War 1: from 1974-1984"....well..lets just say that most people unless they were under the influence of hallucinogens would say "uh..back up there buddy..WW1 happened before those years"

"thanks for taking the time to reply. i do not mind someone respectfully disagreeing with me and often times debate leads to mutual benefit."

I agree and I also acknowledge that I've been overtly defensive at times..but not because I think SD is the worst art one could study(that honor..may very well belong to "Temple Kungfu")..but I prefer to not have a revisionist history in any area of life..not just kung fu. So when SKT says that he was the "only person ever to have 2 tablets " in honor of him by Shaolin..I just think "aaahh..yeah..and the point is? 2 tablets in honor of what I might add?"


"for example you say: <<Even the fastest style of tai-chi is still ALOT slower than most external arts. If you do Yang style tai chi at Choy Li Fut speed..you have missed the point.>>

how do you figure that to be true? take fair lady works shuttles as the yang tai chi chuan example and what ever external method is a similar block/punch type of movement."



Yes..but you see you are placing emphasis on the MOVEMENT rather than the concept. It is the concept that is key. One could even make the argument that you could take movements from ANY PATTERN of a form of ANY of the kung fu styles known for their external force(I would even include my current style of 8 step preying mantis) and if you slowed it down and modified the intent/breathing/generation of force/mind intent..I could almost create my own form of tai-chi...

"are you implying that a "tai chi" person should apply the movement slower than as you said a choy li fut person? (i might be misunderstanding you)"

Absolutely!!!!

"i think speed is important to all martial arts.

delivering the max mass at the highest rate ... ... ..."



I will defer to Bruce Lee himself when he gave an interview on DVD when he compared the force felt between a "Karate punch" versus a "Kung fu punch". I would enthusuatically recommend picking up a copy..


"are you implying that i do not practice yang tai chi chuan? i say that i do"

I don't study Yang Tai-Chi so I can't say w/ authority. Ask a YTC master/sifu.

[Judge Pen]

but you see you are placing emphasis on the MOVEMENT rather than the concept. It is the concept that is key. One could even make the argument that you could take movements from ANY PATTERN of a form of ANY of the kung fu styles known for their external force(I would even include my current style of 8 step preying mantis) and if you slowed it down and modified the intent/breathing/generation of force/mind intent..I could almost create my own form of tai-chi...

"are you implying that a "tai chi" person should apply the movement slower than as you said a choy li fut person? (i might be misunderstanding you)"

Absolutely!!!!

"i think speed is important to all martial arts.

delivering the max mass at the highest rate ... ... ..."



I will defer to Bruce Lee himself when he gave an interview on DVD when he compared the force felt between a "Karate punch" versus a "Kung fu punch". I would enthusuatically recommend picking up a copy..


"are you implying that i do not practice yang tai chi chuan? i say that i do"

I don't study Yang Tai-Chi so I can't say w/ authority. Ask a YTC master/sifu.


I agree with this concept. I suspect that, based on their applications, so would Master Grooms (the subject of much of this discussion) or my teachers who are not gentle or slow when they teach their applications to tai chi.

Now its an oversimplification to say you can create a tai chi form by slowing down any form or movement to tai chi speed (there's a lot more going on internally than just slowing down the movement to concentrate on the body mechanics behind the movement) but assuming that you observe the tai chi principles of structure and chi cultivation, then I suppose that you would be correct in a sense.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"or my teachers who are not gentle"

There is this misnomer that just because TC is gentle to the touch that it is somehow not powerful. Power can be manifested in many ways.




"or slow when they teach their applications to tai chi."

Certain styles of TC are faster or slower than others..it depends on the family. It is also a misnomer that(not that I'm saying you are saying this Judge Pen) TC is merely just a health based exercise..in actuality...I would never want to fight a tai chi master..it's just too diverse and unpredictable a fighting art. Like trying to grab "water...

""Now its an oversimplification to say you can create a tai chi form by slowing down"


One could slow something down to where it takes 1 hour to do one complete arm movement and STILL not cultivate any chi...

"any form or movement to tai chi speed (there's a lot more going on internally than just slowing down the movement to concentrate on the body mechanics behind the movement)"


However..and this is not a contractiction to my above statement per se..but there is a certain axiomatic tendency to expend more force and deplete more chi as one goes faster...and faster..


"but assuming that you observe the tai chi principles of structure and chi cultivation, then I suppose that you would be correct in a sense."

If you take the concept of Dim Mak and reverse it insofar as taking the acupuncture meridians..one could take the opinion that Dim Mak is reversing the intent of circulating the chi for health promotion. In actuality..the damage inflicted by a master who truly understands the genesis of internal energy would be far more longer lasting than the Karate sensei who would try to shatter your spine to bits with one blow.(insofar as long term organ damage, disruption of consciousness,etc.)

[brucereiter]

erasmus e,

should a tai chi chuan person be fast and powerful?

[Judge Pen]

EM

I think we are in agreement. Tai chi is a devastating fighting art first and formost. Its techniques are fluid and can be yielding when appropriate, but they are not applied in a slow manner like Yang tai chi. They are fast and powerful when the time comes.

[arinathos.valin]

Shaolin-Doiscool,

First...I will say this to you...as well as ALL SD students: Any MA which increases in its students a sense of self discipline, respect for oneself/others, balancing of emotions, respect for human life/dignity is..by the very nature of wanting to instill in its students, those qualities..honorable. And I applaud that...not because I am a sifu(I hope to one day however)..but as a human being.

Any critiques of SD I may offer are not related to the above. My criticisms have been based on factual innacuracies. If a historian wrote a book entitled : "World War 1: from 1974-1984"....well..lets just say that most people unless they were under the influence of hallucinogens would say "uh..back up there buddy..WW1 happened before those years"

"thanks for taking the time to reply. i do not mind someone respectfully disagreeing with me and often times debate leads to mutual benefit."

I agree and I also acknowledge that I've been overtly defensive at times..but not because I think SD is the worst art one could study(that honor..may very well belong to "Temple Kungfu")..but I prefer to not have a revisionist history in any area of life..not just kung fu. So when SKT says that he was the "only person ever to have 2 tablets " in honor of him by Shaolin..I just think "aaahh..yeah..and the point is? 2 tablets in honor of what I might add?"




I think that was very well put, Erasmus.

[brucereiter]

Just a slip though i would expect more of a televised/computerized demo BY A Senior Master. I feel there is too much liberty with form. KC

do you have a video example of how you feel pakua should look?

what liberties do you feel were taken?

i have visited sd several schools in ky, tn, co, idaho, texas and of coarse atlanta and each person who i have seen teaching it and practicing it have done it very differently even within the same school. are they taking liberties?

[Mas Judt]

I think you will find that even in the non-SD oriented schools...

[kwaichang]

Do you have a copy of the 64 rules of PaKua /? Form stems from the rules and they were not exhibited even with the base , stepping. KC

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"do you have a video example of how you feel pakua should look? "

I realize you didn't address this ? to me..but I thought I may take the initiative a little since in 8 step preying mantis...monkey kung fu footwork you would see in a style such as 7 star preying mantis was replaced with Ba Gua/Hsing-I footwork.(I am still learning so I'll admit..I'm not sure if it was REPLACED with BG/HS-I or if BG-HS-I footwork was ADDED to it). I'll ask sifu.

Anyways..

My sifu made the analogy that the circles in all 3 arts look different but ultimately reach the same goal.

BA GUA--think of a circle.. placed on the ground. Think of someone putting a sombrero(mexican hat) flat on the ground and walking around the circumference. In this..one learns the 8 directions of fighting.

Hsing-I/Shing-Yi-- think of a circle but instead thinking of moving circular but forward..such as if one were mimicking the circle of a bicycle tire moving round and round or a car tire moving circular but forward.

Tai Chi Chuan--think of the electrons/protons(I always get them confused) of an atom cirulating all around the orbit of an atoms in multiple directions at once.

This is not the best analogy..but it's the only one I can think of for now...

[brucereiter]

Do you have a copy of the 64 rules of PaKua /? Form stems from the rules and they were not exhibited even with the base , stepping. KC

hi kc,

yes i do have jiang rong qiao's rules as translated and organized by gm sin the'.

i disagree with your observation that they were "not" exhibited. as many of the concepts were to a certain extent displayed. remember i am a student and am not claiming to do things perfectly or to have a perfect understanding but i do exhibit some of the shen fa (body method) as advised but the "64 rules".

i understand you may have a bias against my teacher/school based on many post from you over the years, there is no need for that i am just one student who is sharing what he understands. take it for what it is or leave it.

can or will you show me how you express the "64 rules" with your form? if you can not i would think you are not in a place to tell me in the absolute terms you used what i am doing or not doing with my form.

best,

bruce

p.s. i am trying to build unity between all of our schools.

[kwaichang]

Form like a Dragon
Expression of a Monkey
Sit like a Tiger
Flip like an Eagle

When stepping forward do not raise them too high do it like you are dragging them in the Mud The center or heart of the foot must be hollow toes and heel must hit at the same time. Just a few of the rules not exhibited. KC

[Chain Whip]

KC

I'm guessing this means you won't be posting a video of your Pa Kua - what a surprise!!

[brucereiter]

Form like a Dragon
Expression of a Monkey
Sit like a Tiger
Flip like an Eagle

When stepping forward do not raise them too high do it like you are dragging them in the Mud The center or heart of the foot must be hollow toes and heel must hit at the same time. Just a few of the rules not exhibited. KC

hi kc,

these are all valid things to pay attention to when practicing pakua.
i think i am doing these things as i said to a certain point.

the way you are making it seem with your comments is that you think i am on the wrong track with my practice. i guess you will not understand unless you can feel what i am doing. i hope we can meet and exchange ideas in the near future. which school do you go to?

there are several ways to walk what is shown in my clip is not mud stepping it is heal toe stepping.

do you have or will you make a video to demonstrate what you are saying is lacking in my practice? i am open for advice but i think you are not giving advice you may be sharing your bias.

like i said, i would like to help all of the schools/students communicate better and share information. we are all students and will always no matter how skilled we become be able to learn more and refine what we already know.

best,

bruce

[tattooedmonk]

hi kc,

these are all valid things to pay attention to when practicing pakua.
i think i am doing these things as i said to a certain point.

the way you are making it seem with your comments is that you think i am on the wrong track with my practice. i guess you will not understand unless you can feel what i am doing. i hope we can meet and exchange ideas in the near future. which school do you go to?

there are several ways to walk what is shown in my clip is not mud stepping it is heal toe stepping.

do you have or will you make a video to demonstrate what you are saying is lacking in my practice? i am open for advice but i think you are not giving advice you may be sharing your bias.

like i said, i would like to help all of the schools/students communicate better and share information. we are all students and will always no matter how skilled we become be able to learn more and refine what we already know.

best,

bruce You can still do heel /toe stepping but you should be doing the mud stepping as well. The rear foot should graze the inside of the front calf as you are stepping forward,( you should be scraping mud off of your rear foot as it passes the calf),( you need to actually touch the calf ), once you place it back down you plant with your heel then with your toe.

reverse if you are stepping backwards.

alot of people think that you should be placing both the heel and toe down at the same time but this will look and feel like you are stomping . It only appears to be landing at the same time. You are still going heel to toe it is just very subtle and unnoticable to the untrained eye.

[kwaichang]

I do not have a vid I will be glad to W/O with you guys though. None the less the rules do not say heel toe it says at the same time. I did not write the rules etc. I am sorry you feel I am bias but I am if the rules as I read them are not followed I dont care who the individual is. The form is of M Grooms and unless that is you I dont feel you should take my comments personally. KC PS if you raise the foot to the height of the calf perhaps that is too high , and in that case it would look like stomping try it ankle height instead. The rules say through the mud not over the mud. KC

[kwaichang]

I will show you what I think and the rules , my vid would not exhibit perfect form of the rules and would misrepresent what I am trying to convey through the rules with form. I am not perfect in form only am trying to get closer to the ideal. KC:)

[Baqualin]

First thanks to Bruce and everyone reaching out from all the schools, that's what it's all about.....we should learn from each other...bottom line... we all have the same teacher GMS

OK, Classical Pakua is very flowing like Tai Chi...never stops or hesitates...strikes are not accented, they flow in the form like water (not in application, just in the form)....stepping is also flowing, kinda like KC said through the mud...by doing this you can place toe & heel at the same time...gliding.....& your pants should brush between the ankle and calf, any higher and you look like your hopping (which is very common with most SD people). You should also see in the form what your attacking, what your attacking with, what your locking up or breaking and so forth.
BQ

Keep in mind That we're talking about Classical only.

[tattooedmonk]

I do not have a vid I will be glad to W/O with you guys though. None the less the rules do not say heel toe it says at the same time. I did not write the rules etc. I am sorry you feel I am bias but I am if the rules as I read them are not followed I dont care who the individual is. The form is of M Grooms and unless that is you I dont feel you should take my comments personally. KC PS if you raise the foot to the height of the calf perhaps that is too high , and in that case it would look like stomping try it ankle height instead. The rules say through the mud not over the mud. KCI was taught more or less the same thing, but following the rules I have found that brushing the arch of the foot along the lower part of the calf is along the line of the rules as the are printed in many publications( including the CSC manual), to create a proper distance between each step. Like I said it has the appearence and the feel of placing it down at one time. It is almost silmutanious, meaning that the heel to toe stepping is more exagerated in Tai Ji quan than in Ba Gua Zhang.


Another reason I say this is becuase if you are walking through mud you have to clean off you shoes as you go so they do not bog you down , which wil eventually happen. and the only way to do this is by taking it out of the mud slightly to scrape it off. I think sometime the rules are taken too literally and other times not enough, if at all .

If you were walking through the mud you would eventually get bogged down and not beable to move because of all the mud right??

I am just thinking realistically that is all.

This is how the weight is distributed evenly from the back leg to the front . It is ever so slight . This also follows proper body mechanics, and use of the kinetic chain from hips, upper legs , knees, lower legs , ankles, and feet.

The heel to to toe thing happens so close to the ground I would say that you almost do place it down at the same time.

I feel this is where the two arts over lap.

Just my experience . Not to say either one is wrong or right , just different , we are SD brothers.:D

I say split the difference.

[JonathanD]

I know Master Grooms is quite knowledgeable in the arts( in general ), however, I heard recently that he got the idea in his head that he was the foremost authority on internal in SD.:rolleyes:


I heard that exact same thing. Quite a bold statement if you ask me.

[JonathanD]

Do you have a copy of the 64 rules of PaKua /? Form stems from the rules and they were not exhibited even with the base , stepping. KC

I do, and it's an intense read.

[Chain Whip]

First thanks to Bruce and everyone reaching out from all the schools, that's what it's all about.....we should learn from each other...bottom line... we all have the same teacher GMS

Might be the best thing any SD person has said on this forum.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Nope. Not even close. Here's the best posts (not SD people, though):



just remember to shave your runway! :eek:


You coming in for a landing?

[kwaichang]

I have been accused of not being a team player as it were in SD and by being critical of M Grooms. I re read the rules slowly so as not to miss anything and looked at the movie of M Grooms. If calling things the way I see them is disrespectful then OK. But if one has the rules and understands them and still does the form different , on purpose, than the rules call for, then that in itself is what makes others question the quality and realness of SD. If we are all students of GMT " those of us that are" and those continue to perform it "wrong" that is sad for what ever the reason. How can 4 different Senior Masters do the same form so different if they all know the rules ?? KC

[synack]

I see this all the time in SD. I know in the CSC, you might have 3 different people show you the same thing. ALL DIFFERENTLY. VERY annoying.

I don't think this is limited to M Grooms. It's a problem with the system. Too much to learn in to short of time.

[Baqualin]

I see this all the time in SD. I know in the CSC, you might have 3 different people show you the same thing. ALL DIFFERENTLY. VERY annoying.

I don't think this is limited to M Grooms. It's a problem with the system. Too much to learn in to short of time.

Your very correct...I see it in all schools including ours...not just SD/CSC....GMS gives us the tools...it's up to us to learn how to use them....he wants us to research & study...as I said before, most people in the system are everyday working people who have a life outside of SD/CSC & don't practice & study outside of their class. My anwser to to much to fast is to SLOW down smell the roses....work you way to Blk belt at you own pace then decide what you like best and focus on that. Regarding the differences in the masters...people are people.....everyone has their take on things and it's hard to over come that when the system has got as large as SD/CSC... the ego differences will not let everyone work as a unit.....GMS has tried to standardize everything, but everybody wants to do their own thing...now look what we have now.....politics!!:D
BQ

I'm really glad to see all the students from both sides trying to get to know each other...that can change things.
BQ

[Chain Whip]

Your very correct...I see it in all schools including ours...not just SD/CSC....GMS gives us the tools...it's up to us to learn how to use them....he wants us to research & study...as I said before, most people in the system are everyday working people who have a life outside of SD/CSC & don't practice & study outside of their class. My anwser to to much to fast is to SLOW down smell the roses....work you way to Blk belt at you own pace then decide what you like best and focus on that. Regarding the differences in the masters...people are people.....everyone has their take on things and it's hard to over come that when the system has got as large as SD/CSC... the ego differences will not let everyone work as a unit.....GMS has tried to standardize everything, but everybody wants to do their own thing...now look what we have now.....politics!!
BQ

I'm really glad to see all the students from both sides trying to get to know each other...that can change things.
BQ

Great post BQ. Very well said. The differences between various people in SD should not create animosity. Obviously, GMT has a different outlook. He signed the Master level certificates for all of the Master’s in our art. The problem stems from teachers saying “this way is right – everyone else is wrong” A great example was a few years back EM Leonard taught a Tai Chi Broadsword Two-Man Set seminar in Atlanta. It was a fair bit different than what SM Grooms was doing – not bad – not wrong – just different. A couple of years later SM Grooms has to teach the same form to people in the Internal Program. To try avoiding any controversy he pulled out the video of him learning the form with EM Mingione as GMT talks them through it. He made sure that what was taught out was exactly what he learned from GMT. If you put the video of EM Leonard teaching Tai Chi Broadsword Two-Man set next to the one of GMT teaching it, they have several significant differences. SM Grooms passed on exactly what he was taught by his teacher. SM Grooms doesn’t think EM Leonard is wrong but he has to pass on what HE was taught.

[kwaichang]

A persons application of a technique may be different but the technique should be based upon what they are taught and the rules . If this is done we should all do the technique the same or close. Much closer than some of the observations I have made. So how do these MAJOR changes come about. ?? I think it is ego everyone wants to do their own thing, they dont call their art SD as GMT calls it they call it something else like Shaolin Kung fu or CSC or Shaolin Tao. Everyone wants to be the big fish. If this offends I appologize but I just call it the way I see it. There is GMT then EM Leonard then EM Smith then the others I am not sure of the total order . Sorry guys but that is the pecking order and that is how it is. It is based on rank and time in the art. PERIOD. Not vague claims. KC As for me and mine I follow that order. I respect them all but show my allegance to GMT and his students based upon their rank and time in the art and their allegance to GMT and SD. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm not trying to troll you KC, or start up anything, but that's even what GM The' did. His brother split off to teach another program with a different structure, called Chung Yen (apparently the name of the school in Indonesia). GM The' called his Shaolin-do. I'm willing to bet neither is a reproduction of the Indonesian school, and I'm sure the Indonesian school was not a reproduction of the way GGM Ie Chang Ming learned from GGGM Su Kong. Just like I'm sure the CSC isn't verbatim Shaolin-do.

Labeling it ego shouldn't really be pejorative. Ego is I. The person practicing the art is the art in action. It's always going to change according to personal preference, physical ability, and geography. Nobody is the same. Some day GM The' is going to pass on (hopefully far in the future). But definately in our lifetimes. Will SD and CSC remain bonded?

From hints of tensions on this board, and rumors that circulate, I'd speculate they'll just co-exist without any interaction whatsoever outside of private liaisons. I'm not trying to be an @$$hole....it just doesn't seem (from tensions on this board, and various PM's), that there would be an heir to the system that would be as accepting and unifying a force as GM The'.

What will happen then?
What's your opinion? Again...not meant to troll. Just thinking.

[tattooedmonk]

that I am of the same mind as BQ , we all are here for the same reason and have been influenced and taught by GMS, without him we would not know or have what it is that we do. Everyone is going to find differences in their material because of interpretations and perceptions . This does not make one person right and another person wrong, just different .

As long as we follow by the rules and guidlines set out by the ancient masters we could make MMA into a traditional and internal art!!!:eek::p;):D

[kwaichang]

But, if you are taught a straight punch 20 years ago in a form, for example, and the rule says the elbow brushes the side, then why is the punch changed to a hook punch. When a student whatever the level changes what they are taught then something is lost. What I have seen from the upper powers is a MAJOR change for the sake of change. This to me spells disaster for our style as it discredits us all. The changes I am talking about are blatant. I am not talking application. Later KC

[brucereiter]

But, if you are taught a straight punch 20 years ago in a form, for example, and the rule says the elbow brushes the side, then why is the punch changed to a hook punch. When a student whatever the level changes what they are taught then something is lost. What I have seen from the upper powers is a MAJOR change for the sake of change. This to me spells disaster for our style as it discredits us all. The changes I am talking about are blatant. I am not talking application. Later KC

kc,

what do you think some of the "major" changes to forms are with yang/chen tai chi chuan, classical "original" pakua, hsingi?

best,

bruce

p.s. take a look at some more of my practice if you like. some of what is shown is not so good and some of what is shown is ok.

http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

[kwaichang]

Your form seems OK I think if you used your legs more and dropped your center your deflection would be more effective. Just an opinion . also I feel the changes are more in the Classical pakua and Taichi Yang. I have not seen others Chen so cant judge. Mostly the changes seem to be in the other external stuff 2-5th Black level. KC:cool::D:eek::confused::):mad::p:o:(

[brucereiter]

I have been accused of not being a team player as it were in SD and by being critical of M Grooms. I re read the rules slowly so as not to miss anything and looked at the movie of M Grooms. If calling things the way I see them is disrespectful then OK. But if one has the rules and understands them and still does the form different , on purpose, than the rules call for, then that in itself is what makes others question the quality and realness of SD. If we are all students of GMT " those of us that are" and those continue to perform it "wrong" that is sad for what ever the reason. How can 4 different Senior Masters do the same form so different if they all know the rules ?? KC

hi kc,

here are several examples of jiangs rong qiao "original" form pakua aka "classical pakua"

you will note each person demonstrates different ways of approaching the same style.


starting with my understanding, this is me ... i am no expert as you may see but i am getting better all the time ... lol ...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tKOjfBuc5TA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eI3mMhNMbLU

below are a few clips, some are known masters, teachers and some are just plain old students.

Jin Liangchan
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCn7pOKMW0Y

novell bell
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q5qi5TTCUvU

ben hill
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-UhZ3PYOAt8

m grooms
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4044921926652657971&q=pakua&total=271&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7

Luo Jinhua
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM

if anyone has any other demonstrations of this style of pakua they can link please do ...

best,

bruce

p.s.

this is just for entertainment ... lol ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIYrIgy5t-I

[brucereiter]

Your form seems OK I think if you used your legs more and dropped your center your deflection would be more effective. Just an opinion . also I feel the changes are more in the Classical pakua and Taichi Yang. I have not seen others Chen so cant judge. Mostly the changes seem to be in the other external stuff 2-5th Black level. KC:cool::D:eek::confused::):mad::p:o:(

true about dropping my center ...

can you explain some of the changes/differences with yang 64 and with classical pakua.

the external stuff i really do not know about ...

best,

bruce

[kwaichang]

When I say changes I mean differences, some train Yang 64 at a 30 minute pace some 20, at times the angle and stance are different some do it with the front and back foot in line and some off line. some have more waist and others do not. These are just observations I have made, also Hsing Ie seems to be the one with the biggest differences. For example the three Body stance seems to have a different meaning in Colorado Tennessee Texas and Atlanta from what I have seen. I try to maintain the triangle of my stance. if it is a short bostance then it does not maintain the definition of the 3 body stance. As I was taught. KC

[brucereiter]

When I say changes I mean differences, some train Yang 64 at a 30 minute pace some 20, at times the angle and stance are different some do it with the front and back foot in line and some off line. some have more waist and others do not. These are just observations I have made, also Hsing Ie seems to be the one with the biggest differences. For example the three Body stance seems to have a different meaning in Colorado Tennessee Texas and Atlanta from what I have seen. I try to maintain the triangle of my stance. if it is a short bostance then it does not maintain the definition of the 3 body stance. As I was taught. KC

i have also seen very different understandings expressed from the various schools i have visited.

i have heard some say they practice the yang 64 for at a pace that takes them 30-50 minutes to complete. i think that is too slow.

i do it 3 basic ways:
"fast" round about 4-5 minutes
"normal" round 10-13 minutes
"long" round about 20 minutes.

in my practice i will do yang 64 back to back several times. sometimes i will go very slow pace and others a bit fast but the important part in my opinion is not how slow i go but how connected my movements are.

i understand your thought on san ti, i have observed many versions of it from all the "groups" you mentioned. i think the height of the "bo stance" is not as important as the body alignment. but you should do it as you are taught and also as you discover from practicing what you were taught.

another question i will repeat is do you think gmt could have taught (lets use yang 64 as the example) differently to the various masters/teachers/students that he has taught one on one or in a class setting.

best

bruce

[Golden Tiger]

another question i will repeat is do you think gmt could have taught (lets use yang 64 as the example) differently to the various masters/teachers/students that he has taught one on one or in a class setting.


Move for move, yes. Master Sin has never been a big stickler for "this hand must go right here " everytime as opposed to Master Hiang who was. And there will always be some variation when someone learns and does a form. Personally, I think spending a lot of time on it is missing the forest for the trees.

But having said that, I can see a lot of differences in the forms from when they were first taught (yes, I was there for most of them) and drilled and drilled and drilled and some of the versions today. I think what happened is a dilution effect. Some popped up to the Sports Center, learned something once, took notes (this was in the days of 200lb camcorders mind you) then never took the time to soilidify the foundation of what the particular form had to offer.

So it comes as no suprise that when some of us see obvious additions, subtractions and just plain wrong stuff being done, we do stop and just shake our heads at it.

[Baqualin]

Move for move, yes. Master Sin has never been a big stickler for "this hand must go right here " everytime as opposed to Master Hiang who was. And there will always be some variation when someone learns and does a form. Personally, I think spending a lot of time on it is missing the forest for the trees.

But having said that, I can see a lot of differences in the forms from when they were first taught (yes, I was there for most of them) and drilled and drilled and drilled and some of the versions today. I think what happened is a dilution effect. Some popped up to the Sports Center, learned something once, took notes (this was in the days of 200lb camcorders mind you) then never took the time to soilidify the foundation of what the particular form had to offer.

So it comes as no suprise that when some of us see obvious additions, subtractions and just plain wrong stuff being done, we do stop and just shake our heads at it.

You always pop in just to show how smart you are.;)

[Daniel09]

I wish I could learn this stuff properly, but I don't have anyone or anything to learn by. Everything I can find only explains the concept and I can't afford to go anywhere.

On a happier note, I've figured out how to fall properly (aka without hurting myself). :D

[kwaichang]

I originally stated SD in 1981 at that time the first 6 of 1-30 were taught in 6 months. Maybe the speed it is taught attributes to the differences. Not the amount of material KC:D

[Leto]

yes KC, I think you are right. Now they try to teach over 20 long forms in less than 2 years, not to mention all the other beginning material. It's too much. I really wish there could have been more time spent on drills and conditioning for the various styles and weapons. The way it's taught in the west, it's like "here's this month's form, hurry up and learn it. we're spending four weeks learning this martial arts style, next month it's something different. So you better come to every class if you don't want to miss something!". I spent three years doing it that way, and stopped. Now I've backtracked to spend the last two years on my own, internalizing the stuff I learned, mostly the material through first black, and some forms I learned from GM The. I don't plan on re-entering the "system" any time soon...I have enough material to keep me occupied for a long time.
There is a wealth of awesome application just in the black tiger forms, which takes a lot of practice to master. There is no way one month can get you anywhere close to knowing it all. (I realize that the forms are revisited every year at the same time, but doing 20 things once a year is a very slow and inefficient way to learn. It would take you at least ten years doing it that way to become as proficient as if you spent one solid year practicing it. )

The average student would be a lot more solid if they had the opportunity to train the way you guys did "back in the day". Someone should do something about that ;)

[tattooedmonk]

yes KC, I think you are right. Now they try to teach over 20 long forms in less than 2 years, not to mention all the other beginning material. It's too much. I really wish there could have been more time spent on drills and conditioning for the various styles and weapons. The way it's taught in the west, it's like "here's this month's form, hurry up and learn it. we're spending four weeks learning this martial arts style, next month it's something different. So you better come to every class if you don't want to miss something!". I spent three years doing it that way, and stopped. Now I've backtracked to spend the last two years on my own, internalizing the stuff I learned, mostly the material through first black, and some forms I learned from GM The. I don't plan on re-entering the "system" any time soon...I have enough material to keep me occupied for a long time.
There is a wealth of awesome application just in the black tiger forms, which takes a lot of practice to master. There is no way one month can get you anywhere close to knowing it all. (I realize that the forms are revisited every year at the same time, but doing 20 things once a year is a very slow and inefficient way to learn. It would take you at least ten years doing it that way to become as proficient as if you spent one solid year practicing it. )

The average student would be a lot more solid if they had the opportunity to train the way you guys did "back in the day". Someone should do something about that ;)BINGO!!!:D;):cool:

[kwaichang]

When I learned the 1-30 I tried to do each one 500 times then the next etc. I feel 1st BB should take 5 years so as to promote a good foundation. Many years ago I had a teacher that made you do the forms you had learned for the previous belt before learning the next , we didnt even get to see the next form until we had done that . KC

[Daniel09]

What are the 1-30? And can they be explained in text so that I could try it?

[kungfujunky]

number 1 block punch block down step

got it?

[Daniel09]

I think so. What's a down step and what kind of block? I'm not knowledgable of what the names for different activities are.

[tattooedmonk]

I think so. What's a down step and what kind of block? I'm not knowledgable of what the names for different activities are.This might help a little more than that. # 1. Step forward into a bow and arrow stance ( gong bu). If the right leg is forward then the left arm should be out in front doing a horizontal fist punch ( shoulder height) and the right hand should be pulled into your hip (Do not rest it on your hip), next, the left arm is going to horizontally block high, above your head at a right angle as the right arm thrusts forward into a horizontal fist punch( where the previous fist was) then you are going to block down with both of your forearms about waist height and at a 45 degree angle, then step forward............ Make sure your hips , shoulders ,and feet are square and in alignment. Meaning that you should be able to draw a line from your right foot , hip, and shoulder. Same for the other side. Get it??

[Golden Tiger]

If the right leg is forward then the left arm should be out in front doing a horizontal fist punch ( shoulder height) and the right hand should be pulled into your hip (Do not rest it on your hip), next, the left arm is going to horizontally block high, above your head at a right angle The blocking hand should stop at the temple, palm out, knuckles aligned slighty behind the corner of the eyeas the right arm thrusts forward into a horizontal fist punch( where the previous fist was)while rotating the shoulders from a perpindicular line of the hips to a straight line, beginning the drive from the left foot, through the hips, finally to the shoulders (serial linkage) then you are going to block down with both of your forearms about waist height the left hand should make an arcing path from the head to rest near the left hip, the right also making an arc to the outside in, snapping the fist to palm up to snap the forearm just prior to the stop, stopping in line with the body, elbow pinky to thumb length from the bottom rib, bent at a 45 deg. angle, fist slightly below the line of sightand at a 45 degree angle, then step forward............ Make sure your hips , shoulders ,and feet are square and in alignment. Meaning that you should be able to draw a line from your right foot , hip, and shoulder. Same for the other side. Get it??


See, same form, taught a million times, practiced even more, with subtle differences....go figure

[Chain Whip]

When I learned the 1-30 I tried to do each one 500 times then the next etc. I feel 1st BB should take 5 years so as to promote a good foundation. Many years ago I had a teacher that made you do the forms you had learned for the previous belt before learning the next , we didnt even get to see the next form until we had done that . KC

Building a solid foundation with 1-30 is critical for development in our art. We don't care much about time in the art as much as what you have done since your first class. An athletically gifted student who works very hard should progress a lot faster than an average athlete who doesn't practice hard at all. (GMT went from white belt to 10th black in 18 years. So, traditionally advancement must have been merit based and not seniority based. Our current time frames say it is a minimum of 56 years to reach 10th Black - 16 years minimum to get to 5th Black)

Doing each short form 500 times is a great idea - as is actually doing all 49 I Chin Ching every week. We have always required that a person be able to do all the previous material. To test for 5th Black for instance, the evaluation covers all the test material for every earlier rank. You never know what order you will have to perform it in. You might do a couple of tiger forms followed by brown belt weapons and then have to do 1-30 out of sequence - something like odd numbers only ascending and then do the even numbers descending - and still get done in 3 minutes. You might have to start in the middle of a couple of forms. You have to do all 5 levels of Classical Pa Kua training, know all the I Chin Ching from memory. So, you essentially have to do all of your previous tests with additional twists to make it more difficult. GMT will only test on the material in that rank when he comes to town (be a really long test otherwise) But the person standing in front of GMT is capable of doing any and every earlier rank test - but better than when they initially tested . We pride ourselves on having all this material, but if you aren't still doing the things you learned 10 years ago then you really don't have that much material anyway. One of the best quotes about our system - I think it comes from EM Smith, is: "The best thing about our system is we have all this material. The worst thing about our system is we have all this material."

[Daniel09]

If the right leg is forward then the left arm should be out in front doing a horizontal fist punch ( shoulder height) and the right hand should be pulled into your hip (Do not rest it on your hip), next, the left arm is going to horizontally block high, above your head at a right angle The blocking hand should stop at the temple, palm out, knuckles aligned slighty behind the corner of the eyeas the right arm thrusts forward into a horizontal fist punch( where the previous fist was)while rotating the shoulders from a perpindicular line of the hips to a straight line, beginning the drive from the left foot, through the hips, finally to the shoulders (serial linkage) then you are going to block down with both of your forearms about waist height the left hand should make an arcing path from the head to rest near the left hip, the right also making an arc to the outside in, snapping the fist to palm up to snap the forearm just prior to the stop, stopping in line with the body, elbow pinky to thumb length from the bottom rib, bent at a 45 deg. angle, fist slightly below the line of sightand at a 45 degree angle, then step forward............ Make sure your hips , shoulders ,and feet are square and in alignment. Meaning that you should be able to draw a line from your right foot , hip, and shoulder. Same for the other side. Get it??


See, same form, taught a million times, practiced even more, with subtle differences....go figure

Thanks! That makes sense and I'll make sure to practice it to the point where a line can be drawn from my foot to hip to shoulder. This'll take me awhile to get somewhat correct so I'll probably inquire step two in a few weeks or possibly a month or two.

[tattooedmonk]

If the right leg is forward then the left arm should be out in front doing a horizontal fist punch ( shoulder height) and the right hand should be pulled into your hip (Do not rest it on your hip), next, the left arm is going to horizontally block high, above your head at a right angle The blocking hand should stop at the temple, palm out, knuckles aligned slighty behind the corner of the eyeas the right arm thrusts forward into a horizontal fist punch( where the previous fist was)while rotating the shoulders from a perpindicular line of the hips to a straight line, beginning the drive from the left foot, through the hips, finally to the shoulders (serial linkage) then you are going to block down with both of your forearms about waist height the left hand should make an arcing path from the head to rest near the left hip, the right also making an arc to the outside in, snapping the fist to palm up to snap the forearm just prior to the stop, stopping in line with the body, elbow pinky to thumb length from the bottom rib, bent at a 45 deg. angle, fist slightly below the line of sightand at a 45 degree angle, then step forward............ Make sure your hips , shoulders ,and feet are square and in alignment. Meaning that you should be able to draw a line from your right foot , hip, and shoulder. Same for the other side. Get it??


See, same form, taught a million times, practiced even more, with subtle differences....go figureThanks for your help!:D:cool:

[Shaolin Wookie]

Ouch!!!! I kicked the friggin' corner of my bed this morning when I was stumbling around, getting ready for work! I'm limping like a war vet with shrapnel in his foot.

Them dar beds is lethal weapons, ya' here!:mad:

Why do they have to be made of that super-metal adamantium bone-shattering alloy?

Right on the top of the foot, too. Not a usual stubbed toe. Not a good morning at all.

[John Dufresne]

OK GUYS I GUESS YOU HAVE ABOUT SAID IT ALL. I JUST WISH I HAD THE TIME WASTED BY US ALL TO TRAIN EVEN MORE IN SD. BUT ALAS I DO NOT AND I TOO HAVE CAST MY PEARLS BEFORE SWINE. YOU ALL SAY THAT SD IS NOT THE REAL DEAL BUT ALL YOU DO IS OFFER HERESAY AND A SMIDGEN A VERY SMALL SMIDGEN OF TRUTH AT BEST. SO SINCE YOU CANT PROVE OR DISPROVE ANYTHING LET ME SAY YOU ARE JUST JEALOUS.
I HAVE FOUND IN LIFE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE ENVIOUS OF SOMETHING TYPICALLY TRY TO MAKE IT INTO A LIE OR SAY BAD OR UNTRUE THINGS, IT IS HUMAN NATURE. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE AN ITEMIZED LIST OF FALSEHOODS OF THE SD SYSTEM NUMBERED SO WE CAN DEBATE THEM 1 BY 1.
HOW ABOUT IT TWS I KNOW YOU BEST AND WHY YOU ARE SO DETERMINED TO SAY SD IS NOT FROM THE SHAO-LIN TEMPLES IS BEYOND ME YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE AN EGO . SO HERE IS ALL YOU GUYS CHANCE TO ITEMIZE AND PROVE YOUR WAY OF THINKING ONCE AND FOR ALL. THIS IS A CHALLENGE TO ALL WHO FEEL SD IS NOT SHAOLIN. KC:o

Hehehehe

Should we begin at 1?
Shaolin---------Chinese
Karate Do-----Japanese
or 2?
From Indonesia; neither place
or 3?
I was there!!
Oh Im sorry 1 more small bit of trivia- I spent the last 20 years travelling to and from China and I have been to North Shaolin as well as Putian (Southern Shaolin) I was the coach of the US Team to the first Nan Shaolin Competition in 1994; FYI no one knows him or SD or anything that resembles the forms they do.

I remember first hand being in Beijing while working out with the Beijing team when he brough a group from Lexington to china to errect a monument at the Shaolin Temple that was paid for by the students who traveled with them. Not because of some liniage to the Temple- anyone can buy a monument there-- they were trying to collect funds for restorations to the temple at that time. Many american schools have monuments there. But it was said to those students that the whole reason to traveled there was in honor of the rising of this monument in the name of SD. Some what decieving dont you think?I spoke with Chen Guan Shi (Monk at North Shaolin Hunan) he told me personally "they laughed when SD students demonstrated their forms" while they visited there.

Anyway sorry why am I even typing? What is the truth something that is said but not done or something done but not said? Everyone knows the truth- if we refuse to hear the truth its only because we have listed to lie's to long, we loose the ability to hear the truth.

[kwaichang]

How can we debate this and I guess you should be believed ?? Your point is ???? KC

[John Dufresne]

How can we debate this and I guess you should be believed ?? Your point is ???? KC

How can "we" debate? Well you cant- you were not there---I was -I dont have to prove or disprove!
"it is what it is"!
Are you a student? be one listen and be silent

[John Dufresne]

How can "we" debate? Well you cant- you were not there---I was -I dont have to prove or disprove!
"it is what it is"!
Are you a student? be one listen and be silent

Oh and one more thing you can debate all you want with other of this forum about what was or what might have happened. But you are talking to me- I refuse to hear lies by someone who has NOT A CLUE! who was not there- and dont tell me that you heard from someone who heard it from someone who taught someone else.
I am giving it to you straight--- If you choose to live in a fantasy go right ahead- the people of this forum were obviously trying to help you not hurt. Sometimes truth can be painful the further away we go.

[tattooedmonk]

So what ?? I mean people laugh and poke fun at just about anyone and/or anything. Some people will say it is real and some people will say it is made up, etc. But just because you come here all of a sudden and say things that many people before you have said , are we are just suppose to say"oh now we know SD is not real chinese martial arts ,etc.because this guy says so, case closed."???

Give it a rest already and get over yourself.:rolleyes:

I admire the skill that it takes to master wushu but I would laugh right in your face if you said you could use it to fight or defend yourself. At least we know that SD works for this purpose and we have a good time doing it and learning it , which is all that really matters. The stories legends , lineage ,etc. really do not matter in the grand scheme of things all that matters is that it works. :D

[kwaichang]

"Are you a student? be one listen and be silent. "

I am not your student and dont care to be . If you are who you say you are then you should have been taught respect and discipline 1st. You are just rude and arrogant. Not the personality of a true master. Wu Shu well I wont even comment on it not worth my time. KC

[MasterKiller]

Ouch!!!! I kicked the friggin' corner of my bed this morning when I was stumbling around, getting ready for work! I'm limping like a war vet with shrapnel in his foot.

Them dar beds is lethal weapons, ya' here!:mad:

Why do they have to be made of that super-metal adamantium bone-shattering alloy?

Right on the top of the foot, too. Not a usual stubbed toe. Not a good morning at all.

Do you live in a prison? Who the hell sleeps in a metal bed?

[Chain Whip]

I remember first hand being in Beijing while working out with the Beijing team when he brough a group from Lexington to china to errect a monument at the Shaolin Temple that was paid for by the students who traveled with them.


I spoke with Chen Guan Shi (Monk at North Shaolin Hunan) he told me personally "they laughed when SD students demonstrated their forms" while they visited there.

I hope you are better with your other "facts" than this. You are speaking of the 1992 Trip where the Soards - not GMT brought a group primarily from Denver – not Lexington and saw the unveiling of the marker paid for by the Soards -not the people on the trip. The Head Abbott was there and was kind and pleasant. There was no laughing at the demo (however most of it was pretty poor other than one Hua and the Drunken Spear form) it seems you are indicating that these "honorable" monks were so disingenuous as to laugh behind our backs instead of to GMT's face.

[John Dufresne]

I hope you are better with your other "facts" than this. You are speaking of the 1992 Trip where the Soards - not GMT brought a group primarily from Denver – not Lexington and saw the unveiling of the marker paid for by the Soards -not the people on the trip. The Head Abbott was there and was kind and pleasant. There was no laughing at the demo (however most of it was pretty poor other than one Hua and the Drunken Spear form) it seems you are indicating that these "honorable" monks were so disingenuous as to laugh behind our backs instead of to GMT's face.

No Im not "GMT" was there -so was I -were you?
Arogant? I get alittle ****ed off at being called a lier from people that have no clue- I dont know you- find out who your talking with before you make such big claims youself.
I really dont care (consdering the source) what you think of me- You are speaking from the mouth of other people- you dont know the history other than what you have been told. So for that "I forive you" Bt dont continue to argue a point with someone that was there- I NEVER made any claims- everyone else has- a statement was made- I am the proof- that is why I answered. Why is my language so hard for you to understand? The truth is the truth. You can tell me that peaches come from pair tree's till your blue in the face. I judge the by the fruit not what someone is telling me what type of a tree you come from.
By the way sonny- If you think im arogant- look at yourself befor youmake your claim-you are the one arguing with someone that has studied MA for 45 years. Have some respect- By the way who are you anyway? I am on here with my real name

[kwaichang]

You are on here to toot your own horn. The fact that you were there means nothing it just means you were there the Swords gave GMT one stone and Lex the other. So what. That does not disprove anything about Sd and I have laughted at many MA that were legit and I too know real MA. You are just an arrogant self promoting MA if you really are one. The Modern WuShu is nothing more than dance as Funakoshi said MA without the mind of the enemy is only dance. The proof is in the pudding. Can you use it or not does it work or not period I dont give a Rats A$$ where it comes from but SD is the real deal like it or not. KC

[John Dufresne]

You are on here to toot your own horn. The fact that you were there means nothing it just means you were there the Swords gave GMT one stone and Lex the other. So what. That does not disprove anything about Sd and I have laughted at many MA that were legit and I too know real MA. You are just an arrogant self promoting MA if you really are one. The Modern WuShu is nothing more than dance as Funakoshi said MA without the mind of the enemy is only dance. The proof is in the pudding. Can you use it or not does it work or not period I dont give a Rats A$$ where it comes from but SD is the real deal like it or not. KC

WHAT! Promte what----Im not promoting anything- where have I said or made a claim to fame (Frankly I know nothing)
Im just angry at people that mention my name - stop

Let me ask you- to simply put yourself in my shoes- how would you react? Frankly I have sat back and said nothing for YEARS. Enough is enough cut it out stop mentoning me.
Call me on the phone we will talk in person not in a forum- you think I want to self promote- I have nothing to promote.
978-846-7417

[John Dufresne]

WHAT! Promte what----Im not promoting anything- where have I said or made a claim to fame (Frankly I know nothing)
Im just angry at people that mention my name - stop

Let me ask you- to simply put yourself in my shoes- how would you react? Frankly I have sat back and said nothing for YEARS. Enough is enough cut it out stop mentoning me.
Call me on the phone we will talk in person not in a forum- you think I want to self promote- I have nothing to promote.
978-846-7417

Boy you really are ignorant- (Wu-shu) proof in the pudding? where are you? who are you? you definatly dont know me very well do you!!!!!!!!!! I have already proven many many times- I definatly dont need to prove to a ignorant child like you- but if your willing I live in boston- you know my number- quite talkin start walkin.

[kwaichang]

You are the only one that has mentioned your name you came on here spouting off. Why, :cool: are you just a troll. Seems that way. I have no need to meet or call you. I have nothing to prove you are on here to start cra/ so why dont you just go wu and shu somewhere else. KC:(

[Golden Tiger]

Welcome back Johnny, heck, its been what, 3 years or so since you last graced the forum with your insightfulness?:rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

Now all we have to do is a little net search, and order a dozen or so pizzas..........;)

[kwaichang]

No Wookie that would put you on his level. I dont understand his post?? Who mentioned his name until he showed up I hadnt heard of him.
You know at work I work with 5-6 different disciplines, PT OT Speech MD Nurses CNA etc, everyone feels that what they do is the most important and best thing for the patient. Well we are a team and even though there are members of the team that are self promoting as to what they do we still need to work togethor. I saw a movie once that said basically that until he feels the force of what you do he will not respect you. I feel that is the thing here. We are all brothers in a way even the brother that is the wayward one. So lets just talk technique and quit all the bashing. I personally started on this forum to converse about MA not is this this real or not. I know some of my posts do not reflect that though. I just love MA period and feel strongly about my life in MA KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

'Sall good. Same here. BTW, this dude's a troll, man.

[Mas Judt]

I would love to referee a match between a modern Wushu coach from China and an SD master. I'd be happy to arrange it and video it.

I think you will be very surprised with the result. Just because a good chunk of the training has been modified for performance, it does not mean they are with skill. And thier material is much more in line with CMA principle than Shaolin Do.

now, put that Kool Aid down...

[kwaichang]

Mas You slay me. Ha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. KC

[Mas Judt]

Why is it so funny? I mean, I know why I think it is funny, but I guess you are probably laughing from fear.

I'll be happy to set it up and ref, if you think I am not impartial, I can get an MMA guy to ref. (Just don't wear all those zippy patches on your pajamas, it might influence his decision.)

[kwaichang]

Again you slay me I bet you hoped it would be fought like the ancient Greek olympics didnt ya KC:rolleyes::eek:

[kwaichang]

BTW You dont have to be impartial when one is unconscious. I could care less who refs. KC

[synack]

For those who want to critique. There is a new video up at http://shaolincenter.com/

[Chain Whip]

John Dufresne;780608]No Im not "GMT" was there -so was I -were you?
Arogant? I get alittle ****ed off at being called a lier from people that have no clue- I dont know you- find out who your talking with before you make such big claims youself. I didn't say GMT wasn't there - I said he didn't "bring" the group. Yes, I was there - don't recall you being there. If you were there why don't you tell the story about the firecrackers at the unveiling of the marker?


You are speaking from the mouth of other people- No I'm not.


one arguing with someone that has studied MA for 45 years. Have some respect- Maybe you should do something to earn it. I'm happy for you that you took your first class 45 years ago - I have no idea what you have actually done since then - but I have seen you perform a couple of times - thought you were pretty good actually - just not as good as you think you are.

[BM2]

Do you live in a prison? Who the hell sleeps in a metal bed?

Man I never thought about it before now but I do:o And it's a canopy:o

[BM2]

It is my opinion that the stone is in honor of the ones who purchased it (Soards). For those of have seen it, what is your opinion?

[DPL]

WHAT! Promte what----Im not promoting anything- where have I said or made a claim to fame (Frankly I know nothing)
Im just angry at people that mention my name - stop

Let me ask you- to simply put yourself in my shoes- how would you react? Frankly I have sat back and said nothing for YEARS. Enough is enough cut it out stop mentoning me.
Call me on the phone we will talk in person not in a forum- you think I want to self promote- I have nothing to promote.
978-846-7417


Boy you really are ignorant- (Wu-shu) proof in the pudding? where are you? who are you? you definatly dont know me very well do you!!!!!!!!!! I have already proven many many times- I definatly dont need to prove to a ignorant child like you- but if your willing I live in boston- you know my number- quite talkin start walkin.

Dude, when you quote yourself and post something like this under it, it looks like you're arguing with yourself. Maybe that's a skill you picked up in your '45 years of MA experience', and hopefully you have some good, intelligent, impassioned discussions with yourself, but most people just think it's nuts.

There's almost a rhythm to the flame wars starting up and dying down on this thread. It's like the rising and setting of the sun, or the changing of the tides. Or drinking then throwing up until you dry heave every weekend in college...

[DPL]

Bt dont continue to argue a point with someone that was there- I NEVER made any claims- everyone else has- a statement was made- I am the proof- that is why I answered.

You want the proof? I AM THE PROOF! YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE PROOF!!!

[cjurakpt]

For those who want to critique. There is a new video up at http://shaolincenter.com/

when someone starts a broadsword form with the opposite hand in a sword-finger mudra...sigh

[Mas Judt]

Well, at least you understand you would be knocked out KC.

Man that Kool aid must be tasty.

[tattooedmonk]

when someone starts a broadsword form with the opposite hand in a sword-finger mudra...sighThat is creative expression, the form does not start like that.

[tattooedmonk]

Is this the writer??

[cjurakpt]

That is creative expression, the form does not start like that.

wow, you guys just never quite with your rationalizations and justifications; the SD org should be paying you all an honorarium as Lord High Apologists

I mean, it's always something, right? no matter what inconsistencies get pointed out, they are always "not how it's really done"; amazing how pretty much every public display of SD is incorrect because of the individual doing it - I guess somewhere there is a hidden temple of SD people doing all the forms perfectly that he outside world will never get to see...
so, if it's "creative expression", where did it come from? I'll tell you where - they saw someone do a tai chi straight sword set like that, and thought it would look cool to do with a broadsword, having absolutely NO understanding of why you do that with a a straight sword and not a broadsword; you see lots of "creative expression" in TCMA, but it's within a framework based on certain sets of principles;
so, when he puts the broadsword behind the arm in the ready position after doing the bizzare move across his face from the craddle hold - is that also "creative expression"? is the cr@p that they pass off as a 2-man staff set or their strange version of "tai chi" also just being "creative"? and if he's being creative, why is it being done on a promo vid for a school that is promoting itself as "original" and "authentic"? why be creative if you got the real stuff? answer: 99&#37; of the people seeing it have no clue, so, like all other SD stuff out there, you can have something that looks "kung fuey" that the general public is going to buy, but that actually contains all sorts of errors and inconsistencies that anyone with authentic TCMA experience will pick up; face it - its done like that because that's how it's it's taught, it's basically a cheap rip-off of TCMA, and that's the end of it;

[tattooedmonk]

wow, you guys just never quite with your rationalizations and justifications; the SD org should be paying you all an honorarium as Lord High Apologists

I mean, it's always something, right? no matter what inconsistencies get pointed out, they are always "not how it's really done"; amazing how pretty much every public display of SD is incorrect because of the individual doing it - I guess somewhere there is a hidden temple of SD people doing all the forms perfectly that he outside world will never get to see...

so, if it's "creative expression", where did it come from? you see lots of "creative expression" in TCMA, but certain things don't occur, because they are intrinsic to the thing itself (like doing sword mudra w/broad sword); and when he puts the broadsword behind the arm in the ready position after doing the bizzare move across his face from the craddle hold - is that also "creative expression"? is the cr@p that they pass off as a 2-man staff set or their strange version of "tai chi" also just being "creative"? and if he's being creative, why is it being done on a promo vid for a school that is promoting itself as "original" and "authentic"? why be creative if you got the real stuff? answer: 99% of the people seeing it have no clue, so, like all other SD stuff out there, you can have something that looks "kung fuey" that the general public is going to buy, but that actually contains all sorts of errors and inconsistencies that anyone with authentic TCMA experience will pick up; face it - its done like that because that's how it's it's taught, it's basically a cheap rip-off of TCMA, and that's the end of it;Look ,I just said what I believe it to be . He may have learned it like that, but I did not . I learned it from GMS and was right next to him for the whole seminar.

Yes, most of what is there is creative expression and or forms being done poorly.

Most people do not do them for the same reasons . The only people that look pretty doing them are forms champions or masters, these people do not fall into either of these catagories.

Why not give them a break and compliment them on what they have done that looks good or is done right??

This would be the sign of a true master and not an online critic.

Not everything is as it seems.

[brucereiter]

is that also "creative expression"? is the cr@p that they pass off as a 2-man staff set or their strange version of "tai chi" also just being "creative"? it's basically a cheap rip-off of TCMA, and that's the end of it;

hi cjurakpt,

i would like to address part of the above quote from you.

here is a clip of me practicing my understanding of yang tai chi chuan.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ

what is "strange" about the way i presented yang tai chi chuan as i have learned it from shaolin do?

how is what i presented a "basically cheap rip off of tcma"?

what is it the end of?

best,

bruce

[kwaichang]

Yes someone would. For once you are right. KC Hey PT some people do change the forms and the intro etc. that does not make the whole system wrong just that person. Some like Bobath some dont but the rehab works . KC

[kwaichang]

The demo tape looks like a compilation of about 5-6 different forms Green Dragon Broadsword , Taichi BSword , Tai chi and others. KC

[DPL]

wow, you guys just never quite with your rationalizations and justifications;

Wow, you guys just never quit with the attacks.

[Golden Tiger]

It is my opinion that the stone is in honor of the ones who purchased it (Soards). For those of have seen it, what is your opinion?


I am with you on this one.......:rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

so, if it's "creative expression", where did it come from? I'll tell you where - they saw someone do a tai chi straight sword set like that, and thought it would look cool to do with a broadsword, having absolutely NO understanding of why you do that with a a straight sword and not a broadsword;

I will not apologize. The two finger salute (as aposed to the one finger salute that I usually am know for) is called "immortal points the way" and while generally seen only in jian forms, is present in the opening of the Green Dragon Broadsword form.

While it is used as a balance to the jian in "tai chi sword forms" as you say, it is merely used in this one as an opening move.


so, when he puts the broadsword behind the arm in the ready position after doing the bizzare move across his face from the craddle hold - is that also "creative expression"?

As KC stated, this is several different parts of different forms spliced together.

See, this is another case of commenting on something inwhich you know absolutely nothing about. How about you learn the forms first, then make an "informed "decision.......

[Judge Pen]

John, I don't think anyone has mentioned your name on these forums for quite some time.... not since the go-round I had with Frank regarding the existance (of lack of existance) of that tape.

Having said that, I'm a bit bemused as to the attacking tone. :confused:

[Mas Judt]

I think it should be obvious...

[Judge Pen]

Not from prior posts etc. I thought he was respectful in his disagreement especially considering the personal nature of the comments back then. Now its just the same old merry-go-round of SD arguments. No one was attacking John or discussing him until he came back on here.

Shoot, as much as we've discussed these topics, we should be on autopilot by now. :D

[cjurakpt]

Look ,I just said what I believe it to be . He may have learned it like that, but I did not . I learned it from GMS and was right next to him for the whole seminar.
ok, so you learned it differently - seems to be a lot of variation going on then (see below)...


Yes, most of what is there is creative expression and or forms being done poorly.
again, it always seems to be what is publically available that falls under those categories - interesting coincdence...
seems to be a lot of "creative expression" being encourraged - hey, fine - but is that still "authentic" and "original"? but I can understand why its encouraged, considering there was probably a lot of that at the source...


Most people do not do them for the same reasons . The only people that look pretty doing them are forms champions or masters, these people do not fall into either of these catagories.
I don't care about "pretty" - that's not my point at all - you can do a form "badly" but the intrinsic elements can still be intact...but if they're not there, it doesn't matter how you do it...


Why not give them a break and compliment them on what they have done that looks good or is done right??
when i see some, I'll say it


This would be the sign of a true master and not an online critic.
since I never claimed to be a master of anything, I don't have to worry about living up to some sort of idealized criteria of great equanimity


Not everything is as it seems.
apparantly disproportionately so in the world of SD; but then again, some people think that JFS won against Osiris...

[cjurakpt]

what is "strange" about the way i presented yang tai chi chuan as i have learned it from shaolin do?
well, compared to classical Yang Family set (which I don't do myself), some of the moves are different or missing (e.g. - you do brush knee only 2x and only with the left foot forward, as opposed to 5x; you don't have "raising up the hands" in between dan bin and bak hok leung chi; you do some extra movements with the left hand and don't have the twisting step going into bun lan choih); I wouldn't call it strange per se, but it certainly is not classical Yang


how is what i presented a "basically cheap rip off of tcma"?
what you presented specifically looks like an alteration of the Yang set, which hey, if someone has done tai chi as their primary art for some years and feel that they have the purview to make some well-informed changes, that's cool; tai chi is certainly not one big happy family with everyone doing the same form, that's for sure; so BTW, who changed around the form to the version you do?

[cjurakpt]

Hey PT some people do change the forms and the intro etc. that does not make the whole system wrong just that person. Some like Bobath some dont but the rehab works . KC
you know, the way you seem to really luv addressing me by those initials after my name - I'm guessing you've met one or two PT's in your life that rubbed you the wrong way (get it? get it?), hmmm?

and hey, as for changing forms - I say go for it - do it up! but what is informing those changes? c'mon, be honest...

Bobath? what's that?

[cjurakpt]

I will not apologize.
well that's a relief...BTW, what is it that you aren't sorry about?


The two finger salute (as aposed to the one finger salute that I usually am know for) is called "immortal points the way" and while generally seen only in jian forms, is present in the opening of the Green Dragon Broadsword form.
actually, classically the move "Immortal Points the Way" involves a bit more than just pointing with the fingers...for example, the direction in which you point is kinda important; also, pointing the way to what?...:rolleyes:
and also, so according to you it is present in the opening - looks like you and your training brother have some disagreement over that...

Originally Posted by tattooedmonk:
Look ,I just said what I believe it to be . He may have learned it like that, but I did not . I learned it from GMS and was right next to him for the whole seminar.

so, which is correct? or is it the custum of SD to play fast and loose with the "original" and "authentic" style it is passing down?


While it is used as a balance to the jian in "tai chi sword forms" as you say, it is merely used in this one as an opening move.
so, if it's "merely" used as an opening, what is the reason it was used as an opening? lemme guess - it looks nice...
look, if you want to switch things around, go ahead - go Pollock on the whole system if you want - but spare us the paens about authenticity and traditional Shaolin being taught


As KC stated, this is several different parts of different forms spliced together.
ummm - yeah, I think I got that...


See, this is another case of commenting on something inwhich you know absolutely nothing about. How about you learn the forms first, then make an "informed "decision.......
it seems like there are so many different versions of the forms going around that even you guys can't agree on what's what, so which versions would I have to learn? as for knowing nothing about it - well, after studying TCMA for the last 20+ years with various teachers actually from China, I think I have a little bit of an informed perspective on TCMA...but that's ok, you don't have to believe me...

[cjurakpt]

Wow, you guys just never quit with the attacks.

well, there's just so much material to cover...

[Baqualin]

Not from prior posts etc. I thought he was respectful in his disagreement especially considering the personal nature of the comments back then. Now its just the same old merry-go-round of SD arguments. No one was attacking John or discussing him until he came back on here.

Shoot, as much as we've discussed these topics, we should be on autopilot by now. :D

John Dufresne???
Hey JP, from what I know of John....this is not him.......he's much more respectful........it has to be some troll, trying to stir up more sh!t....these post made no since at all.
BQ

[Chain Whip]

It is my opinion that the stone is in honor of the ones who purchased it (Soards). For those of have seen it, what is your opinion?

It is unquestionably to honor the Soards as is the marker in Putian. GMT is almost an after thought. The marker at Chen Village honors GMT - paid for by the students on the 1998 trip.

[Chain Whip]

I would love to referee a match between a modern Wushu coach from China and an SD master. I'd be happy to arrange it and video it.

I think you will be very surprised with the result. Just because a good chunk of the training has been modified for performance, it does not mean they are with skill. And thier material is much more in line with CMA principle than Shaolin Do.

now, put that Kool Aid down...

Let's say we do this:)

If the SD Master lost you (and others) would cite it as "proof" that we are "fake" or whatever.

If the SD Master won you would not have the opposite reaction. So, what value would there be in doing it? Unless everyone promised to say an SD victory would be the ultimate proof of our validity.

Can we pick any modern wushu coach and can we use any SD Master we wish?:D:D

[Judge Pen]

Let's say we do this:)

If the SD Master lost you (and others) would cite it as "proof" that we are "fake" or whatever.

If the SD Master won you would not have the opposite reaction. So, what value would there be in doing it? Unless everyone promised to say an SD victory would be the ultimate proof of our validity.

Can we pick any modern wushu coach and can we use any SD Master we wish?:D:D


This type of ancedotal evidence is unreliable as so much will depend on the individual. I know people who have told me that they sparred an SD black belt and they were bad, displayed no power or root etc. and all I can say is oh, well I hope that I'm better. I've also heard people say that they've seen an SD black sash fight and that, whatever you say about the history, that student could fight well. Ok, great. Good for the student and his teachers.

Truth is, none of it means much outside of the motivation, skill and will of the two individuals at that precise moment in time. All other things equal, the validity of an art and its training methods should make a difference, but the other intangibles will always get in the way.

[Mas Judt]

JP,
I am offering the match in respone to comments about the superiority compared to Modern Wushu. which demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of who is actually out there and included under that label - guys like Liang shouyu, Pan qing fu or Li tai liang - guys with real skills.

It would be an illuminating experience for SD, as it would not really be a fight. Trust me on this.

[kwaichang]

Hey PT that is what you are right ? You are a PT and dont know the Bobath approach to Spasticity with Stroke TBI pt. ??? OK I guess you know as much about SD. And Mas there are good fighters in SD just like there are good ones else where put the best Wu Shu guy against the worst SD guy and he would lose take your pick on which one that would be . And as far as the form it is not the Immortal points the Way it is a Dragon Hand as the form is Green Dragon Broadsword not Tai Chi Broad Sword or Jian. KC:p

[cjurakpt]

Hey PT that is what you are right ? You are a PT and dont know the Bobath approach to Spasticity with Stroke TBI pt. ???


me PT, but not know Bobath - brain hurts when think about it :rolleyes:

boy, I'll bet you were all a-twitter thinking that I didn't know it (BTW, I was trained in NDT by Lois Bly - you can ask your PT friends who she is)

you know, we can throw out lots of other PT "must know" names: Kendal, Voss, Mitchell, Maitland; the list goes on...and what?


OK I guess you know as much about SD.
actually, I know more than I really want to at this point...but that's ok, I'm done arguing pointlessly with you, well, whoever you are (I'd refer to you by professional initials, but I'm not sure what it is that you actually do...)


And as far as the form it is not the Immortal points the Way it is a Dragon Hand as the form is Green Dragon Broadsword not Tai Chi Broad Sword or Jian. KC:p
looks like you and your training brother Golden Tiger have some discussing to do on that - man, somebody better have a chat with the folks at SD Quality Assurance...
btw, what does the Green Dragon symbolize, just for kicks?

[tattooedmonk]

It is unquestionably to honor the Soards as is the marker in Putian. GMT is almost an after thought.
I have to agree with this.They paid for it themselves.:rolleyes:

They did because they thought it would add credibilty to what they study and teach.

Just like the USSD people.:rolleyes::eek:

[tattooedmonk]

ok, so you learned it differently - seems to be a lot of variation going on then (see below)...


again, it always seems to be what is publically available that falls under those categories - interesting coincdence...
seems to be a lot of "creative expression" being encourraged - hey, fine - but is that still "authentic" and "original"? but I can understand why its encouraged, considering there was probably a lot of that at the source...


I don't care about "pretty" - that's not my point at all - you can do a form "badly" but the intrinsic elements can still be intact...but if they're not there, it doesn't matter how you do it...


when i see some, I'll say it


since I never claimed to be a master of anything, I don't have to worry about living up to some sort of idealized criteria of great equanimity


apparantly disproportionately so in the world of SD; but then again, some people think that JFS won against Osiris...#1 Yes there is.

#2 I believe it is because any of the masters do not care about what people think either way.

#3 Authentic and original forms have been changed and altered by masters in every style to suit their needs , why should SD be any differen? The forms are taught , for the most part , consistently the same way in most of the schools.

#4 So what do see as being the most intrinsic aspects of the forms and /or pieces of the forms that you have seen that are missing from what you have seen in SD ??


#5 So you have seen nothing that was good in SD what so ever?? Material or otherwise.

#6 So what makes you so qualified then to say one way or another as to what is correct or incorrect about what it is that SD does.

I mean it is easy to say from behind a computer, looking at a two dimensional video of forms to say" yeah they do not have this and this is not right, etc. But is it possible that looks my be deceiving ,that if you tried to test your beliefs against any of these people, that the you might be wrong??

[kwaichang]

My fupa PT I am sure you are Out pt, as I was for 11 years. I follow other precepts not a big fan of Maitland, I like Paris and Myo - Fascial met tech , Structural to Soft tissue. mobs. Strain counter strain and Corley / Kelsey tendon cond and Un-loading principles. So having said that what do i do for work. Likewise as you were not familiar with Bobath you may not be familiar with all the nuances of SD. as far as Dragon hand etc I am basing this on my DVD of the form by GMT it looks like a DRagon Hand not Immortal hand. I will look at the notes to be sure/. Mas who do you know in Wu Shu that you could set up a match with and what is their weight class ?? Just Curious. KC

[Chain Whip]

JP,
I am offering the match in respone to comments about the superiority compared to Modern Wushu. which demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of who is actually out there and included under that label - guys like Liang shouyu, Pan qing fu or Li tai liang - guys with real skills.

It would be an illuminating experience for SD, as it would not really be a fight. Trust me on this.

So, answer the question.


Can we pick any modern wushu coach and can we use any SD Master we wish?

[Judge Pen]

JP,
I am offering the match in respone to comments about the superiority compared to Modern Wushu. which demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of who is actually out there and included under that label - guys like Liang shouyu, Pan qing fu or Li tai liang - guys with real skills.

It would be an illuminating experience for SD, as it would not really be a fight. Trust me on this.


Sorry, I don't trust you on this, although I for one have never said that a wu shu person couldn't fight...if they train to. Their atleticism alone means they would be formidable if they have any will and intent and I think that there remains some marital intent in wu shu... it just doesn't have the intent that it did prior to the standardization and competition elements.

Pan qing fu is one of my favorites: "you must first hit with your eyes and then your heart; your hands will follow."

I stand by my statement that its more of an idividual element as opposed to a style vs. style.

[cjurakpt]

My fupa PT I am sure you are Out pt, as I was for 11 years. I follow other precepts not a big fan of Maitland, I like Paris and Myo - Fascial met tech , Structural to Soft tissue. mobs. Strain counter strain and Corley / Kelsey tendon cond and Un-loading principles. So having said that what do i do for work. Likewise as you were not familiar with Bobath you may not be familiar with all the nuances of SD. as far as Dragon hand etc I am basing this on my DVD of the form by GMT it looks like a DRagon Hand not Immortal hand. I will look at the notes to be sure/.

Maitland is a nice system if that's all you use - it is internally consistent to a fault; mixing it with other things diminishes its efficacy, IMHO (to wit, I have worked with a few GDMT's from Oz - they were very effective using it alone); Paris seems to be basically Maitland mixed in with other stuff (Kaltenborn, Grimsby, Roccobado, etc.), from what i understand, but I never took his courses; MFR is ok, but Barnes is a bit culty and somewhat of an Upledger wanna-be; as for Dr. John, don't get me started, I spent a lot (too much?) time with him in my early years, before getting into more classical osteo stuff (Mitchel, Sutherland, Jones - counterstrain is the DEAL - fixes pretty much everything; the rest usually can be nailed with MET and adjustment - yes, I do a good deal of adjust / Gr. V - cuts down on rx. time when used appropriately in a big way!); on the neuro end, picked up PNF from Vicki Johnson, and as for Bobath, again to be clear, I studied NDT but have used it for peds (CP, etc.); never did any in-patient adult neuro, never that interested in it for some reason; and I am not familiar with Corley / Kelsey

as for SD, hey, whatever - I have seen more TCMA in my travels than I care to remember, and quite frankly, I think I can make a pretty good assessment of what is what, and SD just doesn't have the right taste to it - it looks like, in all the examples I have seen, a 4th or 5th generation xerox of TCMA: may have started out as it, but got messed with here and there to the point where it lacks all but a superficial reseamblance to it; but whatever, as I said, that's just my opinion, it won't change things one bit

[cjurakpt]

#1 Yes there is.
what informs that variety?


#2 I believe it is because any of the masters do not care about what people think either way.
obviously they do if they are promoting thir schools as being "authentic" and "original" Shaolin...


#3 Authentic and original forms have been changed and altered by masters in every style to suit their needs , why should SD be any differen? The forms are taught , for the most part , consistently the same way in most of the schools.
again, what informs their decision to change something and the way in which it is changed? there's a big difference between me going in and moving stuff around in Bethoven's Fifth and Leonard Bernstein doing it...


#4 So what do see as being the most intrinsic aspects of the forms and /or pieces of the forms that you have seen that are missing from what you have seen in SD ??
the moves themselves, how they are strung together, the way they are played - all TCMA, despite being comprised of 100's of styles, has a certain flavor to it - SD lacks that, IMO


#5 So you have seen nothing that was good in SD what so ever?? Material or otherwise.
nope


#6 So what makes you so qualified then to say one way or another as to what is correct or incorrect about what it is that SD does.
nothing makes me qualified - I am just giving an opinion based on 20+ years in the world of TCMA; take it or leave it, you obviously choose the latter


I mean it is easy to say from behind a computer, looking at a two dimensional video of forms to say" yeah they do not have this and this is not right, etc. But is it possible that looks my be deceiving ,that if you tried to test your beliefs against any of these people, that the you might be wrong??
why is it that you can look at other TCMA styles who post their vids, and you can see what is going on just fine, but when it comes to SD, that is not the case? why does "defense" of SD always involves complex arguments and justifications? I mean, I can do a CLF form, and someone may tell me I suck, but no one would ever suggest it's not actually CMA - but for some reason, something about SD consistently sets off bells, whistles and red flags for TCMA practitioners - just sayin'

look guys, you believe in your reality, it's obviously done right by you, so I'm just gonna drop it here and let it be, because there's obviously no point in pursuing this any further

[kwaichang]

Corley and Kelsey are a husband / wife PT team with 20 years of research and they are the ones that originated the suni unloading system. It is a de-weighting principle excellent for disc pathology and sports rehab. I worked with Doug F. the inventor of ex-pro program. As far as the SD Green Dragon the opening move is " Fu Pu Liang Chang" " Tiger step spread the palm" not Immortal points the way. The guy just F/U as people do . Please do not judge the style by the man as we are all imperfect. PT I think we could discuss tendon cond tech of C/K if you were open to it. KC:)

[tattooedmonk]

what informs that variety?


obviously they do if they are promoting thir schools as being "authentic" and "original" Shaolin...


again, what informs their decision to change something and the way in which it is changed? there's a big difference between me going in and moving stuff around in Bethoven's Fifth and Leonard Bernstein doing it...


the moves themselves, how they are strung together, the way they are played - all TCMA, despite being comprised of 100's of styles, has a certain flavor to it - SD lacks that, IMO


nope


nothing makes me qualified - I am just giving an opinion based on 20+ years in the world of TCMA; take it or leave it, you obviously choose the latter


why is it that you can look at other TCMA styles who post their vids, and you can see what is going on just fine, but when it comes to SD, that is not the case? why does "defense" of SD always involves complex arguments and justifications? I mean, I can do a CLF form, and someone may tell me I suck, but no one would ever suggest it's not actually CMA - but for some reason, something about SD consistently sets off bells, whistles and red flags for TCMA practitioners - just sayin'

look guys, you believe in your reality, it's obviously done right by you, so I'm just gonna drop it here and let it be, because there's obviously no point in pursuing this any furtherIt could be many things . I believe that this is something you would have to ask each person that does it differently.

So what makes this different than any other schools that teach authentic and original materal , that has variety and different interpretations on the same material??

So what is this flavor you speak of??I mean I have seen this material done with root , power , explosiveness , fluidity, continuity,etc. the same as any other CMA, but what do you see as being the differences??

I would say most likely their perception, their mind set,understanding of the material , and how they would utilize it in application, etc..

I am serious about knowing your opinion . I would like to see you post something that you believe has al the essential elements of CMA( FLAVOR).

[tattooedmonk]

As far as the SD Green Dragon the opening move is " Fu Pu Liang Chang" " Tiger step spread the palm" not Immortal points the way. Correct.:D

[Golden Tiger]

As far as the SD Green Dragon the opening move is " Fu Pu Liang Chang" " Tiger step spread the palm" not Immortal points the way.

Hey, even I have an off day. :D Lesson #233, when in doubt, refer to your notes.

[sunfist]

My god, i actually can feel the abyss staring into me.

[cjurakpt]

I would like to see you post something that you believe has al the essential elements of CMA( FLAVOR).

this is a sample list of things I've seen recently:

Baji:
empty hand:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7563370787562781003&q=Master+Zhou+jingxuan&total=19&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8
weapons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGBQvPTGSmQ&mode=related&search=
application:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdqQHUsCXnQ&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ9QaUwIW58&mode=related&search=

Kunlun
empty hand:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-566194860414964153&q=kunlun&total=60&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-595785909503964460
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7248746862387479722

Choi Lei Faht
empty hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf_snOHmTCg&NR=1
application:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL108-I-vlA&NR=1
qigong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ4Mdzs2jmk&NR=1

Bagua
emptyhand:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=837097191211311101&q=fu+bagua&total=406&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3
application:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqFtz7oJfw&mode=related&search=

Taiji
empty hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1yisB38Lws
push hands:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=546144302659221218&q=push+hands+competition&total=114&start=20&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9

Dragon
empty hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=887Pftw7aDk&mode=related&search=

Tong Bei
empty hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVSWz9XM9NA

[Baqualin]

this is a sample list of things I've seen recently:

Baji:
empty hand:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7563370787562781003&q=Master+Zhou+jingxuan&total=19&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8
weapons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGBQvPTGSmQ&mode=related&search=
application:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdqQHUsCXnQ&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ9QaUwIW58&mode=related&search=

Kunlun
empty hand:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-566194860414964153&q=kunlun&total=60&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-595785909503964460
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7248746862387479722

Choi Lei Faht
empty hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf_snOHmTCg&NR=1
application:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL108-I-vlA&NR=1
qigong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ4Mdzs2jmk&NR=1

Bagua
emptyhand:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=837097191211311101&q=fu+bagua&total=406&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3
application:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqFtz7oJfw&mode=related&search=

Taiji
empty hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1yisB38Lws
push hands:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=546144302659221218&q=push+hands+competition&total=114&start=20&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9

Dragon
empty hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=887Pftw7aDk&mode=related&search=

Tong Bei
empty hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVSWz9XM9NA

I'm sorry cjurakpt I just don't see it.....I saw nothing that I haven't seen in a lot of SD people...except for the fact I don't see the power generation we're taught by GMS.....most of these guys would get killed by a good fighter.
The Kunlun looked like an offshoot of Chen Tai Chi to me.
The Baqua I've seen before (I know the guy is an old master)....not Impressed with the form at all.
Same with the Taiji...nothing to make me go wow, we need to take a look at what we're doing.

My favorite was the Kwan Do.....nice stances, flow and power......see the same in SD

All I can say if I have to look like a pu$$y doing my forms to be like TCMA....then I'll stick with the SD & GMS's way:D

[cjurakpt]

All I can say if I have to look like a pu$$y doing my forms to be like TCMA....then I'll stick with the SD & GMS's way:D
well, good luck with that then