Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BentMonk]

Nice vids. IMHO the internal forms posted by SDIC were as good or better than the ones you posted. I liked the kwan dao form. I think JP's stances and over all movement are better than what you posted. I also think the drunken form posted earlier is as good or better than any of the empty hand vids you posted. Anyone can pick any form apart and point out every flaw. The fact that the forms are being performed by human beings and not robots means that there will always be a flaw somewhere, since there are no perfect human beings. TCMA is so buried in legends, lineage debates, and multiple interpretations of the same forms, that to single SD out for it is ridiculous. As many have pointed out, this is the age of information. Anyone beginning their martial arts journey is capable of doing the research needed to make an informed decision. SD, like every other MA has practitioners of assorted skill level. So if SD is so bad, why do we have so many happy students? :D

[Baqualin]

well, good luck with that then

Please don't take that as directed towards you...I like your post & critiques.....you only call it as you see it...just as I.
Best always,
BQ

[cjurakpt]

Nice vids. IMHO the internal forms posted by SDIC were as good or better than the ones you posted. I liked the kwan dao form. I think JP's stances and over all movement are better than what you posted. I also think the drunken form posted earlier is as good or better than any of the empty hand vids you posted. Anyone can pick any form apart and point out every flaw. The fact that the forms are being performed by human beings and not robots means that there will always be a flaw somewhere, since there are no perfect human beings. TCMA is so buried in legends, lineage debates, and multiple interpretations of the same forms, that to single SD out for it is ridiculous. As many have pointed out, this is the age of information. Anyone beginning their martial arts journey is capable of doing the research needed to make an informed decision. SD, like every other MA has practitioners of assorted skill level. So if SD is so bad, why do we have so many happy students? :D
as you and Baqualin seems to have missed the point: I was not asked to post forms that I thought showed someone who was better than the SD vids (and if you read my posts you will never see me say a single thing about anyone's skill level or performance per se - you guys luv to fall back on that claim about not everyone is perfect, there will always be flaws etc. etc. without even realizing it's not the argument being made!); what I was asked to post was what I thought were examples of the appropriate "flavor" of TCMA (go read the post before), meaning the content in terms of the moves themselves, how they were strung together in the macro context of the forms, and to some degree the manner in which the players did them; my contention is and has always been, that I personally do not see any of those qualitites in anything of SD that I have seen and so Kwai Chang asked me for examples of what I thought was indivcative of it; I wasn't trying to bolster my argument, just answering his question; in regards to my perspective, it's obviously pointless to argue it with anyone from SD, because it's not going to get anywhere, and I had stated above that I was no longer trying to do, but KC then asked for examples anyway; so for you guys to argue as if I were continuing to do so really makes no sense...

BTW, the argument "if a lot of people are happy with SD, that must make it right" has no basis in reality: you'd have to look at percentages, in terms of how many people who have EVER studied SD who are happy with it (probably most are not, like anything); as far as large numbers of people supporting something, that doesn't make it intrinsically good - millions of people supported the German government in in the 1930's, and that didn't turn out too well despite the numbers (no, I am NOT comparing SD to Nazi-ism)

[cjurakpt]

Please don't take that as directed towards you...I like your post & critiques.....you only call it as you see it...just as I.
Best always,
BQ

how could I possibly take it as directed to me?

[tattooedmonk]

as you and Baqualin seems to have missed the point: I was not asked to post forms that I thought showed someone who was better than the SD vids (and if you read my posts you will never see me say a single thing about anyone's skill level or performance per se - you guys luv to fall back on that claim about not everyone is perfect, there will always be flaws etc. etc. without even realizing it's not the argument being made!); what I was asked to post was what I thought were examples of the appropriate "flavor" of TCMA (go read the post before), meaning the content in terms of the moves themselves, how they were strung together in the macro context of the forms, and to some degree the manner in which the players did them; my contention is and has always been, that I personally do not see any of those qualitites in anything of SD that I have seen and so Kwai Chang asked me for examples of what I thought was indivcative of it; I wasn't trying to bolster my argument, just answering his question; in regards to my perspective, it's obviously pointless to argue it with anyone from SD, because it's not going to get anywhere, and I had stated above that I was no longer trying to do, but KC then asked for examples anyway; so for you guys to argue as if I were continuing to do so really makes no sense...

BTW, the argument "if a lot of people are happy with SD, that must make it right" has no basis in reality: you'd have to look at percentages, in terms of how many people who have EVER studied SD who are happy with it (probably most are not, like anything); as far as large numbers of people supporting something, that doesn't make it intrinsically good - millions of people supported the German government in in the 1930's, and that didn't turn out too well despite the numbers (no, I am NOT comparing SD to Nazi-ism)
Actually it was me that asked for your examples , but that does not matter.

So, now tell us what you see as being the difference between what you have seen from SD and in these videosa and similarities, if any.

I am truely interested in your perspective and opinion .

I have already seen things that I believe are different, but also similar.

What would you tell an SD practitioner to help them gain this FLAVOR?? Be serious . Do not say take another style.

[John Takeshi]

Brothers! Brethren!! Do you have a form in your repertoire that is a close approximation to this?: (I'm not sure how the punctuation is supposed to go for this kind of a transition from a question, which also sumbits something via what is normally reserved for a colon; but I think I have it right. If I don't, choose which punctuation you prefer.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymQh9rLgQyU

[Baqualin]

as you and Baqualin seems to have missed the point: I was not asked to post forms that I thought showed someone who was better than the SD vids (and if you read my posts you will never see me say a single thing about anyone's skill level or performance per se - you guys luv to fall back on that claim about not everyone is perfect, there will always be flaws etc. etc. without even realizing it's not the argument being made!); what I was asked to post was what I thought were examples of the appropriate "flavor" of TCMA (go read the post before), meaning the content in terms of the moves themselves, how they were strung together in the macro context of the forms, and to some degree the manner in which the players did them; my contention is and has always been, that I personally do not see any of those qualitites in anything of SD that I have seen and so Kwai Chang asked me for examples of what I thought was indivcative of it;

I never used the word better than or skill level......I understand what you mean....I only said I didn't see anything (flavor wise) any different than the way our forms should be performed other than power generation which if not applied properly, the forms will seem too choppy & not have the flow you would normally associate with TCMA
BQ

[BentMonk]

cjurakpt - The point of my post was that SD looks very similar to or better than the forms you posted, IMO. I also agree with Baqualin. If I have to take the power and snap out of my forms to be considered legit TCMA, I'll pass. My "so many happy students" comment was sarcasm, not justification. I think the whole "flavor" thing is like discussing art. Every one's opinion is subjective. I post on this thread for the fun of the debate. SD has given me a great deal. I freely admit that I have difficulty remaining objective in my arguments. That doesn't mean that I am dumb and blind. Some of the criticisms of SD are valid, some aren't.

[Chain Whip]

All I can say if I have to look like a pu$$y doing my forms to be like TCMA....then I'll stick with the SD & GMS's way

Have to agree with BQ here. This may be what some of you call TCMA - and maybe it is "modern" TCMA but you can't seriously believe that people practiced like we see in these two examples that was posted as good TCMA and then stepped on the battlefield the next day.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-595785909503964460

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=837097191211311101&q=fu+bagua&total=406&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

Some of the other clips were better - but most of them had the same complete lack of martial intent and power.

[tattooedmonk]

Originally Posted by Baqualin
All I can say if I have to look like a pu$$y doing my forms to be like TCMA....then I'll stick with the SD & GMS's way!!:D

I have to agree as well. I liked a great deal of those videos for what they were, but those videos are the EXACT reason why people think CMA / Kung Fu is not effective in a fight.

All of our training starts with the basics of rooting, balance, stability, strength, etc.

Most of what I see in regards to TCMA now a days the wind could blow them over and their strikes would make us laugh when and if we were hit by them.:D

The modern traditions of CMA are for show and have no martial application, unless you have a very cooperative opponent.:DThe lion dance , the outfits, the rituals ,etc. is sooo far removed from what REAL TCMA is about .

I think more TCMA schools should be looking at SD and borrowing some of the ideas to adapt their styles for modern day usage.:D

[Mas Judt]

Well, I'd say you are delusional, but perhaps you are way past that.

I'd like to know:

Do you believe

That Sin The' is THE Shaolin Grand master?

That Shaolin Do is the original and authentic art?

That the reason kung fu in China is different is because it is a lesser variant of the true original style?

That the reason your stuff looks like Karate is because it is 'for combat.'? (Heard from SD students.)

That the Shaolin monks honored Sin The' by erecting a stele in his honor?

These are things the 'grandmaster' says on his website. Do YOU believe them?

Honestly, you've got to be quite the tool to believe this tripe.

[Mas Judt]

It is near impossible to bring a true believer out of their delusion, so lets focus on the lies of Sin The', the grandhamster of shaolin do.

Do you believe them? Do you repeat them? Do you sell your 'art' by repeating them?

If so, do you sleep at night? How does it feel to be engaged in such bald faced deceit?

[Mas Judt]

FWIW, some will call me rude, but no one has bucked up and addressed the moral implications of fraud to support a martial arts club. It happens a lot, but I sense there are some true believers here. No one has been able to support SD outside of SD. It is obvious The' is a bull****ter. So why do you go along with it?

[Mas Judt]

Oh, tattoedmonk, it is best to be silent and thought of as a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[tattooedmonk]

Well, I'd say you are delusional, but perhaps you are way past that.

I'd like to know:

1 Do you believe

That Sin The' is THE Shaolin Grand master?

2 That Shaolin Do is the original and authentic art?

3 That the reason kung fu in China is different is because it is a lesser variant of the true original style?

4 That the reason your stuff looks like Karate is because it is 'for combat.'? (Heard from SD students.)

5 That the Shaolin monks honored Sin The' by erecting a stele in his honor?

These are things the 'grandmaster' says on his website. Do YOU believe them?

Honestly, you've got to be quite the tool to believe this tripe. 1 I believe he is the Grandmaster of his system of shaolin.

2 I believe that the material is authentic and original.

3 Yes
4 yes
5 No

These are left up to interpretation. For example, to say that the Shaolin Monks erected a stele in his honor could mean, when the stele was erected they had a ceremony in his honor . ( Not to say this is the way it is or was ,just and example. )

I believe that most of what is written about the art is solid ,but that certain things have been blown out of proportion, kinda like in the game telephone.

[tattooedmonk]

FWIW, some will call me rude, but no one has bucked up and addressed the moral implications of fraud to support a martial arts club. It happens a lot, but I sense there are some true believers here. No one has been able to support SD outside of SD. It is obvious The' is a bull****ter. So why do you go along with it?
No one outside of SD can prove that it is not what we say it is, can they??

What makes GMS story any different than anyone elses out there? I mean up until recent times the stories of and many histories and lineges in CMA were unknown and unfounded and now many of them are being proven to be incorrect as well, so what do you make of that??

So what if they are stories that were told to a child to teach him the proper spirit of the art?? Many styles do this and have done this. it is possible that just like anything else that has a story that they have been blown out of proportion??

This does not take away from what they art has to offer. And if it does the art is not for them.

Believe me I do not know anyone that thinks that the legends/ history/ lineage is a major selling point.

It is the art and the people involved that are the selling points

[tattooedmonk]

If this bothers you so much why do you get involved?? Why not contact the Better Business Bureau , ETC., file a complaint and then take SD and GMS to court??

[kwaichang]

Hey PT I enjoyed the forms I can see the generation of power from the waist in the ones that I saw , I feel the practitioners have merit. I have to disagree with my SD partners and do not feel the practioners look weak at all. I can see the generation of power and the speed etc. As far as what I believe let me agree with TTM on most of what is said as far as the statue stone at the temple who cares the point is it is an honor that the Shaolin Temple allowd it to be erected in the 1st place paid for or not. As far as the differences of the "flavor" of the films shown compared to SD let me say this: In Karate Do power generation is from the base and depends upon Uchi Waza and Tsuki Waza. Most Chinese MA depend upon Uchiwaza style of stricking as Japanese have alot more Tsuki waza. I trained in Japanese styles for many years and I know them well and SD is not Japanese in power or form period. Does SD generate power as the ones in the clips , yes in some cases but not all, I have seen a different method in the clips posted by SD people so let it be known that not all the demos of SD are the best that I have seen performed by SD people. So please do not judge the style by the stylist. Mas I asked earlier what is the weight class of the Wu Shu guy who will fight ?? Again nothing has changed are the styles shown and SD different ?? Yes is one CMA and the other not ?? Who knows for sure. KC

[cjurakpt]

Actually it was me that asked for your examples , but that does not matter.
sorry, my mistake - hard to keep track of you all...


So, now tell us what you see as being the difference between what you have seen from SD and in these videosa and similarities, if any.
I am truely interested in your perspective and opinion .
I have already seen things that I believe are different, but also similar.
What would you tell an SD practitioner to help them gain this FLAVOR?? Be serious . Do not say take another style.
no, I wouldn't say to change styles, mainly because, to be honest, it's not of any interest to me what someone would do - changing styles might be the answer, it might not be, probably depends on the individual
anyway, as far as the differences, the only way I could do that effectively in a way that might convince you, is to sit down with you and review videos or practitioners side-by-side; but as I stated before, I am not going to bother with that because there is little point; you asked me to give you examples of what I thought constituted the flavor of which I spoke, I did so; if you do not see differences, then my describing them wouldn't do much good anyway; if you do see differences and feel SD's way of doing things is preferable, that's fine, again, my argument was not to convinve you otherwise


I never used the word better than or skill level......I understand what you mean....I only said I didn't see anything (flavor wise) any different than the way our forms should be performed other than power generation which if not applied properly, the forms will seem too choppy & not have the flow you would normally associate with TCMABQ
your original statement made mention of how forms are done by humans, not robots so everyone will have flaws, which implies that you were responding to a supposed critique of how someone performed the form, and it was in context of the vids I posted, so again it implies a comparative;


cjurakpt - The point of my post was that SD looks very similar to or better than the forms you posted, IMO. I also agree with Baqualin. If I have to take the power and snap out of my forms to be considered legit TCMA, I'll pass. My "so many happy students" comment was sarcasm, not justification. I think the whole "flavor" thing is like discussing art. Every one's opinion is subjective. I post on this thread for the fun of the debate. SD has given me a great deal. I freely admit that I have difficulty remaining objective in my arguments. That doesn't mean that I am dumb and blind. Some of the criticisms of SD are valid, some aren't.
similar and better than are two different criteria: they can look the same and better / worse or different and better / worse; likewise they can look better and same / different or worse and same / different; as far as lacking power and snap, I would suggest taking another look at the CLF vid of the guy doing technique drills with his students or the Baji vid of the guy doing the Green Dragon form; if youthink these lack "snap" and power generation, then I really can't say much more about it;


Have to agree with BQ here. This may be what some of you call TCMA - and maybe it is "modern" TCMA but you can't seriously believe that people practiced like we see in these two examples that was posted as good TCMA and then stepped on the battlefield the next day.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-595785909503964460
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=837097191211311101&q=fu+bagua&total=406&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3
Some of the other clips were better - but most of them had the same complete lack of martial intent and power.
I would agree about the Kunlun sets that they do not appear to be that martially oriented - but I don't think that the intent is to be martial, TBH; however, bear in mind, that no one asked me to give examples of fighting or "real" martial application per se - remember, the entire example was about "flavor"; these are two entirely different things - if you wanted examples of how TCMA should be trained as relates to actual fighting, you might be surprised but I would not have posted forms - I would have posted San Da or Shui Jow or other things that involved live training against resisting opponents - personally, I think that forms are a tremendous misuse of time if youwant to train actual fighting, so, quite frankly, all your counterarguments about the forms lacking martial intent and power generation mean nothing to me anyway, because the whole context is irrelevant (let the gods of TCMA start hurling their thunderbolts...)


Originally Posted by Baqualin
I have to agree as well. I liked a great deal of those videos for what they were, but those videos are the EXACT reason why people think CMA / Kung Fu is not effective in a fight.
All of our training starts with the basics of rooting, balance, stability, strength, etc.
Most of what I see in regards to TCMA now a days the wind could blow them over and their strikes would make us laugh when and if we were hit by them.:D
The modern traditions of CMA are for show and have no martial application, unless you have a very cooperative opponent.:DThe lion dance , the outfits, the rituals ,etc. is sooo far removed from what REAL TCMA is about .
I think more TCMA schools should be looking at SD and borrowing some of the ideas to adapt their styles for modern day usage.:D
again, if you think that forms have anything to do with training fighting, I have a bridge here in NYC that is in need of new ownership
now, this is, of course, an entirely different discussion than what we were originally "debating" - again, be very clear that my entire discourse and example set was in regards to "flavor" - I made no claims or statements about martial efficacy - TBH, many of the guys I posted probably couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag - and that is regardless of how they do their forms; probably the Baji guy showing apps and the CLF guy would be the most able to actually use their stuff; possibly the Dragon guy depending on what he trained aside from forms; the Tong Bei, Kun Lun, Taiji and Bagua guys - I wouldn't hold my breath (even the bagua guy showing apps, although I like a lot of them, not so sure he'd do much in a fight); the best example of fighting, actually, was the push hands competition vid, because what you had there were two guys trying their hardest to resist what the other guy was doing (of course the skill level was very uneven)
as to why people think that TCMA-ists can't fight - it's not because their forms are weak, it's because they spend time doing forms in the first place, as opposed to other things that would be of greater benefit when it comes to fighting, like working against pads, or resisting opponents; these things not only give you real skill, they train all the stuff that forms proporte to train - rooting, stability, strength, balance, timing, coordination, speed, agility, etc. - in a FUNCTIONAL context, which contemporary Motor Learning theory research has shown time and again is one of, if not the strongest determinent of actual motor skill aquisition (KC - you must be familiar with the work of people such as Horak, Shumway-Cooke, Gentile and concepts of the contextual interference effect if you are in neuro rehab...)


Hey PT I enjoyed the forms I can see the generation of power from the waist in the ones that I saw , I feel the practitioners have merit. I have to disagree with my SD partners and do not feel the practioners look weak at all. I can see the generation of power and the speed etc.
again, my point had nothing to do with power generation or even inherent merit in regards to fighting - it was a matter of "style"; whether they are weak or strong, TBH, you can't say without seeing them in action


Most Chinese MA depend upon Uchiwaza style of stricking as Japanese have alot more Tsuki waza. I trained in Japanese styles for many years and I know them well and SD is not Japanese in power or form period. Does SD generate power as the ones in the clips , yes in some cases but not all, I have seen a different method in the clips posted by SD people so let it be known that not all the demos of SD are the best that I have seen performed by SD people.
you can debate power generation all you want - the fact of the matter is, when you train under live conditions against skilled, resisting opponents on a regular basis, most of that goes out the window, because you end up with a common denominator that, sorry to say, looks like MMA, BJJ, Sambo, Boxing / kickboxing, San Da, Muey Thai, Bando, etc.


So please do not judge the style by the stylist.
again, I have never commented on individual performances - my comments have ALWAYS been directed at content

[cjurakpt]

Do you believe
That Sin The' is THE Shaolin Grand master?
that's a stretch - I don't know if they claim that per se, but obviously this is not a singular position - there are / have been many individuals who have trained in Shaolin arts that could be construed as being of "grand master" status; what he actually studied, well, I think it was a bit more variegated than what the party line puts out...


That Shaolin Do is the original and authentic art?
I personally find that hard to believe, considering that what I have seen of it looks very different from the classical Shaolin sets that I have seen in my years in the TCMA community, or what now can be easily found on You Tube; it looks like it is a few generations away, xerox of a xerox, etc., and based on the content, looks like it was learned piecemeal and reconstituted into its current form - which is fine, it's just not "the original and authentic" Shaolin style anymore (but then again, that is, evidently and entire argument in and of itself - I believe Sal Canzonieri and others are currently discussing this on other threads in the Shaolin forum, and their research skills and experience far exceeds mine in this area)


That the Shaolin monks honored Sin The' by erecting a stele in his honor?
if he had the $$$, I;m sure they did, as they have done for many others (and, BTW, the Chinese don't inherently have a problem with this, because culturally it is understood what it means; the problem is when you come back to the US and put it out as an example of how someone is connected to the temple in a special sort of way)


These are things the 'grandmaster' says on his website. Do YOU believe them?
I personally have a hard time with the entire lineage story, especially as the pic of the Shaggy DA Grandmaster looks a lot like a pic I recall seeing elsewhere in the past...also, the whole idea of one person transmitting 999 forms to another person and that person doing the same to another is highly suspect; that, and the fact that Sin The's teacher and his teacher's teacher are not mentioned anywhere else is suspicious (and the justifications for why this is are just a bit too pat); all in all, it's a very romantic, idealized story, which, as those of us who have studied with actual Chinese "old guys", knows is hardly the way it is (e.g. - none of them studied with only one person, none of them knew 999 forms)


No one has been able to support SD outside of SD. It is obvious The' is a bull****ter. So why do you go along with it?
the lack of independent verification is a red flag: a very good litmus test is whether independent, outside sources who have no vested interest in a system's veracity corroborate its claims (e.g. - Jigiro Kano can be "verified" by many source who have nothing whatsoever to do with Judo)

SD seems to have a fair amount of "cult of personality" to it; I suspect it is also pretty cliquey; and again, it seems like a lot of the explanations are a bit too convenient: explaining the use of gi's, why no one has heard of his teachers...

in the end, it's up to the individual to decide if it resonates as true or not, of course...

[kwaichang]

My post commented on the biomechanical movements and generation of power which in my opinion is what constitutes the "flavor" of the style. also GMT claims to be the GM of SD not all the Shaolin Temples. SKTJ passed what he learned to Ie Chang Ming and on to GMT, there were other masters of the temples and I am sure they did the same after the split of the temples etc. So of course there are differences and different forms. GMT traces the origin of SD to the Shaolin Temples of which there were 6. That is SD lineage. KC

[tattooedmonk]

So you think forms have NOTHING to do with fighting or how to learn how to fight??

[Mas Judt]

KC - let me know what weight classes you want, and I'll see what can be done.

TM - nice respone, but Sin The' says 'there are many engineers, but only 1 shaolin grandmaster..' sure sounds like a very specific and often repeated claim...

[kwaichang]

Give me a Middle weight , Light Heavy and Heavy weight. KC

[Judge Pen]

Well, I'd say you are delusional, but perhaps you are way past that.

I'd like to know:

Do you believe

That Sin The' is THE Shaolin Grand master?

I believe that Sin The is the grandmaster of Shaolin-do as taught to him by Ie Chang Ming and the other teachers in Indonesia.

That Shaolin Do is the original and authentic art?

Yes, I beleive that Shaolin Do is an original and authentic art.

That the reason kung fu in China is different is because it is a lesser variant of the true original style?

No, its different because it evolved differently

That the reason your stuff looks like Karate is because it is 'for combat.'? (Heard from SD students.)

I don't think our stuff looks like karate, but I think our flow is different because the emphasis on power (or more fairly different ways of generating power) are different then much of what is seen in CMA today. I've never said that other CMA would be ineffective or not powerful in combat.

That the Shaolin monks honored Sin The' by erecting a stele in his honor?

Nope, American students honored their teacher by purchasing the stele



My comments are in bold.

[Judge Pen]

It is near impossible to bring a true believer out of their delusion, so lets focus on the lies of Sin The', the grandhamster of shaolin do.

Do you believe them? Do you repeat them? Do you sell your 'art' by repeating them?

If so, do you sleep at night? How does it feel to be engaged in such bald faced deceit?

Kung Tao is full of embellishments and tall tales (a nice way of saying a lie), but the art is still effective and can be freely taught with little more than a wink and a nod to the fantastical claims that are made. I think your approach is a good example of that.

[Judge Pen]

FWIW, some will call me rude, but no one has bucked up and addressed the moral implications of fraud to support a martial arts club. It happens a lot, but I sense there are some true believers here. No one has been able to support SD outside of SD. It is obvious The' is a bull****ter. So why do you go along with it?

I think its effective, practical and fun. And I don't feel misled as I can form my own opinions on things that are of less importance to me personally.

I mean I could care less if Su Kong Tai Djian was real or a fable. Since debate, part of me would love for some unknown record of his existence to pop up, just to shake things up, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[cjurakpt]

So you think forms have NOTHING to do with fighting or how to learn how to fight??

minimal to not at all

[tattooedmonk]

minimal to not at allSo how do you think it helps minimally to not at all??

[cjurakpt]

So how do you think it helps minimally to not at all??

minially in the sense that there is the slight possibility that you might be doing some of the moves in the forms with the same intrinsic motor patterns that you might use in gihting, and also that, in a very general sense, you are developing fighting-related skills, or are at least in the mind-set of fighting; also, learning techniques "in the air" can be a good way for someone to get the basic, initial idea of a movement, but only provided that the way you practiced it was as close as you could get to how it would look in actual useage

not at all in the sense that the above is tenuous at best, and that otherwise real fighting has absolutely noting to do contextually with forms, in terms of how techniques are delivered, how you adapt to resistance from an opponent, the fact that you are throwing techs in the air versus contacting something, how your mind functions solo versus in confrontation with another person, etc. etc. etc.

throw in the fact that many of the most skilled fighters these days do not train forms, and you are about home...

finally, if you analyze forms practice from a contemporary motor learning perspective, you immediately see that they come out very very low on the continuum of contextual interference, which is probably the key ingredient in terms of developing functional motor skill, in the sense that you need to have a relatively high level of CI in order to get real retention and transfer of a motor skill; what that means is that if you want to be able to successfully fight against a live resisting opponent, you need to spend most of your time training in that context

BTW, before you throw out the old saw about MMA guys being limited by rules and that kung-fu techs are too deadly for the ring, my point is that it's the context that is more important then the content...

[Toby]

Can't believe I'm subscribed to this thread, nor that it's gone for so long. I remember when it started ...


... here is a clip of me practicing my understanding of yang tai chi chuan.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ

what is "strange" about the way i presented yang tai chi chuan as i have learned it from shaolin do?

how is what i presented a "basically cheap rip off of tcma"?
Hi Bruce,

I don't formally learn tai chi, yang or any other style, but your movements are very limb oriented. It's "empty", there's no body behind it. I see no opening or closing, no torquing, your body seems static the whole way through. Sure, you turn and move but it's driven by your feet. Your arms move but they move alone, not through your centre. Compared to tcma, it's not necessarily strange or a cheap rip off because I see a lot of empty tcma too, at least on youtube vids. The way I learn (almost?) all movement should originate in the lower dan tien and all movements should be whole body, not limb. So, e.g. at ~19s you step with your left leg, weight it and turn to your left. It's not driven by your body. If I did the move, my leg would turn because it had to, because my centre would've turned it. Hard to explain, easy to show, hard to do.

I'm sure you could develop good mechanics if you specialised in yang style tai chi, but I guess that's the downfall of SD - as soon as you learn the basics of something you change to something completely different (at least from what I recall of the syllabus).

[TenTigers]

if there's one thing that can sum up this thread, it's...
"Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and it annoys the pigs.":p

[cjurakpt]

to quote A. M. Hall: "Oink oink, my good man..." (cr@p, can't remember the movie that was from though...was it Vacation?)

[synack]

My post commented on the biomechanical movements and generation of power which in my opinion is what constitutes the "flavor" of the style. also GMT claims to be the GM of SD not all the Shaolin Temples. SKTJ passed what he learned to Ie Chang Ming and on to GMT, there were other masters of the temples and I am sure they did the same after the split of the temples etc. So of course there are differences and different forms. GMT traces the origin of SD to the Shaolin Temples of which there were 6. That is SD lineage. KC


I'm sorry but about GMT is completely false. Go to shaolingrandmaster.com watch the intro alone!

"the youngest grandmaster in shaolin history, Sin Kwan The. Shaolin Grandmaster"

In the biography it claims GM Su is the grandmaster of Shaolin. Then claims that it was passed onto E Chang Ming who then:

"Grandmaster E died in 1976, but not before passing all of his knowledge on to me, the current Grandmaster of Shaolin."

Now for GMT:

"Mastering more than 900 forms from over 100 fighting systems, I became the youngest Grandmaster in 1500 years of Shaolin history."

"At age 25, Grandmaster E passed the title and rank of Grandmaster to me, making me the youngest Grandmaster in the history of Shaolin."

"After Grandmaster E's death, I realized that while there were many engineers in the world, there was only one Grandmaster of Shaolin, so I left my graduate school studies to devote my life to teaching and preserving the art of Shaolin Do." (this is the first time he's mentioned Shaolin Do.)


Monument Honor:

"I am also the only person in 1500 years to be honored with two monuments at the Shaolin Temples in China."

"In 1992, at a large celebration at the Honan temple in Honan Province (the original Shaolin temple), Chief Abbot Su Xi presented a stone tablet to commemorate my visit. Fewer than twenty such monuments have been erected in the history of Honan temple."



He even signs his biography as "Shaolin Grandmaster Sin Kwang The'"


If he's not completely full of ****, he's definitely misleading people intentionally to make himself seem more important. You can like the art (like I do) and not drink the kool-aid. There are big claims with nothing to back it up. And I think it's so obvious what the truth is and some people prefer to live in a turtle shell.

[Mas Judt]

This is where the ethics come in. How can you sleep at night if you support and rrepeat these falsehoods? This is more than just a fanciful history - in Chinese culture you often find an innovation attributed to an ancestor. But claims to be something else that already exists is still fraud, even within that context.

Where are your ethics?

[Mas Judt]

JP my man, you are a good guy and a true barrister... the truth of things in the Kuntao world is often never worth worrying about for reasons long explained - but the key point here is that Sin The' is actively marketing his art with statements his own followers claim not to believe.... claims that 'steal' equity from existing methods with claims of being the original and authentic version... while the original and authentic versions still exist and look nothing like SD.... it is a moral quandry.... more than just a fanciful history...


KC - I'll see what I can do - I might even have the heavyweight, he's a local Wushu teacher who has trained in China. I'm going to see if there will be a CSC tournament this year - that way we can have our fun within a context we can mutually control (I've got some weight there) and it will look like just another part of the event rather than a 'big challenge'. I'll need your help coordinating as my time is limited...

[DPL]

So you think forms have NOTHING to do with fighting or how to learn how to fight??


minimal to not at all

Let me get this straight. You (cjurakpt) and others have spent an ungodly amount of thread space lecturing SD people about how their forms aren't true CMA, don't have the right flavor, etc., etc. and you don't even think forms matter when learning to fight?

WTF, dude? What in the h3ll does it matter then? If no one practicing forms regularly is providing themselves any significant martial benefit, regardless of the 'flavor' of the forms they're doing, why all the emotion and energy?

If forms are all worthless as a way to learn to fight (which, last time I checked, is one of the main purposes of most martial arts), then what does it matter if my forms look a little more 'karate-like' or 'kempo-like' than yours?

You guys are like a bunch of little old church ladies, gossiping about the sins of all the other women in church while blissfully ignoring your own faults, and you've decided Shaolin-Do is the church wh0re.

But make sure you forget about all the little indiscretions in your past (or the past of your art) while you're lecturing the wh0re about her behavior, right?

[Shaolin Wookie]

This is where the ethics come in. How can you sleep at night if you support and rrepeat these falsehoods? This is more than just a fanciful history - in Chinese culture you often find an innovation attributed to an ancestor. But claims to be something else that already exists is still fraud, even within that context.

Where are your ethics?

Hahahaha.....I enjoy his martial system more than the other Chinese systems I tried. I don't care what stories he wants to tell. I want to learn Drunken Boxing, and I might be willing to kill just to do so. Luckily, I only have to dedicate some time to his martial art. haha......

BTW, there aren't really any other Grandmasters of Shaolin, are there? There's monks, abbots....not really any grandmasters, eh?

[Mas Judt]

Shaolin Wookie, you made me snort coffee out my nose. THAT was really funny.

[Shaolin Wookie]

JP my man, you are a good guy and a true barrister... the truth of things in the Kuntao world is often never worth worrying about for reasons long explained - but the key point here is that Sin The' is actively marketing his art with statements his own followers claim not to believe.... claims that 'steal' equity from existing methods with claims of being the original and authentic version... while the original and authentic versions still exist and look nothing like SD.... it is a moral quandry.... more than just a fanciful history...


KC - I'll see what I can do - I might even have the heavyweight, he's a local Wushu teacher who has trained in China. I'm going to see if there will be a CSC tournament this year - that way we can have our fun within a context we can mutually control (I've got some weight there) and it will look like just another part of the event rather than a 'big challenge'. I'll need your help coordinating as my time is limited...

BTW, if you want to keep plugging a match between a wushu player and an SD player, I'd be willing to help. I've got a friend at the Longfist school I used to go to named Richie who's been doing contemporary Wushu and traditional Shaolin Ch'uan for something like 6 years. I've been doing SD for about 2 or so, maybe a little more. We've sparred a couple of times (outside of class--as his teacher wouldn't allow sparring at the school he taught out of privately [wasn't his school]), and I completely decimated him. Last time I accidentally unleashed an elbow (we'd agreed to controlled contact, b/c I outweight him, and he's a skinny wushu guy), and he said he didn't want to spar anymore. I find your proposition amusing.

BTW, he tried teaching me some Emei snake (he's excellent at forms, etc.), but I gave up on that. I don't think I had the bendability for it. Can't do wushu to save my life. hahah.....:D

[Mas Judt]

Heh, I don't think you understand what I am talking about when I refer to wushu....

[Chain Whip]

Let me get this straight. You (cjurakpt) and others have spent an ungodly amount of thread space lecturing SD people about how their forms aren't true CMA, don't have the right flavor, etc., etc. and you don't even think forms matter when learning to fight?

WTF, dude? What in the h3ll does it matter then? If no one practicing forms regularly is providing themselves any significant martial benefit, regardless of the 'flavor' of the forms they're doing, why all the emotion and energy?

If forms are all worthless as a way to learn to fight (which, last time I checked, is one of the main purposes of most martial arts), then what does it matter if my forms look a little more 'karate-like' or 'kempo-like' than yours?

You guys are like a bunch of little old church ladies, gossiping about the sins of all the other women in church while blissfully ignoring your own faults, and you've decided Shaolin-Do is the church wh0re.

But make sure you forget about all the little indiscretions in your past (or the past of your art) while you're lecturing the wh0re about her behavior, right?

Well put. This outlook on forms explains the entire problem. I have asked twice whether anyone actually believed that warriors trained like we see in the "accepted" TCMA forms and no one has said "Sure, they put on the silk jammies and danced around and then went out and killed 10 guys" To say that a form is traditional martial arts - but lacks martial effectiveness makes no sense. When cjurakpt says
they do not appear to be that martially oriented - but I don't think that the intent is to be martial, This explains our entire issue with what many of you call TCMA - we think martial arts HAS to be martially oriented - and the intent IS to be martial. Hence the confusion. the "accepted" TCMA guys can't find the connection from forms to fighting - which is to be expected when you do the forms like a dancer. SD people are taught to make the connection between forms and fighting. How can you claim to be "traditional" and do non-martially oriented forms?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Contemporary wushu, right? Or perhaps traditional wushu? Richie studies them both. He's primarily the former, because he's a performer. He admits it, so I'm not bashing him when he says---he can't fight worth a lick. But he's one hell of a performer--better in his 6 years than I'll probably ever be.

BTW....as I'm sure anyone who's ever seen me fight can assure you, I'm no master of fighting. But I can pack a hell of a punch and kick.

[Mas Judt]

This explains our entire issue with what many of you call TCMA - we think martial arts HAS to be martially oriented - and the intent IS to be martial. Hence the confusion. the "accepted" TCMA guys can't find the connection from forms to fighting - which is to be expected when you do the forms like a dancer. SD people are taught to make the connection between forms and fighting. How can you claim to be "traditional" and do non-martially oriented forms?

Wrong. Look, there are a lot of 'kung fu' schools that suck - are not doing the real thing. BUT - the problems with SD, besides the veracity and outright lying on the part of your founder, is that you claim to teach things you don't really 'have.' Just like a modern wushu Taolu player does not 'really have' it. Actual CMA is very systematic - but only recently have the doors opened enough for most to see this.

As far as forms - the reliance on them is a fairly recent innovation. Forms training started as either: Shen fa training, shadow boxing moves, then putting them together as a pre-literate syllabus, then as a way to keep outdoor students busy. Forms are merely part of the equation, and historically, not the most important one. But you should know that right? Your doing things the 'old way' right? With THE GRANDMASTER!!!!! Whoeee, that's snappy for you.

But I shan't talk too much, don't want you 'discovering the things already in your art, just not taught out yet.' ;)

[Mas Judt]

Clarify - say a modern wushu guy doing Xing-yi. They do look a hellava lot better than SD, despite their performance based errors... but learning a form or two does not mean you 'have the style.' far from it. Even worse when you only have a gross imitation.

Now, there is great variety out there, but there are some things that are constant within different schools... why are they not in SD?

[Golden Tiger]

Mas, you have become very bitter in your old age. True, you have always enjoyed throwing around your smack to the delight of your minions, but lately, it seems you have become down right angry. Trouble at home? You little monkey slap not working like it used to? It has to be something cause SD is the same as it always has been.


If you ever need to talk, just vent a little, I am here for ya man....:D

[cjurakpt]

Let me get this straight. You (cjurakpt) and others have spent an ungodly amount of thread space lecturing SD people about how their forms aren't true CMA, don't have the right flavor, etc., etc. and you don't even think forms matter when learning to fight?
eh-yup! maddening, ain't it?


WTF, dude? What in the h3ll does it matter then? If no one practicing forms regularly is providing themselves any significant martial benefit, regardless of the 'flavor' of the forms they're doing, why all the emotion and energy?
GREAT question...see below for "answer"


If forms are all worthless as a way to learn to fight (which, last time I checked, is one of the main purposes of most martial arts), then what does it matter if my forms look a little more 'karate-like' or 'kempo-like' than yours?
not a darn whit...


You guys are like a bunch of little old church ladies, gossiping about the sins of all the other women in church while blissfully ignoring your own faults, and you've decided Shaolin-Do is the church wh0re.
nice analogy - seems to be some sort of recurring relgious theme to your post (BTW, welcome to the parish - 4th pew on the right is free...)


But make sure you forget about all the little indiscretions in your past (or the past of your art) while you're lecturing the wh0re about her behavior, right?
I will be the first to admit that my practiced "styles" are full of so-called indiscretions (I mean, Choih Lei Faht and Taiji - rife with "creative license" - but not so much that they constitute whole-sale fabrications...)

anyway, I'm glad finally that someone got around to "decoding" the whole sub-text of my exegesis;

see, here it is: Sin The has gone a long way, in my estimation, to make a big deal out of the "authenticity" of the forms he teaches, confabulating a particularly outré story-line, starting with Jo-jo the Boy Wonder Dog all the way down to him, the Grand Pre-eminent High Muckaty-muck of Shaolin - spending a lot of "emotion & energy" to validate the authenticity of the forms that are taught; now, based on comparison to other easily identifiable and verifiable Shaolin-based arts, it seems to look a little different, to say the least; well, say the faithful-followers, of course it looks different, because we are actually generating power, etc., etc. and so we can therefore fight better - but the kicker is, none of it actually has any bearing on fighting to begin with - so, ST is propagating a readily debunkable bamboozlement, for absolutely no practical reason in terms of martial skill in the first place! it's indignity heaped upon indignity! I mean, it's bad enough that most people who practice "authentic" TCMA can't fight worth sh!t - now you have people practicing some thrice removed derrivative that they think is the real-deal, and justifying the way they do it as if that is going to have any impact on their ability to fight! (not that SD guys can't fight necessarilly - but if they can, it's got nothing to do with the forms they practice, sorry to say...)

anyway, I think I'm done here, made my contribution to reaching the magic "500" (remember when we were talking about that, some pages back?) - glad someone finally figured out the inherent preposterousness of it all - feel free to flame away at your collective leisure...

[Chain Whip]

Chain Whip
This explains our entire issue with what many of you call TCMA - we think martial arts HAS to be martially oriented - and the intent IS to be martial. Hence the confusion. the "accepted" TCMA guys can't find the connection from forms to fighting - which is to be expected when you do the forms like a dancer. SD people are taught to make the connection between forms and fighting. How can you claim to be "traditional" and do non-martially oriented forms?



Mas Judt
Wrong. Look, there are a lot of 'kung fu' schools that suck - are not doing the real thing. BUT - the problems with SD, besides the veracity ..........

Normally if one starts a reply with "Wrong" you would proceed to explain what was wrong with the statement. Seeing that you didn't address my point at all I'm left with the conclusion you disagree with my position and firmly believe that traditional forms do NOT have to be martial in content. If this is the case then you need to start being honest and leave the word "martial" out of the conversation regarding "traditional martial arts." Call it whatever you want but it isn't ethical to say this a martial arts form - but it it has no martial content.

Can you answer a simple question - yes or no will be fine. Do you believe that old Chinese warriors preparing for warfare trained like we see in this clip that was recently provided as an example of "Traditional Chinese Martial Arts?" http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-595785909503964460

[Mas Judt]

Ah, when unable to respond to a question, resort to personal attacks. Funny how character shows in the actions.

These are simple questions. They are very disturbing, yet very few confront them head on.

Sin The' is obviously lieing - he is claiming the stelle was specially to honor him - not a paid tribute to the temple as such stelle's are. He claims to be THE GRANDMASTER of Shaolin, which is a funny thing to claim.

It is a real moral question. Perhaps the most important question.

[Mas Judt]

Chain Whip,
I'd ask you to read the rest of the paragraph. If I was not clear enough - your buddies school is not representative of good CMA. There is a LOT of charlatan out there besides your GRANDMASTER OF SHAOLIN. So don't feel bad. They even use many of the same rationalizations.

Honestly, if you REALLY believe what you are saying, it is too late for you, and no real point in trying to use reason.

At this point we have reached the OYD stage. While I don't think you guys s@ck as much as them (there is some kinda hybrid thingy beneath all the badly understood forms), you wouldn't know CMA if it bit you on the @ss, and you willingly follow the BS stories of your teacher - this is no different than OYD and their legend of 'BAGWAAAAA.'

If you knowingly pass on a lie... not just a fable about the style, but a lie used to sell new students on your school, what kind of person are you?

[Mas Judt]

The Kun Lun clip shows none of the usage or actual training, just the form. I won't judge what they are doing from just a form of a system I am not familiar with. (As opposed to SD, which I have seen first hand.)

There is a substantial body of knowledge on how training was actually performed in a wide variety of styles - largely due to the opening of society, ironically under the PRC regime. there is a tremendous amount of really good stuff, the old stuff still out there in the land of it's birth. And to dismiss this is to repeat a foolish lie that many used who sought to take advantage of ignorant Westerners.

There has been a great deal of scholarship on this subject, but I'm sure none of it interests one who 'knows the truth', right?

[Mas Judt]

Chain Whip - do you beleve old 'Chinese Warriors' prepared for battle by training like Shaolin Do?

[cjurakpt]

Can you answer a simple question - yes or no will be fine. Do you believe that old Chinese warriors preparing for warfare trained like we see in this clip that was recently provided as an example of "Traditional Chinese Martial Arts?" http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-595785909503964460
no; and that would hold true to ANY form that you might happen to post, because Chinese warriors preparing for "battle" trained in a completely different context, namely to fight as a group using the latest technology available to them; so probably the training involved moving as large units to signals such as trumpets and waving flags, and then using their weaponry accordingly: bow & arrow, pikes, etc.; there would probably also be training geared towards personal arms use, but that would probably not be done by doing forms...

forms training is a different phennomenon, more likely the result of the battlefield warrior turned layman MA instructor, needing to pay his rent and keep students, especially the ones that could afford his tuition (upper class types who wanted to play weekend warrior); or as a means of exercise for monks; or a way to keep newbies busy in a MA school; but definitely not a way to train actual soldiers for actual battlefield combat (maybe to keep them physically fit in times of relative peace...)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Chain Whip,
I'd ask you to read the rest of the paragraph. If I was not clear enough - your buddies school is not representative of good CMA. There is a LOT of charlatan out there besides your GRANDMASTER OF SHAOLIN. So don't feel bad. They even use many of the same rationalizations.

Honestly, if you REALLY believe what you are saying, it is too late for you, and no real point in trying to use reason.

At this point we have reached the OYD stage. While I don't think you guys s@ck as much as them (there is some kinda hybrid thingy beneath all the badly understood forms), you wouldn't know CMA if it bit you on the @ss, and you willingly follow the BS stories of your teacher - this is no different than OYD and their legend of 'BAGWAAAAA.'

If you knowingly pass on a lie... not just a fable about the style, but a lie used to sell new students on your school, what kind of person are you?

Yes, I see it now. Shaolin-Do is just like Chung Moo......yes, it is all becoming clear.

Seriously, did you get raped by an SD practitioner or something? Do you have some kind of kool-aid fixation? (perhaps you were brainwashed by too many Kool-Aid commercials?) Lol @ your antics, Mas.............I find you amusing.

If you go to Shaolin-do, it's basically the same thing as anywhere else. You sign on for a couple of months, you can come and go as you please, and you can punch and kick. Nobody harps on the lineage. We don't bow down before pictures of the Grandmaster and burn incense in his image, pour out libations on the floor, and dance like wild gypsies.

(You have to pay extra for all that).

Although I did find it strange that I had to sign that contract with the blood of a newborn infant born on the winter solstice, and could only sign it on the eve of a full moon.

[synack]

:eek::eek::eek::D:D:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

I guess what I'm saying is.....

Put down the kool-aid, Mas. Don't believe everything you read on the net.;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

eh-yup! maddening, ain't it?


GREAT question...see below for "answer"


not a darn whit...


nice analogy - seems to be some sort of recurring relgious theme to your post (BTW, welcome to the parish - 4th pew on the right is free...)


I will be the first to admit that my practiced "styles" are full of so-called indiscretions (I mean, Choih Lei Faht and Taiji - rife with "creative license" - but not so much that they constitute whole-sale fabrications...)

anyway, I'm glad finally that someone got around to "decoding" the whole sub-text of my exegesis;

see, here it is: Sin The has gone a long way, in my estimation, to make a big deal out of the "authenticity" of the forms he teaches, confabulating a particularly outré story-line, starting with Jo-jo the Boy Wonder Dog all the way down to him, the Grand Pre-eminent High Muckaty-muck of Shaolin - spending a lot of "emotion & energy" to validate the authenticity of the forms that are taught; now, based on comparison to other easily identifiable and verifiable Shaolin-based arts, it seems to look a little different, to say the least; well, say the faithful-followers, of course it looks different, because we are actually generating power, etc., etc. and so we can therefore fight better - but the kicker is, none of it actually has any bearing on fighting to begin with - so, ST is propagating a readily debunkable bamboozlement, for absolutely no practical reason in terms of martial skill in the first place! it's indignity heaped upon indignity! I mean, it's bad enough that most people who practice "authentic" TCMA can't fight worth sh!t - now you have people practicing some thrice removed derrivative that they think is the real-deal, and justifying the way they do it as if that is going to have any impact on their ability to fight! (not that SD guys can't fight necessarilly - but if they can, it's got nothing to do with the forms they practice, sorry to say...)

anyway, I think I'm done here, made my contribution to reaching the magic "500" (remember when we were talking about that, some pages back?) - glad someone finally figured out the inherent preposterousness of it all - feel free to flame away at your collective leisure...

Hahaha......you are one cynical, manaical fella......

[Mas Judt]

Wookie, let me clarify (I'm afraid you guys might not grasp English) - my point was - a BIG lie is propogated by the leader of your style - as a marketing ploy - just like OYD. I was very careful NOT to otherwise compare you to them, as they are beneath contempt with true criminal behavior.

Although it is very interesting that personal attacks again are used instead of answering my questions. But not unexpected, which is sad.

[cjurakpt]

Hahaha......you are one cynical, manaical fella......

smile when you say that...;)

[Mas Judt]

Nah Wookie, I just enjoy messing with a cult of personality. Never liked them very much. And when built on a foundation of purposeful lies, it becomes even more fun, as the only resort from those that are part of it is to name call and try to deflect, because to face the lies directly shakes the foundation.

FWIW - Never liked sugary drinks. Always preferred bitter.

[Baqualin]

:eek::eek::eek::D:D:D

:D:D:eek::eek:

[MasterKiller]

Put down the kool-aid, Mas. Don't believe everything you read on the net.;)

Does that include everything your grandmaster says about himself?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I find you amusing. That's not an insult, is it? The rest is just jokes, man. I have an abrasive sense of humor.

To be honest, GM The' can claim to be the Wild Man of Borneo for all I care. All I want to know is can he, or more importantly, his students, teach me how to fight. Marketing is marketing. It's not going to hurt anyone. He obviously thinks what he does is Shaolin. So do others here. I am of the opinion it is a Shaolin influenced kuntao hybrid. Some others here agree with me. He is a Shaolin-do (hence, Shaolin) Grandmaster. He is the 10th degree rank holder in Shaolin Do, and the youngest Grandmaster of Shaolin-do (there were only 3 after all, lol).

He is not the Grandmaster of the Shaolin temple. He is not the highest ranking member of the Shaolin temple. He has two steles at Chinese temples. Su Xi atteneded one of the ceremonies (There are pictures). So obviously Su Xi doesn't have a problem with what GM The' is saying. Sure, he took a monetary donation in exchange. So isn't Su Xi a marketing hack? Isn't he now a morally defunct cretin who should be dishonored and defecated upon? Of course not.

How GM The' wants to tell the stories, and how they're marketed is not really that big of a deal, unless you're a superficial kind of guy. Just like it's no big deal that Shaolin abbots took donations of money in exchange for stone tablets and cameo's on the red carpet for Sin The's trip to China. Can't fault one without faulting the other. The end result? It ain't that big of a deal.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Does that include everything your grandmaster says about himself?

Yes, of course.

BTW, sometimes I lie about the size of my package, as I am afraid women will be too intimidated by its mammoth-like girth.

[MasterKiller]

BTW, sometimes I lie about the size of my package, as I am afraid women will be too intimidated by its mammoth-like girth.

I doubt the kinds of women you'd attract care how big your clit is.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Nah Wookie, I just enjoy messing with a cult of personality. Never liked them very much. And when built on a foundation of purposeful lies, it becomes even more fun, as the only resort from those that are part of it is to name call and try to deflect, because to face the lies directly shakes the foundation.

FWIW - Never liked sugary drinks. Always preferred bitter.

Me too. I provoked some Scientologists in the Atlanta area about a year ago, and they tracked my identity (scary that the nutjobs were able to do so), then called up one of my jobs (Statewide Law Enforcement), told them that I was a "disseminator of religious hatred" and had "put on anti-religious demonstrations that impinged upon the copyrighted technology of the Church of Scientology", and nearly got me fired. Luckily, someone in the bureau knew how Scientology operated (which is to say, shadily), and came to my rescue. I was getting threatening letters from Kobrin...so you know I must have touched a nerve.

And all this came from a small debate I had with a couple of Scientologists on a university campus, who were offering their "personality tests" undercover to try and wheedle unsuspecting nimrods into attending one of their sessions. I managed to scare off all of hte unsuspecting nimrods, but was a bit of an unsuspecting nimrod myself, b/c I didn't know how far those psychos would go.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I doubt the kinds of women you'd attract care how big your clit is.

While I admit that my local chapter for the Coalition for the Liberation of Itinerant Tree-Dwellers is rather large, it's still nowhere near the size of the LABIA (The Liberate Apes Before Imprisoning Apes Movement).

[cjurakpt]

Me too. I provoked some Scientologists in the Atlanta area about a year ago.
I used to mess with Scientologists at street fairs in NYC by squeezing their e-meters (or whatever they are called) really hard whenever I told them that I was thinking about my cat, sending the needle way off the screen; Id also give it a squeeze and hold it when they id the initial calibration, and then stop squeezing, making them have to re-calibrae, rinse, repeat (they never caught on - idiots...); they would also do the "pinch test" on my friend (girl) who had an incredibly high threshold for pain and they were never be able to illicit any sort of response whatsoever

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Mas Judt;
the only resort from those that are part of it is to name call and try to deflect, because to face the lies directly shakes the foundation.


I'm part of it and I'll say what I've always said.... JP has said the same thing.....GMS believes what has been passed on to him by GMIe (true or false) taking into consideration where he's from, I will not fault him for that......we know that GMIe existed & the school in Indo. existed along with other teachers, we've been there.....some of us know his and his brothers family...including children....they all seem to be comfortable with the lineage as it is presented.
I can go on all day long...will it make a difference, nah......do I care, nah;)

Did I attack anybody or name call:)
BQ

[Mas Judt]

Wookie, I was going to take apart your argument until I saw your posts on messing with cults. Now, I won't mess with you, not becase you are even close to being correct or even logical, but because you're a righteous dude.

Look out for the Operating Thetans.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Lol......



Hey BQ. I've seen vids of Indonesian martial arts training back in the sixties and seventies, usually associated with Silat. It was the most hardcore stuff I've ever seen. People jumping literally from fifty foot platforms to the ground without cushioning; jumping through glass; having boiling oil poured on parts of their bodies; etc. I am curious.

Considering how GM The' came up and trained (Sand palm burning, which actually seems tame in comparison), just how hardcore was his training? I've heard that he and Hiang were some incredibly tough dudes in their prime (not that they're soft now, or anything). Based on stories he tells, it wouldn't seem that out of line with the time and place.

[tattooedmonk]

minially in the sense that there is the slight possibility that you might be doing some of the moves in the forms with the same intrinsic motor patterns that you might use in gihting, and also that, in a very general sense, you are developing fighting-related skills, or are at least in the mind-set of fighting; also, learning techniques "in the air" can be a good way for someone to get the basic, initial idea of a movement, but only provided that the way you practiced it was as close as you could get to how it would look in actual useage

not at all in the sense that the above is tenuous at best, and that otherwise real fighting has absolutely noting to do contextually with forms, in terms of how techniques are delivered, how you adapt to resistance from an opponent, the fact that you are throwing techs in the air versus contacting something, how your mind functions solo versus in confrontation with another person, etc. etc. etc.

throw in the fact that many of the most skilled fighters these days do not train forms, and you are about home...

finally, if you analyze forms practice from a contemporary motor learning perspective, you immediately see that they come out very very low on the continuum of contextual interference, which is probably the key ingredient in terms of developing functional motor skill, in the sense that you need to have a relatively high level of CI in order to get real retention and transfer of a motor skill; what that means is that if you want to be able to successfully fight against a live resisting opponent, you need to spend most of your time training in that context

BTW, before you throw out the old saw about MMA guys being limited by rules and that kung-fu techs are too deadly for the ring, my point is that it's the context that is more important then the content...I agree for the most part with what you are saying . These are the problems with CMA and TMA in general that practice forms, they practice them without disecting them and utilizing the techiniques within the forms and drilling them on a resisiting opponent, they do not demonstrate the forms the way it would be applied.

If they did there would be no problem.:D

I do not practice or teach this way.:D

I never was taught to do forms just for forms sake.I was taught how to take the techniques out of the forms and drill them with resisting opponents and always sparred and fought.:D

Anyone that believes that doing /practicing forms alone will help them become a better fighter is dillussional , and just a beginner.:D

For anyone that wants to learn real martial arts, forms practice is a small percentage of what they should focus on.

Forms give you stability, balance, flexability, speed, agility, etc. in addition, they teach you proper body mechanics , weight distribution, ambidexterity, etc.

Forms are not all of what people think they are, everyone needs to look deep inside them to find the true meaning and stop just looking at the surface

[Judge Pen]

I agree for the most part with what you are saying . These are the problems with CMA and TMA in general that practice forms, they practice them without disecting them and utilizing the techiniques within the forms and drilling them on a resisiting opponent, they do not demonstrate the forms the way it would be applied.

If they did there would be no problem.:D

I do not practice or teach this way.:D

I never was taught to do forms just for forms sake.I was taught how to take the techniques out of the forms and drill them with resisting opponents and always sparred and fought.:D

Anyone that believes that doing /practicing forms alone will help them become a better fighter is dillussional , and just a beginner.:D

For anyone that wants to learn real martial arts, forms practice is a small percentage of what they should focus on.

Forms give you stability, balance, flexability, speed, agility, etc. in addition, they teach you proper body mechanics , weight distribution, ambidexterity, etc.

Forms are not all of what people think they are, everyone needs to look deep inside them to find the true meaning and stop just looking at the surface

Well said.

[brucereiter]

Can't believe I'm subscribed to this thread, nor that it's gone for so long. I remember when it started ...


Hi Bruce,

I don't formally learn tai chi, yang or any other style, but your movements are very limb oriented. It's "empty", there's no body behind it. I see no opening or closing, no torquing, your body seems static the whole way through. Sure, you turn and move but it's driven by your feet. Your arms move but they move alone, not through your centre. Compared to tcma, it's not necessarily strange or a cheap rip off because I see a lot of empty tcma too, at least on youtube vids. The way I learn (almost?) all movement should originate in the lower dan tien and all movements should be whole body, not limb. So, e.g. at ~19s you step with your left leg, weight it and turn to your left. It's not driven by your body. If I did the move, my leg would turn because it had to, because my centre would've turned it. Hard to explain, easy to show, hard to do.

I'm sure you could develop good mechanics if you specialised in yang style tai chi, but I guess that's the downfall of SD - as soon as you learn the basics of something you change to something completely different (at least from what I recall of the syllabus).

ok ... even though you do not formally learn any style of tai chi chuan thanks for commenting.

best,

bruce

[tattooedmonk]

Well said.Thank you!:D

[cjurakpt]

ok ... even though you do not formally learn any style of tai chi chuan thanks for commenting.

best,

bruce

just curious Bruce, if you had noticed that I responded to your inquiry...

[cjurakpt]

I agree for the most part with what you are saying . These are the problems with CMA and TMA in general that practice forms, they practice them without disecting them and utilizing the techiniques within the forms and drilling them on a resisiting opponent, they do not demonstrate the forms the way it would be applied.

If they did there would be no problem.:D

I do not practice or teach this way.:D

I never was taught to do forms just for forms sake.I was taught how to take the techniques out of the forms and drill them with resisting opponents and always sparred and fought.:D

Anyone that believes that doing /practicing forms alone will help them become a better fighter is dillussional , and just a beginner.:D

For anyone that wants to learn real martial arts, forms practice is a small percentage of what they should focus on.

Forms give you stability, balance, flexability, speed, agility, etc. in addition, they teach you proper body mechanics , weight distribution, ambidexterity, etc.

Forms are not all of what people think they are, everyone needs to look deep inside them to find the true meaning and stop just looking at the surface
fair enough; but here's a question: why bother to do the forms at all if you need to dissasmble them in order to "figure out" what they "mean" and drill techniques individually? why not just teach the techniques / apps as such and not waste time "figuring out" things in forms that may or may not be valid / relevant when actually pressure tested live?

also, isn't it a little preposterous to have a system of 900+ forms to begin with, not to mention using it as a selling point when advertising, especially with the perspective you espouse?

[B-Rad]

When learning something new I always learned best by learning individual techniques first, short combos, then the full form (with application and conditioning throughout the process of course).

[tattooedmonk]

fair enough; but here's a question: why bother to do the forms at all if you need to dissasmble them in order to "figure out" what they "mean" and drill techniques individually? why not just teach the techniques / apps as such and not waste time "figuring out" things in forms that may or may not be valid / relevant when actually pressure tested live?

also, isn't it a little preposterous to have a system of 900+ forms to begin with, not to mention using it as a selling point when advertising, especially with the perspective you espouse?That is not how it works.

The forms are like books of techniques . The master takes the techniques out of the forms , teaches them to you , you drill them , then you are taught the forms, after that you practice the forms more , drill them more ,break them down even further, and discover more techniques, then the cycle starts all over again.

As for the large percentage of forms, it is like I said they are like books and books with series or volumes are like systems and collections of books are like libraries.

If someone likes to read and gain knowledge then a library would be more valuable to them than just one book. Not to say that you could not get a lot out of one book , but it would be limited.

Master Sin is the librarian of this library .:D

[tattooedmonk]

When learning something new I always learned best by learning individual techniques first, short combos, then the full form (with application and conditioning throughout the process of course).Exactly!!!

[Baqualin]

That is not how it works.

The forms are like a book of techniques . The master takes the techniques out of the form , teaches them to you , you drill them , then you are taught the form, after that you practice the forms more , drill them more ,break them down even further, and discover more techniques, then the cycle starts all over again.

As for the large percentage of forms, it is like I said they are like books and books with series or volumes are like systems and collections of books are like libraries.

If someone likes to read and gain knowledge then a library would be more valuable to them than just one book. Not to say that you could not get a lot out of one book , but it would be limited.

Master Sin is the librarian of this library .:D

Exactly.....I try to get my students to realize that forms are their reference library.....take from the forms what you like & what fits your size and frame for fighting purposes....but always continue to drill the entire form for reasons you stated earlier and to retain the reference library. After a while you can begin to blend different techniques from different systems, such as Tai Chi, Pakua & Hsingi on the internal side or Hua, Tiger & dragon on the external side or even internal & external blends....Drunken & Pakua or Drunken & Chen Tai Chi would be pretty cool...I bet Wookie would like that.:cool:
BQ

[Judge Pen]

fair enough; but here's a question: why bother to do the forms at all if you need to dissasmble them in order to "figure out" what they "mean" and drill techniques individually? why not just teach the techniques / apps as such and not waste time "figuring out" things in forms that may or may not be valid / relevant when actually pressure tested live?

also, isn't it a little preposterous to have a system of 900+ forms to begin with, not to mention using it as a selling point when advertising, especially with the perspective you espouse?


Because many people enjoy the aesthetics of forms; they are fun. Practicing them is calming and good excercise. It's not the most efficient way, but some people enjoy taking the long and scenic road. In the end, if drilled properly like we are talking about, the roads do lead to the same place.

[Baqualin]

Keeps me from getting bored with the same old routine.

[Shaolin Wookie]

After a while you can begin to blend different techniques from different systems, such as Tai Chi, Pakua & Hsingi on the internal side or Hua, Tiger & dragon on the external side or even internal & external blends....Drunken & Pakua or Drunken & Chen Tai Chi would be pretty cool...I bet Wookie would like that.:cool:
BQ

You betcha. Although I'm not that enthusiastic about learning pakua, one of the reasons I'm forcing myself back into the internal arts right now (besides the fact I'll have to do it eventually, and might as well do it now to give myself more time with it), is the circularity, footwork, and body movements involved in the art. I can see those coming in handy for the drunken stuff. I know it's a long way down the road, but I've got my eyes locked on what I want from Shaolin-Do, so that's a good thing, I think. I practice the hell out of Crazy Mad Drunk, so at least I'll have a little taste to tide me over for the next, oh, decade or so.:D

BTW, Drunken & Capoeira seems like the coolest, most logical progression to me. Mobility close to the floor, most kicks done while spinning, or from a well-balanced, off kilter position with both hands on the floor. Lots of evasion, bobbing, constant movement, rhythm and head games involved, as well. I don't know if anyone here has ever seen a capoeira mestre (20+ years in the art) move across a floor, but he looks liquid; it's the only reason I'd ever dredge up the word "rad" and use it in the year 2007. And even though the dudes are spinning, bending over and kicking, etc, they keep eye contact the entire friggin' time, looking up from the strangest angles.

[brucereiter]

just curious Bruce, if you had noticed that I responded to your inquiry...

hi cjurakpt,

please see my long winded ( lol ... ) response below.


well, compared to classical Yang Family set (which I don't do myself), some of the moves are different or missing

when compared to forms like the 108 or 104 for example there are several postures omitted such as fan through back and needle at the bottom of the sea ... etc ...
if you are comparing it to yang zhengduo tai chi chuan yes i do it differently. http://youtube.com/watch?v=t_hCCTTG3UY



(e.g. - you do brush knee only 2x and only with the left foot forward, as opposed to 5x;


this is true in our version in the first part of the form
below i listed the names of the postures for what we call section 2 and a clip of me doing it. the 5x rep brush the knee you are speaking of is in section 4 of the form

this is section 2 of our yang form (http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ)
single whip
raise the hand lower the hand and lean forward
white crane spreads its wings
brush the knee and push forward
hands play the guitar
step deflect step punch
as if sealed as if closed
cross hand posture
(i ended here in the clip)
grab tiger and return to mountain
ward off
roll back
press
push
single whip slanting/diagonal

having said all of that i think the reps do not matter if you do 3/5/7/9 etc ... who cares.
when i work on individual postures i will do brush the knee over and over for 20-30 minutes ... ... ...



you don't have "raising up the hands" in between dan bin and bak hok leung chi;


i am sorry but i do not understand the dialect you are using "dan bin" "bak hok leung chi"

i will assume "dan bin" is single whip. and "bak hok leung" is white crane spreads its wings. i do not speak chinese and was taught mostly in english.
that is the way i do "raise the hand; lower the hand"



you do some extra movements with the left hand and don't have the twisting step going into bun lan choih);


since there are hundreds of versions/styles of yang tai chi chuan how can you call them "extra"



I wouldn't call it strange per se,
thanks :-) lol ...



but it certainly is not classical Yang

"classical" the way it is used to describe martial arts is such a loose term. i would ask how you can define that word. i call it "yang 64" or "yang tai chi chuan".



what you presented specifically looks like an alteration of the Yang set,

ok, i can accept that as i am not under the impression that i am practicing "exactly" as yang luchan did lol ... ... i am sure it has been altered by each person who has taught it and practiced it.




which hey, if someone has done tai chi as their primary art for some years and feel that they have the purview to make some well-informed changes, that's cool;

i agree. making changes to a form/style before your skill has developed is not good.



tai chi is certainly not one big happy family with everyone doing the same form, that's for sure;

lol this is sooo true.



so BTW, who changed around the form to the version you do?
i do not know.

my teacher taught me and his teacher taught him and his teacher learned it in indonisia at some time in the 1960's, from who??? i personally can not verify but i think it was ie chang ming. who taught him. i do not know what the actual instruction was like.

it would be interesting to learn who from the yang family (or students of the yangs) introduced the version of yang tai chi chuan that we do to our system.


best,

bruce

p.s. that took a long time to post ... lol ... :-)

[cjurakpt]

having said all of that i think the reps do not matter if you do 3/5/7/9 etc ... who cares.
actually, from a taoist internal alchemical perspective, which is what lies at the heart of tai chi practice even more so than it's supposed efficacy as a martial art, it matters a great deal; that is because the entire form is constructed very specifically based on Taoist cosmology, so the number of brush knees, single whips, etc. are very specific, as are the directions in which they are done (you have to imagine yourself doing the form ontop of a big I Ching hexagram pre-natal diagram; the "point" of it is essentially generation of the Elixir of Immortality (Golden Pill; the "dan", etc.) as the end result;

so for example, the first five brush knees (and this is a "family secret" so to speak) are each done slightly differently, because each one is representitive of one of the 5 phases / elements; doing all five, you are generating a specific "build up" of energies, which are then culminated and transformed at the end of the first chapter by the "downward parry punch" move (another reasn why what happens with the hands is of significane); likewise, the number of "dan bin" is important, because this movement is actually considered one of if not the most important in terms of internal alchemical practice (if, of course, you choose to believe in this sort of thing...;) ); in fact, the translation of "dan bin" as single whip is only one of several possible ones: "dan bin" can also be translated as "transforming the elixir" (literally, "cinnabar transformation" - cinnabar being a precursor to mercury, which, due to it's observed properties, the Taoists associated with immortality - of course, some took this literally, ingsted the stuff and ended up joining the ranks of immortals a bit more directly then pehaps they had wished for...), which is why its placement in the form is importan; actually, I believe that my teacher, Master Sat Hon, will ave an article discussing the "lost roots" of tai chi (it's alchemical transformative function) in an upcoming issue of Asian Journal of Martial Arts where he discusses all this in much greater detail

so anyway, yeah, the numbers do matter...or not...

[cjurakpt]

when compared to forms like the 108 or 104 for example there are several postures omitted such as fan through back and needle at the bottom of the sea ... etc ...
why are they omitted?


this is true in our version in the first part of the form
below i listed the names of the postures for what we call section 2 and a clip of me doing it. the 5x rep brush the knee you are speaking of is in section 4 of the form
this is section 2 of our yang form (http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ)
single whip etc.
it seems to be in a different order - typically the 5x brush knee is in the first road / section / chapter


that is the way i do "raise the hand; lower the hand"
it did not seem to be readily apparant when I looked at it, hence my statement it was "missing"


since there are hundreds of versions/styles of yang tai chi chuan how can you call them "extra"
there is only one "true" Yang style - which is what the Yang Family currnetly says is the "official" version; there are hundreds (perhaps) of derrivatives thereof, but technically they are no longer Yang


if you are comparing it to yang zhengduo tai chi chuan yes i do it differently.

"classical" the way it is used to describe martial arts is such a loose term. i would ask how you can define that word. i call it "yang 64" or "yang tai chi chuan".
"classical" Yang would be the version of the form that is curently taught "officially" by the Yang family and its representatives; if you are doing it differently, the technically it's not Yang family anymore (not that that necessarilly matters per se, but it is a misnomer)


ok, i can accept that as i am not under the impression that i am practicing "exactly" as yang luchan did lol ... ... i am sure it has been altered by each person who has taught it and practiced it.
no - you don't do the jumping or spinning kicks or the low spinning sweeps...;)
yes - it has been altered ad liberatum, ad nauseum, ad absurdum by many...


i agree. making changes to a form/style before your skill has developed is not good.
well, it is what it is - the question is, what informs that change?


my teacher taught me and his teacher taught him and his teacher learned it in indonisia at some time in the 1960's, from who??? i personally can not verify but i think it was ie chang ming. who taught him. i do not know what the actual instruction was like.
it would be interesting to learn who from the yang family (or students of the yangs) introduced the version of yang tai chi chuan that we do to our system.

yes, it would be...

[cjurakpt]

Because many people enjoy the aesthetics of forms; they are fun. Practicing them is calming and good excercise. It's not the most efficient way, but some people enjoy taking the long and scenic road. In the end, if drilled properly like we are talking about, the roads do lead to the same place.
I would agree up to the part about the end destination - you won't end up in the same place as someone who practices fighting skills based purely on live interraction and constant pressure testing; however, that may not be where you want to end up anyway...
but what I do like is the point you make about forms practice being "not the most efficient" - this is very Daoist - the meandering path represents the integrated function of the Dao more so than the straight line; as such, taking the Daoist route towards liberation is not the direct, obvious one - taking the scenic route is actually important, as it gives one the oportunity to develop in a non-linear manner; now, i am of course talking from a tai chi perspective, in the sense that as I practice the form, it has nothing to do with martial skill development, and it doesn't even necessarilly involve health per se; it is, rather, a vehicle for self-awareness, self-transformation - and I don't mean that in the abstract sense, but in a very concrete way, in terms of very specific psychological and physiological changes that occur over time - but the kicker is, the harder you try to "make" it happen, the longer it takes...much better to take a drive through the hills without too much concern about where you think you are going...

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah, but take a drive through Atlanta with the same mindset, and you wind up in the hood and some pretty rough neighborhoods with dead-end streets.;)

Funny thing; I got this new uniform that has a thicker weave and doesn't cling to me when I sweat (and I sweat a lot), and everyone said that everything I did today looked 100X better, and they thought it was the uniform.....hahaha........

Usually by the end of hte 3 1/2 hours I spend at the school when I go, I'm soaked from head to toe (kinda gross, I guess, but I'm a man, baby), so I guess I look a little worn out. And the old pants sagged and hung loose, so my stances always looked shallow.

I found this whole situation very humorous. I look more official or fluent based on what I'm wearing?

Seriously, though. Have you ever seen a dude doing kung-fu in shorts? It does actually look different than some of us expect. It looks.....shocker!!!....choppier than when you're wearing silk pyjamas.....lol.

[DPL]

Do you believe

That Sin The' is THE Shaolin Grand master?

I believe he believes it. Obviously not of the modern temple but based on the history he was taught and handed down.



That Shaolin Do is the original and authentic art?

I believe it's evolved from original and authentic material. How it evolved and whether that evolution will ever be deemed acceptable by moral high-ground folks such as yourself is very clearly up for eternal debate.



That the reason kung fu in China is different is because it is a lesser variant of the true original style?

Some SD folks think that but as far as I've been able to tell it's not SD doctrine - just opinion. In my opinion, of course it's not a lesser variant. It's just different.

The big difference here is, SD folks don't launch into five-billion-post diatribes trying to convince you guys how your art sucks, even though a lot of what we see in vids of other people's arts, well, sucks. Some of it's good, some of it's great, lots of it sucks. Making it no different than anything else.



That the reason your stuff looks like Karate is because it is 'for combat.'? (Heard from SD students.)

Again, not SD doctrine. I'd never actually heard this one until I got on this forum. I'd heard that our stuff more closely resembles things done 'the old way', but as far as I can tell just about everyone claims that so I don't see why that's any special crime of ours. Except of course that we're the church wh0re, so anything we do is automatically worse than the exact same thing done by someone else.



That the Shaolin monks honored Sin The' by erecting a stele in his honor?

I honestly know nothing about this other than what I've read on internet forums, and I trust that feedback, from both sides, about as far as I trust new Wikipedia entries.

That being said, your 'moral outrage' on this one mystifies me the most. I've read numerous references, on this forum, other forums, cultural analyses of China, that this type of 'wink wink, nudge nudge' stuff happens in China all the time. But with Shaolin-do, it's this great and evil scheme to dupe the masses of America.

H3ll, most of the posters on here at one time or another have acknowledged that the Chinese have a history of filling Westerners' heads with tall tales about ancient secrets to dupe them out of cash, and it's treated as an amusing character quirk. Unless, of course, it's Shaolin-do the church wh0re.

Even though every Shaolin-do school I've ever visited has a lower monthly fee than any competition in the area, sometimes by a margin of one-half to one-third, and the bulk of the SD teachers I've met would instantly drop what they're doing to help a student in need, they're still morally corrupt crooks as ruled by you, Internet Judge Wapner.

Honestly, dude, you live in the United States of America, a country that's told easily as many lies to protect its interests as any other country in the world. H3ll, you're probably living on old Native American land right now, which was acquired through a series of broken promises to Native Americans. How do you sleep at night, when the bulk of the Native American population is living in poverty? How do you live with yourself?

Americans are culturally phenomenal at waving the morality/ethics flag at others while gently masturbat1ng themselves about how great they are and how corrupt others are. Get over it. 'Let he who is without sin...' and all that.



These are things the 'grandmaster' says on his website. Do YOU believe them?

Umm, no, only three of the five questions from you are mentioned on his web site that I can see.



Honestly, you've got to be quite the tool to believe this tripe.

The funny thing is, all of the legends mean nothing to most folks, in most martial arts. You keep making this big, massive deal about it, but most people choose a place to train based on the feeling they get from their teacher and their fellow students. If they're surrounded by good people, and the teacher can demonstrate knowledge that seems useful, they generally stay and feel good about the training they get.

I can say without qualification that the group I train with in Tennessee is one of the largest collections of genuinely good people I've ever encountered. It's like a family. Not a cult - a family of people who have vastly different beliefs but enjoy each other's company, training together, and learning martial arts.

Cast all the aspersions you want - the reason we stick with it is because we get back more than we put in. Not brainwashing, not kool-aid - enjoyment.

I'm sure there's got to be something wrong with that somehow so please let me know so I can adjust my behavior to match what you think it should be. :rolleyes:

[DPL]

it's indignity heaped upon indignity!

Careful, heaping indignities is a well-known source of the piles...

[brucereiter]

why are they omitted?
i dont know?



it seems to be in a different order - typically the 5x brush knee is in the first road / section / chapter
yes yang 108/104 and some others are as you said.

here is cheng man ching. what we do is similar in many ways.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=USJPmCZ6Efc



there is only one "true" Yang style - which is what the Yang Family currnetly says is the "official" version; there are hundreds (perhaps) of derrivatives thereof, but technically they are no longer Yang

"classical" Yang would be the version of the form that is curently taught "officially" by the Yang family and its representatives; if you are doing it differently, the technically it's not Yang family anymore (not that that necessarilly matters per se, but it is a misnomer)


i call it "yang 64" tai chi chuan.

[tattooedmonk]

certain techniques are omitted and/ or there are variations in the forms because of what the application is through specific ranges of motions.

The Yang style Tai Ji Quan that we do is most commonly called the "Temple Style" it has only been in recent years that it is refered to as "Classical."

I believe it is a "colorful " word used to add credibility to the form.:D

[tattooedmonk]

actually, from a taoist internal alchemical perspective, which is what lies at the heart of tai chi practice even more so than it's supposed efficacy as a martial art, it matters a great deal; that is because the entire form is constructed very specifically based on Taoist cosmology, so the number of brush knees, single whips, etc. are very specific, as are the directions in which they are done (you have to imagine yourself doing the form ontop of a big I Ching hexagram pre-natal diagram; the "point" of it is essentially generation of the Elixir of Immortality (Golden Pill; the "dan", etc.) as the end result;

so for example, the first five brush knees (and this is a "family secret" so to speak) are each done slightly differently, because each one is representitive of one of the 5 phases / elements; doing all five, you are generating a specific "build up" of energies, which are then culminated and transformed at the end of the first chapter by the "downward parry punch" move (another reasn why what happens with the hands is of significane); likewise, the number of "dan bin" is important, because this movement is actually considered one of if not the most important in terms of internal alchemical practice (if, of course, you choose to believe in this sort of thing...;) ); in fact, the translation of "dan bin" as single whip is only one of several possible ones: "dan bin" can also be translated as "transforming the elixir" (literally, "cinnabar transformation" - cinnabar being a precursor to mercury, which, due to it's observed properties, the Taoists associated with immortality - of course, some took this literally, ingsted the stuff and ended up joining the ranks of immortals a bit more directly then pehaps they had wished for...), which is why its placement in the form is importan; actually, I believe that my teacher, Master Sat Hon, will ave an article discussing the "lost roots" of tai chi (it's alchemical transformative function) in an upcoming issue of Asian Journal of Martial Arts where he discusses all this in much greater detail

so anyway, yeah, the numbers do matter...or not...Absolutely true.

The numbers and numerology are very important . But to people that do not know this and/or are trying to maintain control or prevent people from understanding the deeper aspects of the arts they will not teach them the importance of this or will just leave it out and basicaly nulify the importance of it.:D

[Judge Pen]

I would agree up to the part about the end destination - you won't end up in the same place as someone who practices fighting skills based purely on live interraction and constant pressure testing; however, that may not be where you want to end up anyway...
but what I do like is the point you make about forms practice being "not the most efficient" - this is very Daoist - the meandering path represents the integrated function of the Dao more so than the straight line; as such, taking the Daoist route towards liberation is not the direct, obvious one - taking the scenic route is actually important, as it gives one the oportunity to develop in a non-linear manner; now, i am of course talking from a tai chi perspective, in the sense that as I practice the form, it has nothing to do with martial skill development, and it doesn't even necessarilly involve health per se; it is, rather, a vehicle for self-awareness, self-transformation - and I don't mean that in the abstract sense, but in a very concrete way, in terms of very specific psychological and physiological changes that occur over time - but the kicker is, the harder you try to "make" it happen, the longer it takes...much better to take a drive through the hills without too much concern about where you think you are going...


Well then, wouldn't you agree that from a Daoist perspective, the "someone who practices fighting skills based purely on live interraction and constant pressure testing" is missing thei point in practcing by always focusing on the efficacy--the "trying to make it happen" and their skills albeit formidible in the short term, are "shallow" from a Daoist perspective.

And I think our disagreement is rooted in the fact that most people on this meandering road do not also drill effectively and agasint live resistance while taking their time to discover themselves and the art through their forms practice. To that end, they get lost on this road and never reach the end goal of aesthetics, self-awareness, betterment and true martial ability.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Absolutely true.

The numbers and numerology are very important . But to people that do not know this and/or are trying to maintain control or prevent people from understanding the deeper aspects of the arts they will not teach them the importance of this or will just leave it out and basicaly nulify the importance of it.:D

Really, is it important? What does occult philosophy have to do with the martial art? I guarantee the art preceded the numerology applied to the art. Internal alchemy is a hoax, as is all alchemy, so why is it important? Although I think a kind of buddhist/taoist outlook on life is very important in studying shaolin/taoist arts, I also think GM The' did the right thing by preserving a secular martial art--b/c it's not a religion...it's fighting. If you want to know some background info on the art, or some romantic notion of its cosmic significance, it might be cool to know that stuff. But really, come on. Numerology has nothing to do with warding off a punch and pushing.:p

[MasterKiller]

Numerology has nothing to do with warding off a punch and pushing.:p

A lot of the stuff you do in forms is symbolic and not related to fighting at all. If you don't understand that, you don't really understand your kung fu.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think I might disagree with you on that point. Although I can understand how, for instance, my eyebrow height staff form (Sea-Dragon Cane) is named for the Monkey King's escapades in the Eastern Sea Dragon's underwater kingdom, when he basically acted a **** fool and made a nuisance of himself, that only applies to an understanding of its aesthetic appeal. It won't make me a better martial artist. It'll just make me more aware of its artistry, which isn't really a necessary component of the form, so much as a marker of its cultural heritage. Having read the complete sagas of the Water Margin, Three Kingdoms, and Journey to the West won't make me a more complete martial artist. It just gives me a better picture of chinese literature.

Just like we mentioned a while ago. We have a form called Jingang fu hu chien. I've heard it pronounced a million ways, and seen different translations of it. One of hte Atlanta transliterations was "Wu Song defeats the tiger." Well, WuSong was the Tigerkiller, and he notoriously broke a tiger's neck at a mountain (if I recall correctly) called Jingang. I'll cross-check the WM to verify this. Well, the last movement of hte form, you basically rake across a face, grab the back of a head, and slam it into an upward-driving knee. It kind of paralells the legend of WuSong, but knowing this only makes me more aware of its artistry and heritage.....it has nothing to do with the martial art.

[MasterKiller]

I think I might disagree with you on that point.
You can disagree all you want. But that doesn't make it not true.

[Baqualin]

actually, from a taoist internal alchemical perspective, which is what lies at the heart of tai chi practice even more so than it's supposed efficacy as a martial art, it matters a great deal; that is because the entire form is constructed very specifically based on Taoist cosmology, so the number of brush knees, single whips, etc. are very specific, as are the directions in which they are done (you have to imagine yourself doing the form ontop of a big I Ching hexagram pre-natal diagram; the "point" of it is essentially generation of the Elixir of Immortality (Golden Pill; the "dan", etc.) as the end result;

so for example, the first five brush knees (and this is a "family secret" so to speak) are each done slightly differently, because each one is representitive of one of the 5 phases / elements; doing all five, you are generating a specific "build up" of energies, which are then culminated and transformed at the end of the first chapter by the "downward parry punch" move (another reasn why what happens with the hands is of significane); likewise, the number of "dan bin" is important, because this movement is actually considered one of if not the most important in terms of internal alchemical practice (if, of course, you choose to believe in this sort of thing...;) ); in fact, the translation of "dan bin" as single whip is only one of several possible ones: "dan bin" can also be translated as "transforming the elixir" (literally, "cinnabar transformation" - cinnabar being a precursor to mercury, which, due to it's observed properties, the Taoists associated with immortality - of course, some took this literally, ingsted the stuff and ended up joining the ranks of immortals a bit more directly then pehaps they had wished for...), which is why its placement in the form is importan; actually, I believe that my teacher, Master Sat Hon, will ave an article discussing the "lost roots" of tai chi (it's alchemical transformative function) in an upcoming issue of Asian Journal of Martial Arts where he discusses all this in much greater detail

so anyway, yeah, the numbers do matter...or not...

Could you let us know when the article comes out & how to get a copy (hopefully in english). It would be greatly appreaciated
BQ

[Baqualin]

actually, from a taoist internal alchemical perspective, which is what lies at the heart of tai chi practice even more so than it's supposed efficacy as a martial art, it matters a great deal; that is because the entire form is constructed very specifically based on Taoist cosmology, so the number of brush knees, single whips, etc. are very specific, as are the directions in which they are done (you have to imagine yourself doing the form ontop of a big I Ching hexagram pre-natal diagram; the "point" of it is essentially generation of the Elixir of Immortality (Golden Pill; the "dan", etc.) as the end result;

so for example, the first five brush knees (and this is a "family secret" so to speak) are each done slightly differently, because each one is representitive of one of the 5 phases / elements; doing all five, you are generating a specific "build up" of energies, which are then culminated and transformed at the end of the first chapter by the "downward parry punch" move (another reasn why what happens with the hands is of significane); likewise, the number of "dan bin" is important, because this movement is actually considered one of if not the most important in terms of internal alchemical practice (if, of course, you choose to believe in this sort of thing...;) ); in fact, the translation of "dan bin" as single whip is only one of several possible ones: "dan bin" can also be translated as "transforming the elixir" (literally, "cinnabar transformation" - cinnabar being a precursor to mercury, which, due to it's observed properties, the Taoists associated with immortality - of course, some took this literally, ingsted the stuff and ended up joining the ranks of immortals a bit more directly then pehaps they had wished for...), which is why its placement in the form is importan; actually, I believe that my teacher, Master Sat Hon, will ave an article discussing the "lost roots" of tai chi (it's alchemical transformative function) in an upcoming issue of Asian Journal of Martial Arts where he discusses all this in much greater detail

so anyway, yeah, the numbers do matter...or not...

cjurakpt,
I'm a little confused here.....a few post back you seemed to dislike training with forms and now your breaking down the Yang form to it's raw roots in a very knowledgeable way....what gives:confused:
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

Really, is it important? What does occult philosophy have to do with the martial art? I guarantee the art preceded the numerology applied to the art. Internal alchemy is a hoax, as is all alchemy, so why is it important? Although I think a kind of buddhist/taoist outlook on life is very important in studying shaolin/taoist arts, I also think GM The' did the right thing by preserving a secular martial art--b/c it's not a religion...it's fighting. If you want to know some background info on the art, or some romantic notion of its cosmic significance, it might be cool to know that stuff. But really, come on. Numerology has nothing to do with warding off a punch and pushing.:pYes it is . Doing certain patterns in a specific way, in a set numbers of times helps to recalibrate and regulate energy (Qi) and aligns the structural system ( kinetic chain). Not failing to mention opening the gateways of the mind through properly distributing chemicals through the endocrine system, Etc.

The arts are based on theses philosopical systems which were ingrained in Chinese culture , They are symbiotic in nature . You can not have one without the other ( yin yang principle).

I could get really deep and involved in this conversation but I have limited time right now.

And another thing we are not talking about religion we are talking about philosophy, physics , psychology.

This is one of the problems with the system, it has been divorced from the philosophy in addition to the religion .

If the philosophies ( Taoism, Buddhism , Confucianism , Shamanism, Hinduism) was taught and practiced then there would not be all the politics , desention in the ranks, back stabing, etc. Everymaster/ teacher has their own philosophy, and has developed large egos which have no place in what we do.

These philosophies are the foundation of the art and without a foundation the structure is unstable.

The philosophy makes the religion not the other way around.

I understand removing the religious aspects but the arts are based in the philosophies.

Sorry but the philosophies predate any of the formalized material that we practice.

Saying that numerology has nothing to do with it, is like saying that mathmatics has nothing to do with physics and the order of the universe.

You really do not believe in alchemy??

[tattooedmonk]

A lot of the stuff you do in forms is symbolic and not related to fighting at all. If you don't understand that, you don't really understand your kung fu.Very TRUE!!

[cjurakpt]

i dont know?
might be interesting to find out...


here is cheng man ching. what we do is similar in many ways.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=USJPmCZ6Efc
I would say that your form looks more like Cheng's version of the Yang form than anything else, especially in terms of the way the moves are done / the quality of the moves; of course, that would seem illogical given the supposed origin of all forms in SD coming from Sin The and his teacher directly to him...


certain techniques are omitted and/ or there are variations in the forms because of what the application is through specific ranges of motions.
:confused:

The Yang style Tai Ji Quan that we do is most commonly called the "Temple Style" it has only been in recent years that it is refered to as "Classical."
I believe it is a "colorful " word used to add credibility to the form.:D
yeah, the Yang TC form is about as "temple" as my dog; the "classical" nomiker is likewise to make it sound more "genteel", or give it some gravitas


Absolutely true.
The numbers and numerology are very important . But to people that do not know this and/or are trying to maintain control or prevent people from understanding the deeper aspects of the arts they will not teach them the importance of this or will just leave it out and basicaly nulify the importance of it.:D
well, they may or may not be - in other words, they are important in the sense that when the form was "created" they were put in there for specific reasons; they are unimportant in the sense that if you don't buy the initial premise, it doresn't really matter...


Well then, wouldn't you agree that from a Daoist perspective, the "someone who practices fighting skills based purely on live interraction and constant pressure testing" is missing thei point in practcing by always focusing on the efficacy--the "trying to make it happen" and their skills albeit formidible in the short term, are "shallow" from a Daoist perspective.
And I think our disagreement is rooted in the fact that most people on this meandering road do not also drill effectively and agasint live resistance while taking their time to discover themselves and the art through their forms practice. To that end, they get lost on this road and never reach the end goal of aesthetics, self-awareness, betterment and true martial ability.
this is a great question overall - it boils down to "why train?"; for example, you could argue that engagn in training based on conflict is "against" the Dao; on the other hand, you could argue that ALL things are ultimately Dao, so that conflict, being part of Dao is not against it, or that even that, in essence, there is no such thing as conflict even being possible! personally, I think that things take care of themselves: people whos lot it is in life is to fight become adept at it without really trying - e.g. the successful "street fighter" with no formal training; for most people, it's training to slay dragons (most MA students never "need" what they train); I guess I can say that I know what it means for me personally, and I;ll leave the rest up to others


Really, is it important? What does occult philosophy have to do with the martial art? I guarantee the art preceded the numerology applied to the art. Internal alchemy is a hoax, as is all alchemy, so why is it important? Although I think a kind of buddhist/taoist outlook on life is very important in studying shaolin/taoist arts, I also think GM The' did the right thing by preserving a secular martial art--b/c it's not a religion...it's fighting. If you want to know some background info on the art, or some romantic notion of its cosmic significance, it might be cool to know that stuff. But really, come on. Numerology has nothing to do with warding off a punch and pushing.:p
Taoist alchemy has a lot of hoo doo voo doo stuff, but there is also something to be said for the pratice in terms of increasing awareness of one's self in terms of how one engages in habitual action unconsciously (there are many ays to discover this, not just alchemical practice); as far as honing fighting skill per se, no, it's meaningless -


I think I might disagree with you on that point. Although I can understand how, for instance, my eyebrow height staff form (Sea-Dragon Cane) is named for the Monkey King's escapades in the Eastern Sea Dragon's underwater kingdom, when he basically acted a **** fool and made a nuisance of himself, that only applies to an understanding of its aesthetic appeal. It won't make me a better martial artist. It'll just make me more aware of its artistry, which isn't really a necessary component of the form, so much as a marker of its cultural heritage. Having read the complete sagas of the Water Margin, Three Kingdoms, and Journey to the West won't make me a more complete martial artist. It just gives me a better picture of chinese literature.

Just like we mentioned a while ago. We have a form called Jingang fu hu chien. I've heard it pronounced a million ways, and seen different translations of it. One of hte Atlanta transliterations was "Wu Song defeats the tiger." Well, WuSong was the Tigerkiller, and he notoriously broke a tiger's neck at a mountain (if I recall correctly) called Jingang. I'll cross-check the WM to verify this. Well, the last movement of hte form, you basically rake across a face, grab the back of a head, and slam it into an upward-driving knee. It kind of paralells the legend of WuSong, but knowing this only makes me more aware of its artistry and heritage.....it has nothing to do with the martial art.
a lot of this was inserted by Chinese teachers who wanted what they taught to appear more scholarly - basically, if you were a soldier/mercenary/anyone who fought "professionally", you wereconsidered worse than a sewer cleaner in Chinese culture, so if you want to clean up your act, you adopt the "scholar warrior" posture and reframe your fighting knowledge as an art of self-cultivation...


Could you let us know when the article comes out & how to get a copy (hopefully in english). It would be greatly appreaciated
BQ
just look at JAMA when it comes out and you will see if it's in there; although I will probably post an announcement when it comes out


cjurakpt,
I'm a little confused here.....a few post back you seemed to dislike training with forms and now your breaking down the Yang form to it's raw roots in a very knowledgeable way....what gives:confused:
BQ
it's simple really: forms for building fighting skill are a waste of time; forms done as a means of participating in a symbolic transformational process are a different story - they become akin to shammanic ritual, which, if you choose to believe in that sort of thing, requires an in-depth understanding of what you are doing and why you are doing it

[brucereiter]

I would say that your form looks more like Cheng's version of the Yang form than anything else, especially in terms of the way the moves are done / the quality of the moves;

i think it is similar ... but there are several differences ...



of course, that would seem illogical given the supposed origin of all forms in SD coming from Sin The and his teacher directly to him...


that style of yang tai chi chuan is very popular in s.e. Asia. i have no way of knowing from first hand experience ... it is possible the form was learned by gms in indonisia it could have also been learned by ie chang ming in china or in indonisia. i am only adding speculation since i do not know.

[Toby]

ok ... even though you do not formally learn any style of tai chi chuan thanks for commenting.To put my comments in perspective, I learn hsing i from a guy who's done a lot of tai chi and bagua but mostly hsing i over ~20 years, and his teacher has studied internal arts for most of his ~70 years. I get snippets of tai chi at times but don't know any forms. We do a lot of tai chi mechanics for example, which is why I was commenting on structure. I don't know the moves and sequences in the forms but I do know a little about structure.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yes it is . Doing certain patterns in a specific way, in a set numbers of times helps to recalibrate and regulate energy (Qi) and aligns the structural system ( kinetic chain). Not failing to mention opening the gateways of the mind through properly distributing chemicals through the endocrine system, Etc.

The arts are based on theses philosopical systems which were ingrained in Chinese culture , They are symbiotic in nature . You can not have one without the other ( yin yang principle).

I could get really deep and involved in this conversation but I have limited time right now.

And another thing we are not talking about religion we are talking about philosophy, physics , psychology.

This is one of the problems with the system, it has been divorced from the philosophy in addition to the religion .

If the philosophies ( Taoism, Buddhism , Confucianism , Shamanism, Hinduism) was taught and practiced then there would not be all the politics , desention in the ranks, back stabing, etc. Everymaster/ teacher has their own philosophy, and has developed large egos which have no place in what we do.

These philosophies are the foundation of the art and without a foundation the structure is unstable.

The philosophy makes the religion not the other way around.

I understand removing the religious aspects but the arts are based in the philosophies.

Sorry but the philosophies predate any of the formalized material that we practice.

Saying that numerology has nothing to do with it, is like saying that mathmatics has nothing to do with physics and the order of the universe.

You really do not believe in alchemy??


Alchemy is ridiculous in every culture it has popped up in. It's pseudoscience (science hijacked by schizophrenics). If you apply it to tai chi or something, you have to apply it to everything. Hence, you must brush the crumbs off your pants five times, even though one swipe would have sufficed to clean the mess. If you're driving your car and you make a right turn, you'd better **** well turn that wheel five times fully and make five complete circles, because if you don't, you'll throw off your delicate internal chemical balances. You don't cook chemicals in your veins, or control the functions of your liver with breathing techniques, or do irreparable damage to your kidneys by having bad coordination during your single whip movements. You ward off and push to ward off a punch and push.;)

Sure, the alchemy predated Tai Chi, but I guaran****tee that it had precisely dick to do with the structural formulation of the art. I'm sure someone very invested in the alchemical society imposed upon the art his alchemical prejudices to make it more personalized. But come on.....you show me a chemical formula that delineates how the body should move during tai chi, which prescribes motions like ward offs, etc by the various movings and interminglings of hydrogens and carbons, and maybe I'll change my mind. Does hemoglobin react differently to four ward offs as opposed to five? And during which part of the fifth ward off does the hemoglobin begin to realize that something significant has happened?:D

Mathematics has nothing to do with the order (?....ever hear of entropy?:D) of the universe. The universe works a certain way, but often doesn't work that way upon further analysis (I've always preferred Wheeler's description of a "higgledy-piggeldy" universe). You can describe it with mathematics (always fractionally imprecise--take Newton's gravitational principles and Einstein's observations of MErcury). You can describe ti with language. But mathematics is a languange man uses to describe numeric things---all of which are notions exclusive to man. Pythagoras was a wizard with numbers. But he was also a fool who believed numbers had a mystical, divine significance. His findings actually contradict TAoist numerology. So how does one prove which is correct? Pythagoras or Taoist numerology? Can you prove these things? Of course not? So how do you prove which is correct, when you have two unprovable, contradictory things?

Considering the applicablity of Pythagoras's mathematical findings, I'm sorry to inform you that he's far more relevant to today's society than any Taoist sect's numerological nonsense. Hell, I even like his philosophy better.

But I still regard him with mild amusement at his expense.

[Leto]

alchemy, especially in this sense, is a term used to describe tansformation. "Internal alchemy" describes the kind of transformation that occurs in your body and mind through practices like meditation and qigong, which is a part of martial arts. Whatever terminology is used to describe it, be it western like "biochemical" or "psychosomatic" or "bio energetic", or eastern like "qi" or "five elements" or "tonifying organs"...something is happening, transforming in you, through sincere practice of these methods. Numerology is a way of focusing intent, like all ritual designed to lead the cosciousness somewhere. The myth of alchemy, turning lead into gold, is a metaphor.
En"livening" and En"lightening" your Being.
If all you do is fighting, that's fine. Just ignore the spiritual aspects that present themselves to you. But it's always there if there is a turning around in your heart and mind someday.

[Shaolin Wookie]

alchemy, especially in this sense, is a term used to describe tansformation. "Internal alchemy" describes the kind of transformation that occurs in your body and mind through practices like meditation and qigong, which is a part of martial arts. Whatever terminology is used to describe it, be it western like "biochemical" or "psychosomatic" or "bio energetic", or eastern like "qi" or "five elements" or "tonifying organs"...something is happening, transforming in you, through sincere practice of these methods. Numerology is a way of focusing intent, like all ritual designed to lead the cosciousness somewhere. The myth of alchemy, turning lead into gold, is a metaphor.
En"livening" and En"lightening" your Being.
If all you do is fighting, that's fine. Just ignore the spiritual aspects that present themselves to you. But it's always there if there is a turning around in your heart and mind someday.

Although my philosophical thoughts are mirrored by Taoist philosophy, I have a very Stoic attitude towards things, and , I hearken more to Western virtues---pride (putting all effort into an endeavor, as it represents what you are), perserverence, humilty, hard work, and self-reliance.

You're describing a "toned-down" or "moderate" approach to the issue. "Numerology is a way of focusing intent"---I understand what you mean. But if that's the case, numerology is in fact irrelevant. One could just as easily "count sheep as a way of focusing intent".

BTW, the lead into gold wasn't just a metaphor. Some very brilliant people in Western society, great mathematicians and physicists, spent a lot of time attempting the transformation, and only wound up with a ****load of warped lead for their endeavors.

[Leto]

Although my philosophical thoughts are mirrored by Taoist philosophy, I have a very Stoic attitude towards things, and , I hearken more to Western virtues---pride (putting all effort into an endeavor, as it represents what you are), perserverence, humilty, hard work, and self-reliance.

You're describing a "toned-down" or "moderate" approach to the issue. "Numerology is a way of focusing intent"---I understand what you mean. But if that's the case, numerology is in fact irrelevant. One could just as easily "count sheep as a way of focusing intent".

BTW, the lead into gold wasn't just a metaphor. Some very brilliant people in Western society, great mathematicians and physicists, spent a lot of time attempting the transformation, and only wound up with a ****load of warped lead for their endeavors.

The further you go, the more everything is irrelevant. But people have to start somewhere. In order for symbolism to work, it has to have meaning for you. Counting sheep as you jog down the street could be a useful spiritual tool if this had some sort of significance to you, but most likely it doesn't. When everything you do, every single action and thought and word is focused ...that's where transformation occurs, "alchemy". This is the benefit of a life of devotion, such as that of a monk or hermit. The more harmony in your life and actions, the greater the benefit.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I agree with that assessment.

[brucereiter]

To put my comments in perspective, I learn hsing i from a guy who's done a lot of tai chi and bagua but mostly hsing i over ~20 years, and his teacher has studied internal arts for most of his ~70 years. I get snippets of tai chi at times but don't know any forms. We do a lot of tai chi mechanics for example, which is why I was commenting on structure. I don't know the moves and sequences in the forms but I do know a little about structure.


i think some body mechanics translate from art to art so if you "know" one i agree you might be able to "see" another.

as far as my structure goes i guess feeling me would be the only way to know if my structure is sound. ya may ask some who have touched hands with me who are not sd students for their perspective on my structure etc ... i maintain that i do move from my center and i do us my whole body to move ...

do you have any examples of you practicing your art? then we can see a bit more of where you are coming from.

best,

bruce

[Toby]

... i maintain that i do move from my center and i do us my whole body to move ...The way we do it it's very easy to see the centre engaging the rest of the body in some moves. I couldn't see that same connection in your clips. I'm not saying that it's not there, but I couldn't see it.


do you have any examples of you practicing your art? then we can see a bit more of where you are coming from.No, sorry. I don't have a video camera and I've never even thought about filming myself. But props to you for doing so and putting it out there. I enjoy watching demonstrations, there's lots that can be learned.

[bodhi warrior]

I know alot of people recognize Eric Smith as Shaolin do's internal expert, but do some people know he studied with Dr. Yang Ywing Ming in Boston while he attended Harvard Law school? For those that do know, how much of that impacted his study of Shaolin do? Just curious if he discussed some of his training in boston?

[Mas Judt]

This is why I suggest people look at Sin The' - it is easy to for some to cover up or lie about other experience - whereas Sin The' moves like he does, as the head of the system, and all you really need to see is right there.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=bodhi warrior;783208]I know alot of people recognize Eric Smith as Shaolin do's internal expert, but do some people know he studied with Dr. Yang Ywing Ming in Boston while he attended Harvard Law school? For those that do know, how much of that impacted his study of Shaolin do? Just curious if he discussed some of his training in boston?[/QUO

GMS incouraged him & it helped his study of Tai Chi.......but he still stands right next to GMS & is still studying under him not Dr. Ming

[Baqualin]

This is why I suggest people look at Sin The' - it is easy to for some to cover up or lie about other experience - whereas Sin The' moves like he does, as the head of the system, and all you really need to see is right there.

What of Sin The have you actually seen to base this statement on..........if your so curious, why don't you meet go the man

[Golden Tiger]

This is why I suggest people look at Sin The' - it is easy to for some to cover up or lie about other experience - whereas Sin The' moves like he does, as the head of the system, and all you really need to see is right there.


I have watched him move and learned something each time he did so. I have held the kicking bag and felt how hard he could kick and strike it (and I am no little fellow either). Now close to 30 years later, I am still here.

What I haven't done is base my opinions on video clips or demos on the web or heresay from others how haven't experienced what I have.

So, should I go with first hand experience or no hand experience....:rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

I agree GT I too have felt his power and witnessed his speed during Snake Pa Kua people should take the Missouri principle and if the havent seen or experienced it personally not comment on it. " Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth ? " haha KC:)

[brucereiter]

I have watched him move and learned something each time he did so. I have held the kicking bag and felt how hard he could kick and strike it (and I am no little fellow either). Now close to 30 years later, I am still here.

What I haven't done is base my opinions on video clips or demos on the web or heresay from others how haven't experienced what I have.

So, should I go with first hand experience or no hand experience....:rolleyes:

my teacher said something to me "people may talk about how gmt this gmt that but he has never felt or seen anyone punch and kick as fast and as hard and with as much acceleration/explosion ..." that is second hand info that i think is good ... :-)

[Mas Judt]

I would love to meet him.

I can assure you that I am a nice guy in person. If he's really that awesome, I would own up to it. Although, based on the few videos I have seen and student encountered, I'm not holding my breath.

does he live in California now? I make it to both the North and the South at least once a year... I'd even buy dinner.

[Judge Pen]

I would love to meet him.

I can assure you that I am a nice guy in person. If he's really that awesome, I would own up to it. Although, based on the few videos I have seen and student encountered, I'm not holding my breath.

does he live in California now? I make it to both the North and the South at least once a year... I'd even buy dinner.

He's in Southern California. I'm not sure what his schedule is like because he travels around to his students schools regularly.

[Baqualin]

I would love to meet him.

I can assure you that I am a nice guy in person. If he's really that awesome, I would own up to it. Although, based on the few videos I have seen and student encountered, I'm not holding my breath.

does he live in California now? I make it to both the North and the South at least once a year... I'd even buy dinner.

He lives in the West Hills area of LA.....best bet would be to contact the schools in Ca. to see when the next seminar or tourney is....as JP said he's on the road most of the time.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hey guys, some questions from the Wook:

I have a couple of forms for which I have names/lyrics for each of the movements:

1st Golden Leopard
2nd Road SL Double Daggers

Are there similar notes on the lyrics for all of our lower belt forms (yellow-brown)? Do any of you have access to them, or can you get them to me somehow? I'm not talking pakua or tai chi (they all have lyrics, and every student learns them). I want to know if I can get the movement lyrics for fei hu chu tung, lohan chien, etc. all the way through brown belt.

I know they're not, per say, vital to understanding the forms, but they often help you divide the form up for drills, etc. I found this especially helpful for Golden Leopard (in dividing up combos for restructuring them and playing with them) and Double Daggers (as it is very easy to get caught up in the spinning slashes, etc...lol).

Thanks in advance, for anyone who can help me with this. I'm gonna ask my teacher, but I'll be on vacation for a week. THought I'd ask you guys, as well, as many of you have been in this system for a decade or two (some even three or four, lol).

Later

[Shaolin Wookie]

Funny. Students (myself included) are always wondering how to apply the material, like it's something that has to be grasped out of thin air. Teachers always imply that everything is rooted in the short forms, which is pretty much true. But I also noticed about a week ago how I kept comparing the movements in lower belt forms to the blue belt techniques, yellow belt ippons, and all the chin na while helping out some lower belt classmates who were having trouble remembering their forms. I'd say 90% of all the movements in the forms have direct correlations to these elementary drills we do. Even when they're not direct, they're just small variations of the same thing. Lol. I realized how stupid I was not to see this....lol. And these same ippons, techniques, and chin na are what most students gloss over, forget, and can't perform that well (not that I'm a particular gem, either:D). Man, sometimes you just have to slap yourself on the forehead and laugh at yourself for being so blind.

Ippon blocks=opening blocks of short katas 11-12=fold/unfold circle clears at close of Jingang fu hu chien, and those in all of the 3 bird forms=technique #1 clear and arm control. Technique #2=sparring tech #6=China hand sweeps, and any backsweep in short forms (#'s 7, and 25, notably). All the same thing. All dressed just a little different. Taught for applications (techniques/ippons), form (in the sparring techs, short forms), and transition/balance (in forms). How did I not see how this was set up? L O Friggin' L. There is such an overwhelming emphasis for standing grappling, sweeping, and throwing in our lower belt forms, but all I used to see was strikes.

Anyways, my teacher said to me about two weeks ago: Bow stances are knee traps. I almost slapped my head again. I've seen the bow stance knee trap in a couple of chin na. But somehow I just never thought to apply that in general. Hahaha.....useful for staying on your feet.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I really think the lyrics for the forms could help out some students. For instance, there's a move in the double daggers called "Giant Tiger Embraces his heart" where you execute a clockwise circling block overhead (with right hand dagger) while stepping from a kneeling jade ring into a left bow stance, as the left hand performs a kind of smaller circle almost at the same time.........

I had a basic understanding of the movement (like all newbs with a knife, I just wanted to jump around in circles, slashing like a crackhead mofo), but I never really considered it much of a "complete technique/sequence in itself" until I examined the name and thought about it. I'm thinking: ducking low (bobbing in evasion), coming up with a slash to the belly or flanks with the right hand dagger, using the left arm and dagger to slash under the opponent's left arm and pushing it up/to my left so I can get behind, so that when the right hand swings back around (where it chambers under the left armpit in the form) it stabs into the stomach. The left hand is in position for a chokehold/throat slash, as I am now positioned behind the guy. And then, moving into the "Dove flips over Mountain" movement, using your weight to rip a gash across the stomach for gutting as you jump and change directions/get some distance from the opponent. (It's kind of like weapons grappling).

The "embrace" part of the lyric got me thinking of a hug, which is the motion of the arm control and positioning, and stabbing to the gut or up under the ribcage, where you will eventually stab with the right hand, trying to get at the heart.

For the first year I've had it, I was always thinking simplistically, like slashing with the right across the gut, then stabbing into the ribcage as the right hand came back around, or slashing across the chest (which causes problems with the icepick grip, ya know?)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Examining your forms this way, you realize what a sick, sadistic ******* you have to be to feel such joy in discovering ways to kill someone effectively. All I know is that technique would be bloody, and quick. And you'd get all kinds of nasty stuff on your brand new shoes.

[bodhi warrior]

Back in the day the 3 brownbelt shaolin bird katas were called "original" shaolin bird katas. My instructor told me that they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. My question is why would he need to create 3 new forms instead of using one of the 900 he already knows?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Back in the day the 3 brownbelt shaolin bird katas were called "original" shaolin bird katas. My instructor told me that they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. My question is why would he need to create 3 new forms instead of using one of the 900 he already knows?


I'll have to be sure to thank him when I see him. Those are my favorite empty-hand forms (but far from my best).

[bodhi warrior]

I personally like those forms as well. I particularly like the circle blocking and the elbow chop.:D

[Lamassu]

Back in the day the 3 brownbelt shaolin bird katas were called "original" shaolin bird katas. My instructor told me that they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. My question is why would he need to create 3 new forms instead of using one of the 900 he already knows?

Something you have to keep in mind with the whole 900 forms claim, is that they include the more recent forms that GMS has made in order to instruct newer students here in the States. GM Su Kong never had these bird forms in his cirriculum, but then again the methodology of teaching new students back then was way different. Back in the day, a new student's class would focus mostly on stance training circuit drills with kicks, punches and blocks and strength training, and for the first few years of training you would only have a couple of forms under your belt. This type of training isn't very profitable here in the United States, however, and in order to keep students training, GMS would have to make accomedations to satifsy our American desire for instant gratification, and make up and teach out these very short and simplistic forms to keep our intrest.

I won't say Fei Hu Chu Tung, is a useless form, but it's way too short to be a proper Shaolin form from the late 19th century - early 20th century. But it's still a mountain tiger form, where simplistic elements were mixed and matched and created to make a simple form that would intrigue us and keep us motivated, while still imbibing the spirit of the mountain tiger style.

I remember Master Schaefer telling me this a few years back when I earned my 1st degree Black Belt, that GMS doesn't even consider you one of his students until you get your 1st degree BB. Not because he's trying to be snotty, but simply because the forms, styles and techniques get more complex, harder and deadlier once you learn all the basics, which encompass your entire training regime from white belt to 1st degree brown. So think of all those colored belt levels you've trained for and see them for what they are: basic training.

[Ngfamilymember]

900 forms???? Surely you can't be serious!?

Thanks,
-Ngfamilymember

[Daniel09]

I feel so left out. There are tons of different schools and I haven't the capability to go to any of them.

[bodhi warrior]

Speaking of fe hu chu tung, did anyone ever figure out how the guy on fight science came across this form. I mean was he a SD student at one time?:cool:

[arinathos.valin]

Hi all...

Go away for a couple of days and look and how much you miss...

A few things to comment on from the voluminous amount of posts.

1) I'm not necessarily so concerned at how different schools in SD have different variations. I think it's natural when people transmit something as subjective as a martial arts form that one changes the form in subtle ways to suit your own strengths. I've been reviewing forms from Gerald Sharp and Luo JinHua, both of whom have a direct lineage to Jiang Rong Jiao, the creator of the Bagua form in SD. Although the moves are very similar, they both do the forms slightly differently. Likewise, I've also been looking at Ted Mancuso's version of Jiang Bagua... a student of Adam Hsu. They all have some subtle differences in stance, hand placement, and transitions between moves. However, they also have some similarities in underlying principles that I just did not see in M. Groom's demo video.

2) The video of Cheng Man Ching doing the form should indeed have similarities with what SD students do.... it's his form! SD's longest Yang style form is the Cheng distillation of the Yang 108 move form, and the lineage is indisputable. The Yang forms of SD aren't "temple" derivatives.

3) I'm not going to be so quick to dismiss the criticisms of inaccuracies by Mas and others. I think that half of the critics on this board wouldn't be here if SD was billed as a separate 'hybrid art' with a Shaolin flavor. No one rags on kempo, because it doesn't claim to be the sole lineage holder from its Chinese/Japanese roots. Likewise, no one rags on To Shin Do for its ninjitsu lineage because Stephen Hayes doesn't claim that it is the sole lineage art for Togakure Ryu Ninjitsu (whether Togakure Ryu Ninjitsu is the real deal or whether ninjitsu is an effective art is another question). If GMT does make the claim that he is the sole Shaolin Grandmaster and it is a false assertion, then it does raise the issue of his credibility.

I don't think there is any question that SD can teach people to fight, and that there are people in SD that have reached a high level of skill. If one is fully aware of the controversy regarding GMT's claims and thinks that the school offers what they are looking for, then so be it!

[Judge Pen]

Speaking of fe hu chu tung, did anyone ever figure out how the guy on fight science came across this form. I mean was he a SD student at one time?:cool:

No, but he learned from a student of winglock ng. Now how did they get our forms...?

[Judge Pen]

I don't think there is any question that SD can teach people to fight, and that there are people in SD that have reached a high level of skill. If one is fully aware of the controversy regarding GMT's claims and thinks that the school offers what they are looking for, then so be it!

Thanks. :cool:

[Mas Judt]

Care to elaborate, Judge? We've got a ways to go to set the post record....

[arinathos.valin]

BTW... had a decent amount of success tracking down the lineage of the "Classical" Bagua form from SD, but I can't seem to find where the "Animal" Bagua form came from. Anyone out there have the answer?

[bodhi warrior]

I haven't had that one, but isn't it sun lu tang's eight animal Pakua?

[tattooedmonk]

Alchemy is ridiculous in every culture it has popped up in. It's pseudoscience (science hijacked by schizophrenics). If you apply it to tai chi or something, you have to apply it to everything. Hence, you must brush the crumbs off your pants five times, even though one swipe would have sufficed to clean the mess. If you're driving your car and you make a right turn, you'd better **** well turn that wheel five times fully and make five complete circles, because if you don't, you'll throw off your delicate internal chemical balances. You don't cook chemicals in your veins, or control the functions of your liver with breathing techniques, or do irreparable damage to your kidneys by having bad coordination during your single whip movements. You ward off and push to ward off a punch and push.;)

Sure, the alchemy predated Tai Chi, but I guaran****tee that it had precisely dick to do with the structural formulation of the art. I'm sure someone very invested in the alchemical society imposed upon the art his alchemical prejudices to make it more personalized. But come on.....you show me a chemical formula that delineates how the body should move during tai chi, which prescribes motions like ward offs, etc by the various movings and interminglings of hydrogens and carbons, and maybe I'll change my mind. Does hemoglobin react differently to four ward offs as opposed to five? And during which part of the fifth ward off does the hemoglobin begin to realize that something significant has happened?:D

Mathematics has nothing to do with the order (?....ever hear of entropy?:D) of the universe. The universe works a certain way, but often doesn't work that way upon further analysis (I've always preferred Wheeler's description of a "higgledy-piggeldy" universe). You can describe it with mathematics (always fractionally imprecise--take Newton's gravitational principles and Einstein's observations of MErcury). You can describe ti with language. But mathematics is a languange man uses to describe numeric things---all of which are notions exclusive to man. Pythagoras was a wizard with numbers. But he was also a fool who believed numbers had a mystical, divine significance. His findings actually contradict TAoist numerology. So how does one prove which is correct? Pythagoras or Taoist numerology? Can you prove these things? Of course not? So how do you prove which is correct, when you have two unprovable, contradictory things?

Considering the applicablity of Pythagoras's mathematical findings, I'm sorry to inform you that he's far more relevant to today's society than any Taoist sect's numerological nonsense. Hell, I even like his philosophy better.

But I still regard him with mild amusement at his expense.Well it appears that your understanding in this area is extremely limited and biased. I suggest you have a talk with your instructor and other masters in these arts.

We are not talking about mysticism and make believe. We are talking about real science.

You will find that western medicine/ science supports the findings the Chinese made thousands of years ago.

[humbleman]

I suppose every style has its' detractors. There is a style of karate in Erie PA called Goshin Jutsu, on the karate pages there is a guy who is so obsessed with trashing the styles founder that he uses at least 5 different names on the forums trying to mislead people about Goshin Jutsu. In doing so he has, in my opinion, made himself the styles greatest proponent. After reading his hateful posts, it has convinced me to take up Goshin as my new style. I have had the misfortune to meet this man in person. He is by nature a bully and coward. And if he ever cares to try poking at my leg with a stick again, I will show him an interesting place to store it. Thanks for the inspiration, Ken. I will think of you in my training- every time I throw a punch or kick. Love, TIM

[Ngfamilymember]

No, but he learned from a student of winglock ng. Now how did they get our forms...?

Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.

Still, 900 forms. Thats a little stupid in my opinion. Surely that isn't completely accurate.

[tattooedmonk]

Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.

Still, 900 forms. Thats a little stupid in my opinion. Surely that isn't completely accurate.900 forms also includes; sparring techniques 1-20 , Chin Na 1-30 and short forms 1-30, specific sets like Yi Jin Jing , Hua Tou's 5 Animal Frolics, etc. are also considered forms. As it has also been stated/explained that Master Sin created forms as well. There are also training forms that focus on specific techniques of a system.

[Black Jack II]

I am suprised Sin The has not had his group make instructional videos yet, with the market as it is today, and with people wanting the great mysteries of the east, I bet he would have a few buyers, bunk material or not.

[Judge Pen]

Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.

I'm not playing an old tune. I e-mailed Alex Huynh and he told me that's where he learned those particular forms that he displayed in "fight science." That isn't a tune, that was a fact. I do wonder why someone in the NG lineage would be teaching forms that are clearly identifiable as SD.

For the record, the whole Ng "rivalry" pre-dated me. I really didn't know anything about it until these forums. I actually learned a couple of Ng forms from a friend a long time ago, but didn't know anything more about them. I have no axe to grind with the Ngs.

I'll post a copy of the e-mail responses if anyone's interested in Alex Huynh's response....

[bodhi warrior]

I wouldn't mind seeing a post of that e-mail. And as far as the statement Sin the' created forms, which ones did he create and which ones are from I chang ming?

[Judge Pen]

I wouldn't mind seeing a post of that e-mail. And as far as the statement Sin the' created forms, which ones did he create and which ones are from I chang ming?

I'll post those e-mails, unedited, later today.

As for made up forms, I wouldn't know... I hadn't heard that until TTM's posts.

[Lamassu]

As for made up forms, I wouldn't know... I hadn't heard that until TTM's posts.

As I understand it, pretty much most of the forms taught from white belt to 1st brown were made by GM The to adapt Shaolin Do for its American students.

[Baqualin]

Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.

Sad...were all pretty happy...besides just like rock n roll will never die, neither will SD:cool:


Still, 900 forms. Thats a little stupid in my opinion. Surely that isn't completely accurate.

You know what they say about opinions. It's alot more accurate than you know....almost half have been taught out to date.:)

[Judge Pen]

Here are the e-mails I referenced. The only thing that I edited involved personal contact information. The body of the e-mails are unaltered:

***

On 10/9/06, [Judge Pen] wrote:

Alex,

In the "Fight Science" show you demonstrated moves in a form that are, move for move, identical to forms that I know including a forms known to me as "LoHan Chien" and "Fei Hu" I'm curious to know where you learned these sequences....Did you train with anyone that studied these forms? Did you learn them from your shaolin instructor?

I appreciate in advance your cooperation and courtesy in my questions. I look forward to hearing back from you.

[Judge Pen]

On 10/9/06, Alex Huynh wrote:


Mr. [Pen],

Yes indeed, that was Lohan Chien and Fei Fu Chu Tong (I'm afraid I just butchered the spelling). I studied ShaoLin Kungfu under Instructor David White and Grandmaster John Winglock Ng. That's where I got my official start in the Chinese martial arts. Wushu came much later (I've done traditional for over 15 years, Wushu for maybe 4 years), contrary to popular belief.

I'm very glad you got to see the program and I hope you enjoyed it. There are many things that were cut from the show due to time restraints, but I did my best to represent the Chinese arts. Thank you for watching to show, stay tuned for more!

Sincerely,
Alex Huynh

***

So there you go; now you all know as much as I do about these forms and the SD Ng connection to them.

[bodhi warrior]

I have also wondered about the five animals form that has been taught to us. It is exactly like the one in Doc fai wong's shaolin 5 animal book and video. It was mentioned that EM leonard learned this form around 1990 and that was when the book was published.:cool:

[Judge Pen]

I have also wondered about the five animals form that has been taught to us. It is exactly like the one in Doc fai wong's shaolin 5 animal book and video. It was mentioned that EM leonard learned this form around 1990 and that was when the book was published.:cool:

When was this mentioned? By whom?

You are correct, the form is 85 to 90% the same as DFW's form. My understanding of the lineage of DFW's five animal form is that Lau Bun's wife taught this form. She learned it from her father and claimed it was shaolin in origin. Given that history, its quite possible that other lineage have the same form taught through their line. To be fair its also possible that it was picked up somewhere along the way (like the book).

[sean_stonehart]

When was this mentioned? By whom?

You are correct, the form is 85 to 90% the same as DFW's form. My understanding of the lineage of DFW's five animal form is that Lau Bun's wife taught this form. She learned it from her father and claimed it was shaolin in origin. Given that history, its quite possible that other lineage have the same form taught through their line. To be fair its also possible that it was picked up somewhere along the way (like the book).

Eh... slight correction... Lau Bun's teacher Yuen Hai's wife taught LB the Ng Ying set... not Lau Bun's wife. ;)

I watched a couple of other people from SD play that set... some play it & it's totally unrecognizable. Must be the air quality that changed it. I watched somebody else just the other week play it in a parking lot after we'd been putt putt golfing & it's pretty freaking close to the way it should be played... all things given.

[sean_stonehart]

I have also wondered about the five animals form that has been taught to us. It is exactly like the one in Doc fai wong's shaolin 5 animal book and video. It was mentioned that EM leonard learned this form around 1990 and that was when the book was published.:cool:

From Amazon's website on the book... June 1987 is the publish date...

http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Five-Animals-Doc-Fai-Wong/dp/0865680809/ref=sr_1_4/102-1410448-1172126?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186598917&sr=8-4

[bodhi warrior]

It was in a class I attended long ago. EM leonard was teaching the class and made mention of when he got it from GMS. It is possible someone other than Doc fai wong would have this form, unless he was the one who made it up.:rolleyes:

[sean_stonehart]

It was in a class I attended long ago. EM leonard was teaching the class and made mention of when he got it from GMS. It is possible someone other than Doc fai wong would have this form, unless he was the one who made it up.:rolleyes:

The only people who would have this form come from the Hung Sing school of San Francisco started by Lau Bun. It's just that simple. Any students of Lau Bun's who spent any measurable training time with him would've/should've learned it. Lau Bun brought the set with him to America when he immigrated over in the 1920's.

There are other forms with the 5 Animal name, but this set is unique to the Hung Sing school & lineage of Lau Bun.

[bodhi warrior]

My choy li fut history is very limited, so did lau ban create the form or was he taught it by someone else. Or did he modify it? I'm just curious. I know Chan Heung(sp?) learned numerous forms and even created some to suit his students. Just wondering if Lau Ban did the same?

[sean_stonehart]

My choy li fut history is very limited, so did lau ban create the form or was he taught it by someone else. Or did he modify it? I'm just curious. I know Chan Heung(sp?) learned numerous forms and even created some to suit his students. Just wondering if Lau Ban did the same?

Story goes that Lau Bun was taught this form by his teacher's (Yuen Hai) wife. He may or may not have modified it. No way of knowing. But when compared to other sets named 5 Animals they're different from each other, except for SD's version taught at 4th to 5th black which is way to close to the 5 Animal taught by Lau Bun & published in a book by GM Doc Fai Wong.

[Judge Pen]

Eh... slight correction... Lau Bun's teacher Yuen Hai's wife taught LB the Ng Ying set... not Lau Bun's wife. ;)

I watched a couple of other people from SD play that set... some play it & it's totally unrecognizable. Must be the air quality that changed it. I watched somebody else just the other week play it in a parking lot after we'd been putt putt golfing & it's pretty freaking close to the way it should be played... all things given.

Thanks for the correction.... I thought this topic might bring you out of the woodwork ;)

Question then, do we know if the set was modified by Lau Bun after being taught the set from his teacher's wife? If not, then why couldn't there be similar 5 animal sets out there from a divergent lineage? I'm not advocating that this is how SD got this set mind you, (I don't really know) but it seems that other versions could possibly exist given the lineage as we have discussed.

[sean_stonehart]

Thanks for the correction.... I thought this topic might bring you out of the woodwork ;)

:eek: Yeah work has new restrictions on Net usage... but I work form home on Wed & Fri so I have my work laptop working & my desktop for other stuff... ;)




Question then, do we know if the set was modified by Lau Bun after being taught the set from his teacher's wife?

To my knowledge I can't say if it was or wasn't. But given that Yuen Hai's wife was from Fukien & this set doesn't (as it is taught now so presumably once it got to the US) exhibit the common Fukienese indicators (range, power generation, stance work) it's logical to assume to a degree that Lau Bun CLF-ized it to fit his teachings from Yuen Hai.



If not, then why couldn't there be similar 5 animal sets out there from a divergent lineage?

A possibility but I gotta say remote at best. There's not been any mention of Yuen Hai's teachings outside of Lau Bun in Toisan & definately no mentioning of his wife anywhere else.



I'm not advocating that this is how SD got this set mind you, (I don't really know) but it seems that other versions could possibly exist given the lineage as we have discussed.

Of course & no worries. They could indeed exist however the chances of it are slim since there's only been one school/line to teach it in the US from the 1920's to the 1980's which was Lau Bun's Hung Sing & its students, GM DFW included. Then sometime in the 80's or 90's, SD starts teaching it, possibly as late as the early 90's.

[Leto]

A piece of Lau Bun lineage Hung Sing CLF 5 animal form
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7668357842174438491&q=hung+sing+clf&total=29&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

another hung sing clf 5 animal form section
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8600206446613609471&q=choy+li+fut+five+animals&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

another one, maybe not hung sing
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1018410307709047502&q=choy+li+fut+wu+xing&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

is this the one that is supposed to be the same as SD 5 animal form? It doesn't look anything like the one I learned from Soards. If this form is the basis, it has been wildly reinterpreted, deconstructed and put back together again into something completely unrecognizeable. Maybe that's the point...but then, if there is nothing left recognizeable of the "original" form, is it really the same form? I remember GM The was teaching it in seminars in the west around the time when I started, and probably before that. The people who saw it from him said it was pretty much the same as what the Soards were teaching in the following years, with a couple minor differences. If the above videos represent Lau Bun's Five animal form, then the one GM The teaches is something different.

I'll have to take a look at that book, and see if it's the same. Maybe the pictures will reveal where the SD form came from (reviews of the book say that it doesn't explain any transitions between the moves, or show anything from different angles...if someone tried to learn from that book, there's no way they could get it right without seeing someone perform it)

[Judge Pen]

The first example is the same form. About 1/2 into the form: Green Dragon enters the ocean (posture 52), Green Dragon faces the sun (#53) White crane double strike out (#54), etc. To my understanding, Hung Sing CLF typically plays this set slow, like tai chi, and my understanding with certain internal principles at play. If you compare Lau Bun's version to SD's it is, as I've said 80 to 85% the same. In fact the structure and general postures are the same, but the types of strikes with the posture are a little different.

I've seen some of the Soard's version of this form, and it is played a bit differently then the way I learned it from Elder Master Mullins.

[Leto]

I can see the green dragon, the white crane double strike and triple strikes are very different though. I'll take your word for it, since this is only a tiny bit of the form. I wonder how the snake postures are performed, white snake leaps over the twig, golden snake whips its tail, white snake comes out of the hole. Those are the postures which I'm always "fidgety" about, in terms of what to emphasize.

Let me ask a technical question: the way you learned it, what is the difference in arm/hand movement between golden snake whips its tail and white crane strikes wings or strikes out three times? Both seem to be sort of hooking/circling motions that would connect with ridge hand. I waft back and forth on the emphasis of the golden snake, whether it should be focusing on the finger tips or the ridge hand.

[sean_stonehart]

A piece of Lau Bun lineage Hung Sing CLF 5 animal form
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7668357842174438491&q=hung+sing+clf&total=29&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


That one is Lau Buns Ng Ying Kuen played by Jew Leong, the student who took over after Lau Bun died.



another hung sing clf 5 animal form section
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8600206446613609471&q=choy+li+fut+five+animals&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

another one, maybe not hung sing
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1018410307709047502&q=choy+li+fut+wu+xing&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


These two vids are the same form, played by different people with immense distance in skill levels... but Hung Sing, just not the same Hung Sing (long story there)




is this the one that is supposed to be the same as SD 5 animal form?


Nope the first one only



It doesn't look anything like the one I learned from Soards.


You are not incorrect. I've watched the video on the Soard's site & I had to work to figure out what the guy was doing. It's not even in the ball park close.


If this form is the basis, it has been wildly reinterpreted, deconstructed and put back together again into something completely unrecognizeable.


BINGO!!!!!!!!



Maybe that's the point...but then, if there is nothing left recognizeable of the "original" form, is it really the same form?


Two for two!!! It's not the same... not even close, yet acknowledgement is denied on it's foundations.



If the above videos represent Lau Bun's Five animal form, then the one GM The teaches is something different.

The first video is Lau Bun's 5 Animals, which was taught in his Hung Sing School in San Fran from the mid 1930's when he opened until 1967 when he died and is still taught in the Hung Sing school there now as well as GM DFW's school and others teaching in the Bay Area that were his students.



I'll have to take a look at that book, and see if it's the same.


It is.



Maybe the pictures will reveal where the SD form came from (reviews of the book say that it doesn't explain any transitions between the moves, or show anything from different angles...if someone tried to learn from that book, there's no way they could get it right without seeing someone perform it)

Dude... you're possibly on to something there. Don't let it get out. They may disown you or claim you're a trouble maker or the like. You may even have to relocate to Ga or Tn to stay in SD with heretical speak such as that!!

Betcha a lot of other stuff would look the same too... :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[JCAT]

He Is The Youngest Grand Master In 1500 Years Of Shaolin History. Is The Only Person To Be Honored With Two, Yes I Said (2) Monuments At The Shaolin Temples In China. Was Wondering How Come He Is Never In Magazine, And Who Do I Need To Contact To See If They Will Feature Him In The Kung Fu/ Tai Chi Magazine.

[cjurakpt]

why waste posts by starting a new thread when the "Is SD for real" one is still about 100 shy of the big 500 goal? be reasonable man!!!

oh, BTW, try calling IKF - they just published an article by Peter Ragnar, so at this point they are bound to let anyone in...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782

:rolleyes:

[SaintSage]

May your martial journey be fruitful, and here's a flame-shield. You're going to need it.

[Leto]

I'm not in the system anymore, I just like to know where some of the forms came from, and the right way to "play" them. Even if I was in the system, I wouldn't try to stir anything up, just continue doing my own thing. I'd nod politely when folks talk about "temple style" and "classical shaolin" whatever, and just train. GM The and his oldest students are the only ones who really know the truth, and they're sticking to their guns about "authentic shaolin". I don't care either way.

[Ming Yue]

I suggest whomever you contact, you continue to write in title case. It's extremely impressive.

[sean_stonehart]

Gotcha...

This is gonna draw fire but I'm putting it out there....

On that one set, the Lau Bun Hung Sing version is the only correct way to play that particular piece of material. Not saying it can't be fast or mixed or however, but the only correct way is the Hung Sing way. Taught any other way is not the way it's intended and designed. Also trust me when I say if it wasn't learned from from a Lau Bun student or lineaged student, it's not correct in nature/form/intent. The motions may be learned & copied & even closely so, but there's pieces that can't be learned without somebody who received the correct transmission.

The book is intentionally missing pieces & no transitions are shown for precise reasons. GM DFW isn't the only person out there doing that as well in print or video format.

[Mas Judt]

Shows what you know. The SD version is different because it is the ORIGINAL SHAOLIN COMBAT VERSION! Everything else is but a pale shadow of the sun source of martial arts.

[sean_stonehart]

Shows what you know. The SD version is different because it is the ORIGINAL SHAOLIN COMBAT VERSION! Everything else is but a pale shadow of the sun source of martial arts.

****it... you're right... I quit for my own good. :eek:

[lkfmdc]

Did you know that I buy anything the man says? Like some horse crap about being the "Youngest Grand Master In 1500 Years Of Shaolin History"?



is the kewl aid good?




Did you know he's SO insecure he BOUTH Two, Yes I Said (2) Monuments At The Shaolin Temples In China? ****, who is that insecure? No one has ever done that!



amazine that people are still impressed with the "buy one, get one free" stone monument crap :rolleyes:




Was Wondering How Come He Is Never In Magazine



I hear "pet tails" is doing a story on the grandmaster.....

[SaintSage]

I hear "pet tails" is doing a story on the grandmaster.....

It's true. His cat is the only cat to recieve the title of Grand Master from the Shaolin Temple.

[SanHeChuan]

It's true. His cat is the only cat to recieve the title of Grand Master from the Shaolin Temple.

As a shaolin do black belt. LOL. :D

[JCAT]

Nice to know that your grandmasters have taught the forms to the best of their ablitiy to you. Whether it be in Karate,Judo, and so forth, its ashame you all missed the class on respect for other various art forms. But, you was probably at home watching Walker Texas Ranger.

[lkfmdc]

Nice to know that your grandmasters have taught the forms to the best of their ablitiy to you. Whether it be in Karate,Judo, and so forth, its ashame you all missed the class on respect for other various art forms. But, you was probably at home watching Walker Texas Ranger.

we have plenty of respect for real masters, but guys who claim jo-jo the dog faced boy as their master, prance around in Karate gi, teach utter crap and make up history on the fly get teh royal treatment here

you don't like it? LEAVE.....

have a pleasant day, don't let the door hit you in your crack

[SaintSage]

we have plenty of respect for real masters, but guys who claim jo-jo the dog faced boy as their master, prance around in Karate gi, teach utter crap and make up history on the fly get teh royal treatment here

you don't like it? LEAVE.....

have a pleasant day, don't let the door hit you in your crack

He's a little rough around the edges, but he's like an onion; he has layers. You learn to love him! Well, I did at least.

[lkfmdc]

here's a little quiz for you

[bodhi warrior]

I've often wondered if GMS didn't become a victim of his own advertisment of 900 forms. I think most of the stuff up through 4th or 5th black could have been learned from Master IE, but after realizing his students were going to push him to learn more and more forms he started to get them from other sources ie. books, videos, and maybe visiting other masters. Personally I like much of the stuff up through 2nd and 3rd black. But if you look at his brothers website he doesn't boast about knowing 900 forms and he at least list other teachers that he studied from. I mean, depending on how you count, I only get to about 200 up through 5th black. But really, their just forms anyway. I pick what I want to concentrate on and drill them. Do the conditioning(weight vest, strength excersises, bag work, sparring), and drill the forms over and over that you like till they become 2nd nature, and they will work. I've seen some terrible versions of ching kong fu hu chien on the internet but that doesn't make the form bad, just the training of the teacher. But that's another can of worms.:)

[xcakid]

He Is The Youngest Grand Master In 1500 Years Of Shaolin History.


Wait, Shaolin has Grandmasters??? I thought they only had Disciples, Shi's and Abbotts??? Man, you learn something new each day.

Oh an incidently, Shi Yan Feng is only like 22 or 23yo.


Is The Only Person To Be Honored With Two, Yes I Said (2) Monuments At The Shaolin Temples In China. Was Wondering How Come He Is Never In Magazine, And Who Do I Need To Contact To See If They Will Feature Him In The Kung Fu/ Tai Chi Magazine.

A GM from a system I was affiliated with before has 3 monuments erected for him at Shaolin Temple. And is in every issue to IKF magazine hawking copies of manuscripts he got from Shaolin temple.

[David Jamieson]

He Is The Youngest Grand Master In 1500 Years Of Shaolin History. Is The Only Person To Be Honored With Two, Yes I Said (2) Monuments At The Shaolin Temples In China. Was Wondering How Come He Is Never In Magazine, And Who Do I Need To Contact To See If They Will Feature Him In The Kung Fu/ Tai Chi Magazine.

He paid for the stones to be erected. Virtually anyone can do this. You yourself could have a stele raised at the temple for the correct fee.

His claims to connection directly to Shaolin are spurious at best.

He is a kempo karate dude with a fixation on the mystical shaolin and not really the reality.

just stand back and look at it for what it is. There's the shaolin of that. :)

[DPL]

For the love of God is it really not possible to contain this to one monstrous thread that's already longer than War and Peace? :(

[David Jamieson]

For the love of God is it really not possible to contain this to one monstrous thread that's already longer than War and Peace? :(


I don't know, War and peace is longer I think. I'm trying to drag myself through it right now. It's not and easy read. Too descriptive...right down to the stink of the aristocracy. lol

[DPL]

JCAT,
Go here: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782

Read. Read some more. Keep reading.

Come back when you're done, in a month or so. Lots of opinions on Shaolin-Do, none of which need to be rehashed yet again.

[cjurakpt]

He Is The Youngest Grand Master In 1500 Years Of Shaolin History. Is The Only Person To Be Honored With Two, Yes I Said (2) Monuments At The Shaolin Temples In China. Was Wondering How Come He Is Never In Magazine, And Who Do I Need To Contact To See If They Will Feature Him In The Kung Fu/ Tai Chi Magazine.
either
1) the trolls desperately need to get some new material
2) his landlord needs to check the ventilation in his apartment and make sure there are no gas leaks
3) Sin The IS the real deal and reality as we know it has just ceased to function along the lines of the Laws of Physics


Nice to know that your grandmasters have taught the forms to the best of their ablitiy to you. Whether it be in Karate,Judo, and so forth, its ashame you all missed the class on respect for other various art forms. But, you was probably at home watching Walker Texas Ranger.
I was home flossing my cat that night...


For the love of God is it really not possible to contain this to one monstrous thread that's already longer than War and Peace? :(
no; it's like a virus that has cross-mutated and is able to jump from the original host thread to infect other ones; and I'd say the original reads more like Finnegan's Wake than W&P...

[gwa sow]

d@mn, guess i should've taken the red pill:D. and i like the shaolin 'doh quiz

[Baqualin]

I've often wondered if GMS didn't become a victim of his own advertisment of 900 forms. I think most of the stuff up through 4th or 5th black could have been learned from Master IE, but after realizing his students were going to push him to learn more and more forms he started to get them from other sources ie. books, videos, and maybe visiting other masters. Personally I like much of the stuff up through 2nd and 3rd black. But if you look at his brothers website he doesn't boast about knowing 900 forms and he at least list other teachers that he studied from. I mean, depending on how you count, I only get to about 200 up through 5th black. But really, their just forms anyway. I pick what I want to concentrate on and drill them. Do the conditioning(weight vest, strength excersises, bag work, sparring), and drill the forms over and over that you like till they become 2nd nature, and they will work. I've seen some terrible versions of ching kong fu hu chien on the internet but that doesn't make the form bad, just the training of the teacher. But that's another can of worms.:)


I was there the very first time he taught ( 5 animals) & put it on film (around 1990 right before he moved to Ca.)....(for those who have a copy, thats me knocking on the door....EML wanted to kill me...he didn't know who it was) I don't remember the story where it came from....but I do know that during that time period he brought in a few forms from his colleages in Indonesia....24 Tai Chi, Tai Chi fan etc........this was all before 92 when he received GMIe's notes....GMS & DFW always butted heads so I doubt it came from his book...plus all of us were well aware of DFW's books & vid's. From 92 to the present and beyond, all new material is coming directly from GMIe's notes (which are in riddles) that he left for GMS......he has no need to look elsewhere, there was enough in that suitcase to last a lifetime....this I've seen. I'm not saying he hasn't brought in forms from sources besides GMIe...he has...so what.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=bodhi warrior;785542] But if you look at his brothers website he doesn't boast about knowing 900 forms and he at least list other teachers that he studied from.

GMS was GMIe's private student.....he really didn't study under the other masters....M. Hiang didn't inherit GMIe's notes

I mean, depending on how you count, I only get to about 200 up through 5th black.

As I've said before almost half have already been taught out to upper level masters....the're not on the rank advancement list

[bodhi warrior]

I hadn't heard about the DFW and GMS issues, can you elaborate?

[Baqualin]

I hadn't heard about the DFW and GMS issues, can you elaborate?

Nothing serious...just a difference in history issues....in which GMS turned out to be right, years later. I have nothing but respect for DFW & what he's done for CMA...I'll pm you the details.
BQ

[sean_stonehart]

Ah go ahead & share with everybody...

[bodhi warrior]

I have a question about the scripts in the choy li fut system. Visited Doc fai wongs site and it shows the scripts for the forms they have. What is the exact purpose of these? Are they for the masters to learn from or refer back to?

[Mas Judt]

I love how everything ends up with some mysterious event where 'Grandmaster Sin' is always right. I'd love to hear this crock of bull. Even better, let's ask Doc Fai Wong.

[sean_stonehart]

I have a question about the scripts in the choy li fut system. Visited Doc fai wongs site and it shows the scripts for the forms they have. What is the exact purpose of these? Are they for the masters to learn from or refer back to?

For reference. Like anything else, it's almost impossible to learn from a book or other text without knowing first what the topic is & at minimum have exposure to it previous.

[bodhi warrior]

Thanks. I hear alot of people say GMS is getting stuff from his notes he got from Ie. If he has already mastered them, why wouldn't he make his own notes instead of trying to decipher Master Ie riddles?

[Baqualin]

Thanks. I hear alot of people say GMS is getting stuff from his notes he got from Ie. If he has already mastered them, why wouldn't he make his own notes instead of trying to decipher Master Ie riddles?

For reference as sean said....he does make his own notes, those are the copies we get. I make no claims on what he has mastered, but I guarantee he's mastered more than any of us sitting here typing on this forum.
BQ

[sean_stonehart]

But mastered what??

Forms taken from other systems that he's passed off & people bought as "Shaolin" originals from the temples and that the SD version is the original?

Forms he created on his own specifically for SD?

If #2, then bully for him. That's what it oughtta be & said as much.

If #1, then you see why there's so much animus about it.

Here's some examples of what I'm talking about. We've done the Ng Ying set to pieces & there's not been a straight answer so moving on. Same with the Taiji, Bagua & Xingyi.

Tiger Crane (Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mF1VqgVSKY&feature=PlayList&p=BE750723B584EA54&index=9

Pan Lung Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u47BQxoW6tI

Hua Fist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAH2YytlWf8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67acdZcvnHA&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW7tUXPO7yM&mode=related&search=



Now for the SD Versions,

http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28

Videos #2, #3 & #4 in order

[Baqualin]

But mastered what??

Forms taken from other systems that he's passed off & people bought as "Shaolin" originals from the temples and that the SD version is the original?

Forms he created on his own specifically for SD?

If #2, then bully for him. That's what it oughtta be & said as much.

If #1, then you see why there's so much animus about it.

Here's some examples of what I'm talking about. We've done the Ng Ying set to pieces & there's not been a straight answer so moving on. Same with the Taiji, Bagua & Xingyi.

Tiger Crane (Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mF1VqgVSKY&feature=PlayList&p=BE750723B584EA54&index=9

Pan Lung Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u47BQxoW6tI

Hua Fist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAH2YytlWf8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67acdZcvnHA&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW7tUXPO7yM&mode=related&search=



Now for the SD Versions,

http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28

Videos #2, #3 & #4 in order

I will not comment on the videos your using as comparison...there not from my school and thats also been beat to death...and as far as the internal forms (since I'm internal only now this is where most of my research is)...GMS has always given credit to the originators of the forms and even the external froms he always credited the originators ...what I remember, he never said they originated in the temple, but came through the temple in the different areas of china...he even researches himself when he goes over there to verify what GMIe told him.

[sean_stonehart]

Ok then how did ...


Yang Taiji
Jiang Rong Qiao Bagua
Xingyi
Sun Lu Tang Eight Animal Bagua
Chen Taiji
Taiji 24


come from any temple??

BTW... there's still no credit given to Jiang Rong Qiao for the SD "Classical" Bagua or Sun Lu Tang for the Eight Animal.

[bodhi warrior]

I learned the tang lang chien form and the guy in that video really sucks.:eek: If he was a brown belt I might understand, but he was a 3rd. black. It seemed like all their forms move the same, really dance like, with no power or fluidity.
I personally think much of the attacks on sin the's character would be silenced if he would produce some actual pictures, not paintings, of him training in indonesia with GM IE. At least we would know he learned from someone.

[Mas Judt]

But many of the things that are obvious SD signatures - the weird arm only snappy arm thing, the lack of any understanding of the structure - these are things you see in the few clips of Sin The' on the net.

Going back to Sean's point, there is a big veracity question here, one that has not really been answered.

[Baqualin]

Ok then how did ...


Yang Taiji
Jiang Rong Qiao Bagua
Xingyi
Sun Lu Tang Eight Animal Bagua
Chen Taiji
Taiji 24


come from any temple??

I didn't say come from, I said came through...even the Chen people claim roots in the temple & 24 is a universal form developed in china and was never claimed any different....even Marshall Ho called one of his Tai Chi forms a Temple form

BTW... there's still no credit given to Jiang Rong Qiao for the SD "Classical" Bagua or Sun Lu Tang for the Eight Animal.

Your saying that, not me...besides our 8 animal isn't Sun Lu Tangs form...I haven't found that one yet, as well as our Snake & Dragon Pakua

Are you saying they don't practice Hsing I & Tai Chi in the Shaolin Temple:confused:

By the way thats a very short list of our internal forms:)

[Baqualin]

I learned the tang lang chien form and the guy in that video really sucks.:eek: If he was a brown belt I might understand, but he was a 3rd. black. It seemed like all their forms move the same, really dance like, with no power or fluidity.
I personally think much of the attacks on sin the's character would be silenced if he would produce some actual pictures, not paintings, of him training in indonesia with GM IE. At least we would know he learned from someone.

What some people refuse to realize is GMS is not the new kid on the block...he has been teaching here since the 60's...we have been to Indonesia & seen where he trained, met some of his colleagues...and saw how they were honored by his presence.....once again this has also been beat to death. BW it wouldn't matter anyway....anyone who is in the public eye like GMS will be attacked...that's part of the terr.
BQ

[kwaichang]

When I spoke with GMT a while back he said the system has its roots in the temple and many systems have passed through the temple and can be traced to them. He gave specific of chen tai chi and Yang as well as Pa Kua. If GMT or anyone from SD did a form perfectly you guys would still attack it. also No Power in SD ???? hahahahahahahahaha. KC

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=kwaichang;785809]When I spoke with GMT a while back he said the system has its roots in the temple and many systems have passed through the temple and can be traced to them. He gave specific of chen tai chi and Yang as well as Pa Kua. If GMT or anyone from SD did a form perfectly you guys would still attack it. also No Power in SD ???? hahahahahahahahaha. KC[/QUOT

Good Morning KC:D:D:D:D:cool::cool::cool:

[bodhi warrior]

But the Yang form we practice couldn't have come through a temple, it was created very recently by Zheng man cheng. The classical Pakua we learned also couldn't have come through the temple either as it was created by Jiang rong qiao. It is possible though that the forms were picked up and practiced at the school in Indonesia. There is a book available on Snake Pakua available at Plumpub.com that I would be very interested if it is our Snake Pakua. Its in chinese though but has pics. Erle Montague also has a snake Pakua. These are the only two places I've located that has Snake Pakua. If anyone who knows our Snake Pakua could compare and give feedback it would be appreciated.

[sean_stonehart]

Your saying that, not me...besides our 8 animal isn't Sun Lu Tangs form...I haven't found that one yet, as well as our Snake & Dragon Pakua

Are you saying they don't practice Hsing I & Tai Chi in the Shaolin Temple:confused:

By the way thats a very short list of our internal forms:)

Oh,,, a different 8 Animal that uses the same ones as SLT.

Xingyi... never heard of it there & didn't see it there when I was there in 01 with SD. Liu He Xinyi yes, but that's different.

Taiji at the Temple?? Dunno but I know Chen Zhen li has taught it at the schools in the area that provide "monks" for shows. Besides they have Jingang Quan that takes the place of taiji.

Actually it's not a short list... it's the crux.


Please also tell me how the list above came "through" the Shaolin Temple(s) ... I'd like to know how Yang Taiji, Taiji 24 (which is PRC wushu), Bagua, Xingyi, etc... are Shaolin arts or came through it.

[Mas Judt]

I think Sin The' will say almost anything.... Both Yang & Chen have very good records, I don't recall either system being mentioned as 'taught at Shaolin' - Yang in particular is a new system, they would have had to move pretty quick before the temple was burned.

[The Willow Sword]

gwa sow? I think you mean the BLUE PILL? Most take the Blue pill without even realizing it. especially the SD'ers:rolleyes:

Peace,TWS

[Litikuai]

As a practioner I have seen much and know Shaolin do to be real Shaolin it is these modern things you speak of that you compare Shaolin do to that is inaccurate to do. Peace to you all LTK

[Shaolinlueb]

i heard through the grapevine the monks actually fell asleep and were laughing at parts of Sin the's shaolin do presentation at the temple.

[brucereiter]

The classical Pakua we learned also couldn't have come through the temple either as it was created by Jiang rong qiao.

look up the translations of jiangs rong qiao's books he authored around 1930 +- a bit.
the classical pakua one is great stuff for any sd student

in the preface of one of his hsing i books he speaks about going to the nanjing goshu institute, as well as several other place in china when he learned and taught martial arts. one of the interesting places jiang rong qiao claims to have gone was the shaolin temple. this was before 1930 since that is when the preface letter was dated.

if anyone knows more about this please add to the conversation.

is jiang lying about going to shaolin temple?

could jiang have taught anyone "original" form while he was at the "shaolin temple"?

how do you know what he may or may not have done and who he may or may not have taught.

jiangs "original" form is/was very popular i think a lot of people have learned it and practice it.



It is possible though that the forms were picked up and practiced at the school in Indonesia.

yes it is. and i think that may have been how some of our material came to the system. it would be nice to confirm though ...

best,

bruce

[Judge Pen]

Sean, I could kick you for using that video set for examples when I know you've seen better form exampes of SD with your own eyes, but, then again, they are the only ones putting themselves out there, so there you go. :D

[Judge Pen]

Gene, please merge this with the "Is SD for Real Thread." We can contain all comments of SD there.

[Judge Pen]

i heard through the grapevine the monks actually fell asleep and were laughing at parts of Sin the's shaolin do presentation at the temple.

Yeah, I heard that. I also heard that many of the older people were impressed that we were doing kung fu the "old way". Since neither of us were there, I put no stock in either comments.

[sean_stonehart]

Sean, I could kick you for using that video set for examples when I know you've seen better form exampes of SD with your own eyes, but, then again, they are the only ones putting themselves out there, so there you go. :D


Oh I know... fire away :D , but that's not what I was using them for as indicative performances, but as representative of the topic at hand.

Besides... you kick about as well as I do... I'll move my ankles before you get there. :P

[sean_stonehart]

look up the translations of jiangs rong qiao's books he authored around 1930 +- a bit.
the classical pakua one is great stuff for any sd student

in the preface of one of his hsing i books he speaks about going to the nanjing goshu institute, as well as several other place in china when he learned and taught martial arts. one of the interesting places jiang rong qiao claims to have gone was the shaolin temple. this was before 1930 since that is when the preface letter was dated.

if anyone knows more about this please add to the conversation.

is jiang lying about going to shaolin temple?

could jiang have taught anyone "original" form while he was at the "shaolin temple"?

how do you know what he may or may not have done and who he may or may not have taught.

jiangs "original" form is/was very popular i think a lot of people have learned it and practice it.



yes it is. and i think that may have been how some of our material came to the system. it would be nice to confirm though ...

best,

bruce

Sure Jiang could've gone to Shaolin pre-1930, but considering the legends say Ie had already learned/was learning from Su Kong in the mountains of Fukien & Su Kong died in 1928 (year Shaolin was destroyed) ... doesn't it make you go "huh" just a little????

[brucereiter]

Sure Jiang could've gone to Shaolin pre-1930, but considering the legends say Ie had already learned/was learning from Su Kong in the mountains of Fukien & Su Kong died in 1928 (year Shaolin was destroyed) ... doesn't it make you go "huh" just a little????

please do not confuse what i said. i do not know from who, how or when "original" pakua was introduced to our system.

i was responding to someone saying something was impossible with an example of how it could be possible.

sure there are plenty of things that make me go "huh" ...

i for the most part will only "argue" about the content/application of the system (internal side) and not about the history and claims i hear from all sides.

best,

bruce

[sean_stonehart]

please do not confuse what i said. i do not know from who, how or when "original" pakua was introduced to our system.

No confusion. I wasn't implying or meaning to imply you'd said that.



i was responding to someone saying something was impossible with an example of how it could be possible.

Possible doesn't always include probable



sure there are plenty of things that make me go "huh" ...

Glad to see I'm not the only one who suffers from that



i for the most part will only "argue" about the content/application of the system (internal side) and not about the history and claims i hear from all sides.

best,

bruce


Cool but there's points to question for applications based on history & introduction of material without content & debately history to accompany it. Not saying "something" can't be done out of "X" movement, but without proper background & training, can it be reliable as that or is something greater missing?

Anyways if you're back in town, stay out of the heat...

[arinathos.valin]

Thank you, Sean, for posting a link that made me want to dig my eyes out with a rusty spoon...

[brucereiter]

Cool but there's points to question for applications based on history & introduction of material without content & debately history to accompany it. Not saying "something" can't be done out of "X" movement, but without proper background & training, can it be reliable as that or is something greater missing?

in a way i agree ...



Anyways if you're back in town, stay out of the heat...

i am in chicago now pretty good weather here but we just came up from texas, wow! it was hot and humid.

[bodhi warrior]

What some people refuse to realize is GMS is not the new kid on the block...he has been teaching here since the 60's...we have been to Indonesia & seen where he trained, met some of his colleagues...and saw how they were honored by his presence.....once again this has also been beat to death. BW it wouldn't matter anyway....anyone who is in the public eye like GMS will be attacked...that's part of the terr.
BQ

Being that this would be a big deal for any SD student, did anyone by chance take any pictures? I for one would love to see the school and these colleagues:)
But how come these colleagues are never mentioned by name, these are people he attended the school with and also got some taichi 24 from, but he never mentions their names.:cool: Just curious.

[bodhi warrior]

Wow, that's some real classy monks that would laugh at the people who come across the ocean to see them. Their not even monks. Their just wushu people who pretend to be monks to bring money to the government.;)

[sean_stonehart]

Thank you, Sean, for posting a link that made me want to dig my eyes out with a rusty spoon...

We do what we can... :D;)

[lkfmdc]

Wow, that's some real classy monks that would laugh at the people who come across the ocean to see them. Their not even monks. Their just wushu people who pretend to be monks to bring money to the government.;)

1. Gee, what a shock, you're a Shaolin Doh! guy :rolleyes:

2. Well, if they are "just wushu people who pretend to be monks to bring money to the government" then a bunch of fake monks putting up a stone tablet for Sin The doesn't mean much does it?

[Golden Tiger]

Being that this would be a big deal for any SD student, did anyone by chance take any pictures? I for one would love to see the school and these colleagues:)
But how come these colleagues are never mentioned by name, these are people he attended the school with and also got some taichi 24 from, but he never mentions their names.:cool: Just curious.


Actually, there are some pictures. I forget who took them and on which trip (it was a few years ago remember) but which ever trip it was, they stopped in Bandung and spent some time as Master Sin's parents house. They met up with some fellow that was a colleague and I want to say his nickname was something eagle or something to that effect. Older looking fellow, and the one that was holding the notes I think. Heck, it was a longgg time ago.

Anyway, I will ask around and see if I can find the pictures.

[bodhi warrior]

thanks, that would be great!

[Mas Judt]

i'd be surprised if they actually appeared... the tale keeps growing in the telling...

[Shaolin Wookie]

GMT was featured in IKFM several times, ironically. But anyone who implies that he believes everything GMT says is probably not very intelligent.

1. It contradicts all other info.

But perhaps more importantly:

2. You shouldn't believe everything anyone says.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Excepting, of course, Pres. Bush.;)

[Judge Pen]

Oh I know... fire away :D , but that's not what I was using them for as indicative performances, but as representative of the topic at hand.

Besides... you kick about as well as I do... I'll move my ankles before you get there. :P

Didn't you know? I've got full splits now...:p

And you may not have intended them for indicative performances, but its hard to get past some of those videos. Not knocking them per se, most of them are regular guys that stuck around and learned the forms and are doing them the best they can, but from their stances and intent its not a great example. And I still scratch my head at the Tiger/Crane video..... I can do that form in my sleep right now and I still strain to recognize his version.

[bodhi warrior]

1. Gee, what a shock, you're a Shaolin Doh! guy :rolleyes:

2. Well, if they are "just wushu people who pretend to be monks to bring money to the government" then a bunch of fake monks putting up a stone tablet for Sin The doesn't mean much does it?

Your right. It doesn't mean anything to me. I could care less about the carnaville show called shaolin in china. I also don't care for the promoting of a stone tablet to make my art seem more legit. I don't agree with alot of things Sin The' has done, all I know are the techniques I learn from my teacher. Regardless of how he obtained them, the techniques are real and useful to me. The majority of schools in SD are becoming very watered down and weak. You see it very clearly in the CSC videos. But there are also some very good teachers who have a good grasp of different types of training ie. forms, stances, drills, conditioning.

[mantis7]

Man, I wish I still had the article of the Sharon (Soards or whatever her name was) and her group buying the stone thingy to honor 'Sin. The article, if i remeber correctly, was in IKF, in the back page with the school adverts. This was before it became that the monks honoring him with the steele.

[sean_stonehart]

Didn't you know? I've got full splits now...:p



You lie...:eek:;)

[kwaichang]

JP does not lie he can do it ive seen him The splits that is KC

[sean_stonehart]

Photographic proof then...

JP's a lawyer... fibbing is ingrained & part & parcel for him as a profession... :eek::eek::D:D

[brucereiter]

i'd be surprised if they actually appeared... the tale keeps growing in the telling...

hi bhodi, mas and the rest ...

here are a few pictures from that time that were given to me.


The photo is in front of Master Ie's home. Master Sin is in the middle with Master Ie's adopted son and family. sr master grooms on the far right of the photo, Master David Theroff is the guy ****hest to the left. earlier that day they visited Master Sin's parents and his brother Sang's (hiang) home.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/MasterIeshouse001.jpg

demo/banquet that was done in Master Sin's honor.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo001.jpg


copy of the ticket to the demo/banquet that was done in Master Sin's honor.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo-Ticket001.jpg

best,

bruce

[bodhi warrior]

Hey bruce, thanks for the pics. Looked like a big event! I wish we had more pics of stuff like that, as well as when Sin was training. I think it would help curb some of the anti sd sentiment.

[brucereiter]

Hey bruce, thanks for the pics. Looked like a big event! I wish we had more pics of stuff like that, as well as when Sin was training. I think it would help curb some of the anti sd sentiment.

it might ... lol ... but "they" will always find something to pick on ...

i too would like to see/hear more about ie/sin's training and hear about the method and day to day practice etc ... if any "older" sd people have any pictures or documents they would like to share with the public that would be awesome.

best,

bruce

[Leto]

That's a lot of folks to bring to someone's house *lol* I see some other familiar faces in there too. When was this trip? early eighties?

on a side note...Master Theroff looks miserable every time I see a picture of him. He must be a super serious guy. Even at his sixth black promotion, he barely cracked a smile. :)

[brucereiter]

That's a lot of folks to bring to someone's house *lol* I see some other familiar faces in there too.




sure is ... lol ...

When was this trip? early eighties?

july 1 1992 is when the demo/banquet was according to the picture of the ticket to the event which is linked in the previous post.



on a side note...Master Theroff looks miserable every time I see a picture of him. He must be a super serious guy. Even at his sixth black promotion, he barely cracked a smile. :)



i have never met him but several people i know have spoken highly of him.

best,

bruce

[bodhi warrior]

Just read this book, and I must say I see some similarities in training between one of the co-authors(tjoa khek kiong) and shaolin do. This guy taught chinese martial arts in indonesia and looking at the form it has a familiar flavor to it. I really liked how he broke down martial arts into three groups, one for fighting, one for health, and one for show. Anyone else read this or other books by the same author?

[bodhi warrior]

I was at the bookstore today and was browsing some of the martial material, when I picked up this book about Tang Soo Do. I started reading the history and it went on about how the art dates back so many thousand years and that Hwang kee combined them with chinese martial arts. But it never mentions how Hwang kee came upon these techniques. In a black belt magazine interview in sept. 1984 it states he was virtually self taught. He learned from books and practiced in secluded areas. Later he travelled to china and learned some softer flowing hand techniques.
Sounds kinda familiar.

[Leto]

Yes, I've got that book. I was hoping I'd see some black tiger similar to the four forms taught in SD, but it's really quite different. It's probably closer to the luohan forms, which makes sense since the book is only the very basic material in that black tiger system.

[bodhi warrior]

The opening sequence for the form in the book looks very much like our ching kong fu hu chien, and chie chien. But your right the form is different than our black tigers. But I did see similarities in the section called elements of training.

[golden arhat]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qemnikjhBkI


dear god dear f@cking god

loll i igonored the shaolin do thread entirely before
and just discovered what u guys were talking about just now


dear god where do u find these ppl ?

as they say

"only in america" :(

[B-Rad]

It's difficult to watch, it's so much like the martial arts I started out learning when I was a teenager. On one hand, many of the SD people are soooooo nice, but watching the videos you feel a little ticked that someone like Sin The can get away with scamming people like that. Of course they're having so much fun and getting healthy it doesn't seem possible that it's all based on a lies and deception. If he hadn't been caught touching young girls (among other crimes), my first teacher would be well on his way to having a large chain like this.