Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[cjurakpt]

what I want to know - WHO does Sin Thé's hair? I mean, those auburn highlights are just to DIE for!

[B-Rad]

i heard through the grapevine the monks actually fell asleep and were laughing at parts of Sin the's shaolin do presentation at the temple.
Sounds like kind of an exaggeration of some things that Gene had hinted at in one of his comments about the Shaolin-Do visit to Shaolin.


The majority of schools in SD are becoming very watered down and weak. You see it very clearly in the CSC videos.
I don't know, seems to me to be the other way around from seeing some of the older teachers, including Sin The. It was weak and watered down to begin with while some have managed to turn it into something more solid from a martial perspective. Most of these teachers are easily out classed by middle level to senior students of legit masters or amateur level sport fighters.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

What have I been doing all these years? I have been teaching, what I THOUGHT was good CMA, when I really should have just started a cult.

[cjurakpt]

What have I been doing all these years? I have been teaching, what I THOUGHT was good CMA, when I really should have just started a cult.

yeah, you even got the head shaving thing backwards - it's the students who are supposed to do it ya' nimrod...

[B-Rad]

lol, seriously, it's such an easy con that I'm really surprised I don't see more of it. Of course a lot of criminals can't just stop at the martial arts con and are involved with other crimes like molesting kids, evading taxes, and so on :p Those with some self control (who probably find justification for fabricating training history in the legends of the past) can make a pretty good living. My first teacher had gotten over 100 paying monthly students at around $60/month. Including uniform sales, weapon sales, belt test fees ranging from something like $50-$1000, black belt programs and "grandmaster" programs from $5,000-$10,000, seminars teaching stolen and made up material... he was doing pretty well for himself. Students included black belts from legit systems, lawyers, a former pro athlete, at least one police officer, an ex special forces soldier... even a jujitsu guy who was a fairly successful mma fighter. Looking back it's all a little baffling. There's just something about teaching martial arts that gives you a lot of power over otherwise intelligent reasonable people.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

yeah, you even got the head shaving thing backwards - it's the students who are supposed to do it ya' nimrod...

D'oh!

:eek:

[cjurakpt]

D'oh!

:eek:

of course, it's never too late to start...pass the Kool Aide!

[lkfmdc]

I am incorporating tomorrow, my new organization

SCAM-LIN DO

[cjurakpt]

I am incorporating tomorrow, my new organization

SCAM-LIN DO

we await your instructions...

[lkfmdc]

we await your instructions...

there's gonna be a lot of head shaving, a lot of chi healing and taekwondo forms.... that's all I am saying for now

[cjurakpt]

there's gonna be a lot of head shaving, a lot of chi healing and taekwondo forms.... that's all I am saying for now

so pretty much a regular Friday night...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I prefer to call my newly founded cult;

$haolin-Dough

:)

[lkfmdc]

so pretty much a regular Friday night...

no, on Fridays we do Heian forms and call them Tai Chi

[cjurakpt]

I prefer to call my newly founded cult;

$haolin-Dough

:)


no, on Fridays we do Heian forms and call them Tai Chi

BTW, this is why it's still a trip to hang with you guys after all these years - great seeing you both the other day, hope to do it again soon

[lkfmdc]

BTW, this is why it's still a trip to hang with you guys after all these years - great seeing you both the other day, hope to do it again soon

well, here's an invite ;)

[cjurakpt]

LOL

but isn't it "Chi Canine-ery?"

[lkfmdc]

Bark Mei Pai :D

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I prefer to call my newly founded cult;

$haolin-Dough

:)


I had to repost that again because it was so goddamm funny!

BAAM!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yuk it up fellas.

But we know you're jealous of our Chu style Bagua.

[Leto]

Chu Bagua?
Wu Ki Quan? (fist of the walking carpet)

You mean the five animal frolics don't include bantha chews fodder and gundarc lunges at nerfherder?

But they told me my midichlorian count was high...

[tattooedmonk]

I had to repost that again because it was so goddamm funny!

BAAM!!Just curious as to why someone who seems to have a profitable business and such as you do finds it neccesary to attack others and their styles??

You deminished any last shred of respect I had for you.

You know, I receive your newsletter/ announcements via email and value what is in them for what it is ,but you know some of the stuff you publish and teach is worse than anything I have ever seen in the CMA community


Basically you are no one to talk

[tattooedmonk]

you guys are killing me with this stuff!!!:D

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Just curious as to why someone who seems to have a profitable business and such as you do finds it neccesary to attack others and their styles??

You deminished any last shred of respect I had for you.

You know, I receive your newsletter/ announcements via email and value what is in them for what it is ,but you know some of the stuff you publish and teach is worse than anything I have ever seen in the CMA community


Basically you are no one to talk


Thank you. You made me laugh. I appreciate that.

[tattooedmonk]

Thank you. You made me laugh. I appreciate that.this does not answer the question??

[tattooedmonk]

Another thing I was wondering about your program.....it seems that you have a lot of the trappings of Japanese karate and mc dojos.

What is the deal wth this??

ie. patches, belt / sashes ,kung fu parties ,etc?? I also noticed you are fat and have a receeding hairline , must be the reason you shaved your head.:D

your myspace page says you have a body builder type body.:rolleyes::eek:

[lkfmdc]

Well, when you are a dedicated zombie follower of the dog faced kenpo movement, I guess all you have left is to talk about receeding hairlines :rolleyes:

[firepalm]

Just chimed into this one. Feel compelled to add a few comments;


Wow, that's some real classy monks that would laugh at the people who come across the ocean to see them. Their not even monks. Their just wushu people who pretend to be monks to bring money to the government.;)

You know bodhi w., sighting them as 'classy monks' or wushu people posing as monks does not invalidate their opinion and what they saw they obviously found laughible. I am not saying it's good manners by 'western standards' & I have witnessed it many times myself in China but many over there will laugh when they see something inferior being passed off as good Chinese Martial Arts. Unlike Sin's people, the 'Monks' (whether or not they are valid monks or not is inconsequential in this case) & most regular Chinese people alike have seen a hell of a lot more in the realm of Chinese Martial Arts and can recognize real skill. I am only speculating but I can guess looked at Sin's people and were so unimpressed to the point of thinking WTF!

And buying a tablet at the front of Shaolin means nothing at all, you have the money anyone can do it. Having the tablet does not validate 'Sin' or his 'stuff'.

I have seen some of Sin's students I place them up there with the Temple Kung Fu sorts, Kenpo trying to pass itself off as Chinese Martial Arts.

You can say that lkfmdc lacks etiquette but me personally I appreciate his straight forwardness. He comes from a background of traditional CMA and has gone forward into the area of full contact fighting so I would guess that he has seen enough to certainly be able to recognize a legitimite Chinese Martial Art.

Once again my own opinion, Sin's stuff is right up there with Temple Kung Fu (as well as Shou shu) and it's all C R A P!
:eek:

[David Jamieson]

which one of you gave ross the photoshop?

lol

too funny man

"checkers"

[lkfmdc]

which one of you gave ross the photoshop?



I AM INSULTED!

I did that photoshop on my own!

[tattooedmonk]

Just chimed into this one. Feel compelled to add a few comments;



You know bodhi w., sighting them as 'classy monks' or wushu people posing as monks does not invalidate their opinion and what they saw they obviously found laughible. I am not saying it's good manners by 'western standards' & I have witnessed it many times myself in China but many over there will laugh when they see something inferior being passed off as good Chinese Martial Arts. Unlike Sin's people, the 'Monks' (whether or not they are valid monks or not is inconsequential in this case) & most regular Chinese people alike have seen a hell of a lot more in the realm of Chinese Martial Arts and can recognize real skill. I am only speculating but I can guess looked at Sin's people and were so unimpressed to the point of thinking WTF!

And buying a tablet at the front of Shaolin means nothing at all, you have the money anyone can do it. Having the tablet does not validate 'Sin' or his 'stuff'.

I have seen some of Sin's students I place them up there with the Temple Kung Fu sorts, Kenpo trying to pass itself off as Chinese Martial Arts.

You can say that lkfmdc lacks etiquette but me personally I appreciate his straight forwardness. He comes from a background of traditional CMA and has gone forward into the area of full contact fighting so I would guess that he has seen enough to certainly be able to recognize a legitimite Chinese Martial Art.

Once again my own opinion, Sin's stuff is right up there with Temple Kung Fu (as well as Shou shu) and it's all C R A P!
:eek:I wonder why it can not be understood by you people that SD has DIFFFRENT TRADITIONS because of the geographical direction it went after leaving China.

As for the Traditions in CMA a lot of it is STRAIGHT C R A P and has nothing to do with real martial arts. Lion dancing , flowery movements, cerimonies and rituals, and all that was added to the arts after they left the temple and /or a part of Family traditions, but have NOTHING to do with legitimacyof the arts .

I think you guys spend too much time argueing about the differences in everything and do not focus on the similarities. The uniform , the terminology , etc. does not matter.

I know that the stone tablets have nothing to offer in the way of legitimacy either.

[David Jamieson]

I wonder why it can not be understood by you people that SD has DIFFFRENT TRADITIONS because of the geographical direction it went after leaving China.

As for the Traditions in CMA a lot of it is STRAIGHT C R A P and has nothing to do with real martial arts. Lion dancing , flowery movements, cerimonies and rituals, and all that was added to the arts after they left the temple and /or a part of Family traditions, but have NOTHING to do with legitimacyof the arts .

I think you guys spend too much time argueing about the differences in everything and do not focus on the similarities. The uniform , the terminology , etc. does not matter.

I know that the stone tablets have nothing to offer in the way of legitimacy either.

I think that calling the cultural traditions straight crap is the same as calling anyones traditions crap. how about the Muay Thai homage to Garuda? Is that straight crap or just something that's part and parcel? How about the Janga in capoeira? Crap?

yes, there are lots of traditional elements of acquiring kungfu through practice of chinese martial arts that have little to do with martial art, but so what, that's how it is, it's tied into it. If you want to bypass that, then just go learn san shou and you can avoid all that.

however, there is a difference between culturally relevanyt stuff and outright bs such as dog faced hairy monks and using stones at shaolin that were paid for to present oneself as something they are not. Not to mention the near complete disconnect from virtually all styles of actual tcma.

it's like if I held up a pineapple and insisted that it was an orange.

[tattooedmonk]

I think that calling the cultural traditions straight crap is the same as calling anyones traditions crap. how about the Muay Thai homage to Garuda? Is that straight crap or just something that's part and parcel? How about the Janga in capoeira? Crap?

yes, there are lots of traditional elements of acquiring kungfu through practice of chinese martial arts that have little to do with martial art, but so what, that's how it is, it's tied into it. If you want to bypass that, then just go learn san shou and you can avoid all that.

however, there is a difference between culturally relevanyt stuff and outright bs such as dog faced hairy monks and using stones at shaolin that were paid for to present oneself as something they are not. Not to mention the near complete disconnect from virtually all styles of actual tcma.

it's like if I held up a pineapple and insisted that it was an orange.It is crap in the sense that it has nothing to do with the martial arts and was not practiced inside the temple the way that it is presented in TCMA schools.

This was something that was added after the fact.

As for the near disconection from All styles of TCMA I think this was the idea. The material and history is still the same.

I am curious as to how you guys come up with these conclusions based on just stuff you get off the net , amazing.

[firepalm]

As for the Traditions in CMA a lot of it is STRAIGHT C R A P and has nothing to do with real martial arts. Lion dancing , flowery movements, cerimonies and rituals, and all that was added to the arts after they left the temple and /or a part of Family traditions, but have NOTHING to do with legitimacyof the arts.

As David Jamieson mentioned it's just part of the arts and how it is. A lot of these traditions are representative of regional culture & custom (i.e.; Lion Dance is primarily a Cantonese / South Chinese activity). But what I don't understand in responding to my statement is how you think this supports your argument? The 'monks' laughing is in all likelyhood because what they saw thought was very bad martial arts. Bad manners perhaps but still a response to bad martial arts.

As to your argument of the geographical direction your style went on, a lot of Asian martial arts are reflective of this. Many Fukien styles found there way to places like Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, etc... but style retain their essence. I guess Shaolin Do when it went to Indonesia I believe it was morphed into Kenpo.

Perhaps if you got out more and saw more of the Chinese Martial Arts you'd see that what you do (Shaolin Do) is pretty substandard and really nothing more then kenpo (which in of itself is not CMA).

:cool:

[lkfmdc]

I guess Shaolin Do when it went to Indonesia I believe it was morphed into Kenpo?

Perhaps if you got out more and saw more of the Chinese Martial Arts you'd see that what you do (Shaolin Do) is pretty substandard and really nothing more then kenpo (which in of itself is not CMA).



LMFAO, had to re-post this part

[sean_stonehart]

As for the Traditions in CMA a lot of it is STRAIGHT C R A P and has nothing to do with real martial arts. Lion dancing , flowery movements, cerimonies and rituals, and all that was added to the arts after they left the temple and /or a part of Family traditions, but have NOTHING to do with legitimacyof the arts .


Well... that just about proves it... you know squat about CMA.



I think you guys spend too much time argueing about the differences in everything and do not focus on the similarities. The uniform , the terminology , etc. does not matter.

Nah just the things that make it overtly obvious that you don't practice CMA without moving.



I know that the stone tablets have nothing to offer in the way of legitimacy either.

Nah given the TKD school stele at the Henan temple towards the front of the line that his is in... or the Tang Soo Do school's... or the Shorin-ryu's... etc...

[tattooedmonk]

Well... that just about proves it... you know squat about CMA.



Nah just the things that make it overtly obvious that you don't practice CMA without moving.



Nah given the TKD school stele at the Henan temple towards the front of the line that his is in... or the Tang Soo Do school's... or the Shorin-ryu's... etc...How so??

My point here is that these are the things that most of the people base the legitimacy or lack there of on.

I know the difference.

Once again, how is it that you base your opinon on a dozen or so peoples performances and website informtion and come to the conclusions you do/??

[jit fu]

ttm,
if you don't know where you've been then you don't know where you're going. if you practiced tcma's then you would understand, you only attack it because you don't have it in what you do. without the "cultural crap", you're only practising ma's without the tc, tjma, ect. so that by definition makes what you do not tcma's. i'm not trying to be an arse only pointing out some valid points.

[tattooedmonk]

ttm,
if you don't know where you've been then you don't know where you're going. if you practiced tcma's then you would understand, you only attack it because you don't have it in what you do. without the "cultural crap", you're only practising ma's without the tc, tjma, ect. so that by definition makes what you do not tcma's. i'm not trying to be an arse only pointing out some valid points. I am just curious as to how you guys miss all the points and misread into everything that is posted.I do practice TCMA I just have different traditions.

[lkfmdc]

I am just curious as to how you guys miss all the points and misread into everything that is posted.


Everyone here get's the whole picture very clearly, except for you. Too much kool aid, too much brain washing - time for the deprograming to begin, but we already see "stage one" = hostility, with evidence of stage two = denile




I do practice TCMA I just have different traditions.



NO, you practice kenpo, and a bad version at that... and adhere to stories no one over the age of 9 should believe

[jit fu]

ttm,

no problem. but if your art hails from fukien, it's reasonable to think that what is taught in your system would have more of a hakka type base and execution, or at the very least a more hung type feel. from the curriculum i've seen, it seems a complete mix of alot of different stystems. each with there own energy, stance, history, execution and general way of "how they do it". from the videos i've seen , shaolin do performs the hua kuen same just as they do fu hok. no ill feelings just curious to hear your take on it.

[lkfmdc]

LMFAO, this is from one of their web sites



Grand Master The' continued his education at the University of Kentucky and was on the verge of completing his Master's Degree in Nuclear Engineering when Ie Chang Ming died at age 96. Grand Master The' realized that while there were many engineers and scientists, he was the only Shaolin Grand Master. He dropped his studies in order to devote all of his time to teaching the art of Shaolin.


Sure does sound like "couldn't cut it at school so he decided to cash in on the Shaolin craze" doesn't it :rolleyes:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Another thing I was wondering about your program.....it seems that you have a lot of the trappings of Japanese karate and mc dojos.

What is the deal wth this??

ie. patches, belt / sashes ,kung fu parties ,etc?? I also noticed you are fat and have a receeding hairline , must be the reason you shaved your head.:D

your myspace page says you have a body builder type body.:rolleyes::eek:

Trappings of Japanese Karate? Hmmm, I'm not sure what you mean by that. I never studied karate....

If you are asking about Kids Birthday Parties, I don't understand how marketing (because that is what a Kids B-Day party is all about - meeting new kids in the neighborhood) has anything to do with WHAT we teach.

And since you asked, I did gain a lot of weight over the last 24 months. I found out that I had an underactive thyroid which was the reason I gained. I have been on medication for a few months now and have went back to the gym and I'm looking better everyday! There are plenty of pics of me with a six-pack on my site, from just a few years ago, and at my current rate, I'll be back there in about 8 more weeks.

And thanks for noticing my hairline,...yes, I shaved my head because I was losing hair. Does that make U feel better? I really doesn't bother me as much as it used to, I kind of like the shaved head, especially in the summer and it's much better for grappling and MMA training.

If you took offense to me mocking Shaolin-Do, that's your perogative. If you feel it is necessary to 'fight back' and try to make fun of me, that too is your option. To answer your first question, 'why make fun'? It was a harmless comment...we were just joking around. I try not to take myself or anything else for that matter, too seriously. If you got offended, maybe it hit a sore spot with you. Maybe there were some truth in all those comments people made.

If I was giving my opinion and not just playing around, I would say that from what I have seen of Shaolin-Do, I admit that I think it is a complete and utter farce. I've been around CMA form more than half my life and been all over the world to learn it, view it and research it. The movements that are included in the Shaolin-Do style (at least most of them) bear little if any resemblance to TCMA. This is observation I am making from watching clips on youtube. It is my opinion. You are certainly entitled to yours and I am mine.

[tattooedmonk]

Trappings of Japanese Karate? Hmmm, I'm not sure what you mean by that. I never studied karate....

If you are asking about Kids Birthday Parties, I don't understand how marketing (because that is what a Kids B-Day party is all about - meeting new kids in the neighborhood) has anything to do with WHAT we teach.

And since you asked, I did gain a lot of weight over the last 24 months. I found out that I had an underactive thyroid which was the reason I gained. I have been on medication for a few months now and have went back to the gym and I'm looking better everyday! There are plenty of pics of me with a six-pack on my site, from just a few years ago, and at my current rate, I'll be back there in about 8 more weeks.

And thanks for noticing my hairline,...yes, I shaved my head because I was losing hair. Does that make U feel better? I really doesn't bother me as much as it used to, I kind of like the shaved head, especially in the summer and it's much better for grappling and MMA training.

If you took offense to me mocking Shaolin-Do, that's your perogative. If you feel it is necessary to 'fight back' and try to make fun of me, that too is your option. To answer your first question, 'why make fun'? It was a harmless comment...we were just joking around. I try not to take myself or anything else for that matter, too seriously. If you got offended, maybe it hit a sore spot with you. Maybe there were some truth in all those comments people made.

If I was giving my opinion and not just playing around, I would say that from what I have seen of Shaolin-Do, I admit that I think it is a complete and utter farce. I've been around CMA form more than half my life and been all over the world to learn it, view it and research it. The movements that are included in the Shaolin-Do style (at least most of them) bear little if any resemblance to TCMA. This is observation I am making from watching clips on youtube. It is my opinion. You are certainly entitled to yours and I am mine. Trappings of karate???>.... meaning the patches, sashes/ belts , etc.

MCKWOON!

As for the other stuff I was trying to make a point about class , respect , understanding, etc. I do not normally point these things out, but I found in your case to point these things out to show you how immature and juvenile you were being .

I feel that anyone that has as much going for you as you do, does not have to resort to this type of activity.

I know you have barely seen anything when it comes to SD based on your opinions and comments.

Did you ever think that the people that have posted these clips and info are the minority and not the majority? How can anyone base their opinions on anything from the very smallest amount of info available??

like you said you have your opinion and I have mine. Take care

[lkfmdc]

Trappings of karate???>.... meaning the patches, sashes/ belts , etc.


You mean like the Shaolin Do people all have? :rolleyes:




MCKWOON!


Shaolin Doh idiots screaming "MCKWOON" - priceless :rolleyes:




I know you have barely seen anything when it comes to SD based on your opinions and comments.



ah, your favorite tactic, to claim we haven't seen it. WE HAVE, plenty of times, we've seen what Shaolin Do itself puts up as examples of what they do....

IT IS CRAP

[SaintSage]

He could use a ranking system based on the ancient art of Kabbalah for all I care, but his lineage is real. He really did study under who he says he studied with. And though I haven't had the pleasure to see it in person, I'll bet his kung fu is the real deal too.

[brucereiter]

ah, your favorite tactic, to claim we haven't seen it. WE HAVE, plenty of times, we've seen what Shaolin Do itself puts up as examples of what they do....

IT IS CRAP

hey i am not that crap lol and i am a sd student ... ...
what do you think is so crap about the way i express what i have learned in shaolin do?

http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter


best,

bruce

[tattooedmonk]

You mean like the Shaolin Do people all have? :rolleyes:



Shaolin Doh idiots screaming "MCKWOON" - priceless :rolleyes:



ah, your favorite tactic, to claim we haven't seen it. WE HAVE, plenty of times, we've seen what Shaolin Do itself puts up as examples of what they do....

IT IS CRAP#1 your point??

#2 Just firing right back with the same BS you all do.

#3 So you have seen all that SD has to offer? These are students that have regular jobs and lives @$$wipe. DUH!!! You ,must have been studying longer than Master Sin then huh??

[DPL]

"It's completely fine for everyone to attack Shaolin-Do all the time, but don't attack back! It's mean and makes me want to go potty!"

MMA folks think TCMA and SD are crap. TCMA folks think SD is crap and MMA is overblown. SD folks think TCMA and MMA are crap. Everyone has a vested interest in believing their stuff is good and that they have good reasons to do what they do. Nobody's convincing anyone else of anything.

Just train.

[tattooedmonk]

hey i am not that crap lol and i am a sd student ... ...
what do you think is so crap about the way i express what i have learned in shaolin do?

http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter


best,

bruce
Hey man, it does not matter what you put up these guys know that you are SD. if it is good they will deny it and make fun of you . They are caught up with believeing all that they know , uniforms , cerimonies, rituals, , etc.

I think you are doing a great job man , keep up the good work.

[SaintSage]

"It's completely fine for everyone to attack Shaolin-Do all the time, but don't attack back! It's mean and makes me want to go potty!"

MMA folks think TCMA and SD are crap. TCMA folks think SD is crap and MMA is overblown. SD folks think TCMA and MMA are crap. Everyone has a vested interest in believing their stuff is good and that they have good reasons to do what they do. Nobody's convincing anyone else of anything.

Just train.

How about, don't stoop to someone else's level when you don't have a leg to stand on. To quote another forum member, "I am neither friend nor foe of Shaolin-Do." But I do happen to like Lama Pai Sifu, lkfmdc, and a lot of the other regulars, so I'm going to stick up for them.

[tattooedmonk]

"It's completely fine for everyone to attack Shaolin-Do all the time, but don't attack back! It's mean and makes me want to go potty!"

MMA folks think TCMA and SD are crap. TCMA folks think SD is crap and MMA is overblown. SD folks think TCMA and MMA are crap. Everyone has a vested interest in believing their stuff is good and that they have good reasons to do what they do. Nobody's convincing anyone else of anything.

Just train.And BINGO was his name o!!

[tattooedmonk]

How about, don't stoop to someone else's level when you don't have a leg to stand on. To quote another forum member, "I am neither friend nor foe of Shaolin-Do." But I do happen to like Lama Pai Sifu, lkfmdc, and a lot of the other regulars, so I'm going to stick up for them.I am glad you respect others that dis-respect others and make fun of everything other than what they do. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

SD may be fine and dandy, the issue everyone has with it is that it is deceptive about what it is. It's actually some sort of Indo/Mix system, and hardy the Shaolin it claims to be. That is why everyone dislikes it. It is the Gold Standard of BS martial schools.

[SaintSage]

Hey man, it does not matter what you put up these guys know that you are SD. if it is good they will deny it and make fun of you . They are caught up with believeing all that they know , uniforms , cerimonies, rituals, , etc.

I think you are doing a great job man , keep up the good work.

:rolleyes:

If you showed them something they liked, they'd tell you. Now, finding something they like can be a bit harder...:D

[DPL]

How about, don't stoop to someone else's level when you don't have a leg to stand on. To quote another forum member, "I am neither friend nor foe of Shaolin-Do." But I do happen to like Lama Pai Sifu, lkfmdc, and a lot of the other regulars, so I'm going to stick up for them.

You're going to stick up for them while they're blasting this art of which you're neither friend nor foe? But if a member of that art tries to fight back you get mad?

Yeah, that's good logic.

Sort of like not being a friend or foe of a stranger who's getting attacked by one of your buddies but if the guy tries to defend himself you gang up on him...?

How very noble of you.

[SaintSage]

I am glad you respect others that dis-respect others and make fun of everything other than what they do. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You attacked his kung fu, not his character. I didn't say, "don't blast him for attacking you." His kung fu and his character are two different things.

[tattooedmonk]

:rolleyes:

If you showed them something they liked, they'd tell you. Now, finding something they like can be a bit harder...:D
Well IMHO I think that they are being overly critical and there is plenty of things in the footage that is presented that they could compliment on. They are caught up in non-intrinsic values.AlL of these people are normal everyday people with regular lives.

[tattooedmonk]

You attacked his kung fu, not his character. I didn't say, "don't blast him for attacking you." His kung fu and his character are two different things.as to what are you refering to??

[brucereiter]

LMFAO, this is from one of their web sites



Sure does sound like "couldn't cut it at school so he decided to cash in on the Shaolin craze" doesn't it :rolleyes:

was there a "shaolin craze" in the mid and late 1960's?

[SaintSage]

You're going to stick up for them while they're blasting this art of which you're neither friend nor foe? But if a member of that art tries to fight back you get mad?

Yeah, that's good logic.

Sort of like not being a friend or foe of a stranger who's getting attacked by one of your buddies but if the guy tries to defend himself you gang up on him...?

How very noble of you.

I defended someone who, while not technically a friend, I happen to like. tattoed's attacks were wrong.

Oh, and if the guy pulled a knife and was being excessive, you're **** right I'd back up my buddy. I can't make his moral desicisons, but I can protect what is his.

[SaintSage]

as to what are you refering to??

As in I didn't defend what he did to you, only what you attacked.

[DPL]

I defended someone who, while not technically a friend, I happen to like. His attack were wrong.

Oh, and if the guy pulled a knife and was being excessive, you're **** right I'd back up my buddy. I can't make his moral desicisons, but I can protect what is his.

Keep your metaphors consistent. If the SD guy is 'stooping to the level' of the guy who's attacking him, it means your buddy was already attacking with a knife before the stranger pulled a knife to defend himself. So you're still ganging up on this thing for which you're 'neither friend nor foe.'

Meh, I don't really give a sh!t anyway. I just get tired of the rationalizations coming out of the TCMA community on this subject. It's okay for all of the little indiscretions in everyone else's past (I mean, jeez, look at the sh!t lkfmdc wrote about TCMA in his downward spiral thread) but as I've posted before, SD is the church wh0re so it's okay to gang up on it constantly.

[brucereiter]

Hey man, it does not matter what you put up these guys know that you are SD. if it is good they will deny it and make fun of you . They are caught up with believeing all that they know , uniforms , cerimonies, rituals, , etc.

I think you are doing a great job man , keep up the good work.

thanks :-)

the reason i put the clips out is to show my expression of these arts as i was taught in our system for anyone who is interested

best

bruce.

[SaintSage]

Keep your metaphors consistent. If the SD guy is 'stooping to the level' of the guy who's attacking him, it means your buddy was already attacking with a knife before the stranger pulled a knife to defend himself. So you're still ganging up on this thing for which you're 'neither friend nor foe.'

Meh, I don't really give a sh!t anyway. I just get tired of the rationalizations coming out of the TCMA community on this subject. It's okay for all of the little indiscretions in everyone else's past (I mean, jeez, look at the sh!t lkfmdc wrote about TCMA in his downward spiral thread) but as I've posted before, SD is the church wh0re so it's okay to gang up on it constantly.

:rolleyes:

From what I saw (and I may be wrong) I didn't see the wh0re getting attacked, but the act of wh0reing.

You used a bad metaphor, sorry I had to use a bad methaphor response...:rolleyes: That goes for both your first one and this one...

[DPL]

:rolleyes:

From what I saw (and I may be wrong) I didn't see the wh0re getting attacked, but the act of wh0reing.

You used a bad metaphor, sorry I had to use a bad methaphor response...:rolleyes: That goes for both your first one and this one...

LOL. Actually, the first metaphor was spot-on and you screwed up your response and were called on it. Your response to my other metaphor pretty much proves my point, for which I thank you.

[tattooedmonk]

SD may be fine and dandy, the issue everyone has with it is that it is deceptive about what it is. It's actually some sort of Indo/Mix system, and hardy the Shaolin it claims to be. That is why everyone dislikes it. It is the Gold Standard of BS martial schools.See the thing is here that most of the people assume that we do not know what it is and what it is not.

Master Sin was taugh at an early age the history and lineage of the style. why would he have any reason to question his master?? As a child I am sure that it was hard to come by info. that could prove or disprove what was being taught to him . Hell , even up until recently you could out find accurate info. on a lot of these styles.

Now considering how devoted he was to his master and the lack of written records , and all these other things it is still his word against someone elses. And if you want to claim the now written history and the biased views and all that that have been accumulated over the last decade or so that is fine but it really proves nothing. They have no proof either, except their own records.

The funny thing is that when Master Sin gives seminars on all these forms and styles he gives a history lesson about the systems and styles and the forms specifically and says exactly where it came from . Most of the time is syncs up right with the history that everyone else professes.

Considering the laws or discrimination that was reflected on the Chinese in Indonesia, it stand to reason why Ie Chang Ming would alter ,modify, adapt,etc the material to be taught to his student.What is wrong with this??

It states in many articles about SD that Ie Chang Ming spent time traveling around asia picking up different styles and systems from different masters until he decided to stay in Indonesia.

I think that to many people have misquoted and misread what has been presented in regards to SD and it's Grandmaster.

It is Shaolin Do . The way of Shaolin . THis could mean just about anything and can be misunderstood.

As for the claims of grandmaster. He is the GrandMaster of SHAOLIN DO . It does not say that he is grandmaster of all the shaolin styles , that he is the Grandmaster of the temples, or anything like this.

[tattooedmonk]

I defended someone who, while not technically a friend, I happen to like. tattoed's attacks were wrong.

Oh, and if the guy pulled a knife and was being excessive, you're **** right I'd back up my buddy. I can't make his moral desicisons, but I can protect what is his.
No they were not . they are justified by the previous comments made on many other threads and posts.. I think these guys can defend themselves, although poorly and on the net!:D

[tattooedmonk]

thanks :-)

the reason i put the clips out is to show my expression of these arts as i was taught in our system for anyone who is interested

best

bruce.
You are welcome. The rest of the guys that practice CMA and are on this board think it has to look exactly like what everyone else does or it is not this or that. You are doing fine.

[kwaichang]

Late 1950 Judo/ Jujitsu
1960 Karate
1970 Kung fu
1980 Nin JItsu
1990 Kick Boxing
2000 MMA and Ju Jitsu

[David Jamieson]

Hey I have an idea, lets merge this thread with that 1500 post ass monster over on the other forum!!

[sean_stonehart]

How so??

How so what? How so I believe you know squat about CMA?? Really easily... all the things you poo-poo'd (lion dancing, ceremony, etc...) are part of the culture of CMA. You have no culture, you get half the story. You teach half the story, the student only learns half of that... until you get what SD has.... or rather doesn't have.



My point here is that these are the things that most of the people base the legitimacy or lack there of on.


No these are things that people who practice CMA all relate to because we all share the culture.



I know the difference.

I don't believe so.



Once again, how is it that you base your opinon on a dozen or so peoples performances and website informtion and come to the conclusions you do/??

5 + Years in SD...
2001 trip to China with SD with Ky, Tx SD peeps...
Colorado's video proving what's been said here for years...
Having seen a couple of people from Colorado first hand & not thinking much of them then, but having to play nice...

I've got a little more than first hand info...

[sha0lin1]

Considering the laws or discrimination that was reflected on the Chinese in Indonesia, it stand to reason why Ie Chang Ming would alter ,modify, adapt,etc the material to be taught to his student.What is wrong with this??

This would make sense and this is what SD teaches.

It states in many articles about SD that Ie Chang Ming spent time traveling around asia picking up different styles and systems from different masters until he decided to stay in Indonesia.

From what my understanding is was that ICM was a Monk who was SKTJ's disciple and ICM fled the destruction of that temple and relocated to Indonesia and I was told that these are the forms as taught at the Fukien temple. This information can also be found in the book written by James Halladay.

Now if SKTJ was a Monk who supposedly trained at every Shaolin Temple and learned every entire form that each temple taught he would be infamous and his name would be known by every monk at the Temple. Especially since he had the disease Lycanthropy and had hair all over his body. My master has never heard of him or legends of him at the temple and believe me they are well versed in their history and legends.

[tattooedmonk]

Considering the laws or discrimination that was reflected on the Chinese in Indonesia, it stand to reason why Ie Chang Ming would alter ,modify, adapt,etc the material to be taught to his student.What is wrong with this??

This would make sense and this is what SD teaches.

It states in many articles about SD that Ie Chang Ming spent time traveling around asia picking up different styles and systems from different masters until he decided to stay in Indonesia.

From what my understanding is was that ICM was a Monk who was SKTJ's disciple and ICM fled the destruction of that temple and relocated to Indonesia and I was told that these are the forms as taught at the Fukien temple. This information can also be found in the book written by James Halladay.

Now if SKTJ was a Monk who supposedly trained at every Shaolin Temple and learned every entire form that each temple taught he would be infamous and his name would be known by every monk at the Temple. Especially since he had the disease Lycanthropy and had hair all over his body. My master has never heard of him or legends of him at the temple and believe me they are well versed in their history and legends.Actually , It states in James halladays article in Inside Kung Fu magazine in the 80s, about the fact that Ie Chang Ming went all over Asia , etc before he went to Indonesia.

SKTJ did not study at all the Shaolin Temples , he only left the temple in Fukien twice in his life time. Most of the history that is known is from records passed on by specific master of specific systems and styles. Most of which now is being proven to be inaccurate.

Just so people know there where 3 shaolin temples at one time in Fukien province.

see this is what has started all the misunderstandings...people only taking pieces of what they have read, heard, and have thrown their own spin on it .

[tattooedmonk]

How so what? How so I believe you know squat about CMA?? Really easily... all the things you poo-poo'd (lion dancing, ceremony, etc...) are part of the culture of CMA. You have no culture, you get half the story. You teach half the story, the student only learns half of that... until you get what SD has.... or rather doesn't have.



No these are things that people who practice CMA all relate to because we all share the culture.



I don't believe so.



5 + Years in SD...
2001 trip to China with SD with Ky, Tx SD peeps...
Colorado's video proving what's been said here for years...
Having seen a couple of people from Colorado first hand & not thinking much of them then, but having to play nice...

I've got a little more than first hand info...No they are not, they are part of the Chinese culture and have been married to the CMA for only a short period of time.



All this stuff is non-intrinsic and are part of the CMA that came from China. Do you not know or are you not aware of the reasons why we have DIFFERENT TRADITIONS???


5+ years HAHA
trip to china??
A couple of people?? HAHA what the hell does that prove?? HAnd how many people study SD nation wide??

[DPL]

Hey I have an idea, lets merge this thread with that 1500 post ass monster over on the other forum!!

JP and I have both already tried that suggestion to no avail. I've decided to give in and just enjoy the flame war.

Regardless of which side you're on, if any, if you bang your head against the wall a couple of times before you start reading it makes it a much more rewarding experience. Much like castration makes singing high notes a much more rewarding experience.

[sha0lin1]

Actually , It states in James halladays article in Inside Kung Fu magazine in the 80s, about the fact that Ie Chang Ming went all over Asia , etc before he went to Indonesia.

SKTJ did not study at all the Shaolin Temples , he only left the temple in Fukien twice in his life time. Most of the history that is known is from records passed on by specific master of specific systems and styles. Most of which now is being proven to be inaccurate.

Just so people know there where 3 shaolin temples at one time in Fukien province.

see this is what has started all the misunderstandings...people only taking pieces of what they have read, heard, and have thrown their own spin on it .

I am quoting from James Halladay's book "Shaolin-Do:Secrets from the Temple" published in 1995. And also quoting from what was taught to me by your Masters and their students in Austin. Are you saying that they don't know what they are talking about. I have also heard this direct from GM SKT during seminars that I have attended. Are you shrugging me off as misunderstanding direct teachings? If so then you are saying that your own GM, Masters, and senior instructors are throwing their own spin on things because this comes direct from the source.

[DPL]

How so what? How so I believe you know squat about CMA?? Really easily... all the things you poo-poo'd (lion dancing, ceremony, etc...) are part of the culture of CMA. You have no culture, you get half the story. You teach half the story, the student only learns half of that... until you get what SD has.... or rather doesn't have.

No these are things that people who practice CMA all relate to because we all share the culture.


Sean, your post makes me sincerely curious: where is the list or bible of things that one's art must have/do in order to be considered a 'true' CMA? Do you have to believe a certain history? I know that not all styles' versions of history agree (remember the recent 'only truly authentic Shaolin' thread?), so which one is the right version that provides membership in the club?

I'm thinking beyond just the very tired SD discussion but my curiosity is obviously based in this discussion, because I've seen people from 'accepted' CMAs, on this forum or in PM, say things like 'well, SD produces people who can fight, but it's not CMA', or 'SD's pressure point strikers are excellent, but it's not CMA', or even, occasionally, posted here, 'It does look like a CMA.'

The folks who post the last one are admittedly few and far between, but it has happened, from people who aren't SD. So there are some non-SD CMAers who are willing to give SD some kind of benefit of the doubt from a pure forms perspective, but the majority clearly disagrees.

This disagreement brings me back to the question - what's the magical list of things you must have/do to be CMA?

I'd like some real meat with this answer, please. And if there are 10 defining characteristics of CMA and your art only has nine, is it no longer a 'real' CMA? Where do you draw the line?

Again, not specific to Shaolin-Do. All the witty SD pot-shots all you flamers out there just cleverly thought of have already been taken at least 10 times each. Don't be boring.

Consider the breadth of CMA with the answer, please.

[DPL]

The Xia,
Thanks but you didn't get my point - I'm asking NOT specific to Shaolin-Do. Please re-read previous post.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Shaolin Do is Chung Moo Quan/Oom Yung Doe lite....

[DPL]

Shaolin Do is Chung Moo Quan/Oom Yung Doe lite....

See, that's what I mean. That one's been done to death already.

Back to the question at hand, please.

[lkfmdc]

Sin The's kung fu is as fake as his hair and his ethnicity......

[DPL]

Sin The's kung fu is as fake as his hair and his ethnicity......

Good one. That one's only been posted at least 20 times too.

Back to the question at hand, please.

[lkfmdc]

why is it fake? Want a couple of reasons?

as already mentioned a few thousand times, a random collection of sets from various sources, all played the same.... Hung Ga doesn't look like Pak Hok, it certainly doesn't look like Ba Gua

a good sprinkling of modern wushu thrown in to impress the rubes.....

claims to ridiculous sets and styles that there is no record of ever existing (three hundred million angry bees of something?)

forget the karate gi, the karate weapons, the movement is kenpo, it is not CMA. If you can't see that, you obviously haven't done enough CMA

I could go on, but that will do for the short term

[tattooedmonk]

why is it fake? Want a couple of reasons?

as already mentioned a few thousand times, a random collection of sets from various sources, all played the same.... Hung Ga doesn't look like Pak Hok, it certainly doesn't look like Ba Gua

Here, this is finally something we can agree on . I have to admit that most of the practitioners do not have the proper '"flavor" and do not " play "the forms the way they should. It is very difficult sometimes to tell which style someone is doing unless you know the forms .

And as for the obscure , rare , unheard of forms , they show up all the time.

From what I have seen from the Fukien province forms( mostly white crane precursor to Karate) that are still taught in China they look a great deal like what we do.


Maybe it is you who does not know much about CMA.

[godzillakungfu]

And as for the obscure , rare , unheard of forms , they show up all the time.


Which ones?

[bodhi warrior]

To me, I don't see it as not looking like TCMA and looking like Karate. I see it as looking just plain bad.
Take this video as an example
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qemnikjhBkI
There are loads of things I can pick out about it. Out of all those things, I'll pick out what I find most glaring. Because of safety issues, it's their attempt at iron palm. They're leaning over and smashing their hands against the bag. That's a basic thing every sifu that teaches iron palm I've come across warns NOT to do from day 1 of training it.

I really wish people would stop comparing that hippie looking shaolin to Shaolin do. The Soards have really done some damage out west. Back in the 70's and 80's training in SD was tough. You poured sweat and blood. I had bruises all over the place from sparring. It was a mix of conditioning and forms. of course there's people that don't look that great, but its that way in every school no matter the style. Does shaolin do look like the wushu of today, hell no. And thank god for that. I've seen some very good fighters come out of SD and in the end that's all that matters.

[DPL]

why is it fake? Want a couple of reasons?

as already mentioned a few thousand times, a random collection of sets from various sources, all played the same.... Hung Ga doesn't look like Pak Hok, it certainly doesn't look like Ba Gua

a good sprinkling of modern wushu thrown in to impress the rubes.....

claims to ridiculous sets and styles that there is no record of ever existing (three hundred million angry bees of something?)

forget the karate gi, the karate weapons, the movement is kenpo, it is not CMA. If you can't see that, you obviously haven't done enough CMA

I could go on, but that will do for the short term

Wow, I try to give you guys the benefit of the doubt but you really aren't reading my post.

FORGET SHAOLIN-DO. Read my question again in my response to Sean. Everyone on here is all about the 'it's not CMA' but no one apparently can define what the checklist or bible of 'what it takes to be CMA'. Read my post again from about 11:30 last night and please respond to the actual question I asked.

Let me say it one more time just in case someone didn't see it in all caps above - FORGET SHAOLIN-DO. This is a question about CMA in general.

Like, thanks, dude.

[sha0lin1]

Just one question maybe some of the SD old timers can answer for me and all.
Why do the certificates you receive after a belt test say Sin The Karate Club.

[jit fu]

Here, this is finally something we can agree on . I have to admit that most of the practitioners do not have the proper '"flavor" and do not " play "the forms the way they should. It is very difficult sometimes to tell which style someone is doing unless you know the forms .

And as for the obscure , rare , unheard of forms , they show up all the time.

From what I have seen from the Fukien province forms( mostly white crane precursor to Karate) that are still taught in China they look a great deal like what we do.


Maybe it is you who does not know much about CMA.

what you do does not resemble fukien white crane...you're material does not contain tun, tow, fow, chum. :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

but no one apparently can define what the checklist or bible of 'what it takes to be CMA'.



Tin Yan Deih Sam Moon Hoi Baai Faat
Sae Moon Faat
Luk Moon Faat
saam Hop
Luk Hop
Lin Wan
Sahp Sae kiuh
Nin Kiuh
Jaat Kiuh
Jih Wu Bouh
Chat Sing Bouh
Baat Gua Bouh
Ti Da Seut Na

if you don't have these or don't understand what they are, you are not doing CMA

Each system or tradition has different ways of doign these, but they define Chinese Martial Art

[Judge Pen]

what you do does not resemble fukien white crane...you're material does not contain tun, tow, fow, chum. :rolleyes:

You're right, our white crane does not resemble fukien white crane. Its obviously not fukien white crane. But our Sanjie form does resemble fukien white crane.

I don't have the answers to lineage and I don't pretend to know more than I do. I think SD is a blend of CMA and Indonesian "gumbo" mixed with the flair of Americans learning a doing the forms the way they see fit and that flavor being passed down from student to student. I believe that the orgins are CMA, but its evolved into its own thing entirely. I don't think that's a bad thing as all CMA evolved from something else. If it doesn't evolve then it is nothing more than a stagnant historical picture of a martial art from a specific time in history (which has its own benefits and detriments).

SD is effective and if you don't get caught up in arguing over non-verifiable history, its as effective as any other TMA.

I do resent the comparisions to CMD--I've read the book "Herding the Moo" and any comparision to that cult is patently unfair.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Tin Yan Deih Sam Moon Hoi Baai Faat
Sae Moon Faat
Luk Moon Faat
saam Hop
Luk Hop
Lin Wan
Sahp Sae kiuh
Nin Kiuh
Jaat Kiuh
Jih Wu Bouh
Chat Sing Bouh
Baat Gua Bouh
Ti Da Seut Na

if you don't have these or don't understand what they are, you are not doing CMA

Each system or tradition has different ways of doign these, but they define Chinese Martial Art

Reply]
Could you state these in English for the Non Chinese speakers?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I do resent the comparisions to CMD--I've read the book "Herding the Moo" and any comparision to that cult is patently unfair.

Reply]
Ok, maybe that one was over the top, I apologize. It's just every time I see Shaolin Do guys do forms, they so remind me of CMD/OYD guys doing forms. Both have that same mindless regurgitation of bad posture, similar horrible mechanics, and similar flavor of unbalanced motion.

[sean_stonehart]

Sean, your post makes me sincerely curious: where is the list or bible of things that one's art must have/do in order to be considered a 'true' CMA? Do you have to believe a certain history? I know that not all styles' versions of history agree (remember the recent 'only truly authentic Shaolin' thread?), so which one is the right version that provides membership in the club?

I'm thinking beyond just the very tired SD discussion but my curiosity is obviously based in this discussion, because I've seen people from 'accepted' CMAs, on this forum or in PM, say things like 'well, SD produces people who can fight, but it's not CMA', or 'SD's pressure point strikers are excellent, but it's not CMA', or even, occasionally, posted here, 'It does look like a CMA.'

The folks who post the last one are admittedly few and far between, but it has happened, from people who aren't SD. So there are some non-SD CMAers who are willing to give SD some kind of benefit of the doubt from a pure forms perspective, but the majority clearly disagrees.

This disagreement brings me back to the question - what's the magical list of things you must have/do to be CMA?

I'd like some real meat with this answer, please. And if there are 10 defining characteristics of CMA and your art only has nine, is it no longer a 'real' CMA? Where do you draw the line?

Again, not specific to Shaolin-Do. All the witty SD pot-shots all you flamers out there just cleverly thought of have already been taken at least 10 times each. Don't be boring.

Consider the breadth of CMA with the answer, please.

DPL... just saw the post.

Sifu Ross's post pretty much nails it, but check your email tonight. I'm at work now & have an event to attend this afternoon for my school. I'll hit you tonight with more info/details.

[jit fu]

judge,

i have seen sd's version of sam chien performed by different ranks and schools. it lacks the tun, tow, fow, chum. sam chien is a hakka set and must comply with these 4 elements. that what gives it life and power. no one denies sd produces good fighters, most styles do. however like i posted earlier, every style has there own way of emitting power, footwork, ect. one can't simply say ok, i learned hua fist, now i learned tiger crane and play them the same way. unless one is into just learning the shell of the system. no ill will intended.:p

[lkfmdc]

I don't have the answers to lineage and I don't pretend to know more than I do.



Judge Pen, you seem like a reasonable person, and I have no objection to anything you wrote. (I just snipped so people know who I am responding to)

Listen, if someone wanted to combine southern mantis with Taekwondo (to pick a strange example of mixing stuff), Said "this is John Doe's new style" and was happy with it MORE POWER TO THEM

If, on the other hand, they called that creation "Choy Lay Fut" then you are gonna have a lot of people taking him to task

If he says the Taekwondo taegeuk forms he is doing are really ancient Ba Gua forms that everyone else has forgotten, well, some crap is gonna hit the rotary oscillator

If he gets a local sign company to put up a tin sign that says "Kansas City has voted John Doe the best martial artist in the universe".... I think you get the jist

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

If someone sells you a Diamond, but delivers a Cubic Zirconium, I think you'd be ****ed about paying top dollar for a real Diamond, wouldn't you?

[CFT]

Tin Yan Deih Sam Moon Hoi Baai Faat
Sae Moon Faat
Luk Moon Faat
saam Hop
Luk Hop
Lin Wan
Sahp Sae kiuh
Nin Kiuh
Jaat Kiuh
Jih Wu Bouh
Chat Sing Bouh
Baat Gua Bouh
Ti Da Seut NaJust trying to guess from the romanization:

Heaven, Man, Earth 3-Gate Opening ??? Method
4-Gates theory/method
6-Gates theory/method
3 Harmonies
6 Harmonies
Chain/repeating
14 Bridges
??? Bridge(s)
??? Bridge(s)
Self-protecting(?) footwork
7-Star footwork
Bagua footwork
Kick, Punch, Wrestle, Seize (found one of his old posts)

[lkfmdc]

Heaven, Man, Earth 3-Gate Open SHUT Method
4-Gates theory/method
6-Gates theory/method
3 Harmonies
6 Harmonies
Chain/repeating
14 Bridges
ADHERING Bridge(s)
DESTROYING Bridge(s)
MERIDIAN footwork
7-Star footwork
Bagua footwork
Kick, Punch, Wrestle, Seize

more or less

[CFT]

I can't figure out how "Jih Wu" = meridian?

[lkfmdc]

short notice, so I just grabbed the nearest dictionary.... look toward teh bottom

[Black Jack II]

There was a book called "Herding the Moo"?

Where did I miss this?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just one question maybe some of the SD old timers can answer for me and all.
Why do the certificates you receive after a belt test say Sin The Karate Club.

This is a toughie..........

Oh, yeah. His school in Lexington was called the Sin The Karate club.....

Phew.

I nearly broke a sweat on that one.

[yutyeesam]

There was a book called "Herding the Moo"?

Where did I miss this?

Here's a sampling of the book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PqYjr970lR4C&dq=herding+the+moo&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=ZflbG1KZyY&sig=pMEn3oxWarxPrOXEbcJwWeWn9h0#PPP1,M1

[lkfmdc]

Sin, The Karate club.....



Well, he's got a sense of humor :rolleyes:

as I just posted in Shaolin Do thread #7329, I notice you want to quickly try and discredit any ex student as "jaded"? Well, accusations were made, ie that direct questions were put to high rankign instructors and to Sin himself that were never answered. Are you calling him a liar?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Herding the Moo has been out for a while now. Infact I have it on the highest authority that the revised edition is coming out soon as well. I may even have a small contribution to the book.

[sanjuro_ronin]

" can you imagine, how much I love you".."moo moo moo moo...

It makes beef sing.

[lkfmdc]

I have a video tape called "Hear her go OO"... but it has nothing to do with martial arts :D

[Judge Pen]

one can't simply say ok, i learned hua fist, now i learned tiger crane and play them the same way. unless one is into just learning the shell of the system. no ill will intended.:p


I agree. They are not taught to be played the same way in SD. Unfortunately, a lot of people gloss over this point in learning the forms and never get the feel for the difference. I can't even say that I do, but I'm still working on it. I have seen people that can and do, but all too often they are too busy practicing than to care to post a video of themselves doing forms.

[Judge Pen]

I have a video tape called "Hear her go OO"... but it has nothing to do with martial arts :D

LOL.

This thread really should be merged with the mega-thread. We don't want this one growing like kudzu over here.

[lkfmdc]

no matter what, it at least will be more entertaining than "An Epic of Internet-challenge Stupidity"

[tattooedmonk]

what you do does not resemble fukien white crane...you're material does not contain tun, tow, fow, chum. :rolleyes:not what I said

[tattooedmonk]

Heaven, Man, Earth 3-Gate Open SHUT Method
4-Gates theory/method
6-Gates theory/method
3 Harmonies
6 Harmonies
Chain/repeating
14 Bridges
ADHERING Bridge(s)
DESTROYING Bridge(s)
MERIDIAN footwork
7-Star footwork
Bagua footwork
Kick, Punch, Wrestle, Seize

more or lessyes, we do learn these things, but i must admit most people do not follow them.:D

[godzillakungfu]

yes, we do learn these things, but i must admit most people do not follow them.:D

He's right. Yet, what you will see is most tend to branch out or are rogues.....!!!!!

They didn't learn it on the CSC side.

[tattooedmonk]

He's right. Yet, what you will see is most tend to branch out or are rogues.....!!!!!

They didn't learn it on the CSC side. ;) Hey Man , have not seen you around here in a while.what up?? How is your training going??

[sean_stonehart]

yes, we do learn these things, but i must admit most people do not follow them.:D

Really???

Then please describe for us something easy...

6 Harmonies
Chain/repeating
14 Bridges

and in the context of where you learned them, what you were initially instructed to begin training these theories, etc...

Please... we're all waiting.

[sean_stonehart]

not what I said


You (TTM) said


From what I have seen from the Fukien province forms( mostly white crane precursor to Karate) that are still taught in China they look a great deal like what we do.


He (jit fu) said


what you do does not resemble fukien white crane...you're material does not contain tun, tow, fow, chum.


So didn't you say that?

He was pointing out how what SD calls white crane doesn't resemble Fukienese White Crane by any definition of what makes White Crane from Fukien what it is.

Don't say Long Arm White Crane either... Sifu Ross & others here already have you there.


So "resemble" isn't a reasonable transliteration for "look a great deal like"??

[sean_stonehart]

He's right. Yet, what you will see is most tend to branch out or are rogues.....!!!!!

They didn't learn it on the CSC side.

Well at least they're trying to learn it!!!! :eek:

[Shaolin Wookie]

SD folks think TCMA and MMA are crap.



Just for the record, I think MMA is sweet stuff.

Just for the record, I think about 50 % of TCMA is crap. Conversely, I think wushu's pretty cool (bring it on, haters, I don't care...LOL). They're not so overly pompous and pretentious. Unfortunately, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between 50% of wushu and TCMA. Personally, I think most TCMA guys are a little too arrogant for my blood. So much---we do it like this, the BEST way, unlike those other guys. Go on and tell me that I don't have the eye for it. I've walked into at least 6 TCMA styles (gotten the same pitch from each of them on their invincible style), and spent the past 2 years cross-training in two, before I ditched both of them for cross-training in capoeira (which is far more effective, IMO:o[doesn't say much for TCMA, or says a lot for that mestre]). I actually enjoyed some of the wushu at my Longfist school (which also taught traditional sets many of you practice), more than the traditional kungfu taught at "Traditional" schools. I knew, when I stepped on the Longfist floor, I was doing things differently at SD than I was at the Longfist school. There are merits in both methods, and they're really not that different. But they certainly do look different, I'd say. I can see why SD does things in a different way, and why the Longfist school did things in their way. Is SD CMA? Somewhat. Is Longfist CMA? Yeah, according to this audience. But Longfist wouldn't prep you for a fight, unfortunately. And it was taught in the traditional manner, only without much sparring (which, as I seem to pick up from people on here, might actually be the traditional manner).......:(. Plus, the movements were unrealistic for a quick fight. In all my tCMA experience (that is, Non-SD, as I don't really consider it TCMA, but more of a cross-cultural hybrid thingy), I was never taught a combo that wasn't in the forms. I wasn't taught how to move around an opponent using angles, how to move my head, how to use my bow stances as knee-traps (which my friend [6 years of Longfist]} had never even considered/or been taught, how to attack in combinations that made use of pressure points in a realistic way, and more imporantly---I was never hit in such a way that I fell to the floor with no wind in my lungs. Part of fighting is learning how to take hard hits and get back up, and most TCMA styles won't provide that environment. I've gone bare knuckle with black belts. I know of a handful of kung fu schools that won't even let you spar without headgear and body protectors....lol......

Granted, it's not geared towards turning out pro fighters, and it shouldn't be. But it does test how much you're willing or able to handle. And I breezed through almost every other kung fu school's intros. They did stretch a little more, and I think one of the things that marks a difference between most CMA schools and SD is the limberness of the students. But I know of TKD schools that go harder than most TCMA schools. Let's face it.....many of you are lumped into that category (and if any of you know me, you know I mean, particularly, tai chi guys.....LOL).:o. I know you won't like what I've said, so flame on. But I've spent as much time in TCMA as I have in SD. I don't have any obligation to SD other than what I'm willing to give it, and I tout it as better in my travels than the others I've encountered. It's compare and contrast. BTW, there are probably quite a few fantastic schools I didn't visit in Atlanta. I know of a few, by rep, but were outside my traveling range.

SD's also the only school where I've seen someone execute an arm break on a quick jab (me jabbing [quick, too], a 3rd degree defending/attacking) in a free sparring session. The only reason my arm didn't get broken was he did it lightly---but I felt it, man. So much for unrealistic maneuvers.....:rolleyes:

Also, there are better fighters at my capoeira school than in 90% of the kung fu schools in the area (the remaining 10% of said schools are actually all Shaolin-Do schools, LOL.........;)). Funny, but it's probably true.......:o

Anyways.....who cares? You don't like GM The. You don't believe his stories. I don't really believe many of the stories. So maybe performances of the forms look like crap (they don't, but the internet versions do). Even then, most performances aren't as pretty as many TCMA performances. But I've never had a class that ever, for a second, put focus on the "grace" of a maneuver, the angle of the hand, etc. If I ask questions based on those criterion for a form, I generally get a good answer: "How far do you draw that hand back for a block? As far as necessary, and no further. When I'm doing this crane slap (kind of like a ***** slap), how high and at what angle do I strike him in the eye? Well, how tall is he? At what angle do you kick to get to the midsection, ideally such and such? Nobody's gonna give it to you, dude, so you do what you have to and use what angle you can."

Really, a roundhouse is a roundhouse is a roundhouse. A straight punch is a straight punch is a straight punch. Your straight punch might be from a widely respected traditional school, but I'm willing to bet 10:1 that it looks like my straight punch. I bet it looks like a TKD straight punch. Hell, I'll even bet it looks like a karate straight punch. Getting the idea?:D

Funny that guys like LKFDMC spend so much time ripping on TCMA's unrealistic approach to fighting and all the "bunny foo foo" prettiness and lace, then rip on karate-like, hard line punching, linear movement, and snap.


L O Friggin' L.


Train what you like, don't train what you don't, and rip on everyone else.:D

BTW....some of your masters don't put out impressive videos either.

Say, like, I took this 1:20 seconds to be representation of all of Lama Pai's training, and the Sifu's fighting prowess:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfGwYkPp5p8

Well, it looks slow. It's too idealistic. Wait, why are you pushing or hitting his chest instead of knocking him the F*** out? Why isn't the other guy throwing combinations? What would you do if he threw a punch and a kick at the same time? Wouldn't you get creamed?

No doubt, this teacher gets a lot of respect. He has a lot of students. He's probably a fantastic fighter. But if all you had to represent you was this 1:20 seconds, you'd get an ass-ripping from everyone on here.....LOL.

I was doing the same stuff as a blue belt. Was I doing TCMA, or Lama pai? No, I was sweeping.

[jit fu]

But our Sanjie form does resemble fukien white crane.

but were you taught tun tow fow chum? these are not easy and would take years to learn. if you aren't taught this then what are you doing in its place?

[Shaolin Wookie]

no matter what, it at least will be more entertaining than "An Epic of Internet-challenge Stupidity"

Funny, I was thinking we ought to merge this thread with that one.

[sean_stonehart]

Really, a roundhouse is a roundhouse is a roundhouse. A straight punch is a straight punch is a straight punch. Your straight punch might be from a widely respected traditional school, but I'm willing to bet 10:1 that it looks like my straight punch. I bet it looks like a TKD straight punch. Hell, I'll even bet it looks like a karate straight punch. Getting the idea?:D



But a roundhouse isn't a roundhouse & a straight punch isn't a straight punch. That's what's missing... the foundational training with energies & techniques.

For example... in SD mantis there's a thing called (at least it was when I was there) a "box punch".

What's the idea?
What's the energy?
What's the proper execution?

In CLF it has a different name than Mantis because it has different ideas/energy/executions.

It's not all the same... it's not "just a roundhouse".

Just like the "San Njie" form has no tun, to, fo, chum as was pointed out earlier. Go watch a video of a Fukienese White Crane or Ngo Cho player & see if you see the differences. If you do, understanding of what we're talking about is just ahead. If not... bummer but keep throwing that roundhouse.

[godzillakungfu]

Well at least they're trying to learn it!!!! :eek:

My implication is it is imported not originating from SD.

[Shaolin Wookie]

But a roundhouse isn't a roundhouse & a straight punch isn't a straight punch. That's what's missing... the foundational training with energies & techniques.

For example... in SD mantis there's a thing called (at least it was when I was there) a "box punch".

What's the idea?
What's the energy?
What's the proper execution?

In CLF it has a different name than Mantis because it has different ideas/energy/executions.

It's not all the same... it's not "just a roundhouse".

Just like the "San Njie" form has no tun, to, fo, chum as was pointed out earlier. Go watch a video of a Fukienese White Crane or Ngo Cho player & see if you see the differences. If you do, understanding of what we're talking about is just ahead. If not... bummer but keep throwing that roundhouse.

Box punch.

Throw a straight punch, rotating the knuckle to the inside, catching someone in the face (preferably temple). Use the hips to translate power, which get their drive from the jade ring (by pushing off the back leg, using the instep [exactly like a boxer would]). This punch reminds me almost exactly of what that NHB fighter at my capoeira school taught me when he was teaching me a right overhand [he taught BJJ/MMA in a back corner of the school]. Not exactly the same, but it was actually the very technique I thought at the moment, because it felt the same. But it generally travels on a straighter line, and the rotation of the fist adds a little bit of an inside hooking power. Alternately, plant your foot like you would if you were throwing a round kick in MT, dropping your weight, then drive up one knee for momentum/trapping/protection/possible kick while throwing the same punch with your body weight behind it (I contract against the motion of the knee to get maximum torque while maintaining root and balance, so you can get your hip into it--although the onese in White Monkey STP are done with the same leg, same arm, which makes it more difficult). I'm not great at them, but I do throw those box punches quite a lot, and they do connect, and they do hurt.

All the rest is needless stuff. You don't need to have a name for all the hippy energies in the universe and all the glorious dandelion harmonies in order to know that when I throw a punch I need to hit hard, and try to smash a nose, jaw, temple, or chin. But then I don't really like any of the internal arts very much, and I kind of get a laugh out of the "heavenly passages of chi" and all that stuff. Sure, I might just be immature in my study. But I really do think much of the thoery is really just some natural stuff, overanalyzed and analized to the point that it becomes a load of angelic crap.

[bodhi warrior]

Just for the record, I think MMA is sweet stuff.

Just for the record, I think about 50 % of TCMA is crap. Conversely, I think wushu's pretty cool (bring it on, haters, I don't care...LOL). They're not so overly pompous and pretentious. Unfortunately, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between 50% of wushu and TCMA. Personally, I think most TCMA guys are a little too arrogant for my blood. So much---we do it like this, the BEST way, unlike those other guys. Go on and tell me that I don't have the eye for it. I've walked into at least 6 TCMA styles (gotten the same pitch from each of them on their invincible style), and spent the past 2 years cross-training in two, before I ditched both of them for cross-training in capoeira (which is far more effective, IMO:o[doesn't say much for TCMA, or says a lot for that mestre]). I actually enjoyed some of the wushu at my Longfist school (which also taught traditional sets many of you practice), more than the traditional kungfu taught at "Traditional" schools. I knew, when I stepped on the Longfist floor, I was doing things differently at SD than I was at the Longfist school. There are merits in both methods, and they're really not that different. But they certainly do look different, I'd say. I can see why SD does things in a different way, and why the Longfist school did things in their way. Is SD CMA? Somewhat. Is Longfist CMA? Yeah, according to this audience. But Longfist wouldn't prep you for a fight, unfortunately. And it was taught in the traditional manner, only without much sparring (which, as I seem to pick up from people on here, might actually be the traditional manner).......:(. Plus, the movements were unrealistic for a quick fight. In all my tCMA experience (that is, Non-SD, as I don't really consider it TCMA, but more of a cross-cultural hybrid thingy), I was never taught a combo that wasn't in the forms. I wasn't taught how to move around an opponent using angles, how to move my head, how to use my bow stances as knee-traps (which my friend [6 years of Longfist]} had never even considered/or been taught, how to attack in combinations that made use of pressure points in a realistic way, and more imporantly---I was never hit in such a way that I fell to the floor with no wind in my lungs. Part of fighting is learning how to take hard hits and get back up, and most TCMA styles won't provide that environment. I've gone bare knuckle with black belts. I know of a handful of kung fu schools that won't even let you spar without headgear and body protectors....lol......

Granted, it's not geared towards turning out pro fighters, and it shouldn't be. But it does test how much you're willing or able to handle. And I breezed through almost every other kung fu school's intros. They did stretch a little more, and I think one of the things that marks a difference between most CMA schools and SD is the limberness of the students. But I know of TKD schools that go harder than most TCMA schools. Let's face it.....many of you are lumped into that category (and if any of you know me, you know I mean, particularly, tai chi guys.....LOL).:o. I know you won't like what I've said, so flame on. But I've spent as much time in TCMA as I have in SD. I don't have any obligation to SD other than what I'm willing to give it, and I tout it as better in my travels than the others I've encountered. It's compare and contrast. BTW, there are probably quite a few fantastic schools I didn't visit in Atlanta. I know of a few, by rep, but were outside my traveling range.

SD's also the only school where I've seen someone execute an arm break on a quick jab (me jabbing [quick, too], a 3rd degree defending/attacking) in a free sparring session. The only reason my arm didn't get broken was he did it lightly---but I felt it, man. So much for unrealistic maneuvers.....:rolleyes:

Also, there are better fighters at my capoeira school than in 90% of the kung fu schools in the area (the remaining 10% of said schools are actually all Shaolin-Do schools, LOL.........;)). Funny, but it's probably true.......:o

Anyways.....who cares? You don't like GM The. You don't believe his stories. I don't really believe many of the stories. So maybe performances of the forms look like crap (they don't, but the internet versions do). Even then, most performances aren't as pretty as many TCMA performances. But I've never had a class that ever, for a second, put focus on the "grace" of a maneuver, the angle of the hand, etc. If I ask questions based on those criterion for a form, I generally get a good answer: "How far do you draw that hand back for a block? As far as necessary, and no further. When I'm doing this crane slap (kind of like a ***** slap), how high and at what angle do I strike him in the eye? Well, how tall is he? At what angle do you kick to get to the midsection, ideally such and such? Nobody's gonna give it to you, dude, so you do what you have to and use what angle you can."

Really, a roundhouse is a roundhouse is a roundhouse. A straight punch is a straight punch is a straight punch. Your straight punch might be from a widely respected traditional school, but I'm willing to bet 10:1 that it looks like my straight punch. I bet it looks like a TKD straight punch. Hell, I'll even bet it looks like a karate straight punch. Getting the idea?:D

Funny that guys like LKFDMC spend so much time ripping on TCMA's unrealistic approach to fighting and all the "bunny foo foo" prettiness and lace, then rip on karate-like, hard line punching, linear movement, and snap.


L O Friggin' L.


Train what you like, don't train what you don't, and rip on everyone else.:D

BTW....some of your masters don't put out impressive videos either.

Say, like, I took this 1:20 seconds to be representation of all of Lama Pai's training, and the Sifu's fighting prowess:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfGwYkPp5p8

Well, it looks slow. It's too idealistic. Wait, why are you pushing or hitting his chest instead of knocking him the F*** out? Why isn't the other guy throwing combinations? What would you do if he threw a punch and a kick at the same time? Wouldn't you get creamed?

No doubt, this teacher gets a lot of respect. He has a lot of students. He's probably a fantastic fighter. But if all you had to represent you was this 1:20 seconds, you'd get an ass-ripping from everyone on here.....LOL.

I was doing the same stuff as a blue belt. Was I doing TCMA, or Lama pai? No, I was sweeping.

I really like the way you speak it bro!:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Let me ask you something Sean. Do you think karate, TaeKwanDo, Capoeira, and say, Shaolin-Do miss out and throw inferior roundhouses because they don't have foundational training in the occult Chinese harmonies? My capoeira teacher taught structure and hip flexibility in the roundhouse. That was all there was to it. And he threw a mean roundhouse. I was taught a roundhouse when I was younger by a TKD chick, and it was structure and rotation. In Shaolin-Do, pretty much the same as all the others. Understanding the harmonies might be a part of the "art", but it's not the actual roundhouse. I'm willing to bet your roundhouse is probably better than mine, but it's due to the fact you've thrown it more, not because you understand the harmonies better than I.

I can paint and draw like a mofo, and I've had schooling all the way through a BA in them. But there are people that are 1,000 times better than I at painting and drawing, and it's not because they have names for all the techniques, wrist flicks, etc. I have those names, and I understand color theory pretty well. But hell, they're better because they do it more often than I.

[lkfmdc]

Funny that guys like LKFDMC spend so much time ripping on TCMA's unrealistic approach to fighting and all the "bunny foo foo" prettiness and lace, then rip on karate-like, hard line punching, linear movement, and snap.

L O Friggin' L.

Train what you like, don't train what you don't, and rip on everyone else.:D

BTW....some of your masters don't put out impressive videos either.

Say, like, I took this 1:20 seconds to be representation of all of Lama Pai's training, and the Sifu's fighting prowess:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfGwYkPp5p8



well, let's see, other than the facts that

1. that clip isn't me
2. that clip isn't my school
3. that clip isn't any of my students

other than that, you really got me there :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

I can paint and draw like a mofo, and I've had schooling all the way through a BA in them. But there are people that are 1,000 times better than I at painting and drawing, and it's not because they have names for all the techniques, wrist flicks, etc. I have those names, and I understand color theory pretty well. But hell, they're better because they do it more often than I.
__________________
people who can paint and draw better than others do so because there is a connection from eyes, to brain, to hand,like visualization that people who cannot draw are lacking. Somewhere along the line, the image is lost, andwhere there might be a specific shape of form, becomes something completely different.
It would seem that Shaolin-Do forms might be suffering from the same dilemma.
Their forms lack any movement that can be considered TCMA, yet the practitioners seem to think it looks and functions exactly like TCMA.
Watching bad kempo schools do what they think are Gung-Fu moves, techniques and forms, while their structure, power generation, application and theories say otherwise is prime example. BTW-I am referring to kempo hybrids such as Vilari and their offshoots. Even when they are taught forms from "Shaolin Monks," they still turn it into drek.
It's like tone deaf, rhythm lacking karaoke singers, or me dancing. It just hurts to watch.
BTW-I also draw and paint like a mofo, studied in SVA and Parsons, but I was better walking into art school than most who had way more art education and practice. Some people have it others never will.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I can paint and draw like a mofo, and I've had schooling all the way through a BA in them. But there are people that are 1,000 times better than I at painting and drawing, and it's not because they have names for all the techniques, wrist flicks, etc. I have those names, and I understand color theory pretty well. But hell, they're better because they do it more often than I.
__________________
people who can paint and draw better than others do so because there is a connection from eyes, to brain, to hand,like visualization that people who cannot draw are lacking. Somewhere along the line, the image is lost, andwhere there might be a specific shape of form, becomes something completely different.
It would seem that Shaolin-Do forms might be suffering from the same dilemma.
Their forms lack any movement that can be considered TCMA, yet the practitioners seem to think it looks and functions exactly like TCMA.
Watching bad kempo schools do what they think are Gung-Fu moves, techniques and forms, while their structure, power generation, application and theories say otherwise is prime example. BTW-I am referring to kempo hybrids such as Vilari and their offshoots. Even when they are taught forms from "Shaolin Monks," they still turn it into drek.
It's like tone deaf, rhythm lacking karaoke singers, or me dancing. It just hurts to watch.
BTW-I also draw and paint like a mofo, studied in SVA and Parsons, but I was better walking into art school than most who had way more art education and practice. Some people have it others never will.

I guess this is just where my opinion differs from theirs. I don't think they look the same way, but their function is the same (but then, most people haven't looked around and tried other things). Seriously, though: is there a difference between Hung Gar and Northern Praying Mantis, in their function and in their form? Yes, very noticeably...in the latter that is. As for function: it's still grappling, striking, dodging. That's the martial side. As for the art---that changes from school to school. As for forms......I can use the techs in my forms (so far, mine are pretty simple compared to higher level stuff) just fine, so they're sound for what they are. And some people would say some of my forms look quite excellent. And I'd say most of them are probably pretty bad.:D

SD is SD. I know some SD guys want to say it's true authentic Shaolin. But I honestly don't believe in any such thing. There is no true authentic Shaolin (although this would make for bad marketing of any Shaolin-based art), except for RD's Ancestor's Fist, passed down untouched and unmodified from Zhao Kuanyin.

Okay, I admit it. Now I'm just trolling.........LOL.

BTW, our forms don't look as bad as Villari forms. Come on........and if someone posts that video in rebuttal of the SD brown belts doing first-day renditions of Jingang fu hu ch'uan to "Dancing Queen", I think I'll kill myself on general principle.

[CFT]

short notice, so I just grabbed the nearest dictionary.... look toward the bottomCheers. I was thinking meridians as in TCM, but this is meridian as in lines of longitude (North-South lines). In Cantonese it sounds like "jee ng" - I got thrown off by the romanization.

OT: In Wing Chun circles, the centreline is called "jee ng sin".

[DPL]

Thanks for the responses to my question. Lots of info since last night so I'm going to try to digest it then see if I have further questions.

[lkfmdc]

Cheers. I was thinking meridians as in TCM, but this is meridian as in lines of longitude (North-South lines). In Cantonese it sounds like "jee ng" - I got thrown off by the romanization.

OT: In Wing Chun circles, the centreline is called "jee ng sin".

I often do stuff in Toisanese, sorry

[TenTigers]

wow! Is that you? I take back all I've said. You ARE good.
where do ya want the flowers sent?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R1dkR7c7rHQ

[brucereiter]

Their forms lack any movement that can be considered TCMA, yet the practitioners seem to think it looks and functions exactly like TCMA.



hello,

if you are talking about shaolin do when you say "their" with the above comment i think your generalization might be wrong.

http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter
here are some examples of my limited understanding of shaolin do i have posted these links many times before.

i have not heard many specific comments as to why my expression of form "lack any movement that can be considered tcma"

you will see examples of tai chi chuan, pakua chang and hsing i chuan as well as some push hands, stance training and a few other forms etc ...

let me know specifics of why it is not "tcma".

each time i ask these type of questions in response to that kind of comment the nay sayers do not say anything or the say something about "flavor" and "karate"

best,

bruce

p.s. to all the nay sayers while some of you do in fact share your identity i commend you for at least that.
the anonymity of some posters makes its hard to understand what some people base their opinions on

it is hard to respect people who speak negative about others so openly.
is it practical first hand knowledge some of you are spreading?
would you speak so disrespectfully to another person face to face?

i am sure i will get only a few if any comments about why what i presented is not in the opinion of several people here tcma. i am also sure that very few if any other people in this debate will put their stuff out their for people to see.

carry on :-)

[sean_stonehart]

My implication is it is imported not originating from SD.

Then the fact is it was lost from SD.

[sean_stonehart]

Let me ask you something Sean. Do you think karate, TaeKwanDo, Capoeira, and say, Shaolin-Do miss out and throw inferior roundhouses because they don't have foundational training in the occult Chinese
harmonies?

Well no because I was talking hands, not feet. But compare the roundhouse kick of TKD against MT & you'll see what I'm talking about. The TKD is specific to TKD, MT to MT. IF one cross pollenates with the other without the basic foundation for it but says to the world "It's just a roundhouse kick" then the person has missed the whole thing.



I can paint and draw like a mofo, and I've had schooling all the way through a BA in them. But there are people that are 1,000 times better than I at painting and drawing, and it's not because they have names for all the techniques, wrist flicks, etc. I have those names, and I understand color theory pretty well. But hell, they're better because they do it more often than I.

Dude that's great but I can't write my name in a straight line... doesn't mean I can declare myself a calligrapher just because I write the same letters as a calligrapher.

[TenTigers]

The Hsing -Yi looks like it was learned from a James McNiel tape. it says you are just beginning, so that is the reason I suspect you are disconnected between your stance and your back (yeu-ma) and are chest-heavy.
The Tai-Chi is also disconnected. You are not aligned,the hands are not connected to the body, one hand stops and just sits there while the other is doing, I don't know what...you completely lost all connection during your transitions, no awareness of dan-tien,example-single whip-you are showing zero expansion,shoullder strike into white crane spreads his wings, no rooting,
it looks as if it were learned from a tape. I'm not saying you learned from a tape, but maybe whoever taught you did. When a teacher is teaching Hsing-Yi, Tai-Chi, or any TCMA for that matter, they should be spending alot of time making sure that the underlying structure is correct before teaching a bunch of moves and forms. Otherwise you are building a house on sand.
I actually liked the striking drills. If you could get the same connection that you have with those into your forms, you will be onto something.

[sha0lin1]

This is a toughie..........

Oh, yeah. His school in Lexington was called the Sin The Karate club.....

Phew.

I nearly broke a sweat on that one.

So then would it be safe to assume that since he called his school a karate club then surely this answers everyones question as to whether this is karate or kung fu. Seems like you have just solved this whole question.

[godzillakungfu]

Yes, this really needs to be merged or closed. It is slowly heading to stuff answered in the other thread.

The basic explanation is everyone knew Karate. So, to get people in you had to advertise as Karate back in the day. Kung Fu and Shaolin were not known or popular at the time.

This is the explanation I was told.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Well no because I was talking hands, not feet. But compare the roundhouse kick of TKD against MT & you'll see what I'm talking about. The TKD is specific to TKD, MT to MT. IF one cross pollenates with the other without the basic foundation for it but says to the world "It's just a roundhouse kick" then the person has missed the whole thing.



There was a reason I left that one out. It's a completely different kick. The other 3 are the exact same.



Dude that's great but I can't write my name in a straight line... doesn't mean I can declare myself a calligrapher just because I write the same letters as a calligrapher.

Sure you can. But some people will pay more to get the same thing, b/c the other guy has a piece of paper, which someone else wrote, that says "Hey, man. You're a calligrapher, for sure."

[Shaolin Wookie]

So then would it be safe to assume that since he called his school a karate club then surely this answers everyones question as to whether this is karate or kung fu. Seems like you have just solved this whole question.

Not really. He called it karate back in the 60's, before "kung fu" became the official term for chinese martial arts in america. He called it karate because that's what martial arts were here, by name, for the most part. Everyone knew what karate was. Fewer knew what Shaolin was. Remember, most people only know of Shaolin b/c of David Carradine. BTW, in Indonesia, his school (GGM Ie Chang Ming's school, to be more precise) was called Chung Yen Shaolin, meaning something like "Central Shaolin". No karate there. So the karate was definitely a marketing thing, so he could make it identifiable as a martial art. It wasn't called Shaolin-Do. That was what GM The named it when he became its inheritor, for the most part.

[Shaolin Wookie]

wow! Is that you? I take back all I've said. You ARE good.
where do ya want the flowers sent?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R1dkR7c7rHQ

Different vid, not Shaolin Do....LOL. But I can't believe another dude filmed himself to Dancing Queen........

And no...I've never videotaped myself and put it on the net. Not really interested in it.

[brucereiter]

The Hsing -Yi looks like it was learned from a James McNiel tape. it says you are just beginning, so that is the reason I suspect you are disconnected between your stance and your back (yeu-ma) and are chest-heavy.


thanks for the observations regarding my expression of hsingi ... i did not learn it from a tape, i learned it from a few different people in our system :-) but i am very much a beginner with hsingi chuan.

do you like james mcneil?



The Tai-Chi is also disconnected. You are not aligned,the hands are not connected to the body, one hand stops and just sits there while the other is doing, I don't know what...you completely lost all connection during your transitions, no awareness of dan-tien,example-single whip-you are showing zero expansion,shoulder strike into white crane spreads his wings, no rooting,


interesting observations but i disagree with the way you see that ... but that is fine, i am just trying to show that our art does in fact have some "tcma" "flavor" and not that i am a expert or anything, i am just a student who practices hard and will share his knowledge with anyone ... ... :-)
sometimes subtle things are hard to see so maybe you are missing some possibilities ...



it looks as if it were learned from a tape. I'm not saying you learned from a tape, but maybe whoever taught you did. :-) my teacher learned it from his teacher ...





When a teacher is teaching Hsing-Yi, Tai-Chi, or any TCMA for that matter, they should be spending alot of time making sure that the underlying structure is correct before teaching a bunch of moves and forms.
Otherwise you are building a house on sand.
i agree! and this is a common problem with students from many systems.




I actually liked the striking drills. If you could get the same connection that you have with those into your forms, you will be onto something.

thanks ... those drills and others like them have been very helpful to me.


i tried to look at your website for some background but i could not find it. do you have a link?

best,

bruce

[Black Jack II]

Seems to me, if you go through all these Shaolin-Do threads, is that maybe at the core, at one time, it was a kuntao system, that has changed for monetary reasons in certain respects for the modern populace.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Seems to me, if you go through all these Shaolin-Do threads, is that maybe at the core, at one time, it was a kuntao system, that has changed for monetary reasons in certain respects for the modern populace.

Reply]
That has allways been my thoughts too. It's certainly not Shaolin, and certainly much of it's history is falsified.

At this point, it's Sin The Do, which is a mish mash of stuff he learned, made up, or took from books.

[TenTigers]

well, if you were to keep the silat/kuntau stuff and call it shaolin-do, there would not be much of a problem with it, as many styles from that area use shaolin, saolim,etc, but when you list a bazillion forms from every which style as well as some that are..um, questionable, then you lose credibility, except as forms collectors. (not to mention history, jo-jo, et al)Hey, I'm certainly not the TCMA police, but sometimes I take issue with the credibilty factor. No biggie, do what ya do.

Wookie-yeah, I knew it wasn't you, but I thought it was funny as sh1t.:D

[TenTigers]

my website is under construction.
my backround? I've studied under some of the best and some of the worst Martial Artists that walked the planet. Hopefully, I've retained the good stuff.
Still workin on it.

[tattooedmonk]

Seems to me, if you go through all these Shaolin-Do threads, is that maybe at the core, at one time, it was a kuntao system, that has changed for monetary reasons in certain respects for the modern populace.

Reply]
That has allways been my thoughts too. It's certainly not Shaolin, and certainly much of it's history is falsified.

At this point, it's Sin The Do, which is a mish mash of stuff he learned, made up, or took from books.Why/how is it not Shaolin??

[brucereiter]

my website is under construction.
my backround? I've studied under some of the best and some of the worst Martial Artists that walked the planet. Hopefully, I've retained the good stuff.
Still workin on it.
Cool I will check back to see your site later.
The best and the worst ... Both can be great ...

What is the core system you practice?

I hope we can cross paths someday, I enjoy meeting with all martial styles and soaking up/exchanging ideas. If you are ever in atlanta please look me up.

Best

Bruce

[tattooedmonk]

What makes this system , that obviously has Shaolin styles taught in it, not considered " Shaolin"??

[bodhi warrior]

Seems to me, if you go through all these Shaolin-Do threads, is that maybe at the core, at one time, it was a kuntao system, that has changed for monetary reasons in certain respects for the modern populace.

I personally think this to. A kuntao system with shaolin roots.

[JCAT]

At first all I did was ask how to get him in the magazine. Then it all started about how it is fake, and how this form is better than this one or that one. About how it was originated and the forms practiced. QUESTION??. Why did you start taking karate,judo,mma, and so on? Because you like the training,fighting skills, origin from where it started and the lessons from where the form came from. So why argue over which is best? They are all great forms in their on right. What you like in one form I may like in another and so on. So, be proud of the martial art you are taking and respect the others. Because when it is all said and done you are doing it because you like it and want to stay in shape.

[Fei Li]

Oh yes, please more of those stupid Shaolin Do threads…

[sanjuro_ronin]

What makes this system , that obviously has Shaolin styles taught in it, not considered " Shaolin"??

Well. first of all, what makes a "shaolin system" one?

[TenTigers]

shaolindoiscool,
no problemo, I always enjoy hooking up with other Martial Artists. If you are ever in the NY area, mi casa,su casa.
As far as my backround, I have been studying various systems for the past thirty years,aquiring several Black Belts along the way-some people collect stamps...
but my maiin focus, for the past twenty years or so has been Siu Lum Hung Kuen (Hung-Ga) and recently (going on three years) KwongSi Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai (Jook Lum Southern Mantis). Studying numerous styles has been both a blessing and a curse however. A blessing, because I was exposed to alot, and can speak with (relative) authority on several systems, and also have an open mind to others' technique and concepts;. The downside is, having met people such as my present Mantis teacher, I realize the difference between studying many different styles, and focusing on one style and training it for many years. My teacher has been training in SPM for over 38 years, and his skill level is awe inspiring.
"Do not mistake the person who claims twenty years of experience, when he actually has two years, ten times."
TT

[bodhitree]

because sasquatch don't really exist.

[Judge Pen]

Yes, this really needs to be merged or closed. It is slowly heading to stuff answered in the other thread.

The basic explanation is everyone knew Karate. So, to get people in you had to advertise as Karate back in the day. Kung Fu and Shaolin were not known or popular at the time.

This is the explanation I was told.

Yep, I've said this many times. In fact, when I went to my first SD class, 18 years ago, it was advertised as karate, but the teacher told us in the first lesson that the origins of the forms were Chinese, that they were taught to him by Sin The' who learned them in Indonesia from his teacher who immagrated from China to Indonesia. The reason it was called "karate" is that it was the generic term for asian martial arts that everyone knows best. Heck, most people I know back in Southwestern Virginia call all martial arts, BJJ, TKD etc. "karoty" :D

[Judge Pen]

Oh yes, please more of those stupid Shaolin Do threads…

I hate to say it, but I agree, here. I'm tired of all the SD threads (even though I can't help but to read and post in them).

[Lamassu]

I hate to say it, but I agree, here. I'm tired of all the SD threads.

Not me, I think they're great! It's this forum's proverbial "which came first the chicken or the egg?" circular nonsense that doesn't get anywhere, but gets everybody all riled up. :D How many times have we all gone over the facts, hearsay, legends, smack talking, mocking, and name calling? Why should that end? If it did, than nobody on this forum would have anything to talk about and it would crumble in obscurity.

SHAOLIN DO BREATHES LIFE INTO THIS FORUM; YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE!!!!!!!

[Baqualin]

Not me, I think they're great! It's this forum's proverbial "which came first the chicken or the egg?" circular nonsense that doesn't get anywhere, but gets everybody all riled up. :D How many times have we all gone over the facts, hearsay, legends, smack talking, mocking, and name calling? Why should that end? If it did, than nobody on this forum would have anything to talk about and it would crumble in obscurity.

SHAOLIN DO BREATHES LIFE INTO THIS FORUM; YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE!!!!!!!

YOUR RIGHT IT'S TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!:eek::);):cool::D:p

[Baqualin]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY KC:D:p
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

hi bhodi, mas and the rest ...

here are a few pictures from that time that were given to me.


The photo is in front of Master Ie's home. Master Sin is in the middle with Master Ie's adopted son and family. sr master grooms on the far right of the photo, Master David Theroff is the guy ****hest to the left. earlier that day they visited Master Sin's parents and his brother Sang's (hiang) home.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/MasterIeshouse001.jpg

demo/banquet that was done in Master Sin's honor.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo001.jpg


copy of the ticket to the demo/banquet that was done in Master Sin's honor.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo-Ticket001.jpg

best,

bruce

What baloney. Come on....you just photoshopped a bunch of asians and white guys in front of the Norcross school. Didn't you know Shaolin-Do is fake and GM Ie Chang Ming didn't exist?:D

[MasterKiller]

Didn't you know Shaolin-Do is fake and GM Ie Chang Ming didn't exist?:D

I know Ie existed. I've seen the pics of him training White Earp's teacher. ;)

[tattooedmonk]

I hate to say it, but I agree, here. I'm tired of all the SD threads (even though I can't help but to read and post in them).I coould not help myself!:D Like Bq These guys are giving FREE advertising.

[tattooedmonk]

Well. first of all, what makes a "shaolin system" one? Goood question . Thanks for your help.:cool:

[Flaca]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY KC:D:p
BQ

Ditto, KC

Pat ;)

[tattooedmonk]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY KC:D:p
BQIt is KC'S birthday?? HAPPY BIRTHDAY KC!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Goood question . Thanks for your help.:cool:

Anytime.:D

All kiding aside, you said
What makes this system , that obviously has Shaolin styles taught in it, not considered " Shaolin"??

So I ask YOU, what "obviously shaolin styles" are you refering too ?

[tattooedmonk]

Anytime.:D

All kiding aside, you said
So I ask YOU, what "obviously shaolin styles" are you refering too ?how about just looking at the lists from a school and you tell me . The list is quite lengthy.:D:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

how about just looking at the lists from a school and you tell me . The list is quite lengthy.:D:cool:

Well, if we are going by that logic, any system that has some remote "shaolin" style in their repetoire can be called a shaolin system.

Case in point, Okinawan Goju.

[tattooedmonk]

Well, if we are going by that logic, any system that has some remote "shaolin" style in their repetoire can be called a shaolin system.

Case in point, Okinawan Goju.Exactly! I believe that Shaolin is more of an idea , a philosophy, and way of life than a set of buildings , forms , clothing , rituals,etc.
Yeah sure it may have been all these things at one time, but we all know that story,. :D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Adam Hsu once wrote that he traveled all throughout China looking for a general definition of Shaolin. He went to many Shaolin schools, and only seemed to find variations of Longfist. The schools he went to that claimed to be Shaolin and didn't teach Longfist generally could not provide him an answer, b/c they were variants of other kung fu styles. He concluded that the majority of chinese kung fu in general predated Shaolin, and many secret societies during the Qing dynasty revamped the Shaolin name, only because they needed a kind of mascot to create a brotherhood for overthrowing the Manchus.

If a Chinese guy couldn't define Shaolin in China, I don't think we're gonna make much progress on a California based webboard.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's a question for the old-timers. If GGM Ie adapted his Central Shaolin school to accommodate Japanese cosmetics in order to throw off anti-Chinese sentiment in Indonesia, why is it that we have sifus and not senseis? At any time, were any Shaolin-Do teachers called sensei?

[tattooedmonk]

Yep, I've said this many times. In fact, when I went to my first SD class, 18 years ago, it was advertised as karate, but the teacher told us in the first lesson that the origins of the forms were Chinese, that they were taught to him by Sin The' who learned them in Indonesia from his teacher who immagrated from China to Indonesia. The reason it was called "karate" is that it was the generic term for asian martial arts that everyone knows best. Heck, most people I know back in Southwestern Virginia call all martial arts, BJJ, TKD etc. "karoty" :DExactly. Karate has been a general term used to describe MA for a very long time. Karate after Gechin Funokoshi got a hold of it just meant "empty hand" But originally meant "China hand."

Karoty , LMAO!! that is just to funny. You Kill me JP.

[tattooedmonk]

Here's a question for the old-timers. If GGM Ie adapted his Central Shaolin school to accommodate Japanese cosmetics in order to throw off anti-Chinese sentiment in Indonesia, why is it that we have sifus and not senseis? At any time, were any Shaolin-Do teachers called sensei?I have heard people refer to their schools a dojos and their teachers sensei in the early years but as more information became available that people started to adopt the chinese terminology instead.I think i have seen it on a few of the websites as well.

I believe it was not until recent years that back east( in some circles) they started calling it KUNG FU.

I also know that on the west coast ,for the most part, just use english terminology.:D

I know it is mostly just refered to as SHAOLIN DO , THE WAY OF SHAOLIN , because it is more than just martialarts ad it really does not matter if you call it Karate or kung fu.

KUNG FU DOES NOT MEAN CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Adam Hsu once wrote that he traveled all throughout China looking for a general definition of Shaolin. He went to many Shaolin schools, and only seemed to find variations of Longfist. The schools he went to that claimed to be Shaolin and didn't teach Longfist generally could not provide him an answer, b/c they were variants of other kung fu styles. He concluded that the majority of chinese kung fu in general predated Shaolin, and many secret societies during the Qing dynasty revamped the Shaolin name, only because they needed a kind of mascot to create a brotherhood for overthrowing the Manchus.

If a Chinese guy couldn't define Shaolin in China, I don't think we're gonna make much progress on a California based webboard.

That was the point I was gonna lead up to, if you can't define what is shaolin how can we say we "do" shaolin or that are system has shaolin styles in it?

[Judge Pen]

KC's B-Day? I'm such a bad friend, I forgot. Happy B-Day KC.

[sean_stonehart]

Exactly. Karate has been a general term used to describe MA for a very long time. Karate after Gechin Funokoshi got a hold of it just meant "empty hand" But originally meant "China hand."

Karoty , LMAO!! that is just to funny. You Kill me JP.

Not really. In Japan it was common to hear such terms as kenpojutsu, dakenjutsu/dakentaijutsu, koshijutsu, koppojutsu, jujutsu, taijutsu, etc... all of those terms are sidebars found in karate or terms used for unarmed striking arts or techniques in Japan.

Gichin Funakoshi called it karate using the character for China in Okinawa & early on in Japan, but to go along with the partyline & political environment, changed it to "open hand".

In Okinawa, it was called... te, kempo, etc...

My Hogan sucks so I'm stopping there & my JMA history is a bit rusty.

[sean_stonehart]

KUNG FU DOES NOT MEAN CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS.

No but it is synonymous for it.

[Lamassu]

Personally, I don't see the point behind it. The Shaolin Temples were like universities for martial arts. Styles were created, introduced and perfected behind those walls, and if your particular martial art has styles and techniques that were traditionally taught in the Shaolin Temples, then that's a claim to Shaolin lineage. Honestly, due to the poor record keeping and the burning of buildings and books (the greatest sin in the world is to destroy a book), accurately claiming lineage to Shaolin is like claiming to be a descendant of Atlantis. :rolleyes: No one can honestly and accurately say that theirs is the living incarnation of Shaolin. Not unless, you agree that every school that has material taught in the Shaolin Temples are also living incarnations of Shaolin.

[bodhi warrior]

Here's a question for the old-timers. If GGM Ie adapted his Central Shaolin school to accommodate Japanese cosmetics in order to throw off anti-Chinese sentiment in Indonesia, why is it that we have sifus and not senseis? At any time, were any Shaolin-Do teachers called sensei?

Back in the 80's when I started we were instructed to call our techers sensei.

[Baqualin]

I know Ie existed. I've seen the pics of him training White Earp's teacher. ;)

You just can't resist.....your like a skeeter & a bug zapper:p
BQ

[Judge Pen]

If a Chinese guy couldn't define Shaolin in China, I don't think we're gonna make much progress on a California based webboard.

LOL! How true! :p

I'm surprised Sal hasn't chimed in on this yet. There are references to the 10 core sets of shaolin (which incidently aren't taught in SD). Anyone know when they came about and when they were first taught in the temple(s)? Were sets that pre-date these "core 10" ever taught in the temple(s)?

[Baqualin]

Here's a question for the old-timers. If GGM Ie adapted his Central Shaolin school to accommodate Japanese cosmetics in order to throw off anti-Chinese sentiment in Indonesia, why is it that we have sifus and not senseis? At any time, were any Shaolin-Do teachers called sensei?

Here, in the early 70's I don't remember being instructed to call a teacher by any specific title other than sir (out of respect) until they reached Master level & the only Masters then were GMSin & M. Hiang.....since M. Sin, M. Hiang & M. Leonard have been my only teachers thats all I've ever used. I teach now and everyone calls me by my first name........that's fine with me.
BQ

[Flaca]

KC's B-Day? I'm such a bad friend, I forgot. Happy B-Day KC.
... and you're close enough to hoist one with him! I'll knock one back in his honor. (like I need an excuse.) :p
or should we do horse stance for 5 minutes? That'd make him happy. :eek:

[Shaolin Wookie]

That was the point I was gonna lead up to, if you can't define what is shaolin how can we say we "do" shaolin or that are system has shaolin styles in it?

Easy. I know I'm revealing some secrets here, but here goes:

We at Shaolin-Do are the remnants of a secret society founded in teh Qing Dynasty, dedicated to the proposition that we ought to thoroughly overthrow the Manchus and restore the brightness and glory of the Ming Dynasty. Granted, the Manchus aren't really in power anymore.....but if they ever buck up and start wild'n out, then you're going to see some fireworks, dude. The reason GGM Ie was in Indonesia? It wasn't b/c he killed some Reds. It was because of all the Manchus.....

He was like James Bond, only asian, and old; and his Q was a Sasquatch.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah, that was it. It's a biotch to park or even get there when it's busy downtown and you've got to drive there for the testing. Plus, the ceiling's too low. Trying to do a staff form there is nerve-wracking, 'cus you're always on the brink of taking down a line of flourescents, showering yourself with glass, paying for new carpet, and generally looking like an ass.:p

[Judge Pen]

He was like James Bond, only asian, and old; and his Q was a Sasquatch.

Shouldn't that be his "M" instead?

[NJM]

That was the point I was gonna lead up to, if you can't define what is shaolin how can we say we "do" shaolin or that are system has shaolin styles in it?

Lineage helps.

[GLW]

seems to me that you are getting sidetracked from the objections and issues people have with Shaolin-do.

There are really two issues here:

(1) the claim that Shaolin-Do and its head are the only ones who are doing the REAL Shaolin.

(this is like claiming to be Champion of all Asia - say what?)

I do find it funny that such a claim can be made - with all that it implies as in "All you other folks doing anything Shaolin - well you just aren't doing it..BUT WE ARE....yada yada yada" and then having someone from a Shaolin-Do school complain because Ross isn't showing them courtesy and respect....seems the first volley was fired in this assumption on that battle....

People are also bugged about this claim because there is a lot of 'questionable' background stated as 'fact' here.

Sorry, but Zhong guo Wushu _ as in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts - came from a Chinese Culture...where family, lineage, etc.. rule. To make claims about your family history is just as big a deal as claiming something in your lineage....simply not done.

(2) The real thing you are trying to get to with this Shaolin thread should actually be reworded into what makes a style or systems Zhong guo Wushu - Chinese Martial Art - vs. something that is NOT a Chinese Style - and this is a discussion that Kenpo guys have been working over for years....and they are not EVEN claiming to be the authentic Shaolin...

Now, you CAN get to a description of what makes a style Chinese Martial Art - in another thread, Ross did a start at this. It goes further - there is a flavor to the movement - here you have to get into the divisions - northern TENDS to have this flavor southern - that...

And that is where the Shaolin-Do claims get a lot of flack.... they do not fit this classification by many's estimation

[kwaichang]

Baqualin I Am Going To Hit You For This
Kcwho Told You This Anyway /??????

[Flaca]

Baqualin I Am Going To Hit You For This
Kcwho Told You This Anyway /??????


It's on main forum page, listed with all the birthdays.:D

[kwaichang]

Thats like saying Michael Jordan is the greatest American athlete of the past 100 years he// he aint even american KC

[sean_stonehart]

Thats like saying Michael Jordan is the greatest American athlete of the past 100 years he// he aint even american KC

I'm sorry what?? Michael Jordan isn't American? Was he born abroad to non resident aliens or immigrants?

Seriously... I have never heard this.

[brucereiter]

Bruce,

I saw a few posts back that you're in Atlanta. Is your school on Highland? I'm just curious. I was in Atlanta last weekend for the Family Values Tour. I was walking down Highland and saw a kung-fu school. The sign looked similar to a Shaolin-Do school signs I see around KY.

Just wondered if that was you.

Shane
Hi shane,

Yes it is one of the schools I am part of.

I am traveling right now so i have not been to the school all summer.

How was family values tour?

Best,

Bruce

[brucereiter]

shaolindoiscool,
no problemo, I always enjoy hooking up with other Martial Artists. If you are ever in the NY area, mi casa,su casa.
As far as my backround, I have been studying various systems for the past thirty years,aquiring several Black Belts along the way-some people collect stamps...
but my maiin focus, for the past twenty years or so has been Siu Lum Hung Kuen (Hung-Ga) and recently (going on three years) KwongSi Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai (Jook Lum Southern Mantis). Studying numerous styles has been both a blessing and a curse however. A blessing, because I was exposed to alot, and can speak with (relative) authority on several systems, and also have an open mind to others' technique and concepts;. The downside is, having met people such as my present Mantis teacher, I realize the difference between studying many different styles, and focusing on one style and training it for many years. My teacher has been training in SPM for over 38 years, and his skill level is awe inspiring.
"Do not mistake the person who claims twenty years of experience, when he actually has two years, ten times."
TT
Thanks for the background info.

Best

Bruce

[Lucas]

I'm sorry what?? Michael Jordan isn't American? Was he born abroad to non resident aliens or immigrants?

Seriously... I have never heard this.

Jordan was born in Brooklyn, New York, and raised in Wilmington, North Carolina

http://www.ewsonline.com/sports/jordan/bio.html

[brucereiter]

Cool. I walked right past the training hall of some forum members from faraway lands and didn't know it. I would have left a note or something. :)

Yeah, I was wondering about the parking when I saw it myself. I was trying to imagine twenty or thirty people showing up for class and looking for a spot. I actually stayed at the Highland Inn down the street. I saw it on the internet and it looked like my kind of area. That idea was reinforced when I walked past a kung fu school my first night there.

And Family Values rocked. Well, Korn and Evanescence did anyway. The other bands were decent. $10 for a 24 oz. beer, though? I left broke.

I was there for four days, first time in Atlanta. Saw a play at Fox Theater, went to the Underground, Lenox Square, and Little Five Points. Also stopped by the aquarium on the way out of town. I had a good time, seemed like a nice place. The only thing that freaked me out was the extremely small number of red lights that had left hand turning lanes. Not used to heading for a light at 50 mph and then having the guy in front of me come to a dead stop and hit his turn signal.

Shane
Hi shane,

Glad you had a good time in atlanta. Next time look me up ...

I live a mile from the school. It is a great area to live in.

Korn rocks! I have seen them many times ...

In the last year they for a reason not known by me they keep getting rid of the left turn lanes ... Rrrrgh!

[sunfist]

Im thinking its because they claim to teach a massive array of highly disparate arts very quickly, arts with contradicting body mechanics and training methods. This leaves only 2 possibilities:

-They are a hell of a lot better at kung fu than everyone else.

-They have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and have actually found a more efficient way of systematically defecating on the traditional arts than modern wushu, which is an achievment for all the wrong reasons.

Most in shaolin do will say its the former, most outside will say its the latter. In the end, I can do little more than to advise new martial artists making this choice to do so very carefully.

[BlueTravesty]

First off, nothing about SD (or just about any other style that claims Shaolin lineage) is "obviously" Shaolin. You don't get to define your own standards of Shaolin and then tell people they're missing something that's RIGHT THERE based on your own homegrown standards and biases.

Let's keep in mind too that other than hearsay, fiction, general consensus and "common sense" there's really nothing that points to animal styles as being a distinctive part of Shaolin Martial arts of the pre-Communist era. It's LIKELY that they might have practiced Animal forms, but nothing I've come across has pointed to them as being emphasized over more "mundane" fighting methods (such as HongQuan)

So using those forms and saying "See, SD is OBVIOUSLY true shaolin because we do ANIMAL FORMS" is kind of like saying "I'm Norwegian because I'm wearing a horned helmet."

I think the most concise, neutral, objective definition of "real Shaolin" is whatever is being practiced at a historically verifiable Shaolin Temple right now (hint: so far there's only one!) Which means if the monks suddenly decide to drop Wushu and Traditional Sets and start doing Krav Maga, Krav Maga is now "real" Shaolin by virtue of it being practiced at Shaolin Temple.

If you find the current Shaolin curriculum disappointing, no problem. Just say "Shaolin sucks, what they might have been practicing before was better." I hated Chrono Cross and Matrix: Revolutions too, but unfortunately those are legitimate sequels to franchises I like. No amount of fanboy ranting and fanfiction would change that.

G'night! :)

PS- fwiw I think Shaolin's current curriculum- Traditional Longfist, Wushu, and San Da- is pretty respectable. I could do without the Wushu, but since they spend more time on the Longfist alone than most MAists do in their entire tenure, I'll give them a pass.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why would anyone wanna be associated with Shaolin anyways?
They've gotten slapped around more than a redhead step child on his birthday.
Even a dude with white eyebrows punked them.

[Baqualin]

It's on main forum page, listed with all the birthdays.:D

SSSSSSH....don't give up my secrets;)
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Jordan was born in Brooklyn, New York, and raised in Wilmington, North Carolina

http://www.ewsonline.com/sports/jordan/bio.html

He's not Native American?

[sha0lin1]

Here are my thoughts on the subject. There are many schools out there that claim to teach Shaolin that claim some historic connection to this temple or that one. We will wait and see what becomes of all of them as more and more monks and disciples emigrate to other countries to spread Shaolin and the sangha. There are quite a few monks here in the U.S. and there are more coming and this is a direct connection to Shaolin Temple. As I have posted before my Shifu has a vision to have a Shaolin school in every major city in Texas and he is actively recruiting other masters to come to Texas. So true Shaolin is becoming more and more accessable to the general populace with every monk that comes.

As for SD, I have done SD and many of my best friends are SD'ers. I have to say that the training is good and the techniques are effective. What can be said whether you like them or not is that it is a martial art. Whether it is Shaolin is questionable. When people go to check into a school they have the responsibility to make the best choice for themselves that they can. They should do the research and check out similar schools before they decide. That is why this site and these threads are so valuable. Anyone can check out the postings and decide whether they believe a lineage before they make a decision.

[Judge Pen]

Anyone can check out the postings and decide whether they believe a lineage before they make a decision.


Or whether lineage is important to them.

[GeneChing]

I'm tempted to merge all the Shaolin Do threads into the Is Shaolin-Do for real? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782) thread. What do you think?

[godzillakungfu]

Yes, same rehash even if it starts new.

[lkfmdc]

I'm tempted to merge all the Shaolin Do threads into the Is Shaolin-Do for real? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782) thread. What do you think?


Gene Ching, Shaolin Enforcer

(and president and CEO of "Shaolin Taco Time")

[Royal Dragon]

Merga away!! :D

[Judge Pen]

I'm tempted to merge all the Shaolin Do threads into the Is Shaolin-Do for real? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782) thread. What do you think?

Sweep the leg, Johnny!

I mean, please merge the threads.

[David Jamieson]

I'm tempted to merge all the Shaolin Do threads into the Is Shaolin-Do for real? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782) thread. What do you think?

Yes! Be a Man! Do It! :D

[Baqualin]

I'm tempted to merge all the Shaolin Do threads into the Is Shaolin-Do for real? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782) thread. What do you think?

DO it, Do it, Do it man Do it:D

[GeneChing]

Why is Shaolin Do not real Shaolin?? and Grand Master Sin Kwang The' are now merged into this ultimate Shaolin-Do thread. Did I miss any?

[Baqualin]

Why is Shaolin Do not real Shaolin?? and Grand Master Sin Kwang The' are now merged into this ultimate Shaolin-Do thread. Did I miss any?

Shaolin scandle:cool:
BQ

[kwaichang]

Have you ever noticed the individual that started the Sd for real thread has only posted 1 time ???????? Throw the pebble into the water and it begins fresh journeys KC so the answer is yes a resounding yes. Many have come and gone and no one has proven anything many speculate but none prove. SD is real as anyof the other so called Shaolin arts . So who cares any way and of course the age old argument of butyou said. get over it it doesnt look the same , so it doesnt have the same supposed history so. It is what it is I have compared it to other so called CMA and I like it I have learned alot and no one who says anything can take that from me . If I hit you it will hurt and prob KO you. But who cares If it works and is or isnot Shaolin who cares 50 years from now you will all be old and gray and still argueing so waste time and cease to grow as people if you want . My SD works for me and that is all that counts . KC GET OVER IT.

[cjurakpt]

Why is Shaolin Do not real Shaolin?? and Grand Master Sin Kwang The' are now merged into this ultimate Shaolin-Do thread. Did I miss any?

ah yes, a boost of thread-nourishment, moving it even closer to the miraculous "500"...I mean, c'mon guys - only 98 pages to go - CAN'T STOP NOW!!!

[djcaldwell]

Don't forget JCAT's "curious" thread which would make it even closer. Heck, Gene may as well just make a whole section for Shaolin Do where the same arguments can be had over, and over, and over...while the SD guys come back with the same 3 stock responses to 1001 different views.

[Lamassu]

Why does it bother you guys so much?

If you don't like Shaolin Do, then the best thing for you to do is avoid it and not talk about it. Let it go. Now I know the same old tired response: "But they make all these claims about being the most comprehensive martial art blah blah blah, and it's my duty to p!$$ and moan for the sake of Shaolin even though I have no ties to it whatsoever except maybe that I'm learning Longfist or something!"

If you're learning the "real" Shaolin and we aren't, then why do you care? To "warn" others about the "evil" Grandmaster Sin The? How noble of you, tell me, do you wear a cape to work? You're so righteous, I must say we're all very :rolleyes: impressed down here.

Those of us that practice Shaolin Do are on these forums so we can communicate with one another as well as with the martial art community in general. I've noticed when a SDer posts something, it's usually a technical question about a form or application or query about the lineage. Unfortunately, it's that last part that brings about the peanut gallery ready to insult, mock and jeer. Don't you losers have anything better to do? Go practice your "superior" martial art and let us continue with our topic uninterrupted.

I really don't give a rats @$$ what anybody here thinks about Shaolin Do, that's not why I joined. All I'll say though is if you can't talk to an SDer here without antagonizing us about our martial art (that no one here can change, improve or destroy anyway), then apparently your martial art isn't all that either if it's students can show any civility, it's probably worse cr@p than Shaolin Do could ever be.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Many of us have very different views on what Shaolin-Do is and isn't. There's at least 20 different viewpoints regularly stated.

If nothing else, Shaolin-Do is shaolin inspired, or shaolin adapted, or shaolin rooted.

So, if the "most comprehensive shaolin system" is a point of contention, I think we can settle it pretty well.

Do any of you non-Shaolin Do-kas have a cirriculum that approaches the varied content of Shaolin-Do?

If not (which is pretty much given), I think we can stick with legitimacy claims. If Shaolin-Do makes one valid claim, it's in that it teaches more variety and forms than any other system.

Whether or not that such a variety is a good idea is still up for debate.

[SaintSage]

If I hit you it will hurt and prob KO you.:rolleyes:

Where's knifefighter when you need him...

It has nothing to do with your art, that's just a silly response. That's not how the body works.

[djcaldwell]

Why does it bother you guys so much?

If you don't like Shaolin Do, then the best thing for you to do is avoid it and not talk about it. Let it go. Now I know the same old tired response: "But they make all these claims about being the most comprehensive martial art blah blah blah, and it's my duty to p!$$ and moan for the sake of Shaolin even though I have no ties to it whatsoever except maybe that I'm learning Longfist or something!"

If you're learning the "real" Shaolin and we aren't, then why do you care? To "warn" others about the "evil" Grandmaster Sin The? How noble of you, tell me, do you wear a cape to work? You're so righteous, I must say we're all very :rolleyes: impressed down here.

Those of us that practice Shaolin Do are on these forums so we can communicate with one another as well as with the martial art community in general. I've noticed when a SDer posts something, it's usually a technical question about a form or application or query about the lineage. Unfortunately, it's that last part that brings about the peanut gallery ready to insult, mock and jeer. Don't you losers have anything better to do? Go practice your "superior" martial art and let us continue with our topic uninterrupted.

I really don't give a rats @$$ what anybody here thinks about Shaolin Do, that's not why I joined. All I'll say though is if you can't talk to an SDer here without antagonizing us about our martial art (that no one here can change, improve or destroy anyway), then apparently your martial art isn't all that either if it's students can show any civility, it's probably worse cr@p than Shaolin Do could ever be.


I know neither myself nor many others hear have claimed to do this for the "sake of Shaolin" nor have I ever claimed shaolin lineage. What I did comment on and not complained about - was that their claims of direct ties to the Shaolin temple were nonsense.

Based solely on any performance I've seen to date of Shaolin Do - which I know you and the rest will say is of course poor representations. But when the schools themselves are posting their demos and what not - you can't tell me that it's a poor representation - why would they post their worst students and/or demos?

With that, from what I've seen it's KENPO which by no means a Chinese Martial Art. Here is an section of a read on Kenpo / Kempo:

90 years ago Kenpo was so well known as an effective fighting art in Japan that many Japanese styles that had no connection with Kenpo claimed their art was derived from Kenpo. Some even went so far as to claim their masters had training directly under Chinese Kenpo masters. Similar claims have continued to this day, even though there has never been a Chinese Kenpo master; nor has there been a master of the Chinese style that gave rise to Kenpo in centuries. What's even more ridiculous are the Korean schools that claim to teach Kenpo as part of Tai Kwon Do. This Chinese Kenpo is not to be confused with the styles developed by Kenpo students who went on to train with Bruce Lee and created their own systems of Chinese Kenpo.

There is no argument that what you guys do was "influenced" by CMA but it is not CMA. That is where I have a problem - just say what you are doing and don't mislead people. I know several people who made up their own fighitng system and they say just that without trying to lay claim to BS.

If you believe it great. If it works for you great. No one is going to change your minds. But don't expect that people who have done CMA for most of their lives are going to look at this and say it is a Cat when we all know it's a Dog.

[Baqualin]

:rolleyes:

Where's knifefighter when you need him...

It has nothing to do with your art, that's just a silly response. That's not how the body works.

How quick to pull the trigger...KC is my friend and was only teasing.....he knows he can't hit hard enough to KO me:D
BQ

[Baqualin]

say it is a Cat when we all know it's a Dog.

Instead of we all know, didn't you mean....we know all:rolleyes:
BQ

[sha0lin1]

Do any of you non-Shaolin Do-kas have a cirriculum that approaches the varied content of Shaolin-Do?

Yes, it is called Song Shan Shaolin, the martial arts of the Shaolin Temple. As taught by Monks with direct lineages to Shaolin Temple.


If not (which is pretty much given), I think we can stick with legitimacy claims. If Shaolin-Do makes one valid claim, it's in that it teaches more variety and forms than any other system.

We also have a variety of forms and arts that we teach. Take your pick external, internal, qi gong. What can be said is that at 900 and some forms you teach more forms than anybody.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Do any of you non-Shaolin Do-kas have a cirriculum that approaches the varied content of Shaolin-Do?

Yes, it is called Song Shan Shaolin, the martial arts of the Shaolin Temple. As taught by Monks with direct lineages to Shaolin Temple.


If not (which is pretty much given), I think we can stick with legitimacy claims. If Shaolin-Do makes one valid claim, it's in that it teaches more variety and forms than any other system.

We also have a variety of forms and arts that we teach. Take your pick external, internal, qi gong. What can be said is that at 900 and some forms you teach more forms than anybody.

Dude, I was being a smartass..........just leave it at that....:D

Do you really want to get into it with anyone on this board of any Chinese martial art concerning the legitimacy and authenticity of Songshan's current wushu cirriculum? If you do, here's my level 16 Fire Dragon shield forged in the furnace of Mt. Etna's fiery depths, encrusted with the flame-retardant scales of a red dragon........you're going to need it, my young padawan.

[Lamassu]

I know neither myself nor many others hear have claimed to do this for the "sake of Shaolin" nor have I ever claimed shaolin lineage. What I did comment on and not complained about - was that their claims of direct ties to the Shaolin temple were nonsense.

Again, why do you care? What does it matter to you personally if Shaolin Do claims to have direct lineage to Shaolin or not?


There is no argument that what you guys do was "influenced" by CMA but it is not CMA. That is where I have a problem - just say what you are doing and don't mislead people. I know several people who made up their own fighitng system and they say just that without trying to lay claim to BS.

I've heard this tired excuse for b!tch!ng too, but no one can site specifics how it's not CMA. The burden of proof is on the dectractors because being someone who just came off the street and signed up to Shaolin Do (like most people interested in martial arts) I and others would say it is CMA. I've taken karate before when I was younger and trust me, Shaolin Do is NOT karate or any other japanese martial art, kenpo or otherwise. BTW, I'm not a teacher or master or in any other way tied with SD, I'm just a student and I don't think it's BS or misleading in any way.


If you believe it great. If it works for you great. No one is going to change your minds. But don't expect that people who have done CMA for most of their lives are going to look at this and say it is a Cat when we all know it's a Dog.

And why would I want you to? I get this everpresent feeling that most people here joined their respective CMA, JUST SO THEY CAN TALK SMACK ON THIS FORUM! I know your asinine opinion about Shaolin Do as I do many others here, so why do you feel the need to give it every time an SDer tries to strike up a conversation with fellow SDers about a topic that you and so many others have no business in?

Ssssshhhhhhhhhh... let it go... yes, I know... Shaolin Do is bad... it's bad... just calm down and lets move on to more important topics... it's okay...it's okay...

[Shaolin Wookie]

Again, why do you care? What does it matter to you personally if Shaolin Do claims to have direct lineage to Shaolin or not?

I agree. Why are people here so sensitive to this? Do they feel like they're being misrepresented by Shaolin-Do when they're not even Shaolin-Do? Nobody seems to take issue with Shorin-Ryu--which, having been in some classes--I know is not at all like SD. Shao-lin Do is not Songshan Shaolin. Honestly, Songshan Shaolin isn't even Songshan Shaolin, LOL.:eek: Is it because GM Sin says he is Grandmaster of Shaolin? Well, he named the art Shaolin-Do. I really don't think he thinks it's anything but Shaolin-Do, or else he'd have named it Shaolin, without the Do.




I've taken karate before when I was younger and trust me, Shaolin Do is NOT karate or any other japanese martial art, kenpo or otherwise.

Same here. The closest thing is our ippon training, but those are done waaaay differently, and the stance, striking (crane slaps, especially), and footwork is the marking difference as a chinese thing. I know it's cheezy, but I always get this image in my head of the Indonesian school practicing their Shaolin stuff, then some local Chinese-hater or cop walks in, and everyone switches over and does some ippon work until he leaves (the insistence in karate [especially shorin-ryu] of stopping short of striking during sparring/ippons is really not consistent at all with SD training). They're not even ippons in the Shotokan/Shorin-ryu way. It's like a Chinese guys best approximation of a chinese technique that looks like an ippon technique. But they're really good for teaching students how to get the most out of their forms.



I get this everpresent feeling that most people here joined their respective CMA, JUST SO THEY CAN TALK SMACK ON THIS FORUM!

True. It's like people wanted to join this eclectic tea-drinking club of Chinese martial arts, and are ****ed off they let the black guy in.


Ssssshhhhhhhhhh... let it go... yes, I know... Shaolin Do is bad... it's bad... just calm down and lets move on to more important topics... it's okay...it's okay...

I get this image of Dana Carvey as George Bush, sr.:D:eek:

[Shaolin Wookie]

Does anyone know the background story behind Sin The's great great great grandfather, and the death of a shaolin abbot?

Watchin' this lecture he gave at M. Schaefer's school, and he mentioned this occurence twice. I can't tell whether he's talking about his ancestors as in his cultural heritage, or his actual family.

[djcaldwell]

...being someone who just came off the street and signed up to Shaolin Do (like most people interested in martial arts) I and others would say it is CMA.

Now with this statement - how is it that you and others with little or NO exposure to CMA feel able to attest to the validity of SD versus others who have spend 1/2 their lives or more practicing CMA? It just doesn't make sense. That in itself is what's ridiculous.


I've taken karate before when I was younger and trust me, Shaolin Do is NOT karate or any other japanese martial art, kenpo or otherwise. BTW, I'm not a teacher or master or in any other way tied with SD, I'm just a student and I don't think it's BS or misleading in any way.

I too took Karate when I was young. My brother in law is a Kenpo instructor, my nephew studies Kenpo. My cousin taught Karate for years. My younger cousin is was a TKD national champ. So when I tell you SD looks more like Kenpo - trust me it does. So to say it's misleading to claim CMA relation or "shaolin" lineage could not be more on point.



I get this everpresent feeling that most people here joined their respective CMA, JUST SO THEY CAN TALK SMACK ON THIS FORUM!

Way back on that Commodor 64 which then upgraded to a glorified word processor with all the abundant internet access I had. I was dreaming of accessing the KFM forum someday. You've uncovered the secret!



I know your asinine opinion about Shaolin Do as I do many others here, so why do you feel the need to give it every time an SDer tries to strike up a conversation with fellow SDers about a topic that you and so many others have no business in?

Problem is you're on a public KUNG FU FORUM - so topics pertaining to oh, KF and CMA are pretty much we all have an interest or "business" in it.

For the record, it IS annoying when you spend 1/2 your life training in CMA you take it pretty seriously and enjoy what you do. Then comes along a group of people who say they do the same thing you do (i.e. CMA not they specific style) and it is NOTHING LIKE WHAT YOU DO. It's embarrassing to watch and yet you know that this to many people is being promoted as Chinese Martial Arts.

As you said yourself, for many it is their only exposure to what they think is CMA and it bothers me to know that this is what many people think CMA is. Recently, I was judging at a tourney which was great, but I watched demonstrations by a so called CMA school. It was horrific. However, it was this areas only exposure to any kind of CMA. Their Lion Dancing would have been insulting to anyone who does Lion Dancing (I don't and I knew it was all wrong). Their demos and performances were just nonsense and had little to no martial application and were basically dancing on stage in frog button clothes.

Another Sifu and myself then decided that we could not leave there with that being the only representation of CMA so we both did imprompt to demos of what real CMA was. Nothing crazy, just quick forms and just so that people could see what real CMA looked like. So yes, it does bother me and a great many others obviously and if I have the opportunity to show what real CMA is about then I take it.

For the record the other instructors of all different styles loved the demos and after the tourney we discussed the whole thing very nicely over dinner.

[BlueTravesty]

Why does it bother you guys so much?

I agree that people take this issue way too personally- but dude, have you even READ half of what goes on on this forum? Read any MMA vs. TMA thread (which is what most of the posts on the forum end up becoming.) and you'll see disputes that get WAY less civil and more personal than this one.

I think what kinda raises most peoples' dander about SD/CSC/Whatevertheheck is the few extremeists who shame most SD'ers by posting the most insipid garbage about chinese martial arts on SD and CSC webpages.

First there's the "SD looks different than other forms of Chinese martial arts because it's not a bunch of flowery performance crap- we use our forms for FIGHTING. :rolleyes: Also everything everyone else is doing is all PRC-sponsored wushu. Even the stuff from masters who fled the cultural revolution. Really."

There's also it's cousin argument "The monks at the Shaolin Temple today ONLY do Modern Wushu. That's all they do. Yep." Which requires a belief in the Time Traveling Modern Wushu Conspiracy Or they believe that San Da + Traditional Longfist + Modern Wushu = only Modern Wushu.

Then there's the inbred mentally-challenged brother argument (I call him Cletus) "Those so-called 'Kung Fu Uniforms' you all wear are just a bunch of movie knock offs. Gis are more authentic, because they look sorta like the robes used by Buddhist Monks." This ignores the existance of the Chin Woo association which used that very "movie-based" uniform as its standard of clothing. Also, the only way a Gi would EVER look anything remotely like a Buddhist Monk's robe is if someone was commissioned to make a Monk's robe without ever seeing a monk's robe in their lives. And they would have to be color blind. Then again, anyone on either side of the debate who is that preoccupied with MA fashion is beyond help anyway.

But then, there are even a lot of SD'ers who reject these ideas, so at least we know it's the fringe. Or at least I hope so.

[Lamassu]

Yes, I understand the discrepencies of Shaolin Do, I noticed all that has been brought up time and time again when I first entered the kwoon. And if you get rock hard over everything Chinese than more power to you, but NO SDer posting here is in any kind of position to make changes to the martial art, if we even wanted to. At least TWS wrote a letter to GM The with his questions (allegedly), and I respect him for taking it to the source. We're just a bunch of guys who practice our kung fu (yeah yeah I called SD kung fu) who enjoy what we do and want to talk about it over this forum. How many more threads does Gene have to merge into this one before you guys realize all the p!ss!ing and moaning doesn't accomplish a d@mn thing?

[boshea]

I have no gripe with Shaolin Do per se. However, the name "Shaolin" carries with it a certain amount of clout in the martial arts world, which makes me suspicious of anyone using the name that can't convincingly demonstrate its lineage all the way back to the Shaolin Temple. If it can stand on its own as an art, it shouldn't need to use the name of another [reputable] art to boost its reputation. If it is in fact derived from Shaolin, I would think that the burden of proof would be on the ones making that claim (and charging money for lessons). If you can't prove it to those who choose not to believe it, then there is really no more point in trying to convince them.

Conversely, while I sympathize with people questioning the lineage of a martial art that they are considering investing time, effort, and money to learn, there is no point in trying to convince people who have already made up their mind about its authenticity. It's like trying to argue with a believer in any religion over a point of faith. Beyond presenting the facts available (or lack thereof), there is no point in trying to convince believers otherwise if they have already made up their minds. Insulting them over their beliefs usually only strengthens their faith.

I realize that this applies to my belief in the authenticity of the Shaolin Kung Fu training that I received (and paid for in time, effort, and money), and to my belief in the authenticity of Muay Thai which I am training in now. Having traveled to the places of origin of both of those arts, I am satisfied with my belief in their heritage. I could be wrong, though.

[tattooedmonk]

Why has Kung Fu Magazine published SD articles if there is no connection to Shaolin or CMA??

[boshea]

Why has Kung Fu Magazine published SD articles if there is no connection to Shaolin or CMA??

Maybe because Shaolin-Do claims a lineage back to the Shaolin Temple, and KFM does not make it their mission to invistigate the authenticity of the claims of various martial arts' lineages?

Besides, Kung Fu Magazine publishes many articles about martial arts that have no connection to Shaolin. Tai Chi Chuan, for example, originated from Wudang Shan, and they publish many articles about Tai Chi Chuan. I think the only issue with Shaolin-Do is its claim to a lineage going back to the Shaolin Temple. I don't think it is disputed that its founders were Chinese.

I'm not getting in the middle of the debate over the authenticity of Shaolin-Do's lineage -- I don't care one way or the other. But if you're going to argue about it, let's stick to facts in our arguments. You are, however, free to believe whatever you want (facts or no facts). Nobody can take that away from you, and if you are certain in your beliefs, then it shouldn't matter what others think.

[kwaichang]

" the Shaolin Temple. I don't think it is disputed that its founders were Chinese."
SD does not say this.
"But if you're going to argue about it, let's stick to facts in our arguments. "
I agree to this. SD cites the origins to 6 not 1 Shaolin Temple. One of which was in Wu Dang See the art is Shaolin Do or the Way of Shaolin. SD does trace its origin to these temples. So as you say believe what you want but get your facts straight. Those who comment on here do not have all the facts. Also SD is said to be more like the arts as they were practiced way back when not that Wu Shu is not real CMA just with different emphasis. BTW I am not commenting on what has been written here , just what Masters and GMT has said. KC

[Golden Tiger]

Now with this statement - how is it that you and others with little or NO exposure to CMA feel able to attest to the validity of SD versus others who have spend 1/2 their lives or more practicing CMA? It just doesn't make sense. That in itself is what's ridiculous.


Lets rephase your statement dj and have a look at it....

Now with this statement - how is it that you and others with little or NO exposure to SD feel able to attest to the validity of SD versus others who have spend 1/2 their lives or more practicing SD? It just doesn't make sense. That in itself is what's ridiculous.


Excellent point you made....:)

[Baqualin]

Now with this statement - how is it that you and others with little or NO exposure to CMA feel able to attest to the validity of SD versus others who have spend 1/2 their lives or more practicing CMA? It just doesn't make sense. That in itself is what's ridiculous.

Answered by GT;)

I too took Karate when I was young. My brother in law is a Kenpo instructor, my nephew studies Kenpo. My cousin taught Karate for years. My younger cousin is was a TKD national champ. So when I tell you SD looks more like Kenpo - trust me it does. So to say it's misleading to claim CMA relation or "shaolin" lineage could not be more on point.

First tell me of your actual experience with SD:confused:
We have many X Karate, Kenpo, TKD black belts in SD who don't agree with you...so how can I trust you......just because you say so:rolleyes:



Way back on that Commodor 64 which then upgraded to a glorified word processor with all the abundant internet access I had. I was dreaming of accessing the KFM forum someday. You've uncovered the secret!




Problem is you're on a public KUNG FU FORUM - so topics pertaining to oh, KF and CMA are pretty much we all have an interest or "business" in it.

For the record, it IS annoying when you spend 1/2 your life training in CMA you take it pretty seriously and enjoy what you do. Then comes along a group of people who say they do the same thing you do (i.e. CMA not they specific style) and it is NOTHING LIKE WHAT YOU DO. It's embarrassing to watch and yet you know that this to many people is being promoted as Chinese Martial Arts.

For the record it is annoying when someone comes along who knows nothing of what your doing and tells you don't know what your doing.....also I don't claim to do the same thing you do:eek:



As you said yourself, for many it is their only exposure to what they think is CMA and it bothers me to know that this is what many people think CMA is. Recently, I was judging at a tourney which was great, but I watched demonstrations by a so called CMA school. It was horrific. However, it was this areas only exposure to any kind of CMA. Their Lion Dancing would have been insulting to anyone who does Lion Dancing (I don't and I knew it was all wrong). Their demos and performances were just nonsense and had little to no martial application and were basically dancing on stage in frog button clothes.

Another Sifu and myself then decided that we could not leave there with that being the only representation of CMA so we both did imprompt to demos of what real CMA was. Nothing crazy, just quick forms and just so that people could see what real CMA looked like. So yes, it does bother me and a great many others obviously and if I have the opportunity to show what real CMA is about then I take it.

Good for you....I've done the same thing before:cool:

For the record the other instructors of all different styles loved the demos and after the tourney we discussed the whole thing very nicely over dinner.

At least you seem to be a nice guy:)

[djcaldwell]

Lets rephase your statement dj and have a look at it....

Now with this statement - how is it that you and others with little or NO exposure to SD feel able to attest to the validity of SD versus others who have spend 1/2 their lives or more practicing SD? It just doesn't make sense. That in itself is what's ridiculous.


Excellent point you made....:)

You need to include the statement to which I was responding in order for that to make sense. Which was that he and many other SD'ers have not prior exposure to CMA. Whereas, myself and others who have commented have many, many years experience in CMA and MA in general. Therefore, would be a bit more qualified to comment on whether or not it is CMA or not than someone with NO EXPERIENCE.


First tell me of your actual experience with SD
We have many X Karate, Kenpo, TKD black belts in SD who don't agree with you...so how can I trust you......just because you say so

Again, I don't have to have experience with SD itself to see that it is not CMA. Are truly trying to tell me that Karate, Kenpo and TKD (i.e. Japanese and Korean martial artists) can judge what is and what is not CMA better than CMA practitioners? I think not.


For the record it is annoying when someone comes along who knows nothing of what your doing and tells you don't know what your doing.....also I don't claim to do the same thing you do


But yet you do. You (general term not you specificially) sit here and say that SD is CMA and not just CMA but the ultimate CMA when in fact it is far from.



Good for you....I've done the same thing before

I'm sure you have.;)

[Lamassu]

But yet you do. You (general term not you specificially) sit here and say that SD is CMA and not just CMA but the ultimate CMA when in fact it is far from.

This isn't valid, merely because it's a matter of opinion. What you're telling me is that we shouldn't call SD CMA, and not just that but the "ultimate CMA" (I nor anyone else I can think of at the top of my head ever said it was the "ultimate CMA", please site who specifically said that.

As for all your uber experience in all things martial arts, I again challenge you to site specifically HOW SD is more like Japanese martial arts and not CMA. That's the one response I'm waiting for, and so far NO ONE has given a clear and concise answer. Enlighten us o masterful one. :rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

You need to include the statement to which I was responding in order for that to make sense. Which was that he and many other SD'ers have not prior exposure to CMA. Whereas, myself and others who have commented have many, many years experience in CMA and MA in general. Therefore, would be a bit more qualified to comment on whether or not it is CMA or not than someone with NO EXPERIENCE.



But you have little or no experience with SD, therefore, you are not qualified to make a comparison. You would be more than qualifed to compare things that you have all these years of experience in, but SD is not one of them. Likewise, I have over 30 years of experience in SD, but none in say..TKD. So, to avoid sounding silly spouting off about something I have "little or no experience in" I tend to be quiet about TKD.

[djcaldwell]

As for all your uber experience in all things martial arts,

I didn't say I had uber experience - just more than you per your own admission. I've grown up in and/or around martial arts. So I've had exposure to Japanese, Korean, Chinese and Thai martial arts. Far from Uber but more than enough to be able to decipher between them. Unlike someon with NO EXPOSURE.


I again challenge you to site specifically HOW SD is more like Japanese martial arts and not CMA. That's the one response I'm waiting for, and so far NO ONE has given a clear and concise answer. Enlighten us o masterful one. :rolleyes:

Actually, David Ross, Chris, MK and a pleuthera of others have written and posted clips as to how and WHY SD differs. Yet, you again request more explanation. It was provided so either you don't understand it (which w/ no prior experience is probably the most likely reason) or you just are so brainwashed that you just can't see the forest for the trees.

Either way read back about 200 pages and there are countelss explanations.

Being around Kenpo though I can tell you that your forms resemble them more than anything else. MK said it in the beginning - there is no point in debating this because you blindly follow based on "faith" in what you have been told. It's cool and nice that you back up your teacher - all things good students usually do - but it is not wrong to question - to investigate and to GROW. That's something good students do as well.

Otherwise, as a Sifu I know once told me you're like a turtle stuck who lives on a mountain knowing nothing of what is on the other mountains. If you don't explore all you can do is defend what you know having no knowledge of anything else. You pull your head in your shell and snap out once in a while if you feel threatened. But all the time never knowing anything more than your own small mountain.

All I'm saying is there is a whole mountain range out there - take a look and then comment. (of course I'm going to hear that they have already ...and....)

[djcaldwell]

But you have little or no experience with SD, therefore, you are not qualified to make a comparison. You would be more than qualifed to compare things that you have all these years of experience in, but SD is not one of them. Likewise, I have over 30 years of experience in SD, but none in say..TKD. So, to avoid sounding silly spouting off about something I have "little or no experience in" I tend to be quiet about TKD.


See comment about turtle and mountain. Then come back to me.

[Lamassu]

I didn't say I had uber experience - just more than you per your own admission. I've grown up in and/or around martial arts. So I've had exposure to Japanese, Korean, Chinese and Thai martial arts. Far from Uber but more than enough to be able to decipher between them. Unlike someon with NO EXPOSURE.

You said you spent half of your life training in martial arts, that sounds like 'uber' to me. I'm not questioning it, I'm just stating a fact.


Actually, David Ross, Chris, MK and a pleuthera of others have written and posted clips as to how and WHY SD differs. Yet, you again request more explanation. It was provided so either you don't understand it (which w/ no prior experience is probably the most likely reason) or you just are so brainwashed that you just can't see the forest for the trees.

Either way read back about 200 pages and there are countelss explanations.

I've read their posts, and their reasons are general and vague. For one the gi nonsense, well if your martial art is defined by what you wear, then does Choy Li Fut become a Scottish martial art if the class is held in kilts?:eek: My favorite one, is that SD doesn't have the "spirit" or "feel" of CMA, and I ask how or why and they can't list specifics. "Spirit" and "feelings" aren't appropriate words for a debate, because they're subjective in nature.


Being around Kenpo though I can tell you that your forms resemble them more than anything else.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. You're familiar with Kenpo and you no doubt saw demonstrations of SD forms posted here and elsewhere so please tell me what specific movements do you see akin with Kenpo? *sigh* the specifics people I want the specifics!


Otherwise, as a Sifu I know once told me you're like a turtle stuck who lives on a mountain knowing nothing of what is on the other mountains. If you don't explore all you can do is defend what you know having no knowledge of anything else. You pull your head in your shell and snap out once in a while if you feel threatened. But all the time never knowing anything more than your own small mountain.

All I'm saying is there is a whole mountain range out there - take a look and then comment. (of course I'm going to hear that they have already ...and....)

You are mistaken, not once since we started this discussion did I say that SD is all that and a bag of chips, my ONLY point was that b!tch!ng about it isn't going to change anything. I'm all for exploring other martial arts besides SD, I started a thread awhile back about Damo Jian, a nice beginner sword form I was learning, and even stressed that the thread had NOTHING to do with SD. I'm currently looking around Chicago for a kwoon that is nearby where I live and affordable. Particularly 7 Star Mantis, a friend of mine from Texas recently got his black belt and got me really curious about it. You and others seem to think that every:rolleyes: SDer on this forum are some blind religious zealots who would gladly jump over a cliff if our Grandmaster Sin The wills it, which just isn't true (for me at least). I started my path in martial arts to learn and grow, particularly in CMA, right now I have a 1st degree black belt in Shaolin Do. I enjoy Shaolin Do, I enjoy the forms, the sparring and the practical applications therein, but that doesn't mean it's the only martial art I'll ever practice in.

Like I said, and like you and MK said but with different words, let it go. Just let us have our conversations in peace without the constant pestering from the peanut gallery about that which we're all familiar with already.

[tattooedmonk]

I think that GMT, SD, and it's practitioners do CMA the way it is supposed to be done and that almost everyone else that practices CMA is doing a bunch of movement without any martial application.

This would explain why it is that all these guys have to get "Real" martial training and fighting from non Chinese arts.

One thing these guys keep forgetting is the evolution of the arts. Our art evolved one way, their's evolved a different way . There are many factors as to why this has happened.

If anything that lives does not adapt , modify, and evolve in this ever changing world it will die.

This might be the reason CMA is dying, or for some people is already dead. :D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Lets rephase your statement dj and have a look at it....

Now with this statement - how is it that you and others with little or NO exposure to SD feel able to attest to the validity of SD versus others who have spend 1/2 their lives or more practicing SD? It just doesn't make sense. That in itself is what's ridiculous.


Excellent point you made....:):D:D;):cool:

[B-Rad]

I think that GMT, SD, and it's practitioners do CMA the way it is supposed to be done and that almost everyone else that practices CMA is doing a bunch of movement without any martial application.
Trying to kill us with laughter? :D If the rest of the CMA community is that lacking in skill, they should stop stealing their material ;) Shaolin-Do teachers have been caught in so many lies... it's pretty pathetic.

[sean_stonehart]

This would explain why it is that all these guys have to get "Real" martial training and fighting from non Chinese arts.



http://www.texaskungfu.com/school/jiu-jitsu.html

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.texaskungfu.com/school/jiu-jitsu.htmlThis is one person. I know that other schools do it so they can know what they are fighting against but they are not teaching the material.

Did you see the guys back leg in that cat stance?? Terrible!

What do you think about that stance ?? Lets make this a positive discusion about martial arts.

[sean_stonehart]

This is one person. I know that other schools do it so they can know what they are fighting against but they are not teaching the material.

BWAHAHAHHAHAWAAAAAWHAHAHAHA... Ok... let me get you a bigger cup for the Kool Aid care when it comes around.



Did you see the guys back leg in that cat stance?? Terrible!

What do you think about that stance ?? Lets make this a positive discusion about martial arts.


Right... by you ragging a fellow SD'ers posture...

[Baqualin]

I didn't say I had uber experience - just more than you per your own admission. I've grown up in and/or around martial arts. So I've had exposure to Japanese, Korean, Chinese and Thai martial arts. Far from Uber but more than enough to be able to decipher between them. Unlike someon with NO EXPOSURE.



Actually, David Ross, Chris, MK and a pleuthera of others have written and posted clips as to how and WHY SD differs. Yet, you again request more explanation. It was provided so either you don't understand it (which w/ no prior experience is probably the most likely reason) or you just are so brainwashed that you just can't see the forest for the trees.

Once again all their explanations are based on a few clips of bad SD...... the majority of clips they have posted in comparision are nothing that makes me go wow and I've seen clips on other threads that have made me go WOW....one being the Tai Shing Pek Kwar videos of CTS's top student & the vid.'s of his birthday celebration.....that's real Kung Fu...so don't tell me I'm blind;)


Either way read back about 200 pages and there are countelss explanations.

Being around Kenpo though I can tell you that your forms resemble them more than anything else. MK said it in the beginning - there is no point in debating this because you blindly follow based on "faith" in what you have been told. It's cool and nice that you back up your teacher - all things good students usually do - but it is not wrong to question - to investigate and to GROW. That's something good students do as well.

Go back and look at JP's video posts....no one called them Kenpo and no one called Shaoliniscool's video post kenpo either...what's up:confused:

Otherwise, as a Sifu I know once told me you're like a turtle stuck who lives on a mountain knowing nothing of what is on the other mountains. If you don't explore all you can do is defend what you know having no knowledge of anything else. You pull your head in your shell and snap out once in a while if you feel threatened. But all the time never knowing anything more than your own small mountain.



All I'm saying is there is a whole mountain range out there - take a look and then comment. (of course I'm going to hear that they have already ...and....)

I've been studing Ma for 36 + years...always question everything....always research everything.....never call anything the ultimate.....never seen the ultimate:cool: