Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[tattooedmonk]

Right... by you ragging a fellow SD'ers posture...I would do it no matter who they are. And it is not ragging. It is an honest observation.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.texaskungfu.com/school/jiu-jitsu.html

Texas is going MMA proper!

[tattooedmonk]

Texas is going MMA proper!LMAO!!! That seems to be the way things are going out here in Cali too. Everyone claims this style or that style then a few months later they are teaching MMA / BJJ.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::eek:

[sean_stonehart]

I would do it no matter who they are. And it is not ragging. It is an honest observation.

Got one of yours to show how it should be done?

[Shaolin Wookie]

GM The' has admitted he took lessons from some other teachers even in Indonesia. What's wrong with a little cross-training? That's an awesome combo, IMO.

[boshea]

I think that GMT, SD, and it's practitioners do CMA the way it is supposed to be done and that almost everyone else that practices CMA is doing a bunch of movement without any martial application.

This would explain why it is that all these guys have to get "Real" martial training and fighting from non Chinese arts.

One thing these guys keep forgetting is the evolution of the arts. Our art evolved one way, their's evolved a different way . There are many factors as to why this has happened.

If anything that lives does not adapt , modify, and evolve in this ever changing world it will die.

This might be the reason CMA is dying, or for some people is already dead. :D:cool:

So we can expect SD practitioners to start entering full-contact fight tournaments against other styles then? I look forward to it! I love to see things get shaken up.

[jit fu]

LMAO!!! That seems to be the way things are going out here in Cali too. Everyone claims this style or that style then a few months later they are teaching MMA / BJJ.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::eek:

yeah...there was this group did that with tcma too!:eek:;):p

[kwaichang]

Hey I know that guy well and I will tell you it is about the money made from the fad of BJJ not the style and as far as the stance is concerned that is not a Karate Niko Ashi Dachi for sure it isnt Karate at all unless Kara te is China Hand. I will debate the difference of SD to Karate any day so bring on the examples so I can destroy them KC

[Lamassu]

Texas is going MMA proper!

That's only one kwoon in Cedar Park; no other kwoon in Texas offers BJJ in their ciriculum. Personally, I can understand why he would include BJJ though, there really is no ground fighting in SD until brown belt, and that's not much more than kicking the guy that took you down. I think this sifu is more concerned about teaching a well rounded fighting system for his students, since MOST fights end up on the ground anyway.

As for his cat stance, he's obviously posing for a picture, so cut the guy some slack, really I can't believe the number of snobs on this forum. :rolleyes:

[KungFu Student]

As for his cat stance, he's obviously posing for a picture, so cut the guy some slack, really I can't believe the number of snobs on this forum. :rolleyes:

Oh, I can. Internet anonymity at it's finest!

[tattooedmonk]

As for his cat stance, he's obviously posing for a picture, so cut the guy some slack, really I can't believe the number of snobs on this forum. :rolleyes:I am not being a snob.

There is a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things. If he is just posing then shouldn't he want the best pictures possible to represent himself?

With that collapsed knee and rolled ankle it shows an imbalance within the kinetic chain. There are muscles and tendons that should not be tight and weak in this stance that obviously are. His left foot should not be where it is located.He has a weak base of support and this would be the first thing I would go after in a fight.

The left shoulder,hip, knee, and ankle should be in direct alignment for there to be any strength in this stance.

[tattooedmonk]

GM The' has admitted he took lessons from some other teachers even in Indonesia. What's wrong with a little cross-training? That's an awesome combo, IMO.Of course not. I do it all the time. It is fun and informative.:D:cool:

[Lamassu]

I am not being a snob.

There is a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things. If he is just posing then shouldn't he want the best pictures possible to represent himself?

With that collapsed knee and rolled ankle it shows an imbalance within the kinetic chain. There are muscles and tendons that should not be tight and weak in this stance that obviously are. His left foot should not be where it is located.He has a weak base of support and this would be the first thing I would go after in a fight.

The left shoulder,hip, knee, and ankle should be in direct alignment for there to be any strength in this stance.

Then why don't you just contact the guy and tell him he sux? Honestly, that would be better than smirking "behind" his back, that's what valley girls do.

[tattooedmonk]

Then why don't you just contact the guy and tell him he sux? Honestly, that would be better than smirking "behind" his back, that's what valley girls do.Why are you taking offense to my post?? I am not smirking behind his back. This is an open forum and I am speaking the truth. If the truth hurts......

Do you have experience in what Valley Girls do!?!!? Like omagosh!! Totally!!!

I did not say he SUX

[Lamassu]

Why are you taking offense to my post?? I am not smirking behind his back. This is an open forum and I am speaking the truth. If the truth hurts......

I'm not offended, and your description of a cat stance is accurate, but in your earlier posts you start bashing the guy, which is kind of sad since he isn't on this forum to defend himself. It's like making fun of a quadraplegic and where's the fun in that? :confused:


Do you have experience in what Valley Girls do!?!!? Like omagosh!! Totally!!!

Well if either of us had any experience in what valley girls do...you ARE in Cali. :p

[arinathos.valin]

Do we all get some kind of prize if this thread gets to 500 pages?

A few thoughts on previous postings...

KC... the Wudang monastery is, according to legend, the birthplace of the internal martial arts. It's a Taoist temple... which has a different philosophy than the Buddhist underpinnings of the Shaolin temple. I haven't been able to find any reference to a "Shaolin Wudang" temple except in the "Shaolin-do: Secrets of the Temple" book, which is not the most reliable source I've seen. If you've got another source, please let me know.


Lamassu... you asked a while ago how SD looks different from TCMA. I'm going to cite one example that one can compare with current videos out there. The internal concept of 'silk-reeling', the spiralling of the body and limbs to aid the creation of 'fa jing' power. Although it is seems to be emphasized in Chen Taiji and Bagua, I think it is manifest to at least some degree in the external arts as well. It contributes to the fluidity and 'whipping' motions of TCMA. If one compares the following bagua clips, one can see that one practitioner has it... the other one doesn't.

Luo Jinhua
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM

M. Gary Grooms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzD7ZS

[tattooedmonk]

I'm not offended, and your description of a cat stance is accurate, but in your earlier posts you start bashing the guy, which is kind of sad since he isn't on this forum to defend himself. It's like making fun of a quadraplegic and where's the fun in that? :confused:



Well if either of us had any experience in what valley girls do...you ARE in Cali. :pSorry you took it that way. And the only experience I have in what Valley girls do is me!!;):p

[Lamassu]

Lamassu... you asked a while ago how SD looks different from TCMA. I'm going to cite one example that one can compare with current videos out there. The internal concept of 'silk-reeling', the spiralling of the body and limbs to aid the creation of 'fa jing' power. Although it is seems to be emphasized in Chen Taiji and Bagua, I think it is manifest to at least some degree in the external arts as well. It contributes to the fluidity and 'whipping' motions of TCMA. If one compares the following bagua clips, one can see that one practitioner has it... the other one doesn't.

Luo Jinhua
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM

M. Gary Grooms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzD7ZS

AT LAST!!! Thank you for something specific concerning the discrepency between SD and TCMA! :) Why is it no one else bothered explaining this to me? I'm familiar with the internal concept of 'silk-reeling' and must admit I found it lacking when I was first taught pa kua chang. It's something I'm trying to implement into my forms to this day. I have a question: do external CMA's incorporate 'silk-reeling' in their forms or is it only found in internal CMAs?

As for the video clips, I couldn't make a proper comparison because the link for M. Gary Grooms is a 'malformed link'.

[sean_stonehart]

Hey I know that guy well and I will tell you it is about the money made from the fad of BJJ not the style

So there's no truth to the statement made by TTM when he said



This would explain why it is that all these guys have to get "Real" martial training and fighting from non Chinese arts.


in this thread? http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=788751&postcount=6137

But yet... http://www.texaskungfu.com/photogallery/index.html

in the Jiujitsu gallery shows him suited up in BJJ blue gi & white belt instead of he black SD gi & black belt in the other pic? One looks for posterity & one looks like class. His bio states he's a blue belt in Carlson Gracie BJJ.

http://www.texaskungfu.com/school/instructors.html

Mind you I'm not knocking the guy, but I'm pulling this out to get a straight answer.

(Also, Lexington used to offer Judo on Fridays too but that's off the website now)



and as far as the stance is concerned that is not a Karate Niko Ashi Dachi for sure it isnt Karate at all unless Kara te is China Hand. I will debate the difference of SD to Karate any day so bring on the examples so I can destroy them KC

Where do you want to start?

Check your PMs.

[kwaichang]

In Lexington I am told Judo was taught there but the story I heard was a respectful Judo player needed a place to teach and in the true MA spirit the gym was made available to him out of the kindness of SD heart. I think we all can learn a lesson from this.
As far as the SD teacher in the pic and website there are many misguided people in the world. He chooses to study an art JJ that he feels is lacking in SD . I on the otherhand could care less about JJ as I have all I need and more in SD. Remember the fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither. Do not judge a complete style by one or two people. KC

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Lamassu;788806]AT LAST!!! Thank you for something specific concerning the discrepency between SD and TCMA! :) Why is it no one else bothered explaining this to me? I'm familiar with the internal concept of 'silk-reeling' and must admit I found it lacking when I was first taught pa kua chang.

Too bad.....that falls back on your teacher
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

In Lexington I am told Judo was taught there but the story I heard was a respectful Judo player needed a place to teach and in the true MA spirit the gym was made available to him out of the kindness of SD heart. I think we all can learn a lesson from this.
As far as the SD teacher in the pic and website there are many misguided people in the world. He chooses to study an art JJ that he feels is lacking in SD . I on the otherhand could care less about JJ as I have all I need and more in SD. Remember the fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither. Do not judge a complete style by one or two people. KCI feel the same way. I use what I have learned from SD against all other arts...it works quite well.:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

[QUOTE=Lamassu;788806]AT LAST!!! Thank you for something specific concerning the discrepency between SD and TCMA! :) Why is it no one else bothered explaining this to me? I'm familiar with the internal concept of 'silk-reeling' and must admit I found it lacking when I was first taught pa kua chang.

Too bad.....that falls back on your teacher
BQ:eek::confused::eek::confused:

[arinathos.valin]

Sorry about the screwed up link...

Here's another try.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzD7ZSATM

If that doesn't work, do a search for "Classical Pakua" on YouTube...

Cheers,
Evan

[DPL]

Heaven, Man, Earth 3-Gate Open SHUT Method
4-Gates theory/method
6-Gates theory/method
3 Harmonies
6 Harmonies
Chain/repeating
14 Bridges
ADHERING Bridge(s)
DESTROYING Bridge(s)
MERIDIAN footwork
7-Star footwork
Bagua footwork
Kick, Punch, Wrestle, Seize

I've been busy at work and this got sort of lost with all the merging, etc. recently, but I'd like to dive into this a bit more.

The original question was what is absolutely essential to study for something to be considered a true Chinese Martial art and above was the answer.

My question now to both SD'ers and non-SD'ers - do you study any or all of these? If not, which ones do you not do?

[arinathos.valin]

For the sake of complete honesty regarding the bagua clips I posted, I should say that I learned the Jiang Bagua form through my SD instructor. He was, I think, better than many of the other SDers in the realm of internal styles, but like lamassu, I never got any of the 'silk reeling' concepts from my original bagua training.

I should, however, say that my previous SD training with the Jiang Bagua form has made it easier to 're-learn' the form with some of the subtleties I'm finding in forms by Luo Jinhua, Ted Mancuso, and Gerald Sharp. I would expect that learning the Jiang form from scratch would have been far more difficult.

Regarding 'silk reeling' in the external styles, I think that the external CMA styles may not calll it by that term, but the spiralling, whipping body action is present in at least a rudimentary fashion in many of the forms. Now that I've been 'keyed in' on the concept, I've been seeing some of it in the internal and external forms.

Now, that isn't to say that SD external forms don't have this type of body movement, but at least in the tournaments that I've been to, I haven't seen it to the degree that I've seen it in other CMA demonstrations...

[The Xia]

Take this SD video.
http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28
And compare it with this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VQW55fdJxA
Don't you see a big difference between the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen done by Chiu Chi Ling vs. the SD version?

[arinathos.valin]

A few more thoughts on some of the recent postings... I'm on vacation and my wife's asleep, so I have a bit more time to blab on the computer. :)

Some of the posters have really made a ruckus about lineage. A few SD devotees have stated that the lineage issue is not that important to them, and they can't understand why others seem to keep bashing the history of SD.

In the TCMA culture, lineage is a BIG deal. Part of it is the Confucian ancestor worship thing, part of it is the idea that great martial artists are more likely to come from great lineages. When an outside school claims to be part of a lineage and is really not, others tend to get really hot under the collar about it. As an example, I imagine that lkfmdc, who has a traceable, impressive lineage, may unconsiously consider it an insult that such an 'inferior' art would deign to call themselves the true Shaolin inheritor. and consider it a moral obligation to point out the errors of those who have what he considers to be a false lineage-sometimes in a very direct way...

I still am unsure of the intent of some of the anti-SD posters out there, though. If the intent is to get under the skin of some of the more devout SD practitioners, I think they are succeeding quite well. If their intent is to change minds, however, I think they're failing miserably.

People who have invested years, sometimes decades of their life on one endeavour usually don't take kindly to people who call their effort a load of ****. Even if the evidence is rock-solid, true believers will find a way to minimize it, discount it, or ignore it. It's even easier to dismiss the evidence if the person giving the evidence is hostile or condescending. I've seen it happen with religion, ideology, party affiliation, and with martial arts. One might see the same defensiveness on lkfmdc's part if one were to confront him with the idea that his art is almost worthless, as you'd get more fitness and self defense bang-for-your-buck if you just ran a few marathons and packed a concealed firearm.

I actually have a great deal of respect for many SDers who have seen the evidence that the anti-SDers offer, realize the validity of the arguments, and continue to train with SD because it suits their needs. I might actually be one of those had my work schedule been more compatible with the class times. The fact is that SD does indeed offer a way to keep fit, and to learn a martial art in a fun atmosphere with good people. Ultimately, that's probably what is most important. Unfortunately, all of the discrepancies, and the excuses for those discrepancies, is what keeps this forum entry chugging towards the 500 page mark...

[arinathos.valin]

Take this SD video.
http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28
And compare it with this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VQW55fdJxA
Don't you see a big difference between the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen done by Chiu Chi Ling vs. the SD version?


You know, that CSC SD video keeps on popping up... and I have to keep stopping myself from banging my head against the wall every time I see it...:(

[tattooedmonk]

Take this SD video.
http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28
And compare it with this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VQW55fdJxA
Don't you see a big difference between the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen done by Chiu Chi Ling vs. the SD version?LMAO !! I have great issue with this particular form as well. I see NO visable evidence that they are the same form . I learned this form about 10-12 years ago from CSC Master S.Soard. I learned it more like the way Chiu Chi Ling did it. Over the last few years I noticed that the Soards did not care so much about quality as they did quantity. It is all about the number$!!!

[tattooedmonk]

To me, the issue with Shaolin Do is not that “it’s not CMA” and “It looks like Karate.” I actually feel that some CMA styles look more like some non-CMA styles then they do some other CMA styles. For example, I feel that Shuai Jiao looks a lot more like Jujutsu then it does Wing Chun. So it’s not an issue of “not looking like CMA” for me. The lineage doesn’t add up. The forms that I have seen listed in SD (and that I have not seen played as they are intended to be), are not all Shaolin. The timeline doesn’t add up to what is known about the Fukien Temple, and the story doesn't match any other Southern Shaolin Kung Fu lineages' stories I've heard. But besides this, when I see SD play forms, I see loads of mistakes (everything from clunky transitions, poor stances, flailing arms and legs, improper hand formations, and more). I’m not impressed with other aspects of SD training I've seen either. I saw great danger in an iron palm attempt in one video. To me, Shaolin Do doesn’t look like Karate, to me, it just looks bad.I agree on some of your points,but do not condemn us all because of the performances of a few.

[tattooedmonk]

You know, that CSC SD video keeps on popping up... and I have to keep stopping myself from banging my head against the wall every time I see it...:(Me too!! This can hurt a great deal after awhile.:D:eek::cool:

[Judge Pen]

Take this SD video.
http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28
And compare it with this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VQW55fdJxA
Don't you see a big difference between the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen done by Chiu Chi Ling vs. the SD version?

If you are talking about the version that the CSC site displayed in their "Advanced Black Demonstration" then yes I do. As I've said, I know SD's Tiger-Crane very well, but I have trouble recognizing that form in that demonstration.

As far as the difference in the in the form as taught to me and Chiu Chi Ling's version, I can see the form is essentially the same, move for move. We do a low horse stance at the begining during the tension movements and the opening is slightly different in the hand positions. There's more tension in CCL's version, but not a whole lot more. There are differences, but not to the point where the form or the underlying principles are disconnected from the two.

[Judge Pen]

A few more thoughts on some of the recent postings... I'm on vacation and my wife's asleep, so I have a bit more time to blab on the computer. :)

Some of the posters have really made a ruckus about lineage. A few SD devotees have stated that the lineage issue is not that important to them, and they can't understand why others seem to keep bashing the history of SD.

In the TCMA culture, lineage is a BIG deal. Part of it is the Confucian ancestor worship thing, part of it is the idea that great martial artists are more likely to come from great lineages. When an outside school claims to be part of a lineage and is really not, others tend to get really hot under the collar about it. As an example, I imagine that lkfmdc, who has a traceable, impressive lineage, may unconsiously consider it an insult that such an 'inferior' art would deign to call themselves the true Shaolin inheritor. and consider it a moral obligation to point out the errors of those who have what he considers to be a false lineage-sometimes in a very direct way...

I still am unsure of the intent of some of the anti-SD posters out there, though. If the intent is to get under the skin of some of the more devout SD practitioners, I think they are succeeding quite well. If their intent is to change minds, however, I think they're failing miserably.

People who have invested years, sometimes decades of their life on one endeavour usually don't take kindly to people who call their effort a load of ****. Even if the evidence is rock-solid, true believers will find a way to minimize it, discount it, or ignore it. It's even easier to dismiss the evidence if the person giving the evidence is hostile or condescending. I've seen it happen with religion, ideology, party affiliation, and with martial arts. One might see the same defensiveness on lkfmdc's part if one were to confront him with the idea that his art is almost worthless, as you'd get more fitness and self defense bang-for-your-buck if you just ran a few marathons and packed a concealed firearm.

I actually have a great deal of respect for many SDers who have seen the evidence that the anti-SDers offer, realize the validity of the arguments, and continue to train with SD because it suits their needs. I might actually be one of those had my work schedule been more compatible with the class times. The fact is that SD does indeed offer a way to keep fit, and to learn a martial art in a fun atmosphere with good people. Ultimately, that's probably what is most important. Unfortunately, all of the discrepancies, and the excuses for those discrepancies, is what keeps this forum entry chugging towards the 500 page mark...

I appreciate your posts. As far as lineage, my respect goes back as far as I can verify. That is my teacher, his father/teacher, GM Sin The, Hiang The, GGM Ie Chang Ming and his collegues in Indonesia. After that, I don't really know so the issue becomes less important to me. If Su Kong was 'real' then great. If he wasn't and we are taught a collection of material from different parts of China and learned from different teachers who moved to Inonesia, then that's great too.

[Baqualin]

I saw great danger in an iron palm attempt in one video. To me, Shaolin Do doesn’t look like Karate, to me, it just looks bad.

Hey Xia,
Thanks for stopping in...always enjoy your post!
1) what iron palm video did you see.....we have an excellent iron palm training program...that is very safe....I've been doing it for a few years and it has even helped fight off the beginnings of arthritis......to look at me you would never know I do it.

[Baqualin]

I appreciate your posts. As far as lineage, my respect goes back as far as I can verify. That is my teacher, his father/teacher, GM Sin The, Hiang The, GGM Ie Chang Ming and his collegues in Indonesia. After that, I don't really know so the issue becomes less important to me. If Su Kong was 'real' then great. If he wasn't and we are taught a collection of material from different parts of China and learned from different teachers who moved to Inonesia, then that's great too.

That's pretty much the way I feel JP....I also agree with TTM's statement "don't condemn an entire system based on a few bad performances":)
BQ

[jit fu]

buffets are good if you're really hungry and are low on money, but if you realy want a great meal its better to go to a reputable fine eatery that specializes in one or two particular cuisines.:D

[Baqualin]

buffets are good if you're really hungry and are low on money, but if you realy want a great meal its better to go to a reputable fine eatery that specializes in one or two particular cuisines.:D

Most schools out there today are buffets...even the MOST vocal against us are buffets...check out their websites.....probally even your school:eek:.....Kung Fu..Tai Chi.....MMA....BJJ....Maui Tai....Sanda......Krav magna........Wu Shu...Kempo....Wing Chung.....Mantis.....Choy Li Fu....head instructor has 10 blackbelts in all of the above and more.....that's lineage trees with a lot of limbs......and people get on us for being spread to thin....at least we've had the same basic program for 40+ years:D

[Lamassu]

Most schools out there today are buffets...even the MOST vocal against us are buffets...check out their websites.....probally even your school:eek:.....Kung Fu..Tai Chi.....MMA....BJJ....Maui Tai....Sanda......Krav magna........Wu Shu...Kempo....Wing Chung.....Mantis.....Choy Li Fu....head instructor has 10 blackbelts in all of the above and more.....that's lineage trees with a lot of limbs......and people get on us for being spread to thin....at least we've had the same basic program for 40+ years:D

Amen brother.

[sean_stonehart]

Most schools out there today are buffets...even the MOST vocal against us are buffets...check out their websites.....probally even your school:eek:.....Kung Fu..Tai Chi.....MMA....BJJ....Maui Tai....Sanda......Krav magna........Wu Shu...Kempo....Wing Chung.....Mantis.....Choy Li Fu....head instructor has 10 blackbelts in all of the above and more.....that's lineage trees with a lot of limbs......and people get on us for being spread to thin....at least we've had the same basic program for 40+ years:D

Many, not most & certainly not all.

Most TCMA schools teach one or two things only. Mine only teaches CLF & Yang Taiji. That's it. No other training involved. My teacher used to teach one other art until he gave it up in favor of CLF solely. No black belts, no massive lineage tree. Two things done as well as can be done & expected of a person dividing time between 2 arts with complete, unfettered training programs.

Your same basic program for 40 years is to be commended for it's steadfastness to be sure, but steadfastness to what? A smidge of this, a crumb of that, a whiff of something else passing over the top of the pot it's all cooked in with no backbone of any single ingredient.

[jit fu]

uhh, no. the ones who are reputable are not. :rolleyes: when one takes 2 forms from "x" style, then 3 from another, 1 from here, another 3-4 from there, it is not possible to perform or train any correctly. every system (style) has its own methods, stances, delivery system, energy, this is a fact. one can not play them all the same way, unless you just like learning forms. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

uhh, no. the ones who are reputable are not. :rolleyes: when one takes 2 forms from "x" style, then 3 from another, 1 from here, another 3-4 from there, it is not possible to perform or train any correctly. every system (style) has its own methods, stances, delivery system, energy, this is a fact. one can not play them all the same way, unless you just like learning forms. :p

Not really correct, you can take various forms from different systems to train different attributes.
I know a Okinawan Goju guy that teaches Taiji as part of his curriculm.

Its "easier" to take forms from different systems with the same "core" like sanchin from Goju and Sam jin ( or however you wanna spell it) from Fukien White Crane and the Iron wire from Hung Gar, its a little trickier when you are doing things in a more complexe way and looking to develop different energy pathways and structures.

You just don't teach one until the other is "ingrained".

[jit fu]

everyone is entitled to there opinions...i stand by mine. say one learned wing chun for 6 months from a friend informally while at the same time learning mi zhong form his sifu for the last 2 years. he is also moon lighting at the local college learning chen tai chi 1x a week for last 2 months. sure he could try to incorporate this into that, but at the end of the day he's not at a level to do so because he isn't proficient in any of the three. even if he was at a sifu level this would be more or less chop suey. it takes a good instructor and many years of training to "get it". better to have one really sharp knife than 5 dull ones.;)

[MasterKiller]

at least we've had the same basic program for 40+ years:D

No you haven't. Didn't the big forms explosion happen in the 80s when Sin The' came back from a trip to Indonesia?

[sanjuro_ronin]

everyone is entitled to there opinions...i stand by mine. say one learned wing chun for 6 months from a friend informally while at the same time learning mi zhong form his sifu for the last 2 years. he is also moon lighting at the local college learning chen tai chi 1x a week for last 2 months. sure he could try to incorporate this into that, but at the end of the day he's not at a level to do so because he isn't proficient in any of the three. even if he was at a sifu level this would be more or less chop suey. it takes a good instructor and many years of training to "get it". better to have one really sharp knife than 5 dull ones.;)

You need to read the last part of my post:


You just don't teach one until the other is "ingrained".

[Baqualin]

Many, not most & certainly not all.

Most TCMA schools teach one or two things only. Mine only teaches CLF & Yang Taiji. That's it. No other training involved. My teacher used to teach one other art until he gave it up in favor of CLF solely. No black belts, no massive lineage tree. Two things done as well as can be done & expected of a person dividing time between 2 arts with complete, unfettered training programs.

Your same basic program for 40 years is to be commended for it's steadfastness to be sure, but steadfastness to what? A smidge of this, a crumb of that, a whiff of something else passing over the top of the pot it's all cooked in with no backbone of any single ingredient.

To what.....Shaolin Do.....not CLF, Mantis or anything else.....Shaolin Do.....white to black...... after that you can start to specialize in what's available at this time.......I'm SD & I only teach & study Tai Chi, Pakua, & Hsing I...nothing else and will spend the rest of my life devoted to that part of SD & believe me what I'm learning is not a smidge
BQ:)

[Baqualin]

No you haven't. Didn't the big forms explosion happen in the 80s when Sin The' came back from a trip to Indonesia?

Read MK...I said BASIC program...white to black:rolleyes:

[sean_stonehart]

To what.....Shaolin Do.....not CLF, Mantis or anything else.....Shaolin Do.....white to black...... after that you can start to specialize in what's available at this time.......I'm SD & I only teach & study Tai Chi, Pakua, & Hsing I...nothing else and will spend the rest of my life devoted to that part of SD & believe me what I'm learning is not a smidge
BQ:)

How can you specialize in something that's incomplete?

In SD there are (all last I heard)

3 Taiji forms

Yang/Cheng Man Ching - 37 Posture
Chen Xin Jia Yi Lu - 83 Posture
PRC 24 Step

3 Bagua forms

Classical (Jiang Rong jiao)
8 Animal (Su Lu Tang probably)
Dragon

Xingyi
5 Roads
12 Animals
Linkage
Paired Set



plus weapons, push hands, odd set here & there, etc...

Is the foundation for just one of them there completely... from start to finish?? The answer is no. It's some forms & exercises that could be found anywhere from books to seminars to learning from a friend or teacher. It's not complete. Nothing is there completely in training routines, in basics (very basics), etc... pieces yes, but not all for both internal & external training.

[jit fu]

sanjuro,

imho ingrained is not good enough. some feel the same way some do not. no big deal. to each his own. :cool:

[Baqualin]

How can you specialize in something that's incomplete?

In SD there are (all last I heard)

3 Taiji forms

Yang/Cheng Man Ching - 37 Posture
Chen Xin Jia Yi Lu - 83 Posture
PRC 24 Step

3 Bagua forms

Classical (Jiang Rong jiao)
8 Animal (Su Lu Tang probably)Not Sun Lu Tangs!
Dragon

Xingyi
5 Roads
12 Animals
Linkage
Paired Set



plus weapons, push hands, odd set here & there, etc...

Is the foundation for just one of them there completely... from start to finish?? The answer is no. It's some forms & exercises that could be found anywhere from books to seminars to learning from a friend or teacher. It's not complete. Nothing is there completely in training routines, in basics (very basics), etc... pieces yes, but not all for both internal & external training.

Sorry Sean but your list is very incomplete..I know you studied SD, but...do you study at my school......do you take classes under me.....how do you know what and how we teach......the FOUNDATION is there for all 3......form wise Hsing I & Pakua we have the most...but the training and FOUNDATIONS are there for all three. If you think you just go to class and learn forms, your way off.
BQ

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro,

imho ingrained is not good enough. some feel the same way some do not. no big deal. to each his own. :cool:

So you don't believe in cross -training?

[Baqualin]

buffets are good if you're really hungry and are low on money, but if you realy want a great meal its better to go to a reputable fine eatery that specializes in one or two particular cuisines.:D

Hey jit what is Choy Li Fut:cool:
BQ

[jit fu]

sr,
when i was younger, not so much now.

bql,

with 900 forms, you guys dont have that one?;):p

[Baqualin]

sr,
when i was younger, not so much now.

bql,

with 900 forms, you guys dont have that one?;):p

Answer my question:)
BQ

[jit fu]

soon as you answer mine about the proper ettiquete of how to shake a masters hand...;):D oh yeah you said bow... that wasn't the question.

[Judge Pen]

soon as you answer mine about the proper ettiquete of how to shake a masters hand...;):D oh yeah you said bow... that wasn't the question.

How do you shake a master's hand? A master of what?

[Baqualin]

soon as you answer mine about the proper ettiquete of how to shake a masters hand...;):D oh yeah you said bow... that wasn't the question.

With my hand....I'm sure that varies from school to school:D

Now answer mine:)
BQ

[jit fu]

for instance you're at a tournament or gathering of some kind. your sifu introduces you to a friend/colleague of his who happens to be a master (sifu, ect).

[Baqualin]

for instance you're at a tournament or gathering of some kind. your sifu introduces you to a friend/colleague of his who happens to be a master (sifu, ect).

As I said I would first bow, as we were taught, then if he reached out to shake my hand I would shake his with mine.....now if there's a universal super secret kung fu hand shake, I don't know...maybe that's part of Choy Li Fut
I answered your question, answer mine
BQ

[Judge Pen]

for instance you're at a tournament or gathering of some kind. your sifu introduces you to a friend/colleague of his who happens to be a master (sifu, ect).

A tai chi master?
A CLF master?
A Xing Yi Master?
A Wu Shu Master?

Born in America or China?

I'll profess ignorance, but I've never shaken hands of a Master outside of my style. I do find it hard to believe that there's a super-secret way to shake hands with a master of all CMA styles when we are talking about a large amount of diversity among the styles.

Personally, I would bow either first or at the same time that the handshake, but that just seems to be the right way to respond.

[jit fu]

bql,

obviously you don't know. how about the proper care for the altar? 3 branches of clf. the main branch is from king mui, futsan hung sing from there, buk sing from futsan hung sing (developed further by ggm tam saam). clf created from 3 systems, developed by founder chan heung. a cohesive and complete system. we all have gwa, sow, chop,all hands are shared by all 3 lines as we are all from same family, some have specific ways of doing them. futsan hung sing doesnt teach 2 sets of bak mei, cha kuen, 2 different tai chi's, bagua, hsing yi. buk sing clf doesnt either. nor does chan family. clf is taught as clf. nice try tho. :rolleyes:

[jit fu]

bql,

its not a secret kung fu handshake, but a cultural thing. things you dont know or have.

[Judge Pen]

How do you shake the hand of a master from Indonesia?

[jit fu]

jp,

it's a cultural thing, if he's from china then i can help you out. i'll clarify a CHINESE master, as i practice tcma.

[Lamassu]

bql,

obviously you don't know. how about the proper care for the altar? 3 branches of clf. the main branch is from king mui, futsan hung sing from there, buk sing from futsan hung sing (developed further by ggm tam saam). clf created from 3 systems, developed by founder chan heung. a cohesive and complete system. we all have gwa, sow, chop,all hands are shared by all 3 lines as we are all from same family, some have specific ways of doing them. futsan hung sing doesnt teach 2 sets of bak mei, cha kuen, 2 different tai chi's, bagua, hsing yi. buk sing clf doesnt either. nor does chan family. clf is taught as clf. nice try tho. :rolleyes:

snob. :rolleyes:

[jit fu]

snob. :rolleyes:

dolt:eek::p

[Baqualin]

bql,

obviously you don't know. how about the proper care for the altar? 3 branches of clf. the main branch is from king mui, futsan hung sing from there, buk sing from futsan hung sing (developed further by ggm tam saam). clf created from 3 systems, developed by founder chan heung. a cohesive and complete system. we all have gwa, sow, chop,all hands are shared by all 3 lines as we are all from same family, some have specific ways of doing them. futsan hung sing doesnt teach 2 sets of bak mei, cha kuen, 2 different tai chi's, bagua, hsing yi. buk sing clf doesnt either. nor does chan family. clf is taught as clf. nice try tho. :rolleyes:

BINGO.....THREE SYSTEMS into one complete system......soup....all same family....northern & southern:confused:

Also claimed as a traditional Shaolin Martial Art

[Judge Pen]

jp,

it's a cultural thing, if he's from china then i can help you out. i'll clarify a CHINESE master, as i practice tcma.

I've met masters of CMA (outside of SD) that are not chinese. If its a cultural thing then it isn't a martial thing (although there may be some overlap).

[KungFu Student]

The real question is how a handshake makes you into a superior martial artist?

[Lamassu]

The real question is how a handshake makes you into a superior martial artist?

It doesn't, but you appear like you're validating your authority to bash someone's martial art you know nothing about. You know, a snob.

[sean_stonehart]

I hate posting like this but it's the easiest way to make sure I answer your questions... sorry about the posting style...



Sorry Sean but your list is very incomplete..

No worries it is what it is based on what I saw, experienced, read in a book & still see on websites ... so what'd I miss??


I know you studied SD,

For a minute or two...


but...do you study at my school

Not without a helluva commute time...


do you take classes under me

See above


how do you know what and how we teach

I've seen students & seniors students from Lexington


the FOUNDATION is there for all 3

Where? When is it taught? Day one?


form wise Hsing I & Pakua we have the most

Most what?


but the training and FOUNDATIONS are there for all three.

Again, where?


If you think you just go to class and learn forms, your way off.
BQ

Oh no not at all. It was SD's attempt at teaching forms from styles it has no concept of a proper training regimine in ... unless teachers went elsewhere to pick up pointers & methods lacking in the existing curriculum or being held back until reaching a "master" level.

[Baqualin]

I hate posting like this but it's the easiest way to make sure I answer your questions... sorry about the posting style...




No worries it is what it is based on what I saw, experienced, read in a book & still see on websites ... so what'd I miss??



For a minute or two...



Not without a helluva commute time...



See above



I've seen students & seniors students from Lexington



Where? When is it taught? Day one?



Most what?



Again, where?



Oh no not at all. It was SD's attempt at teaching forms from styles it has no concept of a proper training regimine in ... unless teachers went elsewhere to pick up pointers & methods lacking in the existing curriculum or being held back until reaching a "master" level.


Sorry Sean....I'm at work like the rest of us and blown out ....will respond later today.
Take Care BQ

Will respond to Shane also...got to go.

[sean_stonehart]

BINGO.....THREE SYSTEMS into one complete system......soup....all same family....northern & southern:confused:

Also claimed as a traditional Shaolin Martial Art


Ummm... yeah... 3 different styles... combined into a single, cohesive style with unified practices on everything from start to finish. Not a little here done like this... a little here done like that... a little bit extra for good measure. Everything from day 1 is the same in CLF.

Also... not passing itself off as something it's not. It's Southern Shaolin MA.

Chan Heung's teachers, Chan Yuen Woo, Li Yau San & Choy Fook were all Shaolin trained... maybe even a real Shaolin monk!!!! But none ever claimed to be "the Grandmaster" or other such stuff. They were Shaolin trained fighters.

That's about as far as that fish can go.

[sean_stonehart]

Sorry Sean....I'm at work like the rest of us and blown out ....will respond later today.
Take Care BQ

Will respond to Shane also...got to go.

Me too... have fun!

[jit fu]

BINGO.....THREE SYSTEMS into one complete system......soup....all same family....northern & southern:confused:

Also claimed as a traditional Shaolin Martial Art

i'll write this reaaaallll slow for you. chan heung had 3 teachers, he took what he had learned and combined what he thought was the best that the 3 offered. codified it into 1 comprehensive system with him (chan heung) being the founder. he created the system from the knowledge pool he had . ergo, everything done in clf is clf. he didn't take li yau san's system and teach 2-3 forms from it, nor did he take a form from chan yuen woo and teach it, he created his own and gave it the ging, stances, hands accross the board, ie he codified it so it could be constantly refined. he however didnt create clf then decide to buddy with his contemporaries and add a few forms from there systems to make his system grow more.clf teaches clf forms, clf techniques, clf history, clf internal, clf chi gung. it didnt need any other outside input. :)

[jit fu]

I've met masters of CMA (outside of SD) that are not chinese. If its a cultural thing then it isn't a martial thing (although there may be some overlap).

maybe they were testing you...to see if you knew. you not being there students, its not there job to correct you. that would be rude. i appreciate your courtesy tho. however the kung fu and the culture is intertwined, so they do go hand in hand.

[tattooedmonk]

I guess you have not heard about the reason theses things are not taught in our school?? Like I said before ,and with the mentality of some of the people in this group I will have to say again, SD went to Indonesia and adopted different traditions. All of the Chinese outward appearences were removed from the system while it was there.

What part of this is hard to understand??

Secret hand shakes?? You have got to be kidding me.

The alter prayers, lion dances, and such?? This maybe important in certain schools, but I have been to a lot of CMA schools and not all of them have one or practice these cultural rituals. Mostly because of religious beliefs. They are part of the culture not the martial practices.They have only been married to these practices for a short time.

[tattooedmonk]

maybe they were testing you...to see if you knew. you not being there students, its not there job to correct you. that would be rude. i appreciate your courtesy tho. however the kung fu and the culture is intertwined, so they do go hand in hand.
BS. I know a few Chinese people and they make it their business to correct you on many thngs that you are doing incorrect.Things that you might think are just trivial and non-intrinsic

[Baqualin]

I hate posting like this but it's the easiest way to make sure I answer your questions... sorry about the posting style...

No problem!


No worries it is what it is based on what I saw, experienced, read in a book & still see on websites ... so what'd I miss??

PM me your email & I'll send you the complete Internal curriculum...not a secret just to many letters to fit here

For a minute or two...



Not without a helluva commute time...



See above



I've seen students & seniors students from Lexington

We have weekend warriors here too.....their very healthy though:)



Where? When is it taught? Day one?

starting with day one in the internal classes



Most what?
Forms & Weapons...applications & chi kung are taught across the board and before you say it....yes each system has it's own chi kung and app.s



Again, where?
Starting with day one in the internal classes...unless I'm misunderstanding you.



Oh no not at all. It was SD's attempt at teaching forms from styles it has no concept of a proper training regimine in
EML & EMS have really good concepts in training
... unless teachers went elsewhere to pick up pointers & methods lacking in the existing curriculum or being held back until reaching a "master" level.

All of the internal at one time was 1st Black belt material and up....alot wasn't taught until you got into the upper ranks...that is one thing that has changed with the internal program...at least here. If I haven't answered your questions....hit me back more specifically.:)
BQ

[Baqualin]

i'll write this reaaaallll slow for you. chan heung had 3 teachers, he took what he had learned and combined what he thought was the best that the 3 offered. codified it into 1 comprehensive system with him (chan heung) being the founder. he created the system from the knowledge pool he had . ergo, everything done in clf is clf. he didn't take li yau san's system and teach 2-3 forms from it, nor did he take a form from chan yuen woo and teach it, he created his own and gave it the ging, stances, hands accross the board, ie he codified it so it could be constantly refined. he however didnt create clf then decide to buddy with his contemporaries and add a few forms from there systems to make his system grow more.clf teaches clf forms, clf techniques, clf history, clf internal, clf chi gung. it didnt need any other outside input. :)

Although known as a Southern style, Choy Li Fut has its origins in both Northern and Southern China. Since the system's founder had three teachers, two from the South and one from the North, Chan Heung decided to combine the teachings of all three masters into one system. Thus, Choy Li Fut is one of the few kung-fu styles that contains techniques from both Northern and Southern Chinese martial arts.

No outside input?

[Baqualin]

i'll write this reaaaallll slow for you. chan heung had 3 teachers, he took what he had learned and combined what he thought was the best that the 3 offered. codified it into 1 comprehensive system with him (chan heung) being the founder. he created the system from the knowledge pool he had . ergo, everything done in clf is clf. he didn't take li yau san's system and teach 2-3 forms from it, nor did he take a form from chan yuen woo and teach it, he created his own and gave it the ging, stances, hands accross the board, ie he codified it so it could be constantly refined. he however didnt create clf then decide to buddy with his contemporaries and add a few forms from there systems to make his system grow more.clf teaches clf forms, clf techniques, clf history, clf internal, clf chi gung. it didnt need any other outside input. :)

Chan Heung was shocked when Choy Fok pointed to a large rock weighing about eighty pounds, and told him to kick it twelve feet. Bracing himself, the student exerted all of his strength as his foot crashed against the rock, sending it barely twelve feet away. Instead of giving the expected compliment, Choy Fok placed his foot under the heavy rock and effortlessly propelled it through the air. Chan Heung was awestruck by this demonstration of superpower.

No legends here:confused:
Must believe all

[Baqualin]

Not sure if I know how to use the quote feature right because I don't post much. Hope I didn't screw that up.

Baqualin, I was wondering what the SD foundation training (as mentioned above) is for Baguazhang. I'm not involved in the big argument here, I was just curious.

Shane

Stepping drills, breathing & meditation, Actually learning and applying the 64 rules of classical Baqua, chi kung, coiling exercises, baqua sparring techniques, strength training, applications, fai jing training, blk sash & up iron bone training (optional), Baqua push hands ( 2man set), post training
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

BINGO.....THREE SYSTEMS into one complete system......soup....all same family....northern & southern:confused:

Also claimed as a traditional Shaolin Martial Art:eek:;):p:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Stepping drills, breathing & meditation, Actually learning and applying the 64 rules of classical Baqua, chi kung, coiling exercises, baqua sparring techniques, strength training, applications, fai jing training, blk sash & up iron bone training (optional), Baqua push hands ( 2man set), post training
BQ:eek:;):p:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Although known as a Southern style, Choy Li Fut has its origins in both Northern and Southern China. Since the system's founder had three teachers, two from the South and one from the North, Chan Heung decided to combine the teachings of all three masters into one system. Thus, Choy Li Fut is one of the few kung-fu styles that contains techniques from both Northern and Southern Chinese martial arts.

No outside input?:eek:;):p:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

pages left . At this rate we could do it by the starting of next week!!!:D

[jit fu]

I guess you have not heard about the reason theses things are not taught in our school?? Like I said before ,and with the mentality of some of the people in this group I will have to say again, SD went to Indonesia and adopted different traditions. All of the Chinese outward appearences were removed from the system while it was there.

What part of this is hard to understand??

Secret hand shakes?? You have got to be kidding me.

The alter prayers, lion dances, and such?? This maybe important in certain schools, but I have been to a lot of CMA schools and not all of them have one or practice these cultural rituals. Mostly because of religious beliefs. They are part of the culture not the martial practices.They have only been married to these practices for a short time.

really, very interesting. that's why there's a "t" in front of tcma. no secret handshake, only proper ettiquete. your school is indonesian, what would you know of a tcma school and there practices?

[jit fu]

BS. I know a few Chinese people and they make it their business to correct you on many thngs that you are doing incorrect.Things that you might think are just trivial and non-intrinsic

really, good you know a few chinese people, would they happen to be sifu's? been in the chinese community much? weekend trips to chinatown don't count.:eek:

[jit fu]

Although known as a Southern style, Choy Li Fut has its origins in both Northern and Southern China. Since the system's founder had three teachers, two from the South and one from the North, Chan Heung decided to combine the teachings of all three masters into one system. Thus, Choy Li Fut is one of the few kung-fu styles that contains techniques from both Northern and Southern Chinese martial arts.

No outside input?

are you dense? after chan heung created clf from his 3 systems he had learned, that was it. no more. he didn't add tam tui, hua, look boon dim gwun ect. thats the point. he created his sysytem and taught it. he did not add forms from other styles after he created his finished product. :confused::)

[Lamassu]

are you dense? after chan heung created clf from his 3 systems he had learned, that was it. no more. he didn't add tam tui, hua, look boon dim gwun ect. thats the point. he created his sysytem and taught it. he did not add forms from other styles after he created his finished product. :confused::)

http://flyingeagleacademy.com/clfhist.html

[tattooedmonk]

really, very interesting. that's why there's a "t" in front of tcma. no secret handshake, only proper ettiquete. your school is indonesian, what would you know of a tcma school and there practices? No , you made it sound like it was some secret hand shake.:rolleyes: Do you know what tradition or traditional actually means??? These are modern traditions that you speak of and really have nothing to do with the arts.

[tattooedmonk]

really, good you know a few chinese people, would they happen to be sifu's? been in the chinese community much? weekend trips to chinatown don't count.:eek: Yes, yes.:rolleyes:

[jit fu]

just like you train under a clf teacher last 6 months...right?

[tattooedmonk]

are you dense? after chan heung created clf from his 3 systems he had learned, that was it. no more. he didn't add tam tui, hua, look boon dim gwun ect. thats the point. he created his sysytem and taught it. he did not add forms from other styles after he created his finished product. :confused::)WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? Other people after him have though. I do not think you know very well the actual history of the Shaolin Temples. CLF is A HYBRID SYSTEM and not purely northern or southern And actually where it was created is not actually in the South.

[jit fu]

:Dhang on, i'll be right back i just popped a stitch from laughing too hard

[jit fu]

WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? Other people after him have though. I do not think you know very well the actual history of the Shaolin Temples. CLF is A HYBRID SYSTEM and not purely northern or southern And actually where it was created is not actually in the South.

please show proof...who added what form from another system to clf?

[DPL]

---------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by lkfmdc

Heaven, Man, Earth 3-Gate Open SHUT Method
4-Gates theory/method
6-Gates theory/method
3 Harmonies
6 Harmonies
Chain/repeating
14 Bridges
ADHERING Bridge(s)
DESTROYING Bridge(s)
MERIDIAN footwork
7-Star footwork
Bagua footwork
Kick, Punch, Wrestle, Seize
----------------------------------------------------
I've been busy at work and this got sort of lost with all the merging, etc. recently, but I'd like to dive into this a bit more.

The original question was what is absolutely essential to study for something to be considered a true Chinese Martial art and above was the answer.

My question now to both SD'ers and non-SD'ers - do you study any or all of these? If not, which ones do you not do?

Answers, please.

[tattooedmonk]

please show proof...who added what form from another system to clf?It appears that Sean's school teaches both CLF and Tai Ji Quan.

[Baqualin]

are you dense? after chan heung created clf from his 3 systems he had learned, that was it. no more. he didn't add tam tui, hua, look boon dim gwun ect. thats the point. he created his sysytem and taught it. he did not add forms from other styles after he created his finished product. :confused::)

He created it from 3 systems which means it's a buffet...the flavor of each original system is not the same it's a blend...just like most CMA...and it's full of legends just like most CMA......maybe not to the extent of SD but still a buffet.....Baqua is a buffet...and on and on and on....... Chan Heung might not of been Hairy, but he must of had some big b@lls to kick a 80# boulder 12 feet
I'm not cutting down CLF ( from what I've seen it's pretty cool) or comparing your traditions & legends to SD's (2 different animals) the only point is....look how you react when we attack your system & put you under a microscope...it helped since you were a little snobby to start...I'm not Chinese and will never be Chinese or live in China or China town...so I will continue to Bow to Masters and shake their hand Kentucky style and will bet you they, will enjoy meeting me just as much as you....maybe better since according to our critics, they like to laugh at us:)

[Baqualin]

It appears that Sean's school teaches both CLF and Tai Ji Quan.

Hey TTM..He's only talking about his school;)

[Baqualin]

Answers, please.

6 harmonies
8 methods
Baqua foot work

[sean_stonehart]

It appears that Sean's school teaches both CLF and Tai Ji Quan.

Yeah it does... CLF and TJQ are taught side by side, not in addition to the either.

Kinda like... when I want a beer and a shot, I get both, not a boilermaker. Make sense?

Taught side by side... not one to compliment or enhance the other.

Personally I don't like TJQ. I prefer the CLF internal sets and mechanics... it's much more to my liking & disposition... plus it's all CLF, nothing borrowed, nothing shaved off of something else.

[jit fu]

He created it from 3 systems which means it's a buffet...the flavor of each original system is not the same it's a blend...just like most CMA...and it's full of legends just like most CMA......maybe not to the extent of SD but still a buffet.....Baqua is a buffet...and on and on and on....... Chan Heung might not of been Hairy, but he must of had some big b@lls to kick a 80# boulder 12 feet
I'm not cutting down CLF ( from what I've seen it's pretty cool) or comparing your traditions & legends to SD's (2 different animals) the only point is....look how you react when we attack your system & put you under a microscope...it helped since you were a little snobby to start...I'm not Chinese and will never be Chinese or live in China or China town...so I will continue to Bow to Masters and shake their hand Kentucky style and will bet you they, will enjoy meeting me just as much as you....maybe better since according to our critics, they like to laugh at us:)

you havent put anyone under a microscope, your answer is typical of people who don't know the answers, not that i know them all, but am open to learning instead of writing it off without really researching it. im not being snobby, just honest.

[Baqualin]

you havent put anyone under a microscope, your answer is typical of people who don't know the answers , not that i know them all,

DITTO

but am open to learning instead of writing it off without really researching it.

[B]But you have done just that regarding SD

im not being snobby, just honest.

Me Too:D;):cool::D

[sean_stonehart]

He created it from 3 systems which means it's a buffet...the flavor of each original system is not the same it's a blend...just like most CMA...and it's full of legends just like most CMA......maybe not to the extent of SD but still a buffet.....Baqua is a buffet...and on and on and on....... Chan Heung might not of been Hairy, but he must of had some big b@lls to kick a 80# boulder 12 feet
I'm not cutting down CLF ( from what I've seen it's pretty cool) or comparing your traditions & legends to SD's (2 different animals) the only point is....look how you react when we attack your system & put you under a microscope...it helped since you were a little snobby to start...I'm not Chinese and will never be Chinese or live in China or China town...so I will continue to Bow to Masters and shake their hand Kentucky style and will bet you they, will enjoy meeting me just as much as you....maybe better since according to our critics, they like to laugh at us:)

Yeah but BQ... the difference is Chan Heung never did what SD has. He didn't take 3 different teachings, change the outward appearance & loose lots of the mechanics & say he had the original.

He took 3 the teachings of 3 different people & created something new by combining them and exploring the possibilities of them as one cohesive piece. He named it after them to honor their teachings & as his teachers, proclaim them as his teacher, but what he taught was created by him from their teachings. Not renamed or glossed over.

Many many many CMAs were done like that.

SD hasn't done that to any degree. Instead, SD has laid claim to many things as their own through some dubious & questionable lineage claims. There are examples that could be named, but there's no reason to rehash.

If it were put out "Oh yeah, I learned "X" from "Y" in 19xx" by ST, there'd be no issue. He would be doing exactly what many CMA teachers have done, borrowed, learned, bought, cajoled, etc... sets from other systems. Instead, by laying out the claims that have been thoroughly discussed... there's an air of dishonesty & mediocrity surrounding the basic CMA skills and training, lack of CMA culture taught and learned, by people in SD.

You've got my email addy waiting in PM... please feel free to drop a note.

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah it does... CLF and TJQ are taught side by side, not in addition to the either.

Kinda like... when I want a beer and a shot, I get both, not a boilermaker. Make sense?

Taught side by side... not one to compliment or enhance the other.

Personally I don't like TJQ. I prefer the CLF internal sets and mechanics... it's much more to my liking & disposition... plus it's all CLF, nothing borrowed, nothing shaved off of something else.But don't they enhance and compliment one another?? You drink both to get a head change though ,do you not??And if you have both do they not give you more of a head change than if you had one or the other??

[youcandokungfu]

Hay guys move over bruce lee and jackie chan and jet li and steven segal
and here is the real northern style of instructional dvds by Marco revah
click here at www.youcandokungfu.com look at the 3 and 4 arm and 7 arm wooden dummy let me know what you think
By you can do kung fu . com:D

[sean_stonehart]

But don't they enhance and compliment one another??

The way they're taught no. I don't have to study the TJQ or vice versa. They're independent of each other, therefore not there to enhance or compliment the other in a single curriculum.

Color by numbers... 1) Go to CLF Class, 2) Go to TJQ Class ... no 3) go to class where you do both...


You drink both to get a head change though ,do you not??

Sure, but mixing is more often than not a risky undertaking & much better left alone rather than hanging solo with a favored flavor


And if you have both do they not give you more of a head change than if you had one or the other??

Yeah and which leads to the body becoming confused unless there's a sufficient amount of body mass to deal with the effects. To put it simply...

unless my CLF is good & solid, my TJQ will be diluting the CLF because my body is still learning & acclamating to CLF & vice versa... you need to learn a single method before branching off otherwise you you end up doing a body puke of CMA...

[Baqualin]

Yeah but BQ... the difference is Chan Heung never did what SD has. He didn't take 3 different teachings, change the outward appearance & loose lots of the mechanics & say he had the original.

He took 3 the teachings of 3 different people & created something new by combining them and exploring the possibilities of them as one cohesive piece. He named it after them to honor their teachings & as his teachers, proclaim them as his teacher, but what he taught was created by him from their teachings. Not renamed or glossed over.

Many many many CMAs were done like that.

SD hasn't done that to any degree. Instead, SD has laid claim to many things as their own through some dubious & questionable lineage claims. There are examples that could be named, but there's no reason to rehash.

If it were put out "Oh yeah, I learned "X" from "Y" in 19xx" by ST, there'd be no issue. He would be doing exactly what many CMA teachers have done, borrowed, learned, bought, cajoled, etc... sets from other systems. Instead, by laying out the claims that have been thoroughly discussed... there's an air of dishonesty & mediocrity surrounding the basic CMA skills and training, lack of CMA culture taught and learned, by people in SD.

You've got my email addy waiting in PM... please feel free to drop a note.

I hear you & all the claims....but in everything he has taught me (or EML) GMS has always given credit to the originators of the form or system being taught as it was past on to him by GMIe.....sometimes that has been wrong & GMS corrected it...Ex. Chen 83....after visiting a grave yard by the Chen village he realized a small generational discrepancy and corrected it...no one else with him would have known.
As I've said before SD's not for everybody...just like CLF is not for me ;)

[tattooedmonk]

The way they're taught no. I don't have to study the TJQ or vice versa. They're independent of each other, therefore not there to enhance or compliment the other in a single curriculum.

Color by numbers... 1) Go to CLF Class, 2) Go to TJQ Class ... no 3) go to class where you do both...



Sure, but mixing is more often than not a risky undertaking & much better left alone rather than hanging solo with a favored flavor



Yeah and which leads to the body becoming confused unless there's a sufficient amount of body mass to deal with the effects. To put it simply...

unless my CLF is good & solid, my TJQ will be diluting the CLF because my body is still learning & acclamating to CLF & vice versa... you need to learn a single method before branching off otherwise you you end up doing a body puke of CMA... This is why most of the programs now are adopting and internal and eternal class.

I get what you are saying and in a lot of ways I agree with you ...but with me I can handle the beer and the shots and whateverelse I have served to me.:D:cool:

[arinathos.valin]

I hear you & all the claims....but in everything he has taught me (or EML) GMS has always given credit to the originators of the form or system being taught as it was past on to him by GMIe.....sometimes that has been wrong & GMS corrected it...Ex. Chen 83....after visiting a grave yard by the Chen village he realized a small generational discrepancy and corrected it...no one else with him would have known.
As I've said before SD's not for everybody...just like CLF is not for me ;)

BQ, I accept that GMT may have given credit where credit is due... but it isn't making its way down the food chain. If one checks out the various SD websites, any mention of Cheng Man Ching or Jiang Rong Qiao is extremely rare, as originators of the SD taiji and classic bagua forms. I'd be willing to bet that most schools don't actually know the lineage of many of the internal or external forms. The Shaolin Do: Secrets from the Temple book tries to make direct links to the internal arts of taiji, xingyi, and bagua that are spurious at best. One of the previous posters had to correct a fellow SDer who claimed that the taiji forms were 'direct from the temple'... I'm still not sure after reading the post whether the 'correctee' (is that really a word?) was really convinced.

This isn't to say that SD isn't accurately documenting its lineage in its upper echelon, but the ignorance of many SD schools about the lineage certainly isn't helping.

[Baqualin]

BQ, I accept that GMT may have given credit where credit is due... but it isn't making its way down the food chain. If one checks out the various SD websites, any mention of Cheng Man Ching or Jiang Rong Qiao is extremely rare, as originators of the SD taiji and classic bagua forms. I'd be willing to bet that most schools don't actually know the lineage of many of the internal or external forms. The Shaolin Do: Secrets from the Temple book tries to make direct links to the internal arts of taiji, xingyi, and bagua that are spurious at best. One of the previous posters had to correct a fellow SDer who claimed that the taiji forms were 'direct from the temple'... I'm still not sure after reading the post whether the 'correctee' (is that really a word?) was really convinced.

This isn't to say that SD isn't accurately documenting its lineage in its upper echelon, but the ignorance of many SD schools about the lineage certainly isn't helping.

I agree and some people mistake ties to the temple as from the temple.....and as I've always said we've grown to big......now we will suffer for it:)

[Lamassu]

Hay guys move over bruce lee and jackie chan and jet li and steven segal
and here is the real northern style of instructional dvds by Marco revah
click here at www.youcandokungfu.com look at the 3 and 4 arm and 7 arm wooden dummy let me know what you think
By you can do kung fu . com:D

This is spam, you may want to ban this guy and delete his posts. Just FYI. :)

[bodhi warrior]

BQ, I accept that GMT may have given credit where credit is due... but it isn't making its way down the food chain. If one checks out the various SD websites, any mention of Cheng Man Ching or Jiang Rong Qiao is extremely rare, as originators of the SD taiji and classic bagua forms. I'd be willing to bet that most schools don't actually know the lineage of many of the internal or external forms. The Shaolin Do: Secrets from the Temple book tries to make direct links to the internal arts of taiji, xingyi, and bagua that are spurious at best. One of the previous posters had to correct a fellow SDer who claimed that the taiji forms were 'direct from the temple'... I'm still not sure after reading the post whether the 'correctee' (is that really a word?) was really convinced.

This isn't to say that SD isn't accurately documenting its lineage in its upper echelon, but the ignorance of many SD schools about the lineage certainly isn't helping.

Yea I remember reading on one Sd school's website, they claimed to teach the original pakua from which all other pakua comes from. I learned Pakua from GMS and he never mentioned Jiang rong qiao as the forms originator. I also learned taichi 64 from him and again he never mentioned cheng man ching as the forms creator. These things I had to learn from my own research.

[Shaolin Wookie]

All I'm saying is there is a whole mountain range out there - take a look and then comment. (of course I'm going to hear that they have already ...and....)

Been there, done that (traditional Longfist and some wushu). Said to myself, man, this isn't a good investment of money (done other CMA's and capoeira as long as I've been in SD), because I'm doing the exact same things, only with different emphasis, based on the structure of the system and style. I climbed at least four mountains, stood at the top, and said: "****, these mountains all look alike.":D So I picked the one that was most challenging to climb.

KFM'ers said: "Yeah, but you still suck b/c you like SD better.":rolleyes: I still do capoeira in the summers, though.:)


really, very interesting. that's why there's a "t" in front of tcma. no secret handshake, only proper ettiquete. your school is indonesian, what would you know of a tcma school and there practices?

I know the ones I went to all allowed you to wear what you wanted, and were run by little chinese guys who rented space out of karate and tae kwan do schools, because they had other jobs. None of them called themselves a sifu. :eek: But their kung-fu was better than the commercial schools whihc were fulltime "traditional" schools, equipped with altars, incense, and lion costumes.:eek: The question is, are you trying to be chinese, or are you studying a chinese martial art? No lion dances for me, LOL...........The schools that harped on lineages were the ones run by white and black american dudes (who usually had chinese wives....I'm not being presumptuous, I actually saw them) and did their best to be chinese. Note: you don't have to be chinese, a buddhist, or a taoist to do kung fu.....LOL.....BTW, I'm a white american atheist grad student doing kung fu.....LOL......a joke in itself....


BQ, I accept that GMT may have given credit where credit is due... but it isn't making its way down the food chain. If one checks out the various SD websites, any mention of Cheng Man Ching or Jiang Rong Qiao is extremely rare, as originators of the SD taiji and classic bagua forms. I'd be willing to bet that most schools don't actually know the lineage of many of the internal or external forms.

And many I talk with on this issue generally don't really care.;) (that includes the other CMA's I studied :eek:). Lineage is an internet thing. I've never heard it elswhere. It's usually posted in the school. Some people harp on it and try to impress you with it as soon as you walk in the door. But really, it's just a list of chinese dudes, most of whom are dead, and I don't really care about any of that.....LOL.....

Lineages don't make people better. My longfist teacher had impressive credentials, but his students weren't that great, and couldn't fight very well (compared to SD). What I want to do is challenge myself and learn to fight. I don't know about the system as a whole, but some of my teachers are very scary dudes when you touch hands. Not all.....but the good ones are. And it's always easy to tell the good ones apart.


The Shaolin Do: Secrets from the Temple book tries to make direct links to the internal arts of taiji, xingyi, and bagua that are spurious at best.

It's not the best book, and it was obviously written by someone who really believes in the system as it is advertised (Like, the best ever, for sure!):) It's just propaganda. I don't particularly like it.


This isn't to say that SD isn't accurately documenting its lineage in its upper echelon, but the ignorance of many SD schools about the lineage certainly isn't helping.

I do know this, all lineage claims following from GM The' can be verified. They're all documented on SDA, SD, and CSC websites. I can follow my teacher's lineage back to GM The', and from GM The' jump back to the original lineage.

But really, from there, again, its just two more chinese dudes, one of whom was exceptionally hairy.

I can look at Senior Master Grooms and see where part of my teacher's knowledge comes from, just as I could look at some other SD guys from TEnnessee and Kentuck and say the exact same thing. And I can look at myself and see where all my teaching has come from, and not all of it is from the master of the school I attend. I give credit to fellow students and some of the "lower level" sifus for all I learned. I didn't learn anything from the hairy guy or GGpappy Ie. So I don't really care about that.

Seriously, leave your lineages at the door.

[MasterKiller]

I climbed at least four mountains, stood at the top, and said: "****, these mountains all look alike.":D So I picked the one that was most challenging to climb.

Oh brother. After only 2 years, you can't even see the peaks yet, let alone reach one of them. :rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

Actually, what I said to myself was: "****, they really do look like a bunch of tits. I wonder which ones are real, and which ones are fake."

If you can touch 'em, they're all real.

[Baqualin]

Actually, what I said to myself was: "****, they really do look like a bunch of tits. I wonder which ones are real, and which ones are fake."

If you can touch 'em, they're all real.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)
BQ

[sean_stonehart]

Boob jokes relating to fu... not bad, but remember you have to try multiple boobs before settling on the ones for you otherwise you're missing out

[djcaldwell]

Okay. I've accepted that it's easier to convince an athiest that there is a God with no substantial proof than it is to show SDers that there is more than what they are learning poorly - with an abundance of proof from all over. So I'll lurk and wait patiently for that one "good representation" video to pop up from one of SD's elite showing us what all these other SD schools apparently can not.

Or, maybe they will grace us with a demonstration of the deadly skill at a tournament one day so that the world can see what SD is all about and not just in a park dancing infront of non MA people....I know, I know...that video..arrgggg

[MasterKiller]

If you can touch 'em, they're all real.

After you've touched a few more, you'll realize that real and quality are not synonymous.

It's easy to keep telling yourself that you don't care those DD's are plastic as long as she keeps her sweater on, but after the bra comes off and you see the wrinkles and creases from the saline bags sloshing around, you'll probably start rethinking your position.

[Baqualin]

After you've touched a few more, you'll realize that real and quality are not synonymous.

It's easy to keep telling yourself that you don't care those DD's are plastic as long as she keeps her sweater on, but after the bra comes off and you see the wrinkles and creases from the saline bags sloshing around, you'll probably start rethinking your position.

Oh My God, I'll never touch a Tit again:D

[Baqualin]

Okay. I've accepted that it's easier to convince an athiest that there is a God with no substantial proof than it is to show SDers that there is more than what they are learning poorly - with an abundance of proof from all over. So I'll lurk and wait patiently for that one "good representation" video to pop up from one of SD's elite showing us what all these other SD schools apparently can not.

Or, maybe they will grace us with a demonstration of the deadly skill at a tournament one day so that the world can see what SD is all about and not just in a park dancing infront of non MA people....I know, I know...that video..arrgggg

There's already SDers out there in the cage....video of one has been posted on here.
Thanks for stopping in though.........I'm sure we will see you soon;)

[Lamassu]

Okay. I've accepted that it's easier to convince an athiest that there is a God with no substantial proof than it is to show SDers that there is more than what they are learning poorly - with an abundance of proof from all over. So I'll lurk and wait patiently for that one "good representation" video to pop up from one of SD's elite showing us what all these other SD schools apparently can not.

Or, maybe they will grace us with a demonstration of the deadly skill at a tournament one day so that the world can see what SD is all about and not just in a park dancing infront of non MA people....I know, I know...that video..arrgggg

Thank you, see that's not so hard is it? Cast off the "savior" robes and let people practice and talk about their respective martial art in peace. Maybe now, we can move on to better topics.

[Lamassu]

After you've touched a few more, you'll realize that real and quality are not synonymous.

It's easy to keep telling yourself that you don't care those DD's are plastic as long as she keeps her sweater on, but after the bra comes off and you see the wrinkles and creases from the saline bags sloshing around, you'll probably start rethinking your position.

Breasts and kung-fu! :) What are we talking about again? I thought the 'DOA' movie thread is on the media popular culture forum. :p

[djcaldwell]

There's already SDers out there in the cage....video of one has been posted on here.
Thanks for stopping in though.........I'm sure we will see you soon;)

I didn't say I was leaving the forum just that I wasn't arguing this point anymore.



Thank you, see that's not so hard is it? Cast off the "savior" robes and let people practice and talk about their respective martial art in peace. Maybe now, we can move on to better topics.

As if...

My comments are the sole detraction from your pursuing meaningful discussions on the board. If there was something meaningful and/or insightful said that would be great.

[tattooedmonk]

I agree and some people mistake ties to the temple as from the temple.....and as I've always said we've grown too big......now we will suffer for it:) +1.:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

BQ, I accept that GMT may have given credit where credit is due... but it isn't making its way down the food chain. If one checks out the various SD websites, any mention of Cheng Man Ching or Jiang Rong Qiao is extremely rare, as originators of the SD taiji and classic bagua forms. I'd be willing to bet that most schools don't actually know the lineage of many of the internal or external forms. The Shaolin Do: Secrets from the Temple book tries to make direct links to the internal arts of taiji, xingyi, and bagua that are spurious at best. One of the previous posters had to correct a fellow SDer who claimed that the taiji forms were 'direct from the temple'... I'm still not sure after reading the post whether the 'correctee' (is that really a word?) was really convinced.

This isn't to say that SD isn't accurately documenting its lineage in its upper echelon, but the ignorance of many SD schools about the lineage certainly isn't helping.I agree.:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Been there, done that (traditional Longfist and some wushu). Said to myself, man, this isn't a good investment of money (done other CMA's and capoeira as long as I've been in SD), because I'm doing the exact same things, only with different emphasis, based on the structure of the system and style. I climbed at least four mountains, stood at the top, and said: "****, these mountains all look alike.":D So I picked the one that was most challenging to climb.

KFM'ers said: "Yeah, but you still suck b/c you like SD better.":rolleyes: I still do capoeira in the summers, though.:)



I know the ones I went to all allowed you to wear what you wanted, and were run by little chinese guys who rented space out of karate and tae kwan do schools, because they had other jobs. None of them called themselves a sifu. :eek: But their kung-fu was better than the commercial schools whihc were fulltime "traditional" schools, equipped with altars, incense, and lion costumes.:eek: The question is, are you trying to be chinese, or are you studying a chinese martial art? No lion dances for me, LOL...........The schools that harped on lineages were the ones run by white and black american dudes (who usually had chinese wives....I'm not being presumptuous, I actually saw them) and did their best to be chinese. Note: you don't have to be chinese, a buddhist, or a taoist to do kung fu.....LOL.....BTW, I'm a white american atheist grad student doing kung fu.....LOL......a joke in itself....



And many I talk with on this issue generally don't really care.;) (that includes the other CMA's I studied :eek:). Lineage is an internet thing. I've never heard it elswhere. It's usually posted in the school. Some people harp on it and try to impress you with it as soon as you walk in the door. But really, it's just a list of chinese dudes, most of whom are dead, and I don't really care about any of that.....LOL.....

Lineages don't make people better. My longfist teacher had impressive credentials, but his students weren't that great, and couldn't fight very well (compared to SD). What I want to do is challenge myself and learn to fight. I don't know about the system as a whole, but some of my teachers are very scary dudes when you touch hands. Not all.....but the good ones are. And it's always easy to tell the good ones apart.



It's not the best book, and it was obviously written by someone who really believes in the system as it is advertised (Like, the best ever, for sure!):) It's just propaganda. I don't particularly like it.



I do know this, all lineage claims following from GM The' can be verified. They're all documented on SDA, SD, and CSC websites. I can follow my teacher's lineage back to GM The', and from GM The' jump back to the original lineage.

But really, from there, again, its just two more chinese dudes, one of whom was exceptionally hairy.

I can look at Senior Master Grooms and see where part of my teacher's knowledge comes from, just as I could look at some other SD guys from TEnnessee and Kentuck and say the exact same thing. And I can look at myself and see where all my teaching has come from, and not all of it is from the master of the school I attend. I give credit to fellow students and some of the "lower level" sifus for all I learned. I didn't learn anything from the hairy guy or GGpappy Ie. So I don't really care about that.

Seriously, leave your lineages at the door.I wish more people had this outlook on the situation.:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Thank you, see that's not so hard is it? Cast off the "savior" robes and let people practice and talk about their respective martial art in peace. Maybe now, we can move on to better topics.This would be nice , would it not??:D:cool:

[brucereiter]

Yea I remember reading on one Sd school's website, they claimed to teach the original pakua from which all other pakua comes from. I learned Pakua from GMS and he never mentioned Jiang rong qiao as the forms originator. I also learned taichi 64 from him and again he never mentioned cheng man ching as the forms creator. These things I had to learn from my own research.

when i asked about the history of classical pakua i was told the following.

"The full name of our form is "Original Octagonal Palm of the Elusive Fist"
The form is the original set of two taught by Chiang Jung-Ch'iao
Chiang Jung-Ch'iao was one generation removed from the originator of Pa Kua - Dong Hai-Chuan.
His teacher was Chang Chao-Tung a direct student of Dong Hai-Chuan"

in class it is just refereed to at classical pakua. and most students do not ask for further information and they may assume it was developed at shaolin temple or what ever.

i wonder if anyone has read the preface to jiang rong qiao's hsing i book? as i mentioned several posts back he states that he traveled to shaolin temple and this was a book written in 1929 ...

best

bruce

[ricardocameron]

Hey guys,
Anyone got any good apps for combat with Tai Chi Technique? I have been learning a 24 posture Yang short form on my own (Terrance Dunn video as no SD teacher available yet)and now been fighting ghosts with it in my head, as I have no one else to play with for combat apps. Any ideas on using Ward off, Roll-back(a throw, i know), Parting the horse's mane, etc? I found this one video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_iwbCTvIVt8
Any recommendations would be great. Thanks

And... whats REALLY cool is I actually came up with(amazingly to me) some of what he shows in the vid too(like the opening form raise hands against a double shoulder grab) Whew!! Thanks Senior Master Gary, for saying to ask yourself "How can I make this hurt?" :D

[Litikuai]

Well all that is missing is some frekin rap music give me a break they were all drunk the guy was admiring him self in the mirror what a pot belly dont show that cra/ LTKuai

[brucereiter]

Hey guys,
Anyone got any good apps for combat with Tai Chi Technique? I have been learning a 24 posture Yang short form on my own (Terrance Dunn video as no SD teacher available yet)and now been fighting ghosts with it in my head, as I have no one else to play with for combat apps. Any ideas on using Ward off, Roll-back(a throw, i know), Parting the horse's mane, etc?

hi ...

here are some of my ideas on applying tai chi chuan.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lJgfVy5Cqe0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-1vA5Y3sT6o

best,

bruce

[brucereiter]

hi ya'all,

here are some drills and training i do. does anyone do anything similar? would anyone like to share a clip of some of their training?

some striking drills:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G_jajtX-2po

some stance training:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=I2nZiDpg0og

some isometric stance training:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9IXaWXuSNhA

some grip training:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GcF1jMs6wTI

best,

bruce

[The Xia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uob5H9XCKs
There are a lot of things I can point out in this video, but I mentioned the iron palm because I see danger in it. They're leaning forward and smashing their hands into the bag...
I agree with the point that sean stonehart and sanjuro ronin made about all the different arts that SD claims. They have different cores. In the videos I watched, I don't see any of the attributes that people well trained in those styles have. I always hear from this board that those videos don't represent all of SD, but that's what is being put out there. Some of the people in that much talked about demo were labled I think as black sashes and "masters." What does that tell us about SD? Combine the demos with the lineage, 900 forms, etc, and what does that add up to?

[The Xia]

No you haven't. Didn't the big forms explosion happen in the 80s when Sin The' came back from a trip to Indonesia?
If that's true, what was he doing before then?

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uob5H9XCKs
There are a lot of things I can point out in this video, but I mentioned the iron palm because I see danger in it. They're leaning forward and smashing their hands into the bag...
I agree with the point that sean stonehart and sanjuro ronin made about all the different arts that SD claims. They have different cores. In the videos I watched, I don't see any of the attributes that people well trained in those styles have. I always hear from this board that those videos don't represent all of SD, but that's what is being put out there. Some of the people in that much talked about demo were labled I think as black sashes and "masters." What does that tell us about SD? Combine the demos with the lineage, 900 forms, etc, and what does that add up to? You tell us what does it all add up to??
anyone can pick a specific area of study within the art after they have seen a large variety ,and full filled the basic requirements,of what there is to be had.

I know a lot of you think that these styles are so much different than each other but you are incorrect.

Maybe if you focused more on how they are similar instead of how different they are you would not have such a hard time dealing with this and other things.

I can walk into just about any school and there will be less than a dozen hardcore, true practitioners of any styles and even though they have high ranking they still lack in the skill that should be shown by practitioners of that style at that rank.

This holds true for SD as well. I also admit that a large percentage of what is shown is hokey at best .

This is what CSC is putting out not SD. Although they are both over seen by Master Sin they are not the same. These are the schools/people that are associated with DS and SS.

MS and DS are not the same people they used to be. They are more interested in being able to claim their rank and a bunch of foolisheness than be the hardcore martial artist I knew them to be. I know that both of them could walk all over almost everyone on this board without as much as breaking a sweat.

Once again do not judge us all by the performance of a few. Most of the masters and practitioners of the system could careless about what you all think and just keep training.

I noticed that all the critics here have yet to put up themselves doing anything, and yet expect us to. Why not post some of your best material instead of other peoples videos and then maybe we can start having real discussions about what is and what is not.

[Judge Pen]

If that's true, what was he doing before then?

This thread is an investment. You leave town a couple of days and you have to take 15 minutes of reading just to catch up on what is being said.

As for the question above, I wasnt' around so I wouldn't know; however, to me it was always implied that the increase in the amount of forms taught occurred after Hiang The' and Sin The' split. Maybe it was a bit a sibiling rivalry (you're teaching more tai pang well I'll teach Hsing Ie) etc. But I'm just guessing--I wasn't around until 1989.

[sean_stonehart]

You tell us what does it all add up to??
anyone can pick a specific area of study within the art after they have seen a large variety ,and full filled the basic requirements,of what there is to be had.

How can a specific area of study be picked without the basics of it? I mean the specific, basic training regimine of an art.



I know a lot of you think that these styles are so much different than each other but you are incorrect.

They are in real life.



Maybe if you focused more on how they are similar instead of how different they are you would not have such a hard time dealing with this and other things.

Because many to most of them are not similar.



I can walk into just about any school and there will be less than a dozen hardcore, true practitioners of any styles and even though they have high ranking they still lack in the skill that should be shown by practitioners of that style at that rank.

Yep... that's MA today... not CMA... but MA in general.



This holds true for SD as well. I also admit that a large percentage of what is shown is hokey at best .

Cool... we can agree on that.



This is what CSC is putting out not SD. Although they are both over seen by Master Sin they are not the same. These are the schools/people that are associated with DS and SS.

Well the problem is they're endorsed by ST by the simple fact that his name on the certificate of every single BB in SD or CSC. Every single one. He tests every single person above Brown belt... or rather, he sits on the test they take. His signature on the certificate by default is his stamp of approval.



MS and DS are not the same people they used to be. They are more interested in being able to claim their rank and a bunch of foolisheness than be the hardcore martial artist I knew them to be. I know that both of them could walk all over almost everyone on this board without as much as breaking a sweat.

Maybe yes, maybe no...



Once again do not judge us all by the performance of a few. Most of the masters and practitioners of the system could careless about what you all think and just keep training.

Well they should care because their students or the people they trained are the ones putting out the video of the not too good stuff.



I noticed that all the critics here have yet to put up themselves doing anything, and yet expect us to. Why not post some of your best material instead of other peoples videos and then maybe we can start having real discussions about what is and what is not.

True... but we're still waiting to see what "properly performed SD" is, not excuses for what it's not. So once there's "good SD" on video rather than "bad SD" on video, we'll just keep referring to what is out there as status quo for SD.

Besides, there's plenty of TCMA on youtube for the viewing. Pick a style & go.

[MasterKiller]

If that's true, what was he doing before then?

From what other ex-SD'ers have said, it was a lot of the short forms (which have been retro-named Tan Tui), a lot of sparring, and a handful of other long sets. No where near the 200 or so they teach now.

You know, like a regular school. :D

[tattooedmonk]

Alright everyone 80 more to go!!!

[tattooedmonk]

#1 How can a specific area of study be picked without the basics of it? I mean the specific, basic training regimine of an art.





#2 They are in real life.



Because many to most of them are not similar.



#3 Yep... that's MA today... not CMA... but MA in general.



#4Cool... we can agree on that.



#5 Well the problem is they're endorsed by ST by the simple fact that his name on the certificate of every single BB in SD or CSC. Every single one. He tests every single person above Brown belt... or rather, he sits on the test they take. His signature on the certificate by default is his stamp of approval.



#6 Maybe yes, maybe no...



#7 Well they should care because their students or the people they trained are the ones putting out the video of the not too good stuff.



# 8 True... but we're still waiting to see what "properly performed SD" is, not excuses for what it's not. So once there's "good SD" on video rather than "bad SD" on video, we'll just keep referring to what is out there as status quo for SD.

#9 Besides, there's plenty of TCMA on youtube for the viewing. Pick a style & go.#1 How long has it been since you were in SD?? Because I know that specific training is given for specific styles.

#2 They are made different by their practitioners, but guess what ,physics , body mechanics, physiology, anatomy, etc. are still the same and this means that there are only a limited amount of ways that you can do a punch, kick ,grab, and a throw for it to be effective and for there to be the desired result.

It is funny how most other CMA is pretty ineffective. Most other styles of CMA have to work really hard to make their material work in a fighting sitiuation.

#3 Sad, is it not?

#4 :D:cool:

#5 I agree, but Master Sin, I believe, is more interested in people coming together , learning the art ,getting in shape , having a good time, etc. than making an army of top quality martial artist.

#6 Maybe ???

#7 I agree.

#8 I do not believe anyone here is making excuses.

#9 What is everyone afraid of ?? Why can't the critics of SD put up themselves out there and say "this is what it should look like " rather than referring to other people performance?

This only seems fair.

I believe that most of the people on here have a "holier than than thou attitude" and a "superiority complex" but lack the skill to actually prove that they are anything but keyboard martial artist.

Basically exactly what Lamassu called them," snobs".

It is easy to say this guy is doing it wrong and criticize what others are doing from the comfort of their own home :eek:.:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

From what other ex-SD'ers have said, it was a lot of the short forms (which have been retro-named Tan Tui), a lot of sparring, and a handful of other long sets. No where near the 200 or so they teach now.

You know, like a regular school. :D
Meaning what???

[arinathos.valin]

when i asked about the history of classical pakua i was told the following.

"The full name of our form is "Original Octagonal Palm of the Elusive Fist"
The form is the original set of two taught by Chiang Jung-Ch'iao
Chiang Jung-Ch'iao was one generation removed from the originator of Pa Kua - Dong Hai-Chuan.
His teacher was Chang Chao-Tung a direct student of Dong Hai-Chuan"

in class it is just refereed to at classical pakua. and most students do not ask for further information and they may assume it was developed at shaolin temple or what ever.



That's actually correct. Any hints as to who told you that? And do they have any information on the lineage of the snake, animal, and dragon bagua forms that SD has folded into the system?

[MasterKiller]

Meaning what???

You tell me.

[tattooedmonk]

You tell me.what am I , a mind reader?

[MasterKiller]

what am I , a mind reader?

You mean you're not? You can't tell who is calling you on the phone before you pick it up?

Obviously, you didn't get the real Shaolin-Do.

[arinathos.valin]

You mean you're not? You can't tell who is calling you on the phone before you pick it up?

Obviously, you didn't get the real Shaolin-Do.

I can... I studied 'Caller ID-do', from Master AT&T...

[brucereiter]

That's actually correct. Any hints as to who told you that? And do they have any information on the lineage of the snake, animal, and dragon bagua forms that SD has folded into the system?

one of my teachers told me some of the history ... they did not have much history info on the others you mentioned.

best,

bruce

[brucereiter]

hi ya'all,

here are some drills and training i do. does anyone do anything similar? would anyone like to share a clip of some of their training?

some striking drills:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G_jajtX-2po

some stance training:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=I2nZiDpg0og

some isometric stance training:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9IXaWXuSNhA

some grip training:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GcF1jMs6wTI

best,

bruce

how about a discussion about training methods? here is some of the training i do, what types of things do you do?

[Lamassu]

how about a discussion about training methods? here is some of the training i do, what types of things do you do?

I don't know if your video on stance training is what you actually do, or if it's meant for demonstrating which stances you train in, but my stance training consists of a deep horse, deep left bow and deep right bow. Right now, I can hold each stance for about 4 or 5 minutes each (or the length of a song, since I work out while listening to music).

I'm working on my 'phoenix fist', by conditioning the appropriate knuckle on my index fingers, by doing about 20 strikes on a wooden surface (window sill).

My gripping training consists of crushing empty cans one handed (sometimes I end up tearing through the can).

Finally, I do the normal push ups, crunches, "bicycles" and two mile run.

Anyway, that and working on my forms is how I pretty much keep in shape being away from an SD kwoon to train in. :)

[MasterKiller]

heybrucereiterhowcomeyoudonotusespaceswhenyoupostv ideosonyoutube?Areyouafraidyourvideoswillaccidenta llycomeupinsomeone'ssearchorsomething?

[arinathos.valin]

If he was afraid his videos would come up in a search, he wouldn't have put them on YouTube in the first place... :rolleyes:

[DPL]

Yeah, MK - if he posts them for this crowd then his balls are far bigger than yours.

Although yours have to be pretty big if that's really you in the red on the pics lkfmdc posted. 'Behold a PALE horse' took on a whole new meaning...

[MasterKiller]

If he was afraid his videos would come up in a search, he wouldn't have put them on YouTube in the first place... :rolleyes:

thenwhynotusespaceswhenhetypes?He'scertainlycapabl easheusesspaceseffectivelyinhisforumposts.Seemsodd tomeisall.


Yeah, MK - if he posts them for this crowd then his balls are far bigger than yours.I'vepostedvideosofmyselfonherebefore.Ievenpo stedmyfistsubmissiongrapplingtournmanetacoupleofye arsago.Youjustdon'tgetoutenough.


Although yours have to be pretty big if that's really you in the red on the pics lkfmdc posted. 'Behold a PALE horse' took on a whole new meaning...I'mawhiteboy.yougotproblemswithwhiteboys ?Youanti-whiteorsomething?TimOcconerwaswhiterthanmeandidoub tyou'dsaymuchtohisfaceexceptyessirandnosir.

[DPL]

I'vepostedvideosofmyselfonherebefore.Ievenpostedmy fistsubmissiongrapplingtournmanetacoupleofyearsago .Youjustdon'tgetoutenough.

Are they still up anywhere? I'd like to see them.


I'mawhiteboy.yougotproblemswithwhiteboys?Youanti-whiteorsomething?TimOcconerwaswhiterthanmeandidoub tyou'dsaymuchtohisfaceexceptyessirandnosir.

LOL - nah, no problem with white boys. I'm just sayin', sunlight is your friend, man, that's all.

[MasterKiller]

Are they still up anywhere? I'd like to see them. They are on youtube. Seek and ye shall find.



LOL - nah, no problem with white boys. I'm just sayin', sunlight is your friend, man, that's all.
MK prefers to glisten like an ivory tower.

[sean_stonehart]

#1 How long has it been since you were in SD?? Because I know that specific training is given for specific styles.

Well it's been a fair number of years, but I don't recall anybody ever spending years working on any one piece of material from the complete systems SD has claimed. Bits & pieces, but only at best & only until the next form came up.

Let me ask you this... at 3rd black, SD learns a total of 8 Huas (4 singles & 2 partnered sets) .. AND... Tiger Crane from Hung Ga. How much time did you personally spend learning the proper techniques from the Soards as your teacher for Tiger Crane? How many years did you spend learning the bridging, stances, transitionings, drills, etc... to make sure it's done properly? Or with the Praying Mantis has laid a claim on? How many years did you spend working on the 7 Softs, 8 Hards & 12 Keywords?

Not picking... just asking.



#2 They are made different by their practitioners, but guess what ,physics , body mechanics, physiology, anatomy, etc. are still the same and this means that there are only a limited amount of ways that you can do a punch, kick ,grab, and a throw for it to be effective and for there to be the desired result.

From the outside looking in yes, from the inside working, there's a lot more than meets the eye.



It is funny how most other CMA is pretty ineffective. Most other styles of CMA have to work really hard to make their material work in a fighting sitiuation.

Some styles work better than others for people... some people work better than others for some styles. Like my Psych professor used to say "It depends..."



#3 Sad, is it not?

Yep



#4 :D:cool:

k



#5 I agree, but Master Sin, I believe, is more interested in people coming together , learning the art ,getting in shape , having a good time, etc. than making an army of top quality martial artist.

Well... that's too bad then if SD continues to make the claims that it has in the past & has done nothing to mitigate.



#6 Maybe ???

At best maybe at worst maybe not



#7 I agree.

K



#8 I do not believe anyone here is making excuses.

Really? All we (the board at large) keep hearing is how the Denver or Atlanta vids shouldn't be indicative of how SD is to be performed, especially from you. Yet... there's been nothing presented on how it should look... from anybody of any time & rank within SD. The arguement "it doesn't matter to me..." doesn't apply here since you've been one of the more vocal proponents of "Proper SD isn't like that"



#9 What is everyone afraid of ?? Why can't the critics of SD put up themselves out there and say "this is what it should look like " rather than referring to other people performance?

This only seems fair.

Sure it does. And there are plenty of TCMA vids on you tube for discussion/dissection. Hell... given the number of vids, there may already be posters on the board there.



I believe that most of the people on here have a "holier than than thou attitude" and a "superiority complex" but lack the skill to actually prove that they are anything but keyboard martial artist.

Well that has yet to be seen. What has been seen is people bringing TCMA knowledge and experience to the net for anybody to absorb that's willing and instead is being met with literally with the "Nah... we got it right" arguement.

Nobody's ever said SD didn't produce people who couldn't fight. What's the jist of the conversations/arguments is SD isn't TCMA & people who study SD haven't studied TCMA while the marketing beast fro SD has perpetuated a cloud of dishonesty and questions regarding its origins and skill sets.



Basically exactly what Lamassu called them," snobs".

If doing it right the first time is snobbery, so be it. Ask JP though... I still fall over in bars after downing a 1/5 of SoCo just like he does...



It is easy to say this guy is doing it wrong and criticize what others are doing from the comfort of their own home :eek:.:D:cool:

Well, I'll tell you in person if you'd like...

[Judge Pen]

If doing it right the first time is snobbery, so be it. Ask JP though... I still fall over in bars after downing a 1/5 of SoCo just like he does...


My recollection of those events are fuzzy at best.

[sean_stonehart]

My recollection of those events are fuzzy at best.

I was hoping you'd plead the 5th ... :eek:

[Mas Judt]

Obviously not a defense lawyer...

Or maybe he IS and the reality was:

"I have no recollection f doing the fifth and those eightballs and driving that schoolbus full of children to the strip club oshifur."

[Judge Pen]

Under these circumstances pleading the 5th would be considered an admission of guilt.

[kwaichang]

I learned Tiger Crane duet in 1995 I still work on it I still work on 1-30 weekly I still do all my test material weekly Something you guys dont understand or seem not to is that a belt is just a step toward a goal . sure there are those who test and never perform that material again. Too bad for them they grow but do not have a foundation to build from. It is practice over the lower belt material that produces the foundation for growth in any art. I practice my Huas not as much as I should but I do them and break them down to get better at them I do the Mantis too which isnt required for testing. see boys you get your Black Belt sash whatever and then you continue to train or teach it that is what produces skill you guys seem to believe when we learn something we test and never do it again. How dumb is that KC

[brucereiter]

heybrucereiterhowcomeyoudonotusespaceswhenyoupostv ideosonyoutube?Areyouafraidyourvideoswillaccidenta llycomeupinsomeone'ssearchorsomething?

Hi,

I put my clips out for people on these forums to see what I do if they are interested. I don't care who sees them or finds them.

i turned off the comments and such on the youtube clips to try to keep any discussion of them on the various cma forums i post on ...

i have been very open with what i do yet very few "nay sayers" has posted clips of them doing their understanding of cma.

Why do you think I would be afraid for someone to find them? I posted links in this forum several times for anyone to see.
And I have asked people to comment and said I practice shaolin do when ever i have put up a link to my clips ...

i have Nothing to hide :-)

m.k., i have seen a few clips of you a while back. why dont you post a few more links so we can see some of your ideas on how to express your cma training.

Best

Bruce

http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

[tattooedmonk]

# 1 Well it's been a fair number of years, but I don't recall anybody ever spending years working on any one piece of material from the complete systems SD has claimed. Bits & pieces, but only at best & only until the next form came up.

Let me ask you this... at 3rd black, SD learns a total of 8 Huas (4 singles & 2 partnered sets) .. AND... Tiger Crane from Hung Ga. How much time did you personally spend learning the proper techniques from the Soards as your teacher for Tiger Crane? How many years did you spend learning the bridging, stances, transitionings, drills, etc... to make sure it's done properly? Or with the Praying Mantis has laid a claim on? How many years did you spend working on the 7 Softs, 8 Hards & 12 Keywords?

Not picking... just asking.



#2 From the outside looking in yes, from the inside working, there's a lot more than meets the eye.



#3 Some styles work better than others for people... some people work better than others for some styles. Like my Psych professor used to say "It depends..."



#4 Yep



#5 k



#6 Well... that's too bad then if SD continues to make the claims that it has in the past & has done nothing to mitigate.



#7 At best maybe at worst maybe not



#8 K



#9 Really? All we (the board at large) keep hearing is how the Denver or Atlanta vids shouldn't be indicative of how SD is to be performed, especially from you. Yet... there's been nothing presented on how it should look... from anybody of any time & rank within SD. The arguement "it doesn't matter to me..." doesn't apply here since you've been one of the more vocal proponents of "Proper SD isn't like that"



# 10 Sure it does. And there are plenty of TCMA vids on you tube for discussion/dissection. Hell... given the number of vids, there may already be posters on the board there.



#11 Well that has yet to be seen. What has been seen is people bringing TCMA knowledge and experience to the net for anybody to absorb that's willing and instead is being met with literally with the "Nah... we got it right" arguement.

#12 Nobody's ever said SD didn't produce people who couldn't fight. What's the jist of the conversations/arguments is SD isn't TCMA & people who study SD haven't studied TCMA while the marketing beast fro SD has perpetuated a cloud of dishonesty and questions regarding its origins and skill sets.



#13 If doing it right the first time is snobbery, so be it. Ask JP though... I still fall over in bars after downing a 1/5 of SoCo just like he does...



#14 Well, I'll tell you in person if you'd like...#1 Things are little different now. When I learned that material I was taking them at festivals/seminars . I would learn them. then leave for a few months , comeback ask questions, and then leave again to work on them. I did this for years. Out west they did not/do not teach the Hua 2 man sets.

#2 I understand from the outside they are and that internally they are different.

#3 I agree.

#4 :cool:

#5:cool:

#6 I agree

#7 I agree

#8 :D

#9 Well when all the people that are critics of Sd put themselves up I will do the same.

#10 Who and Where ??


#11 It has been seen all over this board. But yet not one of these comparison videos have been from the critics themselves.

#12 Well is that not all that matters then?? All this other stuff, to me, is non- intrinsic , unless it compromises the art. I get what you are saying.

#13 Not what I was talking about. What I was saying is that all the people that knock SD have yet to produce any of their own videos, are looking down their noses's at what we do and saying it is this or is not that............It is easy to do this from behind a computer and using other people's videos/ demonstrations.

#14 I am always open to hearing constructive criticism and learning from others. I am an eternal student as well.:D

I like talking with you . You seem to be a knowledgable martial artist and a pretty good guy. Thanks.

[brucereiter]

thenwhynotusespaceswhenhetypes?He'scertainlycapabl easheusesspaceseffectivelyinhisforumposts.Seemsodd tomeisall.


hi m.k.,

here is one thing i find odd. people ask often online about shaolin do, many people say many different things with only seeing this or that clip so i choose to share my expression with who ever may be interested. i am only one person in a large organization and wish to only speak for myself and my own martial understanding.

i post links to my shaolin do practice here so that all of you can comment and all m.k. can say is that i did not put spaces between any of the titles ... so he thinks i must be hiding something.

what do you think about the content of the clips?
am i expressing any concepts of tcma?
what do you think is bad in the clips?
what do you think is good in the clips?



best,

bruce

[MasterKiller]

hi m.k.,

here is one thing i find odd. people ask often online about shaolin do, many people say many different things with only seeing this or that clip so i choose to share my expression with who ever may be interested. i am only one person in a large organization and wish to only speak for myself and my own martial understanding.

i post links to my shaolin do practice here so that all of you can comment and all m.k. can say is that i did not put spaces between any of the titles ... so he thinks i must be hiding something.

what do you think about the content of the clips?
am i expressing any concepts of tcma?
what do you think is bad in the clips?
what do you think is good in the clips?



best,

bruce

I was just curious about the no spaces, bro. I don't study Tai Chi, Xing Yi, or Bagua, so I am not qualified to judge your clips, which is why I never said anything about them. You put some long fist clips up and I'll chime in. ;)

[brucereiter]

I was just curious about the no spaces, bro. I don't study Tai Chi, Xing Yi, or Bagua, so I am not qualified to judge your clips, which is why I never said anything about them. You put some long fist clips up and I'll chime in. ;)

i can appreciate you not practicing ima and not wanting to comment on ima.

i have read your posts and other peoples posts in the past that imply all sd is "kempo" like or "karate" like or is not "tcma" etc etc ... how would you describe what i have shown?

i have put out there some of what i have learned from shaolin do, i do not practice "external" so i cant put up any clip of me doing long fist.

[bodhi warrior]

Hey bruce, I have both jiang rong qiao xing yi translations by crandell, which one and which page is the reference to shaolin?

[bodhi warrior]

I was reading alittle of the history of this form in Doc fai wongs book. It states that zhue yuen, li sou, and bai yu feng founded the 128 posture form and took it back to shaolin temple. Now wouldn't stand to reason that more that one lineage would have this form? I mean more than one person learned it at the temple, so it could have spread to other areas by different monks.:rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

I was reading alittle of the history of this form in Doc fai wongs book. It states that zhue yuen, li sou, and bai yu feng founded the 128 posture form and took it back to shaolin temple. Now wouldn't stand to reason that more that one lineage would have this form? I mean more than one person learned it at the temple, so it could have spread to other areas by different monks.:rolleyes:

Which was my point a few pages ago, but I understand that most people will assume the GM The' stole that form from a book or by paying someone to teach it to him. Whatever...all I said was it was posible that that form is taught in other lineages besides DFW.

[MasterKiller]

i have read your posts and other peoples posts in the past that imply all sd is "kempo" like or "karate" like or is not "tcma" etc etc ... how would you describe what i have shown?

Your Tai Chi looks like Tai Chi to me. But I am uniformed, so my opinion on it really doesn't mean anything.

What I've said in the past is that SD doesn't flow like CMA. I'll revise that. The Northen sets I've seen do not flow like Northern sets should.

Here is an example of what I mean.

This guy is NOT an SD player, but his form is performed much like I have seen SD folks peform in online videos (and at AAU Nationals in Dallas):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek

Too much hard power and snap for a long fist form, and not enough continuous flow.

This is a much better example of the same form:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o

SD Northern forms have all the right movements (for the most part). No doubt about that. But The Northern "flavor" just isn't there in the stuff I've seen. SD Northern sets are performed just like SD Southern sets. Long Fist sets are supposed to exhibit relaxed power, not hard jing.

[Judge Pen]

Your Tai Chi looks like Tai Chi to me. But I am uniformed, so my opinion on it really doesn't mean anything.

What I've said in the past is that SD doesn't flow like CMA. I'll revise that. The Northen sets I've seen do not flow like Northern sets should.

Here is an example of what I mean.

This guy is NOT an SD player, but his form is performed much like I have seen SD folks peform in online videos (and at AAU Nationals in Dallas):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek

Too much power and snap for a long fist form, and not enough continuous flow.

This is a much better example of the same form:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o

SD Northern forms have all the right movements (for the most part). No doubt about that. But The Northern "flavor" just isn't there in the stuff I've seen. SD Northern sets are performed just like SD Southern sets. Long Fist sets are supposed to exhibit relaxed power, not hard jing.


So the first guy was NOT a good example of proper Northern flow and dynamic (in your opinion)? Then I guess your 100% correct, bucause I preferred his version of the form.

[MasterKiller]

So the first guy was NOT a good example of proper Northern flow and dynamic (in your opinion)? Then I guess your 100% correct, bucause I preferred his version of the form.

Correct. That is not how Northern sets should be performed. That guy is certainly talented, but that isn't Northern movement or striking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Isn't baji a Nothern System ? Same like Chen Taiji ?
There sets have Jing coming out of every orifice !

[sean_stonehart]

Isn't baji a Nothern System ? Same like Chen Taiji ?
There sets have Jing coming out of every orifice !

Yeah but baji isn't a Northern longfist. It's more akin to xingyi than chang quan.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah, long fist, gottcha.

[arinathos.valin]

If I'm not mistaken, Wen Ching Wu, the performer of the first clip, is one of the senior students of Yang Jwing-Ming and Liang Shou-Yu, both of whom have very good credentials in the internal and external Chinese arts.

If the majority of SD people could perform like Wen Ching Wu, I would have no complaints whatsoever about the quality of instruction...

[MasterKiller]

If I'm not mistaken, Wen Ching Wu, the performer of the first clip, is one of the senior students of Yang Jwing-Ming and Liang Shou-Yu, both of whom have very good credentials in the internal and external Chinese arts.

If the majority of SD people could perform like Wen Ching Wu, I would have no complaints whatsoever about the quality of instruction...

Yang doesn't move like that. Most of his students don't move like that. It seems Wen has developed his own personal flavor, which is fine, but it's not indicative or representive of typical long fist training or movement.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yang doesn't move like that. Most of his students don't move like that. It seems Wen has developed his own personal flavor, which is fine, but it's not indicative or representive of typical long fist training or movement.

My Yang moves like that, sleek and powerful baby !
:D

[GLW]

One thing you need to realize is the Wen Ching's first main teacher was Yang Jwingming.

Yang's FIRST style is Fukien White Crane - short power, lots of waist jing, etc...

Yang DID perform his long fist sets with much of that flavor back in the day. Such hard jing gets to be more refined and less obvious as you get older...or is it that you simply don't do it as much due to aging...who knows...except that those that I have known that did it when young STILL hit like a tone of whipping bricks when they are older...but it is not so obvious.

Anyway, Yang's Long Fist IS influenced by his White Crane. His sons - at least the last time I saw them, did similar methods. His daughter does not -but that is probably more of a man/woman flavoring...

So... Wen Ching's long fist has a White Crane influence. Now, after years of study with Laing Shouyu and another teacher, his northern has a softer flavor. go figure.

[MasterKiller]

OK, but again typical Northern LF sets should not move like Fukien sets.

Yang's Southern Crane may influence his movement and how he teaches, but that is not the same thing as saying Northern sets should move like Southern sets.

[tattooedmonk]

So the first guy was NOT a good example of proper Northern flow and dynamic (in your opinion)? Then I guess your 100% correct, bucause I preferred his version of the form.So did I.

I can see the guy in the second video having trouble transfering his skill to fighting more than the first.I wonder if it ever occured to anyone that maybe the way they practice it and know it to be right, is acutually wrong.:D

I see it as being different . Anyone at anytime can put whatever emphasis into any formwhether it be northern, southern ,or internal, external, etc.. It is how they like to perform it and what purpose they have in doing it that way.

But to say it is right or wrong is just , well , stupid.:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

OK, but again typical Northern LF sets should not move like Fukien sets.

Yang's Southern Crane may influence his movement and how he teaches, but that is not the same thing as saying Northern sets should move like Southern sets.why not???

[tattooedmonk]

If I'm not mistaken, Wen Ching Wu, the performer of the first clip, is one of the senior students of Yang Jwing-Ming and Liang Shou-Yu, both of whom have very good credentials in the internal and external Chinese arts.

If the majority of SD people could perform like Wen Ching Wu, I would have no complaints whatsoever about the quality of instruction... I would say a fair amount do.

[tattooedmonk]

Which was my point a few pages ago, but I understand that most people will assume the GM The' stole that form from a book or by paying someone to teach it to him. Whatever...all I said was it was posible that that form is taught in other lineages besides DFW.I believe it states in the book that it is a very well known and popular set. or something to that effect. As well as it not being a CLF set either but that it was absorbed into the system.( I own the book but do not have it in front of me.)

[MasterKiller]

I can see the guy in the second video having trouble transfering his skill to fighting more than the first.I wonder if it ever occured to anyone that maybe the way they practice it and know it to be right, is acutually wrong.
Trained fighters don't fight herky-jerky with all that snap.

Look at boxers...they flow from one punch to the next. That is how Long Fist is supposed to look. Smooth, relaxed, and flexible...


why not??? Because you have a Southern-trained guy doing Northern sets just like he does his Southern sets. Since Southern sets typically try to generate Short Power and Long Fist focuses on generating Long Power, you have a disconnect in the training purpose of the form.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Trained fighters don't fight herky-jerky with all that snap.

Look at boxers...they flow from one punch to the next. That is how Long Fist is supposed to look. Smooth, relaxed, and flexible...



:eek:

You are a bad man.

[tattooedmonk]

Trained fighters don't fight herky-jerky with all that snap.

Look at boxers...they flow from one punch to the next. That is how Long Fist is supposed to look. Smooth, relaxed, and flexible...

Because you have a Southern-trained guy doing Northern sets just like he does his Southern sets. Since Southern sets typically try to generate Short Power and Long Fist focuses on generating Long Power, you have a disconnect in the training purpose of the form. Herk-jerky?? This is his way to show the transfer of energy. How it would be used in a fight is different ,just like you know, forms are different than fighting.

There are different ways to do forms.

I would say that the reason why you see some people do it one way and someone another is because of their teacher, or personal styles, or emphasis, or any other reason.

To say that you only play a certain forms a certain way or else it is wrong is just ridiculous.

[MasterKiller]

Herk-jerky?? This is his way to show the transfer of energy.

Not with Long Fist....


There are different ways to do forms.

I would say that the reason why you see some people do it one way and someone another is because of their teacher, or personal styles, or emphasis, or any other reason.

To say that you only play a certain forms a certain way or else it is wrong is just ridiculous.

I agree to a certain extent, but violating the general principles of the style would generally be considered incorrect.

You wouldn't do Sam Chien like Hua Chuan, would you?

Conversely, you shouldn't do Long Fist like Fukien White Crane....

[sean_stonehart]

Not with Long Fist....
I agree to a certain extent, but violating the general principles of the style would generally be considered incorrect.



You wouldn't do Sam Chien like Hua Chuan, would you?



Conversely, you shouldn't do Long Fist like Fukien White Crane....


Not once but THREE times in one reply he speaks the true & simple... no muss, no fuss... somethings you just don't do.

You don't mix... chili & noodles & call it "Cinncinati Style Chili" ...
You don't mix... bbq sauce & beef & call it "Texas BBQ" ...
You don't mix... Boones Farm & Hi-C * call it "sangria" ...

You don't mix... Northern sets with Southern power generation

[tattooedmonk]

You don't mix... Northern sets with Southern power generationwhere is it written??

[MasterKiller]

where is it written??

Like I said, Long Fist forms are designed to train Long Power...Southern forms are mostly designed to train Short Power. If you do Long Fist sets while trying to show Southern Short Power, you are violating the intent and purpose of the forms. Long Fist forms are generally not designed to use a lot short power, which is why they have large, exaggerated, flowing movements. You can't properly generate Short Power with Long Fist movements, so why bother trying?

[Lamassu]

Like I said, Long Fist forms are designed to train Long Power...Southern forms are mostly designed to train Short Power. If you do Long Fist sets while trying to show Southern Short Power, you are violating the intent and purpose of the forms. Long Fist forms are generally not designed to use a lot short power, which is why they have large, exaggerated, flowing movements. You can't properly generate Short Power with Long Fist movements, so why bother trying?

I agree with you whole heartedly on this one. To mix-mash long power with Southern forms and vice versa, stunts the full potential of power in that given technique. Short power used in a long fist technique cuts off the force by shortening the distance of the strike to the target. Just like using long power in a Southern form, like white crane, leaves you open to a counterstrike.

I also agree that SDer's excecute their forms more often than not with "short" power, thus giving that "kenpo" look. Being a 1st Black Belt, most of the forms I know are from the Southern provinces and so I tend to train with that mindset. It would indeed take a Master to know the difference and train as such, keeping the excecution of the forms he knows, both North and South, separate.

BTW, my father in law promised us a digital camera for a wedding present; as soon as it arrives in the mail, I'll film myself doing some SD kung fu forms and post them here. :)

[tattooedmonk]

Like I said, Long Fist forms are designed to train Long Power...Southern forms are mostly designed to train Short Power. If you do Long Fist sets while trying to show Southern Short Power, you are violating the intent and purpose of the forms. Long Fist forms are generally not designed to use a lot short power, which is why they have large, exaggerated, flowing movements. You can't properly generate Short Power with Long Fist movements, so why bother trying?
keywords" generally and mostly". what about CLF,HG, or PM??But you have only experience in some long fist right??and not all northern or southern fists correct??

[tattooedmonk]

To reach 500.

[brucereiter]

Hey bruce, I have both jiang rong qiao xing yi translations by crandell, which one and which page is the reference to shaolin?

i am traveling right now and do not have access to my books ... it is in one of the "letters" in the from of the book. it is signed jiang rong qiao. i will be home in 3 weeks and if you remind me i will copy the page and post a link..

i think it was in the forward of one of these 2 books ...

xingyi zha shi chui & ba shi chuan _by jiang rong-jiao_translated by joseph crandall_105 pages.

or

xingyi mu chuan (xing yi mother fists) _by jiang rong-jiao_translated by joseph crandall_115 pages,

best,

bruce

[Chain Whip]

Here is an example of what I mean.

This guy is NOT an SD player, but his form is performed much like I have seen SD folks peform in online videos (and at AAU Nationals in Dallas):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek

Too much power and snap for a long fist form, and not enough continuous flow.

This is a much better example of the same form:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o

MK, do you believe that the guy in version you prefer is more powerful than in the other version? If so, why?

[brucereiter]

Your Tai Chi looks like Tai Chi to me. But I am uniformed, so my opinion on it really doesn't mean anything.

What I've said in the past is that SD doesn't flow like CMA. I'll revise that. The Northen sets I've seen do not flow like Northern sets should.

Here is an example of what I mean.

This guy is NOT an SD player, but his form is performed much like I have seen SD folks peform in online videos (and at AAU Nationals in Dallas):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek

Too much hard power and snap for a long fist form, and not enough continuous flow.

This is a much better example of the same form:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o

SD Northern forms have all the right movements (for the most part). No doubt about that. But The Northern "flavor" just isn't there in the stuff I've seen. SD Northern sets are performed just like SD Southern sets. Long Fist sets are supposed to exhibit relaxed power, not hard jing.

i will take your revision .. lol ... so how does this impact your thoughts on the content of shaolin do?
arent all of these "correct"?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kHykRsTgvXg&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bt5nN5i2xMc&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jDOtSKIJAvA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_L6iGH0VQH8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YNThNtszGYo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6JmcGD42BMk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tU3Cb60oAQ0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qEpOkV_AvKI
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek

[MasterKiller]

MK, do you believe that the guy in version you prefer is more powerful than in the other version? If so, why?

More powerful? No. I don't see a difference in power levels, just in the type of power generated. Short power has it's purposes, especially when grappling. Long Power is developed to strike from just outside the opponents range..like an anvil on the end of a rope.

Long Fist specializes in Long Power. Other styles, like Hung Gar, specialize in Short power. Two different methods.


keywords" generally and mostly". what about CLF,HG, or PM??But you have only experience in some long fist right??and not all northern or southern fists correct??

Sure there are exceptions. CLF for example. But Praying Mantis is Long Fist (at least Northern Mantis. Southern Mantis is a different beast altogether).

My CMA training is only in Long Fist. I don't dabble outside of it, I don't try to pick up other forms. I only practice my system.

But I don't live in a bubble, and I've competed against a lot of folks at Taiji Legacy, AAU, etc... I'm not completely ignorant about other methods.

[MasterKiller]

i will take your revision .. lol ... so how does this impact your thoughts on the content of shaolin do?
arent all of these "correct"?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kHykRsTgvXg&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bt5nN5i2xMc&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jDOtSKIJAvA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_L6iGH0VQH8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YNThNtszGYo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6JmcGD42BMk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tU3Cb60oAQ0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qEpOkV_AvKI
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek

No. They are not all correct. Not in my opinion.

[kwaichang]

Counting from the top #7 and the 9th one was acceptable the rest were a joke right ??? Surely you guys dont think they represent real TCMA the key word being Martial. KC

[GLW]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jDOtSKIJAvA
Kathy Yang – Yi Lu Mei Fu – Yang Jwingming’s daughter

So you can see the difference between Wen Ching's form and Kathy Yang's...both from Yang Jwingming.

As for mixing jing...and the difference... well in general, it messes things up if you do a northern long fist method using southern short jing. You CAN make it work but it is mixing two things together.

As for the difference, well, northern is longer power. It tends to drive all the way back to the feet. The movement sort of - now this is hard to explain so I may not get the words right...it is almost as if the idea for power starts in the Tan Tien...it goes to the foot for the step and then rebounds all of the way to the striking part - like the hand or the foot. In a southern short hand, the idea starts in the Tan Tien and then it simultaneously goes down to the foot AND out to the striking part - the hand or the foot.... So in one, the smoothness helps the power get from the ground to the strike (long) and in the other, the strike arrives from the Tan Tien just about the time the whole body reverbs from the power sent to the ground for the root.

[MasterKiller]

Counting from the top #7 and the 9th one was acceptable the rest were a joke right ??? Surely you guys dont think they represent real TCMA the key word being Martial. KC

2 is good. 7 is good. 9 is a horrible example of Northern Long Fist power generation (in my opinion, of course).

Does this look powerful?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC-gQgQJm6k

Why doesn't Fedor have to snap his punches?

[brucereiter]

No. They are not all correct. Not in my opinion.

all of the people in those clips learned long fist from respected tcma lineages as far as i know, is the only way to do long fist the way your teacher showed you?

you are in essence saying that several legit masters do not know what they are teaching ??? and that only your understanding is correct. that is in my opinion closed minded.

best,

bruce

[Leto]

Not once but THREE times in one reply he speaks the true & simple... no muss, no fuss... somethings you just don't do.

You don't mix... chili & noodles & call it "Cinncinati Style Chili" ...
You don't mix... bbq sauce & beef & call it "Texas BBQ" ...
You don't mix... Boones Farm & Hi-C * call it "sangria" ...

You don't mix... Northern sets with Southern power generation

Hey...I love cincinnati stye chili...my wife makes a great vegetarian version ;)

I guess that explains it. lol

[arinathos.valin]

Lineages don't make people better. My longfist teacher had impressive credentials, but his students weren't that great, and couldn't fight very well (compared to SD). What I want to do is challenge myself and learn to fight. I don't know about the system as a whole, but some of my teachers are very scary dudes when you touch hands. Not all.....but the good ones are. And it's always easy to tell the good ones apart.

I do know this, all lineage claims following from GM The' can be verified. They're all documented on SDA, SD, and CSC websites. I can follow my teacher's lineage back to GM The', and from GM The' jump back to the original lineage.

I can look at Senior Master Grooms and see where part of my teacher's knowledge comes from, just as I could look at some other SD guys from TEnnessee and Kentuck and say the exact same thing. And I can look at myself and see where all my teaching has come from, and not all of it is from the master of the school I attend. I give credit to fellow students and some of the "lower level" sifus for all I learned. I didn't learn anything from the hairy guy or GGpappy Ie. So I don't really care about that.

Seriously, leave your lineages at the door.

I would respectfully disagree with some of the points above. The fact is, lineage IS important to a certain degree. One can easily see this by how much energy is devoted by many SDers on this forum to showing a direct link to the Shaolin Temple. That in itself is a lineage question. The fact is, a link to 'Shaolin' is seen as beneficial by more than a few in the system. Otherwise, GMT could have just taken a hybrid system and called it 'ho kum do', or 'me nu do', and it shouldn't matter.

An inaccurate lineage claim, I think, is akin to plagiarism in the real world. One cannot take a journal article or book chapter, rearrange a few words, and call it an original written by yourself. Likewise, to say that a particular form originates from your system when it really does not is inaccurate and misleading. I think this is one of the reasons why the rabidly anti-SD TCMAers get so up in arms about SD. They see SD as making a lineage claim that they have no business making. It warms my heart that some upper echelon individuals are aware of the Jiang Rong Qiao and Cheng Man Ching connection... but I thinkt that far too few SD schools have that same knowledge.

Likewise, at least in TCMA, the instructors that one has learned from does indeed matter. Although a lineage is not the ONLY thing by any means, it is more likely that good students will come from good teachers. Imagine from your above example that one of the 'non-scary' lower skill teachers opens up his own school. How will the quality of instruction differ from one of the 'scary' good teachers you mentioned above?

One last point of contention... I would say that you did indeed learn from 'hairy guy' and GGpappyIe. Not directly, to be sure, but if that lineage is indeed accurate, they are the teachers of the forms that you now learn, and credit and respect should be given where it is due. We stand on the shoulders of those who came before us... that would include our forerunners...

BTW Wookie, why are you now the master of 'chu Bagua'? I much prefer the 'master of the hydrospanner' tag :)

[arinathos.valin]

Leto...

Cincinnati Chili was something that really had to grow on me...

I ate some Skyline chili a few days after coming here and said 'neh...it's OK'.

Ate it a few months later, and said 'neh... it's OK'.

Then a few months later I thought to myself 'I feel like some Skyline chili'... then did a double take and said 'WTF, where did THAT come from?'

Now we eat that stuff at least once a month.

I think Bette Midler once called it 'the devil's baby food...'

[kwaichang]

Fedor doesnt have to snap his punches due to physics Mass x Velocity. he doesnt have to snap. But he looks sloppy to me that is the worst example of shadow boxing I have seen in a while. I am sure he is strong but his Boxing technique was mediocre at best. KC

[MasterKiller]

all of the people in those clips learned long fist from respected tcma lineages as far as i know, is the only way to do long fist the way your teacher showed you?

I'm not saying my way is the only way. Most of those people are better at forms than I am.

But what I am saying is that Long Fist is supposed to be relaxed. The forms are designed to train relaxed power. That is the core principle. If you are snappy and jerky, you are being counter-productive.

My line left China in the 1940's, so it's not like I'm coming from a wushu background, either.

Sure, there are lots of ways to do things. That's what flavor is, afterall. And it's an important aspect of Chinese kung fu. But principles are principles, and individual flavor and expression should adhere to them.

In my opinion, of course. Other opinions may vary.

[MasterKiller]

Fedor doesnt have to snap his punches due to physics Mass x Velocity. he doesnt have to snap. But he looks sloppy to me that is the worst example of shadow boxing I have seen in a while. I am sure he is strong but his Boxing technique was mediocre at best. KC

Mass??? WTF???

OK, does this Superfeather weight look "snappy"? Would his Gi "pop"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-orwSN53k-M

[tattooedmonk]

Mass??? WTF???

OK, does this Superfeather weight look "snappy"? Would his Gi "pop"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-orwSN53k-Myep.:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

I was reading on a website that Master Sin has co authored three books, I know shaolin do secrets from the temple, but what are the other two??

[bodhi warrior]

I was reading on a website that Master Sin has co authored three books, I know shaolin do secrets from the temple, but what are the other two??

One is probably the book that went along with the KET television series. I've had it since '84

[Immortal_Dragon]

Well not to try and get off topic but I am often curious and wonder why there are so many martial artists out there that want to prove "true" lineage of Shaolin? We all have our own opinions on what "real" shaolin is or what it should be. I mean the number of threads that I have come across that basically pit shaolin Do vs BSL vs Songshan Shaolin vs the rest of the TCMA world is ridiculous. I mean really all those links with videos from youtube depicting certain styles/lineages is something else.....and the people performing the forms are just students not masters...so everyone is kind of laughing and poking at the person's form. I just don't get it. Really guys a million and one people train in these styles but really only a handful probably master it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I was reading on a website that Master Sin has co authored three books, I know shaolin do secrets from the temple, but what are the other two??

I found them in the back channels of Amazon's books a while back while doing searches...but they were out of print. I don't recall their titles, b/c it didn't really matter, since they're effectively dead, as the way print goes.

[Shaolin Wookie]

But what I am saying is that Long Fist is supposed to be relaxed. The forms are designed to train relaxed power. That is the core principle. If you are snappy and jerky, you are being counter-productive..


I can attest to this. I was learning LF from a Chinese dude, and he stressed the "harmony" of movement, never the "snap" we get in SD.

The fluidity of Longfist is really quite impressive when you see it firsthand. No doubt.

The one complaint my Longfist teacher had with me was my footwork combined with torso movement. He kept saying : "You not move harmony!", meaning I didn't stress or coordinate my weight shifts very well. He had me run through footwork drills for 3 months, teaching me bits of Longfist forms in between for reference. It was incredibly effective for conveying how to shift balance in a form. You just don't realize how much your heels come into play in driving your stance into the ground (in SD, some people don't know how to shift without raising the heel, and drive it instead with the ball of their foot, and wind up cross-legged [and not just beginners, sad to say], which drives the waist turn, and drives the torso, then the arm, until you take 3 months to focus on that single idea. (The only focus I'd seen in SD on that issue up to that point, was at green belt in the short stick form, and it just wasn't the same). IMy Longfist teacher really improved my body mechanics, I believe, and I still do his footwork drills to this day, and sometimes show one of them to SD guys I think need to work on their footwork. This is part of what caused my indecision on whether or not to stick with SD back in February. I left it up to GM The's demo in ATL. My eyes almost never left his feet. HE had the same exact footwork. I knew the master of my school had them. But I had to make sure teh source of it all did. Somewhere, these simple principles had gotten glossed over, lost according to influx of material, or simply had stopped getting transmitted (due to time constraints and class format with large class to few teacher ratios that sometimes happen). So I figured some of the sifus and teachers had never received some of this instruction. I can look at a few of them, and just know that if they took lessons from my old LF teacher, they'd be in for the same 3 months of footwork drills. :D Well, that's the breaks of large schools. When I was with Longfist, it was myself and this other dude with the teacher for 2 hours nonstop. The senior students pretty much took care of themselves. 2 hrs. a week, and still great instruction. Although I might not have cared for the fact they sucked at sparring and fighting, they were excellent at forms and structure--and he'd coached some forms champs, so that was his focus. Not mine, though. His few apps were pretty.....idealistic.:D

From an SD perspective, MK certainly knows what he's talking about.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I had some money to kill, and I was a bit curious as to its contents, but I picked up that lecture GM Sin gave to the Austin school in 2003 off the SDA website a couple of weeks ago. I know this is going to spark some negative debate, but it is out there for public view (and many of you won't bother to buy it), so here are some basic ideas to ponder. For SD guys, it's an interesting view, and it answered many of my questions as to the structure and history (Sin The's relation to it) in the US:

Some points GM The' addressed:

1. the explosion of forms in the late seventies and early eighties (brought up by MK, I believe)

2. the root of the snap

3. Cross-training

(some of this is just inference, so senior SD guys can verify it or debunk it as they like---as I'm just trying to piece it together from what info I can get my hands on):)

1. From what I've heard, when SD began, Sin The' only taught a couple of things. Senior guys on this forum can probably verify this. As you moved up in rank, he taught more material. But until the 70's, the forms count was probably pretty low. Then, when he began the process of purchasing his sports complex in Lexington, he asked his students for a vote of confidence and life insurance policies (optional, but would influence the insurance companies to back him in his business endeavor). They signed on. With enough enrollment from his students, the insurance company backed his sports complex. In return, he said he'd teach out more material, because it was a scratch-my-back-scratch-your-back kind of agreement. (also, in the vid, he talks about how he obtained the sports complex, and all the ingenuity he used as a niaive (his words) young man trying to realize a dream).

This is, I gather, when the forms boom happened. GM Sin said it in this lecture (as well as being pretty honest about the obtainment and eventual failure of teh complex---and his reaction to it. He was really honest in the lecture with his reaction to it, and his emotions--which showed a lot of character). People got their hands on much more material. I figure this is also where the shift in focus happened. With so much student emphasis on obtaining the forms they could, his recent receipt of GM Ie's 10th black rank, and the kind of contractual obligation to fork over material for their backing of his sports complex--the focus probably began to shift to quantity over specificity.

With the spread of SD and CSC, as it got further from the source in Kentucky, the core of the system changed, and many of the training principles were watered down, b/c students were now joining in the "forms boom" period, and had never languished:D with focusing on small bits of material for long periods of time.

Now, he also mentions the break with his brother, and how he felt betrayed at the time, and also how he got over it and came to terms with it. But he also mentions a black belt in some SW US state (I forget which) who began teaching SD without the approval of GM Sin or SD, under a different name. There was a lawsuit, b/c GM Sin felt betrayed that this guy could go and hand out belts to his students with SD's material, without having been approved by GM Sin. (Just like I wouldn't teach literature without a degree, or a teacher's certificate). So I can understand. He eventually worked something out with the ex-student on the side once he had effectively won the case (initially, he was going to lose, but then cited "trade secrets" as a legal infraction, and sealed the case), and settled it without legal repercussions (jailtime on the defendant's part). This led to the standardization of what SD and CSC teach from brown-belt on down, and led to a copyright on the material by GM Sin, so nobody else would feel empowered to teach without his approval.

Most likely, this led to a kind of apprehension about teaching "the good stuff" to just anyone on GM Sin's part. Notice, for instance, he has yet to teach Golden Snake (his master system) to any SD student. Perhaps he will at a later date, or maybe he'll keep it in the family. WHo knows? Nor have I seen his hurricane kick training, one of this other specialites....or any of the others on his Indonesian GM certificate. Only in the past decade did he start teaching the 4 Golden Leopards forms, which are the pre-req for Liu Shing (one of his speciatly styles). This after teaching for 50 years. He did teach some rarer sets as the core of the higher level training (like Hua, and 8 Immortals), which are rare in the US, and sometimes elsewhere. But these probably weren't his personal best forms, and didn't care to guard them as highly, yet thought they were integral to making strides towards higher understanding for the students. The high number of forms comes from his seminar forms and styles. He has gM Ie's notes to help him remember (although, he does have quite an impressive memory, I've heard [even from detractors]). These aren't his specialty forms, and they're just out there for those who want them.

BTW, I've seen some Hua, and it looks wicked (from a conditioning standpoint). To see some BB's run through it several times in class while I struggle w/ something infinitely easier is impressive.

All in all, I figure that's kind of what contributed to the current debate we have over the number of forms. Most of the forms are taught in seminar format on the side, and you don't have to learn them. But if you want to learn some knife work (I do!), that's how you get your introduction to it early. I know GM Sin's brother has knife work as part of his core system, as well as the TAi Peng system. We only have 1 Tai Peng form in SD. Clearly, this wasn't GM Sin's major focus in his art.

[Shaolin Wookie]

2. The snap.

I've never encountered this much in CMA, but GM The' talks about the paramount importance of the spine in generating power. Generally, all you ever hear talk about in SD and CMA is the tan'tien. But GM Sin talks about how GGM Ie taught the importance of the spine in generating power. Whether we like it or not (Me like), the strucutre of our forms is more catered to generating whipping power from the spine, rather than the tan'tien (not talking about internal). I can see how the two things are mutually reinforcing, and could be lumped together. But I can also look at all my material and say, yeah, it's a lot of spine-driven stuff. The tan-tien seems like a secondary thing. This is probably an indication of outside principles (outside of CMA) being emphasized in SD. He states quite clearly that the spine is what is important in deriving snap. I'd never really heard that in the other CMA's I'd trained. If you do the I Chin Ching, I think you can really see this.

3. Cross-training.

At some point, GM Sin accepted a challenge and was stalemated by an "internalist" on Java, or something like that. He wound up cross-training in meditation, etc. with the guy in order to learn some of his secrets. (He also says the guy was a little wrong in the head). GM Ie found out and wasn't very pleased, b/c it was done without permission. So, GM Ie began teaching GM Sin the internal arts. If I understood correctly, this training in IMA with SD material began about 3 years before GM Sin left for the U. of Kentucky.

Now, any one of us can see the logistical problems of this. GM Sin is a remarkable athelete, and he lived with his teacher in the summers, (and occasinally returned to Indonesia), so it aided in his learning of the IMA's at a faster rate than some might think possible. But still, even so. He'd have needed waaaaay more tiime. So, when he came to America, I surmise he built on his foundation with whatever material he could get his hands on--private lessons from internal masters, books, vids, whatever. This probably led to the hybridization of his internal arts (detractors will invariably say "b@stardization".:D

These are just my assumptions based on what I've found. GM Sin put a lot of stuff out there honestly that I didn't expect to heart about, and I found it interesting as it debunks much debate, and helps clarify some issues in SD. So I think it's rather unfair to say he's hiding anything. Some of you just aren't in the position (not that I am, or anything) to hear him.

I'm tired of typing, so I'm going to stop. I have to study (grad school's a trip, man! But it's the only way I can join Takeshi's Ninjitsu commune!):D, it's early, and I'm at work (well, I'm at work, but there's no work. So it's really like being locked in a room with internet, a DVD player, and my study materials....LOL).

Flame on. I'm sure this'll generate some comments.:D

[arinathos.valin]

Wookie...

Great post... thanks for the insight!

[MasterKiller]

2. The snap.

I've never encountered this much in CMA, but GM The' talks about the paramount importance of the spine in generating power. Generally, all you ever hear talk about in SD and CMA is the tan'tien. But GM Sin talks about how GGM Ie taught the importance of the spine in generating power. Whether we like it or not (Me like), the strucutre of our forms is more catered to generating whipping power from the spine, rather than the tan'tien (not talking about internal). I can see how the two things are mutually reinforcing, and could be lumped together. But I can also look at all my material and say, yeah, it's a lot of spine-driven stuff. The tan-tien seems like a secondary thing. This is probably an indication of outside principles (outside of CMA) being emphasized in SD. He states quite clearly that the spine is what is important in deriving snap. I'd never really heard that in the other CMA's I'd trained. If you do the I Chin Ching, I think you can really see this.

Spine coiling is really an internal principle. You don't hear about it too much in specialized external styles.


The one complaint my Longfist teacher had with me was my footwork combined with torso movement. He kept saying : "You not move harmony!", meaning I didn't stress or coordinate my weight shifts very well.

It's sometimes referred to as the Six Harmonies--shoulders, hips, and knees (sometimes also defined as hand, torso, and foot) all work together and counter-balance one another.

[Royal Dragon]

So I can understand. He eventually worked something out with the ex-student on the side once he had effectively won the case (initially, he was going to lose, but then cited "trade secrets" as a legal infraction, and sealed the case), and settled it without legal repercussions (jailtime on the defendant's part). This led to the standardization of what SD and CSC teach from brown-belt on down, and led to a copyright on the material by GM Sin, so nobody else would feel empowered to teach without his approval.

Reply]
You cannot copywrite movement I think it's BS.

[MasterKiller]

So I can understand. He eventually worked something out with the ex-student on the side once he had effectively won the case (initially, he was going to lose, but then cited "trade secrets" as a legal infraction, and sealed the case), and settled it without legal repercussions (jailtime on the defendant's part). This led to the standardization of what SD and CSC teach from brown-belt on down, and led to a copyright on the material by GM Sin, so nobody else would feel empowered to teach without his approval.

Reply]
You cannot copywrite movement I think it's BS.

Yeah, this is BS. I trained MMA with a student (who was also an SD black belt) of the guy he sued.

Sin The' lost. There was no jail time.

[Shaolin Wookie]

So I can understand. He eventually worked something out with the ex-student on the side once he had effectively won the case (initially, he was going to lose, but then cited "trade secrets" as a legal infraction, and sealed the case), and settled it without legal repercussions (jailtime on the defendant's part). This led to the standardization of what SD and CSC teach from brown-belt on down, and led to a copyright on the material by GM Sin, so nobody else would feel empowered to teach without his approval.

Reply]
You cannot copywrite movement I think it's BS.

Exactly. That's why he went the route of saying the guy was stealing "trade secrets". It wasn't malicious. He just wanted the same respect he felt was wanting. That you shouldn't teach without your teacher's permission. If it was malicious, he would have pressed to get teh guy in jail.

BTW, the guy in the case now teaches some kind of karate, and no SD material. Sounds to me like he lost.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Spine coiling is really an internal principle. You don't hear about it too much in specialized external styles.



It's sometimes referred to as the Six Harmonies--shoulders, hips, and knees (sometimes also defined as hand, torso, and foot) all work together and counter-balance one another.

He never called them the 6 harmonies. He just talked about coordinating the body to be more harmonious. Once you learn to do that, you can do it in just about every art. The move-by-move teaching method of SD is more reminiscent of karate, in a way. Sometimes the fluidity suffers because of it. The "never raise the heel" principle and how to shift weight over the knee, and when to do it---they get glossed over. I can see, when I'm learning, where those ideas need to be stressed, and probably were at one point....but tend to get glossed over nowadays.

Not by all, but by many.

[MasterKiller]

Exactly. That's why he went the route of saying the guy was stealing "trade secrets". It wasn't malicious. He just wanted the same respect he felt was wanting. That you shouldn't teach without your teacher's permission. If it was malicious, he would have pressed to get teh guy in jail.
This is not accurate.


BTW, the guy in the case now teaches some kind of karate, and no SD material.

This is not accurate, either.

[Shaolin Wookie]

This is not accurate.



This is not accurate, either.

You have the scoop? I never like hearing just one side of the story. If you've got links, I will listen.:)

[tattooedmonk]

So I can understand. He eventually worked something out with the ex-student on the side once he had effectively won the case (initially, he was going to lose, but then cited "trade secrets" as a legal infraction, and sealed the case), and settled it without legal repercussions (jailtime on the defendant's part). This led to the standardization of what SD and CSC teach from brown-belt on down, and led to a copyright on the material by GM Sin, so nobody else would feel empowered to teach without his approval.

Reply]
You cannot copywrite movement I think it's BS.It was not the movements it was the material within the curriculum and how the curriculum is structured I believe.

[tattooedmonk]

This is not accurate.



This is not accurate, either.I believe this came about because of a seminar issue where said instructor wanted Master Sin to come and teach the new material to his students exclusively and when things got stirred up ,said instructor decided that he and his school would not be coming to the seminar and broke away from the system , afterwards he started making videos and modified the certificate , or something along these lines. Is this the story??

[tattooedmonk]

He never called them the 6 harmonies. He just talked about coordinating the body to be more harmonious. Once you learn to do that, you can do it in just about every art. The move-by-move teaching method of SD is more reminiscent of karate, in a way. Sometimes the fluidity suffers because of it. The "never raise the heel" principle and how to shift weight over the knee, and when to do it---they get glossed over. I can see, when I'm learning, where those ideas need to be stressed, and probably were at one point....but tend to get glossed over nowadays.

Not by all, but by many.I believe terms like 6 harmonies and such were developed in more recent years as the standardization of cma so that common principles could be passed on easier. I have had on a few occasions to be discusing certain concepts andprinciples with Masters Sin, he refered to the actual movements and principles but did not use the same terminology.

[tattooedmonk]

LMAO:p:eek::):D:cool:

[Shaolin Wookie]

I believe terms like 6 harmonies and such were developed in more recent years as the standardization of cma so that common principles could be passed on easier. I have had on a few occasions to be discusing certain concepts andprinciples with Masters Sin, he refered to the actual movements and principles but did not use the same terminology.

Yeah, it's never quite as standard as most people make it out to believe. They'll usually say something, and I'm a bit confused. I ask "what does that mean?" they explain it. I say, "Oh...you mean this or that. Yeah, we just dont call it that, but it's the same thing."

Same stuff, different teachers, different wordings.

No biggie.

[MasterKiller]

I believe terms like 6 harmonies and such were developed in more recent years as the standardization of cma so that common principles could be passed on easier.
This is not accurate. Possibly the use became more common or became associated with other styles or principles, but neither the concept nor the term is 'modern.'


I have had on a few occasions to be discusing certain concepts andprinciples with Masters Sin, he refered to the actual movements and principles but did not use the same terminology. Just because your teacher never used the term does not mean it did not exist.


Yeah, it's never quite as standard as most people make it out to believe. They'll usually say something, and I'm a bit confused. I ask "what does that mean?" they explain it. I say, "Oh...you mean this or that. Yeah, we just dont call it that, but it's the same thing."

Right. People use all kinds of terms. Not using certain ones is not an indicator of lack of knowledge or skill.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Take "know-it-all" for instance.

Or maybe, I don't know, "Asshat."

What about "Douche?"

[MasterKiller]

or

"Rookie."

"Wet-behind-the-ears."

"Greenhorn."

But you got the idea.

[lkfmdc]

just in the interest of making this 500 pages :eek:

[Mas Judt]

Can somebody explain to me how something that sounds like a civil case would have jail time associated with it?

I swear the SD world seems more and more removed from reality...

[Royal Dragon]

Exactly. That's why he went the route of saying the guy was stealing "trade secrets". It wasn't malicious. He just wanted the same respect he felt was wanting. That you shouldn't teach without your teacher's permission. If it was malicious, he would have pressed to get teh guy in jail.

Reply]
Rediculous, and totally devoid of reality. Once you learn something, it is yours. You cannot copywrite, or trade mark physical movements, and if you teach them to someone you have no control or say so in how they use them, or teach them.
Even if your student teaches the same exact curriculem you do, there is not a darn legal thing you can do about it.

The only thing he might have a case with would be if the student was falsly issuing certificates of accomplishment for YOUR school and organisation, instead of his own. For example, like say someone were to be mis representing himself as being part of Chin woo, and issuing certificates in Chin Woo's name, but in reality had nothing to do with Chin Woo what so ever, let alone be in a position in the org to issue certs. Chin Woo could probably bring and win a law suit against them.

Now, if said fradulant individual were teaching the exact Chin Woo curriculem, and even stated it was such, but didn't act like a certificate issuing authorty, or acting as if he was a legit rep of Chin Woo, when he isn't, that would be perfectly fine and no one could touch him.


BTW, the guy in the case now teaches some kind of karate, and no SD material. Sounds to me like he lost

Reply]
Or found something legit to teach.....

[bodhi warrior]

So I can understand. He eventually worked something out with the ex-student on the side once he had effectively won the case (initially, he was going to lose, but then cited "trade secrets" as a legal infraction, and sealed the case), and settled it without legal repercussions (jailtime on the defendant's part). This led to the standardization of what SD and CSC teach from brown-belt on down, and led to a copyright on the material by GM Sin, so nobody else would feel empowered to teach without his approval.

Reply]
You cannot copywrite movement I think it's BS.

My understanding was the ex-student won the case. The judge said you cannot copywrite movement.

[Litikuai]

You guys are amazing. I hope you know more about Kung Fu than the case you speak of. The teacher BV was a student of EM M and was a 5th degree at the time. It was a civil case and GMT won as the guy BV was telling his students that GMT and EEM was dead. He was teaching and not fulfilling his agreement with his teacher or GMT. It was a contractual agreement and the guy was kicked out and taken to Court. The ruling was tha guy cannot teach SD and he started a school known as Premier Martial Arts. He teaches some sort of Americanized Karate now. He has been ordered to cease and the SD system as taught by GMT is Copy righted . LTK

[DPL]

Rediculous, and totally devoid of reality. Once you learn something, it is yours. You cannot copywrite, or trade mark physical movements,

And I say to you INCORRECT, SIR! I have copyrighted, trademarked, and patent-protected the gesture commonly known as 'the bird' or 'the finger'. My name appears on the patent as the inventor, and I will prosecute to the full extent of the law anyone who infringes upon my physical/intellectual property.

You have been duly warned.

[Royal Dragon]

You guys are amazing. I hope you know more about Kung Fu than the case you speak of. The teacher BV was a student of EM M and was a 5th degree at the time. It was a civil case and GMT won as the guy BV was telling his students that GMT and EEM was dead. He was teaching and not fulfilling his agreement with his teacher or GMT. It was a contractual agreement and the guy was kicked out and taken to Court. The ruling was tha guy cannot teach SD and he started a school known as Premier Martial Arts. He teaches some sort of Americanized Karate now. He has been ordered to cease and the SD system as taught by GMT is Copy righted . LTK

Reply]
Wow, the brainwashed drones will buy anything!!

[MasterKiller]

You guys are amazing. I hope you know more about Kung Fu than the case you speak of. The teacher BV was a student of EM M and was a 5th degree at the time. It was a civil case and GMT won as the guy BV was telling his students that GMT and EEM was dead. He was teaching and not fulfilling his agreement with his teacher or GMT. It was a contractual agreement and the guy was kicked out and taken to Court. The ruling was tha guy cannot teach SD and he started a school known as Premier Martial Arts. He teaches some sort of Americanized Karate now. He has been ordered to cease and the SD system as taught by GMT is Copy righted . LTK

Jesus Christ. You guys don't even know your own organization. Barry Van Over won that lawsuit.

[Royal Dragon]

I wonder where this type of info comes from? Sounds like the same type of damage controll OYD uses when they get busted in lies.

[kwaichang]

You guys are wrong I know from a good source who was there he BV didnt win. LTK is right in what he said. KC

[Royal Dragon]

You guys are wrong I know from a good source who was there he BV didnt win. LTK is right in what he said. KC

Reply]
Unless there was some sort of previous contractual agreement not to tech the specific system, or he was posing as an agent of SD after he ceased being one, Sin The Lost.

[kwaichang]

Is BV teaching SD ? No so BV LOst You act as if you are a Lawyer KC

[tattooedmonk]

Jesus Christ. You guys don't even know your own organization. Barry Van Over won that lawsuit.This is true. Master Sin specifically told me that he did not care about this or the videos after the fact .He may have cared before hand but he said he looked at the situation and said that it is such a small percentage of the material and was no big loss. I think he was pressured into file the case against him because of the "powers' that be.

[tattooedmonk]

This is not accurate. Possibly the use became more common or became associated with other styles or principles, but neither the concept nor the term is 'modern.'

Just because your teacher never used the term does not mean it did not exist.



Right. People use all kinds of terms. Not using certain ones is not an indicator of lack of knowledge or skill.I never said that the concept did not exist I said the common use of the term.And yes it is a modern term,in context.Think about the 5000year history of CMA.