Is Shaolin-Do for real? [Archive] - Page 29

Shaolin Wookie

08-26-2007, 10:16 AM

No one has still explained how 'Jail Time' works into a civil suit.

I know some have tried to copyright choreography... with mixed results.

Fraud - as in misrepresentation linked to libel 'he says I'm dead, I'm a famous guy' - is certainly something to build a case on, IF you can prove damages.

Really funny to think about it, Sin The' sueing someone for FRAUD.

Where's Judge Pen? He could Lexis/Nexis this puppy and help his breatheren get the scoop...

This of course goes back to my veracity argument. How do you ethically represent a group that you know lies through its teeth. Just to say you skirt the lies or avoid the lies does not really get you an out, because you never know where the lies cease.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when at first we attempt to deceive.

I'm the one that posted that story. I may have misunderstood......who knows? Most of what I said was just supposition, piecing together different stories.

Royal Dragon

08-26-2007, 10:42 AM

kwaichang

08-26-2007, 11:10 AM

Non competition clause is in most standard contracts I have seen KC

tattooedmonk

08-26-2007, 11:13 AM

I have observed his classes and he does not teach SD. or any of the forms it seems we have 2 different sources, mine were EMM and others who trained with BV during that time. KCHe was but not any more , from what I heard.

tattooedmonk

08-26-2007, 11:20 AM

This is correct.He was contracted. I heard from Master Sin that he admitedly said he was not affiliated( in the case) but altered the certificates and tried to leave his name on them.Once again just what I heard.

Reply]
So he was issuing certs with Sin The's signature on them after he was no longer in the org? Sin The might have a case then.

Also, if he signed a contract promising NOT to teach the SD standard curriculem if he ever left the org., Sin The might have a case then as well.

If it was me, I would never sign a contract telling me I could not teach what I have learned. I am not even sure such a contract would be legal.This was not what the case what about. once the case was settle it was not worth it to back and sue for something else.

On the west coast you used to sign a contract for a year to teach the material which needed to be updated ever year.It also states that if you leave that you can not teach martial arts for at least two years after.

I agree that they can not stop you from teaching the material, you just can not teach it in the format in which it is structured in SD/CSC.

kwaichang

08-26-2007, 11:21 AM

He was what ??? I have observed his classes over the last few years and prior to that I have seen nopthing but Karate and i say that loosely KC

tattooedmonk

08-26-2007, 11:26 AM

He was what ??? I have observed his classes over the last few years and prior to that I have seen nothing but Karate and I say that loosely KCLike I said he is not anymore. I believe he was only teaching the material right when all this happened , but not long after he stopped. This is what Master Sin said to me. I do not think he was lying , maybe he was misinformed from the people that told him.Maybe this was told to him to stir things up alittle.

tattooedmonk

08-26-2007, 11:28 AM

I do not believe you can be sent to jail in a civil case unless you fail to pay back money that is owed.

brucereiter

08-26-2007, 01:30 PM

hi ya'all,

there were questions about gmt copy rights a few post back ...
here is information available online for free from the us gov ... it answers some of the questions posed in the previous post. let me know what you think. the very last bit you might find interesting.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=77dgv9.2.1

Word Mark
GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO
Translations
SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.
Goods and Services
IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: martial arts instruction. FIRST USE: 19781015. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19850615
Mark Drawing Code
(3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code
07.01.06 - Other houses
26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded
Serial Number
78374677
Filing Date
February 26, 2004
Current Filing Basis
1A
Original Filing Basis
1A
Published for Opposition
June 28, 2005
Registration Number
2997293
Registration Date
September 20, 2005
Owner
(REGISTRANT) The, Sin Kwang INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 1<Info withheld>
Attorney of Record
Craig O. Correll
Disclaimer
NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE SHAOLIN DO APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark
SERVICE MARK
Register
PRINCIPAL
Other Data
The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.
Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE

Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results from the TARR web server.
This page was generated by the TARR system on 2006-03-10 04:49:06 ET

Serial Number: 78374677

Registration Number: 2997293

Mark

(words only): GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO

Standard Character claim: No

Current Status: Registered.

Date of Status: 2005-09-20

Filing Date: 2004-02-26

Transformed into a National Application: No

Registration Date: 2005-09-20

Register: Principal

Law Office Assigned: LAW OFFICE 113

If you are the applicant or applicant's attorney and have questions about this file, please contact the Trademark Assistance Center at TrademarkAssistanceCenter@uspto.gov__Current Location: 650 -Publication And Issue Section__Date In Location: 2005-09-20_

LAST APPLICANT(S)/OWNER(S) OF RECORD

1. The, Sin Kwang

Address:
The, Sin Kwang
<Info withheld>
United States
Legal Entity Type: Individual
Country of Citizenship: United States
Phone Number: <Info withheld>
Fax Number: <Info withheld>

GOODS AND/OR SERVICES

International Class: 041
martial arts instruction
First Use Date: 1978-10-15
First Use in Commerce Date: 1985-06-15

Basis: 1(a)

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

Disclaimer: SHAOLIN DO

Name Portrait Consent: The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.

Translation: SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.

Design Search Code(s):
07.01.06 - Other houses
26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded

MADRID PROTOCOL INFORMATION

(NOT AVAILABLE)

PROSECUTION HISTORY

2005-09-20 - Registered - Principal Register

2005-06-28 - Published for opposition

2005-06-08 - Notice of publication

2005-03-23 - Law Office Publication Review Completed

2005-03-22 - Assigned To LIE

2005-03-17 - Approved for Pub - Principal Register (Initial exam)

2005-03-17 - Amendment From Applicant Entered

2005-03-14 - Communication received from applicant

2005-03-14 - FAX RECEIVED

2004-09-17 - Examiner's Amendment And/Or Priority Action E-Mailed

2004-09-17 - Examiners Amendment And/Or Priority Action - Completed

2004-09-15 - Case file assigned to examining attorney

2004-03-15 - New Application Entered In Tram

CORRESPONDENCE INFORMATION

Correspondent
Craig O. Correll (Attorney of record)
<Info withheld>

===================================

http://www.loc.gov/cgi-bin/formprocessor/copyright/locis.pl

(Combined Search)
Search For: TITL/SHAOLIN DO
Item 1 of 1

1. Registration Number: PAu-1-493-404
Title: Shaolin do.
Description: videocassette.
Note: Cataloged from appl.
Claimant: Sin Kwang The
Created: 1980
Registered: 9Aug90
Author on © Application: Sin Kwang The.
Previous Related Version: Martial arts movements preexisting.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: selection & ordering of exercises.
Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
Special Codes: 3/D

kwaichang

08-26-2007, 01:47 PM

So Sd Was Named In 1978 Coooool Kc

brucereiter

08-26-2007, 02:01 PM

from what i understand gm ie is the person who decided to use a gi and some other "karate" type of things and gm sin the is the person who named his system "shaolin do".

kwaichang

08-26-2007, 02:11 PM

Always wondered the year the term SD was Coined. Lets see the kung fu craze was from 1971 thru 1975 or 6. then kick boxing came along PKA in 1977 as my first fight with them was 1978 so the use of the word Shaolin had little or no meaning in rural KY at that time , the series Kung fu ended in 1975 and was not heard from again until 1986 with Kung fu the Movie with Brandon Lee . So much for marketing strategy why didnt he call it chinese Kick Boxing or something like that it was popular at that time ?? It would make more sense , what do you guys think ? KC

Judge Pen

08-27-2007, 05:20 AM

The guy does teach karate, cardio-kickboxing, jiujitsu, krav maga and whatever the flavor of the month is. He teaches here in Knoxville.

My understanding of the lawsuit is that it was settled and the terms were confidential. I've looked for public documents, but haven't found any.

Judge Pen

08-27-2007, 05:21 AM

This is not accurate. Possibly the use became more common or became associated with other styles or principles, but neither the concept nor the term is 'modern.'

Just because your teacher never used the term does not mean it did not exist.

Right. People use all kinds of terms. Not using certain ones is not an indicator of lack of knowledge or skill.

You are correct. Many of the traditional terms are not taught in SD, but I believe the traditional principles are taught (to a varying degree depending on the quality of instruction).

Judge Pen

08-27-2007, 05:22 AM

Can somebody explain to me how something that sounds like a civil case would have jail time associated with it?

I swear the SD world seems more and more removed from reality...

It wouldn't. I don't know where that idea came from.

Judge Pen

08-27-2007, 05:26 AM

[QUOTE=Mas Judt;790360]

Where's Judge Pen? He could Lexis/Nexis this puppy and help his breatheren get the scoop...

[QUOTE]

I looked a while ago, and could find no reference. I'll look again. As I've said, it was my understanding that the case was voluntarily dismissed which usually means some compromise was reached. It could mean other things too, but there doesn't appear to be any documentation to allow us to do anything more than rely upon the word of others and to speculate (things that we do best on an internet forum).

MasterKiller

08-27-2007, 06:09 AM

It wouldn't. I don't know where that idea came from.

Wookie is the source of the info, stating it came from a Sin The' lecture.

I had some money to kill, and I was a bit curious as to its contents, but I picked up that lecture GM Sin gave to the Austin school in 2003 off the SDA website a couple of weeks ago.

GM Sin said it in this lecture (as well as being pretty honest about the obtainment and eventual failure of teh complex---and his reaction to it. He was really honest in the lecture with his reaction to it, and his emotions--which showed a lot of character). People got their hands on much more material.

But he also mentions a black belt in some SW US state (I forget which) who began teaching SD without the approval of GM Sin or SD, under a different name. There was a lawsuit, b/c GM Sin felt betrayed that this guy could go and hand out belts to his students with SD's material, without having been approved by GM Sin. (Just like I wouldn't teach literature without a degree, or a teacher's certificate). So I can understand. He eventually worked something out with the ex-student on the side once he had effectively won the case (initially, he was going to lose, but then cited "trade secrets" as a legal infraction, and sealed the case), and settled it without legal repercussions (jailtime on the defendant's part). This led to the standardization of what SD and CSC teach from brown-belt on down, and led to a copyright on the material by GM Sin, so nobody else would feel empowered to teach without his approval.

Baqualin

08-27-2007, 08:44 AM

BM2

08-27-2007, 09:31 AM

Mas Judt

08-27-2007, 11:18 AM

Judge Pen

08-27-2007, 11:19 AM

I had an old instructor's certificate that spelled it somthing like Shaid Liem Do. I had started in '81 and my shoulder patch has it Shao-Lin Do. I think that spelling was changed to Shaolin-Do in the '90s.

It was called and spelled Shao-lin Do in 1989 when I started.

As far as jail time, the only way that can happen in a civil case is if one is held in contempt of Court or a Court Order. If there was a Temporary Restraining Order on BV teaching SD's material, then he could be held in contempt if he broke the Order in its pendancy, but otherwise, incarceration is not a penatly in civil matters. Who knows what all went down in that lawsuit? If one could learn the name of the legal counsel that represented the parties, they may have some non-confidential information that they could share.

Baqualin

08-27-2007, 01:09 PM

It was called and spelled Shao-lin Do in 1989 when I started.

As far as jail time, the only way that can happen in a civil case is if one is held in contempt of Court or a Court Order. If there was a Temporary Restraining Order on BV teaching SD's material, then he could be held in contempt if he broke the Order in its pendancy, but otherwise, incarceration is not a penatly in civil matters. Who knows what all went down in that lawsuit? If one could learn the name of the legal counsel that represented the parties, they may have some non-confidential information that they could share.

Your teachers probally know more about this than anyone on here that's posting about it....why this has been drug up makes no sense other than gossip, has nothing to do with anything else....he was a bad seed ( more than just teaching SD material).....he's gone and it's over

The above statement is not directed towards you JP...I just know what your teachers know ....FYI
BQ

Judge Pen

08-27-2007, 01:26 PM

Your teachers probally know more about this than anyone on here that's posting about it....why this has been drug up makes no sense other than gossip, has nothing to do with anything else....he was a bad seed ( more than just teaching SD material).....he's gone and it's over

The above statement is not directed towards you JP...I just know what your teachers know ....FYI
BQ

Which is why I'm not repeating what I've heard from my teachers. I'm interested in the finer legal points and I'm trying to go on what is available as public record. And, as far as I can tell, there are none. So everything else is just hearsay and speculation.

Mas Judt

08-27-2007, 01:50 PM

Baqualin, see my post about JP above. The man rises above it.

Baqualin

08-27-2007, 01:50 PM

Which is why I'm not repeating what I've heard from my teachers. I'm interested in the finer legal points and I'm trying to go on what is available as public record. And, as far as I can tell, there are none. So everything else is just hearsay and speculation.

Exactly....I totally understand your interest as a lawyer;)
BQ

Baqualin

08-27-2007, 01:53 PM

Baqualin, see my post about JP above. The man rises above it.

I saw it & I totally agree with you......did I say that:eek:I did;)
BQ

Litikuai

08-27-2007, 04:42 PM

I have read alot of the 400 and more pages and I think kwai chang is saying the art of SD is or was developed prior to it being benificial to call a karate style Shaolin anything and I agree so those who feel the SD market thing is for money that doesnt make sense LTK

Shaolin Wookie

08-27-2007, 06:24 PM

By far the most entertaining thing I find is what I'll call the SD 'telephone game.'

Something like this lawsuit comes up - wild stories are told as 'official word' until someone more sane comes along and gives a much more rational POV (usually Judge Pen, who really should be official SD spokesperson as he seems like a nice guy, is smart and can parse between foolishness and reality).

Hmmm......let's see. Someone joins the art in 2005 or so, and tries to catch up on 50 years of controversy. Sorry, there's no such thing as informational spontaneity.;) Besides which, some of us are down here in CSC, trying to understand what happened on the other side of the country in SD, or in the Midwest.......it's all hearsay, more or less.

Parse between foolishness and reality? Some of us think reality is rather foolish. Take the Copenhagen theory of complementarity, for example......:cool:

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql4VF-9ezQI

Nebuchadnezzar

08-27-2007, 07:21 PM

---http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql4VF-9ezQI

What was that?

Baqualin

08-28-2007, 05:29 AM

What was that?

TCM.....don't you see the flavor:)

Baqualin

08-28-2007, 05:32 AM

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;790630]Hmmm......let's see. Someone joins the art in 2005 or so, and tries to catch up on 50 years of controversy. Sorry, there's no such thing as informational spontaneity.;) Besides which, some of us are down here in CSC, trying to understand what happened on the other side of the country in SD, or in the Midwest.......it's all hearsay, more or less.

Good Luck....it starts with money, greed & power.......I think you call it politics:oBQ

sean_stonehart

08-28-2007, 06:00 AM

TCM.....don't you see the flavor:)

That is actually called a bad blotter trip... :eek:

Judge Pen

08-28-2007, 06:51 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql4VF-9ezQI

This must be legitimate TCMA. There's asian script in the video. I bet he knows the secret handshake of a master.

DPL

08-28-2007, 07:21 PM

This must be legitimate TCMA. There's asian script in the video. I bet he knows the secret handshake of a master.

And Sarah Silverman's legs, too... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOHXHk9OcUE&mode=related&search=)

lkfmdc

08-28-2007, 08:39 PM

now come on already! I go away a few days and I expected this to be 500 pages, you guys are lazy! Get to work

Mas Judt

08-28-2007, 08:50 PM

Everybody s@cks.... now discuss.

(This should get us over the 500 mark.)

lkfmdc

08-28-2007, 11:02 PM

no, you suck

bodhi warrior

08-29-2007, 12:48 AM

Judge Pen

08-29-2007, 02:27 AM

This question goes out to all the SD players. Which forms in SD are your favorite and why? Example 8 drunken immortals, Hua forms, the bird forms from Master Hiang, or preying mantis, etc. I just wanted to get some opinions.

With 900 forms, its hard to pick just one! :p Seriously, I really like the Hua forms, but I'm not talented enough to do them justice. I love Hsing-Ie and the oft discussed 5 animal form. I love most of the weapon forms, but that's just tapping into my inner 8 year old that thinks swords and spears are cool. :cool:

Mas Judt

08-29-2007, 05:47 AM

"no, you s@ck" Is THAT the best you can do?

It's like "I know you are, but what am I."

Coach Ross, when did you turn into Pee Wee Herman? Waitaminnit - get back from the theatre, step away right now... put the Jergens lotion down....

Mas Judt

08-29-2007, 05:52 AM

In regards to the 'Holy Tiger' - no one said there wasn't cr@p CMA. In fact, on several times this point was made in this conversation. The existence of such does not remove the point that Sin The' claims to be THE Shaolin Grandmaster and teach the real deal. Over 900 forms - many of which have long proven histories - and only superficially are resembled by the SD material.

Judge Pen

08-29-2007, 06:35 AM

Baqualin

08-29-2007, 06:48 AM

QUOTE=Mas Judt;790912]In regards to the 'Holy Tiger' - no one said there wasn't cr@p CMA. In fact, on several times this point was made in this conversation. The existence of such does not remove the point that Sin The' claims to be THE Shaolin Grandmaster and teach the real deal. Over 900 forms - many of which have long proven histories - and only superficially are resembled by the SD material.[/QUOTE]

Didn't you mean to say re-assembled......just trying to help you help us get to 500:D
BQ

sean_stonehart

08-29-2007, 06:56 AM

I'll tell you what, If SD starts teaching "Holy Tiger" I'll quit! :D

Yeah but if they use "holy Diver" by Dio for the theme song, it'd be ok. :eek::eek:

lkfmdc

08-29-2007, 06:56 AM

I repeat,

YOU SUCK

discuss

Mas Judt

08-29-2007, 07:35 AM

Don't you mean 'Ewe Suck?"

Mas Judt

08-29-2007, 07:36 AM

I think you need to demand an answer as to why 'Holy Tiger' isn't in the SD system.

ANSWERS, man.

MasterKiller

08-29-2007, 07:59 AM

I think you need to demand an answer as to why 'Holy Tiger' isn't in the SD system.

ANSWERS, man.

Obviously, the answer is because Holy Tiger is wushu. :rolleyes:

BM2

08-29-2007, 08:40 AM

Holy Tiger, Batman! My page count is only 431.
Man, I'm really feeling my age with that Batman statement:o

Judge Pen

08-29-2007, 10:40 AM

What gives, my page count is 646.

MasterKiller

08-29-2007, 10:58 AM

Depends on your settings for how many posts you see per page. Mine is same as BM2.

Shaolin Wookie

08-29-2007, 11:46 AM

I think you need to demand an answer as to why 'Holy Tiger' isn't in the SD system.

ANSWERS, man.

It is. You perform black tiger, but wear a pope hat. Screaming and ranting like a lunatic is optional.

I recently started cross-training in swing dance. It's great for wrist locks and throws.

tattooedmonk

08-29-2007, 01:32 PM

Does anyone have any copies of the notes from Master Sin's Seminars like 5 animals , YinYang daggers, Chen Tai Chi, or Fists of Hua,Etc.That I can get copies of?? It would be greatly appreciated.

kwaichang

08-29-2007, 03:49 PM

PM me TTM I am not a doctor but I think I can help. BTW I already have learned Holy Tiger style KC

tattooedmonk

08-29-2007, 06:18 PM

PM me TTM I am not a doctor but I think I can help. BTW I already have learned Holy Tiger style KCThanks. Will do. LMAO at the Holy Tiger.

lkfmdc

08-30-2007, 10:58 AM

still only 431 pages?

you guys really suck

Yao Sing

08-30-2007, 12:25 PM

Yeah, real Shaolin would have been at least 483 by now. :D

Judge Pen

08-30-2007, 02:12 PM

Yeah, real Shaolin would have been at least 483 by now. :D

My shaolin is 647. I am the ultimate power.

MasterKiller

08-30-2007, 03:24 PM

Everyone else has 431, but the SD guy magically has 647. That's about right.

lkfmdc

08-30-2007, 03:42 PM

Everyone else has 431, but the SD guy magically has 647. That's about right.

their page count is the ONLY REAL PAGE COUNT

don't you forget it!

kwaichang

08-30-2007, 06:14 PM

Thats right I have 647 too KC You guys must be coming up short!!!

Baqualin

08-30-2007, 07:01 PM

What happens when we get to 500...does SD turn into a pumpkin:D
BQ

Yao Sing

08-30-2007, 07:15 PM

No, pumpkins turn into SD.
:eek:

Judge Pen

08-31-2007, 02:27 AM

Everyone else has 431, but the SD guy magically has 647. That's about right.

You're just jealous that we have the real page count. Maybe Gene will erect a stele for us in our honor.

MasterKiller

08-31-2007, 06:09 AM

You're just jealous that we have the real page count. Maybe Gene will erect a stele for us in our honor.

Gene can't afford the quality of Steele you guys deserve, so you'll have to pay for it. But you can just tell everyone he erected it for you.

arinathos.valin

08-31-2007, 06:27 AM

We should order two of them...

Yao Sing

08-31-2007, 07:55 AM

Gene can't afford the quality of Steele you guys deserve, so you'll have to pay for it. But you can just tell everyone he erected it for you.

So are you saying Gene's erection would be in honor of SD?

I'm confused. :confused:

arinathos.valin

08-31-2007, 08:22 AM

Let's stop this line of inquiry right now... I'm getting disturbing mental images...:eek:

sean_stonehart

08-31-2007, 08:54 AM

Gene's erections honor us all ... :D

lkfmdc

08-31-2007, 08:56 AM

Gene's erection to the top

Judge Pen

08-31-2007, 10:03 AM

Gene's erection to the top

What you want to do on your free time is your business....

MasterKiller

08-31-2007, 10:44 AM

What is more potent?

Gene's erection or Sin The's Golden Snake?

Citong Shifu

08-31-2007, 11:00 AM

Yao Sing

08-31-2007, 11:10 AM

What? You mean you don't want to read 430+ pages of nonsense?

You expect a simple answer to a simple question? Brace yourself.
:)

Citong Shifu

08-31-2007, 11:19 AM

What? You mean you don't want to read 430+ pages of nonsense?

You expect a simple answer to a simple question? Brace yourself.
:)

LOL, Well, that was kinda the idea :D. Just looking for names and dates if possible. I'm sure one the more seasoned SD guys will be able to help me with ease and very little time invested , I hope :eek:.

Judge Pen

08-31-2007, 11:20 AM

Could one of you please provide me with the names of Sin The's Shaolin kungfu teacher/s, as well as, his teacher/s, teacher/s and any other names they might have gone by going back to the destruction of Fukien Shaolin Monastery?

I was reading Sin The's bio page, he made a comment that he/school has the final version of Fukien Shaolin teachings (due to the destruction of Fukien). This statements or comment makes me a little curious about some things. Dont worry, not trying to start anything. What you guys and ST has going on is your business, doesnt matter to me one way or the other. I just want to compare it to our Fukien Shaolin lineage, etc.

Thanks.
Ron

Unless your lineage has Su Kong Tai Djian, then I doubt there will be any overlapping of teachers. GM The learned from Ie Chang Ming almost exclusively and the other teachers at the Bangdung school are not often mentioned (its not hidden either, its just that by the two accounts we have, Sin The learned almost exclusively from Ie Chang Ming). Ie Chang Ming learned from Su Kong (according to the history passed down from Sin The), but Su Kong died long before Sin The was born. I don't know if Ie Chang Ming learned from other sources as well, but that has been implied by some of us based upon a supposed letter that Ie sent to Sin The in the 70s. The veracity of that letter has not been verified, so I can't say if that's accurate or not.

Citong Shifu

08-31-2007, 11:31 AM

Unless your lineage has Su Kong Tai Djian, then I doubt there will be any overlapping of teachers. GM The learned from Ie Chang Ming almost exclusively and the other teachers at the Bangdung school are not often mentioned (its not hidden either, its just that by the two accounts we have, Sin The learned almost exclusively from Ie Chang Ming). Ie Chang Ming learned from Su Kong (according to the history passed down from Sin The), but Su Kong died long before Sin The was born. I don't know if Ie Chang Ming learned from other sources as well, but that has been implied by some of us based upon a supposed letter that Ie sent to Sin The in the 70s. The veracity of that letter has not been verified, so I can't say if that's accurate or not.

Ok, thanks. I'm sure there has to be some overlapping, not with the immediate lineage, but with one or more of the ten fukien shaolin masters that Su Kong Tai Djian trained with. Someone even had to of trained the ten masters that trained Su Kong. There's overlapping somewhere, lol... Anyway, any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Ron.

tattooedmonk

08-31-2007, 12:16 PM

Yao Sing

08-31-2007, 12:20 PM

MasterKiller

08-31-2007, 12:23 PM

Which reminds me, what ever happened to White Earp or whatever his name was who's teacher trained with Ie or something to that effect?

I really thought we were going to get some outside verification of SD's past.

Well, he caught a sh1tload of flak from the SD folks and stepped away.

I have the pictures. They verify everything he said.

His teacher plans on launching a site in a few months that will show these pics and tell his side of the story (which is quite different from Sin The's version). He asked me not to show anyone what I have until then.

tattooedmonk

08-31-2007, 12:40 PM

Ok, thanks. I'm sure there has to be some overlapping, not with the immediate lineage, but with one or more of the ten fukien shaolin masters that Su Kong Tai Djian trained with. Someone even had to of trained the ten masters that trained Su Kong. There's overlapping somewhere, lol... Anyway, any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Ron.3 Masters names that taught with Ie Chang Ming in Indonesia: Liu Su Peng, Je Jou (Shiao) Fu, And Qui Kwong .These are on Master Hiang's website.

Citong Shifu

08-31-2007, 01:39 PM

Great Idea. Master Hiang The' used to have a list of the four masters that came with Ie on his site.I have not been able to find that list. Another thing that would be great is to find out which Fukien Temple Su Kong was at.Do you know which of the Fukien Temples your art came from??

Yea, Location was Quanzhou known in ancient times as Citong. Actually The little town of Citong still sits in the middle of Quanzhou. Marco Polo wrote about the city of Citong when traveling through Quanzhou. There is even a road called Citong that was suppost to lead to the temple, in the old days.

Anywho, just trying to collect some info.

Ron

Yao Sing

08-31-2007, 03:55 PM

That wouldn't happen to be in the jade market area would it? I've heard that Marco Polo stopped at a Temple in that part of town. There is a staute supposedly of him there too. Let me see if I can remember the name of that area and the Temple.

Hmmmm......

kwaichang

08-31-2007, 04:48 PM

MK go ahead and post it I think you are full of shizen KC:confused:

Woof

08-31-2007, 09:52 PM

I found them in the back channels of Amazon's books a while back while doing searches...but they were out of print. I don't recall their titles, b/c it didn't really matter, since they're effectively dead, as the way print goes.

Karate, Techniques of Self Defense as Taught by Master Sin The, 10th Dan of Shaolin Karate, and Master Hiang The, 8th Dan of Shaolin Karate

Currently 1 copy for $42 at half.com

tattooedmonk

09-01-2007, 01:39 AM

Karate, Techniques of Self Defense as Taught by Master Sin The, 10th Dan of Shaolin Karate, and Master Hiang The, 8th Dan of Shaolin Karate

Currently 1 copy for $42 at half.comThanx. I got it . They also have one for $110.

MasterKiller

09-01-2007, 05:52 AM

MK go ahead and post it I think you are full of shizen KC:confused:

Sorry, bro. I told WhiteEarp I wouldn't post them. But he did say I could tell you what I have.

Pic One: Ie training a big white dude (Earp's teacher). White dude is throwing a punch from horse and Ie using a forearm block to deflect.

Pic Two: Ie and white dude both standing in Praying Mantis stance.

Pic Three: Group shot. Indonesian dude, white dude, Ie, Hiang The, Indonesian dude.

Pic Four: Large group shot of whole class. There is a huge white dude in the picture (he's got to be at least 6'4). I think Earp said he was a visiting Judo fighter. I don't recognize anyone else except what is apparently a young Sin The' (probably 14 or 15) standing next to Ie.

Personally, I think these pics are cool. If it is Ie (he looks just like the paintings), it shows the old guy in action.

kwaichang

09-01-2007, 06:38 AM

My apologies these all sound + for SD I thought you were going to be derogatory again my Apologies KC

Shaolin Wookie

09-01-2007, 09:10 AM

Sorry, bro. I told WhiteEarp I wouldn't post them. But he did say I could tell you what I have.

Pic One: Ie training a big white dude (Earp's teacher). White dude is throwing a punch from horse and Ie using a forearm block to deflect.

Pic Two: Ie and white dude both standing in Praying Mantis stance.

Pic Three: Group shot. Indonesian dude, white dude, Ie, Hiang The, Indonesian dude.

Pic Four: Large group shot of whole class. There is a huge white dude in the picture (he's got to be at least 6'4). I think Earp said he was a visiting Judo fighter. I don't recognize anyone else except what is apparently a young Sin The' (probably 14 or 15) standing next to Ie.

Personally, I think these pics are cool. If it is Ie (he looks just like the paintings), it shows the old guy in action.

He sent me that pic as well. You're forgetting to mention that the Shaolin Abbot is standing in the picture with a thumbs-up and a peace sign, and is wearing an American flag robe, eatin' a hotdog with all the fixins.

Translation: "I thought it was a cool picture, but I won't give it out to anyone under any circumstances, because my faux identity is in fact White Earp, and I just got the pictures off some random internet site anyways, because I thought it would be funny to troll like 'dat. Yah...dis is troo (in Dutch accent)."

MasterKiller

09-01-2007, 02:07 PM

He sent me that pic as well. You're forgetting to mention that the Shaolin Abbot is standing in the picture with a thumbs-up and a peace sign, and is wearing an American flag robe, eatin' a hotdog with all the fixins.

Translation: "I thought it was a cool picture, but I won't give it out to anyone under any circumstances, because my faux identity is in fact White Earp, and I just got the pictures off some random internet site anyways, because I thought it would be funny to troll like 'dat. Yah...dis is troo (in Dutch accent)."

LOL. Patience, padawan.

WhiteEarp is who he said he is. His teacher has a different take on the school in Indonesia and the history, but he does corroborate a lot of stuff for you guys. I would think you would be happy to have found a martial cousin with such close ties to your Sitaigung.

Judge Pen

09-01-2007, 06:28 PM

LOL. Patience, padawan.

WhiteEarp is who he said he is. His teacher has a different take on the school in Indonesia and the history, but he does corroborate a lot of stuff for you guys. I would think you would be happy to have found a martial cousin with such close ties to your Sitaigung.

I am happy. I admit I was skeptical that WhiteEarp was a troll, but if he can verisfy a bit of what we say, then it is a good thing.

kwaichang

09-01-2007, 07:21 PM

Hey lets have a meeting and all sing koonbayaa , is that how it is spelled ?? KC

BM2

09-01-2007, 07:39 PM

Well, he caught a sh1tload of flak from the SD folks and stepped away.

I have the pictures. They verify everything he said.

His teacher plans on launching a site in a few months that will show these pics and tell his side of the story (which is quite different from Sin The's version). He asked me not to show anyone what I have until then.

I had wondered what happened to him and was also unaware that some on here gave him some crap :(. I did see two pics that he posted and hope that he comes back on here.

Yao Sing

09-01-2007, 08:30 PM

I had wondered what happened to him and was also unaware that some on here gave him some crap :(. I did see two pics that he posted and hope that he comes back on here.

I remember seeing those pics and also would like to sou know, free flow of information and all that.

Baqualin

09-02-2007, 01:20 PM

I had wondered what happened to him and was also unaware that some on here gave him some crap :(. I did see two pics that he posted and hope that he comes back on here.

I'm the one who gave him some crap....he sent me the same pictures....GMIe only taught chinese students period.....once again MK, the one picture is of a young M. Hiang & his grandfather...that one is not available on the internet....seen same picture from one of Hiang's students...wouldn't think there would be to many of that particular picture floating around....1+1+1=3 you tell me:rolleyes:BQ

Shaolin Wookie

09-02-2007, 02:02 PM

BQ, he's like Sherlock Holmes, he is.;)

Yao Sing

09-02-2007, 04:46 PM

I'm the one who gave him some crap....he sent me the same pictures....GMIe only taught chinese students period.....once again MK, the one picture is of a young M. Hiang & his grandfather...that one is not available on the internet....seen same picture from one of Hiang's students...wouldn't think there would be to many of that particular picture floating around....1+1+1=3 you tell me:rolleyes:BQ

So the picture isn't of Ie but their grandfather? And Ie isn't their grandfather?

So their grandfather taught non-chinese?

Shaolin Wookie

09-03-2007, 05:54 AM

So the picture isn't of Ie but their grandfather? And Ie isn't their grandfather?

So their grandfather taught non-chinese?

For whatever reason, Hiang's camp refers to GM Ie as his grandfather. This is not something GM The' purports. He doesn't know where Hiang got that from.

Maybe out of respect. Maybe because they lived with GGM Ie during the summers. Who knows?

MasterKiller

09-03-2007, 06:00 AM

once again MK, the one picture is of a young M. Hiang & his grandfather...that one is not available on the internet....

You mean the one with WE's teacher also?

WhiteEarp's teacher says Ie was their grandfather. I have other pictures of WhiteEarp's teacher as well working out, so I don't think he is from Hiang's camp, if that is what BQ is implying.

Does Sin say his grandfather taught martial arts? Because from these pictures this guy is obviously A) running a club and B) training students.

Shaolin Wookie

09-03-2007, 07:08 AM

MK, what were these pictures supposed to prove?

Just that WE's teachers had links to him?

BlueTravesty

09-03-2007, 08:11 AM

Also, remember that in the Confucian-inspired Chinese Martial "Family" structure Grandfather has an equivalent term- Sigung.

If it WAS Ie, perhaps he was referring to him as his Sigung, rather than his actual biological grandfather. Just a thought. Here are a couple of salt grains to take it with.

. . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . .

MasterKiller

09-03-2007, 08:46 AM

MK, what were these pictures supposed to prove?

Just that WE's teachers had links to him?

They don't prove anything. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

Shaolin Wookie

09-03-2007, 08:52 AM

Sometimes it's a fatty, though.

lkfmdc

09-03-2007, 09:16 AM

Shaolin Do?

thewayofshaolin.com

Looks like it

Discuss

Shaolin Wookie

09-03-2007, 09:21 AM

If it is, it's a fourth degree BB who has cross-trained in some other stuff and added that to the cirriculum, and China-fied the names/forms/styles. Jaysus, that's a lot of material.

bodhi warrior

09-03-2007, 09:38 AM

Shaolin Do?

thewayofshaolin.com

Looks like it

Discuss

It definitely looks like SD material mixed with some other stuff. It could be an ex Hiang student. I think Hiang had the Yue Fei 18 continuous pos. I haven't seen this listed in SD curriculum.

MasterKiller

09-03-2007, 10:11 AM

That's TattooedMonk's website.

Shaolin Wookie

09-03-2007, 11:35 AM

That's TattooedMonk's website.

Should've figured. But I swore he said he was in FL.

Shaolin Wookie

09-03-2007, 11:36 AM

It definitely looks like SD material mixed with some other stuff. It could be an ex Hiang student. I think Hiang had the Yue Fei 18 continuous pos. I haven't seen this listed in SD curriculum.

I think they teach this at brown sash in CSC's internal arts, if I'm not mistaken.

Judge Pen

09-03-2007, 11:53 AM

It definitely looks like SD material mixed with some other stuff. It could be an ex Hiang student. I think Hiang had the Yue Fei 18 continuous pos. I haven't seen this listed in SD curriculum.

Yue Fei 18 postures is floating around out there. I've seen if referenced at a few websites.

bodhi warrior

09-03-2007, 12:49 PM

Yue Fei 18 postures is floating around out there. I've seen if referenced at a few websites.

So are these just static postures like the i chin ching?

Shaolin Wookie

09-03-2007, 01:06 PM

Kind of. You're basically in a low horse stance, and you rise and fall with your breaths slightly, and your hands do something as well. Shaolindoiscool would be the dude to ask. I think it looks like archery movements.

I quit the internal program just before learning this. I'm not big on internal stuff.

sean_stonehart

09-03-2007, 01:58 PM

Shaolin Do?

thewayofshaolin.com

Looks like it

Discuss

Reminds me of a duck...
looks like...
walks like...
sounds like...
tastes like (after being properly cooked)...

Funny though that this place has seemed to expanded on the original SD curriculum by adding:

Wing Chun
Choy Li Fut
Hung Ga
Mien Quan
Liu He Ba Fa
Ba Duan Jin
Xi Sui Jing

Wonder what ST thinks about things being added?? Even better... who are the teachers??

bodhi warrior

09-03-2007, 02:39 PM

Reminds me of a duck...
looks like...
walks like...
sounds like...
tastes like (after being properly cooked)...

Funny though that this place has seemed to expanded on the original SD curriculum by adding:

Wing Chun
Choy Li Fut
Hung Ga
Mien Quan
Liu He Ba Fa
Ba Duan Jin
Xi Sui Jing

Wonder what ST thinks about things being added?? Even better... who are the teachers??

I wouldn't think they like it too much. I know some teachers that attempted to add some material they got from outside people, and they were given a choice. Either get rid of the new material, or your out. They chose to be out.

tattooedmonk

09-03-2007, 05:08 PM

Out of CSC/SD.

sean_stonehart

09-03-2007, 05:32 PM

kwaichang

09-03-2007, 05:43 PM

Show me the Money Show me the Money , that is what its about man who cares about the Origin or how good you have something Its about the money what a shame KC

tattooedmonk

09-03-2007, 06:52 PM

Ok if you're out, say you've been out a while...

why do you still teach it if you've been picking up these other systems (Hung Ga, CLF, WC, LHBF, Zha Quan, etc...)??? Where have you had time to properly ingest one of them, let alone all of them?I am learning them as they are being taught . I have teachers from these other styles /systems come and teach .Kung Fu is my life.

tattooedmonk

09-03-2007, 06:54 PM

Show me the Money Show me the Money , that is what its about man who cares about the Origin or how good you have something Its about the money what a shame KC I could careless about the money.Never have. I just want to have a training center/ school where the arts can be brought together,shared and preserved . I teach for free ,but most make donations.

sean_stonehart

09-03-2007, 07:21 PM

I am learning them as they are being taught . I have teachers from these other styles /systems come and teach .Kung Fu is my life.

Have any of them certified you to teach?

How long have you been with "them"? Who are "they"?

C'mon ... if everything's on the up & up... what's to worry?

BlueTravesty

09-03-2007, 07:23 PM

Show me the Money Show me the Money , that is what its about man who cares about the Origin or how good you have something Its about the money what a shame KC

Forgive me if I misunderstand, and for interjecting, but if I may say-

With all due respect, I think the irony of hearing one SD'er saying this to a former SD/CSC'er who is taking the bold risk of teaching a curriculum without using ties to a larger organization from which he got the bulk of his material is obvious.

Say, Pot, have you heard about that gent Kettle? I hear he's quite a card. You two may have much in common.

tattooedmonk

09-03-2007, 07:57 PM

Have any of them certified you to teach?

How long have you been with "them"? Who are "they"?

C'mon ... if everything's on the up & up... what's to worry? This thread is about SD and not me.So if you have any questions you know what to do.

BM2

09-04-2007, 07:46 AM

I wouldn't think they like it too much. I know some teachers that attempted to add some material they got from outside people, and they were given a choice. Either get rid of the new material, or your out. They chose to be out.

:confused:

1. Periodically, Masters from outside the temple were asked to teach their style so the temple wouldn't stagnant.
2. Master Ie picked up material from different martial artists as he travelled around China, North Korea.
3. Who are "they"?

bodhi warrior

09-04-2007, 08:46 AM

:confused:

1. Periodically, Masters from outside the temple were asked to teach their style so the temple wouldn't stagnant.
2. Master Ie picked up material from different martial artists as he travelled around China, North Korea.
3. Who are "they"?

When EM master leonard found out some black belts were attending some seminars by teachers from other styles and wanting to teach some of that material, he wasn't too happy about it. He gave them a choice, so they went their own way.

tattooedmonk

09-04-2007, 10:59 AM

When EM master leonard found out some black belts were attending some seminars by teachers from other styles and wanting to teach some of that material, he wasn't too happy about it. He gave them a choice, so they went their own way.If I had a choice I would go back to SD.

tattooedmonk

09-04-2007, 11:03 AM

Thanx. I got it . They also have one for $110.The copy for $110 copy is now available for $162.41

Woof

09-04-2007, 11:42 AM

The copy for $110 copy is now available for $162.41

The $42 copy was a decent deal. $162 is a joke. :rolleyes:

There are many places to buy books from including Abebooks and Alibris.

Amazon currently has a copy for $20.
ISBN 0897080998

Even the Kool Aid drinkers should question spending more than $100 on a copy of this out of print title.

kwaichang

09-04-2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaichang
Show me the Money Show me the Money , that is what its about man who cares about the Origin or how good you have something Its about the money what a shame KC

Forgive me if I misunderstand, and for interjecting, but if I may say-

With all due respect, I think the irony of hearing one SD'er saying this to a former SD/CSC'er who is taking the bold risk of teaching a curriculum without using ties to a larger organization from which he got the bulk of his material is obvious.

Say, Pot, have you heard about that gent Kettle? I hear he's quite a card. You two may have much in common.

You are forgiven because you are making a blanket statement and you are Judging someone that you dont know KC

tattooedmonk

09-04-2007, 12:50 PM

The $42 copy was a decent deal. $162 is a joke. :rolleyes:

There are many places to buy books from including Abebooks and Alibris.

Amazon currently has a copy for $20.
ISBN 0897080998

Even the Kool Aid drinkers should question spending more than $100 on a copy of this out of print title.This copy at amazon.com is at $174 now.

Woof

09-04-2007, 12:54 PM

If I had a choice I would go back to SD.

That makes no sense. What is preventing you?

Woof

09-04-2007, 01:02 PM

This copy at amazon.com is at $174 now.

No. The $20 copy sold. I would not bother mentioning an over priced copy.

brucereiter

09-04-2007, 01:48 PM

So are these just static postures like the i chin ching?

here is a example of a few postures of yeah feah the way i understand it ...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9IXaWXuSNhA

best,

bruce

Judge Pen

09-04-2007, 06:14 PM

here is a example of a few postures of yeah feah the way i understand it ...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9IXaWXuSNhA

best,

bruce

Its pretty similar to the expression that I've seen. Except the performer did the horse stance with the heels of the ground and they repreated each posture 18 times before moving on to the next posture.

brucereiter

09-04-2007, 06:50 PM

Its pretty similar to the expression that I've seen. Except the performer did the horse stance with the heels of the ground and they repreated each posture 18 times before moving on to the next posture.

hi jp,

some practices i have my heels up high and other as seen in the clip. i was taught heels up standing as high as you can on the balls of your feet.

regarding the counts i have learned 2 ways of doing it and i alternate between them from practice to practice.

#1 each posture 1 x repeating the whole thing 18 times

#2 each posture 18 x ... repeating the whole thing once.

best,

bruce

bodhi warrior

09-04-2007, 11:53 PM

Has anyone seen any of these forms of Master Hiang's? I'm just curious as to whether their anything like our white crane or bird forms.

tattooedmonk

09-05-2007, 12:32 AM

Has anyone seen any of these forms of Master Hiang's? I'm just curious as to whether their anything like our white crane or bird forms.What belt level are you?? Have you not seen Tai Peng Sin Kuen??

bodhi warrior

09-05-2007, 01:10 AM

What belt level are you?? Have you not seen Tai Peng Sin Kuen??

I'm a black belt. Yes i've had tai peng sin kuen. I'm talking about the 17 or 18 tai peng forms that master hiang teaches.

Judge Pen

09-05-2007, 06:26 AM

hi jp,

some practices i have my heels up high and other as seen in the clip. i was taught heels up standing as high as you can on the balls of your feet.

regarding the counts i have learned 2 ways of doing it and i alternate between them from practice to practice.

#1 each posture 1 x repeating the whole thing 18 times

#2 each posture 18 x ... repeating the whole thing once.

best,

bruce

That makes sense. Thanks for sharing.

Judge Pen

09-05-2007, 06:28 AM

Couldn't say about the other tai peng forms. I've only seen the first tai peng form. I'm sure some of the "old timers" can comment if they were around when Hiang The was teaching with Sin The.

kwaichang

09-05-2007, 01:49 PM

I learned 1-4 Tai Peng all are similar but I like the 3rd the best KC

tattooedmonk

09-05-2007, 02:17 PM

I learned 1-4 Tai Peng all are similar but I like the 3rd the best KCCool.:cool:

Shaolin Wookie

09-05-2007, 05:07 PM

Has anyone seen any of these forms of Master Hiang's? I'm just curious as to whether their anything like our white crane or bird forms.

Someone who'd seen them and done them once told me they were very alike. Don't recall who. I have to imagine that there's great variation with 18 or so forms that Hiang teaches, but who knows? Tai Peng Sin Kune is great for the legs, but I don't like it for me, anyways (but I love the other 3 animal forms you get off the bat).

Shaolin Wookie

09-05-2007, 05:20 PM

I wouldn't think they like it too much. I know some teachers that attempted to add some material they got from outside people, and they were given a choice. Either get rid of the new material, or your out. They chose to be out.

It's cool to learn stuff from the outside sometimes, but I'd have to say, from the standpoint of teaching a certain art, you ought to keep it to that art. I might learn principles of movement in capoeira that I can relate to CMA in general (especially in the function of bow stances and kicking transitions), and some of these principles will be of benefit to peers, but teaching capoeira outright would be kind of funny (and sometimes, to be honest, I find outside arts actually are to the detriment of my SD. You have to learn it as is, and not try to impose too much "stereotypically Shaolin" stuff onto it.). If you want to teach an outside art, then you ought to teach it outside the art, as its own art.

Some of you guys on here (SD/non-SD alike, but mostly the latteR) are kind of funny. You learn from one teacher a more "traditional" art, with small forms, from a guy that's probably never stepped far from his own tradition. But you're always going to get his perspective, full of his prejudices, full of his interpretations. It's basic psychology and biology. You're going to be fascinate by the exotic (different) approach) and feel it's better bassed on that association. I have a capoeira teacher that can rifle off spinning kicks in less than half the blink of an eye, and never lose sight of you for a second, because he knows where to look (under the arm), even though he's bent over and touching the floor. And he can transition out of it if he doesn't like the way it's going without losing any advantage. But do that kick in a CMA class, and you'll get ridiculed.

Hey, do what you like, but everything, at some point, has value. Did you work it enough, is the thing. Just like ex-SD'ers who find edification outside the art. I hear the stuff some of you say, regarding stances, etc. Hell, I've got my stances. Saw 'em in Longfist, wing chun, etc. They're all there in SD. The difference is how your teacher focuses. Does he hold your hand for an hour so you can step correctly, or will he let you feel what you're doing. Generally, you get one or the other, but a blend of them would be better I think. My stances were good from SD, and my Longfist teacher commented on their strength. But he also said I wasn't coordinated at certain periods of my transitions. Then I watch my friend Richie run through a form, and I see great coordination, with no strength......

That's the value of looking around. So now when I help peers with their stuff, when they ask for advice, I have a well-rounded perspective. But it's not really an outside art. It's just a well0rounded opinion. Some of the ex=SD guys I've aked this question: "did you learn nothing of value in SD?" They say. "Not really, in retrospect." I think in reply: "Probably didn't try hard enough."

Now, for that Arizona school teaching BJJ and SD, I'd have to imagine the guy teaches with a different structure for days/material, and that's cool, so long as he doesn't blend them altogether. That's the determination the student should make, not the teacher.Like teach SD. Teach BJJ. Not BJJSD. Teachers in SD should pretty much just stick to teaching SD. Know what I mean? It has tai chi, pakua, drunken, hua, and a multitude of other things. It doesn't really need anything other than what it has. If anything, it's too big already. But if certain people, like myself, mess around on the outside, why not jsut respect the arts and keep them separate? Sure, I warm up sometimes with some capoeira stuff, and I might break into a negativa here or there in sparring, but it's my volition, my practice, and nobody else's. When I do a form, I don't break into capoeira. When I do capoeira, I don't break into crane.

I don't even know if what I said makes sense. Does to me.

Say, if I was asked to assist in teaching an elementary crane form, I wouldn't describe it with capoeria terminology. I'd describe how it felt, it's function, its flow....I suppose that's where the unity of the MA's really is. Might be a feeling I got in capoeira or Longfist, but it's still SD material. MAybe that makes more sense.

Shaolin Wookie

09-05-2007, 05:24 PM

If I had a choice I would go back to SD.

Ah, sounds to me like you're doing fine. Everyone picks a path, deals with it, and hopefully learns from it. Doesn't sound like your negative experiences got the best of you. Disregard the BS stuff these other guys are saying. I'm sure you did anyways.:cool:

MasterKiller

09-05-2007, 08:09 PM

It's cool to learn stuff from the outside sometimes, but I'd have to say, from the standpoint of teaching a certain art, you ought to keep it to that art. .
I disagree. Teach everything you know. If that changes the purity of the art, just be honest about it to your students.

That is the original CMA philosophy, after all. Blend and adapt.

Chain Whip

09-06-2007, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie
It's cool to learn stuff from the outside sometimes, but I'd have to say, from the standpoint of teaching a certain art, you ought to keep it to that art. .

I disagree. Teach everything you know. If that changes the purity of the art, just be honest about it to your students.

That is the original CMA philosophy, after all. Blend and adapt.

MasterKiller is right.

Shaolin Wookie

09-07-2007, 10:33 AM

MasterKiller is right.

I agree, I guess. Maybe I'm just too self-conscious about styles. I guess I'm a little hesitant to influence peers in mixing the arts, b/c there's a business side to it, and I don't wanna lead someone away from any school. I do talk about one art to people in the other school, just because I like to note many similarities, and help give tips (capoeira sometimes needs tips in power generation for spinning kicks, b/c they don't know how it feels to try and kick through something, or regroup after your foot hits and stops), and sometimes SD peeps need a tip on how to keep flow going in a series of spinning kicks, or maybe even just one.

I do like MK's philosophy, but I'm not a teacher, so I don't want to be disrespectful to my schools and teachers, since I'm a student.

MasterKiller

09-07-2007, 11:40 AM

and help give tips

I'm not a teacher

No offense, but if you are a student, just be a student. Let the teachers do the teaching.

brucereiter

09-07-2007, 05:04 PM

No offense, but if you are a student, just be a student. Let the teachers do the teaching.

hi ya'all,

i think it is important for a "student" at some point and under close supervision of his/her own teacher help to teach other students. teaching really can help you understand what you do and do not know.

"we" are not supposed to "teach" without express permission from our own teachers. but i do not think wookie is trying to "teach" anything more than

<hey i found i can get more power if i do it that way instead of like this ... try that ...>
i think if a young student says to another as i understand it, it could be better if you xyz blh blink blah instead of the way you are doing it ... ... ... ... but you should ask the teacher just to be sure.

i do not think he is trying to lead class or anything ...

of coarse there is always danger of the young student trying to teach something very different than the main teacher is showing and adding more confusion to the other students instead of helping, i think this is where the close supervision comes into play.

in general it is not ok to add new material unless you are a "certified" teacher, but it is generally ok to help a student with his "old" material.

best,

bruce

BlueTravesty

09-07-2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaichang
You are forgiven because you are making a blanket statement and you are Judging someone that you dont know KC

Your forgiveness is appreciated. And my apologies for the delay in my response

Understand, that in both this and the preceding rebuttal have been made under the assumption that your original comment was in reference to TTM and his school. If they were not, please let me know.

If this statement

Originally Posted by kwaichang
Show me the Money Show me the Money , that is what its about man who cares about the Origin or how good you have something Its about the money what a shame KC
is in reference to TTM's school, I take it that you have some knowledge of TTM and his school that qualifies you to say that he is teaching the SD-based and other material only for the money without it being a blanket statement- and I'm sure you must know him as a person well enough to judge him as such.

My point was not to judge YOU, per se, but I find it interesting that a proponent of SD/CSC/Whatever-the-heck of all things, is coming down on someone else with the point "It's all about the money, who cares about the origin." Again, pot and kettle.

I don't know TTM, and I do not agree with quite a few things he has said, but I would think if TTM was going to do it just for the money, he would have no problem invoking the name of SD to promote his school. SD is a very large, almost ubiquitous organization, and let's be honest- it's pretty darn lucrative. Nothing wrong with being big or lucrative, of course, but there it is. He probably doesn't mention "the origin" on his site out of respect for an organization that he is no longer a part of. Here are some more salt grains. ....

Chain Whip

09-07-2007, 09:36 PM

Good points made elsewhere that apply perfectly here.

quotes from another thread ---kfmdc

I do not know a single thing about LHBF, about Sigung Chan or about lineage

I do however know Sifu Choi....

HE IS THE REAL THING, HE HAS VERY STRONG KUNG FU, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, HE CAN FIGHT WITH IT

Grandmaster The' has very strong kung-fu -- and HE CAN FIGHT WITH IT

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

another quote from kfmdc

come on, by now we all know, being attacked on the internet by gutless geeks should be taken as a compliment, you must be doing something right

f-em, they're idiots

Considering how much GMT and SD have been attacked - we must REALLY BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT --- thanks for the compliment's ya'all

Quote from the same thread --- SevenStar

lineage, schmineage. choi's skill level far outweighs any real or fake lineage claims. Why do people get so wrapped up in lineage?

We have been asking the same question for over 400 pages -- good luck getting an answer that makes any sense.

Another quote from the same thread --TaiChiBob

Periodically, people show-up to discredit this master ot that master.. it's the nature of the game.. I've trained with Master Choi, and regardless of lineage, he has the goods.. by that, i mean he can back-up his lessons with usable applications.. and, from my perspective, applications that work beat lineages that don't.. cripe, we all know of "Masters" with ancient verifiable lineages but that produce no fighters, and rarely are seen training "real" applications.. so, do you pay a paper Tiger.. or, do you pay for lessons that work..

good question - " so, do you pay a paper Tiger.. or, do you pay for lessons that work.." from reading this thread the resounding answer is ..... PAY THE PAPER TIGER!!!

DPL

09-07-2007, 10:12 PM

LOL - Now ChainWhip, you don't really expect them to be consistent do you? SD's one of their favorite whipping mules and they're not going to let a little thing like consistent application of values get in their way.

tattooedmonk

09-07-2007, 10:52 PM

...... I do not agree with quite a few things he has said ....like what??:D:cool:

you are right if I was trying to make money I would be telling everyone with whom I have studied ,among other things.:p I have a great deal of respect for GM Sin and for the Art . I have lost a great deal of respect for a few people though.

By the way I teach for FREE

bodhi warrior

09-07-2007, 11:56 PM

like what??:D:cool:

you are right if I was trying to make money I would be telling everyone with whom I have studied ,among other things.:p I have a great deal of respect for GM Sin and for the Art . I have lost a great deal of respect for a few people though.

By the way I teach for FREE

It sounds like what you got goin on is the way it used to be in the oldin days, back in indonesia. Or at least the way it was explained to me. I like to idea of people getting together and working on stuff and making it work.

unkokusai

09-07-2007, 11:58 PM

By the way I teach for FREE

You may be overcharging.

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 01:14 AM

No offense, but if you are a student, just be a student. Let the teachers do the teaching.

Students talk and trade tips. Nothin' wrong with that.

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 02:36 AM

Good points made elsewhere that apply perfectly here.

Grandmaster The' has very strong kung-fu -- and HE CAN FIGHT WITH IT

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Considering how much GMT and SD have been attacked - we must REALLY BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT --- thanks for the compliment's ya'all

We have been asking the same question for over 400 pages -- good luck getting an answer that makes any sense.

good question - " so, do you pay a paper Tiger.. or, do you pay for lessons that work.." from reading this thread the resounding answer is ..... PAY THE PAPER TIGER!!!

LOL....:D...

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 06:45 AM

To teach a style form or art and not honor the teacher or where you learned it is dishonorable. The only thing that seperates us MA from street thugs is honor and discipline to train in a way for a long period of time. I looked at that TTM's web site and though he cites the forms not where he learned them. Is this from fear of recourse from SD or GMT ??? I dont know. I have agreed with TTM on occasion and I was making a general statement. In Texas there is a guy offering JuJitsu nothing wrong with the style but to me that is a sell out much like Ninjitsu in the 80 's. Nothing wrong with covering the over head and making a little to progress yourself as a MA but when people charge 90-150 per month and then enforce contracts legally that to me sucks. I did not direct my statement at TTM individually but to all who sell out for the almighty dollar. If I stole your car and sold it and kept the money I would be a thief, If I learn your art and teach it with out acknowledging you or giving a small% then I am stealing from you . That is how I feel . I long for the old days when people trained with each other and taught for the love of the art no judging just training. That to me is how you learn. KC

Woof

09-08-2007, 07:38 AM

like what??:D:cool:

you are right if I was trying to make money I would be telling everyone with whom I have studied ,among other things.:p I have a great deal of respect for GM Sin and for the Art . I have lost a great deal of respect for a few people though.

By the way I teach for FREE

You frequently do tell with whom you have studied. You name drop both GM Sin The and the Soards all the f'ing time.

Since you train from dusk till dawn, teach for FREE and now claim an aversion to all things monetary, have you considered entering the Shaolin Ninjitsu Commune?

Yao Sing

09-08-2007, 07:58 AM

Quote:
Quote from the same thread --- SevenStar
lineage, schmineage. choi's skill level far outweighs any real or fake lineage claims. Why do people get so wrapped up in lineage?

We have been asking the same question for over 400 pages -- good luck getting an answer that makes any sense.

I thought it was the SD guys that were hung up on lineage, like insisting it's the 'real' Shaolin and everyone else isn't.

Other than that the other quotes look like independant (non-students) assessments of a master's skill by qualified sources.

Where is that paralleled with SD?

The charges so far are that only committed SD students with unknown experience have attested to Sin The's skill. No outside verification, video or historical evidence has turned up yet.

I imagine SD will continue to catch flak until some more substantial proof of the lineage claim or skill level is presented.

Seriously, what would you think of a school with hundreds of students, who knows how many instructor level practitioners, and decades in business that can't produce one video clip representative of the skill (to date all known video has been claimed as being not the true skill level, no offense JP) or placing in a non-SD only event?

Until then we'll just have to believe that the available video IS representative of the skill level of the more 'advanced' SD practitioners and it doesn't get much better than what we see.

Just putting things in perspective.

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 08:08 AM

Your warped perspective, a tourney is not an indicator of skill level KC

Citong Shifu

09-08-2007, 08:31 AM

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 08:37 AM

I long for the old days when people trained with each other and taught for the love of the art no judging just training. That to me is how you learn. KC

But there's always going to be contracts and monthly charges so long as schools persist.

The coolest setup was with my first Longfist teacher. Low fees, since he taught out of a TKD/Karate school. But you got very little schooltime (1 hr. a week), LOL. It was nearly impossible to get anywhere, so I picked a new Longfist teacher.

I like the contracts, in a way. It helps a club keep going, gets you lots of floor time, and everything else.

Even my capoeira school has contracts. Everyone's got 'em, if the teacher is a full-time teacher.

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 08:52 AM

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 08:54 AM

What I would like to hear about is SD's Fukien Shaolin Louhan sets (1 through 5 and various two man sets / weapons), Shaolin Quan sets ( Sh. 12, 24, 36, & 72 / two man sets and weapons) & Fukien Shaolin Di Shu / Ditang (1 through 4, two man sets, & weapons). After all, these 3 styles were created at Shaolin and were the core training styles at Fukien Temple. SD has many forms in its style, but I haven't seen the true shaolin forms noted from Fukien Temple. However, through some research on various articles I have found alot of forms (like the bird sets, etc) that are more common to some of the Okinawan karate styles. Many shaolin sets I've seen/read from SD websites were non-shaolin, but styles of various long fist systems, etc. The list goes on. I really dont care one way or another. I just find SD interesting.... If you guys have the three Fukien core styles, I would be greatly interested in hearing about them and the names of sets practiced...

Thanks.

They're not done in the same way. I've watched some Shaolin Lohan sets, and done some Longfist, myself. When you watch some Lohan (although, the SD Lohan sets are really Tan Tui--[there's confusion as to the origin, depending on the source you tax for SD references]--and they look like someone took various sequences of tan tui, chopped them into small bits, and taught them as fighting training sequences in a series of small movements. They're almost exact--I can see them clearly in Tan Tui.) As for the Longfist and Shaolin Quan; you won't find those anywhere in SD in a format you'd recognize, unless they teach them above the 5th degree level. I've done some Shaolin Quan, and it's not like SD at all in terms of forms.

The Tan Tui, however, is very much the same. The sweeps, and combinations where you pull + punch (pull with left hand, which chambers, and straight or reverse punch with right), and kick (in SD, called a hit-kick, or a twist-hit-and-kick combo) are very prevalent. Also, the transitions are pretty much exact.

They're taught in short sequences (called short forms) in order to stress how to move from one stance to the next, and how to apply the principles in combat (one hand is always chambering while the other one is striking, and it heightens your awareness of what your weapons are based on your body posture). Some people do them more like karate; others more like Tan Tui. However, SD does not teach them as a single form....at least not anymore. They're considered the core of the system, and really do set one up for just about everything one's going to learn in the system, more or less.

Whenever I watch a chop-sockey flick and I see a group of guys in a courtyard arranged in rows with a teacher shouting out orders or move names, and the guys do a short sequence of movements (unlike the usual CMA forms)---that always reminds me of our short forms.

If I had the editing skills and a camera, I'd film myself doing the short forms, then place them side-by-side with small clips of a tan tui performance to show where they occur. (also, Ancestor's Fist has many of the same movements). I've seen them a bunch of times, but you'll just have to take my word for it, b/c I don't have the time or money to do so.

Citong Shifu

09-08-2007, 08:58 AM

But there's always going to be contracts and monthly charges so long as schools persist.

The coolest setup was with my first Longfist teacher. Low fees, since he taught out of a TKD/Karate school. But you got very little schooltime (1 hr. a week), LOL. It was nearly impossible to get anywhere, so I picked a new Longfist teacher.

I like the contracts, in a way. It helps a club keep going, gets you lots of floor time, and everything else.

Even my capoeira school has contracts. Everyone's got 'em, if the teacher is a full-time teacher.

It's hard for any full-time school to exist without contracts and billing services. The goal is to have full-time time training and that takes money. I see where it may come across as a sale out, but unless your going to do this out of your backyard, etc, it just wont happen. I couldnt keep my doors open full-time without business contracts and billing, its just that simple. Business is business and the martial arts is martial arts! Full-time schools need to focus on both.

Citong Shifu

09-08-2007, 09:05 AM

They're not done in the same way. I've watched some Shaolin Lohan sets, and done some Longfist, myself. When you watch some Lohan (although, the SD Lohan sets are really Tan Tui--[there's confusion as to the origin, depending on the source you tax for SD references]--and they look like someone took various sequences of tan tui, chopped them into small bits, and taught them as fighting training sequences in a series of small movements. They're almost exact--I can see them clearly in Tan Tui.) As for the Longfist and Shaolin Quan; you won't find those anywhere in SD in a format you'd recognize, unless they teach them above the 5th degree level. I've done some Shaolin Quan, and it's not like SD at all in terms of forms.

The Tan Tui, however, is very much the same. The sweeps, and combinations where you pull + punch (pull with left hand, which chambers, and straight or reverse punch with right), and kick (in SD, called a hit-kick, or a twist-hit-and-kick combo) are very prevalent. Also, the transitions are pretty much exact.

They're taught in short sequences (called short forms) in order to stress how to move from one stance to the next, and how to apply the principles in combat (one hand is always chambering while the other one is striking, and it heightens your awareness of what your weapons are based on your body posture). Some people do them more like karate; others more like Tan Tui. However, SD does not teach them as a single form....at least not anymore. They're considered the core of the system, and really do set one up for just about everything one's going to learn in the system, more or less.

Whenever I watch a chop-sockey flick and I see a group of guys in a courtyard arranged in rows with a teacher shouting out orders or move names, and the guys do a short sequence of movements (unlike the usual CMA forms)---that always reminds me of our short forms.

If I had the editing skills and a camera, I'd film myself doing the short forms, then place them side-by-side with small clips of a tan tui performance to show where they occur. (also, Ancestor's Fist has many of the same movements). I've seen them a bunch of times, but you'll just have to take my word for it, b/c I don't have the time or money to do so.

Thanks SW.

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 09:06 AM

My 1st teacher taught us 2-3 x per week 3 hours then required us to train on our own as well. He loved the arts and taught to enjoy it. Contracts are for those who dont have the heart to continue w/o a lrge $$$ commitment to keep going if that is what you need to keep training more power to you. KC

Yeah, but I'll gladly pay a contract to have open access to a school w/ instruction for up to a possible total of 17+ hours during the week (and that's if I'm only doing "external" work). When I attend, I can stay for the class for my rank, and every rank below me. Generally, the days I go, I get 3-4 hrs. of classtime, 3 hours of instruction. I try to go at least 3 days a week. That's 12 hours where I have instruction, or partners to work with, and killer workouts. And the rest of the week is solo time. I hear people complain that they don't feel they get the depth they'd like, but it's generally b/c once they move up a rank, they cease going to lower belt classes, and so their material never develops. I know some of you SD guys have seen it, too. Some BB's Tai Peng Sin Kune that's about as good as the first month they learned it...which never progressed....or more likely Lohan Chien. And then they hit brown belt, and they don't practice lower belt material. And then they hit black belt, and since they're never going to be tested again on that stuff unless they hit very high ranks, they let it all go down the drain.

It's always a matter of who works hard at what they have. It has nothing to do with contracts, lack of teacher enthusiasm, etc.

But since I have the contract, I can take advantage of it, get the best for my money and time, and practice until I keel over from exhaustion.

That's the benefit of having a contract; and to be honest, I swear that's the reason they're in place in an idealistic sense (of course they have the monetary obligation as well.). If there are people willing to take them up on all they can give, you get dedicated students (not necessarily to the school, per say, so much as to the hard work it encourages). I used to abuse gyms in the same way...LOL.

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 09:21 AM

I hear people complain that they don't feel they get the depth they'd like, but it's generally b/c once they move up a rank, they cease going to lower belt classes, and so their material never develops. I know some of you SD guys have seen it, too. Some BB's Tai Peng Sin Kune that's about as good as the first month they learned it...which never progressed....or more likely Lohan Chien. And then they hit brown belt, and they don't practice lower belt material. And then they hit black belt, and since they're never going to be tested again on that stuff unless they hit very high ranks, they let it all go down the drain..

But then, I've heard this grousing and seen this take place in every school I've visited. Wing Chun is essentially the easiest in form. It's so simple; it's the fighting principles and actions that are difficult. Even so, I've seen students of Wing Chun schools butcher Wing Chun forms. IF you can butcher a Wing Chun form.....then hell......

The thing is: We're not Chinese. We have jobs. We have lives. We have school. We're not full-time kung-fu students, and even then, kung-fu is just recreation. So it's not like everyone's going to look like a wushu champion from a Chinese National forms tourney. They'll look about as well as they do with what level of commitment the students have to what they're learning. Some don't have it. It's not a bad thing. They're still getting something out of it.

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 09:24 AM

Thanks SW.

I forgot to address Ditang. From what I know, there isn't any Ditang, per say. The black tigers have quite a few leaping falls (the kind that make you cringe when you see them). Some of the cranes have the ground motions. In Hua Fist, you get those leaping outstretched falls. And then in drunken, there's the same stuff. So you get the falls and everything variously, but not in Ditang format. And then they teach the usual breakfalls, aerials, cartwheels, and rolls variously, depending on your rank.

Leto

09-08-2007, 09:50 AM

What I would like to hear about is SD's Fukien Shaolin Louhan sets (1 through 5 and various two man sets / weapons), Shaolin Quan sets ( Sh. 12, 24, 36, & 72 / two man sets and weapons) & Fukien Shaolin Di Shu / Ditang (1 through 4, two man sets, & weapons). After all, these 3 styles were created at Shaolin and were the core training styles at Fukien Temple. SD has many forms in its style, but I haven't seen the true shaolin forms noted from Fukien Temple. However, through some research on various articles I have found alot of forms (like the bird sets, etc) that are more common to some of the Okinawan karate styles. Many shaolin sets I've seen/read from SD websites were non-shaolin, but styles of various long fist systems, etc. The list goes on. I really dont care one way or another. I just find SD interesting.... If you guys have the three Fukien core styles, I would be greatly interested in hearing about them and the names of sets practiced...

Thanks.

SD/CSC doesn't have the sets you're asking about, at least not in the current form you know them in. There may be material that is similar, though.
Bird sets are not common to any Okinawan karate style, especially not the ones found in SD. SD bird forms are like somewhere between a northern and southern shaolin style, from what I can determine. They have a lot of elements (which may not be obvious depending on how they are taught/performed), that you might see in the southern long styles like Hung Ga and CLF, and a few movements that are northern shaolin-ish (the hooking beak movements behind the back, and wide spread arms/crouching...not a very good description).
There is actually a lot of ditang/ground work in the forms, though instead of being taught all in a few sets, it is spread through many different forms in little bits. The white crane set taught at brown belt actually has ground work (in 2 out of the 3forms)...Lian wu zhang is also taught at brown level, which is a basic form of Shandong ditang quan according to Sal (though SD may not perform it the same or "correctly" according to northern methods). The Shandong black tiger set (1-4), has ground work in 2 of the four forms. Lots of other forms have ground work as well...the drunken forms, hua quan, and the tang lang form that is taught, in addition to others that aren't a part of the normal curriculum.

I'm not sure I agree that what we call Luohan is actually tan tui, though it does have similarities, I can see why some teachers decided to call it that. From what I udnerstand, GM The never called it Tan Tui. It is more similar to northern shaolin than to the southern luohan forms, I think.
I do not believe the curriculum of SD/CSC represents the curriculum of any historical temple. (Honestly, I'm not sure any modern style does...but some might be closer than others) The people claiming that as a fact on behalf of SD or CSC are misinformed and/or are using it as a device to attract students. I would call it a mixed style with influences from various teachers from different regions of China and Indonesia. There's some things drawn from Shantung for sure, ditang and black tiger, hua quan and probably the luohan patterns/tan tui...some things from southern styles, like san he quan and maybe the birds and cranes, the five animals and a lot of the weapons. Don't know if the drunken set is considered northern or southern, or neither.

Anyways...SD/CSC doesn't have the same sets as modern shaolin, either northern or southern. Many of its forms may be related, but several generations removed.

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 10:06 AM

I do not believe the curriculum of SD/CSC represents the curriculum of any historical temple. (Honestly, I'm not sure any modern style does...but some might be closer than others) The people claiming that as a fact on behalf of SD or CSC are misinformed and/or are using it as a device to attract students. I would call it a mixed style with influences from various teachers from different regions of China and Indonesia.

I find it interesting, that if most accounts are true, the original school was called Central Shaolin. Depending on the connotation, "central" could modify Shaolin in a couple of different ways.

tattooedmonk

09-08-2007, 10:54 AM

You frequently do tell with whom you have studied. You name drop both GM Sin The and the Soards all the f'ing time.

Since you train from dusk till dawn, teach for FREE and now claim an aversion to all things monetary, have you considered entering the Shaolin Ninjitsu Commune?I studied with DS, SS as well as GMS among others. This is a fact . I am not name dropping . It used to be that you did not go around using you masters name to gain fame recognition or fortune . It was a privilege to learn about your arts history and from whom it came from.

Now it is information that is sold to make money and satisfy the ego.

I believe that to many people focus on this and do not spend enough time training . The art speaks for it's self.

This is about all you will get for the last comment.......:rolleyes:

tattooedmonk

09-08-2007, 10:56 AM

It sounds like what you got goin on is the way it used to be in the oldin days, back in indonesia. Or at least the way it was explained to me. I like to idea of people getting together and working on stuff and making it work.Thanx. I have an old school philosophy and mindset about practicing and teaching the art.

MasterKiller

09-08-2007, 11:07 AM

If I learn your art and teach it with out acknowledging you or giving a small% then I am stealing from you . That is how I feel .

Well, good luck with that. If I pay to college and then graduate and get a job, I'm not required to send any money to my old professors, am I? How about build an alter to them in my bedroom?

Once you learn the material, it's yours.

If you are the kind of teacher that is worried about your students not 'honoring' you after they leave your school, then you should be more discriminating to whom you teach.

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 11:09 AM

Well, good luck with that. If I pay to college and then graduate and get a job, I'm not required to send any money to my old professors, am I? How about build an alter to them in my bedroom?

Once you learn the material, it's yours.
.

Word........

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 11:24 AM

So you are not part of an Alumni or school group from college. You dont have a bumper sticker that says my child and money go to so and so. You dont have your certificates from your teachers showing rank ?? or pics of your teachers up in the school like Funikoshi GMS etc. Are You are trying to be another Bruce Lee but even he said where and who he was taught by. I guess that is why so many want to be's are teaching their own style. What do you call your school ?? Way of the stolen fist ??? KC

MasterKiller

09-08-2007, 11:47 AM

So you are not part of an Alumni or school group from college. No.

You dont have a bumper sticker that says my child and money go to so and so. No.

You dont have your certificates from your teachers showing rank ??or pics of your teachers up in the school like Funikoshi GMS etc. I have no pictures hanging in my school. I have no rank certificates displayed in my school. I have no lineage chart in my school. All of that stuff is in my garage, where I train at home.

But if my students ask, I freely tell them where I learned what I teach, even if I picked something up off Youtube.

What do you call your school ?? Way of the stolen fist ??? KC How can it be stolen when I paid for the lessons? If you are selling lessons, the person who buys the material owns it.

I run an open school. I bring in wrestlers, judoka, boxers, submission wrestlers...anyone I can get to come in and help teach. At any given time, I might have 3 teachers there, all from different disciplines and all helping me train my students.

I'm too busy improving the skill level of my students to worry if they will honor me with an altar or not.

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 12:01 PM

That is such a warped perspective , if you borrow a car is it yours can you sell it ? Sure but that is stealing. You dont own the art or style it is not yours you were accepted as a student in the hope that you would be a student until you learned it "all". But you get a small tid bit and go and try to teach what you know or think you know. Werent you wanting the paper work to the Huas and 5 Animal Fist ??? Why dont you write your own if it is yours. You cant deny the Origins of the things you know. You have basically done what many others have done tried to go out and start your own style before Mastering the one you were learning. Jack of all master of none. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Would you go to Medical school for a year and then attempt a Heart Transplant ??? Hey you went to Med school right ?? So you must be a Doctor. KC

Leto

09-08-2007, 12:04 PM

In the old days, if someone didn't want to tell where they learned something from (because they didn't have permission, or they had a falling out with their teacher, or they invented it), maybe they'd say "a wandering monk showed me", or "I visited a hermit on a mountain."
We can't really use those excuses anymore. The people who try it end up looking like complete scam artists.
Things change, grow, evolve. Some people embrace that and encourage it, and others try to stop it and keep things static. There doesn't need to be any disrespect involved...but sometimes it's unavoidable, when your teacher is of the latter school of thought and you are of the former. Your teacher demands that you only teach other people what he taught you, unaltered in any way. You have grown as an artist (as we all do through years of practice), and have new ideas and do things differently, in addition we learn from various sources whether we want to or not. Your choices are: wait until your teacher passes on before doing what you want, or "disrespect" him and go in your own direction (without permission and maybe not being allowed to even mention officially that you were his student).
Another factor today is business and legal stuff like copywrites. In the case of some chains of schools, you can't legally call your school by the same name as them without permission, being a part of the organization. You might not even legally be allowed to claim them as your teachers unless you are in the group and following all their rules. So do you give up your martial arts pracitce? Acquiesce and just follow all their rules, despite your misgivings? Or teach what you want and how you want, just call it something else and accept a level of "shadiness" in the department of lineage?
Though I prefer honesty in all situations, I don't hold it against anyone who teaches without the permission of their teacher, or makes changes to curriculum. The martial arts skill will speak for itself. Names on certificates and historical ties don't automatically confer skill or "worthiness". I won't judge anyone without practicing with them or at least seeing how they practice. That's the only way to know how sincere they are, and how skilled they are.

MasterKiller

09-08-2007, 12:10 PM

That is such a warped perspective , if you borrow a car is it yours can you sell it ? Sure but that is stealing. If your PAY for lessons, you are BUYING knowledge. Last time I checked, you can legally sell something you legally bought.

You dont own the art or style it is not yours you were accepted as a student in the hope that you would be a student until you learned it "all". But you get a small tid bit and go and try to teach what you know or think you know. Werent you wanting the paper work to the Huas and 5 Animal Fist ??? Why dont you write your own if it is yours. You cant deny the Origins of the things you know. You have basically done what many others have done tried to go out and start your own style before Mastering the one you were learning. Jack of all master of none. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Would you go to Medical school for a year and then attempt a Heart Transplant ??? Hey you went to Med school right ?? So you must be a Doctor. KC

You must have me confused with someone else. I have my whole system. I was promoted to full instructor before I left my school. I know my material as well as you know yours.

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 12:23 PM

That last statement is questionable but not worth debating. You are not in the SD system you have severed ties as it were. So you learned some thing worth teaching but to teach w/o permission is wrong and shows the lack of respect permeating the M/A today Many students in the past me included went to study other systems but I had permission from my previous teacher. This why some systems are so watered down and lacking. You seem to be saying because you were a full teacher that you know enough to start your own style and GMT cant teach you anymore??? KC BTW what rank did you get in SCS SD

Yao Sing

09-08-2007, 12:26 PM

Your warped perspective, a tourney is not an indicator of skill level KC

Only in the world of SD. So you're saying the guys that win competitions do so by good looks or paying off the judges?

Or do they win because they're good (read skilled)?

But funny that the rest of the post is shrugged off and only the tournament comment gets a response, as if that was the heart of the comment.

Actually I was extending it to AT LEAST a tournament win over your peers in other styles. Pretty much the bottom of the credibility barrel.

Your response pretty much validates my assertion. Almost 500 pages later the answer to the question turns out to be 'no'.

Yao Sing

09-08-2007, 12:31 PM

BTW, I'm not anti-SD. I really don't care that much but when you look at what's presented it becomes fairly obvious.

tattooedmonk

09-08-2007, 12:32 PM

the name the name of my school is in honor of my Master

tattooedmonk

09-08-2007, 12:34 PM

but at this slow rate it might take a while.

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 12:34 PM

So if you grade a style by how well you fight then you must be a good fighter if you win tournaments. KC Tournament are mostly luck not skill. Tag your it.

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 12:36 PM

If your PAY for lessons, you are BUYING knowledge. Last time I checked, you can legally sell something you legally bought.
.

This isn't true. I thought it was, but it's not. I bought my wife from a Russian smuggler, and tried to rent her out to my buddy. I got arrested for pimping.

P-O P-I M-P OLOGY.....

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 12:50 PM

" imagine SD will continue to catch flak until some more substantial proof of the lineage claim or skill level is presented.

Seriously, what would you think of a school with hundreds of students, who knows how many instructor level practitioners, and decades in business that can't produce one video clip representative of the skill (to date all known video has been claimed as being not the true skill level, no offense JP) or placing in a non-SD only event?
Until then we'll just have to believe that the available video IS representative of the skill level of the more 'advanced' SD practitioners and it doesn't get much better than what we see."

The lack of a clip means nothing The tournament in Lexington is next week come and watch you will see good and bad. also the quality of the form means nothing the practioner could have had a bad day. KC

MasterKiller

09-08-2007, 01:04 PM

Yao Sing

09-08-2007, 01:09 PM

You seem to be missing the point. So all those bad videos of SD are because they had a bad day? And they can't post a good video because nobody has a camera when they're having a good day?

And competitions are not good for determining skill level so SD doesn't bother to compete with other styles but they feel it's worthwhile to compete against themselves? Do you think nobody outside of SD is a skillful enough opponent?

I doubt I'll be getting out to the tourney in Lexington because, well, I just don't care enough to burn the money to fly there. How about you video tape a few of the better performances, both fighting and forms. Maybe you'll get lucky and tape the Grand Champion so we can see SD at it's best.

Or maybe a bit of the Masters demo. Wouldn't that be top of the line SD?

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 01:12 PM

Sorry MK I was adressing TTM about SD KC

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 01:14 PM

Yao Sing

09-08-2007, 01:30 PM

I have tapes of Grand Champions and Master demos but do not have permission to post so I wont. But I will swear I have many in my possession of GMT EML EMM and others that would put what I have seen from the posted SD and others to shame. KC

And there lies the problem. How do you convince outsiders when you can't show the proof?

But then are we expected to just take your word for it? From what I've seen the only ones saying they're really good are SD insiders. Nobody outside of SD is claiming great skill from any of the SD masters.

So look at it from our viewpoint and what do you see?

No physical evidence of the lineage claimed.
No video evidence of high skill level by top SD practitioners.
No corroborating evidence of either from an outside source.
No evidence of intimate knowledge of the claimed styles.

Shaolin people say it isn't Shaolin but we are to believe they are all wrong and SD is the true Shaolin but unfortunately there's not a shred of evidence.

Is Sin The accepted by other CMA masters? They seem to to stick together into a few circles of friends. Which masters are willing to vouch for his skills? Just curious.

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 01:40 PM

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 01:43 PM

The jealousy that exists in CMA from Master to Master is well known I do know there are some who consider GMT the real deal BQL can prob give the names I cant. KC

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 02:20 PM

Ummm.... I'm not an SD student. I have never studied SD/CSC. Put the crack down. You seem to be confusing me with TTM.

Yeah....I read that earlier and had a big WTF? moment.

Shaolin Wookie

09-08-2007, 02:24 PM

I have tapes of Grand Champions and Master demos but do not have permission to post so I wont. But I will swear I have many in my possession of GMT EML EMM and others that would put what I have seen from the posted SD and others to shame. KC

Just out of curiosity, why not? I understand the permission thing, but why would they deny? I've seen vids of some of the best here in ATL on Sr. Master Gary's Youtube channel.....why would any of those guys up there care? I caught a glimpse of GM The in action.....it was impressive enough. Why would he care?

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 02:34 PM

Do You Have Pics Of Your Girl Friend Nude ??? Even If She Looked Like Halle Berry You Prob Wouldnt Post Them Because Of Reprocussions , Lorena Bobbit Comes To Mind. Sorry For The Caps Kc

Mas Judt

09-08-2007, 02:55 PM

I really doubt Sin The' has anything to teach Master Killer that would matter to him one bit.

Yao Sing

09-08-2007, 02:56 PM

If you saw what I had even if it was "good" you and others would still find fault etc etc. Also the opinion of a few armchair MA who want to be a judge but are not willing to give the open mind needed to be one is of no concern, this is like watching boxing we can always say I would have done this but until you are being punched in the face you have no Idea what you would do. I could post me and the form could be perfect and someone would say well it should have been this or the flavor was wrong . Think what you want it doesnt matter. KC

You're operating on an awful lot of assumptions.

First off, I haven't judged anyone's skill level SD or other. Most likely I would not judge the skill leel of whatever video you showed. I do take into consideration the comments by others that sound knowledgeable enough to speak up.

So basically you're afraid the opinions won't be favorable. Do you think anyone is so good they're beyond fault? Oh right, Sin The is the epitome of perfection. We're just not worthy enough to witness it.

And no, it's not like watching boxing and saying 'I would have done this or that'. It's like watching someone and estimating their skill based on a limited video.

I'm going to call you on the perfect form you're claiming you can post. If others with verifiable background can find fault in it then I guess it isn't perfect now is it?

But please go ahead and post that perfect form unless you fear criticism that much. JP managed to survive the onslaught and actually got props for being more than just talk. In fact I believe there were some good, positive comments.

brucereiter

09-08-2007, 03:03 PM

Seriously, what would you think of a school with hundreds of students, who knows how many instructor level practitioners, and decades in business that can't produce one video clip representative of the skill (to date all known video has been claimed as being not the true skill level, no offense JP) or placing in a non-SD only event?

Until then we'll just have to believe that the available video IS representative of the skill level of the more 'advanced' SD practitioners and it doesn't get much better than what we see.

Just putting things in perspective.

hi yao sing,

i have never competed in any martial arts "event" and likely never will as i have no interest in that aspect of martial arts.

you say the available video is representative of the skill level of the more advanced sd practitioners and it does not get much better than that i dont know if you are looking at everything that is available ...

here are several examples of shaolin do material that i have posted here many times. i make no claims of mastery but i know i have some insight into ima. none of my clips represent anything extraordinary but i think there is ima skill demonstrated and these are skills i learned in the art of shaolin do.

yang tai chi chuan "64" form
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ

chen xin jia 83
http://youtube.com/watch?v=15ZKEig-Osw

hsingi "5 roads" or 5 elements beng chuan
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8x6er4aobuc

classical pakua chang aka jiang rong qiao "original" pakua chang
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tKOjfBuc5TA

some push hands practice
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9L9atX7yAFs
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lJgfVy5Cqe0

striking drills
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G_jajtX-2po

here is my youtube channel. there are several clips of some of the training i do.
http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

here is a clip from my teacher about his tai chi chuan dvd's ...
http://youtube.com/user/srmastergarygrooms

you can also see a few more clips on his youtube channel of some external stuff.

i do not know your background or skill level ... but you seem to make blanket statements about our system. i have been to ima schools al over the world and have found my understanding and skill level to be as good as most and better than some but at least on track.

look around on youtube and you will find thousands of videos that show all types of understanding, expression and skill level from the finest and most well known groups.
i think you and others are being unfair with many of your statements regarding shaolin do.

any of the naysayers that would like to post videos of them doing their martial arts would be fantastic to see. i think it might help people in shaolin do know where you are coming from with your critiques of shaolin do skill level, material and performances

best,

bruce

bodhi warrior

09-08-2007, 03:08 PM

I was on myspace today and did a search for shaolindo and found some nice vids. I don't know how to post a link here. Maybe one of you other guys can.
The ground dragon guy looks pretty good.

brucereiter

09-08-2007, 03:23 PM

I hear people complain that they don't feel they get the depth they'd like, but it's generally b/c once they move up a rank, they cease going to lower belt classes, and so their material never develops.

wookie,

that is good that you have made this observation. you cant imagine how many times i invite people to come back to level one yang tai chi chuan class but they never show up again since they have done their 6 months to learn the form and a few drills and applications and think they know tai chi chuan. always go back to the basics.

best,

bruce

kwaichang

09-08-2007, 03:27 PM

The Ground Dragon is pretty good that guy is hyper KC

brucereiter

09-08-2007, 03:34 PM

BTW, I'm not anti-SD. I really don't care that much but when you look at what's presented it becomes fairly obvious.

what becomes obvious?

DPL

09-08-2007, 03:37 PM

I was on myspace today and did a search for shaolindo and found some nice vids. I don't know how to post a link here. Maybe one of you other guys can.
The ground dragon guy looks pretty good.

Is this the one you're talking about? (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=6004254)

Yao Sing

09-08-2007, 03:50 PM

hi yao sing,

i have never competed in any martial arts "event" and likely never will as i have no interest in that aspect of martial arts.

Same here, never really go into that stuff.

you say the available video is representative of the skill level of the more advanced sd practitioners and it does not get much better than that i dont know if you are looking at everything that is available ...

Been following this thread from the beginning and I've seen most of what's already been posted. My comments were a summary of the opinions expressed in this longwinded thread. I have yet to make any judgments on skill level myself.

Every time a video is posted others (usually practitioners of the same style) point out what they see as lacking only to have SD folks proclaim the video as substandard and not representative of SD. This includes video of SD masters as well as GM The himself.

Are your videos a fair representation of high level SD skill? If not can you post any that are?

i do not know your background or skill level ... but you seem to make blanket statements about our system.

As I said, based on what's posted here. I'm telling you what it looks like from the non-SD perspective since hardly anyone in SD has an objective eye and seem to have a private inside view that they can't share with the rest of the world (read - extremely biased).

i think you and others are being unfair with many of your statements regarding shaolin do.

Of course you do but nobody in SD is stepping up to change the opinions of others. They all seem to be too afraid of criticism. Only you and JP have posted video but neither are master level. I believe what everyone wants to see id the equivilant of masters in some of the styles SD claims to teach.

Maybe a few of the internal guys can comment on the quality of your clips. Do you teach?

a
ny of the naysayers that would like to post videos of them doing their martial arts would be fantastic to see. i think it might help people in shaolin do know where you are coming from with your critiques of shaolin do skill level, material and performances

best,

bruce

There's also a lack of video by the non-SD folks here although they do point to a large amount of video available of masters from styles that SD claims to teach. Now if SD could post something equivalent then maybe the naasayers will change their tune.

Yao Sing

09-08-2007, 03:52 PM

what becomes obvious?

Ha ha, I rest my case. Bet that goes right over your head.

MasterKiller

09-08-2007, 04:09 PM

Holy Shiznit. I found themeecer:

http://www.myspace.com/Meece

bodhi warrior

09-08-2007, 04:09 PM

Is this the one you're talking about? (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=6004254)

Yea that's the one. there were a couple others as well.

Yao Sing

09-08-2007, 04:14 PM

Holy Shiznit. I found themeecer:

http://www.myspace.com/Meece

So that's where he's been hiding! Profile is set to private so we can't see any top secret SD video there.

MasterKiller

09-08-2007, 04:21 PM

So that's where he's been hiding! Profile is set to private so we can't see any top secret SD video there.

Yeah, but check out the hotties in his friends list. Wowza.

Yao Sing

09-08-2007, 04:22 PM

Is this the one you're talking about? (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=6004254)

Looks like a show form to me. What style is that? Doesn't look like any Dragon I've seen.

So do the SD folks agree that's a good quality instructor level performance?

brucereiter

09-08-2007, 04:30 PM

Been following this thread from the beginning and I've seen most of what's already been posted. My comments were a summary of the opinions expressed in this longwinded thread. I have yet to make any judgments on skill level myself.

i have heard many "crazy" opinions posted from "both sides"

Every time a video is posted others (usually practitioners of the same style) point out what they see as lacking only to have SD folks proclaim the video as substandard and not representative of SD. This includes video of SD masters as well as GM The himself.

some people may be defensive or insecure ... that is a problem for them ...

Are your videos a fair representation of high level SD skill? If not can you post any that are?

i think it would be awkward to say my skill level is high ... i will say i am "good " lol ...
i posted a link to my teacher doing yang tai chi chuan i do think it is "high level"
http://youtube.com/user/srmastergarygrooms

i have heard very good comments about his tai chi chuan and lots of negative comments about his pakua chang on these forums though.

one thing my teacher really has to offer is teaching you how to learn and to discover things for your self.

As I said, based on what's posted here. I'm telling you what it looks like from the non-SD perspective since hardly anyone in SD has an objective eye and seem to have a private inside view that they can't share with the rest of the world (read - extremely biased).

i think of myself as having an "objective eye".

Of course you do but nobody in SD is stepping up to change the opinions of others. They all seem to be too afraid of criticism. Only you and JP have posted video but neither are master level. I believe what everyone wants to see id the equivilant of masters in some of the styles SD claims to teach.
my teacher doing yang tai chi chuan ...
http://youtube.com/user/srmastergarygrooms

Maybe a few of the internal guys can comment on the quality of your clips.

i would like to hear objective critique ...

Do you teach?

in march 2006 i was given a teaching certificate from my teacher.
aug 8 1997 i took my first class from sr master gary grooms who was a new 6th degree master at the time. i started assisting teaching several about 5-6 years into my practice.

There's also a lack of video by the non-SD folks here although they do point to a large amount of video available of masters from styles that SD claims to teach. Now if SD could post something equivalent then maybe the naasayers will change their tune.

again here is my teacher ...
http://youtube.com/user/srmastergarygrooms

================================================
i say the below comments tongue in cheek ... so try to find the humor.
i think if one is going to say negative things in public about people they dont know and have not met they should:
post there real name

post there actual credentials with outside verification

post there teachers name and concrete indisputable proof of their teachers credentials and full history with outside verification in addition to all of the teachers in their line and outside verification. lol ...

post video of them doing their thing

post video of their teacher doing there thing.

lol see the humor ...

best,

bruce

brucereiter

09-08-2007, 04:34 PM

Ha ha, I rest my case. Bet that goes right over your head.

lol .... .... ....

BlueTravesty

09-08-2007, 04:38 PM

So if you grade a style by how well you fight then you must be a good fighter if you win tournaments. KC Tournament are mostly luck not skill. Tag your it.

I would have to agree with that- the point sparring at most tournaments is good for lower ranked students (which is pretty much what I am) to test attributes like closing the gap, accuracy, and persistance (particularly continuous sparring) but that's about it. A guy can be a nightmare to fight, but a lousy point fighter.

The forms half of tournaments though, are a whole other matter, since forms skill and fighting skill are two separate matters- not necessarily mutually exclusive, but separate.

Judge Pen

09-08-2007, 06:21 PM

brucereiter

09-08-2007, 06:49 PM

here are a few more clips from my school ... i was not there as i was traveling at the time ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFK078nTkzc

there are a few external things below:
http://www.youtube.com/user/mr1sifu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h55byqy9NbM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwLrwRefi-c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZAk5fKrys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWfUBipuzXk

how about people sharing clips from their school or of them self ...

best

bruce

Shaolin Wookie

09-09-2007, 01:39 AM

lol .... .... ....

Well, he was aiming up, so it had a high trajectory.:D

It's funny; you've posted more videos of yourself than anyone could have wished for, and nobody here feels qualified to comment on their quality, although most of us in SD that are exposed to it can say, pretty fairly, they're excellent.

Cool stuff, man.

MasterKiller

09-09-2007, 06:15 AM

So is that Ground Dragon form an excellent example of higher-level Shaolin-Do?

Chain Whip

09-09-2007, 07:27 AM

It seems pointless to post any videos of anything from SD. No matter how it is done as long as it is identified as SD it will get crucified. Granted, some of the stuff (especially the things from Denver) has been poor. However, many pages ago I posted very positive comments from Empty Flower from people who had seen SM Grooms’ Tai Chi video trailer. As I said then, the viewers only saw a skilled guy in a frog button outfit that they did not realize was SD.

The response here was to ignore it. The same exact video with SM Grooms in a karate gi clearly identified as SD would get hammered on this forum.

Bruce travels all over and has an enormous variety of his own training posted on YouTube. He gets a variety of comments – some good – some not so good on his videos. What seems interesting is after Bruce visits with people somewhere, those people never post anything deriding his skill. I have never seen a comment on Empty Flower that was along the lines of “Bruce came – I whipped him easy” Bruce’s pushing hands/fighting skill is very good and at appears that he holds his own at a minimum wherever he goes.

There are only a few people in the ATL CSC schools that are a match for Bruce. Then there is Master Reid who pretty much manhandles Bruce and SM Grooms who is over 50 years old and 120 pounds lighter than Bruce and he still handles him. SM Grooms has also been all over the world and will “cross hands” with anyone who is willing to do so – yet no one has any “I whipped him easy” stories about him either. If someone out there met up with Bruce or SM Grooms (or EM Mullins, EM Leonard, EM Smith, EM Mingione, SM Price or SM Nance) and actually “crossed hands” with any of them and felt that they were clearly superior to any of them – I think you should tell us who you are and when your meeting occurred.

Bruce posted the following clip also (among many) but I thought I would suggest people look at this one in particular. Master Reid is a retired NFL linebacker (6 years with the Atlanta Falcons) and SM Grooms' most senior student. He has been teaching fulltime since 1993. Here is an elite athlete that has stayed with SD for about 20 years now. The waxwood spear he is using is about 2” in diameter. Obviously this clip does not demonstrate fighting skill but not many people would want to fight this guy. He is about 6’ 2” and 240 lbs - he is unquestionably very athletic. However, his speed and power are frightening to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h55byqy9NbM

This is what I posted a few weeks ago.

When Bruce first invited people at Empty Flower to look at Master Grooms' Tai Chi DVD trailer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPMbU63Y6Gg - no one seemed to know it was a SD guy. Just a skilled guy with frog buttons. Here are some of the comments:

Quote:
Quote:
Looks pretty good. What is your teacher's name? Some of the apps shown are pretty simple, but I think that is alright cause it be a video. I envy his squatting SW.

Quote:
Quote:
Those slow kicks were great!

Quote:
Quote:
Nice looking vide - good to see a video of somebody promoting the 'Quan' of Taijiquan, espcially with all the no-touch nonsense doing the rounds of the video section at the moment. Looked like good solid applications.

Quote:
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Your Sifu has excellent skill,and flexiblity...i like his simple and direct application's...
i also like his teaching style relaxed and straight foward...

Quote:
Quote:
He moves really, really good. Very smooth and he sure knows how to use his structure and balance. Yes, the apps are very direct and simple, but also very basic. (Both advanced and basic methods can of course be direct and simple.) I would like to see more of what you do in class. Maybe you could take down the camera again and show more stuff from your teacher, apps that he think is to advanced to show here?

BlueTravesty

09-09-2007, 08:05 AM

I actually thought the Ground Dragon form was pretty good, though I'm surprised he doesn't get flack from his colleagues for making it look "wushu-y." After all, I thought the reason SD forms look different is because, unlike the rest of us heathens, those forms are used for fighting and haven't been altered for performance elements. You know, unlike the rest of us with our PRC-sponsored forms (even the ones from Taiwan and Hong Kong, those are also Chi-Com Wushu stuff.) <./sarcasm>

I thought the 3-sectional staff video was good, excellent work with the weapon, though I'm not familiar enough with SD's weapons work to know whether he should have been using classical stances or not. Stylistic nuances like that can be tough to determine. At any rate, the dude knows that weapon.

The drunken spear was pretty darn good, though he probably should lean back further when whipping the spear from that angle. However, as a big guy myself, I know how difficult it is to lean back "far enough."

And fwiw, SD stuff doesn't usually get criticized JUST because it's SD- though there are a small minority of knee-jerk "OMGSDWTF!" types out there. It usually gets criticized because it is (incorrectly) lauded as the "realest" thing, and when someone (who is not a Wushu practitioner, and may have never seen Wushu in their lives) calls out an element like a lack of strong stances, choppy transitions, or lacking fa jing in a form where there's supposed to be fa jing; certain people on the SD side offer the insipid, stupid, incorrect and invalid excuse of "Well we don't do flowery Wushu stuff, the real thing looks more rough 'cuz its used for COMBAT :cool:" Which, in case I did not state my opinion on that position clearly enough, is patently and thoroughly incorrect. People tend to feel pretty sourly about that sort of thing, and unfortunately, hold it against the SD style/system as a whole- which they shouldn't. Just against the idiots who offer that pathetic excuse for a... well, excuse.

Just my two cents.

kwaichang

09-09-2007, 08:20 AM

My point exactly Chain Whip you pretty much said it all. A friend of mine trains the Titans with defense hand for the def lineman he was welter weight world kick boxing champ way back when. he teaches in Nashville now. He invited me to his testing for his students 3-4 years back and asked me to do a demo. I did so, he wanted me to teach his students some stuff I wasnt able to but he and his students were happy with the demo. Like you said even if it was good ,if I were in a Karate top there would be alot of unwarranted criticism. So the answer is whats the point until these derogatory guys see and "feel' what SD has they will continue to berate SD KC

kwaichang

09-09-2007, 08:24 AM

As far as the Ground Dragon form , I have seen that guy and know him to be pretty good. He did do a DEMO however, and it was spiced up for entertainment value , increased speed etc but technically the form was initiated with the right moves. KC

Leto

09-09-2007, 09:10 AM

I don't know ground dragon, so can't say whether he was doing it "correctly" or not...but I think, especially for performances, that some leeway is given in terms of "correctness", as long as it looks good. It was certainly an example of good acrobatics and falling skills. It's not a form that is a part of the curriculum, that everyone learns, at least not as far as I am aware of...I think it was only recently taught in a seminar by GMT. So it couldn't be called an example of something that is expected of or taught to all SD/CSC students.

The drunken spear was excellent, at least compared to other performances of the same form I've seen. (I also don't know that one either, so can't comment on nuances). That spear is huge, his demonstration definately shows some good kung fu...flexibility, strength, power.

The three section staff was also excellent. The way it was taught to me, stances were not emphasized. It wouldn't be hard to add stances later, once you're able to perform the various spins and strikes without clobbering yourself (that's the hard part, and the level of learning most people I know are at with the weapon) Also, for demonstrations they focus on the flashy fast spinning, that's what impresses people.

Of those three, the drunken spear is the only one that I know of that people actually have to test on in the system (at least in the west). Three section staff was a supplemental, optional weapon that is offered in seminar once in a while, not too many I people know spent much time on it. Ground dragon is a recent seminar form from GMT, so far only taught in the east as far as I know.

So, the drunken spear video would be a good example of a high level SD form performed well, in my opinion. I haven't seen any videos of basic, or even intermediate material performed by high level practicioners...I think that for demonstrations most people feel that the lower level stuff, which is really the core of the style, is not flashy enough to impress anyone. I disagree, but then a lot of the demos are given mainly for the other SD students, so who wants to see the master doing a boring form that everyone knows, when we can see him doing something advanced that not many people have seen?

BentMonk

09-09-2007, 09:13 AM

So is that Ground Dragon form an excellent example of higher-level Shaolin-Do?

IMO yes. The gentleman in that clip is an excellent example of SD. SDIC & JP are as well. I plan on posting vids of myself soon. I do not claim to be an excellent example of SD. I'm posting to show how the diverse curriculum in SD can be adapted help someone in my circumstances become a well rounded and capable martial artist. I have had some degree of success in tournaments outside of SD, against disabled and able bodied opponents. I hope to see a lot of you guys in Lexington next weekend. I'll be there. I'm pretty easy to spot in a crowd. :)

Shaolin Wookie

09-09-2007, 09:14 AM

The drunken spear was pretty darn good, though he probably should lean back further when whipping the spear from that angle. However, as a big guy myself, I know how difficult it is to lean back "far enough.".

If you've ever stood in front of him, you'd take one look at him and wonder: "how in the blue blazes of hell does he move like that?":D

Chain Whip

09-09-2007, 09:52 AM

I dug up this post from about a year ago as some "outside validation"

Tai Chi and Shaolin-Do

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my first time posting. I came across this thread and it took me a while to realize that I had done a seminar with one of the Shaolin-Do masters. Several months ago my teacher had Master Grooms from Atlanta do a seminar for our school on Tai Chi Fundamentals, Applications and Fighting Technique. A handful of people from Atlanta came down for the seminar.

I’ve been around for quite awhile with Master Nick Scrima’s schools and have done many seminars with Grandmaster William C.C. Chen on Tai Chi. I have also worked with Master Tony Yang and done a Xingyi seminar with Di Guoyong President of the Beijing Xingyi Research Association.

Master Grooms never really talked about Shaolin-Do – I don’t think he ever said the words. He did talk about multiple trips to China to visit the Temples and go to Chen Village and going to some big World Tai Chi event on Hainan Island a few years ago.

The only thing I recall him saying about Grandmaster Sin The’ was that he was unbelievably fast and powerful. Which I found amazing he would say that because I have never seen anyone as explosive as Master Grooms. His punching speed was better than Di Guoyong and in push hands there simply is no comparison between him and Grandmaster William C.C. Chen. Master Grooms did a little push hands with me – he told me to do whatever I wanted and go as fast as I felt like. He then turned his head away from me and carried on a conversation with other people while he effortlessly destroyed me. I may not be great , but I have been at this quite awhile and have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars with big name guys like Di Guoyong and William C.C. Chen. All those seminars did not teach me in countless hours what Master Grooms taught me in about two hours. I actually have an understanding of power delivery and speed development that makes sense.

Of course you might say he is just a freak of nature – and his hand speed is freaky. However, there were more than a couple of his students there who were similar in rank to my Shifu and they were significantly more skilled in Tai Chi fighting. There was big guy named Bruce who my Shifu said was exceptional and then there was this guy that Master Grooms said was his senior student. I think his name was Mike Reed and he supposedly played in the NFL. That is one scary dude.

To sum it up ---- this handful of people from Atlanta had better skills and understanding of Tai Chi than the group of people from my school who are essentially students of Grandmaster C.C. Chen

kwaichang

09-09-2007, 11:15 AM

Kind of sums it up doesnt it. Cant wait to hear how "they" will try to shoot this one down KC

BlueTravesty

09-09-2007, 11:19 AM

If you've ever stood in front of him, you'd take one look at him and wonder: "how in the blue blazes of hell does he move like that?":D

The guy is faster than he has a right to be, make no mistake about it :eek: with lots of strength and power... plus I know how hard it is to whip a 2" thick spear around.

My comment about leaning back was made in the "armchair quarterback/ back-seat driver" mode in which I tend to watch videos. I will re-iterate though that I know how that goes. When we did reverse spinal rotations, sifu would always bark "LOWER!" at me. It felt for all the world like I was parallel to the ground, but when I looked at a videotape, I was barely more than 45 degrees back. FWIW the guy was still further back than I've ever been, so kudos.

brucereiter

09-09-2007, 01:55 PM

Well, he was aiming up, so it had a high trajectory.:D

It's funny; you've posted more videos of yourself than anyone could have wished for, and nobody here feels qualified to comment on their quality, although most of us in SD that are exposed to it can say, pretty fairly, they're excellent.

Cool stuff, man.
thanks dude ...

Woof

09-09-2007, 02:00 PM

the name the name of my school is in honor of my Master

Don't you mean the school you plan to have? Or are you back to claiming you have a school?

brucereiter

09-09-2007, 03:04 PM

There are only a few people in the ATL CSC schools that are a match for Bruce.

i can think of several who are a "match" for me lol ... some initials to name a few,
s.c., j.j., a.a, s.e., j.a., t.b., c.g., j.c., ... ... ... i learn so much each time i work out with any of those guys they all have very different skill sets that i can soak in ... these people are not involved in this forum or conversation so i did not put their names out but if you are from our school you might know them ...

there are several others who although i could "beat" them in a fight or sparring/push hands are able to teach me so many other lessons.

Then there is Master Reid who pretty much manhandles Bruce and SM Grooms who is over 50 years old and 120 pounds lighter than Bruce and he still handles him.

"pretty much" is an understatement ...lol!
master reid is very good. it is a bit intimidating pushing with him since his skill is so high and he is much stronger than i am. but every time they allow me to push with them even if it is only for a moment it is a great learning experience.

sr master gary "listens" very good and has very fast movement.

i learn so much from both of them every time i "touch" them ...

they both have a different way of presenting things and looking at things ... but both have taught me to ask questions that relate to the skill and knowledge i already have to i can build on the stuff i have learned and make my own understanding based on their teaching instead of being a carbon copy ... neither one of them expects me to move exactly like they do, they let me be myself ... and experiment and question so i can find out what works for me.

SM Grooms has also been all over the world and will “cross hands” with anyone who is willing to do so – yet no one has any “I whipped him easy” stories about him either. If someone out there met up with Bruce or SM Grooms

funny the only person in my travels who "whipped me easy" and i mean dominated me .. lol ... was a second degree bjj black belt, we were just rolling/grappling no striking ... very funny since he weighed about 150lbs and was maybe 5'7" tall ... big lesson for me ... lol ... he was being all humble but i was like wow you are like a snake ... he just slid in and attached himself to me and locked or choked me time after time ... i think the longest i held him off was maybe 45 seconds ... he has several pro mma fights behind him ... i went to there school and was allowed to join the class for the afternoon ...

(or EM Mullins, EM Leonard, EM Smith, EM Mingione, SM Price or SM Nance) and actually “crossed hands” with any of them and felt that they were clearly superior to any of them – I think you should tell us who you are and when your meeting occurred.

i have had a kicking seminar with em mullins and have observed him teaching several times, i think he is fantastic and i love how he motivates students he knows how to push you to your limit and pulls back just before you cant go on and repeats ...

i have briefly touched hands with em nance and i would say he has a fantastic martial understanding ... i look forward to meeting him again in the future.

i observed sm price teaching and had a brief conversation with him, he has a very humble and laid back approach to teaching i really liked him and the way he communicates with his students ... i had the chance to workout with one of his top students and found him to be a very good martial artist and teacher. he helped me a lot with my hsing i concepts ... i also observed him taking his own class and was impressed with his performance and understanding of the material.

on my list of people to meet and learn from are EM leonard, EM smith, EM mingione, these are people who have seen the evolution of our system and have much to offer.

best,

bruce

kwaichang

09-09-2007, 05:43 PM

Well of the views on this section of the Kung fu forum there are a total of 52,197 on all others on SD there are 234,301 on my computer, thats good advertising KC

Judge Pen

09-09-2007, 06:53 PM

So is that Ground Dragon form an excellent example of higher-level Shaolin-Do?

Yes, he's considered a higher level student. Personally, his style is a bit to "hyper" for my taste. I think he would perform better if he slowed down and extended in some parts, but that's his personal expression and there's no doubt that he can do hit all the moves with his own personal flair. That form is considered one of the more challenging, physically, in SD.

Judge Pen

09-09-2007, 06:58 PM

I plan on posting vids of myself soon. I do not claim to be an excellent example of SD. I'm posting to show how the diverse curriculum in SD can be adapted help someone in my circumstances become a well rounded and capable martial artist. I have had some degree of success in tournaments outside of SD, against disabled and able bodied opponents. I hope to see a lot of you guys in Lexington next weekend. I'll be there. I'm pretty easy to spot in a crowd. :)

I'm looking forwar to that Paul. If anyone is critical, then KC and I will hunt them down! :D

tattooedmonk

09-10-2007, 01:26 AM

Don't you mean the school you plan to have? Or are you back to claiming you have a school? What do you mean back to claiming? Do have a problem with me for some reason??

I have a school in the sense I am the teacher , I have students,I have curriculum, I teach material, but I do not have the actual location yet, unless you call the parks and public facilities I teach at schools.

I have ten steady students and ten that are in annd out

Woof

09-10-2007, 04:10 AM

This is wrong...it does plenty for your physical and psycholigical training ...I was an e.m.t/ paramedic... I was in the military ...I am a personal trainer/ martial arts instructor with 25 years experience ...I have extensive medical knowledge... and I am currently getting my masters degree in oriental medicine....( just to give you an idea of who is posting)....yeah a great deal of the training is geared towards weening out the less than desirable and to put the elite in optimal position for startegic advantage...but it is also to push the limits of the human mind ,body ,and spirit to achieve a higher goal ...and to do whatever it takes to get the job done...think about the term martial arts..what does martial mean ??? military... ..if you want to dance and do aerobics... join a tae bo class.... but if you want to be martial artist then you must train like a martial artist get in there bleed , puke, sweat, ache, and all that .....but not to the point were you get perminently injured or extensively sick...

Which branch of the military was that? How many years did you serve? When did you serve?

Baqualin

09-10-2007, 07:36 AM

IMO yes. The gentleman in that clip is an excellent example of SD. SDIC & JP are as well. I plan on posting vids of myself soon. I do not claim to be an excellent example of SD. I'm posting to show how the diverse curriculum in SD can be adapted help someone in my circumstances become a well rounded and capable martial artist. I have had some degree of success in tournaments outside of SD, against disabled and able bodied opponents. I hope to see a lot of you guys in Lexington next weekend. I'll be there. I'm pretty easy to spot in a crowd. :)

Yes, Joe did an excellent Job with the Ground Dragon.....that was filmed at the tourney last fall....he took a few medals both empty hand and with weapons. His girlfriend is very good too...I tested with her last fall.

Bent, I'll see ya Saturday......are you taking the Yin side of Meteor Fist on Sunday.:DBQ

brucereiter

09-10-2007, 09:54 AM

i have heard almost no critique of the videos i have presented. what do non sd people think? and why?

on another forum my hsing i was ripped apart and i was told it was not good but the people who told me are people who do hsing i and were willing to show me what they think is good via written description or video and i think everyone involved learned something. i think my understanding of hsing i has gotten a small bit better as a result.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x6er4aobuc
i have a long way to go but i am making progress.

do any non sd people out their want to post a video of them or their teachers doing there stuff? if not, why?

so many are critical of the way people in our system perform and understand the material but i have not been able to see if they the critics are held the the very high standards non sd people hold us too.

share your stuff!

best,

bruce