Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by canglong
The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all.
Shaolin study to be complete must encompass
1.) Chan philosophy
2.) Martial Art
3.) Health

For a martial art to be Shaolin, it has to address all three treasures of Shaolin. Each of these treasures can be broken down:

A. Three Treasures of Chan (Also refered to as the three refuges)
1. Buddha (Master)
2. Dharma (Teaching, doctrines)
3. Sangha (family/community)

B. Three Treasures of Shaolin Martial Arts
1. Gong Fa (Specialized Skill)
2. Tao Lu (Sets/ patterns)
3. Ge Dou (Fighting)

C. Three Treasures of Health
1. Essence (Jing)
2. Energy (Qi)
3. Spirit (Shen)

This is considered the recognized standard for all Shaolin not just Shaolin-Do.

canglong, you are talking about a complete study of shaolin. But several here practice shaolin martial arts without the religious aspect included. They can be seperated into parts. I'm not making an argument that shaolin-do is pure shaolin. I just think that one can study shaolin martial arts without practicing Chan Buddhism.

[canglong]

Judge Pen,
yes I agree that's why I started my post with The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all. I do think there are some that study part and believe they study the whole though.

[Judge Pen]

Fair enough. Although I'm interested in Buddhism and Taoism philosophy, it's not a religion I would practice. I don't think anyone at SD says they study all of shaolin (just the martial part). The breathing and mediation that is taught is taught as a martial and health perspective; not a spiritual element.

[canglong]

Judge Pen,
Buddhism is not classified as a religion to my knowledge it is a philosophy as you yourself have stated. I am not familiar enough with SD to discuss it in length my remarks were to simply help clarify the definition of Shaolin in this discussion.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by canglong
Judge Pen,
Buddhism is not classified as a religion to my knowledge it is a philosophy as you yourself have stated.

My misunderstanding then. I thought one defined themselves as a Buddhist as a way of identifying their faith. I'm sorry if I offended.

[canglong]

No apologies necessary just trying to share and grow like yourself.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
My misunderstanding then. I thought one defined themselves as a Buddhist as a way of identifying their faith. I'm sorry if I offended.

Most do.

It just happens to be an agnostic religion. Also, heterodoxy is no problem in China and in most Chinese religions.

Many westerners are attracted to the philosophical system presented within the Buddhist religion and therefore tend to think of it as simply a philosophy, however, it is every bit as much a religion as Christianity. You can take the philosophy of Christianity without the religion as well....it's called ethical humanism. Buddhism has a cosmological system, many formalized systems of prayer and spiritual advancement. There are formal hierarchical organizations and every other defining characteristic of "religion".

The case for Daoism as a philosophy is stronger. There is clearly regligious daoism as well but there is a much clearer tradition of daoism as simply a view of the way the world works as presented in the Yi Jing. The "Dao De Jing" ironically is not titled, "The Classic on the Dao" but rather, "The 'Sutra' of Virtue". 'Jing' is the Chinese term for religious texts. It CAN refer to philosophical works but the first association is religion. And the 'de' in Dao De Jin is not denoting the possesive. It is another character: 'virtue' ..as in 'Wu De'. The compoung word "Dao De" means: Virtue or 'morality'.

But daoism lacks Buddhism's degree of formal systemization and deity worship.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by omarthefish
however, it is every bit as much a religion as Christianity.

That's what I thought. My point was that I was attracted to the philosophy of Buddhism without it's core spiritual components. I always identified it as a religion primarily and a philosphy secondarily.

[Wharg0ul]

Threadstarter: Yes, it's "real" Kung-fu. It's an excellant system, weather you listen to the trolls or not. It's not as "pretty" as some other systems of Shaolin, but it has purpose, and martial application. If the majority of schools are scheduled like the one I belong to, there is a LOT of time spent on sparring and application study.

You will also find traditional excersise and meditation techniques, a wide range of weapons, and develop a wonderful range of versatility in fighting techniques and tactics.

It's such a shame that on THE kung-fu magazine forums, for the world to see, there are so many disrespectful people. It really makes Kung-fu practitioners look hypocritical to see us preach of respect and honor and yet assault a school and it's members every time they are raised in discussion.

[SimonM]

I'm a Buddhist.

Buddhism is my religion.

The Lord Buddha is not a god.

There is no heaven or hell.

People who say that Buddhism is not a religion have a shallow understanding of either Buddhism or religion.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
It's such a shame that on THE kung-fu magazine forums, for the world to see, there are so many disrespectful people. It really makes Kung-fu practitioners look hypocritical to see us preach of respect and honor and yet assault a school and it's members every time they are raised in discussion.

Do you hear that siren? It sounds like a Whhhhaaaa-mbulance.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SimonM
I'm a Buddhist.

Buddhism is my religion.

The Lord Buddha is not a god.

There is no heaven or hell.

People who say that Buddhism is not a religion have a shallow understanding of either Buddhism or religion. Well, since the standard textbook definition of religion is " the service and worship of God or the supernatural" and since Buddha was not a god, and did not speculate on the supernatural, you can kind of see the disconnect, can't you?

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Do you hear that siren? It sounds like a Whhhhaaaa-mbulance.


Thank you for proving my point SO elegantly. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Thank you for proving my point SO elegantly. :rolleyes: Shoo. Go practice some "kata" or your official Shaolin Fukien 24-step Yang Tai Chi that was actually invented as a wushu form in 1956.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Shoo. Go practice some "kata" or your official Shaolin Fukien 24-step Yang Tai Chi that was actually invented as a wushu form in 1956.

your confusion regarding our material does little to credit your arguments, and less to merit your negative attitude.

[MasterKiller]

I'm not confused over your material.

Tai Chi Ar Se Se Tse. That's your 24-step form.

Everyone in the rest of the world knows it was invented in 1956. Everyone from an SD school thinks it comes from Shaolin. Shaolin Bagua...Shaolin Xing Yi....Shaolin Taiji....hahahahahahhaha

[Wharg0ul]

Our Yang contains 37 postures, our COMBINED tai chi form is 24 postures, and we know where it was invented and by whom, thank you.

Your personal crusade against our school is flattering, but don't you have something more constructive to do?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Our Yang contains 37 postures, our COMBINED tai chi form is 24 postures, and we know where it was invented and by whom, thank you. So who taught it to Sin The'?

[lxtruong]

This thread will never die.

Just give up, people will have their opinons about shaolin-do regardless of what we say here. Most of the people here are set in what they think, so arguing is just blowing so much empty air.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Our Yang contains 37 postures, our COMBINED tai chi form is 24 postures, and we know where it was invented and by whom, thank you.

Your personal crusade against our school is flattering, but don't you have something more constructive to do?

Tell me please... for my own personal edification... who created the form you call Yang with 37 postures? Where was it created?

[Judge Pen]

Whe I learned Tai Chi 24, my teacher told me that it was a recently created form by various tai chi masters. Sin The did teach it to his students, but didn't claim it was from shaolin--he said it was the most popular tai chi form in the world so he taught it to his students as well. (according to my teacher anyway--I don't know what other SD schools may claim).

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by lxtruong
This thread will never die.

Just give up, people will have their opinons about shaolin-do regardless of what we say here. Most of the people here are set in what they think, so arguing is just blowing so much empty air.

I agree. I do however object to the fact that any thread brought up concearning SD immediatly becomes a target for flamers and trolls. It's disrespectul, and not necessary. Opinions are fine, everone has them, but there's no need to constantly interject it everywhere possible.

Topics about SD, or ANY other MA system do not need to be turned into 60-page flame wars. It's rediculous, childish, and it's not a very good representation of the character of kung-fu practitioners.

I've read MANY books on chinese martial arts, and so far my own training has been as consistant with what I've read as can be expected considering the cultural differances and diversities in China. If I see a chinese practitioner performing Chen style tai chi, it looks almost identical to the form I've seen (but still can't remember all of....what a brain-killer that is...). Weather or not our history is in question, our forms and techniques are legitimate.

I have better things to do than argue on forums all day. What I would LIKE to be able to do is discuss my system here without being bombarded by trolls. Is there enough mutual respect between martial artists on this board to allow for that?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
I agree. I do however object to the fact that any thread brought up concearning SD immediatly becomes a target for flamers and trolls. It's disrespectul, and not necessary. Opinions are fine, everone has them, but there's no need to constantly interject it everywhere possible. YOU ressurected this old thread. Deal with the outcome, cry baby.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
YOU ressurected this old thread. Deal with the outcome, cry baby.

This is exactly what I mean of course. Further, I don't see how being polite and respectful classifies me as a "cry baby". To me, and I'm sure most others, it signifies having basic manners and a mentality beyond that of an adolescent's.

[MasterKiller]

You can politely whine about not being able to discuss SD all day long. It still makes you a cry baby.

[Wharg0ul]

the thing I don't understand is how some people have managed to hang around this forum for so long. Almost any other forum I've been to would ban people who contribute nothing but flame wars.

It's not a problem with SD, it's a problem with moderation of these boards.

If I were for a moment to sink down to your level of maturity, I might respond with "I know you are but what am I??" :p

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
the thing I don't understand is how some people have managed to hang around this forum for so long. Almost any other forum I've been to would ban people who contribute nothing but flame wars. Well, then, check around. I regularly contribute to this board a wide and diverse range of topics concerning Chinese martial arts technique and history. Check yourself, n00b. You're fresh meat dabbling in dicey subject. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Wharg0ul]

Nice attitude. That alone is a fantastic contribution to teh kung-fu mentality :rolleyes:

/end sarcasm

Honestly, man. people should be able to post on these boards without having people like you come along and bash at them with your bully-stick.

Why is MY CHOSEN SYSTEM a dicey subject? how about you just take your opinion, and your nasty attitude elsewhere. I suppose you also have such bigotry issues in other areas, maybe race or religion?

Check your ego, sir. And check your tongue.

[Starchaser107]

Wharghoul , please contact Captain Pickaxe or Meatshake via PM and ask them thier opinions on shaolin do.

In my opinion, you can practice whatever you want to practice.
This is a public forum, with a gathering of numerous chinese martial arts teachers and students alike.
There are certain accepted facts about the origins of various styles, well documented lineages , and historical accounts.
When something comes along that seems incosistent with not only the facts , but also visually does not resemble what it claims to be , it should be expected that it will be challenged.

That's all there is to it. MasterKiller is entitled to his opinion as you are to yours. This is neither a flame war nor a cause for banning someone.

Why is it moderation thats at fault when you don't get your own way?
May I remind you that it is you who practice the style that the populous deem "sketchy", yet no moderator has attempted to ban you.

control your emotions , and try to use some reasoning and logic.
Most people here don't adhere to blind faith. If someone asks you to proove your assertions, why not oblige them instead of getting heated.

[Wharg0ul]

Excuse me, but I'm not the one raving here. As I've stated above, I've been nothing but polite here.

Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there's no reason to hijack threads just as an excuse to run down someone else's school.

It's about mutual respect. THAT's why this board needs moderation. Kung-fu practitioners should be able to come to this board and not have to worry about being persecuted about what they practice. You'll notice that I just started posting today. I've been reading these forums for a looong time now, but never posted anything because I was reluctant to be flame bait to the trolls here.
Is that right? Should someone be afraid to post on a public forum because of the nasty attitude of it's participants? Isn't that what moderation is supposed to PREVENT?

This board is a hostile, disrespectful mess. MY first post on these boards was to answer a question as to the location of the CSC in Denver, and even that thread became a flame war.

I didn't come here to prove or disprove anyone's claims about their system, or school, or history. I didn't come here raving and insulting others. But this is the treatment I have recieved.

This is what people who WOULD be members of this forum and WOULD buy this magazine see, and it's not a very good representation of our art, our our character.

It's also not a place I would like to be. It's a shame, but I think I'll stick to books and schools, and let this forum go it's own way.

[Starchaser107]

Seek and you will find.
Kung Fu Magazine is not paying it's forum members to be here.
In very rare cases some of us are even invited by staff to be here.
We are a collective group of people from various walks of life, from various sides of the planet.
If you came here and you've noticed that there is a stong discontent for shaolin-do then maybe there is a good reason for it, maybe there isn't.
Some people here have better "people skills" than others, but that's just a fact of life my friend. It's a puddle that reflects the pond of life.
There are Shaolin Do contributors to these board. Who have decided that it's better to stay than to leave.
And why not?
There is much to be learned from harsh criticisms as painful as it might be.
I understand that it is important for you to be loyal to your school.
some people vehemently oppose your schools claims, others like me play more of an Agnostic role.
Embrace it and try to learn.
Questioning things is a part of the process.

[Wharg0ul]

Constantly berating someone's school every time it is mentioned in a thread is neither constructive or useful, and is not conductive to an environment where people want to be.

Maybe some of you don't realise what a hostile, elitist environment you have here because you are used to it. But one would think that with good kung-fu, the internal aspects would be enough to prevent this kind of behavior from learned students. That is not what is exibited here, and it reflects badly on our art as a whole.
I've seen posts on these boards where people felt that they would introduce a new school tho the community, only to be insulted and flamed right off the forum.

It's disgraceful.

Maybe if someone points out that the Emperor is naked, there will be a change, but I doubt it.

[Starchaser107]

while i understand what you're saying,
it's still a two sided coin.

[mortal]

"Excuse me, but I'm not the one raving here. As I've stated above, I've been nothing but polite here."

Agreed. but your machine gun speed reponses give people the impression you are hyped up.

"Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there's no reason to hijack threads just as an excuse to run down someone else's school."

I think masterkiller is just trying to steer a newb in the right direction. At the same time trying to open your eyes to this art you study. He is actully doing you a favor.

"It's about mutual respect. THAT's why this board needs moderation. Kung-fu practitioners should be able to come to this board and not have to worry about being persecuted about what they practice. You'll notice that I just started posting today. I've been reading these forums for a looong time now, but never posted anything because I was reluctant to be flame bait to the trolls here.
Is that right? Should someone be afraid to post on a public forum because of the nasty attitude of it's participants? Isn't that what moderation is supposed to PREVENT?"

Why would a nasty attitude make you afraid to post? Just debate your point. Ignore posters that just seem like they are attacking you personally.

"This board is a hostile, disrespectful mess. MY first post on these boards was to answer a question as to the location of the CSC in Denver, and even that thread became a flame war."

You think it is bad here? Go to bullshido.

"I didn't come here to prove or disprove anyone's claims about their system, or school, or history. I didn't come here raving and insulting others. But this is the treatment I have recieved."

Unfortunatly that happens here and in real life. My teacher was a monk and when I came on here everyone said he was fake and I freaked out. I knew he was skilled. That should have been good enough, but I argued and got defensive. Wasting my time and energy. Examine who is posting and what their past contibutions to the forum have been.

"This is what people who WOULD be members of this forum and WOULD buy this magazine see, and it's not a very good representation of our art, our our character."

Everyones art here is very different. Everyones character is different. I don't take kungfu to be enlightened. I train to improve movement and fight. Does nothing but waste your mental energy and time.

"It's also not a place I would like to be. It's a shame, but I think I'll stick to books and schools, and let this forum go it's own way."

Don't run away. Stand and argue your points or move on to another thread and ignore this one. Which by the way you brought back to life after months of dormincy.

[GeneChing]

Kung Fu Magazine is not paying it's forum members to be here. That would be the day, wouldn't it?

We offer this forum as a public service, and a place to help promote our wares. For me personally, it's been a great place to send all those questions I get, since almost every one of them have already been answered here or can be answered here by one of many of our illustrious members. The forum is free, with the stipulation that we can revoke membership at any time, and edit or delete posts at our pleasure. We generally don't exercise this right unless provoked.

Shaolin-Do is always heated here. Just check our archives. A Shaolin-Do person who comes here steps into the hornets nest, but they have no one to blame but themselves since the archives are readily available to anyone, even non-members.

Have fun and carry on! :cool:

[BM2]

I have been saving up all this cyber money Gene sends to me via PMs and now I find out it's worthless.
Masterkiller, take a look at the quote at the end of my reply.















































.

[Judge Pen]

This board is like life, and in life you are going to get all kinds of mixed nuts whether you are polite to them or not. Now the romantic notion is that people who share a love for kung fu should treat each other differently, but really that's unrealistic in life, and it's certainly unrealistic on an internet board full of anononimity (sp). MK and I go round on these points often, but only when someone new comes along and raises the issue. The rest of the time we debate movies, football, women, and technique . Talk about techniques and no one will attack the art that you study if you show knowledge with what you are talking about. Talk about history and. . . . well you've seen what happens.

Here's another challenge to you: Meet some people here. Train with them. So far I've meet people from Nashville, Asheville, and Atlanta. I've attempted to meet with some of the heavy-weights here like MonkeySlap Too and SevenStar (but I couldn't work it into my travel schedule at that time). Empty your cup and see what they have to offer. Take a seminar or two. It will give you a perspective on your own art and people wouldn't be able to accuse you of being closed minded.

Oh, if you think MK is bad, wait until you are dealing with Fred Sanford! He hates us! :D

[BM2]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


Oh, if you think MK is bad, wait until you are dealing with Fred Sanford! He hates us! :D [/B]

Oh I feel the love now!

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
This is what people who WOULD be members of this forum and WOULD buy this magazine see, and it's not a very good representation of our art, our our character. It's called Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine, not Indonesian Karate Quaterly. Maybe you're at the wrong forum?

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Our Yang contains 37 postures, our COMBINED tai chi form is 24 postures, and we know where it was invented and by whom, thank you.

Your personal crusade against our school is flattering, but don't you have something more constructive to do?

I was in the first Tai Chi 24 class that Master Sin taught and as JP stated, the background told to us was that it was a relatively new form that he had picked up from a collegue and was not part of the material handed down by Master Ie.

ok, what Yang 37? I am only aware of 64. Do you close out at the Cloud Hands posture or what?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
ok, what Yang 37? I am only aware of 64. Do you close out at the Cloud Hands posture or what?

By some counts, our 64 form can be counted as 37 (duplicate postures, etc.)

[Brad]

Yang 37 is also a name of Cheng Man Ching's short form... from the clip of SD's 64 form I saw, I don't think they're the same thing(unless one of y'all modified it at some point). The 24 combined form was created by a comitee headed by Li Tian Ji around 1956. It's mostly Yang style, with some Sun style influence. This was the start of the modern wushu taiji program, which latter included a number of forms combining techniques from the major styles.



Oh, if you think MK is bad, wait until you are dealing with Fred Sanford! He hates us!
Fred hates everybody though :p

[Judge Pen]

PM sent Brad.

Oh, and it's too Bad Fu Pow/Au Lek or whatever the heck he calls himself isn't here too. He likes to jomp on this bandwagon.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
By some counts, our 64 form can be counted as 37 (duplicate postures, etc.)

In the book it's listed as a 37 posture, on the FLYER, it's listed as 64. I guess it depends on how you count the postures, and if you lump the duplicates together, or what-not.
I learned the Louhan Short-forms in 30 steps, for example, when in reality there are 108. But they were tought to me in larger "chunks" to speed training.

[Judge Pen]

Wharg0ul, I've sent you a PM.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
In the book it's listed as a 37 posture, on the FLYER, it's listed as 64. I guess it depends on how you count the postures, and if you lump the duplicates together, or what-not.
I learned the Louhan Short-forms in 30 steps, for example, when in reality there are 108. But they were tought to me in larger "chunks" to speed training.

Wharg0ul, if I can be nosy.......How long have you been at CSC and what rank are you?.....just wondering

[MasterKiller]

I predict he just got his first black belt and now walks around with his chest puffed out.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I predict he just got his first black belt and now walks around with his chest puffed out.

Yer **** right I'd be proud to have first black. :D

To answer your question, GoldenTiger, I'm only a n00b. I've been at this CSC for 6 months, and am a lowly 3rd Brown. I've been progressing slowly, not testing until I had the material as dialed as realistically possible. There's no sense in being sloppy with martial arts. It continues to improve, of course, since I go through ALL of my material every other day.

Although the short time I've spent on this forum has led me to be more curious about the history of our school and it's Grand Master, It doesn't matter that much to me. The system has done great things for me, and I see the results of long-term practice constantly in the higher-ranked students of my class, and my instructor. I see good skill, character, health, and vitality. Since these same things are my goals, I figure I'm on the right path. Not to mention that the techniques I've learned work well for me in sparring, both within the school and without.

Masterkiller: let me apologise for my rude behavior, and some of my rather presumptuous statements. I'm sure that although you SEEM like a .....well, I'm sure you're probably a good guy. :p

[Golden Tiger]

Thanks Wharg. 6 months...I seem to remember that point way back when. I must admit that that is definitely excellerated to be a 3rd brown but perhaps you are a quick study.

As for the rest of keyboard comando's you will encounter here, do as I do....take all they say with a grain of salt. Hell, most are pretty funny when they aren't slamming SD.


MK, I was like that when I got my black belt....then that puffy chest fell and made a puffy belly....

:(

[Wharg0ul]

Yeah, I pick up on stuff fast...and I've played around with some other systems when I was younger (32 now). Most of my lower belt time was spent polishing and working on fine points. I tested in December to 3rd Brown, right before our 2-week holiday break.

It is common in our school for talented students to quickly attain brown belt, but there, the speed stops. A lot of time is spent at this rank further polishing your lower belt stuff, while still learning your new material. We also have the option to participate in the lower belt classes, thus further reviewing and polishing.

The REAL training begins at first black, however. Everything's pretty much building blocks up 'till then.

[Starchaser107]

Ahhh.

Blessed!

[BM2]

It took me over a year for me to get to brown. And my instructor would not allow us to test for black untill after 3 years and this was when the requirements were Tiger, Dao and the iron ruler or sai were all you needed from brown to black.
I taught for a while and you would just now be getting your blue and that would be the fastest.
In BJJ, it takes 10 years for black, around 7 for brown and about year before your first belt if you can demostrate the material you learned in class and in matches.
If I was teaching again it would be 1/2 time learning and drilling, 1/2 sparring. If it took four years or more to get your black, so be it. It took me 3 1/2 years and a lot less to learn. There is another 1 1/2 years of stuff to learn now.
Have to say I admire the way you haven't let mk get too much under your skin. themeecer would be proud
:p

[Lokhopkuen]

Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
I'm sure that although you SEEM like a .....well, I'm sure you're probably a good guy. :p

That's what I first thought of him too. :p

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Lokhopkuen
Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

Our site doesn't have any vids of my teachers up yet, but they are supposed to at some point.

[BM2]

Originally posted by Lokhopkuen
Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

Can not say that I haven't seen this myself. Most likely due to the number of people that I have known but really we are all not nice people ;) And you thought I was talking about Fa jing?
The lack of it, at least in my humble opinion, may in part be due to the rapid learning of a form then learning of another then learning of another.
One of JP's instructors should really put out a Hua or Long Fist, as those are my favorites, on the web.

[David Jamieson]

shaolin-do is real shaolin-do.

it's not shaolin, it's not songshan shaolin, it's not sil lum and it's not siu lahm.

it is Sin Kwan thé's personally created style that he namde shaolin-do to pay homage to the foundation of all martial arts.

historically, Thé is a karateka who has expanded his repetoire over the years. so it's like a modified kempo karate thing.

In the end, is it the original? No. Nobody has the original. IN fact, there is no such thing as the original. Besides, would you want "the original"? would you want a model-T car instead of a new one? besides the collectable value, it is virtually worthless from a practical sense.

food for thought, but no one can claim the original shaolin, only a foundation and all asian martial arts have foundational aspects that are the same regardless of country of origin or style or pai or any of that. different expressions? sure, different flair? you bet.

anyway, will people ever stop wanting to be part of something that is illusory in the first place? train, don't train, do it with friends or in a like minded community.

everyone is for real and at the same time a mere blurry reflection of what was and Thé is certainly not the only kungfu / karate guy out there with a questionable lineage and history. I would say that that is the case with a great deal of martial arts instructors out there whether they know it...or not. :p

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Lokhopkuen
Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

I can't speak for Shaolin-Do in general, but ONE of the many reasons I settled at this particular school was the Fa jing and near flawless form demonstrated by some of our students.

What you need to realise is that Shaolin-Do is what you make of it. They show you the material, guide you on fine points, but it is YOU who needs to decide if you want to do sloppy kung-fu, or really put your spirit into it.

We have students who are PHENOMENAL matial artists. When you see them practice, you think "this is how kung-fu SHOULD look, and be". Thes are the students that I try to train with as much as possible.

We also have the slackers...ya know, the 16-year-old girls looking at the ceiling the whole time, looking like constipated movie actors. I do not train with these people.

I don't want to say "our school is differant" because I'm sure that's been said by many....but I do have to say that my school does not seem to fit the shaolin-do image, and were it not for the fact that our GM is Sin Kwang The', I would not have even known that it WAS SD.

We also have students from several other systems who have moved in to stay with us. Their training seems pretty consistant with ours.

BM2: with respect, this is not BJJ. Once black is attained, there are about 15 years of training ahead just to reach 5th black, or Master in our system. The material does not stop coming....ever.

If anyone even wanders into Colorado Springs, feel free to visit our CSC and sit in on a class. You may be surprised.

[Brad]

It's one of those things I'd have to see to believe... The two high up instructers I've seen videos of just weren't very good(Sin The, & Mr. Mullins). I mean, they seem to have some martial arts skills, but not in what they were trying to perform. Reminded me of my dad(an old Tae Kwon Do blackbelt) when he does Tai Chi. He's a great Tae Kwon Do fighter and can still whoop me pretty good, but his tai chi isn't that good. He's still a Tae Kwon Do guy trying to do a tai chi form, which is the impression that I get from watching Shaolin-Do people. It's like the basics they are versed in, don't match the style(s) they're trying to learn. I could learn a 7 star mantis form, but because most of my basic training is in something else, the form isn't going to benifit me as much as a hardcore mantis guy. Does that make sense?

[Zenshiite]

Originally posted by SimonM
There is no heaven and hell.

Didn't Buddha talk about heavens and hells?

What about the notion expressed in some Buddhist paintings that monks who abuse animals will be tortured in a hell?

Peace.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BM2

One of JP's instructors should really put out a Hua or Long Fist, as those are my favorites, on the web.

They may put part of a Hua on their site, but not the entire form.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

BM2: with respect, this is not BJJ. Once black is attained, there are about 15 years of training ahead just to reach 5th black, or Master in our system. The material does not stop coming....ever.


Wharg0ul, BM2 has more experience in SD than any other person that posts here other than maybe GT. He cross-trains in bjj.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad
It's like the basics they are versed in, don't match the style(s) they're trying to learn. I could learn a 7 star mantis form, but because most of my basic training is in something else, the form isn't going to benifit me as much as a hardcore mantis guy. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense, and it's a legitimate criticism. In my experience, the higher-ups in SD start to focus on a set of material and that material may strat to pick up the subleties that are often lost on the basic practitioner in that area. But without the decision to really focus on one set of material, they can bleed together and look alike--a real problem in SD and any other school that teaches parts of different styles.

[SimonM]

Originally posted by Zenshiite
Didn't Buddha talk about heavens and hells?

What about the notion expressed in some Buddhist paintings that monks who abuse animals will be tortured in a hell?

Peace.

Some forms of buddhism do refer to the existence of "pure lands" where individuals can go on a fast track to enlightenment in a future life. These are similar to - but different - from heaven. They are most relevant in "pure land" buddhism, a sect I tend to disagree with on several key points of faith.

As for hells, you must remember that Buddhism tended to tack its system onto the framework of local religions. Local pre-buddhist religions through central and east asia included many versions of the underworld. Thus Buddhism in those areas also included an underworld. In those sects of Buddhism (and you must remember that Pure Land - the sect I disagree with is the most populous sect of Buddhism in Japan and one of the most populous ones in China) that pay attention to the "Pure Lands" (I do not) these underworlds tend to take on a more "hell" like feel.

In Chinese Buddhism the Heaven refered to is usually the heaven of the celestial bureaucracy; not exactly an afterlife of any sort. For a strong example of the interaction between Buddhism and local faiths read "Journey into the West" or "Monkey" by Wu Cheng-En.

I was raised in a western buddhist household. That meant that rather than my education in Buddhism including Buddhist specific metaphysics and ethics along with Chinese/Japanese/Tibetan/Nepalese/Indian metaphysics it was Buddhist metaphysics and ethics along with European Atheism. As I was raised by Athiests who had in turn been raised by Universalists my specific cultural bias is one to disbelieve the notion of an afterlife.

Everything moves in cycles; what happens now has happened before and will happen again. As such I find it hard to believe in any final, eternal home for the soul - the Western view of Hell. So I deny the existence of hell.

That being said, I am willing to allow that someone who is too bound into the aciton of Samsara may find themselves trapped in an incarnation full of even more illusions and suffering than the incarnation which those of us who are alive today are accustomed. For them that incarnation may very well seem like hell. Is that the same thing? I think not.

[BM2]

Wharg0ul, your enthusiasm and attitude is admirable. I hope you the best. JP has more time and rank than I do, he is modest.

The point I failed to make was a first deg. BB in SD has the basics down and is ready to learn. A BB in BJJ is a bad MoFo. A purple is a bad MoFo too as they have about the same time in to be a black belt if they were in another martial art.
I would rather see at a minimum of 3.5 years for a BB in SD.
But what others do at their clubs is their buisness and they know best on how to run it as they are the ones paying the bills. My opinions are just mine. If someone was telling me how best to run my club it would surely **** me off.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Wharg0ul, BM2 has more experience in SD than any other person that posts here other than maybe GT. He cross-trains in bjj.

I was not aware of this :)

In that case, BM2: Do you find that BJJ and SD are good partners as far as cross-training? I ask because as much as I LOATHE grappling, it is my opinion that grappling is a weakness in my art. There are several good BJJ schools in my area, and the opportunity to cross-train is almost too good to pass up. Thoughts? Suggestions?

AND....thank you for the complement :) /bow

[Ralphie]

If you want a good bjj place to go to, I train here www.bjjboulder.com Amal puts out a lot of quality competitors, and the environment is very friendly. I believe Amal is opening a south Denver school soon, too.
Cheers,
Steve

[BM2]

The only reason I do BJJ is that it is fun! It isn't for some just as striking arts are not for others. If it isn't something your interested in then I wouldn't do it to round out the small amount of ground work in SD. But at the extremly reasonble rates you pay for SD you could do both, you would be very busy to do both.

[Wharg0ul]

That's my main problem....the time to do it. maybe in a couple years.....

Ralphie: when I test in Boulder, I may just stop and see your school. They have a sweet web site. Thank you :)

Now....time for Sen Jow....ow....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by BM2
[B]Have to say I admire the way you haven't let mk get too much under your skin. themeecer would be proud
:p /B] Wearing blinders is easy. Removing them is the hard part. ;)

[BM2]

Ever notice that the ones who try to force their religous beliefs unpon others never are interested in listening to the others religous beliefs.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by BM2
Ever notice that the ones who try to force their religous beliefs unpon others never are interested in listening to the others religous beliefs. Yep. That's my whole point. LALLALALALLALALALA Sin The' is the Shao-Lin Grandmaster LALALALLALALALA

I mean, at least you guys don't have a super-secret message board no one outside of SD can look at. That would be...I dunno...sad.

[BM2]

Man I need to proof read before posting!
So MK, what is your opinion on the UFC reality show?

[MasterKiller]

Haven't seen it. What channel, SPIKE TV?

[Jhapa]

Originally posted by BM2
UFC reality show?

i saw the previews for it, i think it is gonna be stupid, just like any other reality shows

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I stayed up and watched and it sucked. Too much drama, not enough training/fighting. Reality TV bites it big but it's filling up the air time.

I gave up on the Next Great Champ or whatever that boxing one was called.

[MasterKiller]

I'm more into Pride and K-1 than UFC, anyway.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Lokhopkuen
Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

A perfect example of this would be Master Eric Smith and his Candle seminar. In it, he explained how using total body linkage (Fa Jing) could manifest incredible power. Putting out the candle (from a distance) requires an almost instant linkage from the foot to the palm.

Trust me (or not), it is very powerful.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Wharg0ul, BM2 has more experience in SD than any other person that posts here other than maybe GT. He cross-trains in bjj.

Going on 30 years....

Uh ohhh....BM2..didn't know you were doing BJJ. Better work on my grappling skills.

[Fred Sanford]

Oh, if you think MK is bad, wait until you are dealing with Fred Sanford! He hates us!

Sounds about right. I am still totally amazed how frickin stoopid all youse SDers are. Wow.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
A perfect example of this would be Master Eric Smith and his Candle seminar. In it, he explained how using total body linkage (Fa Jing) could manifest incredible power. Putting out the candle (from a distance) requires an almost instant linkage from the foot to the palm.

Trust me (or not), it is very powerful. Um...you mean this parlor trick?:rolleyes:

http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/shaolinhistory19.avi

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Um...you mean this parlor trick?:rolleyes:

http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/shaolinhistory19.avi

Yes, it could be considered a parlor trick. Then again, so is breaking concrete, wood or what ever.

But to put the candle out from a distance (best I have seen is about 2.5- 3 ft), it requires more focus than most can do. Of course, it is all physics but it is a great way to improve your full body linkage. In essence, you are compressing a column of air (not fanning, thats cheating) and pushing it. To do it effectively, the motion from the heel to the palm must happen in an instant. Smaller amount of time= more impact. (the actually formula eludes me at the moment but its the opposite of how an air bag works. the airbag slows your deceleration and decreases the force)

So yes, its a trick. It is also a way of gauging your snap and power.

PS. That vid won't load on this computer so I am not sure which one MK posted so I am speaking in general terms.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
PS. That vid won't load on this computer so I am not sure which one MK posted so I am speaking in general terms. 1990 Demo off this page:

http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Looks like their computer kung fu isn't to swift. I can't get them to play correctly even with the DIVX Player.

[sean_stonehart]

HLL... try Real One... but it flips the clip upside down

[Judge Pen]

I always liked the "suspended break" at that site. I haven't tried it myself, but it looks impressive.

The candle thing is simple physics, but as GT pointed out, it's not as easy as it might look. Does it equal "fa jing" in the true sense of the term? I don't know; as least no one is saying he is shooting his chi. :D

And BM2, I may have more rank, but you have been around for a lot longer than me. I just didn't take as many years off as you before I started training again!

[Wharg0ul]

Just a quick question. If it is indeed air that blows the flame out....how is it that one can blow out the SECOND candle in a line of three without blowing out the first? A subtle change in angle of attack, maybe? Because the air isn't going to go around the first candle and then strike the second.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Just a quick question. If it is indeed air that blows the flame out....how is it that one can blow out the SECOND candle in a line of three without blowing out the first? A subtle change in angle of attack, maybe? Because the air isn't going to go around the first candle and then strike the second.


I have never seen that one done and I would have to see it first. I have seen it done with a jar over it . (they always seem to wait till the O2 runs out in the jar to shoot chi at it though...hmmmm)

And no JP, its not the mystical chi that does it unless you could call the focus and directing of energy (the snap) "chi". I have done meditation longer than some of you all have been alive and I haven't to date been able to point at someone and give them a "chi blast". (Not to say that it can't be done, just that I don't have personal experience with it).

[Brad]

Putting candles out with punches means you're good at putting candles out with punches. Yeah, tricks like that take work and focus, but it doesn't necesarilly translate to martial arts ability. Same with breaking boards and bricks. I think time spent learning these tricks could probably be spent in much more effecient ways of improving martial arts skill.

[Brad]

Ok, I downloaded the clips... kind of cheap tricks if you ask me :( He uses an open palm making it much easier(imo) to put out the flame. No root or strong waist movement required(though he does dramatize his movements a bit). Just quick hands pushing air at the candle.

[Brad]

Too bad the forms clips aren't working.

[Brad]

They screwed up their email link too... It's allways a good idea to test your links when you put a website up :p

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Brad
Ok, I downloaded the clips... kind of cheap tricks if you ask me :( He uses an open palm making it much easier(imo) to put out the flame. No root or strong waist movement required(though he does dramatize his movements a bit). Just quick hands pushing air at the candle.


I beg to differ Brad on the "no root or strong waist" part. If you do the mechanics correctly, you will find that your waist is generating (or conveying) the motion from the legs to the palm.

Before you call it a cheap trick, I suggest you try it, video tape it and post it. Then, if you can still say it is nothing more than a trick and does nothing for power, focus or martial art skills, I will say that you have made an informed decision.

As for the open hand being much easier, open your mouth as wide as you can and try to blow out a candle.....larger diameter of air flow is not always better.

[SimonM]

I have done candle punching; it's much easier with an open hand.

[lxtruong]

I have no idea why this is the case, but I've done this. I lined up 3 candles and then put out candles 3, 2, then 1. It was very weird, and I have no idea why this happened. I'm a beginner with this type of stuff, so I wouldn't say that it was necessarily an advanced skill. Or maybe I just got lucky? Or has to do with the way you strike with a palm strike.

[Golden Tiger]

Hard to say what happened there lxtruong, you might just already have the "stuff". A good way to practice is to light incense or other smoke producing material ;) and the practice the technique. That way, you can tell where the "shockwave" is going and how to correct the position to make it strike where you want it to.

Just an idea.....

[Starchaser107]

...

[Brad]

Before you call it a cheap trick, I suggest you try it, video tape it and post it.
Going to buy me a video camera? ;)

[Jhapa]

Originally posted by lxtruong
I have no idea why this is the case, but I've done this. I lined up 3 candles and then put out candles 3, 2, then 1. It was very weird, and I have no idea why this happened. I'm a beginner with this type of stuff, so I wouldn't say that it was necessarily an advanced skill. Or maybe I just got lucky? Or has to do with the way you strike with a palm strike.

how much did your hand move. in the video he moves his hand about 1 foot, that's a lot of distance. i have seen clips that hand only moved about an inch from atleast 1 foot or more away. now if you can blow out a candle with your hand only moving about an inch, now that takes skills. i have only done it twice out of 100's and i don't know how i did it. if you asked to do it, i probably won't be able to do it to save my life. i was not impressed with the clip of master smith blowing out the candles.

[Brad]

BTW, I emailed the guy about most of the vids not working, and he said he's in the middle of switching servers...

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by Jhapa
how much did your hand move. in the video he moves his hand about 1 foot, that's a lot of distance. i have seen clips that hand only moved about an inch from atleast 1 foot or more away. now if you can blow out a candle with your hand only moving about an inch, now that takes skills. i have only done it twice out of 100's and i don't know how i did it. if you asked to do it, i probably won't be able to do it to save my life. i was not impressed with the clip of master smith blowing out the candles.

I'm a beginner, so I make no illusions as to how much my hand moved. I didn't measure it, but it had to have been somewhere in the 4-6 inch range.

[Jhapa]

Originally posted by lxtruong
I'm a beginner, so I make no illusions as to how much my hand moved. I didn't measure it, but it had to have been somewhere in the 4-6 inch range.

i'm a beginner also. i just got lucky.

[shen ku]

hi i am very new to all of this forum stuff. But i would like to here more from judge pen. what is your rank? i am sure i know who your teacher is by the thiengs you have said. i also practice shao-lin do, and teach as well,

[MasterKiller]

Man, these threads are like pheromones for SDers.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Man, these threads are like pheromones for SDers.

kinda like flypaper for freaks? eh MK?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
kinda like flypaper for freaks? eh MK? Don't be so hard on yourself.

[shen ku]

does anyone here know if the guy posting under the name sin the is really grandmaster sin the ???

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by shen ku
does anyone here know if the guy posting under the name sin the is really grandmaster sin the ??? Of course it's him. Who else would it be?

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by shen ku
does anyone here know if the guy posting under the name sin the is really grandmaster sin the ???

I HIGHLY doubt it. Especially looking at the schedule I have here. I doubt very much if he'd have time, or the inclination, to post here.

Edit: not to mention, just look at the attitude presented by this forum user, as exampled by their post history. This is not the attitude of one who has studied martial arts for a lifetime.

[MasterKiller]

Are you kidding? Any man that can learn 900 forms, swim using only his pecs, and climb a pole without hands or feet by twisting his body like a snake surely can find enough time to set us non-believers straight. I mean, c'mon. Maybe you need to re-watch your copy of "At the Feet of the Grandmaster."

[Radhnoti]

shen ku, the Sin The' persona is a second account set up by a regular here for fun and mockery. :)

JP is a student of one of the Masters' Mullins.

Welcome to the somewhat addictive and entirely unhealthy world of martial arts internet forums. Good luck. ;)

[shen ku]

hay sorry i have not looked at all of his postings, i was with master sin on the 2001 china trip and did some of the demos , i will try to get the names of the school where the master and his top student did and extra demo for us at the end and it was just like the stuff i have seen in shaolin do. the master was 75 years old and ya like they all say told us we did like what he was shown

[shen ku]

hello Redhnoti, i take it that you train in shaolin do , what area are you from? time in the art? and rank?

[Wharg0ul]

Shen Ku, welcome to the forum (from one n00b to another).

I do need to warn you that some people around here are a bit.....harsh on us Shaolin Do students, but don't let it get to ya.

There's a lot to be learned here, if you ignore the rumblings from beneath the bridge... ;)

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by shen ku
hay sorry i have not looked at all of his postings, i was with master sin on the 2001 china trip and did some of the demos , i will try to get the names of the school where the master and his top student did and extra demo for us at the end and it was just like the stuff i have seen in shaolin do. the master was 75 years old and ya like they all say told us we did like what he was shown

Well... that was Xian... Zhao Chang-jun's school... It was Zhao's top student & he did a Taiji Mei Hua Mantis (I think...) set (none in SD... nothing like SD's interpretation of Mantis). Zhao's teacher did a Xingyi linkage. SD xingyi bears a superficial resemblance to what did because the postures were almost the same, but the moving & linking of the postures wasn't even in the same ball park.

He said that stuff to be nice & oh yeah... there was a solo Hua set that was done that bears a resemblance to his root system, Zha Quan.

Next.....

[shen ku]

sean_stonehart, you talk as if you saw it , was you there?

[sean_stonehart]

possibly... maybe... it's conceivable...

[shen ku]

hay i had seen on other forums talk that CLF has a "hairy monk" in its past and someone said they had a pic of him, does anyone have anyideas if it is true or where the pic could be seen?

[shen ku]

sean_stonehart, first let me say i can deal with all the bashing of my art , its fine i do what i do, so was you there?

[Brad]

hay i had seen on other forums talk that CLF has a "hairy monk" in its past
Do you remember what forums?

[shen ku]

brad? do i dont i will try and find it again

another ??? can anyone tell me about the origins of shorin-ryu??

[Brad]

Zhao's teacher did a Xingyi linkage. SD xingyi bears a superficial resemblance to what did because the postures were almost the same, but the moving & linking of the postures wasn't even in the same ball park.
My teacher's late teacher's book has the xingyi form from the SD videos show, but like you said the movement and details are missing. The book is called "The Skill of Xingyi Quan" by Li Tian Ji. Li Tian Ji is the same guy who's credited with creating the 24 movement taiji form(also the 48 & 66 move combined taiji quan forms, and 88 move Yang taiji quan).
Basically it's like someone who'd seen xingyi a few times tried learning the form from a book, and added a few techniques that don't really fit.

[shen ku]

the hairy monk comment was on a russbo.com forum

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by shen ku
hay i had seen on other forums talk that CLF has a "hairy monk" in its past and someone said they had a pic of him, does anyone have anyideas if it is true or where the pic could be seen?

Back it up... provide a link. I can't wait to see it!!! :rolleyes:

[shen ku]

? so would i ? all i found was the comment and never could find anything elsa???

[sean_stonehart]

Provide the link to the russbo thread then... you said you saw it, you provide it...

[Radhnoti]

I've heard second hand comments about a hairy monk in CLF as well, but I believe that the reported era was different than Su Kong's so I didn't follow up on it.

Shen ku, I'm a first black in shaolin-do and I've studied and researched a few other martial arts as well. I've on this forum...mostly reading...far longer than I have an excuse for. I'm in SE KY. BTW, you can hit "profile" below the posts people make and they sometimes will have put some basic info down for public consumption.

[Radhnoti]

Oh...one more thing. Anyone who's membership profile says they've been here since 1969 just means they've been here since they switched servers a few (4 now?) years back. I've not wasted THAT much time here. :D

[shen ku]

like i said i am new to all this kind of stuff (computers) i found where the comment was made but have no idea how to link to it in order to show it here??

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
I've heard second hand comments about a hairy monk in CLF as well, but I believe that the reported era was different than Su Kong's so I didn't follow up on it.


Ok... let me end the "hairy monk" thing. There is no hairy monk in CLF. There was a monk by the name Ching Cho or Green Grass Monk. Depending on the lineage of CLF one practices, did or did not exist.

Not hairy... :eek:

[Brad]

like i said i am new to all this kind of stuff (computers) i found where the comment was made but have no idea how to link to it in order to show it here??

When looking at the coment on the other board, you can right click on the address shown in the address bar of your browser(at which point it should highlight), select "copy" from the little menu that pops up, then come back here and when you reply to the thread, just right click again where you would right your message and select "paste". Then just "submit reply" like usual.

[Golden Tiger]

Sean, didn't you used to be a SD guy? Coming across as a tad bitter these days. Grooms run you off too?

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Sean, didn't you used to be a SD guy? Coming across as a tad bitter these days. Grooms run you off too?

Nah... he didn't run me off. We actually got along pretty well & still do now. I just found something that fit me better.

I'm not bitter. Seriously I'm not. Master The is a really nice guy & I enjoyed meeting the people I did while I trained in SD. I've got my own reasons for speaking out against portions of the SD machine.

[Golden Tiger]

To each his own. I was just asking because I got wind of some "spring cleaning" down that way.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shen ku
hi i am very new to all of this forum stuff. But i would like to here more from judge pen. what is your rank? i am sure i know who your teacher is by the thiengs you have said. i also practice shao-lin do, and teach as well,

I'm 3rd black. Started training in Virginia under Vernard Whitaker. I'm sure you know my teachers too although they are no longer listed under the SDA site. Where do you teach SK?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shen ku
does anyone here know if the guy posting under the name sin the is really grandmaster sin the ???

Of course it's not. It can be pretty funny though if you have a sense of humor about these things.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart
Ok... let me end the "hairy monk" thing. There is no hairy monk in CLF. There was a monk by the name Ching Cho or Green Grass Monk. Depending on the lineage of CLF one practices, did or did not exist.

Not hairy... :eek:

Hiary monk, grassy monk. It's all the same, right? ;) :p

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Hiary monk, grassy monk. It's all the same, right? ;) :p

Nah... not even... one shaves & the other needs mulching... hehehehehehehe....

kidding ... kidding... just kidding... :D

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
To each his own. I was just asking because I got wind of some "spring cleaning" down that way.

PM sent

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart
Well... that was Xian... Zhao Chang-jun's school... It was Zhao's top student & he did a Taiji Mei Hua Mantis (I think...) set (none in SD... nothing like SD's interpretation of Mantis). Zhao's teacher did a Xingyi linkage. SD xingyi bears a superficial resemblance to what did because the postures were almost the same, but the moving & linking of the postures wasn't even in the same ball park.

He said that stuff to be nice & oh yeah... there was a solo Hua set that was done that bears a resemblance to his root system, Zha Quan.

Next..... Word.

[Judge Pen]

From all accounts our Hua forms are spot-on. Now I guess you can claim that they were stolen from somewhere else, but I've yet to see the source if they were.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
From all accounts our Hua forms are spot-on. Now I guess you can claim that they were stolen from somewhere else, but I've yet to see the source if they were. Compared to what? Where have you seen other "Hua Mountain" forms performed?

[sean_stonehart]

Mk... I'll find the link, but Google Peter Kwok from New Jersey. The Hua sets taught in his schools are identical to the SD Hua, except SD Hua's tend to be performed more athletically/dynamically...

**EDIT**

Here's a link to the 3rd Road of Hua done by a Peter Kwok Student... http://www.littleriverkungfu.com/videos/hwa_chuan_3.mov

It's the same set as the SD 3rd Road.

There used to be video of a guy doing the same set on this site, but it seems to have been taken down now. http://www.chinahand.com

[Judge Pen]

I've seen one clip on the internet that was almost identical. I've heard others outside of SD that have seen the forms comment that ours looks authentic (Sean just gave an example). If I believe the word of my immediate teachers, then the first road of Hua was what was performed in front of Coach He. Those are the only accounts that I know of.

If you have any other clips to other Hua Mountain forms I'd love to see them. So far, all I've found on the internet are the ones from the "Little River" kung fu school.

One day, MK, I'll get to Oklahoma and show you some forms in person. I'm not that good, but I'll bring a thick skin. :D

Edit: Sean, I think that's the clip I'm referring to. If it's the same, then the performer, a woman, may be slowing down a bit to show the form more--her stances seemed a bit high too, but you know how I am about stances.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Edit: Sean, I think that's the clip I'm referring to. If it's the same, then the performer, a woman, may be slowing down a bit to show the form more--her stances seemed a bit high too, but you know how I am about stances.

Yeah that's the one. There was a guy doing 3rd Road in a tournie on the other site I posted but I can't locate it. Oh well...

And as far as stances... you know my outlook on that now!!! No knee probs after 5 years of wearing braces!!! Gotta say something... :eek: :cool:

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart


And as far as stances... you know my outlook on that now!!! No knee probs after 5 years of wearing braces!!! Gotta say something... :eek: :cool:

Well my knee problem was a freak and not related to stances; however, you are older than me! :eek: :D

[MasterKiller]

I've seen the little river clips. In fact, I think I pointed JP there a couple of years ago.

You're welcome in Oklahoma anytime. If you're nice, I'll even let you touch my DeathStar playset.

[Judge Pen]

I think you're right MK. Do you know of any other clips? I'd love to see them.

I keep planning to go to the Taiji Legacy, but other trips keep getting in the way. Last year it was Stanford for business. This year its Hawaii for fun!

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I think you're right MK. Do you know of any other clips? I'd love to see them. Those are the only one's I've seen. I was actually looking for Flower (Hua) fist sets when I stumbled across Little River.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
however, you are older than me! :eek: :D


B*A*S*T*A*R*D* ..... :D

[BM2]

If it makes you feel any better Sean, I waay older than you. But then again I have waay more hair, better looking umm...sorry I was just trying to make you feel better :D

[Judge Pen]

Found another example of Hua Mountain Fist:

http://www.chinahand.com/News/photo_gallery.htm

It's the same as what I'm being taught.

[norther practitioner]

I thought your hua wasn't like THE northern hua.. this looks like the standard northern hua. Or at least what I understand it to look like, very similar to zha, and northern shaolin long fist. The clips of hua I've seen from you guys doesn't usually look anything like this.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Found another example of Hua Mountain Fist:

http://www.chinahand.com/News/photo_gallery.htm

It's the same as what I'm being taught. I hope you do it better than that guy. He sucks as bad as me.

It's a nice long-fist form though.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
I thought your hua wasn't like THE northern hua.. this looks like the standard northern hua. Or at least what I understand it to look like, very similar to zha, and northern shaolin long fist. The clips of hua I've seen from you guys doesn't usually look anything like this.

Well, don't ask me about history :D . The only hua clips from SD that I've seen on the net were out of Atlanta and they were or Hua #2 (I beleive). Our hua # 1 and # 2 start out the same. This form is Hua # 3. I haven't learned it yet, but it's the favorite of one of my teachers, so I see it often.

And MK, I'm not one to criticize one too bad (he reportedly took first at that tournement with that form). The guy's low stance is better than mine, but, as Sean said, we are taught to do these forms more athletically/dynamically. I feel like I've run a mile sprint after finishing one of these forms.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
And MK, I'm not one to criticize one too bad (he reportedly took first at that tournement with that form). The guy's low stance is better than mine, but, as Sean said, we are tught to do these forms more athletically/dynamically. Yeah, my low stance is worse than his, but my balance and power is much better. At any rate, he stumbled like 4 times. His competition must have blown.

ANYHOO....

NP,
That form looks similar to this Hua 2 on the Atlanta SD site.

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/avi/2ndHuaTrish_noaudio.avi

Except the SD chick is very choppy and more Karate-esque. She has no flow.

And to quote Parrapa the Rappa. "In the rain or in the snow. I've got the funky flow. So now, I've really got to go."


I feel like I've run a mile sprint after finishing one of these forms. That's long fist, for you.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
I thought your hua wasn't like THE northern hua.. this looks like the standard northern hua. Or at least what I understand it to look like, very similar to zha, and northern shaolin long fist. The clips of hua I've seen from you guys doesn't usually look anything like this.


That is the exact form that we do. It is either the 3rd or 4th book (road). Wow, that is the first time I have seen another school doing the same form. Wonder where they picked it up?

Yes, the low stances were nice but I have to agree that his form was pretty bad.

NP, as stated before...a lot of "our" clips are not very good representations.

I have tons of demos on tape if I knew how to convert them....any help? I have a web cam with a RCA plug that lets me run my camcorder to the comp. Is that connection fast enough or do i need a firewire card?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
I have tons of demos on tape if I knew how to convert them....any help? I have a web cam with a RCA plug that lets me run my camcorder to the comp. Is that connection fast enough or do i need a firewire card? If it is USB 2.0, it will work but you'll probably drop some frames here and there. Firewire is best.

I'm not sure how you'd hook an RCA plug into the computer? Do you have video In/Out ports or something?

[Judge Pen]

GT, PM sent.

[Golden Tiger]

No, i have an intel pro cam that has a RCA video port on it. It is then connected by USB 1 (too old for 2.0).

I might go ahead and get a fire wire card. they are pretty cheap these days.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
No, i have an intel pro cam that has a RCA video port on it. It is then connected by USB 1 (too old for 2.0).

I might go ahead and get a fire wire card. they are pretty cheap these days. USB 1 would not be good. :D

I got a firewire card off amazon for like $25 a year or two ago. The firewire cables are expensive, though. They usually don't come with the card.

[Jhapa]

I have a question for SD guys. i have noticed that some SD schools have changed there uniforms, now is this OKd by GM the or they just changed it on their own and how is affecting the relationship with GM the.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
That is the exact form that we do. It is either the 3rd or 4th book (road).

3rd Road...


Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Wow, that is the first time I have seen another school doing the same form.

Ummm...
Yang Taiji 64 == Cheng Man Ching's 37 ...
Chen 83 == Chen Fa ke's Xin Jia Lao Jia ....
Bagua == Jiang Rong Qiao's Mother Palm Set ...
Combined Form == Taiji 24...
Yang Mantis == Bung Bo ...
Tiger Crane == Hung Ga 4 Pillar Set ...

for examples ... :D



Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Wonder where they picked it up?

or vice versa... :eek:


Originally posted by Golden Tiger

I have tons of demos on tape if I knew how to convert them....any help? I have a web cam with a RCA plug that lets me run my camcorder to the comp. Is that connection fast enough or do i need a firewire card?

Firewire... definately firewire. If your camcorder is new enough, it should have a firewire jack on it. Buy a combo firewire/USB 2 card for your computer & have at it. With decent editing software & firewire, you should maintain almost 100% of your video frames.

[Golden Tiger]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sean_stonehart
3rd Road...



Ummm...
Yang Taiji 64 == Cheng Man Ching's 37 ...
Chen 83 == Chen Fa ke's Xin Jia Lao Jia ....
Bagua == Jiang Rong Qiao's Mother Palm Set ...
Combined Form == Taiji 24...
Yang Mantis == Bung Bo ...
Tiger Crane == Hung Ga 4 Pillar Set ...

Interesting. As for the vise versa, you never know I guess. I do know that the list above is quiet varried and one would think that you would have to visit many places to see it or even learn it. And that would take a lot of time. And a lot of this stuff was first taught in the early 70's and 80's. And he didn't travel a lot back then. hmmmm.....

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Jhapa
I have a question for SD guys. i have noticed that some SD schools have changed there uniforms, now is this OKd by GM the or they just changed it on their own and how is affecting the relationship with GM the.


Life is good...... Diversity is the spice of life. nuff said

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Jhapa
I have a question for SD guys. i have noticed that some SD schools have changed there uniforms, now is this OKd by GM the or they just changed it on their own and how is affecting the relationship with GM the.

Master Garry Mullins changed his uniforms about 4 years ago with Master Sin's permission. It apparently hasn't affected the relationship. . . . he still comes to our schools, gives tests and seminars, and he recently promoted Master Garry Mullins to 8th degree. Yeah, I think we are still in good with Grand Master The'.


Originally posted by Golden Tiger
And a lot of this stuff was first taught in the early 70's and 80's. And he didn't travel a lot back then. hmmmm.....

I have to take your word for it there, GT. I didn't start training until 1989.


Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Life is good...... Diversity is the spice of life. nuff said

I agree 100%.

[shen ku]

JP i am also a 3rd my teacher trained with yours alot in lexington and speeks very highly of him. I have seen him perform many times and was never let down. the uniform issue,well, i think there were more problems between the masters over that one than any with master sin. (you know egos are always an issue in anything that humans do) i wear a gi, its what i was taught?? what you wear looks great and i am sure feels great. hay we could all switch to flanal shirts and hiphop pants (but it would be hard to kick with your pants around your knees ha ha ha ) my only thing with uniforms is it kind of devids us, and i would like to see all the masters get past that and share more with each other. I know that your group and atlanta and master nance work really well together. i would love to see more of that!!
i talk with master nance every so often i he said that if i visited one of these schools that it would be ok to wear my gi. i feel i should wear a frogbutton uniform what is your opinion?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shen ku
JP i am also a 3rd my teacher trained with yours alot in lexington and speeks very highly of him. I have seen him perform many times and was never let down. the uniform issue,well, i think there were more problems between the masters over that one than any with master sin. (you know egos are always an issue in anything that humans do) i wear a gi, its what i was taught?? what you wear looks great and i am sure feels great. hay we could all switch to flanal shirts and hiphop pants (but it would be hard to kick with your pants around your knees ha ha ha ) my only thing with uniforms is it kind of devids us, and i would like to see all the masters get past that and share more with each other. I know that your group and atlanta and master nance work really well together. i would love to see more of that!!
i talk with master nance every so often i he said that if i visited one of these schools that it would be ok to wear my gi. i feel i should wear a frogbutton uniform what is your opinion?

Yeah, Master Nance is cool. I enjoyed his KAT seminar in May.

As for the uniforms, just check with the teacher. If I'm visiting a school that wears a gi, I'll dig out my old gi. When in Rome. . . , but you shouldn't have to buy a new top if you don't already have one.

And they are comfortable. . . .

[shen ku]

i took master nance's kat seminar at his school last july and i enjoyed it (i got to play around with him one on one alot ) i disagreed with him on a few things and he was like "thats great, your thinking for yourself" . me and him became joking buddies when he had to pull back in a bus window in tabit ( i was sick ) . so i feel pretty good talking with him ,
i have a few frogbutton uniforms just was not forsure if the ones you wear where different than normal?

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by shen ku
i me and him became joking buddies when he had to pull back in a bus window in tabit ( i was sick ) .

Chris??

[Brad]

Interesting. As for the vise versa, you never know I guess. I do know that the list above is quiet varried and one would think that you would have to visit many places to see it or even learn it. And that would take a lot of time. And a lot of this stuff was first taught in the early 70's and 80's. And he didn't travel a lot back then. hmmmm.....
A lot of this stuff has been in book form(or film) for quite awhile, just not available in English. When did you start with him, and when did you first witness people learning this stuff(or start learning it yourself)?

[Brad]

About uniforms...

For those of you SDers who are tired of the karate gis, check out http://www.jonieuniforms.com/ for some really kick @ss training uniforms. My friends can do all their tricks(jump kicks into splits, etc.) in those things, no problem, but they still have the "traditional" look. Super comfy just wearing around the house too.

[Brad]

I'm a little tired of talking about forms... so lets talk about basics. How does basic training work in your Shaolin-Do school? Do you guys have seperate sets of basic training for different styles?

[Wharg0ul]

thanx for the link, Brad. :)

I HATE wearing a Gi. Did I stress that enough?? H.A.T.E. wearing a Gi.

[shen ku]

hay sean_stonehart, OK your good with names and so you were on the 2001 china trip , any tip on how i would know you ? did you demo and what did you do if you did?

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by shen ku
hay sean_stonehart, OK your good with names and so you were on the 2001 china trip , any tip on how i would know you ? did you demo and what did you do if you did?

Yeah... I did the performance anxiety suffered version of Pick & Play... which turns out is a *******ized version of Zhao Yai.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Brad
About uniforms...

For those of you SDers who are tired of the karate gis, check out http://www.jonieuniforms.com/ for some really kick @ss training uniforms. My friends can do all their tricks(jump kicks into splits, etc.) in those things, no problem, but they still have the "traditional" look. Super comfy just wearing around the house too.

Jonie's goods are the best!!! Super comfy to wear, easy to get, custom made (each piece) & will last a while. Plus if you want something special & it's pretty close to what she already has in her catalog, there's no upcharging.

There is however a standing to return policy for any uniforms... so make sure that's what you want before you order it.

I recommend Jonie for any CMA uniform needs...

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Brad
A lot of this stuff has been in book form(or film) for quite awhile, just not available in English. When did you start with him, and when did you first witness people learning this stuff(or start learning it yourself)?

I started in 1976.

As for when the stuff was taught, I can't recall specific dates but I will do my best. Perhaps BM2 can help with some of the dates. My notes (4 6-in binders) don't list them.

Everything up to black belt (pre-15 new material) was out by the mid 70's. This includes Tai Chi (Yang 64), Classical Pa Kua, Tang Lang Chein and Hsing-I and I Chin Ching.

15 new material (3 White Cranes, 3 Birds, 5 directional palm, Connecting Fist, 2 Bo forms, Kwan Dao) came out early 80's. Most of them had been taught to Master's Leonard and Smith long before that. He refered to them by #'s and didn't give them names til they were released to everyone else.

Drunk Stuff- Early to mid 80's. Some of this was taught out by Master Hiang. (Begger, Crazy, Broad sword, 2-edge and so on)

Hua's (Roads 1-4) Not exactly sure when they were first taught but I got them mid 80's. (At the Sports Center on the converted Raquetball courts...flying drop kick on hardwood.....ouch)

Drunken Imortals- Late 80's although they must have been taught earlier to M. Leonard and Smith because I have an issue of BB mag. with them in it.

Spears- Mid 80's. Parking lot of the Sports Center.

Chain whip 7 and 9, Fire whip (rope dart), Mantis forms, Monkeys- early to mid 80's by Master Hiang.


Hua Chien, More of the Immortals, Drunken Spear, 2nd level Broad Sword...etc came around in 89-92 ish.

Meditation I ( Hou tien Chi, Shin Tien Chi, 5 animal Play, Pathways etc) mid 70's to early 80's



Again, all dates or time frames are approximate. I tried to remember where the material was taught (Buel Armory, Southland, Sports Center, current gym, Pre-Post brother split, Pre- post move to Cali).

[shen ku]

ya this hole time i thought that was you! i beleive we set next to each other on the plane ride back over the ocean? i remember that you talked alot about other arts then? i do hope that SD did give you something to walk away from us with (besides for what ever all the issues are or were ) ? and i hope you have had good MA experinces after leaving SD. with everything you say master sin has put together from here and there, i do have a ?? i have seen a paper that was put out i believe in the early 70s that my teacher has that layed out material and it had a _ _ _ _ load on it then and alot of the ??able "new" stuff was on it ( if i remember correctly) just how do you think he was able to gather it all back then? (not trying to be smart, just really wondering what your ideas were on that?)

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Brad
I'm a little tired of talking about forms... so lets talk about basics. How does basic training work in your Shaolin-Do school? Do you guys have seperate sets of basic training for different styles?

Back in the day, we always had a month or two of conditioning classes prior to learning the new form. Depending on the emphasis of the form, we would work on what was needed to be able to do it (stretching, weight vest training, cardio, etc). When a form was taught, Master Sin always gave out hand written notes that had the background, each posture in chinese, english and character.

Some examples:

Hua- about 3 months of stretching, weight training, TONS of kicks.

Drunken Immortals: flexibility training, gymnastics.

Spears: weeks of the basic moves with ankle weights on the end of the spear.

Unfortunately, the focus has shifted away from th pre-training and more on getting the material re-taught so that it won't be lost. Then with the new stuff, Master Sin first tried to include the conditioning part into the seminars but found that most of the "students" would drop before he even started teaching the form. Personally, I miss the days of having to prove that you could do the form before you got to see it but thats just me (and the fact that I am too old and worn out to do most of it).

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by shen ku
ya this hole time i thought that was you! i beleive we set next to each other on the plane ride back over the ocean? i remember that you talked alot about other arts then? i do hope that SD did give you something to walk away from us with (besides for what ever all the issues are or were ) ? and i hope you have had good MA experinces after leaving SD. with everything you say master sin has put together from here and there, i do have a ?? i have seen a paper that was put out i believe in the early 70s that my teacher has that layed out material and it had a _ _ _ _ load on it then and alot of the ??able "new" stuff was on it ( if i remember correctly) just how do you think he was able to gather it all back then? (not trying to be smart, just really wondering what your ideas were on that?)

Yeah we sat next to each other on the way back... You were one the people I enjoyed hanging with & meeting from Ky. Too bad about the trip back from the mountains that day. I remember seeing you when we got to the hotel & you not looking so good.

I did get some good things from SD. No denying that & no arguements. But I also got a bad taste in my mouth for lots of things & people because of it too.

As far as where the brothers got the stuff from... who can say? I've got my own ideas & assumptions, but they're just that & won't ever be anything more than that. But in looking & researching... talking to & meeting with people from China & on the Net... there's too many question marks about what's going on with SD & where all of the stuff comes from.

There are too many missing pieces & holes in the training regimines & pieces that aren't understood in application for my comfort level. Sure stuff can always be made up, but if the basics of a thing aren't understood properly, how can they be taught properly with the foundation application(s)?

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart
Yeah... I did the performance anxiety suffered version of Pick & Play... which turns out is a *******ized version of Zhao Yai.

So, I have to ask. What leads you to the conclusion that Pick and Play is a *******ized version of Zhao Yai (could you translate the name? my pinyin sucks).

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
So, I have to ask. What leads you to the conclusion that Pick and Play is a *******ized version of Zhao Yai (could you translate the name? my pinyin sucks).

Well the fact that another former SDer that had a hankering for Mantis sent a clip of himself doing to a guy in Taiwan that practices Mantis exclusively & the guy said it was a 4 road version of Zhao Yai (or maybe Zhai Yao... I forgot) instead of the 3 he was familiar with.

The guy in Taiwan sent a clip of another guy doing what he was familiar with & there it was. Again, it wasn't exactly the same as SD's version, but the SD version superficially resembled it.

I'll send a couple of PM's to clarify & I'll get back to you with the specific info.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Back in the day, we always had a month or two of conditioning classes prior to learning the new form. Depending on the emphasis of the form, we would work on what was needed to be able to do it (stretching, weight vest training, cardio, etc). When a form was taught, Master Sin always gave out hand written notes that had the background, each posture in chinese, english and character.

***

Unfortunately, the focus has shifted away from th pre-training and more on getting the material re-taught so that it won't be lost. Then with the new stuff, Master Sin first tried to include the conditioning part into the seminars but found that most of the "students" would drop before he even started teaching the form. Personally, I miss the days of having to prove that you could do the form before you got to see it but thats just me (and the fact that I am too old and worn out to do most of it).

My teacher is trying to get back to this. Most of the time, the pre-training is stuck in our drilling/conditioning part of class and most students dont' realize that they are actually training new skills for the forms they are about to learn. I worked on certain kicks, stances, and body-weight excercises for about a month before I got to the meat of my first hua form.

Accoring to Master Mullins, he worked on dao cuts for a couple of months before he learned the actual form. Now students get the form in, what 3 weeks?

[BM2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Golden Tiger
[B]I started in 1976.

15 new material (3 White Cranes, 3 Birds, 5 directional palm, Connecting Fist, 2 Bo forms, Kwan Dao) came out in 1983. The reason I was told by my instructor was to increase the time it took for BB.

Drunken Imortals-
This was 1985 after months of mandatory 4 hour outside conditioning including the winter without coats but I put on thermal underwear. 8-12 every Sunday morning. But we were out there exercising and Master Sin just had on a thin gi without a coat. He made me feel colder just looking at him. I suspect most of us had thermals on. Yeah, I'm a whimp.

Master Hiang left late 1984.

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
thanx for the link, Brad. :)

I HATE wearing a Gi. Did I stress that enough?? H.A.T.E. wearing a Gi.

I LOVE wearing a Gi. :) So I guess we balance out. Although I do hate how my belt comes undone ever 2nd or 3rd kata. Those Juka (Dragon) belts are crazy stiff. I've been sweating in mine for 2 years now and it still won't stay tied for an entire class! Am I asking for too much!?!?

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
So, I have to ask. What leads you to the conclusion that Pick and Play is a *******ized version of Zhao Yai (could you translate the name? my pinyin sucks).

GT... PMs were sent. Information is forthcoming later today.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by lxtruong
I LOVE wearing a Gi. :) So I guess we balance out. Although I do hate how my belt comes undone ever 2nd or 3rd kata. Those Juka (Dragon) belts are crazy stiff. I've been sweating in mine for 2 years now and it still won't stay tied for an entire class! Am I asking for too much!?!?

Switch to a sash. Sashes are cool. :cool:

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by BM2
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Golden Tiger
[B]I started in 1976.

15 new material (3 White Cranes, 3 Birds, 5 directional palm, Connecting Fist, 2 Bo forms, Kwan Dao) came out in 1983. The reason I was told by my instructor was to increase the time it took for BB.

Drunken Imortals-
This was 1985 after months of mandatory 4 hour outside conditioning including the winter without coats but I put on thermal underwear. 8-12 every Sunday morning. But we were out there exercising and Master Sin just had on a thin gi without a coat. He made me feel colder just looking at him. I suspect most of us had thermals on. Yeah, I'm a whimp.

Master Hiang left late 1984.

Looks like my time frames were pretty close then.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BM2
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Golden Tiger
[B]15 new material (3 White Cranes, 3 Birds, 5 directional palm, Connecting Fist, 2 Bo forms, Kwan Dao) came out in 1983. The reason I was told by my instructor was to increase the time it took for BB.


Too bad it hasn't done this. Now you get 15 new forms crammed in there instead of taking the time to learn each completely. I long for the days of less material.

[Golden Tiger]

I was just sitting here thinking about all the forms, notes, etc. that I have gotten over the years and to me, I just don't see a way that back then, he could have had the time or ability to "borrow" all the things that I have learned from him. Possible? yes. Probable? no Plus, there was never a real need for him to. For the longest time, he didn't teach anything and no one was really *****ing about it. We did what we knew and then would spar the rest of the time.

Also, as I pointed out, most of this material came out from 68-mid 80's. So while it is easy to track down a style or a form today with the web and such, back then, in the middle of nowhere (Lexington), I just don't think that it would have been that easy.

After seeing the clip yesterday of the Hua that the other school was doing, it made me wonder... If M. Sin "borrowed" that form, he would have had to find this school or someone in their lineage back in the early 80's. He then would have had to learn all 4 roads, get all the names of the postures (I think my notes are about 20 pages worth) learn all the background then be able to teach it. Then if that wasn't enough, do that for the rest of the 100 plus forms that I learned from him.

Today, thanks to Google, you might be able to do it...maybe but that indepth, I kinda doubt it. But again, when most of this stuff was first taught, we are talking the 70's and 80's here.

So, if you think the forms are *****ized, plagurized or midasized....I doubt that you will ever be convinced differently. I personally just don't see how it could have been done.

[Judge Pen]

Nice post, GT. Having you and BM2 around gives us a unique window into what SD was 25 years ago. Seeing how things were taught back then vs now etc.

I've seen our version vs other versions of several forms now. The main problem I see isn't the origins of the material, but the quality of instruction. Even good instructors don't take the time to teach all the nuances to all the forms we have. Background (not lineage and history per so, just the origin of the form and its effecacy) drills, applications, and sparring work from the form. Not that this is never done, but it seems it's getting more and more rare. Hence much of the criticism is warranted.

Brad: You mentioned technique. I have three questions regarding kicking? (1) how many kung fu styles include a side thrust kick (striking target is the heel of the foot and not the side edge of the foot)? (2) how many non-kung fu styles kick their hand with certain crecent and front kicks? (3) How many non-kung fu styles use a hit-kick (puncing and kicking at the same time; usually opposite hand and foot)?

[sean_stonehart]

Books.... ???

[Brad]

I've seen our version vs other versions of several forms now. The main problem I see isn't the origins of the material, but the quality of instruction. Even good instructors don't take the time to teach all the nuances to all the forms we have. Background (not lineage and history per so, just the origin of the form and its effecacy) drills, applications, and sparring work from the form. Not that this is never done, but it seems it's getting more and more rare. Hence much of the criticism is warranted.

Honestly, I don't see much difference when watching guys that have been around for years(like your master Mullins) and the people who still have videos up who're allways criticized so much. Maybe I missed something from the video, in which case I'd like to see the guy in person sometime(my aunt & uncle just moved to Nashville, so that could be a real possibility!).


Brad: You mentioned technique. I have three questions regarding kicking? (1) how many kung fu styles include a side thrust kick (striking target is the heel of the foot and not the side edge of the foot)? (2) how many non-kung fu styles kick their hand with certain crecent and front kicks? (3) How many non-kung fu styles use a hit-kick (puncing and kicking at the same time; usually opposite hand and foot)?
For one thing, if he were stealing forms from books, film, or other means, I'd imagine he'd pick up these obvious parts too. My first martial arts teacher picked up on all this too, and he turned out to be an even bigger fraud than Sin The will ever be :P I doubt we'll ever know the true origins of how he got his material though. As for how easy things were to obtain 25-30 years ago, I really can't say as I wasn't born until '79 ;) I asked for personal experience(rather than what people told you) just to get a clearer idea of what it really would've been like back then. I honestly don't trust some of these senior teachers after hearing some things from them...

Just thinking of something... if we really want to talk about Sin The's background, wouldn't the most logical place to start be his own book?

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Switch to a sash. Sashes are cool. :cool:

No offense, but I'll use rope and twine to tie closed my gi before I ever use a sash.

[BM2]

JP, heard that your instructor had taped Master Sin's colleague's group performing in Indonesia. Have you seen what they were wearing? From what I heard they did white crane, dao and Chen family fan. I'd love to have a copy of that.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart
Books.... ???

I assume this is in reference to my post.


Possible but not probable (IMO). You would have to memorize 100-ish books, word for word, be able to recite then in two languages, remember each picture and be able to recall them, in and out of order, be able to come up with applications and be able to teach it to someone else. That is just hard for me to imagine.

It would be like me picking up a calculus book, going thru the examples, being able to do the problems, being able to apply those examples to real life situations then being able to teach everything in the book from memory. Then picking up a anatomy book......

As aposed to going to college and spending a lot of time with an instructor and leaning it


Possible ........not saying it can't be done.....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
I assume this is in reference to my post.


Possible but not probable (IMO). You would have to memorize 100-ish books, word for word, be able to recite then in two languages, remember each picture and be able to recall them, in and out of order, be able to come up with applications and be able to teach it to someone else. That is just hard for me to imagine.

It would be like me picking up a calculus book, going thru the examples, being able to do the problems, being able to apply those examples to real life situations then being able to teach everything in the book from memory. Then picking up a anatomy book......

As aposed to going to college and spending a lot of time with an instructor and leaning it


Possible ........not saying it can't be done..... Yeah, I guess it would almost be like learning 900 forms. :eek:

Besides, everyone loooooooooooves to talk about Sin The's vast pile of notes. Perhaps he wrote everything down from the books, and goes back to his notes when he decides to teach it. You don't have to memorize it right away if you aren't going to teach it until 10 years later...

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Brad
Just thinking of something... if we really want to talk about Sin The's background, wouldn't the most logical place to start be his own book?

Rumor has it he's working on a movie....maybe that will clear some things up? ;)

[Brad]

You would have to memorize 100-ish books, word for word, be able to recite then in two languages, remember each picture and be able to recall them, in and out of order, be able to come up with applications and be able to teach it to someone else. That is just hard for me to imagine.
Why in the world would he have to learn them word for word and recite in two languages? Your really not making a lot of sense. It takes me about 30 minutes to memorize a medium length form. I wouldn't know all the little details, or look like masters of the style when performing, but it's surprisingly easy... and you don't need to even remember every single move... it's not like the people he's teaching are masters of this stuff before they start with him.

[Brad]

Rumor has it he's working on a movie....maybe that will clear some things up?
I don't think it's going to happen... that rumor seems pretty old :P

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Rumor has it he's working on a movie....maybe that will clear some things up? ;)
HAHAHAHAHAH.

You mean the movie where plays Ie Ching Men? From what I understand, he's been trying to get that made for like 15 years. It'll never happen. And if it does, it'll be about as good as TC-2000.

Of course, you'll hear SD people say "China gave him more money to make it than they gave Crouching Tiger..." and stupid retard nonsense like that.

That's the kind of shiznit that bugs me. All the misinformation you guys toss around between each other. It's a hoot. You can't even get they story straight INSIDE the organization.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by lxtruong
No offense, but I'll use rope and twine to tie closed my gi before I ever use a sash.

Don't knock it til you try it... besides my sash never comes untied no matter how hard I go.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

AND it holds your guts in place for those particularly difficult training sessions (unlike a belt, rope or twine).

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart
Don't knock it til you try it... besides my sash never comes untied no matter how hard I go.

Maybe you aren't going hard enough......j/k



Brad
Why in the world would he have to learn them word for word and recite in two languages?

When he teaches a form, he calles out the posture as he does it. So in essence, he is repeating anywhere from 30 to 128 postures verbatim, starting and stopping, as he goes. Thats usually about 4 pages worth.



It takes me about 30 minutes to memorize a medium length form. I wouldn't know all the little details, or look like masters of the style when performing, but it's surprisingly easy..[/B]

I am not sure what you consider to be medium but for me (and most that I have taught) the mind can handle (ie. learn, not memorize) about 7 to 10 items at a time.


But anyway, all this is just my opinion. To each their own....

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
AND it holds your guts in place for those particularly difficult training sessions (unlike a belt, rope or twine).


uhhh..thats called a corset.....


Belt...Sash...who cares?

And MK, at the big movie premier, I will have a ticket waiting for you. Hell, I might even spring for a large butter tub...extra butter

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Maybe you aren't going hard enough......j/k



Eh ... you ain't the first one to accuse me of that at times ... ;)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
uhhh..thats called a corset..... More like a kidney belt. That's what a sash is for, afterall.


And MK, at the big movie premier, I will have a ticket waiting for you. Hell, I might even spring for a large butter tub...extra butterWell, considering how crappy the movie will be, it will probably premiere in a seedy theatre in some porn district. In which case, I wouldn't order "extra butter" if I were you.

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
AND it holds your guts in place for those particularly difficult training sessions (unlike a belt, rope or twine).

Ok this is one thing I never understood. Now suppose you're doing some type of super-hard training where your in immenient danger of your guts "spilling out". How in the world is one piece of cloth (not even all that tightly tied) going to prevent this? Now even supposing that a sash can automagically keep your guts from falling out, why wouldn't a belt? They're tied at about the same place...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BM2
JP, heard that your instructor had taped Master Sin's colleague's group performing in Indonesia. Have you seen what they were wearing? From what I heard they did white crane, dao and Chen family fan. I'd love to have a copy of that.

I've never heard him reference a tape of this material. He mentions the Drunken Immortal master the most. I'll ask my teacher about what the colleagues were wearing and if they have it taped. It would be real interesting.


Originally posted by Brad
I'd like to see the guy in person sometime(my aunt & uncle just moved to Nashville, so that could be a real possibility!).

You're welcome to be my guest anytime. He doesn't often do demos on demand, but his tournament is in October or November and you can watch that if you want to make the trip. His class is about 4 hours away from Nashville. I live about 3 hours away from Nashville.


Originally posted by lxtruong
No offense, but I'll use rope and twine to tie closed my gi before I ever use a sash.

To each their own I guess. I didn't mind wearing a gi and a belt. I don't mind wearing a shas and frog buttons. Heck, I practice, more often than not, in jeans, shoes, and a T-shirt. If I can't move in street clothes, there's not much use practicing the technique.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
Ok this is one thing I never understood. Now suppose you're doing some type of super-hard training where your in immenient danger of your guts "spilling out". How in the world is one piece of cloth (not even all that tightly tied) going to prevent this? Now even supposing that a sash can automagically keep your guts from falling out, why wouldn't a belt? They're tied at about the same place... Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt.

Thank-you kung-fu Rainman! :)

[sean_stonehart]

Belt = 1 inch in width & used to keep kimono closed in Japan & Okinawa. Support was handled by interior garments much like a sash

Sash = varying widths & lengths. In old school pics were wrapped from near bottom of rib cage to upper pelvis/lower adbomen... in other words...

Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt. Kidney belt.

[lxtruong]

Ok, I'm certainly not knowledgable on the subject of kidney belts. All google has been able to inform me is that a lot of motorcross riders wear them. How tight are these things supposed to be. I see that most of them are made of some type of elastic/leather material. How much support do they have to give?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
Ok, I'm certainly not knowledgable on the subject of kidney belts. All google has been able to inform me is that a lot of motorcross riders wear them. How tight are these things supposed to be. I see that most of them are made of some type of elastic/leather material. How much support do they have to give? And why do motocross riders wear them, perchance? Because they keep your internal organs from jiggling around, which can cause some serious damage.** Especially to the kidneys.

You tie it tight, but not so tight you can't breathe. It's not a corsett. It's more like a knee-brace for your belly.


























**Your external organ may still jiggle.

[Golden Tiger]

I used to wear one when I raced MX years ago and yes, they kinda keep everything packed nice and tight but mainly they protect the back and kidneys (ie. Kidney Belt) from the compression and in the event of a wreck.

I do wonder what kind of training you are doing to need that kind of protection? I mean I have heard of just about every injury possible concerning MA training but I am yet to hear "got to sit this one out, guts busting out from last nights class, kidneys dropped like 'roids cause they weren't bound good and tight".:rolleyes:

The sashes look all kung fu and stuff, thats cool......

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
I used to wear one when I raced MX years ago and yes, they kinda keep everything packed nice and tight but mainly they protect the back and kidneys (ie. Kidney Belt) from the compression and in the event of a wreck.

I do wonder what kind of training you are doing to need that kind of protection? I mean I have heard of just about every injury possible concerning MA training but I am yet to hear "got to sit this one out, guts busting out from last nights class, kidneys dropped like 'roids cause they weren't bound good and tight".:rolleyes:

The sashes look all kung fu and stuff, thats cool......

Good Old Fashion Traditional Southern Chinese Martial Arts... ;)

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

You tie it tight, but not so tight you can't breathe. It's not a corsett.It's more like a knee-brace for your belly.

More like a girdle huh.......:D

( I swear, I crack myself up sometimes.....)


PS. Looking at my belly these days, I might be switching to the sash for cosmetic reasons.......

[MasterKiller]

Long Fist is like Moto-X without the bike. Think of your forms as whoop-de-doos.

[lxtruong]

You guys jump 40 ft. up in the air while doing Long Fist! Whoa!

[Starchaser107]

osu!
that was so funny
osu!:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
You guys jump 40 ft. up in the air while doing Long Fist! Whoa! Um....most whoop-de-doos aren't that high. They are usually a long, continuous row of speed bumps that bounce you around.

Anyway, the idea, right or wrong, is that the sash prevents possible damage to your internal organs from the high impact routines associated with normal kung fu practice.

And for the record, I always wear mine when I practice and I've never ruptured a kidney or a spleen. ;)

[lxtruong]

Ha. Forgive my smartassitude. I know nothing of Moto-X. :)

Anyway, I think I'll stick with the belt/sash serving the purpose of keeping your shirt from flapping around and not from saving your innards from jumping out. I don't know of any spleen ruptures and I figure that those with 20+ years experience would have some horror stories to tell if there were. Maybe they do iron spleen training when I'm not looking though.

[Judge Pen]

The way I see most sashes being used today, it's just cosmetic. I have a back brace velcro contraption that I wear if I strain my back that would work better. But, I have to agree with GT, you see lots of sports, like Basketball, cross country, football, gymnastics, etc. that don't wear any "internal organ" support and you don't generally hear of internal injury. Never did Moto-X though.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe that's why the average career of a professional athlete is 3 years.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Maybe that's why the average career of a professional athlete is 3 years.

I don't think their careers are cut short for kidney problems.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe internal injuries manifest in funny ways.

For example, I have a tiny hole in my diagphragm, and sometimes a little section of my stomach pops through it. It's called a hietal (sp?) hernia.

You know how it manifests? I can't move my right shoulder without extreme pain. That would surely inhibit a pro athelete. If it persists long enough, it might even end their career.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

Anyway, I'm just pulling stuff outta my @ss...

:D

[MasterKiller]

Zoiks! You're fast.

[Judge Pen]

My forum fu is strong today.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there some rudimentary weight training in the old days? Stone locks and such?

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Maybe that's why the average career of a professional athlete is 3 years.

3.3.. but who is counting....

Yeah, but look at their life spans...

[shen ku]

ha been off a little while , master sins brother did come back for a little while maybe around 86-88 and then split again. hay to some of the older SDers on here my teacher also talks about the background training and the months before getting to the form and how it was used. He really misses those days he has been around from ?about 71? he tryies to teach it in a very similar manner ( you train you tell you cant breath or walk and then ok lets start ha ha )
i was at the first mantis seminar that master sin did, it was crazy, so much stuff so little time
JP i remember seeing your teacher, he was eating it all up and asking for more. On the on peace of background training he got had it down and was looking at his son (mike, is he the oldest?) "like don't you have it yet!!!!" it was great

on ya belt/sash who cares it shouldn't be about what hold your guts in , your shirt closed, or your pants up just learn and enjoy

[shen ku]

sean_stonehart, can i ask about the bad tast that you said you were left with? i could only imagine the people part &%*#@$holes are everywhere nowadays. I would also like to know did you enjoy the trip? there were someparts i could have done with out ?? whos grave with nothing inside, who sleeped here and oh ya NO ONE WAS SHOOT IN THIS SQUARE!! oh ya and the bus in tebit

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by shen ku
sean_stonehart, can i ask about the bad tast that you said you were left with? i could only imagine the people part &%*#@$holes are everywhere nowadays. I would also like to know did you enjoy the trip? there were someparts i could have done with out ?? whos grave with nothing inside, who sleeped here and oh ya NO ONE WAS SHOOT IN THIS SQUARE!! oh ya and the bus in tebit

I think I'll hold on to who left the bad taste. No reason to stir unnecessary personal feelings up. Just suffice it to say I haven't lost sleep over any of them & doubt seriously I ever will.

The trip was fun. I wish there was more time with people rather than always go go go , but hey... it wasn't so bad. I'll be back soon enough.

The bus ride in Tibet... you were in back throwing up, me & several other were up front threatening the bus driver... ;) I haven't been up hills like that again but I did get up into the Nantahalia Nat'l Forest at the Ga/NC border & it kinda reminded me of it... minus the road work truck barrelling down on us in blind corners on single lane roads...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shen ku
ha been off a little while , master sins brother did come back for a little while maybe around 86-88 and then split again. hay to some of the older SDers on here my teacher also talks about the background training and the months before getting to the form and how it was used. He really misses those days he has been around from ?about 71? he tryies to teach it in a very similar manner ( you train you tell you cant breath or walk and then ok lets start ha ha )
i was at the first mantis seminar that master sin did, it was crazy, so much stuff so little time
JP i remember seeing your teacher, he was eating it all up and asking for more. On the on peace of background training he got had it down and was looking at his son (mike, is he the oldest?) "like don't you have it yet!!!!" it was great

on ya belt/sash who cares it shouldn't be about what hold your guts in , your shirt closed, or your pants up just learn and enjoy

Actually Mike is my personal teacher. I have class with Master Garry once or twice a month. I'm also glad to hear you mention the "reunion" of the brothers. That detail gets lost sometimes.

[Brad]

None of my classmates, coaches, or myself have ever had any kidney or similar internal injurey from not wearing a sash. None of the modern wushu athletes in China wear sashes either(except as deceration). I'm with Hua Lin Laoshi, that if they did have a practical purpose(other than holding pants up), it would've been more for wieghtlifting.

[BM2]

And MK, at the big movie premier, I will have a ticket waiting for you. Hell, I might even spring for a large butter tub...extra butter


Originally posted by MasterKiller
Well, considering how crappy the movie will be, it will probably premiere in a seedy theatre in some porn district. In which case, I wouldn't order "extra butter" if I were you. [/B]

MK, it sounded to me as you are going to be his date and he is offering to buy the butter, extra butter ...maybe to butter you up:eek: :o :D ;)

[Golden Tiger]

Note to self: Kick BM2's a$$.....

[shen ku]

on the movie. i was told this month that it is now scheduled to start shoting in june of this year, also i have been told , for a while now, that the script has changed to one that master sin and his daughter wrote, don't know much about the details just that it was loosely based around some of the stories ????

[shen ku]

JP i have been watching mike in tournaments since he was 16 and i have always liked his attitude. i hope his teaching matchs that, you should be having alot of fun

[Golden Tiger]

Hey shen ku,

Who's your instructor? Sounds like he has been around a long time, I might know him.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shen ku
JP i have been watching mike in tournaments since he was 16 and i have always liked his attitude. i hope his teaching matchs that, you should be having alot of fun

Mike's an excellent teacher. I probably wouldn't be training in SD if I hadn't ran into him in Knoxville.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by shen ku
on the movie. i was told this month that it is now scheduled to start shoting in june of this year, also i have been told , for a while now, that the script has changed to one that master sin and his daughter wrote, don't know much about the details just that it was loosely based around some of the stories ???? Keep dreaming.

LALALALALALALALALA Sin The' is the Grandmaster of all Shao-Lin LALALALALALALALLA

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Keep dreaming.

LALALALALALALALALA Sin The' is the Grandmaster of all Shao-Lin LALALALALALALALLA


oh ye of little faith.....

[BM2]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Note to self: Kick BM2's a$$.....

Man I am as surprised as anyone to see what MK wrote using my account! How did he access it? I am only happy to see by your reply that you could tell it was he who really wrote it and your just playing along!
Glad to clear that up!
Ummm... you forgot to use smiles on that post to let everyone else know that you were only kidding... You know ummm....you could maybe post something...you know for anyone else....that you are only kidding. :(

[Golden Tiger]

:mad: .....how's that?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
oh ye of little faith..... Well, like I said, on the off chance it does get made, it will be about as good as TC 2000.

If it were such a big deal, Premeire would have covered it already. And they didn't.

Can Sin The' pronounce "Straight to DVD"? If not, you better start teaching him how.

BTW, are they gonna CGI the scene where he swims with pecs, or is he gonna do his own stunts? :rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

Where did the "swin with pec's" come from?

And if they do get a stunt person for that scene, I suggest Eva Longoria*.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Where did the "swin with pec's" come from? Just another one of the stupid, retard things you hear from the SD camp. Sin The's pecs are so developed, he can apparently swim with them. Or at least he could when he was young.

Who knows where this stuff comes from? I think some of your instructors are so in love with Sin The' that they make this stuff up and pass it along to their students. I've seen it too much, from too many different n00bs to think it was just some overzealous kid. They are hearing it from someone.

And when you 'official' story has just as much retard nonsense, anyway, I figure it's coming from pretty high up.

How many times have we had to school n00bs about the steele here...? And you should hear the variations. Once we squelched the ol' Shaolin built a monument to The' because of his contribution to Shaolin retard nonsense, the story evolved. On the old Mullins forum, you know, the one that wasn't secret-squirrel fortified, someone said that the temple was going to donate the steele, but since the Soards wanted the finest Marble possible, they had to pay for it. I mean...where did that crap come from????

Sin The' can climb a pole like snake, with no hands or feet...?

Sin The' developed psychic powers and he knows who is calling before be picks up the phone...?

It's your organization. Maybe you can step up and stop the retard stories. All they do is fan the flames.