Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BentMonk]

Yes, Joe did an excellent Job with the Ground Dragon.....that was filmed at the tourney last fall....he took a few medals both empty hand and with weapons. His girlfriend is very good too...I tested with her last fall.

Bent, I'll see ya Saturday......are you taking the Yin side of Meteor Fist on Sunday.:DBQ

I'll be there all day Sat. As always I'll be competing. This will be my son's first tournament. He's a blue belt. I'm looking forward to it. I was unable to to attend the first Golden Leopard so...:( If I'm lucky it'll come 'round again.

[BentMonk]

i observed sm price teaching and had a brief conversation with him, he has a very humble and laid back approach to teaching i really liked him and the way he communicates with his students ... i had the chance to workout with one of his top students and found him to be a very good martial artist and teacher. he helped me a lot with my hsing i concepts ... i also observed him taking his own class and was impressed with his performance and understanding of the material.


It was great to meet you Bruce. You're a class act sir. The advice you gave me about not over extending myself, and trying to stay more rooted, has helped my sparring. Thanks.

[brucereiter]

It was great to meet you Bruce. You're a class act sir. The advice you gave me about not over extending myself, and trying to stay more rooted, has helped my sparring. Thanks.

hi paul,

the pleasure was mine. you are a inspiring person. keep up the hard work and continue to search for what works for you.

best,

bruce

[kwaichang]

SDIC I feel the 3 body stance of yours is not forming the "triangles " necessary to be call San Te Tsu or 3 body stance do you have the notes on forming the 3 body stance as it relates to the legs hand positioning etc ???? PM me if you dont KC

[brucereiter]

SDIC I feel the 3 body stance of yours is not forming the "triangles " necessary to be call San Te Tsu or 3 body stance do you have the notes on forming the 3 body stance as it relates to the legs hand positioning etc ???? PM me if you dont KC

hi k.c.,

thanks man ... this is what i am looking for! discussion about the material and how to understand it better ... i do not have the notes you are talking about but have read a bit about the subject. please explain more about the "triangle".

any other observations would be great to hear ...

best,

bruce

p.s. please note with the videos i put up i only intent to show my current understanding and do not intend to say "this is how it should be" or what ever ...

[kwaichang]

I will PM you what the notes say about it.. KC

[Toby]

do any non sd people out their want to post a video of them or their teachers doing there stuff? if not, why?I don't own a video camera nor have the inclination to film myself for others. I'd be interested in knowing how I look but I train for myself. I guess it could be a good training tool, though, to record and review your progress.


so many are critical of the way people in our system perform and understand the material but i have not been able to see if they the critics are held the the very high standards non sd people hold us too.I always thought the problem with SD wasn't the stuff you do, it was the curriculum and the claims. E.g. I practice 2 styles that both take years if not a lifetime to perfect, yet those styles are listed as stepping stones between grades in the SD curriculum. Personally I don't see how that's possible, unless the learning of those arts is substandard in the SD curriculum.

As an example, I stand in san ti for 10min a day. It's a tradeoff. Sometimes I think I could spend the time better doing other things, but sometimes I wish I had more time for san ti because I learn so much about structure just standing there correcting myself and feeling what's happening. With my limited curriculum, there's not really that much else to study and I'm still short on time. If I had dozens of different styles to do I honestly don't think I'd cover anywhere near enough of what I want. Already my training lacks in some areas. How can the average SD practitioner master many whole styles (sometimes per grading level) when I struggle to allocate time to 2 styles?


i have heard almost no critique of the videos i have presented. what do non sd people think? and why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x6er4aobuc
Hands: the back hand isn't as in balance with the front. Seems it just comes back without the same intent. Also, we train that the "back" hand doesn't come back, it's forward and down. Always forward intent in hsing i. Which brings me onto:

Intent: why do you lift the front foot and weight the back foot at the start of each strike? Your intent goes backwards. We don't step like you, but I guess you're trying to "fall" forwards? In that case, you can still bring the foot back (although I don't understand the purpose behind that) without bringing the centre back. But in the video I clearly see your centre going backwards each time. My limited understanding of hsing i we always have forward intent. Never going backwards.

Structure: I mentioned this once before. We do it differently than what I've seen on any video, so take it with a grain of salt. But ours looks very different to yours. All I'll say is no corners.

Fa jing: for want of a different word. Your strikes bounce a great deal, some more than others. Again, we don't train like that. Forward, always forward. Not so much bouncing.

Thanks though. I appreciate others' videos, even though as mentioned I don't contribute my own. I like your contributions, irrespective of the SD arguments. I also like that you seem interested in "internal" arts. Ever thought of concentrating on them? I.e. dropping the rest of the SD curriculum and/or going to a pure internal school?

[kwaichang]

What you mentioned is how I was taught. Likewise the purpose of the Material ie: Hsing Ie for 2-3rd Black is not meant to be memorized and forgotten before the next test it is to be practiced and Mastered over time " a life time" I guess or I should say I feel. KC

[Toby]

Yeah, I understand that. I just don't get how my plate is overflowing with 2 styles how you guys can consider yourselves to know so many different styles well enough to get to a level where you understand them properly. That's a rhetorical question, you don't have to answer. I know it's been addressed before i.e. you choose to specialise in certain styles once you reach a certain level. I'm just overwhelmed by the amount of material in the system. I mean, it's like it's swallowed up whole styles as stepping stones in the curriculum, arts that other people study individually for a lifetime. It's hard for me to believe someone will ever be able to learn those styles properly.

[brucereiter]

I always thought the problem with SD wasn't the stuff you do, it was the curriculum and the claims. E.g. I practice 2 styles that both take years if not a lifetime to perfect, yet those styles are listed as stepping stones between grades in the SD curriculum. Personally I don't see how that's possible, unless the learning of those arts is substandard in the SD curriculum.

As an example, I stand in san ti for 10min a day. It's a tradeoff. Sometimes I think I could spend the time better doing other things, but sometimes I wish I had more time for san ti because I learn so much about structure just standing there correcting myself and feeling what's happening. With my limited curriculum, there's not really that much else to study and I'm still short on time. If I had dozens of different styles to do I honestly don't think I'd cover anywhere near enough of what I want. Already my training lacks in some areas. How can the average SD practitioner master many whole styles (sometimes per grading level) when I struggle to allocate time to 2 styles?


hi toby,

thanks for taking the time to address some of my questions ...

my original reason for posting any video was in response to several posts about how all sd is "fake" and no one in sd has any understanding of any ima and their tai chi looks like karate. i found those comment a bit off base and did not feel it was true so made a few clips. my intention was to show some ima i have learned in sd.

as a matter of fact i think some in sd do not want people making videos like that but i felt the need to share what i do so there it is ...

my opinion is it is silly to think any student can "master" whole styles as you phrase it between grading levels ... my opinion is a hard working student in time can gain mastery over more than one thing but it depends on how hard you work.
i have chosen to focus the majority of my training time to yang tai chi chuan ...

the things you point out are a valid danger.
my teacher related a story to me a while back about the amount of time spent on each thing and he was told by gmt spend this much time on this and that much time on that and before you know it you would have to practice 24/7 to do everything ... from his story i got the idea that you must make only a few things a priority for you to "really" practice and the rest of it may serve to help you but might not be you thing and you may not be an "expert" at everything, but it may be a good idea to be exposed to many things and focus on one thing ... this is what i got out of his story, it might not have been his intention but that is what i heard ...


i do not do dozens of styles ...

i practice yang tai chi chuan every day since i started learning in 1997
yang tai chi chuan is really the thing i would say i "understand"

i practice chen xin jia tai chi chuan and chen iron fan since 1998

(my first 3 1/2-4 years i only learned 2 forms + various chi kung)

i practice "classical pakua chang" aka jiang rong qaio's original form maybe i started in 2002

2004 i learned yin / yang dagger

2006 to present i started learning 8 animal pakua i am still working hard to understand this one ...
2006 i learned yang dao (broadsword) form (i am not very got at it ... lol ...)
i started learning hsing i mid 2004

i also practice various chi kung and meditation practices

then there are a few short forms but that is it ... i for sure could just learn yang tai chi chuan and not expose myself to other things but i think it has been to my benefit to be exposed to several things ...



Hands: the back hand isn't as in balance with the front. Seems it just comes back without the same intent. Also, we train that the "back" hand doesn't come back, it's forward and down. Always forward intent in hsing i. Which brings me onto:

i agree ....



Intent: why do you lift the front foot and weight the back foot at the start of each strike? Your intent goes backwards. We don't step like you, but I guess you're trying to "fall" forwards? In that case, you can still bring the foot back (although I don't understand the purpose behind that) without bringing the centre back. But in the video I clearly see your centre going backwards each time. My limited understanding of hsing i we always have forward intent. Never going backwards.

the "foot" thing i guess is how i interpreted what i was taught, i really do not have a great reason for doing that ... although i have seen other systems use that approach.
as i practice i will have to look at how my weight shifts and see what i come up with.



Structure: I mentioned this once before. We do it differently than what I've seen on any video, so take it with a grain of salt. But ours looks very different to yours. All I'll say is no corners.
elaborate on the "corners"



Fa jing: for want of a different word. Your strikes bounce a great deal, some more than others. Again, we don't train like that. Forward, always forward. Not so much bouncing.


i agree it could/maybe should be more "crisp" i think might be the word.



Thanks though. I appreciate others' videos, even though as mentioned I don't contribute my own. I like your contributions, irrespective of the SD arguments. I also like that you seem interested in "internal" arts. Ever thought of concentrating on them? I.e. dropping the rest of the SD curriculum and/or going to a pure internal school?

i am very interested in ima . i am part of the "internal program" and have never studied the external side of shaolin do. so i do not have a "rest" of the curriculum to drop ... as far as leaving my school i really do love where i am at so i do not think that is going to happen.

regarding "pure internal school" i travel at least 6 months per year for many years now for my work ... i have and will continue to visit any ima school that will welcome me. i have been exposed to some of the best and to lots of crap ranging from "name" lineage holders to old dudes in that park and everywhere in between ... this experience of exchanging with so many people has really affirmed and made me value what i have right here as well as brought up lots of questions about some of what i have.

best,

bruce

[brucereiter]

It's hard for me to believe someone will ever be able to learn those styles properly.

i dont think any person can learn everything this system has to offer and be an expert in all facets of it ...

[Toby]

... i have chosen to focus the majority of my training time to yang tai chi chuan ...

...

... i for sure could just learn yang tai chi chuan and not expose myself to other things but i think it has been to my benefit to be exposed to several things ...

...

am very interested in ima . i am part of the "internal program" and have never studied the external side of shaolin do. so i do not have a "rest" of the curriculum to drop ... as far as leaving my school i really do love where i am at so i do not think that is going to happen.Fair enough. I guess I just wonder how one school can teach a specialised internal program + all the other stuff. Like are there several teachers, each specialising in something different? And then if one day you teach yourself, how can you be a SD teacher when you haven't done a whole bunch of the official program? Or would you not call yourself a SD teacher?


the "foot" thing i guess is how i interpreted what i was taught, i really do not have a great reason for doing that ... although i have seen other systems use that approach.
as i practice i will have to look at how my weight shifts and see what i come up with.Well, I can see an application in plucking the front foot of an opponent, but not in that place in beng, right before stepping and striking. I can say that you could do this "absorbing step" without backwards intent, but it's not easy and requires a fair amount of work/practice. On the plus side it would be good practice i.e. it would reinforce some particularly good habits and structure (I can't do it as often as I'd like but when I do it certainly feels right and powerful and dangerous - like I'm a D11).


elaborate on the "corners"Didn't I say "all I'll say is ..." :D. The body is loaded like a compound bow. Nothing straight, everything's a curve. Curves in the arms, legs, back, shoulders. Curves in many directions. Curves are structurally stronger.


regarding "pure internal school" i travel at least 6 months per year for many years now for my work ... i have and will continue to visit any ima school that will welcome me. i have been exposed to some of the best and to lots of crap ranging from "name" lineage holders to old dudes in that park and everywhere in between ... this experience of exchanging with so many people has really affirmed and made me value what i have right here as well as brought up lots of questions about some of what i have.I'm surprised that people give out stuff like that. E.g. at my school it usually takes a while to show you are ready before you are given stuff. OTOH if you are ready nothing's held back. But it'd be highly unusual for someone just to come in for the first time and get advanced material.

You kind of intrigue me. I'm kinda surprised that you're with SD since you don't seem like the typical SD student. The typical SD student (no offence atypical students) in my mind will always be themeecer :D. That was a blast from the past when his name was recently dug up. I'm surprised that you don't seek out a school that specialises in what you're interested in. Maybe there are none around, or maybe it's just inertia, or maybe you just like your school. Whatever, good luck on your journey. I'll continue to enjoy any videos you decide to present.

[brucereiter]

Fair enough. I guess I just wonder how one school can teach a specialised internal program + all the other stuff. Like are there several teachers, each specialising in something different? And then if one day you teach yourself, how can you be a SD teacher when you haven't done a whole bunch of the official program? Or would you not call yourself a SD teacher?

there are several teachers all with their own strength and weakness at the atlanta schools ...
i am "certified" by sr master grooms to teach the internal program. the certs last for 2 years and then are reissued or not ... when my teacher decides i am ready i will be told to teach more.

i mainly teach tai chi chuan/push hands/usage.




I'm surprised that people give out stuff like that. E.g. at my school it usually takes a while to show you are ready before you are given stuff. OTOH if you are ready nothing's held back. But it'd be highly unusual for someone just to come in for the first time and get advanced material.

i think i am one of very few students who go to level one class still (although many times i am now teaching it) all student have this chance but for example after the 6 months spent learning the basics of yang tai chi chuan and related chi kung and a intro to push hands and applying the art very few people ever come back to refine and learn more. that is their own problem not mine as it is offered to everyone ...
i wish more students would dig in. and not just collect forms but it is their choice.



You kind of intrigue me. I'm kinda surprised that you're with SD since you don't seem like the typical SD student. The typical SD student (no offence atypical students) in my mind will always be themeecer :D. That was a blast from the past when his name was recently dug up. I'm surprised that you don't seek out a school that specialises in what you're interested in. Maybe there are none around, or maybe it's just inertia, or maybe you just like your school. Whatever, good luck on your journey. I'll continue to enjoy any videos you decide to present.
thanks:-)

i do like my school and my teachers all of them have different things to offer.
when i first started looking for a school i was looking for tai chi chuan, i had never heard of pakua or hsing i etc all i knew is tai chi was some type of kung fu where you use your structure instead of strenght and it seemed like something that could be practiced into old age ... every school i visited here in atlanta that taught tai chi chuan did not spar/fight and only did a few push hands drills as far as i could see. since i have started my training i have met a few fantastic tai chi chuan people here in atlanta. who i think can apply the martial art tai chi chuan.

each sunday since 1999 (when i am not traveling) i meet a open group (2-10 people on average)where any one is welcome and we do push hands and spar etc ... through this i was able to meet and touch many people from many styles ... and i learned a lot about what my teachers have taught me and how to apply it on people who practice other things.

thanks again for taking the time to post here ...

best,

bruce

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, I understand that. I just don't get how my plate is overflowing with 2 styles how you guys can consider yourselves to know so many different styles well enough to get to a level where you understand them properly. That's a rhetorical question, you don't have to answer. I know it's been addressed before i.e. you choose to specialise in certain styles once you reach a certain level. I'm just overwhelmed by the amount of material in the system. I mean, it's like it's swallowed up whole styles as stepping stones in the curriculum, arts that other people study individually for a lifetime. It's hard for me to believe someone will ever be able to learn those styles properly.


Simple answer: we can't--at least not at first. Eventually, if we are to "master" a specific style that we are taught, I believe that we must make the personal choice to stop and really focus on that material--the same as you. Now this begs all kinds of other questions about how to do that, but I think it can be done by those with the intent and the will, but all too often students in SD are just happy to keep learning the new material available and not stop and focus on what really fits them personally. The exceptions are those that many in SD respect for their mastery of a certain area. Like Master Smith, Master Green, Master Leonard, Master Mullins etc. In fact, I've been told that many of the Elder masters in SD have privately narrowed their focus into a specific area and many of them have sought as much knowledge as they could from inside and outside of the system to help their understanding and to get a full perspective on what they have been taught. SDIC is another example of a non-Master who is training in a specific area and focusing on that area. He is an exception among most of the SD students out there, though.

[Mas Judt]

I guess the question is - if you can't 'learn it all' and have to focus... how do you become a teacher who offers to 'teach it all' - how can you trust your teachers to know 'all of it' so you CAN focus on the parts you want?

It all seems just silly to me. Like the Green Dragon guys in Ohio offering a million forms on tape, yet most of them are just so devoid of the stylistic trademarks of each system that they are almost unrecognizable.

[Judge Pen]

I guess the question is - if you can't 'learn it all' and have to focus... how do you become a teacher who offers to 'teach it all' - how can you trust your teachers to know 'all of it' so you CAN focus on the parts you want?

It all seems just silly to me. Like the Green Dragon guys in Ohio offering a million forms on tape, yet most of them are just so devoid of the stylistic trademarks of each system that they are almost unrecognizable.

If you have a good teacher that has taken the time to focus on the areas that he is teaching, then you can trust their teaching in those areas. If not, then you get bad examples of forms on the internet. Regardless, eventually, its up to the individual to police themselves and make themselves better regardless of the instruction.

There are teachers out there that have attained a high level of profficeincy in the diverse areas and are excellent "all around" SD teachers--who take the time to teach the underlying training methods for each form, who don't push their students to learn too much too fast and who stress the principles of each style and not just another set of postures and stances. And there are others that don't. But that teacher will not be as good at any one particular style as a person who has trained for the same amount of time in that one style exclusively.

Even in the example of the SD teacher who is good at everything all the way around, the material does bleed over and look similar. The flavor can be lost and muddled--which is why many masters go back and focus on particular areas that interested them more than others.

A typical SD student is not unlike the student that cross-trains for years in different styles and reaches intermediate levels in each of them, but never masters any of them. That person can be a helluva martial artist and fighter, and speak intelligently about many different areas of kung fu and even be a decent teacher of the bit of mantis, tai chi, CLF etc. (for example) that he did learn, but he will not be as good as he could be if he stayed in the one area (say mantis) for life.

I'm sure we can cite examples of many well-respected masters that trained in a couple of other areas prior to settling into the art that they are most known for. I would wager that they are still proficient and could still teach the arts that they studied before finding their true calling--just not as well as those that stayed in that art.

[bodhi warrior]

What ever happened to EM Eric Smith? He is one of the most respected masters in SD and he seems to have fallen off the face of the planet. Does anyone know what he's up to, or why he moved, etc. Just curious, as he was one of my fav masters in the system.

[Baqualin]

What ever happened to EM Eric Smith? He is one of the most respected masters in SD and he seems to have fallen off the face of the planet. Does anyone know what he's up to, or why he moved, etc. Just curious, as he was one of my fav masters in the system.

He's settled in Mich. now, his work took him there....he will be in this weekend for the seminar and is still big buddies with EML....he mainly teaches privately;)...will push hands with you anywhere anytime:)
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

Sup guys....check this out:



http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=12674896

Anyone recognize these forms or their origin? The ones the kids are doing (poorly) begin and have traits veeeery similar to our 3 birds. The second form begins just like 2nd bird (basically, anyways) and has some similar traits. I'm not talking brother/sister, so much as cousins here in relations. But it's hard not to see the similarities. Can anyone read the intro's language, or pinpoint origin and influence?


Disregard the karate gi's. That has to be a coincidence....LOL.....:D

Vietnamese?

Edit: it's the sections with the middle aged students and the teenage ones, halfway through vid.

Watched it a couple of times now....there has to be some kind of connection.....but the only word I can understand from the intro is "Shaolin"....LOL........

I'd ask this kid who posted it, but I set up my myspace page like 2 years ago at my girlfriend's request, then never used it again......so I don't even know how to login....hahaha.....

[sean_stonehart]

It's Vietnamese.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Don't suppose you've got a ken of Vietnamese, d'ya?

[Judge Pen]

Sup guys....check this out:



http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=12674896



I'll check it out later (we're Myspace banned at work).

[sean_stonehart]

Don't suppose you've got a ken of Vietnamese, d'ya?

Nope... except on how to order Pho.

[Leto]

Sup guys....check this out:



http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=12674896

Anyone recognize these forms or their origin? The ones the kids are doing (poorly) begin and have traits veeeery similar to our 3 birds. The second form begins just like 2nd bird (basically, anyways) and has some similar traits. I'm not talking brother/sister, so much as cousins here in relations. But it's hard not to see the similarities. Can anyone read the intro's language, or pinpoint origin and influence?
.

Google, my friend. :) Thieu Lam, That Son, Bieu Dien, Vo Thuat

Thieu Lam is the Vietnamese way of saying shaolin. "That Son" is the name of a mountain range in Vietnam. Bieu Dien seem to mean presentation or peformance...demonstation(online dictionary).
Vo Thuat is a generic term for martial arts in Vietnamese.

So the style would be Thieu Lam style from That Son mountains. There seems to be Vietnamese schools of various southern Chinese styles all which use Thieu Lam in their name (just from looking at the signs at the beginning of the video we can se that, there is a Hong Quyen and Ving xuan quyen. )
Here's one example http://www.vietanhmon.org/inglese_file/thieulam.htm

I do see the similarity to the bird forms in there, and it confirms my belief those forms are from or related to a southern "long fist" style. Or who knows...maybe GM Ie or Gm The got them from a Vietnamese shaolin school?

[bodhi warrior]

My understanding is that the bird forms were created by GMS. Not the cranes but the birds at brown belt level.

[tattooedmonk]

My understanding is that the bird forms were created by GMS. Not the cranes but the birds at brown belt level.This is one of the problems as I see it within the System. I was taught over 15 years ago that they were some of the oldest forms in our collection. The history of these forms should be documented and taught at the time of the instruction of the forms so there is no misunderstanding, misinformation perpetuated and the watering down of material.

[tattooedmonk]

Nope... except on how to order Pho.I used to go to this place here in LA ( San Fernando Valley)with Master Sin ( and students of the school) called Pho So #1 . This place kicks @$$. Do you get beef , pork, or shrimp in yours?? I like it relly hot . That Vietnamese hot sauce is the bomb!:eek::D:cool:

[Leto]

My understanding is that the bird forms were created by GMS. Not the cranes but the birds at brown belt level.

Who told you that? I'm not saying it isn't true, I just wonder, since there is such a huge difference in stories. Can baqualin or KC or any of the long-timers verify that? I'm sure the definitive answer is, as is mostly the case, "He started teaching it one day. He didn't tell us where it came from, and we didn't ask, so no one knows."

Whether he created them or not, it has southern elements. The truth might be in between, as is so often the case, like having made heavy modifications to forms seen or learned somewhere.

This is what on SD site says about it
"The bird styles of Shaolin were made famous at the Omei Temple. The original style, the Shaolin Bird, was a conglomerate system - the Tai Peng system – combining the natures of many birds into one system, blending balance and grace with powerful leg and hand techniques. Out of the Omei Temple evolved the famous White Crane system, with its rapid leg attacks, open finger techniques and the infighting of Wing Chun. From this same system came the legendary Eagle Claw system with its deadly hands and flying techniques. Over the centuries new styles with specific techniques were brought into the Omei system, styles such as the Black Crane, the Phoenix, the Swallow, and the Golden **** or Chicken." from http://sdlouisville.com/brochure.htm

The only reference besides SD that I can find with the term "shaolin bird" is from a book by Villari, written in 1986, where he lists various animal styles from shaolin. The list is suspiciously similar to the one propagated by SD (with 10,000 bees and golden centipede, coming from various temples) So where did this info come from? What document or person provided this information originally, I wonder?

"Shaolin Bird style is one of the older fighting styles, being derived from the very old Lo Han style by way of the later China Hand style that seems to form the basis of much of the familiar Korean and Okinawan styles. (Many of the movements in Okinawan karate and such styles as Tang Soo Do closely resemble movements in China Hand and Shaolin Bird styles).

In Shaolin Bird style the hard, linear strikes and kicks of Lo-Han and China Hand first begin to acquire some of the circularity and fluidity that is characteristic of many later Chinese styles.

The strategic assumption is Shaolin Bird style is that the opponent is larger and stronger. The Bird stylist compensates by leaping in to deliver a flurry of strikes, and then leaping back out of range; or, again, by goading the opponent into a charge and sidestepping while striking. Bird style relies on quick transitions between low and high attacks and stances, sudden reversals of direction, long-range jumps to cover ground quickly, and well-developed stamina. Bird forms emphasize elbows and finger thrusts to soft targets."

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/animals.html

What is the truth of the "shaolin bird"? Did Villari ever learn from Sin The, or hang out with him?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Who told you that? I'm not saying it isn't true, I just wonder, since there is such a huge difference in stories. Can baqualin or KC or any of the long-timers verify that? I'm sure the definitive answer is, as is mostly the case, "He started teaching it one day. He didn't tell us where it came from, and we didn't ask, so no one knows."

Whether he created them or not, it has southern elements. The truth might be in between, as is so often the case, like having made heavy modifications to forms seen or learned somewhere.

This is what on SD site says about it
"The bird styles of Shaolin were made famous at the Omei Temple. The original style, the Shaolin Bird, was a conglomerate system - the Tai Peng system – combining the natures of many birds into one system, blending balance and grace with powerful leg and hand techniques. Out of the Omei Temple evolved the famous White Crane system, with its rapid leg attacks, open finger techniques and the infighting of Wing Chun. From this same system came the legendary Eagle Claw system with its deadly hands and flying techniques. Over the centuries new styles with specific techniques were brought into the Omei system, styles such as the Black Crane, the Phoenix, the Swallow, and the Golden **** or Chicken." from http://sdlouisville.com/brochure.htm

The only reference besides SD that I can find with the term "shaolin bird" is from a book by Villari, written in 1986, where he lists various animal styles from shaolin. The list is suspiciously similar to the one propagated by SD (with 10,000 bees and golden centipede, coming from various temples) So where did this info come from? What document or person provided this information originally, I wonder?

"Shaolin Bird style is one of the older fighting styles, being derived from the very old Lo Han style by way of the later China Hand style that seems to form the basis of much of the familiar Korean and Okinawan styles. (Many of the movements in Okinawan karate and such styles as Tang Soo Do closely resemble movements in China Hand and Shaolin Bird styles).

In Shaolin Bird style the hard, linear strikes and kicks of Lo-Han and China Hand first begin to acquire some of the circularity and fluidity that is characteristic of many later Chinese styles.

The strategic assumption is Shaolin Bird style is that the opponent is larger and stronger. The Bird stylist compensates by leaping in to deliver a flurry of strikes, and then leaping back out of range; or, again, by goading the opponent into a charge and sidestepping while striking. Bird style relies on quick transitions between low and high attacks and stances, sudden reversals of direction, long-range jumps to cover ground quickly, and well-developed stamina. Bird forms emphasize elbows and finger thrusts to soft targets."

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/animals.html

What is the truth of the "shaolin bird"? Did Villari ever learn from Sin The, or hang out with him?

If you look at their forms and other stuff, it seems to hint heavily at "no". I've seen the SD list of temples and stuff repeated variously on several websites, and always suspect they're just copying them out of the book (especially when you look at the dates of the sites). But who knows.....? Sounds like the description of the birds. How bout asking one of those ex-Vilari guys?

Just wondering....are you guys not seeing direct movements in that Vietnamese vid w/ our birds? In a couple places, if you substitute a push w/ a finger thrust, you get the same thing, and entire sequences almost copied move-for-move, and they seem to do a forward sidehand strike (kind of like the result of a flourish in a short form), rather than the elbow finger thrust, and their footwork for the retreat is slightly more linear than our jumping retreat into a broken leg, but they're all the same movements, and have the same flavor. Not to mention the rampant use of elbows at one point in the form, and all the circle blocking. Hell, the salute/bow before the second form, which correlates to "Second Bird", has the same distinction as those hand motions in the "bird bows" left hand fist, right hand open (only, theirs are both open). And the jumping intro to the "second bird" parallel is the same thing, only varying in count, and where the pushes/finger thrusts occur.

It's not even a case of imagination, or imprinting something onto something else. I saw the vid and was like.......hey.......that's the birds, no dobut about it.

I mean, if we're going to contend that GMS made them up based on some stuff he knew, we'd have to say he just filled in some gaps in something that was already there. He was building on something.

I just think it's one of those outside influences, or something. Some kind of Vietnamese interpretation of "Shaolin" influencing part of our art. Or maybe just Little Saigon, CA.....LOL....

[Shaolin Wookie]

I would say, just for the elements of structure, tempo, striking, and general floorplan usage of the forms, (although their stances were kind of, by our standards, bad [but that might not be their focus]), theirs look remarkably similar to ours.

Would be interesting to pinpoint this school, and find more vids for comparison.

[Leto]

I don't think the material is actually in or from kempo. I just wonder what book everyone got their information from, or who passed that down. Is everyone copying the SD story?
I definately see what you're talking about in the Vietnamese forms, there's too much similar to discount. I don't know if much more than that can come of it, unless we can talk to someone who knows that style and those forms, and knows its history.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I don't think the material is actually in or from kempo. I just wonder what book everyone got their information from, or who passed that down. Is everyone copying the SD story?
I definately see what you're talking about in the Vietnamese forms, there's too much similar to discount. I don't know if much more than that can come of it, unless we can talk to someone who knows that style and those forms, and knows its history.

or can give us the gist of that intro, at least.

[tattooedmonk]

Who told you that? I'm not saying it isn't true, I just wonder, since there is such a huge difference in stories. Can baqualin or KC or any of the long-timers verify that? I'm sure the definitive answer is, as is mostly the case, "He started teaching it one day. He didn't tell us where it came from, and we didn't ask, so no one knows."

Whether he created them or not, it has southern elements. The truth might be in between, as is so often the case, like having made heavy modifications to forms seen or learned somewhere.

This is what on SD site says about it
"The bird styles of Shaolin were made famous at the Omei Temple. The original style, the Shaolin Bird, was a conglomerate system - the Tai Peng system – combining the natures of many birds into one system, blending balance and grace with powerful leg and hand techniques. Out of the Omei Temple evolved the famous White Crane system, with its rapid leg attacks, open finger techniques and the infighting of Wing Chun. From this same system came the legendary Eagle Claw system with its deadly hands and flying techniques. Over the centuries new styles with specific techniques were brought into the Omei system, styles such as the Black Crane, the Phoenix, the Swallow, and the Golden **** or Chicken." from http://sdlouisville.com/brochure.htm

The only reference besides SD that I can find with the term "shaolin bird" is from a book by Villari, written in 1986, where he lists various animal styles from shaolin. The list is suspiciously similar to the one propagated by SD (with 10,000 bees and golden centipede, coming from various temples) So where did this info come from? What document or person provided this information originally, I wonder?

"Shaolin Bird style is one of the older fighting styles, being derived from the very old Lo Han style by way of the later China Hand style that seems to form the basis of much of the familiar Korean and Okinawan styles. (Many of the movements in Okinawan karate and such styles as Tang Soo Do closely resemble movements in China Hand and Shaolin Bird styles).

In Shaolin Bird style the hard, linear strikes and kicks of Lo-Han and China Hand first begin to acquire some of the circularity and fluidity that is characteristic of many later Chinese styles.

The strategic assumption is Shaolin Bird style is that the opponent is larger and stronger. The Bird stylist compensates by leaping in to deliver a flurry of strikes, and then leaping back out of range; or, again, by goading the opponent into a charge and sidestepping while striking. Bird style relies on quick transitions between low and high attacks and stances, sudden reversals of direction, long-range jumps to cover ground quickly, and well-developed stamina. Bird forms emphasize elbows and finger thrusts to soft targets."

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/animals.html

What is the truth of the "shaolin bird"? Did Villari ever learn from Sin The, or hang out with him?I believe this was copied off of Master Groom"s older site info.

[Shaolin Wookie]

So the style would be Thieu Lam style from That Son mountains. There seems to be Vietnamese schools of various southern Chinese styles all which use Thieu Lam in their name (just from looking at the signs at the beginning of the video we can se that, there is a Hong Quyen and Ving xuan quyen. )
Here's one example http://www.vietanhmon.org/inglese_file/thieulam.htm



It must be that one school's lineage. Most of the Thieu Lam styles on the internet (I know that's not a complete assessment, but it gives you a perspective of its broad flavor) is more like the typical Longfist stuff.

[bodhi warrior]

This is one of the problems as I see it within the System. I was taught over 15 years ago that they were some of the oldest forms in our collection. The history of these forms should be documented and taught at the time of the instruction of the forms so there is no misunderstanding, misinformation perpetuated and the watering down of material.

I learned these forms back in '84, man 23 yrs ago! whoa. Anyway there was an ad in IKF magazine that sin the' put out about some week long seminars he was holding for anyone to come and learn. When he listed the shaolin bird forms he followed them with original in parenthesis. I ask my instructor about it and he said they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. This was also in '84. It's just what I was told, why he would create new forms when he had 900 to choose from, I don't know.

[tattooedmonk]

I learned these forms back in '84, man 23 yrs ago! whoa. Anyway there was an ad in IKF magazine that sin the' put out about some week long seminars he was holding for anyone to come and learn. When he listed the shaolin bird forms he followed them with original in parenthesis. I ask my instructor about it and he said they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. This was also in '84. It's just what I was told, why he would create new forms when he had 900 to choose from, I don't know.I am just saying what I was told as well. What do you mean followed them with the original in parenthesis??

From what I understand some of the 900+ are created by Master Sin.( This does not matter .Masters have been making forms since ......well since forms were created.)

Who knows .

My point was that with so many schools and so many teachers there are too many stories and too many of them are not accurate or blown out of proportion , and/or NOBODY knows.

I think that a more accurate account of the history / lineage , forms / material , and rules/guidelines need to be documented and taught .

Are you still in SD??

[BM2]

I am not going to take the time to check, BUT, I am fairly certain that M. Hiang lists those on his site. Given that they are sperated from each other's schools, it really doesn't make sense that M. Hiang would require his students to learn those Bird forms if his brother made them up.

[Flaca]

I am not going to take the time to check, BUT, I am fairly certain that M. Hiang lists those on his site. Given that they are sperated from each other's schools, it really doesn't make sense that M. Hiang would require his students to learn those Bird forms if his brother made them up.

The birds from 2nd to 1st brown, right? Lo tien, chan ie and yin he.
http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/material_list.html

[bodhi warrior]

I am just saying what I was told as well. What do you mean followed them with the original in parenthesis??

From what I understand some of the 900+ are created by Master Sin.( This does not matter .Masters have been making forms since ......well since forms were created.)

Who knows .

My point was that with so many schools and so many teachers there are too many stories and too many of them are not accurate or blown out of proportion , and/or NOBODY knows.

I think that a more accurate account of the history / lineage , forms / material , and rules/guidelines need to be documented and taught .

Are you still in SD??

Yea, i'm still in it. I love it too much. About the bird forms though, here is how it was listed in the ad: The Honan weeks:3 white crane kata: pai ho lian tse, pai ho chan tse, and pai ho chuan; 3 (original) shaolin bird kata: luo tien, chan ie, yen ho; 2 beautiful bow kata, se pa kuen and hai lung chang; plus the legendary double hook sword kata and double broad sword.
I left out the some of the translations and the dates. There was also the Wu Tang weeks, and Shang tung weeks. Of all the material that was listed the bird forms are the only with the term original. Thats why I ask my instructor about it.
I personally like the forms, it doesn't bother me if he did make them up.

[Judge Pen]

I'll talk to my instructor too. I believe that I was told that they were among the oldest forms we have so there is apparently some mis-communication and/or inconsistencly in the history.

Frankly I'm shocked and appalled that there would be these issues with our history! Maybe I should quit! :eek::p

[BM2]

[QUOTE=Judge Pen; Frankly I'm shocked and appalled :eek::p[/QUOTE]

I recall an English teacher requesting the class to never use appalled in any letter to the Editor. He said that it seems everyone is "appalled."

[Judge Pen]

I recall an English teacher requesting the class to never use appalled in any letter to the Editor. He said that it seems everyone is "appalled."

Well I'm appalled that you would challenge my use of the word "appalled". I demand that you, sir, cease and desist.

[Baqualin]

I learned these forms back in '84, man 23 yrs ago! whoa. Anyway there was an ad in IKF magazine that sin the' put out about some week long seminars he was holding for anyone to come and learn. When he listed the shaolin bird forms he followed them with original in parenthesis. I ask my instructor about it and he said they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. This was also in '84. It's just what I was told, why he would create new forms when he had 900 to choose from, I don't know.

They were first taught (to my knowledge) to a handful of BB's in 79 or so as a gift from GMS....they were not part of curriculum at that time.....original in parenthesis means it came directly from the temple......GMS didn't make them up.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

They were first taught (to my knowledge) to a handful of BB's in 79 or so as a gift from GMS....they were not part of curriculum at that time.....original in parenthesis means it came directly from the temple......GMS didn't make them up.
BQ


Were you part of the '79 group? :D

[bodhi warrior]

They were first taught (to my knowledge) to a handful of BB's in 79 or so as a gift from GMS....they were not part of curriculum at that time.....original in parenthesis means it came directly from the temple......GMS didn't make them up.
BQ

The way my instructor explained it to me, the term "original" was used in the same context as "original Pakuachang".

[tattooedmonk]

I am not going to take the time to check, BUT, I am fairly certain that M. Hiang lists those on his site. Given that they are sperated from each other's schools, it really doesn't make sense that M. Hiang would require his students to learn those Bird forms if his brother made them up.I was just going to post this , thanks!:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

I'll talk to my instructor too. I believe that I was told that they were among the oldest forms we have so there is apparently some mis-communication and/or inconsistencly in the history.

Frankly I'm shocked and appalled that there would be these issues with our history! Maybe I should quit! :eek::pSo I guess "Original" in this sense would mean these are some of the oldest forms taught within Shaolin Do.

[tattooedmonk]

They were first taught (to my knowledge) to a handful of BB's in 79 or so as a gift from GMS....they were not part of curriculum at that time.....original in parenthesis means it came directly from the temple......GMS didn't make them up.
BQ:cool::D:p;)

[bodhi warrior]

They were first taught (to my knowledge) to a handful of BB's in 79 or so as a gift from GMS....they were not part of curriculum at that time.....original in parenthesis means it came directly from the temple......GMS didn't make them up.
BQ

I'm not trying to be a smart a@# when I ask this, but why are those the only 3 that are singled out as original?

[tattooedmonk]

I'm not trying to be a smart a@# when I ask this, but why are those the only 3 that are singled out as original?Probably because they are some of the "Original " forms that were developed and taught within the Shaolin system. The other ones were developed later. Just what I was told.It also gives a sense of authenticity.

[MasterKiller]

They were first taught (to my knowledge) to a handful of BB's in 79 or so as a gift from GMS....they were not part of curriculum at that time.....original in parenthesis means it came directly from the temple......GMS didn't make them up.
BQ
So these are the only forms he didn't make up?

[tattooedmonk]

So these are the only forms he didn't make up?What??:rolleyes:No these are just much older and among the "original" sets taught within the Shaolin System

[Judge Pen]

So these are the only forms he didn't make up?

Nah, there are lots of forms he didn't make up, hua, tai chi, pa kua, hsing ie, 5 animal form.

Of course you're rebuttal will be that these are the only forms he didn't make up or steal.

And my rebuttal will be, no proof he could have learned these forms in Indonesia as they are fairly well known.

And your rebuttal will be, really, why no photos of Ie.

And I'll say "don't know, maybe Ie prefered to have his picture painted"

And you'll say, "White Earp sent me pictures"

And I'll say, "Haven't seen them yet"

And you'll say

Well, you get the idea....

[MasterKiller]

The way Baqualin phrased that implied he made up everything else. I was just asking for clarification. ;)

[Baqualin]

I'm not trying to be a smart a@# when I ask this, but why are those the only 3 that are singled out as original?

The only three forms in that group of seminars that came directly from the temple and not through the temple.

[Baqualin]

The way Baqualin phrased that implied he made up everything else. I was just asking for clarification. ;)

I implied nothing:rolleyes:

[Baqualin]

Were you part of the '79 group? :D

No, but I know who was and it was a small group...not EML or EMS....they already had it.:D

[Judge Pen]

No, but I know who was and it was a small group...not EML or EMS....they already had it.:D

I bet I know the same one. By the way, what did you mean when you said "from the temple and not through the temple"?

[tattooedmonk]

I bet I know the same one. By the way, what did you mean when you said "from the temple and not through the temple"? Not to answer the question for him, but, I think he means the material that was absorbed into the temples teaching and not developed within the temple, hence "through the temple".Correct BQ??

[Baqualin]

Not to answer the question for him, but, I think he means the material that was absorbed into the temples teaching and not developed within the temple, hence "through the temple".Correct BQ??

Correct.:)

[brucereiter]

some more examples of the broad expressions of shaolin do ...

various west coast sd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vztv6io9fII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4CJRqBwheA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4uncJ61Atk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pz9MZMgDVs

new york sd school demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G81Pvua9_08

[tattooedmonk]

some more examples of the broad expressions of shaolin do ...

various west coast sd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vztv6io9fII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4CJRqBwheA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4uncJ61Atk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pz9MZMgDVs

new york sd school demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G81Pvua9_08Substandard. I was not impressed at all. 3rd blacks ?? They looked like lower belts doing upperbelt material.I call it like I see it. As for black belts doing lower belt material....:rolleyes::eek::confused:

[Leto]

ugh. why would someone put those test videos up? ever heard of dynamic tension? point sparring? *sigh* the sad thing is, he probably thinks he did great, and I'm sure he passed his test. I just hope the rest of the forms he did were way better. It looked like he just learned tiger crane and he was barely remembering it...of course, there is no excuse for a third black performing like that. (maybe this was a pretest?) The lack of standards is evident. How can you train for seven or eight years and still perform like that?

I know I shouldn't judge from here, testing can be stressfull. But stress doesn't account for that.

[MasterKiller]

some more examples of the broad expressions of shaolin do ...

various west coast sd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vztv6io9fII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4CJRqBwheA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4uncJ61Atk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pz9MZMgDVs

new york sd school demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G81Pvua9_08

What is your impression of these videos, Bruce?

[Judge Pen]

What is your impression of these videos, Bruce?

Not to speak for Bruce, but if he only studies internal, then he can only really comment on the Hsing-Ie two man set.

I'm sure the guy passed the test too, and certainly all of the moves were present, but he lacked the tempo (or more spedicfially did many of the forms too fast), the dynamic tension (in the appropriate parts) and the intent and power behind these forms. That's not his fault, because I've been told that some teachers under the CSC teach most of their forms to be performed with that level of speed and lack of power. (I'm basing this from a frined who has trained under a CSC 4th degree and with me under my teacher).

[MasterKiller]

How common is it to have teenager testing for 3rd black?

[Judge Pen]

How common is it to have teenager testing for 3rd black?

Not at all in our branch. You get younger ones that will have a "youth black sash" which is a simplified curriculim, but when they get older, they have to go back, pick up the remaining material and retest. Hence they stay 1st black for several years before they have the opportunity to move on.

Heck, my teacher is the oldest son of Master G. Mullins (8th degree now) and he was in his early 20s before he tested to third and he had been practicing regularly since he was at least 5. (He's now in his late 20s and a 5th degree).

Some of the guys form can be blamed on his age, but some of it has to be the instruction (that's just how some people are taught to do things).

[MasterKiller]

Some of the guys form can be blamed on his age, but some of it has to be the instruction (that's just how some people are taught to do things). Just looks like a typical kung fu student. He moves ok, but has no intent. I've seen worse.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Does anyone care to comment on the bird forms vids comparisons? Skipped right past that into the discussion of their SD debut....LOL.....:D

[Judge Pen]

Just looks like a typical kung fu student. He moves ok, but has no intent. I've seen worse. I agree. I'm not wanting to be hard on the guy at all. In fact, I would have offered the same constructive criticism, but I would have passed him on the test (especially given his age).

[Judge Pen]

Does anyone care to comment on the bird forms vids comparisons? Skipped right past that into the discussion of their SD debut....LOL.....:D


I havent' been able to get my computer to play the myspace vids. I'm curious to compare them.

[Shaolin Wookie]

After looking at some videos of california-based vietnamese shaolin schools, I see more likenesses with those than with "regular" shaolin. Just seems to strengthen the kuntao idea...shaolin based, indonesian influenced...etc...

[brucereiter]

ugh. why would someone put those test videos up? ever heard of dynamic tension? point sparring? *sigh* the sad thing is, he probably thinks he did great, and I'm sure he passed his test. I just hope the rest of the forms he did were way better. It looked like he just learned tiger crane and he was barely remembering it...of course, there is no excuse for a third black performing like that. (maybe this was a pretest?) The lack of standards is evident. How can you train for seven or eight years and still perform like that?

I know I shouldn't judge from here, testing can be stressfull. But stress doesn't account for that.

ttm/leto,

i did not post links of that stuff for people to be insulting. if you think it should be better dont type about it show us a video of how you would do it better/different.

mk,

in atl there are very few kids who are above 1st black. one who is has been training since he was like 6 years old and he is maybe 21ish now ... he is a exception

the thing that caught my eye during the "demo" was hsing i linking form. i did not know what it was at first and then i was like ohhhhh ...
now i have received some (deserved) flack for my expression of hsing i linking
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dEV39bhIO0I

6.06-6.27 you will see their expression of hsing i linkage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pz9MZMgDVs
is this the way it is intended to be performed. is this what is taught as hsing i linking?

i thought the videos were average for a person who has done a few years of casual training. not too bad ...

"point sparring" i must say i do not like it ...

best,

bruce

[Golden Tiger]

the thing that caught my eye during the "demo" was hsing i linking form. i did not know what it was at first and then i was like ohhhhh ...
.........is this the way it is intended to be performed. is this what is taught as hsing i linking?


Move wise, yes. I was able to pick out all the postures (with the exception of cross-horizontal block that was lacking from theirs and yours). It all comes down to the "flavor" of the person teaching. I have been around long enough to be able to tell 99% of the time who was taught by who.

Yours for example is classic M. Grooms. The way you punch, the foot work...heck, you probably even do those short burst exhales through your nose.

That being said, its hard to critique the forms. They don't generally look like how I do them because they didn't learn them when and from who I did. But for the most part, they look fine.

Guess I am going to drag my old, crippled butt out of the shadows and go to the tournement tomorrow. Please, any of you, stop by and say hi;)

[Judge Pen]

Guess I am going to drag my old, crippled butt out of the shadows and go to the tournement tomorrow. Please, any of you, stop by and say hi;)

Well, I won't be there but KC will. Stop by and introduce yourself. ;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

in atl there are very few kids who are above 1st black. one who is has been training since he was like 6 years old and he is maybe 21ish now ... he is a exception

e

And if he's the same person I think it is, has like a photographic memory or something......

[Shaolin Wookie]

For anyone interested in the subject, those vids were from the World MA Festival held on July 30th 2007, at at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Westminster, California. (Man, I hope there's no such thing as Vietnamese Mormons....LOL...):D

http://nguyenkinhdoanh.com/News9/WMA%20PHOTOS/WMA%20Photos.html

Theres a pic of the venue.

May be linked to Kienando, in terms of the binh dinh kung fu (shaolin-based):

http://www.kienandokungfu.com/Introducing_Kienandokungfu.htm

Their vids don't necessarily confirm that, although they're very good.

I fired off an email to a guy who helped organize the festival, to see if I could find out what school they're from, or what their history/lineage is to see if there's some info on these bird forms out there.

I'll post what info I get, if any. But I don't really expect much.

Their sign says: Vo Kinh
Van An

Searches don't really turn up much.

[brucereiter]

Move wise, yes. I was able to pick out all the postures (with the exception of cross-horizontal block that was lacking from theirs and yours). It all comes down to the "flavor" of the person teaching. I have been around long enough to be able to tell 99% of the time who was taught by who.



hi gt,

can you elaborate on the "cross-horizontal" block you were talking about ... thanks




Yours for example is classic M. Grooms. The way you punch, the foot work...heck, you probably even do those short burst exhales through your nose.




i am going to make a new linking clip when i have time as i think i have "fixed" a few of the many things lacking in my hsing i ... mostly to do with my whole body start/stop together instead of the way i approached it in the clip you saw where i think i am doing the punches for example in a "wave" like way more like i approach tai chi chuan.

that is a exhale "trait" many have in atl ... i think i do that "air burst" through my mouth though as it feels like i am going to hurt my nose exhaling that hard out my nose ... (or snot on myself lol ... )

any and all advice would be great. thanks.


best,

bruce

[Shaolin Wookie]

Check out vids of Tinh Vo Dao on youtube or something. There's a lot out there. Looks way more like stuff from our system than others do in terms of "flavor".

(not just the French dudes vids....LOL.....but they're alright).

Although if you look at his applications vid, there's some that we have exactly in the same sequences of strikes/locks/throws in ippons and techniques..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87xnSNifTB8

@:20 technique 1 (although, these are probably basic techs of almost any MA, he does them much like us).

@ 1:25...ippon 3 or 4 leading to takedown

He's pretty good......but I wouldn't call his forms "pretty"....LOL.....

[arinathos.valin]

ttm/leto,


6.06-6.27 you will see their expression of hsing i linkage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pz9MZMgDVs
is this the way it is intended to be performed. is this what is taught as hsing i linking?


bruce


A great example of Hsing-I... if you stripped out all of the internal principles, "karatefied" the moves, and set it to an XMA soundtrack...:(

[Golden Tiger]

Well, I won't be there but KC will. Stop by and introduce yourself.

Oh I know KC quite well. I am sure I will talk to him once or twice. Darn shame you can't make it up here. Maybe someday....:cool:



can you elaborate on the "cross-horizontal" block you were talking about ... thanks


Yes, after you smack the hand down, rise, down (Retreat, embrace the fist) then step out right foot-left cannon fist, you block with the right forearm, step back into 3 body. I was shown that the right forearm block you do comes after you step back and to the outside(left leg forward/right hand block out aka heng chien/horizontal cross fist).

Interestingly, looking at Master Sin's original notes, there is no mention of it. Guess thats a perfect example of me adding it along the way. His notes go straight from cannon fist, retreat, left chopping hand. See, it always pays to take good notes!

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=shaolindoiscool;795608]hi gt,

can you elaborate on the "cross-horizontal" block you were talking about ... thanks


I think he meant the crossing fist that comes after the cannon fist part of the linkage......from the crossing fist you go back to three body then to a little monkey block to chopping fist twice..2nd time with knee up then step into chicken eats the rice...then back to crushing fist and on..........
BQ

[Baqualin]

Oh I know KC quite well. I am sure I will talk to him once or twice. Darn shame you can't make it up here. Maybe someday....:cool:




Yes, after you smack the hand down, rise, down (Retreat, embrace the fist) then step out right foot-left cannon fist, you block with the right forearm, step back into 3 body. I was shown that the right forearm block you do comes after you step back and to the outside(left leg forward/right hand block out aka heng chien/horizontal cross fist).

Interestingly, looking at Master Sin's original notes, there is no mention of it. Guess thats a perfect example of me adding it along the way. His notes go straight from cannon fist, retreat, left chopping hand. See, it always pays to take good notes!

Correct...EML teaches it as crossing fist

[Baqualin]

Guess I am going to drag my old, crippled butt out of the shadows and go to the tournement tomorrow. Please, any of you, stop by and say hi;)

Right...I only have one thing to say to that...:rolleyes:
BQ

[brucereiter]

Oh I know KC quite well. I am sure I will talk to him once or twice. Darn shame you can't make it up here. Maybe someday....:cool:




Yes, after you smack the hand down, rise, down (Retreat, embrace the fist) then step out right foot-left cannon fist, you block with the right forearm, step back into 3 body. I was shown that the right forearm block you do comes after you step back and to the outside(left leg forward/right hand block out aka heng chien/horizontal cross fist).

Interestingly, looking at Master Sin's original notes, there is no mention of it. Guess thats a perfect example of me adding it along the way. His notes go straight from cannon fist, retreat, left chopping hand. See, it always pays to take good notes!

hi gt,

thank you for the insight ...

i know where you are talking about and that posture would make sense there but is different than i have understood from my instruction...
since we have small variations in choreography maybe you could share some insight into the important principals that should be followed with hsing i that i may be lacking in my expression of hsing i ??? maybe expant on what kc was telling me about 3 body/san ti etc ... thanks.

best

bruce

[brucereiter]

[QUOTE=shaolindoiscool;795608]hi gt,

can you elaborate on the "cross-horizontal" block you were talking about ... thanks


I think he meant the crossing fist that comes after the cannon fist part of the linkage......from the crossing fist you go back to three body then to a little monkey block to chopping fist twice..2nd time with knee up then step into chicken eats the rice...then back to crushing fist and on..........
BQ

as i just practiced it now it may be something i glossed over ... as i do not have a specific note about that piece of the form ... but i played it how i imagine gt explained it and it made sense ... i could be way off though ... lol ...

best,

bruce

[Yao Sing]

Although if you look at his applications vid, there's some that we have exactly in the same sequences of strikes/locks/throws in ippons and techniques..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87xnSNifTB8

@:20 technique 1 (although, these are probably basic techs of almost any MA, he does them much like us).

@ 1:25...ippon 3 or 4 leading to takedown

He's pretty good......but I wouldn't call his forms "pretty"....LOL.....

Pet peeve of mine, how come peeps are always defending a straight punch when they show apps?

How many ways to deal with a stright punch or kick do you need to know? It just bugs me.

50 ways to defend against a straight punch, front kick, but nothing against a bear hug, shoot, headlock, etc.

[tattooedmonk]

ttm

I did not post links of that stuff for people to be insulting.......... I am not being insulting. I am being truthful.Sorry if the truth hurts or offends you.The schools out west are substandard. They are more concerned with selling belts and having a large body of students than teaching quality MA. :D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Pet peeve of mine, how come peeps are always defending a straight punch when they show apps?

How many ways to deal with a stright punch or kick do you need to know? It just bugs me.

50 ways to defend against a straight punch, front kick, but nothing against a bear hug, shoot, headlock, etc.Self defense / Chin Na 1-30 in SD/ CSC has those.:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Pet peeve of mine, how come peeps are always defending a straight punch when they show apps?

How many ways to deal with a stright punch or kick do you need to know? It just bugs me.

50 ways to defend against a straight punch, front kick, but nothing against a bear hug, shoot, headlock, etc.

Pet peeve of mine, as well. It's a good tool for beginners, just to get them used to something coming at their head; but it's not something that's "realistic".

[Shaolin Wookie]

I am not being insulting. I am being truthful.Sorry if the truth hurts or offends you.The schools out west are substandard. They are more concerned with selling belts and having a large body of students than teaching quality MA. :D:cool:

I bet that was Ricardo Cameron, who sometimes posts here.......

He's doing what he does, and at the level of his ability. I wasn't even doing MA at his age, so I can't critique. Technically, I really sucked at MA at his age....LOL....:D

[Leto]

I know everyone's doing their best. It's just that it saddens me, when I see people with obviously so much enthusiasm and talent who aren't given any guidance. I guess it's not "wasted", when you feel good and like the people you're working with. I had a discussion like this once with one the seniors in my school. She made a point that not everyone can be "hard core", and that we're just offering everyone the chance to do the best they can and accomplish something. The level which they actually achieve is not important. the award of ranks is only relative to your own personal progress, and doesn't need to have anything to o with the perceived "level" of anyone else. So if you're better than you were two years ago, then you're ready to get that second black, even if you can't perform the techniques as well as everyone else can. I can appreciate giving everyone a chance to work hard and improve themselves.
Especially for teenagers and younger folk...I would try my best to instill a strong foundation which they just don't get in the schools I saw. With all the material to learn, and the push to test as soon as possible, there just wasn't time to stop and focus on having a solid stance, or putting power into every kind of strike. The theory is that you will get all that stuff over time, as you practice the myriad forms over and over again. However, a great portion of time is spent just learning the moves of the form. As soon as you've got it, it's time for the next form. When is this time to focus on fundamentals supposed to occur? In reality, it doesn't.

In the eastern schools, it seems things are better. But in the western system, a lot of people go through the ranks without receiving much basic instruction.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've said it before, and will say it again: you kind of have to be a pest and press people for depth....LOL.....:D. Plus, you've got to ask the right people....at least, here in the East. Don't really know how it is in the West.


Note: I got a reply on the kungfu forum from a Vietnamese speaking dude, who was a really big help in determining the bird form comparisons I had made. He says the forms we saw are two of the four basic hand sets taught in a binh dinh (Vietnamese Shaolin) MA called Buddhist Temple Kung Fu, and that the style generally describes Tiger claw and Crane movements, predicated on Hung Gar footwork. Sounds a lot like what we do.

The first fist form, which looked like 1st bird, was called: "Can ban so dang."


The second fist form, which looked like 2nd bird, was called: "Nhap mon khoi quyen."

I am curious if these forms, based on their Vietnamese description, could possibly be related to Tiger-Swallow, or something of that sort. I'm pretty certain these MA's migrated somewhat in the fashion ours did, in terms of structure (minus the hairy chinese guys).

I don't know about you guys, but I find this very interesting.

I also emailed one of the guys who ran the World Martial Arts Festival, and he seemed happy to help me out. He forwarded my email to several prominent Vietnamese kung fu teachers in Southern Cali. I got one reply so far, and the dude mistook me for a woman because of my first name, Morgan....LOL...the *******......:D...but I appreciate his response (and makes this response letter friggin' hilarious!!!):


"Indeed, there are some Vietnamese Shaolin Kungfu in Southern California but I can't recommend any of them because I don't know the purpose of this lady. She may watch, learn or challenge them. Practically, we can't do that. If she likes to learn Vietnamese Kungfu without learning any other style, I can recommend some. In this case, she already learned some styles. "

LOL, now I'm some lady that wants to challenge the Vietnamese masters of Little Saigon, CA? LOL......:eek:......

[MasterKiller]

Note: I got a reply on the kungfu forum from a Vietnamese speaking dude, who was a really big help in determining the bird form comparisons I had made. He says the forms we saw are two of the four basic hand sets taught in a binh dinh (Vietnamese Shaolin) MA called Buddhist Temple Kung Fu, and that the style generally describes Tiger claw and Crane movements, predicated on Hung Gar footwork. Sounds a lot like what we do.

Phuc Careem is a good resource. You can trust what he says.


I am curious if these forms, based on their Vietnamese description, could possibly be related to Tiger-Swallow, or something of that sort.
They don't look anything like Tiger-Swallow.:confused:

[Yao Sing]

"Indeed, there are some Vietnamese Shaolin Kungfu in Southern California but I can't recommend any of them because I don't know the purpose of this lady. She may watch, learn or challenge them. Practically, we can't do that. If she likes to learn Vietnamese Kungfu without learning any other style, I can recommend some. In this case, she already learned some styles. "

So you can only learn if you don't have any previous training?

And they're hiding out because they're afraid someone might want to fight them?

Sounds really weird to me, maybe a cult thing.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Phuc Careem is a good resource. You can trust what he says.


They don't look anything like Tiger-Swallow.:confused:

My mistake.....I don't know what I was typing earlier. I meant this Vietnamese Tiger-Crane combo thing they have going on. I don't see any hung gar in what they were doing, really. Only in the footwork, like PC said.

[Shaolin Wookie]

So you can only learn if you don't have any previous training?

And they're hiding out because they're afraid someone might want to fight them?

Sounds really weird to me, maybe a cult thing.

Wow, you really misread that.

I asked some questions about the forms, and they must have thought I wanted to come and learn them. (And these are Vietnamese dudes living in a Vietnamese community in CA). Some random dude (or chick, apparently) is asking them questions....and that guy's reply was through another guy's referral. You know, the chain thang......messages get distorted....:D

[Golden Tiger]

Everyone taking a nap? It was a great weekend but even my old a$$ isn't that tired.:cool:

[Baqualin]

QUOTE=Golden Tiger;797032]Everyone taking a nap? It was a great weekend but even my old a$$ isn't that tired.:cool:[/QUOTE]

Hey GT,
What did you think about the Yin side of Meteor Fist:D
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Everyone taking a nap? It was a great weekend but even my old a$$ isn't that tired.:cool:


Did you say hello to KC? :D

[Golden Tiger]

What did you think about the Yin side of Meteor Fist

Interesting....not what I expected at all. But great stuff as expected.

Oh and BQ, excellent job on the form. The PaKua spear is a bear to begin with but you did very good with it.


Did you say hello to KC?

Yes, I think I got the chance to talk to him both Saturday and Sunday.:D

[Judge Pen]

Oh and BQ, excellent job on the form. The PaKua spear is a bear to begin with but you did very good with it.


Don't have that form, but its one of my favorite forms to see performed if its done well. Sorry I missed it BQ.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Golden Tiger;797068]Interesting....not what I expected at all. But great stuff as expected.

It was great to finally get a little Golden Snake material & I really liked the Eagle Claw form also:D

Oh and BQ, excellent job on the form. The PaKua spear is a bear to begin with but you did very good with it.

Thanks, I've been nursing a strained muscle in my hip for a month (hurt at work) so, personally I was not pleased with my performance...double smash in the intro I blew and a couple of other places my hip said no!!....if Medicine Man Don hadn't worked on me all week I wouldn't have even walked out on the floor....what did you think about the Golden Girls...the're my students...not bad for 60 / 70 year olds and a lady with a heart transplant eh:)

[Baqualin]

Don't have that form, but its one of my favorite forms to see performed if its done well. Sorry I missed it BQ.

The performance of the night was Master Bullock and the Ground Dragon.......absolutely awesome....KC got it on film....call him and check it out.....oh before I forget Bent Monk was on top of his game with 7 star mantis...he's always amazing:)
BQ

[Judge Pen]

The performance of the night was Master Bullock and the Ground Dragon.......absolutely awesome....KC got it on film....call him and check it out.....oh before I forget Bent Monk was on top of his game with 7 star mantis...he's always amazing:)
BQ

I hadn't had the chance to talk to KC this week. I've been slammed at work. :mad: Maybe soon.

[BentMonk]

BQ - Thanks for the kind words. Your performance was very good. I have to agree w/you, Master Eric was awesome. My oldest boy was blown away. This was his first tournament. He already can't wait until next year. Despite the fact that there were few competitors in the blue belt division he did well. Second in weapons, third in empty hand and sparring.

[tattooedmonk]

Where are the White Cranes at brown belt level from?? They are not Fukien . Are they Omei??

[Shaolin Wookie]

Where are the White Cranes at brown belt level from?? They are not Fukien . Are they Omei??

That's what the books and websites say. Emei, that is.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Can anyone tell me, is this the 1st Road of Hua learned at SD? It looks very, very similar, from what I've seen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67acdZcvnHA

[tattooedmonk]

Can anyone tell me, is this the 1st Road of Hua learned at SD? It looks very, very similar, from what I've seen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67acdZcvnHAYes , although slightly different.I do not see the same martial intent in this compared to ours.

[kwaichang]

No but it is similar KC

[Judge Pen]

Its the same form. You can call of the lyrics move for move, but they do some of the technique differently from us.

[sean_stonehart]

Yes , although slightly different.I do not see the same martial intent in this compared to ours.

That's cause dude is walking it, not pushing full on.

[sean_stonehart]

Its the same form. You can call of the lyrics move for move, but they do some of the technique differently from us.

Yeah... have you noticed though that material in SD that is found elsewhere is more often than not that way?

[Judge Pen]

Yeah... have you noticed though that material in SD that is found elsewhere is more often than not that way?

Sure I have. I have my own theory as to why that is too (i'd tell you, but it would be about the 50th time I've typed it on this thread alone). :p

[Baqualin]

Yeah... have you noticed though that material in SD that is found elsewhere is more often than not that way?

I have noticed that with every school, every style, everybody.....the same difference occurs between our schools...it was very obvious this weekend at our tourney....it's a difference in teachers.......everybody is different....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.......GT made the point that he could watch someone do a form from SD & tell you who their teacher is........I've seen better Hua from SD students.....I went back and looked at all the clips from that school...the Chen clips I saw were not impressive at all...to me....that doesn't mean I do it better...just different.:D
BQ

[sean_stonehart]

I have noticed that with every school, every style, everybody.....the same difference occurs between our schools...it was very obvious this weekend at our tourney....it's a difference in teachers.......everybody is different....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.......GT made the point that he could watch someone do a form from SD & tell you who their teacher is........I've seen better Hua from SD students.....I went back and looked at all the clips from that school...the Chen clips I saw were not impressive at all...to me....that doesn't mean I do it better...just different.:D
BQ

True & ST should be able to do that.

But to avoid beating the same dead horse hopefully, should Chen TJQ look/act/move/express/etc... like SD or like the Chen Village teachers who have done only one thing their entire life? Honestly... who's right in this? The people who carry because it's their legacy & teach it as such, or somebody who has a form or two saying "it's played this way, they only pretty it up & dumb it down" (Yes I've heard that statement, not those word, but that sentiment from wearer(s) of the candycane belt while in China)

[Baqualin]

True & ST should be able to do that.

But to avoid beating the same dead horse hopefully, should Chen TJQ look/act/move/express/etc... like SD or like the Chen Village teachers who have done only one thing their entire life? Honestly... who's right in this? The people who carry because it's their legacy & teach it as such, or somebody who has a form or two saying "it's played this way, they only pretty it up & dumb it down" (Yes I've heard that statement, not those word, but that sentiment from wearer(s) of the candycane belt while in China)

That's easy....like the Chen village TEACHERS....Chen Tai Chi is Chen Tai Chi, not SD Tai Chi........have you seen GMS do Chen 83:)
BQ

[brucereiter]

True & ST should be able to do that.

But to avoid beating the same dead horse hopefully, should Chen TJQ look/act/move/express/etc... like SD or like the Chen Village teachers who have done only one thing their entire life? Honestly... who's right in this? The people who carry because it's their legacy & teach it as such, or somebody who has a form or two saying "it's played this way, they only pretty it up & dumb it down" (Yes I've heard that statement, not those word, but that sentiment from wearer(s) of the candycane belt while in China)

hi sean,

take chen xiao wang and chen zhong li as a example. look at their xin jia 83 form. they both express it very differently then look at chen yu. very very different expression. now look at Feng Zhiqiang and his expression all of these men are related to and or learned from chen fake directly or indirectly.

to add to that just type "chen xin jia taijiquan" into google video search and notice all of the variations of the same form ... which one is "correct" which one is "real"


and here for your entertainment is my expression of part of the xin jia form
http://youtube.com/watch?v=15ZKEig-Osw
not saying this is how it is "supposed to be" its just how i understand it :-)

best,

bruce

[Baqualin]

hi sean,

take chen xiao wang and chen zhong li as a example. look at their xin jia 83 form. they both express it very differently then look at chen yu. very very different expression. now look at Feng Zhiqiang and his expression all of these men are related to and or learned from chen fake directly or indirectly.

to add to that just type "chen xin jia taijiquan" into google video search and notice all of the variations of the same form ... which one is "correct" which one is "real"


and here for your entertainment is my expression of part of the xin jia form
http://youtube.com/watch?v=15ZKEig-Osw
not saying this is how it is "supposed to be" its just how i understand it :-)

best,

bruce

Absolutely correct...this is what I meant by everybody is different....Sean, may be talking about the principles of Chen Tai Chi....which all of the above follow, but not all of our students or students from other styles...as I have seen and I'm sure you have also in your travels;)
BQ

[sean_stonehart]

Absolutely correct...this is what I meant by everybody is different....Sean, may be talking about the principles of Chen Tai Chi....which all of the above follow, but not all of our students or students from other styles...as I have seen and I'm sure you have also in your travels;)
BQ

;)... you may have something there...

Oh I have seen ST do a piece of Chen, I've seen him do Yang on the KTV tapes... I've seen him do alot of things. I still same the same thing now as then. I don't want to get by him, but...

[Shaolin Wookie]

You trailed off there, man. Come again?

[Judge Pen]

;)... you may have something there...

Oh I have seen ST do a piece of Chen, I've seen him do Yang on the KTV tapes... I've seen him do alot of things. I still same the same thing now as then. I don't want to get by him, but...

Did you mean to say "I still thinksame the same thing now as then. I don't want to get hitby him, but..."

I'm guessing I know what comes after the "but..."

[sean_stonehart]

Did you mean to say "I still thinksame the same thing now as then. I don't want to get hitby him, but..."

I'm guessing I know what comes after the "but..."

Yeah... ok... pretty good on all 3... JP for the win in playing grammatical guessing & fill in the blank

[Baqualin]

Did you mean to say "I still thinksame the same thing now as then. I don't want to get hitby him, but..."

I'm guessing I know what comes after the "but..."


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D....and that's the truth:)

[kwaichang]

Well after all the argueing this past weekend confirms even more so the SD link to the Shaolin Temples of Old. I am totally convinced even more than I was before that SD is the real deal. KC

[Yao Sing]

Why is it you guys can never share all that proof positive evidence?

Wasn't it you that was going to take a list of questions to Sin The? Then you claimed you did ask him the questions and was completely convinced by the answers but could not reveal them to the public.

Don't be surprised when nobody believes you.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Why is it you guys can never share all that proof positive evidence?
.

It's only for the in-door students....LOL.....:D...

I've seen things from both sides, and see in it its Shaolin heritage, as well as its Indonesian kuntao/silat side.

[kwaichang]

It's a personal thing man , and I did ask the questions but there was so much depth to the answers I couldnt recall it all. Also , I dont care if anyone believes me I just thought I would share what I thought about the seminar. Nothing to prove. KC

[sean_stonehart]

Well after all the argueing this past weekend confirms even more so the SD link to the Shaolin Temples of Old. I am totally convinced even more than I was before that SD is the real deal. KC

Share with the rest of us & give insight on something the rest of us are apparently missing...

[Yao Sing]

Come on Sean, you know that's all top secret and we have to take his word (and judgment) on it.

[kwaichang]

Read My Lips, or should I say my last line of my last post, Ba qualin want to help me out on this one ? , now lets talk Kung Fu KC:):D

[Litikuai]

I was there and have to say the history GMThe gave was amazing and does reinforce the SD position previously noted. LTK

[Baqualin]

Read My Lips, or should I say my last line of my last post, Ba qualin want to help me out on this one ? , now lets talk Kung Fu KC:):D

You don't need any help.....there is nothing to prove...it is what it is and I'm perfectly content with what SD has done for my life and what I can pass on to others....there's a whole UTUBE world of martial arts out there now and I see nothing that impresses me any more than what I see from the SD students that train and work hard to understand the knowledge GMS hands us:)
BQ

[Yao Sing]

I just have to say that from an outsider's perspective it looks very much like typical cult talk. That is the face you are portraying to the world. Saying things like "Nothing to prove" does nothing but reflect more of a cult like mentality.

Not bashing or insinuating fake MA, just telling you how it looks from outside your group. Comments like this have been made quite often before by others viewing SD from the outside.

Apparently this doesn't bother any of you yet you insist on wanting to know why people think and say what they do about SD and ask for specifics. Well, this is a specific for you all to ponder, or not since there is "Nothing to prove".

Sometimes it seems you guys are begging to be ridiculed.

[Yao Sing]

Actually I'd like to ask for an explanation although I know there will be none. But why is it that the information is so secret?

[kwaichang]

Hey thanks Yao but again I dont care what people think. I used to but now I dont. Those who do not know what we are doing are judging and that doesnt matter. I will tell you most SD people are so independent they couldnt be in a cult. KC

[bawang]

why does shaolin do have a japanese name do behind it and wear japanese gis? sorry i seriously cannot figure it out. this would be an insult to chinese culture right?! i tried reading through the huge thread but can somebody just condense everything to a paragraph, thanks

[Yao Sing]

SD came from Indonesia where all things Chinese were suppressed. Plus when Sin The first started it in the US Kung Fu was unknown and Karate was the more familiar name the masses would recognize.


How was that?

Also, the "moves like Karate" has been kicked about plenty throughout this thread. The current issue is the secret info they have that would validate everything they claim (true Shaolin, everyone else is watered down/modified) but it can't be revealed to the public.

And no, they are not a cult because they said they aren't.

[brucereiter]

(true Shaolin, everyone else is watered down/modified)

.

my opinion on that is anyone who holds that opinion of shaolin do is fooling themselves.

[Golden Tiger]

Actually I'd like to ask for an explanation although I know there will be none. But why is it that the information is so secret?


I am not exactly sure what information you are refering to that is supposed to be top secret. Just about everything that is known of SD and Master Sin has been told over and over and over again. Most that have trained in the system have heard it and some have decided to take it and him at his word. Others that have only looked in from the outside and watch a few vids have decided not to.

Granted, there are some things that are taught to a select few students after many many years of training and commitment that I nor they would be willing to share but otherwise, everything else is out there. And more than likely, that information could be found elsewhere but those that get it have had to put a heck of a lot of time, sweat, pain and blood into it and are not going to give it out to someone sniffing around on a forum.

This past Liu Hsing seminar was very nice indeed. Master Sin gave the complete background on how it came to be, complete with names in the lineage. Personally, I have neither the time nor the inclination to track them all down to see if there are real or not. Its kind of like my family tree going back 7 generations, I have read the names but thats about it. Its really only the last two that had any bearing on me.

So, if you want any of this secret info, ask me. I have been a student of SD for over 30 years now and there is not much that has happened that I am not aware of. Then again, if you read through the whole thread, I am sure that any question that you can think of has been answered...a couple of times even.;)

Some one asked me about some Hsing Ie notes a few weeks back, SD is cool I think. I forgot what you wanted. Care to refresh my memory?

[brucereiter]

Some one asked me about some Hsing Ie notes a few weeks back, SD is cool I think. I forgot what you wanted. Care to refresh my memory?

<<i know where you are talking about and that posture would make sense there but is different than i have understood from my instruction...
since we have small variations in choreography maybe you could share some insight into the important principals that should be followed with hsing i that i may be lacking in my expression of hsing i ??? maybe expand on what kc was telling me about 3 body/san ti etc ... thanks.>>

hi gt,

the above is what i was asking about. basically if you could look at these hsing i clips and share some pointers about the way i approach them, not so much the exact choreography but the concepts and principals from your point of view.
beng chuan
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8x6er4aobuc
monkey
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-JuMkgpKJwE
linkage
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dEV39bhIO0I

thank you ...

best,

bruce

[Judge Pen]

And no, they are not a cult because they said they aren't.
As far as why we are not a cult--a cult controls most if not all the aspects of a members life. My teachers have no control over my life outside of the school. They do not tell me what to say or what to think. (I'm sure many opinions I've expressed here are those that most in SD would not agree with.) They do not tell me who to socialize with or how to organize my life, family and career. The only thing they do tell me when I'm ready to advace in material or rank and what my martial strengths and weaknesses are. Everything else is my own. They don't even attempt to excercise any influence or control outside of my training. I'm free to form my own opinions and they train me in the confines of their schools. What's wrong with that?

That's why SD isn't a cult. You want cult, then read "Hearding the Moo". If SD ever told me to rub dog **** on the edges of a broken mirror to avoid bad luck, then I'll agree and call SD a cult.

[Citong Shifu]

I was reading one of SD's websites (Colorado Springs) and found it interesting that SD would claim that master Th'e was honored with a stone tablet that was erected to commemorate his visit to Shaolin Temple, instead of saying, SD or master Th'e was honored by Shaolin Temple (location of temple) and was allowed to erect a stone tablet in respect of his teachers/lineage. Or, something along that line. Know what I mean?

Of course, this isn't the first time I've read this. However, I am curious to hear about who supports ST's claim here in the U.S.; Shi Yanming, Shi Yangao, or any of the U.S. Shaolin Temple kung fu monks. What about the non- temple shaolin masters here in the U.S.. With all the SD media and website press, ST is regarded as the father of shaolin kung fu mastering 900 forms from over 100 kung fu fighting styles.

I'm sorry, I just cant buy into all these claims. I'm not saying that ST doesnt have an extensive background in the martial arts or that he didnt train in some shaolin kung fu at one time or another. Just, the SD claims just doesn't add up.

I've seen many of the SD youtube clips which weren't bad, but I didnt see a whole lot of shaolin kung fu, some but not alot.

Shaolin kung fu is becoming very popular in the U.S. as well as shaolin wushu and the ohter chinese styles, sooner than later SD will have to answer the questions being asked and provide a more clear cut lineage to support its claims.

What I would like is to see some footage of ST performing his shaolin do or shaolin kung fu, when he was young (20's/30's) and current day! Is there any footage available of ST in action, as well as his self-defense or sparring? That would really be a great resource for this thread. Anywho, if you guys could provide some fooage of your teacher doing some real shaolin movement, not walk through seminar stuff, I think alot of these conversation would cease. Then again, who knows....

[Judge Pen]

I was reading one of SD's websites (Colorado Springs) and found it interesting that SD would claim that master Th'e was honored with a stone tablet that was erected to commemorate his visit to Shaolin Temple, instead of saying, SD or master Th'e was honored by Shaolin Temple (location of temple) and was allowed to erect a stone tablet in respect of his teachers/lineage. Or, something along that line. Know what I mean?

Of course, this isn't the first time I've read this. However, I am curious to hear about who supports ST's claim here in the U.S.; Shi Yanming, Shi Yangao, or any of the U.S. Shaolin Temple kung fu monks. What about the non- temple shaolin masters here in the U.S.. With all the SD media and website press, ST is regarded as the father of shaolin kung fu mastering 900 forms from over 100 kung fu fighting styles.

I'm sorry, I just cant buy into all these claims. I'm not saying that ST doesnt have an extensive background in the martial arts or that he didnt train in some shaolin kung fu at one time or another. Just, the SD claims just doesn't add up.

I've seen many of the SD youtube clips which weren't bad, but I didnt see a whole lot of shaolin kung fu, some but not alot.

Shaolin kung fu is becoming very popular in the U.S. as well as shaolin wushu and the ohter chinese styles, sooner than later SD will have to answer the questions being asked and provide a more clear cut lineage to support its claims.

What I would like is to see some footage of ST performing his shaolin do or shaolin kung fu, when he was young (20's/30's) and current day! Is there any footage available of ST in action, as well as his self-defense or sparring? That would really be a great resource for this thread. Anywho, if you guys could provide some fooage of your teacher doing some real shaolin movement, not walk through seminar stuff, I think alot of these conversation would cease. Then again, who knows....

I'd love to see that footage too! I know this: at his age 64, I'm very impressed when he teaches a seminar at what he is still able to physically do. He's slowed down a bit, but his stances are way lower and stronger than mine and his stamina is unreal for his age. I'd love to see him move in his prime.

I respect your perspective, but like I've said, I don't think that our lineage will not be more defined then it is already. I think things got "mixed and matched" a bunch in the school in Indonesia and it has made SD what it is today. It is certianly distinct from what is identified as shaolin today, but that's not to say that the material didn't have some line back to what we define as a set of temples under the shaolin "banner" including many martial temples that are usually associated with henan or even fukien.

As far as what it reported in each individual website, then that's on that owner in not be clearer when they descirbie certain things.

[bawang]

SD came from Indonesia where all things Chinese were suppressed. Plus when Sin The first started it in the US Kung Fu was unknown and Karate was the more familiar name the masses would recognize..
thanks man, but it makes me still confused, the anti chinese policies in Indonesia are over , so why don't they now lose the gis and change the name to just shaolin?



Also, the "moves like Karate" has been kicked about plenty throughout this thread. The current issue is the secret info they have that would validate everything they claim (true Shaolin, everyone else is watered down/modified) but it can't be revealed to the public.

And no, they are not a cult because they said they aren't.
people like this make me very, very , very angry. makes me wanna perform rhinoplasty with my fists.

to be serious, well if they want to continue the shaolin heritage, then all they have to do is lose the gi, loes the "do", invite some real monks to teach, incorporate real forms with applications. just one real shaolin form and they can call themselves shaolin. but..

[Yao Sing]

I am not exactly sure what information you are refering to that is supposed to be top secret.

If you've followed the thread from the beginning (don't expect anyone to read the whole thing now) you will remember someone (Willowsword I think) wanted to ask Sin The some questions. I think it ended up where kwaichang (or someone) was going to be meeting with him and agreed to ask him the questions.

Afterwards he claimed to have ask these questions but would not reveal the answers although he claimed they put his mind at ease and he was 100% sure SD was the real Shaolin.

Then he recently said this:


Well after all the argueing this past weekend confirms even more so the SD link to the Shaolin Temples of Old. I am totally convinced even more than I was before that SD is the real deal. KC

and again he can't share any of this conversation that convinced him about the validity of SD.

That is the information I am referring to that appears to be Top Secret. This info is not listed anywhere in this thread (I've followed from the beginning) and it appears kwaichang has direct validation from Sin The himself but refuses to make it pubic. Smells like BS to me.

It would be appreciated if you could fill in the info, if known to you, without muddying the waters with side issues.

[brucereiter]

If you've followed the thread from the beginning (don't expect anyone to read the whole thing now) you will remember someone (Willowsword I think) wanted to ask Sin The some questions. I think it ended up where kwaichang (or someone) was going to be meeting with him and agreed to ask him the questions.

Afterwards he claimed to have ask these questions but would not reveal the answers although he claimed they put his mind at ease and he was 100% sure SD was the real Shaolin.

Then he recently said this:



and again he can't share any of this conversation that convinced him about the validity of SD.

That is the information I am referring to that appears to be Top Secret. This info is not listed anywhere in this thread (I've followed from the beginning) and it appears kwaichang has direct validation from Sin The himself but refuses to make it pubic. Smells like BS to me.

It would be appreciated if you could fill in the info, if known to you, without muddying the waters with side issues.

i would like to hear this information too:-)

[Citong Shifu]

I'd love to see that footage too! I know this: at his age 64, I'm very impressed when he teaches a seminar at what he is still able to physically do. He's slowed down a bit, but his stances are way lower and stronger than mine and his stamina is unreal for his age. I'd love to see him move in his prime.

I respect your perspective, but like I've said, I don't think that our lineage will not be more defined then it is already. I think things got "mixed and matched" a bunch in the school in Indonesia and it has made SD what it is today. It is certianly distinct from what is identified as shaolin today, but that's not to say that the material didn't have some line back to what we define as a set of temples under the shaolin "banner" including many martial temples that are usually associated with henan or even fukien.

As far as what it reported in each individual website, then that's on that owner in not be clearer when they descirbie certain things.


I hear you JP. Dont get me wrong, I'm not against SD just the SD self media/press/claims. SD, or who it may be, places Th'e above all the Shaolin martial arts world in one way or another. SD website after website reinforce his position as the highest authority concerning the various Shaolin Styles. My point is this, There are so many more Shaolin martial art masters that have worked hard to complete their training and achieve high level skill in the Shaolin MA for one guy to claim he has mastered and achieved all :confused:. I would like to see Sin Th'e intermingle with the Chinese masters here in U.S. who have documented history and lineage of the arts (for the most part). Better yet, why hasn't Sin Th'e offered his assitance to the U.S. Shaolin masters, Chinese and non-Chinese?

His claim to be youngest Shaolin GM in history, I can buy that, but only in the context of being GM of his own system/style, SD, not Shaolin Temple kung fu. There are and were too many others Shaolin exponents ahead of him for ST to claim GM... But thats another conversation...

If ST footage can not be produced then how about someone letting us know who and where are the masters teaching SD (ST lineage and other teachers from his masters) outside the U.S. ; China, Indonesia, Mongolia, Taiwan, etc. Surely there's a link back to Indo-China and abroad. There's got to be other school outside of his creation. I would like to research the original schools that still exist over there. I have resources throughout the CMA both here and in China, as well as some of the International Chinese martial art Federations that I belong to.

ST claiming to be GM of his own system is purely his right, but claiming be the only GM that completed and masterd all of the Shaolin Temple arts is just not true.

Who knows where the Indo-China SD schools are and the teachers that teach ST's art? Whatever info you can give would greatly be appreciated.

JP, this post wasn't directed at you, but to /sd in general. I just kinda trailed off, lol... Like I said, I'm not against SD or its members, just the press that is allowed by ST to be posted to the public... He controls all other aspects of SD, why cant he control whats be relayed to the public by his own people and their schools, hmmmm, :confused:.

[brucereiter]

I was reading one of SD's websites (Colorado Springs) and found it interesting that SD would claim that master Th'e was honored with a stone tablet that was erected to commemorate his visit to Shaolin Temple, instead of saying, SD or master Th'e was honored by Shaolin Temple (location of temple) and was allowed to erect a stone tablet in respect of his teachers/lineage. Or, something along that line. Know what I mean?


boy that statement has caused a lot of talk and misinformation. i think it was in fact erected to honor sin the' and his visit. what people just assume and what many sd students have said is "the monks" gave it to them or something like that. i think it is common knowledge how things like that are placed at these shaolin temples and chen village etc ... any way you word it it can be misconstrued ... why do people read so much into things like that. also why do some sd students represent that as the monks honoring sin the instead of what i think it was and that is sin the's students were honoring sin the'.

i know what you mean ...

best,

bruce

[Citong Shifu]

boy that statement has caused a lot of talk and misinformation. i think it was in fact erected to honor sin the' and his visit. what people just assume and what many sd students have said is "the monks" gave it to them or something like that. i think it is common knowledge how things like that are placed at these shaolin temples and chen village etc ... any way you word it it can be misconstrued ... why do people read so much into things like that. also why do some sd students represent that as the monks honoring sin the instead of what i think it was and that is sin the's students were honoring sin the'.

i know what you mean ...

best,

bruce

Hey Bruce, Your right, most CMA affiliates know how things work with Shaolin Temple, but the public at large doesn't. This is where many feel SD is misinforming the public and SD's position within the Shaolin kung fu world...

LOL, we were just talking that the other day at class, Shaolin Temple, not only paying for stone tablets, but paying to light and burn an incent in Shaolin Temple, and this is great, you can pay a monk to say something over your cell phone, to bless it or someone outside of China, lol...

Shaolin Temple is just not the same place anymore. Money, money, money...

[Judge Pen]

thanks man, but it makes me still confused, the anti chinese policies in Indonesia are over , so why don't they now lose the gis and change the name to just shaolin?

My school did, but we are still SD and the outer-trappings are cosmetic only. They don't make us any more or less shaolin. It just makes us look more shaolin. As for the schools that have kept the gis, it is out of tradition and respect for our branches history and tradition. You have to respect that too.

people like this make me very, very , very angry. makes me wanna perform rhinoplasty with my fists.

to be serious, well if they want to continue the shaolin heritage, then all they have to do is lose the gi, loes the "do", invite some real monks to teach, incorporate real forms with applications. just one real shaolin form and they can call themselves shaolin. but..
Ok, define real shaolin. Are you talking about what's being taught at henan now? Or are you talking about bak si lum, hung gar, CLF, or the other hundreds of chinsese arts that claim that they teach shaolin also? When you've figured that out give me a call.

[Judge Pen]

I hear you JP. Dont get me wrong, I'm not against SD just the SD self media/press/claims. SD, or who it may be, places Th'e above all the Shaolin martial arts world in one way or another. SD website after website reinforce his position as the highest authority concerning the various Shaolin Styles. My point is this, There are so many more Shaolin martial art masters that have worked hard to complete their training and achieve high level skill in the Shaolin MA for one guy to claim he has mastered and achieved all :confused:. I would like to see Sin Th'e intermingle with the Chinese masters here in U.S. who have documented history and lineage of the arts (for the most part). Better yet, why hasn't Sin Th'e offered his assitance to the U.S. Shaolin masters, Chinese and non-Chinese?

His claim to be youngest Shaolin GM in history, I can buy that, but only in the context of being GM of his own system/style, SD, not Shaolin Temple kung fu. There are and were too many others Shaolin exponents ahead of him for ST to claim GM... But thats another conversation...

If ST footage can not be produced then how about someone letting us know who and where are the masters teaching SD (ST lineage and other teachers from his masters) outside the U.S. ; China, Indonesia, Mongolia, Taiwan, etc. Surely there's a link back to Indo-China and abroad. There's got to be other school outside of his creation. I would like to research the original schools that still exist over there. I have resources throughout the CMA both here and in China, as well as some of the International Chinese martial art Federations that I belong to.

ST claiming to be GM of his own system is purely his right, but claiming be the only GM that completed and masterd all of the Shaolin Temple arts is just not true.

Who knows where the Indo-China SD schools are and the teachers that teach ST's art? Whatever info you can give would greatly be appreciated.

JP, this post wasn't directed at you, but to /sd in general. I just kinda trailed off, lol... Like I said, I'm not against SD or its members, just the press that is allowed by ST to be posted to the public... He controls all other aspects of SD, why cant he control whats be relayed to the public by his own people and their schools, hmmmm, :confused:.

I hear you, and no offense was taken.

I believe that what ST was taught was represneted to him by his teacher as the most complete collection of the broad spectrum of arts taught in the shaolin temples. Why would he question his teacher. If he didn't question his teacher, then how can he have any more answers then have already been given? He's the youngest master of SD, and yet, GM The's certificate from his teacher identifies him as a Master of the Golden Snake system, not all of shaolin, but he was taught a large and diverse curriculim, so SD is the system that GM The was taught and it includes several different arts--many with shaolin heritiage and some that many would consider outside of shaolin (like tai chi, hsing ie etc). Why is this so offensive when the temple is known to absorb whatever martial material it can to make its own? What is "shaolin" to many people is merely a snapshot of time as to what was shaolin to their teachers' lineage when it left the temple. I think most people will fall somewhere in between.

Simply put, GM The is the Master of Shaolin-do. It is its own creature.

Many of the questions that people have may not ever be answered to their satisfaction because everyone has different levels of satsifaction. For some who believe or want to believe, a simple answer will suffice because, to them, the origin has credibility. To others, unless they see uncontroverted proof of lineage and video of a master in his prime doing amazing feats that cannot be questions, then SD is a fraud.

To each their own, I'm still just going to punch, kick sweat and get better. Oh, I'll keep talking here because its a nice distraction from the "real" world.

[Citong Shifu]

If possible, I would like to attend one of SD's seminars with Sin Th'e. Do You guys have open seminars and allow other styles of cma to attend? I'm not looking to bash on anyones art, just really curious to see what SD is like...

[sean_stonehart]

boy that statement has caused a lot of talk and misinformation. i think it was in fact erected to honor sin the' and his visit. what people just assume and what many sd students have said is "the monks" gave it to them or something like that. i think it is common knowledge how things like that are placed at these shaolin temples and chen village etc ... any way you word it it can be misconstrued ... why do people read so much into things like that. also why do some sd students represent that as the monks honoring sin the instead of what i think it was and that is sin the's students were honoring sin the'.

i know what you mean ...

best,

bruce

Bruce... the problem with the misinformation is there's been no active attempt by anybody to correct/clarify the statements.

The steles at Henan, Fujian (Soards) & Chen Jia Guo (non Soards)were put up by the students. In fact the one in Henan (God I wish I'd taken a picture of that) has a "version 1" carving on the back side of it, facing the the old tree there, stating something about that.

The problem as seen by the general population of CMA practitioners, is the mass marketing machine & outlandish stories have not been curtailed or even toned down, especially with the advent of the 'Net (thanks to Al Gore ;))& all its related world shrinking information sharing. From the 60's to the late 80's early 90's, you didn't have the enormous amount of info available at the stroke a key.

Now you do, now it's fess up time.

If there were an honest, true to life blanket statement concerning the biggest questions & most outlandish claims, I gotta a feeling much of this would disappear.

But that's just me... I keep hoping to win the lottery too...

[Judge Pen]

If possible, I would like to attend one of SD's seminars with Sin Th'e. Do You guys have open seminars and allow other styles of cma to attend? I'm not looking to bash on anyones art, just really curious to see what SD is like...

I don't think any of the seminars are open to a non-student of SD. You could sign up as a white sash, take the basic curriculim and then attend the seminar as a student! :p We used to have open tournaments here in Tennessee, but it was difficult to make money in a small market, so we haven't had them in a while....

[brucereiter]

Bruce... the problem with the misinformation is there's been no active attempt by anybody to correct/clarify the statements.

i think people like jp and myself and a few others are trying to do just that. why some higher ups do not i dont know.



The steles at Henan, Fujian (Soards) & Chen Jia Guo (non Soards)were put up by the students. In fact the one in Henan (God I wish I'd taken a picture of that) has a "version 1" carving on the back side of it, facing the the old tree there, stating something about that.

The problem as seen by the general population of CMA practitioners, is the mass marketing machine & outlandish stories have not been curtailed or even toned down, especially with the advent of the 'Net (thanks to Al Gore ;))& all its related world shrinking information sharing. From the 60's to the late 80's early 90's, you didn't have the enormous amount of info available at the stroke a key.

Now you do, now it's fess up time.

If there were an honest, true to life blanket statement concerning the biggest questions & most outlandish claims, I gotta a feeling much of this would disappear.




But that's just me... I keep hoping to win the lottery too...
now that would be cool ... then you could buy a stele to honor al gore for inventing the internet and place it at shoalin temple lol ... that would be cool :-)


also here is another tablet:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/DSC00616.jpg

and in reference to the japan questions a few post back why are look at the weapons rack and figure out the weapon many have used on this thread to say sd in japanese karate, what is a sai doing at the shaolin temple :-)http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/WeaponRackcloseup.jpg

[chiballsoffire]

Here's the link to the main SD site and the certificate:

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/GMcertificate.jpg

Here's what it says:

Graduate Certificate

Mr. Zheng Zhong-Guang, age 20, a native of FuQing County, Fujian Province, has continuously studied and completed martial arts studies and practices for 10 years, covering 3 courses at Zhong Yuan Shaolin Martial Arts School. These courses are:
• From 1954 to 1955, the Class of Basics (Given Level-One Black Belt) [Dan 1]
• From 1956 to 1958, the Class of Middle Rank (Given Level-Two Black Belt) [Dan 2]
• From 1959 to 1963, the Class of Ace (Given Level-Five Black Belt) [Dan 5]

When verified, this certificate provides that the said student has passed all exams, and is graduated. During the past ten years, he also minored in: 1) JinSheQuan (Golden Snake Boxing); 2) QuanFengTui (Cyclone Kick); 3) TieZhiGong (Iron Finger Gongfu). These 3 courses are esoteric martial arts, and he excels in all. He also followed school rules and participated in all series of open competitions at school for distinction of excellence, and won all the top titles, and is honored with the Medal of Wu Tao (Medal of Martial Art and Tao). This Certificate serves as proof of all above merits.

Zhong Yuan Shaolin Martial Arts School (Seal)
Yu Chang-Ming (Seal) – Master of Iron Palm
Founder and Principal

Given on this fifteenth day of January, nineteen hundred sixty-four

Have Fun!

[brucereiter]

If possible, I would like to attend one of SD's seminars with Sin Th'e. Do You guys have open seminars and allow other styles of cma to attend? I'm not looking to bash on anyones art, just really curious to see what SD is like...

i am not sure about the sin the seminars ... i think jp has that right. i have never gotten much out of seminars as a matter of fact of the 3 i have done i cant even get threw the forms let alone say i have any skill with them. i am a slow learner lol.

if you are interested i am sure my teacher would be happy to meet and exchange with you ... if you are ever in st pete fl ...

let me know i will introduce you.

best,

bruce

[Citong Shifu]

I don't think any of the seminars are open to a non-student of SD. You could sign up as a white sash, take the basic curriculim and then attend the seminar as a student! :p We used to have open tournaments here in Tennessee, but it was difficult to make money in a small markey, so we haven't had them in a while....


LOL! :D. Its not that big of a deal. I was just curious. I thought it would be interesting to see what if any differences between my shaolin styles compared to SD style... Not meaning actual style, but posture, principles of execution, etc... Maybe some of you peeps can get with me. I live in So. Illinois, Tennessee is not that far away, maybe something can be arranged. Of course, if I head in that direction I'll have to stop by Jim's pong lai mantis school as well, lol... If not, I may get a nasty email, lol....

Anywho, talk at you guys later.

[Citong Shifu]

i am not sure about the sin the seminars ... i think jp has that right. i have never gotten much out of seminars as a matter of fact of the 3 i have done i cant even get threw the forms let alone say i have any skill with them. i am a slow learner lol.

if you are interested i am sure my teacher would be happy to meet and exchange with you ... if you are ever in st pete fl ...

let me know i will introduce you.

best,

bruce

Cool! I'll let you know if or when I get down that way.

Ron.

[brucereiter]

Here's the link to the main SD site and the certificate:

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/GMcertificate.jpg

Here's what it says:

Graduate Certificate

Mr. Zheng Zhong-Guang, age 20, a native of FuQing County, Fujian Province, has continuously studied and completed martial arts studies and practices for 10 years, covering 3 courses at Zhong Yuan Shaolin Martial Arts School. These courses are:
• From 1954 to 1955, the Class of Basics (Given Level-One Black Belt) [Dan 1]
• From 1956 to 1958, the Class of Middle Rank (Given Level-Two Black Belt) [Dan 2]
• From 1959 to 1963, the Class of Ace (Given Level-Five Black Belt) [Dan 5]

When verified, this certificate provides that the said student has passed all exams, and is graduated. During the past ten years, he also minored in: 1) JinSheQuan (Golden Snake Boxing); 2) QuanFengTui (Cyclone Kick); 3) TieZhiGong (Iron Finger Gongfu). These 3 courses are esoteric martial arts, and he excels in all. He also followed school rules and participated in all series of open competitions at school for distinction of excellence, and won all the top titles, and is honored with the Medal of Wu Tao (Medal of Martial Art and Tao). This Certificate serves as proof of all above merits.

Zhong Yuan Shaolin Martial Arts School (Seal)
Yu Chang-Ming (Seal) – Master of Iron Palm
Founder and Principal

Given on this fifteenth day of January, nineteen hundred sixty-four

Have Fun!

since you put that up ... here is a more clear copy and translation.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1sintherankcert-05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/diploma.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1sintherankcert-05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/diploma.jpg

[sean_stonehart]

i think people like jp and myself and a few others are trying to do just that. why some higher ups do not i dont know.


I know Bruce. You & JP the others with level heads enough are to be commended. However, the ones that "count" have chosen to remain silent or draw an unnecssary & possibly misleading "veil of secrecy" around questions that if answered would bleed off questioning.

Remember... You & JP are (I was) all "entry level mgmt" there.




now that would be cool ... then you could buy a stele to honor al gore for inventing the internet and place it at shoalin temple lol ... that would be cool :-)

Screw AlG. I'd buy one for me commemorating me winning!!!!!!



also here is another tablet:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/DSC00616.jpg


Yeah that's the one in Chen Village I think.



and in reference to the japan questions a few post back why are look at the weapons rack and figure out the weapon many have used on this thread to say sd in japanese karate, what is a sai doing at the shaolin temple :-)
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/WeaponRackcloseup.jpg

Yep... they're sai, although in Southern China known as (among other names) Iron Rulers. They're found in Ngo Cho Kuen, Fujianese Crane (some of them), etc... not a big shocker to see since they're in Fujian.

[Judge Pen]

LOL! :D. Its not that big of a deal. I was just curious. I thought it would be interesting to see what if any differences between my shaolin styles compared to SD style... Not meaning actual style, but posture, principles of execution, etc... Maybe some of you peeps can get with me. I live in So. Illinois, Tennessee is not that far away, maybe something can be arranged. Of course, if I head in that direction I'll have to stop by Jim's pong lai mantis school as well, lol... If not, I may get a nasty email, lol....

Anywho, talk at you guys later.

Jim's a class act. I've trained with them and crossed hands with one of his students. Good stuff all the way around. Let me know if and when you're down. Nashville's only a couple of hours away.

[kwaichang]

What you talking about willis, I mean Sean ???? KC

[Toby]

Here's the link to the main SD site and the certificate:

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/GMcertificate.jpg

Here's what it says:

Graduate Certificate

Mr. Zheng Zhong-Guang, age 20, a native of FuQing County, Fujian Province, has continuously studied and completed martial arts studies and practices for 10 years, covering 3 courses at Zhong Yuan Shaolin Martial Arts School. These courses are:
• From 1954 to 1955, the Class of Basics (Given Level-One Black Belt) [Dan 1]
• From 1956 to 1958, the Class of Middle Rank (Given Level-Two Black Belt) [Dan 2]
• From 1959 to 1963, the Class of Ace (Given Level-Five Black Belt) [Dan 5]

When verified, this certificate provides that the said student has passed all exams, and is graduated. During the past ten years, he also minored in: 1) JinSheQuan (Golden Snake Boxing); 2) QuanFengTui (Cyclone Kick); 3) TieZhiGong (Iron Finger Gongfu). These 3 courses are esoteric martial arts, and he excels in all. He also followed school rules and participated in all series of open competitions at school for distinction of excellence, and won all the top titles, and is honored with the Medal of Wu Tao (Medal of Martial Art and Tao). This Certificate serves as proof of all above merits.

Zhong Yuan Shaolin Martial Arts School (Seal)
Yu Chang-Ming (Seal) – Master of Iron Palm
Founder and Principal

Given on this fifteenth day of January, nineteen hundred sixty-four

Have Fun!So he started at 10 years old and learned for 10 years? And in that time learnt 900 forms, so 90 a year. And he's the Grandmaster of all Shaolin and a bunch of other non-Shaolin styles? O.K.

[NJM]

so 90 a year.

If this is true, The would have to be a super-genius or a savant (no, fools, not autistic people).

[kwaichang]

Wow NJM you are right. Good job you win the prize KC

[NJM]

Wow NJM you are right. Good job you win the prize KC

Ah, kwai, you and your sarcasm...

[bawang]

Ok, define real shaolin. Are you talking about what's being taught at henan now? Or are you talking about bak si lum, hung gar, CLF, or the other hundreds of chinsese arts that claim that they teach shaolin also? When you've figured that out give me a call.
myself haven't seen any south fist places claiming to be directly from shaolin, only shaolin do and a wing chun place.

i'm talking about Henan shaolin. Even if their stuff changes, they are still Shaolin. Even if they don't teach kung fu they are still Shaolin.

if you claim real shaolin, where is your qigong. where is the iron training. where is the chan buddhism.

even if shaolin do is fake that's okay with me, everybody needs to make a living. i just think to claim diresclty from shaolin you at least need some SKILLS.

[sean_stonehart]

What you talking about willis, I mean Sean ???? KC

Dunno... do you understand the words that are coming out of my mowf???

I thought I typed in pretty straight forward English. I didn't even use my native Southern so it oughta be ok een on the other side of the pond.

[brucereiter]

So he started at 10 years old and learned for 10 years? And in that time learnt 900 forms, so 90 a year. And he's the Grandmaster of all Shaolin and a bunch of other non-Shaolin styles? O.K.

those are not the facts. please do not add to the confusion ... if you have a question ask it but do not help in the spreading of mis information.

below is a basic time line of shaolin do the way i understand it. if anyone would like to correct any mistake and also add any information please do.

1880 ie chang ming was born in fukien province. At some point entered the shaolin temple and then followed su kong tai jin into the mountains.
1881
1882
1883
1884
1885
1886
1887
1888
1889
1890
1891
1892
1893
1894
1895
1896
1897
1898
1899
1900
1901
1902
1903
1904
1905
1906
1907
1908
1909
1910
1911 ching dynasty falls, some time after ie chand ming kills ching soldiers and flees to bandung indonesia. (may have left after 1928 since ie is said to have studied with su kong until his death???)
1912
1913
1914
1915
1916
1917
1918
1919
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
1926
1927
1928
1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943 sin kwang the' born in bandung indonesia
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948 hiang kwang the born in bandung indonesia/ sin kwang the' began sandburn training for 6 months
1949
1950 sin kwang the started to study at ie chang mings school "central shaolin wushu school" in bandung
1951
1952
1953
1954 sin kwang the studied "lower school"
1955 sin kwang the studied "lower school" and awarded black belt level 1
1956 sin kwang the studied "middle school"
1957 sin kwang the studied "middle school"
1958 sin kwang the studied "middle school" and awarded black belt level 3 /some time around 15 years old sin the meets "master wu" and is introduced to internal.
1959 sin kwang the studied "upper school"
1960 sin kwang the studied "upper school"
1961 sin kwang the studied "upper school"
1962 sin kwang the studied "upper school"
1963 sin kwang the studied "upper school"
1964 sin kwang the awarded black belt level 5. sin kwang the moved to lexington ky to start college. Same year he starts teaching shaolin in lexington.
1965
1966
1967
1968 ie chang ming awarded sin kwang the 10th degree red belt grandmaster/1968 mideast national tournament, bill walace competed.
1969
1970
1971 national karate grand championship sat sept 18 1971 u.k. coliseum
1972
1973
1974
1975
1976 ie chang ming dies in bandung indonesia/some claim he died in 1968.
1977
1978 sin kwang the opens the "sports center" according to the trademark records the first use of the phrase "shaolin do" was used in 1978
1979
1980 sin the created a video tape that was used to catalog his material for and eventual copyright
1981
1982
1983
1984
1985
1986 sr master gary grooms opens a chinese shaolin center in atlanta the sign read "shaolin martial arts" + "kung fu-tai chi" grandmaster sin saw the sign and said he teachs shaolin karate.
1987
1988
1989
1990 aug 9 1990 sin kwang the registered for a copyright on the material presented in his system. the claim limit is "selection and ordering of exercises"
1991
1992 july 1 1992, sin the attends a event in bandung to honor him and ie chang ming's peers presented sin the with a case containing some of ie chang mings possessions including many notes and books about various martial arts. (i do not know any names of ie chang mings peers who were there maybe someone can help)
i think this is where a great deal of the material came from.
1993
1994 ?? System is named "shaolin do" ?? But may have been called "shaolin do" some time before.
1995 sin kwang the and james halladay release the book "shaolin do secrets from the temple"
1996
1997
1998
1999
2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010

[brucereiter]

myself haven't seen any south fist places claiming to be directly from shaolin, only shaolin do and a wing chun place.

i'm talking about Henan shaolin. Even if their stuff changes, they are still Shaolin. Even if they don't teach kung fu they are still Shaolin.

if you claim real shaolin, where is your qigong. where is the iron training. where is the chan buddhism.

even if shaolin do is fake that's okay with me, everybody needs to make a living. i just think to claim diresclty from shaolin you at least need some SKILLS.

shein tein chi and hou tein chi and i chin ching i think are the foundational chi kung practices in shaolin do. so there they are ...

iron training is also a big part of the training ... some of the guys make their own jow etc and some buy it ... i do not do this practice but i have watched others train it and the method seems similar to other systems of shaolin.

from what i understand sin kwang the is a Christian. some who practice are Buddhist but that part of shaolin is not taught. i think it is better not to argue religion on the net.

keep looking and you will hear many claims from many groups that all contradict one another :-)

please ask more questions,

best

bruce

p.s. these are my opinions and the facts as i understand them. i could be wrong :-)

[Toby]

those are not the facts. please do not add to the confusion ... if you have a question ask it but do not help in the spreading of mis information.Sorry, I was just going off the certificate information that was posted. On that apparently it said he was 20 and had been learning for 10 years.

Also, the common story is he knows 900 forms:


In Shaolin Do, this body of knowledge is almost limitless, as Grandmaster Thé constantly reveals new training and forms from the 900-plus Shaolin forms he has mastered.

And again, maybe I'm wrong but I thought one of the main bones of contention was his claims to be the only Grandmaster of Shaolin. E.g.:

Su Kong was therefore able to complete every branch of Shaolin training, learning and mastering hundreds of forms and disciplines. It was an unparalleled achievement. [Usually the 10 Grandmasters of the temple each learned 1/10th of the Shaolin art].
...
From Grandmaster Su Kong it passed to Grandmaster Ie-Chang Ming, and now resides with our current Grandmaster, Sin Kwang Thé.Implying that SD contains more than any other individual Grandmaster commonly knew.

So am I misunderstanding something?

[bawang]

shein tein chi and hou tein chi and i chin ching i think are the foundational chi kung practices in shaolin do. so there they are ...

iron training is also a big part of the training ... some of the guys make their own jow etc and some buy it ... i do not do this practice but i have watched others train it and the method seems similar to other systems of shaolin.

from what i understand sin kwang the is a Christian. some who practice are Buddhist but that part of shaolin is not taught. i think it is better not to argue religion on the net.

keep looking and you will hear many claims from many groups that all contradict one another :-)

please ask more questions,

best

bruce

p.s. these are my opinions and the facts as i understand them. i could be wrong :-)

well it's good that at least some people in shaolin do are trying to make a difference. it seem quality in shaolin do is varied. one in my old city was very bad.

i'm christian too. because i am a christian i won't learn shaolin, out of respect for shaolin. shaolin is nothing without buddhism. then it would be a collection of 900 year old chinese military drills.
since mister sin the is christian, it would be rude of him to teach a buddhist martial art. he shouldn've claimed direct lineage from Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.
the taiping rebellion was awesome. jesus inspired kung fu

[brucereiter]

Sorry, I was just going off the certificate information that was posted. On that apparently it said he was 20 and had been learning for 10 years.
i dont think the cert refers to the # 900 ...



Also, the common story is he knows 900 forms:

this is what he claims i have heard him say on video "i am master of 900 form"
i think that a good number of the 900 forms we given to him in 1992 from a peer of ie chang ming in indonisia, i could be mistaken.



And again, maybe I'm wrong but I thought one of the main bones of contention was his claims to be the only Grandmaster of Shaolin. E.g.:
Implying that SD contains more than any other individual Grandmaster commonly knew.
i am sure sin kwang the claims no authority over any shaolin monk or any temple.

i do not know if i have heard him say he is the only grandmaster of shaolin. i have heard many sd students express that opinion.

i think there are many people who can truly claim the title. i have heard of a few current traditional shaolin monks who practice 400 or more forms i posted a thread about one of them last year after reading about it in kung fu magazine.

sd does have a larger set of material than any system i know of. so i dont know if that claim is off or not.

i really can comment much on the legends about su kong tai jin, even sin kwang the would have to take another mans word about that.

the history/facts of exactly how all the material was introduced to ie chang ming is unknown to me.



So am I misunderstanding something?
i hope these comments shed a little light and cause you to ask more questions.
it is a very unclear history so i try to only talk about things i think are true.

best,

bruce

[brucereiter]

well it's good that at least some people in shaolin do are trying to make a difference. it seem quality in shaolin do is varied. one in my old city was very bad.

i'm christian too. because i am a christian i won't learn shaolin, out of respect for shaolin. shaolin is nothing without buddhism. then it would be a collection of 900 year old chinese military drills.
since mister sin the is christian, it would be rude of him to teach a buddhist martial art. he shouldn've claimed direct lineage from Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.
the taiping rebellion was awesome. jesus inspired kung fu

i think most chinese martial arts were inspired buy taoism or buddhism. i think there are very few "shaolin" schools that are religious organizations.

in a nut shell.

the four noble truths:
1 there is birth pain suffering old age and death
2 desire is the cause of suffering
3 extinction of desire ceases pain and suffering
4 the eight fold path is the route to the extinction of desire and freedom from suffering

the eight fold path:
right view
right thought
right speech
right action
right livelihood
right effort
right mindfulness
right meditation

[brucereiter]

thanks man, but it makes me still confused, the anti chinese policies in Indonesia are over , so why don't they now lose the gis and change the name to just shaolin?


i do not think there are any laws about that anymore but i do know first hand the some people from indonisia do not like the chinese being in their country.

when i was in jakarta in 2004 i spoke to many people about this subject 2 common things i heard are "chinese should go back to china" and "chinese people stink"

this is recently so i can imagine it could have been pretty bad at some point.

[tattooedmonk]

well it's good that at least some people in shaolin do are trying to make a difference. it seem quality in shaolin do is varied. one in my old city was very bad.

i'm christian too. because i am a christian i won't learn shaolin, out of respect for shaolin. shaolin is nothing without buddhism. then it would be a collection of 900 year old chinese military drills.
since mister sin the is christian, it would be rude of him to teach a buddhist martial art. he shouldn've claimed direct lineage from Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.
the taiping rebellion was awesome. jesus inspired kung fuwhy would your Christian beliefs interfer with your practices of Shaolin??

This is closed minded thinking.

However ,if SD and CSC taught more of the Buddhist , Taoist ,and Confucian philosophy they would not have a great deal of the inner turmoil that they do.

The arts were based on the philosophies and divorcing the arts from them because of the previous religious connections is absurd.You can not teach the arts properly without them.

If they were all Buddhist in Shaolin they never would have been teaching military arts , they would have just been teaching basic self defense, they taught the killing arts . Buddhist would not be able to learn let alone commit such an act, now would they?.

Not all the warriors were monks or priest . Many of them were retired military men and some criminals of the state , etc.Many of them pretended to be so they could maintain their freedom and hide from the powers that be.

As for the name and the uniform. What is the difference? The name indicates what the style represents " The Way of Shaolin". Bruce Lees' Jeet Kune Do "The Way of the Intercepting Fist . No one has changed it to just Jeet kune Or Jeet Kune Tao either.The Gi is part of the traditions established in the original school in Indonesia. Some of the schools have changed them but not all ( not to mention this would P I S S off a few people) How hard can you train in a pair of silk pajamas anyway??:0)

and whether it is pronounced Tao or Do it is still the same character.

[Judge Pen]

myself haven't seen any south fist places claiming to be directly from shaolin, only shaolin do and a wing chun place.

i'm talking about Henan shaolin. Even if their stuff changes, they are still Shaolin. Even if they don't teach kung fu they are still Shaolin.

if you claim real shaolin, where is your qigong. where is the iron training. where is the chan buddhism.

even if shaolin do is fake that's okay with me, everybody needs to make a living. i just think to claim diresclty from shaolin you at least need some SKILLS.

There you go, you've limited your definition. So you discredit wing chun's claim of shaolin lineage? How about bak si lum, hung gar or CLF? As far as Henan, you're right--anything they teach has the official "shaolin" seal of approval, but its changed over time, has it not? Many schools that claim lineage to shaolin only claim that heritage for the material that was taught at a particular time when their lineage's diverged from shaolin. That's what SD is doing as well. Whatever claim they have to the temples (keep in mind, they claim that many martial temples were under the banner of shaolin--a concept not unknown to the martial community outside of SD--and SDs material is a snapshot of what was taught when SD's fukien temple allegedly burned).

And we train chi kung and iron training.... we don't teach any chan---we stick to marital principals, but I see that's already been noted.

[Judge Pen]

well it's good that at least some people in shaolin do are trying to make a difference. it seem quality in shaolin do is varied. one in my old city was very bad.

i'm christian too. because i am a christian i won't learn shaolin, out of respect for shaolin. shaolin is nothing without buddhism. then it would be a collection of 900 year old chinese military drills.
since mister sin the is christian, it would be rude of him to teach a buddhist martial art. he shouldn've claimed direct lineage from Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.
the taiping rebellion was awesome. jesus inspired kung fu

:confused: Were'nt the monks buddhist before they learned their martial principals? If its just a collection of military excercises that are effective in training health and self-defense then isn't that enough?

I'm a christian too, but I don't see it wrong to be respectful of certain concepts and learn arts that were based, in part, on religious or philosophical concepts that I don't necessarily share.

Jesus inspired kung fu? All kung fu or just your kung fu? :confused:

[Baqualin]

myself haven't seen any south fist places claiming to be directly from shaolin, only shaolin do and a wing chun place.

i'm talking about Henan shaolin. Even if their stuff changes, they are still Shaolin. Even if they don't teach kung fu they are still Shaolin.

if you claim real shaolin, where is your qigong. where is the iron training. where is the chan buddhism.

even if shaolin do is fake that's okay with me, everybody needs to make a living. i just think to claim diresclty from shaolin you at least need some SKILLS.

No chan...but fantastic iron training.....qiqong, Bruce left out 8 pathways and the 5 animal frolic's and more depending on the teacher:cool:
BQ

[brucereiter]

No chan...but fantastic iron training.....qiqong, Bruce left out 8 pathways and the 5 animal frolic's and more depending on the teacher:cool:
BQ

hi bagualin,

yeah 5 animals is a good practice too ... tell me about 8 path ways? i dont think i know that one by that name anyways ...



best,

bruce

[MasterKiller]

I just wanted to say Happy Birthday to my favorite SD'er, themeecer! I know you still peak at this thread! ;)

[bawang]

hi im here for the gangbang




this is recently so i can imagine it could have been pretty bad at some point.
i think in 96 there was a massacre.

why would your Christian beliefs interfer with your practices of Shaolin??

.....

The arts were based on the philosophies and divorcing the arts from them because of the previous religious connections is absurd.You can not teach the arts properly without them. .
you contradicted yourself.

If they were all Buddhist in Shaolin they never would have been teaching military arts , they would have just been teaching basic self defense, they taught the killing arts . Buddhist would not be able to learn let alone commit such an act, now would they?..
shaolin is not an orthodox buddhist sect.


As for the name and the uniform. What is the difference? i dunno, the japanese and chinese people are pretty friendly these days right? :rolleyes:

[bawang]

There you go, you've limited your definition. So you discredit wing chun's claim of shaolin lineage? .
YES.

How about bak si lum, hung gar or CLF?.
no.

As far as Henan, you're right--anything they teach has the official "shaolin" seal of approval, but its changed over time, has it not? Many schools that claim lineage to shaolin only claim that heritage for the material that was taught at a particular time when their lineage's diverged from shaolin. That's what SD is doing as well. Whatever claim they have to the temples (keep in mind, they claim that many martial temples were under the banner of shaolin--a concept not unknown to the martial community outside of SD--and SDs material is a snapshot of what was taught when SD's fukien temple allegedly burned.
henan shaolin is the oldest shaolin temple and only one remaining in china. therfore they have authoristy.


And we train chi kung and iron training.... we don't teach any chan---we stick to marital principals, but I see that's already been noted.
then you are doing kung fu but not shaolin kung fu.
my problem is i haven't seen anybody from shaolin do any different from any other kung fu place. if you calim shaolin then you have to be unusually good and stand out. but you don't


Jesus inspired kung fu? All kung fu or just your kung fu? :confused:
it called the taiping rebellion and lasted ten years

[Golden Tiger]

yeah 5 animals is a good practice too ... tell me about 8 path ways? i dont think i know that one by that name anyways ...



8 pathways of immortality is what I think he is refering to. Follows up on Shien Tien Chi. Meditation pathways through the different points that make you feel all good and stuff.

[bawang]

:confused: Were'nt the monks buddhist before they learned their martial principals? If its just a collection of military excercises that are effective in training health and self-defense then isn't that enough?.
erm it's something to do with reaching spiritual enlightenment through martial arts. you have to have chan to be shaolin.even if the monks do BJJ they can still be shaolin if they practice chan. its the combine of spiritual and martal.
EDIT of course i'm talking about long ago, in galaxy far away.

:I'm a christian too, but I don't see it wrong to be respectful of certain concepts and learn arts that were based, in part, on religious or philosophical concepts that I don't necessarily share.
then you are influenced or inspired by shaolin but not directly from shaolin. hehehehe got you

[MasterKiller]

First of all, Shaolin warrior monks are not necessarily buddhist. They take different vows.

Second of all, styles that left the Temple and were practiced in hiding are a sh1tload more authentic than what's going on in Henen right now.

Third of all, Shaolin always encouraged adaptation and change so it's reasonable to expect modern off-shoots to differ wildly from their original base.

[bawang]

First of all, Shaolin warrior monks are not necessarily buddhist. They take different vows.

Second of all, styles that left the Temple and were practiced in hiding are a sh1tload more authentic than what's going on in Henen right now.

Third of all, Shaolin always encouraged adaptation and change so it's reasonable to expect modern off-shoots to differ wildly from their original base.

yo masterkiller, i agree with you but i'm talking about the "old" days when both military and scholar monks had to participate in buddhism.
and i didn't say south fists don't come from shaolin, i said its possible they did. (you can see some technique and footwork) but shaolin-do? ...
lastly yeh henan temple makes a lot of money teaching modern wushu, but that doesn't mean they don't teach authentic shaolin.

[tattooedmonk]

you contradicted yourself.

No , I did not .I am refering to the philosophies not the religions

[tattooedmonk]

i dunno, the japanese and chinese people are pretty friendly these days right? :rolleyes:what is the difference whether the "gi" and the term "do" are used ? answer the question.

[bawang]

what is the difference whether the "gi" and the term "do" are used ? answer the question.
its japanese.
you go to shang hai or beijing, these "hip" banana basterds will say yeah yeah friendship peace yeh no hostility. if you go outside of those cities that kiss foreigner's asses though...you get blood boiling and fist clenching..huh..

ok ok, what makes shaolin for you?

[MasterKiller]

yo masterkiller, i agree with you but i'm talking about the "old" days when both military and scholar monks had to participate in buddhism.
This is not the old days, anymore. Any training post-1928 is going to be different than anything pre-1928, for obvious reasons.


and i didn't say south fists don't come from shaolin, i said its possible they did. (you can see some technique and footwork) but shaolin-do? Well, SD has some Southern forms, like Tiger Crane. So, if Hung Gar is Shaolin based, then SD's Tiger Crane has to give them some Shaolin connection. The real question is how did it get into SD in the first place...



lastly yeh henan temple makes a lot of money teaching modern wushu, but that doesn't mean they don't teach authentic shaolin.
Most of the "authentic" Shaolin they teach was brought back from the villages, where the real stuff was kept and spread.


its japanese.
you go to shang hai or beijing, these "hip" banana basterds will say yeah yeah friendship peace yeh no hostility. if you go outside of those cities that kiss foreigner's asses though...

Actually, "DO" is Cantonese. Shaolin is Mandarin. So, asking why the mix of Mandarin and Cantonese is really a more valid question.

In the pictures I have from WhiteEarp, they aren't training in Karate Gis. I know there are pics of Sin and Hwang as teenagers wearing Gis, though (in one of the pdfs on shaolingrandmaster.com I think), so who knows if they even used them outside of tournaments...

[tattooedmonk]

erm it's something to do with reaching spiritual enlightenment through martial arts. you have to have chan to be shaolin.even if the monks do BJJ they can still be shaolin if they practice chan. its the combine of spiritual and martal.
EDIT of course i'm talking about long ago, in galaxy far away.

then you are influenced or inspired by shaolin but not directly from shaolin. hehehehe got you
The Way of Shaolin (Shaolin Do) Has absorbed teachings from inside and outside the temples. It is a collection of over 1500 years of martial arts teaching in China. As passed on By GMSKT.Your ideas of what is and what is not is slightly distorted.

[bawang]

Actually, "DO" is Cantonese. Shaolin is Mandarin. So, asking why the mix of Mandarin and Cantonese is really a more valid question.

well that's easy to explain, language variation. my jiangsu village dialect would be so-lin do. the village right next to us would be sio-ning do.

gangbang aside, my point is that
i think no one has the authority to call themselves shaolin unless they train the way pre 1928.
the henan shaolin temple. it's authority is questionable but at least it is the real shaolin temple (although rebuilt) right? at least they train hard, even modern whushu people in china train ten times harder than trad kung fu westerners here. at lesat they have somehting in common:both can't fight for sh1t

[tattooedmonk]

its japanese.
you go to shang hai or beijing, these "hip" banana basterds will say yeah yeah friendship peace yeh no hostility. if you go outside of those cities that kiss foreigner's asses though...you get blood boiling and fist clenching..huh..

ok ok, what makes shaolin for you?Whatever. And where did most of the Japanese culture come from just prior to the modern era??
U still did not answer the question. Lets not forget that we are in America and the history surounding SD.

[Citong Shifu]

Jim's a class act. I've trained with them and crossed hands with one of his students. Good stuff all the way around. Let me know if and when you're down. Nashville's only a couple of hours away.

Sounds good to me JP. I'm thinking sometime around the 1st of the year. Give or take a month, lol...

RD

[tattooedmonk]

well that's easy to explain, language variation. my jiangsu village dialect would be so-lin do. the village right next to us would be sio-ning do.

gangbang aside, my point is that
i think no one has the authority to call themselves shaolin unless they train the way pre 1928.
the henan shaolin temple. it's authority is questionable but at least it is the shaolin temple right? at least they train hard, even modern whushu people in china train ten times harder than trad kung fu westerners here.shaolin is just a name .So you think westerneers do not take training serious??

[bawang]

Whatever. And where did most of the Japanese culture come from just prior to the modern era??
U still did not answer the question. Lets not forget that we are in America and the history surounding SD.

the answer is culture divide between chinese and japanese. i asume your question was what's wrong with the gis and the do.


shaolin is just a name ..
that name is very important.


So you think westerneers do not take training serious??
in traditional kung fu, not a lot.

[tattooedmonk]

the answer is culture divide between chinese and japanese. i asume your question was what's wrong with the gis and the do.

.
that name is very important.

in traditional kung fu, not a lot. and why is it that there is this divide??

Nothing is wrong with the name or the uniform. The name is important to a certain degree but not enough to get al worked up about .

I personally train very hard , as well as my students.

[bawang]

and why is it that there is this divide??

Nothing is wrong with the name or the uniform. The name is important to a certain degree but not enough to get al worked up about ..



ok then we can agree to disagree right? i just think if you got shaolin in your name , then you need to put lots of work in. that's tuff to do with kung fu.


I personally train very hard , as well as my students.
ok good luck mister, but remeber please, "train hard" is a relative term these days. people often think they train hard but there is always another level.

[BM2]

Pre mullet pic ;) http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g188/nameisunavailable/GMThe.jpg

[bodhi warrior]

I noticed that GMst is going to teach the golden leopard again. A question for those who took it the last time, what did you think of the material and the seminar method of teaching?

[Judge Pen]

In the pictures I have from WhiteEarp, they aren't training in Karate Gis. I know there are pics of Sin and Hwang as teenagers wearing Gis, though (in one of the pdfs on shaolingrandmaster.com I think), so who knows if they even used them outside of tournaments...

Tease.

And thanks for stepping in and making some of the points I was failing to make.

[Judge Pen]

well that's easy to explain, language variation. my jiangsu village dialect would be so-lin do. the village right next to us would be sio-ning do.

gangbang aside, my point is that
i think no one has the authority to call themselves shaolin unless they train the way pre 1928.
the henan shaolin temple. it's authority is questionable but at least it is the real shaolin temple (although rebuilt) right? at least they train hard, even modern whushu people in china train ten times harder than trad kung fu westerners here. at lesat they have somehting in common:both can't fight for sh1t


Ok, then by your definition almost no one in the world practices shaolin.
That's the good thing about deninitions, they can always be changed based on the persepctive.

[Judge Pen]

I noticed that GMst is going to teach the golden leopard again. A question for those who took it the last time, what did you think of the material and the seminar method of teaching?

I'm not a big fan of learning material in a seminar--its usually too much information to digest in one sitting and I spend most of the time following the seminar teaching myself. The best "seminar" form I've learned in SD took 5 days of 4 hour classes a day (while in Hawaii). It was the right amount of time to digest a long and complicated form under direct supervision.

Specifically about the Leopards, I havent' developed a true appreciation for them yet. They are unique forms with some nice hand and feet combonations which target very specific areas so I can see the benefit in training both speed and accuracy. The footwork and philosphy is a bit aggressive and direct which normally I like, but I had trouble getting into the grove. I intend to spend some more time reviewing them once I get through my test. Right now, I'm worried about surviving that!

[KungFu Student]

I'm not a big fan of learning material in a seminar--its usually too much information to digest in one sitting and I spend most of the time following the seminar teaching myself. The best "seminar" form I've learned in SD took 5 days of 4 hour classes a day (while in Hawaii). It was the right amount of time to digest a long and complicated form under direct supervision.

Specifically about the Leopards, I havent' developed a true appreciation for them yet. They are unique forms with some nice hand and feet combonations which target very specific areas so I can see the benefit in training both speed and accuracy. The footwork and philosphy is a bit aggressive and direct which normally I like, but I had trouble getting into the grove. I intend to spend some more time reviewing them once I get through my test. Right now, I'm worried about surviving that!

I agree 100%. I have been to several seminars, and it takes me more than a couple of hours to get the form down to a point where I can practice it on my own. There are those who can pick up a form by seeing it done a few times, but I am not one of them.:o Being only 2nd brown, I think I will stick to my required material and lay off of the seminars for a bit.

I did like the Golden Leopard form though, at least the 1st road, which is all I have seen so far. At least there are several fellow students at my school who have the form down enough that they can help me remember it!

[Chain Whip]

Bruce... the problem with the misinformation is there's been no active attempt by anybody to correct/clarify the statements.

I'm not sure I would agree with that assessment Sean. I think some of the school’s websites have avoided making the claims you speak of. If you can find any mention of the 900 forms, or Shaolin Grandmaster instead of Shaolin-Tao Grandmaster or claims about the markers at the temples on the Atlanta site - http://www.shaolincenter.com/index.htm please point them out and I’ll bet Bruce could mention them to Master Grooms and it would be changed. I would also say that Master Grooms would agree with the positions that JP and Bruce have stated here. That may not be “active” enough for you, but I don’t know what else he can really do.

[Baqualin]

I'm not sure I would agree with that assessment Sean. I think some of the school’s websites have avoided making the claims you speak of. If you can find any mention of the 900 forms, or Shaolin Grandmaster instead of Shaolin-Tao Grandmaster or claims about the markers at the temples on the Atlanta site - http://www.shaolincenter.com/index.htm please point them out and I’ll bet Bruce could mention them to Master Grooms and it would be changed. I would also say that Master Grooms would agree with the positions that JP and Bruce have stated here. That may not be “active” enough for you, but I don’t know what else he can really do.

Hey CW,
Your correct, the SDA site makes no claims...neither does the Lexington schools web site:).
BQ

[sean_stonehart]

I'm not sure I would agree with that assessment Sean. I think some of the school’s websites have avoided making the claims you speak of. If you can find any mention of the 900 forms, or Shaolin Grandmaster instead of Shaolin-Tao Grandmaster or claims about the markers at the temples on the Atlanta site - http://www.shaolincenter.com/index.htm please point them out and I’ll bet Bruce could mention them to Master Grooms and it would be changed. I would also say that Master Grooms would agree with the positions that JP and Bruce have stated here. That may not be “active” enough for you, but I don’t know what else he can really do.

That could be for Atlanta (or even some), but that's just one(few) of many & does not too much to quell the years of stories & what not perpetuated by organization as a whole.

As to the number of forms & stele in Henan, I know the book has mention of one if not both of them in it, but I don't have a copy handy or have looked at it in years so I'm not comfortable in making any statements based on what it contains.

[sean_stonehart]

Hey CW,
Your correct, the SDA site makes no claims...neither does the Lexington schools web site:).
BQ


Psst... that's just a couple... there are more than a couple of schools... ;) :D

[Baqualin]

I noticed that GMst is going to teach the golden leopard again. A question for those who took it the last time, what did you think of the material and the seminar method of teaching?

First I love the seminars....it's great to have everyone together for a day....kinda neat to spend time with SDers you normally never see. As far as learning a form in one day...I'm not able to do that.....some of the young guys can...not me....I do take notes & get the basic introduction which makes it easier to break it down later and at our school the upper masters spend one day a week and work on seminar material only...anyone that took the seminar can work on it with them when they desire......and it's free.

The 4 roads of the Golden leopard are pretty awesome....the're used to develop speed and strength training for Meteor Fist...he covered more than just the form at the seminars.....breathing and training methods were introduced also. Even if you decide not to move on to meteor fist the 4 roads are something you could spend a life time developing.

GMS has decided to teach the Golden Leopards and Meteor Fist again to give everybody a chance to get it before he moves on to the next material.....which is something very special......by the way we were finally introduced to the start of Golden Snake material in the yin side of meteor fist:D
BQ

[Judge Pen]

First I love the seminars....it's great to have everyone together for a day....kinda neat to spend time with SDers you normally never see. As far as learning a form in one day...I'm not able to do that.....some of the young guys can...not me....I do take notes & get the basic introduction which makes it easier to break it down later and at our school the upper masters spend one day a week and work on seminar material only...anyone that took the seminar can work on it with them when they desire......and it's free.

The 4 roads of the Golden leopard are pretty awesome....the're used to develop speed and strength training for Meteor Fist...he covered more than just the form at the seminars.....breathing and training methods were introduced also. Even if you decide not to move on to meteor fist the 4 roads are something you could spend a life time developing.

GMS has decided to teach the Golden Leopards and Meteor Fist again to give everybody a chance to get it before he moves on to the next material.....which is something very special......by the way we were finally introduced to the start of Golden Snake material in the yin side of meteor fist:D
BQ

Did he specify that it was Golden Snake?

[Baqualin]

Psst... that's just a couple... there are more than a couple of schools... ;) :D

SDA website is not a school...it's the main website for Shaolin Do.....all SDA schools;)

[Baqualin]

Did he specify that it was Golden Snake?

Yes, the Yin side of Meteor Fist is the Grand father of the Eagle Claw & Golden Snake systems...the first part was a 37 posture Eagle Claw form & the 2nd part was a 80 posture Golden Snake form (like pakua mirror image, 40 right, 40 left):p
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

did he specify what the next form would be?

[Baqualin]

did he specify what the next form would be?

No...he will not tell us for 2 years until after he teaches out the Leopards & Meteor Fist again. One person does know, but he'll never tell:)
BQ

[sean_stonehart]

Yes, the Yin side of Meteor Fist is the Grand father of the Eagle Claw & Golden Snake systems...the first part was a 37 posture Eagle Claw form & the 2nd part was a 80 posture Golden Snake form (like pakua mirror image, 40 right, 40 left):p
BQ

Bet the Ying Jow Pai folks would love to hear this...

[sean_stonehart]

SDA website is not a school...it's the main website for Shaolin Do.....all SDA schools;)

I know that... hence the smilies. I had a membership patch in 98 when it was still pushed in Atl.

[brucereiter]

8 pathways of immortality is what I think he is refering to. Follows up on Shien Tien Chi. Meditation pathways through the different points that make you feel all good and stuff.

thanks gt.

[Baqualin]

Bet the Ying Jow Pai folks would love to hear this...

Credit was given to the proper people for the eagle claw lineage.:D

[sean_stonehart]

Credit was given to the proper people for the eagle claw lineage.:D

Cool... which line? What's the set name?

[chiballsoffire]

Hey CW,
Your correct, the SDA site makes no claims...neither does the Lexington schools web site:).
BQ

Website for the main Lexington School

http://www.sinthe.com/grandmaster.html

"Having learned the entire body of Shaolin weapon, empty hand, animal, and internal styles, Sin Kwang Thé became the youngest Grandmaster in Shaolin history. Any martial arts school is limited by the accumulated body of information available to the student. In Shaolin Do, this body of knowledge is almost limitless, as Grandmaster Thé constantly reveals new training and forms from the 900-plus Shaolin forms he has mastered. "

[Baqualin]

Website for the main Lexington School

http://www.sinthe.com/grandmaster.html

"Having learned the entire body of Shaolin weapon, empty hand, animal, and internal styles, Sin Kwang Thé became the youngest Grandmaster in Shaolin history. Any martial arts school is limited by the accumulated body of information available to the student. In Shaolin Do, this body of knowledge is almost limitless, as Grandmaster Thé constantly reveals new training and forms from the 900-plus Shaolin forms he has mastered. "

:rolleyes:that's a link to another site

[Chain Whip]

Sean, you said


Bruce... the problem with the misinformation is there's been no active attempt by anybody to correct/clarify the statements.

you even put the "by anybody" in large bold italic

So, I reply that some people have made an effort to "correct/clarify"

You respond with-


That could be for Atlanta (or even some), but that's just one(few) of many & does not too much to quell the years of stories & what not perpetuated by organization as a whole.

What happened to "by anybody"?

[Golden Tiger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Tiger
8 pathways of immortality is what I think he is refering to. Follows up on Shien Tien Chi. Meditation pathways through the different points that make you feel all good and stuff.

thanks gt.


If you would like more info on it/them, just let me know.

[sean_stonehart]

Sean, you said

>>snipped<<

you even put the "by anybody" in large bold italic


You're right I did. That was me. Where's a single website saying "Nope... didn't happen that way" or "...to clarify a misunderstanding"?




So, I reply that some people have made an effort to "correct/clarify"

You respond with-

>>snipped<<

What happened to "by anybody"?

Well ok. You got me there dead to rights, so let me clarify my statement...

By anybody in this context refers to Sin The or the immediate subordinates that maintain the organization in his name, flow of information in his name or for his benefit.

How's that?

[brucereiter]

so let me clarify my statement...

By anybody in this context refers to Sin The or the immediate subordinates that maintain the organization in his name, flow of information in his name or for his benefit.

How's that?

spot on. direct.

[Golden Tiger]

Well ok. You got me there dead to rights, so let me clarify my statement...

By anybody in this context refers to Sin The or the immediate subordinates that maintain the organization in his name, flow of information in his name or for his benefit.

How's that?



Well Sean, I am probably as close as you are going to get on here and while I am not 100% sure, I think about 30 pages ago, then again about 70 pages ago, then at 150 and 200 and oh yeah, 425 pages ago, I tried to set the record straight. Personally, I am past all the hype on the websites and am just thankful that I went to a demo when i was but a wee lad and starting taking classes.

I think what is out there now are sites created by people, who like myself, are very proud of what Master Sin has given to them and they continue to tell the stories that they were told by him and others. 100% accurate, 90%, heck 20%, it only seems to matter to those on here. Every student I have taugth or talked to would listen to all the names and background stories then go, okay, now please teach me how to fight. It is only the "purists" that really care.

And on a side note, it is my opinion that any school or teacher of SD (or even STao) that down plays the background of Master Sin and all is bad, very bad...but that is for another post.

[chiballsoffire]

Well Sean, I am probably as close as you are going to get on here and while I am not 100% sure, I think about 30 pages ago, then again about 70 pages ago, then at 150 and 200 and oh yeah, 425 pages ago, I tried to set the record straight. Personally, I am past all the hype on the websites and am just thankful that I went to a demo when i was but a wee lad and starting taking classes.

I think what is out there now are sites created by people, who like myself, are very proud of what Master Sin has given to them and they continue to tell the stories that they were told by him and others. 100% accurate, 90%, heck 20%, it only seems to matter to those on here. Every student I have taugth or talked to would listen to all the names and background stories then go, okay, now please teach me how to fight. It is only the "purists" that really care.

And on a side note, it is my opinion that any school or teacher of SD (or even STao) that down plays the background of Master Sin and all is bad, very bad...but that is for another post.

Ladies and Gentlemen....please give a big hand to Golden Shower....SD's chief Kool-Aid taste-tester. Goldie's taken some time off from his high-level duties to provide all you pee-ons (no pun intended) with his latest words of wisdom.

So, how's that private instruction going? What's the system called?....Rusty Trombone?

[Judge Pen]

Ladies and Gentlemen....please give a big hand to Golden Shower....SD's chief Kool-Aid taste-tester. Goldie's taken some time off from his high-level duties to provide all you pee-ons (no pun intended) with his latest words of wisdom.

So, how's that private instruction going? What's the system called?....Rusty Trombone?

That's a constructive post. Thanks for contributing to the dialogue. Ad hominem arguments on what your 3rd post--way to get to the heart of the matter quickly. What's your axe to grind? Had a bad experience with SD or after eight years of Hung Gar do you want to join the martial arts police?

[sean_stonehart]

Well Sean, I am probably as close as you are going to get on here and while I am not 100&#37; sure, I think about 30 pages ago, then again about 70 pages ago, then at 150 and 200 and oh yeah, 425 pages ago, I tried to set the record straight. Personally, I am past all the hype on the websites and am just thankful that I went to a demo when i was but a wee lad and starting taking classes.

GT you're right about that and I do believe you tried here. The problem GT is that "upper mgmt" hasn't. Kudos for trying, but you're like the rest of us who are or were... a voice in forest of 2 or 3 main control points.



I think what is out there now are sites created by people, who like myself, are very proud of what Master Sin has given to them and they continue to tell the stories that they were told by him and others. 100% accurate, 90%, heck 20%, it only seems to matter to those on here. Every student I have taugth or talked to would listen to all the names and background stories then go, okay, now please teach me how to fight. It is only the "purists" that really care.

Not so much purists per se (maybe so for some more than others), but people who want the truth. Documented, verfiable, traceable, undisputable truth.



And on a side note, it is my opinion that any school or teacher of SD (or even STao) that down plays the background of Master Sin and all is bad, very bad...but that is for another post.

Downplaying. How do you mean? I don't think any has suggested that openly. I don't know or remember... it was a late night teaching/training & it's early now. :eek:

[kwaichang]

YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH, Sean there are maybe 8 out of 5000 who care about what you think the truth is. He// no body knows the truth. It is subjective. and as far as CBOF get a life man if you cant do HG well dont get pi//y at us. KC

[sean_stonehart]

YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH, Sean there are maybe 8 out of 5000 who care about what you think the truth is. He// no body knows the truth. It is subjective. and as far as CBOF get a life man if you cant do HG well dont get pi//y at us. KC

Wow... such vitriol this early.

Truth isn't subjective. Truth tends to be based on facts proven and verified. When it gets subjective is when people put blinders on like a working horse to draw the carriage. All they see is what's in front of them.

From Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth)

Truth - noun
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.
—Idiom
12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.

[Judge Pen]

And on a side note, it is my opinion that any school or teacher of SD (or even STao) that down plays the background of Master Sin and all is bad, very bad...but that is for another post.

I don't think it is downplaying Master Sin's background to describe SD as "a massive collection of styles which descended from the Shaolin Temple system in China, passed down from master to student and from generation to generation" and to identify Master Sin as the grandmaster of Shaolin-Do.

[Baqualin]

The pace to 500 is picking up:D
BQ

[sean_stonehart]

The pace to 500 is picking up:D
BQ

I'm showing 459 on my screen layout!!

[Baqualin]

Ladies and Gentlemen....please give a big hand to Golden Shower....SD's chief Kool-Aid taste-tester. Goldie's taken some time off from his high-level duties to provide all you pee-ons (no pun intended) with his latest words of wisdom.

So, how's that private instruction going? What's the system called?....Rusty Trombone?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
BQ

[Golden Tiger]

Ladies and Gentlemen....please give a big hand to Golden Shower....SD's chief Kool-Aid taste-tester. Goldie's taken some time off from his high-level duties to provide all you pee-ons (no pun intended) with his latest words of wisdom.

So, how's that private instruction going? What's the system called?....Rusty Trombone?


Thanks for taking the time to comment on my post. I am sorry if I have stuck a nerve chiballs.


Downplaying. How do you mean? I don't think any has suggested that openly. I don't know or remember... it was a late night teaching/training & it's early now.



Sorry, I might have taken an earlier post the wrong way. Sometimes, no matter how hard one tries, its difficult to respond with out personal biased opinions.


Truth isn't subjective.

Actually, truth can be. Fact is objective. Theres a whole philsophical discipline surround it. See Plato.


I don't think it is downplaying Master Sin's background to describe SD as "a massive collection of styles which descended from the Shaolin Temple system in China, passed down from master to student and from generation to generation" and to identify Master Sin as the grandmaster of Shaolin-Do.


see above:rolleyes:

[sean_stonehart]

Sorry, I might have taken an earlier post the wrong way. Sometimes, no matter how hard one tries, its difficult to respond with out personal biased opinions.

Oh it's cool... I just didn't & don't recall saying that or implying it & wanted to make sure if it was or wasn't me.



Actually, truth can be. Fact is objective. Theres a whole philsophical discipline surround it. See Plato.

Eh... I'm not too much on the Greeks.



see above:rolleyes:

Yeah but he's special. He's a lawyer... ;)

[Yao Sing]

By anybody in this context refers to Sin The or the immediate subordinates that maintain the organization in his name, flow of information in his name or for his benefit.

How's that?

I think what you're wanting is more of a denouncement of the claims and not just a non-propagation of them.

IOW, not speaking out against them is in fact supporting the claims. You would think that an honest person would want to set that all straight, especially if you control the organization.


He// no body knows the truth. It is subjective. and as far as CBOF get a life man if you cant do HG well dont get pi//y at us. KC

So, you're saying you have not received any information proving the claims are true? You are taking it on faith?

What happened with the talk you had with Sin The when you said you would ask him and post the answers? You came back totally convinced but you can't tell us why? I think you chickened out.

What talk did yo hear over the weekend that reinforced your belief that SD is the true Shaolin?

[Yao Sing]

It's a personal thing man , and I did ask the questions but there was so much depth to the answers I couldnt recall it all.

Recall some of it, just a piece of it. Do you remember any of it? I call BS, you didn't ask any of hte tough questions. That's why you can't answer. You chickened out, admit it.


I was there and have to say the history GMThe gave was amazing and does reinforce the SD position previously noted. LTK

And I suppose you can't remember any of it either. Mass hypnosis maybe?

[mkriii]

So GM Sin The' claims he is the grandmaster? Well it's kind of funny how he can go from an 8th degree BB to a 10th degree BB in a matter of a few months. He leaves the country and comes back 2 degrees higher. I studied under Grandmaster Sin back in the early 80's and came to my senses and saught out some real martial art training. I've hear numerous stories of how he one some tournament and decided after that that he was good enough to be a 10th degree BB some he self promoted himself.

[sean_stonehart]

That's nothing new & not being worried about.

TKD peeps were (are) famous for getting on a plane in one time zone & coming out 3 or 4 more dans higher by the time they get to the new timezone.

[Judge Pen]

Originally Posted by JP
I don't think it is downplaying Master Sin's background to describe SD as "a massive collection of styles which descended from the Shaolin Temple system in China, passed down from master to student and from generation to generation" and to identify Master Sin as the grandmaster of Shaolin-Do.

see above:rolleyes:


That "quote" was pulled from GMT's website. On the same site he sometimes refers to himslef as the grandmaster of shaolin and, as often, he refers to himself as the grandmaster of shaolin-do.

As I think that what is or isn't shaolin depends on when the lineage diverged from the temple, it would be impossible to be the grandmaster of all shaolin since that, to me, implies a component of "all time". GMT is not the grandmaster of what is being taught at the temples now, but that is still "shaolin". He is the master of the material that left the temple and has taught to him by GGM Ie. That's an accomplishment and not intended to take anything away or be disrespectful in any way.

[Judge Pen]

Recall some of it, just a piece of it. Do you remember any of it? I call BS, you didn't ask any of hte tough questions. That's why you can't answer. You chickened out, admit it.



And I suppose you can't remember any of it either. Mass hypnosis maybe?

I wasn't privy to the conversation, but I recall KC telling me the day after the conversation, about what was discussed and his answers. I don't know that it occurred, but I believe KC in saying that it did.

If KC wants to share the Q & A, then that's his perogative not mine. I will say that the answers would satisfy anyone that beleives that GMT is truthful and credible. The answers probably would not satisfy any body who does not beleive GM The has any credibility. So, ultimately, it proves nothing except if you wanted it to in the first place. Isn't that how most of us are. Although we try to remain objective, if we are invested in an idea or a principal most of us emphasize the facts that seem to support our beliefs and minimize the ones that do not (whether we are conscious of it or not).

[sean_stonehart]

As I think that what is or isn't shaolin depends on when the lineage diverged from the temple, it would be impossible to be the grandmaster of all shaolin since that, to me, implies a component of "all time". GMT is not the grandmaster of what is being taught at the temples now, but that is still "shaolin". He is the master of the material that left the temple and has taught to him by GGM Ie. That's an accomplishment and not intended to take anything away or be disrespectful in any way.

The problem with that is there's material that was never in any temple to have left & is being represented as such incorrectly. On top of that, there are body mechanic principles intrinsic & required for those systems that are missing as well.

[Judge Pen]

So GM Sin The' claims he is the grandmaster? Well it's kind of funny how he can go from an 8th degree BB to a 10th degree BB in a matter of a few months. He leaves the country and comes back 2 degrees higher. I studied under Grandmaster Sin back in the early 80's and came to my senses and saught out some real martial art training. I've hear numerous stories of how he one some tournament and decided after that that he was good enough to be a 10th degree BB some he self promoted himself.

I've heard that story too except GM The was a 5th at the time (see the certificate translation earlier). After attending a few tournaments and seeing the skill of those who called themselves 6, 7, 8 9 or 10 degree black belts he reported this to his teacher who then promoted Master Sin to 10th. There is a letter floating around that is rumored to document this. I've seen a transcription of it, but I have no idea if its even remotely accurate or authentic. He was reposrtedly promoted to GM and 10th degree black in 1968 by Ie Chang Ming.

I'm curious to hear about your training. Who did you train with after leaving GM The?

[Judge Pen]

The problem with that is there's material that was never in any temple to have left & is being represented as such incorrectly. On top of that, there are body mechanic principles intrinsic & required for those systems that are missing as well.


I know--SD identifies temples and material that is coming from temples that most dispute. I understand your objections.

As far as body mechanics etc., no doubt the material has evolved into its own animal. The problem is compounded by the inter-mingling of different material and a tendancy of some teachers and schools to rush through material without ever spending time teaching anything other than form.