Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[brucereiter]

So GM Sin The' claims he is the grandmaster? Well it's kind of funny how he can go from an 8th degree BB to a 10th degree BB in a matter of a few months. He leaves the country and comes back 2 degrees higher. I've hear numerous stories of how he one some tournament and decided after that that he was good enough to be a 10th degree BB some he self promoted himself.

are you claiming that ie chang ming did not name sin kwang the the grandmaster of his system in 1968? all evidence i can find says that he did.

===============================================

below is a basic time line of shaolin do the way i understand it. if anyone would like to correct any mistake and also add any information please do.

1880 ie chang ming was born in fukien province. At some point entered the shaolin temple and then followed su kong tai jin into the mountains.
1881
1882
1883
1884
1885
1886
1887
1888
1889
1890
1891
1892
1893
1894
1895
1896
1897
1898
1899
1900
1901
1902
1903
1904
1905
1906
1907
1908
1909
1910
1911 ching dynasty falls, some time after ie chand ming kills ching soldiers and flees to bandung indonesia. (may have left after 1928 since ie is said to have studied with su kong until his death???)
1912
1913
1914
1915
1916
1917
1918
1919
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
1926
1927
1928
1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943 sin kwang the' born in bandung indonesia
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948 hiang kwang the born in bandung indonesia/ sin kwang the' began sandburn training for 6 months
1949
1950 sin kwang the started to study at ie chang mings school "central shaolin wushu school" in bandung
1951
1952
1953
1954 sin kwang the studied "lower school"
1955 sin kwang the studied "lower school" and awarded black belt level 1
1956 sin kwang the studied "middle school"
1957 sin kwang the studied "middle school"
1958 sin kwang the studied "middle school" and awarded black belt level 3 /some time around 15 years old sin the meets "master wu" and is introduced to internal.
1959 sin kwang the studied "upper school"
1960 sin kwang the studied "upper school"
1961 sin kwang the studied "upper school"
1962 sin kwang the studied "upper school"
1963 sin kwang the studied "upper school"
1964 sin kwang the awarded black belt level 5. sin kwang the moved to lexington ky to start college. Same year he starts teaching shaolin in lexington.
1965
1966
1967
1968 ie chang ming awarded sin kwang the 10th degree red belt grandmaster/1968 mideast national tournament, bill wallace competed.
1969
1970
1971 national karate grand championship sat sept 18 1971 u.k. coliseum
1972
1973
1974
1975
1976 ie chang ming dies in bandung indonesia/some claim he died in 1968.
1977
1978 sin kwang the opens the "sports center" according to the trademark records the first use of the phrase "shaolin do" was used in 1978
1979
1980 sin the created a video tape that was used to catalog his material for and eventual copyright
1981
1982
1983
1984
1985
1986 sr master gary grooms opens a chinese shaolin center in atlanta the sign read "shaolin martial arts" + "kung fu-tai chi" grandmaster sin saw the sign and said he teachs shaolin karate.
1987
1988
1989
1990 aug 9 1990 sin kwang the registered for a copyright on the material presented in his system. the claim limit is "selection and ordering of exercises"
1991
1992 july 1 1992, sin the attends a event in bandung to honor him and ie chang ming's peers presented sin the with a case containing some of ie chang mings possessions including many notes and books about various martial arts. (i do not know any names of ie chang mings peers who were there maybe someone can help)
i think this is where a great deal of the material came from.
1993
1994 ?? System is named "shaolin do" ?? But may have been called "shaolin do" some time before.
1995 sin kwang the and james halladay release the book "shaolin do secrets from the temple"
1996
1997
1998
1999
2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007

[brucereiter]

GMT is not the grandmaster of what is being taught at the temples now, but that is still "shaolin". He is the master of the material that left the temple and has taught to him by GGM Ie. That's an accomplishment and not intended to take anything away or be disrespectful in any way.

!!!!!!!!! this has been said over and over he yet people still seem to twist it around ... !!!!!!
i think that is a great description. i also think this is what sin kwang the thinks about his position.

[MasterKiller]

!!!!!!!!! this has been said over and over he yet people still seem to twist it around ... !!!!!!
i think that is a great description. i also think this is what sin kwang the thinks about his position.

OK, who owns www.shaolingrandmaster.com then?

Because the biography on that site would lead one to believe he is the grandmaster of all Shaolin.

[mkriii]

I know that my teacher was at a tournament where Sin The' was twirling a staff that was on fire and he spun it so fast that the flames went out. After doing this he (sin the') said he was so good that he should be a 10th degree black belt. We will never know the truth because the former GM and Hairy Man are both dead. It is sad that there are so many people that are brain washed by all this BS. I know it's BS because I was a student of GM Sin's back at the Sin The' Sports Center on Richmond Rd. back in the early 80's (1982 I think).

[Judge Pen]

OK, who owns www.shaolingrandmaster.com then?

Because the biography on that site would lead one to believe he is the grandmaster of all Shaolin.

Second paragraph is where I found the quote I cited. http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/about.html

Here (page 1) he identifies himself as "The Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do" http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html

Here (page 6) he identifies himself as the Grandmaster of Shaolin: http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html

Page 9 http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html he identifies himself as the youngest grandmaster in the history of shaolin and then says he decided to dedicate his life to the preservation of shaolin-do.

As I said, he at different times he referes to himself as both the grandmaster of shaolin and the grandmaster of shaolin-do.

[Judge Pen]

I know that my teacher was at a tournament where Sin The' was twirling a staff that was on fire and he spun it so fast that the flames went out. After doing this he (sin the') said he was so good that he should be a 10th degree black belt. We will never know the truth because the former GM and Hairy Man are both dead. It is sad that there are so many people that are brain washed by all this BS. I know it's BS because I was a student of GM Sin's back at the Sin The' Sports Center on Richmond Rd. back in the early 80's (1982 I think).

And now you're a student of John Ng's line? I have no axe to grind with sifu Ng and sifu Dufresne (we've cordially corresponded on more than one occassion) but its no secret that the students of our respective styles often clash and display a fair degree of animosity (especially those from the early 80s when everything came to a head--well before my SD time too by the way).

I will agree that since Su Kong and E Chang Ming are deceased, then the ability to verify many of SD's claims are limited.

[sean_stonehart]

I know--SD identifies temples and material that is coming from temples that most dispute. I understand your objections.

As far as body mechanics etc., no doubt the material has evolved into its own animal. The problem is compounded by the inter-mingling of different material and a tendancy of some teachers and schools to rush through material without ever spending time teaching anything other than form.

Thank you Counselor... :p;):D

[brucereiter]

OK, who owns www.shaolingrandmaster.com then?

Because the biography on that site would lead one to believe he is the grandmaster of all Shaolin.

hi mk,

i do not know who "owns" it but it was made buy a atlanta student who was guided by grandmaster sin kwang the' about what the site would say.

i disagree with your opinion regarding the bio on the linked site that there is any implication of authority, leadership or control of any martial art system or group of people practicing any shaolin system other than the one known as "shaolin do".

best,

bruce

[MasterKiller]

hi mk,

i do not know who "owns" it but it was made buy a atlanta student who was guided by grandmaster sin kwang the' about what the site would say.

i disagree with your opinion regarding the bio on the linked site that there is any implication of authority, leadership or control of any martial art system or group of people practicing any shaolin system other than the one known as "shaolin do".

best,

bruce

"One man emerged from the flames to carry on the tradition of the Shaolin Temple. This man was known as the Grandmaster.

In accordance with tradition, only one person can carry this title. Since that time, only three have. Each, in his time, the ultimate practitioner of the art."

"Grandmaster E died in 1976, but not before passing all his knowledge on to me, the current Grandmaster of Shaolin."

"Mastering more than 900 forms from over 100 fighting systems, I became the youngest Grandmaster in 1500 years of Shaolin history."

"After Grandmaster E's death, I realized that while there were many engineers in the world, there was only one Grandmaster of Shaolin..."

You don't see a conflict there, Bruce?

BTW, Su Kong was at the oldest 26 when he fled to the mountains according to that website. How old was he when he became "The Grandmaster"?

[Baqualin]

I know that my teacher was at a tournament where Sin The' was twirling a staff that was on fire and he spun it so fast that the flames went out. After doing this he (sin the') said he was so good that he should be a 10th degree black belt.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:BSS


We will never know the truth because the former GM and Hairy Man are both dead. It is sad that there are so many people that are brain washed by all this BS. I know it's BS because I was a student of GM Sin's back at the Sin The' Sports Center on Richmond Rd. back in the early 80's (1982 I think).

You think:confused:

[mkriii]

I don't have a ax to grind with Sin The' or any of his students. I would just like to know the truth of his authenticity/lineage. I've heard so many stories that may or may not be true. Everyone that tells these stories of amazing feats that Sin has done has never seen him actually do them. All the stories start with "a friend of mine saw GM sin do ....." But anyways, about my training. I studied under Sin's brother at the Sin The' Sport Center and got up to brown belt. I don't know how he opperates now but back then when we would sparr in class he did not allow ANY contact at all. We were told to stop 2 inches away from the opponent. I did not think this was very realistic or good training method. How is one to react in a real fight if he has never been hit before? This was at Brown belt level. So I left. I started studying at Four Season under John Ng. When John Ng closed his doors in I believe 1989 I went to Master John Dufresne's school - International Kung Fu Academy over in Gainsway Shopping Center. I have followed him to every school when he would move from one location to another. I still train under him and just saw him about a month ago. He is doing a seminar in Nashville Tn at Master Rusty Gray's school and I'll be attending that. Master Gray is doing a Wing Chun seminar and Master Dufresne is doing a seminar on Pa Qua & Hsing I. I am a second level black sash under Master Dufresne but in reality I propbably should be a 3rd level, just never tested for it since Master dufresne moved back to Boston. Back to Shaolin Do....This is really getting to be like beating a dead horse. There are so many threads related to this topic. It's getting kind of old. But it's always still interesting to find out new "stuff" about GM Sin.

[mkriii]

And what is your martial art history with GM Sin The'?

[Baqualin]

I don't have a ax to grind with Sin The' or any of his students. I would just like to know the truth of his authenticity/lineage. I've heard so many stories that may or may not be true. Everyone that tells these stories of amazing feats that Sin has done has never seen him actually do them. All the stories start with "a friend of mine saw GM sin do ....." But anyways, about my training. I studied under Sin's brother at the Sin The' Sport Center and got up to brown belt. I don't know how he opperates now but back then when we would sparr in class he did not allow ANY contact at all. We were told to stop 2 inches away from the opponent. I did not think this was very realistic or good training method. How is one to react in a real fight if he has never been hit before? This was at Brown belt level. So I left. I started studying at Four Season under John Ng. When John Ng closed his doors in I believe 1989 I went to Master John Dufresne's school - International Kung Fu Academy over in Gainsway Shopping Center. I have followed him to every school when he would move from one location to another. I still train under him and just saw him about a month ago. He is doing a seminar in Nashville Tn at Master Rusty Gray's school and I'll be attending that. Master Gray is doing a Wing Chun seminar and Master Dufresne is doing a seminar on Pa Qua & Hsing I. I am a second level black sash under Master Dufresne but in reality I propbably should be a 3rd level, just never tested for it since Master dufresne moved back to Boston. Back to Shaolin Do....This is really getting to be like beating a dead horse. There are so many threads related to this topic. It's getting kind of old. But it's always still interesting to find out new "stuff" about GM Sin.

Been around since 74....under GMS no contact to face or knee joints......everything else is fair game as long as you don't try and kill the guy. There were alot of bad experiences in the sport center years:)
BQ

[mkriii]

why is it that on Sin The' web page and his brothers web page they no long acknowledge one another? What was the falling out over? It's like the two don't want to admit that the other one exists.

[bodhi warrior]

I personally think that most if not all the material taught up until 1990,gms probably learned in Indonesia. All this new stuff is probably coming from other sources. If you look at the master certificates they don't list the new stuff.

[Yao Sing]

"One man emerged from the flames to carry on the tradition of the Shaolin Temple. This man was known as the Grandmaster.

In accordance with tradition, only one person can carry this title. Since that time, only three have. Each, in his time, the ultimate practitioner of the art."

"Grandmaster E died in 1976, but not before passing all his knowledge on to me, the current Grandmaster of Shaolin."

"Mastering more than 900 forms from over 100 fighting systems, I became the youngest Grandmaster in 1500 years of Shaolin history."

"After Grandmaster E's death, I realized that while there were many engineers in the world, there was only one Grandmaster of Shaolin..."

You don't see a conflict there, Bruce?

BTW, Su Kong was at the oldest 26 when he fled to the mountains according to that website. How old was he when he became "The Grandmaster"?

So there have only been 3 Grandmasters of Shaolin, starting with Su Kong?

And this statement isn't misleading either?
"In 1992, at a large celebration at the Honan Province (the original Shaolin temple), Chief Abbot Su Xi presented a stone tablet to commemorate my visit."

Sounds to me like the Abbot presented the tablet to Sin The, not the Soards or students as has been stated in this thread. I think the average person would read it that way.

JP
I'm not doubting kwaichang met with Sin The, I doubt he asked the tough questions like he told us he would. He probably asked a few simple questions and took the answers at face value.

He refused to report back to us like he said he would because he chickened out of asking the questions the non-SD public wants answered.

His credibility has been reduced to ZERO and has proven himself to be nothing more than a shill for SD. Even some of the SD folks would like to hear these answers.

The big question is why the secrecy?

[chiballsoffire]

That's a constructive post. Thanks for contributing to the dialogue. Ad hominem arguments on what your 3rd post--way to get to the heart of the matter quickly. What's your axe to grind? Had a bad experience with SD or after eight years of Hung Gar do you want to join the martial arts police?

....and step away from the crystal meth.

The above wasn't an attempt at an argument...its called sarcasm. (Another example to reinforce today's lesson)

An argument contains one or more premises and a conclusion, but judging from the past level of point/counterpoint on this thread, well-constructed/logical arguments would be wasted on the SD crowd.

Please continue your fawning over Sin The.

[mkriii]

From what I understand any one can get a huge stone tablet made in thier honor and placed in front of the temple. all that has to be done is donate so much money to the temple. The temple has become more of a tourist attraction now days. I can get a monument in my honor if I donate a lot of money.

[sean_stonehart]

I think what you're wanting is more of a denouncement of the claims and not just a non-propagation of them.

IOW, not speaking out against them is in fact supporting the claims. You would think that an honest person would want to set that all straight, especially if you control the organization.





Yep... in a word yep

[brucereiter]

"One man emerged from the flames to carry on the tradition of the Shaolin Temple. This man was known as the Grandmaster.

In accordance with tradition, only one person can carry this title. Since that time, only three have. Each, in his time, the ultimate practitioner of the art."

"Grandmaster E died in 1976, but not before passing all his knowledge on to me, the current Grandmaster of Shaolin."

"Mastering more than 900 forms from over 100 fighting systems, I became the youngest Grandmaster in 1500 years of Shaolin history."

"After Grandmaster E's death, I realized that while there were many engineers in the world, there was only one Grandmaster of Shaolin..."

You don't see a conflict there, Bruce?

BTW, Su Kong was at the oldest 26 when he fled to the mountains according to that website. How old was he when he became "The Grandmaster"?

i guess it depends on how you define what is meant with the use of the word "shaolin".
regarding su kong tai jin the stories/legends around him are not as far as i know verifiable so i take the legends with a grain of salt.

i agree it could be spelled out in a much more direct manner. but that is not up to me.

[Judge Pen]

....and step away from the crystal meth.

The above wasn't an attempt at an argument...its called sarcasm. (Another example to reinforce today's lesson)

An argument contains one or more premises and a conclusion, but judging from the past level of point/counterpoint on this thread, well-constructed/logical arguments would be wasted on the SD crowd.

Please continue your fawning over Sin The.


So what part of your "sarcastic" post below


Ladies and Gentlemen....please give a big hand to Golden Shower....SD's chief Kool-Aid taste-tester. Goldie's taken some time off from his high-level duties to provide all you pee-ons (no pun intended) with his latest words of wisdom.

So, how's that private instruction going? What's the system called?....Rusty Trombone?

was constructive and contributive to this discussion? Out of you 4 posts you come in and attack someone personally "Golden Shower" etc. and then take the position that you're the bastion of logic when I call you out?

I'd give you a 0.25.

[Yao Sing]

From what I understand any one can get a huge stone tablet made in thier honor and placed in front of the temple. all that has to be done is donate so much money to the temple. The temple has become more of a tourist attraction now days. I can get a monument in my honor if I donate a lot of money.

Master Chan Pui of Wah Lum has one at Shaolin. I never asked but I'm sure he donated money to the Temple. I've never heard anyone claim it was erected purely to honor him or the school.

He is, however, recognized as 33rd Generation Disciple of Shaolin and is listed on the tablet that has the generations of names. He doesn't claim to be the GM of Shaolin or anything like that though.

And, as I understand, they also tested his skills behind closed doors. I guess this was before giving him the discipleship.

Maybe Sin The should go to Shaolin, kick them all out and claim his heritage? :D

[brucereiter]

I personally think that most if not all the material taught up until 1990,gms probably learned in Indonesia. All this new stuff is probably coming from other sources. If you look at the master certificates they don't list the new stuff.

see my previous posts about the 1992 trip to indonesia and the the notes recieved by gmt at that time from a peer of ie chang ming. ... ... ...

[brucereiter]

So there have only been 3 Grandmasters of Shaolin, starting with Su Kong? i think what is meant by that is in "our" line of shaolin. it seems clear to me. i can see how a person with now understanding of martial arts history could think what you are implying though :-)



And this statement isn't misleading either?
"In 1992, at a large celebration at the Honan Province (the original Shaolin temple), Chief Abbot Su Xi presented a stone tablet to commemorate my visit."
this is true. how is it misleading? what is misleading are stories that some people have added to the whole tablet thing ...

on the tablet is says who it is from and for ... it is too bad that many people think that su xi gave it to gmt so su xi could honor him lol



Sounds to me like the Abbot presented the tablet to Sin The, not the Soards or students as has been stated in this thread. I think the average person would read it that way.

mr halladay who co- wrote the "book" maybe should have left nothing to the imagination ...

[brucereiter]

From what I understand any one can get a huge stone tablet made in thier honor and placed in front of the temple. all that has to be done is donate so much money to the temple. The temple has become more of a tourist attraction now days. I can get a monument in my honor if I donate a lot of money.

yes this is true now and was true then. what is the point?

[Yao Sing]

Wah Lum and Master Chan has had similar questions. He kept returning to China and picking up more material from his kung fu uncles etc. plus he's gathered a library of manuscripts as well. New additions to the system come from these sources although they don't branch beyond the main source. It's all related, not multiple systems.

Sounds to me like Sin The got a hold of Ie's (or his associates) manuscripts. Or maybe he just collects up everything he can get his hands on which would account for the diversity of material.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Yao Sing;799787]Wah Lum and Master Chan has had similar questions. He kept returning to China and picking up more material from his kung fu uncles etc. plus he's gathered a library of manuscripts as well. New additions to the system come from these sources although they don't branch beyond the main source. It's all related, not multiple systems.

Sounds to me like Sin The got a hold of Ie's (or his associates) manuscripts.

Exactly, they were presented to him in 92....he told me that a lot would have been lost if he had not received the manuscripts...he also picked up material from his visits back to Indonesia from as you say his kung fu uncles, little brother, etc.
BQ

[Chain Whip]

OK, who owns www.shaolingrandmaster.com then?

Because the biography on that site would lead one to believe he is the grandmaster of all Shaolin.

As to this question – GMT owns this domain name and wrote most of text. He paid to have this site done by a guy who does website design for a living and happens to be a student in Atlanta. GMT personally wrote the biography on the site within the last year – you can tell by syntax that he wrote it.

[Chain Whip]

I see five key points of contention in this debate.

1. Does Grandmaster The’ claim to be the Grandmaster of Shaolin or of Shaolin-Do?
2. What’s the deal with markers at the Temples?
3. What is the deal with these 900 forms?
4. The lineage!!
5. Where is some of this material coming from?


1. The problem is even though GMT speaks about 8 or 9 languages he sometimes fails to communicate what he really means. I have heard him talk about someone for a while saying “he did this and he did that” and then GMT says the persons name and it’s a female name. So, it turns out that the “he” is really a “she” - Unfortunately, he seems to interchange – Shaolin with Shaolin-Do (Tao) - It would be great if he was 100% consistent on saying Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do but he isn’t. He certainly does not believe that he has dominion over the entire Shaolin world.

2. The markers were paid for by students who went on the various China trips. The first marker was erected in 1992 at the Northern Temple. The Soards padded the price of the trip to the students so they could buy the marker. They never said that they didn’t have to pay for it. That marker as well as the one in the Southern Temple is clearly there to honor the Soards. GMT is only mentioned as an afterthought. The one at Chen Temple was built with donations collected on the buses while sitting there at Chen Village. The wording of that one clearly states it was built for GMT – by his students.

3. The 900 forms!!! Again, it would be best if GMT didn’t ever say “mastered” 900 forms. By his own admission on many occasions he has said things like “I haven’t done this form in 40 years.” None of us have “mastered” any huge amount of forms. The better masters in SD have “mastered” something – maybe the Hua if you’re EM Mullins. I have no idea how many forms GMT could do right now but it not even close to 900, maybe more like 100.

4. The lineage!! The demand for indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof is entirely unreasonable. Indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof does not exist for anyone’s lineage or most any historical account. I think it is safe to say that GMT learned some body of material from GGM Ie. He was promoted to 5th Black through mostly normal methods and then the maximum rank was magically moved to 10th Black a few years later. There obviously was no additional material to speak of. After GGM Ie – who knows? GMT only knows the story of Su Kong because that is what he says he was told by GGM Ie.

5. Where is some of this stuff coming from? Some amount came from GGM Ie but obviously not all of it. The Tai Chi 24 Form and the 17th Generation Chen Form most likely came from elsewhere for example. However, some of the very unique things like Snake Pa Kua I believe came through our “stated lineage” That form just isn’t out there in books and videos. Of course, this ties back to the 900 form claim. Why did some things come from elsewhere if GGM Ie taught GMT 900 forms? A good question – one I would like to hear an answer to.

In some ways I agree with Sean it would be nice if GMT The’ stopped talking about 900 forms, made it clear he was the Shaolin-Do Grandmaster – not the Shaolin Grandmaster, never used the markers at the Temples as “validation” and made clear what he learned as a youth from GGM Ie versus what was acquired elsewhere.

However, I’m pretty sure that GMT will not be buying ad time on national TV to make statements to this effect in an effort to make Sean and some others happy. If he did – what would we all talk about then?

[brucereiter]

I see five key points of contention in this debate.

1. Does Grandmaster The’ claim to be the Grandmaster of Shaolin or of Shaolin-Do?
2. What’s the deal with markers at the Temples?
3. What is the deal with these 900 forms?
4. The lineage!!
5. Where is some of this material coming from?


1. The problem is even though GMT speaks about 8 or 9 languages he sometimes fails to communicate what he really means. I have heard him talk about someone for a while saying “he did this and he did that” and then GMT says the persons name and it’s a female name. So, it turns out that the “he” is really a “she” - Unfortunately, he seems to interchange – Shaolin with Shaolin-Do (Tao) - It would be great if he was 100% consistent on saying Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do but he isn’t. He certainly does not believe that he has dominion over the entire Shaolin world.

2. The markers were paid for by students who went on the various China trips. The first marker was erected in 1992 at the Northern Temple. The Soards padded the price of the trip to the students so they could buy the marker. They never said that they didn’t have to pay for it. That marker as well as the one in the Southern Temple is clearly there to honor the Soards. GMT is only mentioned as an afterthought. The one at Chen Temple was built with donations collected on the buses while sitting there at Chen Village. The wording of that one clearly states it was built for GMT – by his students.

3. The 900 forms!!! Again, it would be best if GMT didn’t ever say “mastered” 900 forms. By his own admission on many occasions he has said things like “I haven’t done this form in 40 years.” None of us have “mastered” any huge amount of forms. The better masters in SD have “mastered” something – maybe the Hua if you’re EM Mullins. I have no idea how many forms GMT could do right now but it not even close to 900, maybe more like 100.

4. The lineage!! The demand for indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof is entirely unreasonable. Indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof does not exist for anyone’s lineage or most any historical account. I think it is safe to say that GMT learned some body of material from GGM Ie. He was promoted to 5th Black through mostly normal methods and then the maximum rank was magically moved to 10th Black a few years later. There obviously was no additional material to speak of. After GGM Ie – who knows? GMT only knows the story of Su Kong because that is what he says he was told by GGM Ie.

5. Where is some of this stuff coming from? Some amount came from GGM Ie but obviously not all of it. The Tai Chi 24 Form and the 17th Generation Chen Form most likely came from elsewhere for example. However, some of the very unique things like Snake Pa Kua I believe came through our “stated lineage” That form just isn’t out there in books and videos. Of course, this ties back to the 900 form claim. Why did some things come from elsewhere if GGM Ie taught GMT 900 forms? A good question – one I would like to hear an answer to.

In some ways I agree with Sean it would be nice if GMT The’ stopped talking about 900 forms, made it clear he was the Shaolin-Do Grandmaster – not the Shaolin Grandmaster, never used the markers at the Temples as “validation” and made clear what he learned as a youth from GGM Ie versus what was acquired elsewhere.

However, I’m pretty sure that GMT will not be buying ad time on national TV to make statements to this effect in an effort to make Sean and some others happy. If he did – what would we all talk about then?

fantastic post! some great observations and questions.

[Yao Sing]

Excellent post. A revelation to me about the first marker honoring the Soards.

Question: if he regularly interchanges Shaolin and Shaolin Do then it would appear he views them as the same thing. How do we know he doesn't see himself as the GM of Shaolin?

As a side note I would think his senior students would be in a position to help him understand, and correct the impression the incorrect wording is giving the general public.

If your best friend make a fool of himself publicly because he doesn't understand the language would he correct him and explain?

Also, from what I understand GM and 10th dan mean the same thing so I would imagine a GM to automatically me awarded 10th dan no matter what his rank. I don't see that as an issue.

But the lineage thing, there should be some attempt to reconcile it at least with the Temple's version of history. From what I hear it doesn't fit with the accepted history of Shaolin.

[mkriii]

I think that everyone should just let Sin The' be. If you choose to believe he is the GM and believe his lineage story then believe it, if you don't believe then so be it. debating this issue will not solve a thing. GM Sin The' will continue to teach and oversee 100's of Shaolin Do schools. I personally don't believe all he claims to know or even believe he deserves his 10th degree black belt or title of Grandmaster. I think that is something that you have to earn and I don't believe he earned it. I think he promoted himself. Having said that, nothing has changed. So as i asked before, is anything going to change with this debate. I doubt it.

[Yao Sing]

Yeah but we're growing the monster of all threads discussing it and end the end isn't that what life is all about?

500 or bust!!!

Plus we have the Internet Challenge thread in the main forum gaining fast.

[kwaichang]

I read back in the thread , boy you guys have been busy, That mkriii trained with Rusty Gray if this is true then you should know and I do that you have lost all credibilty by stating that . I know him personally and if you are studying Wing Chun with him you too are ripped off. I have known him since 1983 so how can you say anything of any credibility with that claim. KC

[sean_stonehart]

I see five key points of contention in this debate.

Sounds about right & this is a bomb posting by the way. Excellent in thought & presentation of the topics.



1. Does Grandmaster The’ claim to be the Grandmaster of Shaolin or of Shaolin-Do?

1. The problem is even though GMT speaks about 8 or 9 languages he sometimes fails to communicate what he really means. I have heard him talk about someone for a while saying “he did this and he did that” and then GMT says the persons name and it’s a female name. So, it turns out that the “he” is really a “she” - Unfortunately, he seems to interchange – Shaolin with Shaolin-Do (Tao) - It would be great if he was 100% consistent on saying Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do but he isn’t. He certainly does not believe that he has dominion over the entire Shaolin world.


I can understand that but I know plenty of other people personally, professionally, by association, etc... that are multilingual and have no problem keeping little things (but important ones) such as gender, separate & correct.

As to the dominion thing, you're right he doesn't. However at times it is left intentionally vague & that's where the problems start with the newbies, sycophants & hangers on. I've been around him in the past enough to recognize it when it happens.




2. What’s the deal with markers at the Temples?

2. The markers were paid for by students who went on the various China trips. The first marker was erected in 1992 at the Northern Temple. The Soards padded the price of the trip to the students so they could buy the marker. They never said that they didn’t have to pay for it. That marker as well as the one in the Southern Temple is clearly there to honor the Soards. GMT is only mentioned as an afterthought. The one at Chen Temple was built with donations collected on the buses while sitting there at Chen Village. The wording of that one clearly states it was built for GMT – by his students.


The Henan & Fujian Shaolin steles both are exactly that... for them. Have you been to Henan? I wish I'd taken a picture of the back of the stele. It's like a version 1 that makes a barest of mention of Sin The. So the stone carver apparently just turned it around & mounted it with the facing that everybody has their pic taken with.

The Chen stele was exactly as you described, even with a little drama when the people that paid for it saw it. Had to be there & no I'm not going into it in public.



3. What is the deal with these 900 forms?

3. The 900 forms!!! Again, it would be best if GMT didn’t ever say “mastered” 900 forms. By his own admission on many occasions he has said things like “I haven’t done this form in 40 years.” None of us have “mastered” any huge amount of forms. The better masters in SD have “mastered” something – maybe the Hua if you’re EM Mullins. I have no idea how many forms GMT could do right now but it not even close to 900, maybe more like 100.


That's about right, but the bone here is the "claiming" of materials that never, ever came out of any temple at any time. Then the training regimen for the material is non-existent or not wholly correct because of the other blue billion worth of SD training. It's impossible to focus correct training methods because of how it's put together.



4. The lineage!!

4. The lineage!! The demand for indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof is entirely unreasonable. Indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof does not exist for anyone’s lineage or most any historical account. I think it is safe to say that GMT learned some body of material from GGM Ie. He was promoted to 5th Black through mostly normal methods and then the maximum rank was magically moved to 10th Black a few years later. There obviously was no additional material to speak of. After GGM Ie – who knows? GMT only knows the story of Su Kong because that is what he says he was told by GGM Ie.


Enough has gone on here.



5. Where is some of this material coming from?

5. Where is some of this stuff coming from? Some amount came from GGM Ie but obviously not all of it. The Tai Chi 24 Form and the 17th Generation Chen Form most likely came from elsewhere for example. However, some of the very unique things like Snake Pa Kua I believe came through our “stated lineage” That form just isn’t out there in books and videos. Of course, this ties back to the 900 form claim. Why did some things come from elsewhere if GGM Ie taught GMT 900 forms? A good question – one I would like to hear an answer to.


A point of interest. Just so happens after going to China in 01 & browsing around the area, we saw lots of Mulan fan practice in Beijing. Next big thing to hit SD... Mulan fan with some whacked out story of its history.

Dig this... Article on Mulan Quan by the FOUNDER OF MULAN QUAN (http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/history/00-03-21/l01-live.html)




In some ways I agree with Sean it would be nice if GMT The’ stopped talking about 900 forms, made it clear he was the Shaolin-Do Grandmaster – not the Shaolin Grandmaster, never used the markers at the Temples as “validation” and made clear what he learned as a youth from GGM Ie versus what was acquired elsewhere.

That would be good.




However, I’m pretty sure that GMT will not be buying ad time on national TV to make statements to this effect in an effort to make Sean and some others happy. If he did – what would we all talk about then?

Don't think so?? Dang... actually just a simple statement on his web page & since he is the GM of the system, a quick note to all of the subordinate schools to do the same would clear things up.

Y'wanna know a funny thing... if he'd just called it "The` Family MA" or IndoChinese Kungfu/Kuntao, nobody would've ever said anything.

[sean_stonehart]

Go 500 go!!!!!!!

[Golden Tiger]

But anyways, about my training. I studied under Sin's brother at the Sin The' Sport Center and got up to brown belt. I don't know how he opperates now but back then when we would sparr in class he did not allow ANY contact at all. We were told to stop 2 inches away from the opponent.

If you were told to stop 2 inches away from your opponent, I have to question that you were studying under Master Hiang. Perhaps if you were told to stop after the second spurt of blood, I might believe you a bit more. He was a brutal teacher back then!:cool:

[Baqualin]

If you were told to stop 2 inches away from your opponent, I have to question that you were studying under Master Hiang. Perhaps if you were told to stop after the second spurt of blood, I might believe you a bit more. He was a brutal teacher back then!:cool:

I was thinking the same thing GT....I took a breathing and Meditation class from him.....he pushed a short stick into my solar plexus and almost touched my spine with it.....pointing out I wasn't breathing right.....needless to say I learned to breathe right:)
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

[QUOTE=Yao Sing;799787]Wah Lum and Master Chan has had similar questions. He kept returning to China and picking up more material from his kung fu uncles etc. plus he's gathered a library of manuscripts as well. New additions to the system come from these sources although they don't branch beyond the main source. It's all related, not multiple systems.

Sounds to me like Sin The got a hold of Ie's (or his associates) manuscripts.

Exactly, they were presented to him in 92....he told me that a lot would have been lost if he had not received the manuscripts...he also picked up material from his visits back to Indonesia from as you say his kung fu uncles, little brother, etc.
BQ

Then how can he say he is a master of these styles if the only way he knows them is through the manuscripts? If he did know them, then he must have forgotten them or they wouldn't have been close to being lost.

[Chain Whip]

Something to think about in regards to GMT’s statements about being Shaolin Grandmaster such as ”..while there were many engineers in the world there was only one Grandmaster of Shaolin.” Put this in perspective of the time he was making this decision (about finishing his degree or being a fulltime martial arts master) – the mid-1960’s. This was 40 years since the Henan temple was burned and 20 years before it was rebuilt. It was about 5 years before Nixon went to China. It was on the heels of the Cultural Revolution. All the very young Sin The’ knows is what his teacher told him. – Su Kong was the Grandmaster – who made me the Grandmaster and now you are the Grandmaster. He is living in central Kentucky. All he sees around him are Japanese karate guys. The few Chinese stylists he meets are no where near a match in skills. He can’t go online and do research. He can’t call around in China asking if there are any Shaolin masters there. Martial arts are by most accounts not being done in the open at all in China. Times have changed and I believe he understands things are different now. However, it is pretty easy to see how one could think “I am the Grandmaster”

[Lamassu]

That's always been my take on GMT's decision as well. Kung fu didn't become popular until a certain Chinese man playing a comic book hero's chauffer on t.v., was discovered in the 1960's. Also the fact that while Chinese immigrants did know and practice kung fu, they kept it a secret and only taught to other Chinese in their community (I'm referring to San Francisco's Chinatown).

Knowing that, I don't fault GMT for claiming Grandmastership of Shaolin back then, in all actuality, he did it for the love of Shaolin. Give the guy a break.

[sean_stonehart]

Eh... I gotta throw the baby in the road on the one.

The NYC Chinatown & SF/LA Chinatown was plenty full of old time, old school CMA teachers. Names like... Wong Jack Man, Lau Bun, Ark Y Wong, Gin Foon Mark, EY Lee, Cheng Man Ching, etc... and others were here in the 60's & earlier.

If Ed Parker new about them in the late 50's, surely a well educated Chinese immigrant to the US with ties to CMA would also.

[Pa Kua]

After reading the countless pages of comments I finally decided to post.

I've been training at a CSC for many years. Here are my thoughts on Shaolin-Do. 1st Question - why is "Shaolin" hyphenated in Shaolin-Do (as in "Shao-lin Do)? Is it semantics?

Advantages:

1. Lineage and claims aside, from a technical standpoint, I think that it is certainly a valid "for real" martial art. The basic aspects of stances, punches are valid, whether or not it is a "karatefied" chinese art or not doesn't really matter to me much. I would however be nice to say that it is true Shaolin Kung Fu. Each of the forms do have practical applications, and while they are shown, it is also up to the individual student to apply them.

2. Where I live it is probably the most cost effective method of learning martial arts. Alot of training hours are offered at a very good monthly rate.


Disadvantages:

1. Because there are so many forms it seems that it is predominantly a "forms learning" environment.

2. The additional required classes greatly increase the overall cost of training. You also have to by a kwan dao which is only used for one form. Why not follow on kwan dao forms?

3. The requirement that a certain number of classes be attended prior to being able to advance can be bothersome.

4. The curriculum is way too rigid. Someone may never be able to learn forms that interest them. Why only learn a few of the black tiger forms and not the rest?

Conclusion - Overall, the schools are well run (the ones I've seen), with a valid curriculum. it all depends on what you make of it.

[Judge Pen]

After reading the countless pages of comments I finally decided to post.

I've been training at a CSC for many years. Here are my thoughts on Shaolin-Do. 1st Question - why is "Shaolin" hyphenated in Shaolin-Do (as in "Shao-lin Do)? Is it semantics?

Advantages:

1. Lineage and claims aside, from a technical standpoint, I think that it is certainly a valid "for real" martial art. The basic aspects of stances, punches are valid, whether or not it is a "karatefied" chinese art or not doesn't really matter to me much. I would however be nice to say that it is true Shaolin Kung Fu. Each of the forms do have practical applications, and while they are shown, it is also up to the individual student to apply them.

2. Where I live it is probably the most cost effective method of learning martial arts. Alot of training hours are offered at a very good monthly rate.


Disadvantages:

1. Because there are so many forms it seems that it is predominantly a "forms learning" environment.

2. The additional required classes greatly increase the overall cost of training. You also have to by a kwan dao which is only used for one form. Why not follow on kwan dao forms?

3. The requirement that a certain number of classes be attended prior to being able to advance can be bothersome.

4. The curriculum is way too rigid. Someone may never be able to learn forms that interest them. Why only learn a few of the black tiger forms and not the rest?

5. The politics! Vegans are "worshipped". If you eat meat, you are a subclass of student. If someone wants to become an assistant instructor then they cannot imbide alcohol. Have to listen to instructors talk about politics and issue anti-U.S. rants when most people are there to learn martial arts.

6. I spoke to a chinese ju jitsu master (verified lineage to China) and he asked what martial arts I have studied. When I mentioned Shaolin-Do, a smirk appeared.

7. The desire of the school and students/instructors to "chinafy" themselves. Carry chopsticks, only read chinese literature, only watch kung fu movies, wear chinese hats, bash the U.S. - this is mainly a pet peeve only. I don't really care about what other people necessarily do. The school definitely has a "cult like" atmosphere with junior students following senior students/instructors actions (herd mentality). Ex. testing to higher belt levels and becoming vegan.


Conclusion - Overall, the schools are well run (the ones I've seen), with a valid curriculum. it all depends on what you make of it.

Thanks for posting. Keep in mind that some of your listed "disadvantages" are unique to your experiences in the CSC (such as the emphasis on vegans--wow, I had never heard that one before).

[sean_stonehart]

6. I spoke to a chinese ju jitsu master (verified lineage to China) and he asked what martial arts I have studied. When I mentioned Shaolin-Do, a smirk appeared.


A what?? Those two words aren't Chinese. One is Japanese, the other is *******ized American/Brazilian.

Is he ethnically Chinese that studies jujutsu or jujitsu?

Also... no such critter as "Chinese jujitsu". There's... Shuai Jiao among others, but not a critter named that just like nothing named "Chinese Kem(n)po" or "Chinese Goju"...

Nobody has said it wasn't a valid martial art. The argument is about its claims on origin, material, training methods, history, etc...

[sean_stonehart]

Thanks for posting. Keep in mind that some of your listed "disadvantages" are unique to your experiences in the CSC (such as the emphasis on vegans--wow, I had never heard that one before).

Not in the South anyway...

We had some while I was there. They didn't last too long... too many omnivores & such for their delicate tastes & beliefs.

[Pa Kua]

I guess I should have rephrased my previous statement.

Jujitsu master who's teacher is of chinese descent and lives in china. From doing a basic internet search, it appears that jujitsu may have originated in China. I certainly don't have the experience in martial arts that others on this board do - so any assistance/knowledge is appreciated!

Why can't there be a chinese jujitsu? We have shaolin-do?

[MasterKiller]

Why can't there be a chinese jujitsu? We have shaolin-do? There just isn't, bro.

[sean_stonehart]

I guess I should have rephrased my previous statement.

Jujitsu master who's teacher is of chinese descent and lives in china. From doing a basic internet search, it appears that jujitsu may have originated in China. I certainly don't have the experience in martial arts that others on this board do - so any assistance/knowledge is appreciated!

Why can't there be a chinese jujitsu? We have shaolin-do?

Ok then he's a Chinese - ju-jitsu teacher. Not a Chinese ju jitsu teacher.

There's plenty of arguments pro v con for Chinese origins of jujutsu.

Jujitsu happened when Americans & Brazilians got ahold of it.

The reason there's shaolin-do is the reason for this thread. Let's not add to it.

[kwaichang]

So its OK to say Brazilian Jujitsu but not Chinese Jujitsu and Shaolin but not Shaolin Do but you can say Tao, jeez, what an arrogant biggot you guys have become. BTW Jujitsu most definately has its origins in Chin Na / seizing arts of China most everything Japan has is from China or the surrounding area. Give the guy a break. KC

[Yao Sing]

Have to listen to instructors talk about politics and issue anti-U.S. rants when most people are there to learn martial arts.


7. The desire of the school and students/instructors to "chinafy" themselves. Carry chopsticks, only read chinese literature, only watch kung fu movies, wear chinese hats, bash the U.S. - this is mainly a pet peeve only..

Are they planning to restore the Ming Dynasty to the US?

Is SD preparing for a Boxer Rebellion?

Maybe they'll all head for the Mexican border to chase all the foreigners out of the country?

Sin The' might be hearing from Homeland Security after this post. :eek:

[Baqualin]

Are they planning to restore the Ming Dynasty to the US?

Is SD preparing for a Boxer Rebellion?

Maybe they'll all head for the Mexican border to chase all the foreigners out of the country?

Sin The' might be hearing from Homeland Security after this post. :eek:

The're not SD:eek:
BQ

[sean_stonehart]

So its OK to say Brazilian Jujitsu but not Chinese Jujitsu and Shaolin but not Shaolin Do but you can say Tao, jeez, what an arrogant biggot you guys have become. BTW Jujitsu most definately has its origins in Chin Na / seizing arts of China most everything Japan has is from China or the surrounding area. Give the guy a break. KC

Get over yourself.

I never said the Brazilians were right about their *******izing jujutsu. It has one spelling. The Americans & Brazilians have decided to make it phonetic instead of correct.

And yes, it is not correct to say Chinese jujitsu.

Do = Cantonese, Tao = Mandarin. Take your pick ... Shaolin-Tao or Siu Lum Do. Either way pronounced properly still wouldn't matter given the subject at hand.

BTW... jujitsu has its origin in Japanese jujutsu which has some koryu schools acknowledging a connection to China and others not. Depends on the region & age of the school.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Baqualin;799803]

Then how can he say he is a master of these styles if the only way he knows them is through the manuscripts? If he did know them, then he must have forgotten them or they wouldn't have been close to being lost.

Second sentence is correct......alot of the material he hasn't done for years and it helps to have reference material......I have everything I study on DVD and refer to it on a regular basis (teaching reference).
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Are they planning to restore the Ming Dynasty to the US?

Is SD preparing for a Boxer Rebellion?

Maybe they'll all head for the Mexican border to chase all the foreigners out of the country?

Sin The' might be hearing from Homeland Security after this post. :eek:

Well, kung fu has always attracted an element that romanticizes Chinese culture, but I think, from my experience, that this is more of a CSC thing as well. Most of my classmates are rednecks (being from Tennessee and all).

[sean_stonehart]

Most of my classmates are rednecks (being from Tennessee and all).


Naw... not y'all!!!:eek::eek:

[kwaichang]

Wrong about the Ju jitsu thing sean i will explain later. KC

[Yao Sing]

The're not SD:eek:
BQ

Sorry, CSC and SD are all the same to me.


I never said the Brazilians were right about their *******izing jujutsu. It has one spelling. The Americans & Brazilians have decided to make it phonetic instead of correct.

I've heard that BJJ isn't even an offshoot or derived from Japanese Jujutsu. It's based on some other type of wrestling. Might have been Ross who posted that info, don't remember.

[MasterKiller]

Sorry, CSC and SD are all the same to me.



I've heard that BJJ isn't even an offshoot or derived from Japanese Jujutsu. It's based on some other type of wrestling. Might have been Ross who posted that info, don't remember.

BJJ comes from Judo.

[brucereiter]

Thanks for posting. Keep in mind that some of your listed "disadvantages" are unique to your experiences in the CSC (such as the emphasis on vegans--wow, I had never heard that one before).

i think "pa kua" was speaking of the denver schools with the vegan/politics etc ... not to be confused with the atlanta csc's ...

[sean_stonehart]

Wrong about the Ju jitsu thing sean i will explain later. KC

It'll be interesting I'm sure. I spent several years in the early to mid 90's in Japanese arts that weren't karate-do.

[Judge Pen]

i think "pa kua" was speaking of the denver schools with the vegan/politics etc ... not to be confused with the atlanta csc's ...

Yeah, you're right--CSC Soards not CSC Atlanta. Sorry for the confusion.

[Pa Kua]

When I spoke of CSCs I wasn't referring to Atlanta CSCs - sorry for any confusion.

Overall, the CSCs that I have seen are well run (i.e. professional). It's just that the politics get in the way of martial arts instruction and can ruin the experience which they shouldn't.

KC - can you offer any info on the chinese origins of jujitsu (websites etc)? Thanks!

[kwaichang]

The Gracie style was created in Brazil in the early part of this century by Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu pioneer Carlos Gracie, who studied traditional Japanese Jujitsu as a teenager under the great Japanese champion, Mitsui Maeda Koma ("Count Koma").

Carlos Gracie, who was interested in streetfighting and was also a boxer, quickly modified the classical techniques he learned from Count Koma to meet the demands of real, "no rules" fighting in the streets of Brazil.

SO BJJ CAME FROM JAPAN KC

[kwaichang]

The Chinese have a great deal of stories to support the history of their martial arts. The general idea embraced by most historians is that systemized martial arts techniques came from India along with Buddhism (Bodhi Dharma). The concept here is that the Shaolin temple was built in the center of China and this is where Bodhi Dharma introduced Buddhism and Boxing (senzuikyo). (ref. Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts, Sugawara and Xing) The story that supports the idea of Jiu-Jitsu coming from China takes place around the time of the fall of the Ming Dynasty. It states that a man named Chingempin came from Japan to live in Tokyo at a Buddhist temple where he met three Ronin (masterless Samurai) named Fukuno, Isogai, and Miura. Chingempin told the Ronin of a grappling art he had seen in China. The Ronin became particularly interested in pursuing the study of this art, so he then began teaching in Japan, and this art became Jiu-Jitsu.

Excerpted from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, The Master Text by Gene Simco. For the complete history, buy the book!
The next theory is that there was many forms of wrestling that had developed in China. One of the most notable is Horn Wrestling, called Jiaodixi. This form of wrestling was practiced by the Mongolians and later evolved into Jiaoli, which was wrestling without the horns. This form of wrestling can be seen in Native American cultures (evident in the typical Native American Buffalo head wear) and most likely arrived there by way of Mongolians migrating through now modern Alaska. Jiaoli evolved and became Xiangpu and it is said that this form of wrestling became Sumo in Japan. Another theory says that there were practitioners of Chikura Karube, a wrestling sport developed around 200 B.C. It is said that Chikura Karube later became Jiu-Jitsu in Japan.
THERE YOU GO KC

[kwaichang]

The first dated mention of ju-jitsu was during the period 772 - 481 B.C. when open-hand techniques were used during the Choon Chu era of China. In A.D. 525 Boddhidrarma, a Zen Buddhist monk, traveled from India to China, visiting the Shaolin monastery. He soon combined Chinese Kempo (Kenpo in Japanese) with Yoga breathing to form Shaolin Chuan Fa - Shorinji Kenpo in Japanese (Shorinji is the Japanese spelling of the Chinese Shaolin. The Shaolin monastery is considered to be the source of Sil Lum Kung Fu). As legend has it, Boddhidrarma eventually developed the system further into what became Go - Shin - Jutsu - Karate (self-defense art of open hand).

In 230 B.C. the wrestling sport of Chikura Kurabe developed in Japan and was integrated into Ju-Jitsu. Approximately 2,000 years ago there is also mention of the development of wrestling and related techniques that served as the base of Ju-Jitsu. There is evidence that empty - hand techniques were in use during the Heian period (A.D. 794 - 1185) in Japan, but in conjunction with weapons training for samurai. In AD 880 Prince Teijun (also known as Sadagami) formed the Daito - Ryu Aiki Ju-Jitsu School. Daito - Ryu Aiki Ju-Jitsu was based upon the secret teachings of Shugendo (SHU - search, KEN - power, DO - way), the eventual source of Kendo, which used circular hand motions to assist in defending oneself with weapons. It was from this school that Morihei Uyeshiba took portions of the art to start his own system of Aikido in 1925.

Thought this was interesting KC

[sean_stonehart]

The Chinese have a great deal of stories to support the history of their martial arts. The general idea embraced by most historians is that systemized martial arts techniques came from India along with Buddhism (Bodhi Dharma). The concept here is that the Shaolin temple was built in the center of China and this is where Bodhi Dharma introduced Buddhism and Boxing (senzuikyo). (ref. Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts, Sugawara and Xing) The story that supports the idea of Jiu-Jitsu coming from China takes place around the time of the fall of the Ming Dynasty. It states that a man named Chingempin came from Japan to live in Tokyo at a Buddhist temple where he met three Ronin (masterless Samurai) named Fukuno, Isogai, and Miura. Chingempin told the Ronin of a grappling art he had seen in China. The Ronin became particularly interested in pursuing the study of this art, so he then began teaching in Japan, and this art became Jiu-Jitsu.

Excerpted from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, The Master Text by Gene Simco. For the complete history, buy the book!
The next theory is that there was many forms of wrestling that had developed in China. One of the most notable is Horn Wrestling, called Jiaodixi. This form of wrestling was practiced by the Mongolians and later evolved into Jiaoli, which was wrestling without the horns. This form of wrestling can be seen in Native American cultures (evident in the typical Native American Buffalo head wear) and most likely arrived there by way of Mongolians migrating through now modern Alaska. Jiaoli evolved and became Xiangpu and it is said that this form of wrestling became Sumo in Japan. Another theory says that there were practitioners of Chikura Karube, a wrestling sport developed around 200 B.C. It is said that Chikura Karube later became Jiu-Jitsu in Japan.
THERE YOU GO KC

Great... theories & stories. Where's the fact? Chinese have been leaving China for Japan (or where ever) long before the Ming Dynasty. One such great exodus was at the end of Tang before the Yuan.... or so the story goes.;)

Go pass those stories off to Meik & Diane Skoss. If they say they fly, you'll have me supporting them. Of if you can devine a jujutsu ryu coming from Shaolin from this mini-list (http://www.koryu.com/guide/ryuguide.html), I'll be good to go.

[sean_stonehart]

The first dated mention of ju-jitsu was during the period 772 - 481 B.C. when open-hand techniques were used during the Choon Chu era of China. In A.D. 525 Boddhidrarma, a Zen Buddhist monk, traveled from India to China, visiting the Shaolin monastery. He soon combined Chinese Kempo (Kenpo in Japanese) with Yoga breathing to form Shaolin Chuan Fa - Shorinji Kenpo in Japanese (Shorinji is the Japanese spelling of the Chinese Shaolin. The Shaolin monastery is considered to be the source of Sil Lum Kung Fu). As legend has it, Boddhidrarma eventually developed the system further into what became Go - Shin - Jutsu - Karate (self-defense art of open hand).

Bodidharma not Boddhidrarma... Daruma in Japan.

Goshin-jutsu... self defense... by itself not a big deal... bring it the states by a green belt of Count Dante & it becomes a create bigger than SD. Check out Gerald Durante... at your own risk.



In 230 B.C. the wrestling sport of Chikura Kurabe developed in Japan and was integrated into Ju-Jitsu. Approximately 2,000 years ago there is also mention of the development of wrestling and related techniques that served as the base of Ju-Jitsu. There is evidence that empty - hand techniques were in use during the Heian period (A.D. 794 - 1185) in Japan, but in conjunction with weapons training for samurai. In AD 880 Prince Teijun (also known as Sadagami) formed the Daito - Ryu Aiki Ju-Jitsu School. Daito - Ryu Aiki Ju-Jitsu was based upon the secret teachings of Shugendo (SHU - search, KEN - power, DO - way), the eventual source of Kendo, which used circular hand motions to assist in defending oneself with weapons. It was from this school that Morihei Uyeshiba took portions of the art to start his own system of Aikido in 1925.

Thought this was interesting KC

Daito-ryu Aikijutsu ... nearly as flammable... just like Ueshiba studying Bagua while in Manchuria during the Sino-Japanese War where he could "see bullets" as they were fired at him... like ... (fill in appropriate SD reference)

[kwaichang]

3seperate references go figure there are more no time to waste on this KC

[bodhi warrior]

was master eric smith at the gathering? If so did he do any demos, if yes what did he do?

[Judge Pen]

This is why I hate debating lineage....eventually everyone's lineage gets to the little old man on the mountain or the wandering monk or something else as equally unverifiable as a founder or revolutionary mind in the development of a style. It makes for great story time, but that's about it. It would be interesting to list a bunch of well-respected styles, and trace their lineage back to the controverisal character--the one no one can really prove outside of stories (a) that he even existed or (b) that he actually had a hand in developing the art.

For example, Yeu Fei anyone? How many styles can be attributed to him?

[kwaichang]

Right JP May the force be with you Saturday. Sounds like Sean was burned by SD or someone in it much like WS KC:)

[kwaichang]

The traditional Chinese martial art known as Eagle Claw (Yīng Zhǎo Pài 鷹爪派) is one of the oldest and most complex of the surviving Northern Shaolin kung fu systems.[citation needed] Along with the long strikes and kicks that typify Northern systems, the Eagle Claw system is distinguished by its gripping techniques and system of joint locks, takedowns, and pressure point strikes, which represent one of the oldest forms of the Chinese grappling known as Chin Na.

Contents [hide]
1 History
1.1 Yue Fei
1.1.1 Elephant Fist
1.2 Shaolin Temple
1.3 Secret Art
1.4 Liu Shi Jun and Liu Cheng You
1.5 Chin Woo Athletic Association
1.6 Lineages
2 Training
3 Movies
4 References



[edit] History
While the details of the history alter according to the teller, with names and places shifting as they tend to do in any oral history, in essence the story of Eagle Claw began in the Shaolin Temple and in Chinese military training, became a family tradition passed on from parent to child for generations, and eventually shed its air of secrecy with the advent of public martial arts schools.


[edit] Yue Fei
Eagle Claw is said to have had its origins in 1130,from Yue Fei岳飛 (Ngok Fei) who lived at a time of warfare between the Southern Song Dynasty and the Jurchen who later founded Jin Dynasty (the Jurechen were the ancestors of the Manchus of the Qing Dynasty).

Yue Fei credited his victories in battle to his martial arts training under Zhao Tong 周侗(Jow Tong)and Chen Guang 陈广. These skills included Archery, hand to hand combat, spear, horsemanship, etc.

His Hand Skills became known as the Yī Bǎi Ling Bā Qín Ná(Yat Ling Bat Kahm Na) (一百零八擒拿 – “108 Seize-Grab”) techniques, which were supposedly based on a much older system only known as “Elephant Fist象拳”, and focused on seizing, locking, and pressure point strikes.

These 108 techniques became the staple of his new style called Ying Quan/Shou 鷹拳/手 - Eagle Fist/Hand which he taught to his soldiers.


[edit] Elephant Fist
In Chinese, elephant is pronounced Xiàng (象). However, the same character can also mean "shape, form, or appearance". The elephant style in question might be a mistranslation of xiang, which actually refers to Xiang Xing Quan (象形拳 - "Imitation Boxing"), a fighting technique which emphasizes the imitation of the offensive and defensive actions of a certain animal or person.


[edit] Shaolin Temple
In the late Ming Dynasty Yue Fei's material is said to have made a re-appearance at a Shaolin Temple少林寺. Li Quan Seng(麗泉)Lai Chin)an expert in the Fānziquán Style encountered soldiers practicing the hand techniques they called Ying Quan (Ying Kuen) Eagle Fist.

After taking the time to learn and master these skills he undertook the daunting task of combining them into his pre-existing Fanziquan sets.

He called his new system Ying Quan (鷹拳)


[edit] Secret Art
In 1644 the Ming Dynasty was ovethrown and replaced by the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). Royal family members of the fallen Ming Household went into hiding, with many becoming monks, scholars and artists.

Zhu Ruoji (1642 - 1707) aka Yuanji ****AO,was a low level prince and 2 years of age when the Ming Dynasty fell.

Later on in his life he took the name Dao Ji(道濟僧)(Toa Gai)

Dao Ji(道濟僧)(Toa Gai) had received martial arts instruction as part of his official education. It is no known if Eagle Claw was part of that instruction while in the Imperial Palace or after he had become a Monk.

Fa Seng(法成僧)(Fat Sheng)was another Martial Monk. It is unclear whether he was a classmate of Dao Ji or his student.


[edit] Liu Shi Jun and Liu Cheng You
Liu Shi Jun(劉士俊) is considered the founder (Sijo) of the Eagle Claw System yīng zhuǎ fān zi quán (鷹爪翻子拳 ).

At a young age he enjoyed martial arts and had many teachers from various styles. Around middle age he learned from two eminent monks of the time - Fa Seng(法成僧)Fat Sheng then (Dao Ji(道濟僧)(Toa Gai).

Late in his career he obtained a position of Martial Arts Instructor at one of the military barracks in the Capital, Beijing where he instructed the troops in his martial arts which consisted of Fist and Spear skills.

His 2 most prominent students of that period were Liu Dekuan(劉德寬)and Ji Zixiu纪子修.

At this point the system was not known as Eagle Claw but Bafanshou/Bashanfan 八閃翻; (8 flash/evasive tumbles"), or Fanziquan 翻子拳 (Reversing/tumbling Fist).

He was also known as "Dai Gong Ji Liu" Great Sage Liu for his expertise in his Dai Liu He Qiang (big 6 harmony Spear)


Liu Chen You(劉成有) 1st learned martial arts from his uncle Liu Dekuan(劉德寬) who had been a student of Liu Shi Jun when stationed in Beijing. He continued his instruction under other other prominent martial artist of the region. When Liu Shi Jun retired back to his home village Liu Chen You received advanced training from him.

Liu Chen You was a very strict teacher and only accepted a few students. Of those who were considered competent 3 were : Liu Qi Wen (劉啟文), Chen Zizheng (陳子正)and Zhang Zhan Wen.


[edit] Chin Woo Athletic Association
The Chin Woo Athletic Association 精武體育會 was an founded by the famed martial artist Huo Yuanjia 霍元甲(Fawk Yun Gop) in Shangahi. Its purpose was the dissemination of not only Martial Arts but sports and other educational systems to the public.

The Eagle Claw system remained relatively restricted to the Xiong County 雄县, Baoding City 保定 in Hebei Province 河北 until Chen Zizheng (Chan Tzi Ching) was invited to teach at the Chin Wu.

After initial success with the 1st School in Shanghai Chen ZiZheng went to his training brother Liu Qi Wen to offer his students careers as Martial Arts instructors in the Chin Woo Association. In time Eagle Claw was being taught in Shangahi, Hong Kong, Guandong, Futsan, Singapore, Malaysia etc.

It is for this reason that many of todays exponents also teach numerous other sets/forms which were acquired by their teachers who had learned in the Chin Woo Schools.


[edit] Lineages
There are 3 main Eagle Claw Lineages that most teachers/schools can trace their style to.

Liu Qiwen(劉啟文)(Lau Kai Man),

Chen Zizheng (陳子正)(Chan Tzi Ching)

Zhang Zhan Wen(Chian Jin Man).

For specific school listings you can visit the

Eagle Claw Kung Fu Society (listed in the reference section)


[edit] Training
How the Eagle Claw system is taught varies between each teachers skill and experiences. What is consistent of an Eagle Claw Master is their knowledge of the 3 core sets of the style.

Xin Quan 行拳(Hahng Kuen) is known as the Walking Fist. This set consists of 10-12 Rows of technqiues representative of the founding elements of the style. (Shaolin Quan, Fanzi Quan and Yue Shi San Shou).

Lian Quan 連拳(Lin Kuen) is known as the Linking Fist. A very important set in that it not only provides the exponent with an encyclopedic base of various Seizing, Grappling and Joint Locks but a set that incoporates various Qi Gong Skills as well.

Yue Shi San Shou aka Yī Bǎi Ling Bā Qín Ná 一百零八擒拿(Yat Ling Bat Kahm Na)– “108 Seize Grab” aka 108 Locking Hands is considered the "Heart" of the Eagle Claw System. Believed to be the material passed down by the legendary Yue Fei of China's Song Dynasty. This material is 108 different categories of skills/techniques that are trained to a level of pefection with partners.

Missing any of the 3 core sets will severely hinder a students hope of mastering this style.
Sounds iffy to me KC:)

[sean_stonehart]

Right JP May the force be with you Saturday. Sounds like Sean was burned by SD or someone in it much like WS KC:)

Burned?? Not quite... I just ask questions that people like to dodge for some reason. Until I get an answer, I keep asking.

BTW... what's iffy about Ying Jow? Or was that out of context sarcasm?

[Judge Pen]

Burned?? Not quite... I just ask questions that people like to dodge for some reason. Until I get an answer, I keep asking.

BTW... what's iffy about Ying Jow? Or was that out of context sarcasm?

Nothing's "iffy" about it except the extent of Yue Fei's involvment. Some sources of Hsing Ie also attribute their art as developed by Yue Fei as well. He seems to be a popular figure to attribute the origins of a style to.

Note, I'm not debating the lineage of Ying Jow or Hsing Ie. Just noting that Yue Fei gets a lot of credit.

[sean_stonehart]

Nothing's "iffy" about it except the extent of Yue Fei's involvment. Some sources of Hsing Ie also attribute their art as developed by Yue Fei as well. He seems to be a popular figure to attribute the origins of a style to.

Note, I'm not debating the lineage of Ying Jow or Hsing Ie. Just noting that Yue Fei gets a lot of credit.

Nah... I'm asking about "iffy" in his comment.

You're right though... Yue Fei gets lots of credit on things.

[MasterKiller]

The thing about the Chinese jujitsu, though, is that in China why would they call it Chinese jujitsu? He could certainly be teaching some sort of Chin Na, and he could just be using the term for convenience, but you would think a legitimate Chinese system STILL IN CHINA would have a Chinese name.

[Baqualin]

The thing about the Chinese jujitsu, though, is that in China why would they call it Chinese jujitsu? He could certainly be teaching some sort of Chin Na, and he could just be using the term for convenience, but you would think a legitimate Chinese system STILL IN CHINA would have a Chinese name.

Makes since to me MK:confused:
BQ

[Citong Shifu]

When I spoke of CSCs I wasn't referring to Atlanta CSCs - sorry for any confusion.

Overall, the CSCs that I have seen are well run (i.e. professional). It's just that the politics get in the way of martial arts instruction and can ruin the experience which they shouldn't.

KC - can you offer any info on the chinese origins of jujitsu (websites etc)? Thanks!

How do people fall into these kinds of schools (CSC)? Especially, parents who let their children attend. I can see the like minded getting off on this but not the everyday person with logic to see their behavior and mannerism. You wouldn't have to tell me twice, I'd be gone. Anyway, cant figure it out... Oh well.

[The Willow Sword]

Sounds like Sean was burned by SD or someone in it much like WS KC

i wasnt really "Burned" By SD, persay. If anything, SD dissapointed me to the core when i discovered the fabrication in the lineage. If i was "Burned" at all by anything SD it was Joe Shaefer(just reiderating to KC since he decided to comment about it);)


just for the record, before i decided to leave SD, i had done my research and found what i did regarding the su kong pics,and in being convinced of the lineage fabrication, and incorporating that into how i felt about the whole challenge situation and the shakey support i was given by joe and then the backing out at the last minute. I began to realize two important things about MY time at SD.

One is that in order to maintain your business(when you decide to put money priorities over honor, integrity and support of your loyals) you have to at least maintain a certain amount of neutrality with your competition in the area so that you do not create any undue animosity.

TWO: when you have a student, no matter how dedicated that student is to you and the school, if you dont like him personally or he is not the personality or ego that you really connect with, then it is quite easy to do subtle and passive things to get that student to leave rather than being upfront and asking him to leave because he is not wanted there(again this goes back to putting money priorities over honor integrity etc etc).
I seems weird though that i had been given all this responsability there at the school, at one time, yet i was kept from quite a bit of the extra-curricular activities(demos at tourneys and such). It is why,in retrospect,i felt like i was taken advantage of and USED until i could hardly do anything anymore and it showed with others, the losing of too much weight and just looking like i was overworked.
It was one of the main reasons why i moved in late 2000 to new mexico to try and teach SD out there(LOL what a BS trip that was). I needed the rest and recouperation and i had always wanted to teach on my own,yet i was NEVER Officially given any document stating that i was a "TEACHER", just a word of mouth by Joe that i could:confused:. No advice,No real Mentoring, no real connection other than an employer and employee relationship,which in my opinion, is NOT how a student and teacher relationship should be, even if he is employed with you).
Anyway i am rambling,sorry bout that i could go on in detail about stuff. had to get it out of the noodle.

Peace,TWS

[bodhi warrior]

so how did you come to realize the lineage was fabricated? Did you find proof?

[Yao Sing]

Isn't the whole Su Kong picture thing in this thread or was that another thread before it all consolidated into this one?

I still say face recognition software would an interesting way to compare the photos but I just don't knnow anyone with access to such. I did find one I was going to download but would prefer to use a working system.

I even thought about sending the pics to one of the leading developers and see if they would return the results.

Anyone reading this have access to face recognition?

[kwaichang]

So if we are going to theorize, perhaps the Beijing Circus used a pic of Soo Kong Tai Jin for their advertisement. Just a thought since this whole thing is all doubt anyway. That would throw a monkey wrench in it right ?? also If Eagle Claw did not come from YUe Fei then it isnt legit either. man he sure did alot for a man who was killed at 39 years old. KC

[Judge Pen]

Wish me luck this weekend. I'm testing........

[BentMonk]

Wish me luck this weekend. I'm testing........

"Belt mean no need rope to hold up pants." - Mr. Myagi :D

j/k Best of luck to you sir. I'm sure you'll do well. Please tell SMM hello for me.

[brucereiter]

Wish me luck this weekend. I'm testing........

breath! just another practice session, with a whole bunch of people watching you :-)

enjoy

[Yao Sing]

So if we are going to theorize, perhaps the Beijing Circus used a pic of Soo Kong Tai Jin for their advertisement. Just a thought since this whole thing is all doubt anyway. That would throw a monkey wrench in it right ??

Why would they use Su Kong's picture when they already had a hairy man? You're not really making sense although I do realize that's your point. It just isn't working.

Good luck JP.

[kwaichang]

If you were a hairy guy and everybody saw you as a freak would you want your pic taken, well I wouldnt. Maybe that is why. Its all speculation anyway. KC

[kwaichang]

Or perhaps SKTJ didnt want his pic taken and Maser Ie saw LI bao Shu's pic and said that looks something like him I'll use that as a pic of SKTJ WHO CARES ANY WAY, little did he know a thing called th computer would develope so many geeks.:) KC:D

[MasterKiller]

Wish me luck this weekend. I'm testing........

Good luck, broham. This is for 4th black, correct?

[MasterKiller]

If you were a hairy guy and everybody saw you as a freak would you want your pic taken, well I wouldnt. Maybe that is why. Its all speculation anyway. KC

If I was a hairy guy I wouldn't let a bear bite my arm, either...;)

[Flaca]

If you were a hairy guy and everybody saw you as a freak would you want your pic taken, well I wouldnt. Maybe that is why. Its all speculation anyway. KC

KC, so that's why you don't want to have your picture taken. Always wondered :D

jk

Pat

[Judge Pen]

Good luck, broham. This is for 4th black, correct?
Thanks. Yes, its for 4th.

[Judge Pen]

Or perhaps SKTJ didnt want his pic taken and Maser Ie saw LI bao Shu's pic and said that looks something like him I'll use that as a pic of SKTJ WHO CARES ANY WAY, little did he know a thing called th computer would develope so many geeks.:) KC:D


Maybe. Who knows?

[kungfujunky]

I've heard that story too except GM The was a 5th at the time (see the certificate translation earlier). After attending a few tournaments and seeing the skill of those who called themselves 6, 7, 8 9 or 10 degree black belts he reported this to his teacher who then promoted Master Sin to 10th. There is a letter floating around that is rumored to document this. I've seen a transcription of it, but I have no idea if its even remotely accurate or authentic. He was reposrtedly promoted to GM and 10th degree black in 1968 by Ie Chang Ming.

I'm curious to hear about your training. Who did you train with after leaving GM The?


heres some clarification on this point....

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/rankingsystem.jpg



he was a fifth level black belt...according to this belt ranking chart he was between 8th and 9th and 10th black.

[Shaolin Wookie]

5. The politics! Vegans are "worshipped". If you eat meat, you are a subclass of student. If someone wants to become an assistant instructor then they cannot imbide alcohol.

LOL, I'm trying to train to become an assistant instructor in the future, and I drink whiskey, so I guess I'm screwed. And sometimes I catch myself swearing in-kwoon, but I try not to (bad habits of a rebellious youth). Sometimes the F-bomb gets dropped without realizing it....but more likely, the S-bomb. I have a great vocabulary, but I intersperse swear words every now and then. LOL......and I've seen full-fledged instructors drinking beer at CSC holiday socials, so I guess they're screwed, too. Hell, there's even pictures of them on the internet. The reason I find this funny, is that in Chinese society drinking plays an important part in social relations. I guess they missed that part in their observation of the aescetic culture.

As for the meat-eating, I made my point clear on another thread. I'm steeped in blood, and happy to bathe in it. Or, in a more Shakesperean way: "steeped in the gore of my trade"

BTW, I wonder how they perform drunken styles. Zimaquan?


7. The desire of the school and students/instructors to "chinafy" themselves. Carry chopsticks, only read chinese literature, only watch kung fu movies, wear chinese hats, bash the U.S. - this is mainly a pet peeve only. I don't really care about what other people necessarily do. The school definitely has a "cult like" atmosphere with junior students following senior students/instructors actions (herd mentality). Ex. testing to higher belt levels and becoming vegan.

This is a symptom of every CMA school in the nation. Far less at CSC's, at least in Atlanta. Look at how many national CMA non-chinese teachers have CHinese wives, as if to lend credibility to their image. I'm not saying that's so, but many of these guys are die-hard occidentalists. They do everything chinese; it's one of those psychological things, where we're fascinated with what is different from the culture in which we are raised. How far you take it is always up to you. It's not that way at all CSC's, and it will always be an individual. Me? I'll never date another asian after my fiasco with a Cambodian chick as an undergrad. Wow, she was hot. But she was crazy, LOL. Everyone thought I was crazy for dumping her, 'cuz there's something about smoking hot asians that just turn off most male minds.:D I do like Chinese Lit, though. I think Journey to the West is easily as good as the Iliad, Aeneid, and Odyssey, and ought to be studied as such. But then, I'll only ever read the English translations, and would only teach them beside Chapman's translations of Homer, and Dryden's Aeneid. Despite my comprehension of Latin (in the case of the latter). Dryden was just better at his game, hand's down.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Isn't the whole Su Kong picture thing in this thread or was that another thread before it all consolidated into this one?

I still say face recognition software would an interesting way to compare the photos but I just don't knnow anyone with access to such. I did find one I was going to download but would prefer to use a working system.

I even thought about sending the pics to one of the leading developers and see if they would return the results.

Anyone reading this have access to face recognition?

GSU's library has the book by Dikotter in which the Li Po Sui (LI Baoshu) pics are located. I tried to check it out, but it's missing right now (GSU's library is doing renovation, and the book is in storage (non-student access), so it might just be shelved in the wrong storage compartment). It's also at UGA's library, but I won't be back there unless I need a source for my Tennyson paper this semester. It would be interesting to see if there's more pics to draw from.

[Shaolin Wookie]

heres some clarification on this point....

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/rankingsystem.jpg



he was a fifth level black belt...according to this belt ranking chart he was between 8th and 9th and 10th black.

"Elderly Master" makes me laugh my ass off every time I see that placard. LOL.....SD does suffer from bad editing. Grandmasterthe.com makes me cringe every time I see it. Changes in tenses, persons, passive voice......uggggh......it's an editor's nightmare. The "Secrets of the Shaolin Temple" book was even worse. It had to be a vanity publication.

From now on, I vote that all SD public documents must be submitted (forgive the passive voice usage here) to Shaolin Wookie, before they may be posted for public viewing.

[Yao Sing]

GSU's library has the book by Dikotter in which the Li Po Sui (LI Baoshu) pics are located.

I think Willow Sword said he found pics in an old edition of Ripley's Believe It Or Not and that it can no longer be found. I remember the jokes about SD going to all the libraries and removing them.

Don't know if it was supposed to be the exact same pic or just a similar one.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think Willow Sword said he found pics in an old edition of Ripley's Believe It Or Not and that it can no longer be found. I remember the jokes about SD going to all the libraries and removing them.

Don't know if it was supposed to be the exact same pic or just a similar one.

There are like billions of those old Guinness Books (TWS was not linking to Ripley's), and it'd take forever to search 'em. Plus, I don't know any libraries that have them on file.

But then the Li Po Sui stuff got linked to a website where all the other photos were located, which were taken from the book : Misconceptions: genetic defects...etc. by Frank Dikotter, a western geneticist living in China.

[sean_stonehart]

LOL, I'm trying to train to become an assistant instructor in the future, and I drink whiskey, so I guess I'm screwed. And sometimes I catch myself swearing in-kwoon, but I try not to (bad habits of a rebellious youth). Sometimes the F-bomb gets dropped without realizing it....but more likely, the S-bomb. I have a great vocabulary, but I intersperse swear words every now and then. LOL......and I've seen full-fledged instructors drinking beer at CSC holiday socials, so I guess they're screwed, too. Hell, there's even pictures of them on the internet. The reason I find this funny, is that in Chinese society drinking plays an important part in social relations. I guess they missed that part in their observation of the aescetic culture.

If you drink your chances go up. Firewater & you're almost a shoe in. I don't know about Midtown though... it could be a bit PC compared to Marietta.

I used to bartend along with several other isntructors at the Xmas party. Nobody left vertical if they came to the bar. Then again... that was Marietta. Ask about the house boat parties or UGA parties.

[kwaichang]

You guys are basing your entire argument on pics that could be Li Bao Shu or SKTJ all the pics could be the same guy but represented as the other. Even if the 2 or 3 pics are the same person it only proves the pics are the same person and does not prove that SKDJ did not exist . Ie Chang Ming could have easily used a pic of Li Bao Shu because he did not have one of SKTJ because of the similarities of the two. I wonder if JP would believe your premise would hold up in Court , I doubt it. KC:)

[chiballsoffire]

....lets go back to the Certificate. Its the one piece of evidence that the SD guys don't dispute as being authentic.

I recently posted a translation I found online for Sin The’s certificate and then shortly thereafter ‘Shaolindoiscool’ posted another very similar translation. There seem to be several problems with what’s listed here, the stories that are posted on this forum, and the main Shaolin-do websites; www.sinthe.com and www.grandmasterthe.com

Here’s a good quality photograph of the document provided by Shaolindoiscool: http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1sintherankcert-05.jpg

1. Nowhere on the document is the word ‘master’ or ‘grandmaster’ used, nor is it implied.

2. The person’s name on the document doesn’t appear to be Sin’s. A possible explanation is that ‘Sin The’ is his Indonesian name which is not unexpected, but its surprising that no one has taken issue with the apparent inconsistency.

3. The dates of study listed do not conform with the information given on the main SD sites:

The certificate is dated 1964, states Sin is twenty years old and that he has studied for 10 years.

“When he was 7 years old he began studying under one of Grandmaster Ie's top students. After proving himself worthy, he then studied under Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming as a private student until Ie Chang Ming retired and passed the title of Grandmaster to Sin Kwang Thé (at the age of 25).” Source: http://www.sinthe.com/grandmaster.html

“At the age of six, after an exhaustive six-month selection process which tested patience, endurance, dedication and temperament, Grandmaster E accepted me as a student.”
Source: http://www.grandmasterthe.com/biography.html (page 7 and 8)

4. There is nothing on the certificate to indicate any private instruction; on the contrary the wording seems to suggest a normal progression through “schools” and being awarded the appropriate rank after passing the required exams.


heres some clarification on this point....

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/rankingsystem.jpg



he was a fifth level black belt...according to this belt ranking chart he was between 8th and 9th and 10th black.

5. If you compare the Chinese characters listed on the belt ranking chart at http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/rankingsystem.jpg for a “5th Black” with those characters listed on Sin’s certificate you’ll find they match exactly. Sin was a 5th Dan Black Belt, nothing more.

6. The material listed on the certificate that Sin The supposedly minored in is not listed as being taught in any of the SD schools.

7. Nowhere on the document is the translated name of the school or the system referred to as ‘Shaolin-do’ or ‘Shaolin-tao.’ Instead its translated either as “Zhong Yuan” or “Central Plains” Shaolin. If this was the name of the school/system that Sin The studied, why isn’t that name used today?

8. Sin’s teacher, Ie Chang Ming, has signed the document and he lists himself as the “Founder” of the “Central Plains Shaolin Wushu school.” There is nothing in his seal or ‘signature block’ that suggests he is trying to pass himself off as a Shaolin Grandmaster. Seems like if you were the Grandmaster of the entire Shaolin system, or even a single temple, you’d want to list that on your martial arts school’s certificates. Also, there’s no indication that Ie even called himself a grandmaster. So what did he, or could he, pass on to Sin The? The leadership of the Indonesian school and the Central Plains Shaolin school? If he did pass this on, why wasn’t it enough for Sin? Why is there not a single Shaolin-do school in Indonesia today and over 100 in the U.S.?

[kwaichang]

If you read back the 450 so pages you will understand more HAPPY READING. kc

[bodhi warrior]

I think alot of it has to do with gms's big ego. He always seems to need to be the biggest and most of everything. His brother school is named after the school in Indonesia.

[kungfujunky]

lol if you knew gms you wouldnt say that

[bodhi warrior]

just look at some of the statements he makes and his actions. Youngest GM in shaolin history, largest fitness complex, 900 forms, wanting to be a movie star, and he's obviously had some cosmetic work done when looking at his 80's photos, and the dyed hair.

[kungfujunky]

you are so off base its funny

thanks for the chuckle!

[Pa Kua]

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why we can't train at both Shaolin Do schools and CSCs? I've heard that if someone trains out east then they couldn't attend a seminar for example in CA.

[tattooedmonk]

on the right side it says five levels of black belt .....could it mean that he mastered all five levels of black belt and that is the reason why he is the 10th degree black belt?? If he graduated then he would be more than a 5th black , correct??

[tattooedmonk]

LOL, I'm trying to train to become an assistant instructor in the future, and I drink whiskey, so I guess I'm screwed. And sometimes I catch myself swearing in-kwoon, but I try not to (bad habits of a rebellious youth). Sometimes the F-bomb gets dropped without realizing it....but more likely, the S-bomb. I have a great vocabulary, but I intersperse swear words every now and then. LOL......and I've seen full-fledged instructors drinking beer at CSC holiday socials, so I guess they're screwed, too. Hell, there's even pictures of them on the internet. The reason I find this funny, is that in Chinese society drinking plays an important part in social relations. I guess they missed that part in their observation of the aescetic culture.

As for the meat-eating, I made my point clear on another thread. I'm steeped in blood, and happy to bathe in it. Or, in a more Shakesperean way: "steeped in the gore of my trade"

BTW, I wonder how they perform drunken styles. Zimaquan?



This is a symptom of every CMA school in the nation. Far less at CSC's, at least in Atlanta. Look at how many national CMA non-chinese teachers have CHinese wives, as if to lend credibility to their image. I'm not saying that's so, but many of these guys are die-hard occidentalists. They do everything chinese; it's one of those psychological things, where we're fascinated with what is different from the culture in which we are raised. How far you take it is always up to you. It's not that way at all CSC's, and it will always be an individual. Me? I'll never date another asian after my fiasco with a Cambodian chick as an undergrad. Wow, she was hot. But she was crazy, LOL. Everyone thought I was crazy for dumping her, 'cuz there's something about smoking hot asians that just turn off most male minds.:D I do like Chinese Lit, though. I think Journey to the West is easily as good as the Iliad, Aeneid, and Odyssey, and ought to be studied as such. But then, I'll only ever read the English translations, and would only teach them beside Chapman's translations of Homer, and Dryden's Aeneid. Despite my comprehension of Latin (in the case of the latter). Dryden was just better at his game, hand's down.Yeah all this stuff about being vegan is new . Up until a few years ago they ate fast food all the time. And yes you are looked at like a subclass student if you eat meat and do not follow what they tell you to do in every aspect of your life. It used to be you could have a beer or glass of wine at a wedding or on special occasion. I remember one time they were here in LA and one of the students brought a 12 pack .We all part took of them, but as soon as SS heard them being opened she was set off . Now seeing as they only come to town once a year is this not considered a special occasion??

You should have heard what said once they found out I partook of the herb!!!:D

[kungfujunky]

THATS representative of the grandmasters belt

[Judge Pen]

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why we can't train at both Shaolin Do schools and CSCs? I've heard that if someone trains out east then they couldn't attend a seminar for example in CA.

Its up the the Elder Masters that oversee their sphere of influence. If a CSC student was traveling in our area and wanted to train, then I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem.

[kwaichang]

Are you really sure JP ? Really sure ??? KC

[Judge Pen]

Are you really sure JP ? Really sure ??? KC

At least it used to be that way. There's a lot of politics that get in the way sometimes. Maybe someday it will get better.

[Shaolin Wookie]

You guys are basing your entire argument on pics that could be Li Bao Shu or SKTJ all the pics could be the same guy but represented as the other. Even if the 2 or 3 pics are the same person it only proves the pics are the same person and does not prove that SKDJ did not exist . Ie Chang Ming could have easily used a pic of Li Bao Shu because he did not have one of SKTJ because of the similarities of the two. I wonder if JP would believe your premise would hold up in Court , I doubt it. KC:)

It's called research. The principle isn't necessarily to strengthen your own position for your own personal edification, but to find out the facts so that you can understand what was done for what reason. Say the pictures were of Li Baoshu....it would simply mean that someone procured a pic of Li Po Sui because he had the same condition as SKTJ.

This is just a researcher talking here, so it might not mean much.

For instance: I came across the "wild hairy mountain men" references in the poet Yuan Mei's poetry (late 1700's). He described these hermetic, hairy men, found variously throughout China's mountains (I think the notes said Hebei Sheng, in particular). It was, for him, a way to disparage and dehumanize those people who shunned society and sought a reclusive asceticism. In his eyes, it became a negative thing.

So, if these ideas were extant in the 1700's, it seems to period the existence of local myths about exceptionally hairy men in the mountains, who shunned human society.

That's the prototype for SKTJ. Then, if you know a little something about C. Jung and archetypes.....it's an interesting thing.

I'll try to find the poem again, and print it here, just for kicks.

PS--none of this has anything to do with training. The training is the training, the stories is the stories. But when someone tells me something about a subject I'm not well-versed in, I feel the responsibility to look it up. Ever write a 20 page grad school research paper w/ a minimum of 20 sources? If you don't check your references, you die in the water. So if it's Li Po Sui, it's Li Po Sui. No big deal.

Don't deny, deny, deny.
Embrace.

BTW, there's a Chinese guy with hypertrichosis who's trying to get permission to run with the olympic torch in Beijing.

[Shaolin Wookie]

You should have heard what said once they found out I partook of the herb!!!:D

I'm guessing that you aren't talking about the iron palm.......perhaps the iron lung?:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

If you drink your chances go up. Firewater & you're almost a shoe in. I don't know about Midtown though... it could be a bit PC compared to Marietta.

I used to bartend along with several other isntructors at the Xmas party. Nobody left vertical if they came to the bar. Then again... that was Marietta. Ask about the house boat parties or UGA parties.

Nah, I'm not a social drinker. I don't like any parties, to be honest.

So what's the deal? Why do people just have a romanticized notion of Chinese culture (not just an SD issue)? Like it's always serious, sober, vegan, polite, and self-effacing?

Interesting things to note:

Shaolin granted permission by Li Shimin to eat dog, if I'm not mistaken.
Chinese society drinks as a way to socialize, and I'm not talking Bud Light.
Vegans are wimps. :eek::D:p

I wonder.....were they equally horrified by sex? LOL........Shaolin were virgified for life.....ouch.

Take the curious instance of Lu Da. He ate meat and drank (and relieved himself behind the temple). It wasn't exactly smiled upon, but it didn't get him kicked out (at least, not immediately).:D:cool:

At least most of us have the politeness to make use of the "officially sanctioned" restroom.

[Golden Tiger]

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why we can't train at both Shaolin Do schools and CSCs? I've heard that if someone trains out east then they couldn't attend a seminar for example in CA.


There have been several students from the west, including Denver, come out and train at the Lex gym. They were always welcome and treated as a brother/sister student of SD.

As for the seminars, all I am aware of is that after the "great divide" between the east, west and south, some of the head honcho's of the two later areas made an issue out of not wanting their students coming to Lexington and getting the material before said head honchos got it.:rolleyes:


just look at some of the statements he makes and his actions. Youngest GM in shaolin history, largest fitness complex, 900 forms, wanting to be a movie star, and he's obviously had some cosmetic work done when looking at his 80's photos, and the dyed hair.

Well, he was the youngest GM at the time, he did build the largest sports complex in the area and while 900 is a big number, so far he's on number 200 plus and still getting new stuff out. As for wanting to be a movie star, well, movie stars gets the hottest babes, can't fault him for that. As for the cosmetic work, he did have surgery on his shoulder but I am not sure if that was with botox or without.:eek: It might have been because he spent 10 hours a day, every day, training in the gym at a pace that none of his students could keep up with. we were even encouraged to join and work out with him....I couldn't keep up, even the best student at the time couldn't keep up. I will agree with the dyed hair...a sure sign of an overactive ego at work.:rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

So if some one co;ors or high lites their hair they have an ego problem ??? so if you comb your hair or shave you have an ego problem too and if you wear deodorant you have an ego problem. People shouldnt try to force their morays on others. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

and if you wear deodorant you have an ego problem. People shouldnt try to force their morays on others. KC

No, you wear deodorant so you don't have a BO problem.

And what do eels have anything to do with this issue?

Ohhhhh, you meant mores......;):D

Anyone who has stood in front of him and seen the tattered state of his red belt would throw that ego charge right out the window....LOL.

You gotta respect that. I hope my belt gets that frayed from use some day. Screw the "white belt turning black" thing. I want mine to be ripped up from wear and tear, too.

As for the movie thing. He's got a story to tell, and he likes telling it. He takes classes in scriptwriting....it's a passion for him. Who are we to crap on that? I'm a writer, too.

[brucereiter]

Here’s a good quality photograph of the document provided by Shaolindoiscool: http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1sintherankcert-05.jpg

2. The person’s name on the document doesn’t appear to be Sin’s. A possible explanation is that ‘Sin The’ is his Indonesian name which is not unexpected, but its surprising that no one has taken issue with the apparent inconsistency.


"Zheng Shenguang" means the same thing as "sin kwang the" i do not know what system gmt used to spell his name as we know it but the chinese characters on his signature translate to the above as far as i have been able to tell from having a chinese friend look at it and read it to me.



3. The dates of study listed do not conform with the information given on the main SD sites:

The certificate is dated 1964, states Sin is twenty years old and that he has studied for 10 years.

“When he was 7 years old he began studying under one of Grandmaster Ie's top students. After proving himself worthy, he then studied under Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming as a private student until Ie Chang Ming retired and passed the title of Grandmaster to Sin Kwang Thé (at the age of 25).” Source: http://www.sinthe.com/grandmaster.html

“At the age of six, after an exhaustive six-month selection process which tested patience, endurance, dedication and temperament, Grandmaster E accepted me as a student.”
Source: http://www.grandmasterthe.com/biography.html (page 7 and 8)


look closer and also refer to the "time line" i posted last week.





4. There is nothing on the certificate to indicate any private instruction; on the contrary the wording seems to suggest a normal progression through “schools” and being awarded the appropriate rank after passing the required exams.

this is what it appears to be but it does not say specifically how gmt training was structured. it would be interesting to hear accounts of this part of gmt's life and training.

<<, and has joined in many open
martial arts competitions held by the school, and made a clean sweep champion. He has been
awarded the highest Wushu athletics medal of the school. >>
this quote from the cert is interesting ... it implies that there may have been competitions with other schools i wonder if any of the "other" schools can share accounts of this. what were these competitions?





5. If you compare the Chinese characters listed on the belt ranking chart at http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/rankingsystem.jpg for a “5th Black” with those characters listed on Sin’s certificate you’ll find they match exactly. Sin was a 5th Dan Black Belt, nothing more.

this is true it appears. from what i understand ie chang ming made gmt the grandmaster of his system in 1968 about 4 years after he came to the usa.





6. The material listed on the certificate that Sin The supposedly minored in is not listed as being taught in any of the SD schools.
i dont know why this is or if he has taught variations of this ...





7. Nowhere on the document is the translated name of the school or the system referred to as ‘Shaolin-do’ or ‘Shaolin-tao.’ Instead its translated either as “Zhong Yuan” or “Central Plains” Shaolin. If this was the name of the school/system that Sin The studied, why isn’t that name used today?

please refer to my previous posts regarding the copyright/trademark of the system. it states the first use of the phrase "shaolin do" was used in 1978. i think this will explain why there is no reference to "shaolin do" on the cert.




8. Sin’s teacher, Ie Chang Ming, has signed the document and he lists himself as the “Founder” of the “Central Plains Shaolin Wushu school.” There is nothing in his seal or ‘signature block’ that suggests he is trying to pass himself off as a Shaolin Grandmaster. Seems like if you were the Grandmaster of the entire Shaolin system, or even a single temple, you’d want to list that on your martial arts school’s certificates. Also, there’s no indication that Ie even called himself a grandmaster. So what did he, or could he, pass on to Sin The? The leadership of the Indonesian school and the Central Plains Shaolin school? If he did pass this on, why wasn’t it enough for Sin? Why is there not a single Shaolin-do school in Indonesia today and over 100 in the U.S.?
i think understanding the context the word "shaolin" is used is important to understanding that. "founder" and "president" i think could imply "grandmaster" my grasp of chinese is limited though ...

[brucereiter]

THATS representative of the grandmasters belt

is this what you think it is or know it is ... there is a difference, i think when we type about this subject if we are typing something we can "prove" type what ever but if it is our "opinion" we should state that so as to not add more confusion to the debate.

[brucereiter]

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why we can't train at both Shaolin Do schools and CSCs? I've heard that if someone trains out east then they couldn't attend a seminar for example in CA.

any student who studies under gmt is more than welcome to come to any of the atlanta schools to train. if you are visiting just come on by and sign a waiver and you can join classes. we have had a few students from other schools east and west come by for a week of 2. i have been welcomed into several schools east and west and treated with respect by every shaolin do student and teacher i have met.

regarding seminars i do not know about that. i think some teachers may want new material to be introduced to the student by someone under them to maintain the same version being taught to the students as each of the schools have a different "flavor".

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL....we should just divide the material up between the different schools, according to temple origin of styles, and see what happens to how the material develops. That would be interesting.

Shotgun Henan.....

[kungfujunky]

is this what you think it is or know it is ... there is a difference, i think when we type about this subject if we are typing something we can "prove" type what ever but if it is our "opinion" we should state that so as to not add more confusion to the debate.


looking at this bottom right corner

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1sintherankcert-05.jpg

its a red and black belt representative of the grandmasters belt

just like here:

http://www.sinthe.com/images/gmbelt2.jpg

it is a logical conclusion but yes it is my opinion

[kungfujunky]

regarding seminars i do not know about that. i think some teachers may want new material to be introduced to the student by someone under them to maintain the same version being taught to the students as each of the schools have a different "flavor".

im not to sure that there is that much difference as some might think.

recently a brown belt from the texas group joined my school in colorado and he was basically doing the same exact things we were for all of his material.

there were very few and very minor differences that could easily be attributed to the teachers own physiological limitations or lack thereof

[BlueTravesty]

looking at this bottom right corner

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1sintherankcert-05.jpg

its a red and black belt representative of the grandmasters belt

just like here:

http://www.sinthe.com/images/gmbelt2.jpg

it is a logical conclusion but yes it is my opinion

The second one is red and black. The first one on the old-timey-looking document, was just red. No black.

[chiballsoffire]

"Zheng Shenguang" means the same thing as "sin kwang the" i do not know what system gmt used to spell his name as we know it but the chinese characters on his signature translate to the above as far as i have been able to tell from having a chinese friend look at it and read it to me.

Since apparently neither you nor I are Chinese linguists, I think you should avoid making statements about what means what. The bottom line is, like most things having to do with this system, you simply don’t know for sure. You’re trying to craft a response that will allow you to retain your faith in this man.


look closer and also refer to the "time line" i posted last week.

To be perfectly frank, your timeline is of no interest to me with regards to the information provided on the certificate. You do not appear to be a senior-ranking person in SD who might know, and I doubt you’ve ever had a substantive conversation with Sin The about his training history. The document states what it states….he started his studies at the age of 10, finished at 20. That doesn’t match with what SD now says, period. So, either the person who wrote this certificate (ostensibly Ie since his name appears on it) is telling the truth or Sin is telling the truth. Either way it doesn’t add up. Please look closer…..



this is true it appears. from what i understand ie chang ming made gmt the grandmaster of his system in 1968 about 4 years after he came to the usa.

In your post # 6896 (also containing the timeline) you wrote that all the evidence you could find showed that Ie named Sin the grandmaster, now you state that from what you understand Ie made Sin The grandmaster in 1968. So do you have any evidence (no hearsay please)? Lineages can be confusing, but this is something that supposedly happened 39 years ago….not 100, not 200….there ought to be something you or someone in SD could present.


please refer to my previous posts regarding the copyright/trademark of the system. it states the first use of the phrase "shaolin do" was used in 1978. i think this will explain why there is no reference to "shaolin do" on the cert.

I’m sorry, but this doesn’t explain anything. As has been pointed out on this forum and others that you post to, Sin tried to copyright/trademark Shaolin about 15 years ago, sue a former student, etc., and failed utterly to do so. But that is an entirely different subject. The question was, if he inherited Ie’s entire system, why did he not use the school’s name? The answer has nothing to do with trademarks or copyrights. Here’s the answer: He was never named to be Ie’s successor, he never inherited Ie’s school and he was never promoted by Ie or anyone else to grandmaster. Sin named his school Shaolin-do and made himself the grandmaster of that school. If Sin actually had a document signed by Ie making him the grandmaster, (and a few signed depositions/statements from senior students/instructors of the Indonesian school confirming that fact) it would be a fairly easy process to copyright the name, program, material, etc. But he doesn’t does he? So, 39 years later his convoluted set of half-truths, deceptions and lies have come full circle. The truth is always a much easier and much more consistent story to maintain.


i think understanding the context the word "shaolin" is used is important to understanding that. "founder" and "president" i think could imply "grandmaster" my grasp of chinese is limited though ..

What are you talking about here? Context? Oh, yeah that whole meaningless debate on this thread about current Western interpretations of what the word Shaolin implies or doesn’t imply. And again with the Chinese translator routine…. That debate is not germane to the issue of this certificate. If Ie was the grandmaster of the entire Shaolin system or even one of the affiliated temples, why isn’t that indicated on the document? Two separate translators at two separate times (probably unaffiliated with SD) used the word “founder.” So, did Ie “found” the entire Shaolin system? Or was he the “founder” of a Shaolin Temple? (This is at the heart of what Sin The claims to have inherited.) What did he “found?” The easy answer is that he is the founder of the “Central Plains” Shaolin Wushu school in Bandung, Indonesia.

Remember…..cyanide smells like toasted almonds……so give that next dose of Kool-Aid a little sniff.

[Yao Sing]

You guys are basing your entire argument on pics that could be Li Bao Shu or SKTJ all the pics could be the same guy but represented as the other. Even if the 2 or 3 pics are the same person it only proves the pics are the same person and does not prove that SKDJ did not exist .

I think it's a good indication the someone along the line lied. The picture is claimed to be Su Kong and NOT a representation of of his disease. If it isn't him but it's being passed off as him then either Sin The is lying or he was lied to about the picture.


on the right side it says five levels of black belt .....could it mean that he mastered all five levels of black belt and that is the reason why he is the 10th degree black belt?? If he graduated then he would be more than a 5th black , correct??

It's my understanding that 10the degree = head of system so anyone at the top of the system would automatically jump to 10th even if they were just 5th. No issue here.

chiballsoffire has a pretty good analysis but there seems to be a lack of concrete evidence for either position although you can't prove a negative. There's always the chance that Sin The was sold a bill of goods. The thing that seems odd to me is that so much digging and analyzing documents and photos has to occur to get any answers.

Bottom line it sounds like you either take Sin's word for it or you don't. Most of us don't because we see nothing indicating we should. It may be all circumstantial but it all points to a story much less grand than has been portrayed.

I think it's more likely that it's been embellished quite a bit, fairly typical of Chinese arts, more so from Indonesians from what I've heard.

[kwaichang]

You guys all remind me of a dog my brother owned named Sniper. He would chase cars and would never catch them. One day a car slowed down so he could catch it and the stupid dog just sat there and looked at the car. That is like you guys even if you could prove all your accusations it still means nothing. GM Sin The continues to teach out more than any of you guys ever hoped to learn in a life time with your current teachers. I for one have trained since 1981 in SD and started back in 1992 till now. SD IS all I ever hoped to find. If you guys are so heii bent on disproving the SD lineage then contact the man himself and "push" the issue. I dont think any of you will because as they say in the old west you guys are cowards. KC

[chiballsoffire]

You guys all remind me of a dog my brother owned named Sniper. He would chase cars and would never catch them. One day a car slowed down so he could catch it and the stupid dog just sat there and looked at the car. That is like you guys even if you could prove all your accusations it still means nothing. GM Sin The continues to teach out more than any of you guys ever hoped to learn in a life time with your current teachers. I for one have trained since 1981 in SD and started back in 1992 till now. SD IS all I ever hoped to find. If you guys are so heii bent on disproving the SD lineage then contact the man himself and "push" the issue. I dont think any of you will because as they say in the old west you guys are cowards. KC

What don't you go play in traffic with your dog old man. Typical hostile response from someone who can't come to grips with the fact that they've wrapped their pathetic lives around someone who is essentially a conman.

[DPL]

Since apparently neither you nor I are Chinese linguists, I think you should avoid making statements about what means what. The bottom line is, like most things having to do with this system, you simply don’t know for sure. You’re trying to craft a response that will allow you to retain your faith in this man.

Bruce gave you a valid response. He had someone who speaks Chinese look at it for him. If you don't read Aramaic, or even Greek, can you trust everything you read in the Bible? Are you sure the Brothers Karamazov was correctly translated? Maybe it's really about some circus performers in Moscow who have wild and crazy adventures with their dog. Don't bullsh!t around - there's enough of that on this thread already.




To be perfectly frank, your timeline is of no interest to me with regards to the information provided on the certificate. You do not appear to be a senior-ranking person in SD who might know, and I doubt you’ve ever had a substantive conversation with Sin The about his training history. The document states what it states….he started his studies at the age of 10, finished at 20. That doesn’t match with what SD now says, period. So, either the person who wrote this certificate (ostensibly Ie since his name appears on it) is telling the truth or Sin is telling the truth. Either way it doesn’t add up. Please look closer…..

So once again Bruce answers your question and you say 'I'M NOT GONNA LOOK AT YOUR ANSWER 'CAUSE YOU DON'T RANK HIGH ENOUGH'. Which, if folks had applied that logic to Einstein, would've slowed down the pace of development in physics quite a bit, don't you think?



In your post # 6896 (also containing the timeline) you wrote that all the evidence you could find showed that Ie named Sin the grandmaster, now you state that from what you understand Ie made Sin The grandmaster in 1968. So do you have any evidence (no hearsay please)? Lineages can be confusing, but this is something that supposedly happened 39 years ago….not 100, not 200….there ought to be something you or someone in SD could present.

Believe it or not, 'All the evidence I can find' and 'It's my understanding' actually mean pretty much exactly the same thing.





I’m sorry, but this doesn’t explain anything. As has been pointed out on this forum and others that you post to, Sin tried to copyright/trademark Shaolin about 15 years ago, sue a former student, etc., and failed utterly to do so. But that is an entirely different subject. The question was, if he inherited Ie’s entire system, why did he not use the school’s name? The answer has nothing to do with trademarks or copyrights. Here’s the answer: He was never named to be Ie’s successor, he never inherited Ie’s school and he was never promoted by Ie or anyone else to grandmaster. Sin named his school Shaolin-do and made himself the grandmaster of that school. If Sin actually had a document signed by Ie making him the grandmaster, (and a few signed depositions/statements from senior students/instructors of the Indonesian school confirming that fact) it would be a fairly easy process to copyright the name, program, material, etc. But he doesn’t does he? So, 39 years later his convoluted set of half-truths, deceptions and lies have come full circle. The truth is always a much easier and much more consistent story to maintain.

Why would he be provided Ie's notes and treated as an honored colleague by Ie's contemporaries? Who's to say he DOESN'T have something signed by Ie that names him grandmaster? Do you know he doesn't have that document? Have you been rummaging through his stuff? Was that you trying on his daughter's underwear and getting chased by the cops across town?

Do you honestly think he cares what you, bold and daring Internet warrior though you are, think about him?




What are you talking about here? Context? Oh, yeah that whole meaningless debate on this thread about current Western interpretations of what the word Shaolin implies or doesn’t imply. And again with the Chinese translator routine…. That debate is not germane to the issue of this certificate. If Ie was the grandmaster of the entire Shaolin system or even one of the affiliated temples, why isn’t that indicated on the document? Two separate translators at two separate times (probably unaffiliated with SD) used the word “founder.” So, did Ie “found” the entire Shaolin system? Or was he the “founder” of a Shaolin Temple? (This is at the heart of what Sin The claims to have inherited.) What did he “found?” The easy answer is that he is the founder of the “Central Plains” Shaolin Wushu school in Bandung, Indonesia.


This is almost too bizarre a response to even address. 'Founder' and 'grandmaster' are also non-exclusive terms, as are 'president', 'CEO', 'ditch-digger' and 'dude'. You can actually be all of these at the same time! Isn't that cool!

Much like you can be a doofus and an Internet warrior at the same time. But you should know that already.



Remember…..cyanide smells like toasted almonds……so give that next dose of Kool-Aid a little sniff.

Iron stomach training. Lots of peppers and hot sauce. Don't need to worry about it.

It would help you sound more intelligent if you actually parsed through the logic behind your arguments before posting them.

Cheers!

[kwaichang]

Chiballsoffire wasnt it you who were going to a seminar at Rusty Grays in Nashville ? That really takes away from your credibility if you have any. Dont talk to me about Conmen if you go there for lessons. You want the truth then you ask him we apparantly dont have the answers you seek. KC:cool: BTW if you are in Nashville I will be glad to work out with you if you promise to be gentle haha

[Judge Pen]

This is almost too bizarre a response to even address. 'Founder' and 'grandmaster' are also non-exclusive terms, as are 'president', 'CEO', 'ditch-digger' and 'dude'. You can actually be all of these at the same time! Isn't that cool!


:D LOL. Thanks for the morning chuckle.

I don't get chiballs of fire. He must be an alias for someone else because why would a "newbie" create an account indicating that they've trained hung gar for 8 years and not talk about anything but what a fraud SD is? It's not like there isn't anyone else in the martial world championing that cause. I think I would give more consideration to his posts and attempt to carry on an intelligent conversation with him if 1) his first posts were personal and attacking and 2) if he actually wanted to talk about a number of other things and his distaste for SD. Look at Yao Sing, MK, greedcloud, heck even the artist formerly known as Fu Pow. They all contribute to many discussions including this one. Many of them share chiballs' opinions, but its not their only point they want to make. That, at least in my mind, gives more credibility to their statements even if I disagree.

[Judge Pen]

Chiballsoffire wasnt it you who were going to a seminar at Rusty Grays in Nashville ? That really takes away from your credibility if you have any. Dont talk to me about Conmen if you go there for lessons. You want the truth then you ask him we apparantly dont have the answers you seek. KC:cool: BTW if you are in Nashville I will be glad to work out with you if you promise to be gentle haha

Do you mean Grandmaster Gray has a first name? I was speaking to a student in Nashville who meant Grandmaster Gray and that was how he introduced himself to someone that he never met. That's a bit offputting. Say what you what about GM The', he's as humble and down to earth in person as anyone I've met.

[MasterKiller]

MK actually doesn't care that much about this issue. But it's the most active thread on this board and keeps him amused at work.

[Judge Pen]

This thread keeps me amused at work to, but your contribution to it is beneficial and welcome even if I don't agree with you.

[sean_stonehart]

This thread keeps me amused at work to, but your contribution to it is beneficial and welcome even if I don't agree with you.

But you didn't speak of yourself in the cool 3rd person like MK did there. That was amusing in itself... :p;)

[Yao Sing]

Who's to say he DOESN'T have something signed by Ie that names him grandmaster? Do you know he doesn't have that document?

I'm sure you don't see how ridiculous this sounds or you wouldn't say it but why would he offer up a lesser document to back up his claim?

I can claim Bruce Lee named me the GM of JKD before he died and you can't prove I don't have the document proving it can you? It could be hidden somewhere in my closet right?


MK actually doesn't care that much about this issue. But it's the most active thread on this board and keeps him amused at work.

Pretty much same here but I do think some of the BS in CMA needs to do cleaned up and this thread seems to be actively attempting to do so as ar as SD goes. Plus I think it would really shake things up if there's some provable truth behind some of these claims.

So I agitate sometimes for 2 reasons - get the truth out and to get this thread to 500 pages, or infinity and beyond!

[Judge Pen]

But you didn't speak of yourself in the cool 3rd person like MK did there. That was amusing in itself... :p;)

I guess MK's cooler then me. :mad:

[Judge Pen]

I'm sure you don't see how ridiculous this sounds or you wouldn't say it but why would he offer up a lesser document to back up his claim?

I can claim Bruce Lee named me the GM of JKD before he died and you can't prove I don't have the document proving it can you? It could be hidden somewhere in my closet right?



Pretty much same here but I do think some of the BS in CMA needs to do cleaned up and this thread seems to be actively attempting to do so as ar as SD goes. Plus I think it would really shake things up if there's some provable truth behind some of these claims.

So I agitate sometimes for 2 reasons - get the truth out and to get this thread to 500 pages, or infinity and beyond!


As I've said, I've seen a transcription of a letter reportedly from Master Ie to GM The' which would validate the promotion to 10th if true. Interestingly, this letter is not validated by Master The' or anyone in his camp. It references Master Ie's travels, GM The's promotion, and the rumored familial relationship between Master Ie and the The brothers (which Master Hiang advoctes and Master The' denies). If the contents of the letter are true, then it would serve as some validation of the promotion. I have doubts because the origin of the letter (it was provided, to my knowledge, by one of Hiang's students and reposted here ages ago), but it does reference three "treasures" that Master Ie gave to Master The': One being Master Ie's pipe, which I've seen with my own eyes.

It may be that the letter is fake. It may be that it is true. At this point its all interesting supposition since I've never seen the actual letter, had it idenpendantly translated etc.

[mkriii]

This thread keeps getting funnier each day. Well I have a letter from Dr Massaki Hatsumi that says that I'm going to be the 35th generation Gradmaster of his lineage of Ninjutsu. I even have a personal shuriken of his to prove that this is an authentic letter that only he wrote.

[mkriii]

Well first off I do interact and post with other people that do my style. My style is Sil Lum Kung Fu which is the Cantonese pronounciation of Shaolin. We use the term Sil Lum instead of Shaolin because we do not wish to be associated with a bogus art such as Shaolin Do Karate, espacially since we are in the same town as "grandmaster" Sin The'. Being associated with that organization is bad for business.

[Judge Pen]

Well first off I do interact and post with other people that do my style. My style is Sil Lum Kung Fu which is the Cantonese pronounciation of Shaolin. We use the term Sil Lum instead of Shaolin because we do not wish to be associated with a bogus art such as Shaolin Do Karate, espacially since we are in the same town as "grandmaster" Sin The'. Being associated with that organization is bad for business.

And trying to discredit SD is probably good for your business, no?

[sean_stonehart]

Well first off I do interact and post with other people that do my style. My style is Sil Lum Kung Fu which is the Cantonese pronounciation of Shaolin. We use the term Sil Lum instead of Shaolin because we do not wish to be associated with a bogus art such as Shaolin Do Karate, espacially since we are in the same town as "grandmaster" Sin The'. Being associated with that organization is bad for business.

An example of interaction... From the Dragon's List (http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/other/20074-training-exercises.html)


from the dragon's list...
------------------
training exercises
I was wanting to get some suggestions from people on some traditional training/conditioning exercises like what you would see in the old kung fu movies. I plan on using some of these with my students so that they don't get bored with the same ole' exercised. I'm looking for conditioning and training exercises. For example, I was planning on the conditioning exercise where the student gets in a push up position and he holds that while an inscent stick is burning under his chest (if he drops it would burn him). Another one was doing push ups on the back of thier wrists. If anyone knows of any off the wall stuff like this please post it. Thanks.
__________________
Mark Reed

Pain is temporary pride is forever.


Welcome to the fire... it was safer in the frying pan...

[mkriii]

I don't have to discredit SD, it does that all on its own. I mean come on....an art using japanese uniforms and japanese terms, claiming to teach a chinese art by a man from indonesia. It doesn't take a mental heavyweight to figure this one out. Besides I have a brown belt from Sin The'. I got it back in the early 80's. I know what he teaches. I think that gives me the right to say what I think and know to be true about SD.

[mkriii]

I know that when I studied under him you could not make ANY contact when sparring. He taught Japanese weapons such as the nunchucks and sai. Whats up with that? We have a saying....Sin us the money and you can Hiang your diploma on the wall. Funny huh?

[Judge Pen]

I hear a very large axe being grinded.

Tell me, mkriii, do you know Frank Sexton?

Or can you tell me about the deadly vibrating palm technique!

[mkriii]

why do you ask? What does Frank Sexton have to do with this discussion? Or vibrating palms? Frank Sexton is with Ng family not Shaolin Do.

[Judge Pen]

I know that when I studied under him you could not make ANY contact when sparring. He taught Japanese weapons such as the nunchucks and sai. Whats up with that? We have a saying....Sin us the money and you can Hiang your diploma on the wall. Funny huh?

When did you say you trained with Master Sin and Master Hiang? Well given that they split in 83 or so, that would have made you 10 years old! Isn't your birthday July 17, 1973? I don't let 10 year olds make contact either!

[Judge Pen]

why do you ask? What does Frank Sexton have to do with this discussion? Or vibrating palms? Frank Sexton is with Ng family not Shaolin Do.

Because Mr. Sexton came on this forum a couple of years ago, showed his arse and made an idiot of himself and disrespected his teacher in the process. That's the typical response we're used to.

[mkriii]

I studied at the great Sin The' Sport Center on Richmond Road back probably in 1983 or 84 somewhere around then. I was about 11 or 12 years old. If you don't let children that are ten years old make contact then thats pathetic. But anyways, I had grown adults in class with me at the Sport Center and they couldn't make contact either. My Sifu (or as SD calls them sensei since they use Japanese terms) lets children make light contact and we have NEVER had a problem. Yes I know Sifu Frank Sexton but he is not my Sifu. My teacher is Master John Dufresne. You know the one that was attacked by your fellow SD brothers at a karate tournament and Dufresne kicked all of their rear ends.

[bodhi warrior]

sin and hiang were still together in '86. Hiang did my blackbelt test at the sin the' sportscenter.
What is the name of the sil lum school in lexington?

[Judge Pen]

I studied at the great Sin The' Sport Center on Richmond Road back probably in 1983 or 84 somewhere around then. I was about 11 or 12 years old. If you don't let children that are ten years old make contact then thats pathetic. But anyways, I had grown adults in class with me at the Sport Center and they couldn't make contact either. My Sifu (or as SD calls them sensei since they use Japanese terms) lets children make light contact and we have NEVER had a problem. Yes I know Sifu Frank Sexton but he is not my Sifu. My teacher is Master John Dufresne. You know the one that was attacked by your fellow SD brothers at a karate tournament and Dufresne kicked all of their rear ends.

I've personally corresponded with John Dufresne. He personally apologized to me for Mr. Sexton's behavior. Do yourself a favor, don't lose face and make him apologize for yours too.

[mkriii]

I thought they were together longer than 1983. I could have sworn I was about 12 when I was at the Sin The' Sport Center. I got to Brown belt under Sin The'.

[Judge Pen]

I thought they were together longer than 1983. I could have sworn I was about 12 when I was at the Sin The' Sport Center. I got to Brown belt under Sin The'.

According to bodhi warrior they were together in 1986. All I knew was that it was in the early to mid 80s. My point was, you were a child. Given the venom of your posts, maybe you still are.

[mkriii]

I'm not saying anything that isn't true. What have I said that wasn't true? So now you have to go bring John Dufresne into it and Frank Sexton and others? This conversation should be between the two of us, no one else. I studied under Sin The' and I know what it is all about. I got to brown belt in about 1 year. Thats crazy!!!! Under Sifu Dufresne it took me 2 years to get to brown and another year to get to my black sash (or belts as you all in SD use).

[Judge Pen]

I'm not saying anything that isn't true. What have I said that wasn't true? So now you have to go bring John Dufresne into it and Frank Sexton and others? This conversation should be between the two of us, no one else. I studied under Sin The' and I know what it is all about. I got to brown belt in about 1 year. Thats crazy!!!! Under Sifu Dufresne it took me 2 years to get to brown and another year to get to my black sash (or belts as you all in SD use).

Reread the posts. I never mentioned John Dufresne until you did. I did metion Frank Sexton, because he came on here a few years ago acting exactly the same as you are now.

The things about the contact and the intensity of Master Hiang's classes is in direct conflict with everything that I've heard from the old timers (and even those who no longer study SD) The thing is your "experience" is different than everyone else's. Everything I've ever heard about Master Hiang is that his classes were rough and full of contact. You come in and say something different, but you neglected to tell us that you were pre-teen at the time......ok and you are in a style now that has a traditionally rivalry with sd.....ok and your posts are attacking in tone....ok That's three reasons to suspect your credibility.

It's ok to admit that you have a bias. I have a bias for SD. I try to be more objective with my thinking and less attacking in my posts (recent posts aside, you got under my skin I confess), but that's just me.

If you come to a site and speak of your style and your teachers, you bring them into the conversation. What you do represents them too. Maybe you should have thought of that.

[mkriii]

I was just merely saying that Frank Sexton was not my teacher because I thought you might assume he was and I wanted to clear that up and let you know that Dufresne was. I wasn't intentionaly bringing my teacher into this. As for John Dufresne appologizing for Frank Sexton I don't believe that. Why would he appologize for someone that is not his student. Sexton is Grandmaster John Wing Loc Ng's student, not John Dufresne's. Now back on topic, maybe Hiang The' changed his teaching methods after I quit but I assure you that NONE of the people in my class were allowed to make contact when sparring. I had both young and old in my class. Me and my dad started class together along with some other father/sons that were in the class. My dad eventually quit but I continued up till brown belt. I was 13 when I got my brown belt and we still could not make contact. Since you seem to know alot about SD and Sin The', why does Sin The discourage any of his students from competing at any tournaments? And don't give me the..... It's to deadly for tourtnament lecture. Heard that one to many times. The only tournament he allows students to participate in is if it's his tournament. Could this be because he wants all their money for himself and not let them give it to another tournament promoter or could it be he doesn't want them to see how bad they really are? Just curious.

[mkriii]

Why did I get under your skin if you have a bias towards SD? Why do you take up for them if you don't even do Shaolin Do Karate? Makes no sense.

[Baqualin]

I was just merely saying that Frank Sexton was not my teacher because I thought you might assume he was and I wanted to clear that up and let you know that Dufresne was. I wasn't intentionaly bringing my teacher into this. As for John Dufresne appologizing for Frank Sexton I don't believe that. Why would he appologize for someone that is not his student. Sexton is Grandmaster John Wing Loc Ng's student, not John Dufresne's. Now back on topic, maybe Hiang The' changed his teaching methods after I quit but I assure you that NONE of the people in my class were allowed to make contact when sparring. I had both young and old in my class. Me and my dad started class together along with some other father/sons that were in the class. My dad eventually quit but I continued up till brown belt. I was 13 when I got my brown belt and we still could not make contact. Since you seem to know alot about SD and Sin The', why does Sin The discourage any of his students from competing at any tournaments? And don't give me the..... It's to deadly for tourtnament lecture. Heard that one to many times. The only tournament he allows students to participate in is if it's his tournament. Could this be because he wants all their money for himself and not let them give it to another tournament promoter or could it be he doesn't want them to see how bad they really are? Just curious.

OK Mkriii,
I'm here in Lex.....been here since 1974....started with GMS & M. Hiang in 1974 and I'm still with GMS & I'm one of the internal instructors at the Lex. school....always made contact except to face & joints......could compete in any tourney I wanted to and still can.....a lot of SD students do......LIKE JP for one.......at 12 or 13 you were a child & still seem to be, for you have no idea what your talking about:D
BQ

[Judge Pen]

I was just merely saying that Frank Sexton was not my teacher because I thought you might assume he was and I wanted to clear that up and let you know that Dufresne was. I wasn't intentionaly bringing my teacher into this. As for John Dufresne appologizing for Frank Sexton I don't believe that. Why would he appologize for someone that is not his student. Sexton is Grandmaster John Wing Loc Ng's student, not John Dufresne's. Now back on topic, maybe Hiang The' changed his teaching methods after I quit but I assure you that NONE of the people in my class were allowed to make contact when sparring. I had both young and old in my class. Me and my dad started class together along with some other father/sons that were in the class. My dad eventually quit but I continued up till brown belt. I was 13 when I got my brown belt and we still could not make contact. Since you seem to know alot about SD and Sin The', why does Sin The discourage any of his students from competing at any tournaments? And don't give me the..... It's to deadly for tourtnament lecture. Heard that one to many times. The only tournament he allows students to participate in is if it's his tournament. Could this be because he wants all their money for himself and not let them give it to another tournament promoter or could it be he doesn't want them to see how bad they really are? Just curious.


I'm not lying to you. If you don't believe me, speak to your teacher.

Thank you for conceading that there is a lot about SD that you don't know. I don't know why or how your calsses were run, but its certainly not my experience or many of the old timeres that I know and respect.

As for tournaments, I compete in open tournaments from time to time. I do it with my teachers knowledge and approval. There is the quote that is, paraphrasing "if your primary intent is tournaments, then go elsewhere" and that does touch on safety etc. I'm sure that many techniques in TCMA can translate to the ring effectively, but they are modified or muted by rules or protective equipment. That's the way it should be and not unique to just SD. Example, could you use Ng's famed vibrating palm technique safely in a tournament?

Your posts show that you know little about SD. I'll be glad to answer your questions if we can have an adult conversation about these points.

[mkriii]

OK Baqualin...I don't know what I'm talking about? If thats not the pot calling the kettle black...LMAO. I was judging at Ken Eubank's Bluegrass National Karate Tournament and saw this little blonde hair kid (about 15 or 16 yrs old) coming to the ring I was judging at. He was carrying a homemade Quan Do made with a cardboard blade on top of a pole. To top it all off he was wearing a Shaolin Do Karate uniform. It was so funny that it was sad. Poor kid, he tried his best though despite the make shift Quan Do.

[Judge Pen]

OK Baqualin...I don't know what I'm talking about? If thats not the pot calling the kettle black...LMAO. I was judging at Ken Eubank's Bluegrass National Karate Tournament and saw this little blonde hair kid (about 15 or 16 yrs old) coming to the ring I was judging at. He was carrying a homemade Quan Do made with a cardboard blade on top of a pole. To top it all off he was wearing a Shaolin Do Karate uniform. It was so funny that it was sad. Poor kid, he tried his best though despite the make shift Quan Do.

So a 15 year old kid couldn't afford a kwan do and thought it was funny and sad? :rolleyes: Who are you to pass judgment like that? That's why you get under my skin--I can take all the detractors that make valid points and discuss things intelligently and with respect and class, but I don't suffer fools.

[mkriii]

If Master Dufresne appologized for Frank's comments it was only to be polite not because it was his student.

[Judge Pen]

If Master Dufresne appologized for Frank's comments it was only to be polite not because it was his student.

He sought me out and sent a message to my private e-mail. It was more than being polite, don't you think? I don't see eye to eye with J. Dufresene on everything, but he has always treated me with respect and class, so I can respect that about him (others may have a different opinion, but thats been my personal experience). Given that, you have a lot still to learn from your teacher.

[mkriii]

You wouldn't let him use a Quan Do from your school? My teacher would let me borrow any weapon I wanted to if I was going to compete. He let any of his students use the schools weapons but I guess Grandmaster Sin would rather the student buy thier own weapon (from him of course). And yes it was sad and funny at the same time.

[Judge Pen]

You wouldn't let him use a Quan Do from your school? My teacher would let me borrow any weapon I wanted to if I was going to compete. He let any of his students use the schools weapons but I guess Grandmaster Sin would rather the student buy thier own weapon (from him of course). And yes it was sad and funny at the same time.

There's no requirement that I buy weapons from Master Sin or my teachers. I buy them where I want to. And I'm sure he could have borrowed one. Maybe the kid made it himself and was proud of that. For you to point to something as asinine as this as further support of your opinion of SD and its multiple faults shows your character, not anyone in SD.

[mkriii]

You know what, last time I checked the name of this thread it was "Is Shaolin Do real?" It was my impression that the person who started this thread wanted information and input on this style of martial art. That is what I have done. I have given him my opinion based on what I have seen and done (21 years ago) in Shaolin Do Karate. He may do what he wishes with what I have said. If he wants to ignore it then thats fine.

[Judge Pen]

You know what, last time I checked the name of this thread it was "Is Shaolin Do real?" It was my impression that the person who started this thread wanted information and input on this style of martial art. That is what I have done. I have given him my opinion based on what I have seen and done (21 years ago) in Shaolin Do Karate. He may do what he wishes with what I have said. If he wants to ignore it then thats fine.


Appropriately, this thread was started by a troll. This first post of this thread was his only post. I'm not faulting you for posting your experiences--I welcome them--but the manner of your posts are insulting and full of venom and ignorance. That's what offends me.

But, then again, its a public internet forum. It attracts all kinds so I shouldn't be surprised.

[mkriii]

I'm not the only one who thinks this. Every forum that I have been to has made SD the joke of the forum. Why are you singling me out? Why not the 100's of others on this forum or the Dragon's List that has made similiar comments? Or is it because I'm from the Ng family of kung fu or from Four Seasons Kung Fu & Wu Shu Academy? So I notice you never mentioned the attack on Master Dufresne at Sin The's tournament back in the 80's. Eight or nine SD students tried to beat him and his partner up but failed. It was all set up and orchastrated by Hwiang The'. Did anyone ever appologize for that incident, not to my knowledge.

[Baqualin]

OK Baqualin...I don't know what I'm talking about? If thats not the pot calling the kettle black...LMAO.

That statement makes absolutely no since at all:eek:


I was judging at Ken Eubank's Bluegrass National Karate Tournament and saw this little blonde hair kid (about 15 or 16 yrs old) coming to the ring I was judging at. He was carrying a homemade Quan Do made with a cardboard blade on top of a pole. To top it all off he was wearing a Shaolin Do Karate uniform. It was so funny that it was sad. Poor kid, he tried his best though despite the make shift Quan Do.

I thought we couldn't compete in outside tourneys:confused:

[mkriii]

If Sin The is truely the Grandmaster of Shaolin Kung Fu then why is he not in China living in one of the Shaolin Temples? Oh no you can compete at open tournament but I heard GM Sin frowns apon it. Thats prob. why he had his makeshift Quan Do. As for the old saying about the pot calling the kettle black, you never heard that one before?

[Baqualin]

I'm not the only one who thinks this. Every forum that I have been to has made SD the joke of the forum. Why are you singling me out? Why not the 100's of others on this forum or the Dragon's List that has made similiar comments? Or is it because I'm from the Ng family of kung fu or from Four Seasons Kung Fu & Wu Shu Academy? So I notice you never mentioned the attack on Master Dufresne at Sin The's tournament back in the 80's. Eight or nine SD students tried to beat him and his partner up but failed. It was all set up and orchastrated by Hwiang The'. Did anyone ever appologize for that incident, not to my knowledge.

That's because we don't come on here and bash anybody...your the one draging this sh!t up not us....this has nothing to do with this thread or GMS or SD....I could say alot but I refuse to be CHILDISH like you:)
BQ

[Judge Pen]

I'm not the only one who thinks this. Every forum that I have been to has made SD the joke of the forum. Why are you singling me out? Why not the 100's of others on this forum or the Dragon's List that has made similiar comments? Or is it because I'm from the Ng family of kung fu or from Four Seasons Kung Fu & Wu Shu Academy? So I notice you never mentioned the attack on Master Dufresne at Sin The's tournament back in the 80's. Eight or nine SD students tried to beat him and his partner up but failed. It was all set up and orchastrated by Hwiang The'. Did anyone ever appologize for that incident, not to my knowledge.

I'm singling you out for your attitude. I've spoken with several people who may share your opinion on many of these points. Heck, I'm friends with some of them. I've crossed hands with others. Its all respectful and adult debate. Its the hotheads that spout off that get me ticked.

I have nothing agasint the Ng family. I trained with a guy who learned from Ng and he even taught me some of their forms ages ago. Its pretty good stuff. I know there was a rivalry that culminated in the incident with Dufresne, but to me that is ancient history. I wasn't there. Neither was Master Sin. I don't know what happened, but in all fairness neither do you. You know what J. Dufresne told you. I know what I've been told by some eye-witnesses. I know what J. Dufresne said about the incident, but I know that despite all of that, I don't know what really happened. I know there is a difference of opinion that will never be sorted out. I also know enough not to go around digging up the bones of the past, like this incident, as evidence of the current characther of an art that is comprised mainly of people who were not in control or even around with this happened.

As for other forums, I don't post on DL and I don't have the time to invest in another forum. I never put any stock in what others think. I'd be glad to sit down and have a beer or sweat with them in the kwoon if they want to know about my experiences. That's all I can control. If others think the same, then they are entitled to their opinion. Doesn't make it any more or less accurate, does it?

[Baqualin]

If Sin The is truely the Grandmaster of Shaolin Kung Fu then why is he not in China living in one of the Shaolin Temples?
:rolleyes:

Oh no you can compete at open tournament but I heard GM Sin frowns apon it.
:rolleyes:
Thats prob. why he had his makeshift Quan Do.
:rolleyes:
As for the old saying about the pot calling the kettle black, you never heard that one before?

Only when it's used properly and you didn't:)

[mkriii]

I wan't bashing SD until you lit in on me for speaking my oppinion on SD. I brought up the "did anyone appolagize about the attack on Dufresne" because you brought it up and said Dufresne appolagized about Frank Sextons comment. Your the one that brought up the past not me when you brought Frank Sexton into the conversation, did you not?

[Judge Pen]

If Sin The is truely the Grandmaster of Shaolin Kung Fu then why is he not in China living in one of the Shaolin Temples? Oh no you can compete at open tournament but I heard GM Sin frowns apon it. Thats prob. why he had his makeshift Quan Do. As for the old saying about the pot calling the kettle black, you never heard that one before?

He doesn't frown as far as I know. And you're guessing a lot about one kid with a home-made Kwan dao. My first kwan dao was homemade also. It's still my favorite.

You really should stop speaking about things that you don't know about.

As far as GMS not living in China in the temple all I can say is "really?" You think that makes a difference? Come on, you do Silum which is the cantonese pronouciation, right? Why isn't your teacher living in a temple too? What does that prove? The temples there now have been rebuilt and repopulated. Much of what was shaolin or silum left and has spread, but that doesn't make it any less shaolin (silum).

[Baqualin]

It was all set up and orchastrated by Hwiang The'. Did anyone ever appologize for that incident, not to my knowledge.[/QUOTE]

You might find a little fuel for the split (between MH & GMS)here...... you ask about in a earlier post;)....mister kettle

[Baqualin]

I wan't bashing SD until you lit in on me for speaking my oppinion on SD. I brought up the "did anyone appolagize about the attack on Dufresne" because you brought it up and said Dufresne appolagized about Frank Sextons comment. Your the one that brought up the past not me when you brought Frank Sexton into the conversation, did you not?

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused:
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

Well, I know the senior members of Shaolin-Do here are not impressed with MRKIII's comments, but I would urge them to truly listen to what he's saying.

I find his posts full of pertinent, useful, and well-thought-out information. His words have struck me to the very core, and my core shakes as if the leviathans of the deep were turning in the slime of the prime.

Oh......****.....that ain't the leviathans of the deep. I just had Taco Bell.

Excuse me.

[Judge Pen]

I wan't bashing SD until you lit in on me for speaking my oppinion on SD. I brought up the "did anyone appolagize about the attack on Dufresne" because you brought it up and said Dufresne appolagized about Frank Sextons comment. Your the one that brought up the past not me when you brought Frank Sexton into the conversation, did you not?


Yes I did. I left your teacher out of it, because I respected him for his treatment of me in the past. But let's be fair here, your first post was this
So GM Sin The' claims he is the grandmaster? Well it's kind of funny how he can go from an 8th degree BB to a 10th degree BB in a matter of a few months. He leaves the country and comes back 2 degrees higher. I studied under Grandmaster Sin back in the early 80's and came to my senses and saught out some real martial art training. I've hear numerous stories of how he one some tournament and decided after that that he was good enough to be a 10th degree BB some he self promoted himself.

Attacking GMS' claim of being the grandmaster of his own system not from an outsider's position, like the conversations here with Yao Sing, but as if you had inside knowledge. You don't, but you acted like you did. Next:


I know that my teacher was at a tournament where Sin The' was twirling a staff that was on fire and he spun it so fast that the flames went out. After doing this he (sin the') said he was so good that he should be a 10th degree black belt. We will never know the truth because the former GM and Hairy Man are both dead. It is sad that there are so many people that are brain washed by all this BS. I know it's BS because I was a student of GM Sin's back at the Sin The' Sports Center on Richmond Rd. back in the early 80's (1982 I think).

You weren't at the tournament, so your taking someone else's word, but then you jump right in an claim that we are all brainwashed by bs. Well that's a spurrious comment and one that is in contradiction with many here who openly and thoughfully discuss the lineage and history issues. Trust me, I practice this art with free will and open eyes. Then, after I pointed out you seemed to have an ax to grind, your tone changed for a while. But eventually you went back to to talking about how funny things were and how silly your training was (when you were a kid).

Maybe I've been to harsh on you. Maybe its because my legs are so sore that I can barely walk this morning after leaving everything I had on the mat yesterday for my test that I'm grumpier and taking things a bit to personally. But we certainly got off on the wrong foot here. I think you should adopt the attitude of one of your previous posts:
I think that everyone should just let Sin The' be. If you choose to believe he is the GM and believe his lineage story then believe it, if you don't believe then so be it. debating this issue will not solve a thing. GM Sin The' will continue to teach and oversee 100's of Shaolin Do schools. I personally don't believe all he claims to know or even believe he deserves his 10th degree black belt or title of Grandmaster. I think that is something that you have to earn and I don't believe he earned it. I think he promoted himself. Having said that, nothing has changed. So as i asked before, is anything going to change with this debate. I doubt it.

If that's how you belienve, then great. Peace to you.

[Citong Shifu]

Yes I did. I left your teacher out of it, because I respected him for his treatment of me in the past. But let's be fair here, your first post was this

Attacking GMS' claim of being the grandmaster of his own system not from an outsider's position, like the conversations here with Yao Sing, but as if you had inside knowledge. You don't, but you acted like you did. Next:



You weren't at the tournament, so your taking someone else's word, but then you jump right in an claim that we are all brainwashed by bs. Well that's a spurrious comment and one that is in contradiction with many here who openly and thoughfully discuss the lineage and history issues. Trust me, I practice this art with free will and open eyes. Then, after I pointed out you seemed to have an ax to grind, your tone changed for a while. But eventually you went back to to talking about how funny things were and how silly your training was (when you were a kid).

Maybe I've been to harsh on you. Maybe its because my legs are so sore that I can barely walk this morning after leaving everything I had on the mat yesterday for my test that I'm grumpier and taking things a bit to personally. But we certainly got off on the wrong foot here. I think you should adopt the attitude of one of your previous posts:

If that's how you belienve, then great. Peace to you.

Hey JP, I can't believe your giving this guy so much of your attention, lol... I don't know this guy and have nothing against him or his view/s, but, whatch ya do'n, lol...

On a serious note, SD is SD, possibly more, possibly less who knows? The point I'm making is, lets get onto some actual SD coversation/s that varify, disprove, or neither. Anything but this bullsh#t...

Anyway, I still haven't been able to really trace back any of the ST's lineage names to current SD or kungfu school affiliates in indonesia or China. At this point, I dont think I really care anymore. I was just curious about SD lineage and authenticity not spending hours researching SD. Those hours I need for my own personal training, know what I mean? Anywho, still interesting, can't wait to meet up with some of you guys....

[tattooedmonk]

I ordered this book when the post was put up about it. I just got notice that my account was refunded with no explanation. It was supposed to be here at the latest last friday . What BS.

[DPL]

I'm sure you don't see how ridiculous this sounds or you wouldn't say it...


You guys are as dependable as gas the day after taco night. So it's okay for YOU YOURSELF to say this, just, like, one freaking day ago:


...there seems to be a lack of concrete evidence for either position...

... but it's not okay for me to say essentially exactly the same thing only from the SD perspective? OH WAIT, it's because I said it from the SD perspective.

Now go ahead, write a long treatise on how the large gaping hole of consistency in your approach is actually justified because you didn't really mean it the way you wrote it.

By the way, JP - congrats.

[bodhi warrior]

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused:
BQ


Hey JP, I can't believe your giving this guy so much of your attention, lol... I don't know this guy and have nothing against him or his view/s, but, whatch ya do'n, lol...

On a serious note, SD is SD, possibly more, possibly less who knows? The point I'm making is, lets get onto some actual SD coversation/s that varify, disprove, or neither. Anything but this bullsh#t...

Anyway, I still haven't been able to really trace back any of the ST's lineage names to current SD or kungfu school affiliates in indonesia or China. At this point, I dont think I really care anymore. I was just curious about SD lineage and authenticity not spending hours researching SD. Those hours I need for my own personal training, know what I mean? Anywho, still interesting, can't wait to meet up with some of you hguys....

I think hiang's website lists some names he studied with.

[tattooedmonk]

...is up and running. I am glad to here that SML is doing well.

[tattooedmonk]

...who is the new douche bag MRKIII??

[mkriii]

Whatever man. We all know what SD is all about. End of subject. That all I'm going to say about it.

[kungfujunky]

Whatever man. We all know what SD is all about. End of subject. That all I'm going to say about it.



phew glad thats over

hahaha

[bodhi warrior]

just got through checking out the new website and noticed a change in the story of gm Ie. I have two books that state gm Ie was taking a short cut when confronted by the soldiers he killed. On the new website it says his wife was being attacked by the soldier. Anyone have any info on this?

[sean_stonehart]

just got through checking out the new website and noticed a change in the story of gm Ie. I have two books that state gm Ie was taking a short cut when confronted by the soldiers he killed. On the new website it says his wife was being attacked by the soldier. Anyone have any info on this?


Ooops... conflicting stories... need clarification on isle 3.

[Lamassu]

Ooops... conflicting stories... need clarification on isle 3.

*sigh* It's a thankless job. :(

[bodhi warrior]

just got through checking out the new website and noticed a change in the story of gm Ie. I have two books that state gm Ie was taking a short cut when confronted by the soldiers he killed. On the new website it says his wife was being attacked by the soldier. Anyone have any info on this?

[mkriii]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-2096.html

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1999.html

Check this out. More from the archives about this topic. Just a few of the many I found.

[kungfujunky]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-2096.html

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1999.html

Check this out. More from the archives about this topic. Just a few of the many I found.



i thought you were done?

man there went my happy mood!

[Baqualin]

Mak Reed III

It is better to sit in silence and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:eek::):D;):cool::p
BQ

[Judge Pen]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-2096.html

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1999.html

Check this out. More from the archives about this topic. Just a few of the many I found.

You mean they were arguing the same points back in 1999 and no one has proved anything yet? Man, what a merry-go-round this is!

[kungfujunky]

hey jp check this out!

http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/material_list_cubine.html

all the way at the bottom of his material list (3rd from the bottom)

hehe

[tattooedmonk]

hey jp check this out!

http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/material_list_cubine.html

all the way at the bottom of his material list (3rd from the bottom)

heheyeah, the judges pen!!:D:):p

[tattooedmonk]

Whatever man. We all know what SD is all about. End of subject. That all I'm going to say about it.So what is it ALL about, Einstein??

[tattooedmonk]

Mak Reed III

It is better to sit in silence and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:eek::):D;):cool::p
BQ.....LMAO:D

[tattooedmonk]

just got through checking out the new website and noticed a change in the story of gm Ie. I have two books that state gm Ie was taking a short cut when confronted by the soldiers he killed. On the new website it says his wife was being attacked by the soldier. Anyone have any info on this?
Maybe these are just two parts of the same story. This might be giving a little more insight as to why he was set off and did what he did.

I know if someone started messing with my wife they would not stand a chance.:D:cool:

[Mei Hua]

Beware the true power of Shaolin Do black belts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnpaW5hXWDg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edragonslist%2Ecom%2Fdiscus sion%2Fanimal%2Dforms%2Dstyles%2F19987%2Dwanted%2D info%2Dshaolin%2Ddo%2Dkarate%2D5%2Ehtml) :eek:

[kungfujunky]

ive seen that vid.....the forms are almost technically correct but the spirit of the tiger is lacking imo

also they dont look like beginners but first blacks from what i can see.

interesting

[tattooedmonk]

ive seen that vid.....the forms are almost technically correct but the spirit of the tiger is lacking imo

also they dont look like beginners but first blacks from what i can see.

interestingBlack belt is just the beginning. And yes they do look like beginners.

[brucereiter]

ive seen that vid.....the forms are almost technically correct but the spirit of the tiger is lacking imo

also they dont look like beginners but first blacks from what i can see.

interesting

the 2 guys in that video were brown belts (not black belts) at the time of the video being shot, they were very much beginners and had just "learned" the basic postures of the form shown.

[Mei Hua]

the 2 guys in that video were brown belts (not black belts) at the time of the video being shot, they were very much beginners and had just "learned" the basic postures of the form shown.

For brown belts, their technical skill and application was horrible!

I have students that have been with me six weeks that can perform better and have a better core than the crap I saw those frauds doing

[BentMonk]

For brown belts, their technical skill and application was horrible!

I have students that have been with me six weeks that can perform better and have a better core than the crap I saw those frauds doing

Are we to infer by your comment that these same students would have the right amount of technical skill, application, and core after six weeks of instruction by you?

Just because something is poorly performed does not mean that the original is worthless.

[Judge Pen]

Beware the true power of Shaolin Do black belts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnpaW5hXWDg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edragonslist%2Ecom%2Fdiscus sion%2Fanimal%2Dforms%2Dstyles%2F19987%2Dwanted%2D info%2Dshaolin%2Ddo%2Dkarate%2D5%2Ehtml) :eek:

Not that my videos make SD look any better, but I think there is real merit in SD as a art and there are some very poor represntations depending on your instruction. I know some schools that do it right: a balance of conditioning, drills, instruction, application and sparring. I know others that make short-cuts. The second guy in the video is much better than the first. I could nit-pick some of his technique, but I can do that to myself as well (easily).

And these weren't SD black belts. This is a form that is done right before black and its obvious that they were new to the form.

[Mei Hua]

Are we to infer by your comment that these same students would have the right amount of technical skill, application, and core after six weeks of instruction by you?

Just because something is poorly performed does not mean that the original is worthless.
When one has reached the level of brown belt, regardless of style, one has spent enough time and effort in their training to have a solid core foundation and technical ability.

Those forms were not only horribly sloppy, they lacked power, did not represent Tiger very well and sucked. That comes from their instruction and those heading their system and the system itself.

Perhaps to you crappy martial arts are ok as is being a LARPer, not to me

[Judge Pen]

For brown belts, their technical skill and application was horrible!

I have students that have been with me six weeks that can perform better and have a better core than the crap I saw those frauds doing

That is a function of the student and the teacher. I've seen students in SD that were better after 6 weeks also. It just depends. BTW, the second guy has potential. There are a few things in his form that can be corrected and there needs to be that intensity and flavor to the form, but if they just learned the postures, then that's more than forgivable.

[Judge Pen]

When one has reached the level of brown belt, regardless of style, one has spent enough time and effort in their training to have a solid core foundation and technical ability.

Those forms were not only horribly sloppy, they lacked power, did not represent Tiger very well and sucked. That comes from their instruction and those heading their system and the system itself.

Perhaps to you crappy martial arts are ok as is being a LARPer, not to me

Its easy to sit back and say that, but everyone trains for different reasons. Is a teacher going to turn away students that enjoy learning because they may not be very good at it? Or is a teacher going to reward a student for hard work and improvment based upon where they were in the begining? Only a very few number of students actually get "good" at an art, but the rest certainly improve from where they were and have fun doing it. What, pray tell, is wrong with that?

[kungfujunky]

i wasnt saying they sucked lol

if indeed they had just learned that form then they did better than most i have seen new to that particular form.

but i agree jp

the second guy definitely had a better feel for it from what i saw

[Toby]

Is a teacher going to turn away students that enjoy learning because they may not be very good at it? Or is a teacher going to reward a student for hard work and improvment based upon where they were in the begining? Only a very few number of students actually get "good" at an art, but the rest certainly improve from where they were and have fun doing it. What, pray tell, is wrong with that?I'm not a teacher in martial arts, and I doubt I ever will be (commercially - I might teach my family if they're willing to learn). I've taught both mental and physical pursuits at a high level in the past. I wish you could only teach good students. Teaching good students is infinitely easier than teaching poor students. Poor students also drain resources much more (specifically time). And poor students possibly are a bad investment - I'd personally like to cull them from the group. E.g. there are a couple of guys at the school I train at that IMHO don't belong in the group that they train with, but they've put in time. There are others that are junior to them that already eclipse them. IMHO they'll never get it. One has physical barriers due to advanced age, one just doesn't seem to listen or just isn't aware of his shortcomings. They have a certain rank that means that possibly beginners will watch them and try to emulate them, and that worries me because it could hurt the development of the people watching them. I have definitely heard one of them on multiple occasions telling and showing junior people what to do, and it makes me cringe. It's not my business to override them, but I really have to bite my lip. I can see how teaching kung fu must be hard - how does one deal with students like that?

[Judge Pen]

I'm not a teacher in martial arts, and I doubt I ever will be (commercially - I might teach my family if they're willing to learn). I've taught both mental and physical pursuits at a high level in the past. I wish you could only teach good students. Teaching good students is infinitely easier than teaching poor students. Poor students also drain resources much more (specifically time). And poor students possibly are a bad investment - I'd personally like to cull them from the group. E.g. there are a couple of guys at the school I train at that IMHO don't belong in the group that they train with, but they've put in time. There are others that are junior to them that already eclipse them. IMHO they'll never get it. One has physical barriers due to advanced age, one just doesn't seem to listen or just isn't aware of his shortcomings. They have a certain rank that means that possibly beginners will watch them and try to emulate them, and that worries me because it could hurt the development of the people watching them. I have definitely heard one of them on multiple occasions telling and showing junior people what to do, and it makes me cringe. It's not my business to override them, but I really have to bite my lip. I can see how teaching kung fu must be hard - how does one deal with students like that?

These problems are only compounded when you are running a business--especially if your full time job is an instructor. It's a difficult problem, but in my exerience, most of these types of students eventually drift off because the material and physical demands get too difficult even for the more relaxed standards that they subject themselves to. That, or in the best case, a light bulb goes off and they suddenly start to get it and their form and discipline improve. I've seen both, but unfortunately, the former is far more common then the later.

[Lamassu]

For brown belts, their technical skill and application was horrible!

I have students that have been with me six weeks that can perform better and have a better core than the crap I saw those frauds doing

Yay another one!!! I just love hearing from the peanut gallery that shows up out of the blue and just start talking sh!t about SD! You're so awesome Mei Hua, I must say we're all genuinely impressed over here!:rolleyes: Wow, nobody has EVER posted that video on this forum before and no one's EVER accused SD of being fake either. You're so insightful, you've opened my eyes and I have now seen the light. All it took was a super duper awesome martial art master like yourself to point out the blatantly overdone to the rest of us to make me realize that I've spent the last 6 years of my life living a lie *sigh*. Can I join your school and be your student, granddaddy master of all that's awesome Mei Hua? I would just LOVE to learn (insert whatever crappy MA you claim to teach and know) under your wise and experienced tutalage. :rolleyes:

[Mei Hua]

WOW!!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


The number of pathetic LARPers on this forum are amazing, no wonder the CMA's get such a horrible reputation and suck so bad, they have the morons like you fools leading the way

[Judge Pen]

WOW!!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


The number of pathetic LARPers on this forum are amazing, no wonder the CMA's get such a horrible reputation and suck so bad, they have the morons like you fools leading the way

That's constructive. Get personal why don't ya? :D If you're not impressed with the members of the forum, then don't post. It sounds as if you don't need any more negativity in your life.

[Lamassu]

WOW!!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


The number of pathetic LARPers on this forum are amazing, no wonder the CMA's get such a horrible reputation and suck so bad, they have the morons like you fools leading the way

Forgive me super duper granddaddy big kahoona mega master of (insert crappy MA you claim to teach and know). I did not mean to offend, I supplicate myself and humbly beg to learn (insert crappy MA you claim to teach and know). Show me the way of whatever MA you're apparently teaching.

To the rest of the unenlightened SD practitioners out there:
You arrogant dogs!!! How dare you continue to study and practice SD after the great Mei Hua has clearly stated it's crap!! You should all be ashamed of yourselves for not taking his overgeneralized and baseless attack on SD to heart and begin anew...particularly with (insert crappy MA Mei Hua claims to teach and know).

[Toby]

It's a difficult problem, but in my exerience, most of these types of students eventually drift off because the material and physical demands get too difficult even for the more relaxed standards that they subject themselves to. That, or in the best case, a light bulb goes off and they suddenly start to get it and their form and discipline improve. I've seen both, but unfortunately, the former is far more common then the later.I've hoped for the former with one guy. The old guy - it'll get to hard for him eventually, although he's given a fair bit of leeway e.g. people take it easy on him, he doesn't spar, etc. Personally I avoid training with him, only done it once. I'm scared he'll break (he looks like he's pushing 80). But the other guy, he's been training for maybe 6 years. He's there every day. He finishes work pretty early every day then goes straight to the school, does not quite enough training to break a sweat, then just sits around for a couple of hours until class starts. I've seen him sleeping in his car in the car park. Maybe he doesn't have a home to go to or something, maybe he doesn't like training. But he's always there. If it was me I'd be using the facilities and other people there to train with but nope. He's just there taking up space. He's a mystery for sure. I avoid training with him too :p . He just doesn't seem to get a lot of the core principles, stuff that's been hammered into us from day 1. Strange.

[Judge Pen]

I've hoped for the former with one guy. The old guy - it'll get to hard for him eventually, although he's given a fair bit of leeway e.g. people take it easy on him, he doesn't spar, etc. Personally I avoid training with him, only done it once. I'm scared he'll break (he looks like he's pushing 80). But the other guy, he's been training for maybe 6 years. He's there every day. He finishes work pretty early every day then goes straight to the school, does not quite enough training to break a sweat, then just sits around for a couple of hours until class starts. I've seen him sleeping in his car in the car park. Maybe he doesn't have a home to go to or something, maybe he doesn't like training. But he's always there. If it was me I'd be using the facilities and other people there to train with but nope. He's just there taking up space. He's a mystery for sure. I avoid training with him too :p . He just doesn't seem to get a lot of the core principles, stuff that's been hammered into us from day 1. Strange.

I've seen some students like that. Its like they don't have much of a life, but yet they don't fully dedicate themselves to the proper training of martial arts either. That's frusterating.

BTW, what style do you train in ? Nice to meet you here on this train-wreck of the thread! :p

[mkriii]

Hello Mei, is that you? It's Jade Dragon from the DL.

[Judge Pen]

Hello Mei, is that you? It's Jade Dragon from the DL.

a DL connection? That makes sense....

[mkriii]

Hello all. How the heck are all you SD students and teachers? Hope the world is treating you good. I feel on top of the world. Life is good....no, life is grand because I am grand. I see my old buddy Mei Hua has joined the forum. He's a great guy and shares a lot of my opinions. As a matter of fact I told him about this great conversation we've been having and told him he should join in. Do you not like the DL?

[MasterKiller]

So MKRiii's buddy calls SD LARPers, all the while MKRiii was getting conditioning ideas from Shaw Brothers' movies?

I love this thread!

[Lamassu]

Life is indeed grand. :)

[mkriii]

So I have a question for all you SD people, Are you tring to tell me that GM Sin has mastered over 600 forms? And he did this by age 25 when he was given the title of GM? He didn't start training till age 6. that means he mastered 37.5 forms a year. Thats 600 forms devided by the number of years he had trained (which is 16) and thats 37.5

Unbelievable. He must be like rainman. No human can master that many forms unless he has supernatural powers.

[mkriii]

I like how you TRY to turn the tables on me by bringing up the training exercises from shaw bros. movies. Well it didn't work. Your just trying to take the heat off you.

[Lamassu]

So I have a question for all you SD people, Are you tring to tell me that GM Sin has mastered over 600 forms? And he did this by age 25 when he was given the title of GM? He didn't start training till age 6. that means he mastered 37.5 forms a year. Thats 600 forms devided by the number of years he had trained (which is 16) and thats 37.5

Unbelievable. He must be like rainman. No human can master that many forms unless he has supernatural powers.

OMG!!!! :eek: You're absolutely right! Never in all my training have I thought about this before. While we're on the subject aren't we, a chinese martial art school, wearing Japanese gi's, and isn't 'Do' Japanese for 'the way'? No no, none of this is making sense at all!

Mei Hua! I beg you earnestly to take me in as your student in (insert whatever crappy MA you claim to teach and know)! mkriii, could you give a good word for me to the ultimate super duper granddaddy of complete and total awesomeness Mei Hua? I feel it's fate that has brought him into my life and I must LEARN from him!

so many lies... so many lies... :(

[mkriii]

I tell you what Lamassu, maybe....just maybe he will take you on as his student if you spill a whole bowl of rice and then pick them up and count them one at a time like GM Sin did. If you get the correct amount he might except you as his student.

[MasterKiller]

I like how you TRY to turn the tables on me by bringing up the training exercises from shaw bros. movies. Well it didn't work. Your just trying to take the heat off you.

For the record, I am not and have never been an SD'er.

[mkriii]

So why defend SD? Are you just a wanna be SD student or Did GM Sin not want you as a student?

[MasterKiller]

So why defend SD? Are you just a wanna be SD student or Did GM Sin not want you as a student?

I wish! I've been trying to learn the secrets of Golden Snake since I was 15!

[DPL]

Why's it gotta all be about SD? He was just calling you out for being a doofus. No more, no less.

Although, MK, you've posted so much on the subject we could always make you an honorary SD'er.

[Lamassu]

I tell you what Lamassu, maybe....just maybe he will take you on as his student if you spill a whole bowl of rice and then pick them up and count them one at a time like GM Sin did. If you get the correct amount he might except you as his student.

So I get to spill the bowl of rice? Sweet! Mei Hua is a kind and generous teacher to let me in (insert whatever crappy MA you claim to teach and know) so easily.

There I'm done! There are 845 grains of rice. Boy was that easy! :p

[mkriii]

846 grains of rice, you were one off. Guess your not excepted.

[MasterKiller]

Although, MK, you've posted so much on the subject we could always make you an honorary SD'er.
I barely have time to keep up my own handsets. ;)

[Lamassu]

846 grains of rice, you were one off. Guess your not excepted.

No, you're wrong. Since I was the one that spilled the bowl of rice then I already knew how many were in there to start with. 845. You shame Mei Hua. :(

[mkriii]

Thanks but no thanks. Already have a brown belt in SD.

[Lamassu]

I barely have time to keep up my own handsets. ;)

CURSES!!!!! :mad: MK was actually defending SD for a bit! :eek: We were THIS close to bringing him over to the dark side of the force.

[Judge Pen]

I like how you TRY to turn the tables on me by bringing up the training exercises from shaw bros. movies. Well it didn't work. Your just trying to take the heat off you.

I don't feel any heat, but that's because I don't do my push-ups ontop of a burning incense stick....

[Lamassu]

Thanks but no thanks. Already have a brown belt in SD.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused:

Are you crazy? Is that your problem?

[Judge Pen]

So I have a question for all you SD people, Are you tring to tell me that GM Sin has mastered over 600 forms? And he did this by age 25 when he was given the title of GM? He didn't start training till age 6. that means he mastered 37.5 forms a year. Thats 600 forms devided by the number of years he had trained (which is 16) and thats 37.5

Unbelievable. He must be like rainman. No human can master that many forms unless he has supernatural powers.

I'm not saying any of that. I don't know how many forms he learned, how many forms he "mastered" or when he did either. All I know is the material and the training I've been taught so far, and that's good enough for me.

[Mei Hua]

So MKRiii's buddy calls SD LARPers, all the while MKRiii was getting conditioning ideas from Shaw Brothers' movies?

I love this thread!


Who said anything about us being buddies?

I will call a McDojo on their BS when I see it.


And all the related aspects of Shaolin Do Karate scream BS, LARPing and McDojo; their training as seen by myself and others, by their demonstrated forms, by the fact it's been proven they've stolen styles and forms from other MA styles and claimed them as their own, often creating new names for them in the process:rolleyes:
The fact they claim to be Shaolin Do which combines Japanese and Chinese then they claim to be Karate, again doing the same, then they wear Karate uniforms and belts, which again screams BS.
The way they keep pressuring their students to start new levels/styles at higher costs to make them better martial artists and keep the progression going at ever higher pay structures.
The way their GM claimed a GMship at a young age when no one else has ever achieved such a level in such a short time.


Seems like the majority of people on this forum are in love with subpar, crappy martial arts and crappy training, this is often talked about on all the other forums, y'all should try training for real and get out of your kung fu movie wet dreams

[Flaca]

So I have a question for all you SD people, Are you tring to tell me that GM Sin has mastered over 600 forms? And he did this by age 25 when he was given the title of GM? He didn't start training till age 6. that means he mastered 37.5 forms a year. Thats 600 forms devided by the number of years he had trained (which is 16) and thats 37.5

Unbelievable. He must be like rainman. No human can master that many forms unless he has supernatural powers.

Not really. I train with at least a few people who are 'sponges'. They easily learn 4forms in a month (at 2nd black), that's an average of 52 forms a year, if need be. No last names, but, Anh-Thu, Tommy, Hugh, Eva. And yes, they learn and perform the forms well. I don't really know folks at other belt levels.
I'm more of a sieve... :o

[Judge Pen]

Who said anything about us being buddies?

I will call a McDojo on their BS when I see it.


And all the related aspects of Shaolin Do Karate scream BS, LARPing and McDojo; their training as seen by myself and others, by their demonstrated forms, by the fact it's been proven they've stolen styles and forms from other MA styles and claimed them as their own, often creating new names for them in the process:rolleyes:
The fact they claim to be Shaolin Do which combines Japanese and Chinese then they claim to be Karate, again doing the same, then they wear Karate uniforms and belts, which again screams BS.
The way they keep pressuring their students to start new levels/styles at higher costs to make them better martial artists and keep the progression going at ever higher pay structures.
The way their GM claimed a GMship at a young age when no one else has ever achieved such a level in such a short time.


Seems like the majority of people on this forum are in love with subpar, crappy martial arts and crappy training, this is often talked about on all the other forums, y'all should try training for real and get out of your kung fu movie wet dreams

*Yawn* Wake me up when a new point that hasn't been debated endlessly comes up.

[mkriii]

I really like the for Si Mon Ta Li (sp?). It has some really practicle techniques in it (not). Like the first couple moves where you block high then low (or vice versa). Can't remember it's been a while. SD has some really practical knife defenses also.

[Lamassu]

Who said anything about us being buddies?

I will call a McDojo on their BS when I see it.


And all the related aspects of Shaolin Do Karate scream BS, LARPing and McDojo; their training as seen by myself and others, by their demonstrated forms, by the fact it's been proven they've stolen styles and forms from other MA styles and claimed them as their own, often creating new names for them in the process:rolleyes:
The fact they claim to be Shaolin Do which combines Japanese and Chinese then they claim to be Karate, again doing the same, then they wear Karate uniforms and belts, which again screams BS.
The way they keep pressuring their students to start new levels/styles at higher costs to make them better martial artists and keep the progression going at ever higher pay structures.
The way their GM claimed a GMship at a young age when no one else has ever achieved such a level in such a short time.


Seems like the majority of people on this forum are in love with subpar, crappy martial arts and crappy training, this is often talked about on all the other forums, y'all should try training for real and get out of your kung fu movie wet dreams

Super duper great granddaddy of complete awesomness and grand poobah master of (insert whatever crappy MA you claim to teach and know), at last the great Siddhartha has heard my prayers and you've shown!! I'm ready to begin my training in (insert whatever crappy MA you claim to teach and know); I've defeated mrkiii in a heated battle of counting and thus proven my mettle.