Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Baqualin]

Well I stopped in at the Sin The school to meet Baqualin like I said I would do but he wasn't there. The only person there was a lady with blonde hair sitting at the counter where they sell the swords and stuff so I left. I might go back in a few days. It was about 4:30 in the afternoon when I stopped by.

I work a regular Job.....you can catch me there Sat.'s 11:00am.;)
BQ

[Baqualin]

Man, these last 10 pages are taking forever....we need more trolls:eek:
BQ

[mkriii]

More trolls......lol? OK I'll try to do better at trolling. I believe that this post would be considered trolling, isn't it?

[Judge Pen]

More trolls......lol? OK I'll try to do better at trolling. I believe that this post would be considered trolling, isn't it?

How much trolling could a good troll troll if a good troll trolled SD?

[mkriii]

A good troll could troll alot if a troll trolled SD. :)

[Flaca]

No, not a nike endorsment but there are shoes made specifically for martial arts such as pine tree, addidas, etc..... Even bare foot would have looked better than those nasty looking shoes.

Trolling? LMAO.

BTW personal appearance plays a big part when looking for a m.a. school. Wearing crappy clothes IMO is not the best way to attract students.

Good, you were supposed to laugh.

Martial arts is his life, he always wears shoes and pants etc that he trains in. He wears shoes when he trains to protect his joints and feet. I wish I could wear gi pants & tennies to work. :cool:

Come on people, 500 is sooo close.
:D

[Baqualin]

Eh... you'd be surprised... I've been exposed to lots & have high tolerance levels bordering on almost insane... minus pain... that's not so high...

C'mon 500...

Guess you never made it through iron bone training:D
BQ

[kwaichang]

I just learned Youth Long Fist does anyone know the history or Chinese name for this form , it is an awesome form KC

[sean_stonehart]

Guess you never made it through iron bone training:D
BQ

Actually I'm pretty good with the saam sing... I like it. The Stump of Woe at my sifu's is a fav of mine that I've sadly neglected for a while.

[sean_stonehart]

I just learned Youth Long Fist does anyone know the history or Chinese name for this form , it is an awesome form KC

It's a PRC training set for kids. Nothing special... modern wushu SD'd.

[kwaichang]

do you know it or have you seen it ? KC

[sean_stonehart]

do you know it or have you seen it ? KC

Had it after it was initially taught out. Let it go years back.

[MasterKiller]

I just learned Youth Long Fist does anyone know the history or Chinese name for this form , it is an awesome form KC

Youth Long Fist? Is that the English name?

Qing-Nian Chuan (young fist) 青 年 拳 is a long fist form, often taught at Southern schools. I believe it was added into some Hung Gar curriculums, but it's Northern in origin.

It has two sections and is also taught as a two-man form sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD4VTtufn8c

[sean_stonehart]

Youth Long Fist? Is that the English name?

Qing-Nian Chuan (young fist) 青 年 拳 is a long fist form, often taught at Southern schools. I believe it was added into some Hung Gar curriculums, but it's Northern in origin.

It has two sections and is also taught as a two-man form sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD4VTtufn8c

Nah... this is a Chang Quan type set. I don't know what level of routine it is, but it's not the typical compulsary Chang Quan from the PRC, but it felt like it when I learned it. I could be an off the wall TCMA Chang Quan but I don't know from what school.

It's almost like those duan sets out there on youtube by the chunky woman, but a little longer. Let me stress & be uber clear... this isn't what it is... just what it felt like when you removed the rebar from the back & quit trying to overpower & overkill every single motion... this is what it would've worked like...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65KqI1qBJyI

[Judge Pen]

I could be an off the wall TCMA Chang Quan but I don't know from what school.


So you're not for certain its a PRC children's training set? I was hoping that a man with your internet acumen could find a clip of the PRC version so I could compare the two.

[kwaichang]

Some just comment on things to hear themselves rattle. Dont post if you dont know. KC:eek:

[sean_stonehart]

Some just comment on things to hear themselves rattle. Dont post if you dont know. KC:eek:

Oh I'm sorry He Who Knows Everything Is Everything SD.

I do know it's a Chang Quan set. I do know it's not from the South where SD claims roots from Fujian. I do know it wasn't taught until recent history like many other things in SD after a couple of China trips & new CDs were available to the public like Mulan Fans from Mulan Quan (which isn't even a freaking TCMA for Crissakes), Xingyi Weaponry, Bagua Weaponry...

So I'll give JP's suggestion a go & see what I can find on it for you since apparently you're not willing to look outside the SD box to see where it came from.

[sean_stonehart]

So you're not for certain its a PRC children's training set? I was hoping that a man with your internet acumen could find a clip of the PRC version so I could compare the two.

I'm gonna give it a shot to look it up.

I said it was a PRC training set for kids but I could very easily be wrong with that assumption, since we all know who assuming does. Think of "intro" level or maybe even the stuff taught at schools for PE since it's not the compulsary comp form. Or it may be a small TCMA set but it didn't feel like it.

I'll see what I can find to appease He Who Can Not Be Wrong Since All Is SD up the street from you. Maybe something, maybe not.

[Judge Pen]

I'm gonna give it a shot to look it up.

I said it was a PRC training set for kids but I could very easily be wrong with that assumption, since we all know who assuming does. Think of "intro" level or maybe even the stuff taught at schools for PE since it's not the compulsary comp form. Or it may be a small TCMA set but it didn't feel like it.

I'll see what I can find to appease He Who Can Not Be Wrong Since All Is SD up the street from you. Maybe something, maybe not.

I don't have the characters for the set, but the romanization I have for the form is Tung Tze Chang Chien

I'll be interested if you can find an example of the same form. I'm sure its out there somewhere.

[sean_stonehart]

I don't have the characters for the set, but the romanization I have for the form is Tung Tze Chang Chien

Thanks... that should help some.



I'll be interested if you can find an example of the same form. I'm sure its out there somewhere.

Given the amount of stuff that's out there, you'd think. I'll let you know what I find or don't find.

[sean_stonehart]

Sean
Have you also been taught the 4 china hands as well
and let them go by the way side as well
OTH

The 2 at brown. Those were the only 2 I had.

When I say "let them go" I mean I don't practice them, haven't practiced them since the day I left & don't intend to in the future. That's not meaning I don't remember them or have totally forgotten them, but they are far away on the back burner. All of the SD material is. The older it is, the more engrained in the memory banks it is, the more likely I could reproduce it again if there was a need to. The newer the material was ... not so much.

[B-Rad]

Any hope of someone going through it on video and posting it up? If it's modern chang quan, I'd most likely recognize it, and I've got quite a few Chinese chang quan vcds and training manuals lying around.

[bodhi warrior]

I can remember back in the late 80's early 90's GMS stated he would teach everything he knew in the next 5 years. Then he made his trip to indonesia and knew 900 forms all of a sudden. But if you look at Hiang's material its stayed relatively the same, with a few addtions over the years. And he doesn't claim 900 forms either.
Comments, please.

[Judge Pen]

I can remember back in the late 80's early 90's GMS stated he would teach everything he knew in the next 5 years. Then he made his trip to indonesia and knew 900 forms all of a sudden. But if you look at Hiang's material its stayed relatively the same, with a few addtions over the years. And he doesn't claim 900 forms either.
Comments, please.

Doesn't the 1987 Inside Kung Fu Magazine reference over 900 forms? If so, that would pre-date the early 1990s Indonesia trip.

[Chain Whip]

Originally Posted by bodhi warrior
I can remember back in the late 80's early 90's GMS stated he would teach everything he knew in the next 5 years. Then he made his trip to indonesia and knew 900 forms all of a sudden. But if you look at Hiang's material its stayed relatively the same, with a few addtions over the years. And he doesn't claim 900 forms either.
Comments, please.

The 900 forms claim started in the late 80's. From what I understand - and I could be wrong here. Master Grooms actually was the first to say "900 forms." This is because the Soards told him something like it was 300 forms to reach 6th Black and that at that point you had 1/3 of the system. (keep in mind back in the mid 80's there were no 6th Blacks except for EM Leonard possibly) Being such a math wizard he figured that meant 900 forms and said so in his marketing materials (which has since been removed) I do not believe there is any mention of 900 forms prior to this point. However, if someone can produce something claiming 900 forms that pre-dates about 1986 then I would be obviously incorrect.

[bodhi warrior]

If there were 300 forms by 6th, then why is there less than 200 listed up to 5th black?if you look at the masters certificates they have less than 200 also.

[sean_stonehart]

I don't have the characters for the set, but the romanization I have for the form is Tung Tze Chang Chien

I think the name might be a bit generic using that because most Tong Zi sets I've found are the Shaolin Tong Zi Gong & that ain't it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t73DTMVBNqo



I'll be interested if you can find an example of the same form. I'm sure its out there somewhere.

I got turned onto a series earlier called Juvenile Chang Quan but I'm not dishing the cash out for them, possible hits or not. If it were CLF... maybe. But not Chang Quan. ;)

[Chain Whip]

If there were 300 forms by 6th, then why is there less than 200 listed up to 5th black?if you look at the masters certificates they have less than 200 also.

Good question. The Master Certificates were designed and printed in Atlanta, based on the information on the chart that GMT wrote out a few years earlier outlining the material up to 5th Black. On that list at least 3 of the Drunken Immortals have still not been taught. When the Soards were telling Master Grooms the bit about the 300 forms there were no Master Certificates to look at, nor was there a list of requirements from 5th to 6th. So, to answer your question there were never 300 forms required for 6th Black.

[B-Rad]

I got turned onto a series earlier called Juvenile Chang Quan but I'm not dishing the cash out for them, possible hits or not. If it were CLF... maybe. But not Chang Quan.

Is this the series?
http://www.xinxingshop.us/product_67.html

[sean_stonehart]

Yup tht's it

[Judge Pen]

Atlanta is the only group, that I know of, that refers to the the forms Lien U Chang and Chie Chien as 'China Hand'. Anyone from the ATL group know why its called that down there?

[kungfujunky]

i learned them as part of the whirling palm system

[mkriii]

I've noticed that everyone here seems to talk about GMS but know one ever talks about his brother who is now a grandmaster of Central Shaolin Martial Arts. What I find interesting is that know where on either ones web site do you see them mention the other. Not even in the history section of thier site where you would expect to see a little something mentioned. The two of them taught together for what, ten years or more? Kind of strange to me. Must of been one hell of an arguement between the two to not even recognize each other. Talk about a family fued. Who can tell me something about GM Hwang The' and his Central Shaolin Martial Art?

[Judge Pen]

I've noticed that everyone here seems to talk about GMS but know one ever talks about his brother who is now a grandmaster of Central Shaolin Martial Arts. What I find interesting is that know where on either ones web site do you see them mention the other. Not even in the history section of thier site where you would expect to see a little something mentioned. The two of them taught together for what, ten years or more? Kind of strange to me. Must of been one hell of an arguement between the two to not even recognize each other. Talk about a family fued. Who can tell me something about GM Hwang The' and his Central Shaolin Martial Art?

Whatever happened is between the brothers. All we could do is speculate and guess, and I'd rather focus my energy elsewhere.

[mkriii]

OTD......I know the history of my school, the true history. Do you know yours? I mean the true history? I seriously doubt it. Besides, to quote Jack Nicholson....You can't handle the truth. Do you know all about the self promoting? Do you know the history of violent attacks on other schools instructors at tournaments? Are you really learning Chinese kung fu? Or are you learning a little bit of hodge podge from here and there? Most of you Shaolin Do guys have been brainwashed to believe everything that you all are told. Most of you are Sin The' cool aid drinkers. I understand it's not your fault, you've been brainwashed so I'll overlook it. You have cuaght me on a bad day so don't start with me OTD.

[mkriii]

Judge......I don't really care what the fight between the two were about. It's not our business, I am curious though. My main reason for posting was that I just thought it was interesting that the two brothers don't mention a word of the other on thier web sites. You would think that as long as they were together that you would find some mention of them under the history section of their web sites.

:)

[mkriii]

OTD....How much trolling can a troll troll in SD? Answer me that!!! Bet you can't.

:)

[Judge Pen]

OTD....How much trolling can a troll troll in SD? Answer me that!!! Bet you can't.

:)

Eh, right now your troll count is 131 posts. :D

[kungfujunky]

mkrii

you are starting a school .....are you the grandmaster? or do you have one that will visit and train your students? or is he just a picture on the wall?

whatever you people want to say i get to train with my grandmaster multiple times each year.

ive seen his body mechanics and his conditioning. ive seen his power and explosiveness.

i am not brainwashed. i have seen it.

the brothers split for various reasons that are nobodies business but the brothers and the senior masters in the art who were there.

[mkriii]

Kungfujunky.......No I'm not the grandmaster. My teacher is in Boston but I get to train with him about every other month. He is not a Grandmaster either. I do get to train with our Grandmaster though. Our Grandmaster lives about 4 hours away from where I live (Lexington Ky). He does not teach B.S. like some teachers or grandmasters do. He is a very smart man. He holds college dgrees in 7 different fields, he is a doctor, and a practicing pharmacist. Not only is he smart school wise but also martial art wise as well.

[DPL]

He holds college dgrees in 7 different fields...

You do realize that this has nothing to do with intelligence, don't you? College degrees are a lot like black belts - you can buy them lots of places with minimal outlay of effort. Not saying your GM did that, but he could have 20 degrees and it doesn't prove a thing.

With rare exceptions, the most a college degree says about you is that you proved you can jump through the correct hoops.

[Citong Shifu]

The 900 forms claim started in the late 80's. From what I understand - and I could be wrong here. Master Grooms actually was the first to say "900 forms." This is because the Soards told him something like it was 300 forms to reach 6th Black and that at that point you had 1/3 of the system. (keep in mind back in the mid 80's there were no 6th Blacks except for EM Leonard possibly) Being such a math wizard he figured that meant 900 forms and said so in his marketing materials (which has since been removed) I do not believe there is any mention of 900 forms prior to this point. However, if someone can produce something claiming 900 forms that pre-dates about 1986 then I would be obviously incorrect.

Shoot! After 31 years in the martial arts I have quite an extensive collection of Shaolin and other Shaolin sub-style kung fu forms... I would bet there's at least 200 sets (empty hand, training drill sets, weapons, two mant empty & weapon set, etc). 90% of my material is pre-1900's (Fukien Shaolin art and Tongbei). I do have some not so old styles like Mantis, Ziranmen, etc. Nonetheless, there still pre-1900's. So, with documentation and lineage validation from America to Mainland China, Fujian Province I can award myself the title of Grandmaster. Considering, I'm the only senior instructor of my teacher here in America making me the only one with our styles family lineage and manuals. LOL, Joking! Really, This is acceptable here in America, but it wouldn't fly in mainland China.

SD will continue to build until it declines, just as a "ALL" the other styles/arts out there... How many of you really think that the American (the majority) public gives a rats a$$ about who is who and what? The majority could care less, SAD but TRUE... anyway, I gotta go work on my new Grandmastership title, lol...

Shaolin power never goes sour! :D

CS.

[kungfujunky]

yeah well my grandmaster can speak 16 languages and hop on one foot

man wow!

since you have the be all end all system and know we are studying crap please move onto something else. you post irrelevant topics and have very little to add to the conversation here. you are flaming and trolling with almost every post.

[Citong Shifu]

yeah well my grandmaster can speak 16 languages and hop on one foot

man wow!

since you have the be all end all system and know we are studying crap please move onto something else. you post irrelevant topics and have very little to add to the conversation here. you are flaming and trolling with almost every post.


I was only adding my anology on this thread (SD & ST). I'm always careful to not disrespect anyone or style when I post. I'm not dissing ST, he built his style and made it what it is today.... More power to him & SD. Believe it or not, regardless of how SD comes across, it really help build popularity within the CMA.... In my opinion... Anyway, power to the people. Gotta love America...

CS

[Judge Pen]

I was only adding my anology on this thread (SD & ST). I'm always careful to not disrespect anyone or style when I post. I'm not dissing ST, he built his style and made it what it is today.... More power to him & SD. Believe it or not, regardless of how SD comes across, it really help build popularity within the CMA.... In my opinion... Anyway, power to the people. Gotta love America...

CS

I think KFJ was referring to MRK's post not yours. Am I right, KFJ?

[kungfujunky]

I think KFJ was referring to MRK's post not yours. Am I right, KFJ?



yep!

nothing about you in there citong

[mkriii]

He got his college degrees at Western Ky University and Eastern Kentucky University. He had to go to college or he would be sent back to mainland China where he fled from. He got a degree in accounting, Medicine, pharmacy, philosophy, phycology, and I can't remember the others. But I assure you he didn't "buy" his degrees. He's very intellegent.

[Citong Shifu]

yep!

nothing about you in there citong

Oh, that guy. I was wondering about that, lol... Ok, catch you guys later. Thanks.

CS

[Citong Shifu]

He got his college degrees at Western Ky University and Eastern Kentucky University. He had to go to college or he would be sent back to mainland China where he fled from. He got a degree in accounting, Medicine, pharmacy, philosophy, phycology, and I can't remember the others. But I assure you he didn't "buy" his degrees. He's very intellegent.

You guys have a school website? If so, what's the link. Thanks.

CS

[yu shan]

Grandmaster Citong

"careful not to disrespect anyone or style" What about Wah Lum? Gotcha, just had to say it! ;)

[mkriii]

Since I'm on a roll here of trolling (according to you), let me troll some more......What you say is trolling is merely me stating the truth about your style. I along with many others have stated that Shaolin Do Karate isn't kung fu. It may contain a little bit of Shaolin kung fu but it's not purely kung fu. People should know this up front before joining. "Grandmaster" Sin may have the word Shaolin in the name but certain techniques that are taught are not shaolin kung fu. Lets call an ace an ace and a spade a spade. Don't B.S. people just to make a buck off the name Shaolin. Remember, I studied under him many many years ago but I still remember some of the stuff he taught. Looking back, it did not resemble anything that I have seen that is Shaolin. Does this mean every one else is a fraud? If your right and I'm making false statements out of ignorance than why is it that there are 1000's of people who have said the same thing? Are they ignorant as well for making the same statements?

[Citong Shifu]

Grandmaster Citong

"careful not to disrespect anyone or style" What about Wah Lum? Gotcha, just had to say it! ;)

LMAO :D. Dont you know, Citong Power Never Goes Sour! :D:D:D:D:D... No really, I was thinking more along the lines of - Great Supreme Grandmaster Citong - I kinda want to be different from everyone else. LOL...

[kwaichang]

Tell or show me a technique that is not Shaolin included in SD. ??? If SD were called China Hand Chuan Fa would all this bul be going on ? KC

[sean_stonehart]

Tell or show me a technique that is not Shaolin included in SD. ??? If SD were called China Hand Chuan Fa would all this bul be going on ? KC

China Hand Chuan Fa is just as ridiculous as Chinese Kenpo, Shaolin Kenpo, Chinese Goju or any other half dozen claims to the Shaolin name or China, so yeah probably... and it has.

Technique that is not Shaolin included in SD??

Ippon Kumite -- c'mon....
Xingyi -- Yue Feh/Muslim origins depending on the story or line
Bagua Zhang -- Jiang Rong qiao's bagua has Cheng Ting Hua roots
Taiji Quan -- Chen is the closest to Shaolin Pao Chui of all the taiji styles & it gets further & further from there
Mulan Quan Fans -- The woman who put it together in Shanghai plays taiji
5 Animal Play -- Hua To wasn't from Shaolin... he predates it


How's that for staters?

[kwaichang]

I address the Hua To statement .
Wushu (or Kung fu) appeared in ancient China as early as 2,500 years ago. During the Spring and Autumn and the Warring States Periods (770 - 221BC), a method called Daoyin was evolved to promote health.

In a tomb of Western Han Dynasty (206BC - 24AD), discovered near Changsha in Hunan Province, a silk scroll was found on which figures were drawn in different postures -- sitting in meditation, bending, or squatting. At the end of Eastern Han Dynasty (25 - 220AD), a renowned medical doctor, Hua Tuo, created a set of exercises called Wuqinxi (Five Animals Play), mimicking the movements of animals. One of Hua's disciples, also a devotee of Wuqingxi, was said to have lived over 100 years. Wu Pu, another Hua's follower, was reputed to have sound teeth and acute hearing and sight at his late 80s. Hua Tuo's inventive work has a far-reaching influence on the history of Chinese Wushu

It is only Logical that it had such wide impact that the Shaolin would have incorporated it as well.

The Chen village is quite close to the Shaolin Temple and it is rumored the other styles came from it. The Shaolin temple teaches a Tai Chi as well thus Tai Chi is also Shaolin.
SS the Shaolin Temples encompassed much more than you might know and though I am no scholar of the Shaolin Temples even I can see the connection. KC

[kwaichang]

I address the Tai Chi statement

T'ai Chi Ch'uan is a Taoist internal martial art. One account of the history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan credits its development to the Taoist immortal Chang San-feng, who is said to have drawn the inspiration for the art by watching a fight between an snake and an aggressive eagle. Chang San-feng was reportedly a master of Shaolin Kung Fu who reached an extraordinary level of cultivation through Taoist internal practices. Another account of the history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan is that many different Kung Fu masters developed it over a long period of time; as a synthesis of internal meditation and martial technique. Either way, the written history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan goes back about 300 years and it was not until the turn of the 20th century that it was introduced to the general public.

There you go SS. I suggest you do your research. KC

[sean_stonehart]

...blah blah blah blah blah ....
It is only Logical that it had such wide impact that the Shaolin would have incorporated it as well.

Logic doesn't say "Hua To's method were incorporated in...." anywhere. Logic is not always fact. Don't confuse the two.



The Chen village is quite close to the Shaolin Temple and it is rumored the other styles came from it. The Shaolin temple teaches a Tai Chi as well thus Tai Chi is also Shaolin.

It's 60km +/- as the crow flies. Been there... to both them... the Chen family art prior to the development was Pao Chui... a Shaolin based art. What did I say earlier that made you think I didn't make reference to it...



SS the Shaolin Temples encompassed much more than you might know and though I am no scholar of the Shaolin Temples even I can see the connection. KC

Again... did I say there was no connection between Chen Taiji & Shaolin? I don't believe I did.

[sean_stonehart]

I address the Tai Chi statement

T'ai Chi Ch'uan is a Taoist internal martial art. One account of the history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan credits its development to the Taoist immortal Chang San-feng, who is said to have drawn the inspiration for the art by watching a fight between an snake and an aggressive eagle. Chang San-feng was reportedly a master of Shaolin Kung Fu who reached an extraordinary level of cultivation through Taoist internal practices. Another account of the history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan is that many different Kung Fu masters developed it over a long period of time; as a synthesis of internal meditation and martial technique. Either way, the written history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan goes back about 300 years and it was not until the turn of the 20th century that it was introduced to the general public.

There you go SS. I suggest you do your research. KC


Research on what? I don't see where you've slapped me with anything new & the reported origins of an unconfirmed source of taiji is more than just a little humorous.

I really suggest you remove your head from the collective ostrich hole so many SD people bury themselves in & look around. I've done my research for the past "X" years & continue to do so. I've been to ground zero, met people outside the village who trained there & talked with them.

[Shaolin Wookie]

He is a very smart man. He holds college dgrees in 7 different fields, he is a doctor, and a practicing pharmacist.

Here's the question: have you seen the diplomas or tested him on his fields?

These kinds of statements are generally bull****. Nobody in his right mind would spend the kind of money it would take to get 7 Bachelor's, and however many doctorates he needs. Plus, he'd have spent so much time in school his martial arts must surely suck.

I took more than full-time classloads (5 of those 10 semesters working 40 hrs. w/ 20 hrs. of classes, graduating with a 3.7 GPA[ 4.0 in my subject areas]), and it still took me 5 years to get 2 degrees--going far beyond recommended classloads. So you're looking at probably, I don't know, 2 years for every other degree (since the first two years of coursework are mutually exclusive and would have been covered for his first 2 degrees in all probability. For five more Bachelor's Degrees, that's 2 years each, reaching a total of 10 years. Now, there's not a scholarship on earth that covers that kind of ridiculous achievement. I know, b/c I look for them all to diffray the costs of Grad School, and used them to diffray the costs of Undergraduate work. Not even the GI BIll or a corporate grant cover repeat degrees---there's no way to diffray those costs. So, considering it's about 2,000 dollars per semester (modest, by some standards) for tuition alone, that's 4 semesters per degree in order to graduate in 2 years with each corollary degree. That's a total of 8,000-10000 dollars per degree. So we're looking at something like 50,000 dollars for his bachelor's degrees, and that's the bare minimum at a local school--not an impressive one.

Unless he's a trust fund baby, this kind of money is hard to come by.

(I know you might not think so.....50K over a decade....but it's not just a payment of money. It costs a lot of time. This necessitates freedom of schedule).

First, you have to have the kind of job that will allow you to schedule classes in the afternoon. We're assuming he did this in 10 years. Night school would double that timespan, because you can only take a couple of classes. Now, I work 2 jobs, 7 days a week. I'm at work M-F from 4am to a little past noon. Then I drive down to GSU and I'm at school from 1pm-5:15 pm for 2 grad classes (one TUES/THURS). Then I drive up to Marietta to study martial arts for a couple of hours from 5:30 until about 9 or so. When I'm done, I go home and sleep. I study on M/W/F afternoons, and take naps. EAch night, I find some way to practice MA, whether at school or at home. On weekends, I either work 4am-4pm or 8am-4pm. This gives me barely enough money to afford grad school, MA, rent, my cheap truck, insurance for my cheap truck, a girlfriend (note, the little time [perhaps money] I have outside these activities is usually spent by her)......:D

I'm a hard worker, but I can't see myself keeping this up for more than another year. So, we're saying your teacher is working a fantastic job with flexible hours and great pay, with unlimited funding for his studies, and probably no female friend. He's practically a monk.

Besides. I got my degrees in English and Art. But I can pick up any physics or math textbook and teach myself without the aid of a teacher. Your teacher has committed the college phallusy (fallacy): he's sought achievement not for mental acuity, but for pieces of paper that declare his masculine prowess.

Now, he followed one of them through to a doctorate. Grad school=2 years if you rush through it. I'm rushing through mine, to get done in a year and a half. It's 2,000 dollars per semester for 2 classes. You have to take a total of nine. The coursework is so intensive, that 2 classes keeps you busier than any combination of the 5-6 classes I took as an undergrad. The papers are monumental, and you have to develop your thesis. By this time in my studies, I'm very well educated in English Literature, Victorian studies, and philosophy/history/lit of the Enlightenment. After the in depth analysis I've gotten through my higher level studies, would I ever spend 2,000 dollars per semester in order to re-enter an undergraduate level and receive basic instruction with students not as pledged or interested in the material as I am? Unless it's at Oxford or something, I wouldn't. Not as anything but an instructor......LOL.....

I guess what I'm saying is that this kind of dubious achievement is really tantamount to taking a frying pan and beating yourself over the head. Don't fall for it, b/c you're getting suckered.

BTW, turning back towards SD, away from MRKIII's super-genius-martial-guru, why GM The' would want to learn 7 languages when his English could use some work, go figure......LOL....but now I'm just trolling.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just ask JP---would you go back for 6 more degrees after having followed law through to a completion?

The money,
The time,
The money,
The stress,
The money............


(And this dude's talking $$$$MEDICAL$$$ school......LOL)

[cjurakpt]

wow - it's gonna hit 500, it really, really is!!!

[kwaichang]

THis could explain why SD is different than what we see today as "Shaolin"

During the Sung dynasty, Shaolin also heavily taught long staff routines, partly because they caused less bloodshed than swords, spears and knives. Chan Shi founded the Liu Ho Quan (Six Harmonies Boxing) style based on Shaolin techniques. Also, in 1103AD, a famous general, Yui Fei, brought his soldiers to Shaolin to exchange techniques. He also invented his own forms of boxing, such as Yue San Shou and Yu Chia Quan, Eagle Claw, Nine Way Mandarin Duck Continuous Kicks, among others. It is also during the Sung period that the Xing I (mind boxing) style was invented by combining the Taoist five elements theory with 12 animal-imitating boxing techniques and Shaolin soon taught their own versions of all these routines.
Sometimes during the Sung dynasty, secret societies began to be formed, such as the White Lotus of North and West China. Members began to frequent the Shaolin temple and used its cover for clandestine operations. Such people helped to make martial arts flourish at Shaolin. Many styles of Shaolin-derived boxing were soon developed through Northern China as non-monks who studied at Shaolin left and travelled, sharing what they learned, and developing their own routines and styles (such as Mi-Tsung, Tung Bei, Duan Quan, Duan Dah, and Pao Choi). During the Sung period, Fu Ju, then Abbot of Shaolin, invited experts in 18 martial arts schools to exchange skills with those of Shaolin They stayed three years and wrote the Shaolin Boxing Manual, describing 280 routines (this manual helped Emperor Sun Tai Zu thoroughly master what he had learned at Shaolin).


By the later Sung period, various warlords endangered the countryside and they fought the Sung Emperor for power. In 1279, in the midst of China's inner quarrels, the Mongols invaded China and started the Yuan dynasty, which lasted until 1368AD. To cope with the dangerous times, Shaolin fighting techniques became more of a hard style that primarily used speed, aggressiveness and power, It began to emphasize economy of technique and promoted defence through first strike offence power blows. It was extremely effective for its time, but it was not as subtle as earlier Shaolin Quan. Also, it was not as perfected as later versions of Shaolin Quan; it did not resemble modern Shaolin Kung fu neither in execution nor in philosophy. During the thirteenth century, this type of Shaolin boxing that the monks developed exemplified early kung fu. About 300 forms (170 empty hand and 130 weapons routines) were developed from the original 18 Lohan form. The well-known Shaolin Jin Gang style was developed at this time seeking to preserve the original elements of Shaolin Quan.
After violent nationalist revolts, the Mongols were defeated; Chu Yuan Chan, a Buddhist monk, founded the beloved Ming dynasty, which lasted from 1368-1644AD. During this time, many changes occurred in Shaolin's fighting methods, altering its course for the better. By the Ming dynasty, Shaolin style kung fu was based on techniques embedded in the 18 Lohan styles and forms. But, its execution over the past two centuries had lost its softer, internal properties as it constantly mixed with outsiders and became entwined with military politics. (The Shoalin monks also collected outside styles and routines and taught these there as well). Thus, Shaolin Quan Fa had become less fluid and circular and more rigid and linear, relying on feats of strength and body conditioning for results. It started to be reliant on brute strength, losing its original grace and agility.
KC:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's what I want to know:

Do you guys consider SD material to be basic or complicated at a fundamental level?

I've been toying with my long staff form, 2 bo-length forms, the cane form, and sections of a spear form---there's a lot of complicated stuff going on in those forms--tons of techniques......perhaps more than I see going on in most CMA forms. There are constant grip changes, variations on spins, parries, etc.....but then I see certain CMA forms, and it's basically shaking a stick around, slapping the ground, striking a pose......

What's your opinions? I notice this a lot in CMA weapons forms-especially staff ones. They're often more impressive looking than they are useful looking. One of my favorite CMA staff routines is the usual Monkey King one----but it's basically just imitating a monkey, spinning a staff, posing on the staff, rolling on the ground---but no techniques at all--just flair.

Your observations?

[MasterKiller]

LOL at KC's cut-and-paste fu.

How about you also link to the source site? Sounds like some self-promoting history there


From the 8th to the 15th centuries, no extant source documents Shaolin participation in combat; then suddenly, the 16th and 17th centuries see at least forty extant sources attest that, not only did monks of Shaolin practice martial arts, but martial practice had become such an integral element of Shaolin monastic life that the monks felt the need to justify it by creating new Buddhist lore.[4]References to Shaolin martial arts appear in various literary genres of the late Ming: the epitaphs of Shaolin warrior monks, martial-arts manuals, military encyclopedias, historical writings, travelogues, fiction, and even poetry.[4]

These sources, in contrast to those from the Tang Dynasty period, refer to Shaolin methods of combat unarmed, with the spear, and with the weapon that was the forte of the Shaolin monks and for which they had become famous—the staff.[4][3] By the mid-16th century military experts from all over Ming China were travelling to Shaolin to study its fighting techniques.

Around 1560 Yú Dàyóu travelled to Shaolin Monastery to see for himself its monks' fighting techniques, but found them disappointing. Yú returned to the south with two monks, Zongqing and Pucong, whom he taught the use of the staff over the next three years, after which Zongqing and Pucong returned to Shaolin Monastery and taught their brother monks what they had learned. Martial arts historian Tang Hao traced the Shaolin staff style Five Tigers Interception to Yú's teachings.

The earliest extant manual on Shaolin Kung Fu, the Exposition of the Original Shaolin Staff Method[14] was written around 1610 and published in 1621 from what its author Chéng Zōngyóu learned during a more than ten year stay at the monastery.

Conditions of lawlessness in Henan—where the Shaolin Monastery is located—and surrounding provinces during the late Ming Dynasty and all of the Qing Dynasty contributed to the development of martial arts. Meir Shahar lists the martial arts T'ai Chi Ch'üan, Chang Family Boxing, Bāguàquán, Xíngyìquán and Bājíquán as originating from this region and this time period.[4]


Perhaps, even more telling....


Ever since 1669, when Huang Zongxi first described Chinese martial arts in terms of a Shaolin or "external" school versus a Wudang or "internal" school,[1] "Shaolin" has been used as a synonym for "external" Chinese martial arts regardless of whether or not the particular style in question has any connection to the Shaolin Monastery. In 1784 the Boxing Classic: Essential Boxing Methods[2] made the earliest extant reference to the Shaolin Monastery as Chinese boxing's place of origin.[3]

Since the beginning of the 17th century, the Shaolin Monastery garnered such fame that many martial artists have capitalized on its name by claiming possession of the original, authentic Shaolin teachings.[4]

[kwaichang]

I will try to find it for you I did not cut and paste it was written that way it just sort of caught my attention as it addressed the different form thing everyone talks about. Coming soon. if I find it. KC

[kwaichang]

http://www.shaolin-society.co.uk/History_of_Gung-Fu/Shaolin/shaolin.php
there you go. KC

[Mano Mano]

THis could explain why SD is different than what we see today as "Shaolin"

During the Sung dynasty, Shaolin also heavily taught long staff routines, partly because they caused less bloodshed than swords, spears and knives. Chan Shi founded the Liu Ho Quan (Six Harmonies Boxing) style based on Shaolin techniques. Also, in 1103AD, a famous general, Yui Fei, brought his soldiers to Shaolin to exchange techniques. He also invented his own forms of boxing, such as Yue San Shou and Yu Chia Quan, Eagle Claw, Nine Way Mandarin Duck Continuous Kicks, among others. It is also during the Sung period that the Xing I (mind boxing) style was invented by combining the Taoist five elements theory with 12 animal-imitating boxing techniques and Shaolin soon taught their own versions of all these routines.
Sometimes during the Sung dynasty, secret societies began to be formed, such as the White Lotus of North and West China. Members began to frequent the Shaolin temple and used its cover for clandestine operations. Such people helped to make martial arts flourish at Shaolin. Many styles of Shaolin-derived boxing were soon developed through Northern China as non-monks who studied at Shaolin left and travelled, sharing what they learned, and developing their own routines and styles (such as Mi-Tsung, Tung Bei, Duan Quan, Duan Dah, and Pao Choi). During the Sung period, Fu Ju, then Abbot of Shaolin, invited experts in 18 martial arts schools to exchange skills with those of Shaolin They stayed three years and wrote the Shaolin Boxing Manual, describing 280 routines (this manual helped Emperor Sun Tai Zu thoroughly master what he had learned at Shaolin).


By the later Sung period, various warlords endangered the countryside and they fought the Sung Emperor for power. In 1279, in the midst of China's inner quarrels, the Mongols invaded China and started the Yuan dynasty, which lasted until 1368AD. To cope with the dangerous times, Shaolin fighting techniques became more of a hard style that primarily used speed, aggressiveness and power, It began to emphasize economy of technique and promoted defence through first strike offence power blows. It was extremely effective for its time, but it was not as subtle as earlier Shaolin Quan. Also, it was not as perfected as later versions of Shaolin Quan; it did not resemble modern Shaolin Kung fu neither in execution nor in philosophy. During the thirteenth century, this type of Shaolin boxing that the monks developed exemplified early kung fu. About 300 forms (170 empty hand and 130 weapons routines) were developed from the original 18 Lohan form. The well-known Shaolin Jin Gang style was developed at this time seeking to preserve the original elements of Shaolin Quan.
After violent nationalist revolts, the Mongols were defeated; Chu Yuan Chan, a Buddhist monk, founded the beloved Ming dynasty, which lasted from 1368-1644AD. During this time, many changes occurred in Shaolin's fighting methods, altering its course for the better. By the Ming dynasty, Shaolin style kung fu was based on techniques embedded in the 18 Lohan styles and forms. But, its execution over the past two centuries had lost its softer, internal properties as it constantly mixed with outsiders and became entwined with military politics. (The Shoalin monks also collected outside styles and routines and taught these there as well). Thus, Shaolin Quan Fa had become less fluid and circular and more rigid and linear, relying on feats of strength and body conditioning for results. It started to be reliant on brute strength, losing its original grace and agility.


There are other fairy tales out there such as you forgot to mention the hero's of the marsh.

[Shaolin Wookie]

http://www.shaolin-society.co.uk/Instructors/associate.php

JONIN Sato Nwemesu (look at pic)

Um, KC, I think you're getting your history from John Takeshi/Mega-Foot.:(


Man, Equestrian Tai Chi does sound interesting, doesn't it?

Seriously though, he makes a point about the horse stance--leg strength = stability on horseback/ground. Makes you think about how your horse stances occur on the ground in weapons forms, and how they might have functioned as horseback techniques.

[MasterKiller]

No kidding.

Pick your resources better, bro.

[sean_stonehart]

You've got to be kidding?!?!?!?!!?!:eek::eek::eek:

You're quoting from a "resource" that has a ninja "jonin"... oh Christ please. Jonin... that's an antiquated term that has no credibility in JMA.

Please... keep picking sources like that. It shows exactly how far in the ground your head is.

[kwaichang]

Perhaps you would rather have my fist up your fill in the blank KC

[tattooedmonk]

:eek: 1 more page to go.........

[Citong Shifu]

THis could explain why SD is different than what we see today as "Shaolin"

During the Sung dynasty, Shaolin also heavily taught long staff routines, partly because they caused less bloodshed than swords, spears and knives. Chan Shi founded the Liu Ho Quan (Six Harmonies Boxing) style based on Shaolin techniques. Also, in 1103AD, a famous general, Yui Fei, brought his soldiers to Shaolin to exchange techniques. He also invented his own forms of boxing, such as Yue San Shou and Yu Chia Quan, Eagle Claw, Nine Way Mandarin Duck Continuous Kicks, among others. It is also during the Sung period that the Xing I (mind boxing) style was invented by combining the Taoist five elements theory with 12 animal-imitating boxing techniques and Shaolin soon taught their own versions of all these routines.
Sometimes during the Sung dynasty, secret societies began to be formed, such as the White Lotus of North and West China. Members began to frequent the Shaolin temple and used its cover for clandestine operations. Such people helped to make martial arts flourish at Shaolin. Many styles of Shaolin-derived boxing were soon developed through Northern China as non-monks who studied at Shaolin left and travelled, sharing what they learned, and developing their own routines and styles (such as Mi-Tsung, Tung Bei, Duan Quan, Duan Dah, and Pao Choi). During the Sung period, Fu Ju, then Abbot of Shaolin, invited experts in 18 martial arts schools to exchange skills with those of Shaolin They stayed three years and wrote the Shaolin Boxing Manual, describing 280 routines (this manual helped Emperor Sun Tai Zu thoroughly master what he had learned at Shaolin).


By the later Sung period, various warlords endangered the countryside and they fought the Sung Emperor for power. In 1279, in the midst of China's inner quarrels, the Mongols invaded China and started the Yuan dynasty, which lasted until 1368AD. To cope with the dangerous times, Shaolin fighting techniques became more of a hard style that primarily used speed, aggressiveness and power, It began to emphasize economy of technique and promoted defence through first strike offence power blows. It was extremely effective for its time, but it was not as subtle as earlier Shaolin Quan. Also, it was not as perfected as later versions of Shaolin Quan; it did not resemble modern Shaolin Kung fu neither in execution nor in philosophy. During the thirteenth century, this type of Shaolin boxing that the monks developed exemplified early kung fu. About 300 forms (170 empty hand and 130 weapons routines) were developed from the original 18 Lohan form. The well-known Shaolin Jin Gang style was developed at this time seeking to preserve the original elements of Shaolin Quan.
After violent nationalist revolts, the Mongols were defeated; Chu Yuan Chan, a Buddhist monk, founded the beloved Ming dynasty, which lasted from 1368-1644AD. During this time, many changes occurred in Shaolin's fighting methods, altering its course for the better. By the Ming dynasty, Shaolin style kung fu was based on techniques embedded in the 18 Lohan styles and forms. But, its execution over the past two centuries had lost its softer, internal properties as it constantly mixed with outsiders and became entwined with military politics. (The Shoalin monks also collected outside styles and routines and taught these there as well). Thus, Shaolin Quan Fa had become less fluid and circular and more rigid and linear, relying on feats of strength and body conditioning for results. It started to be reliant on brute strength, losing its original grace and agility.
KC:)


"It started to be reliant on brute strength, losing its original grace and agility"

Well, I can tell you that this was and is not true at all! Far from it! I dont dispute that you found this somewhere on the internet, but what a bunch of crap... I will agree that internal / external conditioning was a big deal and was trained just as hard as their fighting. Clashing with another fighter, well, this is still a principle, but "only" if you know your skill is superior. The rest, dont right bogus.... I'm not going to dispute this through another 100 pages. It is what it is...

Take care.
CS

[sean_stonehart]

Perhaps you would rather have my fist up your fill in the blank KC

Are you threatening me? Pure & simple, yes or no.

[Yao Sing]

Dude, he likes you. Talking about fisting and making you an offer like that, totally gay.

Come on 500!

[kungfujunky]

Are you threatening me? Pure & simple, yes or no.

lol

you talk so horribly rude to him how else is he to respond?

internet fu!

woohoo

[BM2]

Sean, for whatever reason(s) you seem to be fancinated with coming on here to enlighten everyone. Your opinions of M. Sin are the only ones that I really take issue with when you accuse him of getting DVDs on the China trips. If you have something to back it up then do it, otherwise you come off sounding like an azz. Just me, I wouldn't post something accusing someone whom I do not care for of something if I couldn't back it up.

[sean_stonehart]

lol

you talk so horribly rude to him how else is he to respond?

internet fu!

woohoo

Rude? No... not even close

Abrupt? Yeah probably by any definition

Abraisive? Yeah most likely

In order? For him... yeah.

There's been close to if not 500 pages & thousands of posts on this along with a couple of emails and he refuses to even subscribe to the notions that SD is not all it says it is or is made out to be.

Other SD players, while maintaining the loyalty to SD & ST respectively & respectably, even concede some of these opinions and facts brought forward by these posts on this thread. His last attempt at "proof" even brought a fellow SD-er out as calling BS on his "source".

If everybody in the whole wide world side "the sky is blue, don't you think", he'd sit there going "nah... it's red because I was told so & have seen it for myself" when he looks at the exact same sky as everybody else.

I have no intention or desire to "convert" anybody away from SD. I bring a degree of exposure to other arts to the table to my SD friends & many hours of research and truth seeking as well. I present what I know as I know it as I was exposed to & found it.

If a SDer sees as it is & goes "gee... maybe things aren't alright" & moves on, so be it. If not, so be it. But for the sake of common sense don't say "we (SD) are right you are not" when example on example has been given on missing & incorrect training techniques for specific sets that SD has appropriated & laid claim to in published writing (which is also wrong) because the foundation in generally recognized & accepted CMAs isn't there.

Go 500!!!

[sean_stonehart]

Sean, for whatever reason(s) you seem to be fancinated with coming on here to enlighten everyone. Your opinions of M. Sin are the only ones that I really take issue with when you accuse him of getting DVDs on the China trips. If you have something to back it up then do it, otherwise you come off sounding like an azz. Just me, I wouldn't post something accusing someone whom I do not care for of something if I couldn't back it up.

Dude... I never once said or claimed he did.

I merely pointed out the coincidence of it all.

[BM2]

Nothing is perfect, surely you know that. I really doubt that only a few even know what is meant by the kool-aid comments. I think it occured around '78.
What is real?
What really is at the root of your discontent? Just wondering.

[BM2]

Oh I'm sorry He Who Knows Everything Is Everything SD.

I do know it's a Chang Quan set. I do know it's not from the South where SD claims roots from Fujian. I do know it wasn't taught until recent history like many other things in SD after a couple of China trips & new CDs were available to the public like Mulan Fans from Mulan Quan (which isn't even a freaking TCMA for Crissakes), Xingyi Weaponry, Bagua Weaponry...

So I'll give JP's suggestion a go & see what I can find on it for you since apparently you're not willing to look outside the SD box to see where it came from.

OK, no, I think you heavily implied.

[sean_stonehart]

Nothing is perfect, surely you know that. I really doubt that only a few even know what is meant by the kool-aid comments. I think it occured around '78.
What is real?
What really is at the root of your discontent? Just wondering.

I think it was 78 or so. Maybe 77... I was in elementary school when I remember hearing about it.

The root of my discontentment?? Honesty, integrety, factual information etc... on what is being taught...

Never once have I said it didn't work, wasn't effective or anything of the like. I've never take shots at the people & their ability to use what's been taught to them. I've said & maintained it is not what it is professed to be.

[sean_stonehart]

OK, no, I think you heavily implied.

Yeah ... maybe it is, but strictly speaking I never said it nor would I since I never witnessed such an event or occurance or was involved. That would be stupid to do such a thing.

[kwaichang]

Man you are a Joke I dont know you but I have only spokem with you maybe once E Mail. I still wait for you to prove your point. My opinion is you couldnt take the training and quit. If you cant take it what is your point then ? You are rude and disrespectful. As far as admitting something You show some proof and I will. You listed some things that arent Shaolin I showed you how they were. You act like a baby and sull up if you are proven wrong. Get a Job make something of your self. KC

[BM2]

Yeah ... maybe it is, but strictly speaking I never said it nor would I since I never witnessed such an event or occurance or was involved. That would be stupid to do such a thing.

Dude, that wasn't the first time. I didn't want to go through 499 pages to find more of it.
I am in no way saying you left for the wrong reasons, I don't know anything about you other than meeting once. Just don't care for you coming on here to have the reader think that you, as a former SDer, are implying something that I think is offensive. Nothing more or less.

[sean_stonehart]

Man you are a Joke I dont know you but I have only spokem with you maybe once E Mail. I still wait for you to prove your point. My opinion is you couldnt take the training and quit. If you cant take it what is your point then ? You are rude and disrespectful. As far as admitting something You show some proof and I will. You listed some things that arent Shaolin I showed you how they were. You act like a baby and sull up if you are proven wrong. Get a Job make something of your self. KC

Yeah ok... as an example



How is

address the Tai Chi statement

T'ai Chi Ch'uan is a Taoist internal martial art. One account of the history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan credits its development to the Taoist immortal Chang San-feng, who is said to have drawn the inspiration for the art by watching a fight between an snake and an aggressive eagle. Chang San-feng was reportedly a master of Shaolin Kung Fu who reached an extraordinary level of cultivation through Taoist internal practices. Another account of the history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan is that many different Kung Fu masters developed it over a long period of time; as a synthesis of internal meditation and martial technique. Either way, the written history of T'ai Chi Ch'uan goes back about 300 years and it was not until the turn of the 20th century that it was introduced to the general public.



proving taiji is a Shaolin art?

Right... Chang San-feng... the legendary teacher of the Chen family.

Tell you what... show me three things as undisputed fact. Show directly where & I'll go away...

Show me where

Tiger Crane came from the "Kwangtung Temple"
Zha Quan came from the "Kwangtung Temple"
"Classical" Bagua Zhang came from the "Wu Tang Temple"


BTW... the list of styles can be found... http://www.ohioshaolindo.com/ShaolinMaterial.htm

Show me where the Tiger Crane Duet & Zha Quan came directly from with no outside influence or development the "Kwangtung Temple" and the "Classical" bagua done at 1st black came directly from with no outside influence or development the "Wu Tang Temple".

Direct from the temples as they are & out to the populus... no stop overs, no secondary development, anything...

The ball is in your court.

[sean_stonehart]

Dude, that wasn't the first time. I didn't want to go through 499 pages to find more of it.
I am in no way saying you left for the wrong reasons, I don't know anything about you other than meeting once. Just don't care for you coming on here to have the reader think that you, as a former SDer, are implying something that I think is offensive. Nothing more or less.

BM2... sorry to offend. It wasn't intended as such directly as such, but maybe I was hoping people would use it as a "stop & pause" moment.

It's not a big deal. There's more forms swapping between CMAs than there is drugs for money, but the deal is most CMA people don't misconstrue (intentionally or not) where it came from or how.

If it weren't for forms swapping, we'd be short a lot of stuff in the CMA world. But generally there was also a common thread found between people who were swapping things. A common training background so that somebody had been doing a similar style wouldn't loose what the form imparted. Kinda like a GMC & Chevy. Different labels, but mostly the same thing.

[Yao Sing]

I heard Sin The recently spent a few weeks in Puerto Rico. You guys should be seeing a Chupacabra set sometime in the next 6 months. :D

[kwaichang]

Key in Hung Gar in Google.

According to legend, Master Gee See,a monk of the Fukien Shaolin Temple, taught Hung the Shaolin Tiger Style. Hung being a curious man, always sought to improve his skills. He added to his Tiger Style elements from his wife's White Crane system, movements from the Dragon, Snake, and Leopard forms, and techniques from the Five Elements Fist.He modified and expanded his Tiger Style to develop a system better balanced in long- and short-range application,a system which better reflected his own character and skills -- Hung Gar.

Tiger Crane is sometime known as Hung Gar. BTW there is no definitive proof of anything except maybe Math. Every thing seems to be read as Legend History , which is his story ,one account, or Theory. So you ask too much. Also in SD we trace our origins to 6 shaolin temples not 1 and we do not say it was an art indigenous to the temples some were brought in by warriors others were taught and left the temple at some point and taught in the public arena. If you knew and talked to GMS you would know this. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Man you are a Joke ... My opinion is you couldnt take the training and quit. If you cant take it what is your point then ? You are rude and disrespectful.

Alright, KC. Take it easy dude. Why you in such a huff anyways, when you've seen the light?:D

Sean has his opinions. If he couldn't take the training and quit, why'd he take the training elsewhere?:confused:

Look, who cares if someone says GM Sin learned from a DVD? Hahaha......I have like 5-6 DVD's from SD, two of them featuring GM Sin---breaking down our festival forms by sections. I can tell you, although I learned the postures in a day, the strikes, and the moves, I didn't do them correctly or fluently. But I'm good at a couple of those forms now---so did I learn by DVD? Did you?:eek:

As for the issue of the Mulan fans.......dude, it's fans......who cares where he got them from? The question is, where can we hide them to get rid of them?


Fans are gay.......:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

I still don't know why SD says the temples were connected. We know certain ones had Taoist monks, and others had Buddhist ones, with Shaolin at Henan/Fukien. Is SD claiming that they were all Shao-lin, or all martial? If it's the former, they're wrong. If it's the latter, they're kind of right. But even then, they're different martial arts.....so they're still kind of wrong.

For instance, if we use the college metaphor for Shaolin like SD uses, you could not, under those circumstances, enter as a transient student or a transfer at Wu-Tang (clan ain't nuthin' to **** wit') if you studied at Henan. first off, it's a different religion with a different order of monks, with a different philosophy, geography, culture, history, hairstyle, etc.......

So what's the deal?

For the sake of martial arts, sure, Tai Chi might have been practiced at Shaolin by some students, learned from outsiders. But that doesn't make it Shaolin.

[kwaichang]

If it was taught at the Shaolin Temple then it is SHAOLIN. It may not be from the temple but few things were from the temple except CHAN which came from India KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Sure, if you want to call the cheeseburger you can get at on a Chinese restaurant's kid menu Chinese food.

[kwaichang]

The Pizza Pie as we know it is not from Italy it was developed in the US in New York by 2 guys way back when, is it Italian or American ???
The Shaolin taught today Wah Lum for example traces its lineage to the Shaolin Temple. If this is true then it too is Shaolin even though I doubt it looks the same as when or if it were trained in the temple.
Shaolin Do means Way of Shaolin not Indeginous to Shaolin. That is where the debate begins. I feel as do others that if it was taught in the Temple then it is Shaolin as the Monks or who ever changed the original style and cultivated it from there.
There are few PURE styles from the Shaolin Temple/ Monastery and those that were are forever changed by time. Unfortunate but true. So every style that is from Shaolin, SD, what ever is not true Shaolin under these circumstances and by your definition. KC

[kwaichang]

It amazes me how so many can come on here and speak with so much authority about what they know so little about. If you werent there you dont know. It is all speculation based on "his story" Whole lota egos goin on. KC
anyone want to go for 1000.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It amazes me how so many can come on here and speak with so much authority about what they know so little about. If you werent there you dont know.

Precisely. And you weren't there, and neither was GM The', and neither was GGM Ie Chang Ming......or was he?

Well anyways, neither were you, and neither was GM The'.

Here's an example from a subject that touches closer to some hearts:

Christmas is not the day of Christ's birth. It was a pagan holiday the Christian church hijacked, a day on which the pagans (especially Mithraic mystery cults/Zoroastrians) marked the winter solstice. Curiously, Mithras was also the son of a virgin, his birth was foretold by a star, shepherds attended his birth, etc.

So, are you guys willing to concede that Christianity includes Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, and multitudes of older, pagan cultic mythos in its own canon, and in fact encompasses the pagan orders of worship it eviscerates? That Mithraism is Christianity? That Christianity is Zoroastrianism?

This is the same logic you uphold. The question is, do you dare hold it for all of its logical ramifications?

So long as there is no irrefutable evidence, it is our responsibility to debate them, yes, and sometimes ad nauseum. See, then you take the most common elements of the stories, weigh them against each other, weigh them against Chinese history, legend, and folklore, weigh them against the large pool of ideas, and select what is simple, concise, and believable. It's not truth, but it's an approximation.

Honestly, SD doesn't gel very well compared to many arts. Hence the reason it is singled out so often. And rightly so.

I employ the same processes in all the research I do for term papers and my thesis. If I didn't, I'd be an idiot, and I'd cite from untrustworthy sources, and I'd be called an idiot.

Many SD info sources (websites, the Do book) are poorly referenced....meaning, we're getting hearsay, not research.

[kwaichang]

You seem to be an athiest I am not going to debate religion with you as you are of course a logic based person and want "proof". I dont have time for that but you seem to bash and get on your anti religion soap box often. However because I celebrate Christs BDay on Dec 25th does not mean I believe or practice the other. And what does this have to do with Martial Arts you didnt even address my post prior to that one. I would believe GMT long before you or these other jokers on here when he says something with dates etc I research it and other than a date like 1240 was 1243 there are no faul;t in what he says historically. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

SD does have its value. Sometimes its history is well-founded, sometimes it's not. But to be honest, if they didn't offer the Eight Immortals Drunken styles (which nobody offers in any state bordering GA), I'd probably have left it be on intellectual grounds and gone elsewhere to study something else. LOL.....not that it's that big a deal......but sometimes it is, because of the principle. But I'm willing to compromise, to get what I want.

[kwaichang]

SW since you work for the Gov or Big brother I will forgive you for being brain washed. But I will disregard any of your ststements about SD since you have trained in it for only 2 years. Per your references. . KC

[kwaichang]

Shaolin Temples and their Associated Fighting Systems

天下武功出少林

This is from the web site posted by SS it does not say from the temples does it ??? . KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

You seem to be an athiest I am not going to debate religion with you as you are of course a logic based person and want "proof".

True, I want proof. I want proof that my beef isn't rat meat, because rat meat is gross and can contain diseases; I want proof that it's been inspected closely, so I don't catch E. Coli and die. I want proof because if I don't, I am liable to be the unwitting tool of manipulative minds, who are willing to exploit me.

And yes, I am a logic-based person, b/c logic is the basis of human understanding. It's why, for instance, I don't jump into lions' dens to pet the pretty lion cubs when the lioness is growling at me, showing me her pretty teeth, which I want to brush because she has some blood on them, and could use a floss because of hte brain fragments stuck into her teeth, which got there when my best bud jumped into the lion's den a couple minutes ahead of me and called out, as he vaulted the railing: "Hey, those cubs are cute! I'm going to go pet one!"


I dont have time for that but you seem to bash and get on your anti religion soap box often. However because I celebrate Christs BDay on Dec 25th does not mean I believe or practice the other. And what does this have to do with Martial Arts you didnt even address my post prior to that one.

I'm asking you to draw a parallel. Christ, I didn't think I'd have to explicitly state that.

Here I've drafted an argument of principle. I'm appealing to principle, because it's something that appeals to us. If we take a stance on an issue b/c of principle, and conclude on a result because of that principle, and then we take a stance on anotehr issue with that same principle in mind, and then completely reverse our decision because it was convenient for us----that's HYPOCRISY!

I know religion is a touchy issue. That's why I used the principle in that context. It will force from you your inmost thought, and display your hypocrisy or your honesty, or at least force you to re-evaluate the principle of logic you have displayed, which you haven't.

I was being a little more subtle, but if you want me to be an ******* about it, I will be an ******* about it.

See, KC: you're not presenting anything but bias, personal convenience, and unthinking adherence to one source of information.

Those aren't the breeding grounds of intelligent discourse, if you catch my drift.


I would believe GMT long before you or these other jokers on here when he says something with dates etc I research it and other than a date like 1240 was 1243 there are no faul;t in what he says historically. KC

That's not an issue.

[Shaolin Wookie]

SW since you work for the Gov or Big brother I will forgive you for being brain washed. But I will disregard any of your ststements about SD since you have trained in it for only 2 years. Per your references. . KC

I also work for UPS FReight Monday - Friday as a dockworker (driving a forklift, and stacking heavy **** 9 hours a day). I'm also a graduate student at Georgia State University, and a part-time communications officer (not quite brainwashing material) :rolleyes: with the GBI. Jobs pay for school; and they give me the hours I need to study and attend classes, and pay for rent. I'd be a male stripper, if the hours/pay were good. But I don't like speedos and g-strings either. And I'm allergic to gay stuff.

[Yao Sing]

The Shaolin taught today Wah Lum for example traces its lineage to the Shaolin Temple.


It amazes me how so many can come on here and speak with so much authority about what they know so little about.

That second quote is funny following the first one.

Correction: Wah Lum is not Shaolin. Wah Lum does not trace it's lineage back to the Shaolin Temple, it traces back to the Hualin Temple. It's unknown AFAIK what connection, if any, it had to Shaolin. There is no Shaolin in the Wah Lum system.

The Tan Tui in Wah Lum comes from the family style of Lee Kwan Shan and may or may not have come from Shaolin. Unfortunately not a whole lot of the history is known.

[kwaichang]

Dont talk principle to me when you say this.

I'd probably have left it be on intellectual grounds and gone elsewhere to study something else. LOL.....not that it's that big a deal......but sometimes it is, because of the principle. But I'm willing to compromise, to get what I want.

People who compromise to get what they want and arent willing to take the test of fire have little principle. It takes no logic to not pet a cub when your lover , is that what you meant // ?? just got eaten by a lion. KC Some things defy Logic. Explain True Love or true Dedication

[kwaichang]

Yao Sing , not what I was told by a practioner at the Orlando School when I met Chan Poi ??

Master Pui Chan introduced the Wah Lum System to the United States and is currently the only master in the U.S. teaching this system. He is the 6th generation successor of the Northern Praying Mantis System and 33rd generation successor of the Shaolin Temple, China. In addition to being a disciple of Grandmaster Lee Kwan Shan, he has studied under several masters of the style. Having given many exciting demonstrations throughout the United States, appearing on television, this is from his web site. KC

[Yao Sing]

If it was taught at the Shaolin Temple then it is SHAOLIN. It may not be from the temple but few things were from the temple except CHAN which came from India KC

If CHAN came from India then it didn't come from Shaolin. Shaolin absorbed a lot of arts but they originated elsewhere. Because of that you can't say a certain style came from Shaolin unless you have direct links.

The Tan Tui in Wah Lum is a good example. Since it was LKS's family style it could have taken a path that did not invovle Shaolin at all.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yao Sing , not what I was told by a practioner at the Orlando School when I met Chan Poi ?? KC

KC, I'm rubbing my temples and getting a headache.

It's hearsay, dude. It's not a blanket statement that covers the Wah Lum community. It's one dude's opinion, probably based on what someone told him, so in that case, it's hearsay compounded by hearsay.

[kwaichang]

See last post by me about Wah Lum ???? why would Chan Poi include the 33rd gen thing HUmmmmmm could it be Marketing or perhaps OH NO A LIE surely not. KC

[kwaichang]

Thank you Yao you proved my point. THank You KC
Now put posts last 2 pages togethor Wah Lum History From or related to Shaolin . KC Its all Semantics Like fixed or repaired if it is repaired its not fixed.

[Yao Sing]

Yao Sing , not what I was told by a practioner at the Orlando School when I met Chan Poi ??

Master Pui Chan introduced the Wah Lum System to the United States and is currently the only master in the U.S. teaching this system. He is the 6th generation successor of the Northern Praying Mantis System and 33rd generation successor of the Shaolin Temple, China. In addition to being a disciple of Grandmaster Lee Kwan Shan, he has studied under several masters of the style. Having given many exciting demonstrations throughout the United States, appearing on television, this is from his web site. KC

I was going to address that in my post figuring it would come up but I didn't. I don't know who told you there was a direct link to Shaolin but I never saw or heard that claim in the 15 years I spent with Master Chan Pui at the Temple in Orlando. I believe the 33rd generation successor of the Shaolin Temple is more of an honorary title for his dedication to the Chinese Martial Arts.

He was 'evaluated' at Shaolin by the monks and based on his knowledge and abilities in CMA was awarded that 'title'. I could be wrong but like I said I haven't seen or heard any claims of direct lineage to Shaolin and there are no claims of teaching Shaolin in the Wah Lum system.

[Yao Sing]

See last post by me about Wah Lum ???? why would Chan Poi include the 33rd gen thing HUmmmmmm could it be Marketing or perhaps OH NO A LIE surely not. KC

It's not a lie and yes it's good marketing since almost everyone has heard of Shaolin Temple. So, why would he include it? Probably because it's true and generates students.

If you listed your accomplishments would you neglect to add something as impressive as that?


Thank you Yao you proved my point. THank You KC
Now put posts last 2 pages togethor Wah Lum History From or related to Shaolin . KC Its all Semantics Like fixed or repaired if it is repaired its not fixed.

????? Lost me a bit there but if I proved your point then great. My intent was to correct you on the claim that Wah Lum traces it's lineage back to Shaolin.

Wah Lum lineages goes Chan Pui -> Lee Kwan Shan -> Wah Lum Temple Abbot Ching Yeung on the Mantis side and LKS's family on the Tan Tui side. There is no direct link to anyone on either side before that so there are no known links to Shaolin.

[kwaichang]

Then address the reason for including it on his web page is it Marketing then ??? And if so that would group him in the same group as GMT according to the posts I have read on this forum . You know a Liar and fraud and all that ???? KC
You said the history is not well known and it is on his web site and SS said its all Hearsay I have to agree so please answer the above question.

[Yao Sing]

What is your problem? Wah Lum IS NOT Shaolin even though the GM of the system was awarded the title of 33rd generation successor of Shaolin. Why do you have such a problem with that? Is it because it doesn't fit in with your warped view.

Yes it's true Chan Pui is a 33rd generation successor to Shaolin and no Wah Lum is not Shaolin or teaches Shaolin.

Since Shaolin has been trying to rebuild it's martial art image you could say it's a marketing deal for Shaolin to utilize Master Chan's high profile in the US. It's mutually beneficial.

[Yao Sing]

Then address the reason for including it on his web page is it Marketing then ??? And if so that would group him in the same group as GMT according to the posts I have read on this forum . You know a Liar and fraud and all that ???? KC

No, it's a legitimate title bestowed on him by the Shailin Temple and can be verified. There is a monument at Shaolin listing the generations and he is listed (he pointed it out to me on the 1998 trip). That still doesn't mean Wah Lum came from Shaolin.

And since when is using the truth for marketing evidence of fraud?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yes it's true Chan Pui is a 33rd generation successor to Shaolin and no Wah Lum is not Shaolin or teaches Shaolin.

So why is Chan Pui a 33rd generation successor to Shaolin? Why is Wah Lum claiming to teach Shaolin?:p:D

Just kiddin'.....

[kwaichang]

Since when is calling an art Shaolin Do and wearing a Gi and using some Japanese terms and living in Indonesia and having a hairy Great Grand Master Fraud ???? Its not so yes SD is real KC
BTW I have nothing against Wah Lum or anyone who trains in it I am just drawing some parallels.

"There is a monument at Shaolin listing the generations and he is listed (he pointed it out to me on the 1998" Hey what a coincidence we have a Monument too.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Exactly. But it's also incumbent upon us to recognize that this is used for marketing, and doesn't necessarily reflect a bonafide truth.

[sean_stonehart]

Then address the reason for including it on his web page is it Marketing then ??? And if so that would group him in the same group as GMT according to the posts I have read on this forum . You know a Liar and fraud and all that ???? KC
You said the history is not well known and it is on his web site and SS said its all Hearsay I have to agree so please answer the above question.

Where did I say anything about Wah Lum's history being hearsay?

I don't believe (could be mistaken) that I've mentioned Wah Lum until now.

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL, if you look at the past page or so, he's talking to myself and Yao Sing.

You narcissist, you.

[Yao Sing]

Since when is calling an art Shaolin Do and wearing a Gi and using some Japanese terms and living in Indonesia and having a hairy Great Grand Master Fraud ???? Its not so yes SD is real KC

Where do you see me saying that?


BTW I have nothing against Wah Lum or anyone who trains in it I am just drawing some parallels.

Same here but I think the unsubstantiated wild claims makes CMA look bad and needs to be corrected. I spend a lot of time here correcting and explaining a lot of the Wah Lum misconceptions, mostly on the NPM forum.


"There is a monument at Shaolin listing the generations and he is listed (he pointed it out to me on the 1998" Hey what a coincidence we have a Monument too.

Not the same thing. Wah Lum has a steele also but that's not the one I'm talking about. This one is a generational list made by Shaolin. Not the honorary stone erected for making a large donation.

I have a photo of the Wah Lum steele and I think I snapped a photo of the other monument with the generation list. I'll post both if I can so you can see they are 2 different stones.

[sean_stonehart]

LOL, if you look at the past page or so, he's talking to myself and Yao Sing.

Ah... I just saw me referenced & it looked like I had something to say about Wah lum...



You narcissist, you.

Nah... bigger goals in mind now... did 500 ... looking for 1k.

[kwaichang]

The bottom line is this. Sd has made claims so has Wah Lum and I am sure there are others that have also. If I wanted to research it further. The point is is why is SD the only system or group that is being crucified for doing what others are doing. ?? There is no way to prove or disprove anything because His - story is so incomplete as others have stated. So as SS said if you do not have any definitive factual proven info that is indisputable then dont say it. I think he said that, not sure who. been a long day. KC

[sean_stonehart]

The bottom line is this. Sd has made claims so has Wah Lum and I am sure there are others that have also. If I wanted to research it further. The point is is why is SD the only system or group that is being crucified for doing what others are doing. ?? There is no way to prove or disprove anything because His - story is so incomplete as others have stated. So as SS said if you do not have any definitive factual proven info that is indisputable then dont say it. I think he said that, not sure who. been a long day. KC

Nope don't recall saying it. Probably said something along those lines or with that intent, but not that.

Why is SD being crucified? Simple honesty I believe is the bottom line. More of it & less issues. But with the grandiose claims and tales along with the fervent company line of "this is the correct..." when things are blatently not (already done to death), the general populus of everybody non-SD which share the same basic training structures will tend to poke up the collective head & holler ****ty-****it on it.

But anyway... it has been a long day.

[kwaichang]

Simple honesty ? Who's ? If other systems are using the Shaolin Name for marketing and stating this or that then why havent they been crucified as well ?? I understand the doubt that exists I doubted too at 1st and really did alot of searching back in 92 when i started but fortunately for me i continued to train and learn as I feel the value comes from what can be learned and applied. I have found both in SD. I am sorry others havent. I continue to learn daily and improve "hopefully". I have heard GMT explain how certain arts are from the Shaolin Temples and or related to it and the conection is there like it or not. The dates check out the names check out and the styles etc check out. With this said there has been no definitive evidence to convince me otherwise about SD. Not even the Li Bao Shu thing. Too many loop holes. The way I see it the only partially legitimate statements made were that SD doesnt have the "flavor" and we wear Gis. and both statments prove nothing they are all just opinions and little or no fact. KC

[The Willow Sword]

the 500 page mark has been reached and passed? time to shut er down now. Thread is over. DONE. Gene Ching will now edit and compile all of this information into a comprehensive Study on the Karate arts that try to pass itself off as cma and ride the Shaolin robes to better money making schemes.

i will be the FIRST to buy it since i am included in the story:cool::D and i wont even ask for royalties;)

ready and waiting. TWS

[kwaichang]

Ng will be at the top of the list

[bodhi warrior]

I believe it was you who stated GMS got much of his material from books and videos. And while I concede that may be the case for post 1990 material, what about the material in the 60's, 70's, and 80's? I mean the VCR didn't take off until the mid 80's.
Where would he have gotten his cranes, birds, huas, 8 drunken immortals, etc.? There was very little written about chinese martial arts back then and fewer videos. About the only thing available that we have is the three internal arts.
What's your opinion?

[Judge Pen]

I employ the same processes in all the research I do for term papers and my thesis. If I didn't, I'd be an idiot, and I'd cite from untrustworthy sources, and I'd be called an idiot.

Many SD info sources (websites, the Do book) are poorly referenced....meaning, we're getting hearsay, not research.

Yep, but most of the CMA history that is bandied about out there is based on hearsay not research. It come down to belief because there is little that can be verified in CMA history. You go down every lineage of the well-respected relativley non-controversial styles and sooner or later you will run into the myth section of the lineage. You just hit SD's myth section a bit quicker than most.

[Judge Pen]

If other systems are using the Shaolin Name for marketing and stating this or that then why havent they been crucified as well ?? I understand the doubt that exists I doubted too at 1st and really did alot of searching back in 92 when i started but fortunately for me i continued to train and learn as I feel the value comes from what can be learned and applied. I have found both in SD. I am sorry others havent. I continue to learn daily and improve "hopefully". I have heard GMT explain how certain arts are from the Shaolin Temples and or related to it and the conection is there like it or not. The dates check out the names check out and the styles etc check out. With this said there has been no definitive evidence to convince me otherwise about SD. Not even the Li Bao Shu thing. Too many loop holes. The way I see it the only partially legitimate statements made were that SD doesnt have the "flavor" and we wear Gis. and both statments prove nothing they are all just opinions and little or no fact. KC

SD gets picked on more because we are the largest target. And then the majority of the schools have the Japanese trappings which is extremely offensive culturally to many Chinese people. Then, when the size of the organization and the outward trappings draws the attention, then we start getting picked at for the non-verifiable lineage and the flavor issues that have been discussed.

[kwaichang]

Go to U Tube key in sweep the leg and look for No More Kings play the video and enjoy. KC:)

[Judge Pen]

I believe it was you who stated GMS got much of his material from books and videos. And while I concede that may be the case for post 1990 material, what about the material in the 60's, 70's, and 80's? I mean the VCR didn't take off until the mid 80's.
Where would he have gotten his cranes, birds, huas, 8 drunken immortals, etc.? There was very little written about chinese martial arts back then and fewer videos. About the only thing available that we have is the three internal arts.
What's your opinion?

Its sad when I know what the next response to this debate will be. Typically, the detractor will say something akin to the following:

"Well, there may have been little written about chinese martial arts back then and fewer videos in the west there have been pamphlets and books in china and the east describing these marital arts with move-for-move diagrams for years prior to the martial arts popularity explosion in the west. Plus, the way SD performs these styles demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of their core concepts and principles--like someone learned the forms from a book."

Did I get that right? :D

[MasterKiller]

"Well, there may have been little written about chinese martial arts back then and fewer videos in the west there have been pamphlets and books in china and the east describing these marital arts with move-for-move diagrams for years prior to the martial arts popularity explosion in the west. Plus, the way SD performs these styles demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of their core concepts and principles--like someone learned the forms from a book."

At least you are paying attention.;)

[mkriii]

Shane....I'm a Ng student and I believe he is referring to us picking on SD.

[sean_stonehart]

I believe it was you who stated GMS got much of his material from books and videos. And while I concede that may be the case for post 1990 material, what about the material in the 60's, 70's, and 80's? I mean the VCR didn't take off until the mid 80's.
Where would he have gotten his cranes, birds, huas, 8 drunken immortals, etc.? There was very little written about chinese martial arts back then and fewer videos. About the only thing available that we have is the three internal arts.
What's your opinion?

I don't believe I stated that directly. I offered it as a possibility to explain much of what SD has contained & what not.

For the, see JP's post.

[sean_stonehart]

Go to U Tube key in sweep the leg and look for No More Kings play the video and enjoy. KC:)

That's not too bad... room for development into a pretty good funk band.

I couldn't take the whole 7 minute cinema thing though...

[Judge Pen]

At least you are paying attention.;)

At this point, I could have the entire 500 page debate with myself. :p

[sean_stonehart]

At this point, I could have the entire 500 page debate with myself. :p

No no no... they'd take you away in a tight white jacket that makes you hug yourself.

Remember, it's OK to talk to yourself... it's NOT OK to answer back.

[Judge Pen]

No no no... they'd take you away in a tight white jacket that makes you hug yourself.

Remember, it's OK to talk to yourself... it's NOT OK to answer back.

Sure it is, but only if you can give the correct answers.

[Lamassu]

It's fitting that 500 is overwhelmed with the ever so familiar p!$$ing contests! It's how the thread got this far in the first place. :p

[Judge Pen]

Which post was the first on page 500? My browser is set up differently, I'm at 755 pages.

[sean_stonehart]

Which post was the first on page 500? My browser is set up differently, I'm at 755 pages.


##7486

On the white jacket... answer correct & ok or vice versa? Just for future reference & eventual use...

[Judge Pen]

500Yeah ... maybe it is, but strictly speaking I never said it nor would I since I never witnessed such an event or occurance or was involved. That would be stupid to do such a thing.

SS gets to wear the "King of the SD thread" hat (conspiciously shaped like a dunce cap) for being the man to break the 500 page SD barrier. Way to go Sean! :D

[sean_stonehart]

SS gets to wear the "King of the SD thread" hat (conspiciously shaped like a dunce cap) for being the man to break the 500 page SD barrier. Way to go Sean! :D

Whoo hoo!!!!

As long as I can still drink SoCo at your house, I'll wear most any hat!

[kwaichang]

Come on guys watch the whole video its awesome especially the last scene did you notice the Cobra Kais are in it too as well as Ralph Machio it has been 23.5 years boy thats a while. KC

[sean_stonehart]

Come on guys watch the whole video its awesome especially the last scene did you notice the Cobra Kais are in it too as well as Ralph Machio it has been 23.5 years boy thats a while. KC

I just couldn't do it...

[bodhi warrior]

If SD forms are so karate like, why would Alex Hyunh choose 2 beginner SD forms to represent CMA? And also, I was reading GMS's karate book from the 80's and he gives the reason and history for I-Pong(snap punch). It explains why it is emphasized in our style.
Any thoughts?

[mkriii]

Why do you say that Alex choose 2 SD forms to represent CMA? Alex is a Wu Shu stylist and now is into stunt work. Also, does Alex speak for the whole Chinese martial art community now? He is just one person out of millions of Chinese martial artists. If he choose a SD form to represent CMA then thats fine, maybe thats what he thinks a CMA form should look like. Or maybe he likes those two forms for some crazy reason. Lets ask Dok Fei Wong or Dr. Yang Jwing Ming or some other respected CMA master if these SD forms look like Chinese kung fu forms to them. What do you think their response would be?

[kungfujunky]

go ask them and find out

[kungfujunky]

you know mark you make a LOT of suppositions on this thread and in your posts. you have yet to give facts outside of your own opinion.

you dont know what those masters would think. nor does anyone else here.

i have seen gmt with other noted cma masters and they treated him with the respect he has earned. as he did them.

[Judge Pen]

Why do you say that Alex choose 2 SD forms to represent CMA? Alex is a Wu Shu stylist and now is into stunt work. Also, does Alex speak for the whole Chinese martial art community now? He is just one person out of millions of Chinese martial artists. If he choose a SD form to represent CMA then thats fine, maybe thats what he thinks a CMA form should look like. Or maybe he likes those two forms for some crazy reason. Lets ask Dok Fei Wong or Dr. Yang Jwing Ming or some other respected CMA master if these SD forms look like Chinese kung fu forms to them. What do you think their response would be?

In the "Fight Science" Discovery T.V. show, Alex Hyunh performed part of Fe Hu Tsu Tung and Lo Han Chien. I e-mailed him and asked him where he learned these forms. He responded that he trained traditionally before his wu shu career and his first teacher was a student of John Wingloc Ng. That's where he learned these forms--from his first teacher. Interesting, huh?

I bet if the forms were performed by someone known to not be an SD person, then they wouldn't bat an eye about the form--even if they are performed the same way that a typical SD person is taught. When Alex did them, he did them the way they were supposed to be done except he was mixing the two forms together into one. Too bad the videos aren't on Youtube anymore.

[Judge Pen]

In fact, here it is directly from Mr. Hyunh:

Mr. [Judge Pen],

Yes indeed, that was Lohan Chien and Fei Fu Chu Tong (I'm afraid I just butchered the spelling). I studied ShaoLin Kungfu under Instructor David White and Grandmaster John Winglock Ng. That's where I got my official start in the Chinese martial arts. Wushu came much later (I've done traditional for over 15 years, Wushu for maybe 4 years), contrary to popular belief.

I'm very glad you got to see the program and I hope you enjoyed it. There are many things that were cut from the show due to time restraints, but I did my best to represent the Chinese arts. Thank you for watching to show, stay tuned for more!

Sincerely,
Alex Huynh

*******

Interesting, huh?

[mkriii]

As you probably know I'm a student of John Dufresne's whose teacher is Grandmaster John Wing Loc Ng. I have never heard of Alex until just now. I've been with John Dufresne for 18 years and under GM John Wing Loc Ng for 3 years before Dufresne. For someone that has made it as big as him doing stunt work in the movies I would have thought that I would at least know of him especially if he claims that John Ng is his teacher. I'm not saying he isn't his student, I just have never heard of him. Grandmaster Ng hardly teaches anyone anymore. He teaches a few people and thats in tai chi and Pa Qua. As far as I know John Ng hasn't taught anyone seriously other than like I said a few people in over ten years. Master Frank Sexton does most if not all of the teaching. Also John Ng lives in Eastern Kentucky in the small (and I mean small) town of Whitesburg. He has lived there for close to 15 years. Did Alex go there or live there to train with John Ng. Where is Alex from?

[Yao Sing]

Hate to sound like I'm just bashing SD but why do you say he's doing YOUR forms? Are these 2 sets exclusive to SD?

I think it's been accepted that SD has some Shaolin forms. At this point in time, especially with the proliferation of Shaolin material in print and video and the accusations GMT learned from these sources, having a known Shaolin set in the curriculum says absolutely zero.

The questions are how did SD get them and are they taught/performed in the style of Shaolin.

Wah Lum added PRC 24 into the Taiji program. Would pointing to another Master doing the set and saying "Look. he's doing one of our Taiji sets" prove our legitimacy?

BTW, are there any sets unique t SD?

[Judge Pen]

As you probably know I'm a student of John Dufresne's whose teacher is Grandmaster John Wing Loc Ng. I have never heard of Alex until just now. I've been with John Dufresne for 18 years and under GM John Wing Loc Ng for 3 years before Dufresne. For someone that has made it as big as him doing stunt work in the movies I would have thought that I would at least know of him especially if he claims that John Ng is his teacher. I'm not saying he isn't his student, I just have never heard of him. Grandmaster Ng hardly teaches anyone anymore. He teaches a few people and thats in tai chi and Pa Qua. As far as I know John Ng hasn't taught anyone seriously other than like I said a few people in over ten years. Master Frank Sexton does most if not all of the teaching. Also John Ng lives in Eastern Kentucky in the small (and I mean small) town of Whitesburg. He has lived there for close to 15 years. Did Alex go there or live there to train with John Ng. Where is Alex from?

I think he's from Blacksburg Virginia. As you can see, his first teacher was David Wright.

I want to be clear: I'm not accusing Mr. Ng of "stealing" forms or anything as petty like that. Obviously Mr. Hyunh learned at least these two SD forms (which, as far as I can tell, are unique to SD). I'm sure that there was much "cross-pollination" of Ng forms and SD forms from their students (heck, I learned a couple of Ng forms ages ago). I do think its interesting that Mr. Huynh, with his 15 years of traditional background, chose to mix these two forms into his example of traditional shaolin kung fu for the Fight Science t.v. show. And, whats even more interesting to me, is that people either assumed he was doing traditional kung fu, or he was performing a wu shu set--No one that I know of ever said these forms looked like karate or kenpo or whatever else people accuse SD of looking like.

[Yao Sing]

No one that I know of ever said these forms looked like karate or kenpo or whatever else people accuse SD of looking like.

Probably because he did them with Shaolin flavor. As you knnow that's one of the points of contention. If SD did them 'correctly' then nobody would say they look like Karate.

I happen to be of that opinion based on the SD I've seen. Although I'm no expert on Shaolin or Karate it still looks closer to Karae than to Shaolin to me.

Just like everything I do ends up looking like Wah Lum (used to be my Wah Lum looked like Kenpo wich Sifu Richard Allen hounded me for during my early Wah Lum days).

So those 2 sets ARE unique to SD?

[Judge Pen]

Hate to sound like I'm just bashing SD but why do you say he's doing YOUR forms? Are these 2 sets exclusive to SD?

I think it's been accepted that SD has some Shaolin forms. At this point in time, especially with the proliferation of Shaolin material in print and video and the accusations GMT learned from these sources, having a known Shaolin set in the curriculum says absolutely zero.

The questions are how did SD get them and are they taught/performed in the style of Shaolin.

Wah Lum added PRC 24 into the Taiji program. Would pointing to another Master doing the set and saying "Look. he's doing one of our Taiji sets" prove our legitimacy?

BTW, are there any sets unique t SD?


These two forms are some of the most basic SD forms out there. They have been taught for years (probably as long as Sin The as been in America) and are, as far as I can tell, unique to SD. I've never seen anyone claim to teach them outside of SD prior to Mr. Hyunh's performance. I've looked for examples of them, but while there are things out there of similar flavor, I haven't seen these particular forms before. Now, SD and Ng kung-fu co-existed in a relatively small and rural area for years--it stands to reason that forms were traded and, as I said, "cross-pollinated" but Ithese two forms are SD's forms.

Now, just like Doc Fai Wong's 5 animal form claims to have its origns in the shaolin temple, then its possible that SD's version came from the same origin and was not borrowed from DFW, then its possible that these two forms came from the same origin and were not borrowed from SD. I accept that possibility just like I accept the possibiltiy of DFW's form. In fact, I would love to see other people claiming lineage to the temple with no affilation or contact with SD do our forms as part of their shaolin curriculim. I just haven't seen these two forms anywhere else.

[Judge Pen]

Probably because he did them with Shaolin flavor. As you knnow that's one of the points of contention. If SD did them 'correctly' then nobody would say they look like Karate.

I happen to be of that opinion based on the SD I've seen. Although I'm no expert on Shaolin or Karate it still looks closer to Karae than to Shaolin to me.

Just like everything I do ends up looking like Wah Lum (used to be my Wah Lum looked like Kenpo wich Sifu Richard Allen hounded me for during my early Wah Lum days).

So those 2 sets ARE unique to SD?

I really think he did these forms well and the way they should be done and the way that I learned them. I think if some good Sd people did some of their forms in Chinese unis or regular clothes, then people wouldn't think they looked so karate like. There would be differences of expression to address, but it would not be accused of karate. At least that's my belief.

I used to have me doing SD's kwan dao form up. Now, I have lots of personal weaknesses and issues with my own expression and form, but I think the form itslef was well respected--maybe as a horse-cutter form instead of a kwan dao (no stroking the beard etc) but as CMA nonetheless.

[mkriii]

I just got off the phone with Mark Burgher who is one of Dr. John Wing Loc Ng's students and has been for probably 25+ years. He was one of Dr. Ng's original students from Four Seasons and he has never heard of this Alex Hyunh either. He says that he would have had to learn from John Ng a long time ago, at least 6 or 7 years ago because John doesn't really do much teaching except to a select few. He still trains Frank Sexton and teaches Tai Chi to some women but thats about it. Funny how know one that I've talked to from Ng Family has heard of Alex training under John Ng.

[MasterKiller]

How did forms get swapped between Sin and Ng????

Did they train together?

It's funny that Alex used the Indonesian spelling and not Chinese. Does Ng also use this romanization for his other forms?

[mkriii]

First I would like to say that John Ng and Sin The' NEVER trained together. I have never seen these forms performed by any John Ng students thats not to say they haven't been done. If you knew the history behind John Ng's school and Sin The's school you wouldn't be asking if they trained together.....lol. If John Ng did teach these forms I'm sure he would use the Chinese spelling, difinitely NOT the Indonesian spelling.

[MasterKiller]

First I would like to say that John Ng and Sin The' NEVER trained together. I have never seen these forms performed by any John Ng students thats not to say they haven't been done. If you knew the history behind John Ng's school and Sin The's school you wouldn't be asking if they trained together.....lol.

I know the history; nevertheless, Alex apparently knows an SD form or two, and Judge Pen apparently knows an Ng form or two. So...

[MasterKiller]

I really think he did these forms well and the way they should be done and the way that I learned them. I think if some good Sd people did some of their forms in Chinese unis or regular clothes, then people wouldn't think they looked so karate like. There would be differences of expression to address, but it would not be accused of karate. At least that's my belief..

Isn't this the show?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8149847751338552772&q=fight+science&total=1127&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

At what time marks are the forms?

[mkriii]

You know, I know some Sin The' forms because I used to study under him and his brother. When I left and started studying under John Ng and John Dufresne I learned other forms. If I did a Sin The' form are people going to say "Hey look, he's doing a Sin The' form, John Ng must be teaching SD forms"? I doubt very seriously if John Ng is going to teach a SD form, he might, but I doubt it.

[MasterKiller]

You know, I know some Sin The' forms because I used to study under him and his brother. When I left and started studying under John Ng and John Dufresne I learned other forms. If I did a Sin The' form are people going to say "Hey look, he's doing a Sin The' form, John Ng must be teaching SD forms"? I doubt very seriously if John Ng is going to teach a SD form, he might, but I doubt it.

Well, what you don't know would fill a barn. I'm looking for feedback from the Sd folks....

[kungfujunky]

Well, what you don't know would fill a barn. I'm looking for feedback from the Sd folks....




hahaha thats awesome

i dont know much about that part of sd but i sent bq a pm so hopefully he or gt will chime in

[Judge Pen]

I just got off the phone with Mark Burgher who is one of Dr. John Wing Loc Ng's students and has been for probably 25+ years. He was one of Dr. Ng's original students from Four Seasons and he has never heard of this Alex Hyunh either. He says that he would have had to learn from John Ng a long time ago, at least 6 or 7 years ago because John doesn't really do much teaching except to a select few. He still trains Frank Sexton and teaches Tai Chi to some women but thats about it. Funny how know one that I've talked to from Ng Family has heard of Alex training under John Ng.

Did you ask him about David White? That is who Alex Hyunh said he studies with under Grandmaster John Wingloc Ng.

Heck, I'm not sure if you called up Sin The and asked him about me he would remember me by name.

[Judge Pen]

I know the history; nevertheless, Alex apparently knows an SD form or two, and Judge Pen apparently knows an Ng form or two. So...


MRK is probably right in that Sin The and NG never trained together. I'm sure Alex's teacher learned the forms from an SD student or maybe he trained in Sd for a while too. That's how I learned some of Ng's form. A student that I trained with starting training under Ng and he showed me a couple of forms. "Cross-pollination".

[Judge Pen]

I doubt very seriously if John Ng is going to teach a SD form, he might, but I doubt it.

I doubt it too. See, we can find things to agree on. :D

[mkriii]

I also asked about David White and Mark Burgher (John Ng's student for 25+ years) said he's heard the name before but doesn't know who he is or who he is affiliated with. I'm glad we can finally agree on something even if it is something minor like this.

[Yao Sing]

Now this is all very interesting considering he was chosen to represent CMA on the show. Wonder what the Shaolin community in general thinks about his representation of the art?

Haven't heard anyone moaning "who the F is this guy and what was that he did on the show?"

[mkriii]

I'll bet that Alex knows my good friend Gary Stearns who studied in Ng Family Kung Fu. He does stunt work and was in Pirates of the Carribean II & III, Matrix II & III, He just got done filming in Hawaii for Indiana Jones movie. He studied under Master Ricky Pickens who is an original student of John Ng for 30+ years. I saw where Alex was doing stunt work as well. Bet they know each other.

[Judge Pen]

Now this is all very interesting considering he was chosen to represent CMA on the show. Wonder what the Shaolin community in general thinks about his representation of the art?

Haven't heard anyone moaning "who the F is this guy and what was that he did on the show?"

There was a thread somewhere on here bemoaning the fact they chose a wu shu guy for the show. But you can find a thread bemoaning just about anything. :p

[Yao Sing]

Actuall, now that I think about it I remember that thread. You would think they would go to Yan Ming or someone like that.

[Judge Pen]

Isn't this the show?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8149847751338552772&q=fight+science&total=1127&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

At what time marks are the forms?


yes, that's it. Here are the marks and my take:

Forms starts at 24:38 and 24:49. It intercuts between Lo Han Chien and Fu Hu Tzung Tsu.

24:38 to 24-41. Lo Han Chien
24:42 to 24:44 Fe Hu
24:45 to 24:46 Lo Han
24:46 to 24:49 Fe Hu

The only differences I see between the way he did the form and the way I know it is that he embellished the opening bow before starting Lo Han Chien and we strike with a double fist at the "freeze frame" section of Fe Hu instead of his double tiger claw.

Any other SD people want to comment? Anyone that made it through green in SD learned these two forms.

Edit: Oh, its hard to tell because of the inter-cutting, but it looks like he may have cut short the cat stance to jump front snap kick. You're supposed to sink your weight down after stepping to the cat stance and then spring upward with the kick.

[MasterKiller]

yes, that's it. Here are the marks and my take:

Forms starts at 24:38 and 24:49. It intercuts between Lo Han Chien and Fu Hu Tzung Tsu.

24:38 to 24-41. Lo Han Chien
24:42 to 24:44 Fe Hu
24:45 to 24:46 Lo Han
24:46 to 24:49 Fe Hu

The only differences I see between the way he did the form and the way I know it is that he embellished the opening bow before starting Lo Han Chien and we strike with a double fist at the "freeze frame" section of Fe Hu instead of his double tiger claw.

Any other SD people want to comment? Anyone that made it through green in SD learned these two forms.

Edit: Oh, its hard to tell because of the inter-cutting, but it looks like he may have cut short the cat stance to jump front snap kick. You're supposed to sink your weight down after stepping to the cat stance and then spring upward with the kick.

I would say he's got more CMA flavor compared to typical SD folks, but it's hard to tell with the form all chopped up like that.

That mantis stance he does looks gay.

[Lamassu]

Where did this guy learn those forms from again? It's plain as day, he's doing Lo Huan and Fe Hu Chu Tung alright. Due to the heavy editing, most likely, he did both forms separate and a 'creative' editor decided to splice the two together for asthetic value as well as time saving.

I don't know anything about the Ng family or Doc Fai Wong, so I'm not going to comment about that, but I will say one thing though, I've met GMT a few times before and I am considered one of his students but due to the size of his school, like the Ng family, I'm sure he wouldn't know me from Adam.

The whole pesky 'CMA flair' thing again. *sigh* ultimately the 'flair' is nothing more than years and years of intense training (like 4-5 hours a day). From what I saw concerning the two forms in question, his snaps were tight and his transition from posture to posture was very fluid (despite the heavy editing), however I think what we saw is a wushu guy doing a couple of SD forms. Which are very simplistic when compared to competition wushu. Therefore he wasn't really exerting himself and able to put more attention on the actual excecution of the basic strikes and stances.

If all people can say in regards to SD looking more like karate than CMA, is in the excecution of the form and not anything specificely found in the form itself, then there's nothing to sweat about.

[MasterKiller]

The whole pesky 'CMA flair' thing again. *sigh* ultimately the 'flair' is nothing more than years and years of intense training (like 4-5 hours a day).

I disagree.

[mkriii]

I think when people say that the forms that SD teaches look more like karate or kenpo I think what they are refering to is that the forms are pretty linear in blocking and attacking. For example, in the form Se Mong Tau Lie if I remember correctly you do a cross arm block up and then a cross arm block downward as you step forward with one foot. Is that correct? It's been A LONG time since I learned this form. Thats like the first couple moves. This appears to be more karate like in that most Chinese martial arts teach thier students to use more of a circular approach to blocking rather than straight linear. At least that my take on that subject.

[MasterKiller]

I think when people say that the forms that SD teaches look more like karate or kenpo I think what they are refering to is that the forms are pretty linear in blocking and attacking. For example, in the form Se Mong Tau Lie if I remember correctly you do a cross arm block up and then a cross arm block downward as you step forward with one foot. Is that correct? It's been A LONG time since I learned this form. Thats like the first couple moves. This appears to be more karate like in that most Chinese martial arts teach thier students to use more of a circular approach to blocking rather than straight linear. At least that my take on that subject.

Nope.

Flavor is about how the technique is played, not the technique itself.

for example (non-SD forms):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCh0cgcKqKg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LJAo1xRdkaE

All the same form, all played differently.

[mkriii]

I think that flair is just a persons way of expressing how they want to portray a form or their personality.

[mkriii]

Masterkiller....I was reffering to an earlier post about SD looking like karate not the post about flair.

[MasterKiller]

Masterkiller....I was reffering to an earlier post about SD looking like karate not the post about flair.

No sh1t. I was correcting you.

[sean_stonehart]

Nope.

Flavor is about how the technique is played, not the technique itself.

for example (non-SD forms):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCh0cgcKqKg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LJAo1xRdkaE

All the same form, all played differently.

I like #1 & #3 better... too much modern wushu flair in #2 for my taste

[Yao Sing]

Don't know if 'linear' is the right word. I don't go that deep with it but if I had to put it in words I would say 'rigid'.

CMA, IMO, is more relaxed and there's more of a seamless flow to it that you don't see in most Karate, at least not until the higher levels. Transitions are smoother and have better flow.

EDIT: went off on a tangent there so I deleted it.

[mkriii]

Well no **** to you to master wanna be killer. I know what flavor is. My post was not in reference to flavor so there was really no need to correct me because I wasn't wrong. Of course I'm never wrong, I might have been mistaken once but never wrong.

[mkriii]

Yao Sing...good post. Thats exactly what I was trying to say only you said it better. And most of the forms that I have seen in SD try to "out yang" the attacker.

[MasterKiller]

Well no **** to you to master wanna be killer. I know what flavor is. My post was not in reference to flavor so there was really no need to correct me because I wasn't wrong. Of course I'm never wrong, I might have been mistaken once but never wrong.

Your post was in reference to Lammasu saying

If all people can say in regards to SD looking more like karate than CMA, is in the excecution of the form and not anything specificely found in the form itself, then there's nothing to sweat about.

Which in turn was a reply to me saying

I would say he's got more CMA flavor compared to typical SD folks, but it's hard to tell with the form all chopped up like that.

So the discussion is about flavor, not linear forms.

[mkriii]

The conversation was about the form looking choppy and like karate. You changed it to flavor. And further more I'll play where ever I want. And that includes in your back yard if I want to master wanna be killer. So don't get red with me or I'll get red right back at ya. You feel me?

[Lamassu]

I disagree.

Fair enough.

MKRIII,

How is Shaolin Do trying to 'out yang' the attack?

In Si Mu Tao Lien (yes, I butchered the spelling; I don't care), I think you're referring to the two swinging 'x' blocks that's done twice in the form. These blocks are reliant on motion and deflecting the attack from reaching it's target, in other words, a SOFT or YIN approach to a Yang attack. Believe it or not, but I was taught at my kwoon in Austin, that soft blocks against yang style attacks are ideal because otherwise it becomes a test of strength.

For example, if you were to excecute a round house kick to my temple and I step forward with a right forearm block (hand up), then your kick (if not going through my arm) will break my arm instead (thus the karate student mentality, better my arm than my head). But that's not what we do, we twist our forearm in a counterclockwise motion to disperse the force of the kick away from the point of contact, thus sparing our arm and head.

[MasterKiller]

For example, if you were to excecute a round house kick to my temple and I step forward with a right forearm block (hand up), then your kick (if not going through my arm) will break my arm instead (thus the karate student mentality, better my arm than my head). But that's not what we do, we twist our forearm in a counterclockwise motion to disperse the force of the kick away from the point of contact, thus sparing our arm and head. Man, that sounds dangerous as it sounds like you are dropping both hands to defend the kick. I think I would rather just shield against the kick so I could step in and counter.

Lots of CMA redirection is based on the opponent trying to stick to you, and people just don't fight that way anymore.

[MasterKiller]

Also, I have been reminded that as a member of the Kung Fu Magazine staff I do not condone nor do I participate in challenge matches.

[MasterKiller]

Your the one that challenged me!!!! Go back and look at post # 7596. Your the one talking about a neutral location and rights to video and all that crap. If you don't mean it then don't say it. In other worts put up or shut the F up.

I deleted my posts. They violated KFM policy.

[kungfujunky]

hey mark based on your posts i would have no problem meeting you in a match. you come off as a spoiled kid with to much play time on his hands.

who the hell do you think you are to talk to people the way you do? you dont train sd...you couldnt handle it when you did...and now your a bitter person taking out his angst. btw what kind of message does your ranting posts say to your future students? you sir are the epitome of foolish ignorance.

i am not some 10+ year martial arts practitioner but i dont think it would take one with more than 1 year experience to take you down a notch or 2

you need therapy dude

hey mk i have some private video of myself i would share with you...pm your email and ill send it along. let me know what you think

[mkriii]

First off kung fu junky this so called master killer challenged me but then deleted his posts. Second you don't know a thing about me so for you to call me spoiled is out of ignorance. Where do YOU get off judging me? Master killer is the one who started with the vulgarities first. He shouldn't make challenges and then change his mind and say it's against forum policy to participate in challenge matches. That sounds like a cop out to me. And lastly if you think you can take me down a notch then try. You SD guys are so full of yourselves. Brainwashed is what you are. You learn crappy "kung fu" or something and then your bullett proof.

[Lamassu]

Man, that sounds dangerous as it sounds like you are dropping both hands to defend the kick. I think I would rather just shield against the kick so I could step in and counter.

Lots of CMA redirection is based on the opponent trying to stick to you, and people just don't fight that way anymore.

Not really, both hands are still up as you step forward with your right foot, closing the distance between you and the attacker and with the deflecting arm, the elbow is raised about shoulder height at a 90* angle. Once the kick is excecuted, the attacker is committed to it, and your within counterstriking range with the deflecting arm (ridge hand to the base of the jaw under the ear: pressure point). Point being, SD counters yang style attacks with yin style blocks/deflections, just like any other CMA.

[MasterKiller]

hey mk i have some private video of myself i would share with you...pm your email and ill send it along. let me know what you think Kung Fu belongs to the people. Why not Youtube it for the world to see?

[brucereiter]

Lots of CMA redirection is based on the opponent trying to stick to you, and people just don't fight that way anymore.

that is a good observation.

[MasterKiller]

that is a good observation.

Think about it. What is the real difference between Kung Fu and other systems--sticking and bridging.

Both of these concepts work well when the other guy is also sticking and trying to create a bridge. But, if the opponent is striking and recovering, like a boxer, all that sticking and bridging work is useless...and will probably get you KO'd.

[Judge Pen]

Think about it. What is the real difference between Kung Fu and other systems--sticking and bridging.

Both of these concepts work well when the other guy is also sticking and trying to create a bridge. But, if the opponent is striking and recovering, like a boxer, all that sticking and bridging work is useless...and will probably get you KO'd.

Which is why kung fu sparring now looks like kickboxing! :p

[MasterKiller]

Which is why kung fu sparring now looks like kickboxing! :p

I know you're partially joking, but really it's the truth.

[kungfujunky]

me calling you ignorant is based 100% on your actions on here.

i dont know you at all but the way you act here towards others WHO YOU DONT KNOW shows a lot about your overall character.

when im in kentucky i will be sure to drop you a line master mkrii

[kwaichang]

So much to say so little time MK you are a joke you work for KFM and are biased by what you think CMA are, MKRiii I will be in Lexington next month I will be available for a friendly sparring session so you can teach me real MA I amusually there on Saturdays in the PM. Let me Know.

This Karate play thing is old itis apparent that none of you have seen a "good" SD guy and when you do you are in complete denial. AS Far as SMTL form it is what ever you want it to be abreak of a grab acircular block of a kick and then push or counter the 2 block attacks and then a throw. It is all interpretation and if you need more wiggle or fluidity then if that is all it takes for you guys to see flavor then that is like just adding salt only and nothing more to a steak.

This same line was on here 3 months a go. Lets find something new. What say??? KC

[MasterKiller]

So much to say so little time MK you are a joke you work for KFM and are biased by what you think CMA are,

LOL, every moderator here is biased. Get over it. And anyone that thinks I'm a joke is more than welcome to join me for tea and crumpets.

[kwaichang]

How bout Earl Grey you buying KC

[Ground Dragon]

I haven't been here in forever and I'm in utter disbelief this thread is still going on.

[Yao Sing]

This Karate play thing is old it

So are you saying it's stale or something? Is there an expiration date on truth?


is apparent that none of you have seen a "good" SD guy

No argument here since that's what peeps have been saying in every imaginable way. Even most of the SD guys here agree that the publicly available clips are substandard.


and when you do you are in complete denial.

Translation - if you don't agree with me about what is quality CMA then you are in denial. It obviously couldn't be YOU in denial.


This same line was on here 3 months a go. Lets find something new. What say??? KC

Translation - stop bringing up stuff we can't answer/produce/document/explain.

[Yao Sing]

I haven't been here in forever and I'm in utter disbelief this thread is still going on.

Didn't you know about the goal of 500 pages?

[kwaichang]

Yao were you named after that cartoon character in Mulan ?? Dont pretend to try to interpret what I said but I will help , this is old news and nothing was proven before and it wont be, Denial yeah you are in denial believe it or not i have seen alot of very good MA and styles and trained with many as well Korean Japanese and Chinese and I am not in any type of denial except that you have chosen me to be an antagonist against because you are a Dic. KC

[Yao Sing]

I deny that I am in denial and accuse YOU sir of being in denial that you are in denial.

Don't deny it!

You see, just saying it doesn't make it true.

So again, old news is unworthy of discussion? Especially since it remains unresolved?

You know if you're no longer interested in it you could just not read it and let the rest of us continue on with our discussion.

[mkriii]

Can someone please explain this to me. Here is a link to Steve DeMascos & Charles Mattera recieving the title of Grandmaster by the abott of the Shaolin temple. I thought that Sin The' was the grandmaster? Can someone from SD please explain this to me.

http://www.ussd.com/a/LINEAGE/SHAOLINTEMPLE/tabid/61/Default.aspx

[kungfujunky]

first off sin the has never professed to being the ultimate shaolin monk grandmaster. only the grandmaster of shaolin-do.

also...i thought the abbot was just a monk..no martial skills...so how can he hand out belts...unless there was a monetary payment of some kind like when tablets are bought.

keep trolling silly boy

[Lamassu]

This might come as a shock to some of you but I did some reflecting last night on some things that I have said and I would just like to appolagize for any negative comments I might have said.

What a crock of horse sh!t. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

first off sin the has never professed to being the ultimate shaolin monk grandmaster. only the grandmaster of shaolin-do.

After Grandmaster E's death, I realized that while there were many engineers in the world, there was only one Grandmaster of Shaolin...
http://shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html

In 1968, his training was complete and Grandmaster Ie awarded Master Sin Thé the rank of 10th Degree Black Belt and the Grandmaster's Red Belt. Sin Kwang Thé had become the youngest Grandmaster in the history of the Shaolin martial arts!
http://shaolin-do.com/pages/history.php

It is important to understand the distinction between the grandmaster of the temple and the head abbot. The grandmaster was in charge of the monks' physical progress and the mastery of the martial arts by the warrior monks. The head abbot was in charge of the temple as a whole and the monks' religious and intellectual studies.
http://shaolin-do.com/pages/history.php

Sin Kwang The is recognized by those who know him as the Shaolin grandmaster..."
http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/pofilegmmam1994.pdf

[mkriii]

Kungfujunky....I don't see how asking a serious question like that is trolling. I asked a question and posted a link to show where I got my question. Your just mad because you are one of the many that has been suckered by your martial arts teacher and brainwashed to believe some lame @ss story about a hairy man and his lineage to the Shaolin Temple. For God's sakes man wake up and smell the coffee. You think your style of Kung Fu is authentic? Where do you ever see the title Elder Master in Shaolin history? Thats some B.S. title that "Grandmaster" Sin made up thats what it is. It was probably made up to satisfy Bill Leonard.

[MasterKiller]

In 1968, grandmaster Ie awarded the tenth-degree black belt and with it the title of grandmaster of Shaolin to Sin Kwang The.
http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/historyofshaolinikfnov1987.pdf

In 1976 at the age of 96, he promoted Sin The' to the honary position of tenth-degree black belt and grandmaster of Shaolin. This made Sin The one of the youngest grandmasters on record and left him with the awesome responsibilty of preserving and perpetuating the Shaolin system with all it's accumulated knowledge"
http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/pofilegmmam1994.pdf

So which is it, 1976 or 1968?

[Mas Judt]

It's both. Using his super-kersnappy Grandhamster powers Sin The' travels back and forth through time establishing himself as the only 10th degree grandhamster of Shaolin.

Or whoever wrote that mixed it up.

Or ST can't keep his own BS straight.

My guess is the later while excusing it with the former.

[bodhi warrior]

to all interested. There's a martial arts tournament in Chillicothe OH in Feb. called the Arnold classic. The web site is www.arnoldmartialarts.com. Some of the debate could be settled there.

[mkriii]

Masterkiller.....I read those articles and they were good. It's to bad they are biased in that they were written by James Hallaway who happens to be a 5th degree black belt under Sin The'. How can we believe those article to be true when they are written by a Sin The' student?

[mkriii]

Kungfujunky........If you go back and look at your post (#7616) you said something to the effect that monks and/or abbots don't give out belts or ranks as far as you knew. OK with that being said why then does Grandmaster Sin have a photo taken in front of some tablet with the abbot that he paid to have erected in his honor at the temple? I think this was done clearly to make it seem like and to legitamize Sin The's claim as the Grandmaster. That some how the abbot of that temple recognizes this title of GM. Heck if I made a contribution to the temple they would honor me with a big monument too. There are many monuments like this there in honor of others. Sin makes it sound like his is the only one and that they did it because of who he is.

[MasterKiller]

Masterkiller.....I read those articles and they were good. It's to bad they are biased in that they were written by James Hallaway who happens to be a 5th degree black belt under Sin The'. How can we believe those article to be true when they are written by a Sin The' student?

To be fair, all martial arts artilces are biased when it comes to style history. It would be safe to assume 99.9999997% of all martial arts magazine articles are inaccurate when it comes to history-related material.

[kungfujunky]

i have only ever heard that the tablet was erected to commemorate his visit. nothing more.

i have never heard it referred to as a monument to his title.

and i have never heard him say he is the grandmaster of shaolin et all.

just of csc/shaolin-do

i even asked him this at a festival and he answered me that no he was just the grandmaster of our particular system which has roots in the temples.

i dont write his website which is used as a marketing thing anyways.

what he has told me and others is what i base my opinion off of troll.

not what i read on the web. i have seen grandiose claims from your lineage as well mkrii but i dont crawl down their case because i havent spoken with the gm.

forgive me for having manners.

i will say it again. you are an ignorant troll just stirring trouble. you have picked fights with multiple posters on here and have added nothing of depth to the conversation.

[Baqualin]

Kungfujunky........If you go back and look at your post (#7616) you said something to the effect that monks and/or abbots don't give out belts or ranks as far as you knew. OK with that being said why then does Grandmaster Sin have a photo taken in front of some tablet with the abbot that he paid to have erected in his honor at the temple? I think this was done clearly to make it seem like and to legitamize Sin The's claim as the Grandmaster. That some how the abbot of that temple recognizes this title of GM. Heck if I made a contribution to the temple they would honor me with a big monument too. There are many monuments like this there in honor of others. Sin makes it sound like his is the only one and that they did it because of who he is.

I love how you come on here and make statements about things you clearly know nothing about. At least come up with something new.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Can someone please explain this to me. Here is a link to Steve DeMascos & Charles Mattera recieving the title of Grandmaster by the abott of the Shaolin temple. I thought that Sin The' was the grandmaster? Can someone from SD please explain this to me.

http://www.ussd.com/a/LINEAGE/SHAOLINTEMPLE/tabid/61/Default.aspx

You need to go to the USSD thread to get your answer:)
BQ

[Baqualin]

You SD guys are so full of yourselves. Brainwashed is what you are. You learn crappy "kung fu" or something and then your bullett proof.

WOW speaking of full of one's self....I've read your post on this thread and others........you toot a pretty good horn about yourself

[Baqualin]

By the way congrats to all, Trolls and alike for THE 500 post :D
BQ

[brucereiter]

Masterkiller.....I read those articles and they were good. It's to bad they are biased in that they were written by James Hallaway who happens to be a 5th degree black belt under Sin The'. How can we believe those article to be true when they are written by a Sin The' student?

i think masterkiller was posting the links to show the conflicting information between articles on the same site. and to ask what the facts are.

i wish the facts were presented more clearly. having conflicting information being put out does not help to clear things up

[mkriii]

Kungfujunky....And you think you have added anything worthy to the conversation? Thats a joke. I might not have contributed anything worth while on this thread but I have made some good comments on others. Besides, all I have seen is chit chat B.S. between SD people about Shaolin Do. I have yet to see any reliable information validating any claims that "Grandmaster" Sin has made. I could say that I am the grandmaster of Wu Dang Kung Fu and just swear up and down that it is true. Whose to know if I am or am not. I wish that you SD guys/gals would just admitt that Shaolin Do is not true Shaolin kung fu and that Shaolin Do is a blended art, teaching other styles mixed with Shaolin kung fu. I could except that.

[kwaichang]

You are more likely to be the GM of Ding Dong Kung Fu not Wu Dang. I will be in lexington MKIII in November I will still meet with you if you wish KC:confused:

[kungfujunky]

kc i doubt very much that master mkrii has the nerve to meet anyone.

any time your in denver though feel free to let me know mickey riii

would love to see how inferior my skills are

[Lamassu]

Okay,

Shaolin Do is a mix martial art of chinese origins including 5 animal style, pakua, tai chi, hsing-i, chi kung meditation and other chinese styles that originated both outside and in the Shaolin Temples. I don't think you'll find any SD student here that would dispute that.

It's okay now, let it go.

[kungfujunky]

Okay,

Shaolin Do is a mix martial art of chinese origins including 5 animal style, pakua, tai chi, hsing-i, chi kung meditation and other chinese styles that originated both outside and in the Shaolin Temples. I don't think you'll find any SD student here that would dispute that.

It's okay now, let it go.


awesome answer!

thanks lamassu

[Baqualin]

Okay,

Shaolin Do is a mix martial art of chinese origins including 5 animal style, pakua, tai chi, hsing-i, chi kung meditation and other chinese styles that originated both outside and in the Shaolin Temples. I don't think you'll find any SD student here that would dispute that.

It's okay now, let it go.

That's what I always thought.
BQ

[BentMonk]

This type of debate has been going on within TCMA forever. Although I think it was more fun back then because you had to back up your mouth with your skills. For all you testosterone charged folks, that isn't a challenge it's an observation. Mkriii cracks me up. His style of choice catches nearly as much flack as SD and he's on here talking smack. That's funny. There's even a USSD thread that looks set to become as lengthy as this one. IMO there has been too much time between how any MA was "back in the day" compared to the way it is now. There has just been too much "cross-pollination" and individual interpretation by instructors. If the art you practice offers you what you're seeking then it is real. SD has helped me improve physically, and mentally. I have tested my SD techniques in the ring and won. That makes SD as real as any other MA in my book. My people radar has always been accurate. GM Sin has always seemed to be a teacher who genuinely cares about his students and people in general. The guy is just too genuine to be the charlatan that some people seem to think he is. I'm not alone in my POV either. SD has many students. Don't hand me the "they're all uninformed as to what real TCMA is" crap. Google is every one's friend, and yet new people come to SD by choice daily. This debate is fun, and I've made some good net friends because of it, but it does continue to travel in the same familiar circle. :)

[Yao Sing]

If the art you practice offers you what you're seeking then it is real. SD has helped me improve physically, and mentally. I have tested my SD techniques in the ring and won. That makes SD as real as any other MA in my book.

Can't argue with that but then that's not the question that was asked. The question is whether it's real Shaolin.


My people radar has always been accurate. GM Sin has always seemed to be a teacher who genuinely cares about his students and people in general. The guy is just too genuine to be the charlatan that some people seem to think he is.

I'm thinking the misinformation may have been passed on to him. The grand claims could have originated with GM Ie. I've heard grandiose claims are the norm in Indonesian MA schools.

[BentMonk]

IMO there is no one true "real" Shaolin anymore. Even the Shaolin taught in the PRC isn't the "real" Shaolin most on here are talking about. It just doesn't exist anymore. The legends are a fun source of inspiration to make us train harder, that's about it.

[Citong Shifu]

IMO there is no one true "real" Shaolin anymore. Even the Shaolin taught in the PRC isn't the "real" Shaolin most on here are talking about. It just doesn't exist anymore. The legends are a fun source of inspiration to make us train harder, that's about it.

Shhhhhhhh, dont say that too loud, lol... Dont you know, Songshan is the "ONLY" real Shaolin kungfu resource! And, if you want to be "REAL" Shaolin kungfu pratitioner you "HAVE" to learn and practice Buddhism or you'll never master your shaolin kungfu, lol... This is true. Read there articles.... Anyway, just thought I'd throw that in there...

[Citong Shifu]

I think everyone has established that SD is a aclectic style. Lets move on... We all know what we have and dont have. I can prove my Shaolin lineage through documentation back to Hui Kai Monk. With this said, my lineage from Hui Kai Monk to his elders have been documented for centuries. So, I have absolutely "No" reservation at all with using my Shaolin kungfu lineage and name. Now, I dont claim to be a Shaolin monk, I'm not and dont practice Chan. See my point?

This is my point. SD is SD, "WAY OF SHAOLIN" not "WAY OF SHAOLIN KUNG FU". Look at the name SD. I may not fully agree with SD'S claims on having and teaching the final version of Fukien Shaolin Temple Kung Fu due to them not having 95% of the material I have from the Fukien Temple era (which were passed to me from my sifu - Cai Yingxia which was passed to him from Zhuang Zi Shen, which was passed to him by Zheng Yi Shan, which was passed to him from Hui Kai Monk of the Fukien Shaolin Temple) that they refer to. I refer to the same era/s in my lineage history... However, I do know the Fukien Temple's lineage and the styles taught within that particular era...????.... Nonetheless, I welcome the SD members always. Lets move on regardless of our opinions on what is or should be... Plus, I want to see some more SD vids, lol.... I find them interesting. Some SD seem to move pretty fluid, we as others, well... But, this is true with any style... Lets see some more vids.... Please..... :D

CS

[tattooedmonk]

I think everyone has established that SD is a aclectic style. Lets move on... We all know what we have and dont have. I can prove my Shaolin lineage through documentation back to Hui Kai Monk. With this said, my lineage from Hui Kai Monk to his elders have been documented for centuries. So, I have absolutely "No" reservation at all with using my Shaolin kungfu lineage and name. Now, I dont claim to be a Shaolin monk, I'm not and dont practice Chan. See my point?

This is my point. SD is SD, "WAY OF SHAOLIN" not "WAY OF SHAOLIN KUNG FU". Look at the name SD. I may not fully agree with SD'S claims on having and teaching the final version of Fukien Shaolin Temple Kung Fu due to them not having 95% of the material I have from the Fukien Temple era (which were passed to me from my sifu - Cai Yingxia which was passed to him from Zhuang Zi Shen, which was passed to him by Zheng Yi Shan, which was passed to him from Hui Kai Monk of the Fukien Shaolin Temple) that they refer to. I refer to the same era/s in my lineage history... However, I do know the Fukien Temple's lineage and the styles taught within that particular era...????.... Nonetheless, I welcome the SD members always. Lets move on regardless of our opinions on what is or should be... Plus, I want to see some more SD vids, lol.... I find them interesting. Some SD seem to move pretty fluid, we as others, well... But, this is true with any style... Lets see some more vids.... Please..... :D

CSRemember there was at least three Shaolin temples located in that area.

[Citong Shifu]

Remember there was at least three Shaolin temples located in that area.

True, but only one was partial to kungfu training. Other Temples of the area focused on Buddhism and its practices... According to the history that was past to me.... Fukien Shaolin Temple is really vague, I agree... In my styles history, the Fukien Shaolin Temple was located in Quanzhou (known as Citong in old times). Marco Polo writes about his adventure through Fujian and the city of Citong (Quanzhou). He even mentions visiting the Shaolin Temple there... That can be pulled up online (China adventures of Marco Polo)...

Dont get me wrong. This is my history that was passed to me just as yours was passed to you.... I'm not saying that my history is 100% factual, but it sure has alot of public documention by world historian and archives to support it.

Unless, your talking about the PRC's version, then the original Fukien Temple would have been located in Putain, where they have since rebuilt the temple, lol... I mean, where they can control the Temple affairs, etc....

You see, everyone has a version of this and that, lol... I'm not down grading SD, it had to come from somewhere!

[tattooedmonk]

I believe that this is one of the problems that others have with SD , that none of the history or lineage can be traced back to whom it was said to come from and where, other than GMT,GGMICM, and Indonesia.

This is especially difficult to others that have verifiable lineages, But we also have to keep in mind that these lineages are only as accurate, and factual as the people that have kept them.

If some substantial proof was found or revealed to all of us it would make things easier.

I have no reason to doubt that SD history was taught to GMT and how he tells it, but how accurate it is or was at the time is what is questionable.

If I found out that GMT was lying or making stuff up as he went along I would be really surprised. .....

Considering the body of material that is taught in SD, the loose connections that each of the temples/ styles have, outside of the Su Kong Tai Djin Story, I would say there is more fact than fiction.

Being able to prove it is something different.

I have to admit that I have believed because of the actual words that Master Sin has told me personally , but weighing it against what factual info. that is out there and what is common knowledge, it is very difficult.

[brucereiter]

Lets see some more vids.... Please..... :D

CS

hi ya'all,

chen xin jia 83 tai chi chuan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66uMe_SJILc

leg conditioning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DGQmwT9ycI

beng chuan hsing i 5 roads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwBQnWd-GJI

enjoy,

bruce

[Judge Pen]

In 1968, grandmaster Ie awarded the tenth-degree black belt and with it the title of grandmaster of Shaolin to Sin Kwang The.
http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/historyofshaolinikfnov1987.pdf

In 1976 at the age of 96, he promoted Sin The' to the honary position of tenth-degree black belt and grandmaster of Shaolin. This made Sin The one of the youngest grandmasters on record and left him with the awesome responsibilty of preserving and perpetuating the Shaolin system with all it's accumulated knowledge"
http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/pofilegmmam1994.pdf

So which is it, 1976 or 1968?

Actually, the 1994 article says Several years before grandmaster Ie's death in 1976, he promoted Master Sin The' to the honorary position of tenth-degree black belt and grandmaster of Shaolin. 1968 would be "several years" prior to Ie's death.

[Judge Pen]

Masterkiller.....I read those articles and they were good. It's to bad they are biased in that they were written by James Hallaway who happens to be a 5th degree black belt under Sin The'. How can we believe those article to be true when they are written by a Sin The' student?

How can we believe anything you say about your teacher or style since your a student with an obvious bias? Two-way streets, you know.

[Judge Pen]

I'm thinking the misinformation may have been passed on to him. The grand claims could have originated with GM Ie. I've heard grandiose claims are the norm in Indonesian MA schools.

I think you may be right--especially with regard to the lineage prior to Ie. But part of me still would love for a record to turn up that survived the burnings that references the hairy monk. Think how many pages this thread would hit then!

[Judge Pen]

I think everyone has established that SD is a aclectic style. Lets move on... We all know what we have and dont have. I can prove my Shaolin lineage through documentation back to Hui Kai Monk. With this said, my lineage from Hui Kai Monk to his elders have been documented for centuries. So, I have absolutely "No" reservation at all with using my Shaolin kungfu lineage and name. Now, I dont claim to be a Shaolin monk, I'm not and dont practice Chan. See my point?

This is my point. SD is SD, "WAY OF SHAOLIN" not "WAY OF SHAOLIN KUNG FU". Look at the name SD. I may not fully agree with SD'S claims on having and teaching the final version of Fukien Shaolin Temple Kung Fu due to them not having 95% of the material I have from the Fukien Temple era (which were passed to me from my sifu - Cai Yingxia which was passed to him from Zhuang Zi Shen, which was passed to him by Zheng Yi Shan, which was passed to him from Hui Kai Monk of the Fukien Shaolin Temple) that they refer to. I refer to the same era/s in my lineage history... However, I do know the Fukien Temple's lineage and the styles taught within that particular era...????.... Nonetheless, I welcome the SD members always. Lets move on regardless of our opinions on what is or should be... Plus, I want to see some more SD vids, lol.... I find them interesting. Some SD seem to move pretty fluid, we as others, well... But, this is true with any style... Lets see some more vids.... Please..... :D

CS

CS, you're a class act. I wish every student and teacher of CMA displayed a grain of your humility and politeness on this thread. There are many here that could learn a lot from how you conduct yourself.

[Toby]

beng chuan hsing i 5 roads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwBQnWd-GJII preferred your earlier version :p. Just MHO of course. I'd comment in the thread but it'd be easier in person and you'll be in my neck of the woods soon. Remember I'm happy to meet up if we've both got the time, just shoot me an email ...

[Baqualin]

hi ya'all,

chen xin jia 83 tai chi chuan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66uMe_SJILc

NICE really nice Bruce;)

leg conditioning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DGQmwT9ycI

beng chuan hsing i 5 roads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwBQnWd-GJI

I like this one better than your earlier version...punches are a lot more powerful and your foward motion is better...just keep thinking from the spine:D

enjoy,

bruce

jkje;gnh;nbe;geu;vnerje

[Toby]

I like this one better than your earlier version...punches are a lot more powerful ...Bruce scares me. He's roughly the same size as my teacher, considerably bigger than me. I think anything he does would be powerful.

OK, in the interests of discussion, why is your stance so narrow finishing each step? That's very different to what you did before. Is that a conscious thing/is there a reason?

And you emphasize the striking hand - what's your intent with your other hand? It seems to pull back. Is that what you're trying to do?

You'd still cream me. If you came at me like that, I'd need some fancy footwork to avoid being pummeled.

[Citong Shifu]

hi ya'all,

chen xin jia 83 tai chi chuan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66uMe_SJILc

leg conditioning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DGQmwT9ycI

beng chuan hsing i 5 roads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwBQnWd-GJI

enjoy,

bruce

Why, thank you SDiscool!

[Citong Shifu]

CS, you're a class act. I wish every student and teacher of CMA displayed a grain of your humility and politeness on this thread. There are many here that could learn a lot from how you conduct yourself.


JP,
Ummmm, was that sarcasm or sincere :D. Sorry for asking, but this thread has rebounded in so many ways that sometimes its hard to tell. If sincere, thank you! I beleieve that its very difficult to pin point our exact lineage/history. Our elders (old time masters) were very secretive. Many things were not recored due to protection of the disciples and other masters from government slayings, clan mass murders, or just survival of the art/legacy for whatever reason/s. Some did make or kept accurate records that were passed through the generations which either were lost in time, destroyed, or eventually surfaced... We see more documentation on style lineage/history/disciple, etc in our modern time, well at least the last 50 years or so... This is mainly due to times are different now and we wont be punished or killed for our association or affiliation with said teacher,school, or style... Also, more written documentation has surfaced since CMA have made there way to America and Europe where they can be highlighted without recourse... Of course, there have been those who have abused this by adding or taking out names or timelines to suit the reputation and styles, with intentions of over shadowing the other arts... Anyway, I'm sure everyone gets my point here. Histories and lineage's are becoming more abundant now and will continue to in the future...

I dont know ST, never met him. I'm sure he's a good person. Furthermore, I'm sure he gives credit were credits due... I dont have time to be smug. I'd rather take that time and develop my art and skill. I like to see other arts and there expressions. Shaolin philosophy teaches us not to define and keep the mind open.

Take care.
CS