Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

JP,
Ummmm, was that sarcasm or sincere :D. Sorry for asking, but this thread has rebounded in so many ways that sometimes its hard to tell. If sincere, thank you! I beleieve that its very difficult to pin point our exact lineage/history. Our elders (old time masters) were very secretive. Many things were not recored due to protection of the disciples and other masters from government slayings, clan mass murders, or just survival of the art/legacy for whatever reason/s. Some did make or kept accurate records that were passed through the generations which either were lost in time, destroyed, or eventually surfaced... We see more documentation on style lineage/history/disciple, etc in our modern time, well at least the last 50 years or so... This is mainly due to times are different now and we wont be punished or killed for our association or affiliation with said teacher,school, or style... Also, more written documentation has surfaced since CMA have made there way to America and Europe where they can be highlighted without recourse... Of course, there have been those who have abused this by adding or taking out names or timelines to suit the reputation and styles, with intentions of over shadowing the other arts... Anyway, I'm sure everyone gets my point here. Histories and lineage's are becoming more abundant now and will continue to in the future...

I dont know ST, never met him. I'm sure he's a good person. Furthermore, I'm sure he gives credit were credits due... I dont have time to be smug. I'd rather take that time and develop my art and skill. I like to see other arts and there expressions. Shaolin philosophy teaches us not to define and keep the mind open.

Take care.
CS

It was sincere. You seem to have come from a well-established lineage but yet you still look at things with an open mind and give us more of the benefit of the doubt than many do here. I appreciate the perspective.

[Baqualin]

Hey CS,
I too feel the same as JP....your a honor to your teachers.....as I've said before I look forward to meeting up with you someday....maybe at one of your tourney's.
Always welcome here.:cool:
BQ

[Citong Shifu]

It was sincere. You seem to have come from a well-established lineage but yet you still look at things with an open mind and give us more of the benefit of the doubt than many do here. I appreciate the perspective.


I'm not judge nor jury, I'm just me! Time spent deveolping is time not wasted. After all, time is all we have. Some more than others. I want to be known for what I am today, not what I could have been tomorrow. I'm sure most of you think the same way, well, obviously, just look at the majority of the thread... Anyway, I would rather be accepted as a fellow martial artist regardless of my background (MA's) apposed to being judged on the basis of my background. As I'm sure all of you wish the same...

Everyone talks about expression/s of CMA, but then quickly reverts back to something not being right. Lets express out point of view's and use objective or contructive criticism to better improve self-development. There's too many CMA's styles for anyone to be completely right or wrong.....

Maybe a new thread will enable more constructive conversation than "Is SD Real". This title continues to flare the conversations.

Lock this thread and lets begin again!!!!

CS

[Citong Shifu]

Hey CS,
I too feel the same as JP....your a honor to your teachers.....as I've said before I look forward to meeting up with you someday....maybe at one of your tourney's.
Always welcome here.:cool:
BQ

Thanks for the kind words. Yeah, I keep you guys informed... We're hoping to hold one in the Fall of 2008.

CS

[Baqualin]

Thanks for the kind words. Yeah, I keep you guys informed... We're hoping to hold one in the Fall of 2008.

CS

Please do!!! I think it would be a fun way to meet!!!


I'm for locking this thread also...500 has been reached and this thread has become a live manifestation of the movie Ground Hog day:)
BQ

[brucereiter]

Bruce scares me. He's roughly the same size as my teacher, considerably bigger than me. I think anything he does would be powerful.

one of the things i have learned from my teacher is to recognize my own attributes ... what are my strengths what are my weakness. refine my strength/build up my weakness



OK, in the interests of discussion, why is your stance so narrow finishing each step? That's very different to what you did before. Is that a conscious thing/is there a reason?
i practice with 2 basic types of stepping the recent clip is a follow step. it just has a different feel to it. i am still trying to understand the difference and the pros/cons of both methods of stepping.



And you emphasize the striking hand - what's your intent with your other hand? It seems to pull back. Is that what you're trying to do?
the "other" hands intention is to bridge (create a opening) does that make sense?

[sean_stonehart]

500 has been reached and this thread has become a live manifestation of the movie Ground Hog day:)
BQ[/B]


HAS NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

Wait... have I said that before? :D

[brucereiter]

jkje;gnh;nbe;geu;vnerje

thank bagualin,

from the spine ... little by little i am getting that.

thanks for checking out the clips.

[brucereiter]

Maybe a new thread will enable more constructive conversation than "Is SD Real". This title continues to flare the conversations.

Lock this thread and lets begin again!!!!

CS

i think the shaolin do conversations should be left on this thread. i wish there was more conversation about how we all practice and apply our understandings of our art. it is interesting for me to hear peoples observations of things i present regardless of them liking it or not.

[kungfujunky]

hey bruce sorry i had to back out man...i can hardly talk and it just would not have been good for me.

we wil definitely hook up in the future!

[Baqualin]

one of the things i have learned from my teacher is to recognize my own attributes ... what are my strengths what are my weakness. refine my strength/build up my weakness


i practice with 2 basic types of stepping the recent clip is a follow step. it just has a different feel to it. i am still trying to understand the difference and the pros/cons of both methods of stepping.

Allows your whole body to move in unison with (behind) the punch....from the spine........takes up the distance with the back foot which is less visible and allows for smoother foward motion with no retreat


the "other" hands intention is to bridge (create a opening) does that make sense?

Correct......hand doesn't actually pull back...the whole body moves up to it as the next punch shoots out from the spine

[Citong Shifu]

i think the shaolin do conversations should be left on this thread. i wish there was more conversation about how we all practice and apply our understandings of our art. it is interesting for me to hear peoples observations of things i present regardless of them liking it or not.

People will be able to continue SD conversation, I was just implying that the current title "Is SD Real" fuels the fire for non-constructive conversation. Another thread could be created like - The Art Of SD - or something like that! Anything that takes the entire subject away from what it has become... Sure, will the thread get conversation like the current thread, of course, but over all, the conversations will be on the different aspects of the art. Remember, The way of Shaolin does not wait for change, but evolves and makes the necessary changes that will enhance the way of Shaolin....

[brucereiter]

Why, thank you SDiscool!

here is my teacher doing:
Fist of the Grand Ultimate Mercy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqQoaMAXaU

[brucereiter]

hey bruce sorry i had to back out man...i can hardly talk and it just would not have been good for me.

we wil definitely hook up in the future!

see ya next time.

[kwaichang]

It is so interesting to see how different Masters do that form I have seen it 4 different ways now. Perhaps this is why there is so much discontent between the upper level people . I would like to see some one from denver do it too just for C/C. This is also contributing to others being so critical of what they see here and on the web, SIGH KC

[kungfujunky]

is that the budha fist form?

i dont recognize it except for a few moves.....

[brucereiter]

It is so interesting to see how different Masters do that form I have seen it 4 different ways now. Perhaps this is why there is so much discontent between the upper level people . I would like to see some one from denver do it too just for C/C.

different teachers learned at different times and in different situations. then they each have their own preference and reason for teaching it the way they do.



This is also contributing to others being so critical of what they see here and on the web, SIGH KC

please elaborate on that comment. i am not sure what you are saying.

best,

bruce

[brucereiter]

is that the budha fist form?

i dont recognize it except for a few moves.....

yes

i have seen a few versions too.

[Flaca]

yes

i have seen a few versions too.

It looks just like the buddha fist I learned. This kata doesn't have the same 'rules' as either pakua or tai chi; it's about the breathing, isn't it?

[Mas Judt]

Bruce is a class act - I was bummed I severely sprained my ankle right before I was supposed to meet him. He demonstrates a good work ethic, and seeks out knowledge from others (which is probably a good thing).

I vote the thread go on...

[kungfujunky]

bruce when do you live denver?

[Citong Shifu]

here is my teacher doing:
Fist of the Grand Ultimate Mercy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqQoaMAXaU

That was really good! He has great control over his movements..

[Judge Pen]

It is so interesting to see how different Masters do that form I have seen it 4 different ways now. Perhaps this is why there is so much discontent between the upper level people . I would like to see some one from denver do it too just for C/C. This is also contributing to others being so critical of what they see here and on the web, SIGH KC

That would be interesting. It certainly is differenat than the way my teachers perform this set. Subtle, but significant in some of the postures and the emphasis on certain moves. Very interesting considering this set has only been taught in SD for about 15 years or so. But some of the moves in this form are almost impossible to do 100% correctly. I'll say although there is a different emphasis on some of the techniques, MG always flows well in his transitions.

[brucereiter]

bruce when do you live denver?
at 2am our bus departs for nm

[brucereiter]

Bruce is a class act - I was bummed I severely sprained my ankle right before I was supposed to meet him. He demonstrates a good work ethic, and seeks out knowledge from others (which is probably a good thing).

I vote the thread go on...

:-) thanks.

[Golden Tiger]

here is my teacher doing:
Fist of the Grand Ultimate Mercy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqQoaMAXaU

Up until 1:32 in the clip, it was balls on with the way Master Sin taught it (note: a few of the hand movements were cut a bit short) but for the most part, it was dead on. I even checked the tape of Master Sin. Now I am not sure what he was doing at 1:32, thats a new twist on it as far as I have seen.

[Golden Tiger]

I see he even put the GL out there......:rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

beng chuan hsing i 5 roads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwBQnWd-GJI


If you can plant the trailing foot a bit more solid, letting the reverberation drive the hips, you might find a bit more power generation. Otherwise, I like that version better than the previous one......but thats just me.:)

[brucereiter]

If you can plant the trailing foot a bit more solid, letting the reverberation drive the hips, you might find a bit more power generation. Otherwise, I like that version better than the previous one......but thats just me.:)

thanks ... i have been playing with the follow step more ...

[brucereiter]

Up until 1:32 in the clip, it was balls on with the way Master Sin taught it (note: a few of the hand movements were cut a bit short) but for the most part, it was dead on. I even checked the tape of Master Sin. Now I am not sure what he was doing at 1:32, thats a new twist on it as far as I have seen.

that is cool that its on track with gmt.
i wonder is it only the few moves around 1.32-1.48 that are different? could gmt have shown him that way?

[AdrianUK]

Hi

I am reading through this thread for the interest alone not to comment and I wondered if someone could verfiy some things

Gm Sin stopped training full time with GM Ie at 18 as a grandmaster of all the systems taught in SD ?

What age did he start training at ?

Thats all, thanks its an interesting read

Regards
Adrian

[mkriii]

Here's the question: have you seen the diplomas or tested him on his fields?

These kinds of statements are generally bull****. Nobody in his right mind would spend the kind of money it would take to get 7 Bachelor's, and however many doctorates he needs. Plus, he'd have spent so much time in school his martial arts must surely suck.

I took more than full-time classloads (5 of those 10 semesters working 40 hrs. w/ 20 hrs. of classes, graduating with a 3.7 GPA[ 4.0 in my subject areas]), and it still took me 5 years to get 2 degrees--going far beyond recommended classloads. So you're looking at probably, I don't know, 2 years for every other degree (since the first two years of coursework are mutually exclusive and would have been covered for his first 2 degrees in all probability. For five more Bachelor's Degrees, that's 2 years each, reaching a total of 10 years. Now, there's not a scholarship on earth that covers that kind of ridiculous achievement. I know, b/c I look for them all to diffray the costs of Grad School, and used them to diffray the costs of Undergraduate work. Not even the GI BIll or a corporate grant cover repeat degrees---there's no way to diffray those costs. So, considering it's about 2,000 dollars per semester (modest, by some standards) for tuition alone, that's 4 semesters per degree in order to graduate in 2 years with each corollary degree. That's a total of 8,000-10000 dollars per degree. So we're looking at something like 50,000 dollars for his bachelor's degrees, and that's the bare minimum at a local school--not an impressive one.

Unless he's a trust fund baby, this kind of money is hard to come by.

(I know you might not think so.....50K over a decade....but it's not just a payment of money. It costs a lot of time. This necessitates freedom of schedule).

First, you have to have the kind of job that will allow you to schedule classes in the afternoon. We're assuming he did this in 10 years. Night school would double that timespan, because you can only take a couple of classes. Now, I work 2 jobs, 7 days a week. I'm at work M-F from 4am to a little past noon. Then I drive down to GSU and I'm at school from 1pm-5:15 pm for 2 grad classes (one TUES/THURS). Then I drive up to Marietta to study martial arts for a couple of hours from 5:30 until about 9 or so. When I'm done, I go home and sleep. I study on M/W/F afternoons, and take naps. EAch night, I find some way to practice MA, whether at school or at home. On weekends, I either work 4am-4pm or 8am-4pm. This gives me barely enough money to afford grad school, MA, rent, my cheap truck, insurance for my cheap truck, a girlfriend (note, the little time [perhaps money] I have outside these activities is usually spent by her)......:D

I'm a hard worker, but I can't see myself keeping this up for more than another year. So, we're saying your teacher is working a fantastic job with flexible hours and great pay, with unlimited funding for his studies, and probably no female friend. He's practically a monk.

Besides. I got my degrees in English and Art. But I can pick up any physics or math textbook and teach myself without the aid of a teacher. Your teacher has committed the college phallusy (fallacy): he's sought achievement not for mental acuity, but for pieces of paper that declare his masculine prowess.

Now, he followed one of them through to a doctorate. Grad school=2 years if you rush through it. I'm rushing through mine, to get done in a year and a half. It's 2,000 dollars per semester for 2 classes. You have to take a total of nine. The coursework is so intensive, that 2 classes keeps you busier than any combination of the 5-6 classes I took as an undergrad. The papers are monumental, and you have to develop your thesis. By this time in my studies, I'm very well educated in English Literature, Victorian studies, and philosophy/history/lit of the Enlightenment. After the in depth analysis I've gotten through my higher level studies, would I ever spend 2,000 dollars per semester in order to re-enter an undergraduate level and receive basic instruction with students not as pledged or interested in the material as I am? Unless it's at Oxford or something, I wouldn't. Not as anything but an instructor......LOL.....

I guess what I'm saying is that this kind of dubious achievement is really tantamount to taking a frying pan and beating yourself over the head. Don't fall for it, b/c you're getting suckered.

BTW, turning back towards SD, away from MRKIII's super-genius-martial-guru, why GM The' would want to learn 7 languages when his English could use some work, go figure......LOL....but now I'm just trolling.


First off GM John Ng escaped mainland china to get to the U.S.. Once here he applied for a student visa. In order to stay in the states he had to remain in school or he would be sent back to where he escaped from. Hence so many degrees. GM Ng's family had money and paid for his schooling. Yes I have seen his diplomas. He didn't have to work because of his family sending him money but he did teach kung fu to a few people for extra money. He is currently a practicing pharamacist in eastern Kentucky @ the local Rite Aid Drug Store. You may stop in and see for yourself if he works there or not. Then you would know he at least has a degree in Pharmacy and I wasn't lying about that. But i assure you he does have the other degrees as well, I've been to his house and have seen them. He has even done accupunture on me and my friend. He is a VERY knowledgable man. He is also happily married and has a son that is attending Eastern Kentucky University. You don't have to believe this if you don't want to. I have nothing to prove nor does he. I know what I have seen. If you know anyone that knows or knew GM Ng from "back in the day" they will tell you all of this. They will also tell you that he know his sh1t. He comes from a wealthy family. The school that he owned and operated in Lexington was Four Seasons United Kung Fu & Wu Shu Academy. He also had a school prior to that in Bowling Green, Kentucky. He came here to the U.S. in or around the late 60's. I probably told more than I should have about his background. If you want to know more than PM me. Of course your going to say you don't care but obviously you do or you wouldn't have posted your comments about him.

[mkriii]

Maybe you should be his PR director. :p


No.....he has his students for that.

[mkriii]

I have heard people refer to their schools a dojos and their teachers sensei in the early years but as more information became available that people started to adopt the chinese terminology instead.I think i have seen it on a few of the websites as well.

I believe it was not until recent years that back east( in some circles) they started calling it KUNG FU.

I also know that on the west coast ,for the most part, just use english terminology.:D

I know it is mostly just refered to as SHAOLIN DO , THE WAY OF SHAOLIN , because it is more than just martialarts ad it really does not matter if you call it Karate or kung fu.

KUNG FU DOES NOT MEAN CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS.

This is crazy. So, can we call Aikido kung fu? Can we call Tang Soo Do kung fu? I was under the impression that the term kung fu meant that it was a art from China? So we can call these other art forms kung fu even though they are from Japan & Korea?

[kungfujunky]

kung fu means mastery through time and effort

karate means way of the china hand



so to answer your question yes you can

aikido kung fu means mastering aikido through time and effort

thx!

[mkriii]

True, kung fu translated means skilled person or one that has skill. The correct term shoud be Wu Shu if your going to be technical and do the translation.

Kungfu

I think the best begining is to define some words. First of all the word "kungfu" (or also gongfu). Usually people consider "kungfu" defining chinese martial art. They are wrong. In China, the word kungfu is used to notice a great level of control or practice. You can have a great kungfu in cooking, dancing, painting...

Wushu

The term "wushu" means martial techniques. It’s a generic word which includes all the kinds of chinese boxes and the different familly of them So if you understand well, having a great "kungfu" in "wushu" just means that you know well wushu. But be careful, knowing lot of martial techniques doesn’t mean you have great kungfu.

[bodhi warrior]

I bet if you went to china to different shaolin schools accross the country everyone would be different. The forms and the way they are executed. How can anyone be for sure what is authentic?

[mkriii]

Yes they are probably different throughout china but I bet they do there forms more fluid and graceful than how SD does their forms. Also the masters in China could probably trace thier true lineage.

[Lamassu]

You must be really bored at work to give such a dam about SD. I mean, you haven't been a student of SD since you were, what 10? Really, who cares anymore? Everybody's just tired of this nonsense; let it go.

[kungfujunky]

Yes they are probably different throughout china but I bet they do there forms more fluid and graceful than how SD does their forms. Also the masters in China could probably trace thier true lineage.

so your whole argument is based off of fluidity of forms?

and who can be 100% about lineage....where is the iron clad prrof for anyones lineage. pictures? letters?

there are no records in CHINA to verify anyones lineage so how does anyone know 100% whats true or not

the answer is no one does.

which brings us back to square one.

please read the thread if you are going to continue to pollute it with your nonsense

[Mas Judt]

Actually, there are a number of systems who not only have their own written records, but verification from other sources, such as county records. China maintained a vast beauacracy for a very long time. Not exactly tracking martial arts schools, but you can often verify who lived where and when. Not absoloutley, but you'd be amazed.

Westerners have made up a lot of crazy sh!t over the years because China was closed. Now it is not only open, but the information is just pouring out. Oddly enough, there has yet to be any evidence or support for SD history and no recognition of Sin The' as THE Shaolin Grandmaster. (You know, the only one in the world according to his website.)

[bodhi warrior]

Yes they are probably different throughout china but I bet they do there forms more fluid and graceful than how SD does their forms. Also the masters in China could probably trace thier true lineage.

:cool
what about dong hai quan's lineage, or the founder of hsing i? Didn't they fake their origins?

[Shaolin Wookie]

After Grandmaster E's death, I realized that while there were many engineers in the world, there was only one Grandmaster of Shaolin...
http://shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html

No claim to a link from the current Shaolin temple, unless of course, someone has found a record of GGM Ie in the temple records.


In 1968, his training was complete and Grandmaster Ie awarded Master Sin Thé the rank of 10th Degree Black Belt and the Grandmaster's Red Belt. Sin Kwang Thé had become the youngest Grandmaster in the history of the Shaolin martial arts!
http://shaolin-do.com/pages/history.php

True statement. Can you name a younger one than him in his late teens/early twenties? LOL......Again, a link to GGM Ie, not to Henan Shaolin Temple.


[It is important to understand the distinction between the grandmaster of the temple and the head abbot. The grandmaster was in charge of the monks' physical progress and the mastery of the martial arts by the warrior monks. The head abbot was in charge of the temple as a whole and the monks' religious and intellectual studies.
http://shaolin-do.com/pages/history.php

Well, unless GGM Ie and GGGM Su Kong are included in HEnan's lineage, Shaolin still has nothing to fear from SD.


[Sin Kwang The is recognized by those who know him as the Shaolin grandmaster..."
http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/pofilegmmam1994.pdf

Hence, the people who know him are Shaolin-Do students, and they refer to him as grandmaster.

If this is your conspiracy theory, it absolutely sucks.

[Shaolin Wookie]

First off GM John Ng escaped mainland china to get to the U.S.. Once here he applied for a student visa. In order to stay in the states he had to remain in school or he would be sent back to where he escaped from. Hence so many degrees. GM Ng's family had money and paid for his schooling. Yes I have seen his diplomas. He didn't have to work because of his family sending him money but he did teach kung fu to a few people for extra money. He is currently a practicing pharamacist in eastern Kentucky @ the local Rite Aid Drug Store. You may stop in and see for yourself if he works there or not. Then you would know he at least has a degree in Pharmacy and I wasn't lying about that. But i assure you he does have the other degrees as well, I've been to his house and have seen them. He has even done accupunture on me and my friend. He is a VERY knowledgable man. He is also happily married and has a son that is attending Eastern Kentucky University. You don't have to believe this if you don't want to. I have nothing to prove nor does he. I know what I have seen. If you know anyone that knows or knew GM Ng from "back in the day" they will tell you all of this. They will also tell you that he know his sh1t. He comes from a wealthy family. The school that he owned and operated in Lexington was Four Seasons United Kung Fu & Wu Shu Academy. He also had a school prior to that in Bowling Green, Kentucky. He came here to the U.S. in or around the late 60's. I probably told more than I should have about his background. If you want to know more than PM me. Of course your going to say you don't care but obviously you do or you wouldn't have posted your comments about him.


I worked with a buddy of mine at the campus kitchens who was on a student visa from Turkey, and did the same thing, LOL......

He didn't want to get sent back to Turkey. I told him he'd save money and time if he just knocked up some chick at a frat party and got married.

Oh, and I wasn't poking at your teacher. I was merely saying that the 7 Degrees is an infamous claim anywhere, b/c of the time allowances, repititions, etc., and I'm still skeptical. I don't care who he is, and I've never heard of him. But then, I studied with a Longfist guy who rented space across the street from a Rite-Aid/Eckerd in Norcross (true)....LOL......he taught Acupressure and Acupuncture as well, but then, you don't exactly need a degree for that. All you have to do is pass a certification test. I know---I administered them when I proctored tests for Thomson Prometric. You could always tell who was going in for the Massage Therapy/Acupressure/Acupuncture tests when they walked through the door. They looked (and smelled) like hippies.

Sorry, TWS. It's true. And I'm sure it's true of you too.....LOL

[Shaolin Wookie]

I bet if you went to china to different shaolin schools accross the country everyone would be different. The forms and the way they are executed. How can anyone be for sure what is authentic?

Actually, you might be surprised. In terms of competition, it's usually the same regurgitation of forms. But then, I'm talking about wushu.

[Citong Shifu]

Just curious, Does SD teach the Shaolin Temple form (tao lu) - Shaolin 72 methods or Shaolin 72 boxing methods? This set has been taught throughout Shaolin kungfu history, both Northern & Southern Shaolin Temple. I have looked through many SD websites and ST site and don't see this form/style listed at all anywhere.

If any SD member knows or could find out please let me know. If not, no big deal. I'm just trying to see what our styles/art share concerning the Fukien SH.T. arts...

I am not familiar with your art's lineage concerning the other various Shaolin Temples of Fukien/Fujian (in that particular era). So, I can't compare my style/s similarities to those branches... However, I am curious to see what we share. This way, I will have something that I can discuss with you guys, if not share some additional thoughts on said style/s...

Take care.
CS

[Mas Judt]

Shaolin Wookie, it is disingenuous to claim that Sin The' does not claim to be THE Shaolin grandmaster. Your entire system, claims to fame and belief system is built on this, and tearing down the actual Shaolin temple by claiming they are all 'modern wushu.'

It's sad really, that when you cannot accept truth, you attempt spin.

[kungfujunky]

Just curious, Does SD teach the Shaolin Temple form (tao lu) - Shaolin 72 methods or Shaolin 72 boxing methods? This set has been taught throughout Shaolin kungfu history, both Northern & Southern Shaolin Temple. I have looked through many SD websites and ST site and don't see this form/style listed at all anywhere.

If any SD member knows or could find out please let me know. If not, no big deal. I'm just trying to see what our styles/art share concerning the Fukien SH.T. arts...

I am not familiar with your art's lineage concerning the other various Shaolin Temples of Fukien/Fujian (in that particular era). So, I can't compare my style/s similarities to those branches... However, I am curious to see what we share. This way, I will have something that I can discuss with you guys, if not share some additional thoughts on said style/s...

Take care.
CS

hey citong its possible we have that...but id have to see it performed to know for sure.

ill check youtube...and ask some of the senior students as well

[Citong Shifu]

hey citong its possible we have that...but id have to see it performed to know for sure.

ill check youtube...and ask some of the senior students as well


KFJ, Thanks. I'm not sure if its on youtube. I could be wrong, if you find a youtube set let me know. I would be interested in seeing it as well...

Thanks.
CS

[kungfujunky]

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tao+lu&search=Search

which one is closest to yours?

[Flaca]

Up until 1:32 in the clip, it was balls on with the way Master Sin taught it (note: a few of the hand movements were cut a bit short) but for the most part, it was dead on. I even checked the tape of Master Sin. Now I am not sure what he was doing at 1:32, thats a new twist on it as far as I have seen.

Even at 1:32, it looks like what I was taught, hands wash the ocean or something like that, and then the step with head wash.

[kwaichang]

I think you need to review with Master Joe if that is how you were taught the form it is different than how I was taught it the differences are there but subtle body turns extra moves the opening sequence is counter clock wise and proceeds above the head slightly etc. KC:confused:

[kungfujunky]

the chen i was shown is different than what bruce is doing (at least section 1)

i am fixing to video it section by section so we can all compare

[Golden Tiger]

that is cool that its on track with gmt.
i wonder is it only the few moves around 1.32-1.48 that are different? could gmt have shown him that way?


Could have been, who knows. But as it has been pointed out, there are a few subtle differences between the two, I was just commenting on the major ones.

SD'ers, pm me your email and I will send you a present (ie. the correct version) when I get the chance.;)

[brucereiter]

the chen i was shown is different than what bruce is doing (at least section 1)

i am fixing to video it section by section so we can all compare

i am sure it is very different, i do it as i have understood it and as i have learned through my practice and study ...

i was at the denver school last year and had a chance to go to a open practice where i met a 4th black and a 2nd black (i do not remember their names) and we did our chen 83 side by side ... we were doing very different things. i do this slightly different than my teacher also.

when a difference in performance comes up my teacher will generally ask if i can generate more speed and power and if i can apply it. if i cant i had better just do it exactly like i was taught.

i would like to see a video ...

best,

bruce

[brucereiter]

Could have been, who knows. But as it has been pointed out, there are a few subtle differences between the two, I was just commenting on the major ones.

SD'ers, pm me your email and I will send you a present (ie. the correct version) when I get the chance.;)

hi gt,

i would respectfully say, your use of the word "correct" implies that the other is incorrect i think that is not the case:

one of the following is true.

a. gmt taught a slightly different version of the form to smg than he did to eml. implying they are both "correct" yet different.

or

b. smg misunderstood what he was taught and teaches it a different way than he was taught.

i think it is a.
==========================================

another example to show how these differences can occur is gmt made a video for smg and smg does the material as it is shown on the video gmt made for him and the way he was shown in private lessons. once when eml and smg were working on said material eml noted some differences and made corrections to smg and smg said this is what gmt taught him i have it on video ... and eml said the same thing.
which person is doing it "correctly"

[kungfujunky]

i think a lot of these differences are personal interpretation as well as physicality differences in the practitioners.

for myself both eml and ems do forms differently because of physiological differences.

it is a given that the forms would morph and change as i believe they should since shaolin is a living art.

if you check youtube it is nearly impossible to find 1 form performed the same by any 2 people.

[kungfujunky]

also bruce just to note gmt does taping of new forms just once (usually in lexington) and then that video is what is given out to the different schools he visits.

so in theory the video smg has is the same as eml or the em's here in denver and so on

[Citong Shifu]

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tao+lu&search=Search

which one is closest to yours?

None! LOL. That was alot of wushu and movie clips I guess... Well, ok. Let me know if you hear of this set in the SD curriculum..

Thanks.
CS

[kungfujunky]

see thats the problem lol

is it a 5 animal set? do you have any clips of even just a little bit of it done by you or a student of yours?

[Flaca]

I think you need to review with Master Joe if that is how you were taught the form it is different than how I was taught it the differences are there but subtle body turns extra moves the opening sequence is counter clock wise and proceeds above the head slightly etc. KC:confused:

I don't do the form the same manner as Grooms does it, my body moves very differently; however, I wouldn't say the movements themselves were different moves, if you see what I mean. My movements are slower and more rigid; not that I will ever look like Eric Y, but that's what I shoot for. Feel free to come down here and correct me.:)

BTW, what on earth are we all doing here on Saturday night??? :eek:

[kwaichang]

You should know have fun, and sorry I did not imply you did the form like MG
KC

[brucereiter]

also bruce just to note gmt does taping of new forms just once (usually in lexington) and then that video is what is given out to the different schools he visits.

so in theory the video smg has is the same as eml or the em's here in denver and so on

that is not always the case. many times as gmt teachs smg new material at smg's home or at the school gmt/smg will video it for smg reference.

[Golden Tiger]

i would respectfully say, your use of the word "correct" implies that the other is incorrect i think that is not the case:


Point taken. Perhaps I should have choosen " the version that was first taught out circa 93 when Master Sin introduced the form to the "Sunday Rank Advancement" class which at the time, contained 98% of all the upper level students. Granted, M. Grooms was not taking this class so that might account for the differences in some of the movements in the way he learned it.

I would also like to make it clear that I rarely make the "this it right, that is wrong " distinction. I have been around long enough to know that the forms are far from static when taught out and for those that get really hung up on that are missing the essence of the forms in the first place. I merely point out the differences from the perspective of learning them first hand, over many classes (as opposed to the seminar/cram sessions/videos) from Master Sin, the first time they were taught out.

[kungfujunky]

that is not always the case. many times as gmt teachs smg new material at smg's home or at the school gmt/smg will video it for smg reference.



ok so that could be where the differences are coming from.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Shaolin Wookie, it is disingenuous to claim that Sin The' does not claim to be THE Shaolin grandmaster. Your entire system, claims to fame and belief system is built on this, and tearing down the actual Shaolin temple by claiming they are all 'modern wushu.'

It's sad really, that when you cannot accept truth, you attempt spin.

Um, is it disingenuous?:confused: Would it be disingenuous to say the war in Iraq is unjust, and has left both Iraq and the U.S. in worse situations than they were originally in when Sadaam was alive and in power? Is it disingenuous to say I would like to see President Bush in a cage match with Chuck Liddel, no rules? Or behind bars? LOL, I don't have to believe everything Pres. Bush says, or believe it represents my POV, or anyone else's for that matter.

I don't have to agree with GM The' or JAmes Halladay or any of the PR guys for Shaolin-Do.

Here's the problem with some of you guys: you either want us to be A) a die-hard devotee that believes everything hands-down (like KC) or B) Mas Judt--a die-hard naysayer that believes nothing SD says is of any value, and is all deceit.

There is a middle path (LOL), where you take the information you're given, weigh it against other information available, take as tenable that information which is corroborated, and call bull**** on the rest.

I prefer the middle road.

It's why some SD guys think I'm disrespectful, and some of you guys (MK) think I'm wishy-washy.

But for those of you who comfortably sit back and judge SD like Mas Judt (that is, speaking with no experience), you'll have to forgive me when I say your words are like f@rts in the wind, such as you are speaking with no experience and no knowledge of it, only what gets recycled in PR. You are in fact the longarms of the propaganda, and its tools. Or maybe just Tools in general.....wink.....wink.....

[Mas Judt]

Be careful when you assume, Shaolin Wookie....

But I guess I really can't expect more. The fundamental issue is veracity, and the lack of it has been demonstrated by SD plenty of times on this forum.

[Citong Shifu]

see thats the problem lol

is it a 5 animal set? do you have any clips of even just a little bit of it done by you or a student of yours?

No, its not a 5 animal form. Shaolin long arm boxing set. Let me see what I can download.

Thanks.
CS

[brucereiter]

I would also like to make it clear that I rarely make the "this it right, that is wrong " distinction. I have been around long enough to know that the forms are far from static when taught out and for those that get really hung up on that are missing the essence of the forms in the first place. I merely point out the differences from the perspective of learning them first hand, over many classes (as opposed to the seminar/cram sessions/videos) from Master Sin, the first time they were taught out.



smg told me a story about gmt and his brother master hiang having a disagreement about a hand position in a form (i.e. one said it was a fist the other said it was a open palm)
they contacted ggm ie and from what i understand the brothers we admonished for the disagreement they had as a waste of time saying both were "correct" it depends on what you are going to do with it as to which one you chose ...
(i am retelling a story so i may have confused facts ... :-) )

this leads me to a few questions:

-should students do the form the exact same way as their teacher?

-at what point in ones training can you make a decision to perform or apply a form with your own understanding vs. trying to have your teachers understanding?

-should the forms in our system be dynamic so they can adapt to different people with different skiil set/needs/attributes ...

or

-should the forms in our system be done exactly as they are taught to preserve them as they were many years ago? like a library.

[BoulderDawg]

I didn't even know until the other day That GM Sin had a brother(Haing Kwang The) and he calls himself a GM and has a school in Kentucky.

Why don't the brothers acknowledge each other?

Also, on Haing The's web site it mentions that Master Ie died in 1968. If this is correct then Sin was taught be a dead man for 8 years. :eek:

Haing also mentions that Ie was his Grandfather. Information I haven't seen from MG Sin.

http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/history2.html

********

In any case the worst thing here is that there appears to have been some sort of rift between the brothers.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I didn't even know until the other day That GM Sin had a brother(Haing Kwang The) and he calls himself a GM and has a school in Kentucky.

Why don't the brothers acknowledge each other?

Also, on Haing The's web site it mentions that Master Ie died in 1968. If this is correct then Sin was taught be a dead man for 8 years. :eek:

Haing also mentions that Ie was his Grandfather. Information I haven't seen from MG Sin.

http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/history2.html

********

In any case the worst thing here is that there appears to have been some sort of rift between the brothers.


It concerns the passing on of the grandmaster-title, the revelation that GM Ie had died (when it was learned, told by whom, to whom), GM Hiang deciding to take some of GM The's students and starting his own school due to different teaching methodologies and ethics, and other things. I heard several versions of it--it's a squabble that doesn't belong here on this forum, isn't even that big of a deal, and has, apparently, been somewhat settled. It's been rehashed on this thread numerous times, always with some emotions for those involved.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Does anyone know a good resource for Omei Crane? Vids? Books?

Many sources cite Emei Shan as a center for crane studies, and our three brown belt crane forms come from the Omei crane......but I can't find any other tangible sources for Emei crane outside of our information. All those outside sources don't point to anything tangible. It's wierd.

[kungfujunky]

Does anyone know a good resource for Omei Crane? Vids? Books?

Many sources cite Emei Shan as a center for crane studies, and our three brown belt crane forms come from the Omei crane......but I can't find any other tangible sources for Emei crane outside of our information. All those outside sources don't point to anything tangible. It's wierd.

if you check hsiangs site you see he has taught all 18 forms of the crane system. might be worth investigating to see if any of the other forms he taught out resemble any other systems cranes.

of course that would require help from a hiang student...........

[BoulderDawg]

I heard several versions of it--it's a squabble that doesn't belong here on this forum, isn't even that big of a deal, and has, apparently, been somewhat settled. It's been rehashed on this thread numerous times, always with some emotions for those involved.

I think it very much belongs on this thread. It provides insight to the lineage and gives us a bit of history of the movement.

As far as being rehashed on this thread:

There are many posts here going back for a long period of time. Many people on this board haven't been here that long. Also, many of us don't keep up with the thread every day. You have thousands of posts here. Of course material is going to be rehashed.

Finally "Those involved"? Who involved would read this other than the The brothers?

[kungfujunky]

didnt you quit bdawg?

you said you were going to.....

and the the brothers squabble was silly and is over. they've agreed to disagree and ignore the other.

end of story. its not our business....just like its not our business if you got in a fight with your family.

has nothing to do with kung fu

[BoulderDawg]

didnt you quit bdawg?
you said you were going to.....
and the the brothers squabble was silly and is over. they've agreed to disagree and ignore the other.
end of story. its not our business....just like its not our business if you got in a fight with your family.
has nothing to do with kung fu

I haven't participated in CSC for almost a year now. But I still have friends there and one of them told me about this. Even though I'm no longer involved it's interesting to discuss and debate SLD.

I have no problem with keeping family disagreements private but in this case I think the brother's rift effects the way each tells the history of their art. To totally ignore the exsistance of each other just because of their family problems is silly.
Although they may hate each other both contributed to the formation of modern SLD and should be recognized as part of the lineage.

[BM2]

smg told me a story about gmt and his brother master hiang having a disagreement about a hand position in a form (i.e. one said it was a fist the other said it was a open palm)
they contacted ggm ie and from what i understand the brothers we admonished for the disagreement they had as a waste of time saying both were "correct" it depends on what you are going to do with it as to which one you chose ...
(i am retelling a story so i may have confused facts ... :-) )

this leads me to a few questions:

-should students do the form the exact same way as their teacher?

-at what point in ones training can you make a decision to perform or apply a form with your own understanding vs. trying to have your teachers understanding?

-should the forms in our system be dynamic so they can adapt to different people with different skiil set/needs/attributes ...

or

-should the forms in our system be done exactly as they are taught to preserve them as they were many years ago? like a library.


Ok, let me to tell you first hand what GMT said once in class. He said that he was teaching a class when a student said " When you taught this last year it was a head block with a closed fist and now you are showing it as a head block with an open hand, which is it?"
GMT replied that it was just a head block, do it how ever you want. He then told the class that the guy was missing the real part which was the strike that went with the block but was focused on how you hold your hand during the block. He added that Master Ie would also would show things differently sometimes and that no one ever said anything but did it the new way.

[QUOTE=shaolindoiscool;811170]this leads me to a few questions:

-should students do the form the exact same way as their teacher?

Master Hiang said he didn't want us to be like robots ( he actually said R2D2 ) as we all can not do things exactly the same. However he had the length of time it should take to do the forms. He felt that some try to rush through them to be the first one to finish.

[kwaichang]

Thanks I do believe GMT I will TELL YOU WHY.
1. If he teaches a form we typically get a written verse of the form.
2. It is in Chinese and English
3. The history is usually included as well as the founders name etc.
4. I take that info and google or what ever it and check the history.
5. I see how the GMT story coordinates with the "Historic" view.
6. I list discrepancies if any.
7. I assess whether the discrepancies have merit, for example was it a date or founders name etc.
8. I alot a score of accuracy is 80% correct or 99% correct ?
9. After all this I check for the Shaolin connection.
How many of you guys who do real CMA do this or do your teachers drop a name and you believe it.
So if I am a "believer" after all of what I do then I guess I am. Likewise I alot the form a number 1=5 for difficulty and train on it when I train on other forms less in the number system this way I can keep most of my material up to date.
If all this adds up and the form is usable for example I find the Mantis and Tigers mor applicable than Budha Fist then I assume or know "you guys choose which word to use" it is the real deal. I dont care that the Flavor or fluidity is missing I know with time it will occur. Probably not to you guys standards though. KC :)

[Shaolin Wookie]

didnt you quit bdawg?

you said you were going to.....

and the the brothers squabble was silly and is over. they've agreed to disagree and ignore the other.

end of story. its not our business....just like its not our business if you got in a fight with your family.

has nothing to do with kung fu

Exactly. It might have been martially related, but I'm sure there were factors many of us do not know about that were not martially related, and we ought to let it lie simply out of respect.;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Ok, let me to tell you first hand what GMT said once in class. He said that he was teaching a class when a student said " When you taught this last year it was a head block with a closed fist and now you are showing it as a head block with an open hand, which is it?"
GMT replied that it was just a head block, do it how ever you want. He then told the class that the guy was missing the real part which was the strike that went with the block but was focused on how you hold your hand during the block. He added that Master Ie would also would show things differently sometimes and that no one ever said anything but did it the new way.


this leads me to a few questions:

-should students do the form the exact same way as their teacher?

Master Hiang said he didn't want us to be like robots ( he actually said R2D2 ) as we all can not do things exactly the same. However he had the length of time it should take to do the forms. He felt that some try to rush through them to be the first one to finish.

That's what my teacher basically tells me, often when I ask some question about angles, timing, hand position--it's the "what exactly are you doing?" kind of response that forces you to evaluate the motion. While it might not lead to general conformity in terms of form--the little details, anyways--**** me if it doesn't make you think....LOL.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Thanks I do believe GMT I will TELL YOU WHY.
1. If he teaches a form we typically get a written verse of the form.
2. It is in Chinese and English
3. The history is usually included as well as the founders name etc.
4. I take that info and google or what ever it and check the history.
5. I see how the GMT story coordinates with the "Historic" view.
6. I list discrepancies if any.
7. I assess whether the discrepancies have merit, for example was it a date or founders name etc.
8. I alot a score of accuracy is 80% correct or 99% correct ?
9. After all this I check for the Shaolin connection.
How many of you guys who do real CMA do this or do your teachers drop a name and you believe it.
So if I am a "believer" after all of what I do then I guess I am. Likewise I alot the form a number 1=5 for difficulty and train on it when I train on other forms less in the number system this way I can keep most of my material up to date.
If all this adds up and the form is usable for example I find the Mantis and Tigers mor applicable than Budha Fist then I assume or know "you guys choose which word to use" it is the real deal. I dont care that the Flavor or fluidity is missing I know with time it will occur. Probably not to you guys standards though. KC :)

I agree with you on that issue. We do have our discrepancies though. I'd have to say I'd agree with you far more than I'd disagree. But we just have different personalities and thought patterns. No biggie.:)

[mkriii]

You must be really bored at work to give such a dam about SD. I mean, you haven't been a student of SD since you were, what 10? Really, who cares anymore? Everybody's just tired of this nonsense; let it go.


No, actually I was 14. Get it right.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I would say he's got more CMA flavor compared to typical SD folks, but it's hard to tell with the form all chopped up like that.

That mantis stance he does looks gay.

I went back and watched that video. It's really, really bad. I've seen much better firsthand from green belts--especially the Fei Hu Chu Tung. Shoot, the videos I had of myself doing it were 10X better. I wonder why he chose those forms to display, when he's not very good at them. His drunken was much, much better; and no doubt, he's very good. But he's not very good at SD....LOL.....

[DPL]

The fundamental issue is veracity, and the lack of it has been demonstrated by SD plenty of times on this forum.

Mas Judt, ladies and gentlemen, back once more to thump his Great Bible of Truth at the uneducated masses. The premier living example of the phrase 'strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.' Step right up and see him before he jaunts off to tilt at another windmill. But step with care - he's grouchy. It's not easy fighting for Truth, Justice and the Shaolin Way 24/7/365.

And on a slightly more serious note... 'the fundamental issue is veracity'?? C'mon, dude, do you think it makes you sound smart to use them thar big words? Just say the basic problem is truth. But mayhap you are suffering from a fundamental inability to overcome your tendency towards garrulity.

[Mas Judt]

Well golly, I never realized that was a 'big' word. I'll try to keep it simple for you.

When you sell yourself using a story that is not true, you are misrepresenting (I'm sorry, was that word too difficult to understand for you DPL?) your product/service.

Obfuscating (Gosh darnit, there I go again, using English) when confronted with challenges does not make it better.

I've clearly stated my case repeatedly, no need to rehash it. But there is certainly issues of integrity and honor, that are often ignored by SD as a group.

Having a wonky lineage that is hard to verify is not unheard of. But claiming to be EVERYTHING, the ultimate resource, THE grandmaster, et al... is just silly. Sad, really.

Oh, and I apologize for using words that are too big for you DPL. It's just most of the folks on the board, including a few SDers seem to have a substantially higher IQ than you. So go on off and continue being a tool, while I chat with the adults.

[DPL]

I've clearly stated my case repeatedly, no need to rehash it. But there is certainly issues of integrity and honor, that are often ignored by SD as a group.


LOL - while you're using those big words, try stringing them together with proper grammar. 'Is' is generally used with singular constructions, unless of course you're too busy congratulating yourself about how smart you are, at which point I guess it doesn't matter as you're sort of painting the clown face on yourself.

We're all painfully familiar with your 'case', as you high-handedly remind everyone that you can't see how we live with ourselves about once a month. One thing I've learned is that anytime someone preaches about capital-T Truth as much as you do, they've usually got some fairly large untruths lurking around in their closet.

But hey, maybe you're the exception who proves the rule and you're merely a dull, repetitive - but very honest! - narcissist who likes to hear himself type.

The concept of truth has always been a strange benchmark for humanity anyway - pretty much all daily existence is a series of misdirections and lies, from body language to tone of voice to little white lies and big black ones. How many people in corporate America are themselves with their co-workers? How many married people are themselves with their spouses?

But wait, I shouldn't speak of truth as it's your territory and I'm sure you're just bursting to explain it to us all again.

[Mas Judt]

Nah, I'll stick to talking to the adults.

You know, repeating the same action over and over again and expecting a different response is a definition for insanity. However, when talking to the mentally challenged, you can simply exhaust yourself. So I'll politely ask people to just go through the thread before I go insane or get just bored.

You chose your path. Good luck with that.

[Judge Pen]

You know, repeating the same action over and over again and expecting a different response is a definition for insanity.


They must have left that definition out of my copy of the DSM-IV. I thought it was just being persistent, stubborn or just hard-headed. :D

[sean_stonehart]

They must have left that definition out of my copy of the DSM-IV. I thought it was just being persistent, stubborn or just hard-headed. :D

I thought it was being Southern...

[Mas Judt]

As a lawyer, JP, your objective is to prove a point of view, regardless of the facts. I'd like to envision you as a young Atticus Finch, ready to put the hairy-monk b!tch-slap on the criminal element.

[Baqualin]

As a lawyer, JP, your objective is to prove a point of view, regardless of the facts. I'd like to envision you as a young Atticus Finch, ready to put the hairy-monk b!tch-slap on the criminal element.

Hey Mas,
Considering your background in Indonesian Martial Arts, we should be able to get into some very interesting conversations regarding the history and development of CMA as related to SD or Shaolin in general. I'm curious to hear what you've seen and learned in your studies.
BQ

[DPL]

You know, repeating the same action over and over again and expecting a different response is a definition for insanity. However, when talking to the mentally challenged, you can simply exhaust yourself. So I'll politely ask people to just go through the thread before I go insane or get just bored.

Good decision. Let them seek out your truth-thumping in past posts. That's exactly what I was trying to get you to do.

[oasis]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48751

pay attention to after the 55 second mark. enjoy :)

[Mas Judt]

There was a great 'scholarly' article written in JAMA some years back that detailed eitimology of MA terms in the 'Nusantra' (Indonesia/Malaysia) - it also classified the types of CMA found.

Like anywhere there is really good stuff and really bad stuff in Indonesia. There is also:

CMA that kept to itself within the Chinese community

CMA that added JMA influence (because the teachers did not teach openly)

CMA that added IMA influence (Rare)

CMA that got absorbed directly as a 'new' style of Silat (such as Nanquan turning into Mustika Kwitang.)

Unfortunately, it is very hard to offer up an analysis of SD, as so much of it is 'borrowed' material, much of it contradictory, and taught incomplete (much like Modern wushu in some regards - that is NOT a slam.)

It was not uncommon for certain schools both in China and Indonesia to become 'forms factories' in order to string along students. However, the disparate nature of all the content is very unusual - at least according to my research/experience.

It would be very interesting if we could contact related schools in Indonesia.

more later.

[Baqualin]

There was a great 'scholarly' article written in JAMA some years back that detailed eitimology of MA terms in the 'Nusantra' (Indonesia/Malaysia) - it also classified the types of CMA found.

Like anywhere there is really good stuff and really bad stuff in Indonesia. There is also:

CMA that kept to itself within the Chinese community

CMA that added JMA influence (because the teachers did not teach openly)

CMA that added IMA influence (Rare)

CMA that got absorbed directly as a 'new' style of Silat (such as Nanquan turning into Mustika Kwitang.)

Unfortunately, it is very hard to offer up an analysis of SD, as so much of it is 'borrowed' material, much of it contradictory, and taught incomplete (much like Modern wushu in some regards - that is NOT a slam.)

Not taken that way

It was not uncommon for certain schools both in China and Indonesia to become 'forms factories' in order to string along students. However, the disparate nature of all the content is very unusual - at least according to my research/experience.

I would like to see more on this.....you used the word was?

It would be very interesting if we could contact related schools in Indonesia.

Yes it would.....there's mention in some of the Indo. publications of one of GMIe's colleagues who was teaching Tiger Crane to a Silat school (info sharing between a group of schools) I have more info on this if I can find what I did with it.

more later.

sdgkloinponeb

[Mas Judt]

You are correct, it still is.

Forms training is not the real 'kung fu.' Had this conversation with a Modern Wushu guy once, it drove him nuts.

[Judge Pen]

You are correct, it still is.

Forms training is not the real 'kung fu.' Had this conversation with a Modern Wushu guy once, it drove him nuts.

I understand its a component of kung fu training, but not the "end all be-all" of kung fu training. But your statement seems to imply that its not even a component of "real kung fu". Care to elaborate?

[SDJerry]

You are correct, it still is.

Forms training is not the real 'kung fu.' Had this conversation with a Modern Wushu guy once, it drove him nuts.

Forms are nothing more than a grouping of different hands. Its no different than a boxer stringing together jabs, hooks, and uppercuts with proper footwork. Practicing the form alone would not make you a boxer however all the techniques you need to become one are in there. So IMO forms training is an important PART of kung fu training but not kung fu training as a whole.

[MasterKiller]

Forms are nothing more than a grouping of different hands. Its no different than a boxer stringing together jabs, hooks, and uppercuts with proper footwork. Practicing the form alone would not make you a boxer however all the techniques you need to become one are in there. So IMO forms training is an important PART of kung fu training but not kung fu training as a whole.

The boxing-to-kung fu analogy is not apples to apples.

A lot of kung fu forms contain moves that have absolutely no fighting application at all. Some moves are just for balance training, some are for exercise, and some are symbolic. Besides some real applications are so hidden that the form does not resemble the application at all.

When a boxer shadowboxes, all his techniques are 100% about fighting and look exactly like their application.

[BM2]

Didn't Bruce Lee say it best when he compared just doing forms to practicing swimming while on land?
And wasn't he far ahead of everyone else with MMA? I read (sorry,don't recall the actor's name) an '80s IKF article with his nemesis in Enter The Dragon,they both wanted to have grappling in the final fight scene but it was impossible when the actor had to wear that claw. Too bad that Jean Machado wasn't around back then.

[SDJerry]

The boxing-to-kung fu analogy is not apples to apples.

A lot of kung fu forms contain moves that have absolutely no fighting application at all. Some moves are just for balance training, some are for exercise, and some are symbolic. Besides some real applications are so hidden that the form does not resemble the application at all.

When a boxer shadowboxes, all his techniques are 100% about fighting and look exactly like their application.

If you look at the basic concept, they're both apples. Every part of a form has purpose or it would not be in there. The purpose might be to develop leg strength or balance but each is a requirement to be a good martial artist. I could have expanded upon my analogy to include different aspects but I didnt' feel it was necessary to get the point across.

A boxer trains the jab, it trains the hook, etc.... just like we should train different hands 'outside of the forms'. You have the form, you see the technique, now drill it outside the form so you can use it against a restiting opponent. Agree?

[tattooedmonk]

If you look at the basic concept, they're both apples. Every part of a form has purpose or it would not be in there. The purpose might be to develop leg strength or balance but each is a requirement to be a good martial artist. I could have expanded upon my analogy to include different aspects but I didnt' feel it was necessary to get the point across.

A boxer trains the jab, it trains the hook, etc.... just like we should train different hands 'outside of the forms'. You have the form, you see the technique, now drill it outside the form so you can use it against a restiting opponent. Agree?I agree . To expand on what you were saying , a boxer, when shadow boxing, bobs, weaves, does different footwork, etc. more than just punch. It ALL is meant to be transfered to fighting.

They are both apples , just different kinds of apples.:D

I would say that this is one of the problems with traditional arts, the applications and the way that the information is transfered is more or less lost. I personally believe that the forms should not be taught until last.( in some cases not at all).

All of the basics , conditioning, techniques, drills , applications , etc. should be taught first . The forms are just catalogs of the material . I believe that they are useful,just misunderstood.If the forms were taught /used the way they were meant to be, we would not be having this conversation.:D



Most students ( even teachers)who practice/teach forms do not know how to break them down and distinguish between what is used for application, conditioning, symbolism, etc, just like MK said. But this does not mean that they are not valuable or important to the training.:cool:

[ricardocameron]

On History channels's Human Weapon:Kung Fu episode...The Police kungfu demonstrated a front snap kick we SD'ers use. I loved the power-demo- breakdown. 1000 lbs. of force? Nice. :D

Also, halfway through the program @ Dengfeng, they show footage of the Chinese Army in the early parts of 20th century performing Block/Punch"Short Forms" very nearly as is done in Shaolin-Do! Nah, couldn't be....:rolleyes: Ah, Viva la Validation!:p

"Fall down seven times, Get up eight!"

[NJM]

On History channels's Human Weapon:Kung Fu episode...The Police kungfu demonstrated a front snap kick we SD'ers use. I loved the power-demo- breakdown. 1000 lbs. of force? Nice.


You mean you guys do toe-kicks to the face too? Wow, I guess Wushu isn't the only style that breaks KF fundamentals.

[Shaolin Wookie]

You mean you guys do toe-kicks to the face too? Wow, I guess Wushu isn't the only style that breaks KF fundamentals.

No, we don't do toe-kicks to the face. GM The' once said--"It's a toe-kick. Duh! You kick the toes with a toe-kick." We only do butterfly twists to the face while wielding a judo katana.

[ricardocameron]

Why don't you empty your cup a little?.....:confused:


You mean you guys do toe-kicks to the face too? Wow, I guess Wushu isn't the only style that breaks KF fundamentals.

* When you're talking about fighting, as it is, with no rules, well then, baby you'd better train every part of your body!
o Bruce Lee: The Lost Interview (1971)

Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it.

* p.44, Bruce Lee: fighting spirit, by Bruce Thomas, Frog, Ltd.(1994)

* Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
o Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey (2000)
o Here, Lee was recanting lines he wrote for his short lived role on the TV series Longstreet.

* Like everyone else you want to learn the way to win, but never to accept the way to lose — to accept defeat. To learn to die is to be liberated from it. So when tomorrow comes you must free your ambitious mind and learn the art of dying!
o Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey (2000)

[kwaichang]

I liked the kung fu weapon thing it confirmed alot of what GMT has said in SD. KC

[ricardocameron]

I liked the kung fu weapon thing it confirmed alot of what GMT has said in SD. KC

ya, those guys seemed to really like the old shaolin. they even noticed similarities to judo in kung fu. i wonder if they'll look into it again.

[BoulderDawg]

You mean you guys do toe-kicks to the face too? Wow, I guess Wushu isn't the only style that breaks KF fundamentals.

I saw that show and was wondering who taught those guys to lead with the toes.

They did have one master on there who really looked good...had a good roundhouse anyway.

I could have done without the jumping off the buildings and such.

The "match" at the end was not very good.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I saw that show and was wondering who taught those guys to lead with the toes.

They did have one master on there who really looked good...had a good roundhouse anyway.

I could have done without the jumping off the buildings and such.

The "match" at the end was not very good.

Only time I'd lead with the toes, I'd be wearing steel-toe boots....LOL.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Why don't you empty your cup a little?.....:confused:

Nope. Gotta build up my tolerance for drunken boxing and all....LOL.....

I was just playin', since everyone here thinks GM The' taught us all wrong.

"His name is Wimp Lo. We trained him wrong, as a joke."

"Wanna see my face to your foot style?"

[sean_stonehart]

Only time I'd lead with the toes, I'd be wearing steel-toe boots....LOL.....

Actually Reeboks or the hard leather soled shoes that JP & others wear are great for toe kicks

[kwaichang]

When i 1st studied Shoto Kan we were taught a toe kick we had to kick the heavy bag with it it hurt then but stopped later ever seen a close up of Barishnikovs foot ??? looks like it would hurt. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I always wear skater shoes for the most part, and they've got a good solid flat surface with thick rubber soles. You can bet any kick I'd deliver would make use of that front corner....lol.....

[tattooedmonk]

I do not think that the toe kick actually means with the toes. From a physiological stand point, if you were not wearing hard toed shoes you would break your toes.Your toes are not designed for that type of abuse. From what I understand it just means the ball of your foot which is where the toes begin. Just my understanding. As you know, in SD, there is no training with shoes on in the school. Try kicking anything , no matter how tough you are , with your toes and you will see what I mean.

[sean_stonehart]

I do not think that the toe kick actually means with the toes. From a physiological stand point, if you were not wearing hard toed shoes you would break your toes.Your toes are not designed for that type of abuse. From what I understand it just means the ball of your foot which is where the toes begin. Just my understanding. As you know, in SD, there is no training with shoes on in the school. Try kicking anything , no matter how tough you are , with your toes and you will see what I mean.

Go watch Uechi-ryu people condition their toes for kicking & tell 'em it's wrong...


Go on... I double dawg dare you... :D:eek:

[kwaichang]

Another misnomer I am in SD I train with shoes Boots and barefoot. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Exactly. I've never heard of a toe kick, but have noticed that most wushu schools do it (perhaps it has some kind of aesthetic value? or it's linked to the fact that they're wearing shoes [however, they're really flimsy shoes]--and my Longfist teacher once or twice told me not to curl my toes back, at which I kind of smiled quizzicly), and I've seen some TKD and Karate dudes who have joined SD as beginners do the same thing. I think they do top-of-the-foot kicks as well when they roundhouse, but SD insists on ball of the foot.

What's with that? You can kick much harder with the ball of the foot, plus, it drives up into the target viciously. What's with the toe thing? Is it a "shinpad" and "footguard" is kinder than a proper kick kind of mentality?

[tattooedmonk]

Another misnomer I am in SD I train with shoes Boots and barefoot. KCInside the school?? Because that is what I posted. The only person I have ever seen wear shoes in the school in GMT

[tattooedmonk]

Exactly. I've never heard of a toe kick, but have noticed that most wushu schools do it (perhaps it has some kind of aesthetic value? or it's linked to the fact that they're wearing shoes [however, they're really flimsy shoes]--and my Longfist teacher once or twice told me not to curl my toes back, at which I kind of smiled quizzicly), and I've seen some TKD and Karate dudes who have joined SD as beginners do the same thing. I think they do top-of-the-foot kicks as well when they roundhouse, but SD insists on ball of the foot.

What's with that? You can kick much harder with the ball of the foot, plus, it drives up into the target viciously. What's with the toe thing? Is it a "shinpad" and "footguard" is kinder than a proper kick kind of mentality?In addition if you plantar flex as you pull your toes back it locks all the bones of the feet in the proper position which increases the strength of the kick and eliminates the possibility of breaking the toes, in addition it gives you an added few inches of reach , not failing to mention proper alignment through the whole kinetic chain of the hip and leg.

and I am sure that using the toes or top of the foot and it being less vicious / powerful for use in sparring /class is a factor.

[tattooedmonk]

Go watch Uechi-ryu people condition their toes for kicking & tell 'em it's wrong...


Go on... I double dawg dare you... :D:eek:LMAO This type of training/ conditioning is not good for the toes. You and I both know this.:D

[BlueTravesty]

When I was learning Kung Fu (MyJhong LawHorn/ Mizong Luohan) we were taught that a front snap kick was only for two targets- the groin, and the chin. This kick used the top of the foot more than it did the toes.

I watched my friend's Tang Soo Do class once, and they were doing some SICK toe kicks... friggin' round kicks with the toes. It was hard to watch.

The only "ball of the foot" kick we were taught was the push kick, which was very similar to Muay Thai's foot jab, (and was only for the torso or hips) or the sidekick to the head (unlike the "normal" sidekick which used the heel.)

[Leto]

It may not be good for your toes, but the toe tip kick (mae geri) is used in several styles of Okinawan and Japanese karate. Some consider it a "special" technique of karate. Yes, you are literally supposed to kick with the tips of the toes, especially the big toe. Conditioning for this hurts like heck. It's meant to be a "piercing" technique, delivered to soft targets, almost like a pressure point strike. I always preferred yoko geri, kicking with the outside edge of the foot. Front kicks with the ball of the foot and thrusting kicks with the heel are also in karate, so it's not like the toe tip kick is the only way, but it's the one that gets the most attention earliest on. Maybe because it's the hardest to use and takes the longest to condition for.

[kwaichang]

mY MISTAKE ttm i TRAIN OUT SIDE ALOT AND DO NOT WEAR SHOES IN THE SCHOOL UNLESS i HAVE A THLETES FOOT OR SOMETHING. PS SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS THING KC

[sean_stonehart]

Another misnomer I am in SD I train with shoes Boots and barefoot. KC

Gotta agree with the shoes... how often are you barefoot?

I used to train in 1960's issue artic boots from the USAF in my TKD days. They're a little better than ankle weights for speed drills with weighted legs, but the weight is distributed the length of your foot, not pulling straight down the leg as it slides up & down. Boots were a helluva an addition to conditioning. Changing shoes now depending on the brand can do the same.

[Judge Pen]

You can wear kung fu type shoes or train barefoot in our school. I personally wear shoes ever since spraining my big-toe while sparring (on my plant leg while doing a round-house--foot went one way, big toe went the other) for the support. Regardless, the technique can change slightly if you wear shoes. Usually the subtleties are mentioned when discussing applications.

[tattooedmonk]

It may not be good for your toes, but the toe tip kick (mae geri) is used in several styles of Okinawan and Japanese karate. Some consider it a "special" technique of karate. Yes, you are literally supposed to kick with the tips of the toes, especially the big toe. Conditioning for this hurts like heck. It's meant to be a "piercing" technique, delivered to soft targets, almost like a pressure point strike. I always preferred yoko geri, kicking with the outside edge of the foot. Front kicks with the ball of the foot and thrusting kicks with the heel are also in karate, so it's not like the toe tip kick is the only way, but it's the one that gets the most attention earliest on. Maybe because it's the hardest to use and takes the longest to condition for.I am aware of this.

The likelyhood of you being able to use this in practical application is slim to none. More times than not if you get into "a situation" you are going to have your shoes on .

And if it is supposed to be used in soft target/ tissue areas what is the purpose in training it so hard ??( rhetorical question) Just doing your normal training in addition to iron bone training would condition your toes/feet to be hard and strong.

I remember the first time I saw it used, in the Karate Kid . Daniel got kicked in the eye with the big toe.:D

I have heard GMT refer to this on a few occasions as well

[tattooedmonk]

You can wear kung fu type shoes or train barefoot in our school. I personally wear shoes ever since spraining my big-toe while sparring (on my plant leg while doing a round-house--foot went one way, big toe went the other) for the support. Regardless, the technique can change slightly if you wear shoes. Usually the subtleties are mentioned when discussing applications.That is cool. I do both , but for practicality purposes I prefer shoes.

[tattooedmonk]

mY MISTAKE ttm i TRAIN OUT SIDE ALOT AND DO NOT WEAR SHOES IN THE SCHOOL UNLESS i HAVE A THLETES FOOT OR SOMETHING. PS SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS THING KCNo problem!:D

[Citong Shifu]

Exactly. I've never heard of a toe kick, but have noticed that most wushu schools do it (perhaps it has some kind of aesthetic value? or it's linked to the fact that they're wearing shoes [however, they're really flimsy shoes]--and my Longfist teacher once or twice told me not to curl my toes back, at which I kind of smiled quizzicly), and I've seen some TKD and Karate dudes who have joined SD as beginners do the same thing. I think they do top-of-the-foot kicks as well when they roundhouse, but SD insists on ball of the foot.

What's with that? You can kick much harder with the ball of the foot, plus, it drives up into the target viciously. What's with the toe thing? Is it a "shinpad" and "footguard" is kinder than a proper kick kind of mentality?

Toe kicks are common with all traditional CMA! As well as, the ball of the foot & heel. The various toe kick/s (front, round, outside cross, hook, spin hook, etc) are trained early on in ones training, due to these kicks being much harder to develop then those executed with the ball & heel of the foot. Secondly, these kicks (toe kicks) are used to attack "vital area's/point" (temple's, behid ear's, face, throat, armpit, solar plex, in between ribs, liver, bladder , kidney, groin, & nerve plexus throughout the body, etc). In old times the toes were conditioned insanely due war or not having good foot protection. Nonetheless, one can condition their feet/toe in a gradual manner without injury. Not like the old time, but enough to make it count....

I think it is important for us to remember that CMA conditioning, forms, drills, techniques, fighting, etc is purely a "state of mind" and does not define the CMA overall... I feel that things have been twisted in the last three pages of posts/replies, especialy all the noise about Bruce Lee and "FORMS", lol... There's more to that story than most are wanting to talk about.. ? Example; Ziranmen (natural boxing or natural gate boxing). The art of ZRM is to be natural (self expression) in all movements, never be fixed in any one "method" (sound familiar - BL), or define technique/s (this is a simple analysis of ZRM and detailed were applies to this conversation). Now, if my history of ZRM is correct and I can't see how its not (my teacher was a direct student of Sifu Wan Laishen), ZRM is way older than Bruce Lee, his methodology, & concepts. Whats this mean, Bruce was quoting CMA the whole time, lol.... All he did different was add judo, aikido, boxing, etc to his art (Jun Fan / JKD) in order to fill in the gaps (MMA), since he didn't know much grappling, jointlocking, and footwork outside of his wing chun training... Dont get me wrong, Bruce was a great fighter, he just didn't realize what he alreday had... This seems to be what I'm getting from alot of the post/replies here...

Train and discover the arts first, then let the art evolve.

Take care.
CS

[tattooedmonk]

You are right, he had it all already, he just did not know it. I have attempted to explain this to people they just do not get it not matter how much info you put infront of them.

[bodhi warrior]

I was reading the book "Chinese martial arts training manuals" and on page 204 there is a book called "fist classic;fist method". The original author is shaolin monk Xian ji, and the editors and compilers were zhang Ming e, and zhang kong zhao. Now I know this is wishful thinking, but could zhang Ming E be our E Zhang Ming?
what do you thing?

[Citong Shifu]

You are right, he had it all already, he just did not know it. I have attempted to explain this to people they just do not get it not matter how much info you put infront of them.

Bruce used his natural talent and fighting ability to shadow the real essence of his background or lack there of. People just don't want to hear these contradicitons. BL was talented, no doubt about it, but his foundation which contributed to his speed, power, etc is the "direct" result of his "traditional" CMA training... Bruce, even in his younger years was very arrogant which resulted in his training being incomplete (old time masters would not teach everything to those who were arrogant, self-centered, or not trust worthy, if at all). BL did alot for the martial arts, no doubt and I'm not bashing him, but lets not side step the facts and reality of his philosophy, methodology, concepts, principles, etc. Look closely, anyone who is trained indepth in the CMA and Chinese culture will see exactly where he came from and what he did and didn't do!!!!!! Bruce's concepts have been around for centuries and promoted throughout the many styles of CMA.

For those who still believe that BL was the end all or evolutionist of modern martial arts, remember one thing. No matter what Bruce became or accomplished, he did so from his strict Traditional CMA background. everything else he just simply added to characterize his flare... LOL, for those of you who didn't know, Bruce really understood the value and neccessity of traditional martial art training (drills, fighting, & yes, forms). Bruce always wanted to be the best. By discrediting various aspects of martial art training and people following his word would ensure he stayed on top ;).

I'll stick with what I have. Afterall, the teaching I have received has been around for 1500 to 5000 years, not 20 or so years...

I encourage those to seek training in the area's there interested in. Have fun with what you do. Just remember, when you see the big picture, ther's always a bigger picture on the other side...

Take care
CS

[Judge Pen]

I was reading the book "Chinese martial arts training manuals" and on page 204 there is a book called "fist classic;fist method". The original author is shaolin monk Xian ji, and the editors and compilers were zhang Ming e, and zhang kong zhao. Now I know this is wishful thinking, but could zhang Ming E be our E Zhang Ming?
what do you thing?

Any publishing information that we could contact the company? Contact the other autors? Ask GMS. Any other ideas?

[ricardocameron]

Bruce's concepts have been around for centuries and promoted throughout the many styles of CMA.

For those who still believe that BL was the end all or evolutionist of modern martial arts, remember one thing. No matter what Bruce became or accomplished, he did so from his strict Traditional CMA background. everything else he just simply added to characterize his flare... [B]LOL, for those of you who didn't know, Bruce really understood the value and neccessity of traditional martial art training (drills, fighting, & yes, forms).

Spot on! "Nothin's new under the Sun..."
Anyone ever heard of The Art of War by a guy named Sun Tzu? :D

[ricardocameron]

from www.mikementzer.com

"WARM MARBLE" The Lethal Physique of Bruce Lee

By John Little
Introduction by Mike Mentzer

It is absolutely amazing how much of an impact that Bruce Lee's strength and physical development have had on athletes, bodybuilders and average men all over the face of the globe. As a young boy in high school, I can clearly recall all of the talk among my friends about the great Bruce Lee; they all were intimately familiar with Bruce's films; and they would discuss not just his epochal martial arts skills, but, also, his incredible strength and lean, shredded physique.

Bruce LeeAs Mr. Little reports in his article, even such a personage as Joe Weider remarked on the astounding muscular refinement and definition of Lee's physique, especially the master's abs. As Mr. Little also explains, Bruce Lee's physique had a remarkable influence on some of today's top physique champs. Bodybuilding luminaries, including Lou Ferrigno, Lee Haney, Dorian Yates, Rachel Mclish, Lenda Murray, Flex Wheeler and Shawn Ray have all spoken on record concerning the enormous impact the physique of Bruce Lee had on them. Why? Why would the physique of the mighty mite, never massively developed along the lines of the bodybuilding greats I just enumerated, but described by some "as the most defined physique in the world." I leave that unanswered, as author, John Little, will provide an incisive, eloquent answer...

Subsections in the article will titillate the legion of existing Lee fanatics, and whet the appetite of those for whom this article will serve as their initial introduction to the subject. For instance, Functional Strength, Unbelievable Strength, A Battle in San Fransisco, The Bodybuilding Connection and The Routine, will rivet the reader's focus such that he will finish this article in one reading, and prompt him to want to re-read it and re-re-read it.

I've been extremely impressed over the years as to how many bodybuilders are also highly trained martial artists. In fact, over the years I having personally supervised the training of many martial artists, with many of my phone clients already being rabid Lee fans, and martial artists seeking the most efficient manner of training for strength and speed; which was the goal of Lee's training. Also, I receive more e-mails, letters and phone calls from martial artists than any other type of athlete. This I believe follows from Lee's well known concern with weight training to develop efficiency and strength.

I am extremely proud to say that one of my best friends, for the past 22 years, wrote this article, which is excerpted from one of the 11 books he's written on Bruce Lee. I first met John Little at Eaton's department store in Toronto where Arnold, Franco and I had made an appearance for Weider and the IFBB, in 1979. We hit it off immediately, as John was philosophically oriented, along with having a passionate interest in bodybuilding. After that initial meeting, we met at Lou Hollozi's gym in Toronto in 1980, where I conducted a seminar; and, with that, John and I further cemented our friendship. Subsequently, John made a number of trips to Los Angeles, where he'd usually stay with me in my apartment in West Hollywood. His primary purpose in traveling to southern California was to pursue the subjects of those he wrote books about, including Steve Reeves and Lou Ferrigno.

It was finally, in 1992, that Joe Weider brought John to Los Angeles to write for Flex. This only lasted three years, as John was more interested in writing freely about his passion, namely - philosophy, martial arts, the philosophy of Bruce Lee's, who, too, was a fervent student of philosophy, his personal library packed with philosophy books that extended from the floor to the ceiling and spanned the length of the room. His quest for the truth saw him avidly studying philosophies ranging from that of Krishnamurti's to our most revered, Ayn Rand.

Bruce Lee's life was most interesting as he rose from a starving, poor boy in Hong Kong to the world's most celebrated movie star in Hollywood, having a greater impact on more people than that of Elvis Presley's, James Dean's and Marilyn Monroe's combined!

I trust that you, dear reader, will gain much knowledge from John Little's article, along with the added inspiration that will act to have you approach your own training with greater inspiration and motivation than ever before. Above all else, I ardently desire that you will read John Little's superlative article mostly for the sheer pleasure of it.

Mike Mentzer

"If you're talking about combat -- as it is -- well then, baby you'd better train every part of your body!" -- Bruce Lee (from the video, Bruce Lee: The Lost Interview)

There's an anecdote that has endured some 28 years concerning the texture of the muscles that adorned the physique of the late martial arts pioneer/philosopher, Bruce Lee.

It concerns a lady named Ann Clouse, the wife of Robert Clouse, the man who directed Lee's last film Enter the Dragon for Warner Bros. It seems that Clouse's wife had ventured onto the set of the film and was mesmerized by Lee's incredible physique as he went through his paces choreographing the fight scenes for the film, stripped to the waist under the hot and humid Hong Kong sun. In between takes, Ann approached the young superstar and asked if she could "feel his biceps." "Sure," Lee responded -- it was a request he'd received on numerous occasions -- tensing his arm and inviting her to check it out for herself. "My God!" she exclaimed, drawing her hand back instantly, "It's like feeling warm marble!"

Bruce LeeIt's fascinating that almost three decades later, people are still talking about the body of Bruce Lee -- although it is by no means surprising. The Lee physique, once described by no less an authority on such matters than bodybuilding magnate Joe Weider as "the most defined body I've ever seen!" has attracted (much like the man's martial art and philosophy) a following that not only rivals but exceeds those of Elvis Presley, James Dean and Marilyn Monroe -- combined! Certainly his following exceeds that of any bodybuilder of a similar vintage. And even more fascinating is the fact that almost everyone gets something different out of Bruce Lee -- martial artists revere his physical dexterity, power, speed and the genius he displayed in bringing science to bear on the world of martial arts; moviegoers are impressed with the man's screen presence and animal magnetism, along with the fact that he single-handedly created a new genre of action film thus opening the door to the Stallones, Schwarzeneggers and Jackie Chans who were to follow in his footsteps; philosophers are impressed with Lee's ability to bridge the philosophical chasm separating East and the West and to synthesize the best aspects of both cultures. But there exists another pocket of humanity that sees in Lee something else -- although not entirely unrelated -- the bodybuilders. Bodybuilders, young and old, know from one quick glance at Lee's physique exactly how much labor went into its creation -- and they are, one and all, very impressed.
go to the site to read more under: "articles" at bottom

[mkriii]

Hello everyone. I'm back. Aren't you all happy about that. How are all my SD friends today. Is everyone training hard? I hope so.
Has everyone drank there cool aid this morning?

[Shaolin Wookie]

If by "there cool aid" you mean "that thar Kool-Aid", then no. But I just rushed to the medicine cabinet and made sure to take my daily E. Coli elixir to protect me from the wave of acrimonious bull**** you're going to unleash, like a loquacious little sphincter.

No, but really. How are you doing today?

[Judge Pen]

Hello everyone. I'm back. Aren't you all happy about that. How are all my SD friends today. Is everyone training hard? I hope so.
Has everyone drank there cool aid this morning?

Wasn't this thread dormant for a couple of weeks before you dug it back up? Wanna hop back on the merry-go-round again?

[SIFU RON]

Bruce used his natural talent and fighting ability to shadow the real essence of his background or lack there of. People just don't want to hear these contradicitons. BL was talented, no doubt about it, but his foundation which contributed to his speed, power, etc is the "direct" result of his "traditional" CMA training... Bruce, even in his younger years was very arrogant which resulted in his training being incomplete (old time masters would not teach everything to those who were arrogant, self-centered, or not trust worthy, if at all). BL did alot for the martial arts, no doubt and I'm not bashing him, but lets not side step the facts and reality of his philosophy, methodology, concepts, principles, etc. Look closely, anyone who is trained indepth in the CMA and Chinese culture will see exactly where he came from and what he did and didn't do!!!!!! Bruce's concepts have been around for centuries and promoted throughout the many styles of CMA.

For those who still believe that BL was the end all or evolutionist of modern martial arts, remember one thing. No matter what Bruce became or accomplished, he did so from his strict Traditional CMA background. everything else he just simply added to characterize his flare... LOL, for those of you who didn't know, Bruce really understood the value and neccessity of traditional martial art training (drills, fighting, & yes, forms). Bruce always wanted to be the best. By discrediting various aspects of martial art training and people following his word would ensure he stayed on top ;).

I'll stick with what I have. Afterall, the teaching I have received has been around for 1500 to 5000 years, not 20 or so years...

I encourage those to seek training in the area's there interested in. Have fun with what you do. Just remember, when you see the big picture, ther's always a bigger picture on the other side...

Take care
CS

well put, I agree 100%

I met Bruce at Ark Wong's school when he first came here from China. You opinion is right on the money.

Many thanks, Ron Shewmaker

[SIFU RON]

Bruce used his natural talent and fighting ability to shadow the real essence of his background or lack there of. People just don't want to hear these contradicitons. BL was talented, no doubt about it, but his foundation which contributed to his speed, power, etc is the "direct" result of his "traditional" CMA training... Bruce, even in his younger years was very arrogant which resulted in his training being incomplete (old time masters would not teach everything to those who were arrogant, self-centered, or not trust worthy, if at all). BL did alot for the martial arts, no doubt and I'm not bashing him, but lets not side step the facts and reality of his philosophy, methodology, concepts, principles, etc. Look closely, anyone who is trained indepth in the CMA and Chinese culture will see exactly where he came from and what he did and didn't do!!!!!! Bruce's concepts have been around for centuries and promoted throughout the many styles of CMA.

For those who still believe that BL was the end all or evolutionist of modern martial arts, remember one thing. No matter what Bruce became or accomplished, he did so from his strict Traditional CMA background. everything else he just simply added to characterize his flare... LOL, for those of you who didn't know, Bruce really understood the value and neccessity of traditional martial art training (drills, fighting, & yes, forms). Bruce always wanted to be the best. By discrediting various aspects of martial art training and people following his word would ensure he stayed on top ;).

I'll stick with what I have. Afterall, the teaching I have received has been around for 1500 to 5000 years, not 20 or so years...

I encourage those to seek training in the area's there interested in. Have fun with what you do. Just remember, when you see the big picture, ther's always a bigger picture on the other side...

Take care
CS

well put, I agree 100%

I met Bruce at Ark Wong's school when he first came here from China. your opinion is right on the money.

Many thanks, Ron Shewmaker

[SIFU RON]

Talk about wearing shoes.

when I started training with Ark Wong back in 1959, I asked him why we trained with our shoes on he, laughed,

and said " can't take em off in a fight ".

Good thread, Thanks,

Sifu Ron

[Judge Pen]

Talk about wearing shoes.

when I started training with Ark Wong back in 1959, I asked him why we trained with our shoes on he, laughed,

and said " can't take em off in a fight ".

Good thread, Thanks,

Sifu Ron

Unless you're on a beach! :p

[ittokaos]

Are you F*ckin kidding me?!? This stupid thread(which lost interest in SD a while ago) has been going on for 520 pages?

The question was whether or not SD is Shaolin Kung fu.

The answer: nope.

Done, and I didn't need 520 page to figure it out.

I will even elaborate.
Shaolin Do is basically Kempo Karate. Kempo is said to have come from Chuan Fa which is the Chniese way of saying Fist Arts. According to what I know it is mainly based on the Five Animal system which is said to have come from Shaolin but no one can really say considering the multiple versions of Five Animals in the world(Hung Gar,Hung Kuen,Bak Mei, CLF, etc...)

Five animals itself is not even regarded as a style by many and they see it as a form and nothing more. Traces of the Five Animals can be seen in just about every style of Kung Fu and is therefore regarded as a "Ghost Style" (there but not there.)

In Conclusion, Shaolin Do= Kempo+Karate. Kempo comes from Chuan Fa, which comes from Five Animals, which comes from Shaolin. Karate comes from southern CMA which are also said to come from Shaolin as well as the Okinawan MA of "Te/Ti"(hand).

Technically, it can all be traced back to Shaolin if you try but Shaolin Kung Fu is consdered to be a kung fu style either created in a (Shaolin)temple or by a Shaolin Monk.

It can also be taught in a Shaolin temple even though it may not have been created there(but there is to much controversy about this).

Shaolin Do doesn't fit any of these descriptions. Therefore, no, it is not a Shaolin Kung Fu.

I really hopes this clears up any confusion about this.

WF

[MasterKiller]

What a completely novel and refreshing contribution! In light of this unique perspective, I suggest we lock this thread and consider the case closed.

[tattooedmonk]

Why didn't anyone come along and enlighten us like this before??:rolleyes:

[arinathos.valin]

If someone locks this thread, where else will I post? :(

[kwaichang]

IttokaosAccording to what I know it is mainly based on the Five Animal system which is said to have come from Shaolin but no one can really say considering the multiple versions of Five Animals in the world(Hung Gar,Hung Kuen,Bak Mei, CLF, etc...)

There is the flaw in your argument you dont know anything. KC

[tattooedmonk]

LMAO !! You are right he does not seem to know anything.

[ittokaos]

You are right. As I do not practice SD I have no problem not knowing too much about it but what I do know is that it is not Shaolin Kung Fu. Shaolin Kung Fu as in "chinese martial art that uses the 4 basic pronciples of Ti,Da, Shuai, Na that either originated in a Shaolin Temple or was created by a Shaolin Monk and still follows the principles of CMA and Shaolin."

It doesn't make your system bad or wrong it's just not Shaolin Kung Fu.

[DPL]

Ittokaos - expletive - the sound a dead horse makes when beaten

[ittokaos]

Ok. I'm done.(i finished a while ago) Can we get this locked?

[tattooedmonk]

You are right. As I do not practice SD I have no problem not knowing too much about it but what I do know is that it is not Shaolin Kung Fu. Shaolin Kung Fu as in "chinese martial art that uses the 4 basic pronciples of Ti,Da, Shuai, Na that either originated in a Shaolin Temple or was created by a Shaolin Monk and still follows the principles of CMA and Shaolin."

It doesn't make your system bad or wrong it's just not Shaolin Kung Fu. Well, let's see, the systems/styles that were developed in, around, or were absorbed into the teachings at Shaolin are found in SD and all 4 aspects of CMA are in SD,so how is it that if you do not know anything about SD nor have you trained in it can you say it does not have these aspects and is not Shaolin Kung Fu??

[Judge Pen]

Ok. I'm done.(i finished a while ago) Can we get this locked?

Why? If people still want to come along and jump on the dead horse merry-go-round shouldn't they have a place to do so? If we lock this thread, I promise you another will come along to replace it eventually. This is not the first SD thread. As Gene seems to merge any other SD thread here, I hope it is the last and all discussions relative to the history or veracity of SD can be contained here.

[Lamassu]

This thread is a living organism all it's own, as JP mentioned, other threads that remotely have anything to do with Shaolin Do gets lumped into this one, and it is only getting bigger and bigger and bigger!!! :D This thread will be, if not already is, the largest thread in the entire kung fu forum (BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!), and there's nothing you can do about it, because even if all the trolls out there decided they will keep their asinine opinions to themselves and swear by pain of castration never to post on this thread in fear of it only growing larger, there are still those of us who are students of Shaolin Do who have questions or topics to talk about with our fellow students and WE aren't going anywhere.

Be grateful Shaolin Do is contained in one thread, we could easily have this topic spread throughout the rest of the forum like a virus and then where will you be? :cool:

[MasterKiller]

we could easily have this topic spread throughout the rest of the forum like a virus and then where will you be? :cool: Back in 2001...

[tattooedmonk]

I love this group!!!

[Judge Pen]

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

If anyone really wants to kill this thread, then Kung Fu Fan, with only a single post to his account, could delete this entire thread. Its obvious that KFF is an alias of someone else that wanted to stir things up and watch it grow. So unless KFF fan does something about it, then let's just keep all SD discussion here.

[BM2]

I always thought KFF was really MasterKiller, however the thread was never deleted...;)

[MasterKiller]

I always thought KFF was really MasterKiller, however the thread was never deleted...;)

MK has no aliases. :mad:

[Judge Pen]

MK has no aliases. :mad:

Aside from MasterKiller? Come on, that can't be your real name!

[MasterKiller]

Aside from MasterKiller? Come on, that can't be your real name!

MasterKiller is MK's name. How could it be otherwise?

[Judge Pen]

MasterKiller is MK's name. How could it be otherwise?

If its not an alias then its a split personality!

[BentMonk]

If its not an alias then its a split personality!

If a person with multiple personalities threatens suicide, does this constitute a hostage crisis? :D

[The Xia]

If anyone really wants to kill this thread, then Kung Fu Fan, with only a single post to his account, could delete this entire thread. Its obvious that KFF is an alias of someone else that wanted to stir things up and watch it grow. So unless KFF fan does something about it, then let's just keep all SD discussion here.
I think it would be funnier if Kung Fu Fan wasn't an alias for someone else. That, or it is really an alias for Gene. :D

[tattooedmonk]

I think it would be funnier if Kung Fu Fan wasn't an alias for someone else. That, or it is really an alias for Gene. :DI always thought the samething.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Man, I busted my spear yesterday doing Yang Family Spear, when you slap the ground with the butt twice near the middle of the form.:mad:

There was this flock of asian chicks passing by my apartment, and they stopped to give me an audience, and my girlfriend was nowhere around--so it was okay if I showed off a little, I guess.

But I busted my spear, and now I'm spearless.:(

Sucks. But I got a standing ovation. Sure, they were already standing, but it was a standing ovation, nonetheless.

[BentMonk]

Man, I busted my spear yesterday doing Yang Family Spear, when you slap the ground with the butt twice near the middle of the form.:mad:

There was this flock of asian chicks passing by my apartment, and they stopped to give me an audience, and my girlfriend was nowhere around--so it was okay if I showed off a little, I guess.

But I busted my spear, and now I'm spearless.:(

Sucks. But I got a standing ovation. Sure, they were already standing, but it was a standing ovation, nonetheless.

So what you're saying is that you were playing with your spear in front Asian chicks while your girlfriend wasn't home, got too excited and broke your spear? :D TMI man! :D

[Judge Pen]

Man, I busted my spear yesterday doing Yang Family Spear, when you slap the ground with the butt twice near the middle of the form.:mad:

There was this flock of asian chicks passing by my apartment, and they stopped to give me an audience, and my girlfriend was nowhere around--so it was okay if I showed off a little, I guess.

But I busted my spear, and now I'm spearless.:(

Sucks. But I got a standing ovation. Sure, they were already standing, but it was a standing ovation, nonetheless.

Did you have an old spear? This is why is soak the shaft in oil to treat it and prevent damage as the spear ages.

[Shaolin Wookie]

No, it was a relatively young rattan spear. I think it was more the fact I should have choked up a bit if I was going to go slapping it on asphalt like a *******.

(If I was single, I could have gotten da numbas...LOL....well, I could have gotten 'em anyways, but the last thing this man needs is two wimmins jawing his ear off.)

[BlueTravesty]

So what you're saying is that you were playing with your spear in front Asian chicks while your girlfriend wasn't home, got too excited and broke your spear? :D TMI man! :D

*rimshot!*

[BM2]

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

MasterKiller's grammar and spelling is better than this post.

[humbleman]

...everything you ever wanted to know about butt-whupping but were afraid to ask because you were afraid you'd get your butt whupped!!!:D

[Judge Pen]

MasterKiller's grammar and spelling is better than this post.

I know. I didn't think that MK was KFF.

[tattooedmonk]

No, it was a relatively young rattan spear. I think it was more the fact I should have choked up a bit if I was going to go slapping it on asphalt like a *******.

(If I was single, I could have gotten da numbas...LOL....well, I could have gotten 'em anyways, but the last thing this man needs is two wimmins jawing his ear off.)Rattan?? I have heard of rattan spears but have not seen them . Where did you get it?? I am surprised that you are not using waxwood. Like JP said, with waxwood, you have to treat it because of wood worms and some climates. Rattan if left out in the weather has a tendency to dry out and become brittle. You should take better care of your weapons.:D

[BM2]

I really doubt that the real spears used a wax wood shaft anyway which are flimsy and easily snapped. Would you really bet your life on it holding up in battle?
I had an antique spear head with part of the shaft still in it. It was a dark red, close grain wood. In other words, it was a hardwood. Wax wood is more like the modern wu-shu weapons, more flash.

[Judge Pen]

I really doubt that the real spears used a wax wood shaft anyway which are flimsy and easily snapped. Would you really bet your life on it holding up in battle?
I had an antique spear head with part of the shaft still in it. It was a dark red, close grain wood. In other words, it was a hardwood. Wax wood is more like the modern wu-shu weapons, more flash.

You're correct and many of the spear techniques that you see used would be difficult to impossible to do with a heavier shaft.

I will say that I had a waxwood shaft that was very heavy and durable. I doubt that it would have snapped easily.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think the main point is that ancient Chinese spear-wielders weren't slapping their spears on asphalt.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Rattan?? I have heard of rattan spears but have not seen them . Where did you get it?? I am surprised that you are not using waxwood. Like JP said, with waxwood, you have to treat it because of wood worms and some climates. Rattan if left out in the weather has a tendency to dry out and become brittle. You should take better care of your weapons.:D

I'm pretty sure that it was rattan. A teacher said we used them because of their flexibility...i.e. they can bend around the opponent's weapon if he blocks, plus, they generate more...I don't know what it is, but it's whipping power....you just shouldn't pound them on concrete to show off to asian chicks....LOL......

[BM2]

I'm pretty sure that it was rattan. A teacher said we used them because of their flexibility...i.e. they can bend around the opponent's weapon if he blocks, plus, they generate more...I don't know what it is, but it's whipping power....you just shouldn't pound them on concrete to show off to asian chicks....LOL......

I put one of my antique spear heads onto a waxwood shaft. The weight of the real spear head bent the waxwood and made it so sloppy when I TRIED to use it.
This is a story I have told before.
My brother was performing a spear demo at the county fair. It was held inside one of the barns at the fairgrounds in June or July and it was very hot and humid.
I had to work that day and didn't get to see what happened. He had been practicing with my waxwood spear that had the largest diameter shaft that I have ever seen, not a lot of tapering and a large flair at the stub. It had sat at a MA store because no one wanted it but I liked it. For some reason, this day he was using a normal spear. You may already know what happened in that crowded arena.:D
During the performance where you flip the spear, have the spear end facing towards your neck/face height and send it towards you as you turn away and send it towards an opponet behind you, it went through his sweaty hands into the crowd:eek:
Two guys were leaning on each side of a wooden support post/column. It hit about head high between them with each of them turning to stare at it.
After about 3 seconds, the crowd roared its approval of hitting the post between those guys that had been to his back as he had turned :o

[Shaolin Wookie]

I put one of my antique spear heads onto a waxwood shaft. The weight of the real spear head bent the waxwood and made it so sloppy when I TRIED to use it.
This is a story I have told before.
My brother was performing a spear demo at the county fair. It was held inside one of the barns at the fairgrounds in June or July and it was very hot and humid.
I had to work that day and didn't get to see what happened. He had been practicing with my waxwood spear that had the largest diameter shaft that I have ever seen, not a lot of tapering and a large flair at the stub. It had sat at a MA store because no one wanted it but I liked it. For some reason, this day he was using a normal spear. You may already know what happened in that crowded arena.:D
During the performance where you flip the spear, have the spear end facing towards your neck/face height and send it towards you as you turn away and send it towards an opponet behind you, it went through his sweaty hands into the crowd:eek:
Two guys were leaning on each side of a wooden support post/column. It hit about head high between them with each of them turning to stare at it.
After about 3 seconds, the crowd roared its approval of hitting the post between those guys that had been to his back as he had turned :o

Did he play it off? I mean, did he turn and point at them, mean-muggin', and shout: "I heard what you said about my mother! Say it again, and I won't miss!"

[Judge Pen]

I put one of my antique spear heads onto a waxwood shaft. The weight of the real spear head bent the waxwood and made it so sloppy when I TRIED to use it.
This is a story I have told before.
My brother was performing a spear demo at the county fair. It was held inside one of the barns at the fairgrounds in June or July and it was very hot and humid.
I had to work that day and didn't get to see what happened. He had been practicing with my waxwood spear that had the largest diameter shaft that I have ever seen, not a lot of tapering and a large flair at the stub. It had sat at a MA store because no one wanted it but I liked it. For some reason, this day he was using a normal spear. You may already know what happened in that crowded arena.:D
During the performance where you flip the spear, have the spear end facing towards your neck/face height and send it towards you as you turn away and send it towards an opponet behind you, it went through his sweaty hands into the crowd:eek:
Two guys were leaning on each side of a wooden support post/column. It hit about head high between them with each of them turning to stare at it.
After about 3 seconds, the crowd roared its approval of hitting the post between those guys that had been to his back as he had turned :o

One of these days I'll get to Louisville and meet up with you. I'll bring the spear that I made--It is waxwood, but its fairly thick and its been properly treated. I have a functional spear head on it as well. It's a bit diffcult to wield at times, but it makes for a nice looking spear. The move you described (with the spear point facing toward you) makes me a bit more nervous when you are looking at a point that is sharp enoug to cut.

[BM2]

Did he play it off? I mean, did he turn and point at them, mean-muggin', and shout: "I heard what you said about my mother! Say it again, and I won't miss!"


No, that is what he should have done. Instead he walked over to the post and removed it. He then started all over again.:confused:
LOL, if I had been in the crowd I wouldn't have stuck around for the "Encore":D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Such pathetic humor....I love bad puns.....:D

[tattooedmonk]

I really doubt that the real spears used a wax wood shaft anyway which are flimsy and easily snapped. Would you really bet your life on it holding up in battle?
I had an antique spear head with part of the shaft still in it. It was a dark red, close grain wood. In other words, it was a hardwood. Wax wood is more like the modern wu-shu weapons, more flash.I doubt this completely. They are only flimsy if you get a thin one. You need to find one that is functional for combat. Not too thin not too thick. It should be a little bit heavier to help build strength. These are small trees, they are as strong as nature has made them . If you treat them with oils they will not become brittle or get wood worms.

[humbleman]

Chuck Norris says "the surge is working" and "morale is way up." Next we'll have an iraqi version of "The Green Berets" with John Wayne but starring Chuck. Then 10 years down the road we'll have him in "Who'll Stop the Sand" er... "Rain."

[humbleman]

Because Bruce Lee in the last scene of "Enter The Dragon" obviously travelled forward in time and kicked Chucks' plastic rear for making such stupid remarks:eek:

[humbleman]

...does not echo. Chuck Norris is solely responsible for this phenomenon. When asked why he just stares at you grimly.:D

[humbleman]

...does not use spell check. When he misspells a word, Oxford simply changes the spelling.:D

[humbleman]

...travelled back in time to stop the J.F.K. assasination. He caught Oswalds bullets in his beard. J.F.K.s head exploded from sheer amazement.:D

[humbleman]

sorry, couldn't resist those chuckisms. news flash- kararate teacher in VA. arrested for felony child endangerment for kicking a student 200 times, apparently in some sort of "record breaking" thing within the class. Wonder what kind of an impact this will have

[kwaichang]

If the kid took more than one the teacher cant be much. who cares. KC

[Lamassu]

If the kid took more than one the teacher cant be much. who cares. KC

I Couldn't agree with you more.

[humbleman]

the kid had a broken rib and organ damage. my s.d. instructor refused to teach anyone under 18. now i see why. smart man.

[humbleman]

the 11 year old had broken rib and internal injuries. the places most affected will no doubt be the "kid karate" belt mills that specialize in bilking parents.

[BM2]

I doubt this completely. They are only flimsy if you get a thin one. You need to find one that is functional for combat. Not too thin not too thick. It should be a little bit heavier to help build strength. These are small trees, they are as strong as nature has made them . If you treat them with oils they will not become brittle or get wood worms.


Although not on topic, what was the purpose of the grooves seen that run along the top of a broadsword? I have heard them called blood grooves. Sometimes a double edge sword will have it down the center.

[MasterKiller]

Although not on topic, what was the purpose of the grooves seen that run along the top of a broadsword? I have heard them called blood grooves. Sometimes a double edge sword will have it down the center.

MOst of the info I've read that was credible suggests they make the grooves to remove material from the blade to make it lighter w/o compromising integrity.

[SDJerry]

Although not on topic, what was the purpose of the grooves seen that run along the top of a broadsword? I have heard them called blood grooves. Sometimes a double edge sword will have it down the center.

To cut down on suction so it's easier to pull the blade out maybe??? Just throwing that out there :D

[Lamassu]

To cut down on suction so it's easier to pull the blade out maybe??? Just throwing that out there :D

I've also heard the blood pockets are made to slip in air bubbles into your enemies blood stream to insure you kill them. Of course, a gashing stab wound will let plenty of air into the body anyway, so I'm not real sure about that one.

[Mas Judt]

If the kid took more than one the teacher cant be much. who cares. KC

Best thing ever said by an SD guy.

[BM2]

MOst of the info I've read that was credible suggests they make the grooves to remove material from the blade to make it lighter w/o compromising integrity.

Yeah, that's it.
At the Cracker Barrel restaurant near me, they have an old scythe on the wall with two grooves cut into it. I'm sure its for the same reason.
Really I just put the question out there for an example of what we hear isn't always correct. ;) If we totally disagree with somebody's opinion because it differs from what we have been told, you just might miss something.

[Shaolin Wookie]

in some sort of "record breaking" thing within the class. Wonder what kind of an impact this will have

The impact?

His "record breaking" thing just turned into a "record making" thing.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah, that's it.
At the Cracker Barrel restaurant near me, they have an old scythe on the wall with two grooves cut into it. I'm sure its for the same reason.
Really I just put the question out there for an example of what we hear isn't always correct. ;) If we totally disagree with somebody's opinion because it differs from what we have been told, you just might miss something.

But it's universal---in Europe and the East. Typically, in the late English tradition, the blood channel (called a "fuller") was forged into the blade for the purpose of keeping blood from washing all over the blade and possibly over the hilt. It's like a river bank, so when you pull out the blade after impaling someone, the blood has a channel it's supposed to flow through, rather than washing over the side, or pouring over the hilt and comprimising your grip.

That's not a consensus opinion, though. Most steel-smiths say it's there to lighten the weapon and give it a stiffer constitution so it doesn't shatter as easily.

[BM2]

But it's universal---in Europe and the East. Typically, in the late English tradition, the blood channel (called a "fuller") was forged into the blade for the purpose of keeping blood from washing all over the blade and possibly over the hilt. It's like a river bank, so when you pull out the blade after impaling someone, the blood has a channel it's supposed to flow through, rather than washing over the side, or pouring over the hilt and comprimising your grip.

That's not a consensus opinion, though. Most steel-smiths say it's there to lighten the weapon and give it a stiffer constitution so it doesn't shatter as easily.


In my antique weapons, they were cut, not forged. I think you may have meant cast. The difference between cast and forge is just as it sounds, there is a mold with the impression of the shape you want when you cast something. The material is poured into the mold. To forge is to strike.


I was just thinking that the internet is a lot like newspapers. At one time in England, stories of dragons in the countryside were common. When newspapers started making their presence in smaller towns, less stories about dragons occured until there were none.

We all heard of Kwan Dos that weighed X lbs even when experts of different cultures agree that the heaviest weapons weilded by hand would have weighed not much more than 12lbs due to the fatigue of battle. Or that there were speciality built Tai Chi swords. And I really, really dislike giving him a plug on here, Scott Rodell has put to rest many claims of Chinese weapons. He sells antiques and has seen many to have formed a better opinion than anyone on here. The guy whom I have bought my antiques from lives in Illinois and is named Fred. Forgot his last name but a search for him could find him using Fre****s swords or something like that. I do not recommend scott. But you can find him on the web. Just like they said at the first Woodstock concert " Don't take the brown acid, but it's your trip." :D

[MasterKiller]

Right. And a Dao isn't exactly a "stick in you" weapon, it's a "chop off your arm" weapon. I doubt suction is much of a problem when you hack someone up.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm by no means an expert in the field, just what I've read and such. But in thinking of the usage of a Western sword, it was thicker and slower, because part of its usage involved battery, such as Western armor was thick and didn't provide much opportunity for "hacking off limbs". Generally, you battered someone, and stabbed him in the *****s of his armor.

MK, what do you know of medieval Chinese armor? I've always been curious to see what it involved. It obviously wasn't the thick-heavy-weighted stuff favored by the larger, thicker Europeans. Was it leather?

[MasterKiller]

MK, what do you know of medieval Chinese armor? I've always been curious to see what it involved. It obviously wasn't the thick-heavy-weighted stuff favored by the larger, thicker Europeans. Was it leather? Leather and weaved cloth layers (aka kevlar) were both used, but I don't know much more than that.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The reason I asked is I imagine the usage of the fuller was the same, even though swords were used quite differently. Besides its use for balance, and perhaps the blood channel, the obvious significance would be to make the weapon lighter/sturdier. The Blood channel idea would make sense in stabbing, not so much as slashing and hacking. So it kind of rules out that as a major factor, although it does still make sense in a small degree.

Eastern and Western swords were used differently (I guess, although their use was to do the same thing, hack, slash, stab), so I assume the common factor would be the lightness/sturdiness of the blade.

[Judge Pen]

Leather and weaved cloth layers (aka kevlar) were both used, but I don't know much more than that.

I read somewhere that woven silk "armour" was strong enough to stop the pentration of an arrow. Don't know if its true or not.

[MasterKiller]

I read somewhere that woven silk "armour" was strong enough to stop the pentration of an arrow. Don't know if its true or not.

IIRC, Mongols wore silk because an arrow wouldn't puncture it, so if you got hit with an arrow, you could pull the silk to remove the arrow w/o causing too much damage.

[kwaichang]

Silk would wind around the arrow as it penetrated and was easier to remove as it did not penetrate as far. I was told by an Iaido practioner that the groove was for weighting purposes. Also blood on the "handle of the sword was OK as it became sticky and helped the grip over time. KC

[kwaichang]

Fuller - Often called the blood groove or gutter, the fuller is a narrow groove that runs most of the length of many swords. Most people believe that it is there to allow the blade to be easily removed by blood escaping through the channel, thereby reducing suction. Contrary to popular belief, the fuller is not a channel for blood to run along. The actual reason for the fuller is to decrease the weight of the blade without diminishing the strength. Use of a fuller allows a bladesmith to use less material to comprise the blade, making it lighter without sacrificing too much structural integrity. This is similar to the use of an I-beam when building a skyscraper.
This is what I found its about material amount used. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Silk would wind around the arrow as it penetrated and was easier to remove as it did not penetrate as far. I was told by an Iaido practioner that the groove was for weighting purposes. Also blood on the "handle of the sword was OK as it became sticky and helped the grip over time. KC

Interesting. I guess it's the equivalent of modern day bullet/clothing issues once you've been shot. Once you've removed the bullet, you have to make sure you get all the clothing fragments out to prevent infection.

[Ng Jit]

This is my experience with these TKD wanna be kung fu schools. They are a black belt factory. I am sorry normally I am rather polite. These guys are nothing more than a big money deal that have no kung fu at all...

In 2001 I opened my school on Magazine Street in New Orleans LA. It was in a modern dance academy. I was pretty much the only show in town back then, besides Sifu Ron who taught Tibetan White Crane in New Orleans east.

My school survived the onslaught, but this guy moved into a Ballet dance school about 5 blocks up from me. He had SO much money and Material behind him from the Shaolin Do school in Texas (where he learned) that he went on this huge advertisement crusade to put my school out of business.

Within a couple of months he had a new building. Now, he has never really had that many students. And I have certainly never known anyone to go to his Branch school of the Shaolin Do business organization.

I do know that it is not authentic Shaolin Kung Fu. They ware Korean TKD gee's for their classes (Not the very old fashioned Chinese uniforms that are simular)... I read one of their brochures and it basically claimed they were from the Wu Dang temple lienage through that old guy that we see sometimes in pictures of who looks like cousin it...

I did however notice that they don't even attempt to use Sil Lum stances... So this is my rant on this Business Organization...

Ng Jit
http://groups.myspace.com/ngjit

[kwaichang]

Ng Jit I am sorry if your school is not doing well. I know the SD guy who teaches there and he is an alright guy why dont you go and introduce yourself. BTW he does not have a power house money train to back him Go say Hi. KC

[bodhi warrior]

I find it hard to believe people cling to the whole gi thing to discredit sd. I remember a certain Hung I Hsiang, who taught internal Kung fu in Taiwan used gi's and a belt system to teach his art. He said he did so to make his art more popular like karate. Does this mean his art isn't tcma? What about JowGa? They use gi's as well. Any comments from the peanut gallery?

[brucereiter]

This is my experience with these TKD wanna be kung fu schools. They are a black belt factory. I am sorry normally I am rather polite. These guys are nothing more than a big money deal that have no kung fu at all...
i do not think anyone is getting rich from shaolin do, some people have made a good living though. what do you mean by big money?
what do you mean by "no kung fu at all" do you mean shaolin do students have not put in time and effort into their training? do you mean they can not fight? i have been told by many people outside of our system that i have "good" kung fu ... blanket statements like that you made



I have certainly never known anyone to go to his Branch school of the Shaolin Do business organization. interesting?



I do know that it is not authentic Shaolin Kung Fu.
what in your opinion is "authentic shaolin kung fu"?
is there a organization that can authenticate what is or is not?



They ware Korean TKD gee's for their classes (Not the very old fashioned Chinese uniforms that are simular)...

i thought they were karate gi's ... lol.
who cares what people where? will choice of clothing make a better martial artist?



I read one of their brochures and it basically claimed they were from the Wu Dang temple lienage through that old guy that we see sometimes in pictures of who looks like cousin it... i think you misread the brochure.



I did however notice that they don't even attempt to use Sil Lum stances...

what is a "sil lum" stance? can you show us some?

[Seppukku]

I think the obvious question is when did the Japanese steal the gi from the Chinese, right?

[mkriii]

No Shaolin Do is not real. It's a mixture of several arts. You can tell this by the uniform they wear and the techniques & weapons they teach. Also by the use of terms. If they say they teach pure Chinese Kung Fu they are lying. They are trying to capatolize on the name Shaolin. For God's sake, they wear a japanese Gi, teach sia and nunchucks and other weapons of non chinese origin, and use Japanes terminology such as dojo and kumite. Does this sound like kung fu to you? Not to me. I have not seen any kung fu school that teach or do any of the things that SD schools do. Also what is even crazier is all the gimmicks that they do to try to rope you out of more money. Once you get to a particular rank you have to buy a patch to wear on your Gi. You also have to take special classes (which cost additional money) to learn a specific thing for your test. For example, you might need a specific form but it is only taught at a seminar that Sin The' is teaching. Of course you have to pay for this seminar if you want to get this form that is REQUIRED for the belt (not sash) you are going for. It's all about money money money. There are other examples I could go on about. Anyways, Merry Christmas to all you SD guy/gals.

[bodhi warrior]

The gi is more durable.
the sai (called a cha) is a chinese weapon.
What other non-chinese weapon is taught?
I've never been required to buy a patch.
The only time I had to pay for a sin the' seminar is if my instructor didn't know the form. Which was never. I only took a seminar if I wanted to.

[mkriii]

well last time I checked Nunchucks were Japanese and so were the sai. This is the definition of the sai according to Wikapedia......

Sai (釵) is the Ryukyu name for a traditional Okinawan[1] weapon also used in India, Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. Its basic form is that of a pointed, rod-shaped baton, with two long, unsharpened projections (tsuba) attached to the handle. The very end of the handle is called the knuckle. Sai are constructed in a variety of forms. Traditional sai are round, while some reproductions have adapted an octagonal middle prong. The tsuba are traditionally symmetrical, however, the Manji design developed by Taira Shinken employs oppositely facing tsuba.

It is believed the sai was always a weapon. Although some hypothesize it originated as an agricultural tool used to measure stalks, plow fields, plant rice, or to hold cart wheels in place, the evidence for this is limited. The sai is known to have been used in other parts of Asia before its arrival on Okinawa. Early evidence points to an Indonesian origin. In Malay the sai is known as a chabang (also spelled cabang/tjabang, meaning branch) and is thought to derive from the Indian trident. By trade, the chabang spread through the Indonesia and may have reached Okinawa from one or more of these places simultaneously. It is also of note that the Greek letter psi, is a ****nym of sai and that the shape of the letter itself closely resembles the shape of the weapon

Thats for starters.

Mark R.

[mkriii]

here is the definition of nunchuck. Note the origin.......

History Although the certain origin of nunchaku is disputed, it is thought to come from China through the Japanese island of Okinawa; and according to the History Channel they were created in their current incarnation for the movies. The Japanese word nunchaku itself comes from the Hokkien (Min Nan) word ng-chiat-kun (兩節棍). When viewed etymologically from its Okinawan roots, nun comes from the word for twin, and chaku from shaku, a unit of measurement. The popular belief is that the nunchaku was originally a short flail used to thresh rice or soybeans (that is, separate the grain from the husk).

Sincerely,
Mark R.

P.S.
Would you like me to continue with breaking it down to you? (telling you the untruths)

[Baqualin]

well last time I checked Nunchucks were Japanese and so were the sai. This is the definition of the sai according to Wikapedia......

Sai (釵) is the Ryukyu name for a traditional Okinawan[1] weapon also used in India, Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. Its basic form is that of a pointed, rod-shaped baton, with two long, unsharpened projections (tsuba) attached to the handle. The very end of the handle is called the knuckle. Sai are constructed in a variety of forms. Traditional sai are round, while some reproductions have adapted an octagonal middle prong. The tsuba are traditionally symmetrical, however, the Manji design developed by Taira Shinken employs oppositely facing tsuba.

It is believed the sai was always a weapon. Although some hypothesize it originated as an agricultural tool used to measure stalks, plow fields, plant rice, or to hold cart wheels in place, the evidence for this is limited. The sai is known to have been used in other parts of Asia before its arrival on Okinawa. Early evidence points to an Indonesian origin. In Malay the sai is known as a chabang (also spelled cabang/tjabang, meaning branch) and is thought to derive from the Indian trident. By trade, the chabang spread through the Indonesia and may have reached Okinawa from one or more of these places simultaneously. It is also of note that the Greek letter psi, is a ****nym of sai and that the shape of the letter itself closely resembles the shape of the weapon

Thats for starters.

Mark R.

One question Mr. Mark...why do you insist on acting like you know all about SD when it's apparent you know nothing about us.:confused:

[Baqualin]

well last time I checked Nunchucks were Japanese and so were the sai. This is the definition of the sai according to Wikapedia......

Sai (釵) is the Ryukyu name for a traditional Okinawan[1] weapon also used in India, Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. Its basic form is that of a pointed, rod-shaped baton, with two long, unsharpened projections (tsuba) attached to the handle. The very end of the handle is called the knuckle. Sai are constructed in a variety of forms. Traditional sai are round, while some reproductions have adapted an octagonal middle prong. The tsuba are traditionally symmetrical, however, the Manji design developed by Taira Shinken employs oppositely facing tsuba.

It is believed the sai was always a weapon. Although some hypothesize it originated as an agricultural tool used to measure stalks, plow fields, plant rice, or to hold cart wheels in place, the evidence for this is limited. The sai is known to have been used in other parts of Asia before its arrival on Okinawa. Early evidence points to an Indonesian origin. In Malay the sai is known as a chabang (also spelled cabang/tjabang, meaning branch) and is thought to derive from the Indian trident. By trade, the chabang spread through the Indonesia and may have reached Okinawa from one or more of these places simultaneously. It is also of note that the Greek letter psi, is a ****nym of sai and that the shape of the letter itself closely resembles the shape of the weapon

Thats for starters.

Mark R.

Sounds like a long road to Japan

[Baqualin]

here is the definition of nunchuck. Note the origin.......

History Although the certain origin of nunchaku is disputed, it is thought to come from China

DUH!!!!



P.S.
Would you like me to continue with breaking it down to you? (telling you the untruths)

Sure

jjkfhsdfhsdjklhsdjklghda

[mkriii]

I know some years ago you had to buy patches to put on you gi. The patch of the belt tied in a knot and the patch of the hand open and then you had to buy more patches at advance belts. I know that when you get to like Brown belt (i think) you have to take a speacial class either in Tai Chi or Ba Qua and it costs additional money each month to take this class. If you don't learn this then you can't advance in belt rank. Also there was a seminar that Sin Thev taught last year covering a specific form. I can't remember what it was but you had to have it for a particular belt and the only way you could learn it was by taking this seminar (which of course you had to pay for). What rank are you bodhi warrior?

[Baqualin]

No Shaolin Do is not real.
If it's not real, why does it exist.

It's a mixture of several arts. You can tell this by the uniform they wear and the techniques & weapons they teach. Also by the use of terms. If they say they teach pure Chinese Kung Fu they are lying. They are trying to capatolize on the name Shaolin. For God's sake, they wear a japanese Gi, teach sia and nunchucks and other weapons of non chinese origin, and use Japanes terminology such as dojo and kumite. Does this sound like kung fu to you? Not to me. I have not seen any kung fu school that teach or do any of the things that SD schools do. Also what is even crazier is all the gimmicks that they do to try to rope you out of more money. Once you get to a particular rank you have to buy a patch to wear on your Gi. You also have to take special classes (which cost additional money) to learn a specific thing for your test. For example, you might need a specific form but it is only taught at a seminar that Sin The' is teaching. Of course you have to pay for this seminar if you want to get this form that is REQUIRED for the belt (not sash) you are going for. It's all about money money money. There are other examples I could go on about. Anyways, Merry Christmas to all you SD guy/gals.

I see your preparing the stuffing for your Xmas turkey:D

[Baqualin]

I know some years ago you had to buy patches to put on you gi. The patch of the belt tied in a knot and the patch of the hand open and then you had to buy more patches at advance belts. I know that when you get to like Brown belt (i think) you have to take a speacial class either in Tai Chi or Ba Qua and it costs additional money each month to take this class. If you don't learn this then you can't advance in belt rank. Also there was a seminar that Sin Thev taught last year covering a specific form. I can't remember what it was but you had to have it for a particular belt and the only way you could learn it was by taking this seminar (which of course you had to pay for). What rank are you bodhi warrior?

WOW a couple of patches for a couple of bucks.....a lot of money made here.
The rest of your statement shows once again you know nothing...none of it is true period
BQ

[mkriii]

Yes, I am preparing my stufing for the turkey. Now I just have to go out and find a big fat out of shape turkey to fill with my stuffing. There might be a turkey or two on Gold Rush Rd.. Do you know of any?

[Baqualin]

Yes, I am preparing my stufing for the turkey. Now I just have to go out and find a big fat out of shape turkey to fill with my stuffing. There might be a turkey or two on Gold Rush Rd.. Do you know of any?

Well I'm not fat and definitively not out of shape...just old...so I, probally would give you a nice belly ache.....but I'm sure you could find what your looking for, just come on over and shop around, just be sure and tell everybody who you are.
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

I think the obvious question is when did the Japanese steal the gi from the Chinese, right?Yes, As anyone can see the GI is just like the cloths the shaolin monks wear without it being orange or blue and having the leg ties ,otherwise it is EXACTLY like the monk garments. I saw a picture of Shi Yang Ming in his orange "GI" once without the legs ties and it looks exactly like it. And considering that the monks supposedly shared the arts with the japanese and okinawans it would stand to reason that they would adopt a uniform that was similar to that of the monks. Does this make sense or not??

[MasterKiller]

Yes, As anyone can see the GI is just like the cloths the shaolin monks wear without it being orange or blue and having the leg ties ,otherwise it is EXACTLY like the monk garments. I saw a picture of Shi Yang Ming in his orange "GI" once without the legs ties and it looks exactly like it. And considering that the monks supposedly shared the arts with the japanese and okinawans it would stand to reason that they would adopt a uniform that was similar to that of the monks. Does this make sense or not??

um. No? The karate gi was developed from the Judo uniform. The Judo uniform was most likely derived by Jigoro Kano from the kimono and other Japanese undergarments.

[tattooedmonk]

um. No? The karate gi was developed from the Judo uniform. The Judo uniform was most likely derived by Jigoro Kano from the kimono and other Japanese undergarments.It is only one of the many possible ways . And where did this Judo uniform come from?? The Kimono?? Where did they get these ideas?? The Monks?? The Chinese??And what is judo?? Shuai Jiao??

[Judge Pen]

I know some years ago you had to buy patches to put on you gi. The patch of the belt tied in a knot and the patch of the hand open and then you had to buy more patches at advance belts. I know that when you get to like Brown belt (i think) you have to take a speacial class either in Tai Chi or Ba Qua and it costs additional money each month to take this class. If you don't learn this then you can't advance in belt rank. Also there was a seminar that Sin Thev taught last year covering a specific form. I can't remember what it was but you had to have it for a particular belt and the only way you could learn it was by taking this seminar (which of course you had to pay for). What rank are you bodhi warrior?

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm a 4th and I've never been required to pay for a special class to advance in rank.

Sai is a Japanese word, but the weapon's origin is Chinese. Nunchucku is a japanese term as well, but there is some indication that it had chinese origins as well. (Anybody hear an echo in here?)

[Judge Pen]

Yes, As anyone can see the GI is just like the cloths the shaolin monks wear without it being orange or blue and having the leg ties ,otherwise it is EXACTLY like the monk garments. I saw a picture of Shi Yang Ming in his orange "GI" once without the legs ties and it looks exactly like it. And considering that the monks supposedly shared the arts with the japanese and okinawans it would stand to reason that they would adopt a uniform that was similar to that of the monks. Does this make sense or not??

I've heard this argument, but I don't buy it personally. There's paintings etc of a "V" neck garment that some monks wore, sure, but that doesn't mean it was the precursor to the "gi". Plus, if the "gi" was originally Chinese in origin, why would wearing it in Indonesia make Ie's school look Japanese instead of Chinese? Seems like a mixed message there.

I think there are more credible arguments for wearing a gi other than the "Chinese connection."

[tattooedmonk]

I've heard this argument, but I don't buy it personally. There's paintings etc of a "V" neck garment that some monks wore, sure, but that doesn't mean it was the precursor to the "gi". Plus, if the "gi" was originally Chinese in origin, why would wearing it in Indonesia make Ie's school look Japanese instead of Chinese? Seems like a mixed message there.

I think there are more credible arguments for wearing a gi other than the "Chinese connection."
Fair enough . I would say that it , GI, became popular in Japan and okinawa and that Master Ie saw this and took it from there. I think the knowledge of it's connection to the Chinese Shaolin Monks garments is only a resent acknowledgement , but this does not take away from the fact that it is most likely Chinese in origin, considering a large part of the Japanese culture came from the Chinese back then.

[lostdragon]

almost 8000 posts. Incredible.

[tattooedmonk]

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm a 4th and I've never been required to pay for a special class to advance in rank.

Sai is a Japanese word, but the weapon's origin is Chinese. Nunchucku is a japanese term as well, but there is some indication that it had chinese origins as well. (Anybody hear an echo in here?)This brings up a good point actually because on the west coast they did this for many years, they had all the conditioning classes at an additional fee and they were required for rank advancement. The classes cost any where from 25$ to 65$ Like the Yi Jin Jing . outdoor conditioning, etc. and this was in addition to the monthly dues .

Not failing to mention that Advanced black belts had to pay an additional charge monthly for their advanced material.

[Baqualin]

This brings up a good point actually because on the west coast they did this for many years, they had all the conditioning classes at an additional fee and they were required for rank advancement. The classes cost any where from 25$ to 65$ Like the Yi Jin Jing . outdoor conditioning, etc. and this was in addition to the monthly dues .

One of the many reasons there's an east & west;)

[Leto]

"Sai"

http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x145/Taiji_changes/?action=view&current=VHG32D.flv

Yang Jwing Ming also mentions learning this weapon as part of his white crane curriculum, in his white crane book.

The author of the "Shantung Black Tiger: shaolin art of northern china" book also mentions the cha/sai (and has a picture drawn), as a common kung fu weapon.

I guess all these guys have mixed in Okinawan kobudo with their kung fu, since there obviously aren't enough Chinese weapons to form a well rounded curriculum.

I have no hard evidence of the nunchaku's evolution in China, however there are several related sectional weapons that we know are Chinese, including the three sectional staff, and the two sectional staff/flail.
I can say from experience that SD does not teach nunchaku the way it is in Okinawan kobudo.
The SD cha/sai form is certainly not Okinawan. Just one look at the stances and footwork used will tell you that, not to mention the actual method of holding and using the weapon. But you wouldn't know that if you never actually learned the SD cha form, or any Okinawan sai forms.

[kwaichang]

How many times can the same subject be discussed ? on this forum endless.
I will be in Lexington this weekend MKRiii you can come and stuff me. I am old fat and just over came an injury care to give it a go . Just post on here for a friendly match. KC

[Baqualin]

How many times can the same subject be discussed ? on this forum endless.
I will be in Lexington this weekend MKRiii you can come and stuff me. I am old fat and just over came an injury care to give it a go . Just post on here for a friendly match. KC

Hey KC,
I'll be there Sat. morning around 9:30 am....I start my class at 10.....come on in.
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

I know some years ago you had to buy patches to put on you gi. The patch of the belt tied in a knot and the patch of the hand open and then you had to buy more patches at advance belts. I know that when you get to like Brown belt (i think) you have to take a speacial class either in Tai Chi or Ba Qua and it costs additional money each month to take this class. If you don't learn this then you can't advance in belt rank. Also there was a seminar that Sin Thev taught last year covering a specific form. I can't remember what it was but you had to have it for a particular belt and the only way you could learn it was by taking this seminar (which of course you had to pay for). What rank are you bodhi warrior?

I'm a 1st black. I've been in and out of formal classes since '82. I've pretty much decided to narrow my practice to black tiger and dragon styles. I just don't need anymore material.

[Judge Pen]

How many times can the same subject be discussed ? on this forum endless.
I will be in Lexington this weekend MKRiii you can come and stuff me. I am old fat and just over came an injury care to give it a go . Just post on here for a friendly match. KC
The same subject can be discussed on this forum endlessly! That's the beauty of the internet and selective memory. The thing is we discussed the "sai" directly with mrkiii but either he has a horrible memory, or his mind can conceive that he may be incorrect or misinformed on a subject, so he keeps restating the premise to the wind in hopes that the number of times a statement is made will somehow be indicative of its correctness. In the words of the bard, "full of sound and fury but signifying nothing."

[arinathos.valin]

Bodhi,
I'll bite from the peanut gallery...

Regarding Hung I Hsiang and his use of the Japanese/Okinawan gi, the outer trappings were certainly Okinawan, but the core movements that he used were Xingyi, Bagua, and other chinese arts. Shaolin-Do, while it incorporates many chinese forms, have a different 'flavor' to them.

I'm actually one of those people who were bugged by the fact that the gis were used, but it wasn't the only thing that made me question the lineage of SD as it was described to me. There were a number of things that 'added up' so to speak.

[Baqualin]

Bodhi,
I'll bite from the peanut gallery...

Regarding Hung I Hsiang and his use of the Japanese/Okinawan gi, the outer trappings were certainly Okinawan, but the core movements that he used were Xingyi, Bagua, and other chinese arts. Shaolin-Do, while it incorporates many chinese forms, have a different 'flavor' to them.

Depends on who your watching;)

I'm actually one of those people who were bugged by the fact that the gis were used, but it wasn't the only thing that made me question the lineage of SD as it was described to me. There were a number of things that 'added up' so to speak.

scjchgub;vjhgue;jverigked

[arinathos.valin]

BQ, That's probably fair, as I haven't seen EVERYONE in SD. I'd say that in the tournaments I've seen, there have been some practitioners who have come a lot closer to what I'd consider to be a 'chinese' flavor than others.

I haven't forgotten about BQ's gracious offer to visit the Lexington school... (and there is no sarcasm implied at all in that statement). I just haven't been able to make it down that way.

BTW... I was hoping to actually sneak a post in on page 500, but too many of you got there before I did. Since then I've been lurking. Hope everyone had a happy Thanksgiving and is looking forward to the holidays!

[Baqualin]

BQ, That's probably fair, as I haven't seen EVERYONE in SD. I'd say that in the tournaments I've seen, there have been some practitioners who have come a lot closer to what I'd consider to be a 'chinese' flavor than others.

Those were the dedicated ones who listen and practice everyday

I haven't forgotten about BQ's gracious offer to visit the Lexington school... (and there is no sarcasm implied at all in that statement). I just haven't been able to make it down that way.

I know you haven't.....hope you make it down someday, lunch is on me!!!!

BTW... I was hoping to actually sneak a post in on page 500, but too many of you got there before I did. Since then I've been lurking. Hope everyone had a happy Thanksgiving and is looking forward to the holidays!

I know I missed it too


I was just poking fun at you.....it's always good to see you on here, Happy Holidays to you!!!!
BQ

[Mas Judt]

You know I'm the first to point out that SD just does not teach all the stuff they claim - just looking at it reveals that clearly, not to mention watching Sin The' move. If you really want to learn the specific systems - taiji, bagua, north mantis, xing yi, whatever - you are better off training with someone from an authentic background and actually knows those methods.

But the gi - who cares. And I am certain that you can find the sai in China - only it is a short sword, not a potato picker (one of the funniest BS stories ever - why waste precious, rare iron on a potato picker?). It is a common short sword design in SEAsia.

[Mas Judt]

I will be in Lexington this weekend MKRiii you can come and stuff me. I am old fat and just over came an injury care to give it a go . Just post on here for a friendly match. KC

KC, you aren't coming on to that poor guy are you?:eek: