Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[arinathos.valin]

LOL, BQ just upped the reasons for going down to Lexington... I'd do a lot for a free lunch! ;)

And, of course, no offense taken whatsoever!

[kwaichang]

Nah i have offered to match him before but he didnt take the bait, I am just bored in knoxville even having my A$$ kicked would be fun. KC

[Mas Judt]

Understandable.

Most don't realize how fun this stuff is once you throw the ego out the window.

[tattooedmonk]

Nah i have offered to match him before but he didnt take the bait, I am just bored in knoxville even having my A$$ kicked would be fun. KC well for all you guys in Ky. and Tn. I am planning a trip there in february and would love to kick a little @$$ and get mine kicked, alittle.:D:p:eek::cool:

[tattooedmonk]

You know I'm the first to point out that SD just does not teach all the stuff they claim - just looking at it reveals that clearly, not to mention watching Sin The' move. If you really want to learn the specific systems - taiji, bagua, north mantis, xing yi, whatever - you are better off training with someone from an authentic background and actually knows those methods.

But the gi - who cares. And I am certain that you can find the sai in China - only it is a short sword, not a potato picker (one of the funniest BS stories ever - why waste precious, rare iron on a potato picker?). It is a common short sword design in SEAsia.what is it that you mean by SD does not teach this material, because it is obvious that they do , what you really mean to say is that, they do not teach it the way you would learn it at a school that specializes in these styles, correct??

[Mas Judt]

No, I meant what I said. These apples are pretty far from the orchard, even accounting for typical variation of the % of cr@ppy teachers. If you guys didn't claim all these different systems, you would not eat so much cr@p.

I cite the clip of sin the' demoing north mantis. It makes this observation most apparent. the folks I've seen that inch towards accuracy seem to have good social lives with folks who actually practice those methods - so draw your own conclusions.

[Baqualin]

No, I meant what I said. These apples are pretty far from the orchard, even accounting for typical variation of the % of cr@ppy teachers. If you guys didn't claim all these different systems, you would not eat so much cr@p.

I cite the clip of sin the' demoing north mantis. It makes this observation most apparent. the folks I've seen that inch towards accuracy seem to have good social lives with folks who actually practice those methods - so draw your own conclusions.

I hear you...but don't you think it's a bit much to base part of your conclusion on a few seconds clip of him throwing a few strikes...not demoing northern mantis.
BQ

[Mas Judt]

You can tell a lot from a little. Especially if it is *good enough* to put on commercial video. I've seen other footage of Sin The' - it all looks the same.

There is something underneath all of this stuff that is consistent - it often gets called kenpo or karate like. This is probable as Karate has a big influence on a lot of MA in the Nusantra. But so does Nan Quan and variations of Southern Fist. But it is certainly NOT the 'original combat versions' of the plethora of systems Sin The' claims to teach.

But weirdness, half-truths and surprising bits of truth litter the Indonesian martial arts seen. So enjoy what you got, just don't be surprised when no one else takes it too seriously.

[tattooedmonk]

You can tell a lot from a little. Especially if it is *good enough* to put on commercial video. I've seen other footage of Sin The' - it all looks the same.

There is something underneath all of this stuff that is consistent - it often gets called kenpo or karate like. This is probable as Karate has a big influence on a lot of MA in the Nusantra. But so does Nan Quan and variations of Southern Fist. But it is certainly NOT the 'original combat versions' of the plethora of systems Sin The' claims to teach.

But weirdness, half-truths and surprising bits of truth litter the Indonesian martial arts seen. So enjoy what you got, just don't be surprised when no one else takes it too seriously.Just because it may or may not have a kempo or karate flavor to it, :rolleyes:does it make it any less Chinese in origin, Kung Fu or effective as a martial art?? I am wondering why it is that GMS has not been called out by the "Real Chinese Kung Fu Masters",:rolleyes: If what he says is lies and does not know or teach what he says he does .:D

GMS has over 100 schools/ programs across the US. and there are plenty of people who believe in him and what he teaches and take very him seriously.It is easy to judge something that you do not understand and contradicts many things that are believed by the masses .But it does not make it untrue or a lie.

[mkriii]

Sin The' does have 100's of schools across the country but Charlie Manson had 100's of followers as did Jim Jones. Does Sin The' offer cool aid to his students after a hard work out????? LOL. Just because he has 100's of schools does not mean that he teaches what he says. It just means there are a lot of misguided people out there that are willing to pay their hard earned money on something that isn't so. If GMS would just call his style what it is then all would be fine. My problem is that IMO he doesn't teach what he claims to teach. He teaches a little hodge podge of everything....a little karate, a little kung fu, a little kempo, etc..... If he truely teaches Chinese Kung Fu why then would you put yourself, your style, and your students through all the harassing comments made by other people and styles? Why not wear the chinese uniform, do away with Japanese terms, and make your style look more like a Chinese art like you claim it to be. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Baqualin]

Sin The' does have 100's of schools across the country but Charlie Manson had 100's of followers as did Jim Jones. Does Sin The' offer cool aid to his students after a hard work out????? LOL. Just because he has 100's of schools does not mean that he teaches what he says. It just means there are a lot of misguided people out there that are willing to pay their hard earned money on something that isn't so. If GMS would just call his style what it is then all would be fine. My problem is that IMO he doesn't teach what he claims to teach. He teaches a little hodge podge of everything....a little karate, a little kung fu, a little kempo, etc..... If he truely teaches Chinese Kung Fu why then would you put yourself, your style, and your students through all the harassing comments made by other people and styles? Why not wear the chinese uniform, do away with Japanese terms, and make your style look more like a Chinese art like you claim it to be. It just doesn't make sense to me.

OK Mr. smartie Markie....show me an official, original "TRADITIONAL" chinese martial arts uniform

[Flaca]

Sin The' does have 100's of schools across the country but Charlie Manson had 100's of followers as did Jim Jones. Does Sin The' offer cool aid to his students after a hard work out????? LOL. Just because he has 100's of schools does not mean that he teaches what he says. It just means there are a lot of misguided people out there that are willing to pay their hard earned money on something that isn't so. If GMS would just call his style what it is then all would be fine. My problem is that IMO he doesn't teach what he claims to teach. He teaches a little hodge podge of everything....a little karate, a little kung fu, a little kempo, etc..... If he truely teaches Chinese Kung Fu why then would you put yourself, your style, and your students through all the harassing comments made by other people and styles? Why not wear the chinese uniform, do away with Japanese terms, and make your style look more like a Chinese art like you claim it to be. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I guess he doesn't care what you (mkriii) think. Oh, wait, I don't either. To my knowledge, Sin The has no schools, he does have 1000's of students though. He is our grandmaster, and has our full respect. Not because he demands it, but because he's earned it.
I don't care what label is placed on my training; I do care that in the extremely unlikely event that I ever had to defend myself, I am 10 times more able than I would've been with out this training. I have no interest in comparing myself to other people, nor am I particularly interested in whether I can whip your behind. Furthermore, if I were ever in a fight, I'd want SDA folks beside me, especially GMS. If for no other reason that the training dictates that the highest order of mastery involves avoiding a fight completely.
"With power comes great responsibility" (I only quote from the best), and I don't think that most martial arts preach this sufficiently, and they should.

[Baqualin]

You can tell a lot from a little. Especially if it is *good enough* to put on commercial video. I've seen other footage of Sin The' - it all looks the same.

There is something underneath all of this stuff that is consistent - it often gets called kenpo or karate like. This is probable as Karate has a big influence on a lot of MA in the Nusantra. But so does Nan Quan and variations of Southern Fist. But it is certainly NOT the 'original combat versions' of the plethora of systems Sin The' claims to teach.

But weirdness, half-truths and surprising bits of truth litter the Indonesian martial arts seen. So enjoy what you got, just don't be surprised when no one else takes it too seriously.

Like Shaoliniscool I cannot speak with much authority on the external side.....the last 20 years I've only studied the internal side and have researched pretty heavily during this time.....I'm very satisfied with what I've learned (lots still left) from GMS and the other Masters in the school regarding this branch of our system.....the problems regarding SD seem to mostly come from mantis & tiger crane stylist....who are a dime a dozen and have a world of problems of their own. We don't get much flack from internal stylist once they meet us and discuss our program.
BQ

[Baqualin]

I guess he doesn't care what you (mkriii) think. Oh, wait, I don't either. To my knowledge, Sin The has no schools, he does have 1000's of students though. He is our grandmaster, and has our full respect. Not because he demands it, but because he's earned it.
I don't care what label is placed on my training; I do care that in the extremely unlikely event that I ever had to defend myself, I am 10 times more able than I would've been with out this training. I have no interest in comparing myself to other people, nor am I particularly interested in whether I can whip your behind. Furthermore, if I were ever in a fight, I'd want SDA folks beside me, especially GMS. If for no other reason that the training dictates that the highest order of mastery involves avoiding a fight completely.
"With power comes great responsibility" (I only quote from the best), and I don't think that most martial arts preach this sufficiently, and they should.

You are correct GMS has no schools anymore.
Very well said Flaca...I think most of us feel this way.

If you come up for any seminars or the fall tourney...look me up...Ben, M. Joe, & KC know me.
BQ

[BM2]

I know some years ago you had to buy patches to put on you gi. The patch of the belt tied in a knot and the patch of the hand open and then you had to buy more patches at advance belts. I know that when you get to like Brown belt (i think) you have to take a speacial class either in Tai Chi or Ba Qua and it costs additional money each month to take this class. If you don't learn this then you can't advance in belt rank. Also there was a seminar that Sin Thev taught last year covering a specific form. I can't remember what it was but you had to have it for a particular belt and the only way you could learn it was by taking this seminar (which of course you had to pay for). What rank are you bodhi warrior?


Now mkriii may be off on some things he has stated however mkriii is correct in you were required to have the patches on your gi but not any addtional ones as you advanced. You were not supposed to put anything else on your gi other than the ones on the shoulder and the two on the left side of the gi. Later, Master Hiang added the one on the right and it has changed twice since then. I know of no patches ever required as you advance but one instructor did issue a small patch if you took classes from him after a year, you didn't buy it.
The time frame during which mkiii was at the Sin The' Sports Center it was required that you take a specialty class in addition to the required material sometime during your brown belt before testing for your black. It didn't matter if your instructor knew it already.
The required specialty classes, I had assumed, was to help raise money during that time frame of the Sports Center. Utimately, the Sportscenter was lost anyway. I don't know of anything needed for rank advancement being required to be learned from a seminar last year or any material needed outside of what is required.
Now I have wondered what the SDA membership is all about :confused:
Of course I may have mis-stated something from memorey, if so please correct.

[Mas Judt]

I am wondering why it is that GMS has not been called out by the "Real Chinese Kung Fu Masters"

I don't think anyone actually cares about SD, actually. It usually generates a grunt and a chuckle.

[Lamassu]

Sin The' does have 100's of schools across the country but Charlie Manson had 100's of followers as did Jim Jones. Does Sin The' offer cool aid to his students after a hard work out????? LOL.

First off, Charles Manson didn't have 100's of followers, he had 12. Kinda like Jesus.


Just because he has 100's of schools does not mean that he teaches what he says. It just means there are a lot of misguided people out there that are willing to pay their hard earned money on something that isn't so.

Call me misguided, but I was taught exactly what I was told I would be taught, and I'm a very satisfied customer. So what, you hate Sin The because he's a capitalist? You hate America or something?


If GMS would just call his style what it is then all would be fine. My problem is that IMO he doesn't teach what he claims to teach. He teaches a little hodge podge of everything....a little karate, a little kung fu, a little kempo, etc.....

...and why should he, or any of us for that matter, listen to your asinine opinion? I love the accusations that skimp on specific details, it makes it so easy to b!tch about somebody's martial art. What specific forms does GST teach that are karate? Key words: specific forms!


If he truely teaches Chinese Kung Fu why then would you put yourself, your style, and your students through all the harassing comments made by other people and styles? Why not wear the chinese uniform, do away with Japanese terms, and make your style look more like a Chinese art like you claim it to be.

Because GST is a maniacal sadistic man that wants us to grow in our personal training, be healthy, more confident, and walk tall and proud of the martial art we're learning. That rat *******! How dare he give me the tools necessary to become a better person! :rolleyes:


It just doesn't make sense to me.

You're trolling and that chip on your shoulder never makes any sense to me.

[Baqualin]

Does Sin The' offer cool aid to his students after a hard work out????? LOL.

No, but sometimes he will share his Ginseng


If GMS would just call his style what it is then all would be fine. My problem is that IMO he doesn't teach what he claims to teach.

Shaolin Do is a massive collection of styles which DESENDED from the Shaolin Temple system in China.

This is what he claims to teach and does!



JKFHWUFBNJEWPUGJ

[Judge Pen]

Why not wear the chinese uniform, do away with Japanese terms, and make your style look more like a Chinese art like you claim it to be. It just doesn't make sense to me.


Some schools, including my teacher's, have done just that. We wear "chinese" unis (at least what most people would associate as a chinese uniform, BQ's point is well-taken) and call our forms "forms" instead of "katas". These things are surface changes only and do not affect how we do our material. It doesn't change anything or any real criticism.

[mkriii]

:)http://jonieuniforms.com/Shop/scripts/prodList.asp?idCatego

O.K. mister smartie, here are some examples of some traditional chinese uniforms. If you search this web site you'll see some others. How is that Mr. Smartie.

[mkriii]

He (Charles Manson) actually had more than 12 followers. Those were just his main followers that your talking about. He still has people writing him in prison that want to follow him to this day.

[MasterKiller]

:)http://jonieuniforms.com/Shop/scripts/prodList.asp?idCatego

O.K. mister smartie, here are some examples of some traditional chinese uniforms. If you search this web site you'll see some others. How is that Mr. Smartie.

Actually, there is no "Chinese uniform." The silk uniforms just mimic traditional Chinese clothing. A "traditional" kung fu workout uniform is an old shirt and an old pair of pants.

[Baqualin]

Actually, there is no "Chinese uniform." The silk uniforms just mimic traditional Chinese clothing. A "traditional" kung fu workout uniform is an old shirt and an old pair of pants.

Thank You!

[Baqualin]

:)http://jonieuniforms.com/Shop/scripts/prodList.asp?idCatego

O.K. mister smartie, here are some examples of some traditional chinese uniforms. If you search this web site you'll see some others. How is that Mr. Smartie.

Jonie's uniforms are great...I use them because you can get a white heavy cotton sam from them...I'm not much on silk PJ's.....I'm sure you enjoy yours though...bet it makes you feel like Hugh Heffner....what color do you wear Pink

[Baqualin]

He (Charles Manson) actually had more than 12 followers. Those were just his main followers that your talking about. He still has people writing him in prison that want to follow him to this day.

You seem to keeping up with old Charlie.......has he wrote you back yet

[mkriii]

Well the Sai form for one. As stated before Sai did not and is not a Chinese weapon therefore if he teaches a form using the sai it can not be a chinese kung fu form. You can look at my previous post and see that I stated where the sai originated from.

Why is it so hard for you Sin The' Cool Aid drinkers to admit that there are other styles besides kung fu that you all are learning?

You have yet to answer my question....Is Shaolin Do the same as Shaolin Kung Fu?

Why is it that the Shaolin temple does not call it Shaolin Do?

If Sin The' is the GM then why was a large donation needed to have a monument erected in his honor at the shaolin Temple? Why didn't the monks just erect the monument for free since his kung fu was supposedly originated from the temple?

Another thing, awarded the title grandmaster at age 25? Unheard of!!!!

Mastered 600+ forms? Possible but doubtful.

[mkriii]

I've never been to China but have had classmates and teachers that have gone to study/train and when they got back I saw pictures of their training. And you know what, all their trainer over there were wearing the silk pants and top with the sash.

What ever. All you SD people are brainwashed. Sin The' is god to you people. Go on and drink you cool aid.

[MasterKiller]

Coincidentally, the pictures that WhiteEarp sent me show Ie (if that's him) training in a wife beater and slacks.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=mkriii;823894]Well the Sai form for one. As stated before Sai did not and is not a Chinese weapon therefore if he teaches a form using the sai it can not be a chinese kung fu form. You can look at my previous post and see that I stated where the sai originated from.

DUH

"Sai"

http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x...ent=VHG32D.flv

Yang Jwing Ming also mentions learning this weapon as part of his white crane curriculum, in his white crane book. (I think you know him..is he lying)

The author of the "Shantung Black Tiger: shaolin art of northern china" book also mentions the cha/sai (and has a picture drawn), as a common kung fu weapon.



You have yet to answer my question....Is Shaolin Do the same as Shaolin Kung Fu?
Shaolin Do is a massive collection of styles which descended from the Shaolin Temple system in China

Why is it that the Shaolin temple does not call it Shaolin Do?

Because the Shaolin Temple doesn't teach SD

[Baqualin]

What ever. All you SD people are brainwashed. Sin The' is god to you people. Go on and drink you cool aid.[/QUOTE]

Kool Aid... Kool Aid.... Taste Great!!!!

[mkriii]

What does the Shaolin Temple teach then?

No I don't think Yang Dwing Ming is lying about learning the sai but does he claim it to be a Chinese weapon?

I have to agree with a earlier post. When you asked why no other kung fu teacher has called Sin The' out I think most kung fu teachers juck kind of chuckle at his name. I've heard several chuckles at his expense among fellow kung fu practitioners. Just go to any tournament (quality) and mention his name and watch the reaction.

Baqualin, I tell you what. There is a tournament coming this spring (march I think)in Hazard. Its called the Mountain Fellowship Tournament. I'll be competing (in fighting) at this tournament. Why not come to it. You can watch or compete if you like. That would give us a chance to meet. My teacher will be there as well as his (Grandmaster Wing Loc Ng). Several others will be there from Ng family but it is open to everybody. Last year there were people from Shorin ryu and Shaol Lin Do and Tae Kwon Do and all those other Do's.

[tattooedmonk]

You are correct GMS has no schools anymore.
Very well said Flaca...I think most of us feel this way.

If you come up for any seminars or the fall tourney...look me up...Ben, M. Joe, & KC know me.
BQI meant the schools under his guidance, hence his schools.

[Judge Pen]

Well the Sai form for one. As stated before Sai did not and is not a Chinese weapon therefore if he teaches a form using the sai it can not be a chinese kung fu form. You can look at my previous post and see that I stated where the sai originated from.

You're not listening. Read the post below (it's one of many non-SD people that acknoweldge that the "sai" has chinese origins.


And I am certain that you can find the sai in China - only it is a short sword, not a potato picker (one of the funniest BS stories ever - why waste precious, rare iron on a potato picker?). It is a common short sword design in SEAsia.

Why is it so hard for you Sin The' Cool Aid drinkers to admit that there are other styles besides kung fu that you all are learning?

We don't. I know lots of great kung fu people that have never trained in SD.

You have yet to answer my question....Is Shaolin Do the same as Shaolin Kung Fu?

No. It's different but its origins are in shaolin (we are just arguing about the degree of its origins and the purity of what exists today.)

Why is it that the Shaolin temple does not call it Shaolin Do?

Because they are different

If Sin The' is the GM then why was a large donation needed to have a monument erected in his honor at the shaolin Temple? Why didn't the monks just erect the monument for free since his kung fu was supposedly originated from the temple?

Sin The is the grandmaster of Shaolin Do.

Another thing, awarded the title grandmaster at age 25? Unheard of!!!!

If you say so

Mastered 600+ forms? Possible but doubtful.

If you say so. I'll say its possible to learn that many forms, but mastering them depends on the person and what people consider "a master".

Drop the Sai argument. It's just showing your ignorance.

[Judge Pen]

. You can look at my previous post and see that I stated where the sai originated from.


Didnt' you qoute wikipedia? :rolleyes: Dude, I can go there right now and add a chapter on the Chinese origin of the sai, cite the photos and sources that have been mentioned here and it would pass their quality control.

[Judge Pen]

I've never been to China but have had classmates and teachers that have gone to study/train and when they got back I saw pictures of their training. And you know what, all their trainer over there were wearing the silk pants and top with the sash.

What ever. All you SD people are brainwashed. Sin The' is god to you people. Go on and drink you cool aid.

Masterkiller is not an SD person. Neither is Mas Judt. Both of them have contradicted what you say. There is no such thing as a "traditional" kung fu uniform. That they were silks now to train the gwai lo's is far from credible evidence. It's a business now and part of the business is to cater to the perceptions and expectations of the customer.

[tattooedmonk]

You say that if GMS's name is mentioned people laugh and joke, but do you think that they would do it in front of him or one of his students?

[Judge Pen]

What does the Shaolin Temple teach then?

No I don't think Yang Dwing Ming is lying about learning the sai but does he claim it to be a Chinese weapon?

Yes. He does.

I have to agree with a earlier post. When you asked why no other kung fu teacher has called Sin The' out I think most kung fu teachers juck kind of chuckle at his name. I've heard several chuckles at his expense among fellow kung fu practitioners. Just go to any tournament (quality) and mention his name and watch the reaction.

And you've proven yourself to be such a credible source

Baqualin, I tell you what. There is a tournament coming this spring (march I think)in Hazard. Its called the Mountain Fellowship Tournament. I'll be competing (in fighting) at this tournament. Why not come to it. You can watch or compete if you like. That would give us a chance to meet. My teacher will be there as well as his (Grandmaster Wing Loc Ng). Several others will be there from Ng family but it is open to everybody. Last year there were people from Shorin ryu and Shaol Lin Do and Tae Kwon Do and all those other Do's.

Let me know about the date.

[Lamassu]

What does the Shaolin Temple teach then?

Baqualin, I tell you what. There is a tournament coming this spring (march I think)in Hazard. Its called the Mountain Fellowship Tournament. I'll be competing (in fighting) at this tournament. Why not come to it. You can watch or compete if you like. That would give us a chance to meet. My teacher will be there as well as his (Grandmaster Wing Loc Ng). Several others will be there from Ng family but it is open to everybody. Last year there were people from Shorin ryu and Shaol Lin Do and Tae Kwon Do and all those other Do's.

Wait a minute, you two should have already met. I seem to recall the two of you agreeing to meet at the Shaolin Do kwoon that Bagualin goes to. You both live in the same city, why are you afraid of Baqualin? He's only a Shaolin Do student and CLEARLY not as skilled a martial artist as yourself. :rolleyes:

I think you don't want to meet Baqualin or any other Shaolin Do student for that matter, because you are scared. Yeah, I remember those posts, I called you a coward because you would avoid Baqulin's invitations for a meet and greet, and here it is several months later and you still haven't met him, but you talk tough by inviting him to a tournament now? I was right, you are coward. Your asinine opinions now mean less than nothing to me.

[Flaca]

You are correct GMS has no schools anymore.
Very well said Flaca...I think most of us feel this way.

If you come up for any seminars or the fall tourney...look me up...Ben, M. Joe, & KC know me.
BQ.

I meant the schools under his guidance, hence his schools.
TTM, this is referring to a mkriii post, not yours, unless you are mkriii...
BQ, I haven't been to KY in 4 years. I keep hoping...

[Baqualin]

Baqualin, I tell you what. There is a tournament coming this spring (march I think)in Hazard. Its called the Mountain Fellowship Tournament. I'll be competing (in fighting) at this tournament. Why not come to it. You can watch or compete if you like. That would give us a chance to meet. My teacher will be there as well as his (Grandmaster Wing Loc Ng). Several others will be there from Ng family but it is open to everybody. Last year there were people from Shorin ryu and Shaol Lin Do and Tae Kwon Do and all those other Do's.

Why should I drive to Hazard to meet you? We live here in Lex. I already invited you to meet me...I even PM'd you my phone #....I'm very familiar with Dr. Ng & John D....one of my best friends & his sons were students of both....I know people at the current 4 seasons...the're good guys......some of them roll & tumble with some of our students on the side...they all respect each other.....they have let the past be the past and from your previous post I sense your beef is more with M. Hiang than GMS.....so go give him some sh!t....he's still right here in Lex. .....I'm a really nice person that likes to share knowledge & meet other MA's....with an open mind!!
BQ

[Baqualin]

Let me know about the date.

I bet Master P from WV will be at that one:D

[Mas Judt]

You say that if GMS's name is mentioned people laugh and joke, but do you think that they would do it in front of him or one of his students?

While I think it's rude, I don't think I'd be able to help myself with all those kersnappy patches.

And, um, I've met SDers over the past couple decades - and I was just as honest as I am here.

Don't fool yourself.

On the otherhand, there are individuals I have met on this board I would love to meet and even be friendly/nice all that good stuff. Guys like Bruce or Judge Pen - I bet they are good guys.

But the main true believer himself? I couldn't take him seriously. It's like meeting John C Kim only without the revulsion.

[brucereiter]

Well the Sai form for one. As stated before Sai did not and is not a Chinese weapon therefore if he teaches a form using the sai it can not be a chinese kung fu form. You can look at my previous post and see that I stated where the sai originated from.


i think the links below may help you change your opinion on the sai topic.
the photo linked below contains a weapon rack with among the several weapons shown are "sais" it was taken at the "southen shaolin temple" it is said they were dug up in the recent finds in the fukein area.

http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/?action=view&current=WeaponRackcloseup.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/WeaponRackcloseup.jpg
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/WeaponRackcloseup.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/WeaponRackcloseup.jpg



Why is it so hard for you Sin The' Cool Aid drinkers to admit that there are other styles besides kung fu that you all are learning?
what??? do you really want answers or ar you just stirring **** up?



You have yet to answer my question....Is Shaolin Do the same as Shaolin Kung Fu?
what is "shaolin kung fu" the question has many answers i would think.
what value does this question have?



Why is it that the Shaolin temple does not call it Shaolin Do?
who is "the shaolin temple" do you mean shi
another strange question ... what "it" are you asking about. "shaolin do" is a system here in the usa headed by sin kwang the'. it (shaolin do) is not the same organization as the monks who live their (shaolin temple) now.



If Sin The' is the GM then why was a large donation needed to have a monument erected in his honor at the shaolin Temple? Why didn't the monks just erect the monument for free since his kung fu was supposedly originated from the temple?that is a silly comment. i do not understand your logic.



Another thing, awarded the title grandmaster at age 25? Unheard of!!!!
his teacher gave his the title.
are you implying that ie chang ming did not name sin kwang the as the grandmaster f his system of martial arts training? if this is what you are saying where do you get your information from?



Mastered 600+ forms? Possible but doubtful.
shi de cheng, shi de yang and other shaolin monks have "mastered" or "learned" or "know" over 400 forms according to a interviews in kungfu magazine. some of these men are in their 20's. how could this be?

[bodhi warrior]

In Dr. Yang,jwing-ming's book "The essence of shaolin white crane" he outlines the material he learned from his master. I will quote the sai section:
" D. Sai(chai)
1. Seven star sai (qi xing chai)
2. Back rolling sai (bei gun chai)
3. Jumping crane sai (z'ong he chai)"
also there is a definition listed in appendix a:
"Sai (chai) a kind of hairpin for ancient women. Later, it was developed into a southern chinese weapon."
Anymore evidence needed?

[Judge Pen]

"Sai (chai) a kind of hairpin for ancient women. Later, it was developed into a southern chinese weapon."

Southern chnese women must've had bigass heads back in the day! :p

[sean_stonehart]

Southern chnese women must've had bigass heads back in the day! :p

Amy Winehouse...

[Baqualin]

While I think it's rude, I don't think I'd be able to help myself with all those kersnappy patches.

And, um, I've met SDers over the past couple decades - and I was just as honest as I am here.

Don't fool yourself.

On the otherhand, there are individuals I have met on this board I would love to meet and even be friendly/nice all that good stuff. Guys like Bruce or Judge Pen - I bet they are good guys.

But the main true believer himself? I couldn't take him seriously. It's like meeting John C Kim only without the revulsion.

I'd like to meet you Mas, you have a lot of knowledge of Indo arts...it would be interesting....I also think you would enjoy meeting GMS...I'm sure you would have alot to talk about (due to the Indo connection not BS)and I don't think you would be rude either...you might even take him a little serious.:)
BQ

[Baqualin]

Southern chnese women must've had bigass heads back in the day! :p

HAHAHAHA...Nice:D

[DPL]

Coincidentally, the pictures that WhiteEarp sent me show Ie (if that's him) training in a wife beater and slacks.

So are these now-near-mythical pics ever going to see the light of day? Wasn't there a web site in the works at some point?

Were you sworn to protect them with your life under some horribly dire threat to your family? Like they'd drag you and yours to watch the latest Tim Allen movie over and over again?

[MasterKiller]

So are these now-near-mythical pics ever going to see the light of day? Wasn't there a web site in the works at some point?

Were you sworn to protect them with your life under some horribly dire threat to your family? Like they'd drag you and yours to watch the latest Tim Allen movie over and over again?

Yup. Something like that.

[BM2]

Talk about the irony of it all, MK for years asked why you saw Master Ie in paintings and not in one photo. He asked for one photo and someone from Europe posts a pic with M. Hiang in it and WhiteEarp gets crap for it.:rolleyes:
First blood grooves and now hairpins:D There is so much crap that passes for the truth about Chinese weapons.

[Judge Pen]

First blood grooves and now hairpins:D There is so much crap that passes for the truth about Chinese weapons.


What? Are you saying that southern chinese women didn't have bigassed heads back in the day? :p

[Baqualin]

So are these now-near-mythical pics ever going to see the light of day? Wasn't there a web site in the works at some point?

Were you sworn to protect them with your life under some horribly dire threat to your family? Like they'd drag you and yours to watch the latest Tim Allen movie over and over again?

Here's one he sent MK

[MasterKiller]

Here's one he sent MK

Yup. There are 4 others, though. DId he send them all to you?

[Judge Pen]

Here's one he sent MK

Is that kung fu mantis, kun tao mantis or karate manits? I'm so confused.

[MasterKiller]

Is that kung fu mantis, kun tao mantis or karate manits? I'm so confused.

It's impossible to tell w/o the Karate Gis! :p

[Baqualin]

Yup. There are 4 others, though. DId he send them all to you?

Yup......... once again GMIe taught only Chinese, Period :)

[MasterKiller]

Yup......... once again GMIe taught only Chinese, Period :)

So why don't you post them and let everyone quit bugging me?

Seriously, you know how many PMs I get about these?

[bodhi warrior]

I never understood why a painting was used instead of a pic in the sd manual and web pages. I know alot of the other paintings on the school wall are taken from actual photos. So where are the photos of GM Ie? As an SD blackbelt I would like to see them.

[Baqualin]

So why don't you post them and let everyone quit bugging me?

Seriously, you know how many PMs I get about these?

The only other one worth posting has been posted...the one of Hiang....the other two are of some fat dude with a fumanchu and gold rings...not even related to us...oh I forgot the pictures of the school over there:rolleyes:

I still think it's a farce from one of Hiang's students.....why would someone in Denmark have a picture of M. Hiang....which I've seen before from one of Hiang's students....there's others out there claiming BS lineage to GMIe see link.
www.pakua.org/ click on Pakua...then click on Master Rogelio M Giordano for some more fun:eek:
BQ

[mkriii]

Just plain and simple, Sin The' and the majority of SD students martial art skills are crappy. Thats all there is to it. Every thing they do looks the same. There is no flavor in there forms. They actually look like they are doing karate or kempo or something other than kung fu. They look like robots. Their stances are weak. Their self defenses are unrealistic. All SD students think that thier m.a. skills are awesome when in fact they are not. They have been brainwashed to think that thier m.a. techniques are to deadly to be used in tournaments when in fact the reason for not wanting students to compete is so that they don't see how bad they really are. This is thr truth, I promise you that.

[MasterKiller]

The only other one worth posting has been posted...the one of Hiang....the other two are of some fat dude with a fumanchu and gold rings...not even related to us...oh I forgot the pictures of the school over there:rolleyes

Huh? None of the pictures I have show a fat dude with a Fu Manchu.

1 color Ie and guy, Ie blocking a strike in a low stance

1 B&W Ie and guy in Mantis stance (same as B&W posted earlier)

1 B&W group shot of class with Ie, maybe a young Sin The (maybe?), and some Judo guy in the picture.

1 color of 4 guys standing together (Ie, Earp's teacher, Hiang? and another Indo guy)

[mkriii]

O.K. I finally got the answer that I was looking for and that is that SD is not the same as Shaoling Kung Fu. Finally. Thats all I wanted. I have had several SD students say that SD is the same as Shaolin Kung Fu.

[tattooedmonk]

.there's others out there claiming BS lineage to GMIe see link.
www.pakua.org/ click on Pakua...then click on Master Rogelio M Giordano for some more fun:eek:
BQNow that is funny!!

[tattooedmonk]

Just plain and simple, Sin The' and the majority of SD students martial art skills are crappy. Thats all there is to it. Every thing they do looks the same. There is no flavor in there forms. They actually look like they are doing karate or kempo or something other than kung fu. They look like robots. Their stances are weak. Their self defenses are unrealistic. All SD students think that thier m.a. skills are awesome when in fact they are not. They have been brainwashed to think that thier m.a. techniques are to deadly to be used in tournaments when in fact the reason for not wanting students to compete is so that they don't see how bad they really are. This is thr truth, I promise you that.Shut your hole, B!ATCH

[Baqualin]

I never understood why a painting was used instead of a pic in the sd manual and web pages. I know alot of the other paintings on the school wall are taken from actual photos. So where are the photos of GM Ie? As an SD blackbelt I would like to see them.

The one in the manual is painted off a picture also.....there were very few pictures taken and I believe GMS might have a couple I don't know...here's one of the other pic's MK & I was talking about of Hiang and their Grand Father (in chinese terms could mean something totally different)...who some say is GMIe...I have not verified any of this.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Shut your hole, B!ATCH

Just Ignore...notice everyone else is.....he's an idiot.:)

[MasterKiller]

The one in the manual is painted off a picture also.....there were very few pictures taken and I believe GMS might have a couple I don't know...here's one of the other pic's MK & I was talking about of Hiang and their Grand Father (in chinese terms could mean something totally different)...who some say is GMIe...I have not verified any of this.
BQ

Yes, that's a cropped portion of the pic.

The actual pic has 4 people together, and one of them is the same white guy (Earp's teacher) from the Mantis pic, the blocking pic, and I also have an individual pic of him doing a high kick.

[Baqualin]

Huh? None of the pictures I have show a fat dude with a Fu Manchu.

1 color Ie and guy, Ie blocking a strike in a low stance

1 B&W Ie and guy in Mantis stance (same as B&W posted earlier)

1 B&W group shot of class with Ie, maybe a young Sin The (maybe?), and some Judo guy in the picture.

Got that one, but didn't see GMS in it.

1 color of 4 guys standing together (Ie, Earp's teacher, Hiang? and another Indo guy)

I think I have this too...I'll check when I get home

[MasterKiller]

I think I have this too...I'll check when I get home

I was thinking this kid on the far right looked like Sin (picture cropped), especially because he's right next Ie in the group picture.

[Baqualin]

I was thinking this kid on the far right looked like Sin (picture cropped), especially because he's right next Ie in the group picture.

Maybe...it's hard to tell...I will compare it to some pictures I have of a young GMS
tonight.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe...it's hard to tell...I will compare it to some pictures I have of a young GMS
tonight.

yes no maybe?

[tattooedmonk]

yes no maybe?Based on the bone structure and the way the face is poised I would say yes it is the same person.

[MasterKiller]

Based on the bone structure and the way the face is poised I would say yes it is the same person.

That's what I'm thinking.

Plus, the bone structure of Ie in the photos is very similar to the paintings. That's why I'm thinking they are real. See my pic.

[MasterKiller]

I still think it's a farce from one of Hiang's students.....why would someone in Denmark have a picture of M. Hiang

Plus, I know WhiteEarp's real name (from his email address), and it sounds Danish to me, or at least not your run-of-the-mill American name.

[Baqualin]

yes no maybe?

maybe...I can't confirm yet:D

[Baqualin]

Plus, I know WhiteEarp's real name (from his email address), and it sounds Danish to me, or at least not your run-of-the-mill American name.

I hear you, he emailed me about 5 times.....I still think it's from Hiangs camp...anybody can make up email names.....I told GMS about this and he was very adamant to me about GMIe only teaching chinese!!

Did you look at the link to the Pakua school....that guy claims to be the sole succesor to GMIe :rolleyes: Kinda ironic as controversial as we are.

[Mas Judt]

Looks like a lot of the SD videos I've seen. Maybe he DID lean from Master Ie.

[bodhi warrior]

I found out alittle about the pa kua guy who studied with Ie chang ming. Back in the 60's he studied aikido and karate. He went to a tournament or something in Korea, and someone told him of master ie. He said that no matter what you did you couldn't touch him. The pa kua guy met master ie and ask him to teach him. Master ie refused but eventually gave in when offered alot of money. According to my source, pa kua is all he learned from master ie. This is the info I was given.

[Mas Judt]

from whom? did ie travel to korea?

[bodhi warrior]

I got the info from a guy in their organization in NY.
As far as ie travelling to Korea, didn't someone have info on a letter from ie to sin about him travelling around china and Korea?

[Mas Judt]

Just curious. They look like SD, so could be an offshoot.

[kungfujunky]

that pa kua looks nothing like what we do.

[kungfujunky]

Is that kung fu mantis, kun tao mantis or karate manits? I'm so confused.



im curious why no one else with supersized opinions has chimed in on that.

[Mas Judt]

Because Judge Pen was making a funny.

He obviously loves his art - SD - and is willing to engage in discussion on the, shall we say questionable aspects of it - but also goes out and plays with others. So, he has a level of humor that Kool-aid drinkers (on either side of this discussion) can't get.

[Mas Judt]

I might also add, that he gives SD far more credibility than virtually anyone on this board (Bruce too, he is very cool, yet into his thing - another good representative.)

Many of us can agree to disagree and still find things to discuss.

[kungfujunky]

im curious what someone who didnt know the background of the pic would assume just by looking at it

[Judge Pen]

from whom? did ie travel to korea?

If that letter that supposedly went with GMS being promoted to 10th is acurate then "Yes, Ie did go to Korea." The letter references Ie traveling across China and even into Korea before settleing in Indonesia, but I have not verified its authenticity.

[tattooedmonk]

Just curious. They look like SD, so could be an offshoot.Why because of the GIs?? Get a grip.

[tattooedmonk]

that pa kua looks nothing like what we do.

agreed.:D......

[tattooedmonk]

I found out alittle about the pa kua guy who studied with Ie chang ming. Back in the 60's he studied aikido and karate. He went to a tournament or something in Korea, and someone told him of master ie. He said that no matter what you did you couldn't touch him. The pa kua guy met master ie and ask him to teach him. Master ie refused but eventually gave in when offered alot of money. According to my source, pa kua is all he learned from master ie. This is the info I was given.Sounds like BS . Don't you think??

[kungfujunky]

i never took ggm ie as a money grub

sounds interesting though

[BM2]

i never took ggm ie as a money grub

sounds interesting though


HMMmmmmmmm........ What do you know of Master Ie? :p

[Shaolin Wookie]

I swear, this thread is like an eternally flaming bag of poo on KFM's porch.

All the reccurent "I- think-SD-guys-are-quasicultists-and-believe-GM-Sin-is-the-one-true-savior-of-mankind, what?-so-most-of-you-say-you-aren't-and-you-have-an-open-mind-about-that-fact-and-you're-not-convinced-of-all-the-stories-and-you-admit-that-several-outside-influences-are-apparent-in-his-Indonesian-kung-fu-which-is-probably-only-shaolin-based?-well-i'm-going-to-ignore-that-and-pretend-like-i-never-heard-any-of-you-say-it-because-in-fact-I'm-the-brainwashed-cultist-who-cannot-process-information-because-I'm-an-idiot-and-I-have-this-wierd-thing-for-Sin-The'-probably-because-he-has-a-great-body-and-I'm-dealing-with-latent-****sexuality-issues-so-I-refuse-to-leave-him-alone,-and-god-I-wish-I-didn't,-but-it's-the-silk-pyjamas-I-wear-that-bring-it-out-in-me,-and-I-wonder-why-you-don't-want-to-wear-silk-pyjamas-when-clearly-they-make-you-punch-harder-and-more-manly,-and-make-you-look-official-even-if-you-can't-hit-worth-a-****-like-most-Chinese-martial-artists!"-posters, they're the poo. They stink, they're ugly, and they're pretty much useless waste with nothing to say, because they're poo.

As SD, we're the bag. We are the containers of the poo. We scoop it up and put it into this bag, and we tolerate it, and we say: "I'm sorry you're so stinky, poo. But you're poo. WE expect that you're going to get ****ty every once in a while, but we'll tolerate it because we're pretty tolerant, even if we have to pat you on the head and put you to sleep, and wind up getting poo on our hands. It's our job to contain you, because we don't want poo getting all over the place."

The flames that burn us are the comments the poo makes, fed by the methane the poo releases.

Gene Ching is the poor b@stard that has to occasionally stomp on the thread, and get **** on his shoes.

[BM2]

Dude, has anyone told you that you are full of crap?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Dude, has anyone told you that you are full of crap?

Yes, but since it came from a piece of poo, I just smiled and laughed in spite of him.:D

[Baqualin]

from whom? did ie travel to korea?

GMIe's travels were before he settled in Indonesia.....pre 50's......plus their calling their whole system Pakua:confused: plus it states he was the sole succesor of the system...ck your PM

[Mas Judt]

Hey BQ,
Here are some clips of CMA in Malaysia -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Wspd7GOb8

Except for the comment that CMA does not exist in China anymore (had me rolling on the floor - that IS very funny), it's a pretty neat example of CMA in the Nusantra.

As far as that guy - who knows - does he really claim it is the SAME Master Ie?

I've seen other tools claim ownership of entire 'mun', Gene Chocoine for example, or Sin The' on his websites (only Shaolin Grandmaster). It is a silly concept, and seems dependent upon people not knowing better and a lack of information.

I do find it odd that he claims Master Ie - I mean why bother unless he DID learn from him, as Master Ie is not really that well known outside of SD. Sin the' is also very clear that Ie did not teach non-Chinese. While it is not unheard of for a teacher to issue a certificate for cash and no training, especially in times of need, it all does kinda make you wonder.

Is there still an existing branch of Ie's school in Bandung? What do they call themselves?

[Citong Shifu]

Hey BQ,
Here are some clips of CMA in Malaysia -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Wspd7GOb8

Except for the comment that CMA does not exist in China anymore (had me rolling on the floor - that IS very funny), it's a pretty neat example of CMA in the Nusantra.

As far as that guy - who knows - does he really claim it is the SAME Master Ie?

I've seen other tools claim ownership of entire 'mun', Gene Chocoine for example, or Sin The' on his websites (only Shaolin Grandmaster). It is a silly concept, and seems dependent upon people not knowing better and a lack of information.

I do find it odd that he claims Master Ie - I mean why bother unless he DID learn from him, as Master Ie is not really that well known outside of SD. Sin the' is also very clear that Ie did not teach non-Chinese. While it is not unheard of for a teacher to issue a certificate for cash and no training, especially in times of need, it all does kinda make you wonder.

Is there still an existing branch of Ie's school in Bandung? What do they call themselves?


Of course there is or are many branch schools of Master Ie in Bandung or surrounding area's. After all, he taught more than just one desciple. From my understanding he had a fairly large school while in Indonesia. I'm not sure what they call themselves, but JP and some of the other guys were commenting on this subject a little while back... Can you guys (SD) spread some light on this please. I would like to look into the arts/styles taught in Bandung as well..

Thanks.
CS

[brucereiter]

Of course there is or are many branch schools of Master Ie in Bandung or surrounding area's. After all, he taught more than just one desciple. From my understanding he had a fairly large school while in Indonesia. I'm not sure what they call themselves, but JP and some of the other guys were commenting on this subject a little while back... Can you guys (SD) spread some light on this please. I would like to look into the arts/styles taught in Bandung as well..

Thanks.
CS

i have very little information about this topic but here are a few things i was told by my teacher about one of ie chang mings students.
"chi tung" was a student of grand master ie chang ming in bandung. i do not know the correct spelling of his name or how to contact him but my teacher met chi tung on their 1992 trip to bandung and did push hands etc with him and his senior student. i was told their tai chi chuan was very good.

another name i have been told about is "su tay" ... i have no idea how to spell his name . i understand that he is the person who gave gmt the case with all of the old notes from ie chang ming in 1992.

best,

bruce

[BlueTravesty]

Hey BQ,
Here are some clips of CMA in Malaysia -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Wspd7GOb8

Except for the comment that CMA does not exist in China anymore (had me rolling on the floor - that IS very funny), it's a pretty neat example of CMA in the Nusantra.


Didn't you get the memo? All that stuff is Modern Wushu :rolleyes: It's the Time-Traveling Modern Wushu Conspiracy. Not only did they manage to exterminate every last TCMA practitioner in one of the most populous countries on earth (statistics, schmatistics) the PRC went back in time 100 years and changed martial arts forms to look all "different"

Also the earth is flat and the sky is green.

[Judge Pen]

i have very little information about this topic but here are a few things i was told by my teacher about one of ie chang mings students.
"chi tung" was a student of grand master ie chang ming in bandung. i do not know the correct spelling of his name or how to contact him but my teacher met chi tung on their 1992 trip to bandung and did push hands etc with him and his senior student. i was told their tai chi chuan was very good.

another name i have been told about is "su tay" ... i have no idea how to spell his name . i understand that he is the person who gave gmt the case with all of the old notes from ie chang ming in 1992.

best,

bruce


"Su tay", or as I've heard it pronounced "Su Fei", was a college of Master Ie but not part of the same school. He was the one that gave him the cases of Ie's notes from what I've been told.

[kungfujunky]

i believe su fei also requested hsing yi tutelage from gmt at the same time he gave the notes

[kungfujunky]

i just double checked my notes and gmt told us all at a festival that story and he did in fact teach su fei hsing I.

[bodhi warrior]

The guys in that video have a "flavor" that's very similar to the way I was taught. I'll take that over modern shaolin any day.

[Shaolin-Do]

SHaolin Do is t3h real...
SO real it resurrects itself from the grave... as in my case.

Fear and be baffled by my awe inspiring powers....

Jesus...
I forgot the password to this account for years... literally...
And beautifully enough, I just remembered it.


... And remember, Support local hip hop!
f*ckers.

[BM2]

[QUOTE=Shaolin-Do;825037]

I forgot the password to this account for years... literally...
And beautifully enough, I just remembered it.

QUOTE]


Ahhh...We are soo lucky:p

[BM2]

I found out alittle about the pa kua guy who studied with Ie chang ming. Back in the 60's he studied aikido and karate. He went to a tournament or something in Korea, and someone told him of master ie. He said that no matter what you did you couldn't touch him. The pa kua guy met master ie and ask him to teach him. Master ie refused but eventually gave in when offered alot of money. According to my source, pa kua is all he learned from master ie. This is the info I was given.


Could you ask when he studied? I do know that Master Sin paid quite a bit more than the other students because his parents could afford it. That is paraphrased from what he had said. I usually refrain from quoting other people.

[kwaichang]

Go on You Tube and key in best fighter of the world and tell me what those guys are wearing ??? KC:)

[Mas Judt]

let me guess... japanese underwear?

who cares?

the gi thing doesn't really matter. it is the least of the questions about sd.

[BM2]

Board shorts?:D

[kwaichang]

Amazing how no one cares about what they are wearing when the Chinese Shaolin Martial Artists are wearing GI'S Hurts dont it. Denial I mean Mawahahahahahahah KC :)

[Mas Judt]

Do they have kersnappy patches too?

[kwaichang]

Patches are optional so you dont have a patch? Even BJJ has a patch. KC

[Mas Judt]

Nope. Never got into all those funky things. Hard to put them on sweats anyhow...

[Mas Judt]

But if you have a duck billed platypus one, I'd go for that...

[Lamassu]

What are we talking about again? I swear this happens every time a troll starts another d@mn flamewar. Okay, I'm going to start a new topic: SD peeps, have you ever traded hands with another martial artist outside of SD? It's a lot of fun and a wonderful learning experience. Also, after we spar/demonstrations and whatnot, we tend to have a mutual respect for each others martial art style and become friends.

You know what I think? I think any troll who starts talking crap about the effectiveness of our material has never crossed hands with us and is talking out of his @$$. As for the whole lineage thing of Shaolin Do: I don't really give a flying fuk either way. Yeah, yeah I know, controversy. I for one don't have any stakes or claims to the Shaolin Temples, so getting into a flaming contest with our local trolls about the lineage is pointless in my opinion. We all have our reasons for practicing martial arts and mine are focused on effectiveness of the material, practical applications and self defense. You know, I hung out with Oasis and Wutangforever here in Chicago yesterday, and though each of our respective arts are distinct, I couldn't help but notice certain similiarities between Choy Lay Fut, Shaolin Temple and Shaolin Do. For example, the j-ring stance that is common in most Choy Lay Fut forms reminds me of our own incorporation of the j-ring stance in forms like He Hu Huan Sen. It was a fun and enlightening experience and I look forward to the next time we get together and practice some more kung fu.

As martial artists we must remember the most important element of any and every particular style is the material taught. Is it effective or not, is it your cup of tea or not? While it's important to know your history and where your style came from, you shouldn't lose sight of why you're there in the first place: to practice kung fu.

[tattooedmonk]

What are we talking about again? I swear this happens every time a troll starts another d@mn flamewar. Okay, I'm going to start a new topic: SD peeps, have you ever traded hands with another martial artist outside of SD? It's a lot of fun and a wonderful learning experience. Also, after we spar/demonstrations and whatnot, we tend to have a mutual respect for each others martial art style and become friends.

You know what I think? I think any troll who starts talking crap about the effectiveness of our material has never crossed hands with us and is talking out of his @$$. As for the whole lineage thing of Shaolin Do: I don't really give a flying fuk either way. Yeah, yeah I know, controversy. I for one don't have any stakes or claims to the Shaolin Temples, so getting into a flaming contest with our local trolls about the lineage is pointless in my opinion. We all have our reasons for practicing martial arts and mine are focused on effectiveness of the material, practical applications and self defense. You know, I hung out with Oasis and Wutangforever here in Chicago yesterday, and though each of our respective arts are distinct, I couldn't help but notice certain similiarities between Choy Lay Fut, Shaolin Temple and Shaolin Do. For example, the j-ring stance that is common in most Choy Lay Fut forms reminds me of our own incorporation of the j-ring stance in forms like He Hu Huan Sen. It was a fun and enlightening experience and I look forward to the next time we get together and practice some more kung fu.

As martial artists we must remember the most important element of any and every particular style is the material taught. Is it effective or not, is it your cup of tea or not? While it's important to know your history and where your style came from, you shouldn't lose sight of why you're there in the first place: to practice kung fu.All very true. It seems that the only problems are the Japanese terminology , Japanese GI, questionable lineage, and the body of material.

All of this is questionable in all the CMAs that I have seen. Fukien five animals / Families?? I mean really most of the lineages from others styles now are suspect. As for the uniforms, as anyone can see from the old paintings inside the temple the uniforms are far closer to what we wear than the supposed "traditional " style uniforms that are worn by other schools. Speaking of which ,have you seen some of these so called uniforms? Fruity if you ask me. Actually we use both Chinese and Japanese terminology .Basically it is just another dialect of the same language. The characters are the same anyway.

I think most people are just jealous.:D

[sean_stonehart]

You know, I hung out with Oasis and Wutangforever here in Chicago yesterday, and though each of our respective arts are distinct, I couldn't help but notice certain similiarities between Choy Lay Fut, Shaolin Temple and Shaolin Do. For example, the j-ring stance that is common in most Choy Lay Fut forms reminds me of our own incorporation of the j-ring stance in forms like He Hu Huan Sen. It was a fun and enlightening experience and I look forward to the next time we get together and practice some more kung fu.


Come again?? What stance? If it's what I remember you saying it is, it's not even close.

[Lamassu]

Come again?? What stance? If it's what I remember you saying it is, it's not even close.

I've never commented about the j-ring stance before my last post. I could be mistaken in the terminology, but it's where both legs are bent at approximately 90* angles, one in front of the other. here's an example:

http://www.kungfu-taichicenter.com/images/twist2.jpg

when Oasis was demonstrating the 10 elements or 10 lines (I'm not sure which set), in accordance to Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association, I noticed that his legs would assume the posture as demonstrated in the photo I included, and I noticed we SDer's assume a similar stance in Hei Hu Huan Sen. Anyway, just an observation.

[kungfujunky]

we assume that stance in a ton of different forms.

drunken
5 animal
tiger
crane

lots!

[tattooedmonk]

I've never commented about the j-ring stance before my last post. I could be mistaken in the terminology, but it's where both legs are bent at approximately 90* angles, one in front of the other. here's an example:

http://www.kungfu-taichicenter.com/images/twist2.jpg

when Oasis was demonstrating the 10 elements or 10 lines (I'm not sure which set), in accordance to Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association, I noticed that his legs would assume the posture as demonstrated in the photo I included, and I noticed we SDer's assume a similar stance in Hei Hu Huan Sen. Anyway, just an observation.
That looks more like the female stance or crossed leg stance than the jade ring stance.

[tattooedmonk]

we assume that stance in a ton of different forms.

drunken
5 animal
tiger
crane

lots!+1 for sure.

[kungfujunky]

yeah jade ring is ....how would you describe it...a really high monkey leg stance?

[Mas Judt]

You know what I think? I think any troll who starts talking crap about the effectiveness of our material has never crossed hands with us and is talking out of his @$$.

Very funny. Go back through the history of any gong sau between Sd and decent CMA. It doesn't look good.

No one cares about the gi's. What people care about are the claims of teaching things - that SD is not suited to teach. Example: Sin The's Preying Mantis demo. - Demonstrated that he does not know Northern Mantis.

[kwaichang]

A DEMO is just that not restricted to actual forms taught in their entirety. As you judge so shall ye be judged. Mas normally you seem to be ok but then maybe i shouldnt judge you by those small moments. KC
Go Rue Paul for pres right Mas ???
BTW Lamassu that is not a pic of a Jade Ring stance you posted.

[sean_stonehart]

BTW Lamassu that is not a pic of a Jade Ring stance you posted.


He's right... that's a twist horse/unicorn horse/lady horse/etc... Many CMA's use that posture for different things. You'll find it all over.

[Mas Judt]

KC - you are missing my point. I could give a sh!t about choreography - what I look at is the quality of the movement. Even doing a demo, a North Mantis player LOOKS like a North Mantis player. Sin The' just doesn't.

But hey, that's because you do the TRUE shaolin, from the only Shaolin Grandmaster in the world and it's the 'old' way lost in China, right?

Too bad the North Mantis lineage still exists and is string in it's hometown. Try asking them what they think.

[oasis]

lamassu, there was another movement often done in the end of my forms where i would get into a low kneeling stance while punching forward, but in that case my front foot is still facing forward as opposed to being turned out as in the twisted stance (lok gwai ma). thus, i think the former was more similar to the jade ring stance (yuhuan bu). yuhuan bu is common in praying mantis, and you can see it in the 7th and 8th pics here: http://www.northernmantis.com/bungbo.html (http://www.prayingmantis.com/bungbo.html)
the difference though is the praying mantis version is much more wider then the one in choy lay fut, and as you and i were discussing, the twisted stance is very prominent in clf.

[kungfujunky]

what style did brendan lai (sp my bad if i mispelled that) do?

ive heard from a lot of upper black belts(as well as the gm) that he held our elder masters and grandmaster in great esteem and he seems to be one of the most widely known mantis masters of his time.

[oasis]

he did seven star mantis (qixing tang lang)

this is him doing the form i just linked to above:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1OuZDo-s20

and this is the two man version!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG3533Rktzg

[Mas Judt]

ive heard from a lot of upper black belts(as well as the gm) that he held our elder masters and grandmaster in great esteem and he seems to be one of the most widely known mantis masters of his time.

You might want to check with his son on this one...

[Leto]

what style did brendan lai (sp my bad if i mispelled that) do?

ive heard from a lot of upper black belts(as well as the gm) that he held our elder masters and grandmaster in great esteem and he seems to be one of the most widely known mantis masters of his time.

They were at least valued customers of his martial arts supply store. The elder masters and instructors got a special tour of the store, and were allowed to go in the back where they keep all the "good stuff" during a trip there. I don't know that there was ever any sharing of martial arts, though.

[sean_stonehart]

They were at least valued customers of his martial arts supply store. The elder masters and instructors got a special tour of the store, and were allowed to go in the back where they keep all the "good stuff" during a trip there. I don't know that there was ever any sharing of martial arts, though.

So did I. Not such a big deal when you ask. ;)

Al & Mrs Lai also sat talked with me & my sifu for a while since we were in town from out here. They were incredibly gracious & forthcoming with their time for us.

[Lamassu]

lamassu, there was another movement often done in the end of my forms where i would get into a low kneeling stance while punching forward, but in that case my front foot is still facing forward as opposed to being turned out as in the twisted stance (lok gwai ma). thus, i think the former was more similar to the jade ring stance (yuhuan bu). yuhuan bu is common in praying mantis, and you can see it in the 7th and 8th pics here: http://www.northernmantis.com/bungbo.html (http://www.prayingmantis.com/bungbo.html)
the difference though is the praying mantis version is much more wider then the one in choy lay fut, and as you and i were discussing, the twisted stance is very prominent in clf.

Okay, yeah, I do remember a difference between the two postures now that you mentioned it. Like I said, I wasn't sure about the terminology when I posted the pic. My point being, was that I noticed similarities between our respective styles, and to me, that validates the material SD teaches even though it's unique all on it's own. Like ALL styles of martial arts there's this commonality in the various forms that, I think, originated from Shaolin. Again, I'm not really concerned with the history, I focus on the material itself.

I'm personally interested in practicing Choy Lay Fut (especially Ving Tsun), and the Chicago Shaolin Temple. Now I know this is going to open a whole new can of worms here, but I don't see my interest in other styles as some silly betrayal of trust to Grandmaster Sin The. This isn't the Opium Wars here, and considering I'm a full state away from the nearest SD kwoon, I'm going to look for other styles that I respect and intrigue me. I have complete confidence in my abilities with what Shaolin Do has taught me, and I practice my forms religiously, but being the only SDer here, I'm not going to shut myself off from the entire martial art community, simply because I'm the only one here in Chicago. Isolationism is bad, just ask any UN nation.

In the end, I'm on a personal journey to improve my kung fu and learn new and exciting forms and though I'm loyal to SD, I'm more loyal to myself and my family. And we want to continue learning kung fu in a kwoon environment and have diversity in the styles that we practice.

[Baqualin]

Okay, yeah, I do remember a difference between the two postures now that you mentioned it. Like I said, I wasn't sure about the terminology when I posted the pic. My point being, was that I noticed similarities between our respective styles, and to me, that validates the material SD teaches even though it's unique all on it's own. Like ALL styles of martial arts there's this commonality in the various forms that, I think, originated from Shaolin. Again, I'm not really concerned with the history, I focus on the material itself.

I'm personally interested in practicing Choy Lay Fut (especially Ving Tsun), and the Chicago Shaolin Temple. Now I know this is going to open a whole new can of worms here, but I don't see my interest in other styles as some silly betrayal of trust to Grandmaster Sin The. This isn't the Opium Wars here, and considering I'm a full state away from the nearest SD kwoon, I'm going to look for other styles that I respect and intrigue me. I have complete confidence in my abilities with what Shaolin Do has taught me, and I practice my forms religiously, but being the only SDer here, I'm not going to shut myself off from the entire martial art community, simply because I'm the only one here in Chicago. Isolationism is bad, just ask any UN nation.

In the end, I'm on a personal journey to improve my kung fu and learn new and exciting forms and though I'm loyal to SD, I'm more loyal to myself and my family. And we want to continue learning kung fu in a kwoon environment and have diversity in the styles that we practice.

Lamassa,
It's your life and your business...if it opens up any worms then they need to crawl back into the ground where they came from. I personally think it's great to interact with other styles and other MA's...............M. Smith studied under another Tai Chi teacher.......h*ll call up Mas and check out his school....looks pretty cool to me
BQ[/QUOTE]

[BM2]

Well, considering we all (at least the Americans on this site) are brought up believing in freedoms, what could you do that is in any way different from what M. Ie did when he met different Masters while travelling in China, Korea and Japan?

[BM2]

Oh yeah, how about the Masters that were invited to the Shao-Lin temple? And I agree with the worms...er maggots:D needing to care about themselves rather than other people.

[Shaolin Wookie]

What are we talking about again? I swear this happens every time a troll starts another d@mn flamewar. Okay, I'm going to start a new topic: SD peeps, have you ever traded hands with another martial artist outside of SD? It's a lot of fun and a wonderful learning experience. Also, after we spar/demonstrations and whatnot, we tend to have a mutual respect for each others martial art style and become friends.
.

That's what I'm talking about. That's been my experience. Nobody fronts in person when you're one-on-one. You trade punches/kicks, sit down, talk some MA, and then part ways. Whether or not someone talks about me behind my back....not my concern. If I've just slapped him around like a rag doll....LOL....

Anyways...yeah, man. If you don't live near a school you're loyal to, train elsewhere. Who cares what? Just pick something fun and interesting that'll build on your skills. I never thought Capoeira would further my martial acumen, but it did--not just body movement.

Good luck. And if you visit Mas's school, don't drink the tea. He slipped a mickey in it and he plans on taking you to the back room to "gong sau" your passed-out ass.:eek:

Just ask MK.

[MasterKiller]

So no one except TTM has an opinion on the pictures I posted last week? Man, I figured that would have generated some discussion.

[Mas Judt]

Historically, there has been great secrecy in CMA circles, with loyalty to your group being paramount. The extremes of this was usually found Southern China, where various 'sects' often had political and criminal agendas.

Cross training was common among some, but not all MA groups.

Secrecy also became a big deal with teachers looking to make money teaching, or to hide the fact that they actually did not know what they claimed.

In today's world, there is so much information floating so freely, and a great many myths have been put to rest.

Things can be much more open. Take advantage of it. If it upsets your teachers, ask them why it upsets them. Try to understand where they are coming from, then decide for yourself what you want to do.

Oh, and Shaolin Wookie, you shouldn't have come over all sloppy drunk like that, it was embarrasing, and I don't swing that way. :D

[Lamassu]

Historically, there has been great secrecy in CMA circles, with loyalty to your group being paramount. The extremes of this was usually found Southern China, where various 'sects' often had political and criminal agendas.

In today's world, there is so much information floating so freely, and a great many myths have been put to rest.

Things can be much more open. Take advantage of it. If it upsets your teachers, ask them why it upsets them. Try to understand where they are coming from, then decide for yourself what you want to do.


I couldn't agree more, like I posted earlier, we're not in China during the Opium Wars, and considering that only about 5% of the United States practice ANY martial art, I don't think there's any real danger to not keeping these so called "secrets" from the public. If anything, it's more likely to encourage new students to join.

What I've noticed (based on movies, books and the internet:p), was that these various schools competing with each other back in the day, were fighting for their very survival (territory, revenue, amenites from local shops, etc.), kinda like gangs are today in the U.S. Modern schools don't need to worry about that, we can buy our own food, shelter our own family and take care of ourselves outside the kwoon, so now whichever kwoon we go to for training, it's akin to going to a Crunch gym or the YMCA to work out. No need for secrets.

[Mas Judt]

Yep. My Shuai Chiao teacher was often told he was 'too open' and 'taught too much' (We're talking the 80's here) - but his feeling was only a few would really train and get it anyhow.

I do not begrudge anyone privacy, if they so choose, but I don't like folks who try to control your association with others.

[Lamassu]

Yep. My Shuai Chiao teacher was often told he was 'too open' and 'taught too much' (We're talking the 80's here) - but his feeling was only a few would really train and get it anyhow.

I do not begrudge anyone privacy, if they so choose, but I don't like folks who try to control your association with others.

One thing that always bugged me, is there are no SD forms being demonstrated on youtube (except for a couple here and there). I think that's ridiculous because the fear is "well somebody can watch the video and then learn that form", and I'm like really? Maybe it's just me but when I'm in front of my computer, I don't have a lot of room to jump around and there's no way in hell anyone can actually learn a form that's being shown as a demonstration. If that were the case then who needs kwoons, I'll just pick up a copy of "Shaolin: Wheel of Life" and through osmosis become the greatest shaolin monk in the world! :eek: No seriously, watching SD forms demonstrated on youtube would be motivating to the students, enticing to potential students, and evidence that we can really do stuff. Personally, I think SD is missing out by not posting more kung fu forms (shaolindoiscool and M. Grooms have tai chi covered :) )on the net.

[WhiteEarp]

Hi guys,

Been awhile. But i'm back. I'm happy to anounce that my master wanted some videos on youtube, more are still to come. But this one shows how kung fu looks like no karate movements or fancy high kicks.(sorry that the video is on his side, still figuring that part out)
This is my teacher and he was taught at bandung.
Please tell me what you think!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABj787p18Qo&feature=related

[WhiteEarp]

O and another one with a student showing a piece of our long form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfohsDvs0GI&feature=related

[Mas Judt]

One thing that always bugged me, is there are no SD forms being demonstrated on youtube (except for a couple here and there). I think that's ridiculous because the fear is "well somebody can watch the video and then learn that form"

Well, that does happen a great deal. The other school that teaches a million styles, Green Dragon (ohio) was famous for that. The end result is White Eyebrow and Baji that is just weird.

[Lamassu]

Well, that does happen a great deal. The other school that teaches a million styles, Green Dragon (ohio) was famous for that. The end result is White Eyebrow and Baji that is just weird.

Feh. :mad: Well, whichever kwoon I join next year, they shouldn't have a problem of me taping a demonstration of the forms I learn. I've seen plenty of Shaolin temple demonstrations as well as choy lay fut on youtube, so that'll be good.

[sean_stonehart]

Feh. :mad: Well, whichever kwoon I join next year, they shouldn't have a problem of me taping a demonstration of the forms I learn. I've seen plenty of Shaolin temple demonstrations as well as choy lay fut on youtube, so that'll be good.

I wouldn't rush into taping & posting to Youtube or the like. You've been doing SD for a while. You're going to still move like it for a while. If you're videoing for your own reference, way cool.

All you'll look like is somebody from SD doing a form from another style that's still not quite right. Get solid practice time in first. Then post it up.

[BentMonk]

I still don't get the "not quite right" or "lacking TCMA flavor" comments that get tossed around. It seems like a cop out to avoid having to admit that SD doesn't suck quite as bad as some say it does. There has IMO, been enough recent evidence posted on this thread to qualify SD as a MA with Shaolin or at least TCMA roots. I think the biggest flaw with SD is the number of new black belts that rush out and open a school. There is no way that they have enough of a grasp on the material they've learned to teach it effectively. We all know where instruction with shaky foundations leads. Now, some smart ass is going to say that the shaky foundation starts with GM Sin. Anyone who has seen more of GM Sin than a 30 second cliip knows how ridiculous that statement would be. The "my style is better than your style" banter has been around as long as MA. It's the plot of most kung fu movies. It's just gotten bigger and more redundant thanks to the Internet. It's a pleasant distraction that can sometimes lead to mutual understanding, and the occasional friendship. It's not good for much beyond that. SD is no different than any other large MA organization. There's awesome, not so awesome, mediocre, and bad. As to the "outrageous claims made by GM Sin", it's marketing. Why be outraged? I don't see anyone from the temple in Hunan devoting 500 plus pages of discussion to denouncing SD. If anyone had a right to be offended by SD's claims it would be them. The rest of us are just a bunch of round eyes doing Westernized versions of TCMA. Yeah, yeah, I know, so and so is Chinese and has a lineage that can be traced back to so and so, blah, blah, blah. Those folks are few and the ones whose history and lineage stand up to genuine scrutiny are even fewer. So that leaves us American kung fu junkies getting our fix from wherever we can. I know what TCMA looks like, moves like, works like, and the principals it is based on. It's all in SD, even if it's not demonstrated by all SD students. I've used my SD training in open tournaments and one full contact match. I did quite well. These two facts, not "the kool aid" are what drives me to continue practicing SD, defending SD, and taking pride in being a student of SD. End of rant. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress. :D

[Mas Judt]

Bentmonk,

Here are some thoughts:

1.) I for one, am certain that SD is a CMA/JMA hybrid from Indonesia. This is not an uncommon occurence there.

2.) There are things in SD that look like some CMA that has been in Indonesia for a while.

3.) Most of the Indonesian CMA types I have known are full of wild stories. On of my Silat teachers always wanted to meet Sin The', as HE thinks Sin The' really believes he's the 'Shaolin Grandmaster.' Whether true or not, he loves the crazy stories.

4.) CMA 'flavor' - different systems exhibit certain body methods. I've purposely not given examples specifically of what I've meant, as SD does not exhibit them, and why show you something you think you already have. This is particularly apparent in some of the 'systems' SD claims to teach, like Praying Mantis or Xing Yi.

5.) SD certainly has a flavor. It is very similar to another JMA/CMA hybrid I have seen.

6.) The SD I have seen so far (A school in Vegas in the early 90's, I think) practiced a kind of one-step sparring with a 'flavor' that was very JMA. A guy I met at a party in California, late 90's, was in great shape, but again did not represent CMA very well.

7.) 'It's called marketing' - no, it's not. It's called fraud when you promise one thing and deliver another.

I've known a few folks online who left SD. Often after considerable time. Their reasons were almost always the same.

For the most part - every single demonstration of SD has been sad to be 'not the best' or 'not up to standard' or 'just fooling around.' Kind of strange really. It might explain the desire NOT to post stuff on YouTube.

The exception to this is Bruce, who actively seeks comments from other players from other schools.

Surely Sin The' could show his Mantis or Xing-yi and be recognized for doing it well - if he WAS the 'the one Shaolin grandmaster in the world' - as he advertises.

Finally, it could very well be that there is something worthwhile within SD. Maybe you are all correct, and none of the stories are EXACTLY true, none of the demonstrations are 'good', but there are some skilled people nontheless.

[tattooedmonk]

Bentmonk,

Here are some thoughts:

1.) I for one, am certain that SD is a CMA/JMA hybrid from Indonesia. This is not an uncommon occurence there.

2.) There are things in SD that look like some CMA that has been in Indonesia for a while.

3.) Most of the Indonesian CMA types I have known are full of wild stories. On of my Silat teachers always wanted to meet Sin The', as HE thinks Sin The' really believes he's the 'Shaolin Grandmaster.' Whether true or not, he loves the crazy stories.

4.) CMA 'flavor' - different systems exhibit certain body methods. I've purposely not given examples specifically of what I've meant, as SD does not exhibit them, and why show you something you think you already have. This is particularly apparent in some of the 'systems' SD claims to teach, like Praying Mantis or Xing Yi.

5.) SD certainly has a flavor. It is very similar to another JMA/CMA hybrid I have seen.

6.) The SD I have seen so far (A school in Vegas in the early 90's, I think) practiced a kind of one-step sparring with a 'flavor' that was very JMA. A guy I met at a party in California, late 90's, was in great shape, but again did not represent CMA very well.

7.) 'It's called marketing' - no, it's not. It's called fraud when you promise one thing and deliver another.

I've known a few folks online who left SD. Often after considerable time. Their reasons were almost always the same.

For the most part - every single demonstration of SD has been sad to be 'not the best' or 'not up to standard' or 'just fooling around.' Kind of strange really. It might explain the desire NOT to post stuff on YouTube.

The exception to this is Bruce, who actively seeks comments from other players from other schools.

Surely Sin The' could show his Mantis or Xing-yi and be recognized for doing it well - if he WAS the 'the one Shaolin grandmaster in the world' - as he advertises.

Finally, it could very well be that there is something worthwhile within SD. Maybe you are all correct, and none of the stories are EXACTLY true, none of the demonstrations are 'good', but there are some skilled people nontheless. #1 It is obviously a hybrid system. So what?? If you are going to say that it should be advertized as such I would say that it already is, just not using those words?

#2 Keywords "SD looks like other CMA that I have seen in Indonesia. " meaning what?/ Do you think that it being in Indonesia has something to do with the fact that it does not look like CMA that comes directly form Main Land China Hong Kong or Taiwan?? Especially if Chinese were viewed in a negative light at that time??

#4 I would like to know specifically what you mean.

#7 What is he not delivering?? The forms and material is from Chinese origins . whether it passed through other Asian countries first does not matter.

'the one Shaolin grandmaster in the world' - as he advertises
Where does he say this?/ I think that this is being taken too literally . He is the only Grandmaster of Shaolin-do.

People have this funny idea of what CMA should look like based on the way it has been taught and practiced in China for the last 100 years or so, which is demilitarized movements that lack any martial intent. It is no wonder it does not work in a fight.

With whom did you meet in LV and Cali?? and how many actual people do you know who have left SD for the same reasons, whatever that may be?? I mean really. If you know 5 or 10 that is what percentage of those who still practice SD??

[kwaichang]

Sd is not CMA/ JMA mix there is no JMA in it the physical properties of Sd are not JMA. However I will say that a persons Physical capabilities have alot to do with the way a style looks , also their physical personality as well, this may have something to do with how Sd looks. I have seen HARD JMA that looks soft due to the practioners weakness, of spirit or body. To say a martial art isnt what it is due to how it looks is like saying a car cant run because it is painted green.
No one can say that what they do is pure. All things and arts are influenced to some degree by these things. SD is CMA period end of subject. KC
Can we move on now????

[Mas Judt]

People have this funny idea of what CMA should look like based on the way it has been taught and practiced in China for the last 100 years or so, which is demilitarized movements that lack any martial intent. It is no wonder it does not work in a fight.

ROFL! You just made me spit out my coffee.

I'll get back to this later, got a busy day.

Just promise me one thing - keep believing this, it is really, really funny.

One last thing - how do you use words that say ONE thing, then claim it actually says another 'it's just said differently?' Kinda retarded.

I quote Sin The' from the SD Association website;
"Grandmaster Sin realized that the world had plenty of engineers and scientists, but only one Shaolin Grandmaster."

Now which part is he NOT claiming to be the 'one Shaolin Grandmaster?'

You guys kill me.

[Mas Judt]

Sd is not CMA/ JMA mix there is no JMA in it the physical properties of Sd are not JMA. However I will say that a persons Physical capabilities have alot to do with the way a style looks , also their physical personality as well, this may have something to do with how Sd looks. I have seen HARD JMA that looks soft due to the practioners weakness, of spirit or body. To say a martial art isnt what it is due to how it looks is like saying a car cant run because it is painted green.
No one can say that what they do is pure. All things and arts are influenced to some degree by these things. SD is CMA period end of subject. KC

KC,
You make some good points here, I'll grant you that. However, with what i have seen to date, and what I know of the scene in Indonesia, I'll stick to my assesment until I see something that shows otherwise.

[Mas Judt]

Tatoo,
One last thing: based on your answers, you have no idea what I'm talking about. That's okay, your perspective puts you where you are. I'll try to elucidate later this afternoon, after a few pages decrying my sacrilege are posted :D

Enjoy

[Baqualin]

Hey Mas,
Not bad observations for someone outside of SD.....your more open minded than most....probally because of your knowledge of Indo arts. I'm curious (FMI) to know what exposure to our Xingi you've had (besides Bruce) & what your seeing that is off base.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Mas, It seems that a lot of the "JMA" influence comes from the "one-step sparring" that you have seen, am I correct on this? I'm also curious as to your observations that SD looks like a lot of CMA that has been taught in Indonesia for years. What do you mean by this? What are the common denominators in those styles and SD that you can observe? How, in your opinion, has that affected the original CMA origins for the better and/or for the worse?

[Lamassu]

I wouldn't rush into taping & posting to Youtube or the like. You've been doing SD for a while. You're going to still move like it for a while. If you're videoing for your own reference, way cool.

All you'll look like is somebody from SD doing a form from another style that's still not quite right. Get solid practice time in first. Then post it up.

That's actually something my friends and I would do back in San Marcos, we'd videotape each other doing various SD forms and then analyze them to see where in the form we would need improvement. My father in law gave us a digital camera/camcorder as a wedding present and my wife has been holding the camera while I practice my kung fu. I have a couple of good vids, if I do say so myself, but I can't post them because it's black belt material and blah blah blah.

Mas: I understand that there are some unscrupulous people out there that would take the time to "steal" a form posted on youtube, but without instruction from a teacher, there's no real understanding of what the practitioner is doing. I admit, I'm proud of how far I've come along in SD and I want to show off, because it's an acheivement for me, but I can't because of the off chance that some jack@ss is going to copy my movements and try to start a MA school with a half a$$ed form that he doesn't fully grasp.

MK is right, when you learn a form, it's yours to do as you please, forget it or practice it religiously it's yours now, you paid for it, it's yours.

[Mas Judt]

Because I bought a few moments:

BQ - Honestly, most of what I have seen was on video clips - the problems are common to most of the SD teaching of other systems: the limbs are often leading the motion and acting separate and distinct from the body. You see this on Sin The', so it is obviously how you guys are taught. Just imitating the gross motions does not impart the 'flavor' - there is an understanding of how to move the body. I could go on, but next folks will be saying 'we already do that!' Even though there are clips of Sin The' that show otherwise. Go dig up some old articles by Adam Hsu or George Xu on recognizing authentic CMA body method. While they largely discuss Northern Long Fist based arts (many of which are on your list) - they explain it well.

JP -
1.) Yes and no. The guys I met in Vegas - it was a school - I can't remember who they were as to be honest, I thought they were a little sad. They were practicing Chin Na that night - and it was all jujitsu-based stuff - not the CMA variants. The 'techniques' used karate strategies and movement. Now, some CMA HAS 'one-step' style exercises - like the long fist taught to kids or other methods were the use of range, power and response id different from JMA. The stuff I saw was definitely JMA influenced.

2.) There are several CMA derived schools that I have seen that are similar - low level body mechanics combined with intense conditioning. These were tough guys. While my personal experiences with SD to date have been less-than-impressive, I'm willing to bet within the system is some decent stuff/guys - although I'm also convinced by many of the responses I see (including the old saw about the CMA in China being different because it is not combative - a lie so hilarious and ignorant that it beggars the imagination) make me wonder.

In the Indo scene, teachers did not teach openly or much to any student not a disciple, and even then, much was held back. The end result is that many systems ended up getting virtually re-invented or watered down with each generation. See Don Draegers 'Weapons and fighting arts of indonesia' for more on this. THEN you aso find some CMA perfectly preserved, but labled as Silat - Mustika Kwitang for example is Nan Quan - and very well done.

I'd like to get together sometime to see the material you guys play. I don't think SD can really teach ALL the systems it claims, but now there is an 'SD' version. Not 'the original, 'combat ready methods lost to all of China', but a variant/imitation created in Indonesia.

There is a good chance that some interesting stuff is hidden there. I have a story (I won't name names) where a highly skilled CMA coach decided to share a secret training method with me. Turns out, I already knew it, I learned it from my Dutch-Indo teacher. So some of the stories I heard and dismissed, turned out to be somewhat true.

'Somewhat True' is a phrase I learned dealing in this arena.

More to follow...

3.)

[Mas Judt]

Lamassu, I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't do it, I was just pointing out one of the reasons someone might not want to. Some might think some of the SD stuff came about that way as it is often very different from the original.

But you make your own decisions. I personally dislike schools that try to control students in an unreasonable fashion.

[Leto]

What are the Japanese elements in SD? :
1. the uniform and belt ranking system (some other Chinese schools have also adopted this)
2. some terminoligy (kata, ni kyu, ik kyu, ippon, bo)
3. one step sparring (ippon), not from any particular style of karate, but of a "hard" style, and called by a Japanese word
4. sparring techniques: also not from any particular karate style, but many reminiscent of karate-style point sparring used in tournaments popular in the sixties and seventies (ala Ed Parker)
5. nunchaku - though it is possible that the weapon evolved from something used in China, there's no hard evidence...I've never seen it used in another Chinese style, or referred to in history/stories (unlike the sai/cha).
6. Using San He Quan(chien) as a dynamic tension/body conditioning exercise, just like goju ryu and uechi ryu use sanchin. All the Chinese styles that have this type of form (fujian white crane, five ancestors) perform it relaxed, for generating power. I don't know, it may also be used with tension sometimes, but certainly not all the time. That's the only way it's taught in SD (although the motions are very close to the five ancestor version).

Those are all I can think of. The one step, sparring techniques, and nunchaku are all things that are taught at lower belt level. This may be why people who try it out for a couple months, or just watch a class, might think there's no CMA in there.
I'm not going to site "flavor" as evidence of anything, it's too subjective.
After blackbelt, there is no more Japanese stuff. Whether the Chinese forms and weapons are performed "correctly" according to whomever and whatever style is another issue...but no one can deny that the qiang, jian, dao, and guan dao are Chinese weapons, or that Hei Hu Quan, Hua Quan and Zue Quan are of Chinese origin.

Many of the schools have dumped some of these elements. In the west, they don't use any Japanese terms (strangely, the rank certificates still have the Japanese rank names on them). In Altanta, they have changed to Chinese style uniforms as well. The change is only on the surface, though, all the content is still there.
The real question is where did these Japanese elements in the style come from? Were they inherited from GGM Ie's school in Indonesia, or added by GM The once he was in the US? Did they use Japanes terms in Indonesia, or were they used because the American students were familiar with them from previous martial arts experience? etc.
I think it's important to note that there is no evidence of any particular karate style in SD. There are no traditional kata or techniques. It mostly looks like things influenced by the "sportified" generic karate which was found in the US (and maybe other contries as well). The descendant of this type of style is generally called kempo.
The amount of material with any sort of karate/kempo influence is low.

[tattooedmonk]

Sd is not CMA/ JMA mix there is no JMA in it the physical properties of Sd are not JMA. However I will say that a persons Physical capabilities have alot to do with the way a style looks , also their physical personality as well, this may have something to do with how Sd looks. I have seen HARD JMA that looks soft due to the practioners weakness, of spirit or body. To say a martial art isnt what it is due to how it looks is like saying a car cant run because it is painted green.
No one can say that what they do is pure. All things and arts are influenced to some degree by these things. SD is CMA period end of subject. KC
Can we move on now????HEHEHEHEHE:D It isa hybrid , remember the GI and the Terminiology and the one step ippons??:p It seems to be easier to agree then disagree around here.:D I knew this would ruffle some feathers someplace.::cool:

[tattooedmonk]

I'm also curious as to your observations that SD looks like a lot of CMA that has been taught in Indonesia for years. What do you mean by this? What are the common denominators in those styles and SD that you can observe? How, in your opinion, has that affected the original CMA origins for the better and/or for the worse?Exactly!!!!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

ROFL! You just made me spit out my coffee.

I'll get back to this later, got a busy day.

Just promise me one thing - keep believing this, it is really, really funny.

One last thing - how do you use words that say ONE thing, then claim it actually says another 'it's just said differently?' Kinda retarded.

I quote Sin The' from the SD Association website;
"Grandmaster Sin realized that the world had plenty of engineers and scientists, but only one Shaolin Grandmaster."

Now which part is he NOT claiming to be the 'one Shaolin Grandmaster?'

You guys kill me.One Shaolin Grandmaster ....of Shaolin Do.

[tattooedmonk]

What are the Japanese elements in SD? :
1. the uniform and belt ranking system (some other Chinese schools have also adopted this)
2. some terminoligy (kata, ni kyu, ik kyu, ippon, bo)
3. one step sparring (ippon), not from any particular style of karate, but of a "hard" style, and called by a Japanese word
4. sparring techniques: also not from any particular karate style, but many reminiscent of karate-style point sparring used in tournaments popular in the sixties and seventies (ala Ed Parker)
5. nunchaku - though it is possible that the weapon evolved from something used in China, there's no hard evidence...I've never seen it used in another Chinese style, or referred to in history/stories (unlike the sai/cha).
6. Using San He Quan(chien) as a dynamic tension/body conditioning exercise, just like goju ryu and uechi ryu use sanchin. All the Chinese styles that have this type of form (fujian white crane, five ancestors) perform it relaxed, for generating power. I don't know, it may also be used with tension sometimes, but certainly not all the time. That's the only way it's taught in SD (although the motions are very close to the five ancestor version).

Those are all I can think of. The one step, sparring techniques, and nunchaku are all things that are taught at lower belt level. This may be why people who try it out for a couple months, or just watch a class, might think there's no CMA in there.
I'm not going to site "flavor" as evidence of anything, it's too subjective.
After blackbelt, there is no more Japanese stuff. Whether the Chinese forms and weapons are performed "correctly" according to whomever and whatever style is another issue...but no one can deny that the qiang, jian, dao, and guan dao are Chinese weapons, or that Hei Hu Quan, Hua Quan and Zue Quan are of Chinese origin.

Many of the schools have dumped some of these elements. In the west, they don't use any Japanese terms (strangely, the rank certificates still have the Japanese rank names on them). In Altanta, they have changed to Chinese style uniforms as well. The change is only on the surface, though, all the content is still there.
The real question is where did these Japanese elements in the style come from? Were they inherited from GGM Ie's school in Indonesia, or added by GM The once he was in the US? Did they use Japanes terms in Indonesia, or were they used because the American students were familiar with them from previous martial arts experience? etc.
I think it's important to note that there is no evidence of any particular karate style in SD. There are no traditional kata or techniques. It mostly looks like things influenced by the "sportified" generic karate which was found in the US (and maybe other contries as well). The descendant of this type of style is generally called kempo.
The amount of material with any sort of karate/kempo influence is low.Very good young padiwan!!:D

[tattooedmonk]

I have some forms that I would like to post how do I make a link? do I have to upload them to youtube( or something like it ) first? can someone tell me, please??

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have some forms that I would like to post how do I make a link? do I have to upload them to youtube( or something like it ) first? can someone tell me, please??

youtube is probably the best way, then just cut n paste the link.

[tattooedmonk]

youtube is probably the best way, then just cut n paste the link.It will do it automatically??

[sanjuro_ronin]

It will do it automatically??

Put it up on youtube, wait till its working and then copy n paste the link into a thread.
Not sure what you mean by automatically...

[tattooedmonk]

Put it up on youtube, wait till its working and then copy n paste the link into a thread.
Not sure what you mean by automatically...the linking process

[sanjuro_ronin]

the linking process

Once you cut n paste it, yes it will be automatic for anyone clicking on the link.

[Judge Pen]

I personally dislike schools that try to control students in an unreasonable fashion.

I do too.

As I've said before, my teachers' "control" extends to the elements of my martial training i.e., what I train and when I train in it, within the confines of their school. They've never had a problem with me working out with people outside of our system or participating in tournaments outside of SD. They've encouraged the crossing of hands with other styles and systems. I have learned other forms from other systems as well. I ask if that is ok, and it was, because it is the polite and respectful thing to do. I think they would have a problem if I didn't take my training with them seriously or if they thought I was just looking to collect forms, but for me the experinece is comparing the methonds of training and the applications behind the movements as opposed to another form in my collection (I rarely keep the form worked up). I've been extremely happy with the open-mindedness that my teachers have had with me comparing notes with other styles.

[tattooedmonk]

Once you cut n paste it, yes it will be automatic for anyone clicking on the link.Thanks!!!:D

[tattooedmonk]

I do too.

As I've said before, my teachers' "control" extends to the elements of my martial training i.e., what I train and when I train in it, within the confines of their school. They've never had a problem with me working out with people outside of our system or participating in tournaments outside of SD. They've encouraged the crossing of hands with other styles and systems. I have learned other forms from other systems as well. I ask if that is ok, and it was, because it is the polite and respectful thing to do. I think they would have a problem if I didn't take my training with them seriously or if they thought I was just looking to collect forms, but for me the experinece is comparing the methonds of training and the applications behind the movements as opposed to another form in my collection (I rarely keep the form worked up). I've been extremely happy with the open-mindedness that my teachers have had with me comparing notes with other styles.Do you study with Elder Master Mullins??

[Judge Pen]

Do you study with Elder Master Mullins??

Yes and his sons. His oldest son, Master Mike Mullins, is my regular teacher. I go see his youngest son and EM Garry for extra classes, special training, sparring days, seminars etc. as I can.

[Mas Judt]

People have this funny idea of what CMA should look like based on the way it has been taught and practiced in China for the last 100 years or so, which is demilitarized movements that lack any martial intent. It is no wonder it does not work in a fight.

Tatoo - Do You Actually Stand Behind These Words?

How common is this belief among the SD faithful?

Does Sin The' say this?

Who else here actually believes this?

You know, it is the spread of nonsense like this, the telling of stories (such as the Shaolin Stelle being an 'honor' versus something paid FOR, the 'we got to see Brandon Lei's back room because we are respected! - versus anybody can if they spend money with him) that really ostracizes you guys.

[kungfujunky]

i wasn talking about going into his backroom (brendan's ) i was talking about his level of respect for my teachers and their style

[Lamassu]

Tatoo - Do You Actually Stand Behind These Words?

How common is this belief among the SD faithful?

Does Sin The' say this?

Who else here actually believes this?


I'm sure TTM is referring to the development of modern wushu as organized by the chinese government, like what will be in the olympics. At least, that's what I gathered from his words. Personally, I'm pretty sure Jet Li and Jackie Chan can kick MY ass, so I would disagree w/ TTM on this point.

Grandmaster Sin The, never said anything like that (to my knowledge), and think what you like of the man, but he's not dumb enough to make such a blanket statement about CMA, especially when it can be so easily disproven. No, he's smarter than that. As for what he personally thinks of CMA, you'll have to ask him.

[MasterKiller]

Lammassu,
I thought you were going to open your own school?

[tattooedmonk]

Tatoo - Do You Actually Stand Behind These Words?

How common is this belief among the SD faithful?

Does Sin The' say this?

Who else here actually believes this?

You know, it is the spread of nonsense like this, the telling of stories (such as the Shaolin Stelle being an 'honor' versus something paid FOR, the 'we got to see Brandon Lei's back room because we are respected! - versus anybody can if they spend money with him) that really ostracizes you guys.Yes I do, But do not take it out of context . You know that the arts were demilitarized a while back and have been modified inside China to teach the masses. Especially any of the ones that went to Hong Kong , Taiwan.

I do not know any others outside of the people I trained with.

You said that we practice our art like others that you know of in Indonesia that practice CMA, care to expand on that statement??

I believe that the stories have been misconstrude and mistranslated. The Stele was erected in his honor. This does not mean that it was not paid for. Somebody had to do it.:D

You can not blame GMS for passing on the stories of his youth. Whether they are true or not does not matter . They are told to convey ideas. For the most part everything is on the up and up( as far as I know) as far as the material being taught goes.

The arts are Chinese in origin. Many of which were n fact created inside or absorbed into the Shaolin Teaching before during and after it's travels with GGMICM .Even other MA schools have these same issues and yet no one seems to care about them this much.:cool:


I think most people are jealous.:D

[tattooedmonk]

Yes and his sons. His oldest son, Master Mike Mullins, is my regular teacher. I go see his youngest son and EM Garry for extra classes, special training, sparring days, seminars etc. as I can. Cool. I heard he is really good. forget the politics . So you guys wear the "traditional":rolleyes: silk pajamas??:D:p

I like the way the EMM's school is set up. The black and red mats are cool. A lot of space.

[Lamassu]

Lammassu,
I thought you were going to open your own school?

That was the plan originally, then reality b!tch slapped me. :o There's no way in hell I can raise the neccessary capital to get a business of the ground, and with my less than stellar credit rating, banks will only laugh at me. Also, I noticed the high mortality rate for martial art schools in Chicago, and I sure as hell can't afford this financial lead weight tied around my neck. So if I can't start an SD kwoon up here, then I'll join another CMA kwoon. I'm jonsen for getting into another CMA style anyway! :p

[tattooedmonk]

That was the plan originally, then reality b!tch slapped me. :o There's no way in hell I can raise the neccessary capital to get a business of the ground, and with my less than stellar credit rating, banks will only laugh at me. Also, I noticed the high mortality rate for martial art schools in Chicago, and I sure as hell can't afford this financial lead weight tied around my neck. So if I can't start an SD kwoon up here, then I'll join another CMA kwoon. I'm jonsen for getting into another CMA style anyway! :pWhy not start a park program??

[Judge Pen]

Cool. I heard he is really good. forget the politics . So you guys wear the "traditional":rolleyes: silk pajamas??:D:p

I like the way the EMM's school is set up. The black and red mats are cool. A lot of space.

I try to forget about the politics as much as I can.

Our uniforms and cotton/poly blend.

[Lamassu]

Why not start a park program??

That wouldn't work either, because it gets cold here in Chicago, very cold! Not to mention the cirriculum would suffer if held outside at any of the parks here. If we were caught carrying weapons in a park, no matter how exotic they may be, well, it would be a very short program indeed. A park program would be fine during the summer months so long as we only stuck with open hand forms, but there would still be too much cut out of the cirriculum to warrant somebody paying for classes. Now, a Tai Chi park program isn't a bad idea, not a bad idea at all...

[Baqualin]

Tatoo - Do You Actually Stand Behind These Words?

How common is this belief among the SD faithful?

Does Sin The' say this?

Who else here actually believes this?

You know, it is the spread of nonsense like this, the telling of stories (such as the Shaolin Stelle being an 'honor' versus something paid FOR, the 'we got to see Brandon Lei's back room because we are respected! - versus anybody can if they spend money with him) that really ostracizes you guys.

Mas...the only thing GM. Sin has said to us about CMA in China is that the Chinese practioners will look a lot better doing forms, but they cannot fight and Americans were much better fighters....he told me this in 74.....I've heard it many times since.
Before I get attacked.....there's always exceptions to the rule:D
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

That wouldn't work either, because it gets cold here in Chicago, very cold! Not to mention the cirriculum would suffer if held outside at any of the parks here. If we were caught carrying weapons in a park, no matter how exotic they may be, well, it would be a very short program indeed. A park program would be fine during the summer months so long as we only stuck with open hand forms, but there would still be too much cut out of the cirriculum to warrant somebody paying for classes. Now, a Tai Chi park program isn't a bad idea, not a bad idea at all... You should checkout the local laws/restrictions in regards to the weapons . If you use caution and wood weapons I am almost sure it would not be a problem. Check into the recreation centers for indoor use of the facilities. Set up the program that way and build your student base. Also try renting out space from another school or from a ballet/ dance studio. Just some ideas . Keep the faith , brother!! Even if you had to omit the weapons for awhile it would not be too bad. You get Bo spins at yellowbelt, so how long would be before you taught that? Plus the bo form , nunchucku spins , short stick . Not much up to brown belt considering. It would take awhile to get students up that level anyway . this would give you time to workout the kinks

[tattooedmonk]

Mas...the only thing GM. Sin has said to us about CMA in China is that the Chinese practioners will look a lot better doing forms, but they cannot fight and Americans were much better fighters....he told me this in 74.....I've heard it many times since.
Before I get attacked.....there's always exceptions to the rule:D
BQ This is what he said to me/ us as well. But that is just performance anyway.This is also because we do it for the intended effect, not to look pretty!

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Mas Judt;826476]Because I bought a few moments:

BQ - Honestly, most of what I have seen was on video clips - the problems are common to most of the SD teaching of other systems: the limbs are often leading the motion and acting separate and distinct from the body. You see this on Sin The', so it is obviously how you guys are taught. Just imitating the gross motions does not impart the 'flavor' - there is an understanding of how to move the body. I could go on, but next folks will be saying 'we already do that!' Even though there are clips of Sin The' that show otherwise. Go dig up some old articles by Adam Hsu or George Xu on recognizing authentic CMA body method. While they largely discuss Northern Long Fist based arts (many of which are on your list) - they explain it well.

It's really not the way I was taught...GMS was my Teacher (some classes under his brother) until he moved to Ca. then EML became my teacher and they both stress the above in their teachings....none of the three move as you stated above in my opinion (for what that's worth) from my experiences in learning from them. What clips are you refering to regarding GMS?
I'm very familiar with Adam Hsu & George regarding Tai Chi....I teach George's Chen exercises in my class as a warm up and so they can understand (feel) the proper body motions and not just waving arms & hands....which as you said is very common in SD practioners.....I personally feel that we've grown to big and spread out...with students opening schools before their ready.
BQ

[Mas Judt]

Mas...the only thing GM. Sin has said to us about CMA in China is that the Chinese practioners will look a lot better doing forms, but they cannot fight and Americans were much better fighters....he told me this in 74.....I've heard it many times since.

Alas this is a common misconception among a lot of overseas Chinese - a lie not unique to SD. It's just the unique twist on it - that SD is 'better' because of it.

It is also really f@cking ignorant.

If the SD folks got out more, and really thought about this... it makes no sense whatsoever.

Tatoo: The Stele was paid for by the Soards - an honor from the Soards - but it was billed on all the SD websites as an honor *from* the Shaolin temple.

Veracity, as always seems an issue with SD.

[Mas Judt]

Yes I do, But do not take it out of context . You know that the arts were demilitarized a while back and have been modified inside China to teach the masses. Especially any of the ones that went to Hong Kong , Taiwan.

And you actually believe this garbage? The evidence to the contrary is all around you. THe entire premise is so ignorant, it beggars the imagination. for example - not all CMA were 'military' arts. Many were family arts, or sect arts. Some were village protection, others were esoteric practices. The breadth and variety and purposes of what fals under the rubric of CMA is astounding.

The fact that there are school programs and modern wushu programs does not mean the traditional material disappeared.

what kills me is how people buy this cr@p, then willingly pass it on as 'truth.'

ugh.

[Lamassu]

Alas this is a common misconception among a lot of overseas Chinese - a lie not unique to SD. It's just the unique twist on it - that SD is 'better' because of it.

It is also really f@cking ignorant.

If the SD folks got out more, and really thought about this... it makes no sense whatsoever.


That's the problem with blanket statements, they smack of prejudice and are easy to disprove. Maybe, Grandmaster Sin The said that Americans are better fighters than Chinese only to appeal to our egos. :p

[tattooedmonk]

And you actually believe this garbage? The evidence to the contrary is all around you. THe entire premise is so ignorant, it beggars the imagination. for example - not all CMA were 'military' arts. Many were family arts, or sect arts. Some were village protection, others were esoteric practices. The breadth and variety and purposes of what fals under the rubric of CMA is astounding.

The fact that there are school programs and modern wushu programs does not mean the traditional material disappeared.

what kills me is how people buy this cr@p, then willingly pass it on as 'truth.'

ugh. where is this evidence?? ?? I have been to many CMA schools and wiped the floor with everyone . There were only maybe 2 that put up any fight .

What does Martial art mean?? Military or Warrior Arts. Whether it be villiage , familly , or military it still is warrior/ martial arts, used in what?? WAR .I did not mean the government mass organized military.

Because of various laws and sanctions they were not allowed to teach or practice them, at various times, for martial purposes. This is why most of what was or is taught has no martial arts in them . Performance art.

Yes there are many that still teach and practice with martial intent but they are the minority. Most schools teach for money, not to teach people to defend themselves .

This is why MMA is so big now.

[tattooedmonk]

Tatoo: The Stele was paid for by the Soards - an honor from the Soards - but it was billed on all the SD websites as an honor *from* the Shaolin temple.

Veracity, as always seems an issue with SD.Tattoo is with 3 T's:D
I know how it is presented and been distorted but it does not mean that people do not know what it actually means. I think people have used it as a marketing ploy and have been dishonested about it. I for one was disappointed to find out the truth .I believe that this is something that needs to be corrected. Agree with you.

[tattooedmonk]

You should checkout the local laws/restrictions in regards to the weapons . If you use caution and wood weapons I am almost sure it would not be a problem. Check into the recreation centers for indoor use of the facilities. Set up the program that way and build your student base. Also try renting out space from another school or from a ballet/ dance studio. Just some ideas . Keep the faith , brother!! Even if you had to omit the weapons for awhile it would not be too bad. You get Bo spins at yellowbelt, so how long would be before you taught that? Plus the bo form , nunchucku spins , short stick . Not much up to brown belt considering. It would take awhile to get students up that level anyway . this would give you time to workout the kinks Just reposting this just incase you missed it.

[Lamassu]

Just reposting this just incase you missed it.

I saw it, and I'm taking it into consideration. I'll have to look up the laws, but my immediete future, I can't afford renting out a space from either a gym, another school, or from a landlord. The YMCA won't just let me occupy a room and start teaching without a hefty deposit (I know I checked). What I'll most likely do is start teaching Tai Chi to some friends of mine that have expressed interest at one of the parks here. With Tai Chi you don't need any weapons (at first), or impact bags, or mats or anything.

[tattooedmonk]

I saw it, and I'm taking it into consideration. I'll have to look up the laws, but my immediete future, I can't afford renting out a space from either a gym, another school, or from a landlord. The YMCA won't just let me occupy a room and start teaching without a hefty deposit (I know I checked). What I'll most likely do is start teaching Tai Chi to some friends of mine that have expressed interest at one of the parks here. With Tai Chi you don't need any weapons (at first), or impact bags, or mats or anything. Cool. Good luck.

[kwaichang]

Dont call them weapons call them training tools or by the Chinese name then you can carry what you want "screw the Cops". KC

[Judge Pen]

Dont call them weapons call them training tools or by the Chinese name then you can carry what you want "screw the Cops". KC

You're lawyer would tell you that this is incorrect. But, at least in Tennessee, it is the intent behind having the weapon (non-firearm) that makes it legal or illegal. If your training or collecting, and do not have the mental intent to "go armed" then swords and clubs are legal to posses in public places.

[Mas Judt]

"screw the Cops". KC

eeeewwwww.


where is this evidence?? ?? I have been to many CMA schools and wiped the floor with everyone . There were only maybe 2 that put up any fight .

What does Martial art mean?? Military or Warrior Arts. Whether it be villiage , familly , or military it still is warrior/ martial arts, used in what?? WAR .I did not mean the government mass organized military.

Because of various laws and sanctions they were not allowed to teach or practice them, at various times, for martial purposes. This is why most of what was or is taught has no martial arts in them . Performance art.

Yes there are many that still teach and practice with martial intent but they are the minority. Most schools teach for money, not to teach people to defend themselves .

This is why MMA is so big now.

1.) Come to Chicago, I'll take you around. See how it works for you.

2.) You are splitting hairs. And demonstrating a lack of understanding of Chinese culture. The more sophisticated arts evolved out of a blending of esoteric skills with martial skills. For usage of course.

3.) I agree with you. Most schools teach only for money. Most 'CMA' schools don't really teach CMA or teach a watered down aspect. The average skill level in the US is very low. CMA in the US has also been stagnate in many ways. But there are considerable exceptions.

4.) No. legal strictures against practice, say during the cultural revolution, simply drove people underground. It did not wipe it out. The Modern wushu effort also failed to supress TCMA, so now the government has accepted seperate events for TCMA. China is bursting with skilled players. Players who will gladly show their skills.

5.) MMA is big because it is a sporting event. It also gives people ready, quantifiable results, while most so-called CMA schools don't. We both agree there is a LOT of cr@p out there, even if our definitions vary :) . I've got more on this, but got to run.

[Mas Judt]

Lamassu -
Contact me, there are all kinds of options if you really want to start a class. It is work, but you'd be amazed how you can find ways to get started with little or no money. Since I don't teach for money, this has been how my clubs have existed.

On the other hand, Chicago has a lot to offer, with some pretty good clubs. So if you want to just train and hang, there are good options.

[tattooedmonk]

Hey Disturbed is from there right?? They have a new album coming out next year. Time to get "GET DOWN WITH THE SICKNESS "yet once again. Do you like them?? REALLY GOOD MUSIC TO TRAIN HARD TO.

[tattooedmonk]

I would like to say no matter what is said in this thread and/or across this whole board , I would like to say ,"good or bad , right or wrong whether we agree or disagree I still hope that you all have A HAPPY , JOYFUL and SAFE Holiday Season" . "May you share love and affection with the people that you care about and may the next year be the best one yet.



Sincerly TTM







P.S. SD IS REAL SHAOLIN AND IT IS CMA!!:eek:;):p:D:cool:

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Mas Judt;826676]Alas this is a common misconception among a lot of overseas Chinese - a lie not unique to SD. It's just the unique twist on it - that SD is 'better' because of it.

It is also really f@cking ignorant.

If the SD folks got out more, and really thought about this... it makes no sense whatsoever.

I think your a little off base here....this comment wasn't made to me in the context of SD being better, he was speaking to me in general terms of his observations...not a lie an opinion....nothing to do with SD:confused: Lots of us do get out and from what I've seen in the last 36 years is not a whole lot of Chinese out here kicking anybody's A$$....like I said there are EXCEPTIONS to the rule...but very few.

[Mas Judt]

I would like to say no matter what is said in this thread and/or across this whole board , I would like to say ,"good or bad , right or wrong whether we agree or disagree I still hope that you all have A HAPPY , JOYFUL and SAFE Holiday Season" . "May you share love and affection with the people that you care about and may the next year be the best one yet.

Amen crazy man. Don't know disturbed, I'll check them out. But if you do make up here and I'm in town, I'll give you the tour - in a friendly, pro-martial arts way - not the crazy mofo internet way. I really am civilized. Just always played hard...

Merry Christmas Tatoo - yeah, I do that on purpose :)

[DPL]

I try to forget about the politics as much as I can.

Our uniforms and cotton/poly blend.

You mix polyester with cotton? Clearly you are not practicing a traditional martial art.

[naja]

Cool. I heard he is really good. forget the politics . So you guys wear the "traditional":rolleyes: silk pajamas??:D:p

I like the way the EMM's school is set up. The black and red mats are cool. A lot of space.

I train directly under EMM, and though I'm only a yellow sash I can tell you that he is a great teacher. I also work at the local police station and several of these guys have or currently take MA from somewhere in the area and I have yet to hear a bad remark about EMM. Everyone has good things to say about him, which makes me feel better about training under him even though I have my self-doubts about my abilities. From what I've heard I think I've got the best teacher in my area.

Naja

[Mas Judt]

I think your a little off base here....this comment wasn't made to me in the context of SD being better, he was speaking to me in general terms of his observations...not a lie an opinion....nothing to do with SD Lots of us do get out and from what I've seen in the last 36 years is not a whole lot of Chinese out here kicking anybody's A$$....like I said there are EXCEPTIONS to the rule...but very few.

I guess if you were looking at point tournaments and the West, where CMA was effectively underground, sure I can see someone thinking that. But that is someone divorced from the rest of the world and the CMA community. The American point karate scene didn't exactly attract the CMA fighters.

[Woof]

Tattoo is with 3 T's:D
I know how it is presented and been distorted but it does not mean that people do not know what it actually means. I think people have used it as a marketing ploy and have been dishonested about it. I for one was disappointed to find out the truth .I believe that this is something that needs to be corrected. Agree with you.

How hypocritical. This coming from the man who lied about having served our country in the military?

[Baqualin]

How hypocritical. This coming from the man who lied about having served our country in the military?

Why the personal attacks:confused:

[Baqualin]

I guess if you were looking at point tournaments and the West, where CMA was effectively underground, sure I can see someone thinking that. But that is someone divorced from the rest of the world and the CMA community. The American point karate scene didn't exactly attract the CMA fighters.

Neither has the cage???

[tattooedmonk]

How hypocritical. This coming from the man who lied about having served our country in the military?Oh really?? I lied ?? Interesting. And how is that you come about this info??I sent you a PM before basically calling you out. If you know me and you have some problem with me come with it and bring all of what you got. Now you can send me a PM and we can resolve this but if you want to keep fronting yourself off openly in this board then you can do it at your own expense and not at mine or any others.




@$$HOLE.

[Mas Judt]

Neither has the cage???

And SD is represented in mma? This will be a longer post when i'm feeling better - got laid low by a brutal bug the last few days.

Frankly, if we had had MMA in the late 80's when I actively competed, I would have been there. But pit fighting is a different strategy than military. When Cheng Dong Sheng was asked why he did not teach groundwork, he threw the fellow down, then produced a metal spike from his boot.

Now, i happen to think combat sports are good for training (hey, I started in judo and did Shuai Chiao, so to me TCMA HAS live training) - but you can lose a lot when you start playing to the rules.

There is also the recruitment issue comes up. Most athletes are competitive and attracted to sport. I think Coach Ross on NY has done a great job of transforming his Lama fist into an art that does it all.

We'll start seeing CMA schools from the PRC in MMA soon - as they adopt the ground game needed for the cage. There is already a growing Shaui Chiao/BJJ club and more.

As far as playing with MMA guys, I've gotten nothing but respect from them. Water dragon's other teacher is a well known champion in MMA who completely dug what I was giving him as tools. I used to fight regularly with a bunch when I lived out West. You'd love this: My first meeting i came in a silk kung fu outfit with patches - just to throw them off their game.

Then there is the real world. Usage in reality is CMA's bread and butter when it is taught well. More on this later... and I'll cover the biggest flaw of the CMA mindset - which I'll bet SD shares...

[BlueTravesty]

As much as I don't enjoy watching Wushu, I'd have to admit that the average Chinese Wushu player would probably kick my arse just with their conditioning alone. (I'm also extremely rusty.) All the nasty kicks and punches in the world won't save you if you're gassed before your opponent even breaks a sweat.

If people training Traditional Chinese Arts trained as hard as Wushu Players or MMAists, the effectiveness of their arts would double. I'd gladly include myself in that statement, but unfortunately, I don't train MA anymore... I just work out and have little to show for it :(

[Baqualin]

And SD is represented in mma?
YUP in a very small scale.....some of the guys in Ky and surrounding states like to mix it up....like you said, in any system you can find althletes who get it....if you know what I mean
I think Coach Ross on NY has done a great job of transforming his Lama fist into an art that does it all.
I totally agree! I have nothing but respect for what he's done and his teacher is one of the exceptions I was refering to

We'll start seeing CMA schools from the PRC in MMA soon - as they adopt the ground game needed for the cage. There is already a growing Shaui Chiao/BJJ club and more.
I would love to see it!

As far as playing with MMA guys, I've gotten nothing but respect from them. Water dragon's other teacher is a well known champion in MMA who completely dug what I was giving him as tools. I used to fight regularly with a bunch when I lived out West. You'd love this: My first meeting i came in a silk kung fu outfit with patches - just to throw them off their game.
Now that I would really have loved to seen ;)

Then there is the real world. Usage in reality is CMA's bread and butter when it is taught well. More on this later... and I'll cover the biggest flaw of the CMA mindset - which I'll bet SD shares...
I'm sure we do!

fjs;adkj;nkvaevemklr

[Woof]

Why the personal attacks:confused:

Any man that would lie about having served his country has no dignity.

[kwaichang]

Since Vietnam the military has not really served the country but the desires of the corporate few and politicians, I respect those who fought despite the stupidity of the cause. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

And SD is represented in mma? This will be a longer post when i'm feeling better - got laid low by a brutal bug the last few days.

Oh Lordy, another MMA rant? WTF? We're all cushy Americans (even us poor ones) who do CMA for fun. ****.....we're on the internet *****ing about this ****. What more proof do you need? LOL.....we're a bunch of Athenians fronting like we're Spartans.......


Frankly, if we had had MMA in the late 80's when I actively competed, I would have been there.

Wannabe? Are you admitting you're a wannabe? LOL.....just kidding.:) Or am I?


But pit fighting is a different strategy than military. When Cheng Dong Sheng was asked why he did not teach groundwork, he threw the fellow down, then produced a metal spike from his boot.

His proof: Pit Fighter vs. Metal Gear Solid

Pit fighter might have been more realstic, but it sucked @ass. You could only be a wrestler, a skinny asian dude, or a brawler. Metal Gear was unreal, but it was the coolest! UNREAL, DUDE!!!!


Now, i happen to think combat sports are good for training (hey, I started in judo and did Shuai Chiao, so to me TCMA HAS live training) - but you can lose a lot when you start playing to the rules.

Everyone plays by the rules; those who don't are called criminals. Yeah, I go by rules. I'm not a professional fighter, SD does not teach professional fighters, and if by chance it does, it's not teaching them to be professional fighters. There's nothing wrong with MMA or professional fighters; I love the UFC and MMA. But I have no desire to fight in a ring, and I don't really think any SD guys do either, or else they'd be in the ring. And if they were, they'd get a professional coach. Doing jumping jacks, push ups, weight-vest, I Chin Ching---they're not going to turn anyone into Chuck Liddell. You have to have a coach......so WTF are you talking about?:confused:

I've been to other CMA schools. I visited an MMA school. Nobody (outside SanShou circuits)in CMA is doing what they do in MMA--professional training that is.


We'll start seeing CMA schools from the PRC in MMA soon - as they adopt the ground game needed for the cage. There is already a growing Shaui Chiao/BJJ club and more.

Then they're not CMA schools. They're MMA schools. And I don't foresee many skinny little asian mantids in MMA, dude. They'll get all roided up, don the biker shorts, and voila! --CMMA!


As far as playing with MMA guys, I've gotten nothing but respect from them.

They were being polite. You know, like all those CMA masters that were polite to GM The', but obviously didn't mean it.;)


Water dragon's other teacher is a well known champion in MMA who completely dug what I was giving him as tools.

You're shoveling a bunch of dung with puns like that.:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Any man that would lie about having served his country has no dignity.

Um, George W. Bush told the truth about serving his country, but he has no dignity.

We're going to have to draft a new premise for this valuation of dignity, aren't we?;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

My God....My God.....sometimes I forget how silly this whole martial arts world is.


By the way, I have a 13 inch Johnson.

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL....it's common belief on this website amongst most styles, for hte most part.....LOL.

Here's what's common belief among the SD faithful:

I have to perform my material correctly to pass a belt ranking test.
I have to pay my dues every month in order to keep getting lessons.
I have to buy my own weapons and bring them to class, or else I'll do a ****load of exercises because I'm being punished (for being lazy and not bringing them, not if I can't afford them, or something).
I have to be on time.
I have to honor my teachers by being polite and listening to what they have to say.
I have to ask questions about what I don't understand, and then I'll get answers.
I have to wear a mouthguard when I spar, no matter what. If a student is below black belt, he has to wear his gloves and shinpads. Otherwise, it's optional.
If I don't have anything nice to say about my fellow students, I am to shut the **** up and suck it up and be a man.
If can wear shoes if I want, but they have to be kung-fu shoes.
If I break a mirror or put my foot through some drywall, I have to fix it (although one of my friends fixed it for me out of kindness.)


Quit looking for conspiracy theories. There aren't any. If there are, they're in your head. Whatever an individual believes, that's his belief. I didn't hear any of the bull**** you guys hash up here on this board until I visited this board. All I care is do I get to punch some stuff and pretend like I'm a crane? Yup. So I'll keep payin' my monthly dues.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hi guys,

Been awhile. But i'm back. I'm happy to anounce that my master wanted some videos on youtube, more are still to come. But this one shows how kung fu looks like no karate movements or fancy high kicks.(sorry that the video is on his side, still figuring that part out)
This is my teacher and he was taught at bandung.
Please tell me what you think!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABj787p18Qo&feature=related


O and another one with a student showing a piece of our long form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfohsDvs0GI&feature=related



Since this seemed to get completely ignored, I'm reposting it. I'll have to watch it once I get home from work.

[Mas Judt]

Shaolin Wookie,
Your response was so retarded and out of context, I won't even bother responding.

Now go take your lithium and prozac. Oh, the Kool-aid too.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Shaolin Wookie,
Your response was so retarded and out of context, I won't even bother responding.

Now go take your lithium and prozac. Oh, the Kool-aid too.

Beat you to it. I had Chick Fil-A and a Full Throttle. That'll keep me going for awhile.

[BM2]

Shaolin Wookie,
Your response was so retarded and out of context, I won't even bother responding.

Now go take your lithium and prozac. Oh, the Kool-aid too.

Actually that was kinda funny.

[Judge Pen]

But pit fighting is a different strategy than military. When Cheng Dong Sheng was asked why he did not teach groundwork, he threw the fellow down, then produced a metal spike from his boot.

Now, i happen to think combat sports are good for training (hey, I started in judo and did Shuai Chiao, so to me TCMA HAS live training) - but you can lose a lot when you start playing to the rules.


Isn't this just a watered down way of saying that some techniques are too deadly for the ring? (like producing a spike from your boot) :p

[DPL]

Shaolin Wookie,
Your response was so retarded and out of context, I won't even bother responding.

Now go take your lithium and prozac. Oh, the Kool-aid too.

You know, it's most entertaining to read this board to watch the automatic defensive reactions of the SD-haters when they're called on their faulty logic regarding their own arts and stories.

Mas Judt, for instance, will expound about everything under the sun, especially if he feels like the Internet heathens are kneeling at the feet of his awesome knowledge.

But as soon as someone calls him on something he's written, particularly if they do it with humor, he sucks his head like a scared baby turtle back up into his 'you guys are stupid' shell. What a convincing (and effective!) debate method.

Wookie's response was both in context and well-written. You can't handle the spoof!

[kwaichang]

Originally Posted by Mas Judt
Frankly, if we had had MMA in the late 80's when I actively competed, I would have been there.

Didnt a fellow "Icant remember his name " have the guts to do the MMA challenge at the age of 52, What was his name he was a black guy who taught since the
70's. Any way why let age stop you ??? KC Or is it age that stops you??????

[Shaolin Wookie]

You know, it's most entertaining to read this board to watch the automatic defensive reactions of the SD-haters when they're called on their faulty logic regarding their own arts and stories.

Mas Judt, for instance, will expound about everything under the sun, especially if he feels like the Internet heathens are kneeling at the feet of his awesome knowledge.

But as soon as someone calls him on something he's written, particularly if they do it with humor, he sucks his head like a scared baby turtle back up into his 'you guys are stupid' shell. What a convincing (and effective!) debate method.

Wookie's response was both in context and well-written. You can't handle the spoof!

It's kind of along these lines:

There are a lot of guys on this internet forum who love to look down their noses at other martial artists as the say-all of MA knowledge. And they would like us, standing below them, to thank them for the panoramic view of their nasal cavities.

The funny thing is, whenever anyone looks down their nose, the only thing they can ever see is its tip. Which ought to tell them--but rarely does--how short they ought to stand in their own estimation while deriding those they see as below them.

I'm just here to level the playing field....LOL....and to bring it back to the level where it belongs--the playground.

Achoo! God, I hope I wasn't just looking down on somebody, or he's in for a surprise.

[Baqualin]

It's kind of along these lines:

There are a lot of guys on this internet forum who love to look down their noses at other martial artists as the say-all of MA knowledge. And they would like us, standing below them, to thank them for the panoramic view of their nasal cavities.

The funny thing is, whenever anyone looks down their nose, the only thing they can ever see is its tip. Which ought to tell them--but rarely does--how short they ought to stand in their own estimation while deriding those they see as below them.

I'm just here to level the playing field....LOL....and to bring it back to the level where it belongs--the playground.

Achoo! God, I hope I wasn't just looking down on somebody, or he's in for a surprise.

Wookie, Thanks for your sense of humor...I'm still laughing:D

[oasis]

i think you're referring to Ron "The Black Dragon" Van Clief

[BM2]

It wasn't worth watching either. Royce was tapping everyone until they learned to defend themselves on the ground.

[kwaichang]

Hey at least he was man enough to try age nor fear stood in his way KC

[Mas Judt]

Well, I'm busy for a day, and the last refuge of the incompetent comes a walking.

Honestly, KC, Wookie, some initial guy, I will not be drawn into juvenile discussion. It's pointless. And frankly, it is meaningless coming from this crowd - for reasons cited over and over again on this thread.

While dodging actually confronting the history of lies, and the fact that the reason your art is 'different' has nothing to do with it 'being for combat' - you try to draw me into a PeeWee Hermann-esque game of 'I know you are, but what am I?'

So explain to me, if your art is the pure, original, combat form, do you practice sam chien the same way as Karate guys - which is a gross misinterpretation of the original? Why does your North Mantis not move like North Mantis? and on and on... For that matter, why do you willingly be part of an organization that aggressively chooses to lie. i.e. 'only Shaolin grandmaster / Lieing about what the Stelle at Shaolin was for / Lieing about how 'real martial arts' are lost in China... A few of these can be a misunderstanding. After that you have to ask yourself what kind of person you are.

[Mas Judt]

Isn't this just a watered down way of saying that some techniques are too deadly for the ring? (like producing a spike from your boot)

JP - I am fairly certain that Matt Hughes would hand me my head in the ring. But the street really is a different matter. Most MMA guys know little to nothing about self-defense.

But the Sport/Self-Defense/Combat debate is an old one. The same debates people have today about martial arts were already made in the 17nth century as fencing transformed from self-defense to sport. There's a great book called 'the secrets of the sword.' Pick it up and enjoy it - there really are no new arguments under the sun.

[BM2]

Dude, did I misconstrue your statement? Are you saying you could go one on one with Matt Hughes on the street?:confused:

[tattooedmonk]

Well, I'm busy for a day, and the last refuge of the incompetent comes a walking.

Honestly, KC, Wookie, some initial guy, I will not be drawn into juvenile discussion. It's pointless. And frankly, it is meaningless coming from this crowd - for reasons cited over and over again on this thread.

While dodging actually confronting the history of lies, and the fact that the reason your art is 'different' has nothing to do with it 'being for combat' - you try to draw me into a PeeWee Hermann-esque game of 'I know you are, but what am I?'

So explain to me, if your art is the pure, original, combat form, do you practice sam chien the same way as Karate guys - which is a gross misinterpretation of the original? Why does your North Mantis not move like North Mantis? and on and on... For that matter, why do you willingly be part of an organization that aggressively chooses to lie. i.e. 'only Shaolin grandmaster / Lieing about what the Stelle at Shaolin was for / Lieing about how 'real martial arts' are lost in China... A few of these can be a misunderstanding. After that you have to ask yourself what kind of person you are.Just out of curiosity, what makes you think that the way you all do CMA is the right way and the way that CSC and SD do it are wrong ??

Did you ever think that maybe you are wrong and that it might be some place in the middle??

Or that SD does it the right way , for combat usage? Just a question.

[Shaolin Wookie]

So explain to me, if your art is the pure, original, combat form, do you practice sam chien the same way as Karate guys - which is a gross misinterpretation of the original?

No. We don't do it like karate guys. It looks different. There's a I-Chin-Ching breathing component to it. Now I'm not positive, and you'll have to take my word for it, but I'm pretty sure we do the form exactly like we're supposed to do it in our art....LOL.... What karate guys do is what they do. What we do is what we do. Man, you're a blockhead. :DHere's the gist of our San He Chien:

Take a stance that's a cross between a bow stance and a horse stance, set your weight low in a stable, very low stance with feet parallel, but staggered. Now, focus on your breathing, tensing every muscle in your body as you go through 3 patterns of hand movements 3 times, resetting your stance in between each one. Keep your back straight, don't force any motions in your body. Now prepare to be pushed, kicked, swept, and punched, and don't react, halt in breathing, or flinch. Also, make it last 3-5 minutes. It's a killer workout, great for breathing, great for stance, great for killing flinch complexes and keeping your balance.

Works for me. So it's genuine for me.


Why does your North Mantis not move like North Mantis? and on and on...

Who gives a ****? It's mantis. You do it or you don't do it. You "You've got to do it just like this in this pattern, with this kind of motion" guys kill me. ****, if you punch or kick, poke around, and say you use a jade ring or a hook stance, it's mantis to me. Who gives a **** if it's northern or southern? Can I punch fast and on target? Yup. But oh, that's right, if I punch you in the SD way it doesn't hurt as much as if I hit someone in a northerly direction?:rolleyes:


For that matter, why do you willingly be part of an organization that aggressively chooses to lie. i.e.

Because they're the only MA organization that teaches drunken boxing, which isn't that wushu BS--more like a dance routine. They didn't lie. They said they'd teach me drunken boxing, and if I work hard enough, they will. I already have a little bit of it.


'only Shaolin grandmaster /

Watch out, if you keep repeating that you'll believe it sooner or later. Here, try this. It'll cool your throat. What is it? It's Kool Aid, my man. I've seen you rehash this one so many times I figure you've been drinking your own urine for too long and are starting to get brain damage.


Lieing about what the Stelle at Shaolin was for

It was there to honor GM The', purchased by students. An Abbot came down to see it. He didn't donate it. But hell, there's a picture of the ol' geeza next to the stele, and it's sitting next to his rec room. If the old geeza didn't have a problem with it, what's your beef? I'm beginning to think you think you're the Shaolin Grandmaster.


/ Lieing about how 'real martial arts' are lost in China...

You haven't seen wushu, have you? Oh, it's lost. I tried it once, and one of my friends has done it 6 years. He can't hang with me for 15 seconds, and he has 3X my experience....LOL. Sometimes I think it's SD's greatest attribute that it isn't typical CMA. At least hte guys I practice with can fight/box...whatever.


A few of these can be a misunderstanding. After that you have to ask yourself what kind of person you are.

I mean, seriously. If I can throw a roundhouse, a straight punch, a jab, a snap kick, a heel kick.....jesus, if I can land those in good combinations, who cares if it's Northern Mantis? Either you can hit someone or you can't. So if all you have to say is: When you pretend like you're a Northern Mantis you don't look buggy enough---sheeyat, man. Go get mantiddy witcha self.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hi guys,

Been awhile. But i'm back. I'm happy to anounce that my master wanted some videos on youtube, more are still to come. But this one shows how kung fu looks like no karate movements or fancy high kicks.(sorry that the video is on his side, still figuring that part out)
This is my teacher and he was taught at bandung.
Please tell me what you think!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABj787p18Qo&feature=related


O and another one with a student showing a piece of our long form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfohsDvs0GI&feature=related



Since this seemed to get completely ignored again, I'm reposting it, again. Besides the fact we throw side thrusts, punch, and kick, and that circling of the arm things, it looks a little different (which is to say, it looks the pretty much the same...like all CMA). Then again, I don't have any Monkey Style yet. They're teaching it in '08.....sweet.

[Citong Shifu]

No. We don't do it like karate guys. It looks different. There's a I-Chin-Ching breathing component to it. Now I'm not positive, and you'll have to take my word for it, but I'm pretty sure we do the form exactly like we're supposed to do it in our art....LOL.... What karate guys do is what they do. What we do is what we do. Man, you're a blockhead. :DHere's the gist of our San He Chien:

Take a stance that's a cross between a bow stance and a horse stance, set your weight low in a stable, very low stance with feet parallel, but staggered. Now, focus on your breathing, tensing every muscle in your body as you go through 3 patterns of hand movements 3 times, resetting your stance in between each one. Keep your back straight, don't force any motions in your body. Now prepare to be pushed, kicked, swept, and punched, and don't react, halt in breathing, or flinch. Also, make it last 3-5 minutes. It's a killer workout, great for breathing, great for stance, great for killing flinch complexes and keeping your balance.

Works for me. So it's genuine for me.



Who gives a ****? It's mantis. You do it or you don't do it. You "You've got to do it just like this in this pattern, with this kind of motion" guys kill me. ****, if you punch or kick, poke around, and say you use a jade ring or a hook stance, it's mantis to me. Who gives a **** if it's northern or southern? Can I punch fast and on target? Yup. But oh, that's right, if I punch you in the SD way it doesn't hurt as much as if I hit someone in a northerly direction?:rolleyes:



Because they're the only MA organization that teaches drunken boxing, which isn't that wushu BS--more like a dance routine. They didn't lie. They said they'd teach me drunken boxing, and if I work hard enough, they will. I already have a little bit of it.



Watch out, if you keep repeating that you'll believe it sooner or later. Here, try this. It'll cool your throat. What is it? It's Kool Aid, my man. I've seen you rehash this one so many times I figure you've been drinking your own urine for too long and are starting to get brain damage.



It was there to honor GM The', purchased by students. An Abbot came down to see it. He didn't donate it. But hell, there's a picture of the ol' geeza next to the stele, and it's sitting next to his rec room. If the old geeza didn't have a problem with it, what's your beef? I'm beginning to think you think you're the Shaolin Grandmaster.



You haven't seen wushu, have you? Oh, it's lost. I tried it once, and one of my friends has done it 6 years. He can't hang with me for 15 seconds, and he has 3X my experience....LOL. Sometimes I think it's SD's greatest attribute that it isn't typical CMA. At least hte guys I practice with can fight/box...whatever.



I mean, seriously. If I can throw a roundhouse, a straight punch, a jab, a snap kick, a heel kick.....jesus, if I can land those in good combinations, who cares if it's Northern Mantis? Either you can hit someone or you can't. So if all you have to say is: When you pretend like you're a Northern Mantis you don't look buggy enough---sheeyat, man. Go get mantiddy witcha self.

Our organization refers to this set as San Zan (triple stance / triple battle). I have seen the Sam Chien set and it looks almost identical to my friends San Chin set from Isshinryu karate. I've also seen the Goju set, which looks almost the same..

I dont really care one way or another, but the exact similarities are defining. A while back I was talking to my Sifu about the SD curriculum. I showed him a copy I printed from one of the SD websites that mentioned the bird forms etc,. He looked at the curriculum and acknowledged he was familar with these sets. However, he stated that the bird forms and a few others (which I forgot there names) were created at the Fukien Shaolin Temple explicitedly for the Okinawan karate masters that traveled to Fukien Shaolin to learn kung fu. Historically, this can be backed by documentation of the sets the Okinawan masters learned, which most Traditional Shuri 'Te karate systems have so documented...

Anyway, I have seen some of the SD curriculm that incorporates other Chinese classical kung fu sets.

I bring this up to give some of you guys something to think about, not to start sh!t! I have several emails out to Traditional Okinawan Shuri 'Te schools that are familiar with the Fukien "Bird" forms / sets. Hopefully, I will get some interesting replies and more documentation on this matter...

Just a thought.
CS

[Baqualin]

Our organization refers to this set as San Zan (triple stance / triple battle). I have seen the Sam Chien set and it looks almost identical to my friends San Chin set from Isshinryu karate. I've also seen the Goju set, which looks almost the same..

I dont really care one way or another, but the exact similarities are defining. A while back I was talking to my Sifu about the SD curriculum. I showed him a copy I printed from one of the SD websites that mentioned the bird forms etc,. He looked at the curriculum and acknowledged he was familar with these sets. However, he stated that the bird forms and a few others (which I forgot there names) were created at the Fukien Shaolin Temple explicitedly for the Okinawan karate masters that traveled to Fukien Shaolin to learn kung fu. Historically, this can be backed by documentation of the sets the Okinawan masters learned, which most Traditional Shuri 'Te karate systems have so documented...

Anyway, I have seen some of the SD curriculm that incorporates other Chinese classical kung fu sets.

I bring this up to give some of you guys something to think about, not to start sh!t! I have several emails out to Traditional Okinawan Shuri 'Te schools that are familiar with the Fukien "Bird" forms / sets. Hopefully, I will get some interesting replies and more documentation on this matter...

Just a thought.
CS

Cool, Thanks CS....very interesting...looking foward to more. Merry XMAS!!!
BQ

[Mas Judt]

Dude, did I misconstrue your statement? Are you saying you could go one on one with Matt Hughes on the street?

Nope, you got it correct. But you probably are not understanding the contextual meaning.

[Mas Judt]

I showed him a copy I printed from one of the SD websites that mentioned the bird forms etc,. He looked at the curriculum and acknowledged he was familar with these sets. However, he stated that the bird forms and a few others (which I forgot there names) were created at the Fukien Shaolin Temple explicitedly for the Okinawan karate masters that traveled to Fukien Shaolin to learn kung fu. Historically, this can be backed by documentation of the sets the Okinawan masters learned, which most Traditional Shuri 'Te karate systems have so documented...

Anyway, I have seen some of the SD curriculm that incorporates other Chinese classical kung fu sets.

I bring this up to give some of you guys something to think about, not to start sh!t! I have several emails out to Traditional Okinawan Shuri 'Te schools that are familiar with the Fukien "Bird" forms / sets. Hopefully, I will get some interesting replies and more documentation on this matter...

I'd be curious too. If you could show a link like this, it would be very interesting.

[Judge Pen]

A while back I was talking to my Sifu about the SD curriculum. I showed him a copy I printed from one of the SD websites that mentioned the bird forms etc,. He looked at the curriculum and acknowledged he was familar with these sets. However, he stated that the bird forms and a few others (which I forgot there names) were created at the Fukien Shaolin Temple explicitedly for the Okinawan karate masters that traveled to Fukien Shaolin to learn kung fu. Historically, this can be backed by documentation of the sets the Okinawan masters learned, which most Traditional Shuri 'Te karate systems have so documented...

Interesting stuff. This is the first reference I've heard of regarding the bird forms outside of SD. Please let me know what else you find.

[Citong Shifu]

Cool, Thanks CS....very interesting...looking foward to more. Merry XMAS!!!
BQ

Remember, My post is not and was not the end all or final thought/s on SD. Just another point of view. However, if in fact the Fukien kung fu monks devised these styles / sets for the Okinawan karate master, then they came from Shaolin :D.

Best of wishes to you and your family. Merry Xmas.
CS

[Citong Shifu]

I'd be curious too. If you could show a link like this, it would be very interesting.

MJ,
Give me time to put together something historically documented. I dont want to fall into the he said / she said thing... As I've mentioned, this analogy was just another way of looking at the differences...

Merry Xmas
CS

[Citong Shifu]

Interesting stuff. This is the first reference I've heard of regarding the bird forms outside of SD. Please let me know what else you find.

JP,
I will. I just need to make sure there's more than one organization that shares said documentation first... As far as I know, there is. Now Its a waiting game, lol... Just waiting for my email replies...

Merry Xmas
CS

[BM2]

Remember, My post is not and was not the end all or final thought/s on SD. CS

Que? I thought that this was going to be the final installment of the saga;)
Now it's the never ending story:p

[Shaolin Wookie]

Nope, you got it correct. But you probably are not understanding the contextual meaning.

You might just get the honor of making my sig with this one.