Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Baqualin]

Dude...:rolleyes:

Hey GT,
Coming to world Tai Chi day at the school (POT LUCK:D)
BQ

[brucereiter]

hi mark,

check the following links :D

http://www.protroll.com/

http://www.jlc.net/~hlevin/

[Baqualin]

My point is he wasn't a 10th degree black belt, this I know, he was an 8th or 9th degree. All i was asking was this........Was there anyone present at the time he was awarded his 10th degree my GM I? Thats all I was asking. Obviously you have a problem with me asking that question, which if I were looking for a school would raise questions to its legitamacy. I would be like whats he got to hide.

As an insurance salesman I would figure you would have a better knowledge of grammer.

I became a student of GMS in 1974.....he was 10 degree at that time & his brother was 7th...so no you don't know. How old were you then.... 2 or were you even born yet....I do love how you come on here and continue to make an A$$ of yourself

[Eternal Student]

As an insurance salesman I would figure you would have a better knowledge of grammer.

I became a student of GMS in 1974.....he was 10 degree at that time & his brother was 7th...so no you don't know. How old were you then.... 2 or were you even born yet....I do love how you come on here and continue to make an A$$ of yourself

Bite your tongue!!! He swore he would not do that anymore!!! Don't you trust him?:p

[shen ku]

?? i started training, not dirictly under GM sin , but it was 1985 and he was 10th then, so that all i can add to this , i have always heard a story about when he got it but i was not around at that time :)

[Judge Pen]

My point is he wasn't a 10th degree black belt, this I know, he was an 8th or 9th degree. All i was asking was this........Was there anyone present at the time he was awarded his 10th degree my GM I? Thats all I was asking. Obviously you have a problem with me asking that question, which if I were looking for a school would raise questions to its legitamacy. I would be like whats he got to hide.

*tongue firmly planted in cheek*

Sure, all of his senior students were there. You can ask them. There was a big ceremony with fireworks. I'm sure that this totally changes your opinion of the legitimacy of Master The's art and his rank. :eek::rolleyes:

[brucereiter]

So Greatgrandmaster I was there presenting the certificate of 10th degree with all his (Sin The's) senior students there watching or was it that he presented it to himself with his senior students there? I can present a diploma to my self and say it was from who ever. My point is that NO ONE saw him recieve this title from the Great Grandmaster himself. It's all hear say basically. Right?

what is it you are trying to find out?

there are many other issues with shaolin do that might be more interesting to debate.

or are you just trolling?

[shen ku]

ok for that matter you could say the same for sin the , he is the top of a system that he has picked what material will be used for what rank , he is the top of his art shaolin-do?? :rolleyes:

[Eternal Student]

But he's not the founder of the system. Haing The' is so that gives him the right to do whatever he wants.

I am still waiting for you to contribute something constructive to this debate.
Please, do me a favor. Stop playing World of Warcraft, move out of your parent's basement and be a constructive member of society.

[kungfujunky]

sin is older than hsiang and started shaolin do before hsiang was even in the us.

so according to your admittedly flawed logic sin the is the grandmaster of shaolin do as hsiang is the gm of central shaolin (which in point of fact are the same system)

again you are creating an "issue" or "troll topic" without any idea of what the hell you are talking about.

also this very topic was discussed in this very thread a while ago so why not try something new and research that pointless drivel you decide to spew before you spew it.

go drink YOUR NON Shaolin-Do kool aid and shut up mark.

[kwaichang]

MKriii, so now you are trying to fuel a debate about The two brothers mentioned before. I tthink you should be barred from this forum. You contribute nothing and just try to start things. However it often understood that when a Master passes the reins along to someone they are promoted to the highest level of the system ie: 10th or Grand Master or 8th or what ever the style recognises. Long ago Shoto Kan only progressed to 5th BB and there were only white and brown and black belt. KC

[brucereiter]

Now I will except that Haing The' is a Grandmaster because he invented or came up with the the system Central Shaolin. To my knowledge I never heard of Central Shaolin until he came up with it or brought it to the publics attention. Therefore being a systems founder he would be the Grandmaster. Now if the system had been around before him then I would be questioning his rank or belt level as well.

please read the translation of the rank cert again. "Central Plains Shaolin Wushu School " is the name of ie chang mings school he had in bandung.

"central shaolin martial arts" is what hiang calls his school
the name is not something that hiang just came up with

the cert has been hanging in the lexington school for many years.

[shadowlin]

I'm just trying to get legitimate info on GM The's real belt level. I've heard that he promoted himself to 10th degree black belt after he won some tournament and beat a bunch of people. I also heard that he wanted to promote his brother to 8th or 9th degree black belt and he (Haing) said no that he (Sin) wasn't a true 10th degree and didn't have the right (authority) to promote someone to whatever degree belt it was and that incident contributed to the split up of the two brothers. :D


that's not what did it, and frankly I don't think here is the proper place to say what really happened. But it didn't involve Hiang being the more noble brother. Your wires are crossed.



Now I will except that Haing The' is a Grandmaster because he invented or came up with the the system Central Shaolin. To my knowledge I never heard of Central Shaolin until he came up with it or brought it to the publics attention. Therefore being a systems founder he would be the Grandmaster. Now if the system had been around before him then I would be questioning his rank or belt level as well.
I'm sure he's relieved that you accept him. But no, he didn't come up with anything.
I know an ex Hiang student and they are teaching the same stuff.

and yeah, i'm bored, and it's late.

[shadowlin]

So Greatgrandmaster I was there presenting the certificate of 10th degree with all his (Sin The's) senior students there watching or was it that he presented it to himself with his senior students there? I can present a diploma to my self and say it was from who ever. My point is that NO ONE saw him recieve this title from the Great Grandmaster himself. It's all hear say basically. Right?

not its business, mustn't ask.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Personally, I think this whole conversation is so constipated we need a little help. Oh, wait, I've got it:

[kwaichang]

Thats funny. But I am warped anyway. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL....I don't know why anyone wants to crusade on this forum.....

The Do is the Do. Either you Do it, or you Do'nt. Either you like the Do, or you Do'nt.

Either you believe in the Do, or you Do'nt.

But if you Do'nt believe in the Do, Do'nt bother trying to make others Do. They won't.

If you enjoy the Do, Do it. If you Do'nt, then you're either constipated by "officially sanctioned by the Chinese" MA's and lineage traditions, or you Do'nt like the system.

Hell, I thought Longfist was crap, and I was getting it from a real, little, and really little Chinese man. So whenever I hear how great all official CMA's are vs. the Do, it Do'nt bother me much. LOL...even Capoeira had better applicability than many schools I've stepped into. At least everyone there was in monster cardio-condition.;)

[MasterKiller]

Hell, I thought Longfist was crap, and I was getting it from a real, little, and really little Chinese man.

LOL! SD has longfist.

[Eternal Student]

You know what, I'm not trying to debate anyone here. And as for the stupid troll comment, you probably look like a troll. I'd rather make a troll statement then to look like a troll. Now as for my comments.....I'm saying that there is NO person around to substantiate that GM Sin recieved his 10th degree black belt from GM I. Now on the other hand with GM Haing The' he is the FIRST of his system. There was no one before him so that would make him the GM. So take that you troll!!!!:mad:

And we are saying that this topic has already been addressed in this very thread. Stop being a lazy ass and go back and look it up yourself.

[Eternal Student]

Well since I'm in a mood to argue with you Eternal Jack A** I'll tell your lazy ass to bite me!!!! I'm not to lazy to look it up, I'm just trying to get you to come to your senses and wake up and small the coffee. Answer me this one question and I'll stop.....Who was present when Great Grandmaster I Chang Ming gave Sin The' his 10th degree and made him the new Grandmaster? Who I ask? Don't you find it a little strange that Sin goes away a 8th degree and a few months later he comes back a Grandmaster and a 10th degree? He went up 2 belts in a few months? Hmmmm. Sounds a little bogus to me.

Of course you think it sounds bogus because you are a troll, plain and simple. If you are not lazy then you would go back in the thread and look up the answers for yourself, or better yet, since you live in Lexington, go to the school and ask EM Leonard himself. I am sure he would be more than willing to answer your lame question.

[Eternal Student]

Don't get all bent out of shape just because we call you on your b.s. If you cannot man up and find the information on your own and have a coherent debate on this forum that is your problem. No one here has a vested interest in spoon feeding you the information.

[Eternal Student]

I'll spoon feed you but you won't like what it is, and thats my size 11 upside your head. And believe me I can do it. Especially if you do SD. Your all brainwashed and think that your the shiaat. Well I got news for you, your not. Not even close. Your a joke to the MA community. Whenever SD comes up in the conversations of MAtists we laugh and snicker. Why don't you man up? Meet with me and answer my questions. Be a man Eternal Jack A**.

Of course you could, and I am sure you can defy gravity and dodge bullets too. If I recall, you have been asked to cross hands with SD members before, and it never happened. So I think I would be waiting for quite some time.

[Eternal Student]

If your so confident that I won't then why don't you take me up on it then Jack A**? You name a neutral place thats half way between us and I'll show up. How about that!!!

Why don't you try and meet with the people that you previously agreed to first? The list seems to be getting longer. You might even **GASP** find out the answers to your questions. Imagine that!

[Baqualin]

If your so confident that I won't then why don't you take me up on it then Jack A**? You name a neutral place thats half way between us and I'll show up. How about that!!!

Kroger parking lot Boston Rd. 5:45 today....I drive a white 2000 Blazer and I will be alone.
BQ

[brucereiter]

I'll spoon feed you but you won't like what it is, and thats my size 11 upside your head. And believe me I can do it. Especially if you do SD. Your all brainwashed and think that your the shiaat. Well I got news for you, your not. Not even close. Your a joke to the MA community. Whenever SD comes up in the conversations of MAtists we laugh and snicker. Why don't you man up? Meet with me and answer my questions. Be a man Eternal Jack A**.

hi mark,

do you have any videos of some of your martial practice you will share on this forum?
are there any videos on youtube that represent what your system does?
i am curious about your martial arts.

speaking in absolutes often times will cause you to misspeak ...

[Baqualin]

I'll spoon feed you but you won't like what it is, and thats my size 11 upside your head. And believe me I can do it. Especially if you do SD. Your all brainwashed and think that your the shiaat. Well I got news for you, your not. Not even close. Your a joke to the MA community. Whenever SD comes up in the conversations of MAtists we laugh and snicker. Why don't you man up? Meet with me and answer my questions. Be a man Eternal Jack A**.

The only one who has come on here and thought the're the sh!t, is you young man or should I say childbrain since that's the picture that you paint for all on here to see.
BQ

I almost forgot to mention that if your representive of all Ng Family martial arts then I'm d@mn glad I do study SD....GMS never taught us to be A-holes

[Citong Shifu]

hi mark,

do you have any videos of some of your martial practice you will share on this forum?
are there any videos on youtube that represent what your system does?
i am curious about your martial arts.

speaking in absolutes often times will cause you to misspeak ...

Mark, I'd like to see some action videos too. I don't practice SD and am pretty nuetral toward this subject. Just want to compare your training, technique, etc to the SD guys. I think your video action could clarify the point your trying to get across....

CS

[BentMonk]

mkriii - Dude, it's cool that you think your teachers are better than SD. What's not cool is the fact that you're acting like a third grader in a playground name calling contest. I'm sure that no one who teaches MA would want their students to behave the way you have on this thread. You have backed out of every invitation to meet with someone from SD. This and your demeanor speak volumes about your character, or lack there of. There are many in the MA community that take issue with SD's lineage. They also take issue with many other styles lineage. Most people could care less because lineage has no bearing on the effectiveness of technique. To those who say SD's techniques are not effective I say that that varies by practitioner. I have competed successfully in many tournaments outside of SD. I have even taken it to the ring full contact, and won. So IMO SD's techniques work just fine. Of course, that might have something to do with how I train them, I don't know. When I was competing in these tournaments I was not ridiculed in any way for studying SD. In fact I've crossed hands with folks from TKD, Shoto Kan, Isshin Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Boxing, BJJ, and MMA. None of these folks laughed at me. I doubt that they were just being nice. One of them even remarked, "You guys may have a weird lineage, but your hands are legit." I'm sorry that you have nothing better to do with your time than come on here and make an ass of yourself. Still, it's your time, waste it how you will. Best of luck to you and your trolling. BTW, may I offer you a refreshing glass of ice cold Kool Aid? :D

[Lamassu]

I'll spoon feed you but you won't like what it is, and thats my size 11 upside your head. And believe me I can do it. Especially if you do SD. Your all brainwashed and think that your the shiaat. Well I got news for you, your not. Not even close. Your a joke to the MA community. Whenever SD comes up in the conversations of MAtists we laugh and snicker. Why don't you man up? Meet with me and answer my questions. Be a man Eternal Jack A**.

The chicken sh!t coward is back talking smack! Hi loser, how are you? Doing well I see, soooooooooo, ever hook up with Bagualin? No? Of course not you're a scared little boy hiding in the comfort of your mommy's panties. LOL, this sh!t is too hilarious, everytime you come on here swingin' your proverbial baby d!ck, someone else has to whip theirs out and put you in your place (as usual). You amuse me Mark, you're like a clown to me. Make me laugh Mark, just say something, anything I find your bitterness quite entertaining.

[kwaichang]

Ill be up this week end MK I will cross with you "neutral as they say" BTW I think this number4 or is it 5 times I have offered to meet you.
I will be in town at 11:30 AM. KC:rolleyes::mad::):eek::D

[kungfujunky]

mark hsiang the is not the first of central shaolin. that was ie chang ming who created that...then sin renamed it. so in point of fact hsiang is the impostor.

hsiang was GIVEN his rank by his students.

[MasterKiller]

Ill be up this week end MK I will cross with you "neutral as they say" BTW I think this number4 or is it 5 times I have offered to meet you.
I will be in town at 11:30 AM. KC:rolleyes::mad::):eek::D

There is only one MK, and JP is his prophet.

[Baqualin]

hi mark,

do you have any videos of some of your martial practice you will share on this forum?
are there any videos on youtube that represent what your system does?
i am curious about your martial arts.

speaking in absolutes often times will cause you to misspeak ...


Here's a link to MKrii's teacher on utube..../www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1t53fPDMw&feature=related
BQ

[brucereiter]

Here's a link to MKrii's teacher on utube..../www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1t53fPDMw&feature=related
BQ

i saw that one ... did he win the competition?
i was hoping to see some of their tai chi chuan, pakua and hsing i ... i heard that is what john dufrense (sp) main things ...

what is the lineage of their tai chi chuan, pakua, and hsing i?

[Old Noob]

I was wondering whether any of the contributors to this thread have read The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text originally published in 2004 by "The Order of Shaolin Ch'an?" If so, what is your opinion of the book and the legitimacy of the claims therein? Finally, if you view the book's contents as legitimate, is it informative to the basic question of this thread?

vr
ON

[kwaichang]

OK MK I dont think you are the only one but I meant MKriii Your ego seems great my padowan KC

[cjurakpt]

Here's a link to MKrii's teacher on utube..../www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1t53fPDMw&feature=related
BQ

what the he1l was that?

[Citong Shifu]

Here's a link to MKrii's teacher on utube..../www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1t53fPDMw&feature=related
BQ

I cant seem to pull the video up. Will you paste the direct link to the youtube video.

Thanks.
CS

[kungfujunky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1t53fPDMw&feature=related

[Citong Shifu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1t53fPDMw&feature=related

Thanks!

Was that a stomping form? Hmmmm :confused:.

CS

[kwaichang]

And they call SD forms crap. Not impressed at all. KC:confused:

[Ngfamilymember]

Wow, I usually don't partake in any of these discussions...BUT I don't think my sigungs video was intended to really impress you! You have what you have and I'm sure that "impresses" you, as other styles have what they have and that "impresses" them! Every style has its pro's and con's and it really isn't fair for any of us to delegate what style is crap and what style isn't...not without digging deep and trying to understand the underlining principles and concepts that makes the style what it is.

Personally, it is kind of sad to see this debate still going on. Same arguement years ago and looks like much hasn't changed. You will always have people trying to force their opinions (whether it be productive or destructive) onto others for what they think is "better" but it is just that we all as martial artist (in my opinion) should be open and free to explore other styles/systems/methods so that we may grow and prosper. The day we bind ourselves down and get stuck in a box is the day that we cease to move forward.

Hope this conversation turns around and starts going in the right direction again for everyone. Take care and continue to train hard.
-Ngfamilymember (aka Jeff)

[kungfujunky]

hey jeff maybe you can rein in your student or fellow trainer mark. he is a blight on your system and his mouth is digging a deep hole.

also no clue what those forms were that he was performing. hard to find serious martial(practical fighting application) use in those movements.

but maybe i just didnt see it right

[Ngfamilymember]

Kungfujunky,
Sorry, but Mark is his own man. He's a big boy so he can choose to do as he wishes, I'm not the person to set anything straight. We are all accountable for our actions, no one else. Don't know him that well either, just met him a couple of times at tournaments. Seems like you guys might know him better than I.

As for the form comment, well you should know as everyone else that sometimes it is hard to see applications within the frame work of form movements. Sometimes it takes an instructor to unlock techniques that are overlooked or seem to be something entirely different. Even a styles simplest techniques are hidden when viewed by outsiders. I'm sure this is true with your style also. Sorry that I couldn't have been of more help.

I'm out, Take care and train hard.
-Ngfamilymember (aka Jeff)

[BentMonk]

I'll give a nod of respect to anyone with the stones to post themselves online. The practitioner in the clip had leg strength, flexibility, and an enthusiastic spirit. From a martial perspective I saw very little power generation from the hips, and a lack of solid over all body structure. JMO

[Baqualin]

Kungfujunky,
Sorry, but Mark is his own man. He's a big boy so he can choose to do as he wishes, I'm not the person to set anything straight. We are all accountable for our actions, no one else. Don't know him that well either, just met him a couple of times at tournaments. Seems like you guys might know him better than I.

As for the form comment, well you should know as everyone else that sometimes it is hard to see applications within the frame work of form movements. Sometimes it takes an instructor to unlock techniques that are overlooked or seem to be something entirely different. Even a styles simplest techniques are hidden when viewed by outsiders. I'm sure this is true with your style also. Sorry that I couldn't have been of more help.

I'm out, Take care and train hard.
-Ngfamilymember (aka Jeff)

Hey Jeff,
I posted the link to Dr. Ng to show some on here Mark's background and that he does come from a legit teacher....not for critique....it is in no way intended to cut down the Ng Family arts....I'm very familiar with your system......it's just that Mark is a very poor representive of the system. I would like to thank you for coming on here and showing the true spirit of the Ng family.....we're all brothers....... we have bad seeds too.
BQ

[Lamassu]

Sorry, but Mark is his own man. He's a big boy so he can choose to do as he wishes, I'm not the person to set anything straight. We are all accountable for our actions, no one else. Don't know him that well either, just met him a couple of times at tournaments. Seems like you guys might know him better than I.
-Ngfamilymember (aka Jeff)

Oh we know Mark. He's this guy that likes to play this little game of antagonizing anyone on this forum that's SD, for his own amusement. Now, I'm sorry if you feel the Ng family martial arts were dragged through the mud, that was uncalled for and unneccesary. Like you said, Mark is his own man and (I assume) he can take care of himself, but he shouldn't dish anything out if he can't take it in. He comes on this forum acting very aggressive to any SD student to make himself feel better, but when he gets a spoonful of his own medicine he runs like the coward he is. I have no problem with the Ng family martial arts, I just think Mark is a whiny, scared; insecure little boy of a man and everytime he posts on this forum I picture a baby crying for attention, so I give the baby the same kind of attention he gives us. Mark will always be a piece of sh!t to me and I'm that's what he'll always be until the day his body resembles his personality... dog sh!t.

[Ngfamilymember]

Personally,
I appreciate everyones tone of respect and humbleness within this matter. BQ: I understand and you are correct, we are all brothers/sisters...most of us trying to reach a deeper understanding of our arts. Lam: Hopefully Mark and you will work something out and develop a different type of relationship in the future.

I hope this discussion topic turns 180 degrees and starts to become more productive. I've viewed this topic for a while now and a lot of people who post on here have geniune knowledge and offer valuable insight within their style(s). Hopefully people will come to the agreement that not every style is exactly perfect and that other (different) styles have something offer even to the most seasoned practioner.

Thanks guys. Again, take care and train hard.
Respectfully,
-Ngfamilymember (aka Jeff)

[Judge Pen]

Personally,
I appreciate everyones tone of respect and humbleness within this matter. BQ: I understand and you are correct, we are all brothers/sisters...most of us trying to reach a deeper understanding of our arts. Lam: Hopefully Mark and you will work something out and develop a different type of relationship in the future.

I hope this discussion topic turns 180 degrees and starts to become more productive. I've viewed this topic for a while now and a lot of people who post on here have geniune knowledge and offer valuable insight within their style(s). Hopefully people will come to the agreement that not every style is exactly perfect and that other (different) styles have something offer even to the most seasoned practioner.

Thanks guys. Again, take care and train hard.
Respectfully,
-Ngfamilymember (aka Jeff)

I wish more posts were of this tone and respect. If so, I think we could learn more from one another and do less tearing down. MRKiii could learn a lesson or two....

[mkriii]

hey jeff maybe you can rein in your student or fellow trainer mark. he is a blight on your system and his mouth is digging a deep hole.

also no clue what those forms were that he was performing. hard to find serious martial(practical fighting application) use in those movements.

but maybe i just didnt see it right

When you say you don't know what forms "he" was doing you make it sound like it is me doing the form. That IS NOT me doing the form. Just to clarify that for everyone. Also I couldn't see the clip due to a block on my competer but I can assure you that the forms we do are good forms. I don't know who or what form this person is doing but I'll check it out when I get home.

[Baqualin]

When you say you don't know what forms "he" was doing you make it sound like it is me doing the form. That IS NOT me doing the form. Just to clarify that for everyone. Also I couldn't see the clip due to a block on my competer but I can assure you that the forms we do are good forms. I don't know who or what form this person is doing but I'll check it out when I get home.

:rolleyes:wow, he can't read:confused:I think it's time to ignore and maybe he will go away:o

[kungfujunky]

mark out of all the replies i have given to you thats all you can say?

troll

[Old Noob]

Much has been made over the last couple of pages about how nice it would be to have a respectful conversation about the differences between the posters' various styles. Yet, I posted what I thought was a relevant and respectful question two days ago without getting a single response. Instead, all posts from the last two days focus on this Mark fellow, his teacher, his style, or his bad behavior. I'm starting to believe that the name of this thread should be changed from "Is Shaolin Do For Real?" to "Is Mark For Real?" Guys, respectfully, Mark has hijacked your forum.

I've just started posting to this thread but I've read nearly the entire thing. If I might make a recommendation, ignore anything posted by Mark and let's get on with a more valid conversation. He'll eventually go away if you stop lavishing him with attention.

That's the rant. I'm not making these comments to be incendiary but merely to point out that, if the goal is truly to have a respectful conversation, we have to eliminate this Mark fellow from it. If you all enjoy reading his literary diarrhea and retorting (I'll grant you he makes it pretty easy), then stop talking about how we wish that the conversation was more respectful here and we can just make this the "Everybody bash Mark" thread.:D

[Baqualin]

Much has been made over the last couple of pages about how nice it would be to have a respectful conversation about the differences between the posters' various styles. Yet, I posted what I thought was a relevant and respectful question two days ago without getting a single response. Instead, all posts from the last two days focus on this Mark fellow, his teacher, his style, or his bad behavior. I'm starting to believe that the name of this thread should be changed from "Is Shaolin Do For Real?" to "Is Mark For Real?" Guys, respectfully, Mark has hijacked your forum.

I've just started posting to this thread but I've read nearly the entire thing. If I might make a recommendation, ignore anything posted by Mark and let's get on with a more valid conversation. He'll eventually go away if you stop lavishing him with attention.

That's the rant. I'm not making these comments to be incendiary but merely to point out that, if the goal is truly to have a respectful conversation, we have to eliminate this Mark fellow from it. If you all enjoy reading his literary diarrhea and retorting (I'll grant you he makes it pretty easy), then stop talking about how we wish that the conversation was more respectful here and we can just make this the "Everybody bash Mark" thread.:D

Welcome old noob....your right!!.....sorry no one responded to your question regarding the manual....it's been bashed by most (the experts) on here and other threads as not being very accurate.....this probally explains the lack of response to your question. By the way you seem very familar to me;)
BQ

[mkriii]

hey jeff maybe you can rein in your student or fellow trainer mark. he is a blight on your system and his mouth is digging a deep hole.

also no clue what those forms were that he was performing. hard to find serious martial(practical fighting application) use in those movements.

but maybe i just didnt see it right

You talk about me being a blight and digging a deep whole then in the next sentence you say you don't know what form he is doing. So yes, it does make it seem your talking about me. I can't help it if you ramble on from one topic to the next whith out any coherency. Maybe you should go back to English 101 class and study up on essay writing and short story writing. After all, all your doing is telling fairytails about yourself.

[Judge Pen]

You talk about me being a blight and digging a deep whole then in the next sentence you say you don't know what form he is doing. So yes, it does make it seem your talking about me. I can't help it if you ramble on from one topic to the next whith out any coherency. Maybe you should go back to English 101 class and study up on essay writing and short story writing. After all, all your doing is telling fairytails about yourself.

;););););)

[Baqualin]

;););););)

I was going to do that.......but I'm trying to ignore:D
BQ

[Judge Pen]

I was going to do that.......but I'm trying to ignore:D
BQ

I should have, but it was just too tempting.... I'll be better from here on out.

On a constructive note, I enjoyed seeing Dr. Ng's form. I confess I don't recognize the style/form, but he displayed great balance, leg strength and flexibility. I wouldn't mind having a constructive discussion on his form, it's origins, applications etc. Can anyone enlighten me on that?

[Baqualin]

I should have, but it was just too tempting.... I'll be better from here on out.

Promise:D

On a constructive note, I enjoyed seeing Dr. Ng's form. I confess I don't recognize the style/form, but he displayed great balance, leg strength and flexibility. I wouldn't mind having a constructive discussion on his form, it's origins, applications etc. Can anyone enlighten me on that?

Me to...I'm curious about the stomping in that form....I've seen some people do that with their Hsing I......what is the purpose....power generation.....distraction?
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Me to...I'm curious about the stomping in that form....I've seen some people do that with their Hsing I......what is the purpose....power generation.....distraction?
BQ
I've seen "stomping" in several forms--sometimes it has a purpose and sometimes it doesn't. The reasons vary. With the people that do it with their Hsing Ie, I think it is about planting/rooting and the stomping is incidental as much as anything. With the Siang Chung Li form, it is about power generation. I've also seen it for distraction which was actually an application my first teacher described for me in regards to short form #24.

Someone from Ng family will need to talk about the reasons for it in this form.

[Eternal Student]

Me to...I'm curious about the stomping in that form....I've seen some people do that with their Hsing I......what is the purpose....power generation.....distraction?
BQ

Although I am still new to the style, I am pretty sure that in Hsing I, it is used for power generation, such as with crushing fist.

[Baqualin]

Although I am still new to the style, I am pretty sure that in Hsing I, it is used for power generation, such as with crushing fist.

I use it in crushing fist too....but thats off the back foot....he's stomping his front foot.

[BM2]

Since I'm on dial-up:o, I didn't watch the stomping however it appears through the discussion that it is similar to what M. Sin said about power generation. He explained that the sumo wrestlers will do a stomp to send it up their leg and through the hip/shoulder/palm. He added that Hsing Ie also had its version but the one that used it more effectively was the drunken version.
As always, this was a long time ago and I may not recall it correctly.
As a side note, is fairytails a Freudian slip?

[Judge Pen]

As a side note, is fairytails a Freudian slip?


LOL!!! :p :p

[Citong Shifu]

I should have, but it was just too tempting.... I'll be better from here on out.

On a constructive note, I enjoyed seeing Dr. Ng's form. I confess I don't recognize the style/form, but he displayed great balance, leg strength and flexibility. I wouldn't mind having a constructive discussion on his form, it's origins, applications etc. Can anyone enlighten me on that?

Stomping in the Chinese forms can be for many reasons, distractions, power generating, etc. However, all Chinese styles rather internal or external start with conditioning of the body. In this and many other cases the stomping movements are practiced to "condition" the foot, so when executing a foot stomp to an attackers foot (toes, instep, ankle, etc) the technique can be effective without the presence of root, qi, etc.... This can be looked at the same way as kicking our hand/s when performing a front toe kick with foot slap, inside & outside cross kick (cresent kicks), etc, conditioning the hands first. Now, as we go through the conditioning phase the techniques become solid/powerful, we're able to practice them correctly without the associated discomfort that comes with these techniques, we are then able to train the rooting and power generating aspects of such techniques... Without the correct progerssion, one is merely spinning his/her own wheels while only gaining half the insight of any given technique....

Without conditioning first, you would damage your body and its stiking limbs. One must condition first through the various training aspects of our forms, this way one can safely pracice power generating and root when striking heavy bags, iron palm bags, etc....

IMO.
CS

[Old Noob]

BQ,

Thanks. That's valuable information. I took a year of Kung Fu in high school from Sifu Mike Barry in MD. His school was fantastic but had no formal advancement process (no belts/sashes or anything like that). I was also involved in a lot of other activities. Consequently, I never learned what specific style I was learning, nor its origin, and left after a year. I knew only that the studio was called Shaolin Longfist Kung Fu. I know from more recent research that Sifu Mike is a Jow Ga stylist.

Anyway, long story short, I recently decided to re-initiate martial arts training and started looking for a school. In doing my research, I read the Shaolin GMs' text by "the Order of Shaolin Ch'an" and looked at what was available in the area. In the end, after taking some introductory classes at a few places, I decided on an SD school.

The reason that I asked about the Shaolin GMs' text is that I found nothing in it that directly contradicted the SD lineage and there was much direct support in that book for the SD program of instruction. In any case, I've been very satisfied with SD for the short time I've been going. Again, thanks for the response.

vr
ON

[Citong Shifu]

I dont remember where It was posted, but can one of you guys list all the Shaolin Temples that are directly resposible for the SD curriculum? I believe someone mentioned it was covered in the book Sin The' wrote (manual).

Thanks
CS

[Old Noob]

It’s occurring to me that I may have caused some confusion. I wasn't asking who had read GM The's book but rather if anyone had read the book called "The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text," which was published in 2004 by monks calling themselves the order of Shaolin Ch'an. The reason I thought the book might be relevant to the discussion was because it seems to be from a neutral source with no SD affiliation. To be clear, the book does not mention SD specifically. Looking at BQ's post and CS's post, it appears you thought I was talking about GM The's book.:confused:

[MasterKiller]

It’s occurring to me that I may have caused some confusion. I wasn't asking who had read GM The's book but rather if anyone had read the book called "The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text," which was published in 2004 by monks calling themselves the order of Shaolin Ch'an. The reason I thought the book might be relevant to the discussion was because it seems to be from a neutral source with no SD affiliation. To be clear, the book does not mention SD specifically. Looking at BQ's post and CS's post, it appears you thought I was talking about GM The's book.:confused:

This is the book he was referring to. It's crap.

read the online responses here:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32279&highlight=grandmasters+text


GenKwan, I fail to see your logic. Bad reviews in no way add to the credibilty of the book. That's just absurd.

Henning slammed the book, one of the hardest slams I've ever seen JAMA publish, for good reason. Questioning his academic prowess versus OSC is ridiculous. Henning is a published scholar. OSC is a vanity pub. There is no comparison. The funny thing to me is that your post reminds me of the little blow-in 'apology' card, which sets the tone - calling its own advice 'excellent', saying that it's based on oral tradition, confessing ignorance, saying that its an 'inside' perspective - they all betray a certain lack of confidence, a prepared defense, if you will. When a card like that falls out into your lap the instant you first crack the book, it instills a feeling of amatuerishness. And that's just the beginning.

I hope Mr. Henning didn't read the whole book for his own good. Pretty early on, any Shaolin researcher can see how poor the work is - citing Star Wars - come on, really. That could have worked, and may work on the uneducated, but its such a simplistic model and a fantasy at that. I did read the whole work. I'm happy to criticize it point by point, but it would be such a laborious task since there are so many incorrect points. I think Henning just got overwhelmed with the ridiculousness of it, as did I. But I did finish it so if you really want to go, point by point, we can do that. That would be unwise on your part. I would much prefer going point by point with the still anonymous and cowardly OSC.

[Citong Shifu]

It’s occurring to me that I may have caused some confusion. I wasn't asking who had read GM The's book but rather if anyone had read the book called "The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text," which was published in 2004 by monks calling themselves the order of Shaolin Ch'an. The reason I thought the book might be relevant to the discussion was because it seems to be from a neutral source with no SD affiliation. To be clear, the book does not mention SD specifically. Looking at BQ's post and CS's post, it appears you thought I was talking about GM The's book.:confused:


Old Noob, Not at all. I remember reading some posts about Sin The' writting a SD book recently or something like that. I can't remember when but someone from SD was talking about the various Shaolin Temples that their curriculum came from; bird style, tiger, etc... I just cant seem to find those posts or have over looked them... Just thought that one of the senior SD guys could give some referrence to my question....

Thanks
CS

[Judge Pen]

I dont remember where It was posted, but can one of you guys list all the Shaolin Temples that are directly resposible for the SD curriculum? I believe someone mentioned it was covered in the book Sin The' wrote (manual).

Thanks
CS


I'll see if I can find a weblink with that information. I have an article that lists it, but I don't want to dig that up and type it all here if I can avoid it.

[Old Noob]

Thanks for directing me MK. Like any other conversation pertaining to the legitimacy of a particular group claiming Shaolin affiliations or descent there was much controversy. In any case, I found the book to be an enjoyable read and have very much enjoyed my short SD time as well. :D

[Baqualin]

Thanks for directing me MK. Like any other conversation pertaining to the legitimacy of a particular group claiming Shaolin affiliations or descent there was much controversy. In any case, I found the book to be an enjoyable read and have very much enjoyed my short SD time as well. :D

Hey Old Noob,
I knew what book you were speaking of.....as you can see most on these threads think it's crap.....CTS was talking about another subject. I'm very glad your enjoying SD and hope it does you well.....lots of very good people in our system......if your ever in Lexington look me up.....I'm one of the internal instructors...you can find me on Sat.'s 10a to 12p......everyone knows who I am...nothing to hide.
Best,
BQ

[Old Noob]

Hey Old Noob,
I knew what book you were speaking of.....as you can see most on these threads think it's crap.....CTS was talking about another subject. I'm very glad your enjoying SD and hope it does you well.....lots of very good people in our system......if your ever in Lexington look me up.....I'm one of the internal instructors...you can find me on Sat.'s 10a to 12p......everyone knows who I am...nothing to hide.
Best,
BQ

Will do. I'm originally from KY (the Western tip) and still get to the Nashville, TN/Hopkinsville, KY area pretty frequently. If I'm ever in Lexington, I'll take you up on it.

vr
ON

[Citong Shifu]

I'll see if I can find a weblink with that information. I have an article that lists it, but I don't want to dig that up and type it all here if I can avoid it.

Thanks JP. I remember someone mentioning wutang, shantung, kwangtung, etc. I just cant remember wich ones were what.

Thanks again.
cs

[tattooedmonk]

HONAN TEMPLE
Northern Fist, Ground Dragon, Monkey, Praying Mantis, Cotton Fist, Eight Drunken Immortals,10,000 Lotuses Blooming, Golden Snake, Staff, Spear, Jointed Sticks, Single Broadswords, Double Broadswords, Tiger Hook Swords, Double Edged Sword, Three Sectional, Chain Whip, Double Daggers, Double Hand Axes, Single and Double Butterfly Knives

FUKIEN TEMPLE
Southern Fist, Golden Centipede, Sparrow, White Monkey, Wild Horse, Iron Bone Training, Iron Palm Training, Iron Shirt Training, Short Fist.

SHANTUNG TEMPLE
Shantung Black Tiger,Tan Family Leg Techniques

OMEI SHAN TEMPLE
White Crane, Eagle Claw, GoldenC-o-c-k, White Swan, Ostrich.

KWANGTUNG TEMPLE
Tiger-Crane System, Fist of Ch'a, Golden Roaches, 10,000 Bees Attacking.

WUTANG MOUNTAIN TEMPLE
T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Pa Kua Chang, Hsing I Chu'an, Liu Hsing Ch'uan, T'ai Chi Broadsword, Spear, Ta Mo Sword and Double Sword and Spear, Seven Star Sword.

HUA MOUNTAIN TEMPLE
Classical Fist of Hua, Modern Fist of Hua, Chang Ch'uan.

[Baqualin]

Will do. I'm originally from KY (the Western tip) and still get to the Nashville, TN/Hopkinsville, KY area pretty frequently. If I'm ever in Lexington, I'll take you up on it.

vr
ON

Please do....I grew up a mile from the Ballard Co. Line close to Lovelaceville....Graduated from Lone Oak High in 71....always glad to meet someone from home.
BQ

[mkriii]

Please do....I grew up a mile from the Ballard Co. Line close to Lovelaceville....Graduated from Lone Oak High in 71....always glad to meet someone from home.
BQ

Baqualin, Can I stop in to work out with you??? :D

[mkriii]

I stopped by your school last night but you guys had already closed for the night. It was close to 10:00.

[Shaolin Wookie]

In the real world, they don't call that "stopping by".




They call it stalking.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Dudes....you're not going to believe this (maybe you will)...I've gotta vent, I'm so ****ed......:(

So, I work for UPS Freight Monday-Friday on the inbound shift (4am-noon) so that I can take afternoon classes at GSU for my Masters degree, and study my martial arts at night. That is......dun, dun, dun......until the mutha****ing Teamsters came along.

I've worked for this company for four years through its hardest times on a shift that is extremely unpleasant and where we're lucky if anyone sticks with the job for more than four months because of that unpleasantness and the stress--I'm the second-most senior guy in the entire "dock" community, have all the loading routes memorized, and I've been working there 2X as long as 70% of the drivers. I don't have a CDL, so I can't drive, and I can't officially get "full-time" status due to my lack of CDL (but with 2 jobs and grad school, I don't have time for trucking school--plus, I don't want to be a trucker); but, nevertheless, I've worked 40+ hours every week for the past four years. Things were going good, and it looked like I'd graduate with my Masters in about another six-eight months.

I work my ****ing ass off and get straight A's, show up to work on-time, haul ass, work harder than anyone else (with the exception of one of my buddies there), and never complain about the ****ty working conditions and the early hours and the constant pressure placed on production values. And we have a staff of full-time drivers that ***** and whine on a daily basis, complain about their daily job duties, look for any opportunity to slack off and take time off, actually tell managers I'm not going to do this or that....because it's too inconvenient. This from guys making $20+/hr, great health insurance and benefits, with any opportunity for overtime they want, who try their best to stay below 40 hrs.:rolleyes:

But then the mutha****ing Teamsters managed to organize UPS Freight because of these lazy ****ing drivers; and what did they do within three days' time? They gave my shift to the lazy mutha****ing drivers so everyone could get 40 hours a week, except for me.:mad: I work my ****ing ass off every day before ****ing dawn and what do they do? They **** me over...those MUTHER****ERS!!! They put me on "booty-call" status, where they'll call me if they have work for me....and they do this with no warning whatsoever, on Friday, before my weekend and the last two weeks of my semester coming on before finals while I'm looking for an apartment with my girl b/c my roomates are moving out
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................

MUTHA****ERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE APPRECIATION OF MERIT AND HARD WORK IN THIS WORLD. IM SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ****ED AT THIS UNIONIZATION BULL**** THAT IM ACTUALLY GOING TO VOTE REPUBLICAN IN THE NEXT ELECTION. **** WORKERS RIGHTS OF UNION IDEALS AND LIBERAL IDEOLOGIES. I JUST GOT ****ED BY THIS BULL****!

So I place down the phone (yeah, they called me four hours after my shift was over when I'm driving to talk to this new apartment complex with my girl--****ers couldn't tell me face-to-face) and start shouting out every obscenity, pull over, rant and rage, calm down and drive up to where I know two former work buddies of mine work, and manage to find one of them. They owed me so many favors--I'd saved one dude's job at least ten times, and lied to management the first day of the other's employment at UPS, which saved his job when he broke a thousand-dollar pane of glass.

He puts in a word to his boss, tells 'em I'm a hard worker, and his boss said he'll try to get me in for an interview on Monday.

I gotta tell you, when **** like this happens, I have no other words in my vocabulary than "by the grace of God"....etc.:o and have to rethink my cosmic perspective.

There is no such thing as MERIT in this world. There's only good friends and favors, dudes. That's it. I'm hoping....

And yet, there go martial arts classes, because the shift runs noon-9pm. It'll allow me to take 8am classes at GSU, but I'm ****ed for MA for a good time to come if I can get this job.

MUTHA****ING TEAMSTERS.....the Ideology of Laziness and Slackers' Privilege

[Judge Pen]

What about private lessons? Can you work out a deal there that would cost the same as your regular classes? It's worth at least asking your instructors....

[Shaolin Wookie]

What about private lessons? Can you work out a deal there that would cost the same as your regular classes? It's worth at least asking your instructors....

I know people who would....that's probably a good idea, but I don't think I could schedule them anywhere......who knows, maybe I can switch up my weekend job to nights and open up my mornings for the main black belt class. I'm going to have to see.

[themeecer]

I agree with this as well. Forms for fighting are a winding scenic country road. You can take the interstate and get there faster, but the country road is more romantic.

Man!! That was downright poetic. Good stuff.

I have been away from this thread for way too long; I have hundreds of pages to read till I make it till the end. I am excited though. Since everyone has continued the debate this far I have a feeling a conclusion has been made and we can finially step away from our computers and enjoy our training in peace. :)

[MasterKiller]

I agree with this as well. Forms for fighting are a winding scenic country road. You can take the interstate and get there faster, but the country road is more romantic. The implication is that you will eventually arrive at the same spot, but I don't think anyone who is honest with themselves believes this anymore.

[Golden Tiger]

The implication is that you will eventually arrive at the same spot, but I don't think anyone who is honest with themselves believes this anymore.


I would have to kindly disagree with that. Not entirely in regards to fighting, but that seems to be the general attitude about everything these days and when you peel away the top layer, you see the lack of depth and understanding. I work in a very technical field and granted, the new generation can go through the motions, use machines, rely on calculators, etc. but they lack the critical thinking skills associated with taking the scenic route. Knowing why rather than just how.

Yes, you can teach someone "ground and pound" in a few months or a year and yes, they might be great fighters...but how often do people really fight? Non-pro, maybe once every 10 years? But how often is one called upon for speed, agility, flexibility, balance? For me, daily.

So yes, the microwave can heat the food, but its no where near as good as a old fashion home cooked meal.

[kwaichang]

I have to agree with GT on this one KC:):D

[themeecer]

Still punching and kicking. How's things in Kentucky? It's weird to see Tennessee still in the tournament and Ky is out of it.

Ok ... did you really have to use salt on my (our) wounds?

[MasterKiller]

I would have to kindly disagree with that. Not entirely in regards to fighting, but that seems to be the general attitude about everything these days and when you peel away the top layer, you see the lack of depth and understanding. I work in a very technical field and granted, the new generation can go through the motions, use machines, rely on calculators, etc. but they lack the critical thinking skills associated with taking the scenic route. Knowing why rather than just how.

Yes, you can teach someone "ground and pound" in a few months or a year and yes, they might be great fighters...but how often do people really fight? Non-pro, maybe once every 10 years? But how often is one called upon for speed, agility, flexibility, balance? For me, daily.

So yes, the microwave can heat the food, but its no where near as good as a old fashion home cooked meal.

JP said 'forms for fighting,' not 'forms for 'improved physical well-being.'

Kung Fu forms are an awesome way to keep yourself flexible and conditioned. That was their original purpose, anyway.

I don't think Kung Fu is anymore complex than grappling. All these 'microwave' fighters you speak of have pretty technical ground games. Just doing a triangle choke correcty required about 19 individual movements. Then you have to understand all the triangle counters, and the counters to those counters...it's like trigonometery sometimes.

Most CMAists are a mile wide and inch deep. Even the ones who think they understand their forms really don't most of the time.

[Judge Pen]

Since we are talking about my statement, let me interpret what I meant.

I think you can get to the same place with training forms for fighting, but you have to train realistically with your forms to do so. You have to take individual movements from a form understand the concepts behind it and then work on applying it against a resisting opponent. Each move in a form has multiple applications behind it depending on the changing variables of an encounter. The form, however, is a chief part of the training, but the other parts are essential to get to the point where the form is applicable for fighting.

If you want to short-cut the process (ala the interstate) then you forget about the form and all the work that goes into learning, performing and perfecting that form, and just take individual moves and drill them. You don't worry about practicing a form for cardio, balance, strength etc., you just weight-train, run, jump rope, do heavy bag work etc. (Which you should do as part of your form work also). Form work also requires stance work (which isn't typically a part of the "interstate" training although there are probably examples out there where an MMA guy does stance training as part of his regime).

In short, if you are going to get to the same place fighting-wise with forms, you have to do other the other things as well as the form work. It takes longer to get there, because forms work is less efficient then modern training, but I think its more aesthetic as well. You have less time to train in other ways when you focus on forms, so you have to make your forms work for you.

[MasterKiller]

If you still have to 1) drill individual movements, 2) lift and do extra cardio, and 3) do heavy bag work to make the forms work, the form probably isn't what got you there in the first place...

[Judge Pen]

If you still have to 1) drill individual movements, 2) lift and do extra cardio, and 3) do heavy bag work to make the forms work, the form probably isn't what got you there in the first place... It's a matter of perspective isn't it? The form is the key to the movement where you pull out the technique to drill. The form should be the backbone to the cardio and strength training as well, but cross raining should also be done. Heavy bag training is essential in helping condition your strikes. Even most traditional schools have striking pads as part of their training. Forms work takes away time for other training methods, so it is less effecient, but you can get there and still train your forms--hence the winding road vs. the interstate.

[MasterKiller]

Isn't it pretty to think so?

[tattooedmonk]

Isn't it pretty to think so?Forms for forms sake is retarded. The forms are a catalog of techniques and were never meant to be taught and practiced the way they are in most TMA schools.Finding the meaning withinside them is enlightening. I am not talking about the applications that are supposed to work, I am talking about the ones that do. Within the range of motion within any movement are hidden applications. It takes a true master to understand them. And if taught properly it does not take years, it takes months to have the neccesary skills to defend yourself. It sounds like you were never taught how forms really work.

[tattooedmonk]

Kung Fu forms are an awesome way to keep yourself flexible and conditioned. That was their original purpose, anyway.
So there is nothing martial applicable in forms??

[Yao Sing]

I really don't follow why so many make a big deal out of forms. It's agreed all around that they aren't required to learn to fight so if you don't like them or don't think they're useful then don't do them. If you think they help then keep practicing them.

I don't see how a personal belief/preference bothers others so much. Why should any of you care if I, or anyone else, use forms to help with fighting? Does it affect your training any?

Personally I think they're fun to do, can be done anytime anywhere with no need for equipment or a training partner. They break up the monotony of weight lifting and running etc. which I find very boring. I prefer working out with a partner but don't have one so I guess all I can do is "pretend".

What are you doing when hitting a heavy bag? Do you "pretend" you're hitting someone? Would it bother anyone if I followed the same pattern of moves when I work the bag? Maybe a couple of different sequences I use over and over?

Mix them up randomly sometimes if I'm in the mood to practice that way otherwise just go out and follow one of my routines when I'm tired but still want to get in the practice.

I mean what's the big deal?

[MasterKiller]

So there is nothing martial applicable in forms??

On the contrary, there is a lot of martial technique within a form. There is also a lot of stretching, a lot of isometrics, a lot of balancing, and a lot of kinesthetic awareness training built into them (the good ones, at least).

Knowing exactly what is what is the key.

In 1610 they didn't know about circuit training, or have a Gold's Gym on the corner. Most of the routine exercise stuff was built into forms to help develop fighters that were better conditioned than the average Cho.

[Eternal Student]

On the contrary, there is a lot of martial technique within a form. There is also a lot of stretching, a lot of isometrics, a lot of balancing, and a lot of kinesthetic awareness training built into them (the good ones, at least).

Knowing exactly what is what is the key.

Exactly. That is why it is so imperative, IMHO, for an instructor to also show the applications that are in the form. Otherwise it turns into an interperative dance...:D

[tattooedmonk]

On the contrary, there is a lot of martial technique within a form. There is also a lot of stretching, a lot of isometrics, a lot of balancing, and a lot of kinesthetic awareness training built into them (the good ones, at least).

Knowing exactly what is what is the key.

In 1610 they didn't know about circuit training, or have a Gold's Gym on the corner. Most of the routine exercise stuff was built into forms to help develop fighters that were better conditioned than the average Cho.Fair enough.

[Judge Pen]

Isn't it pretty to think so?

Yes it is. Forms are another tool; some find them useful and some do not. The real root of the problem is that many people only train in forms and do not do the drilling/resistance work with the techniques in the forms.

If I'm conditioning properly, drilling properly, working with resistance properly and training my forms properly then I should be at lease equal to the typical martial artist that is only conditioning, drilling, and working with resistance.

[MasterKiller]

If I'm conditioning properly, drilling properly, working with resistance properly and training my forms properly then I should be at lease equal to the typical martial artist that is only conditioning, drilling, and working with resistance.

LOL. Yes, you should. But if that's the case, couldn't you eliminate the forms and still be equal?

And if that's the case, how much of your form work directly translates to combat ability?

[MasterKiller]

Exactly. That is why it is so imperative, IMHO, for an instructor to also show the applications that are in the form. Otherwise it turns into an interperative dance...:D

Only if the application is an ACTUAL application. Showing someone the combat application of a move that was originally included to stretch your hamstrings really just messes things up.

Overly extended form movements are usually either a throw or just an exercise, but a lot of teachers just make sh1t up. Oh, that's a Shaolin Double Wedgie kick...

[Eternal Student]

Only if the application is an ACTUAL application. Showing someone the combat application of a move that was originally included to stretch your hamstrings really just messes things up.

True enough.

[Yao Sing]

Oh, that's a Shaolin Double Wedgie kick...

No, it's a block. That's the standard reply if you don't know the app. Notice how many moves are blocks? Ties in with the "defensive only" explanation of styles. :D

[Judge Pen]

LOL. Yes, you should. But if that's the case, couldn't you eliminate the forms and still be equal?

And if that's the case, how much of your form work directly translates to combat ability?

Sure, but that wouldn't be any fun. Forms are fun. They focus you, help improve stamina, balance, flexibility etc. They are meditative. They help keep you centered with the romantic notions that many of us hold dear and are why we started training in CMA in the first place.

And they are not useless. There are just more efficient ways to introduce new technique and to catalogue all technique, but they are not as interesting IMO. Formless martial arts simply introduce the technique individually through various drills. Forms based martial arts use the for to introduce the technique and then pull the drills from them

Forms should be trained in a way that translate into ability. Otherwise you are just dancing. But it reaches a point that you only train forms because you enjoy them not because you need to do them to be a good fighter. I can take 10 forms that I know and have enough material to train to fight effectively for the rest of my life. (If I train properly). All he techniques that I need are there. But I learn more forms because I like variety over monotony. The drills out of the form are the same, but the form has a different flow and feeling that keeps one interested and rejuvenated. If I'm motivated, then I'll train harder and be a better fighter.

[tattooedmonk]

LOL. Yes, you should. But if that's the case, couldn't you eliminate the forms and still be equal?

And if that's the case, how much of your form work directly translates to combat ability? Yes they can be but why ??

100% .

If you know how to analize , breakdown and apply them they are great sources of info. but if you do not how to ,it is better not to practice/ teach them at all . Forms training is multi-purpose and has direct and indirect applicability If it is a technique used for conditioning and you try to make up some SH!T up and say here is how it is applied martially, then there are problems. They give you whole catalog of techniques to take from and apply, that is why we use them and keep them. Don't assume just because that is what most schools do that this is what we do too. :D Personally I do not teach the forms until all of the conditioning/ techniques within it are learned, remembered, and taught/ learned how to be applied.

[kwaichang]

This is amazing . I just read the various articles typed here about forms and have come to the conclusion and understanding that none of you even considered the Psychological concepts of combat that forms address. Many of the things forms do are directly related to combat : Endurance strength coordination etc etc. So why not do them they do help to make you a better fighter. Most who do not believe forms work lack the patience or time to put toward them to truly understand the inner workings of the ones learned. I personally think forms can make you a better fighter and I feel the "interstate method" is short lived. KC

[Citong Shifu]

This is amazing . I just read the various articles typed here about forms and have come to the conclusion and understanding that none of you even considered the Psychological concepts of combat that forms address. Many of the things forms do are directly related to combat : Endurance strength coordination etc etc. So why not do them they do help to make you a better fighter. Most who do not believe forms work lack the patience or time to put toward them to truly understand the inner workings of the ones learned. I personally think forms can make you a better fighter and I feel the "interstate method" is short lived. KC

Kwaichang / JP, this sin't directed towards either one of you.

I find this discussion on forms training very fundamental. Bottom line, if its such a waste of time, there's really no reason to discuss it, right. We dont want to "waste our time" talking about somthing thats a "waste of time".

This debate is by far one of the oldest.... Lift weights, jump rope, wrestle, box, run, etc, get good and kick some butt! I'm sticking with my "forms", drills, applications, power training, etc....

Have fun & play fair :cool:.
CS

[BentMonk]

IMO forms, drills, workouts, etc. are all useful tools for building a martial artist. How the tools are used is up to the architect, and depends on what he wants to build. Like art, rather one builder's project is better than another is largely a matter of opinion.

But to get us back on topic...

Shaolin Do Is For Real!!! :D

[Judge Pen]

Kwaichang / JP, this sin't directed towards either one of you.

I find this discussion on forms training very fundamental. Bottom line, if its such a waste of time, there's really no reason to discuss it, right. We dont want to "waste our time" talking about somthing thats a "waste of time".

This debate is by far one of the oldest.... Lift weights, jump rope, wrestle, box, run, etc, get good and kick some butt! I'm sticking with my "forms", drills, applications, power training, etc....

Have fun & play fair :cool:.
CS

Do it all if it helps you and you find value in it.

At least the SD crowd and some of the SD crowd can agree on something! :D

[MasterKiller]

This is amazing . I just read the various articles typed here about forms and have come to the conclusion and understanding that none of you even considered the Psychological concepts of combat that forms address. Many of the things forms do are directly related to combat : Endurance strength coordination etc etc. So why not do them they do help to make you a better fighter.
The only thing that psychologically prepares you for a fight is being pressure tested while sparring. Being repeadetly put in a situation over and over again conditions your responses so you don't panic.

Forms are the WORST way to emotionally prepare someone for getting hit.

Like Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get hit.


Most who do not believe forms work lack the patience or time to put toward them to truly understand the inner workings of the ones learned. I personally think forms can make you a better fighter and I feel the "interstate method" is short lived. KC I've been doing the same 10 forms for 10 years. I don't have the luxury of 275 other forms to practice when I get bored with these...;)

[Judge Pen]

I've been doing the same 10 forms for 10 years. I don't have the luxury of 275 other forms to practice when I get bored with these...;)

Quit exagerating. I only have about 175 forms! :p

So do you still practice your 10 forms? Why?

[MasterKiller]

Quit exagerating. I only have about 175 forms! :p

So do you still practice your 10 forms? Why?

I think it's kind of like a bad marriage. I invested so much time in them that I think it would be a shame to just walk away. :p

Honestly, though, I just like to maintain the tradition.

[Judge Pen]

I think it's kind of like a bad marriage. I invested so much time in them that I think it would be a shame to just walk away. :p

Honestly, though, I just like to maintain the tradition.

If I recall when you first started to break away from your Longfist teacher and work with the MMA people, you thought your striking skills from TCMA training translated well to sparring. Do you still feel that way?

[Citong Shifu]

The only thing that psychologically prepares you for a fight is being pressure tested while sparring. Being repeadetly put in a situation over and over again conditions your responses so you don't panic.

Forms are the WORST way to emotionally prepare someone for getting hit.

Like Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get hit.

I've been doing the same 10 forms for 10 years. I don't have the luxury of 275 other forms to practice when I get bored with these...;)


I dont think forms prepare you mentally for self-defense/fight in the related context of actually throwing down with another person. However, I do believe they prepare you mentally in the context of confidence, self-improvement, health & fitness, etc (footwork, speed, power, endurance, intention, fitness, etc). Think about it, if one has no confidence, the fights over... I know some people that are really dedicated to the martial arts, but their lack of confidence in the executuion of their movements keeps them down & out. Those who can move with high skill without being in a threatening situation will abviously be able to move and defend themselves when such a situation arises...

Too many get good right now mind sets out there today.... Take your time, you'll get there when your ready to be there......

CS

[MasterKiller]

If I recall when you first started to break away from your Longfist teacher and work with the MMA people, you thought your striking skills from TCMA training translated well to sparring. Do you still feel that way?

Yes. Longfist translated very well into a sport-striking environment for me. I really didn't have to modify much (except for dropping the CMA roundhouse in favor of the Muay Thai kick). When I teach class, I even use the CMA terms for stances and such. I'm actually very pro-CMA (I was even bringing fighters to Taiji Legacy this year), but I think it's time to move out of the 17th century.

Not everyone who signs up for classes has 10 years to get good. I use the modern methods I learned from my MMA coaches and LKFMDC because I've seen how regular people can acquire decent skill in a short amount of time using those methods.

Honestly, if you saw how well LKFMDC's regular, run-of-the-mill, non-competing, students can fight, I think it would open a lot of eyes.

[Judge Pen]

Yes. Longfist translated very well into a sport-striking environment for me. I really didn't have to modify much (except for dropping the CMA roundhouse in favor of the Muay Thai kick). Good, so your forms based training wasn't useless then.When I teach class, I even use the CMA terms for stances and such. I'm actually very pro-CMA (I was even bringing fighters to Taiji Legacy this year), but I think it's time to move out of the 17th century. But yet you still practice forms for the tradition of it if for nothing else

Not everyone who signs up for classes has 10 years to get good. I use the modern methods I learned from my MMA coaches and LKFMDC because I've seen how regular people can acquire decent skill in a short amount of time using those methods. Sounds a lot like my interstate vs. country road analogy

Honestly, if you saw how well LKFMDC's regular, run-of-the-mill, non-competing, students can fight, I think it would open a lot of eyes. I have no doubt. I've never questioned the utility of "modern training methods." I am just not willing to throw out traditional methods for those that enjoy training forms also.


Comments in bold above.

[MasterKiller]

Good, so your forms based training wasn't useless then Useless, no. But I have no doubt my skill level would be vastly greater if I trained then like I train now.

My students are certainly far better fighters than I was after 1 year.


But yet you still practice forms for the tradition of it if for nothing else Right. But this original discussion was on how forms related to fighting, not tradition.


Sounds a lot like my interstate vs. country road analogy The implication of your analogy is that at some point skill levels will be equal using either method. I disagree.


eyes. I have no doubt. I've never questioned the utility of "modern training methods." I am just not willing to throw out traditional methods for those that enjoy training forms also. I'm not trying to convince you to stop doing them. Like I said, the original argument was on the value forms provide for fighting technique.

[Judge Pen]

Fair enough. I think the problem is when people only train in forms and do not drill the underlying techinque or work against live resistance. (I don't get to do it enough myself, but the good things about forms is that you can practice them solo until you have a good training partner again). I think if you do all three, then you will get to the same place as if you leave the forms out of the equation.

You said youself that not everyone has 10 years to get there and that your students are better after one year then you were after one year. My original proposition agreed with both of those concepts.

[mkriii]

Just wondering how many forms are required for black belt in SD? And what is the average amount of moves in each form? Just trying to compare the forms in SD to the forms I learned from my teacher. I learned 7 empty hand forms (tiger, snake, crane, leopard, dragon, long fist, gung li) and 3 weapon forms (staff, broadsword, whip chain) for my black sash. I also learned for second level black sash monkey fist, a second tiger form, mantis form, five animal plus lohan form, and a tiger/crane.

[kwaichang]

Per your statements you havent an inkling of what I am talking about when I say Psychological concepts of the forms. BTW you can train until dooms day and still not be a good fighter it isnt the training method as much as it is the individual. You quoted Mike Tyson when you said " every one has a plan until they get hit" that said if you are a MMA trained fighter and cant take a punch are you a bad fighter and your training method doesnt mean @#$#. So as I said and have experienced in my training if you train forms correctly with all the associated "traditional methods" and apply some progressive training principles you can be just as good a fighter by training forms as you can training MMA principles etc. It is the individual not the method. KC

[MasterKiller]

KC, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[kwaichang]

What is it about mm that makes it superior to traditional training ? If we discuss the differences then we can come to a consensus of what needs to be done to promote harmony KC:)

[BentMonk]

I think the root of the forms vs. drills argument comes from the fact that many MA schools do not train heavily with fully resisting opponents. Traditional training methods do include "live" training. Unfortunately, not everyone does it. As I've said, it's all just another tool in the box, but IMO if you do not train live and with contact in addition to what ever else you do, you will not be as effective a fighter as you had hoped.

[Judge Pen]

I think the root of the forms vs. drills argument comes from the fact that many MA schools do not train heavily with fully resisting opponents. Traditional training methods do include "live" training. Unfortunately, not everyone does it. As I've said, it's all just another tool in the box, but IMO if you do not train live and with contact in addition to what ever else you do, you will not be as effective a fighter as you had hoped.

You knocked that one out of the park! The thing is that many traditional schools that train in forms do not want to admit to themselves that they do not do the underlying "live" training as often as they should.

[Judge Pen]

What is it about mm that makes it superior to traditional training ? If we discuss the differences then we can come to a consensus of what needs to be done to promote harmony KC:) Superior isn't the right word. If traditional training methods are done correctly, then MMA training is not superior (many disagree, but that's my opinion). Traditional training methods take longer because the form is the foundation for the introduction of technique which is on top of the drilling and live training. MMA discards the form work and just conditions, drills and does very intensive live training. As you've correctly said, it's up to the individual to determine who is the better fighter (it's not how hard you can hit, its how hard you can get hit and keep coming). Heart is always the wild-card.

[kwaichang]

So as Jack Burton says "its all in the reflexes Wang"
I once knew this guy who taught MA in the 70's he thought by getting hit it was easier to "learn " to take a punch, Since taking punishment seems to be a criteria when you talk about LIVE training then do you agree with this.
Also my boxing coach said you can take more and give more back if you are in condition. With this said Conditioning equals the ability to take a punch and come back. Why then are forms not as effective as say wind sprints or jumping rope etc to achieve that level of cond.
Timing is not being discussed at this time since timing is dependent upon your speed and awareness and their lack of same. KC

[MasterKiller]

KC,
I believe you are correct in that proper conditioning is the real key. The more conditioned you are, the more punishment you can take (and give). I have seen great increases in both mine and my students conditioning levels using Tabata and HIIT drills after sparring every night.

200 years ago, forms were the best known way to condition. Now, we have better alternatives.

I popped a rib in Jan. and was unable to train (or sleep, for that matter). Once it healed enough, I started running to keep my weight down. I never run. I hate it. But the first night I did 3 miles and could have kept going. Doing HIIT routines a few times a week, imo, is more valuable to a combat athelete than hours of road work.

I also prefer kettlebells to traditional weights and can see why Stone Locks were a common Kung Fu training utensil.

[kwaichang]

What we are talking here is Sport Specificity as Bruce Lee said if you want to learn how to kick , Kick KC

[Citong Shifu]

Superior isn't the right word. If traditional training methods are done correctly, then MMA training is not superior (many disagree, but that's my opinion). Traditional training methods take longer because the form is the foundation for the introduction of technique which is on top of the drilling and live training. MMA discards the form work and just conditions, drills and does very intensive live training. As you've correctly said, it's up to the individual to determine who is the better fighter (it's not how hard you can hit, its how hard you can get hit and keep coming). Heart is always the wild-card.

Its like that recent fight, Cung Le vs. Shamrock :eek:. Traditional CMA/Sanshou vs. mma....

Feel free to dispute the facts, but they are what they are...

Take care...
CS

[MasterKiller]

Its like that recent fight, Cung Le vs. Shamrock :eek:. Traditional CMA/Sanshou vs. mma....

Feel free to dispute the facts, but they are what they are...

Take care...
CS

LOL. If you think Cung Le trains the 'traditonal' way, you are sadly mistaken.

[mkriii]

it's not how hard you can hit, its how hard you can get hit and keep coming.

Now that sounds like the line right out of the newest Sylvester Stallone (Rocky) movie. He was always saying this throughout the whole movie. Next you'll be saying "Get up you bum" like Mickey said in the other Rocky movie (Rocky II).

[Citong Shifu]

LOL. If you think Cung Le trains the 'traditonal' way, you are sadly mistaken.


Without a doubt, lol... Take a look at his background, it was all traditional. Later he did a lil wrestling in high school, then some boxing etc, but all in all, he comes from a long line of traditional training and methods, lol... Its funny, you would discredit the facts though....

Oh, let me add this, he is doing some JJ now, lol....

Ask Cung what his background is, lol.... Dont take away the man's hard work... He made many statements about how is traditional background has gotten him where he is today...

Wow,

CS

[Old Noob]

LOL. If you think Cung Le trains the 'traditonal' way, you are sadly mistaken.

MK is probably correct about Cung Le's training regime, but the fact remains that Cung Le broke Shamrock's arm with a roundhouse kick, one of the most basic kicks in any MA system. Arguably, any stylist who practices enough of that type of kick could throw it with the same force/velocity. My teacher always says (and I think he's quoting someone relatively famous) that he doesn't fear the guy who does 10,000 different kicks once but rather the guy who does one kind of kick 10,000 times.:D

[SDJerry]

So as Jack Burton says "its all in the reflexes Wang"
I once knew this guy who taught MA in the 70's he thought by getting hit it was easier to "learn " to take a punch, Since taking punishment seems to be a criteria when you talk about LIVE training then do you agree with this.
Also my boxing coach said you can take more and give more back if you are in condition. With this said Conditioning equals the ability to take a punch and come back. Why then are forms not as effective as say wind sprints or jumping rope etc to achieve that level of cond.
Timing is not being discussed at this time since timing is dependent upon your speed and awareness and their lack of same. KC

Being able to take a punch is all about heart. Most people stop far short of what they are capable of. Everyone feels pain when they get hit but good fighters can stay focused and eat that pain instead of quitting.

Forms and conditioning help strengthen the mind. I like kettlebells myself and it really takes something to keep snatching that bell when your grip is going out, your legs are tired, and your forearm feels like it's going to fall off. That same drive is what will keep you tucking your chin and driving forward when someone gets one in on ya.

[MasterKiller]

Without a doubt, lol... Take a look at his background, it was all traditional. Later he did a lil wrestling in high school, then some boxing etc, but all in all, he comes from a long line of traditional training and methods, lol... Its funny, you would discredit the facts though....

Oh, let me add this, he is doing some JJ now, lol....

Ask Cung what his background is, lol.... Dont take away the man's hard work... He made many statements about how is traditional background has gotten him where he is today...

Wow,

CS

A little wrestling? LOL.

CS, you are severly misguided and apparently have no idea what modern sport atheletes do to train for fights.

I know where he came from, but I also know how he trains NOW.

You think he's standing in horse stance and running through forms for his belt defense?

[MasterKiller]

MK is probably correct about Cung Le's training regime, but the fact remains that Cung Le broke Shamrock's arm with a roundhouse kick, one of the most basic kicks in any MA system.

He broke it with a MT roundhouse, not a CMA-style roundhouse. The roundhouse is not really the same kick in every system.


Arguably, any stylist who practices enough of that type of kick could throw it with the same force/velocity. My teacher always says (and I think he's quoting someone relatively famous) that he doesn't fear the guy who does 10,000 different kicks once but rather the guy who does one kind of kick 10,000 times.:D
Yeah, if it's trained properly. Which is my argument anyway. Traditional techniques are most effective when trained with modern methods.

Cung kicks a sh1t load of MT pads and heavy bags. I doubt he does much Crane Stepping or Forms work.

[Baqualin]

He broke it with a MT roundhouse, not a CMA-style roundhouse. The roundhouse is not really the same kick in every system.

As a side note, I believe the roundhouse we're taught in SD is close to (if not the same) the MT roundhouse



Cung kicks a sh1t load of MT pads and heavy bags. I doubt he does much Crane Stepping or Forms work.




fghaptuhrgugieob

[MasterKiller]

As a side note, I believe the roundhouse we're taught in SD is close to (if not the same) the MT roundhouse

If so, good. It does a lot more damage than a typical CMA roundhouse. The main disadvantage is that you compromise some balance, but the added power and resulting damage (especially to the limbs) more than makes up for it.

You might want to check youtube, though. The kick is not something you would see in a lot of forms, just because of the mechanics.

Incidentally, you SHOULD NOT block this kick with hand slaps and deflections, which is a common CMA tactic against the CMA roundhouse. It will break your arm if you extend, and even blocking it correctly by shielding can result in a break, too (ala Shamrock).

[Eternal Student]

If so, good. It does a lot more damage than a typical CMA roundhouse. The main disadvantage is that you compromise some balance, but the added power and resulting damage (especially to the limbs) more than makes up for it.

You might want to check youtube, though. The kick is not something you would see in a lot of forms, just because of the mechanics.

Incidentally, you CANNOT block this kick with hand slaps and deflections, which is a common CMA tactic against the CMA roundhouse. It will break your arm if you extend, and even blocking it correctly by shielding can result in a break, too (ala Shamrock).

I too prefer this kick over the one I was originally taught. I guess my toes are not as flexible as others, and I was prone to jamming them, trying to hit with the ball of my foot. So I went to throwing it MT style, with the shin. Now I just need to work on getting those suckers higher...:)

[Old Noob]

fghaptuhrgugieob

I didn't mean to get hung up on semantics (the guys on the Cung Le vs. Frank Shamrock thread often called it a "side-kick") as much as I wanted to make the point that Cung Le won the match with a fairly basic kick, which he just happens to execute with ridiculous speed and force.

I don't think we're really disagreeing anyway. Repetition is the key and you can get that repetition via forms, drills, and sparring. Of course, you can get the repetition via drills and sparring only as well, but those who are espousing forms practice probably gain additional benefits from the forms in the long run that they don't get from the other two only.

Again, I'm an admitted newbie but it seems that the best long-term training regime would include ample amounts of all three methodologies.

[Old Noob]

If so, good. It does a lot more damage than a typical CMA roundhouse. The main disadvantage is that you compromise some balance, but the added power and resulting damage (especially to the limbs) more than makes up for it.

You might want to check youtube, though. The kick is not something you would see in a lot of forms, just because of the mechanics.

Incidentally, you SHOULD NOT block this kick with hand slaps and deflections, which is a common CMA tactic against the CMA roundhouse. It will break your arm if you extend, and even blocking it correctly by shielding can result in a break, too (ala Shamrock).

Too true! To me, part of the beauty of that win was that Cung Le won on a shot that was actually defensed by Shamrock. The strike just completely crushed the block. Awesome!

[MasterKiller]

I didn't mean to get hung up on semantics (the guys on the Cung Le vs. Frank Shamrock thread often called it a "side-kick") as much as I wanted to make the point that Cung Le won the match with a fairly basic kick, which he just happens to execute with ridiculous speed and force. The side-kick is not the same as the roundhouse. Two different kicks. Cung has a tremendous side kick, which is a Chinese kick you really only see (competively) in San Shou.


Again, I'm an admitted newbie but it seems that the best long-term training regime would include ample amounts of all three methodologies.
It depends on your goals, admittedly. If you want to be a fighter, dropping the forms would be a good idea because they are inefficient and require a lot of training time.

For what it's worth, my Sigung's teacher told a reporter once that Kung Fu is about three things: healing the body, strengthening the body, and protecting the body.;)

I'm speaking about pure fighting ability here.

[themeecer]

For what it's worth, my Sigung's teacher told a reporter once that Kung Fu is about three things: healing the body, strengthening the body, and protecting the body.;)

I'm speaking about pure fighting ability here.
Great stuff MK! I'm totally going to steal that saying.

Now I am going to go perform some kung fu on the grass in my yard. Got to love those zero turn mowers.

[Eternal Student]

For what it's worth, my Sigung's teacher told a reporter once that Kung Fu is about three things: healing the body, strengthening the body, and protecting the body.;)

I'm speaking about pure fighting ability here.

Absolutely!! Everyone has their reasons for doing a martial arts, and they are no more worthy than others. At my school, we have class days that are totally devoted to more modern conditioning sets. They are totally optional, and I personally don't think anything less of those who choose not to go. It is not for everyone, but it has definitely helped me. I still do forms, but I also crank out the tabata sets, drills, ect. I love/hate my instructor on those days...

[Judge Pen]

The side-kick is not the same as the roundhouse. Two different kicks. Cung has a tremendous side kick, which is a Chinese kick you really only see (competively) in San Shou.


It depends on your goals, admittedly. If you want to be a fighter, dropping the forms would be a good idea because they are inefficient and require a lot of training time.

For what it's worth, my Sigung's teacher told a reporter once that Kung Fu is about three things: healing the body, strengthening the body, and protecting the body.;)

I'm speaking about pure fighting ability here.
I don't really think that anyone is disagreeing with this. Forms are inerricient and require a lot of training time. But If trained right you can get to the same place it will just take you longer to get there.

Your background is longfist, right? On my Saturday classes, we usually do our 4 books of hua after some intense sparring. For me, doing one book of Hua is akin to sprinting 1/4 mile. 4 books together is like sprinting 2 miles (multiplyer effect). It really takes it out of you. Doing it after sparring is similar to doing the HIIT excercises after sparring for you. It's pushing your body after it has already been fatigued. It's what is going to really make you stonger.

Forms are part of chinese martial arts. If you want to be a good fighter in the chinese martial arts then you need to find a way to make the forms work for you. If not, then you may be a helluva fighter, but your not a helluva kung fu fighter.

[MasterKiller]

Forms are part of chinese martial arts. If you want to be a good fighter in the chinese martial arts then you need to find a way to make the forms work for you. If not, then you may be a helluva fighter, but your not a helluva kung fu fighter.


Kung Fu is Kick, Strike, Throw, Lock. Not forms. Some traditional styles don't even have forms, afterall. And San Da is most certainly kung fu.

Forms are the finger pointing at the moon, grasshopper...

[kwaichang]

Ok if you are going to quote MK at least keep the characters from the same movie/show. So riddle me this fighters shadow box that is a modern method what is the primary difference of shadow boxing and Forms. In other wors if you throw a thousand punches from a boxers orthodox stance do you get more or less cond effect than from a bow or Horse stance ?? KC your opinion?

[MasterKiller]

Ok if you are going to quote MK at least keep the characters from the same movie/show. So riddle me this fighters shadow box that is a modern method what is the primary difference of shadow boxing and Forms. In other wors if you throw a thousand punches from a boxers orthodox stance do you get more or less cond effect than from a bow or Horse stance ?? KC your opinion?

Besides shadow boxing being un-rehearsed, it basically the same thing, imo. But every place I've trained just used shadow-boxing as a warm-up/cool down. You don't spend years trying to perfect it.

As a side note, hitting a speed bag also takes a lot of freakin time to learn correctly, and I fail to see the actual benefit of using one, to tell you the truth, other than the shoulder workout.

[Judge Pen]

Kung Fu is Kick, Strike, Throw, Lock. Not forms. Some traditional styles don't even have forms, afterall. And San Da is most certainly kung fu.

Forms are the finger pointing at the moon, grasshopper...

Many styles kick, strike, throw and lock. Many styles do forms. Most TCMA styles do forms. Therefore, forms that contin techniques that kick, strike, throw and lock are part of kung fu.

An MMA guy that considers himself "freestyle" etc. trains to kick, strike, throw and lock, but that doesn't mean he's doing a Chinese Martial Art.

[MasterKiller]

Many styles kick, strike, throw and lock. Many styles do forms. Most TCMA styles do forms. Therefore, forms that contin techniques that kick, strike, throw and lock are part of kung fu.

An MMA guy that considers himself "freestyle" etc. trains to kick, strike, throw and lock, but that doesn't mean he's doing a Chinese Martial Art.

SURELY your concept of CMA isn't so limited you can't accept principles, strategies, and techniques can exist outside of form???

C'mon, JP.

If you practice all your techniques without form for the rest of your life, are you saying you are all the sudden not a Kung Fu man?

If your nephew was getting picked on in school and wanted to learn how to protect himself, would you make him learn a form first???

Couldn't you teach someone to fight like a Kung Fu fighter without showing them a single form?

[Eternal Student]

SURELY your concept of CMA isn't so limited you can't accept principles, strategies, and techniques can exist outside of form???

C'mon, JP.

If you practice all your techniques without form for the rest of your life, are you saying you are all the sudden not a Kung Fu man?

Couldn't you teach someone to fight like a Kung Fu fighter without showing them a single form?

But forms are what defines and separates each martial arts. Without this defining item, how would we say, "he is a Kung Fu man"?

[MasterKiller]

But forms are what defines and separates each martial arts. Without this defining item, how would we say, "he is a Kung Fu man"?

When two people fight, can you not see differences in their strategies and techniques?

Can you watch this and, barring the clothes, tell which is the Muay Thai and which is the TKD fighter?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbrYiy3Xe_A

[Judge Pen]

SURELY your concept of CMA isn't so limited you can't accept principles, strategies, and techniques can exist outside of form???

C'mon, JP.

If you practice all your techniques without form for the rest of your life, are you saying you are all the sudden not a Kung Fu man?

Couldn't you teach someone to fight like a Kung Fu fighter without showing them a single form?

Of course principles exist outside of form, but to be a fighter that trains in TCMA (at least most styles) then the form is part of it. It is the tool that was developed to catalouge techniques. It is part of the "flavor" that makes TCMA unique.

Let me put it this way, many people argue that certain styles claiming to be TCMA do not have that certain TCMA flavor. Now I'm sure that the technique in those forms kick, strike, throw and lock. But does that make them CMA? :D

But, to be fair to your question, I suppose you could teach someone to fight like a "Kung Fu fighter" without teaching them forms, but that's not what "modern training methods" do. In order for someone to learn to fight like a kung fu fighter, there would have to be training in the footwork and stances that make CMA unique and how that footwork translates into application against a live opponent.

Adam Hsu had an article about that in KFM a few years ago. I wonder if I can find a link to it.

[Judge Pen]

When two people fight, can you not see differences in their strategies and techniques?

Can you watch this and, barring the clothes, tell which is the Muay Thai and which is the TKD fighter?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbrYiy3Xe_A


But TKD has forms and I'm sure he knows a few of them. Heck even traditional Muay Thai has forms.

[MasterKiller]

But, to be fair to your question, I suppose you could teach someone to fight like a "Kung Fu fighter" without teaching them forms, but that's not what "modern training methods" do.. Says who? That's what I try to do. I talk about Tiger-Swallow stances and horse stances in class, but everyone agrees that static training postures and their application are not anywhere near the same thing.

It's for sure what LKFMDC does. Guys like Rudi Ott and Cung Le are teaching San Shou to kids, which certainly is not the same as teaching them Muay Thai.

I'm fixing to leave work, so I'll address the flavor issue in the morning.

[Eternal Student]

When two people fight, can you not see differences in their strategies and techniques?

Can you watch this and, barring the clothes, tell which is the Muay Thai and which is the TKD fighter?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbrYiy3Xe_A
Well, in my admittedly limited experience, the stance of the Muay Thai fighter is different then the TKD gent. The kicking was different. I would expect the MT guy to throw more punches.
Right now I am really into studying Hsing-I, and I try to bring as many of the principles of the style as I can into sparring. And I have had people at tournaments that I do not know comment on it. I believe it is due to me working on my Hsing-I forms.

[Judge Pen]

Says who? That's what I try to do. I talk about Tiger-Swallow stances and horse stances in class, but everyone agrees that static training postures and their application are not anywhere near the same thing.

It's for sure what LKFMDC does. Guys like Rudi Ott and Cung Le are teaching San Shou to kids, which certainly is not the same as teaching them Muay Thai.

I'm fixing to leave work, so I'll address the flavor issue in the morning.

Stance work is not static, its the relationship between two or more stances that develop a certain flavor to a technique's application. At least according to the article by Adam Hsu.

If you are being true to the flavor and concepts of TCMA while trying to make the training more efficeint by using modern principals, then great. More power to you. Seriously, I know you have nothing but the best intentions. I just am not willing to discard all of the tradition, flavor, history and aesthetics just because it is less effecient use of training time.

I respect what you are doing, but its aggravating for one to say that a person who dedicates a large portion of his training time practing forms cannot be as good a fighter who does not train forms. That's what you are saying, and I don't necessarily think its true.

But, then again, I can't point you to a professional fighter today that trains significantly in forms.

[Citong Shifu]

MK is probably correct about Cung Le's training regime, but the fact remains that Cung Le broke Shamrock's arm with a roundhouse kick, one of the most basic kicks in any MA system. Arguably, any stylist who practices enough of that type of kick could throw it with the same force/velocity. My teacher always says (and I think he's quoting someone relatively famous) that he doesn't fear the guy who does 10,000 different kicks once but rather the guy who does one kind of kick 10,000 times.:D

LOL, there's NO probably correct about it.... You dont measure a mans overall background by what he has incorporated within the last few years of his training...

[Baqualin]

Well, in my admittedly limited experience, the stance of the Muay Thai fighter is different then the TKD gent. The kicking was different. I would expect the MT guy to throw more punches.
Right now I am really into studying Hsing-I, and I try to bring as many of the principles of the style as I can into sparring. And I have had people at tournaments that I do not know comment on it. I believe it is due to me working on my Hsing-I forms.

It's kinda ironic regarding the MT roundhouse.....after looking at utube....that is the way we are taught and the ironic part of it is that this type of kick was one of the reasons that stopped SD in the very early years from competing in the outside tourney's (at that time mostly AKA types), they told our competitors that type of roundhouse kick wasn't allowed because it was deemed inaffective:eek:

Hsing I your training yourself to kill:cool:
BQ


Here's to MK, JP , KC, CTS, Eternal student, old noob and anybody I left out of this conversation... All of you are right, sometimes it just boils down to the road your seeking and what speed you want to travel :eek:

[Citong Shifu]

A little wrestling? LOL.

CS, you are severly misguided and apparently have no idea what modern sport atheletes do to train for fights.

I know where he came from, but I also know how he trains NOW.

You think he's standing in horse stance and running through forms for his belt defense?

Not at all! I'm sure he's incorporated more weight lifting techniques to keep his strength and endurance. Then again, I dont personally know him. Who kows what he's doing now compared to what he used to do????????

As far as wrestling now, he may very well do alot. I'm pretty sure he' works more on his stand up game (san shou/shuai jiao) than JJ... Once, staying strong to his traditional background.... Anyone can try and new training techniques, doesn't mean their prior training has no worth (life, combat, sport, etc).

[Citong Shifu]

He broke it with a MT roundhouse, not a CMA-style roundhouse. The roundhouse is not really the same kick in every system.


Yeah, if it's trained properly. Which is my argument anyway. Traditional techniques are most effective when trained with modern methods.

Cung kicks a sh1t load of MT pads and heavy bags. I doubt he does much Crane Stepping or Forms work.

Once again, incorrect. Not a MT roundhouse. The CMA or better yet TCMA has several roundhouse kicks, with the shin roundhouse (Bian Tui or whip kick) being one of them. As with using the toe, instep, & ball of foot for roundhouse techniques).

I like how mma always take credit for other peoples success and victories, like the CMA doesn't have submissions, throws, etc....

[Baqualin]

MK, don't give up on speed bag training.....it really helps with speed and timing while while really hitting an object (I like the headache bag the best). I went into a sparring class (after not sparring for years) and got my a$$ kicked (by some lower ranks) the first 2 classes....I went home and broke out the headache bag.....did Pa Kua and Hsing I until I thought I was going to die...next class I was kickin a$$ lower and higher ranks....the speed bag really helped me get my timing back......by the way FYI for Eternal student...I ended the class by getting my sh!t handed to me by a higher level master using Hsing I on me....took 3 months for my floating rib and sternum to heal.:)
BQ

[Baqualin]

Not at all! I'm sure he's incorporated more weight lifting techniques to keep his strength and endurance. Then again, I dont personally know him. Who kows what he's doing now compared to what he used to do????????

As far as wrestling now, he may very well do alot. I'm pretty sure he' works more on his stand up game (san shou/shuai jiao) than JJ... Once, staying strong to his traditional background.... Anyone can try and new training techniques, doesn't mean their prior training has no worth (life, combat, sport, etc).

True, any pro has to cross train in order to compete in todays competitions.......just to learn what's coming.....BJJ is not as effective (on it's own) as it was when it first became popular....the BJJ fighters are mixing more stand up skills into their art in order to stay on top.

[Eternal Student]

MK, don't give up on speed bag training.....it really helps with speed and timing while while really hitting an object (I like the headache bag the best). I went into a sparring class (after not sparring for years) and got my a$$ kicked (by some lower ranks) the first 2 classes....I went home and broke out the headache bag.....did Pa Kua and Hsing I until I thought I was going to die...next class I was kickin a$$ lower and higher ranks....the speed bag really helped me get my timing back......by the way FYI for Eternal student...I ended the class by getting my sh!t handed to me by a higher level master using Hsing I on me....took 3 months for my floating rib and sternum to heal.:)
BQ

Heh, yeah, I have to watch what I am doing. Technically I guess you can say that I am not doing true Hsing I, since I am not going out with the sole purpose of killing someone with extreme prejudice. But the style does fit my personality and fighting style. Direct and to the point. No messing around. I have enjoyed what I have learned so far. It has really improved my technique.

[kwaichang]

A long time ago I asked my Shotokan instructor how many stances there were in Karate he said in a Kata there are only 2 the one you start with and the one you end with I think it was called Heisoku dachi or just standing or natural stance. I said what about all the rest he said they dont really exist they are just transitory movements. No dead training there. KC:eek:

[kwaichang]

It seems to me those who talk against Forms for fighting make statements pertaining to The stances or odd punches or lack of contact etc. Or not against resisted opponents etc. So I ask if I put a bunch of techniques togethor that were effective in MMA matches wouldnt that be a Kata or form as well and would those techniques be just as effective?? Well I feel the techniques in forms are just that techniques strung togethor to convey an Idea or teachers preference. Then I guess all the MMA guys or modern training principle guys might change their minds KC

[MasterKiller]

LOL, there's NO probably correct about it.... You dont measure a mans overall background by what he has incorporated within the last few years of his training...

Last few years? He was a high school and collegiate wrestler. That's 8 years of wrestling. Oh brother!


I like how mma always take credit for other peoples success and victories, like the CMA doesn't have submissions, throws, etc....

Bro, 1999 called. I think you are stuck there.

By the way, this is the kick. You guys decide:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/pdf733/cung-le_frank-shamrock_b.gif

[MasterKiller]

Stance work is not static, its the relationship between two or more stances that develop a certain flavor to a technique's application. At least according to the article by Adam Hsu.

I like Adam Hsu, but who has he trained?

In one article, he said his dream was to take 10 years to train real kung fu fighters to use real kung fu. This guy runs a school? Is he saying his students don't use real kung fu? C'mon!

[Citong Shifu]

Last few years? He was a high school and collegiate wrestler. That's 8 years of wrestling. Oh brother!



Bro, 1999 called. I think you are stuck there.

By the way, this is the kick. You guys decide:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/pdf733/cung-le_frank-shamrock_b.gif

LOL, I'm not stuck anywhere, thats quite obvious. Cung Le is what he is, a sanshou fighter... As far as the kick clip, what, is everyone who kicks with there shin (roundhouse) using a MT technique, doubt it... Thats what I'm talking about. You have one art that uses a characteristic technique and all of a sudden, that art is the only art that trains it :confused:, everyone else is just using that particular movement, hmmmmmm. Just another reason why I like to stay out of conversations like these... Why, no matter what, modern day sport combat participants have it all figured out....

Take care.
CS

[yu shan]

Good point Ron, our lineage is from Taiwan and we are taught to kick with the shin. It really is a no brainer, the shin vs the foot?!

[Citong Shifu]

It seems to me those who talk against Forms for fighting make statements pertaining to The stances or odd punches or lack of contact etc. Or not against resisted opponents etc. So I ask if I put a bunch of techniques togethor that were effective in MMA matches wouldnt that be a Kata or form as well and would those techniques be just as effective?? Well I feel the techniques in forms are just that techniques strung togethor to convey an Idea or teachers preference. Then I guess all the MMA guys or modern training principle guys might change their minds KC

KC, I see where your going with this, but it seems that most dont understand that forms train many things. Lets just discuss your point. Forms in the context your discussing not only develop the countless traditional aspects, but allows one to train the various rules or principles of any given movement/technique ( basically teaching one to practice or execute the techniques correctly, etc). Once these movements are developed, they can be executed for any given situation, not necessarily in the order as there found in the form/s..... This is where most people get lost and misunderstand the use of forms training.... Anyway, I feel that this aspect of form training is fundamental. You can really tell alot about people when discussing these types of topic.

However, I understand where alot of the controversy comes from concerning this topic. Alot of CMA school hone in on there showmanship skills, lol... It seems like alot of school have taken out the "WU" or martial skills aspects of training... So, MK, I'm not disagreeing with everything your saying and can understand your feelings on this, but there are many other CMA schools out there that are stand up and ground/pound.... This is what we need to compare with mma, etc...

Take care
CS

[Citong Shifu]

Good point Ron, our lineage is from Taiwan and we are taught to kick with the shin. It really is a no brainer, the shin vs the foot?!

LOL, my lineage is quite simple - Front kick, well, we have front toe, front thrust, front heel, we train the all. However, in sparring or sanda were trained to use the front kick that is need at that time, whatever it would be, lol.... Same thing with roundhouse, which we call whip kick - shin, toe, instep, & ball of foot. Here again, we train them all, but in sparring/sanda, its whatever needed....

I would get into details on which is used and when, but I would want some compensation for that info, lol, thats like an online class... Dont want to let out all my "SECRETS", lol...

Oh, by the way, I got your message, but lost it... Give me a call when you have time..

CS

[Judge Pen]

I like Adam Hsu, but who has he trained?

In one article, he said his dream was to take 10 years to train real kung fu fighters to use real kung fu. This guy runs a school? Is he saying his students don't use real kung fu? C'mon!

What are you saying? That Adam Hsu isn't an accomplished instructor because he doesn't train pro fighters?

As for SD's roundhouse, I was taught both the "whip kick" as described with the shin/instep etc being the striking surface and a "snappier" roundhouse kick using the ball of the foot or the top of the foot as the striking surface. Because of my hip flexibility, the first kick was always easier for me to do.

[kwaichang]

I was trying to use the KISS method when talking about forms i can discuss it at a deeper level but from what i had read previously from some it would do no good to try. KC

[MasterKiller]

KC/JP,
Can you tell me which forms are being represented during sparring in this clip?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3i4Pg-JaZLI

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like Adam Hsu, but who has he trained?

In one article, he said his dream was to take 10 years to train real kung fu fighters to use real kung fu. This guy runs a school? Is he saying his students don't use real kung fu? C'mon!

If I recall, Adam said ( and I don't know what article you mean, so you could be right) in a seminar, it takes about a year to be able to use Kung fu, 3 years to use it well against most fighters and 10 years to "master" it.
I also recall way back when someone saying the "same" about BJJ...can't recall who...

[MasterKiller]

If I recall, Adam said ( and I don't know what article you mean, so you could be right) in a seminar, it takes about a year to be able to use Kung fu, 3 years to use it well against most fighters and 10 years to "master" it.
I also recall way back when someone saying the "same" about BJJ...can't recall who... No, that's not the article I'm talking about.

And of course, you can point to BJJ guys with 10 years of training and easily see what that means. Do you think the average 3-year CMA guy is on par with the average 3-year BJJ guy as far as practical and usable ability?

I mean, most CMA guys have a black sash after 3 years, and a BJJ guy may be a high blue by then. Who would you put your money on?


So, MK, I'm not disagreeing with everything your saying and can understand your feelings on this, but there are many other CMA schools out there that are stand up and ground/pound.... This is what we need to compare with mma, etc...
Ok. Let's compare them. Where/Who are they?

I can point to a couple right off the bat (Dave Lacey, the Pak Mei guys), but you say there are many, so I'm sure you can provide other examples.

Does your school ever fight?

Got any training clips from your Shaolin Sanda classes you can share?

[Judge Pen]

KC/JP,
Can you tell me which forms are being represented during sparring in this clip?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3i4Pg-JaZLI

I can see specific techinques from many forms, but I can't say that any of them are fighting exclusively from one form or another.

[MasterKiller]

I can see specific techinques from many forms, but I can't say that any of them are fighting exclusively from one form or another.

Why not? Why don't the fights look like the forms?

[Judge Pen]

Why not? Why don't the fights look like the forms?

Fights don't look like drills either. Or Shadow boxing. Forms, then drills, then free sparring--its a prgression.

Forms are for the introduction of technique. I wouldn't expect that a fight will look like the form, but the techniques used in the form are from the form that introduced the technique.

[kungfujunky]

mk come on man thats just silly

moves come from forms. you use forms to create muscle memory so when you spar.fight you just react and move

we dont do lo han fist forms during a fight

and you know that.


forms are a training tool that helps condition the mind and body with specific movements.

you then take movements FROM forms and put them into practical application during training i.e. sparring

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, that's not the article I'm talking about.

And of course, you can point to BJJ guys with 10 years of training and easily see what that means. Do you think the average 3-year CMA guy is on par with the average 3-year BJJ guy as far as practical and usable ability?

I mean, most CMA guys have a black sash after 3 years, and a BJJ guy may be a high blue by then. Who would you put your money on?

LOL, no, no comparison whatsoever.

[Judge Pen]

mk come on man thats just silly

moves come from forms. you use forms to create muscle memory so when you spar.fight you just react and move

we dont do lo han fist forms during a fight

and you know that.


forms are a training tool that helps condition the mind and body with specific movements.

you then take movements FROM forms and put them into practical application during training i.e. sparring

Of course MK knows that. He's trying to make the point that forms are not necessary ("Why not just do the drills then?"). And I've conceded the point that they are not to become a fighter. But I think that forms, when trained properly, can make you a better fighter. That one that trains form properly can become an equal or better fighter to those that do not see the benefit of forms.

[MasterKiller]

Fights don't look like drills either. Or Shadow boxing. Forms, then drills, then free sparring--its a prgression.

Forms are for the introduction of technique. I wouldn't expect that a fight will look like the form, but the techniques used in the form are from the form that introduced the technique.
If forms are for the introductionof the technique, when do you outgrow them?

[Judge Pen]

If forms are for the introductionof the technique, when do you outgrow them?

Outgrow them? What do you mean by "outgrow" them? You continue to train them like you continue to drill and like you continue to fight. You don't have to of course, but if it's the foundation for the technique, the fundamentals of how, in a perfect environment, you move when you kick, strike, lock or throw, then you always go back to the fundamentals. It should make your technique in an imperfect environment cleaner.

[MasterKiller]

Outgrow them? What do you mean by "outgrow" them? You continue to train them like you continue to drill and like you continue to fight. You don't have to of course, but if it's the foundation for the technique, the fundamentals of how, in a perfect environment, you move when you kick, strike, lock or throw, then you always go back to the fundamentals. It should make your technique in an imperfect environment cleaner.

If the purpose of Form is to introduce technique (which I agree with), I think there is a point when you progress far enough that Form is no longer useful.

If you wanted to write a book, you wouldn't start by reciting your ABCs again.

[Judge Pen]

If the purpose of Form is to introduce technique (which I agree with), I think there is a point when you progress far enough that Form is no longer useful.

If you wanted to write a book, you wouldn't start by reciting your ABCs again.

In formless martial arts, how do they introduce the technique? Drills for different punches, kicks, locks, throws, right? Do they outgrow the drills? Or do the drills get more difficult or advanced?

[Citong Shifu]

No, that's not the article I'm talking about.

And of course, you can point to BJJ guys with 10 years of training and easily see what that means. Do you think the average 3-year CMA guy is on par with the average 3-year BJJ guy as far as practical and usable ability?

I mean, most CMA guys have a black sash after 3 years, and a BJJ guy may be a high blue by then. Who would you put your money on?


Ok. Let's compare them. Where/Who are they?

I can point to a couple right off the bat (Dave Lacey, the Pak Mei guys), but you say there are many, so I'm sure you can provide other examples.

Does your school ever fight?

Got any training clips from your Shaolin Sanda classes you can share?

I dont know where all the schools are located, that was just a common sense statement. Yes we fight and I dont have any clips as of now. I am working on recording some footage that can be used online.... As soon as I get things downloaded I will work on posting them with youtyube... Do you have some clips of yourself readily available?

As far as a 3 year this and that, or 3 year black sash. One again, I cant agree with you... I dont know where your from or what schools you comparing, but good gosh, so misinformed....

Take care.
CS

[Citong Shifu]

I was trying to use the KISS method when talking about forms i can discuss it at a deeper level but from what i had read previously from some it would do no good to try. KC

I feel all your pain, lol.... This is a perfect example why most asian teachers "would not" teach their art to others. Everyone has it all figured out...

cs

[Citong Shifu]

Why not? Why don't the fights look like the forms?

Because, thats not what forms are all about.... Everyone see's the roundhouse shin kick in CMA, but call it a MT kick, etc.... Like I said, forms are just ways to practice combat moves, just as boxing shadow boxes....

[Citong Shifu]

If forms are for the introductionof the technique, when do you outgrow them?

There not out grown, simply understood.... Once understood. Well, thats speaks for itself....

[kwaichang]

Thanks MK you have posed some very interesting points " NOT". All you are trying to do is show a POINT Tourney and compare it to a "real" fight. It is not. and to compare a match with those who are sparring and those who are the form people not being the same people is unfair as well. But I will say that that was not a real fight. Also to compare a 3 year jujitsu person with a 3 year any thing is also stupid it is the person not the style. Muihammad Ali trained in Jhoon Rhee TKD and spoke highly of it. Does that mean all TKD is good no just what M Ali was doing at the time. I feel that the forms being taught today have the same tech application as those of old and it is useful and useable in a fight otherwise the forms would not exist today. KC

[MasterKiller]

I feel all your pain, lol.... This is a perfect example why most asian teachers "would not" teach their art to others. Everyone has it all figured out...

cs

:rolleyes:

And this is why CMA schools get no respect in fighting circles.

[MasterKiller]

All you are trying to do is show a POINT Tourney and compare it to a "real" fight. How would these guys move different in a real fight? Would their punches be different? Their kicks? Would they all the sudden drop down and do a crazy monkey form or something?

This is not a critique of your style, mind you. I am not pointing fingers. But these are advanced SD guys, so you guys should be familiar with the movement.


Also to compare a 3 year jujitsu person with a 3 year any thing is also stupid it is the person not the style. Wrong. It's the METHOD. The average 3-year BJJ guy will wipe the floor with the average 3-year CMA guy. This point has been proven over and over again, and it was why the UFC was started in the first place.

There are always a few guys who are just naturally talented and can win no matter what.


I feel that the forms being taught today have the same tech application as those of old and it is useful and useable in a fight otherwise the forms would not exist today. KC

Bro, I never said application was wrong. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH (most) CMA TECHNIQUES.

Let's get passed this idea and getting all hung up on what a kick is called. That's not my point.

[Judge Pen]

In formless martial arts, how do they introduce the technique? Drills for different punches, kicks, locks, throws, right? Do they outgrow the drills? Or do the drills get more difficult or advanced?

MK, do you outgrow drills?

[Judge Pen]

There are always a few guys who are just naturally talented and can win no matter what.

Good thing for me, I'm one of those guys. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to fool myself into believing that my CMA forms training was useful. :p

[MasterKiller]

In formless martial arts, how do they introduce the technique? Drills for different punches, kicks, locks, throws, right? Do they outgrow the drills? Or do the drills get more difficult or advanced?

MK, do you outgrow drills?

Yes. You outgrow drills, and they get more advanced. As they get more advanced, they become more and more unrehearsed.

[kwaichang]

What is your point then??? To answer your questions yes and yes, the kicks and strikes would be different. They would be to different areas and with different emphasis. Do you think those guys were going full out. I know some of them it was filmed in Texas/ and a couple of the forms guys on there are devastating fighters. Also I didnt see anyone using a Kwan Tao during sparing but the techniques could be interchangable. Also are we talking street or sport with the BJJ guys. The mind set of a JJ guy and CMA guy is different on the front end. Take 2 people who have never trained train each in a respective art and who ever puts forth the most effort and has heart will win the Not the JJ guy or the CMA or JMA guy its who wants it the most. You are trying to say the techniques of one art is superior to another. Or are you ? KC

[Judge Pen]

Yes. You outgrow drills, and they get more advanced. As they get more advanced, they become more and more unrehearsed.

Your forms get more advanced too. And the drills from those forms get more advanced and more unrehearsed also. But I suspect that you keep training some of the basic drills as they are fundamental to the techniques you are training and because you intend to work with lesser advanced students who are regularly drilling the more fundamental techniques.

[MasterKiller]

What is your point then??? If fighting does not look like form, why spend so much time on form? If people who spend no time on form can become better fighters in a shorter period of time, which method is better for producing fighters? That is my point.


To answer your questions yes and yes, the kicks and strikes would be different. They would be to different areas and with different emphasis. Do you think those guys were going full out. I know some of them it was filmed in Texas/ and a couple of the forms guys on there are devastating fighters. They very well could be. I know this was just a light sparring match. Training manifests in all coordinated movement, though. Wouldn't you agree?


The mind set of a JJ guy and CMA guy is different on the front end. I agree.


Take 2 people who have never trained train each in a respective art and who ever puts forth the most effort and has heart will win the Not the JJ guy or the CMA or JMA guy its who wants it the most. I don't believe this. Heart counts for a lot only if all things are equal or close to equal. When one training method is better than another, I believe there is an advantage.

I'll quote Whitman here:

Have you heard that it was good to gain the day?
I also say it is good to fall, battles are lost in the same spirit in which they are won.


You are trying to say the techniques of one art is superior to another. Or are you ? KC No. I'm saying the BJJ methodolgy, the sport methodolgy, produces better fighters faster. I believe CMA styles trained in this manner produce better CMA fighters than more traditional schools.

The best fighter I train with is an ex-high school wrestling champion. He has amazing skill and didn't have to learn 10 forms to get it.

I am not discounting CMA strategies, CMA techniques, or CMA philisosphies.

Just the methods used to train skill, which in this argument means the reverence of form over other more modern methods.

[MasterKiller]

Your forms get more advanced too. And the drills from those forms get more advanced and more unrehearsed also. But I suspect that you keep training some of the basic drills as they are fundamental to the techniques you are training and because you intend to work with lesser advanced students who are regularly drilling the more fundamental techniques.

The difference, of course, is that drills do not contain techniques or movements unrelated to that specific drill. I don't have to run through five roads just to practice the movement.

[Judge Pen]

Let me ask your opinion on this, MK: Is form training counter-productive? Does it hurt anything if you also take the time to drill and work with live resistance?

[Judge Pen]

The difference, of course, is that drills do not contain techniques or movements unrelated to that specific drill. I don't have to run through five roads just to practice the movement.

But if the drills are excised from the form and trained independantly, then the added movement is extra conditioning and muscle memory training. Isn't that a good thing?

[MasterKiller]

Let me ask your opinion on this, MK: Is form training counter-productive? Does it hurt anything if you also take the time to drill and work with live resistance?

Of course not. If I believed that, I wouldn't maintain my own sets.

[MasterKiller]

But if the drills are excised from the form and trained independantly, then the added movement is extra conditioning and muscle memory training. Isn't that a good thing?

It could be. But you would get better faster if you just spent that time doing the drill and working with a partner to refine it.

[Judge Pen]

It could be. But you would get better faster if you just spent that time doing the drill and working with a partner to refine it.

Faster? Yes. I have always agreed with you on that. But it doesn't mean that a forms-intensive training would not lead you to the same place eventually.

The elephent in the room is the fact that many people who train in forms do not also drill and train with live resistance. But that's not what my point has ever been about

[kwaichang]

So MK by your standards then you should be able to knock out someone with a Jab then I guess the training method difference is what , what specific methodology do you speak of? If it is the "true application of tech over forms I think that is instructor specific not art specific. Heart over tech it is heart that develops will you can have the best tech in the world and if you dont have heart the 1st time you are hit your tech will fail you. Heart = Will = Discipline= Survive
KC

[MasterKiller]

Faster? Yes. I have always agreed with you on that. But it doesn't mean that a forms-intensive training would not lead you to the same place eventually. Well, if a train leaves the station at 80 mph, and another leaves at 30 mph, barring a train wreck, one ain't gonna catch the other.


The elephent in the room is the fact that many people who train in forms do not also drill and train with live resistance. But that's not what my point has ever been about Correct. This is not my argument.

[Judge Pen]

Well, if a train leaves the station at 80 mph, and another leaves at 30 mph, barring a train wreck, one ain't gonna catch the other.


You're assuming that there's not an end point to the destination.

As far as train wrecks, I've often wondered what kind of toll these full-contact matches will have on the bodies of some of the fighters.

[kwaichang]

So you are saying that an art that trains "live" as opposed to dead partners is more effective. Then you are saying that because you train with a bunch of guys live that your art is more effective sooner than an art that does forms . The train that goes 80 runs out of steam sooner than the one at 30 mph. That is where heart comes in. Again it is the teacher not the form or training principles. If the proper idea is not emphasized with the form training then it is dancing. Also to answer an earlier question when you train forms you teach your body to derive power a certain way if this is emphasized the tech will be stronger. do you throw 1000 punches anyway you want NO you work to get the body in the right position that is form shorter but form none the less. so evrytime you throw or shoot or punch and you try to get faster orbetter then you are training forms. Boy I am glad we agree finally KC

[Yao Sing]

Strength training (weightlifting) helps with fighting but can you become a good fighter without it?

Running helps with fighting but can you become a good fighter without running?

What is there in a fighters training that's mandatory to become a good fighter? Is there anything that can't be removed from training?

Why are forms called forms? Is it because you are practicing proper form? Aside from being a catalog of moves and an example of how they work and fit together it is also a repetition of moves which are meant to be done correctly for muscle memory.

Example: some beginners will throw their elbow out when executing a straight punch instead of keeping proper form (alignment). Practicing your form would be keeping proper alignment during the punch.

Forms then would be used to practice proper movement and get the correct way committed to muscle memory. Is there a better way? Of course, nothing beats a live partner for practicing proper movement (positive feedback).

The problem comes when you don't have a live partner. So there's one situation where forms can be invaluable.

Now, in my opinion forms should eventually be transcended. There should come a time when freeform movement can be done. You should reach a point where you can put the moves together in different ways on the spot, like shadow boxing.

Why so long in CMA when shadow boxing can be done early on in Western Boxing? Simply the number of moves.

[MasterKiller]

So MK by your standards then you should be able to knock out someone with a Jab
Me, no LOL. I wish.

But I would put money on any of my one year students versus any traditionally trained 1 year student in a fight.


then I guess the training method difference is what , what specific methodology do you speak of? KC Drilling, partner resistence, and constant live feedback. Everything we do is partner work, including a lot of the conditioning. We also use lots of protective gear so everyone can hit reasonably hard and still go to work the next day, which of course excludes a lot of hand formations, but in my opinion if you can throw a hard cross it's not too awful difficult to make it into a pheonix eye fist if you wanted to.


If it is the "true application of tech over forms I think that is instructor specific not art specific. Well, to be more specific, it's the instructor's METHOD. That's exactly what I'm saying.


Heart over tech it is heart that develops will you can have the best tech in the world and if you dont have heart the 1st time you are hit your tech will fail you. Heart = Will = Discipline= Survive I agree. Hungry people are tough to be beat. But many hungry people have lost fights against people with superior technology throughout history.

[Judge Pen]

But I would put money on any of my one year students versus any traditionally trained 1 year student in a fight.


If everything else is equal and traditional includes proper drilling and live training:

1 year traditional vs. 1 year "modern" Odds favor modern 5 to 1.

2 years Traditional vs. 2 years "modern" Odds favor moders 3 to 1.

5 years Traditional vs. 5 years "modern" 1 to 1.

Nothing scientific mind you, but if traditional is trained properly and conditioning, will, heart etc. is equal, then yes you will get to the same point. Maybe its a 10 year scale maybe more. Maybe less.

[Yao Sing]

Why forms don't look like fighting, why fighting doesn't look like forms:

Forms are the ideal conditions, something that rarely happens in the real world. Most of the time it takes adjustment and maintaining proper form under pressure is difficult to impossible for some. But to improve you still try.

When conditions are ideal a fight could look like a form. Most agree that could happen when one fighter is far superior. That takes the pressure off and he can execute his moves much cleaner.

So does that mean we shouldn't practice the 'correct' way because chance are we won't be able to do it in a fight?

[kwaichang]

Technology takes the I out of the equation. But I will take your bet. I will train a 25 year old male 150 # for one year then we will have a match to test your theory are you game? these people have to be recruited like a job. they cannot have prior training and be willing to complete the training and do the deed. KC

[MasterKiller]

You're assuming that there's not an end point to the destination. Is there? None of us are going to go fight the Manchus. Modern training is training for the sake of training. Where is the end?


[As far as train wrecks, I've often wondered what kind of toll these full-contact matches will have on the bodies of some of the fighters. A lot. I'm injured frequently. But I'm also a much better fighter than I was before, so I'm willing to accept those injuries.

Kung Fu forms are excellent if you want to be a healthy old man. We are speaking about fighting skill.

[Yao Sing]

But I would put money on any of my one year students versus any traditionally trained 1 year student in a fight.

Define traditional. Modern traditional or traditional as in how they trained 500 years ago?

I don't believe what's called traditional today is really traditional.

[Judge Pen]

Is there? None of us are going to go fight the Manchus. Modern training is training for the sake of training. Where is the end?

A lot. I'm injured frequently. But I'm also a much better fighter than I was before, so I'm willing to accept those injuries.

Kung Fu forms are excellent if you want to be a healthy old man. We are speaking about fighting skill.

What's you talking about Willis? It's the threat of the Manchus that keep me training. And by Manchu I mean my daughter's future boyfriend.

The end point is full potential. We keep training to keep us at that level. How do you define full potential? If we are 60, and my body has held up better because I've had fewer injuries, then at that point, I will be the better fighter. Progression is not constant. At some point age, wear and tear, training plateaus etc kick in. You may reach your potential faster, but I may keep mine longer.

[MasterKiller]

Technology takes the I out of the equation. But I will take your bet. I will train a 25 year old male 150 # for one year then we will have a match to test your theory are you game? these people have to be recruited like a job. they cannot have prior training and be willing to complete the training and do the deed. KC

LOL. I don't even have a 150lber now.

I'm not adverse to this idea, but you know as well as I do that a student could sign up and then be gone in 2 months, wasting everyone's time. A much better gauge would be to take a kid you have right now, who has been trained under your normal conditions.

Also, your kid would have to perform all the forms any normal SD student would after 1 year of training.

[MasterKiller]

What's you talking about Willis? It's the threat of the Manchus that keep me training. And by Manchu I mean my daughter's future boyfriend.

The end point is full potential. We keep training to keep us at that level. How do you define full potential? If we are 60, and my body has held up better because I've had fewer injuries, then at that point, I will be the better fighter. Progression is not constant. At some point age, wear and tear, training plateaus etc kick in. You may reach your potential faster, but I may keep mine longer.

You could die tomorrow, too.

All that matters is if you are you training to your fullest potential, to reach your goals, right now.

If your goal is have sweet forms, I'm not dissing you.

If your goal is be a part-time Kung Fu guy that spars a little to stay in shape, I'm not dissing you.

If your goal is to be on TUF season 7, then you should drop the forms.

[tattooedmonk]

The elephent in the room is the fact that many people who train in forms do not also drill and train with live resistance. But that's not what my point has ever been about.....Do you train in drills and with live resistance?? Have you always trained in this manner?? Are your drills based on movements taken directly out of your forms??

[MasterKiller]

Define traditional. Modern traditional or traditional as in how they trained 500 years ago?

I don't believe what's called traditional today is really traditional.

I'm using "modern" in the context of sport-specific training.

[Judge Pen]

You could die tomorrow, too.

All that matters is if you are you training to your fullest potential, to reach your goals, right now.

If your goal is have sweet forms, I'm not dissing you.

If your goal is be a part-time Kung Fu guy that spars a little to stay in shape, I'm not dissing you.

If your goal is to be on TUF season 7, then you should drop the forms.

My goal is probably somewhere in between the last two. I'm not looking to climb into any rings, but I want to be in good enough shape and skill level to defend me and my family should I ever need to.

Of course, If I'm attacked by a gang of UFC fighters, then I'm probably screwed.

[Lucas]

Do you own and train with at least one firearm?

[MasterKiller]

My goal is probably somewhere in between the last two. I'm not looking to climb into any rings, but I want to be in good enough shape and skill level to defend me and my family should I ever need to. Mine as well. I'm 35 and like getting fat paychecks to post on this message board all day.

I started MMA to improve my kung fu. I use what I learned in MMA to make my students better than me. In my eyes, this is how I honor my lineage.


Of course, If I'm attacked by a gang of UFC fighters, then I'm probably screwed.Literally and figuratively.:p

[MasterKiller]

Do you own and train with at least one firearm?

Yes. .

[Judge Pen]

Do you own and train with at least one firearm?

Yes. Kung fu is for when I run out of ammunition.

[Yao Sing]

I'm using "modern" in the context of sport-specific training.

I meant definition of traditional. Or are you saying the the traditional trained guy would be training at a modern school claiming they are traditional.

I say this because the schools claiming traditional instruction are not truley traditional. What passes for traditional nowadays is anything but.


Do you own and train with at least one firearm?

Irrelevant. How many have guns when they actually need them. What are peeps in DC or in England supposed to do?

Kung Fu is with you all the time, even in places where weapons are not allowed.

[Citong Shifu]

:rolleyes:

And this is why CMA schools get no respect in fighting circles.

LOL, not when everyone else has it all figured out.... Fighting circles, I've never not been respected within the circles I have access to.... All I can say is this, if you think training mma makes you better than what you were, knock yourself out.... You've probably already had the training with your kungfu, but just didnt see it or it wasn't pointed out.... If not, dont know....

MMA is nothing new, lol.... I remember when I was a child training, we kick boxed, locked/submit, threw down, swept, etc, even when sparring and that was 25 years ago, lol.... Hows is it different today? Like Shamrock stated publicly, "The best fighters aren't found in the ring (mma), there at their schools training" :eek:.

With that said, I like training mma style, the way I was tought to train in my art/s (cma), doesn't mean I have to take BJJ. JJ, Judo, MT, etc.... My lineage has stand up, grappling, wresting, submission (which is for training. There is no submission in TCMA, the person was just killed), conditioning, etc. How is it different from what you do? Or since my style trains this way, is it mma and not TCMA?

Whats funny is alot of BJJ, JJ, combat Judo, etc is incorporating various styles of kick, punches, boxing techniques, etc, maybe when a mma guy knocks out someone with a hammerfist (like sivia uses alot) we say he used a karate, kungfu, etc, technique (like cung le using a MT roundhouse instead of a chinese kick) not a mma technique. Its just appearing that mma people take credit for everything, this is mma, that is mma, mma etc....

Maybe you dont like my debate topics, thats ok, but for every point you bring up, I can point it back.... No right or wrong, just difference in our backgrounds....

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with mma training, but its not the only way to build proper martial arts skills and abilities....

By the way, do you have any available clips of yourself fighting, sparring, teaching techniques, etc. If so, I would like to see themmm. I will put some up as soon as I get them recorded and converted to youtube. May have to have a lil help, never tried the youtube thing...

Take care
cs

[MasterKiller]

I meant definition of traditional. Or are you saying the the traditional trained guy would be training at a modern school claiming they are traditional.
For the sake of this argument, I'll say traditional schools focus on forms training as the primary method to develop hand-to-hand skill, even though they may also incorporate sparring and drilling methods in their curriculum to help reinforce the forms. Let's not even get into stance training, weapons, etc...


I say this because the schools claiming traditional instruction are not truley traditional. What passes for traditional nowadays is anything but.
Well, I know that. And you know that. And all the legitimate books about traditional training say that. But a lot of 'traditional' folks just keep pluggin away nonetheless.

[themeecer]

Yes. Kung fu is for when I run out of ammunition.

Or when you're really ticked off.

[themeecer]

------------------------------------------------
Of course, If I'm attacked by a gang of UFC fighters, then I'm probably screwed.
------------------------------------------------
Literally and figuratively.:p
I always thought it looked like a lot of man-love going on in those cage matches. Grown men wearing those tighty shorts and hugging all over each other. I bet MMA is really popular in San Francisco. :D

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f376/Brian1969/GayJiuJitsu.jpg

[Citong Shifu]

:rolleyes:

And this is why CMA schools get no respect in fighting circles.

Why teach those who already know it all? Like your statements about forms! What else is there to discuss?

[MasterKiller]

LOL, not when everyone else has it all figured out.... Fighting circles, I've never not been respected within the circles I have access to.... All I can say is this, if you think training mma makes you better than what you were, knock yourself out.... You've probably already had the training with your kungfu, but just didnt see it or it wasn't pointed out.... If not, dont know....

MMA is nothing new, lol.... I remember when I was a child training, we kick boxed, locked/submit, threw down, swept, etc, even when sparring and that was 25 years ago, lol.... Hows is it different today? Like Shamrock stated publicly, "The best fighters aren't found in the ring (mma), there at their schools training" :eek:.

With that said, I like training mma style, the way I was tought to train in my art/s (cma), doesn't mean I have to take BJJ. JJ, Judo, MT, etc.... My lineage has stand up, grappling, wresting, submission (which is for training. There is no submission in TCMA, the person was just killed), conditioning, etc. How is it different from what you do? Or since my style trains this way, is it mma and not TCMA?

Whats funny is alot of BJJ, JJ, combat Judo, etc is incorporating various styles of kick, punches, boxing techniques, etc, maybe when a mma guy knocks out someone with a hammerfist (like sivia uses alot) we say he used a karate, kungfu, etc, technique (like cung le using a MT roundhouse instead of a chinese kick) not a mma technique. Its just appearing that mma people take credit for everything, this is mma, that is mma, mma etc....

Maybe you dont like my debate topics, thats ok, but for every point you bring up, I can point it back.... No right or wrong, just difference in our backgrounds....

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with mma training, but its not the only way to build proper martial arts skills and abilities....


CS,
Your frustration lies in the fact that hardly any CMA people compete at a high level in MMA circles; therefore, people do not know what CMA techniques are. When CMA people man-up, this will change. Look at all the talk about Cung Le's sidekick right now.

Of course, CMA people will not make their presence felt until there is wide acceptance of modern training methods to make them competitive in the first place. Therein lies the rub.

[MasterKiller]

Why teach those who already know it all? ... What else is there to discuss?

Exactly!

Wait, you were just talking about yourself, right?

[Citong Shifu]

CS,
Your frustration lies in the fact that hardly any CMA people compete at a high level in MMA circles; therefore, people do not know what CMA techniques are. When CMA people man-up, this will change. Look at all the talk about Cung Le's sidekick right now.

Of course, CMA people will not make their presence felt until there is wide acceptance of modern training methods to make them competitive in the first place. Therein lies the rub.

I have no frustration/s concerning this matter, just point and facts.... Its kinda of funny, I dont see the mma guys traveling to China and voluteering for the lei tai fights, which are illegal, but so are steroids :eek:... Why is that? :rolleyes:. Alot of hype, but no real confidence.... Take it however you wish, its apparent that you have been blined to the real essence of cma training... By all means, keep hindering your real progress (health, fitness, longevity, etc) all it takes is for someone to exploit one of your injuries, either accidently or purposeful and the rest is common sense.... I'll continue to travel the path of understanding the why, how, and when.... There's no reason for me to learn anything right now in order to defend myself....

Take care
cs

[Citong Shifu]

Exactly!

Wait, you were just talking about yourself, right?

By your comment, I think you know what I meant :rolleyes:.

[MasterKiller]

I have no frustration/s concerning this matter, just point and facts.... Its kinda of funny, I dont see the mma guys traveling to China and voluteering for the lei tai fights, which are illegal, but so are steroids :eek:... Why is that? :rolleyes:. Alot of hype, but no real confidence.... Take it however you wish, its apparent that you have been blined to the real essence of cma training... By all means, keep hindering your real progress (health, fitness, longevity, etc) all it takes is for someone to exploit one of your injuries, either accidently or purposeful and the rest is common sense.... I'll continue to travel the path of understanding the why, how, and when.... There's no reason for me to learn anything right now in order to defend myself....

Take care
cs

Keep showing your ignorance and blind allegiance. Google Rio Heroes sometime. I don't see "illegal":rolleyes: Chinese Lei Tei fighters going to brazil to fight in true NHB contests, either.

Or maybe look at ART OF WAR sometime. You think those real Kung Fu fighters spend all day playing with fake swords?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB3imGN3qBo

Doesn't that just put a bug in your craw, CS? In the motherland, of all places.

By the way, MMA is not a style. It's a competition format. You are correct in saying all CMA guys should have all these same techniques. Why aren't more of them fighting again?

[Citong Shifu]

Keep showing your ignorance and blind allegiance. Google Rio Heroes sometime. I don't see "illegal":rolleyes: Chinese Lei Tei fighters going to brazil to fight in true NHB contests, either.

Or maybe look at ART OF WAR sometime. You think those real Kung Fu fighters spend all day playing with fake swords?

LOL, how'd I know you were going to say that or something like that.... Keep trying to measure up to the great hero's. Remember, your you. Are you sure you have the understanding to debate these issues? I think you have, what, like 1 to 2 years training mma style... Guess that makes you an expert on mma and its superiority over all MA, doesn't it.... Give yourself a break and get a clue.... :rolleyes:

cs

[MasterKiller]

LOL, how'd I know you were going to say that or something like that.... Keep trying to measure up to the great hero's. Great heros? Are you on crack? Rio Heros is a NHB fighting league. You are as ignorant about MMA as you are headstrong about CMA.


Remember, your you. Are you sure you have the understanding to debate these issues? I think you have, what, like 1 to 2 years training mma style... Guess that makes you an expert on mma and its superiority over all MA, doesn't it.... Give yourself a break and get a clue.... :rolleyes:

cs

My school is 1-0 in cage fights.

What's your school's record, again?

[Citong Shifu]

Keep showing your ignorance and blind allegiance. Google Rio Heroes sometime. I don't see "illegal":rolleyes: Chinese Lei Tei fighters going to brazil to fight in true NHB contests, either.

Or maybe look at ART OF WAR sometime. You think those real Kung Fu fighters spend all day playing with fake swords?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB3imGN3qBo

Doesn't that just put a bug in your craw, CS? In the motherland, of all places.

Who said anything about playing with fake swords, ect. Or, playing forms all day :rolleyes:. You love to sway conversations dont you? What makes you the authority on forms and there value for fighting or training to fight? You've aleady displayed your lack of understanding concerning forms training, why say anything else... I dont agree with and will never agree, on this issue. So, stop trying to cram your nonsense down other peoples throats... Play hard and have fun.... Yur confidence is only as stong as your understanding, believe that.... I'm glad your producing good fighters early in their training, thats great! But so what.... Your not the end all to CMA as a whole..... Also, you need to stop demeaning people because they dont agree with you. Do what you want, just stop crying about it, good gosh....

cs

[Citong Shifu]

Great heros? Are you on crack? Rio Heros is a NHB fighting league. You are as ignorant about MMA as you are headstrong about CMA.



My school is 1-0 in cage fights.

What's your school's record, again?

LOL, How do you survive life, lmao? I dont train cage fighters, hmmmm, stupid! like I said, sway the conversation however you wish... 1-0 huhhhhh, for having such few victories, arent you a lil pre-mature with the ego :rolleyes:.

cs

[MasterKiller]

Who said anything about playing with fake swords, ect. Or, playing forms all day :rolleyes:. You love to sway conversations dont you? What makes you the authority on forms and there value for fighting or training to fight? You've aleady displayed your lack of understanding concerning forms training, why say anything else... I dont agree with and will never agree, on this issue. So, stop trying to cram your nonsense down other peoples throats... Play hard and have fun.... Yur confidence is only as stong as your understanding, believe that.... I'm glad your producing good fighters early in their training, thats great! But so what.... Your not the end all to CMA as a whole..... Also, you need to stop demeaning people because they dont agree with you. Do what you want, just stop crying about it, good gosh....

cs

Why don't you check the conversation, bro, to see who started demeaning whom first.

If you don't agree, leave the thread. No one is making you respond. I was talking to JP and KC anyway before you got all high and mighty.

[sanjuro_ronin]

8900 posts !!

Holy Testicular Thursday !!

This deserves something spicy !

[MasterKiller]

LOL, How do you survive life, lmao? I dont train cage fighters, hmmmm, stupid! like I said, sway the conversation however you wish... 1-0 huhhhhh, for having such few victories, arent you a lil pre-mature with the ego :rolleyes:.

cs

No sh1t you don't train cage fighters. It's evident in everything you say.

I've only been open for about a year. You, in your 35 years, have yet to produce what I did in 12 months.

hence, my point.

[Citong Shifu]

Great heros? Are you on crack? Rio Heros is a NHB fighting league. You are as ignorant about MMA as you are headstrong about CMA.



My school is 1-0 in cage fights.

What's your school's record, again?

Your not impressing anyone! Lets see your ass in the cage knocking the F out of people.... Your 1-0 or your students are 1-0? Lets see your cage fight/s footage...

[MasterKiller]

Your not impressing anyone! Lets see your ass in the cage knocking the F out of people.... Your 1-0 or your students are 1-0? Lets see your cage fight/s footage...

Aw...I must have hit a nerve.

[Citong Shifu]

No sh1t you don't train cage fighters. It's evident in everything you say.

I've only been open for about a year. You, in your 35 years, have yet to produce what I did in 12 months.

hence, my point.

Once again, I'm not a mma school training cage fighters, lol... 1 year, holy sh1t, you do know it all....

Where's your cage fighting experience and record/s, BOSS MAN... What are your accomplishments.....

cs

[MasterKiller]

Once again, I'm not a mma school training cage fighters, lol... 1 year, holy sh1t, you do know it all....

Where's your cage fighting experience and record/s, BOSS MAN... What are your accomplishments.....

cs
I don't have a record, as I was never trained as a fighter, either. That's something we have in common!

But we can compare medals for forms competitions if we ever meet. I'm sure you have more than me, though.