Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Citong Shifu]

Aw...I must have hit a nerve.

Nope, just commenting on your lack of success in your new found style.... You need to put your ass in the cage for a few years, then you'll have something to talk about... Its funny, there's always those guys out there talking crap and putting their students in the ring, but wont step up themselves, lol.... Lets see your cage footage, lets see your knock down drag out brawls/fights, etc....
This is just about worthless to discuss anymore.... HERO!!!!!!!!

[Citong Shifu]

I don't have a record, as I was never trained as a fighter, either. That's something we have in common!

But we can compare medals for forms competitions if we ever meet. I'm sure you have more than me, though.

Sure do with over 30 of them in sanshou, player..... Not to mention 100 or more grandchampion awards, International and national gold medalist, etc, but who cares... The point is getting out there and taking the ass beatings and so forth...

I'm sure your a good person and really love what you do... thats what its about... Have fun, train hard, and kick some butt....

[Judge Pen]

My school is 1-0 in cage fights.

What's your school's record, again?

If I'm not mistaken, 1-0. :)

I don't know if Master Garry's student has fought since that match in Louisville KY a couple of years ago. I'll ask this weekend and find out the particulars.

[MasterKiller]

If I'm not mistaken, 1-0. :)

I don't know if Master Garry's student has fought since that match in Louisville KY a couple of years ago. I'll ask this weekend and find out the particulars.

Good. It would be interesting to hear how he trained for his fight as well. Can you get some particulars on his regime?

Also, I know SD is diversified. What is his 'main' style...is it an internally-focused school? External? Both?

[Judge Pen]

Good. It would be interesting to hear how he trained for his fight as well.

I'll find out what I can. I think they guy was a 1st degree brown at the time. He was out of the Johnson City school, so I didn't have a lot of interaction with him myself. I sparred with his older brother often and he was a beast as well.

I think BentMonk actually watched the fight in person.... There were some posts about his 600 or 700 pages ago. :p

[Citong Shifu]

I don't have a record, as I was never trained as a fighter, either. That's something we have in common!

But we can compare medals for forms competitions if we ever meet. I'm sure you have more than me, though.

Didnt you just attend one of Coach Ross's training camps this winter or last... NYSanda has a very good program, I like Sifu Ross, never met him in purpose, but he seems very knowledgable. I've read there website a couple of times, looks as though they have some pretty informative sanshou dvd's out.... I've been thinking about attending some of his SS camps, looks very interesting... Whats your take on his workshops?

cs

[MasterKiller]

Didnt you just attend one of Coach Ross's training camps this winter or last... NYSanda has a very good program, I like Sifu Ross, never met him in purpose, but he seems very knowledgable. I've read there website a couple of times, looks as though they have some pretty informative sanshou dvd's out.... I've been thinking about attending some of his SS camps, looks very interesting... Whats your take on his workshops?

cs

I attended Ross' Instructor Training seminar and was certified under him as an affiliate. Ross is a wealth of knowledge and his DVDs are sensational tools for Chinese stylists because he discusses sport-specific training in the context of CMA tradition.

His punching and clinching DVD was really the beginning of my journey into MMA training.

That class was instrumental in the way I set up my program and train and I would recommend it to ANYONE who runs a SanDa/San Shou class or wants to start.

Yutyeesam (Santanu Rahman) from the forum is also a fan of his DVDs. We've discussed them at length.

[Citong Shifu]

I attended Ross' Instructor Training seminar and was certified under him as an affiliate. Ross is a wealth of knowledge and his DVDs are sensational tools for Chinese stylists because he discusses sport-specific training in the context of CMA tradition.

That class was instrumental in the way I set up my program and train and I would recommend it to ANYONE who runs a SanDa/San Shou class or wants to start.

Yutyeesam (Santanu Rahman) from the forum is also a fan of his DVDs. We've discussed them at length.

Thats cool! Think I'll check into then.... There's just not enough Sanshou resources out there today...

Thanks
cs

[BentMonk]

I'll find out what I can. I think they guy was a 1st degree brown at the time. He was out of the Johnson City school, so I didn't have a lot of interaction with him myself. I sparred with his older brother often and he was a beast as well.

I think BentMonk actually watched the fight in person.... There were some posts about his 600 or 700 pages ago. :p

I did see the fight in question. I do not know the specifics on how he trained, but IMO it looked like he was using SD exclusively. I say this because his defenses against his opponents take down attempts appeared more reflexive than something he trained. He also attempted no shoots or other entry techniques common to MMA and BJJ. His punches and kicks were fast and strong. He won by TKO via punches. I also thought it was cool that he walked to the cage door sportin' his SD t-shirt. :D

[Citong Shifu]

I did see the fight in question. I do not know the specifics on how he trained, but IMO it looked like he was using SD exclusively. I say this because his defenses against his opponents take down attempts appeared more reflexive than something he trained. He also attempted no shoots or other entry techniques common to MMA and BJJ. His punches and kicks were fast and strong. He won by TKO via punches. I also thought it was cool that he walked to the cage door sportin' his SD t-shirt. :D

Is this fight on youtube? If so, can you post the link...

Thanks
cs

[MasterKiller]

I did see the fight in question. I do not know the specifics on how he trained, but IMO it looked like he was using SD exclusively. I say this because his defenses against his opponents take down attempts appeared more reflexive than something he trained. He also attempted no shoots or other entry techniques common to MMA and BJJ. His punches and kicks were fast and strong. He won by TKO via punches. I also thought it was cool that he walked to the cage door sportin' his SD t-shirt. :D

Is this a different guy? I thought there was a video of an SD guy winning by submission?

[kwaichang]

I have a video from the 70's called martial art masters ??? anyway these guys were trained classically and they did forms I think these guys were from NY anyway one talks about how he was attacked by 5 guys and 4 of them ended up in the Hospital. and to think all that w/o MMA principles and training methods. KC:confused:

[BentMonk]

Is this fight on youtube? If so, can you post the link...

Thanks
cs

I don't think it's on YouTube. I think my bud has it on DVD. I'll check with him and see if he can post it.

[BentMonk]

Is this a different guy? I thought there was a video of an SD guy winning by submission?

It must be two different guys. The guy I saw won by TKO with punches. Of course I've watched a few dozen fights since then, and my memory is far from perfect. ;) I'll see if I can get a vid posted.

[MasterKiller]

I have a video from the 70's called martial art masters ??? anyway these guys were trained classically and they did forms I think these guys were from NY anyway one talks about how he was attacked by 5 guys and 4 of them ended up in the Hospital. and to think all that w/o MMA principles and training methods. KC:confused:

Maybe if he used a modern method all 5 would have been hurt. :p

[Judge Pen]

Is this a different guy? I thought there was a video of an SD guy winning by submission?

This is a different guy. The other guy was from somewhere in KY I think.

[Yao Sing]

Maybe if he used a modern method all 5 would have been hurt. :p

If that were the case then none would have gone to the hospital because two would have tapped and the other three would have left after getting tired of waiting their turn after the second 5 min round. :D

[MasterKiller]

Ray Park, a wushu guy, put 3 guys in the hospital when they tried to mug him. Like I said, some guys will just get it, no matter how you train them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ray Park, a wushu guy, put 3 guys in the hospital when they tried to mug him. Like I said, some guys will just get it, no matter how you train them.

Yeah, but Ray is a Sith, he has the dark side of the force.

[Judge Pen]

Ray Park, a wushu guy, put 3 guys in the hospital when they tried to mug him. Like I said, some guys will just get it, no matter how you train them.

:eek: Are you saying that wushu guys can't fight unless they have natural ability? Obvioulsy those three guys weren't trained in MMA.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, but Ray is a Sith, he has the dark side of the force.

And a lightsaber. Lightsabers are excellent to defend against the shoot, triangle choke and the MT roundhouse kick.

[sean_stonehart]

Ray Park being a Sith hasn't anything to do with it. He was a wimp Sith that got lucky against an Irish Jedi & was done in by a Scottish Padawan.

He's also been a frog mutant, a headless horsemen, a bad guy super agent & was almost Daniel Rand-kai a/k/a Iron Fist ... NOW HE'S FREAKING SNAKE EYES!!!

The reason he did in the guys that tried to mug him... he's a short Scotsman!!!

[Judge Pen]

Ray Park being a Sith hasn't anything to do with it. He was a wimp Sith that got lucky against an Irish Jedi & was done in by a Scottish Padawan.

He's also been a frog mutant, a headless horsemen, a bad guy super agent & was almost Daniel Rand-kai a/k/a Iron Fist ... NOW HE'S FREAKING SNAKE EYES!!!

The reason he did in the guys that tried to mug him... he's a short Scotsman!!!

Eh, short scotsmen aren't that tough. I'd take a tall irishman with yellow-fever in a fight any day.

[MasterKiller]

Ray Park being a Sith hasn't anything to do with it. He was a wimp Sith that got lucky against an Irish Jedi & was done in by a Scottish Padawan.

He's also been a frog mutant, a headless horsemen, a bad guy super agent & was almost Daniel Rand-kai a/k/a Iron Fist ... NOW HE'S FREAKING SNAKE EYES!!!

The reason he did in the guys that tried to mug him... he's a short Scotsman!!!

Um...Maul survived Obi-Wan's splitting him in two.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/CyborgDarthMaul.jpg

Obi-Wan eventually kills him (again) by shoving a lightsaber blade directly into his forehead when Maul returns to tattooine to kill Luke.

[sean_stonehart]

Um...Maul survived Obi-Wan's splitting him in two.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/CyborgDarthMaul.jpg

Obi-Wan eventually kills him (again) by shoving a lightsaber blade directly into his forehead when Maul returns to tattooine to kill Luke.

Well at least he wasn't the floaty guy Kyle Katairn has to deal with in the video game.

Still...

[Judge Pen]

Careful guys, your geek is showing.

[Citong Shifu]

If that were the case then none would have gone to the hospital because two would have tapped and the other three would have left after getting tired of waiting their turn after the second 5 min round. :D

Or, he would have got the sh1t stomped out of him by the other 3 while trying to get the first 2 to tap, lol.... However, When I used to do night club security, I took down 3 guys while on my back and a somewhat sitting position.... LOL, my only intention was to get back up though... In other words, I didnt try to choke any of them out. There was like a massive brawl going on :eek:. I stumbled over a bush while trying to get away from these guys. Thank god they tried to beat me down 1 at a time.... Oh well, lesson learned. Dont ever trip over a bush while in a brawl :D.

cs

[sean_stonehart]

Careful guys, your geek is showing.

Jealous?!?!?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Careful guys, your geek is showing.

She thinks Star Wars is cool, we are in good company :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

So does she:

[Eternal Student]

So does she:

Ok, now this is a much better topic. Discuss!!!:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

So do they:

[sanjuro_ronin]

And this one even knows how to "handle a light saber" :D

[Judge Pen]

Jealous?!?!?

Of what???

[mkriii]

Ya know, I'm sick of people saying that wu shu people can't fight unless they have a "natural" ability. I know plenty of wu shu people that can fight **** good. MMA isn't everything and I'm tired of people saying that it is. Sure there are lots of moves in wu shu that are worthless (butterfly twist) but there is a lot of moves that are. Really if you think about it wu shu is kung fu to the extreme.........stances are lower, kicks are higher, punches are faster, etc.... The question is does the wu shu practitioner practice his fighting skills? Obviously isn't going to help his ground fighting skills but the wu shu techniques/moves may help him in his stand up game IF he practices his fighting skills correctly.

[Citong Shifu]

Somebody posted something about tournamnets not to long ago. Where are the SD tourny's or which ones do you compete in? Are they all in Kentucky? I working on getting down that way for some action.... Can you guys help me out...

CS

[themeecer]

We have one tournament in Lexington Ky in September every year. However, it is a closed tournament, which has its pluses and minuses. At some of the open tournaments we have attended in the past we have ran into the following problems:

1) No sweeping the supporting leg
2) No groin attacks!! (This is a big one at TKD tournaments where they leave their groin exposed most of the fight)
3) No attacking someone on the ground
4) Very small allowable target areas that favors the art of the hosting school. (ie .. no hand attacks to the top of the head but axe kicks to the same area are allowed)
5) 15 year old kids who have rarely seen anything besides TKD forms judging an open forms competition. ( I was told that my sword form was done too fast)

Granted in south central Ky our options are limited on the types of tournaments available.

[shadowlin]

We have one tournament in Lexington Ky in September every year. However, it is a closed tournament, which has its pluses and minuses. At some of the open tournaments we have attended in the past we have ran into the following problems:

1) No sweeping the supporting leg
2) No groin attacks!! (This is a big one at TKD tournaments where they leave their groin exposed most of the fight)
3) No attacking someone on the ground
4) Very small allowable target areas that favors the art of the hosting school. (ie .. no hand attacks to the top of the head but axe kicks to the same area are allowed)
5) 15 year old kids who have rarely seen anything besides TKD forms judging an open forms competition. ( I was told that my sword form was done too fast)

Granted in south central Ky our options are limited on the types of tournaments available.

he could always say he's your student.

[kwaichang]

here is the problem, If you come to Lex with the right attitude and ask to enter you might be allowed to , however if you do and lose it will prob be said the tourney was biased in reality it would probably be more likely the odds of 1 out of say 150 BB level people you compete against. KC

[themeecer]

he could always say he's your student.
Well only for sparring. Obviously he couldn't compete in forms competition.

[Citong Shifu]

Well only for sparring. Obviously he couldn't compete in forms competition.

Well, dont know if I'll have a chance to make it to the area in September. I was really hoping there was something going on in the Summer (June or July)... Well, if anything develops, let me know...

CS

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL! SD has longfist.

Blast from the past......man MK, you're one assuming dude. I took Longfist from a Chinese instructor in Norcross who had no affiliation with SD. But yeah, if our (SD's) "short forms" are Tan Tui, then we have Longfist--more or less (same postures, same movements, in smaller segments for beginners.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Ya know, I'm sick of people saying that wu shu people can't fight unless they have a "natural" ability. I know plenty of wu shu people that can fight **** good. MMA isn't everything and I'm tired of people saying that it is. Sure there are lots of moves in wu shu that are worthless (butterfly twist) but there is a lot of moves that are. Really if you think about it wu shu is kung fu to the extreme.........stances are lower, kicks are higher, punches are faster, etc.... The question is does the wu shu practitioner practice his fighting skills? Obviously isn't going to help his ground fighting skills but the wu shu techniques/moves may help him in his stand up game IF he practices his fighting skills correctly.

I know a wushu guy that can't fight. But he's 10X better at forms than me. But then, his school (my former Longfist school) doesn't spar any more than 1nce a month.

I would agree with you on some points, though (very rare, I know). Wushu guys are generally in phenomenal shape. But lots have **** for physical strength. Contrary to what wushu teachers say, beef counts.

[MasterKiller]

Blast from the past......man MK, you're one assuming dude. I took Longfist from a Chinese instructor in Norcross who had no affiliation with SD. But yeah, if our (SD's) "short forms" are Tan Tui, then we have Longfist--more or less (same postures, same movements, in smaller segments for beginners.

Your hua forms are pure longfist. Mantis is also longfist, unless it's Southern. Adam Hsu says Tai Chi is longfist, but I don't know if I agree with that (even though he's obviously a better source than me). I would wager your curriculum has quite a bit of longfist in it. Traditional LongFist...not modern, mind you.

I have a sneaky suspicion your LongFist teacher started you off learning modern to condition you, which is what a lot of professional teachers coming out of China seem to do.

Wubu Chuan, for example, is a standard beginner form in Chang Quan schools, but it's modern.

You know what they say about assumptions...

[BM2]

Ya know, I'm sick of people saying that wu shu people can't fight unless they have a "natural" ability. I know plenty of wu shu people that can fight **** good. MMA isn't everything and I'm tired of people saying that it is. Sure there are lots of moves in wu shu that are worthless (butterfly twist) but there is a lot of moves that are. Really if you think about it wu shu is kung fu to the extreme.........stances are lower, kicks are higher, punches are faster, etc.... The question is does the wu shu practitioner practice his fighting skills? Obviously isn't going to help his ground fighting skills but the wu shu techniques/moves may help him in his stand up game IF he practices his fighting skills correctly.


You ever sparred with the Brownings?

[Golden Tiger]

You ever sparred with the Brownings?

Just wondering, you have sparred most of the "old timers" in and around Lexington. How do you think they would stack up against the "Brownings", who ever they might be. I only ask because you have the knowlege of both, not to put you on the spot or anything.

Personally, I have worked out with just about every school of thought when it comes to fighting. Granted, the first meeting, each of us had our strenghts and weaknesses, but I was usually able to adapt rather quickly to what ever was thrown at me. Of course I was bested more than once, but I found that it I stopped for a second, assesed the situation, I could draw on some form of training I had received in SD and overcome or at least make it equal.



Well, dont know if I'll have a chance to make it to the area in September. I was really hoping there was something going on in the Summer (June or July)... Well, if anything develops, let me know...


If you are able to make it down to the area, I am sure that most on here (if not all) would welcome you to the gym and have a mutual sharing of information. Our gym is not at all a hostile environment if someone stops by with a good attitude. Heck, even those that have stopped by with a bad attitude are just asked to leave. We are not evil people.

[kwaichang]

You talking about the 12 Gauge Pump Brownings ?? haha.. Anyway guys I have not been able to train the way I want to for 6 months due to an injury. Well I finally went back to the Md and got some good NSAIDS I am in Heaven and to borrow a phrase from a movie "Ill be back" and soon hell I might do what The Black Dragon did and do a MMA thing, @#$# I feel good for a change.
KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Your hua forms are pure longfist. Mantis is also longfist, unless it's Southern. Adam Hsu says Tai Chi is longfist, but I don't know if I agree with that (even though he's obviously a better source than me). I would wager your curriculum has quite a bit of longfist in it. Traditional LongFist...not modern, mind you.

I have a sneaky suspicion your LongFist teacher started you off learning modern to condition you, which is what a lot of professional teachers coming out of China seem to do.

Wubu Chuan, for example, is a standard beginner form in Chang Quan schools, but it's modern.

You know what they say about assumptions...

I know he had me doing modern longfist wushu for conditioning and structure (posture). I could point to a million forms on youtube showing what we were doing, with very, very slight differences. Same stuff as all the basics I've seen anywhere, just more stress on looking pretty and graceful (not really meant to be a jab at wushu, as I know I didn't really enjoy it much, even though he taught me a lot about balance, stepping, and structure--as well as great warm-up drills. Half of his stuff was contemporary wushu). I could tell he was a competitive wushu guy, as he kind of based his criticism on what would get you points and what wouldn't....LOL.....but he was a solid teacher.

[Citong Shifu]

Just wondering, you have sparred most of the "old timers" in and around Lexington. How do you think they would stack up against the "Brownings", who ever they might be. I only ask because you have the knowlege of both, not to put you on the spot or anything.

Personally, I have worked out with just about every school of thought when it comes to fighting. Granted, the first meeting, each of us had our strenghts and weaknesses, but I was usually able to adapt rather quickly to what ever was thrown at me. Of course I was bested more than once, but I found that it I stopped for a second, assesed the situation, I could draw on some form of training I had received in SD and overcome or at least make it equal.





If you are able to make it down to the area, I am sure that most on here (if not all) would welcome you to the gym and have a mutual sharing of information. Our gym is not at all a hostile environment if someone stops by with a good attitude. Heck, even those that have stopped by with a bad attitude are just asked to leave. We are not evil people.

GT, Without a doubt! The thing is this, It's easier to tell my wife that I'm traveling out of state to participate in a tournament than it is to stop in and visit a school or two, lol :D. I don't know anyone in Kentucky to really have a reason to cruise down there, never know though.... I'm just looking for the easy way out, with my wife, lol, lol.... But, If I happen to be passing through, I will definitely stop by one or two....

cs

[BentMonk]

I have a great reason for everyone to visit Louisville. July 12 & 13 Steve Cotter and Dave Randolph will be doing a seminar that will offer a great deal of info on kettlebells, qi gong, and BWE. Anyone interested can go to:

www.kentuckianacrossfit.com

All details are listed in the, Upcoming Events section. Everyone is welcome.

[Judge Pen]

I have a great reason for everyone to visit Louisville. July 12 & 13 Steve Cotter and Dave Randolph will be doing a seminar that will offer a great deal of info on kettlebells, qi gong, and BWE. Anyone interested can go to:

www.kentuckianacrossfit.com

All details are listed in the, Upcoming Events section. Everyone is welcome.

Too bad, I'm heading to California that weekend. But my wife is going to be visiting family for a couple of weeks in June. I'll have a bit more flexibility in going around and visiting other schools while she's gone (within a few hours driving distance anyway).

[tattooedmonk]

JP...and to whomever else in SD......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Pen

The elephent in the room is the fact that many people who train in forms do not also drill and train with live resistance. But that's not what my point has ever been about .

MY Question.....Do you train in drills and with live resistance?? Have you always trained in this manner?? Are your drills based on movements taken directly out of your forms??

[BentMonk]

TTM - Yes I train live and have since day one. Yes I use our forms as a base to build specific drills. I also throw on the gloves and trade as much leather with as many different people from as many different styles as possible. I don't officially train in any art besides SD. I have been taught effective techniques by friends who train BJJ, MT, TKD, Shotokan, wrestling, and boxing. SD has a great deal to offer, but IMO you should always be willing to learn from everyone and leave your mind open at all times. Everyone who trains in the combat arts has something worthwhile to offer you. If they did not, their respective styles would not have been practiced by hundreds of people for hundreds of years.

[Citong Shifu]

I have a great reason for everyone to visit Louisville. July 12 & 13 Steve Cotter and Dave Randolph will be doing a seminar that will offer a great deal of info on kettlebells, qi gong, and BWE. Anyone interested can go to:

www.kentuckianacrossfit.com

All details are listed in the, Upcoming Events section. Everyone is welcome.

This sounds interesting...

cs

[tattooedmonk]

TTM - Yes I train live and have since day one. Yes I use our forms as a base to build specific drills. I also throw on the gloves and trade as much leather with as many different people from as many different styles as possible. I don't officially train in any art besides SD. I have been taught effective techniques by friends who train BJJ, MT, TKD, Shotokan, wrestling, and boxing. SD has a great deal to offer, but IMO you should always be willing to learn from everyone and leave your mind open at all times. Everyone who trains in the combat arts has something worthwhile to offer you. If they did not, their respective styles would not have been practiced by hundreds of people for hundreds of years.I figured as much. Some people get the idea that because we train in CMA/ Shaolin that we are like everyone else, it is obvious that we are not like everyone else.:D

[BentMonk]

This sounds interesting...

cs

Dave Randolph has been my SD instructor for 14 years. He introduced me to kettlebells 5 years ago, after he got his RKC cert from Pavel. Dave was one of the first 90 people certified by Pavel. I have had the pleasure of attending one other seminar by, Steve Cotter. I can tell you first hand that both of these guys know their stuff. I think you would enjoy it a great deal.

[BentMonk]

I figured as much. Some people get the idea that because we train in CMA/ Shaolin that we are like everyone else, it is obvious that we are not like everyone else.:D

Well from the way I walk to nearly everything else in my life, I never have done things like everyone else. I suppose that's why SD suits me so well. :D

[MasterKiller]

Most schools take stuff from the forms and drill it. That's the traditional method. But if you spend the majority of your time working the form or learning new forms, and only a small portion of your time drilling, then obviously you will be much better at performing than you will be at applying.

[kwaichang]

MK you seem to be much like the government you pass your opinion or laws bases upon the behavior of the few. Not long ago you could get Ma Hwong in a fat burner and the directions were 1-2 pills befor each meal with 8-10 oz of water . well some dummy took 6 and died from a heart attack and the gov banned the substance.so now others miss out , the list goes on and on Watch Boston Legal they touch on alot of things like this. You judge the effectiveness of a martial art by a small percentage of practitioners and feel you are right much like the government , and the many, who believe you know what you are talking about, suffer. But you say many things that are unfounded. I and many who train in TCMA with Forms etc can and do apply what we know we do not train for sport so our sport application is slim , but not non existant.
Question , why dont women compete against men in Pool Tourneys. ?? Pool is not so much power as it is positioning and finesse.!! well just my 2 cents worth I feel rather wordy tonight. Also to set the record straight:: TCMA or TJMA can and is as effective in 1 year as your MMA the venue is different and does not apply so much to sport so the art seems to be less effective. And as I have said the teacher , the student and the Method the TMA is taught is important. So dont judge the many by the few you have experienced. KC

[BM2]

[QUOTE=Golden Tiger;855275]Just wondering, you have sparred most of the "old timers" in and around Lexington. How do you think they would stack up against the "Brownings", who ever they might be. I only ask because you have the knowlege of both, not to put you on the spot or anything.

MKiii trains at 4seasons, the Brownings train there also. I have no "knowledge" other than watching them fight, which they are good. One is 135 lbs and the other 155.
They held the American Fight League non-pro belts. They are in their twenties, don't know how long they have been training but guess that it is less than 5 years.
I know this doesn't answer your question, but what I have seen is the ground fighter wins more often earlier in their training vs a striker in mma. As the training progress, it is the more rounded fighter that will win or as Bruce Lee said something like there are three distances in a fight. Striking, standing grappling and on the ground grappling. The fighter who forces the other fighter to fight at his distance will win more often.

[tattooedmonk]

Most schools take stuff from the forms and drill it. That's the traditional method. But if you spend the majority of your time working the form or learning new forms, and only a small portion of your time drilling, then obviously you will be much better at performing than you will be at applying.This is correct , but do not assume that SD is more forms focused and not application focused just because there are a lot of forms to learn in the curriculum. In the early days of the LA based CSC school we fought and drilled everything long before we learned forms. Forms were an after thought.

Speaking of TMA, Did any of you guys watch GSP destroy Matt Serra? Tonights fights were off the hook!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

But if you spend the majority of your time working the form or learning new forms, and only a small portion of your time drilling, then obviously you will be much better at performing than you will be at applying.

Well, SD has never been accused of that, man...LOL....

I do think we tend to stress variety over specificity, but performance really seems to be the only thing to take a hit. It depends on the school and the focus of the teacher. Luckily, I have a teacher that provides plenty of technique drills and offers great insights when you're ready to hear them.

But I see the value in forms. I'm about to enter into a long period of solo training, so I'm going to work for that incredible speed in my forms with great structure. I'll see what happens. I plan on really getting into the differences in styles and nuances of angles, etc.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Did my first kip up yesterday. It was actually really easy, and I can do them effortlessly now. All I had to do was make sure I straightened my knees when I rolled back and it was easy as pie.........and I laughed because that little knee-jerk reaction was all I needed to do and I could have been doing 'em since day one.:D

[MasterKiller]

KC/TTM,

Can you guys tell me what an average class you run looks like?

This is what we do, generally.

Circuit warm-ups (10 minutes).

Pummeling (3 to 5 minutes).

Drill applications. One of the coaches demonstrates a technique, everyone partners up and drills it against their opponent about 30%. We go over three or four techniques each class. (25 minutes).

More resistance. If we are striking, at this point we put on protective equipment. We change partners and work the techniques with more resistance (50-60%). I use an interval timer (usually 2 minute rounds) and everyone works until the round is over. (25 minutes).

Live sparring. After a short rest period we run live rounds, using various intervals. If we are striking, we generally run 3 minute rounds. Grappling-only rounds are usually 5 to 6 minutes. Most of time, everyone fights 2 or 3 consecutive rounds in a round-robin rotation, then has to do one round on the heavy bag before they can rest. (25 minutes).

Cool down. Immediately after sparring, we run Tabata or HIIT rounds (5 minutes).

This is vastly different than how a typical TMA program is taught.

[BentMonk]

Most schools take stuff from the forms and drill it. That's the traditional method. But if you spend the majority of your time working the form or learning new forms, and only a small portion of your time drilling, then obviously you will be much better at performing than you will be at applying.

I agree completely. At our club you can have it either way. We have those who are seriously into the practical applications of what they are learning, and those who want the form because they're an interesting aerobic working. A concerted effort is made by our instructors to give equal time to both. It works out pretty well more often than not.

[kwaichang]

A class i would teach has many components dependant upon the # of people I like to have 5,7 , 9 , or 11. That way I can work in too.

a. warm up 10 -15 minutes
b. short forms 1-2 x with emphasis on form/low stances 1st round and then speed
c. forms for the day 3-4x each
d. revove tech train with a partener for application
e. take techniques free drill for student to apply own concept
f. take student concept and refine.
g sparring different types though, Ie: animal ground work allowed, kicking against hand hands against feet , hands against hands etc.
h. punching drills focus mits kicking shield stationary and moving sparring the shield etc.
Cond at end for strength endurance. this w/o cycles and emphasis is placed on students short comings individually KC

[MasterKiller]

A class i would teach has many components dependant upon the # of people I like to have 5,7 , 9 , or 11. That way I can work in too.

a. warm up 10 -15 minutes
b. short forms 1-2 x with emphasis on form/low stances 1st round and then speed
c. forms for the day 3-4x each
d. revove tech train with a partener for application
e. take techniques free drill for student to apply own concept
f. take student concept and refine.
g sparring different types though, Ie: animal ground work allowed, kicking against hand hands against feet , hands against hands etc.
h. punching drills focus mits kicking shield stationary and moving sparring the shield etc.
Cond at end for strength endurance. this w/o cycles and emphasis is placed on students short comings individually KC

How long is a typical class?

How much time do you spend working/teaching forms in an average class?

[kwaichang]

1-2 hours Form time is dependant upon the forms being done and if they know them or not I will admit some forms have more meat than fries. KC

[BM2]

I believe the typical class starts with 10 minutes of warm ups for the upper, core and legs followed by streching. We then did forms for about 20 minutes. We would work some on a new form followed by 5 to 15 minutes of sparring. Class lasted an hour. When we didn't work on new material, we would kick/punch on the sheilds, conditioned, sparred the remaing 30 minutes.
You could look at the schedules of schools and see that three classes are taught at night usually starting at 6 and ending at 9. I usually did two classes and helped my instructor.
Then I met my wife:p and class time was reduced.

[Judge Pen]

JP...and to whomever else in SD......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Pen

The elephent in the room is the fact that many people who train in forms do not also drill and train with live resistance. But that's not what my point has ever been about .

MY Question.....Do you train in drills and with live resistance?? Have you always trained in this manner?? Are your drills based on movements taken directly out of your forms??

I do and I have, but it hasn't always been that way. I have done it more since I've moved to Tennessee and started training with the Mullins'. My first teacher was more about conditioning and fighting. Not as much with the drilling of applicaiton.

[mkriii]

Did my first kip up yesterday. It was actually really easy, and I can do them effortlessly now. All I had to do was make sure I straightened my knees when I rolled back and it was easy as pie.........and I laughed because that little knee-jerk reaction was all I needed to do and I could have been doing 'em since day one.:D

Are you doing your kip ups with hands or no hands. Try doing them with no hands. When you roll back on your back and your feet are behind your head, push up on your knees with your hands. the rest of the kip up is the same as how you do them with hands (as far as the knee and leg part goes).

[mkriii]

KC/TTM,

Can you guys tell me what an average class you run looks like?

This is what we do, generally.

Circuit warm-ups (10 minutes).

Pummeling (3 to 5 minutes).

Drill applications. One of the coaches demonstrates a technique, everyone partners up and drills it against their opponent about 30%. We go over three or four techniques each class. (25 minutes).

More resistance. If we are striking, at this point we put on protective equipment. We change partners and work the techniques with more resistance (50-60%). I use an interval timer (usually 2 minute rounds) and everyone works until the round is over. (25 minutes).

Live sparring. After a short rest period we run live rounds, using various intervals. If we are striking, we generally run 3 minute rounds. Grappling-only rounds are usually 5 to 6 minutes. Most of time, everyone fights 2 or 3 consecutive rounds in a round-robin rotation, then has to do one round on the heavy bag before they can rest. (25 minutes).

Cool down. Immediately after sparring, we run Tabata or HIIT rounds (5 minutes). This is vastly different than how a typical TMA program is taught.


When I teach class we usually do 10 minutes of warm ups. Then do 5 - 10 minutes stretching. Then 5-10 minutes of kicks and strikes. Then we partner up and go over self defense techniques such as escaping a wrist grab or hair grab, escape from a head lock, etc...... I'll teach one or two new self defense techniques. Then if its the night to sparr then i have two students get up to sparr for about 5 minutes. Then I get 2 more up to sparr. I do this untill all have sparred. At the end of class we stretch for 5 minutes then stand up and bow out. If its forms night then I go over the form they are learning and walk around and correct anyone I see doing something wrong. I then teach them 3 or 4 new moves of the form. I let them work on that for about 15 to 20 minutes then I have them sit against the wall and I call them up one at a time to do the form. then we all bow out.

[mkriii]

Wookie......hows the kip ups going?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Better. Good tips, thanks.

[Yao Sing]

So, is Shaolin Do for real? Just thought I'd ask, plus maybe I'll be the first on page 600.

[kwaichang]

Yes Yes Yes U betcha KC

[kungfujunky]

i think so

[kungfujunky]

question for any old timers

i am looking for video of gmt doing pa kua so i can match it to what i was taught

anyone able to help out?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I was always skeptical, but if we're talking about the base of the MA's they teach, the techniques, application, character, philosophy, meditations, and the sense of brotherhood---yeah, it's for real.

[kwaichang]

Which Pa Kua Dragon, Snake, 8 Animal ,Classical ???? KC:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Has anyone seen any of the Golden Snake yet? I heard some of you guys saw a little of it....how would you describe it?

[Judge Pen]

Has anyone seen any of the Golden Snake yet? I heard some of you guys saw a little of it....how would you describe it?

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

Seriously, I haven't seen it. I'm not sure if the Elder Masters have or not, but we could always speculate! :p

[Judge Pen]

question for any old timers

i am looking for video of gmt doing pa kua so i can match it to what i was taught

anyone able to help out?

The old KET has some classical pa kua on it, but I don't think its enough to be reference quality.

[Baqualin]

Has anyone seen any of the Golden Snake yet? I heard some of you guys saw a little of it....how would you describe it?

The second half of the Yin side of meteor fist is the precursor to the Golden Snake system......it's pretty much all golden snake postures. It's my favorite part of Meteor Fist.....really cool.
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

The old KET has some classical pa kua on it, but I don't think its enough to be reference quality.

KET isn't releasing any of that old material, because it's too old and they don't have it archived anymore......LOL.......I asked 'em awhile back, b/c I think the seminars I've received on DVD are pretty good and am looking for more.

[Judge Pen]

KET isn't releasing any of that old material, because it's too old and they don't have it archived anymore......LOL.......I asked 'em awhile back, b/c I think the seminars I've received on DVD are pretty good and am looking for more.

It's been about 5 years since I got a copy from them. PM me.

[mkriii]

I wonder if the "Golden Snake" form that you SD guys do is similiar to the "Golden Bamboo Viper" snake form that is from the Ng Family Style Kung Fu (Grandmaster John Wing Loc Ng)? Why do they call it Golden, does anyone know?

[Baqualin]

question for any old timers

i am looking for video of gmt doing pa kua so i can match it to what i was taught

anyone able to help out?

Don't you guys have access to videos through your school (mates):confused:
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

It's been about 5 years since I got a copy from them. PM me.I called a couple of weeks back and was told the same thing. I wish I could get a hold of a copy of that series again.My tapes are messed up . I believe it was MES and EMBL doing the Bagua set, correct?? I loved that series. Master Hiang's lesson on the nunchucku was classic. Do you remember that one?

[kungfujunky]

i have a copy of the old ket vids

cool stuff

and out west here we never got videos of gmt doing any of the lower black belt material. only upper level stuff at the seminars

[Shaolin Wookie]

How do you guys (or even do you at all) apply the "twist hit" we use in our short forms, etc.?

I do them in my own way, as an angular attack when shifting weight, cutting angles, or side stepping onto one leg and rocking forward to close distance, doing so off of a strong overhand punch, or as the "two" of a one-two combo beginng with the back hand rather than lead (the straight back-hand punch forces them to react linearly, while the rocking forward gives momentum to the lead's twist-hit and allows it to come from outside the opponent's field of vision). Generally, I have to admit, I use them as a more angular attack rather than as a linear strike. It comes from the outside and a downward angle, and is sometimes hard for people to react to--at least that's my experience with it. Good for the side of the head, ear, and nose if they're about your height. I suppose (although I generally avoid the neck in sparring) it would be good for catching hte side of the neck/throat.

I've always liked this punch/strike, but I don't see it used much inside/outside our system.

How do you guys apply that strike, and how do you vary it? I've always assumed it was, in the form, like hammer-fisting the back of an opponent's head/neck if you've landed a good shot to their gut with a kick, or, if you're holding onto their opposite arm as you kick them in the gut, pushing out with the kick to lower their torso/head and landing a solid shot to the back/side of the head.

It's a really versatile strike with a lot of potential, and has a quality of wildness that is always good for a solid shot.

[tattooedmonk]

How do you guys (or even do you at all) apply the "twist hit" we use in our short forms, etc.?

I do them in my own way, as an angular attack when shifting weight, cutting angles, or side stepping onto one leg and rocking forward to close distance, doing so off of a strong overhand punch, or as the "two" of a one-two combo beginng with the back hand rather than lead (the straight back-hand punch forces them to react linearly, while the rocking forward gives momentum to the lead's twist-hit and allows it to come from outside the opponent's field of vision). Generally, I have to admit, I use them as a more angular attack rather than as a linear strike. It comes from the outside and a downward angle, and is sometimes hard for people to react to--at least that's my experience with it. Good for the side of the head, ear, and nose if they're about your height. I suppose (although I generally avoid the neck in sparring) it would be good for catching hte side of the neck/throat.

I've always liked this punch/strike, but I don't see it used much inside/outside our system.:D

How do you guys apply that strike, and how do you vary it? I've always assumed it was, in the form, like hammer-fisting the back of an opponent's head/neck if you've landed a good shot to their gut with a kick, or, if you're holding onto their opposite arm as you kick them in the gut, pushing out with the kick to lower their torso/head and landing a solid shot to the back/side of the head.

It's a really versatile strike with a lot of potential, and has a quality of wildness that is always good for a solid shot.I agree with all your definitions, explanation and apps.

It is very effect , natural yet seems like an unorthodox technique.

Using it at various distances is great. The torso and head are naturally targets . You can do it at either the wrist , elbow or the shoulder, thats only applying it to arms , try using it on legs/ kicks. .:D I believe it utilizes economy of motion and biomechanics perfectly to achieve the desired result.

It is the bread and butter of what we do!!!

I wonder how it would work against a grappler?:D Have you tried to use it for grappling yet?

[BM2]

Are y'all talking about the backfist?

[Shaolin Wookie]

No, the kind-of wild, downward, inside-slashing twisting-knuckle hit. I think some schools practice it more like a downward striking backfist from what I've seen, but then I'd say they were doing it retarded, LOL....

If you work it off the side step or a circling movement, rising up on one leg, you can get a sweet angle and strike oh so quick. The way I tend to use it, it almost looks like a hammerfisting motion, but for the angle. You can do it in any stance really--sparring, bow, anything.....depending on how you're ranging it. It just takes too long from those rooted stances if you're moving forward. But against advancing, hard-punching opponents that are dishing to your dome, it's a nice counter strike to get them off their path to your brain.

I get criticized sometimes by the "outside looping attacks never work" kind of cats that tend to make the rounds in kung fu schools (since only straight line attacks ever work....LOL), including SD, but don't seem to block those outside looping attacks very well...LOL.....ironic, eh?

As long as you keep the elbow underneath the fist and bring it across the chest in conjunction with the fist, it covers the centerline as well to protect counter punches. But a follow-through is almost warranted in this case. (If you're far enough off line and have circled away from the lead hand to take away its sting).

[BM2]

Youtube it ?

[kungfujunky]

lohan #2

block punch block down block punch twist hit kick

[Shaolin Wookie]

Youtube it ?

Sorry, I don't have that technology. I don't have vid capture on my computer so I can't even get my digital recorder to work with it.

I'll try to describe it better, since I know you have some SD left in you whether you like it or not....LOL...jk...

For the sake of simplicity, stand in a front stance or a normal fighting stance with the right side forward, and throw your rear hand while you protect with your right (you can either high block, or, as I would recommend, draw it up to protect your chin and no further [elbow kind of ****ed out to the side]), then follow on that punch with your forward hand (currently at your chin) by dropping your elbow and throwing it forward like you're about to hammerfist his head, only rotate as you strike out so you hit with the knuckles. You've really got to twist your torso, and you can stomp forward to get your weight behind it, like you're tying to crack his skull with a hammer. If you're rotating to the inside, you'll get a shot at his face/head, even if he ducks or bobs his head. The strike covers too much range to dodge completely, unless of course, you're fighting a really good fighter.....but even then....

I add pure brawn to the strike, but then, I'm not a delicate "ward off" kind of guy. Sometimes pure brawn is the answer...LOL...

If you're rotating off of his lead hand (if he's standing right side forward, you circle to your right to stay off of his jab and watch for his rear hand....I wouldn't recommend that if he's right handed and in a left-forward stance, as you can prob. take his left since it won't have as much meat on it, when I would then recommend moving to the outside and switching to hte one-legged stance, which would force his power hand to come across his body at an angle tought to generate power from, and you'll have hit him stronlgy by then anyways.)...well, if you're rotating off of his lead hand to the inside and he blocks with his lead hand, you've got a good shot if you make it quick enough, or wide enough. Sometimes you can really cut the line if your elbow catchis his lead arm, which leaves him wide open. Generally, an opponent extends too much for the deflection, even if it's a slap, which allows for that looping strike.

But then, I'm no pro. But if you throw this tech. on a bag with both hands and familiarize yourself with how to throw it on moving partners, it's a good power strike and can get you out of a jam.

You can chain it off of a jab with the same hand, since it doesn't require a chamber, just a forward step/stomp to generate momentum. Use at your own risk, though, as you'll probably get hit--but then, it's like triage. You can take that hit because yours is going to hit with a lot more power.

I would never, ever lead with it, unless fighting a timid fighter. Also, you can't do it like you do it in the short forms, but then, I think the short forms show it in its correct context, and the raised leg (or kick) challenges you to collapse your center crosswise to get that great one-legged power strike....you just have to modify it to reality....but then, that goes with everything.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Cliff's notes: a hook, only wilder, and coming on like a hammerfist. The wildness of it is what gives it speed. Only, it's actually controlled. It just looks wild b/c it's unorthodox, but then, that's why I like SD. It's unorthodox sometimes. This shot has massive reach. If you strike or miss, it doesn't matter, cuz you can bring the back elbow/hammerfist combo back just as quick and make the return strike pay off.

Depending on the angle, a hammerfist w/o the rotation is just as good.

[Golden Tiger]

block punch block down block punch twist hit kick

We refer to that as the hit part of a hit kick. Never seen the twist part. And I have seen it used 2 ways. Striking off the block as a hammer but more as a backfist, snapping the wrist at the last moment to strike with the knuckles and also dropping it down and thrusting it out, like a jab, and striking palm up with the knuckles. Either or works...

[BM2]

I understand it as GT described it. I try to see other's take on things as well as the standard ( correct;) ha ha joking). Things get stale.

[kwaichang]

Well I think I know what you mean when you say twist hit. The tech is dependant upon the range it can lock down and break one or both arms or can double blosk dbl punches and break or it can just block and punch someone or it can block with the initial punch as you grab with the back arm then counter or if you use the Wing Chun or White crane concept the twist hit assumes the center line and deflects an oncoming attack as you grab and kick simultaneously. of course there are more but I dont type well KC

[BM2]

Have y'all hit a heavy bag with the "slashing fist"? What type of power do you generate compared to other punches?

[kwaichang]

I dont think power is the focus for the Leopard Slashing fist as in 5 animal and Leopard fist. KC

[BM2]

F=M.A
Pressure points.

[kwaichang]

From a Biomechanical stand point hitting a Heavy bag with some techniques is not too smart if you hit with force > 75%. Such as Round House kicks etc unless it is a water filled bag and not a cotton with a sand Core. Some MA tech put the Joints at risk if you strike a Hard surface. The leopard Slashing strike is a "raking Tech" where the speed and glancing force of the points is the "focus" of the tech. KC

[Freebird]

Greetings everyone, my appologies for butting in. However I have reached a delima, the local MA place is shaolin do, of course i live in kentucky, i went for a viewing to see thier forms and watch the movements to see if it would be right for me. I have back problems from lifting a crate that was supposed to be empty but was filled with copper plates, also caused degernative disc disease to progress even faster and have lost nearly an inch of my hight thus far.

What i am asking is there any other alternatives to learn martial arts rather than going to the only place available to you? The shaolin do here looked very sloppy, brown belts are very sloppy and wobbly, the older blackbelts seem to have better form, but the room is just way too small for it and i do not think the respect and discipline are practiced very well there. There was a Teenager swinging a sword around while little kids were walking behind him. Sloppy very sloppy. I know this doesnt reflect on the other schools, but this one just is not my cup of tea. Any training videos with step by step lessions or anything would help.

Thanks in advance,

Freebird

[Baqualin]

Greetings everyone, my appologies for butting in. However I have reached a delima, the local MA place is shaolin do, of course i live in kentucky, i went for a viewing to see thier forms and watch the movements to see if it would be right for me. I have back problems from lifting a crate that was supposed to be empty but was filled with copper plates, also caused degernative disc disease to progress even faster and have lost nearly an inch of my hight thus far.

What i am asking is there any other alternatives to learn martial arts rather than going to the only place available to you? The shaolin do here looked very sloppy, brown belts are very sloppy and wobbly, the older blackbelts seem to have better form, but the room is just way too small for it and i do not think the respect and discipline are practiced very well there. There was a Teenager swinging a sword around while little kids were walking behind him. Sloppy very sloppy. I know this doesnt reflect on the other schools, but this one just is not my cup of tea. Any training videos with step by step lessions or anything would help.

Thanks in advance,

Freebird

Where are you in Ky?

[BentMonk]

Freebird - PM me. I may be able to help you out.

[Freebird]

I would post that, but i dont want any greif really, just want to know if there are any alternatives. I probably live 100miles west of you if lexington is where you live. I dont wanna get this place in trouble, i just want to know if there are any alternatives. The people training there really like it there and you can tell they are happy with thier accomplishments when you talk to them. We viewed we discussed, i found this site, and am looking for insght.

I am a father of 2 and married, i want my family involved to help keep us all interested in going and continuing training. There are some other martial arts places in louisville and the like but driving in a vehicle for nearly an hour kills me. So i live in the boonies ( hills, country, boondocks). Ive seen on this site and others and even googled for styles of kung fu tai chi and the such, just not sure what would be the best. I am not wanting to learn Japanese martial arts. Nothing against them, but i just like the chinese styles. I dont expect to go out here take a flying leap and land in the top of a tree or anything, but, lol, i would like to gain better physical and mental strength with the art.

Just want schools that sell instructional videos (dvd perferred) so i can start and get my family into it aswell. If you guys & gals can list a few that are legit and not somekinda hyped up marketing gimmick, which im not sure what im looking for on google, then it would be really really helpful.

Thanks again,

Freebird


BentMonk i sent you a PM, didnt see your message till after i posted this one.

[shen ku]

freebird i am curious as to where you are located, as to what all is around you, just send a message. i am also really curious about the school you spoke of? my school is about 100 west of lexington?? i hope it wasnt me:eek:

[Freebird]

hehe, that is the reason i will not name the place, Its not the teacher, he can only do so much ya know? Well on the side of removing the studens from the building, which would not be good since there really are not alot of students there to begin with, its a small place. My wife just said its like adhd kids bouncing off the walls .. They were full of energy not listening and being careless. She says the same thing i do he can only do so much without actully having to remove the children al together. It could be this way with many schools.. I guess i expected to go in there to see well disciplined & trained people, rather than kids running around wrestling, bouncing superballs lol.. He could be laxed (relaxed) about that stuff though. Didnt seem to bother him too much really. I just dont wanna be amongst it.

[BM2]

I have ADD but with age the hyper has slowed downed although being around loud background noise gets me going. It sucks and my eldest son has it too.
Someone needs to forward Freebird's message to all the SD instructors.
Trouble is, there are people who teach that really are not good. I have seen small clubs with excellent instructors and large schools with less than impressive instruction and the other way around too.
My instructor never had much more than twenty people and he was one of the best, albeit he was not as high a rank as many. So you can not base it on rank either. And some of higher rank may not be that good. I know that statement will upset some but I heard the top two BB say that.

[Freebird]

Is this place legit? If not please let me know, cause it looks cool.. Again i dont know what im looking for lol.. http://www.shaolin.com.au/cyber.html

[mkriii]

Looks lame to me.

[MasterKiller]

Wing Lam:
http://www.wle.com/store/winglamVideos.html

Doc Fai Wong:
http://plumblossom.net/distance.html

I've never done either, but they seem to get good reviews. Doc Fai Wong actually corresponds with his distance students, which sounds pretty cool.

[Freebird]

Thanks MK ill get to looking at them. Also if anyone else know of any that are worthwhile please add them, a good variety of martial arts to look at would be cool.. I dont wanna just jump into a martial art, i wanna read and see videos of the styles. Ill go to youtube and get a general idea of these styles in this page.

Thanks again,

-Freebird

[Judge Pen]

Thanks MK ill get to looking at them. Also if anyone else know of any that are worthwhile please add them, a good variety of martial arts to look at would be cool.. I dont wanna just jump into a martial art, i wanna read and see videos of the styles. Ill go to youtube and get a general idea of these styles in this page.

Thanks again,

-Freebird

I know a very good martial artist that does the Doc Fai Wong program. He raves about it.

[Freebird]

Nice thanks, Also is it possible to learn both meaning can i learn Tai Chi along with this, cause strengthing the body is what im about too. My back is very weak compared to 5 yrs ago when i used to be a Roofer and packing shingles. I still have alot of muscle mass, but my back is no where near in shape to what it used to be. Ive favored my back since my spine shifted when i lifted that heavy box up. I couldnt walk for nearly a month after that. So i favored my back alot, when you lose your legs it does something to you mentally. It put a hella fear in me.

So basically is it logical to learn both or just the 1. Again im new at this.

[MasterKiller]

Nice thanks, Also is it possible to learn both meaning can i learn Tai Chi along with this, cause strengthing the body is what im about too. My back is very weak compared to 5 yrs ago when i used to be a Roofer and packing shingles. I still have alot of muscle mass, but my back is no where near in shape to what it used to be. Ive favored my back since my spine shifted when i lifted that heavy box up. I couldnt walk for nearly a month after that. So i favored my back alot, when you lose your legs it does something to you mentally. It put a hella fear in me.

So basically is it logical to learn both or just the 1. Again im new at this.

These questions would be better suited for the main forum (kung fu forum). Post a new thread and you'll get a better variety of responses there.

[Baqualin]

Nice thanks, Also is it possible to learn both meaning can i learn Tai Chi along with this, cause strengthing the body is what im about too. My back is very weak compared to 5 yrs ago when i used to be a Roofer and packing shingles. I still have alot of muscle mass, but my back is no where near in shape to what it used to be. Ive favored my back since my spine shifted when i lifted that heavy box up. I couldnt walk for nearly a month after that. So i favored my back alot, when you lose your legs it does something to you mentally. It put a hella fear in me.

So basically is it logical to learn both or just the 1. Again im new at this.

Hey,
If you want to make your back stronger and increase your general overall health I would recommend that you look hard at Tai Chi and Pa Kua. .....it's still very martial if you find the right teachers (Pa Kua is really nasty). I had the same problems with my back...I was down for 6 weeks and had numbness in my toes for 2 years....it would go out on me constantly until I focused on the Internal side ....hasn't gone out for 5 years......now I teach it. The harder styles can constantly mess with your back....gets worse with age.

By the way....have you thought of taking private lessons from your instructor.....most will do that and it gives them an opportunity to learn what you can and can't do.

Last.....try the Tai Chi forum here.....the people on there are very nice, knowledgeable and informative.
Best of luck to you,
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

Is this place legit? If not please let me know, cause it looks cool.. Again i dont know what im looking for lol.. http://www.shaolin.com.au/cyber.html

Did anyone notice the gut, i mean "chi belly", on the grandmaster "z". That thing was huge! I may have questions about all the new material of GM sins but the dude has stayed in great shape compared to many so called grandmasters.

[Freebird]

yeah, but ive learned a long time ago not to judge someone by thier appearance. Btw, the shaolin do instructor here is larger than grandmaster Z.


@ BQ, yeah i had problems with my left leg giving out on me and just falling to the ground while walking. Was embarressing. It drove me to being a hermit.... I still have not gotten out of the house maybe 1 time every 2 weeks to go see my parents. People laugh, yeah its funny when its not you, so i just stay away from the public when i can.. I just never have gotten out of it even though i walk fine now.. I bought a bowflex cause its easyon my back to work out on, but it just doesnt seem to be helping at all really.. Some things just cant be fixed i guess, but they can be worked around. Which are my intentions of learning martial arts. Atleast help me gain back some self esteem and feel better about myself ya know?

[Baqualin]

yeah, but ive learned a long time ago not to judge someone by thier appearance. Btw, the shaolin do instructor here is larger than grandmaster Z.


@ BQ, yeah i had problems with my left leg giving out on me and just falling to the ground while walking. Was embarressing. It drove me to being a hermit.... I still have not gotten out of the house maybe 1 time every 2 weeks to go see my parents. People laugh, yeah its funny when its not you, so i just stay away from the public when i can.. I just never have gotten out of it even though i walk fine now.. I bought a bowflex cause its easyon my back to work out on, but it just doesnt seem to be helping at all really.. Some things just cant be fixed i guess, but they can be worked around. Which are my intentions of learning martial arts. Atleast help me gain back some self esteem and feel better about myself ya know?

If your still in that bad of shape you need to stay away from high impact...it will only hurt you worse...Tai Chi is the way to go....after you have seen a physician and they give you therapy .........KC can weigh in on this....he's a PT........Bad BACKS are not something that you fool around with.
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

yeah, but ive learned a long time ago not to judge someone by thier appearance. Btw, the shaolin do instructor here is larger than grandmaster Z.


@ BQ, yeah i had problems with my left leg giving out on me and just falling to the ground while walking. Was embarressing. It drove me to being a hermit.... I still have not gotten out of the house maybe 1 time every 2 weeks to go see my parents. People laugh, yeah its funny when its not you, so i just stay away from the public when i can.. I just never have gotten out of it even though i walk fine now.. I bought a bowflex cause its easyon my back to work out on, but it just doesnt seem to be helping at all really.. Some things just cant be fixed i guess, but they can be worked around. Which are my intentions of learning martial arts. Atleast help me gain back some self esteem and feel better about myself ya know?

But weren't you judging the SD school by the appearance of the young students? The truth is all schools are judge by their appearance. If the SD guy is fatter than that z guy i would stay away. Just because of the fact he doesn't practice what he teaches. What kind of example does he set for the younger students? I went to a taekwondo school once, went in to the school to meet the teacher and he had this huge gut! He couldn't even kick above his waist, but he was supposed to be teaching taekwondo, a kicking art! So in reality appearance means alot weather we like it or not.

[Freebird]

Well, frankly it wasnt the judging by appearance it was judging by actions, how can you concentrate on what you need to learn with kids yelling and wrestling amongst you? That is what i said, and i do not wish to be around it. Yeah he was quite large, but still does not prove that he cannot do something or he would not have won his 3rd bb recently. I was just looking at the school, not as a whole, but as what i didnt want to deal with or be around.

@ BQ, no my back is not as bad as it used to be, i actually act quite silly at times and do silly wannabe kung fu acrobatic moves lol.. But the public eye bothers me. its something i grew into after injury, im just saying some days im down and can barely walk, weather maybe, artritis and degen disc disease tend to hurt like hell at times. I want to learn at my own pace, and im not sure i want to learn from him privately, ive seen him do nothing but iron hand and forearm training on Youtube. Even at the 2 viewings i went to, he really done nothing but told the students what moves to do.

Let me edit this one more time, When i talk about the worse parts of my back problems that was near 2 yrs ago. My back is weak Now, but the major problems i used to have was back then. , I want to strengthen and gain flexability along with find ways to work around the bad parts and help motivate me when i am in pain, i have seen physical therapists.. They run those vibrating things on my back to shatter the bone spurs i had on my spine. My spine has straightened back up, but before it had i would fall while walking, not anylonger though. I know i tend to get things jumbled up and my appologies for that.. I dont want peeps to feel sorry for me nor laugh at me lol.. but hell it happens. Im just looking for a way to gain self respect and learn my body better other than looking in the mirror. I feel that martial arts can help me achieve this, and release me of my self doubt........... I need guidance.

Thanks,

Freebird
Sorry i wrote youtube, it was myspace.

[Baqualin]

Well, frankly it wasnt the judging by appearance it was judging by actions, how can you concentrate on what you need to learn with kids yelling and wrestling amongst you? That is what i said, and i do not wish to be around it. Yeah he was quite large, but still does not prove that he cannot do something or he would not have won his 3rd bb recently. I was just looking at the school, not as a whole, but as what i didnt want to deal with or be around.

@ BQ, no my back is not as bad as it used to be, i actually act quite silly at times and do silly wannabe kung fu acrobatic moves lol.. But the public eye bothers me. its something i grew into after injury, im just saying some days im down and can barely walk, weather maybe, artritis and degen disc disease tend to hurt like hell at times. I want to learn at my own pace, and im not sure i want to learn from him privately, ive seen him do nothing but iron hand and forearm training on Youtube. Even at the 2 viewings i went to, he really done nothing but told the students what moves to do.

Let me edit this one more time, When i talk about the worse parts of my back problems that was near 2 yrs ago. My back is weak Now, but the major problems i used to have was back then. , I want to strengthen and gain flexability along with find ways to work around the bad parts and help motivate me when i am in pain, i have seen physical therapists.. They run those vibrating things on my back to shatter the bone spurs i had on my spine. My spine has straightened back up, but before it had i would fall while walking, not anylonger though. I know i tend to get things jumbled up and my appologies for that.. I dont want peeps to feel sorry for me nor laugh at me lol.. but hell it happens. Im just looking for a way to gain self respect and learn my body better other than looking in the mirror. I feel that martial arts can help me achieve this, and release me of my self doubt........... I need guidance.

Thanks,

Freebird
Sorry i wrote youtube, it was myspace.

I understand.....I still say stay away from high impact.....Tai Chi is the way for you....not trying to get you to stay in SD.....a good program of Internal Chinese martial arts will give you what you need.....strength, confidence, and health.....Tai Chi & Pa Kua have punches and kicks too. Check out the universities close to you....alot of them have Tai Chi programs. If ever in Lex. stop by the school and look me up.
Best of luck to you,
BQ

[Freebird]

hehe, Last time i was in lexington i think i passed through there a few times when i was Working at Mt. Sterling when i took on a winter job for osmose we were repairing eastern ky power poles. We went to lexingto to look at the power poles there.. But we wound up winning a contract to work in Ohio, . I live about 80 miles nw of bowling green. I may aswell tell ya i live in breckinridge co. Im origionally from Louisville, but the universities are well long way from me, and i rarely leave the house for anything. I work at home aswell. Usually only leave the house for trips to mom and dads and well when my wife begs me to. She begged me to take her to the Shaolin do place here and she has changed her mind after being there 2 times to view. Its just a small time place the guy is running, its nothing huge by all means, if im not mistaking bill leonard used to own it.. I actually contacted bill yrs ago before injuries asking about it and comps held and such cause i was a kung fu finatic, loved watching the stuff. Even as a child growing up in the early 1980s i loved watching Kung Fu fighting every friday. Always started out with my favorite song at the time, yes you guessed kung fu fighting lol.. Bruce Lee and one of jackie chans movies i seen him kick his slipper off and it went into someones mouth then he jumps down after hiding and a bycicle seat falls off and he sits on the rod.. LOL, man I want that move it was hilarious. However i know those are all movies, and i really would like to learn the Reality versoin of it.

However i am with you i am leaning more towards Tai Chi, until i know i have the ability to do more impact..

Thanks for all the help,

- Freebird

[arinathos.valin]

Heya Freebird!

I think you've given some of the SD instructors a bit of a complex wondering if it was their school you've been describing! :)

I'd agree with BQ that most places have a tai chi instructor somewhere nearby. Most are teaching it as a 'one with the universe-get in contact with your center' thing... but at least it's a start, and will hopefully get your back in tune before you try something more strenuous.

I'd also suggest you take a look at a website www.kungfu4u.com. It's run by Ken Gullette, an internal stylist with a strong concentration on Chen Tai Chi. I have a couple of his videos, and I think his "Internal Strength" DVD should be required viewing for all internal stylists... it will save you months, if not years, of wasted training. In the next few months I think he's planning on doing some 'web based training' by webcam for people who just can't get good internal training locally.

FWIW, he's actually had some SD training... achieved a brown belt back in the 'old days' before he moved away from Lexington.

BTW, a shoutout and friendly wave to Judge Pen and BQ...I keep on lurking on this board just to see if the count is getting close to 700 entries...

[BM2]

I haven't been out in your part of the woods since I was a kid. They BBQ everything out there, mutton etc. Also I recall sourgham that was made and I still enjoy on biscuits, ruhbarb pies, blackberry dumplings and the cobblers too. Those paper mills used to smell just like ****.
My Mom grew up in Hawesville in Han**** County on the road that takes you to the bridge. I recall when it was a ferry that took you across to Tell City IN and having to wait on it each way. She had family in Lewisport, Cloverport in KY and Tell City over in IN.

Seems as if the program doesn't like Hanc o c k county. Gene has to laugh at that one. Han ****, I think he might be a Han.

[mkriii]

Did anyone notice the gut, i mean "chi belly", on the grandmaster "z". That thing was huge! I may have questions about all the new material of GM sins but the dude has stayed in great shape compared to many so called grandmasters.


Yeah it's amazing how GM Sin stayed in shape over all these years. Especially when you compare him to what he loked like in the eighties. The picture of him on the web site makes him look like he is ripped. Wonder what kind of diet he went on to get that way. I'd likew to get on whatever diet it was he was on.

[Freebird]

I haven't been out in your part of the woods since I was a kid. They BBQ everything out there, mutton etc. Also I recall sourgham that was made and I still enjoy on biscuits, ruhbarb pies, blackberry dumplings and the cobblers too. Those paper mills used to smell just like ****.
My Mom grew up in Hawesville in Han**** County on the road that takes you to the bridge. I recall when it was a ferry that took you across to Tell City IN and having to wait on it each way. She had family in Lewisport, Cloverport in KY and Tell City over in IN.

Seems as if the program doesn't like Hanc o c k county. Gene has to laugh at that one. Han ****, I think he might be a Han.

LOL that is where i met my wife in cloverport.. Very small town blink and you will miss it. I used to party in Tell City Indiana, we used to kickbox there to. Nobody knew what the hell they were doing but it was fun sparring and getting bruised up like morons. Good ol days.

[mkriii]

I have never had mutton. What is it? I have seen it on the menu at this BBQ restaurant (Billy's BBQ) here in Lexington but never got it. They have the best BBQ ribs though.

[Freebird]

Lamb meat, shredded like a bbq sandwich.

[mkriii]

mmmmm, sounds good. I'll have to get it next time i go to the BBQ place.

[BM2]

To say that it has a unique odor about it while it cooks is an understament, you might not ever eat it if you smell it:) But the dumplings are the same as what is put in the chicken and dumplings only it is like a cobbler without the crust, dumplings instead. Oh is it good. I ate so much once that I was passing blue the next day:o I suppose that was the last time I had turtle was out there.
But that place has to be infested with chiggers. I could just walk to the house and get ate up with them.
I recall reading about a boat getting stuck out there at Hawesville about ten years ago, was it the Mississipi Queen? My Mom said her cousins would swim from IN as teenagers. It must be narrower there.

[BM2]

Oh yeah, back to the topic, well the topic of the day. Tai Chi is the way to go right now, at least in my humble opinion. I tore the discs at L4-L5, L5-S1 and luckly for me, the shots into my spine worked. It sounds as if you have pressure on L4-L5 due to the loss of strength in you leg. My brother also had to walk for months with a cane and had two surgeries, one to correct the first. I have problems with my knees and I have narrowing of the openings in the vertabras in my neck resulting in loss of strength in my left arm. I had to drop out of BJJ for three months to let it heal once. Almost got hooked on Hydrocodein as I needed it just to make through the night to sleep.
I am lucky to not have any of those too severe. Sure they take turns flairing up. I was very neverous about my back the most, as are you. I couldn't raise my arms past my chest when it was the worst. Never want to feel that pain again, just like that kidney stone. Until you feel real pain, you just don't understand what it is to be afraid of it again and the worry of providing for your faimly.

[Freebird]

yeah my L3 L4 and L5 vertibrates were messed up, really bad arthritis in it now.. Sometimes it swells i guess and feels like my lower half of my body is just falling off, but i deal with it. They want me to take coritizone shots or whatever it is but they are not sticking a needle in my back.. No way lol.. Some people live by them but lol ill deal with the pain for about a week or so till the swelling goes down then im good. sometimes i can feel my back shifting in that area and i just grab the counter top and let my legs hang and it stops.. I guess its realaigns it, not sure, but sure feels better once i do it. takes the pressure off my legs anway. Im with you guys Tai chi is probably best. Just finding one that i can learn from locally is the problem. Id prefer an online training and go in every so often to be checked/tested. Just notsure what all it persists of and what i need to do or who to look for.

[kwaichang]

Free bird I would start with the I Chi Ching's and do them for a while before starting active MA training they are awesome just dont push it too fast start with 5 each progressing up to 10 then so on. Dont let them goad you into too much too soon. Then start Pakua and Tai Chi Monitor your back with PaKua KC
BTW GMT got ripped on Fish and Rice and sometimes Chicken smal amountys 5x per day so I was told. KC

[Baqualin]

Free bird I would start with the I Chi Ching's and do them for a while before starting active MA training they are awesome just dont push it too fast start with 5 each progressing up to 10 then so on. Dont let them goad you into too much too soon. Then start Pakua and Tai Chi Monitor your back with PaKua KC
BTW GMT got ripped on Fish and Rice and sometimes Chicken smal amountys 5x per day so I was told. KC

He's still ripped at 65....not much different than the picture:)
BQ

[Golden Tiger]

BTW GMT got ripped on Fish and Rice and sometimes Chicken smal amountys 5x per day so I was told.


That, and working out 14 hours a day! The man was a machine back when he decided to shed the pounds and get ripped. He would invite some of us to come by the gym and workout with him...wasn't even funny. I think Master F lasted the longest with him and that was just 2 hours or so.

fish, rice, brocolli and those evil little chili's...BM2 probably remembers those 8am workouts....:cool:

[BM2]

I not sure how it's spelled but he was big on the orange roughy and shark as it wasn't so fishy but more meaty. I lost ten pounds on the diet going from 155 to 145 but it didn't rip me :eek:

[BM2]

Those shots into your spine, well for me, don't hurt at all but I was out of it for hours after the procedure. I'm a cheap drunk.

[mkriii]

I not sure how it's spelled but he was big on the orange roughy and shark as it wasn't so fishy but more meaty. I lost ten pounds on the diet going from 155 to 145 but it didn't rip me :eek:

Maybe I'll try his diet of fish and rice. You would have to eat a lot of fish to make you feel full but there is little fat in it.

[Golden Tiger]

Seems like it was 6 oz, a cup of rice and some steamed veggies 5 times a day. A couple of things at work here. One, low fat plus some veggies are neg. calories. Second, when you eat small meals over the course of the day, it tricks your body into thinking that food is abundant and theres no need to store fat (thats the theory anyway).


Good luck with it, it worked pretty good when I did it.

[Freebird]

Seems like it was 6 oz, a cup of rice and some steamed veggies 5 times a day. A couple of things at work here. One, low fat plus some veggies are neg. calories. Second, when you eat small meals over the course of the day, it tricks your body into thinking that food is abundant and theres no need to store fat (thats the theory anyway).


Good luck with it, it worked pretty good when I did it.


That is exactly what my physican told me when i had gained 30 lbs and was only eating 1 time a day My favorite mealtime was always Dinner time, i never ate breakfast and my body became accustomed to it and it was hard to get my metabolism to speed back up.... Eat small meals through out the day, took me approximatly a month to start seeing results. I had only eat 1 meal a day for about 3-4 yrs and it put me into whats called starvation mode, its where your body thinks its starving and starts storing fat from just about everything you eat.


Also let me add, i was also told that Men need atleast 1500 Calories per day *normally* to keep from going into this starvation mode, women 1200 or 1300 calories. Its been a while and vaugley remember, but some physicans and health instructors live by it. Those calories are supposed to be just what your body needs to survive, breath ect. Those calores are what you are supposed to have left after you exercises have been complete IE, if you ate 2500 calories for the day only burn off 1000 and leave the 1500 alone. This has also been stated ont he biggest loser aswell by the trainers.

[mkriii]

A friend of mine went on a similiar diet and ate only tuna and steamed rice and veggies. He stock piles the cans of tuna in spring water (Sorry Charley........LOL:D) and cans of sardines. He would use one can for each meal but he would have 5 meals a day.

[MasterKiller]

All you lame-o's forgot to wish BM2 a happy birthday. He doesn't have many more left, so you should really be more conscientious in the future.;)

[Freebird]

Well happy Birthday!

[BM2]

Thanks MK, I think:p
My wife made me an upside down cake and got me a blackberry. She told me Mom called to wish me a happy birthday and that she made me some blackberry dumplings:D
Freebird, my Grandmother was from Breckinridge County, her maiden name was Miller.

[Freebird]

Ahh cool, there are several millers here.

[shadowlin]

[QUOTE=Golden Tiger;855275]Just wondering, you have sparred most of the "old timers" in and around Lexington. How do you think they would stack up against the "Brownings", who ever they might be. I only ask because you have the knowlege of both, not to put you on the spot or anything.

MKiii trains at 4seasons, the Brownings train there also. I have no "knowledge" other than watching them fight, which they are good. One is 135 lbs and the other 155.
They held the American Fight League non-pro belts. They are in their twenties, don't know how long they have been training but guess that it is less than 5 years.
I know this doesn't answer your question, but what I have seen is the ground fighter wins more often earlier in their training vs a striker in mma. As the training progress, it is the more rounded fighter that will win or as Bruce Lee said something like there are three distances in a fight. Striking, standing grappling and on the ground grappling. The fighter who forces the other fighter to fight at his distance will win more often.

no contest I'd say the older, more experienced ones would win a FIGHT. But sparring matches are all highly dependent on style, time of day, who woke up feeling what way, what they ate, if their lives are distracting them, if they feel like winning, blah blah blah.

There are more distances than three, but those are better than not knowing any.

[Shaolin Wookie]

yeah, but ive learned a long time ago not to judge someone by thier appearance. Btw, the shaolin do instructor here is larger than grandmaster Z.




I agree, you don't have to be in great shape to be to defend yourself. But, honestly, if you practice every day if you're an MA instructor, you will be in good shape, even if it's only for an hour.

I think it is fair to judge the physical specimens of any school. You'll get a good picture of the work ethics of those students and teachers who will be training you.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I understand.....I still say stay away from high impact.....Tai Chi is the way for you....not trying to get you to stay in SD.....a good program of Internal Chinese martial arts will give you what you need.....strength, confidence, and health.....Tai Chi & Pa Kua have punches and kicks too. Check out the universities close to you....alot of them have Tai Chi programs. If ever in Lex. stop by the school and look me up.
Best of luck to you,
BQ

LOL....university tai chi and MA programs are generally garbage...at least they are down here.

GSU's Yang was the best seminar they had; just about everything else was retarded. Can you imagine doing an MA with no contact and compliance to every non-compliance hold? Maybe it's pride, but if someone grabs my hand in chin-na or in one of those university seminars, and they don't do the technique correctly, and don't apply the correct force, I don't give it to 'em. I'll let them stand there, holding my hand, looking like a fool.:D

[BM2]

[QUOTE=shadowlin

There are more distances than three, but those are better than not knowing any.[/QUOTE]



Yeah, there is but I wasn't going to count the CHi Blast distance.:p

[Golden Tiger]

Yeah, there is but I wasn't going to count the CHi Blast distance

And why not count that? Thats my # 1 technique!

Happy B-day by the way. Thats one good thing about me getting old...knowing that theres someone out there older than me :D

[BM2]

Yeah, GT, but some how you're using dog years!
Breakfest was oatmeal with the whites from hardboiled eggs. Also he sold us Hot Stuff at cost.
I'm waay past going back to that diet:(

[BM2]

I think that MK may have posted on the main fourm a birthday greeting, he just deleted it before anyone saw it;)

[BM2]

Ahh cool, there are several millers here.

There should be, my grandmother was the 11th of 12 children!

[Freebird]

LOL sounds like my family, my grandad had 16 children, my dad was born when my grandad was in his 60s.

[shadowlin]

Yeah, there is but I wasn't going to count the CHi Blast distance.:p

:rolleyes:

I mean that there are 4 main ones and a myriad of sub-distances (of course infinite, but in terms of practicality there are at least three per main distance, except with single distance there are 5 at least) and that's just for empty hand to empty hand.
Weapons change everything, but the concept is still there.

I appreciate Bruce's expression of distance, but unfortunately, it's just not scientific enough to represent actuality. It's more subjective, which is fine. But not for my tastes.

[tattooedmonk]

I have recently been having people on this board saying things about me on this board and behind my back that I do not like. Many of them are personal to me and NO one's business but my own. If you want to know something ask , if you say something or tell others make sure it was true , and last but not least have the B A L L S enough to come to me about it. .

Basically F U C K YOU!!!


And for any one that wants some, bring a first-aid box and a lunch . Your going to need the first aid and I will be hungry!!!

[Old Noob]

I have recently been having people on this board saying things about me on this board and behind my back that I do not like. Many of them are personal to me and NO one's business but my own. If you want to know something ask , if you say something or tell others make sure it was true , and last but not least have the B A L L S enough to come to me about it. .

Basically F U C K YOU!!!


And for any one that wants some, bring a first-aid box and a lunch . Your going to need the first aid and I will be hungry!!!

I guess this is what's known as a thread-grenade...

[unkokusai]

...don't tell him I said so...but that tatooedmonk guy is an *******...





...pass it on..

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have recently been having people on this board saying things about me on this board and behind my back that I do not like. Many of them are personal to me and NO one's business but my own. If you want to know something ask , if you say something or tell others make sure it was true , and last but not least have the B A L L S enough to come to me about it. .

Basically F U C K YOU!!!


And for any one that wants some, bring a first-aid box and a lunch . Your going to need the first aid and I will be hungry!!!

Dude, if you have something to say, say it.
Don't beat around the bush, tells us how you really feel.

[Judge Pen]

Here's a story about children who suffer strokes (a rare occurrence). My friend runs his own school here in Knoxville and this child's parents brought him for private lessons when they were dissatisfied with the therapy the child was getting. He's doing pretty good and here's a local news story on Andrew, his stroke and his recovery so far.


http://www.volunteertv.com/home/headlines/18668019.html

[BentMonk]

That was awesome JP. I'd like to meet that young man and his instructor some time.

[Judge Pen]

That was awesome JP. I'd like to meet that young man and his instructor some time. You're welcome anytime in Knoxville. Daniel's a good instructor. It would be good for Andrew to see someone like yourself too.

[DPL]

Inspiring story - thanks for posting that JP.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's a story about children who suffer strokes (a rare occurrence). My friend runs his own school here in Knoxville and this child's parents brought him for private lessons when they were dissatisfied with the therapy the child was getting. He's doing pretty good and here's a local news story on Andrew, his stroke and his recovery so far.


http://www.volunteertv.com/home/headlines/18668019.html

We had a young dude that had just recovered from a brain tumor, I believe, who had been through kemotherapy. The story was in the local newspaper. I remember when he first walked through the doors of SD. I think I was teaching him his first day's material, and he had trouble with basic coordination. I would tell him to step forward with his right foot, punch with his right hand, etc....you know, the basics. Well, he had a hard time getting his body to respond. In six months, this kid was doing things I don't think he thought he'd do ever again. Now, he's as coordinated as any of the other students and can remember all of his forms correctly.

That's cool stuff when you see it firsthand.

[kwaichang]

The brain can be termed as plastic and young people lay down tracks much easier than older folks that is why they have a more complete recovery post stroke or TBI. The cool thing about our 1-30 is after #1 the brain has to control both sides of the body at the same time , punch left and kick right etc. I like these stories. Many years ago in Clarksville there was a guy in a wheel chair who was training with us he was a Para and was great fighter on the ground or from his chair KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

The brain can be termed as plastic and young people lay down tracks much easier than older folks that is why they have a more complete recovery post stroke or TBI. The cool thing about our 1-30 is after #1 the brain has to control both sides of the body at the same time , punch left and kick right etc. I like these stories. Many years ago in Clarksville there was a guy in a wheel chair who was training with us he was a Para and was great fighter on the ground or from his chair KC

Yeah. Looking at what basic SD can do for your body/mind, just on coordination alone, is astounding. Not to mention what the constant repitition and memory does for your mind. You rarely get into a position you've never been in before in some form or another, so you can figure out how to get back out of it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

What i am asking is there any other alternatives to learn martial arts rather than going to the only place available to you? The shaolin do here looked very sloppy, brown belts are very sloppy and wobbly, the older blackbelts seem to have better form, but the room is just way too small for it and i do not think the respect and discipline are practiced very well there. There was a Teenager swinging a sword around while little kids were walking behind him. Sloppy very sloppy. I know this doesnt reflect on the other schools, but this one just is not my cup of tea. Any training videos with step by step lessions or anything would help.

Thanks in advance,

Freebird

LOL......take a class, go through the skimpy workout before your white belt class, and see if you can throw one structured punch without collapsing. I'll give you money if you can.

My forms are at their absolute worst during a class session. The reason? They work you the **** out before you even get to your forms.

You want a forms demo, ask 'em at some other point. But then, don't ask the high-ranking student who practices once a week and has passed every belt test with a D average.....LOL......

[shadowlin]

Freebird, unfortunately martial arts history is dominated by names of people who happened to meet the right people and/or live in the right place. Having a certain teacher or learning a particular style at a particular time have been huge for the raising of prosperous schools, which of course is what generates strong students because the worse money is the lower the requirements.

PM me your location and I'll see if I can help you find a school, but no matter what, you've got to be close to a good teacher if you want the best education. Many people make huge moves or sacrifices for this. If you're serious, think about it.

I myself made my own career sacrifices just for Shaolin, and I encourage students to follow their hearts and dreams. If you know of a teacher in NYC or LA or Texas that impresses you, then go.

The bible says,



Matthew 6:25-34 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

25Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.


my point? they say when the student is ready the teacher will appear. Go where you can and if you can go, then do. No matter what, you will get what you need.

Buenos Suerte.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Freebird, unfortunately martial arts history is dominated by names of people who happened to meet the right people and/or live in the right place. Having a certain teacher or learning a particular style at a particular time have been huge for the raising of prosperous schools, which of course is what generates strong students because the worse money is the lower the requirements.

PM me your location and I'll see if I can help you find a school, but no matter what, you've got to be close to a good teacher if you want the best education. Many people make huge moves or sacrifices for this. If you're serious, think about it.

I myself made my own career sacrifices just for Shaolin, and I encourage students to follow their hearts and dreams. If you know of a teacher in NYC or LA or Texas that impresses you, then go.

The bible says,



my point? they say when the student is ready the teacher will appear. Go where you can and if you can go, then do. No matter what, you will get what you need.

Buenos Suerte.

*Hand grinding into forehead*

For, as Rabelais says:

"Heark, what our Privy sayes to the Skyters:

****tard
Squirtard
Crackard
Turdous
Thy bung
Hath flung
Some dung
On us:
Filthard
Cackard
Stinkard:
St. Antonie's fire seize on
thy toane,
If thy
Dirty
Dounby
Thou do not wipe ere
thou be gone.

Will you have any more of it? Yes, yes, (answered Grangousier.) Then said Gargantua,

In ****ing yesday I did know
The sesse I to my arse did owe:
The smell was such came from that slunk,
That I was with it all bestunk:
O had but then some brave Signor
Brought her to me I waited for,
In ****ing:
I would have cleft her watergap,
And joyn'd it close to my flipflap,
Whilest she had with her fingers guarded
My foule Nockandrow, all bemerded
In ****ing."

[BM2]

Thought that there might be someone who would be inspired in this article. You may have to scroll down to read it http://www.bjjcenter.com/multimedia/articles/article_detail.php?ArticleID=4

[Shaolin Wookie]

Thought that there might be someone who would be inspired in this article. You may have to scroll down to read it http://http://www.bjjcenter.com/multimedia/articles/article_detail.php?ArticleID=4

Two http://'s in your link. I'll type it in.

Edit: where?

[shadowlin]

*Hand grinding into forehead*

For, as Rabelais says:

"Heark, what our Privy sayes to the Skyters:

****tard
Squirtard
Crackard
Turdous
Thy bung
Hath flung
Some dung
On us:
Filthard
Cackard
Stinkard:
St. Antonie's fire seize on
thy toane,
If thy
Dirty
Dounby
Thou do not wipe ere
thou be gone.

Will you have any more of it? Yes, yes, (answered Grangousier.) Then said Gargantua,

In ****ing yesday I did know
The sesse I to my arse did owe:
The smell was such came from that slunk,
That I was with it all bestunk:
O had but then some brave Signor
Brought her to me I waited for,
In ****ing:
I would have cleft her watergap,
And joyn'd it close to my flipflap,
Whilest she had with her fingers guarded
My foule Nockandrow, all bemerded
In ****ing."

That was fairly unconstructive. It's funny when people read posts not addressing them and take them personal. I always found it strange, and always will. :rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

That was fairly unconstructive. It's funny when people read posts not addressing them and take them personal. I always found it strange, and always will. :rolleyes:

Are you sure that you are not a student, waiting for your teacher?

Behold, I have returned unto you, and you know me not.

And lo, you have read my post, and you comprehend it not.

And not for the post, not not of the understanding of it not.

[Judge Pen]

Are you sure that you are not a student, waiting for your teacher?

Behold, I have returned unto you, and you know me not.

And lo, you have read my post, and you comprehend it not.

And not for the post, not not of the understanding of it not.

Wookie, why the animosity toward shadowlin? So you don't like people quoting the Bible? Why make fun of it? It wasn't directed toward you. What does that add to this conversation? :confused:

[shen ku]

where did everyone go?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Wookie, why the animosity toward shadowlin? So you don't like people quoting the Bible? Why make fun of it? It wasn't directed toward you. What does that add to this conversation? :confused:

1) It was out of context.
2) It was rather lengthy.
3) I fight dogmatism. It's what I do.
4) It was directed at everyone and no one.
5) It adds an atheists perspective, just as it added a Christian perspective. It's not detracting anything either way. Quid pro quo. An exchange, a challenge, an equation of ideologies, etcertera.
6) What did quoting the bible add to this conversation about Martial Arts? What did my quotation from Rabelais on Pantagruelist fecal poesie add to the conversation? The answer...........nothing.
7) For all nonsense there is an equal and opposite nonsense.

[Judge Pen]

1) It was out of context.
2) It was rather lengthy.
3) I fight dogmatism. It's what I do.
4) It was directed at everyone and no one.
5) It adds an atheists perspective, just as it added a Christian perspective. It's not detracting anything either way. Quid pro quo. An exchange, a challenge, an equation of ideologies, etcertera.
6) What did quoting the bible add to this conversation about Martial Arts? What did my quotation from Rabelais on Pantagruelist fecal poesie add to the conversation? The answer...........nothing.
7) For all nonsense there is an equal and opposite nonsense.

I can certainly understand frustration for "in your face" christian dogma, but man (and I'm not saying shadowlin's post was wrong) Two wrongs don't make a right either.
1. It wasn't directed at you so out of context or not, you're butting in;
2. so was you assine rebuttal;
3. You should have that put on a t-shirt so people would take you more seriously. And a cape--capes are cool--I take everyone I meet seriously if they are wearing a cape;
4. What's that psuedo intellectual crap really mean?;
5. I'm all for a dialouge and seeing other perspectives, but your post was destracting in every way. There can be no quid pro quo without a meeting of the minds my friend.
7. It added nothing---bingo---if your points were meaningless (as you seem to acknowledge) then maybe you shouldn't take the time to type them.
8. Because one believes in God or quotes the bible for moral support or perspective does that make it nonsense? Not everyone who believes in God (any god but specifically the christian god) thinks that atheism is nonsense. They might not agree, but if they are really paying attention to what they say they believe, then they don't pass judgment on others and their beliefs (no matter how misguided they think their beliefs may be).

My point in all of this is not to be so presumptions that you think you should be the thought police to everyone who professes a belief in a higher power. Certainly not when it involved butting in on a conversation that had nothing to do with you. If you're really interested in "exchange, a challenge, an equation of ideologies, etcertera" then start a thread on that where it has context.

Sorry to rant, man. I just hate seeing conversations derailed by anothers grinding axe. Let's get back to the axe grinding of SD and its many issues.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I can certainly understand frustration for "in your face" christian dogma, but man (and I'm not saying shadowlin's post was wrong) Two wrongs don't make a right either.
1. It wasn't directed at you so out of context or not, you're butting in;
2. so was you assine rebuttal;
3. You should have that put on a t-shirt so people would take you more seriously. And a cape--capes are cool--I take everyone I meet seriously if they are wearing a cape;
4. What's that psuedo intellectual crap really mean?;
5. I'm all for a dialouge and seeing other perspectives, but your post was destracting in every way. There can be no quid pro quo without a meeting of the minds my friend.
7. It added nothing---bingo---if your points were meaningless (as you seem to acknowledge) then maybe you shouldn't take the time to type them.
8. Because one believes in God or quotes the bible for moral support or perspective does that make it nonsense? Not everyone who believes in God (any god but specifically the christian god) thinks that atheism is nonsense. They might not agree, but if they are really paying attention to what they say they believe, then they don't pass judgment on others and their beliefs (no matter how misguided they think their beliefs may be).

My point in all of this is not to be so presumptions that you think you should be the thought police to everyone who professes a belief in a higher power. Certainly not when it involved butting in on a conversation that had nothing to do with you. If you're really interested in "exchange, a challenge, an equation of ideologies, etcertera" then start a thread on that where it has context.

Sorry to rant, man. I just hate seeing conversations derailed by anothers grinding axe. Let's get back to the axe grinding of SD and its many issues.

Point taken.:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20080501TDY02307.htm

Lol...."Qin is believed to have been trained at the Songshan Temple in Henan Province, China, and to have succeeded the grand master there."

--Just how many Grandmasters of Shaolin can there be? LOL.......and, where have all the abbots gone? Why do even "legit" guys claim such and such generation Grand Master.......? Gene? Anyone? Not being snotty...just curious as to translation and such (like, is it customary for the Japanese to take Grand Master, or the Chinese, and why translate it like that in English?)

Anyways, has anyone ever heard of Sung Tao Chien, or someone with a name like that? I'm just curious, because in this old documentary "This is Kung Fu" they mention this Sung Tao Chien (I don't know the spelling..poss. Tao Qian?) was a Japanese guy who went to study at Shaolin and brought the martial art back to Japan to form an association that has wide membership of a million or so. Anyways, at this National Chinese wushu tournament in the 80's, these two Japanese Shaolin practitioners go up onto the floor and put on a sparring match (choreographed, but choreographed very well) that has body mechanics and postures much like Shaolin-Do. There's a definite divide between the wushu tournament (both contemporary and traditional) and the Japanese practitioners, but you see the same ideas in both (and not with a stretch of imagination).

They're not doing Shorin-Ryu, and I don't think the story they were talking about with Sung Tao Chien was in reference to the old story of Okinawan masters learning crane from the Chinese. Then again, the narrator is talking out of his ass most of the movie, so it's hard to judge his reliability. Still, when he drops a name, he's usually accurate.

Just curious.:)

Edit: Zong Daochen...I think that's how it's spelled.

http://www.kungfuhome.net/Htmls/Scenic/Scenic_177.shtml

Partway down the page: Japanese Shaolin Kung Fu Allies

Also:
http://tgsh169.blog.hexun.com/12199776_d.html

**Note**I'm not suggesting some kind of Shaolin-Do link, just that they looked alike, probably because of the heavy Japanese influence. The documentary (again, not reliable) mentioned an integration of judo and karate into the Shaolin material.

[Citong Shifu]

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20080501TDY02307.htm

Lol...."Qin is believed to have been trained at the Songshan Temple in Henan Province, China, and to have succeeded the grand master there."

--Just how many Grandmasters of Shaolin can there be? LOL.......and, where have all the abbots gone? Why do even "legit" guys claim such and such generation Grand Master.......? Gene? Anyone? Not being snotty...just curious as to translation and such (like, is it customary for the Japanese to take Grand Master, or the Chinese, and why translate it like that in English?)

Anyways, has anyone ever heard of Sung Tao Chien, or someone with a name like that? I'm just curious, because in this old documentary "This is Kung Fu" they mention this Sung Tao Chien (I don't know the spelling..poss. Tao Qian?) was a Japanese guy who went to study at Shaolin and brought the martial art back to Japan to form an association that has wide membership of a million or so. Anyways, at this National Chinese wushu tournament in the 80's, these two Japanese Shaolin practitioners go up onto the floor and put on a sparring match (choreographed, but choreographed very well) that has body mechanics and postures much like Shaolin-Do. There's a definite divide between the wushu tournament (both contemporary and traditional) and the Japanese practitioners, but you see the same ideas in both (and not with a stretch of imagination).

They're not doing Shorin-Ryu, and I don't think the story they were talking about with Sung Tao Chien was in reference to the old story of Okinawan masters learning crane from the Chinese. Then again, the narrator is talking out of his ass most of the movie, so it's hard to judge his reliability. Still, when he drops a name, he's usually accurate.

Just curious.:)

Edit: Zong Daochen...I think that's how it's spelled.

http://www.kungfuhome.net/Htmls/Scenic/Scenic_177.shtml

Partway down the page: Japanese Shaolin Kung Fu Allies

Also:
http://tgsh169.blog.hexun.com/12199776_d.html

**Note**I'm not suggesting some kind of Shaolin-Do link, just that they looked alike, probably because of the heavy Japanese influence. The documentary (again, not reliable) mentioned an integration of judo and karate into the Shaolin material.


From my understanding, The Fujien (fukien) Shaolin Temple masters modified their kungfu when teaching the Okinawan martial artist, so this would probably be true for the Japanese who trained Shaolin at the Temple... This is why the Okinawan & Japanese karate, who claim lineage with Shaolin Temple share similar body mechanics & technique uncommon to Shaolin kungfu or CMA. The point is this, Non-Chinese who traveled & trained at Shaolin Temple "DID NOT" learn "ALL" aspects of Shaolin kungfu, only modified versions of external/internal conditioning, forms/drills, etc... No, big suprise. However, I'm sure that someone, somewhere will disagree & the merry-go-round will continue to go round & round, lol...

Take care everyone.
CS

[Judge Pen]

From my understanding, The Fujien (fukien) Shaolin Temple masters modified their kungfu when teaching the Okinawan martial artist, so this would probably be true for the Japanese who trained Shaolin at the Temple... This is why the Okinawan & Japanese karate, who claim lineage with Shaolin Temple share similar body mechanics & technique uncommon to Shaolin kungfu or CMA. The point is this, Non-Chinese who traveled & trained at Shaolin Temple "DID NOT" learn "ALL" aspects of Shaolin kungfu, only modified versions of external/internal conditioning, forms/drills, etc... No, big suprise. However, I'm sure that someone, somewhere will disagree & the merry-go-round will continue to go round & round, lol...

Take care everyone.
CS

I'm not disagreeing, but I wonder how much of this is being taught differently or the techniques becoming something different altogether based upon cultural, conceptual and geographical factors? That is to say how much of the techniques evolved into something different because the people passing down the techniques put their own spin on it to the point that the fundmentals changed to a degree?

[Citong Shifu]

I'm not disagreeing, but I wonder how much of this is being taught differently or the techniques becoming something different altogether based upon cultural, conceptual and geographical factors? That is to say how much of the techniques evolved into something different because the people passing down the techniques put their own spin on it to the point that the fundmentals changed to a degree?

JP,

Yes, this happened as well. Of course, this was after the fact. Non-Chinese from other countries that were allowed to train at shaolin temple were treated and trained differently than the chinese practitioners.

I dont hold too much stock in the whole geographical factors analogy. I've heard the whole northern and southern explanation; northern has more of this and that because of its open grass lands, etc, and southern does this and that because of over crowding, had to train on boats, etc... I'm just making a long story short, lol...

Anyway, I believe that geographically, kungfu styles did adapt to their enviornment, but they also trained in multiple level technique/s... This one aspect "geopgraphical" didn't exclude full body and range training, but gave the respected styles their own characteristics....

Now, this is how the history and culture of CMA (generally speaking) that is passed down from my teacher to his students...

Overall, your absolutely correct in your post. Things were changed on both sides... It's all about how one understood what was being taught...

Take Care.
CS

[Judge Pen]

JP,

Yes, this happened as well. Of course, this was after the fact. Non-Chinese from other countries that were allowed to train at shaolin temple were treated and trained differently than the chinese practitioners.

I dont hold too much stock in the whole geographical factors analogy. I've heard the whole northern and southern explanation; northern has more of this and that because of its open grass lands, etc, and southern does this and that because of over crowding, had to train on boats, etc... I'm just making a long story short, lol...

Anyway, I believe that geographically, kungfu styles did adapt to their enviornment, but they also trained in multiple level technique/s... This one aspect "geopgraphical" didn't exclude full body and range training, but gave the respected styles their own characteristics....

Now, this is how the history and culture of CMA (generally speaking) that is passed down from my teacher to his students...

Overall, your absolutely correct in your post. Things were changed on both sides... It's all about how one understood what was being taught...

Take Care.
CS
I should have spoke more accurately. I was thinking more of geographic isolation (as opposed to geographic topography etc). Being isolated would limit one's opportunity to compare the material with the source (or other branches of the source) and allow more individual modification and interpretation to creep in and eventually become part of the material. Does that make sense?

[Citong Shifu]

I'm not disagreeing, but I wonder how much of this is being taught differently or the techniques becoming something different altogether based upon cultural, conceptual and geographical factors? That is to say how much of the techniques evolved into something different because the people passing down the techniques put their own spin on it to the point that the fundmentals changed to a degree?

JP, I forgot to add one important fact to this conversation. Some people were only trained in one maybe two aspects of CMA, thus leaving them incomplete in their studies. These people then move on to teach or create a new style which focuses on what they themselves were taught...

The CMA is very deep or comprehensive. There is never one way or one intent / focus.... CMA incorporates all aspect of the mind, body, and its range of motion/s. I feel this is the one thing that CMAist fail to understand, which explians the gaps or distortions within many of the teachings or styles.... As I've said, where does it start or begin? Some people were just taught one or a few training aspects or ways to train technique/s, so this is the direct affect of teachers teaching without complete understanding of this very in depth comprehensive art.

I'm not pointing fingers, this most likely started several hundred years ago, if not longer...


Take Care.

[Citong Shifu]

I should have spoke more accurately. I was thinking more of geographic isolation (as opposed to geographic topography etc). Being isolated would limit one's opportunity to compare the material with the source (or other branches of the source) and allow more individual modification and interpretation to creep in and eventually become part of the material. Does that make sense?

JP,
Absolutely, More than you know, lol.... This happens quite a bit.... The ever changing and evolving world...

CS

[lostdragon]

even if its not real, it sure has longevity! 607 pages... that's gotta be a record.:)

[Judge Pen]

even if its not real, it sure has longevity! 607 pages... that's gotta be a record.:)

We're resilient if nothing else!

[Citong Shifu]

even if its not real, it sure has longevity! 607 pages... that's gotta be a record.:)

The power of argument!

Real or not, There has been many conversations on this thread that prove and disprove the question at hand or validity of style/s. I think the best course of action would have been to ignore many of the threads and focus more on the facts that coould indeed be traced or verified through Sin The', his brother, their teacher/s, and there teacher's, teacher's... As well as, direct validity through the school affiliates in Indonesia.

Forgive me for saying so, but the SD style or art lost its validity throughout this super thread.... Why do I think this? Read the thread. If the information was discussed factually, this thread would have never reached 607 or even 50 at that matter... Please dont misunderstand, I'm not say I'm against SD or personally attacking the style, but there was just too much attention placed on proving validity and lineage which should have not been the case.... Furthermore, a style or art is not valid due to one's association with another teacher or organization, so these type of conversations are just distractions and should be discussed seperately....

I've enjoyed reading this thread and its replies. Both sides brought very good conversations to the table. However, SD should have ceased the rebuttle or debate after placing their information, lineage, and origins out on the table.... Casual conversation thereafter concerning this information should have been the focus....

Anyway, its all good.... Everyone's happy and those who aren't, oh well.... The fact is this, nothing is going to change either way. Things are what they are...

Take care everyone...

CS

[Judge Pen]

The power of argument!

Real or not, There has been many conversations on this thread that prove and disprove the question at hand or validity of style/s. I think the best course of action would have been to ignore many of the threads and focus more on the facts that coould indeed be traced or verified through Sin The', his brother, their teacher/s, and there teacher's, teacher's... As well as, direct validity through the school affiliates in Indonesia.

Forgive me for saying so, but the SD style or art lost its validity throughout this super thread.... Why do I think this? Read the thread. If the information was discussed factually, this thread would have never reached 607 or even 50 at that matter... Please dont misunderstand, I'm not say I'm against SD or personally attacking the style, but there was just too much attention placed on proving validity and lineage which should have not been the case.... Furthermore, a style or art is not valid due to one's association with another teacher or organization, so these type of conversations are just distractions and should be discussed seperately....

I've enjoyed reading this thread and its replies. Both sides brought very good conversations to the table. However, SD should have ceased the rebuttle or debate after placing their information, lineage, and origins out on the table.... Casual conversation thereafter concerning this information should have been the focus....

Anyway, its all good.... Everyone's happy and those who aren't, oh well.... The fact is this, nothing is going to change either way. Things are what they are...

Take care everyone...

CS

The point of this thread was never to prove or disprove the validity of SD. It was started by a troll (an alias from another forum member) to stir up crap and it morphed into something else. The majority of SD people don't really care about the discussions on this forum. This thread became the filter for 90% of discussions about SD. As you said, it really proved nothing and nothing is going to change either way.

Gene had merged several threads into this one so we wouldn't have 14 SD threads going at once. The fact that the thread contains smatterings of factual discussions and a whole heck of a lot of riff-raff shouldn't be seen to discredit SD. SD didn't start the thread and any participation of myself or members were for our own personal enjoyment and edification. It's nice to have a place to go and discuss whatever (much of it relevant but much of it isn't) but I don't see how the conglomerate composition of a super-thread cause a style to lose validity. If that were the case, then many threads that are started to discuss Praying mantis, CLF, Ng Family style, Wah Lum or whatever that get hijacked, de-railed or caught up in the petty personalities of some posters would serve to discredit the style itself. Frankly, internet forums aren't that important.

[sean_stonehart]

Frankly, internet forums aren't that important.

Some are... like this one. It gives me an outlet to take me away from the horrors of work.

[sanjuro_ronin]

FYI, less than 900 posts and this bad ass mofu reaches 10000 !!!

[MasterKiller]

Some are... like this one. It gives me an outlet to take me away from the horrors of work.

I would actually have to be a productive citizen making "the man" ever richer if it weren't for forums liek this.

[Judge Pen]

Internet forums are fun. I've learned a lot and met a lot of interesting people. But like they say, you can't believe everything you read on the internet. For every good and worthwhile person that posts there are 3 trolls.

[BM2]

I would actually have to be a productive citizen making "the man" ever richer if it weren't for forums liek this.

Whoa, MK finally made a typo:D

[MasterKiller]

I saw it, but in my MMA-is-the-quick-path-to-the-darkside mindset, I decided I'd rather be fast and sloppy.

[Citong Shifu]

The point of this thread was never to prove or disprove the validity of SD. It was started by a troll (an alias from another forum member) to stir up crap and it morphed into something else. The majority of SD people don't really care about the discussions on this forum. This thread became the filter for 90% of discussions about SD. As you said, it really proved nothing and nothing is going to change either way.

Gene had merged several threads into this one so we wouldn't have 14 SD threads going at once. The fact that the thread contains smatterings of factual discussions and a whole heck of a lot of riff-raff shouldn't be seen to discredit SD. SD didn't start the thread and any participation of myself or members were for our own personal enjoyment and edification. It's nice to have a place to go and discuss whatever (much of it relevant but much of it isn't) but I don't see how the conglomerate composition of a super-thread cause a style to lose validity. If that were the case, then many threads that are started to discuss Praying mantis, CLF, Ng Family style, Wah Lum or whatever that get hijacked, de-railed or caught up in the petty personalities of some posters would serve to discredit the style itself. Frankly, internet forums aren't that important.

I hear you JP.... My comments were made due to alot of the Q&A. It's not so much about the "super-thread", but more about others trying to convince the style and ST's legitimacy. For example; My style/school, we have had hundreds of people come and go over the last 20 plus years. Most quit due to it being too hard, to long to learn, just didn't like it, etc. Then we have the local school owners and their supporters. Now, out of all this time we have never been attacked like SD.... Of course, we get the occasional "wushu" label, lol, but that goes with the territory... Anyway, this is just my opinion. I didn't feel that this thread was productive for SD and ST... No school or teacher should have to try this hard to be accepted by the masses....

Hopefully this subject is done. You know, there's always that one person waiting for the right thing to be said or stated, then this thread will be off and running again, lol...

Short explanation; you guys should practice and support your art without this type of headache... I dont know, maybe I just dont care what people have to say about me, etc... I do know that I have plenty of time to practice and contribute to forums like this as a result of it...

One of these days I'm going to get down to good ole Kentucky and see what all the fuss is about, lol... I'm really interested in meeting with BQ and Bruce.. Who knows, maybe try a class or two, to see if you guys can make me puke, I believe someones offering a payday if they cant :D....

Anyway, you guys take care.
CS

[Citong Shifu]

I saw it, but in my MMA-is-the-quick-path-to-the-darkside mindset, I decided I'd rather be fast and sloppy.

Fast and sloppy works, sometimes..... I dont care how good I look, as long as, I "WIN" :D:D.

[Judge Pen]

I hear you JP.... My comments were made due to alot of the Q&A. It's not so much about the "super-thread", but more about others trying to convince the style and ST's legitimacy. For example; My style/school, we have had hundreds of people come and go over the last 20 plus years. Most quit due to it being too hard, to long to learn, just didn't like it, etc. Then we have the local school owners and their supporters. Now, out of all this time we have never been attacked like SD.... Of course, we get the occasional "wushu" label, lol, but that goes with the territory... Anyway, this is just my opinion. I didn't feel that this thread was productive for SD and ST... No school or teacher should have to try this hard to be accepted by the masses....

I agree. The thing is Sin The or his senior students aren't here "trying". Heck, I'm not even trying to gain acceptance for SD, but since it is so often attacked, at least I can offer my own limited perspectives and understandings.

Hopefully this subject is done. You know, there's always that one person waiting for the right thing to be said or stated, then this thread will be off and running again, lol...

You don't know how many times I've hoped the thread would just wither on the vine. It's now a merry-go-round of epic proportions. But you're right someone else will spout off and things will start right back over again. Heck, this thread was started under that very circumstance. Its not like this is the first SD thread out there....

Short explanation; you guys should practice and support your art without this type of headache... I don’t know, maybe I just don’t care what people have to say about me, etc... I do know that I have plenty of time to practice and contribute to forums like this as a result of it...

I know that there have been students leave because they frequent forums like this and don't want the headache. I have a different perspective--the headache motivates me to be better. If my style is attacked, and I'm going to post my perspectives on the attacks, then I need to be able to practice what I preach. I wish I had more liberty to travel and meet up with more people. Whenever I travel I make a post looking for people in that area to see if we can meet up and exchange ideas. I think there are several criticism that are valid, but all I can control is how I approach my training and these criticisms are certainly eye-opening and motivating.

One of these days I'm going to get down to good ole Kentucky and see what all the fuss is about, lol... I'm really interested in meeting with BQ and Bruce.. Who knows, maybe try a class or two, to see if you guys can make me puke, I believe someones offering a payday if they cant :D....

You should come to Knoxville too.

Anyway, you guys take care.
CS

My response is in bold above.

[Golden Tiger]

CS, if I may..... I don't think this thread was ever intended to prove or disprove the validity of GMST or SD. Some of those saw it as a chance to practice keyboard fu because the few SD students that were around here when the thread started were very passionate about their chosen art. People saw it as a good way to start a fuss. It happens on political forums all the time. Heck, I am even guilty of it. You get bored, read someones comments and start picking them apart. Helps pass the slow times at work.

As for us having to put up with the headache of the anti-SD pundits, it pretty much goes away when we log off this forum. I have been involved in SD for over 30 years and I can only think of 3 times when someone actually questioned the validity of SD in person. For some strange reason, people aren't as brave or confrontational when looking another in the eye. So this big debate only exists here. I considered myself a pretty good martial artist before I discovered this thread and anything I have read here hasn't changed that a bit.

I guess what I am getting at is that while this thread has grown beyond its bounds, I kind of enjoy it. I have met a lot of people on here, kept in touch with some former classmates and learn some things here and there. I for one, am glad it lives on.....and on...and on.......

[brucereiter]

For some strange reason, people aren't as brave or confrontational when looking another in the eye. So this big debate only exists here.

soooooo true.

[brucereiter]

One of these days I'm going to get down to good ole Kentucky and see what all the fuss is about, lol... I'm really interested in meeting with BQ and Bruce.. Who knows, maybe try a class or two, to see if you guys can make me puke, I believe someones offering a payday if they cant :D....

Anyway, you guys take care.
CS

i am actually in atlanta. please look me up if you are ever here.

[Baqualin]

One of these days I'm going to get down to good ole Kentucky and see what all the fuss is about, lol... I'm really interested in meeting with BQ and Bruce.. Who knows, maybe try a class or two, to see if you guys can make me puke, I believe someones offering a payday if they cant :D....

Anyway, you guys take care.
CS[/QUOTE]

Please do....I'm easy to find..... the internal classes won't make you puke...maybe float:D
BQ

[Baqualin]

i am actually in atlanta. please look me up if you are ever here.

Hey Bruce,
Haven't talked to you since you left the nest...hope all is well and still looking foward to meet up someday.
BQ

[Citong Shifu]

i am actually in atlanta. please look me up if you are ever here.

Hey guys,
I see what all of you are saying now... I guess with all the he said, she said, the thread kind of went south, etc....

[Citong Shifu]

One of these days I'm going to get down to good ole Kentucky and see what all the fuss is about, lol... I'm really interested in meeting with BQ and Bruce.. Who knows, maybe try a class or two, to see if you guys can make me puke, I believe someones offering a payday if they cant :D....

Anyway, you guys take care.
CS

Please do....I'm easy to find..... the internal classes won't make you puke...maybe float:D
BQ[/QUOTE]


LOL, haven't done that in awhile.... Last time I floated, I was 14 in the back seat of my 17 year old girlfriend's car......... Ooooops, a story for a diffrent time :D...

Take care.

[brucereiter]

Hey Bruce,
Haven't talked to you since you left the nest...hope all is well and still looking foward to meet up someday.
BQ

hi bagualin,

all is good. i really love the gao bagua i am learning. of coarse i still practice my favorite things i learned at the csc. i will put some clips up in a few months (i dont want to embarrass my new teacher yet with my newbieness in the system lol :-) )

i will talk to you soon ...

[Golden Tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgqd3hnQZh4&feature=related

Comments?

[brucereiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgqd3hnQZh4&feature=related

Comments?

banjobilly mislabeled the clip. what he meant to say is this form is the "original" form from jiang rong qiao.

[Judge Pen]

Nice hair and uniform. The movements were very precise.

[Shaolin Wookie]

BTW...this thread RULEZ! How else can I get all this cool info on the art?

LOL.....

Anyways, I was cruising Hiang The's site, and I was looking at the set lists set under the "Tai Peng" heading. Note the ones in bolded print:

TAI PENG (BIRD)

Tai Peng Sin Kune/ Big Bird Opens Its Wings
Tai Peng Fan Chè/ Big Bird Flips Its Wings
Tai Peng Chan Se/ Big Bird Spreads Its Wings
(Above 3 Kata Set)Tai Peng Chan Se
Tai Peng Chèin Wo/ Big Bird Builds Its Nest
Tai Peng Se Wo/ Big Bird Watches Its Nest
Tai Peng Pao Wo/ Big Bird Defends/Protects Its Nest
(Above 3 Kata Set)Tai Peng Pao Wo
Tai Peng Sao/ Yin Big Bird Sweeps the Clouds
Tai Peng Khe Yin/ Big Bird Cuts the Clouds
Tai Peng Wu Yin/ Big Bird Dances On the Clouds
Tai Peng Po Yin/ Big Bird Strikes Through the Clouds
Tai Peng Chuen Hè (Hur)/ Big Bird Aims/Stalks
Tai Peng Luo Tien/ Big Bird Desends/Drops From the Sky
Tai Peng Chua Chién/ Big Bird Claw
Tai Peng Kung/ Big Bird Attacks
Tai Peng Foo/ Big Bird Trap
Tai Peng Se/ Big Bird Vision
Tai Peng Ching/ Big Bird Spirit
Tai Peng Chien/ Big Bird Form

So, he lists our three brown belt birds as sets of the Tai Peng we get at blue belt. Also, he puts our crane forms under the Tai Peng heading (named slightly differently, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were the same). Not saying one is right, and one is wrong, just that perhaps our brown belt birds are Tai Peng? They are related somewhat in their opening/closing, rising/descending....but Tai Peng Sin Kune is rather different....the birds are very circular.

[cjurakpt]

"tai peng" is not bird or crane - it is a roc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_(mythology))

[Shaolin Wookie]

"tai peng" is not bird or crane - it is a roc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_(mythology))

I think they're analogues, but not the same thing entirely.

[Leto]

"In the northern darkness there is a fish and his name is K'un. The K'un is so huge I don't know how many thousand li he measures. He changes and becomes a bird whose name is P'eng. The back of the P'eng measures I don't know how many thousand li across and, when he rises up and flies off, his wings are like clouds all over the sky. When the sea begins to move, this bird sets off for the southern darkness, which is the Lake of Heaven. " - Chuang Tzu

If you keep reading the Central Shaolin page, they list the same bird and crane forms that are in SD, seperately from the Tai Peng system. I don't think they are the same thing, just named similarly. Actually, Chan Ie, that we have been told means "spreading wings", actually uses the character for feathers, not wings.

Also, according to the characters written by GM Sin for Tai Peng Sin Kune, they don't say "great bird opens wings" exactly. 太鵬伸拳
Actually the character for "kune" is quan (chien), fist. So I guess this one is using the cantonese pronounciation rather than the fukien and occasional mandarin that we see in all the other form names. The character for "sin" looks to be "shen" in mandarin, which is like "extend". So great bird extending fist? Maybe "opens wings" is what the extending character implies...but it is not the same characters that are used for Chan Ie (Yu)演鸽, which is spreading feathers, or white crane spreads wings in the five animal form, which is bai he chan chi(se) 白鹤演翅.

Of course, the scribbly hand written and photcopied characters that are handed down to use are hard to read a lot of the time. I may have some things wrong...but fourth character of tai peng sin kune 拳 definately looks like the same character at the end of lohan chien, it is easy to compare because they are right next to eachother on the document. It looks nothing like the character for wings 翅, which is found in the white crane forms.

Not that the names are super important. We can call them whatever we want, really (and we have been for several decades now).

[cjurakpt]

I think they're analogues, but not the same thing entirely.

they are "both" giant mythological birds, just from different cultures (that communicated regularly with each other throughout history via the Silk Road); the point is that a "peng" is definitely not a crane nor any other sort of actual bird;

[DPL]

I've seen the first three SD tai peng forms from long ago - they're definitely not the brown belt forms. If memory serves number three is a particularly nice-looking little form. They're all very short.

[shen ku]

i just want to ask something, we talk a lot about skills and so forth, but i would like to ask when was the last time YOU (anyone) had to defend themself and at what level of defense did you have to go???

[kwaichang]

Most on here talk a good game but do not use their skills for real KC

[Golden Tiger]

just want to ask something, we talk a lot about skills and so forth, but i would like to ask when was the last time YOU (anyone) had to defend themself and at what level of defense did you have to go???

About 30 years ago when I was in high school....and I went all out! baIIs to the wall.



Most on here talk a good game but do not use their skills for real

I have used my skills and training for the last 30 years......which is why I haven't had to defend myself since.

EDIT:

I take that back. I had a students return after a few years, been off to college, bounced at few bars, thought he was the shizzle. He asked for a private lesson after the regular class, mainly to see if the "Charles Atlas Book of Body Building" he got out of the back of a Archie comic had done him any good.

Anyway, we went at it a while, mostly light, then he tagged me. Hard! Really hard!! So then I did turn up the heat, beat on him a bit, ended up putting him in an arm bar and making him yell "Uncle" (I really did! Trying to make light of the fact that he hadn't eaten enough Wheaties that morning)

Long story short, he left and I haven't seen him since. He's probably out there, planning his next line of attack.

So to answer the question: About 16 years ago and I would think I was at a 6 on my super-duper skill level.

[Judge Pen]

i just want to ask something, we talk a lot about skills and so forth, but i would like to ask when was the last time YOU (anyone) had to defend themself and at what level of defense did you have to go???

College about 12 years ago. A drunk guy took a swing at me which deflected and locked his arm behind his back and held him down until campus police arrived and arressted him.

[BM2]

High School.
I didn't want to fight but it wasn't up to me. My older brother wrested for Trinity HS in Louisville and would wrestle with me and I had five brothers anyway and that is how we played.
I did a double leg to a fireman's carry to a slam. He didn't want to fight anymore. We were in the snow along side the road when I slammed him. Saw him a couple of years or so ago and he brought up laughing at himself wanting to fight me and getting slammed. Time does change things.
Oh, I still don't go looking for a fight. I may disagree with someone but I don't lose my cool wanting to fight.
Now I do think that some on here post as if they were still in High School with their chest out trying to prove whatever:confused: These internet challenges are so sophmoric. Gene may think he has a bunch of middle schoolers on here instead of adults.
I just don't get it .

[kwaichang]

Its quite simply EGO some on here are wrapped up in Lineage, who they know or who they trained . They seem to think if the know or trained a great fighter they are a great fighter. NOT. All are not interested in fighting though and are great Martial Artists. They just arent proven but then many dont care. KC

[humbleman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtwh3nQP5Uo:D

[humbleman]

linkee no workee vintage Hai Karate commercial:(

[Old Noob]

So I just now finished reading the entire thread. I know. I know. I have no life. I should be training. Work is feast or famine for me and I'm starving now. So, since I can't train at work (they might have me committed if I did), I'm left to read the annals of the "is SD for real" thread. Plus, I don't want to be the guy who asks a question only to be accused of being lazy because I didn't see the answer 347 pages ago. Then MK would say "STFU Noob" and my feelings would be hurt. Of course, now that I've said this MK will still say "STFU Noob" because he's the king of the one-liner. Funny how reading four years worth of discourse makes you feel like you know everyone a little.

Anywho, a while back Mas Judt was exploring a potentially revelatory theory on the Do then he got busy and couldn't go into it. Something about trying to nail jello to a tree. So obviously I have time for jello nailing. Mas, if you don't have time, pass the torch and we'll pick up the research. What do you say?:o

[BM2]

Shut up Noob. It was jelly.
No really, it was jello? Now it makes sense:o
At least you didn't read Willowsword and I can't recall his name thread. I read it all and didn't look at the end 'cause it would be like reading a book and then jumping to see how it ends. Well I'll save you a day out of your life by telling you that it doesn't tell you how it ends. I even sent a PM to Willow Sword and he didn't tell me. UGGHhhhh I felt like someone pulled the football away again just as I was about to kick it. Oh yeah, if this post doesn't make sense it was due to me being stuck in traffic and taking 3.25 hrs to get home tonight. I lost some brain cells from all of the exhaust.

[Judge Pen]

So I just now finished reading the entire thread. I know. I know. I have no life. I should be training. Work is feast or famine for me and I'm starving now. So, since I can't train at work (they might have me committed if I did), I'm left to read the annals of the "is SD for real" thread. Plus, I don't want to be the guy who asks a question only to be accused of being lazy because I didn't see the answer 347 pages ago. Then MK would say "STFU Noob" and my feelings would be hurt. Of course, now that I've said this MK will still say "STFU Noob" because he's the king of the one-liner. Funny how reading four years worth of discourse makes you feel like you know everyone a little.

Anywho, a while back Mas Judt was exploring a potentially revelatory theory on the Do then he got busy and couldn't go into it. Something about trying to nail jello to a tree. So obviously I have time for jello nailing. Mas, if you don't have time, pass the torch and we'll pick up the research. What do you say?:o

Congratulations on finishing the thread. I'd go back and have an IQ test just to make sure it didn't drop a notch or two in the process. :D

[cjurakpt]

So I just now finished reading the entire thread.
and so now feel free to go out and commit as many mortal sins as you like: an eternity in He1l will seem mild by comparison...

[Old Noob]

that I feel more capable of passing a "Is Shaolin Do for Real" cast of characters personality and history quiz than of passing a quiz on the facts concerning SD?:rolleyes:

[The Willow Sword]

Shaolin-do the Musical Post? Oh my those were good times:D.

I never did finish Part 2 to that Musical,lack of funding and interest. As you well know it takes a VERY long time to make a Musical or MOVIE or anything;):D:p

Peas,TWS:cool:

[SimonM]

I go away for nearly a year while I get married and move back to Canada and stuff and this thread is still on the first page of the Shaolin Kung Fu forum! Give it kudos for longevity.

[shen ku]

any SD guys going june 28th to EM Leonards , talk, I've been once and it was very interesting

[Shaolin Wookie]

What's it consist of?

[kwaichang]

I would like to go but not sure if I can swing it. KC:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

How many of you guys on here practice your iron bone training on a regular basis (every week)? Just curious. What effects have you noticed? And, I know you're not supposed to scar up your knuckles, but it happens every once and a while (I train on a large board, tied to a tree). How do you train, or how have you trained it, if you couldn't build one of those makiwara thingies?

Also, do any of you guys practice the mantis set "Penetrating hammer"? How do you play it? Man, that's a cool form.

[bodhi warrior]

What's the chinese name for this form? I don't think I've seen this. Is a seminar form?

[Shaolin Wookie]

What's the chinese name for this form? I don't think I've seen this. Is a seminar form?

Yeah, it's seminar. I think it's Seven Star Mantis, but I might be mistaken. As for the name....it's something like Tang Lang Chop Chuey Quan, or something along those lines. That's off the top of my head, so I don't know the proper pinyin, and I know Chuey is part of the Mad Drunk, but it's not the same chuey...LOL.....and I don't think it's Quan either at the end...I'll have to check my notes or something.

Anyways, the form will friggin kill your legs.

I've been training that beside the White Monkey STP and these 2 monkey forms I have.

Dude, that's like a heart attack in a can...LOL....

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's a lot like this one here. Not exactly, but I'd say 90% the same, only this guy looks a little reserved on the athletic side of it. But he only had a year's training, so he's not bad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHTRNGZJ1Zw

This young lady's form is more like ours in its format, as I didn't see any double snap kicks in the former form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2eT7NtkOsM

On the whole, ours is a bit more circular, and the capping strikes (fist/palm) have more of a downward hammerfist trajectory than what look like palm thrusts in these forms.

[bodhi warrior]

I break up my week by doing a a single animal on one day, and a different one the next. Example, everyday I warm up with short forms 1-30 twice, then say monday will do cranes and birds, tuesday tigers, wednesday mantis. these workouts will include bagwork, and kettlebell and bodyweight training in between each form. I also run 4 to 10 miles 3-4 times a week. At night I usually end with some taiji or bagua.
So Shaolin wookie, which monkey forms have you learned? I only know one the ground monkey sets.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It was the 2nd road ground monkey. Apparently GM Sin had many people complain that the first road was so much harder than the second, so he deciided to teach us the 2nd road first down in Atlanta 'cuz we're a bunch of wimps.:p Hopefully he'll come back and teach the others. The other was a small set called Stone Monkey's crafty hands that our school taught. It's a short/sweet set, lots of fun, plenty of monkey antics...LOL....right up my alley. The form basically rolls around and, like the ground monkey, is rooted in the crouching stance. But there's no prostrate stances in crafty hands. By SD standards, it's more in line with the length of the beginner sets.

BTW, your training regimen sounds great. I like to do the same thing: different animal and weapon per day, but I generally focus on a certain form or set of forms within an animal each week. I really try to accentuate the differences in each of the styles. Part of hte fun for me is in the playfulness of forms, and how this playfulness translates into specific fighting ideologies. Also, I make sure to run through my festival/seminar forms every day. IMO, they're the best we have in the system. Plus, it's mostly mantis, drunken, and monkey, and they're by far the most enjoyable/athletic. Leopard? Well, it's coming along. They're more intellectual, in my opinion. And those thousand pounds of kicks? Ugh....

We're learning Tang Lang Chien in a week or so, so I've been beefing up my mantis for a month now and neglecting some others. Plus, I've been really trying to keep quality in form with longer consecutive form counts. Meaning, I string them up back to back. I'm going on something like 3 years, and I'll be testing for first degree in September, and I really want to prove my worth and let all my hard work pay off. But I need to make sure I can get through fourteen forms without collapsing or gassing out halfway through....LOL.....that's the most important part to me.

[bodhi warrior]

I learned the 2nd grnd monkey also. It's a decent form. But I would like to learn the 1st one.
I also learned the 1st and 2nd golden leopard. I thought the forms were pretty basic in execution, but easily applied to sparring, except the overkill of combos.
I also crosstrained in jujitsu for alittle bit, it really opened up my mind on how to apply leverage when doing throws and how to counter takedowns. I don't do it any longer due to my new work schedule, but if you ever have a chance to try it for alittle while I would recommend it.
Wookie, look up chop choy on youtube and let me know if that is similar to what you were taught.

[shen ku]

I have both the ground monkeys and i love them. of course everyone that knows be found that easy to believe

[Shaolin Wookie]

I learned the 2nd grnd monkey also. It's a decent form. But I would like to learn the 1st one.

The only thing I don't like about the way we were taught the ground monkey form is that much of it is done from on the back, rather than leaning on a forearm. Honestly, when I practice I get up onto a forearm.

The last thing I want to do when fightinig a standing opponent from the ground is to lie with my back flat on the ground. You absord 100% of whatever hits you. There's no recoil or evasion. So, I always practice the form leaned on a bent elbow for some of the downed positions, especially when kicking in a side-thrust action. Granted, it's probably only two or three times in the form.....but I guess I do it a little off.:)

What do you think?

[shen ku]

well i think we all modify things to fit our personal style or sometimes personal fears of things that could happen. where did you learn the ground monkeys? i got them both in lexington

[bodhi warrior]

I can see what your meaning. You limit your mobility and impact absorbsion.
I think if you explore the forms deeply and try to use the moves in sparring, your method of doing certain things in the form will be different than someone elses, because we all see different possiblities. In chess everyone has the same pieces but every player has their method. And a select few step out of the box and take their game to the highest level.

[mkriii]

I also learned the 1st and 2nd golden leopard. I thought the forms were pretty basic in execution, but easily applied to sparring, except the overkill of combos.

Just curious, I was reading an article about leopard style in a mag last month. Is it true that there are very few people that know or practice leopard style because its a "dying" art? If you think about it there aren't many people you see that practice just leopard kung fu. In my training I learned one leopard form and that was for my 1st level brown sash. Thats the only leopard form I learned. Is their any web sites out their that anyone knows of that goes into detail about leopard style kung fu?