Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

Sin The' developed psychic powers and he knows who is calling before be picks up the phone...?


That's a new one on me.


Originally posted by MasterKiller

It's your organization. Maybe you can step up and stop the retard stories. All they do is fan the flames.


You're right, but extraodianary claims aren't exclusive to SD. Unfortunately, there's been so much conjecture for so long, I don't think these stories will ever fade.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
That's a new one on me. It's in his crap-fest book.

[Judge Pen]

Well I've heard of the 6th sense training (dark room, sand bags on rope etc.) but I hadn't read that book or heard that claim before. Did you buy the book MK?

[Golden Tiger]

Yeah, that does seem to be a problem. But I also think those stories are like any other. Each generation hears a slightly different version, embelishes the parts they forget and so forth and so on. Then you also have instructors that do the "my dad can beat your dad up" pimping in their classes to get the students fired up about what they are learning. Its not the best way but it happens.

Thing like that even happened to me. I was sparring with a class mate (huge mo fo) a long time ago, did some funky move, got lucky and he landed on his back flopping like a fish out of water. By the time I had heard what I "did" a week or two later, I had slaughtered the whole class. The great thing about it was that from then on, 80% of my matches were won before they started because of that rep.

So, I can't really blame any one for a little free advertisment.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
So, I can't really blame any one for a little free advertisment. Then you can't really blame us for thinking he's full of ****, either.

[David Jamieson]

6th sense ...hahahahaah.

sorry.

The purpose is not 6th sense in this type of training. It is the heightening of your other sense to a point where you are actually effectively using them.

awareness and complete being in the moment are often obscured as a 6th sense simply because the greater majority of us have the million noises in our heads all the time and multiple external distraction.

By shutting these down, we become hyper aware and our 5 actual senses become sharper.

example, a blind person hears better generally.

only one example, but you get the idea. If you lose your right arm, then your left arm will be better than either were before you lost the right arm.

anyway. I agree, no Martial art doesn't have it's share of bull cookies. Why should Sin Thé get pizzed on any more than anyone else that makes wild claims without proof? :p

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

The purpose is not 6th sense in this type of training. It is the heightening of your other sense to a point where you are actually effectively using them.

awareness and complete being in the moment are often obscured as a 6th sense simply because the greater majority of us have the million noises in our heads all the time and multiple external distraction.

By shutting these down, we become hyper aware and our 5 actual senses become sharper.

example, a blind person hears better generally.

only one example, but you get the idea. If you lose your right arm, then your left arm will be better than either were before you lost the right arm.


This is how I understood this training to work, and the name is a bit of a misnomer. Then again I've heard postures in our form translated to "duck flies out of heard" instead of flock, so much gets lost in the translation from time to time.

[BM2]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
This is how I understood this training to work, and the name is a bit of a misnomer. Then again I've heard postures in our form translated to "duck flies out of heard" instead of flock, so much gets lost in the translation from time to time.

You mean "out of herd" instead of heard? I thinking about wild geese.

Anyway, most know about Jack LaLane swiming with his hands and feet shackled, towing boats with several people in them while in the ocean bay. From what I recall, part of Master Sin's training for the snake style was that he learned to swim with his feet and hands tied. Somehow this has changed to his pecs. I thought that MK was making that up as another one of his snide remarks. Didn't know it was on somebody's webpage.

[Judge Pen]

Oops. Typo. :o Heard, herd, flock what's the difference?

[BM2]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Oops. Typo. :o Heard, herd, flock what's the difference?

Well given enough time it will be "Heard the duck"!

[BM2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Golden Tiger
[B]
By the time I had heard what I "did" a week or two later, I had slaughtered the whole class. QUOTE]

Uhh huh...Glad we cleared up the popcorn post ;) That no good MK. He is just another dirty Republican trickster!!! I bet he even voted for Ralph Nader for President!! Got his name of the ticket in OK, from what I herd,heard, you know what I mean.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by BM2
I thought that MK was making that up as another one of his snide remarks. Didn't know it was on somebody's webpage. I don't have to make this stuff up. You guys provide me with a plethora of material.

[David Jamieson]

MR Ducks
MR Knott
MR Sew
Cedar Wings?
Whale oil beef hooked!
MR Ducks!


(two newfs in a boat on a lake)

[MasterKiller]

Just keep your young daughters away from the Austin schools...

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35128

[lxtruong]

You sir, are full of hate.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
You sir, are full of hate. It's a Public Service Announcement. Don't shoot the messenger.

[lxtruong]

-edit-

Forget it. I'm not even going to address this.

[Golden Tiger]

Yeah, that was a little out of line there, even for you MK. Sure, you can throw a stab at SD by it but there is nothing funny nor should something like that be used even in jest.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Yeah, that was a little out of line there, even for you MK. Sure, you can throw a stab at SD by it but there is nothing funny nor should something like that be used even in jest. Who was joking? I have 2 daughters. If someone posted info like this about a place I was considering, I would appreciate it.

[Judge Pen]

Seriously, crap like that happens in all types of venues. It's sad whenever it occurs, but it would be wrong to imply that SD was part of the problem. It's sad that it happend, and sad that he met the minor in his school. People like that have serious issues and unfortunately, they are not always easy to spot.

[Brad]

It's a Public Service Announcement. Don't shoot the messenger.
Should've been in a seperate thread then.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Brad
Should've been in a seperate thread then. It is, smart guy. I posted the link to that thread.

[Brad]

Well, it certainly doesn't belong in this thread "smart guy", unless you're planning on making an arguement that Shaolin-Do as an organization somehow condones this. If you're trying to imply something about the organization as a whole(which is what it seems by adding it to the "is SD for real" thread) then at least have the guts to come out an say it.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Just keep your young daughters away from the Austin schools...

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35128

that's texas for ya ;) They seperate their men from their boys with a crowbar, so I hear.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
that's texas for ya ;) They seperate their men from their boys with a crowbar, so I hear.

Yep, thats Denver for ya....thinks child molesting is a joke.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Yep, thats Denver for ya....thinks child molesting is a joke.

Actually, I'm in Colorado Springs. But it's a general dislike for Texans here. It's not child molestation I make jokes about, it's texans.

[shen ku]

GT i train under master mike kemper i am sure that if you trained in lexington you should know him, he talks about all the same locations that you do.
the thing about loranz and that girl is just sad, i have meet him and it is true that you never know who would do that and what kind of person someone really is, but the facts of it is that he needs help! lots of Psych help, people who do this alot of the times look for places and jobs that will put them close to the target group, I do hope for him that this was just something that just worked around this way and not something that was planed and worked towards

I have a daughter and if it were mine i would besure he good help, HIGH SPEED LEAD THEREPY!!!! after alot of pain time to think about what he had done and what i had cut off

[shen ku]

i thought master sin swam with his hands and feet tied and crawled with his pecs (on dry land) and that master ie was the one who did the pole climing?? and the 6th sense thing i agree with JP as to how i was told it worked

[Jhapa]

Originally posted by shen ku
i thought master sin swam with his hands and feet tied and crawled with his pecs (on dry land)



that's what i was told. i take everything they tell me about gm sin with a grain of salt. i just take what i can and will leave the rest behind.

[David Jamieson]

like i said in the other thread, the guy was charged not convicted.

what is it with you hot heads anyway.

have you happened to see mystic river yet?

get it into ya and get some perspective.

Having said that:

If he is guilty as charged as found by due process then he has abused a position of trust.

Also, it is indicative of a problem in the screening process within the organization he works in.

if the charges are trumped up, then he is getting screwed over big time by a churlish brat.

still wanna put lead in him?

You murcans freak me out with your knee jerk reactions to things in your society that are taboo.

You'll watch slaughter and gore on tv all day and let your kids watch it too but god forbid they should see people making love.

that's ****ed up right there on an ethical and moral level.

[shen ku]

kung lek, sorry i did not mean to shot him i was talking about if i was to KNOW FOR SURE that someone had done what he is accused of to my daughter!!

and i do agree with you on the vilence on tv and in movies , I would much rather have them show a MATURE man and women in a loving and health relationship showing their love for each other,

but on no!! we could never have that on tv someone could be offended!! why who would ever want to teach the children of this country that a man and a women could have a mutual, safe, loving, and health relationship. why that just might not be any good, cause someone my look at their life and realize that they could be in an non-mutual,unsafe, non-loving and unhealth relationship and god forbid we make someone feel bad about their dum###a$$ choices that they have made in life,
OH sorry i could have offended someone out there who could be and abusive , controlling, antisocial, a$$hole

sorry i guess between having a child and the things i have seen in my work i have strong feelings about that ....been around to many nuts, crazys, and druggies

[David Jamieson]

I don't have a problem with people being protective of their children, or children in general.

It is the sad truth though that violence begets violence.

You cannot get back anything the way it was by commiting a violent or even criminal act yourself.

It is only revenge.

And according to the moral tenets in our Judeao-Christian society, revenge ain't ours.

People who get offended at love are only filled with hate. It is their voice that should be tempered. And we should also try to understand their hate so that we as a society may in some way fix that problem

They say equality for all under the law, but it ain't true when the mob rules any more than it's true when the commitee rules.

[BM2]

:( :( :(

[shen ku]

kung lek? if i attack you with intend to do you bodiely harm will you not match my attack with intend to not allow the harm, even if that my cause me harm?

and in an attack of a sexual nature the harm goes much deeper than just the body ( i know people that have gone through this )
we are not perfect we all are only( most of us anyway) trying to follow peacfull paths, i have walked away from many things that could have gotten ungly quick, have had to control everything from gown men 3x my size to children less than half my size who were totally out of control. i have left some of these events in near tears for the person i had to handle.
I will say that some of these men , women , and children were victoms of such acks (sexual ) of sickness and they will suffer to the end of their days with what it has left them with.

[shen ku]

JP i know some school teach alittle defferent material requirment at each black belt rank, what were you tought for 1st to 2nd black ? myself it was tai chi 64, classical pakua, 4 black tigers, and 4 spear forms

[David Jamieson]

kung lek? if i attack you with intend to do you bodiely harm will you not match my attack with intend to not allow the harm, even if that my cause me harm?

I don't think I inferred that.

But, on a sunny day:

If I was attacked for no reason whatsoever, I would assume mental imbalance on the part of my attacker. I cannot presume to know the outcome of the event, but I would protect myself to the best of my ability while at the same time being mindful of not overkilling. If you were greater than I in skill and strength, then that would determine something of the outcome, if we were equals, that would determine something also, if you were weaker then I would do my best to restrain and contain you without bringing harm to you to the best of my abilities.

Rage, anger and hate only impede ones abilty to make a situation right and often only make the situation worse and spiral downward to the negative effect of all involved.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shen ku
JP i know some school teach alittle defferent material requirment at each black belt rank, what were you tought for 1st to 2nd black ? myself it was tai chi 64, classical pakua, 4 black tigers, and 4 spear forms

That's the same for me. I think some schools have Tang Lang Chien as a requirement as well. I don't know if that's in addition to the other ten or if they susbstitute a form.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by pedro_sanchez
hello all. I am currently a moderator at another martial arts website. I greet you all respectfully. Just a brief background on my martial arts. I trained in boxing for quite a number of years, and I am currently a student of Shaolin 5 animals, Jeet Kune Do and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu.

On the other website, we have had more than a couple of run-ins with the Shaolin-do goof troop. They have been nothing more than trolls who contributed nothing to our website. They claim, until they are blue in the face that they are Shaolin. Even thought they wear Japanese Uniforms, use the belt ranking system and use Japanese terms for thier techniques. Through some great research from one of our other moderators, we have managed to find a website with some video clips of Shaolin-do training. The videos were all sped up to make it look like they had superhuman speed. A pretty lame attempt at that. They would even speed up a very badly coreographed "sparring" session. The members of Shaolin-do were so disrespectful and so not like a student of Shaolin. They call themselves senior students but act more like pre school children. The resorted to poking fun at another moderator whose 1st language wasn't english. The made fun of his grammar and spelling. When in fact there was nothing wrong with his grammar. The Shaolin-do students were just being petty.

My wish is not to start a new stay on this forum on a negative note, but I have had more than a few run-ins with these clowns. When I saw a thread about them here, I was surprised.

Bull crap! Your so called moderator was horrible. He started posting profanities and I asked him if he kissed his mother with that mouth and he banned me because "I talk bad about his mamma" I tried to explain what that saying meant and went round and round. It was the funniest thing I had read in a long time. I would ask you to post the link to the thread but the threads were deleted to cover the tracks of your shoddy moderator. Heck, even MK was present in this thread and he agreed with me.

Nothing wrong with his grammar? Ok .. that’s a good one. The boy was moderating a forum in English and didn’t understand some basics concepts of our language. He threw insults around all over the place and when questioned he went off banning people.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by themeecer
MK was present in this thread and he agreed with me. meecer is correct. I quit going there because of that.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by BM2
Have to say I admire the way you haven't let mk get too much under your skin. themeecer would be proud
:p

Hmmm ... not sure how to take this. hehe

Hey ... someone PM me on the tai chi 37/64 numbering. I was reviewing my notes and comparing it to ones from a manual put out by the Soards and I can't reconcile some of the moves to the names.

[sean_stonehart]

Just buy a copy of Cheng Man Ching's "13 Treatises on Tai Chi"... it's got the form in the back of the book... posture by posture... but it doesn't show you how to link the motions...

[cerebus]

How is it that a martial art which claims to have come directly from the Fukien Shaolin Temple teaches a form which was created by Cheng Man Ching in Taiwan not so many years ago? Does Sin The claim to have studied with master Cheng or one of his students? Or did he learn the form from one of Cheng's books?

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
For example, I have a tiny hole in my diagphragm,
Question is .. did you poke the hole in it on purpose? Just so you can get the poor fool who impregnates you to marry you?:D

[shen ku]

JP master grooms had that at his school ( from his mouth to my ears ) when i spoke with him on the trip back from china

in the new dvds that are out master sin states that the (as we call it anyway) tai chi 24 was created as others on here have said , never really said when he got it

hello themeecer havn't seen you in a while every thing going good i hope

[themeecer]

shen ku, it is going awesome! Life couldn't be better. Thanks for asking. How about you?

[cerebus]

Hmmmm. Did I ask an embarassing question for you SD guys, or do you just not have any idea of the answer?

[shen ku]

i am good how is master green

[BM2]

Well it's obvious that it didn't come from temple isn't cerebus ;)

[cerebus]

Yes, that much is obvious. Which is why I'm asking for the less obvious answer of where DID he learn it from? I know who MY instructors learned it from, and who THEIR instructor learned it from (our school teaches Northern Shaolin, Hsing-I, Tai Chi & Bagua). Who did Sin learn it from?

[Fred Sanford]

Hmmmm. Did I ask an embarassing question for you SD guys, or do you just not have any idea of the answer?

I would guess both. Unless, of course maybe Sin The taught that form to Cheng Man Ching. Anything is possible right?

[Judge Pen]

I think we are talking about two different tai chi forms. I have no idea where either was taught, but I know that Sin the was teaching 64 (or 37 or whatever) llong before he taugth 24. No one is claiming that he taugth it to CMC.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by shen ku
i am good how is master green

He is doing fantastic. I was just at his cabin the other day.

[cerebus]

Well the Tai Chi 24 form is the modern Wushu short-form based on Yang style which was created by a Wushu committee in the....50s, I think. The 64/ 37 form (37 postures, several of them repeated, for a total of 64) was created by Cheng Man Ching in Taiwan (don't recall the specific date).

I'm just wondering how they got into the SD curriculum. They've been available through books for decades. I suspect that's where Sin learned them.

[Ground Dragon]

Go away for a while, come back and there's another huge SD thread. Some things never change :)

[themeecer]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart
Just buy a copy of Cheng Man Ching's "13 Treatises on Tai Chi"... it's got the form in the back of the book... posture by posture... but it doesn't show you how to link the motions...
That's fine ... I can link the postures .. I can show you if you need to know.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by themeecer
That's fine ... I can link the postures .. I can show you if you need to know.

Thanks but that's ok.

When I play Taiji, I'm working on the Yang 108.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by cerebus
Well the Tai Chi 24 form is the modern Wushu short-form based on Yang style which was created by a Wushu committee in the....50s, I think. The 64/ 37 form (37 postures, several of them repeated, for a total of 64) was created by Cheng Man Ching in Taiwan (don't recall the specific date).

I'm just wondering how they got into the SD curriculum. They've been available through books for decades. I suspect that's where Sin learned them.

" the famous Yang Cheng-Fu (1883-1936) who is also known as Yang Chao-Chin. The
Yang style really gained widespread popularity because of the teaching of
Yang Cheng-Fu, the family members teaching in southern China, Hong Kong and
Taiwan, and the many fine students of Yang Cheng-Fu."

"Cheng Man-ch'ing Chronology -1938 Created the 37 Posture Short Form while in Hunan

So it looks like Yang style was being taught throughout southern China early on. It is even concievable that one of Master Sin's teachers or collegues picked it up during that time and didn't have to wait till it came out in "paperback".

Also just watched a chip of CMC's short form and while most of the moves are close, there are a lot of differences.

PS. Just announced that we will be getting "Hsing I Pang Loong Chen"
Entwine the Dragon 2-edge sword. Yeahhhh!!!!!!!!!

[lxtruong]

Is that the March seminar material? Or some special 5th degree thing that us peons can't hope to attain.

[Golden Tiger]

March Seminar material.....

[lxtruong]

huzzah!

[themeecer]

PS. Just announced that we will be getting "Hsing I Pang Loong Chen"
Entwine the Dragon 2-edge sword. Yeahhhh!!!!!!!!! [/B]

Holy freakin crap!! That form just sounds sexy. I absolutely love double edge sword forms. GT, you'll have to come say hi to me if you are there.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by themeecer
Holy freakin crap!! That form just sounds sexy. I absolutely love double edge sword forms. GT, you'll have to come say hi to me if you are there.

I have said hi to you at the last few seminars.........:D

[themeecer]

Doggone it. This secrecy is killing me. Next time say hi .. then say it is me .... GT.

[Judge Pen]

I've got GT narrowed down to a couple of Masters. . . . but I'm still not sure. :D

[Golden Tiger]

Just another face in the crowd....

[Judge Pen]

Anonymity is nice sometimes. . . .

[lxtruong]

Man, now I'm going to have to drive my sorry ass down all the way to Lexington again. That's a long drive.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by lxtruong
Man, now I'm going to have to drive my sorry ass down all the way to Lexington again. That's a long drive.

It may be closer to drive to Tennessee. ;) You'd have a place to stay if you needed it.

[wdl]

Yeah come see us Long.

How's it going? Haven't gotten to say hi since I was in Austin.

-Will

[lxtruong]

Haha. Well, we'll see. The drive is long either way.

I'm wigging out, my test is in a couple of weeks and I'm not ready. I'm seriously considering putting it off for a couple of months. The only problem is I don't know if putting it off for a couple of months will fix the problem.

[Judge Pen]

PM sent, Long.

[Ground Dragon]

That form does sound pretty cool, I think my favorite form was pang lung pang, dragon ensnares the staff. And I love the straight sword.


Originally posted by themeecer
Holy freakin crap!! That form just sounds sexy. I absolutely love double edge sword forms. GT, you'll have to come say hi to me if you are there.

[Judge Pen]

Your favorite form's coming up for me GD. It's good to see you back and posting, btw.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Man, they're coming out of the woodwork around here. Maybe you should ask Gene for your own forum. 28 pages is a long read. :D

[Judge Pen]

Maybe we'll just come over and all post on the Nothern Manits forum instead. :D

[shen ku]

JP do you know of any shao-lin do school in nashville

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shen ku
JP do you know of any shao-lin do school in nashville

Yeah, there's a small school there. Ernest McClain is the teacher and a 2nd degree I believe. He's a good guy and quick as a cat.

[norther practitioner]

quick as a cat you say...

[BM2]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
I have said hi to you at the last few seminars.........:D

I'm sooo glad we cleared up that hot buttered popcorn thingy!!! Hey, you probably already forgot and don't know what I am talking about ;)

[Shaolinlueb]

the real question is, is judgepen for real?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by BM2
I'm sooo glad we cleared up that hot buttered popcorn thingy!!! Hey, you probably already forgot and don't know what I am talking about ;) Hey, at least he's weening off the Viagra. Give the old guy a break.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Yeah, there's a small school there. Ernest McClain is the teacher and a 2nd degree I believe. He's a good guy and quick as a cat. What's it take, like 4-5 years to get 2nd Black?

Who is ready to run a school after 4 years?

Seems pretty common in SD. The guy in Lubbock is what, a first degree black? What's that, 3 years of training?

[Radhnoti]

I know guys who weren't interested in testing for additional belts after 1st black who have 20+ years in...

My teacher didn't think he'd ever teach (which becomes somewhat political) and had a teacher who didn't care if he ever tested for another belt. He had around 10 years in as a (practicing and active) first black, but he had all the material necessary for 3rd worked up for a long time.

But, yeah, someone could advance really quickly and still end up teaching if one of the Master-types (usually GM Sin, I believe) think they're ready.

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
What's it take, like 4-5 years to get 2nd Black?

Who is ready to run a school after 4 years?

Seems pretty common in SD. The guy in Lubbock is what, a first degree black? What's that, 3 years of training?

How much skill does it really take to teach rank beginners?

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by lxtruong
How much skill does it really take to teach rank beginners?


Well not much if you're not interested in teaching or don't care about the student... not much at all. Take a gander at any McDojo & you can see that... $$$$$$ is the rule of thumb.

If however you're interested in turning good well rounded students, it takes skill.

Any monkey can learn, but not any monkey can teach...

[MasterKiller]

word.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
What's it take, like 4-5 years to get 2nd Black?

Who is ready to run a school after 4 years?

Seems pretty common in SD. The guy in Lubbock is what, a first degree black? What's that, 3 years of training?

I don't know how long he's been training, but it takes at least 5 years to get 2nd under the Tennessee schools. I'm pretty sure he's been training longer than that.

I've been doing it for 15 and I don't want to teach.

And SL I'm not real; I'm a figment of your imagination.

[lxtruong]

Sure it takes skill, but skill isn't measured in years. Experience is constantly being gained and even as your students evolve, you evolve as well.

Consider for instance, for the first couple of months, most of what the average student learns are the basics. A skilled martial artist with only a couple of years can teach that. After that, it's not like you haven't gone through what your students have gone through, no?

I would definately say that teaching in some form or another is essential to growth as a martial artist.

[MasterKiller]

With 4 or 5 years of training or less, you are probably barely qualified to assist your instructor, let alone run a school on your own.

Would you want someone with 5 years of training as your head instructor? Me neither.

[lxtruong]

If you were a freshman in college, would you demand that you have a college professor tutoring you in algebra or would a college freshman be enough?

Why does it matter how many years the head instructor have? As long as he knows a lot more than me, isn't that enough? It would be one thing certainly if he didnt 'have more knowledge than me, but consider that this is your first day of martial arts instruction. I would maintain that someone with 4 years can teach you just as much as someone with 8 or 20.

[Judge Pen]

Nope, honestly I wouldn't want them to be my head instructor, either, but I'm sure there could be exceptions. Someone with other training prior to joining a system (I'm not just talking about SD here). Maybe they're prodigies. Maybe other factors outweigh a lack of experience.

But generally, no I would look for the most experienced instructor as possible.

[themeecer]

I agree that 1st and 2nd degree black belts should not be teaching. In our system you are not even viewed as a student until you hit first black. However like stated above, some people could care less about testing and even though they are a first degree they may have 15+ years experience. I was a first for about 8 years and a second for about 9 years. I guess I like the decade a rank advancement program. I have seen instances where this is not the case, where a practioner of 5 years is running his own school. I disagree with this 100%.

edit: I am only speaking of head instructors. I allow first degree black belts to teach the lower belts during class, all the time. Difference is, I personally come by and check their material and make any adjustments needed.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
If you were a freshman in college, would you demand that you have a college professor tutoring you in algebra or would a college freshman be enough? Tutor = Assistant Instructor. Teach the class = head instructor. There is a difference, IMO.


It would be one thing certainly if he didnt 'have more knowledge than me, but consider that this is your first day of martial arts instruction. Not everyone who walks into a CMA school is a n00b. What happens when you get a new student with 5 years in another style who just moved to town?


I would maintain that someone with 4 years can teach you just as much as someone with 8 or 20. If you wanted to be a very good astronomer, would you want to study math under someone with a B.S. or a Ph.D? I think I'd seek out the Ph.D. If I cared about being good, that is...

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Tutor = Assistant Instructor. Teach the class = head instructor. There is a difference, IMO.

Not everyone who walks into a CMA school is a n00b. What happens when you get a new student with 5 years in another style who just moved to town?

If you wanted to be a very good astronomer, would you want to study math under someone with a B.S. or a Ph.D? I think I'd seek out the Ph.D. If I cared about being good, that is...

Ah, but if you wanted to be a very good astronomer, and you were only a HS student, would you reject learning from someone because they JUST had a BS?

Of course, if someone walks into the school with 10 years of experience, there is probably not all that much that the head instructor with only 5 years experience can teach them. They should go elsewhere. Does this mean that the instructor there has no business teaching though?

I maintain that only the delta-skill matters. The instructor with 4 years experience is an appropiate instructor for some students, not all.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
And SL I'm not real; I'm a figment of your imagination.

thank god. i got scared there for a minute ;)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
I maintain that only the delta-skill matters. The instructor with 4 years experience is an appropiate instructor for some students, not all. I agree. He's the approproiate teacher for students not interested in being very good.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

Not everyone who walks into a CMA school is a n00b. What happens when you get a new student with 5 years in another style who just moved to town?


They would either leave or beat the crap out of the instructor and take over teaching.

I think Meece makes an excellent point. Just because someone can attain a rank in a certain minimum time doesn't mean they have. A first degree with 10 years of experience is probably more qualified to teach then a 2nd degree with 5 years total. Not necessarily true, but I'd go for experience over material, all other things equal.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by lxtruong
I would maintain that someone with 4 years can teach you just as much as someone with 8 or 20.


You mean i have been doing this crap all this time for nothing?

Actually, I would have to disagree with you on this one lxt. Old people made it that long for a reason....wisdom and experience that only time can provide.

[shen ku]

JP, do you know how to get in touch with the nashville school? i have a student that has been out and then moved for school and is wanting to start again?
On the idea of what rank or how long you have been training in order to teach, i had been training for 7 years when i started, i had been a 1st black for 3 years. i learned things from teaching that i would have never learned simply by praticing, teaching helped me as much ( maybe more ) than it did those i was working with. I do not feel anyone person can say when someone should start or what is a flat out standard for this.
I can say
1 i learned alot!!!! from teaching. you may have found all the answers to your ??? but now someone elsa is asking you theirs and you must dig deep and study hard
2 i have no dought that i am a better teacher today than i was then and that is because i have been doing it, experience? the thing is what are you experienced at practicing or teaching?
3 even now when i feel that i am a more skilled teacher, i have old students come up to me and thank me for what i showed them in 1993 ( thats when i started teaching ) BUT I DO WONDER sometimes am i as fired up as i was then, do my students see how much i enjoy what i do, are they able to feed off it ,
Some people will never teach and for them i am sad,

"Everyone we meet will be superior to us in some way, whether it be in wisdom, wealth, or strength" old chinese proverb

" if you wish to truely learn, take a student "

" to be a master be a survent , to be survent be a master "

and if we all waited untill we were truely ready, no one would ever start

[Vash]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
A first degree with 10 years of experience is probably more qualified to teach then a 2nd degree with 5 years total. Not necessarily true, but I'd go for experience over material, all other things equal.

Ahhh! The logic!! It burns like hygiene!!!

[Judge Pen]

SK,

You are right, you do learn more teaching then anything. I've taught as an assistant for years, but I take that responsability very seriously. Why take from me when you can learn from my teacher who is much better than me?

And there are other factors besides experience: enthusiam, communication skills, physical ability, organizational skills, opportunity, resources, etc, etc., but if all those things were the same or similar, I'd take the more experienced teacher over the less.

I'll see if I can get some information to you regarding the Nashville school. I don't think it's listed on the SDA site anymore.

[Brad]

Just thought I'd go back to the college analogy for a second, and say why I don't like it and don't think it's valid when it comes to martial arts.

First of all, to get a "4 year degree" still usually takes more than 4 years. Just because we don't count highschool(or even middle school) when saying "4 year degree", you're still learning skills often directly related to what you end up studying in college. And that means you're going to school pretty much full time. Martial arts often has a mental/acedemic aspect, but it's also a physical dicipline first. How many athletes only play their sport for 4 years of their life, and then suddenly get a head coaching job?

[shen ku]

brad, if you look around you can also find coaches , head and assistants , that have really never played much of their sport at all

[Brad]

Like who(that's been successful?)? The only one I can think of is Wu Bin (the old Beijing wushu team head coach) but he still called in VERY experienced masters to do the actual teaching.

[Judge Pen]

I don't think Joe Gibbs played football, at any advanced level, prior to winning three superbowls as a coach. I could be wrong.

[MasterKiller]

Professional sports coaches are almost always college players that couldn't play professionally. They get an entry level coaching job working for peanuts and work their way up over many, many years. They basically learn how to coach on the job, UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF MORE EXPERIENCED COACHES. They aren't running their own programs and learning as they go.

That's why you see "lineages" of head coaches. At one time, every head coach in the NFL had been an assistant under Tom Landry. In the 80s and early 90s, almost all the head coaches had been assistants at SF. Up until a couple of years ago, about 1/2 off all the head coaches were at some time assistants under Jimmy Johnson.

And I can guarantee you none of them had 5 years or less of training to do their jobs.

For example:

Bill Cowher began his NFL career as a free-agent linebacker with the Philadelphia Eagles in 1979, and then signed with the Cleveland Browns the following year. Cowher played three seasons (1980-82) in Cleveland before being traded back to the Eagles, where he played two more years (1983-84). Cowher began his coaching career in 1985 at age 28 under Marty Schottenheimer with the Browns. He was the Browns’ special teams coach in 1985-86 and secondary coach in 1987-88 before following Schottenheimer to the Kansas City Chiefs in 1989 as defensive coordinator. He became head coach of the Steelers in 1992.

That's 17 years of playing/training (including college) before he became a head coach.

Belichick was a center/tight end at Wesleyan 1971-74. He launched his career in 1975 as a special assistant with the Baltimore Colts, then became an assistant special teams coach with Detroit (1976-77) and Denver (1978). In 1979, he joined the New York Giants as the special teams coach, and by 1981 he was also working with the linebackers. In 1985, he was named defensive coordinator and contributed to the Giants winning Super Bowl titles in 1986 and again in 1990. Following Super Bowl XXV, Belichick was named head coach of the Cleveland Browns in 1991, becoming the youngest head coach in the NFL at age 37.

That's 20 years of playing/coaching experience before getting a head coaching job...

Sure, some guys get there in less time. But they usually don't stick around very long...

[Judge Pen]

I don't think someone with just 3 to 5 years years of MA experience should be the head instructor of a school unless they are simply a prodigy of some sort. I think at least 10 to 15 total experience with at least 3 to 5 years teaching as an assistant would be required before you could consider yourself competent to teach as the head honcho of your kwoon.

With coaches, they are assistants for years first. Most have played the sport at some advanced level, but there are some who didn't. But they were taught how to coach under someone more experienced than them, so it's ok. The greatest fighters don't necessarily make the greatest teachers.

[Wharg0ul]

Kinda silly for a student scoping out schools to sign up under someone who's been training for less than 10 years. But of course you have kids and what-not who don't bother researching their school.

My instructer is a couple years older than me (34, to be exact), and has been training since he was a young child, with only the last 9 years being SD before he was offered the head instructor job here in the springs, simply because no one else was qualified. He didn't want it, but realised that there was no one else to do it.

Personally, I'm glad he chose to, mainly because he's a good instructor, and a helluva guy. Of course, it's also nice that he has so many years of training in other systems, plus a short stint of tourney fighting.

But how could 1st / 2nd blacks get away with even claiming to be "head instructor".....wouldn't they get laughed at a bit too often?

(wanders back to his flu-ridden misery)

[shen ku]

you know i think alot of people forget that in alot of areas of this country a 1st or 2nd is much more than most have and alot of people appriciate the chance to learn period.

oh but i was reading about a school just to day ( buisness side of the martial arts ) they had a program where if some on wanted to be a martial arts instructor.....with having never had any training.....doing for a buisness..... they could take you from beginner to black belt instructor and in offer buisness training on how to run a profitable school ... long trem .... in just 1 year yes just 12 months???????

[cho]

This isn't a Shaolin-do topic! No one is calling each other names or questioning each other's lineage!:mad: :mad:

okay, I got one for y'all: If that hairy guy was such a bad ass, how come there are no other legends of him? If he mastered a lot of styles, he'd have a lot of teachers. And wouldn't those teachers also have other students? And wouldn't those other students wonder "how did that hairy mother$%^&* master our school so fast" ? Even if he only mastered one style and repeatedly kicked ass, he'd be more legendary than Wong Fei Hung or Fong Sai Yuk, just by being hairy. Like another guy who supposedly had white eyebrows.

and I'm gonna the throw in the required YOU'RE ALL FRAUDS!! :p :p :p :p

carry on

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by cho
This isn't a Shaolin-do topic! No one is calling each other names or questioning each other's lineage!:mad: :mad:

okay, I got one for y'all: If that hairy guy was such a bad ass, how come there are no other legends of him? If he mastered a lot of styles, he'd have a lot of teachers. And wouldn't those teachers also have other students? And wouldn't those other students wonder "how did that hairy mother$%^&* master our school so fast" ? Even if he only mastered one style and repeatedly kicked ass, he'd be more legendary than Wong Fei Hung or Fong Sai Yuk, just by being hairy. Like another guy who supposedly had white eyebrows.

and I'm gonna the throw in the required YOU'RE ALL FRAUDS!! :p :p :p :p

carry on

It's funny when someone posts what you are thinking...

:p ;)

[Wharg0ul]

funny when someone tosses a match into an oil spill.

Other than that, I'm not going to bother to comment on an obvious attempt to cause trouble.

[themeecer]

Yawn.:o

[Judge Pen]

TTT cho. We've talked about all that (and nothing will ever ve resolved!) :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by shen ku
you know i think alot of people forget that in alot of areas of this country a 1st or 2nd is much more than most have and alot of people appriciate the chance to learn period.

oh but i was reading about a school just to day ( buisness side of the martial arts ) they had a program where if some on wanted to be a martial arts instructor.....with having never had any training.....doing for a buisness..... they could take you from beginner to black belt instructor and in offer buisness training on how to run a profitable school ... long trem .... in just 1 year yes just 12 months??????? I would expect anyone of those students to be about as good, or worse, as any other 12 month student. The belt doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I would expect anyone of those students to be about as good, or worse, as any other 12 month student. The belt doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up.

That's always true. Rank means nothing no matter the manner of expression (belt, sash, certificate). What's in your head and how can your body express the mind's intent against a resisting opponent vs what's around your waist or hanging on your wall.

[David Jamieson]

Rank means nothing no matter the manner of expression (belt, sash, certificate).

you tell that to the Marine DI when you get drafted. :p

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
you tell that to the Marine DI when you get drafted. :p

I'm too old to get drafted.

[MasterKiller]

I'm too pretty to get drafted.

[Dark Knight]

Kinda silly for a student scoping out schools to sign up under someone who's been training for less than 10 years. But of course you have kids and what-not who don't bother researching their school.

Rank or time in does not mean you can teach. When you go to a school you are looking for someone that can teach you and coach you.

I wouldnt be quick to judge an instructor on time in compared to knowledge and teaching ability.

[Dark Knight]

The greatest fighters don't necessarily make the greatest teachers.

Exactly

[oldmonkey]

So what have we learned so far, kids?

Gene wants to mess with our colons and MK is too pretty to get drafted...?

The SD teachers I know are exceptional martial artists.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by oldmonkey
The SD teachers I know are exceptional martial artists.

Ditto, here in Colorado.

[GeneChing]

...don't bring my colon messing into your Shaolin Do debates. That has nothing to do with it. Or if it does, I really don't want to know and recant my colon messing comment. :eek:

[serene_dragon]

My thoughts on instructors- It all depends on individuals, experience is allways a plus, for new students (who are serious about martial arts) it would be recomended to check the history and if the instructor are still affiliated with his or her system. Also is the instructor someone is is still trying to further his or her abilities and knowledge of martial arts.

A 1st black can be a good instructor for beginners if he or she is continueing on but for someone who does jump from system to system after reaching black belt and has experience in many different styles then you would be better off finding a more experienced instructor.

For those who jump around from system to system you will never truely get the best that each one has to offer (with the exception of those styles that when you reach black belt they tell you to go learn a different one)
I know that I dont teach this kind of martial artist the best that my style has to offer. And I dont believe other serious martial artist do either.

[serene_dragon]

Cho said this is not a Shaolin subject

So he does comment on a Shaolin topic even if it is in a way to put Shaolin down.

He refers to the hairy guy who mastered all of Shaolin. And he wanders why he doesnt have more stories told about him doing amazing things.

My thoughts would be for someone to master all of Shaolin, then he had to put a lifetime of training and practice into it. I doubt he had alot of spare time and I doubt that he went out looking for trouble or even went out much at all because of his appearance. And for someone who didnt show off his abilities or be made to display them on another person in defense or any other reason then he should be admired not questioned.

[Starchaser107]

:)

[Fred Sanford]

My thoughts would be for someone to master all of Shaolin, then he had to put a lifetime of training and practice into it. I doubt he had alot of spare time and I doubt that he went out looking for trouble or even went out much at all because of his appearance. And for someone who didnt show off his abilities or be made to display them on another person in defense or any other reason then he should be admired not questioned.

sure that explains it. :rolleyes:

Are you going to tell us about Sin The's movie too???

[cerebus]

That seems to be the problem. The whole "Let's just admire him, not question him" attitude. Let's not have any concern for the truth. Just stop thinking and do as you're told. :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by cerebus
That seems to be the problem. The whole "Let's just admire him, not question him" attitude. Let's not have any concern for the truth. Just stop thinking and do as you're told. :rolleyes:

It is a problem (and not just in SD, but certainly we are a prime example). I can't explain everything about our history and lineage. I don't try to. . . . I worry about the efficacy of the art, how well my teachers teach, how well I learn and apply what I know, and if I can use it in a pinch. That's why I still train in SD. Not because I can find independent sources to verify Ie Chang Ming or Su Kong Tai Jin, but because I have good martial artists as my teachers. But I do question things and consider all the counter-points. Just because they don't "change my mind" and convince me to train exclusively elsewhere doesn’t mean I don't question and think for myself.

But part of the problem is that some students can't do that, get on these forums citing the party lines without autonomous thought, and eventually they recess deeper into their hole or their world comes crashing down around them. A little free thought never hurt anyone.

[Radhnoti]

Well said JP.

However, I would agree with the criticism that certain higher-ups in SD don't (in my opinion) want anything short of blind obedience. You just happen to be in an area of the SD political world where that's not AS MUCH of an issue.

I also doubt this is an issue exclusive to SD...in fact it could (and has) been argued that this is quite common in traditional CMA styles.

[Ralphie]

imo, the problem with SD is not uncommon in any other so called martial arts program/style. At the core, they lack any real method to teach skill; weather it's skill in fighting or performing. Even with this lack of methodology, there's still insane claims of deadly techniques and otherworldy powers. To its credit, Kung Fu has developed venues that test both performance and fighting skill. The schools that do not engage in these things, usually do so out of fear of being fraudulant. While they insulate themselves with ill founded thoughts like the old "what is taught here is to deadly for the ring", the reality of it is they have developed cult-like adherence to a bunk credo. It pays better to brand yourself outside of public competition. It is also easier to talk up your credentials than to prove them to a discerning audience.

One of the many negative things that comes out of these types of isolated groups, beyond being bilked out of your money, is that if you have a stated goal, that type of venue does not support it. Your essentially taking a shot in the dark in hopes that you hit your target. Of course, unless, your goal is to congregate with people who like to regurgatate familiar BS stories about people they don't know, and maybe workout a little bit.

I know, this story is about other people, or sub-groups in your organization. No way could this mirror your experience, because your sifu has been studying for 30 years under Grandmaster Gobblygook, who is of the heir to the shao lin throne. I don't know, i guess it's up to you to think critically about these things...

[Judge Pen]

Ralphie, did you mean to say that the problem with SD is not common in any other martial arts program/style? I think that's what you were trying to say.

And we can only speak from our own experience. No more and no less. I am, however, always willing to work out with other groups. I don't isolate myself.

[Ralphie]

Actually, I was saying it is not uncommon (unfortunately). What I left out was "many" so called...instead of "any". IMO, it is turning the other way, but still too much isolationism/cult behavior in many martial arts circles. I was trying to make it not just a Shao lin Do thing, but a problem that exists in general.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
And we can only speak from our own experience. No more and no less. I am, however, always willing to work out with other groups. I don't isolate myself. True...but at the same time, I have yet to see an SD'er at Taiji Legacy. It's the biggest traditional tournament in the Southwest, and there are plenty of SD schools in TX or LA that could represent. Hell, there are people from Mexico City, South Africa, China, England, etc... but no one from the Dallas SD schools can make it? Ever?

[Judge Pen]

You're right MK. I suppose some SDers have gone, but I don't know of it. I know that there's been some SDers at the Battle of Atlanta in the past, but I don't know how they faired (which probably means they weren't outstanding but doesn't mean that they were bad). I've considered going to the TaiJi legacy myself, but last years schedule and injury interferred with me (I wouldn't have done forms anyway, but I would have considered fighting). This year's schedule isn't looking favorable either but it's possible. They have an old man's division down there?

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
They have an old man's division down there?

Yeah but you're too young... :eek:

Me on the other hand... :D

[Judge Pen]

I'm not only too old, but like MK I'm just too pretty! :p We'll see who moves slower this weekend!

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I'm not only too old, but like MK I'm just too pretty! :p We'll see who moves slower this weekend!

Cool... :eek:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
They have an old man's division down there? Yeah, but it's 35+. So, for the next 3 years, I have to lose to 20 year olds.

[Jhapa]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
True...but at the same time, I have yet to see an SD'er at Taiji Legacy. It's the biggest traditional tournament in the Southwest, and there are plenty of SD schools in TX or LA that could represent. Hell, there are people from Mexico City, South Africa, China, England, etc... but no one from the Dallas SD schools can make it? Ever?

may be because the taichi taught at SD is slightly different than other taichi schools. for yang 24, there are several differences that i've noticed and i only taken taichi for 3 months, well at least here in southern texas.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Jhapa
may be because the taichi taught at SD is slightly different than other taichi schools. for yang 24, there are several differences that i've noticed and i only taken taichi for 3 months, well at least here in southern texas. Taiji Legacy is a traditional Kung Fu tournament, not a Tai Chi tournament. Last year they had about 1,500 competitors in San Shou, Forms, Weapons, Wushu, Shuai Chiao, and Tai Chi divisions. If you guys got out more, you'd know that. ;)

[norther practitioner]

Thats what I don't get, yang 24 is a standardized set.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Thats what I don't get, yang 24 is a standardized set. It's because the entire world except SD does wushu, NP. Even though the 24-step set is wushu. :p

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
It's because the entire world except SD does wushu, NP. Even though the 24-step set is wushu. :p

That's it right there. I don't practice Kung-Fu to look pretty and impress judges. Wushu is cool and all, but I prefer something a bit more practical.

Weather or not SD's origins/lineage can be proven or not, it's an effective fighting art...(IF the student goes the extra mile and actually practices application)..or at least in the way it's tought here in Colorado. I say this from practical, personal experience, not as a parroting of the claims of my teacher.

We're encouraged here to read books and investigate other systems. There's none of the "cult mentality" that I keep reading about here. I guess I should consider myself fortunate to have a good teacher with more than just SD as a background.

[norther practitioner]

While it is standardized wushu, that is a form that I have used with some success in push hands comps around the country. Well that and two moves from the long form.

[Wharg0ul]

well, to clarify, I wasn't speaking specifically of Combined 24. I practice it, and use it to great sucess in application.

[wdl]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I've considered going to the TaiJi legacy myself, but last years schedule and injury interferred with me (I wouldn't have done forms anyway, but I would have considered fighting). This year's schedule isn't looking favorable either but it's possible. [/B]

I'm in the same boat. Since I've got family in Austin it's a doable trip for me. However it looks like I'll be in Denver for two weeks in june and I don't really want to turn around and go to Dallas the next month.

To address the other point made, why none of the SD schools in Texas/LA attend. I think they would do themselves a favor by attending and competing. Better to be out on the floor than sitting on the bench.

-Will

[serene_dragon]

Am I missing something?

I dont see what the big deal is about competing in tournaments. I have competed in open as well as closed tournaments, I have brought home trophies but not much more. Yes you do learn techn. that will get you points and how to perform your katas to impress the judges, but how does that help me in a real situation.
In my opinion all it does is hender me. What I mean by that is you dont fight in a tourn the same as you would on the street. So what benefits do I get for the time spent as well as the money to compete in somthing that has such a small influence in my training. And if you do practice to do beter in tourn. then you are practicing something that in a real situation will get you hurt, or your shortcutting your katas to the point that you are loosing the techn. that are there. I find my time is beter spent studying my mat. and getting together with freinds and colleagues to practice.

[wdl]

Originally posted by serene_dragon
Am I missing something?

So what benefits do I get for the time spent as well as the money to compete in somthing that has such a small influence in my training.

Alot. By going to open and closed tournaments you get to meet people and make friends, maybe enemies, contacts etc. This allows you to get a view into other people's mindset. You might have to fight someone on the street from another style. Getting an idea of what to expect from them is a step ahead. While you may not get that idea from sparring with them once at a tournament, through the sharing of thoughts and ideas with people you meet you can.

Tournaments benefit you in many more ways. I don't train my forms to impress judges, Tournaments give me a reason to pick a form and work it over and over again, not to flash it up, not to make it what someone wants to see, but make it closer to how it was taught. Who cares about a piece of plastic on a little wooden base? As far as sparring goes, I learn something at every tournament I attend. Whether it's how to counter a technique or something as simple as bringing something to drink with you and keeping it close to the ring for between fights(learned that one at my second tournament). While the things you learn may not be directly appliable on the street, who cares? Your still learning something. That's the point isn't it.

-Will

[Starchaser107]

why don't you compete in san shou or some other full contact tournament.

[wdl]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
why don't you compete in san shou or some other full contact tournament.

I think he's including those too because you can't rip the other dudes arm out of socket and stuff it down his throat backwards while breaking his knee. Plus other dude isn't trying to do the same to you, literally. Figuratively maybe. :D

Another thing serene_dragon, training to tournament spar trains you to be light on your feet and mobile. How does that not help you in a street fight?

-Will

[Starchaser107]

sigh

[norther practitioner]

practice to do beter in tourn. then you are practicing something that in a real situation will get you hurt, or your shortcutting your katas to the point that you are loosing the techn. that are there. I find my time is beter spent studying my mat. and getting together with freinds and colleagues to practice.

sigh

[Ralphie]

i was going to reply, but....

*sigh*

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Yeah, but it's 35+. So, for the next 3 years, I have to lose to 20 year olds.

Plan: Go and watch and train for the next 5 years! :D

[MasterKiller]

You know, they have paramedics on site at Taiji Legacy for a reason...I've seen shoulders and elbows dislocated from throws off the platform. If that's not real enough for you, perhaps you are Batman.

[Judge Pen]

Honestly, Serene Dragon, peer review is essential in any field. Why not get out there and practice with other martial artists that study other styles? There's no reason not to if the opportunities are available.

[Judge Pen]

But, the Battle of Atlanta has a Division for Men 30-39. There's a thought. . . . I wonder if my knee will be ok by then. . . .

How much do you weigh, MK? :D

[MasterKiller]

Between 175 and 178, depending on how many Dr. Pepper's I've had during the week. :D

[Judge Pen]

Dam n. We would be in a different weight class. I'm at 190 now, but should be down to 180 by October.

[serene_dragon]

The fastest way to find out about someone is to put forth a closed minded remark and observe the response.

Im not at all closed minded as I have let on, I have taken other styles untill i found the one that best works for me. I do enjoy tourn. I try to go at least once or twice a year (if time and money permits) I do agree there is alot you can get out of a tourn. (especially open)
and everyone had a good point to make on this topic. The bigger the variety the more educational the experience is the way I really feel.

Which brings me to the point that I would like to make, there is no one perfect style for everyone. The Style I am in is right for me, but it may not be right for starchaser, MK, or some of you other guys, and what works for you may not work for me.

So why do some of you guys feel the need to put down other systems/styles? I personally think the variety of different systems is a good thing.

(all the sighs was humorous)

[wdl]

Originally posted by serene_dragon
The fastest way to find out about someone is to put forth a closed minded remark and observe the response.


Manipulative, fancy that.

Once again another reason why you can't believe 100% of what anyone tells you online unless you've met them in person know how to judge them.

-Will

[wdl]

Originally posted by wdl
Manipulative, fancy that.

Once again another reason why you can't believe 100% of what anyone tells you online unless you've met them in person know how to judge them or they come with good references.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

I sighed too when I read your post because it was a stupid post. Glad to know you have more sense about you, but I'll never pay attention to anything you post here for fear of being misled.

As far as putting down systems and styles, some people here are just plain arses. Others put down a style because of the ridiculous things said about it. That's why you should always think carefully about how you represent yourself. It reflects on your teachers whether you want it to or not.

[Brad]

Can Shaolin-Do really be called a style or system? It's an organization claiming to teach many different styles/systems. I just think people should stop calling Shaolin-Do a style. Anyway, that's all I've got to say for now :p

[Judge Pen]

Hey Brad, how's the leg?

[wdl]

Originally posted by Brad
Can Shaolin-Do really be called a style or system? It's an organization claiming to teach many different styles/systems. I just think people should stop calling Shaolin-Do a style. Anyway, that's all I've got to say for now :p


Style, maybe not. System yes. There is an order to it. It starts basic and works it's way from there. It's follows a typical development path like most systems do. Stances, punches, kicks etc. Basic movements then long forms. You don't get your hands on an edged weapon until about a year+ etc.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Brad
Can Shaolin-Do really be called a style or system? It's an organization claiming to teach many different styles/systems. I just think people should stop calling Shaolin-Do a style. Anyway, that's all I've got to say for now :p

Brad, I officially give you permission to stop calling Shaolin-Do a style, system and any other name that you don't care for. Consider it a late Christmas present.........ho ho ho

[Starchaser107]

from what I have seen of shaolin-do I would say it classifies as a style. Even based on the statement that it is an "organization" that teaches various styles. There is a codified way of movement that unifies everything under the umbrella od s-d and makes it different from the systems themselves.
In other words, for example the way s-d does "long fist" is similar in s-d circles, but different enough from the way other places that do long fist to consider how s-d does it a style.
this is just from my observation of course.

[cho]

It most definitely is a style and system. Its origins are just not what they claim to be, and that's what bugs everyone.

[Brad]

I see everyones points, but does teaching another style really badly classify it as a style on its own? From what I've observed the different styles that they teach are supposed to have their own unique properties and training methods. I guess there's some things within Shaolin-Do that are unique to Shaolin-Do(some stuff in the basic training probably, like their short forms, and some other forms like "10,000 bees attack" (which I'm dying to see, by the way ;)). With the taiji and chang quan(for example), they seem to be practicing legit forms and are trying to use legit training methods... it's not another style though, it's just that their missing stuff from their systems. Guess it's all how you look at it though...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad
I guess there's some things within Shaolin-Do that are unique to Shaolin-Do(some stuff in the basic training probably, like their short forms, and some other forms like "10,000 bees attack" (which I'm dying to see, by the way ;)).

No one has seen that form in SD from what I gather. I'd be first in line to see that one too.

IN the older days of SD, when everyone trained directly with the The brothers I think the basics of each unqiue form and style were taught. The older guys (no offense GT and BM2) talk of training for 6 months on drills and excercies before being taught a new form. Nowadays, the teachers usually just teach to form and pay a little lip service to what distinguishes them from another form. I think that's the biggest problem with our system; people get too forms hungry (students to learn them and teachers to teach them) and never focus on the basics.

As for shortform, you are right. They are the fundamental "spine" of SD as a system or style or whatever you want to define it as.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I think that's the biggest problem with our system; people get too forms hungry (students to learn them and teachers to teach them) and never focus on the basics.In my system I've got 2 1/3 forms in 2 1/3 years. Haven't learnt anything new in 10mths or so. We mostly just drill and spar.

[shen ku]

JP you are all to right about people getting form hungry,
but i do try to attend all of GM SIN's seminars if for no other reason that to get togather with like minded people,
but no matter how many forms i learn i continue to go back to the basics. every thing i have done has always made me look back and find similar moves or tech. in the upper forms as i could see in the lower forms (just would always be a little harder version )

[oldmonkey]

Stylistic variation is more the rule than the exception, even within the same lineage.

Take Yang style T’ai Chi for example. Cheng Man Ching made changes to the form and his students represent an interesting range of stylistic variation...looking at William C.C. Chen, T. T. Liang, Robert Chuckrow, and Herman Kauz just to mention a few. That variety hasn’t diminished the art. Evolution and change is what keeps an art alive. SD is no different in this regard.

So many martial arts trace their origins to Shaolin. Just because they are different, doesn’t invalidate them. It's a strength, not a weakness.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by oldmonkey
Stylistic variation is more the rule than the exception, even within the same lineage.

Take Yang style T’ai Chi for example. Cheng Man Ching made changes to the form and his students represent an interesting range of stylistic variation...looking at William C.C. Chen, T. T. Liang, Robert Chuckrow, and Herman Kauz just to mention a few. That variety hasn’t diminished the art. Evolution and change is what keeps an art alive. SD is no different in this regard.


Nicely put.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by oldmonkey
So many martial arts trace their origins to Shaolin. Just because they are different, doesn’t invalidate them. There is a difference between tracing your lineage to Shaolin, which a lot of styles can certainly do, and claiming you have the complete and final Shaolin transmission as it was taught before the last Fukien burning, especially when Fukien was probably destroyed 300 or so years ago and your style looks like a *******ized version of all the other legitmate and documented styles that can rightly claim Shaolin roots. In my opinion.

[wdl]

Has anyone gotten someone that can read Indo to translate the 2000 Jurus article on GM Sin?

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Judge Pen

The older guys (no offense GT and BM2)

Like a fine wine.......

[oldmonkey]

MK, you say "probably destroyed"....?

When you have to qualify your opinion with words like "probably" your argument flies out the window. Probability has nothing to do with it.

What YOU think happened is limited by your imagination and your personal bias.

You don't like it. That's the sum total of your opinion. That your are suspicious only reveals that you have a suspicious nature.

It's o.k., you don't have to like it...but your hypothesis is meaningless.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by oldmonkey
MK, you say "probably destroyed"....?

When you have to qualify your opinion with words like "probably" your argument flies out the window. Probability has nothing to do with it. I said "Probably" because there is no physical evidence it even existed. Consentual history places it's destruction around 1647, but since there is no physical evidence, it can't be nailed down exactly.

At any rate, SD's claim that it was destroyed circa 1890 should be more easily verifiable...So where's the ruins...?

[Starchaser107]

what!!!?!

[MasterKiller]

That your are suspicious only reveals that you have a suspicious nature. Yeah, riiiiiight. No one outside of SD circles lends any credence to the bull**** history you try to pass off as fact. Even the REAL history about the Indonsian law banning Chinese arts doesn't fit into the SD version of the account by about 50 years or so. Every piece of history that comes out of your organization is laughable. And you wonder why people are suspicious? Maybe you're just too gullible. Or stupid. Or both.

[Judge Pen]

Wasn't there an article in KFM a few years back regarding the archeological evidence of a southern temple in Fujian? I saw a reference to that article on this forum once, but never got to read the article myself.

Also, isn't there speculation that there may have been more than one temple in Fujian?

Oldmonkey, I understood why MK qualified his statement. Several styles claim lineage to a Southern temple that may or may not have existed. Most, if not all, have the destruction of that temple occurring well before SD's history claims.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Wasn't there an article in KFM a few years back regarding the archeological evidence of a southern temple in Fujian? I saw a reference to that article on this forum once, but never got to read the article myself. Not everyone agrees that the ruins in question are indeed the fabled Fukien Temple. Some people have been very eager to jump on the claim. Others are being more reserved until all the facts are in. At any rate, the destruction of those ruins is placed well before the SD timeline.


Also, isn't there speculation that there may have been more than one temple in Fujian? There seems to be evidence that there were several smaller adjunct temples. None of them were destroyed anywhere near the timeframe SD claims, as far as I know. Whether or not they had a martial legacy is a different can of worms altogether.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Even the REAL history about the Indonsian law banning Chinese arts doesn't fit into the SD version of the account by about 50 years or so.

My e-mail correspondence with Dr. Davies who authored the article that MK keeps referring to:

From: Philip Davies
[mailto:Philip.Davies@brunel.ac.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 7:29 AM
To:[Judge Pen's private e-mail account]
Subject: FW: Kung Fu, Kung Tao, and Shaolin-Do

Dear [Judge Pen]

Thank you for your letter. I have seen some published materials about and by Mr. Sin, but can't speak with any direct knowledge of its art and its antecedents. I have, however, lived and worked in Singapore, Malaysia and spent time in Java researching the kuntao tradition in which I have trained (and have also dealt extensively with the International Pencak Silat Federation in Jakarta who are the main martial arts body in Indonesia).

First off, let me say a couple of things to give some wider context. A lot of the Indonesian systems brought to the west have 'nebulous'
histories, as
do arts practiced commonly in Southeast Asia today.
Some schools are
very
systematic about tracking their linneage (Cimande in West Java can trace every single teacher back to 'Mbah Khair c.1750) while other arts like Matjan Putih (White Tiger Silat) are recent recombinations of skills in which sometimes even the teacher has lost track of what he learned from whom. Indonesians and Malays view their systems as 'living arts' in which new schools, permutations and combinations come into existence while others die out. They are also less concerned with exact genealogies than East Asian traditions. And this will undoubtedly have influenced the Indonesianised 'peranakan' Chinese, as will the tendency to permutate and combine rather than preserve in aspic as it were. As a result, just about every art that came west with the post-revolutionary diaspora has some nebulosity in its background; the Kuntao Matjan of my own tradition, Carel Faulhaber (via Paatje Richard Kudding), Willem de Thouars Kuntao-Silat, the late Willem Reeders 'Royal Family' Kuntao, the late Willi Wetzel's regrettably spelled '****ao' (part of his effective but idiosyncratic 'pukulan cimande chuan fa') and even the de Thouars version of Serak all have patchy and incomplete histories, and mostly oral rather than documentary history to work from at that. This is no criticism; matters aren't a lot different in Southeast Asia either. So the Shaolin do/Sin Kwang The' situation is pretty consistent with the broader field of kuntao.

OK, now as regards the ban on Chinese arts, technically the legislation after the Generals' Coup prohibited Chinese art and literature and public displays of Chinese culture (lion dance, ghost festival &c). The actual legislation is a matter of public record, and while I do not have the legislative specifics to hand, I am sure you could get the exact legislation from a specialist Indonesianist (perhaps someone like Leo Suryadinata at the National University of Singapore who specialises in the contemporary history of the Indonesian Chinese). You could also find more specific background in my academic article on kuntao which was in the summer 2000 edition of the _Journal of Asian Martial Arts_ (which, unlike KF-QG magazine, has full citations for sources in its articles). The ban on Chinese martial arts was an incidental application of legislation designed to prohibit Chinese publishing and political communication. According to O'ong Maryono, who published a good book on Pencak Silat shortly after my own articles came out, under the ban the Pencak Silat organisation tried to incorporate Chinese kung-fu within silat, but unsuccessfully.
They felt the
Chinese
were too influential within silat, while other Chinese teachers simply refused to cooperate and a lot went underground. A lot did not, however, and a lot of kuntao continued to be practiced as an 'open secret' on the don't-ask'don't-tell kind of principle. To complicate matters, some of the leading pencak silat systems established since the 1940s are openly based on kung-fu, such as Perisai Diri (Surabaya), Persai Sakti
(Semarang) and
Bangau
Putih (Bandung).

I'm not aware of any local prior bans, but it's possible that Chinese martial arts got supressed by the Japanese during their wartime occupation.
From the movements and internal history of arts like Garuda Emas Kuntao (Golden Eagle kuntao in Semarang) and the careers of leading boxers like Liu Song, Lim Tjoei Kang and Lou Ban Tang in Jakarta, Semarang and Solo it looks pretty unlikely that there was much active repression of kuntao apart from the general suppression of the Chinese on racial grounds much as one would have seen in Taiwan or Shanghai. There were, however, intermittent purges, pogroms and persecutions of the ethnic Chinese, most notable being the massacres during the anti-Chinese riots of the 1880s.

All of that being said, however, I don't really think that 'Japananising'
kung fu or calling it Shaolin Do would have deceived anybody in Indonesia.
Chinese boxing is too well known throughout the region, and most silat practitioners I know can spot Chinese styles or Chinese-influenced techniques (many will privately admit they believe Silat derives from kung fu originally), and Shaolin is a very, very well known name. A lot of arts in Java took on Japanese traits during the occupation, and after, when the high degree of Japanese martial arts organisation and the obvious power of arts like Judo and Karate set a kind of standard to which a lot of Indonesians felt they should aspire (hence Japanese-infuenced composite arts like PORBIKAWA). So the Japanisation may have been more a reflection of an endemic eclecticism than any real strategy of concealment.

Just to complicate matters further again, a lot of kuntao arts adopted Japanese characteristics when they began to be taught in the west.
This was
partly because of trying to provide an appearance that Western audiences familiar mainly with Japanese systems could relate to, and partly because Western students responded very poorly to the Indonesian and Chinese approaches to teaching basics. Teachers found westerners more interested in arts with Japanese and Korean style kicks than arcane, close-range handwork, and they found it easier to get westerners to learn long, Japanese forward steps, back-stances, kiba dachi &c than trying to get them to do Chinese horse-training (hours in static postures) or repetitive but complex Indonesian footwork drills. As a result, you find Willem Reeders building a lot of his teaching around a base of ****o Ryo karate and pictures of Kuntao Matjan students in Holland (where Japanisation was even more pronounced because of the central national role of the Judokwai) doing forward stances with Japanese-style high blocks (neither of which occur in the traditional form of the art).

I don't know if this helps at all,

Best regards,

Philip H.J. Davies

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Not everyone agrees that the ruins in question are indeed the fabled Fukien Temple. Some people have been very eager to jump on the claim. Others are being more reserved until all the facts are in. At any rate, the destruction of those ruins is placed well before the SD timeline.

There seems to be evidence that there were several smaller adjunct temples. None of them were destroyed anywhere near the timeframe SD claims, as far as I know. Whether or not they had a martial legacy is a different can of worms altogether.

Lot's of room for error and interpretation in what we do know of the southern temples. In short, it proves and "disproves" nothing.

[MasterKiller]

All of that being said, however, I don't really think that 'Japananising' kung fu or calling it Shaolin Do would have deceived anybody in Indonesia. Chinese boxing is too well known throughout the region, and most silat practitioners I know can spot Chinese styles or Chinese-influenced techniques (many will privately admit they believe Silat derives from kung fu originally), and Shaolin is a very, very well known name.I wondered why you never posted his email...until now.

[Judge Pen]

Nah, what he said was what several, including themeecer have argued was part of the gi wearing thing (convenience and familiarity for Americans). Again, I don't try to get too caught up in the history or lineage part of SD. It's unverifiable by any independent sources. If I wanted to delete that portion of the e-mail, I could have and no one but me and Dr. Davies would have known the difference. I had actually lost that e-mail and asked Radhotni to forward it to me since I had forwarded it to him. He recently did that and I posted it once the topic came back around.

Sorry MK, I've nothing to hide. :cool:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Nah, what he said was what several, including themeecer have argued was part of the gi wearing thing (convenience and familiarity for Americans). Again, I don't try to get too caught up in the history or lineage part of SD. It's unverifiable by any independent sources. If I wanted to delete that portion of the e-mail, I could have and no one but me and Dr. Davies would have known the difference. I had actually lost that e-mail and asked Radhotni to forward it to me since I had forwarded it to him. He recently did that and I posted it once the topic came back around.

Sorry MK, I've nothing to hide. :cool: So who came up with the lamo story about Ie changing everything to Japanese to fool the Indonesians, then? If you guys tell a different story internally, that it was for Western convienence, why does SD tell a different story externally, that it's to honor Ie's struggle to maintain the Shaolin arts while being persecuted?

And BTW, that whole email pretty much rips the SD claim of original transmission to shreds, not just the paragraph I quoted. It lends more credence to what we've said all along--It's a hodgepodge of other styles.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
So who came up with the lamo story about Ie changing everything to Japanese to fool the Indonesians, then? If you guys tell a different story internally, that it was for Western convienence, why does SD tell a different story externally, that it's to honor Ie's struggle to maintain the Shaolin arts while being persecuted?

And BTW, that whole email pretty much rips the SD claim of original transmission to shreds, not just the paragraph I quoted. It lends more credence to what we've said all along--It's a hodgepodge of other styles.

The e-mail doesn't comment on SD as a style specifically MK, just the general state of martial arts in Indonesia. Having said that, everyone who studies SD admits it's a patchwork art comprising several styles of CMA. If it was mixed with Japanese techniques no one in the art is saying it. I don't know; I'm nobody in SD, but I am a student who asks questions. Maybe SD mixed karate into it, maybe it only borrowed some of the trappings. No doubt it's history is nebelous which isn't uncommon with any martial art that came through Indonesia.

"First off, let me say a couple of things to give some wider context. A lot of the Indonesian systems brought to the west have 'nebulous'
histories, as
do arts practiced commonly in Southeast Asia today."

As for the bans:

"I'm not aware of any local prior bans, but it's possible that Chinese martial arts got supressed by the Japanese during their wartime occupation"

And for SD's official story regarding hiding the arts:

"According to O'ong Maryono, who published a good book on Pencak Silat shortly after my own articles came out, under the ban the Pencak Silat organisation tried to incorporate Chinese kung-fu within silat, but unsuccessfully.
They felt the
Chinese
were too influential within silat, while other Chinese teachers simply refused to cooperate and a lot went underground. A lot did not, however, and a lot of kuntao continued to be practiced as an 'open secret' on the don't-ask'don't-tell kind of principle."

Maybe it didn't fool anyone like it's said today. Maybe the officials didn't care, but Master Ie thought they did. I don't know. I prefer to talk about technique because much of this stuff is unprovable one way or the other.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
"First off, let me say a couple of things to give some wider context. A lot of the Indonesian systems brought to the west have 'nebulous' histories, as do arts practiced commonly in Southeast Asia today."

You left off the good part:


while other arts like Matjan Putih (White Tiger Silat) are recent recombinations of skills in which sometimes even the teacher has lost track of what he learned from whom. Indonesians and Malays view their systems as 'living arts' in which new schools, permutations and combinations come into existence while others die out. They are also less concerned with exact genealogies than East Asian traditions. And this will undoubtedly have influenced the Indonesianised 'peranakan' Chinese, as will the tendency to permutate and combine rather than preserve in aspic as it were.

Which would explain why it appears Sin The' keeps adding new forms to the curriculum that more than likely weren't there when he was originially training (24-step Yang is obvious, but I have a feeling he's been adding a whole lot more than he lets on or you guys are willing to admit.) It also implies the "900 forms" thing is just a pretty convenient cover story to mask this practice.

Which shoots a big hole in the "original transmission" theory as well.

[Judge Pen]

I didn't leave off anything MK. I pasted the e-mail in it's entirety! :p

No one denies that Yang 24 was picked up and taught to SDs students because Sin The wanted us to know the most popular form of Tai Chi. GT said that he was there when Sin The first taught it out. (Again you keep accusing us of hiding stuff that we are not).

As for other stuff, it's been mentioned before: there were several teachers other than Ie Chang Ming. We don't know who taught what in Indonesia. We don't know what, if anything, was picked up later. I don't know and you don't know.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I have a feeling he's been adding a whole lot more than he lets on or you guys are willing to admit.

No offense, but your feelings aren't a big concern of mine. I like you logicial arguments though.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
(Again you keep accusing us of hiding stuff that we are not).
Well, I was thinking more like the Chen fan form...even though Chen has no fan form. Those kinds of things.

No offense, but your feelings aren't a big concern of mine.None taken. It's not like I give a hoot about anyone's feelings here either. It's just the internet.

[Judge Pen]

I don't know if Chen has a fan form. Fan forms are common though. I have a fan form and I was told it was Chen. . . . . maybe it's not. Maybe it is something that a Chen guy in Indoneisa made up one day and taught it to Ie's students. Maybe Sin The made it up altogether. Maybe it was lost. I don't know. To be fair, you don't know either; you just know that no one in Chen's lineage claims to have a fan form. Does that mean that the form was stolen, made up by Sin The? Made up by someone else? Forgotten by someone? I don't know. I don't pretend to know.

I do know that it's a good form; not my favorite, but good applications for that type of weapon.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
you just know that no one in Chen's lineage claims to have a fan form. Well, it's not like Chen Taiji is 1,000 years old and went through 6 temple burnings or anything. The lineage is easily traced and verifiable.

[Judge Pen]

Ok. So it was either forgotten/lost or created outside the official lineage. (I don't know which). I do know it's not uncommon for students of a style, once they reach a certain level, to create forms using the principles of that style. New forms are being created now in style with very respectable lineages. Is this what happend with SD (either by Sin The or by someone else in the system? With this fan form? I don't know, maybe. Maybe not.

[MasterKiller]

I don't argue with that. People make up forms all the time. I've made up forms for some of my students to perform at shows. I also make sure they know I made it up for them. Leading them to believe otherwise would be dishonest. Paying for a ceremony at Chen village to disguise that dishonesty would be flat out pathetic.

[Judge Pen]

Paying for a ceremony? I thought that was at Henan for the tablet.

[norther practitioner]

I do Clark family kung fu and taiji at every tourney....;)

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Paying for a ceremony? I thought that was at Henan for the tablet.

Nah ... it was paid for & placed at the wrong location. Big hubub about it...

[AndyM]

Is it just me, or does this guy resemble Dubbya?

http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/JMooney.jpg

[serene_dragon]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So who came up with the lamo story about Ie changing everything to Japanese to fool the Indonesians, then? If you guys tell a different story internally, that it was for Western convienence, why does SD tell a different story externally, that it's to honor Ie's struggle to maintain the Shaolin arts while being persecuted?
__________________________________________________ _

My opinion of this statement

Take 5 people and teach them a kata or tell them a story at the same time and have them perform that kata or tell that story at a later date. Time and time again you will see that there will be differences in the way the kata are performed and the story are told.

This is the way it is in all teaching I suspect.

As an instructor, I see it all the time. The students who do perform the katas the way they was taught is the students you look at to pass on the teachings when their time comes.

I know how I was told the stories go by my instructor and by GM The', and I also know I have heard many different versions of the same stories from other people in the art. I have no concrete proof of who is right or who is wrong. I am not going to argue about it. I am more worried about the training I get than if all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed in the history.(I am very satisfied with the training)

This is just my opinion

[shen ku]

JP ya there is a tablet in chen village to master sin , and as sean_stonehart said it was paid for by many of the shaolin-do masters, and it was not made as it was ordered and it was not placed where they had been told it would be and some people were ****ed off over it,
and on the chen fan i do remember that at chen village master sin and ? a chen family member?? spoke of that in their linage there had been a fan form and he pointed and a chart of the family as to show at what time it was not passed on, and JP if you get the chance go on one of the china trips with master sin ,trust me you will enjoy it!!

just don't ride the buses in tebit , ask sean_stonehart?

[serene_dragon]

Shen Ku

You went to China with GM Sin The'. Did you vistit any temples or Shaolin schools while you was there?

If you did there might be a few people reading this thread who are interested in knowing how the masters in the temples treated Grandmaster Sin The'. If they showed him respect as a Grandmaster or if they treated him like just another martial artist visiting the temples.

Maybe you could put your thoughts on the subject.

I only ask because I see some people who have a passion about trying to discredit Grandmaster Sin The' and his teachings.

I am curious as to where this passion comes from, is it people who have been removed from this system who is trying to discredit it or is it just jealousy. Who knows it could be anything.
But I would like to hear your thoughts because you was there.

[norther practitioner]

or is it just jealousy.

some should do some searches through the archives.... granted some of it is drivel, and some of it is not.

[serene_dragon]

I am curious as to where this passion comes from, is it people who have been removed from this system who is trying to discredit it or is it just jealousy. Who knows it could be anything.
______________________________________________

I dont mean to imply that it could only be these two reasons if anyone took it that way.

[Judge Pen]

Sure, Sean, wait until I'm on a 3 hour trip to respond! :D

[shen ku]

serene_dragon, there are others on here that were on the same trip as i was,and i saw one event one way and they now believe ( after leaving SD on their own, they were not kicked out from what i understand ) that it was meant in a hole different way, so you see ,as others have said , just like a form or a story all things even when seen at the same time may send each person away with a different opinion of the events and what was meant by each persons actions,

[Fred Sanford]

All I have to say about shaolin-do is that it is a very nice style of karate. I'm impressed, really I am.

[shen ku]

JP did you find anything on the nashville school

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
All I have to say about shaolin-do is that it is a very nice style of karate. I'm impressed, really I am.

Thanks Fred. I appreciate any compliment coming from you.

SK, not yet man. I've been swamped, but I'll get you something this week.

[Radhnoti]

I think that Dr. Davies' e-mail was very supportive of the idea that shaolin-do should be classified as kuntao...

Of course that's been a pet theory of mine, and I may be biased.

From a Willem De Thouars website:

"Kun Tao goes back to ancient China, so it is accurately a Chinese art, but both Chinese and indigenous people in Southeast Asia have practiced and adopted it as their own. And the old men who were trained in what they see as the "pure art" have seen it sanitized and changed; it literally doesn't exist in its original state in China anymore."

This is EXACTLY the attitude that's been passed down (in my opinion) in Shaolin-do. "We have the REAL stuff, no pointless but pretty junk!"
It's not a shaolin-do specific attitude, it's common in kuntao.

Also, to be fair, not all SD teachers seem to have inherited this attitude of superiority, but I've heard enough of them talk to know that MANY have.

Again, just my opinion...backed by a few years experience and research. :eek: :D

[serene_dragon]

SK
"A man looking for trouble is not much of a problem for someone who is ready for him"
If you know where you heard this statement then you know who I am. Give me a call when you read this

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by serene_dragon
Shen Ku

You went to China with GM Sin The'. Did you vistit any temples or Shaolin schools while you was there?

If you did there might be a few people reading this thread who are interested in knowing how the masters in the temples treated Grandmaster Sin The'. If they showed him respect as a Grandmaster or if they treated him like just another martial artist visiting the temples.


Out of curiosity, I went back and watched the meeting between Master Sin and the Head Abbot when the marker was placed. While most of the speaking was done by the guy from Chinese Tourism, there was a speech given by the head disiple written by the Abbot. It spoke of Shaolin being the birthplace of MA, how they wanted it to spread all over the world, yada yada yada...... The group and the monks exchanged a gift, Master Sin said a few words and that was it.

A couple of observations that I made were:

1. A large group was assembled to meet with and celebrate the placing of the marker (yes, paid for by the group).
2. The head Abbot, obviously not in the best of health due to Parkinson's (or it appeared to be that) was there along with a few of the senior monks.

So what comes to mind is this..... Master Sin and the "style" he promotes seemed not to pi$$ off those at the temple. He was treated with respect and was greeted by the ailing Head Abbot. I wonder if that is standard practice when other tourist show up? Sure, you could say that we "rented" a photo op with the HA but due to his health.....I am not sure.

It has also been said that the monks smiled while laughing under their breath at the demo our group did. That really wouldn't suprise me given the fact that it was made up of those that could afford the trip (ie. actually worked for a living and weren't professional MA's). What they didn't do is boo them off the floor for the so-so performance or the *******ization of CMA...one could argue respect or good manners.

So, "we" have visited the authority on Shaolin MA, didn't get shot at or arrested for what we did, what we claim or who we were, and are still going strong today.

I can live with that.......

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Out of curiosity, I went back and watched the meeting between Master Sin and the Head Abbot when the marker was placed. While most of the speaking was done by the guy from Chinese Tourism, there was a speech given by the head disiple written by the Abbot. It spoke of Shaolin being the birthplace of MA, how they wanted it to spread all over the world, yada yada yada...... The group and the monks exchanged a gift, Master Sin said a few words and that was it.

Yep... saw that video too. Saw the same things.



Originally posted by Golden Tiger

A couple of observations that I made were:

1. A large group was assembled to meet with and celebrate the placing of the marker (yes, paid for by the group).
2. The head Abbot, obviously not in the best of health due to Parkinson's (or it appeared to be that) was there along with a few of the senior monks.


1 -- Yep.
2 -- Yep.


Originally posted by Golden Tiger

So what comes to mind is this..... Master Sin and the "style" he promotes seemed not to pi$$ off those at the temple. He was treated with respect and was greeted by the ailing Head Abbot. I wonder if that is standard practice when other tourist show up? Sure, you could say that we "rented" a photo op with the HA but due to his health.....I am not sure.


Of course he was treated with respect. Most anybody is treated with respect when you drop $$$$ on a place like that. We had a Q&A session & photo op in 2001 with YongXin. Close to 90 Westerners coming in... dropping lots of $$$$ not once, but often. You get a little better than the normal Joe stopping in by the temple.


Originally posted by Golden Tiger

It has also been said that the monks smiled while laughing under their breath at the demo our group did. That really wouldn't suprise me given the fact that it was made up of those that could afford the trip (ie. actually worked for a living and weren't professional MA's). What they didn't do is boo them off the floor for the so-so performance or the *******ization of CMA...one could argue respect or good manners.


Yep... I would guess that they appreciated the effort put in by anybody to study MA, but good manners does go a long way in this world.


Originally posted by Golden Tiger

So, "we" have visited the authority on Shaolin MA, didn't get shot at or arrested for what we did, what we claim or who we were, and are still going strong today.

I can live with that.......

Well... there have been visits made to Shaolin, to Dengfeng, to Xiamen, to Chen Village, to Xian, to Wudang, etc... to be sure. Well documented & covered. There has been lots of speeches by gov't & local officials on how happy they were Master Sin & the groups were there. There have been lots of photo ops with all sorts of people at these locations, even coverage on Chinese National TV. I'm sure in the big picture the money brought in by Master Sin wouldn't be missed, but why **** off a continued source of income. They give a little face to Master Sin & everybody is happy. It just speaks of good manners. It also good economic practices on their parts.

I can live with that too...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shen ku
JP did you find anything on the nashville school

Here's what was sent to me from a friend who had saved the infromation from the old SDA site. It should still be current:

Nashville Shaolin-do

Donelson-Hermitage YMCA
3001 Lebanon Road
Nashville, TN 37214
(615) 889-2632

Head Instructor: Ernest McClain (2nd Degree Black Belt)
Assistant Instructors: Manuel J. Roman (1st Degree Black Belt), Bob Threadgill (1st Degree Black Belt), Russ Cameron (1st Degree Black Belt)

Classes held Tuesday & Thursday nights
Children - 6:15 to 7:30 pm
Adults - 7:30 to 8:30 pm

[wdl]

I'm pretty sure that's the right phone number, but I don't think he's at the Y out there anymore. I could however be wrong. I'm almost positive he's changed locations in the past year. For alittle while I don't think he had a location.

-Will

[shen ku]

JP thanks alot, its good to talk with others within SD and to know that others feel the same about their training again thanks

[MonkeySlap Too]

All of this is fine and good, but how do you explain how devoid of actual CMA usage Shaolin-Do is? Or how they do millions of 'styles' yet can't get the mechanics correct for any of them? Or the fact they do one-step sparring, fight like Karate guys, move like Karate guys, but do 'Chinese' forms.

It's okay to feel 'good' about yourselves and others who are 'in' the SD group. But it in no way validates SD as a CMA.

I'm sure Jim Jones's followers were sure they were just misunderstood by those pesky outsiders.

Of course, no one would really care if Sin The' didn't make such outrageous claims.

[themeecer]

All of this is fine and good, but how do you explain how devoid of actual CMA usage Shaolin-Do is? Or how they do millions of 'styles' yet can't get the mechanics correct for any of them? Or the fact they do one-step sparring, fight like Karate guys, move like Karate guys, but do 'Chinese' forms.

You know what .. I started a post detailing what I thought about your opinion and gave up on it. Apparently you find meaning in your life by belittling others and their art. If that makes you feel good, then wonderful. Thank you for the compliment of me doing millions of styles .. I'm really flattered. Kind of creeped out as well .... not sure how you found my school and was able to spy on my classes without me noticing you. Had you paid attention you would see that I personally don't focus on "millions" of styles, I focus on 2 and am incorporating a third one. I know what I study and teach. I have compared what I do to old clips of masters (with your oh so coveted printed lineage) and found it exactly the way I was taught and teach as well. I must have stumbled onto the mechanics somehow because contrary to what you say my mechanics have been tested and proved to be more than adequate. Bah … not a big fan of this web fu crap. Carry on.

Edit: And right now I am much more ticked at the pizza line coward video I saw, than with you SD detractors.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hey, sorry your feelings are hurt. I'm not out to 'belittle' anybody. I'm just calling it as I see it. I've 'tasted' SD first hand. It's not CMA. It's not even very good. Just my opinion, but hey, it's an educated one. There hasn't been one good defense of Sin The's claims, or an example of 'good' SD (even that clip of Sin looked exactly like the Atlanta folks everyone in SD turned on.)

Remember, idiot testing does not count when validating an art.

I wouldn't really care, but you guys are lieing the public claiming these 'styles' when in fact you do Karate. Heck, if you called in 'Syncretic Indonesian Karate-Kun Tao' I wouldn't care. But calling it the 'true' Shaolin, and claiming Xing-yi, etc.etc. when honestly, the Xing-yi is hilarious, you've got to question what you are doing. If not in content, at least in ethics.

[Brad]

Doing something poorly doesn't automatically make it "karate".

[Golden Tiger]

Or how they do millions of 'styles' yet can't get the mechanics correct for any of them?

I would be more than happy to discuss the mechanics used in any of the styles that SD teaches. All you have to do is ask.



Or the fact they do one-step sparring, fight like Karate guys, move like Karate guys, but do 'Chinese' forms.

I have seen many forms done by both and while we don't have the flowery, dance-like movents of wushu, we certianly don't move like the karateka either.




Of course, no one would really care if Sin The' didn't make such outrageous claims.

While I haven't been able to keep up with his schedule lately, I do know that he will be in Ky. in the month of March. MS duex, you are invited to come down and ask him about these claims person to person. Heck, I'll even put you up at my house. I have the extra room.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'd be happy too, although I am in busy season during March. Anything available in late fall? Can you cover air-fare as well? I'm not that interested to spend the money myself, as it seems more for your edification than mine. I'm a gracious guest, and really do get on well people, even those I disagree with.

Or - I am hosting "Silat-A-Palooza" a get together for West Javanese martial arts in San Jose this November. PM me your e-mail, I'll send details.

Or - I'll be at a ACSCA Combat Shuai Chiao tournament in Chicago with a team of fighters. These are friendly competitions, usually devoid of the chest-beating you'll see at some fights. I can even arrange crash-space in Chicago. You'll get to meet some great CMA folks, and if you like take part in informal free-fighting sessions. No tropihies, no awards, just practice against people from around the country. All school welcome.

As far as the mechanics go - where do I start? Everything looks the same in SD. Everything looks like Karate mechanics. The Xing Yi - OMG, what is it? Maybe you could help me understand what the SD guys are doing there... cause it's unlike anything I've ever seen, and the 'old' argument doesn't hold water as a.) I've met guys from the villiages Xing-Yi evolved from and b.) It's just wrong, man for ANY school of Xing Yi.

BRAD: No, I'm just commenting that their movements look like Karate, one-step sparring and all. I find the 'no flowery motions' rationale very funny, as it reinforces my position.

[themeecer]

The Xing Yi - OMG, what is it? Maybe you could help me understand what the SD guys are doing there... cause it's unlike anything I've ever seen, and the 'old' argument doesn't hold water as a.) I've met guys from the villiages Xing-Yi evolved from and b.) It's just wrong, man for ANY school of Xing Yi.

What Hsing I have you seen? I haven't seen any online clips of a SD practioner doing it. I know what mine looks like, and besides the dragon, mine looks like what I would consider authentic hsing I. (My dragon is improving as my body heals)

[Fu-Pow]

What Hsing I have you seen? I haven't seen any online clips of a SD practioner doing it. I know what mine looks like, and besides the dragon, mine looks like what I would consider authentic hsing I. (My dragon is improving as my body heals)

Actually, Shaolin Center used to have a "Hsing-Yi" video up.

Unfortunately, they took down all their neat-o vids. They do have a bang up list of new DVDs available.....with some trailers available!

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/videos.html

Have fun kids!

Also, I came across the lineage and I noticed that they've dropped the hairy guy out of the lineage. In addition, a "grandmaster" and "master" are now higher in rank than a "sifu." Who'd a thunk it?

http://www.shaolincenter.com/lineage.html

[MonkeySlap Too]

Meecer, this is the problem with you guys - what you think it should look like is not relevant. If I said my BJJ looks pretty good I'll get laughed out of town by the BJJers, as I'm only imitating it. If you don't what something is in the first place, it's hard to be a competant judge of it. Peer review, my friend.

Now admittedly there is a wide variety of Xing Yi out there, some more sophisticated than others - but one thing every Xing-Yi guy I know agrees on - what was on that Atlanta site ain't Xing-Yi.

I've met some SD guys - from first hand experience I can tell you - it ain't Xing-Yi. Go post some files over at Empty Flower - don't tell them it's SD. See what happens.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Look,
I'm also a teacher of KTS DeThouras. It's a hodge podge art. I wrestled with some of things stated about the source material, but it worked, so I did not care. However, when encountering some pretty sophisticated Xing-Yi players - they could see the links to thier art that I did not see. But here is the catch WD just says 'hey this is what I practice.' He NEVER claims to be doing THE original version/ Shaolin version of anything. Just what he does. So if it's a hodge podge of stuff, no one really cares.

But you guys say 'look - this IS Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Preying Mantis, etc... and it just isn't.

Sorry.

[themeecer]

We are no longer affiliated with the Atlanta school. So I can not vouch for what they are teaching. I wish I could have seen that hsing I clip before it was removed.


But you guys say 'look - this IS Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Preying Mantis, etc... and it just isn't.
Mine is. Period.(At least my Pa Qua and Hsing I is. I'm not a fan of preying mantis.)


Sorry.
No you're not. You people live for this stuff.

[lxtruong]

For some reason I find that martial artists are overall some of the nosiest bunch I've ever seen. Why should anyone care anything about anyone else's style? Heck, I find that even at the dojo everyone is always up in everyone's business. Head down and keep on punching and kicking, that's my policy.

On a totally unrelated note, I just learned Dragon Hsing-Ie last thursday and it pwns me. I suck.

[Golden Tiger]

MS2,

I can only say that along with the things I was taught, I was(am) able to generate power, root myself, absorb and deflect (some) energy and do other things asscoiated with the styles I have been shown. Correct or not, it has worked well for me over the past 30 years.

As for your invitation, thanks for the offer. I do get out to the left coast ocassionally also to Chicago so I might try to take you up on your offer. I'll pm you if it looks like a go. As for competing, I gave that up many years ago but a friendly exchange of information would be nice.


Fu-Pow:

Thanks for the link. I rarely go to that site since there was a parting of the ways a while back. It is interesting that that school decided to remove Su Kong from the lineage. It is also interesting that that school was the one that wanted to change uniforms to the frog button ones. Perhaps the pressure to "fit in" as a CMA is guiding their discissions...who know?

[Jhapa]

dammn, when will this die.................

from what i have seen, SD ba gua(or pa kua) is not even good, poor form, it's all rushed, well what i have seen here in Texas. my schools head instructor's teacher is taught buy elder master leonard, so what he is taught is trickled down to us. the forms that are taught are rushed, you learn it so you can get to the next level. the classes are only an hour long and for the 1st 15 minutes we are doing warm ups and only work on forms for about 20 to 30 minutes. also, why is all instructors called sifu/shifu, i thought only the head instructor is supposed to be called sifu.

[MonkeySlap Too]

GT - my active competition days are over too... but this is a 'friendly' environment to try new stuff out on resisting opponents..

But if your ever out NorthLeft, give me a PM. If I'm around, Beer is on me. I tried to hook up with JP once, but the one weekend he picked was my High school reunion - which after going, I think I would have rather hung out with JP.


Real question: What is considered the 'core' training in SD? What are the strategy assumptions around it?

[MonkeySlap Too]

We are no longer affiliated with the Atlanta school. So I can not vouch for what they are teaching. I wish I could have seen that hsing I clip before it was removed.

REPLY: You'll find it looks exactly like all the other SD I've seen, including Sin The's.

Mine is. Period.(At least my Pa Qua and Hsing I is. I'm not a fan of preying mantis.)

REPLY: So you've learned it somewhere else?

No you're not. You people live for this stuff.

REPLY: "you people" - funny. Nope. Just stating the obvious. I've stopped caring a long time ago. And you'll note except for a few obvious frauds (SD, OYD/CMD) and an occasional pr!ck, I pretty much refrain from criticizing anyone. And I'm not criticizisng SD, I'm just reflecting on what it is versus what they say it is. Heck if you go back far enough, I was probably the guy that pointed out how the gi's don't autmatically disqualify it from being CMA or IMA. I'm not out to persecute anybody - I'm just holding thier toes to the fire a little when I think something is dishonest. Sorry. Really, I am.

[Judge Pen]

I tried to hook up with JP once, but the one weekend he picked was my High school reunion - which after going, I think I would have rather hung out with JP.


Real question: What is considered the 'core' training in SD? What are the strategy assumptions around it?

My gf at the time ended up hanging with me in San Fran and, truth be told, I'd would of rather hung out with you even though I was in no physical condition to dispel any of your ideas of SD. Still can't, but I'm working on it (knee is still healing and all). As for core training, I've said it before, it's the short forms. We spend the longest time on them and they introduce the majority of techniques that are found, with variations, in later forms. As for the "one-step" sparring and sparring techniques, I've always considered these to be drills to isolate techniques from forms: Nothing more. Drilling isn't the exclusive purview of karate, imo.

Jhapa, you are 100% correct. Most forms are rushed and taught sloppily. It's a problem that most SD (my own school included at times) can fall into. GT learned at a different time when they didn't learn as much material and didn't rush through it, so his opinion always has my ear (even the things we don't always see eye to eye on).

And Meece, the Hsing-I clip was of Master Reid. It was linkage. It was the same form as I know, move for move, but I could quibble about the power generation in that clip. But, then again, Master Reid is a very large man and very quick for his size. I have no doubt he could wipe the floor with me.

[Judge Pen]

REPLY: "you people" - funny. Nope. Just stating the obvious. I've stopped caring a long time ago. And you'll note except for a few obvious frauds (SD, OYD/CMD) and an occasional pr!ck, I pretty much refrain from criticizing anyone. And I'm not criticizisng SD, I'm just reflecting on what it is versus what they say it is. Heck if you go back far enough, I was probably the guy that pointed out how the gi's don't autmatically disqualify it from being CMA or IMA. I'm not out to persecute anybody - I'm just holding thier toes to the fire a little when I think something is dishonest. Sorry. Really, I am.

Yep, you were one of the few here to not fuss about that point with SD as well as note that the story about the Indonesian prosecution could be plausible. And while I could criticize much of Atlanta's forms, there were an equal number that I could not criticize (some of the criticisms were as much or more about the peopel performing them than the way the material was passed down). . . . So I really can't say much to your criticisms. I can share my techniques with you if we ever meet up (with a disclaimer as to what techniques I can't do correctly anyway) and see what your opinions are. If you think it's junk CMA/IMA/JMA then so be it. I'm confident that I can make it work for me against the majority of people out there, but I have no delusions of fighting a MA who trains to fight competitively. I just don't train with that intensity.

One day, I'd love to have some friendly sparring with your group though. That would be fun.

[Fu-Pow]

Look,
But here is the catch WD just says 'hey this is what I practice.' He NEVER claims to be doing THE original version/ Shaolin version of anything. Just what he does. So if it's a hodge podge of stuff, no one really cares.

But you guys say 'look - this IS Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Preying Mantis, etc... and it just isn't.

Sorry.

That's the crux of the whole matter.

[Golden Tiger]

MS2,

I would have to echo what JP said about our core training. The short forms. They train you in power, mechanics, speed and stances. Those, in my humble opinion, are the core of any MA. In SD, thats why they are drilled, drilled and drilled some more. Once you have a good understanding on those principles, they can be applied to whatever else you may learn.

As for SD of today vs. the SinThe' Karate Club of yesterday (when I got most of my training), things are very different. Having been around for a longggggg time, I have seen a lot of changes take place. Some good, some bad. I have to agree with who ever said that now things are done too quick and sloppy. Forms are taught in a day now that used to be spread out over weeks, months and years. For what ever reasons (even I have my suspicions) of late there has been a push to teach out as many forms as can be taught and with that, the level of understanding has gone down hill. But, its not my schools, style, system so I have little control over that. Hopefully what will happen is that it will be taught, a few will pick some that interest them the most and in time, they will pick it apart and become good at it. I have my favorites and of those, I feel very confident of. There are also some that I have learned that I could care less about.

So, pick on SD all you want. Heck, thats the only reason I read this board most of the time.

[Judge Pen]

Eventually I intend to stop learning new material and pick 10 or so empty hand forms (and a few weapon forms for fun) to focus on. My first teacher was a 4th when he passed away and it's a goal of mine to attain that rank before I stop learning new forms.

GT, I only wish I was around when you all did all the drilling and unique excercises for months prior to learning a new form.

[MasterKiller]

Eventually I intend to stop learning new material and pick 10 or so empty hand forms (and a few weapon forms for fun) to focus on.
I love only having 10 hand sets. I practice the same 10 every work out, and then move on to drilling and sparring. I quit learning new sets about 4 years ago. I know those 10 sets backwards and forwards. I could do them in my sleep. Consequently, I can use the applications when I spar.

[Golden Tiger]

Back then (and not to get into the "In my day" mode) there wasn't that much out there so there was no hurry to finish one so you could learn the next. Master Sin was very good at teaching the form and the background and VERY good at making us do it over and over and over. Mainly, we were just there to get in shape, learn to fight and weren't that interested in new stuff. When it came along, it was a bonus. Interestingly, a guy told me once that there were 3 people that he respected when it came to sparring out of a roomfull or 20 or so. He named X,Y,Z (I made the cut yiipppeeee). Of the 3, all had been around back in the old days but only one was upper rank. The other two had come and gone and come back a few times over. He went on to say that although they had never injured him, when they hit or kicked, it was solid. When they grabbed him, he was got. If he tried to move them, they were rooted. I wish he had said it to the whole class. Perhaps then it would have elicited a change in the focus. Perhaps not. My advice.....even if you are learning a crap art (SD excluded), focus on the basics. A strong house has to have a stronger foundation.

Somewhere along the line, the attitudes of the students changed. Not so much those under Master Sin at his school but of those else where. Perhaps it was a case of the teachers needing to provide quantity over quality (when and who should teach has been discussed before). Its funny. Back then, some whined about never learning something new and now they whine about learning too much. I think mainly people just like to whine.

[Judge Pen]

I love only having 10 hand sets. I practice the same 10 every work out, and then move on to drilling and sparring. I quit learning new sets about 4 years ago. I know those 10 sets backwards and forwards. I could do them in my sleep. Consequently, I can use the applications when I spar.

There are a few forms that I am this way on now, but it's only a very small percertage of the forms that I know.

GT, yeah, I guess I do whine about learning too many forms, but it's because I'm afraid that I'm too sloppy with them because I don't have time to perfect all of them.

[Brad]

Back to the xingyi form for a second...

If I remember correctly, it's a slightly modified legit xingyi form itself but done in a very "un-xingyi" like manner. I think, externally, it's nearly identical to the linking form from "Li Tianji's Skill of Xingyiquan" book (Li Tianji is considered the father of standardized taiji quan, which I think I might have mentioned earlier in this thread). It did give me the feel of how xingyi would be done if a longtime McDojo karate or Tae Kwon Do person learned the film from video. And having met people who did this and trained in a place that did this before, I DO have something to compare it too :D I did like it better than all the other clips on the page in that he was one of the few who I thought, "If he hit me it would probably hurt" and he had some quickness in his form to go along with his strength. With him being a former pro football player though, I'd be shocked if he looked like the others. It takes a lot of athleticism and a strong work ethic to reach that level :)

A lot of the SD forms that I've seen are perfectly legitimate CMA forms underneath, but often it looks like it's been modified just enough with extra(or missing) movement to make it difficult to spot unless you're familiar with the original form.

I pretty sure all this has been said before (over and over and over), but I really don't have anything more interesting to do at the moment :D

I'd really like to see video of what some consider the "core" forms done by "old timers" that you guys basically agree are high quality. Don't you guys ever get frustrated that all people see online are the lesser quality schools? At least that's the vibe I seem to get.

[wdl]

I did like it better than all the other clips on the page in that he was one of the few who I thought, "If he hit me it would probably hurt" and he had some quickness in his form to go along with his strength. With him being a former pro football player though, I'd be shocked if he looked like the others. It takes a lot of athleticism and a strong work ethic to reach that level :)


I've fought with him as ring center, and yeah, he's a big guy. I'm not huge, but I'm not a little guy either, I'm 6'1 200, and he made me feel little when I squared off to fight. I've also seen him demo several times and I really think he was almost walking through the form in that clip. He can get way more intense than what he is in that clip.

Alot of the Atlanta videos I've got mixed feelings about, especially videos I've got the material from, but that's neither here nor there and none of my business really. Maybe they took the videos after class and were all tired or something, who knows.

-Will

[Fu-Pow]

A word about forms and styles....

Coming from a style (Choy Lay Fut) that has many, many forms (I think my current personal count is around 30 hand and weapons sets. ) I don't think there is as big of an issue with knowing too many forms. As long as they overlap and work together.

The big problem I see with Shaolin-Do (and I've probably said it before!) is that they are learning a curriculum not just of many forms, but many forms from different styles.

Hua Chuan, Xing Yi, Preying Mantis, Tai Chi Chuan, Tiger and Crane, etc.

All of these styles train different Jins, Attitudes, Strategies. How can you learn them all and apply them effectively?

Just to give you an idea. My first school taught Hung Ga (a predominantly short fist style) and Choy Lay Fut (a predominantly long fist style).

The result: Hung Ga that is too big and Choy Lay Fut that is too small.

And that's just with two closely related Southern Chinese styles!

When you are doing a curriculum that is a huge compendium of different styles from all over China what do you end up with?

In kung fu circles we call schools like Shaolin-Do "Chop Suey." Just like the Chinese dish of the same name..... it is composed of bits and pieces of different stuff and the end result doesn't taste all that good.

Kung fu is about mastery of form but also about the deeper underlying Jin (ie. body mechanic) that supports the form. Also, the attitude and strategy of the style.

When you are learning many different styles in a short amount of time how can you develop the correct Jin and Attitude to support the form? How can you apply the moves effectively in free sparring without the correct Jin or Attitude?

Answer: you can't.

And that is where I see the whole "concept" of Shaolin-Do failing miserably.

[Judge Pen]

It's a good argument Fu Pow. It is certainly a danger in learning pieces of more than one style. However, several schools (for right or wrong; for good or bad) teach conflicting styles. Most schools have a Tai Chi curiculim no matter what the underlying style is: CLF, long fist, hung gar, mantis etc.). Hsing-Ie and Pa Kua are traditionally taught together even though they are very different, albeit complimentary, styles. Now not all of these schools are bad. Not all of them are good either.

[MasterKiller]

Most schools have a Tai Chi curiculim no matter what the underlying style is: CLF, long fist, hung gar, mantis etc.). Most schools don't integrate the Taiji into the Kung Fu. It's usually two separate programs. In fact, I don't know any that teach them together. I mean, I took math classes in college, but they weren't mixed into my Lit classes.


Hsing-Ie and Pa Kua are traditionally taught together Says who?