Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[bodhi warrior]

What GM Sin is teaching is a four road leopard system and it also has some speed and breathing training, but I haven't seen that part yet. The style emphasizes pressure point striking using the leopard fist, pheonix eye, and double phoenix eye in the first 2 forms, I don't know about the other 2.
I seen that article also, on the mel gar leopard style. There just isn't that much info on leopard style that I know of. If any info can be added it would be appreciated.

[Judge Pen]

What GM Sin is teaching is a four road leopard system and it also has some speed and breathing training, but I haven't seen that part yet. The style emphasizes pressure point striking using the leopard fist, pheonix eye, and double phoenix eye in the first 2 forms, I don't know about the other 2.
I seen that article also, on the mel gar leopard style. There just isn't that much info on leopard style that I know of. If any info can be added it would be appreciated.

I've been through part of the training for speed/power but not the breathing.

[Baqualin]

Just curious, I was reading an article about leopard style in a mag last month. Is it true that there are very few people that know or practice leopard style because its a "dying" art? If you think about it there aren't many people you see that practice just leopard kung fu. In my training I learned one leopard form and that was for my 1st level brown sash. Thats the only leopard form I learned. Is their any web sites out their that anyone knows of that goes into detail about leopard style kung fu?

I have looked everywhere Mark and there's really nothing out there. GMS taught us the 4 roads of the Golden Leopard to develop the speed and strength for Meteor Fist.

[mkriii]

I seen that article also, on the mel gar leopard style. There just isn't that much info on leopard style that I know of. If any info can be added it would be appreciated.

Yeah, thats the article I was referring to withoutout mentioning other m.a. magazines......lol. :D I wonder why leopard style is so rare to find? There are so many different target areas that one could use the leopard paw strike to.....you would think that leopard style would be more common than it is. If you think about it, it has charactoristics (sp?) of several different animal styles in my opinion........power of the tiger, speed of the snake, and agile like the crane. Its an interesting animal for sure, just wish there was more info on it.

[mkriii]

Baqualin.....see I am capeable of having a civilized conversation about martial arts. :D

I just had back surgery, had to have my L3 & L4 vertibrae fused because of a herniated disk. I guess it kinda humbled me so to speak..........lol. Doctor said I'll be back in action in about 6 to 7 months (I'll be about 80% healed). And be as good as new or better in 8 months to a year (100%). I feel so much better already and it's only been 3 1/2 weeks since surgery. Do you know of any light chi gung exercises that might could help with the healing proccess for my spine/vertibrae that I could maybe do?

[brucereiter]

Baqualin.....see I am capeable of having a civilized conversation about martial arts. :D

I just had back surgery, had to have my L3 & L4 vertibrae fused because of a herniated disk. I guess it kinda humbled me so to speak..........lol. Doctor said I'll be back in action in about 6 to 7 months (I'll be about 80% healed). And be as good as new or better in 8 months to a year (100%). I feel so much better already and it's only been 3 1/2 weeks since surgery. Do you know of any light chi gung exercises that might could help with the healing proccess for my spine/vertibrae that I could maybe do?
live/dead animal chi kung would likely be good for your back maybe you could go train with bq for a while. i had minor back problems a few years ago and that practice (and time) totally healed my problems.

[tattooedmonk]

live/dean animal chi kung would likely be good for your back maybe you could go train with bq for a while. i had minor back problems a few years ago and that practice (and time) totally healed my problems. Does anyone else see the irony here? Well Mark I would say that Bruce is correct . Hua To's five animal frolics would be the way to go with this type of problem. Dr.Jerry Allan Johnson has some great books on Medical Qi Gong as well. They are about $65. but well worth it.

[mkriii]

Does anyone else see the irony here? Well Mark I would say that Bruce is correct . Hua To's five animal frolics would be the way to go with this type of problem. Dr.Jerry Allan Johnson has some great books on Medical Qi Gong as well. They are about $65. but well worth it.


What irony are you talking about? Me training with Baqualin? LOL.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, thats the article I was referring to withoutout mentioning other m.a. magazines......lol. :D I wonder why leopard style is so rare to find? There are so many different target areas that one could use the leopard paw strike to.....you would think that leopard style would be more common than it is. If you think about it, it has charactoristics (sp?) of several different animal styles in my opinion........power of the tiger, speed of the snake, and agile like the crane. Its an interesting animal for sure, just wish there was more info on it.

I think Lepoard techniques have been subsumed in other styles such as Choy Li Fut. Depending on the lineage, they utilize several leopard paw strikes and techniques. But that's not the same as leopard style which has its own flow footwork etc.

I would also work on "breath before birth" mediation for your low back and amp up your tai chi practice. lumbar fusions are a bear to get over (so I've been told) so take it slow and follow your neurosurgeon's advice. Any acupunture professionals in your area?

Also, have you asked your teachers? I'm sure Master Ng would have good advice for you.

[mkriii]

Actually GM John Ng does do Acupuncture. I totally forgot about that, thanks for reminding me. He did some accupuncture on Mark Burgher when he had a case of gout in his foot. He lives three hours away though but might be worth the drive. Master Dufresne isn't in the country right now. He is in Europe on business I believe but he live in Boston now anyways so I only see/train with him 3 or 4 times a year. I've been trying to call him but have got no answer, guess it is where he is in Europe. He was in Thailand about 2 months ago on business.

[Judge Pen]

No problem. I've been through rehab on the knee, so I know how frustrating it is to be injured and to try to come back.

BTW, the "irony" is you asking a bunch of SD people for advice on training to help with your low back recovery. :D

[mkriii]

I stated about two months ago I was turning over a new leaf. Besides thats about all thats on this forum is SD people......LOL. If there is something worth while to learn I'll learn it. I don't care who teaches it. My only thing that I have/had against SD is that I don't think a lot of the stuff is practical and or real chinese kung fu. Some stuff I do like. Remember, I used to take SD (a long time ago). But I'm not going to start another debate on whose style is beter. :D

[bawang]

why are there so many forms in shaolin do? do u guys have the same forms from song mountain shaolin temeple?

[Judge Pen]

why are there so many forms in shaolin do? do u guys have the same forms from song mountain shaolin temeple?

In a nutshell....According to our lineage, our forms came from one resident of the Fujian temple that learned several systems and became the martial head of the temple. ("Su Kong Tai Djian) These forms don't seem to be the standard forms traditionally taught at the songshan temple now. But (and reading this thread would find some answers and many more questions) that lineage is not verified by any other outside source so take it for whatever you want.

What is "verified" is that two Chinese men from Indonesia learned a system of martial arts and taught it to some Americans in Lexington Kentucky. At some point that system was called shaolin do. According to those gentlemen their teacher (Ie Chang Ming) learned from Su Kong. There were also other "colleagues" that specialized in other systems (such as the 8 drunken immortals and the Tai Pang systems). They learned from Ie and these other teachers. There have been some individuals outside of SD that reference Ie Chang Ming and some of the colleagues, but nothing very solid.

In total, it is a patchwork type system that teaches forms from multiple styles. Some of the students are very good and some are not (like many styles). The material has depth and applicability, but that is not always emphasized (again depending on the teacher).

If you want more detail, read this thread. I was just trying to "hit the high points" in this post. For all I know, you just want to stir up the debate again, but I'm a bit bored this afternoon, so I'll bite. :)

[Baqualin]

What irony are you talking about? Me training with Baqualin? LOL.

First thing to do is what your Doctor says....let it heel.....if your interested get in touch.....I work a lot with people who have medical problems......I teach accordingly.....I have (had) a very bad back also.....Tai Chi & Ba qua has heeled me......come by sometime and check out the class on Sat. 10am to 12 am...you might be surprised....I'm more interested in making you healther than making someone a bad a$$.
BQ

[Old Noob]

In a nutshell....According to our lineage, our forms came from one resident of the Fujian temple that learned several systems and became the martial head of the temple. ("Su Kong Tai Djian) These forms don't seem to be the standard forms traditionally taught at the songshan temple now. But (and reading this thread would find some answers and many more questions) that lineage is not verified by any other outside source so take it for whatever you want.

What is "verified" is that two Chinese men from Indonesia learned a system of martial arts and taught it to some Americans in Lexington Kentucky. At some point that system was called shaolin do. According to those gentlemen their teacher (Ie Chang Ming) learned from Su Kong. There were also other "colleagues" that specialized in other systems (such as the 8 drunken immortals and the Tai Pang systems). They learned from Ie and these other teachers. There have been some individuals outside of SD that reference Ie Chang Ming and some of the colleagues, but nothing very solid.

In total, it is a patchwork type system that teaches forms from multiple styles. Some of the students are very good and some are not (like many styles). The material has depth and applicability, but that is not always emphasized (again depending on the teacher).

If you want more detail, read this thread. I was just trying to "hit the high points" in this post. For all I know, you just want to stir up the debate again, but I'm a bit bored this afternoon, so I'll bite. :)

You've been quiet for a bit. Good to see you back dispensing the moderation.

r,
ON

[Judge Pen]

You've been quiet for a bit. Good to see you back dispensing the moderation.

r,
ON

I've been busy. I'm probably going to try more jury trials this year then I have in 8 prior years of practice. But I gotta find time to keep up with this thread!

[Old Noob]

Yeah, you can't quit now. You have to support this thing that's been around for five years now.

Gotta love the jury trials; tons of work to have them get hooked on the most random, seemingly inconsequential issue and decide the whole thing based on that. I miss it so.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, you can't quit now. You have to support this thing that's been around for five years now.

Gotta love the jury trials; tons of work to have them get hooked on the most random, seemingly inconsequential issue and decide the whole thing based on that. I miss it so.

Yeah, I tell clients if I knew what the jury would do, then I'd quit practicing law and go to vegas and make some real money. But they're fun because you get to stand up and act like Denny Crane for a day.

[kwaichang]

Hey guys I found out all lawyers have MAD COW disease next thing you know they will all get caught with their pants down. And they cant keep a secret right JUDGE KC:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah, thats the article I was referring to withoutout mentioning other m.a. magazines......lol. :D I wonder why leopard style is so rare to find? There are so many different target areas that one could use the leopard paw strike to.....you would think that leopard style would be more common than it is. If you think about it, it has charactoristics (sp?) of several different animal styles in my opinion........power of the tiger, speed of the snake, and agile like the crane. Its an interesting animal for sure, just wish there was more info on it.

As far as I know, the leopard "style" has almost always been part and parcel of the 5 animals form of traditional CMA, but is almost entirely extinct outside of that context except from "fringe" styles. CLF uses the leopard paw a lot, if I'm not mistaken. And, I think they have leopard forms. I bet Sean Stoneheart would be the guy to ask about that.

SD's leopard is unique. I've never seen anything quite as "boring" that was so useful....LOL.....:p They are rather cut and dry forms that require a lot of stability on one leg, and very repititious and difficult combinations that basically have a 1:1 correlation between forms and sparring, in a way. If GM Sin is credited with making them up, he's a pretty smart guy, and it boasts of his MA knowledge, I think. And, if they're real, they're really intelligent. But don't expect an exciting demo, at least from the 2 forms I've seen.;):D

I'm really not very great at the second one. But the first one has some very natural rhythms to it, and the motions are the motions of good, natural stand-up and put-down. I think that's why it's so useful.

[sean_stonehart]

Thank Wook, but I'm just "a CLF guy". There are several more folks on the board that I'd defer to when it comes to CLF in a quick heartbeat.

I know somethings, have been exposed to others, but there's at least 1 guy I can think of that posts here that's been practicing CLF at least as long if not longer than I've been around.

I'll answer what I can & take corrections on what I misstate & listen to what I don't know when it comes to CLF. :)

[mkriii]

First thing to do is what your Doctor says....let it heel.....if your interested get in touch.....I work a lot with people who have medical problems......I teach accordingly.....I have (had) a very bad back also.....Tai Chi & Ba qua has heeled me......come by sometime and check out the class on Sat. 10am to 12 am...you might be surprised....I'm more interested in making you healther than making someone a bad a$$.
BQ

As ironic as it may seem I may come by when my back is a little bit better to check it out and see what you can do to help my back.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Tai Chi and I CHin CHing have really helped my back. I started practicing the Yang form on my hour lunch breaks at work by driving to a nearby park. All the tension in my back seems to seep right back out.

I think I have a pinched nerve or something that acts up after really heavy exercise. It's in my lower left back. When it's really bad (1 or 2 times a year), I can't straighten up. I walk at an angle and then eventually collapse from the strain.:(

Edit: does anyone else feel back pain if they perform a butterfly stretch for a minute or so? Is that normal? It's funny. I can jump, roll, flop around no problem. But then, if I sit on the floor for a minute or so during a work meeting when the meeting room's seats are filled, my back will get stiff as all hell. What's up with that?

[BM2]

I suppose we could take bets on your back. I am going with muscle spasm.
When it's a nerve, it's bad.
Now don't mis-understand what I typed. There is an underlying problem that would cause the spasms but unless the ruptured disc is putting pressure on the nerve, or some of the fluid from the disc has inflammed the nerve, a rupture in itself doesn't cause pain and something like one in five people are walking around with a damaged disc and may not even know it.

[BM2]

FWIW, I tore L4-L5 and L5-S1 and am repeating the information I received.

[Shaolin Wookie]

That's what I've been thinking. It's a rare thing, so it doesn't seem like it would be a pinched nerve, which is what everyone's been telling me.

[kwaichang]

One or two questions how far down does yur pain travel in your leg and
B. Where is the pain exactly in your low back KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

One or two questions how far down does yur pain travel in your leg and
B. Where is the pain exactly in your low back KC

Nothing in the leg. Never in the leg. BUt it's always the same spot. Right at the belt line, or just above it. About an inch and a half to the left of the spine, or right on it...but definately on the left side. It seems like the pain spreads over a 3inch by 3 inch area or so.


It's hard to tell exactly where it comes from. It's kept me bedded for two or three days twice in the past 2 years. I'll see a doctor as soon as my med insurance starts with my new job.

[kwaichang]

What movement makes it worse or better rotation of the spine flexion or extension??? KC

[cjurakpt]

I think I have a pinched nerve or something that acts up after really heavy exercise. It's in my lower left back. When it's really bad (1 or 2 times a year), I can't straighten up. I walk at an angle and then eventually collapse from the strain.:(
it may or may not be so in your case, but that presentation is often associated with reflexive spasm of the hip flexors (iliopsoas), usually on one side; causative factors in that case can be highly varied, including mechanical, positional even visceral - it all depends



Edit: does anyone else feel back pain if they perform a butterfly stretch for a minute or so? Is that normal? It's funny. I can jump, roll, flop around no problem. But then, if I sit on the floor for a minute or so during a work meeting when the meeting room's seats are filled, my back will get stiff as all hell. What's up with that?
it could depend on what your pelvic position is while doing that: if you are centered correctly, it theoretically shouldn't happen; if the pelvis is tilted posteriorly, it could possibly predispose one for excessive tension of lumbar spinal extensors trying to d a just they are not designed for (holding static postures as opposed to phasic postural correction); but I don't know, I haven't examined you



I suppose we could take bets on your back. I am going with muscle spasm.
When it's a nerve, it's bad.
when it's a nerve, you have parasthesia and loss of motor function (e.g. - drop foot); more commonly, LBP and associated symptoms (e.g. - radiation down the leg)are related to muscle spasm / local or regional connective tissue inflammation;


Now don't mis-understand what I typed. There is an underlying problem that would cause the spasms but unless the ruptured disc is putting pressure on the nerve, or some of the fluid from the disc has inflammed the nerve, a rupture in itself doesn't cause pain and something like one in five people are walking around with a damaged disc and may not even know it.
actually, if I recall, it's possibly 30% to 50% of "normal" pop, depending on age, and the symptomatic pop has a not much higher incidence; meaning a lot of false positives and false negatives on MRI...


Nothing in the leg. Never in the leg. BUt it's always the same spot. Right at the belt line, or just above it. About an inch and a half to the left of the spine, or right on it...but definately on the left side. It seems like the pain spreads over a 3inch by 3 inch area or so.
that is an area often associated with sacroiliac related pain, although that area is sort of a garbage can for pain associated with compensations in the pelvis for dysfunctions that could originate just about anywhere, locally, regionally or even globally; the "fact" that you don't have radiation doesn't necessarily mean anything either, insofar as you can have local SI pain that then turns into piriformis pain (bec. piriformis seems to be one of the structures that tries to rebalance the pelvis in the presence of dysfunction), and you can get that piriformis related radiation associated with HS and ITB, or not on any given day unpredictably (as opposed to actual nerve root entrapment, which is
more consistent in its occurrence / elicitation;

It's hard to tell exactly where it comes from. It's kept me bedded for two or three days twice in the past 2 years. I'll see a doctor as soon as my med insurance starts with my new job.[/QUOTE]
in general what i tell clients is to try to find the most comfortable position you can - it may be on the back with legs flexed up and / or off to one side, on the stomach with legs straight or one knee up and possibly rotation of the pelvis, or on the side, with legs straight or top knee bent (all these may require use of pillows to get just right); if they can find this, they stay there for varying periods of time, letting the breathing just do what it wants - at some point, typically when the berthing becomes spontaneously slower and more regular (after possible periods of being more irregular), they try coming SLOWLY out of the position (may be there for 10 min or more) and try finding a neutral vertical position if they can do it without pain (or even see if they can sit in mid-line); they may need to repeat this often or a few times to get traction on it; of course, in your case you would need evaluation by a qualified healthcare professional to determine what would be appropriate for you (especially if there is no change after a few times); as such, the above example is for illustrative purposes only, it is not a prescription or suggestion for anything, I cannot guarantee you or anyone else might not have an adverse response if they do something incorrectly...

[Judge Pen]

Nice Disclaimer at the end! :D

FWIW, my back gave me fits a couple of weeks ago. A good PT did some magic and gave me some specific stretches to try at home. Now its pain free and help up during a pretty vigirous work-out Saturday.

Go see a doctor and aske for a PT with a background in sports medicine wookie

[Shaolin Wookie]

Nice Disclaimer at the end! :D

FWIW, my back gave me fits a couple of weeks ago. A good PT did some magic and gave me some specific stretches to try at home. Now its pain free and help up during a pretty vigirous work-out Saturday.

Go see a doctor and aske for a PT with a background in sports medicine wookie

That's what I'm thinking. The only thing that gets me worried is that when it flairs up at its worst, I can't straighten up, and when it's mildly sore, I can't bend backwards very far. I can always bend forward when it hurts, and when it's at its worst, bending forward is like heaven....but straigtening up is pure hell.

Also, I notice that when it gets bad, it looks like my spine sinks/sags at the waist, and it pushes my stomach out. I'm not fat at all, so it's really easy for me to tell when that's happening. That always strikes me as weird.

It's weird. But thanks to my new med coverage (blessing in disguise, losing my last job) I can get it checked out in a couple of weeks. 'Till then I just make sure to keep it mild, stretch a lot (which I do anyways), and do plenty of Tai Chi.....lol...

I did notice, when I was doing capoeira a lot, that it used to be sore every night after practice. But we did tons of back stretches, and that art is hell on the back anyways with all of the stuff you have to do.

[Baqualin]

That's what I'm thinking. The only thing that gets me worried is that when it flairs up at its worst, I can't straighten up, and when it's mildly sore, I can't bend backwards very far. I can always bend forward when it hurts, and when it's at its worst, bending forward is like heaven....but straigtening up is pure hell.

Also, I notice that when it gets bad, it looks like my spine sinks/sags at the waist, and it pushes my stomach out. I'm not fat at all, so it's really easy for me to tell when that's happening. That always strikes me as weird.

It's weird. But thanks to my new med coverage (blessing in disguise, losing my last job) I can get it checked out in a couple of weeks. 'Till then I just make sure to keep it mild, stretch a lot (which I do anyways), and do plenty of Tai Chi.....lol...

I did notice, when I was doing capoeira a lot, that it used to be sore every night after practice. But we did tons of back stretches, and that art is hell on the back anyways with all of the stuff you have to do.

Sounds like a bulging disc......there's physical Therapy that will help with this.....get to a Doctor asap....be careful until you find out what's going on or you could blow out a disc. Tai Chi 64 & Classical Pa Kua will help.
BQ

[Old Noob]

Sounds like a bulging disc......there's physical Therapy that will help with this.....get to a Doctor asap....be careful until you find out what's going on or you could blow out a disc. Tai Chi 64 & Classical Pa Kua will help.
BQ

And mind what JP said as well. Find guys that do sports medicine. I'm so sick of going to a doctor and saying "this hurts when I do that," only to be told, "stop doing that." I'm 36 not 86 and am not going to stop being active. More and more I'm beginning to believe that western docs don't know all that much. I almost never get a diagnosis when I see a doctor. It seems that they've become more focused on treating symptoms than on making a diagnosis and attempting a cure. Now that you have insurance, Wookie, I recommend finding a DO to be your primary care physician. They seem to have a more holistic approach while having all the prescription power/specialization that MDs have.

...and, in the interest of disclaimers, I may be totally wrong and you might die if you follow my advice. I take no responsibility for any of this.

[Baqualin]

And mind what JP said as well. Find guys that do sports medicine. I'm so sick of going to a doctor and saying "this hurts when I do that," only to be told, "stop doing that." I'm 36 not 86 and am not going to stop being active. More and more I'm beginning to believe that western docs don't know all that much. I almost never get a diagnosis when I see a doctor. It seems that they've become more focused on treating symptoms than on making a diagnosis and attempting a cure. Now that you have insurance, Wookie, I recommend finding a DO to be your primary care physician. They seem to have a more holistic approach while having all the prescription power/specialization that MDs have.

...and, in the interest of disclaimers, I may be totally wrong and you might die if you follow my advice. I take no responsibility for any of this.

Hey Noob,
Did you ever check out Cornmeal....they were at the Fishtank here in Lex. Thursday night and will be at the Terrapin Hill Festival in Sept......they won the Jammy award this year. Also my girlfriends daughter got to go on stage at Wood Songs last night to introduce the main act...she was really excited. Thought you might appreciate.:cool:
BQ

[Old Noob]

Hey Noob,
Did you ever check out Cornmeal....they were at the Fishtank here in Lex. Thursday night and will be at the Terrapin Hill Festival in Sept......they won the Jammy award this year. Also my girlfriends daughter got to go on stage at Wood Songs last night to introduce the main act...she was really excited. Thought you might appreciate.:cool:
BQ

Sounds cool. I actually haven't heard from them. Are they relatively local? I get down to Nashville about once a month but its a quick in-on-Friday-out-on-Sunday trip (I'm down to see my 4-year-old). I'm in the DC area now. Do they get up this way?

[naja]

Now that you have insurance, Wookie, I recommend finding a DO to be your primary care physician. They seem to have a more holistic approach while having all the prescription power/specialization that MDs have.

...and, in the interest of disclaimers, I may be totally wrong and you might die if you follow my advice. I take no responsibility for any of this.

I agree. I see a DO and I have had a much better experience than I ever had with an MD.

[mkriii]

FWIW, I tore L4-L5 and L5-S1 and am repeating the information I received.


I just had my L3 & L4 fused on the 19th of May. I feel great. Still got a long ways to go until fully recovered though. The vertibrae were pinching my sciatica and I had pain all down my right butt cheek and down my leg. The pain is totally gone and the doctor said I will be back to 100% in 8 months to a year. I can go back to training in about 3 or 4 months but only light training. I had a herniated disk that was oozing out from between the vertibrae.

[Baqualin]

Sounds cool. I actually haven't heard from them. Are they relatively local? I get down to Nashville about once a month but its a quick in-on-Friday-out-on-Sunday trip (I'm down to see my 4-year-old). I'm in the DC area now. Do they get up this way?

No their out of Chicago and they play all over the Country....just played at Bonaroo....google them.
BQ

[Baqualin]

I just had my L3 & L4 fused on the 19th of May. I feel great. Still got a long ways to go until fully recovered though. The vertibrae were pinching my sciatica and I had pain all down my right butt cheek and down my leg. The pain is totally gone and the doctor said I will be back to 100% in 8 months to a year. I can go back to training in about 3 or 4 months but only light training. I had a herniated disk that was oozing out from between the vertibrae.

WOW...take it easy man!!!!

[Old Noob]

No their out of Chicago and they play all over the Country....just played at Bonaroo....google them.
BQ

Definitely. I don't get out for live music as much as I'd like but if they get nearby, I'll check them out.

[Old Noob]

Definitely. I don't get out for live music as much as I'd like but if they get nearby, I'll check them out.

Looks like they were in DC in February. They're out west now. I'll look for them next time they come around. I love bluegrass. There's a big festival out on the Chesapeake Bay in September that I try not to miss.

[BM2]

I just had my L3 & L4 fused on the 19th of May. I feel great. Still got a long ways to go until fully recovered though. The vertibrae were pinching my sciatica and I had pain all down my right butt cheek and down my leg. The pain is totally gone and the doctor said I will be back to 100% in 8 months to a year. I can go back to training in about 3 or 4 months but only light training. I had a herniated disk that was oozing out from between the vertibrae.

Oh man that sucks. I had the butt cheeck pain also pain that felt as if it was a pulled hamstring but I was lucky that my discs didn't herniate, just bulged under pressure. It cleared up with the shots into my spine.
It was the PT that helped get me to be more pain free. I was doing Tai Chi everyday two or three times. It may have helped but I couldn't tell it compared to the what the PT was able to do for me.

[Yao Sing]

I'm dealing with this right now too but without coverage or loads of money I'm stuck until I can find a decompression plan I can afford. Right now I have an inversion table hoping that will work.

[naja]

Right now I have an inversion table hoping that will work.

Does the inversion table seem to help at all? I've been wondering about one of those......

[Yao Sing]

I really don't like hanging upside down and it hurts so I can't stay there long (most claim it feels good but I seem to be the opposite with everything) but it does seem to be helping. Also loading up on Glucosamine so I don't know how much to contribute to each but I feel like it could eventually releive the problem.

I think decompression treatments would fix it quicker with less discomfort so I still want to do that but in the mean time I'm sticking with the table and supplements.

Got the table for $80 on Amazon so it's definitely worth the time and money.

[mkriii]

WOW...take it easy man!!!!

Yeah, but I'd like to start doing some light tia chi in about a month or so. I think that tia chi would be helful healthwise. What do you think? If I came there to you, you wouldn't hold anything against me for what I said about SD in the past would you? LOL. I had the fusion done on May 19th.

[Baqualin]

Yeah, but I'd like to start doing some light tia chi in about a month or so. I think that tia chi would be helful healthwise. What do you think?

It would be a big help.

If I came there to you, you wouldn't hold anything against me for what I said about SD in the past would you? LOL. I had the fusion done on May 19th.

I'm not like that.....I care only about the art & helping people have a better (healthy) lifestyle.
BQ

[Old Noob]

Please tell me that you all didn't get your bad backs from practicing MA???:eek::confused:

[Old Noob]

Who wrote the SD wikipedia entry? I wonder if there's a "controversy" section for every CMA school.

[Baqualin]

Please tell me that you all didn't get your bad backs from practicing MA???:eek::confused:

Not me....when I worked as a Geologist I hurt mine lifting full rock core boxes.:eek:
BQ

But the ACL....broken wrist, ribs and a few other things Yes:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

I recieved my bad back courtesy of a Chuck Norris roundhouse. He's the only man alive that could hurt the wook.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Okay....so what's the major difference between the short forms we teach as the core of Shaolin-Do, and what's contained in the vid below?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGJoj1RRYd4&feature=related

I don't get it. It's the same exact thing, only we don't hold one arm back like we're fencing or something....:confused: If anything, the only fault you could lay with the short forms is that they're more natural than tan tui, and strike in more cogent and reasonable manners. Oh well....

SDISCOOL: I know you've posted it before, but what's the variation of our Tai Chi 64 and it's origin?

I have this book I never really read that I picked up off my shelf the other day...it's the THIRTEEN TREATISES OF CHENG TZU.....I think it's Cheng Man Ch'ing.....great read. It looks like our form, and his applications describe our applications...

BTW, while we're talking about books, if any of you haven't read Meir Sahar's book Shaolin Monastery, it's a great read.

[tattooedmonk]

Okay....so what's the major difference between the short forms we teach as the core of Shaolin-Do, and what's contained in the vid below?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGJoj1RRYd4&feature=related

I don't get it. It's the same exact thing, only we don't hold one arm back like we're fencing or something....:confused: If anything, the only fault you could lay with the short forms is that they're more natural than tan tui, and strike in more cogent and reasonable manners. Oh well....

. I agree . The arm hanging out there is just plain weird to me . I just learned the 10 roads and the 12 roads versions . I modified them a little to be more like our 30 in regards to the hanging arm . I know their are various reasons as to why they do it that way but, it does not seem to work in application unless you are using it as if you were holding someone elses arm or whatever.

I wonder if it is something that was mis translated and mis taught over the years .

To me it just looks silly....no offense. I still think they are a valuable tool in the CMA arsenal.

[brucereiter]

SDISCOOL: I know you've posted it before, but what's the variation of our Tai Chi 64 and it's origin?


in my opinion the yang 64 tai chi chuan we learned in shaolin do is a modified version of cheng man chings "37" form.

37 posture Yang Taiji form developed and performed by Chen Manching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USJPmCZ6Efc

the history is shaolin do is unclear but i have come to this conclusion based of various people i have worked with who practice that style, video evidence, cheng man chings books and not finding any other reference to any other yang tai chi chuan having 37 (or 38 depending on how you count it) postures in the same order as we do.

some examples of "changes"
sd does hands wave in the clouds with no stepping
sd does turn and sweep the lotus as a side thrust/sweep
there are a few other differences but those are the biggest.

in my opinion it was a very popular style in indonesia and is likely the ie chang ming in fact taught it to sin kwang the but in my opinion very unlikely that "su kong tai jin" taught it to ie chang ming.

just call me bruce ... i prefer to use my name ...

[SDJerry]

I agree . The arm hanging out there is just plain weird to me . I just learned the 10 roads and the 12 roads versions . I modified them a little to be more like our 30 in regards to the hanging arm . I know their are various reasons as to why they do it that way but, it does not seem to work in application unless you are using it as if you were holding someone elses arm or whatever.

I wonder if it is something that was mis translated and mis taught over the years .

To me it just looks silly....no offense. I still think they are a valuable tool in the CMA arsenal.

Tai Mantis has some basic drills like these and although the movements are not exactly the same I'm certain the theory is. These drills are strictly exercises designed to even out both sides of the body and usually taught at the beginner level.

[Shaolin Wookie]

in my opinion the yang 64 tai chi chuan we learned in shaolin do is a modified version of cheng man chings "37" form.

37 posture Yang Taiji form developed and performed by Chen Manching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USJPmCZ6Efc

the history is shaolin do is unclear but i have come to this conclusion based of various people i have worked with who practice that style, video evidence, cheng man chings books and not finding any other reference to any other yang tai chi chuan having 37 (or 38 depending on how you count it) postures in the same order as we do.

some examples of "changes"
sd does hands wave in the clouds with no stepping
sd does turn and sweep the lotus as a side thrust/sweep
there are a few other differences but those are the biggest.

in my opinion it was a very popular style in indonesia and is likely the ie chang ming in fact taught it to sin kwang the but in my opinion very unlikely that "su kong tai jin" taught it to ie chang ming.

just call me bruce ... i prefer to use my name ...

So, when you practice your Yang 64, after the slanting position in section three, do you consider the "slight" resetting of the back foot a cloud hand step, or do you just consider it an adjustment for the horse stance/cloud hands? How far do you step in before resetting?

[tattooedmonk]

Tai Mantis has some basic drills like these and although the movements are not exactly the same I'm certain the theory is. These drills are strictly exercises designed to even out both sides of the body and usually taught at the beginner level.I have seen a variety of different versions of "Tan Tui" . I do not think I have seen the Tai Mantis version.

When GMS taught mantis he also taught the 10 road form of Mantis tan tui .( I liked this version of tan tui very much , great apps.)

I understand that tan tui is a common term and is used to describe different things . I know there are standard forms of tan tui and some not so standard. Some long some short. I understand also that not all forms are meant to martially applicable but, the skill needs to have smooth transfer to martial application tomake it's use valid. I do not see the arm hanging out abducted from the body as transferable skill unless, like I said ,that it was used to hold onto your opponent.

[brucereiter]

So, when you practice your Yang 64, after the slanting position in section three, do you consider the "slight" resetting of the back foot a cloud hand step, or do you just consider it an adjustment for the horse stance/cloud hands? How far do you step in before resetting?

hi mr wookie :-),

yes it could be considered as such. i step in about shoulders width but right knee is still bent. where it is different is there is no step behind to your left like most yang style forms. they way i/we practice it is to study the shifting of your mass from one leg to the other in time with your hands "waiving".

this is how i practice and understand section 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynXWQYo5ZFY
does that answer your question?

i hope that helps.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Thanks for the link to Cheng Man Ch'ing.

After reading much of his Thirteen Treatises, I assume that's exactly where our form comes from, with slight variations (perhaps to link it more to the art, since the thrust kick of "hang the lotus" is one of those core kicks to SD; plus, SD's emphasis on complete and utter slowness in all postures without speeding up or slowing down at key points). I love the man's form. It's more about simplicity than aesthetics. Nothing flowery like most Tai Chi you see nowadays. He carries his hands and body in a much different way than most Tai Chi practitoners. I don't have a better word than "lazy".....but it only looks that way, because he's not worrying about its floweriness, t-stepping, and all of that. There are only slight differences in the way we do some motions, such as our forward-weighted repulse the monkey, which only retreats after the posture pushes forward, the neck controlling (slang term: chuck the chicken...LOL) throw between two kicks, and reptitions of some brush the knees. But everything is pattterened on his version, IMO.

But there's a vid of his push hands online where he's going up against some white guys, and throwing them around. I laugh when I see it, because the white guys are bent over nearly double just to play hands with him....LOL....:D...so it's no wonder he's throwing them around.

I don't see much chance of our Tai Chi coming from way down the line, either. In her introduction to the Treatises, Madame Cheng says that her husband, Man-Ch'ing, moved to Taiwan in 1949 to escape the political turmoil of China. Also, he felt that because of the Japanese presence in Taiwan province, there was a large population of alienated Chinese youths without a cultural link to the qigong/martial practices of the mainland, and thought Tai Chi would best embody Chinese martial arts for the new generation. So, he spread his art through Taiwan, and it spread to Malaysia....so Indonesia isn't much of a stretch. A student of his, Wu Kuo Chong, has a school in Indonesia, or one of his students does. When it was built, I don't know, but it suggests a popularity in Indonesia.

If GGM Ie Chang Ming picked up Tai Chi in his travels, he could have done so if he was moving through Korea or Taiwan, or maybe refugees brought the art to Indonesia. That seems likely.

But if I'm not mistaken, GM Sin told the story that he learned Yang Tai Chi from a "fruity" Tai Chi master in Java, not GGM Ie. But I might be mistaken in what style he learned from that guy.

This wiki entry certainly seems to clarify the issues I've had with trying to find a comparable Yang 64 or 38 posture Yang in the broad world of Tai Chi Ch'uan:

It should be noted that Cheng rejected the appellation "Yang Style Short Form" to characterize his t'ai chi. When pressed on the issue, he called his form "Yang-Style Tai Chi in 37 Postures." However, the postures in his form are counted differently from those in the Yang Cheng-fu form. In the older form each movement counts as a posture, whereas in the Cheng form postures are counted only the first time they are performed, and rarely or not at all when they are repeated. Moreover, certain postures which appear in the Cheng form, such as High Pat on Horse, are not counted at all. These differences in how the postures are counted have led some Cheng practitioners, such as William C.C. Chen, to characterize their own forms as exceeding 70 "movements," and indeed, upon close comparison with the Yang Cheng-fu form, Cheng's postures, if counted the same way as Yang's are, would number over 70.

Cheng's changes to the Yang style form have never been officially recognised by the Yang family and (perhaps partly because of the continued popularity of Cheng's shortened form) his style is still a source of controversy among some t'ai chi ch'uan practitioners.


As for the Tan Tui issue, from what I understand, Tan Tui is posture training and form training, not fight training. So, it's usually done slow, posture to posture, much like our "short forms/katas" are generally done when you start. They introduce all the major stances, get your body moving in a way proper for the art, and really do work your mechanics. The only difference is, our forms are done with specific defense/offense combinations in mind as you get better, and you never leave your arm hanging to the outside, because it's more about fighting posture, rather than "keep that arm hanging back, because this is elementary posture training and we don't want you letting that hand get in the way"...LOL....:D. Plus, their down block rotates in a small circle first to the inside then to the outside. We eliminate that small circle and cut down the center line. My favorite app for our version is to clear the incoming punch to the inside or your opponent's body with the high block or the mid-block, grab during rotation, and bring the down block to the opponents shoulder to control for a take down or sweep.......a little less complicated than Technique #4, but something along those lines, and exactly fitted to the movement.

Many of SD's edits of CMA make sense to me. But then, I took wushu classes, so I've seen non-combative CMA firsthand...LOL....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's a question:

Let's say you're a Shaolin-Do or a Shaolin-Tao teacher, and you operate a school under GM Sin, and you don't agree with the history he has presented such that:

1. Yang Tai Chi is likely a variant of Cheng Man Ch'ing
2. Pakua is a variant of Jiang Rong Qiao
3. Fukien Shaolin Temple is partially mythological, in the very least; the usual Shaolin-Do literature lists Taoist temples as part of a network of Buddhist temples.
4. The list can go on forever.....but the styles do not fit the origin of the history.
5. Too many forms to learn in too little time. Who among us could learn 900 forms in the short time he spent with Ie before coming to the US? I don't doubt many were picked up firsthand, or that many were reconstructed from notes and faulty memory (nevertheless, GM Sin's martial knowledge is more than sufficient to reconstruct them, just as countless other MA's have adapted well-known arts for various reasons. But admitting this is just honest.)

Do you think it's a bad idea to contradict the oral tradition in the face of historical accuracy?

Now, I think GM Sin is a great martial artist, and I don't think he's dishonest in the least. But he is a showman by his own admission, and will embellish details like any storyteller (and I do think he earnestly loves to tell stories that do have value in themselves, because I've never had a seminar from him that did not include at least three entertaining stories that added another dimension to what I was learning:)), and he seems to love the "mythos" of martial arts as much as the physical counterpart. I'm a big believer in the value of oral culture and history, but also in historical accuracy. Both of them tend to go hand-in-hand, and without a good balance, they both get comprimised and lose themselves within their solipsism. Just like T.S. Eliot once said of poetry and prose, it is to the detriment of prose when it drifts too far from poetry, and it is to the detriment of poetry when it drifts too far from common modes of speech seen in prose. There is a place for the oral tradition he's passed down, but in the face of historical accuracy, the art could use some editing for all purposes, IMO, especially on paper. That would begin in the school. On the wall. In their texts. Not to cheapen the oral tradition, but to steep it in reality, which it seems it could use a healthy dosage of. The literature SD passes around is grounded in misconceptions, bad dates, occluded sources, and rooted in ideas that predated the information currently accessible. But most CMA's were...the difference is that they became enlightened with the new waves of information. Most people say....hey....there's value in that. But SD's PR seems to reject the possibility of say, a mild "reformation" of sorts, which would actually STUDY THE ART OF SHAOLIN-DO as an art. That's where the value of this thread lies, and I think that's why we're all here, right?

Can this be done "in-school" without disrespecting our Grand Master, or would this be a dishonorable step? Personally, I don't see it as a personal attack (I've said some things on this thread that were arguable disrespectful to the art and GM Sin, and I apologize for that, but they were frank questions in earnesty and honesty, and so weren't directed to be nasty)....and historical integrity means you value your traditions even as you practice them, even as they change and the way you view them changes.

This was on my mind this morning, because the same kinds of questions I've asked over the past two months have helped me come to terms with the Christian religion and my distaste for it, even reactionary, inflammatory, angry response to it, and reach an appreciation for that tradition and its variations, even though I don't continue in the tradition and opt for Eastern ideas. Why not learn from the past? I got over seven years of outrage over tradition in only two months and feel a huge weight off my shoulders. Placing mythos and historical fact in their proper spheres, differentiating fact from legend, third-party historical/academic studies from inaccurate first-hand accounts.....and then, more importantly, valuing the teaching for the truths it relates, even if they're a little less than true, factually and historically.

Now, I'm in no way conflating the two things, but the same spirit of inquisition would be of benefit to the art. Some schools are a little more progressive in this direction, others are not. That's understandable, especially when you take the geography of the art's root into question. It "grew up" in relative isolation in Kentucky in the 60's, so it "grew up" differently than many CMA arts in the US, which were basically enclaves of immigrant students and practiitoners. And Indonesia seems like a hardcore, mythos-based MA kind of place if you look at the old videos.

The only problem I can see with a reformed history is the question of the reformer's integrity. At this point, one cannot change the history to conform with the "truth" as many of us see it without being accused of leeching off of Shaolin's prestige for justifying a questionable art--the reason this thread catches flack. Why not speak more openly of the Indonesian root? Clearly, we have recourse to info on Ie Chang Ming....why not give more info on that?

The art has value to many of us, just as any art has value to anyone who devotes time to it and gleans some truths, even from its untruths (historically and factually)....

I can see my mantis in other mantis, my tan tui in other tan tui's, my tiger in other tigers, my crane in other cranes, my monkey in other monkies:p....just in slightly altered and different patterns. And when I talk to other students, I talk in the historical mode, rather than the mythological mode most speak in. Is this considered inflammatory or disrespectful? When I talk about how official Sevenstar schools do a White Monkey Steals the Peach routine, and how it differs from what we were taught, I get that look like.....what are you talking about? There can only be one....the Secrets of the Temple says so....LOL.....or if I say this is the Tai Chi taught by Cheng Man Ching, in the 50's, adapted from the long form for simplicity, rather than "The ORIGINAL SHAOLIN TEMPLE STYLE" tai chi....LOL, which is a contradiction in itself....well, you get the idea.....

So, what's the big whoop? Can you imagine the vast resources we'd have recourse to if we could get a bigger picture of our art? Why not celebrate its diversity and its variations, rather than denigrating it with reactionary "shun the information" self-collapsing "everything else is PRC propaganda" kind of literature?

I've got a little digital camcorder that takes decent videos. I'll polish up some forms and post them on youtube this year. Mostly it's to share them with family in Michigan and elsewhere, but y'all can poke fun at them, too. I think Senior Master Grooms, Bruce, and JP did a good job posting. I'm not the best, and only have a couple of years in the art, but I'm willing to share...LOL...and get ridiculed...

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's the thing: in any endeavor, the truth that one demands will often shape the response that one is given. If you are earnest in seeking the truth, regardless of the outcome or expectation, without flattery or self-conscious timidity, you will generally find the truth. If we were to ask the right questions of the right people, we would get the right answers. This can be done with respect and integrity, because truth is grounded in respect and integrity--not disrespectful skepticism--as I am slowly learning:o. Every article I've ever seen printed in a magazine or book generally comes from James Halladay. No disrespect for him, but he presents the "old-school" view of MA, and does not conduct his examinations of the art with any kind of academic standard. If I wrote uncited articles without distinction between oral historical tradition and consensus historical opinons (aka FACT), I'd get booted right out of grad school. I understand why that is, and I know why it's a valuable standard.

If we ask the right questions of our elders, as some of us do, I think, and if we asked the right-minded questions of GM Sin, we'd learn what we want. You only have to make the opportunities avaliable, and take advantage of any opportunity you get.

Right now, those opportunities are scarce.

I like the art, and plan on continuing with it for some time, and I'd like to know more about it. So, I'll take advantage of every opportunity I get.

Many of the answers will be simple. For example:
Why do we hang the lotus with a thrust kick instead of outside-smashing? Easy, because tai chi is about creating distance off of opponents' forward pressure, and a thrust kick does this better than any outside smash, especially off of a stepping maneuver to the outside of hte opponent's attack.

These kinds of inquiries, and the spirit of hte inquiries will often evolve into theoretical discussions on the nature of belief, valuing oral tradition, why one thinks certain things, what one really thinks, which is more important---reality or stories--and I think GM Sin is the kind of guy who would enjoy discussing that. But so long as people continue to ask him simple questions, he will give simplistic answers. If you ask him difficult questions, or deeper questions, or historical questions, based on FACTS, you'll get more complicated answers that will clear things up.

If I'm helping to teach a class at the MA school I attend, and a student asks me a question, I'm going to give him my answer, as I understand it. I won't tell him yadayadayada as so-and-so said in such-and-such story. I'll be honest. If they want a technique, I'll give it to them straight up.

For example: the prevalence of standing arm-breaks. Beginning students think this is a cool technique. It is. But it's highly unlikely any of them will pull that off any time soon, or ever. I've seen one dude that can do it anytime he wants. One dude. For everyone else, I prescribe a kind of clear/slap-block maneuver. I, personally, never practice a standing arm-break, because I'll never take that chance for an unlikely technique, which is akin to snapping at flies with chopsticks. I'd rather use a flyswatter (well, actually, I'd leave the bugger alone and let him fly). I'll change the form, because I can use a slap-block/clear now, and use it consistently, even against better people. Same posture, same maneuver, different intent, different result and continuation. I say that with a disclaimer, when teaching it, so they can choose whatever they want.

The art is versatile, and it can change in anyone's hands. I can't wait to see Master Nance's sparring vids, as one of our ATL sifus is in it--a really great MA I practice with, with a great sense of martial ethics and expermentation--and I'd like to see him get tossed around for once...LOL...

[Steps down from soapbox]

[Golden Tiger]

Do you think it's a bad idea to contradict the oral tradition in the face of historical accuracy?

I guess you would have to see what value would be added by doing so. Would it change the outcome of your training? Make you a better fighter? Make you train harder? What actual value would be added by going to all the students, past and present, and saying that everything that you have been told over the years is not historically correct?

Other than giving them better ammunition for forum debates, I don't see what the big deal is about. Take the stories with a grain of salt, learn what we have to offer, and then take it from there. If your training is stalled by thinking that Su Kong came up with all of it as apposed to Master Sin learning it all from previously un-released 8mm films smuggled from China, then you might need to think less and train more.

Speaking as a teacher in SD, and a student for many many many years, if I didn't have most of the stories and names written down, I would have forgotten them long ago. Yet I am still a pretty darn good martialartist. go figure:rolleyes:

[kungfujunky]

one of these days soon Golden Tiger i will be in KY and will very much enjoy training with you sir.

[brucereiter]

Here's a question:

Let's say you're a Shaolin-Do or a Shaolin-Tao teacher, and you operate a school under GM Sin, and you don't agree with the history he has presented such that:

1. Yang Tai Chi is likely a variant of Cheng Man Ch'ing
2. Pakua is a variant of Jiang Rong Qiao


I was a teacher in the system and I never once told a student the history as it is related in gmt’s book and most other sd sources.

I pointed students to jiang rong qiaos book for reference etc etc …
Most students do not know or care about digging deeper though.

When asked a history question I said:
a. I do not know

Or

b. what I think the factual history is.



Do you think it's a bad idea to contradict the oral tradition in the face of historical accuracy?
I think that is a bad idea. I want facts not myths.



The literature SD passes around is grounded in misconceptions, bad dates, occluded sources, and rooted in ideas that predated the information currently accessible. But most CMA's were...the difference is that they became enlightened with the new waves of information. Most people say....hey....there's value in that. But SD's PR seems to reject the possibility of say, a mild "reformation" of sorts, which would actually STUDY THE ART OF SHAOLIN-DO as an art. That's where the value of this thread lies, and I think that's why we're all here, right?
There is a lot of misinformation passed down in sd and I do not like that. I will say master gary has done a good job of weeding out much of the legends from the atl csc schools but it was not always the case.




Can this be done "in-school" without disrespecting our Grand Master, or would this be a dishonorable step? Personally, I don't see it as a personal attack (I've said some things on this thread that were arguable disrespectful to the art and GM Sin, and I apologize for that, but they were frank questions in earnesty and honesty, and so weren't directed to be nasty)....and historical integrity means you value your traditions even as you practice them, even as they change and the way you view them changes.
I could never find a way to respectfully ask gmt these questions.
I do think he is a very nice man and a very skilled martial artist but maybe not “master” of all that is claimed.
Many people just have blind faith though.




The art has value to many of us, just as any art has value to anyone who devotes time to it and gleans some truths, even from its untruths (historically and factually)....
I value and hold dear many things that I learned from my teachers in sd.



when I talk to other students, I talk in the historical mode, rather than the mythological mode most speak in. Is this considered inflammatory or disrespectful?

I think the truth is respectful and best to speak in “historical mode”
Just make sure you do more training than speaking J

Fact the tai chi and pakua that are taught do not have the history presented. You or any teacher should not lie about that or be lied to.



what are you talking about? There can only be one....the Secrets of the Temple says so....LOL.....or if I say this is the Tai Chi taught by Cheng Man Ching, in the 50's, adapted from the long form for simplicity, rather than "The ORIGINAL SHAOLIN TEMPLE STYLE" tai chi....LOL, which is a contradiction in itself....well, you get the idea.....
that just irks me!



So, what's the big whoop? Can you imagine the vast resources we'd have recourse to if we could get a bigger picture of our art? Why not celebrate its diversity and its variations, rather than denigrating it with reactionary "shun the information" self-collapsing "everything else is PRC propaganda" kind of literature?
Yes. This is one of the reasons I decided to pursue another system to learn bagua.




I've got a little digital camcorder that takes decent videos. I'll polish up some forms and post them on youtube this year. Mostly it's to share them with family in Michigan and elsewhere, but y'all can poke fun at them, too. I think Senior Master Grooms, Bruce, and JP did a good job posting. I'm not the best, and only have a couple of years in the art, but I'm willing to share...LOL...and get ridiculed...

Looking forward to seeing some clips of your practice.
My only advice out of respect is to not put up a whole form …
Some people will just trash you but others may offer good advice and help you improve. Have a thick skin and if someone does not like what you presented try to understand why if it is valid learn from it if not ignore it.

[brucereiter]

Many of the answers will be simple. For example:
Why do we hang the lotus with a thrust kick instead of outside-smashing? Easy, because tai chi is about creating distance off of opponents' forward pressure, and a thrust kick does this better than any outside smash, especially off of a stepping maneuver to the outside of hte opponent's attack.


another translation is "turn and sweep the lotus".
think of a common Shuai jiao throw
gm chang http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhALaS1DlZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKJEQ8liCJw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g8D0DmwlSU

you can do turn and hang the lotus as a side kick to the ribs and that is good but it is not the only option.

also the outside smash kick may want to be thought of as a sweep too.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I guess you would have to see what value would be added by doing so. Would it change the outcome of your training? Make you a better fighter? Make you train harder? What actual value would be added by going to all the students, past and present, and saying that everything that you have been told over the years is not historically correct?



You're missing the point. SD has grown up in relative isolation and has no sense of its history. What it's done is filled in the blanks with inaccurate perceptions of itself. Rather than looking for corroboration, it's done what Barrack Obama criticized the conservative right as having done: clinging to its "guns" and its morals.....LOL........rather than seeing what others have to say. This is where I question integrity, because we all know that the consensus of a community's respected teachers will always trump one man's knowledge, right?

Will this make you punch better? Maybe not. But it may make your appreciation and perception of the art more fulfilling. What if you don't understand what GM Sin has said, or what one of his senior practitioners has said concerning a movement in a style you really enjoy, and they can't answer it (you know some things are learned grudgingly, and many don't think about it much)....but then, for example, some practitioner of Jeet Kuen said something about the nature of the punching combinations that completely elucidated your practice of Chie Chien--Interconnecting Fist....and maybe you'd punch harder if you followed that rule. Never take your information from one source. GM Sin may know a lot, but it's a mere pebble in the stream in this information age where good MA resources get published regularly.

You wouldn't, say, be interested in attending a senior student's seminar in Yang Tai Chi who studied with Cheng Man Ch'ing? You don't think he'd have insights GM Sin didn't? Don't you think participating in a martial community at large, rather than in privacy, has some kind of value? What if you went to a Tai Chi tournament and when they asked your style you said: "I study the original Shaolin styled Yang Tai Chi," and then thumped your chest. They'd probably stick you in the "special" division, or with the children, because that's the kind of maturity that statement represents----IGNORANCE. You don't think this is a problem, when you could actually provide a link and say, "I study a variation of Cheng Man Ch'ing's Yang 38"? It's not about saving face. It's about being honest, knowing your root, and understanding your art. I think those are valuable things in all arts.

The other thing is: it's not about what any individual "thinks" will make them better. It's about making information available so individuals can learn as much as they wish. Sorry, but some instructors haven't delved as deeply as others, and they don't have that information. But their disinterest in more info shouldn't keep someone else from having access to it. Why not throw them a line?

In Atlanta, learning the art's history is part of the ranking system. The questions are, thankfully, for the most part, based on more accurate historicity (some aren't) and on the art itself. But I do think there is a critical error in judgment when someone attributes Taoist arts and Taoist principles to a Buddhist temple as a catchphrase for the art, when the divide between them is rather large, when the religious rites of the two are very diverse, and the principles behind the Buddhist arts and the Taoist arts do not "gel" as easily as one might like.

Edit: Corroborating with other sources does not mean changing SD's forms. Every school varies its forms in some way or another. Sometimes it's large, sometimes it's small. But generally it's with a knowledge of "why" this is so or not so

[Shaolin Wookie]

another translation is "turn and sweep the lotus".
think of a common Shuai jiao throw
gm chang http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhALaS1DlZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKJEQ8liCJw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g8D0DmwlSU

.

I agree, but I see that more in forms like Fei Hu Chu Tung. The whole arm break, step behind to scissor-step rotation to reverse thrust kick is to me ridiculous, because the motion is clearly a throw and setup for a throw.But then, I don't like the arm-break strategy. I often play it as a side-step clear and grab, which would deflect and pull the arm in. If I was going to break, I'd continue rotating the arm across my body, but the form doesn't really seem to be patterning that...and besides, even if you sidestep from that kind of punch, your head won't clear any distance.


You're moving from a horse stance where, ostensibly, you've grabbed two hands from your neck or your shoulders and then thrown them off, the opponent standing behind you. Or, lets say you can't remove his hands, and he's still hanging onto you. Rather than just flinging the arms and your arms, however, as many do and tell others to do, the hands (at least, the right one in this form) should circle back around or over the neck of the opponent, then come around as you rotate around your right leg for the back step, carrying the opponent over your right hip. You wind up in a stance comparable to the standard SD explanation. This would require a different line of step for stability. At this point, most SD dudes will do an arm break, stopping their rotation--which seems to me an error in judgment as I perceive the form. But what if they've still got a hold on you? Rather than envisioning that mysterious fourth person punching from an unknown direction out of the great ethereal mists (an explanation that is foundation for standing arm breaks and which is pretty much code for "I don't know what in the hell I'm doing here")....rather than that, I sweep the friggin' hell out of their support leg (the thrust kick) as you take them down hard. The leg raises and kicks out, but with an arc to it and with rotational force of the hip---not a thrust outwards.

Now, I realize this is my perception of the movement, and it may be wrong. But I'm willing to bet I and everyone else could pull it off at least with 90% more chance of success than a "pluck the arm out of the air" standing arm-break, and I think it's a valid technique that can be used in any sparring match, because when you collide, it's not hard to do. SD is loaded with throws and chinna, and the Master of the school I attend is great at pointing them out. But when other people don't listen, and they're lazy, and they don't pass that info on to beginners, we get an art riddled with inconsistencies as students "grow up". Maintenance requires earnesty and consistency.

Of course, one has to abandon the idea that hte arms have to cross and break, unless performing a neck break at the hip-contanct point. The circular rotation of the scissor-step windup and unwind is also of paramount importance. But again--you don't have to change the movements of the form---just the intent and the result.

To me, tiger is about getting someone down fast, with grappling. Fei Hu Chu Tung starts with at least three grappling maneuvers. I don't see why a standing arm break would occur out of the blue halfway through in a throwin motion, but that's just me.

BTW: I've used this technique a couple of times, and once dislocated someone's shoulder with it (he was out of line and gunning for my head full force in a sparring match despite warnings). It works, and it's easy. 2 reasons why I think it's the right motion for SD's introductory, simple, beginner's tiger form. Honestly, when you throw them with it, they're like--you didn't learn that here, now let's do kung fu......

Oh well........LOL........

[kwaichang]

I am confused as to where you have an arm break and a step behind in Fe Hu ? as for my opinion I will wait for a reply. But if it is the placeright aftyer the 3 swipes at the beginning it is finished with a leg trap. Think of what a tiger does it holds with the front and rips with the back paws. KC:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

I am confused as to where you have an arm break and a step behind in Fe Hu ? as for my opinion I will wait for a reply. But if it is the placeright aftyer the 3 swipes at the beginning it is finished with a leg trap. Think of what a tiger does it holds with the front and rips with the back paws. KC:)

Nope. That's the first grappling maneuver. I have two ways to do that. One, if you're holding their arm ( if you have their left arm), use the rake to pull them forward, use the forward hand to control their shoulder and the left hand to control the wrist rather than elbow/wrist, then sink down to your knee and ram their forearm against your thigh for leverage to force a strain and get them down, or, trap the knee, step through and rip. For the first one, you have to arc the motion as you pull it in, to get the space you need and to force them where you want them. However, you can never do the second version in the school against your friends, and you'll likely catch a lawsuit if you do it outside the school. I know the knee-trap variation, but I don't practice to kick out knees. So, I opt for the former variation, which I kind of concocted. It leaves them in front of you in a bad position.

I'm rather referring to the horse stance after the high-block/punch w/ tiger claw motion, which comes right after the flying front snap kick.

[kungfujunky]

i uploaded an old clip i did of myself doing fe hu and im curious if its the same as what you guys do out east



lmk

i will be removing it as it is just a clip showing movements and not how i actually train the form.

but id like to know whats different or what i might be missing as far as the form goes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGYdu8n4dt0

[tattooedmonk]

If you read Derk Boddhi's ~History of Chinese Philosophy~ you will find that Taoism and Buddhism have had ties for hundreds of years . They are different at the two ends of the extreme but they are also very much alike when you cross examine them at the point where they meet. I also found this to help in you seasrch and studies.


. Taoism and Buddhism were born in the same century. Siddhartha reached enlightenment in approximately 535 B.C. and Lao Tzu’s teachings were recorded around 500 B.C. There are many similarities in the basics of these two religions. Some of the similarities can be seen clearly when examining the three meaning of Tao.

The first definition of Tao is "the way of ultimate reality." This means that Tao cannot be percieved, defined, talked about, or thought of. It is too big a concept for humans to comprehend. As in the first line of the Tao Te Ching (the Taoist text meaning The Way and Its Power): "The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao." This is very similar to the Buddhist idea of Nirvana or Enlightenment. Nirvana cannot be understood by one who has not attained it. Even when one has reached Nirvana, he cannot describe it to others, but only help others to reach it as well.

In its second sense, Tao means "the way of the universe." Tao is something that goes through all beings, all of the earth. It is everywhere, all the time. It is something that flows through everything. This flowing idea links with the idea in Buddhism that Nirvana can be reached by anyone, as long as one is devoted enough and has lost all attachments.

Thirdly, one life must be a certain way to work with the Tao: Tao also refers to "the way of human life" as it "meshes" with the universal Tao in its second sense. This fundamental idea of Taoism has much to do with the "view of unity of man with Heaven and Earth, that is, with Nature." Buddhists also believe that one must live in a certain harmony with nature and the universe to reach Nirvana, or, as it is in Taoism, be at one with the Tao.

Another vital concept of Taoism is that of the wu-wei which is to achieve action through minimal action or inaction. Action is friction and inaction is pure effectiveness in Taoism. This concept compares with Buddhist meditation in which one remains perfectly still and uses only one’s mind. In this state, one may reach enlightenment.

Also, in the Tao Te Ching (13) an idea close to the Buddhist idea of reincarnation is illustrated: Attain to the goal of absolute emptiness, keep to the state of perfect peace. All things come into existence, And thence we see them return. Earth goes back to its origin He who knows eternity is called enlightened. He who does not know eternity is running blindly into miseries

Buddhist reincarnation is the concept that one must go through many cycles of birth, living, and death. After many such cycles, if a person releases their attachment to desire and the self, he can attain Nirvana. In the third and fourth lines of the Taoist passage above, the basic idea of Buddhist reincarnation is explained.

In the idea of reincarnation lies the belief that a person will be born and reborn until he or she reaches Nirvana. Taoists also believe in that basic idea: "The Tao surrounds everyone and therefore everyone must listen to find enlightenment."

As you can see, although Taoism is more of a philosophy and less of a religion as Buddhism is, there are many similarities.

[tattooedmonk]

i uploaded an old clip i did of myself doing fe hu and im curious if its the same as what you guys do out east



lmk

i will be removing it as it is just a clip showing movements and not how i actually train the form.

but id like to know whats different or what i might be missing as far as the form goes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGYdu8n4dt0I would like to make a few comments and critique you if you do not mind??

[kwaichang]

Vastly different as far as intent , the beginning is different as well step back to ready position right hand small inward semi circle Left small outward. 3 swipes bigger, drop left low forming circlr low to high roll over and grab step and break or pul to leg trap. Want me to cont ??? KC application is personal preference

[Shaolin Wookie]

If you read Derk Boddhi's ~History of Chinese Philosophy~ you will find that Taoism and Buddhism have had ties for hundreds of years . They are different at the two ends of the extreme but they are also very much alike when you cross examine them at the point where they meet. I also found this to help in you seasrch and studies.


. Taoism and Buddhism were born in the same century. Siddhartha reached enlightenment in approximately 535 B.C. and Lao Tzu’s teachings were recorded around 500 B.C. There are many similarities in the basics of these two religions. Some of the similarities can be seen clearly when examining the three meaning of Tao.

The first definition of Tao is "the way of ultimate reality." This means that Tao cannot be percieved, defined, talked about, or thought of. It is too big a concept for humans to comprehend. As in the first line of the Tao Te Ching (the Taoist text meaning The Way and Its Power): "The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao." This is very similar to the Buddhist idea of Nirvana or Enlightenment. Nirvana cannot be understood by one who has not attained it. Even when one has reached Nirvana, he cannot describe it to others, but only help others to reach it as well.

In its second sense, Tao means "the way of the universe." Tao is something that goes through all beings, all of the earth. It is everywhere, all the time. It is something that flows through everything. This flowing idea links with the idea in Buddhism that Nirvana can be reached by anyone, as long as one is devoted enough and has lost all attachments.

Thirdly, one life must be a certain way to work with the Tao: Tao also refers to "the way of human life" as it "meshes" with the universal Tao in its second sense. This fundamental idea of Taoism has much to do with the "view of unity of man with Heaven and Earth, that is, with Nature." Buddhists also believe that one must live in a certain harmony with nature and the universe to reach Nirvana, or, as it is in Taoism, be at one with the Tao.

Another vital concept of Taoism is that of the wu-wei which is to achieve action through minimal action or inaction. Action is friction and inaction is pure effectiveness in Taoism. This concept compares with Buddhist meditation in which one remains perfectly still and uses only one’s mind. In this state, one may reach enlightenment.

Also, in the Tao Te Ching (13) an idea close to the Buddhist idea of reincarnation is illustrated: Attain to the goal of absolute emptiness, keep to the state of perfect peace. All things come into existence, And thence we see them return. Earth goes back to its origin He who knows eternity is called enlightened. He who does not know eternity is running blindly into miseries

Buddhist reincarnation is the concept that one must go through many cycles of birth, living, and death. After many such cycles, if a person releases their attachment to desire and the self, he can attain Nirvana. In the third and fourth lines of the Taoist passage above, the basic idea of Buddhist reincarnation is explained.

In the idea of reincarnation lies the belief that a person will be born and reborn until he or she reaches Nirvana. Taoists also believe in that basic idea: "The Tao surrounds everyone and therefore everyone must listen to find enlightenment."

As you can see, although Taoism is more of a philosophy and less of a religion as Buddhism is, there are many similarities.


I know there are metaphorical parallels in ideology, but the actual studies of the two religions are rather diverse if you visit with practitioners. I would liken it more to the parellels in the Mosaic elements of Islam and Christianity. Same root, many shared values, vastly different. I've been to Zen schools, a Shambhala Tibetan Buddhist Center in Atlanta near Peachtree Industrial, and a Tibetan buddhist monk teaches out of our school on Sunday evenings. Granted, Vajrayana is a lot different than Chan, but the base ideologies of both are quite different than Taoism.

That being said, I dabble in both....LOL......so I don't know what in the hell I'm talking about.

Buddhism doesn't really believe in living with the flow of the universe. There are many natural instincts that it seeks to curb. It is about dividing the mind from the concept of self, seeing the mind-in-interaction as a discursion from our true nature....hence, overthinking things. Taoist practitioners do tend to go to some extremes. B ut then, I could be overthinking it.

[kungfujunky]

I would like to make a few comments and critique you if you do not mind??

pm away! thanks

[Shaolin Wookie]

Speaking for Atlanta, that's the same form.

For advice, I'd say roll the shoulders and don't just move the arms. When you rake, make sure you're pulling with your shoulder blades and put power into it with wider strikes, like KC said. I personally like a downward angle, returning to the X position up top in between, but really quick. The next step would be to develop a rhythm.

You're a bigger guy than me, so I get the low stance difficulty, but when you rake/claw forward after the first three claw motions, make sure you drop your hands low, because you're pushing your opponent low. and controlling his arm....especially if you opt for the knee trap.

And don't smile so **** much, no matter what your kids are sayin'. For cryin' out loud man, you're a tiger!:D

Also: use much much bigger motions.

[kungfujunky]

Speaking for Atlanta, that's the same form.

For advice, I'd say roll the shoulders and don't just move the arms.


good point there thx


When you rake, make sure you're pulling with your shoulder blades and put power into it with wider strikes, like KC said. I personally like a downward angle, returning to the X position up top in between, but really quick. The next step would be to develop a rhythm.

rhythm was off due to trying to slow down is all, im usually much faster and fluid with this form

You're a bigger guy than me, so I get the low stance difficulty,

actually i am good with my stances but my dang yard has so many pits in it i was afraid for my ankles lives lol


but when you rake/claw forward after the first three claw motions, make sure you drop your hands low, because you're pushing your opponent low. and controlling his arm....especially if you opt for the knee trap.

never thought of it that way thx!

And don't smile so **** much, no matter what your kids are sayin'. For cryin' out loud man, you're a tiger!:D

Also: use much much bigger motions.



thx man

i appreciate it., again i will be doing a more accurate vid of me doing it nowadays with snap power and aggressiveness

[Shaolin Wookie]

Cool.

Hey, one other thing we do in ATL. After the first three raking motions, you take a step forward and do a small clawing action. Make sure your palms sweep out first, then turn over and pull in. We do it more on a horizontal plane, where you seem to travel on a vertical planee. The reason we do it on the horizontal....LOL....: It's deflecting incoming attack by striking out with the tiger-palms, turning the palms over once contact is made, grabbing, and then yanking it in. At that point, you either knee trap or whatever all while you're holding onto that arm.

[Judge Pen]

Here's a question:

Let's say you're a Shaolin-Do or a Shaolin-Tao teacher, and you operate a school under GM Sin, and you don't agree with the history he has presented such that:

1. Yang Tai Chi is likely a variant of Cheng Man Ch'ing
2. Pakua is a variant of Jiang Rong Qiao
3. Fukien Shaolin Temple is partially mythological, in the very least; the usual Shaolin-Do literature lists Taoist temples as part of a network of Buddhist temples.
4. The list can go on forever.....but the styles do not fit the origin of the history.
5. Too many forms to learn in too little time. Who among us could learn 900 forms in the short time he spent with Ie before coming to the US? I don't doubt many were picked up firsthand, or that many were reconstructed from notes and faulty memory (nevertheless, GM Sin's martial knowledge is more than sufficient to reconstruct them, just as countless other MA's have adapted well-known arts for various reasons. But admitting this is just honest.)

Do you think it's a bad idea to contradict the oral tradition in the face of historical accuracy?

Now, I think GM Sin is a great martial artist, and I don't think he's dishonest in the least. But he is a showman by his own admission, and will embellish details like any storyteller (and I do think he earnestly loves to tell stories that do have value in themselves, because I've never had a seminar from him that did not include at least three entertaining stories that added another dimension to what I was learning:)), and he seems to love the "mythos" of martial arts as much as the physical counterpart. I'm a big believer in the value of oral culture and history, but also in historical accuracy. Both of them tend to go hand-in-hand, and without a good balance, they both get comprimised and lose themselves within their solipsism. Just like T.S. Eliot once said of poetry and prose, it is to the detriment of prose when it drifts too far from poetry, and it is to the detriment of poetry when it drifts too far from common modes of speech seen in prose. There is a place for the oral tradition he's passed down, but in the face of historical accuracy, the art could use some editing for all purposes, IMO, especially on paper. That would begin in the school. On the wall. In their texts. Not to cheapen the oral tradition, but to steep it in reality, which it seems it could use a healthy dosage of. The literature SD passes around is grounded in misconceptions, bad dates, occluded sources, and rooted in ideas that predated the information currently accessible. But most CMA's were...the difference is that they became enlightened with the new waves of information. Most people say....hey....there's value in that. But SD's PR seems to reject the possibility of say, a mild "reformation" of sorts, which would actually STUDY THE ART OF SHAOLIN-DO as an art. That's where the value of this thread lies, and I think that's why we're all here, right?

Can this be done "in-school" without disrespecting our Grand Master, or would this be a dishonorable step? Personally, I don't see it as a personal attack (I've said some things on this thread that were arguable disrespectful to the art and GM Sin, and I apologize for that, but they were frank questions in earnesty and honesty, and so weren't directed to be nasty)....and historical integrity means you value your traditions even as you practice them, even as they change and the way you view them changes.

I think this is done on a personal level and can be done respectfully considering the context of your teachers and the oral tradition that is passed down to them. Always remember, Master Sin is only speaking from personal knowledge with regard to his teachers. He has no direct knowledge beyond that. Averything else is on faith.

This was on my mind this morning, because the same kinds of questions I've asked over the past two months have helped me come to terms with the Christian religion and my distaste for it, even reactionary, inflammatory, angry response to it, and reach an appreciation for that tradition and its variations, even though I don't continue in the tradition and opt for Eastern ideas. Why not learn from the past? I got over seven years of outrage over tradition in only two months and feel a huge weight off my shoulders. Placing mythos and historical fact in their proper spheres, differentiating fact from legend, third-party historical/academic studies from inaccurate first-hand accounts.....and then, more importantly, valuing the teaching for the truths it relates, even if they're a little less than true, factually and historically.

Now, I'm in no way conflating the two things, but the same spirit of inquisition would be of benefit to the art. Some schools are a little more progressive in this direction, others are not. That's understandable, especially when you take the geography of the art's root into question. It "grew up" in relative isolation in Kentucky in the 60's, so it "grew up" differently than many CMA arts in the US, which were basically enclaves of immigrant students and practiitoners. And Indonesia seems like a hardcore, mythos-based MA kind of place if you look at the old videos.

The only problem I can see with a reformed history is the question of the reformer's integrity. At this point, one cannot change the history to conform with the "truth" as many of us see it without being accused of leeching off of Shaolin's prestige for justifying a questionable art--the reason this thread catches flack. Why not speak more openly of the Indonesian root? Clearly, we have recourse to info on Ie Chang Ming....why not give more info on that?

I agree with this. And I have spoken with individuals who have been to indonesia and seen the remnants of the school and the collegues that remain. I see nothing wrong with embracing both the shaolin heritage and the evolution of the art through the indonesian background. Whatever existed in Bangdung developed into an art all on its own. One that had Chinese and shaolin hertitage, but one that adapted into its own art.

The art has value to many of us, just as any art has value to anyone who devotes time to it and gleans some truths, even from its untruths (historically and factually)....

I can see my mantis in other mantis, my tan tui in other tan tui's, my tiger in other tigers, my crane in other cranes, my monkey in other monkies:p....just in slightly altered and different patterns. And when I talk to other students, I talk in the historical mode, rather than the mythological mode most speak in. Is this considered inflammatory or disrespectful? When I talk about how official Sevenstar schools do a White Monkey Steals the Peach routine, and how it differs from what we were taught, I get that look like.....what are you talking about? There can only be one....the Secrets of the Temple says so....LOL.....or if I say this is the Tai Chi taught by Cheng Man Ching, in the 50's, adapted from the long form for simplicity, rather than "The ORIGINAL SHAOLIN TEMPLE STYLE" tai chi....LOL, which is a contradiction in itself....well, you get the idea.....

So, what's the big whoop? Can you imagine the vast resources we'd have recourse to if we could get a bigger picture of our art? Why not celebrate its diversity and its variations, rather than denigrating it with reactionary "shun the information" self-collapsing "everything else is PRC propaganda" kind of literature?
I think that everyone that studies shaolin-do for any number of years understands it has its own unique place in the Chinese martial art culture. Our diveristy is something to celebrate.
I've got a little digital camcorder that takes decent videos. I'll polish up some forms and post them on youtube this year. Mostly it's to share them with family in Michigan and elsewhere, but y'all can poke fun at them, too. I think Senior Master Grooms, Bruce, and JP did a good job posting. I'm not the best, and only have a couple of years in the art, but I'm willing to share...LOL...and get ridiculed...
I hope you do post your videos. What are you now, 1st brown? It would be nice to see someone put up their video representing themselves as an intermediate student doing there forms the best they can based upon their understanding. Since you are doing SD there will always be critics, but I think most knowlegable people see and appreciate the simularities instead of the differences.

[Judge Pen]

i uploaded an old clip i did of myself doing fe hu and im curious if its the same as what you guys do out east



lmk

i will be removing it as it is just a clip showing movements and not how i actually train the form.

but id like to know whats different or what i might be missing as far as the form goes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGYdu8n4dt0

The core movements are there. The details are vastly different then how I do the form. Most of it has been commented on earlier. The biggest issue I see is the scope of the movement. It needs to be larger, faster and more aggressive. As far an application of the technique, it may be that the smaller movements will work, but the form should be trained with the larger movements is mind. Its easier to learn big and apply small then vice versa. I would open up your stances and the range of motion for your strikes. And I would keep in mind the intent behind the form is an angry tiger leaving a place of solitude because of the need to feed or to defend its territory.

[kungfujunky]

Cool.

Hey, one other thing we do in ATL. After the first three raking motions, you take a step forward and do a small clawing action. Make sure your palms sweep out first, then turn over and pull in. We do it more on a horizontal plane, where you seem to travel on a vertical planee. The reason we do it on the horizontal....LOL....: It's deflecting incoming attack by striking out with the tiger-palms, turning the palms over once contact is made, grabbing, and then yanking it in. At that point, you either knee trap or whatever all while you're holding onto that arm.


we do something similar but no emphasis on the claws there...ill work that in and see what i like better


JP

again this was done slow so not the way i practice it lol

i do exaggerate moves more and add a significant snap and focus to my attacks and i am much much more aggressive with it. this was done as a basic model for me to look at. i have not really practiced this form as i was working up my material for 2nd black test. you know how that is lol

i will try to get a better rendition of it filmed and uploaded so you can see fat man flying out of the cave haha

[naja]

I need to see if I can get access to a video camera. The idea of having others judge a vid of my forms was scary when I first thought about it, but doesn't seem so bad now.

If nothing else it would help me to see my progress as time passes.


kungfujunky:
Thanks for posting the vid, hope you can get some more up in the future.

[Judge Pen]

we do something similar but no emphasis on the claws there...ill work that in and see what i like better


JP

again this was done slow so not the way i practice it lol

i do exaggerate moves more and add a significant snap and focus to my attacks and i am much much more aggressive with it. this was done as a basic model for me to look at. i have not really practiced this form as i was working up my material for 2nd black test. you know how that is lol

i will try to get a better rendition of it filmed and uploaded so you can see fat man flying out of the cave haha
Cool. I know you were just walking through the form. With that in mind, the extension was really the only thing that I wasn't sure on, so I mentioned it, so thanks for letting me know that isn't an issue either.

The left-trap, right side kick, turn and double front snap kick with left leg being the second kick, is exactly the way I first learned form. I've seen and been taught a version where, instead of the first low left-trap, it is a left leg side kick (and with the turn it is more like a 180 degree spinning side kick). Anyone else identify variations on this form?

[kungfujunky]

i have added se meng t'ao lian


i have almost all of the forms recorded from white to 2nd black so i will be adding them intermittently as we go along

thx for the feedback

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9t0XDan0Ls

[kungfujunky]

they look wavy i guess but they are 2 upward blocks with the left hand clamping onto the collar bone on the downward motion and pulling into the step back and right hand palm strike

[kungfujunky]

also i went over my notes and this is exactly how i learned it from my instructor at the time....could be a new twist....but ive sat on panels and GMS has watched this rendition of the form and didnt say anything about it?

so maybe it is an accepted change?

[Old Noob]

Cool. I know you were just walking through the form. With that in mind, the extension was really the only thing that I wasn't sure on, so I mentioned it, so thanks for letting me know that isn't an issue either.

The left-trap, right side kick, turn and double front snap kick with left leg being the second kick, is exactly the way I first learned form. I've seen and been taught a version where, instead of the first low left-trap, it is a left leg side kick (and with the turn it is more like a 180 degree spinning side kick). Anyone else identify variations on this form?

I'm a yellow and have just had this form for about a month so I'm pretty close to it. We also do not do the hand movements prior to the horizontal rakes. After the rakes, we're in LBS. Then it's:

1. Grab with the forward (Left) hand
2. Step through with right leg and break with an underhand right
3. Using both hands pull as you trap with left leg
4. Right roundhouse kick
5. Transistion/block to cat stance (left foot forward)
6. jumping front kick

Without looking at my notes, that's how I remember it.

ON

[brucereiter]

i have added se meng t'ao lian


i have almost all of the forms recorded from white to 2nd black so i will be adding them intermittently as we go along

thx for the feedback

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9t0XDan0Ls

hey man,

thanks for adding a clip of some of your practice. i cant really comment on the form since i don't know it but if you have any of the internal material on video i would like to see.

ok i will make one comment ... it is good for you to practice in your yard like that on uneven surface with things to trip over and twist your ankle on. in time this will make your stances and stepping very solid. keep that up.
if you do bagua yet do your circle walking practice on a uneven surface like you yard ...

[brucereiter]

JP,SW & KFJ
I have even reviewed my old 8mm films of this form (circa 1977-1979) with GMS and EML doing the form and I do not see this in the opening ????
OTD

man you gotta share these ... youtube please :-)

[Judge Pen]

JP,SW & KFJ
I have never in my 39 1/2+ years have seen either GMS or EML open up the form with the "wavy" hands B/4 the 3 vertical attacks. I have even reviewed my old 8mm films of this form (circa 1977-1979) with GMS and EML doing the form and I do not see this in the opening ????
OTD

No, you're right. That isn't the way I learned it either.

[Judge Pen]

Your "se meng t'ao lian" is very different. Much more so then your version of Fei Hu.

I understand what you're saying on GMS not correcting forms. You're CSC and they do some of their forms very differently then the "east coast." I know that my teachers in TN do some things in forms a little differently than TX and KY and ATL It appears that GMS affords the senior and elder masters quite a bit of leeway to teach forms based on their own flavor and interpretation. We can argue about why and if that's the way it should be for another 1000 pages, but that's just an observation based upon my 19 1/2 years of experience in this style and what I've seen with my own eyes.

[bodhi warrior]

Hey KFJ, I applaud you having the guts to put yourself out there. With that being said, it's obvious that the CSC group is making some weird changes to their forms. Most obvious is the wavy hands in the tiger and the extra moves added to the tiger and seng mon ta lei.
Here's a written version of them both as I was taught:
Fefuchutung-
1. Step back with rt foot, left hand comes up, right hand makes a small counter clock wise circle back to right side.
2. three horizontal rakes.
3. step forward right foot, pull back left hand and arm break with the right.
4. pull with hands, and knee trap with left leg.
5. round house with right leg.
6. step into a cat with left foot forward, jump straight up and kick with left leg(no double kick).
7. step forward right bow, circle block with right hand, strike forward with right hand, stike back with left at same time.
8. double elbow up, double back fist
9. step up and then back with left foot to a right bow.
10. low back kick with left foot, step down, side kick with right.
11. without setting foot down turn, double front kick starting with right foot.
12. land in a left bow, three horizontal rakes.
13. step forward into right bow, chop to the neck with right hand.
14. rake up with right hand, then grab head and smash to the left knee.
15. step into a reverse bow, right hand blocks to the head, left hand strikes down.
16. shift weight to left bow, left hand blocks to the head, right hand punches down with a yell.
17. step up and bow.
Sorry dont have a vid. I am planning on putting some up. But I hope my written explanation is enough for now. This is how I learned it 20 years ago, and how I still do it to this day.

[Judge Pen]

Hey KFJ, I applaud you having the guts to put yourself out there. With that being said, it's obvious that the CSC group is making some weird changes to their forms. Most obvious is the wavy hands in the tiger and the extra moves added to the tiger and seng mon ta lei.
Here's a written version of them both as I was taught:
Fefuchutung-
1. Step back with rt foot, left hand comes up, right hand makes a small counter clock wise circle back to right side.
2. three horizontal rakes.
3. step forward right foot, pull back left hand and arm break with the right.
4. pull with hands, and knee trap with left leg.
5. round house with right leg.
6. step into a cat with left foot forward, jump straight up and kick with left leg(no double kick).
7. step forward right bow, circle block with right hand, strike forward with right hand, stike back with left at same time.
8. double elbow up, double back fist
9. step up and then back with left foot to a right bow.
10. low back kick with left foot, step down, side kick with right.
11. without setting foot down turn, double front kick starting with right foot.
12. land in a left bow, three horizontal rakes.
13. step forward into right bow, chop to the neck with right hand.
14. rake up with right hand, then grab head and smash to the left knee.
15. step into a reverse bow, right hand blocks to the head, left hand strikes down.
16. shift weight to left bow, left hand blocks to the head, right hand punches down with a yell.
17. step up and bow.
Sorry dont have a vid. I am planning on putting some up. But I hope my written explanation is enough for now. This is how I learned it 20 years ago, and how I still do it to this day.
Your notes are exactly as I was first taught this form.

[kungfujunky]

hey man,

thanks for adding a clip of some of your practice. i cant really comment on the form since i don't know it but if you have any of the internal material on video i would like to see.

ok i will make one comment ... it is good for you to practice in your yard like that on uneven surface with things to trip over and twist your ankle on. in time this will make your stances and stepping very solid. keep that up.
if you do bagua yet do your circle walking practice on a uneven surface like you yard ...

i will be videoing pa kua soon. in the same yard lol

i just want it to be more fluid.

the bird form is exactly as i was taught it. it has excellent application for each move. id be curious to see the version you guys do.

it sounds like the differences in fe hu are so subtle that they could easily have just been misremembered from first learning the form.

[kungfujunky]

Fefuchutung-
1. Step back with rt foot, left hand comes up, right hand makes a small counter clock wise circle back to right side.
2. three horizontal rakes.
3. step forward right foot, pull back left hand and arm break with the right.
4. pull with hands, and knee trap with left leg.
5. round house with right leg.
6. step into a cat with left foot forward, jump straight up and kick with left leg(no double kick).
7. step forward right bow, circle block with right hand, strike forward with right hand, stike back with left at same time.
8. double elbow up, double back fist
9. step up and then back with left foot to a right bow.
10. low back kick with left foot, step down, side kick with right.
11. without setting foot down turn, double front kick starting with right foot.
12. land in a left bow, three horizontal rakes.
13. step forward into right bow, chop to the neck with right hand.
14. rake up with right hand, then grab head and smash to the left knee.
15. step into a reverse bow, right hand blocks to the head, left hand strikes down.
16. shift weight to left bow, left hand blocks to the head, right hand punches down with a yell.
17. step up and bow.


other than line 1 and line 3 they are almost the same. again such minor differences it could very well be my instructor who muffed it.

not sure. but very close none the less.

thx for the notes. im going to try that arm break there and see how that feels

[Old Noob]

Hey KFJ, I applaud you having the guts to put yourself out there. With that being said, it's obvious that the CSC group is making some weird changes to their forms. Most obvious is the wavy hands in the tiger and the extra moves added to the tiger and seng mon ta lei.
Here's a written version of them both as I was taught:
Fefuchutung-
1. Step back with rt foot, left hand comes up, right hand makes a small counter clock wise circle back to right side.
2. three horizontal rakes.
3. step forward right foot, pull back left hand and arm break with the right.
4. pull with hands, and knee trap with left leg.
5. round house with right leg.
6. step into a cat with left foot forward, jump straight up and kick with left leg(no double kick).
7. step forward right bow, circle block with right hand, strike forward with right hand, stike back with left at same time.
8. double elbow up, double back fist
9. step up and then back with left foot to a right bow.
10. low back kick with left foot, step down, side kick with right.
11. without setting foot down turn, double front kick starting with right foot.
12. land in a left bow, three horizontal rakes.
13. step forward into right bow, chop to the neck with right hand.
14. rake up with right hand, then grab head and smash to the left knee.
15. step into a reverse bow, right hand blocks to the head, left hand strikes down.
16. shift weight to left bow, left hand blocks to the head, right hand punches down with a yell.
17. step up and bow.
Sorry dont have a vid. I am planning on putting some up. But I hope my written explanation is enough for now. This is how I learned it 20 years ago, and how I still do it to this day.

Yep. This is exactly what I'm getting now. I edited the double front out of my last post. I mis-spoke. I was tought it just as it appears in the quotation. I don't think the differences are that subtle. Up until I saw the elbow/double backfist in the video, I thought I was watching a different tiger form. Maybe the west is changing things a bit. Not a criticism. Just an observation.

[Judge Pen]

i will be videoing pa kua soon. in the same yard lol

i just want it to be more fluid.

the bird form is exactly as i was taught it. it has excellent application for each move. id be curious to see the version you guys do.

it sounds like the differences in fe hu are so subtle that they could easily have just been misremembered from first learning the form.

At lease you didn't put a double-smash in "Se Meng" :D

[kungfujunky]

hahahaha

i wanted to though

:p

[naja]

i have added se meng t'ao lian


i have almost all of the forms recorded from white to 2nd black so i will be adding them intermittently as we go along

thx for the feedback

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9t0XDan0Ls

Wow, several noticeable differences than how EM Mullins teaches it. I don't think the differences are nessecarily a bad thing, just different.

I'm going to try and get a hold of a camera this week and upload my renditions...

[tattooedmonk]

I'm a yellow and have just had this form for about a month so I'm pretty close to it. We also do not do the hand movements prior to the horizontal rakes. After the rakes, we're in LBS. Then it's:

1. Grab with the forward (Left) hand
2. Step through with right leg and break with an underhand right
3. Using both hands pull as you trap with left leg
4. Right roundhouse kick
5. Transistion/block to cat stance (left foot forward)
6. jumping front kick

Without looking at my notes, that's how I remember it.

ONSo, after you bow you just step backwards w/ the right leg into left forward bs and do the three " horizontal" rips???

[tattooedmonk]

Anyone want to share there application for the beginning of the form, just the first three moves after the bow???

[Judge Pen]

So, after you bow you just step backwards w/ the right leg into left forward bs and do the three " horizontal" rips???

Yes. As you step backwards into Left BS with the Left hand extended in a tiger claw strike.

[tattooedmonk]

Yes. As you step backwards into Left BS with the Left hand extended in a tiger claw strike. So, as you step back you just strike forward with the left tiger claw ,are you using it as a deflect/block or a direct/ strike?? To the arm chest or face/ jaw??Are you pulling back with the right tiger claw?? Is this the obvious appl. and do you know of a hidden appl.?? I see the move as three different techniques happening in succession, prior to the three rips.

[kungfujunky]

hey ttm go ahead and post your thoughts here....im a big boy so no worries lol

i think i like the 2 blocks and then grab that i do as opposed to a step back with a claw strike....i like the aggressiveness of the grab and pull strike.

[Leto]

Here's some forms that can be found on youtube.

fei hu chu dong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZWsD9MN7c

si men tao lian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfFt2QVEwVw

If you like them, then I agree! this guy is awesome!
If you don't like them, give this guy a break, he's clearly just experimenting with his camera in his living room...
This guy is me ;)

None of these are exactly as I was taught at CSC, but I decided to change the emphasis of a few things as an experiment, as you can all see. it's the same with all the other forms I filmed. The yang taiji is super fast, because if I did it any slower it would not fit on the camera's memory card (it's not a video camera, but a digital camera which can do short movies).

[naja]

So, as you step back you just strike forward with the left tiger claw ,are you using it as a deflect/block or a direct/ strike?? To the arm chest or face/ jaw??Are you pulling back with the right tiger claw?? Is this the obvious appl. and do you know of a hidden appl.?? I see the move as three different techniques happening in succession, prior to the three rips.

I learned it as a single action. Step back and set the claws, then go into the horizontal rips.

[BM2]

Hey KFJ, I applaud you having the guts to put yourself out there. With that being said, it's obvious that the CSC group is making some weird changes to their forms. Most obvious is the wavy hands in the tiger and the extra moves added to the tiger and seng mon ta lei.
Here's a written version of them both as I was taught:
Fefuchutung-
1. Step back with rt foot, left hand comes up, right hand makes a small counter clock wise circle back to right side.
2. three horizontal rakes.
3. step forward right foot, pull back left hand and arm break with the right.
4. pull with hands, and knee trap with left leg.
5. round house with right leg.
6. step into a cat with left foot forward, jump straight up and kick with left leg(no double kick).
7. step forward right bow, circle block with right hand, strike forward with right hand, stike back with left at same time.
8. double elbow up, double back fist
9. step up and then back with left foot to a right bow.
10. low back kick with left foot, step down, side kick with right.
11. without setting foot down turn, double front kick starting with right foot.
12. land in a left bow, three horizontal rakes.
13. step forward into right bow, chop to the neck with right hand.
14. rake up with right hand, then grab head and smash to the left knee.
15. step into a reverse bow, right hand blocks to the head, left hand strikes down.
16. shift weight to left bow, left hand blocks to the head, right hand punches down with a yell.
17. step up and bow.
Sorry dont have a vid. I am planning on putting some up. But I hope my written explanation is enough for now. This is how I learned it 20 years ago, and how I still do it to this day.


On #10, we didn't have a step down but jumped into the the side kick.

[naja]

On #10, we didn't have a step down but jumped into the the side kick.

I missed that one. We don't have a side-kick in that form. Those are two back-kicks straight into two front-snaps for us......

[tattooedmonk]

I learned it as a single action. Step back and set the claws, then go into the horizontal rips.I learned it as; Bow, block w/ the( L) hand tiger claw , (R) tiger claw comes underneath and grabs the wrist in a circular motion as the (R) leg steps back into (L) side forward BS as the (R) tiger claw pulls back and the L tiger claw strikes forward ..........

[kwaichang]

Stop experimenting and go back to class. What is with all the loose trunk connection and stuff no where near the way I learned it. KC

[tattooedmonk]

I missed that one. We don't have a side-kick in that form. Those are two back-kicks straight into two front-snaps for us......So, instead of a cross behind knee trap kick, side thrust kick, turn to the left, double front snap kick, you do two back kicks into two front snap kicks????

[Leto]

Stop experimenting and go back to class. What is with all the loose trunk connection and stuff no where near the way I learned it. KC

explain "loose trunk connection." feet and upper body not coordinated? too much shoulder movement? That is one thing I see to criticize in these videos. that's part of the point of making them, to get a third person view of what I'm doing. I watch it, and then make adjustments. almost like having a mirror.
They apparently teach things much differently out west than they do in the east, at least in the last decade. I don't think I'm ever going to be able to go back to class. I bounce some ideas off a couple people who practice different styles informally, but they're Okinawan karate guys, so don't have too much input for Chinese methods.

[kwaichang]

Come to Tennessee I will train you. You seem to be trying to generate Fa Jing but without the proper mechanics. I dont know how to say it. You are performing this loose trunk moves through out the form and the finish is a fist not open hand. KC

[naja]

So, instead of a cross behind knee trap kick, side thrust kick, turn to the left, double front snap kick, you do two back kicks into two front snap kicks????

Correct. Not the easiest thing to accomplish, esp. for me. I can only get my two back kicks to about knee height and still pull off the two front kicks. I understand the aim in those two to be to the groin & knee regions..... Hope that's right, cus I sure ain't getting them much higher!!!

[Leto]

Come to Tennessee I will train you. You seem to be trying to generate Fa Jing but without the proper mechanics. I dont know how to say it. You are performing this loose trunk moves through out the form and the finish is a fist not open hand. KC

Thanks for the offer. I don't think I will be able to come to Tennessee anytime soon, though. internet talk will have to do for now. At CSC, they do fei hu with an open hand at the end, at least when I was taught. The elder masters make changes from time to time, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is now taught differently again. As the lower belt forms were getting changed all the time, I don't think it's a big deal to experiment with them by performing things differently. The weird trunk moving you're seeing might be my Okinawan karate coming through, "koshi" hip action generating whipping power. I exaggerate it sometimes. When I was taught, we were lacking any sort of detailed power generating method, so my karate training naturally took over to inform some of the kung fu forms. I still practice my Okinawan kata as well, and it bleeds together sometimes. Sometimes I bleed it together on purpose, to see what I get. It doesn't always work :)

[Shaolin Wookie]

also i went over my notes and this is exactly how i learned it from my instructor at the time....could be a new twist....but ive sat on panels and GMS has watched this rendition of the form and didnt say anything about it?

so maybe it is an accepted change?

OTD......I have never seen it any other way. Some people do the wavy motions (I consider them up blocks/chambering motions for the X-styled strike that follows in the back-step to a left bow stance. BTW....this is one of the forms, if I'm not mistaken, that CSC does differently than SD.

If there is a fault to be laid....LOL...it's with that "keep the vid vault sealed" ideology. I don't think any of us have ever seen a demo from a senior practitioner in the art......EVER. At least, not done at speed. And a form changes 50% when speed comes into the equation. Going from A to B is always easy. It's the "to" in between that changes the form.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Stop experimenting and go back to class. What is with all the loose trunk connection and stuff no where near the way I learned it. KC

Dude, it's comments like these that cause people to clam up when time comes to share vids. Let's not deteriorate into name-calling and insults.

Where's the brotherhood? You'd think you'd have learned kindness with your practice........

His form is exactly like it's done in CSC's in Atlanta. I perform mine a liittle differently (fei hu....and my se meng tao lian is performed way differently than both of theirs, but it's the same form). If it's not like yours, get over it. Maybe you could learn something. We can certainly learn something from you....so, even better yet, post something.:)

The reason we're posting vids is to communicate on a more real level where something could actually be learned. I know, for this thread, it's a real stretch.

[Shaolin Wookie]

explain "loose trunk connection." feet and upper body not coordinated? too much shoulder movement? That is one thing I see to criticize in these videos. that's part of the point of making them, to get a third person view of what I'm doing. I watch it, and then make adjustments. almost like having a mirror.
They apparently teach things much differently out west than they do in the east, at least in the last decade. I don't think I'm ever going to be able to go back to class. I bounce some ideas off a couple people who practice different styles informally, but they're Okinawan karate guys, so don't have too much input for Chinese methods.

I can actually see the karate in your movements. It's as clear as day. Try to be softer, faster, and strike harder. That's all I can say. I can see, in your stepping, what an Okinawan karate teacher I knew and practiced with called "spring-loading the step". From that angle, it's good karate mechanics. I can't say it's bad mechanics for SD, because I've seen TKD and Karate guys adapt SD material to their mechanics and still hit hard. But, alas, it is somewhat incorrect, because you lose the rhythm and movement of the material. BTW, when you do use power, I can see it. Kicks look good. I'll see if I can get se meng tao lian and fei hu chu tung up soon.:)

Man, if I could grow hair like that....LOL.......:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Correct. Not the easiest thing to accomplish, esp. for me. I can only get my two back kicks to about knee height and still pull off the two front kicks. I understand the aim in those two to be to the groin & knee regions..... Hope that's right, cus I sure ain't getting them much higher!!!

Double front snap kicks are a fantasy kick. You don't aim the first kick. It's a fake. You aim the second one at his head. Seriously, nobody in the world can generate power for two kicks in the air, hitting a target with any meat (besiides board breaking.......try it on a heavy bag sometime....LOL). If you hit with the first you don't have room for the second, and even if you did, it'd be just plain dumb because you'd land off balance. The first kick is performed standing mostly to fake and generate power for hte lift-off kick.

[brucereiter]

Here's some forms that can be found on youtube.

fei hu chu dong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZWsD9MN7c

si men tao lian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfFt2QVEwVw

If you like them, then I agree! this guy is awesome!
If you don't like them, give this guy a break, he's clearly just experimenting with his camera in his living room...
This guy is me ;)

None of these are exactly as I was taught at CSC, but I decided to change the emphasis of a few things as an experiment, as you can all see. it's the same with all the other forms I filmed. The yang taiji is super fast, because if I did it any slower it would not fit on the camera's memory card (it's not a video camera, but a digital camera which can do short movies).

good to see your clips ... more sd people should share there practice and exchange ideas with others ...

if i may comment on your tai chi chuan ...

1. hands move with your center (meaning body moves not the arms)
2. study your weight transfer through a whole movement such as brush the knee or fair lady.
3. i think it is good to practice it at various speeds but more important than fast or slow is having your whole body connected and moving everything at once.
4. hip rotation + weight transfer (know the direction of your energy)it is very important.
5. avoid letting your hands move without your body moving
6. continuos movement one posture leads into the next.
7.the more mistakes in a posture the less power
link joints to create power



these are only some of my opinions :-) take it for what its worth and please keep sharing your stuff.

for those of you who have not seen my practice ...
yang "64" section 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynXWQYo5ZFY

chen xinjia section 1 yang 64 section 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvaC2h1X5qw

some push hands practice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0TDZpJMLvM

hsing i beng chuan practice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvAfiEBPegA

hsing i linking form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1fpOAkhIEo

[bodhi warrior]

Here's some forms that can be found on youtube.

fei hu chu dong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZWsD9MN7c

si men tao lian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfFt2QVEwVw

If you like them, then I agree! this guy is awesome!
If you don't like them, give this guy a break, he's clearly just experimenting with his camera in his living room...
This guy is me ;)

None of these are exactly as I was taught at CSC, but I decided to change the emphasis of a few things as an experiment, as you can all see. it's the same with all the other forms I filmed. The yang taiji is super fast, because if I did it any slower it would not fit on the camera's memory card (it's not a video camera, but a digital camera which can do short movies).


While the movements were performed differently than the way I was taught, I did think you had good power and intent.

[BM2]

I missed that one. We don't have a side-kick in that form. Those are two back-kicks straight into two front-snaps for us......

You know, it is not a side kick. I was just thinking about how some put their foot down and always thought that they didn't have the balance to do the back kick. The first is not a back kick as I have seen people do it.

[Leto]

good to see your clips ... more sd people should share there practice and exchange ideas with others ...

if i may comment on your tai chi chuan ...

1. hands move with your center (meaning body moves not the arms)
2. study your weight transfer through a whole movement such as brush the knee or fair lady.
3. i think it is good to practice it at various speeds but more important than fast or slow is having your whole body connected and moving everything at once.
4. hip rotation + weight transfer (know the direction of your energy)it is very important.
5. avoid letting your hands move without your body moving
6. continuos movement one posture leads into the next.
7.the more mistakes in a posture the less power
link joints to create power



these are only some of my opinions :-) take it for what its worth and please keep sharing your stuff.




thanks for your input, these are things I will think about.

I, too, would like to see a demo of some of the basic material from a senior practicioner. The "real" way to perform these forms can't be some big secret that shouldn't be filmed, since they are taught to thousands of new students all over the country every year. Is there really a worry that someone will "steal" the forms?

wookie noticed my si men tao lian was performed a lot differently. The main thing which I did significantly differently than I was taught was that I made the hand techniques relaxed and whipping, rather than rigid chops. Also, my stepping was not in exaggerated low bow stance, but more of a san he/sanchin stance.

The only thing I really did on that performance of fei hu chu dong which was different was I focused on the elbows of the ripping motions instead of the hands, which made it a smaller motion. Also, I made the double arm drop (which was there when I first learned it but removed by the masters a year or so later), the double elbow double backfist move more fluid than normal, getting my back into the action (a little too much on that particular take, IMO). Sort of a wounded tiger feel, because it reminded me of the techniques in the black tiger form.

[Judge Pen]

So, as you step back you just strike forward with the left tiger claw ,are you using it as a deflect/block or a direct/ strike?? To the arm chest or face/ jaw??Are you pulling back with the right tiger claw?? Is this the obvious appl. and do you know of a hidden appl.?? I see the move as three different techniques happening in succession, prior to the three rips.

Not to be trite, but it's all three depending on the situation. When I was a freshly minted yellow, my first teacher taught the application as a simultaneous block and strike (much like short form number 1). That was fine for an introduction but the "block" doesn't make sens from an energy standpoint because its hard to deflect any strike with any real force behind it when stepping straight back--you would want to step back at an angle. It makes more sense to shed a 0 distance techniqe and to create distance while using the claw hand to strike and seperate (like a football stiff arm) In that instance it only makes sense to pull back with the right claw. Actually, the right claw stays in your perimeter, the backward action is from moving your body (you get better leverage that way and you gain momentum and energy to generate more power with the left claw because you are using opposing forces to your advantage).

I can think of a few more twists to this technique, but it's pretty straightforward.

[Judge Pen]

Double front snap kicks are a fantasy kick. You don't aim the first kick. It's a fake. You aim the second one at his head. Seriously, nobody in the world can generate power for two kicks in the air, hitting a target with any meat (besiides board breaking.......try it on a heavy bag sometime....LOL). If you hit with the first you don't have room for the second, and even if you did, it'd be just plain dumb because you'd land off balance. The first kick is performed standing mostly to fake and generate power for hte lift-off kick.

I'll say that if your talking agout jumping and then trowing two kicks in the air in quick sucession, then that's only a fantasy, but that's not where I see the application.

The first kick is where the emphasis should be. If I land that properly, then the second kick is just for fun. The second kick is the back up plan in case the second one misses. If the first one lands, then the second one can be easily changed to a knee to compensate for differences in distances.

[Judge Pen]

You know, it is not a side kick. I was just thinking about how some put their foot down and always thought that they didn't have the balance to do the back kick. The first is not a back kick as I have seen people do it.

We do a back kick down here in Tennessee. I was first taught this form in Virginia and it was the back-trap and back kick. Now after the double elbow, double fist, step up and step back into right bow, we turn and through left back kick (or side kick depending on how your hips turn) and then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.

[Old Noob]

So, after you bow you just step backwards w/ the right leg into left forward bs and do the three " horizontal" rips???

We're taught:

1. Bow
2. Raise right leg, lift hands to shoulder-level in front, and step back into LBS tiger position. Performing that motion seems to create a single downward rake of sorts but it's a little wierd because that first movement is the only 'backward' movement of the form.
3. Then the horizontal rakes, etc., etc.

This post was referring to my notes. So I notice that we have ommitted the counter-clockwise movement of the right claw while sinking into the LBS. After the double elbows/backfist, we do back trap, back kick as JP said they do in VA.

[Judge Pen]

Leto,

Is you SanHe done the was CSC teaches it? Were you doing it with full body tension? You versions of the form are very different then the was I know it.

Kudos for putting yourself out there. That's not easy. I'm not criticizing since any problems with how the form is taught is an issue that doesn't really involve me or you. :)

[naja]

I'll say that if your talking agout jumping and then trowing two kicks in the air in quick sucession, then that's only a fantasy, but that's not where I see the application.

The first kick is where the emphasis should be. If I land that properly, then the second kick is just for fun. The second kick is the back up plan in case the second one misses. If the first one lands, then the second one can be easily changed to a knee to compensate for differences in distances.

That's how it was explained to me. Land the first to the groin or stomach, second to the face if possible. And I would think if you did land the first one, then your forward momentum would be slowed enough to land the second one as well.


EDIT: After giving it some more thought, I can see both applications of it. If I was sparring someone, I could see Wookies interpretation working very well. On the street though, I'm going to try and make both kicks land if possible. Better to try both and miss one, then try only one and miss it.....

[MasterKiller]

I'll say that if your talking agout jumping and then trowing two kicks in the air in quick sucession, then that's only a fantasy, but that's not where I see the application.

The first kick is where the emphasis should be. If I land that properly, then the second kick is just for fun. The second kick is the back up plan in case the second one misses. If the first one lands, then the second one can be easily changed to a knee to compensate for differences in distances.

If you're taling about a double jump kick, I think the first kick is either a feint or used to break-open a block, and the second kick is the power kick.

[Judge Pen]

That's how it was explained to me. Land the first to the groin or stomach, second to the face if possible. And I would think if you did land the first one, then your forward momentum would be slowed enough to land the second one as well.


EDIT: After giving it some more thought, I can see both applications of it. If I was sparring someone, I could see Wookies interpretation working very well. On the street though, I'm going to try and make both kicks land if possible. Better to try both and miss one, then try only one and miss it.....

Have you ever seen a feinted first kick lead to a sucsessfully landed second kick? If so, its very rare. I don't like the idea of feints because it leads to wasted movement and it rarely works against anyone with any experience because they don't over-react to movement. There are tricky fighters out there to be sure, so it may have a place, but for me, if I make the first kick work then great. If it doesn't, you continue to follow through to the next technique.

[Judge Pen]

If you're taling about a double jump kick, I think the first kick is either a feint or used to break-open a block, and the second kick is the power kick.

I see the breaking open the block or forcing a reaction, but I don't like to characterize that as a feint, because feints don't have any real power to them. I will throw kicks at ones guard to force a reaction and open up a subsequent technique (like a double front snap kick) but the first kick has to be thrown with enough power and intent to make them react to it. If it has enough power to do that, then it would work well if it made it through the block and actually hit a target like the groin, bladder or stomach.

[Lamassu]

We do a back kick down here in Tennessee. I was first taught this form in Virginia and it was the back-trap and back kick. Now after the double elbow, double fist, step up and step back into right bow, we turn and through left back kick (or side kick depending on how your hips turn) and then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.

I was taught in Texas that the 'left back kick' you're talking about as a cross step for generating power with the right side kick, which you then swing like a pendulum into the double snap kick.

My old digital camera died on me last week, so I have to get another one and then I'll post vids of me doing Fei Hu Chu Tung and Se Mu Tao Lien.

[Judge Pen]

I was taught in Texas that the 'left back kick' you're talking about as a cross step for generating power with the right side kick, which you then swing like a pendulum into the double snap kick.

My old digital camera died on me last week, so I have to get another one and then I'll post vids of me doing Fei Hu Chu Tung and Se Mu Tao Lien.

No, I'm talking about a full back kick above the waist in height. I was taught the back trap the way you describe by my first teacher.

[Lamassu]

I see the breaking open the block or forcing a reaction, but I don't like to characterize that as a feint, because feints don't have any real power to them. I will throw kicks at ones guard to force a reaction and open up a subsequent technique (like a double front snap kick) but the first kick has to be thrown with enough power and intent to make them react to it. If it has enough power to do that, then it would work well if it made it through the block and actually hit a target like the groin, bladder or stomach.

I think a double snap kick is primarily one of those 'when-the-oppurtunity-presents-itself' kinda thing. I definetly see how the first kick could be used to break open the block, but the second kick is pretty much aimed in the same area and could be blocked as well. The problem with the double snap is that it telegraphs your intent too easily. In the end, the best way to avoid a double snap is with a mere L-step to your opponents outside, and he's suddenly open for a counter.

[Lamassu]

No, I'm talking about a full back kick above the waist in height. I was taught the back trap the way you describe by my first teacher.

???????:confused:

You mean a full back kick with the left leg instead of a cross step?

[Golden Tiger]

then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.


Thats a pure Mst. Mullins variation. A good way to spot someone that has trained down there is to look for any back traps being thrown as full back (side) kicks. This is most apparent in the roads of Hua.

As for the out west variations....they are indeed different. Right, wrong...who's to say. Do what your teachers teaches then once understood, do what works.

[Judge Pen]

Thats a pure Mst. Mullins variation. A good way to spot someone that has trained down there is to look for any back traps being thrown as full back (side) kicks. This is most apparent in the roads of Hua.

As for the out west variations....they are indeed different. Right, wrong...who's to say. Do what your teachers teaches then once understood, do what works.

:D Yes it is. In Hua, you have to have freaky flexibility to actually make the backtrap a back kick that reaches above the waist as you cannot turn your hips toward the direction of the kick. In Fei Hu you can easily turn the hips so the form becomes almos a spinning back kick instead of the back-trap that seems to be done everywhere else.

[Judge Pen]

???????:confused:

You mean a full back kick with the left leg instead of a cross step?

Yes. See GT's very astute observation.

[Judge Pen]

GT,

Speaking of variations, check out this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btKvY6QY3tI


Interesting take on the opening move where this back-trap is located in our version.

[kungfujunky]

ive added tai peng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g00tXwpycOM


but it is a poor vid

i usually am much much lower on stances....ill have to redo a bunch of these this weekend

and ill do tiger how i practice it so you can see the difference

thx for the input!

[tattooedmonk]

Not to be trite, but it's all three depending on the situation. When I was a freshly minted yellow, my first teacher taught the application as a simultaneous block and strike (much like short form number 1). That was fine for an introduction but the "block" doesn't make sens from an energy standpoint because its hard to deflect any strike with any real force behind it when stepping straight back--you would want to step back at an angle. It makes more sense to shed a 0 distance techniqe and to create distance while using the claw hand to strike and seperate (like a football stiff arm) In that instance it only makes sense to pull back with the right claw. Actually, the right claw stays in your perimeter, the backward action is from moving your body (you get better leverage that way and you gain momentum and energy to generate more power with the left claw because you are using opposing forces to your advantage).

I can think of a few more twists to this technique, but it's pretty straightforward.Cool .I agree with your views Good stuff.

I like chin na so, I see it as someone has grabbed your left wrist , the left hand rise, the right hand grabs underneath as you step back and left tiger claw to the arm , face .

I am glad we are having disscussions like this . If they were all like this we would be at a1000 right now.:D

[tattooedmonk]

GT,

Speaking of variations, check out this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btKvY6QY3tI


Interesting take on the opening move where this back-trap is located in our version.I like it because of the control.

[tattooedmonk]

Leto,

Is you SanHe done the was CSC teaches it? Were you doing it with full body tension? You versions of the form are very different then the was I know it.

Kudos for putting yourself out there. That's not easy. I'm not criticizing since any problems with how the form is taught is an issue that doesn't really involve me or you. :)How so?????:D

[brucereiter]

Right, wrong...who's to say. Do what your teachers teaches then once understood, do what works.

with age comes wisdom ... good comment gt ...

[BM2]

We do a back kick down here in Tennessee. I was first taught this form in Virginia and it was the back-trap and back kick. Now after the double elbow, double fist, step up and step back into right bow, we turn and through left back kick (or side kick depending on how your hips turn) and then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.

Yeah, the back trap, back kick is how I was taught too. I never liked it and would do to back kicks instead. But we didn't put our foot down between kicks.

[Leto]

Leto,

Is you SanHe done the was CSC teaches it? Were you doing it with full body tension? You versions of the form are very different then the was I know it.

Kudos for putting yourself out there. That's not easy. I'm not criticizing since any problems with how the form is taught is an issue that doesn't really involve me or you. :)

No, it is not the way I was taught. It is taught with full dynamic tension (until the attack sequence at the end). Another experiment, I was watching the way white crane and other southern styles practice their sanzhan/sanchin forms. Our movements are close to those others, so I decided to try it as a practice of jing instead of a body toughening exercise. I only had tension on the retraction, not the expansion. I was also trying to "feel" it as a crane form, rather than just a supplementary exercise as it tends to be treated at CSC.

[kwaichang]

As a close in tech the back trap is useful I have used it effectively when you trap the knee the opponent goes back or their leg is broken at the knee Then the side or back kick can be thrown I have used it this way. Also the hands can deflect a kick and the leg trap can close followed by the kick if thrown low the kick becomes a sweep at thigh level It works too. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I prefer it Bruce Lee style--gettitng crazy momentum to strike hard and push all the way through.

[Judge Pen]

Back Trap, back kick, its all in the application of the technique and how the situation presents itself. I was taught the form both ways and see pros and cons to each. I like the flow of the back trap to back kick combo, but see issues with accuracy and power generation for the back trap if the opponent is not at short distance. The back kick is more powerful (as a result of having to turn your hips into that kick it becomes a spinning kick actually) which can work at short to medium distances very effectively, but it requires, for a brief moment your back to be turned to your opponent (always a negative on spinning techniques) and its more difficult to do and makes it harder to flow into the second kick. Plus you lose some of the variation in the low/high effect of the trap/kick combo.

So where does that leave me.....?

It leaves me with two techniques as opposed to one that fit right in to the intent of the form. It leaves me with variations that can be used under different circumstances. It leaves me with an "extra" technique that is actually more physically difficult to do. It leaves me with more options. So I don't begrudge these differences (or the fact that I've learned little quirks like this through most of my forms up to 2nd black). I appreciate the differences for what they are and use what seems to work for me under the circumstances.

[Judge Pen]

KFJ,

What's the purpose behind the little hop before the larger jump into the low bird stance? I can see the form in there (as I know it) but there are a ton of little "flairs" or extra movements that I'm not familiar with.

[kungfujunky]

from what i understood it is a gaining space as you trap or double smack an opponents strike coming in...


mainly just gaining space

[Shaolin Wookie]

ive added tai peng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g00tXwpycOM


but it is a poor vid

i usually am much much lower on stances....ill have to redo a bunch of these this weekend

and ill do tiger how i practice it so you can see the difference

thx for the input!

Make sure you finish the technique. I know you're doing it slow, but your arms never reach full striking range. They hit recoil range, but never the contact range. Then, that's probably due to doing it slow to demonstrate the technique for comparison. The way I have it, though, the hands strike in fan finger form a couple of times, but the side hand strike after the first low reverse bow and the kneeling doulbe palm strike to the side are both done with a solid palm formation as are the bird's "holding ball" motions.

[Judge Pen]

Make sure you finish the technique. I know you're doing it slow, but your arms never reach full striking range. They hit recoil range, but never the contact range. Then, that's probably due to doing it slow to demonstrate the technique for comparison. The way I have it, though, the hands strike in fan finger form a couple of times, but the side hand strike after the first low reverse bow and the kneeling doulbe palm strike to the side are both done with a solid palm formation as are the bird's "holding ball" motions.

I havent' decided if that's something KFJ is doing himself or if its taught that way. He did the same thing with Tiger and Leto's videos showed some "shortening" of the technique based on how I know it. It may be that it is practiced that way under the CSC. One of the CSC guys want to enlighten us on that?

[Leto]

I havent' decided if that's something KFJ is doing himself or if its taught that way. He did the same thing with Tiger and Leto's videos showed some "shortening" of the technique based on how I know it. It may be that it is practiced that way under the CSC. One of the CSC guys want to enlighten us on that?

I don't think it's so much taught as a common problem that isn't corrected often enough, at least in tai peng. That form at least should be "big", as it's name. The movements I shortened, like the ripping in fei hu and some in si men, was my own decision and not how it is taught, though maybe it is taught with less extension than you know it. I'd have to see your version to compare to.
In general, in punching and other striking, it is taught to never lock out the elbows. This is to avoid hyperextending the joint when throwing a technique, and avoid getting grabbed and locked or broken after having thrown a technique. This is ingrained into people during basics punching practice, and carries over into the forms. I don't disagree with the premise, I just think it gets exaggerated. In the forms, there are definately points where it is taught that there should be full extension, big movements, and many people have to be reminded over and over, as their basics training has taught them never to fully extend (or there is some predisposition not to do this in most people). This is what I saw in my school, and in the students from other CSCs around the west when we had testing and festivals.

[kungfujunky]

it is taught to not fully extend the arms.

i will do a few more vids this weekend that will better demonstrate some of the power and snap that is commonly used by upper level students when practicing these forms

[Judge Pen]

it is taught to not fully extend the arms.

i will do a few more vids this weekend that will better demonstrate some of the power and snap that is commonly used by upper level students when practicing these forms

I know a couple of guys that I trained with that are now training with the CSC. Both are excellent martial artists. One is very happy with the training. The other isn't and one of the things the second one complained to me about was the "extension" issue. He was showing me some examples from short form that, to me, show a misunderstanding of the maxim "don't lock the elbow for fear of injury".

Hyperextension is bad. It can cause damage to the joint and allow one to leave an extremity exposed to counter-attack. But there has to be a certain degree of extension to create proper alignment between the joints and the bones so that the body supports itself and you can strike with power and not cause injury to the joints. Its a "Goldilocks" effect--two much extension is bad; not enough extension is bad, but proper extension is "just right." I don't know if my friend's training with the CSC is typical, but I would be concerned with injury trying to strike the way he was shown by his teachers.

I'm not saying all of this to be critical as I really lack a foundation into the CSC methods to be pointing fingers. I know, very well, that there is some large inconsistency among the level of instruction in martial arts schools, so I don't know if its one teacher's miss-application or a larger issue (or, in fairness, my friends misunderstanding of his new instruction). I appreciate the sharing of knowledge and ideas with all the SD people and if I disagree with how something is taught, I want to do it congenially. There's two much politics and back-biting going on as it is. :)

[tattooedmonk]

I know a couple of guys that I trained with that are now training with the CSC. Both are excellent martial artists. One is very happy with the training. The other isn't and one of the things the second one complained to me about was the "extension" issue. He was showing me some examples from short form that, to me, show a misunderstanding of the maxim "don't lock the elbow for fear of injury".

Hyperextension is bad. It can cause damage to the joint and allow one to leave an extremity exposed to counter-attack. But there has to be a certain degree of extension to create proper alignment between the joints and the bones so that the body supports itself and you can strike with power and not cause injury to the joints. Its a "Goldilocks" effect--two much extension is bad; not enough extension is bad, but proper extension is "just right." I don't know if my friend's training with the CSC is typical, but I would be concerned with injury trying to strike the way he was shown by his teachers.

I'm not saying all of this to be critical as I really lack a foundation into the CSC methods to be pointing fingers. I know, very well, that there is some large inconsistency among the level of instruction in martial arts schools, so I don't know if its one teacher's miss-application or a larger issue (or, in fairness, my friends misunderstanding of his new instruction). I appreciate the sharing of knowledge and ideas with all the SD people and if I disagree with how something is taught, I want to do it congenially. There's two much politics and back-biting going on as it is. :)This is absolutely correct. I have not studied with the Soards for a few years now but, I never learned it the way it is done now.

I see a great deal of wasted energy, motion and a lack of understanding of basic principles and fundamentals.

Beause most people doing SD are not professionals I think the Soards are afraid to be critical in fear of their students leaving.

This not directed at anyone who posted videos . I give you all props my shaolin brothers, NO MATTER what is said here. :D

[tattooedmonk]

it is taught to not fully extend the arms.

Keyword here is fully. I would say practice on working through a full range of motion and on application drilling the moves with a partner:):cool::D

[kungfujunky]

i do understand the need to extend enough for power generation.

in my 1 step training and sparring i have never heard someone complain i wasnt hitting them hard enough lol

i think this is more a matter of each persons physical makeup. for me i generate a lot of power with the way i punch and strike. i have broken boards with the types of strikes i use without pushing through the board.

i have worked a lot on the principles of snap and power and i believe i do it the way my body dictates.

the motions on the forms are just motions done slowly. it is entirely possible i need to focus on expanding those motions more during my practice of them.

I am all about trying to get better. My size is a bit misleading as i am very fast and flexible. but my size also might give the impression i am not fully striking out as well.

so i will do some more vids this weekend to try and better show exactly how i do this in real speed.

thx for the input everyone!

i cant wait until i get to cross hands and train with some of you.

[Judge Pen]

i do understand the need to extend enough for power generation.

in my 1 step training and sparring i have never heard someone complain i wasnt hitting them hard enough lol

i think this is more a matter of each persons physical makeup. for me i generate a lot of power with the way i punch and strike. i have broken boards with the types of strikes i use without pushing through the board.

i have worked a lot on the principles of snap and power and i believe i do it the way my body dictates.

the motions on the forms are just motions done slowly. it is entirely possible i need to focus on expanding those motions more during my practice of them.

I am all about trying to get better. My size is a bit misleading as i am very fast and flexible. but my size also might give the impression i am not fully striking out as well.

so i will do some more vids this weekend to try and better show exactly how i do this in real speed.

thx for the input everyone!

i cant wait until i get to cross hands and train with some of you.


I considered that about your size as it does conceal the amount of force one can generate with what seems like less motion. That’s a good thing as people will underestimate your actual speed and flexibility.

As far as practicing the technique, I believe in making the movements larger to train in a full range of motion. I think its easier to learn to shorten a movement (as the circumstances dictate) then it is to lengthen it.

A clear example is the difference in one-step sparring technique vs. application. We learn large steps and large movements at first, but the application if much shorter and faster. No one, no matter how physically gifted, can make those large sweeping steps and strikes work in an uncontrolled environment, but learning the larger movements allow one to focus on the principles of hip-rotation, power generation and angled stepping. Once those fundamentals are understood, the application of "one-step" is easier, more fluid, more applicable, and much, much "smaller" in terms of actual movement.

[kungfujunky]

good point!

[brucereiter]

i cant wait until i get to cross hands and train with some of you.

i will be in denver on july 20th ...

[kungfujunky]

serious? i believe that is my test date but if at all possible id like to meet up.

i believe i still have your number so ill give you a call when we get closer to that day.

lmk if thats cool with you

[Shaolin Wookie]

I know a couple of guys that I trained with that are now training with the CSC. Both are excellent martial artists. One is very happy with the training. The other isn't and one of the things the second one complained to me about was the "extension" issue. He was showing me some examples from short form that, to me, show a misunderstanding of the maxim "don't lock the elbow for fear of injury".

I've noticed this, too. I call it SD-itis....LOL. My Longfist teacher taught full extension, and some SD people taught no-extension. They're both extremes of wrong ideas. You have to go to almost full extension, because you have to follow-through with every technique and punch through the target. Plus, some of the forms, especially Jingang Fu Hu Quan, employ grabbing techniques, and you have to reach or you'll literally never reach your target.

SD-itis perturbs me to no end....:D.

I don't think it's taught, so much as people "contract" it from bad demos in-class.

The thing to remember is----your hand isn't the begginning and end of the technique. Your entire arm is. Think of Jingang/Fei Hu chu tung's downward swipes as both strikes and line-clearing motions. Use your entire arm to clear what's in your path, not just the hands and wrist.

[Shaolin Wookie]

i do understand the need to extend enough for power generation.

in my 1 step training and sparring i have never heard someone complain i wasnt hitting them hard enough lol

i think this is more a matter of each persons physical makeup. for me i generate a lot of power with the way i punch and strike. i have broken boards with the types of strikes i use without pushing through the board.

i have worked a lot on the principles of snap and power and i believe i do it the way my body dictates.

the motions on the forms are just motions done slowly. it is entirely possible i need to focus on expanding those motions more during my practice of them.

I am all about trying to get better. My size is a bit misleading as i am very fast and flexible. but my size also might give the impression i am not fully striking out as well.

so i will do some more vids this weekend to try and better show exactly how i do this in real speed.

thx for the input everyone!

i cant wait until i get to cross hands and train with some of you.

Just remember, though, that some motions aren't about speed and snap, but about pulling power (takedown drags), pushing power (especially in tai peng and se meng) and ripping power. Don't conflate the "hyperextension" rule. Wushu guys do straight arm techniques and don't have hyperextension issues. Granted, they don't hit things much, but still.....you get the point. A guy your size would get massive power with more extension.

My expeirence is, your body will tell you when enough is enough, and you'll rarely go beyond what's necessary. But it looks like you pull your techniques prematurely.

When I say bigger motions---bigger circles, longer strikes, etc. Practice them big, apply them small.

[Shaolin Wookie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2UVMjy73qs

Another Jeet Kuen vid online. Clearly the link to our Chie Chien. If Jeet Kuen is explicitly Ying Jow Pai, as I think it is, that's one more style added to the Brown Belt regime--Eagle Claw. The Tiger-style label our Chie Quan has been under is misleading.

I'm betting the source of our MA, being SD, was something like Ching Woo. Granted, not Ching Woo itself, so much as a conglomeration of specialists teaching random things. It's a Bizarre mix presented confusingly by the SD cirriculum. Just look at the basics:

Jeet Kuen-----Eagle Claw
Hai Lung chong---monkey-style staff routine. There are a ****load of monkey techniques in this form. I can literally dress it up and perform it in "monkey" style and you wouldn't bat an eye. You'd see it immediately. We just don't teach it very "showy".
Jingang------some kind of "mountain tiger"
Tai Chi 64----a Taiwanese import of Cheng Man Ching
Tai Peng----an obviously rare style, but one very important to the identity of the original school.....since Hiang specializes in it.
Lian Wu Zhang---the only other parallel to it on the net is TAiwanese (google Su Ke Gang "Kung Fu in the Park"). Some commonalities, but different forms entirely.
San He---southern tension exercises reminiscent of Hakka/ crane stuff.
Short Forms---the foundation of all our techniques, but classic Longfist. Our most karate-like forms, and Longfist's most karate-likee forms as well.
Lohan Quan----some kind of mantis, but who knows what. Definately not Lohan, though.
Ippons---kung fu movements, but presented in Japanese form.



Nevertheless, our crane is very different from the common white crane forms, and our two beginning tigers are unique. The black tiger is comparable to other black tiger demos, excepting the crappy modern shaolin version, which completely sucks....LOL......

I've got a clip of Jingang to upload. It's pretty decent. Hopefully it'll redeem the form after the Dancing Queen video on youtube ruined it...LOL. I can't open it on my computer yet....technical difficulties trying to copy from a digital recorder. I'll post it in a week or two when I have time to mess around with it. Due to my new job's steady hours and overtime, I can get off this seven day schedule I've been working for five years and get my weekends and holidays back....LOL. FREEDOM!!!!

[brucereiter]

serious? i believe that is my test date but if at all possible id like to meet up.

i believe i still have your number so ill give you a call when we get closer to that day.

lmk if thats cool with you

good luck on your test ... give me a call ...

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's the shoulder motion I think the CSC's tiger is trying to get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRlcWwbdP2s

Grandaddy's a little old, so it's not as fluid, but I think the shoulder roll is what's important. The hands just tend to follow the shoulder. How much you want to wave your hands seems inconsequential, IMO. But I kind of roll them with the shoulders and chamber. That's all that seems important.

[MasterKiller]

Here's the shoulder motion I think the CSC's tiger is trying to get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRlcWwbdP2s

Grandaddy's a little old, so it's not as fluid, but I think the shoulder roll is what's important. The hands just tend to follow the shoulder. How much you want to wave your hands seems inconsequential, IMO. But I kind of roll them with the shoulders and chamber. That's all that seems important.

Shoulder rolling like that in forms is usually "jing" training.

[TenTigers]

jeet kuen isn't Ying Jow P'ai, it is a Jing Mo set , but Lau Fat-Man taught at Jing-Mo, so the forms were incorperated into Ying Jow P'ai.

[bodhi warrior]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;869879]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2UVMjy73qs

Another Jeet Kuen vid online. Clearly the link to our Chie Chien. If Jeet Kuen is explicitly Ying Jow Pai, as I think it is, that's one more style added to the Brown Belt regime--Eagle Claw. The Tiger-style label our Chie Quan has been under is misleading.

This form shows alot of similarities to our chie chien.

[mkriii]

Shoulder rolling like that in forms is usually "jing" training.

Are you referring to fa jing as in explosive energy?

[Leto]

Here's the shoulder motion I think the CSC's tiger is trying to get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRlcWwbdP2s

Grandaddy's a little old, so it's not as fluid, but I think the shoulder roll is what's important. The hands just tend to follow the shoulder. How much you want to wave your hands seems inconsequential, IMO. But I kind of roll them with the shoulders and chamber. That's all that seems important.

That is more reminiscent of the black tiger forms than anything I've seen so far. most of the videos out there are shaolin or wudang wushu performance tiger forms.

[Shaolin Wookie]

jeet kuen isn't Ying Jow P'ai, it is a Jing Mo set , but Lau Fat-Man taught at Jing-Mo, so the forms were incorperated into Ying Jow P'ai.


Thanks. I couldn't find any info on it before except as a set list of eagle claw.

[Shaolin Wookie]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;869879]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2UVMjy73qs

Another Jeet Kuen vid online. Clearly the link to our Chie Chien. If Jeet Kuen is explicitly Ying Jow Pai, as I think it is, that's one more style added to the Brown Belt regime--Eagle Claw. The Tiger-style label our Chie Quan has been under is misleading.

This form shows alot of similarities to our chie chien.

Yeah, especially when Jeet Kuen's alternate name is Chie Quan or Che Quan. I don't know much chinese. I assume it's a dialect difference, maybe mandarin/cantonese, or something.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Are you referring to fa jing as in explosive energy?

No. He's talking about the "jing" which is the expressed or mobilized internal power of chi---which is just an energy source/reserve. In essence, it's like a motor that distributes the energy of the fuel tank's potential. But it's not that explosive power. Chi won't circulate by itself, necessarily.

[Shaolin Wookie]

most of the videos out there are shaolin or wudang wushu performance tiger forms.

And they suck ass, too. Shaolin's contemporary stuff is some of the worst martial arts I've ever seen. I'd seriously rather watch a TKD tournament forms competition than watch another modern shaolin demo.

I swear, you pose, you flip, you pose, you flip, you pose, a butterfly twist into a pose..............:rolleyes:. I'm sure it's very hard, but it's incredibly boring.

I always liked that wudang tiger form that's out there by the dude with the headband and the robes. I like his form. He also demos a dragon form.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's a question for our internal guys.

From what I know, you're never supposed to reach a stable horse-stance type of position in Yang Tai Chi. After the opening position with the arm raise, yin and yang separate, in a philosophical way, and they play around during the form. This is why you're never supposed to be even-weighted or stationary (as it's a stagnant position, and your'e always supposed to be moving), especially for applications, because you're supposed to be rooted on one side and not on the other so much. Even where the form reaches cross-hands horse stances, one leg (the left) is substantial, and the other is insubstantial, as in you're about to step with it in another direction, so it doesn't carry quite as much weight and therefore it doesn't qualify as a horse stance. In our first closed hands position, we move behind into another Grasp the Sparrow's Tail directly behind, whereas Cheng Man Ching's original 37 form moves into, I think, an "embrace the dragon" position , or something like that, which is kind of like brushing the knee, and then into Grasp the Sparrow's Tail . Also, on the pigeon-toed stance in between "the fair lady weaves the shuttle", we're keeping the weight mostly in the leg where the hands reset into a holding ball to chamber for the next "fair lady"---the leg which will provide a root so we can step with the other. So, according to this fundamental rule, we never reach an even weighted horse...except for our non-stepping cloud hands.

I'm not sure why we dont step, except for the resetting of the back foot on the slanting position, but I don't see a way to resolve this idea of even-weightedness in this stance. Are you supposed to shift your weight as you rotate the hips and torso, or do you stay in a stable stance. I was directed, not by the Master of the school, but by some sifus, to stay in a horse stance. Am I supposed to weight myself on the left leg if my hands are on the left side, then on the right if my hands are on the right or vice-versa? Were they just recommending something I might know from external studies to give me a reference as a starting point to then hammer out?

If I shift my weight, I'm not talking about a big shift---just the subtle shift that's in the closed-hands position. I have to imgaine that there is an imbalance, and I got a somewhat misleading recommendation for the high ma bu, because we have to pivot out the left foot at the end of cloud hands, shift the weight onto it and sweep around with the back leg, then shift the weight back and move into the single whip. In my wushu footwork drills in Longfist, I was drilled constantly on shifting from a horse in one direction to a horse in the other direction. There's very subtle things going on in that shift--where the weight rests, when to shift the weight, when to turn out the back foot, when to lift it up and set it down, and when to punch. I could do this with the cloud hands horse easily, if it were a horse. But is it a horse?:confused: BTW, my Longfist teacher was the best Tai Chi practitioner I've ever seen in person....granted, I've never seen SM Gary's in person...:D....as I didn't value my Tai Chi enough to take his Tai Chi workshops when they were available :o.

I'm a bit confused on this, and would really appreciate any input.

The other question: When we move from Grasp the Sparrow's Tail into Single Whip, I've often been taught (just like Cheng Man Ching's form) to allow both hands to rotate counter clockwise to face the other direction.

Now, because we were in a right forward bow stance, our feet were wide in that position. We can't really make a complete 180, can we? I was told to move from a bow in one direction to a bow in the other direction, then the hands float down a little as the left foot draws in a little. I have very strong legs, but I can't for the life of me do this without keeping my pelvis aligned with that 150 degree plane or something along that line. I drag my left foot and overweight my right leg and keep it bowed out to light-straining if I do it this way without resetting it. I have to imgaine that you must shift the weight, or, reset the waist at least.

For the sake of application, I prefer SD's version, so long as I can reset the waist and keep it on that 150 degree plane (I really don't know that it's 150--just an estimate). But this means I never really shift my weight completely forward. I'm fine with that, but maybe you guys could explain this better for me.

My feet get crossed if I try the 180 degree rotation (I can do it with a narrower stance, just like I can in anything internal/external, but I really don't want to compromise my stability and root, so I'm trying not to "cheat" the technique.). In Cheng Man Ching's form, as in most Yang, you shift about 150 degrees or so, without turning out the left foot when turning out of the right bow stance. Rather, you turn that 150 degrees or so, and then rest on the left leg, which hasn't rotated. This allows you to reset the right foot a little and get the rotation you need as you then reset your weight on your right foot, and prepare for single whip by chambering the left foot a little before stepping back out into a stable left bow stance.

How am I supposed to do it, in SD's terms? Some of my teachers are female, and their center of balance is different b/c of their hips. For instance, they draw their leg around in the circle reset step after "sealing the hands/closing door" much further than I need to. When I do it their way, I strain my left knee too much because I have to draw my leg in way too far. I asked the Master of the school, and he immediately diagnosed the problem without even thinking...LOL....and fixed my issue. Is this another instance of the difference in female/male balance? Ah........LOL.....the yin and the yang are a biotch.

[Shaolin Wookie]

BTW....this book is an excellent resource for SD Tai Chi practitioners:

http://www.amazon.com/Cheng-Tzus-Thirteen-Treatises-Tai-Chuan/dp/0938190458/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214658838&sr=8-1

[Leto]

And they suck ass, too. Shaolin's contemporary stuff is some of the worst martial arts I've ever seen. I'd seriously rather watch a TKD tournament forms competition than watch another modern shaolin demo.

I swear, you pose, you flip, you pose, you flip, you pose, a butterfly twist into a pose..............:rolleyes:. I'm sure it's very hard, but it's incredibly boring.

I always liked that wudang tiger form that's out there by the dude with the headband and the robes. I like his form. He also demos a dragon form.

The wudang is more interesting, but nothing like ours. I've seen the wudang dragon form, it seems a bit "wushu" to me...I think modern wudang has become a bit like modern shaolin, just not quite as popular.

and the name "jeet kune" is exactly "jie quan" or "chie chien", just from Cantonese instead of Mandarin and whatever dialect GM The speaks.

here's another jie quan, from chin woo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kRCd5PNB2zY

[MasterKiller]

No. He's talking about the "jing" which is the expressed or mobilized internal power of chi---which is just an energy source/reserve. In essence, it's like a motor that distributes the energy of the fuel tank's potential. But it's not that explosive power. Chi won't circulate by itself, necessarily.

No, mark is correct. "Rolling" and "wiggling" can be used to train short, explosive, external power.

[Shaolin Wookie]

No, mark is correct. "Rolling" and "wiggling" can be used to train short, explosive, external power.

It would make sense then for the next strikes. I guess i misinterpreting the many "jings" in Chinese.:o

[Judge Pen]

Wookie,

I'm not an internal specialist, but in tai chi 64, while doing the cloud hands, I slightly shift my weight with the movement. I'll ask my teacher about it next time we work out together.

[kungfujunky]

yes we are not double weighted but shifting our weight from side to side as bruce has stated not far back actually

[Golden Tiger]

I'm not an internal specialist, but in tai chi 64, while doing the cloud hands, I slightly shift my weight with the movement. I'll ask my teacher about it next time we work out together.


While I am neither JP's teacher or an internal specialist, I can add my 2 cents. When the right hand raises (for example) it should start with the shifting of the weight to the right side begining by rotating the knee and hips ever so slightly, to the right, stopping the motion when the hand reaches the apex of the movement. The weight distribution at about 60/40 or maybe even 61/39 if you want to be technical. ;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

The weight distribution at about 60/40 or maybe even 61/39 if you want to be technical. ;)

LOL..........I love body weight percentages. I measure them by how many muscle cramps and twitches I get in my posterior per second.

Thanks. I'm sure they were giving me a rough idea of what I was doing to start me off.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's some info a guy with Jing Mo was kind enough to email me with on the history of Jeet Kuen:

"You are correct that information on this set is very difficult to locate. What information that we have is very little and you more than likely already know.

Chao Lin Ho (Zhao Lianhe) introduced this particular set to the Jing Mo (Ching Wu) curriculum and became part of the standard 10 Jing o sets that is requireed to learn. It is our understanding that this set was originally part of the Mi Tsung style's curriculum. (Mi Tsung was GM Chao's original style). GM Chao learned this set from Zhao Zhilian in Hutou Villiage, Jian County, Hebei Province.

We're sorry that we cannot add any more information on this set. We too are researching for history and this is all we found so far. If you have any aditional information that you like to share, please do. "

[brucereiter]

Wookie,

I'm not an internal specialist, but in tai chi 64, while doing the cloud hands, I slightly shift my weight with the movement. I'll ask my teacher about it next time we work out together.

in my opinion the weight transfer practice in time with your hands is very important.
a basic description is:
weight in r leg / r hand hi l hand lo
weight in center both hands pass at solar plexes.
weight in l leg l hand hi r hand lo

this transition is a continues movement shifting weight from right to left with out stopping

this is how i understand it ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynXWQYo5ZFY

[mkriii]

I don't mean to de-rail the topic but ShaolinWookie, how are the kip ups going? Got it down? Have you tried the no hand kip ups like I had mentioned?

[bodhi warrior]

Anyone know about tim nance from the shaolinlegends website? He has a new sparring video, and was wondering if it be worth a look?

[Judge Pen]

I don't know about the video, but Master Nance has a great understanding on practical applications. I would be interested in seeing the video since I was very impressed with the seminar I had taken from him 4 years ago.

[brucereiter]

Anyone know about tim nance from the shaolinlegends website? He has a new sparring video, and was wondering if it be worth a look?

some of the footage was shared with me a while back and i thought it was done well. worth checking out for sure.

[brucereiter]

I was very impressed with the seminar I had taken from him 4 years ago.

me too! that was a great learning experience ...

[bodhi warrior]

Thanks for the input. I'll probably get it. It's nice to see some SD guys put out some good quality stuff. Can you imagine if Eric Smith put out something? Now that would be a good video!

[naja]

I was wondering about that video myself. I've heard good things about him, but the videos on that sight seem a little, well, cheesy. I was hoping that they would be better than they appeared.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I don't mean to de-rail the topic but ShaolinWookie, how are the kip ups going? Got it down? Have you tried the no hand kip ups like I had mentioned?

It's actually funny. Some days I can do them no problem (with hands), and then other days I can only get to my feet and then fall back down. I can't figure out what in the hell I'm doing wrong when I'm doing it wrong, and what I'm doing right when I'm doing it right:confused::confused::confused:.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's an instructional video, not a full contact cage match....lol...so there is restraint. I can tell you this: I hear that of all you can learn from MAster Nance, his greatest lessons are in very practical sparring techniques and applications, and that he's a wizard at sweeping. Personally, I think his fist looks like a sledge hammer, but then there's a couple of guys in SD that by size and shape alone (Mullins, Nance, Reid, GM The' of course) that I wouldn't want to cross for a billion dollars. Those guys are built like freight trains.

One of the sparring "dummies" :p (just kiddin') is one of my sifus. He's pretty innovative and can pick you apart with his boxing alone.

It'll probably be a pretty sweet tutorial.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Although the guy at Jing Mo said that he thought Jeet Kuen came from Mizhong, a senior of his mentitoned that it came from Erlang Quan.

All in all, the basic conclusion is: Longfist. It's all the same.:) Differentt patterns.

Big whoop. But it's definately not tiger.;)

[shen ku]

sorry had to post something,,,,,,,just couldn't let it die?? how elsa would i know how knox. alt. austin. lex. and all you other SD guys are doing?

[kungfujunky]

Pand Loong Chien for me today!

Woohoo!

[kwaichang]

What is Pang Loong Chien I have heard of Pang Loong Pang but not the other can you describe it ?? KC

[kungfujunky]

hsing yi entwine the dragon straight sword....you havent seen that kc?

you have to have seen it.

pm me my friend and lets compare notes.

oh and i passed my test under the Grandmaster. thx to all who sent me well wishes!

[brucereiter]

KFJ & KC
I believe the correct name is:
Hsing Ie Panh Lung Chièn
Hsing Ie Entwine of the Dragon Sword

Just my 2¢
OTD

i remember sin the saying it was "xin" yi not "xing" yi. my chinese is bad but that is a slightly different art than "xingyiquan/hsingichuan ...

[kungfujunky]

otd thx for the correction...and actually bruce in hearing the history/background he said it was xin but then was changed to xing.....

i was unclear why the change as i was exhausted after learning the form and was only half present haha

great form with some excellent footwork!

[peace&love]

I hope everyone is doing well today. I have read and studied info found along this thread as well as many others found in the Kung Fu Magazine Forums. I have always found this particular thread fascinating. Recently, it appears this thread has a greater concentration on technique and discussions related to the actual practice of kung fu. I hope this continues. When I first read through this thread, I saw mostly individuals being hateful and egotistical. Now that comment does not include those that were being humorous in good fun about some of the question marks behind Shaolin Do. Hopefully, good discussions on technique, history, and self discovery with the help of others will continue. I'm looking forward to it and hope that I am welcomed.

[Old Noob]

I hope everyone is doing well today. I have read and studied info found along this thread as well as many others found in the Kung Fu Magazine Forums. I have always found this particular thread fascinating. Recently, it appears this thread has a greater concentration on technique and discussions related to the actual practice of kung fu. I hope this continues. When I first read through this thread, I saw mostly individuals being hateful and egotistical. Now that comment does not include those that were being humorous in good fun about some of the question marks behind Shaolin Do. Hopefully, good discussions on technique, history, and self discovery with the help of others will continue. I'm looking forward to it and hope that I am welcomed.

This thread has been around for a while and is definitely in one of its better, more mature, phases. Welcome.

[BM2]

This thread has been around for a while and is definitely in one of its better, more mature, phases. Welcome.

Then I start posting again:p HA! So much for the better, more mature phase;)

[Old Noob]

Then I start posting again:p HA! So much for the better, more mature phase;)

You probably qualify for the "mature" part, at least by some definitions don't you?:D

[peace&love]

Has anyone been to a seminar or seminars by Sin The? Is so, what are the reviews? I have been to seminars by other teachers and they are sort of hit or miss. Most of the ones I have been to do not provide a recording of the form, etc., and since my memory is not that great in regards to these things, I tend to lose the material. Despite that, I do usually enjoy them because I can pick up a technique or application that I was not aware of before.

[Judge Pen]

Has anyone been to a seminar or seminars by Sin The? Is so, what are the reviews? I have been to seminars by other teachers and they are sort of hit or miss. Most of the ones I have been to do not provide a recording of the form, etc., and since my memory is not that great in regards to these things, I tend to lose the material. Despite that, I do usually enjoy them because I can pick up a technique or application that I was not aware of before.

I have attended several seminars by GMT. They usually do include a recording which is good because GMT usually is on a pretty tight schedule and its hard to retain a form in the 6 or 8 hours he spends teaching a seminar. At least with my teachers, they spend more time with GMT learning the form, the underlying principals and training methods and applications. They will then will scheudle several review classes to review the form and go over the training methods, principlas and applications that are not always touched on to any great degree during the one day seminar.

[mkriii]

Has anyone been to a seminar or seminars by Sin The? Is so, what are the reviews? I have been to seminars by other teachers and they are sort of hit or miss. Most of the ones I have been to do not provide a recording of the form, etc., and since my memory is not that great in regards to these things, I tend to lose the material. Despite that, I do usually enjoy them because I can pick up a technique or application that I was not aware of before.

Are you familiar with Shaolin Do? Have you ever mentioned SD to someone in Chinese martial arts that doesn't do SD? SD is not for everyone. Some have qustioned its legitamacy. I think that you should go check them out and determine for yourself. It all depends on what your looking for. SD might be what your looking for. Decide for yourself. Don't listen to what others say. Sin The' and SD have been around for a very long time so there must be something there worth while to learn. I personally don't do SD but i know some people that do and they like it.

[Judge Pen]

Are you familiar with Shaolin Do? If your familiar with SD then you wouldn't even be asking that question. Have you ever mentioned SD to someone in Chinese martial arts that doesn't do SD? If you have then you know what kind of reaction they gave you. Thats probably the same reaction you would give if you went to a seminar by "grandmaster" The'

There went the maturity level.... and Mark's hollow promise to be polite.

[Old Noob]

Are you familiar with Shaolin Do? If your familiar with SD then you wouldn't even be asking that question. Have you ever mentioned SD to someone in Chinese martial arts that doesn't do SD? If you have then you know what kind of reaction they gave you. Thats probably the same reaction you would give if you went to a seminar by "grandmaster" The'

Everyone has been so nice to you here lately, offering to help with your back problems and to train with you. Why are you flaming? I haven't heard anyone who has seen Sin The live criticise him. If you have a particular criticism from your own experience, share it. Otherwise, you needn't spread hate.

[Old Noob]

There went the maturity level.... and Mark's hollow promise to be polite.

Yep. I'm starting to feel some real irony in BM2's timing.

[mkriii]

I didn't say anything bad about SD or Sin The'. How do you know I wasn't implying that the reactions from people were positive? You just assume the worst from me. You know what they say when you assume......you make an arse out of you and me.

[Judge Pen]

I didn't say anything bad about SD or Sin The'. How do you know I wasn't implying that the reactions from people were positive? You just assume the worst from me. You know what they say when you assume......you make an arse out of you and me.

Based upon all of your past posts are you going to tell me I'm wrong? Lie to me baby, lie to me!

If you were implying something positive, you wouldn't have put "grandmaster" in quotes.

[Old Noob]

I didn't say anything bad about SD or Sin The'. How do you know I wasn't implying that the reactions from people were positive? You just assume the worst from me. You know what they say when you assume......you make an arse out of you and me.

Hypothoses based on the outcome of multiple hundreds of experiments are not assumptions. Your past behavior informs our hypothses.

How are you JP? I'm still working hard. Low on the totem pole, I'll be testing to blue next week.

[Judge Pen]

Hypothoses based on the outcome of multiple hundreds of experiments are not assumptions. Your past behavior informs our hypothses.

How are you JP? I'm still working hard. Low on the totem pole, I'll be testing to blue next week.

Good luck on your test.

I've been doing well. I won my last jury trial, but the jury may have employed a quotient verdict so we'll see if it holds up.

Hadn't had much time for training, but I'm hoping things will slow down a bit and I can get back into shape. Right now, I'm just trying to maintain what I have.

[mkriii]

Have I not been polite and nice lately? Did I not give advice on how to do no handed kip ups to ShaolinWookie? I've been contributing positively. So no I did not mean for that to come across as a insult.

[Judge Pen]

Have I not been polite and nice lately? Did I not give advice on how to do no handed kip ups to ShaolinWookie? I've been contributing positively. So no I did not mean for that to come across as a insult.

My mistake then.

So how was "grandmaster" Ng?

[Old Noob]

Good luck on your test.

I've been doing well. I won my last jury trial, but the jury may have employed a quotient verdict so we'll see if it holds up.

Hadn't had much time for training, but I'm hoping things will slow down a bit and I can get back into shape. Right now, I'm just trying to maintain what I have.

Hope your verdict sticks. In my reserve capacity, I'm assisting with a non-capital murder Court-martial next week. I'll get back to town just in time to go to the kwoon for the test. Busy is right. Thanks for the well-wishes.

[mkriii]

My mistake then.

So how was "grandmaster" Ng?

He was good. He was at work at the pharmacy. He was very busy with customers so my conversation with him consisted of him talking in between customers and him filling prescriptions but he seems to be doing good. He was telling me about why he didn't have the annual Mountain Fellowship Tournament. Frank S. supposedely took the pre-registration money and then didn't have the tournament. Dr. Ng and Frank had the parting of the ways because of this. Dr. Ng said he would start the tournament again in a few years after all that has settled down. I had been trying to get in touch with my teacher (Dufresne) and Dr. Ng told me the Dufresne was in China. I had not known that. That was about the extent of it. I had gone up to that part of Ky on business so I thought I would just stop in on the spurr of the moment to say hello.

[Judge Pen]

Are you familiar with Shaolin Do? If your familiar with SD then you wouldn't even be asking that question. Have you ever mentioned SD to someone in Chinese martial arts that doesn't do SD? If you have then you know what kind of reaction they gave you. Thats probably the same reaction you would give if you went to a seminar by "grandmaster" The'

was revised to:


Are you familiar with Shaolin Do? Have you ever mentioned SD to someone in Chinese martial arts that doesn't do SD? SD is not for everyone. Some have qustioned its legitamacy. I think that you should go check them out and determine for yourself. It all depends on what your looking for. SD might be what your looking for. Decide for yourself. Don't listen to what others say. Sin The' and SD have been around for a very long time so there must be something there worth while to learn. I personally don't do SD but i know some people that do and they like it.


I appreciate the revisions and the second post is fair, but really post whatever you feel like. If I don't like it, I'll call you out. I would expect the same from you.

I'm glad that grandmaster Ng seemed well. How's the back coming along?

[mkriii]

The back is healing really good. The inscision is still healing (scabbing). The doctor wants me to wait til October before going back to training. He said I could do tai chi if I wanted. The doctor (actually the Physicians Assistant) studied SD under John Fernandez here in Lexington on U.K.'s campus back in the late 70 and 80's at the U.K. Armery. So he is familiar with what all martial arts involves. Do you know of John Fernandez? It's funny because his daughter has a black sash under Dr. Ng but her dad has a black belt under GM The'. Fernandez's daughters name is Mary The' Fernandez, she was named after Sin The' because J. Fernandez and GM Sin were such good friends. For some reason the two had a arguement or something and Fernandez left Sin The'. Fernandez now claims to teach Shaolin Ryu Karate instead of Shaolin Do. Do you know anything about this? I actually insure J. Fernandez's car and home but have never asked about it. I didn't want to come across as nosey, even though I am......LOL. :)

[MasterKiller]

He was telling me about why he didn't have the annual Mountain Fellowship Tournament. Frank S. supposedely took the pre-registration money and then didn't have the tournament. Dr. Ng and Frank had the parting of the ways because of this. Dr. Ng said he would start the tournament again in a few years after all that has settled down.

Honestly, bro. Don't you think you should keep discussions like this between you and your Sigung private?

[Judge Pen]

The back is healing really good. The inscision is still healing (scabbing). The doctor wants me to wait til October before going back to training. He said I could do tai chi if I wanted. The doctor (actually the Physicians Assistant) studied SD under John Fernandez here in Lexington on U.K.'s campus back in the late 70 and 80's at the U.K. Armery. So he is familiar with what all martial arts involves. Do you know of John Fernandez? It's funny because his daughter has a black sash under Dr. Ng but her dad has a black belt under GM The'. Fernandez's daughters name is Mary The' Fernandez, she was named after Sin The' because J. Fernandez and GM Sin were such good friends. For some reason the two had a arguement or something and Fernandez left Sin The'. Fernandez now claims to teach Shaolin Ryu Karate instead of Shaolin Do. Do you know anything about this? I actually insure J. Fernandez's car and home but have never asked about it. I didn't want to come across as nosey, even though I am......LOL. :)

I've heard of him, but my understanding is that those events happened so long ago, and I am so far removed from it, that I don't know anymore than what you have posted. There may be some "old timers" here that know more, but choose to not say anything because of the belief that internal politics should be kept internal.

[Judge Pen]

Honestly, bro. Don't you think you should keep discussions like this between you and your Sigung private?

Like I said, internal politics should be kept internal.

[mkriii]

Honestly, bro. Don't you think you should keep discussions like this between you and your Sigung private?
No not really because it has already been posted a while ago by someone else. I was just validating what had already beed said. Someone had mentioned Frank's name about 8 months ago and this situation. Not anything new. Plus I think that GM Ng would want people to know that this isn't something that he condones and that he has seperated himself from Frank's actions. GM Ng has always preached "don't cheat people" and he has always preached about being honest and humble.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Has anyone been to a seminar or seminars by Sin The? Is so, what are the reviews? I have been to seminars by other teachers and they are sort of hit or miss. Most of the ones I have been to do not provide a recording of the form, etc., and since my memory is not that great in regards to these things, I tend to lose the material. Despite that, I do usually enjoy them because I can pick up a technique or application that I was not aware of before.

I like seminars, but...then....caveat emptor. I've attended most of the seminars I was interested in. I don't necessarily think that learning every seminar form is in any way beneficial to you, but sometimes what you think will least benefit you will in the end benefit you best. I discarded some of the seminar material I learned due to disinterest, but then, some of it is my daily routine, even at the cost of curriculum/testing-based material. For instance---monkey. Ground monkey and Crafty Hands are my daily routines, and I work their techniques on the bag most nights and play with the postures, etc. When I spar now, it's generally from a monkey philosophy. And that's not in the main cirriculum, so whatever understanding I have of it is a rare commodity in the system and gives me an upper hand. Also, Crazy Mad Drunk. Another good one for me. I discarded Entwine the Dragon Bo---not interested in it, and I recently came to appreciate the Golden Leopards some, after working with them for speed and paw-hooking type of opening moves. These forms made no sense to me until I started to hook with the leopard's paw. It also gave me the "feel" of the leopard style. Double Daggers is a staple, since it was my first one. But I did let some others go, simply for the fact they weren't really for me. Still, sometimes you'll find appreciation for them after a while. The schools in Atlanta will teach the form (Either GM Sin or other very high rank like Senior Master), provide detailed notes, usually with hte names of each move in chinese with Sin The's translations, also pressure point charts, etc, and then provide a step-by-step kind of DVD. I'm sure this is city/school/SD or CSC specific, so it'll change where you are at. My advice: if you've got some spare cash, they're worth their while. Just know that you're paying for a form, not the understanding of it. You'll really have to work at it, and hope your teachers have had it longer and can give you insight.

For the most part, you'll learn the basic movements of a form in a seminar, the strikes, the angles, and some basic apps. Although, as much as I wish someone proficient in the form you're learning would run it through in a demo/performance fashion to help get in your head what you're doing, and the tempo/mannerisms you should employ, you'll never get one, so far as I can tell. There's the downside of that, and then there's the upside. The downside---it's harder to feel it out for yourself. The upside---you don't have to imitate anyone. You get to make the form work for you. When you get used to it, you'll eventually say----it's all performance, who cares. The thing is, can you use the angles, the strikes, etc. and make them work and hit hard? That's all that counts. The system just isn't a performance-based system.

Unfortunately, you won't get lots of applications in a seminar, unless its specifically an application-based seminar, and I don't think GM Sin does those anymore for seminars. Generally, one of the Atlanta schools, or all, will have a follow-up seminar or two where you'll work applications. This is the strength of Atlanta's program. I don't know about others. GM Sin probably only teaches application-based seminars for the high up masters. So, I guess you could say, in a way, you don't learn anything in the seminar itself....LOL....but if you're halfway competent, you'll feel out most the applications for yourself without much trouble, and most of the students at higher rank will have plenty of insights. If you know....note, not just remember....your ippons and techniques, both external and internal (although I don't like internal applications, to be honest), finding an application for any movement is veeery easy. Is it the right one? Well, does it work? I recently has a session with a Sifu in Atlanta who taught some applications for basic sparring techs 1-8 that were quite eye-opening and devastating. Simple techniques, very useful. Many techs for each one. Did he learn them from someone else? Probably not. But they work, and they're just experienced based combat techs, fast, and very economical. Probably not the kind of fancy apps you'd imagine, but certainly enough to send your sparring partner home with a headache and sore ribs....LOL....or crawling off the floor.

Apps are never really that hard to figure out. For instance...in Crafty Hands, there's a hook kick/ridge hand combination. Could be two strikes, could be hooking a right lead leg with a ridge hand push into a hook sweep....yadayadayada....it all works if it works. Mostly, find someone and play with hte material, use it on a heavy bag, think about it, and ask everyone if they practice it a lot to find what you need, and then employ it in sparring. But ask good practitioners, not crappy ones.;)

Seminars are fun, as are most seminars. You just can't expect to walk in and walk back out saying : "Great, now I have 2nd Golden Leopard. I can't wait for the 3rd."

LOL.....I hear people say that kind of thing. You don't learn anything in a seminar, per say. You've really only learned a pattern. There's a lot more to fill in (it should take at least a year or two to make sense enough to employ in sparring with regular success, unless you're really good at it and it fits you exactly). I can't spar with leopard after two years of both first two roads, but I employed monkey the week of and kept the upper hand. So......so it goes.

[peace&love]

I really enjoyed your insights and views. Thank you. I have always been able to take something from a seminar even if it was only one technique for application I could use in the future. I went to a seminar on a upper level Hung Gar Shaolin fist set (Siu Lum Kuen) and it was great. Unfortunately, it has been over 2 years ago and all I remember is a snake strike combination that I find to be a great self defense application when directed to the throat. I wish that I had a DVD of this seminar because I feel that there was a lot to be used in application for sparring and self defense. Also, it was a great workout. It sounds like from the feedback I have received that Sin The seminars provide a DVD copy which is a great reminder tools. I believe more instructors are getting into this now that reproduction costs for such items are reasonable and digital cameras are more affordable too.

Another thing I like about seminars is seeing the much more experienced practitioners show technique. You can really see the difference in years of training and it gives me something to strive for.

I really appreciate all those that replied to my question. I think a discussion on seminars would be a great one and a good way to share knowledge and experiences. I also realize that some are very partial to their own style, techniques, and heritage. That is human nature. But everyone please keep in mind that if someone is successful for a number of years and continues to train and share knowledge, they probably are doing something positive for the martial arts community. I had an instructor once that really had a negative attitude towards another martial artist in the community. I had met this person and thought he was one of the nicest people I have ever met. He even went on to say how well we were trained and complimented my instructor, even though my instructor said negative things about him. When that former instructor discontinued teaching, I decided to study a bit with this person because he was so positive to me in the past. The bottom line is treat people how they treat you, not someone else. I apologize for lecturing, but it seemed my simple question brought out some negativity that led me to stay away from this thread for so long. Once again, I would love to hear about others experiences with seminars. Even great teachers have bad seminars and average teachers have a gift to turn it on for a large group sometimes. Seminars for me are a way to obtain info I otherwise would probably not get or a method to experience other styles and teaching methods which I find interesting and entertaining.

[Toby]

The back is healing really good. The inscision is still healing (scabbing). The doctor wants me to wait til October before going back to training. He said I could do tai chi if I wanted.That's funny because the "internal" system I do is way, way harder on the body than the "external" system.


For instance---monkey. Ground monkey and Crafty Hands are my daily routines, and I work their techniques on the bag most nights and play with the postures, etc. When I spar now, it's generally from a monkey philosophy.I find this funny given your handle :D .

[Shaolin Wookie]

and average teachers have a gift to turn it on for a large group sometimes. Seminars for me are a way to obtain info I otherwise would probably not get or a method to experience other styles and teaching methods which I find interesting and entertaining.

Yup. When you go to a seminar, they'll always tell you that "this is going to be a little bit different from what you do".....especially if it's a different school. But 9 times out of 10, it's the same exact thing. Bow stances, horse stances, kick and punch. The only difference? Personal flair in performance...LOL.

[Baqualin]

That's funny because the "internal" system I do is way, way
harder on the body than the "external" system.

And your point......Oh, I see, your external system is weak

I find this funny given your handle :D .

Toby's a pretty cute name too....I bet you have freckles

[Toby]

And your pointThe implication was the doctor was saying mkrii could do tai chi because it wouldn't be too strenuous while mkrii was recovering. My point is the "internal" system I do would actually be harder on the body than the "external" stuff I do, so it would be the thing I should actually avoid while recuperating.

[Judge Pen]

The implication was the doctor was saying mkrii could do tai chi because it wouldn't be too strenuous while mkrii was recovering. My point is the "internal" system I do would actually be harder on the body than the "external" stuff I do, so it would be the thing I should actually avoid while recuperating.

What type of internal training do you do? We have more vigorous internal training as well, so it depends. I think that yang style tai chi can be trained (at least the form not the applications and sparring) while recovering from injury or surgery. It was instrumental in the therapy for my ACL repair. Now, I wouldn't be doing the Hsing Ie animals during that time or the live training to Hua To's five animal play, so it depends.

BQ, I have freckles. Does that make me cute too?

[Baqualin]

The implication was the doctor was saying mkrii could do tai chi because it wouldn't be too strenuous while mkrii was recovering. My point is the "internal" system I do would actually be harder on the body than the "external" stuff I do, so it would be the thing I should actually avoid while recuperating.

Just in a pick at you mood this morning;)
There's a lot to internal systems.....most have healing aspects...... Yang style Tai Chi and classical (original form as some call it) Pa kua are very healing....the latter has done wonders for my back. Hsing I & Chen thats a different story.
BQ

[Baqualin]

What type of internal training do you do? We have more vigorous internal training as well, so it depends. I think that yang style tai chi can be trained (at least the form not the applications and sparring) while recovering from injury or surgery. It was instrumental in the therapy for my ACL repair. Now, I wouldn't be doing the Hsing Ie animals during that time or the live training to Hua To's five animal play, so it depends.

BQ, I have freckles. Does that make me cute too?

My Ex wife had freckles and I still think she's cute.:)

[Toby]

What type of internal training do you do?


There's a lot to internal systems.....most have healing aspects...... Hsing I. While it's very much a healthy system (in terms of how much the body is worked both inside and out), I'd never call it a healing system.

[mkriii]

The implication was the doctor was saying mkrii could do tai chi because it wouldn't be too strenuous while mkrii was recovering. My point is the "internal" system I do would actually be harder on the body than the "external" stuff I do, so it would be the thing I should actually avoid while recuperating.

Baqualin.......I think what the doctor was meaning was it wasn't going to be like kicking or punching a solid object like a heavy back or sparring that could possibly jar and damage the fused vertibrae. Baqualin, you might know this doctor (actually the P.A.. He studied SD here in Lexington back in the 80's. I can't remember his first name but his last name is Kibble and he is at the U.K. Clinic. Do you know or remember him?

[Baqualin]

Baqualin.......I think what the doctor was meaning was it wasn't going to be like kicking or punching a solid object like a heavy back or sparring that could possibly jar and damage the fused vertibrae. Baqualin, you might know this doctor (actually the P.A.. He studied SD here in Lexington back in the 80's. I can't remember his first name but his last name is Kibble and he is at the U.K. Clinic. Do you know or remember him?

Hey Mark,
I new what he meant....wasn't questioning you....I have a Tai Chi for the back....but you should wait until your healed...then start your rehab.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Hsing I. While it's very much a healthy system (in terms of how much the body is worked both inside and out), I'd never call it a healing system.

Neither did I.......there's a difference between a system and aspects of a system........I don't look at Hsing I as healing..... I spoke only of certain types of Tai Chi & Baqua
BQ

[peace&love]

It's great just to hear fellow martial artists talk about the importance of internal training. You won't find that conversation in most karate or Take Your Do schools. Internal arts is one of the great things about kung fu.

All one can really do is what the doc tells you on a surgery recovery, especially if it is sport related. I have had two major injuries from training and I specifically went to a sports med physician. On one of the injuries I had major shoulder surgery, metal, bicep reattachment and all. MA training was not the initial cause of this but just aggravated the injury over time like any sport activity would.

Anyway, I worked on stances and Chi Kung exercises for 6 months while I had this contraption/sling on my shoulder The doc would not let me have any contact on the shoulder area for that amount of time. The important thing is to have some kind of activity to keep from getting in the dumps. It is tough for us martial artists to be told we can't do something and even tougher knowing we can't to it to our full potential.

I can see where the internal arts can be harder on the body. When I practice I Chin Chings, I sweat like crazy. This could be due to the body just getting rid of its impurities though. My opinion is to do what you can and not over do it, but most importantly, listen to your doc and physical therapist. Good luck to you mkriii. I know it is frustrating since I been there.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I say, if you always overdo it, there won't be anything you can't do.

[kwaichang]

Over do is the primary cause of over training syndrome and injury it is better to train daily at 65 to 80 % than 100% all the time of course some say one cant train at 100% at all. One can an always do more. KC

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I've been getting into this guy named Porf Jou lately. Not as much to learn his style, but to learn his Taoist influenced philosophy on martial arts. As he says in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4FT_ETpcOA
If you flow the form with little power 1000 times, then you only need to use full power but once to master it. I tried doing that in this video of me practicing in the park: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao2VIZvWj94
I didn't flow it correctly at least once or twice, and I was all self conscious after some old Chinese lady was making fun of me ("oh, are you doing kung fu, hiya!!"), so it's not my best performance.

[lkfmdc]

This thread is amazing... it will break 10,000 posts I guess?

[MasterKiller]

Over do is the primary cause of over training syndrome and injury it is better to train daily at 65 to 80 % than 100% all the time

Which is why steroids are so popular among professional athletes.