Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Shaolin Wookie]

This thread is amazing... it will break 10,000 posts I guess?


Which is why steroids are so popular among professional athletes.

By these powers combined, we are Captain Planet!

This thread is on steroids.

[Leto]

By these powers combined, we are Captain Planet!

This thread is on steroids.

Captain Planet!

http://thatvideosite.com/video/2341

[mkriii]

Over do is the primary cause of over training syndrome and injury it is better to train daily at 65 to 80 % than 100% all the time of course some say one cant train at 100% at all. One can an always do more. KC


I agree. It doesn't do you any good to go all out and train 100% if your injured most of the time. I'd rather train at 75% or 80% and not be injured than to train at 100% and be injured with a sprain or torn muscle most of the time. It just doesn't do you any god.

[mkriii]

Which is why steroids are so popular among professional athletes.


Yes steroids are quite popular among pro athletes and amateur athletes as well. I just won't resort to using them. Its not worth it legally or from a health standpoint. I've known a few people that did them and you could tell when they were cycling. They were all bloated and looked all puffy, then in three or four weeks they had shrunk back down to normal size for a few weeks. They would constantly fluctuate like this. And they would work out on weights like a mad man.

[mkriii]

Come on people lets get this thread goin', someone post something. We want to add some more pages to this thread don't we?

[kwaichang]

HGH is the way to go or precursors to testosterone this will allow the body to produce increased amounts of testosterone and higher levels of performance. Look at Rocky 6 KC

[BentMonk]

HGH is the way to go or precursors to testosterone this will allow the body to produce increased amounts of testosterone and higher levels of performance. Look at Rocky 6 KC

I really hope you're kidding. IMO it's better to train as close to naturally as possible. All of the "performance enhancing" stuff out there I see as the same as nitrous on a race car. Sure you might go really fast for a while, but eventually the engine will blow. Without all the "extra" stuff you might have to work harder, and you might not go as fast as soon as you'd like, but you'll be around for a lot more races. :D

[themeecer]

Come on people lets get this thread goin', someone post something. We want to add some more pages to this thread don't we?
Ok .. you suck and your avatar is gay. :D

[shen ku]

good to see you around meecer, how is everything in your home town? haven't made it over there in a little while,,,,

[kwaichang]

you apparently know little about the endrocrine system KC

[pdf108]

Wudang taoist Gongfu, one important school of Chinese Martial Arts has a very long history. Wudang Gongfu, incorporating ways to stay healthy and prolong the lifespan as well as collecting the skills to fight, is not only a special school of Martial Arts, but also a whole system of Martial Arts theory.

Wudang Gongfu, as a culture, takes root in the fertile soil of thousand-year long Chinese civilization, containing profound Chinese philosophical theories, combined twith the raditional notions of Taiji, Yinyang, Five-element, Eight-diagram into boxing theories, boxing skills, exercise and attack policies, tantamount to studying the laws of life activities. So we can say that Wudang Gongfu is the crystallization of Wudang Taoism in the process of studying life.

http://www.daoistkungfu.com

[MasterKiller]

HGH is the way to go or precursors to testosterone this will allow the body to produce increased amounts of testosterone and higher levels of performance. Look at Rocky 6 KC
Doesn't HGH also make your heart grow bigger?

[themeecer]

good to see you around meecer, how is everything in your home town? haven't made it over there in a little while,,,,

Yeah I get bored of the same kind of arguments over and over. I normally pop back on here when I come looking for info. I have some students having problems with a simple jumping front kicks and was looking for possible suggestions on here. They can jump and they can kick ... but combining them is a different story.

Things in Somerset are great. They are tearing down some cool old buildings downtown to make room for a judicial building. I hate to see the buildings go. We moved our school into a new building with tons more room. Once summer is over we may be able to go through a whole workout without a student almost white eyeing from the heat. :D

You have the advantage though, I don't remember you by your screen name.

[mkriii]

One thing about this forum is there are so many people on here from Ky. I wonder why that is. On other martial art forums the people are more diversified meaning they are spread out over the country and even in the U.K. Does anyone have an idea of why this is? :D

[Judge Pen]

One thing about this forum is there are so many people on here from Ky. I wonder why that is. On other martial art forums the people are more diversified meaning they are spread out over the country and even in the U.K. Does anyone have an idea of why this is? :D

Well, there's a lot of SD people on this website, and KY is the birthplace of SD. Some notables aside, most people here are respectful of the people that practice SD whether they agree with it or not; so this is a good place for SD people to interact and share information with other CMA people.

[BentMonk]

you apparently know little about the endrocrine system KC

I was just giving my opinion on using HGH and other things like it. IMO Nick Nolte, Stallone and others who use that stuff don't look healthy. I'm a live and let live kind of guy. I just don't think it's a good idea to do that much modification to an engine we didn't design. My opinion has nothing to do with my knowledge of the endocrine system, which doesn't go much beyond knowing the fact that you spelled it wrong. :D

[shen ku]

oh meecer you know who i am ,,, you should really just think alittle about it, maybe i shouldn't tell you and see if you can?? heres a hint, we have trained in the same (basicly) town? in the same art? both under a master? but not the same school? does that help? oh, and we always say we are going to get together,or email more or anything to keep in touch, but we never seem to do it?

[kwaichang]

Sorry ENDOCRINE is correct my type O . The studies I have read say that HGH does not cause athletic heart or enlarged heart. HGH is found in the human body the problem is it starts to decline in the early 20;s and drastically by 45 I wasnt trying to insult anyone but many talk abnout things they dont have knowledge of. Things like HGH and precursors to Testosterone are natural thing one can take to promote endurance and muscle growth KC

[BentMonk]

Sorry ENDOCRINE is correct my type O . The studies I have read say that HGH does not cause athletic heart or enlarged heart. HGH is found in the human body the problem is it starts to decline in the early 20;s and drastically by 45 I wasnt trying to insult anyone but many talk abnout things they dont have knowledge of. Things like HGH and precursors to Testosterone are natural thing one can take to promote endurance and muscle growth KC

:D No insult taken. I actually think they should have two divisions in every sport. In one you can use all the performance enhancements that you care to. In the other it's all natural. They do this in auto racing. With all of the enhancements available for the body, it makes sense to do this for athletic competitions as well. We all are the sole owners of the body we're given. I'm a strong advocate for the complete freedom for us to use and maintain it as we will.

[Daedre]

I am a new member on this forum and wanted to ask if anybody knew of any Shaolin-do schools ( Grandmaster Sin The schools) located in the Chicago area. More specivically, Bolingbrook Illinois. I studied in Louisville in the early 80's and received my BB from Master John Price. I have read some of these posts and I think I know some of you. Thanks for the help.

[Kevin Huang]

Even though I'm a traditional kung fu instructor by choice, I consider Shaolin-Do VERY real.

There are people practicing Shaolin-Do all over the world. They derive all sorts of great benefits from it. Shaolin-Do, for the most part, is an ACCESSIBLE martial art that is more graspable to the general public than most traditional old school kung fu (i.e. what I do).

For "reality combat", Shaolin Do accomplishes the same things that other martial arts do. A practitioner of Shaolin Do will have excellent self confidence and physique, both of which keep him from being a target for criminals.

I'd rather see an earnest martial arts enthusiast practicing Shaolin Do than nothing at all.

[kwaichang]

Cool post Kevin very well said. BTW there is a school in Chicago or the surrounding area I believe KC

[Judge Pen]

Even though I'm a traditional kung fu instructor by choice, I consider Shaolin-Do VERY real.

There are people practicing Shaolin-Do all over the world. They derive all sorts of great benefits from it. Shaolin-Do, for the most part, is an ACCESSIBLE martial art that is more graspable to the general public than most traditional old school kung fu (i.e. what I do).

For "reality combat", Shaolin Do accomplishes the same things that other martial arts do. A practitioner of Shaolin Do will have excellent self confidence and physique, both of which keep him from being a target for criminals.

I'd rather see an earnest martial arts enthusiast practicing Shaolin Do than nothing at all.

Thank you for your perspective. What style do you teach?

[tattooedmonk]

Even though I'm a traditional kung fu instructor by choice, I consider Shaolin-Do VERY real.

There are people practicing Shaolin-Do all over the world. They derive all sorts of great benefits from it. Shaolin-Do, for the most part, is an ACCESSIBLE martial art that is more graspable to the general public than most traditional old school kung fu (i.e. what I do).

For "reality combat", Shaolin Do accomplishes the same things that other martial arts do. A practitioner of Shaolin Do will have excellent self confidence and physique, both of which keep him from being a target for criminals.

I'd rather see an earnest martial arts enthusiast practicing Shaolin Do than nothing at all.True that!!!

[Kevin Huang]

I teach "Seng Men" (Monk Fist).

The method I do and the curriculum I teach are probably 100% opposite from USSD. But I've seen Shaolin Do benefit so many people, and I never argue with results.

I'd imagine that most Shaolin Do students would be uncomfortable in my class. I also don know that most of my students have been uncomfortable with Shaolin Do, having shopped it before coming to me. However, that's like saying that one would rather have Sprite instead of Coke.

I'm not from the "all or nothing" school of martial arts that insists that one style has all the superiority and answers. Nor do I believe that there's such thing as a martial art that has "nothing" to offer.

I look at the business side of things. If people are paying money to train and are happy with what they're getting, then that's great. It's not as if anybody's putting a gun to anybody's head and forcing them to train at only one school. We CMAs have OPTIONS nowadays.

[bakxierboxer]

I teach "Seng Men" (Monk Fist).

Make up your mind already........

[Kevin Huang]

You're in Southern California, and a professional sifu too?

GREAT. I have a student in LA who regularly visits other schools. He'd be happy to visit you and show you what we do. And he's not looking for trouble or challenges either.

I'm from Phoenix, which is not far. Currently my schedule is quite busy, as my kung fu class is growing. It's not as easy for me to get to your school as it is for my student, so you'd get a friendly visit from him first.

Tell me where your school is and I'd be happy to arrange a friendly meeting. This is NOT a challenge nor a criticism. I'm trying to network with other professional sifus like yourself in the traditional kung fu arts, because kung fu is about SHARING and not FIGHTING.

[Citong Shifu]

I teach "Seng Men" (Monk Fist).

The method I do and the curriculum I teach are probably 100% opposite from USSD. But I've seen Shaolin Do benefit so many people, and I never argue with results.

I'd imagine that most Shaolin Do students would be uncomfortable in my class. I also don know that most of my students have been uncomfortable with Shaolin Do, having shopped it before coming to me. However, that's like saying that one would rather have Sprite instead of Coke.

I'm not from the "all or nothing" school of martial arts that insists that one style has all the superiority and answers. Nor do I believe that there's such thing as a martial art that has "nothing" to offer.

I look at the business side of things. If people are paying money to train and are happy with what they're getting, then that's great. It's not as if anybody's putting a gun to anybody's head and forcing them to train at only one school. We CMAs have OPTIONS nowadays.

Do you have a website? If so, please provide the address. I would like to visit your site and read about the school and style taught.

[Kevin Huang]

I don't have a website - yet.

I'll get one up going probably next year. It's in the works. There'll be a picture of me, style description, and all.

You do Ziranmen, Citong Sifu. My Seng Men is a distant brother of your style. It's even from the same general geographic location. I haven't seen much of Ziranmen, but I see a lot of commonalities between the two methods.

Are you from the Wan Lai Shen branch of Ziranmen? Is that also who you learned your Liuhemen from?

I could tell you more in PM. This thread is a discussion about Shaolin-Do, and I'll try to stay on topic.

[MasterKiller]

I don't have a website - yet.

I'll get one up going probably next year. It's in the works. There'll be a picture of me, style description, and all.

You do Ziranmen, Citong Sifu. My Seng Men is a distant brother of your style. It's even from the same general geographic location. I haven't seen much of Ziranmen, but I see a lot of commonalities between the two methods.

Are you from the Wan Lai Shen branch of Ziranmen? Is that also who you learned your Liuhemen from?

I could tell you more in PM. This thread is a discussion about Shaolin-Do, and I'll try to stay on topic.

Uh...

You do have a website:
http://kungfu.tinfoildreams.com/about.htm

[Kevin Huang]

I no longer run that school in that location.

Furthermore, I will be making my own website with a completely different look.

Feel free to PM me if you have further interest, MasterKiller. Things have CHANGED since that website was put up several years ago. That's because I'VE changed.

[Citong Shifu]

I don't have a website - yet.

I'll get one up going probably next year. It's in the works. There'll be a picture of me, style description, and all.

You do Ziranmen, Citong Sifu. My Seng Men is a distant brother of your style. It's even from the same general geographic location. I haven't seen much of Ziranmen, but I see a lot of commonalities between the two methods.

Are you from the Wan Lai Shen branch of Ziranmen? Is that also who you learned your Liuhemen from?

I could tell you more in PM. This thread is a discussion about Shaolin-Do, and I'll try to stay on topic.


Yes, my teacher trained with Wan Lai Shen in Fujian. Is Seng Men taoist? Our Liuhe is also from Wan sifu. PM me sometime...

CS

[Kevin Huang]

Seng Men is SORT OF Taoist, in a very subtle way.

I've sent you a private e-mail about Seng Men. Soon, I have some questions for you about Ziranmen that I've been wanting to ask for a number of years.

[bakxierboxer]

You're in Southern California, and a professional sifu too?

Currently mostly on the "retired" list.... as in overly tired of all the nonsense.
My "open-door" days were over in the late 70s.
I have "accepted" exactly two in-door students since the 90s, and finally kicked the newer/dumber one out @ two years ago next month.

I currently do not have a school, although that may change in the coming months.
(mostly a "vehicle" to ensure that the remaining student actually is capable of teaching/passing what should be taught/passed)
(no reflection on my Ct/NY students/grand-students from the "open" days, some of whom are teaching on their own)

That said, I have given public demos and engaged in the two LA KFlist meetings.
Another such meeting can probably be arranged so that all concerned can know "what's what".
A former senior student of Jiang JianYe (Neil) played with me at the 2nd and came back out for a week's worth of private lessons.



GREAT. I have a student in LA who regularly visits other schools. He'd be happy to visit you and show you what we do. And he's not looking for trouble or challenges either.

Got a name for him?
I've got nothing against some contact, but I'm not into "giving anything away" to "unknowns", either.



I'm from Phoenix, which is not far. Currently my schedule is quite busy, as my kung fu class is growing. It's not as easy for me to get to your school as it is for my student, so you'd get a friendly visit from him first.

"Whatever".


Tell me where your school is and I'd be happy to arrange a friendly meeting. This is NOT a challenge nor a criticism. I'm trying to network with other professional sifus like yourself in the traditional kung fu arts, because kung fu is about SHARING and not FIGHTING.

?????????
I already covered the "school situation".
Networking is cool, but sometimes over-rated.
Fighting, in the sense of "internecine warfare"/"back-biting"/etc (TCMA vs TCMA) is sheer nonsense.

My post was directed at your unedited post wherein you claimed to NOT be doing your SiFu's style (Seng Men (Quan)).... and then edited it to indicate that you do.
I mentioned the KFlist, and your SiFu was a prominent & worthwhile contributor on it. We had several MBs worth of personal/off-line communications and he's seen a video of one of my demos.
For whatever reason, he's chosen to go silent for some time now and the KFlist "wound down" from its "heyday" of almost 100 posts per day.
Since then, I was mostly silent, too.... until a thread on this site mentioned my name and I felt I had to at least make sure that they were spelling it right.

In any case, give "us" a reason and I'm fairly sure that we can come up with another "LA KFlist" "meeting" of one sort or another.

[Kevin Huang]

OK, I can accept that.

I can think of no better reason to meet than the one I already gave you: that I want to meet other kung fu martial artists. No more, no less.

Right now I'm teaching in Chandler, Arizona. I've got a class going, and it's been a lot of fun so far. I just "transferred" a student to that class this evening - and he's probably reading this post right now because he's one of those super inquisitive types who asks zillions of GOOD questions!

When I get my "official" school going, I'll let you know. bakxierboxer, you and everybody else on kungfumagazine would be welcome guests. And NO - that's not a challenge. I agree with you that challenges are USELESS.

Besides, the consensus here is that I'm TOO HARMLESS to be a serious threat to injure anybody. Don't you agree, bakxierboxer? Most folks here are not afraid of me at all, and that's exactly how I want people to feel about me.

To me, kung fu is about sharing and love and healing and community. I don't worry about people threatening me or anything like that, though I used to largely because of the Asian culture I grew up in. Those days are over, and now I'm just a kung fu softie teaching kung fu in the West.

I'm just as real as Shaolin-Do is ;)

[bakxierboxer]

OK, I can accept that.

OK.



I can think of no better reason to meet than the one I already gave you: that I want to meet other kung fu martial artists. No more, no less.

The KFlist Meetings were both fun and "edifying".



Right now I'm teaching in Chandler, Arizona. I've got a class going, and it's been a lot of fun so far. I just "transferred" a student to that class this evening

What's a "transfer"?



When I get my "official" school going, I'll let you know. bakxierboxer, you and everybody else on kungfumagazine would be welcome guests. And NO - that's not a challenge.

Sure, if I'm in a traveling mood/mode.
I'm also considering moving to some place with a bit less gummint "intrusion" than the LA/Calfornia area.



I agree with you that challenges are USELESS.

I don't think that I can "subscribe" to that particular point.
They do have their uses, and I'm not exactly a stranger to them from either direction.



Besides, the consensus here is that I'm TOO HARMLESS to be a serious threat to injure anybody. Don't you agree, bakxierboxer? Most folks here are not afraid of me at all, and that's exactly how I want people to feel about me.

I don't usually completely write anyone off without seeing them move.
Of course, if they talk enough nonsense.....

I'm not sure what your last paragraph or so was supposed to be "about".... so I'll skip trying to make any kind of a sensible reply to it.

[Kevin Huang]

Then I'll skip trying to make any sensible replies to your e-mail in return.

What you pose to me, I reflect back at you with my take on things. It's that simple.

[bakxierboxer]

Then I'll skip trying to make any sensible replies to your e-mail in return.

What you pose to me, I reflect back at you with my take on things. It's that simple.

Suit (or shoot) yourself.
Makes no difference to me.

[tattooedmonk]

I teach "Seng Men" (Monk Fist).

The method I do and the curriculum I teach are probably 100% opposite from USSD. But I've seen Shaolin Do benefit so many people, and I never argue with results.

SD Is not USSD.

SD is Shaolin Do , USSD is United Studios of Self Defense.

Please do not confuse the two.

They are completely different.

SD has always taught traditional CMA , I have yet to see any sign of CMA being taught in USSD.



:D:rolleyes:;):eek:

[shen ku]

Any one here going to the lexington gathering and/or the seminar the next day??

[shen ku]

under 550 posts left??

[shen ku]

has anyone seen all of master nances video yet?

[Golden Tiger]

Any one here going to the lexington gathering and/or the seminar the next day??

Yes and yes



has anyone seen all of master nances video yet?

no

[shen ku]

golden tiger, one day i just may find out who you are? or maybe not?

[kwaichang]

I will be there but not competeing due to an injury but maybe next year KC

[shen ku]

I couldn't tell you the last time I did compete, I always bring students. Most of the time they do pretty well. I do wish i knew more of the people on the forum by their real ID, but I guess thats also part of the freedom of this thing??

[Golden Tiger]

golden tiger, one day i just may find out who you are? or maybe not?



I will be sure and say hello.....:D

[shen ku]

golden tiger, do you know who I am?? and I just dont know who you are??

[Kevin Huang]

OOPS.

My error. Shaolin Do is NOT the same as USSD. That was an unintentional typo.

[shen ku]

its getting kind of slow on here? so i'll just ask this, how much time do you spend on you stretching, how many times a week? how much flexability are you going for?

[shen ku]

also kind of curious as to what is the highest ranking Shao-lin Do practitioner on here? Myself I am 3rd black.

[shen ku]

ok i know that meecer is 4th

[naja]

I'm just a lowly green.... :p

[peace&love]

I stretch nearly every day. When I am not kung fu training, I run three time a week. I have adjusted my stretching routine when I run, and I am considering doing so in relation to my kung fu training.

I recently heard a sport medicine doctor on a local radio show talking about stretching. He suggested that athletes stretch after the warm up and not before as many people do. He mentioned runners and said they should stretch after the run and not before. He said use a brisk walk as the warm up, run, then stretch. I have followed this with great results.

Actually, when I was training in kung fu today, I took time to stretch during the work out as well. I feel a lot better than I have before, so we will see. Of course, I could wake up tomorrow with super sore legs like never before.

[JGTevo]

Thats good advice. It's knowledge thats been known for awhile, yet not widespread. Hmm.

[Golden Tiger]

also kind of curious as to what is the highest ranking Shao-lin Do practitioner on here? Myself I am 3rd black.


I am a white belt. I have learned a lot, but I have terrible test anxiety. ;)



He mentioned runners and said they should stretch after the run and not before. He said use a brisk walk as the warm up, run, then stretch. I have followed this with great results.


If you take notice to the standard warm up most schools follow prior to class, the first few get the blood circulating and the muscles warm then you stretch them out. A couple of the teachers over at the Lex. gym usually end the classes with with stretching. By that time, the muscles are nice and warm, you get a better stretch and most of all, everyone is so tired, theres less whinning.:D

[tattooedmonk]

Static stretching before workouts reduces rate of force production and will hinder the properly conditioned athlete ( advanced level-to expert).However,Active and Dynamic stretching will not .

During the the Corrective Exercise Training and Integrated Stabilization Training and Stabilization Equivalent Training( beginning- intermediate level), it is still recommended to do static stretching prior to working out.

This is according to N.A.S.M.

[kwaichang]

Ok TTM I need to see some references for that statement you made about force production KC

[shen ku]

i have read some about that same thing not for sure where the study i read came from but i have seen it

[kwaichang]

There is no anatomical or physiological reason why there would be decreased force output post stretching. Most flexibility that is lacking has to do with the non contractile areas assoc with the muscle. The tendon and the ligaments in some cases. Since little force from crontractile fibers occurs in these areas the reason for the possible decreased output would be due to decreased firing or inhibition of the muscles themseles due to antagonist stretching or ciontracting this can easily be over come by performing slow repetitions of applied movements IE stances and slow kicks etc. Which one should do anyway prior to vigorous activity. KC

[shen ku]

but some fo us have very limited training time. so we have to get the most from a small amount of time ( hit it and get it done ) so we need every little trick to make the most of it with what we got?

[shen ku]

KC what area are you from? myself ky

[Judge Pen]

Why it is important which SD is the highest rank here? I know of several high-ranking members of this forum that contribute regularly, but what does that matter?

[shen ku]

JP it does not matter at all, i was just curious, thats all.,,,,,,,,,just looking for something to keep this thing going , it had gotton kind of dead for a few days and like i said i was just curious?? rank is not important to me but i do give it respect just like i do years in the system or someone who has just done alot with their short time in, i try to give respect to all, i am 3rd black,but i have as of next tuesday 9/09/08, 23 years in SD

[shen ku]

and i know master that have less time in and 1st blacks that have more?????????

[themeecer]

and i know master that have less time in and 1st blacks that have more?????????

Ain't that the truth.

[themeecer]

oh meecer you know who i am ,,, you should really just think alittle about it, maybe i shouldn't tell you and see if you can?? heres a hint, we have trained in the same (basicly) town? in the same art? both under a master? but not the same school? does that help? oh, and we always say we are going to get together,or email more or anything to keep in touch, but we never seem to do it?

Ah ha!!! I know who you are. So have we broken our cycle by finially contacting each other through email?

I'll be at the tournament as well.

[shen ku]

meecer i guess we have , i'll be there, and i didn't mean that in a bad way about time , ALL THINGS IN THERE OWN TIME!!

[brucereiter]

I am a white belt. I have learned a lot, but I have terrible test anxiety. ;)

i thought you would be at least a blue belt by now :-)

[Judge Pen]

JP it does not matter at all, i was just curious, thats all.,,,,,,,,,just looking for something to keep this thing going , it had gotton kind of dead for a few days and like i said i was just curious?? rank is not important to me but i do give it respect just like i do years in the system or someone who has just done alot with their short time in, i try to give respect to all, i am 3rd black,but i have as of next tuesday 9/09/08, 23 years in SD

Fair enough. The higher I get in rank, the less it matters to me. To keep it going, I'm 4th now. In January, I will have 20 years in the style.

One day I might catch up to GTs white belt.

[shen ku]

JP it seems the more i learn the more i learn that i don't know anything, but at the same time it seems that each and every person that i meet or chat with in SD, that we all seem to share a lot of knowledge, and we all seem to have our own spin on things, even guys that i have trained with for 15 years, we may not be around each other for a while, and when we talk we are working on the same areas in our spare time, and we are also working it totally different areas on each end of the scale. but the main ideas is to keep training on something?? use it or loss it??

[Golden Tiger]

The higher I get in rank, the less it matters to me.

The only reason that I want to get a higher rank is so I can get up sooner when the class bows out. Its hard on the old knees having to wait to be the last one up!:(


it seems the more i learn the more i learn that i don't know anything


You've stopped looking at the forest and have started looking at the trees.....;)

[kwaichang]

Hey how are your IT Bands are they loosened up yet ??? KC

[Golden Tiger]

[QUOTEHey how are your IT Bands are they loosened up yet ??? KC[/QUOTE]

Since I am not sure what an IT Band is (unless its the garage band I formed years ago with some geeks in the computer dept), I think you might have me confused with one of the other posters.

[kwaichang]

just a stab in the dark KC

[Eternal Student]

JP it seems the more i learn the more i learn that i don't know anything, but at the same time it seems that each and every person that i meet or chat with in SD, that we all seem to share a lot of knowledge, and we all seem to have our own spin on things, even guys that i have trained with for 15 years, we may not be around each other for a while, and when we talk we are working on the same areas in our spare time, and we are also working it totally different areas on each end of the scale. but the main ideas is to keep training on something?? use it or loss it??

I just hit 1st black this August, and after my first black belt class, I felt like a white belt all over again. It was nice though, realizing all the neat stuff I have coming up. Now I just need to get the 64 and Pa Kua back that I have neglected over the past six months. :p

[tattooedmonk]

Ok TTM I need to see some references for that statement you made about force production KCI made the corrections and stated the source in the original post. I hate it when you post something ( or think you did )and parts of it go missing.:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

[QUOTE=Golden Tiger;880313

Since I am not sure what an IT Band is (unless its the garage band I formed years ago with some geeks in the computer dept), I think you might have me confused with one of the other posters.[/QUOTE]



Illio-Tibial Band.:D

[Baqualin]

To those coming to the the Golden Leopard Seminar or those thinking of it....you will get a special treat...GM Sin is going to teach a Black Tiger Broadsword set (much longer than the Green Dragon Broadsword).....no extra cost......if your not signed up for the Golden Leopard....for a small fee you can just come for the Broadsword set
BQ

[mkriii]

I see there is a SD tournament on the 20th. Or at least thats what the web site says. I assume its for SD students only? Can people come watch?

[kwaichang]

It is usually 5$ to watch see ya there KC

[kungfujunky]

To those coming to the the Golden Leopard Seminar or those thinking of it....you will get a special treat...GM Sin is going to teach a Black Tiger Broadsword set (much longer than the Green Dragon Broadsword).....no extra cost......if your not signed up for the Golden Leopard....for a small fee you can just come for the Broadsword set
BQ



can i come?

lol broadsword is my favorite weapon!

[Baqualin]

can i come?

lol broadsword is my favorite weapon!

Of course you can!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'd like to apologize for any disrespectful things I've said in the past. They only reflect poorly on myself, not on GM The' or Shaolin-Do.

Good luck in the future.

--SW

[Judge Pen]

I'll definitely be there (with black kung fu top with frog buttons and trimmed in red, wearing blue jeans, and a pair of black iguana skin boots).

Is that usual attire, or are you dressing up for the tournament?

[mkriii]

Is that usual attire, or are you dressing up for the tournament?

Just wearing the kung fu top so that Baqualin will know who I am when he sees the stranger in the kung fu top sitting in the stands. I have been wanting to meet him, just never got around to it. I'm sure my reputation on here precieves me on this site :D and others will want to see who i am as well.

[mkriii]

Is the tournament open to anyone to compete?

[BentMonk]

I believe the competition is only open to current SD students. I'm a fan of opening things up to everyone, but that's not my call. I'll be there, but I really blend in with the crowd so you might miss me. ;)

[shen ku]

if you look you will see that they call it a gathering now, so kind of look at it like a big family getting togather to enjoy fellowship. thats how i enjoy it anyway?? seeing people you haven't seen fow awhile, chatting about training, how schools are doing, that kind of stuff,, plus it helps to get people fired up, seeing others doing a form better,,or worse, than you can ,,, you think "man i need to get mine down like that" or " **** i should have been out there showing how it should be done" and then go home and kick yourself in the a$$,,,,,,,,,,but , to me, its about shao-lin do being around, and enjoying fellow shao-lin do brothers, sister,

[shen ku]

oh but unlike a family thing,,,,,,,,,theres no FOOD!! someone should fix some chicken or something??:D

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, I like open tournament so you get the exposure to other styles and different fighting styles of people. Why is it that Sin The' doesn't have an open tournament? Is his art to deadly? If so then why does he even hold a tournament each year? So he really can't use that as an excuse. Could it be that he doesn't want his students to see his other students getting beat by other styles?

:rolleyes: Dude, he has enough students under him so that he can have an annual tournament that just for his students. There's nothing wrong with that. I prefer an open style tournament myslef. Back when I trained and competed more regularly (i.e. pre-baby) I loved competing in an open tournament because I love crossing hands with other styles. But having a tournament among family is fun too. Kind of like backyard football at Thanksgiving.

[naja]

Master Mullins is having a "fight day" ( local tournament ) at his kwoon this Saturday. It's just for SD students as well. It gives us a chance to get to know other SD students from area schools, and practice some sparring. I've never heard of anyone concerned that no other styles would be there, I know we're all thankful for the experiences we take away from it and are thankful that Master Garry is willing to put the time into organizing it for us.

If any of his students wanted to go to an open tournament, I doubt Master Garry would care a bit.

[brucereiter]

Yeah, I like open tournament so you get the exposure to other styles and different fighting styles of people. Why is it that Sin The' doesn't have an open tournament? Is his art to deadly? If so then why does he even hold a tournament each year? So he really can't use that as an excuse. Could it be that he doesn't want his students to see his other students getting beat by other styles?

this leads me to a few questions:

why do i bother to read your posts?

why do you care what a person who studies shaolin do does?

why do your posts always seem passive aggressive ploys to make a negative comment?

if you are really concerned why not just go knock on the door of a shaolin do school and tell the people there what you think?

why are you so focused on that "famous" quote about shaolin do being too "deadly" for tournaments?

can i see some of your practice? you must be highly skilled.

with love and irony:-)

[BentMonk]

mkriii - Dude, you studied SD 20 years ago and you still have all these issues? I'm not sure therapy would help, but you can try. As to having SD student's best interest at heart, thanks I guess but your concern and assistance are not necessary. Google is every one's friend. Anyone with access to a computer can make an informed decision about whatever pursuits they choose with a little typing and reading. Despite the efforts of yourself and several others across the net, SD continues to thrive. To see why the "general public is ignorant about MA" argument doesn't fly, refer to my above comments regarding Google. No one I know of who trains in any style of MA chose their current school based solely on 100% verifiable lineage. Most choose their school and or art based on the apparent skill of the instructor and their students, the price for lessons, the location of the school, and the class schedule as it relates to their lifestyle. Most people understand that mythical lineage claims are marketing tools. In today's MA world where you came from is not as important as where you are now, and where you are going in terms of your art's effectiveness in helping students achieve their training goals. I don't care if part or all of SD's history is fact or fiction. The fact remains that my time in SD has given me great physical and mental conditioning, and martial skills that I have applied effectively on the street and in the ring. I have known GM Sin for many years and I do not feel that he is doing anything other than passing on the story of SD's history as it was told to him. I have told him personally of the many times I have competed in events outside of SD. He has never been anything but encouraging towards me about it. Not once did he say I shouldn't be doing that. In fact most if not all of SD's upper ranks are fully aware of what I do. It is after all pointless for me to try and remain anonymous. I have never once been discouraged from competing outside of SD. If this was once the case with GM Sin, it isn't now. If this is the case with certain SD instructors, I don't see how they can have this attitude and still consider themselves to be following GM Sin's wishes. I am obviously not the only person to have had a positive experience with SD. You didn't. I'm sorry about that, but you really should go back and read most of your posts. You may or may not realize how foolish you make yourself appear. I hope you're happy in what ever art you're currently studying. If you are happy, go train and let us SD people be happy also. Just as you see little or no value in us spending time training in SD, we see little or no value in your attempts to "save" us from GM Sin and the evil SD machine. Give it up man, unless you just get off on being a troll. BTW if you're going to talk so much smack about how some one's art sucks, you might gain at least a speck of credibility by posting some video to show all of us poor unfortunate souls how awesome you and the art you study are, and why we should let ourselves be saved by your awesomeness. Without some proof in your pudding your posts are nothing more than a diversion only slightly more enjoyable than watching paint dry.

[Judge Pen]

If any of his students wanted to go to an open tournament, I doubt Master Garry would care a bit.

From my experience, he is fine with it, but I always ask first because its the polite and respectful thing to do. Get your teacher's blessing.

[Judge Pen]

You read my posts because you know i speak the truth. I care becuase I have your best interest at heart. I didn't realize my posts were passive aggresive ploys to make a neg comment. I have asked SD students these question but have not recieved a logical answer. The reason I'm so focused on that statement about being to deadly for tournaments is because GM Sin does not approve of his students competing on the open circuit against other styles but yet he has his own tournament for just SD people. So what he is saying is it's to deadly to use on the open circuit but it's not to deadly to use on your fellow SD brothers and sisters? Makes no sense. I've had several SD students say that they have been told that they may compete at tournaments but it's frowned apon and discouraged by GM sin. As for you seeing some of my practice.....sure. You may see me practice any time you want. Just pay me $20 per practice session that you watch. Remember, no free lessons. :D That much I did learn from GM Sin when I studied SD back in the early 80's at the Sports Center on Richmond Road (behind McDonalds and what was then TW Lee's).

B.S. I've competed and its not frowned on. Master Garry used to host an open tournament in J.C., but stopped because it was too expensive. He had a student that fought in an MMA match in Louisville KY. Not only did he approve, he went and watched him.

Your "facts" are 20 years old.

[Judge Pen]

BTW if you're going to talk so much smack about how some one's art sucks, you might gain at least a speck of credibility by posting some video to show all of us poor unfortunate souls how awesome you and the art you study are, and why we should let ourselves be saved by your awesomeness. Without some proof in your pudding your posts are nothing more than a diversion only slightly more enjoyable than watching paint dry.

It will never happen. Mark is too content in talking about how good his teachers are instead. I know both be reputation and believe them to be great martial artists, but having a skilled teacher doesn't mean that you are any good.

[MasterKiller]

Not only did he approve, he went and watched him. His teacher didn't corner for him?:confused:
Who ran the corner?

[naja]

From my experience, he is fine with it, but I always ask first because its the polite and respectful thing to do. Get your teacher's blessing.

oh, I have no desire to do an open tournament. I only mentioned it to give perspective of one who enjoys atmosphere the "SD only" sparring.

[Lamassu]

As for you seeing some of my practice.....sure. You may see me practice any time you want. Just pay me $20 per practice session that you watch. Remember, no free lessons. :D


I call BULLSH!T!!!! You don't know any kung-fu whatsoever, and you lie when you claim to know the Ng family. Why else won't you show off your skills? You're afraid of baqualin, and you won't go near a SD kwoon because you know you'll be exposed as the charlatan that you are.

BTW, I must commend you on your troll skills, that 'shaolin ninja' tard didn't last as long as you. Well done flamer.

[brucereiter]

You read my posts because you know i speak the truth. I care becuase I have your best interest at heart. I didn't realize my posts were passive aggresive ploys to make a neg comment.


be honest with yourself.



I have asked SD students these question but have not recieved a logical answer. The reason I'm so focused on that statement about being to deadly for tournaments is because GM Sin does not approve of his students competing on the open circuit against other styles but yet he has his own tournament for just SD people. So what he is saying is it's to deadly to use on the open circuit but it's not to deadly to use on your fellow SD brothers and sisters? Makes no sense.


try to understand the word context.

when doing any kind of competition there are rules and the basic safety of your opponent is a concern. to use the mma paradigm (you can use google to look it up :-) ) as an example in the ring they will punch/kick/grapple etc but if you take most mma guys out of the "ring" and put them in a self defense situation say where they defend their wife every thing changes and what they do there may not be suitable for competition. does that make sense?



I've had several SD students say that they have been told that they may compete at tournaments but it's frowned apon and discouraged by GM sin.

so what?



As for you seeing some of my practice.....sure. You may see me practice any time you want. Just pay me $20 per practice session that you watch. Remember, no free lessons. :D That much I did learn from GM Sin when I studied SD back in the early 80's at the Sports Center on Richmond Road (behind McDonalds and what was then TW Lee's).

blah blah blah it is hard to understand you through all of your blah blah blah lol.

it would be nice to see what you do to help "us" understand where you are coming from. are you afraid to share your martial insights? is what you do a secret?

[mkriii]

I call BULLSH!T!!!! You don't know any kung-fu whatsoever, and you lie when you claim to know the Ng family. Why else won't you show off your skills? You're afraid of baqualin, and you won't go near a SD kwoon because you know you'll be exposed as the charlatan that you are.

BTW, I must commend you on your troll skills, that 'shaolin ninja' tard didn't last as long as you. Well done flamer.

Is this what you really think? ............ LMFAO.
Well lets see, how can I prove to you that I am who I say I am and that I am part of the Ng family. I would have you call my sifu but he is living in China now working for an electronics company that is based out of Sichuan Province. You may e-mail his brother to ask him or you may call Sijo Rusty Gray in Tennessee to ask him who I am or you may call Master Bruce Linville also in Tennessee and ask him if I'm a student under John Dufresne who is a direct student of GrandMaster Dr. John Wing Loc Ng. I also studied under GM Ng for 2 and a half years before studying under John Dufresne. How else can I prove to you.....here we go.....Four Seasons Kung Fu & Wu Shu Academy was owned and runned by GM Ng. The school was on Regency Road. John Ng had a big dog named Tojo, it was a Japanese Akida. The teachers there were Eric Nesson, John Dufresne, Mark Burgher, Tony McIntire, Wes Allen, and Julie Frederick. Some of the other students of John Ng's were Kim Warner, Mary The' Fernandez, Gary Dezarn, and William Quam. What else do I need to say to you to prove I am who I say I am and that I trained under who I said I trained under.?

[Baqualin]

B.S. I've competed and its not frowned on. Master Garry used to host an open tournament in J.C., but stopped because it was too expensive. He had a student that fought in an MMA match in Louisville KY. Not only did he approve, he went and watched him.

Your "facts" are 20 years old.

It's never been frowned on...35 years old info....GMS used to hold open tourneys....stopped because of restrictions placed on techniques allowed by the national organizations of that time......pretty much all the upper levels have competed on the national & local level at one time or another...some still do....most have done very well I might add. So to make a long story short....Mark knows nothing of SD today or twenty years ago....who really cares.....showing up to a tourney with a frog top trimmed in red with jeans and Iguana boots kinda paints a picture of a village idiot....I don't think Mark will really do that.....just looking to stir up sh!t for attention or he's jealous because we love the SD family and what we do.

Mark, you PM'd me with an interest in Tai Chi and I responded with my phone number (weeks ago) and an open invitation to call me anytime to talk, possibly meet and see if I could be of help to you.....have you picked up the phone and called me, no....you also know that I will be out of town for this gathering...first time in years I've missed one......If you really want to meet....then do so and quit your BS....I have no quarrel with you or anyone else....as I told you I only care about teaching, helping people to have a better quality of life and give what has been given to me. These are some of the things I have learned from GMS & EML...not just kicking someones a$$...it's called respect .....hope you can learn this too someday.
You know my phone # and where I teach...use it!
BQ

[Lamassu]

What else do I need to say to you to prove I am who I say I am and that I trained under who I said I trained under.?

Oh I don't know... maybe honor that little sparring match with Baqualin? All you've proven is you've done your homework online (well done), but everytime you open your mouth, nothing but sh!t spews out. Why should I bend over backwards to prove your claims, when a simple meet and greet w/ Baqualin will alieve all doubts? You talk a lot of smack about how SD sux but you never back it up. You want to come to the upcoming Lexington SD Gathering, but you're afraid to set foot in one of our kwoons; you're afraid to even MEET one of us face to face. No anger, no fighting, no p!ssing contest, just put your skills where your mouth is.

[mkriii]

It's never been frowned on...35 years old info....GMS used to hold open tourneys....stopped because of restrictions placed on techniques allowed by the national organizations of that time......pretty much all the upper levels have competed on the national & local level at one time or another...some still do....most have done very well I might add. So to make a long story short....Mark knows nothing of SD today or twenty years ago....who really cares.....showing up to a tourney with a frog top trimmed in red with jeans and Iguana boots kinda paints a picture of a village idiot....I don't think Mark will really do that.....just looking to stir up sh!t for attention or he's jealous because we love the SD family and what we do.

Mark, you PM'd me with an interest in Tai Chi and I responded with my phone number (weeks ago) and an open invitation to call me anytime to talk, possibly meet and see if I could be of help to you.....have you picked up the phone and called me, no....you also know that I will be out of town for this gathering...first time in years I've missed one......If you really want to meet....then do so and quit your BS....I have no quarrel with you or anyone else....as I told you I only care about teaching, helping people to have a better quality of life and give what has been given to me. These are some of the things I have learned from GMS & EML...not just kicking someones a$$...it's called respect .....hope you can learn this too someday.
You know my phone # and where I teach...use it!
BQ


No I actually didn't know you were going to be out of town for this event. I actually am going to it to watch.

[Baqualin]

No I actually didn't know you were going to be out of town for this event. I actually am going to it to watch.

You should if you read the response to your PM the other day.
BQ

[mkriii]

no haven't read them lately but I will now.

[Judge Pen]

Is this what you really think? ............ LMFAO.
Well lets see, how can I prove to you that I am who I say I am and that I am part of the Ng family. I would have you call my sifu but he is living in China now working for an electronics company that is based out of Sichuan Province. You may e-mail his brother to ask him or you may call Sijo Rusty Gray in Tennessee to ask him who I am or you may call Master Bruce Linville also in Tennessee and ask him if I'm a student under John Dufresne who is a direct student of GrandMaster Dr. John Wing Loc Ng. I also studied under GM Ng for 2 and a half years before studying under John Dufresne. How else can I prove to you.....here we go.....Four Seasons Kung Fu & Wu Shu Academy was owned and runned by GM Ng. The school was on Regency Road. John Ng had a big dog named Tojo, it was a Japanese Akida. The teachers there were Eric Nesson, John Dufresne, Mark Burgher, Tony McIntire, Wes Allen, and Julie Frederick. Some of the other students of John Ng's were Kim Warner, Mary The' Fernandez, Gary Dezarn, and William Quam. What else do I need to say to you to prove I am who I say I am and that I trained under who I said I trained under.?


Mark, we get it. You're part of the Ng lineage. So you going to post a video of yourself now or keep talking about your pedigree? Like I said, having good teachers doesn't make you a good student.

[mkriii]

I don't have a video of me and if I did I wouldn't know how to post it and thirdly I don't have a computer at home, only at work.

[bodhi warrior]

If mark goes to the tournament he is going to see some very bad kung fu and some very good kung fu. I've been guilty of judging the "bad" kung fu in the past, but have since realized that almost all the participants are real people with real jobs and families. When you have so many other priorities developing a good form goes to the back burner, you practice as much as your time allows.
I myself have a family and full time job so I get to practice about an hour a day. I'm not as good as I could be if I trained 4 hours a day.
So Mark, if you do go try not to judge to harshly. But you will see some guys who can really throw down.

By the way, anyone know anything about this shaolin black tiger broadsword form? Has it been taught before? And is it part of our black tiger system?

[Judge Pen]

I don't have a video of me and if I did I wouldn't know how to post it and thirdly I don't have a computer at home, only at work.

I didn't either. I filmed myself at an open tournament.

Its easy to post at youtube. Even a non-computer savy person like me can do it.

So you do all your posting on the company dime? Anyway, I'm sure a number of people would help you download the video.

[kwaichang]

OPen tourneys are a political joke I competed for years and know what I am saying. As far as being "too deadly" I believe the words used is to lethal there is a difference in my mind I do not know of many or any tournaments that allow eye pokes groin grabs or single knuckle strikes or knee kicks or break locks etc and that is a portion of what is in SD . There are basically 5-7 tech used in tourneys 5 kicks and 4 punches etc. So yes SD is if trained as it should be is too lethal for tourneys, The tech used in tourneys are watered down tag matches . KC

[Baqualin]

If mark goes to the tournament he is going to see some very bad kung fu and some very good kung fu. I've been guilty of judging the "bad" kung fu in the past, but have since realized that almost all the participants are real people with real jobs and families. When you have so many other priorities developing a good form goes to the back burner, you practice as much as your time allows.
I myself have a family and full time job so I get to practice about an hour a day. I'm not as good as I could be if I trained 4 hours a day.
So Mark, if you do go try not to judge to harshly. But you will see some guys who can really throw down.

By the way, anyone know anything about this shaolin black tiger broadsword form? Has it been taught before? And is it part of our black tiger system?

It's never been taught and yes it's a weapons form from the BT system.
BQ

[peace&love]

It seems that Mark has gotten everybody fired up again. That's unfortunate. I currently study SD and enjoy it. I looked at all the CMA schools available to me and Shaolin Do was the best fit. As mentioned before by another post, I did indeed like many others factored in schedule, price, and the personality/dedication of the sifu and not the system so much. I have met many of the people Mark mentions and have found most of them, such as Sifu Gray, to be very open to other styles and training methods. He has even showed up to our school in the past to share technique and network. I have always found him to be very kind and respectful. Mark is very passionate about his style and that's okay, but I wish he would be at peace with others who make the best choices and decisions for themselves.

Most styles or systems have closed tournaments. It is an opportunity to meet others with the same interests and see old friends and make new ones. I have found closed tournaments to be more of a family reunion than a competition. But that's just my point of view. Open tournaments are fun and SD or anyone in it has never discouraged me from participated in one. I have even had the honor to be invited to private tournaments outside of SD for which I am grateful.

Hopefully, this post will return to sharing knowledge, news, and ideas for a greater good and not be used as a slamfest on other styles. It's obvious from previous posts that SD practitioners are not going to change their minds about things. Simply respect it and move on your on path. If it makes you at peace with the world and a better, productive member of society, that is good and that is the essence of kung fu in my opinion.

[kwaichang]

I Have known R Gray for approx 28 years and unless he has changed alot he is still arrogant self centered and a rip off KC

[kungfujunky]

here he is again the bi polar mkriiiiass

man your a joke

i posted vids of me doing half ass **** kung fu

all you have done is blah blah blah


your a coward sir.

plain and simple.

[Judge Pen]

peace and love is right. I should remember my promise to just ignore mark. I've got enough pressure in my life; i don't need any more negative energy from some troll on a forum.

[kwaichang]

Did you notice how Mrk got real nice when he hurt his back ? I guess he feels better now KC

[Judge Pen]

Did you notice how Mrk got real nice when he hurt his back ? I guess he feels better now KC

Yeah, I noticed that too.

[Baqualin]

peace and love is right. I should remember my promise to just ignore mark. I've got enough pressure in my life; i don't need any more negative energy from some troll on a forum.

I was hoping you would remember that.:D
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Io7zkTNiS4


Just found this on youtube. I noticed they do lohan chien, lien u chang and others very different from the way I was taught.

[brucereiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Io7zkTNiS4


Just found this on youtube. I noticed they do lohan chien, lien u chang and others very different from the way I was taught.

what types of differences do you notice?

i thought it was a good demo from a variety of students with varying ages, skill sets, understandings and length of time practicing the martial arts.

[bodhi warrior]

what types of differences do you notice?

i thought it was a good demo from a variety of students with varying ages, skill sets, understandings and length of time practicing the martial arts.



Not saying it was bad, just different. In lohan chien alot of postures were just different.

[mkriii]

OPen tourneys are a political joke I competed for years and know what I am saying. As far as being "too deadly" I believe the words used is to lethal there is a difference in my mind I do not know of many or any tournaments that allow eye pokes groin grabs or single knuckle strikes or knee kicks or break locks etc and that is a portion of what is in SD . There are basically 5-7 tech used in tourneys 5 kicks and 4 punches etc. So yes SD is if trained as it should be is too lethal for tourneys, The tech used in tourneys are watered down tag matches . KC

And what makes SD more lethal or deadly than any other style?

[mkriii]

okay, sorry guys. I did say I was going to behave didn't I. No more neg comments I promise. I'm sorry. Honestly. I had a relapse there for a few minutes. It won't happen again.

So whats everyone's plan for the weekend?

[brucereiter]

Not saying it was bad, just different. In lohan chien alot of postures were just different.

i thought some was good and some was bad. this is one of the things i liked about it though is it showed that anyone can enjoy this practice ... normal people ...

[tattooedmonk]

And what makes SD more lethal or deadly than any other style?Nothing. Lethal techniques are lethal techniques........

[tattooedmonk]

okay, sorry guys. I did say I was going to behave didn't I. No more neg comments I promise. I'm sorry. Honestly. I had a relapse there for a few minutes. It won't happen again.

So whats everyone's plan for the weekend?
Then why not delete the post??? You have issues, dude!

[BentMonk]

He must have learned that from GM Sin then because GM Sin is the con man of all con men. I mean come on, he charges money for every little thing. You "sin" the money and you "hwang" the diploma.

There are many in the martial art and fitness community that charge for each seminar and DVD they offer. Most of them charge much more than GM Sin. Why do you single him out? Just because someone offers a seminar or DVD does not mean that anyone is obligated to buy them. I have went to many of GM Sin's seminars, but I've probably missed more than I've attended. I have yet to be disappointed with any seminar I've been to. I knew going in that it was not possible to completely learn the form and all of it's nuances in one afternoon. The DVD helped solve that problem. I nor anyone I know in SD has ever been pressured into attending a seminar. Neither have I or anyone I know in SD been treated differently by GM Sin or any other person in SD because we do not attend every seminar that is offered. The fact that several hundred people regularly attend GM Sin's seminars proves that they see some genuine value in what he offers. If he were the con man that you allege, word would have spread quickly after the first seminar and attendance would have plummeted. The exact opposite is what has occurred. Your own words prove that your troll fu is weak. Perhaps your time would be better spent training in your own awesome style and improving your own awesomeness. BTW, where's that awesome video of you doing "real" kung fu? :D

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Io7zkTNiS4


Just found this on youtube. I noticed they do lohan chien, lien u chang and others very different from the way I was taught.I noticed this too. Overall it was pretty good. I noticed that there was what appeared to be flailing of the arms, legs and less focused intent. Most people are not Professional Martial Artist so I take this into account.

[mkriii]

here he is again the bi polar mkriiiiass

man your a joke

i posted vids of me doing half ass **** kung fu

all you have done is blah blah blah


your a coward sir.

plain and simple.

Your the one that said your kung fu was half a$$, not me. And as for me posting a video of me, I don't have a video nor do I know how to post it even if I had one.

[mkriii]

Then why not delete the post??? You have issues, dude!

Done. I Deleted posts.

[Lamassu]

Your the one that said your kung fu was half a$$, not me. And as for me posting a video of me, I don't have a video nor do I know how to post it even if I had one.

Okay, then just honor that meet and greet with Bagualin then. Ng's Family Martial Arts DO encourage honor, don't they? Why is it so hard for you to just meet the man?

[mkriii]

There are many in the martial art and fitness community that charge for each seminar and DVD they offer. Most of them charge much more than GM Sin. Why do you single him out? Just because someone offers a seminar or DVD does not mean that anyone is obligated to buy them. I have went to many of GM Sin's seminars, but I've probably missed more than I've attended. I have yet to be disappointed with any seminar I've been to. I knew going in that it was not possible to completely learn the form and all of it's nuances in one afternoon. The DVD helped solve that problem. I nor anyone I know in SD has ever been pressured into attending a seminar. Neither have I or anyone I know in SD been treated differently by GM Sin or any other person in SD because we do not attend every seminar that is offered. The fact that several hundred people regularly attend GM Sin's seminars proves that they see some genuine value in what he offers. If he were the con man that you allege, word would have spread quickly after the first seminar and attendance would have plummeted. The exact opposite is what has occurred. Your own words prove that your troll fu is weak. Perhaps your time would be better spent training in your own awesome style and improving your own awesomeness. BTW, where's that awesome video of you doing "real" kung fu? :D


Its not that he charges for seminars and DVD's. I have NO problem with that. Its the part about making it a requirment to go to these seminars to learn a required form and having to pay for it on top of your monthly dues you already pay. I thought thats why you paid monthly dues? And when you sign up they don't tell you this. I've had several people tell me this is true. But it doesn't happen untill like brown belt.

[Eternal Student]

Its not that he charges for seminars and DVD's. I have NO problem with that. Its the part about making it a requirment to go to these seminars to learn a required form and having to pay for it on top of your monthly dues you already pay. I thought thats why you paid monthly dues? And when you sign up they don't tell you this. I've had several people tell me this is true. But it doesn't happen untill like brown belt.

This is absolutely NOT true. None of the seminars that are taught are required to advance. Some seminars require that you have attended previous ones because they build off material that was taught in them. Get your facts straight, troll.

[mkriii]

It was posted that this was true by one of your own not to long ago. Just going by what was said.

[Eternal Student]

It was posted that this was true by one of your own not to long ago. Just going by what was said.

OK, so show us this post.

[mkriii]

OK, so show us this post.


okay, give me a minute and I'll post it.

[BentMonk]

mrkiii - I'd be very interested in seeing that post as well. NONE of the seminars GM Sin has offered were forms required for rank advancement. If there are any SD instructors turning required material into a seminar, I would consider that instructor a direct contradiction to the example shown by GM Sin. I have never heard of this practice from anyone other than you, so until I see some proof I'm just going to consider the source and party on. All of what you have said about SD has been shown to be inaccurate. I am a student of the second SD school opened and I have been around a long time. I have yet to see first hand ANY of the BS you and others spew about SD and GM Sin. Until I do see it with my own eyes or hear it with my own ears, I will continue to give such BS all the credibility and consideration it deserves...none.

As to your excuse for not posting video...I call BS. If you were truly motivated, it is very easy to find a video camera to use. Most video cameras are not hard to operate. My nine year old daughter can operate ours just fine. In fact I may let her shoot the footage of me I plan on posting very soon. Posting a video on YouTube is very self explanatory. If you'd like I can have my fifteen year old son PM you instructions. In case you missed it, the point of my sarcasm is to say that you have no intention of posting any video. You are content to hide behind your keyboard. I am certain any video I post will be a source of great amusement for years to come. That's o.k. by me. 39 years of having people notice the fact that I walk kind of funny has made me pretty thick skinned. I also believe that if I'm going to sit behind my own keyboard and talk smack, I can man up and put myself out there for everyone to take a shot at me. :D

[mkriii]

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/animal-forms-styles/19987-wanted-info-shaolin-do-karate-27.html

post #263 on the thread entitled "wanted: info on Shaolin Do" posted by wonderingsoul says that I am correct in what I say. He even goes on to ask how he can legitimize SD so other styles won't laugh when SD is mentioned. Read it yourself.

[Eternal Student]

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/animal-forms-styles/19987-wanted-info-shaolin-do-karate-27.html

post #263 on the thread entitled "wanted: info on Shaolin Do" posted by wonderingsoul says that I am correct in what I say. He even goes on to ask how he can legitimize SD so other styles won't laugh when SD is mentioned. Read it yourself.

Sorry bud, but still incorrect. I just had a fellow classmate test from 3rd to 4th, and none of the material he was required to learn was gained via a seminar. I am not sure where those two individual in posts 261 and 262 got their information, but since neither one of them is a high level black belt, they most likely don't know what they are talking about. Judge Pen can confirm this I am sure, as well as some others.

[mkriii]

Sorry bud, but still incorrect. I just had a fellow classmate test from 3rd to 4th, and none of the material he was required to learn was gained via a seminar. I am not sure where those two individual in posts 261 and 262 got their information, but since neither one of them is a high level black belt, they most likely don't know what they are talking about. Judge Pen can confirm this I am sure, as well as some others.

Okay bud, I'll consede that you are right. I just wanted you to know where I was getting this info and that I wasn't just pulling it out of my ass. The information that I spew comes from sources. I don't just make them up because I think it sounds cool. When you have several people telling you something is true and they do that particular style you believe them.
Especially when its more than 1 person saying it. But now you get to see what other people besides me think about SD.

[mkriii]

I guess okay. How are you is the question? Better yet, who are you?

[BentMonk]

mkriii - I just read the entire thread that you linked. It was very similar to this thread only smaller. There were even folks over there that thought you were clueless and needed to move on from the apparent SD trauma you endured when you were thirteen. As I've said, I don't care if SD's history is true or not. It's none of my business (or anyone's for that matter) why the The' brothers had a falling out. That's family business that should be left to family. I wasn't around for the infamous Four Seasons vs. SD fight, so I could care less what supposedly did or did not happen. It's all hearsay to me, and not relevant to my training. I have never been charged any "hidden fees". I have never had to attend a seminar to advance in rank. I was not required to join the SDA. I have yet to see any of these alleged practices first hand at any of the SD schools I have visited. As I said, until I do I will treat all such claims as BS.

Here's how it is where I train.

At my SD school we spar with medium to heavy body contact, none to light head contact. You can spar harder than that if you want, but we encourage you to pad up before hand. :D We are NOT taught to stop two inches before our target. I believe that others who have said this was how things are taught are misinterpreting the "snap" principle that is taught when learning basic punching. SD does have a lot of forms, however at my school we do not simply move from form to form. Proper body mechanics, stances, and alignment are heavily emphasised. We are also shown various practical applications for the movements we learn, and we drill those applications on a fairly regular basis. These are the reasons why I train and will continue to train there. I am not some clueless noob that stumbled blindly into my MA training. My school provided all I asked for and more. The rest of this BS is just that...BS

[Judge Pen]

Sorry bud, but still incorrect. I just had a fellow classmate test from 3rd to 4th, and none of the material he was required to learn was gained via a seminar. I am not sure where those two individual in posts 261 and 262 got their information, but since neither one of them is a high level black belt, they most likely don't know what they are talking about. Judge Pen can confirm this I am sure, as well as some others.

Confirmed. None of the material that I have tested for was required to be taught at a seminar. Heck, I was almost a 2nd black before I went to a seminar.

Some schools may offer seminars and festivals more often, but there are only 2 a year under my teachers. We, the rank and file, are encouraged to attend, but not required. I usually attend because its respectful to support your teacher and a good way to see people that I don't get to see very often.

[shen ku]

i have also never had to get anything for rank at a seminar?

[shen ku]

i do know that some of the seminar forms may be used later on for rank at some spot, but by that time they have been shown out widely in regular class settings?

[Baqualin]

i do know that some of the seminar forms may be used later on for rank at some spot, but by that time they have been shown out widely in regular class settings?

Most correct response so far.
BQ

[Baqualin]

i have also never had to get anything for rank at a seminar?

Correct.
BQ

[Baqualin]

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/animal-forms-styles/19987-wanted-info-shaolin-do-karate-27.html

post #263 on the thread entitled "wanted: info on Shaolin Do" posted by wonderingsoul says that I am correct in what I say. He even goes on to ask how he can legitimize SD so other styles won't laugh when SD is mentioned. Read it yourself.

Mark,
You still need to learn how to read.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Seminar forms have been added to upper level rank advancement, after the fact...if you didn't attend the seminar...it will be taught in your regular class at no extra charge....by the time you need it.....years later.....example, I need Pakua spear for my next internal test....took the seminar years ago before it was required....I just wanted to learn the form and have a fun day with GM Sin & all the other SD friends.....now I need it and Pakua spear has been taught in regular class ......no extra charge....I know, I helped teach it.
BQ

[kwaichang]

The lethality of a technique is in the way it is trained I have trained in many styles and with many instructors and at this time SD is the most lehal because when I train i train to kill haha just a pun KC

[bodhi warrior]

Anyone know anything about Master Reid? After watching that video, seems like he'd be a stuff sun of a gun to handle.

[shen ku]

master reid is a very nice man (from what time i was around him) he seems to study his art very well, and his skills are another story , just from my limited time i was around him, but most of all, very kind person and real

[Leto]

Depending on what you call a "seminar", the CSC organization in the west does have testing requirements that are taught in the form of seminars or special classes, which are taught once or twice a year on a Sunday. Other extra cost classes will last for an entire month, with four sessions that take place before regular Saturday classes each week. These are mainly the forms for advanced black belts, and are always needed for advancement. These extra classes used to be 40-60 dollars depending on how long they lasted, though the price may have gone up now that the basic prices for all classes have gone up pretty much universally. If you've seen a particular class once, it's half price any other time you go to it.
Brown Belt is the first time this happens, and again for all the black belt levels. I chin ching and san he chin are taught together as a special class twice a year, so you need to take that one before your first brown belt test. 37(64) Yang taichi is taught in this way, once or twice a year. Almost everything required to grade from second black and up is taught in the form of special classes that cost extra on top of normal class fees, including all the hsing i material, all but one of the jian forms, all the hua to's qi gong, the hua fist forms, the drunken forms, etc.

This is where that "rumor" must have come from, because it's true. The masters and some teachers might waive fees for students who are having a hard time, and assistant instuctors who can "work it off". But officially, it costs extra to get the advanced material.

[weakstudent]

can someone give me the history of shaolin-Do

[shen ku]

yes i did know that SCS ran things that way but in truth (or what ever you wish to call it) SCS and SD are different organizations???????? in alot of ways, that they run things, not say that is good or bad just different,,,

[SDJerry]

can someone give me the history of shaolin-Do

Judging by your profile, apparently you're not a very good investigator either if you've made it this far and are still asking :D I kid I kid Just read through this thread and it'll tell ya pretty much everything

[BentMonk]

Leto - I agree with shen ku. Other than GM Sin and similar material SCS and SD have nothing in common. I feel fortunate that things aren't ran the way you described at my SD school. If they were I would not train there. Do you know if new students are told up front that there are extra fees for advancement material? I find this whole practice to be very shady, and that's putting it mildly. I'm honestly surprised anyone is willing to train with them under such conditions.

[brucereiter]

Anyone know anything about Master Reid? After watching that video, seems like he'd be a stuff sun of a gun to handle.

master reid has taught me a great deal about internal martial arts and has been very inspiring to me in my training.

he is a very skilled martial artist and will share his knowledge with anyone who takes the time to ask questions and work.

if any of you are ever in atlanta i would stop by and say hello to him.

[Skummer]

Anyone know anything about Master Reid? After watching that video, seems like he'd be a stuff sun of a gun to handle.

Greetings,

I trained with Master Reid for 8 years. Though I'm no advocate of the Shaolin-do/tao system these days, Reid is very good at what he does, is **** strong, and is a professional athlete. He was a member of the Atlanta Falcons for several years.

He also happens to be a good guy. We held the first ever Atlanta Bullshido throwdown at his school at which one fellow got his head pushed through a wall. Mr. Reid didn't complain or even make us pay for it! :)

[brucereiter]

Leto - I agree with shen ku. Other than GM Sin and similar material SCS and SD have nothing in common. I feel fortunate that things aren't ran the way you described at my SD school. If they were I would not train there. Do you know if new students are told up front that there are extra fees for advancement material? I find this whole practice to be very shady, and that's putting it mildly. I'm honestly surprised anyone is willing to train with them under such conditions.

csc atlanta do not do that. as far as i know it is the schools under the soards only.

[Leto]

Leto - I agree with shen ku. Other than GM Sin and similar material SCS and SD have nothing in common. I feel fortunate that things aren't ran the way you described at my SD school. If they were I would not train there. Do you know if new students are told up front that there are extra fees for advancement material? I find this whole practice to be very shady, and that's putting it mildly. I'm honestly surprised anyone is willing to train with them under such conditions.

Well I agree, it's shady. But they get away with it, I think, because their prices were significantly lower than most other martial arts schools (I don't know what the fees are like now). If you paid for a year in advance, and you went to all the extra classes and seminars that were offered, the overall cost would still be less than some schools' basic membership. I mean, there are places that charge $100 a month for classes, CSC was nowhere near that, even with the seminars added in.
I don't like the format of the seminar for teaching material you're expected to know and test over. How clear an understanding can you really have, by spending one day a year practicing a form? Yes, you can practice and ask questions on your own afterwards. But there's so much other material to work on during class, it comes down to the same old issue: too much material to cover in too little time. And next month there's another seminar form to learn and add into your practice rotation...it would have been nice if they just slowed down. Of course, in the beginning I loved getting so much material and was ready to absorb everything they could throw at me (and I spent 12-20 hours a week in classes).

[kwaichang]

From a business stand point it is quite smart as far as ethical well I dont think so KC

[bodhi warrior]

I always like hearing stories about the old timers like eric smith and bill leonard and bob green. I noticed Master Green specializes in monkey, but we only have a maybe 4 monkey forms, 2 of which were just recently taught. My question is, does anyone know what forms he knows and what his monkey training consists of?

[kwaichang]

The Monkey Forms we know are taught may not be all that were taught to some KC

[mkriii]

Seminar forms have been added to upper level rank advancement, after the fact...if you didn't attend the seminar...it will be taught in your regular class at no extra charge....by the time you need it.....years later.....example, I need Pakua spear for my next internal test....took the seminar years ago before it was required....I just wanted to learn the form and have a fun day with GM Sin & all the other SD friends.....now I need it and Pakua spear has been taught in regular class ......no extra charge....I know, I helped teach it.
BQ


Then why pay the money to learn something that is going to be taught in class? Waste of hard earned money in my oppinion.

[mkriii]

How did the tournament go on Saturday?

[Lamassu]

How did the tournament go on Saturday?

Didn't you go?

[mkriii]

No. I was going to go but the only reason was to meet Baqua and he was not going to be there so I decided not to. Was a fun time?

[Baqualin]

Then why pay the money to learn something that is going to be taught in class? Waste of hard earned money in my oppinion.

The answer was in the post.......PLEASE learn to read....most of the seminar material you will not see for years, it's upper level only....some will never get that high and they might want to learn the form just like you want to learn Tai Chi:D
BQ

[mkriii]

The answer was in the post.......PLEASE learn to read....most of the seminar material you will not see for years, it's upper level only....some will never get that high and they might want to learn the form just like you want to learn Tai Chi:D
BQ


Yes I saw that the answer was in your post, I can read. It was more of a rhetorical question than anything. Kinda expensive for someone who isn't a life member just to learn a form for fun when its going to be taught in class.

Me wanting to learn tai chi is a little different......if John Dufresne were still here in Lexington (and not in China) he would teach it (tai chi) to me either for free or for a very small price. I guess you could say I was a life member. :D But because he is not here anymore I can't learn from him except for when he comes back to visit with us students and ex-wife & kids (maybe 2 times a year). All learning from Dufresne right now is more philosophical talk and talk about fight scenerios right now via the internet and e-mail. :(

[mkriii]

All learning from Dufresne right now is more philosophical talk and talk about fight scenerios right now via the internet and e-mail. :(


When I say training from Dufresne right now is talk about fight scenerios I mean like I will ask questions of what should be done in this situation or what technique would be best in that situation etc...

[Golden Tiger]

No. I was going to go but the only reason was to meet Baqua and he was not going to be there so I decided not to. Was a fun time?

Well, its this weekend so you can still make it. Come on over, you can meet me!

[shen ku]

I would like to meet you golden tiger? and i do mean that in a friendly non-combat kind of way,,,,,

[Golden Tiger]

I would like to meet you golden tiger? and i do mean that in a friendly non-combat kind of way,,,,,

But of course! Stop by and say hello. I will be the one in the black uniform....;)

[shen ku]

:rolleyes: with how many strips??and is your belt solid?

[irontiger1981]

mr shen ku, dude that book is the **** i was just looking at it a few minutes ago (:DTHE ART OF SHEN KU)

[shen ku]

ok so someone knows where i got my name from, it is a crazy book

[BentMonk]

I will be in Lexington this weekend. If you haven't met me, and would like to give me sh!t in person, I'm not hard to spot. Walk on up and say hello.

[shen ku]

bentmonk, i think we have meet but not sure you would remember me, kettlebell class with master dave, just once

[BentMonk]

bentmonk, i think we have meet but not sure you would remember me, kettlebell class with master dave, just once

I remember. Are you still working with KBs? You should go to Master Dave's site and check out the video from the Atlanta Certification he and I attended. The cert is from Steve Cotter's International Kettlebell and Fitness Federation. It was an incredible weekend and I learned a lot!

[shen ku]

still working some with kbs but kind of on a little different focus at the current time. but it all seems to hurt (in a good way)

[BentMonk]

still working some with kbs but kind of on a little different focus at the current time. but it all seems to hurt (in a good way)

That's one of my favorite things about KBs. You can use them in many different ways to achieve different goals. I always have an assortment of minor aches and creaks when I train as well. :D I've increased the amount of my stretching, joint mobility, and Qi Gong exercises. This has helped reduce my creakiness quite a bit. Keep moving. If we stop we might not be able to get started again. Besides, pain is weakness leaving the body right? :D

[shen ku]

than i must have alot of weakness:D,

well i won't be at anything this weekend, i just had a death in the family so all you SD guys enjoy everything for me ,

[brucereiter]

than i must have alot of weakness:D,

well i won't be at anything this weekend, i just had a death in the family so all you SD guys enjoy everything for me ,

my condolences go out to your family

[shen ku]

Thank you so much

[BentMonk]

Shen Ku - Good thoughts and prayers to you and yours sir.

[bodhi warrior]

Found this yesterday. Don't know where their from, but let me say this represents about 90% of the pakua i've seen in SD. Which is unfortunate. I have seen some people who actually do pakua very well but they are few and far between.

[bodhi warrior]

sorry, forgot the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5EmBzdiyxw

[kwaichang]

THey are from Texas Austin SD Dont let the light hearted demo fool you That is not quite the way it is done their either KC

[brucereiter]

THey are from Texas Austin SD Dont let the light hearted demo fool you That is not quite the way it is done their either KC

how is it done then? this looks like a lot of what i have seen for shaolin do all over the country.

[Golden Tiger]

how is it done then? this looks like a lot of what i have seen for shaolin do all over the country.

Posture wise, it was like evereyone else that does it. But I have to agree with KC on this one, it was demo-ized. First, while I am a huge YES fan, the tempo of Roundabout was a little to fast and that seemed to cause the guys to speed through the postures and truncate them. The stances were not done correctly, the hand movements were way too fast and "pulled" and the speed was too fast. M. Joe's Snake and Sword were both good but again, a bit on the fast side. Starship Trooper might have been a better choice for the music ;).

All that said, I have done demo's with music before and when I went back and watched them, I thought the same thing. You are out there, the music is blaring and viola, you speed through the form.

[Judge Pen]

The speed of the form and the height of each step is one of the things that seems to vary the most from school to school from my observations. I have to agree with bodhi warrior, although a lot of SD students pick up some Pa Kua, very few do it well. I don't think most students really put the time and thought into training it the way it should be trained. Unfortunately, for most, it seems to be a "get through" form. To do it well, you need to consistently train it. I thought this demo was a nice cross-section of SD Pa Kua, form the average to the pretty darn good.

And, for the record, I don't hold myself out as an example of good SD pa Kua. I'm probably in the middle with most everyone else. If I'm being critical, then I'm focusing that criticism on myself as well.

[shen ku]

i do know of at least on master that works alot on pakua, but i have never seen him perform it (for the public) but he puts in alot of extra time and study on it, but alot of us in SD are trying to get some of everything we have and fale to get ALL of anything we have. Our strength, is our depth of material. Our weekness, is our depth of material,????????

[Old Noob]

Wasn't it this weekend? I was in Nashville and thought about making the drive up to Lexington but my son wasn't up to it.

[tattooedmonk]

than i must have alot of weakness:D,

well i won't be at anything this weekend, i just had a death in the family so all you SD guys enjoy everything for me ,Our thoughts and prayers are with you , brother.

[tattooedmonk]

sorry, forgot the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5EmBzdiyxw All the moves are there . I think they were just rushed. Many of them were stiff, choppy and lacked the fluid movements normally associated with Ba Gua Zhang. I would like to hear what Bagualin has to say about this demo

[tattooedmonk]

Our weekness, is our depth of material,????????
Bingo!! Nail on the head!:eek::)

[tattooedmonk]

The speed of the form and the height of each step is one of the things that seems to vary the most from school to school from my observations. I have to agree with bodhi warrior, although a lot of SD students pick up some Pa Kua, very few do it well. I don't think most students really put the time and thought into training it the way it should be trained. Unfortunately, for most, it seems to be a "get through" form. To do it well, you need to consistently train it. I thought this demo was a nice cross-section of SD Pa Kua, form the average to the pretty darn good.

And, for the record, I don't hold myself out as an example of good SD pa Kua. I'm probably in the middle with most everyone else. If I'm being critical, then I'm focusing that criticism on myself as well. Well said. I like the little save your @$$ part at the end!!;):D

[iron_leg_dave]

All the moves are there . I think they were just rushed. Many of them were stiff, choppy and lacked the fluid movements normally associated with Ba Gua Zhang. I would like to hear what Bagualin has to say about this demo


I still think it's a joke, there is no way that there are that many people in one place, who are actually literally mentally retarded, and trying to do kung fu.

Is kung fu in the special olympics now?

They had to have been mocking kung fu intentionally.

[bodhi warrior]

Wasn't it this weekend? I was in Nashville and thought about making the drive up to Lexington but my son wasn't up to it.

I went. And all in all it seemed like a good gathering. Good crowd, and good participation. There were a few standouts. First was Master Ben Collins doing skewer the sun sword, very nicely done. Second was a couple of guys doing Hua fist, looked good and very exhausting. Third was this harmon guy doing what looked like a drunken immortal form. Man, that dude is freaking awesome. He really stole the show. Very acrobatic and long form done a hardwood floor. Very impressive.

[Old Noob]

I went. And all in all it seemed like a good gathering. Good crowd, and good participation. There were a few standouts. First was Master Ben Collins doing skewer the sun sword, very nicely done. Second was a couple of guys doing Hua fist, looked good and very exhausting. Third was this harmon guy doing what looked like a drunken immortal form. Man, that dude is freaking awesome. He really stole the show. Very acrobatic and long form done a hardwood floor. Very impressive.

I think he's been on some of the videos that have been posted on this thread. He's a monster from the look of him. I would have like to have been there. Next time perhaps...

[shen ku]

BODHI WARRIOR? might you be someone i know? it says you have trained on and off for 20 years , might that be 23and a half years? just wondering , it something in the way you phrase your statements

[bodhi warrior]

Maybe. Pm me who you think I am and I'll tell you if your right.

[shen ku]

sorry looked at some of your post and your not who i thought but always good to see someone with alot of time in SD on here

[Judge Pen]

I still think it's a joke, there is no way that there are that many people in one place, who are actually literally mentally retarded, and trying to do kung fu.

Is kung fu in the special olympics now?

They had to have been mocking kung fu intentionally.

Nice constructive post.

[BentMonk]

I still think it's a joke, there is no way that there are that many people in one place, who are actually literally mentally retarded, and trying to do kung fu.

Is kung fu in the special olympics now?

They had to have been mocking kung fu intentionally.

This post is tacky and without class. It is in no way a constructive criticism. In an effort to demonstrate to you what constructive criticism is, I offer the following. The form in the video was not a good representation of BaGua. The stepping was too fast and shallow, and the practitioner appeared to have no idea what he was doing with his hands other than going through the motions of the form he was taught. Demo or not, if you're going to get up in front of people and or post your self on the web, you should at least make a genuine attempt to do the form as correctly as possible. All the video shows is that the practitioner lacked any depth of understanding in regards to BaGua. Unfortunately this happens a lot in SD because people focus on the movements just long enough to learn the basic movements, and then they're ready to move on to the next form. This creates a very superficial understanding of what they're doing. This superficial understanding is obvious when they perform the material, and made worse when these people teach others. This is IMO one of the main reasons SD has a poor rep. There are too many people out there with a limited understanding of what they're doing who think they are qualified to teach someone else. I've said it before, this practice breeds mediocrity. All of my forms have been modified to accommodate my disability. However, I still strive to perform them with as much of the originals intent and function as possible. I still try to use solid body mechanics and proper power generation. I may not be able to kick, but I do know how to punch and move correctly. I will be posting some video of myself very soon. Laugh if you will, but I hope to put my money where my mouth is. If you were at the evening demos this past Saturday, you saw me do my version of a 7 star mantis form. Please feel free to post any comments you may have, positive or negative.

[shen ku]

bentmonk, i was not there but i have seen you perform,, and i have seen you fight and i would say to anyone you are solid in your skill and heart for what you do,,,,,,,and i have also judged you before:) oh to pass judgement on others:D

[BentMonk]

bentmonk, i was not there but i have seen you perform,, and i have seen you fight and i would say to anyone you are solid in your skill and heart for what you do,,,,,,,and i have also judged you before:) oh to pass judgement on others:D

Thank you for the kind words. I consider any time I make it through a form without falling a good run. :D I'm not designed for point sparring. I'm more of a take one and give ten kind of guy. lol You weren't passing judgement. You were simply giving your requested opinion. ;)

[shen ku]

no i was not talking about passing judgement on you,,,,,,,,,i was just enjoying being a wise a$$ about judging at events like that,,,,,,,trust me i am no one to be judging anyone

[bodhi warrior]

If you were at the evening demos this past Saturday, you saw me do my version of a 7 star mantis form. Please feel free to post any comments you may have, positive or negative.

I thought your 7 star form looked good. very crisp. As for the point sparring I wouldn't worry about that. Most of the techniques that were landed on you wouldn't hurt a fly, but they still count as points, go figure. It looked to me like you were trying to utilize some grappling when you took people down. Is that something you been working on?

[BentMonk]

no i was not talking about passing judgement on you,,,,,,,,,i was just enjoying being a wise a$$ about judging at events like that,,,,,,,trust me i am no one to be judging anyone

I knew you were joking. I feel the same way about myself when I'm on the judging end. :D

[BentMonk]

I thought your 7 star form looked good. very crisp. As for the point sparring I wouldn't worry about that. Most of the techniques that were landed on you wouldn't hurt a fly, but they still count as points, go figure. It looked to me like you were trying to utilize some grappling when you took people down. Is that something you been working on?

Thank you. I do the point sparring just for the fun of it. Both of my opponents said they did not think they would have had the advantage if we were sparring non-stop. I was bummed that there wasn't a non-stop division this year. That's the format I had been training for. Master Price and Master Randolph have encouraged me to take my opponents to the ground as quickly, and as often as possible. This is an effort to compensate for my lack of balance. I began training long before the BJJ craze. Rather than have me going for arm bars and other submissions, I was taught to take my opponent down and incapacitate them as quickly as possible. Throat, groin, knees, any area that was vulnerable as I went to the ground. Although, maneuvering to my opponent's back and taking them down via the rear naked choke is something I've been drilling since white belt. We just called it the sleeper hold instead. I have friends that are BJJ and MMA players. They are helping me learn to land in side control when I take my opponent to the ground, and working fast submissions from that position. I get a chance to throw on the gloves and spar with some solid contact as well. :D Everyone who trains in a fighting art has experience that can help someone else. I keep an open mind and collect as much knowledge as I can. SD has many effective techniques and many skilled teachers, but just because I live in a library doesn't mean I can't borrow a good book from a friend. ;)

[sammich]

So I am new, but there is a lot of thread posts here to read, and wondered if there was an agreement is shaolin do real, or r you guys just discussing shaolin do now, I don't know about the wolf man guy.

[peace&love]

So I am new, but there is a lot of thread posts here to read, and wondered if there was an agreement is shaolin do real, or r you guys just discussing shaolin do now, I don't know about the wolf man guy.

This thread has been going on for a number of years. I believe we all agree that Shaolin Do is real. It exists. It is a martial arts system/style that is very effective and successful overall. With that in mind it has strengths and weakness as far as curriculum goes, but every organization/style/system does. Those of us who practice Shaolin Do enjoy and find it fulfilling in regards to martial art training. Shaolin Do works on developing one's internal and external skills unlike many other systems which concentrate on just the external. You will hear a lot of positive and negative things about Shaolin Do. I take it with a grain of salt. The "wolf man guy" was a Grandmaster of Shaolin long ago. Not much is truly known about him and much of what we know is legend. This is the same situation with others in lineages. Wong Fei Hung is very well know in relation to Hung Gar, but we truly know very little about him from a historical point of view. It is just the way it is in Chinese Martial Arts. To answer your question, I guess we do a bit of both.

[shen ku]

very well put, peace&love,,, what state do you train in? myself i am in kentucky. have been training just over 23 years and am a 3rd black, and have been teaching for 15 years

[Toby]

Shaolin Do works on developing one's internal and external skills unlike many other systems which concentrate on just the external.I haven't seen any "internal" skills in any SD videos yet. E.g. the bagua recently posted. OTOH it's rare to see many "internal" skills in any online videos. For an example of some stuff that I like that touches on "internal" mechanics, look at the "Waist vs hip, internal discipline" thread on emptyflower. Going through the motions of a form isn't what I'd classify as internal no matter what the origins of the form are, especially when it's obvious the mechanics are wrong.

* Disclaimer - I'm a low-level beginner at "internal" stuff, knowing just enough to know I know nothing.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Toby;885279]I haven't seen any "internal" skills in any SD videos yet. E.g. the bagua recently posted. OTOH it's rare to see many "internal" skills in any online videos. For an example of some stuff that I like that touches on "internal" mechanics, look at the "Waist vs hip, internal discipline" thread on emptyflower. Going through the motions of a form isn't what I'd classify as internal no matter what the origins of the form are, especially when it's obvious the mechanics are wrong.

* Disclaimer - I'm a low-level beginner at "internal" stuff, knowing just enough to know I know nothing.[/QUOT

Constructive post.....you won't see many as you stated......have you seen Bruce Reiter's video post....he specialized in SD internal....all though he has recently moved on to another style of Baqua his foundations are in years of SD.....he's still part of our family.
BQ

[Toby]

Yeah, I've seen Bruce's stuff and communicated with him. We were going to meet one time when he was in my neighbourhood to exchange ideas but he didn't have the time on the day.

I was responding to peace&love's comment that had a veiled implication of SD's superiority due to it teaching internal skills that other systems don't. If you go back over the last couple of pages in this thread you'll see bodhi warrior, bruce, Golden Tiger, Judge Pen, shen ku, tattooedmonk and BentMonk criticising SD's bagua (particularly in the context of that recent video), so I'm not the only one. I've seen a few other videos that show practitioners (some high-ranking ones) of similar quality. Now I'm no bagua student but in relation to my practice there's no structure or mechanics that I'd call internal in anything I've seen there.

There may well be a way to learn internal skills in the SD system, but you'd have to be looking for that and actively seek it out if I'm not mistaken. The average student will learn effectively nothing, some emulated forms, no mechanics, nothing. I'm aware some high-level people specialise in various aspects of SD, so a prospective student might find what they're looking for through them but doing one system that encompasses 100 systems you're not going to get good at any of them. Quoting again:
Our weekness, is our depth of material ...

[Judge Pen]

I was critical because most students do not take the time to really work on internal, but I think the depth of the material is there to the motivated. Most students like the testing and the variety of material (which is there choice). Some students want to focus their training (like bruce and like BQ). I think that the way our system is set up as a curriculim, you can learn a variety of material until you find something that fits you, then you can focus on that with more depth.

It so happens that many people in our system don't chose Pa Kua to focus on.

Forgive the typos or misspellings; the coffee's still brewing. :o

[shen ku]

Our strength, is our depth of material. Our weekness, is our depth of material,????????[/QUOTE]

Why does no one on here ever use all of a quote, as i think most know, or depth of material gives us so much to push for, to pick from, and to work at polishing,,,,,,,,our weekness, is out depth of material,,,,,to many of us just push for more, never pick any thing, and forget to polish,,,,,,,,,

[sean_stonehart]

Our strength, is our depth of material. Our weekness, is our depth of material,????????

Why does no one on here ever use all of a quote, as i think most know, or depth of material gives us so much to push for, to pick from, and to work at polishing,,,,,,,,our weekness, is out depth of material,,,,,to many of us just push for more, never pick any thing, and forget to polish,,,,,,,,,[/QUOTE]

Shen... have you ever developed a taste of Chinese food yet?? :D Just curious...

But to pick on a point ... how can somebody pick something & polish it if there's no basics for "that" except for just SD? For instance... Tiger Crane. It's from Hung Ga... how many people stop everything else, spend the next year or more picking their teacher's brain on Hung Ga basics for conditioning, bridging, striking, horses, energies, etc... ? They can't really. It was just brought in & made SD. Fine well & good, but how can it ever be polished when the base is missing?

Or internal for just Chen taiji... how many people work on rooting, silk reeling, basic postures and conditioning before the set is ever learned? Same there... it's not polishable IMO since the basics were skipped for the set & then you move on.

It'd be one thing if SD had all the basic training & each person learned starting with the basics for that "X" and continued on that "X" the way "X" is done by the rest of the world that practices "X" the same way. Sd doesn't, so the polish won't ever be there since the foundation of "X" isn't necessarily the foundation SD uses. It'll always be SD's take on "X" & will always look that way. It doesn't mean it can't be made to work, but it may not be working the way "X" is supposed to.

[mkriii]

Sean, thats a very good post. I agree with you 100%. If you don't have the basics then how can you polish your skills? You can't. Basically it's a hodge podge of this and that.:)

[Baqualin]

Yeah, I've seen Bruce's stuff and communicated with him. We were going to meet one time when he was in my neighbourhood to exchange ideas but he didn't have the time on the day.

I was responding to peace&love's comment that had a veiled implication of SD's superiority due to it teaching internal skills that other systems don't. If you go back over the last couple of pages in this thread you'll see bodhi warrior, bruce, Golden Tiger, Judge Pen, shen ku, tattooedmonk and BentMonk criticising SD's bagua (particularly in the context of that recent video), so I'm not the only one.

They didn't criticise SD's Baqua (not really SD's Baqua but a common form) only that person's ability.....we're given the tools....he hasn't used them.


I've seen a few other videos that show practitioners (some high-ranking ones) of similar quality. Now I'm no bagua student but in relation to my practice there's no structure or mechanics that I'd call internal in anything I've seen there.

I agree



There may well be a way to learn internal skills in the SD system, but you'd have to be looking for that and actively seek it out if I'm not mistaken.

Isn't that what we all do? Your into the internal....didn't you seek that out? The advantage of SD is not superiority, but the opportunity to see various systems and decide which you would like to pursue


The average student will learn effectively nothing, some emulated forms, no mechanics, nothing.

I'm an Internal Instructor for SD...that's all I teach and all I study....the students are constantly drilled on structure and biomechanics (your knees will suffer without this).
I could go on and on about our Internal program, but you probally get my point as I also get yours.....there's more to SD than meets the eye

I'm aware some high-level people specialise in various aspects of SD, so a prospective student might find what they're looking for through them but doing one system that encompasses 100 systems you're not going to get good at any of them.

No one would disagree with this....once again it's the opportunity to read a menu and order what you like.

You seemed to have a dedication to the internal.....great me too!!! most students of any martial art could give a sh!t...it's only the exercise & stress relief that they care about....the 100 systems keeps them from being bored

Not superiority...opportunity
BQ

Quoting again:
kjf;lgjdfkl;agadklg

[brucereiter]

[QUOTE=Toby;885279.he's still part of our family.
BQ

:-)

[Judge Pen]

if your teacher hasn't taken the time to pick up the depth of training in part of SD's curriculim, but you want to focus on that material, then you find another teacher. In or outside the system. If you're happy with what your teacher can show you, then you stay.

[MasterKiller]

Sean, thats a very good post. I agree with you 100%. If you don't have the basics then how can you polish your skills? You can't. Basically it's a hodge podge of this and that.:) Isn't your system also a hodgepodge of this and that?
A little Five Animal, a little Tai Chi, a little Bagua...?

[Baqualin]

Why does no one on here ever use all of a quote, as i think most know, or depth of material gives us so much to push for, to pick from, and to work at polishing,,,,,,,,our weekness, is out depth of material,,,,,to many of us just push for more, never pick any thing, and forget to polish,,,,,,,,,

Shen... have you ever developed a taste of Chinese food yet?? :D Just curious...

But to pick on a point ... how can somebody pick something & polish it if there's no basics for "that" except for just SD? For instance... Tiger Crane. It's from Hung Ga... how many people stop everything else, spend the next year or more picking their teacher's brain on Hung Ga basics for conditioning, bridging, striking, horses, energies, etc... ? They can't really. It was just brought in & made SD. Fine well & good, but how can it ever be polished when the base is missing?

Or internal for just Chen taiji... how many people work on rooting, silk reeling, basic postures and conditioning before the set is ever learned? Same there... it's not polishable IMO since the basics were skipped for the set & then you move on.

Everyone in my classes....BQ

It'd be one thing if SD had all the basic training & each person learned starting with the basics for that "X" and continued on that "X" the way "X" is done by the rest of the world that practices "X" the same way. Sd doesn't, so the polish won't ever be there since the foundation of "X" isn't necessarily the foundation SD uses. It'll always be SD's take on "X" & will always look that way. It doesn't mean it can't be made to work, but it may not be working the way "X" is supposed to.[/QUOTE]

Your speaking in generalities from the one school you had experience with.

[sean_stonehart]

Or internal for just Chen taiji... how many people work on rooting, silk reeling, basic postures and conditioning before the set is ever learned? Same there... it's not polishable IMO since the basics were skipped for the set & then you move on.

Everyone in my classes....BQ


Ok maybe so... but just asking... how long did you sit & do just basics for Chen that are specific for Chen only?



It'd be one thing if SD had all the basic training & each person learned starting with the basics for that "X" and continued on that "X" the way "X" is done by the rest of the world that practices "X" the same way. Sd doesn't, so the polish won't ever be there since the foundation of "X" isn't necessarily the foundation SD uses. It'll always be SD's take on "X" & will always look that way. It doesn't mean it can't be made to work, but it may not be working the way "X" is supposed

Your speaking in generalities from the one school you had experience with.

Well yes & no. I'm speaking from the one school I had experience with & from what I've seen from students from other schools including out west & Ky as well.

I'm just commenting about the polish (look, feel, execution, etc...) of techniques for forms that SD has in the curriculum. If I were to try to do a 7* mantis form, it'd look like somebody doing a 7* Mantis form with no grounding in 7* mantis, but something else instead. But it doesn't take away the fact I could hit hard with it, but I wouldn't be using Mantis basics to do it, I'd be using CLF. I'd miss the little things that make it Mantis.

Same thing with SD & the forms it's incorporated at least on the external side of the fence. I can talk with a little more certainty there. Many many many things are missed in the incorporated forms because either the basics weren't learned or weren't taught because they didn't run parallel to the basics taught for SD as a whole and would cause a disconnect in the techniques.

[sean_stonehart]

if your teacher hasn't taken the time to pick up the depth of training in part of SD's curriculim, but you want to focus on that material, then you find another teacher. In or outside the system. If you're happy with what your teacher can show you, then you stay.

That's all very true for each of us.

[Baqualin]

Ok maybe so... but just asking... how long did you sit & do just basics for Chen that are specific for Chen only?

I usually do about 15 to 20 min. of chen specific exercises before we start working on the form (small sections) then as we go through the section I will point out where the silk reeling, compressing, coiling, fai jing they learned from the exercises are in the form, where it's coming from..and the intent...also just standing to acheive proper posture and to feel their weight distribution and foot contact to the ground.....with Baqua alot of just stepping and palm changes....it will take me a year + to teach the chen form properly...then it's up to them where they take it BQ


Well yes & no. I'm speaking from the one school I had experience with & from what I've seen from students from other schools including out west & Ky as well.

Your generally correct with your observations......most students don't follow the program and don't care

I'm just commenting about the polish (look, feel, execution, etc...) of techniques for forms that SD has in the curriculum. If I were to try to do a 7* mantis form, it'd look like somebody doing a 7* Mantis form with no grounding in 7* mantis, but something else instead. But it doesn't take away the fact I could hit hard with it, but I wouldn't be using Mantis basics to do it, I'd be using CLF. I'd miss the little things that make it Mantis.

good point

Same thing with SD & the forms it's incorporated at least on the external side of the fence. I can talk with a little more certainty there. Many many many things are missed in the incorporated forms because either the basics weren't learned or weren't taught because they didn't run parallel to the basics taught for SD as a whole and would cause a disconnect in the techniques.

Very true

A lot of the basics for external are common to each system (somewhat in the internal also....rooting is rooting)......good topic for discussion eh:)

[bodhi warrior]

I think that the beginning material up through brown belt offer a very good foundation for the brown belt material and some of the black belt material (hua fist, black tiger). When GM sin started teaching the eight drunken immortals there were alot of strength training, post training to go with learning the forms.

BQ, you say you teach silkreeling, etc. Did you get these outside of SD or were they taught be sin the'? Because when I learned yang taichi and pakua from him these types of training methods were not taught. Just curious.

[bodhi warrior]

I also received a very extensive breathing meditation class from GM sin. It included standing, sitted, and lying meditation. As anyone knows meditation is a cornerstone of internal training, standing especially.

[Toby]

One thing SD obviously doesn't teach is quote-fu. Holy shit guys, some of the posts on the last page are painful :D .

BQ, the problem is that a prospective student to SD won't know in advance which teachers are like you, Bruce, etc and have concentrated on a particular aspect. So he/she might sign up at a school where they think they're going to learn something, but end up with a teacher like the ones on the videos. IMHO you're not going to learn much if your teacher never learned it. So it becomes a matter of choosing between particular teachers/schools of SD if you want to learn a specific thing in the same way that we all have to choose between particular teachers/schools. If the teacher at a branch doesn't have a skill then that whole branch will lose it in subsequent generations.

And of course it's mildly offensive to me that my whole system is treated as a stepping-stone in a belt/sash progression. That's kind of annoying. How can something that's so difficult for me concentrating solely on be learned by someone amongst other things in a < 1yr timespan and they then say "Oh yeah, I've learned x"? No, you haven't. It's more difficult than that. You've learned some vague movements, that's it. (generic "you")

[peace&love]

Yeah, I've seen Bruce's stuff and communicated with him. We were going to meet one time when he was in my neighbourhood to exchange ideas but he didn't have the time on the day.

I was responding to peace&love's comment that had a veiled implication of SD's superiority due to it teaching internal skills that other systems don't. If you go back over the last couple of pages in this thread you'll see bodhi warrior, bruce, Golden Tiger, Judge Pen, shen ku, tattooedmonk and BentMonk criticising SD's bagua (particularly in the context of that recent video), so I'm not the only one. I've seen a few other videos that show practitioners (some high-ranking ones) of similar quality. Now I'm no bagua student but in relation to my practice there's no structure or mechanics that I'd call internal in anything I've seen there.

There may well be a way to learn internal skills in the SD system, but you'd have to be looking for that and actively seek it out if I'm not mistaken. The average student will learn effectively nothing, some emulated forms, no mechanics, nothing. I'm aware some high-level people specialise in various aspects of SD, so a prospective student might find what they're looking for through them but doing one system that encompasses 100 systems you're not going to get good at any of them. Quoting again:

It was not my intention to imply that SD was superior in any way to other systems or styles. I believe true kung fu training should include the internal arts. SD provides that training and I believe that is great. Many kung fu schools have gotten away from the internal arts and I believe that's a shame and unfortunate. Fortunately, there are other schools who do teach the internal arts, but not as many as there use to be. Perhaps it is simply supply and demand. I think it is great that any school continues internal arts training whether they are SD or not. I trained for years in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut and we also spent time working on Chi Kung training. A lot of schools simply do not do that and I believe they are missing out. Simply, to each their own.

[peace&love]

very well put, peace&love,,, what state do you train in? myself i am in kentucky. have been training just over 23 years and am a 3rd black, and have been teaching for 15 years

I train in Tennessee. I have also trained in KY primarily through seminars with Master Seng Au from Hawaii.

[Baqualin]

One thing SD obviously doesn't teach is quote-fu. Holy **** guys, some of the posts on the last page are painful :D .

BQ, the problem is that a prospective student to SD won't know in advance which teachers are like you, Bruce, etc and have concentrated on a particular aspect. So he/she might sign up at a school where they think they're going to learn something, but end up with a teacher like the ones on the videos. IMHO you're not going to learn much if your teacher never learned it. So it becomes a matter of choosing between particular teachers/schools of SD if you want to learn a specific thing in the same way that we all have to choose between particular teachers/schools. If the teacher at a branch doesn't have a skill then that whole branch will lose it in subsequent generations.

I can't argue with that....it will always be a problem when there's 100's of schools spread out all over the country...no matter the style.....plus most students really don't care....their not like you or me

And of course it's mildly offensive to me that my whole system is treated as a stepping-stone in a belt/sash progression. That's kind of annoying. How can something that's so difficult for me concentrating solely on be learned by someone amongst other things in a < 1yr timespan and they then say "Oh yeah, I've learned x"? No, you haven't. It's more difficult than that. You've learned some vague movements, that's it. (generic "you")

I hear you but, don't take things so personal.......the internal will teach you this;)
BQ

sdkcjwergnerj

[Baqualin]

I think that the beginning material up through brown belt offer a very good foundation for the brown belt material and some of the black belt material (hua fist, black tiger). When GM sin started teaching the eight drunken immortals there were alot of strength training, post training to go with learning the forms.

BQ, you say you teach silkreeling, etc. Did you get these outside of SD or were they taught be sin the'? Because when I learned yang taichi and pakua from him these types of training methods were not taught. Just curious.

From discussions & working with GMS and other upper level masters in the systems that love the internal (GMS, EML, EMM, EMS, MR, & MBC)....GMS doesn't call it by the common names he just explains the mechanics....the actual exercises I brought in for Chen....via GMS encouraging research.......he gives us all the tools...it's up to us to learn how to use them

[Judge Pen]

And of course it's mildly offensive to me that my whole system is treated as a stepping-stone in a belt/sash progression. That's kind of annoying. How can something that's so difficult for me concentrating solely on be learned by someone amongst other things in a < 1yr timespan and they then say "Oh yeah, I've learned x"? No, you haven't. It's more difficult than that. You've learned some vague movements, that's it. (generic "you")

You should be used to it. Internal arts, taiji, xing yi, and ba gua, are getting added on to many kung fu schools where there teacher (some very well respected teachers) don't really have a background in them, but they are catering to the market. More so in taiji, but the others are becoming more common as well.

But to address SD, if you are talking about the core teaching progression, the internal shouldn't be taught until they are an advanced student. I wasn't taught any tai chi until I was a first black (which took me 3 years). At that time, my teacher would refer to SD teachers that specilize in internal arts, such as Eric Smith, as a reference in SD. At that time, there was no other tai chi in my area. The internet wasn't a major factor. I couldn't look things up for myself very easily. Now things are different. I think students are much more savvy and that's good for SD. It forces teachers to improve their teaching and to train harder themselves because there are so many other options. Hopefully, many of the shortfall we discuss here will be corrected by the next generation of SD intructors It sounds as if they can follow BQ's example.

[kwaichang]

Martial Art is a personal journey much of what is taught is never absorbed in the physical manifestation of the art studying. If the teacher gives all the answers then there is no self discovery , thus you are doing something instead of experiencing somthing. Basics are taught in SD They are not stressed as long as I feel they should be but what student of today will do stance training for 6 months or a year?? Also many that do work on the nuances of the Internal arts do not post. Likewise there is the X that you compare it to is also possibly not completely accurate as well. Remember if you are looking for a particular mechanical application of a technique , everyone will do it different and with different emphasis. Not to say the basics arent there, they are just at different levels for different people. Some are good kickers and some punchers. KC

[Toby]

But to address SD, if you are talking about the core teaching progression, the internal shouldn't be taught until they are an advanced student.I just don't understand how a SD student can ever think they'll learn enough of one art with the amount of material in the whole system. E.g. components of my style are taught in the progression from "2nd degree black belt" to "3rd degree black belt". There are 16 "katas" that have to be completed to make that "belt progression". Along with that presumably a student would have to train all the stuff they've learned to get to "2nd degree black belt". I mean, it's just not possible to be even competent at any of the stuff you're supposed to know. Unless, you reach a level where you decide to concentrate on one aspect, like Bruce and maybe others (BQ?). But then IMHO you're not doing SD any more, because you're neglecting other aspects that don't interest you but which are still part of the system and that you should probably excel at in order to be a high-level SD practitioner. It's a bit hard for me to explain what I mean but you probably get the gist of it.

A parallel analogy - in my case I learned a style (WC) and spent a fair amount of time doing it but my skills are rusty at best and I wouldn't necessarily call myself a WC student any more although I still regularly practise it. 95% of my training time is spent on another style now though so it's not fair for me to be a WC student. Even e.g. my teacher is the keeper of a different style, but he rarely practises it so he is reluctant to call himself that any more.

[Toby]

Basics are taught in SD They are not stressed as long as I feel they should be but what student of today will do stance training for 6 months or a year??Even our higher level WC students do "qigong" exercises every session in the warmup (or used to when I last attended group classes). I try to stand in san ti for 10min pretty much every day from when I first learned it. It's still changing constantly. I very much like it and IMHO it's very important. You can do other things too (i.e. not solely stance training for 6/12mths), but keeping up the stance training is good for the mind, body and soul IMHO. Even for much, much longer than 6/12mths.


Martial Art is a personal journey much of what is taught is never absorbed in the physical manifestation of the art studying. If the teacher gives all the answers then there is no self discovery , thus you are doing something instead of experiencing somthing.Yeah, but if the teacher doesn't have the answers in the first place (as I suspect many SD masters don't), then they won't be able to point the students in the right direction to discover the answers for themselves.


Likewise there is the X that you compare it to is also possibly not completely accurate as well. Remember if you are looking for a particular mechanical application of a technique , everyone will do it different and with different emphasis. Not to say the basics arent there, they are just at different levels for different people. Some are good kickers and some punchers.Yeah, I accept this. I have preconceived ideas, everyone does. OK, from my perspective when I see "internal" videos, I expect to see people move from their dan tien. I want to see body movement, I want to see coordination, I want to see strong structure. Some of those guys walking the circle a couple of pages back looked like they were going for a stroll in the park. That'd be OK if you walked in the park with "internal" structure but I didn't see that. Simple example (but my words will suck) - if you're just standing there and you lift one leg up do you just kind of lift it up using predominantly your quadricep? Or do you lift it up by (amongst other things) pulling it up through your dan tien (i.e. using your trunk/core that you've worked long and hard to develop via "internal" exercises to do most of the work, kinda like doing a standing crunch)? It might produce a similar effect (your leg is lifted), and if you are subtle about it a bystander might struggle to tell the difference, but with time it can create a massive difference in structure/power/body unity (IMHO).

[Judge Pen]

I just don't understand how a SD student can ever think they'll learn enough of one art with the amount of material in the whole system. E.g. components of my style are taught in the progression from "2nd degree black belt" to "3rd degree black belt". There are 16 "katas" that have to be completed to make that "belt progression". Along with that presumably a student would have to train all the stuff they've learned to get to "2nd degree black belt". I mean, it's just not possible to be even competent at any of the stuff you're supposed to know. Unless, you reach a level where you decide to concentrate on one aspect, like Bruce and maybe others (BQ?). But then IMHO you're not doing SD any more, because you're neglecting other aspects that don't interest you but which are still part of the system and that you should probably excel at in order to be a high-level SD practitioner. It's a bit hard for me to explain what I mean but you probably get the gist of it.

A parallel analogy - in my case I learned a style (WC) and spent a fair amount of time doing it but my skills are rusty at best and I wouldn't necessarily call myself a WC student any more although I still regularly practise it. 95&#37; of my training time is spent on another style now though so it's not fair for me to be a WC student. Even e.g. my teacher is the keeper of a different style, but he rarely practises it so he is reluctant to call himself that any more.
Most (98%) never will reach the levels you are talking about :eek: The ones that do really have dedicated more time then I will ever have. But, even then, they are still doing SD because that is still their core. They focus on other things, but their core is still short form and the core long sets that comprise the base material.

I have "progressed" to the "next belt" through your internal art. I understand the rudimentary elements of it, but I'll never be arrogant enough to say that I understand it as well as someone who trains in hsing ie exclusively. We could share ideas, but I am still a novice compared to others. So unless I take time to really break it down, I would say I have a background or an introduction to the movements, postures, training methods, and internal concepts but nothing more. I would be a beginner at best in your style. But here's the thing:

SD builds upon all these different concepts. One of the biggest reasons it lacks certain flavor is that it merges with everything else. My Hua looks different in certain areas because I probably unconsciously try to infuse my hsing ie with it. Everything any SD student does is mixed to some degree with short form. Does that make our Hua "real" Yes and no. It is not pure the way someone who simply learned Hua and nothing else from a teacher that only taught hua. It's the form; its the concepts, but the expression of it has been combined with other things of SD. Some will say this is bad, some will say its good. It is. And it works. An equally dedicated SD person with the same amount of training will match up well against any traditionally trained student of equal training in one art. In the end, it will be the individual that determines the outcome, but there will be no difference in martial skill and training only the intangible things that we each carry with us.

You can watch me fight, and my personal style is very different from my teacher's. Watching us fight, you might think we were trained differently (although there's only a difference in overall skill--in his favor of course) but you wouldn't think that we necessarily trained in the same art. Because what works for me and my limitations do not necessarily work for him. As Shen Ku said the strength of SD is the amount of material. The weakness of SD is the amount of material. It is good and bad. But it works if the person is dedicated.

[Toby]

The part I don't get is once you reach a certain level surely you'd have worked out your preferences by that stage and you'd steer towards a certain path. And SD's curriculum alone wouldn't be sufficient to further you along that path (because its tendency is to give you a small taste of so many things). So it might be a great style for beginners, but for advanced SD students (a lot of whom have posted in the last 3-odd pages) I don't get why you wouldn't gravitate towards a more specific art. Sounds like BQ is supplementing his SD, I know Bruce has (I had a similar discussion with him at one stage while he was still SD), I know you have enough experience to be in the category of student I'm picturing JP. Why don't you guys become e.g. a pure bagua student, a pure taiji student, a pure hsing i student, a pure black tiger student, etc, etc? And to do so would probably require looking outside your SD system and specialising?

I'm thinking of the analogy of SD == high school where you get a broad taste of lots of material, then you go to university/college to specialise in your subject of choice. You could stay at a local community college and supplement your learning on your own (totally possible in the academia analogy), but to get optimal results you could seek out the elite and learn/interact directly with them.

I dunno, I realise it's all opinion and no-one's going to change anyone's mind. I just view things from my perspective and in a good week I'll get 20hrs in and in an average week 10-14hrs and it's just not enough for basically the 5 elements, that's pretty much what I concentrate on in solo training. Couple of animals to mix it up sometimes and some "qigong" exercises. I couldn't comprehend trying to advance my WC significantly and I could possibly have access to a tiger system and a monkey system as well if I begged. Not possible IMHO, I'd have to drop something to learn something else. But it obviously works for you guys.

[Judge Pen]

The part I don't get is once you reach a certain level surely you'd have worked out your preferences by that stage and you'd steer towards a certain path. And SD's curriculum alone wouldn't be sufficient to further you along that path (because its tendency is to give you a small taste of so many things). So it might be a great style for beginners, but for advanced SD students (a lot of whom have posted in the last 3-odd pages) I don't get why you wouldn't gravitate towards a more specific art. Sounds like BQ is supplementing his SD, I know Bruce has (I had a similar discussion with him at one stage while he was still SD), I know you have enough experience to be in the category of student I'm picturing JP. Why don't you guys become e.g. a pure bagua student, a pure taiji student, a pure hsing i student, a pure black tiger student, etc, etc? And to do so would probably require looking outside your SD system and specialising?

I'm thinking of the analogy of SD == high school where you get a broad taste of lots of material, then you go to university/college to specialise in your subject of choice. You could stay at a local community college and supplement your learning on your own (totally possible in the academia analogy), but to get optimal results you could seek out the elite and learn/interact directly with them.

I dunno, I realise it's all opinion and no-one's going to change anyone's mind. I just view things from my perspective and in a good week I'll get 20hrs in and in an average week 10-14hrs and it's just not enough for basically the 5 elements, that's pretty much what I concentrate on in solo training. Couple of animals to mix it up sometimes and some "qigong" exercises. I couldn't comprehend trying to advance my WC significantly and I could possibly have access to a tiger system and a monkey system as well if I begged. Not possible IMHO, I'd have to drop something to learn something else. But it obviously works for you guys.

I've been doing SD for almost 20 years. I keep doing it for a number or reasons: Because it works for me. Because I don't feel that I have to do pure bagua or pure tai chi or pure whatever to feel like I can take the principles from more than one and make it all part of my own. Because there's limited alternatives where I am located. Because my lifestyle limits my commitment to training right now. Because I am loyal to teachers that have treated me well and given me ample leeway to make my own path. It's not like I always tow the party line here--many things I have said are contrary to SD's history, but I've never once been criticized for it (at least as far as I know).

I stopped doing SD for a few years in college and law school. I tinkered with some jiujitsu and aikido but I really felt like my training at SD was very good so I went back with full knowledge as to what I was getting into. It's a very good, very applicaple art when trained properly. Trust me, I wouldn't keep doing an art that was this controversial if I didn't feel it had real value.

There is a "tai chi, ba gua and hsing Ie" teacher here in Knoxville. I've checked out his school and I wasnt' impressed with their structure, training or abilities. I've thought about doing some cross training in aikido (because the teacher here is no frills and hard-core even with aikido) and comparing/contrasting that with my Ba Gua practice. But right now, I need to get off the forum and get back to work. :)

[Toby]

I've been doing SD for almost 20 years. I keep doing it for a number or reasons: ...Fair enough. I'm not trying to change your mind, nor any other SD student's. There are just a lot of things about SD that I can't understand, which probably reflects on me not necessarily on SD.


But right now, I need to get off the forum and get back to work. :)And I've got to train :) .

Anyway, most of you currently active SD guys are too nice to argue with. I liked the glory days of SD advocates like themeecer, the early days of this thread.

[naja]

I do SD for some of the same reasons JP does, though I've only been in it for a little over one year. I've thought about cross training, but my options are limited in this area, and so is my funding, so I stick with SD.

I find that I enjoy it more when I can put extra time into practicing on my own. But time is limited, and I can see where someone of another style that has less to keep up with can focus more on those things in and out of class. But I've already noticed that I am drawn towards certain aspects of it and others do nothing for me. I can choose to focus on my strong points while working on strengthening my weak areas.

[shen ku]

just curious what is you favorit uniform to train in, or what type of conditions do you prefer which type for, or do you prefer one for different forms or styles??

[shen ku]

also, prefer barefoot training or shoes and if sheos what style and why?