Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BentMonk]

just curious what is you favorit uniform to train in, or what type of conditions do you prefer which type for, or do you prefer one for different forms or styles??

I wear my gi and wrestling shoes to formal SD classes. I prefer the gi over the frog button because of durability while sparring hard. I need the shoes for stability. When training informally I wear an Under Armor type shirt, gi bottoms and my wrestling shoes.

[naja]

also, prefer barefoot training or shoes and if sheos what style and why?

Barefoot all the way. Except when it's cold out. Then I wear the cheap Feiyue Martial Arts shoes.

[Judge Pen]

We all should train in jeans/slacks, t-shirt and street shoes. If I can't move in regular clothes, then what good is it?

I always wear shoes now after I injured a ligment in my foot. I like cuffed bottom pants so they don't get down around the heels.

[bakxierboxer]

We all should train in jeans/slacks, t-shirt and street shoes. If I can't move in regular clothes, then what good is it?

That was "the usual" "uniform" for the day-to-day classes in my old schools for the same reasons. :)



... I like cuffed bottom pants so they don't get down around the heels.
That last is normally "taken care of" by actually having a waist that's smaller in diameter than your hips.... which leaves a place for your belt to rest on and hold those pants up. :D

[Baqualin]

that was "the usual" "uniform" for the day-to-day classes in my old schools for the same reasons. :)



that last is normally "taken care of" by actually having a waist that's smaller in diameter than your hips.... Which leaves a place for your belt to rest on and hold those pants up. :d

nice!!!!:d

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nude and oiled, that's the way to go, if it works when you are naked and oiled up lady a porn star, you know its gonna work all the time !!

[bakxierboxer]

nice!!!!:d

Thank you, kind sir!
(JPs photo(?) doesn't seem to indicate that he actually has this problem.....)

[peace&love]

I like to train in jogging pants or shorts and a T shirt. I usually do my forms before or after running a few miles. I will change from my running shoes to traditional martial arts shoes. When going to formal class, we usually where whatever as long as it is not restrictive or hinder movement for circuit training, forms, sparring, etc. In formal class, I do prefer martial arts pants. As far as competition goes, I like my old Southern styles uniform made by Jonie without the sleeves. I feel more mobile in the arms and it feels more comfortable while competing.

Did any of the SD guys out there make it to GM The's seminar in Johnson City? If so, how did it go?

[naja]

Did any of the SD guys out there make it to GM The's seminar in Johnson City? If so, how did it go?

I meant to show up for the tai chi section, but got caught up doing yard work and the likes...

I'm sure I'll here about how it went, and what I missed out on Tuesday night at class.

[bakxierboxer]

Nude and oiled, that's the way to go, if it works when you are naked and oiled up lady a porn star, you know its gonna work all the time !!

Aaaaaaaaaah, I hate to point this out, but yer so excited by your "vision" that yer fingers are getting tongue-tied.

[Judge Pen]

Thank you, kind sir!
(JPs photo(?) doesn't seem to indicate that he actually has this problem.....)

Not yet, but the draw string pants do loosen up a bit which makes them a little long later in the workout.

[shen ku]

man where did everybody go???????

[naja]

man where did everybody go???????

DUDE! we're all off training!!! :D

[shen ku]

i believe that?? more like you got caught on here at work and had to stay off ??

[naja]

:eek:

my secret has been revealed!!!!!

;)

[Baqualin]

Is anybody out there???

[naja]

Is anybody out there???

just me, baby..... just me.....


:D

[Baqualin]

just me, baby..... just me.....


:D

Just trying to keep it going.....Johnson City......good Smallmouth fishing around you:)
BQ

[naja]

Just trying to keep it going.....Johnson City......good Smallmouth fishing around you:)
BQ

:eek::mad::rolleyes:


:confused:

[Baqualin]

:eek::mad::rolleyes:


:confused:

I guess you don't fish:cool:
BQ

[naja]

I guess you don't fish:cool:
BQ

No, I don't. Work with a guy that ties flys though..... http://www.jibblers.com/Home.htm

I tell him the name sounds like a porno site, I don't know why I think that......

[sean_stonehart]

Smallies in the JC area?? Cool... Didn't know that.

[shen ku]

there is always good fishing in my area,,,,,,i just don't care if i catch any or not
i just like getting out there

[Baqualin]

Smallies in the JC area?? Cool... Didn't know that.

All the lakes and rivers in east Tenn. are full of big smallies....actually all the Tenn. River drainage including lakes are full of big smallies......I've fished the Holsten & Nolichucki (not sure about spelling) rivers and had a blast...their not to far from JC.
BQ

[Baqualin]

there is always good fishing in my area,,,,,,i just don't care if i catch any or not
i just like getting out there

Me too!:):):):)

[Baqualin]

No, I don't. Work with a guy that ties flys though..... http://www.jibblers.com/Home.htm

I tell him the name sounds like a porno site, I don't know why I think that......

I can see that:cool:

[sean_stonehart]

All the lakes and rivers in east Tenn. are full of big smallies....actually all the Tenn. River drainage including lakes are full of big smallies......I've fished the Holsten & Nolichucki (not sure about spelling) rivers and had a blast...their not to far from JC.
BQ

Never had a chacne to do any fishing in that area. Mentioned once to JP, but then we just never got around to it. Where he used to live, you could see the French Broad from his front yard. We just didn't make it over there.

[Baqualin]

Lots of really nice water there & here.....canoe & wading are my favorites...18 inch smallies blowing out of the water right next to you will wake you up (use a Tai Chi step when your stalking in the water).:D

[naja]

All the lakes and rivers in east Tenn. are full of big smallies....actually all the Tenn. River drainage including lakes are full of big smallies......I've fished the Holsten & Nolichucki (not sure about spelling) rivers and had a blast...their not to far from JC.
BQ

yea, each of those rivers are about 20 mins from JC.

I wouldn't actually eat anything out of the holston though, it's got high mercury levels in it.

[Baqualin]

yea, each of those rivers are about 20 mins from JC.

I wouldn't actually eat anything out of the holston though, it's got high mercury levels in it.

Yes it does....but their fun to catch. Mercury's a big problem everywhere.

[Judge Pen]

Never had a chacne to do any fishing in that area. Mentioned once to JP, but then we just never got around to it. Where he used to live, you could see the French Broad from his front yard. We just didn't make it over there.

That was the coolest place I've ever lived. An old 5 room elementary school with a full size hard-wood floor gym. The cafeteria was converted to a studio apartment. You could see the smokies and the french broad river from the front steps. Too bad I didn't own it.

[sean_stonehart]

That was the coolest place I've ever lived. An old 5 room elementary school with a full size hard-wood floor gym. The cafeteria was converted to a studio apartment. You could see the smokies and the french broad river from the front steps. Too bad I didn't own it.

No joke... if (all) things were different, I'd consider it for a move. That place was uber cool.

[Baqualin]

That was the coolest place I've ever lived. An old 5 room elementary school with a full size hard-wood floor gym. The cafeteria was converted to a studio apartment. You could see the smokies and the french broad river from the front steps. Too bad I didn't own it.

WOW...if you still had that I might come a train under you:D
BQ

[sean_stonehart]

The place was the bomb. The only downer was the gym wasn't heated that I recall.

[Baqualin]

The place was the bomb. The only downer was the gym wasn't heated that I recall.

That's easy to fix....sounds like one hell of a place for meditation.
BQ

[sean_stonehart]

That's easy to fix....sounds like one hell of a place for meditation.
BQ

I think I've got a pic of the outside of the school on my Facebook page. I know I've got a couple of pics looking out at the Smokey's from there.

[Judge Pen]

The owner sold his house and is renovating the full school as his residence and a community center. If that place ever goes on sale, I'm bidding on it. You should look it up on google earth: 7009 thorngrove pike knoxville tennessee

[sanjuro_ronin]

I really thought that you guys would be at the 10K mark by now, just 9,700 ?
Pussies !

[sean_stonehart]

The owner sold his house and is renovating the full school as his residence and a community center. If that place ever goes on sale, I'm bidding on it. You should look it up on google earth: 7009 thorngrove pike knoxville tennessee

I'll help you move if I can have one of classrooms as a set aside for me!!

[Baqualin]

The owner sold his house and is renovating the full school as his residence and a community center. If that place ever goes on sale, I'm bidding on it. You should look it up on google earth: 7009 thorngrove pike knoxville tennessee

I'll come down and help you teach an internal class:D:D:D:D

[Baqualin]

I really thought that you guys would be at the 10K mark by now, just 9,700 ?
Pussies !

We're working on it....keep helping us....been kinda mellow lately......everybodies working out so we won't be pussies:eek:

[Baqualin]

I really thought that you guys would be at the 10K mark by now, just 9,700 ?
Pussies !

Do you still practice Chen or just roll on the ground now.
BQ

[shen ku]

anyone elsa on here from central ky

[Baqualin]

anyone elsa on here from central ky

Me.........:):D:cool::eek:
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

Just watched the whole ket series that Sin and Hiang put out around '81, and I'd like to make some comments.
First, I was really impressed with Sin and Hiang's breaking skills. The hanging brick break by Sin was explosive! Hiang's breaking was very powerful also. Then there was Bill leonard, who isn't the best forms performer, but very powerful and strong. Then there's Eric Smith. He really impressed me. His sword and spear forms were very nicely done. He just has this quality that's hard to describe. Very impressive.
All and all the show was good. It showed alot of self defense techniques with some good chin na.
It really brought back the memories of the ways things used to be at the beginning for me, before all the 900 forms, it seemed like the emphasis was on sparring, conditioning and application. Now it's just seems like it's new form after new form.

And here's a question for the older guys: How many forms did Bill and Eric test on to get to 4th degree black? Because back then to go from 1st to 2nd you only needed 5 forms. Now it's 10 forms between each degree.

[densho]

very well put, peace&love,,, what state do you train in? myself i am in kentucky. have been training just over 23 years and am a 3rd black, and have been teaching for 15 years

What part of ky are you from? 'Cause i live there as well!

[shen ku]

south central part of the state, what styles do you do?

[tattooedmonk]

Just watched the whole ket series that Sin and Hiang put out around '81, and I'd like to make some comments.
First, I was really impressed with Sin and Hiang's breaking skills. The hanging brick break by Sin was explosive! Hiang's breaking was very powerful also. Then there was Bill leonard, who isn't the best forms performer, but very powerful and strong. Then there's Eric Smith. He really impressed me. His sword and spear forms were very nicely done. He just has this quality that's hard to describe. Very impressive.
All and all the show was good. It showed alot of self defense techniques with some good chin na.
It really brought back the memories of the ways things used to be at the beginning for me, before all the 900 forms, it seemed like the emphasis was on sparring, conditioning and application. Now it's just seems like it's new form after new form.

And here's a question for the older guys: How many forms did Bill and Eric test on to get to 4th degree black? Because back then to go from 1st to 2nd you only needed 5 forms. Now it's 10 forms between each degree.I love that series!!

Watching the brothers pit there best students ( EML & EMS) up against each other in the breaking demos .

Like you said , the suspension break is awesome !

I like the segment where Master Hiang teaches the nunchucku. I like the different versions of the Chin Na ( Self Defense ) and the Sparring techniques.

I no longer have a copy of the series, but I remember it well

I like K.I.S.S. keep it short & simple.***

****I do not llike to be refered to as stupid ,nor do I refer to anyone as being stupid , unless they are stupid.

"if it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it must be a duck."

I have this idea that stupid was added to the acronym because people forgot what the other "S" stood for................. now you do not have to be stupid any more.***

[Baqualin]

I love that series!!

Watching the brothers pit there best students ( EML & EMS) up against each other in the breaking demos .

Like you said , the suspension break is awesome !

I like the segment where Master Hiang teaches the nunchucku. I like the different versions of the Chin Na ( Self Defense ) and the Sparring techniques.

I no longer have a copy of the series, but I remember it well

I like K.I.S.S. keep it short & simple.***

****I do not llike to be refered to as stupid ,nor do I refer to anyone as being stupid , unless they are stupid.

"if it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it must be a duck."

I have this idea that stupid was added to the acronym because people forgot what the other "S" stood for................. now you do not have to be stupid any more.***

FYI....EML & EMS were GMS's students.;)
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

FYI....EML & EMS were GMS's students.;)
BQ No $h!t!?!?

I heard that EMS was MH's first and then became GMT's.

Thanks!!!

There is so much of the history of this art that needs to be cleared up.:D:cool:

[densho]

south central part of the state, what styles do you do?

Sorry I haven't filled out the info. page yet. For several years I was a student of Tracy Kenpo. Presently I'm working with a small group of American Kenpo students. Not certain about what the future holds. Thinking about taking American Kenpo classes on a regular basis. Also considering a style? more condensed.

There's a fair number of Shaolin-Do schools here in Kentucky. In fact I trained a little with Shaolin-do students over the years. Honestly I have always had some questions about what claims have been made about the style. Like the 900 forms claim in the offical site.

Glad to see another Kentucky resident here. Are there any ithers that you know of on this site?

[shen ku]

yes there are alot of people in ky on here

[tattooedmonk]

On the west coast (they used to) break it up in to different stages like block ,grap, jump punch and chop.

I remember from the KET videos that it was just a jumping chop.

Anyone have any info on this??

[shen ku]

everyone sees something in a tech. from their own point of view?

[bodhi warrior]

Guys & Gals
It has always been (since 1969, I don't go back any further)
Jump, cover your opponents' front hand (with your back hand),
Yell as you chop to his collar bone with your lead hand,and
knee up into the floating ribs with your leading knee. The chop and
knee should meet mid-way his body.
OTD

That's the way I was taught also.

Sounds like the west coast has changed these to.

[shen ku]

love the pic... thats pretty much what i was taught but my point was only that each of us see different was of using things based on all the things that make us us?

[naja]

That's the way I was taught also.

Sounds like the west coast has changed these to.

I'm East Coast, and was taught it as just a jumping chop.

[Judge Pen]

I'm East Coast, and was taught it as just a jumping chop.

That's the simplification on the technique that boils it down to its core, but the way OTD described it encompasis all of the elements. I'm pretty sure that the KET book doesn't go into as much detail as OTD either, but I'll check it out and get back to you.

By the way, the knee could be a block or even a hip check depending so there's several right ways to do a technique once you have the core movement in mind.

[Golden Tiger]

By the way, the knee could be a block or even a hip check depending so there's several right ways to do a technique once you have the core movement in mind.

Or if you were slick enough to hook the instep of the foot inside of his knee, and lean against his hip..he's kind of stuck. Or maybe even slide it down, hook the ankle and lean on the outside of the knee..that's an old pushing hands move but works well on # 10 also.

[Baqualin]

If I'm not mistaken, M. Bullock won the masters division in sparring a couple of tourney's
ago with #10
BQ

[Baqualin]

Or if you were slick enough to hook the instep of the foot inside of his knee, and lean against his hip..he's kind of stuck. Or maybe even slide it down, hook the ankle and lean on the outside of the knee..that's an old pushing hands move but works well on # 10 also.

Straight out of 64 just after cloud hands:)

So much for that ACL:eek:
BQ

[kwaichang]

Hey Baqualin where is that link we talked about ??? Hadnt gotten it yet KC

[John Dufresne]

...........?

[bodhi warrior]

I was practicing san njie today and had an idea on the application of the tense breathing. Now when I do san njie my abdomen stays tense from start till the explosion at the end. So when I breath my abdomen doesn't move, it's just solid. Now this comes in handy when going against a brazilian jujitsu practioner. They have a couple of moves where they try to compress the abdomen of their opponent. Every time the opponent breathes out they keep tightening their hold, making it harder and harder to breath. When I crossed trained in jujitsu their were a couple of bigger guys that would try this on me.
Just an idea to think about.

[SDJerry]

I always thought that technique was a filler personally. Jumping strikes to the collar bone just dosen't make any sense. A knee to the floaters accompanied by a chop makes even less sense. It's just not practial no matter how far you try to stretch it.

[Baqualin]

Hey Baqualin where is that link we talked about ??? Hadnt gotten it yet KC

Check your email:)
BQ

[Baqualin]

I always thought that technique was a filler personally. Jumping strikes to the collar bone just dosen't make any sense. A knee to the floaters accompanied by a chop makes even less sense. It's just not practial no matter how far you try to stretch it.

Watch the movie ong bak......he uses #10 as a elbow strike to the top of the skull instead of a chop to the collar bone.....pretty nasty.
BQ

[SDJerry]

Watch the movie ong bak......he uses #10 as a elbow strike to the top of the skull instead of a chop to the collar bone.....pretty nasty.
BQ

Now that makes more sense. An elbow would definitely make more of an impact than a chop.

[kungfujunky]

just reviewed 8 animal pa kua and Buddha fist.

finally ironed out the kinks i had in them.

8 animal though will take more understanding i think.

[Judge Pen]

Now that makes more sense. An elbow would definitely make more of an impact than a chop.
Depends on the target. In Ong BAk, I was a little bemused with that technique because he was striking down on the top of the head. My number one rule is strike hard to soft. An chop is more versatile because the collar-bone is vulnerable as is the throat and neck. To me, the jump is a way to cover ground (a suggestion if you will), but the principal of the technique is the metal element; the chopping force. Granted it can be done with the elbow, but its easier to change the angle of a chop.

[SDJerry]

Depends on the target. In Ong BAk, I was a little bemused with that technique because he was striking down on the top of the head. My number one rule is strike hard to soft. An chop is more versatile because the collar-bone is vulnerable as is the throat and neck. To me, the jump is a way to cover ground (a suggestion if you will), but the principal of the technique is the metal element; the chopping force. Granted it can be done with the elbow, but its easier to change the angle of a chop.

The center of the top of the skull is considered a weak spot due to the way your skull develops and hardens with age. I do admit though that it might be difficult to generate the required amount of force while in the air.

As far as attacking the collar bone, I think there are better ways than illustrated in that move. I don't like the angle of attack and the hand guarding the ribs definitely displays that it's intended to be used while jumping. If you are in the air you would be more concerned about protecting your ribs than if you were on the ground. If it were a standing attack, and the jump was meant to cover distance, your other hand would probably be protecting the jaw instead of the ribs. Know what I mean?

[Baqualin]

Depends on the target. In Ong BAk, I was a little bemused with that technique because he was striking down on the top of the head. My number one rule is strike hard to soft. An chop is more versatile because the collar-bone is vulnerable as is the throat and neck. To me, the jump is a way to cover ground (a suggestion if you will), but the principal of the technique is the metal element; the chopping force. Granted it can be done with the elbow, but its easier to change the angle of a chop.

Speed of the jump + force of gravity + Iron Bone elbow = nasty....an ax not a scalpel......kinda like splitting wood.

[Judge Pen]

Speed of the jump + force of gravity + Iron Bone elbow = nasty....an ax not a scalpel......kinda like splitting wood.

I'm not saying it couldn't work, but I like the accuracy and versitility of the hand for that type of attack.

[Baqualin]

I'm not saying it couldn't work, but I like the accuracy and versitility of the hand for that type of attack.

I agree....just adding to the versitility of 10......you could even make it a forearm/ elbow to the face.......sorry Chen Tai Chi has me thinking alot about elbows lately.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

The center of the top of the skull is considered a weak spot due to the way your skull develops and hardens with age. I do admit though that it might be difficult to generate the required amount of force while in the air.

As far as attacking the collar bone, I think there are better ways than illustrated in that move. I don't like the angle of attack and the hand guarding the ribs definitely displays that it's intended to be used while jumping. If you are in the air you would be more concerned about protecting your ribs than if you were on the ground. If it were a standing attack, and the jump was meant to cover distance, your other hand would probably be protecting the jaw instead of the ribs. Know what I mean?

The left hand could be a bridging or pulling action instead of a blocking action. It's always bothered me to think one could block a stout side kick with the palm of their hand. I would like to see someone try to block Master Mullins' side kick that way. :eek:

[kwaichang]

The Chinese say one ounce can move a thousand pounds with the right foot work that is possible with any kick or punch. KC

[Baqualin]

The left hand could be a bridging or pulling action instead of a blocking action. It's always bothered me to think one could block a stout side kick with the palm of their hand. I would like to see someone try to block Master Mullins' side kick that way. :eek:

I'm not putting my hand in front of any of his kicks...front side or whatever:eek:
BQ

[shen ku]

i'll put my hand in front of his kick................ and beg him not to kick me

[Judge Pen]

To all the SD people, what are the principals and applications to short form number one. Where are it's hidden (i.e. non-apparent) techniques. Why is it the foundation of or curriculim? Talk about it.

[BentMonk]

To all the SD people, what are the principals and applications to short form number one. Where are it's hidden (i.e. non-apparent) techniques. Why is it the foundation of or curriculim? Talk about it.

Short form number one introduces proper body alignment, and power generation. The bow stance aligns and stretches the body. In this position the hips will be forced to move when punching. This helps the concept of generating power with the hips become second nature.

Blocking the head while punching, introduces the principle of simultaneous attack and defense.

The downward block and step through introduce the principle of deflecting force rather than blocking it, and allowing one technique to flow naturally into the next.

All effective MA techniques are built upon a foundation of solid body structure, proper body alignment, power generation, effective offense/defense, and proper body mechanics.

Short form number one teaches the basics of this solid foundation in a few very simple movements. I believe that is why it is one of the core techniques in SD.

[Baqualin]

Short form number one introduces proper body alignment, and power generation. The bow stance aligns and stretches the body. In this position the hips will be forced to move when punching. This helps the concept of generating power with the hips become second nature.

Blocking the head while punching, introduces the principle of simultaneous attack and defense.

The downward block and step through introduce the principle of deflecting force rather than blocking it, and allowing one technique to flow naturally into the next.

All effective MA techniques are built upon a foundation of solid body structure, proper body alignment, power generation, effective offense/defense, and proper body mechanics.

Short form number one teaches the basics of this solid foundation in a few very simple movements. I believe that is why it is one of the core techniques in SD.

You can't really add much to the above....well said.

[BentMonk]

You can't really add much to the above....well said.

Thank you sir. I have a great teacher, but you already knew that. :)

[Lamassu]

Short form number one introduces proper body alignment, and power generation. The bow stance aligns and stretches the body. In this position the hips will be forced to move when punching. This helps the concept of generating power with the hips become second nature.

Blocking the head while punching, introduces the principle of simultaneous attack and defense.

The downward block and step through introduce the principle of deflecting force rather than blocking it, and allowing one technique to flow naturally into the next.

All effective MA techniques are built upon a foundation of solid body structure, proper body alignment, power generation, effective offense/defense, and proper body mechanics.

Short form number one teaches the basics of this solid foundation in a few very simple movements. I believe that is why it is one of the core techniques in SD.

There's also the downward block after the initial punch. I never even thought about the practical application to it until I threw a snap kick at my partner while sparring in class, and he blocks down like in sf#1; driving his elbow into the top of my foot *ouch*. After that, I was impressed by his application of such a simple motion, as I limped over to the benches to tend to my foot.

[kwaichang]

SF # 1 a defense against a grab with joint lock' or locks in place or closing then a throw KC

[shen ku]

?? have any of you seen master nance's way of working sk#1 ,,he has some very good things to share?

[Judge Pen]

?? have any of you seen master nance's way of working sk#1 ,,he has some very good things to share?

I have. I like his way of thinking. He "reverse engineers" these techniques which I appreciate.

[Golden Tiger]

Short form number 1

To add to what Bent has already stated:

The stance teaches a solid foundation, a rooting if you will. Most have no balance when they begin and the stance will help develop that. It also will lead to the proper way to generate power through the body instead of the arm, as is the way most punch when beginning. The right leg being forward along with the left hand being out will creating a certain "torquing or loading" of the waist and body. When the right hand punch is delivered, it starts with the leg, driving the waist which in turn will "unload" through the body to the shoulder and finally end at the fist.

The punch adds to this generation of power by using the shoulders to rotate 90 deg. and drive the arm. The left hand should pull back to the head block as hard as the right hand is punching, causing the shoulders to act as a fulcrum. The fist, being palm up until the moment of impact will add just a bit more ummmph by rotating it to palm down at the moment of contact (this is why you flip your wrist when trying to get that booger off your finger, more acceleration:D ).

As for the blocking, it will teach a couple of things. The way it was explained to me, the fist and elbow should make an arching motion (radius about 2-3 inches on the fist) which will increase speed and power on the fore arm in the block. Snapping the wrist to palm up at the last moment will cause the inside blade of the forearm to snap into the block, creating a hard bone vs soft tissue blocking situation.

So, with in this one small simple form, there are a lot of principles that can be applied all the way up through the SD training. There are more nuances to the form, but those are the ones I think are best stressed.

[peace&love]

Any comments out there on Lo Han Chien? I really like the way it incorporates the I Ching breathing at the beginning and end. It reminds me of some of the Hung Gar forms I have learned previous to studying Shaolin Do in that regards.

[bodhi warrior]

Wouldn't this be true of all the forms? This way both sides get worked evenly.

[kwaichang]

I dont think the Hua would apply this way, however does anyone have the sets after Tai Pang Sien Kune of the other Tai Pang Forms ?? I think there are 4 or 6 of them . KC

[bodhi warrior]

I dont think the Hua would apply this way, however does anyone have the sets after Tai Pang Sien Kune of the other Tai Pang Forms ?? I think there are 4 or 6 of them . KC

I have learned the first three, which really make up one form. There are supposed to be 18 of them. But I think the first 6 are really just 2 forms broken up.
But as far as the three I know, they really are basic. The first and third are basically the same form but done on the opposite side. The second one isn't much at all.
Hope that helps.

[tattooedmonk]

SF # 1 a defense against a grab with joint lock' or locks in place or closing then a throw KCThis it the one I like . It is too bad that most people can not see beyond the simple and obvious block and punch. The hidden/ scecret moves are in the range of motion.

[tattooedmonk]

How about Collins and those TITANS!!!!! Looks like the old quarterbacks have something to prove this season and have!!!!

[Judge Pen]

This it the one I like . It is too bad that most people can not see beyond the simple and obvious block and punch. The hidden/ scecret moves are in the range of motion.

I don't think hidden or secret is the right term because these are not applications that are not taught. Most movements in forms have different applications depending on the distance and type of attack. I don't think that "most" people can't see it, but some people don't always take the time to look at a technique from all perspectives.

[BentMonk]

I don't think hidden or secret is the right term because these are not applications that are not taught. Most movements in forms have different applications depending on the distance and type of attack. I don't think that "most" people can't see it, but some people don't always take the time to look at a technique from all perspectives.

The application of any movement is going to change based on many factors. The height and weight of the combatants, the ability level of the practitioner, the conflict environment, etc. IMO basic applications are taught in the beginning to start the practitioner thinking about why they're doing the movement. As each person grows as a martial artist, they become less and less concerned with specific applications. Their body begins to move naturally and correctly based on the type of situation they are in. As Bruce Lee said, "I do not hit. It hits all by itself." :D

[Judge Pen]

BW
I suppose so,however, GMS specifically pointed out many many moons
ago that this particular form we did was only half of the entire form. I asked
him one time about the closing , this was when he informed me of the right
mirror side. Maybe some one older than me has more info on the Left/Right
(mirror image) side of other SD forms ???? (That would really be a 'corker' if
all the Hua fists were mirrored, What an endurance test that would be!!!)
OTD

I've not tried to mirror the Huas, but try doing all 4 consecutively with 0 break between them. They really do flow well into one another and you still end up within a couple of feet from the begining of 1 to the end of 4.

[shen ku]

on the two sided thing, does any here have the manite linkage forms, they are that way so maybe it is a system thing to mantis?
i remember the first time i was asked to do lohan on the other both sides, not to brag, but it was in class at the last second me and a training partner were the highest rank in the class, we pulled it off first run with no problem, all the lower rank were like , " what the he77?? " ,, it was fun

[tattooedmonk]

I don't think hidden or secret is the right term because these are not applications that are not taught. Most movements in forms have different applications depending on the distance and type of attack. I don't think that "most" people can't see it, but some people don't always take the time to look at a technique from all perspectives.They are hidden and secret to the ones who do not know them , can not use them or are not aware of them, correct??

I disagree with you about most people seeing them . If most people saw them, knew them or used them you would not see so many people using the application that are obvious and on the surface, making up application that are not really there and / or need a great deal of cooperation to make work.

But I do agree that, if they were taught what it is that they should be looking for and learned how to see things from multiple perspectives they can and should be able to see them.

[Judge Pen]

They are hidden and secret to the ones who do not know them , can not use them or are not aware of them, correct??

I disagree with you about most people seeing them . If most people saw them, knew them or used them you would not see so many people using the application that are obvious and on the surface, making up application that are not really there and / or need a great deal of cooperation to make work.

But I do agree that, if they were taught what it is that they should be looking for and learned how to see things from multiple perspectives they can and should be able to see them.

The best application is the one that works for you. Obvious applications are fine because they deal with obvious situations. Other applications may only work in the most unique of circumstances and, as Paul astutely pointed out, depend on any number of variables.

[BentMonk]

IMO the moves in all MA forms exist simply to reinforce the basics I mentioned concerning short form number one. The internal arts add intent and harnessed energy to this solid foundation.

When someone is in a confrontation they're not going to stop and think, "OK, I'm going to use the second application that I figured out for the first part of the third black tiger." If their fundamentals are sound the reaction will be natural, fluid, and effective.

I'm not saying that looking for specific applications within a form is a bad thing. Anything that adds more than one dimension to some one's thinking is a good thing. I just feel that once movements become truly internalized, the number of possible applications becomes as limitless as the situations a practitioner may encounter. Analysing is a good thing as long as the analysis doesn't limit the scope of your thinking or stifle your instincts. :D

[tattooedmonk]

The best application is the one that works for you. Obvious applications are fine because they deal with obvious situations. Other applications may only work in the most unique of circumstances and, as Paul astutely pointed out, depend on any number of variables. I agree. They can .To me the throw is just as obvious as the block and punch. Doesnt this hold true even for the obvious techniques as well( circumstances and variables)???

[tattooedmonk]

IMO the moves in all MA forms exist simply to reinforce the basics I mentioned concerning short form number one. The internal arts add intent and harnessed energy to this solid foundation.

When someone is in a confrontation they're not going to stop and think, "OK, I'm going to use the second application that I figured out for the first part of the third black tiger." If their fundamentals are sound the reaction will be natural, fluid, and effective.

I'm not saying that looking for specific applications within a form is a bad thing. Anything that adds more than one dimension to some one's thinking is a good thing. I just feel that once movements become truly internalized, the number of possible applications becomes as limitless as the situations a practitioner may encounter. Analysing is a good thing as long as the analysis doesn't limit the scope of your thinking or stifle your instincts. :DI agree.........

[Judge Pen]

I agree. They can .To me the throw is just as obvious as the block and punch. Doesnt this hold true even for the obvious techniques as well( circumstances and variables)???

It does. The problem is when people try to force one application into circumstances that don't apply.

[MasterKiller]

It does. The problem is when people try to force one application into circumstances that don't apply.

That's why I prefer to teach principles instead of techniques. A principle can applied 100 different ways and even improvised, whereas a lot of techniques are situation-specific

[Judge Pen]

That's why I prefer to teach principles instead of techniques. A principle can applied 100 different ways and even improvised, whereas a lot of techniques are situation-specific
Techniques should be an e.g. to the teaching of principal and not the other way around. Beginners often digest techniques more quickly at first, but at some point a shift in focus should occur in the instruction.

[tattooedmonk]

It does. The problem is when people try to force one application into circumstances that don't apply.I agree......

[tattooedmonk]

Techniques should be an e.g. to the teaching of principal and not the other way around. Beginners often digest techniques more quickly at first, but at some point a shift in focus should occur in the instruction.
I agree with this too.....I bet you guys did not know I could be so agreeable.

[shen ku]

don't tell me this is going to die? we are so close

[peace&love]

Okay, let me see if I can generate further conversation. Looking at other SD schools across the country, I notice that some schools require internal arts as well as external arts for individual rank advancement. The school I attend is like this, and it is one of the main reasons I chose to study SD. My previous Hung Gar school placed great emphasis on the internal arts as well, therefore, I truly believe the importance of those studies to be a true martial artist. Also, I notice that many SD schools have two separate programs for the internal and external arts for rank advancement. In this case, a student can study either one of the arts or both. Either way, I believe it is good that the internal arts are not being lost, but was curious about how other SD practitioners felt about these two options that are out in the SD world.

[SenseiShellie]

So, I am wondering, what forms do you guys require for each rank? Do you have videos that go along with stuff? I'm just curious...

[shen ku]

there are alot of forms,,,,,,,and no standard videos...
on interenal and exterenal... i like the idea in theory, but i don't offer it that way in my school, i find in my area atleast that most people have a hard time comititng the time to do just one?? so i just stick with the path i was taught ,,,,

[naja]

So, I am wondering, what forms do you guys require for each rank? Do you have videos that go along with stuff? I'm just curious...

Too many forms if you ask me. I recently quit SD because of the abundance of forms. Here's a link to the school I went to, with the testing requirements - http://mullins-shaolin.com/technique/techique.htm

I spent 14 months there, learned allot of forms, got in good shape, and felt like I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag. I spent 4 months under another teacher (not a SD teacher) about 15 years ago, that taught a tiger based system. In the 14 months I was in SD, I remembered allot of what I learned from my first teacher and learned two new techniques. 2. In 14 months. I gave SD three times the length of time I had in the other system, and only two new techs? :eek:

Sparring? We did light or no-contact sparring in SD. I mentioned my feelings about the paper bag winning to my teacher one day before class. I was told he didn't let it get beyond what he did due to it evolving into "brawling". I should have quit then. I was about 6 months into it at that point. But I stayed because one of the black sashes hinted to me that it was rougher sparring in the upper belt classes. I was a blue sash at this time. If I had stayed in it, I would be testing for 3rd brown this week. We were told the good news about a week before I quit, that we would be testing in 3 weeks and that we had all the sparring, and short form techs that we would need to get to black. The bad news was that we had 15 more long forms to learn. 15. That's 5 per belt rank in brown. Time for sparring? I doubt it.

[BentMonk]

Too many forms if you ask me. I recently quit SD because of the abundance of forms. Here's a link to the school I went to, with the testing requirements - http://mullins-shaolin.com/technique/techique.htm

I spent 14 months there, learned allot of forms, got in good shape, and felt like I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag. I spent 4 months under another teacher (not a SD teacher) about 15 years ago, that taught a tiger based system. In the 14 months I was in SD, I remembered allot of what I learned from my first teacher and learned two new techniques. 2. In 14 months. I gave SD three times the length of time I had in the other system, and only two new techs? :eek:

Sparring? We did light or no-contact sparring in SD. I mentioned my feelings about the paper bag winning to my teacher one day before class. I was told he didn't let it get beyond what he did due to it evolving into "brawling". I should have quit then. I was about 6 months into it at that point. But I stayed because one of the black sashes hinted to me that it was rougher sparring in the upper belt classes. I was a blue sash at this time. If I had stayed in it, I would be testing for 3rd brown this week. We were told the good news about a week before I quit, that we would be testing in 3 weeks and that we had all the sparring, and short form techs that we would need to get to black. The bad news was that we had 15 more long forms to learn. 15. That's 5 per belt rank in brown. Time for sparring? I doubt it.

SD does have a lot of material. I know your former SD instructor. He is a very talented and respected MA in and out of SD. I think what most people don't realize is that the insurance required for a school to allow contact sparring is very expensive. Also, the majority of people who practice something other than MMA aren't interested in sparring with serious contact. Then you have those who say they want to spar hard, but then get mad when they get tagged. I'm not saying this applies to you. I'm just offering possible reasons why the sparring environment is structured the way it is. I feel safe in saying that you would have experienced greater intensity in sparring at the black belt level...unless we're talking about a different EM Mullins. :D A student of his by the name of Chris Buck went into the cage and won by TKO. I myself have competed in an exhibition full contact match, and won by decision. It's all in how you train in and outside of class IMO. I can work on footwork, timing, etc. doing light to no contact sparring. Then I have classmates who want to train with contact and friends who train MMA. When I want to spar hard I play with them. I also feel that it is better to learn principles of movement, and let continued forms training solidify my existing foundation, rather than focusing on the number of techniques I learn. If my foundation is solid, the situation will show me which technique to use. I will react rather than think. :)

[MasterKiller]

I think what most people don't realize is that the insurance required for a school to allow contact sparring is very expensive. no it isn't. Most regular MA insurance companies, even karateinsurance.com, cover hard contact as long as you use closed-fingered gloves and foot/shin protection.

Now, proper mats and gear are expensive. You should not be figthing hard on puzzle mats, for example. I have a relatively small mat (18' x 18' x 2") and it cost me about $1,000. That's a big investment for a small school.


Then you have those who say they want to spar hard, but then get mad when they get tagged. Even people who come into MMA classes are like this. I've seen a few BJJ guys who didn't mind ripping your arms off while grappling but then complained about hard contact when striking was added.


. I myself have competed in an exhibition full contact match, and won by decision. What were the rules?


It's all in how you train in and outside of class IMO. Right, but a lot of people only have time to train IN CLASS. I think forms classes should be run separate from sparring classes, personally. That way, people who want the art have the opportunity to learn it without fear of hard contact, and people who want fighting methods don't have to waste their time learning patterns that can eat up valuable training time.

[BentMonk]

Greetings MK. I hope all is good with you.

I have no clue what insurance costs. That's just what I've been told. I did know that the mats and gear are not cheap.

My match happened at the '06 Arnold as part of the disabled MA competition. I have always been frustrated by the lack of sparring events for people with disabilities. At the Arnold I met, Ron Mann. He's an amateur MMA fighter and an amputee. He lost his left leg, below the knee in a motorcycle accident. We agreed on full contact strikes, and only ten seconds on the ground. Ron agreed to this because at the time I had zero true ground game. There were four corner judges. They scored one point for a solid strike or a clean ground technique. One 5 minute round.
Ron floored me with a heel thrust right off the bat. I got up and countered with a hard right cross to his chin. There was one instance where Ron could have seriously ground and pounded my a$$, but he was merciful and only tagged me a couple of times. Despite my lack of ground experience I was able to avoid another ground and pound by punching so intensely from the ground that Ron let me up. I was also able to avoid two arm bars by shear upper body strength. As time wound down, the score was 2-2. Ron threw a hard high kick with his prosthetic leg. I was able to block most of it, but the intensity of the blow still stunned me. Ron expected that to finish me. He was not given the point because I was able to block most of the shot and it did not take me off of my feet. The momentum of his kick spun Ron around. As he recovered, expecting to see me on the mat, he instead saw my fist crash into his nose. I was awarded the point, time expired.
I'm not sure that I would have stayed ahead in points if we had gone another round. I also realize that this was not the UFC and Ron's not Randy Couture. I know that under different rules I may not have fared as well. I'm happy with the win because this is the most successful I have been in any competition I have been a part of. I also feel that I proved to myself that the skills I have are effective in a contact situation. SD is where I learned those skills, so I feel my experience adds more validity to SD. Ron said that he had never competed against any other style than MMA. He was impressed by the different angles of attack I was able to utilize, my punching power, my upper body strength, and my conditioning level.
This experience is what motivated me to train with more contact and with people who practiced MMA. If you want to learn to spar hard...spar hard. If you want to survive being hit...get hit, a lot. I'm no bad a$$, but I don't just play tag either. :D
I agree that schools should offer a seperate sparring class, especially if there is a lot of forms work.

[Judge Pen]

Too many forms if you ask me. I recently quit SD because of the abundance of forms. Here's a link to the school I went to, with the testing requirements - http://mullins-shaolin.com/technique/techique.htm

I spent 14 months there, learned allot of forms, got in good shape, and felt like I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag. I spent 4 months under another teacher (not a SD teacher) about 15 years ago, that taught a tiger based system. In the 14 months I was in SD, I remembered allot of what I learned from my first teacher and learned two new techniques. 2. In 14 months. I gave SD three times the length of time I had in the other system, and only two new techs? :eek:

Sparring? We did light or no-contact sparring in SD. I mentioned my feelings about the paper bag winning to my teacher one day before class. I was told he didn't let it get beyond what he did due to it evolving into "brawling". I should have quit then. I was about 6 months into it at that point. But I stayed because one of the black sashes hinted to me that it was rougher sparring in the upper belt classes. I was a blue sash at this time. If I had stayed in it, I would be testing for 3rd brown this week. We were told the good news about a week before I quit, that we would be testing in 3 weeks and that we had all the sparring, and short form techs that we would need to get to black. The bad news was that we had 15 more long forms to learn. 15. That's 5 per belt rank in brown. Time for sparring? I doubt it.


As I was black sash that told you to stick with it, that rougher sparring was ahead, I will stand by my comments. Granted I'm not part of the daily classes of EM Mullins, but I know that his sparring days with the upper belts are very intense.

I agree that the number of forms is overwhelming. But SD has primarily what I've trained in for 20 years. By the time I reached your level, I felt like I was significantly better fighter then before I started training. I've only gotten better since then. but I've seen several excellent forms people that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag too. But their forms were awesome!

I wish you well and I'm sorry that SD didn't offer you what you were looking for.

[MasterKiller]

BM,
sounds like a good experience. Be well.

[naja]

As I was black sash that told you to stick with it, that rougher sparring was ahead, I will stand by my comments. Granted I'm not part of the daily classes of EM Mullins, but I know that his sparring days with the upper belts are very intense.

I agree that the number of forms is overwhelming. But SD has primarily what I've trained in for 20 years. By the time I reached your level, I felt like I was significantly better fighter then before I started training. I've only gotten better since then. but I've seen several excellent forms people that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag too. But their forms were awesome!

I wish you well and I'm sorry that SD didn't offer you what you were looking for.

I was actually referring to another student at this school. I had forgotten that we had discussed this. I think my issue with it is that I would have to learn all the forms to get to that level before getting into contact sparring. I personally would rather tag focus mitts and concentrate on footwork instead of forms.

No worries on it not working out for me. I think I found out rather early that it wasn't my cup of tea, but I stayed because of the friendly atmosphere and people I trained with.

One thing I will say for SD is that I never met anyone above blue sash that had an attitude. Everyone was as nice as possible.

[BentMonk]

BM,
sounds like a good experience. Be well.

It was a blast. Thanks. You too.

[naja]

no it isn't. Most regular MA insurance companies, even karateinsurance.com, cover hard contact as long as you use closed-fingered gloves and foot/shin protection.

This is my understanding as well. Why can the other MA schools in town afford to do it when most of them only have a fraction of the students that this school has? It has to be preference of the teacher. And I have no problem with that, it's their school after all.


Right, but a lot of people only have time to train IN CLASS. I think forms classes should be run separate from sparring classes, personally. That way, people who want the art have the opportunity to learn it without fear of hard contact, and people who want fighting methods don't have to waste their time learning patterns that can eat up valuable training time.

I'm a perfect example of that. I can train some at home, but 90% of my training happens in the school.

And I agree on your teacher method MK, it makes a lot more sense. I bet we would see very few students start out on forms though. I think when most people got in shape they would want to progress to sparring, if even for just a few months.

[Citong Shifu]

Talking about styles that have an overwhelming number of forms. I have a friend that kinda did same as Sin The', meaning, he trained in many kung fu styles (like 12) and combined all the forms, etc into one main style of his own. The problem I see with him, his students, & style is that there is too much brute strength in everything that they do (technique). Of course, this is not all bad, but there's a time and place for this type of force to be applied, especially in CMA. Luckily he's a good friend of mine and didn't take my critism offensively when I brought this to his attention. For the next year he focused on trying to become more natural within his art. He even preached this to his students, but in the end, there was still too much brute stregnth being applied and focused on during execution of there techniques. He called me about 6 months ago and wanted to sit down and discuss some possible solutions or methods to correct this aspect of his style. We met and discussed various things, but in the end it came down to one significant fact, Too many forms! The point was this, too many forms allows one to practice many techniques and repitions, but doesn't allow one to mature in there training principles. Variation is important, but only after one can gain the skill and understanding of the previous. Understanding develops skill, not the other around. When one understands a punch can be horizontal, vertical, up, down, to the side, angular, etc then one doesn't need 10 forms to train 10 different ways of punching, in short. Point is, my friend re-structured his style cut down the number of forms, etc to black sash and placed the other half of the system throughout the black sash levels for members to speacialize in after the core training. His members can choose what they want to specialize in after black sash and receive the appropriate certification. Its been another year since we've sat down and talked shop. He is excited. He himself, as well as, his students have come a long way since our first conversation a year ago. Everyone has started to develop naturally with speed, power, force, hard, soft, etc. There's something to say about this. Its not about all the forms one can learn or pratice, its about developing skill through understanding the blue prints (so to speak).

I only bring this up due to posts concerning styles with tons of forms. Repition is great and offers much benefit, however, people should be careful how they perceive this principle.

You guys have fun and play hard.
CS

[MasterKiller]

I only bring this up due to posts concerning styles with tons of forms. Repition is great and offers much benefit, however, people should be careful how they perceive this principle.

How many forms do you teach from these systems listed in your biography: Fujian Shaolin
Temple Kung Fu, Tong Bei Quan/White Ape Boxing, Changquan/Long Fist Boxing, Tang Long Quan/Preying Mantis Boxing, Yang Style Taiji (Tai Chi), Wing Chung, Five Animal Kung-Fu, Bagua Quan, Xing Yi Quan, Nan Quan?

[Baqualin]

So, I am wondering, what forms do you guys require for each rank? Do you have videos that go along with stuff? I'm just curious...

You can check the SDA website for the list of forms required for each rank......videos are available from some teachers (with permission) to their students after they have completed the class on a particular form....there is no charge for this. When you participate in a seminar, you have the option to purchase a video for that form, which you will receive at the seminar. Having said this I only speak for the way it is at the school here in Lex. Every SD school is controlled by the Instructor who owns the school (within reason).....there are no franchises, but we do have area protection. I guess I better add that I have no idea how they run things out west.....it's CSC not SD.
BQ

[Citong Shifu]

How many forms do you teach from these systems listed in your biography: Fujian Shaolin
Temple Kung Fu, Tong Bei Quan/White Ape Boxing, Changquan/Long Fist Boxing, Tang Long Quan/Preying Mantis Boxing, Yang Style Taiji (Tai Chi), Wing Chung, Five Animal Kung-Fu, Bagua Quan, Xing Yi Quan, Nan Quan?

MK, I only teach Shaolin and Tong Bei. San Shou and Shuai Jiao are taught as well, but there practiced as combat sparring with no forms. The styles listed in my profile are basically my experience. After members reach the advance ranks (black sash) they can pick what style/s they want to specialize in. I personally specialize in 5 styles. the other styles I have trained in are more suplemental in nature, which I usually only teach in seminar settings... We focus our intent on quality not quanity, which is good for us since our independent styles usually consist of 4 to 5 empty hand sets, 2 two person sets, stylistic drills and weapons, and applications.

CS

[MasterKiller]

MK, I only teach Shaolin and Tong Bei. San Shou and Shuai Jiao are taught as well, but there practiced as combat sparring with no forms. The styles listed in my profile are basically my experience. After members reach the advance ranks (black sash) they can pick what style/s they want to specialize in. I personally specialize in 5 styles. the other styles I have trained in are more suplemental in nature, which I usually only teach in seminar settings... We focus our intent on quality not quanity, which is good for us since our independent styles usually consist of 4 to 5 empty hand sets, 2 two person sets, stylistic drills and weapons, and applications.

CS

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Your black sash students only learn 4 or 5 handsets from different systems of your choosing, and that's their curriculum until they get good enough to decide they want others?

You don't teach them complete systems?

[Citong Shifu]

MK, lol. No, They learn the Shaolin system; Shaolin Louhan Quan, Shaolin Quan, and Shaolin Dishu Quan. Then they learn our second lineage; Tong Bei Qaun. This is our core training. After this, they decide what style/s they want to persue.

CS

[MasterKiller]

MK, lol. No, They learn the Shaolin system; Shaolin Louhan Quan, Shaolin Quan, and Shaolin Dishu Quan. Then they learn our second lineage; Tong Bei Qaun. This is our core training. After this, they decide what style/s they want to persue.

CS

How many hand sets in Tong Bei?

[Citong Shifu]

Our tong Bei Lineage has 4 empty hand sets, 2 two man set, 4 weapons sets and applications. Total= 10

[Judge Pen]

Who is their instructor after they learn the shoalin and tong-bei? After they decide what other styles they wish to learn?

[kwaichang]

Hey JP hows the football team doing KC

[Citong Shifu]

Who is their instructor after they learn the shoalin and tong-bei? After they decide what other styles they wish to learn?

I am! All I was Saying is, our martial art system is not based on an overwhelming amount of forms. My friends art has been reduced to his primary structure as well. There just seems to be more of a benefit with this type of stucture, unless one wishes to practice forms for the collective purpose which has a great cardio benefit.

[shen ku]

anyone have any kinds of problems training in this cold weather coming?

[Baqualin]

anyone have any kinds of problems training in this cold weather coming?

Only if I try to train outside:) Actually, It takes me a little longer to warm up....I also seem more sluggish......I don't know if it's from the cold weather or just getting old:eek:
BQ

I do practice meditation outside (not often) in the snow just to see if I can generate enough energy to stay comfortable.....sometimes I can, sometimes not.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Hey JP hows the football team doing KC

Which one? Redskins (ok, but could be better), Volunteers (horrible, probably lose to Kentucky this year, so you know its bad) Fantasy, 2nd overall, but it's still a tight race to the playoffs.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Judge Pen;896523]Which one? Volunteers (horrible, probably lose to Kentucky this year, so you know its bad)

The Cats are getting better you know:eek:
BQ

[Judge Pen]

[QUOTE=Judge Pen;896523]Which one? Volunteers (horrible, probably lose to Kentucky this year, so you know its bad)

The Cats are getting better you know:eek:
BQ

That's not hard to get, when you've been that bad for that long. :eek::p

[peace&love]

I have been training in little over a year in SD. I researched a number of other systems and schools, and the local SD school best fit my schedule. I also liked the fact that the internal arts were taught and practiced there as well. Unfortunately, I have had a recent incident that has left me puzzled and disappointed. Feedback in regards to this would be helpful.

Previous to SD, I trained in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut. We played "sticky" hands and feet regularly and did controlled sparring without gear that was very intense at times. Last night, I played hands with someone who is getting ready to test for a black belt. They did not do well against me and proceeded to strike me in the chin with a fist, which I let go as a mistake. Looking back. it was on purpose I think out of frustration. As the process continued, the person gave me three cheap shot to the neck before reconnecting hands. Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

[naja]

Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

From the way it sounds, I think you handled it in the correct manner. Problem here is when someone is acting like an @ss, they are unpredictable in how they would take someone who is a lower rank than them voicing what you did.

If you like SD, and enjoy going to this kwoon then I say give it a little time. This person may not stay very long if they do pass their black sash test, and they may not pass. I understand how it would be disappointing, you'll just have to weigh that against how much you enjoy the kwoon and the training there.

[BentMonk]

I have been training in little over a year in SD. I researched a number of other systems and schools, and the local SD school best fit my schedule. I also liked the fact that the internal arts were taught and practiced there as well. Unfortunately, I have had a recent incident that has left me puzzled and disappointed. Feedback in regards to this would be helpful.

Previous to SD, I trained in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut. We played "sticky" hands and feet regularly and did controlled sparring without gear that was very intense at times. Last night, I played hands with someone who is getting ready to test for a black belt. They did not do well against me and proceeded to strike me in the chin with a fist, which I let go as a mistake. Looking back. it was on purpose I think out of frustration. As the process continued, the person gave me three cheap shot to the neck before reconnecting hands. Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

This is more a person specific issue than a SD issue IMO. It would be nice if every person who practiced MA was as concerned with developing their character as they are about developing their fists. Some aren't truly concerned with really developing either. They're ego driven hobbyists who view rank as a status symbol. People like this are annoying to be sure. I feel that they exist to help pay the rent on the kwoon, and serve as an example of what a MA isn't. Unless things continue to happen between you and this guy, I wouldn't give it another thought. Be content in the knowledge that you took the moral high road. I'm sorry if this sounds like a bad fortune cookie, but people like that really aren't worth your time and energy. Be well.

[tattooedmonk]

...... notes , the ones that are handed out at the seminar, are only one sided. I did my best to reconstruct them. Please correct them or if I have missed or need to change. I am going to do the Chinese translation for them as well.

1. Getting Ready Position
2. White Crane Flies to the Edge of the Sky
3. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
4. White Crane Raises the Knee and Kicks
5. White Crane Salutes the Buddha
6. White Crane Turns, Knees and Kicks
7. White Crane Kicks Back
8. White Crane Knees, Leans Back and Front Kicks
9. Vicious Tiger Back Kicks the Enemy
10. Three Kicks of the White Crane
11. White Crane Guards the Cave
12. White Crane Guards the Nest
13. Vicious Tiger Looks Back
14. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
15. White Crane Knees , Kicks
16. Green Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
17. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
18. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
19. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (R)
20. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (L)
21. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
22. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
23. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
24. White Snake Comes Up to the Water Surface
25. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
26. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
27. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
28. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
29. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
30. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
31. Green Dragon Tests It’s Claw
32. Black Leopard Climbs the Tree
33. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
34. Green Dragon Swings It’s Claw
35. White Snake Climbs Over the Twig
36. Golden Leopard Bounces the Ball
37. Golden Leopard Rolls the Ball
38. Golden Leopard Strikes the Ball
39. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
40. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
41. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
42. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
43. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
44. Green Dragon Snatches the Pearl
45. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg ( L)
46. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg (R)
47. Black Leopard Twist It’s Neck
48. White Crane Spreads It’ s Wings
49. White Crane Strikes It’s Wings
50. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
51. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
52. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
53. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
54. White Crane Strikes Out with Both Wings
55. White Strikes Out With It’s (L) Wing
56. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
57. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
58. White Strikes Out With Both Wings
59. White Crane Strikes Out with It’s (R) Wing
60. Wild Tiger Pushes the ( Hua ) Mountain
61. Vicious Tiger Nods It’s Head
62. White Crane Jumps Over the Twig
63. White Crane Smashes It’s (L ) Foot
64. White Crane Stands on One Leg
65. White Crane Defends the Cave
66. White Crane Defends the Nest
67. White Crane Smashes It’s (R) Foot
68. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
69. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
70. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
71. Green Dragon Stretches It’s (R) Leg
72. Wild Tiger Looks Back
73. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
74. Golden Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
75. Golden Leopard Twists It’s Body
76. White Crane Opens It’s (R) Wing
77. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
78. Black Dragon Turns the Body
79. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
80. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
81. Black Dragon Turns the Body
82. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
83. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
84. Black Dragon Turn the Body
85. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claws
86. Black Dragons It’s Claw
87. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Ocean
88. Green Dragon Come Out of the Ocean
89. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
90. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
91. Golden Leopard Looks at the Moon
92. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
93. Golden Leopard Scratches It’s Back (Three Elbows)
94. White Snake Looks at the Road
95. Green Dragon Comes Up from the Sea
96. Twin White Cranes Raise their Heads
97. White Snake Throws It’s Tongue Out (Spits Venom?)
98. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
99. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
100. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
101. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
102. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
103. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
104. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
105. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
106. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
107. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
108. Vicious Tiger Turns It’s Head
109. Black Leopard Strikes (Stomps) the Ground
110. Golden Snake Strikes Out of the Willow Tree
111. Green Dragon Comes up From the Ocean
112. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
113. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
114. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
115. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
116. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
117. Wild Tiger Looks Back
118. Golden Leopard Hangs from the Tree Branch
119. Golden Leopard Salutes the Buddha
120. White Crane Leaps, Kicks Behind
121. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Lake
122. Move Back and Ride the Tiger
123. White Crane Knee And Spread the Wings
124. Double Snakes Jump Over the Twig
125. White Snake Salutes the Buddha
126. Vicious Tiger Salutes the Buddha
127. Green Dragon Salutes The Buddha
128. Conclusion of the Form

Curious as to why most people throw these away. I find them to be very helpful and valuable. I am missing a few from various forms but have most of the ones that were released or I have made reconstructed copies

[bodhi warrior]

[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;896578]...... notes , the ones that are handed out at the seminar, are only one sided. I did my best to reconstruct them. Please correct them or if I have missed or need to change. I am going to do the Chinese translation for them as well.

1. Getting Ready Position
2. White Crane Flies to the Edge of the Sky
3. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
4. White Crane Raises the Knee and Kicks
5. White Crane Salutes the Buddha
6. White Crane Turns, Knees and Kicks
7. White Crane Kicks Back
8. White Crane Knees, Leans Back and Front Kicks
9. Vicious Tiger Back Kicks the Enemy
10. Three Kicks of the White Crane
11. White Crane Guards the Cave
12. White Crane Guards the Nest
13. Vicious Tiger Looks Back
14. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
15. White Crane Knees , Kicks
16. Green Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
17. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
18. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
19. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (R)
20. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (L)
21. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
22. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
23. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
24. White Snake Comes Up to the Water Surface
25. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
26. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
27. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
28. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
29. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
30. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
31. Green Dragon Tests It’s Claw
32. Black Leopard Climbs the Tree
33. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
34. Green Dragon Swings It’s Claw
35. White Snake Climbs Over the Twig
36. Golden Leopard Bounces the Ball
37. Golden Leopard Rolls the Ball
38. Golden Leopard Strikes the Ball
39. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
40. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
41. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
42. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
43. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
44. Green Dragon Snatches the Pearl
45. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg ( L)
46. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg (R)
47. Black Leopard Twist It’s Neck
48. White Crane Spreads It’ s Wings
49. White Crane Strikes It’s Wings
50. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
51. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
52. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
53. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
54. White Crane Strikes Out with Both Wings
55. White Strikes Out With It’s (L) Wing
56. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
57. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
58. White Strikes Out With Both Wings
59. White Crane Strikes Out with It’s (R) Wing
60. Wild Tiger Pushes the ( Hua ) Mountain
61. Vicious Tiger Nods It’s Head
62. White Crane Jumps Over the Twig
63. White Crane Smashes It’s (L ) Foot
64. White Crane Stands on One Leg
65. White Crane Defends the Cave
66. White Crane Defends the Nest
67. White Crane Smashes It’s (R) Foot
68. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
69. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
70. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
71. Green Dragon Stretches It’s (R) Leg
72. Wild Tiger Looks Back
73. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
74. Golden Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
75. Golden Leopard Twists It’s Body
76. White Crane Opens It’s (R) Wing
77. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
78. Black Dragon Turns the Body
79. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
80. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
81. Black Dragon Turns the Body
82. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
83. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
84. Black Dragon Turn the Body
85. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claws
86. Black Dragons It’s Claw
87. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Ocean
88. Green Dragon Come Out of the Ocean
89. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
90. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
91. Golden Leopard Looks at the Moon
92. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
93. Golden Leopard Scratches It’s Back (Three Elbows)
94. White Snake Looks at the Road
95. Green Dragon Comes Up from the Sea
96. Twin White Cranes Raise their Heads
97. White Snake Throws It’s Tongue Out (Spits Venom?)
98. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
99. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
100. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
101. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
102. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
103. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
104. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
105. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
106. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
107. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
108. Vicious Tiger Turns It’s Head
109. Black Leopard Strikes (Stomps) the Ground
110. Golden Snake Strikes Out of the Willow Tree
111. Green Dragon Comes up From the Ocean
112. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
113. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
114. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
115. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
116. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
117. Wild Tiger Looks Back
118. Golden Leopard Hangs from the Tree Branch
119. Golden Leopard Salutes the Buddha
120. White Crane Leaps, Kicks Behind
121. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Lake
122. Move Back and Ride the Tiger
123. White Crane Knee And Spread the Wings
124. Double Snakes Jump Over the Twig
125. White Snake Salutes the Buddha
126. Vicious Tiger Salutes the Buddha
127. Green Dragon Salutes The Buddha
128. Conclusion of the Form

To start with :
13. white crane smashes his right foot
14. vicious tiger turns his head
15. white crane knees, kicks and spreads the wings.

I started to go through the whole thing but it's just too long. Anyway, if you want pictures of the form buy Doc-fai wong's book or video. It's almost the exact same with only minor differences.
I had bought the book years ago when it was first published in 1990. Later, Master Bill was offering a class and I was curious if it would be the same. And what do you know, almost exact. I ask Doc fai wong about it and he says Sin The' stole the form from him, of course Sin The denied it.
This is why I draw my own conclusion that the core material taught by Hiang and Sin was legitimately taught to them. Anything after 1990 I just have a hard time buying.

[shen ku]

PEACE@LOVE,,,,,, just keep in mind that it is your path you are walking, and if he really wants to fallow up with you outside of class he will bring it to you ,,,,and then show him what its all about,,, but just keep walking your path,,,there are more of us like you in this world and in the arts , so don't feel alone

[shen ku]

9807!!!!!!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

I started to go through the whole thing but it's just too long. Anyway, if you want pictures of the form buy Doc-fai wong's book or video. It's almost the exact same with only minor differences.
I had bought the book years ago when it was first published in 1990. Later, Master Bill was offering a class and I was curious if it would be the same. And what do you know, almost exact. I ask Doc fai wong about it and he says Sin The' stole the form from him, of course Sin The denied it.
This is why I draw my own conclusion that the core material taught by Hiang and Sin was legitimately taught to them. Anything after 1990 I just have a hard time buying. Whatever the case maybe, these are GMS's translations and not DFW's.

I have the book.

Funny that GMS's translations coincides with the 128 postures( there are more moves indicated in DFW's translation) and yet DFW's does not .

GMS's is more detailed than DFW'S .

The only way GMS could have stolen it, is if DFW created it himself, which he did not.

I think it help substatiate GMS's claim about the system.

Why would GMS and DFW be the only ones who teach this form, yet both of them talk about how famous and well known a Shaolin form it is?

[sean_stonehart]

Whatever the case maybe, these are GMS's translations and not DFW's.

I have the book.

Cool...



Funny that GMS's translations coincides with the 128 postures( there are more moves indicated in DFW's translation) and yet DFW's does not .

There's a reason for that.



GMS's is more detailed than DFW'S .

You think?



The only way GMS could have stolen it, is if DFW created it himself, which he did not.

Lau Bun brought the set with him to North America in 1922. He taught it until he died in 1967. DFW learned in the mid to late 60's from Lau Bun & his senior classmates. It's been performed in SF's Chinatown, Los Angeles, Maryville since Lau Bun arrived in pieces & completely. I've seen video of a teenaged DFW performing in 1967.



I think it help substatiate GMS's claim about the system.

How?



Why would GMS and DFW be the only ones who teach this form, yet both of them talk about how famous and well known a Shaolin form it is?

Marketing... I can name a handful of other CMA's off the top of my head that have their own version of Ng Ying. CLF has at least 3. Siu Lum Ng Ying Kuen (Shaolin Wu Xing Quan) is a generic name, but DFW put his book out first. First come, first serve.

Here's a better question... why does the SD version kinda look like DFW's?

[Citong Shifu]

...... notes , the ones that are handed out at the seminar, are only one sided. I did my best to reconstruct them. Please correct them or if I have missed or need to change. I am going to do the Chinese translation for them as well.

1. Getting Ready Position
2. White Crane Flies to the Edge of the Sky
3. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
4. White Crane Raises the Knee and Kicks
5. White Crane Salutes the Buddha
6. White Crane Turns, Knees and Kicks
7. White Crane Kicks Back
8. White Crane Knees, Leans Back and Front Kicks
9. Vicious Tiger Back Kicks the Enemy
10. Three Kicks of the White Crane
11. White Crane Guards the Cave
12. White Crane Guards the Nest
13. Vicious Tiger Looks Back
14. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
15. White Crane Knees , Kicks
16. Green Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
17. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
18. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
19. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (R)
20. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (L)
21. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
22. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
23. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
24. White Snake Comes Up to the Water Surface
25. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
26. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
27. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
28. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
29. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
30. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
31. Green Dragon Tests It’s Claw
32. Black Leopard Climbs the Tree
33. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
34. Green Dragon Swings It’s Claw
35. White Snake Climbs Over the Twig
36. Golden Leopard Bounces the Ball
37. Golden Leopard Rolls the Ball
38. Golden Leopard Strikes the Ball
39. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
40. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
41. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
42. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
43. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
44. Green Dragon Snatches the Pearl
45. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg ( L)
46. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg (R)
47. Black Leopard Twist It’s Neck
48. White Crane Spreads It’ s Wings
49. White Crane Strikes It’s Wings
50. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
51. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
52. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
53. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
54. White Crane Strikes Out with Both Wings
55. White Strikes Out With It’s (L) Wing
56. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
57. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
58. White Strikes Out With Both Wings
59. White Crane Strikes Out with It’s (R) Wing
60. Wild Tiger Pushes the ( Hua ) Mountain
61. Vicious Tiger Nods It’s Head
62. White Crane Jumps Over the Twig
63. White Crane Smashes It’s (L ) Foot
64. White Crane Stands on One Leg
65. White Crane Defends the Cave
66. White Crane Defends the Nest
67. White Crane Smashes It’s (R) Foot
68. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
69. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
70. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
71. Green Dragon Stretches It’s (R) Leg
72. Wild Tiger Looks Back
73. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
74. Golden Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
75. Golden Leopard Twists It’s Body
76. White Crane Opens It’s (R) Wing
77. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
78. Black Dragon Turns the Body
79. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
80. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
81. Black Dragon Turns the Body
82. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
83. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
84. Black Dragon Turn the Body
85. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claws
86. Black Dragons It’s Claw
87. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Ocean
88. Green Dragon Come Out of the Ocean
89. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
90. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
91. Golden Leopard Looks at the Moon
92. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
93. Golden Leopard Scratches It’s Back (Three Elbows)
94. White Snake Looks at the Road
95. Green Dragon Comes Up from the Sea
96. Twin White Cranes Raise their Heads
97. White Snake Throws It’s Tongue Out (Spits Venom?)
98. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
99. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
100. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
101. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
102. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
103. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
104. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
105. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
106. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
107. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
108. Vicious Tiger Turns It’s Head
109. Black Leopard Strikes (Stomps) the Ground
110. Golden Snake Strikes Out of the Willow Tree
111. Green Dragon Comes up From the Ocean
112. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
113. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
114. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
115. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
116. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
117. Wild Tiger Looks Back
118. Golden Leopard Hangs from the Tree Branch
119. Golden Leopard Salutes the Buddha
120. White Crane Leaps, Kicks Behind
121. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Lake
122. Move Back and Ride the Tiger
123. White Crane Knee And Spread the Wings
124. Double Snakes Jump Over the Twig
125. White Snake Salutes the Buddha
126. Vicious Tiger Salutes the Buddha
127. Green Dragon Salutes The Buddha
128. Conclusion of the Form

Curious as to why most people throw these away. I find them to be very helpful and valuable. I am missing a few from various forms but have most of the ones that were released or I have made reconstructed copies

When did Shaolin create this 5 Animal Form (year, naster & temple)? From my understanding of Shaolin Martial Arts there was and is no such "Original Shaolin 5 Animal style/form". 5 Animal was not created in Shaolin or by Shaolin. Furthermore, it has never been archived that Shaolin trained or had a 5 animal form/style until this last decade with China trying to build Shaolin kung fu as the birth of all martial arts... Anywho, not preaching here. It's, to many people use the Shaolin name to give credit to their art or themselves. Oh well, thought I would throw that little piece of info out there.

[SDJerry]

I have been training in little over a year in SD. I researched a number of other systems and schools, and the local SD school best fit my schedule. I also liked the fact that the internal arts were taught and practiced there as well. Unfortunately, I have had a recent incident that has left me puzzled and disappointed. Feedback in regards to this would be helpful.

Previous to SD, I trained in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut. We played "sticky" hands and feet regularly and did controlled sparring without gear that was very intense at times. Last night, I played hands with someone who is getting ready to test for a black belt. They did not do well against me and proceeded to strike me in the chin with a fist, which I let go as a mistake. Looking back. it was on purpose I think out of frustration. As the process continued, the person gave me three cheap shot to the neck before reconnecting hands. Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

I think the real tragedy here is the fact that the guy you mentioned is getting ready to be awarded a black belt. That is a school problem. IMO they are doing that student as much of a disservice as they are everyone else who currently holds and trained hard for a black belt.

[Baqualin]

I have been training in little over a year in SD. I researched a number of other systems and schools, and the local SD school best fit my schedule. I also liked the fact that the internal arts were taught and practiced there as well. Unfortunately, I have had a recent incident that has left me puzzled and disappointed. Feedback in regards to this would be helpful.

Previous to SD, I trained in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut. We played "sticky" hands and feet regularly and did controlled sparring without gear that was very intense at times. Last night, I played hands with someone who is getting ready to test for a black belt. They did not do well against me and proceeded to strike me in the chin with a fist, which I let go as a mistake. Looking back. it was on purpose I think out of frustration. As the process continued, the person gave me three cheap shot to the neck before reconnecting hands. Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

Hey P&L,
Something will be done if this person continues this behavior......disrespect is not tolerated in our school and if I'm not mistaken your studing in Tenn., M. Mullens will not tolerate this either.....attacks out of frustration tells me this person has issues....you apparently have more experience with playing hands and he should have respected that and learned from you.....since he's not above Black.....he's still very green in SD and has alot to learn. Discuss this with an upper level....if it continues! Hopefully he will cool down, think about it and apologise.....if not he's headed for an a$$ kicking and will be kicked out....happens alot.
BQ

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Baqualin;896531]

That's not hard to get, when you've been that bad for that long. :eek::p

At least the only way we can go is up and were finally doing that.:p:p:p

[The Willow Sword]

I've never had much direction in my life. I guess in the end all that i ever wanted with SD was to feel like i “Belonged”. I never wanted to create any drama for myself in that school, but because of who i am and how i was raised, i facilitated it anyway. It put people off, and as a result i had difficult times generating the kind of social life i had wanted. Growing up with abuse and being confused about who i was supposed to be as a kid and how i am supposed to be as a young adult put the pressures of thinking that anything that i did or said or how i looked or the way i walked would be thought of as weird or stupid or it would turn people off and i wouldnt have friends. So as a result i “tried too hard” and got myself into situations that were stupid, childish and very immature and i am embarrased for it. I wished i had more guidance,but i have this problem of not trusting anyone. I dont think that my time at SD was all that bad ,but i wished that things had been different. I dont blame SD or Sin The' or Joe Shaefer anymore for the things that happened in that past. I dont care about the history or what i think i discovered and i dont care about feeling betrayed. I dont think i was ever betrayed by those people. I only betrayed myself,and i am embarrased because of it. The way that i am is hard to take at times,my mental and emotional and physical armor is like an eggshell, you can try to squeeze it and break it from end to end and it wont break,but you face the weaker side to people, as i always seemed to have done, and it breaks with ease. But there is a valid reason why i have been the way i have and the attitudes i have exhibited. Its my own problem. I just want to say to you all that i am sorry. Im sorry for everything. Im sorry i offended you Joe. Im sorry i offended you Sin the'. Im sorry i offended you SD. Please find it in your heart, if any of you even think about it still, to forgive me. I wished i was better able to live up to the standards that you and others tried to set for me.
Peace,TWS

[bodhi warrior]

It takes guts to express your feelings and ask forgiveness. I don't know you but I hope you get the forgiveness you seek. But above all else, forgive yourself, learn and grow.
Peace

[peace&love]

It is good to see someone take responsibility for their actions, whatever they may be. The hardest thing for someone to do is to forgive themselves. Please forgive yourself if you have not yet and move on in a positive direction. As mentioned earlier in one of my posts, I recently had an incident with a negative human being that has really disillusioned my views towards my school and has placed me in a very reflective state. Yet, I am thinking positive and looking ahead to good things whether it be with SD or elsewhere. Your post has helped me with my own views. An apology goes a long way. It means a lot to a person who receives it. By doing what you did, you have created a road to better relationships, self confidence, and humility. I wish you nothing but happiness and positive energy. Be well.

[MasterKiller]

What do you guys think of the performances in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi0fnD3hXqo

I think the cat with the chain looks pretty good.

[BentMonk]

What do you guys think of the performances in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi0fnD3hXqo

I think the cat with the chain looks pretty good.

Nice find MK. One of the best representations of SD material that I've seen on the web. Thanks for posting it. Not all of the performances were spectacular, but none of them outright sucked IMO either.

[Baqualin]

I've never had much direction in my life. I guess in the end all that i ever wanted with SD was to feel like i “Belonged”. I never wanted to create any drama for myself in that school, but because of who i am and how i was raised, i facilitated it anyway. It put people off, and as a result i had difficult times generating the kind of social life i had wanted. Growing up with abuse and being confused about who i was supposed to be as a kid and how i am supposed to be as a young adult put the pressures of thinking that anything that i did or said or how i looked or the way i walked would be thought of as weird or stupid or it would turn people off and i wouldnt have friends. So as a result i “tried too hard” and got myself into situations that were stupid, childish and very immature and i am embarrased for it. I wished i had more guidance,but i have this problem of not trusting anyone. I dont think that my time at SD was all that bad ,but i wished that things had been different. I dont blame SD or Sin The' or Joe Shaefer anymore for the things that happened in that past. I dont care about the history or what i think i discovered and i dont care about feeling betrayed. I dont think i was ever betrayed by those people. I only betrayed myself,and i am embarrased because of it. The way that i am is hard to take at times,my mental and emotional and physical armor is like an eggshell, you can try to squeeze it and break it from end to end and it wont break,but you face the weaker side to people, as i always seemed to have done, and it breaks with ease. But there is a valid reason why i have been the way i have and the attitudes i have exhibited. Its my own problem. I just want to say to you all that i am sorry. Im sorry for everything. Im sorry i offended you Joe. Im sorry i offended you Sin the'. Im sorry i offended you SD. Please find it in your heart, if any of you even think about it still, to forgive me. I wished i was better able to live up to the standards that you and others tried to set for me.
Peace,TWS

Hey WS,
Glad to here from you again....... your aways welcome here!!!! Everyone goes through bad times mentally and physically....life is tough and we get knocked down constantly, but we have to stand back up and keep going. Two things EML told me after the end of my 19 year marriage...."don't worry about where you've been.....don't worry about where you are now......just think about where your going from here.....that's the only thing you can do anything about".:) the other was, "you may feel like your dying now....but there's life after death" ;) People do care about you and wish you well.....if you learned anything about SD is that we really do care.....all the people who give us flack have realized that were pretty good people.
Peace be with you TWS,
BQ

Always welcome to look me up when your in the area!!

[Baqualin]

What do you guys think of the performances in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi0fnD3hXqo

I think the cat with the chain looks pretty good.

Not bad..Master Reid looked really good. I didn't think much of the internal demos though.
BQ

[MasterKiller]

Not bad..Master Reid looked really good. I didn't think much of the internal demos though.
BQ

Is his Tiger/Crane a good display?

[Baqualin]

Is his Tiger/Crane a good display?

I'm much better at seeing the internal, since thats all I've done for years now.....but based on his size I thought it look good and he seemed to move without thinking about what came next in the form...he flowed naturally and showed intent with each move. I'm sure a T/C specialist would pick at it......but Master Reid is a really big guy:eek:...that handles his size very well.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Hey MK,
My bad...I went back and looked at the vid again....I realized the T/C demo was sifu Smith & not Master Reid.....I still liked it and he's a big guy too. Master Reid is doing our Dragon Pakua form...missed it first time through....I did like the way it was done....rest of internal didn't really like.
BQ

[BM2]

I have been training in little over a year in SD. I researched a number of other systems and schools, and the local SD school best fit my schedule. I also liked the fact that the internal arts were taught and practiced there as well. Unfortunately, I have had a recent incident that has left me puzzled and disappointed. Feedback in regards to this would be helpful.

Previous to SD, I trained in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut. We played "sticky" hands and feet regularly and did controlled sparring without gear that was very intense at times. Last night, I played hands with someone who is getting ready to test for a black belt. They did not do well against me and proceeded to strike me in the chin with a fist, which I let go as a mistake. Looking back. it was on purpose I think out of frustration. As the process continued, the person gave me three cheap shot to the neck before reconnecting hands. Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

I have thought about this for a while which means I should have waited a little longer before responding to this post.
Everyone has a ego and by relizing that, you can keep it in check.
You hurt his ego, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Just kidding.
Don't put so much about him into your class. Really, it doesn't take anything away from you. You will continue to run in to people like him through life as well as in class.
A black belt just means you can do the basics.
About sixteen years or so ago, a fourth degree black belt asked me to help him stretch against the wall. He was doing the side stretch with his head down by his knee :confused: and asked me to put his leg against the wall. He then said " I can stretch fully but can not side kick as high as this. I took this as asking for an explanation and responded, " You don't kick with your head down by your supporting knee and that is how you are doing it, if you want to stretch for a side kick, put your shoulder to the wall and stand sideways to me." When he did, he could only get his leg up about a 40 degree angle. I said "See, you have been doing it wrong and this will help you kick higher."
He didn't like getting his leg up so low and asked to stretch him the old way with his leg against the wall and his head down.:rolleyes:
At the end of class, he announced to everyone that he was going to spar me. I, being a little slow, didn't know that I had hurt his ego and he was going to try to put it on me. He went hard and I didn't think nothing of it as that is how some spar and I had never sparred him before. He ripped my shirt and he seemed to be a little embarssed and apologized for tearing it. We were not wearing gi tops.
I couldn't care less about him as he does not affect me. I say hi when I see him but don't buddy up to him.

[Judge Pen]

Is his Tiger/Crane a good display?

Let me be hyper-critical here, because its the internet and its not me on video doing the forms:

With all due resect to sifu smith, I didn't like his tiger/crane very much. Granted my horse stance isn't as strong as it should be, but I was taught that the butt should be at the knee and his hand techniques were off. It seems as if he was so hyped up for the performance that he sped through many of the techniques to the point that they were shorted and not fully extended. He also seemed to sacrifice balance at times. It wasn't bad, but I've seen better from my perspective and he was obviously taught a bit differently than I was.

The chain-whip demo was nice.

The youth long-fist was a too high in their stances. (their butts should have been at their ankles for a good portionof that form)

Hsing-Ie two man set needed to be crisper and faster. No apparent connection between the body and the technique. No rooting or internal power generation from San Ti.

The gentlemen doing 7* sword was very stiff. Don't know if it was nerves or physical limitations.

Classical pa Kua was an excellent represenation of SD pa kua (although it would have been nicer if the camera was further away to show his footwork.

As far as Master Reid, he may do some of the forms differently then the way I was taught, but that's no crititic. He is one of the best SD people out there.

I could probably nit-pick almost every form there. If I was on video doing these forms (I know almost all of them myself) I could be just as, if not more critical. All and all it was a basic, across the board sampling of your typical SD class. Good and bad.

[Baqualin]

Let me be hyper-critical here, because its the internet and its not me on video doing the forms:

With all due resect to sifu smith, I didn't like his tiger/crane very much. Granted my horse stance isn't as strong as it should be, but I was taught that the butt should be at the knee and his hand techniques were off. It seems as if he was so hyped up for the performance that he sped through many of the techniques to the point that they were shorted and not fully extended. He also seemed to sacrifice balance at times. It wasn't bad, but I've seen better from my perspective and he was obviously taught a bit differently than I was.

The chain-whip demo was nice.

The youth long-fist was a too high in their stances. (their butts should have been at their ankles for a good portionof that form)

Hsing-Ie two man set needed to be crisper and faster. No apparent connection between the body and the technique. No rooting or internal power generation from San Ti.

The gentlemen doing 7* sword was very stiff. Don't know if it was nerves or physical limitations.

Classical pa Kua was an excellent represenation of SD pa kua (although it would have been nicer if the camera was further away to show his footwork.

As far as Master Reid, he may do some of the forms differently then the way I was taught, but that's no crititic. He is one of the best SD people out there.

I could probably nit-pick almost every form there. If I was on video doing these forms (I know almost all of them myself) I could be just as, if not more critical. All and all it was a basic, across the board sampling of your typical SD class. Good and bad.

I agree...like I said I see more of the internal.....I thought in the Classical Pakua he was putting to much snap in his hits...were taught to be more free flowing.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

I agree...like I said I see more of the internal.....I thought in the Classical Pakua he was putting to much snap in his hits...were taught to be more free flowing.
BQ

I can see that, but I thought his transitions were very flowing despite the snap. Plus I know the guy and have seen him move in person, so I have a very high opinion of his ability.

Master Tremayne Brown and Master Reid are very fine representations of SD in Atlanta. I wouldn't hesitate to train with either of them.

[Baqualin]

Seeing the whole demo of each and a full picture as to see the footwork would help...besides the snapping, I would liked to see more intent....the speed he was doing the form for demo purposes might have cause some of this . It is, a good representation of SD preformances....... Overall great marketing piece. The Terra Cotta soldiers were awesome.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Seeing the whole demo of each and a full picture as to see the footwork would help...besides the snapping, I would liked to see more intent....the speed he was doing the form for demo purposes might have cause some of this . It is, a good representation of SD preformances....... Overall great marketing piece. The Terra Cotta soldiers were awesome.
BQ

KC and I were working on Pa Kua this weekend. There are differences in the way he was taught versus the way I was taught. Let me ans you a generic question: Typically what speed do you perform classical pa kua (specifically the circle walking)? I take it from this comment, you think Master Brown steps were faster then the form typcially should be trained?

[Baqualin]

KC and I were working on Pa Kua this weekend. There are differences in the way he was taught versus the way I was taught. Let me ans you a generic question: Typically what speed do you perform classical pa kua (specifically the circle walking)? I take it from this comment, you think Master Brown steps were faster then the form typcially should be trained?

Yes, I think he was rushing (I do that sometimes in demos....you get excited)......you should train at a speed that allows you to maintain the intent of each posture, stepping and the principles of the 64 rules (this is harder than it sounds)...if you can increase your speed and maintain these principals...great....if not, your just running around a circle, bouncing up & down, flailing arms (you will see alot of this in SD) and getting nothing out of the form. Go back and look at the old KET shows.....there's some of EM Smith & EM Leonard doing Classical.....they move slower than most you see.....they maintain the principles. If you train at the three height levels and maintain the above you will have a routine from hell....I have the pleasure of going through it with EML on occasion and he glides around the circle like he's on air cushions. I'm a long ways from mastering this....but that day will come:)

[Golden Tiger]

Nice demo. Some things to nit pick but over all, nice.

As for the Pa Kua speed question, BQ is the man on that one. I am thinking about 2X tai chi 24 speed. For classical, you should use the mechanics of the form to generate power, not speed. Now with some of the others, speed comes into place once the mechanics are understood. Think 64 vs. 24 vs Chen 128. Learn to crawl, then walk then finally run.

As my old basket ball coach used to say: Technique, follow through then the shot will come.

[LaterthanNever]

It;s ok I guess. The Tiger/Crane seemed a bit off..his right hand should not have been so relaxed and just hanging there in the beginning of the est.

The internal stuff seems like it is performed externally.

I'd rate it fair...4 on a scale of 10. But I've seen alot worse..such as Temple Kung fu guys..:rolleyes:

I want to make the following statement:

Any art in which people learn greater self discipline, respect for others, and oh..self defense too is good :)

But when the SD people tell me that they can learn "900 styles" or whatever the # is..I still can't help but cringe..and I mean that I'm not trying to intentionally throw that in their faces..

It's just that..there seems to be this confusion. If someone learns Fu-Hok(as taught in Hung Ga) ..this is NOT an entire STYLE. It's a form OF a style.

As for learning 900 forms? By ONE person?

NOT IN THIS LIFETIME!

I've seen a list of the SD guys "forms" and some of them are the names of patterns in forms. An example of a pattern would be "Youngster bows to Buddah" or "Beauty looks into mirror".

If the SD people want to say "You can learn 900 patterns..split among..30 forms(or a more reasonable number)..then I would be not so...

how can I put it..my bullsh-t detector would not be going off.

[bodhi warrior]

It;s ok I guess. The Tiger/Crane seemed a bit off..his right hand should not have been so relaxed and just hanging there in the beginning of the est.

The internal stuff seems like it is performed externally.

I'd rate it fair...4 on a scale of 10. But I've seen alot worse..such as Temple Kung fu guys..:rolleyes:

I want to make the following statement:

Any art in which people learn greater self discipline, respect for others, and oh..self defense too is good :)

But when the SD people tell me that they can learn "900 styles" or whatever the # is..I still can't help but cringe..and I mean that I'm not trying to intentionally throw that in their faces..

It's just that..there seems to be this confusion. If someone learns Fu-Hok(as taught in Hung Ga) ..this is NOT an entire STYLE. It's a form OF a style.

As for learning 900 forms? By ONE person?

NOT IN THIS LIFETIME!

I've seen a list of the SD guys "forms" and some of them are the names of patterns in forms. An example of a pattern would be "Youngster bows to Buddah" or "Beauty looks into mirror".

If the SD people want to say "You can learn 900 patterns..split among..30 forms(or a more reasonable number)..then I would be not so...

how can I put it..my bullsh-t detector would not be going off.

If you count the number of long forms taught up to 5th black there are only 85.
This is counting the hsing i 12 animals as 1 form, the five fist as one form. And not counting the conditioning forms or basic short forms.
This is significantly less than choy li fut which list well over 200 forms.
And less than the number of long forms taught out by his brother.
It's funny hearing Master Sin claim to have mastered 900 forms but his brother never made such claims that I know of and he was a 7th degree black.
According to Master Sin's own words he was going to teach everything he knew in 10 years, making this comment in the late 80's I believe. Then he goes to indonesia and is given all of Master Ie's notes, now he knows 900!

[bodhi warrior]

I was on the Mullins website looking at the forms database and it states that all material is copywrited and cannot be taught without permission of GM sin or Master Mullins.
Can you actually copywrite material in a system? I mean all the other students GM Ie had that could be teaching this material or Hiang The' who teaches much of the same material are breaching a copywrite on forms?!
My question is does he have a legal right to do this?

[LaterthanNever]

"Then he goes to indonesia and is given all of Master Ie's notes, now he knows 900! "

I'm sure he has enough $. Let him spend a few years putting ALL 900 on video for the public to see..THEN I will believe it.

Until that time..it's just an unsubstantiated claim. I can claim I know 4,000 forms--doesn't mean it is true.

Besides..more is not necessarily better..

[Toby]

If you count the number of long forms taught up to 5th black there are only 85.
This is counting the hsing i 12 animals as 1 form, the five fist as one form ...Xing yi animals aren't one form, elements aren't one form. And that whole system is one that takes some practitioners many years to get really proficient in (i.e. not just mimicking movement but owning it) and a lifetime to master. And yet it's a stepping stone, simultaneously "learned" with many other forms from disparate styles to progress between two black belts?

[bodhi warrior]

Xing yi animals aren't one form, elements aren't one form. And that whole system is one that takes some practitioners many years to get really proficient in (i.e. not just mimicking movement but owning it) and a lifetime to master. And yet it's a stepping stone, simultaneously "learned" with many other forms from disparate styles to progress between two black belts?

I agree they are not one form. I just counted them as one for counting purposes.

There are other shaolin groups that teach the internal arts to supplement their systems, ie. peter chema group, tang shou tao, choy li fut etc.

[Leto]

I was on the Mullins website looking at the forms database and it states that all material is copywrited and cannot be taught without permission of GM sin or Master Mullins.
Can you actually copywrite material in a system? I mean all the other students GM Ie had that could be teaching this material or Hiang The' who teaches much of the same material are breaching a copywrite on forms?!
My question is does he have a legal right to do this?

I think it was determined that you cannot copywrite the material itself. Once you learn something, you've learned it and it's yours to do with as you wish. But you can copywrite a system or method of instruction. So the ordering and format (and the name that you call your system) in which the forms are taught can be copywrited, and can't be reproduced without consent. I'm not sure if this applies to the actual names of the forms, or just the school and system in general.

[naja]

I think it was determined that you cannot copywrite the material itself. Once you learn something, you've learned it and it's yours to do with as you wish.

I was thinking the same thing. Look at the horse stance. Practically every CMA has it, and look at the kicks as well. You can't copyright such things. It would be like trying to copyright a jab or left hook in boxing.

[peace&love]

Maybe SD has just copyrighted the name and its use, but it does seem that they have referred to specifically the material. It is a bit odd. A lot of the forms have been taught in other systems and styles. That seems to happen a lot in kung fu.

Anyway, I have decided to take a little break from SD after a recent classroom incident was not handled as professionally as I would have liked, and do some meditation on it. My current SD school is very small and has not grown in the past year. If anything, we have lost students, and after a little time to think, I may be gone as well. It is unfortunate because we are in an area where we should have a ton of students. I believe a lack of seriousness on most of the practitioners has a lot to do with it. Also, many of the senior students were studying elsewhere with other systems at the same time. The head instructor was doing the same. This could have been time spent training us with more class options or using the time to get the word out on the school so it could potentially grow. We have some great people there, but they just don't have the time it seems.

Fortunately, some more traditional kung fu schools have opened since my original sifu had to close his school down due to family matter a little over a year ago. I'm going to check them out and keep an open mind. The local SD school has promised to make some changes in attitudes and teaching methods immediately, but it may be a little to late. I will keep an eye out and see what happens.

I hope all on the forum have a great Thanksgiving.

[B-Rad]

I was on the Mullins website looking at the forms database and it states that all material is copywrited and cannot be taught without permission of GM sin or Master Mullins.
Can you actually copywrite material in a system? I mean all the other students GM Ie had that could be teaching this material or Hiang The' who teaches much of the same material are breaching a copywrite on forms?!
My question is does he have a legal right to do this?

Could have copyrighted the specific training program (learn this for red belt, this for black, etc.). Seeing as how much material was "borrowed" from other systems, he obviously couldn't enforce any kind of copyright on the material itself individually. The actual belt system curriculum though is a modern invention, so if he came up with it himself he could copyright it as a whole, I think. The explanation could be poorly written, not understood well by Mullens, or they're just bullshi*ting to discourage random students from stealing their curriculum and starting their own school.

[kwaichang]

The matter has been settled in court and the individual that was taken to court no longer teaches SD as a whole or in part. He was also a student of Mullins a long time back KC

[bodhi warrior]

The matter has been settled in court and the individual that was taken to court no longer teaches SD as a whole or in part. He was also a student of Mullins a long time back KC

So does this mean Sin The won the settlement or the student?

[kwaichang]

Grand Master Sin The won KC

[bodhi warrior]

Grand Master Sin The won KC

So when you say GM Sin won the case, do you mean he does have the copywrite on the forms he teaches or the structure that the forms are taught in? If i'm no longer part of the organization can I still teach the forms that I learned?

[kwaichang]

My understanding is if you teach the forms and the style you are in direct competition with the school that taught you , most schools have a no competition clause but why would you want to teach something from a style you quit or do not believe in ?? KC

[bodhi warrior]

My understanding is if you teach the forms and the style you are in direct competition with the school that taught you , most schools have a no competition clause but why would you want to teach something from a style you quit or do not believe in ?? KC

I never quit my art. I still practice everyday, I just chose to narrow my focus on what I know instead of piling on more forms.
And I do believe in the art as it used to be taught in the old days, which is the way I still train, conditioning, sparring, and a more narrow focus on forms.
I do not believe in the art as it is taught today. Promoting people to master level who obviously have no real skills, but are allowed to teach. This apparent need to add more and more forms for whatever reason ($).
I remember seeing this guy in a demo a couple years ago. He was a 4th black doing drunken spear. This guy dropped the spear numerous times, his spins were slow and weak and yet he was a 4th black!? This is just one example. There are many. If he was a brown belt or 1st black maybe, but 4th?

And I still dont see how Sin can copywrite forms he didn't create.

[kwaichang]

Ok ,well it has been my understanding that one is promoted as compared to what the were at the beginning or for personal growth. If no one was promoted that couldnt do the forms perfectly then no one would progress. Some of the BB forms have the front or side splits in them . Can you do them ?? Most cant then should they be held back ?? Not all MA are gifted some just continue to train and improve more slowly , Kung Fu is effort not skill. KC

[bodhi warrior]

Ok ,well it has been my understanding that one is promoted as compared to what the were at the beginning or for personal growth. If no one was promoted that couldnt do the forms perfectly then no one would progress. Some of the BB forms have the front or side splits in them . Can you do them ?? Most cant then should they be held back ?? Not all MA are gifted some just continue to train and improve more slowly , Kung Fu is effort not skill. KC

Kung fu is effort over time whose purpose is to accomplish skill. If you put the time and effort in you will get the skill and it will show.
As far as being held back, if part of the testing is say doing a back flip or something along those lines in one of the drunken immortals, and you can't do the required skill to complete that form correctly then I say yes hold them back.
If I can't do a specific skill in a form after years of practice then I don't need to be testing for the next rank. I should keep practicing.

[kwaichang]

So as you judge you will be judged, I suppose you did all your Forms perfectly then?? Probably not but you progressed anyway. Kung fu says nothing of skill that is your definition it is just effort. KC

[Leto]

I never quit my art. I still practice everyday, I just chose to narrow my focus on what I know instead of piling on more forms.
And I do believe in the art as it used to be taught in the old days, which is the way I still train, conditioning, sparring, and a more narrow focus on forms.
I do not believe in the art as it is taught today. Promoting people to master level who obviously have no real skills, but are allowed to teach. This apparent need to add more and more forms for whatever reason ($).
I remember seeing this guy in a demo a couple years ago. He was a 4th black doing drunken spear. This guy dropped the spear numerous times, his spins were slow and weak and yet he was a 4th black!? This is just one example. There are many. If he was a brown belt or 1st black maybe, but 4th?

And I still dont see how Sin can copywrite forms he didn't create.

I hear you, I'm in the same spot.

I was thinking about copyrighting forms, and I suppose it's about the same thing as dance choreography. And apparently dance choreography can be copyrighted.
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl119.html

You just have to have a video of the choreographed piece, or a detailed written description.

in fact, I found the shaolin do copyright from 1990, and it is in fact under the category of dramatic work and music or choreography. Submitted in the form of a videocassette
I think the actual copyright was discussed on the thread before.

this is from the US copyright office website, where you can look up anything copyrighted since 1978

Type of Work: Dramatic Work and Music; or Choreography
Registration Number / Date: PAu001493404 / 1990-08-09
Title: Shaolin do.
Description: videocassette.
Notes: Cataloged from appl.
Copyright Claimant: Sin Kwang The
Date of Creation: 1980
Authorship on Application: Sin Kwang The.
Previous Registration: Martial arts movements preexisting.
Basis of Claim: New Matter: selection & ordering of exercises.
Copyright Note: C.O. correspondence.

I'm not exactly sure what this all means. Also, we don't know exactly what was on that videotape that was submitted. And I wonder does he continue to submit videos and copyright the new material that comes out, or is it technically only that which was part of the system in 1990?

certainly, 24 posture taiji, the jiang rong quiao's classical bagua form, the xingyi five elements and 12 animals, and many others in the system, cannot be copyrighted as they are widely taught and available for learning from many sources. And it's a good point about Hiang The and Ie Chang Ming's other students...they learned much of the same material, but not from Sin The. So the actual forms could not be copyrighted, except for those which Gm The invented himself. It would interesting to see what was on the video tape or tapes he submitted.
The main thing is the order in which the forms are taught, which comprises the system. If you leave some forms out, or teach them in a different order, then you're not violating the copyright, I think. Anyway, as long as someone doesn't stay too close to their old school or shaolin do, they could easily get away with teaching whatever they want. I know for a fact there are people out there teaching some of the material they learned in shaolin do or CSC in their own schools.
If someone changed the name of the school, organized things a little bit differently, added or removed things, then I don't think they would be in violation of the copyright.

[MasterKiller]

My understanding is if you teach the forms and the style you are in direct competition with the school that taught you , most schools have a no competition clause but why would you want to teach something from a style you quit or do not believe in ?? KC

It's my understanding that he did not win the legal case. I thought it was settled and the other part just agreed to not call what he taught "Shaolin-Do."

We discussed this back on page 426, and TattooedMonk's answer matched what one of Barry Van Over's students told me


He lost the right to teach the art as it was structured, but could not be stopped from teaching the material . Because he did not want to stir things up any further he chose not to teach it anymore. But from what I heard he still teaches it in a smaller capacity.Just what I heard. it was either the Soards or Master Sin himself that told me this or someone in their circle.

[Judge Pen]

It's my understanding that he did not win the legal case. I thought it was settled and the other part just agreed to not call what he taught "Shaolin-Do."

We discussed this back on page 426, and TattooedMonk's answer matched what one of Barry Van Over's students told me

It was settled out of Court so there's no record of who "won" or "lost"--it was compromised and then voluntarily dismissed; however, my understanding is that Van Over agreed not to teach the forms as structured. The techniques could be re-ordered and new forms created from the techniques. I know several people that have trained at his schools. Their stuff is a mix-mash of forms made up by Van Over or from seminars and forms that Van Over became "certified" to teach such as his Krav Maga program.

The issue of whether SD can enforce its apparent copyright has not been litigated fully. Until a Court rules that it is not enforceable, then legally you can assume he has a valid copyright over the core material and the material that is taught only in SD. The other material that was referenced is widely taught and would fall into the category of public domain.

[shen ku]

i heard in this way, from master sin ,,,,,on dvd,,,,, the case became not a copyright thing but a "trade secret" issue...... trade secret has jail time to it?? it was seteled out of court that he could only teach up to and not past SDs 1st brown level,,,, i did have an articl somewhere ,,years ago ,, that had vanover selling our 2nd brown bird forms on dvd, it was with dillimans group.......
i had another articl,from MAsuccess mag. that roughly layed out how his ranking system went,,, not listing the material... 6 low level belts at that time (basic drills and toury. type forms) and 6 high rank,,,, you would speicalize in tourny forms, tranitional weapons,, and such was how you got higher ranking,,,,,but master sin does state this about the trade secret and what he was allowed to do on a dvd,

[kwaichang]

I have been to his school it is 5 miles from where I live. He does not teach anything even close to SD unless you call a horse stance and a straight punch SD. Here is what occured. He was training under Master Mullins he opened another SD school then told his students he was THE Master and GM The and EM Mullins were dead. He was taken to court for teaching CR material and told to stop . He is a money maker period; that is where these rumors of it is just for money are taken from , or part of it. Still why teach something or part of something. I feel the introduction of a new form will challenge the body in new and diverse ways. Those who stop at what they like or are good at are in my opinion resting on their haunches and not truly challenging themselves or their minds to grow. Can one use the forms for combat ? maybe not but in doing the form you train a concept say 1000 times and a punch or strike 5000 times then you will be a better tactician and fighter for it. As far as testing I dont care much for testing either but who am I to judge. I have done pre testing and I keep in mind why the person is there , fitness , anger mgmnt, or to loearn to fight or the art itself. I use that as a basis of passing or not passing a test And there ability in the form area is also involved. Why be like Jethro and quit at 6th grade when you can continue and get your Doctorate? Happy Thanksgiving all KC

[Toby]

Ok ,well it has been my understanding that one is promoted as compared to what the were at the beginning or for personal growth. If no one was promoted that couldnt do the forms perfectly then no one would progress. Some of the BB forms have the front or side splits in them . Can you do them ?? Most cant then should they be held back ??Um, yeah :confused:. If you can't do something then you shouldn't be "promoted" to a level that required that something :confused:. This is why I'm thankful I don't train in a system with "levels" or "grades".

[Judge Pen]

I think the problem in this logic is the assumption that to advance in a skill (not necessarily rank) you have to be able to perform more complex or difficult physical tasks. A form, if trained properly, requires you to understand the principles of that forms footwork, strategy, logic--the foundation of the idea behind it. The physical techniques of a form are only a pre-arranged expression of those ideas--but they are not the foundation of the style itself (which is why simply doing all of the movements of a style's form doesn't mean that you are doing the style itself).

If a form has certain physical movement (such as the example of falling into a split) then why is that move an expressions of the underlying principals of the style. Is it the split that is the most important element, or the evasive principle it represents. If one can do a form and understand its principals then, it isn't as important that every move be perfect as long as their expression of the style shows an understanding of the fundamentals and an ability to make those fundamentals work for you (whether or not you can still physically do every technique in a form).

[SoCo KungFu]

It depends on what the requirement was...

Its one thing if such and such move is simply an expression of a principle. Then yeah if the principle can be executed by a practitioner, I suppose that would be satisfactory.

But on another end what if such and such move is not based on principle, technique or any of that? Maybe said move is simply a mark of physical achievement. Since fighting is a physical act requiring physical conditioning to perform, its only logical that a successful training plan would require certain benchmarks to be met (full on splits would be extreme, but since that move was brought up). So...if the plan required a certain physical mark to be met in order for advancement; in that light then no, they should not be promoted.

This is why forms are a poor way of judging a martial artist.

[Toby]

... expressions of the underlying principals of the style ...Sure, I get your point. But I would expect the ability to execute something to be strongly related to correct expression of the principals in general i.e. someone who worked harder would usually achieve both. Again, glad my style doesn't involve splits or acrobatics.

[Golden Tiger]

Um, yeah . If you can't do something then you shouldn't be "promoted" to a level that required that something . This is why I'm thankful I don't train in a system with "levels" or "grades".

I wonder, should all tests be set up to where its 100% to pass?

Speaking from a teachers point of view, I can see some merit in comments made but in my opinion, a student should be promoted or failed based on what he/she has learned from the material. When I test a student, while I do look to see that the forms are done correctly, I am more interested in seeing that the student learned the concepts contained in said forms.

In our BB ranks, the student must learn 10 forms. Conservatively, each has about 50 moves so thats 500 moves they must learn. Say they can't do the splits (given example) but can do the rest of the moves with some level of proficiency. By your statement, even though they made a 99.5%, they should not be promoted.

[Toby]

Yeah, I dunno. I guess I can't really relate since lately and for the foreseeable future I spend 99% of my time on what you might call 5 moves. And recently I've spent a large portion of that 99% on 1 move. So I don't really have a basis for comparison. When you put it in the context of 500 moves, I guess 1 wrong move is less relevant.

However, the way your system works doesn't that mean a student will most likely go on to new stuff after that grading and therefore never learn the wrong move correctly? And is it possible that one day they'll be in a position of responsibility and be required to teach the moves that they don't train any more, couldn't do in the first place and most likely can't do? How does that work? I guess that's the good thing about teaching - it exposes deficiencies in both the student and the teacher and forces both to improve themselves.

It's another argument altogether whether the splits is a worthwhile move. JP's example of using it as an evasion techique made me smile. Wasn't that in some corny 80s movie? Props to those who can do the splits but it's not something I can do or aspire to do. Ouch, brings tears to my eyes.

[kwaichang]

The point is not whether you can do the splits but if it is in the form and you cant do it should you fail; not all moves have direct application but at times can be used to promote an idea or concept or physical ability. Drunken forms are full of such moves,what do they teach I trhink some moves promote strength some flexibility and some technique for fighting, But if you cant do one should you fail ?? Take weight lifting for example start with 10# 1 set of 15 reps when you can do it you go on and on if you cant say curl 30# should you stop trying to work out or keep trying ?? The forms that have the splits for ex. are used in my opinion to promote dynamic flexibility which from an athletic point of view , is used every time you kick KC

[peace&love]

Do you think James Brown used the splits in the 50s as a self defense application? :) I just can't see where it could be used for application in a real fight or attack. As far as flexibility in warm ups, I can see it as a positive thing to stretch the ligaments, etc. Otherwise, I believe it would be dangerous for the person doing it especially in a self defense situation.

[kwaichang]

The forms that have the splits for ex. are used in my opinion to promote dynamic flexibility which from an athletic point of view , is used every time you kick KC
The key is dynamic flexibility , and kicking is an application not all apps are blatant and not all moves clear KC

[kungfujunky]

However, the way your system works doesn't that mean a student will most likely go on to new stuff after that grading and therefore never learn the wrong move correctly? And is it possible that one day they'll be in a position of responsibility and be required to teach the moves that they don't train any more, couldn't do in the first place and most likely can't do? How does that work? I guess that's the good thing about teaching - it exposes deficiencies in both the student and the teacher and forces both to improve themselves.



that is not how our system works. We test over all of our material every time we test. unless there is an actual physical impairment (like funny shaped hips or arthritis or whatever) by the third time testing through most people can achieve, for example, the splits. or at least within 4-6 inches of the full splits which, in my opinion, works just as well.


a lot of people harp on us about our number of forms. In truth though we practice all of our material in order to advance. I have seen 3rd blacks fail a pretest over their lower belt material. They were awesome on their actual advancement material but could not make it through the lower level stuff. so they failed. We have to show good memory and (at each increasing level of advancement) we have to show a better and better understanding and application of the material we have already seen.

[Judge Pen]

Applications of splits:

I used that example because it was brought up earlier as one of the techniques that are sometimes in forms that not everyone can do. I can't do them. In all actuallity, I doubt there's really any solid applciation to the move, but the range of motion promotes better martial ability over-all so forcing one to aspire to a split is a great way to promote better martial ability. But since it was the technique used, I tried to think of common "applications" for them.

Actually, the application in Blood Sport always comes to mind also (leg being caught and pulled and the split allows one to maintain some control in a disadvantaged position).

But KC's point is true, many parts of forms are more for conditioning and physical training and do not have very practical applications in a direct fighting sense.

[Judge Pen]

I'll say this about SD too. You are never supposed to stop doing forms just because you have tested over them. When I tested for yellow, I could do all the techniques and I understood the basic applications, but it took me years to unlock some of the more subtleties to the most basic of forms. That only comes with time.

Which is why I understand the criticism as well. With so many forms, how is there time to really learn any of it.

[Toby]

that is not how our system works. We test over all of our material every time we test.

a lot of people harp on us about our number of forms. In truth though we practice all of our material in order to advance. I have seen 3rd blacks fail a pretest over their lower belt material. They were awesome on their actual advancement material but could not make it through the lower level stuff. so they failed. We have to show good memory and (at each increasing level of advancement) we have to show a better and better understanding and application of the material we have already seen.


I'll say this about SD too. You are never supposed to stop doing forms just because you have tested over them. When I tested for yellow, I could do all the techniques and I understood the basic applications, but it took me years to unlock some of the more subtleties to the most basic of forms. That only comes with time.I've misunderstood then. I always got the impression (from this thread and others) that once something was graded students had a tendency to move onto the next thing and never do it again.

[Judge Pen]

I've misunderstood then. I always got the impression (from this thread and others) that once something was graded students had a tendency to move onto the next thing and never do it again.

That depends on the student doesn't it. ;) Granted there are some forms that I do more than others and some forms (seminars etc.) that I don't find useful for me that I practice less. Usually, a structured class begins with basic warm ups and then a forms session (for cardio and for review) usually up through at least 3rd brown to 1st black. That way, at least once a week you review all of the foundational material in a class setting with the teacher watching.

Granted this can vary from school to school, but its been my experience in the classes I've participated in.

Right now, since I have not been able to participate in a structued class, I've culled down my forms review into the material up to first black and approx 12 other forms that I find useful and/or fun and which is a good cross section of the material of SD outside of the fundamentals.

[kwaichang]

When I am in full gear as far as training I have a day for beginning - 3rd brown and 4 of my upper level forms, a day for 2nd brown =1st BB and then more upper level for testing, as before, then 1st BB - 2nd BB and upper level , then 2nd -3rd BB etc. until I have reviewed all lower level and testing material completly 2 man stuff I do when I can. Specialty seminar forms I do once a week and weights 2-3 X per week and cross train with Aerobic training 3-4 days per week , at times I assign a number system to a form for example a basic form may be a 1 and a test form may be a 5 I group them so I perform 1-7 # 1 forms and 5 # 3 forms and 2 # 5 forms so as to not over train the knees or Low back. So as I say I review everything weekly or Bi-weekly and try not to do it too "weakly" haha. I do this so I do not injure myself and get good training effect , I have found more injuries have occured in MA due to decond for upper level more demanding forms and then attempting to perform them while not being prepared for it. With this training method I avoid injury. or try to
KC:cool:

[kungfujunky]

KC id love to see your breakdown of material you train....I have tried a few different training routines for the material but I havent found a groove yet.

I train all of the material up to 4th black and then I know all but 2 of the 5th black material so I have a lot to go over. Just havent found a good way to do it yet.

[kwaichang]

KFJ I typed for 20 minutes and lost what I had typed for you , I willl try again later KC

[kungfujunky]

oh man.....thanks for trying and **** that sucks haha

Whenever you can man. I do appreciate it.

Also for you oldtimers...I have kuas 1-4 of GMT doing classical...anyone have 5-8? They are my worst kuas and I would love to have the source training materials...

Also...when GMT demo'd Buddha Fist (in a gym a long time ago....dont know more than that) did he change it much? I see differences from what I was taught but am not sure if it is just because it was a demo or if that was the way he actually taught it.

better yet...if i can send my notes from the form to someone who learned it directly from GMT id appreciate a critique of what is different and how.

If anyone is willing to help out let me know!

[Golden Tiger]

Also for you oldtimers...I have kuas 1-4 of GMT doing classical...anyone have 5-8? They are my worst kuas and I would love to have the source training materials...

I might have them somewhere on tape. I will check first chance I get.


Also...when GMT demo'd Buddha Fist (in a gym a long time ago....dont know more than that) did he change it much? I see differences from what I was taught but am not sure if it is just because it was a demo or if that was the way he actually taught it.

better yet...if i can send my notes from the form to someone who learned it directly from GMT id appreciate a critique of what is different and how.

If it is the demo I am thinking of, the way it did it was the way he taught it. I too have notices little differences along the way but for the most part, most do it pretty close.

[kwaichang]

In a nut shell it goes like this Take the number of forms you want to train , give them a # system 1-5 , 1 easiest 5 hardest. For example 1st road of Hua may be a 4 on your scale and Sing Mien Tao Lien may be a 1 . OK if you want to work on 100 forms Pick the # of days you want to work on that form and how long a cycle is. For example If you want to do a 10 day cycle with 10 forms per day that is 100 forms, so on monday you will do a 1,2,5,1,1,3,5,2,2,3 and that is 10 forms, Notice that a 5 is repeated two times and not in succession. This prevents over training and allows effort with out too much fatigue. The #1 and 2 and 3 are progressive and contain different variables , such as A. Flexibility , B. strength ,
C. Speed , D. Quickness, and E. Stamina these are the compponents that allow you to rank a form. I also like to train on like forms such as yellow belt tiger and Black Tigers and Mantis etc. togethor. PM me if you need to know how I do it further as this way is very individualized and hard to do . This will allow for progression as you can repeat each form 2X without the fear of too much over training and strain. KC

[bodhi warrior]

In a nut shell it goes like this Take the number of forms you want to train , give them a # system 1-5 , 1 easiest 5 hardest. For example 1st road of Hua may be a 4 on your scale and Sing Mien Tao Lien may be a 1 . OK if you want to work on 100 forms Pick the # of days you want to work on that form and how long a cycle is. For example If you want to do a 10 day cycle with 10 forms per day that is 100 forms, so on monday you will do a 1,2,5,1,1,3,5,2,2,3 and that is 10 forms, Notice that a 5 is repeated two times and not in succession. This prevents over training and allows effort with out too much fatigue. The #1 and 2 and 3 are progressive and contain different variables , such as A. Flexibility , B. strength ,
C. Speed , D. Quickness, and E. Stamina these are the compponents that allow you to rank a form. I also like to train on like forms such as yellow belt tiger and Black Tigers and Mantis etc. togethor. PM me if you need to know how I do it further as this way is very individualized and hard to do . This will allow for progression as you can repeat each form 2X without the fear of too much over training and strain. KC


So what kind of power training do you do? I work my forms for anywhere between 30min and 1 hour, then do either bagwork, kettlebells and pullups, and I try to do what I consider the best of them all I-chin-ching everyday. The I-chin-ching are very demanding and difficult to do correctly.

[kwaichang]

I lift weights 2-3x per week , do Iron Bone 6 days per week , stance training 4 days per week and Aerobic 4 days per week. I Chi Ching daily at lunch .
The post illustrates a way to train with out over training and injuring one self. Havent yiou heard power isnt important HeHe KC

[Old Noob]

Hello all,

Been a while since I've been on. Work is a feast now, rather than a famine. I like the discussion of the physical abilities, or inabilities rather, as they relate to advancement. I agree that advancement shouldn't be an all-or-nothing proposition. If inability to do one particularly difficult move in a form could hinder advancement, then we'd also have to start demoting our masters as age renders them less physically capable. I don't know anyone who would suggest that their masters deserve such treatment due to physical limitation. Demonstration of solid conceptual grasp and physical ability to accomplish the concept seems to be the best standard by which to judge.

Speaking of judging, I'm still lowly and testing for my green this weekend. My stances are improving but I'm hoping that my inability to spend much time with my knees at 90-degree angles (being 6'5", 230lb, and having knee scopes take their toll) won't keep me from advancing.

Happy Holidays if I'm unable to visit again before they occur.

ON

[Judge Pen]

Hello all,

Been a while since I've been on. Work is a feast now, rather than a famine. ON

We want you on that wall. We need you on that wall.

[shen ku]

don't tell me we have ran out of things to talk about??

[shen ku]

we are so close,,,,,,,,

[taai gihk yahn]

we are so close,,,,,,,,

ok, SD is made up and Kwaichang is not a real PT;

that should get at least another 20 pages for now...

[shen ku]

but really,, does any have an idea what the other form at the spring seminar is going to be?

[bodhi warrior]

I was reading the book "The weapons and fighting arts of indonesia" when I found something very interesting.
This book was first published in 1972. On page 80 there is this particular paragraph that I really noticed. It says "Octogenarian Djie Siauw Foe of Semarang in central Java is a Kuntao master teacher, one of the last of the old breed."
Now Master Hiang and Master Sin both mention that a master named Je shiao fu was a teacher at the school where they studied. This may substantiate that alot of the core material is legit.

Comments please

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=shen ku;900716]but really,, does any have an idea what the other form at the spring seminar is going to be?[/QUOTE

It will be another weapons form....this time related to the Meteor Fist Yang side....no specifics yet....EML will know first...as soon as he announces it I will let everybody know.
BQ

[Baqualin]

I was reading the book "The weapons and fighting arts of indonesia" when I found something very interesting.
This book was first published in 1972. On page 80 there is this particular paragraph that I really noticed. It says "Octogenarian Djie Siauw Foe of Semarang in central Java is a Kuntao master teacher, one of the last of the old breed."
Now Master Hiang and Master Sin both mention that a master named Je shiao fu was a teacher at the school where they studied. This may substantiate that alot of the core material is legit.

Comments please

Mas Judt may have an insight to this...if he reads this post I'm sure he will respond.
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

Mas Judt may have an insight to this...if he reads this post I'm sure he will respond.
BQ

I hope so. Je Shiao Fu, according to Master Sin's DVD, is the originator of alot of the lower belt material.

[Judge Pen]

He is also referenced on Master Hsiang's site.

http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/history2.html

[shen ku]

any ideas on what the weapon will be? one we have already or something new?

[Baqualin]

any ideas on what the weapon will be? one we have already or something new?

If you mean new weapons form, yes....if you mean new weapon, I don't know yet.
BQ

[shen ku]

i meant new weapon,, i always enjoy something different,,, but something new with one i already have will be great also

[achien]

Chi Hsiao Foo / Je Siau Fu was a respectful Shandong kungfu teacher who was very prominent warrior in Indonesia. Some of his student are very well known in Jakarta or Bandung.
Chi Hsio Foo only accepted a little number of student who really taught directly by him. If GM Sin The was his student, i think the northern tang lang system was from him. I have heard that 10 teachers were the teacher of their school.

Best Regards,

Achien (Indonesia)

[Baqualin]

Chi Hsiao Foo / Je Siau Fu was a respectful Shandong kungfu teacher who was very prominent warrior in Indonesia. Some of his student are very well known in Jakarta or Bandung.
Chi Hsio Foo only accepted a little number of student who really taught directly by him. If GM Sin The was his student, i think the northern tang lang system was from him. I have heard that 10 teachers were the teacher of their school.

Best Regards,

Achien (Indonesia)

Welcome Achien
Thanks for the info....if you have any further information regarding the old school in Indo. & GM Ie I'm sure everyone on here would love to hear about it. Also do you know much about the internal systems taught in the area.
Best to You!!!
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

Chi Hsiao Foo / Je Siau Fu was a respectful Shandong kungfu teacher who was very prominent warrior in Indonesia. Some of his student are very well known in Jakarta or Bandung.
Chi Hsio Foo only accepted a little number of student who really taught directly by him. If GM Sin The was his student, i think the northern tang lang system was from him. I have heard that 10 teachers were the teacher of their school.

Best Regards,

Achien (Indonesia)

The only teachers I'm aware of are ie chang ming, jie shiao fu, liu su peng, te tju, qui kwong. The name of the school as I understand it was chung yen wu shu shao.
Any info you can provide on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

[peace&love]

I removed myself from SD around a month ago and wanted to make some observations to see if my experiences were the norm or unusual with SD schools. I do not want this to become a slamfest though because SD discussions unfortunately lead to that at times. I'm honestly curious. When I first started SD, there were three instructors. This is one of the reasons I chose SD at the time because my previous school closed down due to only having one teacher who had to leave. They were all different at SD, but all had valuable strengths. First one left due to family issues and outstanding weapons training was lost. Then another started to come and go and classes began to get cancelled and then organization and attitudes started to get bad from other students. It was a small school to begin with, but many student started to leave. The remaining head instructor started to show up late to class and leave me to work with new potential students. This was not a position I wanted to be placed in and I felt it inappropriate. These issues are probably just this particular schools situation.

I found that SD had a super heavy concentration on forms and even upper level sashes did not do well during sparring. Their sparring style seemed very TKD to me with a lot of side kicks and roundhouses. The head sifu also has a black belt in TKD and was training in a different system the same time he as he was teaching us. This could be the reason why this was the case with the students who had been there longer than me. Anyway, my previous experience in Southern styles gave me very good hand technique experiences, and I found that I could simply move past the kicks and go in for hand exchanges which always led to me doing quite well against my sparring partner. Unfortunately, I did not have too many sparring experience with SD because we spent so much time on forms. I found that the upper level sashes were not use to contact and would sort of "freak out" if there was contact. From other sources, I have been made aware that some SD schools do well with sparring, but I have only what was said and not seen.

Also, there is the lineage issue that comes up repeatedly. This was not a huge issue for me. Over time, and especially with the cultural revolution, accurate Chinese history in regards to the martial arts is a lot of legend even with historic figures like Wong Fei Hung. There is a lot of hearsay out there on a number of lineages. I have found that many SD practitioners take the lineage as absolute truth. Most of these folks, including one of the teachers I had, fell into this category. I have noticed that all the ones I have been aware of had direct contact with Sin The at some point in their training so he must be a very charasmatic individual I assume. On the other hand, there seems to be an equal number of SD practitioners who think that it is total bunk or only has a grain of truth and are okay with that. They seem to keep a low profile though.

Overall, the positives of my SD training was the internal arts and the I Chings as well as the conditioning. Also, the weapons forms were rewarding and challeging. On the negative side, I found the open had forms were not that challenging and the sparring skills of most SD practitioners I saw and sparred against to be lacking.

Once again, please fellow forum members, don't make this a slamfest. I just want to hear about SD in terms of what people have actually experienced themselves, and have not heard from others. As I mentioned before, I am curious if my experiences with SD are isolated with a particular school or are widespread throughout the organization. Thanks to all for your time.

[Lamassu]

I found that SD had a super heavy concentration on forms and even upper level sashes did not do well during sparring. Their sparring style seemed very TKD to me with a lot of side kicks and roundhouses.

I left SD almost 4 years ago, and looking back, I also noticed the focus on forms, but considering the amount being taught that's to be expected. I will say that 900 (or however many), is too many, at least for me. I still practice about 10 of the thirty some odd forms I was taught, and only those that are particularly appealing to me and practical. A lot of the forms are uber simple and not really worth learning because the lessons hidden are also in other forms taught later. I would often get frustrated doing a form over and over again at the kwoon and just think to myself "Hell I could be drilling these forms at home, why did I come here?" The sparring is a lot like TKD, and I think the easiest way to remedy that is if SD adopted San Shou. Teach the students some chinese boxing which will help them link the theory of the form with the practical application of sparring. As it is, 4 or 5 different techniques defined in forms translate to the one same thing on the matt: sidekick.


Also, there is the lineage issue that comes up repeatedly. This was not a huge issue for me. Over time, and especially with the cultural revolution, accurate Chinese history in regards to the martial arts is a lot of legend even with historic figures like Wong Fei Hung. There is a lot of hearsay out there on a number of lineages. I have found that many SD practitioners take the lineage as absolute truth. Most of these folks, including one of the teachers I had, fell into this category. I have noticed that all the ones I have been aware of had direct contact with Sin The at some point in their training so he must be a very charasmatic individual I assume. On the other hand, there seems to be an equal number of SD practitioners who think that it is total bunk or only has a grain of truth and are okay with that. They seem to keep a low profile though.

I never really was all that concerned about the lineage, I treated SD the same way I treated Texas State: a place to learn. It's history is irrelevant to me.


Overall, the positives of my SD training was the internal arts and the I Chings as well as the conditioning. Also, the weapons forms were rewarding and challeging. On the negative side, I found the open had forms were not that challenging and the sparring skills of most SD practitioners I saw and sparred against to be lacking.

SD definetly gave me an appreciation for the internal arts and Chi Kung, I still practice all the Tai Chi and Pakua that I learned before I moved, and I get a lot of fulfillment and satisfaction from keeping them fresh.

The kwoons I attended in North Austin and in San Marcos, TX were very professional, and the instructors were top notch that really gave a d@mn about the development of their students as well as the preservation of their art. There are elements that I have issues with, but no kwoon is perfect and you have to be able to adapt yourself, in order to learn. Personally, I always hated putting on the gi, and the drills were too karate like. Overall, I enjoyed my time with SD, but yeah you gotta take certain things with a grain of salt like most kwoons here in the U.S. Just my opinion.

[kwaichang]

Some use lineage as a place to make a point while what we learn is more important than who taught it. KC

[Baqualin]

I removed myself from SD around a month ago and wanted to make some observations to see if my experiences were the norm or unusual with SD schools. I do not want this to become a slamfest though because SD discussions unfortunately lead to that at times. I'm honestly curious. When I first started SD, there were three instructors. This is one of the reasons I chose SD at the time because my previous school closed down due to only having one teacher who had to leave. They were all different at SD, but all had valuable strengths. First one left due to family issues and outstanding weapons training was lost. Then another started to come and go and classes began to get cancelled and then organization and attitudes started to get bad from other students. It was a small school to begin with, but many student started to leave. The remaining head instructor started to show up late to class and leave me to work with new potential students. This was not a position I wanted to be placed in and I felt it inappropriate. These issues are probably just this particular schools situation.

I found that SD had a super heavy concentration on forms and even upper level sashes did not do well during sparring. Their sparring style seemed very TKD to me with a lot of side kicks and roundhouses. The head sifu also has a black belt in TKD and was training in a different system the same time he as he was teaching us. This could be the reason why this was the case with the students who had been there longer than me. Anyway, my previous experience in Southern styles gave me very good hand technique experiences, and I found that I could simply move past the kicks and go in for hand exchanges which always led to me doing quite well against my sparring partner. Unfortunately, I did not have too many sparring experience with SD because we spent so much time on forms. I found that the upper level sashes were not use to contact and would sort of "freak out" if there was contact. From other sources, I have been made aware that some SD schools do well with sparring, but I have only what was said and not seen.

Also, there is the lineage issue that comes up repeatedly. This was not a huge issue for me. Over time, and especially with the cultural revolution, accurate Chinese history in regards to the martial arts is a lot of legend even with historic figures like Wong Fei Hung. There is a lot of hearsay out there on a number of lineages. I have found that many SD practitioners take the lineage as absolute truth. Most of these folks, including one of the teachers I had, fell into this category. I have noticed that all the ones I have been aware of had direct contact with Sin The at some point in their training so he must be a very charasmatic individual I assume. On the other hand, there seems to be an equal number of SD practitioners who think that it is total bunk or only has a grain of truth and are okay with that. They seem to keep a low profile though.

Overall, the positives of my SD training was the internal arts and the I Chings as well as the conditioning. Also, the weapons forms were rewarding and challeging. On the negative side, I found the open had forms were not that challenging and the sparring skills of most SD practitioners I saw and sparred against to be lacking.

Once again, please fellow forum members, don't make this a slamfest. I just want to hear about SD in terms of what people have actually experienced themselves, and have not heard from others. As I mentioned before, I am curious if my experiences with SD are isolated with a particular school or are widespread throughout the organization. Thanks to all for your time.

Hey P&L,
Every school is different......there are no SD franchises, so not alot of oversite among the schools...they do pretty much their own thing and either make it or flop. I'm not saying this is a good thing, just the way it is.
It's hard for me to comment since I'm with GMS's original school and things are different here....plus I only study Internal now......I can say no one here is afraid of contact....I've experienced quite a few bruised ribs from the upper levels in sparring classes and the black belt classes generally end with everybody against everbody for a few minutes, just to knock the dust off. I've seen the same in alot of the other Ky schools and some of M. Mullins schools also. Your always limited by your teachers ability and what he actually knows.
BQ

[achien]

achien

Do you know of any members of the White Lotus Society in Bandung?
or of a Martial Arts Instructor there by the name of Tjie Tiong?

Hi,

Do you mean White Lotus Wushu School that leaded by Yan De Xiu (Bpk. Tatang Budi Suryana) at Bandung???
Do you mean Lim Djie Tiong who is a student of Chi Hsiao Foo???

I know both of them eventhough i never meet them, their student is my friend. Btw, i don't want to get involved with any of shaolin do's matters because i am not a student of sd and i think i don't have any rights to decide what is right and wrong in SD (i really respect all of practicioners in SD and i think a debates is normal in kungfu). I know that GM Liu Su Peng is my elder master, and i am actually have a relation with SD in the lineage.

Hopefully i can give the information.


Thank you

Best Regards,

Achien

[achien]

The only teachers I'm aware of are ie chang ming, jie shiao fu, liu su peng, te tju, qui kwong. The name of the school as I understand it was chung yen wu shu shao.
Any info you can provide on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

I know all of them. If you want to know more about them, please email me directly oke????

te tju???i think the right name is Tad Dju, he was passed away in 2003 because of old sickness.

[achien]

Welcome Achien
Thanks for the info....if you have any further information regarding the old school in Indo. & GM Ie I'm sure everyone on here would love to hear about it. Also do you know much about the internal systems taught in the area.
Best to You!!!
BQ

Ba qua chang, hsing yi, and tai chi were taught in the Bandung Area in some of chinese organization at Bandung. For Shaolin Do practicioners, i think your curriculum is well comprehensive and don't be doubt because doubtfull just wasting a time and lead to no where. Have a nice practice oke!!!??

Merry Christmas 2008 for all of you,

Warmly regards,

Achien

[bodhi warrior]

I know all of them. If you want to know more about them, please email me directly oke????

te tju???i think the right name is Tad Dju, he was passed away in 2003 because of old sickness.

I sent you a private message.

[Baqualin]

Ba qua chang, hsing yi, and tai chi were taught in the Bandung Area in some of chinese organization at Bandung. For Shaolin Do practicioners, i think your curriculum is well comprehensive and don't be doubt because doubtfull just wasting a time and lead to no where. Have a nice practice oke!!!??

Merry Christmas 2008 for all of you,

Warmly regards,

Achien

Hey Achien,
35 years in SD...I'm not doubtful.....just nice to converse with someone from the area that our art came from and is somewhat familiar with people from our lineage. I ask about the internal because that's what interest me the most....just curious as to what's taught there now.
Thanks Again & a Very Merry Christmas to you & your Family,
BQ

[brucereiter]

http://www.obsidianportal.com/character/5130

came across this link, anyone know anything about it?

[Baqualin]

http://www.obsidianportal.com/character/5130

came across this link, anyone know anything about it?

Hey Bruce,
Hope you had a great Christmas!!!! I don't know anything about this, but it looks like some kind of computer role playing games that anyone can submit....I'm going to show this to a select few and see if anyone knows....I'll send it to GMS and see what he says.
BQ

[TrollTerminator]

Where did MKrii go:confused:

[MasterKiller]

Where did MKrii go:confused:

Banned for racist language.

[brucereiter]

Hey Bruce,
Hope you had a great Christmas!!!!

merry christmas and best wishes for the new year to all of my martial arts brothers and sisters! looking forward to a great 2009! many things to learn!

[shen ku]

Happy new year everyone!!!

[Judge Pen]

Happy new year everyone!!!

akemashta omedeto!

[shen ku]

anyone heard what the new form GMS is going to teach yet

[shen ku]

surly its not going to die now???

[Judge Pen]

This thread won't die. It may be dormant for a while, but it always pops back up.

[kwaichang]

Yeah its real and badder than ever so lets all get over it. Happy New Year KC