Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[goju]

I know Bigfoot. In fact, I trained with him for several hundred years.

- yeti
yeah we know him too he always used to come down from the woods at the burger king we work at an clog up the mens toilet me and wookie spepnt hours trying to unclog the lochness monster he left in there

[goju]

No. I'm 100% Awesome.

i beleive the correct wao of saying it is boreder

[Shaolin Wookie]

yeah but then you come home from work with a sore mouth and a sore a nus who wants that lol

Don't worry, I'm sure your boyfriend will still love you.

[goju]

what is this thread about now lol

[Shaolin Wookie]

i beleive the correct wao of saying it is boreder

Look at the Rederob go. He's learning. He's not hopeless. But by "Wao" I hope you meant either "Wow" or "tao". See, tao means way--just like "do."

But if I had said "borreder" everyone would have been like...hey, look at what that dude just wrote....wow!"

Or maybe you meant it was like a cool "tao" to say what I said, and you knew, even beforehand, people would be like "wow!"

Yea. It's totally wao. Totally.

[goju]

Look at the Rederob go. He's learning. He's not hopeless. But by "Wao" I hope you meant either "Wow" or "tao". See, tao means way--just like "do."

But if I had said "borreder" everyone would have been like...hey, look at what that dude just wrote....wow!"

Or maybe you meant it was like a cool "tao" to say what I said, and you knew, even beforehand, people would be like "wow!"

Yea. It's totally wao. Totally.
and i thought my neighbours smoked alot of pot lol

[One student]

This is my take on some of the more common criticisms of SD. Just my (somewhat reasoned) opinion, can never be proved or disproved, and is not an infallible theory. And it requires some practical consideration of the reality at the time. I've thought about writing a book, but it would put people to sleep. Here is a too-long summary.

GGM ICM came from China, and other places. He learned from others. As far as I can tell and see, almost everyone who trains that long, that hard, that much, puts their own spin on the material, and rightfully so. I suspect if it were possible to go back to see what the first tai chi form, or pa kua, or any other material, looked like, and compare it to what it looked like after it passes through X hands to get to now, no one would recognize it. So no one can complain or assign any weight to the lack of resemblance of GGM ICM's material to any other ancient Temple material or that taught by others today, who learned it on a different path. ICM's and GMT's came through a different path to today than the current Temple material did, as did others who are on a different path.

GGM Su Kong. Names, faces, unexplained photos and clothing. How many stories of Western legends and figures have tall tales attached? When people used to criticize Hong Kong kung fu movies as "unbelievable" that people can do that stuff, I reminded them, those movies are sometimes about legends, and their tradional heroes. How is pulling a sword and killing a dozen armed soldiers, different than Clint Eastwood pulling his six-shooter and fanning to death six armed gunfighters before they can even draw? OK, that is fantasy, to some extent. How many stories have we been told about the old West figures, who were real people, the truth of which is unknowable? Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, outlaws, heroes, etc. How many historical photos are there of persons whose details are not known? But to say he did not exist because his name is not amongst millions of Chinese, hundreds or more non-documented martial artists, during a time of nearly non-existent record keeping, or because of undatable photos or a style of clothing or other people in other places in other times that look like him -- that is incredible.

When GMT was training, he was in Indonesia. There was at least SOME dislike for things Chinese, which is not disputed anywhere, although the degree of it is. If I were going to teach something where most other people don't like it and might bother me or my family about it, I would probably also alter it at least some, even after my own personal spin was put on it.

Why not teach it only in secret, and stay with exactly and purely the way it was taught to him? See below, but lets face it: most accomplished experts who teach, and are worth being taught by, do it for a living. Keeping it a secret is not exactly conducive to making a living by teaching. So a balance of openness, but not offending, must be struck.

As for including other elements into it, including Japanese words, or "ippon kumite" methods, if I take my martial arts seriously, and see something someone else does that is good, and say, "I'm not going to do that, that is not traditional [whatever I am doing]," that stubborn refusal to learn and adapt would be stupid. So, unless "what I was taught is perfect and has no room for improvement or consideration of any adjustment ever for any reason," failure to evolve is dumb. Anyone with a history like ICM or GMT would be smart enough to know that, and if he sees a training method, like one step sparring, that is good, he would be dumb to disregard it just because it is not what he was taught or the way he was taught it, or even more archaic, not the way HIS teacher was taught it. Is not the history of even the Temples, evolving, adapting, changing, and improving, from Damo or whatever, to the end?

And is there not a history of two-man fighting sets in almost all TCMA's systems? What do you think "ippon kumite" is, other than one step at a time, instead of a series of steps. Its just a simplified, "elementary" start for a more complex concept. Call me naive, but I think it is a good thing that I was able to do "one step" sparring, one step at a time, before I did a long form two-man set, that might run 30+ steps in sequence. If that is bad because it is not TCMA, so what.

I can't think of any accomplished martial arts student or teacher I know, or who posts here for that matter, that has not at one time branched off and experienced more than one style, something else, read someone else's texts, etc., and incorporated what he/she liked and benefitted from, into his/her own practice, when it is good to do so. Why then is so much criticism of SD because its progenitors have done so and made it part of what they pass on to their own students? If I can be taught by someone who learns and adapts, or by one who knows nothing other than one way and cannot learn or adapt, that choice is easy -- unless all I want is the historical lessons.

TO BE CONTINUED

[Shaolin Wookie]

what is this thread about now lol

This thread is about you now. You're the most important person in the world to us right now. We're just waiting for you to open up to us.


Consider this your Intervention.

BTW, ignore that guy with the stungun behind you and his buddy with the straightjacket. The stungun is really a "hotwired stick of emotional support", and the jacket represents "emotional security with no strings attached."

We are all your friends. Nobody is here to hurt you.


Quick!!! GEt him!

[goju]

dude get with the program where on aabout burger king and prostituiton and how japanese people came from china and how everything is borreder but only if you truly beleive it

[Yao Sing]

Wao is my little brother. Stop talking crap about him.

[One student]

Uniforms: If you are not a monk living in a temple, wearing that clothing would be inappropriate, maybe even disrepectful, and definitely insincere. Look at the old photos of traditional kung fu practitioners in the East -- they don't wear what we now call "kung fu uniforms." They wear whatever they have on that is comfortable. And most who practice CMA agree that although so-called "kung fu uniforms" look really cool and make those students feel like "kung fu" practioners, they are not rugged, and are not practical, and didn't they come more from movies than real martial arts schools anyway? Didn't many schools, outside of the temples, that wanted a uniform, just wear loose pants, and a t-shirt, and something tied around the waist? Traditional gi's are rugged, and are practical. Why do some MMA's still wear them, even in the ring? I saw a match recently where a tradionalist and former champion and current contender (non-UFC) wore a gi in a ring match, and used the sleeve and collar to choke out the opponent. It improves grip and friction. If we were to line up all the possible choices for a uniform for a school where discipline and practicality and uniformity was important, which one would be anyone's first choice, if indeed fighting, not appearance, were important? But those who want to criticize GGM ICM, or later GMT, for making that choice, although doing so creates an appearnce of modern notions of non-TCMA, and at the same time wants to discredit the combative benefits and claims of SD, is hypocritical.

Japanese rankings? Isn't that a minor adaptation of the most meaningless, but also most obvious, way to avoid looking like a pure Chinese system, if one was wanting to avoid that pure appearance? And isn't that also a common factor in schools that were run to be business and support the instructor? Isn't that also a convenient, even if not tradional Chinese kung fu, way of keeping track of a student's progress, and also to set future goals? When I tested, I did so for one reason: not to have another stripe on my belt, but to force myself to progress to that goal: being confident enough in that material to perform it under pressure, in front of others who probably knew it better than I did, and not just to have them say it was okay, but to know myself that it is up to my standards.

Claiming some of the material is "made up" by GMT, or even GGM ICM. If one wants a historical martial art that has not changed ever since it was created, one also needs a time machine. There is no such thing today. Isn't TKD a "creation" to serve the popular needs, derived from tang soo do and/or moo duk kwan? Wasn't judo invented as a "gentler way" from the more brutal ju jitsu? We all know how jeet kune do came about -- purely "made up." Is all that therefore illegitimate? Wasn't every style today "made up" from something else? How many traditional Japanese Karate styles were just "made up" or derived from something else -- including Goju-ryu? I would hope my teacher is astute enough to be able to develop new techniques and methods, including forms, to meet my needs, and if I have a teacher that I don't think is good enough to do that -- I need a new teacher.

And as for thinking GMT must be making most of it up because he uses notes or books to prepare for class, or has deviations from one class to the next. First, I recall I have in the past "made up" forms for myself. I couldn't remember them at all not long after, unless I practiced nothing but that, unlike the forms I was trained and taught by others, which if I've forgotten, I can go back and look at notes, or keep working at, they do come back to me. Recently with such help, I have recovered material I first learned decades ago, and can now do like it was yesterday (mentally at least). I teach an evening class (nothing to do with martial arts) at a local branch of a university, have been since 1987, and on a subject that I make a living doing every day. I still get my lecture notes, tests, other teaching material out, every time I teach every session of the ten-week class, and still have variations on how I teach it from sesson to session. So what?

900 forms. I think the number comes from the list -- that I hear other schools have plagiarized for their websites -- of systems, and the forms per system (18 broadswords, 7 of this, 12 of that -- and add them all up). 108 are the short forms. Many are VERY short. Doesn't for example the five element fists, 12 animals, linking set, and two man set, of Hsing-Ie count as 19 of them? Many are not so short, but most people who criticize based only on the number assume it is literally 900 long form sets, and that is not true.

It is not outside the realm of possibility that GMT focused on his specialty (his "major"), and at the same time was taught other forms. I've learned the basic movements of a new form in 30 minutes, and then go on to practice and refine it according to my way. He was with GGM ICM for hours per day, almost every day, for many years. He probably was taught by every one of the Masters at that school. He could learn and memorize a form, work on it, and go to another one, maybe not go back to the old ones again, maybe yes. He is not a dummy. He has a degree in engineering, which he achieved after first coming to a foreign country, no easy feat. He is known to be fluent in several languages. He has a black belt in judo. Why couldn't he learn more than I can learn -- or more than "you" think you could accomplish? If he was no better than me, why do I want him to teach me? I've told critics more than once, once you think you are good enought to critique your own teacher, you need a new teacher.

In my career I know more about the stuff I do most and more often, but can still do the stuff I do less regularly. I might know more about the stuff I've done more than a lot of people, and less about the stuff others do more than I do, but I still know it and can pass it on to others. And they might get better at it than I ever was. GOOD. That is what a teacher hopes will happen.

TO BE CONTINUED

[Shaolin Wookie]

dude get with the program where on aabout burger king and prostituiton and how japanese people came from china and how everything is borreder but only if you truly beleive it

You're wrong. It's only "boreder" if you truly Translate it.

[goju]

you dotn want to test me fellas
im like a bipolar squirrel on viagra when i get backed into a corner and i dont want to be


word to the wise

i dont mess...

[goju]

You're wrong. It's only "boreder" if you truly Translate it.
buts its onlt translate it if your only a marsupial


now whos wrong

[One student]

Using the word "karate" in the school description. Place yourself coming to the U.S. in the early to mid 60's. Don't tell me anyone outside of Asia knew what "kung fu" was. GMT was not even taught in a traditonal Chinese martial arts setting in China, no wonder he wasn't tied up with looking like a TCMA establishment. I recall the scene in "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story" of the "traditional" Chinese masters who forbid Bruce Lee from teaching Westerners. That is representative of a CMA hierarchy that GMT was not part of, having learned and trained "in exile" so to speak, with other "exiles" removed from those trappings and expectations.

Many people were starting to know what "karate" -- a very generic term --was about. They knew it to mean, "some kind of Asian" -- or the more pejoriative "Oriental" -- "fighting styles." What once was called "Chinese boxing." If one is going to start a school and make a living, call it something someone will recognize. If as people have said, that an attempt was made to make people think it was Temple Shaolin -- why do that, in the early 60's? Who in the early to mid 60's in the U.S. -- much less in Central Ky. -- would even know what that was? And IF he were wanting to exploit Shaolin, then THE WAY to do it would be to call it that right from the start. But it wasn't purely traditional Shaolin, in the Temple sense, and so it wasn't called that. It was called what it could be generically described as in the 60's using terms we could understand -- "karate," or Asian martial arts (synonymous at the time), from a Shaolin perspective and influence. The "Shaolin Way," following on other "Do" terminology more familiar. I doubt "kung fu" was even used at all at the time, but I could be wrong. Why doesn't that make sense? What else should a new venture in Central Kentucky in the 60's have been called,that would have made more sense?

SD teaches material also from outside the Temple. Wasn't historically the various temples also interested in learning about outside stlyes and practices? If a Shaolin priest were out and saw someone practicing something that was new, should they ignore it with their nose in the air -- "thats not from our temple therefore it can't be any good" -- or with an open mind consider it and learn from it. If GGM ICM, or GMT, actually learned something good, like Hsing Ie, Pa Kua, Tai Chi, Northern this or Southern that, and pass it on within their teachings, why is that bad?

If in fact I were to advertise, "I teach nothing but pure, unadulterated, untouched, INSERT WHATEVER," and then throw something completely different and unrelated, that is one thing. That is not the case, except I think from the unfortunate few who themselves don't understand the connection between "Shaolin" and material from outside the Temple per se, and put that misunderstanding in writing. People who have posted here, have "kung fu" schools, and also do cardio kickboxing, tai chi, yoga, some MMA, etc. So what? I can go to a steakhouse and my kids can get hamburgers at the same time.

And I suspect GMT does not personally draft the material printed in his name, and maybe even doesn't review texts others print in his name. He's got other things to do. Too bad, and I wish others would be more careful in passing off their words as his. But I remember during a sparring class taught by GMT's brother, practicing for an upcoming tournament, we spent some time on ground fighting. That week later in class, elsewhere, my teacher asked me to take some of the younger students aside who were interested in participating in the tournament, and have some sparring practice. I did so, and also had them do some of the ground fighting as I did the week before. My teacher became somewhat upset, not wanting that, thinking it was too soon for those younger students to worry about that, and just wanted them drilled on stand up. I was teaching in his name, while he did something else with some other students, and although I had all good intentions, but misunderstanding what he wanted. My bad, not his.

SD material doesn't "look like" other TCMA. I've trained in SD since the mid 70's. I've also trained in other stuff, and more than one other TCMA (very briefly in eagle claw, non-SD Shaolin Leaopard, Hung Gar), and at other schools. I've searched the internet for other persons', non-SD, Pa Kua, Hsing Ie, tai chi, etc. I've read other teacher's books. I've seen movies. I've visited other kung fu, TKD, and Karate schools. There are differences, but I have also been amazed at some of the similarity. I've seen other material that is amazingly similar, and in details as well. I've seen similar titles, similar terminology, even similar texts. I've also seen dissimilar. Find me anything developed on different paths that is identical. It doesn't exist. Yet when something similar does come up, it must have been copied by SD - not the other way around. When something is not the same, it proves its made up.

And to some extent, there are different ways to get to the same place, but there might also be one BEST way to, for example, throw a straight punch, place a front kick, attack with a straight sword. It doesn't bother me that SD might want to do it this way, even in the context of Tiger, Mantis, or whatever, even if someone who claims pure Tiger or Mantis might do it another way, but also teach how to do it in other ways. To each his own. How do you know what is good for you, if you are only exposed to one thing?

But I've been to a very traditional non-SD CMA school. I spent a year at a Tien Shien Pai school, visited by the proclaimed 34th generation GM, or whatever, direct lineage to this and that, and the methods and material and postures and mechanics, etc., were just not that materially different from SD. The introductory Hsing Ie - very similar. Chi kung training: very similar. Basic empty hand forms: very similar. Two man sets, very similar. I spent a year there, and in addition to empty hand forms also did short stick, broadsword, introductory chi kung/breathing meditation, very similar curriculum as SD.

The portrayals of SD material that is most criticized, and more defective, is the practitioner, not the material. That is also bad on the practitioner, not GMT. What is he supposed to do, when something he has taught out is messed up, misrepresented, or just badly done by someone. Tell them to stop practicing? Tell them to forget they know him? Forget they learned any of it? Forbid them to demo it, unless they pass a certain grade? Does anyone think that is possible, much less practical.

TO BE CONTINUED

[goju]

oh and to the guy who did the eassy kung fu masters didnt teach for aliving or advertise for that matter in fact because of the anti chinese hate in indonesia they would have had to teach secretly thus making the use ofr all the names etc etc that are japanese useless


god im so boredering niging right now

[Shaolin Wookie]

i dont mess...

But you wear rubber pants, right?

We don't judge. I promise. We're here for your support. We're like your own emotional rubber pants.

[One student]

Here's an idea: Lets say someone who thinks they know about martial arts, maybe they do, maybe they don't (maybe they are really good at dancing or posing for pictures), goes to a school for awhile, and thinks the teachers there are no good and he/she can beat up all their black belts. Then he starts telling others how bad that entire style is, and anyone who has anything to do with it, and "spits" on it all. Shouldn't we go back to every martial arts instructor that person has ever had, and "spit" on him/her, and their entire school and every student they have ever had, because it is obviously that instructor's fault for turning out, and permitting to exist, any student who claims to know so much from them, but presents themself so arrogantly, so disrespectfully, and, as they said in "Shogun," "with the manners of a pig." That instructor shoud be ashamed for being associated with one who shows so little honor and respect, for anyone, deserving or not. That instructor obviously tolerates disrespect, encourages the insulting tongue, invites the provoking blow, and has no more of a concept of bushido, or honor and respect in general, than any clown off the street.

All I know, is others here have spoken highly of many of you, such as YS, MK, JP, GT, BQ, KC, TTM, and others whose monikers escape me. I don't know any of you, but you have for the most part, with few isolated exceptions, conducted yourselves with dignity and honor, and have earned the respect of others here and elsewhere. That is good enough for me. On the other hand, there are others that no one, other than himself, speaks highly of, and his words speak for themselves. That says something, too.

I recently told a good freind, a good martial artist that I have learned much from, but who was never interested in testing past 1st black -- but knows more from independent study and research than many who "outrank" him -- my take on teaching stuff to people who don't appreciate it and can't do it. It is better to teach the material to many, knowing that few will take it to heart, than to not teach it at all. The seed may indeed fall on barren minds, but also some will bear fruit.

And in a letter of mine that was published in Kung Fu Magazine in the early 80's, I also said, in response to a critic of SD (it goes back that far and more), get over this stuff.If you go to a school you are not happy with, by all means find another one. It is a style, many like it and learn from it and benefit from it, and it has its basis in stuff that works. Many don't, or don't understand, or don't want to. Many just feed themselves by criticizing others. It is easier to criticize than to hold one's tongue, to retain an open mind, to just "live and let live." How about just keep practicing, and keep learning, do more asking questions than giving answers no one has asked for; and just be quiet about what others do?

I feel much better now that I got this off my chest. LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AND COULD BE ENTIRELY WRONG. I SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND NOT FOR GMT, ANY OF HIS INSTRUCTORS OR STUDENTS OR SCHOOLS OR MASTERS.

[Shaolin Wookie]

oh and to the guy who did the eassy kung fu masters didnt teach for aliving or advertise for that matter in fact because of the anti chinese hate in indonesia they would have had to teach secretly thus making the use ofr all the names etc etc that are japanese useless


I agree 100%.


*whisper to the rest of the SD forum* Dude, did you understand that? Me neither....oh well. Just nod your head. It's not cool to laugh at REderobs.*

[goju]

id rather see you guys as my emotional jock strap here to hoist my balls high

[goju]

see even wookie admits it your master has spoken sd students

oh and explain how its possible to know nine hundred forms?

[Shaolin Wookie]

id rather see you guys as my emotional jock strap here to hoist my balls high

If it helps you to think of the raping you'll get in the mental ward from the guards as "an emotional jock strap there to hoist your balls high," that's cool. Remember....go to your happy place.

But unfortunately, we won't be going with you. You won't see us again until you get out.

[goju]

and remember people even a short form has to be reviewd over and over and over again just because its easy dosnt mean youll be able to learn another one from your master
lOok at the sanchin form in karate for example super easy buT they had you work on it for years until you were taught ANYTHING ELSE

108 short forms would still take a gigantic time to learn not to mentionMASTER remember theres a difference between the two

and thats 108 what about the rest of the forms?

[goju]

If it helps you to think of the raping you'll get in the mental ward from the guards as "an emotional jock strap there to hoist your balls high," that's cool. Remember....go to your happy place.

But unfortunately, we won't be going with you. You won't see us again until you get out.

but at least ill have some cool tatoos and a rock hard body from the weight room

[goju]

Wao is my little brother. Stop talking crap about him.

uh oh here that wookie hes steppin to you

you just going to sit there like france and take it?

[Shaolin Wookie]

uh oh here that wookie hes steppin to you

you just going to sit there like france and take it?

Sorry, I was taking a crap. What did you say?

Oh. France...:rolleyes: ****ed French-fry eating ingrates.

I hate France. They should be in Iraq right now. Period. It's just the right thing to do, and we had all the right Intelligence behind our dubious suspicions.

Look at the wonders it's done for us. But then, I think we should kill everything and spare nothing. It's the Shaolin way.

[goju]

i know i hate the french so much too
i think the united forces should just pul out of iraq and bomb france
kill them all except sophie merceau she will be my second wife lol

god that was along crap you need some more fiber in your diet

[Baqualin]

Here's an idea: Lets say someone who thinks they know about martial arts, maybe they do, maybe they don't (maybe they are really good at dancing or posing for pictures), goes to a school for awhile, and thinks the teachers there are no good and he/she can beat up all their black belts. Then he starts telling others how bad that entire style is, and anyone who has anything to do with it, and "spits" on it all. Shouldn't we go back to every martial arts instructor that person has ever had, and "spit" on him/her, and their entire school and every student they have ever had, because it is obviously that instructor's fault for turning out, and permitting to exist, any student who claims to know so much from them, but presents themself so arrogantly, so disrespectfully, and, as they said in "Shogun," "with the manners of a pig." That instructor shoud be ashamed for being associated with one who shows so little honor and respect, for anyone, deserving or not. That instructor obviously tolerates disrespect, encourages the insulting tongue, invites the provoking blow, and has no more of a concept of bushido, or honor and respect in general, than any clown off the street.

All I know, is others here have spoken highly of many of you, such as YS, MK, JP, GT, BQ, KC, TTM, and others whose monikers escape me. I don't know any of you, but you have for the most part, with few isolated exceptions, conducted yourselves with dignity and honor, and have earned the respect of others here and elsewhere. That is good enough for me. On the other hand, there are others that no one, other than himself, speaks highly of, and his words speak for themselves. That says something, too.

I recently told a good freind, a good martial artist that I have learned much from, but who was never interested in testing past 1st black -- but knows more from independent study and research than many who "outrank" him -- my take on teaching stuff to people who don't appreciate it and can't do it. It is better to teach the material to many, knowing that few will take it to heart, than to not teach it at all. The seed may indeed fall on barren minds, but also some will bear fruit.

And in a letter of mine that was published in Kung Fu Magazine in the early 80's, I also said, in response to a critic of SD (it goes back that far and more), get over this stuff.If you go to a school you are not happy with, by all means find another one. It is a style, many like it and learn from it and benefit from it, and it has its basis in stuff that works. Many don't, or don't understand, or don't want to. Many just feed themselves by criticizing others. It is easier to criticize than to hold one's tongue, to retain an open mind, to just "live and let live." How about just keep practicing, and keep learning, do more asking questions than giving answers no one has asked for; and just be quiet about what others do?

I feel much better now that I got this off my chest. LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AND COULD BE ENTIRELY WRONG. I SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND NOT FOR GMT, ANY OF HIS INSTRUCTORS OR STUDENTS OR SCHOOLS OR MASTERS.

Very well said (I don't think anyones listening...to busy p!ssing:))....you must have started around the same time as I did......remember Buell armory
BQ

[OldandUsed]

I agree, well written. Follows along very much as i recall it and see it.

[Tensei85]

I dont know you have to admit after massive hours and a lot of general boredom Goju starts to wear on you. maybe we'll get used to him besides he's just a little unique, after all we accepted Shaolin Wookie even though at the time he wasnt even house broke. He's doing a lot better now though he only has an accident once in a while : )~ j/k

p.s. Shaolin Wookie is the man! or should I say Wookie.

[Judge Pen]

One Student, Thank you for your contribution to the thread. Very well said.

[yeti]

One Student, Thank you for your contribution to the thread. Very well said.

I second this, well done. How long did all that take you?

[goju]

god could you guys be up wookies a nus any more right now?

[Tensei85]

Goju It's better than receiving! But your probably used to it by now, just playing.

[One student]

I second this, well done. How long did all that take you?

Thank you for reading my "manifesto" -- I suspected most people would look how long it was, and, like higher end martial arts, skip it and go back to the ****ing on each other and the snappy one liners and comebacks.

The philisophical answer to "how long did it take," would be: Over 30 years -- how long its been since I started in any form of martial arts. I could also say, several months, how long its been since I've been reading this thread (I did go back to the beginning), sometimes shocked by what persons who profess to be martial artists are willing to say to and about other people, even their own teachers, much less other's teachers, much less people they have never met.

And as I've heard the criticisms, I've also considered potential answers, and weighed them for awhile. I just couldn't take it anymore. My patience, although vast, is not without limits, especially when it comes to ignorance. I hope it is perceived as constructive and informative.

But the short answer is, not too long. I can type pretty darn fast.

[Tensei85]

Hey One student,
I'm not from the Shaolin Do lineage but I did enjoy the read of your post as well. Keep it up.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's an idea: Lets say someone who thinks they know about martial arts, maybe they do, maybe they don't (maybe they are really good at dancing or posing for pictures), goes to a school for awhile, and thinks the teachers there are no good and he/she can beat up all their black belts.....That instructor shoud be ashamed for being associated with one who shows so little honor and respect, for anyone, deserving or not. That instructor obviously tolerates disrespect, encourages the insulting tongue, invites the provoking blow, and has no more of a concept of bushido, or honor and respect in general, than any clown off the street.

I agree with your sense of ethics, but I think your ethic here is a little out of context. SD is guilty of passing itself off as something it's not, at times--that is the source of almost all the criticism. I think much of the "Shaolin" without the "do" is misleading. I think citing the stele for authenticity is misleading. I think the "Grandmaster of Shaolin" again without the "do" is misleading. And these are misleading "factos" that are still propagated without the bat of an eyelash.

I personally don't care about SD history that much. I'm into martial arts, and I enjoy both the martial and art aspect. I didn't sign up for a history lesson or a lineage boost. SD has a nice blend of hte martial and the art. I don't think most students cared about Shaolin history...that is, until they find out what they've were told before they invested their time into the art was in fact not peer-reviewed. And if it wasn't peer reviewed, and the SD "pamphleteers" knew it wasn't, but still pawned it off as truth and pretended to be leading authorities---why should I trust them with anything, much less my money, time, and effort?

Such was my dilemma. When people misrepresent "truth" they don't respect your capacity to find it out for yourself. That's disrespectful. I only care about SD history because it is false, yet masquerading as truth.

Some teachers are more progressive. Thankfully, I consider ATL to be so. But the organization is not, if you judge it by its web/print publications.

I wasn't pizzed off that SD wasn't linked to Shaolin temple. I didn't care about hte forms being dissed as "unauthentic" on chatrooms. I've seen demos by leading authorities on all things kung-fu on this site.....and I was unimpressed.

Honestly, when I started Kung Fu I didn't even know there were such things as "codified" "across-the-borders-of-the-world-same-pattern-forms". I figured schools pretty much just made them up for demos, exhibiting the canonical techniques they'd learned from their teachers, now choreographed just for showing-off or for fun. Man was I wrong...or was I?:eek: What I was pizzed off at was that what I invested time into and was proud of had conducted its historical research so poorly, had advertised Coke as Pepsi, and such things--as cited above. That is unethical, b/c any halfwit with an enthusiasm for his art will want to know more about it. SD doesn't make that easy with the history it presents. W/O the internet, I might still be talking about the great hairy one at Shaolin Temple, and the destruction of Fukien, and all that jazz. It was hard to be proud of my belts after seeing some of the BS SD puts out. But I got past these details--with much difficulty--and understood my physical effort was worth something, and that my research into the real origiin of the style was worth something different, and I wasn't an SD "pamphleteer" and never will be, and I'll always answer every question posed with the truth as it stands in reality. And when I wear my black belt, it means something because someone else saw something in that effort. Maybe the organization as a whole didn't, but I know my teachers who know me and watched me grow into MA did see something. I respect the people I know, and I respect the arts they dedicated themselves to. But the system's history........I respect its true history, but not the unreliable and fabricated one.

Guess what? Now we can know more about our history, and we do. And still the bad history resurges, gets pasted on www.shaolingrandmaster.com, and there is no "ethic" to the continuation of bad history. The entire history of the art seems like a sham, because there is no mention of the creation of SD in Kentucky, of both GM The's teaching together--and all that. Where's the mention of multiple masters in a school in Bangdung, rather than the usual story that GM Ie was an exiled monk who taught GM The' and some other students---where's the mention of Central Plains Wushu school? Of his teaching-peers, apparently versed in a variety of styles? The "commercial" aspects of SD's history have been jettisoned by the SD "pamphleteers" in favor of a transmission that essential tries to pawn off on the public the following lineage:

Shaolin Temple & GM Su Kong---GM Su Kong in the mountains & Shaolin Temple/GM Ie (a Shaolin monk at a dubious Temple)---GM Ie (an exiled monk) & GM The' (the indoor student of a monk)------GM The' and authentic Shaolin ties & the American student body.

We know this is not true. We know it is misrepresentative. Nobody at Shaolin knows anything of Shaolin-Do. And this kind of misrepresentation is kind of appaling in my opinion. I'm not trying to be disrespectful---but I think it's disrespectful to represent Shaolin-Do in the way it is represented from the top down. If you sign your name to an article you didn't write, or someone helped to draft...or if you allow that to pass in your name...you're adding your assent to it. So you can't weasel out of that one.

Sure, MA history isn't bonafide history...but guys like Meir Shahar show just how amateurish and unreliable SD's historical research is. It's like a recap of every Shaw brothers legend in technicolor....which SD is saying is some kind of digitial tour-de-force based on actual documents.

I looked around Atlanta for the best "teachers" as I cross-trained, not the most respected styles, and I've been happy with SD for the most part. Sometimes it lacks some of the finer points, and sometimes you have to go to the sources to refine your material--that is, if you do love the "art" of "martial arts" and you want to progress. I've heard some crappy theories passed around in SD schools by assistant teachers that I know the head teacher didn't pass around---so where's the info coming from? It's coming from the sources SD puts out as its offical manifesto.

Why don't the SD websites cite GM The' as having created "Shaolin-Do" to suit his commercial needs, or to put his own stamp on the art? Why don't they cite full lineages including Hiang? That is revisionist history, and it's rather annoying to a researcher. So when SD pokes at the unreliable history of Shaolin in general, due to Communist revision, I only shake my head and say, with irony, "He who has a mote in his eye...."

I'm a grad student. I don't believe in trusting any one source. I believe in citing your sources, and only using bonafide sources. I think if someone writes something misleading, it is immoral. I think if you're passing on an oral tradition, you better **** well insist on its oral transmission and "according to one story" type of format; and you better provide a review of formal criticism. I just don't see that in SD lit. GM The' likes telling stories and legends. I think most of us enjoy listening to them when he's talking to us about hte background of styles and forms at festivals and such--but we probably don't believe these tall tales as fact, right? Nor should we. But SD's "historical legacy" is so full of pitfalls and half-shades of truth, critics have plenty to gripe about, and I think they have the moral obligation to do so. I have personally considered it my goal to root out the bull&*(% and scrounge up the scraps of truth. Why? Because if someone asks me the history of my style, my forms, etc., I should know the difference between tall tales and real hard facts. I should know that the 2 China Hand forms are not tiger forms--they're old longfist forms....that's peer-reviewed. I shoudl know my Tai Chi 64 is Cheng Man Ching's. I should know hte difference between the forms. I should know my Bagua is Jiang Rong Qiao's Classical Bagua. And I should know those are modern forms that do not descend from Shaolin. I should know that Shaolin temples and Wudang temples did not form a parent Shaolin network.

GM The' studied at Central Plains Wushu. Not quite "Shaolin-Do", and certainly casts doubt on the "undercover" nature of the style.

Why not simply say GM The' created the style? I'm sure he re-ordered hte structure. The cirriculum is not the same as it was at the beginning. We have internal programs now. I'm sure he picked up his Tai Chi in America or in Indonesia, but since our Tai Chi 64 is Cheng Man Ching's 37 posture form---it's a late edition---certainly not what "Secrets of the Temple" puts out there. Our Bagua is Jiang Rong Qiao Classical Baguazhang---certainly not the Tung Hai Chuan (I think that's his name) the SD book puts out there, crediting a link between some ancient Taoist trade of secrets. SD is much more modern than it advertises.

GM The' is a laid-back dude, from what I've seen. He's had plenty of ambitions. He seems to admit when he makes mistakes. But the history....man......why not own up to what we know, and what we know is not true?

I do this personally. It would be nice to see an organizational move on that point.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm not trying to light a fire under anyone's ass. But all of us are students (teachers or otherwise) and I'm sure we agree with most of what I've just said, even if not with the way I've said it.

Fortunately for us, we're not in charge of hte system...LOL....but we are in charge of ourselves.

Everyone has to find their own way through any MA, and its associated BS--and every MA except MMA has that BS (But then, MMA often has so many self-righteous, self-centered *azzwholes* in it it's almost unbearable).

SD generally acts with class to its attackers, and JP & BQ (etc.) have enough class to cover up for my generally jesterish ribald, which is ever bringing what the dog saw fit to leave outside right back into the living room.

But having class isn't just putting up a hand and telling people to talk to said hand as you go about the usual business. Sometimes it's admitting mistakes, citing better information, and getting a better grasp of what you actually know to be true, versus what others have told you is true.

[Baqualin]

I'm not trying to light a fire under anyone's ass. But all of us are students (teachers or otherwise) and I'm sure we agree with most of what I've just said, even if not with the way I've said it.

Fortunately for us, we're not in charge of hte system...LOL....but we are in charge of ourselves.

Everyone has to find their own way through any MA, and its associated BS--and every MA except MMA has that BS (But then, MMA often has so many self-righteous, self-centered *azzwholes* in it it's almost unbearable).

SD generally acts with class to its attackers, and JP & BQ (etc.) have enough class to cover up for my generally jesterish ribald, which is ever bringing what the dog saw fit to leave outside right back into the living room.

But having class isn't just putting up a hand and telling people to talk to said hand as you go about the usual business. Sometimes it's admitting mistakes, citing better information, and getting a better grasp of what you actually know to be true, versus what others have told you is true.

You should do well in this world:cool:
BQ

[OldandUsed]

Shaolin Wookie....

That has got to be the single, most well written dissertation regarding SD and the issues with it that I have ever read. Well done!

[Tensei85]

Awesome post! Shaolin Wookie.

Other than Shaolin Wookie I've heard the negative aspects of Shaolin Do, but I'm wondering about the positives for each member in other words what kept you guys going so long? I think thats an important factor as well. thanks

[OldandUsed]

Tensei85...

I stayed in SD for quite a while because I enjoyed the workout, the contact sparring, the people for the most part and the diversity of material. I had experience in other arts, and have continued that study since leaving SD, and compared to some of them the SD people did not do bad. In fact, since first starting SD in 1970, I have been pleasantly surprised at how many other systems/schools/players I have encountered that did not do as well as the SD. Of course, that is just my experience and others may have other experiences. I do not regret a single minute of my time in SD, but recognize a philosophical difference that caused me to leave.

[godzillakungfu]

It was fun. Plain and simple. As the internet grew, I realized I wasn't doing Shaolin.

My school sparred hard, which is what I wanted. I made good friends which, was a bonus. We worked on SD and techniques, which is what I wanted. I travelled, which I hate but, ended up getting me out of my comfort zone. I actually made it to Kentucky once. I'm from the west coast.


Great Post Wookie.

[yeti]

Awesome post! Shaolin Wookie.

Other than Shaolin Wookie I've heard the negative aspects of Shaolin Do, but I'm wondering about the positives for each member in other words what kept you guys going so long? I think thats an important factor as well. thanks

Wookie did a great job with his FAIR approach to some of the drawbacks of SD, which is nice because often you just hear bashing.

I agree with the others, I stuck with it for a long time because it was fun. I made a lot of good friends, many of whom I still train with or hang out with, like Stoneheart. The exercise is very good if you put in some effort, and I really enjoyed that. On the other hand, the history is dubious and seems to be influenced in some part by marketing, while some aspects are left out, which have been covered earlier in this thread. And it sometimes seems like there are a lot of extra expenses, like festivals and conditioning classes. While most of them aren't necessary for advancement, I really feel like a school should be making the vast majority off members' tuition payments and not by selling them all sorts of extra forms, training classes, DVDs, etc. All of these things should be part of the benefit of being a member of that school, in my opinion. Though I imagine running a martial arts school would be tough and I've never done so myself, so I try to keep this in mind when I see emails going out about this festival, this special training program, this DVD, all at extra cost to the student. At least here in Atlanta, it seems like this type of thing has really gotten out of hand over the last 5-8 years; a decade ago there were 4 festival classes a year that were extra cost, maybe 1-2 of the brown belt trainings. I'm going to try to stem the flow of griping there.

[kwaichang]

No offense to wookie but he sounds like most of the grad students I have talked to and read from. If history or research cant prove it it doesnt exist or isnt a "fact". I appreciate that approach but realise from experience in a work field that is Science based that all things cant be proven. I was reading on another thread that a Fukien Shaolin Monastery was "just " discovered thus there are flaws in all research. I too am not trying to start something but I have compared HUa forms with other "styles of Hua" and note many similarities and as well as the other things taught in SD and other systems as well. Even what the Monks teach and do does not look like the old Shaolin from what I have read. Also Wookies cites of the History of SD is nothing of what I have learned as the History. I have spoken to GMT regarding this as well and am convinced that what he says and cites is verifiable. I think others have warped what was originally said this happens often. Humphrey bogart did not say " Play it again Sam" this is just an example. Why do all people want others to agree and admit they are wrong? Usually it is due to an under lying ego. BTW I 1st trained in SD in 1981 and the history taught by that teacher is the same as now but now the dates and souirces are more verifiiable. Thanks to research KC:)

When I started it was 20.00 per month when I moved from where I trained it was 45.00 per month, many want to make a mint teaching I would charge 45for the SD classes and 60 for internal and external togethor. If I teach an extra form it is 30.00 and that is for paint or a floor or aircond.

[Leto]

Also Wookies cites of the History of SD is nothing of what I have learned as the History. I have spoken to GMT regarding this as well and am convinced that what he says and cites is verifiable. I think others have warped what was originally said this happens often. Humphrey bogart did not say " Play it again Sam" this is just an example. Why do all people want others to agree and admit they are wrong? Usually it is due to an under lying ego. BTW I 1st trained in SD in 1981 and the history taught by that teacher is the same as now but now the dates and souirces are more verifiiable. Thanks to research KC:)

The problem I had with the "history", is that it does not give detailed information on the origins of any of the forms. There is no mention of where each form came from, who taught it to who, how old it is, etc. All we get is, GMT was taught everything he knows by Ie Chang Ming, and he was taught everything he knew by SKTJ, who learned every style of martial arts that existed at the time (which were all being taught in the fukien shaolin temple, including the internal arts). Does anyone really believe that is true? Really?

If this is "warped", please tell us the truth! This is essentially what everyone is told as the only lineage and history of the style. Some of you guys act like this isn't the complete story, and there is some information you have which convinces you that everything is kosher, but you never make an attempt to correct it. Why is this some big secret? Did you swear a blood oath (or equivalent) to GMT never to reveal the true origins of his art? And don't say "It's no secret, the answers are right in front of your face", or something similar. The truth has been obscured, or at least omitted, and we all know it.

Why isn't it presented, up front, which forms were created by GMT as training aids (and when), which were created by ICM, which were inherited from different sources, etc.?

Can someone of the early generation of students please tell us the real story, which GMT shared with you, that has convinced you?

If Hiang The's story is true, about the group of teachers in Indonesia, why doesn't SD and GMT tell us that, and the specifics about who taught which forms, and the lineages of those other teachers? Surely they weren't all students of the hairy monk Su Kong?
Why can't anyone reveal where and when GMT learned Chen Man Ching's 37 posture form, Jiang Rong Qiao's classical bagua, and all the other internal forms? Is it a coincidence that both those forms (and I'm sure others) were in published form in the 1960's and 70's?

These are the kinds of questions and details that I would like to know (not that it matters what I would like).

If there is not some dubious reason to cover up all this information, why does it not flow freely from senior masters down to the newer generations? Why does it have to be hidden from the public? Is there something so precious and sacred that only the oldest and most loyal disciples get to know what they're actually learning and where it came from? If the methods are authentic and traditional, what harm can come of telling everyone the truth?

I have a feeling most people don't really know, and will never know, the answers to most of these questions (even the longest-time students). In practice, people didn't and don't ask questions like this, teacher teaches and you follow without question. You learn and perform what he tells you to, and later on if he offers some tidbit about its history, you accept it and move on, whether it makes sense or not. Too busy training to bother with such things, and in a way I agree with this sentiment. But after a while, there has to be a point where you say "wait a minute, does any of this make sense? why would he not tell me the truth?"

maybe it's like Obi Wan Kenobi said...
Luke: "But you told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father!"
Obi Wan: "What I told you was true...from a certain point of view"
"from a certain point of view?!" , says an incredulous Luke


From a certain point of view...the true shaolin is in your heart. Everything you practice is "shaolin" if your heart is there, right? GMT has the heart of shaolin, so whatever he learned and wherever it came from, if you practice with the right mindset, it is "the true and authentic shaolin". So what he told us is true, from a certain point of view... Am I on the right track? :)

[kwaichang]

First of all SKDJ was at the Fukien Temple was it the one we know of or one like the one that was just discovered to exist ? Who knows? The forms did not all come from the same area or temple this is explained in the history section of one of the sites . There was Omei Kwang Tung Henan Fujien Etc. SKDJ had traveled to these and learned there. Remember although he was Hairy he was supposed to be very gifted in other ways. Like wise ICM was not a renegade monk he left to study with SKDJ............ You can read the rest. But the point is much ofthe history has been skewed by some of the Masters of SD to fit their ego laden personalities and eventually casting doubt on the art as a whole. From the uniform to the "harry guy " etc . KC

[yeti]

The problem I had with the "history", is that it does not give detailed information on the origins of any of the forms. There is no mention of where each form came from, who taught it to who, how old it is, etc. All we get is, GMT was taught everything he knows by Ie Chang Ming, and he was taught everything he knew by SKTJ, who learned every style of martial arts that existed at the time (which were all being taught in the fukien shaolin temple, including the internal arts). Does anyone really believe that is true? Really?

If this is "warped", please tell us the truth! This is essentially what everyone is told as the only lineage and history of the style. Some of you guys act like this isn't the complete story, and there is some information you have which convinces you that everything is kosher, but you never make an attempt to correct it. Why is this some big secret? Did you swear a blood oath (or equivalent) to GMT never to reveal the true origins of his art? And don't say "It's no secret, the answers are right in front of your face", or something similar. The truth has been obscured, or at least omitted, and we all know it.

Why isn't it presented, up front, which forms were created by GMT as training aids (and when), which were created by ICM, which were inherited from different sources, etc.?

Can someone of the early generation of students please tell us the real story, which GMT shared with you, that has convinced you?

If Hiang The's story is true, about the group of teachers in Indonesia, why doesn't SD and GMT tell us that, and the specifics about who taught which forms, and the lineages of those other teachers? Surely they weren't all students of the hairy monk Su Kong?
Why can't anyone reveal where and when GMT learned Chen Man Ching's 37 posture form, Jiang Rong Qiao's classical bagua, and all the other internal forms? Is it a coincidence that both those forms (and I'm sure others) were in published form in the 1960's and 70's?

These are the kinds of questions and details that I would like to know (not that it matters what I would like).

If there is not some dubious reason to cover up all this information, why does it not flow freely from senior masters down to the newer generations? Why does it have to be hidden from the public? Is there something so precious and sacred that only the oldest and most loyal disciples get to know what they're actually learning and where it came from? If the methods are authentic and traditional, what harm can come of telling everyone the truth?

I have a feeling most people don't really know, and will never know, the answers to most of these questions (even the longest-time students). In practice, people didn't and don't ask questions like this, teacher teaches and you follow without question. You learn and perform what he tells you to, and later on if he offers some tidbit about its history, you accept it and move on, whether it makes sense or not. Too busy training to bother with such things, and in a way I agree with this sentiment. But after a while, there has to be a point where you say "wait a minute, does any of this make sense? why would he not tell me the truth?"

maybe it's like Obi Wan Kenobi said...
Luke: "But you told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father!"
Obi Wan: "What I told you was true...from a certain point of view"
"from a certain point of view?!" , says an incredulous Luke


From a certain point of view...the true shaolin is in your heart. Everything you practice is "shaolin" if your heart is there, right? GMT has the heart of shaolin, so whatever he learned and wherever it came from, if you practice with the right mindset, it is "the true and authentic shaolin". So what he told us is true, from a certain point of view... Am I on the right track? :)

This. I think there are some coincidences with regard to the inclusion of certain material, like you said, the baqua and tai chi forms. And Master Hsiang's story versus GM The's. What need for separate stories at all? Why not admit to learning from several masters in one school? I used to think "who would fabricate a lineage that includes a HAIRY Grandmaster." And I could chalk up a lot of stories, like the ninja in the rafters and GM Ie killing eleven people to stories that were told to GM The and he's simply passing on as part of the experience. I don't think aspects of the history like that are really even worth worrying about - they could simply have been the marketing GM Ie was using at the time? What gets me is some of the material that is taught today. Where's it coming from? Why is it that much of it becomes available within SD around the same time it appears elsewhere? The bagua form and tai chi forms come to mind, as well as the Shaolin 5 Animal form - Stoneheart knows more about that one, (Sorry there dude.)

[goju]

First of all SKDJ was at the Fukien Temple was it the one we know of or one like the one that was just discovered to exist ? Who knows? The forms did not all come from the same area or temple this is explained in the history section of one of the sites . There was Omei Kwang Tung Henan Fujien Etc. SKDJ had traveled to these and learned there. Remember although he was Hairy he was supposed to be very gifted in other ways. Like wise ICM was not a renegade monk he left to study with SKDJ............ You can read the rest. But the point is much ofthe history has been skewed by some of the Masters of SD to fit their ego laden personalities and eventually casting doubt on the art as a whole. From the uniform to the "harry guy " etc . KC

no matter how you want to slice it the sd forms do not resemble south kung fu in the least simple as that to say they were lost forms just adds to the more over all arrogant attitude of the sschool
if 900 forms werent bad enough lol

[goju]

and my attitude is if you get a funny feeling about something being a lie then it usually is when you have doubt its not worth doing

[yeti]

Alright!! Goju is back! I was getting worried about you there, buddy. I thought maybe you'd calmed down, or finally had enough SD bashing. I still think you should say something nice to Kwaichang. You don't have to like everything about someone to pay them a compliment. You may not like the fact that KC does SD, but you might respect his long dedication to martial arts in general. The fact is man, you need to look at the upside of things. If you focus only on the negative, that's what your life becomes. For example, I have complained a little bit about a few of the things that bug me with SD, having been on the inside long enough to see things progress. However, what I might not have completely communicated is that these complaints are very minor, and are far outweighed by my experience training in SD. So in this example, I might not like all the extraneous (though not necessary for advancement) expenses and the dubious recent history, I can still appreciate the fact that, contrary to your belief, SD turns out some pretty kick-ass martial artists in great physical condition.

[Shaolin Wookie]

First of all SKDJ was at the Fukien Temple was it the one we know of or one like the one that was just discovered to exist ? Who knows? The forms did not all come from the same area or temple this is explained in the history section of one of the sites . There was Omei Kwang Tung Henan Fujien Etc. SKDJ had traveled to these and learned there. Remember although he was Hairy he was supposed to be very gifted in other ways. Like wise ICM was not a renegade monk he left to study with SKDJ............ You can read the rest. But the point is much ofthe history has been skewed by some of the Masters of SD to fit their ego laden personalities and eventually casting doubt on the art as a whole. From the uniform to the "harry guy " etc . KC

Believe it or not, when I was writing last night I thought to myself: "You know....I bet you KC is going to reply to this." And you did, and did so exactly like I figured you would.:)

The question isn't: "There is evidence of Fukien, so why is our history not legitimate?" The question also isn't: "If you do research on JSTOR or in a university library on Hypertrichosis, you'll find photos and evidence of many cases of hypetrichosis in China, Malaysia, Burma, Eastern Europe, and Russia---so why not Su Kong?"

Many styles claim lineages from Fukien and some even hearken back to the Ten Tigers. That's fine. But I bet you ten bucks their Master could tell you what school he used to study at, who the Master was, who his Master's colleagues were, and who specialized in what. I can do the same with my teacher, his colleagues, his teacher, and their specializations, etc. So can you, I bet. I can take one look at a form from a related SD school and tell what style the master was most proficient in. Why? Variations and stylizations speak volumes about the inheritance of knowledge. Most styles can trace a lineage back a couple of generations, and many of those lineages intersect. They'll sooner or later delve back into a lineage of legend---ending at Shaolin or with Wong Fei Hung or some such person. But in between, there's verifiable history. That history actually has substance.

So, let's say we stick thirty traditional CMA masters into a room and they start talking about lineages. Twenty-nine of them find paralells, recognize other masters' masters or their colleagues, and see some intersection in forms and variations. Maybe some of them don't see intersection, and their lineages are a little more obscure due to geography, etc. This might not mean anything important, but it has substance. All of the sudden, this guy in the corner starts talking about some great great hairy dude with amazing skills, who saved shaolin with his supersensitive hearing and sixth sense training by throwing daggers at ninjas from the rafters.......I don't know why, but I think I just might be a little skeptical about the ninjas and the rafters.

Look. I don't believe the SD history. I love the art. I actually (:o)enjoy the story of the great great hairy one and the Shaolin Justice League. I find it cool to link SD history to Shaw Bros. movies and the legends of White Eyebrows. But dude....that's legends and oral traditions and them thangs.....that's not history. Does our legendary link with Shaolin, supposedly destroyed by White Eyebrows, suddenly make Kill Bill 2 a respectable historical record of our authenticity?

Shaolin-Do has no sense of itself. GM Sin's certif. owns up to the origins of his school. His brother--who spent a lot of time in Indonesia--admits to multiple masters...as do other students of Shaolin-Do. Wouldn't you like to know who practiced what, where your forms came from, who the masters were, etc.? Wouldn't you like to know a little more about your art besides GM Sin's stories? STories are fine, but a history is something different. Stories pass on meaning, but history passes on substance.

Cheng Man Ching's treatises are the greatest resource on SD's tai chi available. I found them by accident. I didn't know it was our tai chi at the time, but then I saw Waysun Liao's translation of the Tai Chi Classics, with the 37 posture form illustrated in the back.

Sometimes 1 + 1 = 2. And viola....a world of peer-reviewed info about my tai chi was opened up to me. I've met W.C.C. Chen guys and still practice with them (a lineage branch from Cheng Man Ching-reaching back to Yang Cheng-Fu)....I find that special. I find that interesting. I see differences, I see likenesses....but more importantly, that substantial link led to personal meaning, an increase in information, and much better tai chi practice on my part.

When I first saw Luo Jinhua's Bagua, I didn't even recognize it. It was wushufied, and it was fantastic. But then I saw teh movements were my movements, with sections cut in half. And then I got his DVD's, and bam....it was a new way to look at my bagua. Thanks to the net, I can follow changes in Jiang Rong Qiao and Sha Guozheng, and there's this whole world I can relate to---not jsut this isolated system mastered and bottled up in an ancient vessel......a really hairy vessel.

Sean pointed out to me the link between Jeet Kuen and our China hands. I talked to some Ying Jow Pai guys who practice it. They said they got it from Ching Woo. A Ching Woo Association rep schooled me to the probably origins.

The forms look a lot alike...even the weird bows at the beginning and end.

Again, those links can have meaning....but they all rely on substance.

Here's a recap of SD history.

Su Kong was a hairy orphan, Shaolin master, Ninja-killer in the rafters, mountain-dwelling Kung Fu Master.

GM Ie was a renegade Shaolin who killed five Cult. Rev. Azzwipes and studied with the only repository of true Shaolin--forming an unholy alliance of Shaolin mastery that would stand in defiance of all CMA history, and occasionally pose for photos and paintings.....incredibly hairy photos and paintings.

There are three guys. Three guys? Are you kidding me? I can name like 50 Shaolin-Do dudes with skills. I could name 50 more skilled kung-fu guys around Atlanta.....

Three dudes?

:confused:

Is it any wonder SD catches flack or people accuse it of plagiarism?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I mean that with all the possible respect.

I know it sounds a little azzholish.

I could sketch a history of SD based on stuff I've picked up. It would include some locations, some names, etc. And I bet it wouldn't be that far off the mark. But that's not really my responsibility, and it wouldn't increase actual knowledge of the art, you know?

What I do in the classroom isn't related to the history. Two substances. Would be nice to be able to associate a greater meaning to it, at times. SD forms can be very difficult, and they can get frustrating. When frustration settles in, the historical stuff makes you wonder--"what the hell am I doing here? Maybe I suck because the material is flawed......."

That's why people leave the system. They enjoy it. It's fun. It's challenging. They respect their efforts. They have pride in what they're doing. Then the historical blip, and blamo: and all is meaningless.

Oh well....

[sean_stonehart]

This. I think there are some coincidences with regard to the inclusion of certain material, like you said, the baqua and tai chi forms. And Master Hsiang's story versus GM The's. What need for separate stories at all? Why not admit to learning from several masters in one school? I used to think "who would fabricate a lineage that includes a HAIRY Grandmaster." And I could chalk up a lot of stories, like the ninja in the rafters and GM Ie killing eleven people to stories that were told to GM The and he's simply passing on as part of the experience. I don't think aspects of the history like that are really even worth worrying about - they could simply have been the marketing GM Ie was using at the time? What gets me is some of the material that is taught today. Where's it coming from? Why is it that much of it becomes available within SD around the same time it appears elsewhere? The bagua form and tai chi forms come to mind, as well as the Shaolin 5 Animal form - Stoneheart knows more about that one, (Sorry there dude.)

Yeah it's cool... no worries.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's why the system pays off and people stick with it:

Chin-na (IMO, too often stressed for the evasion half, not stressed enough as an attacking/wrestling method)
Sparring Techniques--teach you actual fighting-stance techs/combos. Can be really useful and really...really effective if you get 'em down pat and train them on a bag in various ways. I've cleaned up in sparring with them. If you've been around the kung fu circuit even just a little, you'll start to see trapping hands in the techs, chinna, etc. These become your bread and butter,.
Short Forms-Abstract, weird...but they teach you how to move and keep your hands constantly moving. If you chamber after every strike, it looks exactly like a blend of Tan Tui and Lohan forms.
Ippons (Japanese name, I know, but the same 1-2 step techniques you get in most kung fu schools eventually---you just learn them quicker here).
Techniques (We call 'em "Street-fighting techs") which are basic throws, chin-na, and sweeps done in combinations.

These are the foundation of the entire art. If you get good at all of these techniques, you have a foundation in Longfist, practical sparring, basic combos, locks, mild wrestling, etc.

Over time, you see that your forms are predicated on these techniques. You basically practice 1000 ways to do 10 things.

You get frustrated at first, because you can't draw the link between application and forms. You figure it's abstract. Then you begin to get hints of applications--some are off the wall and unrealistic. Then you refine your applications--and they start looking like your techniques/take downs. All of the sudden, you see the interconnectedness in the theory and what you're practicing--you're always working on the first things you learned (listed above).

Then, you practice body movement to refine your ability to execute the techniques and to get into position.

Next step---onto the next rank or style and begin the process all over again. You constantly challenge your body, mind, will--it's a total learning process. If you practice enough to truly progress, you never regress. If you practice twice a week--well, you're probably doing enough to pass to the next level--but you're not making real progression. More often than not, many SD tiger forms look like crane forms, look like mantis forms. Why? Well, you're probably watching a 2-day a week practitioner. There's nothing wrong with that. That's martial arts--they're getting in shape, learning something new. But the base underneath it all probably isn't that solid. I see a lot of 2-day a week practitioners at other schools. Their "style" is just crisper b/c of the focus on one style.

What's funny is that if you practice daily and, say, don't practice one of your forms for a month, but keep it in your head, you'll find it's that much easier, more crisp, and actually better than the last time you practiced it. Not quite as good as it would be if you practiced every day....but still better.

You evetnually realize that you aren't just learning forms. Your body is learning them and applying everything you learned every day you practice. That body memory makes you better every day. Why not practice 1 form, or 1 style every day? You get good at that 1 form--it makes for a fantastic demo....but are you really learning, or are you refining a form? Hit a bag. I can make up a gajillion combos in as many seconds. When I was doing MMA for a while, I found my punches and kicks were pretty ****ed effective. Some of my combos needed tweaking, but I knew I was on the right track.

I have more material than I know what to do with sometimes, but I bet you my basic crane and tiger is pretty friggin' good. And my White Monkey Steals the Peach is my boxing bread and butter. And I can relate every ippon and every technique to at least 20 different forms. Why? Because I know my forms and my body knows what it's doing.

You don't get that in every art, and it's why I think this is a remarkable system. It's adaptable, rarely rigid, and somewhat open to your interpretation. If you want a cool demo---maybe not the art for you. If you want to grow and learn practical fighting---yeah...but it will definitely depend on who's teaching you and their method of teaching.

That last can be a pitfall if certain individuals add their too-deadly for sparring POV on the material, but more often than not--the system's adaptability gives you room to grow. What's funny is that the too-deadly-for-sparring guys absolutely suck when you spar them. Why? Well, they're not trying to kill you or cripple you, so what do they have left?

You have to train practically. Your knee trap isn't just "smash the sucker--he's crippled". Train it as a check on kicks......stuff like that. You'll pretty soon find you can defend yourself effectively on all fronts and apply it in sparring and in fighting.

That's my POV. Not everyone's....just mine.

I've wasted enough time here over the past 2 days. I'll drop by sometime in September...LOL.

[Leto]

First of all SKDJ was at the Fukien Temple was it the one we know of or one like the one that was just discovered to exist ? Who knows? The forms did not all come from the same area or temple this is explained in the history section of one of the sites . There was Omei Kwang Tung Henan Fujien Etc. SKDJ had traveled to these and learned there. Remember although he was Hairy he was supposed to be very gifted in other ways. Like wise ICM was not a renegade monk he left to study with SKDJ............ You can read the rest. But the point is much ofthe history has been skewed by some of the Masters of SD to fit their ego laden personalities and eventually casting doubt on the art as a whole. From the uniform to the "harry guy " etc . KC


Ok, so Su Kong traveled all over China, learning all the forms of martial arts from everywhere. That isn't really any more clear or sensible. I guess we just need to believe in the fantastic, so that we can achieve the same mythical heights one day, ourselves? We know the northern Shaolin temple was destroyed (yet again) during Chiang Kai Shek's northern expedition in 1926. When was the Fukien temple destroyed, that SKTJ was the "grandmaster" of? This hasn't been discovered yet, because it was a secret temple, and a secret mission to destroy it. The ones that have been discovered by archaeology are not really candidates, because they were destroyed much earlier, like the beginning of the Qing dynasty. What has been skewed? That's what I want to know, specifically. If everyone has got it wrong, and there's really a reasonable and good explanation, why can't we have it? I haven't heard it or read it yet, on any website.
Hiang The's school site has the most reasonable of all, and even that has obvious glaring omissions, such as Ie Chang Ming being known as a master of the internal systems...yet who his teacher in the internal systems was is not mentioned. They also want us to assume that SKTJ learned all these forms of martial arts that existed in the mid/late 19th century, and had time to teach them all to ICM to the point of mastery. When was all this traveling and teaching suposed to occur?
Some people have suggested that maybe ICM did some traveling of his own, undocumented of course, which accounts for the inclusion of many things in our style, and maybe he learned only the core of his style from SKTJ. Of course, we could never know if this is true, because he didn't tell GMT about it. And even if ICM was a master of the internal styles, I find it hard to believe that he learned the 24 posture simplified form created by the Chinese government sports committee in Beijing in 1956. Likewise with Chen Man Ching's 37 posture form, which he created around 1946 in China, to teach later in Taiwan. Maybe ICM knew the 83 posture old frame Chen form, that would make sense...but when and where did GMT learn the other two? Why not tell us that he learned them from someone else, if that's the truth?

Being from Indonesia, maybe it's just the way things are done. Is there less of an emphasis on lineage and ancestors, and more on taking whatever you can find and making it work? Who cares where it came from: a longtime teacher, a seminar, a book, a video, if you're good and can make it work, then it's yours. The important thing is if you can win a fight, not who taught you. If you're strong enough and win enough fights, other people want to know your style, regardless of where it came from. Is that what it's all about? So forget about history and lineage...just make it work.

I'm just trying to figure out the mindset which GMT and his senior students must have about all this. Is it really just about money, and trying to make sure that they're offering as much or more than any other martial arts school/system (at least on paper)? The selling point in some cases I've seen is "We've got everything those other schools have, plus more...we're the most comprehensive, anywhere else you're only getting a tiny portion of what's in our system."

I actually like the content of the system, and wish we just had more information about where it came from and how it should be practiced.

[Baqualin]

Here's why the system pays off and people stick with it:

Chin-na (IMO, too often stressed for the evasion half, not stressed enough as an attacking/wrestling method)
Sparring Techniques--teach you actual fighting-stance techs/combos. Can be really useful and really...really effective if you get 'em down pat and train them on a bag in various ways. I've cleaned up in sparring with them. If you've been around the kung fu circuit even just a little, you'll start to see trapping hands in the techs, chinna, etc. These become your bread and butter,.
Short Forms-Abstract, weird...but they teach you how to move and keep your hands constantly moving. If you chamber after every strike, it looks exactly like a blend of Tan Tui and Lohan forms.
Ippons (Japanese name, I know, but the same 1-2 step techniques you get in most kung fu schools eventually---you just learn them quicker here).
Techniques (We call 'em "Street-fighting techs") which are basic throws, chin-na, and sweeps done in combinations.

These are the foundation of the entire art. If you get good at all of these techniques, you have a foundation in Longfist, practical sparring, basic combos, locks, mild wrestling, etc.

Over time, you see that your forms are predicated on these techniques. You basically practice 1000 ways to do 10 things.

You get frustrated at first, because you can't draw the link between application and forms. You figure it's abstract. Then you begin to get hints of applications--some are off the wall and unrealistic. Then you refine your applications--and they start looking like your techniques/take downs. All of the sudden, you see the interconnectedness in the theory and what you're practicing--you're always working on the first things you learned (listed above).

Then, you practice body movement to refine your ability to execute the techniques and to get into position.

Next step---onto the next rank or style and begin the process all over again. You constantly challenge your body, mind, will--it's a total learning process. If you practice enough to truly progress, you never regress. If you practice twice a week--well, you're probably doing enough to pass to the next level--but you're not making real progression. More often than not, many SD tiger forms look like crane forms, look like mantis forms. Why? Well, you're probably watching a 2-day a week practitioner. There's nothing wrong with that. That's martial arts--they're getting in shape, learning something new. But the base underneath it all probably isn't that solid. I see a lot of 2-day a week practitioners at other schools. Their "style" is just crisper b/c of the focus on one style.

What's funny is that if you practice daily and, say, don't practice one of your forms for a month, but keep it in your head, you'll find it's that much easier, more crisp, and actually better than the last time you practiced it. Not quite as good as it would be if you practiced every day....but still better.

You evetnually realize that you aren't just learning forms. Your body is learning them and applying everything you learned every day you practice. That body memory makes you better every day. Why not practice 1 form, or 1 style every day? You get good at that 1 form--it makes for a fantastic demo....but are you really learning, or are you refining a form? Hit a bag. I can make up a gajillion combos in as many seconds. When I was doing MMA for a while, I found my punches and kicks were pretty ****ed effective. Some of my combos needed tweaking, but I knew I was on the right track.

I have more material than I know what to do with sometimes, but I bet you my basic crane and tiger is pretty friggin' good. And my White Monkey Steals the Peach is my boxing bread and butter. And I can relate every ippon and every technique to at least 20 different forms. Why? Because I know my forms and my body knows what it's doing.

You don't get that in every art, and it's why I think this is a remarkable system. It's adaptable, rarely rigid, and somewhat open to your interpretation. If you want a cool demo---maybe not the art for you. If you want to grow and learn practical fighting---yeah...but it will definitely depend on who's teaching you and their method of teaching.

That last can be a pitfall if certain individuals add their too-deadly for sparring POV on the material, but more often than not--the system's adaptability gives you room to grow. What's funny is that the too-deadly-for-sparring guys absolutely suck when you spar them. Why? Well, they're not trying to kill you or cripple you, so what do they have left?

You have to train practically. Your knee trap isn't just "smash the sucker--he's crippled". Train it as a check on kicks......stuff like that. You'll pretty soon find you can defend yourself effectively on all fronts and apply it in sparring and in fighting.

That's my POV. Not everyone's....just mine.

I've wasted enough time here over the past 2 days. I'll drop by sometime in September...LOL.

Once again very well said!!!!!!!!! Don't stay away so long.....even though I'm curious what you pick up between now and Sept.;)
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

This is great!! This thread has life again!!!

[Baqualin]

Hey Leto,
I had a long response to your post and the sever here screwed it up.....tired of typing and need to get back to work.....will get back and try later.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Wookie Said: "Shaolin-Do has no sense of itself. GM Sin's certif. owns up to the origins of his school. His brother--who spent a lot of time in Indonesia--admits to multiple masters...as do other students of Shaolin-Do. Wouldn't you like to know who practiced what, where your forms came from, who the masters were, etc.? Wouldn't you like to know a little more about your art besides GM Sin's stories? STories are fine, but a history is something different. Stories pass on meaning, but history passes on substance."

Very well said and I agree wholeheartedly. I understand KC's perspective and I too like to think that there's truth to some of these tales simply because the nature of Chinese history allows for that hope because it is open and full of holes and contradictions. But I don't know anything above my own experiences, and while I can chose to believe someone's word as credible without cross-reference and peer-reviewed sources etc., we are talking about faith not facts. Sure there are sources out there that allow one to extrapolate a link, but there's still a leap of faith to connect those dots. Especially when we can see inconsistencies that cannot be denied.

My personal belief is that there are connections to shaolin, but not exclusively like is implied. I have heard references to the colleagues in Indonesia and trust that the material that was taught has a variety of origins that are legitimate. We just won't know of them to any certainty. I guess that’s why I take offense when it is dismissed by the cynical and stupid as fake or made-up. Which is frustrating because its hard to point to anything more than my own personal experience (which I trust) to refute the claims.

I really think that much of this is part of the Indonesian culture and part of passing down tales told by his elders, but there's more out there that we could and should know. Many of us have put it together to our own satisfaction, but that doesn't make it right. It just makes it justifiable.

I think at this point the legends are so much larger than the facts that there will never be anything "'official" clearing up some of the criticisms.

Welcome back Wookie.

[kwaichang]

I do not know where you guys got your History of SD from but there are alot of flaws of your versions. I type slowly and do not have time to give my version of the history that I have learned and researched thus far. Just siffice to say that I have complete confidence of the History that I was taught and have learned from GMT. KC

[tattooedmonk]

I do not know where you guys got your History of SD from but there are alot of flaws of your versions. I type slowly and do not have time to give my version of the history that I have learned and researched thus far. Just siffice to say that I have complete confidence of the History that I was taught and have learned from GMT. KCAre you talking about GMT's lineage or the history of the material absorbed and taught within the art or all of the above?? Most people get the history from the CSC training manual and the websites, not failing to mention ignorant instructors.

Will you site some examples for us , please??

[kwaichang]

Leto above stated " Ok, so Su Kong traveled all over China, learning all the forms of martial arts from everywhere. That isn't really any more clear or sensible. I guess we just need to believe in the fantastic, so that we can achieve the same mythical heights one day, ourselves?" No SKDJ was at the Fukien Temple and absorbed that knowledge, note "I did not say Master" he then traveled to the other 5 temples known, and listed, at that time and absorbed the knowledge there as well This was passed to ICM as he was a student at Fukien prior to the destruction. Also remember that we as a collective whole do not know which Temple in Fukien thehy are speaking of. KC
BTW lets not get into this BS that SD doesnt look like something, else that is irrevelant to the issue.

[goju]

we got are history of sd from the same place sin kwang the did

are arseholes ahahhahahahahhahahahaahhahahaha

[goju]

Leto above stated " Ok, so Su Kong traveled all over China, learning all the forms of martial arts from everywhere. That isn't really any more clear or sensible. I guess we just need to believe in the fantastic, so that we can achieve the same mythical heights one day, ourselves?" No SKDJ was at the Fukien Temple and absorbed that knowledge, note "I did not say Master" he then traveled to the other 5 temples known, and listed, at that time and absorbed the knowledge there as well This was passed to ICM as he was a student at Fukien prior to the destruction. Also remember that we as a collective whole do not know which Temple in Fukien thehy are speaking of. KC
BTW lets not get into this BS that SD doesnt look like something, else that is irrevelant to the issue.

no we should get onto the topic because sd dosnt not resemble south kung fu in the least theres no trapping low kicking etcetc that are characteristics of fukien styles

and now youve all been told different histories by your teachers lol

oh the humanity!!!!!!!!!

[One student]

Think of these points:

Regarding M Hiang "admitting" something, and GMT "not", regarding multiple teachers. I've never heard GMT or anyone else ever say he had only one teacher ever for anything. We know he is also a black belt in judo, so he has told us he had more than one teacher. So to say he has denied what M Hiang has admitted, to my knowledge is not accurate.

And, if someone were to ask me my lineage, I'd have to give my most direct instructor who I studied from up to BB, then his teacher (GMT), then his (ICM), then his (SKTJ). Although I have had at least three or four or more black belt/master level instructors in SD, including both GMT and his brother, kind of horizontally rather than vertically. Saying HIS "teacher" is ICM, doesn't necessarily mean he didn't have others, too. Does anyone know that GMT has actually, explicitly said, he learned everything from ICM and nothing from anyone else? Ive never heard that.

Also, I was never told that "our" Pa Kua (Classical) was THE Pa Kua invented by Tai Hu Chang (or whoever). We were told, he invented "pa kua," and then we were started on a "classical" form of it. I think at first, I didn't know there were other forms of pa kua, not because that was what I was told, but because I didn't know any better. Someone else, who didn't know any better, might in fact imply that the first Classical Pa Kua we were taught was THE ORIGINAL Pa Kua. I don't blame that on GMT. And later, other versions of pa kua come out to supplement the Classical. I've got a book by Dr. Yang Jwing Ming listing tons of different versions and forms and derivatives of the original pa kua. No one ever told me the first one was the original.

Same for tai chi. What others have called "our" tai chi, is clearly not JUST "ours." We were taught the history of tai chi, and then taught a basic common tai chi form. No one ever told me it was the original tai chi form invented by the originator. Then later more tai chi forms are given to us, which is probably wise: the basic common stuff first: Tai Chi 101, before the higher levels.

And the same for other stuff.

And, my most direct teacher told me many times (one of GMT's first students ever), that he knew well there was more to even that pa kua, and tai chi, but as he put it, "Why do the same moves over and over just to get a couple variations?"

And here's something I'm pondering: many imply that GMT goes somewhere, learns a form, and then gives it to us, whether it be from a book or whatever. If it was from another PERSON, why isn't that person blowing the whistle? If it is from a book that anyone can get, where is the book? Does anyone have any text for the four Golden Leopards? How about the Meteor Fist? And as for the tai chi and pa kua, for example, resembling other stuff that is basic and readily available, eventually, what is to say that doesn't mean they have that common thread to another source? I'm not ready to say it does or it doesn't, I'm just not ready to assume the worst.

Also, I remember, when for example we were first taught The Five Direction Palm and the Connecting Fist and the four Black Tigers and the Kwan Tao, the three White Crane, even the three Birds from M H, we were told to now go out and teach them to others. I hope that didn't cheapen those I taught it to, because they didn't get it from the source. Yes, I'd rather have learned it from GMT, or MH, and I have been fortunate to do so. Heck, if I had my wish I'd go back in time and beg ICM to teach it to me, or lets go really wild, from SK or the Temple myself. But none of us can do that, so we get what we can from who we can, and hopefully the best we can.

So, acknowledging that GMT knows a lot more about martial arts and fighting than I ever will, if he learns something from anywhere, and is then willing to pass some of it on to me, good for me.

Ok, so there could be a moral problem if in fact he says and the student believes it is something he learned only from ICM who only learned it from SKTJ who only learned it inside a Temple in China. But I don't accept that is what I have been told about any particular form or system, although that is probably true for some of it. Although 1 + 1 = 2, some people insist on making it 3.

And I have had at least five other teachers in five other systems -- TKD, Judo, ninjitsu, Karate (kind of, it was a hybrid system "made up" by its local master, from a combination of karate, Kempo, and kung fu), and also a traditional kung fu system. In some of those schools, I knew who the teacher's teacher was, in some cases met them, in some not. Some I can't say I knew or asked or cared. Maybe naive, but I wanted to know, "What do you have, and what can you teach me?" And like with SD, those questions were answered. Even if others were not.

[kwaichang]

Go Ju I dont know what you were taught but there is more than one low kick and leg check in beginning SD I still dont know where you are coming from with all this. If I dont know what you were taught then I cant show or tell you how I was taught. Likewise Our TigerCrane form is very similar to what I was taught in 1975 by my 1st Sifu. And no he wasnt SD Likewise the Tang Lang that I was taught at SD was and is of the same family of Tang Lang form namely the Bang Bu Chien that I was taught by my 1st Sifu and he was very very "legit". Many like to say that I and others dont know what real Chinese MA looks like but I know different. I did not want to get into a stupid argument because if you judge an art by the lower level outside appearance then you will often be mistaken. Also I would like to add that the ST was a place of refuge for many X military in china and others seeking a different way of life so not all forms that are from the temples were created IN the Temples but were brought there by others then adopted by the temples respectively Heck even WU Dang has a Tai Chi Form KC

[One student]

Anyone torture themselves enough to watch "Deadliest Warriors" on SPIKE? Show pits one "deadly warrior" from history against another, and are "tested" by physics, computers, military, and medical experts as to who is "deadliest" by simulated combats -- some dramatized. Use the weapons against gel torsos, clay pots filled with fake blood, etc.

Samples: Green Berets vs Spetnaz; pirates vs. knights; tonight, Yakuza vs. Mafia.

Last night: Shaoliin Monk vs. Mouri (some pacific island warrior culture I've never heard of). Tested hook swords, staff, chain whip, Emei piercers, vs various clubs and spears, etc. Computer say, Shaolin won 68 % of the time.

Now thats entertainment!

[Leto]

Think of these points:

Regarding M Hiang "admitting" something, and GMT "not", regarding multiple teachers. I've never heard GMT or anyone else ever say he had only one teacher ever for anything. We know he is also a black belt in judo, so he has told us he had more than one teacher. So to say he has denied what M Hiang has admitted, to my knowledge is not accurate.


If GMT had more than one teacher, does anyone know who they were? If he did, then this means our lineage is not exactly GMT-ICM-SKTJ. Some of the material did not come from SKTJ, and some of it likely didn't come from ICM either. Has anyone ever asked GMT questions about where the different forms came from? If he never offered more detailed information, by omission he is implying that it all came from the only teacher he has ever admitted to having. Even if he didn't give great detail, but just said something like "I learned this form on my last trip to Bandung, and I want you guys to learn it.", that would at least be something. Has this ever happened?
Now, I can't figure what the motive would be to maintaining such a lie...except to start telling a different story would be admitting to having misled his original students (who maybe didn't care or want to know more detail about their lineage, they just loved the training, but still...). It's also a sticky situation for a student, you don't just go around questioning the information your teacher gives you, it could be considered disrespectful. Could it be that GM The would be happy to be totally upfront about everything, and give more detail about all his teachers, but no one has ever actually asked him, out of fear it would be considered disrespectful?
It may not have been blatantly stated that the classical bagua form we learned is the original form of dong hai chuan, but we certainly were not told the actual origin of the forms we were taught. Again, omission. For all we knew, the forms might have been invented by Su Kong, or Ie Chang Ming, or GM The himself. When we start seeing other schools practicing similar or identical material (or see it in a book), it's natural to say "hey, where did they learn that?"...and then all the questions begin.
I don't think everything that GMT teaches is from books, at least I really really hope not. But some of the forms that are in our system have definately been published. I've got a translated edition of Jiang Rong Qiao's classical baguazhang on pdf.
It may not be important to everyone, but I'd like to be able to tell people what I practice and where it comes from. Right now, I can only guess beyond that everything came from the Chinese immigrant community in Bandung, collectively.
Maybe if we ask enough times someone who knows something will offer some more information.

[kwaichang]

QUOTE "but we certainly were not told the actual origin of the forms we were taught. Again, omission. For all we knew, the forms might have been invented by Su Kong, or Ie Chang Ming, or GM The himself. " I just looked at my notes of the history of Liu Hsing. There are 2 full hand written pages containing the history and origin and where it came from. Some of the lesser forms GMT may not be sure of where they originated so he doesnt bother. But most likely if you asked he would tell you. I feel it isnt enough to say the Black Tiger Forms are from the SDhang Tung area or temple everyone seems to want more and more. KC

[Leto]

QUOTE "but we certainly were not told the actual origin of the forms we were taught. Again, omission. For all we knew, the forms might have been invented by Su Kong, or Ie Chang Ming, or GM The himself. " I just looked at my notes of the history of Liu Hsing. There are 2 full hand written pages containing the history and origin and where it came from. Some of the lesser forms GMT may not be sure of where they originated so he doesnt bother. But most likely if you asked he would tell you. I feel it isnt enough to say the Black Tiger Forms are from the SDhang Tung area or temple everyone seems to want more and more. KC

I dont want "more and more"...I just want something believable that conforms somewhat to verifiable history. If you learn something, there is usually a name, or a general timeline, or some other detail about when and how it was learned that could be related. I get the impression that in China, and Chinese martial arts, they take that sort of thing pretty seriously. Everyone has a story about who taught what to who and when. And almost everyone does eventually get back to a point where no one really remembers, and they have some legendary figure or place in there, like a nameless wandering monk, a famous general, or the shaolin temple. I guess it just bothers me that our legendary figure is only two generations back, at the beginning of the 20th century, when most other styles have four or five generations at least, going back to the beginning of the qing dynasty.
Did the notes mention how, when, or from whom grandmaster Su Kong learned Liu Hsing? Or when he taught it to Ie Chang Ming, or when it was taught to GM The? Or is it the general history of the Liu Hsing style, with no mention of how it got into our own lineage? That's usually what our "history" stories were like...the general legend about the creation of a style or form, with no mention of how anyone in our lineage learned it.
Everything we do is from an older, undocumented and unknown by anyone else branch of the various styles, which were preserved in temples across China, seperate but evolving parallel to the styles which left the temple and are known by other schools. No one outside knew about the practices going on in the temples, because martial arts had to be practiced in secret, lest the government learn of them and decide to destroy them again. We're the only ones who now preserve that knowledge. Is that the explanation for everything?

Like most people, I know I just have to resign to the fact that, for whatever reason, Ie Chang Ming, Sin The, or both, did not want to reveal the true origin of their knowledge. When someone asks me where I learned my martial arts, I'll say my lineage goes back to the Chinese community in Bandung in the early 20th century, and how it got there is lost to time.

(with a caveat, that I don't know who taught my grandmaster the 24 posture tai chi, 37 posture tai chi, or jian rong qiao bagua which I know, but I presume it was learned sometime in the late 1960's, after he had come to the US)

[Old Noob]

You go away for a few days and a discussion breaks out. Thanks to Goju for stirring the pot enough to provoke what I think is the most frank discussion about SD since the origin of this thread (which is almost as old as SD;)). Thanks to Tensei85 for his injection of manners and common sense to the discussion. Thanks to Old and Used, One Student, Yeti, Wook, and others for having a discussion where differing views are heard and discussed intelligently and respectfully. Wook- good to see you back from semi-retirement.

I'm truly an old newb. At 37, I'm just a year and half into the system. Before that I brought only about a year or two of previous formal martial arts training to the table. However, having been involved in training (not martial arts) and curriculum development professionally, I will say that the SD curriculum is incredibly well designed. Wook made the point better than I could, but at third brown, I'm already seeing how the mechanics of the short forms, sparring techniques, ippons, SF techniques, and chin na, are present over and over again in the long forms. As wookie mentioned, the SD forms can get difficult and it really helps to have developed the muscle memory for the component parts of those forms earlier. Whether ST made this up or not, his organization of the art into this curriculum shows real ingenuity.

Notice in my last paragraph, I don't talk lineage at all. Like Wook, I don't go to class particularly to be part of a larger myth. I go for training, fitness, and comraderie. I do get a little uncomfortable when others ask what type of martial art I train because of the issues Wook illuminated. Still, I don't think a shaky lineage story spoils the whole system as some have alleged. If that were the case, half of TCMA would be forfeit. Most of the SD practitioners I've met are in good shape and can tussle pretty good. All that I've met (even the two-day warriors) are better than they would be if they'd done nothing at all and better than folks I've seen in the other KF school options in my area. You can ask for mor than that if you like but I don't.

Thanks all for the good discussion.

ON

[OldandUsed]

Yeah, see what happens when you turn your head?

I remember a few years back, around 1970-1974 or so, when ST would remark that he had several instructors/masters even though he considered ICM his primary instructor. Just like we have more than one professor in college. He had also mentioned that he had another instructor, other than the sand burning teacher, that he had gone to an individual outside of the school to start learning Tai Chi. When he developed problems and had gone to ICM to fix it, he was then advised that ICM knew internal and that if ST had said he wanted to learn it he would have been taught. And then another line of instruction started. I also remember ST remarking even then that we were the largest single independent martial arts organization in the USA, if not the world. It seemed like he did not really care if someone wanted to dispute his roots. he knew what he had and was content with it. I liked that.

[kwaichang]

Old and Used I confirm what you just posted about GMT getting sick from studying Internal and ICM "fixing" him. Likewise I recall the part about ICM studying from others after leaving SKTJ so some of the holes will remain holes. You cant fill a spot with something you havent been told. Likewise I asked GMT once if he ever thought SD would ever get as big as it is? He said no but he is glad that so many want to learn what he has to teach. KC

[arinathos.valin]

700 pages? Wow...

Thanks to Shaolin Wookie for a few remarkably well written posts, and kudos to everyone recently who's been participating in a controversial discussion with respect and dignity.

I remember bringing up the whole Cheng Man Ching and Jiang Rong Qiao connection with SD internal about 5000 posts ago (!!!!!). It's amazing how this thread keeps on coming around...but I think Shaolin Wookie put my own concerns in print better than I ever did.

Oh... waaaay back when, BQ extended an invitation to me to visit them in SD Lexington. I haven't forgotten about it. I actually might be in the general area in August, so I'll PM you if it might actually work! (caveat... I'm coming down to KY for some family camp, so I have no idea how I'm going to ditch the wife and kids for a stretch...)

[OldandUsed]

KC...

Yes, you are right. I enjoyed my time with both brothers and would not trade it for the world. frankly, I am not as concerned about the whole lineage thing as i am about my own health and fitness. While the many techniques and forms I learned in SD may not be"genuine CMA", they sure do help me stay fit.

Best of luck to you.

[Golden Tiger]

First off, Old and Used, good to see you again. I used to see P.W. from time to time but thought you fell off the face of the earth!

My take, as an old (ancient ) timer is that while some of these dissertation are well thought out and nicely stated, it appears that you are spending a lot of time and way too much effort worrying about the origins and lineages and such. To the point, the info you have is probably all you will ever get concerning SD.

From the people that actually took regular classes week in and week out from Master Sin and Hiang, all the stories just weren't that important. We wanted to A) learn not to get our a$$es handed to us in a fight and B) get in shape. SD for the most part accomplished this. Maybe if we hand pulled out a lineage chart and explained where we learned to fight to the fellow that was about to stomp us, they would have run in fear and avoided the fight altogether...we may never know.

I have noticed that there is a division, as far as importance of history goes, between the older people and the younger ones. Maybe its a case of once you have the confidence in your abilities, you no longer need to try to back it up with paper, so to speak. I think some will see as time goes by that different things become more important...maybe not.

Anyway, as someone that took classes directly from both Master Sin and Master Hiang for many many years, I can attest to the fact that most, if not all, of the time, they would tell where the forms came from, where they got ahold of them at and so on. 99% of the time though, we were like "cool, lets fight and see if it works" instead of taking better history notes. Our bad....

[Leto]

I have noticed that there is a division, as far as importance of history goes, between the older people and the younger ones. Maybe its a case of once you have the confidence in your abilities, you no longer need to try to back it up with paper, so to speak. I think some will see as time goes by that different things become more important...maybe not.

Anyway, as someone that took classes directly from both Master Sin and Master Hiang for many many years, I can attest to the fact that most, if not all, of the time, they would tell where the forms came from, where they got ahold of them at and so on. 99% of the time though, we were like "cool, lets fight and see if it works" instead of taking better history notes. Our bad....

Fair enough. In the end, none of it really matters. It's good to hear that the brothers shared such info, too bad no one remembers it or will ever tell those stories again. No one ever thought that maybe later generations of students would also like to know the history of their style? It's not important to you because they actually gave you some background...most of us later students were never told anything (besides fantastic legends).
It's not about confidence in abilities, or proving anything to anyone else. For me personally, when there's something important to me I want to know as much about it as I can.
If our tradition is really about taking whatever you can from wherever you can and making it work, I can handle that. Forget lineages and history, who cares where you learned it. If you see something and can derive some use from it, then it's yours, regardless of the source. The only "correct" way is the way which is effective in a fight, right?

[Baqualin]

no we should get onto the topic because sd dosnt not resemble south kung fu in the least theres no trapping low kicking etcetc that are characteristics of fukien styles

and now youve all been told different histories by your teachers lol

oh the humanity!!!!!!!!!

What :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[kwaichang]

When more information or history is given then more knowledge of the history is "needed" . Thus people are too concerned about whether the form cam from a Master or Joe Blow. To make themselves feel special by their knowledge of the style instead of the ability they have. I too wish that the history were more clear but am happy with what I know of the history and the knowledge I have. KC

[Golden Tiger]

Fair enough. In the end, none of it really matters. It's good to hear that the brothers shared such info, too bad no one remembers it or will ever tell those stories again. No one ever thought that maybe later generations of students would also like to know the history of their style? It's not important to you because they actually gave you some background...most of us later students were never told anything (besides fantastic legends).

In hind sight, yes, I wish I had learned every name and background and history of the things we learned. Then again, I also wished I had learned all the little things my father tried to teach me when I was in my teens. I could then answer all your questions and not have to pay a fortune to the plumber! Unfortunately, my priorities were much different at the time.

Also, let me add that what I was meaning to say was that when we took classes from Master Sin, there was a lot more time for all the info to come out. Just like in your classes now, there is more time for your teachers to talk a little and not have to try to get x numbers of forms out in a small period of time. But thats reality.

[Baqualin]

Ok, so Su Kong traveled all over China, learning all the forms of martial arts from everywhere. That isn't really any more clear or sensible. I guess we just need to believe in the fantastic, so that we can achieve the same mythical heights one day, ourselves? We know the northern Shaolin temple was destroyed (yet again) during Chiang Kai Shek's northern expedition in 1926. When was the Fukien temple destroyed, that SKTJ was the "grandmaster" of? This hasn't been discovered yet, because it was a secret temple, and a secret mission to destroy it. The ones that have been discovered by archaeology are not really candidates, because they were destroyed much earlier, like the beginning of the Qing dynasty. What has been skewed? That's what I want to know, specifically. If everyone has got it wrong, and there's really a reasonable and good explanation, why can't we have it? I haven't heard it or read it yet, on any website.
Hiang The's school site has the most reasonable of all, and even that has obvious glaring omissions, such as Ie Chang Ming being known as a master of the internal systems...yet who his teacher in the internal systems was is not mentioned. They also want us to assume that SKTJ learned all these forms of martial arts that existed in the mid/late 19th century, and had time to teach them all to ICM to the point of mastery. When was all this traveling and teaching suposed to occur?
Some people have suggested that maybe ICM did some traveling of his own, undocumented of course, which accounts for the inclusion of many things in our style, and maybe he learned only the core of his style from SKTJ. Of course, we could never know if this is true, because he didn't tell GMT about it. And even if ICM was a master of the internal styles, I find it hard to believe that he learned the 24 posture simplified form created by the Chinese government sports committee in Beijing in 1956. He brought 24 back from Indonesia in the late 80"s ( not %100 sure of year) Likewise with Chen Man Ching's 37 posture form, which he created around 1946 in China, to teach later in Taiwan. Very common in Taiwan (some even call it 64.....had a Chinese girlfriend....she called it that first time she saw it) and also Indonesia...did not come from SK would have been easy for GMIe to pick up Maybe ICM knew the 83 posture old frame Chen form, that would make sense (always gave credit to 14th or 17th Gen. Chen master...changed who he gave credit to after 98 china trip to chen village...said GMIe's information was off)....Chen came from Shaolin anyway...but when and where did GMT learn the other two? Why not tell us that he learned them from someone else, if that's the truth?

Being from Indonesia, maybe it's just the way things are done. major secrecy among all styles & common in the area to say their the holders of the real TCMA...they also fight a lot over there Is there less of an emphasis on lineage and ancestors, and more on taking whatever you can find and making it work? Who cares where it came from: a longtime teacher, a seminar, a book, a video, if you're good and can make it work, then it's yours. The important thing is if you can win a fight, not who taught you. If you're strong enough and win enough fights, other people want to know your style, regardless of where it came from. Is that what it's all about? So forget about history and lineage...just make it work.

I'm just trying to figure out the mindset which GMT and his senior students must have about all this. Is it really just about money, and trying to make sure that they're offering as much or more than any other martial arts school/system (at least on paper)? The selling point in some cases I've seen is "We've got everything those other schools have, plus more...we're the most comprehensive, anywhere else you're only getting a tiny portion of what's in our system."

I actually like the content of the system, and wish we just had more information about where it came from and how it should be practiced.

In all my years of SD I've had 2 main teachers GM Sin & EML...in addition I've studied under M. Hiang and got tons of help from all the masters in Lex. including EMS....what I've seen from all especially when they were in their prime showed me what I'm learning is real. Not superhumans....just tough and to the point.
GM Sin & M Hiang were partners for years..... they were super fast and powerful and yes they could do some amazing things...not fantasy crap.....just pure power and speed.

One thing about the early years we didn't have enough forms to worry about where the he!! they came from. We just kick kick kick kick....punch punch punch punch......fight fight fight.....condition condition condition....GMS produced some tough SOB's.....he had us start beating on 4x4's at blue belts....I started with UK classes...$5 or $10 a month (sorry long time ago....really made a lot of money here)....gave us all our first few weapons (+ the 4x4's)

Shaolin Do.......THE WAY OF SHAOLIN

[Baqualin]

Think of these points:

Regarding M Hiang "admitting" something, and GMT "not", regarding multiple teachers. I've never heard GMT or anyone else ever say he had only one teacher ever for anything. We know he is also a black belt in judo, so he has told us he had more than one teacher. So to say he has denied what M Hiang has admitted, to my knowledge is not accurate.

And, if someone were to ask me my lineage, I'd have to give my most direct instructor who I studied from up to BB, then his teacher (GMT), then his (ICM), then his (SKTJ). Although I have had at least three or four or more black belt/master level instructors in SD, including both GMT and his brother, kind of horizontally rather than vertically. Saying HIS "teacher" is ICM, doesn't necessarily mean he didn't have others, too. Does anyone know that GMT has actually, explicitly said, he learned everything from ICM and nothing from anyone else? Ive never heard that.

Also, I was never told that "our" Pa Kua (Classical) was THE Pa Kua invented by Tai Hu Chang (or whoever). We were told, he invented "pa kua," and then we were started on a "classical" form of it. I think at first, I didn't know there were other forms of pa kua, not because that was what I was told, but because I didn't know any better. Someone else, who didn't know any better, might in fact imply that the first Classical Pa Kua we were taught was THE ORIGINAL Pa Kua. Actually it's known as "the Original form" in most circles....A Jerry Allen Johnson utube video list it as Tung Hai-Ch'uan's Pa kua (different strokes for different folks:)) I don't blame that on GMT. And later, other versions of pa kua come out to supplement the Classical. I've got a book by Dr. Yang Jwing Ming listing tons of different versions and forms and derivatives of the original pa kua. No one ever told me the first one was the original.

Same for tai chi. What others have called "our" tai chi, is clearly not JUST "ours." We were taught the history of tai chi, and then taught a basic common tai chi form. No one ever told me it was the original tai chi form invented by the originator. Then later more tai chi forms are given to us, which is probably wise: the basic common stuff first: Tai Chi 101, before the higher levels.

And the same for other stuff.

And, my most direct teacher told me many times (one of GMT's first students ever), that he knew well there was more to even that pa kua, and tai chi, but as he put it, "Why do the same moves over and over just to get a couple variations?"

And here's something I'm pondering: many imply that GMT goes somewhere, learns a form, and then gives it to us, whether it be from a book or whatever. If it was from another PERSON, why isn't that person blowing the whistle? If it is from a book that anyone can get, where is the book? Does anyone have any text for the four Golden Leopards? How about the Meteor Fist? And as for the tai chi and pa kua, for example, resembling other stuff that is basic and readily available, eventually, what is to say that doesn't mean they have that common thread to another source? I'm not ready to say it does or it doesn't, I'm just not ready to assume the worst.

Also, I remember, when for example we were first taught The Five Direction Palm and the Connecting Fist and the four Black Tigers and the Kwan Tao, the three White Crane, even the three Birds from M H, we were told to now go out and teach them to others. I hope that didn't cheapen those I taught it to, because they didn't get it from the source. Yes, I'd rather have learned it from GMT, or MH, and I have been fortunate to do so. Heck, if I had my wish I'd go back in time and beg ICM to teach it to me, or lets go really wild, from SK or the Temple myself. But none of us can do that, so we get what we can from who we can, and hopefully the best we can.

So, acknowledging that GMT knows a lot more about martial arts and fighting than I ever will, if he learns something from anywhere, and is then willing to pass some of it on to me, good for me.

Ok, so there could be a moral problem if in fact he says and the student believes it is something he learned only from ICM who only learned it from SKTJ who only learned it inside a Temple in China. But I don't accept that is what I have been told about any particular form or system, although that is probably true for some of it. Although 1 + 1 = 2, some people insist on making it 3.

And I have had at least five other teachers in five other systems -- TKD, Judo, ninjitsu, Karate (kind of, it was a hybrid system "made up" by its local master, from a combination of karate, Kempo, and kung fu), and also a traditional kung fu system. In some of those schools, I knew who the teacher's teacher was, in some cases met them, in some not. Some I can't say I knew or asked or cared. Maybe naive, but I wanted to know, "What do you have, and what can you teach me?" And like with SD, those questions were answered. Even if others were not.

I have yet to find our Snake Pa Kua, 8 Animal Pa kua ( there's a seperate Pa Kua for each of the 8 animals), or Dragon Pa Kua anywhere else.
BQ

[Leto]

Thanks BQ for the helpful replies. I don't have a beef with calling the CMC yang form 64, or 37.... it does have 64 actual moves. Was the 37/64 form the first internal form GMT taught to you guys, back in the 60's?
I just wondered if GmT learned it from someone other than ICM, since it's popularity and spreading may have come later than the time GmT was studying with ICM regularly. Someone else mentioned that GmT had gone to someone else to learn tai chi, and then came back to his master. Could he have learned the CMC form at that time, before being taught the other internal styles by ICM? Maybe ICM, or Indonesia in general, is different, but my experience with longtime teachers/masters is that they have their style, and pretty much stick to it. If he already knew a form of tai chi and other internal arts, why would he bother learning and including a new short form into his curriculum when it came along in the 50's or 60's? I mean by that point, he had been teaching for quite a number of years, with already a vast amount of material. Then again, it seems like the tradition of this style was to learn anything and everything that you see, and include it. The story of Su Kong reenforces this attitude as a tradition, whether the story is true or not. If that's the attitude he passed on to GMT, I can see why we have so many forms.

[OldandUsed]

Golden Tiger...

Nope, didn't fall off the face of the earth, just got older and wandered off. Yes, PW is a good man and I like him. Hard worker.

Hope you did not misunderstand my post regarding linage. When I wrote "genuine" I used the quotation marks to reference what some others had said. Personally, as I wrote previously, I enjoyed my SD time, both brothers, my classmates and would not trade those experiences for anything. It did not and does not matter to me where the art came from. As far as I am concerned, Sin Kwang The' is a superior martial artist to any I have ever seen and have absolutely zero issues with what he was gracious enough to show me. If that does not indicate my feelings about GMT and his art, I do not know what else to say.

Thank you for your earlier response. Nice to hear from the "old" guys.

[Facepalm]

As some one new to the art and also internet savvy ive had to endure so much slander to something that ive been enjoying and that doesn't seem "made up" and ineffective to me.

It is truly nice to hear from all of you guys who've actually studied with GMT for an extended period of time. Basically you guys let me know that my line of thinking has been pretty reasonable. I dont care much about lineages either, I just know that this system has me moving fast and deceptively, teaches me a staggering array of abilities, and is getting me into the best shape of my life. Plus we get to play with weapons : )

[yeti]

From the people that actually took regular classes week in and week out from Master Sin and Hiang, all the stories just weren't that important. We wanted to A) learn not to get our a$$es handed to us in a fight and B) get in shape. SD for the most part accomplished this. Maybe if we hand pulled out a lineage chart and explained where we learned to fight to the fellow that was about to stomp us, they would have run in fear and avoided the fight altogether...we may never know.


I have never doubted the utility of our art as a means of improving physical conditioning and fighting ability. Greater confidence in oneself follows physical improvements, which I think is one of the top benefits of training in SD. And I think dedicating yourself to an art for its utility is wise, and in the hypothetical scenario where utility and perfect lineage are mutually exclusive, I think it would be a tremendous folly to choose a perfect lineage over the style that will whip your a$s into shape. With that being said, I can also understand where the people really concerned with lineage are coming from. For example, over the past decade I have very fortunately never had the occasion to use my martial training to defend myself or any one else. The last time I defended myself, I was 18 and a first-degree black belt. All I really had to do was pop the guy once in the nose and he was done, he was bleeding too badly to do anything with his hands after that. (No e-bragging) As for the rest of the guys I've trained with, I don't think any of them have had to fight with anyone either, and that's in 13+ years of training in SD. Maybe it's our area, or maybe it's a similar non-violent mindset we share. I'm pretty good at talking to people, so maybe I've avoided conflicts that way? But regardless, I'm convinced that the utility of a martial art depends on the time and place in which it's learned. If I haven't needed anything more than the basics, and we all agreed with Wookie that the Sparring Techs, Ippons, Chin Na, and Short Forms form a very useful base to our system, then what's the point in training past brown or 1st degree black? I don't need to fight for food, survival, or the opportunity to reproduce. I don't live in a rough neighborhood.

So I'm left with the physical and mental conditioning benefits. Why choose martial arts for that? I love weightlifting, I lift 5 days a week. I run on a treadmill afterward to stay lean. But to me, martial arts is FUN. It's social - you train with people who often become your friends. And I don't blame people for wanting to know more about the history of the art, because there are a lot of different personalities that find martial arts engaging. Some people are all about the usefulness of something - its utility is paramount. I think these people are less likely to feel concerned about an art's history, where the forms came from, etc. But I think a lot of people choose MA over bodybuilding or running or another sport because there is a richness of history, tradition, and foreign culture that weightlifting and running and ultimate frisbee don't have, at least to the same extent as martial arts. I think this second type of person may become almost TOO concerned with history and lineage, to the point that they might even leave the system if they become dissatisfied with what they learn about our history.

So I really feel like I see both points of view. And I really don't blame people for wanting more, just like I don't blame the guy who doesn't worry about history and lineage. I just feel like it's a logical disconnect to presume that lineage becomes unimportant because it won't save you in a fight - of course it won't save you in a fight, but again, and I can only speak for myself and those I've been close enough to, but guys who want to stomp me are pretty few and far between. I'm too nice to stomp :p But I think it does follow that since we don't train to survive the rare fight, we train because it's enjoyable, and tradition and history are part of that enjoyment for a large percentage of practitioners, you can't really blame them for wanting to know.

[yeti]

As some one new to the art and also internet savvy ive had to endure so much slander to something that ive been enjoying and that doesn't seem "made up" and ineffective to me.

It is truly nice to hear from all of you guys who've actually studied with GMT for an extended period of time. Basically you guys let me know that my line of thinking has been pretty reasonable. I dont care much about lineages either, I just know that this system has me moving fast and deceptively, teaches me a staggering array of abilities, and is getting me into the best shape of my life. Plus we get to play with weapons : )

It sounds like you're having fun with it - good! This is exactly as it should be. If you're not defending yourself or fighting every day, then you better enjoy the art that you practice, or else it would be cheaper to go lift weights and run. So don't let internet haters take your enjoyment from you. Remember: if you don't have haters, you're doing something wrong.

[Old Noob]

I have never doubted the utility of our art as a means of improving physical conditioning and fighting ability. Greater confidence in oneself follows physical improvements, which I think is one of the top benefits of training in SD. And I think dedicating yourself to an art for its utility is wise, and in the hypothetical scenario where utility and perfect lineage are mutually exclusive, I think it would be a tremendous folly to choose a perfect lineage over the style that will whip your a$s into shape. With that being said, I can also understand where the people really concerned with lineage are coming from. For example, over the past decade I have very fortunately never had the occasion to use my martial training to defend myself or any one else. The last time I defended myself, I was 18 and a first-degree black belt. All I really had to do was pop the guy once in the nose and he was done, he was bleeding too badly to do anything with his hands after that. (No e-bragging) As for the rest of the guys I've trained with, I don't think any of them have had to fight with anyone either, and that's in 13+ years of training in SD. Maybe it's our area, or maybe it's a similar non-violent mindset we share. I'm pretty good at talking to people, so maybe I've avoided conflicts that way? But regardless, I'm convinced that the utility of a martial art depends on the time and place in which it's learned. If I haven't needed anything more than the basics, and we all agreed with Wookie that the Sparring Techs, Ippons, Chin Na, and Short Forms form a very useful base to our system, then what's the point in training past brown or 1st degree black? I don't need to fight for food, survival, or the opportunity to reproduce. I don't live in a rough neighborhood.

So I'm left with the physical and mental conditioning benefits. Why choose martial arts for that? I love weightlifting, I lift 5 days a week. I run on a treadmill afterward to stay lean. But to me, martial arts is FUN. It's social - you train with people who often become your friends. And I don't blame people for wanting to know more about the history of the art, because there are a lot of different personalities that find martial arts engaging. Some people are all about the usefulness of something - its utility is paramount. I think these people are less likely to feel concerned about an art's history, where the forms came from, etc. But I think a lot of people choose MA over bodybuilding or running or another sport because there is a richness of history, tradition, and foreign culture that weightlifting and running and ultimate frisbee don't have, at least to the same extent as martial arts. I think this second type of person may become almost TOO concerned with history and lineage, to the point that they might even leave the system if they become dissatisfied with what they learn about our history.

So I really feel like I see both points of view. And I really don't blame people for wanting more, just like I don't blame the guy who doesn't worry about history and lineage. I just feel like it's a logical disconnect to presume that lineage becomes unimportant because it won't save you in a fight - of course it won't save you in a fight, but again, and I can only speak for myself and those I've been close enough to, but guys who want to stomp me are pretty few and far between. I'm too nice to stomp :p But I think it does follow that since we don't train to survive the rare fight, we train because it's enjoyable, and tradition and history are part of that enjoyment for a large percentage of practitioners, you can't really blame them for wanting to know.

I agree with this 100% and would only add that some feel like there's some marketing dishonesty that they would rather do without. If lineage is truly unimportant, then why market the lineage? Why have websites that talk about training like the monks of old? Bottom line is that I'd come to SD whether the marketing says that they train like the monks or that its an Idonesion-influenced, Shaolin-based martial art that is effective and gets you in incredible shape. Others here feel, arguably defensibly so, that the former approach (selling the direct Shaolin lineage) is slightly intellectually dishonest.

[Judge Pen]

I don't personally care about lineage as much as utility and I've never had any doubt that I was given what I asked for: great conditioning and applicable martial skill. And if the lineage is true or made up it doesn't change any of that.

But I do want to understand the origins of something that I've given 20 years of blood and sweat to (I've never cried, but I've felt like it a few times). If for no other reason it helps me put into context what I've learned and allows me to be a more effective advocate for an art I love to those that do cite lineage and history as important cornerstones to their arts. I want to undercut the arguments that the lineage is false then the art must be false as well. I can't cross hands with everyone (especially now that work/life has forced me into a lesser training mode than I would like) and not everyone can experience what I have experienced with an open mind so one of my largest assets is to be a diplomat for the art and discuss it rationally with the more skeptical (and sometimes immature and irrational as well).

[punchdrunk]

If your looking into the origins of your system, you could look for similarities in the forms from related styles. I am not an SD person but I would compare your ba gua and tai chi forms with other known families and systems to look for similarities and differences. Also when you learn say ba qua (as an ex.) do you learn different partner drills and exercises, principles and theories, conditioning and stances and movement, weapons etc. Are there any common grounds with other well known lineages? that sounds like enjoyable research for any systems advanced students to me. I wouldn't suggest sharing your results until they are pretty concrete or you have gone over them with your teacher, otherwise your just spreading gossip! Best of luck wherever your path leads you, I have never experienced SD but I am curious how the system is arranged and lurk this thread to get a little glimpse.

[goju]

lol you guys are trying so hard to convince yourselves your actually learning a legit style

[tattooedmonk]

lol you guys are trying so hard to convince yourselves your actually learning a legit styleAren't tiger ,mantis , fist of hua, pakua , tai chi, hsing ie, etc. legitimate styles/ systems ? What constitutes a REAL style to you???






























Stop smoking crack , please!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

If your looking into the origins of your system, you could look for similarities in the forms from related styles. I am not an SD person but I would compare your ba gua and tai chi forms with other known families and systems to look for similarities and differences. Also when you learn say ba qua (as an ex.) do you learn different partner drills and exercises, principles and theories, conditioning and stances and movement, weapons etc. Are there any common grounds with other well known lineages? that sounds like enjoyable research for any systems advanced students to me. I wouldn't suggest sharing your results until they are pretty concrete or you have gone over them with your teacher, otherwise your just spreading gossip! Best of luck wherever your path leads you, I have never experienced SD but I am curious how the system is arranged and lurk this thread to get a little glimpse.Plain and simple ,In my opinion, the basics of SD ( up to brown belt ) is like every other CMA/ MA system out there , however once you get beyond this point, SD takes you into a whole new world.

[punchdrunk]

So have you done that kind of research? I'm not asking your results unless you've discussed them with your teacher, but have you tried to find the source of the different forms? discussing your tiger crane form with a Hung gar stylist, or seeing if your 5 animal forms resemble Choy Lay Fut or Hung gar or whatever else could be interesting. I know I've found the similarities and differences between Southern kung fu systems very enjoyable and really makes me consider how the systems curriculums are organised and designed. Anyway I'll go back to lurking but thanx for sharing guys.

[sha0lin1]

Holy crap, I just spent the last hour typing a response to this thread and when I went to submit my reply it gave me an error message and lost the whole **** thing. Well, I don't have an hour to spend now I will have to speak up on this subject later, stay tuned.

[goju]

yes thoser are legitamate names of styles but what does that mean
its the art being taught not the name that determines wether its legit

so they just bs you until you get your brown then they show you actuall shaolin lol
so what is everything before that? just made up?

[tattooedmonk]

So have you done that kind of research? I'm not asking your results unless you've discussed them with your teacher, but have you tried to find the source of the different forms? discussing your tiger crane form with a Hung gar stylist, or seeing if your 5 animal forms resemble Choy Lay Fut or Hung gar or whatever else could be interesting. I know I've found the similarities and differences between Southern kung fu systems very enjoyable and really makes me consider how the systems curriculums are organised and designed. Anyway I'll go back to lurking but thanx for sharing guys.Yes , I have. The forms, the training and conditioning are essentially the same. Something about going to Indonesia and not Hong Kong changed the flavor a little bit.It's all the same except for the uniforms and the terminology sometimes used and the fact that SD is definately a HARD style compared to the way I have seen most people practice and teach the same material.

[tattooedmonk]

yes thoser are legitamate names of styles but what does that mean
its the art being taught not the name that determines wether its legit

so they just bs you until you get your brown then they show you actuall shaolin lol
so what is everything before that? just made up?What level did you get up to in SD / CSC??

Thats not what I said. Its not just cut and dry as you think. Because you are unhappy does not mean that I am happy. I believe that is refered to as a logical fallacy.

What I am saying is that the basics are the basics, period. There might be slight variations , however a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick and a stance is a stance no matter if you say it in chinese, japanese or fuk-u-anese.

If you use the right area of contact, the proper bio mechanics , range of motion, etc. then that will determine as to whether it is useful or not.

Your views on this subject are all @$$ backwards.

I would say I am not impressed by your pics . A balerina can do that . What I want , and I am sure most people want, is to see is your training and fighting.

Until then I think you should have a cup of STFU!!!

[goju]

i got up to green in a about three months i spared my self the embarassment of getting by brown and left

uh huh sure they are not impressive i could post anything of myself preforming and no matter what you sd guys on here would try to make some bs up about it and then not post any of your own lol

[tattooedmonk]

i got up to green in a about three months i spared my self the embarassment of getting by brown and left

uh huh sure they are not impressive i could post anything of myself preforming and no matter what you sd guys on here would try to make some bs up about it and then not post any of your own lolFirst off, whether you have years of experience or no experience at all I would not allow you to get to green belt in 3 months. Just because you can walk through and/ or remember the material does not mean you should test . Most schools would rather quantity rather than quality.It's about the art not the money to me.This is a big reason why more and more people are going towards MMA. Its all about the training and conditioning.
Every student I have spends 6 months or more at each belt level below brown belt and must be able to perform ALL lower belt material on both sides, brown belt levels take 3 years.........ETC.

You must train with reality for it to become reality.

[goju]

well handing out belts seems to be the norm for the schools
i think six moths is still way to short

[tattooedmonk]

well handing out belts seems to be the norm for the schools
i think six moths is still way to short I agree. like I said 6 months or more. If you do it for longer than that it is ok, however, most student will not stick around unless they are advancing in some way. With the proper training and conditioning in 6 months you should be able to do the white belt material without thinking about it. The same holds true for the yellow, blue and green belt material minus the forms.

Most are lucky to get a brown belt from me. I would rather have great lower belts than $h!tty upper belts. I am independant and not associated with SD or CSC organizations I have changed the format and the progression of the material ,slightly, to suit my needs.( Example , white belt material is punches, kick, blocks , stances, as well as, conditioning, stretching. I teach no forms until brown belt except I do teach one form a month for an additional charge) And to avoid any legal ramifications. I do what needs to be done to make sure that my students are not dilusional about their level or skill.

[kwaichang]

Green belt eh?? What embarrasement would there be with Brown belt level. Unless you couldnt do it and messed up. Most people make an excuse for QUITTING. I am too old , I dont have time, My wife/husband wont let me, or I dont want to perform in front of people, or the style doesnt have a verifiable history by written empirical evidence,hahahaha. So I also know from experience that "people who can do; those who cant dont, or do something simpler and easier". Most people are basically lazy and quit. So Go Ju I feel you probably are right you would have been embarrased and dont have the desire to perform all the HUa's Long Fist and Tang Lang Chien along with 3 weapons for 4th BB. Thats alot to remember and perform physically. You have to have strong Kung Fu for that. KC:eek:

[goju]

oh yes because everybody knows the tang lang sd form is so hard to preform lol god the hours of labour you must go throught o master such a feat the grueling training the blood the sweat the tears...
oh wait that stiff americanized looking karate form that looks nothing like praying mantis? ohhhhhhhhh thaaaaaaaat never mind lol
i vcould just easily say that your lazy and too incompetant to preform proper kung fu thats why you stick with a scam like sd. so while your sitting around with your freinds you can brag about how your a kung fu master whos kicks can cut people in half lol

face it mate you dont have it in you to be areal martial artist you know sds not for real you just dont want to put the hard work into learing a authenitc style
so your conent with your hour and half class three times a week learning what ever it is you want yo call that stuff

[godzillakungfu]

I agree. like I said 6 months or more. If you do it for longer than that it is ok, however, most student will not stick around unless they are advancing in some way. With the proper training and conditioning in 6 months you should be able to do the white belt material without thinking about it. The same holds true for the yellow, blue and green belt material minus the forms.

Most are lucky to get a brown belt from me. I would rather have great lower belts than $h!tty upper belts. I am independant and not associated with SD or CSC organizations I have changed the format and the progression of the material ,slightly, to suit my needs.( Example , white belt material is punches, kick, blocks , stances, as well as, conditioning, stretching. I teach no forms until brown belt except I do teach one form a month for an additional charge) And to avoid any legal ramifications. I do what needs to be done to make sure that my students are not dilusional about their level or skill.PM incoming.

[goju]

and i quit because my a payment was due i payed for three months prior to joining to save money when the three months were up i figured flushing my money down the toilet would be a better alternative not suprising no one that was there with me at csc stayed either

funy how a schoo like that has such a high drop out rate for being such a quality place no?

[kwaichang]

Im sure you have it in you , hahahah. KC

[tattooedmonk]

oh yes because everybody knows the tang lang sd form is so hard to preform lol god the hours of labour you must go throught o master such a feat the grueling training the blood the sweat the tears...
oh wait that stiff americanized looking karate form that looks nothing like praying mantis? ohhhhhhhhh thaaaaaaaat never mind lol
i vcould just easily say that your lazy and too incompetant to preform proper kung fu thats why you stick with a scam like sd. so while your sitting around with your freinds you can brag about how your a kung fu master whos kicks can cut people in half lol

face it mate you dont have it in you to be areal martial artist you know sds not for real you just dont want to put the hard work into learing a authenitc style
so your conent with your hour and half class three times a week learning what ever it is you want yo call that stuffDid you learn the SD Tang Lang form for Black Belt level??If it doesnt look like praying mantis then you have been watching and following the wrong people. It is a very basci form yes , but it does give you all the basics movement patterns and tools you need to further your study in PM.

You know that once you learn the material it is your responsiblity to perfect it and maintain it. The school is just a place to learn the material, IMHO. I see you as just a spoiled brat kid who didnt get what he wanted and now is throwing a tempertantrum.

[goju]

id like to see some pics of you demonstrating this hua fist form really i woul i want to be dazzled with your martial skill
oh wait as usual your all talk and no action :)

[goju]

Did you learn the SD Tang Lang form for Black Belt level??If it doesnt look like praying mantis then you have been watching and following the wrong people. It is a very basci form yes , but it does give you all the basics movement patterns and tools you need to further your study in PM.

You know that once you learn the material it is your responsiblity to perfect it and maintain it. The school is just a place to learn the material, IMHO. I see you as just a spoiled brat kid who didnt get what he wanted and now is throwing a tempertantrum.
actually being with the standards of sd i barely practiced the forms and they still passed me
and yes ive seen the form like the other sd forms looks made up

how am i throwing a tantrum i just posted my experience with sd and all you guys got your panties in abunch
and yes i didnt get what i wanted quality instruction or an authentic style

[tattooedmonk]

actually being with the standards of sd i barely practiced the forms and they still passed me
and yes ive seen the form like the other sd forms looks made up

how am i throwing a tantrum i just posted my experience with sd and all you guys got your panties in abunch
and yes i didnt get what i wanted quality instruction or an authentic style Your experience is not unique. This is the problem with people who go into something with preconceived ideas of what is and what is not. So what if other people are passing you and can not do it as well as you do, are you there for you or for them ?? Remember the competition is not with others it is within yourself. My first teacher let everyone else test for each level up to brown belt months before I did ,even though I was way better that everyone else. I could learn the material in a day( and often times did because of work and school.)He showed me that I needed to stop concerning myself with what everyone else was doing and start focusing on what I was doing. This removed a blockage in my thinking and changed the way I looked at ALL things a great deal. You know I learned the green belt material in a weekend, came back two weeks later, tested for brown belt and tested 3 -4 points ahead of everyone else at almost everyother level up to black.I remember that weekend ,it was GMT's first test/ seminars here in Calif.

[punchdrunk]

Is this part of your system's mantis form? Does it resemble any other mantis forms from any other systems to your knowlegde?

[kwaichang]

well said TTM , I was refering to the aerobic conditioning needed to perform the 4 hUAS , Mod Hua , Chang Chien , Budha Fist and the 3 weapons forms needed for 4th He doesnt have the Kung necessary to complete it. Heck didnt even pass beyond Green. Then complains about teachers and the curriculum as an excuse for quitting. If one quits they are still a quitter. KC

[kwaichang]

I admit that TLChien doesnt look Mantisie but I was referring more to the aerobic capacity needed , note last post. KC

[goju]

and you know this how ive seen the forms preformed that you mention and dont see any exceedingly difficult moves in them in fact hey are just basic forms at best
if you honestly think they are demanding forms you really need to watch some proper shaolin demonstrations
and arent you the one with the back injury? lol yes im sure your quite the pinnacle of health after all if you say so it must be true!youve just never provided a shred of proof you can do anything your talking about :)

[kwaichang]

I have nothing to prove to you or any one. and if you think the longfist and Hua's are basic you are more of a joke than I realised. KC

[goju]

i said what is shown at sd is basic and unimpressive and dosnt require any high level of strength concentration or stamina just basic american karate esque looking forms if they wer so hard to know sd wouldnt have as many blackbelts now would they

[goju]

I have nothing to prove to you or any one. and if you think the longfist and Hua's are basic you are more of a joke than I realised. KC

actually you should you talk abig game with your supposed kicks that could cut people in half and the unique flexibilty to go beyond the full spilts your supposed to posess

[tattooedmonk]

Is this part of your system's mantis form? Does it resemble any other mantis forms from any other systems to your knowlegde?It is one of the many and yes it does have the same tools, techniques and mechanics that other forms of PM have in them. Depending on who is performing them.:eek::D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

well said TTM , I was refering to the aerobic conditioning needed to perform the 4 hUAS , Mod Hua , Chang Chien , Budha Fist and the 3 weapons forms needed for 4th He doesnt have the Kung necessary to complete it. Heck didnt even pass beyond Green. Then complains about teachers and the curriculum as an excuse for quitting. If one quits they are still a quitter. KC I picked out that one( Tang Lang Chien) based on Goju's comments. I agree about his Kung Fu, one word "TROLL". Most likely he was never a student and only picked up his knowledge off of the internet.

[tattooedmonk]

I have nothing to prove to you or any one. and if you think the longfist and Hua's are basic you are more of a joke than I realised. KC He has no idea!!I challenge anyone to do the First Road of Hua let alone all of them together at one time and say it is basic . He doesn't even know them anyway.He is just goading you , cut him loose . I feel how you do about this guy, but I have wasted too much time with him already.

[tattooedmonk]

i said what is shown at sd is basic and unimpressive and dosnt require any high level of strength concentration or stamina just basic american karate esque looking forms if they wer so hard to know sd wouldnt have as many blackbelts now would theyMaybe from what you saw . Green Belt?? HAHAHAHAHAH You saw nothing , or might as well have. Not everyone does martial arts to become a bad ass fighter. Everyone does it for their own reasons.

[tattooedmonk]

and you know this how ive seen the forms preformed that you mention and dont see any exceedingly difficult moves in them in fact hey are just basic forms at best
if you honestly think they are demanding forms you really need to watch some proper shaolin demonstrations
and arent you the one with the back injury? lol yes im sure your quite the pinnacle of health after all if you say so it must be true!youve just never provided a shred of proof you can do anything your talking about :) What did you see?? Who performed them ?/ People who just learned them?? A black belt who learned an advanced form???You have yet to show us your skill level either. @$$ wipe. What is a difficult move to you ??It looks like spelling , reading and comprehension are difficult for you.

[tattooedmonk]

Doctors , lawyers, professors, engineers ( what some of the top guys in SD are) are fooled and are spending 30-40 years doing something that is not real, just what is not real about SD?? If I cee the uniforms,history or anything that is non intrinsic to the question or the material on the whole ,then it is invalid.

[goju]

so because someones adoctor lawyer engineer etc etc it must mean they are knowledgeable about what is good kung fu and what isnt

shakes head lol god you sd guys

um lets see what not real the history the fact that the forms dont resemble kung fu in the least the fact that they cant prove its shaolin

shall i go on dear boy?

[goju]

Maybe from what you saw . Green Belt?? HAHAHAHAHAH You saw nothing , or might as well have. Not everyone does martial arts to become a bad ass fighter. Everyone does it for their own reasons.

what i saw? well i saw the black belts frequently loose sparring matches against me and other beggining students countless times
and no cut al the mytical kwai chia kang crap kung fu is for nothing else besides fighting it is not used to give you peace of mind blah blah or whatever else

[goju]

I picked out that one( Tang Lang Chien) based on Goju's comments. I agree about his Kung Fu, one word "TROLL". Most likely he was never a student and only picked up his knowledge off of the internet.

lol a student of one of the biggest fraud school in history is accusing somebody else of being a lair

oh but wait you changed the material right oh yeah i forgot you broke away from the sd schools and you have stricter guidelines for giving belts and showing forms
yeah arent you special now

a scams a scam no matter how you look at it you can break away from sd but your still teaching their mumbo jumbo and tricking honest folks out of their money :)

[goju]

and why would i want to preform hua fist im a karate stylist thats like me asking you do do sanseiru whats the point you dont know it why would you?

[tattooedmonk]

so because someones adoctor lawyer engineer etc etc it must mean they are knowledgeable about what is good kung fu and what isnt

shakes head lol god you sd guys

um lets see what not real the history the fact that the forms dont resemble kung fu in the least the fact that they cant prove its shaolin

shall i go on dear boy?Most people that are educated are less likely to be swindled or dupped into doing something that is not real , true or intrinsic. Forms are forms . If you do them soft then they look more like kung fu:rolleyes: and if the are done hard then they are karate:rolleyes:

Shaolin is a philosophy, not a uniform , forms or the way you perfom them. So there is nothing to porve . Master The` has the spirit of Shaolin in the way he teaches and lives his life, that is good enough form me. anyone that thinks that shaolin is forms or the way you perfom them is only looking at the surface, the external.

[tattooedmonk]

what i saw? well i saw the black belts frequently loose sparring matches against me and other beggining students countless times
and no cut al the mytical kwai chia kang crap kung fu is for nothing else besides fighting it is not used to give you peace of mind blah blah or whatever elseAll we have is your words. which I do not believe.

[goju]

Most people that are educated are less likely to be swindled or dupped into doing something that is not real , true or intrinsic. Forms are forms . If you do them soft then they look more like kung fu:rolleyes: and if the are done hard then they are karate:rolleyes:

Shaolin is a philosophy, not a uniform , forms or the way you perfom them. So there is nothing to porve . Master The` has the spirit of Shaolin in the way he teaches and lives his life, that is good enough form me. anyone that thinks that shaolin is forms or the way you perfom them is only looking at the surface, the external.

yes a doctor is educted when it comes to medicine you simpleton not martial arts

a doctor walking into a martial arts school for the first time is just aslikely to be dupped as someone who flips burgers thus making your point moot

yes im sure makinmg up a style and fooling thousands of people is the shaolin way allright

[tattooedmonk]

lol a student of one of the biggest fraud school in history is accusing somebody else of being a lair

oh but wait you changed the material right oh yeah i forgot you broke away from the sd schools and you have stricter guidelines for giving belts and showing forms
yeah arent you special now

a scams a scam no matter how you look at it you can break away from sd but your still teaching their mumbo jumbo and tricking honest folks out of their money :) The spelling is L-I-A-R.

I never said I was special just different.
Who is being scammed?? and where?? file a report with the BBB.

I teach CMA period. Where I got them from is multiple sources . Many of the trditional forms found in SD are found in other schools , which also are called authentic Shaolin schools.

[goju]

oh so you teach a mish mash of this and that got ya
i allready proved my skill like that guy with the plum flower posts i could tell he was good just by looking at the photo of him doing a side kick
it takes a high level of balance and coordination in order to hold a kick that high long enough for someone to snap a pic
your sad excuse that even a ballerina could do that just proves my point about you guys at sd your delusional and when i ask for pics of you the only one with the bullocks to do so was penn

and im makinga video of me working out and training tomoorow when i have it done anybody that wants to see it let me know and ill mail it to them

[tattooedmonk]

yes a doctor is educted when it comes to medicine you simpleton not martial arts

a doctor walking into a martial arts school for the first time is just aslikely to be dupped as someone who flips burgers thus making your point moot

yes im sure makinmg up a style and fooling thousands of people is the shaolin way allright And what do you need to know to be a doctor?? do you know what doctor even means?? You see doctors of medicine need to know all about the body anatomy , physiology, biomechanics and stuff like that . A doctor would know as to whether the movements and training was correct and benefitial based on what they saw.

I could go on and on with you however, there is no point argueing with a retard, it just makes me look like a retard too. I have been more than nice to you and answered your questions and yet you still have proven nothing about yourself , other than you are all talk and full of $h!t.

[tattooedmonk]

oh so you teach a mish mash of this and that got ya
i allready proved my skill like that guy with the plum flower posts i could tell he was good just by looking at the photo of him doing a side kick
it takes a high level of balance and coordination in order to hold a kick that high long enough for someone to snap a pic
your sad excuse that even a ballerina could do that just proves my point about you guys at sd your delusional and when i ask for pics of you the only one with the bullocks to do so was penn

and im makinga video of me working out and training tomoorow when i have it done anybody that wants to see it let me know and ill mail it to themthink what you want . I know what I know and I am satisfied with that . You are obviously not satisfied with what it is you know or you would not be here bashing other people and the styles or system in which they practice.

Put it on youtube.

[goju]

And what do you need to know to be a doctor?? do you know what doctor even means?? You see doctors of medicine need to know all about the body anatomy , physiology, biomechanics and stuff like that . A doctor would know as to whether the movements and training was correct and benefitial based on what they saw.

I could go on and on with you however, there is no point argueing with a retard, it just makes me look like a retard too. I have been more than nice to you and answered your questions and yet you still have proven nothing about yourself , other than you are all talk and full of $h!t.
oh no no your right a doctor knows everything about everything lol

[kwaichang]

So a 6 foot 2 inch 220 # guy beat a 150 # fresh black belt, Yeah I believe that. I think that may have happened. But did he defeat a seasoned BB with 10 -20 years in Sd I think, know not. As far as a mish mash you are the one wanting to do MMA which is a mish mash. Goju is a simple style derived from Okinawan Karate brought to Japan. TaeKwon Do is a drivation of TaeGun and Shotokan as taught to General Choi and taught as calastenics. You believe that what your uncle taught you is real Go Ju like Higaonna taught.??? Also you have trained what 5-6 years in an art other than Shaolin or Chinese MA and we are suppopsed to believe you know what you are talking about?? What a blooming Idiot you are. KC

[LFJ]

Shaolin is a philosophy, not a uniform , forms or the way you perfom them. So there is nothing to porve . Master The` has the spirit of Shaolin in the way he teaches and lives his life, that is good enough form me. anyone that thinks that shaolin is forms or the way you perfom them is only looking at the surface, the external.

you know how "true beauty is on the inside" is something only ugly people say..........

this is something only "shaolin" frauds say.

[goju]

think what you want . I know what I know and I am satisfied with that . You are obviously not satisfied with what it is you know or you would not be here bashing other people and the styles or system in which they practice.

Put it on youtube.
whos bashing other people and styles i just think sd sucks great big nuts
and i am quite satisfied with what i know thank you :)

[tattooedmonk]

sparring is not about winning or losing, it is about training. If you want to fight now that is something different. Never in my 15+ years of SD/ CSC was involved in a sparring match in which there was competition in which one person won and another person lost . Upper belts are supposed to go at the level of the lower belt they are sparring. SO NOW WE KNOW YOU ARE FULL OF $H!T AND A LIAR

[goju]

So a 6 foot 2 inch 220 # guy beat a 150 # fresh black belt, Yeah I believe that. I think that may have happened. But did he defeat a seasoned BB with 10 -20 years in Sd I think, know not. As far as a mish mash you are the one wanting to do MMA which is a mish mash. Goju is a simple style derived from Okinawan Karate brought to Japan. TaeKwon Do is a drivation of TaeGun and Shotokan as taught to General Choi and taught as calastenics. You believe that what your uncle taught you is real Go Ju like Higaonna taught.??? Also you have trained what 5-6 years in an art other than Shaolin or Chinese MA and we are suppopsed to believe you know what you are talking about?? What a blooming Idiot you are. KC

yes but again MMA IS a mish mash OF AUTHENTIC STYLES something that i cant say for sd

and whats this have to do with anything i know the history of goju and taekwondo stay on topic sonny

[tattooedmonk]

whos bashing other people and styles i just think sd sucks great big nuts
and i am quite satisfied with what i know thank you :)Just your opinion. I doubt it or else you wouldnt be here bashing others styles.

[goju]

So a 6 foot 2 inch 220 # guy beat a 150 # fresh black belt, Yeah I believe that. I think that may have happened. But did he defeat a seasoned BB with 10 -20 years in Sd I think, know not. As far as a mish mash you are the one wanting to do MMA which is a mish mash. Goju is a simple style derived from Okinawan Karate brought to Japan. TaeKwon Do is a drivation of TaeGun and Shotokan as taught to General Choi and taught as calastenics. You believe that what your uncle taught you is real Go Ju like Higaonna taught.??? Also you have trained what 5-6 years in an art other than Shaolin or Chinese MA and we are suppopsed to believe you know what you are talking about?? What a blooming Idiot you are. KC

and how are you any more credible wow your an old man golly you must know what your talking about because your old lol
good lord the excuse people have to make

[tattooedmonk]

oh no no your right a doctor knows everything about everything lolNo , but they do know about the sciences of the body , Doctor means universal knowledge. @$$wipe.

[goju]

Just your opinion. I doubt it or else you wouldnt be here bashing others styles.

what other styles have i bashed besides sd and ussd? most of my posts here arent even about wether i dislike or like something

[kwaichang]

Yeah now you know its history . So if your uncle did not learn from Higaonna then your Goju is a fraud as well. You havent even seen the SD Huas in most probability so Sonny boy get a life and do some training you spend all your time typing. So tell us about the BB you beat then KC

[goju]

No , but they do know about the sciences of the body , Doctor means universal knowledge. @$$wipe.
lol okay whatever you say
here that people if your going to join a school ask wether they have any doctors or professors or engineers there training thats the key to giving a school legitimacy lmao

[goju]

Yeah now you know its history . So if your uncle did not learn from Higaonna then your Goju is a fraud as well. You havent even seen the SD Huas in most probability so Sonny boy get a life and do some training you spend all your time typing. So tell us about the BB you beat then KC
how does that make him a fraud how many goju ryu masters didnt learn from higaaonna? you really need to stop huffing paint before you post here because your starting to not make any sense

highest level i beat was a third degree hed been there for i beleive three four years

[tattooedmonk]

you know how "true beauty is on the inside" is something only ugly people say..........

this is something only "shaolin" frauds say.I believe that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that what might be beautiful to one might not be beautiful to another. GMT is the GM of SD not all of shaolin . Only people that are shallow and have done no research what so ever would think or believe someone is a fraud based on outward appearances. You can say that to be shaolin you have to do certain forms and wear certain uniforms but quite frankly that just shows how ignorant people can be.

[tattooedmonk]

lol okay whatever you say
here that people if your going to join a school ask wether they have any doctors or professors or engineers there training thats the key to giving a school legitimacy lmao??? comprehendable english , please???

[goju]

lol yes shaolin is just a mystical force of the universe floating endlessly through time and space


sigh

[goju]

??? comprehendable english , please???

oh o course the typical sad flame everybody uses when they cany think of anything clever to say

hang on let me go back through all your posts here an correct your spelling and grammar errors we can trade back and forth for a few dozen pages lol

[kwaichang]

So you are bragging about beating a 3rd BB that had been there 3-4 years?? No wonder what a joke. And you base your opinion on this. You need to get out more. This is how it is suppose to work WB-BB 3-4 years 1-2BB 2 more years 2-3BB 3 more years. that is 9 years not 3. If you did beat him no wonder. also 3-4 BB 4 years 4-5 is 5 years that is 18 years of good training. I see where you are coming from but do you drive one car before you buy one. You probably do. KC

[tattooedmonk]

what other styles have i bashed besides sd and ussd? most of my posts here arent even about wether i dislike or like something
that is two. That is why I put the "S", you know to indicated that there is more than one. Get it?I do not care about USSD, they are who they are.

[goju]

so if a doctor comes on here and says sd is a fraud then its true then right?
im gonna be amused at the response from this

[tattooedmonk]

oh o course the typical sad flame everybody uses when they cany think of anything clever to say

hang on let me go back through all your posts here an correct your spelling and grammar errors we can trade back and forth for a few dozen pages lolno, I would like to comment on what you posted , making it so I can read and comprehend what you posted will make that easier.

[LFJ]

GMT is the GM of SD not all of shaolin .

but the problem is sd is not a part of shaolin at all.


Only people that are shallow and have done no research what so ever would think or believe someone is a fraud based on outward appearances. You can say that to be shaolin you have to do certain forms and wear certain uniforms but quite frankly that just shows how ignorant people can be.

ignorance is accepting anything as shaolin simply because it bears the name.

[tattooedmonk]

so if a doctor comes on here and says sd is a fraud then its true then right?
im gonna be amused at the response from thisNot what I said . what I said is that a doctor of medicine would know as to whether the training and conditioning was good for you or not based on evaluating the movements postures ,etc. these are things that are most important when determining as to whether something is useful or not.

[tattooedmonk]

but the problem is sd is not a part of shaolin at all.



ignorance is accepting anything as shaolin simply because it bears the name.
Shaolin meaning who, what or where??Have they ever said that they were affiliated with the Shaolin temples other than by the material that is practiced????? I never said I accepted it based on the name.

[kwaichang]

True ignorance is judgeing something without knowing it, and judgeing can also be ignorant in and of itself. Ever notice how Go Ju and others skirt the questions asked of him. He does so by calling names and being rude. So obvious. KC

[goju]

So you are bragging about beating a 3rd BB that had been there 3-4 years?? No wonder what a joke. And you base your opinion on this. You need to get out more. This is how it is suppose to work WB-BB 3-4 years 1-2BB 2 more years 2-3BB 3 more years. that is 9 years not 3. If you did beat him no wonder. also 3-4 BB 4 years 4-5 is 5 years that is 18 years of good training. I see where you are coming from but do you drive one car before you buy one. You probably do. KC

whats the diff youve been doing sd for how long and yourstill a joke
a third degree sd wont be any better when he gets his fifth same guy new belt bigger ego

[goju]

True ignorance is judgeing something without knowing it, and judgeing can also be ignorant in and of itself. Ever notice how Go Ju and others skirt the questions asked of him. He does so by calling names and being rude. So obvious. KC thank you dr spoc how articulate

really lol youve been calling me down because im young and saying you could cut me in half with your kicks but im the one whos resorting to name calling lmao okay

[tattooedmonk]

whats the diff youve been doing sd for how long and yourstill a joke
a third degree sd wont be any better when he gets his fifth same guy new belt bigger egoDo you know KC or anyone in the art personally?? If so, who?? I can name at least 5 people in SD who would wipe there @$$ with you and then flush you down the drain. You are a LIAR !!!let me spell that for you L-I-A-R and a TROLL , let me spell that one for you too, T-R-O-L-L

[goju]

lo whats with all the stupid "confuscious say" qotes lol
you know guys real shaolin monks dont go walking around acting that way dont you?

[kwaichang]

I know I am a Joke I have seen good . I dont care the true joke is you a warrior is known by the level of his opponent . You probably defeated a skinny little teenage BB. OOOOOOHH Im scared. As far as being a joke to you I guess I am most people are. You dont even respect yourself how can you be expected to respect others. What ever the style. I have trained under Master Nishiama of the JKA prior to his death. I have had excelent training . No one I have fought seriously ever called me a joke. Alot of fun perhaps. KC

[tattooedmonk]

thank you dr spoc how articulate

really lol youve been calling me down because im young and saying you could cut me in half with your kicks but im the one whos resorting to name calling lmao okayHOw old are you anyways ?? 10 11 12??? Name calling and stateing facts about someone are two different things . Know the difference.

[goju]

Do you know KC or anyone in the art personally?? If so, who?? I can name at least 5 people in SD who would wipe there @$$ with you and then flush you down the drain. You are a LIAR !!!let me spell that for you L-I-A-R and a TROLL , let me spell that one for you too, T-R-O-L-L

ewwwwwww wipe their ass with me what does that have to do with kung fu
dont know kc but i can smell bs off him all the way from colorado lol

thats was five years ago the only people i remember by name are the soards

[goju]

HOw old are you anyways ?? 10 11 12??? Name calling and stateing facts about someone are two different things . Know the difference.

settle down their find your dantien and breath in through the nose

[tattooedmonk]

lo whats with all the stupid "confuscious say" qotes lol
you know guys real shaolin monks dont go walking around acting that way dont you?I am not a monk nor is anyone I have ever known who practices Shaolin with the Do or not. Its funny how everyone thinks that to be shaolin you must be a monk and have learned from on. Oy vey:rolleyes::eek::D:cool:

[goju]

I know I am a Joke I have seen good . I dont care the true joke is you a warrior is known by the level of his opponent . You probably defeated a skinny little teenage BB. OOOOOOHH Im scared. As far as being a joke to you I guess I am most people are. You dont even respect yourself how can you be expected to respect others. What ever the style. I have trained under Master Nishiama of the JKA prior to his death. I have had excelent training . No one I have fought seriously ever called me a joke. Alot of fun perhaps. KC

what the hell is this about you ranting lunatic
no in fact the third degree bb was in his early thirties i beleive if i am correct i didnt see any teenage bb there mostly middle aged men and maybe one or two girls

[kwaichang]

You need to check your references if you think I am BS, boy. KC

[goju]

I am not a monk nor is anyone I have ever known who practices Shaolin with the Do or not. Its funny how everyone thinks that to be shaolin you must be a monk and have learned from on. Oy vey:rolleyes::eek::D:cool:

yes exactly and thats how you and kwai are acting wit h your silly qoutes

[tattooedmonk]

ewwwwwww wipe their ass with me what does that have to do with kung fu
dont know kc but i can smell bs off him all the way from colorado lol

thats was five years ago the only people i remember by name are the soards Means that they could do anything they wanted to you!!! yeah sure you can, chek you upper lip that might be where the smell is coming from. BULL$H!T. If you knew any of the real player of the art you would beable to name some people.

[kwaichang]

Well I must train , 2 regrets finding this forum and not taking more pics prior to my injury. To shut up wannabes like GoJu. KC

[tattooedmonk]

what the hell is this about you ranting lunatic
no in fact the third degree bb was in his early thirties i beleive if i am correct i didnt see any teenage bb there mostly middle aged men and maybe one or two girlsProve it!!! I want a name , date , time and the person location of residence etc. Until then all you doing is blowing hot air!!!

[tattooedmonk]

yes exactly and thats how you and kwai are acting wit h your silly qoutesHoly $H!t ,a post that was almost easy to read and comprehend. Personally I do not give a $h!t about you and what you say. I was bored and this passed sometime. I got a lot of PM out of these last couple of pages , thanks!!You can not substantiate anything you say.......so until then you are just a TROLL that is T-R-O-L-L!!

[tattooedmonk]

Well I must train , 2 regrets finding this forum and not taking more pics prior to my injury. To shut up wannabes like GoJu. KCEveryone that knows you has vouched for you , you have nothing to prove.

[tattooedmonk]

thank you dr spoc how articulate

really lol youve been calling me down because im young and saying you could cut me in half with your kicks but im the one whos resorting to name calling lmao okayActually, he quite educated and knows what he is talking about ,obviously you do not. Do you even know what is meant by cutting you in half with a kick????

[kwaichang]

WEll it started to rain , cant train outside. I looked up my post and the cutting in half was a rhetorical YOU. KC

[goju]

Means that they could do anything they wanted to you!!! yeah sure you can, chek you upper lip that might be where the smell is coming from. BULL$H!T. If you knew any of the real player of the art you would beable to name some people.

whats a real player suppose to qualify as according to you? and i told you thats was five years ago you honestly expect me to remember those people there lol
and how would you know them to begin with?

[goju]

Well I must train , 2 regrets finding this forum and not taking more pics prior to my injury. To shut up wannabes like GoJu. KCuh huh keep using the back injury as an excuse
your missmissed as being anything because of your inceridibly stupid cutting me in half with a kick comment once you said that i knew you were a fraud

[goju]

Actually, he quite educated and knows what he is talking about ,obviously you do not. Do you even know what is meant by cutting you in half with a kick????

is he a doctor lol

[goju]

Prove it!!! I want a name , date , time and the person location of residence etc. Until then all you doing is blowing hot air!!!

okay wanna come over to my place i have my time machine in my garagebring your camera

[goju]

You need to check your references if you think I am BS, boy. KCoh yeah my apologies for not knowing who you are lol
after all your......


um......

[kwaichang]

OK Ill finish it for you "your superior" KC

[kwaichang]

would have said your daddy but wouldnt claim you if I fathered you. BTW I should be back in shape in about 6 months when are you moving to North Carolina Go JU Ill look you up, or down. KC

[goju]

yes im going to go to north carolina to spar with some old man who practices sd lol
thats what i do have confrontation with people on ma forums then fly down and fight them

sheeesh

[LFJ]

Have they ever said that they were affiliated with the Shaolin temples other than by the material that is practiced????? I never said I accepted it based on the name.

on what then?
anything half-way verifiable?

[tattooedmonk]

on what then?
anything half-way verifiable?How about answering my questions first?? I noticed that you left out that part. I have been nice to you as well but there comes a point where I am not going to put up with things being one sided. Now answer my questions and I will answer yours.

[goju]

why all you sd guys do is circle talk youve never answered any questions fully about the japanese names uniforms etcetcetc

[tattooedmonk]

whats a real player suppose to qualify as according to you? and i told you thats was five years ago you honestly expect me to remember those people there lol
and how would you know them to begin with?Five years ago , HUH?? Yes , I do!!
#1. If it was five years ago, why are you still so hung up on the fact that you didnt get what you wanted out of it ,feel the need to be immature about it and talk A LOT of nonsense about it?? CUT IT LOOSE ALREADY!!!

#2.If you remembered that it was five years ago , that the person was a 3rd black, that they were in there thirties and the fact that you say you beat them in a sparring match Etc. I should be ableto expect,with in reason, that you would remember someone's name. Based just on the fact that you remembered that much about it!!!!

#3. I have been doing SD since 1990, I had to go to Denver to pass in levels past black belt, spent summer vacations in Colorado Springs , took the seminars in Denver and Boulder when Master Sin was in town, not failing to mention I know a few people in the general area in which you live.


So, what now BEEEAAAATTTTCCHH??

[LFJ]

How about answering my questions first?? I noticed that you left out that part. I have been nice to you as well but there comes a point where I am not going to put up with things being one sided. Now answer my questions and I will answer yours.

i thought that was understood, since you mentioned shaolin temple"s" and sd being a part of shaolin, and affiliated with the shaolin temple"s" through their material. but fair enough....


Shaolin meaning who, what or where??Have they ever said that they were affiliated with the Shaolin temples other than by the material that is practiced????? I never said I accepted it based on the name.

obviously, shaolin is not restricted to the songshan shaolin monastery, its monks, or even its current material. however, other styles that have spread throughout china and elsewhere that can be called "shaolin" even though they may differ quite a bit from region to region depending on the styles of the locals, are at least traceable to the songshan shaolin monastery.

what sd does is not at all related to what is or was practiced by songshan shaolin monastery masters, and is not traceable, unlike many styles in china that have now changed quite a bit from what was and is now taught and practiced at the monastery.

thats the difference. if sd can be said to be a part of shaolin, or affiliated with the monastery through material, those statements must be verifiable. they arent, and nothing from sd remotely resembles anything from songshan in any time period.

therefore, there is no logical reason to believe sd history or material being related to shaolin. hence, i say you believe it based on sd simply bearing the shaolin name. people can say whatever they want, knowing that since its not verifiable, they will always have infinite loopholes.

[tattooedmonk]

why all you sd guys do is circle talk youve never answered any questions fully about the japanese names uniforms etcetcetc
MY Name is GOJU and I can not read and comprehend .



Personally I wear it because it works better than anything else. Why do you??






GIVE IT UP ALREADY!!!!

[goju]

look at what i posted i gave vague descriptions goof ball i he looked in his thirties didnt ask him to be honest but obvioisly he wasnt a teen i dont remeber what his favorite color was eithe ror wether he liked holding hands and long windy walks

and how am i suppose to give out names you sd guys are so well known in the ma community just mentioning a name will give somebody credit? lmao
yes and in 1990 i was three years old you fool

So, what now BEEEAAAATTTTCCHH??[/QUOTE]

[goju]

MY Name is GOJU and I can not read and comprehend .



Personally I wear it because it works better than anything else. Why do you??






"GIVE IT UP ALREADY!!!!"
yes you should take your own advice your going to get constipated with such anger

[tattooedmonk]

i thought that was understood, since you mentioned shaolin temple"s" and sd being a part of shaolin, and affiliated with the shaolin temple"s" through their material. but fair enough....



obviously, shaolin is not restricted to the songshan shaolin monastery, its monks, or even its current material. however, other styles that have spread throughout china and elsewhere that can be called "shaolin" even though they may differ quite a bit from region to region depending on the styles of the locals, are at least traceable to the songshan shaolin monastery.

what sd does is not at all related to what is or was practiced by songshan shaolin monastery masters, and is not traceable, unlike many styles in china that have now changed quite a bit from what was and is now taught and practiced at the monastery.

thats the difference. if sd can be said to be a part of shaolin, or affiliated with the monastery through material, those statements must be verifiable. they arent, and nothing from sd remotely resembles anything from songshan in any time period.

therefore, there is no logical reason to believe sd history or material being related to shaolin. hence, i say you believe it based on sd simply bearing the shaolin name. people can say whatever they want, knowing that since its not verifiable, they will always have infinite loopholes.Lets be clear and concise as to what we are actually taking about. If you want to have a specific conversation and do not want to have a general conversation about this , I believe that we must establish some rules, guidelines as well as establish what is universally known, acceptable and verifiable in regards to the subject. Agreed ?? Until then .......

[tattooedmonk]

........... in 1990 i was three years old you fool

Exactly!!!!! finally the answer to a question!!!!

[goju]

oh gawd i feel another lecture coming on about how shaolin do is a way of life and attitude than an actual style lol

[tattooedmonk]

why do you wear the japanese uniforms??? etcetcetc
Like I said, it is better than anything else. along with a few other reasons.

the japanese terminolgy ? Actually I teach it in Japanese, chinese and english ,

Hopefully soon I will get a better understanding of how to say it in spanish.along with afew other reasons

So why do you use them??

[goju]

i dont im an okinawan stylist remember not japanese

[tattooedmonk]

oh gawd i feel another lecture coming on about how shaolin do is a way of life and attitude than an actual style lol why would you think that?? What is Shaolin by your definiton??

[tattooedmonk]

i dont im an okinawan stylist remember not japanese so you do not wear a gi?? What dialect or language do you use???

[LFJ]

Lets be clear and concise as to what we are actually taking about. If you want to have a specific conversation and do not want to have a general conversation about this , I believe that we must establish some rules, guidelines as well as establish what is universally known, acceptable and verifiable in regards to the subject. Agreed ?? Until then .......

was i not?

[goju]

i usually just train in sweats or gi pants without a shirt
i call aside kick a side kicka punch a punch
the okinawans are very casual with how they teach they didnt use to have names for any of the kata or moves until much later

[tattooedmonk]

was i not? Enh??:D . I would like to have a respectful and mature debate about this, without name calling or childish BS.
I woud like us to agree on what sources are great, good, ok , fair and bad.
If we can not agree and it is taking away from the point of the debate that we skip it and move on. Also, there should be nothing brought in to the debate that is irrelavent or is non-intrinsic to the debate..... can you think of anything else???

[tattooedmonk]

i usually just train in sweats or gi pants without a shirt
i call aside kick a side kicka punch a punch
the okinawans are very casual with how they teach they didnt use to have names for any of the kata or moves until much laterInteresting. I used to do Okinawa Te. They were very strict about everything from what I remember. How long have you been studying??? Who is your teacher?? Do you study in Denver?

[kwaichang]

Chojun Miyagi was the founder of GO JU I think Go JU learned from Mr Miyagi on the Karate Kid movie hey Go Ju are you Ralph Macchio? If you are that good I fear you greatly. Still practicing the drum technique KC

[LFJ]

Enh??:D . I would like to have a respectful and mature debate about this, without name calling or childish BS.
I woud like us to agree on what sources are great, good, ok , fair and bad.
If we can not agree and it is taking away from the point of the debate that we skip it and move on. Also, there should be nothing brought in to the debate that is irrelavent or is non-intrinsic to the debate..... can you think of anything else???

i'm not part of your argument with goju. so i dont know what you're talking about.

would you like to simply address the points made, or not?

[Judge Pen]

oh so you teach a mish mash of this and that got ya
i allready proved my skill like that guy with the plum flower posts i could tell he was good just by looking at the photo of him doing a side kick
it takes a high level of balance and coordination in order to hold a kick that high long enough for someone to snap a pic
your sad excuse that even a ballerina could do that just proves my point about you guys at sd your delusional and when i ask for pics of you the only one with the bullocks to do so was penn

and im makinga video of me working out and training tomoorow when i have it done anybody that wants to see it let me know and ill mail it to them

Please mail to me. As for SD forms dod not require strength, the photos I posted included me doing a one-leg squat. Granted that's not an amazing feat of skill, but it does take a bit of strength and balance. My teacher trains this form by doing 5 sets of 10 on each leg. That is impressive to me, but maybe I'm easily impressed.

[Judge Pen]

why all you sd guys do is circle talk youve never answered any questions fully about the japanese names uniforms etcetcetc

It has been answered ad naseum in this thread. Let me sum it up: It was mixed into the terminology in Indonesia because of the cultural influences and melting-pot nature of what was going on there in the early to mid 1900s and also because that terminology was more accepted and understood to American (especially in Ky) during the 1960s. If anything Sin The could be accused of taking advantage of the term karate as a marketing ploy more than shaolin. At least initially. My understanding is that he called it shaolin do karate initially. Karate because that's what people called any Asian martial art at the time (and many still do).

The problem is that you will accept no other explanination other than "It's false."

[Judge Pen]

i usually just train in sweats or gi pants without a shirt


That's very Patrick Swayze of you. Have you seen Roadhouse?

[tattooedmonk]

i'm not part of your argument with goju. so i dont know what you're talking about.

would you like to simply address the points made, or not?I know your not. I just thought that if we were going to have a debate about it that we should do so like educated adults, is that too much to ask??

[tattooedmonk]

That's very Patrick Swayze of you. Have you seen Roadhouse?LMAO!!!NOw thats funny!!!

[tattooedmonk]

:rolleyes:
Chojun Miyagi was the founder of GO JU I think Go JU learned from Mr Miyagi on the Karate Kid movie hey Go Ju are you Ralph Macchio? If you are that good I fear you greatly. Still practicing the drum technique KCNow thats even funnier!!!

[goju]

Interesting. I used to do Okinawa Te. They were very strict about everything from what I remember. How long have you been studying??? Who is your teacher?? Do you study in Denver?
yes and theres a great difference between modern karate and traditional karate
tradtionally karate had no names for its kata moves etcetc you simply shut up and learned and when you were done learning you one tecnique you were given another one
karate began to be modernized when the okinawans wanted to introduce it to japan . originally the japanese didnt get krate so the okinawans modified it for them began adopting japanese names for their moves and katas and began putting their knowledge into books somethin that was unheard of before

as isaid before i learned from my uncle who learned from a akorean master named sung cho where sung cho learned his taekwondo and goju i have no idea

[goju]

Chojun Miyagi was the founder of GO JU I think Go JU learned from Mr Miyagi on the Karate Kid movie hey Go Ju are you Ralph Macchio? If you are that good I fear you greatly. Still practicing the drum technique KC

uh huh its funny you mentioned the karate kid i recall a issue of kung fu tai chi when they had sin demonstrating hua fist lol and all he kept showing was that silly crane stance apparently thats all there is to that form if we go by him

[goju]

That's very Patrick Swayze of you. Have you seen Roadhouse?

lol ive wanted to but i always miss it when its on!

[goju]

I know your not. I just thought that if we were going to have a debate about it that we should do so like educated adults, is that too much to ask??

oh yes claiming you no more because your an old man and you screaming LIAR!!!! every other word real adult

[tattooedmonk]

yes and theres a great difference between modern karate and traditional karate
tradtionally karate had no names for its kata moves etcetc you simply shut up and learned and when you were done learning you one tecnique you were given another one
karate began to be modernized when the okinawans wanted to introduce it to japan . originally the japanese didnt get krate so the okinawans modified it for them began adopting japanese names for their moves and katas and began putting their knowledge into books somethin that was unheard of before

as isaid before i learned from my uncle who learned from a akorean master named sung cho where sung cho learned his taekwondo and goju i have no ideaI see, interesting. So you are learning from your uncle or you learned what you know from your uncle?? Korean , Okinawan Karate master? Interesting

[Judge Pen]

i learned from my uncle who learned from a akorean master named sung cho where sung cho learned his taekwondo and goju i have no idea

So your lineage is just as unverifiable as SD's.

[tattooedmonk]

oh yes claiming you no more because your an old man and you screaming LIAR!!!! every other word real adult where did I say I knew more?/ when was I screaming anything?? I was typing in capital letters. It was not every other word. If you want to go back to early yesterday that is fine but I will be no part of it . If you want to go back to how we were talkning last nigh then I will engage in the conversation. Its up to you!!

[goju]

my unlce trained under cho then he trained me its not suprising cho was an okiniwan stylist as well a lot of koreans masters no a chinese style or an okinawan one for example praying mantis kung fu is real big down there in korea

[Judge Pen]

uh huh its funny you mentioned the karate kid i recall a issue of kung fu tai chi when they had sin demonstrating hua fist lol and all he kept showing was that silly crane stance apparently thats all there is to that form if we go by him

Well there's a lot more to it than that, but you know everything else already, so why should we throw pearls to swine.

You should really check out Roadhouse. Great cheesy 80's flick.

[goju]

where did I say I knew more?/ when was I screaming anything?? I was typing in capital letters. It was not every other word. If you want to go back to early yesterday that is fine but I will be no part of it . If you want to go back to how we were talkning last nigh then I will engage in the conversation. Its up to you!!

i was taking about kwai using his pathetic im older i know more excuse you ninny not you!

[Judge Pen]

my unlce trained under cho then he trained me its not suprising cho was an okiniwan stylist as well a lot of koreans masters no a chinese style or an okinawan one for example praying mantis kung fu is real big down there in korea

Says who? You from your uncle from an unknown korean karate "master." Have you met your uncle's teacher?

[Facepalm]

Goju,

I go to CSC Boulder. Im good at sparring too. Im 6' 175 Lbs and im athletic, quick, and intelligent. Ive been at CSC for a year now. Ive definitely had bouts with BB of third degree and I felt afterwards that I was able to get attacks in and evade much of their attacks. What you have to understand is that sparring is different than fighting.
That same BB has been training his hands, feet, shins, forearms, rib cage etc for years longer than I have. If we had really been fighting who cares if I was quicker my blows would not have been nearly as effective as his. His forearms blocks would hurt me badly. His hands and feet being much harder than mine would injure me much easier than my relatively soft weapons against his more thoroughly trained body.
Just because I felt I won a sparring match against one of these BB doesnt mean I think Im a better fighter or a better martial artist. These guys have to go through iron bone training, weight vest conditioning, outdoor conditioning, and endurance punching and kicking, not to mention sparring more often with more contact then youll see in lower belt classes.
When a BB sparrs in lower belt classes he is usually either holding back ( until I try to challenge em of course) or hes trying to practice a specific style or application that he needs working on, thus making him willing to take a few shots while he figures out the best way to make it work.
Sparring is a training exercise period and is not the same as a fight where your trying to hurt each other. I have successful sparring matches against BB all the time. It doesnt mean I have no respect for their knowledge and skill or some how think that Im some sort of prima donna. There is still alot I can learn from this school so I will be staying here until I learn it.

By the way tatooed monk I totally wish I was at your school, it sounds like a much better approach than what the Soards have going on here. But alas CSC is my only option for CMA at the moment.

[goju]

Well there's a lot more to it than that, but you know everything else already, so why should we throw pearls to swine.

You should really check out Roadhouse. Great cheesy 80's flick.
yeah yeah ive been wanting to see that movie lol since i saw them makin fun of it ona vh1 one special
on a serious note i dont usually wear a top because the first thing you do when you start goju ryu is sanchin kata which requires you be shirtless to preform it correctly and i beleive to many clothes restrict the chi flow and trust m efellas a damp sweaty gis is not nice to have no for hours at a time lol

[goju]

Goju,

I go to CSC Boulder. Im good at sparring too. Im 6' 175 Lbs and im athletic, quick, and intelligent. Ive been at CSC for a year now. Ive definitely had bouts with BB of third degree and I felt afterwards that I was able to get attacks in and evade much of their attacks. What you have to understand is that sparring is different than fighting.
That same BB has been training his hands, feet, shins, forearms, rib cage etc for years longer than I have. If we had really been fighting who cares if I was quicker my blows would not have been nearly as effective as his. His forearms blocks would hurt me badly. His hands and feet being much harder than mine would injure me much easier than my relatively soft weapons against his more thoroughly trained body.
Just because I felt I won a sparring match against one of these BB doesnt mean I think Im a better fighter or a better martial artist. These guys have to go through iron bone training, weight vest conditioning, outdoor conditioning, and endurance punching and kicking, not to mention sparring more often with more contact then youll see in lower belt classes.
When a BB sparrs in lower belt classes he is usually either holding back ( until I try to challenge em of course) or hes trying to practice a specific style or application that he needs working on, thus making him willing to take a few shots while he figures out the best way to make it work.
Sparring is a training exercise period and is not the same as a fight where your trying to hurt each other. I have successful sparring matches against BB all the time. It doesnt mean I have no respect for their knowledge and skill or some how think that Im some sort of prima donna. There is still alot I can learn from this school so I will be staying here until I learn it.

By the way tatooed monk I totally wish I was at your school, it sounds like a much better approach than what the Soards have going on here. But alas CSC is my only option for CMA at the moment.
lmao oh yesh i got that excuse when i first threw a black belt across the room during sparring one of black belts came up to me and went oh he let you do that you know? lmao!
see the problem with this is if your an advances student as chojun miyagi noted you should be a good steward of your technique

in other words the higher belts i sparred should have been able to beat me with out doing any serious damage at all
the notion that they were holding back is just something that someones says when they get their ass kicked

[tattooedmonk]

Goju,

I go to CSC Boulder. Im good at sparring too. Im 6' 175 Lbs and im athletic, quick, and intelligent. Ive been at CSC for a year now. Ive definitely had bouts with BB of third degree and I felt afterwards that I was able to get attacks in and evade much of their attacks. What you have to understand is that sparring is different than fighting.
That same BB has been training his hands, feet, shins, forearms, rib cage etc for years longer than I have. If we had really been fighting who cares if I was quicker my blows would not have been nearly as effective as his. His forearms blocks would hurt me badly. His hands and feet being much harder than mine would injure me much easier than my relatively soft weapons against his more thoroughly trained body.
Just because I felt I won a sparring match against one of these BB doesnt mean I think Im a better fighter or a better martial artist. These guys have to go through iron bone training, weight vest conditioning, outdoor conditioning, and endurance punching and kicking, not to mention sparring more often with more contact then youll see in lower belt classes.
When a BB sparrs in lower belt classes he is usually either holding back ( until I try to challenge em of course) or hes trying to practice a specific style or application that he needs working on, thus making him willing to take a few shots while he figures out the best way to make it work.
Sparring is a training exercise period and is not the same as a fight where your trying to hurt each other. I have successful sparring matches against BB all the time. It doesnt mean I have no respect for their knowledge and skill or some how think that Im some sort of prima donna. There is still alot I can learn from this school so I will be staying here until I learn it.

By the way tatooed monk I totally wish I was at your school, it sounds like a much better approach than what the Soards have going on here. But alas CSC is my only option for CMA at the moment.Thanks!!! You are welcome here anytime. Remember there is no winning and losing in sparring matches . Black belts are supposed to spar at the level of the lower belt they are sparring with . Sparring is a training tool not a competition. :D:cool:

[goju]

Says who? You from your uncle from an unknown korean karate "master." Have you met your uncle's teacher?

what do you mean says who? well yeah penn not all masters are widely known and have their only layouts in magazines you know that right? in fact the overwhelming majority of them dont. look at sin know body knows who the hell he is outside of your circle :)

no i nver met him his school was gone for quite some time now though i did meet tiger kim a few years back and ask him if he remembered sung cho. from his response i guess either he dosnt know where he is or sung cho is dead
the latters more likely being that he was allready old when he trained my uncle

[tattooedmonk]

lmao oh yesh i got that excuse when i first threw a black belt across the room during sparring one of black belts came up to me and went oh he let you do that you know? lmao!
see the problem with this is if your an advances student as chojun miyagi noted you should be a good steward of your technique

in other words the higher belts i sparred should have been able to beat me with out doing any serious damage at all
the notion that they were holding back is just something that someones says when they get their ass kickedNot everyone does martial arts become a fighter. People pay to learn an art form. This is America remember???There is no win or lose in sparring , period . It is a training tool. Did you go into a black belt class to spar?? I doubt it. You were in your class not theirs, which makes a big difference.

[goju]

Thanks!!! You are welcome here anytime. Remember there is no winning and losing in sparring matches . Black belts are supposed to spar at the level of the lower belt they are sparring with . Sparring is a training tool not a competition. :D:cool:
im actually quite suprised i thought you guys woulda whipped out that lame excuse pages ago!


if any csc guys wanna come down to wheatridge and spar i know a nice little park we can meet at a few blocks from my house
no body protection or skin guard or arm guards though are a requirement

[goju]

Not everyone does martial arts become a fighter. People pay to learn an art form. This is America remember???There is no win or lose in sparring , period . It is a training tool. Did you go into a black belt class to spar?? I doubt it. You were in your class not theirs, which makes a big difference.

how does it? the black belts stood in the lower belt class and spared with us
i mean come on your honestly going to use that god awful excuse that they were going easy on us lmao o h yeah i forgot about how deadly your style is to really use on someone

[Judge Pen]

yeah yeah ive been wanting to see that movie lol since i saw them makin fun of it ona vh1 one special
on a serious note i dont usually wear a top because the first thing you do when you start goju ryu is sanchin kata which requires you be shirtless to preform it correctly and i beleive to many clothes restrict the chi flow and trust m efellas a damp sweaty gis is not nice to have no for hours at a time lol

chi flow? I thought you did Karate. Shouldn't that be ki?

I've never heard of clothes to restrict the flow of a theoetical force that flows internally unless you are dealing with tight or restrictive clothing. I understand the sweat element though. Stick to practical reasons.

[goju]

you can seriously feel the difference thoughespecially after you do the sanchin it feels to weird to keep your gi top on even if its loose and thats why so many okinawan practioners dont wear tops
same reason we have high water pants as well lol to practice on the beach!

[Judge Pen]

what do you mean says who? well yeah penn not all masters are widely known and have their only layouts in magazines you know that right? in fact the overwhelming majority of them dont. look at sin know body knows who the hell he is outside of your circle :)

no i nver met him his school was gone for quite some time now though i did meet tiger kim a few years back and ask him if he remembered sung cho. from his response i guess either he dosnt know where he is or sung cho is dead
the latters more likely being that he was allready old when he trained my uncle

My point is that your lineage suffers from some of the same problems that people point out for SDs. You're right, not all masters are well known etc., and that doesn't make their knowledge less useful or transferable, but it does make it less verifiable. What I pointed out to you is that you are throwing stones while living in a glass house. It's why people like you should keep your mouth shut about what is real and what is verifialbe.

You want to talk about how well, or how poorly, black-belts at CSC can fight, then I wouldn't fault you a bit because I don't train at CSC and I've never crossed hands with them. But beyond that, you are over-reaching.

[tattooedmonk]

how does it? the black belts stood in the lower belt class and spared with us
i mean come on your honestly going to use that god awful excuse that they were going easy on us lmao o h yeah i forgot about how deadly your style is to really use on someoneSo, if you were in someones class of lower rank and skill level you would go in there and just kick their ass?? obviously you have not had any traditional of formal training and show little to know respect for the way things are done.

[goju]

My point is that your lineage suffers from some of the same problems that people point out for SDs. You're right, not all masters are well known etc., and that doesn't make their knowledge less useful or transferable, but it does make it less verifiable. What I pointed out to you is that you are throwing stones while living in a glass house. It's why people like you should keep your mouth shut about what is real and what is verifialbe.

You want to talk about how well, or how poorly, black-belts at CSC can fight, then I wouldn't fault you a bit because I don't train at CSC and I've never crossed hands with them. But beyond that, you are over-reaching.
yes but master cho didnt claim he knew 900 forms he dosnt have what 150 different schools across the usa he didnt cerify a bunch of crackpots to teach his art and he didnt hand away belts by the barrelfull
thus giving him validity he taught his art taught it well and didnt make boastful claims

and as ive said over and over and over again csc reflects sd as a whole sin certified the soards as some of his highest ranked masters and they are still affliated with him

dont you think sin would have told them to stop handing away belts so easy by now? and got things starten out by now after all these years? lol
no because hes doing the same thing they are
the student is a chip off of the master

[tattooedmonk]

chi flow? I thought you did Karate. Shouldn't that be ki?

I've never heard of clothes to restrict the flow of a theoetical force that flows internally unless you are dealing with tight or restrictive clothing. I understand the sweat element though. Stick to practical reasons. You got there before me, ****!!:D:cool:

[goju]

So, if you were in someones class of lower rank and skill level you would go in there and just kick their ass?? obviously you have not had any traditional of formal training and show little to know respect for the way things are done.
no your not getting the point if i was in a lower rank class i would still win the sparring match i just wouldnt beat the snot out of the lower belt and make sure he didnt beat the snot outta me
the lower blet wont learn if you go easy on him in sparring

[tattooedmonk]

by the end of the day at this rate!!:):eek::cool::D

[goju]

You got there before me, ****!!:D:cool:

got where me using chi? i dont like ki because i said it japanese ans as you can see im not a japanese stylist i dontlike the fact that japanese names were used to please the japanese market to accept karate it houdl have been kept tradtional

[Judge Pen]

yes but master cho didnt claim he knew 900 forms he dosnt have what 150 different schools across the usa he didnt cerify a bunch of crackpots to teach his art and he didnt hand away belts by the barrelfull
thus giving him validity he taught his art taught it well and didnt make boastful claims

and as ive said over and over and over again csc reflects sd as a whole sin certified the soards as some of his highest ranked masters and they are still affliated with him

dont you think sin would have told them to stop handing away belts so easy by now? and got things starten out by now after all these years? lol
no because hes doing the same thing they are
the student is a chip off of the master

I don't know what you are going to do with your teacher's art. Maybe you will have hundreds of students who will start giving belts away and making outrageous claims. Maybe you will claim that you can shoot chi (ki) balls out of your arse. Maybe you won't say anything because you don't care what stupid amercians think or do with an art you give them. Maybe you will like the money or the attention. Maybe you're too nice to tell them they stink.

I don't know the reasons why there's such a variation of skill among Sin The's students. I don't know why Sin The isn't more strick on the claims made. But its not my place. I can like it or I can hate it, but all I can do is train hard with my teachers (who do train hard) and make myself better. If I worried about every other person, I wouldn't have time for myself.

[goju]

by the end of the day at this rate!!:):eek::cool::D


unless that other guy comes back we wont breakfast is almost ready!

[Judge Pen]

got where me using chi? i dont like ki because i said it japanese ans as you can see im not a japanese stylist i dontlike the fact that japanese names were used to please the japanese market to accept karate it houdl have been kept tradtional

They still speak Japanese in Okinawa. and ki is still ki. See, you're mixing terminology yourself. Who knows what your brand of goju ryu will be by the time you’re done.

[tattooedmonk]

no your not getting the point if i was in a lower rank class i would still win the sparring match i just wouldnt beat the snot out of the lower belt and make sure he didnt beat the snot outta me
the lower blet wont learn if you go easy on him in sparring There is no win or lose in a sparring match, period. IT IS NOT A FIGHT. When you beat the snot out of this person did you use what you learned in the class or your previous training?? Can you remember how the match went down?? I mean, what techniques did you use?? was this in regular class or sparring class???

[goju]

I don't know what you are going to do with your teacher's art. Maybe you will have hundreds of students who will start giving belts away and making outrageous claims. Maybe you will claim that you can shoot chi (ki) balls out of your arse. Maybe you won't say anything because you don't care what stupid amercians think or do with an art you give them. Maybe you will like the money or the attention. Maybe you're too nice to tell them they stink.

I don't know the reasons why there's such a variation of skill among Sin The's students. I don't know why Sin The isn't more strick on the claims made. But its not my place. I can like it or I can hate it, but all I can do is train hard with my teachers (who do train hard) and make myself better. If I worried about every other person, I wouldn't have time for myself.
i wont do anything with my art but practice it and hopefuly bring it into the cage someday soon i have no interst in teaching because it is to hard to keep a good student

ill give you a hint why with sin kwang the

CA_SE HE'S A S_AM AR_IS_

WOULD YOU LIKE TO BY A VOWEL OR SPIN THE WHEEL?

[tattooedmonk]

unless that other guy comes back we wont breakfast is almost ready!Someone call KC!!!:rolleyes::eek::cool::D

[goju]

They still speak Japanese in Okinawa. and ki is still ki. See, you're mixing terminology yourself. Who knows what your brand of goju ryu will be by the time you’re done.
yes they do now but if you want to keep tradtion proper you stick to the okinawan terms
and th okinwans adapted jajapense names to sell karate to japan
the sd history if iit would make any sense should have adopted indonesian ones