Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Facepalm]

hadnt planned on it but i might

im a bit out of shape. started a new job so i havent been focused on the fu for a while.

definitely need to get back into though

Well ying yang is definitely a good way to make some quick gains

however tortuous it might be

[kwaichang]

Well how convinient there is no film footage. If it were me I am sure Go Ju would give me He11 for it and say I was a hasbeen etc etc. KC

[goju]

no you are a never were a has been knew something at one point in time

he cmes next time he can bring a camera or his freinds at csc can :)
his acount speaks for itself

[Facepalm]

Well how convinient there is no film footage. If it were me I am sure Go Ju would give me He11 for it and say I was a hasbeen etc etc. KC

With all due respect KC. I had hoped that the flame wars would die down now after today. Please dont try to start another one :o :o:cool:

[goju]

like i told you after we sparred man lol

[kwaichang]

I prefer to make my own judgements from what I see. I havent seen anything. I was just stating a fact ifGo Ju recalls he is the one that wanted to see pics , why should I believe what he says if he will not return the courtesy KC

[Baqualin]

I prefer to make my own judgements from what I see. I havent seen anything. I was just stating a fact ifGo Ju recalls he is the one that wanted to see pics , why should I believe what he says if he will not return the courtesy KC

Hey KC,
You on your period... awful cranky this month:)
BQ

[goju]

ahahahahahahahaha

[tattooedmonk]

Hey BQ ,

you have to understand why KC feels the way he does, I am right there with him. However, I am willing to give the kid a break if he apologizes for his behavior.
Just because he has changed his attitude doesnt mean he should just be given a pass.

It does not take back what he said and how he acted.

I said what I said in defense of something I hold close to my heart and I will be ****ed if someone talks $H!T about it.

Everything was fine until Goju showed up here, stirring it up.


I know in a couple more months or maybe next week it will be someone else!!:rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

So this guy comes on here with derrogatory statements and critical and all, he spars a guy with 1 year experience and responds like an a$$ to us all and I am the one on my period??? I think not I am just not as laid back as most I guess. However he has been disrespectful to many not just me. All I am wanting is to see the proof, just as Go Ju did. No more no less. He wanted pics of me stretching and all but he forgotthat I guess. I could care less about this guy but I just get tired of MA wannabes and critical A$$e$ who cant fight their way out of a paper bag coming on here and playing Mister BA KC

[Baqualin]

I'm sorry guys, I can't buy that...I didn't like the way he first came on here and I'm not saying he's born again..... but he manned up and Face Palm Manned up...they both walked away learning something and with mutual respect...both came back on here and gave the same account...complimenting each other....video or no video...Face Palms word is good enough for me...he's an SD brother and represented us well.....Gojo also came back with a different attitude...maybe his uncle had a talk with him....I will give him a pass as long as he continues to show respect....you guys know that I'm very close to GM Sin and this is how I was taught....to have respect for all.
TTM I've given you the benefit of the doubt a lot...enough said.
BQ

[kwaichang]

Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear KC

[tattooedmonk]

TTM I've given you the benefit of the doubt a lot...enough said.
BQWhat did I do??:confused::eek::D:cool:

I think he should apologize , thats all.:cool:

[Judge Pen]

goju, glad you have nice things to say about facepalm's efforts. Could you describe the sweeps he used that you were not familiar with?

[Yao Sing]

Everything was fine until Goju showed up here, stirring it up.

You're kidding, right?

This is the mother of all complaint threads and Goju is just the latest (and current) SD basher.

And you know he won't be the last.

[One student]

So there was a link on here from someone commenting on USSD. Website claims some kempo background and a bunch of other stuff, but also its founders being granted Grandmaster -- both of them -- by the Abbot of the Shaolin temple? But I can't tell from their site what they profess to teach. What's the story with them?

[goju]

he just lept at me and swept like the basic judo sweep but with out using your arm to aid in toss your opponent down

[goju]

ive seen sweeps smilar to that in shotokan karate though it takes a ton of leg power just to sweep somebody using only your legs





god kc and and tat go to the doctor and get a prescription for your chronic butt hurt lol

[goju]

face palm will probbaly explain the sweep better than i can

[Facepalm]

I was trying to get in a move like #4 sparring technique ( jump front sweep side thrust reverse punch) or like #8( jump block grab front sweep pull punch) But I was unable to get a hand on him or get him off balance enough to follow up with an attack. Although these work like a charm on people who arnt as quick and accurate with the jabs :)

[goju]

aw yeah i remember that technique now from when i was at sd

[Old Noob]

Those sweeps are pretty good, even when you miss. At worst, you get their attention focused down. We're not totally defenseless when we miss because our forms train immediate follow ups. Altogether, good techs that aren't seen in many other places.

[Judge Pen]

he just lept at me and swept like the basic judo sweep but with out using your arm to aid in toss your opponent down

I'm confused then. I thought you got to green belt in SD? That technique is taught early and often in SD (as early as sparring technique number 4).

Edit: I see where you said you remember it now. I would have thought it would be difficult to forget, but I guess it is easier when you decide to discount an art altogether.

[Judge Pen]

ive seen sweeps smilar to that in shotokan karate though it takes a ton of leg power just to sweep somebody using only your legs





god kc and and tat go to the doctor and get a prescription for your chronic butt hurt lol

It doesn't take a ton of leg power if your angle is correct and you strike the proper place on the leg with the proper part of your leg. it takes surprising little stength if done correctly.

[goju]

i just did what he said i either rooted myself or moved away or jammed him and jabbed

[kwaichang]

how do you jam a sweep of that type KC

[goju]

you move into him and check it with your shin

[goju]

its simliar to william cheungs wing chun entry technique

[Judge Pen]

you move into him and check it with your shin

Was he facepalm trying to sweep shin to shin?

[goju]

he was trying to hook his leg a round my calf for a sweep and i moved in at the right time

[Facepalm]

What happened was I was able to uproot his front leg but not enough to keep him unbalanced for long enough to get in the side thrust or pull him in for a punch.

Id get him on one leg but when I shot in further he was able to still keep his guard up and jab at me, effectively halting my advance.

When I get this technique to work its usually because i catch them putting their weight mostly on that leg and i trip them, or Im able to sort of spin them out of the way with the sweep allowing me to kick the ribs or punch the side of their head.

However I was unable to do either to Goju for the previously stated reasons.:(

[goju]

i remember that technique working good at sd when i was there but i think thats because they teach you guys to use that fighting stance where more weight is put on the lead leg and i fight with a fifty fifty weight distribution so i can fire quicks of quickly so i think thats what made it harder. and i stick and move alot as well being that one of my training partners ay the mma gym i went to had that style it rubbed off on me
i remember a good counter i did for that at sd was to grab their lepel and let them trip your and as your falling twist hold them and twist away as hard as you can you throw them with you and you can get side control from there :)

[Judge Pen]

i remember that technique working good at sd when i was there but i think thats because they teach you guys to use that fighting stance where more weight is put on the lead leg and i fight with a fifty fifty weight distribution so i can fire quicks of quickly so i think thats what made it harder. and i stick and move alot as well being that one of my training partners ay the mma gym i went to had that style it rubbed off on me
i remember a good counter i did for that at sd was to grab their lepel and let them trip your and as your falling twist hold them and twist away as hard as you can you throw them with you and you can get side control from there :)

SD doesn't teach a fighting stance with more weight on the front leg (at least not the teachers I've had). The basic stance is more 50/50. Short form uses a bo stance, but it is not for fighting as much as it is stance training and strength in the transition movements.

[Baqualin]

It's taught here 50/50.....some internal fighting stances are 60/40 more weight slightly on back leg. Also the calf is a little high for that kind of sweep.
BQ

[goju]

when i went the stance they taught us was like a weird bow stance with most of the weight on the lead legs and the hands held at a weirdway

[Facepalm]

Ive been taught sparring stance as 60% forward 40% back and that this was to make it easier to root your front foot in order to avoid getting swept or uprooted. I can also see how this would help you snap off kicks faster as you dont need to shift your weight as much prior to the kick.

In practice Id say the 50% 50% way is closer to what im actually doing considering Ill be slightly shifting my weight based on how I interpret my opponents movements.

I definitely have rooted myself against this same kind of sweep before and all it earned my opponent was a sore foot ( hopefully a little more sore than my own :p)

IMO the best time to use this sort of sweep is when they are stepping down hard on their foot (very un tia chi like ;))

But Ive really got to work on getting the side thrust follow up off quicker.

[Facepalm]

when i went the stance they taught us was like a weird bow stance with most of the weight on the lead legs and the hands held at a weirdway

Ive never done that much research but I have seen other arts bow stances that were different than ours. Is our bow stance very common?

In all honesty the other bow stance had positions Ive seen dont really look like they make any more sense then our own.

Ours seems like its a good ready position for movement not exactly a guard.

Other ones seem to be different but for the same purpose (ie starting hand position and not to train you to guard)

[goju]

it would be to good do that sweep after you a jab at their head so they are distracted

[goju]

yeah it looks like the regular bow you see in most schools from what i saw
inever like the fighting stance they showed us there thought its not springy enough for me goju has alot of crane in it and you need to be more elusive and quick

[Facepalm]

From alot of what ive read about this style and heard from the elder masters is that the crane should be quick and elusive but also that their is much stillness and patience.

Stillness punctuated by quick deceptive motion is how ive come to see the crane.

[Lucas]

what does sd bow stance look like? any pics?

crane also has great strength in its structure.

[Facepalm]

Usually in class when I go against a tough opponent ill start using the crane because it suits the way I defend myself. I really was unable to use it very effectively against Goju though.

But I remember that for those three months of brown belt where we worked on crane forms I was sparring the best out of my whole time there.

Calmly wait for the attack jump to the side and smack their guard out of the way. Then smack em in the face.

Oh those were some fun times

Now Ive been more focused on using movements from che chien and lohan short forms. I need to develop quicker, longer, and more powerful punches and develop my ability to string combos together.

[goju]

yes thats true even goju forms are still than explosive then still again its a counter attacking style as well

[Facepalm]

what does sd bow stance look like? Any pics?

Crane also has great strength in its structure.

0_
|-
/ |

[Lucas]

yes thats true even goju forms are still than explosive then still again its a counter attacking style as well

that would make sense with the connection to crane. for instance when we watch a crane in the wild fight, its always defensive and counter attacks, using form, stance and posture to put it into the dominant position.

[Facepalm]

well the body should be spaced one over to the right but thats basically it.

Low as you can front leg bent and thigh horizontal, rear leg almost completely straight.
Inside arm fist palm down and held horizontally outward with shoulder relaxed and dropped. Outside arm fist palm up chambered at waist.

[Lucas]

0_
|-
/ |

im just wondering more along the lines of if your style is particular about the form of your bow stance. for instance you will find variations between styles in chinese arts, some styles are rather strict or rigid on what they think the bow stance should be.

[Lucas]

is the front foot angled at 45 degrees or is it straight forward?

[goju]

yep thats true a crane is natural a weak animal so it dosnt use power goju like the chinese crane syle derives its power from violent torque from the waist when you attack

[Baqualin]

is the front foot angled at 45 degrees or is it straight forward?

Straight foward

[Baqualin]

yeah it looks like the regular bow you see in most schools from what i saw
inever like the fighting stance they showed us there thought its not springy enough for me goju has alot of crane in it and you need to be more elusive and quick

The fighting stances should be springy

[kwaichang]

The bowstance "should " have about a 30deg inward rotation at the foot and knee the rear foot should angle out approx 45 deg the lead will help protect the groin for a straight on attack. In shotokan the hips are in what is called Hanmi this is one hip behind the other the SD Bow hips are in the same position. thus when you throw a punch from this position this will coil the hips and add power to the following punch and so on. KC

[Judge Pen]

when i went the stance they taught us was like a weird bow stance with most of the weight on the lead legs and the hands held at a weirdway

The bo stance isn't a fighting stance. It's a transitional movement that is trained static for strength and balance. Japanese karate teaches a simliar stance. The reason for sparring techniques is to help one understand basic sparring applications out of the short form.

You might find yourslef in a bo stance in a fight or for an actual application, but it is part of a transition or series of techniques. It should be part of a fluid movement and not held static. Lining up to fight from a bow stance is misleading and should be explained in connection to sparring techniques.

For example, you might step into a bo stance )either stepping forward or backward) to advance or avoid or to generate power on a technique or to root oneself.

To be fair, I've met people who postulate that one should be able to line up and fight out of a bo stance. All it takes is some quick lateral movement to show them the error in their ways.

[kwaichang]

Any stance with attack and defense should be there for only a moment, the moment of power or impact then on you go to the next position. The better you are the shorter period of time one is in the stance. KC

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=kwaichang;942315]The bowstance "should " have about a 30deg inward rotation at the foot

Your probably right......I've only practice Internal for years now and the stances are different;)
BQ

[goju]

i know but the official sd fighting stance i was taught lloked liek a bow stance and they insisted we fight with that the upper body is leaned forward tooand one fist is like at chest level and the other at nose

[Facepalm]

The sparring stance as described to me has been said to be halfway between a bow and horse stance with your feet out of alignment for lateral support.

It is taught at CSCs that your supposed to have 60% weight forward but I dont think that is supposed to decrease the mobility of the stance your still supposed to be light on your feet but I think the 60% weight forward is to aid in rooting against a sweep or so Ive been told.

The arms are held outward away from the body at like a 135 degree angle with the rear fist guarding alongside the forearm of the lead arm.

Thats the best way I can describe how this stance was taught to me

[sean_stonehart]

[QUOTE=kwaichang;942315]The bowstance "should " have about a 30deg inward rotation at the foot

Your probably right......I've only practice Internal for years now and the stances are different;)
BQ

Ah don't worry, they're different between the north & the south too...

[tattooedmonk]

I have both my feet at a 45. Back foot internally rotated , front foot externally rotated.

[Yao Sing]

Are you sure it's not the other way around?

[tattooedmonk]

Are you sure it's not the other way around?Yes, if it was the other way I would be going backwards.:D

[Yao Sing]

Well you totally confused me then but that's not actually hard to do.

So your back foot is turned in (pigeon toe) and your front foot is turned out?

Facing up ^

\ - front foot external rotate
\ - back foot internal rotate

?????

or

/
/

That's how I stand.

[shen ku]

i do my sparring tech. from a cat stance?

[goju]

yeah that makes no sense either yao you wouldnt be in the bow stance with your lead foor sticking out its eithe rpointing strait or tucked inwards

cats allright i dotn like to use "stances" as in hosrse stance bow etc etc to fight because they were intended to be used to fight in the first place

[Judge Pen]

i know but the official sd fighting stance i was taught lloked liek a bow stance and they insisted we fight with that the upper body is leaned forward tooand one fist is like at chest level and the other at nose

There is no "official" SD fighting stance. You were there less than a year? The sparring techniques that were taught to green level did have the hand placement like you described, but it was not leaning forward. If you were taught that, then you were taught wrong. Heck, you can look at the KET tapes and see how the The' brothers taught sparring techniques. It is not like you are describing.

The sparring techniques were basic fundamental combinations that were straight sparring applications out of short form. You figure out what works for you by trial and error.

EDIT: I just read where facepalm confirmed that CSC taught a 60% weight on the front foot sparring stance. That's weird to me. I've not trained with the CSC (Soards) before. I've trained with people from Kentucky, Tennessee, Texas and Atlanta in my 20 years, and I've never known anyone to teach a fighting stance with an emphasis on weight on the front leg. But like I said when goju first started showing up, SD is very diverse in how much leeway each group is given to teach and interpret the material. There are many differences from area to area and there's lots of disagreement in how something should be done. That isn't always discussed on an internet forum because that's internal politics. SD is attacked enough from the outside to waste time arguing from the inside.

[Judge Pen]

yeah that makes no sense either yao you wouldnt be in the bow stance with your lead foor sticking out its eithe rpointing strait or tucked inwards

cats allright i dotn like to use "stances" as in hosrse stance bow etc etc to fight because they were intended to be used to fight in the first place

They weren't intended to be used as a static stance in a fight. But the traditional stances teach you proper body mechanics and how you should be transitioning in your fighting. They are often over emphasized in training for stength and endurance purposes, but the general mechanics should be there when you are moving.

Since we are talking stances, what's the biggest limitation to the cat stance?

[sha0lin1]

So there was a link on here from someone commenting on USSD. Website claims some kempo background and a bunch of other stuff, but also its founders being granted Grandmaster -- both of them -- by the Abbot of the Shaolin temple? But I can't tell from their site what they profess to teach. What's the story with them?

There is a whole thread on here about USSD. From what little I know about them, they were originally a Kenpo school that some students broke off from, a guy named Mattera. They started teaching a little fu mixed in with their Kempo. From what I understand, Mattera went to the Temple and donated several thousand dollars and received his 10th degree black belt and title of grandmaster from Shi Yong Xin. Now, that is just downright weird because Shaolin Temple doesn't have a ranking system so there is no such thing as a 10th degree black belt. As for the title of grandmaster, it is likely that he recieved that due to his generous donation to the temple. Akin to recieving an honorary degree from a University when you make large donations to them.

[shen ku]

i use cat for sparring tech, with a 60-70%back foot and 30-40%front foot. it was just the way i was taught to begin. i feel it keeps my front foot ready to move in any direction, up for a kick or to drive out to close distance, or instead or rooting to prevent a sweep, i just move the foot and counter...

disadvantage??,,, some people tend to mostly just stand on their rear foot and because of the they can not move quickly at all,,, but i do not believe that is proper but it is the most commen problem i see in teaching it

[tattooedmonk]

Well you totally confused me then but that's not actually hard to do.

So your back foot is turned in (pigeon toe) and your front foot is turned out?

Facing up ^

\ - front foot external rotate
\ - back foot internal rotate

?????

or

/
/

That's how I stand.They could be either way depending on which side is forward. Also, I do not practice with them in direct alignment with each other. Meaning the back foot is not directly behind the lead foot, or the heel of the back foot is inline with the ball of the foot of the lead leg.

As for weight distribution, I was also taught that it is 60 /40 for sparring stance. All stances have weight distribution whether you were taught that way or not.

[tattooedmonk]

There is no "official" SD fighting stance. You were there less than a year? The sparring techniques that were taught to green level did have the hand placement like you described, but it was not leaning forward. If you were taught that, then you were taught wrong. Heck, you can look at the KET tapes and see how the The' brothers taught sparring techniques. It is not like you are describing.

The sparring techniques were basic fundamental combinations that were straight sparring applications out of short form. You figure out what works for you by trial and error.

EDIT: I just read where facepalm confirmed that CSC taught a 60% weight on the front foot sparring stance. That's weird to me. I've not trained with the CSC (Soards) before. I've trained with people from Kentucky, Tennessee, Texas and Atlanta in my 20 years, and I've never known anyone to teach a fighting stance with an emphasis on weight on the front leg. But like I said when goju first started showing up, SD is very diverse in how much leeway each group is given to teach and interpret the material. There are many differences from area to area and there's lots of disagreement in how something should be done. That isn't always discussed on an internet forum because that's internal politics. SD is attacked enough from the outside to waste time arguing from the inside.I have never heard or seen done it how he describes it. He must be confused.

You say that 60 % is weird to you , why?? Isnt the sparring stance supposed to be more weight on the front foot than the back foot?? You didnt learn stances with specific weight distributions??

[goju]

no im not, from what face plalm described it must be the same as what i was shown years ago and they called it our fighting stance

yes but not to fight with having to much weight on either foot is a problem for mobility

[goju]

ill send a pic to pens e latter on showing the stance i was taught at sd

[goju]

allright i sent the pic i beleive i got it all correct from what i remember from sd training

[Tensei85]

i use cat for sparring tech, with a 60-70%back foot and 30-40%front foot. it was just the way i was taught to begin. i feel it keeps my front foot ready to move in any direction, up for a kick or to drive out to close distance, or instead or rooting to prevent a sweep, i just move the foot and counter...

disadvantage??,,, some people tend to mostly just stand on their rear foot and because of the they can not move quickly at all,,, but i do not believe that is proper but it is the most commen problem i see in teaching it

I agree, I personally utilize this stance quite frequently in sparring.

It's helped quite a bit, allows my front foot to kick faster than a bow & arrow stance would. Allows footwork changes fast and angles as well.

But I guess there are pro's and con's as well.

[Old Noob]

i use cat for sparring tech, with a 60-70%back foot and 30-40%front foot. it was just the way i was taught to begin. i feel it keeps my front foot ready to move in any direction, up for a kick or to drive out to close distance, or instead or rooting to prevent a sweep, i just move the foot and counter...

disadvantage??,,, some people tend to mostly just stand on their rear foot and because of the they can not move quickly at all,,, but i do not believe that is proper but it is the most commen problem i see in teaching it

I think that, even if you have only 30% of your weight on your front foot, you're not technically doing a cat stance, but rather a rear-weighted sparring stance. I use approximately a 60 rear/40 front distribution. I feel like I can move my front leg quickly enough to check kicks and can get off front-leg kicks quickly from that position, while preserving the ability to quickly transfer weight forward for more powerful crosses and back leg kicks.

When sparring from a true cat stance, I fell like I lose power on front leg kicks and all my punches, unless I transition weight to that foot, which happens more slowly if almost all my wieght is on the back leg.

I'm just a 3rd brown, though, so I may just need more time to get comfortable with the cat. Being 6'5, 235, though, I don't like putting the vast majority of my weight on any one leg unless the other is airborne in route to a target.

[tattooedmonk]

Cat Stance is 90/10 and Reverse Sparring Stance or ( San Ti Stance from Xing Yi) is 60/40 depending on who you ask.

[Judge Pen]

I have never heard or seen done it how he describes it. He must be confused.

You say that 60 % is weird to you , why?? Isnt the sparring stance supposed to be more weight on the front foot than the back foot?? You didnt learn stances with specific weight distributions??

I did, but I was taught that a sparring stance should be 50/50 more or less. the weight distribution from foot to foot will fluctuate vastly while sparring depending on whether you are advancing, retreating, rooting, evading etc. but the best mobility and least chance of being pulled or pushed off-balance comes from a mobile stance with equal weight distribution.

[goju]

if you put too much weight on the lead leg you can get puled off balance if yo put too much on the back you can get knocke dodwn to easily ive never seen a krate sensie worth his weiht using those stances to spar

[kwaichang]

A stance in fighting should not exist as soon as you are there you are gone, Stances are good for training purposes in my opinion. KC

[Judge Pen]

A stance in fighting should not exist as soon as you are there you are gone, Stances are good for training purposes in my opinion. KC

I think we are using the word stance for two different concepts. You are 100% correct with what you are saying. The idea that you take a stance to fight is misleading, but apparently some people have been taught to put more weight on the front leg or vice versa. You should be able to have a guard and in a position to move with maximum efficiency. I think, along the lines you say, that you should be fluid and mobile with, at least initally, equal weight distribution for mobility. At any given point in a match or fight, the weight distribution will be more or less depending on the circumstances.

Take San Ti for example. It has a specific weight distribution that one assumes before launcing into one of the roads of hsing Ie, but I doubt that the intent is to actually go into san ti prior to fighting. Thoughts on that anyone?

[goju]

go ahead and post it pen thats why i sent it
this ws the "official" sd fighting stance i was taught by the soards while i was at csc

[Judge Pen]

Here's a pic goju e-mailed to me showing the stance he was taught at the CSC.

[goju]

its a ****ty stance as well thats when i started turning around my opinion of them the lead leg is to open to kick and the hands can be trapped easily nor is it good for mobility

[goju]

god i look cool in that photo lmao

[BentMonk]

I think everyone has a "natural" stance once they've sparred for a while.

I agree with JP. The circumstances determine what you do at that moment.

IMO a well rounded fighter will train various stances in order to give himself a wider variety of movement options.

I feel that limiting yourself to one type of stance might lead to other unconscious habits. I think these types of things can potentially make a fighter easier to read, especially when tired.

Train to be adaptable and you will be.

I actually think that my CP helps me spar to some degree. My height changes with every step I take. This makes my reach very hard to gauge, especially since I have really long arms. In order to compensate for my mobility issues, I tend to "hop" on the balls of my feet when I spar. This helps me go with the flow of my opponent and often results in me gaining superior position.

Unfortunately, I circle to one side better than the other and I still have crappy balance. But, I do not have a "set" sparring stance at all.

I also love to spar, so I don't get upset when I'm handed my butt on a plate from time to time. It all just makes you better. :)

[goju]

i switched my stance up now i fight south paw good thing is iused to be the other way but with a south paw stance my power side is forward and what i do since most people keep there weak side forward is i stay on there weak hand and leg thus you have my power side go against there weak it works like a charm

i like the taekwondo stance iw as taught its similar to bruce lees jeet kune do stance and gives you good protection and mobility

[Old Noob]

Here's a pic goju e-mailed to me showing the stance he was taught at the CSC.

The way you play it, Goju, you certainly make it seem like a boxer's stance from the 1800s. If that's the way you perceive the stance, no wonder you didn't like it. While the sparring techniques have a lot of backfists, I don't remember ever holding my hands in that postition (or loading the front foot 60% for that matter), but you've intrigued me. I'm going to have someone photograph my sparring techiques so I can see if my stance ever resembles that.

[Judge Pen]

i switched my stance up now i fight south paw good thing is iused to be the other way but with a south paw stance my power side is forward and what i do since most people keep there weak side forward is i stay on there weak hand and leg thus you have my power side go against there weak it works like a charm

i like the taekwondo stance iw as taught its similar to bruce lees jeet kune do stance and gives you good protection and mobility

I was initially taught to fight southpaw incidently.

[goju]

its a good route to switch it up to southie if your right handed your jab will be strong enough to knock somebody out

[Judge Pen]

I think they would have to have a glass jaw for a jab to knock someone out. That or you would have to have the perfect angle on their jawline.

[goju]

ive knocked peope down easily sparring with it its a combination of the fact that my lead hand is my power hand as well and the expolsive whipping power in goju that i applied to boxing punches as well
and the makiawara its good for building expolsive force
combining asian methods of delivering power with boxing has really worked for me

[Judge Pen]

ive knocked peope down easily sparring with it its a combination of the fact that my lead hand is my power hand as well and the expolsive whipping power in goju that i applied to boxing punches as well
and the makiawara its good for building expolsive force
combining asian methods of delivering power with boxing has really worked for me

I've knocked people down with a good stiff jab, and I've knocked the fight out of them, but I have not knocked them unconscious with a jab. I'm sure MK could cite to the number of times somone has been knocked out in an MMA fight with a jab but I think it typically takes a corss or hook etc to hit the right spot with enough force.

[goju]

a lot of peopel even mma guys dont know how to torque there hips properly when they punch i practice it constantly thats why i can deliver that force in a jab i am extermely double jointed in my hips too so i may get extra rotation than the average bloke

[kungfujunky]

thats not the stance that is taught at csc

close but not quite..some glaring differences in fact

ill try to post a pic of myself in the stance that is universal throughout the schools (i have trained with all but 1 of the current instructors in csc including the soards and have seen the correct stance as it is taught by all of them)

:D

and goju..id love to cross hands with you sometime. I have 5 years in csc and would like to see what differences (if any) there are between myself and face palm(is that who you sparred?)

[goju]

remember i havent been there for years so i demonstrated it as best as i could
i beleive the lead hand is a litte more higher and im im not leaning for ward enough but thats the gist of the stance


yep face plam is the guy i sparred you in colorado too

[kungfujunky]

Yep im in Denver

[goju]

cool ill be free in about a month maybe a little less

[tattooedmonk]

thats not the stance that is taught at csc

close but not quite..some glaring differences in fact

ill try to post a pic of myself in the stance that is universal throughout the schools (i have trained with all but 1 of the current instructors in csc including the soards and have seen the correct stance as it is taught by all of them)

:D

and goju..id love to cross hands with you sometime. I have 5 years in csc and would like to see what differences (if any) there are between myself and face palm(is that who you sparred?) Looks different from what I know too. I am still wondering about the leaning forward that he keeps talking about.

[goju]

thats what i was taught whie i was there they may have change dthings up as well inoticed faceplam mentione dconditioning on saturdays we didnt have that when i went either
actually im not leaning forward enough the upper body was tilted forward more thna what ive shown

[Facepalm]

The 60/40 distribution as ive seen should not cause you to lean forward in any way. Infact "leaning" of any kind, other than laughing Buddha of course, is discouraged shifting the body while keeping upright is encouraged.

From the stance Goju was making id say that thats what I interpreted it as at first. You know the 1890's boxer technique. But Ive come to see it as being more relaxed. Maybe you might be waiting with a little more weight on that front leg but I always try to keep my body ****her back in the stance.

[Facepalm]

wow you cant say ****

[goju]

you can say **** ? what a ****in outrage lol

i know its feckin bent but thats what the soards showed me it does look like the old timey boxers stance come to think of it lol

[kwaichang]

Go Ju no wonder you dislike SD so much if that stance is what you were taught I would be angry too KC

[goju]

yup the minute they showed us that i went ummmmmmmmmm lol

[Baqualin]

Gojo, If you were taught that stance as a way to fight...I would have gone wtf too......FYI I been in SD for 35 years and never seen anything like that....if I fought someone like that I would probably lose the match from laughing myself to death. By the way there is no official SD fighting stances...each person has to develop that for themselves.....with that said the sparring techniques are taught in a standard way for teaching purposes...you can then take that and develop what works for you.
BQ

[SDJerry]

I used to train SD and the basic stance they taught when we first started sparring was the right foot forward stance with your weight equally distributed among both feet so you can move in either direction quickly.

I've seen people fight with more weight on their front foot, like a 60/40 and to be honest... as soon as I see that I start plotting :D

Someone made a reference to that being similar to and older boxing stance and that would make sense... they don't have to worry about kicks. Its harder to check a leg kick from a 60/40 stance so you would probably end up taking some punishment. I know they did not train leg kicks in the SD school I attended so maybe that explains why some people might have adopted that stance. You're still vulnerable to sweeps though.

[Judge Pen]

Gojo, If you were taught that stance as a way to fight...I would have gone wtf too......FYI I been in SD for 35 years and never seen anything like that....if I fought someone like that I would probably lose the match from laughing myself to death. By the way there is no official SD fighting stances...each person has to develop that for themselves.....with that said the sparring techniques are taught in a standard way for teaching purposes...you can then take that and develop what works for you.
BQ

ditto


I used to train SD and the basic stance they taught when we first started sparring was the right foot forward stance with your weight equally distributed among both feet so you can move in either direction quickly.

I've seen people fight with more weight on their front foot, like a 60/40 and to be honest... as soon as I see that I start plotting :D

Someone made a reference to that being similar to and older boxing stance and that would make sense... they don't have to worry about kicks. Its harder to check a leg kick from a 60/40 stance so you would probably end up taking some punishment. I know they did not train leg kicks in the SD school I attended so maybe that explains why some people might have adopted that stance. You're still vulnerable to sweeps though.

and ditto

[OldandUsed]

The photo of Goju and his stance look very much the way Bill used to teach a sparring method incorporating BaQua back in the mid-70s. At that time, the Soards were students at the Louisville club. Of course, there are some differences in what was in that photo and what Bill taught. Way back when, Keith Murray and Keith Krawiec were the only ones I remember really getting good with it. But then I have sometimers. : )

[OldandUsed]

The photo of Goju and his stance look very much the way Bill used to teach a sparring method incorporating BaQua back in the mid-70s. At that time, the Soards were students at the Louisville club. Of course, there are some differences in what was in that photo and what Bill taught. You could use the deflection and trapping from the position and short kicks, elbows and knees were easy to use from that position, as well. I believe he called it a three point or three post sparring position. Way back when, Keith Murray and Keith Krawiec were the only ones I remember really getting good with it. But then I have sometimers. : )

[Baqualin]

The photo of Goju and his stance look very much the way Bill used to teach a sparring method incorporating BaQua back in the mid-70s. At that time, the Soards were students at the Louisville club. Of course, there are some differences in what was in that photo and what Bill taught. You could use the deflection and trapping from the position and short kicks, elbows and knees were easy to use from that position, as well. I believe he called it a three point or three post sparring position. Way back when, Keith Murray and Keith Krawiec were the only ones I remember really getting good with it. But then I have sometimers. : )

That's also the Hsing I stance, it's still 50/50 to 60 (rear)/40 weight distribution, no leaning forward and the hands are not held like Jack Dempsey...it's very similiar to the Jiulong Baqua wedge...very good for what you stated above along with uprooting and take downs...anybody who has learned Hsing I shattering hands knows what I mean.....as soon as the target attacks, you attack.
BQ

[OldandUsed]

Yes, that is true. The three point had been shown to us before the Hsing Ie class was taught, so that was the reference I used. Good point, though.

[tattooedmonk]

I believe there is a misunderstanding in regards to the weight distribution.

I believe that you are supposed to be defending yourself from all directions and that the idea behind the sparring stance is that you are dealing with someone who is in front of you and because your upper torso, head and arms are turned in that direction that more of your weight is in the front than the back and naturally puts the weight forward on the lead leg.

It as if you are standing in a horse stance the weight is 50/50 meaning that if you cut the body in half along the sagital plain that 50% would fall on either side, where as if they were in fighting stance that 60%would fall forward and 40% would fall backwards.

These were the ideas that were conveyed to me.

[Baqualin]

I believe there is a misunderstanding in regards to the weight distribution.

I believe that you are supposed to be defending yourself from all directions and that the idea behind the sparring stance is that you are dealing with someone who is in front of you and because your upper torso, head and arms are turned in that direction that more of your weight is in the front than the back and naturally puts the weight forward on the lead leg.

It as if you are standing in a horse stance the weight is 50/50 meaning that if you cut the body in half along the sagital plain that 50% would fall on either side, where as if they were in fighting stance that 60%would fall forward and 40% would fall backwards.

These were the ideas that were conveyed to me.

It would be hard to generate explosive power that way.....where your spine is in relation to your feet is what decides where your weight distribution is. If your posture is correct you have a direct line of force from your rear foot up your spine and out your fist......from the front there's no direct line of force to your fist.
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

It would be hard to generate explosive power that way.....where your spine is in relation to your feet is what decides where your weight distribution is. If your posture is correct you have a direct line of force from your rear foot up your spine and out your fist......from the front there's no direct line of force to your fist.
BQ Can you please explain with a little more detail?

I understand that the energy runs along the kinetic chain from the back foot, along the length of the leg, up the spine, along the length of the arm and out from the fist.

Like I said, I understand it as how much of your body is on oneside over the other not so much as you have more weight in the lead leg than the back.

I agree that no one should stay in one stance in a self defense / fighting situation for longer than a split second. However, for stability, balance, strength , weight distribution through a specific range of motion, etc. practicing stances both statically and dynamically with various weight distributions is beneficial.

[tattooedmonk]

.......in sparring stance, are they in an uppercut postion or vertical fist position?? I know that out west they do it with both hands in an uppercut position.( 1800s boxer style)

I have a video of EML (from the 80s) doing it with lead hand uppecut position and back hand in a horizontal postion.


Anyone???

[kwaichang]

Sounds likie you are describing ST # 1 KC

[Yao Sing]

They could be either way depending on which side is forward. Also, I do not practice with them in direct alignment with each other. Meaning the back foot is not directly behind the lead foot, or the heel of the back foot is inline with the ball of the foot of the lead leg.

No, you said the rear foot was turned inward and the front outward so it doesn't matter which foot is forward. And my original example had them separated but the second one was a quik showing.

So you do turn your lead foot outward?


Isnt the sparring stance supposed to be more weight on the front foot than the back foot??

Not at any school/style of Karate/Kung Fu I ever studied.


i switched my stance up now i fight south paw good thing is iused to be the other way but with a south paw stance my power side is forward and what i do since most people keep there weak side forward is i stay on there weak hand and leg thus you have my power side go against there weak it works like a charm

Northern Mantis uses strong side forward, something that came about gradually with me and I didn't notice as it was happening. I alternate when I fight but used to favor left forward (I'm right handed) but now I seem to go for right side forward more often.

[Yao Sing]

Since we are talking stances, what's the biggest limitation to the cat stance?

Coughing up a hairball when attacked?

Dog stance chases you over the furniture?

[goju]

yeah me too now i cant fight with my weaker side forward any more im a full turned southy

[tattooedmonk]

Sounds likie you are describing ST # 1 KCArent all sparring techniques done from the same position??

[Baqualin]

coughing up a hairball when attacked?

Dog stance chases you over the furniture?


hahahahahahaha:d:d:d

[One student]

Don't many sport MMA fighters preach weight forward stance, or at least equal, to make one less susceptible to take downs? Even though MORE susceptible to other things?

[SDJerry]

yeah me too now i cant fight with my weaker side forward any more im a full turned southy

IMO The issue with fighting dominant side forward is that you puts your power up front and exposed. Most people who train dominant side forward have the same problem you mention, they can not fight with the weaker side forward.

Any good fighter will notice that dominant side forward and start attacking that lead leg. What happens is eventually those kicks add up so you switch stances to protect the leg. Now all you have is the side forward you don't train and that's where it starts to get ugly.

That's what I was taught and I've used those tactis so I know they work.

[Judge Pen]

IMO The issue with fighting dominant side forward is that you puts your power up front and exposed. Most people who train dominant side forward have the same problem you mention, they can not fight with the weaker side forward.

Any good fighter will notice that dominant side forward and start attacking that lead leg. What happens is eventually those kicks add up so you switch stances to protect the leg. Now all you have is the side forward you don't train and that's where it starts to get ugly.

That's what I was taught and I've used those tactis so I know they work.

That's excellent advice that I haven't considered before. Years ago I made a conscious effort to train my weak side to try to balance myself out. I'm now better with it, but not where I would like to be. Certain techniques are useless from my left side, but some techniques, like my side kick, are actually as strong or stronger. I like to start out sparring on my left side if its a freindly match to get some work in on that side.

[MasterKiller]

IMO The issue with fighting dominant side forward is that you puts your power up front and exposed. Most people who train dominant side forward have the same problem you mention, they can not fight with the weaker side forward.

Any good fighter will notice that dominant side forward and start attacking that lead leg. What happens is eventually those kicks add up so you switch stances to protect the leg. Now all you have is the side forward you don't train and that's where it starts to get ugly.

That's what I was taught and I've used those tactis so I know they work.

This is precisely why the Chinese San Shou teams switched to orthodox stance. Muay Thai fighters were killing them.

[Old Noob]

What would be the optimal stance if you're cross-dominant? I'm a soutpaw but my right leg is definitely the smarter of the two. I generally fight left hand forward, which puts my power arm up front but leaves my stronger leg. Opinions?

[solo1]

Im testing for Green this weekend someone wish me luck.

[Old Noob]

Im testing for Green this weekend someone wish me luck.

Good luck! The green material rocks!

[Shaolin Wookie]

As for MMA/BJJ stances, it depends on what kind of fighter you are. If I'm squaring off, and there's distance, and I have a kicker in front of me, I fight weak (left) forward, because I want to shoot and post up on my right leg for the takedown (double-leg). Always post up on the dominant leg. If I'm in close and looking for a single-leg, it's right lead because I don't need distance. I want to keep it close. If I'm fighting a grappler, I lead left anyways, since it's the quicker/more flexible of my two legs, oddly enough, even though my right is stronger. So when I sprawl, it's better as a base.

If you're fighting a striker, it doesn't matter as much--just preference. And maybe you can bring him to your power hand with a weak-side stance forward if he doesn't know how to move laterally very well. But you can get thrown off by a grappler who mirrors your stance (your right lead, his left lead). You'll think he's a southy, but he's looking for the takedown. That's why strikers usually get caught by surprise. They think the guy is wide open for kicks from their power leg...and then bam, they're on the ground like a fish out of water.

[MasterKiller]

As for MMA/BJJ stances, it depends on what kind of fighter you are. If I'm squaring off, and there's distance, and I have a kicker in front of me, I fight weak (left) forward, because I want to shoot and post up on my right leg for the takedown (double-leg). Always post up on the dominant leg. If I'm in close and looking for a single-leg, it's right lead because I don't need distance. I want to keep it close. If I'm fighting a grappler, I lead left anyways, since it's the quicker/more flexible of my two legs, oddly enough, even though my right is stronger. So when I sprawl, it's better as a base.

If you're fighting a striker, it doesn't matter as much--just preference. And maybe you can bring him to your power hand with a weak-side stance forward if he doesn't know how to move laterally very well. But you can get thrown off by a grappler who mirrors your stance (your right lead, his left lead). You'll think he's a southy, but he's looking for the takedown. That's why strikers usually get caught by surprise. They think the guy is wide open for kicks from their power leg...and then bam, they're on the ground like a fish out of water.

Sport fighters are taught to fight one-side forward, for the most part, to protect their power leg and setup strikes from the power hand.

When you enter the clinch, all bets are off, but from a purely striking standpoint, I'd have to disagree with your above assessment in regards to the general consensus. It's almost always power-side back, except for situations when you use a switch-kick or something similar. But even then you return as quickly as possible to prevent leaks in your guard.

[Lucas]

personally, i keep it my left forward, to take the damage, and set up for my stonger strikes. id say my jab is pretty much the same with either fist though. its a jab, pretty easy to bring up to speed imo.

on a side note, i dont practice sd, but im glad you guys offer up technical discussion here.

[tattooedmonk]

Shouldn't our training include reducing and/ or eliminating a dominate side??

[Judge Pen]

Shouldn't our training include reducing and/ or eliminating a dominate side??

Yes, but you're fighting mother nature there. Most people, even with training, will still have stronger sides depending on the technique. You can minimize it, but it will still be there.

[Facepalm]

I know that the Elder Masters in Colorado continually stress practicing everything twice as much on your weaker side. They say to do this because "hes not always gonna be on your right side" and also to combat health problems associated with only using your right (like how baseball players and tennis players get bad elbows and shoulders from all the dominant handed repetitive motions they must preform).

On a side note... this month weve been learning the single ended staff form and I think ive been over doing the La Na Chas. Ive really done a number on my right knee dropping into reverse bow for the Na and shifting into forward for the Cha.

Do you guys have any pointers for reducing or preparing myself for knee torques like this in the future?....

Theres gonna be alot of spear down the road for me and Id like to prevent injury.

[MasterKiller]

Shouldn't our training include reducing and/ or eliminating a dominate side??

I think that you have to weigh what's most efficient and practical against what's more inclusive; in this case, I think it's much more efficient and practical to train one side to get the power and weight distribution maximized for those techniques versus splitting your training time for both sides in case one side is disabled. Really, if you are hurt bad enough that you can use your natural power side, your chances in the fight are slim to remote anyway.

[Facepalm]

Is that really a Walt Whitman quote?

Wasnt he a writer, poet, and naturalist or something?

I guess its a joke that im not getting

[SDJerry]

Shouldn't our training include reducing and/ or eliminating a dominate side??

Everyone is either right or left handed, that is what I am referring to when I say dominant side. Even those who are ambidextrous have a preference otherwise they'd sit around for ten minutes trying to figure out which hand they want to pick their fork up with.

If you look at my previous post, I recommend NOT fighting dominant side forward. Why, because you'll have a weak side and your opponent will eventually expose it. Forcing yourself to put your weak hand forward will, in time, give you the ability to defend well from either position.

[SDJerry]

I know that the Elder Masters in Colorado continually stress practicing everything twice as much on your weaker side. They say to do this because "hes not always gonna be on your right side" and also to combat health problems associated with only using your right (like how baseball players and tennis players get bad elbows and shoulders from all the dominant handed repetitive motions they must preform).

On a side note... this month weve been learning the single ended staff form and I think ive been over doing the La Na Chas. Ive really done a number on my right knee dropping into reverse bow for the Na and shifting into forward for the Cha.

Do you guys have any pointers for reducing or preparing myself for knee torques like this in the future?....

Theres gonna be alot of spear down the road for me and Id like to prevent injury.

Watch your structure and make sure your knee always tracks with your foot. Looking down your knee should always be over your foot and never to one side or the other. When transitioning make sure you allow your foot to pivot and move so that it does not put strain on your knee. That's my two cents :)

[MasterKiller]

Is that really a Walt Whitman quote?

Wasnt he a writer, poet, and naturalist or something?

I guess its a joke that im not getting

It's not a joke. Think about what it means and relate that to your training.

[Facepalm]

Watch your structure and make sure your knee always tracks with your foot. Looking down your knee should always be over your foot and never to one side or the other. When transitioning make sure you allow your foot to pivot and move so that it does not put strain on your knee. That's my two cents :)

That makes sense.

I think I hurt myself doing the form on concrete with no shoes on making me unable to pivot my foot as well as I can on carpet or with shoes on (my feet arnt quite there yet :o).

:D Ill try to keep that in mind when practicing and maybe ill take it easy on the Na Cha's for a while.

Thanks

[tattooedmonk]

Yes, but you're fighting mother nature there. Most people, even with training, will still have stronger sides depending on the technique. You can minimize it, but it will still be there. Cool,
I dont believe that it is so much mother nature as it is laziness and bad habits.

[kwaichang]

My son is a stealth walker and can sneak up on anyone I am going to see if he can walk the rice paper without tearing it!!! Now on the subject if you are trained properly you should be able to do every technique from either side. Therefore there shouldnt be a dominant side. Also Facepalm I am not sure which guen form you speak of but there isnt a reverse bow in La Na Cha KC

[tattooedmonk]

Everyone is either right or left handed, that is what I am referring to when I say dominant side. Even those who are ambidextrous have a preference otherwise they'd sit around for ten minutes trying to figure out which hand they want to pick their fork up with.

If you look at my previous post, I recommend NOT fighting dominant side forward. Why, because you'll have a weak side and your opponent will eventually expose it. Forcing yourself to put your weak hand forward will, in time, give you the ability to defend well from either position.I am ambidexterous, for me it just depends on which side of the plate the fork is on. :D

I understand what you mean though.

To reprogram the brain and the kinetic chain anything that we do predominately with oneside we should train ourselves to do with the opposite side. Then we eliminate weaknesses within our overall thinking feeling and doing.

[tattooedmonk]

My son is a stealth walker and can sneak up on anyone I am going to see if he can walk the rice paper without tearing it!!! Now on the subject if you are trained properly you should be able to do every technique from either side. Therefore there shouldnt be a dominant side. Also Facepalm I am not sure which guen form you speak of but there isnt a reverse bow in La Na Cha KCLMAO!! That would be cool!!!

I agree whole heartedly.

I think he is refering to the cross step ( la) step through reverse bow (na) and then the forward bow( cha).

[Facepalm]

Im talking about "Se mien pa fang kuen" (how its spelled in my manual)

On the "Na" we are told to drop into reverse bow stance as we "Take" the weapon down horizontally and then spring into forward bow stance as we "Cha"

What stance should I drop into for the "Na"?

I guess a horse stance would be a little more knee friendly.

[tattooedmonk]

Im talking about "Se mien pa fang kuen" (how its spelled in my manual)

On the "Na" we are told to drop into reverse bow stance as we "Take" the weapon down horizontally and then spring into forward bow stance as we "Cha"

What stance should I drop into for the "Na"?

I guess a horse stance would be a little more knee friendly. You are talking about the cross step ( twisted stance / female stance)( la) reverse bow ( na) and forwardbow (cha) Correct?

Like SD jerry said you have to make sure that your hip knee and ankle are in alignment. Dont go down so far until you have that type of flexibility.

[tattooedmonk]

Bent monk!!!!! Congratulations!!!!:D

[Facepalm]

You are talking about the crossstep ( la) reverse bow ( na) and forwardbow (cha) Correct?

Like SD jerry said you have to make sure that your hip knee and ankle are in alignment. Dont go down so far until you have that type of flexibility.

Yea,

Thats how its taught here.

Thanks for the pointers guys. Im pretty good at getting low but I guess my body isnt ready for this type of movement yet.

Ill take this form slow and more reserved so I can build a base for all the awesome spear forms coming up next year.

I really never thought Id like spears so much but It just feels awesome to thrust that thing.

One of the BBs said he heard that GGMICM could do a "Na" and splinter the white waxwood staff with the force of his drop.

Some more fun stories :D

[tattooedmonk]

Yea,

Thats how its taught here.

Thanks for the pointers guys. Im pretty good at getting low but I guess my body isnt ready for this type of movement yet.

Ill take this form slow and more reserved so I can build a base for all the awesome spear forms coming up next year.

I really never thought Id like spears so much but It just feels awesome to thrust that thing.

One of the BBs said he heard that GGMICM could do a "Na" and splinter the white waxwood staff with the force of his drop.

Some more fun stories :DCool, Thats how I remember it too.

You are right you should take it slow .

The movement is complexed and puts a great stress on the right knee. You must use proper body mechanics.

Spear is an awesome weapon.

Many cool stories.

[Lucas]

splitting your training time for both sides

along the lines of the old adage, practice one technique a thousand times, or a thousand one time....

we've all heard it

it also makes a HUGE difference if you plan on fighting competatively as to how your going to train, and what your game plan is going to be, generally speaking.

everyone should be competent with either side, but most all of us will have a stronger side regardless of what we do.

[kwaichang]

I will review it on DVD but a reverse bow for Na doesnt make sense KC

[kwaichang]

Just Reviewed it to be sure it is a Ma Bu that makes sense for power generation KC

[tattooedmonk]

Just Reviewed it to be sure it is a Ma Bu that makes sense for power generation KCDVD?? who is performing the form??
The way it is taught in the west it is reverse bow like face palm said. I doubt Master Sin would care if you did it either way. I also think that it would depend on the circumstances as to which stance you would use.

I do it with more of a sant ti stance for power generation. I split the difference.:D

I noticed that a lot of the stances and moves between the two schools are drastically different. This makes it very difficult to discuss forms techniques etc. because one side or the other is going to think that they are right. :D

[kwaichang]

Master Leonard and another 6th degree master The purpose of Na is to disarm and the Reverse Bow is a defensive posture loading to promote power to the Cha technique while there is more power generation for the Cha with a previous reverse bow , Rotational power from the hips will generate more focus due to the path of the spear or Guen KC

[tattooedmonk]

Master Leonard and another 6th degree master The purpose of Na is to disarm and the Reverse Bow is a defensive posture loading to promote power to the Cha technique while there is more power generation for the Cha with a previous reverse bow , Rotational power from the hips will generate more focus due to the path of the spear or Guen KCIs this a standardized DVD available to students???

Are you saying that you shouldnt or can not use na in a reverse bow stance for it to be effective???

[kwaichang]

Weapons are for fighting the transition of RB to Bow is long and is likely to be countered due to the transition time, My feling though is the RB has been dropped to the point that it has lost its Biomechanical function. In other words it should be like a Forward bow but in reverse. KC

[tattooedmonk]

Weapons are for fighting the transition of RB to Bow is long and is likely to be countered due to the transition time, My feling though is the RB has been dropped to the point that it has lost its Biomechanical function. In other words it should be like a Forward bow but in reverse. KC I see how that can happen. So you think that the way most people practice reverse bow is to low ??

What about the DVD?? Is this a standardized DVD of the material??

[kwaichang]

Yes to make it more CMA in appearance and for Muscle conditioning it is too low why would a RB be any lower than a FB.?? The DVD is standardized and I also have the form from Tournaments etc. KC

[kwaichang]

Going to go Roll be back later KC

[tattooedmonk]

Yes to make it more CMA in appearance and for Muscle conditioning it is too low why would a RB be any lower than a FB.?? The DVD is standardized and I also have the form from Tournaments etc. KCI agree. I do not understand why if there is a standardized way to do all the material ,why there is such great difference in the way almost everyone does it, also why the DVD is not available for all that practice SD east coast or west coast???

[Lucas]

why there is such great difference in the way almost everyone does it

thats because of the cma roots. its manditory so that we can all have something to fight about !

;):p

in topic of a RB, id say it still comes down to mobility and applicability.

[kwaichang]

Are you speaking of Joint mobility ? Or what and can you apply a RB in effective combat? KC

[tattooedmonk]

thats because of the cma roots. its manditory so that we can all have something to fight about !

;):p

in topic of a RB, id say it still comes down to mobility and applicability.OH, you know that!!!! . It transends CMA and martial arts.:rolleyes::eek:;):p:cool::D

[kwaichang]

Sorry I was responding to Lucas KC

[Lucas]

I was pretty vague I suppose. i have a bad habbit of that. :o

i was speaking in regards to the depth of the stance and its impact on the mobility of footwork, also the depth of your stance being in connection to the application based around your footwork and stance use.

of course im speaking in generalities, as i dont know shaolin do, but i do practice shaolin so im pretty sure its basically the same or similar material in essence.

[Lucas]

OH, you know that!!!! . It transends CMA and martial arts.:rolleyes::eek:;):p:cool::D

hehe ya, imagine all the fights that started in house because training brothers were arguing how to do something two different ways when in actuality their teacher probably just showed them each a different method !

gotta get the figthin in somehow ;)

[tattooedmonk]

hehe ya, imagine all the fights that started in house because training brothers were arguing how to do something two different ways when in actuality their teacher probably just showed them each a different method !

gotta get the figthin in somehow ;)Exactly!!! Some of the continued arguments about such small stuff could be avoided if the powers that be would step up and say something, then everyone could go back to training and fighting about important stuff.;):rolleyes::p:eek::D

[kwaichang]

Everyone wants to be a big fish so if something is different from the norm they become special. I look at the application for say La Na Cha and then I look at the Bio-mechanics to see if it is sound that is how I analyse techniques and their credibility. KC

[goju]

Don't many sport MMA fighters preach weight forward stance, or at least equal, to make one less susceptible to take downs? Even though MORE susceptible to other things?
yeah i was taught a smilar stance at the gym i went to its a horribly dumb way to fight your lead leg is exposed to much and you cant move in and out quickly

[goju]

IMO The issue with fighting dominant side forward is that you puts your power up front and exposed. Most people who train dominant side forward have the same problem you mention, they can not fight with the weaker side forward.

Any good fighter will notice that dominant side forward and start attacking that lead leg. What happens is eventually those kicks add up so you switch stances to protect the leg. Now all you have is the side forward you don't train and that's where it starts to get ugly.

That's what I was taught and I've used those tactis so I know they work.
actually i didnt say i cant fight with that the other side forward i just said i can only fight in the south paw stance now mobility wise it feels to uncomfortable to fight with my dominant right hand and leg back
and the way power side forward works is you do the majority of the attacking with the lead and stay on your opponents weak side which is usually their lead
and because this is rare for someone to fight like this its unlikely unless they are psychic that they will know that you have your power side forward

[goju]

Yes, but you're fighting mother nature there. Most people, even with training, will still have stronger sides depending on the technique. You can minimize it, but it will still be there.
no matter how much you train it it likey one side is going to be stronger than the other even slightly
i caneasily knock some one out with my left leg and hand as i can my right
however most people are orthodox fighters and rely too much on their power hand thefore if you stay on a right handed person weak lead side and you have your power side forward you can stick to this side and you have your power going against his weak

this was an old school boxing technique that seems to be lost now though even top mma fighters are always circling the wrong direction and moving into their opponents
power hand i think one of the few who dosnt is anderson silva

even bruce lee reconized the usefulness of having your power side forward
think about is
your dominant hand is allready strong there fore you should keep it in the lead and rely more on that torque you get from your hips by keeping your weaker in the rear thereby making your weaker side just as strong as your right

[goju]

and those san sho fighters got slaughtered by the muay thai fighters because they werent as good as them not what stance they adopted dosnt matter what side you have forward if your opponent technique is better than yours :)

[MasterKiller]

and those san sho fighters got slaughtered by the muay thai fighters because they werent as good as them not what stance they adopted dosnt matter what side you have forward if your opponent technique is better than yours :)

Why do left-handed pitchers give right-handed batters such problems? The ball still comes over the same plate.

[goju]

baseball has nothing to remotely do with fighting

[kwaichang]

It is the angle of the entry much like the elusive lead. Or Jab all Biomechanical movements are inter related. To have a dominant lead and realising it is a weakness , and lends itself to under developement of the other side. Whether intentional or not KC

[goju]

nope sorry if you think baseball and fighting are similar than theres something wrong with you you can use all the bio mechanical talk you want lol its still a dumb analogy

[One student]

Master Leonard and another 6th degree master The purpose of Na is to disarm and the Reverse Bow is a defensive posture loading to promote power to the Cha technique while there is more power generation for the Cha with a previous reverse bow , Rotational power from the hips will generate more focus due to the path of the spear or Guen KC

Don't know if this helps or hurts, but when I learned the spear forms in early 80's, I distinctly remember, and have done it that way since: la or lan (cross step behind), na (step into horse stance as lower the spear to horizontal position), cha (thrust into forward bow stance), and return to the na horse position. Some variations within the forms (one hand or two hand thrusts, sometimes the stances change) but that is basically it.

So, first time I ever heard of "reverse bow" for na position, was here now. And I had a rep for being very form technical, I think.

So, I pulled out my notes. Not my notes actually, but GMS's handwritten ones, with the Chinese terms and characters and his "fine points" for each move; and then, I was lead to believe, EML's hand written additions, all dated "7-25-80."

GMS: Only says, I think translating the Chinese, "cha pu chung ping lan, na, cha chiang." "In the middle of a cross step, do a horizontal deflect, take, and thrust the spear."

EML (I'm pretty sure), after the opening for example of the first spear form (Chiang Su Lian Si, or "Spear Fighting Techniques"):

"Bring the right leg behind the left leg, while bringing the spear to the LA position. Step into a horse stance with the left leg and bring the spear into the NA position. Change the stance to a left bow and thrust the spear to the CHA position and go back into a horse stance."

So at least ORIGINALLY, and for me still, and per the original written descriptions, no "reverse bow" for na.

Just some historical perspective. No doubt changed by someone. And my video tape of the spear forms, made also in the mid to late 80's by EML and another contemporary, also has horse for na.

[tattooedmonk]

Sorry, wrong form.:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

It is the angle of the entry much like the elusive lead. Or Jab all Biomechanical movements are inter related. To have a dominant lead and realising it is a weakness , and lends itself to under developement of the other side. Whether intentional or not KC I agree.

Can you believe this kid( goju)??:rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

He just wants to disagree with me, I experience that alot, but like you said I am a little strong willed that way. Maybe I should go back to Aikido haha. KC

[goju]

yes because every body knows how baseball and fighting go hand in hand lolwhy i know many top mma fighters who practice their pitch to get read for a fight


kwai your lateral roation of the hip over the x axis across the why times two divided by three blah blah blah dont help you win your argument it just makes you seem like your talking out of your hole(and no not your mouth)
facts are fact you cant compare pitching to striking in combat it has nothing to do with it and even mentioning the two together is extremely dumb

but go ahead keep thinking AGAIN you guys know what your talking about

lol baseball

[goju]

facepalm outside of myself and yao you are the only person who post on this thread that is normal you know that lol

[SDJerry]

actually i didnt say i cant fight with that the other side forward i just said i can only fight in the south paw stance now mobility wise it feels to uncomfortable to fight with my dominant right hand and leg back
and the way power side forward works is you do the majority of the attacking with the lead and stay on your opponents weak side which is usually their lead
and because this is rare for someone to fight like this its unlikely unless they are psychic that they will know that you have your power side forward

I would say you probably can’t defend yourself properly from a side you feel "uncomfortable" with. You can only attack your opponents weak side if they train in a similar method that you do... dominant side forward. This would make their left side which is naturally more uncoordinated their weak side because they never train it.

Now, you may get lucky against the average Joe or a lesser experience fighter but if you're lucky enough to cross hands with someone who knows what they are doing... you're gonna get picked apart. You don't have to be psychic either because here is how it would go down. They're gonna start tagging that lead leg and if you're a good fighter you'll check it... but I'm betting you won't. So eventually that lead leg starts to hurt and your body's natural reaction is to pull it back to protect it. Your opponent will likely notice and come in with a few combos to test the waters. When you start flailing that left hand around trying to block his attacks...... he'll know he's got your number ;)

[Baqualin]

facepalm outside of myself and yao you are the only person who post on this thread that is normal you know that lol

Why are you so arrogant:confused:
BQ

[kwaichang]

BQL hey man we are all arogant in some way but most people know when to stop being that way so we can learn. He has no impulse control and words just fly out of his mouth. Or hes dumb KC

[Judge Pen]

no matter how much you train it it likey one side is going to be stronger than the other even slightly


Hey, we agree on something! I love you goju....one armed- man hug.

[Judge Pen]

La Na Cha.....I've been taught by two diferent teachers and it's always been a horse.

I agree with KC, the low depth of the RB is mostly for training purposes, but functionality of the RB doesn't have to be that low unless there is a "pull down" applcation such as in joint lock from our 4th book of Hua.

The way I see it, it is similar to our one-step sparring techniques. It is taught with large sweeping movements, but the real application is a quick subtle and small variation. But it's trained big at first to overemphasis the technique. It is harder to go small to big than big to small. The reverse bow is the same way for the most part with the added benefit of increasing range of motion, fleixibilty and strength.

[Facepalm]

Well that makes me more optimistic about not hurting my knee in the future.

The transition from horse to bow is one im very very used to by now

There are forms (like Lou Tien) with reverse bow to bow transitions but your not dropping into that reverse bow while whipping a staff to the ground and then transitioning forward into a spear thrust.

That motion was killing my knee.:(

Its good to have a place where I can get a variety of SD info and tips.:cool:

Thanks alot guys:D

[Facepalm]

facepalm outside of myself and yao you are the only person who post on this thread that is normal you know that lol


Wow

No ones ever described me as normal before

lol

[kwaichang]

Ok now I have to ask where is the reverse bow in Luo Tien ?? KC

[Facepalm]

Ok now I have to ask where is the reverse bow in Luo Tien ?? KC

They are all in the first section

After the rising with dynamic tension ( a la san he) in bird stance,

the third deflect double finger strike, you know the one directed to the left

We are told to step with the right leg out to the right into reverse bow as we circle block and then spring forward into left bow stance as we finger strike.

Before the first hook elbow finger strike after you double finger strike to both sides with a call you step back with the right leg into reverse bow then circle block and double finger strike as you shift forward into bow.

Also after the first hook left step forward elbow finger strike into right bow then the retreating deflections into a low bird stance with a beak back and strike with the right palm. As you rise up from the low bird stance you are effectively in a reverse bow as you circle block and then shift forward into left bow again for the double finger strike

Also this seems to fit into the bird form descriptions that TTM put up regarding the way bird style involves darting in and out.

Well it seems that way to me anyway :D

[tattooedmonk]

They are all in the first section

After the rising with dynamic tension ( a la san he) in bird stance,

the third deflect double finger strike, you know the one directed to the left

We are told to step with the right leg out to the right into reverse bow as we circle block and then spring forward into left bow stance as we finger strike.

Before the first hook elbow finger strike after you double finger strike to both sides with a call you step back with the right leg into reverse bow then circle block and double finger strike as you shift forward into bow.

Also after the first hook left step forward elbow finger strike into right bow then the retreating deflections into a low bird stance with a beak back and strike with the right palm. As you rise up from the low bird stance you are effectively in a reverse bow as you circle block and then shift forward into left bow again for the double finger strike

Also this seems to fit into the bird form descriptions that TTM put up regarding the way bird style involves darting in and out.

Well it seems that way to me anyway :D All four of those should be in a sparring stance/ bow stance, if I remember correctly( just did the form). There is a reverse bow after that, after you cross the arms in front of your chest and finger thrust out to the (L&R), right before you circle the hands around and squat.

[Facepalm]

Do they make you guys squawk for these forms on the east coast?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Do they make you guys squawk for these forms on the east coast?

Real men never squawk. They crow.

Bangarang Peter!!

[Facepalm]

Real men never squawk. They crow.

Bangarang Peter!!


LOL

But Im comfortable enough in my manhood to tweet even

[tattooedmonk]

He just wants to disagree with me, I experience that alot, but like you said I am a little strong willed that way. Maybe I should go back to Aikido haha. KC Lmao!!!

No Sh!t.

Unbelievable.:rolleyes::eek:;)

Lets see guys who have doing it under ten years combined or guys that have been doing it for over 60 yrs combined....HMMMM?:D

[tattooedmonk]

Do they make you guys squawk for these forms on the east coast? LMAO

good question though.

There are valid reasons as to why you should make the audible sounds when practicing forms.

You ever hear of the six healing sounds or tones??

[Facepalm]

LMAO

good question though.

There are valid reasons as to why you should make the audible sounds when practicing forms.

You ever hear of the six healing sounds or tones??

Ive never heard of them but from what ive heard and been taught about meditation, colors, and seasons and what not I wouldnt be suprised if there are also sounds that correspond.

Theres this one kid (just got first black) though who lets out a really loud hoot or a pigeon coo or something like that when he does these and you can tell that hes really pleased with himself and it just makes me want to smack him upside the head ( which i guess i could do to him next time we spar ) but hes not at the same school as me :(

Me and my friends have an inside joke about squawking at b**ches so I always make that noise and laugh a little to myself. :)

[tattooedmonk]

Ive never heard of them but from what ive heard and been taught about meditation, colors, and seasons and what not I wouldnt be suprised if there are also sounds that correspond.

Theres this one kid (just got first black) though who lets out a really loud hoot or a pigeon coo or something like that when he does these and you can tell that hes really pleased with himself and it just makes me want to smack him upside the head ( which i guess i could do to him next time we spar ) but hes not at the same school as me :(

Me and my friends have an inside joke about squawking at b**ches so I always make that noise and laugh a little to myself. :)there is. Have you done the Hua Tuos five animal frolics???

You should smack him. Anyone that is that proud or amused with themelves should be!!:p:D

If he was at your school he would give plenty of reasons to smck him all the time!!! Consider him luck.:p;):D

[Judge Pen]

Do they make you guys squawk for these forms on the east coast?

No. Two different east coast teachers. No squawking or crowing or whatever.

[kwaichang]

I was taught to Kaw during certain points of the form. But no reverse bow, Its hard to dart in and out from a low reverse bow IMHO KC

[One student]

For what it's worth, again those who were privileged (me included) to be in the very first class where those three bird forms were taught, by MH, whose specialty was bird -- no squawking or other noises. Unless he was holding that back and added it in later when I wasn't around, someone else came along and added it. Like reverse bows where they don't belong. It does drive me crazy when people who have no business doing so make their own changes to material taught by someone far more qualified than they are, for no other reason I can think of but ego, to make themselves stand out. Seems kind of arrogant to me.

Not that there aren't appropriate places for sounds, like in the shien tien chi training, or in Hsing Ie (the laughing/taunting), and Liu Hsing. Or kia. Just (not that I know of) in the bird forms. At least not originally.

On second thought . . . I can't say that once MH left, GMS couldn't add squawking, or more likely, "caw"-ing. That would be a different story, in which case I would be wrong. Anyone know, or can trace back, to first person who ever taught any squawking in the bird forms? Then maybe we can get to the bottom of it (althought that hasn't seemed to work with anything else).

[One student]

Sorry, wrong form.:D:cool:

So, which spear form has na position in reverse bow? Other than once or twice here and there, I'll give you that (near opening of Lo Family Spear for example), but as part of the standard sequence.

[tattooedmonk]

So, which spear form has na position in reverse bow? Other than once or twice here and there, I'll give you that (near opening of Lo Family Spear for example), but as part of the standard sequence.We were talking about the single ended staff form. Thats all:D

[tattooedmonk]

I was taught to Kaw during certain points of the form. But no reverse bow, Its hard to dart in and out from a low reverse bow IMHO KCMe too.:D:cool:

[One student]

[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;944336]We were talking about the single ended staff form. Thats all:D[/QUOTe

Sorry. That's one must have come out in my long hiatus. To further demonstrate my ignorance: what is a single ended staff? And while you're at it, who first taught it, and when, if I may ask?

[Facepalm]

The single ended staff or white waxwood staff or kuen is just a spear shaft without the spear head.

I guess its like beginner spear for brown belts

[Facepalm]

You can also use the skinny end more like a staff whereas with a spear head you might break it off if say you wacked at somebodies foot and missed.

Your supposed to sharpen the skinny end though so you can stab with it

[goju]

I would say you probably can’t defend yourself properly from a side you feel "uncomfortable" with. You can only attack your opponents weak side if they train in a similar method that you do... dominant side forward. This would make their left side which is naturally more uncoordinated their weak side because they never train it.

Now, you may get lucky against the average Joe or a lesser experience fighter but if you're lucky enough to cross hands with someone who knows what they are doing... you're gonna get picked apart. You don't have to be psychic either because here is how it would go down. They're gonna start tagging that lead leg and if you're a good fighter you'll check it... but I'm betting you won't. So eventually that lead leg starts to hurt and your body's natural reaction is to pull it back to protect it. Your opponent will likely notice and come in with a few combos to test the waters. When you start flailing that left hand around trying to block his attacks...... he'll know he's got your number ;)
no like i said the majority of people including fighters martial artist etc etc are right handed and they keep there right back and their left forward exposing their weak side
if you stay on that side you cant take them apart easier its actually an old boxing technique you never circle into your opponent power hand
oh lord here we go with another guy who thinks he knows somethingthere is no way to know wether your opponent has his power side forward or back however most peopel fight with their power hand back. youd be suprised the wierd look you get in boxing gyms when you say your a right handed southpaw

in fact one of the guys here sparred with me with my power side forward and i wasnt picked apart

[goju]

Hey, we agree on something! I love you goju....one armed- man hug.
LOL BOUT TIME!!
your semi normal ill give you that jk

[goju]

Lmao!!!

No Sh!t.

Unbelievable.:rolleyes::eek:;)

Lets see guys who have doing it under ten years combined or guys that have been doing it for over 60 yrs combined....HMMMM?:D
yeah but thats sixty years of doing it wrong combined with ten years of doing it right lol

[goju]

and i feel uncomfortable stance wise i my left hand and leg is only slightly weaker than the right
and and for you theory to work they have to be able to hit me first

i dont check kicks being that i beleive thats a stupid thing to do
i jam or move out of the way usually the latter goju ryus elusive we dont meet force with force as a thai boxer would check a kick we move out of kicking range in fact thats what tai sabaki(body evasion) is for :)

[shen ku]

i have always been taught the "kaw" on the birds,,,, one of my teachers was out from under master green and the other was stright from GMS.....

[shen ku]

oh and i have been doing the "kaw" since 1986 or 1987?

[Judge Pen]

I know that several forms have sounds included in them. My current teacher doesn't emphasize them. My first teacher taught them (but not on Lou Tien).

I wonder how common animal sounds in forms is in other Chinese (or Indonesian blended Chinese) martial arts?

[One student]

Are you referring to "Se Pa Kun" the 4/8 Staff form taught in 2nd to 1st brown?

Circa 1974-75 MH showed/taught/?? EML & EMS the 3 SL Birds on the farm.
the sound he used sounded like " Kaaaaaaaaaaaaa. (almost like an eagle screaming as it would swoop down on its prey) ie Decend from Heaven. Sometimes MH would refer to the form as a Giant Eagle attack frm the sky

Just my $ 0.02 IMHO
OTD

On my set of notes GMS gave out when they first taught out Se Pa Kuen and Hai Loong Chang, he drew a "rough" picture of the staff intended for Se Pa Kuen, and it did taper. Can't really remember though it being referred to as a "single ended staff" though. But that was 20 years ago. I've always done it with a regular bo anyway. Still not remembering any reverse bow "na" postions, although some forward bow, side bow (?), cross leg, and even loose "sparring stance" na's. Like we said, things do seem to evolve, right or wrong, depending on the teacher -- and one's own memory.

Vaguely remembering when Birds first taught, to the "public," maybe an "optional," kind of like "you can do this here if you want" kind of thing, on the sound. And I guess it would be a "kaw" rather than a squawk (like Liu Hsing?).

Funny how discussion brings back forgotten memories.

[One student]

i have always been taught the "kaw" on the birds,,,, one of my teachers was out from under master green and the other was stright from GMS.....

I also was with M Green when Birds taught out, and I got them directly from MHT, worked with him (MBG) in and out of his class with them. I was also teaching my own class when they first became part of the mandatory rank advancement material. No sounds included. Must have been 83-86, when I had my school. Also have tape made in mid 80's, EML demo'ing Birds. No sounds. As opposed to Hsing Ie Linking Form, with "laughing/taunting" sound, on same tape. I'm really curious as to how that got started (and where I missed it).

[tattooedmonk]

Are these notes in Chinese with the English translation, like what is given out at the seminars now??

[kwaichang]

Off the sub, Look at WuDang Leg Skill at You tube tell me what you think KC

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPHyD-8opnY

[kwaichang]

Yes notice in the end how he blocks down like in Short form 1-30 ??? Looks like a Kara-te block sort of I can see why people who see 1-30 think it is Karate and not chinese MA. KC

[kwaichang]

See this. Whew

[tattooedmonk]

Yes notice in the end how he blocks down like in Short form 1-30 ??? Looks like a Kara-te block sort of I can see why people who see 1-30 think it is Karate and not chinese MA. KC Yes I did.;):cool:

[tattooedmonk]

See this. Whew She is Hot as H-ell!! I Dig it!!

[kwaichang]

she will be mine soon I will have her KC But I like Black

[tattooedmonk]

she will be mine soon I will have her KC But I like BlackSWEET!!! Once you go black you never go back!!:p:eek::D:cool:

[goju]

cough cough ****s ****s cough

[sean_stonehart]

Off the sub, Look at WuDang Leg Skill at You tube tell me what you think KC

Taekwondo/Wushu

[kwaichang]

Wushuers dont hit pads like that I say they can fight , BTW TKD as prac today is is a mish mash of Japanese Karate and weastern boxing with Korean Kicks KC

[One student]

Are these notes in Chinese with the English translation, like what is given out at the seminars now??

YES, CHinese with translation; but I only have for the fist spear form. I understand there is/was a set for the second, and I never heard of any for the third or fourth. And someone went to the trouble of typing GMS's writing, so there is both.

[One student]

Wushuers dont hit pads like that I say they can fight , BTW TKD as prac today is is a mish mash of Japanese Karate and weastern boxing with Korean Kicks KC

I don't care what he does, I'd be happy to kick, sweep, and jump like that. I say sign him up for Hua.

[goju]

taekwondo always had karate in it kc

[kwaichang]

Modern TKD as developed by Choi has Shotokan that is why the styles are so similar, The older ones like Chung do Kwan and Tang Soo Do and other temple arts were based upon Tae Gyun KC

[kwaichang]

David Carradine, Farrah Fawcet, Ed Mc Mahon, Michael Jackson , and now Billy Mays. Who;s next? KC

[sean_stonehart]

Wushuers dont hit pads like that I say they can fight , BTW TKD as prac today is is a mish mash of Japanese Karate and weastern boxing with Korean Kicks KC

Actually TKD today is a Korean distillation of viable martial arts it based on... Shotokan to the larger extent & Shorin-ryu to a lesser. I spent my first 15 years in the MA learning & teaching it as well as teaching it recently.

The current Kukkiwon connected TKD isn't much more than foot tagging, hard, but foot tagging. There's been no definative proof of Tae Kyon actually being a formative base other than Choi's word on it's connection. All of the heads of the six original kwons have no indigenous KMA in them. Most or all were JMA trained & belted.

But TKD history aside... that's what the guy kicks like. It's like the TKD they teach in Dengfeng.

[Yao Sing]

David Carradine, Farrah Fawcet, Ed Mc Mahon, Michael Jackson , and now Billy Mays. Who;s next? KC

Don't forget Shek Kin, I think he started the recent celebrity death trend.

[kwaichang]

Right all within 2 weeks. It is my understanding that TKD taught is as you say a distillation but Choi supposedly got training from Funikoshi KC

[goju]

well a genawakai karate dojo is near my place dont knw how long its been around but gonna go check it out see if i can train with some other karateka

[sean_stonehart]

Don't forget Shek Kin, I think he started the recent celebrity death trend.

You're right... it was SK that did.

[sean_stonehart]

Right all within 2 weeks. It is my understanding that TKD taught is as you say a distillation but Choi supposedly got training from Funikoshi KC

Oh, Choi did train Shotokan with Funakoshi & earned a nidan from him. Once Choi was kicked out of South Korean TKD, the Kukkiwon started coming up with the new forms (Palgwe, Taeguk, Chong-ahn [I think that's the name]) to replace the Kibon, Hyung-ahn/Pyung-ahn forms which are direct translations of Taikyoku and Heian/Pinan forms. The named forms stayed the same. In Tang Soo Do, they still practice those forms & in some of the Kwan schools (Ji Do, Chung Do, etc...) they practice them along side some of the new forms.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Like reverse bows where they don't belong. It does drive me crazy when people who have no business doing so make their own changes to material taught by someone far more qualified than they are, for no other reason I can think of but ego, to make themselves stand out. Seems kind of arrogant to me.


Disagree 100%. IF you change a form, it's not always ego. Sometimes the application changes the form, sometimes body training changes the form. Sometimes you change a form because what works for some other dude doesn't work as well for you. Sometimes the form changes in your hands and you don't even realize it.

The way I see it, if your form doesn't change, you're probably not improving, and you're probably not learning anything. My forms are my forms. Not GM Sin's. Not my teacher's, not his teacher's. They're mine. Static forms are wushu forms. Great forms, no martial sensibility whatsoever. Just like that Wudang guy who was hitting hte bags. I've seen some dudes who can hit bags pretty **** awesome, but couldn't hit another dude unless he was holding the bags...LOL.

I was training some wushu/Longfist from a dude, and he did an introductory bow exactly like Chin kung fu hu chien/Chie Chien, but much smoother. Transitioned from the arms to the hips and left knee raised to a cat ("cat" not stressed at present in SD bow) then slide out to bow stance and pull up to natural with hands chambered at sides--1 very fluid motion. So now my bow in those two forms is the same one I did in wushu, lol. Same movements, better body mechanics. Someone called me out on changing the form, and I was like......ok, whatever. (translation: Train your own stuff, get over it):D. I didn't change the form. I changed, so the form changed. I'm pretty sure forms changed under GM Sin. After training bJJ and a little Judo, you see just how many throws are in the core material--and why it would be helpful to wear a gi if practicing the material by its literal interpretation, since gi's hold up so much better--(but in Shaolin-Tao's defense, gi's do suck for forms, big time).

Nobody ever trains in a style so to speak. You train yourself. You're your own style. I'm not pure SD. I've seen/practiced w/ tons of dudes. So, I'm not a purist by any means in any style. It's always my interpretation, because it's my body. I'm integrating stand up grappling with tai chi. So it's not pure tai chi, but it is remarkably applicable against non-cooperative opponents. My roundhouse has picked up Muay Thai elements, so it's more of a round kick now. Lands 2X as hard, and better for close-in fighting, since my shin nicely fits in most people's ribs---just the right size. If I want to get in close, I use a common hand-to-ear block I picked up in MMA classes. bEtter for what I'm doing. I added that into some of my monkey movements, since it's the same motion wushu monkey dudes use for monkey antics....only, mine is applicable...L"OL.

I'm not someone who thinks a form has to look exactly like the application, even though I think the short forms look exactly like the applications. (4-7 look like foot-sweep throws to me, almost straight out of sanshou/judo or jujitsu). My tai chi took on some of hte C.C. Chen aspects I learned. My footwork improved a lot in the little wushu training I did. SD made my stances freakin' great though....but it's footwork does leave something to be desired, at times. My Chen 18 has a little of the bits of Chen 60 I learned elsewhere. I'm sure some SD "purists" would call me out on that, but ****, man. Who cares? If it works better for me, it works better. Sometimes my forms change a little, but then change back. Sometimes my favorite movements change for the better and become something else--at least in my head they do:D. Nobody has a 100% claim on effectiveness, and SD has plenty of "ineffective theories" IMO. So do most others, by the way.

I mean....come on. There's a one-handed RoadHouse Patrick Swayze "rip out the throat" maneuver in 3rd bird...LOL. From an underhanded snatch, much less.
100% effective from that position....I'm thinking no. 100% untrainable, 100% impractical. I still do the "technique", but seriously...LOL.

[Facepalm]

What you dont think you can snatch someones throut out eagle claw style :rolleyes:
lol
:D
Isnt that easy?:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Disagree 100%. IF you change a form, it's not always ego. Sometimes the application changes the form, sometimes body training changes the form. Sometimes you change a form because what works for some other dude doesn't work as well for you. Sometimes the form changes in your hands and you don't even realize it.

The way I see it, if your form doesn't change, you're probably not improving, and you're probably not learning anything. My forms are my forms. Not GM Sin's. Not my teacher's, not his teacher's. They're mine. Static forms are wushu forms. Great forms, no martial sensibility whatsoever. Just like that Wudang guy who was hitting hte bags. I've seen some dudes who can hit bags pretty **** awesome, but couldn't hit another dude unless he was holding the bags...LOL.

I was training some wushu/Longfist from a dude, and he did an introductory bow exactly like Chin kung fu hu chien/Chie Chien, but much smoother. Transitioned from the arms to the hips and left knee raised to a cat ("cat" not stressed at present in SD bow) then slide out to bow stance and pull up to natural with hands chambered at sides--1 very fluid motion. So now my bow in those two forms is the same one I did in wushu, lol. Same movements, better body mechanics. Someone called me out on changing the form, and I was like......ok, whatever. (translation: Train your own stuff, get over it):D. I didn't change the form. I changed, so the form changed. I'm pretty sure forms changed under GM Sin. After training bJJ and a little Judo, you see just how many throws are in the core material--and why it would be helpful to wear a gi if practicing the material by its literal interpretation, since gi's hold up so much better--(but in Shaolin-Tao's defense, gi's do suck for forms, big time).

Nobody ever trains in a style so to speak. You train yourself. You're your own style. I'm not pure SD. I've seen/practiced w/ tons of dudes. So, I'm not a purist by any means in any style. It's always my interpretation, because it's my body. I'm integrating stand up grappling with tai chi. So it's not pure tai chi, but it is remarkably applicable against non-cooperative opponents. My roundhouse has picked up Muay Thai elements, so it's more of a round kick now. Lands 2X as hard, and better for close-in fighting, since my shin nicely fits in most people's ribs---just the right size. If I want to get in close, I use a common hand-to-ear block I picked up in MMA classes. bEtter for what I'm doing. I added that into some of my monkey movements, since it's the same motion wushu monkey dudes use for monkey antics....only, mine is applicable...L"OL.

I'm not someone who thinks a form has to look exactly like the application, even though I think the short forms look exactly like the applications. (4-7 look like foot-sweep throws to me, almost straight out of sanshou/judo or jujitsu). My tai chi took on some of hte C.C. Chen aspects I learned. My footwork improved a lot in the little wushu training I did. SD made my stances freakin' great though....but it's footwork does leave something to be desired, at times. My Chen 18 has a little of the bits of Chen 60 I learned elsewhere. I'm sure some SD "purists" would call me out on that, but ****, man. Who cares? If it works better for me, it works better. Sometimes my forms change a little, but then change back. Sometimes my favorite movements change for the better and become something else--at least in my head they do:D. Nobody has a 100% claim on effectiveness, and SD has plenty of "ineffective theories" IMO. So do most others, by the way.

I mean....come on. There's a one-handed RoadHouse Patrick Swayze "rip out the throat" maneuver in 3rd bird...LOL. From an underhanded snatch, much less.
100% effective from that position....I'm thinking no. 100% untrainable, 100% impractical. I still do the "technique", but seriously...LOL. I agree with most of this but, Since when doesnt pure Tai Chi Chuan have grappling / Chin Na in it??

Its not that SD has ineffective theories in it , it is the individual teachers and students who make SH!T up as they go along!!! I would rather hear someone say "I do not know" rather than some of the stupid @$$ SH!T I have heard people say.

As for the ripping throat application, that is just one of the infinate possibilities Not the most probable or realistic.;):eek::cool::D:D Try it as an underhand snatch of a punch instead or a grab of a piece of clothing or another part of the body.

Funny story......There was this guy who became the instructor /master of one of the schools and he said that his applications was the only one to be taught and that there were basically no other ones besides the ones he said. Most of them were completely impractical and inapplicable against a resisting opponent but because he was an AM 5th BB Everyone followed him blindly and never question his applications.:rolleyes:

I found this funny because his belief was contradictory to the idea that forms, techniques, etc. have multiple applications .

what might work for one person is not going to work for another.

This guy was so full of himself.....

[tattooedmonk]

What you dont think you can snatch someones throut out eagle claw style :rolleyes:
lol
:D
Isnt that easy?:rolleyes:Not really. You have to have really strong hands :D and be willing to do the stretch( of time in prison) if you did.:eek::p;)

[Facepalm]

Not really. You have to have really strong hands :D and be willing to do the stretch( of time in prison) if you did.:eek::p;)

I wasnt being serious

Another application that I find to be extremely difficult to pull off if at all possible is the bird break. There are also tons and tons of bird breaks in SD lower and brown belt material.

Is there an alternate application to this movement that would be easier to pull off other than full out breaking the wrist?


I need something to visualize and drill that could more easily be done to someone

[kwaichang]

!st let me say I agree with TTM and facepalm, but then I dont in some instances, however I also feel to change the form due to your personal desire to do so deviates further from the original intent of the form/move itself. It is like the old thing where 10 people are in a room and by the time the story is passed to the 10th person the story is unrecognisable. So are forms. The tech should be mastered in its purest form then applied in combat under different cicumstances that is how different applications are manifested . I do not think the form shopuld be changed for this reason though KC

[tattooedmonk]

I wasnt being serious

Another application that I find to be extremely difficult to pull off if at all possible is the bird break. There are also tons and tons of bird breaks in SD lower and brown belt material.

Is there an alternate application to this movement that would be easier to pull off other than full out breaking the wrist?


I need something to visualize and drill that could more easily be done to someone For the throat rip,Try grabbing a piece of their collar or shirt, underneath a punch etc.

Wrist break and a break/ release technique are two different things.

I know the application you are talking about .

Not very practical and not very applicable.

Think about the range of motion.

When someone grabs your wrist, reach underneath and grab their wrist, twist either clockwise or counter clockwise( depending on which side forward you are ) this should break/ release their grasp, then finish the technique like the sweep , front snap kick, etc.

[tattooedmonk]

!st let me say I agree with TTM and facepalm, but then I dont in some instances, however I also feel to change the form due to your personal desire to do so deviates further from the original intent of the form/move itself. It is like the old thing where 10 people are in a room and by the time the story is passed to the 10th person the story is unrecognisable. So are forms. The tech should be mastered in its purest form then applied in combat under different cicumstances that is how different applications are manifested . I do not think the form shopuld be changed for this reason though KC I do not agree with changing the form just to change the form.

However, if the movement and techniques in the form do not make sense then they need to be change for it to be applicable.

Also , what do you mean by "in it's purest form"??

I have seen Master Sin teach a form multiple ways and they are all supposed to be the "purest" way, how can that be if they are slightly different every time??.

I think the basic structure of the forms is what is meant to be followed ,as a guide. But how you see it and apply the techniques are up to you, as long as it works .

Adding extra flair into the form that wastes energy, is inapplicable and does not follow proper body mechanics , ranges of motion and physics is my biggest issue with teachers and students.

[kwaichang]

I too have seen GMT teach something differently but it is not typically a technique but a single move more often like a palm strike instead of a punch. The mechanics are the same but the outcome different at times. Lets talk about a technique for example the spinning technique to one knee in Tai Pang Sin Kune (sp) ?, anyway what do yopu feel the helicopter move is for ??
Also I feel that all movements or tech make sense we just need to dig harder for some than others. KC

[Lucas]

the shaolin that i practice is some pretty old material. over all the years these routines have been around, you can be sure the sets have been modified and updated accordingly.

with that said i have two ways i perform my sets. one way, the way that i show to others who want me to show a form, or if i were to teach the set to someone, is the way i was taught by my teacher, the way his teacher taught him and so on back into history, the traditional representation of the style and its routines.

then there is the way i have that is personal to me. the techniques are all there, but the range of motion is slightly tweeked, the depth/hight of the stances are also modified. all of the modifications ive made to my personal set are all based on my modern understanding of combat, the way people fight now, my personal experience, and the way my body likes to move.

it reminds me of something i once heard some shaolin monk or other say, which i wont nail on the head but i remember the message, essentially;

the essence of shaolin boxing is adaptability. to be able to adapt to your environment and to use what is available to succeed. this means that a shaolin boxers martial arts will be influenced by his surrounding area. the martial arts in his region, the cultural aspects, the regional crime and violence, etc. all come into play when we are developing ourselves as martial artists.

my version is much more wordy to be sure, but its the same message.

this is a huge aspect as to why people will change forms. usually though when someone does that, they will retain a 'pure' version of their form. pure being used in the sense that this was the way the form was passed onto them by their teachers, and will be retained with the goal of passing on the same material in the same fashion. minor details here and there will always be adjusted from person to person, but roughly the form will preserved be the same to pass on the way it was recieved.