Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

http://www.hsing-i.com/pa_kua/phist.html

I have read this account from other books on the subject depending on the lineage.

And most SD schools have a seperate Tai Chi class too. It's not until the advanced ranks are you required to learn tai chi as part of the normal curriculim.

[Fu-Pow]

I Hsing-Ie and Pa Kua are traditionally taught together even though they are very different, albeit complimentary, styles.

Despite what MK said I think that is actually quite common.


Most schools have a Tai Chi curiculim no matter what the underlying style is: CLF, long fist, hung gar, mantis etc.).

I think the reason for that is not to teach another style. It's that many of the so called "external" styles have lost their "internal" teachings. The result is an imbalance of Yang energy. Kung fu teachers see Tai Chi is a way to regain the mind/body balance. Most of the people that teach Taiji as an adjunct to an "external" kung fu style do not understand the martial application of Taiji very well. That see is more as a "health exercise" that compliments their kung fu. At least this has been my experience.


Now not all of these schools are bad. Not all of them are good either.

That's a very good point. And I think part of what makes them "good" or "bad" is how much they can diffferentiate between styles. The catch 22 however is that you have to understand the styles that you are teaching independently VERY WELL in order to keep them separate.

To use myself as an example, I learn Chen Taji from an expert in Chen Taiji. I learn CLF from an expert in Choy Lay Fut. When I try to use Taiji Jin in Choy Lay Fut I get reprimanded from my Choy Lay Fut teacher. When I try to use Choy Lay Fut Jin in Taiji I get knocked down by my Taiji teacher.

Some day I think that I could teach Chen Taiji AND Choy Lay Fut but only because I have taken the time to learn from SPECIALISTS in each of these styles and I am learning to appreciate the differences.

If I have my own school or organization someday I would make students decide. Do you want to do the Choy Lay Fut track or the Chen Taiji track? They would become specialists in one of these styles but not try to learn both at the same time as I have done because it can lead to a lot of confusion. (Kind of hypocritical, I know but I know from experience that it is difficult to pick up even two arts at once.) Once they have mastery over Choy Lay Fut or Taiji (after years and years of training) then they can go back and pick up aspects of the other art as learning something new can often reveal new aspects of something old.

As I understand it your typical Shaolin Do student is learning from teachers that are not "specialists" in any of the styles that they are teaching. They were not even trained by specialists in the style. Its like a viscious cycle, one generation to the next, until the styles kind of mush into a Cop Suey art.

You see what I'm saying?

Each generation of Shaolin-Do becomes like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy. Until you can no longer read the distinct words on the page.

I think thats what is partially upsetting kung fu people about Shaolin-Do. They have worked so hard to preserve and pass on a certain flavor or style of martial arts and they worry it will be lost once it passes into the hands of Chop Suey artists.

Sorry for the all the food analogies I must be getting hungry...almost lunch time! ;)

[Golden Tiger]

Don't you guys ever get frustrated that all people see online are the lesser quality schools? At least that's the vibe I seem to get.

Not really....I get more frustrated at the schools that post the videos. :(


And Fu, as sad as it makes me, I have to agree with many of the points you made. D*mn, that hurt.

[sean_stonehart]

Not really....I get more frustrated at the schools that post the videos. :(

Why? They're trying to generate interest & business in the community. Can't fault anybody for that.

However, if there's a discrepancy between the way "A" does set "X" & "B" does set "X" & "A" is supposed to have the correct version, why not show everybody that has seen "B" doing the set, how it's supposed to be done??

[wdl]

Each generation of Shaolin-Do becomes like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy. Until you can no longer read the distinct words on the page.


Fu, you make good points and most of them I agree with. Sadly it isn't just Shaolin-Do that becomes like a photocopy of a photocopy and so on.

-Will

[Radhnoti]

Not to jump on any kind of bandwagon here...but I think Fu-Pow was right on with his critique.

Adam Hsu makes similar points in some of his stuff I've read, and (if I recall correctly) he too says that even though he learned different styles at the same time he won't do the same with his students.

[Judge Pen]

Fu hit the nail on the head. :eek:

And Sean, I know what you are saying. I'm afraid that some people don't want the scrutiny.

[Fu-Pow]

Sorry to bring down the harshers on you guys. :(

It's not just Shaolin Do! There are many students of martial arts (some on this board) who jump around from style to style, never fully learning any one style.

The difference is that Shaolin Do has institutionalized this kind of learning and so becomes an easy target.

Here's the thing guys....the "viscious cycle" that I describe can end with YOU.

You SD guys could pick one (or two) style(s) that you are most interested in learning from what you've already learned.

Find out who the best teachers are and focus on becoming an expert in that one style.

If you are in an area that is lacking in teachers you might look at traveling and/or attending seminars that are in your area. I know of at least a few students that have become disciples that live nowhere near there teachers.

They learned by visiting and attending seminars and then visiting infrequently for corrections and such.

I'm not saying give up SD completely. If that's the best thing in your area then stick with it for the mean time.

But your goal should be to exceed your current teacher's knowledge in any ONE of the smattering of arts that you are currently learning.

Peace guys. :D

[wdl]

The difference is that Shaolin Do has institutionalized this kind of learning and so becomes an easy target.

Here's the thing guys....the "viscious cycle" that I describe can end with YOU.

You SD guys could pick one (or two) style(s) that you are most interested in learning from what you've already learned.

Find out who the best teachers are and focus on becoming an expert in that one style.

They learned by visiting and attending seminars and then visiting infrequently for corrections and such.


It's not exactly institutionalized because everyone is encouraged to specialize in something, generally speaking around here atleast(can't speak for other SD areas). Mostly once they've hit first black(about 3.5 years in).

I plan to do something similiar to what you describe. Once I decide what I like and what I want to focus on, I want to expose myself to as many different opinions on the subject as possible and deeply study and analyze it. Visiting, seminars, crossings hands, etc are all part of what I want to do.

-Will

[sean_stonehart]

Fu hit the nail on the head. :eek:

I know... I've been avoiding acknowledging it... ;)



And Sean, I know what you are saying. I'm afraid that some people don't want the scrutiny.

:eek:

[Judge Pen]

I do intend to do that with my SD background. Some SD people routinely focus their training and work with other MAs in the areas that they are interested in so they get a new perspective on thier forms and training. It's always good to get out there and learn with other people. WDL is correct. My teacher has no problem with me meeting other teachers and learning from them.

[Fu-Pow]

:)

Ten characters

[MonkeySlap Too]

The question to ask: is there any point in 'specializing' in any of the 'styles' taught at SD, since adimittdly, they are not taught by people who actually know and practice the style.

It just doesn't make any sense. Honestly, other than for folks living in a swordsman novel fantasy, I don't see anything in the SD literature to reccomend it for serious training. It would seem you would learn more bad habits that good habits. And if you are required to go outside the school to go 'deeper' into the subject - doesn't that seem like a warning right there? It's one thing to seek out other teachers of the same thing. It's another to seek out instructors to find what your missing, when your 'grandmaster' proclaims he has the true source of complete knowlege. (and we have seen from video clips that he moves EXACTLY like the other SD clips we have seen.0

Just food for thought. I'd be more interested in talking about the 'short forms.' Would anyone mind describing them how they are practised, etc.?

[Judge Pen]

I know the website and some articles say he is the grandmaster of All shaolin, 900 forms etc. I also know that his specialty is Golden Snake. I've never seen him do his specialty. I don't know if anyone has (if they have, they're not telline). It's possible that the way he moves is influenced by what his specialty is reported to be and that has trickled down into all of his forms. (And by move; I'm not talking about swimming with your pecs). So, maybe if someone wanted to specialize in Golden Snake this would be the place to go if he ever teaches any of his specialty out. Since he hasn't, it's a moot point.

Assuming, for arguments sake, that I wanted to specialize by seeking out another teacher. I like Hsing I, Hua (but I can't do it right), Pa Kua etc. I don't know of a teacher in my area that specialized in this. Knoxville is not the mecca of chinese martial arts. I have Pong Lai 3 hours in either direction and CLF 3 hours south. There's a wushu teacher in knoxville teaching BaGua and Chen Tai Chi. There's Wah Lum. And there's SD. Of the local choices, SD is preferrable to me. If I moved elsewhere where more local options were convenient, then I might decide to empty my cup and try something new.

Fact is, I really enjoy my training. We train hard, spar often, and have fun. I feel confident in my ability to defend myself (whether or not what I'm learning is the undiluted real whatever).

[Judge Pen]

Short forms:

I have a very nice analysis of short forms at home. When I can, I'll post it here. Basically, They start from a low bo stance. They introduce basic blocks, kicks, punches, sweeps and throws.

The first short form is done in a low bo stance with either you right or left leg forward (we learn both sides) and your opposite hand extended in a fist. While your back hand punches your front hand blocks up and then clears to the side in a head block: the intent is to misdirect and stick to the incoming technique pulling it to the side while opening the door on your opponent for your hand technique while turning your front hip into the attack. All this is done at the same time. The first short form concludes by "blocking down" where both hands curl down with your fist palms facing you and the elbows and forearms covering the body. The point of the elbow can de driven into a foot, leg, arm etc for the block or the techniqe and be used for a type of arm break/arm bar etc. Very simple techniques with alternate applciations. The bo stance is used to build strength and balance while practicing the technique and the application can be done from any stance since you are dealing with basic principles. In fact one of the applications is to start the technique standing up and pull back into the bo using the step to provide leverage and pull your opponent into the technique while using their forward momentum. Throws can be introduced in this way.

This is the first short form taught in SD. We have 30 and the complexity and footwork builds gradually from there.

[themeecer]

The question to ask: is there any point in 'specializing' in any of the 'styles' taught at SD, since adimittdly, they are not taught by people who actually know and practice the style.

It just doesn't make any sense. Honestly, other than for folks living in a swordsman novel fantasy, I don't see anything in the SD literature to reccomend it for serious training. It would seem you would learn more bad habits that good habits. And if you are required to go outside the school to go 'deeper' into the subject - doesn't that seem like a warning right there? It's one thing to seek out other teachers of the same thing. It's another to seek out instructors to find what your missing, when your 'grandmaster' proclaims he has the true source of complete knowlege. (and we have seen from video clips that he moves EXACTLY like the other SD clips we have seen.0

Just food for thought. I'd be more interested in talking about the 'short forms.' Would anyone mind describing them how they are practised, etc.?
Some of us don't need someone to hold our hand and wipe our noses for us every step of the way. The secrets of the forms are hidden within the forms. Just because you can't do something, it doesn't mean that others can't. Take a person thrown on a deserted island who had one form to master. (And assuming that there are willing participants to practice on) Go back 20 years later and see how he fares. By your assumptions he wouldn't be able to master the form because he didn't have someone to hold his hand the entire time. That is just not true, in my opinion. Heck, think of the people who invented these systems ... they didn't have anyone to walk them through every little baby step, and yet look at what they created.

[MasterKiller]

Some of us don't need someone to hold our hand and wipe our noses for us every step of the way. The secrets of the forms are hidden within the forms. Just because you can't do something, it doesn't mean that others can't. Take a person thrown on a deserted island who had one form to master. (And assuming that there are willing participants to practice on) Go back 20 years later and see how he fares. By your assumptions he wouldn't be able to master the form because he didn't have someone to hold his hand the entire time. That is just not true, in my opinion. Heck, think of the people who invented these systems ... they didn't have anyone to walk them through every little baby step, and yet look at what they created.

If that person is shown the form incorrectly before they are stranded, what are the chances they'll figure out the incorrect parts and fix it themselves, especially if they have no other frame of reference with which to compare the form?

[themeecer]

If that person is shown the form incorrectly before they are stranded, what are the chances they'll figure out the incorrect parts and fix it themselves, especially if they have no other frame of reference with which to compare the form?
Who is to say they are taught incorrectly? And if they have someone to practice on, the incorrect parts would show themselves.

[Fu-Pow]

Take a person thrown on a deserted island who had one form to master. (And assuming that there are willing participants to practice on) Go back 20 years later and see how he fares. By your assumptions he wouldn't be able to master the form because he didn't have someone to hold his hand the entire time. That is just not true, in my opinion. Heck, think of the people who invented these systems ... they didn't have anyone to walk them through every little baby step, and yet look at what they created.

Your example is lacking. Kung Fu doesn't exist in a vacuum like that. Although we like to think that our art came from some Taoist sage living on a hill somewhere Kung Fu is actually a very collaborative art.

Like everything in life "Kung Fu" is composed of Buddha (I), Sangha (We) and Dharma (It(s)).

In martial arts terms....its one part the individual physical work/thought/spirit that you put in, one part the kung fu culture that you immerse yourself in and one part the actual physical path/content/training methods, etc of the style.

I believe you need all of those to reach your potential as a martial artist.

[MasterKiller]

Who is to say they are taught incorrectly? And if they have someone to practice on, the incorrect parts would show themselves.

A) Well, MonkeySlap, for one. :D

B) You implied the person was left to practice alone, did you not? So how do the kinks get worked out then?

[Starchaser107]

"In martial arts terms....its one part the individual physical work/thought/spirit that you put in, one part the kung fu culture that you immerse yourself in and one part the actual physical path/content/training methods, etc of the style.

I believe you need all of those to reach your potential as a martial artist."

nice way of looking at it.

[themeecer]

A) Well, MonkeySlap, for one. :D

B) You implied the person was left to practice alone, did you not? So how do the kinks get worked out then?
a) MonkeySlap has never seen me.

b) Sorry, I tried to indicate that he had someone to practice on.

[Starchaser107]

with no one there to guide either of them, and nothing to compare it to then it would begin to evolve into a different creature than it began as.

[Starchaser107]

and it would die with them , if they didn't get saved. unless it's a really big island and there are a few other men and women there on the hypothetical deserted island.

[themeecer]

I wish I was on my hypothetical island right now. At this moment I am having second thoughts about going back to college for a second degree. With the WWW at my fingertips, the sources I am needing for an economics paper is eluding me. Bah!

[MasterKiller]

I thought Kentucky was that island paradisewhere men can't marry other men, but they can marry their sisters.

[Judge Pen]

I thought Kentucky was that island paradisewhere men can't marry other men, but they can marry their sisters.

You have that confused with Alabama.

[sean_stonehart]

You have that confused with Alabama.

Don't forget the sheep ... you'll insult them if you forget the sheep...

[wdl]

You have that confused with Alabama.


Oh man, that hurts. You've cut me to the core. :D

-Will

[Fu-Pow]

"In martial arts terms....its one part the individual physical work/thought/spirit that you put in, one part the kung fu culture that you immerse yourself in and one part the actual physical path/content/training methods, etc of the style.

I believe you need all of those to reach your potential as a martial artist."

nice way of looking at it.

I'm trying to look at martial arts "integrally."

Been doing alot of reading by the philosopher Ken Wilber in the last few years.

[Judge Pen]

Oh man, that hurts. You've cut me to the core. :D

-Will

Take it out on me at our next sparring class.

[wdl]

Take it out on me at our next sparring class.

OK! :)

I'll avenge all fellow Alabamians. Not that it'll mean much or I'll get far doing it. :D

And don't stay out with your honey late before the next sparring class. You can't dodge out of this one. :p

-Will

[Judge Pen]

OK! :)

I'll avenge all fellow Alabamians. Not that it'll mean much or I'll get far doing it. :D

And don't stay out with your honey late before the next sparring class. You can't dodge out of this one. :p

-Will

It was a weekend working out in Atlanta that did me in! Valentines day had nothing to do with it.

[wdl]

It was a weekend working out in Atlanta that did me in! Valentines day had nothing to do with it.

Yeah right.... On Friday I hear, "I wouldn't miss a good fight for anything, etc". Didn't show Tuesday.... On Wednesday I hear, "I was pooped out". What am I supposed to think? I put two and two together and that equaled one heck of a Valentines for JP! LOL

-Will

[MonkeySlap Too]

Your statement demonstrates what you do not know. I don't think I'll need to see you to pass judgement on your skill. Your 'knowledge' demonstrates for me everything I need to know.

The desert isle hypothesis does not preclude that you won't learn how to fight - but it will preclude you from actually understanding the 'form'.

Here's the big secret:
The secrets to kung fu fighting skill is NOT in the forms. And if you don't have those keys, you will never unlock the knowledge/skill. Forms are just devices used to help students remember what is in the suitcase. There are benefits to forms training. But the real benefits only come out when you know what was put in the suitcase in the first place.

Look at what Fu Pow is saying and consider it. He's correct on a great many things.

You should think about the morality of the teachers that pass down such nonsense.

[themeecer]

Your statement demonstrates what you do not know. I don't think I'll need to see you to pass judgement on your skill. Your 'knowledge' demonstrates for me everything I need to know.

The desert isle hypothesis does not preclude that you won't learn how to fight - but it will preclude you from actually understanding the 'form'.

Ok, while I am thumping upside your head with my Hsing I, you are going to be laying on the ground saying ... "yeah but you don't actually understand the form." Freakin hilarious.


Here's the big secret:
The secrets to kung fu fighting skill is NOT in the forms. And if you don't have those keys, you will never unlock the knowledge/skill. Forms are just devices used to help students remember what is in the suitcase. There are benefits to forms training. But the real benefits only come out when you know what was put in the suitcase in the first place.

Your statement demonstrates your 'knowledge,' the secrets are in the forms. Just because you can't seem to find them doesn't mean they don't exist. Forms were created as a method for a teacher to pass his knowledge down to his students and on to future generations. The best way to do that is to allow the students to 'feel' what the teacher feels when he is fighting. So teacher puts together a set of his fighting techniques in a combined flowing form. Through thousands of repetitions the student learns to move in the way his teacher does and the mechanics, conditions the body, gets the form into 'muscle memory' that can be pulled out without thinking, works out hundreds of applications and incorporates it into their fighting style.


You should think about the morality of the teachers that pass down such nonsense.
I am one said teachers and don't question my morality. I make such statements on experience.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I rest my case.

I couldn't demonstrate what you don't understand any better than you do yourself.

Good luck with all that.

;)

[themeecer]

Fine .. rest your case.

You continue to make assumptions of people you have never met and practice your superior web-fu skills and I'll continue to base my opinions on experience.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I am one said teachers and don't question my morality. I make such statements on experience.

REPLY: Sure I will. Just because you *think* it is so, doesn't make it so.

The Benjamin D'israeli (I think) quote paraphrased here serves best:

"The words of the clever man are always misunderstood by the stupid man as he transforms them into something he can understand."

[Fu-Pow]

Forms were created as a method for a teacher to pass his knowledge down to his students and on to future generations. The best way to do that is to allow the students to 'feel' what the teacher feels when he is fighting.

What do you mean by "feel?"




So teacher puts together a set of his fighting techniques in a combined flowing form. Through thousands of repetitions the student learns to move in the way his teacher does and the mechanics, conditions the body, gets the form into 'muscle memory' that can be pulled out without thinking, works out hundreds of applications and incorporates it into their fighting style.

Ok.



I am one said teachers and don't question my morality. I make such statements on experience.

The "culture" of Shaolin-Do needs to evolve and transcend where it is now. You people have bought into the "myth" of Shaolin-Do. Even though there is a myriad of independent evidence that has been brought up against "the myth" the SD guys, at least on this forum continue to support it.

The problem with unchallenged "myths" is that they often support hierarchical power structures within an organization. Participants of your organization "don't care" if the "the myth" aspect of Shaolin-Do is true or not because it supports their own position within the organization. Starting from the top down....ie Sin The.

In order to transcend you guys need to evolve into an organization that challenges "the myth" and checks your knowledge with independent sources for "peer review." Your culture needs to step up into the world of rationality and objectivity.

Again, as before, its not just Shaolin-Do, its just that Shaolin-Do is an easy target for this kind of criticism...mostly because of the shameless self-promotion of its leaders.

[Thunaric]

Hello all, new to this forum.

I've been going to a Shaolin-do school for about two years. For alot of reasons, many already stated by others on this thread, I am going to look around at some other schools. To the point though, I feel there is this rush to learn forms without learning what to do with them. It has been my first experience with a martial arts school and in general has been a positive experience. Still, I feel there is something missing. We'll see what I find out.

Cheers

[wdl]

Hello all, new to this forum.



Welcome. :)

Where do you train?

-Will

[MonkeySlap Too]

Take a careful look at whatever you check out. MOST ma is pretty suspect... Obviously I would not recommend an SD school, but that does automatically mean the non-SD schools in your area are any better. Example - despite my obvious concerns about the accuracy of any of the SD claims, I think they're Karate-like body language is probably preferable to say, TKD body language.

so - buyer beware... the last thing you'd want to do is jump from questionable to downright bad.

Remember, most of these guys are repeating what they were taught with no critical thinking appplied. But we've also seen there are honest, self-reflective fellows out there who enjoy thier SD and take the claims of the system and the legion of forms with a grain of salt and feel what they get is better than what else is available to them...

[Judge Pen]

Take a careful look at whatever you check out. MOST ma is pretty suspect... Obviously I would not recommend an SD school, but that does automatically mean the non-SD schools in your area are any better. Example - despite my obvious concerns about the accuracy of any of the SD claims, I think they're Karate-like body language is probably preferable to say, TKD body language.

so - buyer beware... the last thing you'd want to do is jump from questionable to downright bad.

Remember, most of these guys are repeating what they were taught with no critical thinking appplied. But we've also seen there are honest, self-reflective fellows out there who enjoy thier SD and take the claims of the system and the legion of forms with a grain of salt and feel what they get is better than what else is available to them...


Hey, we've moved up in the world: We are just "questionable" instead of "downright bad" depending on what else is available! :p

Thunaric, it's a shame that the rush of forms is pushing you to leave. All arguments about lineage, purity, and myth aside, the push for new material before the old material is second nature bugs me because I see it often in schools. Good luck in your search and pm me if you have any questions you don't want to post here.

[Golden Tiger]

Remember, most of these guys are repeating what they were taught with no critical thinking appplied.

I would have to disagree with that MS2. There have been 1000's of people that have trained in SD. Of those, you have seen clips of 5 perhaps, suffered through keyboard sparring matches with 10 or so and trained under 1? 2? tops. So to say most is misleading. I have attended classes where for 2 hours, the entire subject discussed was limited to how to throw a hook kick. Whether you would agree that it was right or not is beside the point but that it took a heck of a lot of critical thinking to be able to do it is without question. Some of my personal students were doctors, lawyers, educators, dentists, etc. so in essence, you are saying that those people that are entrusted with the well being of others are mindless dolts.

Statements like this is about the only thing that gets to me in this big SD debate. It always seems to be implied that people that study SD are not capable of knowing what is a good MA and what is bad. That they blindly play follow the leader and will never be a true MAist because of it. I have been doing this for close to 30 years. Personally I don't consider myself a great MAist because it never was my primary goal. Most of the time its painful and with few exceptions you darn sure can't make a living off it. But while I would never be considered great, I have learned a lot. I can defend myself or my family if need be. I was at one time in better shape than I would have been if not for studying SD. I know how to generate power with very little motion. I can manipulate someone through lock and holds because of the mechanics I have learned in SD.

So please, don't assume that most who have studied SD have wasted their time until you have matched your skill set against theirs.


Sorry, late night and too much caffine.


PS. UK 71-UT 63........ :D

[Judge Pen]

PS. UK 71-UT 63........ :D

Wait until football season. :mad:

[MonkeySlap Too]

I have. Didn't think much of it.

I never implied the followers of SD were idiots, just they accepted things without critical thinking. Everyone does this about a plethora of subjects, every day in their lives, without even noticing it. Just because someone is a doctor, lawyer, or educator, does not mean they are very bright in every aspect of their lives.

However, if you are teaching a subject, I think you are morally bound to question it, certainly when there such an incredible mountain of facts that call it into question. Again, if ST called SD 'a hodge-podge of JMA/CMA and stuff I learned from books, I don't think anyone would doubt that. But being the 'true' Shaolin, well that's downright funny... and ethically wrong. Insofar as being an MAist - well I'd rather not do CMA than attend a forms factory - but SD is not alone in that particular problem, just the most egregious example.

[Judge Pen]

Just because someone is a doctor, lawyer, or educator, does not mean they are very bright in every aspect of their lives.

I resemble that remark. :D

[sean_stonehart]

Doh!!!!!!!!!

[BM2]

There have been several points stated that bear merit.
MST, it would be easier to read your posts if you didn't repeat the same views in each of them. I found myself passing over your posts due to repeation. Getting someone to view your opinion differently will not be accomplished through multiple posting of the same opinions. This is something that I am also guilty of doing.
By making constructive criticisms, several forum members of other styles have brought forth opinions shared by myself concerning SD.
While painful to admit, rank advancement seems to be more important then being able to do it correctly. When I read that some schools have black belts with 1.5 years or less in, it screams that something is very wrong.
While I am at it, it used to be that anyone under 16 had a white stripe down the middle of their brown or black belt to illustrate that they were a junior brown or black belt. While they may be able to demostrate all the required material, they were immature for that rank. I don't think that a junior black belt should be able to wear a black gi. To me it cheapns the rank.

[Judge Pen]

While I am at it, it used to be that anyone under 16 had a white stripe down the middle of their brown or black belt to illustrate that they were a junior brown or black belt. While they may be able to demostrate all the required material, they were imature for that rank. I don't think that a junior black belt should be able to wear a black gi. To me it cheapns the rank.

We still have a junior black designation at our school. They can wear black though.

[The Willow Sword]

I knew what SD was and I had not really been so gung ho about being a follower of the rhetoric and the claims and statements made by the organization. I knew that it wasn’t traditional CMA and I knew that certain aspects of the history were questionable. But what I did like and admire about Sd was the atmosphere there and the curriculum itself,,it actually was very conducive to the everyday average joe and jane who wanted to take a martial art,,learn self defense and not have to deal with a drill instructor environment or be in these reality fighting schools that most folks would not go to anyway. So the sell point at SD was done well and the atmosphere there was decent. What finally clinched it for me as to the history of SD and its claims was the research I finally did when I left the school.
This information focused on the “hairy grandmanster,,which they name (Su Kong) My research turned up another Picture of “Su kong” whose name is actually ”li Baoshu” who was part of the bejing circus in the 1930’s and the picture that everyone sees of Li baoshu in the suit and tie was taken and put in an old guiness book of world records featuring “circus freak shows”(in this book it is a full body shot)the picture that is shown to everyone now and that has been for years is just a head shot(edited of course). This book was found at a public library in louisville kentucky and shown to my previous teacher back in the early 80’s(it was an old book from the late 60’s and for some reason is no longer at the library in Louisville Kentucky). It has been debated here and the Sd’ers will dismiss it as just a similarity and not another picture of their “great grandmaster”. But in fact the persons in the two pictures I have are the same person( now there are some other pictures of people with the same disorder that Li baoshu had that look similar only with respect to the disorder,,but are obviously different people,,it is NOT the case with the pics that I have.) I wish I could find that book and then the evidence would be concrete and could not be downplayed or argued as something other than what it is(ironic eh?)

Anyway we have beat the dead horse in to something else now,,the gelatin mass that once was a dead horse is now pureed in to something else other than a dead horse,,yet we continue to beat it as if it were top news. Hahaha and the rest of us roll our eyes and think “ oh boy here we go again”.

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

I'm not going to disagree with you TWS, but here's my question: why can't you or someone else find that picture elsewhere? Surely other libraries have it other than Louisville Kentucky. If so, I'd like to see it. I've seen other pictures of li Baoshi and while they are similar (as similar as any other Chinese man with that disorder) they were not conclusive. You may be right but if the excat picture exists (but a full body shot) I'd love to see it.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Well, sometimes trying to explain it better works, or the point just hasn't been addressed.

JP - Ah, we just pick on Doctors, Lawyers, and such because everyone has experience with at leat one wacky one. No offense... but I dated a lawyer for a long time, and after her, I probably have the greatest reserve of lawyer jokes in history (starting with her). So, um, be forewarned...

Do you know why there are no marketing guy jokes? .... hey, you hired us...

[Judge Pen]

JP - Ah, we just pick on Doctors, Lawyers, and such because everyone has experience with at leat one wacky one. No offense... but I dated a lawyer for a long time, and after her, I probably have the greatest reserve of lawyer jokes in history (starting with her). So, um, be forewarned...


You'll be hard pressed to tell me a lawyer joke I haven't heard.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Finally, a challenge I'm equipped to accept!

[The Willow Sword]

Here are the pics for all to compare and debate till your hearts content. One is of "Su kong who is really li baoshu all clean cut and wearing a suit with hair brushed and such" it is this pic that was taken from the book i mentioned in my above post and used. ( it is tough to challenge it since pics like these are very rare and out of print books that dissapear from the louisville library helps to support their argument of specualtion).

and the other is the Wild lion looking li baoshu, as he was displayed in the bejing zoo, circa 1930's. this pic was taken from the net actually on a site that was dedicated to studying people in china with long hair and odd disorders.



Hey its up to the individual to decide about what is what in terms of legitamacy of historical events. Most of us say they are fabricated with regards to SD's history,,,and alot of other references to history in china will concur and show the timeline disputes and such.
So if you go on the premise based on what evidence HAS been given about the history of Sd and you conclude therefore that the history was fabricated,,it leaves one to wonder WHAT ELSE is fabricated at the school IE: forms and such.

Peace,,TWS

[sean_stonehart]

Here are the pics for all to compare and debate till your hearts content. One is of "Su kong who is really li baoshu all clean cut and wearing a suit with hair brushed and such" it is this pic that was taken from the book i mentioned in my above post and used. ( it is tough to challenge it since pics like these are very rare and out of print books that dissapear from the louisville library helps to support their argument of specualtion).

and the other is the Wild lion looking li baoshu, as he was displayed in the bejing zoo, circa 1930's. this pic was taken from the net actually on a site that was dedicated to studying people in china with long hair and odd disorders.



Hey its up to the individual to decide about what is what in terms of legitamacy of historical events. Most of us say they are fabricated with regards to SD's history,,,and alot of other references to history in china will concur and show the timeline disputes and such.
So if you go on the premise based on what evidence HAS been given about the history of Sd and you conclude therefore that the history was fabricated,,it leaves one to wonder WHAT ELSE is fabricated at the school IE: forms and such.

Peace,,TWS

Interesting ...

[SDJerry]

There have been several points stated that bear merit.
MST, it would be easier to read your posts if you didn't repeat the same views in each of them. I found myself passing over your posts due to repeation. Getting someone to view your opinion differently will not be accomplished through multiple posting of the same opinions. This is something that I am also guilty of doing.
By making constructive criticisms, several forum members of other styles have brought forth opinions shared by myself concerning SD.
While painful to admit, rank advancement seems to be more important then being able to do it correctly. When I read that some schools have black belts with 1.5 years or less in, it screams that something is very wrong.
While I am at it, it used to be that anyone under 16 had a white stripe down the middle of their brown or black belt to illustrate that they were a junior brown or black belt. While they may be able to demostrate all the required material, they were immature for that rank. I don't think that a junior black belt should be able to wear a black gi. To me it cheapns the rank.

I have been studying SD for 5 years... I am still not a blackbelt ;)

In our school there is no way you could possibly obtain black in a year and a half. Its a mandantory 3 months wait between belts up to your brown belt. Thats from white, to yellow, to blue, to green, and then to brown. So you tie up a year just getting to your brown belt. There are 3 degrees of brown and the wait changes to six months once you obtain your brown belt. So that would take you a year and a half just to get through your brown belt.

At my school there is never any pressure to test and if they think you are not ready then you will not test. They also go out of their way to explain application but encourage you to also find your own. They really just kinda give you ideas to get you thinking on you're own ways to use them.

[wdl]

How come if I google search for "li Baoshi" I only get 4 unique hits? None of them really related a hairy person? Is it spelled wrong?

-Will

[BM2]

SDJerry,
As you already are aware some schools are very different. I think it is somewhere on this thread that a SD student said that there were BB at his school with less than a year and a half in.
TWS,
While it is difficult to say for certain since the facial features are obscured, I don't think they look alike.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, we could debate the two pictures endlessly. While I sense some conspiracy theory afloat with the missing Guniess Book from Louisville (it must be true since that book is gone) Surely someone else from a place where SD doesn't have a toe hold could go to the Library and find the book. That's the best evidence to what you are saying.

BM2, aren't you in Lousiville? Admit it, you stole the book with the picture. Fess up.

[Golden Tiger]

While searching the local library I came across the formula for cold fusion. Once I realised what it was, I returned and it was gone.....the humanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MonkeySlap Too]

And my evil reptile overlords in the Carlisle group will never let you have it back!

:rolleyes:

[wdl]

TWS's dude looks more like the dude that Kansas used on a 1995 album cover for Freaks of Nature:

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-102250/reviews/kansas/kansas_freaks_of_nature.html

I had that album before I joined SD. I saw Su Kong's pic and did a double take. Like TWS's picture it's not very clear and it's hard to tell if it's the same person without a giving him/her/it a good shave anyway. But I think the pic Kansas used favors the guy TWS is talking about more than Su Kong.

My question is still not answered, if he was published, why can't I find specific information about him online?


-Will

[Judge Pen]

The website where TWS got that picture was from opendemocracy.com. That's the only website I can find that references Li Baoshu. I'm not saying that he did or did not exist (anymore than I can say Su Kong did or did not exist). I'm just saying that you can find more non-SD internet references to Su Kong than to Li Baoshu.

And, as we all know, if it's on the internet it must be true.

[wdl]

Ok, I did have it spelled wrong. Now it makes more sense. But still, if you search: "Li Baoshu" + "Hair" you only get 6 unique results two of which are at open democracy and are the only ones related to Li Baoshu. God only knows an attraction like that should have gotten more press attention. Personally I'd like to see a bunch of pictures of him. :D

Interesting Read: http://hcs.harvard.edu/~hapr/summer00_tech/bookreview.html

This link basically states that there are 60,000 such people in the world today(whether or not it's true, who knows):
http://funreports.com/2004/11/30/57331.html

-Will

[serene_dragon]

Willow

Keep on posting that solid concrete evidence. WOW...
With evidence like that all of us SD students should lower our heads with shame.
Maybe after I stop laughing

Sorry its been a long day

[Judge Pen]

The thing is, we are in the same position as TWS in our proof. I know what I believe and I know what I can prove, but the two are often miles apart. I can't say that I "know" anything beyond the recollections of my experiences. The rest is conjecture.

[MasterKiller]

Those aren't the same guy.

[Judge Pen]

Those aren't the same guy.

I'm curious. . . . Why don't you think the pictures are of the same guy?

[Brad]

While I sense some conspiracy theory afloat with the missing Guniess Book from Louisville (it must be true since that book is gone) Surely someone else from a place where SD doesn't have a toe hold could go to the Library and find the book. That's the best evidence to what you are saying.
I tried, but strangely, none of the libraries in our centeral Ohio library system stock any of the Guiness World Record books. This conspiracy may be much more widspread than you think ;)

[Judge Pen]

I tried, but strangely, none of the libraries in our centeral Ohio library system stock any of the Guiness World Record books. This conspiracy may be much more widspread than you think ;)

OMG, there are SD schools in Ohio. I suppose that when a new school moves into an area the first thing the instructor does is go to the Library and purge the Guiness World Record Books. Communists. :p

[Fu-Pow]

OMG, there are SD schools in Ohio. I suppose that when a new school moves into an area the first thing the instructor does is go to the Library and purge the Guiness World Record Books. Communists. :p

I can check my local libraries in Seattle, there aren't any SDers in this area.

Just need to know the year of the book that supposedly has the picture.

*Sin The to SD Black Ops: Dispatch operative to Seattle to destroy all Guiness Books*

[Judge Pen]

I can check my local libraries in Seattle, there aren't any SDers in this area.

Just need to know the year of the book that supposedly has the picture.

*Sin The to SD Black Ops: Dispatch operative to Seattle to destroy all Guiness Books*

Operatives are on their way. :D

Ask TWS. I think he said he saw the book was published in the 1960s and he showed it to his teacher in the 80s.

[wdl]

*Sin The to SD Black Ops: Dispatch operative to Seattle to destroy all Guiness Books*

Oh crap, I've got a plane to catch out of Knoxville, maybe the layover in Atlanta won't be too long so I can beat you there. :D

Maybe I won't get confused between Guinness books and Guinness on tap this time. :rolleyes:

-Will

[The Willow Sword]

Quoted by judge pen
"Ask TWS. I think he said he saw the book was published in the 1960s and he showed it to his teacher in the 80s."


I did not write or say that I SHOWED THIS BOOK to my previous teacher(hell if i had the d@mn book back then and found out then what i found out a couple of years ago then i would have quit SD long ago. no,this was a book shown to him that he told me about back in his training days. it was shown to him by a fellow student who chanced upon the book. It was a guiness book of records featuring circus freaks and the pic of "Su kong" was a full body shot with him in that suit and tie.


Peace,,TWS

[Jhapa]

if su kong was so great and traveled to other temples to teach fighting monks and so on, then why isn't in the shaolin's history. they should at least mention him once or twice.

[BM2]

Let's say he didn't get out much.
The Chinese at that time were very supertious, sorry this thing doesn't have spell check and its 1:00am. Even during WWII, the Chinese would run out in front of a P-40 taxing so the devil that was chasing them would be cut down by the prop.
If memory is correct, I think that I read that he had left the temple twice.
Which leaves me to this, why didn't he shave? Sure it would have sucked without out a Mach 4 razor.

[Judge Pen]

I did not write or say that I SHOWED THIS BOOK to my previous teacher(hell if i had the d@mn book back then and found out then what i found out a couple of years ago then i would have quit SD long ago. no,this was a book shown to him that he told me about back in his training days. it was shown to him by a fellow student who chanced upon the book. It was a guiness book of records featuring circus freaks and the pic of "Su kong" was a full body shot with him in that suit and tie.


My bad. This is what you wrote:

"This information focused on the “hairy grandmanster,,which they name (Su Kong) My research turned up another Picture of “Su kong” whose name is actually ”li Baoshu” who was part of the bejing circus in the 1930’s and the picture that everyone sees of Li baoshu in the suit and tie was taken and put in an old guiness book of world records featuring “circus freak shows”(in this book it is a full body shot)the picture that is shown to everyone now and that has been for years is just a head shot(edited of course). This book was found at a public library in louisville kentucky and shown to my previous teacher back in the early 80’s(it was an old book from the late 60’s and for some reason is no longer at the library in Louisville Kentucky)."

So if I understand what you are saying. You (TWS) have never actually seen the book or the picture in question? You heard this information from somebody who saw the book themselves? I took your post to say that you had found the book "from your research."

[MasterKiller]

At least the CSC still has their videos up. I think someone about 50 pages or so ago was asking about the Sin The' clips. Click the "Grandmaster" link for Sin The' doing a preying mantis form (I think). Only the Hi-Speed links are working.

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

I was looking for that other pic of Su Kong to sort of back up what TWS is saying. The one where he is shirtless. It's my understanding that picture is cropped to remove a bear biting Su Kong's arm, which would suggest a circus background.

As far as I know, Shaolin never used bears to train iron body. :p

[Judge Pen]

As far as I know, Shaolin never used bears to train iron body. :p

Nah, the bear was his sparring partner. They used Tigers for Iron Body, silly. :D

[MasterKiller]

Third picture down.

http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/history2.html

Has anyone ever seen a photograph of Ie Chang Ming? Why are there always photos of Su Kong and not of Ie?

[Judge Pen]

Third picture down.

http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/history2.html

Has anyone ever seen a photograph of Ie Chang Ming? Why are there always photos of Su Kong and not of Ie?

Apparently, Ie preferred portraits. One of his "collegues" was a painter. That's the only picture you ever see. I don't know why.

[wdl]

Apparently, Ie preferred portraits. One of his "collegues" was a painter. That's the only picture you ever see. I don't know why.

Maybe he was superstitious about his picture being taken. I'm not superstitious about it but I HATE it for whatever reason. Maybe he just felt the same way about it. I'm not photogenic, everytime there is a picture of me taken it comes out wrong. Maybe he figured his painting collegue could do better. Nobody really has any proof.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

Not yet anyway.

[Fred Sanford]

ah yes shaolin-do, the art where you get to worship scooby-doo and a painting. excellent.

[Fred Sanford]

Shaolin-do Rulz!!!!!!!!!!

[serene_dragon]

For some of you is your problem with Su Kong T'ai Djin that you do not beleive one man could learn all that SD claims?

As for Fred, just looking at some of your post it seems as if you have problems with people with disorders. Their are people who can help you with that kind of thing, just take that first step and admit to your problem.

[Judge Pen]

I think part of their problem is that there's no objective evidence of Su Kong's existance outside of SD and that no one could "master" all that SD claims. Learn, maybe but not master any of it.

[Thunaric]

http://www.ironpalm.com/VPhistory.html

[serene_dragon]

I think part of their problem is that there's no objective evidence of Su Kong's existance outside of SD and that no one could "master" all that SD claims. Learn, maybe but not master any of it.

To find Concrete Proof of existance for someone who did not leave the temples much and was abandoned by his parents as a baby would be difficult to find. I can see that. But it doesnt mean that he did not exist.

I do think that there are very few people that could do it but to say that no one could "master" all that SD claims to me seems a little closed minded. Which is ironic because SDers seem to be the ones who are being called the closed minded ones.

[Radhnoti]

I suppose that it depends upon your definition of "master". For some, that would be a lifelong pursuit of a single martial discipline. None of the historical (or current) SD grandmasters would be able to make such a claim. The theoretical ability to learn such a vast amount of material hinges upon a somewhat murky claim of "sixth sense training". At the same time, people in SD consistantly refer to GM Sin teaching out a form after "checking out his notes", which hurts the credibility of that particular claim. If you're a master of a specific style, you would not need to refer to documentation. I am CERTAINLY not saying GM Sin is not a master of his specific and favorite forms/styles...the man moves with amazing grace (though I've not seen him since his recent surgery), but I sincerely question whether having personal notes from a time when you learned something (perhaps even FROM a person who studied it exclusively) allows one to claim to be a "master" of that style.


I can understand the resentment. Some sders are saying, "My Grandmaster is also a Master of YOUR style...not to mention almost every other Chinese style. What's your instructor been DOING all this time? :confused: "

[David Jamieson]

When people invest a lot of time into something, and then discover they've been duped, that is an extremely hard pill to swallow.

gloating from the fringe does nothing to ease their anxiety, and if they are capable of kicking the crap out of performance wushu people, they are forever on teh edge of not knowing and stay there. Precariously hanging on in the hope that they could be right and wrong at the same time.

this describes the attitudes of most martial arts schools except for the cut and dried ring fighting schools which are not concerned in teh least with masters, lineages, styles etc and only on winning a place on the mat.

food for thought, not that mma is better, but In my opinion, traditional martial arts is in dire need of some fixing up, in many cases it is as attractive as an old painted *****. NOw for someone who ain't never got none, even that is appealing. :D

[serene_dragon]

I can see where the resentment comes from if some SDers are saying that GM Sin The' knows more about their style than their master does. Statements like that are just from peole who are asking for a fight. Every system/style has people like this in it. That is like a bunch of kids saying "My daddy can beat up your daddy". And these claims are probrably from students who have the same mentality as a 6-8 year old child, at least in this area.

[Golden Tiger]

At the same time, people in SD consistantly refer to GM Sin teaching out a form after "checking out his notes", which hurts the credibility of that particular claim. If you're a master of a specific style, you would not need to refer to documentation. ........

........but I sincerely question whether having personal notes from a time when you learned something (perhaps even FROM a person who studied it exclusively) allows one to claim to be a "master" of that style.



I would have to respectfully disagree with that. When Master Sin teaches out a new form, it is one that he probably hasn't done in a long time. And when he teaches it, he also includes the names of all the postures, the background and any other information that may be associated with that particular form. To think that even a "master" could retain all that information is pushing it. Even I will go back and look at my notes or video of lower rank material (brown belt stuff) when I teach it to make sure that I am still doing it the way I was shown even though I have done the forms a thousand times.

Another good example would be like when I was in college, the professors would have to look things up even though they had been an "expert" in that particular field for years and years. So I myself don't think that "having to refresh ones memory" indicates anything other than trying to provide the best possible information that one can.

That said, as I have stated before, I personally have always taken stories and claims with a grain of salt. If everything about SD is not true, that will not lessen the training and abilities that I have gained while studying it. I guess unless you have been there as long as I have and seen the incredible amount of information that has been passed along, you may not understand the depth of what Master Sin has passed along. So fact or fiction, for me the proof is in the pudding.......

[Radhnoti]

Mastery, to me, indicates that you have integrated something so completely and fully into your life that it's a part of YOU. Names, history, movements, applications...you've MASTERED the entirety. But, we're quibbling over words now I suppose. I'm just saying that "mastery" is a different sort of thing in different styles, and though GM Sin may be a "master" (perhaps even by another style's standards) of certain things he teaches, I feel he wouldn't qualify as such (again by the hypothetical other style's standards) when he needs to review notes. The "legend of GM Sin" way around this is the photographic memory training which he refers to in his book as "sixth sense training". If such existed, perhaps, someone could "master" so many styles, but I have to stand by my statement that needing to refer to notes steals credibility from this claim.

GT - "If everything about SD is not true, that will not lessen the training and abilities that I have gained while studying it."

Amen to that.

[The Willow Sword]

When i was At SD i was learning so many different things and trying to soak it all in in such a short amount of time that when i tested for another belt and passed i had to "remember the movements" of the previous forms,,but i also had to start learning the newer forms for the next ranking,,,and not having a decent grasp of what i was learning before. This is the Major flaw of SD in my opinion(aside from the fact that the history is fabricated)

You learn all these forms and how well do you really understand them? i mean the animal systems in Traditional shaolin had a myriad of forms and ways to execute the form and the mindset and the focus. Learning and "MASTERING" Tiger system for example or any of the other animals say like crane or even mantis,,takes a lifetime. you guys may think you have your forms down because you remember the moves and can do them well in front of your fellow peers,judges and such. but thats all you got,,,the content is far from being totally soaked in or mastered in my opinion.

TOO MUCH INFORMATION. You know when i first joined Sd i had wanted to learn the internal systems that they supposedly taught "taichi hsing i and pakua" but i had to learn all this other stuff that i really had no interest in learning,,but i did it anyway so i could get to what i really wanted to learn. i mean those 3 internals are immense in their structure,,no matter where you study them. but i could not just train in those i HAD to do the other stuff(and i really never was taught anything more than maybe a few aplications to the SD pakua or the SD tai chi OR the SD hsingi) and thats what helps to make you a MASTER of something in my opinion.

The fact is that you can learn a lot of stuff there at SD but being able to focus on one system and really learn it and be taught it by a qualified instructor who is dedicated to that system is just non existent there at SD,,AND I KNOW BECAUSE I TAUGHT AT SD. (people here do not seem to realize that).
my detractors at sd wanna say all this cr@p about me,,but the truth of the matter is that i taught as best as i could,,and i had to wing it most of the time there and i will even go so far as to say that i had to BS my way through some things in order to keep the flow of teaching there smooth. the reason i had to do this at times was because i did NOT have a total grasp of the forms i was teaching,and why? because all i was taught was the movement of the form and maybe a couple of applications.
My resolve is strong about SD, I had good experiences there and not so good experiences. i did my research, found out what i needed to find out and now im gone from there. in my opinion SD is hybrid system of MAINLY Karate with a chinese flair to it. It claims to be something that it is not and the history is made up with maybe a few truths to confuse everyone and leave people guessing and speculating here.

anyway im done,,,if the book can be found and this all put to rest then fine and great..if not,,then whatever.
PEACE,,,TWS

[oldmonkey]

Willow Sword,

I continue to be surprised by your experience in Texas. All that I can say is, my experience in Tennessee has been very different.

The very fact that you were teaching--and "making things up" so "things ran more smoothly"-- strikes me as a bizarre and outrageous circumstance. I'm glad you have the courage to admit your mistake. Clearly you should NOT have been teaching, and you may have done the art a gross disservice. I'm shocked to learn that someone who alleges to have trained with GM Sin ever expected you to. That is NOT representative of all of us, certainly not where I train.

Where I train, I am asked to LEAD a group, and even assist from time to time running a class or helping beginners with very basic skills...but never is there any misunderstanding about who TEACHES. Only the ranking master does the teaching.

I know that there are many different people practicing in different parts of the country, I can only speak from my own personal experience. I've been fortunate enough to train in other martial arts from different teachers...some of them relatively unknown, and others as famous as William C.C. Chen. I can only say that I'm very pleased with the instruction I have received at this school. I have a teacher who has practiced over thirty years, and can outperform people half his age. The ability to teach is a skill all in itself, and he has been an effective and generous teacher. He has NEVER insisted that we learn the whole system...quite the contrary! Even he admits to mastering only a fraction of it. He expects us to build a foundation...and then to build on that foundation in a focused area.

I can understand your frustration. I hope that what you practice now affords the kind of specialized focus you seek.

By the way, not everyone who practices 'Shaolin chuan fa' derived from GM Sin is necessarily a member of the organization known as SD. (I am not.)

[serene_dragon]

When i was At SD i was learning so many different things and trying to soak it all in in such a short amount of time that when i tested for another belt and passed i had to "remember the movements" of the previous forms,,but i also had to start learning the newer forms for the next ranking,,,and not having a decent grasp of what i was learning before. This is the Major flaw of SD in my opinion

This is when you say wait, I need to get this down better before I learn more material. If you are not comfortable with the speed you are being taught then you have to slow it down. Especially if your instructor does not see it.

[MonkeySlap Too]

But the proof is in the pudding isn't it? SD claims all this 'knowledge', but other than some heavily JMA influenced Southern Shaolin stuff - the rest is just not what you guys claim it to be! It isn't. It doesn't matter how many of you are brainwashed to beleive it... it does not change the reality.

At least Willow had the courage to test his convictions, and was man enough to realize where he was led astray.

[serene_dragon]

you guys may think you have your forms down because you remember the moves and can do them well in front of your fellow peers,judges and such. but thats all you got,,,the content is far from being totally soaked in or mastered in my opinion.

For some people that may be true. As for me before I test I will have torn my material apart and will have at least one application for every move. Most of the time I have many applications for each move. When I test I dont see myself as having mastered each kata. But I do understand what I am doing and I could use this techn. if I had to. As for mastering it, that will come in time.

[serene_dragon]

,,but the truth of the matter is that i taught as best as i could,,and i had to wing it most of the time there and i will even go so far as to say that i had to BS my way through some things in order to keep the flow of teaching there smooth. the reason i had to do this at times was because i did NOT have a total grasp of the forms i was teaching,and why? because all i was taught was the movement of the form and maybe a couple of applications.

You had no business teaching at all. It is this type of thing that gives SD or any other system a bad name. People come in to take a class and the instructor doesnt even know what he is doing which makes them go elsewhere with nothing but bad things to say about that system.

[serene_dragon]

SD claims all this 'knowledge', but other than some heavily JMA influenced Southern Shaolin stuff - the rest is just not what you guys claim it to be! It isn't. It doesn't matter how many of you are brainwashed to beleive it... it does not change the reality.

At least Willow had the courage to test his convictions, and was man enough to realize where he was led astray.

MS have you ever taken SD before? You are trying to tell us what we have and dont have, just curious where that comes from.

Maybe Willow was led astray, maybe he went to an instructor that did the same thing he did. Or maybe he got caught up in the group of people who are only looking for a belt not knowledge. Trying to keep up with them and not focusing on training, it happens to alot of people. I dont know.

[Radhnoti]

I don't think TWS's experience is the exception. My teacher has a third black rank, at least a few of his instructors have been of "master" rank. He has expressed real disappointment when he attempts to clarify fine points in his training. He too has said that he sometimes feels like he's winging parts of his teaching, especially in regards to historical questions. The total knowledge is not there, and he finds himself referring to whatever book he can find on the subject. I'm NOT saying the guys he's learned from are poor martial artists, it's possible that they just weren't interested in following up on the points he was. And HISTORY-wise no one seems to have ANY idea. Half the SD community thinks that our Tai Chi 24 was passed down from Shaolin...the short forms are often advertised as tan tui derived...who knows ANYTHING about the years in Indonesia? The years when the WHOLE blasted thing was put together, it's like that portion of the history is just skimmed over except as a reason for much of the "japanization" of SD...

The students who "slow down" are not rewarded or glorified in the SD political system. A black belt who decides to focus on one thing will soon find his more ambitious classmates of higher rank. Who will then be given the right to teach in a specific area? That's right, the higher rank. Certain system are considered "more advanced" and get taught out at higher SD ranks...is the Hua system REALLY more advanced than the tai chi or pa kua you get at first black? Of course not, but that's the implication. Everyone who advances wants to get to the next big cool thing, and that hunger to "get more forms" is NOT a minority attitude in SD. It's (in my opinion) encouraged. "EVERYONE come out and learn this new form from GM Sin at this years seminar! It's our duty to preserve this form and save GM Sin's knowledge for future generations!" My school's teacher was recently told that we are EXPECTED to show up for the next seminar AND tournament. (Apparently, the turnout from the last ones were sub-standard.) It's crazy, warped and...just wrong. How's he going to walk up to our kids, some from really poor SE Kentucky families and tell them, "Hey, you guys need to shell out better than $100 for this form...it's for future generations, you know?" :mad:

The more you learn about the high-school style politics and ego....craziness going on, it just makes you want to give up.

[The Willow Sword]

You had no business teaching at all. It is this type of thing that gives SD or any other system a bad name. People come in to take a class and the instructor doesnt even know what he is doing which makes them go elsewhere with nothing but bad things to say about that system


And who's fault is that? Mine or the one who put me in charge of several classes?

you know from the very beginning i had expressed a willingness to teach. And yes i was given that opportunity,,,,but as i continued on with what i was doing i REALIZED that all i was doing was teaching a form(s),,and thats it.
i did as best as i could to teach as much as i knew to the people i was helping to instruct,,and i by no means ever thought i was EVER running things.
HOWEVER,,when the Head Teacher and the one designated MASTER,,was hardly ever around to answer questions about form application,,then what am i supposed to do? Jump ship? NO,,,I was dedicated there and THAT is Something that i think the head teacher where i studied really failed to realize.
in my opinion he favored his favorites and one of em turned out to be an alleged pedophile.
errgh all this posting has got the feelings of disdain running through me again and i hate it when i get like this,,,you know i am supposed to be over all this BS and Moving on. oh well i am only human i guess.

PEACE,,TWS

[MonkeySlap Too]

"MS have you ever taken SD before? You are trying to tell us what we have and dont have, just curious where that comes from."

Reply: Thankfully, no. But I have had direct experience with SD people in my younger, less diplomatic days - lets just say I didn't see anything that resembled actual CMA in those encounters.

Hmm, about 25+ years in the arts - JMA, CMA, and IMA - with a free-fighting track record, and teaching certificates from instructors who are not only recognized (if not always liked) by others outside thier sphere, and with histories that are verifiable by other people who were there. Currently the CQC knife instructor for a firm that teaches EP folks going to Iraq.

You - trained by a MAist from Badung, who almost certainly practiced a heavily JMA version of South Shaolin (very common in Indonesia, where instructors did not teach all students how to use what was taught, and held back from those that were) - with an added melange of Chinese systems/styles, many of which are contradictory - and present a real conflict in regards to being good at any of it - but since SD has not demonstrated anything resembling actual understanding of these other arts - but brainwashes people into beleiving this is a 'university' style, and queitly whitewashes away that they have nothing but the choreagraphy... Although more and better books are coming out, so i'm sure more 'secrets' have been revealed lately :rolleyes:

Look, I'm not saying I know everything - actually I am very interested in the Bandung Silat/KunTao and seeing wht they have - but the melange of extra forms and silly history really poisons what could otherwise be an interesting bit of hopology.

If you really think you are learning Xing Yi or Tai Chi or Ba Gua, I suggest you compare your knowledge against a Li Tai Liang, Mike Sigman, or Novell Bell. I think you might find yourself seeing things like TWS - remember, before he had direct confirmation, he was an SD true beleiver, saying things like the Karate stuff was because it was 'combat kung fu.' Now here's a guy who is willing to step up and play - how would YOU feel if you were him and let down on so many levels. Well, maybe you'll get a chance to try it out. But until then, your school is misleading people. That is wrong behavior.

[Golden Tiger]

I don't think TWS's experience is the exception. My teacher has a third black rank, at least a few of his instructors have been of "master" rank. He has expressed real disappointment when he attempts to clarify fine points in his training. He too has said that he sometimes feels like he's winging parts of his teaching, especially in regards to historical questions.

Tell him to contact one of the 6 or 7 masters that are the the Lexington gym. They would be more than happy to help him.


And HISTORY-wise no one seems to have ANY idea. Half the SD community thinks that our Tai Chi 24 was passed down from Shaolin...the short forms are often advertised as tan tui derived...who knows ANYTHING about the years in Indonesia? The years when the WHOLE blasted thing was put together, it's like that portion of the history is just skimmed over except as a reason for much of the "japanization" of SD...

See answer 1


The students who "slow down" are not rewarded or glorified in the SD political system.

Not true. I know of many that are still active but have maintained their same rank for years that are truly respected and have even been promoted because of their insight and understanding of what they are teaching.



Who will then be given the right to teach in a specific area? That's right, the higher rank.

If that was the case, all the higher rank people would go out and takeover all the schools. Heck, I even know of a case where a 1st with many years of assistant teaching was given a school where a 3rd was.


Certain system are considered "more advanced" and get taught out at higher SD ranks...is the Hua system REALLY more advanced than the tai chi or pa kua you get at first black? Of course not, but that's the implication.

That's just the way Master Sin set the system up. It's not that they are more advanced, I think that its a case where the moves are more complex and the forms are longer and he felt that in ones training, that would be a good place to put them.




Everyone who advances wants to get to the next big cool thing, and that hunger to "get more forms" is NOT a minority attitude in SD.

No, unfortunately it is not a minority. I am one of them. But then again, when I was active, it had been years since I saw a new form so I welcomed the next cool thing.


"EVERYONE come out and learn this new form from GM Sin at this years seminar! It's our duty to preserve this form and save GM Sin's knowledge for future generations!" My school's teacher was recently told that we are EXPECTED to show up for the next seminar AND tournament. (Apparently, the turnout from the last ones were sub-standard.) It's crazy, warped and...just wrong. How's he going to walk up to our kids, some from really poor SE Kentucky families and tell them, "Hey, you guys need to shell out better than $100 for this form...it's for future generations, you know?" :mad:

Would you take the time to come out, rent a gym and teach something for 8ish hours if when you got there, only 5 people showed up? Or put together a tournament, again rent a gym, buy tons of throphies, have people spent hours and hours setting up demo's, training for competition and then have none of your schools show up?

And for the record, with the exception of the last tournament, the attendence at the seminars and tournaments (competitors and spectators) has exceded all expectations.

As for telling an instructor that he is expected to be there, I would have to agree. Thats all that is asked of the instructors, support Master Sin. When your instructor was given the ability to teach, he signed (or should have) a teaching agreement. That was one of the requirements. But with that, he also was allowed to go out, open as many schools that he could, charge students any amount that he wanted to, all based on what he had learned in SD and for Master Sin. Not a bad trade off. Heck, as for those poor E KY students, why doesn't he pull a few dollars from there class fees and sign them all up?


The more you learn about the high-school style politics and ego....craziness going on, it just makes you want to give up.

Unfortunately, that is a problem with anything you do. Personally, I choose to ignore it and it has never really affected me.

[Judge Pen]

Look, I'm not saying I know everything - actually I am very interested in the Bandung Silat/KunTao and seeing wht they have - but the melange of extra forms and silly history really poisons what could otherwise be an interesting bit of hopology.

If you really think you are learning Xing Yi or Tai Chi or Ba Gua, I suggest you compare your knowledge against a Li Tai Liang, Mike Sigman, or Novell Bell. I think you might find yourself seeing things like TWS - remember, before he had direct confirmation, he was an SD true beleiver, saying things like the Karate stuff was because it was 'combat kung fu.' Now here's a guy who is willing to step up and play - how would YOU feel if you were him and let down on so many levels. Well, maybe you'll get a chance to try it out. But until then, your school is misleading people. That is wrong behavior.

I'd love to compare notes and see some of these people in person. As I haven't focused solely on these styles, I'm know I can gain insight and perspective from them.

As for TWS, he lost a fight which could happen to anyone and felt like his schools didn't support him during the process. Kudos for him for putting it out there. He deserves props for not being afraid and not isolating himself. If he had a quesiton about the history etc before this, it was not reflected in his previous posts. Of course perspective and hindsight changes many opinons.

When I do Hsing-I, I do it the best that I know how. The best that my teacher teaches. Is it true Hsing-I? I don't know. It feels like it to me, but what do I have to compare to? I've watched intently other people's Hsing-I and it's not too differeant than what I was taught, but I haven't compared notes on all the nuiances. And there are some noticable differences. Does that make it fake, a different branch with stylistic differences or what? I don't know.

My Pa Kua needs lots of work. I know the form, but have not mastered the principles and all the applications. It's something I would like to work on more.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Here's a place to start - when you say 'my Xing-Yi' are you referring to a form? Or all the nei gong, wei gong, two-man work, equipment work, and underlying principles that make it work? Do your teachers have any idea of what i'm talking about?

There IS a lot of 'xing-yi'out there. some great, some not so good. But none of it looks like Karate movement.

[MonkeySlap Too]

JP- you come across as non-judgemental either way. Your attitude will help you find the useful in what you do. Very hard to maintain this when under such intense group pressure. You must be a lawyer or something...

[Golden Tiger]

Here's a place to start - when you say 'my Xing-Yi' are you referring to a form? Or all the nei gong, wei gong, two-man work, equipment work, and underlying principles that make it work? Do your teachers have any idea of what i'm talking about?




I do........ :)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Forgive me for being sceptical, but there is an overwhelming amount of evidence in regards to SD, that this would be unlikely.

But if we ever get to meet, feell free too prove me wrong - before we start drinking beer :D

[Radhnoti]

GT, I'd love it if you'd PM me the name of someone I could contact with honest straight-forward questions. ANYTIME I've gone up with history questions or my instructor approached a higher up with a history question you'd think we were making disrespectful statements or questioning authority. I know an instructor ranked higher than MY instructor who got his nerve up and asked GM Sin about the 900+ forms thing, when I asked him what happened he answered simply, "I got in trouble for mentioning it." If we post questions here would you pass them along and get an answer for us?
I know you've seen the websites with Tai Chi 24 listed as coming from a specific temple...and looking just now at the Texas school's website shows me that they still list our short forms as "Tan family leg techniques"...tan tui. My research indicates that our short forms are derivative of (not looking at notes here, so I could be slightly off) 108 steps of the lohan or something. It's ended up being similar to tan tui, but it's not...am I wrong here or is the official website of a guy who's been an SD master for as long as I've been a student? I don't think John Q Public would know what tan family leg techniques are either...so why not list them as short lohan forms or some such?
GT - "I know of many that are still active but have maintained their same rank for years that are truly respected and have even been promoted because of their insight and understanding of what they are teaching."
My instructor was a first black when he started, his then instructor told him he'd better start pursuing rank if he didn't want some ex-student coming along and asking for the right to teach in his town. I'm not saying this without doubt would have happened, just that this was the only reason my instructor ever pursued further rank...and his instructor at the time thought it was a definite possibility.
GT - "As for telling an instructor that he is expected to be there, I would have to agree."
He was told to bring himself AND his students. As a side note, he's not even close to raking in big bucks. Last summer we trained without any electicity through a part of the summer, and the phone is disconnected so often we started using it as a joke.
Teacher - "Where were you last class?"
Us - "I tried to call, but couldn't get through for some reason..." :rolleyes:
He's since had to give up the rental space and teaches from a student's garage. He's always had a lot of students, but half of them are not paying or not paying the full fee since their families just can't swing it. He ends up giving equipment away to help kids out, let them practice at home, etc. So, it's really not possible for him to "take the fees out of their tuition" when ends just aren't meeting for the school.
The same kind of pressures have been applied for him to get students to join the SDA. "Are you even TRYING to get them to join? You KNOW it's to help out GM Sin." He's a member, he mentions it from time to time, but doesn't try to "hard sell" it...and that fact IS held against him.
We've NEVER had any issues with GM Sin. Nicest guy you'd ever meet. He told us we should all wear shoes, so our knees wouldn't start aching. (Notice that he's always wearing them.) And he implied that he didn't care if we dropped the gi to just T-shirts since we were training in the heat of summer with no air conditioning. He didn't even care if the kids TESTED that way, which seemed great to us...not having to ask the students to shell out for a uniform. I don't think I have to tell you how those innovations went over with his more immediate superiors.

I have no doubt that my instructor would not want me throwing all this out on a public forum, but I'm too stubborn to go back now and erase stuff that I feel to be true. :(

[Ralphie]

System of Command! It amazes me that people in this country still treat things such as martial arts like someone from a superstitious 3rd world society would. These discussions of SD remind me of the Achebe book/Yates poem "Things Fall Apart". There are cracks in the wall, SD "masters". I laugh and cringe everytime I hear the old "don't question the master" crap that SD spews. IMO these type of MA paradigms are crumbling quickly. It's time to enter the 21st century, even Kentucky.

[The Willow Sword]

I agree with Ralphie here and his above post. hehe and being A kentuckian livin in texas i will still agree that Kentucky needs to evolve out of its current mentality.

as for the "dont question the masters" comment. Most people are afraid to even go up and talk to a "master" let alone actually ask questions about forms and lineage and such. I will say this right now that it is NOT being disrespectful to ask questions about what you are initially PAYING to learn and be a part of. I know it may sound a tad shallow to bring up the money situation with regards to Martial arts,,But you ARE paying for services rendered arent you? or contributing a kind of tribute so that there can be a viable exchange from one hand to another.

since we can use the old addage that "our tax dollars go to this and that" i would maintain that my hard earned money goes to support a school and organization and if i have some questions regarding what i am paying for then i expect to get honest and above all CIVIL answers to my questions.

but i guess this has reduced me to less than slime now bringing up "money" :eek:

I was afraid to ask Sin The' about the history and lineage and about the picture because i was fearful that either he would get p!ssed off and crack my head open,,OR if Bill Leonard was in the vicinity HE would do it for him(and i know about Bill Leonards temper in the past, i have heard some interesting stories).

Peace,,,TWS

[Golden Tiger]

Wow, Rad...that was kind of hard to read but will try.


I know an instructor ranked higher than MY instructor who got his nerve up and asked GM Sin about the 900+ forms thing, when I asked him what happened he answered simply, "I got in trouble for mentioning it." If we post questions here would you pass them along and get an answer for us?

Sure.

Plus, what is all this "getting up your nerve" stuff and TWS's "afraid" bs? Tell me one time that you have ever seen Master Sin get upset? Tell me one time that you have even seen Master Bill get upset(which is more likely, true)? I have had conversations with Master Sin where we talked about anything but MA, fussed and discussed on issues and never got my head cracked open.


Most people are afraid to even go up and talk to a "master" let alone actually ask questions about forms and lineage and such.

Again, this seems to be a personal problem. Most in that position would be more than happy to talk to anyone on just about anything.


The Tai Chi 24 and Tan tui thing......not sure where that came from. I was in the first class that was taught 24 and as I have said before, Master Sin told us exactly where and when it came to be which I have already tallked about before. Tan Tui.......I always heard that it was the 108 forms condensed to 30 because of repitition of moves.



We've NEVER had any issues with GM Sin.

So who is it you are having issues with? And if your instructor is having issues at all, have him drop me an email.


The same kind of pressures have been applied for him to get students to join the SDA. "Are you even TRYING to get them to join? You KNOW it's to help out GM Sin." He's a member, he mentions it from time to time, but doesn't try to "hard sell" it...and that fact IS held against him.

NO ONE has ever been forced to join the SDA. If you check out the SD website, you will see that more schools than not aren't members. Yes, they would like to get everyone to join but if you didn't, no big deal. If you attend seminars and tournaments and such, by all means join to save cash but if not. don't. As for it being held against him, I would like to know by who? I was a teacher for a lot of years pre and post SDA and eventhough I joined, a lot of my students (poor central Ky farm kids) didn't. Not once was it ever mentioned other than a letter from Master Sin or the SDA telling how it was going. So again, if in a PM if you have to, tell me who!



Welcome back Ralphie.......long time no see. you were greatly missed.

[Ralphie]

Hello GT, I've been here, but I've been really nice. A while back, I told another guy from Tn. that I would be, so...Anyway, hope you're doing well, GT.

[Golden Tiger]

Thanks Ralphie, life has been pretty good lately.

Boy, you must really owe that guy in Tn. to be able to keep that keyboard quiet. What, does he have pictures of you in a compromised situation or something involving farm animals or some mobsters wife? j/k

[The Willow Sword]

The times i have talked to Sin The' yes he has been very polite and cordial and such. but what i am referring to is actually confronting him(in a civil manner) about the lineage and the picture of sukong (li baoshu). If one were to ask Him something like
" Gm Sin? I have heard alot of rumors and talk about our lineage and history and of the actual picture of Gm Su kong. Where was that picture taken and who took it? the rumors are that this is a picture of a person who was in the circus and some say that they have seen this picture in an old guiness book of records featuring circus freaks."

Now i just wonder what the response would be. Maybe some of you guys who are daring enough could actually ask that question of him and see what it is that he says.

i would be very interested to know what he does say and how he reacts to the question.

Peace,,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

The times i have talked to Sin The' yes he has been very polite and cordial and such. but what i am referring to is actually confronting him(in a civil manner) about the lineage and the picture of sukong (li baoshu). If one were to ask Him something like
" Gm Sin? I have heard alot of rumors and talk about our lineage and history and of the actual picture of Gm Su kong. Where was that picture taken and who took it? the rumors are that this is a picture of a person who was in the circus and some say that they have seen this picture in an old guiness book of records featuring circus freaks."

Now i just wonder what the response would be. Maybe some of you guys who are daring enough could actually ask that question of him and see what it is that he says.

i would be very interested to know what he does say and how he reacts to the question.

Peace,,,TWS

I could tell you what he would probably say. He probably doesn't know as the picture and story of Su Kong was passed down by GM Ie. 3 options:
1. It's a true story;
2. It's false and Ie maded it up (in which case GM Sin honestly wouldn't know the difference); or
3. GM Sin The made it up.

It either case, he would answer the same way. He probably doesn't really know.

[Golden Tiger]

Maybe some of you guys who are daring enough could actually ask that question of him and see what it is that he says.

He's coming in this week I think, I'll see what I can do for you TWS.

[MonkeySlap Too]

My experience with Indo teachers is such that you may never get a good answer... that is not a slam, just an observation of dealing with the culture!

The thing to do would be to find those other students of Ie Chang, and talk with them. Again, they may or may not corraborate the story, may not 'have' the story if they were outside 'the door' of Ie Changs school, but the CAN corrobrate what was taught... wha the The' brothers were like, how they interralated with other arts, etc.

THAT would be a constructive and interesting way to learn about the recent history of your style.

But getting a straight answer from an Indo? Especially with Chinese heritage where folklore and legend have a way of becoming popular fact? Good luck!

(Again, I'm sure he's a nice guy, but I'm sure this holds true here too...)

[Judge Pen]

My experience with Indo teachers is such that you may never get a good answer... that is not a slam, just an observation of dealing with the culture!

The thing to do would be to find those other students of Ie Chang, and talk with them. Again, they may or may not corraborate the story, may not 'have' the story if they were outside 'the door' of Ie Changs school, but the CAN corrobrate what was taught... wha the The' brothers were like, how they interralated with other arts, etc.

THAT would be a constructive and interesting way to learn about the recent history of your style.

But getting a straight answer from an Indo? Especially with Chinese heritage where folklore and legend have a way of becoming popular fact? Good luck!

(Again, I'm sure he's a nice guy, but I'm sure this holds true here too...)

MS2: clean out you PM box, man!

Devil's advocate here: If that's the culture, what's the real slam against SD. If it's not what GM Sin The says it is (I think you use the term Indo/JMA/southern shoalin CMA mix) but we can't ever be expected to hear the rest of the story, what's wrong?

[Thunaric]

The more I read in books and on websites it seems something strange is afoot, but it is martial arts. I bet the whole story really has to do with the covering up of a past of the art coming through the triads. The character of Su Kong may have been a symbol for a triad group or Su Kong may really have been Li Baoshu with the latter being his cover as triads often used the circus as cover. This also could explain the huge amounts of forms that may have been written down by different masters within the triads. I have also heard that Su Kong worked as a type of security guard running laps around caravans. So, if it did come through the triads a false cover would be understandable and only partly false since it does seem that alot of martial monks did end up in the triads. Also, this would explain the "japanization" of terms as a cover too. Perhaps Ie just wanted to leave that past behind and really concentrate on the martial end.

Overall, from what I can tell Shaolin-do is a great system through the stages I have been through for the average person -- which it seems to be geared towards. I mean average in that they want to learn a type of martial arts that is mentally stimulating, physically beneficial, and potentially useful in emergency situations. It also does follow a predictable progression that is foreseeable. Lets face it most people that can benefit from martial arts are not history freaks or martial arts junkies bothering about origins too much. Also, it does offer martial arts without too much emphasis on the actual religious/philosophical beliefs of many systems. Going to Shaolin-do will not seriously challenge a person's xtianity or islam for instance or make them shady in the eyes of the U.S. government.

What it doesn't seem to offer is any heavy immersion in any philsophies especially religious, much direct combat fighting training, heavy application training (at early stages anyway), or much personal attention from a master during the initial stages.

I guess its take it or leave it for what it is. In the end its up to oneself to make what they are going to out of what they do. At the point I am at though, I don't feel I am getting the training my psyche seems to need. I don't think this will really change either. This could be particular to the school I attend. I think it may just be too large for the most knowledgeable instructors to give much attention to each student. Were forms, athleticism and comraderie what I was looking for it would be great. But, its not. Perhaps I'm looking for something more ascetic.

So, I will look around and compare.

[Thunaric]

The more I read in books and on websites it seems something strange is afoot, but it is martial arts. I bet the whole story really has to do with the covering up of a past of the art coming through the triads. The character of Su Kong may have been a symbol for a triad group or Su Kong may really have been Li Baoshu with the latter being his cover as triads often used the circus as cover. This also could explain the huge amounts of forms that may have been written down by different masters within the triads. I have also heard that Su Kong worked as a type of security guard running laps around caravans. So, if it did come through the triads a false cover would be understandable and only partly false since it does seem that alot of martial monks did end up in the triads. Also, this would explain the "japanization" of terms as a cover too. Perhaps Ie just wanted to leave that past behind and really concentrate on the martial end.

Overall, from what I can tell Shaolin-do is a great system through the stages I have been through for the average person -- which it seems to be geared towards. I mean average in that they want to learn a type of martial arts that is mentally stimulating, physically beneficial, and potentially useful in emergency situations. It also does follow a predictable progression that is foreseeable. Lets face it most people that can benefit from martial arts are not history freaks or martial arts junkies bothering about origins too much. Also, it does offer martial arts without too much emphasis on the actual religious/philosophical beliefs of many systems. Going to Shaolin-do will not seriously challenge a person's xtianity or islam for instance or make them shady in the eyes of the U.S. government.

What it doesn't seem to offer is any heavy immersion in any philsophies especially religious, much direct combat fighting training, heavy application training (at early stages anyway), or much personal attention from a master during the initial stages.

I guess its take it or leave it for what it is. In the end its up to oneself to make what they are going to out of what they do. At the point I am at though, I don't feel I am getting the training my psyche seems to need. I don't think this will really change either. This could be particular to the school I attend. I think it may just be too large for the most knowledgeable instructors to give much attention to each student. Were forms, athleticism and comraderie what I was looking for it would be great. But, its not. Perhaps I'm looking for something more ascetic.

So, I will look around and compare

[MonkeySlap Too]

The real problem:

Outright lieing to the public, beyond the normal stretchy stuff.

Teaching things they do not actually *know* and claiming it is the 'original' and the reason it looks like Karate isn't *because* it is mostly karate, but because it is the 'secret old way.'

The blind adhereance to things that are almost certainly false and passing them on to the next generation as truth.

Just because Sin The' may not know/most likely a pathological liar (swimming with pecs anyone?) doesn't change the responsibility of those that follow him.

Stop claiming things you don't really have, and there isn't a problem.


PM Box Open for Business.

[Brad]

What's his brother teach?

[Golden Tiger]

It was tempting....but why bother..... :rolleyes:

[serene_dragon]

If one were to ask Him something like
" Gm Sin? I have heard alot of rumors and talk about our lineage and history and of the actual picture of Gm Su kong. Where was that picture taken and who took it? the rumors are that this is a picture of a person who was in the circus and some say that they have seen this picture in an old guiness book of records featuring circus freaks."

If I get the opportunity to talk to GM Sin The' I would not waste my time asking him about a pic that I have never seen. As far as the one that was posted, that was a joke obviously. Wait, maybe I should ask him if he is behind the big conspiracy to get all the guiness books (for whatever year that was) out of the libraries across the country. :D

Im with GT, who would be afraid to ask GM Sin The' a question? Maybe some people may respect him and not talk much just because they do not want to make a coment that might sound foolish. But as far as being afraid he will crack your head open for a legitamate question, then you have just never been around the guy.

[Jhapa]

What's his brother teach?

same art, just different name http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/intro.html
even though he is called grandmaster, he was only up to 7th degree(?) blackbelt. i remember this from someplace on this forum.



If I get the opportunity to talk to GM Sin The' I would not waste my time asking him about a pic that I have never seen.


http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/index.shtml

[lxtruong]

Overall, from what I can tell Shaolin-do is a great system through the stages I have been through for the average person -- which it seems to be geared towards. I mean average in that they want to learn a type of martial arts that is mentally stimulating, physically beneficial, and potentially useful in emergency situations. It also does follow a predictable progression that is foreseeable. Lets face it most people that can benefit from martial arts are not history freaks or martial arts junkies bothering about origins too much. Also, it does offer martial arts without too much emphasis on the actual religious/philosophical beliefs of many systems. Going to Shaolin-do will not seriously challenge a person's xtianity or islam for instance or make them shady in the eyes of the U.S. government.

What it doesn't seem to offer is any heavy immersion in any philsophies especially religious, much direct combat fighting training, heavy application training (at early stages anyway), or much personal attention from a master during the initial stages.

I guess its take it or leave it for what it is. In the end its up to oneself to make what they are going to out of what they do. At the point I am at though, I don't feel I am getting the training my psyche seems to need. I don't think this will really change either. This could be particular to the school I attend. I think it may just be too large for the most knowledgeable instructors to give much attention to each student. Were forms, athleticism and comraderie what I was looking for it would be great. But, its not. Perhaps I'm looking for something more ascetic.

So, I will look around and compare

It's unfortunate that you're going to be looking around, best of luck in your search. I do find, however that several of the things that you bring up are exactly what draws some of our students. I would say that most of the students in my school are NOT looking for heavy immersion into philosophy or direct combat training. My way of thinking is that if I wanted philosophy or religon, I'll go talk to a priest or monk. Most students do not have the time or the inclincation, or quite frankly are in the right shape to do "direct combat training". I have classmates that don't join up until much later in life, they aren't looking to become the baddest guy on the street.

As for the personal attention thing, that's an unfortunate consequence of being in a large school. The head honcho's time is only so limited, so there really isn't anything that you can realistically do about that. I'm quite frankly amazed that my own teacher can even remember the names of many of the students at our school. There are 1st blacks in my class I don't even know the names of.

[Radhnoti]

Ok...about the Guiness Book picture. I'm not positive if it's the SAME picture that TWS is talking about, but Kung Lek showed up here with a pic from a Guiness book of JoJo the dog faced boy. It was obviously NOT the same person, as JoJo was caucasian (of Russian extraction I believe) under all that hair. I have the picture saved to a CD around here somewhere if anyone is interested, or you could get KL to let you know where he found it...my google search dug up nada. In any case, the JoJo picture was said to be from a Guiness book.

We had this guy who was totally outgoing and said whatever popped into his head to anyone. GM Sin was at the school and he blurts out, "Hey! GM Sin, how about showing us some of that Golden Snake stuff?!?"
GM Sin looked shocked for a second then just kind of chuckled and waved his hands around saying, "No...no, very tired." Not long after that the guy busts out with, "So GM Sin, when would you use your "Cyclone leg" style?" Without missing a beat GM Sin says, "To kill people asking silly questions!" He then laughed for a full minute...and when he laughs at stuff like that, you do too. We didn't know if he was masking real irritation or just cutting up. :D
When he comes around it just seems like he's mentally begging you not to "talk shop". I'm sure he hears it all the time...so we've always tried to talk about the things he WANTED to talk about. Films (he quite the film buff), his friends in TN/CO/KY, future plans. One time while chit-chatting my instructor asked what GM Sin thought this years seminar was going to be. He really didn't even want to know, just making conversation. This silence played out for 10 seconds or so, finally GM Sin sighed and in laboured tones went over the possibilities and what different students were petitioning him to teach out. My teacher, as soon as he could while being polite, changed the subject back to movies...and the sun came out and birds sang and all was right with the world again.

GT, first off sorry if my thoughts (and, subsequently, my writing) aren't easy to follow. My very first belt test I was at the Lexington gym. It was yellow belt and most the other students were little guys. Lots of mothers there, proudly watching their kids test for their first belt. Test starts and one mom is obviously having a little trouble keeping a baby quiet, but she's dying to watch her kid test so she stays. Master Leonard sat there and stared at her for about 5 minutes, finally he gets up, walks over to her, speaks in clipped tones and points at the door. She looks shocked, lowers her head and walks out.
I've probably heard a hundred "Master Leonard loses his temper" stories. I used to kind of think he and GM Sin had a "good cop, bad cop" kind of routine, but now I've heard enough stories to think...well, that's probably really a big part of his persona.

GT - "Tan Tui.......I always heard that it was the 108 forms condensed to 30 because of repitition of moves."
As have I, but I've never heard it said that it was derived from the style Tan Tui...it was, again sans-notes here 108 steps of the Lohan. This is just the history kind of stuff I'm talking about, BTW. The short forms are the basics in our system and it's the rare instructor that can tell you everything about them. I've had some study time with one Master who was there from the first and he's mentioned the way the short forms have changed...seemingly (to me) becoming more linear and simple. I'm assuming that this is to make it easier to teach out as "basics"? Is the 108 Lohan thing somehow related to Tan Tui? Heck, you've got 6 or 7 Masters wandering around up there begging for someone to ask them a question, let me know! :)

GT - "And if your instructor is having issues at all, have him drop me an email. "
GT, I think I know who you are, but REALLY I don't know you. How exactly would something like this go down. Me - "Hey sifu, you know how you were venting about all the craziness and politics, which was probably not meant for "public" consumption? Well, I anonymously posted things referring to it on a public forum and a high ranking SD guy who studies directly under Snr. Mstr. Leonard wants you to e-mail him. Have a nice day." :eek: No kidding, I will ask him if he wants to e-mail you and start a discussion. If your online persona here is any indication of your "real life" self, you seem like a good guy who cares about SD and GM Sin. Still, it's not my call to make...thanks for making the offer though.

My teachers instructor makes SDA sales pitches and chastizes people that they need to join. More than once I've heard students at THAT school state that if you wanted more "personal time" with the instructor you'd better join up, because he's just not friendly to you until you do. If that's not the norm, great. I certainly hope it is not, but I can only speak to the experience at my school and what I've heard happens at the other.
Thunaric, I like your triad explanation...it plays well with my own pet theories. Did you happen to catch my posts on that topic? It was quite a while back that I posted that though...

[The Willow Sword]

If I get the opportunity to talk to GM Sin The' I would not waste my time asking him about a pic that I have never seen. As far as the one that was posted, that was a joke obviously


No the two pics i posted of the same individual are NOT a joke.



But as far as being afraid he will crack your head open for a legitamate question, then you have just never been around the guy

I have definately been around Sin The', i have taken seminars with him in the past and i have sat across from him at the chinese resteraunt in Lexington that he likes to go eat after a seminar or belt testing,,and Yes he is very polite and cordial and when i have talked to him it has been about stuff like movies and diet and everything not having to do with martial arts,,and in that time i never had any real questions to ask him about history and lineage,,,but after i left SD(for personal reasons) and decided to do more research on the history AND that picture i came up with some GLARING contradictions and they have been debated here for years Serene dragon(you obviously have not been on the forums for very long or you would realize that.)

I honestly have no idea what would transpire if i or anyone were to really ask him about these matters. You deem them silly and waste of your and SIn the's precious time,,but in fact the questions ARE NOT SILLY and are definately Legitamate because they go to the cruxt of what Sin The' has been claiming and teaching out to his senior masters since the ealry 70's.

Most People with a few exceptions in the SD world FAIL to REALIZE that History and Lineage IS VERY IMPORTANT when you are at a martial arts school,,it is because for the asians who created these systems it is a part of THEIR CULTURE and WAY OF LIFE and PHILOSOPHY. We Westerners take the surface value of these what we call "Fighting systems" and b@stardize them in to our own little private reality. you have people in this country who have been taught in the TRADITIONAL Manner and one of those traditions is to LEARN ABOUT AND REMEMBER where your art came from. You have specific lineages and family trees of masters dating back as far as one can possibly go.
With the "shaolin" system there are so many myths and stories and things have been embelleshed over the years with Televison and movies and such that what you have is a partially Painted picture that has gaps that ANYONE could CAPITOLIZE on and turn in to thier own. But not as to say that one cannot be creative and spawn thier own art based on what they have been taught and are learning BUT WHEN YOU FABRICATE A HISTORY AND CLAIM IT AS THE "true shaolin" and you use questionable characters that cannot be corroborated by ANYONE ELSE other than the people who created them,,,well i think that is WRONG( i dont care how nice and polite you are) and as you have noticed serene dragon there are a ALOT of people who feel the same way. Hell Man even people in your own organization question the history and such.

Peace,,TWS

[Fu-Pow]

Ok...about the Guiness Book picture. I'm not positive if it's the SAME picture that TWS is talking about, but Kung Lek showed up here with a pic from a Guiness book of JoJo the dog faced boy. It was obviously NOT the same person, as JoJo was caucasian (of Russian extraction I believe) under all that hair. I have the picture saved to a CD around here somewhere if anyone is interested, or you could get KL to let you know where he found it...my google search dug up nada. In any case, the JoJo picture was said to be from a Guiness book.

"Su Kong" is definitely not JoJo. As you can see JoJo was caucasian.

http://www.alchemyofbones.com/images/j/jojo02041904.JPG

http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/Defymcbeth/images/c6.jpg


"Su Kong" is definitely the person in both of these pictures:

http://www.centralshaolin.com/shaolin_images/SuKong2_close.jpg

http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/SKong.jpg

You can see by the eyes that this person is of asian descent. This person also has an unusually long nose for an asian person.

[Golden Tiger]

Lord have mercy thats almost too much to respond to.

Let's see, here goes:


Post #1

Shaolin-Do is fake.

Post #2

No it isn't.

Post #257

Sin The' and SD is Fake


Post #258

Not to those who study it and like it


Post # 300

SD is fake

Post #301

Don't really care. We like it


Years later.....

Post # 2755


SD is fake

Post # 2756

Nope, it isn't.


I give up. This is silly beyond belief. If any one has any specific SD questions that I might have some insight into, feel free to ask. If not, I am done with this. You all know my side, I know yours. If you like it, come see us and join up. If you don't like it, either get over it or hush.

Goodness, I honestly can't believe that I have been bickering like this for so long.

[lxtruong]

Don't be silly, it's been a "mere" 725+ posts of namecalling. I suspect next people will start making fun of each other mothers, their hair, and not having a date to the prom.

[Radhnoti]

GT, the short forms are based on what style? I've heard 108 Lohan/Hero. What sort of history does this style profess? A family style/ethnic or regional specific? Is it fair to say it is not related to Tan Tui beyond, perhaps, a superficial resemblence? Or am I completely off on that?
It's interesting to note that my information indicates that ORIGINALLY our short forms were NOT taught as basics, instead various linkage forms were shown instead. So, I'm assuming that this 108 form style was originally taught as a whole?
I have TONS of history questions, but I'll stop with that. There should be an option on the shaolin-do main site..."Ask a question!" and you (or whoever can answer) sort through the submissions and answer a few questions every month.
Thanks for any help you can offer with this question.

[David Jamieson]

I don't know Fu pow, those werewolves all look alike to me.

buddha bing buddha boom!

cissshhhh

[norther practitioner]

tantui is fairly easy to spot.

[Fred Sanford]

I don't know Fu pow, those werewolves all look alike to me.

I have a hard time telling scooby doo apart from chewbacca? It's all so difficult.

If you have time be sure to check out the this website. The trailer for shaolin legends 3 with a seconds of Sin The bustin a move. http://www.shaolinlegends.com/v_legends_v3.html


."Ask a question!" and you (or whoever can answer) sort through the submissions and answer a few questions every month.

On the surface that sounds great but all they would do is spoon feed peeps more lies.

[Fred Sanford]

speaking of lies...........

Just a starting point... http://www.shaolincenter.com/training_kung_fu.html


Some relatively uneducated martial artists think it looks like Japanese karate. The people with real traditional training know it is the other way around – Japanese karate looks like our basics.

and.......


The most frequent comment we hear from our Chinese hosts when the first student performs his or her form is “You do really, really old, really, really traditional kung-fu.” Most of the material taught at the Chinese Shaolin Centers is several hundred years old and is not recognizable to the average kung-fu practitioner.

and.....

we offer Classical Ba Gua Zhang. “The 8 Changes of the Palm” is an internal system that combines an ancient form of Taoist Qi gong training known as "Walking the Circle" with the Buddhist tradition of using animal inspired movements for self defense. The art originated on Wu Tang Mountain and until the late Qing Dynasty (1644-1912), the art was virtually unknown outside of the Shaolin Temple.

and......


At the Chinese Shaolin Centers we teach very old, very traditional Chinese martial arts – the real kung-fu.

[Golden Tiger]

GT, the short forms are based on what style? I've heard 108 Lohan/Hero.

That is what I have always understood to be the case.


What sort of history does this style profess? A family style/ethnic or regional specific?

Not sure because I never asked. History wise, I think I was told that the 30 ones we do now were based off of the 108 but shortened and condensed because of repetition. They contained all the basic techniques needed to take the student up to black belt.


It's interesting to note that my information indicates that ORIGINALLY our short forms were NOT taught as basics, instead various linkage forms were shown instead. So, I'm assuming that this 108 form style was originally taught as a whole?

They were not taught that way since at least 1974, when I started. From speaking with those that were in it long before I was, that was never mentioned. For a long time, there was only 1-30 and 1-20 sparring taught period. Master Sin used to teach out forms to some of the students (Master Bill and a couple other) but only refered to them as "China Hand/Road 1, 34, 15 etc". Again, this was before my time and all heresay.


There should be an option on the shaolin-do main site..."Ask a question!" and you (or whoever can answer) sort through the submissions and answer a few questions every month.

Master Bill does this in class and on the ocassional weekend. He holds an open forum for people to ask him whatever they want. Next time he does it and I hear about it, I'll let you know.


GT - "And if your instructor is having issues at all, have him drop me an email.

GT, I think I know who you are, but REALLY I don't know you. How exactly would something like this go down. "

I doubt that you do, being that I have been out for a while and with the exception of a few real oldtimers, I am just another face in the crowd. As for how it would go down, send me a pm or have him with his problems. I would then relay any issues to the powers that be anonymously if he prefered and see if it couldn't resolved. I am a strong supporter of our system and want it to continue to grow. If my ties to the bigwigs can help, I will do what I can.

[David Jamieson]

Ok. I'm convinced!

If someone has to justify what they are doing that much, then...it is 99.999% resonable to ascertain they are full of sh.it. lol

tan tui is totally recognizable for what it is in each of it's iterations. 10 or 12. There are hallmarks to it that are easily distinguished.

Why can't they come clean and just sd what it is? Ie: Karate/Kempo with a pinch of Kuntao(maybe)

Here's why, because then it wouldn't make them different from the 500 other karate/kempo schools and would reduce the market share period.

Sure karate comes from China in an embryonic form, but like anything, it is what it is and the Japanese are the one's who developed it to what it is. Same with the Okinawan stuff. In other words, it is no longer Shaolin and hasn't been, but it is ok to pay homage like what say Shorin Ryu does. That is essentially the Okinawan school of Shaolin Kungfu.

Anyway, let me finish with a resunding "Nuh Uh!" lol:p

and furthermore, this argument is going to be 1500 years old one day. LOL

[Judge Pen]

I've seen tan tui and while short forms share some of the same principles, they are not tan tui.

GT, if you look at the old KET series, there were optional variations to the sparring techniques prior to being standardized to the 1-20 that are taught now. My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the sparring techniques are drills teaching us to apply basic techniques from our short fomrs in a sparring setting. Thus, they are not traditional, but an aid that GM The created to teach the basics to beginners.

[MasterKiller]

The world's most dangerous man?

And exactly when did Shaolin monks learn to use the Katana? :rolleyes:

And if you look on page 8 of this document, this is exactly the kind of bull**** promotion I'm talking about. Yeah, the abbot presented the steele to honor Sin The'. :eek:

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/ModernDayWarriorPart2.pdf

[Golden Tiger]

JP,

You are correct. Sparring techniques are just what the name implies. I guess he needed a way to show how to execute the moves from something other than a deep bo stance. I think the same is true for the ippon and hand-hand techniques also. We were shown the standard ones along with different footwork and ending moves. Same with the basic self-defense. It is not so much the step by step moves that are important, but that you have an understanding of the opponents (and yours) body mechanics needed to release the lock (hold) and return the favor.

I don't have the KET series but can remember watching it and I do still have the book that went with it. Another thing was that Master Sin and Master Hiang had their own slant on the sparring so that could also account for the differences.

[Judge Pen]

The world's most dangerous man?

And exactly when did Shaolin monks learn to use the Katana? :rolleyes:

And if you look on page 8 of this document, this is exactly the kind of bull**** promotion I'm talking about. Yeah, the abbot presented the steele to honor Sin The'. :eek:

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/ModernDayWarriorPart2.pdf

The katana thing always bugged me, but if you look at the "sword" form, it is weilded one-handed and used to clear around the back of the head as you would a dao so it's a misapplication of the katana. Using a katana as a dao.

Functional katanas used to be easier to find than functional daos.

[Judge Pen]

JP,

You are correct. Sparring techniques are just what the name implies. I guess he needed a way to show how to execute the moves from something other than a deep bo stance. I think the same is true for the ippon and hand-hand techniques also. We were shown the standard ones along with different footwork and ending moves. Same with the basic self-defense. It is not so much the step by step moves that are important, but that you have an understanding of the opponents (and yours) body mechanics needed to release the lock (hold) and return the favor.

I don't have the KET series but can remember watching it and I do still have the book that went with it. Another thing was that Master Sin and Master Hiang had their own slant on the sparring so that could also account for the differences.

I have the series and the book. In the series GM The demonstrated the sparring techniques so I think it was still open as to which one would be used in a standard curriculum. Also, I learned some of them differently under my first teacher vs. now. Master Mike would tell me that they were taught that way at one time, but now they are done this way. Just drills for applications of our forms as any good martial art should have in it's curriculum.

[MasterKiller]

The katana thing always bugged me, but if you look at the "sword" form, it is weilded one-handed and used to clear around the back of the head as you would a dao so it's a misapplication of the katana. Using a katana as a dao.

Functional katanas used to be easier to find than functional daos.

Well, what's sad is I've seen people at tournaments do this exact same thing. Not SD people mind you, but Kempo people trying hard to be kung fu. They wear their Gi with a sash around it and use a Katana like a Dao. It's pathetic to watch.

At any rate, I've never tried to slice an apple off of a classmate's throat with my Dao before.

[Golden Tiger]

The katana was used because the dao wasn't widely available back then. There were a few floating around but mainly due to WWII perhaps, the katana was readily at hand especially in the KY area. Master Hiang did use it to cut apples (and potatos, watermellons, you name it) off throats and stuff as did Master Sin.

That was very similar to when the Kwan-dao was first taught,all the ones in class were hand made. I remember when Brendan Lai first started carrying them, you would have thought they were made of gold or something!

[The Willow Sword]

IN the early 80's there was a revison of the forms taught out so that they would be more "western friendly". It is strange that there would be any revision to the supposed "older" forms taught out in the beginning. i was startled to hear that at the time. I would have actually wanted to learn the original formats no matter how "complex" or "difficult" they may have seemed.
i had noticed this change in the forms when i took one of my first trips up to lexington and i had a question about one of the forms(ie the green belt mantis form lo han chuan) what i was shown was completely different than what i had been taught in Texas. I had wanted to ask then about the revisions in everything but oh goodness gracious me that would have been disrespectful to do so :rolleyes:

This was also the seminar where i almost quit SD,,Sin the' was teaching out "bung bo mantis" and little did people know that i already had been taught the traditional and correct bung bo form from my previous teacher. what was being taught was nothing like what i had learned,,i became frustrated and thought at the time that i was being scammed,,so i quietly left and got my money back from the seminar. it was then that i went to my previous teachers house and told him where i was studying and what i was learning and THAT was when i was told about all the BS surrounding SD. I had to make a decision then,,would i stick with SD or leave it? At the time i had made a false realization that leaving the seminar was a mistake and that i had to make amends and pick up where i left off,,,,despite all that had been told to me by my previous teacher i decided that i would still be loyal to SD and i justified the difference in the forms as " well different teachers teach different things and this systems bung bo may not be the same as this other systems bung bo".
SO i went back to austin and profusely apologized to the head teacher and the other students for leaving like i did(not mentioning all the reasons why,,but telling them that i was frustrated at the material being taught and felt that i was having a melt down emotionally made it clear to me that i wanted to leave rather than cause a scene,,PLUS another truth as to my leaving was that i was ot used to being taught a whole form in a day) i had been taught in a traditional manner before and learned the correct bung bo form in about 3 months and was givenan additional 3 months to practice it and learn the applications therein.
again at SD you are taught these "forms" at an exceptionally fast rate only learning the moves and a couple of applications before you are then being taught another form.

anyway,,just sharing more and more insights and such,,,,,,you know even though the history is fabricated there and maybe allegedly certain forms there have been taken from other systems and modified to fit their own,,i still liked the curriculum for getting in shape and all,,,,,one thing that you can say about SD classes is that the conditioning classes can be brutal and they do kick your a$$ in to shape.

PEACE,,,TWS

[MasterKiller]

The katana was used because the dao wasn't widely available back then. There were a few floating around but mainly due to WWII perhaps, the katana was readily at hand especially in the KY area. Master Hiang did use it to cut apples (and potatos, watermellons, you name it) off throats and stuff as did Master Sin. Do they still teach it now that Chinese swords are available? Because JP implied it's still being practiced that way.

[wdl]

This was also the seminar where i almost quit SD,,Sin the' was teaching out "bung bo mantis".

Which form are you talking about? Thrust?

-Will

[The Willow Sword]

which form am i talking about?
uhhhh "BUNG BO crushing step"

[Golden Tiger]

Do they still teach it now that Chinese swords are available? Because JP implied it's still being practiced that way.

No, but there may be a student come in to test from another school from time to time with one. Usually saying that it was his fathers from the war, a family antique, etc.

All broadsword forms are taught with broadswords, all two-edge oneswith two-edged, Pa Kua sword with a huge version of the regular dao.


TWS, while your stories are told with some apparent good intent, your past dealings with the Texas group and issues you had will always put a slant on what you say.

As far as I know, and I was at the Sports Center in the early 80's, there has NEVER been a "westernization" of the forms to make them easier. There have been 2 attempts to standardize the material that both seemed unsucessful. The variations you describe in Lo Han do not suprise me but I do doubt that were as differnet as you implies.

As for the Bung Bo, that was the first time I had learned it so I have nothing to put it against.

[Judge Pen]

Do they still teach it now that Chinese swords are available? Because JP implied it's still being practiced that way.

No everyone uses Chinese swords now. But my first teacher had a very nice katana that he used because he purchased it before he could locate daos. My first Kwan dao was handmade.

[MasterKiller]

As far as I know, and I was at the Sports Center in the early 80's, there has NEVER been a "westernization" of the forms to make them easier. There have been 2 attempts to standardize the material that both seemed unsucessful. The variations you describe in Lo Han do not suprise me but I do doubt that were as differnet as you implies. I've heard that as well, from various SD people. That Sin The' had to dumb the material down because Americans didn't have the resolve to do it correctly.

You hear the same kind of stories coming from Shou-Shou and their Da Shifu, too. Even though he was a dumb American. HAHAHAHAHHAHA.

[wdl]

which form am i talking about?
uhhhh "BUNG BO crushing step"

Herm, ok. I was never aware that said form had been taught. I can't find the deal that used to be on the SDA website about previous seminars, etc either.

As far as Lohan goes your not talking about the Master Sin vs the Master Hiang way are you?

-Will

[Judge Pen]

I've heard that as well, from various SD people. That Sin The' had to dumb the material down because Americans didn't have the resolve to do it correctly.

I think that story started about by teachers that couldn't do the techniqes so they get modified to an easier technique. They then teach it the way that they can demonstrate it: Hence GT's reference to the attempts to standardize the material. You then hear things like "It's supposed to be this, but if you can't do that then just do that" type statements.

Ex: It's supposed to drop into a full split, but if you can't do that, then just drop into a hurdle stretch instead. The technique is still referenced, but not everyone can do the form the way it was intended.

[The Willow Sword]

TWS, while your stories are told with some apparent good intent, your past dealings with the Texas group and issues you had will always put a slant on what you say.

From Who's point of view? Yours? LOL. Yes i can see where SD people will see my posts as "slanted". :rolleyes:

But the "Issues" are circular,,and they all connect with each other in these posts.

from the point of view from most here that are NOT SD,,my issues relate with the issue that has always been at hand with SD and the rest of the CMA world.

you can belittle all you want what i have to write here. As i see it you are being the good soldier in your organization,,standing up for it,,,being defensive in the face of the attacks and countering with attacks of your own(as i once did)

but i challenge you to go up to Sin The' or Bill Leonard and tell them about your posts here on the forum,,and how valiantly you stand up for your school and art.
Explain to them all the "issues" at hand and see and listen to what they say to you.

i bet i know what they would say. but hey if you want to talk about things further i can Pm you with my phone # and we can talk civily and maybe you can then understand where i am coming from and where alot of people are coming from here.

WDL in answer to your question " No i am not talking about that at all, i never have even met Hiang the' or seen what he teaches,,this is all strictly sda"

Peace,,TWS

[GeneChing]

That's a funny concept - dumbing down the system for Americans. I can totally relate. Since we sell a lot of gear to the general public, I have what I call the "Bubba factor" which means that there's got to be something for 'Bubba' to understand. Ol' Bubba, he lives in a trailer park and lives off fast food. He looks up to Homer Simpson as a role model. Seriously, as a teacher, you do have to move from simple to complex concepts, but I'd never 'dumb' something down, once those were acquired. I can poke fun at Bubba, but we were all beginners at one time. Every man you ever did see was once a baby. That being said, it's not the beginners and babies that are to be judged. It's the seniors. I would hope that once they mastered the dumbed down stuff, they would move on to the real deal.

[wdl]

Gene, lots of Bubba's in Kentucky. (No offense Radhnoti or GT we've got our share in Tennessee too.) Then again, with your connections to Tiger Claw in Knoxville you've probably heard some Bubba stories from this neck of the woods.

TWS, what year was that seminared?

-Will

[Judge Pen]

Gene, lots of Bubba's in Kentucky. (No offense Radhnoti or GT we've got our share in Tennessee too.) Then again, with your connections to Tiger Claw in Knoxville you've probably heard some Bubba stories from this neck of the woods.

TWS, what year was that seminared?

-Will

I had no idea that Bung Bo was taught out in SD. I'd like to see our version as I've seen a version or two from mantis people.

[wdl]

I had no idea that Bung Bo was taught out in SD. I'd like to see our version as I've seen a version or two from mantis people.

Yeah me too. The only thing Mantis I see in the past seminar list was Pick and Play. He taught it in Lexington in 1998 according to the SDA website. Unless TWS left a LONG time ago, it's not on the SDA website(it only covers past seminars to 1997).



-Will

[MasterKiller]

FYI,
Shaolin-Do, the poster here, left SD after he went to Ft. Worth and showed his Bung Bo to some of Sifu Cottrell's guys. He said getting laughed at by the guy's girlfriend was the final straw.

[sean_stonehart]

I had no idea that Bung Bo was taught out in SD. I'd like to see our version as I've seen a version or two from mantis people.


SD Bung Bo has a different name. One incarnation of it is Yang Mantis from the Yin Yang 2 Man Set. Ask Yazen about it & what he did at the tournie in 03. He did 7* Bung Bo.

[Judge Pen]

FYI,
Shaolin-Do, the poster here, left SD after he went to Ft. Worth and showed his Bung Bo to some of Sifu Cottrell's guys. He said getting laughed at by the guy's girlfriend was the final straw.

Close, but it was White Ape Steals the Peach not Bung Bo. I've learned a version of this form from Jake Burroughs (Three Harmonies here) and actually found it similar to SD's version. There were differences, but not gross differences. I've also compared this form to two other versions and found them all different.

[Judge Pen]

SD Bung Bo has a different name. One incarnation of it is Yang Mantis from the Yin Yang 2 Man Set. Ask Yazen about it & what he did at the tournie in 03. He did 7* Bung Bo.

I knew Yazen did 7* Bung Bo at the tournament. I was one of his judges and scored him 1st.

Ying Yang 2 man set? Don't have it. Don't know anything about it. Did you have it Sean?

[Golden Tiger]

My mind is really slipping at the moment but the seminar history is:

199? Mantis Background and conditioning- 10 roads of something- and something else(I forget) taught at the Radison Hotel.

199? Mantis cont.- Seems like the two man training sets (7 hands , something lamb, etc) and Penetrating Hammer perhaps?

Then White Monkey steals the Peach, Pick and Play and seems like another one.

After that, he moved on to other forms.

Sorry for the dates and names, my brain is elsewhere this afternoon.

[wdl]

GT: Do you happen to remember when Thrust was taught?

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

From Who's point of view? Yours? LOL. Yes i can see where SD people will see my posts as "slanted".

Yes from my point of view. I can't speak for everyone else silly. But I would imagine that anyone that knows your past (mouth wrote a check your a$$ couldn't cash then got made cause noone would fight your fight for you) would see that you have a pattern.....slam SD/say the training was killer. Sound like a wee bit of schizophrenic good cop/bad cop to me. Anyway....


you can belittle all you want what i have to write here. As i see it you are being the good soldier in your organization,,standing up for it,,,being defensive in the face of the attacks and countering with attacks of your own(as i once did)

It is not my intent to belittle anyone (except see above and probably a time or two below). And like I said before, I won't waste my time defending the same old arguement any more.



but i challenge you to go up to Sin The' or Bill Leonard and tell them about your posts here on the forum

You would think after your last "challenge" you wouldn't throw that word around so much.* (See above concerning belittlement) But I have talked about these issues with Bill a few time and was told to generally ignore you all. (I do wish I had never been told of this site, its like crack!)

So TWS my friend, chill out. Enjoy what you do now, let go of the past. Its like talking smack about every girl that ever dumped you. It's kinda childish and it accomplishes nothing.

Sorry I couldn't remember more about the Mantis seminars.

[sean_stonehart]

I knew Yazen did 7* Bung Bo at the tournament. I was one of his judges and scored him 1st.

Ying Yang 2 man set? Don't have it. Don't know anything about it. Did you have it Sean?

I thought you were.

Don't have it. It was taught before I got there & not since I left.

[MasterKiller]

But I have talked about these issues with Bill a few time and was told to generally ignore you all. Why? What was his reasoning for not answering the criticisms directly?

[The Willow Sword]

But I would imagine that anyone that knows your past (mouth wrote a check your a$$ couldn't cash then got made cause noone would fight your fight for you) would see that you have a pattern.....slam SD/say the training was killer. Sound like a wee bit of schizophrenic good cop/bad cop to me. Anyway....


I have NEVER asked ANYONE to fight my fights for me. What i asked for was SUPPORT in the challenge and i was initially given that support and then the support got withdrawn at the last minute. It shows a LACK of INTEGRITY on the part of the one who gave it then took it away. YOU DONT DO THAT to someone and expect them to remain loyal to you and your organization especially when the history is a bunch of cr@p.

Yes bill told you to ignore all this right? and yet you are still here arent you? dont give me that " this site is like crack" BS to me. you make your choices just as i did.


Peace,,TWS

[MonkeySlap Too]

Probably because he knows that the answers he would give would collapse like the bag of lies that they are.

See the 'Shaolin Center' quotes on the last page. Hello?

[Golden Tiger]

GT: Do you happen to remember when Thrust was taught?

-Will


Is Thrust and Enters the Door (Tang Lang Tse D'ju) the same thing? Been a while since I heard reference to "thrust and Blitz". Master Hiang taught all of the other Tang Lang forms out in the early 80's late 70's perhaps? Thrust, Blitz, Chein. As for "Trap", I missed it if he taught it.

Those aren't generally encouraged (Trap and Blitz) so I didn't keep up with them.

[lxtruong]

Is Thrust and Enters the Door (Tang Lang Tse D'ju) the same thing? Been a while since I heard reference to "thrust and Blitz". Master Hiang taught all of the other Tang Lang forms out in the early 80's late 70's perhaps? Thrust, Blitz, Chein. As for "Trap", I missed it if he taught it.

Those aren't generally encouraged (Trap and Blitz) so I didn't keep up with them.

I think the TN folks call it Thrusts open the door or some such. It's the same I think.

[wdl]

Yeah, it's the same I believe.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, it's the same I believe.

-Will

Yep. Praying Mantis Enters the Door a.k.a. Mantis Thrust. It's listed on the SDA website. Why isn't that one "encouraged", GT?

[wdl]

Yep. Praying Mantis Enters the Door a.k.a. Mantis Thrust. It's listed on the SDA website. Why isn't that one "encouraged", GT?


I think he was talking about Trap and Blitz and not Thrust.

-Will

[Ground Dragon]

I was there at the Radisson when Sin The' taught out Bung Bo, but I think it was called something else, not sure though. I still have the videotape for that one and a couple of others in a box somewhere.
The four original ones were Tang Lang Tse Ju, Pu Fu, Chung Sen and Chien (I'm sure I spelled at least one of those wrong). I picked up three, missed Pu Fu.
I'm curious too as to why some of those aren't encouraged.

[lxtruong]

I was there at the Radisson when Sin The' taught out Bung Bo, but I think it was called something else, not sure though. I still have the videotape for that one and a couple of others in a box somewhere.
The four original ones were Tang Lang Tse Ju, Pu Fu, Chung Sen and Chien (I'm sure I spelled at least one of those wrong). I picked up three, missed Pu Fu.
I'm curious too as to why some of those aren't encouraged.

I don't encourage people to do Tang Lang Chien, but mostly because it just makes you really tired. :)
Actually it's a sorta fun form, but my god it has a ton of kicks, very tiresome.

[Fu-Pow]

As far as I know, and I was at the Sports Center in the early 80's,

I bet Sin The was pulling some serious tail at his sports center in the '80s.

Imagine it.......the cocaine era, you have a mullet, huge muscles and own a "sports center" right when athletic clubs were becoming the rage.

I bet he drove a camaro, wore butt tight white jeans and a half shirt and blasted the Whitesnake as he pulled in to his "Master's Only" parking spot everyday.

It would have driven the b!tches wild!!!!!

Aah....the good old days....right Golden Tiger?

Now look where he is.

Right back where he started....teaching the Gwai Lo chop suey fu.

[serene_dragon]

Yin Yang 2 man set, very nice kata. I have that one it is Part 3 of the set.

Bung Bo, Im not sure but it seems like at the seminar (Shaolin Monkey Fist) I heard that name mentioned. I could be wrong. I like Shaolin Monkey Fist, it has alot of good applications to it but its not really one of my favorites.

[The Willow Sword]

People here are scratching their head saying "bung bo? bung bo?" "uhh was it called that? i dont remember that?" " was it white monkey steals the form,,,uhh i mean peach"? :D

IT WAS ADVERTISED IN "95 AS BUNG BO CRUSHING STEP" and only ONE of you aside form me corroborates that it was.
Now maybe later on the name was changed because maybe some 7* people then caught wind of it and called up and made a fuss. hell i dont know,,,,,im not lying about it NOR am i misinformed as to the name of the form that was taught out then.

What about "white monkey comes out of the cave"? remember that mantis form that was taught? i have the vid for that one,,AND the SD mantis training vid as well.

Sheeesh. :o

PEACE,,,TWS

[MasterKiller]

After I saw the pics of that sports complex, I came to two conclusions:

A) Sin The' really likes to see his name on big signs. Sin The' Karate Tournament, Sin The' Sports Complex...

B) He got his beach muscles from pumping iron ala Arnold, not from kung fu training. Heck, in some of those early pics, he has a flabby belly hanging over his belt.

[wdl]

People here are scratching their head saying "bung bo? bung bo?" "uhh was it called that? i dont remember that?" " was it white monkey steals the form,,,uhh i mean peach"? :D


LOL

Actually I took the time and found it referenced on a few SD sites this afternoon.

-Will

[wdl]

B) He got his beach muscles from pumping iron ala Arnold, not from kung fu training. Heck, in some of those early pics, he has a flabby belly hanging over his belt.

I know his son was a competition weight lifter and he blew his knees out during a squat lift.

-Will

[MasterKiller]

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/shaolinironpalm.pdf

Check out his flabby gut. Hardly the cut Sin The' that is spalshed all over the every other SD website.

His beach muscles must have been developed around 40 or so...

[wdl]

His beach muscles must have been developed around 40 or so...

So you can get ripped when your older!! Gives me hope yet. :D

If you saw how much the man ate, if he had an injury that kept him away from training he'd ballon up like that pretty quick. Might have just been a phase, or... he could have been fat and did the Arnold thing like you said.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

I'm curious too as to why some of those aren't encouraged.

Never got the full gist of the story on "Blitz". I just remember that some one did it at a tournament and Master Mullins stopped it. Wouldn't swear to it but I think it had to do with Master Hiang ( "his" form or something). Tang Lang Chien and Tse D'ju are still alive and well though. I didn't get Poo Foo (Trap ) either so I wouldn't know it if I saw it.


Ground Dragon -I was there at the Radisson when Sin The' taught out Bung Bo

Thought you left to the dark side (just kidding) years before that GD. Heck, I probably know you.


I bet Sin The was pulling some serious tail at his sports center in the '80s. I bet he drove a camaro, wore butt tight white jeans and a half shirt and blasted the Whitesnake as he pulled in to his "Master's Only" parking spot everyday.

It would have driven the b!tches wild!!!!!

Aah....the good old days....right Golden Tiger?


Actually, it was a big Lincoln, and I think it was pre-Whitesnake but yes, there were some fine ladyz there. Course I was too young to flex my pimp hand. That and all the big time wrestlers worked out there (Macho Man Savage, Leaping Lanny, Pistol Pez and even Miss Elizabeth (RIP)...ahh the good old days.



People here are scratching their head saying "bung bo? bung bo?" "uhh was it called that? i dont remember that?" " was it white monkey steals the form,,,uhh i mean peach"?

Sorry TWS, I was working and it has been about 10 years since I even looked at that stuff. I am too lazy to get the tapes out and my notes from the classes are a mess but if I get real bored someday, I will do so and list it all out.



If you saw how much the man ate, if he had an injury that kept him away from training he'd ballon up like that pretty quick. Might have just been a phase, or... he could have been fat and did the Arnold thing like you said.

The "flabby" days were back in the 80's when he was trying to get the SportCenter going. The muscle days came in the early 90's when he went back to training 8-10 hours a day. He invited some of us to work out with him (I was in decent shape) and I lasted about 30 mins. If nothing else, the man works out like a mofo. The reason he never would teach us "10,000 Lotus Blossoms" was because no one could keep up with the background training....although we did a teaser of it ......shhhhhh


Thats all I have for tonight.....

[themeecer]

I bet Sin The was pulling some serious tail at his sports center in the '80s.

Imagine it.......the cocaine era, you have a mullet, huge muscles and own a "sports center" right when athletic clubs were becoming the rage.

I bet he drove a camaro, wore butt tight white jeans and a half shirt and blasted the Whitesnake as he pulled in to his "Master's Only" parking spot everyday.

It would have driven the b!tches wild!!!!!
Ha! You talk like it is in the past tense. We still comment about his pimping skills to this day. He is always hanging out with beautiful women. It is enough to make me contiplate a mullet.

I do miss the sports center .. I was just a kid then, but I remember it well from going up for testing. I also remember getting my tail handed to me from a 7 foot tall 450 pound amazon woman. (Or at least that is what it seemeded like to a tiny 10 year old) She mopped the floor with my little body. Had me on the floor and I look up and my parents are in the door laughing. Well the woman picks me off the ground and asks me if I was ok .... I said yes. She then drops me and starts beating on me some more. It was most humiliating. I have been looking for her for years ... paybacks are coming. :)

[wdl]

Ha! You talk like it is in the past tense. We still comment about his pimping skills to this day. He is always hanging out with beautiful women. It is enough to make me contiplate a mullet.


Yeah, wasn't it like, a only few years ago he was seeing the playboy playmate out in California?

meecer with a mullet... that would be like Jackie Chan with an afro and a bucket of KFC. :eek:

-Will

[themeecer]

Hasn't Jackie sported a mullet before?

[wdl]

Hasn't Jackie sported a mullet before?

Yeah, it's kinda like Master Sin's. It's a half mullet half who knows what.

No one questions the man's hair or his shoes. Why? Because he's got mojo with the ladies.



-Will

[Ground Dragon]

Never got the full gist of the story on "Blitz". I just remember that some one did it at a tournament and Master Mullins stopped it. Wouldn't swear to it but I think it had to do with Master Hiang ( "his" form or something). Tang Lang Chien and Tse D'ju are still alive and well though. I didn't get Poo Foo (Trap ) either so I wouldn't know it if I saw it.


Thought you left to the dark side (just kidding) years before that GD. Heck, I probably know you.
.....

That's pretty funny, I've been told that comment before by my teacher, that we're the'dark side'. All in fun though. Wouldn't care though, it's always cooler to be the villain :cool:

I haven't been around that long, I was a newly minted yellow belt at that seminar back in 96.

[BM2]

Just cause you turned to the Dark Side don't go around sayin " Who's your Daddy." :D
Hey, that would be funny on a T-shirt. Darth Vader with Who's your Daddy on it !

[Golden Tiger]

Just cause you turned to the Dark Side don't go around sayin " Who's your Daddy." :D
Hey, that would be funny on a T-shirt. Darth Vader with Who's your Daddy on it !

I think you have been drinking the bong water again......Put the pipe down and slowly step away...... :D

[Judge Pen]

After I saw the pics of that sports complex, I came to two conclusions:

B) He got his beach muscles from pumping iron ala Arnold, not from kung fu training. Heck, in some of those early pics, he has a flabby belly hanging over his belt.

There were times when he was in better condition than others. When I first started, well after the decline of the sports center, he was cut like the pictures show.

[Starchaser107]

growing old and getting fat suxors :mad:

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, wasn't it like, a only few years ago he was seeing the playboy playmate out in California?

meecer with a mullet... that would be like Jackie Chan with an afro and a bucket of KFC. :eek:

-Will

I don't know about the playmate, but the two ladies he brought to the Lexington tournament from Cali in 2003 were fine.

[Golden Tiger]

growing old and getting fat suxors :mad:


Preach on brother.....

[MonkeySlap Too]

Good luck running a business and staying cut. One thing I can't deny Sin The' - the man has maintained some killer conditioning... good genetics for it help, but that's a lot of hard work to look like that.

[Judge Pen]

Good luck running a business and staying cut. One thing I can't deny Sin The' - the man has maintained some killer conditioning... good genetics for it help, but that's a lot of hard work to look like that.

My genes are too lazy to look that cut.

[lxtruong]

My genes are too lazy to look that cut.

You genes and your arms and your legs and your abs and .... :)

Hey man, I'm there too. My conditioning is no where near where it should be.

[MasterKiller]

Good luck running a business and staying cut. One thing I can't deny Sin The' - the man has maintained some killer conditioning... good genetics for it help, but that's a lot of hard work to look like that.I dunno about "maintained." Most of those videos and pictures are from the 70s and 80s, but he did look good for someone that old. He looks like a worn-out old man in most of the newer pics.

[Radhnoti]

Just to be clear, all the entire group of us have been able to say we know about the short forms is:
Some schools mistakenly call them tan tui.
It's a 30 "form" summary of something we've heard was called 108 steps of the Lohan.
This has been cited as THE BASE OF OUR SYSTEM and that's all the history we've got...
Other systems that I've learned a bit about fare similarly, for example two of the forms taught at 1st brown...Connecting fist and 5 directional palm (my favorite things I've learned in SD). Sometimes people classify them as "China Hand" but I wonder if this isn't revisionist as calling our short forms tan tui seems to be, sort of attempting to paint on a more recognizable kung-fu paintjob. The older students often say that they heard it was classified under the category of "Tiger" which is VERY confusing to me (none of the trademarks of Tiger that I've come to recognize in other SD forms). This is one of the things I begged my instructor to find out about by asking HIS teacher to clarify the history (a fellow SD requires that students address as Master), and when he did so the answer was that he didn't know and why ask such pointless questions. He couldn't even clear up what category to place those forms into...adding his opinion that they shared quite a few similarities to various bird-like forms :o

In a seminar I attended with one of GM Sin's earliest students he mentioned that the short forms weren't as linear as they now are, he then showed us a couple and the way they'd been changed. It was a big difference...and looked quite a bit more difficult than the way we do them now.
Here's the best idea of the way they should be performed I've read about "short form theory", it was put together by one of the TN students (as far as I know not a master) back when everyone was allowed on the Mullins forum. By the way, that one time shining example of free exchange of information is (I believe) ANOTHER casualty of petty politics.

Written by KungFuGenius on the Mullins forum:
Here's a little short form theory I've thought up, don't know how right it is, but hey, why not get some feedback/discussion from my fellow SD people. Anyways, here it is.

Short Form Overview
Short form is the foundation of future material taught to the student. It teaches footwork, punching, grabbing, breaking, sweeping, and kicking. It also promotes strength and flexibility throughout the body. Each block is a strike, and each strike is a block. Short form also teaches the use of the entire body as a single weapon. Hip and shoulder movement is very important, as they are the roots of the power in the arms and legs.

Attacking Power of Short Form
In Short Form, your punch should start in mid-step and extend completely when the step lands. Before the attack is done, the hips should rotate with the fist, therefore extending the reach and power of the punch. When you step forward with the right foot, the left pushes the body forward, use this momentum to throw the arm and increase your striking power. The harder the back leg pushes the stronger the attack.
When the hips and shoulders rotate with the punch, the body turns sideways and extends the arm further, which increases range and power. When the momentum of the back legs push and the twisting of the hips and shoulders is combined, a lot of power can be produced. It doesn’t matter what the movement is: punching, thrusting, smashing, blocking (in front, above, or to the side), this method stays the same.
Kicking in Short Form is quick but strong. Pressing the hip out with the kick just before the moment of impact will ensure that you kick through your opponent, considering you’ve judged the distance accurately (neither too close or too far). Kicking can mess up the hip movement for the next attack. If you kick with the right foot, the right hip has shifted forward. Since most short forms end with a kick, and the kicking leg lands to start the next attack, having the hip already pressed outward when you set the foot down will cause you to lose power in your next attack (which is usually a hand attack). Because of this, rechambering the kicking leg is very important, as that sets the hip back into place, ready to rotate with your next attack, whether it be a punch or kick.
In addition to hip and shoulder movement, each strike should be done as hard as possible. .Making each strike as hard as it can takes a lot of work and this training has no true ending. Though you will learn to strike harder, you are still striking as hard as you can, thus draining your physical strength. This goes back to the theory that Short Form is the foundation of all future material. Learn to punch and kick hard now so time won’t be wasted making them powerful later.

Balance and Stances of Short Form
Stances in Short Form are deep, which creates strength and balance in the legs. Balance is very important because without it, the hip and shoulder rotation is awkward, which then in turn decreases the striking power. Rechambering the attacks will help your balance. Deep stances will also improve balance as well as flexibility and strength. In many styles, the stance is considered the essence and foundation of the art. Without a strong foundation, a building will crumble. Ideally, the thigh should be parallel with the ground when standing in the Bo Stance. A great deal of flexibility and strength is required to maintain the stances. The only way to improve balance, strength, and flexibility in Short Form is to do Short Form. Again, Short Form is a foundation, build the foundation now so the building won’t crumble.

Blocking in Short Form
Every block should be crippling to the enemy. When blocking the head, the arm goes up in arc to clear the attacker’s limb out of the way. This clearing also begins the hip rotation. Blocking in front is done as if you’re attacking. Remember that each block is an attack and vice versa. Blocking as if you’re striking will make sure the opponent will be hurt no matter what he does.

Stepping in Short Form
Stepping is done as if stepping over a fallen opponent. Step in a straight line. After each short form, bring the heel up almost to kick yourself in the butt, then step through. When you step, your body should not rise higher than the height of your bo stance; the same goes for when you throw an attack. This builds strength and balance in your steps.

Apologies to KungFuGenius for posting without his permission, but I thought this was very good and AT THE TIME it was posted on a public forum. :(

[lxtruong]

I dunno about "maintained." Most of those videos and pictures are from the 70s and 80s, but he did look good for someone that old. He looks like a worn-out old man in most of the newer pics.

Well he has sustained some injuries, so I think that he hasn't been able to keep in as good shape as he would like. That being said, he still looks phenomenal for a man of his age. He's 61? 62? years old. Most 60+ year olds can only dream of looking like he does, even when his conditioning isn't tip-top. I know that when I'm 60, if I even look half as good I'll be happy.

[Judge Pen]

That was an excellent description of the way our short form should be done and the principles behind them. I too miss they open forum days and rue the politics behind it. That was the same post I was going to make, but I was going to have to re-type the entire thing so I hadn't gotten around to it.

Tiger, China Hand, Long Fist I've heard all of the descriptions for 5 Directional Palm and Connecting Fist. It's groupled with a Golden Tiger form that is obviously Northern in origen.

As for my conditioning, I have an excuse for that, but I'm working hard to get over it. As for Master Sin, I defer to what lxtroung posted.

[wdl]

It's groupled with a Golden Tiger form that is obviously Northern in origen.


The opening and closing in that form is another subject of debate. LOL

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

I dunno about "maintained." Most of those videos and pictures are from the 70s and 80s, but he did look good for someone that old. He looks like a worn-out old man in most of the newer pics.

All of those were from 1988-93 or there abouts. The "business man" look was the 70's and 80's. Someone have their dates mixed up. He got ripped and cut prior to moving to LA for the movie stuff.



...Just to be clear, all the entire group of us have been able to say we know about the short forms is: .............This has been cited as THE BASE OF OUR SYSTEM and that's all the history we've got...

Rad, you should know the extent of what history is offered with SD. If it is a history rich style with a bullet proof lineage, perhaps this is not the style for you. If you are happy with what SD does have to offer, by all means continue. But, on the other hand, you feel the need to constantly justify the history and training, you are wasting your time.



Connecting fist and 5 directional palm (my favorite things I've learned in SD). Sometimes people classify them as "China Hand"

That is because when they were taught to a select few MANY years ago, that is what they were called. 18 and 22 I think. Others mistakenly call them Tiger forms because of Ching Kung Fu Hu Chien that they are taught with(which, by the way is Golden Cyborg nets/traps the tiger, not golden mountain tigernet trap form as it is sometimes refered to as). They are "sister " forms. The China hand reference comes from one using a claw, another a fist and the other and open palm. The biggest problem is that most aren't perfectionist so they don't take the stuff down verbatim. Over time it all mutates. Called Evolution.




I begged my instructor to find out about by asking HIS teacher to clarify the history (a fellow SD requires that students address as Master), and when he did so the answer was that he didn't know and why ask such pointless questions.

Are you saying that the only reason that this person should be addressed as Master is because SD requires it? If you don't have respect for this person, who taught your teacher, who taught you.....



In a seminar I attended with one of GM Sin's earliest students he mentioned that the short forms weren't as linear as they now are, he then showed us a couple and the way they'd been changed.

I may have misunderstood the other day what you all was refering to. The forms didn't change per se but yes, the way some were executed did. It wasn't done because of the "western" curse, just because over time the circlular motion was straightened out.


back when everyone was allowed on the Mullins forum. By the way, that one time shining example of free exchange of information is (I believe) ANOTHER casualty of petty politics.


Man, I have been kissing every butt in Tenn to try to get back there but it just ain't happening, so yes, politic's suck. As for petty, everything is relative.....

[MasterKiller]

Others mistakenly call them Tiger forms because of Ching Kung Fu Hu Chien that they are taught with(which, by the way is Golden Cyborg nets/traps the tiger, not golden mountain tigernet trap form as it is sometimes refered to as).
Golden Cyborg? :eek:

[The Willow Sword]

Hee hee hee,,yeah the golden cyborg. You know the Sd people can just say it without thinking twice about it. the term as it was justified to me in years past was that was Sin the's interpretation of a chinese word that meant something along the lines of "golden living statue" or something like that.

Peace,,,TWS

[Golden Tiger]

Similar to the the "Pekufo" in our Hsing I animals. The translation is not exact so it was said to be like a pheasant, quail and foul.

[Starchaser107]

::blowing whistle::

:D :eek:

[MasterKiller]

Man, it just keeps getting better.

[themeecer]

Also like another funny translation from Pa Qua ... Ducks came out as a herd

I have heard the golden 'cyborg' a couple of times. That is awkward to say .. I simply use the Chinese name.

[Starchaser107]

upon hearing cyborg explained as "Golden Living Statue", people said "ok, very well then", and went on about thier business? :confused:

[Judge Pen]

That is because when they were taught to a select few MANY years ago, that is what they were called. 18 and 22 I think. Others mistakenly call them Tiger forms because of Ching Kung Fu Hu Chien that they are taught with(which, by the way is Golden Cyborg nets/traps the tiger, not golden mountain tigernet trap form as it is sometimes refered to as). They are "sister " forms. The China hand reference comes from one using a claw, another a fist and the other and open palm. The biggest problem is that most aren't perfectionist so they don't take the stuff down verbatim. Over time it all mutates. Called Evolution.

Just like Lo Han Chien and mantis are sister forms?

If we posted the symbols for Ching Kung Fu Hu Chien could the more educated here translate? Lots of things GM The says gets lost in translation (ducks flying out of herds, golden cyborgs etc)

[Starchaser107]

Ducks coming out of a herd is excusable....

that in no way compares remotely to

Cybernetics...

[MasterKiller]

All of those were from 1988-93 or there abouts. The "business man" look was the 70's and 80's. Someone have their dates mixed up. He got ripped and cut prior to moving to LA for the movie stuff.
So how's that coming along, anyway? Last time I heard, the Chinese government was going to foot the bill for most of the production. :rolleyes:

I have an idea for a sequel: The Grandmaster 2: Kung Fu Cyborg.

[MasterKiller]

Kevin Alber, our movie script writer, finally finished the rewrite of our move script The Grandmaster. It is 184 pages long, so it will be a 3 hours of epic adventure of martial arts movie. Again the hero of the movie is Shaolin. My life story only served as a tool to bring out & accentuate the story of Shaolin. I read the script over & over again and am convinced it is going to be a great movie. Once this move is out, it shall have a tremendous impact on the future of Shaolin-do. We are working on polishing it now and plan to turn in the script early next week to our producer, hence the movie company. Kevin & I are very excited about this. Because this script is so good we expect it will do great in move theaters across the country. That means it will have the following sequels made. That means it is very likely to have our dream, a once a week TV show, made as well. I feel great for our future & yours & the future of Shaolin-do. Looking forward to see you at the tournament. With kind regards, I remain:

Sincerely,

Grandmaster Sin The


WHOA MAN! He wants to take over the world!

http://www.shaolin-do.com/events/tournaments/1999Mar/letter.html

[Golden Tiger]

If we posted the symbols for Ching Kung Fu Hu Chien could the more educated here translate? Lots of things GM The says gets lost in translation (ducks flying out of herds, golden cyborgs etc)

Just as I explained to JP, when describing it to us, he talked about a huge golden statue or guardian with a huge eye in the center of the head, similar to that in mythology. He called it the Golden Cyborg but I think that he meant to call it Cyclops. It was funny and kinda stuck.

[sean_stonehart]

How about maybe an Arhat (Lohan) that assisted Buddha?? :confused:

Kinda like in Chen Taiji...

Jin Gung Dao Zhui ... Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar ...

Throwin' a bone here...

[Thunaric]

Last we heard the movie was supposed to start production this year and be out in 2006. Supposed to have alot of Su Kong. Maybe it will give more information.

Circus idea with the whip chain and the bicycle riding -- It does seem like there is alot to do with the circus in all this. Seems like there often was circus activity with martial artist activity in China.

We are taught the "connected fist", the "five directional palm/fist" and the other one that is always said in chinese in varying ways are tiger forms. Also, the Lo han form is supposed to be a mantis form.

Checked out this Chang style tai chi / Shuai Chao / Chi Gung school last night. The tai chi I saw was very very different than what I have learned at Shaolin do. This stuff was done less slowly. It was also done with less breaks and with less sharp movements. Very smooth. I've never seen Grandmaster Sin The or the local master really demonstrate tai chi though. This school I checked out was very different in other ways too. The guy was like, "I'll teach you what you want to learn." Also, when I said "pa' kua' " he corrected me and said "b'agua" really quick.

The journey continues.

[Starchaser107]

gt

a mythological creature with one eye in the center of it's head is called a CYCLOPS

a cyborg is a mechanized human being. Part man part robot and belongs to the world of science & technology / science fiction

[themeecer]

Also, the Lo han form is supposed to be a mantis form.

The green belt Lo Han Chien form is a precurser to learning our mantis forms but isn't in itself an actual mantis form. It is often called such though.


The tai chi I saw was very very different than what I have learned at Shaolin do. This stuff was done less slowly.

It was also done with less breaks and with less sharp movements. Very smooth. I've never seen Grandmaster Sin The or the local master really demonstrate tai chi though. This school I checked out was very different in other ways too. Mine has zero breaks and no sharp movements. (Granted if you were watching a chen tai chi version you would see sharp movements, which I don't know any of) Also I do it at varying speeds .. for strength and endurance I will do it at around a 20-25 minute completion time. Other times I will do it much quicker.


The guy was like, "I'll teach you what you want to learn." Also, when I said "pa' kua' " he corrected me and said "b'agua" really quick.
Simply the dialect. Sounds like the jerk we have teaching from the flea market here. He is pushing 300 pounds and claims to teach "Real Field Tested Combatives" in Pa qua and hsing i. His business cards reads: No silly rituals, no endless kata, no mindless bowing.

[Judge Pen]

How about maybe an Arhat (Lohan) that assisted Buddha?? :confused:

Kinda like in Chen Taiji...

Jin Gung Dao Zhui ... Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar ...

Throwin' a bone here...

You threw a big bone: In my lyrics for Chen 83 it says Cyborg pounds the mortar. . . . sounding more like he meant to say Arhat. Maybe he meant to saw flock instead of herd too.

And if you saw sharp movements you weren't watching someone who knew how to do tai chi correctly. I was taught to do it very slow, but for the reasons themeecer said.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Define "sharp" - Chen Taiji has very explosive moments of issueing in a number of the forms. Very quick, very explosive.

Makes you wonder....

[Fu-Pow]

Simply the dialect. Sounds like the jerk we have teaching from the flea market here. He is pushing 300 pounds and claims to teach "Real Field Tested Combatives" in Pa qua and hsing i. His business cards reads: No silly rituals, no endless kata, no mindless bowing.

Actually it's not "just the dialect." Pa Kua and Ba Gua are different romanizations (Wade-Giles and Pin Yin respectively) but the actual pronunciation sounds more like Baa Gwaa. You won't go anywhere in China where they say Pah Kwaa. That's just a misunderstanding of the romanization system.

Here's a comparison:

http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/chin_chart.htm

[serene_dragon]

"Tai Tse Chien - Fist of Grand Ultimate Mercy" or I have heard it called Mercyfist or Buddafist, I was told this is a sister to Tai Chi. It has the very fast and very explosive movements in it.

[themeecer]

Actually it's not "just the dialect." Pa Kua and Ba Gua are different romanizations (Wade-Giles and Pin Yin respectively) but the actual pronunciation sounds more like Baa Gwaa. You won't go anywhere in China where they say Pah Kwaa. That's just a misunderstanding of the romanization system.

Here's a comparison:

http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/chin_chart.htm
I agree ... but the sound is between a P and B sound. And the other is between the K and the G. Just as in the word kung/gung fu.

[PangQuan]

this is correct.

[Radhnoti]

GT - "Rad, you should know the extent of what history is offered with SD. If it is a history rich style with a bullet proof lineage, perhaps this is not the style for you. If you are happy with what SD does have to offer, by all means continue. But, on the other hand, you feel the need to constantly justify the history and training, you are wasting your time."

I've always known to what knowledge I've had access, but how often do lower (meaning even 3rd blacks in the case of my instructor) belts hear things like this:

GT, earlier in this thread - "...contact one of the 6 or 7 masters that are the the Lexington gym. They would be more than happy to help...". You stated clearly that they KNOW the fine points of all the forms AND the history. Now you seem to be acknowledging that much is unclear or unknown? :confused: Am I wrong in my interpretation of your suggestions?

To be honest, I DON'T care about lineage or history, at least it's not important enough to drive me away. The problem I have is that it's the rare higher-up in SD that ADMITS to not knowing things about the history. If NO ONE knows, fine. There are lots of styles with "nebulous histories", especially kuntao styles which is where I think SD should fall as far as classifications go.
But, it's important that SOMEONE in SD step up to the plate and admit to what ISN'T known. At the VERY least it's something that should be explained to the students. How much time would I have saved had I known not to waste my time (or other's time) looking for answers to certain questions? It IS a misrepresentation to pretend full knowledge the way so many higher-ups in SD seem to have done.
I stated that SD requires my instructor's teacher be referred to as "Master" to specify that I've tried to "ask a master", which seemed to be your main suggestion. I respect his ability and the years he's put into his training. However, his tendency to gloss over what he didn't know and eventually play the "Honor GM Sin and don't ask rude questions" card did tend to bother me. So to be clear, overall, I'm glad for my time spent in the style.

[sean_stonehart]

You threw a big bone: In my lyrics for Chen 83 it says Cyborg pounds the mortar. . . . sounding more like he meant to say Arhat. Maybe he meant to saw flock instead of herd too.

Brother Pen... for your reading enjoyment... http://www.chenstyle.com/methods/schools/xin_jia/index.html

Read the Yi Lu Routine...



And if you saw sharp movements you weren't watching someone who knew how to do tai chi correctly. I was taught to do it very slow, but for the reasons themeecer said.

Depends on the Taiji...

[BM2]

I dunno about "maintained." Most of those videos and pictures are from the 70s and 80s, but he did look good for someone that old. He looks like a worn-out old man in most of the newer pics.

I have noticed that several times on this and other forums you have made statements of other's looks. Would you show us a pic of yourself so that we may critique it? As you are in your middle 30s giving us your age is not needed. One showing us how "ripped" you are would suffice.
HA HA HA HA
I bet it gets posted right after Hedge's video :D :eek: :rolleyes: ;)

[Starchaser107]

Buddha 3000 and his cybernetic warrior attendant decimate the mortar

[wdl]

This is MasterKiller at the office:

MasterKiller (http://doug.truecutblades.com/toiletninja.jpg)

:D

-Will

[BM2]

Remember, the job not finished untill the paper work is done. :o

[Golden Tiger]

I've always known to what knowledge I've had access, but how often do lower (meaning even 3rd blacks in the case of my instructor) belts hear things like this:

GT, earlier in this thread - "...contact one of the 6 or 7 masters that are the the Lexington gym. They would be more than happy to help...". You stated clearly that they KNOW the fine points of all the forms AND the history. Now you seem to be acknowledging that much is unclear or unknown? Am I wrong in my interpretation of your suggestions?


History wise, they know what has been told to them. Some of it written down, some from being in Master Sin's, Hiang's, Leonard's, Smith's and Green's classes. The ones that were there from the beginning. Is it complete? Doubtful. Is it 100% fact based truth? Who knows? Are the ones there willing to share what they know? ABSOLUTELY!

As for the forms, they do know quiet a bit of the finer points, due to the fact that the things that you are learning they have been doing for close to 30 years under the DIRECT instruction of Masters' (see list above). I have been in a hour class where short kata 1 was disected. A stance and two moves. It doesn't get much finer than that. Or one where a hook kick was discussed for close to 2 hours. So, this knowledge you are looking for is there. So, perhaps Mr. R should come down and spend a little time seeking this so he can pass it on to you (which by the way he has been strangely absent of late, but I digress..)



The problem I have is that it's the rare higher-up in SD that ADMITS to not knowing things about the history. If NO ONE knows, fine.

Some are better than others at admitting a lack of information. Heck, I think I know a lot but even I don't know it all. There, happy?




I stated that SD requires my instructor's teacher be referred to as "Master" to specify that I've tried to "ask a master", which seemed to be your main suggestion. I respect his ability and the years he's put into his training. However, his tendency to gloss over what he didn't know and eventually play the "Honor GM Sin and don't ask rude questions" card did tend to bother me.

I can not speak for Master B. but if you wish, I will discuss this with him if you wish. He is a great guy and I am sure that if your "annoyance" at his answers was known, he would go out of his way to help.


Again, I am just trying to give MY version of the history, finer point and insights to SD that I have learned. Some relies on memory (which is slipping I admit), some on notes and some on interptations. Is everything correct? I doubt it. Is it what I think to be correct? ABSOLUTELY. Take it or leave it.

[The Willow Sword]

I have been in a hour class where short kata 1 was disected. A stance and two moves

A stance and two moves dissected in an hour? That long? For Short Kata 1? :confused: Oh and Kata is japanese BTW ;)



Or one where a hook kick was discussed for close to 2 hours.

Discussing a hook kick for two hours? :eek:

Well goodness gracious me you guys really ARE brimming with extensive and complete Temple Knowledge arent you? I mean to discuss the finer of the finer points of a hook kick for 2 hours and SHort "Kata" 1 for an HOUR (only a stance and two moves) :o

Why dont you guys sit down with your "Masters" and DISCUSS the finer of the Finer points OF YOUR HISTORY AND LINEAGE. Talk about THAT for lets say hmmmm
4 hours? :rolleyes:

TWS

[Thunaric]

Okay, this is what I meant, when learning tai chi at my shaolin do school the movements have always been taught in a very segmented way. At least this is the result in how the students all perform it -- white through black. For instance with the Horses Mane maneuver when you are finished with the hand movements and the twist to the side, it is taught that there is a stop before moving back the other way. Now, I'm sure the higher ups don't do it this way, but nobody really watches and offers critiques or corrections while the students are going about forms or moves. So, the result is very "sharp" stops between each move. Comparing this to other tai chi I have seen, mostly on video, it is very different.

I did have one instructor that was an anomaly in regards to this. I have had 7 instructors for the tai chi portion in my 2 years at shaolin do. :confused:

[themeecer]

For instance with the Horses Mane maneuver when you are finished with the hand movements and the twist to the side, it is taught that there is a stop before moving back the other way.
Um .. which tai chi are you talking about? I have no horses mane manuever in mine.



Now, I'm sure the higher ups don't do it this way, but nobody really watches and offers critiques or corrections while the students are going about forms or moves. So, the result is very "sharp" stops between each move. Comparing this to other tai chi I have seen, mostly on video, it is very different.

While on the subject of videos .. if you want to see some good examples check out Paul Lam or Yang Jwing Ming. If you and I are speaking of the same Tai Chi form, then there shouldn't be any 'stops' in it.


I did have one instructor that was an anomaly in regards to this. I have had 7 instructors for the tai chi portion in my 2 years at shaolin do. :confused:

7 instructors?!?!? Were you a problem child or something, and no one wanted to teach you. Hehe That is a lot of changes. I contend that your main reason for your problems is what we discussed in PMs, and I hope you don't mind me sharing. You are taking two different programs at the same time. That is way too much material to assimilate at any level. I have always been a fan of learning the external first then the internal for the sole fact of the conditioning properties. It is a lot easier to whip you into shape with the external first. (Granted done correctly, tai chi is awesome for the legs .. you should see how sexy mine are now. Hehe)

[The Willow Sword]

I think that the move that he is talking about is called " Parting the Horses mane". although it has been called "parting the waves" as well and is a COMMON term for that move in your standard yang style tai chi. or what i like to call PRC yang style tai chi.

as for stops in tai chi. as i learned the Sd taichi form there were no stops persay but segments that transitioned in to the next set of moves(which were repeats of the same move done on the other side of the body(ie: parting the horses mane on the right,,then parting the horses mane on the left).

haha you know its funny about the tai chi,,you are taught to do it reeeeeel slooowwww. but in fact you are moving slow but not at a snails crawl,,that snails crawling slowness in the Sd tai chi that i was learning inhibits chi flow and is counter productive in my opinion.

as for Buddah fist in SD. that was the ONLY form that i really liked in the system,,but it has NOTHING to do with chen style tai chi nor is it a sister to tai chi chuan. it is another hybrid of what sd likes to do and claim as the "lost" forms.
although i did see Mullins do the Sd buddha fist form and he did it rather well,,AND the SD 14th white crane. i also liked that one as well. seems to be the only form in sd that actually looks and feels like real CMA, in my opinion.

Peace,,,TWS

[Thunaric]

Parting the Horses Mane

Yes, that is what I am talking about in the 24 form. At the point where you step forward and rock back on the forward foot, everyone in my classes kind of stops there for a few seconds before turning back the other way. Again though, all of this is usually taught by a first degree or second degree black sash so I think alot of mimicking goes on. Somebody started doing it this way and it became the norm. And also, we were told once that we should take 20 minutes to do the 24 form, and this is very slow indeed. Dunno on the ramifications positive, negative or neutral on this.

I agree that there was probably too much I was learning at once. But, it was sold to me that way. Originally I had planned to just learn the "kung fu" side in the normal progression but an e-mail was put out by the then sifu of the school that learning both would be a good idea and there was even a special rate if you did them both at the same time.

[themeecer]

Oh .. you're talking about tai chi 24. I don't know that one.

[Golden Tiger]

Why dont you guys sit down with your "Masters" and DISCUSS the finer of the Finer points OF YOUR HISTORY AND LINEAGE. Talk about THAT for lets say hmmmm
4 hours? :rolleyes:
TWS

Why do you sit down with one of them sometime and we will discuss the finer points of getting that bug out of your a$$.

You appear to be a very bitter boy TWS, let it go....you will feel so much better in the long run. I am very sorry that your trainiing wasn't up to the "challenge", but please, try to move on.

[lxtruong]

I like to sit around and BS as much as the next guy, but I don't think that any even semi serious martial artist would say that 4 hours spent discussing lineage is a better use of time than 4 hours discussing mechanics of techniques.

[MasterKiller]

I have noticed that several times on this and other forums you have made statements of other's looks. Would you show us a pic of yourself so that we may critique it? As you are in your middle 30s giving us your age is not needed. One showing us how "ripped" you are would suffice.
HA HA HA HA
I bet it gets posted right after Hedge's video :D :eek: :rolleyes: ;)
That's me with the monk spade from Taiji Legacy 2003.

I'm 32 years old, 6'0, 175 lbs. I have a 32-in. waist.

You want a closer look? Come to OKC.

Now, you pony up old man.