Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[One student]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;944732]Disagree 100%. IF you change a form, it's not always ego. Sometimes the application changes the form, sometimes body training changes the form. Sometimes you change a form because what works for some other dude doesn't work as well for you. Sometimes the form changes in your hands and you don't even realize it. END QUOTE

Then in all those cases, you are not doing "the" form, but something else. That is different. A key in your comment is the "not always" ego. I have heard tales of teachers who learn the material, and then immediately change something in it so it is "theirs." I'll agree with you to the extent that the teacher is not attempting to portray what he/she is teaching as what they were taught, as opposed to "this is my form." Isn't that exactly one of the many rumor-based criticisms of SD?

I wasn't trying to suggest someone can't practice their stuff their way. I know lots of people who have made up their own "routine," a form of sorts, to practice techniques in rhythym and succession the way they like. One might even change a move here or there, because they can't do the right one the way it should be (at the time). But they don't pass it off to others as being anything other than that. Nor have they taken material taught by one with decades of original training in TMA, and in a short time "improve" it by themselves. In many cases if the choice is between the material as taught by GM X, or as taught by student of GM X, modified by them, I think there is a distinction worth noting, and worth knowing. Sure, some students get to the point of earning the right to do that, but I would go so far as to call it a selective few.

And there is also a difference when the form as "options" -- you can do it this way, or that. According to one with the authority and credibility to make that decision.

And I'll agree to the extent, sometimes there is a reason, other than ego. Sometimes not.

I've commented before, when someone starts questioning the quality of what they are being taught, including to the extent of changing it on their own, thinking they can do it better "this way," time to get a new teacher.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I wasnt being serious

Another application that I find to be extremely difficult to pull off if at all possible is the bird break. There are also tons and tons of bird breaks in SD lower and brown belt material.

Is there an alternate application to this movement that would be easier to pull off other than full out breaking the wrist?


I need something to visualize and drill that could more easily be done to someone

Yes. I saw a shuai jiao practitioner utilize the same movement (minus the broken-leg stance [his was like a cat stance]) to hook the leg for a sweep. Probably the correct motion, if you ask me. I'm willing to bet ten bucks you could youtube shuai jiao and find it---I was told it was a common throw.

SD has striker-itis. Everything's a strike, I swear. They even add two strikes into CHen 18 on the 180 degree flourish on the last movement of "Jade Maiden Plays with Shuttle." WTF? A Leaping double tap? I'm thinking....no. Even in Yang tai chi. Single whip for instance. My god, you could use it as a strike, but what's the chance you'll land it....LOL. It's a basic throw involving mild grappling. One of the first things I learned outside SD. IF you go learn tai chi elsewhere, you're often introduced to more of its grappling aspects--but the teachers still can't perform it usually unless you step back and then lunge punch...LOL. BTW, TTM, I see chin-na as any stand-up grappling. LOL...I introduced "Chin-na sparring" to some buds of mine. You basically wrestle and look for opportunities to pull off locks. I've gotten a lot better. Pllus, you get to work on your hooks and clinching and take-down defense. There's no striking allowed. Only grappling, sweeping, throwing, wrestling, and locking. When we do push hands at SD, since everyone's into the Tai Chi striking, they get tense, or they don't bother to actually do "push hands". I just do my thing, get "lit up" LOL by what I consider bad push-handers, and move on to the next person.

I

If they really wanted to do "push hands" by their reckoning, I'd clinch 'em and knee 'em in the face, throw 'em, throw a bomb overhand right, or kick the **** out of their lead leg. Not everyone in SD does bad "push hands", but there are quite a few that do.....and I mean quite a few. But if you can get over it, and get "beaten" without taking it personally, it's not so bad. You just know who you can't learn **** from concerning tai chi applications. The good push-hands guys can light you up even as they set up their throws. There's a few of 'em around ATL that can.

I think, when people who don't like to spar or experiment on classmates are trying to rationalize something in SD, their default answer is "strike!". LOL....it's almost always wrong.

[Baqualin]

the shaolin that i practice is some pretty old material. over all the years these routines have been around, you can be sure the sets have been modified and updated accordingly.

with that said i have two ways i perform my sets. one way, the way that i show to others who want me to show a form, or if i were to teach the set to someone, is the way i was taught by my teacher, the way his teacher taught him and so on back into history, the traditional representation of the style and its routines.

then there is the way i have that is personal to me. the techniques are all there, but the range of motion is slightly tweeked, the depth/hight of the stances are also modified. all of the modifications ive made to my personal set are all based on my modern understanding of combat, the way people fight now, my personal experience, and the way my body likes to move.

it reminds me of something i once heard some shaolin monk or other say, which i wont nail on the head but i remember the message, essentially;

the essence of shaolin boxing is adaptability. to be able to adapt to your environment and to use what is available to succeed. this means that a shaolin boxers martial arts will be influenced by his surrounding area. the martial arts in his region, the cultural aspects, the regional crime and violence, etc. all come into play when we are developing ourselves as martial artists.

my version is much more wordy to be sure, but its the same message.

this is a huge aspect as to why people will change forms. usually though when someone does that, they will retain a 'pure' version of their form. pure being used in the sense that this was the way the form was passed onto them by their teachers, and will be retained with the goal of passing on the same material in the same fashion. minor details here and there will always be adjusted from person to person, but roughly the form will preserved be the same to pass on the way it was recieved.

BINGO:cool: Well said!!!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Then in all those cases, you are not doing "the" form, but something else. That is different. A key in your comment is the "not always" ego. I have heard tales of teachers who learn the material, and then immediately change something in it so it is "theirs." I'll agree with you to the extent that the teacher is not attempting to portray what he/she is teaching as what they were taught, as opposed to "this is my form." Isn't that exactly one of the many rumor-based criticisms of SD?

I wasn't trying to suggest someone can't practice their stuff their way. I know lots of people who have made up their own "routine," a form of sorts, to practice techniques in rhythym and succession the way they like. One might even change a move here or there, because they can't do the right one the way it should be (at the time). But they don't pass it off to others as being anything other than that. Nor have they taken material taught by one with decades of original training in TMA, and in a short time "improve" it by themselves. In many cases if the choice is between the material as taught by GM X, or as taught by student of GM X, modified by them, I think there is a distinction worth noting, and worth knowing. Sure, some students get to the point of earning the right to do that, but I would go so far as to call it a selective few.

And there is also a difference when the form as "options" -- you can do it this way, or that. According to one with the authority and credibility to make that decision.

And I'll agree to the extent, sometimes there is a reason, other than ego. Sometimes not.

I've commented before, when someone starts questioning the quality of what they are being taught, including to the extent of changing it on their own, thinking they can do it better "this way," time to get a new teacher.


Sure. I do think forms should be taught standard. When I help out lower belts, I show them the standard routine. IF they ask why I don't do the standard routine exactly when I practice, I say--because I'm not doing "standard routines." LOL.

[tattooedmonk]

I agree with your statement about many of the practitioners of SD having Strikeritis.

I LOVE Chin Na, ever since I started learning and breaking down forms I have found so many grabs, throws, and takedowns within the material ,just like you have.

It is amazing how much you can find if you look deep inside the material . You just have to have and open mind, follow through specific ranges of motion and utilize proper body mechanics.

It is that simple.

The internal arts alone have so much grappling in them. I have barely scratched the surface. The other day I found a grappling /takedown move in Snake Creeps Down the Vine.

[tattooedmonk]

Lets talk about a technique for example the spinning technique to one knee in Tai Pang Sin Kune (sp) ?, anyway what do you feel the helicopter move is for ?? KC I see it as a grappling/ throw /takedown technique.

[Shaolin Wookie]

FACEPALM...I just realilzed you were writing "bird break" rather than bird "beak". Are you talking about the standing arm break catches from "Tai Peng Sin Kune"?

If so, deflect a punch (if you're doing the tech. exactly like in form, w/ crossover step to the left, with right leg in front, it'll have to be a left handed punch) kind of like technique 1, but rather than controlling the shoulder, rotate off of the lower bicep or elbow while pulling back with the wrist. If you land it correctly, you've got a standing armbar (chin-na 12) while kneeling, with the exposed elbow poised for a nasty break, using your knee as a chopping block and your right forearm as the takedown/break striking surface. Of course, the point is to drive the arm down to your knee mid-rotation, so you get leverage. Can be done, but not so much from a striking reaction, so much as grappling for holds. One of my fav's....also present in Fei Hu Chu Tung, in the Shaolin-Tao schools, if you choose to stress that particular app.

As for the arm-break catch application.....kind of retarded in my opinion. Too risky and you can't really practice it.

[Facepalm]

Thanks for an explanation of those moves from "great bird spreads its wings" But what I was referring to is lohan#18 specifically.

I get that they just grabbed your arm but it seems like it would be really difficult to twist their arm and break it in this way. I was wondering if this movement could be interpreted in other useful ways.

Thanks alot guys :D

[tattooedmonk]

Thanks for an explanation of those moves from "great bird spreads its wings" But what I was referring to is lohan#18 specifically.

I get that they just grabbed your arm but it seems like it would be really difficult to twist their arm and break it in this way. I was wondering if this movement could be interpreted in other useful ways.

Thanks alot guys :Dpost 11665.....

[Facepalm]

Cool I must have missed it thanks TTM:D:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Facepalm...



Short form 18 begins with the mini chin-na of reversing the grip, but the rest of the short form is actually the exact same as #4--a front sweep. The point isn't to break the arm---do something you can actually practice in class with regularity. Use the straightened-out arm for leverage. Keep his face away from his shoulder with the flourish (your extended right arm)--this keeps him from retaining his balance. (this is also the point of sparring tech #10 IMO, but that's another story).

I've had people tell me you can't practice this sweep safely, but it's really a common sanshou throw. I've been tinkering with it for a while now.

If you're practicing #4 with a partner, or even just as a form, really thrust your right hand across your body---you're looking for leverage by getting it to the opposite side of the opponent's neck (since you're left-side forward, you're trying to get your right elbow close to the right side (his right) of his jaw. When you rotate your hip and sweep, try to touch his head to your right hip. Sometimes this is enough to get him to the floor or stumbling off to the corner (LOL sidedkick 'em while he's unbalanced). The other arm secures a hook or just assists the throw by pushing on the right side of the opponent (I prefer a hook, since you retain control of an arm when he falls). If you rotate your waist, this throw is safe and easy. You can even transition to a frontside headlock and do a one-legged squat, throw over your shoulder type throw, and finish with a Tang lang back roll to secure a mounted frontside headlock---but that's a different throw, kind of. You don't even have to really "kick up" underneath your sweep. You just have to make sure you catch his right leg as you rotate and extend your right foot and then lift slightly. You can even take both legs if your opponent's your size, for a nasty takedown.

If you're doing #18, it's a half sweep, but it's still the same sweep and it gets the same effect. I prefer the full sweep, but a half sweep can do the trick. Sometimes the half sweep is better for both legs since you retain a better base--but you really have to rotate your hip on it.

If you're practicing with a partner, just have him perform a forward left shoulder roll for his own protection. If he doesn't roll, he lands face down at your feet. If you've got an arm, you can press down with your foot on his shoulder blade and crank his arm 'till he taps.

this is one of my favorite throws, and yes...you can do it safely. Not exactly the way I was taught the app...but it's the one that works, and you don't have to change anything in the motion.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Edit to above:

By "hook with your other arm" above, I meant: secure a lazy underhook. If you hook him too tightly, you'll actually hold him up---thus defeating the purpose of the sweep.

When you get good at this one, practice where your opponent steps forward on the front sweep (over your foot), but keeps his balance. Then transition to a backsweep a la #7. These are really great sweeps and combinations. But for the transition to #7, definately go for both legs, and use your right hand to press forward/down on your opponents chest. You should end up with control of his right arm (but only if you switch to an overhook with your left arm before the sweep). Then it's time to practice your armbar submissions---a kneeling figure 4 or transition to an armbar the ground...LOL.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The best way to train your frontsweep is to have your opponent take a right lead stance (you stand your left-shoulder-to-his-right-shoulder with him), then reach across his chest with your left hand (palm to his chest, thumb to floor, flat--not grabbing, or else you'll be holding him up) and sweep his right leg with your left foot as you try to make a big arcing circle to your left hip with your left hand. It's the same sweep, done from a different side. But it's good if you're not good at your sweeps, because there's less chance of tweaking out someone's knee.

Same as # 4, though. You can do this sweep with the position in #18, but it requires a little tweaking on your part, since you'll be half-sweeping with your other leg. The main keys to it are--don't grab, use leverage, always pull with your elbows and arms straight, and pull them to your hips as you rotate.

Makes your sweeps nasty.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm trying to get some people to help me video some of these throws myself. Not for ego---but I find most new students don't have any desire to practice short forms, mostly because they don't get them. But if they did understand them, they'd probably practice them all the time, and with a partner...LOL! Until then, there are some close paralells in the following vids I just found:

1. 1:00 in--- (elbow blocking #4, more or less). He's using his right for an underhook rather than for leverage. He's also using gi grabs for holds. SD's "holds" depend on leverage, since you don't always have a gi on or a grab like that available (at least, we don't have gi's in SL-Tao). SD requires body rotation and maximized hip rotation. So take that into consideration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPpBSn_F_wM

2. 21 seconds in--Lian Wu Zhang's backsweep. The guy in this vid does it pretty lazily IMO, and relies more on a jujitsu base. But if you make your "triangle" hold around his neck tighter, you don't have to pick up your back leg on the sweep. You just backsweep and pull forward with your arms. I like this one, because you can do it when you lock up with your opponent and start grappling hard. You can try for a triangle choke and sweep, or do it with an underhook and an overhook/wrestler hold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FFP6AWvxEA&feature=related

3. This is a cool demo I just found. shows form/throw and likeness/differences between them. This is almost like the Shaolin Bird throw I was talking about to Facepalm. Throw begins about 50 seconds in. Guy ends in a bow stance. THe version I saw pulled back into a cat stance. This guy's looks like it would have more power though. Notice how the hands make the same bird circle, more or less. (However, I think we rotate the other way, if I'm not mistaken). I'd have to play with this one a little more to figure out how to describe it. (Our verson, not hte vid's)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzLe0V6U3fU&feature=related

Later....

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL...what's funny is I've never practiced/studied at a chinese martial arts school where they'll teach you these freakin' devastating and useful techniques as the very first thing you learn. Ususally you get retarded, one-step ippon-like sequences alone, which are somehow more "Chinese" than ours--probably because they're less useful :eek:. Unfortunately, depending on your teacher, you just might not get the most useful application from the short forms in SD. The teacher from my school frequently teaches takedowns, throwing, sweeping, and ground fighting workshops, but interest is often limited. I don't think people get just how integrated those elements are in the core material.

You've got to get a classmate, or a lower belt--who can't say no if you say: "dude, get over here. You're going to be my guinea pig." LOL.....and then throw them around, and trade off.

I didn't get the best techs at first, when I asked or when they were shown to me, b/c nobody really showed me on a short-form to application basis (that is, the apps as I now understand them). I was often in the school (it's a 7 day a week school, pretty much--that's pretty rare), so I wasn't always under the head master's instruction. Over time the short forms made more sense--a lot more sense than some of the techs some other blackbelts showed me when I was a lower belt. Hopefully I can pass some of my apps and training methods on. Doesn't disrupt the teaching flow, but it might make it more fight-applicable.

Nothing against KAT...I like some of the striking/take-down applications, but they're not always utilizing the short forms for maximum efficiency against a resisting opponent.....and many start from a gi grab--which is not fight-applicable exactly.

It's the throws and sweeps. # 4, 7, 18, etc. are definately not Tan Tui or Lohan, IMO. They're short forms taken from an art like shuai jiao or something, or just basic throwing/sweeping techs that are 100% effective. I guess that's why most arts outside of "Shaolin-certified" contemporary/fake-traditional wushu have them...LOL.

[arinathos.valin]

Hey gang...

Gonna throw in my two cents regarding changing forms...

In my opinion, forms were a way for people to try to communicate core concepts of the art to students in an era where there was no video and literacy rates were low. In each of the forms are principles of movement that should be understood, and most importantly, internalized.

Forms are, to a certain extent, based on the founders' strengths and abilities. The inventor of the form found that certain ways of movement worked for him/her in a fighting situation. The form is a way of cataloging how to apply those moves and the body mechanics and principles of movement underlying those applications. However, not everyone has the same strengths and abilities and body habitus of the originator of the form. If one's body or limitations of movement would make the original application ineffective, it is next to useless for that individual to continue trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, so to speak. Changing the form in subtle but significant ways, may help the practitioner do the application effectively, OR may help them find a completely new application for that move.

The founder of the form already had the benefit of having internalized the principles of movement that the form entails. They already knew how the move worked. We, on the other hand, are trying to get our bodies to learn what the form originator already had. One of the main problems I found with strong emphasis on forms is that one can find really cool applications for just about any movement until the cows come home... but if those principles of movement are not internalized, they will be completely ineffective in an actual situation. I think we're all familiar with the "brown belt syndrome" where a student who has so many cool new applications in their head can't think of the right one to use, and then gets popped in the head with a simple straight jab. Real fighting situations, and even sparring situations, can be wild, unpredictable, and chaotic. Watch the people sparring at the next tournament. Some of them will have entered in forms competition and done remarkable, beautiful katas... but when it comes time to use it in sparring... they're not using those moves! It's usually a jump around punch punch kick affair, and doesn't look a thing like the form they were just doing.

IMHO, forms training can be demanding, aesthetically pleasing, and can transmit important information to make someone a better fighter. However, I think that a slavish devotion to the form itself is like mistaking the finger for the moon, so to speak. The important thing is the underlying principles the form is trying to teach, rather than the form itself. It's kind of like copying Shakespeare. One can practice their penmanship/ calligraphy, and memorize long sonnets, but ultimately, if you make a beautiful handwritten copy of Romeo and Juliet, you have just that... a copy. I think that a true master will take those words and letters, and phrasing that he's learned from studying, and create something new... based on their own experiences and knowledge.

[tattooedmonk]

:cool::D You must have this stored / saved so that anytime the subject of forms comes up all you have to do is pop this in!?.:D:cool:

[arinathos.valin]

LOL! Actually, some of this stuff has been circulating in my head for a while, and this topic just gave me the opportunity to put some of these ideas on paper, so to speak.

I hope it sounded good, at least... ;)

[kwaichang]

Long Tasseled Sword on you tube I like it KC

[tattooedmonk]

Long Tasseled Sword on you tube I like it KCwhich one??

[Facepalm]

So Elder Master David sometimes talks about the China trips that they take with students every few years.

He will often say that a student will ask him:

"omg what if the plane that you GMSKT and EMSS and the rest of the high level students from CSC crashes, omg wont the art be lost"

Then he goes on to talk about how GMSKTs is focused on preservation of the art first and foremost without even giving any mention to the existence of the whole east coast shaolin-do organization or their elder masters (i.e his contemporaries in the art)

I mean I know these peoples names for crying out loud but I feel it would be rude to raise my hand and ask him about this infront of the class.

Did the Soards have a falling out with them, or what, or is he just trying to make himself seem more special to the students, or do I really not want to know the answer to this question.

[tattooedmonk]

So Elder Master David sometimes talks about the China trips that they take with students every few years.

He will often say that a student will ask him:

"omg what if the plane that you GMSKT and EMSS and the rest of the high level students from CSC crashes, omg wont the art be lost"

Then he goes on to talk about how GMSKTs is focused on preservation of the art first and foremost without even giving any mention to the existence of the whole east coast shaolin-do organization or their elder masters (i.e his contemporaries in the art)

I mean I know these peoples names for crying out loud but I feel it would be rude to raise my hand and ask him about this infront of the class.

Did the Soards have a falling out with them, or what, or is he just trying to make himself seem more special to the students, or do I really not want to know the answer to this question.Yes, they did have a falling out , yes ,he is making himself seem more special and yes, you do not want to know.:D

[kwaichang]

Its all a big rotten Political Mess. Reminds me of other styles and systems of the past it really SUCKS, people who dont care about the art are in charge and its all a vieing for power and position KC

[OldandUsed]

That is true and it is one of the major reasons I left after being in the SD for quite a while. I remember the John Fernandez deal and thought it was pretty bad. Little did I know that the same scenario would play out several more times before I had enough. The funny/sad thing is that some of the worst offendors are the ones that preach honor and respect and the martial way. Hmmmm.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I would hope that once the people with issues/schism-hangups are out of the picture, the art would come together again. The material between SD and ST isn't that different. Some different interpretations of movements, some cosmetic changes--but it's the same stuff, built on the same principles.

I wonder why martial arts in general are so privy to lineage quarrels and general squabbles anyways.........

It's like a friggin' soap opera.:rolleyes:

I get the feeling, though, it'll become more schismatic. W/O GM The' certifying the black belts himself, it'll be up to individual masters to do that, unless there's another open-minded dude like GM The' that takes over and is willing to travel/test students with slightly different forms. I imagine that with school/branch rifts as they are, some masters will be spitting fire. Not all. There are a lot of cool masters from other branches out there. But some might.

With all the criticism out there about SD, I find--quite ironically--that the meanest, most conniving critics are actual SD practitioners. Just look on Youtube, and read SD comments. Or read comments by SD dudes here on video performances. Most people who share the practices of an art they have a passion for by posting vids get ripped apart by SD practitioners.

There's rarely a ===
"Good job. Keep up the practice."

It's almost always===

"Dude, you have no understanding of your material. You need to practice before you try to represent the art. You don't deserve your belt." OR some **** like that.

I find that very, very, very sad. Where's the love?

People hide behind their own hangups, cast invective against those without hangups, and inevitably destroy any sense of community there could be between branches, etc.

So sad.

[Baqualin]

Old & used, Golden Tiger, OTD, BQ (if I left any old timers out sorry) are the only ones that participate on this forum that really know what has happened down through the years and what's going on now. We were all here before David & Sharon and most of the rest. Nothing is going to change and will only get worse after GMS passes on....best thing to do is get the most out of your training and forget the political BS....there's nothing anyone can do about it now. GMS has tried to keep things standardized from the beginning including the name....it didn't happen....everyone wants to go out and do their own thing (only a small part of what has happened) and it has gotten to big to control. The only ones who suffer are the students. Things to keep in mind, most of the Main Masters east & west (including David & Sharon) were students of GMS & the elder masters of the east..... they were taught here in Lexington. The other.....GM Sin knows who his most loyal students are and they benefit from it....straight from his mouth not hearsay..
Best

JUST KEEP TRAINING AND LEARN ALL YOU CAN....FUK THE REST:cool:

[Baqualin]

I would hope that once the people with issues/schism-hangups are out of the picture, the art would come together again. The material between SD and ST isn't that different. Some different interpretations of movements, some cosmetic changes--but it's the same stuff, built on the same principles.

well said...if their following those principals

I wonder why martial arts in general are so privy to lineage quarrels and general squabbles anyways.........

It's like a friggin' soap opera.:rolleyes:

I get the feeling, though, it'll become more schismatic. W/O GM The' certifying the black belts himself, it'll be up to individual masters to do that, unless there's another open-minded dude like GM The' that takes over and is willing to travel/test students with slightly different forms. I imagine that with school/branch rifts as they are, some masters will be spitting fire. Not all. There are a lot of cool masters from other branches out there. But some might.

With all the criticism out there about SD, I find--quite ironically--that the meanest, most conniving critics are actual SD practitioners. Just look on Youtube, and read SD comments. Or read comments by SD dudes here on video performances. Most people who share the practices of an art they have a passion for by posting vids get ripped apart by SD practitioners.

True to an extent....but when I see someone in our lineage ( On the master level) doing a form such as our first Pa kua and their not displaying the basic principals of that style....I will say so.

There's rarely a ===
"Good job. Keep up the practice."

JP's videos have always gotten praise....even from outsiders

It's almost always===

"Dude, you have no understanding of your material. You need to practice before you try to represent the art. You don't deserve your belt." OR some **** like that.

Haven't really seen that on here...maybe on Utube....but really, the majority of the students AT ANY SCHOOL aren't very good and the really good ones don't post anywhere...their too busy working out:)

I find that very, very, very sad. Where's the love?

I totally agree with you here...instead of cutting them down they should send them a personal message and tell them to pull the video till they can do it the proper way....offer help of course:D

People hide behind their own hangups, cast invective against those without hangups, and inevitably destroy any sense of community there could be between branches, etc.

So sad.

very sad!! egos will do that to you

[OldandUsed]

I agree with that. The martial arts are supposed to be something for personal development and protection. Not to stroke an ego. It has been my unfortunate experience that way too much ego is demonstrated by many of the "masters" in the system. While I freely admit to personality conflicts and philosophical differences with some of the first 108, I will always hold SD as my primary art and I love the benfit I received from it. I try to pass on the best and allow the student to make their own mind up on how they will use it. I consider it personal as you practice it to the point that you can make it a part of you. Regardless of whether you stay in the "club" or not, it is still yours.

GMS gave those of us that got our BB from 1-108 his Shaolin hero patch. This was supposed to be after the 108 primary forms of the temple.

[tattooedmonk]

would you say from an unbiased perspective that there is ego coming from all sides and not just oneside over the others???

I have seen alot of disloyalty, disrespect and dishonor from many of the instructors.

I see that in alot of ways things have become too rigid and in others too flexible.

[tattooedmonk]

Old & used, Golden Tiger, OTD, BQ (if I left any old timers out sorry) are the only ones that participate on this forum that really know what has happened down through the years and what's going on now. We were all here before David & Sharon and most of the rest. Nothing is going to change and will only get worse after GMS passes on....best thing to do is get the most out of your training and forget the political BS....there's nothing anyone can do about it now. GMS has tried to keep things standardized from the beginning including the name....it didn't happen....everyone wants to go out and do their own thing (only a small part of what has happened) and it has gotten to big to control. The only ones who suffer are the students. Things to keep in mind, most of the Main Masters east & west (including David & Sharon) were students of GMS & the elder masters of the east..... they were taught here in Lexington. The other.....GM Sin knows who his most loyal students are and they benefit from it....straight from his mouth not hearsay..
Best

JUST KEEP TRAINING AND LEARN ALL YOU CAN....FUK THE REST:cool: From what I know about the situation, this is correct.

Individual school names is ok in my opinion, what do you think?

I believe the art speaks for itself, a name is just a name.

SD/ ST is the same thing. This is just symantics and really is non intrinsic to the art.

The art has to evolve to become valid in this day and age.

It seems that some changes like the name ST instead of SD, changing the uniforms to a chinese version, etc. can benefit the art.

As you can see among the schools run by Master Nance, Master Mullins and Master Grooms it has.

I understand the loyalty, honor and respect to the traditions passed on by Ie Chang Ming and Master Sin but, if it wasnt alright with Master Sin why would he approve of these changes?? And why should anyone else be upsetabout these changes?

Change is a part of life.........

[OldandUsed]

Absolutely!

[kwaichang]

It is when these changes get in the way of the sytem and training itself that it is a problem. For ex: you cant train here unless you wear this uniform, or you cant teach in this state because you cant or dont train with this instructor. If you do this form different in say Georgia than in Nevada you cant teach. How will i MAKE MONEY FROM YOUR SCHOOL IF YOU PAY HOMAGE TO LEXINGTON AND WANT TO TEACH IN SAY GEORGIA. THIS IS WHERE THE CHANGE AS IT IS CALLED IS NOT A GOOD THING. THERE ARE THOSE THAT HAVE TRAINED IN MANY AREAS AND WANT TO TRAIN BUT CANT OPEN A SCHOOL OR TRAIN WITH THE PEOPLE 1 -2 MILES FROM THEIR HOUSE DUE TO THE CR@@ or disagreements this splits the system itself. I cant train with a guy I have known for 10 years because an EM doesnt want me to . This has nothing to do with the Shaolin or MA ethic at all. More a lack of ethic Sorry for the caps. KC

[Baqualin]

would you say from an unbiased perspective that there is ego coming from all sides and not just oneside over the others???

I have seen alot of disloyalty, disrespect and dishonor from many of the instructors.

I see that in alot of ways things have become too rigid and in others too flexible.

yes..............................:)

[Baqualin]

From what I know about the situation, this is correct.

Individual school names is ok in my opinion, what do you think?

I believe the art speaks for itself, a name is just a name.

SD/ ST is the same thing. This is just symantics and really is non intrinsic to the art.

The art has to evolve to become valid in this day and age.

It seems that some changes like the name ST instead of SD, changing the uniforms to a chinese version, etc. can benefit the art.

As you can see among the schools run by Master Nance, Master Mullins and Master Grooms it has.

I understand the loyalty, honor and respect to the traditions passed on by Ie Chang Ming and Master Sin but, if it wasnt alright with Master Sin why would he approve of these changes?? And why should anyone else be upsetabout these changes?

Change is a part of life.........

If you've ever been a parent of multiple children........sometimes after they cry, complain, make excuses, throw fits....you finally say fuk it and let them have their way. This part has been all about marketing...not what GMS wants...it's his art not mine.....personally I don't like silk pajamas.....I only teach Internal so I do wear a sam....it's heavy cotton not silk and I wear my original uniform just as much....I like the way it feels......he went for the sams to show separation between External & Internal. In my opinion (for what that's worth:D) I don't give a fuk what uniform he wants me to wear....I only care about the art. If your not capable of marketing the art itself then wtf is a uniform or name going to do for you....we are not Chinese ( they don't even have uniforms) and our art came out of Indonesia not China. If your proud of your art why would you want to change the name or uniforms

[tattooedmonk]

It is when these changes get in the way of the sytem and training itself that it is a problem. For ex: you cant train here unless you wear this uniform, or you cant teach in this state because you cant or dont train with this instructor. If you do this form different in say Georgia than in Nevada you cant teach. How will i MAKE MONEY FROM YOUR SCHOOL IF YOU PAY HOMAGE TO LEXINGTON AND WANT TO TEACH IN SAY GEORGIA. THIS IS WHERE THE CHANGE AS IT IS CALLED IS NOT A GOOD THING. THERE ARE THOSE THAT HAVE TRAINED IN MANY AREAS AND WANT TO TRAIN BUT CANT OPEN A SCHOOL OR TRAIN WITH THE PEOPLE 1 -2 MILES FROM THEIR HOUSE DUE TO THE CR@@ or disagreements this splits the system itself. I cant train with a guy I have known for 10 years because an EM doesnt want me to . This has nothing to do with the Shaolin or MA ethic at all. More a lack of ethic Sorry for the caps. KCDont hold back KC, tell us how you really feel!!!:eek::D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

yes..............................:)Thanks......... .....:)

[Baqualin]

It is when these changes get in the way of the sytem and training itself that it is a problem. For ex: you cant train here unless you wear this uniform, or you cant teach in this state because you cant or dont train with this instructor. If you do this form different in say Georgia than in Nevada you cant teach. How will i MAKE MONEY FROM YOUR SCHOOL IF YOU PAY HOMAGE TO LEXINGTON AND WANT TO TEACH IN SAY GEORGIA. THIS IS WHERE THE CHANGE AS IT IS CALLED IS NOT A GOOD THING. THERE ARE THOSE THAT HAVE TRAINED IN MANY AREAS AND WANT TO TRAIN BUT CANT OPEN A SCHOOL OR TRAIN WITH THE PEOPLE 1 -2 MILES FROM THEIR HOUSE DUE TO THE CR@@ or disagreements this splits the system itself. I cant train with a guy I have known for 10 years because an EM doesnt want me to . This has nothing to do with the Shaolin or MA ethic at all. More a lack of ethic Sorry for the caps. KC

I know about your situation well KC and understand where your coming from.....the teaching Terr. was set up to protect teachers working an area and you happen to be in an area that's already been locked up for a while.....as far as the training part that's another story....I see where your coming from....but you also know the circumstances involved......also keep in mine that the doors of your school are open to any of GMS students from anywhere....also if you want to work out with someone keep it to yourself...your time is your time and no one has the right to tell you who to be friends with. Your also lucky.......knowing your teacher, you have the original way things have been taught for over 40 years and GMS has made no significant changes regardless of what people say.....he told me himself (I will not mention names) that he teaches certain people things and the next time he sees them they are not doing it the way he showed them.....now there are a few forms that have been taught slightly different at other schools and when I ask him I was told to listen to my teacher, because he has the most details.
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

If you've ever been a parent of multiple children........sometimes after they cry, complain, make excuses, throw fits....you finally say fuk it and let them have their way. This part has been all about marketing...not what GMS wants...it's his art not mine.....personally I don't like silk pajamas.....I only teach Internal so I do wear a sam....it's heavy cotton not silk and I wear my original uniform just as much....I like the way it feels......he went for the sams to show separation between External & Internal. In my opinion (for what that's worth:D) I don't give a fuk what uniform he wants me to wear....I only care about the art. If your not capable of marketing the art itself then wtf is a uniform or name going to do for you....we are not Chinese ( they don't even have uniforms) and our art came out of Indonesia not China. If your proud of your art why would you want to change the name or uniformsI dont agree but, I understand .

The uniforms (GI)and the name (DO) bring up a red flag to most and it doesnt just close the door but locks it for many, no matter what the content of the art is. Most people can not get past this, I do not care, I wear both one for internal and one for external.

What is wrong with changing the name and uniforms to make it more marketable as a Chinese Martial Art?

It is a Chinese Martial Art, no matter if it came directly from china or indonesia or wherever The Chinese have adopted sams to make distinction between what they do and other martial arts.

They used to be their regular clothes.:D

Master Ie changed it , what is wrong with it being changed again??

I see it as the evolution of the art.

I see where the Masters that I mentioned are doing it to get more people to practice the art and eliminate any further questions or doubts based on the name and the uniforms and other non intrinsic things.

I also see where by making these changes they are making it more about the art.:eek::D:cool:

[kwaichang]

If our art is different then our uniform should be different, I have a design for a uniform that combines the flavor of the Chinese / Shaolin and the durability of the Gi , I feel it should be adopted by all schools. As far as training, I want to be welcome anywhere not ousted due to petty ego or for the Love of money. One EM used to treat my child like his own now he treats me like an enemy this was after he offered once to let me run one of his schools. Talk about 2 faced, I wouldnt let anyone I know train with him if I had a say so in it. KC YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE111

[tattooedmonk]

If our art is different then our uniform should be different, I have a design for a uniform that combines the flavor of the Chinese / Shaolin and the durability of the Gi , I feel it should be adopted by all schools. As far as training, I want to be welcome anywhere not ousted due to petty ego or for the Love of money. One EM used to treat my child like his own now he treats me like an enemy this was after he offered once to let me run one of his schools. Talk about 2 faced, I wouldnt let anyone I know train with him if I had a say so in it. KC YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE111 I agree. :eek::D I have seen one that is made like a Chinese sam but is made of the same material as a Japanese GI. They are unique and it appears that some of the students in ST are using them.

All of the students under GMT should be able to go anywhere and study with different masters , west or east coast, without any problems or issues coming up.

Master Sin got in trouble once ( probably more than once) when a bunch of us from the CSC Northridge and CSC Phoenix were invited and went to UCSD for the GD broadsword and Praying Mantis WASTP seminar afew years back, All hell broke loose because DS and SS hadnt seen it before and were asked by one of the students about the form.

unbelieveable.!!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

If our art is different then our uniform should be different, I have a design for a uniform that combines the flavor of the Chinese / Shaolin and the durability of the Gi , I feel it should be adopted by all schools.

I have mixed feelings about uniforms.

1. Chinese uniforms like the ST branches currently use are far better for exercise, forms, tai chi, etc.

2. After training in BJJ, rolling live, and such, I'm convinced the gi is a far more practical from a sparring standpoint, especially from a throwing, etc. with resistance standpoint. The only downside is that you can sometimes become dependent on a grab or cloth hold that won't be there elsewhere. My Chinese uniform ripped a little up the side with mild contact from a grab. Oh well.


I can see why SD/ST schools have mixed feelings about it, too. But then, I understand both sides. I do think cosmetic appearances are the driving force behind the change. Most days I'm practicing in some skater shoes or Feiyue, some loose fit khakis, and a T-shirt--whatever I'm wearing at hte moment.

I don't practice in a uniform that much of the time (considering my daily practice schedule, while I'm not at the shcool every day).

Doesn't mean that much to me. It'd be really cool to see your design though.

Sounds like you've gotten a raw deal from some politics, KC. Man, that sucks.

[Baqualin]

I dont agree but, I understand .

That's because you've never had kids or should I say a Kinder Garden (just because of the amount of people he has to deal with).......that's only the surface of the problems anyway (don't ask cause you know I won't say anymore)

The uniforms (GI)and the name (DO) bring up a red flag to most and it doesnt just close the door but locks it for many, no matter what the content of the art is. Most people can not get past this, I do not care, I wear both one for internal and one for external.

Then they need to go to a school where they can look pretty........our school is doing pretty good right now and has for 40 years........nobody gives a **** about the uniform....of course there's always a handful who will be that way and pass through....but no matter what color pajamas you wear that's going to happen:)

What is wrong with changing the name and uniforms to make it more marketable as a Chinese Martial Art?

Then it's no longer the same art



It is a Chinese Martial Art, no matter if it came directly from china or indonesia

I think it's more than that...because it came from In do nesia

or wherever The Chinese have adopted sams to make distinction between what they do and other martial arts.

True...the difference between wushu & Traditional

They used to be their regular clothes.:D

Most true Traditional Chinese still don't wear uniforms

Master Ie changed it , what is wrong with it being changed again??

He was the Grand Master.

I see it as the evolution of the art.

How so.......because you change the cover

I see where the Masters that I mentioned are doing it to get more people to practice the art and eliminate any further questions or doubts based on the name and the uniforms and other non intrinsic things.

In case you haven't noticed, it's not working....the schools with name changes and or uniform changes are the ones getting the most flak....excluding the Mullins schools in Tenn. (who by the way was one of EML's top students)

I also see where by making these changes they are making it more about the art.:eek::D:cool:

No, just being like all the rest of the Americanized Chinese schools and all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you want to pass on GM Sins art then pass it on as he passed it to you and I see nothing wrong with bringing other arts such as BJJ , some other kind of ground art or anything....he!! even bowling and give your school a different name....Joe Goads Martial Arts Academy teaching Shaolin Do , BJJ, MT & Bowling.....but keep each as it's own........if want to do your own thing, then do your own thing...there's nothing wrong with that....look at David Ross he's done his own thing very well...he's taken bits and pieces of everything (tons of CMA techniques in it) and blended it into a very good fighting art...he gives credit where it's due and he doesn't teach under anybodies umbrella but his.

I'm sorry, it would bother me more to find out that I'm studying Shaolin Ryu, but it's really Shaolin Do:confused: (that's for you old & used) speaking of a red flag

This is only my opinion and how I see it....doesn't really matter here anyway....same people on here for years....we have an occasional newbie come through...but 99% of the students will never read this forum and could give a sh!t



By the way in 35 years I've never seen GM Sin in a sam:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

I know what you mean, the kindergarden analogy works:eek::D:cool:.

I dont give a rats @$$ about the uniforms either. The GI works . I did applications one night in Tai Chi class wearing the sam..... guys hand got stuck in the pocket, ripped it off havent worn it since , except in my solo practice.:D

How does the name changing from DO to TAO or using what is recognized as a Chinese uniform make the art different?? I see you contradicted yourself when you commented later in the post about changing the cover.:cool:

Do you think any uniform is neccesary???

I agree that the art is different than if it came straight from China . I like the Indonesian flavor.:p;):eek::cool:

The schools that changed are getting the most flak from inside the art, not from outside the art, from what I have seen.

I understand your views and respect them. I have never had any problem with you or any other SD/ ST / CSC people here and do not want any.

I just came here to talk a little and stir it up so we can have something to talk about.

Thats all .

Its good to know how people really feel, rather than a bunch of PC Bull Sh!T

I will always be loyal to Master Sin and the Art first and foremost.

And no matter what you might think or believe you know about me I like and respect all you guys and feel as if we are all brothers !!:cool:

Let me ask this in closing, is it or would it be worth changing the name( slightly) and the uniforms to insure that future generations can and will teach and practice the art??

[Baqualin]

I agree. :eek::D I have seen one that is made like a Chinese sam but is made of the same material as a Japanese GI. They are unique and it appears that some of the students in ST are using them.

All of the students under GMT should be able to go anywhere and study with different masters , west or east coast, without any problems or issues coming up.

All are welcome here and at any seminars.....but if your CSC or ST you probably wouldn't be either for long

Master Sin got in trouble once ( Has more than once) when a bunch of us from the CSC Northridge and CSC Phoenix were invited and went to UCSD for the GD broadsword and Praying Mantis WASTP seminar afew years back, All hell broke loose because DS and SS hadnt seen it before and were asked by one of the students about the form.

unbelieveable.!!!

BINGO............your baiting me on this one TT.....the only thing I will say is this is not coming from SD:p

Parting words...It's our policy now not to worry about what the other non SD schools are doing. .....I don't always personally agree with everything politically that goes on at this school and at the same time I don't give a sh!t about that stuff.....the pecking order here has been well established for years and I could care less.....all the classes are taught by EM & Masters only.....I feel very lucky to be here at this time....it's better than it's ever been.
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

BINGO............your baiting me on this one TT.....the only thing I will say is this is not coming from SD:p

Parting words...It's our policy now not to worry about what the other non SD schools are doing. .....I don't always personally agree with everything politically that goes on at this school and at the same time I don't give a sh!t about that stuff.....the pecking order here has been well established for years and I could care less.....all the classes are taught by EM & Masters only.....I feel very lucky to be here at this time....it's better than it's ever been.
BQI know its not.:D:cool:
Too bad that any of this stuff is an issue.:D:cool:

Like you said it is all ego and money driven, in most cases.

The order is what it is based on time, effort and loyalty etc.

You are lucky to have the school that you do and the opportunity to learn from many masters in the same school.

I wish the rest of us were that fortunate.:cool:

[Baqualin]

I know what you mean, the kindergarden analogy works:eek::D:cool:.

I dont give a rats @$$ about the uniforms either. The GI works . I did applications one night in Tai Chi class wearing the sam..... guys hand got stuck in the pocket, ripped it off havent worn it since , except in my solo practice.:D

How does the name changing from DO to TAO or using what is recognized as a Chinese uniform make the art different??

Because your calling it what it's not for your own benefit

I see you contradicted yourself when you commented later in the post about changing the cover.:cool:

You spoke of evolving the art through name and uniform change...that's a cover.....your taking a Indonesian flavored Chinese Martial art and trying to make it seem to be a pure PRC based martial.....that's caused us a lot of trouble.....GMS is the GM of Shaolin Do not the Shaolin temple in china.




Do you think any uniform is neccesary???

I really don't give a Fuk and as far as why we wear gi's.....did you ever wonder how easy in 1968 it was to get Sam's in Kentucky

I agree that the art is different than if it came straight from China . I like the Indonesian flavor

The schools that changed are getting the most flak from inside the art, not from outside the art, from what I have seen.

Inside the art is politics not flak:p

I understand your views and respect them. I have never had any problem with you or any other SD/ ST / CSC people here and do not want any.

I just came here to talk a little and stir it up so we can have something to talk about.

Thats all .

Its good to know how people really feel, rather than a bunch of PC Bull Sh!T

I will always be loyal to Master Sin and the Art first and foremost.

And no matter what you might think or believe you know about me I like and respect all you guys and feel as if we are all brothers !

Let me ask this in closing, is it or would it be worth changing the name( slightly) and the uniforms to insure that future generations can and will teach and practice the art??

We haven't changed anything and the schools doing great along with other SD schools in the area...lots of Masters in this part of the country...quite a few young ones....I plan on teaching till I die:D....one thing that is evolving in SD is the Internal program.....it's growing pretty good......on another note who knows what the next fad will be....martian wu maybe:)
BQ

Final note (I got to get to sleep)

Evolution of an art is in ones self not any one school .....a school with a teacher that has great skills and the ability to transmit that to students along with being a good people & business person will get plenty of students and be successful...no matter the uniform (or no uniform) the name or style
:D
BQ

[Baqualin]

Hey old & used...I was just poking fun at you....I liked John....worked with his wife for a little while....hell of a fighter...even went to some of his classes in the late 70's didn't like the changes he made.....took away the circles.....something you don't want to lose in CMA

[OldandUsed]

No worries, buddy. I took no offense. Thought it was kind of funny, actually.

Like a previous poster said, even though I may not be in SD with you guys any longer, SD has been a major influence on me and my life since 1970. I cannot see anything as a single art surpassing SD and I would not change or wish to turn my back on SD or anyone that is met while practicing SD. That goes for EML/John/etc. Went through way too much to just blank that out. I know a lot has been done and said, but the bottom line is I would still have any of you guys back in the street.

[Baqualin]

No worries, buddy. I took no offense. Thought it was kind of funny, actually.

Like a previous poster said, even though I may not be in SD with you guys any longer, SD has been a major influence on me and my life since 1970. I cannot see anything as a single art surpassing SD and I would not change or wish to turn my back on SD or anyone that is met while practicing SD. That goes for EML/John/etc. Went through way too much to just blank that out. I know a lot has been done and said, but the bottom line is I would still have any of you guys back in the street.

I can say the same.....a major influence on me and my life...I feel it has made me a better person.....GM Sin & EML have always been there for me anytime I've needed support....even with personal things outside of the school.......EML has really mellowed out down through the years and has really made the gym like a big family again.
Thanks for your kind words regarding SD....we really do care about our people....past and present.
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

Do any of you believe/ think SD is a hybrid art?

If so, what of the Indonesian elements do you think gives it the flavor it has??

If not ,why??

Do you believe that the art as it was developing was influenced by other asian arts??

If so or if not , what did or did nt influence it??

(not talking about the gi ,terminology or the belt ranking system.:p;):rolleyes::eek:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

By the way in 35 years I've never seen GM Sin in a sam:cool:

LOL.....not even in ATlanta. Always the gi.

But, considering that the art wasn't necessarily "Shaolin-Do" until he marketed it as such in the US, teh question is something along the lines of:

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

SD is more traditional from the SD/1940's-70's indonesian standpoint, and from GMSKT's POV, ST from the Chinese root. It's a decision to honor your teacher's POV, or to honor the truest root of the art (the higher master, if you want to call it that). No dishonor is done either way, IMO.

I don't think you can honor both equally from the SD standpoint, since SD was designed to "masquerade" as a Japanese art by hiding its roots. It's really pick and choose. If you honor the "masquerade" as a tradition, rather than a quick-fix, temporary thing, it's not the same as honoring the Shaolin/Chinese MA root. After all, most of what we do isn't Shaolin--it's just general Chinese stuff. Even our meditation is the same as Chan--I go to a Chan monastery(Dhama Jewel) here in ATL. Same meditation techs as Ho Tien Chi, just with more variation in breathing--Shen Tien Chi, etc. Even so, considering that the art was, in the closest approximation to reality, the byproduct of some Chinese immigrants working together like a Malaysian Chin Woo Assoc., blending this and that, it's difficult to really choose sides.

The way I see it, if you pick one or the other, you're still buying into a small part of teh big picture. The history needs a dose of practicality.

I don't have a bone to pick either way, but I can see why people pick and choose the traditions.

They don't appear to gel very well from a logical standpoint.

[tattooedmonk]

this is exactly on the line of what I was thinking, you beat me to the punch.:D:cool:

[Shaolin Wookie]

Do any of you believe/ think SD is a hybrid art?

Do you believe that the art as it was developing was influenced by other asian arts??

If so or if not , what did or did nt influence it??



No. and Yes.

If history has taught us anything, it's that no art, be it martial, visual, musical, performance, can ever escape cultural influences, especially in a third world melting pot like mid 20th C. Indonesia. Traditional CMA has been irreparably changed by the advent of contemporary wushu, since "looks" have become a standard criterion for skill. I rarely see an old, very traditional non-SD master do a form that I'd call "pretty" where he's stressing practicality. It has a different kind of beauty--that of simplicity, effectiveness, etc. Look at Brendan Lai, then look at some modern sevenstar teachers. There's a huge gulf between them. Lai was a badass; contemproary-traditional sevenstar teachers, they've got the look of the mantis, but no mantis striking/fighting ability. And you can see it in how they perform, and in how they talk about their techs.

Sure, the Indon. school was all CHinese, but the Japanese influence, even as a cover, did influence the art. GGM IE was well-traveled, so I'm positive he wasn't doing pure CMA by any means. CMA itself is a cultural melting pot, since teh coutnry wasn't 100% Chinese. Different tribes, languages, etc. Our 30 short forms are a blend of Shuai Jiao techs, Tan Tui, and Lohan. We can see it all in the postures and apps. Even as such, it's none of those arts.

GM The' was active in the 60's-70's Karate community. I'm sure that changed his perspective some, and I know it has to have changed some of his practices, even if we aren't aware yet, or won't acknowledge it.

We have basic brownbelt forms Lian Wu Zhang and Jie Quan (Chie Chien), which comprise the basic curriculums of established arts (Jie Quan, anyways). Our Jie Quan is not Chin Woo's, Chin Woo's isnt' the Ying Jow Pai form exactly. Ours is more in keeping with our short forms, but they have the same basic model or pattern (look at kick/sweep sequences, spinning smash kicks, circles, bows, etc.). The only dude I know of that taught Lian Wu Zhang was the Tiawanese master Su Ke Gang, and his form is just as circular. He pushes with one hand on his back sweeps (like we do in street fight tech #2), while we do more of the Shuai Jiao traingle backsweep I posted a few pages earlier. But teh same basic princples, even if the forms are different. We do a Tiawanese Yang Short Form (CMChing's); so a lot of our material is non-Chinese geographically, but Chinese MA based. It's teh Malaysian CMA, not mainland CMA. Not karatiefied to the point of Vovinam, or something. Just not completely mainland.

I kind of like that, since much of CMA is kind of foofy. But that's just my opinion. Doesn't mean much.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've seen SD forms white-black firsthand. They're not Shaolin-Tao's move-for-move.

We might as well say that SD has a significant American influence, as well.

Shoot, I've been studying capoeira, BJJ, some Okinawan Karate, and various CMA's. So what the hell is my SD? LOFL............

[brucereiter]

LOL.....not even in ATlanta. Always the gi.

http://picasaweb.google.com/brucereiter/SinThe#5356505192667370562

http://picasaweb.google.com/brucereiter/SinThe#5356505196402431810
http://picasaweb.google.com/brucereiter/SinThe#5356505196402431810

http://picasaweb.google.com/brucereiter/SinThe#5356505208838199490

here are a few pictures of sin the and bill leonard. note the cheng man ching type of clothing ... why was he wearing this instead of the gi?

[OldandUsed]

That is the robe GMS always wore when he taught Tai Chi. He wore it over his Gi. It was made of a fuzzy, felt like material.

[tattooedmonk]

I've seen SD forms white-black firsthand. They're not Shaolin-Tao's move-for-move.

We might as well say that SD has a significant American influence, as well.

Shoot, I've been studying capoeira, BJJ, some Okinawan Karate, and various CMA's. So what the hell is my SD? LOFL............ What do you see being the difference between the two??

The art you practice , like you said , is now your own. all the things that make you who you are is what makes it different than what everyone else does, no matter who your teacher is , west coast east coast or SD / CSC/ ST.

[tattooedmonk]

That is the robe GMS always wore when he taught Tai Chi. He wore it over his Gi. It was made of a fuzzy, felt like material.Must have been hot as he-l-l !!:D

[tattooedmonk]

No. and Yes.

If history has taught us anything, it's that no art, be it martial, visual, musical, performance, can ever escape cultural influences, especially in a third world melting pot like mid 20th C. Indonesia. Traditional CMA has been irreparably changed by the advent of contemporary wushu, since "looks" have become a standard criterion for skill. I rarely see an old, very traditional non-SD master do a form that I'd call "pretty" where he's stressing practicality. It has a different kind of beauty--that of simplicity, effectiveness, etc. Look at Brendan Lai, then look at some modern sevenstar teachers. There's a huge gulf between them. Lai was a badass; contemproary-traditional sevenstar teachers, they've got the look of the mantis, but no mantis striking/fighting ability. And you can see it in how they perform, and in how they talk about their techs.

Sure, the Indon. school was all CHinese, but the Japanese influence, even as a cover, did influence the art. GGM IE was well-traveled, so I'm positive he wasn't doing pure CMA by any means. CMA itself is a cultural melting pot, since teh coutnry wasn't 100% Chinese. Different tribes, languages, etc. Our 30 short forms are a blend of Shuai Jiao techs, Tan Tui, and Lohan. We can see it all in the postures and apps. Even as such, it's none of those arts.

GM The' was active in the 60's-70's Karate community. I'm sure that changed his perspective some, and I know it has to have changed some of his practices, even if we aren't aware yet, or won't acknowledge it.

We have basic brownbelt forms Lian Wu Zhang and Jie Quan (Chie Chien), which comprise the basic curriculums of established arts (Jie Quan, anyways). Our Jie Quan is not Chin Woo's, Chin Woo's isnt' the Ying Jow Pai form exactly. Ours is more in keeping with our short forms, but they have the same basic model or pattern (look at kick/sweep sequences, spinning smash kicks, circles, bows, etc.). The only dude I know of that taught Lian Wu Zhang was the Tiawanese master Su Ke Gang, and his form is just as circular. He pushes with one hand on his back sweeps (like we do in street fight tech #2), while we do more of the Shuai Jiao traingle backsweep I posted a few pages earlier. But teh same basic princples, even if the forms are different. We do a Tiawanese Yang Short Form (CMChing's); so a lot of our material is non-Chinese geographically, but Chinese MA based. It's teh Malaysian CMA, not mainland CMA. Not karatiefied to the point of Vovinam, or something. Just not completely mainland.

I kind of like that, since much of CMA is kind of foofy. But that's just my opinion. Doesn't mean much. Right on time with this breakdown. I agree with you for the most part.:p;):D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Bruce
I am suprised SMG would even let you have a copy of the Tai Chi 64 fighting applications???
OTD
.......Why??

[tattooedmonk]

http://picasaweb.google.com/brucereiter/SinThe#5356505192667370562

http://picasaweb.google.com/brucereiter/SinThe#5356505196402431810
http://picasaweb.google.com/brucereiter/SinThe#5356505196402431810

http://picasaweb.google.com/brucereiter/SinThe#5356505208838199490

here are a few pictures of sin the and bill leonard. note the cheng man ching type of clothing ... why was he wearing this instead of the gi?cool picks, Bruce!!:cool:

[Baqualin]

That is the robe GMS always wore when he taught Tai Chi. He wore it over his Gi. It was made of a fuzzy, felt like material.

The first time I saw him in the robe was in the early 70's......he demo'd Iron Man (Buell Armory) before he taught it to us........it was an experience I still remember.
BQ

[OldandUsed]

Man, you are going way back!

[Shaolin Wookie]

What do you see being the difference between the two??

.

SD has "striker-itis" in its applications, which thereby gives the form less flow. That's not a bad thing, necessarily. Nor is it a great thing. Many of the scissor-step motions are interpreted as knee traps----which all scissor steps can be interpreted as, on some level---at the cost of lateral movement flow and fluid footwork. Some of the short forms differ. Not many, but some. Also, some of the techniques are different. Dude did street tech #8 from a gi grab position. I shrugged, said "I can work with that", barely modified our #8, and did it just as well...LOL.

Some of the forms use slightly different stances...no big deal. Apps are mostly the same anyways, although I think ST has more emphasis on sweeps, throws, locks. Just MO based on what I've seen. Coupla' different strikes here and there. But they are mapped on the same footwork.

I don't think it's that big of a difference. The difference is, as I see it, ST seems to have integrated Shaolin/Tai CHi philosophies to maximize a sense of flow. SD keeps them more separate.

Granted, when people rush through the internal or external program in ST, it all turns to mush. I've been doing Yang Tai CHi for 4 years, and I'm still a green sash--and it's not because I suck...LOL. I know that much. I'm a first degree black belt after 5 years, and I practice every day. Tai Chi 64 every day, now chen 18 & Pakua every day (for the past 8-10 months). They're too complicated and nuanced to move on to something new without it turningto mush, you know? If you want to get good at the art, you have to slow your roll. You have to know the difference in striking/stragegy/flow/characteristics between Shaolin bird and Lian Wu Zhang. Or between Chin Gung Fu Hu Chien and Chie Chien. That takes time, and I'm glad I've taken it.

What's funny is that new students see me in their internal class, wearing my 1st degree, doing pretty good tai chi, and they assume I'm there to help teach. Sometimes Brown sashes ask me for tips when they've been studing 1/5 the amount of time I've been studying, and I chuckle and say---dude, you outrank me. Shouldn't I be the one asking you for tips? The answer is no, of course I shouldn't.

Sometimes it's annoying to have someone you know doesn't practice that much taht moves up each time rank advancement is available try to give me tips on stuff I "KNOW" rather than just "REMEMBER." But I'm trying to get over my ego. That's my test. I'm getting better at it, but I've still got quite an ego at times. I can see, though, on a larger scale, why some people might have issues with other students (say, on teh political scale) based on that same tension.......but if we're willing to get over ourselves, it's not that big of a deal. But if franchising, etc. is put into the mix, on a financial scale, I can see why there's divides.

So I'll test for black sash sometime around 2012, LOL. Yin Yang Dagger is coming around for the third time for me this year. Who knows, maybe I'll actually enjoy that wretched form this time :D

[Judge Pen]

SW, I think many teachers have "striker-itis" but I don't think its the art, just how most teach it. I belive most of the techniques that are taught can bei either a strike or a lock depending on the need. but you are right, most of the time it seems only the strikes are shown.

[MasterKiller]

What's funny is that new students see me in their internal class, wearing my 1st degree, doing pretty good tai chi, and they assume I'm there to help teach. Sometimes Brown sashes ask me for tips when they've been studing 1/5 the amount of time I've been studying, and I chuckle and say---dude, you outrank me. Shouldn't I be the one asking you for tips? The answer is no, of course I shouldn't.

So I'll test for black sash sometime around 2012, LOL. Yin Yang Dagger is coming around for the third time for me this year. Who knows, maybe I'll actually enjoy that wretched form this time :D You are ranked differently for external and internal classes?

[Shaolin Wookie]

SW, I think many teachers have "striker-itis" but I don't think its the art, just how most teach it. I belive most of the techniques that are taught can bei either a strike or a lock depending on the need. but you are right, most of the time it seems only the strikes are shown.

My opinion exactly. It's not the art. It's the intent. There's always potential for either one, but sometimes the mechanics change a little based on that. And that's what I've seen as the biggest difference and point of departure. It's a matter of one's viewpoint.

I hate making blanket statements about either side, by any means. But those were my blanket statements, LOL. I have no doubt that there are great throwing, sweeping, etc. dudes in SD--we learned it all from them anyways, I just don't see the emphasis as much in the forms I've seen. And I realize I haven't seen much. Of course I'm partial, and this statement makes 0 sense because of that, because I do what I do, but I prefer ST over SD's forms. LOL. Go figure.

It depends on teh individual always, and sometimes on the teacher. My teacher gives workshop classes on takedowns, sweeping, innovative groundfighting, etc. every couple of months. I remember taking a "takedowns" seminar when I was a blue belt. I took very detailed notes, drew diagrams...everything. But I couldn't do any of them because I wasn't good enough. Then, of course, my street techs were horrible too. I couldn't do the takedowns proficiently as a brown belt, either, two years later. But with hte right mindframe practicing forms, my coordination has gotten me to the point where I see potential for them all the time, especially when sparring now--4 years later LOL. IT's funny how that stuff creeps up on you over time. I was expalining front sweeps last week, and found myself doing the drills for finding points of balance and leverage I learned as a blue belt. I thought..."Where did I learn this? Did I just make this up? **** I'm good." Someone asked me that soon enough, and I couldn't remember at first. But then I was like--"oh, MR tought me that a long time ago, back when I really sucked.":o

[Shaolin Wookie]

You are ranked differently for external and internal classes?

2 separate programs. You can enter into the internal and do tai chi, pakua, hsing-I by themselves. You can do all teh external arts by themselves, too. Or, you can do both.

There are some phenomenal MA's in ATL who focus solely on the internal arts. Some who focus only on the external. But there are a couple of crossover points where external guys have to learn tai chi and pakua. But at higher ranks.

Yes, I do have 2 ranks. But one is nullified by my 1st degree. I'm always a 1st degree, and I am required to wear my highest rank. But by advancement in the program, I'm still a green sash.

[brucereiter]

Some of the forms use slightly different stances...no big deal. Apps are mostly the same anyways, although I think ST has more emphasis on sweeps, throws, locks. Just MO based on what I've seen. Coupla' different strikes here and there. But they are mapped on the same footwork.

I don't think it's that big of a difference. The difference is, as I see it, ST seems to have integrated Shaolin/Tai CHi philosophies to maximize a sense of flow. SD keeps them more separate.


when i have learned from master mike i think sweeps throws and locks were focused on more, with sr master gary striking and redirection were more focused on



Granted, when people rush through the internal or external program in ST, it all turns to mush. I've been doing Yang Tai CHi for 4 years, and I'm still a green sash--and it's not because I suck...LOL. I know that much. I'm a first degree black belt after 5 years, and I practice every day. Tai Chi 64 every day, now chen 18 & Pakua every day (for the past 8-10 months). They're too complicated and nuanced to move on to something new without it turningto mush, you know? If you want to get good at the art, you have to slow your roll. You have to know the difference in striking/stragegy/flow/characteristics between Shaolin bird and Lian Wu Zhang. Or between Chin Gung Fu Hu Chien and Chie Chien. That takes time, and I'm glad I've taken it. right on ... sounds like you are coming along.




What's funny is that new students see me in their internal class, wearing my 1st degree, doing pretty good tai chi, and they assume I'm there to help teach. Sometimes Brown sashes ask me for tips when they've been studing 1/5 the amount of time I've been studying, and I chuckle and say---dude, you outrank me. Shouldn't I be the one asking you for tips? The answer is no, of course I shouldn't.

my entire time at the csc was focused on level 1 material mainly yang tai chi chuan.
i always went to level 1 class eventually i began to teach it but i was still there ... i think that is very important assuming you are interested in really learning



Sometimes it's annoying to have someone you know doesn't practice that much taht moves up each time rank advancement is available try to give me tips on stuff I "KNOW" rather than just "REMEMBER." But I'm trying to get over my ego. That's my test. I'm getting better at it, but I've still got quite an ego at times. I can see, though, on a larger scale, why some people might have issues with other students (say, on teh political scale) based on that same tension.......but if we're willing to get over ourselves, it's not that big of a deal. But if franchising, etc. is put into the mix, on a financial scale, I can see why there's divides. pride and ego are a mutha f**cka ... let go of them.

[kwaichang]

When I started there was no internal / external seperation you simply kept learning, I have enough material in the internal class to be 4th Black sash as I understand it but who cares just train and get better. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I say, just practice ball kicks. 24/7. Eat, sleep, and breathe ball kicks.


Warning: Do not eat, sleep, and breathe balls. Make sure they're ball kicks. That's very important.

[Facepalm]

Listen to this Everyone:eek::eek::eek:

Master David said he just spoke with Grandmaster Sin Kwang The

and he tells him that he now has funding for his movie

NJ

Have we heard this before:rolleyes:

or do you think its for real:D

I dotn know what do you guys think?

[Baqualin]

My opinion exactly. It's not the art. It's the intent. There's always potential for either one, but sometimes the mechanics change a little based on that. And that's what I've seen as the biggest difference and point of departure. It's a matter of one's viewpoint.

I hate making blanket statements about either side, by any means. But those were my blanket statements, LOL. I have no doubt that there are great throwing, sweeping, etc. dudes in SD--we learned it all from them anyways, I just don't see the emphasis as much in the forms I've seen. And I realize I haven't seen much. Of course I'm partial, and this statement makes 0 sense because of that, because I do what I do, but I prefer ST over SD's forms. LOL. Go figure.

Great observations...above and below.......as you state, It mainly depends on the individual & teacher.....some are strikers (a lot) and some are into the locks, breaks and take downs (the forms are full of breaks, locks and take downs....as you have learned)......pretty much always been in the program......then as people move on to teach they will of course stress what they have worked on the most....that's why it's good to visit other schools.....I was privy once while looking at video tapes with GMS a few years ago he accidently put one in of 2 upper levels (won't name) drilling take downs.....it was very fast and powerful....I was like fuk I'm not ready for that :eek:

It depends on teh individual always, and sometimes on the teacher. My teacher gives workshop classes on takedowns, sweeping, innovative groundfighting, etc. every couple of months. I remember taking a "takedowns" seminar when I was a blue belt. I took very detailed notes, drew diagrams...everything. But I couldn't do any of them because I wasn't good enough. Then, of course, my street techs were horrible too. I couldn't do the takedowns proficiently as a brown belt, either, two years later. But with hte right mindframe practicing forms, my coordination has gotten me to the point where I see potential for them all the time, especially when sparring now--4 years later LOL. IT's funny how that stuff creeps up on you over time. I was expalining front sweeps last week, and found myself doing the drills for finding points of balance and leverage I learned as a blue belt. I thought..."Where did I learn this? Did I just make this up? **** I'm good." Someone asked me that soon enough, and I couldn't remember at first. But then I was like--"oh, MR tought me that a long time ago, back when I really sucked.":o

You seemed to have come a long way....even in your post.....It;s always great to see someone so serious about the art.:cool:

[Baqualin]

SD has "striker-itis" in its applications, which thereby gives the form less flow. That's not a bad thing, necessarily. Nor is it a great thing. Many of the scissor-step motions are interpreted as knee traps----which all scissor steps can be interpreted as, on some level---at the cost of lateral movement flow and fluid footwork. Some of the short forms differ. Not many, but some. Also, some of the techniques are different. Dude did street tech #8 from a gi grab position. I shrugged, said "I can work with that", barely modified our #8, and did it just as well...LOL.

Some of the forms use slightly different stances...no big deal. Apps are mostly the same anyways, although I think ST has more emphasis on sweeps, throws, locks. Just MO based on what I've seen. Coupla' different strikes here and there. But they are mapped on the same footwork.

I don't think it's that big of a difference. The difference is, as I see it, ST seems to have integrated Shaolin/Tai CHi philosophies to maximize a sense of flow. SD keeps them more separate.

True....power has always been emphasized on the external side....still should really flow....most just can't make it happen (2 hr. a week warriors).......as you move into the upper levels that changes as more internal gets introduced to them.

Granted, when people rush through the internal or external program in ST, it all turns to mush. I've been doing Yang Tai CHi for 4 years, and I'm still a green sash--and it's not because I suck...LOL. I know that much. I'm a first degree black belt after 5 years, and I practice every day.

Hey I was a 1st brown for 25 years....didn't care....all I wanted to do was Pa kua & Tai Chi (both are a life time study).....thank God for the internal program....got my black sash before I got my BB

Tai Chi 64 every day, now chen 18 & Pakua every day (for the past 8-10 months). They're too complicated and nuanced to move on to something new without it turningto mush, you know? If you want to get good at the art, you have to slow your roll. You have to know the difference in striking/stragegy/flow/characteristics between Shaolin bird and Lian Wu Zhang. Or between Chin Gung Fu Hu Chien and Chie Chien. That takes time, and I'm glad I've taken it.

What's funny is that new students see me in their internal class, wearing my 1st degree, doing pretty good tai chi, and they assume I'm there to help teach. Sometimes Brown sashes ask me for tips when they've been studing 1/5 the amount of time I've been studying, and I chuckle and say---dude, you outrank me. Shouldn't I be the one asking you for tips? The answer is no, of course I shouldn't.

Sometimes it's annoying to have someone you know doesn't practice that much taht moves up each time rank advancement is available try to give me tips on stuff I "KNOW" rather than just "REMEMBER." But I'm trying to get over my ego. That's my test. I'm getting better at it, but I've still got quite an ego at times. I can see, though, on a larger scale, why some people might have issues with other students (say, on teh political scale) based on that same tension.......but if we're willing to get over ourselves, it's not that big of a deal. But if franchising, etc. is put into the mix, on a financial scale, I can see why there's divides.

So I'll test for black sash sometime around 2012, LOL. Yin Yang Dagger is coming around for the third time for me this year. Who knows, maybe I'll actually enjoy that wretched form this time

Glad to see your finally liking Tai Chi........Y&Y Dagger is an awesome form...look at it closer this time....some really cool **** in there....those two are forms I hope to master someday....when you get to Hsing I you will love shattering hands......you will think your learning MMA techniques (instead of bars and chokes it's locks and breaks)


:D

Keep Standing,
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

Listen to this Everyone:eek::eek::eek:

Master David said he just spoke with Grandmaster Sin Kwang The

and he tells him that he now has funding for his movie

NJ

Have we heard this before:rolleyes:

or do you think its for real:D

I dont know, what do you guys think? If so, great!!!

I heard that he is getting it from outside the country.

The only problem is now they cant call it The Grandmaster or Redbelt:p:D:eek::cool:

[tattooedmonk]

I say, just practice ball kicks. 24/7. Eat, sleep, and breathe ball kicks.


Warning: Do not eat, sleep, and breathe balls. Make sure they're ball kicks. That's very important.LMAO... Yeah you definately dont want to eat sleep or breathe balls ... unless your into MMA north /south!!!:p:eek::D:cool:

[Shaolin Wookie]

Listen to this Everyone:eek::eek::eek:

Master David said he just spoke with Grandmaster Sin Kwang The

and he tells him that he now has funding for his movie


I dotn know what do you guys think?

I think that if Grandmaster The' doesn't get this guy for his movie, he's a galdang fool. That's what I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccF50ssJKVA

Just think of it. After he kicks the horse into the river, he could kick this guy in half. Then, after the guy goes to the hospital, and the doctors tell him he'll never walk again, GM The' could teach him 3rd black tiger's cartwheel kicks. That guy was made for groundwork. Then they could take on this guy (the one with the knife):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC2jV8sCv1c

He could finish him like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBPduMCUMFU&feature=related


Seriously though, I just don't see how a movie based on SD could possibly be that interesting. Unless, of course, they get Tony Jaa to play GM Ie, and maybe get Dreamworks to scheme up a digital su kong.

I wish him the best. They ought to aim for something subtle, like Redbelt. Great flick.

I've always wondered what the script would look like.

[Judge Pen]

He could finish him like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBPduMCUMFU&feature=related


That's right from Yank the Heart. Wasn't that Sonny Chiba? Awesome.

[kwaichang]

When I was in Japanese Kara-te one could be in an organization such as the JKA or the AJKDF or something like that. Do any of you know of an umbrella organization that will certify instructors for the promotion of students within their organization. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I suppose this is more of a question for "purist" CMA, but if you were to do, say, traditional Chang Quan, and some of the moves were out of order, but you still do all the moves of the form, is your Chang Quan wrong? A wushu judge would say yes, a fighter would just say.....who cares?

I've been rebuilding the Longfist (which is 90% modern wushu interpretation) stuff I let slide, and rehabbing the Tan Tui I learned....just wondering. I learned many straight arm moves--so it was pretty contemporary stuff. Fun, challenging, and not worthless. I enjoy it. You could do any of the moves in different orders. The applications are simple, you know where the divides and markers are in the form---so I could do it bass ackwards and still learn the same thing. I was just thinking this today.

SD forms have all of the components of other "common" or "standard" wushu forms, but often out of order in some parts. Our White Monkey STP, Cha Chui--the sevenstar stuff--same basic pattern of the more "standard" forms (if there is such a thing)--4 lines, 3rd line w/ the roundhouse retreat and jumping maneuvers...the first line is pretty much move for move with most versions. I say it's the same form (although, I've seen different versions of the form between Sevenstar schools) no matter the pattern. It's almost always the same techs: waist chopping, mantis fanning techs, same footwork, the palm on forearm stepping tech/block/strike thingy....forget the name, same punching philosophy, same delivery system, same everything---and Brendan Lai, whose form is not quite visually pretty, yet technically beautiful, which I respect more than any others I've seen, isn't like most other forms.

I don't think there's a wrong so long as there's intent. I think the criterion for "standard" or "correctness" are influenced more by BS "point scoring" cards of judges than MA's....LOL. That's obvious, but not often acknowledged. I remember I was doing Tai CHi 37/64 w/ W. C.C. Chen's dudes, and I accidently did "hang the lotus" out of habit rather than "sweep the lotus" and they said: "No, you're doing the kick wrong." Granted I was, because I was supposed to be working on their form, but I was doing a technically proficient kick that took more control, coordination, and strength. I was at another Shaolin (non SD) school one morning and the teacher said--"don't roll out your open hand before you chamber and punch. It's incorrect. You're broadcasting your intent. That doesn't work in combat." But that's a hallmark of Sevenstar mantis--the famous mantis grab pull-and-punch....LOL. Since I've been drilling Cha Chui techs a lot, that habit has entered my chambering. I just assented and did what he asked.

LOL....there's no "right" in CMA, even when you're doing "standard" non-SD CMA in a CMA school. Maybe that's why I think the SD/CMA argument is so hilarious. CMA, sD and non-SD, seems to be a refuge for geeks who like to preach, spew out hot air, and feign humility with routine bombast, and front like there's one philosophy to fighting. Not all teachers, students, etc. But many. It's like the last bastion for people with inferiority complexes.:D If I get one more lecture from someone how my fighting ready stance is ineffective, when it's really the SD sparring stance (diff. arm/hand position, though), which is the MMA ready stance, which is the Muay Thai ready stance, whcih is the Sanshou ready stance, and provides you the opportunity to actually utilize your many animal techs etc. b/c you can transition through the movments from a superior offensive/defensive position, and then have a wrist grab maneuver explained one more time from someone telling me my such-and-such isn't up to speed, I think I'll puke. It's always up to speed, but maybe from the viepoint of another MA I picked up elswhere, or that I've refined...LOL.

Think of SD forms, diff. between mainland CMA forms, US CMA forms, and even between S-Tao forms. Could be faulty memory, etc, in transmission. Could be just different interpretation. Could be made up by a dude that could punch and kick your lights out. Could be the skill of the teachers on either side (pro or con), could be different forms due to geographical/cultural influences. Could be the teachers thought the forms were too wussy and decided to make them more technical.

Look at this dude's pirouettes, then think of our frontsweep, 180 deg. backsweep combo in Lian Wu Zhang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

I'm thinking the Indonesian school cut out many of the "dancing" maneuvers that are hallmarks of CMA wushu to stress sweeps, etc. I always thought that. I don't think one way is better than another. But I certainly think SD, GM The', the Indonesian school did. The theory behind our "flourishes" in Chie Chien, Short form 18, etc.---they're teaching a very important concept of sweeping with leverage--keeping the face away from the hands, keeping a stright line between the arm and the head, etc---throws of the center of balance.

With the exception of the flourishes, basic concept, basic techniques, footwork--all the meat of those Lian Wu Zhang forms is same.

:21 seconds in--think of the beginning of second and third lines in our form, the front snap kick to front sweep, then back sweep combination w/ quick steps. Here, more of a skipping to 360 jump.

If you still had all the techniques, all the strikes, sweeps, throws, is it wrong or is it right? Which one is wrong, and which right, from a technique, application, fighting, form standpoint? It's really a moot point, right?

LOL...story of the thread here. It comes down to whcih form is in the most recognizable order on a larger scale. But that has nothing to do with technique, application, etc., so long as they're in the same basic chunks.

Just thinking about hte theory of MA. From a practical application standpoint, we all ought to be doing MMA. They train MA the best, in my direct experience. BBJ's rules/art allows for full contact without risking as much injury, so it's a superior art since you get full resistance (that's why I like Chin-na sparring).

I'm of the opinion if you're doing Karate, SD, Shaolin, Aikido, Jujitsu, TKD, MMA--as long as you're practicing the basic components of fighting with practical intent, it will always be somewhat uglier than what CMA puts out as its clarion call for "Chinese-ness." LOL...just look at a JKD dude fighting, or a sanshou fighter, and then look at a wushu, contemp. or traditional, forms dude, an SD dude--and you'll see the diff. Fighting looks like fighting.

[kwaichang]

true very true KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

When I was in Japanese Kara-te one could be in an organization such as the JKA or the AJKDF or something like that. Do any of you know of an umbrella organization that will certify instructors for the promotion of students within their organization. KC

They're style specific, aren't they? CMA is too variegated to have an umbrella organization, and I don't think Japanese Kara-te or Kempo would offer you the same, since you're not doing their forms.

I've taken lessons from CMA guys much younger than I who certified their students. I think that's why CMA is so suspicious of fraudulent claims--there's no governing body, since the transmission of forms isn't as "traditional" as the Japanese styles. They don't have as much loyalty to their masters as much as the forms and traditions--at least, schools like Okinawan kara-te anyways.

[Baqualin]

I suppose this is more of a question for "purist" CMA, but if you were to do, say, traditional Chang Quan, and some of the moves were out of order, but you still do all the moves of the form, is your Chang Quan wrong? A wushu judge would say yes, a fighter would just say.....who cares?

I've been rebuilding the Longfist (which is 90% modern wushu interpretation) stuff I let slide, and rehabbing the Tan Tui I learned....just wondering. I learned many straight arm moves--so it was pretty contemporary stuff. Fun, challenging, and not worthless. I enjoy it. You could do any of the moves in different orders. The applications are simple, you know where the divides and markers are in the form---so I could do it bass ackwards and still learn the same thing. I was just thinking this today.

SD forms have all of the components of other "common" or "standard" wushu forms, but often out of order in some parts. Our White Monkey STP, Cha Chui--the sevenstar stuff--same basic pattern of the more "standard" forms (if there is such a thing)--4 lines, 3rd line w/ the roundhouse retreat and jumping maneuvers...the first line is pretty much move for move with most versions. I say it's the same form (although, I've seen different versions of the form between Sevenstar schools) no matter the pattern. It's almost always the same techs: waist chopping, mantis fanning techs, same footwork, the palm on forearm stepping tech/block/strike thingy....forget the name, same punching philosophy, same delivery system, same everything---and Brendan Lai, whose form is not quite visually pretty, yet technically beautiful, which I respect more than any others I've seen, isn't like most other forms.

I don't think there's a wrong so long as there's intent. I think the criterion for "standard" or "correctness" are influenced more by BS "point scoring" cards of judges than MA's....LOL. That's obvious, but not often acknowledged. I remember I was doing Tai CHi 37/64 w/ W. C.C. Chen's dudes, and I accidently did "hang the lotus" out of habit rather than "sweep the lotus" and they said: "No, you're doing the kick wrong." Granted I was, because I was supposed to be working on their form, but I was doing a technically proficient kick that took more control, coordination, and strength. I was at another Shaolin (non SD) school one morning and the teacher said--"don't roll out your open hand before you chamber and punch. It's incorrect. You're broadcasting your intent. That doesn't work in combat." But that's a hallmark of Sevenstar mantis--the famous mantis grab pull-and-punch....LOL. Since I've been drilling Cha Chui techs a lot, that habit has entered my chambering. I just assented and did what he asked.

LOL....there's no "right" in CMA, even when you're doing "standard" non-SD CMA in a CMA school. Maybe that's why I think the SD/CMA argument is so hilarious. CMA, sD and non-SD, seems to be a refuge for geeks who like to preach, spew out hot air, and feign humility with routine bombast, and front like there's one philosophy to fighting. Not all teachers, students, etc. But many. It's like the last bastion for people with inferiority complexes.:D If I get one more lecture from someone how my fighting ready stance is ineffective, when it's really the SD sparring stance (diff. arm/hand position, though), which is the MMA ready stance, which is the Muay Thai ready stance, whcih is the Sanshou ready stance, and provides you the opportunity to actually utilize your many animal techs etc. b/c you can transition through the movments from a superior offensive/defensive position, and then have a wrist grab maneuver explained one more time from someone telling me my such-and-such isn't up to speed, I think I'll puke. It's always up to speed, but maybe from the viepoint of another MA I picked up elswhere, or that I've refined...LOL.

Think of SD forms, diff. between mainland CMA forms, US CMA forms, and even between S-Tao forms. Could be faulty memory, etc, in transmission. Could be just different interpretation. Could be made up by a dude that could punch and kick your lights out. Could be the skill of the teachers on either side (pro or con), could be different forms due to geographical/cultural influences. Could be the teachers thought the forms were too wussy and decided to make them more technical.

Look at this dude's pirouettes, then think of our frontsweep, 180 deg. backsweep combo in Lian Wu Zhang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

I'm thinking the Indonesian school cut out many of the "dancing" maneuvers that are hallmarks of CMA wushu to stress sweeps, etc. I always thought that. I don't think one way is better than another. But I certainly think SD, GM The', the Indonesian school did. The theory behind our "flourishes" in Chie Chien, Short form 18, etc.---they're teaching a very important concept of sweeping with leverage--keeping the face away from the hands, keeping a stright line between the arm and the head, etc---throws of the center of balance.

With the exception of the flourishes, basic concept, basic techniques, footwork--all the meat of those Lian Wu Zhang forms is same.

:21 seconds in--think of the beginning of second and third lines in our form, the front snap kick to front sweep, then back sweep combination w/ quick steps. Here, more of a skipping to 360 jump.

If you still had all the techniques, all the strikes, sweeps, throws, is it wrong or is it right? Which one is wrong, and which right, from a technique, application, fighting, form standpoint? It's really a moot point, right?

LOL...story of the thread here. It comes down to whcih form is in the most recognizable order on a larger scale. But that has nothing to do with technique, application, etc., so long as they're in the same basic chunks.

Just thinking about hte theory of MA. From a practical application standpoint, we all ought to be doing MMA. They train MA the best, in my direct experience. BBJ's rules/art allows for full contact without risking as much injury, so it's a superior art since you get full resistance (that's why I like Chin-na sparring).

I'm of the opinion if you're doing Karate, SD, Shaolin, Aikido, Jujitsu, TKD, MMA--as long as you're practicing the basic components of fighting with practical intent, it will always be somewhat uglier than what CMA puts out as its clarion call for "Chinese-ness." LOL...just look at a JKD dude fighting, or a sanshou fighter, and then look at a wushu, contemp. or traditional, forms dude, an SD dude--and you'll see the diff. Fighting looks like fighting.

Nice!!!
BQ

[goju]

oh my god they are makinga movie out of sd lol
well thats going strait to dvd lmao


dosnt suprise me about master david he would waste a big portion of his time bad mouthing the masters in kung fu magazine while we were suposed to practice

[Shaolin Wookie]

oh my god they are makinga movie out of sd lol
well thats going strait to dvd lmao


dosnt suprise me about master david he would waste a big portion of his time bad mouthing the masters in kung fu magazine while we were suposed to practice

Dude, that's weird/ironic, since GM The' was featured in the mag once or twice.

[Facepalm]

oh my god they are makinga movie out of sd lol
well thats going strait to dvd lmao


dosnt suprise me about master david he would waste a big portion of his time bad mouthing the masters in kung fu magazine while we were suposed to practice


Yea Im sure it wont be a box office smash but it will be fun to see.

But really, Master David does tend to drone on about stuff from time to time but Ive never heard him bad mouthing anyone. Sometimes hell say something like "judo only has throws" or "such and such art is not as diverse as SD" but thats not necessarily bad mouthing them hes just selling the stuff he teaches.

Maybe years ago he would "bad mouth" people but he definitely doesn't do it anymore.

[tattooedmonk]

Yea Im sure it wont be a box office smash but it will be fun to see.

But really, Master David does tend to drone on about stuff from time to time but Ive never heard him bad mouthing anyone. Sometimes hell say something like "judo only has throws" or "such and such art is not as diverse as SD" but thats not necessarily bad mouthing them hes just selling the stuff he teaches.

Maybe years ago he would "bad mouth" people but he definitely doesn't do it anymore.I knew him for over 15 years and I have never heard him bad mouth another art or another martial artist. He just likes promoting his art and himself. He likes to talk for sure, learn what you can.

[goju]

im seriously telling the truth while i was at sd he would even cut into class time banging on about how much some of the masters in kung fu tai chi sucked i remember him particularly going on about how much of a fraud that one master was who came up with his cardio tai chi :)
he woudl also go on about his favorite movies lol apparently he didnt like "the one"thoigh i am fond of that particular jet li movie :)

[Baqualin]

im seriously telling the truth while i was at sd he would even cut into class time banging on about how much some of the masters in kung fu tai chi sucked i remember him particularly going on about how much of a fraud that one master was who came up with his cardio tai chi :)
he woudl also go on about his favorite movies lol apparently he didnt like "the one"thoigh i am fond of that particular jet li movie :)

The One is an awesome movie!!
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

im seriously telling the truth while i was at sd he would even cut into class time banging on about how much some of the masters in kung fu tai chi sucked i remember him particularly going on about how much of a fraud that one master was who came up with his cardio tai chi :)
he woudl also go on about his favorite movies lol apparently he didnt like "the one"thoigh i am fond of that particular jet li movie :)

Then your taste sucks. BTW...some of the masters in Kung Fu/Tai CHi aren't the hot **** they think they are. LOL. SHOCKER!!!:D

I can't imagine someone breaking into class time to talk about a crappy magazine nobody in the class likely read. Who reads kung fu/Tai CHi anyways?



Er....I mean, a great magazine. And everyone reads it. :p

[goju]

i know thats the biggest reason why i left sd he would cut into class time talking about crap i remember one of those extra seminars they have here and there on sd forms well i signed up for one and payed for it and over and hour was wasted on david talking about him and his wifes trip to russia lol

i know kungfu tai chi sucks i hate that short mexican who runs it whats his name gene ching lol

[Old Noob]

on how long until he's banned?

[OldandUsed]

Should be quick. I have to admit, even the other stuff pales in comparison to this.

[Old Noob]

....... Yep.......

[Lucas]

depends on if any mods actually look in this monster of a thread.

[Facepalm]

Do you think they would ban people just for bad mouthing them?

Well maybe the one comment went a little too far

[Lucas]

gene is hella cool, he doesnt deserve to be trash talked. the way i see it, if someone doesnt like the mag and wants to trash talk the person who keeps this sh!t together so he can even post, a ban is only fair.

hell if he doesnt like it, he can just ban himself. ie: leave

[Shaolin Wookie]

Anyone know anything about Yin-Yang Dagger being a part of the White Eyebrow system? It's listed as so on the Austin website. Just curious.


http://www.austinkungfu.com/about_adult_forms.asp

[kwaichang]

My understanding is it has its origins in Taoist thought and Hsing Ie as the Yang side corresponds with the 5 roads and elements etc of Hsing Ie And the Yin side with Pa Kua KC

[Baqualin]

Anyone know anything about Yin-Yang Dagger being a part of the White Eyebrow system? It's listed as so on the Austin website. Just curious.


http://www.austinkungfu.com/about_adult_forms.asp

The legend is....was developed by White eyebrow old man to help defeat the Shaolin Monks. The Yin form (hidden dagger) is based on a combination of Tai Chi & Baqua.....dagger is constantly hidden through out the form...blade flat against the fore arm. Yang form is all Hsing I based....dagger not hidden.
Yin form is very fluid and flows...Yang form is pure Hsing I very linear and powerful.

both are very nasty...one of my fav.'s....enough to keep you busy for years
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

The legend is....was developed by White eyebrow old man to help defeat the Shaolin Monks. The Yin form (hidden dagger) is based on a combination of Tai Chi & Baqua.....dagger is constantly hidden through out the form...blade flat against the fore arm. Yang form is all Hsing I based....dagger not hidden.
Yin form is very fluid and flows...Yang form is pure Hsing I very linear and powerful.

both are very nasty...one of my fav.'s....enough to keep you busy for years
BQ

Never heard that. Thanks.

[tattooedmonk]

The legend is....was developed by White eyebrow old man to help defeat the Shaolin Monks. The Yin form (hidden dagger) is based on a combination of Tai Chi & Baqua.....dagger is constantly hidden through out the form...blade flat against the fore arm. Yang form is all Hsing I based....dagger not hidden.
Yin form is very fluid and flows...Yang form is pure Hsing I very linear and powerful.

both are very nasty...one of my fav.'s....enough to keep you busy for years
BQ
I thought that it was developed by White Eyebrow Monk's disciples, whom he betrayed, to combat against the White Eyebrow Monk......??

[MasterKiller]

Everytime OTD posts I giggle because it sounds close to ODB from Wu-Tang Clan.:p

And yeah, Goju got a 10-day warning for his latest antics.

[MasterKiller]

MK
BTW are you still training to look good ????
OTD When you look this good, you don't have to train. Nature knows what she is doing...;)

[kwaichang]

To black ball Goju for his statement is wrong he did not insult anyone on purpose it was just his warped sense of humor, and I dont really care for his attitude but freedom of speech is an important thing so are bad jokes KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Anyone have Yin-Yang Mantis? The two-man set?

This goes move for move for the first parts I recall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv9YQGWb0mY&NR=1

[Lucas]

no one ever said kfmagazine was a democracy. as far as i can tell this is a dictatorship! :eek:

the mods control all, there is no voting and there sure aint to constitution.

[Yao Sing]

Anyone have Yin-Yang Mantis? The two-man set?

This goes move for move for the first parts I recall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv9YQGWb0mY&NR=1

That's Northern Mantis Bung Bo. You guys have that set but call it Yin-Yang Mantis?

[BoulderDawg]

oh my god they are makinga movie out of sd lol
well thats going strait to dvd lmao

Honestly though most Indie movies don't even get distrubuted to DVD.

If his movie can get made that will be an "accomplishment", if it can get distrubuted on DVD that a "win", if it can actually be distrubuted in movie theatres here in America that is "Success beyond his wildest dreams".

[Leto]

That's Northern Mantis Bung Bo. You guys have that set but call it Yin-Yang Mantis?

Actually, it was called secret door mantis fist (pi men tang lang quan). I'm not sure if it was exactly the standard beng bu, but it is pretty close. It is taught as a two-man set, so the seminar/festival where it is taught is called "yin-yang mantis". The "yang" side is the standard form, and the "yin" side is opposing the techniques of the standard form. In the two person sequence, you trade off doing the yang side and yin side, so it becomes quite confusing, since neither of you perform the entire standard sequence. It's broken into four sections, so you perform section one of the "yang" standard form while your opponent attacks you, then you attack him with the "yin" side in section two while he does the standard form, and so forth.

[kwaichang]

We have a Bong Bu as well some of the moves are similar KC

[Old Noob]

To black ball Goju for his statement is wrong he did not insult anyone on purpose it was just his warped sense of humor, and I dont really care for his attitude but freedom of speech is an important thing so are bad jokes KC

I think Gene can probably handle some dishing. It's the racism that is really pretty unacceptable. Folks have been banned from here before due to that. Coincidentally, isn't that what got MKRII kicked off?

[Shaolin Wookie]

That's Northern Mantis Bung Bo. You guys have that set but call it Yin-Yang Mantis?

I don't know the official name. I think they call it Yin-Yang since it's two sided due to the two man element. I just know that the two man version I've seen is, essentially, doing the side of the vid I just posted while utilizing the techniques against the other side's attacks.

I didn't think it was Bung Bo, though, since the form differs in most versions.....kind of like lots of sevenstar mantis. Plus, this guy's bow is exactly the same as ours, which is different from other versions I've seen. Slightly different applications, you can see, but exactly the same movements in the same order.

It's a pretty cool set, no matter what.

[Shaolin Wookie]

SW(Shaolin Wookie Anyone have Yin-Yang Mantis? The two-man set? )
Which road 1,2,3 or 4?


LOL....OTD.

Dude, you tell me.:D Didn't know there were that many roads.

I'll assume it was the first...couldn't say.

[kwaichang]

You know I am not a prejudice guy but I really get tired of people telling me how to think and words to say or not say etc. To me if a person wants to be prejudice that is their choice. After all America was founded on choice. They pay the conciquences in the end. Most who tell you to not be , or it is wrong to be that way , are the most prejudice people I have witnessed. Just a thought. KC

[shen ku]

like the new hate crime thing they are pushing,,, that is going to pass.. if you do a crime against some of this group or belife or this sexuality or what ever.... you will get punished worse,, then if it was against someone of another group??? what the ,,,,is up with that,,,

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hmm.....how bout one just doesn't commit a crime, let one's hate loose, or think so much of oneself that another would seem second class. Seems like laws and regulations wouldn't matter, right?

Kindness doesn't kill. It undermines the need for authority.

[shen ku]

i was more thinking if someone did one against myself or a family member?? that just because my skin is one color or because i like having sex with this or that type should that mater in how the person is punished

[kwaichang]

All crimes are a hate crime either against others or oneself. My feeling is this country was founded on equality and freedom, if a person doesnt like say, blacks hispanics asians or what ever then they should have that right. And since this is America then one shouldnt be condemned for expressing their thoughts. I am just tired of government trying to control our thoughts and actions with stupid unconstitutional laws. It is like working a job with a woman and we are doing the same job. Both should be paid equal pay, but then the woman shouldnt evr ask the man to lift something for her "because he is stronger or a man". KC

[kwaichang]

WEll guys I just got cussed by LK over the forum already E-mailed Gene to let him know and respectfully asked for LK to be barred. KC

[MasterKiller]

All crimes are a hate crime either against others or oneself. My feeling is this country was founded on equality and freedom, if a person doesnt like say, blacks hispanics asians or what ever then they should have that right. And since this is America then one shouldnt be condemned for expressing their thoughts. I am just tired of government trying to control our thoughts and actions with stupid unconstitutional laws. It is like working a job with a woman and we are doing the same job. Both should be paid equal pay, but then the woman shouldnt evr ask the man to lift something for her "because he is stronger or a man". KC

In America, you can say and believe anything you want. That's freedom of expression. Of course, others also have the right to not listen to you. That's freedom of expression, too.

The owners of this site choose not to listen to or condone certain expressions of freedom on their property. If you don't like that, you can exercise your freedom by expressing yourself somewhere else.

[shen ku]

MK ,, look around , you just don't know how untrue your statment is becoming in this country

[goju]

what on earth is going on this thread now?
i dont dislike gene i was joking along with wookie about hating kung fu magazine
nor do i hate mexicans im married to one

?????????????? your guys need to stop taking your weirdo pills

seriously

[kwaichang]

There just seems to be some bias as to WHO can say what, Lk in Newyork can outright use profanity but I guess because he has a thriving school he is allowed to cuss on the web/ this forum and get away with it, my feeling is it should have the same effect for all if Goju got introuble then so should LK but this is not the case here. MK I am not the one that is saying things , but if I choose to I will choose my words carfully , censorship is still censorship it doesnt matter who owns what in america. KC

[MasterKiller]

There just seems to be some bias as to WHO can say what, Lk in Newyork can outright use profanity but I guess because he has a thriving school he is allowed to cuss on the web/ this forum and get away with it, my feeling is it should have the same effect for all if Goju got introuble then so should LK but this is not the case here.

The powers that be don't mind yelling and fussing. You can call each other bums all day long. They won't tolerare racist remarks, though.

Gene doesn't even like LKFMDC. He's not protecting him, by any stretch. LKFMDC just knows when to shut up and when he can push.


censorship is still censorship it doesnt matter who owns what in america. KC Freedom of expression also means freedom from expression. If I don't want to listen to your ideas, I don't have to. That's what America is supposed to be about. You wouldn't let a man stand in your living room and call your wife a wh0re, would you?

Of course, if I don't like your God, I still have to recite his name in my country's pledge of allegiance and see it on my money whenever I buy milk, so maybe Al Queda won afterall.

[Shaolin Wookie]

what on earth is going on this thread now?
i dont dislike gene i was joking along with wookie about hating kung fu magazine
nor do i hate mexicans im married to one

?????????????? your guys need to stop taking your weirdo pills

seriously

I thought so. I knew you were joking around with good-natured ribald...but when you couple that with bad spelling, poor punctuation and capitalization, and link it to your trolling on the thread---it makes you sound like a racist redneck.

Sometimes it's not what you say, it's how you spell it.:D

And we all know you only married that mexican so you could make her pay her taxes.

[Judge Pen]

Free Speech has always been limited. It's the limits the constitution and the law place on the degree the goverment can limit speech that keeps it "free."

Here we are not on a street corner talking about whatever we want. We agreed to limit what we can say be agreeing to the terms of the site. So the moderators have discretion to ban or punish us for what we say. If we don't like it, we can leave.

[Facepalm]

So The Golden Leopard Fist 3rd and 4th roads festival was this weekend.

I still feel like ive been hit by a bus.

so many elbows

so many knees

my brain was fried by the end of the day

GMT was funny and energetic all day. He urged us all to worry about our health and drink wheat grass.

Then he told a long story about some huge guy from back in the day.

Overall it was a blast.

Ive managed to learn the two forms minus the pressure points. But I know which parts of the body the strikes are intended to go.

This form is definitely the most physically challenging one by far that ive learned.

I cant wait to polish it up :D

[BentMonk]

Bent monk!!!!! Congratulations!!!!:D

Thanks. They say this is when life begins...so far they're right. :D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Then he told a long story about some huge guy from back in the day.



Was it, by any chance, about a bodybuilder dude who threw a motorcycle over a fence when his house was on fire, and GM Ie caused to **** his pants after activating a pressure point in his hand?

We've prob. all heard that yarn by now.

[Facepalm]

naw it was about a guy who was really strong but mute who loved martial arts. who wanted to be a general but he needed money to enter the tournament so he worked the job of 10 guys a lumber mill for 2 years.

And then he married this chick who didnt want to get married to anyone and she was really smart.

And they had like a really awesome daughter or something.

There was also like a giant warhammer made from a bell or something somewhere in the story.

[Shaolin Wookie]

naw it was about a guy who was really strong but mute who loved martial arts. who wanted to be a general but he needed money to enter the tournament so he worked the job of 10 guys a lumber mill for 2 years.

And then he married this chick who didnt want to get married to anyone and she was really smart.

And they had like a really awesome daughter or something.

There was also like a giant warhammer made from a bell or something somewhere in the story.

Oh. He was talking about me. BTW, The chinese word for warhammer is more along the lines of "Huge Dong." I think by the "bell" he was referring to my prodigious ding-dong.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Anyone ever heard of Shuang Lin (Twin Groves, I think) Monastery in Singapore?

Looks like it was an early 20th C. offshoot of Shaolin that settled in Singapore, taught Shaolin martial arts, and wasn't that far off from Indonesia.

I looked for examples of their forms to see regional differences between what we do and what they do, but all I could find was "Nam Pai Chuan"--a kind of offshoot of Shuang Lin. It looked like karatefied CMA in a way, way more karatefied than karatefied SD. Still--they have a form on youtube where they do that low crouching stance that is almost "bird-like".

Would be interesting to see what Shuang Lin's arts look like, and consider that if--and that's a big if--GGM Ie was a monk, he may have been familiar with the place.

[One student]

The first time I saw him in the robe was in the early 70's......he demo'd Iron Man (Buell Armory) before he taught it to us........it was an experience I still remember.
BQ

I remember a few times, when he was testing lower belts, wearing that robe for the testing. Never heard why or what it was. Mid to late 70's, early 80's.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I know I asked my teacher, and got a negative, but I can't remember if I asked you old-timers:

Are there lyrics for the main curriculum's material--the lower belt forms-black?]

I have lyrics for all of the extra stuff I've learned, except CrazyMad Drunk and Drunken Straight Sword.

Just looking for more stuff to flesh out what I'm learning.

[goju]

And we all know you only married that mexican so you could make her pay her taxes.

LMAO!!!!! ah man that was ****in funny

[brucereiter]

I know I asked my teacher, and got a negative, but I can't remember if I asked you old-timers:

Are there lyrics for the main curriculum's material--the lower belt forms-black?]

I have lyrics for all of the extra stuff I've learned, except CrazyMad Drunk and Drunken Straight Sword.

Just looking for more stuff to flesh out what I'm learning.

dont know if the is "lyrics" but i think it is from ky ...

White to Rok-Kyu (Yellow Belt)

Short Kata 10 of 108 origin.: Honan Shaolin Temple
Tuan Ta Fa Chien

1. punch with headblock, block down, step
2. punch with headblock, block down, block up,
punch with deadblock, hit kick
3. thrust with headblock, punch with headblock, hitkick
4. block, twist, sweep
5. double front kick with yell
6. punch with headblock, smash, smash, block back and
smash, smash, hitkick
7. block, twist, sweep, back sweep with blocks, front kick
8. cross kick, front kick, turn, back kick, back kick
9. front cross kick, front kick, back kick, back kick
10. pivot to horse stance with blocks, block in, jump and
punch out, block out, jump and punch out

Sparring Techniques
Luan Ta Fa Shu

1. hit
2. three attack
3. jump, trap, front kick, hit
4. jump, sweep, side thrust, hit
5. jump three attack in air
6. jump, back sweep, front kick, hit
7. hook kick
8. cover sweep, hit
9. jumping side thrust, block down
10. surprise attack

Self - Defense Techniques
1. grab the hair 5. reverse finger lock
2. grab the hair from behind 6. low finger lock
3. front choke 7. shoulder finger lock
4. choke form behind 8. high finger lock

[Shaolin Wookie]

I was thinking more for the animal forms and weapons forms.

You know, how the golden leopards have lyrics, etc.

Some of 'em are not poetic, like White Monkey STP---those lyrics are really kind of like the ones you posted. Just wondering if the cranes, birds, or mountain tiger had something similar.

[Facepalm]

GMT

had stories that went along with sections of the golden leopard forms. They really help me remember those sections.

Ive never really heard anything about lyrics but Id be interested to find out

[Shaolin Wookie]

GMT

had stories that went along with sections of the golden leopard forms. They really help me remember those sections.

Ive never really heard anything about lyrics but Id be interested to find out

Exactly. I don't have problems remembering forms, nowadays. But in the Double Daggers, in the Leopards, etc....the posture names help you determine a flow sometimes in your form, so you know where the marker points are.

It's my opinion that SD doesn't look that karate-ish if you manage to find the marker points in a form--where you ought to pause for a second or two, often where a technique ends.

I think it's part of how SD is trained across the board on the external side--we use the forms for cardio and rush through them without recognizing their internal pace---something that is also determined by the animal characteristics. Yeah, it's a bit like acting or role-playing, or dancing---just a little--but hey, we knew that when we picked CMA animal based stuff.:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here for your viewing pleasure, or displeasure, is the wookie. Vids from my performances at the Battle of Atlanta.

Bai Yuan Tou Tao-White Monkey Steals the Peach (http://www.youtube.com/user/ShaolinTaoist#play/all/uploads-all/2/vRAbKFY2FYY)

I start around the minute mark. I asked the first dude what he did, he said "Pai Long" which I figured was some kind of generic Chinese Kempo thing---at least that's what it looked like.

I took 2nd place with this form, even though I kept running out of floor space, which slowed the pace of the form down to a slow shuffle at the ends of the lines...LOL. As you can see in my comments on the vid, I took out one of the roundhouses in the third line. I practice the form with the two kicks, but it did look better with one, in my opinion, and this was a forms competition. Bad angle on the vid, I know.....

I thought my hands were pretty crisp for the most part, but I got nervous and ended up rushing through the form.....same with the daggers. I should have posed more for the judges.

The dude who beat me out did a mismash of Eagle Claw, Longfist, and just some generic acrobatics, which he somehow managed to push through the "traditional soft style" division, even though he told me he made it up. Can't hate on him--it was really cool, but he should have been in the "Creative Forms" Division. But he only threw one punch.:rolleyes:

One judge and two spectators afterwards told me I should have won as it was. Would have been cool. Never been to a tournament before, and the other guys were seasoned tournament dudes--most modern wushu. Seemed to hold my own pretty well.

Shaolin Suang Pi Sou Ti Ie Lu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcOEPdl9KJs)

I tied for 3rd with this form with a dude who had a pudao form. The guy who won had a double chain whip form, which was just friggin' sweet, and the 2nd place guy had a kickass wushu broadsword form. When I saw the dude walk out with two chain whips, I turned to the broadsword guy and said: "You do realize we just lost this one, don't you?" LOL.....

Despite the fact I practiced with more posing, though I ended up rushing through the form, I did like my pace. Should have jumped higher, though, on my kicks/jumps.

20 X 20 floorspaces for competitions suck for ST forms. Hell, as I'm sure you guys know, sometimes it's hard to practice solo in schools with ample floorspace...LOL.

[yeti]

blah blah blah
video
more words


Nice work man! I am very impressed, thank you for sharing! :)

[Judge Pen]

Excellent. I really liked your form and really nice to see you put your stuff out there for the peanut gallery to comment. incidently, I don't know either of those forms myself (although I've seen them performed several times). I learned a non-SD version of white ape steals the peach a while ago, and I thought yours was very nice and clean.

[kwaichang]

2nd and 3rd at the Battle of Atlanta an open tourney. Great the forms looked great very smooth with good transition. Congrads now they will have to shut up about SD not being in open tournaments. Thanks for posting KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Excellent. I really liked your form and really nice to see you put your stuff out there for the peanut gallery to comment. incidently, I don't know either of those forms myself (although I've seen them performed several times). I learned a non-SD version of white ape steals the peach a while ago, and I thought yours was very nice and clean.

Yeah. I learned them in seminar format, but kept them in pretty good shape. Meant there wasn't a whole lot of instruction on them alone, which left them up to my interpretation, etc.

The mantis, however, has gotten much better with further instruction in Cha Chui, Tang Lang, Yin Yang, etc....two of which are seminars as well. But then, most of 7* mantis is really just a repitition of previous sets in a different order.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'll tell you this much, tournaments are about as boring an activity as ever invented. I don't quite get the appeal.

Oh my god, I was almost bored to tears most of the day. :eek: Only, I can't actually produce tears, since I don't have a heart.

[qauntum2]

Shaolin Wookie.... Very impressive!! Timing in the form was pretty good, moves were crisp. You are an excellent representative for SD.
quantum59 :)

[kwaichang]

I like Shaolin Bei Yen Tang Lang Chien, White Monkey Preying Mantis fist, It has been one of my favorites since 1992 KC:)

[Judge Pen]

It's funny--all these people talking bad about SD, but as soon as Wookie (sometimes a lightning rod himself) posts pics of him doing SD forms, it is tumbleweeds on this thread. I'm not saying that the clear evidence of Wookie's martial skill has silenced all the controversy, but it is like many people here subscribe to the maxim "if you can't say nothing bad, don't say nothing at all."

[Old Noob]

It's funny--all these people talking bad about SD, but as soon as Wookie (sometimes a lightning rod himself) posts pics of him doing SD forms, it is tumbleweeds on this thread. I'm not saying that the clear evidence of Wookie's martial skill has silenced all the controversy, but it is like many people here subscribe to the maxim "if you can't say nothing bad, don't say nothing at all."

Oh, the critics are not all silent. LKFMDC, Goju, et al. are in a current war of words with KC and Wook had the misfortune of making a lucid comment, which set him up for negative feedback on his vids. I don't think there will ever be a shortage of folks who have to tear others down in order to lift themselves in their own esteem. Sad...

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL....LKFMDC and GOJU say something negative? Say it ain't so.

When you post a vid on the internet, or bring it here, you can pretty much expect the negativity to pop out. Fortunately for me, I'm not sensitive in the least and I enjoy my art.

LOL...if they want to rip on the tournament venue, that's fine. I found it boring, and probably won't go to another tournament. I practice for MA, to keep in shape, for a challenge, and for meditative purposes. I also go to a Chan Monastery here in Atlanta, to flesh out my practices. I've never met people so kind as the monks and nuns, LOL. So what's a troll to me?;)

In ATlanta, the BOA is just about as big as it gets. One KFM poster said I should bring my **** to the TAIJI Legacy, the real CMA tournament. LOL...on the other side of the country. I see that in my stars.:rolleyes: Drive across the country, or fly ($) to go to another tournament that'll likely bore me to death with all the cookie cutter wushu routines. Maybe the Scrima tourney in Orlando? No thanks ($). Seen one, seen 'em all. Not exactly a priority. Hell, I left the tournament early because it was behind schedule and would have taken another 2 hours just to get to the sparring (I'd been there for 3 hours already)--and that's the reason I went in the first place. It was that exciting.:D

The CMA tournout wasn't as big as karate or TKD's. I'd never seen karate competition before. Awesome stances, which has inspired me to stance train like never before (Yue Fei, 1 leg squats, san he workout routines), but not a lot of movement (which makes a stance easy). Since I'd never been to a tournament, and all of the other guys had been competing since they were kids, I was supposed to be judged in a different class. He head judge said he'd see how I stacked up, then decide if I should be judged against the other guys or in my own class. I was kind of flattered he did the former. Clearly, my daggers weren't as exciting as double chain whips or wushu broadsword...LOL...but my hand form did alright.

The head judge for trad. soft style was a really nice guy. He was a Tien Shan Pai guy. He was the only one that talked that much. Said he'd studied in China. ANd I think he's a part of the Urban Dragons movement--using martial arts for inner city community outreach. If I'm not mistaken, the Black Taoist was part of that, too. Sounded like a really good guy.

[Shaolin Wookie]

As for comments, I posted in the Mantis forum. They said if I worked on my stances, more precise coordination of hands and feet, and the form's timing, I'd have a pretty clean set there.

Implied translation: Wookie, it needs work, but it's not hopeless.:D

I'll record it again at the end of the year with Cha Chui and see what more hard work does to it. Hopefully I'll have the legs I need for better mantis footwork by then.



Sept. 2nd---they're teaching Stomping Drunken Immortal in Seminar.

LOL...Crazy Mad Drunk, Zui Jian, Zhong Li....knocking 'em down one at a time.;) Jealous?:D

[humbleman]

http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=ush_mailm&ei=UTF-8&p=tiger+mountain+peasant+song

[Judge Pen]

I thought the comments in the manits forum were very constructive. Not negative in the least.

As for goju and Ross, Ross just likes pushing buttons. A lot of his arguments are strawman or ad hominem but he does them just to try to get a rise out of people. I've seen those threads and goju reminds me of the little guy with the high school bully laughing and agreeing with the bully at every turn. That's sad, because Ross would turn on him in a heartbeat if they ever started discussing martial arts.

[Shaolin Wookie]

There's always an Official CMA/Unofficial CMA tension. Atlanta is a breeding grounds, IMO, for unofficial CMA schools. I've been to quite a few schools (more than 8, at least). Even some of the unofficial schools are alright in my opinion.

I visited Shawn Liu's new school in Norcross a month ago and took a free class. Liu, who some (esp. LKFMDC) have an intense disliking for because he's not an official monk (IDK, myself, but I suspect he's not), yet introduces himself as a disciple of Su Xi--he was a quiet, humble, and respectful dude in my interactions with him. I actually enjoyed talking with him about his training, Pat Barry, and Cung Le's training, even though I know the controversies surrounding his rep. One of the students was a little presumptuous, but was impressed by my flexibility, speed, etc.---since, I suspect, it was better than his, based on what I saw. LOL....They were working hard at it over there. I can't find fault with that.

They taught me some chopped up version of the Tan Tui, at least that's what I suspect it was based on my Longfist training. Not useless. It would have made a good foundation for anyone. But I'm sure the "official CMA" guys would have ripped on the school mercilessly for its "made-up" forms. I've been to official CMA schools and not even bothered to stick around for a class, based on the "holier than thou" attitudes of teachers and students, who see 1 way of martial arts, and who ripped on my training in MMA and BJJ as well as sport oriented.:rolleyes: Hell, even in BJJ, they ripped on my kung fu a little as fantasy based, and most of their presumptions were entirely inaccurate, as they assumed they knew what my fight theory was, as if CMA were one unified theory.:rolleyes:

The tension between MA's is ridiculous. I had no training in BJJ, but my Shaolin groundwork gave me an advantage in leg strength, maneuverability, and cardio on the ground vs. other BJJ beginners, as well as an ability to get back on my feet. You wouldn't believe how much of the footwork for BJJ takedowns and ground maneuvers is verbatim what I was doing in Capoeira. I suspect why people tend to suck at core SD forms is that you hit the ground in 50% of them, and that's not fun to practice in a non-padded floor. I had all the tools for the wrestling--a strong bridge, good flexibility, the cardio of a monster, an ability to walk-scramble in a squatting stance, power, control, relaxation under pressure. I just had to learn a new way to apply it. I was able to pick up the basic takedowns the first second I tried. My kickboxing skills were a good starting point for teh little MMA/Thai I did. But I wasn't really into those other schools, since they were an activity you actually had to go to the school in order to do, and I spend most of my time away from the schools due to my work/grad school schedule.

Shaolin-Do, TMA, are good for the non-school operating, schedule-heavy individual. That's me. I 'm not a pit fighter. I carry my gym around in my head, and any open floor space is a training hall.:cool: As fight-ready as MMA or BJJ or any live-resistance gym? Of course not....but a handy alternative for fight principles, if you practice daily. Besides--they're a person art, and they teach discipline, and if you do practice daily, you will always be in excellent condition.

Some of the most critical persons on this forum are MA teachers, and many of them are not in great shape, which means they clearly don't practice as much as their students--who are in better shape because of their training.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think the most remarkable thing about the tournament was that when I had finished, all of the ancient Chinese men in the audience stood up and applauded, saying: "Surely this is the true Shaolin martial art!"

LOL....:D

[Judge Pen]

I think the most remarkable thing about the tournament was that when I had finished, all of the ancient Chinese men in the audience stood up and applauded, saying: "Surely this is the true Shaolin martial art!"

LOL....:D

"Just like I was taught before Mao."

[Baqualin]

Great Job Wook......always love your attitude!!!!!
BQ

[kwaichang]

Hi Baqualin KC

[sean_stonehart]

There's always an Official CMA/Unofficial CMA tension. Atlanta is a breeding grounds, IMO, for unofficial CMA schools. I've been to quite a few schools (more than 8, at least). Even some of the unofficial schools are alright in my opinion.

I visited Shawn Liu's new school in Norcross a month ago and took a free class. Liu, who some (esp. LKFMDC) have an intense disliking for because he's not an official monk (IDK, myself, but I suspect he's not), yet introduces himself as a disciple of Su Xi--he was a quiet, humble, and respectful dude in my interactions with him. I actually enjoyed talking with him about his training, Pat Barry, and Cung Le's training, even though I know the controversies surrounding his rep. One of the students was a little presumptuous, but was impressed by my flexibility, speed, etc.---since, I suspect, it was better than his, based on what I saw. LOL....They were working hard at it over there. I can't find fault with that.

They taught me some chopped up version of the Tan Tui, at least that's what I suspect it was based on my Longfist training. Not useless. It would have made a good foundation for anyone. But I'm sure the "official CMA" guys would have ripped on the school mercilessly for its "made-up" forms. I've been to official CMA schools and not even bothered to stick around for a class, based on the "holier than thou" attitudes of teachers and students, who see 1 way of martial arts, and who ripped on my training in MMA and BJJ as well as sport oriented.:rolleyes: Hell, even in BJJ, they ripped on my kung fu a little as fantasy based, and most of their presumptions were entirely inaccurate, as they assumed they knew what my fight theory was, as if CMA were one unified theory.:rolleyes:

The tension between MA's is ridiculous. I had no training in BJJ, but my Shaolin groundwork gave me an advantage in leg strength, maneuverability, and cardio on the ground vs. other BJJ beginners, as well as an ability to get back on my feet. You wouldn't believe how much of the footwork for BJJ takedowns and ground maneuvers is verbatim what I was doing in Capoeira. I suspect why people tend to suck at core SD forms is that you hit the ground in 50% of them, and that's not fun to practice in a non-padded floor. I had all the tools for the wrestling--a strong bridge, good flexibility, the cardio of a monster, an ability to walk-scramble in a squatting stance, power, control, relaxation under pressure. I just had to learn a new way to apply it. I was able to pick up the basic takedowns the first second I tried. My kickboxing skills were a good starting point for teh little MMA/Thai I did. But I wasn't really into those other schools, since they were an activity you actually had to go to the school in order to do, and I spend most of my time away from the schools due to my work/grad school schedule.

Shaolin-Do, TMA, are good for the non-school operating, schedule-heavy individual. That's me. I 'm not a pit fighter. I carry my gym around in my head, and any open floor space is a training hall.:cool: As fight-ready as MMA or BJJ or any live-resistance gym? Of course not....but a handy alternative for fight principles, if you practice daily. Besides--they're a person art, and they teach discipline, and if you do practice daily, you will always be in excellent condition.

Some of the most critical persons on this forum are MA teachers, and many of them are not in great shape, which means they clearly don't practice as much as their students--who are in better shape because of their training.

[begin emcee]

Thank you constant from Georgia. Next in our evening gown division...

:D:eek::D:eek::D

[end emcee]

[Baqualin]

Hi Baqualin KC

Hey KC...been away for a bit and can't believe what's going on in the other threads....crazy......Wook kinda walked into a mouse trap......if I'm not mistaken weren't you taking up for Cujo a couple of weeks ago.....maybe if he runs into the right SD guy his a$$ will be handed to him and he will poof out of here.
Ross is an a$$ and loves to stir up ****......those threads read like a bunch of elementry students ****ed off because their circle jerk went bad.....doesn't look good for anybody.....the vid's posted of CTS ( who I respect ) were not anything out of the ordinary....GMS is a lot more impressive to me. Anyway don't let yourself get drug into a pi$$ing contest with the idiots. See ya soon,
BQ

[kwaichang]

Hey BQ no prob they are all gone. I guess gene did it KC

[goju]

[QUOTE=Baqualin;950721] ....maybe if he runs into the right SD guy his a$$ will be handed to him and he will poof out of here.
nah

[goju]

Oh, the critics are not all silent. LKFMDC, Goju, et al. are in a current war of words with KC and Wook had the misfortune of making a lucid comment, which set him up for negative feedback on his vids. I don't think there will ever be a shortage of folks who have to tear others down in order to lift themselves in their own esteem. Sad...
i didnt bad mouth wook because i cant see most vids on my puter :)
and this thread largely died after my sparring match with facepalm

[goju]

I thought the comments in the manits forum were very constructive. Not negative in the least.

As for goju and Ross, Ross just likes pushing buttons. A lot of his arguments are strawman or ad hominem but he does them just to try to get a rise out of people. I've seen those threads and goju reminds me of the little guy with the high school bully laughing and agreeing with the bully at every turn. That's sad, because Ross would turn on him in a heartbeat if they ever started discussing martial arts.
and im not defnding ross i honestly have no idea who the hell he is just noticed kc with his bogus challenges to spar and i jumped in

[kwaichang]

Goju out of respect for Gene and the forum I am not responding. If youi are ever in Tennessee I will be glad to give you a place to crash. KC

[goju]

Goju out of respect for Gene and the forum I am not responding. If youi are ever in Tennessee I will be glad to give you a place to crash. KC
why does it say your in la if your in tennesee? lol

[Old Noob]

i didnt bad mouth wook because i cant see most vids on my puter :)
and this thread largely died after my sparring match with facepalm

Hey Goju. No sweat. In the piece you quoted, I didn't say that you were critical of Wook. I said that you were a participant in a war of words with KC, which I think is a fair statement. I then said that Wook made a comment and that his vids were subsequently criticized. I didn't specify by whom. So, to sum up, I'm definitely not accusing you of criticizing Wook's vids. Now back to your scheduled flame war. Peace. :)

[kwaichang]

I have been thinking, There are basically 3 different schools of SD. There is the west schools , Calif etc, then there is Kentucky, Texas, Indiana, Iowa and that area which also has schools in DC, Louisiana and Florida. Then there is Tennessee, NC, W Virginia and Georgia. The last one is under 2 seperate Elder Masters, Master Grooms and Master Mullins. The ones in the Georgia Tenn area wear one type of uniform, The West wears another and The last one wears the Old style Gi that GM The wears. Uniforms to me is just another wardrobe option no big deal.
Here is the problem, because of the "personal" differences of these schools and primarily the Masters of the schools, If I were to visic California or move there I would not be allowed to open a school due to haveing ties with say the Georgia schools. And if I were allowed to, I would have to give a % of my gross to the Master from that area and possibly the Master that I am associated with. Also the Master from where I am teaching at wants to have control of my school curriculum and progress.
Here is my point
I live in a state that is under one master I train and have trained with another master, Yet I am not "allowed" to train with any students or schools of the master whose area I have moved to. How screwed up is that? This is because These 2 area Masters do not like each other, It seems to me that is between them and all this is doing is hurting the system as a whole. It is these Masters that are causing long time students to leave due to the rift that has been established. I am not making light of the rift or its cause but enoug is enough, This has become a political mess and just gives outsiders a skewed pic of SD as being disorganized and a sham, Many who I have spoken with in and out of any of the organizations are tired of the BS. I for one am too. So I propose we come togethor and resolve this problem so if I go to Idaho I can train there or I go to Tennessee I can train there , It should be abou the Art, The student and the Masters last as w/o students the Masters wouldnt have anyone to "boss" or teach. KC

[kwaichang]

Death to the politics, I want the right to train with a Shaolin Tao , or Shaolin Do or Shaolin tennessee, Georgia etc school , without any reprocussion from any of the Masters of any area. I should be able to Pay the tuition and train but maintain ties with my original school. I feel a grass root program can pull SD togethor and stop all this back biting and personal conflict being pressured on the "regular" student etc. OPINIONS, METHODS ???? KC

[Golden Tiger]

I feel a grass root program can pull SD togethor and stop all this back biting and personal conflict being pressured on the "regular" student etc. OPINIONS, METHODS ???? KC

Good luck.... That was tried before when there was only two "schools of thought". The East was "reluctantly" all for a consolidation but the West balked on the union. And this was not grass roots, this was the top working the deal.

As for the newer split, well, I have nothing to offer on that. I don't see any kind of reunion happening anytime soon. That's just the way it is. Fair, right, good for SD? No. But given the circumstances, it isn't going to change.


And if I were allowed to, I would have to give a % of my gross to the Master from that area and possibly the Master that I am associated with.

Who is taking a cut? That is a new one on me. I have seen the "teaching certificates" and seen the rules and no where did it say that other than a very specific situation does anyone other than the teacher of the school make any money from said school.



Many who I have spoken with in and out of any of the organizations are tired of the BS. I for one am too. As politely as I can put it, my house my rules. Your house your rules.

[kwaichang]

True about the house but with out people there is no house. I dont care whether the west comes into this thing but for a student of the SD system to be ostracized and not allowed to teach in an area just because someone doesnt want him or her too is ludicrous. There are ways to get around this and if we were all to stick togethor it may come to pass. KC

[taai gihk yahn]

I think the most remarkable thing about the tournament was that when I had finished, all of the ancient Chinese men in the audience stood up and applauded, saying: "Surely this is the true Shaolin martial art!"

LOL....:D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzpc1o0Y5-U&feature=related)
..........

[goju]

i know i laughed at that too but i think kwai took that comment seriously lol

[kwaichang]

I figure the old Chinese men know what they are talking about. KC

[goju]

I figure the old Chinese men know what they are talking about. KC
wookie was being sarcastic

[kwaichang]

I dont think so , what about it wookie? KC

[Judge Pen]

I took it as sarcasm too.

[shen ku]

it was sarcasim......... but i do know that when was in chine , after we demoed.... we got to see an old master do some things,,Hsing-I,and he had a student of his do mantis....... now i know me and stoneheart disagree on the idea behind why they did it.... but they were not supposed to be part of the demo... whe had already seen "the kids" do their thing.... and i know one of our master was setting with them during our demo and they said that they liked what the saw and wanted to share some of their truer stuff........ just my view point with the info that i have....... but i must say it was good stuff....... ok sean,,,,, please do tell your side that way it is a balance story ok..thanks

[kwaichang]

Only SW knows for sure I have seen the comments before. I believe the comments may have been different had a MA with little or no skill had done the forms. The "flavor" is what defines a form in my opinion. It can be the best Chinese Shaolin form but if it is done with Karate flavor then it will suck KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

It was a joke---surely you heard that one from the SD China trips some time or another.:D

But three separate people, one was 1 of the judges, did commend me afterwards as the only guy that threw a decent punch in the soft styles, saying I should have taken teh "traditional" 1st place over the Longfist mishmash that won.

Tourney shmoorney...it doesn't matter. IT was a training spike. Gave me something to work towards, a reason to really hit my forms hard, and polish up material many of my classmates never kept up and therefore lost. I was training daily, but I found in my prep a great new way to train that shows benefits quickly.

Pick 1 form and do it 10 times a day. Still do tai chi, pakua, etc. in the morning and on work breaks, but at night do at least 1 form 10 times---but in a row.

Reps 1-5 Balls to the wall speed, looking to speed up transitions/footwork by forcing myself to.

Rep 6-Slow, working on pace, form, timing....just like I learned it originally.

Rep 7- Slow, with power, with crips action.

Reps 8-10--Balls to teh wall, but with better timing, better pacing, better power, better crispness.

In between each rep, you can do another form (perhaps taking it a little easier) just to stay moving.


Now I'm doing 2-3 forms 10 times a night. 1 weapon, 2 fist forms. Dude, it's addicting. Try to keep the same form going throughout the week, either as teh main focus, or the in-between rep cool down.

It sounds boring, but it's actually the exact opposite. I'm getting more out of training now than I ever have. I'm more and more impressed with the basics, perhaps because they're finally getting the kind of pointed attention they really deserve.

[kwaichang]

Might have been a joke but was probably TRUE KC

[goju]

Might have been a joke but was probably TRUE KC
shakes head at kc

your hopeless

[taai gihk yahn]

shakes head at kc

your hopeless

nope, he's too much (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yon2YuXssvo)!

[kwaichang]

Oh guys come on you both know SD is the real deal but you have said it isnt for so long that you cant renig on your statements now. I once saw a student of a great CMA Master that was so bad that everyone swore what he was doing was just junk. Never judge a book by its cover, read the whole book a few times then make a determination. KC

[goju]

Oh guys come on you both know SD is the real deal but you have said it isnt for so long that you cant renig on your statements now. I once saw a student of a great CMA Master that was so bad that everyone swore what he was doing was just junk. Never judge a book by its cover, read the whole book a few times then make a determination. KC
you seriously have lost it. your posts now are just nonsensical looney ranting

lol look he still hasnt removed that quote in his sig

ah kwai if you truly beleive it then it is not a lie

[Taryn P.]

Rep 7- Slow, with power, with crips action.
.

With crips action? Does that mean we're supposed to do the form with a blue do-rag and saggy pants on, a Glock stuck in our waistbands, and flash a gang sign afer the salute?



Sorry........
:D

[sean_stonehart]

it was sarcasim......... but i do know that when was in chine , after we demoed.... we got to see an old master do some things,,Hsing-I,and he had a student of his do mantis....... now i know me and stoneheart disagree on the idea behind why they did it.... but they were not supposed to be part of the demo... whe had already seen "the kids" do their thing.... and i know one of our master was setting with them during our demo and they said that they liked what the saw and wanted to share some of their truer stuff........ just my view point with the info that i have....... but i must say it was good stuff....... ok sean,,,,, please do tell your side that way it is a balance story ok..thanks

Nah ... that's pretty much the size of it. Zhao Chang jun's teacher got out & knocked out a serious Xingyi linkage after bumming some shoes from one of the kids sitting near him & then ZCJ's #1 student wore out a PM set. The nice thing was the sets weren't modern.

They were sitting with Master's Nance & Minginone (SP) IIRC.

[shen ku]

just to add a name master price was also setting with them,, just because he was the one i personally talked with about it,,,
how have you been sean,,, hope your not eating to much of the food,, i have some good peanut butter here , so i'm all good...lol

[sean_stonehart]

just to add a name master price was also setting with them,, just because he was the one i personally talked with about it,,,
how have you been sean,,, hope your not eating to much of the food,, i have some good peanut butter here , so i'm all good...lol

You're right. I forgot he was at the table as well.

As far as the food... yeah... lots & all of it... last weekend was Thai BBQ Ribs, Bok Choy & Tofu for lunch, then dinner was Korean BBQ ribs with pickled veggies & Japanese Mochi for desert. Sunday was Hong Kong style duck with Crispy Pork & Red Pork, Bok Choy & pickled veggies... yyyyyyuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmm

How'd you do last year with the peanut butter shortage? hehehehehehe... :-)

[shen ku]

truefully.............i lost about 35#........i really did i swear,,,

[yeti]

You're right. I forgot he was at the table as well.

As far as the food... yeah... lots & all of it... last weekend was Thai BBQ Ribs, Bok Choy & Tofu for lunch, then dinner was Korean BBQ ribs with pickled veggies & Japanese Mochi for desert. Sunday was Hong Kong style duck with Crispy Pork & Red Pork, Bok Choy & pickled veggies... yyyyyyuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmm

How'd you do last year with the peanut butter shortage? hehehehehehe... :-)

****, that was some good food the other weekend, wasn't it? I can't believe we didn't find that **** HK BBQ earlier, still kills me. I gotta go back there and get some of the crispy pork...

God ****, they seriously won't let me type ****?! **** is edited? WTF man?

[sean_stonehart]

****, that was some good food the other weekend, wasn't it? I can't believe we didn't find that **** HK BBQ earlier, still kills me. I gotta go back there and get some of the crispy pork...

God ****, they seriously won't let me type ****?! **** is edited? WTF man?

yes... yes it was... give me shivers still thinking about it.

[kwaichang]

Rush Limpgall has lost 90# I hear he is eating alot of Crow. KC

[oasis]

so have the sd folks seen the weapons feature in the current issue of kfm? it has a weapon previously owned by bill leonard, fyi

[Crushing Step]

Wow, this thread is still up... So do all SD related questions go here? Why not... So guys, anyone from the Lexington, KY school and is that the main one? Seems like it from a quick glance anyway...

[Judge Pen]

Wow, this thread is still up... So do all SD related questions go here? Why not... So guys, anyone from the Lexington, KY school and is that the main one? Seems like it from a quick glance anyway...

Lexington is the oldest and the original school. There is so much diversity in SD now that each faction, if you will, could argue that their school is the main school (and it is for them), but Master Leonard is the most elder student and his school is the oldest school.

[Crushing Step]

Thanks Judge Pen for the reply. In hindsight I forgot you were in Knoxville, I should have stopped by some time, I lived in Tennessee for about a year...

I may or may not be going through Lexington, and have never seen SD for myself. Not for curiosity of learning, but just to see it in action. I for one can be pretty critical of SD, maybe it's better if I actually see what they do!

[oasis]

so have the sd folks seen the weapons feature in the current issue of kfm? it has a weapon previously owned by bill leonard, fyi

surprised none of the sd folks commented on this. do any of you even read the magazine? :confused:

[kwaichang]

Sure just havent gotten mine yet. I thought I had a subscription KC

[Judge Pen]

Sure just havent gotten mine yet. I thought I had a subscription KC

I thought you did too. I don't think it has expired. I'll swing by Boarders and pick up a copy. Looks like it may be time to renew the script.

[solo1]

Its a great photo of the weapon and Elder Master Leonard, page 54 of the sept/oct KFM

[yu shan]

JP

I tried to send you a pm but your mailbox is full. You ever heard of a fellow named Casey Jones? He called me about checking out my school, I had the understanding he was with the SD school here in Nashville. He was disappointed in the direction they were going and wanted to try something else. He sounded upbeat about meeting me but never showed up, oh well what do you do.

Jim

[Judge Pen]

JP

I tried to send you a pm but your mailbox is full. You ever heard of a fellow named Casey Jones? He called me about checking out my school, I had the understanding he was with the SD school here in Nashville. He was disappointed in the direction they were going and wanted to try something else. He sounded upbeat about meeting me but never showed up, oh well what do you do.

Jim

Sorry about the PM. Need to clean it out. I don't recognize the name, but may know the face.

[shen ku]

what kind of weapon was master leonard holding?

[bodhi warrior]

Found this video on YouTube. It's from green dragon studios in Ohio.
It's exactly the same as our greenbelt shortstick form. Anyone ever checked out their other stuff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCWXkNTB4h4

[Lucas]

Is this the weapon (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-77.html)

or perhaps this (http://www.wle.com/products/WGL318.html)

i havnt seen the issue, yet, but i believe there is a corresponding thread regarding aquiring this weapon on the main forum section.

[oasis]

Found this video on YouTube. It's from green dragon studios in Ohio.
It's exactly the same as our greenbelt shortstick form. Anyone ever checked out their other stuff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCWXkNTB4h4


Wow, that is interesting to see green dragon studios offering that. :eek: i wonder if a former sder from ohio introduced it, or if both picked it up from somewhere else...

and yes lucas, the first weapon is the one in the magazine.

[Judge Pen]

Found this video on YouTube. It's from green dragon studios in Ohio.
It's exactly the same as our greenbelt shortstick form. Anyone ever checked out their other stuff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCWXkNTB4h4

Interesting. It was embellished a bit with with the hopping, but that's the same form. Wonder how they got it?

[Judge Pen]

Is this the weapon (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-77.html)

or perhaps this (http://www.wle.com/products/WGL318.html)

i havnt seen the issue, yet, but i believe there is a corresponding thread regarding aquiring this weapon on the main forum section.

I thought that second weapon was a sai. Isn't that Japanese?:D

[Sal Canzonieri]

Green Dragon is the worst of the worst, if you aren't embarrassed enough that you even can look at one of their videos, that you would even say that they do the same forms as you, then I feel truly sorry about how pathetic your training has been and how much money you have been throwing away to learn garbage.

[goju]

Green Dragon is the worst of the worst, if you aren't embarrassed enough that you even can look at one of their videos, that you would even say that they do the same forms as you, then I feel truly sorry about how pathetic your training has been and how much money you have been throwing away to learn garbage.

here we go againlol:D:D:D:D

[bodhi warrior]

Green Dragon is the worst of the worst, if you aren't embarrassed enough that you even can look at one of their videos, that you would even say that they do the same forms as you, then I feel truly sorry about how pathetic your training has been and how much money you have been throwing away to learn garbage.

I didn't purchase this video. Just happened upon it on YouTube. The sequence of postures is what is the same, but I didn't think it was performed well at all. This form is a beginners form in SD.
That being said. Using your line of thinking, if you see greendragon selling one of your longfist routines, and doing it poorly, then your longfist must be bad also.

[Judge Pen]

It's been widely speculated that Greed Dragon has been lifting forms from other sources and packaging and selling it as their own. It appears that SD isn't immune to that treatment.

[Baqualin]

Green Dragon has been doing this for as long as I can remember....doesn't surprise me.

[Baqualin]

Thanks Judge Pen for the reply. In hindsight I forgot you were in Knoxville, I should have stopped by some time, I lived in Tennessee for about a year...

I may or may not be going through Lexington, and have never seen SD for myself. Not for curiosity of learning, but just to see it in action. I for one can be pretty critical of SD, maybe it's better if I actually see what they do!

If you come through Lexington....let me know....your more than welcome to stop by and check us out.
BQ

[kwaichang]

You know man you have totally missed the whole concept of MA and esp Shaolin MA. You arrogance and ego are only surpassed by your out and out stupidity. Your statements are inflammatory and without spiritual merit. I dont care what you have written or done or thought. But you need a lesson in humility and discipline. KC

[Lucas]

I thought that second weapon was a sai. Isn't that Japanese?:D

:p

yes and no i suppose. remember the amount of culture and technique that japan lifted from china. written language, philosophy, sword forging techniques, martial arts, etc.

sword breakers are pretty much a part of any culture that has seen heavy use of the sword. europe has(d) their own version. with designs similar to this (http://riversbendcustomknives.com/db5/00412/riversbendcustomknives.com/_uimages/Swordbreaker.JPG) or the wide 'bladed' version with heavy notches along one side to catch the blade in.

from what ive notices, the gen that i posted, generally has a shorter catch guard, where as the sai's generally is extended a bit longer, which i like better personally.

[bodhi warrior]

It's been widely speculated that Greed Dragon has been lifting forms from other sources and packaging and selling it as their own. It appears that SD isn't immune to that treatment.

There's also a drunken form taught by master hiang called drunken ghost chases shadow. I'm wondering if it's the same as green dragons chun li chases ghost and monsters from an eight immortals style. I haven't seen either but the names are similar.

[kwaichang]

The sai was originally an Okinawan Farm implement It originally had a blade either on oneside or both prior to it being used as a self defense tool or during that time much like the Tonfa and the Nun Chaku, It was later developed into a weapon after Japan Conguered Okinawa, The Jitte was carried by the "police" in Japan and was an off shoot of the Sai which was used against the Samurai of the Tokugawa era I believe.around the 1600's. Most or some of Okinawan culture was derived from the southern Chinese areas and brought back by fisherman etc who visited China. KC

[tattooedmonk]

Found this video on YouTube. It's from green dragon studios in Ohio.
It's exactly the same as our greenbelt shortstick form. Anyone ever checked out their other stuff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCWXkNTB4h4What the PHUCK? That is the form alright but, it looks like white belts are performing it.:p:D What is with the straight arms?? If I wasnt looking at the specific movements I wouldnt have recognized the form. Also this is only part of the form. Terribly done.

Hey JP, No jumps in the way you play this set?? They have been teaching it that way out west since at least 1990.

[tattooedmonk]

It's been widely speculated that Greed Dragon has been lifting forms from other sources and packaging and selling it as their own. It appears that SD isn't immune to that treatment. But why would anyone want our forms, they are not Chinese in origin, fake and made up by someone who knows nothng about CMA !!!:p:rolleyes::D:eek:

[goju]

But why would anyone want our forms, they are not Chinese in origin, fake and made up by someone who knows nothng about CMA !!!:p:rolleyes::D:eek:
bout time you admitted it:D

[Leto]

The sai was originally an Okinawan Farm implement It originally had a blade either on oneside or both prior to it being used as a self defense tool or during that time much like the Tonfa and the Nun Chaku, It was later developed into a weapon after Japan Conguered Okinawa, The Jitte was carried by the "police" in Japan and was an off shoot of the Sai which was used against the Samurai of the Tokugawa era I believe.around the 1600's. Most or some of Okinawan culture was derived from the southern Chinese areas and brought back by fisherman etc who visited China. KC

The sai was never an Okinawan farm implement. It was a weapon used throughout China and southeast asia, including Okinawa. As far as I know it was never a bladed weapon, it was always a truncheon, used mainly by law enforcement.
Okinawa was a trading culture, fishermen didn't visit China. They were traders in expensive luxury goods much desired all over Asia, and took defense of their ships and their goods very seriously. The ryukyu islands really had no exports of their own, they had too few natural resources. Any iron/steel weapons they had would have been imported from another country. They were the middle men who bought and sold items to cultures who otherwise wouldn't have any contact with eachother (or who had less than cordial relations, like Japan and China). A tributary alliance with China was established during the Tang dynasty, and for centuries Chinese government and trading envoys lived on Okinawa sharing their culture, in addition to representatives of the Okinawan noble family traveling to China to study there. This is the most obvious way that Chinese martial arts and weapons were introduced to Okinawa.

[kwaichang]

Sai is a weapon that belongs to the arsenal of the okinawan kobudo. The exact date of its arrival to Okinawa is unknown, but the similar tools can be found throughout the coast of South Asia. There is an assumption that sai has been brought from China, where similar kinds of weapon can be found in the arsenals of the different kinds of chua �fa traditions. One theory says that this weapon was based on a similar tool that was used for making holes in the ground for planting rice. Nevertheless, since there is no solid proof, the origin of the sai has remained unknown.

Before 1900, sai was used by the members of the local police �chikusaji� for doing their duty and for self-protection. They were in charge for guarding the palace, collecting tax, maintaining the order and catching outlaws. Before the appearance of the fire weapon, staff was most common weapon used in physical confrontation. General population used different kinds of sticks, wands, clubs and hoes in daily work and in self-defense. Sai was the ideal weapon for defending oneself against attacker with a stick or a club, because it enables catching the opponent�s weapon and disarming.
This is from a site on Ko Budo or Okinawan weaponry KC

[kwaichang]

BTW the Okinawans during that time were not in trade but agriculture thus they were easily dominated by the Kyoshu or Japan inhabitants with their Sword and Other weapons as well as organised armies KC

[kwaichang]

THE SAI (SHORT SWORD WITH TWO PRONGS AT THE HANDLE) WAS A FARM AND FISHING IMPLEMENT. FOR FARMING, IT WAS DRAGGED THROUGH THE SOIL BY ONE PEASANT, WHILE ANOTHER WOULD PLANT SEED IN THE RESULTING FURROW. AS A FISHING TOOL, IT WAS ATTACHED TO A SIX FOOT TO NINE FOOT "BO" (STAFF) AND USED TO SPEAR FISH. IT WAS USED IT COMBAT MUCH LIKE THE "ROCHIN" (SPEAR). A SAI SET CONSIST OF THREE, ONE FOR EACH HAND (THEY WERE SHEATHED THROUGH THE SIDES OF THE OBI (BELT)) AND THE THREE SAI WAS CARRIED AT THE BACK OF THE OBI (BELT). EVEN A PROFICIENT SAI ARTIST WOULD FIND THE THIRD SAI CUMBERSOME IN THE REAR OF THE OBI (BELT) WHEN ENGAGING IN BATTLE. THUS THE THIRD SAI WAS ACTUALLY THROWN AT THE ENEMY. THIS MANEUVER WAS OFTEN THE KEY TO WINNING THE ENCOUNTER. THE OKINAWA SAI WAS DEVELOPED FROM A SIMILAR CHINESE WEAPON CALLED THE "SAN-KU-CHU".
Interesting KC

[Judge Pen]

What the PHUCK? That is the form alright but, it looks like white belts are performing it.:p:D What is with the straight arms?? If I wasnt looking at the specific movements I wouldnt have recognized the form. Also this is only part of the form. Terribly done.

Hey JP, No jumps in the way you play this set?? They have been teaching it that way out west since at least 1990.

They'res skipping steps but not emphazied the way they performed it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

What the PHUCK? That is the form alright but, it looks like white belts are performing it.:p:D What is with the straight arms?? If I wasnt looking at the specific movements I wouldnt have recognized the form. Also this is only part of the form. Terribly done.

Hey JP, No jumps in the way you play this set?? They have been teaching it that way out west since at least 1990.

Bizarre. THey're using the short sticks like they're swords, striking with the wrist pointed forward. You get too much recoil that way, and the stick stands a better chance of getting thwacked out of your hand. I always hold it like a hammer, 90 deg. from the wrist. Full impact, no recoil, sets up a quick second strike. It's not really our form, per say, since they're standing that high, and prancing like fairies.

Hmmmm....bad. It almost looks like someone who is trying to do wushu lifted an SD form and then wushu-ized it. Kind of like regurgitating something that was originally regurgitated to begin with...LOL!:D It actually reminds me of that form the dude from Fight Science did, when he regurgitated Lohan Chien and Fei Hu Chu Tung---it looked....well, like a form the guy learned on a lunch break. Better than Green Dragon's Whirlwind Fairy Form, but still not, uh, great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oihdajtsok4&feature=related (1:58 mark)

Jumps? We don't jump in ATL, but you move forward kind of like the way you do in broadsword---more like a hibbity-hop.;)

[tattooedmonk]

Bizarre. THey're using the short sticks like they're swords, striking with the wrist pointed forward. You get too much recoil that way, and the stick stands a better chance of getting thwacked out of your hand. I always hold it like a hammer, 90 deg. from the wrist. Full impact, no recoil, sets up a quick second strike. It's not really our form, per say, since they're standing that high, and prancing like fairies.

Hmmmm....bad. It almost looks like someone who is trying to do wushu lifted an SD form and then wushu-ized it. Kind of like regurgitating something that was originally regurgitated to begin with...LOL!:D It actually reminds me of that form the dude from Fight Science did, when he regurgitated Lohan Chien and Fei Hu Chu Tung---it looked....well, like a form the guy learned on a lunch break. Better than Green Dragon's Whirlwind Fairy Form, but still not, uh, great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oihdajtsok4&feature=related (1:58 mark)

Jumps? We don't jump in ATL, but you move forward kind of like the way you do in broadsword---more like a hibbity-hop.;) Yeah, thats about how I feel about it too. Terrible....

[bodhi warrior]

Found this video from out west. It's the crazy mad drunk form. Does anyone else do it this way? I learned this back in '85 and this is alittle different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdX9iZg09_U


I watched some the other videos he has and on a positive note the guy has good flexibility.

[kwaichang]

Not exactly it looks like they mixed Shang Chung Li with Foong Wang Chue ? sp, any way NO KC

[Golden Tiger]

While there may have been some editing to it, no, that is not the way I remember it. They have added quite a few moves from the Immortals set it appears. The front kick, back kick before clipping the foot is from Chou Kou Chu*(which there is no front kick/back kick there in the original form), the twist strike looks like the ones from Li Ti Kue, after the reverse smash the hand sequence is a bit off....

Anyway, its just a little different not necessarily wrong.

[shen ku]

any of you guys going to be at the gathering?

[kwaichang]

I will be there KC

[solo1]

I'm planning on going to lexington for the gathering, should be fun, looking ofrward to seeing Elder Master Leonard in action!

[sideslider]

What the PHUCK? That is the form alright but, it looks like white belts are performing it.:p:D What is with the straight arms?? If I wasnt looking at the specific movements I wouldnt have recognized the form. Also this is only part of the form. Terribly done.

Hey JP, No jumps in the way you play this set?? They have been teaching it that way out west since at least 1990.

Bei Fang Qi Gai Bang - "Stick Of The Northern Beggar"

cool form

thanks for sharing

[kwaichang]

Any one have a copy of the I chi Chings 1=49 written descriptions if so will you PM it to me or post for print Thanks KC

[brucereiter]

Any one have a copy of the I chi Chings 1=49 written descriptions if so will you PM it to me or post for print Thanks KC

pm me your email address.

[Judge Pen]

Any one have a copy of the I chi Chings 1=49 written descriptions if so will you PM it to me or post for print Thanks KC

I do KC. Call me again.

[kwaichang]

Thanks guys , Bruce thanks I finally got it to print. My bad mach not your sent message Thanks JP KC

[brucereiter]

Thanks guys , Bruce thanks I finally got it to print. My bad mach not your sent message Thanks JP KC

do you practice i chin ching?

[kwaichang]

Yes I just couldnt remember the numbers for sure. Great for rehab or injury KC

[kwaichang]

Just a thought Bruce, i watched your Tiger Hsing Ie, I was taught and not in SD that a tiger stuns then grabs or hits then claws . Just a thought KC

[brucereiter]

Just a thought Bruce, i watched your Tiger Hsing Ie, I was taught and not in SD that a tiger stuns then grabs or hits then claws . Just a thought KC

i would agree with the statement "stuns then grabs" ...

using the intent i show in that clip i am clearing and striking.
i do at times practice it with a more downward motion but i do not think of it as actually clawing someone.

for me as far as actually clawing a person i think it may do more damage to your own finger nails.

what are you actually clawing and how? are you clawing the face? if so to what affect?

are you clawing the chest? if so what if they are wearing even a light jacket?

thanks ... its good to actually talk about martial arts here ...

[kwaichang]

Stunning or breaking the clavicle then grabbing the tiger will immobilize with the mouth and or the front claws and rake with the back. i was thinking in the Hsing Ie sense the collarbone or clavicle break and rip KC

[Judge Pen]

"Clawing" in the Hsing Ie context is pulling down while sinking your weight. At least that was my understanding.

[kwaichang]

After opening move of Ching Kang Fu Hu Chien what is your interpretation of the moves after the arms are spread to both sides with Claws????? KC

[Lucas]

from the souther tiger i learned there are several instances where there is a double chest 'claw' then a double downward backfist often followed by a forward strike/doublestrike/takedown/uppercut.

for us, similar to what judge pen said, is drawing them down, as they resist to force themselves back up the double back fist is meant to crush the collar bones, having the opponent assist in creating more force as they rise into the blows. at that point a solar plexus strike or take down generally follows. at least that was the idea. i guess it depends on if your backfist is stonger than their collar bones ;)

[kwaichang]

Lucas that is the yellow belt tiger you are thinking of i am not talking about that one KC