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Old Man
09-04-2009, 10:30 AM
.................................................. ......

Lucas
09-04-2009, 10:38 AM
Lucas that is the yellow belt tiger you are thinking of i am not talking about that one KC

sorry, im not actually a sd practitioner. just some of the nan quan i picked up. And piping in where i dont belong :D

OldandUsed
09-04-2009, 11:27 AM
Old Man,

I still have one of the programs from one of the early tourneys. Thought they were called Mid-East Regionals, or something like that. Remember Wallace being there, as well as Steve Sanders and some others. I'll look around for it. It is buried with my old SD stuff.

Shaolin Wookie
09-04-2009, 07:25 PM
LOL...name one tournament where Superfoot Wallace isn't in attendance...LOL

I shook hands with him here in Atlanta at a tournament. He kind of smiled, and then winked. I didn't like his wink. Hell, I don't like any winks of any kind, not even when a cute chick winks at me. Ok, maybe a cute chick. But Bill Superfoot Wallace is not a cute chick. So I started to squeeze his hand, like REAL HARD. He tried to pull a chin-na on me. But I didn't let go. I just looked him in the eye and squeezed harder, and then I winked at him. He was like: "Dude, teach me." I told him to get a life with his crybaby butt and go buy some diapers and eat some fruit rollups, and then maybe I'd consider it.

I never heard back from him. But I heard from someone who knows Bill Superfoot Wallace that he's been training, HARD. I asked this person: "What for?"

He said he didn't know, but the last time he saw a training montage like Wallace's, it was in that movie Kickboxer. So I've been sleeping with one eye open.

brucereiter
09-04-2009, 09:44 PM
After opening move of Ching Kang Fu Hu Chien what is your interpretation of the moves after the arms are spread to both sides with Claws????? KC

are you asking about the hsingi tiger? i do not know the terms you used.

Old Man
09-05-2009, 06:13 AM
...................................

kwaichang
09-05-2009, 07:48 AM
No I am talking about the 1st BB Tiger form KC

Shaolin Wookie
09-05-2009, 09:39 AM
I know people say there's a use for every move in a form, but when people look for uses in things like bowing motions, and then show me some application for it, 9 times out of 10 I think---why in the hell would I ever do that?

But there's always something I will do in a form, every time, before I spar, or before I test, and that is.....well, bow.

Bowing is bowing. LOL....sure, you could come up with an application, but then, are you bowing? I bet most bowing applications would never work, but I'm pretty **** sure that if I do a 4-5 move bowing sequence correctly, it will always be a killer bowing sequence.;)

I don't think forms need that kind of dissection. Bows are martial by their "flavor", but if most bowing applications have hidden "rip off the head, and then just walk away like nothing ever happened" type applications, I think I should seriously consider my need to find a new martial art.

Shaolin Wookie
09-05-2009, 09:47 AM
Seriously, what do we end up doing when we spar:

1. Punch
2. Kick
3. Throw
4. Sweep
5. Rip off the nuts
6. Break the neck
7. Tiger claw the clavicle and snap it like a wishbone


Not that I'm being presumptuous, but against anyone who's a decent fighter, anything but 1-4 is likely to get you KTFO'd. Sure, you could tiger claw some bum's clavicle if he jumped you, but wouldn't you get more satisfaction from landing a few leg kicks, getting him to limp and wince, before you knee him in the face.....and then tiger claw his clavicle?

If you spar light-medium contact, you carry yourself differently than if you know you're going in for full contact fighting. In hte latter, you stay tight, stand higher, and you're more reactive--it's not because you're nervous, but because that is actually the smarter thing to do. It improves your evasiveness. You don't do things lazily. You also don't really learn anything, you just fight. Unless you wear major protective equipment like most MMA/Muay Thai gyms do, you cant do full contact properly.

Don't know where I was going with this, but....whatever....:confused:

It's probably good to keep hte clavicle tiger claw in mind, and maybe practice it, but that's an application that doesn't really require that much subtlety. In a street fight, you've still got to be able to dodge and block w/o getting KO'd right off the bat, just so you can get in range to land that deadly clavicle grab--which, I'll admit, hurts like a mother-****er's mother, who is, by definition, getting ****ed. But it's a technique that doesn't take much skill---just good timing and a cool head. So what's the point drilling it to death in a form? None.

Better to get good at entry moves, closing gaps, and slipping punches.

Old Man
09-06-2009, 12:17 PM
......................................

kwaichang
09-06-2009, 02:51 PM
Men of the Dragon, after the movie I bought some large washers and ground them to a sharp edge it works pretty good I think it had Robert Ito in it as well KC

Old Man
09-06-2009, 04:47 PM
..........................................

kwaichang
09-07-2009, 04:57 PM
I looked it up on the web and you can actually buy that movie KC

tattooedmonk
09-14-2009, 06:46 PM
I know people say there's a use for every move in a form, but when people look for uses in things like bowing motions, and then show me some application for it, 9 times out of 10 I think---why in the hell would I ever do that?

But there's always something I will do in a form, every time, before I spar, or before I test, and that is.....well, bow.

Bowing is bowing. LOL....sure, you could come up with an application, but then, are you bowing? I bet most bowing applications would never work, but I'm pretty **** sure that if I do a 4-5 move bowing sequence correctly, it will always be a killer bowing sequence.;)

I don't think forms need that kind of dissection. Bows are martial by their "flavor", but if most bowing applications have hidden "rip off the head, and then just walk away like nothing ever happened" type applications, I think I should seriously consider my need to find a new martial art.If you are interested PM me your email address and I will send you a training manual for White Crane Karate / Kung Fu level 1 which comes from a Kenpo school.

It covers the opening/ closing of the bow, the apps and a stationary form ( San Chin Kata /San He Chien). pretty cool stuff.

I also found one on the Hua Tuo' s Five Animal Frolics with postures very similar to ours.

And last but not least I have a copy of Jiang Rong Chiao's Bagua Book

If anyone else is interested let me know.

On an added note, in Lam Sai Wing's Hung Gar manuals there are brief descriptions about the bow and how it is used for martial applications.

Very basic nothing fancy, very effective.

I use the basic Shaolin / Kung Fu bow ( right fist/ left palm.)

Easy application for this is grab/chop behind/ side of someone's neck/ head( left palm) and punch them in the face (right fist).:D

You can also use it to start a two handed choke defense.......

Yao Sing
09-19-2009, 07:09 PM
First post and it's on the SD thread. Not off to a good start there bud.

But welcome anyhow.

solo1
09-21-2009, 06:58 AM
Uncalled for.

On another note: my Master saw fit to promote me to Brown belt this weekend. what should i be looking for now?

solo1
09-21-2009, 11:14 AM
Welcome to the fold. Thanks for clarifying. We all practice differant arts but are very loyal to our own. SD gets a lot of abuse on these boards and I am not sure why but it really doesnt matter. Looking forward to reading more of your thoughts.

BoulderDawg
09-22-2009, 10:28 AM
Interesting story coming out of Denver/Boulder these days!


That's all I'm going to say!:eek:

tattooedmonk
09-22-2009, 11:00 AM
Interesting story coming out of Denver/Boulder these days!


That's all I'm going to say!:eek:you are not going to go there, are you??:eek::D:p;)

solo1
09-22-2009, 11:46 AM
Do tell....

MasterKiller
09-22-2009, 12:12 PM
Does it have anything to do with the photos of Ie I sent? I thought they were supposed to be shown to Sin The' this month for verification...

OldandUsed
09-22-2009, 12:14 PM
Okay, now you got me interested.

BoulderDawg
09-22-2009, 12:18 PM
Does it have anything to do with the photos of Ie I sent? I thought they were supposed to be shown to Sin The' this month for verification...


Not that I know of, but it is interesting that pics of Ie have surfaced.

goju
09-22-2009, 12:31 PM
hey guys:D:D:D:D:D

tattooedmonk
09-22-2009, 01:53 PM
Do tell....News travels fast!!

If it is what I think( KNOW) it is, he shouldnt bring it out in the open...........

But I would like to see the supposed pics og GGMIe.:)

tattooedmonk
09-22-2009, 01:54 PM
Like boulderdawg said ,:eek: thats all I gotta say!!!

BoulderDawg
09-22-2009, 02:09 PM
News travels fast!!

If it is what I think( KNOW) it is, he shouldnt bring it out in the open...........

But I would like to see the supposed pics og GGMIe.:)

I will say this, Something is going to happen this friday. If the Boulder Daily Camera reports on this I will provide a link to that story.

MasterKiller
09-22-2009, 06:45 PM
But I would like to see the supposed pics og GGMIe.:)

Quid pro quo, Clarice. Quid pro quo.

bodhi warrior
09-23-2009, 02:04 PM
Interesting story coming out of Denver/Boulder these days!


That's all I'm going to say!:eek:

If you aren't going to give any info then why post this in the first place?

BoulderDawg
09-23-2009, 04:49 PM
If you aren't going to give any info then why post this in the first place?

I never said that. I hope to be able to talk about it next week sometime. Believe me it's a story that needs to be talked about in the open.

shen ku
09-23-2009, 04:52 PM
thats just not right to start something like that and then not tell????

bodhi warrior
09-23-2009, 07:33 PM
I look forward to it. You definetly got our interest peaked.

Yao Sing
09-23-2009, 10:10 PM
Controversy? Concerning SD? Nah, couldn't be.

A Shaolin Temple discovered in Colorado with a hairy Monk picture carved into a rock maybe?

Will this news generate a few hundred more pages on this thread?

solo1
09-24-2009, 07:55 AM
Seriously bad form to drop a hint like that and not follow thru, have scoured the denver /boulder papers etc and have found nothing. Is it the Soards again? C'mon throw us a bone.

John Many Jars
09-24-2009, 03:07 PM
Not trying to steal anybodies thunder... but try doing a search on Bullshido.

goju
09-24-2009, 06:44 PM
ah just fookin say it it must not be that feckin interesting:D

sean_stonehart
09-24-2009, 08:10 PM
Not trying to steal anybodies thunder... but try doing a search on Bullshido.

Thought about that too when I saw the post, but I'm waiting for more info... :eek:

solo1
09-25-2009, 07:54 AM
So whats the word? been waiting and reading still no earth shaking news.

C'MON!!!

tattooedmonk
09-25-2009, 07:56 AM
Not trying to steal anybodies thunder... but try doing a search on Bullshido.Did you see anything on Bullshido about it??

tattooedmonk
09-25-2009, 07:57 AM
So whats the word? been waiting and reading still no earth shaking news.

C'MON!!!Be patient , Padiwan.:)

solo1
09-25-2009, 09:23 AM
Patient I will be young master. Enough!! whats going on?

John Many Jars
09-25-2009, 10:11 AM
Did you see anything on Bullshido about it??

If this is what everybody is talking about it was brought up a few months ago in the SD thread. Starts towards the bottom.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27115&page=28&highlight=chinese+shaolin+center

goju
09-25-2009, 10:44 AM
ha ha ha wow yeah i was wrong about the soards allright!

MasterKiller
09-25-2009, 10:57 AM
So David Soard pleaded guilty to one count of harrasment? That's the announcement?

goju
09-25-2009, 11:33 AM
^ its so shocking right like the most devastating moment in american history! lol!:D

shen ku
09-25-2009, 01:17 PM
ok, please tell me this is not the big news...??? i mean it is a bad thing but anyone can be accused...at any time.. if he did it well then he pays the price but really is this what we wish to spend our time talking about...........oh wait i forgot based on current television shows i guess it is what people what to hear and see........ trash....

kwaichang
09-25-2009, 02:16 PM
So there is a guy who is sexually inappropriate, so what if it were known there is one in every style probably. This proves or disproves nothing abbout SD except that an organisation that big is going to have weird people in it. KC

goju
09-25-2009, 02:37 PM
i guess david was using the ole shaolin tiger gropes the fawn technique they teach at the black belt level huh ahahahahahahhahahahaha:D:D

Judge Pen
09-25-2009, 02:39 PM
This is unfortunate. The way our legal system is set up, no one but the people actually involved will know the truth and the rest of us will construct an opinon that fits in with our individual biases or persepctives. It may be true or false, worse or overblown. He may have pled to prevent more from being known or because it puts an end to an ordeal without more scrutiny (I've known people to plead guilty to something they didn't do because they didn't want to go through a trial or risk even more punishment) or because he is guilty as hell of much more and he doesn't want that to come to light (I've seen this in my practice too).

Bad stuff anyway you look at it.

goju
09-25-2009, 02:47 PM
nah david has a moustache every one knows all molestors have that:D:eek:

BoulderDawg
09-25-2009, 11:24 PM
As promised:

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/ci_13423591#

David's behavior was bad but almost as bad was the way the Soards went about trying to cover this up and the way they dealt with students who spoke out against them.

You might be wondering what GM The' thinks about this........so do a lot of people. His silence speaks volumes.

tattooedmonk
09-25-2009, 11:27 PM
yeah.. I already saw it... its a crying shame. I have known about this for quite sometime , just never thought it was going to come out like this.

goju
09-25-2009, 11:54 PM
:D:D:D:D:D

thats all i gotta say

Judge Pen
09-26-2009, 04:19 AM
:D:D:D:D:D

thats all i gotta say

You're happy that someone was harrassed? Speaks volumes of your character...

kwaichang
09-26-2009, 04:56 AM
Goju is just happy it was a SD practitioner and that way he can say it shows that SD is not the real deal or reputable. Although this has nothing to do with SD as an art anyway, just one person in it. KC

Old Man
09-26-2009, 05:28 AM
.......................................

kwaichang
09-26-2009, 08:38 AM
You are assuming he knew about it?? KC No way to know if he knew before or after the fact. KC

goju
09-26-2009, 10:43 AM
You're happy that someone was harrassed? Speaks volumes of your character...

:Dno im amused that karma came around the corner with a fying side kick to mr soard:D

kwaichang
09-26-2009, 11:25 AM
What did M Soard do to you Goju you sure seem to have a big chip on your shoulder KC

goju
09-26-2009, 12:22 PM
made me waste my money and didnt provide any useful training:D

Tao Of The Fist
09-26-2009, 12:43 PM
I used to be a member of the Chinese Shaolin Center in Vegas, and I am appalled to say the least. I can't say for sure that he is or isn't capable of sexual assault (I have only met him 5 times during seminars), but he always seemed like a genuinely nice guy. Unfortunately, it does beg the question of the morals of the art through one of it's highest ranking members, I regret to say.

However, like a few of you have been saying, it doesn't really speak for the art itself. I've trained in SD and out of SD (Bak Siu Lum, Liang style bagua, etc.), so I'm going to try to be as impartial as possible...I will say this though, there are things in the system that aren't exclusive to shaolin-do (for those who say that SD makes up everything). For some of these things, there are misnomers, but SD isn't the only group to do the same thing.

The Classical Bagua, for example, is reffered to as "Dong Hai Chuan's original form". This, of course, is actually Jiang style bagua, but many schools call it the 'original form'. Sifu Jerry Allan Johnson is one of those. Mr. Johnson has of course, is known for translating several of the classical texts into English.

The Classical Temple Tai Chi is actually Cheng Man Ching's 37 (or 70 something if counted classically). Again, they aren't the only one who do so. Waysun Liao, who also put out a book on the classical texts (of tai chi) has reffered to the form by the same name.

kwaichang
09-26-2009, 02:32 PM
One doesnt have to be impartial at all. The fact that M Soard did something wrong has nothing to do with GMT or SD. That is like saying an employee is a rapist so the President of the company must be one as well. It is as I have seen the Three different sections West , South East and Tennessee , Texas and Lexington/ Ky are not going to be able to hold it togethor. People have little dedication and want to branch off and do their own thing.. This is just an unlawful example . KC

Tao Of The Fist
09-26-2009, 03:01 PM
I meant impartial about the art, not the people. I'm well aware of that fact, but I like the analogy. I don't think that because one of their members did something wrong that they should shun them. If that were true, then should you not shun Grandmaster Ie, who was supposed to have killed 11 men to protect his own life? or Grandmaster Su, who was supposed to have killed an assassin hiding in the rafters? While this is markedly different, the point still remains.

One student
09-26-2009, 06:57 PM
You're happy that someone was harrassed? Speaks volumes of your character...

I think JP, KC, others with professional backgrounds will understand this and also back me up.

There are two sources for personal ethics. One is what is written saying we can't do or we get in trouble. The second is what is in one's heart. That is "character."

As JP kniows, in many states "sexual battery" is what happens when one is in a position of power, control, or influence, uses it for sexual reasons. They might say "consent," but when the playing field is not level, how do you know? That, and one's character, is why medical professiionals shouldn't have sexual relationships with their patients; lawyers with their clients; guards/police with prisoners; adults with minors; coaches with players; and teachers with students. Its why you don't "take advantage" of someone under the influence, on drugs, unconscious, or mentally disabled.

The good, or "ethical" ones, would refrain even if it wasn't a written law.

But there are no such written laws for martial arts instructors. It is only the character that is in their heart. I suspect this prosecutor had a good feel for the relationship of a sincere martial arts student for their "master," and appropriately likened it to the above examples, but reaized it might be a hard sell to a jury who does not understand all this "bushido" or "martial ethics." ("Just 'cause he tells you to do 100 pushups or hold a stance for 5 minutes, doesn't mean you should also do . . . "). And it looks like D.S. didn't understand, either. He's not the first martial arts instructor, master or otherwise, I've seen do the same thing: casually hit on a female student outside of class. To some people, in the crudest terms "getting some" -- whether it is money or sex -- is too important, and "ethics" just gets in the way.

Just like I've always thought martial arts was for something higher, I've also thought, if your Master tells you, wear this uniform, call the art this name, practice this way, you don't say, "No, I'm going to do it my way." That is also why the "master" doesn't try to take advantage. There were many days and hours I, and others, would help GMS outside of class, doing work around the school, sometimes long hours and hard labor. But it served a purpose and as far as I was concerned was a return of respect, and I don't regret a minute of it. But there is a line and D.S. apparently crossed it. Which maybe is a character trait also evidenced in other ways.

Is martial arts just about fighting? Just about making money? Just another opportunity to get laid? I never thought so, but obviously others do.

Just my two cents. I could be wrong. But I don't think so.

BoulderDawg
09-26-2009, 08:00 PM
Personally I have no problem at all with David nailing every female in the school.

The problem was that some of them said "no" but he continued anyway. Also, had it been handled differently I don't think we would be where we are now. Richard Nixon could tell you what happens when you have too much power.

It's a sad situation and apparently the Soards are going to keep the school opened as if nothing has happened. I'm really interested to see how that goes. Most lower belts did not know what was going on but I have a felling they do now. Also, I really can't see anyone wanting to join the school anytime soon.

In any case, if they want to keep the school open and can find people fool enough to train under them then I say go for it! :D

kwaichang
09-27-2009, 06:15 AM
This is why if I teach I do not teach children under 13 yrs of age and only if a parent watches the class while they are in it. too much BS about kids and women etc to take a chance KC Sad isnt it that we have to think this way!!

BoulderDawg
09-27-2009, 09:26 AM
Just being fair and accurate, I don't believe Soard was ever accused of making any advances towards an underage girl.

I think he was really more interested in the power and control than anything else. It turned him on to have power over a 2nd/3rd degree black belt like that.

tattooedmonk
09-27-2009, 01:29 PM
Just being fair and accurate, I don't believe Soard was ever accused of making any advances towards an underage girl.

I think he was really more interested in the power and control than anything else. It turned him on to have power over a 2nd/3rd degree black belt like that.You see this is where I have an issue, how do you know what was going through his mind and what he was feeling??? Everyone know and understand should understand that there are certain chemical and energetical type exchanges that happen when you get that close to someone......Sometimes the lines get blurry and sometime they seem to not exist.

You know some people that are sick or do the wrong things are not aware or know that they are sick or did something wrong. I am not saying that being ignorant or stupid is an aceptable defense but obviously there is more to this story than what is being posted in the papers and the web boards......

Its not just black and white.....


I am not defending his or anyone else's action , I just want to know all the facts first before I develope some type of opinion.

BoulderDawg
09-27-2009, 01:49 PM
How is anybody suppose to know without crawling into his head?

All we can go by is his behavior and reactions. It's obvious from his statements in court and other places David thinks he has done nothing wrong....So what? I'm not willing to cut him slack just because he thinks he's innocent.

Also there is the fact that the Soards and The', for that matter, have handled the situation with an iron fist when it came to dealing with students who felt this was wrong.

taai gihk yahn
09-27-2009, 02:36 PM
So there is a guy who is sexually inappropriate, so what if it were known there is one in every style probably. This proves or disproves nothing abbout SD except that an organisation that big is going to have weird people in it. KC

except that the guy is a SENIOR grand-high muckaty-muck of the "system", who is supposed to EMBODY the high-fallutin' moral principles (you know, those pesky Shaolin Buddhist precepts) taught by the "style", and becaquse of his position should be held to a particularly high standard and set an EXAMPLE for the thousands of students under him (no pun intended); it also speaks volumes about GM The, who has had a long-standing, close relationship with Soard, and who either a) didn't know about this, meaning that he is a TERRIBLE judge of his senior disciple's character or b) did know about it and didn't say anything and then is just a TERRIBLE human being in general (given his propensity at selling BS in general, my vote is a on b), btw);

either way, it speaks volumes about the general cult-like ethos permeating SD; the fact that people on here are trying to mince words and split hairs about what happened, talking about his mindset or some other BS like that, is just kool-aid fueled damage control;

kwaichang
09-27-2009, 02:42 PM
Taai , there isnt any philosophy taught in SD from what I have seen. The teachers leave that to the person themselves. Senior or beginner what happened if indeed it did is wrong. I see the same thing occuring in MMA when one is given a weapon without the proper philosophy to guide it , they are just creating a monster. The fact that this guy is a EM in SD has nothing to do with Moral teaching. That is not what is taught in SD. Therefore GMT cannot be held accountable for what a student does. KC

taai gihk yahn
09-27-2009, 02:54 PM
Therefore GMT cannot be held accountable for what a student does. KC
LOL - and so one just flushes whatever aspects of traditional CMA down the toilet when it is no longer convenient, eh? lol, how pathetic you and all your SD mouthpieces are - you moan and cry about how authentic and traditional your training is, how pure and unadulterated the system is, how legitimate and connected to Shaolin it is - and yet you don't know the FIRST thing about how a traditional sifu /student relationship is constructed - you realize that, as his sifu, GM The is DIRECTLY responsible, according to TRADITIONAL CMA mores, for what his student does when acting as his representative (or really in ANY capacity, if he has taken him as a disciple); meaning that Soard's actions reflect DIRECTLY on his sifu, his sifu is considered just as accountable if not more so!

you and all your ilk are just idiots

goju
09-27-2009, 03:13 PM
Ahahahahahahhahahahaahhahahahahaaha:d
beautiful post taai:d:d

taai gihk yahn
09-27-2009, 03:20 PM
You see this is where I have an issue, how do you know what was going through his mind and what he was feeling??? Everyone know and understand should understand that there are certain chemical and energetical type exchanges that happen when you get that close to someone......Sometimes the lines get blurry and sometime they seem to not exist.
BS and that's just a pathetic attempt to try and excuse this sort of thing, for which there is no excuse, regardless of whatever phermonal or chakratic interactions may occur - I am a licensed PT in NYS, and have manually treated numerous attractive and necesarilly scantily-clad females; was there something "chemical" and "energetic" that occurred? you bet there was! did any of them ever give me very strong indication that it would be ok to do something of a non-professional sort? yes; but did I EVER do anything inappropriate or unethical? NEVER; why not? because I am a professional, and as a professional, I understand that the power dynamic of a therapist / patient relationship is fundamentally innappropriate to transfer into a personal one; and likewise, exactly the same with a student / teacher relationship; Soard is a MA professional; whether or not there are any legal statues governing that or not, it is still his sole responsibility as a professional to know the line clearly, to unequivocally stay on his side of it, and, if necessary re-draw the line for a student if they try to cross it; if the line is "blurry", it's because he CHOOSES to see it as such and then CHOOSES to keep it that way; end of story, chemistry is no excuse;


You know some people that are sick or do the wrong things are not aware or know that they are sick or did something wrong. I am not saying that being ignorant or stupid is an aceptable defense but obviously there is more to this story than what is being posted in the papers and the web boards......
in your mind, maybe; stop trying to be an apologist for what is obviously a clear-cut case of on-going, long-term inappropriate behavior;


Its not just black and white.....
yes it is - you just wish it wasn't


I am not defending his or anyone else's action , I just want to know all the facts first before I develope some type of opinion.
the only fact you need to know is those brought out in the court decision; he was guilty, pure and simple - there are no "facts" that will serve to ameliorate his actions, because in his position he should be beyond suspicion;

taai gihk yahn
09-27-2009, 05:01 PM
just to show what an even BIGGER idiot you are, you claim that:

Taai , there isnt any philosophy taught in SD from what I have seen.
and

he fact that this guy is a EM in SD has nothing to do with Moral teaching. That is not what is taught in SD.

well then, how do you explain THIS?


GrandMaster ie Chang Ming’s Rules of Life

Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming’s Rules
for Shaolin-Do

Obey the rules of society.
Demonstrate excellent martial art spirit.
Respect elders and honor friends.
Be kind and love others.
Show good faith to others and keep their trust.
Support the weak and aid the needy.
Demonstrate good conduct and excellent learning spirit.
Cultivate the body and nourish the spirit.
Be disciplined, be generous, be honest, be loyal and give forgiveness.
Be alert, be wise, be open minded and be patient.

I am proud to say that Grandmaster Sin is a living example of these rules and is a constant source of inspiration. These are positive, life-affirming rules and will stand up to anything you will ever read in a “self-help” book.

(bold added by me for emphasis)

this, BTW, was posted here (http://www.austinkungfu.com/gmie_rules.asp), on the Austin SD website! is it me, or are they refeerencing a DIFFERENT Ie Chang Ming? or is it that, the rules apply differently to different SD schools, just like the forms are all "a little different"? :rolleyes:

case closed, you are a total moron who doesn't even know the contents of your own style, Soard has clearly violated the precepts handed down by his style's Great High Googley-Goo Grand Master, and The is a hypocrite if he doesn't unequivocally disown him;

SD is just BS, fraudulent and pathetic;

any questions? didn't think so; next!

goju
09-27-2009, 05:34 PM
not a good day for sd at all

kwaichang
09-27-2009, 05:51 PM
So Taai being a PT if you are, then you must have been a CI at some time. Have any of your students ever done anything wrong? If so you should turn in your license and stop practicing PT if you are responsible. Of course you wouldnt do that because you have complete control over what all your students do.
I am aware of the rules you printed , but that is not Morals they are a philosophical attitude. There is a difference. BTW now I think I know who you are and am ashamed to say I too am a Therapist and it saddens me that you have so little empathy for a fellow MA whether you care for their system or not. KC

goju
09-27-2009, 05:54 PM
oh yeah let sympathize with a guy who made innapropriate sexual advances on women that were unwelcomed


**** david soards like a modern day rosa parks!:D

kungfujunky
09-27-2009, 05:59 PM
taai gihk yahn

I would appreciate your comments more if there were less venom behind them.

This is a discussion about a very flammable topic. While I do not agree with what has happened in Denver/Boulder that does not mean I will resort to name calling and bald faced flaming.

He was found guilty. I for one am not a licensed therapist nor have I examined MDS.

My opinion is based on my moral attitude towards this type of behavior.

It would be great if the others here involved in the discussion could leave their egos at the door and attempt to discuss this from a more level headed viewpoint.

He made a huge mistake (more than once it seems)

I dont agree with that behavior nor how it was responded to.

At the end of the day though, I still love this art. I WILL find a way to continue to train in it.

JP maybe I can move in? LOL

BoulderDawg
09-27-2009, 06:18 PM
Honestly, this should not have been that much of a big deal. Take all the lofty titles and ideals away and what you are left with a an uneducated hick from backwoods Kentucky. Does it surprise anyone that he would act this way.

What surprises and offends me is the way this was handled (and is still being handled) by Sin The'. When the first charges were made in Colorado Springs Sin should have immediately suspended David and investigated the matter himself. None of this was done and now it has led to more charges and convictions in Boulder. Yet Sin continues to support Soard...I don't get it. Does he pay him that much money or is Soard really running the show?

One student
09-27-2009, 06:25 PM
The quotes Taai repeated were taught to me by my 1st SD instructor, and others since. It was taken seriously. But he was not perfect. Neither am I. That doesn't change what one may aspire to do and be. What happened to DS, or more accurately what he alledgedly did, even what he reportedly admitted he did, shows what is wrong with him, as a person and a martial arts teacher, if it is true. If it is true, no one can dispute it is wrong from an ethics point of view, and wrong in the sense of traditional martial arts. More wrong, than declaring one's own uniform, school name, and methods, as opposed to one's own master's instruction. That is all on him. If true, he shows himself to be either:1) one who doesn't see the pursuit of a sexual relationship by a master/teacher with a martial arts student, as wrong; 2) he does know it was wrong, but did it anyway; or 3) he doesn't read the Creeds as barring pursuit of such a relationship. Hypocrite and charlatan, maybe. Unethical, in my opinion, definitely. We know there are martial arts instructors who think it is nothing more than teaching the form, how to fight, and that is it. Its not different than a driving instructor. There is no "relationship" beyond regurgitating facts. That doesn't make it right, just makes it what he made it to be.

What it shows about SD, in general, is that it also, as do all walks of life, have its bad apples. I would modify Taai's statement, that "SD is BS, fraudulent, and pathetic," to, "Some SD people are" all of that. In the old days, the GM of the style, system, school, temple, might indeed throw the person out, stop teaching them, and the person would find another school or teacher, if possible. And if further insult were made, or dishonor brought, someone might handle it more directly. You know: "You have offended my family, and you have offended the Shaolin Temple." And then fight it out. Cannot happen here now today.

Today, what can anyone do? The S's aleady declared themselves somewhat outside of GMS's control when they created CSC, didn't they? Many say that was wrong, too. And if GMS did something to disown DS, that's the same as disowning CSC, isn't it? And they would go on, and just not get continued forms and instruction from GMS. But he didn't do it then, and there was a reason for that, which may or may not be a good reason. That is up to him. If he doesn't, it means he is permissive in areas and ways some wish he weren't, but that is true with many of the breakaway factions he has continued to associate with. Only he knows for sure why, and anyone who doesn't think those reasons could be benevolent, or could be less, is also wrong.

But it must be true, that if people are in SD to be part of a monastic life, then their teacher better be of that mind, or they better learn what they can in class and practice the rest in their own time. They are wrong to think that is what they are going to get. They are going to get, at a minimum, instruction in forms and methods of martial arts, from the perspective of GMS, and we all know the debate on that. They are going to also get exposure to a philosophy, some rules for living one's life, as to fitness, diet, mentality, yes, but only to the extent their own teacher preaches that. Some do, some don't. Anyone who comes into SD, or stays with SD, thinking anything else, or thinking every instructor's method, from GMS down is the same everywhere, is wrong.

But that is a minimum. Any student can take that minimum, and do more with it. Doing so is up to them. They better not depend on the System to make them do it. That is not, in modern times, what it does.

SD is what it is. But it is also what an individual makes of it, on their own, some to good, some not. To some that is okay. To others it never will be.

kwaichang
09-27-2009, 06:51 PM
I am not saying to sympathise with DS I am saying that Taai is too harsh if in fact he is a Therapist he should be filled with Empathy for the people he serves. Not down grading for what they do, or whom they are associated with. I know for a fact in another school that another teacher was charged for the same type of thing. He is in jail for it. DS was found guilty of a lesser charge that is the system , it isnt always right but that is the way it is. Many of you talk about how they should be kicked out and stripped of rank. Those same people talk of the martial creeds and morals and ethics. Then why would you abandon someone when they need you most. He is getting Psychological treatment, at this time everyone abandoning him is the last thing DS needs. He needs help not harrassment. pardon the pun. I am ashamed of all these so called MA that are ready to throw someone to the wolves just because of personal feelings about , in this case , SD. KC

kwaichang
09-27-2009, 06:53 PM
BTW non of us really know what was done by GMS . now do we. its all speculation. KC

BoulderDawg
09-27-2009, 07:23 PM
I DS was found guilty of a lesser charge that is the system , it isnt always right but that is the way it is. Many of you talk about how they should be kicked out and stripped of rank. Those same people talk of the martial creeds and morals and ethics. Then why would you abandon someone when they need you most. He is getting Psychological treatment, at this time everyone abandoning him is the last thing DS needs. He needs help not harrassment. pardon the pun. I am ashamed of all these so called MA that are ready to throw someone to the wolves just because of personal feelings about , in this case , SD. KC

The incident that led to these charges happened three and a half years ago. In all this time there have been a number of students begging Master David to admit to his crimes and to get help. I don't know the exact number of student who have been kicked out of the Schools by the Soards over this but I think you would need more than one hand to count them all.

Students at the school have attempted to stand with him but the price for that (Blind loyality) is just too high.

By the way, the truth is if the man doesn't believe he's done anything wrong then all the psychological treatment and counseling in the world is not going to change him.

BoulderDawg
09-27-2009, 07:27 PM
BTW non of us really know what was done by GMS . now do we. its all speculation. KC

But we do know what he's NOT done

taai gihk yahn
09-27-2009, 07:41 PM
So Taai being a PT if you are, then you must have been a CI at some time. Have any of your students ever done anything wrong? If so you should turn in your license and stop practicing PT if you are responsible. Of course you wouldnt do that because you have complete control over what all your students do.
first off, it's all a non sequitor - and your attempt at personalizing it and creating a straw man hypothetical is not only predictable, it is sad; second, your argument is not only not analogous, it is completely faulty: if a student did something wrong under my direct supervision (which has never happened), if there were negligence on my part (e.g. - lack of appropriate supervision leading to the error), I would be accountable, with all the ramifications thereupon; however, once that student leaves my direct supervision, the accountability for actions thereafter are not on me, it is on their own license; and, derrr, the profession of PT is not based on the precepts of traditional CMA, whereas SD, being ostensibly a TCMA (:rolleyes:) is - so again, the analogy is faulty;


I am aware of the rules you printed , but that is not Morals they are a philosophical attitude. There is a difference.
lol; you have no ability to reason intelligently; those rues are not an "attitude" - they are behavioral guidelines, basically telling you how to act and not act; you may not think that they constitute a moral code, but then again you reason like a mad parrot and you write with all the eloquence of a plate of beans attempting to negotiate its way out of a cow's digestive system...


BTW now I think I know who you are
good lord, it took you long enough, the fact notwithstanding that I already told you who I was!


and am ashamed to say I too am a Therapist
not half as ashamed as I am that you are one


and it saddens me that you have so little empathy for a fellow MA whether you care for their system or not. KC
romantic claptrap; where is it written that one has any responsibility towards or should care about another MAist simply by virtue that they are another MAist? that's just stupid, and unfortunately this silly belief has permeated the community - although it's usually the people doing the questionable stuff that put this out there as opposed to those who do something valid; and if I think what you do is crap, why would I have respect for you as an individual given that you choose to do what you do? and why would you even care? personally I never expect another MAist to suspend their critical judgement of what I do out of some BS "code" of mock deference; anyway, enjoy being sad;

taai gihk yahn
09-27-2009, 07:52 PM
taai gihk yahn
I would appreciate your comments more if there were less venom behind them.
I doubt that - the fact that you read into them that way is indicative that you are looking for a reason to dismiss them as opposed to taking them on their own merit, regardless of the "tone" of the person saying them


This is a discussion about a very flammable topic. While I do not agree with what has happened in Denver/Boulder that does not mean I will resort to name calling and bald faced flaming.
truth is truth no matter how it's stated;


He was found guilty. I for one am not a licensed therapist nor have I examined MDS.
:confused:what does that have to do w/anything?


My opinion is based on my moral attitude towards this type of behavior.
and that attitude is?


It would be great if the others here involved in the discussion could leave their egos at the door and attempt to discuss this from a more level headed viewpoint.
being levelheaded would preclude the ridiculous apologist behavior demonstrated by the SD'ers here who are scrambling to find any way to justify the whole thing;


He made a huge mistake (more than once it seems)
I dont agree with that behavior nor how it was responded to.
At the end of the day though, I still love this art. I WILL find a way to continue to train in it.
that's awesome and good for you; doesn't change the truth about what obviously goes on at the top of the SD pyramid

goju
09-27-2009, 08:07 PM
i witness the horrors of david soards school myself!
his smelly feet permeating the air in the kwoon!
his constant babble about his favourite martial art movies!
his bad mouthing other masters every start of class!

and worst of all watching him try to throw a side kick!!!!!


.... THE HORROR!!!!........:eek::eek:

taai gihk yahn
09-27-2009, 08:23 PM
I am not saying to sympathise with DS I am saying that Taai is too harsh if in fact he is a Therapist he should be filled with Empathy for the people he serves.
:confused::confused::confused:are you mentally deficient? what are you talking about? whether I have empathy for the people I "serve" has nothing to do w/what we are talking about; are you drunk?


Not down grading for what they do, or whom they are associated with. I know for a fact in another school that another teacher was charged for the same type of thing. He is in jail for it. DS was found guilty of a lesser charge that is the system , it isnt always right but that is the way it is. Many of you talk about how they should be kicked out and stripped of rank. Those same people talk of the martial creeds and morals and ethics. Then why would you abandon someone when they need you most. He is getting Psychological treatment, at this time everyone abandoning him is the last thing DS needs. He needs help not harrassment. pardon the pun. I am ashamed of all these so called MA that are ready to throw someone to the wolves just because of personal feelings about , in this case , SD. KC
oh please - someone call a waambulance; let's see - the man behaves in an ethically repugnant manner completely inconsistent with the position he holds, and now he is entitled to empathy and consideration? puhleeze;



BTW non of us really know what was done by GMS . now do we. its all speculation. KC
as BD says, we know what was NOT done;

bawang
09-27-2009, 11:12 PM
i dont understand why ppl want to argue on and on loll

shaolin + do + japanese funeral cloth = fake
shaolin do is fake

tattooedmonk
09-27-2009, 11:25 PM
BS and that's just a pathetic attempt to try and excuse this sort of thing, for which there is no excuse, regardless of whatever phermonal or chakratic interactions may occur - I am a licensed PT in NYS, and have manually treated numerous attractive and necesarilly scantily-clad females; was there something "chemical" and "energetic" that occurred? you bet there was! did any of them ever give me very strong indication that it would be ok to do something of a non-professional sort? yes; but did I EVER do anything inappropriate or unethical? NEVER; why not? because I am a professional, and as a professional, I understand that the power dynamic of a therapist / patient relationship is fundamentally innappropriate to transfer into a personal one; and likewise, exactly the same with a student / teacher relationship; Soard is a MA professional; whether or not there are any legal statues governing that or not, it is still his sole responsibility as a professional to know the line clearly, to unequivocally stay on his side of it, and, if necessary re-draw the line for a student if they try to cross it; if the line is "blurry", it's because he CHOOSES to see it as such and then CHOOSES to keep it that way; end of story, chemistry is no excuse;


in your mind, maybe; stop trying to be an apologist for what is obviously a clear-cut case of on-going, long-term inappropriate behavior;


yes it is - you just wish it wasn't


the only fact you need to know is those brought out in the court decision; he was guilty, pure and simple - there are no "facts" that will serve to ameliorate his actions, because in his position he should be beyond suspicion;Hey buddy, I am not trying to excuse anything .....

What I am trying to say is, if someone is mentally sick, emotionally weak, morally challenged , etc. they might not realize they are sick, did you think of that there doc??

He might be in denile about the incidences but that could be part of the sickness, couldnt it??

If these things were going on for a long time and he didnt realize that it was inappropriate, could this also be part of the sickness??

What about childhood issues or self esteem or self confidence issues . If he had any of these things do you think he could have done what he did because of it ?

Would that lead you to believe that he might be sick???

Chemicals and energy are everything and make up a great deal of how scientist, doctors and therapist help people that have sickness, illnesses and diseases recover or manage their specific issues.

As for yourself, I would expect someone with your supposed backround to be more understanding , compassionate and open-minded about such things.

And if he is so guilty and beyond correction, rehabilitation, treatment , or forgiveness, how come he was allowed to plead to the least of all the charges and is allowed to walk free???

goju
09-27-2009, 11:35 PM
oh bull****
yeah david sick he suffers from a severe case of gropingitis lol!
we shoud really feel sorry for him Actually poor guy he doesnt deserve this at all:D

BoulderDawg
09-27-2009, 11:37 PM
What I am trying to say is, if someone is mentally sick, emotionally weak, morally challenged , etc. they might not realize they are sick, did you think of that there doc??

He might be in denile about the incidences but that could be part of the sickness, couldnt it??

If these things were going on for a long time and he didnt realize that it was inappropriate, could this also be part of the sickness??

What about childhood issues or self esteem or self confidence issues . If he had any of these things do you think he could have done what he did because of it ?

Would that lead you to believe that he might be sick???

So? If he kills someone aren't they just as dead?

BoulderDawg
09-27-2009, 11:39 PM
So if I go out and just start humpin the first hot girl I see can I just yell out "No, No it's okay...I'm sick!":D

goju
09-28-2009, 12:04 AM
"yes thats my s chlong on your leg under the table madam but its okay im CAAAAAAAAAAAAAARAZAAAAAAAAY!!!:D

goju
09-28-2009, 12:14 AM
Aw this made me think of david when i saw it

kwaichang
09-28-2009, 05:27 AM
You guys are the most opinionated people I have ever read.
Taai , you must be senile I never knew who you were until I read your post about being a therapist. Then I put 2 and 2 togethor. I must have angered you about Ross.? That is why I am amazed , as you and I had a decent dialogue on our PM's. About PT. But that aside I choose not to get too descriptive with my writing on here so as to keep from alienating people. I dont want to come off as a conceited twit. Yes , the analogy does apply and how do you know that a student of yours did nothing wrong, you dont have to be in the room all the time, you yourself admitted to having thought about patients who were scantily clad etc,. BTW didnt they teach you draping in school? Just a thought when I read your post.
Back on the subject. What DS did was wrong , I feel his schools should be taken away, I dont agree with what has happened in the judicial system and I feel more should be done. No excuses. However, you guys are just using this to condemn SD not the person who diid the deed. That is ludicrous, but when the rules apply to you , you balk. Then you say that doesnt apply. KC

taai gihk yahn
09-28-2009, 06:45 AM
You guys are the most opinionated people I have ever read.
Taai , you must be senile I never knew who you were until I read your post about being a therapist. Then I put 2 and 2 togethor.
and I shudder at what number that gets you in your world...


I must have angered you about Ross.? That is why I am amazed , as you and I had a decent dialogue on our PM's. About PT. But that aside I choose not to get too descriptive with my writing on here so as to keep from alienating people. I dont want to come off as a conceited twit.
no, you don't, but you do manage nicely to come off as a raving lunatic though


Yes , the analogy does apply
no it doesn't and if you think it does than you capacity for critical analysis is woefully inadequate;


and how do you know that a student of yours did nothing wrong, you dont have to be in the room all the time,
because, moron, I have never had a student treat a patient without me being in the room; ever; maybe you think letting a student treat without constant direct supervision is "educational", I do not;



you yourself admitted to having thought about patients who were scantily clad etc,.
are you retarded? you must be if you read my original post and then try to turn it into some sort of admission of inappropriate thoughts?; try to follow, I know it's hard for you: if one is treating an attractive woman (or man, if such is one's preference), one would have to be an idiot to deny that one can be affected by scent, what one sees, etc.; however, it can end there, if one is trained to simply notice this response and then choose to move past it - it's actually applied Ch'an - one has awareness of the immediate situation, but does not become entangled or act inappropriately; so having "thoughts about" would imply one is no longer present in the moment, but rather focused elsewhere, in fantasy, which would be not only wrong, but would impede one's ability to do the work that one is there to do; BTW, this usually happens early on in one's career - as one becomes more experienced, it's increasingly easier to maintain distance; OTOH, Soard obviously did not engage in this sort of detachment, he ran headlong into it;



BTW didnt they teach you draping in school? Just a thought when I read your post.
yes, duh; but if you know anything about real osteopathic treatment, when you work with a patient, draping is neither feasible nor possible, and not a single PT or DO I have ever learned from does it; as far as actual choice of garments, it also depends on the patient: I have had some people who wanted to always wear a t-shirt and sweats, and others who come in and strip down practically naked before I have said anything; my personal perspective is that as long as there is no inappropriate action on their part, patients can wear as much or as little as they want; sometimes, for some of them I wish they would cover up more, LOL, but that's as may be - I treat anyone who comes under their own terms as much as is possible without judgement;



Back on the subject. What DS did was wrong , I feel his schools should be taken away, I dont agree with what has happened in the judicial system and I feel more should be done. No excuses. However, you guys are just using this to condemn SD not the person who diid the deed. That is ludicrous, but when the rules apply to you , you balk. Then you say that doesnt apply. KC
:confused: what are you talking about? are you drunk again? have you been randomly dialing numbers at the IRS looking for you "friend" again?

solo1
09-28-2009, 07:46 AM
He needs to resign. He needs to be quiet and humble and resign. This is not business as usual. Dont we all as martial artists no matter what system or where we are in our schooling believe we represent a higher calling? and isnt it manifested in our behavior both public and private? I feel horrible for his family and mostly his students but the right thing to do is to leave, now. He can sell the schools if need be but his departure must be fast and unequivical.

Mas Judt
09-28-2009, 08:31 AM
I'm too busy to play on the boards and this is the best you guys can do?

The actions of this Soard fellow does not really indict the SD group. That's stupid and uncalled for. As far as Sin The' 'taking action' - what exactly is he expected to do? He's just a MA guy. He's not the feudal lord of the SD empire. I suppose if he was certain he could have kicked the guy out - but really, it's the cops job.

SD is SD. It is a hybrid MA - some Chinese and some JMA. My research shows it mostly CMA in Indonesia. There is a *unique* system buried in it. Typical of, well 'central' Chinese methods. This is not a value judgement, just an observation.

Stories about being the 'true' Shaolin, or 'real martial arts don't exist in China anymore' are common in Malaysia and Indonesia. Big Chinese diasporia - cut off for a while because of war and madness in the homeland. I'm not surprised The' believes this. I'm just surprised he hasn't figured out that much of his history is certainly fable.

SD runs into trouble with it's 'we teach every style' approach - as folks who do the individual styles often find them lacking.

The SD system is related to a silat system that is essentially the GM Ie material renamed.

In the past, I ribbed these guys pretty hard - largely because of the 'goofy' variants of known systems, and the incredibly unimpressive stuff I once saw at a Las Vegas Shaolin Do school. (My buddy Brian was apoplectic that they even called it Chinese Martial Arts.) - although he did not know that mixing JMA and CMA was common with some schools in Indonesia*. Although there ARE CMA methods that resemble Karate a great deal, and watching Sin The' move, he has a peculiar power method that is rather distinct from Karate.

However, I won't judge everybody by a few encounters. I am certain it is NOT the 'original Shaolin' blah, blah, blah - EVERYBODY virtually thinks they are in the Nusantra. But neither are they the complete devil - there are plenty of 'legit' CMA schools that offer just as wide ranging and rather thin offering. And there are plenty of schools that are far, far worse that are so-called 'real.'

Not my cup of tea, but not total crap like say, www.oomyungdoe.com

(Although the history is certainly as incorrect.)

*read Don Dreagers excellent 'Weapons and Fighting Arts of the Indonesian Archipelago" for more detail. As well as the writings of Dr. Phillip Davies.

tattooedmonk
09-28-2009, 09:26 AM
So? If he kills someone aren't they just as dead?...... if he is guilty by reason of insanity he will go to a hospital and maybe get out in a few years, if he is just plain guilty he goes to prison and /or put to death. or maybe gets out in more than a few years.

Hey bro . I am behind you 100% as well as anyone else that feels wronged, angry , sad, unhappy and outraged by this developement but I am avoiding getting emotionally caught up in it so that we can discuss this in a logical, rational and mature manner.

Did he RAPE any of these women???
If he did that is another story all together......

If what is described in the court case happened then he should be able to get counseling, do his probation as well as stand down from his postion. He needs to be given a chance to pay his debt to society and move on with his life.

goju
09-28-2009, 09:29 AM
sd does not resemble karate in the least just because its stiff in awkward doesnt make it karate:D
if anyones watched a proper karate demonstration its looks almost exactly like southern kung fu after all thats where karate came from
just as sd doesnt resemble silat either

BoulderDawg
09-28-2009, 10:00 AM
Did he RAPE any of these women???
If he did that is another story all together......

If what is described in the court case happened then he should be able to get counseling, do his probation as well as stand down from his postion. He needs to be given a chance to pay his debt to society and move on with his life.

And yes he was charge with felony sexual assault which is rape. Check out the charges on the Boulder County Court website, Docket #09CR417. However since he's not foaming at the mouth crazy and his victim is not beat to a pulp it's kinda hard to prove. The DA did the best he could in this situation.

His students have gone as far as they can in trying to understand and help David. However when he started lashing out at people....well that's another story. The judge put it best when she said, "It appears the victims have been demonized in this case".

tattooedmonk
09-28-2009, 10:09 AM
And yes he was charge with felony sexual assault which is rape. Check out the charges on the Boulder County Court website, Docket #09CR417. However since he's not foaming at the mouth crazy and his victim is not beat to a pulp it's kinda hard to prove. The DA did the best he could in this situation.

His students have gone as far as they can in trying to understand and help David. However when he started lashing out at people....well that's another story. The judge put it best when she said, "It appears the victims have been demonized in this case".Charged but not convicted.

If there was forced penetration there would have been trauma to various part of the body at the time the crime was commited. There would have been DNA evidence, right? Bruises , lacerations, contussions ??

Wouldnt that be enough to convict him?? What about the fact that the DA said there wasnt much to the case to prosecute him ??

goju
09-28-2009, 10:29 AM
oh anything to try to save face for sd:D

Judge Pen
09-28-2009, 12:04 PM
sd does not resemble karate in the least just because its stiff in awkward doesnt make it karate:D
if anyones watched a proper karate demonstration its looks almost exactly like southern kung fu after all thats where karate came from
just as sd doesnt resemble silat either

So you criticize Mas Judt's opinions too. Do you know anything of his experience or background?

goju
09-28-2009, 12:10 PM
i know karate:D and ihave seen sin preform as well as david and sharon soard
if any one thinks thats karate well....:D they need to see some actual masters in action

Judge Pen
09-28-2009, 12:15 PM
I'm too busy to play on the boards and this is the best you guys can do?

The actions of this Soard fellow does not really indict the SD group. That's stupid and uncalled for. As far as Sin The' 'taking action' - what exactly is he expected to do? He's just a MA guy. He's not the feudal lord of the SD empire. I suppose if he was certain he could have kicked the guy out - but really, it's the cops job.

SD is SD. It is a hybrid MA - some Chinese and some JMA. My research shows it mostly CMA in Indonesia. There is a *unique* system buried in it. Typical of, well 'central' Chinese methods. This is not a value judgement, just an observation.

Stories about being the 'true' Shaolin, or 'real martial arts don't exist in China anymore' are common in Malaysia and Indonesia. Big Chinese diasporia - cut off for a while because of war and madness in the homeland. I'm not surprised The' believes this. I'm just surprised he hasn't figured out that much of his history is certainly fable.

SD runs into trouble with it's 'we teach every style' approach - as folks who do the individual styles often find them lacking.

The SD system is related to a silat system that is essentially the GM Ie material renamed.

In the past, I ribbed these guys pretty hard - largely because of the 'goofy' variants of known systems, and the incredibly unimpressive stuff I once saw at a Las Vegas Shaolin Do school. (My buddy Brian was apoplectic that they even called it Chinese Martial Arts.) - although he did not know that mixing JMA and CMA was common with some schools in Indonesia*. Although there ARE CMA methods that resemble Karate a great deal, and watching Sin The' move, he has a peculiar power method that is rather distinct from Karate.

However, I won't judge everybody by a few encounters. I am certain it is NOT the 'original Shaolin' blah, blah, blah - EVERYBODY virtually thinks they are in the Nusantra. But neither are they the complete devil - there are plenty of 'legit' CMA schools that offer just as wide ranging and rather thin offering. And there are plenty of schools that are far, far worse that are so-called 'real.'

Not my cup of tea, but not total crap like say, www.oomyungdoe.com

(Although the history is certainly as incorrect.)

*read Don Dreagers excellent 'Weapons and Fighting Arts of the Indonesian Archipelago" for more detail. As well as the writings of Dr. Phillip Davies.

Thanks for sharing that analysis. I've come to peace with this idea for a while now. Of course these concepts will be rejected by many because it contradicts with the stories they have been told for years, but it's not bad if it is practiced hard and taught well. The biggest problem within SD is the inconsistency in instruction and the number of really bad instructors and students. There are good, but a whole lot of bad too.

Judge Pen
09-28-2009, 12:20 PM
i know karate:D and ihave seen sin preform as well as david and sharon soard
if any one thinks thats karate well....:D they need to see some actual masters in action

He didn't say it was karate either. He said the method of power generation was peculiar and rather distinct from karate. Just like mixing yellow and blue make green, CMA and JMA mixed together in Indonesia can combine in unique ways to create something very distinctive. Mas Judt knows indoneasian martial arts so I value his opinion even when I haven't agreed with it.

kwaichang
09-28-2009, 12:30 PM
The only difference between you and Soard is impulse control. Now I dont want to get into a big long debate with you as you seem to like that.
But your students were later Therapists and your teaching had a direct influence on the student. As a therapist much like a MA teacher and his student , if the teacher is responsiple for the student when the become a Master, so are you for your student as a Therapist. So according to your logic you should turn in your license if any of your past students EVER "mess"up. That is a stupid idea dont you think? Here is your quote following. It seems to me to have those thoughts and feelings , is onestep, away from acting on it.

Interactions may occur - I am a licensed PT in NYS, and have manually treated numerous attractive and necesarilly scantily-clad females; was there something "chemical" and "energetic" that occurred? you bet there was! did any of them ever give me very strong indication that it would be ok to do something of a non-professional sort? yes; but did I EVER do anything inappropriate or unethical? NEVER; why not? because I am a professional, and as a professional, I understand that the power dynamic of a therapist / patient relationship is fundamentally innappropriate to transfer into a personal one; and likewise, exactly the same with a student / teacher relationship

You seem to be trying to turn this thing into a personal one, and trace it back to SD and GMT for some reason . The only thing I can assume is that you were beaten by some SD guy or girl way back when and you wont let it go.
I have nothing against you and per our PM's I respect you as a therapist I just dont understand your agitated personality. I feel to be a good Therapist you must be filled with compassion and empathy not anger, as that anger will flow into your treatment. I await yourt disection of this post with anticipation. KC

goju
09-28-2009, 12:52 PM
He didn't say it was karate either. He said the method of power generation was peculiar and rather distinct from karate. Just like mixing yellow and blue make green, CMA and JMA mixed together in Indonesia can combine in unique ways to create something very distinctive. Mas Judt knows indoneasian martial arts so I value his opinion even when I haven't agreed with it.

again no the power generation looks nothing like karate:D

goju
09-28-2009, 12:54 PM
The only difference between you and Soard is impulse control. Now I dont want to get into a big long debate with you as you seem to like that.
But your students were later Therapists and your teaching had a direct influence on the student. As a therapist much like a MA teacher and his student , if the teacher is responsiple for the student when the become a Master, so are you for your student as a Therapist. So according to your logic you should turn in your license if any of your past students EVER "mess"up. That is a stupid idea dont you think? Here is your quote following. It seems to me to have those thoughts and feelings , is onestep, away from acting on it.

Interactions may occur - I am a licensed PT in NYS, and have manually treated numerous attractive and necesarilly scantily-clad females; was there something "chemical" and "energetic" that occurred? you bet there was! did any of them ever give me very strong indication that it would be ok to do something of a non-professional sort? yes; but did I EVER do anything inappropriate or unethical? NEVER; why not? because I am a professional, and as a professional, I understand that the power dynamic of a therapist / patient relationship is fundamentally innappropriate to transfer into a personal one; and likewise, exactly the same with a student / teacher relationship

You seem to be trying to turn this thing into a personal one, and trace it back to SD and GMT for some reason . The only thing I can assume is that you were beaten by some SD guy or girl way back when and you wont let it go.
I have nothing against you and per our PM's I respect you as a therapist I just dont understand your agitated personality. I feel to be a good Therapist you must be filled with compassion and empathy not anger, as that anger will flow into your treatment. I await yourt disection of this post with anticipation. KC

thats right everyone has sexual thoughts about people they find attractive but acting on them a different thing
thinking and doing are two different things

as far as him getting beaten by some sd guy......:D

BoulderDawg
09-28-2009, 01:05 PM
I have a question for everyone here who thinks Sin The' walks on water and can do no wrong:

Why does every student at the CSC/SD have to take off their shoes before they can enter the school and participate in class? I mean this doesn't apply to Sin The'. He always wears his shoe when teaching a class......Isn't this being disrespectful to the art?

tattooedmonk
09-28-2009, 01:51 PM
I have a question for everyone here who thinks Sin The' walks on water and can do no wrong:

Why does every student at the CSC/SD have to take off their shoes before they can enter the school and participate in class? I mean this doesn't apply to Sin The'. He always wears his shoe when teaching a class......Isn't this being disrespectful to the art?If anyone thinks that they are too far gone to help!!lol:p No, it is not. Whether people wear shoes or not has nothing to do with anything. I think it is a matter of preference . The Japanese take their shoes off the Chinese dont . If we follow both then we should be able to do both:p;):eek::D

kwaichang
09-28-2009, 01:55 PM
I know where you are going with this what a simple bait. Shoes or no shoes who cares. KC

Judge Pen
09-28-2009, 02:01 PM
again no the power generation looks nothing like karate:D

We are all saying the same thing--it is different from karate, but I guess big words like peculiar and distinct make your head hurt so you ignore them.:D

Judge Pen
09-28-2009, 02:04 PM
I have a question for everyone here who thinks Sin The' walks on water and can do no wrong:

Why does every student at the CSC/SD have to take off their shoes before they can enter the school and participate in class? I mean this doesn't apply to Sin The'. He always wears his shoe when teaching a class......Isn't this being disrespectful to the art?

I wear shoes in class.

BoulderDawg
09-28-2009, 02:06 PM
If anyone thinks that they are too far gone to help!!lol:p No, it is not. Whether people wear shoes or not has nothing to do with anything. I think it is a matter of preference . The Japanese take their shoes off the Chinese dont . If we follow both then we should be able to do both:p;):eek::D

It's not a "matter of preference" at CSC. If you don't remove your shoes you are not allowed on the floor....bar none.....with the exception of The'.

Judge Pen
09-28-2009, 02:12 PM
It's not a "matter of preference" at CSC. If you don't remove your shoes you are not allowed on the floor....bar none.....with the exception of The'.

As this thread has shown, the CSC does things differently from other schools. It appears that they are more rigid and controlling on customs within their school. It seems that the "prohibition" from competing in open tournaments might have had some truth at the CSC. The article on David Soard's guilty plea even referenced control over diet habits. I get frusterated with a lot of the perception issues that come from the CSC. I don't agree with it, but I don't train there. If I moved to the west coast I would not train under their supervision based upon what I've seen of their training and based upon one of my friend's experiences trying to train with them.

BoulderDawg
09-28-2009, 02:49 PM
Just being fair here, The Soards are hard core vegans as are the two instructors that run the Boulder school. They are gung ho on the vegan lifestyle and suggest it highly. However I think it's a bit much to say anyone was required to be vegan.

Now that's for the so-called "normal everday student". Now, for the inner circle, the 4-5 students who would probably kill for the Soards if they ask them to, I have no doubt they are required to be vegan. However, considering the manual labor the Soards make some of these people do on their farm for nothing other than school credit I would hope they feed them something other than bean sprouts.

goju
09-28-2009, 02:52 PM
We are all saying the same thing--it is different from karate, but I guess big words like peculiar and distinct make your head hurt so you ignore them.:D
yes clearly im the unintelligent one after all i dont practice an art that doesnt resemble shaolin, pentjack, karate or any other art for that matter and has no documented evidence of it being an authentic style as well as being a laughing stock amongst the kung fu community

:D **** im uneducated!

tattooedmonk
09-28-2009, 03:14 PM
It's not a "matter of preference" at CSC. If you don't remove your shoes you are not allowed on the floor....bar none.....with the exception of The'.As I understood it, when I was attending CSC ,if you asked for permission to wear shoes for whatever reason and as long as they are not used on any other surface besides the kwoon floor then it was ok.

Mas Judt
09-28-2009, 03:22 PM
Judge,
You'll find it much more pleasant when you ignore the angry.

Here is some food for thought:
Karate is a derived from various Southern Fist methods - and were badly misunderstood. In order to make it work for them, it evolved down different roads, some fruitful, some not so fruitful. But Karate as it was first taught shows tremendous misunderstanding as to what was being done, why it was being done and how it should work compared to the systems they came from.

As a result, you have seen evolution - people innovated to fill the gaps. So you get things as diverse as Shidokan (adds boxing and Muay Thai skills), Tae Kwon Do (read 'a killing art' - the history of TKD), Kyokoshinkai, etc. There is god material in a lot of Karate, but I have yet to meet the Karate man who actually knew what it was. Not a slam, just an observation. Karate is NOT South Shaolin. And if you think it moves the same, you don't know South Shaolin.

And I think I was pretty clear when I drew a distinction between Karate-flavored moves* and the body method of Sin The'. It's different.

And there is great variety among your schools in quality - although I strongly doubt the efficacy of such a forms-heavy and contradictory curriculum. I'd bet if the schools focused on the core of what your teacher offers, they would be better in just about every way.

* What I saw in Vegas in the early 90's at an SD school. Karate one-step sparring and really, really bad Aiki-like joint locks called 'Chin Na'.

Judge Pen
09-28-2009, 03:56 PM
Just being fair here, The Soards are hard core vegans as are the two instructors that run the Boulder school. They are gung ho on the vegan lifestyle and suggest it highly. However I think it's a bit much to say anyone was required to be vegan.

Now that's for the so-called "normal everday student". Now, for the inner circle, the 4-5 students who would probably kill for the Soards if they ask them to, I have no doubt they are required to be vegan. However, considering the manual labor the Soards make some of these people do on their farm for nothing other than school credit I would hope they feed them something other than bean sprouts.

Anyway you slice that, that's weird and cultish.

Judge Pen
09-28-2009, 04:01 PM
Judge,
You'll find it much more pleasant when you ignore the angry.

Here is some food for thought:
Karate is a derived from various Southern Fist methods - and were badly misunderstood. In order to make it work for them, it evolved down different roads, some fruitful, some not so fruitful. But Karate as it was first taught shows tremendous misunderstanding as to what was being done, why it was being done and how it should work compared to the systems they came from.

As a result, you have seen evolution - people innovated to fill the gaps. So you get things as diverse as Shidokan (adds boxing and Muay Thai skills), Tae Kwon Do (read 'a killing art' - the history of TKD), Kyokoshinkai, etc. There is god material in a lot of Karate, but I have yet to meet the Karate man who actually knew what it was. Not a slam, just an observation. Karate is NOT South Shaolin. And if you think it moves the same, you don't know South Shaolin.

And I think I was pretty clear when I drew a distinction between Karate-flavored moves* and the body method of Sin The'. It's different.

And there is great variety among your schools in quality - although I strongly doubt the efficacy of such a forms-heavy and contradictory curriculum. I'd bet if the schools focused on the core of what your teacher offers, they would be better in just about every way.

* What I saw in Vegas in the early 90's at an SD school. Karate one-step sparring and really, really bad Aiki-like joint locks called 'Chin Na'.

One of the reasons I don't go to my SD teacher's class (there are several really not the least of being increased work/family obligations and proximity of my home to my teacher's class) was I was burned out on learning more forms. I have a handful of forms that I've learned that I keep up with because I find them useful and fun form myself. I miss the class environment and the motivation that comes with that, but I lost interest in learning more forms and obtaining more rank.

goju
09-28-2009, 04:21 PM
Judge,
You'll find it much more pleasant when you ignore the angry.

Here is some food for thought:
Karate is a derived from various Southern Fist methods - and were badly misunderstood. In order to make it work for them, it evolved down different roads, some fruitful, some not so fruitful. But Karate as it was first taught shows tremendous misunderstanding as to what was being done, why it was being done and how it should work compared to the systems they came from.

As a result, you have seen evolution - people innovated to fill the gaps. So you get things as diverse as Shidokan (adds boxing and Muay Thai skills), Tae Kwon Do (read 'a killing art' - the history of TKD), Kyokoshinkai, etc. There is god material in a lot of Karate, but I have yet to meet the Karate man who actually knew what it was. Not a slam, just an observation. Karate is NOT South Shaolin. And if you think it moves the same, you don't know South Shaolin.

And I think I was pretty clear when I drew a distinction between Karate-flavored moves* and the body method of Sin The'. It's different.

And there is great variety among your schools in quality - although I strongly doubt the efficacy of such a forms-heavy and contradictory curriculum. I'd bet if the schools focused on the core of what your teacher offers, they would be better in just about every way.

* What I saw in Vegas in the early 90's at an SD school. Karate one-step sparring and really, really bad Aiki-like joint locks called 'Chin Na'.

lol again ignorance on certian things the old chinese notion that they only taught half or watered down kung fu to the okinawans is one that is not based in any fact

in reality masters like kanryo higashionna spent extensive time learning kung fu and when he brought it back to okinawa he felt that altough kung fu was effective there were certain parts in it that werent useful so he disposed of them in order to suit the need of the okinawan people and lets not for get the fact traditional okinawan arts were blended in with the chinese ones that were learned to make karate

tremendous misunderstanding? thats funny because when sensei morio higaonna went to china to research goju ryu he found that the okinawans managed to preserve the chinese kata to this day as they were taught hundred of years ago to them by the chinese, youd think that would have happend for a people who misunderstood

kwaichang
09-28-2009, 04:25 PM
Do you think the Chinese MA actually taught the Okinawans the total and true CMA or just a derivative of it. ??? KC

kwaichang
09-28-2009, 04:28 PM
There seems to be alot of personal animosity going on here , are any of you truly unbiased by your own personal experiences with a SD teacher. I think most are angry for what ever reason. They choose to vent on this forum to bring glory to their own thoughts. KC

Mas Judt
09-28-2009, 05:17 PM
lol again ignorance on certian things the old chinese notion that they only taught half or watered down kung fu to the okinawans is one that is not based in any fact

in reality masters like kanryo higashionna spent extensive time learning kung fu and when he brought it back to okinawa he felt that altough kung fu was effective there were certain parts in it that werent useful so he disposed of them in order to suit the need of the okinawan people and lets not for get the fact traditional okinawan arts were blended in with the chinese ones that were learned to make karate

tremendous misunderstanding? thats funny because when sensei morio higaonna went to china to research goju ryu he found that the okinawans managed to preserve the chinese kata to this day as they were taught hundred of years ago to them by the chinese, youd think that would have happend for a people who misunderstood

Goju, this is complete and utter nonsense. If you do not know what you do not know, you may never even realize it is missing. Goju Ryu is a brilliant example of what I'm talking about - it completely misses the point of it's source material. Of course the guy who is trying to cover up for the fact that what he is teaching is not the actual method (no Okinawan or Japanese would EVER get 'in the door' back in those days) - so he says he 'fixed' it. And then adds a fanciful story being told he 'kept it pure,' So which is it? Fixed for his audience or the pure style?!? I guess it doesn't matter, it is what it is. And what it is, is not CMA. It is now something else.

Dude, seriously, don't just repeat propaganda, a lot of this is easily explored in this modern word of digital openness. Maybe you should look at yourself before you cast stones, my young man.

goju
09-28-2009, 05:25 PM
Do you think the Chinese MA actually taught the Okinawans the total and true CMA or just a derivative of it. ??? KC
:)
if i may use kanryo higashionna for example again he ended up saving his chinese sifu ru ru ko's daughters life from drowning in the water and when asked by ru ru ko what he could do to pay kanryo back and thank him for saving his duaghters life kanryo asked him to teach him kung fu

you really think he would have gave him a waterd down form of kung fu after he saved one of his family members life?

or another example would be of course the famous iron body skills many okinawans stylist posess from doing sanchin

for claims that karate is watered down kung fu or the okinawans learned from watching how did they learn this

you cant learn chi gung just by watching you have to have intensive one on one instruction with your instructor where things are taught in detail to be able to master this technique



for these reasons i laugh at people who claim the okinwans learned waterd down fu its nothing more than an old wives tale

goju
09-28-2009, 05:30 PM
Goju, this is complete and utter nonsense. If you do not know what you do not know, you may never even realize it is missing. Goju Ryu is a brilliant example of what I'm talking about - it completely misses the point of it's source material. Of course the guy who is trying to cover up for the fact that what he is teaching is not the actual method (no Okinawan or Japanese would EVER get 'in the door' back in those days) - so he says he 'fixed' it. And then adds a fanciful story being told he 'kept it pure,' So which is it? Fixed for his audience or the pure style?!? I guess it doesn't matter, it is what it is. And what it is, is not CMA. It is now something else.

Dude, seriously, don't just repeat propaganda, a lot of this is easily explored in this modern word of digital openness. Maybe you should look at yourself before you cast stones, my young man.

i answered this with my post below actually nothing but an old wives tale from predujice chinese nothing more

goju is more than just another version of white crane however largely the chinese influence has been preserved and not misunderstood or watered down my proof is in the katas which are not any different from the chinese ones in china even after hundres of years

the chinese themselves have discarded parts of styles to make new ones they felt were more efficient like wing chun for example but of course using your logic they must have misunderstood wrong too right lol!!!

kungfujunky
09-28-2009, 06:21 PM
It's not a "matter of preference" at CSC. If you don't remove your shoes you are not allowed on the floor....bar none.....with the exception of The'.

not true at all

kwaichang
09-28-2009, 07:01 PM
Eclectic : amixture of or composit of something. In this case a Martial art or arts.

The core of Higashionna's teaching was quite possibly an eclectic rather than a traditional art. This may have been based on Lohan boxing and Tamo iron body training integrated with a composite of Ryu Ryuko's and Wan Shin Zan's Crane boxing.

Whatever the true origin's are, should they ever be discovered, Higashionna passed on a synthesis of martial knowledge that is relevant whatever its source. We can therefore look back in appreciation at the rich heritage the early Okinawan karate teachers handed down irrespective of Ryu. Equally we should look forwards and understand that all karate below the surface is the same, as the differences are but expressions of a common knowledge.


References:
Fighting Art International: No.87 and No.90 The Black Ship of Karate-Do 'Patrick McCarthy' by Colin Whitehead and Graham Noble.
Okinawan Karate, 'Teachers, styles and secret techniques' by Mark Bishop, printed 1989 A&C Black, ISBN 0 7136 5666 2.
This in itself defines Kanryo's MA as a composite KC

goju
09-28-2009, 07:08 PM
i am aware of the meaning of eclectic and i am also aware higashionnas teachinga were from what he studied from more than one chinese master

however it doesnt stray from, the fact goju ryu kept its chinese influence traditional every kung fu style is a mixture of a variety of different styles so seperating a art in the eclectic side because it is a mixture of different thing is not sensible:D

Mas Judt
09-28-2009, 07:32 PM
Goju, you are really funny. You keep on believing that silliness. I can see now why you like the Kool-Aid, you obviously drank a lot.

Mas Judt
09-28-2009, 07:34 PM
No really Goju, that was really funny stuff. Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

taai gihk yahn
09-28-2009, 07:35 PM
The only difference between you and Soard is impulse control.
that's a pretty big difference! oh, there are other differences - he practices a BS CMA, I don't;


Now I dont want to get into a big long debate with you as you seem to like that.
apparently you do want to get into a debate, since you keep responding;


But your students were later Therapists and your teaching had a direct influence on the student. As a therapist much like a MA teacher and his student , if the teacher is responsiple for the student when the become a Master, so are you for your student as a Therapist. So according to your logic you should turn in your license if any of your past students EVER "mess"up. That is a stupid idea dont you think?
again, you are incorrect in your analogy, because the profession of PT is NOT based on the same philosophical precepts as the student / teacher relationship in TCMA; the main difference is that the PT profession in licensed, and as such the accountability is on each individual practitioner; so even though my teaching may have influenced a student, they still have to operate within the statutory scope of practice of a given state - for example, I may have taught a student how to dry needle, but if they go and practice that in a state where it's not legal for them to do so, I am not responsible for their decision to do that; meaning that it's highly context dependent, by necessity; OTOH, w/TCMA sifu / student, the convention a priori is that the sifu is held responsible for the student's actions - this is a Chinese cultural convention, there is no legal aspect to it; whereas in the case of PT, it is a regulatory issue in terms of accountability; why can't you understand this difference? I think you just see things in overly simplistic terms...typical PT...


Here is your quote following. It seems to me to have those thoughts and feelings , is onestep, away from acting on it.
again, you are trying to somehow spin this so that the fact that I am even thinking in this way implies some sort of misconduct; whatever, that's on you - personally, I am confident that I have never taken advantage of my relationship with a patient, even when the patient has made overtures, not matter what I might have noted about my own reaction to them; and yes, in a way, it is just "one step" away; and it is a step that I never have and never will take; so what's your point? are you suggesting that somehow I am at risk for doing something inappropriate because I acknowledge what I acknowledge? I would suggest that anyone who doesn't is more at risk; in fact, I know at least 2 other PT's who did end up getting involved with patients, who seemed surprised that things went that way; I'd rather have the full awareness so that I can avoid taking that "one step";


You seem to be trying to turn this thing into a personal one, and trace it back to SD and GMT for some reason . The only thing I can assume is that you were beaten by some SD guy or girl way back when and you wont let it go.
actually, I never met an SD person in my life; but I still know sh1t when I see it, based on what is readily available about SD online;


I have nothing against you and per our PM's I respect you as a therapist I just dont understand your agitated personality. I feel to be a good Therapist you must be filled with compassion and empathy not anger, as that anger will flow into your treatment.
there is no anger, but I am resolute in what I say / write; why is having a concerted opinion tantamount to being agitated or angry? as far as being a "good" therapist because you have empathy, I disagree - you can be emotionally completely disconnected and still deliver outstanding treatment and get excellent results; I say this from personal experience, not out of theory;


I await yourt disection of this post with anticipation. KC
if that is so, then you need to get out more...

goju
09-28-2009, 08:00 PM
No really Goju, that was really funny stuff. Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

funny how you couldnt debate against it in an intelligent manner i wonder why that is?
i told you why you were wrong and went into detail explaining why. you have done nothing in the same manner beside produce a claim that you have no evidence to back up

its not wise to speak on a subject when your understanding of it is minimal:D

Mas Judt
09-28-2009, 08:20 PM
Goju, you need to say something intelligent before I can debate you in an intelligent manner. I genuinely thought you were being funny because no one with any knowledge of White Crane would confuse it with Goju Ryu. Heck, just the raw ignorance of the method demonstrated by how the Karate guys use Sam Chiem is evidence enough that Hiagonna only learned the outer shell.


Let's go point by point:

"if i may use kanryo higashionna for example again he ended up saving his chinese sifu ru ru ko's daughters life from drowning in the water and when asked by ru ru ko what he could do to pay kanryo back and thank him for saving his duaghters life kanryo asked him to teach him kung fu"

REPLY: An unsubstantiated story - probably made up or greatly embellished. No third party verification, and Goju Ryu does not reflect BASIC CMA knowledge of the systems it claims as it's ancestor. So obviously SOMEBODY didn't share with the poor guy.


"you really think he would have gave him a waterd down form of kung fu after he saved one of his family members life?"

REPLY: IF that ever really happened, yes. You don't give your enemy military secrets even if they help you. Unless your name is Bill Clinton.

"or another example would be of course the famous iron body skills many okinawans stylist posess from doing sanchin"

REPLY: A perfect example of what I was saying - the Karate 'SanChin' is a stunning misunderstanding of the basic Sam Chiem set shared by many Fukien systems such as Ngo Cho and White Crane. And the 'iron body' skills exhibited by the Goju group are not authentic CMA Iron Body skills. It is a gross misunderstanding of the Um Yung principle in relation to hard ging generation commonly found in CMA in that area. Another BASIC skill of the 'ancestor' of Goju Ryu that Goju Ryu does not possess.

"for claims that karate is watered down kung fu or the okinawans learned from watching how did they learn this"

Reply: Well, judging by the fact that it is a childish guess at what was being performed in China, I'd say Hiagonna (He A Gonna?) made it up. Which why I thought you were joking. This is funny stuff you appear to believe.

"you cant learn chi gung just by watching you have to have intensive one on one instruction with your instructor where things are taught in detail to be able to master this technique"

REPLY: YOU ARE CORRECT! Which is why Goju Ryu can not demonstrate the actual skills. Which is evidence enough to any thinking person that the claims of the Goju clan are rather exaggerated.

"for these reasons i laugh at people who claim the okinwans learned waterd down fu its nothing more than an old wives tale"

REPLY: Well good luck with that.

Sorry Goju, I won't entertain you past this point. You don't know what you are talking about. You don't even know what you don't know you are talking about. Good luck buddy, I hope you can grow past your delusions.

goju
09-28-2009, 08:37 PM
thats your evidence? it may have beens a story? lol why would he make it up!?
but it gets better according to you goju ryu doesnt reflect any chinese teachings lmao!!!!

enemy? the okinawans were never enemies with the chinese in fact many okinawans went to china to escape the japanese occupying their country and to dodge the draft they were forcing on the natives
:D

lol good lord you keep digging yourself in a deeper hole !!! the okinawan sanchin is a gross misinterpretation yet some how the okinawans who didnt get sam chien still managed to achieve iron body skills from a back wards understanding of the routine?
anyone can you tube the uechi ryu training on "human weapon" and watch the effectivenss of sanchin

he made it up? l the only thing that is childish is your argument
so essentially he pulled it out of his arse but miraculously he made it effective to be able to with stand blows?

but there is no evidence of sanchin testing where full force strikes are taken and various things are broken over the practioners bodys to demonstrate its effectiveness ?

wow.... just wow:D

goju
09-28-2009, 08:45 PM
.. i am just shocked with the incredible ignorance this is just....**** bro lol

my flashplayers wonky but this may be the uechi ryu section of human weapon where they demonstrate their iron body that according to you is made up and doesnt workl ol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im9NzBciths
let me know if this is it

goju
09-28-2009, 09:02 PM
so i looked at your profile and noticed your a kuntao silat guy from the de thouars are you not?
isnt kuntao a blend of chinese arts and indonesian? and arent the de thouars part dutch and indonesian or something of the sort?

so using your logic the kung fu in silat has to be watered down back wards nonsense that the chinese half taught to the indonesians and the de thoaurs ?:D

kwaichang
09-29-2009, 04:10 AM
i am aware of the meaning of eclectic and i am also aware higashionnas teachinga were from what he studied from more than one chinese master

however it doesnt stray from, the fact goju ryu kept its chinese influence traditional every kung fu style is a mixture of a variety of different styles so seperating a art in the eclectic side because it is a mixture of different thing is not sensible:D

If your above ststement is true then why are you so down on SD , sounds much like GoJu Ryu to me KC

Judge Pen
09-29-2009, 04:19 AM
I'm not going to get in the middle of an argument about Okinawan karate's origins and whether it is "misunderstood" CMA. Not my area at all, but.....

Regarding the iron body demonstration you posted, I have had similar boards broken over my body while practicing San Njie. I've seen Master Garry Mullins break the neck of three baseball bats taped together at a demonstration with his shin. I've not seen anyone in our style break the neck of a bat with their radius but I would bet there are those that can do it.

Now by anaology I know you think SD is made up, bs and misunderstood; however, there are those who have developed similar iron body skills as the demo you put out there for an example. Just a thought.

SDJerry
09-29-2009, 05:17 AM
I heard that Goju Ryu came from the Hung. If you look at their movements you'll see similarities however I will admit, they don't use the techniques the way we do. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but definitely different.

Facepalm
09-29-2009, 08:08 AM
So I dont know if I can keep training under M David after this whole thing.

I got my BB this month and then this whole thing blew up.

I really like M Sharon, and I like the school and the system but I cant keep a clean conscience and still train here.

DO I really want to keep going to a school that I know only has drama and politics awaiting me after a few years.

I know if I was asked I would disapprove of M David's actions, so then would i be kicked out?

I plan on keeping up with all my lower belt and brown belt material, but I think Im going to find a Thai Boxing gym or something like that.

I wish I could stay at the CSC and I wish I could continue to study SD but theres no way I can do that anymore.

BoulderDawg,

do you know of any good Muay Thai places in Boulder that arnt too expensive and have live contact sparring? I think im ready for a change.

tattooedmonk
09-29-2009, 08:13 AM
So I dont know if I can keep training under M David after this whole thing.

I got my BB this month and then this whole thing blew up.

I really like M Sharon, and I like the school and the system but I cant keep a clean conscience and still train here.

DO I really want to keep going to a school that I know only has drama and politics awaiting me after a few years.

I know if I was asked I would disapprove of M David's actions, so then would i be kicked out?

I plan on keeping up with all my lower belt and brown belt material, but I think Im going to find a Thai Boxing gym or something like that.

I wish I could stay at the CSC and I wish I could continue to study SD but theres no way I can do that anymore.

BoulderDawg,

do you know of any good Muay Thai places in Boulder that arnt too expensive and have live contact sparring? I think im ready for a change.why not hook up with some of the rogues around the area????:D I have three ex CSC/ SDers with me that are all above brown belt.

Mas Judt
09-29-2009, 08:15 AM
Goju,
No offense buddy, but I have no time to debate with children or idiots. Not sure which category you fall in, but good luck with things, you are going to need it. There simply isn't time to spend explaining the obvious.

But, here is a clue: In CMA hard tension is not required for Iron Body skills, nor is it considered very wise at the 'highest' levels. Yet it is THE method used in JMA.

One More Clue: If you think 'Iron Body' is the goal of Sam Chien, you have no clue as to what the basic methods are of the Wu Shu method that Goju claims to be.

Here is another clue: You have no idea what you are talking about in regards to to the Indonesian martial arts scene. Go read Draeger and DR. Davies and OOng Maryono's books as a good starter.

And a final clue: No Goju man can demonstrate, name or explain the basic concepts of the system it claims origin from. Why is that?

You are now on my ignore list.

Judge,
From what I have seen, the SD method more closely resembles CMA than JMA Iron Body skills. These are not uncommon skills. Ranging from the lowest level, requiring tension, to tension/release and the purely relaxed methods. Anybody, with minimal instruction can develop good skills in Iron Body. The question is, how much will they damage themselves from bad training? Some methods improve the body and others destroy it.

tattooedmonk
09-29-2009, 08:16 AM
JP after he suggested to me months ago to stop, still argues with the little douche bag GoJu. Didnt you tell me nothing good could come from it?? lol:eek::p I stopped why cant you?? lol what about you Mas??

goju
09-29-2009, 08:18 AM
If your above ststement is true then why are you so down on SD , sounds much like GoJu Ryu to me KC

difference between authentic styles being created and mixed together and made up ones

tattooedmonk
09-29-2009, 08:18 AM
Goju,
No offense buddy, but I have no time to debate with children or idiots. Not sure which category you fall in, but good luck with things, you are going to need it. There simply isn't time to spend explaining the obvious.

But, here is a clue: In CMA hard tension is not required for Iron Body skills, nor is it considered very wise at the 'highest' levels. Yet it is THE method used in JMA.

One More Clue: If you think 'Iron Body' is the goal of Sam Chien, you have no clue as to what the basic methods are of the Wu Shu method that Goju claims to be.

Here is another clue: You have no idea what you are talking about in regards to to the Indonesian martial arts scene. Go read Draeger and DR. Davies and OOng Maryono's books as a good starter.

And a final clue: No Goju man can demonstrate, name or explain the basic concepts of the system it claims origin from. Why is that?

You are now on my ignore list.

Judge,
From what I have seen, the SD method more closely resembles CMA than JMA Iron Body skills. These are not uncommon skills. Ranging from the lowest level, requiring tension, to tension/release and the purely relaxed methods. Anybody, with minimal instruction can develop good skills in Iron Body. The question is, how much will they damage themselves from bad training? Some methods improve the body and others destroy it.He falls into both!!!;):p

goju
09-29-2009, 08:28 AM
Goju,
No offense buddy, but I have no time to debate with children or idiots. Not sure which category you fall in, but good luck with things, you are going to need it. There simply isn't time to spend explaining the obvious.

But, here is a clue: In CMA hard tension is not required for Iron Body skills, nor is it considered very wise at the 'highest' levels. Yet it is THE method used in JMA.

One More Clue: If you think 'Iron Body' is the goal of Sam Chien, you have no clue as to what the basic methods are of the Wu Shu method that Goju claims to be.

Here is another clue: You have no idea what you are talking about in regards to to the Indonesian martial arts scene. Go read Draeger and DR. Davies and OOng Maryono's books as a good starter.

And a final clue: No Goju man can demonstrate, name or explain the basic concepts of the system it claims origin from. Why is that?

You are now on my ignore list.

Judge,
From what I have seen, the SD method more closely resembles CMA than JMA Iron Body skills. These are not uncommon skills. Ranging from the lowest level, requiring tension, to tension/release and the purely relaxed methods. Anybody, with minimal instruction can develop good skills in Iron Body. The question is, how much will they damage themselves from bad training? Some methods improve the body and others destroy it.

lol!!!! oh so now you run away when i call you out on your bs? if the chinese taught the okinawans a watered down half arse kung fu you honestly expect us to believe they taught the de thouars brothers authentic cma? lmao!!!!
not so good when the shoes on the other foot is it?

really hard tension isnt required in iron body? no sh@t sherlock no respectable master advocates squeezing your body so hard your eyes pop out when you preform sanchin
:D
again your ignorance speaks volumes

never said it was the only or main goal one of the effects of proper sanchin training however is "iron body" along with root and power development:D

oh no i do i recall a article on kuntao silat and how a shaolin monk supposdly broke the rules by teaching i beleive one of the de thouars but of course he passed on the "real" stuff' to them right lol! i guess he knew the secret hand shake to get the good stuff the okinawans missd out on


so whats your point the average wing chun man cant explain the concepts of crane fist even though his style came from that style

Judge Pen
09-29-2009, 08:32 AM
JP after he suggested to me months ago to stop, still argues with the little douche bag GoJu. Didnt you tell me nothing good could come from it?? lol:eek::p I stopped why cant you?? lol what about you Mas??

You're right, I got bored.

goju
09-29-2009, 08:33 AM
I'm not going to get in the middle of an argument about Okinawan karate's origins and whether it is "misunderstood" CMA. Not my area at all, but.....

Regarding the iron body demonstration you posted, I have had similar boards broken over my body while practicing San Njie. I've seen Master Garry Mullins break the neck of three baseball bats taped together at a demonstration with his shin. I've not seen anyone in our style break the neck of a bat with their radius but I would bet there are those that can do it.

Now by anaology I know you think SD is made up, bs and misunderstood; however, there are those who have developed similar iron body skills as the demo you put out there for an example. Just a thought.

if that was the correct one that showed uechi ryu karate then the master also demonstrated by punching his student extremly hard in the abdomen repeatedly
not to mention those boards in that tape if it is the correct one were extremly thick not the average breakable thin one ive seen sd guys use along with other supposed iron body demonstrations teams

goju
09-29-2009, 08:35 AM
I heard that Goju Ryu came from the Hung. If you look at their movements you'll see similarities however I will admit, they don't use the techniques the way we do. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but definitely different.

hung gar acording to wing lam is one of the arts that supposedly lead to the formation of karate

goju
09-29-2009, 08:40 AM
if you stay with kung fu face palm theres this guy in boulder i forget his name who teaches shaolin he does demonstrations at the dragon boat festivals in denver with his students along with lion dancing seems like hes pretty good and legit:D
ill try to find his name and school for ya

theres also suppose to be a korean master up in boulder who teaches tkd hapkido tangsoo doo and praying mantis and really suppose to be taught in a tradtional manner:D

BoulderDawg
09-29-2009, 09:36 AM
I don't know of any Muay Thai in Boulder. I could be wrong about that.

I seriously want to check out the boxing gym here. I believe it's somewhere off of Foothills. I understand it's intense and a dam good school.

goju
09-29-2009, 11:07 AM
oh ken cohens in boulder too if you want to learn the internal arts he was trained under adam hsu so you know hes legit

BoulderDawg
09-29-2009, 11:29 AM
Did the other thread just get totally wiped out of existance? I don't see it or any explanation why it is gone.

tattooedmonk
09-29-2009, 11:38 AM
maybe DS has more pull than we thought........:eek::D:p

Judge Pen
09-29-2009, 01:05 PM
Things that make you go hmmmmmmm

sean_stonehart
09-29-2009, 01:17 PM
Gene's mod fu is strong

tattooedmonk
09-29-2009, 01:34 PM
This is some serious $H!T!!!

MasterKiller
09-29-2009, 01:39 PM
Does it have to do with the fact that it is only soft deleted??

Soft delete just means only moderators can see it. If it was 'hard' deleted, it would be gone forever.

GeneChing
09-29-2009, 01:40 PM
...and I'm not at liberty to say at this time. My apologies. I hope you all understand. :(

I just realized I can see all sorts of deleted threads that non-admin members can't see. A hard delete erases the file. A soft delete just deactivates it.

BoulderDawg
09-29-2009, 02:06 PM
This kinda gives you the idea what people without as many resources as KFM have went through. These people don't play.

kwaichang
09-29-2009, 02:23 PM
There you go guys just talk about DS and this whole thread will be gone. Isnt that what you guys have always wanted? KC

BoulderDawg
09-29-2009, 02:40 PM
There you go guys just talk about DS and this whole thread will be gone. Isnt that what you guys have always wanted? KC

I think that would please Soard and The' to no end!:D

taai gihk yahn
09-29-2009, 02:57 PM
oh ken cohens in boulder too if you want to learn the internal arts he was trained under adam hsu so you know hes legit

dig deeper...

ShaolinGirl
09-29-2009, 03:41 PM
...and I'm not at liberty to say at this time. My apologies. I hope you all understand. :(

I just realized I can see all sorts of deleted threads that non-admin members can't see. A hard delete erases the file. A soft delete just deactivates it.

While I sympathize with your position and realize this is a private forum where you can do as you wish, with or without a lawyer breathing down your neck, I'm pretty sure there is nothing illegal about posting what's already in the public domain! What kind of clout does this guy have? Just goes to show how people with money and power can get away with so much.

BoulderDawg
09-29-2009, 03:59 PM
This doesn't really surprise me. At least this time they went after Kung Fu Magazine instead of some instructor so broke that he has to live out of the back of the school.

Anyway I can't wait to hear a report about class tonight in Boulder. Wonder who will show up?:D

David Jamieson
09-29-2009, 04:12 PM
While I sympathize with your position and realize this is a private forum where you can do as you wish, with or without a lawyer breathing down your neack, I'm pretty sure there is nothing illegal about posting what's already in the public domain! What kind of clout does this guy have? Just goes to show how people with money and power can get away with so much.

America is built on capitalism and runs on it. You don't really think that it would be different for some reason in this sub culture? Lawyers are definitely capitalists. :p

bodhi warrior
09-29-2009, 04:14 PM
concerning the copywrite post. I really didn't understand much of that legal jargon. but at the end when it talks about the videocassette copywrited in 1980, I wonder if it concerns the ket series which was recorded in 1980?

Mas Judt
09-29-2009, 04:36 PM
My guess is that KFM was served. Doesn't matter if the information is not actionable - it still costs money to defend yourself. Sadly, this does not look good for Sin The'.

BoulderDawg
09-29-2009, 05:37 PM
Interesting story coming out of Denver/Boulder these days!


That's all I'm going to say!:eek:

Dam, did I nail that one or what!:D:eek:

goju
09-29-2009, 06:26 PM
whats going on this is weird:D
its like that one movie with tom hanks about god where he like uncovers things and stuff about that one book and then he goes "oh god" and that chick standing next to him goes "gasp" and then the other guy with them just stands there with his mouth open then that creepy albino dude who was hanging from the chandilier unbenounced to tom hanks and his freinds leaps at them from behind and goes "yaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!"

mystery is afoot fellow posters:D

ShaolinGirl
09-29-2009, 06:42 PM
America is built on capitalism and runs on it. You don't really think that it would be different for some reason in this sub culture? Lawyers are definitely capitalists. :p

I know that, of course. It's just sad that the law can be abused so wretchedly and there's nothing a moderator/editor can do about it. That's why I like the fantasy of kung fu movies: instant karma that one can witness! :-)

ShaolinGirl
09-29-2009, 06:47 PM
this is absurd and scary: a thread discussing a pubic news story is yanked because the guy who is the subject of the piece has his lawyer get involved? what possible grounds could there be for legal action here? and why can't the reason itself be given?

this is a low point in the history of KFMF...

KFMF really doesn't have much of a choice. I doubt very much that they have a pyramid scheme of publications that allows them to hire such expensive lawyers....

But it is very interesting that this much effort is going into trying to suppress a news article and some people's opinions. Do the innocent protest this much?

One student
09-29-2009, 06:50 PM
My guess is that KFM was served. Doesn't matter if the information is not actionable - it still costs money to defend yourself. Sadly, this does not look good for Sin The'.

Pardon me for coming in late, but I wasn't following "the other thread." What was it, and if someone can inform me, what does it have to do with GMS, that it would "not look good" for him, other than his association with DS?

Just looking for insight, please.

Judge Pen
09-29-2009, 06:54 PM
My guess is that it isn't the reference to the news article, but the comment that surrounds it. I don't think Gene and KFM would cower over the posting of a news article. The threat, and a gray area in the law, is whether a forum can be held accountable for the comments of its posters if the comments constitute defamation. That is, by the forum allowing the comment to occur are they republishing the defamation and making them as accountable for any alleged damages.

Defamation is a murky legal area especially with the advent of the internet.

And please don't think that I'm arguing that any of the comments were or were not defamation. I'm just speculating like the rest of us here....

BoulderDawg
09-29-2009, 07:08 PM
As for the present situation, we're honoring a request for now under the stipulation that another request is honored. If that isn't honored, then the thread is reestablished.


According to Gene, The' lawyer made some sort of deal with KFM.

"We will do such and such if you take down the thread."

To me that was really weird. What is it that The' lawyer could have possible agreed to?

brucereiter
09-29-2009, 09:35 PM
concerning the copywrite post. I really didn't understand much of that legal jargon. but at the end when it talks about the videocassette copywrited in 1980, I wonder if it concerns the ket series which was recorded in 1980?

my understanding is that it is a video of all of the material sin the teaches for each rank.
i have not seen the video myself.

some key points are noting exactly what is protected and in my understanding it is simply the order of exercises as depicted on the video, the name sin the gym and its logo and it also notes the "first use" of the name "shaolin do".

in my opinion it is more evidence that the school or system was not called "shaolin do" in indonesia but was called (translated to english)"Central Plains Shaolin Wushu School "

Judge Pen
09-30-2009, 01:25 AM
According to Gene, The' lawyer made some sort of deal with KFM.

"We will do such and such if you take down the thread."

To me that was really weird. What is it that The' lawyer could have possible agreed to?

We don't even know if it was a lawyer for The' or a lawyer for Soards do we?

OldandUsed
09-30-2009, 05:01 AM
Bruce,

Yes, I believe you have it. From everything I remember from conversations with both brothers, that is the way it was. Also, recall back in early 70's a statement all instructors signed agreeing to not teach for specified period after leaving. But after that time passes, you could teach what you remembered. Also, you are correct on the aspect of copyright in that it was the sequence of material delivered at each level. I do not know to which rank, but doubt much about Nidan or possibly Sandan, as he has changed that around dramatically since the first group of us went through it.

OldandUsed

OldandUsed
09-30-2009, 05:08 AM
Also, for general purposes, since first joining SD in 1970 until leaving for good in 2002, I saw/heard/experienced a lot. Some good and some bad. There are some very talented people in SD and there are some dirtballs. MA talent aside, the quirks of personality ooze up to the surface and that is what stirs up so much controversy. Personally, I never bought into the linage deal and did not really care. I enjoyed the exercise and the brotherhood. As the drama increased and the hypocracy increased, I grew less enthusiastic. After a while, I was only in it for my own students. I had trained before SD, cross trained while in SD and have gone back to train in other systems since SD. I still use SD and teach some of the techniques, but most of it I discard as impractical. Philosophy? Morals? Ethics? Principle and tradition? Just my perspective, you understand, but the senior "leadership" of SD only pays lip service to that and is very selective in memory. After leaving SD in 2002, I went back to GMH and mended fences. Much happier now and a lot less drama.

ShaolinGirl
09-30-2009, 05:50 AM
...and I'm not at liberty to say at this time. My apologies. I hope you all understand. :(

I just realized I can see all sorts of deleted threads that non-admin members can't see. A hard delete erases the file. A soft delete just deactivates it.

deleted for Gene

taai gihk yahn
09-30-2009, 06:20 AM
so one could start a new thread stating the news article and the fact that david soard pleaded guilty to sexually harrassing his students and there's not much any lawyer could say about that.... Since the article appears so many places:

<space for rent>


3...2...1...

ShaolinGirl
09-30-2009, 06:48 AM
Fine. But only for Gene.

solo1
09-30-2009, 07:28 AM
Gene runs a great mag and a good forum, that being said he is first and foremost a businessman and had to make a call to protect his investment. If the "suits" told him it would be better if you take it down and avoid any further issues then he has to do what is in his best interest. We may not like it and whine about freedom of speech etc etc but he has a right to protect his interests. I think that position should be respected. drop the topic. we can argue another day.

BoulderDawg
09-30-2009, 09:27 AM
Gene runs a great mag and a good forum, that being said he is first and foremost a businessman and had to make a call to protect his investment. If the "suits" told him it would be better if you take it down and avoid any further issues then he has to do what is in his best interest. We may not like it and whine about freedom of speech etc etc but he has a right to protect his interests. I think that position should be respected. drop the topic. we can argue another day.

That's not what was said.

It was quid pro quo.

Mas Judt
09-30-2009, 09:31 AM
Well, is there substantiation for the claim Sin The' 'removed' the people who spoke out against Soard's actions? It seems likely to me that this would be a cause fr deleting the thread, as it is unsubstantiated. Any witnesses to this?

You know, this stuff kills martial arts. In my hometown we had a pair of sexual deviants running a Karate school, raping children and generally doing bad martial arts. They went to jail. This was followed with the Chung Moo Quan bust - after that stuff, no school could survive in that area.

Fortunately, none of them were of any interest to me and I dodged those bulets, but a lot of people did get hurt and that town and the surrounding towns are still a no-man's land for martial arts.

Mas Judt
09-30-2009, 09:33 AM
I'm done. Don't want to hurt the KFM rice bowl.

Hey Goju Nyah,Nyah,Nyah,,, there that should change the subject.

OldandUsed
09-30-2009, 09:42 AM
There is a thread on a site that is named along the lines of bovine excrement that stated letters were sent expelling members and striping rank. You can check them out there.

Lucas
09-30-2009, 10:10 AM
No soup for you!

OldandUsed
09-30-2009, 10:24 AM
LOL, can't we all just get along?

Thanks, Gene.

goju
09-30-2009, 11:03 AM
I'm done. Don't want to hurt the KFM rice bowl.

Hey Goju Nyah,Nyah,Nyah,,, there that should change the subject.
doesnt change the fact you made a fool out of yourself by your statements chinese didnt teach authentic martial arts to non chinese especially when your own style claims to be a taught from a monk to indonesian/ dutch brothers lol

contradictions are amusing are they not? :)

enjoy your watered down fu though cheers:D

kwaichang
09-30-2009, 11:26 AM
I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

Shaolindo is as real and authentic as any other style as stated many times all MA are a conglomeration of styles etc GoJu , Shoto Kan Wing Chun Etc. So all of those who say that SD isnt the real deal thats fine you have your opinion. Also the power generation does not even resemble Karate, the 5 sources of power are not utilized while others are. I feel that what most people have seen is a poor account of SD and they passed their judgements from that. Thats all. KC

goju
09-30-2009, 02:00 PM
well where is the good sd then i want to see it:D

theres been just as much complaints of mcdojoisms in branches of sd across the us
the csc isnt the only one whos gotten the blunt of accusations

taai gihk yahn
09-30-2009, 02:18 PM
well where is the good sd then i want to see it:D
if you don't drink the Kool-Aid, you're not gonna...come, drink, be of us...

goju
09-30-2009, 02:28 PM
so you were the guy in the white van with the sd logo outside my house trying to get me to climb in the back lol:D

brucereiter
09-30-2009, 02:44 PM
well where is the good sd then i want to see it:D

theres been just as much complaints of mcdojoisms in branches of sd across the us
the csc isnt the only one whos gotten the blunt of accusations

i am nothing special and am no longer involved with the sd system but the content of the videos on my youtube channel present some of what i learned from shaolin do at the csc atlanta.

http://www.youtube.com/user/brucereiter

do you have any videos of your own practice?

goju
09-30-2009, 03:32 PM
all i have are pictures of me and an account of an sd practioner who sparred with me that was posted on this thread:D i havent the slightest clue how you upload videos to the web:D

brucereiter
09-30-2009, 03:52 PM
all i have are pictures of me and an account of an sd practioner who sparred with me that was posted on this thread:D i havent the slightest clue how you upload videos to the web:D

if you
a. have a standard digital camera with a memory card or usb plug under 200 bucks ...
b. have a computer mac or pc it does not matter
c. can read english and follow simple directions
d. do a google search "how to upload videos"

you can post to youtube. if ya want.
:cool::D

i am being a smart ass with the above but you asked where all the good sd is and i showed you several things i think are good from me. what do you think about the content of the videos?

goju
09-30-2009, 04:28 PM
a, i do not have a digital camera nor do i have a clue what a usb plug in is
b i have a mac:D and ive had it for a year and its the first computer ive ever had in my entire life( i come from irish farmer hill folk so im sorry if im out of touch with technology):D
c. yes i can. but i assume you need other computer equipment to achieve this and i dont even so much as own a printer for my computer:D

didnt watch the videos i dont have a flash player in my puter either:D

David Jamieson
09-30-2009, 04:35 PM
a, i do not have a digital camera nor do i have a clue what a usb plug in is
b i have a mac:D and ive had it for a year and its the first computer ive ever had in my entire life( i come from irish farmer hill folk so im sorry if im out of touch with technology):D
c. yes i can. but i assume you need other computer equipment to achieve this and i dont even so much as own a printer for my computer:D

didnt watch the videos i dont have a flash player in my puter either:D

Quick!!! To the Luddite-mobile!

We'll find a solution if we scratch out astronomical patterns on these stones!

:D

kwaichang
09-30-2009, 05:15 PM
So Go Ju hasnt seen anything really he is just making a judgement much like Taai from what he has heard or read not what little he has experienced. Which is more real a fist smashing your face from SD or a fist smashing your face from a Hung Gar stylist ? Either way you are knocked out. I guess they could leave a card so when you woke up you would know. KC

goju
09-30-2009, 05:55 PM
So Go Ju hasnt seen anything really he is just making a judgement much like Taai from what he has heard or read not what little he has experienced. Which is more real a fist smashing your face from SD or a fist smashing your face from a Hung Gar stylist ? Either way you are knocked out. I guess they could leave a card so when you woke up you would know. KC

lol what the hella re you going on about!!!??:eek::eek::D


i personally took sd as is known on this thread by the sd guys who tried to engage in keyboard bil jee with me im not a person who has only heard or read about the system

goju
09-30-2009, 05:57 PM
Quick!!! To the Luddite-mobile!

We'll find a solution if we scratch out astronomical patterns on these stones!

:D
lmao!!!:D:D

Mas Judt
09-30-2009, 05:59 PM
doesnt change the fact you made a fool out of yourself by your statements chinese didnt teach authentic martial arts to non chinese especially when your own style claims to be a taught from a monk to indonesian/ dutch brothers lol

contradictions are amusing are they not? :)

enjoy your watered down fu though cheers:D

Goju, honestly, I don't have time to explain to you how wrong you are. I don't care what you think. The slightest bit of actual research clearly demonstrates your lack of logical faculties. Good luck with it. I won't debate with kids.

Even the most ardent SDer has demonstrated more class, more style and more rationality (well except Willow when was an SDer) than you do. Not to mention the ability to stay on a point and examine it, versus jumping all over making ignorant statements.

All I've got to say, you just keep being you. It's punishment enough.

goju
09-30-2009, 06:38 PM
Goju, honestly, I don't have time to explain to you how wrong you are. I don't care what you think. The slightest bit of actual research clearly demonstrates your lack of logical faculties. Good luck with it. I won't debate with kids.

Even the most ardent SDer has demonstrated more class, more style and more rationality (well except Willow when was an SDer) than you do. Not to mention the ability to stay on a point and examine it, versus jumping all over making ignorant statements.

All I've got to say, you just keep being you. It's punishment enough.

Translation: i contradicted myself and dug myself into a hole so deep with my statements i have no idea how to talk my way out of it:D

Whos arguing? You took it upon yourself to attack me and karate in general with these completely idiotic statements you could not back up with any evidence no matter how many times i asked you to provide just that and you end up contradicting the claims of your own style with your comments. good job:D

I simply used your own logic against you and asked you a simple question and you get your panties in a knot over it because i dared question you


oh and btw nice job on putting me on ignore buddy

:D:D:D:D

brucereiter
09-30-2009, 08:27 PM
a, i do not have a digital camera nor do i have a clue what a usb plug in is
universal serial bus is what it is ... it is the little rectangular plug that almost all computer accessories use



b i have a mac:D and ive had it for a year and its the first computer ive ever had in my entire life( i come from irish farmer hill folk so im sorry if im out of touch with technology):D

good choice. i like macs best. do you know how old your mac is?
if it was made in the past few years everything you need is built in already



c. yes i can. but i assume you need other computer equipment to achieve this and i dont even so much as own a printer for my computer:D
all you need is a cheap little camera and the free software that come on your mac.




didnt watch the videos i dont have a flash player in my puter either:D
have you ever watched a youtube video?

it is almost 2010. my old mom has even figured these things out lol

goju
09-30-2009, 08:52 PM
universal serial bus is what it is ... it is the little rectangular plug that almost all computer accessories use


good choice. i like macs best. do you know how old your mac is?
if it was made in the past few years everything you need is built in already


all you need is a cheap little camera and the free software that come on your mac.



have you ever watched a youtube video?

it is almost 2010. my old mom has even figured these things out lol

i beleive its ten years old if not more i bought it used:D
no lol ive never watched a video on youtube

brucereiter
09-30-2009, 10:11 PM
i beleive its ten years old if not more i bought it used:D
no lol ive never watched a video on youtube

10 years old ... ok you cant do a lot of things with that lol ...

maybe its time to upgrade.

aside from martial arts youtube is awesome. so many things to watch on just about every subject you can imagine.

Tao Of The Fist
09-30-2009, 10:14 PM
Although you won't really be able to upload anything from a library computer without getting in trouble, you can still use it to do everything that your veteran mac probably couldn't, i.e watch youtube or print!! (usually 10-30 cents for every page after the first). Or better yet, you can use the power of the interlibrary loan program (if your library uses it) to check out super rare books from your house!:D (well, actually just to order them... you still gotta pick em up and check em out there.)

goju
09-30-2009, 10:29 PM
lol i just need to crawl out of the stone age and learn to use technology:D
for what its worth heres apic of me throwing a side kick and one of my knuckles from training the makiwara

SDJerry
10-01-2009, 05:01 AM
Shaolindo is as real and authentic as any other style as stated many times all MA are a conglomeration of styles etc GoJu , Shoto Kan Wing Chun Etc.

All martial arts are a conglomeration? I bet every SD player in here cringed when they saw you throw out that statement hehehe

kwaichang
10-01-2009, 05:53 AM
So lets recap:
1. You trained under the Soard school system , that represents maybe 15% of all of SD. The level of the practioners is questionable.
2. You achieved only what , blue or green belt level?
3. You sparred one guy who had not trained before and was a beginner.
4. You do not and have not seen anything on You tube.
5. To my knowledge you have not traveled to different areas and seen anyone else do, or compete against other SD people.
So you are somewhat limited by what you have seen to make a judgement as to how good something is or isnt. If you had a broader view point and more experience that may be different.
However,Feel free to talk about deforming knuckles and calcifiing your joints if you want.
We can also include Taai in this as he said he has never met a SD person at all. KC

kwaichang
10-01-2009, 05:59 AM
"ive been punching the makiwara for five years now with out any dit da jow and my knuckles look like this" By Goju

i kind of like them to look like this it makes me look tough lol!!!!!
Attached Images knuckles2.jpg (37.6 KB, 2 views)
Dont try to play piano KC

Judge Pen
10-01-2009, 06:01 AM
a, i do not have a digital camera nor do i have a clue what a usb plug in is
b i have a mac:D and ive had it for a year and its the first computer ive ever had in my entire life( i come from irish farmer hill folk so im sorry if im out of touch with technology):D
c. yes i can. but i assume you need other computer equipment to achieve this and i dont even so much as own a printer for my computer:D

didnt watch the videos i dont have a flash player in my puter either:D

I'm calling bs on the youtube. A couple of days ago, you posted a link to a youtube video of goju ryu iron body skills. :rolleyes:

kwaichang
10-01-2009, 07:03 AM
If that is so and it is then GoJU is just a liar oops youve been punked KC

Judge Pen
10-01-2009, 07:35 AM
He will say that he sent the link without looking at it (because he couldn't see it) or something like that....

BoulderDawg
10-01-2009, 08:39 AM
So lets recap:
1. You trained under the Soard school system , that represents maybe 15% of all of SD. The level of the practioners is questionable.
2. You achieved only what , blue or green belt level?
3. You sparred one guy who had not trained before and was a beginner.
4. You do not and have not seen anything on You tube.
5. To my knowledge you have not traveled to different areas and seen anyone else do, or compete against other SD people.
So you are somewhat limited by what you have seen to make a judgement as to how good something is or isnt. If you had a broader view point and more experience that may be different.
However,Feel free to talk about deforming knuckles and calcifiing your joints if you want.
We can also include Taai in this as he said he has never met a SD person at all. KC

Aside from the obvious legal problems they are having right now, The Soards and The' really need to step back a little and take a good look at the program they are running.

David and Sharon will say "Yeah we cut you some slack when testing for lower belt but once you test for black belt........" Total BS. I don't know for sure but I'd be willing to bet that no one has failed a test in over a decade. I've seen David step people through forms on a test!!!!!

I've also seen people testing from 3rd to 4th who were so out of shape they could not make it though one form without getting out of breath.

Maybe at once time the program was worth it but that was a long time ago.

kwaichang
10-01-2009, 09:01 AM
I agree I feel that once one has made 4th or 5th and has been a constant training member then they should be allowed to teac. They should be able to teach directly under GMT but go to an EM for their training or someone above them. Where the problem lies is giving EM an area and a teacher having to be directed by them. That makes it too controling.
As far as 3rd to 4th black I dont know anyone who can do that test w/o getting out of breath I dont care who you are. KC

BoulderDawg
10-01-2009, 09:28 AM
As far as 3rd to 4th black I dont know anyone who can do that test w/o getting out of breath I dont care who you are. KC

What does that have to do with anything? Did you read what I wrote?

Judge Pen
10-01-2009, 09:38 AM
Aside from the obvious legal problems they are having right now, The Soards and The' really need to step back a little and take a good look at the program they are running.

David and Sharon will say "Yeah we cut you some slack when testing for lower belt but once you test for black belt........" Total BS. I don't know for sure but I'd be willing to bet that no one has failed a test in over a decade. I've seen David step people through forms on a test!!!!!

I've also seen people testing from 3rd to 4th who were so out of shape they could not make it though one form without getting out of breath.

Maybe at once time the program was worth it but that was a long time ago.


But might that affect cash flow? I think a lot of schools get into that kind of rut because they are afraid of alienating the base of their business. It's not right, but it's a problem that is larger that The', the Soards, or the CSC.

As far as being out of breath while testing from 3rd to 4th, if that material is done properly, then one form will make you breath hard. But they should be able to do all the testing material hard and fast and crisp. If not, then they shouldn't be testing (imo anyway).

kwaichang
10-01-2009, 09:50 AM
Aside from the obvious legal problems they are having right now, The Soards and The' really need to step back a little and take a good look at the program they are running.

David and Sharon will say "Yeah we cut you some slack when testing for lower belt but once you test for black belt........" Total BS. I don't know for sure but I'd be willing to bet that no one has failed a test in over a decade. I've seen David step people through forms on a test!!!!!

I've also seen people testing from 3rd to 4th who were so out of shape they could not make it though one form without getting out of breath.

Maybe at once time the program was worth it but that was a long time ago.

I put in bold the area I was commenting on as well. KC

BoulderDawg
10-01-2009, 10:13 AM
I put in bold the area I was commenting on as well. KC


Can you read? How do you equate being out of shape, getting 30 seconds into you first form and being out of breath with " dont know anyone who can do that test w/o getting out of breath".

Where did you read that you could not get through the test without being out of breath?

I don't know, maybe you think someone who's 75 pounds overweight is equal to someone in good shape.

tattooedmonk
10-01-2009, 10:33 AM
that more than half of the CSC's schools are no longer listed on the main website?
No more new york, seattle , portland, las vegas, san jose, etc

goju
10-01-2009, 11:10 AM
I'm calling bs on the youtube. A couple of days ago, you posted a link to a youtube video of goju ryu iron body skills. :rolleyes:

um no how many time did i ask for people to tell me if it was the crorrect link? and as far as i know it was suppose to uechi ryu demonstration:D

goju
10-01-2009, 11:11 AM
"ive been punching the makiwara for five years now with out any dit da jow and my knuckles look like this" By Goju

i kind of like them to look like this it makes me look tough lol!!!!!
Attached Images knuckles2.jpg (37.6 KB, 2 views)
Dont try to play piano KC
??????:confused:

goju
10-01-2009, 11:19 AM
So lets recap:
1. You trained under the Soard school system , that represents maybe 15% of all of SD. The level of the practioners is questionable.
2. You achieved only what , blue or green belt level?
3. You sparred one guy who had not trained before and was a beginner.
4. You do not and have not seen anything on You tube.
5. To my knowledge you have not traveled to different areas and seen anyone else do, or compete against other SD people.
So you are somewhat limited by what you have seen to make a judgement as to how good something is or isnt. If you had a broader view point and more experience that may be different.
However,Feel free to talk about deforming knuckles and calcifiing your joints if you want.
We can also include Taai in this as he said he has never met a SD person at all. KC


1.Oh yeah what an excuse!!!!! the soards just misrepresent the real sd right!!!! Then as i said how come the reast of sd schools get the same complaints the csc does if its the soards who only teach it wrong?:D

2. if i can remember right i was a green

3. he was a brown belt when he sparred there fore he outranked me and according to you guys a sd white belt could easily take me apart:D

4. (shrugs) from the comments ive heard from posters here the majority of of its kids flailing at each other when they spar:D i dont know im missing much maybe i am

5.you know how many students the csc in boulder and denver had? not to mention they had sd guys from different parts of the usa stopping in to train i didnt see any difference from the sd practioners from anywhere else

BoulderDawg
10-01-2009, 11:36 AM
that more than half of the CSC's schools are no longer listed on the main website?
No more new york, seattle , portland, las vegas, san jose, etc

Mass revolt from all those school. My opinion is the same thing will happen in these schools that happened in Phoenix. That will just take time.

Honest to God though I am able to see both sides of this story. A lot of it has nothing to do with the legal problems. I think a large part of what's going on is the fact that the program has stagnated and needs reevaluated. Change is a btch! Because the Soards have been unwilling to change and adapt they are going to pay the price.

kwaichang
10-01-2009, 12:21 PM
I posted that about 3rd to 4th because you seem to say someone who tests for 4th should be able to do those forms w/o getting out of breath even on the 1st Hua. I say BS no one can do it right and not be OOB afterward or during. KC
Im trying to agree with ya man chill out

tattooedmonk
10-01-2009, 02:25 PM
Mass revolt from all those school. My opinion is the same thing will happen in these schools that happened in Phoenix. That will just take time.

Honest to God though I am able to see both sides of this story. A lot of it has nothing to do with the legal problems. I think a large part of what's going on is the fact that the program has stagnated and needs reevaluated. Change is a btch! Because the Soards have been unwilling to change and adapt they are going to pay the price.I figured as much..... CSC needs to reinvent it's self if it wants to survive . Soards worry to much about quantity instead of quality. I would rather have a bunch of good brown belts than a bunch of sh!tty black belts , that is what they have.......

We live in the 2000's now . MMA is rampant and training for real with live resisting opponents or not is what will make or break any school.

All the forms in the world will not make you a superior martial artist. Most of these people think the more forms and rank they have the better they are.......:rolleyes:The opposite is true.....

Iron Palm
10-01-2009, 05:31 PM
Hello all,

I apologize for the off-topic post but I don't know where else to put this.

Does anyone have any experience with Master Mingione's school in Indiana? If so please pm me, I am looking to relocate in the near future and have a few questions about the school.

shen ku
10-01-2009, 08:09 PM
he is one of the best overall masters in the system,,,,, thats just what i think. he is a great man and has a love for his training,,,,,,,,,,,

BUT ,,, he does not do the teaching there anymore it is one of his students... but from what i know of the master i would bet on the student being a very good teacher

tattooedmonk
10-01-2009, 09:25 PM
Hello all,

I apologize for the off-topic post but I don't know where else to put this.

Does anyone have any experience with Master Mingione's school in Indiana? If so please pm me, I am looking to relocate in the near future and have a few questions about the school.I heard he is a bad mofo, exceptionally good at Chue Pa Sien, Drunken Eight Immortals.

brucereiter
10-01-2009, 09:42 PM
5.you know how many students the csc in boulder and denver had? not to mention they had sd guys from different parts of the usa stopping in to train i didnt see any difference from the sd practioners from anywhere else

you must be interested since you keep posting here. i offered you videos of me doing several internal styles i learned from the csc in atlanta. if you were to take the time to watch you would find it is different than what you may have seen in other schools.
i am not saying i am better or worse than anyone but i do have a "understanding" of the material that some may not.

go to a library or internet cafe or try one of many computer stores who have their display models connected to the internet if you cant see it on your computer.
http://www.youtube.com/user/brucereiter

i have visited about 20 shaolin do schools around the country and have seen massively different variations of yang tai chi chuan (that is my "speciality") so that is the art i will address. i have seen some good and some that made me want to poke my eyes out. your statements are from a vary limited exposure.

this is not to say the system does not have many problems (its history!!!!)

knowledge is power.
educate yourself and then make comments. even better ask questions.

kungfujunky
10-01-2009, 10:16 PM
Elder Masters David and Sharon Soard,

This letter is to inform you that we, a group of concerned instructors, are disassociating from the Chinese Shao-Lin Centers. It is with sadness that we have witnessed the dissolution of a community that all of us have cared for deeply, but we feel that the recent legal charges against Elder Master David and your business practices with the coalition of schools leave us with no other viable option.

We see loyalty to the principles of Shaolin and loyalty to individual instructors as two different things that often, but do not always, coincide. Our primary interest is to uphold the values of the art of Shaolin Kung Fu as we transmit it to another generation, which we believe your actions have compromised our ability to do. Based on the mutlitple charges of non-consensual sexual contact against Elder Master David, as well as business practices such as a lack of openly addressing serious issues in your organization and required visit hosting with an unsustainable financial model for the hosting schools, we believe we have no choice but to cease our relationship with your system of schools in order to maintain our integrity and the sustainability of our schools.

We are forming an alliance of independent Shaolin Centers. We will no longer be financially or otherwise supporting the CSC system and will no longer host Elder Master visits. Please remove us from your Chinese Shao-Lin Center websites. We will be deleting the names of the Chinese Shao-Lin Centers under your management presently.

This choice was not easy to make. Your instruction and our involvement with the CSCs has been a positive influence in all our lives. Our actions are not motivated by any malice toward you, but by our passion to preserve the true spirit of Shaolin and improve the development of both ours and future generations' quality of training and skill. Studying Shaolin is not about becoming living encyclopedias of Shaolin material, it is about developing as human beings. As we add stripes to our belts, we are also striving to add honesty, courage, generosity, patience, humility, compassion and a calm decisiveness in the face of challenge to the way we relate to our communities. To us, this is the true, balanced aim of our training, and one which we are excercising in this decision to separate from your system of schools.

Sincerely,

Master John Keller
Head Instructor Boise, ID Shaolin Center

Thad Wong
Head Instructor New York, NY Shaolin Center

Russ Lesko
Head Instructor Caldwell, ID Shaolin Center

Joe Wieland
Head Instructor Portland, OR Shaolin Center

Chris Peterson
Head Instructor Emmet, ID Shaolin Center

Associate Master Matt Small
Head Instructor Las Vegas, NV Shaolin Center

Laura Adams
Jacob Rydberg
Head Instructors Phoenix/Tempe, AZ Shaolin Center

Sarah Yoffe
Head Instructor Seattle, WA Shaolin Center

Chris Zurich
Head Instructor San Jose, CA Shaolin Center

goju
10-01-2009, 10:37 PM
it is heres comments form the web on sd schools outside of colorado

posted by davey bones

Shaolin-Do has a very dodgy rep. There were a couple of members who practiced it (Socrastein comes to mind), and they said the atmosphere of the school is very cultish. No outside training, no outside training materials, and some of the upper belts have a cult-like adoration for the head honcho. There is also a lot of concern about the validity of the style, some say it's a mish-mash.

I'd check it out if I were you; thus far, Shaolin-Do seems to have a very bad rep...

Originally Posted by Skummer

Sadly, I must agree. Though I believe Sin The claims to have recieved GM status in his late 20's.

I have a peculiar perspective on this issue since I was a shaolindo student for a few years. During that time I learnt very little actually useful things, but I did learn lots of forms. I became fed up with unrealistic training, so I put a notice on the bulletin board at the school asking for people to spar and/or practice technique in a realistic manner. One black belt said he'd push hands with me, and that's it. 2 weeks later I quit and started judo.

I'm torn here because, while I agree the lineage is bogus and the training is less than adequate, I grew to enjoy the company of many in the system. The sifu at the school I attended is of the highest character and I consider him a friend. It makes me very sad to boldly say the system is bogus since he and others love & devote so much time to it.

goju
10-01-2009, 11:00 PM
hedge hogey

"The Austin, TX school were doing nothing but forms and very light contact sparring when I visited them, when they weren't kiddy fiddling."

artard
edit: I also wouldn't dispute that from the limited contact I've had with him that Sin The seems to be a pretty big wanker and also a pathalogical liar, but I left that out of my original post because I was trying not to be too inflammitory (at least at first).

:Originally Posted by garbanzobean

Listen to this guy. I live in KY, which is basically the origin of the scam. Both of my roommates were/are taken in by it. Both are black belts, I believe. THE ARE TEH DEADLY. All I hear out of them is "This is a war art, you would never use this on a person unless you wanted to kill them . . . " how they know this is beyond me, as NO ONE EVER SHOWED ME ANY PROOF OF PEOPLE DYING BY GETTING OPEN-HAND SLAPPED IN THE RIBS.

BoulderDawg
10-01-2009, 11:11 PM
Elder Masters David and Sharon Soard,

This letter is to inform you.......................

I've read the letter. I guess the question is "Now what?" Of course the Soards are not going to be able to staff and open nine schools all at once. I'm guessing this wil take a while and probably not all schools will reopen.

I guess a larger question is "Will Sin The' bow to the pressure of this group and allow it to exist under his name or will he do like he did in Phoenix and kick the instructors out and send them cease and desist letters......stay tuned folks!!!!!

What I found interesting here was the complaints about the business practices. The instructors knew full well what they were getting into before they accepted the position. Granted the excitement of running your own school makes you a little blind about money but you still have to do things like pay the rent. But I guess if you're going to complain now is as good time as any.:D

Also, what's going to happen if The' says "Fine you guys can break away". Well for one thing the schools that are left, unless they just absolutely worship the Soards, are going to want the same deal because of the money involved. For all intent purposes if The' allows these school to separate from the Soards that will, more or less, be the final nail in the coffin for them. They cannot survive with just the Boulder and Denver schools. Especially now that everyone in Colorado knows they are ran by a convicted sex offender.

Tao Of The Fist
10-01-2009, 11:22 PM
When I was a member of Shaolin Do, I loved being with the people at the CSC here in Vegas. Everybody was very nice, very friendly and almost like a family. When we got together for testing or a seminar (festival, whatever they called it...) we always had a good time. My best friend I met there. :D

However, like he said, the training never satisfied me because it never felt authentic, and sometimes it was very cultish. Veganism was a major thing that they encouraged, almost to the point of subliminal messaging ( "So when you perform this techique [support PETA], make sure you bend your knee [meat contains cow crap and plutonium] in a 90 degree angle..." :p )

goju
10-01-2009, 11:41 PM
tamim ka
I an also say that I interviewed Master Sin for a school papaer in HS, and ask him about many of these thngs. For photos and some form of proof. He fained indignant, but then admitted that his knowledge of Grandmaster Su came primarily from stories told him by Grandmaster E. So he may be a victim of the myth himself. Yet, it doesnt explain where the photos come from....

tamim ka
I was a Shaolin-Do shodan who trained with Master Bob Green. I also had questions about the Great Grandmaster Su. In an article in Black Belt mag about Sin The, a comment was made by Jane Halloway that the tie Su is wearing looks more from the 40's to 50's. I can also tell you that Grandmaster The had quite a reputation in Lexington. He was known for his big living. He got in trouble with the authorities for filling his wave pool at his Sportscenter (which filed bankruptcy in the late 80's) with illegal water he obtained from a fire hydrant. His brother and he had a major falling out, and most of Sins students despised him as ****y anyway. e used to bow to people by flicking his pencil. (Told to me personally by one of the Masters.)

goju
10-01-2009, 11:47 PM
zapatismo
i joined shoalin do when i was a pre teen and the whole atmosphere sucked me in and i fell for all thier b.s. i found out the hard way that shaolin do wasnt that effective tho because i walked around with an inflated sense of skill and this made me arrogant i ended up fighting a wrestler cuz i thought wrestling was b.s. and couldnt stand up to shaolin do long story short i was wrong. next i got in a fight with a boxer and i thought cuz it would be standing that i would win cuz i knew kicks i got koed in prolly half a minute (lucky i didnt get seriously injured from both altercations). those two experinces got me thinking seriously about joining boxing or some more competiton oriented styles.
after a couple more scraps i noticed that these "skills" werent helping at all and i started boxing a couple weeks after my 14th birthday. /rant
im glad i found this thread and am not surprised that it is here i also noticed a couple posters on here that i know. im glad that there are people here exposing this stuff it definetley gave me some closure on this.

kicker64
Just as a side note to the way things work. You'll rarely see anyone stay very long who gets very close in rank to Leonard. His ego is too big. If their ability is a threat, they'll be gone long before that. He controls Sin's rank advancements. The only reason Dave and Sharon and some of the other came as far as they did is because of the size of their schools. They essentially "bought" it. The threat of them pulling out of SDA outweighted Leonard's objections to their rank advancement. They are by no means "worthy" of 8th degrees in anyone's book.

goju
10-01-2009, 11:53 PM
stony
I began Shaolin-Do in the early 1980s when I was 13. Living in Kentucky, even then, SD seemed to be everywhere. I trained until I was about 20 and then re-joined for about 4 months several years ago. What possessed me to re-start in SD amazes me. In the interrum, I had trained some in Goju-Ryu and Shotokan, and after experiencing more authentic instruction SD was like the Twilight Zone. I think I felt I just wanted some exercise, and I did not care really whether any of it was effective. I was wrong. The crap level was so high, it was amazing. Most of the folk buy wholeheartedly into the Sin The is a great, living treasure of knowledge. I attended one of his special "forms" seminars a number of years ago. The man stopped repeatedly to check his notes, made errors that he then brushed off by laughing about, and clearly did not know the material. I have had personal training in the classes of Sin The, Master Leonard, and many others, from their schools in several places around the country. The style is pathetic.


*

brucereiter
10-02-2009, 12:47 AM
goju,

some of the people you just quoted we 14 years old. you should get some more first hand accounts. from what i have seen even from the worst shaolin do schools there are a few people who shine and seem to get it in spite of the history and the massive number of forms etc. even at my old school here in atlanta you have a wide variation of how things are done. there are several people here in atlanta who i think have some pretty good tai chi chuan skills and if you put them side by side to do the form if there are 5 people there you will see 5 different forms that are all good, at the same time there are people who have no clue about tai chi who have done it for years.

what is your point?
what is your goal here?
why do you care about shaolin do?
.
:rolleyes:

goju
10-02-2009, 01:23 AM
Yeah they were fourteen years old when they started sd they are adults now:D Not to mention most people start in their teens so i dont see your point unless your trying to claim they couldnt possibily know anything because of their age which of course is just rediculous:D As for first hand accounts i studied sd myself and i highly doubt these people i quoted simply made this up because they have some grudge against sd

My point is its not just the soard schools who have had these complaints its all of them:D so the claims that the csc is simply the only branch of sd that is giving it a bad name are false they all have come under the same scrutiny in fact many of the biggest complaints come from people who used to study there

My point is sd is baloney, they are robbing folks of their money, and to scam people using the shaolin name is sacreligious(and this is my biggest problem with sd):D

my goal is to warn anyone who is about to happen into the sd world about what they are getting themselves into:D

kwaichang
10-02-2009, 04:16 AM
Goju who stopped and made you God? No one. You have posted maybe 10 peoples negative coments of all the SD people training and that is less than .01% so you have very little effect or influence. SD didnt have what you want so you are upset and feel like you wasted your money. Thats OK. But for you to be so closed minded. Any business is going to have complaints, any style as well. I have heard the same comments about GoJu , Shotokan Wado TaeKwon Do and others. Your ajenda isnt new it is quite old.
I agree with what the instructors are doing to break away from Soard is the right thing I too am watching the outcome of this, I feel GMT should recognise the instructors as a new entity my self. KC

tattooedmonk
10-02-2009, 07:59 AM
why do you guys even bother with this douche bag?? Are you that bored???:eek::p:rolleyes::D