Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[brucereiter]

My point is sd is baloney, they are robbing folks of their money, and to scam people using the shaolin name is sacreligious(and this is my biggest problem with sd):D

my goal is to warn anyone who is about to happen into the sd world about what they are getting themselves into:D

hey i agree with you about some of the bull****. i would say the majority of sd people have very little understanding of martial arts but i have seen from each of the distinct groups of shaolin do that some people in the group do have very good understanding of martial arts.

i wish sin the' was open and honest about history and did not use so many "stories" and legends. adults for the most part do not care about those things.

i wish sin the would talk about the central plains wushu school where he learned martial arts.

i also wish the whole learn 900 forms thing went away. one of the main reasons i left is i did not want to learn more forms that have no meaning or depth.

but... ... ... .. .. .. .. .. ...... . . .. . .. ..
your blanket statements could be insulting to those of us who do have skills.
there are many in sd that have "it" and even more that do not. i think this is similar to most schools

[brucereiter]

why do you guys even bother with this douche bag?? Are you that bored???:eek::p:rolleyes::D

you can type douche bag ubt i cant type bull****?

board.

[goju]

Goju who stopped and made you God? No one. You have posted maybe 10 peoples negative coments of all the SD people training and that is less than .01% so you have very little effect or influence. SD didnt have what you want so you are upset and feel like you wasted your money. Thats OK. But for you to be so closed minded. Any business is going to have complaints, any style as well. I have heard the same comments about GoJu , Shotokan Wado TaeKwon Do and others. Your ajenda isnt new it is quite old.
I agree with what the instructors are doing to break away from Soard is the right thing I too am watching the outcome of this, I feel GMT should recognise the instructors as a new entity my self. KC
lol do you want me to keep posting more comments from from former sd students?:D
ic oudl fill this thread up with apges on end

[goju]

hey i agree with you about some of the bull****. i would say the majority of sd people have very little understanding of martial arts but i have seen from each of the distinct groups of shaolin do that some people in the group do have very good understanding of martial arts.

i wish sin the' was open and honest about history and did not use so many "stories" and legends. adults for the most part do not care about those things.

i wish sin the would talk about the central plains wushu school where he learned martial arts.

i also wish the whole learn 900 forms thing went away. one of the main reasons i left is i did not want to learn more forms that have no meaning or depth.

but... ... ... .. .. .. .. .. ...... . . .. . .. ..
your blanket statements could be insulting to those of us who do have skills.
there are many in sd that have "it" and even more that do not. i think this is similar to most schools

oh i agree there allways will be some allright practioners faceplam for example was good giving the place he was in in fact that was the best sd practioner i sparred with including the black belts there

[goju]

you can type douche bag ubt i cant type bull****?

board.

you cant even say **** on this board:eek:

[godzillakungfu]

The one thing people should take away from this is, get a lawyer and pay to have them peruse a contract.

While the blame lays at the feet of the instructors, the Soards are very good at twisting the words.

They convinced me to sign one, I never signed another before I quit.

[ShaolinGirl]

why do you guys even bother with this douche bag?? Are you that bored???:eek::p:rolleyes::D

Seriously. KC is such a little girl that he has to sneak a message to me regarding some biblical judging crap instead of doing it out in the open.

[BoulderDawg]

This guy reminds me of a rapid college football fan that's so wrapped up in the hatred of a rival team that the only thing he roots for is for the other team to lose.:D

SD/CSC is NOT trying to cheat students. If nothing else you get to train with some good people and get a little conditioning. At as low as $35 a month you can't beat it. Too bad all of this had to happen.

[Tao Of The Fist]

hey i agree with you about some of the bull****. i would say the majority of sd people have very little understanding of martial arts but i have seen from each of the distinct groups of shaolin do that some people in the group do have very good understanding of martial arts.

i wish sin the' was open and honest about history and did not use so many "stories" and legends. adults for the most part do not care about those things.

i wish sin the would talk about the central plains wushu school where he learned martial arts.

i also wish the whole learn 900 forms thing went away. one of the main reasons i left is i did not want to learn more forms that have no meaning or depth.

but... ... ... .. .. .. .. .. ...... . . .. . .. ..
your blanket statements could be insulting to those of us who do have skills.
there are many in sd that have "it" and even more that do not. i think this is similar to most schools

Hey, to be honest I thought I knew what I was talking about when I was in shaolin do. I'm one of those people who do their research, so I should've known better, but ignorance is a powerful thing. When you are in a school that only makes contact with it's own, you start believing that its history, techniques, and whatever are absolute and that everything else doesn't apply. I felt so stupid afterwards... :confused:

Hey, I love martial legends and stories, what are you talking 'bout?? You trying to tell me that I'm not grown up? ....No I'm not , but I'm damm proud of it. :D Yeah, your right that most adults don't care about such things but that doesn't take away from the fact that chinese mythology and legends make up important part of the culture of martial arts, almost (if not as important) as the history. But GM Sin Th'e uses them in place of history way too often, which leads to misunderstandings which leads to IGNORANCE! :eek:

I would definitely love to hear about his learning experiences at central plains.

The whole 900 forms thing is ridiculous and should be reevaluated. Even if they were going to attempt such things they should group the forms according to the style (10 essential forms for each style excluding weapons, or something like that) but we all know that's not going to happen.

Hey, I've got skills that I obtained from SD... I mastered the horse stance, the bow stance and the bow stance while reading! Now I'm trying to figure out how to stance and talk at the same time... :p

[goju]

Seriously. KC is such a little girl that he has to sneak a message to me regarding some biblical judging crap instead of doing it out in the open.

you should see his racist threads he was making about jews and blacks a while back along with threats his family has membership in the kkk:D

[brucereiter]

Hey, to be honest I thought I knew what I was talking about when I was in shaolin do. I'm one of those people who do their research, so I should've known better, but ignorance is a powerful thing. When you are in a school that only makes contact with it's own, you start believing that its history, techniques, and whatever are absolute and that everything else doesn't apply. I felt so stupid afterwards... :confused:

Hey, I love martial legends and stories, what are you talking 'bout?? You trying to tell me that I'm not grown up? ....No I'm not , but I'm damm proud of it. :D Yeah, your right that most adults don't care about such things but that doesn't take away from the fact that chinese mythology and legends make up important part of the culture of martial arts, almost (if not as important) as the history. But GM Sin Th'e uses them in place of history way too often, which leads to misunderstandings which leads to IGNORANCE! :eek:

I would definitely love to hear about his learning experiences at central plains.

The whole 900 forms thing is ridiculous and should be reevaluated. Even if they were going to attempt such things they should group the forms according to the style (10 essential forms for each style excluding weapons, or something like that) but we all know that's not going to happen.

Hey, I've got skills that I obtained from SD... I mastered the horse stance, the bow stance and the bow stance while reading! Now I'm trying to figure out how to stance and talk at the same time... :p

i keep hearing people talk about

>>When you are in a school that only makes contact with it's own, you start believing that its history, techniques, and whatever are absolute and that everything else doesn't apply. I felt so stupid afterwards... :confused:<<

my teacher said "you must train and touch hands with as many people as you can to really understand ma. from day 1 of my training at the csc atlanta i trained with people outside of the system with the blessing of my teacher. i never hid it and many times talked to him about what i had seen or felt.

in maybe 1998 0r 99 a student who was very sr to me said that the 24 tai chi form was a old old form and is "exactly what the shaolin monks practiced" i asked my teacher about it and he said it was the most popular tai chi form in the world and sin the learned it from a friend in bandung and thought it had some value so taught it to him students. i do not know how the atl csc student came to the ideas he had when as far as i could tell my teacher was not telling any of the legends.

i think i did have a very different experience than most sd students.

[kwaichang]

Shaolin Girl and GoJU you are both liars I did not pm you or Goju and made no such comments as Go ju states, Go Ju you are such a pus%$ you deserve your stupid self KC

[kwaichang]

So Shaolin Girl but you really should look at youir self you are a joke get a life KC

[-木叶-]

I just happen to pass by and see this thread and...

In chinese... Shaolin Do becomes 少林道

This is strange in Chinese, because... Shaolin is Buddhism, and Tao is Taoism.
And Shaolin Do is a very confusing word in chinese!

In real world scenario, Shaolin is a school by it self, and Taoism has its own school
in Wudang 武当 for example.

Shaolin monks say 修成正果(attain enlightenment)， they dont say 得道成仙 (道here meaning the "Do" in SD, it means Attain Tao and becomes a Deity)


so...
gathers up my big round straw hat and rag bag and continues to travel down
the path

[Tao Of The Fist]

i keep hearing people talk about

>>When you are in a school that only makes contact with it's own, you start believing that its history, techniques, and whatever are absolute and that everything else doesn't apply. I felt so stupid afterwards... :confused:<<

my teacher said "you must train and touch hands with as many people as you can to really understand ma. from day 1 of my training at the csc atlanta i trained with people outside of the system with the blessing of my teacher. i never hid it and many times talked to him about what i had seen or felt.

in maybe 1998 0r 99 a student who was very sr to me said that the 24 tai chi form was a old old form and is "exactly what the shaolin monks practiced" i asked my teacher about it and he said it was the most popular tai chi form in the world and sin the learned it from a friend in bandung and thought it had some value so taught it to him students. i do not know how the atl csc student came to the ideas he had when as far as i could tell my teacher was not telling any of the legends.

i think i did have a very different experience than most sd students.

I think that's awesome and I wish my school had been more like that. My school was a subschool of the Soards though, not Grooms or Mullins so I don't know how differently things are run. In retrospect, I wish I had sparred with people outside of my school, which I was only able to when I went on my own. I don't know how anyone got the idea that the 24 form or the Cheng Man Ching 37 were 'temple forms.' :confused:

[goju]

Shaolin Girl and GoJU you are both liars I did not pm you or Goju and made no such comments as Go ju states, Go Ju you are such a pus%$ you deserve your stupid self KC
so hows that trip to colorado coming in november?:D

[kwaichang]

Glad you remembered you lieing sack of escrement , working on the finances as we speak , I hope you have a good insurance policy. You little p KC

[tattooedmonk]

So Shaolin Girl but you really should look at youir self you are a joke get a life KCHey KC , relax bro. I saw the visitor message that said it was from you posted in her visitor messages. I think a few of the mods or people that have access mess with this board a lot to see what private conversations people have with each other......

[goju]

Glad you remembered you lieing sack of escrement , working on the finances as we speak , I hope you have a good insurance policy. You little p KC
so your boss at burger king will let you off for a few days then... good:D
as far as your other statement all i have to say is..
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

falls on floor laughing

[tattooedmonk]

I got a lot out of SD/ CSC. I met many cool people and a few who know exactly what is what. The history is meh. I do not care . What I did like is the available material from one source . I am the type of person that researches , studies and practices without needing to be spoon fed the material. A few people here obviously needed to have their hand held through every stage of training. I know what some of you say is complete and utter BUll$h!t and could give a $h!t less what you think. I have been disassociated with the organization for over 5 years now but still support GMT , practice the art and have the backs of all of my brothers and sisters in the art.

[kwaichang]

Dont recall I checked my out going messages and didnt see it if it is so , well OOPs KC

[kwaichang]

Sorry SG but my statement of Go Ju still stands KC

[kwaichang]

WEll Go Go I mean Go Ju at least I have a job and am not mooching off a woman as you are BTW you should get used to falling on the floor it will be 2nd nature for you KC

[goju]

WEll Go Go I mean Go Ju at least I have a job and am not mooching off a woman as you are BTW you should get used to falling on the floor it will be 2nd nature for you KC

your like a metally handicapped energizer bunny , wind you up and you just keep going and going and going....:D

nothing wrong with being a mimbo

[kwaichang]

Should tell you a little about my fighting style , pressure baby pressure. oh yeah man oh yeah KC

[goju]

Should tell you a little about my fighting style , pressure baby pressure. oh yeah man oh yeah KC
um what?:confused:

[tattooedmonk]

Should tell you a little about my fighting style , pressure baby pressure. oh yeah man oh yeah KCLMAO!!!:eek::p;):cool::D

[brucereiter]

. I don't know how anyone got the idea that the 24 form or the Cheng Man Ching 37 were 'temple forms.' :confused:

as many young students do they look for books to supplement what they are learning. and when i joined the school i was a "internal only student" so for ht e first 2 years i only learned yang 64 form. i looked at every tai chi book i could find and i did not see anything that matched up until i came across cheng man chings book. when i asked my teacher he said he did not know. then he said he did not think it was cmc as it was different than some cmc form he had seem but in the end he said he did not know. i never though it came from old monks or what ever and i really wanted to know its history so i dug and dug and found out as much as i could about sin the and about tai chi. i found that sin the allowed or out right gave mis-information regarding tai chi chuan.
i do however unpopular it may be to some people think sin the' did learn the yang 64 from his teacher as a teen or early 20's based on all of the evidence available to me.

but i also think he has "left things out" "lied" "stretched the truth" and "flat out made things up" about much of the various arts history, his own history, his teachers history and his teachers teachers history. that is sad since he really does seem like a nice man and is very fast and in great shape. i wish him well though.

[brucereiter]

. I don't know how anyone got the idea that the 24 form or the Cheng Man Ching 37 were 'temple forms.' :confused:

this is second hand information so you know how that can go but i was told that the soards were the first to say those tai chi forms were from the shaolin temple.

i could be wrong and if i am i retract that statement.

[BoulderDawg]

I did the 24 combined form until I was blue in the face. Probably David or Sharon or both mentioned the origins but to honest I didn't really give a S........still don't!:eek:

My favorite BS was about the 49 postures!:D

"Some instructors have up to 30 of them but we have all 49!!!!!"

The Soards made it sounds like a valuable collection of something! Like the art of putting your leg behind your head has been lost!:rolleyes:

[goju]

I did the 24 combined form until I was blue in the face. Probably David or Sharon or both mentioned the origins but to honest I didn't really give a S........still don't!:eek:

My favorite BS was about the 49 postures!:D

"Some instructors have up to 30 of them but we have all 49!!!!!"

The Soards made it sounds like a valuable collection of something! Like the art of putting your leg behind your head has been lost!:rolleyes:

did they do the yang forms too fast and used really loud forceful inhaling and exhaling like they did when i was there?

[brucereiter]

My favorite BS was about the 49 postures!:D

"Some instructors have up to 30 of them but we have all 49!!!!!"


i know! that struck me as funny too. all the crap aout how they "preserved" all 49.

i have found several different systems of i chin ching/yijinjing and some have been only 12 postures and one of the systems i have seen had over 100 i chin ching postures.

it is i think a very old practice but it is not i think a specific system.

[One student]

i keep hearing people talk about

>>When you are in a school that only makes contact with it's own, you start believing that its history, techniques, and whatever are absolute and that everything else doesn't apply. I felt so stupid afterwards... :confused:<<

my teacher said "you must train and touch hands with as many people as you can to really understand ma. from day 1 of my training at the csc atlanta i trained with people outside of the system with the blessing of my teacher. i never hid it and many times talked to him about what i had seen or felt.

in maybe 1998 0r 99 a student who was very sr to me said that the 24 tai chi form was a old old form and is "exactly what the shaolin monks practiced" i asked my teacher about it and he said it was the most popular tai chi form in the world and sin the learned it from a friend in bandung and thought it had some value so taught it to him students. i do not know how the atl csc student came to the ideas he had when as far as i could tell my teacher was not telling any of the legends.

i think i did have a very different experience than most sd students.

For some reason I feel compelled to give a different perspective.

I started martial arts at 14, mid 70's, in tae kwon do, learned from a Vietnam combat vet, who was also a SD blackbelt. Progressed to brown belt, started SD. Participated or visited at least 5 different SD schools/teachers overall. During the same time, participated in judo, ninjitsu, and tien shien pai. I do not think I have a jaded perspective. Saw a wide variety of teaching and instruction methods. Was surprised at how much similarity there was from SD to the tien shien pai school, especially in internal forms both taught. And the variety was very wide. Some pitiful, all the way to amazing. Everywhere. There are those in SD, especially in what I would call the first or second generation of GMT's students, that can hold their own with anyone and who's skills equal or surpass anyone I've ever seen in martial arts, in person, TV, or internet. Others are embarrassing. What it comes down to is there can be no doubt GMT knows more about martial arts than most people, and he teaches some of it to others. Where it comes from only he really knows. But I have benefitted from it, and more so because I have studied independently and from other sources. One very popular author professes the method of not spoon feeding a student, but give them tools, and MAKE them figure it out, as the only way to truly learn anything.

[bodhi warrior]

I learned yang 64 from GM sin back in 1985 at the sportscenter. And I can tell you he never mentioned anything about it being temple style. The history he told us was mostly about Yang lu chan. Back then it was just called yang taichi not even yang 64. And this was the only empty hand taichi form we had. There wasn't a 24, or chen. He never even mentioned he knew a chen style.

And I would agree with one student. The first generations of SD had some very talented people. And part of the reasons for that, I think, was because of a more focused curriculum. There just wasn't an abundance of forms. You focused on a few external sets, then tai chi and pakua, meditation. Not to mention lots of sparring and physical conditioning. But we americans always want more, and are willing to pay for it. GM sin saw an opportunity and ran with it. Sad.

[Mas Judt]

The real question is... for all these forms... have the people teaching it mastered all the relevant jibengong, qigong, equipment and two partner skills for eaxch of these systems so that they can say they truly undertand them and can 'preserve' them?

This should be an obvious question to answer and perhaps the biggest challenge SD has in making its case. (Besides the fanciful history.)

However, things aren't as cut and dried and many 'traditional' systems - especially JMA and KMA have just as messed up stuff gong on. Oh, and some CMA too. Doesn't mean I agree with the SD line, but just taking a broader view.

[tattooedmonk]

How are we all doing today???

[bodhi warrior]

Just read the letter from sin the' to some instructors kicking them out. it's on that other bovine ma forum. Disgusting.

[tattooedmonk]

Just read the letter from sin the' to some instructors kicking them out. it's on that other bovine ma forum. Disgusting.where is this???Bull-shido??

[bodhi warrior]

The real question is... for all these forms... have the people teaching it mastered all the relevant jibengong, qigong, equipment and two partner skills for eaxch of these systems so that they can say they truly undertand them and can 'preserve' them?

This should be an obvious question to answer and perhaps the biggest challenge SD has in making its case. (Besides the fanciful history.)

However, things aren't as cut and dried and many 'traditional' systems - especially JMA and KMA have just as messed up stuff gong on. Oh, and some CMA too. Doesn't mean I agree with the SD line, but just taking a broader view.

There are a handful. And almost all are from way back. Most of the master level teachers that I have seen today do not have any knowledge of the principles that make these arts what they are.

[bodhi warrior]

where is this???Bull-shido??

yes. the name of the thread is "my experience with shaolin do"

[tattooedmonk]

yes. the name of the thread is "my experience with shaolin do"I got it ... I have to say I am not surprised . This letter was sent out prior to the other independant schools forming an alliance. I am interested to see how this all unfolds...... from what I understand 2 of the instructors have quit all together.

[kwaichang]

OK I have searched all over for this supposed letter but Bullshido has to be the worst forum to find stuff on. Anyway please post a link Thanks KC

[tattooedmonk]

OK I have searched all over for this supposed letter but Bullshido has to be the worst forum to find stuff on. Anyway please post a link Thanks KC

Jacob and Laura

This letter is to inform you, that as of August 26th, 2009 your privileges to teach the Shao-Lin Art (the Art), and any further participation within the Art in any capacity is hereby revoked.

As the current Grandmaster of Shao-Lin, I withdraw your permission to teach the Art, the forms and movements within the Art copyrighted by me.

I also withdraw your use of any likeness of me, any reference to me on your website, flyers, brochures, publications, etc.

If you continue to use the art, forms, techniques, material or trade secrets, graphics or images relating to the Shao-Lin Art, I will pursue legal action to ensure that you cease and desist.

I hope this letter is perfectly clear that you are to discontinue all use of the Art of Shao-Lin and my name and images. Also cease all contact with me and any of my certified, affiliated schools and instructors.

This will be the last form of contact you will receive from me personally.

Sincerely,
[signature]
Grandmaster Sin Kwang The'

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27115&page=30&highlight=shaolin

[BoulderDawg]

Things might not always be what they appear to be. Get all the information that you can before making any decisions.

To be honest I would really like to hear the Soards and The's side of this story. However they are chosing not to talk.

[Tao Of The Fist]

If the letter is doctored or fake, and these instructors have not been kicked out, then I will gladly eat crow. At this point, however, silence is dam n ing.

Despite the fact that crow is delicious, I know for fact that they indeed have at least been kicked out of the CSC system, and I'm pretty sure that as you said, GM Th'e's silence on the subject is "dam.ning". I would like to hear what the other side has to say on the subject, however c.ockamamey their explanations might be.

[tattooedmonk]

are sticking together whether GMT absorbs them or not. If GMT allows everyone except Jacob and Laura to be absorbed then the Renegades are going to go on their own.:eek:

[tattooedmonk]

this has more to do with the business practices of the Soards and not about the legal case against DS.........that was the final straw

[brucereiter]

The real question is... for all these forms... have the people teaching it mastered all the relevant jibengong, qigong, equipment and two partner skills for eaxch of these systems so that they can say they truly undertand them and can 'preserve' them?


with the exception of yang tai chi i was never taught or told about and basic training methods for any of the other material. the were just forms and what ever you could figure out and learn from outside sources. this is a huge problem.

[Tao Of The Fist]

this has more to do with the business practices of the Soards and not about the legal case against DS.........that was the final straw

Is there any specifics? I read the letter and of course they mention not being open about issues and the required elder master visits, but what specifically?

[BoulderDawg]

I don't think The' has much of a choice. He has to disassociate from the nine schools considering what he has already done in Phoenix. If he backs down then that's going to cause him mucho problems in the future.

In any case, especially since this nine school letter has surfaced, I wonder why they haven't said anything before. Apparently they've had problems for years and they only mention it now using a sex scandal as a bargaining tool????

I don't really have any use for either group. Maybe the students at these schools will wise up and go elsewhere.

[tattooedmonk]

Is there any specifics? I read the letter and of course they mention not being open about issues and the required elder master visits, but what specifically?Yes , there is . I am not at liberty to say at this point as to what I heard other than what I have already provided......I have talked to a few people on all sides and I have to say this is one big clusterf-uck!!!

[Tao Of The Fist]

Yes , there is . I am not at liberty to say at this point as to what I heard other than what I have already provided......I have talked to a few people on all sides and I have to say this is one big clusterf-uck!!!

could you PM me any info? I understand if you can't but I would appreciate it sho' nuff if you could...

[tattooedmonk]

I don't think The' has much of a choice. He has to disassociate from the nine schools considering what he has already done in Phoenix. If he backs down then that's going to cause him mucho problems in the future.

In any case, especially since this nine school letter has surfaced, I wonder why they haven't said anything before. Apparently they've had problems for years and they only mention it now using a sex scandal as a bargaining tool????

I don't really have any use for either group. Maybe the students at these schools will wise up and go elsewhere.He has a choice.

It is one thing to loose a school or a few students but 10 instructors in 9 schools....covering the whole west??

Lets see ..... Oregon , Washington, Idaho , California, Nevada, Arizona. Not failing to mention NY....

If Master Sin is the person I believe he is then he can apologize and reinstate them based on new evidence. IMHO

All this crap that has been going in the CSCs for a long time. I have a list:eek::D

I believe that most people that were involved in these issues before just moved on or went to the east coast schools.


No one has stood up to them like this before....

[tattooedmonk]

could you PM me any info? I understand if you can't but I would appreciate it sho' nuff if you could...Out of respect and loyalty to my fellow brothers and sister in the art , I cant. When I can, I will post it here first......

[Tao Of The Fist]

Well, considering the fact that many of these schools provided the main branches with a sizable amount of their income (not to mention some pocket change for GM Th'e), I think that he will probably recognize these schools as part of his system but separate from CSC. The Arizona school, however, is something that I'm not sure of. His letter to them made it seem absolute, but who knows? He might change his descision on a whim...

I understand and give you props, TM. ;)

[BoulderDawg]

No one has stood up to them like this before....

You mean no one dared to until David became a convicted sex offender. Wow, what a stroke of luck for those guys!:D

In any case I think the same thing that happened in Phoenix will happen at these nine schools. It will just take a little longer and all of the schools might not reopen.

In any case if these are truly serious about wanting to be "Independent" then why do they need The"?

[Tao Of The Fist]

You mean no one dared to until David became a convicted sex offender. Wow, what a stroke of luck for those guys!:D

In any case I think the same thing that happened in Phoenix will happen at these nine schools. It will just take a little longer and all of the schools might not reopen.

In any case if these are truly serious about wanting to be "Independent" then why do they need The"?

Because I believe they want to be part of SD without being affiliated with CSC. If Sin Th'e owns the copyright on the art, supposedly, then they can't practice his art without his consent. They don't want to get into legal trouble, although if arizona is still teaching they might. Anyways that might be the case, that might not be... we just gotta keep watching this soap opera to find out.

[BoulderDawg]

Because I believe they want to be part of SD without being affiliated with CSC.

Don't we all. Do you think it's just as simple as walking away?

[Tao Of The Fist]

Don't we all. Do you think it's just as simple as walking away?

Hel.l Nah! A clean split is dam.n near impossible. In reality, I think this is going to get ugly real quick.

[tattooedmonk]

You mean no one dared to until David became a convicted sex offender. Wow, what a stroke of luck for those guys!:D

In any case I think the same thing that happened in Phoenix will happen at these nine schools. It will just take a little longer and all of the schools might not reopen.

In any case if these are truly serious about wanting to be "Independent" then why do they need The"?LOL...there have been others . Mostly just individual people that the Soards and GMT just let drift away or the Soards scared off with their tactics.

Its going to be a difficult task...do you think anyone wants to go to .......lets say Idaho and challenge MJK for his territory?? That would not be very smart.:D

They just want to be seperate from the Soards , that is it . They want to be associated with GMT but dont need to be.

[tattooedmonk]

Don't we all. Do you think it's just as simple as walking away?NOPE......Not and still teach the material .:eek::p:D

[tattooedmonk]

Hel.l Nah! A clean split is dam.n near impossible. In reality, I think this is going to get ugly real quick.Dude , you have no idea how ugly this is ...and getting uglier by the minute

[BoulderDawg]

Dude , you have no idea how ugly this is ...and getting uglier by the minute

I'm beginning to get a good idea with just exactly what is going on here and I'm glad I'm not directly involved.

They're making David take a polygraph in this case as part of his plea bargain. I can think of a few other people that I would also like to see take a polygraph!:D

[brucereiter]

Because I believe they want to be part of SD without being affiliated with CSC. If Sin Th'e owns the copyright on the art, supposedly, then they can't practice his art without his consent. They don't want to get into legal trouble, although if arizona is still teaching they might. Anyways that might be the case, that might not be... we just gotta keep watching this soap opera to find out.

i posted exactly what sin the's copyright and trade mark say here several times.
it is clear that sin the can not force any person to not teach any of the material.

you may not call it shaolin do:

ok fine so what ... i could call it shaolin dude.

you may not teach the material in the same order:

i say this would be hard to enforce. much of the material is from other sources such as jrq bagua. jiang wrote his book about his bagua many years ago from what i understand his daughter made the drawings of him doing his bagua for the book.

well sin the claims he wrote "classical pakua" look at the attached picture of the notes i was given. it says "by master sin the' all rights reserved may not be reprinted with out author consent".

sin the uses the same pictures and almost the exact same text but sin the makes some translation errors such as "wild ducks came out as a herd" instead of wild ducks come out as a flock" and small errors like that but the text is largely the same and the drawings are exactly the same.

it is nice that he made a translation but the way he presents it is as if he wrote it.

how could sin the stop anyone from teaching classical pakua? even if he thinks the order of moves are what is protected since the same form is available from many sources. and there are several available translations????????

how the hell does he think he can tell people they can not teach yang tai chi? it is not "his" if in know it it is mine.

now if a person opened a school called "shaolin do" and they taught the same things in the exact same order maybe sin the could say something but beyond that in my opinion no.
:o

[Tao Of The Fist]

i posted exactly what sin the's copyright and trade mark say here several times.
it is clear that sin the can not force any person to not teach any of the material.

you may not call it shaolin do:

ok fine so what ... i could call it shaolin dude.

you may not teach the material in the same order:

i say this would be hard to enforce. much of the material is from other sources such as jrq bagua. jiang wrote his book about his bagua many years ago from what i understand his daughter made the drawings of him doing his bagua for the book.

well sin the claims he wrote "classical pakua" look at the attached picture of the notes i was given. it says "by master sin the' all rights reserved may not be reprinted with out author consent".

sin the uses the same pictures and almost the exact same text but sin the makes some translation errors such as "wild ducks came out as a herd" instead of wild ducks come out as a flock" and small errors like that but the text is largely the same and the drawings are exactly the same.

it is nice that he made a translation but the way he presents it is as if he wrote it.

how could sin the stop anyone from teaching classical pakua? even if he thinks the order of moves are what is protected since the same form is available from many sources. and there are several available translations????????

how the hell does he think he can tell people they can not teach yang tai chi? it is not "his" if in know it it is mine.

now if a person opened a school called "shaolin do" and they taught the same things in the exact same order maybe sin the could say something but beyond that in my opinion no.
:o

I actually own the book that he translated, it's called Baguazhang Lianxi Fa or "Baguazhang Practice Method". I have the translation from Joseph Crandall. I don't know if there was a copyright on the original, but if there is he and csc should be in violation of it, esp. with the csc student manual.

I apologize, which pages did you post them on? There are alot of pages and I don't know where to look...

If the xingyi, bagua, and tai chi are not exclusively his, then no he cannot forbid them from teaching it. However, with only a few exceptions (seven star mantis, idk what else...) the rest are found exclusively in his repetoire and thus fit his copyright.

[BoulderDawg]

Do any of you "lawyers" actually know what you are talking about here?:D

[Tao Of The Fist]

I'm sorry i don't don the suit and tie.. I was just expression my opinion, nothing more. btw are you??? lol :p

[Leto]

i posted exactly what sin the's copyright and trade mark say here several times.
it is clear that sin the can not force any person to not teach any of the material.

you may not call it shaolin do:

ok fine so what ... i could call it shaolin dude.

you may not teach the material in the same order:

i say this would be hard to enforce. much of the material is from other sources such as jrq bagua. jiang wrote his book about his bagua many years ago from what i understand his daughter made the drawings of him doing his bagua for the book.

well sin the claims he wrote "classical pakua" look at the attached picture of the notes i was given. it says "by master sin the' all rights reserved may not be reprinted with out author consent".

sin the uses the same pictures and almost the exact same text but sin the makes some translation errors such as "wild ducks came out as a herd" instead of wild ducks come out as a flock" and small errors like that but the text is largely the same and the drawings are exactly the same.

it is nice that he made a translation but the way he presents it is as if he wrote it.

how could sin the stop anyone from teaching classical pakua? even if he thinks the order of moves are what is protected since the same form is available from many sources. and there are several available translations????????

how the hell does he think he can tell people they can not teach yang tai chi? it is not "his" if in know it it is mine.

now if a person opened a school called "shaolin do" and they taught the same things in the exact same order maybe sin the could say something but beyond that in my opinion no.
:o

That's what I was thinking. Can't they just change the name of the school and revise the curriculum a bit, and go on? I know there are people out there teaching material they learned from SD or CSC, and without permission. Are most just too small to be of concern, but a big group like this will bite into revenue and therefore merit attention?
The way many of the forms are taught in the CSC's, they are different from how Sin The taught them originally anyway (to the dismay of our friends in the east who have pointed this out). Maybe that was the plan all along, the real reason for the changes in the forms, the occasional and apparently random changes made by the Soards during instructor retreat sessions. It's like insurance in case he ever tells them to cease and desist, they can say what they teach is their own and not what he has copyrighted.
The system could do with an overhaul anyway, some revision is definately in order. If the alliance schools are all "debarred", it might be just as well for them and their students. A good instructor could put together a respectable training program by restructuring their material and changing emphasis. If they're forced to change, it might as well be a change for the better.

[brucereiter]

I actually own the book that he translated, it's called Baguazhang Lianxi Fa or "Baguazhang Practice Method". I have the translation from Joseph Crandall. I don't know if there was a copyright on the original, but if there is he and csc should be in violation of it, esp. with the csc student manual.

I apologize, which pages did you post them on? There are alot of pages and I don't know where to look...

If the xingyi, bagua, and tai chi are not exclusively his, then no he cannot forbid them from teaching it. However, with only a few exceptions (seven star mantis, idk what else...) the rest are found exclusively in his repetoire and thus fit his copyright.

actually sin the did not use crandalls translation. as far as i understand crandall actually refereed to sin the's translation to make his own.

the chinese from my understanding do not do the copyright thing the same as we do in the usa. i think that is even more true many years ago. so i doubt jrq had a copyright.

i only have a small amount of knowledge about his external material but i am sure much more of it was "common" take the hua system as an example it is well known.

chen xin jia
all of the hsing i material
all of the bagua material
all of the yang tai chi material
the 24 combo tai chi form
5 animal frolics (5 animal dead/live training)
hou tein chi
shein tein chi
buddha family fist
i chin ching (sin the's is the only one i have found with "49" postures but most of the systems of i ching ching i have found contain similar if not identical movements/positions)
are all examples of "common" styles that sin the claims ownership of. i would not feel any guilt to teach any of these with or with out sin the's permission.

[brucereiter]

Do any of you "lawyers" actually know what you are talking about here?:D

yes, but i am not a lawyer. lol

[brucereiter]

I apologize, which pages did you post them on? There are alot of pages and I don't know where to look...



http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=77dgv9.2.1

Word Mark
GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO
Translations
SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.
Goods and Services
IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: martial arts instruction. FIRST USE: 19781015. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19850615
Mark Drawing Code
(3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code
07.01.06 - Other houses
26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded
Serial Number
78374677
Filing Date
February 26, 2004
Current Filing Basis
1A
Original Filing Basis
1A
Published for Opposition
June 28, 2005
Registration Number
2997293
Registration Date
September 20, 2005
Owner
(REGISTRANT) The, Sin Kwang INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 11542 N. Poema Pl. #103 Chatsworth CALIFORNIA 91311
Attorney of Record
Craig O. Correll
Disclaimer
NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE SHAOLIN DO APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark
SERVICE MARK
Register
PRINCIPAL
Other Data
The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.
Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE

Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results from the TARR web server.
This page was generated by the TARR system on 2006-03-10 04:49:06 ET

Serial Number: 78374677

Registration Number: 2997293

Mark


(words only): GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO

Standard Character claim: No

Current Status: Registered.

Date of Status: 2005-09-20

Filing Date: 2004-02-26

Transformed into a National Application: No

Registration Date: 2005-09-20

Register: Principal

Law Office Assigned: LAW OFFICE 113

If you are the applicant or applicant's attorney and have questions about this file, please contact the Trademark Assistance Center at TrademarkAssistanceCenter@uspto.gov__Current Location: 650 -Publication And Issue Section__Date In Location: 2005-09-20_

LAST APPLICANT(S)/OWNER(S) OF RECORD

1. The, Sin Kwang

Address:
The, Sin Kwang
11542 N. Poema Pl. #103
Chatsworth, CA 91311
United States
Legal Entity Type: Individual
Country of Citizenship: United States
Phone Number: 818 341 6171
Fax Number: 818 341 6171


GOODS AND/OR SERVICES

International Class: 041
martial arts instruction
First Use Date: 1978-10-15
First Use in Commerce Date: 1985-06-15

Basis: 1(a)


ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

Disclaimer: SHAOLIN DO

Name Portrait Consent: The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.

Translation: SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.

Design Search Code(s):
07.01.06 - Other houses
26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded


MADRID PROTOCOL INFORMATION

(NOT AVAILABLE)


PROSECUTION HISTORY

2005-09-20 - Registered - Principal Register

2005-06-28 - Published for opposition

2005-06-08 - Notice of publication

2005-03-23 - Law Office Publication Review Completed

2005-03-22 - Assigned To LIE

2005-03-17 - Approved for Pub - Principal Register (Initial exam)

2005-03-17 - Amendment From Applicant Entered

2005-03-14 - Communication received from applicant

2005-03-14 - FAX RECEIVED

2004-09-17 - Examiner's Amendment And/Or Priority Action E-Mailed

2004-09-17 - Examiners Amendment And/Or Priority Action - Completed

2004-09-15 - Case file assigned to examining attorney

2004-03-15 - New Application Entered In Tram


CORRESPONDENCE INFORMATION

Correspondent
Craig O. Correll (Attorney of record)

Craig O. Correll
CRAIG O CORRELL ATTORNEY AT LAW
4245 SUNNYHILL DR
CARLSBAD CA 92008-3647

Phone Number: 760 434 6800
Fax Number: 760 434 0808



===================================

http://www.loc.gov/cgi-bin/formprocessor/copyright/locis.pl

(Combined Search)
Search For: TITL/SHAOLIN DO
Item 1 of 1

1. Registration Number: PAu-1-493-404
Title: Shaolin do.
Description: videocassette.
Note: Cataloged from appl.
Claimant: Sin Kwang The
Created: 1980
Registered: 9Aug90
Author on © Application: Sin Kwang The.
Previous Related Version: Martial arts movements preexisting.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: selection & ordering of exercises.
Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
Special Codes: 3/D

[Tao Of The Fist]

Thank you for posting the info again. Appreciate it kindly.

[BoulderDawg]

In any case the instructors are btchin' about the business arrangement and money. In my opinion you would have to be nuts to just pick up, move to a stange city away from your family and friends for the amount of money that Soard was offering. It's my understanding that many of these instructors make far less than 20K a year.

Truth is if all these guys had just told the Soards "You must be nuts to think I'm going to do that" then we would not have a problem.

[Tao Of The Fist]

In any case the instructors are btchin' about the business arrangement and money. In my opinion you would have to be nuts to just pick up, move to a stange city away from your family and friends for the amount of money that Soard was offering. It's my understanding that many of these instructors make far less than 20K a year.

Truth is if all these guys had just told the Soards "You must be nuts to think I'm going to do that" then we would not have a problem.

Actually, alot of these instructors asked the Soards, not the other way (including most of the Nine Rebels or whatever you wanna call them). My old teacher went straight from working at a restaurant to teaching and then going back home. Although, lately it seems that the main CSC is doing just what you say... in that case, yeah it's kinda nuts.

[BoulderDawg]

I personally think that here in Boulder we should just radically change the school. To start with let's get rid of those dam gis. They are definite hottie dampers. You cannot really see a girl's butt very well with that gi top flap hanging over it.

Also we should install a bar just to make it easier to meet all the women that come in. Just to make it easier to talk about Kung Fu and other stuff. We should have ladies night with half price classes for all single girls.

I think David should change his title to the Love Master Dave and show us all how it is done!:eek:

[Tao Of The Fist]

lmao Wow... if that's the case they should add drinks into the monthy fees, have a wet sparring contest after tai chi, and redesign the female gi's to Victoria's Secret* standards.

[goju]

lmao Wow... if that's the case they should add drinks into the monthy fees, have a wet sparring contest after tai chi, and "redesign the female gi's to Victoria's Secret standards".

if that happened id rejoin in a heartbeat! LMAO!!!!:D:D:p
is suggest they add a grappling class as well

[One student]

That makes me very sad. I am not actively training with me teachers and haven't for over a year now. That was not because of any fundamental difference in philosophy but simply a function of increased work and family obligations, the distance involved in going to the closest regular class with any of my instructors, and a lack of desire to learn more forms. I have kept working on a select few forms (about 15) that I find useful on a number of different levels. I have cross-trained in a couple of other styles that are closer out of convenience, but I remained loyal to my original instruction and teachers. My teachers have always been good to me, have trained me properly and treated me with respect. Their instruction and martial ability is top notch. I have always felt free to express my own opinions on the art, its efficacy and the history of it even as it has evolved from my own study, research and questioning. But if Sin The' is kicking people out because they object to David Soard's morals in pleading guilty to harassment charges, then I can no longer support Shaolin-Do officially.

I have never made a dime from SD and I've never intended to. I will teach anything that I have learned to my family as I see fit because I know the material is effective. I have learned as much as I can over the past 20 years and I know how to train it, the underlying chigung, and training methodology. It is mine and I'll share it as I see fit. I will not undermine or belittle any of my instruction from my teachers, but I will not support an organization that has lost its direction so plainly.

I do this with a heavy heart, but with no reservations that I am making the right decision. It's not like I was anyone of any substance in SD. I doubt anyone outside of my own teachers will even care. It's a shame that things have gotten to the point where a misplaced sense of loyalty and monetary interest outweigh basic morals and common-sense.

JP: I would encourage you to keep an open mind about some of that. It may be simply, you didn't support "us," so I'm not supporting you -- nor allowing you to profit from me. It could be something more nefarious as to pressure, if that is possible, from Soards (which I've seen but never understood, regarding their "revolt" they got away with). There could have been a meeting and they couldn't come to terms and so his lawyer stepped in and told him he had to sent the letter immediately to prevent dilution of his intellectual property rights. Or it could just be he's taking up first for DS and SS because that's where the money is -- I hope not but I don't know. I would have thought would have been better to keep these other schools and dumping Denver and Boulder (I suspect that would have made more people happy). But there we go speculating about things we don't know. Until I do, I'm not going to guess.

And I've been this close to saying similar things over the years, but haven't yet pulled the trigger. With my distance from major schools, hasn't been a need to be "official."

BQ seems to know everything at the heart of GMT. Comments?

[One student]

this is second hand information so you know how that can go but i was told that the soards were the first to say those tai chi forms were from the shaolin temple.

i could be wrong and if i am i retract that statement.

EML was on two local (Lexington) TV stations a few months ago, regarding World Tai Chi Day activities, and stated that tai chi was invented by a monk who left the temple over Buddhist vs Taoist differences. I could be wrong, but I got the impression he was stating that it was after leaving the temple. Not that the comment is authoritative, just thought it was relevant and interesting. The video is posted on the SinThe school site.

[kwaichang]

There exists a very ancient history in China of movement systems that are associated with health and philosophy. In some sense one can see all of these as contributing to the climate in which Tai Chi was born.

From the very origins of Taoism in the sixth century BC, sages like Lao Tsu wrote in the Tao Te Ching:


Yield and Overcome;
Bend and be straight.
And
He who stands of tiptoe is not steady.
He who strides cannot maintain the pace.
In this and in the entire tenor of his writings Lao Tsu reflects the central philosophical underpinnings of Tai Chi Chuan.
Later, in the period of the Three Kingdoms (220 to 265 AD) there was a physician Hua-tu'o who relied not only on medicine but also taught the 'movements of the five creatures' -- tiger, deer, bear, ape and birds -- a system he called Wu-chi chih hsi. He believed that the body needed to be regularly exercised to help with digestion and circulation and only by doing so could a long and healthy live be achieved. He advocated a system of imitating the movements of these animals to help exercise every joint in the body. His teaching, and its connection with the movements of animals, is probably the earliest pre-cursor of Tai Chi.


Painting of Bodihdharma by Feng Tien: Ch'ing Dynasty.

In the sixth century A.D. Bodihdharma (called Ta Mo in China) came to the Shao-Lin Monastery and seeing that the monks there were in poor physical condition from too much meditation and not enough movement, his Eighteen Form Lohan Exercise. Over time these grew to be the precursors of the Wei Chia (outer-extrinsic) school of exercise, by which is meant all the schools of kung-fu and other martial art forms which take an 'external' approach. This is in contrast to the Nei Chia (internal-intrinsic) school of which Tai Chi is a member, that take a fundamentally 'internal' approach. In the eighth century AD (the Tang dynasty) philosophers like Hsu Hsuan- p'ing developed a 'Long Kung-fu' of 37 forms. Of these certain ones such as:


Play the Pi'pa
Single Whip
Step up to Seven Stars
Jade Lady Works the Shuttles,
High Pat on Horse; and
White Crane (originally Phoenix) Cools Wing
Still survive in the contemporary Tai Chi form. There were several other such forms being practiced in the eighth century (Heavenly-Inborn Style, Nine Small Heavens Style and Acquired Kung-fu) from which grew the origins of Tai Chi.

Chang San-feng.

The apocryphal founder of Tai Chi was a monk of the Wu Tang Monastery, Chang San-feng to whom have been ascribed various dates and longevity's. Some scholars doubt his historical existance, viewing him as a literary construct on the lines of Lao Tzu. Other research and records from the Ming-shih (the official chronicles of the Ming dynasty) seem to indicate that he lived in the period from 1391 to 1459 (he may have been born earlier and lived later: these are simply some dates associated with him).

Linking some of the older forms with the notion of yin-yang from Taoism and stressing the 'internal' aspects of his exercises, he is credited with creating the fundamental 'Thirteen Postures' of Tai Chi corresponding to the eight basic trigrams of the I Ching and the five elements. The eight 'postures' are:


ward-off
rollback
press
push
pull
split
elbow strike; and
shoulder strike
The five 'attitudes' are:

advance
retreat
look left
gaze right; and
central equilibrium.
His exercises stressed suppleness and elasticity and were opposed to hardness and force. They incorporated philosophy, physiology, psychology, geometry and the laws of dynamics.
His theories, writings and practices were elaborated sometime later by Wang Chung-yueh and his student Chiang Fa. Wang apparently took the thirteen postures of Chang San-feng and linked them together into continuous sequences, thus creating something which resembles the contemporary Tai Chi Chuan form. His student Chiang Fa taught Tai Chi to the villagers of a town on Honan (almost all of whom were called Chen) and thus began the first family school of Tai Chi Chuan.

Herein lies one of the most contentious and perplexing areas of Tai Chi history and scholarship. Some scholars feel that rather than bringing Tai Chi to the Chen village Chiang Fa simply discovered the Chen villagers practiciing this art. Others maintain that the Chen family's so-called 'Cannon Pounding' (Pao Chui) was a distinct martial art that undoubtedly influenced Chiang Fa's teaching but that it was not the same as Tai Chi.

Another of Wang's students was Chen Chou-t'ung who quarreled with Chiang Fa. The former then established the so-called Southern School of Tai Chi, an interesting an colourful branch of Tai Chi which subsequently disappeared. Chiang Fa continued with the mainstream 'Northern' school of Tai Chi which survives today.

Whatever their respective contributions, from Chiang-Fa and the Chen villagers in Honan emerge all of the surviving branches of Tai Chi Chuan:


One of his students, Chen You-heng, continued what is called the New Frame Style of Chen Tai Chi.

Chen Chang-hsing (1771-1853) studied under Chiang-Fa and combined the Cannon Pounding (Pao Chui) form of the Chen Family with the Tai Chi taught by Chiang-Fa. Chen Chang-hsing, in turn, was the teacher of Yang Lu-chan, the originator of the Yang Style of Tai Chi.

Another Chen family member and student of Chen Chang-hsing was Chen Gen-yun whose descendants continued the Old Frame Style of Chen Tai Chi.

Wu Quan-yu, a Manchu guard in the Imperial Palace at Beijing, was a student of both Yang Lu-chan and his son Yang Pan-hou. Wu taught it to (amongst others) his son Wu Chien-chuan (Also written as Wu Jian-quan). From this stream emerged the Wu Style of Tai Chi.

Another Chen family member was Chen Yau-pun who veered away from Chiang Fa's tradition to create the 'new' school of Tai Chi. Apparently his student Chen Quin-ping was an originator of the Zhao Bao Style of Tai Chi.

One of Chen Quin-ping's students was Li Jing-Ting who, in turn was the founder of the Hu Lei Style of Tai Chi.

A student of both Yang Lu-chan and Chen Qing-ping was Wu Yu- xiang. He taught his nephew Lee I-yu who in turn taught Hao Wei-chen. This gave rise to the Wu Shi Style (or Hao Style) of Tai Chi Chuan.

One of Hao Wei-chen's students was Sun Lu-tang who also studied Hsing-I Quan under Kuo Yun-shen and Pa Kua Chang under Cheng T'ing-hua (himself a student of Dong Hai-chuan, the founder of Pa Kua Chang). He combined these forms in the new Sun Style of Tai Chi Chuan.

These are the principal styles of Tai Chi that are in existence in the present day.
KC

[kwaichang]

I have spoken with GMT privately regarding the history of Tai Chi and the Shaolin Temple and the post earlier coincides with what he told me KC

[tattooedmonk]

You can not copyright other peoples creations.

How can you copyright all the internal material when everyone and their mother practices these forms, that were created before the time you were born?

What about the Hua??

Or Shaolin Five Animal??

You cant.

Like it says, only the order in which it is taught and obviously his image and such,

He can't copyright Shaolin, You cant copyright a kick or a punch , can you ?? NO!!

Only that which he created can he copyright ....

[kwaichang]

I agree it is like copywriting a basket ball move, remember that. There is no continuity as no 2 people will perform the technique the same way or teach it as such. KC

[bodhi warrior]

As far as copywriting some of the material. If sin the' does in fact have a copywrite of some of the forms, then he is admitting he made them up. He cannot copywrite the major forms that are taught by numerous kung fu styles, but maybe some of the material that is exclusive to SD. But even then he would have a hard time because some of that was originally taught by Hiang. The birds, cranes, mad drunk, the 4 mantis sets, some weapons, etc.

[BoulderDawg]

I would suggest all of the attorneys here brush up on their case law.

I would start by looking at cases between various dance schools concerning the use of unique moves and steps.

Personally, I have not a clue as to what can be taught and what can't. I do know there is something called public domain. In the music business once you release a song it's in the public domain. Anyone that wants to can cover that song. However when you do this you have to give the original artist credit and pay royalties.

[tattooedmonk]

I would suggest all of the attorneys here brush up on their case law.

I would start by looking at cases between various dance schools concerning the use of unique moves and steps.

Personally, I have not a clue as to what can be taught and what can't. I do know there is something called public domain. In the music business once you release a song it's in the public domain. Anyone that wants to can cover that song. However when you do this you have to give the original artist credit and pay royalties.You dont have to be a lawyer just need todo a little research.:eek::D
All the creators of many of the forms we practice are long dead , who do we pay royalties to? :eek::p:D:cool:

We dont really learn anything that hasnt or isnt done in every other CMA/ MA school.

[Tao Of The Fist]

I have spoken with GMT privately regarding the history of Tai Chi and the Shaolin Temple and the post earlier coincides with what he told me KC

That's all fine and dandy, but that doesn't explain the misnomer of calling the CMC 37 or the 24 'combined' (which is actually the beijing 24 yang set) 'temple forms'. Like I've said in a previous post, their not the only group to do so, but I'm just curious how that came about...

Correction: the other groups only call the CMC 37 a 'temple form'.

[kwaichang]

It is my understanding that the Yang Tai Chi was included in the Shaolin Monastery and its curriculum at some point. This then makes it Shaolin. Maybe not derived there but worked on there. As stated there is a connection and that is all that was claimed as I understood it and heard. KC

[tattooedmonk]

It is my understanding that the Yang Tai Chi was included in the Shaolin Monastery and its curriculum at some point. This then makes it Shaolin. Maybe not derived there but worked on there. As stated there is a connection and that is all that was claimed as I understood it and heard. KCThats how I understood it too.....

[ShaolinGirl]

I do know there is something called public domain. In the music business once you release a song it's in the public domain. Anyone that wants to can cover that song. However when you do this you have to give the original artist credit and pay royalties.

A couple of minor corrections: Public domain covers material that nobody can lay claim to, usually because it's so old. Like the nursery rhyme "A tisket, a tasket, a red and yellow basket...." I could use that as the theme song to a TV show without having to pay royalties to anyone. But then that particular recording/version/arrangement of the song is copyrighted. Which means that particular recording cannot be played in a commercial setting, like a club, for example, for free; the club has to pay royalties (usually with a blanket license). But anyone else can still cover the original Tisket Tasket song with their own instruments, arrangements, etc., and record their own version.

If an artists cuts a song, it does not enter into the public domain (Yoko would have a friggin' heart attack). When Aerosmith covered the Beatles song Come Together, Aerosmith paid royalties to the owner(s) of the song AND had to get permission to release it as a cover. When the Republican party tried to use John Mellencamp's Pink Houses, he successfully told them to cease and desist.

[tattooedmonk]

A couple of minor corrections: Public domain covers material that nobody can lay claim to, usually because it's so old. Like the nursery rhyme "A tisket, a tasket, a red and yellow basket...." I could use that as the theme song to a TV show without having to pay royalties to anyone. But then that particular recording/version/arrangement of the song is copyrighted. Which means that particular recording cannot be played in a commercial setting, like a club, for example, for free; the club has to pay royalties (usually with a blanket license). But anyone else can still cover the original Tisket Tasket song with their own instruments, arrangements, etc., and record their own version.

If an artists cuts a song, it does not enter into the public domain (Yoko would have a friggin' heart attack). When Aerosmith covered the Beatles song Come Together, Aerosmith paid royalties to the owner(s) of the song AND had to get permission to release it as a cover. When the Republican party tried to use John Mellencamp's Pink Houses, he successfully told them to cease and desist.As I understand it, most of what is taught in SD falls into the first category , correct??

Songs , as I understand it , become public domain some 70 years after the artists death......is this correct??

[brucereiter]

EML was on two local (Lexington) TV stations a few months ago, regarding World Tai Chi Day activities, and stated that tai chi was invented by a monk who left the temple over Buddhist vs Taoist differences. I could be wrong, but I got the impression he was stating that it was after leaving the temple. Not that the comment is authoritative, just thought it was relevant and interesting. The video is posted on the SinThe school site.

i saw those videos.

http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolinlex#play/all
this is some of the worst chen tai chi chuan i have ever seen. sorry if i offend but that is my honest opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolinlex#play/all/uploads-all/1/GMWsOaCfRUo
here he shows some yang 64 and tells legends about its history as fact totally leaving out that cheng man ching developed the variation of tai chi chuan he is attempting to do and that this all happened in the early 1900's.

to the shaolin do students what is your opinion of the tai chi chuan he shows?

[brucereiter]

I have spoken with GMT privately regarding the history of Tai Chi and the Shaolin Temple and the post earlier coincides with what he told me KC

that history/legend is fine and dandy but it does not address where sin the's tai chi chuan came from in any way. there is enough evidence available to point to the actual origins of the tai chi chuan hat is practiced in shaolin do.

[BoulderDawg]

If an artists cuts a song, it does not enter into the public domain (Yoko would have a friggin' heart attack). When Aerosmith covered the Beatles song Come Together, Aerosmith paid royalties to the owner(s) of the song AND had to get permission to release it as a cover. When the Republican party tried to use John Mellencamp's Pink Houses, he successfully told them to cease and desist.

Incorrect. If you release a song anyone can record it whether you, as the artist, like it or not.

Talk to Weird Al about that one.

Of course, the GOP could not use Mellencamp's version of "Pink Houses". That's not what we're talking about here. However if they got Joe Smoe to record it Mellencamp could disapprove but he couldn't stop it.

[brucereiter]

That's all fine and dandy, but that doesn't explain the misnomer of calling the CMC 37 or the 24 'combined' (which is actually the beijing 24 yang set) 'temple forms'. Like I've said in a previous post, their not the only group to do so, but I'm just curious how that came about...

Correction: the other groups only call the CMC 37 a 'temple form'.

the explanation of the 24 form is that sin the learned it from a friend i think in the early 90's and since it is a popular form he thought it would be of value to teach to his students.

"temple form" is bs in my opinion

[Judge Pen]

the explanation of the 24 form is that sin the learned it from a friend i think in the early 90's and since it is a popular form he thought it would be of value to teach to his students.

"temple form" is bs in my opinion

This is my understanding as well. I think the first time it was referenced as "temple form" was throught the CSC, but my teacher always acknowledged that GM The' learned this in the 90s becuase if was the most popular form of Tai Chi and then taught it to his students.

[brucereiter]

It is my understanding that the Yang Tai Chi was included in the Shaolin Monastery and its curriculum at some point. This then makes it Shaolin. Maybe not derived there but worked on there. As stated there is a connection and that is all that was claimed as I understood it and heard. KC

which yang tai chi? there are many "legit" lines of yang tai chi out there with very different forms and training methods. one of them is the cmc method. it did not exist when the fukien shaolin temple was said to have existed and i am convinced by all available evidence that the "yang 64" form is a variation of the cmc style of yang tai chi chuan.

the way sin the' et all present the yang tai chi that they teach is that it was yang luchans exact form. this is highly unlikely. evidence just does not point in that direction.
you were lied to if that is what you were told.

[tattooedmonk]

helped with the misinformation and the fabrication of stories about all sorts of things pertaining to the art. It is all about the marketing :eek:

[tattooedmonk]

that history/legend is fine and dandy but it does not address where sin the's tai chi chuan came from in any way. there is enough evidence available to point to the actual origins of the tai chi chuan hat is practiced in shaolin do.Yes there is....as with all the Internal stuff...minus the Metero Fist

[brucereiter]

Talk to Weird Al about that one.

Of course, the GOP could not use Mellencamp's version of "Pink Houses". That's not what we're talking about here. However if they got Joe Smoe to record it Mellencamp could disapprove but he couldn't stop it.

you are mistaken. i am in the music biz ... the above is not the case. using pink house as the example. if you play there notes and use there lyrics and arrangements it would be against the law.

[tattooedmonk]

which yang tai chi? there are many "legit" lines of yang tai chi out there with very different forms and training methods. one of them is the cmc method. it did not exist when the fukien shaolin temple was said to have existed and i am convinced by all available evidence that the "yang 64" form is a variation of the cmc style of yang tai chi chuan.

the way sin the' et all present the yang tai chi that they teach is that it was yang luchans exact form. this is highly unlikely. evidence just does not point in that direction.
you were lied to if that is what you were told.Does passing on a lie ,that you were not aware of was a lie, make you a liar??:confused::eek::D

[brucereiter]

Yes there is....as with all the Internal stuff...minus the Metero Fist

what is the evidence you speak of?
i may not understand your relpy/comment to my comments. please clarify?

[brucereiter]

Does passing on a lie ,that you were not aware of was a lie, make you a liar??:confused::eek::D

if it has been brought to your attention or is very openly common public knowledge and the truth is readily available to you yet you still stick to the lie. yes i think it does make "you" a liar.

if you are talking about sin the he has the means and ability to know at least some of what he says is not true. he is a very smart man ... give him some credit.

[brucereiter]

helped with the misinformation and the fabrication of stories about all sorts of things pertaining to the art. It is all about the marketing :eek:

yes this is true. when i first started with grooms he was maybe 10 years into teaching in atlanta. at that time there was still info/history from the soards being told in his school, most of the students at that time who had been around for 5-9 years had been told many of the bs legends. i noticed over the years the grooms stripped away as many of the legends as he could and mostly said "i dont know" when it came to history questions.

[tattooedmonk]

what is the evidence you speak of?
i may not understand your relpy/comment to my comments. please clarify?I was agreeing with you:eek::D

[ShaolinGirl]

Incorrect. If you release a song anyone can record it whether you, as the artist, like it or not.

Talk to Weird Al about that one.

Of course, the GOP could not use Mellencamp's version of "Pink Houses". That's not what we're talking about here. However if they got Joe Smoe to record it Mellencamp could disapprove but he couldn't stop it.

I stand corrected.

[BoulderDawg]

you are mistaken. i am in the music biz ... the above is not the case. using pink house as the example. if you play there notes and use there lyrics and arrangements it would be against the law.


Prove it.

The Beatles are a classic example. If they had their own way no one would be allowed to record their music. Thousands of artists have covered the Beatles.

[bodhi warrior]

i saw those videos.

http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolinlex#play/all
this is some of the worst chen tai chi chuan i have ever seen. sorry if i offend but that is my honest opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolinlex#play/all/uploads-all/1/GMWsOaCfRUo
here he shows some yang 64 and tells legends about its history as fact totally leaving out that cheng man ching developed the variation of tai chi chuan he is attempting to do and that this all happened in the early 1900's.

to the shaolin do students what is your opinion of the tai chi chuan he shows?

The first one is their version of chen taiji. I didn't particularly care for it. Alot of repititious hand waving.
The second was the yang form that they teach. I thought it looked ok. The stances were short but that could be because of being on a small news set.

[tattooedmonk]

if it has been brought to your attention or is very openly common public knowledge and the truth is readily available to you yet you still stick to the lie. yes i think it does make "you" a liar.

if you are talking about sin the he has the means and ability to know at least some of what he says is not true. he is a very smart man ... give him some credit.I was just joking around . You are right

A lot of it is pointless to try and correct though. I think it would be easier to do like you said Master Grooms did and stop telling people all the non-sense than trying to correct it.

I give GMT more than enough credit

I think Master Sin is a victim of his own marketing...IMHO

[tattooedmonk]

The first one is their version of chen taiji. I didn't particularly care for it. Alot of repititious hand waving.
The second was the yang form that they teach. I thought it looked ok. The stances were short but that could be because of being on a small news set. yeah , I dont know if I want to touch this one....

It looked like it was early in the morning and it was not too long after his surgery ...

I am not making excuses just putting things in perspective....

He has always been known as more of a external stylist than and internal stylist.

[brucereiter]

I was agreeing with you:eek::D

lol ... cool i am glad someone does ...:o

[brucereiter]

The first one is their version of chen taiji. I didn't particularly care for it. Alot of repititious hand waving.


see the clip of me doing the same form below. bill is the sr student in the system. should he just be "waiving his arms" the repetition was not the problem as that is the basic set. but his performance demonstrated zero understanding of the methods of chen tai chi chuan. please noone give me the old crap about it being "old" and everyone else doing "sport wushu"



The second was the yang form that they teach. I thought it looked ok. The stances were short but that could be because of being on a small news set.
i thought it was a poor representation of yang tai chi chuan, even more so since this the the sr student in the art and he is a "8th" degree "elder master".
i would expect more.

here is a example of me doing the first part of the same to forms bill leonard is showing.
the first 45 or so seconds is chen xinjia and the last bit is yang 64
http://www.youtube.com/user/brucereiter#play/uploads/13/bvaC2h1X5qw

for further reference here is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3A_0zCbYNM Feng Zhijiang Chen Taiji


and here is cmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USJPmCZ6Efc

[brucereiter]

yeah , I dont know if I want to touch this one.... come on lol



It looked like it was early in the morning and it was not too long after his surgery ...
i think even with his medical condition what he showed demonstrated very low understanding of tai chi chuan.



I am not making excuses just putting things in perspective....

He has always been known as more of a external stylist than and internal stylist.
ehhh i do not think that matters. he claims to practice and teach tai chi chuan and has been doing it for many years. i just think he does not know much about tai chi chuan. it shows clearly from everything i have seen from him.

[shen ku]

any ideas on the back ground of SDs tai chi sword form?

[bodhi warrior]

see the clip of me doing the same form below. bill is the sr student in the system. should he just be "waiving his arms" the repetition was not the problem as that is the basic set. but his performance demonstrated zero understanding of the methods of chen tai chi chuan. please noone give me the old crap about it being "old" and everyone else doing "sport wushu"


i thought it was a poor representation of yang tai chi chuan, even more so since this the the sr student in the art and he is a "8th" degree "elder master".
i would expect more.

here is a example of me doing the first part of the same to forms bill leonard is showing.
the first 45 or so seconds is chen xinjia and the last bit is yang 64
http://www.youtube.com/user/brucereiter#play/uploads/13/bvaC2h1X5qw

for further reference here is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3A_0zCbYNM Feng Zhijiang Chen Taiji


and here is cmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USJPmCZ6Efc


I'd say the biggest difference in Leonard's chen taichi and what is considered good is he wasn't demonstrating the spiraling energy that you would see in someone who understands the principles of chen style.

The one thing I noticed missing in his yang performance was something that many yang stylist consider very important, and that is differentiating which foot was full and which was empty.

[tattooedmonk]

come on lol

i think even with his medical condition what he showed demonstrated very low understanding of tai chi chuan.


ehhh i do not think that matters. he claims to practice and teach tai chi chuan and has been doing it for many years. i just think he does not know much about tai chi chuan. it shows clearly from everything i have seen from him.You know I was joking again...:eek::D

[tattooedmonk]

I'd say the biggest difference in Leonard's chen taichi and what is considered good is he wasn't demonstrating the spiraling energy that you would see in someone who understands the principles of chen style.

The one thing I noticed missing in his yang performance was something that many yang stylist consider very important, and that is differentiating which foot was full and which was empty. Spiraling not circular....big difference....

[Tao Of The Fist]

any ideas on the back ground of SDs tai chi sword form?

Actually, that's a good question. Also, what's the SD background on these forms?

*Yang Tai Chi sword
*Yang Broadsword
*Dragon Bagua
*Chen Tai Chi Fan
*Bagua 2 person set
*8 Animal Bagua

None of the Bagua forms seem to be from the same family. Also, there is a two person tai chi broadsword set. is there any other system that has one?

[bodhi warrior]

Spiraling not circular....big difference....

could you elaborate on what your getting at?

[brucereiter]

Actually, that's a good question. Also, what's the SD background on these forms?

*Yang Tai Chi sword
*Yang Broadsword
*Dragon Bagua
*Chen Tai Chi Fan
*Bagua 2 person set
*8 Animal Bagua

None of the Bagua forms seem to be from the same family. Also, there is a two person tai chi broadsword set. is there any other system that has one?

i presume they came to shaolin do from the notes of ie chang ming that were given to sin the in the early 90's. this seems to be the time when the whole 900 forms thing came into play.

[BoulderDawg]

Just a general question on the teachings of Ie:

Were the The' brothers his only students?

From what I've heard there should be dozens of masters/teachers who learned from Ie. Yet I've never heard of anyone else.

[kwaichang]

Having done push hands with EML I can assure you he understands very well the principles of Tai Chi . Bruce I am sorry but I have seen EML and others perform their Tai Chi but yours seem to be lacking somewhat, sorry if I offend you. To judge someone on a news show is fool hardy KC

[ShaolinGirl]

Prove it.

The Beatles are a classic example. If they had their own way no one would be allowed to record their music. Thousands of artists have covered the Beatles.

It's true. No permission required. Just go to the Harry Fox Agency and pay the fee.

[brucereiter]

Having done push hands with EML I can assure you he understands very well the principles of Tai Chi .
what type assurance can you give me? you just offered me some so please provide evidence of the claim you made that "he understands very well the principals of tai chi". i have seen zero evidence of this.



Bruce I am sorry but I have seen EML and others perform their Tai Chi but yours seem to be lacking somewhat,

please provide a few specific ways my tai chi chuan is lacking. i do have much to learn.



sorry if I offend you.
i will only be offended if you do not give specific examples of what is lacking in my tai chi chuan as seen on the video in question and if you do not give specific details of what is good about bills tai chi chuan.



To judge someone on a news show is fool hardy KC

in what way is that fool hardy? he is just some guy who makes extreme claims time after time in public.

i guess i would also ask is it fool hardy of you to make claims about my tai chi chuan?

bill leonard showed what he called tai chi and showed a bit of yang and a bit of chen.
i think what bill showed is a very weak representation of tai chi chuan i will give a few example below.

http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolinlex#play/all
1.08 his head is leaning forward causing his spine to be out of crooked

1.25 look at the way he steps. he clunks ...

1.30 look at the angle of his knees. and how closed his inguinal fold is. with chen tai chi chuan an important attribute is the "open the kua" that means relax and open your inguinal fold.

and look his yang tai chi here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMWsOaCfRUo
1.15 look at the angle of his elbows they point out when they should point down

1.22 when he does the turn to holding ball his left foot is placed in a way the breaks his structure since his knee and toes are not facing the same direction

1.28 his holding ball posture is too close to his body again breaking his structure.

1.36 stepping into ward off he pushes out his left heel causing a break in his structure and again for rool back his knees are not aligned with the direction of his toes

1.46 for push he shifts back and forth but does not use his waist.

2.05 single whip?????? i just do not like it. it seems his hands are too close to his face.

in general bill displays zero tai chi chuan "shen fa" or in english body method in my opinion.

please note i am no master of tai chi chuan. i am just a person who practice and studies who is sharing his opinions about a person who makes some great claims.

also note that i have seem bill do tai chi chuan in many context.

i have seen him learning, i have seen him teaching, i have seen him demoing each time he shows similar attributes which he also shows in the world tai chi day news clips.

[brucereiter]

Having done push hands with EML I can assure you he understands very well the principles of Tai Chi .

please tell me about your push hand experience?

if i may ask where do you live?
why do you post with a fake name?
will you post soem video of your tai chi chuan practice for reference so i can see where you are coming from when you speak about your push hands practice with bill.

[brucereiter]

the word of the day is ad hominem.
please avoid ad hominem attacks.

ad ho·mi·nem
Pronunciation: \(ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-ˌnem, -nəm\
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
Date: 1598
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

[brucereiter]

Bruce
Check your PM
OTD

thanks ...

[kwaichang]

Wow I must have hit a nerve, Sorry Bruce.
I started Taichi in 1980 under a different teacher. All the things you say are true ,regarding tai chi rules etc. I have push hand quite a bit how much/ alot. I am by far not the best. I have pushed with Chen stylists Yang and Taoist Tai chi people. 3 different perspectives. While there is a certain physical technique to attain , the circulation of Chi is by far the most difficult and it cant be seen at times,so once the technique has been learned the focus on the circulation of Chi is the next thing , minus breathing etc. As far as your technique well I felt when opening, the body didnt sink enough the body and movements werent corordinated fully. . Your hand movements were fine and looked good but your body was not in harmony with your hand movement. The summation of your technique did not coincide with your step at times. This is all I can remember this AM. I make my statements from my total experience with tai chi not just from SD experience. Again I apologize for being critical. KC BTW I am not the only one who doesnt use their real name and considering the current topics I am glad I am not.

[sha0lin1]

This is my understanding as well. I think the first time it was referenced as "temple form" was throught the CSC, but my teacher always acknowledged that GM The' learned this in the 90s becuase if was the most popular form of Tai Chi and then taught it to his students.

In Texas, when I learned the 24 posture form, it was claimed that this form was developed at Shaolin Temple and taught there as part of the curriculum and was a mixture of Yang and Chen. Although there was no Chen as far as I can tell.

As far as the history of Tai Chi, Leonard is spot on. This is what I was taught by my Master as well. However, the Shaolin Tai Chi is not very similar to Yang Tai Chi at all. It is more similar to Chen. None of the Tai Chi forms that SD have are taught by the Temple.

Bruce, I thought your Chen was way better:)

[tattooedmonk]

your tai chi and internal material is getting a lot better. I am impressed ...

*** sidenote*** I am not easy to impress***:eek::p:D

Your Chen was very good

[brucereiter]

Wow I must have hit a nerve, Sorry Bruce.
I started Taichi in 1980 under a different teacher. All the things you say are true ,regarding tai chi rules etc. I have push hand quite a bit how much/ alot. I am by far not the best. I have pushed with Chen stylists Yang and Taoist Tai chi people. 3 different perspectives. While there is a certain physical technique to attain , the circulation of Chi is by far the most difficult and it cant be seen at times,so once the technique has been learned the focus on the circulation of Chi is the next thing , minus breathing etc. As far as your technique well I felt when opening, the body didnt sink enough the body and movements werent corordinated fully. . Your hand movements were fine and looked good but your body was not in harmony with your hand movement. The summation of your technique did not coincide with your step at times. This is all I can remember this AM. I make my statements from my total experience with tai chi not just from SD experience. Again I apologize for being critical. KC BTW I am not the only one who doesnt use their real name and considering the current topics I am glad I am not.
the only nerve that was hit is i do not think bill displays good tai chi chuan skill asper previous posts.

thanks for your observations about the form i showed. i am not sure about the sinking comment but i would agree that at times my hands were not moving with my center.
always things to improve on...

regarding push hands i am lucky to travel all over the world. (just this year i was on every continent except africa and south america). martial arts are my favorite "hobby" and i use my travels for work as a way to meet martial artist. i have met and pushed with literally 100's of people all over the world. some very famous, some unknown, some very skilled and some that are clueless. from this exposure is where i base many of my opinions of what is "good" and what is not. please do not assume my experience comes from a narrow view point. it does not.

regarding the fake names. i know a lot of people do it. i personally think people should use their real names. i know that it is not required on this forum but if a man or women makes comments about another man they person being spoken about should at least have the knowledge of who is talking to them. i just think it is harder to "talk ****" if everyone knows who you are then you can be held accountable for your words and actions. that is a whole other subject though.

what do you think about my observations of bills tai chi?

[brucereiter]

your tai chi and internal material is getting a lot better. I am impressed ...

*** sidenote*** I am not easy to impress***:eek::p:D

Your Chen was very good

thanks man. i am just having fun with it. as a matter of fact i should get off this computer and go outside and practice ... it is already noon lol.

[kwaichang]

I am not going to critique EML performance as that would not be respectful. I have experienced his "power" though and have had years of experience with fighters and Tai Chi people and know when I have met a man who can handle themselves, in either arena. Ie : external or internal. No one has perfect technique though and I feel alot is lost on any given day as to a persons performance. His was not the best that I have seen him do in the past , but perhaps he didnt know he was going to be so widely criticised. KC

[brucereiter]

I am not going to critique EML performance as that would not be respectful.
why would you think it is respectful to critique mine but disrespectful to critique bills tai chi. both were put out for the general public to see. you are free to make respectful comments about bills performance i would think. you have my invitation to give objective critique of any video i have put online.

to flat out insult is one thing but sharing observations objectively i think is ok.



I have experienced his "power" though and have had years of experience with fighters and Tai Chi people and know when I have met a man who can handle themselves, in either arena. Ie : external or internal.


not once did i say or even imply he could not fight or did not have "power" i have heard from many that he is a excellent fighter. but that does not mean he can express the methods of tai chi chuan.



No one has perfect technique though
you are correct. but the person in question calls him self "elder master" and has been practicing at least yang tai chi for what 30+ years and is the sr student in the system of shaolin do and has a "tai chi chuan applications" video sold to the public. i would hold a person with those credentials to a higher standard than i would hold a "normal" student like myself who does not profess mastery is any martial art.



and I feel alot is lost on any given day as to a persons performance.

lol ... a lot is lost. blah. in the video i showed you of my self in sydney doing yang and chen tai chi. i had just gotten of of a 24 hour flight to australia landed. gone to a hotel for just enough time to drop off my luggage and then did a concert set up and sound check after which i walked out of the venue and had a friend hold the camera for me while i did what you saw. i might add that the flies in australia are a huge distraction i had flies going in my ears and nose and all around my head through out that whole video. i only say all of that to point out that i do not think you should make a excuse for bill. he clearly demonstrated a lack of understanding of tai chi chuan on many videos i have seen of him ranging in time from when his hair was black to the most recent "news clips" where his hair is white.



His was not the best that I have seen him do in the past ,

kc, i am going to have to call bull poop on that comment.
making a mistake or a misstep is one thing but that is not what i saw.

what about it was worse than what you saw him do in the past.
have the courage to disagree with your teacher. noting that bills tai chi is lacking should not offend him as a matter of fact if you are a loyal student i think it would honor him to help him.



but perhaps he didnt know he was going to be so widely criticised. KC
he was not widely critiqued. i think only i made any specific comments about his tai chi and a few others agreed or made a quick comment.

he should know if he is going to be on video available to the public people may comment. also i would think he knew he was going to be on the new doing tai chi so why would he not be prepared?

[tattooedmonk]

you guys are on one again today??:eek::p:D:cool: J/K

[BoulderDawg]

Maybe it's a culture thing but this entire respect idea is a bit much if you ask me.

I don't think it's disrespectful to tell a master that he is wrong or that maybe current trends in the art have past him by.

[kwaichang]

Bruce you asked what we thought , he did not, You are not my teacher he is. I am not saying his was perfect just that I have seen it better. Some elements of Tai Chi are not physical and cannot be expressed. Also, as EML said there is one way to do Tai Chi for a MA application and another for health. I feel the health aspect will be done different much like the old MA contributing to Shoto-kan are performed physically different such as the front stance etc. That is all I am saying. So no I really dont fully agree with you. But from a technical health standpoint I will say you are right about the technigue etc performed. KC

[brucereiter]

In Texas, when I learned the 24 posture form, it was claimed that this form was developed at Shaolin Temple and taught there as part of the curriculum and was a mixture of Yang and Chen. Although there was no Chen as far as I can tell.

As far as the history of Tai Chi, Leonard is spot on. This is what I was taught by my Master as well. However, the Shaolin Tai Chi is not very similar to Yang Tai Chi at all. It is more similar to Chen. None of the Tai Chi forms that SD have are taught by the Temple.

Bruce, I thought your Chen was way better:)

when i first started in atlanta the 24 form was called the "shaolin combination form"
its description from the schools poster was as follows

"shaolin combination "24" form combines essential elements from variuos shaolin tai chi long forms. it was a shorter faster moving form compared to shaolin forms.students will learn form and applicability of various postures."

that was information given to gary from his seniors so it is what he told "us". after he found more information he now calls it "Tai Ji Quan 24 Form" and does not in anyway as far as i know associate it with shaolin temple.

bill is not spot on with that history he shared. what bill said is in fact a legend.
it is a legend that has zero to do with the 3 main forms of tai chi done in shaolin do
yang 64 cheng man ching form, chen xin jia chen fake' form and the 24 tai chi form The form was the result of an effort by the Chinese Sports Committee which, in 1956, brought together four tai chi teachers - Chu Guiting, Cai Longyun, Fu Zhongwen and Zhang Yu - to create a simplified form of tai chi as exercise for the masses.

[brucereiter]

Bruce you asked what we thought , he did not, You are not my teacher he is.

I am not saying his was perfect just that I have seen it better.

Some elements of Tai Chi are not physical and cannot be expressed. Also, as EML said there is one way to do Tai Chi for a MA application and another for health.

I feel the health aspect will be done different much like the old MA contributing to Shoto-kan are performed physically different such as the front stance etc. That is all I am saying. So no I really dont fully agree with you. But from a technical health standpoint I will say you are right about the technigue etc performed. KC

how about this since i am now losing interest ... we will agree to disagree and let the evidence speak for its self.

next topic please:-)

[tattooedmonk]

in what fashion do you/ are you supposed to hold your hands when doing sparring techniques??

As most of you have seen, the Soards teach it with both hands in an uppercut position



........... I use vertical fist..........

[BoulderDawg]

in what fashion do you/ are you supposed to hold your hands when doing sparring techniques??

As most of you have seen, the Soards teach it with both hands in an uppercut position

........... I use vertical fist..........

Since it's just an exercise I guess you could do it flippin' the bird if you really wanted too!:D

[brucereiter]

i would think about the pros and cons of the i guess 3 positions in question.

is it a fist you are hitting with? what its the target and where are you in relation to the target? for example a possible advantage to the "uppercut" position is for a strike to the face your hand may be less likely to be damages (like zuan chuan from the 5 roads punch to the face vs. beng chuan punch to solar plexus)

[kwaichang]

In the 5 Roads of Hsing Ie I am certain it is tied to the 5 elements and their corresponding Meridians such as Heart Fire etc. I do upper cut for the 1st ST but feel it is more like a western fencing thrust tech.
BTW i went to a Chen , and PaKua school school this evening and met the teacher. He was pretty Da// good . Will let you know more later. Bruce if you will read my last sentence of my last post I am agreeing with you. FYI. KC

[tattooedmonk]

in what fashion do you/ are you supposed to hold your hands when doing sparring techniques??

As most of you have seen, the Soards teach it with both hands in an uppercut position



........... I use vertical fist..........The reason I chose to do vertical fist is because it is a neutral position and the most natural . If you do a quarter turn outward it becomes a uppercut, a quarter turn inward and it becomes a horizontal fist. From an uppercut positon you have to turn it a half turn inward to get to horizontal fist, this takes time . Having them already in an uppercut position has other offensive and defensive drawbacks...just food for thought.

[tattooedmonk]

i would think about the pros and cons of the i guess 3 positions in question.

is it a fist you are hitting with? what its the target and where are you in relation to the target? for example a possible advantage to the "uppercut" position is for a strike to the face your hand may be less likely to be damages (like zuan chuan from the 5 roads punch to the face vs. beng chuan punch to solar plexus) I see that as a punch to the throat and not the face... same idea though.....

[tattooedmonk]

Since it's just an exercise I guess you could do it flippin' the bird if you really wanted too!:Dthats my favorite way!!!:eek::D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

In the 5 Roads of Hsing Ie I am certain it is tied to the 5 elements and their corresponding Meridians such as Heart Fire etc. I do upper cut for the 1st ST but feel it is more like a western fencing thrust tech.
BTW i went to a Chen , and PaKua school school this evening and met the teacher. He was pretty Da// good . Will let you know more later. Bruce if you will read my last sentence of my last post I am agreeing with you. FYI. KCyou are correct, it is connected to the Heart and Sm Intestines( ZANG FU)

I use a back fist for #1....FYI:)

I am also interested in hearing about this school you went to today......

[brucereiter]

I see that as a punch to the throat and not the face... same idea though.....

yeah i think basically anywhere you can strike in a upwards manner.

for example i have 2 training partners 1 who is about 6'7" and the other who is barley 5' tall.

in usage for the 5' tall guy hitting the 6'7" guy that "throat" shot may be more valuable to the solar plexus or kidneys etc since he cant reach the tall fellows throat. and visa-versa the tall guy might have the opposite problem.

my point is the attributes of the movement may be more important that the target if that makes sense.

good reasoning on the vertical fist idea ...

[brucereiter]

In the 5 Roads of Hsing Ie I am certain it is tied to the 5 elements and their corresponding Meridians such as Heart Fire etc. I do upper cut for the 1st ST but feel it is more like a western fencing thrust tech.
BTW i went to a Chen , and PaKua school school this evening and met the teacher. He was pretty Da// good . Will let you know more later. Bruce if you will read my last sentence of my last post I am agreeing with you. FYI. KC

now this is an area of tai chi chuan etc where i am mostly ignorant. on a intellectual level i know a small bit about meridians etc but on a practical level i know very little.

was it a school in la you visited? how was it?

no worries on the previous topics ... i put you on the spot about your teacher ...

[sha0lin1]

What he said about the history of Tai Chi Quan and Chang San Feng is what he was right about. I know it is a legend, however, that is how Shaolin Temple teaches it. Interesting though as he and the news anchors said Sin The Karate school and talked about karate and he made no attempt to say it was Kung Fu.

[OldandUsed]

yeah, Sin The' Karate Club/School was the way it was always posted. The location he is in now goes by Sin's Gym, but houses the Sin The' Karate Club/School.

What surgery did EML have? I hadn't heard about that.

[tattooedmonk]

yeah, Sin The' Karate Club/School was the way it was always posted. The location he is in now goes by Sin's Gym, but houses the Sin The' Karate Club/School.

What surgery did EML have? I hadn't heard about that.he had heart surgery

[OldandUsed]

Hmmmm, I had not heard that. Bad? Extensive? Is he restricted on what he can do, now?

[tattooedmonk]

Hmmmm, I had not heard that. Bad? Extensive? Is he restricted on what he can do, now?From what I heard he is fine and back to normal ...whatever that means:D

[OldandUsed]

Thanks for the info.

[Facepalm]

Has anyone from Boulder ever heard of Trans Thai Boxing and fitness center?

ive been going around town trying to find a place to train in a striking art. I would go to one of the MMA places but they put all their focus into BJJ and im not really interested in learning that. I also hear that easton BJJ is cobra ki :D

I went to some hapkido classes but they seemed pretty lame, with noises that are enforced and stuff, the BB going over techniques with me kept trying to intimidate me, it was all laughable.

The same place (pre eminence hall) has goju ryu karate and an other okinowan weapon art but from their website it is clear that they dont do sparring ever in any capacity.

This Trans place though seems like I could really learn alot there. They have a large facility thats open 6 days a week and they teach Muay Thai and they have a fight team that you can get on. Im gonna go visit them tonight.

If anyone in Boulder knows of any secret ancient chinese men who teach any chinese style I would be interested, or just any place where I can get some fight practice and some intense strike training I would really appreciate it.

[Facepalm]

I think the moment I realized how bad the people at the CSC were was during the 3rd and 4th roads of the golden leopard festival.

At the beginning of the festival all of the highest ranked masters and a couple of the lower ranked school instructors performed the 1st and 2nd roads for GMT.

You could tell that they took this as a big deal. As they started the forms I noticed GMT in the back of the crowd talking to someone. Then he went to the porta potty, then he came back out and went back to his conversation without even glancing at the senior students performing for him.

I was just like..... OUCH ;)

[goju]

i just woke up so bare with me while i clear out the cobwebs but is this the same trans school you were talking about
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81449

[tattooedmonk]

I think the moment I realized how bad the people at the CSC were was during the 3rd and 4th roads of the golden leopard festival.

At the beginning of the festival all of the highest ranked masters and a couple of the lower ranked school instructors performed the 1st and 2nd roads for GMT.

You could tell that they took this as a big deal. As they started the forms I noticed GMT in the back of the crowd talking to someone. Then he went to the porta potty, then he came back out and went back to his conversation without even glancing at the senior students performing for him.

I was just like..... OUCH ;) If you have to go you have to go....no matter who you are..... I have seen him do it in the middle of a test before...how long should someone have to wait to go to the john??? if he did it after the performance or before there would have been some delay, right??

Better to do it when everybody is not looking and in the middle of some half @$$ed performance than when he is supposed to be teaching, right??

[tattooedmonk]

Too bad you dont live close, I would train you the way you should be trained.:)

[BoulderDawg]

I think the moment I realized how bad the people at the CSC were was during the 3rd and 4th roads of the golden leopard festival.

At the beginning of the festival all of the highest ranked masters and a couple of the lower ranked school instructors performed the 1st and 2nd roads for GMT.

You could tell that they took this as a big deal. As they started the forms I noticed GMT in the back of the crowd talking to someone. Then he went to the porta potty, then he came back out and went back to his conversation without even glancing at the senior students performing for him.

I was just like..... OUCH ;)

I've noticed things like that. One wonders how much burn out The' is suffering from. I guess you really couldn't blame the man. Hell most pro sport people live and breath their sport from about 5 years old until 40 or so then they've just had enough.

I'm not really into the politics as much as a lot of people but it seems like most of the people who would take over from The' because of retirement or death are in their 50s at least. Maybe it's time to start grooming a younger man to take over.

[shen ku]

i know when he had the masters in lexington demo a form at the spring seminar in lexington he didn't walk off at all,, and i must say i was impressed... each master showed different strengthes but master ben collins was the most well rounded.... power speed,,, all there.

[brucereiter]

What he said about the history of Tai Chi Quan and Chang San Feng is what he was right about. I know it is a legend, however, that is how Shaolin Temple teaches it. Interesting though as he and the news anchors said Sin The Karate school and talked about karate and he made no attempt to say it was Kung Fu.

the problem i have with it is it is said in a way that implies that sin the' has some direct connection to chang san fang ...

face the facts that tai chi chuan as we know it (yang 64) is not very old. surely not "thousands" of years ...

[Chris-H]

Has anyone from Boulder ever heard of Trans Thai Boxing and fitness center?

ive been going around town trying to find a place to train in a striking art. I would go to one of the MMA places but they put all their focus into BJJ and im not really interested in learning that. I also hear that easton BJJ is cobra ki :D

I went to some hapkido classes but they seemed pretty lame, with noises that are enforced and stuff, the BB going over techniques with me kept trying to intimidate me, it was all laughable.

The same place (pre eminence hall) has goju ryu karate and an other okinowan weapon art but from their website it is clear that they dont do sparring ever in any capacity.

This Trans place though seems like I could really learn alot there. They have a large facility thats open 6 days a week and they teach Muay Thai and they have a fight team that you can get on. Im gonna go visit them tonight.

If anyone in Boulder knows of any secret ancient chinese men who teach any chinese style I would be interested, or just any place where I can get some fight practice and some intense strike training I would really appreciate it.

Hi Facepalm,
We have a regular group that trains Hebei Xingyi at the Pre-Eminence Hall on Saturday mornings. Feel free to drop me a PM and I can give you the details.

Best Regards,
Chris

[sha0lin1]

the problem i have with it is it is said in a way that implies that sin the' has some direct connection to chang san fang ...

face the facts that tai chi chuan as we know it (yang 64) is not very old. surely not "thousands" of years ...

As I was taught the history. Chang San Feng's Tai Chi was developed in the 1200's whereas Yang Style was developed in the early 1800's. Since I left SD I have been exposed to many different TCMA styles and none of them look anything like what SD does in any of their systems. Yes it's true that they have a few things like Tiger Crane from Hung Gar, but that is about it. Their Yang Tai Chi is nothing like Yang Tai Chi and neither is their Chen Tai Chi.

[brucereiter]

As I was taught the history. Chang San Feng's Tai Chi was developed in the 1200's whereas Yang Style was developed in the early 1800's.

and the cmc tai chi chuan the is taught in sd was developed in the 1900's.

chang san feng is a legend. do not confuse legend for history.

Yang style (楊氏) (founded by Yang Lu-ch'an, 1799-1872) this is as far back as "yang tai chi chuan" can be traced. if you go back further to chen tai chi chuan you will find that it is unlikely that chang san feng even existed let alone developed what we call yang tai chi chuan and more specifically cheng man ching style.



[QUOTE=sha0lin1;962991]
Since I left SD I have been exposed to many different TCMA styles and none of them look anything like what SD does in any of their systems. Yes it's true that they have a few things like Tiger Crane from Hung Gar, but that is about it.
i have not compared the external stuff since i never learned it i cant really say much about it.



Their Yang Tai Chi is nothing like Yang Tai Chi and neither is their Chen Tai Chi.

does the tai chi starting at about 30 seconds into the video look like yang tai chi chuan to you?

http://www.youtube.com/user/brucereiter#play/uploads/13/bvaC2h1X5qw

[Facepalm]

So I went by Trans yesterday,

I read the bulshido thread before I went. I really didnt agree with alot of what those people on the thread said.

The place has great facilities, and what looks like good instruction.

I signed up for the month grace period and Im going in again tonight.

It will be nice to hit bags and get a great workout, I might even learn some good techniques, and maybe even get to train with their fight team.

Plus the classes were like 50% female......which is nice:D

[tattooedmonk]

As I was taught the history. Chang San Feng's Tai Chi was developed in the 1200's whereas Yang Style was developed in the early 1800's. Since I left SD I have been exposed to many different TCMA styles and none of them look anything like what SD does in any of their systems. Yes it's true that they have a few things like Tiger Crane from Hung Gar, but that is about it. Their Yang Tai Chi is nothing like Yang Tai Chi and neither is their Chen Tai Chi.The forms do not have the same movements?? They look ""NOTHING LIKE"" what SD does ?? then they must be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.......:rolleyes::p:eek::D

I always have to poke fun when people say things like this.... It doesnt make any sense........

Thats like saying fighting on the ground is" NOTHING LIKE "fighting standing up and is "COMPLETELY DIFERENT"... sure there are differences but saying NOTHING and COMPLETELY???? ....C'mon:D

[tattooedmonk]

Plus the classes were like 50% female......which is nice:DThis is a nice incentive!!!:D We do bag and shield work in every class.... F@ck kicking in the air all the time. Thats not very realistic ...plus, then when you try to kick somebody you fall on your ass!!!

[SDJerry]

Yes it's true that they have a few things like Tiger Crane from Hung Gar, but that is about it.

SD Tiger Crane greatly differs from the Tiger Crane I know. There are a lot of styles out there that have a version of Tiger Crane though so that doesn't mean their version is wrong. It's just not the hung gar version.

[sha0lin1]

[QUOTE=sha0lin1;962991]As I was taught the history. Chang San Feng's Tai Chi was developed in the 1200's whereas Yang Style was developed in the early 1800's.

and the cmc tai chi chuan the is taught in sd was developed in the 1900's.

chang san feng is a legend. do not confuse legend for history.

Yang style (楊氏) (founded by Yang Lu-ch'an, 1799-1872) this is as far back as "yang tai chi chuan" can be traced. if you go back further to chen tai chi chuan you will find that it is unlikely that chang san feng even existed let alone developed what we call yang tai chi chuan and more specifically cheng man ching styl



i have not compared the external stuff since i never learned it i cant really say much about it.



does the tai chi starting at about 30 seconds into the video look like yang tai chi chuan to you?

http://www.youtube.com/user/brucereiter#play/uploads/13/bvaC2h1X5qw

The first form looked like Chen, the second one at 1:27 looked like Yang.

[Leto]

Why don't we just say, once and for all, that SD and CSC teach a kuntao style from Indonesia, which has its roots in the styles taught by Chinese immigrants to Bandung in Western Java.
It looks different and has different methods from mainland and Taiwan Chinese styles because it was geographically seperated, and influenced by elements of the local styles and culture, as well as blending elements of several Chinese styles which were taught together instead of as seperate disciplines.
Compound this with inadequate or hasty instruction for a large number of students, some of whom go on to become instructors themselves, and you end up with something that just looks like a mess. But there are elements of the system which are worthwhile, even if it isn't a "pure" Chinese martial art.
If one were to take a step back, ensure solid training of fundamentals, and re-focus the curriculum on a core set of forms (not trying to teach over a hundred of them in the course of a few short years), that system would produce more solid martial artists who could be proud of their style and their skills.
If we tell the truth, as best we know it, about the origins of the style and the forms, it will lead to fewer questions down the road. Myths and legends are still fun stories to tell, but don't let students confuse them for factual occurrences.

I say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's a core of a good style here, if the focus could just be shifted.

[brucereiter]

[QUOTE=brucereiter;962997]

The first form looked like Chen, the second one at 1:27 looked like Yang.

interesting that you say that. as it brings up a very important point about shaolin do. there are many variations of it(even here in atlanta among people who learned side by side)... the 2 forms you commented on are what i was taught by gary grooms and are what i taught at the csc in atlanta.

[brucereiter]

Why don't we just say, once and for all, that SD and CSC teach a kuntao style from Indonesia, which has its roots in the styles taught by Chinese immigrants to Bandung in Western Java.
It looks different and has different methods from mainland and Taiwan Chinese styles because it was geographically seperated, and influenced by elements of the local styles and culture, as well as blending elements of several Chinese styles which were taught together instead of as seperate disciplines.
Compound this with inadequate or hasty instruction for a large number of students, some of whom go on to become instructors themselves, and you end up with something that just looks like a mess. But there are elements of the system which are worthwhile, even if it isn't a "pure" Chinese martial art.
If one were to take a step back, ensure solid training of fundamentals, and re-focus the curriculum on a core set of forms (not trying to teach over a hundred of them in the course of a few short years), that system would produce more solid martial artists who could be proud of their style and their skills.
If we tell the truth, as best we know it, about the origins of the style and the forms, it will lead to fewer questions down the road. Myths and legends are still fun stories to tell, but don't let students confuse them for factual occurrences.

I say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's a core of a good style here, if the focus could just be shifted.

well said.

[Judge Pen]

Why don't we just say, once and for all, that SD and CSC teach a kuntao style from Indonesia, which has its roots in the styles taught by Chinese immigrants to Bandung in Western Java.
It looks different and has different methods from mainland and Taiwan Chinese styles because it was geographically seperated, and influenced by elements of the local styles and culture, as well as blending elements of several Chinese styles which were taught together instead of as seperate disciplines.
Compound this with inadequate or hasty instruction for a large number of students, some of whom go on to become instructors themselves, and you end up with something that just looks like a mess. But there are elements of the system which are worthwhile, even if it isn't a "pure" Chinese martial art.
If one were to take a step back, ensure solid training of fundamentals, and re-focus the curriculum on a core set of forms (not trying to teach over a hundred of them in the course of a few short years), that system would produce more solid martial artists who could be proud of their style and their skills.
If we tell the truth, as best we know it, about the origins of the style and the forms, it will lead to fewer questions down the road. Myths and legends are still fun stories to tell, but don't let students confuse them for factual occurrences.

I say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's a core of a good style here, if the focus could just be shifted.

Perfect summation of this thread. If only the elders of SD would agree to see it this way.

[sha0lin1]

Why don't we just say, once and for all, that SD and CSC teach a kuntao style from Indonesia, which has its roots in the styles taught by Chinese immigrants to Bandung in Western Java.
It looks different and has different methods from mainland and Taiwan Chinese styles because it was geographically seperated, and influenced by elements of the local styles and culture, as well as blending elements of several Chinese styles which were taught together instead of as seperate disciplines.
Compound this with inadequate or hasty instruction for a large number of students, some of whom go on to become instructors themselves, and you end up with something that just looks like a mess. But there are elements of the system which are worthwhile, even if it isn't a "pure" Chinese martial art.
If one were to take a step back, ensure solid training of fundamentals, and re-focus the curriculum on a core set of forms (not trying to teach over a hundred of them in the course of a few short years), that system would produce more solid martial artists who could be proud of their style and their skills.
If we tell the truth, as best we know it, about the origins of the style and the forms, it will lead to fewer questions down the road. Myths and legends are still fun stories to tell, but don't let students confuse them for factual occurrences.

I say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's a core of a good style here, if the focus could just be shifted.

I agree as well. There are effective techniques and good fighters among the SD bunch. I think it is the claim that they are teaching Shaolin Kung Fu that is what rubs everyone the wrong way. I bought all of that crap hook, line and sinker when I was with them too. But I always thought the legends that were told sounded a little Shaw Brothers. After I left and started training with my current Master and going to CMA tournaments I got a great exposure to what CMA is out there, both southern and northern, internal and external. SD did not even slightly resemble any of it. I think they would be better off to drop the Shaolin and call themselves an Indonesian Art.

[tattooedmonk]

I agree as well. There are effective techniques and good fighters among the SD bunch. I think it is the claim that they are teaching Shaolin Kung Fu that is what rubs everyone the wrong way. I bought all of that crap hook, line and sinker when I was with them too. But I always thought the legends that were told sounded a little Shaw Brothers. After I left and started training with my current Master and going to CMA tournaments I got a great exposure to what CMA is out there, both southern and northern, internal and external. SD did not even slightly resemble any of it. I think they would be better off to drop the Shaolin and call themselves an Indonesian Art.Once again ...didnt even slightly resemble any of it....???:rolleyes:

What seems to be the problem with calling it Shaolin ??

Its just a name.

a label

BFD

You can call it "Dog $h!t on my lawn" for all I care

Its people that have this attitude, that think they know what shaolin is and what it is not that really turn me off from spending anytime with other CMA artists.

F#king elitists

...I know what the flavor of CMA is, I know what it is "supposed "to look like but I have to say that most of the CMA that I have seen is completely useless in a real fight.

It may look pretty, but F#cking useless!

SD is a branch of a large tree that because of its migration and geographical location took on a different form.

What is everyones problem with that???

I do not call it Kung Fu or Karate ... Its just Shaolin Martial Arts everyone has this big issue with it being called kung fu or Karate ....... once again another F#CKING label.

Next you will be saying that because the Vietnamese, Japanese, etc. versions of Shaolin are not done the same wayyou think they should be done that they are not shaolin either ,right??:eek::rolleyes:


Get over yourself.....Shut up and go train!!

Yeah , lets just drop a name that has been used for over how many years just to satisfy all of you!!! Oy Vey

[tattooedmonk]

Why don't we just say, once and for all, that SD and CSC teach a kuntao style from Indonesia, which has its roots in the styles taught by Chinese immigrants to Bandung in Western Java.
It looks different and has different methods from mainland and Taiwan Chinese styles because it was geographically seperated, and influenced by elements of the local styles and culture, as well as blending elements of several Chinese styles which were taught together instead of as seperate disciplines.
Compound this with inadequate or hasty instruction for a large number of students, some of whom go on to become instructors themselves, and you end up with something that just looks like a mess. But there are elements of the system which are worthwhile, even if it isn't a "pure" Chinese martial art.
If one were to take a step back, ensure solid training of fundamentals, and re-focus the curriculum on a core set of forms (not trying to teach over a hundred of them in the course of a few short years), that system would produce more solid martial artists who could be proud of their style and their skills.
If we tell the truth, as best we know it, about the origins of the style and the forms, it will lead to fewer questions down the road. Myths and legends are still fun stories to tell, but don't let students confuse them for factual occurrences.

I say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's a core of a good style here, if the focus could just be shifted.
Great post , I am right here with you , brother.:D Now do you have any problem with using the name " Shaolin"???

[tattooedmonk]

[QUOTE=sha0lin1;963133]

interesting that you say that. as it brings up a very important point about shaolin do. there are many variations of it(even here in atlanta among people who learned side by side)... the 2 forms you commented on are what i was taught by gary grooms and are what i taught at the csc in atlanta. Seeing as Yang came from Chen , to me, it stands to reason that there would be some over lap.
from what I understand MGG is an excellent Tai Chi player and knows whats what.

I do have to admit because most people do not spend the time to really study learn and practice the material it all looks the same .

Your tiger should not look like preying mantis and your Hua should not look like whatever....

Bruce , I like what you are doing . It is amazing how far you have come in a short period of time ...THats real KUNG FU!!!:D

[tattooedmonk]

I am on one today... I had this guy watch me train yesterday and he said to me, " I like your style, what martial art style is that" I told him that it was CMA . He said "it cant be because you wearing a GI , a Japanese uniform.:rolleyes::eek:......

[brucereiter]

SD did not even slightly resemble any of it. I think they would be better off to drop the Shaolin and call themselves an Indonesian Art.

but just a few posts ago you said that video looked like yang tai chi and chen tai chi. that is what i was taught in sd ... you seem to be saying 2 different things adn one of them seems to be an absolute that is simply incorrect. i think what you really mean is that among the sd group some of them really suck.

[Judge Pen]

I have no problem calling it shaolin-do because kung tao is an Indonesian blending of CMA with other arts. It's origin is Chinese but it is now something somewhat different. Shorin ryu's name is very similar but it is not shaolin anymore although it claims to once have been.

[goju]

because shaolin is alot more than a martial art its away of life and its tied in with religion which makes it wrong to claim something is shaolin when it is not!!!

how many mother ****in times do i have to repeat myself:D

[Lucas]

i dont have any personal SD physical experience.

however, to claim something is 'shaolin' is different than claiming something is 'shaolin martial art'

two different things

i cant remember what video, i think it was shi deyang that said something along the lines of: (Not direct quote, but same message)

the essence of shaolin martial art is adaption and evolution. if you take your shaolin martial art to another region and give the material to the people there, after time you will see a change take place in the material you taught. the shaolin martial art is going to resemble and blend with the local boxing methods. the shaolin methods will be an addition to what is currently being done in that region.

after all, shaolin martial arts is a massive blend of material worked and worked and worked for generations in a 'melting pot' so to speak.

this is really just a truth of martial arts and cross training. also the easy explination why karate and kungfu are similar yet distinctly different. the Japanese made the art their own.

for example, what if you teach shaolin martial art to 10 large 6ft 200lb norwegians, vs 10 smaller 150lb chinese people.

the end results will be similar, yet distinctly different.

[tattooedmonk]

i dont have any personal SD physical experience.

however, to claim something is 'shaolin' is different than claiming something is 'shaolin martial art'

two different things

i cant remember what video, i think it was shi deyang that said something along the lines of: (Not direct quote, but same message)

the essence of shaolin martial art is adaption and evolution. if you take your shaolin martial art to another region and give the material to the people there, after time you will see a change take place in the material you taught. the shaolin martial art is going to resemble and blend with the local boxing methods. the shaolin methods will be an addition to what is currently being done in that region.

after all, shaolin martial arts is a massive blend of material worked and worked and worked for generations in a 'melting pot' so to speak.

this is really just a truth of martial arts and cross training. also the easy explination why karate and kungfu are similar yet distinctly different. the Japanese made the art their own.

for example, what if you teach shaolin martial art to 10 large 6ft 200lb norwegians, vs 10 smaller 150lb chinese people.

the end results will be similar, yet distinctly different.Perfect , thanks!!!

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/stances.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/basiccomponents.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/warmups.mp4

[BoulderDawg]

Also, it's funny how people talk about there style is the "true" Kung Fu..whatever.

I believe if we were to get in a time machine and go back 300 years we would see very differents forms than what we do today no matter what style we practice.

Honest to god, so much as happened in China, I doubt we have anything other than a few notes and legends about what went on even a 100 years ago.

[brucereiter]

from what I understand MGG is an excellent Tai Chi player and knows whats what.
i really think gary grooms is a good tai chi chuan teacher. i have learned a lot from him. i have had difference of opinion about hsing i with him but he was and is open to change and other ideas as long as you are not just parroting what you read in a book or what ever. as long as you are speaking to him from personal and practical knowledge he will listen and respect what ever you have to say even if he does not agree.




Bruce , I like what you are doing . It is amazing how far you have come in a short period of time ...THats real KUNG FU!!!:D
thank you. lots of fun and hard work. and **** one of the biggest things i have learned in recent years is just when you think "i know this" you find out there is even more to learn and understand.

[Leto]

Exactly, everyone thinks their style is the one and only "true" shaolin style. No doubt Sin The's teachers beleived this, too, when they left China, and he still believes it now.
I don't have a problem using the name Shaolin, because so many different styles do already. They have shaolin style in Vietnam, they use the Vietnamese word for it, thieu lam. Shorin is the Japanese pronounciation of Shaolin used to describe an Okinawan style. We all know that many, many styles describe themselves as shaolin, and almost none of them teach or follow a strict Buddhist philosophy as temple monks do, and most don't look anything like what is taught in the temple now. What has to stop is saying "the one and only authentic shaolin martial art, taught by the one true shaolin grand master". That's ridiculous.
Of course, the internal arts aren't "shaolin" by anyone's definition, and they're a part of the system as well (though it is probable that taijiquan has its origins in shaolin longfist). To heck with it, it's just a name. Maybe the internal arts weren't developed or practiced at the shaolin temple, but they're a part of this kuntao style, which was apparently called "shaolin" in Indonesia.
Whatever people call it, I just think that the fact that the art has come through Indonesia, and changed there, shouldn't be passed over like a footnote. It's the identity of the style, whether Sin The wants to deny it or not. It's something to be proud of, not hidden. Of course, to someone who's ethnic heritage was persecuted in Indonesia, being from Indonesia may not be something to be proud of. I can see why they may not want to give their home country any credit, or identify themselves or their style as Indonesian. But regardless of family and ethnic pride, it's the truth.

Indonesian Shaolin kung fu? Shaolin kuntao? Shaolin tao? Sin The's butt kickin' kentucky karotty? I don't really care so long as we tell the truth about where it comes from. and keep the training "real".

[MasterKiller]

Once again ...didnt even slightly resemble any of it....???:rolleyes:

What seems to be the problem with calling it Shaolin ??

Its just a name.

a label

BFD

You can call it "Dog $h!t on my lawn" for all I care

Its people that have this attitude, that think they know what shaolin is and what it is not that really turn me off from spending anytime with other CMA artists.

F#king elitists

...I know what the flavor of CMA is, I know what it is "supposed "to look like but I have to say that most of the CMA that I have seen is completely useless in a real fight.

It may look pretty, but F#cking useless!

SD is a branch of a large tree that because of its migration and geographical location took on a different form.

What is everyones problem with that???

I do not call it Kung Fu or Karate ... Its just Shaolin Martial Arts everyone has this big issue with it being called kung fu or Karate ....... once again another F#CKING label.

Next you will be saying that because the Vietnamese, Japanese, etc. versions of Shaolin are not done the same wayyou think they should be done that they are not shaolin either ,right??:eek::rolleyes:


Get over yourself.....Shut up and go train!!

Yeah , lets just drop a name that has been used for over how many years just to satisfy all of you!!! Oy Vey

Man, for someone who doesn't care about labels, you sure are attached to the "shaolin" label.

[goju]

http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/stances.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/basiccomponents.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/warmups.mp4
if hes an sd guy his explanations were more detailed than what i was shown

his fighting stance was too sideways though

[Judge Pen]

http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/stances.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/basiccomponents.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/warmups.mp4

I knew Master Garry was going to put up some basic fundamental videos, but I hadn't seen them yet. Thanks for finding and sharing them.

[Judge Pen]

if hes an sd guy his explanations were more detailed than what i was shown

his fighting stance was too sideways though

He is one of the 8th degree masters. His fundamentals are excellent. As you know, the basic sparring stance is taught sideways with students developing a stance that works best for them as they grow in skill and learn how their bodies work. When he was talking about putting videos up he wanted to show what one could expect in their first few fundamental classes.

I think he is 53 or 54 now. He can hold that horse stance indefinatly too. Very solid foundation.

[bodhi warrior]

Why don't we just say, once and for all, that SD and CSC teach a kuntao style from Indonesia, which has its roots in the styles taught by Chinese immigrants to Bandung in Western Java.
It looks different and has different methods from mainland and Taiwan Chinese styles because it was geographically seperated, and influenced by elements of the local styles and culture, as well as blending elements of several Chinese styles which were taught together instead of as seperate disciplines.
Compound this with inadequate or hasty instruction for a large number of students, some of whom go on to become instructors themselves, and you end up with something that just looks like a mess. But there are elements of the system which are worthwhile, even if it isn't a "pure" Chinese martial art.
If one were to take a step back, ensure solid training of fundamentals, and re-focus the curriculum on a core set of forms (not trying to teach over a hundred of them in the course of a few short years), that system would produce more solid martial artists who could be proud of their style and their skills.
If we tell the truth, as best we know it, about the origins of the style and the forms, it will lead to fewer questions down the road. Myths and legends are still fun stories to tell, but don't let students confuse them for factual occurrences.

I say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's a core of a good style here, if the focus could just be shifted.

I would agree.

[bodhi warrior]

I am on one today... I had this guy watch me train yesterday and he said to me, " I like your style, what martial art style is that" I told him that it was CMA . He said "it cant be because you wearing a GI , a Japanese uniform.:rolleyes::eek:......

The gi thing just kills me.
Three styles that I have seen that wear gi's: fut gar, shaolin nam pai chuan, shaolin do. All three are from southern china, all three have been described by many as karate like. I've also seen jow ga people wearing gi's, as well as hong yi mien's internal school in taiwan.

[bodhi warrior]

http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/stances.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/basiccomponents.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/warmups.mp4

This guy looks like he has the goods.

[tattooedmonk]

Man, for someone who doesn't care about labels, you sure are attached to the "shaolin" label. No...not really:D I am into the philosophy and spiritual developement.

[BoulderDawg]

My gi says "Shao-lin" on the back....so it must be so

[BoulderDawg]

I think he is 53 or 54 now. He can hold that horse stance indefinatly too. Very solid foundation.

I wouldn't care if he's 20 I'm calling BS on that one...unless your horse stance is a lot different from mine.

My horse stance is back straight, thighs horizonal.

[Judge Pen]

I wouldn't care if he's 20 I'm calling BS on that one...unless your horse stance is a lot different from mine.

My horse stance is back straight, thighs horizonal.

Perhaps hyperbole took effect there, so let me clarify.

In the first video, when he is instructing on the basics of making a fist and throwing a punch, he is in his horse stance. You can see that his stance is 5 hands wide, thighs horizontal and back straight. I've seen him address the class like that for at least 5 minutes straight with no sign of fatigue. I've seen him then lead his class through their forms with him not showing any effect of holding a horse stance for 5 mintues (if it were me my stances would be very sloppy because of leg fatigue).

Another example from my personal observation. Every year he would lead his black belt students through a vigourous conditioning class. One of the requirements is holding a thigh-parallel horse stance for three sets 2 minute incriments. The way it normally worked as 2 minute horse stance, one minute bo stance on each leg. 100 push ups, 100 sit-ups, a set of kick excercises and then repeat this sequence 3 more times. His rationale for that is too often he would see "black belts" get lazy and fat and not be able to do the basics so if you wanted to call yourself a black belt under his supervision, then you had to be able to do these basic things.

Final example, I took a seminar from him where he taught SD-s 5 animal form. It was a 5 day seminar. For those who don't know, our 5 animal form is essentially the same form of Doc Fai Wong's and it takes a little over 2 and a half minutes to do the entire form full speed. The last day of the seminar he took the last 30 minutes to walk through the form. He told us by the end of the walk-through, no one would have any more questions about the form. He then led us through a walk through where he made us all hold each transitional stance for several seconds while he talked about the fundamentals and applications for each technique and answered any questions about that technique, but you had to hold the stance with him the entire time. By the end of the form "walk-though" me legs were a quivering mess, and I had to stand up several time before going back to the stance, but I never saw a sign of fatigue from Master Garry.

He really stresses conditioning and fundamentals. He trains all of his bent leg stances to be done with the butt at the knee for stength and conditioning. He often leads his class through 3 sets of one-legged squats (10 on each leg for each set) during the warm-up excercises.So when I said 'indefintely', I apologize for exagerating. I've never seen him hold the stance indefinatly. I have seen him do the things like I mentioned above, on several ocassions, with no apparent weakness or after effects. I can only speculate how long he could hold a horse stance, but I would put him up against almost any martial artist I met on conditioning especially at his age.

Is that better?

[goju]

i witnessed the sd five animal form demonstrated by a black belt under the soards and it didnt resemble wongs at all

did the one you learn have these "BOI" "BOI" calls that were supose to mimic the cranes call?
also the one i witnsessed had some rolling around on the floor that was suppose to be monkey i guess

[Judge Pen]

i witnessed the sd five animal form demonstrated by a black belt under the soards and it didnt resemble wongs at all

did the one you learn have these "BOI" "BOI" calls that were supose to mimic the cranes call?
also the one i witnsessed had some rolling around on the floor that was suppose to be monkey i guess

No and no. Monkey isn't one of the 5 animals from the 5 animal form (in wongs or SDs). There's 5 animal play--I've seen some SD people do animal sounds with that, but even then, the 5 animal play monkey doesn't roll in the floor.

Trust me, I've compared wongs form to ours and a couple of minor differences aside, its the same form.

[bodhi warrior]

i witnessed the sd five animal form demonstrated by a black belt under the soards and it didnt resemble wongs at all

did the one you learn have these "BOI" "BOI" calls that were supose to mimic the cranes call?
also the one i witnsessed had some rolling around on the floor that was suppose to be monkey i guess


This is probably master hiang's 5 animals. It includes monkey and bear.
It's much shorter and totally different than the doc fai wong form.

[SDJerry]

I've seen him then lead his class through their forms with him not showing any effect of holding a horse stance for 5 mintues (if it were me my stances would be very sloppy because of leg fatigue).

Hung Gar is HUGE on leg training. We spend at least the first half hour of every class training stances. We start from the horse and return to that stance in between every other stance. Then, if Sifu is feeling exceptionally nasty, he'll set the timer for 5 minutes and have us hold a horse........ AFTER all the stance traning we just did hahaha

I know the shake you are talking about too... he calls it the milk shake. :D He has said on many occasions that he looks for that to see if you are really pushing yourself. The training really pays off though!

[sean_stonehart]

Hung Gar is HUGE on leg training. We spend at least the first half hour of every class training stances. We start from the horse and return to that stance in between every other stance. Then, if Sifu is feeling exceptionally nasty, he'll set the timer for 5 minutes and have us hold a horse........ AFTER all the stance traning we just did hahaha

I know the shake you are talking about too... he calls it the milk shake. :D He has said on many occasions that he looks for that to see if you are really pushing yourself. The training really pays off though!

You're with Sifu Mike Marshall there in louisville, right?

[SDJerry]

You're with Sifu Mike Marshall there in louisville, right?

Yes, he's a great teacher! I thought I knew a little before I started training with him but quickly learned I didn't know anything hahaha To be honest, it was like starting over but man have I learned a lot!

[sean_stonehart]

Yes, he's a great teacher! I thought I knew a little before I started training with him but quickly learned I didn't know anything hahaha To be honest, it was like starting over but man have I learned a lot!

He comes from a strong teacher & lineage. He wouldn't be teaching with their names attached if he wasn't!! Good stuff!! Enjoy it.

[brucereiter]

Perhaps hyperbole took effect there, so let me clarify.

In the first video, when he is instructing on the basics of making a fist and throwing a punch, he is in his horse stance. You can see that his stance is 5 hands wide, thighs horizontal and back straight. I've seen him address the class like that for at least 5 minutes straight with no sign of fatigue. I've seen him then lead his class through their forms with him not showing any effect of holding a horse stance for 5 mintues (if it were me my stances would be very sloppy because of leg fatigue).

Another example from my personal observation. Every year he would lead his black belt students through a vigourous conditioning class. One of the requirements is holding a thigh-parallel horse stance for three sets 2 minute incriments. The way it normally worked as 2 minute horse stance, one minute bo stance on each leg. 100 push ups, 100 sit-ups, a set of kick excercises and then repeat this sequence 3 more times. His rationale for that is too often he would see "black belts" get lazy and fat and not be able to do the basics so if you wanted to call yourself a black belt under his supervision, then you had to be able to do these basic things.

Final example, I took a seminar from him where he taught SD-s 5 animal form. It was a 5 day seminar. For those who don't know, our 5 animal form is essentially the same form of Doc Fai Wong's and it takes a little over 2 and a half minutes to do the entire form full speed. The last day of the seminar he took the last 30 minutes to walk through the form. He told us by the end of the walk-through, no one would have any more questions about the form. He then led us through a walk through where he made us all hold each transitional stance for several seconds while he talked about the fundamentals and applications for each technique and answered any questions about that technique, but you had to hold the stance with him the entire time. By the end of the form "walk-though" me legs were a quivering mess, and I had to stand up several time before going back to the stance, but I never saw a sign of fatigue from Master Garry.

He really stresses conditioning and fundamentals. He trains all of his bent leg stances to be done with the butt at the knee for stength and conditioning. He often leads his class through 3 sets of one-legged squats (10 on each leg for each set) during the warm-up excercises.So when I said 'indefintely', I apologize for exagerating. I've never seen him hold the stance indefinatly. I have seen him do the things like I mentioned above, on several ocassions, with no apparent weakness or after effects. I can only speculate how long he could hold a horse stance, but I would put him up against almost any martial artist I met on conditioning especially at his age.

Is that better?

in the few chances i had to train with master mullins i observed the same things ... the man is fit!

[tattooedmonk]

I wouldn't care if he's 20 I'm calling BS on that one...unless your horse stance is a lot different from mine.

My horse stance is back straight, thighs horizonal.I think what your seeing or not seeing in this case is caused by the angle of the shot . They should do a profile shot of him like they did with the bow stance. As you can see his back is very straight in those profile shots.

You are right, the back should be straight , the thighs should be parallel to the floor, with the feet turned in square ( on the outside of the foot not the inside)with your hips and shoulders.

[BoulderDawg]

I think what your seeing or not seing in this case is caused by the angle of the shot . They should do a profile shot of him like they did with the bow stance. As you can see his back is very staright in those profile shots.

You are right, the back should be straight , the thighs should be parallel to the floor, with the feet turned in square ( on the outside of the foot not the inside)with your hips and shoulders.


What shot? I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.

[tattooedmonk]

What shot? I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.LMAO.....You were criticizing his horse stance , correct?? By your statement it indicates that you do not think his thighs are parallel to the floor and his back is not straight , correct??

[BoulderDawg]

LMAO.....You were criticizing his horse stance , correct??


Don't know the dude...never seen his horse stance

[tattooedmonk]

Don't know the dude...never seen his horse stancepost 12361:D

[Judge Pen]

Don't know the dude...never seen his horse stance

Did you watch the videos that ttm put up? You can see his horse stance there. I uderstand you were criticizing my comments as I exgagerated. I think I addressed that.

[BoulderDawg]

I wouldn't care if he's 20 I'm calling BS on that one...unless your horse stance is a lot different from mine.

My horse stance is back straight, thighs horizonal.

Here's the post.

Just where exactly do I make any claims about knowing this guy or criticizing his horse stance?

[BoulderDawg]

Did you watch the videos that ttm put up? You can see his horse stance there. I uderstand you were criticizing my comments as I exgagerated. I think I addressed that.


Holding a horse stance indefinitely is exactly what I was talking about.

Where ever all this talk about seeing this guy in a picture and criticizing his horse stance comes from I honestly don't have a clue. I think people need to learn to read.

[tattooedmonk]

Here's the post.

Just where exactly do I make any claims about knowing this guy or criticizing his horse stance?When you indicated that there was/ might be a difference and that yours was back straight and thighs horizontal. I thought you were saying his wasnt...thats all

My mistake , I misunderstood what you were saying.

I am not attacking you brother, relax:D

[tattooedmonk]

Holding a horse stance indefinitely is exactly what I was talking about.

Where ever all this talk about seeing this guy in a picture and criticizing his horse stance comes from I honestly don't have a clue. I think people need to learn to read.Like I posted above, my mistake....:cool:

[Leto]

Here's a hypothetical for everyone.
If you had to pick only ten empty hand forms from SD to be a "core" curriculum, what would they be? You could consider the three cranes as one form, and the three birds could be one form as well. Maybe the black tigers could all be one form, if you want. You can have 10 weapon forms, too. Short forms, sparring techs, chin na and one step drills don't count, those are basic training.
hsing i five roads and twelve animals probably shouldn't count as forms either, they are also fundamental training, if you're doing hsing i those have to be there.

I'm really just curious what different people feel are the most important forms in the system, or maybe just which ones you like the most. You can include seminar forms that aren't part of the testing curriculum yet, if you want.

Should external and internal be considered seperately, or would your ten forms have a mix of both?

Here's an example

Chie Chien
Ching Kong Fu Hu Chien
Lien Wu Chang
Bai Hao
Shaolin Niao (luo tien, chan ie, yen hur)
San He Chien
Hei Hu
CMC Yang 37 taijiquan
JRQ classical baguazhang
hsing i linkage

[brucereiter]

Here's a hypothetical for everyone.
If you had to pick only ten empty hand forms from SD to be a "core" curriculum, what would they be? You could consider the three cranes as one form, and the three birds could be one form as well. Maybe the black tigers could all be one form, if you want. You can have 10 weapon forms, too. Short forms, sparring techs, chin na and one step drills don't count, those are basic training.
hsing i five roads and twelve animals probably shouldn't count as forms either, they are also fundamental training, if you're doing hsing i those have to be there.

I'm really just curious what different people feel are the most important forms in the system, or maybe just which ones you like the most. You can include seminar forms that aren't part of the testing curriculum yet, if you want.

Should external and internal be considered seperately, or would your ten forms have a mix of both?

Here's an example

Chie Chien
Ching Kong Fu Hu Chien
Lien Wu Chang
Bai Hao
Shaolin Niao (luo tien, chan ie, yen hur)
San He Chien
Hei Hu
CMC Yang 37 taijiquan
JRQ classical baguazhang
hsing i linkage

well, good questions ...

since i left the system a while back. here is a list of what i kept, still practice, study and find of great value that i learned at the csc atlanta.

i chin ching
houtein chi / shein tien chi (my understanding of shein tien chi is limited though)
yang 64 tai chi chuan
24 tai chi chuan
hsing i 5 roads aka 5 elements
hsing i linking
chen xin jia 83
jrq pakua (although i do not practice this style more than once a week or 2 since i am learning gao bagua and do not want to confuse the 2. but i also do not want to forget jrq bagua)

5 animal live/dead (5 animal frolics) i do not practice these very often but i do use some of the movements to help if i am feeling pain in my back.

other than that i have left it behind me. some of the forms i can still do even if i have not tried them in months but i would not say i practice them.

that in my opinion is a lot of material.

[One student]

Its been nearly three days, and no posts. Is it over? Has it all been said? Where do I go if I want to keep in touch with other SD'ers when this thread is done?

[BoulderDawg]

Gossip just off the SD hotline: Someone was telling me today that the nine schools that broke away from the Soards are now under Master Gary Mullins.

Don't know if it's true or not. I have doubts that Mullins would get involved so easily but maybe he did.

[Judge Pen]

Gossip just off the SD hotline: Someone was telling me today that the nine schools that broke away from the Soards are now under Master Gary Mullins.

Don't know if it's true or not. I have doubts that Mullins would get involved so easily but maybe he did.

I doubt it, especially if they were "removed" from the system.

[One student]

I doubt it, especially if they were "removed" from the system.

Isn't Gary still in good standing with GMS? Then if true, an arrangement had to have been struck between GMS, GMullins, and the 9. But with or without Soards consent? If the 9 were truly down only on Soards, but wanted to stick with SD/GMS, associating with another high level instructor instead would be just the ticket, other than the distance.

And would anyone disagree, that if those schools were used to Soards' methods, but now will be under GMullins' philosophy, from what I've heard, aren't they in for a whole new world?

[tattooedmonk]

Gossip just off the SD hotline: Someone was telling me today that the nine schools that broke away from the Soards are now under Master Gary Mullins.

Don't know if it's true or not. I have doubts that Mullins would get involved so easily but maybe he did.shouldnt speculate until all is said and done...just curious as to who told you this because no one is supposed to be saying anything yet......

[BoulderDawg]

Little birdie:D

[tattooedmonk]

little birdie:dlmao........

[kungfujunky]

under Master Mullins and Master Grooms.

[tattooedmonk]

under Master Mullins and Master Grooms.That's ELDER Master GaRRy Mullins and SENIOR Master GaRY Grooms to you :eek::D......Really??:DInteresting ......curious as to where this will all go.:)

[tattooedmonk]

IT WHAT YOU HAVE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR

http://www.shaolincenter.com/affiliate_schools.html

[BoulderDawg]

So The' signed off on that then and let those two instructors in Phoenix back into the art?

Would love to hear the story behind that!

[Tao Of The Fist]

So The' signed off on that then and let those two instructors in Phoenix back into the art?

Would love to hear the story behind that!

I don't think that he let them back in per se, so much as they were smuggled in like crack cocaine from Venezuela...

GM The is in a real clusterfluck, because he let the EMs Dave and Sharon write that letter under his authority; yet, he can't lose a significant part of his SD family either. But he's in this whether he wants to be or not, and he has to make a choice.

[BoulderDawg]

I don't think that he let them back in per se, so much as they were smuggled in like crack cocaine from Venezuela...

GM The is in a real clusterfluck, because he let the EMs Dave and Sharon write that letter under his authority; yet, he can't lose a significant part of his SD family either. But he's in this whether he wants to be or not, and he has to make a choice.

It's all confusing.

Here's what I don't understand, if The' did not let these two instructors back into the art then it sounds as if Mullins and Grooms are going rogue here by recognizing them.

I can't believe they did that without The's knowledge.

[Tao Of The Fist]

It's all confusing.

Here's what I don't understand, if The' did not let these two instructors back into the art then it sounds as if Mullins and Grooms are going rogue here by recognizing them.

I can't believe they did that without The's knowledge.

Well, from what I can tell, going rogue isn't what isn't what I would call it necessarily... more like a moral difference. EM Dave had no right to throw them out IMO. Sin The of course believed the EM over their students, but now he is going to regret getting involved without knowing all the facts, and for letting the Soards act under his authority. However, EM Mullins and SM Grooms, who have had good standings with alot of people out West (excluding the Soards), I believe are doing themselves a favor by associating with these schools. Without sounding cliche or anything, the fate of SD depends on what happens next..

[OldandUsed]

GMT has had a long and troubled history of siding with the senior student just because they were the senior student. I have first hand experience on that one and have been around him since 1970. But the actual letter to the students regarding the new Shaolin "friends" with Mullins and Grooms is on the Bovine site.

[BoulderDawg]

Just saw the letter from GMS reinstating Jake and Laura into the SD good graces again.

I would still like to know what happened. Just a total guess here: Since it's both Grooms and Mullins I'm thinking maybe the Soards sold the rights of the school to them????? Who knows anymore. What a crazy mess!:eek:

[OldandUsed]

Yes, it is odd to go back and forth like that.

[tattooedmonk]

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1097/grandmasterthereinstate.jpg

[tattooedmonk]

So The' signed off on that then and let those two instructors in Phoenix back into the art?

Would love to hear the story behind that!Wouldnt you though....??;)

[SDJerry]

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1097/grandmasterthereinstate.jpg

Notice the official letterhead says "Karate Club". IMO they should take a closer look at their brand. These inconsistencies are a large part of why the club catches so much flak.

[tattooedmonk]

Well, from what I can tell, going rogue isn't what isn't what I would call it necessarily... more like a moral difference. EM Dave had no right to throw them out IMO. Sin The of course believed the EM over their students, but now he is going to regret getting involved without knowing all the facts, and for letting the Soards act under his authority. However, EM Mullins and SM Grooms, who have had good standings with alot of people out West (excluding the Soards), I believe are doing themselves a favor by associating with these schools. Without sounding cliche or anything, the fate of SD depends on what happens next..Interesting observations....

[tattooedmonk]

Notice the official letterhead says "Karate Club". IMO they should take a closer look at their brand. These inconsistencies are a large part of why the club catches so much flak.Some people are afraid of change...... while others embrace it... Change is a part of life and happens around us whether we want it or not.

Things are changing around and within the system, if it wants to survive it has to embrace it and flow with it ........

Its natures law, not mine. It is The Way of the Tao.......



After all,we are in a new millenium arent we?:D

[Judge Pen]

All this is really interesting. It makes financial sense (aside from morally correct) to not cast off these students that object to David Soard and his actions. It's unfortunate that it had to happen this way and we had to have a removal and then a reinstatment within a couple of weeks. I doubt we will ever know why all this happened.

[BoulderDawg]

The letter was a little strange. I'm not doubting it's validity but it was strange. Very generic in content.

Also, I'm not privy to everything in the Sin The' organization but I'd never seen that logo before or heard of the Karate "Club" . I've heard of the Sin The' Karate School but not of the Karate Club.

In any case I guess money talks but to be honest this would be like being fired from a job. If I was fired from a job I'm not sure I would want to go back if my boss came back a month later and told me I wasn't fired. Especially if he never asked me to come back but rather just sent me a letter saying I had my job back.

[ShaolinGirl]

As stated in the post
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2243081&postcount=125
---------

The following was released this morning to the Phoenix CSC students (I have removed font colors to make it more legible on this site):

---------------------------
Hello again Shaolin,

We have recently formed more friendships within our Shaolin System. The newest Shaolin schools in our network are in Georgia and Tennessee. The schools in Georgia are headed by Senior Master Gary Grooms and Master Michael Reid. The schools in Tennessee are headed by Elder Master Garry Mullins. Please feel free to visit their below websites for more information and a list of their schools:

www.ShaolinCenter.com
www.Mullins-Shaolin.com

All students are more than welcome to travel to, visit, and train at these schools or attend seminars they may be holding. Their students are also more than welcome in Phoenix, Arizona. Please let us know in Phoenix before you do attend any out of state classes so we can tell them you are coming! These newest Masters do not own our school but have been great supporters of ours as we will be of theirs. We look forward to training with them and getting to know them and their students in the years ahead.

Elder Master Mullins and family, and Senior Master Grooms and family, and possibly Master Matt Small, Master John Keller, Joe Weiland, Thad Wong, etc. will be coming to Phoenix over the November 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th (Thursday - Sunday) week and weekend. I would love to have everyone in classes that Thursday and Saturday to meet our newest Shaolin friends! Don't miss these dates!

Below is the new announcement and CSC History that will be displayed on our website very soon!

Much success and excitement in your training ahead,

Jake Rydberg

===================
CSC History

The CSC Phoenix was founded in 1991 and is in its 18th year, now located in Tempe, Arizona. The head instructors / owners of the Phoenix CSC are 3rd Degree Black Belt Jacob Rydberg and 2nd Degree Black Belt Laura Adams. While continuing to teach and pass down the Shaolin art to new enthusiastic Shaolin, Laura and Jacob are current students themselves constantly training and advancing in the Shaolin art. They also enjoy training and visiting with other great Shaolin Masters and Masters of the Martial Arts. Please check the school nearest you, whether New York, Idaho, Las Vegas, Portland, Seattle, San Jose', Georgia, and Tennessee.


Our Shaolin network is very strong and supportive. We honor our current collection of friendly instructors and schools including our newest martial arts relationships with Elder Master Gary Mullins in Tennessee and Senior Master Gary Grooms in Georgia. We are looking forward to the training and experiences that we as well as our students will have available with Master Mullins and Master Grooms in the years ahead. Thank you to Elder Master Mullins, Senior Master Grooms, and their students and instructors for being true examples of Shaolin -- skillful in external and internal kung fu as well as having a strong martial arts code of ethics.

This year, 2009, is truly a year to reflect on the Phoenix. Not only is it the name of our wonderful city but it reminds us to embrace and enjoy the change that the great Phoenix bird represents. This year has been a year of rebirth. We are constantly enhancing the experience at the Chinese Shao-Lin Center in Phoenix to maintain the wonderful support of our great students. We have an enlightening and electric school because of you all, the students!

The Instructors and Students at our school are preparing for the upcoming 2011 China Trip, visiting even more unique, historic and remote locations than any trip prior! Come join us!

Sincerely,

Laura Adams and Jacob Rydberg

[starr]

New development:

The reason GMT did the weird flip-flopp is that the 2 instructors in Phx/Tempe threatened to sue him for Victim harrasment and to have him arrested if he didn't reinstate them in the art.

He's running scared. Funny how all it took was a 2nd and a 3rd black to bring him to his knees?

More 'inside' details soon...

[BoulderDawg]

New development:

The reason GMT did the weird flip-flopp is that the 2 instructors in Phx/Tempe threatened to sue him for Victim harrasment and to have him arrested if he didn't reinstate them in the art.

He's running scared. Funny how all it took was a 2nd and a 3rd black to bring him to his knees?

More 'inside' details soon...

I have no love for The' but I don't believe that. Not asking you to reveal your source but where are you from and how did you come about your information?

By the way what you described in that first paragraph is called blackmail. That's a crime in itself. Do you really want to accuse Laura and Jake of this?

Nasty, nasty business here.

[sean_stonehart]

That's craptacular.

I'd have to see it in original B&W before I'd believe that about anybody.

That's blackmail straight up & considering it's across state lines, that'd be relatively serious & large scale on the punishment scale.

I just don't buy it... not at all. Until proven otherwise, I'm calling sh1tty****** on it...

[starr]

The tattooedmonk can mark my words. He knows I'm wright.:eek:

I've got the in with Grooms, The', and Jacob/Laura, and people close to the Soards.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm giving the news as I know it. Heard those words myself.

Think about it. What the hell happened in a few short days that GMT throws a 180? You guys aren't that stupid. It doesn't take a freakin Sherlock Holmes to figure this mystery out. I'm surprised no one already knew.

Oh, and by the way, I've been following this post and you guys have really hit on some accurate speculations, but in other parts you are so way off!:D

Right tattooedmonk?

I've got the scoop. If you don't want it, I'm out.