Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BoulderDawg]

I've got the in with .........Jacob/Laura,......

Really? If you're a friend of theirs then I would hate to see their enemy list!:D

What school do you train at?

[tattooedmonk]

new development:

The reason gmt did the weird flip-flopp is that the 2 instructors in phx/tempe threatened to sue him for victim harrasment and to have him arrested if he didn't reinstate them in the art.

He's running scared. Funny how all it took was a 2nd and a 3rd black to bring him to his knees?

More 'inside' details soon...b.s. Not true

[tattooedmonk]

The tattooedmonk can mark my words. He knows I'm wright.:eek:

I've got the in with Grooms, The', and Jacob/Laura, and people close to the Soards.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm giving the news as I know it. Heard those words myself.

Think about it. What the hell happened in a few short days that GMT throws a 180? You guys aren't that stupid. It doesn't take a freakin Sherlock Holmes to figure this mystery out. I'm surprised no one already knew.

Oh, and by the way, I've been following this post and you guys have really hit on some accurate speculations, but in other parts you are so way off!:D

Right tattooedmonk?

I've got the scoop. If you don't want it, I'm out.BFD... you know who I am.... what do you have to gain by trying to front me off??:rolleyes:
who is it that you heard these words from?? I am curious.
I know that your perception is slightly distorted.....:eek::D

Doesnt make sense...think about it

[tattooedmonk]

That's craptacular.

I'd have to see it in original B&W before I'd believe that about anybody.

That's blackmail straight up & considering it's across state lines, that'd be relatively serious & large scale on the punishment scale.

I just don't buy it... not at all. Until proven otherwise, I'm calling sh1tty****** on it...See.....even you can see through that B.S.;):pand you dont even like or practice SD....... anymore:eek::D

[starr]

Don't be shy, tattooedmonk:D

I can't expect you to be in the know since you haven't been in good standing with GMT since the late 90's. But hey, we all make mistakes. That's a discussion for another time.

Now poking around calling the Shaolin schools to get info is not the same as being there. What happens day in and out is the real ticket.

BD:

Now you know I can't reveal that!:D

But their enemies list is growing and includes the GM. I wouldn't call him a coward, but more of a 'lie in wait' kind of guy.

And with in fighting in the break away schools, I can't imagine the enemies list is not going to keep growing.:mad:

[BoulderDawg]

I'm giving the news as I know it. Heard those words myself.

You heard Jake and Laura tell The' they were going to get him arrested if he did not reinstate them?

When and where did this conversation take place?

Also you said you are on the inside with Grooms, Jake/Laura, The' and people close to the Soards. How? Grooms is in the southeast total separate from the Soard group. How could you be "in" with all of these people?

[sean_stonehart]

See.....even you can see through that B.S.;):pand you dont even like or practice SD....... anymore:eek::D

I just don't practice it any longer. Many of my good friends do. What I don't like is the backstory & related issues.

I see lots... But this is BS plugging anybody's name in the slots.

[starr]

Sean_S,

I'm no lawyer, but if it is "blackmail straight up" I suppose that GMT has some new options. He should definitely start looking into that. But I'm guessing that it's his word against theirs. And there are other things he's worried about.

[sean_stonehart]

Sean_S,

I'm no lawyer, but if it is "blackmail straight up" I suppose that GMT has some new options. He should definitely start looking into that. But I'm guessing that it's his word against theirs. And there are other things he's worried about.

Yeah maybe so, but until you drop your proof you claim out in the open... I'm still claiming sh1ttydanmit all the way... If you do otherwise, possibly my perspective would change... until then... save the drama. There's enough going on for the SD world right now.

No need to air it here or anywhere else unless it's uncontrovertable & stone solid.

[starr]

BD

C'mon, you know I can't reveal my source or my identity!:rolleyes:

All the info is there and speculation is your forte. I've no doubt that you'll figure out the answers to your questions.

But you're going to have to actually put forth some effort!:D

[BoulderDawg]

Sean_S,

I'm no lawyer, but if it is "blackmail straight up" I suppose that GMT has some new options. He should definitely start looking into that. But I'm guessing that it's his word against theirs. And there are other things he's worried about.


What the hell? In for a penny, in for a pound, Right?

Just exactly what were the charges they were threatening to arrest The' on? I've heard wild rumors of this myself and I just want to see our info is the same.

You've gone this far. Tell us why The' should be in the hoose gow!:D

[tattooedmonk]

Don't be shy, tattooedmonk:D

I can't expect you to be in the know since you haven't been in good standing with GMT since the late 90's. But hey, we all make mistakes. That's a discussion for another time.

Now poking around calling the Shaolin schools to get info is not the same as being there. What happens day in and out is the real ticket.

BD:

Now you know I can't reveal that!:D

But their enemies list is growing and includes the GM. I wouldn't call him a coward, but more of a 'lie in wait' kind of guy.

And with in fighting in the break away schools, I can't imagine the enemies list is not going to keep growing.:mad:Actually, I havent been associated with the art for five years going on six. Yeah so, I made few mistakes in my life..... but I am sure you are perfect.:p

When was it when GMT bought and moved into his "New" House in the SFV??What year was that?? I was there, I can tell you that much, but that doesnt mean anything ......:rolleyes:

So what, I called a few schools to find more info than I knew already..... Again your point??

I know for a FACT that what you are saying is NOT TRUE. It is a your perception or what you heard, it is incorrect ......BUt I can understand how someone could have this distorted perception.......

BTW might as well quit with the jabs , it really means nothing to me or adds anything to the topic of conversation.....

so, once again BFD if you know who I am, where I have been and what I have done or failed to do BLAH BLAH BLAH whatever...

[tattooedmonk]

a coward and obviously looking for attention , now you've got it. You want attention but wont give your name?? HMMM I smell BS
So what do you have for us that can be substantiated with some type of proof and/ or facts ....until then, your words mean nothing .

[tattooedmonk]

What the hell? In for a penny, in for a pound, Right?

Just exactly what were the charges they were threatening to arrest The' on? I've heard wild rumors of this myself and I just want to see our info is the same.

You've gone this far. Tell us why The' should be in the hoose gow!:DIt is a rumor based on distorted perception and inaccurate information...nothing more......

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah maybe so, but until you drop your proof you claim out in the open... I'm still claiming sh1ttydanmit all the way... If you do otherwise, possibly my perspective would change... until then... save the drama. There's enough going on for the SD world right now.

No need to air it here or anywhere else unless it's uncontrovertable & stone solid.eggsalad!!!!

[BoulderDawg]

It is a rumor based on distorted perception and inaccurate information...nothing more......

I could be wrong but I don't think this guy is talking about the "Victim harrassment". I think he might be hinting at something else. That's the reason I asked him just what exactly did The' do.

Anyway, let's enjoy these posts foras long as we can. I'm sure they will disappear before long!:p

[starr]

Tatooedmonk,

I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers!:)

Your secrets are safe with me and I'm not trying to take jabs at you.

I'm not about speculation. I've got some know and I'm just sharing with the group.

No lies (unless I was lied to), nor speculation here.

Saying that my words are BS or speculation is a jab to me too.

But I'm not holding any grudges!:):):)

[Judge Pen]

Here's the issue starr. You have made 6 posts. No one know who you are, what your experiences are, or how you are in such a position to know these things. Call us cynical, but anonomyous sources have zero credibility. I'm not even commenting on what you are saying, but why should anyone believe it? It's not like people haven't tried to troll these issues before.

Unless you are willing to identify yourself and your background, then no one will believe you.

[tattooedmonk]

I could be wrong but I don't think this guy is talking about the "Victim harrassment". I think he might be hinting at something else. That's the reason I asked him just what exactly did The' do.

Anyway, let's enjoy these posts foras long as we can. I'm sure they will disappear before long!:pTo me its funny, but its almost like this person is trying to out me or something......yeah, like I would say anything to incriminate myself...again:eek::D....HA

[tattooedmonk]

Tatooedmonk,

I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers!:)

Your secrets are safe with me and I'm not trying to take jabs at you.

I'm not about speculation. I've got some know and I'm just sharing with the group.

No lies (unless I was lied to), nor speculation here.

Saying that my words are BS or speculation is a jab to me too.

But I'm not holding any grudges!:):):)I dont have any secrets anymore , sorry .:D:cool:
...I can tell you why you are wrong based on the info that is available to all of us.
logic would tell you something different than what you are saying.

Why dont you reveal yourself...??

[Tao Of The Fist]

I have no secrets anymore , sorry .:D:cool:
...I can tell you why you are wrong based on the info that is available to all of us.
logic would tell you something different than what you are saying.

Why dont you reveal yourself...??

Because what fun would it be if everybody knew that? Anonymous trolling is like being a superhero that way, but trolls just annoy the fluck outta everyone...

The point is if he/she really knew what it was talking about, then it wouldn't need to hide it's sources or it's identity.

Hey JP What's Crackin on the East Coast?

[Judge Pen]

Hey JP What's Crackin on the East Coast?

Don't know much myself. I don't get to go to class anymore so I don't get any gossip or news on SD politics. Most of my time is spent at work or with the family with a little time to play around in some martial arts from time to time in between. I miss the time training in school, but don't miss all the politics. I may get back into class someday. I certainly want my daughter to learn when she gets old enough so this will always be a part of my life.

[tattooedmonk]

Because what fun would it be if everybody knew that? Anonymous trolling is like being a superhero that way, but trolls just annoy the fluck outta everyone...

The point is if he/she really knew what it was talking about, then it wouldn't need to hide it's sources or it's identity.

Hey JP What's Crackin on the East Coast?....just makes me wonder why someone would TRY to throw me under the bus though:confused:.....whatever

[Tao Of The Fist]

Don't know much myself. I don't get to go to class anymore so I don't get any gossip or news on SD politics. Most of my time is spent at work or with the family with a little time to play around in some martial arts from time to time in between. I miss the time training in school, but don't miss all the politics. I may get back into class someday. I certainly want my daughter to learn when she gets old enough so this will always be a part of my life.

Yeah I know where your at almost, except I'm lookin for a job and i'm trying to get a plane ticket to see my family. I dont practice SD anymore either, although I try to maintain the good relationship I have with the ppl in it. You take care now.

[Tao Of The Fist]

....just makes me wonder why someone would TRY to throw me under the bus though:confused:.....whatever

I don't know, maybe you rubbed them the wrong way? Or maybe you accidently hit them upside the head with your kwandao while trying to rush to get to class on time... accidental :D

[tattooedmonk]

I don't know, maybe you rubbed them the wrong way? Or maybe you accidently hit them upside the head with your kwandao while trying to rush to get to class on time... accidental :DYeah , I hear that sometimes.:eek::pI dont have accidents, I do things on purpose.:eek:

[starr]

Here's the issue starr. You have made 6 posts. No one know who you are, what your experiences are, or how you are in such a position to know these things. Call us cynical, but anonomyous sources have zero credibility. I'm not even commenting on what you are saying, but why should anyone believe it? It's not like people haven't tried to troll these issues before.

Unless you are willing to identify yourself and your background, then no one will believe you.

Understood. (Hey I finally figured out this 'quote' thing!)

But I'm personally receiving information from four fronts, so I can't be anything but anonymous right now or I'll lose all of my sources of information. And I'll make quite a few enemies in the process. And I'm not going to be the next person accused of something!:eek:

And I might be new at this forum stuff and don't know what "trolling" is or how things work, but I don't think credibility relies on revealing your own identity.

I'm just passing on the info how it is said to me. This isn't second hand stuff or speculation. And I'm not opening my mouth to be the big man on campus. There's a lot of confusion here and a lot of stuff not coming out. I'm trying to be fair to all sides and I'm keeping my opinions to myself.:cool:

I think it is everyone's right to be cynical, suspicious, and to decide for themselves if my personal information is worthy, accurate, or makes sense.

Like I said, take it or leave it. I'm not trying to force anything down anyone's throat.

[tattooedmonk]

Understood. (Hey I finally figured out this 'quote' thing!)

But I'm personally receiving information from four fronts, so I can't be anything but anonymous right now or I'll lose all of my sources of information. And I'll make quite a few enemies in the process. And I'm not going to be the next person accused of something!:eek:

And I might be new at this forum stuff and don't know what "trolling" is or how things work, but I don't think credibility relies on revealing your own identity.

I'm just passing on the info how it is said to me. This isn't second hand stuff or speculation. And I'm not opening my mouth to be the big man on campus. There's a lot of confusion here and a lot of stuff not coming out. I'm trying to be fair to all sides and I'm keeping my opinions to myself.:cool:

I think it is everyone's right to be cynical, suspicious, and to decide for themselves if my personal information is worthy, accurate, or makes sense.

Like I said, take it or leave it. I'm not trying to force anything down anyone's throat. What are you getting out of all of this then??

Think about what you are saying here.....it just doesnt make sense.

I could try and explain it to you but I doubt you would understand.

[Tao Of The Fist]

Understood. (Hey I finally figured out this 'quote' thing!)

But I'm personally receiving information from four fronts, so I can't be anything but anonymous right now or I'll lose all of my sources of information. And I'll make quite a few enemies in the process. And I'm not going to be the next person accused of something!:eek:

And I might be new at this forum stuff and don't know what "trolling" is or how things work, but I don't think credibility relies on revealing your own identity.

I'm just passing on the info how it is said to me. This isn't second hand stuff or speculation. And I'm not opening my mouth to be the big man on campus. There's a lot of confusion here and a lot of stuff not coming out. I'm trying to be fair to all sides and I'm keeping my opinions to myself.:cool:

I think it is everyone's right to be cynical, suspicious, and to decide for themselves if my personal information is worthy, accurate, or makes sense.

Like I said, take it or leave it. I'm not trying to force anything down anyone's throat.

Well, just for future reference, when presenting information like 'the reason GMT flip flopped was cause he was scared of blackmail', you need to provide a little more information than that, otherwise it sounds like opinion. You don't necessarily need to reveal your sources names if you don't wanna cause trouble, but give an idea of where you got your information. Like for me, I get my info from people directly involved, like the LV instructor here and SM Grooms and people like that. I try to get the correct information but mainly for myself. I don't post alot of the things that are goin on if I feel like the ppl involved dont want me to post it.

[One student]

Don't know much myself. I don't get to go to class anymore so I don't get any gossip or news on SD politics. Most of my time is spent at work or with the family with a little time to play around in some martial arts from time to time in between. I miss the time training in school, but don't miss all the politics. I may get back into class someday. I certainly want my daughter to learn when she gets old enough so this will always be a part of my life.

JP: Your PM quota is full.

[tattooedmonk]

Well, just for future reference, when presenting information like 'the reason GMT flip flopped was cause he was scared of blackmail', you need to provide a little more information than that, otherwise it sounds like opinion. You don't necessarily need to reveal your sources names if you don't wanna cause trouble, but give an idea of where you got your information. Like for me, I get my info from people directly involved, like the LV instructor here and SM Grooms and people like that. I try to get the correct information but mainly for myself. I don't post alot of the things that are goin on if I feel like the ppl involved dont want me to post it.Its obviously someone who has an ax to grind and wants to see what they can stir up . Accusing good people of blackmail is a serious charge....not failing to mention all the holes in that line of thought.:rolleyes:

[BoulderDawg]

The reason he flipped flopped?

I can only guess but I know a little info and it's probably a dam good guess.:D

I personally can't see either Mullins or Grooms getting involved in this situation just because someone from the nine schools contacted them and said, "Can we join you."

I think they were originally contacted by either The' or the Soards and given a business proposition to buy the rights to the nine schools from the Soards. This is what I think happened.

Several questions:

Are they now going to be two schools in Phoenix? If not I really feel for that poor guy who picked up his belongings and moved a 1,000 miles away just to be told several weeks later "Forget it!":D

Also, what's going to happen to the people in Boulder who were kicked out of the art? That's a whole different ballywick.

[starr]

The reason he flipped flopped?

I can only guess but I know a little info and it's probably a dam good guess.:D

I personally can't see either Mullins or Grooms getting involved in this situation just because someone from the nine schools contacted them and said, "Can we join you."

I think they were originally contacted by either The' or the Soards and given a business proposition to buy the rights to the nine schools from the Soards. This is what I think happened.

Several questions:

Are they now going to be two schools in Phoenix? If not I really feel for that poor guy who picked up his belongings and moved a 1,000 miles away just to be told several weeks later "Forget it!":D

Also, what's going to happen to the people in Boulder who were kicked out of the art? That's a whole different ballywick.


Those are **** good questions. That's why you're my favorite on here, BD!;) And you do have the knack for deduction.

[tattooedmonk]

The reason he flipped flopped?

I can only guess but I know a little info and it's probably a dam good guess.:D

I personally can't see either Mullins or Grooms getting involved in this situation just because someone from the nine schools contacted them and said, "Can we join you."

I think they were originally contacted by either The' or the Soards and given a business proposition to buy the rights to the nine schools from the Soards. This is what I think happened.

Several questions:

Are they now going to be two schools in Phoenix? If not I really feel for that poor guy who picked up his belongings and moved a 1,000 miles away just to be told several weeks later "Forget it!":D

Also, what's going to happen to the people in Boulder who were kicked out of the art? That's a whole different ballywick.

Nope....wrong

other school in phoenix.. www.phoenixshaolin.com

They are probably SOL

[BoulderDawg]

Nope....wrong

other school in phoenix.. www.phoenixshaolin.com

They are probably SOL


Wrong about what? Mullins and Grooms buying the schools?

Do you think that those two guys just said "Yeah, out of the goodness of our hearts we'll let the nine schools be associated with us and we don't care if it pises off The' or generates a bigass law suit against us from the Soards." :D

[tattooedmonk]

Wrong about what? Mullins and Grooms buying the schools?

Do you think that those two guys just said "Yeah, out of the goodness of our hearts we'll let the nine schools be associated with us and we don't care if it pises off The' or generates a bigass law suit against us from the Soards." :DIf you read the letter written by Jacob to his students ,it says that SMG and EMM do not own our schools.....but are supporters ...and not in a financial way either.......From what I understand their school is doing quite well.:D

Maybe :eek:;)

So , you think the Soard's would sue ?? Dont you think that would put the nails in the coffin for them? Why would they do that??:)

[starr]

Its obviously someone who has an ax to grind and wants to see what they can stir up . Accusing good people of blackmail is a serious charge....not failing to mention all the holes in that line of thought.:rolleyes:

I hate to go off topic, but since the tatooedmonk brought it up, let's put some questions to the forum. You guys are pretty good at figuring this stuff out.

Why is tattooedmonk so interested in this break away?:eek:
Why is he contacting Jacob/Laura, the new CSC in Phoenix, Gary Grooms, etc.?:eek:
Why does he say that Jacob/Laura are 'good people' when he's never met them?:eek:
What does HE get out of all this should Jacob/Laura succeed in blackmailing the GM?:eek:

If tattooedmonk wants to make people's motives an issue in this mess, I'm game to add that to the discussion. But be careful about opening a can of worms!

[tattooedmonk]

I hate to go off topic, but since the tatooedmonk brought it up, let's put some questions to the forum. You guys are pretty good at figuring this stuff out.

Why is tattooedmonk so interested in this break away?:eek:
Why is he contacting Jacob/Laura, the new CSC in Phoenix, Gary Grooms, etc.?:eek:
Why does he say that Jacob/Laura are 'good people' when he's never met them?:eek:
What does HE get out of all this should Jacob/Laura succeed in blackmailing the GM?:eek:

If tattooedmonk wants to make people's motives an issue in this mess, I'm game to add that to the discussion. But be careful about opening a can of worms! Well , obviously you want to make this personal, but I am not going there.

You have shown what your about, just goes to show that you are exactly what I know you are .

If you werent you would contact me personally . Its easy to talk $H!t from behind a keyboard but if you knew anything about me you would know that is not very smart.:eek::D

Back to the subject at hand......

I am interested to see what happens just like anyone else....

I wanted to congratulate them on sticking up for what they believe in and what is right, I wanted to hear first hand what was going on...nothing more

From what I know of them I say they are good people.

Jacob and Laura are not blackmailing GMT

I have nothing to gain.....

sorry...

[starr]

If you read the letter written by Jacob to his students ,it says that SMG and EMM do not own our schools.....but are supporters ...and not in a financial way either.......From what I understand their school is doing quite well.:D

Maybe :eek:;)

So , you think the Soard's would sue ?? Dont you think that would put the nails in the coffin for them? Why would they do that??:)

Oh, man! I'm losing respect for you, tat.:( I hope you're not referring to Jacob/Laura's school??

Now I'm positive you've never met Jacob/Laura. Nor have you ever set foot in their school. These guys have been in a financial mess for over a year now and Laura has had to take a job to make ends meet. So if you call raffling off their Shaolin weapons on eBay for 1/2 of what they paid for them 'doing quite well", then you're not too shrewd a businessman.:D These two are in debt to their ears and have been planning a breakaway for some time for financial gain.

But that's another topic for another time. Let's not get too off base here.

Now let's talk about that letter and SMGG and EMGM.

If you think that SM Grooms and EM Mullins are going to let these rogues just exist under them in name only without some sort of compensation, you don't know them. A Senior Master and Elder Master go out on a limb for these guys and they don't get anything out of it? These 9 schools are now in debt to EM Mullins and EM Grooms and they better get ready to pay up at some point in the future.

BD has it right that they're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.:D

Now let's not get into the politics, but they're no friends of the Soards.

If you could pick up 9 schools to add to your list all in one scoop, wouldn't you jump on that? But nothing in life is free.:eek:

[BoulderDawg]

Several Things:

Would the Soards sue? That's a big "You bet". I don't know all the contractual obligations the out of state instructors had to agree to to get their own school but I know there were a few. My guess that would include a non-compete clause. As I said I can't imagine Mullins and Grooms just diving into that's hornets nest unilaterally.

Finally I think I have this starr guy pegged:

I don't think he's ever been anywhere near a SD school or met any of the people involved. None of the information that he has posted here is new. All of it has been posted on this board at one time or the other or easily available other places.

[tattooedmonk]

Several Things:

Would the Soards sue? That's a big "You bet". I don't know all the contractual obligations the out of state instructors had to agree to to get their own school but I know there were a few. My guess that would include a non-compete clause. As I said I can't imagine Mullins and Grooms just diving into that's hornets nest unilaterally.

Finally I think I have this starr guy pegged:

I don't think he's ever been anywhere near a SD school or met any of the people involved. None of the information that he has posted here is new. All of it has been posted on this board at one time or the other or easily available other places.They might file a case, I doubt they would win , that would be the end of their relations with GMT, among other things....:D As for Starr,:eek::D he is just a troll , nothing more

BTW ,, Jacob and Laura won the lawsuit to keep the name so the "Authorized" Soard School had to change it's name... I believe the same holds true for all the school who broke away

[tattooedmonk]

Oh, man! I'm losing respect for you, tat.:( I hope you're not referring to Jacob/Laura's school??

Now I'm positive you've never met Jacob/Laura. Nor have you ever set foot in their school. These guys have been in a financial mess for over a year now and Laura has had to take a job to make ends meet. So if you call raffling off their Shaolin weapons on eBay for 1/2 of what they paid for them 'doing quite well", then you're not too shrewd a businessman.:D These two are in debt to their ears and have been planning a breakaway for some time for financial gain.

But that's another topic for another time. Let's not get too off base here.

Now let's talk about that letter and SMGG and EMGM.

If you think that SM Grooms and EM Mullins are going to let these rogues just exist under them in name only without some sort of compensation, you don't know them. A Senior Master and Elder Master go out on a limb for these guys and they don't get anything out of it? These 9 schools are now in debt to EM Mullins and EM Grooms and they better get ready to pay up at some point in the future.

BD has it right that they're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.:D

Now let's not get into the politics, but they're no friends of the Soards.

If you could pick up 9 schools to add to your list all in one scoop, wouldn't you jump on that? But nothing in life is free.:eek:Funny , you havent shown me any . Its hard for me to believe you have any respect for anyone , including yourself.

Keep it up , this is all good for a laugh or three:D

[tattooedmonk]

This is getting funnier by the minute.... :eek::D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Several Things:

Would the Soards sue? That's a big "You bet". I don't know all the contractual obligations the out of state instructors had to agree to to get their own school but I know there were a few. My guess that would include a non-compete clause. As I said I can't imagine Mullins and Grooms just diving into that's hornets nest unilaterally.

Finally I think I have this starr guy pegged:

I don't think he's ever been anywhere near a SD school or met any of the people involved. None of the information that he has posted here is new. All of it has been posted on this board at one time or the other or easily available other places.He has been in an SD school ...well sort of, a CSC associated with the Soards..... I would almost bet that it is one of their instructors:eek:;):D

*** DIRECTED AT STARR***


LMAO... I am sure it is someone I know;) Someone for whatever reason doesnt like me , and someone who thinks because they are in with the Soards that their $hit doesnt stink ...well let me tell you what buddy , I can smell your stink all the way from California, your just a couple of states over, not too far:eek::D

I never had anything against you but for whatever reason you have issue with me... are you suffering from an inferiority complex or something , starr??:p

I am sure we can resolve your issue whatever it might be...

[BoulderDawg]

Well, let me just make an observation:

From what I've seen none of these out of town instructors are exactly raking in the dough. I think most have to take a second job just to pay the rent. I would be really surprised if Jake and Laura (Especially since they are two of them sharing the profits) are doing "well" so to speak.

Torts 101

Also, some of the contractual stipulations include non-compete clause and a percentage of testing fees. So maybe not in the traditional sense but these schools were a franchise of the Soard schools. I'm fairly certain they simply could not walk away from the Soards without penality. I'm also fairly certain that Mullins would not simply walk in and take over the schools.

Now as far as the "moral outrage" goes: Truth is everyone in these schools have known about this for over a year. Where was the moral outrage and disassociation then?

As far as The' goes: I have no respect for the man. He should have kicked asss and nipped this in the bud when it first happened . He did not.

[starr]

Several Things:

Would the Soards sue? That's a big "You bet". I don't know all the contractual obligations the out of state instructors had to agree to to get their own school but I know there were a few. My guess that would include a non-compete clause. As I said I can't imagine Mullins and Grooms just diving into that's hornets nest unilaterally.

Finally I think I have this starr guy pegged:

I don't think he's ever been anywhere near a SD school or met any of the people involved. None of the information that he has posted here is new. All of it has been posted on this board at one time or the other or easily available other places.

I know what you're up to, BD!:D You're pushing me to show my hand. Okay, how's this.

Grooms and Mullins figure that if these schools go down due to lawsuits, they (Grooms/Mullins) are no worse off than when they started this.

They're not part of the Soards' lawsuit. Yes, Jacob/Laura have been served... how's that for inside info? I don't think Jacob/Laura have told anyone else!:D Happened in the middle of class... It was actually weeks ago and it was then that the threat to the GM was placed. Last ditch attempt I guess. But what did they have to lose? But instead of telling the Soards to back off, the GM went into hiding. Oh well - you can't have EVERYTHING!

And tattooed monk has proven once again that he doesn't know anything, because that lawsuit has barely begun - Jacob/Laura didn't win any lawsuit?? They told GMT that they wished that the lawsuit would just go away. I think it was a "you drop that lawsuit and we won't sue you or send you to jail." But I don't think it's in the GM's hand to remove the lawsuit.

I'm guessing the only reason EM David Soard plead guilty to a misdemeanor instead of going to trial like in the Springs, was to end that lawsuit against them and volley the serve.

So you're right, it was a definite 'yes'. But you're still one step behind, BD! Please try and do better!;):D

[starr]

He has been in an SD school ...well sort of, a CSC associated with the Soards..... I would almost bet that it is one of their instructors:eek:;):D

*** DIRECTED AT STARR***


LMAO... I am sure it is someone I know;) Someone for whatever reason doesnt like me , and someone who thinks because they are in with the Soards that their $hit doesnt stink ...well let me tell you what buddy , I can smell your stink all the way from California, your just a couple of states over, not too far:eek::D

I never had anything against you but for whatever reason you have issue with me... are you suffering from an inferiority complex or something , starr??:p

I am sure we can resolve your issue whatever it might be...


Man, you're easy to rile up!

Only a couple of states away? I may be closer than you think!;)

I might be an instructor soon, with all the openings probably coming up! Might help with my inferiority complex.:D

I've got not beef with you. You're just not in the know about any of this stuff.:( I told you not to make this personal...

[tattooedmonk]

Well, let me just make an observation:

From what I've seen none of these out of town instructors are exactly raking in the dough. I think most have to take a second job just to pay the rent. I would be really surprised if Jake and Laura (Especially since they are two of them sharing the profits) are doing "well" so to speak.

Torts 101

Also, some of the contractual stipulations include non-compete clause and a percentage of testing fees. So maybe not in the traditional sense but these schools were a franchise of the Soard schools. I'm fairly certain they simply could not walk away from the Soards without penality. I'm also fairly certain that Mullins would not simply walk in and take over the schools.

Now as far as the "moral outrage" goes: Truth is everyone in these schools have known about this for over a year. Where was the moral outrage and disassociation then?

As far as The' goes: I have no respect for the man. He should have kicked asss and nipped this in the bud when it first happened . He did not.They didnt sign the contract , remember all instructors are recertified every year.If anyone is competing it is the" new " school. This was all a business arrangement but not at all like starr says , but he is only going by what the Soards have told him.

I admire your loyalty though, starr.

[starr]

Well, let me just make an observation:

From what I've seen none of these out of town instructors are exactly raking in the dough. I think most have to take a second job just to pay the rent. I would be really surprised if Jake and Laura (Especially since they are two of them sharing the profits) are doing "well" so to speak.

Torts 101

Also, some of the contractual stipulations include non-compete clause and a percentage of testing fees. So maybe not in the traditional sense but these schools were a franchise of the Soard schools. I'm fairly certain they simply could not walk away from the Soards without penality. I'm also fairly certain that Mullins would not simply walk in and take over the schools.

Now as far as the "moral outrage" goes: Truth is everyone in these schools have known about this for over a year. Where was the moral outrage and disassociation then?

As far as The' goes: I have no respect for the man. He should have kicked asss and nipped this in the bud when it first happened . He did not.

Okay, I'm impressed with those observations. It's possible that you're just guessing all over the place and you got lucky right now. But I am impressed!

[tattooedmonk]

Man, you're easy to rile up!

Only a couple of states away? I may be closer than you think!;)

I might be an instructor soon, with all the openings probably coming up! Might help with my inferiority complex.:D

I've got not beef with you. You're just not in the know about any of this stuff.:( I told you not to make this personal...BS , you have been calling me out since you have posted here.

Your making it personal not me.

I know who you are and I have a few ideas why you are doing it . If you are close ,you are more than welcome to contact me so we can talk in person.

If your not then you should take a shower :D

I know you are just doing damage control and try to discredit me and anyone else who KNOWS differently than you do.

I dont know which Soard is holding your leash ,but they can feel free to let you loose in my direction :eek::D

I know that after one of your visits to LA you ratted me out because I drank some alcohol in front of you and smoked some weed in the other room .:D:eek:

[starr]

They didnt sign the contract , remember all instructors are recertified every year.If anyone is competing it is the" new " school. This was all a business arrangement but not at all like starr says , but he is only going by what the Soards have told him.

I admire your loyalty though, starr.

So interesting that you've been in so much contact with Jacob/Laura... and we're to believe that you have no interests here?

I don't buy it.

And remind me again why you feel so attacked?

D@mn suspicious.

And I've noticed that when someone is guilty of something, they start making a lot of accusations. And to make it sound like I'm with the Soards... makes me wonder. Bunch me in with the accused, huh? Nice tactic. But won't hold up.

Now, you on the other hand have made it pretty clear that you're in with Jacob/Laura. Birds of a Feather Flock Together is the old saying!:D

[tattooedmonk]

So interesting that you've been in so much contact with Jacob/Laura... and we're to believe that you have no interests here?

I don't buy it.

And remind me again why you feel so attacked?

D@mn suspicious.

And I've noticed that when someone is guilty of something, they start making a lot of accusations. And to make it sound like I'm with the Soards... makes me wonder. Bunch me in with the accused, huh? Nice tactic. But won't hold up.

Now, you on the other hand have made it pretty clear that you're in with Jacob/Laura. Birds of a Feather Flock Together is the old saying!:DWhat are you talking about???
So much contact??
a phone call. Yeah, thats a lot:rolleyes:
You started calling me out right from your first post ..but whatever
HUH ?? I was going to say the same about you ....:D
I know you are with the Soards:eek::)

[starr]

BS , you have been calling me out since you have posted here.

Your making it personal not me.

I know who you are and I have a few ideas why you are doing it . If you are close ,you are more than welcome to contact me so we can talk in person.

If your not then you should take a shower :D

I know you are just doing damage control and try to discredit me and anyone else who KNOWS differently than you do.

I dont know which Soard is holding your leash ,but they can feel free to let you loose in my direction :eek::D

I know that after one of your visits to LA you ratted me out because I drank some alcohol in front of you and smoked some weed in the other room .:D:eek:

Once again, way off base. To be honest, I've never met you. You were much more accurate before you got riled up.:D

[BoulderDawg]

Well, if TM is correct and you are a Soard minion then I'm pretty sure that you could only be one of four people.

One is in LA, one in Alberqueque and the final two in Boulder. My personal opinion is one of these guys is not really a bad guy but he's so dedicated to the Soards that no one in the school likes him, another guy is plain weird and worships the ground the Soards walk on, another guy I simply don't know at all and the final guy is a MFer that I would just as soon tear his f'ing head off as look at him. However I'm not going to tell you which is which.:D

In any case I've always tried to be fair to both sides. The problem with the Soards is that they have never really attempted to explain their actions to anyone. This makes it hard to see their side of the story.

[tattooedmonk]

Once again, way off base. To be honest, I've never met you. You were much more accurate before you got riled up.:DYeah , sure . whatever you say....then why was the first thing that you brought up was my name?? why are you trying to front me off?? I am not riled up , but I curious as to why you would attempt to attack me in the way you have .....for the lack of a better term.

What I have no right to defend myself or say anything in response to your accusations ...whatever:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Well, if TM is correct and you are a Soard minion then I'm pretty sure that you could only be one of four people.

One is in LA, one in Alberqueque and the final two in Boulder. My personal opinion is one of these guys is not really a bad guy but he's so dedicated to the Soards that no one in the school likes him, another guy is plain weird and worships the ground the Soards walk on, another guy I simply don't know at all and the final guy is a MFer that I would just as soon tear his f'ing head off as look at him. However I'm not going to tell you which is which.:D

In any case I've always tried to be fair to both sides. The problem with the Soards is that they have never really attempted to explain their actions to anyone. This makes it hard to see their side of the story.LMAO I could guess which ones are which.:eek::D

[starr]

Well, if TM is correct and you are a Soard minion then I'm pretty sure that you could only be one of four people.

One is in LA, one in Alberqueque and the final two in Boulder. My personal opinion is one of these guys is not really a bad guy but he's so dedicated to the Soards that no one in the school likes him, another guy is plain weird and worships the ground the Soards walk on, another guy I simply don't know at all and the final guy is a MFer that I would just as soon tear his f'ing head off as look at him. However I'm not going to tell you which is which.:D

A mystery for the rest of us to solve!:D

But unfortunately, TM is a little crazy at the moment and I'm finding his thoughts a bit muddy.:confused:

[tattooedmonk]

HAHAH , yeah whatever :eek::D:rolleyes::cool:

[starr]

In any case I've always tried to be fair to both sides. The problem with the Soards is that they have never really attempted to explain their actions to anyone. This makes it hard to see their side of the story.

Again some good points. Why haven't they said anything? Even at this point? Taking the high ground? Gag order? With the other side running rampant, it is baffling. But I don't see any of the Masters, (Elder, Senior, Grand) actually saying anything publicly about this entire issue (save the letter from the GM to Jacob/Laura).

But the quietness from the Soards I have no information on. And no one wants my opinion!:p

[tattooedmonk]

The tattooedmonk can mark my words. He knows I'm wright.:eek:

I've got the in with Grooms, The', and Jacob/Laura, and people close to the Soards.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm giving the news as I know it. Heard those words myself.

Think about it. What the hell happened in a few short days that GMT throws a 180? You guys aren't that stupid. It doesn't take a freakin Sherlock Holmes to figure this mystery out. I'm surprised no one already knew.

Oh, and by the way, I've been following this post and you guys have really hit on some accurate speculations, but in other parts you are so way off!:D

Right tattooedmonk?

I've got the scoop. If you don't want it, I'm out.so, what is this then??:rolleyes::eek:

[BoulderDawg]

last comment for the night,

Starr I still don't hear anything that tells me you have any inside information and I don't know why it would be so revealing just to tell us your home school.

Also, I doubt you're a Soard minion. If you were there's one person that you would be more highly pised at then Jake and Laura but you have not mentioned him at all....probably don't even know who I'm talking about!:D

Anyway, I would still love to hear what Jake and Laura were going to use to send The' to jail.

[tattooedmonk]

He's one of theirs .. you can tell just by the position he has taken and the things he has said......or not said;):p:eek::D

[tattooedmonk]

last comment for the night,

Starr I still don't hear anything that tells me you have any inside information and I don't know why it would be so revealing just to tell us your home school.

Also, I doubt you're a Soard minion. If you were there's one person that you would be more highly pised at then Jake and Laura but you have not mentioned him at all....probably don't even know who I'm talking about!:D

Anyway, I would still love to hear what Jake and Laura were going to use to send The' to jail.He cant say anything more because he would most surely give himself away.....:eek::D

[Judge Pen]

JP: Your PM quota is full.

Fixed (and I've sent my private e-mail to you as well).

[Judge Pen]

Oh, man! I'm losing respect for you, tat.:( I hope you're not referring to Jacob/Laura's school??

Now I'm positive you've never met Jacob/Laura. Nor have you ever set foot in their school. These guys have been in a financial mess for over a year now and Laura has had to take a job to make ends meet. So if you call raffling off their Shaolin weapons on eBay for 1/2 of what they paid for them 'doing quite well", then you're not too shrewd a businessman.:D These two are in debt to their ears and have been planning a breakaway for some time for financial gain.

But that's another topic for another time. Let's not get too off base here.

Now let's talk about that letter and SMGG and EMGM.

If you think that SM Grooms and EM Mullins are going to let these rogues just exist under them in name only without some sort of compensation, you don't know them. A Senior Master and Elder Master go out on a limb for these guys and they don't get anything out of it? These 9 schools are now in debt to EM Mullins and EM Grooms and they better get ready to pay up at some point in the future.

BD has it right that they're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.:D

Now let's not get into the politics, but they're no friends of the Soards.

If you could pick up 9 schools to add to your list all in one scoop, wouldn't you jump on that? But nothing in life is free.:eek:


I know Master Garry Mullins. He and his sons were my personal teachers for 9 years. I am one of his higher ranking students. That said, I'm not in his inner circle nor do I have any inside information on these going-ons. But there seems to be a misconception about compensation. So let me speak from what I know.....

In Tennessee, Master Garry does not own any schools affiliated with him. If you are under his supervision, you have to do things his way and support seminars etc that he, his sons or Master The puts on, but that is it. He does not have a percentage of schools. Neither does Master The'. He gets paid the testing fees from the schools. I don't know if he and Master Garry split testing fees or not, I've never asked and its really not my concern. Master Garry makes his money from his individual schools and for seminars that he puts on. There may be situations where he has loaned money to help people open a school etc and is being paid back, but that's not a franchise arrangement.

Now I personally believe (and this is pure speculation on my part) that Master The changed his mind for two very specific reasons--it was the right thing to do and it was the financially smart thing to do. They can continue to teach under the supervision of two of his top senior students (who each are a bit of a rouge in they system anyway), he has not alienated a large number of loyal students and he maintains an income stream since these students will continue to test and support seminars he puts on.

I personally believe (and this is pure speculation on my part) that Master Garry Mullins and Gary Grooms would agree to this for two very important reasons. It is the right thing to do and it provides them with more income and prestige in the system. Their student base is larger and they have a new market to provide seminars for. That is money. Plus neither of them were happy with control from Lexington and have gone out of their way to distinguish themselves from Master Leonard. This is a very sore spot in SD but, all opinions aside, they have separated themselves from Lexington with the blessing of Master The. This move would further solidify their importance and independence in the system.

For these reasons it makes perfect sense to me. I don't know whose idea it was first, but it seems to me a win-win situation for everyone involved.

(Aside from compensation for schools under Master Garry) That's my pure speculation on all of this. Now I've got to get back to work.

[tattooedmonk]

I couldnt have said it better myself......:D

[kwaichang]

Well this is all interesting. I am a upper ranked SD practitioner and have wanted to open a school in Tennessee for about 4 years but Master Mullins has nixed this . So does this mean i cant open a school anywhere in the us now except Texas or maybe Kentucky ?? Or will i end up being kicked out of Sd if i do because I have hurt someones feelings. What ever happened to training to learn and enjoy the art of MA. This whole thing sickens me the politics of it all. KC

[tattooedmonk]

Well this is all interesting. I am a upper ranked SD practitioner and have wanted to open a school in Tennessee for about 4 years but Master Mullins has nixed this . So does this mean i cant open a school anywhere in the us now except Texas or maybe Kentucky ?? Or will i end up being kicked out of Sd if i do because I have hurt someones feelings. What ever happened to training to learn and enjoy the art of MA. This whole thing sickens me the politics of it all. KC Hey KC , How you doin??Do you know why?? NO , it doesnt.

[BoulderDawg]

I would like to hear from someone who actually owned one of these Out of state Soard schools. But no drama, just tell us exactly what the terms of the agreement was.

Anyway, aside from the scandal that has recently came up, the Soards have never been known for their bedside manner. I understand over the years they have burned hundreds of bridges including the vast majority of those in Kentucky.:D

[tattooedmonk]

I would like to hear from someone who actually owned one of these Out of state Soard schools. But no drama, just tell us exactly what the terms of the agreement was.

Anyway, aside from the scandal that has recently came up, the Soards have never been known for their bedside manner. I understand over the years they have burned hundreds of bridges including the vast majority of those in Kentucky.:DCall one or any of them . They might tell you they might not.....there are people around that have the real poop on this subject you just have to know who to ask.....;):eek::cool:

[BoulderDawg]

Call one or any of them . They might tell you they might not.....there are people around that have the real poop on this subject you just have to know who to ask.....;):eek::cool:

Not that interested. Cold calling is not my style anyway. And, I can't imagine that, given the publicity and all, anyone would tell you anything. They would probably refer you back to the Soards in Boulder.

I do know there was a guy, Jason Carr, in LA who had a falling out with the Soards. Haven't heard the complete story of that but it's my understanding that he wanted to develop a kid's program. Of course the Soards would never have a kids program.

[tattooedmonk]

Not that interested. Cold calling is not my style anyway. And, I can't imagine that, given the publicity and all, anyone would tell you anything. They would probably refer you back to the Soards in Boulder.

I do know there was a guy, Jason Carr, in LA who had a falling out with the Soards. Haven't heard the complete story of that but it's my understanding that he wanted to develop a kid's program. Of course the Soards would never have a kids program. Cool, I understand. Actually I was told a great deal when I asked ......

JC had a falling out for multiple reasons, One was he abused is power. When he came in he wanted everyone to bow down to him. Anyone that didnt, especially black belts , were kicked out.

Its funny because most of us had been doing it for as long as he had.

He hardly ever showed up because he was working on his actng career:rolleyes: He threw up in the first outdoor conditioning class , then proceeded to say that he would do it on his own time.

He never fullfilled his requirements yet was allowed to become a AM. Give me break. He kept using the excuse that needed to get back to the school to start brown belt class. All he wanted was to be the so called master of a successful school .

The list goes on and on.

He wouldnt let one of the old black belts test for third after he had already pretested and bought his plane ticket and everything...guess what the Soards did ?? Backed JC decision..WTF??

He was a tool.

He couldnt build up the school in SJ so he quit , he couldnt handle it.

He could nt handle that the CSC Northridge had a tight nit group that stood by each other so he broke it a part and pit different groups against each other. If you wanted to stay you had to kiss his @$$.

He told a female student when she was worked up that she needed to get laid....WTF?

As for the kids class. I originally assisted in the kids class when we were in Chatsworth and then became the co-instructor for the kids class when we moved to Northridge.

We had it for about 2 years until me and DY wanted to make it official. So, we went to GMT to find out how things were set up in the east with the kids class. we got all the info , GMT's approval and of course the Soards said no ...

GMT said he could only do so much because they were their( Soards ) schools.
Which I understand , but why wouldnt anyone want to have a kids class .

In most martial arts schools, kids make up better than 75% of the money that comes in......who doesnt want to make money when they open up a business?:rolleyes::eek::D

[BoulderDawg]

I never knew Jason. I casually asked several of the senior black belts what happened and they were farily closed mouth about it. I was told that when he left about half the students left with him. Once again pis poor management by Soards/The' to allow the school to get to that point.

I never understood the kids program thing either. However it's pretty obvious that Sharon hates kids with a passion. While I was there they tolerated a few kids in the adult classes but that was about it.

To be honest, there are a hundred things I would have done differently. For one thing there was no quality control and testing got out of hand. It degenerated so much that lower belts weren't truly learning the material before being passed to the next level. I guess that's still going on.

[ittokaos]

C'mon guys let's see if this useless thread can actually make all the way to 1000.

[tattooedmonk]

I never knew Jason. I casually asked several of the senior black belts what happened and they were farily closed mouth about it. I was told that when he left about half the students left with him. Once again pis poor management by Soards/The' to allow the school to get to that point.

I never understood the kids program thing either. However it's pretty obvious that Sharon hates kids with a passion. While I was there they tolerated a few kids in the adult classes but that was about it.

To be honest, there are a hundred things I would have done differently. For one thing there was no quality control and testing got out of hand. It degenerated so much that lower belts weren't truly learning the material before being passed to the next level. I guess that's still going on.You're better off :eek:;):D

I think in a lot of ways GMT is so far removed and doesnt have much / say much when it come to the lower belt testing and the individual business aspects of the schools, etc.


Dude, I have hundreds of ideas myself. I am implementing some of them into my program too!!:eek::D

Funny thing is that they got at least part of the business model from a friend/ student / investor in the CSCs. He was a guy who owned comedy club or something like that .

How is a comedy club like a martial arts school....?? Oh wait , there is no difference in the CSCs run by the Soards.

LMAO

This is the guy who had all the assistant instructors start paying to be there in addition to paying for their advanced material. :eek::rolleyes:

They charged for everything. All seminars all the specialty classes and for advanced material . Shouldnt that be part of your monthly dues??? Why should anyone pay monthly dues and then an additional fee for their advanced material.

I thought that was what the monthly dues were for...... Arent they???

I wonder if any of these sheep ever wondered why every few years there was a drastic loss in enrollment, student retention as well as a new instructor(s).

Shouldnt there have been some warning signs or flags that normally would come up in these types of situations???

Whats more is that every student that stuck by the Soards always thought that it was on those particular teachers or students.....now a few people have wised up......

They now know it is the Soards

Sorry, my Kar-ma ran over your Dog-ma....LMAO

[tattooedmonk]

C'mon guys let's see if this useless thread can actually make all the way to 1000.We will make it before the end of the year.....:eek::D:cool:

[Facepalm]

Im happy that I got out when I did.

I got to pat myself on the back for a nice accomplishment there getting my BB and all. but really now I look at my time there as a good beginning to my MA education.

I wish I could have gone to one of the east coast schools. Actually the most intriguing model ive heard was from TTM who said he makes students learn all the forms forward and backward, actually does bag work, and teaches students forms at a realistic pace while making sure they understand the usefulness and limitations of the material.

The reason the Soards have it wrong is because they think, and are right in some cases, that people just want to learn alot of forms and have fantasies about how now they are capable of doing the things they see in movies.

While I was there I really tried to keep a realistic attitude about the art. I knew the lineage was mostly drummed up, I knew that the methods of teaching didnt really produce good fighters. I cringed whenever EMD would mention the 1500 year old system and how we all were going to live forever for studying it. But I could see I was benefiting from it as far as my own martial abilities and being able to move and think in new ways.

Also I think BD mentioned it before. The price to go there is significantly less than practically any other place to train in Boulder. $35 a month minumum. I think I was spending about an average of $80-$100 total with monthly fees and festival attendance and equipment purchase. That is nothing compared to what alot of places are charging.

Well, I do hope we get to 1000 pages, this forum is a blast.

KK

Gotta go Muay Thai

[One student]

Here's what smells bad to me about the worst of the rumors being spread:

1. People criticize GMT for not having enough control over CSC/DS and SS schools, and now want to say his involvement is "criminal"?

2. The quote I think was, "victim intimidation." In almost every state there is a law against some form of retaliation or intimidation of a "witness" in a criminal prosecution, but (JP, correct me if I am wrong) almost all require two things: 1) the act of intimidation must be unlawful by itself; and 2) there must not be a legal privilege to do it. For example: I am landlord. Tenant testifies against my brother. Tenant is behind on rent, so I can't threaten to evict him/her? Yes I can, because it is lawful for me to give eviction notice, and I have a right to do it. Being a witness in a criminal case is not a license to get away with something bad as well.

3. So that means unllikely any "crime" could be credibly threatened. GMT apparently (it seems to me) had a lawyer write the letters, or help, and could just as easily told him any "threat" of jail was bogus. So bogus, I doubt it was ever made. What kind of person would you have to be, to tell your only GM, "do X or I'll have you arrested?"

4. So, that leaves, break up of 9 from S's, so no longer, immediately, affiliated with any GMT school. If he doesn't stop it, his copyrights and intellectual property are "diluted" or he can be considered to have waived the right to stop it. He has to do something, immediately, to stop that appearance.

5. But, his beef is not with them, directly. So the door is open to make up. After all, as we know from those who have reviewed the actual patent or copyright application, only certain aspects can be protected. If McDonalds pulls a license/franchise, they can still sell hamburgers -- just not the same one in the same way with the same packaging. It can be got around.

6. That kind of fight not good for anyone. The 9 have to rearrange a large part of what they have been doing, can't claim any lineage or connection to anyone "higher up," and also GMT loses 9 schools.

7. Solution? Can you guys find another Master level to associate with? Who is closest to what you've been doing (substantively, and geographically)? Lets talk to them, see what they say. They say, sure, no skin off our back, we're okay to help, and increase our sphere at the same time. I don't know GG, haven't had any thing to do with GM for 20+ years. I can't believe, with both still happily associated with GMT (as far as I know) they would publicly take on 9 schools just excommunicated by GMT, without GMT's okay. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I hope not, because when I came up, "rogue" and "renegade" were four letter words. I took some judo classes after getting 1st blk, told my teacher, AFTER the fact, was told next time to discuss it first, so it doesn't look bad. This, if without sanctioning by GMT, looks REALLY bad.

8. Flaw? Why BOTH GM and GG? Why not just one of them? Only thing I can think of, is sharing the weight, and the responsibility, and if financial help were needed, spread that out too.

I know NOTHING inside. Have NO direct contact with any of the players, at least not regarding any of this. I wish GMT would get a press secretary. I attended more than one "press conference" with him in the day in Lexington, to get it from his mouth. Until he does, this is my story, and I'm sticking with it, until something better comes along. Someone tell me what's wrong with this scenario -- with facts, not "believe me, I know what I'm talking about, you'll just have to trust me."

That's just my opinion, I could be (very) wrong. Only food for thought.

[kwaichang]

I am sick of all this stuff. The point is now a renegade EMMullins has more area and control and he shouldnt have. Actually no {one} should. The fact that I for one cant train with the schools in Tennessee says that the open arms of MA brothers arent that open. So why didnt KY schools absorb them??? Well because they were associated with the Soards . That is why. I for one think the EM soard losing the schools is a good thing i think the EM should teach over an area but not have the right to say who trains with who and if you can open a school or not. this is not the case though. They are trying to control everything we do and say. KC

[BoulderDawg]

Hmmmmm.........

I think most of the business problems happeing now can be laid directly at the feet of The'. The man has never shown himself to be a great business man.

In any case why should a school be aligned with anyone other than GM The'? Why do they need to be groups of schools under this or that elder/senior master?

They are six elder masters. As an owner of a school why couldn't I call up any of these guys and say, "How about doing a festival at my school."?

I think all of this in fighting can only be bad for everyone.

[Judge Pen]

They are six elder masters. As an owner of a school why couldn't I call up any of these guys and say, "How about doing a festival at my school."?

I think all of this in fighting can only be bad for everyone.

I agree. But, like most things in life, human ego and territorial notions overcome other notions of fairness. I don't know who started this idea of Masters in charge of certain territories. I'm sure it started in Kentucky when just about every small Kentucky town had a SD teacher. My first teacher drove 45 miles into Virginia because he couldn't teach in Kentucky (because all the other little towns had teachers already established there).

Now it has become a national phenomenon. You can't go into a territory associated with a Master and teach your own way there. I couldn't go to Texas, Kentucky or Colorado and teach without first obtaining permission of Master Schaffer, Leonard or Soard (or seeking a The' intervention) first. Maybe they would or would not have a problem with that. Maybe it would depend on if I still sought instruction from Master Mullins or is I agreed to only seeking instruction for them. Now the ego of having a teacher, who is a student of a "rival" Master teaching in an area that you are supposed to be in "charge" of. It's difficult to keep track of all this.

It's also interesting to visit the SDA (shaolin-do Association)'s website which doesn't even acknowledge certain Masters. They sometimes acknowledge "non-affiliated" schools, but they don't acknowledge all of them.

Human ego can be a terrible thing, no doubt.

[BoulderDawg]

While I was there I really tried to keep a realistic attitude about the art. I knew the lineage was mostly drummed up, I knew that the methods of teaching didnt really produce good fighters. I cringed whenever EMD would mention the 1500 year old system and how we all were going to live forever for studying it. But I could see I was benefiting from it as far as my own martial abilities and being able to move and think in new ways.

Also I think BD mentioned it before. The price to go there is significantly less than practically any other place to train in Boulder. $35 a month minumum. I think I was spending about an average of $80-$100 total with monthly fees and festival attendance and equipment purchase. That is nothing compared to what alot of places are charging.

Yes, once when David started one of his long winded speeches I was sitting on the floor and my foot fell asleep. I didn't know if I was going to be able to get up. I also chuckle at the "Take Kung Fu and live to be 96 like GM Ie." To start with that was BS in and of itself (Ie died eight years before the Soards said he did) and just any consistant exercise can only benefit a longer life.

I did like the pricing. You did not have to take the festivals or buy the weapons so $35 a month is not bad for structured workouts and a wee bit of sparring.

[BoulderDawg]

I agree. But, like most things in life, human ego and territorial notions overcome other notions of fairness. I don't know who started this idea of Masters in charge of certain territories. I'm sure it started in Kentucky when just about every small Kentucky town had a SD teacher. My first teacher drove 45 miles into Virginia because he couldn't teach in Kentucky (because all the other little towns had teachers already established there).

Now it has become a national phenomenon. You can't go into a territory associated with a Master and teach your own way there. I couldn't go to Texas, Kentucky or Colorado and teach without first obtaining permission of Master Schaffer, Leonard or Soard (or seeking a The' intervention) first. Maybe they would or would not have a problem with that. Maybe it would depend on if I still sought instruction from Master Mullins or is I agreed to only seeking instruction for them. Now the ego of having a teacher, who is a student of a "rival" Master teaching in an area that you are supposed to be in "charge" of. It's difficult to keep track of all this.

It's also interesting to visit the SDA (shaolin-do Association)'s website which doesn't even acknowledge certain Masters. They sometimes acknowledge "non-affiliated" schools, but they don't acknowledge all of them.

Human ego can be a terrible thing, no doubt.

It's funny about The'. Even before I knew about the Soard scandal I had met The' on a number of occasions and just never really warmed up to the man. Now after seeing him handle all this stuff with the Soards I feel even less respect for him.

Even if today there was another reversal and the Soards were totally kicked out of the art I don't believe I could never again be a member of a The' school.

[tattooedmonk]

GMT is a good man, he is human just like anyone else. He has made mistakes and for many reasons sometimes it is difficult for him to get involved in many issues that arise in the business that he started.

I am sure if you knew him a little better, you hadnt heard all the negative stuff that you have, etc you would like him. It is very hard for him when a lot of people around for him to have a more personal or intimate conversation with them.

I agree that the system/ business is in shambles, but I know and believe that this is the reason why he has agreed and allowed the SMGG and EMGM to take over these schools .

Do you know anything about their programs and associated schools??

They are very good business men and know what they are doing.....or so I understand. I have researched this stuff and know this for sure, based on the facts and resources that are available.

One last thing, you have to rememeber and keep in mind, is that GMT is from a foreign country and did not grow up here . Things are WAY different in Indonesia. You also have to keep in mind where he grew up and where he was transplanted to and has grown up from and with whom he has associated. He brain and mentality are different than Americans... he has ended up fostering many of our ways ...some good and some not so good....But he does learn fromhis mistakes very well

I believe he looks for the best in people, he wants to believe that everyone he trusts is looking out for his best interest ... now we now this is not the case.

These are not excuses but facts ... they all play a roll and are a factor in this equation......

Dont give up on SD or your fellow brethren. Most of us dont know each other but still feel a certain kindred spirit for one another .....

My door is always open if you make it out to LA area....

[BoulderDawg]

To start with you have to remember that all I heard about The' before I ever met him came from the Soards. They built him up like some sort of God. However I'm not that stupid and, knowing a few celebrities and how they are in private life, I knew the difference between the man and his PR is likely to be huge. I took that into account.

I guess my problem was I just never saw the passion I felt he should have for the art. On my first trip to LA I just casually asked one of the guys, knowing that The's lived just 10 miles away, "Just how often does Grandmaster make it up for regular class?" The answer was that he'd never been in regular class. Maybe it's just me but I believe that if the man truly had a passion for the art he would have been in that school every chance he got. Also, I saw a man who during festivals would arrive two hours late and take a two hour lunch break making the festival 2-3 hours longer. Absolutely no regard for any schedule his students might have. Then when he was teaching what I saw was a man bored to death just going through the motions.

These are just my observations. I'm sure others have a different take on it.

[goju]

lol theres allways an excuse for sd even when theyve dug themselves into a hole so big they aint getting out

[tattooedmonk]

To start with you have to remember that all I heard about The' before I ever met him came from the Soards. They built him up like some sort of God. However I'm not that stupid and, knowing a few celebrities and how they are in private life, I knew the difference between the man and his PR is likely to be huge. I took that into account.

I guess my problem was I just never saw the passion I felt he should have for the art. On my first trip to LA I just casually asked one of the guys, knowing that The's lived just 10 miles away, "Just how often does Grandmaster make it up for regular class?" The answer was that he'd never been in regular class. Maybe it's just me but I believe that if the man truly had a passion for the art he would have been in that school every chance he got. Also, I saw a man who during festivals would arrive two hours late and take a two hour lunch break making the festival 2-3 hours longer. Absolutely no regard for any schedule his students might have. Then when he was teaching what I saw was a man bored to death just going through the motions.

These are just my observations. I'm sure others have a different take on it.Do you think that might be the reason why you have so much contempt for the man?? I mean , having buildt someone up to be something more than they are then actually finding out that they are just as human and normal as anyone else can have that effect on people......

As for the time thing, I understand why you feel the way you do, but I dont agree. There could be a variety of different reasons as to why time is usually not an issue (of becomes an issue depending on how you look at it).

I am sure that most of it comes from the thought that most people do not plan anything other than spending the day / weekend with the group and so it is assumed that the actual time in which things are supposed to actually happen really doesnt matter or is not a factor.

I dont think it is because he doesnt care....

Depending on how he feels and what might be going on in his life and the peoples lives around him may or may not affect his personality and state of mind when doing tests or seminars....just like anyone else


Just some thoughts and a different perspective.


one more thing, class times are approximated to insure thorough instruction.:D

[BoulderDawg]

Do you think that might be the reason why you have so much contempt for the man?? I mean , having buildt someone up to be something more than they are then actually finding out that they are just as human and normal as anyone else can have that effect on people......

Apparently you didn't even bother to read the last half of the first paragraph.

[BoulderDawg]

one more thing, class times are approximated to insure thorough instruction.:D

This statement doesn't make any sense. How does starting a festival two hours late insure thorough instruction?

Also, be it grand master or elder master festival I've never heard any instructor say, "You know you guys just aren't getting it. Let's slow it down and take a little more time here."

Usually a form will be broken down into 3 or 4 parts. the grand/elder master will stand up in front of the class and do the particular section three times. After that he will say practice and turn it over to senior students for about 20/30 minutes. During this time the master is usually BSing or gone somewhere. Then they move on to the next section. Usually it's plowing through without regard to who's getting thorough instruction.

Then I think of a form like ground monkey which is offered as a festival. Of all the people that I know who's taken that I only know one person that can actually do the form. Too much material and not enough time. The festival is worthless.

[One student]

I am sick of all this stuff. The point is now a renegade EMMullins has more area and control and he shouldnt have. Actually no {one} should. The fact that I for one cant train with the schools in Tennessee says that the open arms of MA brothers arent that open. So why didnt KY schools absorb them??? Well because they were associated with the Soards . That is why. I for one think the EM soard losing the schools is a good thing i think the EM should teach over an area but not have the right to say who trains with who and if you can open a school or not. this is not the case though. They are trying to control everything we do and say. KC

I don't understand the "I can't train" somewhere. But as far as opening a similar school very close, providing similar instruction in the same basic material, would be the school competing against itself. Both would be competing for the same "customer base," and since there are only so many of those, there would be less students at each, defeating the purpose. Unless you are Starbucks, you can't have the same product being provided right next to itself.

But, not being able to go there to participate? I don't get that -- unless it is a matter of you having to do it their way, in their school, which I guess is their right, isn't it? But another school, teaching the same (nearly) material, right next door (not literally)? Both would die.

[One student]

Hmmmmm.........

I think most of the business problems happeing now can be laid directly at the feet of The'. The man has never shown himself to be a great business man.

In any case why should a school be aligned with anyone other than GM The'? Why do they need to be groups of schools under this or that elder/senior master?

They are six elder masters. As an owner of a school why couldn't I call up any of these guys and say, "How about doing a festival at my school."?

I think all of this in fighting can only be bad for everyone.

Same reason when McDonalds sells a franchise, the buyer requires no more McDonalds' within X miles or whatever (depending on the population). The wider range, the more they pay to get it. No competition for the same product in the same geographic area.

And, why associate with a master, why not GMS himself? Same reason GM doesn't sell its own cars. He can't be everywhere, doing it all. It just got too big. There has to be a hierarchy and delegation of authority, and that equals a chain of command, starting at the bottom but also necessitates some free acting without knowledge/control at the top. Fact of llife.

And, why do you think he left Lexington in the first place? Didn't it have something to do with, "Here, you handle this 'business,' I'll teach when I can, but otherwise take care of it, its yours, I've got other things I want to do, not run a
business. GG is doing it, GM, DS/SS, etc. Why not you?"

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sin The's schools are like a cult, the more the people in it start realizing it's just garbage, the more they can't face it and the more they become "true believers".

Go to a real Chinese Martial Arts school, not a bunch of unrelated stuff that Sin The got from out of a book.

All Shaolin Do routines look bizarre and almost as bad as that other cult Green Dragon.

Bahh, you guys can't face the fact that you learned junk.

Have the guts to go to another Chinese Martial arts school that isn't Sin The related and check it out.

[BoulderDawg]

Same reason when McDonalds sells a franchise, the buyer requires no more McDonalds' within X miles or whatever (depending on the population). The wider range, the more they pay to get it. No competition for the same product in the same geographic area.

And, why associate with a master, why not GMS himself? Same reason GM doesn't sell its own cars. He can't be everywhere, doing it all. It just got too big. There has to be a hierarchy and delegation of authority, and that equals a chain of command, starting at the bottom but also necessitates some free acting without knowledge/control at the top. Fact of llife.

And, why do you think he left Lexington in the first place? Didn't it have something to do with, "Here, you handle this 'business,' I'll teach when I can, but otherwise take care of it, its yours, I've got other things I want to do, not run a
business. GG is doing it, GM, DS/SS, etc. Why not you?"

How does territorial stipulations fit into any comment I was making?

Also, using the car analogy, if my new car breaks down anywhere in the US I can carry it to the nearest dealership and they will recognize the warrenty. A membership at the Soard school does not transfer to a membership at a Leonard school.

Also, because of the size if they want to have regional quality control managers then fine. However each school should be independant.

And, as Judge Pen was talking about, there should be no reason why Master Leonard could not do a festival in Los Angeles or Master Mullins could not do a festival in Kentucky if that particular school wanted them.

[kwaichang]

1st the teacher EMMullins wont let me so there is no controversy , not even though I have trained with him previously. No biggie.

Sal i have trained at Tang Lang , Hung Gar, Chen Tai Chi and Yang Tai Chi one teacher was trained in China for 30 years. And as far as FORM goes there isnt much difference in the execution. Only small differences. Where the differences do lie is in the detail while being taught , Like opening the Kua etc and Bio Mechanics and of course applications but they are personal anyway dependent on Body type and level of understanding.
You always chime in with your derrogatory statements and try to pat yourself on the back about what you do. In an indirect way. Can you say something positive just once. I know you know your stuff but apparently you missed the class on respect and the TAO KC

[BoulderDawg]

Well, if TM is correct and you are a Soard minion then I'm pretty sure that you could only be one of four people.

One is in LA, one in Alberqueque and the final two in Boulder. My personal opinion is one of these guys is not really a bad guy but he's so dedicated to the Soards that no one in the school likes him, another guy is plain weird and worships the ground the Soards walk on, another guy I simply don't know at all and the final guy is a MFer that I would just as soon tear his f'ing head off as look at him. However I'm not going to tell you which is which.:D

In any case I've always tried to be fair to both sides. The problem with the Soards is that they have never really attempted to explain their actions to anyone. This makes it hard to see their side of the story.

Well, once again a little birdie fluttered down and told me all about Starr. I'll just say he IS one of the four. In fact he's the one that I don't know.

However don't think the other three have been spending their entire time just doing Kung Fu. Just today I heard an interesting story about one of the other three.

In any case I'm fairly certain all four have read this and know who they are. It ashame really to know what these guys are capable of and what they have accused certain people of doing.

Well, since we now know who Mr. Starr is I'm wondering if we will see him back here!:D

[Sal Canzonieri]

1st the teacher EMMullins wont let me so there is no controversy , not even though I have trained with him previously. No biggie.

Sal i have trained at Tang Lang , Hung Gar, Chen Tai Chi and Yang Tai Chi one teacher was trained in China for 30 years. And as far as FORM goes there isnt much difference in the execution. Only small differences. Where the differences do lie is in the detail while being taught , Like opening the Kua etc and Bio Mechanics and of course applications but they are personal anyway dependent on Body type and level of understanding.
You always chime in with your derrogatory statements and try to pat yourself on the back about what you do. In an indirect way. Can you say something positive just once. I know you know your stuff but apparently you missed the class on respect and the TAO KC

No, I don't have any respect for Sin The and any of his related schools.

[Judge Pen]

No, I don't have any respect for Sin The and any of his related schools.

Sal what do you think of Mas Judt's opinion that what Sin The taught is an indonesian blend of CMA, IMA and JMA?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal what do you think of Mas Judt's opinion that what Sin The taught is an indonesian blend of CMA, IMA and JMA?

Some of it may be that, perhaps.

That's not the problem, the problem is:

1 - in a US court room he had to admit that much of the teaching material was from outside sources (books, videos).

2 - the routines (regardless of what "flavor" they had from IMA and JMA) are not taught or practiced with the proper body mechanics. Maybe it's not Sin The doing that, but the somehow the schools do that, especially if the emphasis is on learning tons of routines so that they can charge more and more money for them.

Just about every person I have seen from a Sin The associated school barely does the core body mechanics properly.

There is a correct and proper way to do core body mechanics, it's all based on how the human body functions and operates; it is not based on "that's a stylistic issue" that I often hear as an excuse.

Improper body mechanics will get you killed or maimed in a self defense situation at worse, laughed at at best.

Something is wrong with their system of plowing through routine after routine like collecting charms on a bracelet. All glitter but nothing of substance.

It's better to do the core mechanics correctly and master them completely and not know any routines.
At least that way one would be a authentic and practical martial artist.

Routines are supposed to be a means to an end, a means for practicing core mechanics with strategy.
Without a solid foundation, routines are just break dancing.

[tattooedmonk]

Some of it may be that, perhaps.

That's not the problem, the problem is:

1 - in a US court room he had to admit that much of the teaching material was from outside sources (books, videos).

Interesting , how did you come about this information?? You say outside sources, specifically books and videos , could or does this mean other teachers as well?? What court / case are you refering to??

[Sal Canzonieri]

Interesting , how did you come about this information?? You say outside sources, specifically books and videos , could or does this mean other teachers as well?? What court / case are you refering to??

A very long time ago, he was sued, in Kentucky, his brother testified against him actually. That's when they split off from each other and his brother went his own way. It came out that he has used books and videos to add more routines to his system. Over 20 years ago, there was articles out about this and when there was only the UseNet message boards and internet forums didn't exist yet, people had posted the transcripts of the case.

In my opinion, that explains why his routines often looked like strings of postures seen in a photograph to me, without the necessary intermediate movements that happen between the postures (which can't be shown in a book, but by a teacher).

[Judge Pen]

A very long time ago, he was sued, in Kentucky, his brother testified against him actually. That's when they split off from each other and his brother went his own way. It came out that he has used books and videos to add more routines to his system. Over 20 years ago, there was articles out about this and when there was only the UseNet message boards and internet forums didn't exist yet, people had posted the transcripts of the case.

In my opinion, that explains why his routines often looked like strings of postures seen in a photograph to me, without the necessary intermediate movements that happen between the postures (which can't be shown in a book, but by a teacher).

Since you have the state the lawsuit was brought in wrong, the rest of your information is highly suspect as well.

But since you're speaking from hearsay, so will I: my understanding is that in a discovery deposition, not trial testimony his brother testified that Sin could not claim ownership of the material because it was taught to him independantly in Indonesia. But if you have a copy of a transcript, then please share.

As far as body mechanics, I will admit that with several teachers, the quality of instruction and detail is lacking. But did you check out the videos of Garry Mullins demonstrating basic body mechanics? Please do and tell me what is lacking (and not from a stylistic point). I have sparred many different people from different styles (most of them from what you would probably consider an authentic lineage) and I've more than held my own, so I do take issue that I would get killed or laughed at in a self-defense scenario.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/stances.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/basiccomponents.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/warmups.mp4

Here are those videos for easy reference.

[BoulderDawg]

The one thing that always struck with me and was the beginning of my mistrust of The' was the story of GM Ie.

One brother says he was their Grandfather. One brother says he just walked up to his school one day.

Ie is suppose to be one of the greatest masters that ever lived yet there are no pictures of the man (yet he lived in modern times) and as far as I know he had no students other than the The' brothers.

Finally there is no reason why the brothers can't agree on when the man died.

Anyway given that Sin The's story has always been this lineage past down from China he would have a hard time claiming ownership in court. The' is trying to have his cake and eat it to!:D

[MasterKiller]

Ie is suppose to be one of the greatest masters that ever lived yet there are no pictures of the man (yet he lived in modern times) and as far as I know he had no students other than the The' brothers.

I have some pictures of him, with another student. ;)

[tattooedmonk]

you do realize that most of this falls on the shoulders of the Soards, right?? Much of what has been said about the man and the art has been imbelished by them , but rather than correcting the mistakes GMT let it alone.

Sometimes correcting these things is worse than just allowing them to go on.

Remember, that bad publicity is better than no publicity and it is possible that if retracted or corrected can bring about more questions and more problems than can be answered.

Most of us agree that Ie Chang Ming brought a "version" of the Shaolin Martial arts he was taught to Indonesia which was influenced by his travels and the geographical locations in which he started his Shaolin Martial Arts School.

There is nothing wrong with this per sey , but saying that it is pure and the original does have it's issues........

I believe that these ideas came about from eliminating certain aspects of the story by simplify the origins to make it more attractive to Americans and for other marketing purposes, seeing as hybridizations and MMA hadnt become all the rage yet.

We know that the forms we study are Chinese, many of them are from styles that can be found in other schools and there are some that are unique to the school.There are aspects of the teachings that have a certain "flavor" that it unique and not like CMA just like any other art that has been taken from one place and added to ad modified etc, so what??

I understand why people have issues with the school, the teachers and what not but for many these things are just not a factor. Not everyones experience has been the same...

I am seeing a new revolution and a changes that has been coming for a long time now. It is time we all get back to basics and resolidify our foundation so that we have something strong and solid to continue to practice, teach and pass on too the next generation of students.

All of the superficial things that everyone talks about real dont matter at all, if you like it do it , if you dont then dont do it....... its as simple as that .

Hey Sal,

I know you are every knowledgeable about CMA and it's history, but knocking other peoples styles/ systems when you have so much going for you seems to be counter productive and makes you look less than you are, I dont see what purpose it serves.

I am sure if we looked into your backround and look at what you have done we could find things to ride you about...but we dont:D

[BoulderDawg]

I am seeing a new revolution and a changes that has been coming for a long time now. It is time we all get back to basics and resolidify our foundation so that we have something strong and solid to continue to practice, teach and pass on too the next generation of students.

What changes? I haven't seen or heard of any changes in the way the program is administered.

[tattooedmonk]

What changes? I seen or heard of any changes in the way the program is administered.Have you ever been to any of the schools that are not run by the Soards?? How about the New Independant Schools??

[BoulderDawg]

Have you ever been to any of the schools that are not run by the Soards?? How about the New Independant Schools??

That's just the difference in personel running the school.

As far as I know the material one has to do to advance is pretty much the same throughout the system. Of course it's taught a lot differently (better or worse) between the schools but it's still the same stuff they were all doing 20-30 years ago. What's changed?

[tattooedmonk]

That's just the difference in personel running the school.

As far as I know the material one has to do to advance is pretty much the same throughout the system. Of course it's taught a lot differently (better or worse) between the schools but it's still the same stuff they were all doing 20-30 years ago. What's changed?Because although the material is the same not everyone is trying to force you to learn it fast and test without knowing the what , where , when , how and why, etc.

Other schools have better business models and instructor / masters as well as students who take it more seriously....

Just because someone puts a whole lot of food on your plate doesnt mean you have to eat it all.....

Basically if you feel that all you need is up to blue blelt material then have enough common sense to stop there and perfect what you already have ...

I would rather have a bad @$$ blue belt than a $H!TTY brown or black belt.

I think 6 month minimum for each of the lower belt levels should be implimented as well as being able to the material on both sides of the body.

[BoulderDawg]

Because although the material is the same not everyone is trying to force you to learn it fast and test without knowing the what , where , when , how and why, etc.

That hardly speaks to a "new revolution and a changes that has been coming for a long time now".

That tells me more of a story of pis poor instructors and quality control.

Mullins and Grooms run their schools better than the Soards but I don't see The' doing anything to help the students in the Soard schools.

Anyway you're going to have good and bad instructors in every organization. Improving the quality of instruction does not represent change and certainly not revolution.

[tattooedmonk]

That hardly speaks to a "new revolution and a changes that has been coming for a long time now".

That tells me more of a story of pis poor instructors and quality control.

Mullins and Grooms run their schools better than the Soards but I don't see The' doing anything to help the students in the Soard schools.

Anyway you're going to have good and bad instructors in every organization. Improving the quality of instruction does not represent change and certainly not revolution.Dont you think that has a lot to do with it??

Your just reading the words on the page and already have a bad taste in your mouth about all this...

seeing is believing in this case , get out of town and be a part of experiences others are having and will be having in the future!!

Forget the Soards schools, I thought you were done with them anyways??

...GMT is not involved on that level anymore.... if someone wants to find a new instructor/ master , then they can ask him or one of the many masters to help them in this area.

as to your last sentence , yes it does.

Dude ,you need to get over your issues about all of this ...i am more than willing to keep talking to you about all of this to help you understand and change your perception

[BoulderDawg]

Forget the Soards schools, I thought you were done with them anyways??

...GMT is not involved on that level anymore....


To me that also speaks to The's character. The Soard schools are operated under his name. If he doesn't care how they are run then it's time he stepped aside and get someone in there who does care.

I have friends who still train at the schools in Colorado and LA. Is it fair that they have to attend a program that is inferior if they want to stay in the art without moving half way across the country?

You live in LA. Do you train under Dean Ash? Sin speaks very highly of Sifu Dean!:D

[tattooedmonk]

To me that also speaks to The's character. The Soard schools are operated under his name. If he doesn't care how they are run then it's time he stepped aside and get someone in there who does care.

I have friends who still train at the schools in Colorado and LA. Is it fair that they have to attend a program that is inferior if they want to stay in the art without moving half way across the country?

You live in LA. Do you train under Dean Ash? Sin speaks very highly of Sifu Dean!:DActually, it doesnt.

The Soards used to have a better program. It is their responsibility, not his. He is not there for the everyday test and advancements....He cares but there is only so much he can do.

I dont know why everyone puts so much on him... its not just some local MA club anymore it is a huge business. He cant be everywhere and do everything....this is what happens when a business gets too big and gets spead thin....

If you want to be good or great you have to find it within yourself to become better. It cant always be pushed off on other people .

The upper level BBs need to step up and say something ..The 9 Renegades did ... it wasnt only about the case against DS.

I dont think it is fair..... things are changing...you will see.

i do not train under the Soards anymore. I do know of dean...many people on the Soards side say he is a good teacher and that is what GMT has to go by...

I still know people in the art who practice under him ....some people are not happy.

The change is coming

[tattooedmonk]

I have some pictures of him, with another student. ;)You keep saying this but have shown us nothing... you keep teasing and saying I will show them and what not, but havent...why??:confused::D

[Facepalm]

If EMD and EMS step down and let the school be run by the upper lvl masters I would consider going back. The only problem is that I think that the way the school has been run over the past years has rubbed off on them.

I wouldnt expect that standards for knowledge of the material would improve. I think it would go further downhill.

That being said I think that some of the younger blacks that are frequent instructors at the boulder and denver schools really take their training seriously and could be the ones to start implementing a more rigorous program.

I would go back if I saw the following things:

1. No more elder masters, as far as im concerned they are disgraced, and going to class for me is unconscionable. It would be as if Im pretending nothing happened.

2. Actual standards for lower belt testing. There are absolutely no standards right now. No one fails tests and people pass by just being able to make motions that even slightly resemble the forms they're taught.

3. Chin Na live training. The way Chin Na is taught there is laughable. No one resists at all and you dont get anything out of it. One day one of the first degree blacks encouraged us to actually resist. I learned more about the Chin Na applications that day than I ever had before.

4. The end of the kool aid. No more 1500 years old this fukien shaolin temple that. Let the merits of the art stand on its own for students without the fantastical portrayals of SD being some lost art that we are only so lucky to be apart of.

5. More of an emphasis on really learning the forms, and a structured set of partner drills to teach people applications. Instead of learning one form a month in brown belt levels, we should expand that to three months, 1 for drilling the applications, 1 for learning the form, and 1 month sparring with emphasis on the form. I think that would really get people learning it the way its intended.


This would be cool. But I dont know whether there is anyone who could implement this other than the elder masters. I really dont think many people know and understand what they are doing anywhere near enough to teach the class in this way. I could be wrong I guess. The future might be interesting for the CSCs in boulder and denver.

[Tao Of The Fist]

If EMD and EMS step down and let the school be run by the upper lvl masters I would consider going back. The only problem is that I think that the way the school has been run over the past years has rubbed off on them.

I wouldnt expect that standards for knowledge of the material would improve. I think it would go further downhill.

That being said I think that some of the younger blacks that are frequent instructors at the boulder and denver schools really take their training seriously and could be the ones to start implementing a more rigorous program.

I would go back if I saw the following things:

1. No more elder masters, as far as im concerned they are disgraced, and going to class for me is unconscionable. It would be as if Im pretending nothing happened.

2. Actual standards for lower belt testing. There are absolutely no standards right now. No one fails tests and people pass by just being able to make motions that even slightly resemble the forms they're taught.

3. Chin Na live training. The way Chin Na is taught there is laughable. No one resists at all and you dont get anything out of it. One day one of the first degree blacks encouraged us to actually resist. I learned more about the Chin Na applications that day than I ever had before.

4. The end of the kool aid. No more 1500 years old this fukien shaolin temple that. Let the merits of the art stand on its own for students without the fantastical portrayals of SD being some lost art that we are only so lucky to be apart of.

5. More of an emphasis on really learning the forms, and a structured set of partner drills to teach people applications. Instead of learning one form a month in brown belt levels, we should expand that to three months, 1 for drilling the applications, 1 for learning the form, and 1 month sparring with emphasis on the form. I think that would really get people learning it the way its intended.


This would be cool. But I dont know whether there is anyone who could implement this other than the elder masters. I really dont think many people know and understand what they are doing anywhere near enough to teach the class in this way. I could be wrong I guess. The future might be interesting for the CSCs in boulder and denver.

Everything that you just mentioned are the things that the people that split off are now focusing on. I had a very good talk with some of these teachers and they all agree on those exact points (well, Im not sure about the whole kool aid thing, but everything else...) and they are implementing those changes.

[Facepalm]

Everything that you just mentioned are the things that the people that split off are now focusing on. I had a very good talk with some of these teachers and they all agree on those exact points (well, Im not sure about the whole kool aid thing, but everything else...) and they are implementing those changes.

Thats really good to hear. Id love to see some of their classes. I also think that it would be healthy to add some gloved contact sparring earlier in the curriculum. All I have to say is that right now I am excellent at not hitting people in the face :D

[MasterKiller]

You keep saying this but have shown us nothing... you keep teasing and saying I will show them and what not, but havent...why??:confused::D

I did post pieces of them! I think you even commented on them.

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4245&d=1197047194


http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4246&d=1197049613


http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4247&d=1197051671


I even sent the originals to Baqualin, who was supposed to show them to Sin The' and some others in Indonesia, but I never heard back.

I haven't posted the whole pics because the source said he was going to release them himself and asked me not to, but that was like 2 years ago. Maybe it's time....

[tattooedmonk]

I did post pieces of them! I think you even commented on them.

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4245&d=1197047194


http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4246&d=1197049613


http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4247&d=1197051671


I even sent the originals to Baqualin, who was supposed to show them to Sin The' and some others in Indonesia, but I never heard back.

I haven't posted the whole pics because the source said he was going to release them himself and asked me not to, but that was like 2 years ago. Maybe it's time....I remember these...cool. it is about time to release them though.. the world is waiting:rolleyes::eek::D

[BoulderDawg]

If EMD and EMS step down and let the school be run by the upper lvl masters I would consider going back. The only problem is that I think that the way the school has been run over the past years has rubbed off on them.

I wouldnt expect that standards for knowledge of the material would improve. I think it would go further downhill.

That being said I think that some of the younger blacks that are frequent instructors at the boulder and denver schools really take their training seriously and could be the ones to start implementing a more rigorous program.

I would go back if I saw the following things:

1. No more elder masters, as far as im concerned they are disgraced, and going to class for me is unconscionable. It would be as if Im pretending nothing happened.

2. Actual standards for lower belt testing. There are absolutely no standards right now. No one fails tests and people pass by just being able to make motions that even slightly resemble the forms they're taught.

3. Chin Na live training. The way Chin Na is taught there is laughable. No one resists at all and you dont get anything out of it. One day one of the first degree blacks encouraged us to actually resist. I learned more about the Chin Na applications that day than I ever had before.

4. The end of the kool aid. No more 1500 years old this fukien shaolin temple that. Let the merits of the art stand on its own for students without the fantastical portrayals of SD being some lost art that we are only so lucky to be apart of.

5. More of an emphasis on really learning the forms, and a structured set of partner drills to teach people applications. Instead of learning one form a month in brown belt levels, we should expand that to three months, 1 for drilling the applications, 1 for learning the form, and 1 month sparring with emphasis on the form. I think that would really get people learning it the way its intended.


This would be cool. But I dont know whether there is anyone who could implement this other than the elder masters. I really dont think many people know and understand what they are doing anywhere near enough to teach the class in this way. I could be wrong I guess. The future might be interesting for the CSCs in boulder and denver.

Gee......Where to begin!:D

The school being taken over by another Master?

To start with there are only two other masters that come to the Boulder school with any regularity. One guy, the younger Master, is a great guy. He's dedicated and knows the material. And, believe you me, that if he was at the school there would be no more of this wimppyass warm up and conditioning. He would put you through the trails. Problem is that even under the best of circumstances I'm not sure that he would want to take over the school. However I think he would be the best choice especially since he's not exactly the Soard's favorite student!:D

The older Master...No. The guy doesn't even know the forms much less being able to teach them. When he leads class it's "Keep me honest. Tell me what I'm doing wrong." and usually he has to stopped 3 or 4 times so students can correct him.

Standards for testing? Yeah Right! I'll believe that when I see it.

Somebody else running the school? Possible but I don't see either one of the two guys that are currently running it taking over. To start with both are total worshippers of the Soards. It just wouldn't work. Also, in the current scandal that's going on I've seen both of these guys lash out against people who criticized the Soards. There's been enough of that. And personally I think both of these guys would leave if the Soards were booted.

***********

Anyway we can shoot the breeze all day long. Truth is nothing is going to change at the Boulder school. The Soards will run that school until they go broke or die.:D

[BoulderDawg]

Who are the people in the pictures. I'm assuming the older guy is suppose to be Ie.

The pics are such poor quality I think it will be hard to make a positve ID. Where are they from?

[themeecer]

I have some pictures of him, with another student. ;)

Ok .. I'll bite. Do explain .... or at least explain in PM.

And by the way ... how's it going? Been a long time since I've been here. I'm glad I missed that sticky discussion above.


Edit: Oops .. I see that you have posted them. TOO COOL!!

I'll take it with a grain of salt, but I want to believe that is him. Strange you would come by them and we haven't. Do you have these in better quality? Can you divulge how you came across these?

Thanks man.

[One student]

Sin The's schools are like a cult, the more the people in it start realizing it's just garbage, the more they can't face it and the more they become "true believers".

Go to a real Chinese Martial Arts school, not a bunch of unrelated stuff that Sin The got from out of a book.

All Shaolin Do routines look bizarre and almost as bad as that other cult Green Dragon.

Bahh, you guys can't face the fact that you learned junk.

Have the guts to go to another Chinese Martial arts school that isn't Sin The related and check it out.

After spending years with SD, I relocated, spent a year in with what professed to be a tradional Chinese Kung Fu school, Xth Generation Grandmaster from China, in Tien Shien Pai. Can it get much more traditional or pure than that? I enjoyed it very much, would still be there but for other committments and travel. I liked it mostly I think because the forms and training were so similar to what I was in at SD. No, not the same forms, names, or that. Similar stances, punches, kicks, techniques. Very easily transitioned to those forms; Chin Na techniques taught at same level. Weapons progressed almost the same. I attended that School's weekend Hsing Ie seminar, very similar, nearly identical, to initial training in Hsing Ie as taught by GM Sin The. I did what you suggest and found just the opposite of what you are describing. Was it a fluke? Or do you suggest I try another one, or another one, until I find one so different that I am as offended as you are, by whatever experience you had?

[One student]

How does territorial stipulations fit into any comment I was making?

Also, using the car analogy, if my new car breaks down anywhere in the US I can carry it to the nearest dealership and they will recognize the warrenty. A membership at the Soard school does not transfer to a membership at a Leonard school.

Also, because of the size if they want to have regional quality control managers then fine. However each school should be independant.

And, as Judge Pen was talking about, there should be no reason why Master Leonard could not do a festival in Los Angeles or Master Mullins could not do a festival in Kentucky if that particular school wanted them.

I thought I was responding to the question of why a teacher cannot go into another teacher's area to open a school. If there are statistically X people likely to participate in martial arts, or Chinese martial arts, two schools offering the same product can at best get 50% of that target, unless they under cut each other, then the other school gets even less than that, the quality suffers, next thing you know, it IS McDonalds. I meant nothing else.

Independence? I guess that depends on who has negotiated the rights for that territory, and can they branch out themselves, thereby not competing with itself but streamlining.

Otherwise, you are so right. Until the first school broke off from Lexington (CSC?), I could (and did) got to at least four different schools, four different teachers, never a problem. This stuff I keep hearing about someone can't go from one of GMS's schools to another, there is no reason for that. EML should be respencted and welcomed at any school associated with GMS, and the other way around as well -- and from what I've heard here, West students are treated well when they go East, but not the other way around. I could be wrong. But right or wrong, you are correct, and that is an undeniable flaw in the System if any teacher would exclude or treat differently any of GMS's students in their school, and be permitted to do it.

Has anyone ever heard of any invitation to a distant teacher to come and share, or participate, or ask to, and it was refused? That would be wrong, too. I was always taught, and did it, that if an elder rank (and I mean by experience, not necessarily belt) came into my class, i ofered it to them to take it over. As JP also said, "ego" too often overrode ethics, loyalty, and respect.

[MasterKiller]

He sent me these July 4th, 2007. I think the statute of limitations is up...

I put the watermark on so these don't turn up on a bunch of SD websites...

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5502&d=1256342937

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5503&d=1256342950

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5504&d=1256342962

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5505&d=1256342972

[themeecer]

He sent me these July 4th, 2007. I think the statute of limitations is up...

I put the watermark on so these don't turn up on a bunch of SD websites...

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5502&d=1256342937

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5503&d=1256342950

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5504&d=1256342962

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5505&d=1256342972

Very nice ... what makes you think this is GM Ie? Why wouldn't you want that showing up on SD sites? If that is our Great Grandmaster, I would think you would be happy we finally have a picture of him .. even if you don't agree that what he teaches is authentic.

Thanks for the upload.

[BoulderDawg]

I thought I was responding to the question of why a teacher cannot go into another teacher's area to open a school.

Show me the question you are talking about. I don't think I, or anyone else here for that matter, is so stupid that we don't know that it's bad form for one instructor to invade the territory of another.

[MasterKiller]

Very nice ... what makes you think this is GM Ie? Why wouldn't you want that showing up on SD sites? If that is our Great Grandmaster, I would think you would be happy we finally have a picture of him .. even if you don't agree that what he teaches is authentic.

Thanks for the upload.

Long story, but the guy who gave them to me said his teacher (the white guy) studied with Ie. Golden Tiger and some other SDers said he was full of **** because Ie never trained non-Chinese, so he sent me the pics for verification. They look an awful lot like the paintings, don't they?

[themeecer]

Long story, but the guy who gave them to me said his teacher (the white guy) studied with Ie. Golden Tiger and some other SDers said he was full of **** because Ie never trained non-Chinese, so he sent me the pics for verification. They look an awful lot like the paintings, don't they?

I was wondering who the big white guy was .. man he sticks out like a sore thumb. hehe

I hadn't heard that GM Ie hadn't trained any non-Chinese. Golden Tiger has never divulged his identity to me so I don't know if he is someone who is close enough to know this. I know he has been around for quite sometime.

Yes, they do look like him .. especially his hairline. This is an awesome find if it is. I would love to talk to this friend of yours and get more info.

Edit: Oh, there are two white guys. The one in the gi and the one with the crazy hair.

[MasterKiller]

Edit: Oh, there are two white guys. The one in the gi and the one with the crazy hair. Crazy hair was his teacher.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here are those videos for easy reference.

o h my god. No, this stuff is all wrong. It's self insighted stuff he created, it's not the real Chinese martial arts concepts.
I can count at least 8 things right off the bad that are not correct.
This is called Zombie KF by the old timers that are over 70 years old that I have ever trained with.

This is karate influenced southern chinese folk stuff, as all Shalin Do stuff is (I can't bear to say Shaolin and desecrate it). Not true Chinese martial arts.

It's wrong, wrong, wrong on so many counts.

Plus, if this is meant to be advanced, I don't know what to say.

We were doing proper body alignment work first before we ever learned any routines.

"Dead man walking" as much teachers would say for zombie style KF.

I don't know how I can even discuss it without actually teaching.

"Let them eat dog poop if they want to eat dog poop" is what another of my teachers said about correcting others bad KF (with stronger word for poop).

I'm sorry, you don't want to hear it and so will deny it.

The fact that you don't realize and thus can't tell me why this stuff is incorrect is disturbing.

Please tell me:

1- What is the major tenet in common with all Chinese martial arts (CMA)?

2 - What is the main strategic points of CMA?

3 - What are the main important body mechanics rules of CMA?

4 - What is the most important things to note about CMA footwork?

[Sal Canzonieri]

you do realize that most of this falls on the shoulders of the Soards, right?? Much of what has been said about the man and the art has been imbelished by them , but rather than correcting the mistakes GMT let it alone.

Sometimes correcting these things is worse than just allowing them to go on.

Remember, that bad publicity is better than no publicity and it is possible that if retracted or corrected can bring about more questions and more problems than can be answered.

Most of us agree that Ie Chang Ming brought a "version" of the Shaolin Martial arts he was taught to Indonesia which was influenced by his travels and the geographical locations in which he started his Shaolin Martial Arts School.

There is nothing wrong with this per sey , but saying that it is pure and the original does have it's issues........

I believe that these ideas came about from eliminating certain aspects of the story by simplify the origins to make it more attractive to Americans and for other marketing purposes, seeing as hybridizations and MMA hadnt become all the rage yet.

We know that the forms we study are Chinese, many of them are from styles that can be found in other schools and there are some that are unique to the school.There are aspects of the teachings that have a certain "flavor" that it unique and not like CMA just like any other art that has been taken from one place and added to ad modified etc, so what??

I understand why people have issues with the school, the teachers and what not but for many these things are just not a factor. Not everyones experience has been the same...

I am seeing a new revolution and a changes that has been coming for a long time now. It is time we all get back to basics and resolidify our foundation so that we have something strong and solid to continue to practice, teach and pass on too the next generation of students.

All of the superficial things that everyone talks about real dont matter at all, if you like it do it , if you dont then dont do it....... its as simple as that .

Hey Sal,

I know you are every knowledgeable about CMA and it's history, but knocking other peoples styles/ systems when you have so much going for you seems to be counter productive and makes you look less than you are, I dont see what purpose it serves.

I am sure if we looked into your backround and look at what you have done we could find things to ride you about...but we dont:D

I'm not knocking it for the sake of knocking it for fun.

I am sincerely saddened that so many truly good people have spent so much time and effort (and money) to learn incorrect foundational material (if they learned it at all) and they did so with great sincerity. And they have a deep belief that they are doing their best and learning the best stuff and so on.
But, they didn't learn the most basic and most important aspects of real Chinese Martial Arts.
Not for stylistic reasons, but just the very foundational material that makes real CMA work in the first place.

(back in the late 80s /early 90s when I saw the Soards do some exhibitions, it was like cartoon KF moves from the movies. Footwork wrong, waist movements wrong, body alignment wrong, internal movement wrong, energy movement wrong, I can't go on. Maybe it was them that perpetuated improper body alignment and core mechanics by emphasizing collecting routines over known HOW and WHY the body must move a certain way or it doesn't work.)

[Sal Canzonieri]

After spending years with SD, I relocated, spent a year in with what professed to be a tradional Chinese Kung Fu school, Xth Generation Grandmaster from China, in Tien Shien Pai. Can it get much more traditional or pure than that? I enjoyed it very much, would still be there but for other committments and travel. I liked it mostly I think because the forms and training were so similar to what I was in at SD. No, not the same forms, names, or that. Similar stances, punches, kicks, techniques. Very easily transitioned to those forms; Chin Na techniques taught at same level. Weapons progressed almost the same. I attended that School's weekend Hsing Ie seminar, very similar, nearly identical, to initial training in Hsing Ie as taught by GM Sin The. I did what you suggest and found just the opposite of what you are describing. Was it a fluke? Or do you suggest I try another one, or another one, until I find one so different that I am as offended as you are, by whatever experience you had?

Tien Shien Pai is a modern 1940s amalgamated system developed by someone that was pretty much like Sin The. He made it all up (history and origin) and based the style on real martial art routines from various systems. That system teaches a hodgepodge of material from all over.

Same as Sin The's material is based on actual real routines, its not alien stuff not found anywhere on earth.

Real true deep Chinese Martial Arts don't teach a ton of forms.
You spend years learning how and why to do core body mechanics and movements, but they also teach how even the stretching and warm up moves can be used for self defense. Though they may give you deep and long term learning of the foundational material, they right away emphasize being able to defense yourself using everyday natural movements, so no time is wasted.
Every single school or person I learned CMA from in the late 70s, 80s, etc taught this way. Efficiency and Effectiveness from day one. How and Why from day one.

[BoulderDawg]

There are people who spend 80-90 hours a week playing Guitar Hero....biggest waste of time I can think of. However I'm not going to get on a BB and tell them they are doing wrong.:D

[Sal Canzonieri]

Long story, but the guy who gave them to me said his teacher (the white guy) studied with Ie. Golden Tiger and some other SDers said he was full of **** because Ie never trained non-Chinese, so he sent me the pics for verification. They look an awful lot like the paintings, don't they?

Hmm, that old guy is showing correct body mechanics and core alignment.
Why didn't this get transmitted to SD?
Maybe Sin The is keeping things from the "guai lo" and purposefully teaching incorrect? Or maybe he wasn't such a good student after all? 'In the kingdom of the blind even a one eyed man is king', eh?

[Sal Canzonieri]

There are people who spend 80-90 hours a week playing Guitar Hero....biggest waste of time I can think of. However I'm not going to get on a BB and tell them they are doing wrong.:D

Well, they are playing a game, not learning to play guitar.
They are having fun and developing their hand eye coordination and motor skills. And some places use it as therapy to keep alzheimer's from further developing.
You can switch to a regular hand held unit instead of the toy guitar and still be able to play (actually you can play the game better).

Are you saying that doing Shalin Do routines is like the equivalent of playing Guitar Hero?

Ha, I think you would get more out of playing Guitar Hero.

I have met quite a few young people (most females for some reason) that played Guitar Hero for a long time and then were able to learn real guitar pretty quickly, they understood the fretboard, fingering, timing, rhythm, melody, and so on.

[Golden Tiger]

Golden Tiger and some other SDers said he was full of **** because Ie never trained non-Chinese, so he sent me the pics for verification.

I am not sure I ever made that statement although I might have said he was full of poo poo for other reasons.

I will add that the old man in the pictures does not look to be build the same way as to the paintings. But that could be attributed to artistic impression.....

[BoulderDawg]

Well, they are playing a game, not learning to play guitar.
They are having fun and developing their hand eye coordination and motor skills. And some places use it as therapy to keep alzheimer's from further developing.
You can switch to a regular hand held unit instead of the toy guitar and still be able to play (actually you can play the game better).

Are you saying that doing Shalin Do routines is like the equivalent of playing Guitar Hero?

Ha, I think you would get more out of playing Guitar Hero.

I have met quite a few young people (most females for some reason) that played Guitar Hero for a long time and then were able to learn real guitar pretty quickly, they understood the fretboard, fingering, timing, rhythm, melody, and so on.

What I am saying is that I don't care what kind of martial arts you are doing. And guess what? No one else really does either. In fact a 100 years from now there is not going to be anybody around that cared that you did martial arts, played guitar, played video game or anything. It's simply not important. It's not going to save lives. It's not a work of art that will survive the ages, it's just something you did and enjoyed.

In the same vein there are dozens of people studying SD that enjoy it. They absolutely don't care that you feel sad because they are doing it incorrectly. And guess what? The fact that you think they are doing it incorrectly doesn't mean anything. People are not going to stave because a group of folks are doing Shao-lin Do somewhere. Also, I don't know of anyone who's going to build a shine to honor you just because your're doing the "right" kung Fu!

[Sal Canzonieri]

What I am saying is that I don't care what kind of martial arts you are doing. And guess what? No one else really does either. In fact a 100 years from now there is not going to be anybody around that cared that you did martial arts, played guitar, played video game or anything. It's simply not important. It's not going to save lives. It's not a work of art that will survive the ages, it's just something you did and enjoyed.

In the same vein there are dozens of people studying SD that enjoy it. They absolutely don't care that you feel sad because they are doing it incorrectly. And guess what? The fact that you think they are doing it incorrectly doesn't mean anything. People are not going to stave because a group of folks are doing Shao-lin Do somewhere. Also, I don't know of anyone who's going to build a shine to honor you just because your're doing the "right" kung Fu!


boo hoo, poor little kitty. Everything ends up being just a dream or masturbation.

CMA is about 4,000 years old, and unless people all die, will still be here in 100 years.

[Judge Pen]

Long story, but the guy who gave them to me said his teacher (the white guy) studied with Ie. Golden Tiger and some other SDers said he was full of **** because Ie never trained non-Chinese, so he sent me the pics for verification. They look an awful lot like the paintings, don't they?

It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story?

[Judge Pen]

Sal, if you even watched the videos you would have known that he was showing basics that one would learn in their first few classes so your statement about it being advanced shows you aren't even caring to be objective.

What was fundamentally wrong with his horse stance? Was his back out of alingment and if so, what is proper? Were his feet wrong? His legs at the wrong angle?

I agree that SD is not pure CMA, that it has its own blending of body mechanics and power generation because it is a blending of CMA, JMA and IMA and then filtered trhough one man's (maybe two men's) understanding of the same and teaching it to a bunch of americans.

[MasterKiller]

It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story?

Sin's stories don't exactly have a ton of credibility, you know? Maybe he thought it sounded more mystical. Earp also said there were several teachers there, and each only knew a couple of styles.

Of course, it might not even be Ie. But the facial structure is close to that of the paintings, especially the jawline.

But now you have them. Show them to Sin. Show them to the Soards. Or Leonard. Or whoever.

[themeecer]

I am not sure I ever made that statement although I might have said he was full of poo poo for other reasons.
Well, that's a given. :D


I will add that the old man in the pictures does not look to be build the same way as to the paintings. But that could be attributed to artistic impression..... It could be due to artistic impression or have been painted at an earlier date. I agree, I always thought he would be a bigger man. Maybe I am letting my western mind get in the way of what I think an iron man master should look like.

[Leto]

There's elitists in every style. Karate guys will say the exact same thing about body mechanics, correct alignment, foundation, etc, except they believe that the Japanese or Okinawan way is the most correct and beneficial way for the body to move in order to produce the most strength and power, and that Chinese martial arts are wrong. And I'm sure the people who practice the "southern folk stuff" feel the same way about their styles' mechanics and postures. Every style thinks it is the most correct way. If it's an older style, it is the correct way because it came first and has been practiced for centuries. If it's a newer style, it's the correct way because they have made improvements over the years based on experience and education. So what style has it right?

Of course, if you don't devote enough time to anything, you won't have it "right" no matter which style you're trying to represent.

[themeecer]

It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story? Well, this guy is white ... but that doesn't mean he is American. Or maybe he was American but friendly enough with the people there that he was accepted. Maybe Ie's bias was against mainland Americans or simply a general mistrust of the west. Or maybe the bias wasn't his own and simply those of his contemporaries.

Ok, I am done speculating ... having a cookout for my students today and I need to go clean my grill.

[Sal Canzonieri]

It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story?

He benefits by coming across as the hero, who has opened to the door to the west.
He becomes the sole key to obtaining this forbidden information. He becomes the only way to receive it. He gets more power and is seen as I an enlightened good guy that just wants to give westerners a chance.

[Sal Canzonieri]

There's elitists in every style. Karate guys will say the exact same thing about body mechanics, correct alignment, foundation, etc, except they believe that the Japanese or Okinawan way is the most correct and beneficial way for the body to move in order to produce the most strength and power, and that Chinese martial arts are wrong. And I'm sure the people who practice the "southern folk stuff" feel the same way about their styles' mechanics and postures. Every style thinks it is the most correct way. If it's an older style, it is the correct way because it came first and has been practiced for centuries. If it's a newer style, it's the correct way because they have made improvements over the years based on experience and education. So what style has it right?

Of course, if you don't devote enough time to anything, you won't have it "right" no matter which style you're trying to represent.

None of you can answer my four questions because none of you were taught it.

Basic foundational material is not elitism. It's core knowledge.
If one professes to teach CMA routines, then one should know what the core knowledge is and should be able to transmit it. Unless one doesn't know and is copying routines from books OR unless one is deliberately holding back information.

[kwaichang]

Sal I can answe your questions but you would only say that I learned it somewhere else since i took from other CMA in the past. KC
But isnt it nice how power can be generated from the waist / or trunk

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, if you even watched the videos you would have known that he was showing basics that one would learn in their first few classes so your statement about it being advanced shows you aren't even caring to be objective.

What was fundamentally wrong with his horse stance? Was his back out of alignment and if so, what is proper? Were his feet wrong? His legs at the wrong angle?

I agree that SD is not pure CMA, that it has its own blending of body mechanics and power generation because it is a blending of CMA, JMA and IMA and then filtered trhough one man's (maybe two men's) understanding of the same and teaching it to a bunch of americans.

Well, for one, Sin The professes to teach NORTHERN SHAOLIN Routines, for the most part.
CMA, JMA, IMA is contradictory information, each one was developed based on the social and environmental factors of the region. Chimera-izing Northern CMA makes it ineffective and inefficient.

The horse stance is only emphasized in beginner training to strengthen the muscle skeletal structure and then they move on from there to what its real function and self defense use is for. The is no need for the deep standing still stance unless it is used for meditation purposes. The stances are never used like statues during movement of a routine, they are TRANSITIONAL MOVEMENTS ONLY.

I wasn't focusing on the horse stance, that was the least important thing to observe, it was his movements and his transitions and his muscle-skeletal state and his awareness of "WHY" things are the way they are (well, if he was really doing CMA, instead of this self conflicting hybrid).

What I have issue with all is all the core details are not there for the rest of the movements, not the stance per se, the stance is just a means to an end, it is not the end itself.
The stance isolated HENDERS self defense. You can have a perfect horse stance, so what? What do you do with it? That's important to know, and then how do you move on from there to full actualize one's self defense ability. Martial art is self defense, not stances from a movie.

Look, I am not trying to be all 'elite' and saying I am so much better than you all, if anyone thinks that then they are being defense.

Why don't we really talk about the how and why, why the real stuff really works and why this stuff doesn't. The mechanics of CMA.
(and sparring is artificial, it's not real self defense, it's a sport like thing)

Well, I'd like to see you answer my four questions that I gave in that previous post.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal I can answe your questions but you would only say that I learned it somewhere else since i took from other CMA in the past. KC
But isnt it nice how power can be generated from the waist / or trunk

So, what does that mean? That you use other CMA to make your SD stuff work right?

[One student]

Show me the question you are talking about. I don't think I, or anyone else here for that matter, is so stupid that we don't know that it's bad form for one instructor to invade the territory of another.

I was addressing the combination of your and KC's exchange, including someone's comment regarding anyone wanting to open a school anywhere they want (I know I am generalizing), and which I didn't say was "invading," but I guess that would be one way of looking at someone opening a school within a competitive distance to another, without some permission, or at least coordination. And including your question:

"Why do they need to be groups of schools under this or that elder/senior master?"

At least implying, an E/SM is the "head" of that area, and all schools within that "area" are "under" that Master. That seems to be consistent with a practiced business model of dividing areas into regions, with regional "managers," and individual districts, or territories, whatever you want to call them. I intended to address the concept, maybe not the exact words. I will plead guilty to going beyond the exact words of your question, in an attempt to address the broader concept, and was not implying anyone is "stupid." Note my history of posting: I do not attack anyone, particularly someone's intelligence whom I have never met -- although I may challenge their statements if constructive to do so.

[tattooedmonk]

What are your four questions ??? And what do you mean SD doesnt work and real CMA does??

And BTW ...where is our new friend starr??

[One student]

Tien Shien Pai is a modern 1940s amalgamated system developed by someone that was pretty much like Sin The. He made it all up (history and origin) and based the style on real martial art routines from various systems. That system teaches a hodgepodge of material from all over.

Same as Sin The's material is based on actual real routines, its not alien stuff not found anywhere on earth.

Real true deep Chinese Martial Arts don't teach a ton of forms.
You spend years learning how and why to do core body mechanics and movements, but they also teach how even the stretching and warm up moves can be used for self defense. Though they may give you deep and long term learning of the foundational material, they right away emphasize being able to defense yourself using everyday natural movements, so no time is wasted.
Every single school or person I learned CMA from in the late 70s, 80s, etc taught this way. Efficiency and Effectiveness from day one. How and Why from day one.

I am always trying to LEARN more about what I don't know, and always from someone who knows more than I. Right or wrong, GM Sin The, and his students who first taught me, knew a lot more than I did when I started, and as far as I can tell a lot more than anything else available at the time. As more than one teacher said to me me about martial arts, don't criticize Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon Do, part of it is in what we all do, too. So, doing something, if not the best (who gets to go to the real Temple to train?), is still better than nothing, isn't it? Not everyone has the good fortune to be where the Schools you describe are, and have the opportunities you apparently have had and benefitted from.

I stand corrected if I don't know more about Tien Shien Pai than you do. I would be honored by you answering to me, here or by PM, the answers to your own prior 4 questions. It would of course test me and teach me at the same time, which you have no obligation to do. But that is the only reason I am "here" -- to learn more, or at least help others learn something I know that maybe they don't. Otherwise, this whole forum and everything like it is just "Guitar Hero."

And no one "wants" to eat "dog poop," they just don't know that's what it is, if that's what it is -- and in some cases that is in the eye of the beholder. I would benefit from your answers to your own questions, regardless of whether I agree with them, or even understand them, or not. Different perspectives are educational in themselves, aren't they?

[One student]

Sal I can answe your questions but you would only say that I learned it somewhere else since i took from other CMA in the past. KC
But isnt it nice how power can be generated from the waist / or trunk

So, how difficult is it to at least generally say what you think the answers to those questions are, either here or by PM, so we/I can decide, is it something we already know/do, or not?

[MasterKiller]

Well, this guy is white ... but that doesn't mean he is American. Or maybe he was American but friendly enough with the people there that he was accepted. Maybe Ie's bias was against mainland Americans or simply a general mistrust of the west. Or maybe the bias wasn't his own and simply those of his contemporaries.

Ok, I am done speculating ... having a cookout for my students today and I need to go clean my grill.

He's not American. He's Dutch.

[BoulderDawg]

Concerning the picture:

I'm sure this will be dismissed but I just found it interesting that no Asian in these pictures is wearing a Gi. That was always one of the things that The's stressed. Everyone wore a gi because they wanted to hide anything Chinese.

Even in the group picture the only guy that looks like he has a gi on is the tall westerner in the center. Also from the way that looks I'm guessing the tall guy was some sort of guest of honor here. Would not everyone be wearing their gi?

Also, from that group picture, I'm guessing (because of the clothes they are wearing) that this was taken sometime in the 60s. I bet a lot of those people are still alive and could tell you exactly who that is.

I just don't think it's Ie.

[kwaichang]

Stepping should be secure and like it is suctioning the floor/ground
Ankle to knee to hip to waist to spine to shoulder to elbow to hand
punching should be as natural as walking
MA consissts of thrusting, kicking punching locking turning and throwing
all CMA consists of the Yin Yang or pos/neg of the technique . All CMA have the EYES or stare however you want to say it. The wording is different but all techniques or Chi emanates from the Dan Tien.

Hey have you heard of the ancient Greek MA Baklava it is so full of energy or honey you can fight forever. Just a bad joke to lighten things up a bit. KC

[kwaichang]

Is that what you wanted not sure things are often taught differently.
To say a MA is not effective because you have seen poor MA from that system is not to say it isnt good. KC

[MasterKiller]

I'm sure this will be dismissed but I just found it interesting that no Asian in these pictures is wearing a Gi. That was always one of the things that The's stressed. Everyone wore a gi because they wanted to hide anything Chinese.

Even in the group picture the only guy that looks like he has a gi on is the tall westerner in the center. Also from the way that looks I'm guessing the tall guy was some sort of guest of honor here. Would not everyone be wearing their gi? The large guy was a visiting Judo player, according to Earp. He was just there for a couple of months.

Have you ever considered that the gi story is bullsh1t? That maybe they trained CMA in Bandung the same way everyone else trains..in t-shirts and pants?



I just don't think it's Ie. People with more invested in the style than you have privately told me they believe it is. Maybe. Maybe not.

But wouldn't it be cool if it is?

[BoulderDawg]

Have you ever considered that the gi story is bullsh1t? That maybe they trained CMA in Bandung the same way everyone else trains..in t-shirts and pants?

I haven't totally dismissed the idea that Sin The' isn't some guy who grew up in south Lexington and has made up the entire thing.

But as far as to whether that is or is not Ie should be fairly easy to prove if someone really wanted to. There are like 30-40 people in that picture. My guess is that most of them are still alive. I'm sure a good PI in Bandung could track that information down in a couple of weeks....if any information exist.

[MasterKiller]

I haven't totally dismissed the idea that Sin The' isn't some guy who grew up in south Lexington and has made up the entire thing.

But as far as to whether that is or is not Ie should be fairly easy to prove if someone really wanted to. There are like 30-40 people in that picture. My guess is that most of them are still alive. I'm sure a good PI in Bandung could track that information down in a couple of weeks....if any information exist.

Baqualin was supposed to show them to Sin himself in Sept. But I haven't heard anything.

[goju]

A very long time ago, he was sued, in Kentucky, his brother testified against him actually. That's when they split off from each other and his brother went his own way. It came out that he has used books and videos to add more routines to his system. Over 20 years ago, there was articles out about this and when there was only the UseNet message boards and internet forums didn't exist yet, people had posted the transcripts of the case.

In my opinion, that explains why his routines often looked like strings of postures seen in a photograph to me, without the necessary intermediate movements that happen between the postures (which can't be shown in a book, but by a teacher).

yep i was even shown the tai chi book they lifted their yang form from

i can tell from personal experience all they did was rip off forms from books and then teach tme to their studentsahahhaha

[Sal Canzonieri]

Stepping should be secure and like it is suctioning the floor/ground
Ankle to knee to hip to waist to spine to shoulder to elbow to hand
punching should be as natural as walking
MA consissts of thrusting, kicking punching locking turning and throwing
all CMA consists of the Yin Yang or pos/neg of the technique . All CMA have the EYES or stare however you want to say it. The wording is different but all techniques or Chi emanates from the Dan Tien.

Hey have you heard of the ancient Greek MA Baklava it is so full of energy or honey you can fight forever. Just a bad joke to lighten things up a bit. KC

Umm, no. None of this answered any of the 4 questions.

[kwaichang]

SAL you need to clarify what you want As this is a portion of what I was taught, You asked about stepping I answered it ,: light but secure with foundation . there is no stopping in MA the bio mechanics are based upon the above principles with with joints aligned at their strongest point. The Low movements open from the Kua I really am not sure what youi are asking but all depends on the 4 principles and 8 rules. KC

[kwaichang]

Your 4 questions is like asking what is the best spaghetti , different cook, different recipe KC

[Mas Judt]

KC,
Those four questions that Sal asked do have a common answer for all systems that claim the content SD does. It is not a different chef, different recipe situation. It's basic foundational knowledge of CMA.

Having seen SD first hand, it is a mish mash of stuff, often contradictory material and has a strong JMA stamp on it. This is common in SE Asia - for a variety of reasons you can read about in Don Draeger's Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia. (there are also closely preserved systems - heck Mustika Kwitang Silat is pure early 1900's Nanquan)

Not coming close on those four questions after decades in SD simply demonstrates that SD is not 'pure' CMA, nor is it really CMA anymore. It is it's own thing.

Good or bad, I leave that up to you to decide.

[kwaichang]

Asking a vague question and expecting a verbatum answer does not indicate it doesnt exist or isnt in SD. It may not be demonstrated but it is there. I researched my answers before giving them and on 3 different occasions the answers were confirmed by Chinese Masters and sources. It is like me asking what is the primary shoulder depressor while doing a push up/ 100 therapists at least 10 different ways to say it. KC
Not meaning to argue but 15 years of my background is in JMA and SD aint that.

[kwaichang]

Then you tell us what is the answer then. Bcause 5 Chinese masters and sources cant be WONG haha KC

[BoulderDawg]

Umm, no. None of this answered any of the 4 questions.


You know since you're so close and you are so sad to see all these SD people wasting their time why not head up to the CSC in New York and challenge Thad Wong. Since Thad does everything wrong you should be able to take care of him in a few minutes and show all his students just how wrong he is.:D

[kwaichang]

Try this then
any good style of martial art should have a healthy balance of both internal and external principles, and no martial art, regardless of its technique or training, is purely internal or external. These two principles are inseparable, from the readily observable to the unperceivable, in a dynamic, mutually dependent relationship.

Hard and soft, relaxed and taught, up and down, opening and closing, thought and action. . . Yin and Yang- principles manifest in the training theories and methods, techniques, and philosophy of all styles of martial art; however, one should not become too dogmatic about use of this terminology

Stepping should be fast but rooted . If this isnt correct then I am at a loss as to what the heck you want. KC
BTW this is what I have said and included the 8 principles and 4 methods.

[tattooedmonk]

Try this then
any good style of martial art should have a healthy balance of both internal and external principles, and no martial art, regardless of its technique or training, is purely internal or external. These two principles are inseparable, from the readily observable to the unperceivable, in a dynamic, mutually dependent relationship.

Hard and soft, relaxed and taught, up and down, opening and closing, thought and action. . . Yin and Yang- principles manifest in the training theories and methods, techniques, and philosophy of all styles of martial art; however, one should not become too dogmatic about use of this terminology

Stepping should be fast but rooted . If this isnt correct then I am at a loss as to what the heck you want. KC
BTW this is what I have said and included the 8 principles and 4 methods.Try telling him in the way he wants you to tell him, using his own words......read his articles ..... What he wants to hear is the regergitation of his writings. He wants to hear it in his exact term phrasing ( dogma) or he is going to argue and say that what you are posting is not what he is talking about. so, basically he has proven that we do not know anything about CMA or practice CMA .

once again Sal , I do not understand why someone with as much knowledge, skill and following, etc. seems to feel the need to bash other people in what they do.

Shaolin is a name,so is kung fu , a punch is a punch and a kick is kick, many styles do them the same, many of them do them differently . Everyone has their own opinion and perspective on things . If you want to offer information and show people the error of their ways .....I believe that you need to find a better method.

If you want to teach, wait for the student to come to you , do not go looking for them ....because you will never find them:D

[kwaichang]

TTM, I dont care if if Sal was next door and was begging me to be his student, i never would . What is missing most from him is Humility for without it no one can become a great MA. The one we learn the most from is sometimes the the one with the least to offer. KC
BTW i would never be able to regurgitate his stuff as I would only buy a book of his if it was on sale at the dollar store. KC

[SDJerry]

o h my god. No, this stuff is all wrong. It's self insighted stuff he created, it's not the real Chinese martial arts concepts.
I can count at least 8 things right off the bad that are not correct.
This is called Zombie KF by the old timers that are over 70 years old that I have ever trained with.

This is karate influenced southern chinese folk stuff, as all Shalin Do stuff is (I can't bear to say Shaolin and desecrate it). Not true Chinese martial arts.

It's wrong, wrong, wrong on so many counts.

Plus, if this is meant to be advanced, I don't know what to say.

We were doing proper body alignment work first before we ever learned any routines.

"Dead man walking" as much teachers would say for zombie style KF.

I don't know how I can even discuss it without actually teaching.

"Let them eat dog poop if they want to eat dog poop" is what another of my teachers said about correcting others bad KF (with stronger word for poop).

I'm sorry, you don't want to hear it and so will deny it.

The fact that you don't realize and thus can't tell me why this stuff is incorrect is disturbing.

Please tell me:

1- What is the major tenet in common with all Chinese martial arts (CMA)?

2 - What is the main strategic points of CMA?

3 - What are the main important body mechanics rules of CMA?

4 - What is the most important things to note about CMA footwork?

Hell, if I'm wrong I'll just ask Sifu hehehe

1. They're all Chinese
2. You have gates and nothing can strike you without entering a gate. When you strike you open a gate. Most forms, if you pay attention, strike and then cover that gate. Also in kungfu you have long range and short range techniques. You should know which are which. Lastly, deception plays a large roll in cma. If you want to go high you must go low, you attack the right by moving left.

3. Power is generated from the earth through the legs, hips, torso, and so forth. Footwork is key because if your base is not solid, you can not generate proper power. Also, you should not lean into your punches or fully extend your am. The shoulder should stay packed. Most importantly, the hips drive everything. Stay loose until impact

4. All fighting styles usually adopt a triangular method for footwork. My Sifu explains that not all styles are truly developed for fighting.

I don't know the exact 4 answers you're looking for but there you go hehehe. That's my attempt to answer. Sifu never really said... Now we will learn the 4 main principles fo cma

[kwaichang]

No we will learn Sals interpretation of the 4 main tenets etc. KC

[goju]

TTM, I dont care if if Sal was next door and was begging me to be his student, i never would . What is missing most from him is Humility for without it no one can become a great MA. The one we learn the most from is sometimes the the one with the least to offer. KC
BTW i would never be able to regurgitate his stuff as I would only buy a book of his if it was on sale at the dollar store. KC

lmao!!!!! yeah talk about humility you old fool look at your post

yeah im sure sals crying under his bed because you wouldnt teach him aahahahahhaha

guys you sd people are like the kid in school with a "kick me" sign taped to his back and you cant figure out why everyone in class is laughing at you

trust me no one wants your instruction bubba

[Sal Canzonieri]

KC,
Those four questions that Sal asked do have a common answer for all systems that claim the content SD does. It is not a different chef, different recipe situation. It's basic foundational knowledge of CMA.

Having seen SD first hand, it is a mish mash of stuff, often contradictory material and has a strong JMA stamp on it. This is common in SE Asia - for a variety of reasons you can read about in Don Draeger's Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia. (there are also closely preserved systems - heck Mustika Kwitang Silat is pure early 1900's Nanquan)

Not coming close on those four questions after decades in SD simply demonstrates that SD is not 'pure' CMA, nor is it really CMA anymore. It is it's own thing.

Good or bad, I leave that up to you to decide.

Exactly, if the had called it anything else rather than using Shaolin in the name, no one would care that what junk they were teaching people who didn't know better.
Karate has this problem all the time, loads of made up hodgepodge garbage karate masquerading as traditional "secret" super rare material.

[Lokhopkuen]

No we will learn Sals interpretation of the 4 main tenets etc. KC

Are U in LA now KC? Let's hang out:D PM me.


Bad Goju Bad! LOL!

[goju]

i dont think kwai ever really knows where he is lol
you know how the elderly are prone to dementia

[Sal Canzonieri]

Asking a vague question and expecting a verbatum answer does not indicate it doesnt exist or isnt in SD. It may not be demonstrated but it is there. I researched my answers before giving them and on 3 different occasions the answers were confirmed by Chinese Masters and sources. It is like me asking what is the primary shoulder depressor while doing a push up/ 100 therapists at least 10 different ways to say it. KC
Not meaning to argue but 15 years of my background is in JMA and SD aint that.

HAHHHAAAA, "vague question"?? It's STANDARD INFORMATION.

It's clear you do "stuff" and don't know WHY it is done (if you even were taught anything of real use and value in SD).

The four questions can be answered in short simple clear and concise answers, there is no mystery to them if someone really learned and understood traditional CMA.

1- What is the major tenet in common with all Chinese martial arts (CMA)?

2 - What is the main strategic points of CMA?

3 - What are the main important body mechanics rules of CMA?

4 - What is the most important things to note about CMA footwork?

Without giving out the answers, I will tell you a little about the questions:

1. ALL CMA is based on one cardinal idea that separates it from all other martial arts in the world. And real traditional Shaolin Quan made it into a science and an art form by the end of the Qing Dynasty.

2. ALL CMA has a main strategy because of the conditions people lived under historically in China.

3. The main important body mechanics are what makes all the movements efficient and effective, and after 4,000+ years, they have been proven over and over.

Not doing them makes people do dance moves rather than self defense. Heck, knowing them will even make dance moves usable for self defense. I always ask new students if they know how to dance and I show them how to use these movements to help them undersand the martial arts they will be learning, for example the Tango, etc.

4. CMA footwork has specific methods and not doing them weakens one's postures and transition movements beyond repair. In fact, old masters look for these clues when watching you perform a routine, they watch your feet to see if you really learned stuff or just half a s s ed junk.

You either have an understanding about how and why the CMA routines are composed as they are or you just don't (because you never were told and were never given a chance to learn them).

[Sal Canzonieri]

Then you tell us what is the answer then. Bcause 5 Chinese masters and sources cant be WONG haha KC

You don't understand the questions, so you don't know what to ask.

[Leto]

I would be interested to see the answers people provide for these four questions in the main kung fu forum. Are we sure all those people who practice different varieties of "real" CMA will come up with the exact same rote answers for each of those questions, exactly as they were presented here? Of course, the experiment won't work if everyone is following this thread and have collaborated on the "correct" answers. It's easy to pick on SD, since it's obvious that there is so much wrong with the system. But I wonder, will someone from southern mantis/Chow Ga, or tibetan white crane/Hop Ga, all say exactly the same things? Or how about Yang taijiquan and Hung Ga? The answers may be similar, but does everyone really have rote answers prepared, which they learned verbatim from their instructor?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Try this then
any good style of martial art should have a healthy balance of both internal and external principles, and no martial art, regardless of its technique or training, is purely internal or external. These two principles are inseparable, from the readily observable to the unperceivable, in a dynamic, mutually dependent relationship.

Hard and soft, relaxed and taught, up and down, opening and closing, thought and action. . . Yin and Yang- principles manifest in the training theories and methods, techniques, and philosophy of all styles of martial art; however, one should not become too dogmatic about use of this terminology

Stepping should be fast but rooted . If this isnt correct then I am at a loss as to what the heck you want. KC
BTW this is what I have said and included the 8 principles and 4 methods.

This is saying nothing. This is like new age Bruce Lee stuff, who never finished learning CMA and then tried to reinvent the wheel.
Say the above with a Elmer Fudd Bruce Lee accent and see how funny it is.

[BoulderDawg]

I'm interested in knowing how this guy knows what someone did 4,000 years ago.:D

Truth be known, I seriously doubt, considering the troubles in China, that anything has been passed down in the past 100 years...much less 4,000.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
TTM, I dont care if if Sal was next door and was begging me to be his student, i never would . What is missing most from him is Humility for without it no one can become a great MA. The one we learn the most from is sometimes the the one with the least to offer. KC
BTW i would never be able to regurgitate his stuff as I would only buy a book of his if it was on sale at the dollar store. KC


lmao!!!!! yeah talk about humility you old fool look at your post

yeah im sure sals crying under his bed because you wouldnt teach him aahahahahhaha

guys you sd people are like the kid in school with a "kick me" sign taped to his back and you cant figure out why everyone in class is laughing at you

trust me no one wants your instruction bubba

WOW! Me take lessons from him?

What's humility got to do with any of this anyway?
This is all words on a screen, no one is hearing tone of voice or seeing body language. People project their own emotions to the words they see on the screen.

What, we should be all passive aggressive and not "hurt people's feelings"?

IF I REALLY CARE ABOUT PEOPLE< I should tell the truth and face the consequences.
"A man advised is half saved" says a famous proverb.

A guarantee you that one day of lessons with me and you will cry because of how much time and effort you have wasted up til then.

I've had plenty of people who learned fast food martial arts visit my classes and be all "expert". I politely ask the to hit me and I take them down, slowly, easily, and without their being able to resist and gently place them on the floor to show control and compassion. Then they always apologize and say they are never going back to their previous school again. Not that they go to mine either (maybe they are too embarassed?). I like work with people who want a PHD in martial arts, who have already trained a long time, sometimes in a non CMA, and want to have a deep understanding about WHY besides HOW the movements of CMA are the way they are.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm interested in knowing how this guy knows what someone did 4,000 years ago.:D

Truth be known, I seriously doubt, considering the troubles in China, that anything has been past down in the past 100 years...much less 4,000.

EVERY traditional CMA routine and style was based on an earlier one.

The oldest CMA is Shuai Jiao (what it is called today), whose ideas and methods are over 4,000 years old. It has influenced the historical development of just about every CMA in some way, directly or indirectly. EVERY good traditional CMA understood it and used it as part of their training. And often this is still true today.

The other major influence on all CMA style and routines is over 3,000 years old and comes from military fighting methods, such as sword, knife, staff, and spear.
Its techniques and methods have shaped the empty hand routines of all CMA, including their strategy.

[goju]

lol i dunno you ever see kwai's photo shopped picture of the supposed "students" he taught? you could end up like them!
lol

[kwaichang]

Or like Goju a bruce lee side kick poser, this discussion is way over your head and it seems neither you or Sal can read, i never said I wouldnt teach him I said i wouldnt be a student of his. You are both morons , You throw something out there and dont know the answer yourself. As far as the last post where it sounds like a bruce lee thing, as Sal said well it was an exerpt from a Chinese Martial masters site. So I guess all Sal is is a good researcher. KC

[kwaichang]

Oh and BTW a friend of mine and I both SD practitioners visited a Traditional Chen Tai Chi and Pakua , Hsing ie school and the only corrections on our technigue and form we received was the change in the pattern of the form itself not the "basics". So I guess we werent too far off the mark. This guy was a student of a Chen Master trained in the Chen village BTW. KC

[kwaichang]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist
Please tell me:

1- What is the major tenet in common with all Chinese martial arts (CMA)?

2 - What is the main strategic points of CMA?

3 - What are the main important body mechanics rules of CMA?

4 - What is the most important things to note about CMA footwork?

This was brought up by Sal on the Shaolin Do thread, and I was just curious what everyones answers would be to these questions...

1. defense first, defense in the interim, defense at the end.

2. opening the door/arms of the opponent.

3. when you move, all of your body moves, hand, feet, waist, etc

4. change.


If this is the answer then it is so basic I wasnt able to think at such a simple level as it is too natural for me. As Funakoshi said dance without intent is simply dance not MA KC

[goju]

Oh and BTW a friend of mine and I both SD practitioners visited a Traditional Chen Tai Chi and Pakua , Hsing ie school and the only corrections on our technigue and form we received was the change in the pattern of the form itself not the "basics". So I guess we werent too far off the mark. This guy was a student of a Chen Master trained in the Chen village BTW. KC

sigh......

[BoulderDawg]

EVERY traditional CMA routine and style was based on an earlier one.

The oldest CMA is Shuai Jiao (what it is called today), whose ideas and methods are over 4,000 years old. It has influenced the historical development of just about every CMA in some way, directly or indirectly. EVERY good traditional CMA understood it and used it as part of their training. And often this is still true today.

The other major influence on all CMA style and routines is over 3,000 years old and comes from military fighting methods, such as sword, knife, staff, and spear.
Its techniques and methods have shaped the empty hand routines of all CMA, including their strategy.

Don't tell me or post on this board about it.

If you are so concerned that people are being cheated by SD then do something in person. As I already suggested go up to New York and talk with Thad Wong. Or better yet go down to Lexington and get in Master Leonard's face and demand that he stop cheating people!:D

[goju]

Or like Goju a bruce lee side kick poser, this discussion is way over your head and it seems neither you or Sal can read, i never said I wouldnt teach him I said i wouldnt be a student of his. You are both morons , You throw something out there and dont know the answer yourself. As far as the last post where it sounds like a bruce lee thing, as Sal said well it was an exerpt from a Chinese Martial masters site. So I guess all Sal is is a good researcher. KC

as far as anything goes no one here wants to be your student or wants you to be their student youre alost cause kwai

and your claims of how long you have been doing ma with many different masters are bunk because you would realize what a joke sd is if you have actually got around and studied with different martial artists

by the way when are you coming to colorado?

[goju]

Don't tell me or post on this board about it.

If you are so concerned that people are being cheated by SD then do something in person. As I already suggested go up to New York and talk with Thad Wong. Or better yet go down to Lexington and get in Master Leonard's face and demand that he stop cheating people!:D

what makes you think they wouldnt do anything other than call the cops and have sal removed from the school?

[kwaichang]

Wrong on both counts Goju I know EML and he wouldnt call the cops, an ambulance for Sal maybe but not the Cops. KC

[kwaichang]

sigh...... Are those two jpegs from your self discovery research?? KC

[kwaichang]

Next Month KC

[goju]

Next Month KC

when next month?

[goju]

Wrong on both counts Goju I know EML and he wouldnt call the cops, an ambulance for Sal maybe but not the Cops. KC

oh well then he has you too vouch for him so he must be deadly lmao!
after all your the guy who says hes gonna show up to all these different sparring matches and never does:D

[kwaichang]

I will post from a kinkos when I get there. We can meet then. I have never said I would spar or fight anyone to my knowledge. Except you. KC

[goju]

I will post from a kinkos when I get there. We can meet then. I have never said I would spar or fight anyone to my knowledge. Except you. KC

oh really? what about sifu ross?

are you gonna bring the rest of the kkk with you as well

dont worry ill slap you all around:D

[Judge Pen]

Sal, I agree and have for quite some time that SD is not pure CMA. So then, what's your beef? And you don't think you're an elitist? From the tone of your posts, only one whose movements display the core principals of CMA, as you identify them, apparently can fight. Everyone else is "zombies" or "dead men walking."

And I understand that stances are transitional movements. You can search my posts and find posts where I was saying the same thing as you. The horse stance is a foundational stance and trained for power and stability but it is nothing more than a snap-shot of a moment in time of fulid movement from one posture to another.

What if I called Shaolin-do "The' family kung tao"? Would you find that less offensive?

[Sal Canzonieri]

sigh......

Yes, they were being polite.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Don't tell me or post on this board about it.

If you are so concerned that people are being cheated by SD then do something in person. As I already suggested go up to New York and talk with Thad Wong. Or better yet go down to Lexington and get in Master Leonard's face and demand that he stop cheating people!:D

SD is a snake eating its own tail.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, I agree and have for quite some time that SD is not pure CMA. So then, what's your beef? And you don't think you're an elitist? From the tone of your posts, only one whose movements display the core principals of CMA, as you identify them, apparently can fight. Everyone else is "zombies" or "dead men walking."

And I understand that stances are transitional movements. You can search my posts and find posts where I was saying the same thing as you. The horse stance is a foundational stance and trained for power and stability but it is nothing more than a snap-shot of a moment in time of fulid movement from one posture to another.

What if I called Shaolin-do "The' family kung tao"? Would you find that less offensive?

Sure, I and others involved with Shaolin would find that less offensive.

The Way of Shaolin is false advertising.

Call it Chinese Karate even, some have.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Let me say one thing.

I've been in the hospital for like a month, I've been out a few weeks. I had major surgery in my abdomen, huge scar from them cutting through my abs and removing a whole section of material (food poisoning from bad fish infected a section of my intestines).
I've taken no pain killers since I have been home.

I am in serious constant sharp pain as it all heals up.

Yet, as I practice my routines, I feel no pain whatsoever, I even showed my surgeon at a follow up appointment, since he didn't want me to do any form of exercise or lifting for the next few months.

No pain when doing routines, why? Because of correct CMA body mechanics.

AND, I was told that from October last year to when I got this last operation (2nd) I was in danger of dying at any moment if there was an organ rupture and the material could have infected the whole inside area.
They said it was a miracle, since they didn't know things were that bad til they opened my a few weeks ago, and I had been doing my CMA teaching and practicing and jumping around on stage with my band. At any moment any of that could have caused the rupture.
BUT, thanks to all the Shaolin Neigong I practiced, nothing had happened. In fact some weird thing occurred inside that prevented it, even the surgeon called it a miracle.

But, I know it was because I practiced correct CMA body mechanics and core movement.

It wasn't "humility" that saved me. It was CMA.

Now I am healing with no pain killers and already out and about and driving and so on, only two weeks since the surgery.

Elitist? What does that even mean here? Why even say it? I think I am better than you because I know something you don't? To even say that means that you are projecting and feeling "inferior". It automatically says that you know it is something SD doesn't know. You don't have to feel bad about it, nor do you have to think that I think I am "better" than you. Especially since I have never said even once "I am better than you all because I know something you don't".
No, that is people feeling guilty or foolish projecting this on to my words"
When I have ever said anything to make people personally "feel hurt"?
It's a case of either "the truth burns" or "if the shoe fits, wear it".

All I have ever said is, "SD is not teaching correct CMA body mechanics and core principles". That's all my words said or meant.
That's it. Nothing personal. Nothing Elite. Nothing Un-humble.

So far no one has ever proven to me otherwise.
There's plenty of ex-SD that have agreed over the years though.

[goju]

lol what cracks me up the most are the rogue sd guys who think they by somehow leaving the sd pyramid scheme will make the crap they learned legit


you can dress up a donkey like a zebra but it still aint no zebra

[Sal Canzonieri]

lol what cracks me up the most are the rogue sd guys who think they by somehow leaving the sd pyramid scheme will make the crap they learned legit


you can dress up a donkey like a zebra but it still aint no zebra

Truth. Thanks to the internet, any one of these guys can say "hey, I quit SD, I want to find real CMA to master, can anyone recommend places?"
And tons of people will gladly help them out, even offer to teach them maybe to get their foundation in order; no one would make fun of them.

Would this thread ever had to have been started if SD wasn't questionable?
No, something impeccable would obviously not be a target.

[goju]

exactly this thread would not be anywhere this big nor would there be countless mile long threads all over martial art forums questioning sd legitimacy is there wasnt something going on

i could see one or two comments here and there but this?!? lol!

[bawang]

i think the shaolin do people have invested too much money time and effort, and friendship into their organiczation to leave it.

i dont blame sin the. he as a poor immagrant man trying to make it in america, trying to find the american dream, and he did it. sin the has 100000 times more money than me. if i was in his shoeds 50 ish years ago i would scam the sh1t out of his students too.

i think sin the really never expected the real shaolin to recover and be rebuilt, no one really did
a lot chinese martial arts for hundreds of years claim shaolin but have no proof or relation. the difference we live in the modern information times with internet so we can easily find the truth

[brucereiter]

All I have ever said is, "SD is not teaching correct CMA body mechanics and core principles". That's all my words said or meant.
That's it. Nothing personal. Nothing Elite. Nothing Un-humble.

So far no one has ever proven to me otherwise.
There's plenty of ex-SD that have agreed over the years though.

hi sal,

i think the above statements you made are incorrect.

i agree with the "haters" of sd / csc etc that much of what is offered and shown even by high ranking people in the system is lacking (thats nice for sucks) but there are a few exceptional people in the system. dont let us forget the history ... it is pretty crazy and the politics wow!!!!!! but despite all of that bull**** there is a bit of material that is great in my opinion. i value the tai chi chuan i was taught by the atlanta part of sd by gary grooms. you can see some examples of it on youtube. i would like to know what you think?

[bawang]

hi brucereiter

you youtube videos look pretty cool but they are taiji and xingyi. im confused :confused:

[Judge Pen]

hi brucereiter

you youtube videos look pretty cool but they are taiji and xingyi. im confused :confused:

SD teaches taiji and xingyi. Most don't do a good job teaching all of the details or really focusing on really making it work, but there are exceptions.

If SD is its own creature--an amolgamation of CMA, JMA and IMA--together to create a unique style, then how can you say it's principals are wrong? The material that comprises SD, like tai chi and xingyi, might not be correct as it would be if pure, but it is its own creature now. It has evolved into something else. Its different from what you know to be real tai chi or xingyi, and you can make a real argument to not call it tai chi or xingyi anymore, but it is our version. Call it The' family tai chi or xingyi.

SD emphasises short form--tan tui like forms--early ikn SD. Those principles, stances, footwork and methods of power-generation--permiate all of SD after that. Why, its the language in which every other form is taught. It is our context into learning every other style. when we learn new forms from new styles, this foundational material is still present in each of them. It looks different, feels different and works different to some degree. However, many of the core principles of tai chi are there.

But it works. It works differently and I understand people get upset with labels that are placed on it.

[kwaichang]

What we have here is Sal who wouldnt even follow MD's advise even though his life could be in jeopardy, BTW Sal just because something doesnt hurt doesnt mean it isnt causing damage to the site of the operation. They tell you not to move certain ways or lift for a reason. Stress on tissues causes increased scarring and csn later cause a proplem like fascia restrictions etc. No amount of CMA training will prevent that. With a rotator cuff repair healing has to occur that is the reason for the sling. Goju on the other hand just is like a flea irritating , also what is taught is dependent upon any one teacher, transition, stances heck no one teaches stances like Master Mullins etc. But like someone said and early on I do not question your knowledge of CMA , you are like this friend of mine he has read and saw so much he has learned alot. BTW did Mongolian Wrestling predate Shuaijao I read somewhere that is where both judo and Shuaijao had its origins?? So Sal what are the 5 sources of power in JMA and how are the demonstrated in SD?? KC

[brucereiter]

hi brucereiter

you youtube videos look pretty cool but they are taiji and xingyi. im confused :confused:


thanks ...
the csc atlanta where i learned have the "internal" and "external" programs split up so you can learn just "internal" or where you can learn "external" where at some level you would be taught internal too.

does that help the confusion?

[brucereiter]

If SD is its own creature--an amolgamation of CMA, JMA and IMA--together to create a unique style, then how can you say it's principals are wrong? The material that comprises SD, like tai chi and xingyi, might not be correct as it would be if pure, but it is its own creature now. It has evolved into something else. Its different from what you know to be real tai chi or xingyi, and you can make a real argument to not call it tai chi or xingyi anymore, but it is our version. Call it The' family tai chi or xingyi.


i just call the tai chi chuan practice i do a "variation of cmc tai chi chuan"

[Sal Canzonieri]

hi sal,

i think the above statements you made are incorrect.

i agree with the "haters" of sd / csc etc that much of what is offered and shown even by high ranking people in the system is lacking (thats nice for sucks) but there are a few exceptional people in the system. dont let us forget the history ... it is pretty crazy and the politics wow!!!!!! but despite all of that bull**** there is a bit of material that is great in my opinion. i value the tai chi chuan i was taught by the atlanta part of sd by gary grooms. you can see some examples of it on youtube. i would like to know what you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9tQ70MQI-w

There are fundamental things wrong shown.
Yang teachers would cringe. Two giant body mechanics movements incorrect.


This is like karate Yang TJQ. it compromises what makes Yang and all TJQ work in the first place. And, like I said about my four questions concerning SD not knowing the answers to them, the answers to each one of my four questions is violated (simply not done) in the movements shown.

Here's some remedial lessons (seriously, please, can you even see why this is correct Yang and his is fundamentally wrong):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNStVR6BANQ

Groom's not only got the posture incorrect, but the transitional internal movements are done wrong, for the wrong reason, and missing the the transitional movement that makes it work in the first place, its too external.

Look at real Yang TJQ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97kMU3WgmtE (this starts with brush knee first)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pna9ajZHKY (TRADITIONAL YANG from the Yang family itself - at 2:44 look at the brush knee postures and movements)

Okay, at this point, I give up, I don't want to discuss SD at all.

Do everything wrong, I don't care.

[BoulderDawg]

Okay, at this point, I give up, I don't want to discuss SD at all.

Do everything wrong, I don't care.

This guy is really no different that some crazy guy preaching hellfire and damation on the streets.

"If you don't follow the one true way you will burn in a lake of fire."

He says he's not going to discuss it but wait and see he'll be back with a post before the end of the day. CMA is his religion and if people don't follow it........:D

I would still like to see the guy get in Master Leonard's face.

[brucereiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9tQ70MQI-w

There are fundamental things wrong shown.
Yang teachers would cringe. Two giant body mechanics movements incorrect.


This is like karate Yang TJQ. it compromises what makes Yang and all TJQ work in the first place. And, like I said about my four questions concerning SD not knowing the answers to them, the answers to each one of my four questions is violated (simply not done) in the movements shown.

Here's some remedial lessons (seriously, please, can you even see why this is correct Yang and his is fundamentally wrong):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNStVR6BANQ

Groom's not only got the posture incorrect, but the transitional internal movements are done wrong, for the wrong reason, and missing the the transitional movement that makes it work in the first place, its too external.

Look at real Yang TJQ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97kMU3WgmtE (this starts with brush knee first)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pna9ajZHKY (TRADITIONAL YANG from the Yang family itself - at 2:44 look at the brush knee postures and movements)

Okay, at this point, I give up, I don't want to discuss SD at all.

Do everything wrong, I don't care.

sal,

i asked you to address my videos. you made comments about other peoples videos, did you even watch mine?.

what fundamental things are wrong with my tai chi chuan as shown on my youtube videos?

dont give up. you are the person who made blanket statements. please back them up.

[bodhi warrior]

Some of the things Sal says about our taichi is the same thing yang zhenduo and fu zhongwen said about cheng man ching's form. From a yang family perspective they thought his form was way off. But look what William c c chen has done with it. Point is it doesn't matter what Sal thinks. If it works in self defense,it works.

[brucereiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9tQ70MQI-w

There are fundamental things wrong shown.
Yang teachers would cringe. Two giant body mechanics movements incorrect.


This is like karate Yang TJQ. it compromises what makes Yang and all TJQ work in the first place. And, like I said about my four questions concerning SD not knowing the answers to them, the answers to each one of my four questions is violated (simply not done) in the movements shown.

Here's some remedial lessons (seriously, please, can you even see why this is correct Yang and his is fundamentally wrong):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNStVR6BANQ

Groom's not only got the posture incorrect, but the transitional internal movements are done wrong, for the wrong reason, and missing the the transitional movement that makes it work in the first place, its too external.

Look at real Yang TJQ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97kMU3WgmtE (this starts with brush knee first)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pna9ajZHKY (TRADITIONAL YANG from the Yang family itself - at 2:44 look at the brush knee postures and movements)

Okay, at this point, I give up, I don't want to discuss SD at all.

Do everything wrong, I don't care.

this is the channel i was talking about.
this is me ... i would like to hear your comments. look objectively.

http://www.youtube.com/user/brucereiter
some yang tai chi practice.
http://www.youtube.com/user/brucereiter#p/u/9/ynXWQYo5ZFY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvaC2h1X5qw

[Sal Canzonieri]

sal,

i asked you to address my videos. you made comments about other peoples videos, did you even watch mine?.

what fundamental things are wrong with my tai chi chuan as shown on my youtube videos?

dont give up. you are the person who made blanket statements. please back them up.

okay because you asked:

To start with, you don't have whole body movement, you move your arms independent of your dantian. Rule #1 of TJQ broken. In essence, you are just waving your hands and arms, no full body connection, no deep root, no emanation from the dantian to perform the movements, and lots more. TJQ is a process, your videos don't show it being done. And you are doing the same things wrong as I said that Grooms was doing in his video.

Not too bad for a beginner though, keep working.

here's some old timers you can study and hopefully you can see the difference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq2uHsUkwA8 (Yang TJQ)


SD never taught the foundational Songshan CMA sets (northern) that Shaolin derived internal martial arts developed from (TJQ, XY, BG), so I can't expect SD people to understand and know it.

Plus SD teaches modern times version of the TJQ sets, not the original long forms, nor the important training forms that TJQ people learn first. Nor the neigong sets that are necessary too.

[BoulderDawg]

okay because you asked:

To start with, you don't have whole body movement, you move your arms independent of your dantian. Rule #1 of TJQ broken. In essence, you are just waving your hands and arms, no full body connection, no deep root, no emanation from the dantian to perform the movements, and lots more. TJQ is a process, your videos don't show it being done. And you are doing the same things wrong as I said that Grooms was doing in his video.

Not too bad for a beginner though, keep working.

here's some old timers you can study and hopefully you can see the difference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq2uHsUkwA8 (Yang TJQ)


SD never taught the foundational Songshan CMA sets (northern) that Shaolin derived internal martial arts developed from (TJQ, XY, BG), so I can't expect SD people to understand and know it.

Plus SD teaches modern times version of the TJQ sets, not the original long forms, nor the important training forms that TJQ people learn first. Nor the neigong sets that are necessary too.

What did I tell you. :D

You know that people told Ty Cobb he could never hit because his stance was wrong!:D

[Sal Canzonieri]

Some of the things Sal says about our taichi is the same thing yang zhenduo and fu zhongwen said about cheng man ching's form. From a yang family perspective they thought his form was way off. But look what William c c chen has done with it. Point is it doesn't matter what Sal thinks. If it works in self defense,it works.

No, its not the same, this shows your ignorance.

Cheng Man Ching didn't do what Grooms does immediately at :44 in to that video I linked to. And William CC Chen, who I know, never would ever do that either, nor the other things shown.

Plus, Cheng Man Ching style?
Ha, the guy was an alcoholic, and a proven fraud in Taiwan. Do the research.
Just because people started with CMC taiji (since in the early days there wasn't anyone else teaching in the USA openly yet), doesn't mean that they didn't continue to learn more from others after their first exposure. William CC Chen learned from other people too, much better people. And, he already had practiced CMA for a very long time and could adjust whatever was foundational incorrect to bring it back into alignment.

[Judge Pen]

here's some old timers you can study and hopefully you can see the difference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq2uHsUkwA8 (Yang TJQ)



Sal, are you supposed to lean that far forward when doing Yang Tai Chi?

[BoulderDawg]

I'm just wondering if this guy consider his form of Kung Fu (or any other form for that matter) as an actual art.

[Sal Canzonieri]

What did I tell you.

The truth burns the brain washed zombies.

Since your SD comes from fake sources, here's a Hong Kong movie quote from "return of the 36 chambers" that fits:

"Your kung fu is no good, you must go back to Shaolin".


Ha.

[Judge Pen]

The truth burns the brain washed zombies.

Since your SD comes from fake sources, here's a Hong Kong movie quote from "return of the 36 chambers" that fits:

"Your kung fu is no good, you must go back to Shaolin".


Ha.


Did you miss my question? It seems to me, a novice, that the master in the video you posted is leaning too far forward. It seems that this would make it easier to unbalance, but that's to my untrained eye. I was asking for your comment.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, are you supposed to lean that far forward when doing Yang Tai Chi?

There's different heights depending how deep your stances are.
Like in Bagua Zhang, there is high, middle, and low basins.

Plus, he's not actually leaning, there's a direct line from his heel to his head, his totally rooted.
SD doesn't understand these things, hence they don't teach it.

Also, depends on when and where the Yang comes from. Yang from Yang Lu Chan's home village is older (more like Wu taiji, who were Yang Lu Chan's first students) and before it was modified for the Manchurians in Beijing.

Regardless of angle or height, the movements are all done correct, regardless of sub-style or variations. All the rules of Taiji, that make it work in the first place, are never broken.

Check out that guys channel on YouTube, he has dozen's of videos of all the most well known and best Taiji teaches from the past, you can see that regardless of style or sub-style none of the fundamentals are ever broken.

[Judge Pen]

There's different heights depending how deep your stances are.
Like in Bagua Zhang, there is high, middle, and low basins.

Plus, he's not actually leaning, there's a direct line from his heel to his head, his totally rooted.
SD doesn't understand these things, hence they don't teach it.

Also, depends on when and where the Yang comes from. Yang from Yang Lu Chan's home village is older (more like Wu taiji, who were Yang Lu Chan's first students) and before it was modified for the Manchurians in Beijing.

Regardless of angle or height, the movements are all done correct, regardless of sub-style or variations. All the rules of Taiji, that make it work in the first place, are never broken.

Check out that guys channel on YouTube, he has dozen's of videos of all the most well known and best Taiji teaches from the past, you can see that regardless of style or sub-style none of the fundamentals are ever broken.


I see that there is a direct line from his rear heel to his head, but that doesn't make one rooted. SD does teach these things Sal and I do understand them. I was also an offensive lineman in high school and I understand very well how easily it is to unbalance someone if their weight is forward. You can have a heel down, but still have too much weight going forward which is what it looks like to me in the video.

You want to see good tai chi principals in action, watch offensive line play in the passing game. The understand root, sensitivity, redirection and "peng"

[Sal Canzonieri]

What did I tell you. :D

You know that people told Ty Cobb he could never hit because his stance was wrong!:D

And, if you thought that was something other than beginner Taiji being shown by that guy, you are sure in a sorry lame state of delusional psychosis.

He's being sincere and working hard on improving his form, I commend the guy for doing that.

But you are just plain ignorant and have been so completely brainwashed, especially since you have a vested interest in keeping up the SD charade, that there is no use bothering with you.
Why butt in to any discussion? You never provide anything constructive to say.

Just baby talk, babbling boob stuff.

[brucereiter]

okay because you asked:
thank you.



To start with, you don't have whole body movement, you move your arms independent of your dantian. Rule #1 of TJQ broken.


maybe for a moment here and there whole body movement is broken.
my arms are not moving independently of my center (dan tian)
one way to really feel that this is true would be to do some push hands... i come to nyc often are you there? i understand you had surgery etc so n=dont take that as a challenge or anything i am just saying if you felt what i do i am sure your comments would change.



In essence, you are just waving your hands and arms, no full body connection, no deep root, no emanation from the dantian to perform the movements, and lots more.


i disagree with that as a blanket statement. at times in the practice videos i show i am sure i make many "mistakes" and can improve on many things. i am sure i am not simply waving my arms in the air as you say.



TJQ is a process, your videos don't show it being done. And you are doing the same things wrong as I said that Grooms was doing in his video.

examples?



Not too bad for a beginner though, keep working.
lol you are too nice... do you practice tai chi chuan?



here's some old timers you can study and hopefully you can see the difference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq2uHsUkwA8 (Yang TJQ)

nice video. can his students demonstrate self defense ability? i have "touched hands" with some people from that line ... i did not feel much in the way of actual self defense skills but they do win alot of gold medals in the forms competitions.



SD never taught the foundational Songshan CMA sets (northern) that Shaolin derived internal martial arts developed from (TJQ, XY, BG), so I can't expect SD people to understand and know it.

i would say most ima schools do not teach northern shaolin sets. saying that is insulting to almost any ima person.




Plus SD teaches modern times version of the TJQ sets, not the original long forms, nor the important training forms that TJQ people learn first. Nor the neigong sets that are necessary too.

yes speaking for the yang tai chi chuan as the example it is pretty modern. it is a variation of cheng man chings tai chi.

man there are so many different "niegong" methods taught ... come on almost every school i have visited teach a different niegong method.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I see that there is a direct line from his rear heel to his head, but that doesn't make one rooted. SD does teach these things Sal and I do understand them. I was an offensive lineman in high school and I understand very well how easily it is to unbalance someone if their weight is forward. You can have a heel down, but still have too much weight going forward which is what it looks like to me in the video.

well, then it's an optical illusion. his dantain is doing all the work and he is using whole body movement and his root is deep as a result.

That old master was famous for his ability to use taiji quan perfectly for self defense.

Wu style is even more inclined. And they are some of the very best taiji players around, especially for self defense.

[brucereiter]

Did you miss my question? It seems to me, a novice, that the master in the video you posted is leaning too far forward. It seems that this would make it easier to unbalance, but that's to my untrained eye. I was asking for your comment.

in my opinion that type of lean is good for throws... maybe his intention os more throwing? i dont know though

[Judge Pen]

well, then it's an optical illusion. his dantain is doing all the work and he is using whole body movement and his root is deep as a result.

That old master was famous for his ability to use taiji quan perfectly for self defense.

Wu style is even more inclined. And they are some of the very best taiji players around, especially for self defense.

I saw a lot that I liked, and he looked rooted throughout his entire movement until the end and he overextened.

Maybe it is an optical illusion. I was just drawing a line from his heel to his head and comparing that from a verticle line from hi lead heel. His knee is often well ahead of his toe (another "no-no" as far as my experience is concerned). But its hard to tell these things from videos. As Bruce said, the only way you can tell is to push hands and feel these things for yourself.

[Sal Canzonieri]

in my opinion that type of lean is good for throws... maybe his intention os more throwing? i dont know though

Well, sure, yes, ONE application of that movement is throwing someone over the leg, for sure. All CMA has levels of use: basic striking, joint locking, throwing, and the most advanced is attacking with just slight movements.

[Judge Pen]

in my opinion that type of lean is good for throws... maybe his intention os more throwing? i dont know though

That's true, and depends on the movement of energy in relation to the location of the opponent. But I didn't get that sense from the video. Again, it's an observation, I could be way off.

[BoulderDawg]

And, if you thought that was something other than beginner Taiji being shown by that guy, you are sure in a sorry lame state of delusional psychosis.

He's being sincere and working hard on improving his form, I commend the guy for doing that.

But you are just plain ignorant and have been so completely brainwashed, especially since you have a vested interest in keeping up the SD charade, that there is no use bothering with you.
Why butt in to any discussion? You never provide anything constructive to say.

Just baby talk, babbling boob stuff.

I'm simply not going to be dragged into a discussion about what's right and wrong...forget it. That's like a buddhist trying to explain his religion to a hard core bible thumper.....can't be done.

However I am interested in if you consider your Kung Fu an art. From what I've seen here your idea of "real" shaolin KF is to somehow carbon copy what they did 1500 years ago. Not only is it totally impossible to know how these people did their forms but who wants to duplicate anything. Art is freedom of expression and creativity. If you goal is to mimic someone then that is in no way art.

[brucereiter]

SD doesn't understand these things, hence they don't teach it.

come on sal, do not lie. there are enough negative things about sd you can address without resorting to making things up.




Check out that guys channel on YouTube, he has dozen's of videos of all the most well known and best Taiji teaches from the past, you can see that regardless of style or sub-style none of the fundamentals are ever broken.

he has some very cool videos.
i have seen plenty of "arm waving" from notable masters of tai chi chuan.
ehhh. i have seen "masters" make "mistakes" here and there. its not a big deal to me.

[Judge Pen]

come on sal, do not lie. there are enough negative things about sd you can address without resorting to making things up.




he has some very cool videos.
i have seen plenty of "arm waving" from notable masters of tai chi chuan.
ehhh. i have seen "masters" make "mistakes" here and there. its not a big deal to me.

I've also seen masters fight and resort to arm-waiving too. well-respected lineages, or perfect form movement does not, by itself, make good kung fu.

[tattooedmonk]

I can tell all of you that many of the so called "body mechanics" of CMA are off. There is either proper body mechanics or improper body mechanics, plain and simple...

From what I understand there is thing called "modern science" that substantiates these things now, not just what some masters regergitated from previous masters........

NO ONE has ever said that SD was pure CMA , because we know it is not, but the largest part of the material and training is.....CMA forms.

The way it is taught, practice and passed down may not be the way that everyone does CMA material , but we arent trying to do it the way everyone else does .....if it works, then how can it be wrong???

We all understand that you have a lot to offer Sal , but the way you are going about it could be considered offensive by some people.

Like I said , maybe you should try a different method:D

BTW I have NEVER had any problem with using or applying what I have learned from SD!!

[tattooedmonk]

come on sal, do not lie. there are enough negative things about sd you can address without resorting to making things up.




he has some very cool videos.
i have seen plenty of "arm waving" from notable masters of tai chi chuan.
ehhh. i have seen "masters" make "mistakes" here and there. its not a big deal to me.everyone makes mistakes....period. I have seen more mistakes by noteable famous masters than anyone else I have ever watched.....BFD

Sal is an elitist......:eek::D

[Judge Pen]

Sal is a historian. My best friend is a historian. They tend to romanticize the past as some type of ideal. At least in my experience.

It's like when I posted some of my fight videos on you-tube. One guy e-mailed me to discuss my fight. He, a wu shu practitioner, was critical because my fight did not look like kung-fu. I was punching, kicking and throwing, but it didn't look as crisp as he would like to see. His counter-example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG366AHzI2U.

[BoulderDawg]

Sal is a historian. My best friend is a historian. They tend to romanticize the past as some type of ideal. At least in my experience.


When I was in Amsterdam I came across a street vendor who was painting replicas of Vah Gogh's painting......beautiful work and to my untrained eye I could not tell the difference. However there is no art involved. If there is then I guess my copy machine is a grand master!

But you are right. Some of us see and hear things that we want to be true.

[bawang]

thanks ...
the csc atlanta where i learned have the "internal" and "external" programs split up so you can learn just "internal" or where you can learn "external" where at some level you would be taught internal too.

does that help the confusion?

is a shaolin do a style or a organization? most styles dont take forms from other styles for no reason

i think you guys taking all those forms from other styles is strange

if you dont mind taking forms why dont you guys learn some forms from the real shaolin in songshan china

[kwaichang]

Sal do you do forms EXACTLY like your teachers same angles etc. If you say yes you are lying that would imply you are perfect , if no then you arent doing it RIGHT. So you may be close . BTW i have seen tai chi at a SD school as good at the rules / vids as you referenced. I dont know who you have seen but I would love to see a vid of yours so I can see Perfect form KC

[tattooedmonk]

everyone makes mistakes....period. I have seen more mistakes by noteable famous masters than anyone else I have ever watched.....BFD

Sal is an elitist......:eek::DSorry ...and a fairly good historian:p;):D

[tattooedmonk]

Sal is a historian. My best friend is a historian. They tend to romanticize the past as some type of ideal. At least in my experience.

It's like when I posted some of my fight videos on you-tube. One guy e-mailed me to discuss my fight. He, a wu shu practitioner, was critical because my fight did not look like kung-fu. I was punching, kicking and throwing, but it didn't look as crisp as he would like to see. His counter-example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG366AHzI2U.HAHAHA Would you consider your fighting style to be like "KUNGFU" or "KUNGFU" like?? :eek::D

[tattooedmonk]

is a shaolin do a style or a organization? most styles dont take forms from other styles for no reason

i think you guys taking all those forms from other styles is strange

if you dont mind taking forms why dont you guys learn some forms from the real shaolin in songshan chinaSome would say it is both.

THis is how I understand it ...

It is an organization of schools that warehouse , teach, practice many CMA styles and forms.

NOT all of them are considered to be Shaolin by many.

The "Standardized" shaolin forms, other than some of the Internal forms, are not taught or practiced within the ORG/SYSTEM.

Because of the history, methods of teaching as well as the size of the ORG. come under great scrutiny.

Many of the stories about the SYSTEM origins have been the largest topic of conversation.....

Some would say it is Sin The` style!

What else do you want to know??

[Judge Pen]

is a shaolin do a style or a organization? most styles dont take forms from other styles for no reason

i think you guys taking all those forms from other styles is strange

if you dont mind taking forms why dont you guys learn some forms from the real shaolin in songshan china

bawang, from my research I believe that there were several teachers at Sin The's school in indonesia that taught their own material. I also believe that Ie was a forms collector himself and that he traveled extensivly picking up what he could. I think that is why there are so many bits a pieces of different systems that have been taught and blended at SD. Which makes it a patchwork quilt and not cut from whole cloth. But the quality of the sticthing is the real issue that I'm concerned with.

[Judge Pen]

HAHAHA Would you consider your fighting style to be like "KUNGFU" or "KUNGFU" like?? :eek::D

If it works then its kung fu. I don't care what it looks like.