Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[sean_stonehart]

HAHAHA Would you consider your fighting style to be like "KUNGFU" or "KUNGFU" like?? :eek::D

After being on the receiving end of his fists... straight forward. Even drunk.:cool:

[brucereiter]

is a shaolin do a style or a organization? most styles dont take forms from other styles for no reason

i think you guys taking all those forms from other styles is strange

if you dont mind taking forms why dont you guys learn some forms from the real shaolin in songshan china

i would think "shaolin do" is a organization and a style. i am not really sure.
i only studied a small portion of shaolin do's internal material.

i can only speak for myself. i have not learned any shaolin forms at all. i have no interest.i found an individual who could teach me some things i wanted to learn (tai chi chuan) and self defense.

i have not the means or the interest to go to china and go the the shaolin temple to learn martial arts.

i do think people like shi deyang are fantastic martial artists but they practice something different to what i practice. i am not interested in that material although it is very cool.

[tattooedmonk]

After being on the receiving end of his fists... straight forward. Even drunk.:cool:Is that a good thing??:p How drunk??:eek::D

[tattooedmonk]

I have been known to be a fan of drunken style:p;):eek::D

[Judge Pen]

After being on the receiving end of his fists... straight forward. Even drunk.:cool:

Drunk and with a bad knee. The SoCo killed the pain though....

[Sal Canzonieri]

bawang, from my research I believe that there were several teachers at Sin The's school in indonesia that taught their own material. I also believe that Ie was a forms collector himself and that he traveled extensivly picking up what he could. I think that is why there are so many bits a pieces of different systems that have been taught and blended at SD. Which makes it a patchwork quilt and not cut from whole cloth. But the quality of the sticthing is the real issue that I'm concerned with.

Look, it's very simple:

People know that Sin The's / SD routines came from books and videos because all public versions of routines are MARKED with purposefully implanted incorrect postures here and there or missing some postures or added in postures. To ensure that people who learned solely from books can be discovered.
So, the SD routines show these marks. Hence, people who learned from actual teachers know that those particular routines are being done just like the marked routine in the book or video.

A lot of Sd routines are labeled as Shaolin, but they aren't at all and were never taught in any Shaolin temple or afflicated temple or school. For example, all his Hua Quan routines are from Shandong province schools, and clearly show the marks that were implanted in the books published on these routines.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal do you do forms EXACTLY like your teachers same angles etc. If you say yes you are lying that would imply you are perfect , if no then you arent doing it RIGHT. So you may be close . BTW i have seen tai chi at a SD school as good at the rules / vids as you referenced. I dont know who you have seen but I would love to see a vid of yours so I can see Perfect form KC

This so completely shows ignorance that is almost laughable if it wasn't so sad.

Perfect mimicking of angles is not the point.

The point is full transmission of truthful time tested information so that one can practice efficiently and effectively with correct body mechanics and core movements and CMA principles and strategies.
As long as the teacher's are doing things right, and they have taught their students, both will be doing things according to CMA concepts and movements.
No "exact" angles are required, that doesn't even make sense. But I can see how you can say that if you don't understand what CMA even is.

The SOLE reason that SD routines are weird is that karate is the base for the movements taught and then it is applied to CMA routines that they got from books and videos.

It isn't good JMA karate and it isn't good CMA. It's just a mess.
Shodokan karate developed historically in completely different ways and do things for completely different reasons from CMA. BUT, great Okinawan karate, Shorinji Kempo, and other karate styles are southern CMA anyway, I have never seen any great Okinawan or Japanese karate routines or masters do things that violated CMA principles and body mechanics at all.

AMERICAN fake karate, yes, I have seen do stupid things as far as body mechanics go.
Often they compensate when fighting by just plain old fighting harder, using brute strength or sheer determination. They have to expend so much more energy because they don't know why or how to do things correctly. There is no art nor science to what they do.

I'm pretty sure Sin The learned some great Indonesian martial arts (IMA) and has kept this for himself and lets SD do these fake CMA routines with karate movements.

[kwaichang]

Impossible to prove no one does a form as they were taught and people put their own mark on things. Sal do you do your forms as you were taught them verbatim, if you answer yes you are a liar as that would imply you are perfect. If no then you are no different than the worst of the SD players and you are merely practicing. Practice also means trying toward better. Btw just for the heck of it I read your 1st 3 articles on the web and you say nothing different as what I said to your 4 questions. Including the Kua etc. KC

[kwaichang]

Well I can only hope you are the one who said angles as I didnt. Concepts are subjective and open to interpretation. and can be applied to anything like dance as you said. BTW i hope you are a better MA than you are a Musician , I listened to that mess from the Frankenstein group, total mess/noise. But then that is subjective much like your opinions. KC
BTW you should stick to research one of the premises of the training you cited was Conditioning and wwhat I saw in the members of your band I would say a few too many Hotdogs. with chili

[kwaichang]

You dare to even talk about Shoto kan, you know little about it or you wouldnt say SD has it. KC Karate is not even hinted at in SD sorry. BTW you never answered my questions what are the 5 sources of power in JKarate???? anyone KC

[Judge Pen]

Look, it's very simple:

People know that Sin The's / SD routines came from books and videos because all public versions of routines are MARKED with purposefully implanted incorrect postures here and there or missing some postures or added in postures. To ensure that people who learned solely from books can be discovered.
So, the SD routines show these marks. Hence, people who learned from actual teachers know that those particular routines are being done just like the marked routine in the book or video.

A lot of Sd routines are labeled as Shaolin, but they aren't at all and were never taught in any Shaolin temple or afflicated temple or school. For example, all his Hua Quan routines are from Shandong province schools, and clearly show the marks that were implanted in the books published on these routines.

Well that should be simple enough to point out, right? What are the marks and where are examples of it occuring in SD. If you're just going to say "people know" without documentation of the marks and where they show up in the form, then that opinion does not have credibility.

By the way, where are they transcripts from that lawsuit in Kentucky? Or was it Tennessee? Or do you know.

You're a historian. Please cite your sources.

If you can't then please say this is what you believe but do not know.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well I can only hope you are the one who said angles as I didnt. Concepts are subjective and open to interpretation. and can be applied to anything like dance as you said. BTW i hope you are a better MA than you are a Musician , I listened to that mess from the Frankenstein group, total mess/noise. But then that is subjective much like your opinions. KC
BTW you should stick to research one of the premises of the training you cited was Conditioning and wwhat I saw in the members of your band I would say a few too many Hotdogs. with chili

You are full of baloney in everything you ever say.

I'm 50 years old. My band has been playing for 20 years, we have over 100 records out on 40 different labels from all over the world. We play all over the world and played large festivals with many famous bands, and we do very well. Not too many bands have achieved the level of success we have. And, many famous bands cite our band are one of their favorite bands.
Your personal musical tastes have nothing to do with whether people from all over the world like our music or not. Even my previous bands were successful and have been featured in music documentaries. I've been on tv and in films and interviewed in documentaries.

I've written many books on many topics - all published, published much artwork, leaned martial arts since 1975, wrote music for 100 records, have songs on tv shows and film sountracks, and I've done much more, even raised a family.

I've done more than you ever will do.

Again, only you are idiotic enough to make this personal.

Why? Because the TRUTH BURNS. You surely must be fitting in those shoes I laid out there and they surely must fit, are else none of this stuff wouldn't be hurting you so much.

Brainwashed Zombie.

Dead Man Walking.

That's all you will ever be.

The most you can hurl at me is that I am not "humble".

Oh, boo hoo, little kitty SD karate fu man has his feelings hurt and feels inferior.

[Sal Canzonieri]

You dare to even talk about Shoto kan, you know little about it or you wouldnt say SD has it. KC Karate is not even hinted at in SD sorry. BTW you never answered my questions what are the 5 sources of power in JKarate???? anyone KC

You don't know how to read too?

I didn't say anywhere that SD has Shotokan, please I would never disparage Shotokan that way, hah hah. SD has fake American Karate Fu, just like you.

[BoulderDawg]

Are you guys happy now?:D

You've just gave him what he wants!

[Judge Pen]

Sal

Show me one SD's hua forms (you tube or whatever) that have the "phoney marks" in them. Show me documentation of the marks that are "phony." Easy enough right? You said they are there. Documentation please.

And let's not get into ad hominem attacks. You're 50 years old for pete's sake, aren't we above name-calling?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well that should be simple enough to point out, right? What are the marks and where are examples of it occuring in SD. If you're just going to say "people know" without documentation of the marks and where they show up in the form, then that opinion does not have credibility.

By the way, where are they transcripts from that lawsuit in Kentucky? Or was it Tennessee? Or do you know.

You're a historian. Please cite your sources.

If you can't then please say this is what you believe but do not know.

I never kept any copies of transcripts, I read them on Usenet, a long time ago.
And whether it was Kentucky or Tennessee, I don't remember, it was too long ago. Look, plenty of people know it happened, and it's a fact. You do the research, I don't have the time or care to. Sorry.

I'm certainly not going to point out where the marks are in the routines.
That's the whole point of marks, isn't it? People spend lots of time and money going to real teachers who teach real forms, why should I betray them?

No disrespect to you, you seem like a decent and rational person, who is just trying to sincerely have a discussion about things. I understand where you are coming from, so please you understand.

There's plenty of threads here in this forum where we all have discussed marks in routines, for years now. I'm not the only person that has ever posted about it.
And in other forums at other sites, I also saw other people mentioning that marks were shown in all the non-Shaolin SD sets that must have come from books. I haev a vast library of martial arts books, the marks are easy to see if you know the forms.

[themeecer]

And let's not get into ad hominem attacks. You're 50 years old for pete's sake, aren't we above name-calling?

Yeah, you big poo poo head. (I'm not 50 yet so I'm not above it yet. ;) )

[Judge Pen]

I never kept any copies of transcripts, I read them on Usenet, a long time ago.
And whether it was Kentucky or Tennessee, I don't remember, it was too long ago. Look, plenty of people know it happened, and it's a fact. You do the research, I don't have the time or care to. Sorry.

I'm certainly not going to point out where the marks are in the routines.
That's the whole point of marks, isn't it? People spend lots of time and money going to real teachers who teach real forms, why should I betray them?

No disrespect to you, you seem like a decent and rational person, who is just trying to sincerely have a discussion about things. I understand where you are coming from, so please you understand.

There's plenty of threads here in this forum where we all have discussed marks in routines, for years now. I'm not the only person that has ever posted about it.
And in other forums at other sites, I also saw other people mentioning that marks were shown in all the non-Shaolin SD sets that must have come from books. I haev a vast library of martial arts books, the marks are easy to see if you know the forms.
See Sal, I have done the research on the lawsuit and you're wrong on that point, yet you talk like you know it to be so. That's why I'm asking you to back up what you say.

Point out one mark-just one-that shouldn't betray any trust should it. Or link me to a site where they did point them out? I understand the concept behind them. Heck, I've seen schools steal SD's unique material (shocker I know). I know teachers that mix up routines at demonstrations so the form can't be learned from a video. I understand the concept, I'd just like to see and example.

Do you know Yi Lu Hua Quan? Have you seen SD's version? Please provide me an example of a move that's "marked" that is present in SD's form?

[sean_stonehart]

Is that a good thing??:p How drunk??:eek::D

Not really... he blacked it a bit right before we were heading out for the evening to a bar there in K'ville.

How drunk... 1/5 of SoCo Black in about 30 minutes...

[kwaichang]

I said music is subjective heck I think U2 sucks too. But I like Mozart, go figure. So Sal what about 1st road of Hua I would like to know if there is a mark there, also how do you differentiate from a screwed up move or a mark. ?? Now this is an honest question . Can you answer it or are you going to BS your way out of it?? You say SD forms arent the real deal you site marks show us just one and we will kowtow to your superior ability to find and hit the mark haha. So what say you? With your vast library , but please explain how it is a mark and not just performer error KC

[One student]

Well that should be simple enough to point out, right? What are the marks and where are examples of it occuring in SD. If you're just going to say "people know" without documentation of the marks and where they show up in the form, then that opinion does not have credibility.

By the way, where are they transcripts from that lawsuit in Kentucky? Or was it Tennessee? Or do you know.

You're a historian. Please cite your sources.

If you can't then please say this is what you believe but do not know.

To second JP: I've heard the "learned it all from books and videos" before, but in all the years that has been around, I've never seen anyone cite me one name or show me one page of any such book, or video. In fact, when someone has tried to cite one, a time or two GM Sin was teaching the material BEFORE the book was published (as I recall). I'd still like to see all (or one of) those "books" I've heard so much about.

[One student]

I never kept any copies of transcripts, I read them on Usenet, a long time ago.
And whether it was Kentucky or Tennessee, I don't remember, it was too long ago. Look, plenty of people know it happened, and it's a fact. You do the research, I don't have the time or care to. Sorry.

I'm certainly not going to point out where the marks are in the routines.
That's the whole point of marks, isn't it? People spend lots of time and money going to real teachers who teach real forms, why should I betray them?

No disrespect to you, you seem like a decent and rational person, who is just trying to sincerely have a discussion about things. I understand where you are coming from, so please you understand.

There's plenty of threads here in this forum where we all have discussed marks in routines, for years now. I'm not the only person that has ever posted about it.
And in other forums at other sites, I also saw other people mentioning that marks were shown in all the non-Shaolin SD sets that must have come from books. I haev a vast library of martial arts books, the marks are easy to see if you know the forms.

But, when you are citing other posts and threads, and they just repeat the same rumors and innuendos, also without proof, people start thinking, it must be true. You must be part politician, thinking if the same thing is said over and over it becomes the truth. But where is book? The video? And, how do we know the book or video came first? How does someone know it didn't come from the same source GM Sin got his instruction on it, not the other way around?

I do my best to debunk charlatans for a living. I just don't take "believe me, me and all my freinds know its true" at face value.

I don't care about a "mark." I can see a book and see if it is the form I know or not, and go from there. Although, more often than not, they ALL have variations. Even those multiple videos Sal posted of "true" tai ji quan: in each one each "Master" was doing the postures with different positions, timing, angles, combinations, and in different sequence, than the other one. In fact, I have yet to see one "good" practioner do it just like another one. Wrong? No. Different? Yes. NOT the same thing. One copying the other, or all from a common source? I wasn't there, I have no time machine, I don't know and never will. Neither will anyone else, other than the source itself.

I may be no one and may know nearly nothing. But I know at one point in Sal's posts, I was thinking, I'm going to take a couple days off, go to his school (with his permission), and ask for that "one day" of lessons that he says will reveal how much time has been wasted in other schools. I also have to say, although I doubt it means anything, that after the name calling and bickering, I don't think I would waste my time, that is not an attitude, especially in a teacher, I would want to have given to me, or give to someone else.

[BoulderDawg]

But,I was thinking, I'm going to take a couple days off, go to his school (with his permission), and ask for that "one day" of lessons that he says will reveal how much time has been wasted in other schools. I also have to say, although I doubt it means anything, that after the name calling and bickering, I don't think I would waste my time, that is not an attitude, especially in a teacher, I would want to have given to me, or give to someone else.

I have no interest in going to his church...err school!

And they call SD a cult!:eek:

[goju]

the yang tai chi i was taught at sd would point to it be lifted off of a book

they had us do really loud inhaling exhaling( which ive never seen any noteworthy tai chi master do ) they didnt show us any of the principles behind tai chi they just had us do the forms and even then they were done way too fast

[Leto]

Here's some more answers to the questions, from another forum


1- What is the major tenet in common with all Chinese martial arts CMA)?

Well they all come from China, they all have (to varying degrees) Kicking, Punching, Qinna and Shuaijiao

2 - What is the main strategic points of CMA?

to render the other guy incapable of fighting

3 - What are the main important body mechanics rules of CMA?

Different styles, different rules (if there are actually any rules that is) also IMA is different form EMA

First, a dicussion of mechanics was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so I must say nothing. And secondly, you must be a CMA person for the rules to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the rules are more what you'd call guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome to CMA


4 - What is the most important things to note about CMA footwork? Please tell me:

It varies form style to style.

Bagua is not like Xingyiquan which is not like taiji which is not like Shaolin which is not like Wing Chun which is not like Sanshou.



1- My 'insert style' is better than yours.
2- Same universal strategery found in all martial arts. ;-)
3- Move from dan tien & keep body alignment.
4- Each style has different footwork principles. For example, Tai Chi does not double weight. While Hung Ga footwork is built upon a strong horse stance.



1- What is the major tenet in common with all Chinese martial arts (CMA)?

My lineage is better than your lineage.

2 - What is the main strategic points of CMA?

To prove my lineage is better than your lineage.

3 - What are the main important body mechanics rules of CMA?

To turn my nose up in disgust when your lineage is mentioned, and smile in your face and then hurt you if you question my lineage.

4 - What is the most important things to note about CMA footwork? Please tell me:

The founder of your lineage had no feet, so of course my lineage has better footwork.

[kungfujunky]

There's different heights depending how deep your stances are.
Like in Bagua Zhang, there is high, middle, and low basins.

Plus, he's not actually leaning, there's a direct line from his heel to his head, his totally rooted.
SD doesn't understand these things, hence they don't teach it.

Also, depends on when and where the Yang comes from. Yang from Yang Lu Chan's home village is older (more like Wu taiji, who were Yang Lu Chan's first students) and before it was modified for the Manchurians in Beijing.

Regardless of angle or height, the movements are all done correct, regardless of sub-style or variations. All the rules of Taiji, that make it work in the first place, are never broken.

Check out that guys channel on YouTube, he has dozen's of videos of all the most well known and best Taiji teaches from the past, you can see that regardless of style or sub-style none of the fundamentals are ever broken.

Im sorry but after watching the video you are wrong. This guy is focused to much on his low stance work then the actual martial aspect of tai chi. He is leaning to far forward consistently. if he were to do push hands with anyone that understands the basics of rooting he would end up on his ass.

Sal you are a windbag and a pompous old man. You have yet to back up anything you have stated except to keep blowing smoke.

pfftt. glad i havent been paying attention to this thread for a while. back to training

[arinathos.valin]

Q: How many tai chi masters does it take to change a light bulb?

A: 11... one to change the light bulb, and ten to stand around and say he's doing it wrong...

From my own perspective as an ex-SDer...I can remember being exposed to Chen Tai Chi concepts of ground path, peng, spiralling, and full body motion and being pretty stunned at what I was missing. I also remember watching a version of Jiang Bagua on youtube that left me flabbergasted about what was missing in my own form from SD.

Having said that, the internal forms I learned at SD allowed me to retool what I had learned a lot faster than if I was starting from scratch, and in an indirect way, the training I received allowed me to pick up on some of the things that I WAS missing in my training. I'll always be grateful to SD for that, at least.

I remember posting a while back (make that a few hundred pages back) that some people are very indignant with SD because they make claims about authenticity that these people feel SD has no right to make. If you're teaching what you believe is the real thing, and someone comes along with a substandard product, you're gonna get hot under the collar about it if you have any passion for what you're doing. Although that post pertained to someone else, I think Sal falls in that same category.

Sal is obviously skilled, and knows his stuff, but I can't help think that ego is driving him as well. After all, he's already said his piece, and has said that 'he doesn't care', but he still keeps coming back. He's already asked questions on CMA multiple times, but doesn't give the answers. He's not trying to educate you guys... he just keeps using that question to hit you guys over the head with it... and it makes him feel superior in the process that you STILL don't know the answer.

I disagree with Sal about Cheng Man Ching...Robert Smith holds CMC in the highest regard, and he wasn't afraid of calling BS when he sees it. In addition, Nigel Sutton in his book Searching for the Way talks about his teachers in Singapore who were disciples of CMC, and he has no doubts about the efficacy of Cheng style in a fighting situation, based on his experiences with them.

Cheng did things differently than his predecessors. Does that make it bad? If you're judging strictly by standards of Yang style, I suppose that one could make the argument that he wasn't that good. My impression is that he took the Yang style and adapted it to his own strengths... namely an extraordinary sensitivity to movement and balance, and yielding. The resulting style was something that he was extremely good at, and if Nigel Sutton is to be believed, other people have agreed with him.

All of the different offshoots of tai chi (Yang, Wu, Sun) and bagua (Gao, Cheng, etc) come from a base set of moves that are then adapted by particular people for their own strengths and weaknesses. They then become different styles. One style isn't necessarily better than another, but one style may be better for an individual person, based on their own physical gifts and talents. If you're grading another style based on the precepts of your own, you might find that other style inferior... but then practitioners of that other style may be trying to do different things with their own bodies that you're not taking into account.

To a certain extent, though, I take Sal's point. If you combine different principles from different fighting arts, you don't necessarily get the best synthesis. Bruce's youtube clip on M. Grooms explanation of brush knee is a case in point. I see a lot of hip twisting, forward motion of the body, and driving of the legs, but I've also been on the receiving end of a brush knee 'push' that felt like I'd been hit by a truck... and the person doing it had very different internal body mechanics that didn't involve the large gross motor movements of the arms and legs. Sal may be saying that the combination of styles in SD make for inferior body mechanics because those principles aren't acting in conjunction with one another.

[brucereiter]

the yang tai chi i was taught at sd would point to it be lifted off of a book

they had us do really loud inhaling exhaling( which ive never seen any noteworthy tai chi master do ) they didnt show us any of the principles behind tai chi they just had us do the forms and even then they were done way too fast
i have seen some very poor tai chi chuan from the soards schools so i am not surprised.

[tattooedmonk]

here's some more answers to the questions, from another forum


1- what is the major tenet in common with all chinese martial arts cma)?

Well they all come from china, they all have (to varying degrees) kicking, punching, qinna and shuaijiao

2 - what is the main strategic points of cma?

To render the other guy incapable of fighting

3 - what are the main important body mechanics rules of cma?

Different styles, different rules (if there are actually any rules that is) also ima is different form ema

first, a dicussion of mechanics was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so i must say nothing. And secondly, you must be a cma person for the rules to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the rules are more what you'd call guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome to cma


4 - what is the most important things to note about cma footwork? Please tell me:

It varies form style to style.

Bagua is not like xingyiquan which is not like taiji which is not like shaolin which is not like wing chun which is not like sanshou.



1- my 'insert style' is better than yours.
2- same universal strategery found in all martial arts. ;-)
3- move from dan tien & keep body alignment.
4- each style has different footwork principles. For example, tai chi does not double weight. While hung ga footwork is built upon a strong horse stance.



1- what is the major tenet in common with all chinese martial arts (cma)?

My lineage is better than your lineage.

2 - what is the main strategic points of cma?

To prove my lineage is better than your lineage.

3 - what are the main important body mechanics rules of cma?

To turn my nose up in disgust when your lineage is mentioned, and smile in your face and then hurt you if you question my lineage.

4 - what is the most important things to note about cma footwork? Please tell me:

The founder of your lineage had no feet, so of course my lineage has better footwork.lmao....!!

[Baqualin]

Well I see some things never change.....go away and all h@ll breaks loose.
A few things.
I'm the one that said GM Ie only taught Chinese....he would not even teach Indonesian's and GMS was very clear on this!!!!!

I still think the pictures came from someone in Hiangs camp who is just stirring up sh!t!

It has always been a known fact that were multiple teachers in Indonesia....some of them are listed on Hiangs site.

People visit other schools all over the world.....doesn't mean they were taught anything.

I agree with JP regarding GMS's handling of the western schools......smart business and the right thing to do.

SD internal system....we know and teach the principals....whole body movement is the very basic's of any internal system...from the spine!! Coiling...silk reeling....peng...jing....compressing....sinking and proper body mechanics from the toes up is taught (you still get the arm wavers....some people just don't get it). I agree with Bruce, touch hands with him before you judge (Bruce was even critical of EML and I will say the same to him...touch hands with him before you judge) we have touched hands with people all over the world and always leave with mutual respect....anybody that was at our visit to Chen village will know what I'm talking about.

Most Yang stylist practice for health and not martial ability.....they would not fair very well in a real fight. There's only a handful who really get it (including SD). Even some of the so called great masters would have their a$$es handed to them! As far as leaning forward you never see that in the Chen style....they can fight and are very well rooted.

The CMC form would have been very easy for GMIe to pick up...it has always been popular in Taiwan and surrounding areas.

China is a extremely large country full of mysticism and so many styles (each one is the one) who know's what the f@ck is going on.

Sal I highly respect your work and what you have uncovered in your studies......maybe you should include Indonesia and other countries in your research to follow the path of CMA and it's evolution


Best to all...have fun on this crazy thread.
BQ

[Iron Palm]

The CMC form would have been very easy for GMIe to pick up...it has always been popular in Taiwan and surrounding areas.



Hello all,

I'm glad this was brought up because I am confused about the inclusion of the CMC form in the SD curriculum. I'm working on reading my way through this thread, but I've only finished about half of it, so if this has already been covered then please refer me to the page(s).

I don't understand how Grandmaster Ie would have picked up this form, given some cursory research I have performed.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Man-ch%27ing, Cheng Man Ching did not formalize his abbreviated yang form until 1946, in Sichuan (http://www.chengmanching.com/biotimeline.html says 1938). According to http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html, GM Ie fled China in 1911, presumably to avoid the penalty for leaving "a mountain of dead soldiers". Please forgive my ignorance of Chinese history, but I would assume that being a wanted man in one province would have meant the rest of China was off-limits to him as well, so it seems unlikely he would have picked up the form there.

Again, according to wikipedia and chengmanching.com, CMC did not move to Taiwan (to teach his abbreviated form) until 1949. Shaolingrandmaster.com, however, says that GMT was born in 1943, and began training with GM Ie at the age of 6 (1949). Based on what I've read so far on this board, GMT's website, and the CSC Training manual, I get the impression that the Chung Yen school was already fairly well established by the time GMT began training there, so it seems unlikely to me that GM Ie would still be traveling around "collecting" forms (keep in mind Bandung is ~2,300 miles from Taiwan). However, if he were continuing to travel and train, he would only have another 6 years to do so, as "at age 12 [. . .] [Grandmaster The] dedicated eight hours a day to private instruction with Grandmaster E [. . .]." Even if one assumes the CMC form became so ubiquitous as to make its way from Taiwan to Bandung in that time frame, I don't see how GM Ie (or anyone else) could learn, train, and master a totally new system while dedicating so much time daily to teaching someone else.

It just doesn't seem plausible that GMT got this form from GM Ie.

I accept my own ignorance on the topics of Tai Chi, Taiwanese/Indonesian/Chinese History, and martial arts in general, so I am posting this as a request for information. How did this form come to be in the SD curriculum? Do those of you with more experience have any light to shed on this issue?

When did GMT begin teaching this form? I recall reading very early on in this thread the contention over the 24-combined form and its history, and I believe someone stated GMT learned 24 from a friend(?) in Indonesia and wanted to teach it because of its popularity. Is the situation with CMC Yang the same?

I ask because in SD, or at least in CSC SD, Tai Chi seems to be given a heavy emphasis (24 required for 1st black, push hands required for all levels of black, 6 tai chi forms required at 5th), and GMT himself has said in his book and at seminars that proficiency in pa kua, hsing i, and tai chi are prerequisites for liu hsing...

[BoulderDawg]

http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4246&d=1197049613


Did I miss this? Is that suppose to be The'?

[Lokhopkuen]

Let me say one thing.

I've been in the hospital for like a month, I've been out a few weeks. I had major surgery in my abdomen, huge scar from them cutting through my abs and removing a whole section of material (food poisoning from bad fish infected a section of my intestines).
I've taken no pain killers since I have been home.

I am in serious constant sharp pain as it all heals up.

Yet, as I practice my routines, I feel no pain whatsoever, I even showed my surgeon at a follow up appointment, since he didn't want me to do any form of exercise or lifting for the next few months.

No pain when doing routines, why? Because of correct CMA body mechanics.

AND, I was told that from October last year to when I got this last operation (2nd) I was in danger of dying at any moment if there was an organ rupture and the material could have infected the whole inside area.
They said it was a miracle, since they didn't know things were that bad til they opened my a few weeks ago, and I had been doing my CMA teaching and practicing and jumping around on stage with my band. At any moment any of that could have caused the rupture.
BUT, thanks to all the Shaolin Neigong I practiced, nothing had happened. In fact some weird thing occurred inside that prevented it, even the surgeon called it a miracle.

But, I know it was because I practiced correct CMA body mechanics and core movement.

It wasn't "humility" that saved me. It was CMA.

Now I am healing with no pain killers and already out and about and driving and so on, only two weeks since the surgery.

Elitist? What does that even mean here? Why even say it? I think I am better than you because I know something you don't? To even say that means that you are projecting and feeling "inferior". It automatically says that you know it is something SD doesn't know. You don't have to feel bad about it, nor do you have to think that I think I am "better" than you. Especially since I have never said even once "I am better than you all because I know something you don't".
No, that is people feeling guilty or foolish projecting this on to my words"
When I have ever said anything to make people personally "feel hurt"?
It's a case of either "the truth burns" or "if the shoe fits, wear it".

All I have ever said is, "SD is not teaching correct CMA body mechanics and core principles". That's all my words said or meant.
That's it. Nothing personal. Nothing Elite. Nothing Un-humble.

So far no one has ever proven to me otherwise.
There's plenty of ex-SD that have agreed over the years though.

Sorry to hear about you health problems Sal and I hope you feel better soon.

Frankly I am surprised that a person as knowledgeable and well read as yourself is even here debating with these guys on the validity of their practice.

Most of these fellows seem conscious free thinkers who take pride in what they've practiced and I admire their persistence in debate even against some of the most bitter, ugliest detractors.

Personally I'd like to see more vids chronicling the SD forms and fighting practices so that I might understand better their connection to Shaolin.


If a man is fulfilled by his practice is there anything really left to say?


peace

[themeecer]

Baqualin, I may swing by your internal class in Lexington on Saturday. I held our first internal only class this past Tuesday and I want to pick up some pointers. What are you all currently working on? I'd like to see the progression of brand new internal students in your classes someday.

I have had reservations about teaching our internal separately and am still warming up to the idea. I explained to our new students that this was a work in progress and the curriculum order was still being fleshed out. They assumed that was a call for them to put input into it because one student told me he wasn't interested in the martial arts part of it ... he just wanted to be artistic in waving his arms around. Another student wanted me to abandon my ideas of teaching the class at our gym and instead teach at the Silver Ladies group in the local Y. Another who had our tai chi several years ago was frustrated that what I was doing didn't look like the form she had learned, I explained that I knew that ... we were doing the warm ups. So with the patience of Job, I smiled and continued on.

I really do care about my students and want to improve my ability at conveying the material in the most effective manner. I am always open to new drills and training ideas. I wish this was a medium where we could discuss things like this instead of arguing about gi's and lineage 24/7.

[Leto]

Hello all,

I don't understand how Grandmaster Ie would have picked up this form, given some cursory research I have performed.


It just doesn't seem plausible that GMT got this form from GM Ie.

How did this form come to be in the SD curriculum? Do those of you with more experience have any light to shed on this issue?

When did GMT begin teaching this form? I recall reading very early on in this thread the contention over the 24-combined form and its history, and I believe someone stated GMT learned 24 from a friend(?) in Indonesia and wanted to teach it because of its popularity. Is the situation with CMC Yang the same?



I believe this was asked at least once before on this thread. If anyone knows the
answer, they aren't telling. There are folks who know when he first started teaching it, but no one has said where or from whom he learned it.
I also wonder how the more modern forms, like CMC yang style short form and Jiang Rong Qiao's original bagua form, got into the system. I also would like to know just what branch of hsing i we have, and what it's lineage is. I don't think we'll ever get the answers. GMT is probably the only one who knows, and I imagine anyone who has access to him isn't going to ask such questions.
The impression I've been given of the general attitude towards training back in the early days of Gm The's teaching is that most students didn't care about the details of what they were learning, like what it was called or where it came from, they were really all about training hard and fighting. Few people asked questions, and information was rarely offered up. Knowledge was not preserved by the first generation of students in the US, so there isn't anything to pass down to the later students. At this point, I think most people still in the system feel it would be rude to ask for information from GM The that he didn't choose to give up front.
That's an optimistic point of view, in my opinion, that GM The would have freely given information about where and from whom the forms came, and we'd have a more detailed history now, if his first students had just been more interested in asking and learning those things. Maybe it would just take someone with access to GM The to ask if they can interview him about the historic details of the various forms, and the teaching that took place at the Bandung school, for posterity's sake. This would put to rest many questions people have about the system and their training. Is this going to happen? I don't think so.

[Judge Pen]

I think the assumption is that The' learned everything from Ie. that has probably been explicitly said on website in the past (I'm not sure). I don't buy that. My understanding (and by understanding I mean unsubstantiated oral history) is that among the many teachers at the Indonesian school one of them was an internal specialist. Perhaps that individual brought these forms to SD.

BQ help me out, do you recall that teacher's name. I recall him being referenced when the' was talking about the history of our fan form. I need to pull out that video and watch it.

I was under the impression that many of the collegues traveled. Maybe taiwan?

[SDJerry]

You know what’s odd about this is everyone theorizes about Sin The's background, making assumptions, and forming their own opinions like he is no longer alive and not a resource. Everyone has their own idea of how the system evolved and its origins. Even people who have been in the system for a long time have their own opinion and others seem to put more weight on it due to length of service as you might say hehehe

What's wrong with this? Sin The is still alive and could easily correct everyone with his story. It's his style, so his accounts should take precedence over everyone else. The problem? No one believes the 'entire' story... only parts. They view it as part of a clue to a bigger story that "no one will ever know for sure". Points that have been clearly documented on his site are tossed out with others still trying to find the 'real' story.

IMO, this is what kills the style. The fact that anyone who does a little research or a simple google search will find all these issues with the history. If the story of the art where not there, people would pay closer attention to the content. They're just not getting that far because the story turns them off.

[kwaichang]

From what GMT has told me personally and or from his EM students this is the way it is.
GGMIe traveled through out china prior to his leaving China, prior to that he learned from SKTJ, He moved to Indonesia and taught Chinese only.
GMT became a student at about 6 years old prior to that he trained for about a year with a Sand Burn Teacher from all kinds of warped stories have sprung.
during his latter training years with GGMIe he was introduced to a very good internal stylist {name} ??? JP will tell ya. This is where he learned alot of his Internal stuff from what I am told and have learned.
During his seminars he gives the history part fact and part Legend to the students, he mentions names , dates and style off shoots. Etc.
I have never wanted for history and have been told by GMTh'e that we trace our art to the Shaolin Temple(S) . Not that they came from there, they were just worked on and perfected at one of them. Also I haved learned that much of SD came from military sources, ie: a General this or that that sought refuge in the temple or temples.
When given the hand outs I cross reference the History section of the forms in the hand out and short of a year or two here or there they have been on the money. As far as Tai Chi 24 it is rather modern but traces it self indirectly to Yang Tai Chi and Thus to Chen and thus to the temple. I have read that the Chen Villiage where it was practiced is rather close to a Shaolin Temple and that often the Monks would train in that art.
SD comes from the Temples and China in this way and through time the art has changed much like Funakoshi and his Karate art has transformed into the JKA Karate known today. They dont even look the same as they did in 1950. SD is much the same. I blame this on interpretation , application, and EGO of the teachers that teach. Well I hope none of you found this too boring. While some feel the art lacks this or that I love it I can fight with it and I truly feel that what we do now is a good and Historic thing with good intent from GMTh'e. Thanks KC

[SDJerry]

I have never wanted for history and have been told by GMTh'e that we trace our art to the Shaolin Temple(S) . Not that they came from there, they were just worked on and perfected at one of them.

If you say you trace the art to the Shaolin Temple(s), you are in fact saying that is where it came from. Or shall I say you are implying, because most people consider tracing it back as drawing a line from present time "directly" to the temple. Now you can say that the line branches to defend your first satement, but then I would argue an accurate statement should be "We trace the art indirectly to the Shaolin Temple(s)". The latter statement doesn't carry the same weight as the original.

This is my problem with a lot of the story telling. I always felt there was a lot of trickery there. It's a lot of twisting statements and generalizations that don't really say a lot of anything. If you can't trace directly to the Shaolin temples, why even bring them up? Most martial arts can trace back to them in some manner.

[kwaichang]

SD Jerry that is just semantics, Direct, indirect what ever, the point is GMTh'e never said it came from, but that it was worked on there and became Shaolin with work and time. Much of what he has said was that alot came from other arts introduced and worked on there. Even the so called original ones were introduced there at some time. But I know what I heard and have researched etc BTW the history on the Tai Chi 64 traces it to Chang San Feng. KC

[Baqualin]

Baqualin, I may swing by your internal class in Lexington on Saturday. I held our first internal only class this past Tuesday and I want to pick up some pointers. What are you all currently working on? I'd like to see the progression of brand new internal students in your classes someday.

I have had reservations about teaching our internal separately and am still warming up to the idea. I explained to our new students that this was a work in progress and the curriculum order was still being fleshed out. They assumed that was a call for them to put input into it because one student told me he wasn't interested in the martial arts part of it ... he just wanted to be artistic in waving his arms around. Another student wanted me to abandon my ideas of teaching the class at our gym and instead teach at the Silver Ladies group in the local Y. Another who had our tai chi several years ago was frustrated that what I was doing didn't look like the form she had learned, I explained that I knew that ... we were doing the warm ups. So with the patience of Job, I smiled and continued on.

I really do care about my students and want to improve my ability at conveying the material in the most effective manner. I am always open to new drills and training ideas. I wish this was a medium where we could discuss things like this instead of arguing about gi's and lineage 24/7.

Please do!!
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

NAME A.K.A. SPECIALTY
Previously posted by BQ


Ie Chang Ming (Tie Chang Sang Ren) Herbs & Acupuncture, Iron Bone/palm/shin, Staff, Sword (broad & Jian) Daggers Spear Monkey Drunken Immortals, Se Ch’uan (Snake) Tai Chi Pa Kua Hsing Ie Lu Hsing

Liu Su Peng (Sen Pien Sow) Tai Peng (bird System), Chain Whips Rope Dart

Je Jou (Shiao) Fu Long Fist , Hua, Mantis, Tiger

*Su Te’ Tju Ta (Little Brother) Mien Ch’uan (Cotton Fist), Chi Qong Meditation , Ban Lian Hua Kuen

Tju Ta 1988 Tai Chi festival in mainland China did Dbl Mulan Fan

**Qui Kwong (Liem Qui Qwong) Herbs & Acupuncture Chin Na, Shuai Chao
**Tjie Tiong (Djie Tiong) Tai Chi, Pa Kua Hsing Ie ,Ground Dragon

[BoulderDawg]

Just wondering:

Some good points were made about The' and the fact that he's never told a completely factual story.

I was just wondering if anyone (totally independant from SD) has never traveled to Bandung to try to track down some facts.

And what about these masters that were just mentioned? Surely were would still be a few students of there's around.

In any case, I would just be satisfied to see some type of government records (Did Ie pay taxes, did he own property, did he drive a car, did he register to vote, was there a death certificate issued) to prove that he even existed.

[Judge Pen]

Just wondering:

Some good points were made about The' and the fact that he's never told a completely factual story.

I was just wondering if anyone (totally independant from SD) has never traveled to Bandung to try to track down some facts.

And what about these masters that were just mentioned? Surely were would still be a few students of there's around.

In any case, I would just be satisfied to see some type of government records (Did Ie pay taxes, did he own property, did he drive a car, did he register to vote, was there a death certificate issued) to prove that he even existed.

Was Ie his real name?

I think I remember Mas Judt referenced Qui Kwong as having a lineage students in Inodnesia.

I'll tell you what, if I win the lottery, I'll travel to Indoneisa and do the research myself. :D

[BoulderDawg]

Was Ie his real name?

I think I remember Mas Judt referenced Qui Kwong as having a lineage students in Inodnesia.

I'll tell you what, if I win the lottery, I'll travel to Indoneisa and do the research myself. :D

I honestly don't think it would be rocket science to research. It's only been 40 years since he died...or 30 something...they can't even agree on that.

But if he ran a school then there should still be plenty of students of his out there. What surprises me is that there isn't someone in the martial arts community in Bandung who was interested enough to ask a few questions. I know I would be if I heard there was some guy in Indonesia claiming he had all of this lineage from Boulder.:D

[arinathos.valin]

KC,
The Yang tai chi long form that SD has in its repertoire, just like all tai chi forms, can theoretically trace its lineage back to the semi-mythical Zhang Sang Feng, just as the 'tai chi by committee' short form that SD uses. Whether Zhang really existed is a matter of some debate. More importantly, the SD tai chi long form can be traced DIRECTLY back to Cheng Man Ching's variation of Yang Style. Cheng's form is almost exactly that of the SD form, and it's different than the original 108 Yang long form.

[kwaichang]

Watched 3 versions of Tai Chi of Chings origins they were not what I learned in SD KC

[brucereiter]

Watched 3 versions of Tai Chi of Chings origins they were not what I learned in SD KC

do you mean "cheng man ching"?

this is a video of cheng man ching. are you telling me that this is not the form we do in sd?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl2mvyjHYS0

can you show a example of what the tai chi you learned in sd is like for reference?

the cmc form is the only one of many many different yang tai chi chuan forms that matches up. ??????

[Baqualin]

do you mean "cheng man ching"?

this is a video of cheng man ching. are you telling me that this is not the form we do in sd?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl2mvyjHYS0

can you show a example of what the tai chi you learned in sd is like for reference?

the cmc form is the only one of many many different yang tai chi chuan forms that matches up. ??????

You are correct!

[Baqualin]

I honestly don't think it would be rocket science to research. It's only been 40 years since he died...or 30 something...they can't even agree on that.

But if he ran a school then there should still be plenty of students of his out there. What surprises me is that there isn't someone in the martial arts community in Bandung who was interested enough to ask a few questions. I know I would be if I heard there was some guy in Indonesia claiming he had all of this lineage from Boulder.:D

All of the original teachers except for one has passed on....if you really want to know more you can start with the White Lotus Society in Bandung....GMIe & GMS are very well known in Bandung circles.
BQ

[Baqualin]

I honestly don't think it would be rocket science to research. It's only been 40 years since he died...or 30 something...they can't even agree on that.

But if he ran a school then there should still be plenty of students of his out there. What surprises me is that there isn't someone in the martial arts community in Bandung who was interested enough to ask a few questions. I know I would be if I heard there was some guy in Indonesia claiming he had all of this lineage from Boulder.:D

Do you really thing that they care?
BQ

[Baqualin]

NAME A.K.A. SPECIALTY
Previously posted by BQ


Ie Chang Ming (Tie Chang Sang Ren) Herbs & Acupuncture, Iron Bone/palm/shin, Staff, Sword (broad & Jian) Daggers Spear Monkey Drunken Immortals, Se Ch’uan (Snake) Tai Chi Pa Kua Hsing Ie Lu Hsing

Liu Su Peng (Sen Pien Sow) Tai Peng (bird System), Chain Whips Rope Dart

Je Jou (Shiao) Fu Long Fist , Hua, Mantis, Tiger

*Su Te’ Tju Ta (Little Brother) Mien Ch’uan (Cotton Fist), Chi Qong Meditation , Ban Lian Hua Kuen

Tju Ta 1988 Tai Chi festival in mainland China did Dbl Mulan Fan

**Qui Kwong (Liem Qui Qwong) Herbs & Acupuncture Chin Na, Shuai Chao
**Tjie Tiong (Djie Tiong) Tai Chi, Pa Kua Hsing Ie ,Ground Dragon

Thanks...tired of posting things over and over.
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

Now you people are talking history and this is much more interesting.

Look, I apologize for being pompous and all, and I would like to call a truce.

I'd like to help you guys trace the SD forms and their origins. I have almost all this info in my archives. I started doing this for someone from SD way back in the 1980s.

For example, the Meteor Fist routine. I have archive info on that super rare routine. I know some of you were asking me last year if I had info on that set. I do have it.

If you want my help, I'm willing to do so.
We can put aside our differences in the name of research, yes?

Show me a routine and I will provide you with reference material that contains that routine that you can use to compare with what you do.
Perhaps it will help you to brush up on the exact movements and postures, in case over time they got mixed up or some bits got lost.
You can PM me that link if you don't want everyone else to see it.

Let me know, thanks.

[themeecer]

If you want my help, I'm willing to do so.
We can put aside our differences in the name of research, yes?

Show me a routine and I will provide you with reference material that contains that routine that you can use to compare with what you do.
Perhaps it will help you to brush up on the exact movements and postures, in case over time they got mixed up or some bits got lost.
You can PM me that link if you don't want everyone else to see it.

Let me know, thanks.

Sal, now that's what I am talking about. I agree 100%.

I have started doing that for some of the forms that I teach. Sometimes I prefer the way we do it, sometimes I like how other people do it. I try to retain both versions in my head. Some of my students who have trained previously at other SD schools do the same. Instead of letting them get discouraged when they have to relearn a form I simply point out that it gives them more variations and ways to think about the form. Sometimes the changes are simple like leaving out a temple block here or there, other times the changes are more drastic.

Ok ... I'll throw one out here. SD's walking the circle, in Pa Qua, is like walking through mud, stepping high off the ground and placing the foot back down while maintaining a 'hollow' in the foot. Most other schools do a sliding step as they walk the circle. I like doing both versions, depending on the speed I am doing the form in. Seen any other groups do this?

PS. I am sitting here in my Cobra Kai Johnny costume I just got done piecing together for Halloween and I am totally feeling like the king of the demo.

[tattooedmonk]

Now you people are talking history and this is much more interesting.

Look, I apologize for being pompous and all, and I would like to call a truce.

I'd like to help you guys trace the SD forms and their origins. I have almost all this info in my archives. I started doing this for someone from SD way back in the 1980s.

For example, the Meteor Fist routine. I have archive info on that super rare routine. I know some of you were asking me last year if I had info on that set. I do have it.

If you want my help, I'm willing to do so.
We can put aside our differences in the name of research, yes?

Show me a routine and I will provide you with reference material that contains that routine that you can use to compare with what you do.
Perhaps it will help you to brush up on the exact movements and postures, in case over time they got mixed up or some bits got lost.
You can PM me that link if you don't want everyone else to see it.

Let me know, thanks.I would like to see what you have ...oh and I forgive you for being a pompous @$$....:D:p

Do tell us about the Meteor Fist routines.....

[brucereiter]

Show me a routine and I will provide you with reference material that contains that routine that you can use to compare with what you do.
Perhaps it will help you to brush up on the exact movements and postures, in case over time they got mixed up or some bits got lost.
You can PM me that link if you don't want everyone else to see it.

Let me know, thanks.

hi sal,

:)

i dont know if you have reference to hsing i material but how about looking into this.
which lineage did it come from? how did it come to sin the'?

of coarse meteor fist would be interesting to hear about...

here is a clip of me practicing the form (with a small bit edited out ...)
http://www.youtube.com/user/brucereiter#p/u/11/n1fpOAkhIEo

below are the names i was given when i learned the form.

Linkage of the 5 Roads
U hsing Lein Huan Chien


Green dragon comes Out of the water
Yuing Lung Chu Sue’



1 Getting Ready Position
Yi Pei se


2 Forward Right Crushing Hand
Tjin pu yu pen chien


3 Retreat left Crushing Hand
Tue’ pu chuo pen chien




Black Tiger Comes Out of the Cave
He Hu Chu Tung



4 Scoop forward, Right Crushing Hand
Sue’n Pu yu Pe’ng chien





White crane Spreads the Wings
Pai Ho Lian che’




5 Retreat, Embrace the Fist
Tue’ Pu pao Chien





Wildcat Climbs the Tree
Ye’ mao san su



6 Forward, Cannon Fist
Tjin Pu pao Chien



7 Retreat, Left Chop Hand
Tue’ Pu Chuo Pi Chang



8 Foot close together, right stopping fist
Ao Pu yu Chan Chien
Note: It also includes thee left stopping fist that preceded


9 Jump (or step forward) double chop hand
Tiao Pu Suang Pi Chien







Wildcat back up the tree
Ye’ mao tao snag su




10 Forward, Right Crushing Hand
Tjin (Chin) Pu yu peng chien



11 Turn the Body Position
Hue’ sen se



12 Closing Position
Sou Se

[brucereiter]

Ok ... I'll throw one out here. SD's walking the circle, in Pa Qua, is like walking through mud, stepping high off the ground and placing the foot back down while maintaining a 'hollow' in the foot. Most other schools do a sliding step as they walk the circle. I like doing both versions, depending on the speed I am doing the form in. Seen any other groups do this?



the gao bagua i am learning uses a heel/toe step almost like normal walking.

[Mas Judt]

Hey guys, I have a new comic coming out from Moonstone Books:

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This biz is all about pre-orders - so please, please, if you dig the preview, pre-order a monthly subscription now at your favorite comic shop!!

[bodhi warrior]

Now you people are talking history and this is much more interesting.

Look, I apologize for being pompous and all, and I would like to call a truce.

I'd like to help you guys trace the SD forms and their origins. I have almost all this info in my archives. I started doing this for someone from SD way back in the 1980s.

For example, the Meteor Fist routine. I have archive info on that super rare routine. I know some of you were asking me last year if I had info on that set. I do have it.

If you want my help, I'm willing to do so.
We can put aside our differences in the name of research, yes?

Show me a routine and I will provide you with reference material that contains that routine that you can use to compare with what you do.
Perhaps it will help you to brush up on the exact movements and postures, in case over time they got mixed up or some bits got lost.
You can PM me that link if you don't want everyone else to see it.

Let me know, thanks.

Let me extend my hand in friendship.
While I disagree with some of your post, I do agree with some of them.
Like material coming from books and videos or other sources. I personally believe that most if not all of the material sin the' taught after 1990 was not learned during his time training at the chung yen school. I have no evidence this is just an opinion. Dragon pakua, 8 animal pakua, chen taichi, the 5 animal form, could have all been learned through books or videos.
But I do believe that the core material, the material that matches hiang's is material learned in indonesia. And I believe that hiang's complete list of material was learned in indonesia. Again this is my opinion.

[arinathos.valin]

Thanks, Sal... looking forward to learning from you...

I STILL have no idea where the SD 8 animal bagua form comes from...

[themeecer]

i dont know if you have reference to hsing i material but how about looking into this.
which lineage did it come from? how did it come to sin the'?

of coarse meteor fist would be interesting to hear about...

here is a clip of me practicing the form (with a small bit edited out ...)
http://www.youtube.com/user/brucereiter#p/u/11/n1fpOAkhIEo



Bruce,

Your form looks very different than the way I was taught. I'm not being critical, I'm just surprised at the differences. Some of it may be due to your personal nuances, and some due to how it has transformed from teacher to teacher.

[Leto]

The reason the same questions keep coming up is because they have never been answered satisfactorily. We have very general information about some of the other teachers from Bandung, but no specifics about the origins of most of the forms. If Ie Chang Ming traveled all over China collecting forms before he fled to Java, and didn't tell GM The anything more specific, we might never find out exactly where they came from. But I at least would like to find closely similar forms and styles to compare with and thereby improve my understanding of the different methods employed.
If there was no mention of history or lineage on the sites and in the schools at all, people would still question, maybe even moreso. At least, some people would. I understand that there are some people who don't care at all, they don't care if the material has a 1000 year old lineage or if Sin The made it all up himself, they just like to work out and fight. That's fine for them, but there are some of us who are interested in other aspects of the martial arts, and learning the history is a part of understanding the style. I've attended four or five of GM The's seminars, and he never gave specific history to anything. Maybe he only gives such information to students in Kentucky, since KC says he always tells the history? The notes we get are a list of the postures in chinese and rough english translations, I've never been handed anything regarding a form's history. The only stories I've heard him tell are about legendary figures like Wang Lang or the eight immortals, or about some unnamed great ancestors of his who had interactions with shaolin monks and had near supernatural powers. He never said anything like "I first learned this form when I was 15, one of GM Ie's friends taught it to me. It originally came from the Fukien province of China." What would be so hard about that? I regret now, never asking those types of questions when I was there. But I was always too nervous to start asking such questions, and there wasn't much opportunity to anyway.

I would love to have someone put the brown belt material and black tiger forms, on video, so people can see them and compare to other styles. When I have the space to do so, I would do it, though I might not give the best performance of it. It would be best to have someone with more experience do it, obviously. I have a hunch that the black tiger forms may have silat/cimande influence.

[kwaichang]

THanks Sal for your offer I too apologize to you. I also watched the Chen Man Ching Tai chi and I have to disagree with BaquaLin the angles are different at times the number of movements are different and the hand positions are different as well the kicks start with a different angle and foot unless I saw it wrong. As far as the history GM Th'e does not give where or whom or what age he was when he learned a form I do know when he was testing me one time he told the history of the 3 Tiger forms for Black level, Ching Kang Fu Hu Chien Etc So i guess he was just being Nice. KC

[Judge Pen]

I also watched the Chen Man Ching Tai chi and I have to disagree with BaquaLin the angles are different at times the number of movements are different and the hand positions are different as well the kicks start with a different angle and foot unless I saw it wrong.

KC, i think you're right and you're wrong. All of your observations are correct, but I think you're focusing too much on the details. The postures, their sequencing, and order are essentially the same. Yes sometimes the number of times a posture is different, but I think they are the same form performed differently.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, now that's what I am talking about. I agree 100%.

I have started doing that for some of the forms that I teach. Sometimes I prefer the way we do it, sometimes I like how other people do it. I try to retain both versions in my head. Some of my students who have trained previously at other SD schools do the same. Instead of letting them get discouraged when they have to relearn a form I simply point out that it gives them more variations and ways to think about the form. Sometimes the changes are simple like leaving out a temple block here or there, other times the changes are more drastic.

Ok ... I'll throw one out here. SD's walking the circle, in Pa Qua, is like walking through mud, stepping high off the ground and placing the foot back down while maintaining a 'hollow' in the foot. Most other schools do a sliding step as they walk the circle. I like doing both versions, depending on the speed I am doing the form in. Seen any other groups do this?

PS. I am sitting here in my Cobra Kai Johnny costume I just got done piecing together for Halloween and I am totally feeling like the king of the demo.

Well, the mud walking method comes from Beijing style Bagua Zhang (you have to say "zhang" - plams after Bagua because there are lots of different styles also named Bagua).
It comes from Bagua Zhang and Xingyi Quan masters getting together and learning from each other and comparing notes. Mud stepping is a Xingyi Quan influence. It's done so you can adjust with each step to maintain your center.

The original method of walking was the sliding step method.
Their body mechanics are very different from each other with different emphasis and strategy and have to be adjusted for, it's not just a matter of what you do with your toes, it's a matter of what you do with your dantian (your center of gravity) and how weight is shifted as you move.
The sliding method comes from the Shaolin Luohan roots that Bagua Zhang has.

Neither has to do with speed, you can do both at all speeds and with all three Basins (heigh, medium, and low) of height, each basin the forms are done very differently.

[kwaichang]

True JP but the fact that Cen Man Ching was one of the major promoters of Tai Chi would only add to the fact that most "Yang" Tai Chi Forms would take on that flavor. It is the subtle differences that seperates it from the form posted. KC

[kwaichang]

In the Pa Kua that I was taught yhe rules state to brush the ankle and to sit like a Tiger or weight on the foundation foot? not sure how to say that, and the waist coiled like a Dragon. Or power from the waist or Dan Tien KC

[Sal Canzonieri]

hi sal,

:)

i dont know if you have reference to hsing i material but how about looking into this.
which lineage did it come from? how did it come to sin the'?

of coarse meteor fist would be interesting to hear about...

here is a clip of me practicing the form (with a small bit edited out ...)
http://www.youtube.com/user/brucereiter#p/u/11/n1fpOAkhIEo

below are the names i was given when i learned the form.

Linkage of the 5 Roads
U hsing Lein Huan Chien


Green dragon comes Out of the water
Yuing Lung Chu Sue’



1 Getting Ready Position
Yi Pei se


2 Forward Right Crushing Hand
Tjin pu yu pen chien


3 Retreat left Crushing Hand
Tue’ pu chuo pen chien




Black Tiger Comes Out of the Cave
He Hu Chu Tung



4 Scoop forward, Right Crushing Hand
Sue’n Pu yu Pe’ng chien





White crane Spreads the Wings
Pai Ho Lian che’




5 Retreat, Embrace the Fist
Tue’ Pu pao Chien





Wildcat Climbs the Tree
Ye’ mao san su



6 Forward, Cannon Fist
Tjin Pu pao Chien



7 Retreat, Left Chop Hand
Tue’ Pu Chuo Pi Chang



8 Foot close together, right stopping fist
Ao Pu yu Chan Chien
Note: It also includes thee left stopping fist that preceded


9 Jump (or step forward) double chop hand
Tiao Pu Suang Pi Chien







Wildcat back up the tree
Ye’ mao tao snag su




10 Forward, Right Crushing Hand
Tjin (Chin) Pu yu peng chien



11 Turn the Body Position
Hue’ sen se



12 Closing Position
Sou Se

No distinct lineage, that's the traditional wushu version of the Five Elements Linking form, that all lineages coming from Hebei Style Xinyi Quan do. That looks like the exact official government modern version that is taught in schools as a standard Hebei beginner form to start with.

[Sal Canzonieri]

In the Pa Kua that I was taught yhe rules state to brush the ankle and to sit like a Tiger or weight on the foundation foot? not sure how to say that, and the waist coiled like a Dragon. Or power from the waist or Dan Tien KC

that is correct in Cheng and Sun styles.

[Sal Canzonieri]

KC, i think you're right and you're wrong. All of your observations are correct, but I think you're focusing too much on the details. The postures, their sequencing, and order are essentially the same. Yes sometimes the number of times a posture is different, but I think they are the same form performed differently.

But why would Ie (or whoever from back then) bother to go find the,at that time, brand new and untested and obscure Chen Manching set, when the Yang family 108 set was always readily available everywhere to learn from very good qualified masters.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thanks, Sal... looking forward to learning from you...

I STILL have no idea where the SD 8 animal bagua form comes from...

8 Animal Bagua is from one particular lineage.
It is the style that John Painter does in his videos that came out in the 1970s.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Let me extend my hand in friendship.
While I disagree with some of your post, I do agree with some of them.
Like material coming from books and videos or other sources. I personally believe that most if not all of the material sin the' taught after 1990 was not learned during his time training at the chung yen school. I have no evidence this is just an opinion. Dragon pakua, 8 animal pakua, chen taichi, the 5 animal form, could have all been learned through books or videos.
But I do believe that the core material, the material that matches hiang's is material learned in indonesia. And I believe that hiang's complete list of material was learned in indonesia. Again this is my opinion.

well, you might be right. But was Sin The teaching the 1990s material himself or instructors. How do you know that the instructors didn't get them from books or videos so that they could make more money getting people to get ranks from learning them?

There's a core system of Shaolin derived southern Chinese martial arts that went to Indonesia from the Hakka people, those sets are very different from any other system.

All those other routines just don't make sense being taught by elders in this Hakka system, they NEVER would ever learn or teach anything from outside their culture, it would be punishable by exile or even death.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Bruce,

Your form looks very different than the way I was taught. I'm not being critical, I'm just surprised at the differences. Some of it may be due to your personal nuances, and some due to how it has transformed from teacher to teacher.

Well, he was trying to do this, which is standard Hebei Xingyi Quan - Wuxing Lianhuang Quan (Five Elements Linking Form):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb0jtUxTy5s

[Sal Canzonieri]

I would like to see what you have ...oh and I forgive you for being a pompous @$$....:D:p

Do tell us about the Meteor Fist routines.....

There's just one Meteor First routine.
I'd have to see the SD version or see the names of the movements and postures so I could compare it to the set that (drawings, not video) I have in my archives.
It comes from the original northern Songshan Shaolin area, it is practiced today rarely. It is very distinct, hard to miss, nothing else looks like it.

I had heard it was one of the newer sets that SD has added?

[Sal Canzonieri]

the gao bagua i am learning uses a heel/toe step almost like normal walking.

Gao is heavily merged with Luohan Quan, which has that.

[Sal Canzonieri]

True JP but the fact that Cen Man Ching was one of the major promoters of Tai Chi would only add to the fact that most "Yang" Tai Chi Forms would take on that flavor. It is the subtle differences that seperates it from the form posted. KC

But that not true at all, that's not what happened.
Traditional Yang was always the thing to learn.

He became a major promoter of Taiji Quan in the USA and outside of Taiwan. In Taiwan he wasn't considered any good except by his own students and people had proved that he only has spent a very short amount of time learning, if at all, from Yang Chengfu himself.

His books, yes, had very good insight to the workings of taichi, and his personal style of taiji quan was effective when he used it. But it wasn't exactly what he taught others and since he was one of the first people teaching Taiji Quan in the USA that what made it get so popular mostly. You had to take what he did and said and make it your own (by learning more TJQ elsewhere and combining things) for it to be of any use. Most average people that learn this style are pretty weak and aweful for the most part in comparison to people that do standard Yang family Taiji Quan.

In China, you could never say "most "Yang" Tai Chi Forms would take on that flavor", that would make no sense and be completely outside of the facts. Only in the USa would that be true, if that.
Traditional Yang stylists wouldn't be doing his style at all, and he didn't get known until the 1950s in the USA and his form didn't get popular here till the late 60s.

[themeecer]

Dang it. it is 12:42 in the AM here and after reading this thread and watching the youtube videos I want to go outside and practice. I guess that is a good thing. it sure beats me wanting to sit here on my backside and argue with people.

Question for the SD people ... what is your favorite form of ours? You can break it down into categories if you like.

Prior to black belt I like Connecting Fist and broadsword. But 3rd bird, Yen He, is getting close to surpassing Connecting Fist.
After that I like our Hou Tien Chi and Shien Tien Chi meditation. (I know .. they aren't forms, but I love teaching it and doing it) Form wise: Tai Chi (CMC) and 7 section chain whip. (the nine section is too long for my ADD mind)

Least favorite: Blue belt staff form.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Dang it. it is 12:42 in the AM here and after reading this thread and watching the youtube videos I want to go outside and practice. I guess that is a good thing. it sure beats me wanting to sit here on my backside and argue with people.

Question for the SD people ... what is your favorite form of ours? You can break it down into categories if you like.

Prior to black belt I like Connecting Fist and broadsword. But 3rd bird, Yen He, is getting close to surpassing Connecting Fist.
After that I like our Hou Tien Chi and Shien Tien Chi meditation. (I know .. they aren't forms, but I love teaching it and doing it) Form wise: Tai Chi (CMC) and 7 section chain whip. (the nine section is too long for my ADD mind)

Least favorite: Blue belt staff form.

Somewhere in my archives there's an old list from 1980s of which SD routines were for each rank. I have so much stuff, it would take a while to find it, if I still have it and hopefully didn't throw it away.

[brucereiter]

Bruce,

Your form looks very different than the way I was taught. I'm not being critical, I'm just surprised at the differences. Some of it may be due to your personal nuances, and some due to how it has transformed from teacher to teacher.

meecer,

no worries ... i put the videos up for critique and conversation ...
i am sure most of the differences are my own personal nuances.
the way i approach hsing i that i learned in sd is very different than the way i was taught. i have changed my approach to hsing i to reflect my current understanding of what hsing i is and have been influenced by a few outside teachers lessons along the way. as my current understanding changes my form changes.


what are some differences in your approach?
did you like or dislike what you saw?

[Golden Tiger]

what are some differences in your approach?

I too noticed some differences, not a critique mind you.

After the first crushing hand, step back- we do two punches were as you do one before pivoting and crossing the hands.

After cannon fist, step back- you do either chopping fist or 3-body, we do crossing fist (right hand up) the 3-body or chopping.

Before the turn, you do cannon fist-we do stopping fist.

[Baqualin]

This is more like it...thanks Sal!!
KC it's ok to disagree with me!! But 64 is the CMC form......with slight changes...one change GMS made was the speed of the form.....slowed it way down....we're taught 25 min. to complete, CMC taught it as 10 min. one reason he gave was to increase strength & sensitivity. Don't know if this came from GMIe or something he did himself.
He did say that it was GMIe who taught him Baqua & Tai Chi.....he spoke of doing Tai Chi on the beach when he was a kid and how it made him feel.
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

This is more like it...thanks Sal!!
KC it's ok to disagree with me!! But 64 is the CMC form......with slight changes...one change GMS made was the speed of the form.....slowed it way down....we're taught 25 min. to complete, CMC taught it as 10 min. one reason he gave was to increase strength & sensitivity. Don't know if this came from GMIe or something he did himself.
He did say that it was GMIe who taught him Baqua & Tai Chi.....he spoke of doing Tai Chi on the beach when he was a kid and how it made him feel.
BQ

But Chinese people at that time did not teach taji to children (nor XY ad BG), it was considering detrimental to their health and development. It was for people over 25 or so, because you needed at least 10 years experience stretching and developing your tendons and ligaments via a long fist martial arts.
I have never seen except in modern times any Chinese master of internal martial arts that didn't first learn a long fist martial art and THEN transitioned into an internal one.

[Baqualin]

But Chinese people at that time did not teach taji to children (nor XY ad BG), it was considering detrimental to their health and development. It was for people over 25 or so, because you needed at least 10 years experience stretching and developing your tendons and ligaments via a long fist martial arts.
I have never seen except in modern times any Chinese master of internal martial arts that didn't first learn a long fist martial art and THEN transitioned into an internal one.

In general history I would say your right, but GMS was with GMIe 8 hours a day for 10 years and learned Tai Chi in his teenage years after he had studied other external styles first (according to him)......I also used the word kid because I'm an old **** and anybody under 21 is a kid to old ****s;)
BQ

[Baqualin]

I also agree that one should study external styles for a while before dedicated themselves to the internal....as said you learn your basic stances, power generation, strength and of course stretching.
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

I also agree that one should study external styles for a while before dedicated themselves to the internal....as said you learn your basic stances, power generation, strength and of course stretching.
BQ

Long fist isn't necessarily external, it's very internal, that's why you learn it first before Taiji, it's that it expands the body, and builds strength, etc., things that you would want a pre-teen and teen to develop.

Long fist being stuff like Taizu Chang Quan, Mizong Quan, Tongbei Quan, Hong Quan, Luohan Quan, etc. Just about every famous old time master learned one of these first.

Here's one thing I wonder about SD curriculum.
As far as it's Northern CMA material, how come I have never heard of anyone teaching the preliminary routines and qi gong sets that you must learn first before doing the more public and well known sets?
All I have ever seen is routines being taught that are the well known public ones.

There's a lot of material that has to be learned first in order to build a solid foundation for doing efficient and effective northern Chinese martial arts, such as Shaolin. Where are they?

That's how come I kept saying the mechanics are off, without these foundational routines and qigong sets, none of the later routines make real sense to a person.

[arinathos.valin]

Sal, thanks for the input. I've always wondered where that 8 animal sequence came from. I'm trying to find a clip somewhere of J. Painter doing it so I can compare. I have a number of his videos that show combat applications that don't have much resemblance to the animal form, but that may be because the videos are from a later time where Painter was concentrating on his 9 dragon system. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on Painter and Frantzis.

I'd agree with you on the combat prowess of most practitioners of the CMC style. My impression is that CMC was so good at sensitivity, yielding, balance control, and yielding that he rarely had to resort to anything else. I think his students in the US misinterpreted his emphasis on relaxation, and made relaxation the primary focus, with far less emphasis on body mechanics and structure. The result was practitioners that did the form like spaghetti that's been boiled for an hour...limp and relaxed, but completely lacking in substance.

[kwaichang]

But that not true at all, that's not what happened.
Traditional Yang was always the thing to learn.

He became a major promoter of Taiji Quan in the USA and outside of Taiwan. In Taiwan he wasn't considered any good except by his own students and people had proved that he only has spent a very short amount of time learning, if at all, from Yang Chengfu himself.

His books, yes, had very good insight to the workings of taichi, and his personal style of taiji quan was effective when he used it. But it wasn't exactly what he taught others and since he was one of the first people teaching Taiji Quan in the USA that what made it get so popular mostly. You had to take what he did and said and make it your own (by learning more TJQ elsewhere and combining things) for it to be of any use. Most average people that learn this style are pretty weak and aweful for the most part in comparison to people that do standard Yang family Taiji Quan.

In China, you could never say "most "Yang" Tai Chi Forms would take on that flavor", that would make no sense and be completely outside of the facts. Only in the USa would that be true, if that.
Traditional Yang stylists wouldn't be doing his style at all, and he didn't get known until the 1950s in the USA and his form didn't get popular here till the late 60s.

I put QUOTES around the word YANG because I feel much of todays Tai Chi is a *******ized form of Yang. So I agree but did GMTh'e say it was CMC or not Baqualin???? KC

[Baqualin]

I put QUOTES around the word YANG because I feel much of todays Tai Chi is a *******ized form of Yang. So I agree but did GMTh'e say it was CMC or not Baqualin???? KC

Never ask him....there's no doubt in my mind that it's CMC's FORM.......my training on the form and how to apply it is GMS's and that's all I care about...it's well known that 24 & Chen Tai Chi fan he picked up from colleges in Indonesia.....tracing forms back to the person who originated it is not downing grading the system in any way.....everything had to come from someone.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Long fist isn't necessarily external, it's very internal, that's why you learn it first before Taiji, it's that it expands the body, and builds strength, etc., things that you would want a pre-teen and teen to develop.

Long fist being stuff like Taizu Chang Quan, Mizong Quan, Tongbei Quan, Hong Quan, Luohan Quan, etc. Just about every famous old time master learned one of these first.

Here's one thing I wonder about SD curriculum.
As far as it's Northern CMA material, how come I have never heard of anyone teaching the preliminary routines and qi gong sets that you must learn first before doing the more public and well known sets?
All I have ever seen is routines being taught that are the well known public ones.

There's a lot of material that has to be learned first in order to build a solid foundation for doing efficient and effective northern Chinese martial arts, such as Shaolin. Where are they?

That's how come I kept saying the mechanics are off, without these foundational routines and qigong sets, none of the later routines make real sense to a person.

The main qi gong sets we learn are the Live / Dead Animal training.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Sal, thanks for the input. I've always wondered where that 8 animal sequence came from. I'm trying to find a clip somewhere of J. Painter doing it so I can compare. I have a number of his videos that show combat applications that don't have much resemblance to the animal form, but that may be because the videos are from a later time where Painter was concentrating on his 9 dragon system. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on Painter and Frantzis.

I'd agree with you on the combat prowess of most practitioners of the CMC style. My impression is that CMC was so good at sensitivity, yielding, balance control, and yielding that he rarely had to resort to anything else. I think his students in the US misinterpreted his emphasis on relaxation, and made relaxation the primary focus, with far less emphasis on body mechanics and structure. The result was practitioners that did the form like spaghetti that's been boiled for an hour...limp and relaxed, but completely lacking in substance.

If the 8 animal from DR. Painter is the same as Jerry Allen Johnson's set it's not the same as ours...I have yet to find it.
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, thanks for the input. I've always wondered where that 8 animal sequence came from. I'm trying to find a clip somewhere of J. Painter doing it so I can compare. I have a number of his videos that show combat applications that don't have much resemblance to the animal form, but that may be because the videos are from a later time where Painter was concentrating on his 9 dragon system. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on Painter and Frantzis.

I'd agree with you on the combat prowess of most practitioners of the CMC style. My impression is that CMC was so good at sensitivity, yielding, balance control, and yielding that he rarely had to resort to anything else. I think his students in the US misinterpreted his emphasis on relaxation, and made relaxation the primary focus, with far less emphasis on body mechanics and structure. The result was practitioners that did the form like spaghetti that's been boiled for an hour...limp and relaxed, but completely lacking in substance.

Oh, sorry, I made a mistake, it is not Painter that promotes 8 Animals Bagua, it is Jerry Alan Johnson, from the 1970s.
Here's some YouTube videos you can check out of his old lectures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFxdk_X1uIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ_Lj5p3iMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9802RoPeJM

There a lot more there too, you can find the links.
Check it out and let me know how it compares to the SD 8 Animals Bagua, I'm curious.

I don't have anything to say about Painter, I never had any interaction.
Frantzis, I have known a long time, since when he first came back to NYC after leaving China for good. I took all his seminars that he gave way back then, those were his first seminars. In person, I have always found him and he martial art ability and knowledge to be amazing. Regardless of his personality that some take offense with, he knows his stuff, can do amazing things, and he leaves you in awe, at least back then. Nowadays, he been in a few car accidents (as passenger) and is having a hard time with mobility.
But, he knows his stuff, just one talk with him is like a year's worth of instruction.
Learning with him in his seminars was immensely illuminating. Whether it is qigong, TJQ, XY, BG, Long Fist, any interaction with Frantzis was well worth it.

Agree with your second statement about modern day CMC TJQ players, limp is the word.

[Leto]

Long fist isn't necessarily external, it's very internal, that's why you learn it first before Taiji, it's that it expands the body, and builds strength, etc., things that you would want a pre-teen and teen to develop.

Long fist being stuff like Taizu Chang Quan, Mizong Quan, Tongbei Quan, Hong Quan, Luohan Quan, etc. Just about every famous old time master learned one of these first.

Here's one thing I wonder about SD curriculum.
As far as it's Northern CMA material, how come I have never heard of anyone teaching the preliminary routines and qi gong sets that you must learn first before doing the more public and well known sets?
All I have ever seen is routines being taught that are the well known public ones.

There's a lot of material that has to be learned first in order to build a solid foundation for doing efficient and effective northern Chinese martial arts, such as Shaolin. Where are they?

That's how come I kept saying the mechanics are off, without these foundational routines and qigong sets, none of the later routines make real sense to a person.

It's true, no one ever demonstrates the beginner material. I wouldn't say SD teaches traditional northern shaolin at all, none of the sets you listed are in the curriculum. The preliminary material that everyone learns first are mostly self-defense and fighting oriented. For me, the first qi gong presented was in the form of taijiquan postures like holding ball and white crane apreads wings, and the universal posture, this was taught along with the simplified 24 form from the very beginning. later, hou tian qi breathing methods and meditation postures were presented in a yearly or twice yearly class. Five animal play and xian tian qi were taught after about 1.5/2 years, again only as a special class taught once or twice a year. The real preliminary material for the long forms, I feel, is the 30 short forms, which are taught from day one. The short forms are longfist-like patterns of 2-6 techniques each that move in a straight line forward and back, mostly closed fist hands techniques. This is where the traditional stances are learned, long low stances are emphasized for stretching and strengthening. The techniques from the short forms are found in some of the forms learned later on, like jie quan. Along with the 30 forms, there are some very short routines taught like si men tao lian, fei hu chu dong, tai peng shen quan, and luohan quan (which is not anything like the shaolin ones, it is a very short preliminary mantis form).

After these, some forms more moderate in length and difficulty are taught. san he quan, which is a fukien-style sanzhan-like form. Three forms called white crane circles wings, white crane jabs wings, white crane circles legs (which might really all be one form). These have some fukien-like elements, but are not like any of the fukien white crane styles I've seen. They include ground techniques, rolling and drop kick/ground sweeps.

Then there are the three bird forms. These have longfist-like elements from the , such as the long stances and straight leg kicks, but most of the hand techniques are open hand finger and palms, and there are some southern-like elements, such as a sequence using the three battle stance from san he quan.

Then comes jie quan, lian wu zhang, and jin gang fu hu quan, which I feel are closest in style to the type of northern longfist forms practiced in Taiwan. I know jie quan is a form used by chin woo, and maybe all three of these came from a chin woo someplace before they ended up in Bandung in the 1950s.

After this, comes the black tiger forms, black tiger rips the heart, BT turns the body, BT flips the body, and BT suffering wounds. These forms use loose whipping power with mostly open hands/palms. They are also quite athletic, with cartwheels, rolls and drops and kicking/sweeping and grabbing from the ground.

The the taijiquan 37 form is taught, or emphasized at this time (it may have been learned earlier on in a special class)

After these forms, baguazhang practice begins with the "original" form of jiang rong qiao (though he is not given credit or mentioned at all, don't think amny people know/realize this). After baguazhang comes xingyiquan with five roads, linkage form, 12 animals, and then a two person set combining the elements and animals. Also at this time the five animal play qi gong is emphasized, required material for testing along with the xingyiquan.

After the xingyiquan come a group of unrelated forms from various styles, a mantis form simply called "tang lang quan" which has tons of kicks and some rolling/ground attack, the hung gar-like tiger crane double form, and four roads of hua quan. After this is the drunken eight immortals system, one form for each immortal, as well as the hung sing choy li fut version of the five animal form (or one extremely similar to that).

After that, come more internal forms, the chen 83 posture old frame form, 8 animal baguazhang, and some other stuff I'm not sure about.
What comes after that, I don't know, if there is a formal curriculum for that stage.

At all levels, there are various weapon forms being taught along with the empty hand forms...different staff forms, short stick, dao, jian, spear, guan dao, chain whip, tiger hook swords, daggers

The material I just listed is meant to be taught over the course of fifteen years, minimum, according to the schedule the CSC in the west had in place. There are lots of other forms which are not part of the curriculum (yet) but which Sin The or the other masters teach in seminar format each year as they travel around the country.

[kwaichang]

I am not saying SD is downgrading the form I just dont see the complete connection. I feel the form has changed so much most not all Tai Chi is similar. I want to learn the Yang 108 form. myself. KC

[kwaichang]

5th BB, Li Ti Kuai, 8 animal pakua, Twin Tiger Jian, Chen Tai Chi, Her Shan Ku, Shang Chung Li, 5 animal Fist, Li Kuai Axes, Drunken Spear, Lan Chai Her,Cha Ka Chu. Should be 5 of the 8 immortals and others listed. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's true, no one ever demonstrates the beginner material. I wouldn't say SD teaches traditional northern shaolin at all, none of the sets you listed are in the curriculum. The preliminary material that everyone learns first are mostly self-defense and fighting oriented. For me, the first qi gong presented was in the form of taijiquan postures like holding ball and white crane apreads wings, and the universal posture, this was taught along with the simplified 24 form from the very beginning.....blah...blah...blah.... The material I just listed is meant to be taught over the course of fifteen years, minimum, according to the schedule the CSC in the west had in place. There are lots of other forms which are not part of the curriculum (yet) but which Sin The or the other masters teach in seminar format each year as they travel around the country.

I demonstrate the beginner material every time I help students learn it...LOL...but they're not visually impressive sets, so if I were to vid them and show them off, they'd be visually unimpressive. I imagine that's the reason they're not often "shown off". Then agian, I think "Tan Tui" is pretty visually unimpressive even in a Chinese "Master's" hands.

As for SD/Northern Shaolin---it is Northern Shaolin. I know this is a hard concept for people to grasp, Sd or not, but it is Northern Shaolin. Are they Northern Shaolin "Forms" as in---what you'll learn from a wushu competition or from a traditional Longfist DVD or whatever? No. But hte techniques are hte same. The movements are the same. The forms are just, well, not "aesthetically trimmed" quite the same or patterned on the same progression of footsteps. SD has its own unique method of teaching that material--some good innovations, some bad ones. You'll only ever know which is which if you try Northern Shaolin and Shaolin-Do.

I've studied Northern Shaolin with a Wushu coach--Longfist--long enough to learn 1 1/2 sets (just under a year), and I've been to a couple of schools claiming to teach Northern Shaolin. Only, SD doesn't teach Northern Shaolin the way Northern Shaolin is taught elsewhere. SD breaks it up, teaches how to throw some heavy duty punches, some sanshou sweeps, etc., and does more conditioning early on. So yeah, it's karatified because it's based on kicking ass. I'm not dissing Northern Shaolin, but ****, no school I went to had a heavy bag in the building and the workouts were paced for geriatrics. SD doesn't do "Tan Tui" or such sets posture for posture, but I guarantee, from experience, that they're just about equivalent. While I do prefer the polish and such of Northern Shaolin to SD, and still I think the Short forms of SD are far superior in application.

You can call me biased, but I'm a pretty hardy critic of both. Honestly, the difference is this: if you want to be able to do the sets you see on kung fu DVD's or in the movies, you can learn those in NS. If you just want to be able to defend yourself using NS techniques, you can do that with SD. Granted, not all SD people can do this. But then, many NS practitioners are out of shape, poorly conditioned, and can't fight worth crap because the principles taught by "Chinese" methods are ****-poor methods for self-defense. SD has some ****-poor theories, too. It's like Ying-Yang, in a way. Most CMA I've seen is incredibly effiminate [Ying-Yang theory or not], and much of SD lacks a dose of reality.

But if you man up, dispense with dancing, and smack yourself across the cheek, you can learn some valuable stuff from either. Personally--and this is the reason I stuck with SD over Northern Shaolin--I think you'd have a better shot at "martial" artistry with SD.

As for breathing exercises, qi gong and such, the answer is simple. In Lohan Quan, all 3 cranes, all 3 birds, and all 3 Brown belt tigers, the Qi Gong is at the beginning and end of every form. It's built into the form. I see a lot of newbies and some senior guys rocket through those parts, but they were taught as Qigong when I learned them. Every student has to pass through extensive Meditation/Breathing at black belt level, and GM The' asserts that meditation is the foundation of our art. I get what GM The' means, but I'd contend Chin-na is the foundation of the "martial" part of our art. Our Chin-na is really nasty. Studying BJJ didn't diminish my respect for SD's chin-na. In fact, it strengthened it and helped me a lot in takedowns, locks, etc. that are illegal in BJJ, but make a nasty, nasty combination with it to counter takedowns.

In other words, this whole thread is r-tarded and pointless.

[Shaolin Wookie]

As for the whole nomenclature game: what's external and what's internal...that's only valuable if you read kung-fu books or you're trying to explain kung fu to beginners, or fronting like a yuppie "master in the hills".

There's punching, kicking, chin-na, wrestling, and meditation--which in China, stripped of its useless metaphysical theory [viz. useless when you're getting your ass kicked] is really just controlled breathing and self-control [viz. patience].

I think the internal/external thing is pretty ****ed r-tarded nowadays. You're either into meditation or you're into both meditation and fighting. I say that because conditioning is actually the strongest form of meditation, and assists in sitting meditation. Qigong without a good jab, cross, hook, or roundhouse is like a bullet without a gun.

[Sal Canzonieri]

That's not true at all, every school or teacher I learned with since 1975 had taught self defense and being able to fight with all the material, from day one, including using the qi gong and stretching warm up movements for self defense and so on.

And in my 50 years of traveling all over the world many times with my band, I have used Northern style Chinese martial arts every time and was able to squash the attacker very fast and with ease.

Anything is good if you make it good. Not only does the cream rise to the top but so does the c r a p, so it is up to you to open your eyes and ears and mind and learn what's real self defense.

I've never been to a CMA school that didn't teach how to kick a s s, maybe you know the crummy ones and I've just been lucky.

I've had people visit from the internet forums and they have posted that I punch has hard as a mule and so on, not saying that to brag, but to say that all the traditional stuff I have ever learned has never failed me.

Plus, there is a lot more than the routines that you see on DVDs or so on.

The foundation sets I was taking about aren't "beginner" sets that you walk through, like Wu Bu Quan and Tan Tui and so on.

I mean full fledged routines that each posture and movement teaches the important things that make your KF more efficient and effective in use. They teach why you need to do things.
Chuan Yuan Quan, Taizu Chang Quan, Hong Quan, 18 Luohan Shou, and so on are way way way past beginner level but they are foundational routines. They support all the future routines one learns. Hence, you learn them first, and before them you learn qigong sets that are used for self defense, not just for breathing excercises.

I've taught many people from Karate and Taekowndo black belt ranks and they always comment on how the early foundational KF they were learning was already way past what they learned as black belts. They saw that kicking and punching was just scratching the surface of the art, that CMA was showing them how to use their whole body as a weapon, not only including their whole body's surface area, but using the act of walking and moving naturally as a weapon of self defense.

At least's that been my experience, other's, oh, well, better luck next time.
I think that the best saying is always "When the student is ready, the teacher arrives".
If you aren't looking, in the right place at the right time, you miss your chance.

[MasterKiller]

I demonstrate the beginner material every time I help students learn it...LOL...but they're not visually impressive sets, so if I were to vid them and show them off, they'd be visually unimpressive. I imagine that's the reason they're not often "shown off". Then agian, I think "Tan Tui" is pretty visually unimpressive even in a Chinese "Master's" hands.

I dunno, this Tan Tui looks pretty good to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83nvRwq-4



As for SD/Northern Shaolin---it is Northern Shaolin. I know this is a hard concept for people to grasp, Sd or not, but it is Northern Shaolin. Are they Northern Shaolin "Forms" as in---what you'll learn from a wushu competition or from a traditional Longfist DVD or whatever? No. But hte techniques are hte same. The movements are the same. The forms are just, well, not "aesthetically trimmed" quite the same or patterned on the same progression of footsteps. SD has its own unique method of teaching that material--some good innovations, some bad ones. You'll only ever know which is which if you try Northern Shaolin and Shaolin-Do.

I've studied Northern Shaolin with a Wushu coach--Longfist--long enough to learn 1 1/2 sets (just under a year), and I've been to a couple of schools claiming to teach Northern Shaolin. Only, SD doesn't teach Northern Shaolin the way Northern Shaolin is taught elsewhere. SD breaks it up, teaches how to throw some heavy duty punches, some sanshou sweeps, etc., and does more conditioning early on. So yeah, it's karatified because it's based on kicking ass. I'm not dissing Northern Shaolin, but ****, no school I went to had a heavy bag in the building and the workouts were paced for geriatrics. SD doesn't do "Tan Tui" or such sets posture for posture, but I guarantee, from experience, that they're just about equivalent. While I do prefer the polish and such of Northern Shaolin to SD, and still I think the Short forms of SD are far superior in application.

You can call me biased, but I'm a pretty hardy critic of both. Honestly, the difference is this: if you want to be able to do the sets you see on kung fu DVD's or in the movies, you can learn those in NS. If you just want to be able to defend yourself using NS techniques, you can do that with SD. Granted, not all SD people can do this. But then, many NS practitioners are out of shape, poorly conditioned, and can't fight worth crap because the principles taught by "Chinese" methods are ****-poor methods for self-defense. SD has some ****-poor theories, too. It's like Ying-Yang, in a way. Most CMA I've seen is incredibly effiminate [Ying-Yang theory or not], and much of SD lacks a dose of reality.

But if you man up, dispense with dancing, and smack yourself across the cheek, you can learn some valuable stuff from either. Personally--and this is the reason I stuck with SD over Northern Shaolin--I think you'd have a better shot at "martial" artistry with SD.

Traditional Long Fist isn't wushu, wookie. Heck, it's not even pretty.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Northern "Shaolin" Wushu as in modern chinese government sanctioned wushu routines created by committee?

Umm, that's not Traditional Northern Shaolin, whatsoever, it's just nice sets to do at competitions.
Modern wushu is not used for self defense.

Like comparing apples and oranges.

[Northwind]

As a life-long Northern Shaolin practitioner, I gotta say wookie - that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to BSL/NS, etc. I am no fan of Shaolin-Do, however I won't try to go on about this or that of it, because by not being a practitioner, I don't have the right. Defending your system is fine and expected, but don't speak on what you don't know please.

[Tao Of The Fist]

As a life-long Northern Shaolin practitioner, I gotta say wookie - that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to BSL/NS, etc. I am no fan of Shaolin-Do, however I won't try to go on about this or that of it, because by not being a practitioner, I don't have the right. Defending your system is fine and expected, but don't speak on what you don't know please.

I don't think he means BSL necessarily, but northern styles altogether. I'm just assuming, I dont know what he actually meant, blah deh blah, etc.

[LaterthanNever]

"As for the whole nomenclature game: what's external and what's internal...that's only valuable if you read kung-fu books"

And you learned this from the Shaolin-Do people? Hmmm..:rolleyes:


"There's punching, kicking, chin-na, wrestling, and meditation--which in China, stripped of its useless metaphysical theory [viz. useless when you're getting your ass kicked] is really just controlled breathing and self-control [viz. patience]."


And did you learn this from the SD folks as well?

"I think the internal/external thing is pretty ****ed r-tarded nowadays. You're either into meditation or you're into both meditation and fighting. I say that because conditioning is actually the strongest form of meditation, and assists in sitting meditation. Qigong without a good jab, cross, hook, or roundhouse is like a bullet without a gun. "

Either or thinking..yes. Very good. That's like saying any man who has sex must either be an adult film star or have erectile dysfunction. It's also like saying anyone who takes a sip of beer will become a falling down drunk/raging alcoholic, or anyone who has ever said the "F" word is an immoral degenerate but anyone who refuses to swear is automatically 100% ethical. I can see the SD folks taught you well.

Tell me, why don't the monks in the actual shaolin temple in China in the current day and age mention Sin Kwang The when kung fu sifus/masters I know travel there? Why don't they mention Chewbacca/wolfman either?

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;968055]Oh, sorry, I made a mistake, it is not Painter that promotes 8 Animals Bagua, it is Jerry Alan Johnson, from the 1970s.
Here's some YouTube videos you can check out of his old lectures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFxdk_X1uIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ_Lj5p3iMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9802RoPeJM

There a lot more there too, you can find the links.
Check it out and let me know how it compares to the SD 8 Animals Bagua, I'm curious.

It doesn't....at all.
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL...I love this webboard because it's comedy at its best. A real theater of the absurd.

Nothing is ever the "real" deal Longfist, and nothing is ever "the true way" to practice. There are always two standards. You go to the "soft style" or "Chinese" section in a tournament, hear thirty guys talking about how kung fu isn't pretty, --or even better, the judges do so---and then they engage in ballet and critique each other on the tilt of their pinkie fingers mid-backflip.

Oh, and I'm always wrong. That's probably true.

There's never a standard to hold things to except some dude on a Youtube clip or a guy with a successful DVD set, or maybe some Chinese guy in San Francisco who's the standard lineage bearer of "Magic Missile Mantis Fist", and the aesthetics of a set is always judged higher than anything else. Oh, and when you catch a glimpse of the "real deal", it's always somehow "ugly" or whatever. The "real" stuff is ugly.

Well, then, ****, you just admitted that every critique of an SD form proves it's the "real deal."

You know, it's kung fu deconstruction. Figures...a little Derrida, some Lao Tzu or Confucious thrown in the mix, and wham bam.....A standard of criticism that never asserts one fact except that all interpretation is misinterpretation. But wait, there's more: there are guys with hte correct interpretation. You know, the Derrida's of hte kung fu world, and other people are just ****ing up the transmission.:rolleyes: The chicken laid the egg, and now people are ****ing the chickens and laying rotten eggs at an alarming rate---but it wasn't always so. See, there used to be a standard.....back in the mists of time, when truth was readily perceived and ninja wizards fought on the battlefield of the spiritual tiger....

This webboard is hilarious.

LOL...that I'm a defender of SD. These clowns don't even know who they're talking to. Read some more books, track down some more forms, and attain englightenment....LOL....yeaaaah.....:rolleyes:

NEvermind me. I'm a troll. The worst kind, because I'm sincere.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Tell me, why don't the monks in the actual shaolin temple in China in the current day and age mention Sin Kwang The when kung fu sifus/masters I know travel there? Why don't they mention Chewbacca/wolfman either?

Look at my avatar, genius. It's because Sin Kwang The' grew up in Indonesia, learning in a Chinese community in Bangdung, under the Central Plains Wushu school, which has no affiliation at all with Shaolin except for a stele bought and paid for by some students. And GGM Su Kong is likely a myth.

Good attack, wisely aimed. I see your teachers taught you well. You aimed for the nuts, but since you lacked an internal frame of reference, clawed fittingly at thin air.

If you really want to insult me, tell me my forms are beautiful. Then I'll know I'm a fake.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I dunno, this Tan Tui looks pretty good to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83nvRwq-4



Traditional Long Fist isn't wushu, wookie. Heck, it's not even pretty.

Pretty/Ugly=Bad criteria for criticism.

Can you tell me, in all honesty, that one of those movements in the link above has ever assisted you in a fight? Have you ever blocked with an arm held out to the side, or placed your hand in front of you with the precision of that form, or thrown a kick with such postured elan?

No. I know. Tan Tui is basic because it teaches the basics, balance, and coordination. That's true. I agree. But then why does every practitioner leave it at that. It's a very rare sight to see anyone actually put some reality into their Tan Tui. ****ty Tan Tui leads to ****ty Longfist, leads to ****ty everything.

SD's Tan Tui sets--the infamous "Short Forms"--are sets of practical punches done without the "basics" of Tan Tui theory...which is.....well, rudimentary theory that really isn't that useful in the long run.

Didn't you quit Longfist for MMA? Why was that? Answer honestly.

[MasterKiller]

You know, it's kung fu deconstruction. Figures...a little Derrida, some Lao Tzu or Confucious thrown in the mix, and wham bam.....A standard of criticism that never asserts one fact except that all interpretation is misinterpretation. But wait, there's more: there are guys with hte correct interpretation. You know, the Derrida's of hte kung fu world, and other people are just ****ing up the transmission.:rolleyes: The chicken laid the egg, and now people are ****ing the chickens and laying rotten eggs at an alarming rate---but it wasn't always so. See, there used to be a standard.....back in the mists of time, when truth was readily perceived and ninja wizards fought on the battlefield of the spiritual tiger....


...anyone who reads deconstructive texts with an open mind is likely to be struck by the same phenomena that initially surprised me: the low level of philosophical argumentation, the deliberate obscurantism of the prose, the wildly exaggerated claims, and the constant striving to give the appearance of profundity by making claims that seem paradoxical, but under analysis often turn out to be silly or trivial.---Jon Searle

:rolleyes:

[Northwind]

No. I know. Tan Tui is basic because it teaches the basics, balance, and coordination. That's true. I agree. But then why does every practitioner leave it at that. It's a very rare sight to see anyone actually put some reality into their Tan Tui. ****ty Tan Tui leads to ****ty Longfist, leads to ****ty everything.


Then you haven't seen our Tan Tui, the way it is taught, etc. Your experience does not equate to "every practitioner", unfortunately. And no, Tan Tui is not "basic".

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here are some points, and you're free to disagree:

1. Unless you can fight, your forms are just forms. You can practice applications, but unless you can fight, and you do so regularly, they're just forms.

2. Most people who are sincere fight. I'm not accusing MK or Sal of being wussies or anything. They do spar, practice, or fight competitively. I'm 99% sure they likely do so more than me.

3. Forms reinforce your ability to fight, and keep you limber, conditioned, and open your mind.

4. Once you can fight, you often forget that you don't need forms.

5. When you don't need forms, you're free to do something else. Which means, your forms aren't really that important. You could make forms up if you wanted to, unless you're interested in collecting fragments of human experience, like a martial historian.

6. Anything that teaches how to move at an opponent, cut angles, work for holds, kick with precision and force, punch with precision and force, will assist you in self defense. There are infinite variations of theory, but too much theory is r-tarded. I'll bet you that even a Chung Moo guy, if he sparred regularly, would claim it was his "fancy ball work" that really was the deciding factor in any victory--not the fact that he was sparring.

7. Why do people leave kung fu for MMA? It's not because MMA has great forms and Longfist basics are the foundation of peerless fighting skills.

8. Why do people, myself included, stay in kung fu as their root style? Because it's more fun than BJJ, MMA training, or Chung Moo. But the Chung Moo sleepovers are great.;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Reply if you want. I don't really care. I'm sincere about that. goodbye.

[Northwind]

Those are general statements that I would agree with, as they have nothing to do with the comments I disagreed with.

[MasterKiller]

Pretty/Ugly=Bad criteria for criticism.

Can you tell me, in all honesty, that one of those movements in the link above has ever assisted you in a fight? Have you ever blocked with an arm held out to the side, or placed your hand in front of you with the precision of that form, or thrown a kick with such postured elan? There are a few movements that I use regularly, but mostly during clinching or throwing. Kung fu postures are mostly throws and takedowns, when you get to the nuts and bolts of it. Anyone who tells you this is a strike doesn't understand their forms, imo...

http://www.oslowutan.com/images/longfist.jpg


No. I know. Tan Tui is basic because it teaches the basics, balance, and coordination. That's true. I agree. But then why does every practitioner leave it at that. It's a very rare sight to see anyone actually put some reality into their Tan Tui. ****ty Tan Tui leads to ****ty Longfist, leads to ****ty everything.

SD's Tan Tui sets--the infamous "Short Forms"--are sets of practical punches done without the "basics" of Tan Tui theory...which is.....well, rudimentary theory that really isn't that useful in the long run. It's all about how you train it, and what your goals are. I imagine you guys do the same thing most long fist players do....learn Tan Tui because you have to, then move on to the more advanced material as soon as possible.

In general, most MMA fighters use about 8 hand strikes and 4 kicks. Fighting isn't complicated, even though it is.


Didn't you quit Longfist for MMA? Why was that? Answer honestly.No, I didn't quit long fist. I learned everything my teacher had to offer and moved on. Quite simply, I took my long fist into MMA to make it work better.

I don't do my forms that much anymore. Just enough to not lose them. But I do revisit them, whenever I see an application or technique that fits them.

There is nothing wrong with traditional Chinese fighting techniques. There are some serious problems with traditional training methods, though.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Two different roads traveled, yet two very different practitioners of two different arts reach the same conclusions. Why is that?

It's because forms keep us from falling into ruts we might normally fall into without "creative thinking." When I was doing MMA, I fell into a lot of ruts, and kung fu guys quickly disabused me of my illusions. Some of my MMA insights quickly disabused them of illusions--such that, sweeping me when I had better clinch work wouldn't lead to a counter throw, mount, and pound, or that they can take a couple leg kicks without checking them. Sometimes I let people sweep me to improve position. When I restarted BJJ, I made sure not to dismiss anything I had learned, but I saw the "bigger picture" as it were. I since quit BJJ, b/c I really only wanted to learn kung fu. But my kung fu is heavily hold-based.

Your assessment of Longfist is mine, almost to exactness. Is that an opinion you found in Longfist circles?

Not me. And I still practice traditional Tan Tui--almost the same set you posted, move-for-move. Sometimes very formally, as a general rule--the equation, and not the solution. But in reality, none of us believe that the form is fighting prowess. It's just a general rule. So what does the "real tried and true" form of Longfist have to do with anything? It's fighting unreality, with sharp motions that turn "sloppier" (viz. more accurate) when used in a fight scenario.

It's just a form. It helped my SD, and my SD greatly helped my "offical" Longfist become useful. I don't even count that form in the 1 1/2 forms I learned of trad. Longfist, b/c I knew it going into the art from SD, just with a different foundation.

So, there's hte point. If you don't learn the offical Qigong, but you practice Qigong of a certain system, or if you don't learn the offical set, but you practice the set of any certain system (I haven't seen a version of my trad. "Tan Tui" move-for-move exactly replicated ever in a video), it doesn't really make a difference at all, since forms are just rules. Before and after every class in SD, we kneel in a basic Zen meditation posture and breathe (length depends on teacher). Never did that in a Chinese school, b/c it's more of a Japanese interpretation of Chan, b/c SD has Japanese roots. But many Chinese MA's use Qigong as meditation; Sd uses both. Even if you miss out on one method--that is, before learning Chan meditation techniques in Ho Tien Chi/Shi Tien Chi, and diff. methods of flow breathing, which all SD students have to learn--you still get another.

that's why I scoff at standards held to a unique Chinese Indies MA with Japanese influence, as if the official Longfist Qigong is essential to our understanding of hte Tan Tui we do, or the Northern Shaolin we do, when it isn't, because our Qigong is embedded in the art, often form-for-form.

That's why this thread is r-tarded, and this webboard is a comic masterpiece. You either do SD or you don't, and you either judge things based on prejudice, or you judge them on experience. My experience is limited to my experience, but it is my experience, and it's justified based on firsthand knowledge.

[MasterKiller]

Two different roads traveled, yet two very different practitioners of two different arts reach the same conclusions. Why is that?.
Well, to paraphrase Flannery O'Conner, because everything that rises must converge.

[brucereiter]

those are general statements that i would agree with, as they have nothing to do with the comments i disagreed with.

:d ..............

[taai gihk yahn]

You know, it's kung fu deconstruction. Figures...a little Derrida, some Lao Tzu or Confucious thrown in the mix, and wham bam.....A standard of criticism that never asserts one fact except that all interpretation is misinterpretation.
Derideridada
Derideridead

[Judge Pen]

I'm amazed at how much posting goes on over the weekend. Isn't anyone out there training or enjoying family time?

[shen ku]

i am amazed by home much goes on during the week,, isn't anyone working??

[Leto]

We get it...the only important thing about martial arts is fighting, and anyone who thinks otherwise is silly or stupid.

It simply isn't appropriate to have an interest in Chinese philosophy or martial arts history. Forget about that stuff, it's a waste of time, no matter who you are. right?

It may not be interesting to everyone, but some people are "interested in collecting fragments of human experience, like a martial historian." Is that a big deal?

Why do people enjoy the things they enjoy? Who knows? You like fighting, I like meditating. Does every martial artist have to have the exact same interests?

I want to know where the forms I know came from, and if anyone else in the world practices anything similar, and what the differences are in the way they practice. That is interesting to me, regardless of whether it will be useful in combat.

[goju]

I'm amazed at how much posting goes on over the weekend. Isn't anyone out there training or enjoying family time?

what are you talking about willis?

im in the horse stance fighting off ninjas with one hand while i type this sh!t with the other :D

[Lokhopkuen]

Pretty/Ugly=Bad criteria for criticism.

Can you tell me, in all honesty, that one of those movements in the link above has ever assisted you in a fight? Have you ever blocked with an arm held out to the side, or placed your hand in front of you with the precision of that form, or thrown a kick with such postured elan?

No. I know. Tan Tui is basic because it teaches the basics, balance, and coordination. That's true. I agree. But then why does every practitioner leave it at that. It's a very rare sight to see anyone actually put some reality into their Tan Tui. ****ty Tan Tui leads to ****ty Longfist, leads to ****ty everything.

SD's Tan Tui sets--the infamous "Short Forms"--are sets of practical punches done without the "basics" of Tan Tui theory...which is.....well, rudimentary theory that really isn't that useful in the long run.

Didn't you quit Longfist for MMA? Why was that? Answer honestly.

Tan Tui is one of the essence forms of Northern Shaolin basics. Personally i find it very useful for building skills of mobility, flexibility and spacial awareness. As with Tai Chi I have never seen any two schools do it quite the same. I have seen it performed by some the same as in that video but I learned it with a different dynamic as well as subtle variations in the hand and arm postures.

[tattooedmonk]

This place cracks me up......

[tattooedmonk]

is the big meeting in Phoenix between the new independant schools and Master Grooms and Master Mullins....Anyone going or have an opinion about it???

[kwaichang]

I have an opinion, : show me the money, show me the money. KC

[tattooedmonk]

I have an opinion, : show me the money, show me the money. KCHMM.....???? I am sending you a PM...not a BM:p:eek::D

[Shaolin Wookie]

We get it...the only important thing about martial arts is fighting, and anyone who thinks otherwise is silly or stupid.


Just playing devil's advocate. If you want to learn the origins, go to a chan temple/monastery. It's really not that different than what you'll learn in Ho Tien Chi. Just some more rituals, some chanting, and some bald-headed chicks.

Anyways, the point was: if you're going to critique SD's Shaolin based on an outside source, it's almost irrelevant, b/c they're not the same forms, and hte foundational qigong is different. They're alike, but quibbling over them is useless when you can experience the difference firsthand. Once you do, you'll either find they're way different, b/c you're astounded by the precise details of the form (which is funny), LOL, or you kind of see they're the same.

That brings up the larger question of what constitutes northern shaolin then. That's what we discussed.

Anything else is just quibbling over the aesthetics of a form.

[BoulderDawg]

This is funny:

http://www.kungfucalendar.com/


There's no calendar out there like it!
13 killer kung fu babes!
9 deadly traditional Shaolin weapons!
Weapons and forms history
Birthdays of your favorite kung fu celebrities
Both Chinese and U.S. holidays
26 full-size, full-bleed, heavyweight pages

I saw this yesterday and just burst out laughing. I recognized several names on the testimonials. I don't know who's behind it but I'm assuming it's an SD guy.

Given recent events, what better way to promote Shao-lin Do than to put out a calender with a bunch of hot Kung Fu girls on it in gi tops but no bottoms!:D

[shen ku]

on the home page for the calender is the name of an old student of mine... nice to see he is still in ,, but kind of stange to see and teenager promoting a calander like this one??

[Shaolin Wookie]

"The ladies add a lot of grace and beauty to the weapons they're holding."

LOL. YES! I do need a calendar that tells me when Bruce Lee's birthday is! Hot ****! It's about time!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just tell me which SD or ST school it is. I think I need to transfer. That school's got some talent, man, with the exception of 1 or 2 aiight chicks. Some reeeeal talent.

[Judge Pen]

This is funny:

http://www.kungfucalendar.com/



I saw this yesterday and just burst out laughing. I recognized several names on the testimonials. I don't know who's behind it but I'm assuming it's an SD guy.

Given recent events, what better way to promote Shao-lin Do than to put out a calender with a bunch of hot Kung Fu girls on it in gi tops but no bottoms!:D

Well he says he's a second degree black belt in shao-lin so that sounds like SD, but I don't recognize the patches on the gis. Wait were there patches on the gi's, I was distracted.....

[BoulderDawg]

Well for obvious reasons they are not going to use SD patches. Even as it stands now it would not surprise me to learn that The' isn't screaming for his cut!:D

Also, I think this was done by somebody from the Phoenix school but I'm not sure.

It will be interesting to see how they do with this. I would have marketed it as a Martial arts calender instead of KF. Also the pictures are not very professionally done and I don't think they pushed the envelope quite enough. If you're going to make sexy pictures then make sexy pictures. I don't think this calender will sell. It's not a calender that you're going to hang in your office and if I wanted a calender with hot girls to hang in my home I'm going to get something better than this.

[tattooedmonk]

Well for obvious reasons they are not going to use SD patches. Even as it stands now it would not surprise me to learn that The' isn't screaming for his cut!:D

Also, I think this was done by somebody from the Phoenix school but I'm not sure.

It will be interesting to see how they do with this. I would have marketed it as a Martial arts calender instead of KF. Also the pictures are not very professionally done and I don't think they pushed the envelope quite enough. If you're going to make sexy pictures then make sexy pictures. I don't think this calender will sell. It's not a calender that you're going to hang in your office and if I wanted a calender with hot girls to hang in my home I'm going to get something better than this.From what I understand it was done by ShaolinGirl and some of the other students from the Phoenix School. I do not know if the models are actual students.... you are right about the patches. They are standard patches you can find online. I believe next years will be better!!!:D Why not offer to help make it better!?!

[krsd]

This was sent out to the Phoenix CSC students after the weekend visit by Elder Master Garry Mullins, Senior Master Gary Grooms, and Master Kevin Mullins.



Hello all our Phoenix students,

Thank you all for coming out on Thursday and Saturday to meet with and train with Elder Master Garry Mullins, Senior Master Gary Grooms, and Master Kevin Mullins.

I had the most exciting, challenging, enlightening, and fun training experience I can remember. I am so glad that many of you were able to share the training also.

Both Master Mullins and Master Grooms paid their own travel expenses to and from Phoenix and trained us all weekend for no fee at all. They have inspired me and have trained us and helped us purely to honor a repectful martial code.

I am looking forward to every class coming up and sharing with you more of what we learned this week!

Looking forward to training with you all. We have a lot in store for us. Don't miss it!

I will be honored to host these great Shaolin Masters again!

Jacob Rydberg

[tattooedmonk]

This was sent out to the Phoenix CSC students after the weekend visit by Elder Master Garry Mullins, Senior Master Gary Grooms, and Master Kevin Mullins.



Hello all our Phoenix students,

Thank you all for coming out on Thursday and Saturday to meet with and train with Elder Master Garry Mullins, Senior Master Gary Grooms, and Master Kevin Mullins.

I had the most exciting, challenging, enlightening, and fun training experience I can remember. I am so glad that many of you were able to share the training also.

Both Master Mullins and Master Grooms paid their own travel expenses to and from Phoenix and trained us all weekend for no fee at all. They have inspired me and have trained us and helped us purely to honor a repectful martial code.

I am looking forward to every class coming up and sharing with you more of what we learned this week!

Looking forward to training with you all. We have a lot in store for us. Don't miss it!

I will be honored to host these great Shaolin Masters again!

Jacob RydbergAWESOME!!!How did you , personally, enjoy the weekend???

[kwaichang]

Come into my web said the spider to the fly. KC

[tattooedmonk]

How you doin , man?? I dont see how these posts are helping, what would you do to change things and how???

[Shaolin Wookie]

From what I understand it was done by ShaolinGirl and some of the other students from the Phoenix School. I do not know if the models are actual students.... you are right about the patches. They are standard patches you can find online. I believe next years will be better!!!:D Why not offer to help make it better!?!

Sure. I'll pose next year.

[tattooedmonk]

Sure. I'll pose next year.Hopefully they arent that desperate!!!:p:eek::D

[krsd]

AWESOME!!!How did you , personally, enjoy the weekend???

I got a good workout, and was sore the next day. It was an enjoyable experience, and I enjoyed meeting new people. Some new workout things done, some good points on issues with forms that was being glossed over before which I found to be useful. There was also more of a focus on actually applying what was learned rather than working on memorizing a form which I found refreshing.

A lot of what was actually taught was what I had already learned elsewhere, but as with any workout it is easy to get lax and not actually stick to what you know you should be doing if you don't pay attention to it all the time.

I'd say that, given what I saw, I am pessimistically optimistic.

[goju]

well kwai when are you going to come down to colorado the months about half way in allready:D

[Facepalm]

KC if you actually come out here and spar Goju I think my life will be complete. :cool:

[kwaichang]

How will your life be complete.? TTM I am just very pessimistic as the political mess continues. Go Ju having money probs may be dec instead. for real .KC

[bodhi warrior]

possible su kong video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF__21PeASQ

[kwaichang]

heres some kicking for you, KC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76MgBFVGjiE

[kwaichang]

I like this one too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y85sHS89svs
Wow look how old he is any comments GoJU KC

[goju]

I like this one too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y85sHS89svs
Wow look how old he is any comments GoJU KC

cant see it i can however look at clips on video emo.com if you can find a link of it there post it

[kwaichang]

bummer man you got to get U tube. I will see what i can do KC

[brucereiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA1kqDnHQy8

[goju]

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=MTd5a3B1cWuRpRjItZmc&going-home-british-soldiers
if my memory serves me right the second shaolin do guy they talk to in this vid is one of the bb''s i sparred with while i was at csc

[goju]

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=MmJzYzlacWuRpTUFUZE0&glove-sparring-chinese-shaolin-center-denver-part-2
lol this is exactly why i didnt have hard time with sd guys

they didnt give us head gear or gloves when i was there though:D

[goju]

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=UEdxaWxGcWuRpSlIyUWM&glove-sparring-chinese-shaolin-center-denver-part-1


this is all i got to say to this
http://sleekupload.com/uploads_jpg/20/facepalm_4.jpg

[bodhi warrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA1kqDnHQy8


One of the SD groups on facebook has a better video of that demo. I couldn't believe how bad it is. I mean this is what people have been waiting for decades to learn. Instead of meteor fist it should be called the "go away fly" form. The short forms are better than that!

[SDJerry]

It looks to me like he's leaning back while moving forward and striking. Is this intentional? From a structure standpoint, that's generally a bad thing.

[brucereiter]

It looks to me like he's leaning back while moving forward and striking. Is this intentional? From a structure standpoint, that's generally a bad thing.

the way the hand is on the hip and the "skipping" or "shuffle" stepping look like they could be influenced by european fencing.

this style was always billed as "the 4th" internal style (excluding all other known internal styles).

-what is it that makes this style "internal"?
-were there applications taught along with the form?
-is that style just the one form?

i was expecting something more too...

[tattooedmonk]

It is four forms total......the video doesnt do the form any justice....

[BoulderDawg]

One of the SD groups on facebook has a better video of that demo. I couldn't believe how bad it is.

The quality is so poor all you can see is turning and fists pumping forward. I would not have posted it.


Anyway call it meteor fist, asteriod jab...it's still just basic punching from what little I can see.

[One student]

Whoever posted that should have gotten GMT's permission first.

But to clear up some misunderstanding as a result of posting poor video, that is only part of a part of a section or two of one of the four forms. The first part is not punching at all but finger and open hand strikes at multiple but specific pressure points. The second part is combintation of similar strikes to specific points with closed fists. And a demonstration of part of the "theatric" or "psychological" part of the form. Poor video + only limited excerpts of the material, = misunderstanding of something that cannot be explained by a tape.

[brucereiter]

Whoever posted that should have gotten GMT's permission first.
why? what do you think the video shows that sin the' would not like? why would sin the not want people to see him perform?



But to clear up some misunderstanding as a result of posting poor video, that is only part of a part of a section or two of one of the four forms. The first part is not punching at all but finger and open hand strikes at multiple but specific pressure points.

from a practical self defense stand point i think it is not realistic to expect to hit a series of pressure points against a resisting attacker. if self defense is not your goal in training that style i guess it is fine... if you disagree please point me in the direction of a single person who can do it.



Poor video + only limited excerpts of the material, = misunderstanding of something that cannot be explained by a tape.

i have seen the whole thing very clearly. dont make excuses............

[SDJerry]

I agree with Bruce, the pressure points tactic seems a little ambitious at best. I can see maybe one, but chain punching multiple is going to be very hard to pull off.

What about structure though, as I mentioned earlier? Are you supposed to lean back like that while attacking? I know the quality of the video prevents you from seeing his hands clearly but he's obviously leaning.

I'm like Bruce, I'd like to know what aspects classify set as internal. Is it because he's targeting pressure points?

The title of grandmaster implies that any movement seen should be considered correct and intentional so that is why I have questions.

[goju]

i understand it clearly i see a very stiff asian man performing with invisible nunchuks:D

[BoulderDawg]

why? what do you think the video shows that sin the' would not like? why would sin the not want people to see him perform?


The answer to that is "No, The' would NOT like to know that he is being filmed".

In fact, this is a good example of the culture he instills in the schools. Notice this guy said "They should have gotten his permission". He/she was truly upset that they dare film the GM.

Truth is it was a public demonstration. They didn't need his permission.

One time in Boulder a nine year old kid grabbed a camera during practice hour and was going around having a good time taking pictures. Jesus, you would have thought some rival school had sent a professional photographer in there to steal forms by the reaction of the people at the front desk. They started yelling and screaming for her to get out of the school and turn that camera OFF!

Even during test, people like to film their relatives and friends. They tolerate this but they absolutely hate it.

By the way, I have some good video of The' acutally teaching a form! I'm not going to release it but I figure it upsets them just knowing that it's out there!:D

[One student]

"why? what do you think the video shows that sin the' would not like? why would sin the not want people to see him perform?"

Its not a matter of what he would like, but as a matter or respect, I would not post video of YOU without your permission, nor post it in a way or with comments that you have not given me permission to do. And I may welll do a form or exercise one way for one audience, and another way for a different audience or for a different purpose, if I knew where it was going to be seen. He was showing an audience of his own potential students a small preview of something new he was teaching. It was posted, and then commented upon, as though that was the only and ultimate representation of the entire system and all of its aspects and demonstrated as if he was fighting or teaching it at that moment. May not have been fair.

"from a practical self defense stand point i think it is not realistic to expect to hit a series of pressure points against a resisting attacker. if self defense is not your goal in training that style i guess it is fine... if you disagree please point me in the direction of a single person who can do it."

No question, there is an entirely legitimate debate about the virtue of pressure point fighting. I am still considering the virtue of punching someone in the throat as hard and direct as I can, versus a focused two finger or dragon fist or phoenix eye or even direct punch strike to stomach point 9, for example. I entirely concede that is a legitimate debate. It may be that one whose physical skills may limit ability to do one (punch out) versus direct strike to a focused point. And the debate of disruption of body functions and systems by repeated coordinated sequenced strikes to particular points, dim mak/che ma, etc. It may well be also a way of fighting that a person can be disabled and stop fighting by a strike to point, as opposed to doing serious physical lasting injury by a punch, chop, kick, etc. Could it be a more pacifistic fighting style? Or a more deadly? I concede that is a legitimate debate, but practicing and studying the style is no more useless than practicing spear or hook swords or a lot of other exotic kung fu systems. It has its purposes.

"i have seen the whole thing very clearly. dont make excuses............"

Not excuses, except to respond to someone who described it as random punching or something like that, which it was not and I meant to point that out (which I could not tell from watching the video but know only because I've been to the classes). I will not judge a video performance of a method I have not studied and I am not familiar with, without conversing with someone who is to explain it to me. I wouldn't do that with many of the more exotic TCMA material, some of which I have only seen glimpses of, it would be too close minded of me to assume because it is not performed like something I am more familiar with it is wrong. I am also not so naive to think that a demonstration at an in-house tournament gathering is intended to show everything there is about the form or style for training or application purposes. That gets into the "demonstration" versus "exhibition" terms, doesn't it?

So yes I am defending, but only because some of the comments, not necessarily yours, demonstrated rash judgment, lack of understanding, and close-mindedness. Not that Meteor Fist is the greatest system of self defense ever invented, but that it is what it is, which is not fully reperesented by a minute of video in that context.

And as for internal part of it, I don't think it is revealing any secret that its history is said to be derived from selected methods of Pa Kua Chang, Hsing Ie, and Tai Chi Chuan. both as to body mechanics, fa jing, and chi kung. I'm not saying its the greatest thing since sliced bread, but that it is something different and is worthy of study and practice, depending on one's likes and capabilities. That's all.

[One student]

The answer to that is "No, The' would NOT like to know that he is being filmed".

In fact, this is a good example of the culture he instills in the schools. Notice this guy said "They should have gotten his permission". He/she was truly upset that they dare film the GM.

Truth is it was a public demonstration. They didn't need his permission.

One time in Boulder a nine year old kid grabbed a camera during practice hour and was going around having a good time taking pictures. Jesus, you would have thought some rival school had sent a professional photographer in there to steal forms by the reaction of the people at the front desk. They started yelling and screaming for her to get out of the school and turn that camera OFF!

Even during test, people like to film their relatives and friends. They tolerate this but they absolutely hate it.

By the way, I have some good video of The' acutally teaching a form! I'm not going to release it but I figure it upsets them just knowing that it's out there!:D

Here is an example of someone going out of their way to look at the most negative aspect they can of anything. "Filming is bad because it exposes one to criticism." I've gone to other performances, would have loved to have filmed it and taken it home and watched it over and over, for free. The people who perform and demonstate don't appreciate that, and for good reason. Right or wrong, what he teaches is his livelihood, and filming it, without permission, invades the rights in his material and his performance. Why do you think martial artists sell videos and DVD's? Why don't we all just go to a demonstration, seminar, movie, play, just film it from a distance or inside, and take it home, share it with others. Or bootleg the DVD/video. They don't mind that do they? One doesn't need video evidence to be criticized. This entire thread is proof of that.

[goju]

there was no rash judgement is was a god awful form that looks like it was made up and was preformed god awfully

[goju]

Here is an example of someone going out of their way to look at the most negative aspect they can of anything. "Filming is bad because it exposes one to criticism." I've gone to other performances, would have loved to have filmed it and taken it home and watched it over and over, for free. The people who perform and demonstate don't appreciate that, and for good reason. Right or wrong, what he teaches is his livelihood, and filming it, without permission, invades the rights in his material and his performance. Why do you think martial artists sell videos and DVD's? Why don't we all just go to a demonstration, seminar, movie, play, just film it from a distance or inside, and take it home, share it with others. Or bootleg the DVD/video. They don't mind that do they? One doesn't need video evidence to be criticized. This entire thread is proof of that.

honestly mate if that was put on dvd and sold alot of people would ask for their money back:D

no ones livelihood is at stake

[kwaichang]

Not meaning to be a Bible thumper. But. Let those w/o sin cast the 1st stone.Which most of you have done.
Anyway, GMT is not tight or inflexible. When he does demos he puts on a show , he doesnt try to necessarily do the form verbatum.
As far as pressure points , if you dont train them you wont hit them. If you aim for 5 and hit 2 then that may be sufficient. 5 is better though. You have to know where they are to hit them. KC

[goju]

Not meaning to be a Bible thumper. But. Let those w/o sin cast the 1st stone.Which most of you have done.
Anyway, GMT is not tight or inflexible. When he does demos he puts on a show , he doesnt try to necessarily do the form verbatum.
As far as pressure points , if you dont train them you wont hit them. If you aim for 5 and hit 2 then that may be sufficient. 5 is better though. You have to know where they are to hit them. KC

um no the man was very stiff an awkward during that form( i watched it on video emo.com)
you mean he does a version of it that doesnt suck?

no master in their right mind does multiple pressure point strikes it is too hard against amoving opponent one can certainly work but multiples is nothing more than bullshido

[kwaichang]

I disagree multiples is the only way to do it ones chances of hitting a point when attempting multiples is better, sort of like Babe Ruth and Homeruns, more time at bat more likely to hit a home run. No pressure point systems teach to strike at only one point. Goju , Shotokan included. KC

[goju]

try blindly poking someone multiple times in a flurry and see how well it works

the idea behind finger jabs is they will drop you opponent wether you hit the nerve or not because the force is concentrated to a point thus magnifying power and making multiple pokes stupid an impractical:D

goju or any other karate doesnt teach that bullshido in fact theres a clip of morio higaonna demonstrating dim mak and hes just preforming one strike not a multitude of silly shoo fly pokes

[BoulderDawg]

I disagree multiples is the only way to do it ones chances of hitting a point when attempting multiples is better, sort of like Babe Ruth and Homeruns, more time at bat more likely to hit a home run. No pressure point systems teach to strike at only one point. Goju , Shotokan included. KC

Using something a little different:

Which could be better: A hard open hand slap followed by another move? Or a slap followed by two or three tiny slaps?

For most of us hitting a pressure point involves a certain amount of luck. Add to that the fact that your opponent probably isn't going to stand still and let you try to find another pressure point. Nope! It's really all or nothing.

[kwaichang]

Different philosophy but some PP are so close a closed fist or palm will strike multiples. Your theory is flawed in that to train at higher levels you train against or with a Live opponent/partner. Most of who you may see doesnt train at this level and if they do they dont Spar in tournaments etc. It is this training that allows the person to hit the point or points. BTW everwonder why they dont allow pressure point hitting in MMA. it does work if done and trained correctly. KC

[brucereiter]

Not meaning to be a Bible thumper. But. Let those w/o sin cast the 1st stone.Which most of you have done.
what ever i have said is said with my real name (bruce reiter, from atlanta ga). people know how to find me and contact me. anything i say here i say with respect and would respectfully say to a persons face.

sin the' evan at his current age is in fantastic condition and in his prime was in even better. i like his ideas about "60 years old look and feel like 40 etc..."

but that does not mean he presents all of the material he shows well. and it also does not mean he has more than a basic knowledge of some aspects of martial arts.



Anyway, GMT is not tight or inflexible. When he does demos he puts on a show , he doesnt try to necessarily do the form verbatum.


that is the most silly thing i have heard.
sin the' is a "grandmaster" who has practiced martial arts for more than 50 years. even if he changes something for a demo he should in my opinion show good body method and often times he does not at least in relation to specific arts.
i have seen sin the' "perform" in many context. in demos for the public and also private demos for students, in one on one teaching situations etc etc ... he generally shows a similar "shen fa" or body method that is peculiar to him and with say tai chi, pakua, or hsing i very different than almost anyone i have seen out side of the system.

i can understand changing a move here and there for a demo so you can tell if someone learned your material from you or from just watching the demo but why put on a "show" why not just demo what good martial arts are.

i am not implying that sin the' cant fight, he may very well knock me the #$!% out...
sin the' has been doing martial arts longer than i have been alive. by many accounts from people i trust sin the' can hit VERY fast and hard and is a excellent fighter.



As far as pressure points , if you dont train them you wont hit them. If you aim for 5 and hit 2 then that may be sufficient. 5 is better though. You have to know where they are to hit them. KC

kc i think that is a impractical view point from a self defense stand point. there are far too many variables to depend on those type of tactics to defend your self.

i do like the idea of attack, attack, attack, attack and then keep on attacking. but the idea of hitting small pressure points on a moving, fighting, resisting, violent attacker is just not going to happen.

look at things objectively and with out emotion. let logic help you form your own opinion.

[goju]

they do have pressure poinbt attacks in mma

what do you think the "button" is?:D

[brucereiter]

Not excuses, except to respond to someone who described it as random punching or something like that, which it was not and I meant to point that out (which I could not tell from watching the video but know only because I've been to the classes).
how is your training in the form going? were you taught applications for it. if so can you explain any of them?




I will not judge a video performance of a method I have not studied and I am not familiar with, without conversing with someone who is to explain it to me.
wise... but i think it is ok to question. the senior people who have learned this forms have only been doing it for a short time so i doubt there is a high level of skill with it. so outside of sin the there seems to be no one to ask about it unless he would share with us who else does this form.





I am also not so naive to think that a demonstration at an in-house tournament gathering is intended to show everything there is about the form or style for training or application purposes. That gets into the "demonstration" versus "exhibition" terms, doesn't it? no matter what you call it i would have expectations higher than what was shown.




So yes I am defending, but only because some of the comments, not necessarily yours, demonstrated rash judgment, lack of understanding, and close-mindedness. Not that Meteor Fist is the greatest system of self defense ever invented, but that it is what it is, which is not fully reperesented by a minute of video in that context.

i agree people should avoid making rash statements. i only addressed that video since it is public. i have from a few other sources private videos of sin the' doing the forms and out of respect to sin the and to the people who gave them to me i would not show them in public. what i am getting at is i think i have seen sin the' show what the "ideal" is with this style and i find it lacking in many ways. i may find it lacking because i do not understand it.



And as for internal part of it, I don't think it is revealing any secret that its history is said to be derived from selected methods of Pa Kua Chang, Hsing Ie, and Tai Chi Chuan. both as to body mechanics, fa jing, and chi kung. I'm not saying its the greatest thing since sliced bread, but that it is something different and is worthy of study and practice, depending on one's likes and capabilities. That's all.

"depending on ones like" and their goals sure it could be great.

regarding the history of liu hsing. in his book sin the' says tai chi, pakua and hsing i are prerequisites for learning meteor fist, if that is the case then why did he teach the leopard fors to prep instead of what he claimed was tradition?

in addition it says in more recent times people used rubber resistance bands to train it.
who are these people? where are they? since in the 4 decades sin the' has been teaching in the usa he has only recently taught anyone the form as far as i know.

[brucereiter]

BTW everwonder why they dont allow pressure point hitting in MMA. it does work if done and trained correctly. KC

think objectively.

point me to a single person who has actaully used pressure point strikes to defend from a violent attack as have been spoken about in relation to meteor fist in any kind of fight, sport, self defense, war, police, bouncers, body guards or any other person.

here are the rules for the ufc as stated on their site. their rules say nothing about pressure point hitting. there are limitations on some places you can hit but there are hundreds of pressure points available that are not in any of the forbidden areas

http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
>>Weight classes: [Top]
Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.

Bout duration: [Top]
All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
Rounds will be five minutes in duration.
A one-minute rest period will occur between each round.

Fouls: [Top]
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Ways To Win: [Top]
1. Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Split decision [One judge picks one fighter, the other two judges pick the other fighter].
Majority decision [Two of three judges pick the same fighter as the winner, the final judge says the fight was a draw].
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
4. Technical decision.
5. Technical draw.
6. Disqualification.
7. Forfeit.
8. No contest.


Referee may Restart the round: [Top]
If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work to improve position or finish. <<

[One student]

kc i think that is a impractical view point from a self defense stand point. there are far too many variables to depend on those type of tactics to defend your self.

i do like the idea of attack, attack, attack, attack and then keep on attacking. but the idea of hitting small pressure points on a moving, fighting, resisting, violent attacker is just not going to happen.

look at things objectively and with out emotion. let logic help you form your own opinion.

But: We have all trained in combinations regularly, punch, punch, chop, kick, punch, etc. Further, we are trained to precisely focus attacks to a target and distance and depth of penetration, as in breaking. What is the difference in throwing six blows, at just "close enough" to an intended target to hurt someone, versus throwing the same number of blows, but at a more precise target. Instead of fist to anywhere close to the nose to damage someone, a single knuckle to Stomach 4? And then instead of three rapid fire punches followed by a kick, three precision strikes to three points and a kick to another? Isn't the opponent still trying to dodge the blows, move the head, duck, etc. Its still a moving target. Yes it is more difficult to be more precise and focused, and yes it requires more skill, or at least a different kind of skill, but so does chain whip compared to short stick. Is it not within the debate to suggest it is in fact a different degree or higher level of skill, but not unattainable? Is it just another challenge to try, but a worthy one?

And what is the judgment of one who can punch and kick with the best of them, versus one who's skill is such that they can strike with such precision as is called for in pressure point fighting? As long as the "science" of it has been around, someone thinks there is something to it.

And we've seen the practitioners who come in to attack and who's hands are fast enough to put together multiple blows very quickly. What if instead of quick punches, those were all focused to specific points? Kick someone's leg to distract or disarm or some other "stun," and then quickly hit specific points? It doesn't sound that farfetched to me, although I certainly cannot claim such mastery, but certainly just punch and kick really hard and fast is a whole lot easier and a skill that can be attained much quicker. Same thing though is true in comparing basic kickboxing, versus practical pa kua chang or tai chi chuan. Doesn't mean its not worth learing or trying.

And I have read and heard in more than one place that much of tai chi chuan for example includes precise pressure point attacks.

How much practical difference in kicking one in the groin, and kicking one at ren mai 1? Or punching one in the eye, or bladder 1? Throat, or Stomach 9, Ren Mai 22 or 23 or 24? Not sure, but it is a question worth asking.

[One student]

how is your training in the form going? were you taught applications for it. if so can you explain any of them?


wise... but i think it is ok to question. the senior people who have learned this forms have only been doing it for a short time so i doubt there is a high level of skill with it. so outside of sin the there seems to be no one to ask about it unless he would share with us who else does this form.



no matter what you call it i would have expectations higher than what was shown.



i agree people should avoid making rash statements. i only addressed that video since it is public. i have from a few other sources private videos of sin the' doing the forms and out of respect to sin the and to the people who gave them to me i would not show them in public. what i am getting at is i think i have seen sin the' show what the "ideal" is with this style and i find it lacking in many ways. i may find it lacking because i do not understand it.



"depending on ones like" and their goals sure it could be great.

regarding the history of liu hsing. in his book sin the' says tai chi, pakua and hsing i are prerequisites for learning meteor fist, if that is the case then why did he teach the leopard fors to prep instead of what he claimed was tradition?

in addition it says in more recent times people used rubber resistance bands to train it.
who are these people? where are they? since in the 4 decades sin the' has been teaching in the usa he has only recently taught anyone the form as far as i know.

1. My practice is going, although I can't say a major part of it is this material, although I am glad I learned it and have it to work on. Also, it would not be my place to attempt to teach it, other than regurgitating what I was shown and told and given, and I am still a firm believer that one does not pass on material without the teacher's permission. That's just me, I know others disagree. As for applications, "hit this point like this" is somewhat self-explanatory, although there is always room for reading more into almost any form than maybe even the creator of it intended. Again, not my place to say.

2. Correct that because this material is in its infancy among those it was taught to, other than those who may have had private instruction its interpretation and application is also in its more infant stages.

3. As for Golden Leopard, can only suggest that because it is also pressure point and rapid fire intensive, it was an appropriate prior step; and also that by the time GMT taught MF, pa kua, tai chi, and hsing ie had already been out for years, suspect just about everyone in the room had already had it.

4. As for questioning the methods, I have also been a firm believer that a student should not question the teacher's methods. Once a student thinks he/she is capable of that, they need a new teacher. As Mr. Miyagi said, "I am teacher, you are student. I say, you do. No question." He got his house remodeled, but the kid did learn some things.

5. As for rubber band training, don't know who else (I got to believe it would be the people he learned it with/from), can't say it mattered much too me.

6. Expectations are what they are. When I see the old masters on tape doing stuff, I don't "expect" them to perform like a 20 year old, I just marvel at what they do, even though my understanding of it is limited. I would not think, "I can move faster than that," or "I would think they would be 'better' than that." I tend to believe they know what they are doing, they know more than I do, and they can teach me something I don't know, regardless of what they look like when they do it. I'm okay with that.

[One student]

think objectively.

point me to a single person who has actaully used pressure point strikes to defend from a violent attack as have been spoken about in relation to meteor fist in any kind of fight, sport, self defense, war, police, bouncers, body guards or any other person.

here are the rules for the ufc as stated on their site. their rules say nothing about pressure point hitting. there are limitations on some places you can hit but there are hundreds of pressure points available that are not in any of the forbidden areas

http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
>>Weight classes: [Top]
Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.

Bout duration: [Top]
All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
Rounds will be five minutes in duration.
A one-minute rest period will occur between each round.

Fouls: [Top]
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Ways To Win: [Top]
1. Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Split decision [One judge picks one fighter, the other two judges pick the other fighter].
Majority decision [Two of three judges pick the same fighter as the winner, the final judge says the fight was a draw].
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
4. Technical decision.
5. Technical draw.
6. Disqualification.
7. Forfeit.
8. No contest.


Referee may Restart the round: [Top]
If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work to improve position or finish. <<

Take any generally accepted pressure point attack chart. Mark out the target areas outlawed in UFC, for example. I would guess 75% of the designated points are off limits. I'm sure its just a coincindence. But like I said, how much different is kicking one in the groin, or kicking one at Ren Mai 1? Or striking the throat, or strking Stomach 9? You are both (KC and Bruce) correct: MMA does prohibit point attacks, in the prohibied areas; but does not in the allowed areas.

I wonder when I see them fight, what a ref or judge (or opponent) would do if an attack was made with the dragon fist, phoenix eye fist, or combination (two knuckle), or even the leopard fist (four knuckle), to the liver, diaphragm, under the jaw, or other "permitted" area.

[brucereiter]

But: We have all trained in combinations regularly, punch, punch, chop, kick, punch, etc. Further, we are trained to precisely focus attacks to a target and distance and depth of penetration, as in breaking. What is the difference in throwing six blows, at just "close enough" to an intended target to hurt someone, versus throwing the same number of blows, but at a more precise target. Instead of fist to anywhere close to the nose to damage someone, a single knuckle to Stomach 4? And then instead of three rapid fire punches followed by a kick, three precision strikes to three points and a kick to another? Isn't the opponent still trying to dodge the blows, move the head, duck, etc. Its still a moving target. Yes it is more difficult to be more precise and focused, and yes it requires more skill, or at least a different kind of skill, but so does chain whip compared to short stick. Is it not within the debate to suggest it is in fact a different degree or higher level of skill, but not unattainable? Is it just another challenge to try, but a worthy one?

And what is the judgment of one who can punch and kick with the best of them, versus one who's skill is such that they can strike with such precision as is called for in pressure point fighting? As long as the "science" of it has been around, someone thinks there is something to it.

And we've seen the practitioners who come in to attack and who's hands are fast enough to put together multiple blows very quickly. What if instead of quick punches, those were all focused to specific points? Kick someone's leg to distract or disarm or some other "stun," and then quickly hit specific points? It doesn't sound that farfetched to me, although I certainly cannot claim such mastery, but certainly just punch and kick really hard and fast is a whole lot easier and a skill that can be attained much quicker. Same thing though is true in comparing basic kickboxing, versus practical pa kua chang or tai chi chuan. Doesn't mean its not worth learing or trying.

And I have read and heard in more than one place that much of tai chi chuan for example includes precise pressure point attacks.

How much practical difference in kicking one in the groin, and kicking one at ren mai 1? Or punching one in the eye, or bladder 1? Throat, or Stomach 9, Ren Mai 22 or 23 or 24? Not sure, but it is a question worth asking.

thanks for keeping it civil. i disagree with a few of your points but your posts are very rational. i appreciate that.

i am not saying that pressure points are not useful in any way, what i am saying is that in my opinion it would take such a high level of skill to use those tactics to defend yourself from violent attack. there are too many variables.

clothing can get in the way, some people do not respond to the pain of pressure points, if your fingers are not conditioned and you strike fast and hard with your finger tips they will break...... etc etc......

as i said i have not seen any single factual, verifiable account of these tactics (meaning pressure point fighting as explained by sin the') being used to defend from a violent attack. legends and stories do not count.

this is not to say that you cant hit the nose followed buy the solar plexus followed by the groin against a violent attack. most arts train tactics such as that and you see it on the "street" all of the time from thugs etc and you see it in sports minus the groin part of it.

i guess it all depends on your goals for training as to weather you want to take the time to train these tactics beyond just doing the movements in the form.

[Golden Tiger]

Bruce, with all due respect of course, the same could be said for you and you interest only in the internal arts. Quoting from your post, if one were to exchange internal arts for pressure point hitting, well, it would appear that you were wasting all of your time training. While it may be the opinion of some that pp training is not practical for fighting, more would agree that internal arts aren't.


i am not saying that internal MA are not useful in any way, what i am saying is that in my opinion it would take such a high level of skill to use those tactics to defend yourself from violent attack. there are too many variables.

as i said i have not seen any single factual, verifiable account of these tactics (meaning internal MA) being used to defend from a violent attack. legends and stories do not count.

i guess it all depends on your goals for training as to weather you want to take the time to train these tactics beyond just doing the movements in the form.

[kwaichang]

In 1978 i was in Nashville Tn. I was attacked at a theatre, by this guy at this time I was and had bneen taught that all MA was pressure points. Maybe just my teachers opinion. Anyway he attacked I was taught to hit certain points and I did it was Liver 13 and St 9 he went down and I ran off. It was over. the guy was big and strong. Luck maybe but I was taught the combo and I hit it, I was trained that way.
In MA one is taught to focus Chi or Ki in the area from the 1st 2 knuckles or what ever striking area of the body. It can be done if you take the time to do it. Here is a fun drill have someone blow bubbles alot of them and see how many you can burst with one finger or kick with the big toe in each time before they areall gone. A fun game but very functional. Also there are 720 points in the body not all are effective to hit. But that is alot KC

[SDJerry]

1. My practice is going, although I can't say a major part of it is this material, although I am glad I learned it and have it to work on. Also, it would not be my place to attempt to teach it, other than regurgitating what I was shown and told and given, and I am still a firm believer that one does not pass on material without the teacher's permission. That's just me, I know others disagree. As for applications, "hit this point like this" is somewhat self-explanatory, although there is always room for reading more into almost any form than maybe even the creator of it intended. Again, not my place to say.

2. Correct that because this material is in its infancy among those it was taught to, other than those who may have had private instruction its interpretation and application is also in its more infant stages.

3. As for Golden Leopard, can only suggest that because it is also pressure point and rapid fire intensive, it was an appropriate prior step; and also that by the time GMT taught MF, pa kua, tai chi, and hsing ie had already been out for years, suspect just about everyone in the room had already had it.

4. As for questioning the methods, I have also been a firm believer that a student should not question the teacher's methods. Once a student thinks he/she is capable of that, they need a new teacher. As Mr. Miyagi said, "I am teacher, you are student. I say, you do. No question." He got his house remodeled, but the kid did learn some things.

5. As for rubber band training, don't know who else (I got to believe it would be the people he learned it with/from), can't say it mattered much too me.

6. Expectations are what they are. When I see the old masters on tape doing stuff, I don't "expect" them to perform like a 20 year old, I just marvel at what they do, even though my understanding of it is limited. I would not think, "I can move faster than that," or "I would think they would be 'better' than that." I tend to believe they know what they are doing, they know more than I do, and they can teach me something I don't know, regardless of what they look like when they do it. I'm okay with that.

To question is to seek understanding.

[kwaichang]

To question yes to judge w/o understanding is just not too smart. I feel most people dont understand systems or forms from the systems and what they are trying to convey. KC

[SDJerry]

To question yes to judge w/o understanding is just not too smart. I feel most people dont understand systems or forms from the systems and what they are trying to convey. KC

So you're saying most people don't understand forms and their underlying priciples but you do?

[brucereiter]

Bruce, with all due respect of course, the same could be said for you and you interest only in the internal arts. Quoting from your post, if one were to exchange internal arts for pressure point hitting, well, it would appear that you were wasting all of your time training. While it may be the opinion of some that pp training is not practical for fighting, more would agree that internal arts aren't.


i am not saying that internal MA are not useful in any way, what i am saying is that in my opinion it would take such a high level of skill to use those tactics to defend yourself from violent attack. there are too many variables.

as i said i have not seen any single factual, verifiable account of these tactics (meaning internal MA) being used to defend from a violent attack. legends and stories do not count.

i guess it all depends on your goals for training as to weather you want to take the time to train these tactics beyond just doing the movements in the form.

hi gt,

it is true and a good point you bring up many people do say ima is not a practical method of self defense. in many cases the nay sayers are correct. in my opinion if i only trained with/against people who practice ima i would be very limited in my usage and understanding. but with testing "your"/my stuff out and experimenting using the tactics i have learned against people with different skill sets, tactics and martial attributes many arts including "pressure point fighting" can be useful. but isolated from outside influence you may limit your understanding no matter what art you study. i guess my "problem" with pp's is the romantic notions people have about using them if a 6'2" 280lb violent thug is attacking you...

[kwaichang]

SD no what I am saying is it is apparent that, as far as I can tell no one understands the concept GMT is teaching with the small piece of form shown. Or with pressure point fighting in general. It is taught in the military at higher levels for a reason. I do not feel I am the only one who understands form usage or philosophy. I do understand it in a different way but that is just environmental. Bruce I agree with your last statement except I feel if trained properly then it doesnt matter how big the dude is. It is the points that are hit that matter. KC

[BoulderDawg]

I'm just wondering why he would demo such a complex and advanced form to a group of potential students. Especially since they were so far away they could not pick up on the details even if they knew what they were for.

Also the music and smoke was a bit rediculous!:D

I don't know.....

I think it's crazy to promote meteor fist and try to teach it to students who are still having trouble with the basics. That's like trying to teach brain surgery to a freshman in college.

[goju]

i saw nothing complicated or internal about that fprm
in fact i beleive that is one of the forms that calls sd's legitamacy into question and rightfully so

[kwaichang]

Has anyone posting or commenting seen the entire form??? If not then other than blatant comments then no one knows what they are looking at. Or what is being done. KC

[goju]

Has anyone posting or commenting seen the entire form??? If not then other than blatant comments then no one knows what they are looking at. Or what is being done. KC

why would anyone want to see more that was enough

you mean to tell me the rest doesnt look rediculous when its played through?

[kwaichang]

Ok so Go Ju is out of it anyone else?? KC

[brucereiter]

Has anyone posting or commenting seen the entire form??? If not then other than blatant comments then no one knows what they are looking at. Or what is being done. KC

i have only seen the "first road". i was not taught it but was given a few videos from a few different people of sin the doing it. they were not at a demo i would imagine it was made for instruction of students/teachers

[brucereiter]

Take any generally accepted pressure point attack chart. Mark out the target areas outlawed in UFC, for example. I would guess 75% of the designated points are off limits. I'm sure its just a coincindence. But like I said, how much different is kicking one in the groin, or kicking one at Ren Mai 1? Or striking the throat, or strking Stomach 9? You are both (KC and Bruce) correct: MMA does prohibit point attacks, in the prohibied areas; but does not in the allowed areas.

I wonder when I see them fight, what a ref or judge (or opponent) would do if an attack was made with the dragon fist, phoenix eye fist, or combination (two knuckle), or even the leopard fist (four knuckle), to the liver, diaphragm, under the jaw, or other "permitted" area.

http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/pressure-points-strikes.html
the above link has a very simple point "map" of the several shown (about 37) only about 8 would not be allowed in the ufc. why do you think the ufc teams are not using these ideas.

i am not sure if the "fist shapes" you mentioned are allowed.

[kwaichang]

The UFC uses gloves that would take away from alot of the fist position strikes. Thus shorter fights less fan base and less money.

I trained with a man who was trained in Japan at the shoto-Kai I believe, he said they did a "more" original type of Shoto kan all their fists were middle knockle strikes. alot of the punches in MMA would be more effective to pressure points w/o gloves etc.
I feel the Leopard forms and Liu Shing forms are for a different purpose instead of direct attack to a simple point. KC

[brucereiter]

The UFC uses gloves that would take away from alot of the fist position strikes. KC

this could be a problem.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=UEdxaWxGcWuRpSlIyUWM&glove-sparring-chinese-shaolin-center-denver-part-1


this is all i got to say to this
http://sleekupload.com/uploads_jpg/20/facepalm_4.jpg

Good god, that's horrible. Really poor sparring. There's nothing good to say about it frankly.

[One student]

http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/pressure-points-strikes.html
the above link has a very simple point "map" of the several shown (about 37) only about 8 would not be allowed in the ufc. why do you think the ufc teams are not using these ideas.

i am not sure if the "fist shapes" you mentioned are allowed.

I think my estimate of 75% of attack points out of the permitted area may have been too high, but my point is made. Many of the primary attack points are in the groin/pelvis, the neck/throat, too close to the eyes, or along the base of the skull, neck, and spine.

Also, don't MMA gloves just cover the first knuckles of the fist, so that grip/grappling not overly limited, and so would not effect the knuckles of the next joint up (the "proximal interphalangial joint"), the focal point of the dragon fist, the phoenix eye fist, the combination of those, or the leopard fist. I didn't see anything on Bruce's "rules" list that said a fighter can't strike with that weapon. You don't see much open hand chop either, do you?

As for why MMA coaches don't train that, I can only guess that if they don't already have that training, they don't want to take away from their limited training time to get in a ring or the time away from basic striking, ground fighting, and conditioning. Or they just don't know the techniques, or like so many, don't believe in it.

[One student]

To question is to seek understanding.

"Teacher [or sifu or sensei or master or whatever], what does this mean?" "Is this correct?" "Shoud I do it like this?" That's one thing. You are correct.

But: "Teacher, shouldn't you be teaching it like this instead?" "Why aren't you teaching me this method first?" "Can't we skip that and go on to this instead?" "Are you sure we should be doing it this way?" That is something different.

Asking questions is not what I meant. Questioning the Teacher's credibility, methods, or knowledge, that is when you find a new teacher -- or they do it for you.

[brucereiter]

Good god, that's horrible. Really poor sparring. There's nothing good to say about it frankly.

contrast that with this ...

http://www.youtube.com/user/mr1sifu#p/a/u/0/7v7i37wzeDU
i think the students in the above clip did some very good work and tim nance gave a excellent lesson.

[brucereiter]

I think my estimate of 75% of attack points out of the permitted area may have been too high, but my point is made. Many of the primary attack points are in the groin/pelvis, the neck/throat, too close to the eyes, or along the base of the skull, neck, and spine..

on another note regarding those type of targets and self defense.
a friend/teacher/training partner of mine told me about the "3 r's"
(i dont know if he made them up or learned it from someone else )
retreat
restrain
ruin

now the hard choice in self defense is to know which is the correct choice. for me trying to have compassion for all i try and chose retreat but sometimes the most compassionate thing is to ruin.

at any rate for i do not want to hit a persons throat or eyes. if it is my only way out a man will do what a man has to do but blinding another human would not sit easy with me.

[Judge Pen]

contrast that with this ...

http://www.youtube.com/user/mr1sifu#p/a/u/0/7v7i37wzeDU
i think the students in the above clip did some very good work and tim nance gave a excellent lesson.

Having taken a similar seminar from Master Nance in the past I can say that he is an excellent teacher with a very pragmatic approach. The parts of that video which showed free sparring were much better than the Colorado CSC. Not perfect but generally the students showed better inensity and intent with their technique. I saw some good, some bad and some sloppy, but that's to be expected.

On pressure points, my theory used to be this--if I can knock you out then I can poke you wherever the helI I want. But its refined itslef somewhat--I don't trust pressure points. In my experience its hard enough to hit a resisting opponent in the nose, throat, groin or solor plexus to worry about liver 9 or stomach 13; however, and this has probably been alluded to already, targeting those areas often coincide with areas that you are trained to aid for anyway so trying to refine your target (or more properly identifying it) isn't bad, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of solid power, speed and body mechnics behind any blow. Aim for what hurts, call it whatever you want, and hit it hard, fast and often. Typically hard strikes to soft targets work best and if you get a hold of your opponent, don't let go until he makes you or he can't fight anymore. That's just my philosophy on the whole matter.

[SDJerry]

targeting those areas often coincide with areas that you are trained to aid for anyway so trying to refine your target (or more properly identifying it) isn't bad, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of solid power, speed and body mechnics behind any blow.

I agree, and you make a great point. The delivery method is more important than the exact location of the strike down to a couple milimeters. If it's not correct then it doesn't matter where you strike.

The delivery method is that "body method" I've often heard Bruce refer to. Your body must move as a unit and your structure must be correct. You should feel a connection from your fist all the way to the ground. Once you start to learn this or see it displayed properly, it is very easy to spot it's absence.

The human body is pretty resilient and can withstand a lot, especially with adrenaline flowing, so if you want to end a fight you have to be able to generate a lot of power. Yes, soft tissue takes less, however you need to maintain a structure at all times that you can defend and attack from.

[kwaichang]

Bill the Superfoot Wallace was a great left leg kicker, why, he had an injury to his other knee. Necessety breeds improvement and takes time. PP training has slow results but is effective but one has to take the time both Physical and mental to know when and how to use it. Most people arent that interested in doing that. If one were to train in the PP tech consistently from the beginning then I feel it would be as easy as punching someone in the gut as it would be to hit a single or multiple points. Most arent willing to do that type of training. It seems. KC

[brucereiter]

Bill the Superfoot Wallace was a great left leg kicker, why, he had an injury to his other knee. Necessety breeds improvement and takes time. PP training has slow results but is effective but one has to take the time both Physical and mental to know when and how to use it. Most people arent that interested in doing that. If one were to train in the PP tech consistently from the beginning then I feel it would be as easy as punching someone in the gut as it would be to hit a single or multiple points. Most arent willing to do that type of training. It seems. KC

i guess you and i have had a very different experience with violent attacks.
nothing is going to work 100% of the time and i for sure have many low probability "moves" that i practice and try to understand and improve. but for self defense i tend to focus on a few high probability "moves". again all of this depends on your goals.
in my opinion pressure point fighting at least the way i think you are explaining it would be low probability for example if you "plan" to hit point x,y,z...

i like bill wallace kicking method. he only throws a few kinds of kick and all have the basically same setup so the person being kicked knows a kick is coming but does not know which one until it is too late.

[brucereiter]

I agree, and you make a great point. The delivery method is more important than the exact location of the strike down to a couple milimeters. If it's not correct then it doesn't matter where you strike.

The delivery method is that "body method" I've often heard Bruce refer to. Your body must move as a unit and your structure must be correct. You should feel a connection from your fist all the way to the ground. Once you start to learn this or see it displayed properly, it is very easy to spot it's absence.

The human body is pretty resilient and can withstand a lot, especially with adrenaline flowing, so if you want to end a fight you have to be able to generate a lot of power. Yes, soft tissue takes less, however you need to maintain a structure at all times that you can defend and attack from.

when i refer to body method or "shen fa" if ya want to speak some fancy chinese. i am talking about a method that is specific to the art you are developing. for example a hsing i punch has a different set of standards and method than a tai chi chuan punch.
in self defense it does not matter as long as you keep you and yours safe but in practice and in teaching i think it is important to be clear about what makes each of these styles special and worth your effort and to also keep them seperate until you have enough personal understanding to mix them as you please, at that point it is your art.

you are right the human body is very tough. it can take a lot of damage and keep on going (although sometimes people just drop from the "right" punch.)
in many cases martial artists who have never been in a self defense situation have a false sense of security about what they may be able to do.
:)

[SDJerry]

when i refer to body method or "shen fa" if ya want to speak some fancy chinese. i am talking about a method that is specific to the art you are developing. for example a hsing i punch has a different set of standards and method than a tai chi chuan punch.
in self defense it does not matter as long as you keep you and yours safe but in practice and in teaching i think it is important to be clear about what makes each of these styles special and worth your effort and to also keep them seperate until you have enough personal understanding to mix them as you please, at that point it is your art.

you are right the human body is very tough. it can take a lot of damage and keep on going (although sometimes people just drop from the "right" punch.)
in many cases martial artists who have never been in a self defense situation have a false sense of security about what they may be able to do.
:)

We had a very good chen player stop by one time. He mentioned that the same coiling principles in his tai chi exist in hung gar. In that sense, the power delivery system is very similar even though tactics might very... know what I mean? I thought that's what ya meant by body method. I admit I know nothing about the internals other than the internal aspects of the hung.

[kwaichang]

But Bill Wallace could put his kick on your chin when ever he wanted. Why Trainiing, speed, and accuracy much like PP training. KC

[brucereiter]

But Bill Wallace could put his kick on your chin when ever he wanted. Why Trainiing, speed, and accuracy much like PP training. KC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI69stoIu2c&feature=related

watch bill wallace as he fails to do what you say he can do when ever he wanted.
why did he fail you may ask? it is because joe lewis wanted to win too. even though he did lose.

having the accuracy to strike your chin is very different than having the accuracy to strike ren 24 followed by ren 14 followed by cn 4...

[brucereiter]

We had a very good chen player stop by one time. He mentioned that the same coiling principles in his tai chi exist in hung gar. In that sense, the power delivery system is very similar even though tactics might very... know what I mean? I thought that's what ya meant by body method. I admit I know nothing about the internals other than the internal aspects of the hung.

what you said there is a aspect of what i am talking about and not in my opinion wrong. there are many similarities with different arts but in my opinion if you first understand the differences then you will be able to see what is special about each art.

[SDJerry]

what you said there is a aspect of what i am talking about and not in my opinion wrong. there are many similarities with different arts but in my opinion if you first understand the differences then you will be able to see what is special about each art.

I'm a progammer. We first take the properties that are the same and abstract them out :) if the delivery methods are the same then each art is an extension of that method. So, are the differences what make them special or just different? Hehehe

[brucereiter]

I'm a progammer. We first take the properties that are the same and abstract them out :) if the delivery methods are the same then each art is an extension of that method. So, are the differences what make them special or just different? Hehehe

think of it this way:

you train sprinting, foot ball and base ball differently all 3 activities teach you to run but if you want to be a olympic sprinter you will not do that by training foot ball running methods.

all three methods involve sprinting and will teach you to run..... why dont olympic sprinting trainers send their people to baseball camp?

maybe a bad analogy but the internet has communication limitations.:)

[kwaichang]

Bruce, I think you and I were watching a different Bill Wallace fight looked like your clip proved my point. KC

[goju]

wallace was very overrated as far as kicking ability goes

the one advatage he had that made him seem like a"super foot" was the fact he could kick slightly better than the guys he was competing against

[kwaichang]

You never saw Anthony Elmore or Thomas La Puppet or Benny the Jet I guess. Having seen him fight I can assure you he was much much better than alot of todays kickers. KC

[goju]

You never saw Anthony Elmore or Thomas La Puppet or Benny the Jet I guess. Having seen him fight "I can assure you he was much much better than alot of todays kickers." KC

lol sorry i just had to laugh at that one:D

[brucereiter]

Bruce, I think you and I were watching a different Bill Wallace fight looked like your clip proved my point. KC

i guess if we sat and had a beer and talked in person i could express what i am trying to say to you. but it does not seem to be working here.

how many misses did bill have just in that one clip? which was the first one that came up in a google search?

i think he uses the kick face / kick balls very well but it is not the kind of pressure point accuracy you talk about...

next topic please.

[kwaichang]

Goju I got to ask??? Do you think you are a better kicker than Bill wallace? Or Benny the Jet?? Got to know
Bruce I know what you are saying but I can also see the scores. If you hit at 5-8 points chances are you will get one or 2 and maybe the ones in thye sequence yopu speak of. OK next subject let me think. KC

[goju]

Goju I got to ask??? Do you think you are a better kicker than Bill wallace? Or Benny the Jet?? Got to know
Bruce I know what you are saying but I can also see the scores. If you hit at 5-8 points chances are you will get one or 2 and maybe the ones in thye sequence yopu speak of. OK next subject let me think. KC

yes actually i do think i am a way better kicker compared to super foot as far as benny i dont remember watching him fight or train so i cant answer that:D

[kwaichang]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Now that is funny. KC and you call me delusional. whew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8elyh6jbuIg
Look at that hand and foot speed for an old man

[brucereiter]

yes actually i do think i am a way better kicker compared to super foot as far as benny i dont remember watching him fight or train so i cant answer that:D

wow! that is a bold statement! i would love to see what your practice actually looks like.

benny is pretty good from what i hear... a friend of mine is a black belt under him and speaks highly of his skills in kickboxing.

[goju]

i can kick with both legs and am more fluid and powerful trust me

[goju]

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=N1duM2xkcWuRpSWlYTGc&bill-wallace-s-full-contact-fights
i dunno he looks very stiff here and awkward not to mention he doesnt pull his kicks back after he throws them and leaves them hanging out there( a sign of a bad kicker) his stance is also very side ways

i would say theres probably quite a few people on this board who are better kickers than him

[goju]

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=OFkzLVNUcWuRpdU1iVkU&taekwondo-ko-best
and then when you compare superfoots kicks to this for example you see why i am not impressed with his kicking abilities

[tattooedmonk]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa!!!!!!

[goju]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa!!!!!!
ah so you just saw the meteor fist demo vid huh:D

[goju]

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=enN5aW5FcWuRpdGhHaW8&dominique-valera-vs-bill-wallace-in-germany-1992
lol notice how he almost falls on his face every time he tries to throw a hook kick?
whats with the double paddy cake paddy cake kick after it either?

[kwaichang]

If you think those pop corn kicks of your clip is good , I give up. KC

[Baqualin]

10,000 Lotus Blooming coming in March!!!
BQ

[Judge Pen]

I saw that. I thought Master Sin was reluctant to teach this form because you needed to be really ripped with specific muscle group control in order to do this form?

[Baqualin]

I saw that. I thought Master Sin was reluctant to teach this form because you needed to be really ripped with specific muscle group control in order to do this form?

According to EML there's no point striking or force used at all.....it's an inhancement to meteor fist....it's all about learning how to use your Chi to move all parts of your body.....Internal work.....pretty cool.
BQ

[One student]

This is why people come back to and stay with SD amid all the criticism. For all the faults of the system and some of the practitioners, GMS has material that can't be found anywhere else. Sometimes I think that makes non-SD'ers jealous, thus some of (but not all of) the criticism.

Does anyone have a book, video, DVD, etc., of 10,000 Lotus Blooming, either from when he first mentioned it 20-30 years ago, or up to now? Or know of any?

[One student]

In 1978 i was in Nashville Tn. I was attacked at a theatre, by this guy at this time I was and had bneen taught that all MA was pressure points. Maybe just my teachers opinion. Anyway he attacked I was taught to hit certain points and I did it was Liver 13 and St 9 he went down and I ran off. It was over. the guy was big and strong. Luck maybe but I was taught the combo and I hit it, I was trained that way.
In MA one is taught to focus Chi or Ki in the area from the 1st 2 knuckles or what ever striking area of the body. It can be done if you take the time to do it. Here is a fun drill have someone blow bubbles alot of them and see how many you can burst with one finger or kick with the big toe in each time before they areall gone. A fun game but very functional. Also there are 720 points in the body not all are effective to hit. But that is alot KC

Watch carefully the new trailer for the new Sherlock Holmes movie with Robert Downey Jr. One scene he is instructing on a fighting technigue, showing and telling a three point combination behind left ear, right rib cage, front of throat. He's pressre point fighting. I'd like to see where that came from.

And in the bare-chested pit fight, he is clearly doing some kind of exotic martial arts, I think again TCMA in origin.

[sean_stonehart]

Watch carefully the new trailer for the new Sherlock Holmes movie with Robert Downey Jr. One scene he is instructing on a fighting technigue, showing and telling a three point combination behind left ear, right rib cage, front of throat. He's pressre point fighting. I'd like to see where that came from.

Not so much... he's just using tender/"vital" areas to strike that any Marquis de Queensbury boxer would strike for the era...



And in the bare-chested pit fight, he is clearly doing some kind of exotic martial arts, I think again TCMA in origin.

He's a Wing Chun practitioner.

[bodhi warrior]

This is why people come back to and stay with SD amid all the criticism. For all the faults of the system and some of the practitioners, GMS has material that can't be found anywhere else. Sometimes I think that makes non-SD'ers jealous, thus some of (but not all of) the criticism.

Does anyone have a book, video, DVD, etc., of 10,000 Lotus Blooming, either from when he first mentioned it 20-30 years ago, or up to now? Or know of any?

Well your right it does keep people coming back(and spending money). And this is why sin the does it. Keep 'em spending that dollar!
Why wait till your senior students are almost 70 years old before you teach them the good stuff. Now their too old to use it. Doesn't make sense.

[BoulderDawg]

I don't understand that at all.

I once asked how Masters David and Sharon learn new material since the GM lives in another state. Someone told me that for two weeks a year they have an intensive training session with him.

But can you really learn everything in two weeks? I was told they do 40-50 forms during those two weeks. At what point, even for elder masters does it start to become overload?

[One student]

Not so much... he's just using tender/"vital" areas to strike that any Marquis de Queensbury boxer would strike for the era...



He's a Wing Chun practitioner.

I got to take issue with that. I've seen that era boxing, that looks and sounds much different, at least to me. I'd like other opinions on that. And, Robert Downey Jr. may practice Wing Chun, but I think there is more to what is in that trailer than that. Does Wing Chun include leaping front kicks? I don't know, just thought it looked interesting.

[One student]

Well your right it does keep people coming back(and spending money). And this is why sin the does it. Keep 'em spending that dollar!
Why wait till your senior students are almost 70 years old before you teach them the good stuff. Now their too old to use it. Doesn't make sense.

I don't know you and I'm sure you are a knowledgeable person, but that sounds in fact like the jealousy I spoke of. Once again, find me any martial arts instructor who does it for a living, who doesn't want their students coming back, or doesn't charge money for new instruction. Or doesn't use new instruction to attract new students.

And if you have a lifetime of information, what do you expect the instructor to do, teach everything at once? Or the most advanced highest level material first? And the newest generation of students will also be taking the same material.

And by the way, I know for a fact, GMS teaches his material to many of the older students free of charge, and has been for 30+ years.

[bodhi warrior]

I don't know you and I'm sure you are a knowledgeable person, but that sounds in fact like the jealousy I spoke of. Once again, find me any martial arts instructor who does it for a living, who doesn't want their students coming back, or doesn't charge money for new instruction. Or doesn't use new instruction to attract new students.

And if you have a lifetime of information, what do you expect the instructor to do, teach everything at once? Or the most advanced highest level material first? And the newest generation of students will also be taking the same material.

And by the way, I know for a fact, GMS teaches his material to many of the older students free of charge, and has been for 30+ years.

I can see how it might come off as jealously. But for me it's disappointment.

[goju]

If you think those pop corn kicks of your clip is good , I give up. KC

um yeah they are they are fluid and they have power something the superfoot clips i posted lacked greatly:D

[sean_stonehart]

I got to take issue with that. I've seen that era boxing, that looks and sounds much different, at least to me. I'd like other opinions on that.

That's cool, but look into it. The stuff in that clip you're talking about is nothing special or secret.



And, Robert Downey Jr. may practice Wing Chun, but I think there is more to what is in that trailer than that. Does Wing Chun include leaping front kicks? I don't know, just thought it looked interesting.

Wing Chun not per se, but Hollywood movie fu does...

[AdrianK]

I got to take issue with that. I've seen that era boxing, that looks and sounds much different, at least to me. I'd like other opinions on that. And, Robert Downey Jr. may practice Wing Chun, but I think there is more to what is in that trailer than that. Does Wing Chun include leaping front kicks? I don't know, just thought it looked interesting.

Downey Jr is taught privately by Sifu Eric Oram, hes been training since at least 2003. I believe it was said Oram was on set for the fight scenes.

Anyways, quite a few things in that trailer are textbook Wing Chun.

And the leaping front kick, to say that isn't wing chun is to reduce WC down to techniques. Its principles. Does wing chun include a concept for the front thrust kick? Absolutely. You can add a step or a leap to this concept, thats just a variable.

[One student]

That's cool, but look into it. The stuff in that clip you're talking about is nothing special or secret.



Wing Chun not per se, but Hollywood movie fu does...

I don't know that I thought it was anything special or secret either, other than the implication that Sherlock Holmes, in that era, had studied kung fu, period, which I thought was an interesting concept to inject into the character. And i suspect in the movie, him beating up bigger stronger people using Asian martial arts will be presented as something special (in that time and place). That's just my prediction.

[One student]

Downey Jr is taught privately by Sifu Eric Oram, hes been training since at least 2003. I believe it was said Oram was on set for the fight scenes.

Anyways, quite a few things in that trailer are textbook Wing Chun.

And the leaping front kick, to say that isn't wing chun is to reduce WC down to techniques. Its principles. Does wing chun include a concept for the front thrust kick? Absolutely. You can add a step or a leap to this concept, thats just a variable.

Thank you for the input, I knew there was something being presented that was intentionally trying to portray some authenticity.

Although, having read all Sherlock Holmes books and stories, I would have cast him as one more likely to escape trouble with his wits than his fists (or feet), although being quite a capable pugilist nonetheless, no character is safe from re-making in Hollywood. I can hear the conversation between Downey and the director now:

"Hey, here's something to think about, how 'bout Holmes turns out to have studied Wing Chun among his other talents, add to the fight scenes. I can get my Sifu in as an advisor!"

Anyone remember Schwarzenneger's visit to Master Hiang's Drunken style classes in Lexington, back in the Conan era?

[OldandUsed]

Yeah, he was there as the presenter for the Mr/MsKentucky Bodybuiling Chapionships that GMS was sponsoring. Got to meet and speak with him down by the weight room with GMS. He was still pretty big at that time.

[youcandokungfu]

Hello everyone:
Anyone ever see a 4 arm or 7 arm wooden dummy..?
I know of the 3 arm Wing Chung wooden dummy...Its the same dummy but with 4 and 7 arms...Please let me know if anyone has ever seen that system...

I was taught for 30 years, with Sing Ming Li.
just now i come to realize he has taught me a style that no one has seen before..?

Move over Jackie Chan, and Jet Li, here comes the Ultimate fighter...

[kfman5F]

If any of you recall the old black and white Sherlock Holmes movies with Basil Rathbone, he had Chinese swords hanging on the walls of his office/apartment.

[kwaichang]

Cant believe you guys are talking about Movie MA like they are real. KC

[One student]

Cant believe you guys are talking about Movie MA like they are real. KC


No one said movie martial arts were real. Just said it was interesting when a movie, or for that matter any entertainment media, incorporates martial arts elements other than supernatural ninjas or flying kung fu masters. Like, Ian Fleming in 1959's "Godfinger" (the book, not the movie), with Oddjob demonstrating a flying side kick breaking a fireplace mantle, and Goldfinger describing the demo as "Karate," but compared it to judo "like a Spandau machine gun is to a catapault." Or again in 1964's "You Only Live Twice" (the book, not the movie), introducing James Bond to a school of ninjutsu. Maybe two of the first references in Western literature to what at the time were lesser known martial arts. Like the poster's reference to the kung fu swords in old Sherlock Holmes movies. Just interesting historical perspective, that's all.

And then we have Jackie Chan as Mr. Miyagi in "The Karate Kid" remake. A diferent discussion entirely.

[kwaichang]

JC as M Miyagi??? Hadnt heard that KC