Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[The Willow Sword]

Has it been established yet,after 12k + posts, that Shaolin-do is for real?:p

TWS:)



How ya doin KC?

[shen ku]

As real as anything...

and who said movie kung fu wasn't real???????

[kwaichang]

Lots of good wire work, Hey WS glad to see you are still around. KC

[Lucas]

JC as M Miyagi??? Hadnt heard that KC

its a remake-parallel.

its the kungfu kid. staring JC as the sifu.

cool china daily (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/metro/2009-09/16/content_8696702.htm) article with a neat pic of JC training smith

[One student]

its a remake-parallel.

its the kungfu kid. staring JC as the sifu.

cool china daily (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/metro/2009-09/16/content_8696702.htm) article with a neat pic of JC training smith

That's more like it!

[shadowlin]

zapatismo
kicker64
Just as a side note to the way things work. You'll rarely see anyone stay very long who gets very close in rank to Leonard. His ego is too big. If their ability is a threat, they'll be gone long before that. He controls Sin's rank advancements. The only reason Dave and Sharon and some of the other came as far as they did is because of the size of their schools. They essentially "bought" it. The threat of them pulling out of SDA outweighted Leonard's objections to their rank advancement. They are by no means "worthy" of 8th degrees in anyone's book.

I dont care to address Goju, because anyone who wastes their time attacking others' interests is too pathetic to banter with.

But I will make a reply to Kicker.

It is not true to say EML does not allow people to get close to him in rank. He does not allow too many people to get close to him personally, that is true. But the only thing holding back ranks is time and also dedication. People have jobs, his job is teaching. And what he defends is partially for his own career, but mostly for what he loves.

Of all the things to be said about EML whether you are with or without, against, for, or neutral with him and his lineage one thing is true: you will never find a more loyal dedicated man to the martial art. The man spends his days practicing things few people in the world care to because they require true dedication.
Now, is he nare impossible to deal with? Perhaps. I've heard one high ranking man say "EML defines loyalty differently." I'd have to agree that partially he defines it by obedience and partially by deference for his own teacher, whom he has complete and utter loyalty to - and for good reason. I believe he believes he'd have been dead by now if it weren't for GMSKT's teachings. That's also probably true if you know him and also his past ordeals and how meditation has saved him TWICE from certain death.

Let me say another thing about him. If anyone on here thinks they are a match for him, you are fooling yourself. The man is hard like iron, fast with a gun, strapped nearly 100% of the time and deadly accurate with many things... and most importantly he loves -no, he adores - the intensity of conflict and the challenge, and he is basically a man out of time. He is a reincarnation if ever I saw one of someone like Musashi. His ideals are more like to the Samurai than to Shaolin monks, I'd say, and if you understand where he comes from, then you'd know why. He's a true know it all, for sure, but for all that hubris he really can back his **** up, so be forewarned.


Now for all that, he's no "*****ly pear" all the time. But you must realize that he views his teacher, his art, and his country at large under threat from a growing decrease in traditional respect and courtesy, and basically morons at large. And this has made him less trusting I think (though he has become nicer with age and wisdom.) This makes him feel isolationist and all you people with your know-nothing judgementalism actually justify this behavior. [You think you're doing the world a service, you're really just dividing it up with your "I'm better than them" mentality.]


But any attempt to say he holds anyone back is pure BS. He gives out the information not only because he likes to share his love of the art with the few people who have enough love to share it (I mean he literally forcefeeds the info out because he feels he ought to), but really becuse he fears as many men of vast experience do: that they will have no one to succeed him.
In his case I fear he is nearly right. I don't know many people - just a few I won't name now - that are as loyal and dedicated to the art and to his teacher as he is.

For being so loving and reverent of GMSKT, you people may count him as the fool.
Well I count you as the fools because rather than fully assessing him and the art, and seeing the humanity in all of it, and seeing the beauty in such loyalty, you condemn him for it.

That is where you fail to cross the Razor's Edge. All men of greatness I've ever heard of had overbearing personalities and detractors. Even Lincoln or Roosevelt. MLK Jr. has people that call him a womanizer, and even old Mother Theresa has been attacked by small minded people.
But they were all human, as is EML, GMSKT, and David Soard for that matter.
I don't support what some people do but I find the qualities in them that I can learn from. And there is much to learn from David Soard, perhaps more in his downfall than anything. What I see in his story as I do in Tiger Woods or Mike Tyson is the ancient Yi Jing at play. While the false yang grew in glory, the false yin stripped the true (character, integrity) from below till nothing was left to hold it, and then Yang flipped to Yin and their empires fell. And it'd happen to any of you - especially you - because you don't know these ancient laws any better or you wouldn't spend your time like harpies tearing at immovable things from the shadows! You have no true yang as it is... you could never build a small kingdom yet enough have the learning experience those men have through their failures. They've lived in ways you never will, as you are too small to!

That doesn't mean D. Soard is done for, (nor Tiger Woods). But you people condemn Mr. Soard as though you've never made mistakes.
Just as you condemn EML or GMSKT for your perception of their shortcomings.
Well I hope the dust in their eyes looks good through the plank in yours.
After you've grown into positions of ANY remark whatsoever, I'd like to see if your skeletons turn out any brighter than anyone elses.

Now I've gone and nearly rambled, but my point stands.
As for GMSKT I've said enough on his behalf to satisfy my loyalty and feel I've not let a bunch of naysaying kungforum fighters get away without some licking themselves.

Is Shaolin-Do for real? Like someone said above as real as anything else. If you think your local American dojo is more real than any others, well ~_^
You want real do your own research and do your own thinking. Better start with the Analects since you're a lot of American babboons with no manners.

fyi to the guy asking about Mingione, I know him and he is only one of two masters I observed at the Liu Hsing seminar that had any real intuitive knowledge of the form and the pressure points. His accuracy was much better than others even right next to him. The other was of course EML. Also he is agile and very very friendly. But don't try to get close to him early, like everything in our system, there is a pecking order that is as natural as anything I see, and in fact serves a function. When you've done it for three years, then would be a good time to make yourself more acquainted. Get through 2nd year syndrome first, and open your eyes and heart.
And good luck.

[kwaichang]

Awesome statement I agree totally, KC

[goju]

why on earth did you put my name in a quote box with something i didnt say?LOL:D

[shen ku]

well said..

[solo1]

shadowlin? Wow. Very well said.

[One student]

its a remake-parallel.

its the kungfu kid. staring JC as the sifu.

cool china daily (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/metro/2009-09/16/content_8696702.htm) article with a neat pic of JC training smith

But, the trailers/previews still show the title as "The Karate Kid." And they give SD a hard time when they called it "Shaolin Karate." Even Jackie Chan is doing it now.

[One student]

Downey Jr is taught privately by Sifu Eric Oram, hes been training since at least 2003. I believe it was said Oram was on set for the fight scenes.

Anyways, quite a few things in that trailer are textbook Wing Chun.

And the leaping front kick, to say that isn't wing chun is to reduce WC down to techniques. Its principles. Does wing chun include a concept for the front thrust kick? Absolutely. You can add a step or a leap to this concept, thats just a variable.

Go see the movie. Its worth it, AND there is indeed kung fu, including one of the bad guy's henchman straight out of China. At least three separate fights featuring TCMA, IMO. And, it sure doesn't look like English boxing, considering at least one open hand "point" attack, and the fourth in the sequence from the preview (not shown in the preview) is the side of the kneecap.

[goju]

so doesnt look like your showing up on december either huuh kwai?

[shen ku]

so close to13000

[BM2]

Human ego can be a terrible thing, no doubt.

I can not add anything to this.

[BM2]

The large guy was a visiting Judo player, according to Earp. He was just there for a couple of months.

Have you ever considered that the gi story is bullsh1t? That maybe they trained CMA in Bandung the same way everyone else trains..in t-shirts and pants?


People with more invested in the style than you have privately told me they believe it is. Maybe. Maybe not.

But wouldn't it be cool if it is?

I think it is more time frame. I recall GMST talking about using their sash tied to their feet to do upside down situps.
Master Ie is never in a gi but I have seen Master Hiang in a gi in a painting with Master Ie . What time frame was the trouble in Indonesia? Late 50s and early 60s? I think that would be the time frame that they would have started using them. But just guessing.
Master Sin said that Master Ie was of slight built.
That one photo looks like Master Hiang.

[BM2]

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;968181]I dunno, this Tan Tui looks pretty good to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83nvRwq-4



Those cricular head blocks look like the way I learned them in 1981 from an instructor who learned from M. Hiang. Not the linear ones I learned later. At the time it was said that it was M. Hiang's version of it because of his bird background.

[Teufel Hunden]

Rest assured everyone, I didn't register here just for this. :D But, I do have some knowledge of the Soards and the recent "drama" for lack of a better term, and disagreed with a couple points in this otherwise excellent post.




That doesn't mean D. Soard is done for, (nor Tiger Woods). But you people condemn Mr. Soard as though you've never made mistakes.
Just as you condemn EML or GMSKT for your perception of their shortcomings.
Well I hope the dust in their eyes looks good through the plank in yours.
After you've grown into positions of ANY remark whatsoever, I'd like to see if your skeletons turn out any brighter than anyone elses.

The issue I take with this, is it's really easy to excuse someone, or to tell someone else they can't comment on anything because "everyone makes mistakes." Sure, we're all human, and sure, sometimes we all have those "oops" moments, and sometimes those moments cost us big in the long run. But sometimes it's bigger than a mistake. Sometimes it's not just, "oops... that's gonna cost me..." Sometimes it's a calculated conscious decision about which the decision maker should be beyond just knowing better (I won't comment about SKT or EML, just Soard specifically). Soard was in his position for a great many years. He had built his "empire," as you so put it, for a good portion of his life, and so being the kind of person who should be standing at the top should have come naturally to him right? It didn't. He had inappropriate sexual contact (I won't even get in to whether it was consentual or not, he claimed it was, both women claimed it wasn't, either way, it was completely inappropriate), with more than one woman. This is more than just a "mistake" on his part, because he's "human."

There comes a point in every man's "empire" in which he's no longer allowed to make these kinds of "mistakes" and just continue on as normal afterward. A good example of this is a US Marine who was under my charge. In 2006, I was a Platoon Sergeant, and we were preparing for a deployment to Iraq. Because part of our mission was to handle detainees (not prisoners, people arrested for any number of reasons, but for no longer than 14 days), we had several female Marines attached to our company in case we had female detainees come in. One of my Squad leaders (a Sergeant), developed a secret interest in one of the women Marines (a Private First Class), and eventually had sex with her one evening, in clear defiance of several standing orders from the Commanding Officer, and even a couple from myself.

The solution to this, is Non Judicial Punishment for all parties involved. The Platoon Commander and I sought to punish not only those involved, but parties that knew about it as well. In the end, the Commanding Officer went with our recommendations, and 4 people lost rank and pay over the ordeal. But, the Sgt who slept with the Private got it the worst. He had been selected for promotion to Staff Sergeant. This means he hadn't pinned on the rank yet, and was still a Sgt until a slot opened up for him (it could be months away). But, he had reached the maximum allowable service time for a Sgt, so he needed to get promoted or get out of the Marine Corps. Well, with him being busted down to Corporal, this meant he was no longer going to make SSgt in time, and thus, would be forced out of the Marines. It ruined his career, which, up to that point, was a good one.

A couple of my Marines approached me and (respectfully), asked why this one thing should ruin the Sgt's career. "He just made a mistake... he's been a great Sgt up to this point!" To which my reply was, "He was such a good Sgt, he should have known better than this." And I think that's something people tend to gloss over while excusing someone from criticism with the old, "Oh yeah like you people are so perfect! what kinds of skeletons are in your closet?!?!" routine. That Marine had served long enough to know what happens when you disobey numerous standing orders to have an illegal one night stand with a Marine in your same unit. On that same token, Soard had been a pillar of the SD community for how long? He had been a teacher for how long? He had been MARRIED for how long? After all that experience, after all those years of marriage, after having taught so many students, he decided it would be a good idea to have inappropriate contact with not one, but TWO female students (he only had to plead guilty to one count of harassment though). He even admitted he knew it was wrong. This isn't just "one of those things" that you can breeze over with "yeah, well, everyone makes mistakes... like everyone else is so perfect!"


And there is much to learn from David Soard, perhaps more in his downfall than anything.

I actually agree with this. The lesson here should be about the content of one's character, especially when said person is in a position of authority (in more than one way), and the serious consequences of the abuse of that position. But, thanks to people glossing over offenses like this, most lessons that could be learned from other people's mistakes like this are lost, because the offenders themselves suffer no consequences as a result.


You have no true yang as it is... you could never build a small kingdom yet enough have the learning experience those men have through their failures. They've lived in ways you never will, as you are too small to!

So other people are small compared to David Soard because they haven't reached what he has? I'd say David Soard is small compared to ME. Sure, i'm not one of a handful of names listed on a website as an 8th degree elder master, but I've never tried to **** two of my students either. I've never abused my position in a way he did. I've never cheated on my significant other the way he did. I've never banned students from my studio for questioning me after I've "made mistakes," like he did. People who follow good morals throughout their lives are the ones from which to take the lessons. THEY are the bigger people, not the people who once had "empires" and were too stupid keep it from crumbling.



Is Shaolin-Do for real? Like someone said above as real as anything else. If you think your local American dojo is more real than any others, well ~_^
You want real do your own research and do your own thinking.


Now this I agree with completely. :D

[BoulderDawg]

Hmmmmm........I find it interesting that somebody with 2 posts, who made an intro post that did not mention SD/CSC training, seems to express such a detailed opinion about the Soards and CSC months after all of this happened. Especially someone from Lafayette.

Truth is the storm is pretty much over. The out of town schools got what they wanted and the Soards continue to run their handful of schools. The losers here are the average students who just enjoyed going to the school and working out with their friends.

Why bring this up now? Granted the Soards do not run a good program anymore but there's not a lot anyone can do about it.

[Teufel Hunden]

Hmmmmm........I find it interesting that somebody with 2 posts, who made an intro post that did not mention SD/CSC training, seems to express such a detailed opinion about the Soards and CSC months after all of this happened. Especially someone from Lafayette.

I actually met the Soards several times through non-SD stuff. Of course being a Martial Artist myself, the conversations drift that way, and that's how I know about him. My post also contained no opinions about SD specifically, as beyond what I've read on this forum, I don't know much about the art (or CMA in general, for that matter... Google is how i found this place :D ), beyond the fact it's "controversial." I only replied to this thread because those particular arguments I quoted drive me nuts, and shouldn't be used to excuse someone of a crime. They were just being used to defend David Soard, so I commented on him specifically, and even gave other examples as to why I feel that way.


Truth is the storm is pretty much over. The out of town schools got what they wanted and the Soards continue to run their handful of schools. The losers here are the average students who just enjoyed going to the school and working out with their friends.

Why bring this up now?

Sure the storm is over, but does that mean I shouldn't add my own opinion in a thread that has over 12,000 already? This thread is a couple of years old now... so I'm not the only one who is "bringing things up."

[Facepalm]

:):):rolleyes::D
/thread

[goju]

hey facepalm!hows the training going?:D:)

[Facepalm]

hey facepalm!hows the training going?:D:)

Its going great actually. This trans place is awesome. Its a little expensive but they have top notch facilities, a full gym, and great people.

The people here are in such good shape their athleticism alone makes it great to spar against them.

The main class is more of a MA fitness class, but its some of the most intense workouts Ive had in my life. You do aton of calisthenics while working on your form and power with bag work and pad work using partners.

Then if you stick around and express interest they invite you into the fighters program. These classes are exactly what ive been looking for. You spar like the entire class, full contact, full pads. The last one I was at we started with some defensive drills, then went into 3 two minute rounds of 4 and 4, then 5 two minute rounds of free sparring, then 2 2 min rounds of attacking a sheild your partner held. Then onto pushups and situps, I thought I was gonna die afterwards.

You dont get to learn any of "teh deadly" Muay Thai untill you get a BB after about 4 yrs or so but if you want to learn and train to compete in ring sport Muay Thai I would recommend this place to anyone.

[BoulderDawg]

Seems like this SD thread has kinda died. Probably for the best.

I think the Soard thing has taken the wind out of a lot of sails. I think it's funny when you have people like this guy "Teufel" who signs up, claims he never trained with SD then proceeds to leave a 2-3 page post about the Soards and CDC then never makes another post.:D

[Teufel Hunden]

Seems like this SD thread has kinda died. Probably for the best.

I think the Soard thing has taken the wind out of a lot of sails. I think it's funny when you have people like this guy "Teufel" who signs up, claims he never trained with SD then proceeds to leave a 2-3 page post about the Soards and CDC then never makes another post.:D

Actually, if you had read the first response I gave you to this assumption of yours, you wouldn't have made this post.

Since you seem to have difficulty understanding a very simple concept, I'll repost it again, just for you.

I actually met the Soards several times through non-SD stuff. Of course being a Martial Artist myself, the conversations drift that way, and that's how I know about him. My post also contained no opinions about SD specifically, as beyond what I've read on this forum, I don't know much about the art (or CMA in general, for that matter... Google is how i found this place ), beyond the fact it's "controversial." I only replied to this thread because those particular arguments I quoted drive me nuts, and shouldn't be used to excuse someone of a crime. They were just being used to defend David Soard, so I commented on him specifically, and even gave other examples as to why I feel that way.

Is it that unrealistic to think I've met someone LOCAL before? I was born and raised in Lafayette, and have been a Martial Artist my entire life. This may shock you, but people sometimes know other people without having "trained" with them. I'm a contractor myself, but I know people outside of the contracting world, and have friends who don't even know how to swing a hammer. If someone who knows me said something about me would you say, "it's funny you'd have an opinion about him... you claim you're not a contractor.." NO, of course you wouldn't say that, because it's a stupid argument, and you KNOW it's stupid. Why is it so unbelievable to someone like you that I had met the Soards before, and haven't trained in SD? Your line of reasoning is severely lacking in the intelligence department.

Also, I'll point out AGAIN, that my point wasn't only about the Soards specifically. If you had read my posts instead of glossing over them, you'd see I took issue with the DEFENSE of the Soards, by calling other people small, and I even gave a good example as to why I felt that way. IN FACT, you'll notice that my "2-3 page post on the Soards and CSC" specifically had more to do with the way people SHOULD react to someone committing a crime, and NOTHING to do with CSC.

But I'll break it down for you since my first and second posts in here were obviously too much for you to comprehend.

I posted 975 words in that first post. 431 of them were AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE NOT ALLOWED TO "MAKE A MISTAKE" AND MY PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT WITH THAT EXAMPLE. So that means in my "2-3 page post about the Soards and CSC," almost 50% of the entire thing wasn't even about them.

Also, lets see how much I talked about CSC, or SD: NONE. So your post is as inaccurate as it is unintelligent.

And all my "knowledge" on David Soard can be found by spending 5 minutes in Google. You can see he's listed on SKT's website as an 8th degree master, you can see how long he's been teaching in Boulder, you can see EVERYTHING I POSTED. But for you tin foil hat folks, it's much easier to believe something else, because you'd much rather it be some other vast conspiracy or something.

As for "never making another post" just how many posts am I supposed to have here? Am I supposed to post ***** up the entire forum or what? As I stated in my very first post here, I'm not interested in CMA, my girlfriend is. I'm doing research for her, any question I might have about CMA in general has already been answered, and I can find those answers by using the search function, something Newbies like myself are encouraged to do. But I guess in your world, not being a post ***** annoying newb, and using the search function properly is a bad thing...

[taai gihk yahn]

Why is it so unbelievable to someone like you that I had met the Soards before, and haven't trained in SD?
because he is an idiot, and if you were a regular visitor here, you'd know that

[goju]

this thread cant be over man we have to do at least 1000 pages!:D

[taai gihk yahn]

this thread cant be over man we have to do at least 1000 pages!:D

Sin The is a pre-op tranny; discuss!

(that should be good for a few more...)

[goju]

lol
and whats the deal with the ****in karate uniforms!:D

also wheres kwai? he was supposed to come down to colorado and kick my ass last month he seems to have magically vanished from the board hmmmmmmm

[OldandUsed]

Ahhhhhhhhh, more drama! I cannot wait for the responses.

[Old Man]

.................................

[goju]

^ lol:d:d:d:d

[shen ku]

anyone have any insite... real that is ,, into the new form?

[Old Man]

..............................

[Old Noob]

Been a while. Hey JP, BQ, all! I haven't gotten on here much at all since I changed jobs but I had heard a bit about what happened out east with EM Soard. Still, training hard out east, most in my school had no idea of all the school upheavel. In any case, it's good to get caught up with the latest info. I hope you're all doing well.

A couple of pages back, folks were talking about the martial arts in the Holmes movie. Downey may be a WC guy but Holmes the character practised a martial art called Bartitsu, which was founded by a guy, Barton-Wright, who studied ju jitsu in Japan and combined it with stick fighting and other martial concepts from, wait for it, Indonesia, and with western boxing. He opened a martial arts institute in England, which ultimately failed. The institute and what went on there was very much a mixed martial arts culture. There's a guy, Tony Wolf, who's done quite a bit of historical research on Bartitsu. It's fascinating stuff.

In any case, I hope you're all well. SD pracitioners of any sub-lineage are pretty much welcome in our neighborhood so if you're ever in DC, drop a line.

[One student]

And, if any of you are interested, the TV show "Fight Quest" recently featured Pencak Silat, and filmed from GMS's hometown, Bandung. Interesting fighters and teachers.

[Eric Olson]

Haven't checked in on this thread in several years. Nice to see that it's still running. I might stop by in a few years for the reunion.

Oh yeah, and since I'm here, I guess I should give the obligatory shaolin-do sucks.

EO

[goju]

Haven't checked in on this thread in several years. Nice to see that it's still running. I might stop by in a few years for the reunion.

Oh yeah, and since I'm here, I guess I should give the obligatory shaolin-do sucks.

EO

wait this thread has been going for that many years:eek:

[Eric Olson]

wait this thread has been going for that many years:eek:

Since September 29th, 2004 to be exact....and has the question been answered? Is Shaolin-do "for real"?

EO

[Facepalm]

well,

I found it to be more real than some of the other places I went to afterwards. I demoed a couple karate places and a hapkido place, and the first techniques they showed me were laughable. While yes I would agree that there is alot of fluff being taught at the CSCs, but I found a good amount of it to be usefull. The sparring strategy and techniques taught there have really helped me spar these Muay Thai cats.

Id say its real enough...how bout that

[goju]

Since September 29th, 2004 to be exact.


good lord i had no idea:eek:

[Judge Pen]

good lord i had no idea:eek:

Why doesn't that surprise me? :D

[SnowDog]

well,

I found it to be more real than some of the other places I went to afterwards. I demoed a couple karate places and a hapkido place, and the first techniques they showed me were laughable. While yes I would agree that there is alot of fluff being taught at the CSCs, but I found a good amount of it to be usefull. The sparring strategy and techniques taught there have really helped me spar these Muay Thai cats.

Id say its real enough...how bout that

Facepalm - I would have to agree with you. IT"S REAL ENOUGH.

Is a real Martial Art - YES , is it real old school traditional kung fu - umm, NO - it's a hybrid. is that a bad thing, no it's not. Heck, of all the people I've crossed hands with the best by far was someone who was a Guru Muda in KunTao Silat and that's a hybrid system.

When I trained at the CSC back in the late 80s and 90s ('86-'94) It definately was better than some places and not as hard core as others, but I did pick up some good things which helped me with sparring in the future as well.

I can only speak for the CSC and not the rest of SD, but when I started it was a little school that trained hard, didin't have 10,000 forms, and did hard sparring (sure there still was fluff, what MA don't), but one of the reasons I left was that I was becoming dissapointed in how they seemed to be slowly watering down the teachings (Less conditioning, less drilling, softer sparing, and advancing people that just shouldn't advance). Then years later '99 I went back to take a few classes and it was a shock to see what it had become, definately on it's way to McDojohood.

To me CSC/ SD has a lot to offer if they would reflect back and stop trying to advance everyone under the sun, learn 50,000 forms , bring back good 'ol hard sparring and conditioning and slow down and work on fundementals. Oh, and I think they need to embrace the fact they are a hybrid and not the "real" Shaolin that was lost to time, there are many hybrids that are respected - because they train and fight hard.

If they are listening at CSC/ SD.......Be Honest, Train hard, and work on the fundementals, and maybe you can get some of your respect back.

[bodhi warrior]

Facepalm - I would have to agree with you. IT"S REAL ENOUGH.

Is a real Martial Art - YES , is it real old school traditional kung fu - umm, NO - it's a hybrid. is that a bad thing, no it's not. Heck, of all the people I've crossed hands with the best by far was someone who was a Guru Muda in KunTao Silat and that's a hybrid system.

When I trained at the CSC back in the late 80s and 90s ('86-'94) It definately was better than some places and not as hard core as others, but I did pick up some good things which helped me with sparring in the future as well.

I can only speak for the CSC and not the rest of SD, but when I started it was a little school that trained hard, didin't have 10,000 forms, and did hard sparring (sure there still was fluff, what MA don't), but one of the reasons I left was that I was becoming dissapointed in how they seemed to be slowly watering down the teachings (Less conditioning, less drilling, softer sparing, and advancing people that just shouldn't advance). Then years later '99 I went back to take a few classes and it was a shock to see what it had become, definately on it's way to McDojohood.

To me CSC/ SD has a lot to offer if they would reflect back and stop trying to advance everyone under the sun, learn 50,000 forms , bring back good 'ol hard sparring and conditioning and slow down and work on fundementals. Oh, and I think they need to embrace the fact they are a hybrid and not the "real" Shaolin that was lost to time, there are many hybrids that are respected - because they train and fight hard.

If they are listening at CSC/ SD.......Be Honest, Train hard, and work on the fundementals, and maybe you can get some of your respect back.

I would agree with just about all of this. The two main reasons for SD becoming the watered down version of what it was 1) putting learning forms over sparring and conditioning. I know when Master Leonard got his 4th black he didn't know but maybe half of what is required now! And he could fight! Most of what is being presented now in seminars was not learned by GM sin when he was training in my opinion. 2) people getting promoted to master that have no business being called masters. This all comes down to money. And its making a mockery of what was a very respectable fighting art.
As far as being a hybrid art...maybe, I'm still not sure. I still like calling it old kung fu. I've seen videos of students of GM sin's conterparts in indonesia and can say that much of our early material is legit as far as what was taught in indonesia. I even seen them perform our brown belt broadsword form, very cool. For SD to stay alive they're going to have to get control of who they promote and focus on what forms they have instead of learning the next top secret form that will change everything! People come on! If it was that good then why wait 40 years to teach it? Also sparring and conditioning. Without a good amount of each forms won't mean anything!

[One student]

I would agree with just about all of this. The two main reasons for SD becoming the watered down version of what it was 1) putting learning forms over sparring and conditioning. I know when Master Leonard got his 4th black he didn't know but maybe half of what is required now! And he could fight! Most of what is being presented now in seminars was not learned by GM sin when he was training in my opinion. 2) people getting promoted to master that have no business being called masters. This all comes down to money. And its making a mockery of what was a very respectable fighting art.
As far as being a hybrid art...maybe, I'm still not sure. I still like calling it old kung fu. I've seen videos of students of GM sin's conterparts in indonesia and can say that much of our early material is legit as far as what was taught in indonesia. I even seen them perform our brown belt broadsword form, very cool. For SD to stay alive they're going to have to get control of who they promote and focus on what forms they have instead of learning the next top secret form that will change everything! People come on! If it was that good then why wait 40 years to teach it? Also sparring and conditioning. Without a good amount of each forms won't mean anything!

Bodhi Warrior:

You know, you could make good money showing those videos to those (us) who would love to see them but have not. Or if you're not into that, you could make some good Karma. Or get brownie points. Or just make some poor lowly deprived interested persons very happy. I thought it was interesting when the TV show "Fight Quest" filmed a show on Penjat Silat, in Bandung (GMS's home town). Seeing the films you're talking about would be even better.

[themeecer]

showing those videos to those (us) who would love to see them but have not. Or if you're not into that, you could make some good Karma. Or get brownie points. Or just make some poor lowly deprived interested persons very happy.

I agree. You guys run in some circles that no matter how many years I train I am never privy to. I have no idea where you all come up with these cool tidbits we have been missing out on.

[bodhi warrior]

BW
Do U reconize this picture
OTD

Yes. They had some unique uniforms as well.

[Baqualin]

BW
Do U reconize this picture
OTD

Quit teasing them OTD :):):):):):)
BQ

[Old Man]

...........................

[bodhi warrior]

Bodhi Warrior:

You know, you could make good money showing those videos to those (us) who would love to see them but have not. Or if you're not into that, you could make some good Karma. Or get brownie points. Or just make some poor lowly deprived interested persons very happy. I thought it was interesting when the TV show "Fight Quest" filmed a show on Penjat Silat, in Bandung (GMS's home town). Seeing the films you're talking about would be even better.

The videos were giving to me by someone I have the utmost respect and admiration. As well as some very interesting insights into the way things used to be. Out of respect for him I cannot post the videos.

[themeecer]

BW
Do U reconize this picture
OTD

That looks like it is from Se Meng Pa Fang Tao

[bodhi warrior]

BW
Reconize this Picture?
1. 13th White Crane
2. Northern Ground Dragon
or
3. New Golden Mountain Tiger
OTD

I don't know any of those forms, so no I don't know the answer. I would like to know the names of the other forms presented in Indonesia.

[kuni]

I hope so. Je Shiao Fu, according to Master Sin's DVD, is the originator of alot of the lower belt material.

hi je shio fu is avery famous shantung kung fu teacher, tuanta is part of his teaching methode is this system related too tang lang and which tang lang system, qixing ?
regards,

[Old Man]

.......................................

[kuni]

je shio fu learn the tuanta from a different master than his northern tanglang grandmaster not part of his original northrtn tangang set. learned later after he was graduated.

how many teacher does ji xiofu has?. what kind of tang lang system does jie xio fu learn? is wang so sin his tang lang teacher?

regards, and thanks for your information old man

[Old Man]

............................................

[kuni]

since everybody tease everybody with their knowledge on this bored and nobody want to give up what they know they know in public to nobody else I'll be in that game too. If you want to know more about GM Ji send me a private message with your email address. I will tell you about GM Ji's teachers, where he studied, what he did, who he taught, etc. Maybe.

thank alot old man i have already sent a pm to you looking forward to hearing from you

[One student]

BW
Do U reconize this picture
OTD

Will you tell us about when, where, what context those photos were taken? And share the rest.

[One student]

Date July 1 1992
PLace Bandung, Indonesia
Grand Hotel Preanger main banquet hall honoring Grandmaster Sin by some of his old colleagues students in particular Tjie Tiong and the White lotus society (I believe) At the time Tjie Tong was well into his 80's after the banquet he did 'push hands' with any one who wanted to cross hands. He was very strong and fast. There were many forms shown by both the visiting Americans and the local Bandung group. Some were in plain sams others looked like club uniforms all including the ladies were very colorful. Empty hand and weapon forms were shown along with a couple of two man weapon sets, A little bit of sparring as well . After the dinner a few late comers showed some more forms. It was quite informative. A lot of the forms shown were in the upper black belt level. All of which I believe have been taught out in the original home school, but I am not sure. Those that were readily recognizable to me in 1992 were the 3rd Brown Belt Broad sword, Tai chi Fan, sword, 24,64, and Buddha fist. Others became clearer as they were taught out 13/14 White crane, New Golden mountain tiger, Ground dragon.
I think these films/videos are treasures and for as much as those who could/would/should see them and enjoy them there are as many "foo/keyboard' naysayer and @$$ Wholes that
I have had to listen to for over 40+ years of whining and complains (and they should have been practicing their own style to better them selves) that I keep these to myself and enjoy. Because other opinions, besides GMS and my master, do not matter ‘Nuf said!!!!
OTD

Cannot disagree with your assessment of who should be privy to such treasures, particularly those who would appreciate them, rather than criticize or rationalize. Alhough there are others in the system who would still like to. I sent you a PM on another (?) topic.

[Facepalm]

Nice...

Im so happy this thread has started up again

[kuni]

old man i think you should clear up your pm

[brucereiter]

Date July 1 1992
PLace Bandung, Indonesia
Grand Hotel Preanger main banquet hall honoring Grandmaster Sin by some of his old colleagues students in particular Tjie Tiong and the White lotus society (I believe) At the time Tjie Tong was well into his 80's after the banquet he did 'push hands' with any one who wanted to cross hands. He was very strong and fast. There were many forms shown by both the visiting Americans and the local Bandung group. Some were in plain sams others looked like club uniforms all including the ladies were very colorful. Empty hand and weapon forms were shown along with a couple of two man weapon sets, A little bit of sparring as well . After the dinner a few late comers showed some more forms. It was quite informative. A lot of the forms shown were in the upper black belt level. All of which I believe have been taught out in the original home school, but I am not sure. Those that were readily recognizable to me in 1992 were the 3rd Brown Belt Broad sword, Tai chi Fan, sword, 24,64, and Buddha fist. Others became clearer as they were taught out 13/14 White crane, New Golden mountain tiger, Ground dragon.
I think these films/videos are treasures and for as much as those who could/would/should see them and enjoy them there are as many "foo/keyboard' naysayer and @$$ Wholes that
I have had to listen to for over 40+ years of whining and complains (and they should have been practicing their own style to better them selves) that I keep these to myself and enjoy. Because other opinions, besides GMS and my master, do not matter ‘Nuf said!!!!
OTD

here are some pictures some may enjoy.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo001.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo001.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/MasterIeshouse001.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/MasterIeshouse001.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo-Ticket001.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo-Ticket001.jpg

[kuni]

hi bruce,
thanks for your information is the old guy in the second foto's Jie tiong?

regards,

[brucereiter]

Kuni & Bruce
I believe the older gentleman in the picturt to be GGMIe adoptive son.
The atached picture is Tjie Tiong in the Multi-colores jacket seated on the end.
He was the one that was hosting the get together.

Bruce nice to have you back in the states, did you miss the cold and snow?

OTD

i was trying to place who he was ... thanks.

i am in milan italy today and fly to athens greece in the am ... another few days and i will be back in the good ole usa...

[Northwind]

Thanks for the warning ;)

[Old Man]

Kuni & Bruce
I believe the older gentleman in the picturt to be GGMIe adoptive son.
The atached picture is Tjie Tiong in the Multi-colores jacket seated on the end.
He was the one that was hosting the get together.

Bruce nice to have you back in the states, did you miss the cold and snow?

OTD


who is the nam eof the adoptive son of ie? do you no? :)

[shen ku]

the flowers have bloomed ,,, fun little form

[Shaolin Wookie]

Date July 1 1992
PLace Bandung, Indonesia
Grand Hotel Preanger main banquet hall honoring Grandmaster Sin by some of his old colleagues students in particular Tjie Tiong and the White lotus society (I believe) At the time Tjie Tong was well into his 80's after the banquet he did 'push hands' with any one who wanted to cross hands. He was very strong and fast. There were many forms shown by both the visiting Americans and the local Bandung group. Some were in plain sams others looked like club uniforms all including the ladies were very colorful. Empty hand and weapon forms were shown along with a couple of two man weapon sets, A little bit of sparring as well . After the dinner a few late comers showed some more forms. It was quite informative. A lot of the forms shown were in the upper black belt level. All of which I believe have been taught out in the original home school, but I am not sure. Those that were readily recognizable to me in 1992 were the 3rd Brown Belt Broad sword, Tai chi Fan, sword, 24,64, and Buddha fist. Others became clearer as they were taught out 13/14 White crane, New Golden mountain tiger, Ground dragon.
I think these films/videos are treasures and for as much as those who could/would/should see them and enjoy them there are as many "foo/keyboard' naysayer and @$$ Wholes that
I have had to listen to for over 40+ years of whining and complains (and they should have been practicing their own style to better them selves) that I keep these to myself and enjoy. Because other opinions, besides GMS and my master, do not matter ‘Nuf said!!!!
OTD


If you had to compare the Indonesian school with its American offshoot, how would you define the main differences? ST/SD has a different curriculum setup, so of course the emphasis develops differently in conjunction with that and the student's interest, so I'm not saying one thing's better than another.

Just curious.

[bodhi warrior]

the flowers have bloomed ,,, fun little form

So what did this form teach you that the others did not?

[shen ku]

that GM SIN can move his muscles like a freak.......... i guess you would have just had to seen it... oh and that i am much fatter then most in the system.. haha..

[KungFuGenius]

Not sure if this is the best place for this, but I was googling my username (I was bored :rolleyes:) for fun and came across this forum. I too am an SD practitioner and I am glad to see a fairly serious discussion of the system here. I hope to learn and discuss some cool stuff with you guys! :)


So what did this form teach you that the others did not?
I was at the seminar, and the bulk of what was different wasn't so much in the form, but the training. The training of individual muscles leads to more nerve activity, resulting in a more active brain.

There's an excellent book out there called The Brain That Changes Itself, by Norman Doidge. It deals with neuroplasticty, meaning that the brain can adapt and change given the right nerve stimulus. Given that that's basically what 10,000 Lotus is about, it's a great read for someone who has learned it.

[bodhi warrior]

Not sure if this is the best place for this, but I was googling my username (I was bored :rolleyes:) for fun and came across this forum. I too am an SD practitioner and I am glad to see a fairly serious discussion of the system here. I hope to learn and discuss some cool stuff with you guys! :)


I was at the seminar, and the bulk of what was different wasn't so much in the form, but the training. The training of individual muscles leads to more nerve activity, resulting in a more active brain.

There's an excellent book out there called The Brain That Changes Itself, by Norman Doidge. It deals with neuroplasticty, meaning that the brain can adapt and change given the right nerve stimulus. Given that that's basically what 10,000 Lotus is about, it's a great read for someone who has learned it.
I'll check the book out. I love to read. So would you consider taichi the opposite in terms of goals?

[KungFuGenius]

I'll check the book out. I love to read. So would you consider taichi the opposite in terms of goals?
I wouldn't say opposite. I would consider them different facets on the same jewel. Or different paths up the same mountain. You know what I mean :P Like Xingyi and Taichi, sure they look different, but when you break them down the principles are the same, but the methods are a little different.

[shen ku]

thats an interesting pic. another one that you will not say where it came from??

[sean_stonehart]

Any one have any thoughts on this ??

Old guy with a sai...

[kuni]

Any one have any thoughts on this ??

the foto that you mention is Lie Tjin Yan tao kun master

[bodhi warrior]

Thanks Kuni I was not sure . I thought it might be either Lie Tjin Yan or
Tjip Pho Liang Kie . Picture Circa Summer 1966 taken by W A Fuller

So what's the history on this guy?

[kuni]

Each was the leader of their own style of silat that was influenced by
traditional Chinese Martial Arts:
Both were traditionalists in training. Hard fast unrelenting workouts.
No mats, floors soft rugs....beaches, river areas, mountains ,stream beds
just where ever you were you worked out.
Both were great fighters in their own.
Both were versed in many Chinese & Indonesian weapons
So I have been told

OTD
is look like that you do alot of research indonesian chinese martial arts?
can you tell me more about tjip pho liang kie story?

[yeti]

Old guy with a sai...

Dude I thought it was a pic of you????

[sean_stonehart]

Dude I thought it was a pic of you????

Nah I left my glasses at home...

[Shaolin Wookie]

Anyone ever read the really old SD book "Shaolin Karate" by the The' bros (spiral binding)?

Well, it's pretty shabby. The authors tell most of the same old stories, and even less convincingly if you can believe it, but GM Sin notes in the book that GGM Ie became an opium addict after crossing over to Indonesia. GGM Ie's old Kung Fu bros. who came over with him in exile to Indonesia, or a little afterwards, helped to "rehab" GGM Ie by building a kung fu school and encouraging him to teach.

Now, I'm not going to throw my fistful of stones at this glass house, mostly because SD's windows are already broken, but it does sound at least interesting and is perhaps the one "human" (as opposed to "superhuman") story that SD has told in its sixty years in America.

If I was banking on truth, this would be the one true-sounding story. Ironically, that book is the only place SD has bothered to put the story in print. I've never heard of it elsewhere.

Of course, the book also mentions GGGM Su Kong, and says GGM Ie was using opium to deal with the psychological harrows of killing the Reds that burned down Fukien. I don't know if I buy that explanation, but the opium bit is interesting.

Makes you think: a fantastic Shaolin Wookie kind of story might be a concoction of a recovering opium addict, or perhaps a story used to cover up what might be seen as a weakness in one of the MA patriarchs of Bandung's Central Plains Wushu. I'm no expert on Chinese tradition and culture, so I don't know how families would deal with an issue like opium addiction (using "cover-up" stories or whatnot), but opium was a huge problem at that time throughout China, esp. southern China, even though it had been pretty much "outlawed" by many public leaders in the previous century. I've been studying the Opium Wars lately as a historical hobby, so I find this little factoid interesting.

It's a shame, though, that this story disappeared, if it is in fact a true story and not just another instance of SD's ****amamy balderdash. Just think: A recovering opium-addict, a lifelong Chinese martial artist looking for assylum from Communist oppression in China, using kung fu as a barrier from self-destruction and (by and large) the most widespread drug problem of his age (thanks in large part to British trafficking)--that's a rather inspiring story.

It might, ironically, have been the only one worth telling, if you get my drift.

[Shaolin Wookie]

BTW, I'll cite a section of it if you want the story. Don't buy the book, unless you want to color all the little cartoon pictures. You've heard the rest of its (non) sense before.

[Judge Pen]

Well, whenever we learn a move in a form that is near impossible to do correctly we call it a pipe move because Master Ie must have been smoking opium when he taught that move.

[shen ku]

good one JD.. GM SIN has told that story many times that i have heard, in seminars and such.. and i don't train under him directly very often so i would think most have heard it if they have been around any time at all

[Baqualin]

Well, whenever we learn a move in a form that is near impossible to do correctly we call it a pipe move because Master Ie must have been smoking opium when he taught that move.

HEY JP....how's the wife & kids!!!!!
BQ

[Judge Pen]

HEY JP....how's the wife & kids!!!!!
BQ

Hey BQ. Wife and kids are good. We are expecting our 2nd in August. Right now I'm in the process of buying a new home and we are scheduled to close on it at the end of this month so things are busy! How have things been with you?

[Baqualin]

Hey BQ. Wife and kids are good. We are expecting our 2nd in August. Right now I'm in the process of buying a new home and we are scheduled to close on it at the end of this month so things are busy! How have things been with you?

Things are going pretty well now! Had a rough 2009 due to the economy....made a major career change and have pulled out of it now....not one to sit around and wait for the handouts....got to help pay for those who do. HAHA!!
BQ

[Old Man]

Thanks Kuni I was not sure . I thought it might be either Lie Tjin Yan or
Tjip Pho Liang Kie . Picture Circa Summer 1966 taken by W A Fuller

yes lie thin yan. this is the teaching at the school of lie thin yan

Level 1 (similar to basis school/training/education)

Sam Koan = Onderdeel (sub part) 1 to 12

Deel (drill) 1 to 12 contains the system of single (one attack/defend)

Deel Knife, breathing exercises and inner strength exercise and meditating/philosophy

The basic (walking, stance (kuda-kuda), position, hitting, blocking, kicking, moving etc.)



Level 2 (similar to high school/training/education)

Liu Koan = Onderdeel (sub part) 13 to 24

Deel (drill) 13 to 24 contains the system of double (two attack/defend)

Weapons (Pole/stick solo and together) and little bit of sparring



Level 3 (similar to university school/training/education)

Kiu Koan = Onderdeel (sub part) 25 to 36

Deel (drill) 25 to 36 contains the system of triple (three attack/defend)

Weapons (broad/moon sword solo, double sword solo, spear solo, sai’s (tjabang) solo, sword to pole fight, Pole to Sai fight, Pole to Pole fight, Sword to spear fight, spear to Pole fight Pouw (real close combat)



Deel = also named as drill/pasangan/part/twe-ta (two person fighting set)

Onderdeel = sub part (two person executing/performing set of the basics with sticking hands), the student learns how to block/strike kick/sweep etc. from a firm stance and walk.

Pouw = Pouw = 108 elimination techniques, each deel contains minimal 3 variations of elimination techniques, so 3 x 36 = 108. But in principle there are more.



Dao Quan is the same as Tao Kun, Dao means Tao and Quan is Kun the only difference is in what language it is spoken, mandarin or kantonese. For example in the Hokkian dialect they use the name Kuntao or Taokun but in other provinces they use the name Dao Quan.



The tai chi is in this system named thay kek en is from the system Li-wang. Hsing I is in hokkian language Heng ie koan en is also Xing Yi Quan. Taokun is part from Lay kee Koan and Lay kee Koan is the branch from Heng Ie Koan and under Heng Ie are a lot of different styles.



Lie Tjhing Yan brought Taokun to Surabaya Indonesia because he had to run from Makassar because he had killed a kungfu master from I believe Singapore in a fight/contest with one blow. So he teached privately Mr. Liem Khe Ien and other people from Surabaya and so Taokun was born in Surabaya.

[kuni]

lay ke kun= nei cha cuan

[tattooedmonk]

whats this all about??


Anyone have any info on the Golden Tiger form being taught in Phoenix???

[sideslider]

[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;1006077]whats this all about??



EDIT: Found some info... I know sorry.

[One student]

So, did you find out anything other than what was on the Phoenix CSC website?

[Judge Pen]

OTD wasn't Buddha fist also one of those forms? I thought there were a few others that were shared by the Bangdung students.

[One student]

There is no mystery.
This is one of the forms shown to the visiting
Shaolin-Do group in Bandung 1992 by Tjie Tiong's
students. The other one was the 14th White crane.
They, the Bandung students were kind enough to
allow both to be filmed and every so often one and
maybe both are taught out.
OTD

The "mystery" (maybe a poor choice of word in raising/answering a question) was that: 1) material was being taught at a school under GMS; 2) that was not, from appearances, ever on any SD or SDA curriculum, material, or seminar announcement (that at least two people knew of or remembered or could find); and 3) was not being taught by GMS. The mention of it on Phoenix's CSC website said nothing about where it came from or how. Maybe that's more of a mystery to some than it is for others. Therefore, questions from persons who don't know the origin of everything taught everywhere. That's all. Thank you for your response which was helpful explaining about the origins of Golden Tiger. Now, when will someone teach it somewhere other than Phoenix?

[shen ku]

anyone going to the seminar in lexington saturday?

[Iron_Lung]

So, that PM didnt go so well ... got cut off. I still have the whole text of my inquiry but your PM's were full. If you are interested please let me know as I can send it another way/day. Thank you.

[Judge Pen]

So, that PM didnt go so well ... got cut off. I still have the whole text of my inquiry but your PM's were full. If you are interested please let me know as I can send it another way/day. Thank you.

PM with my e-mail is sent.

[shen ku]

master leonards sword seminar was fun

[Mas Judt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6GJHOagIyY

FWIW - I know this is beginners performing.

But is this the golden tiger set you were referring to?

[arinathos.valin]

In response to Bodhi Warrior and KungFu Genius a couple of posts back, I'm posting a blurb I wrote for a friend's message board. It elaborates a bit on what was said about tai chi and hsing-I being two sides of the same coin. Take what I have to say with a grain of salt...


We like to put things in a box as human beings. We like to categorize and to analyze things. It's human nature to break complex things down into simpler ways of understanding. So it is with our understanding of violence and self defense. All martial arts systems are a way of categorizing how to respond to a hostile action by another person.

People have found different ways of dealing with violence, and thus, different ways of training others to do the same. A martial arts "style" is simply that...one person's way of teaching another how to respond to the threat of force. Different styles of martial arts have very different characteristics that are often a reflection of the strengths and weaknesses of the style's founder Wing chun, for example, looks very different from Okinawan Shotokan, which looks different than Chen taiji. Even martial arts that share similar principles such as taiji, xingyi, and bagua can look very different from one another.

However, our tendency to put things in an artificial box can lead us into a subtle trap. When we put a label on something, it can limit the way we think about it.

We can see this at work in a simple example. Karate has a rising forearm movement known as "Jodan Uke", traditionally translated as "upper/high block". Thousands of students have been taught this application and think of it as a blocking maneuver. However, the proper translation of uke should be "to receive, or counter". If one doesn't think of the movement as a block, it opens up more applications, including a forearm smash to the chin or neck, that is far more efficient in ending a fight than a simple block. Likewise, when one names "gedan uke" a "low block", students will concentrate on the downward force of a "block", and not see the groin hammerfist, or that the move right before the downward action can be an elbow or neck break under the right circumstances.

The mere act of naming or defining something locks the application in place in one's mind, and can close off other possibilities of applications.

I find the potential of a similar subtle trap with the teaching of the internal arts. Taiji, xingyi, and bagua have often been taught together in Kung Fu schools because they have been viewed as complementary to one another. The striking power of xingyi can be combined with the evasive footwork of bagua and the relaxed grounding and yielding of taiji.

The problem i find is that training specific movement patterns with the label of a particular style can limit our horizons if we are not careful.
If one separates out the styles and steps like bagua, strikes like Xingyi, and yields like taiji, it creates an artificial distinction in the mind of the practitioner that these are completely different arts. If one looks closely, however, they all rely on common principles...full body power from the ground up, transmitted in a relaxed fashion through the skeletal structure, supported by balance and sensitivity to read incoming force. They also have in common spiralling energy and peng. Despite their external differences they are merely different manifestations of the same underlying principles.

Labeling a way of moving as taiji, xingyi, or bagua may require us to make a mental shift to change into a different way of movement because they are often taught separately as different martial arts. However, in a real situation, the goal should not be to move against the opponent in a "taiji way" or a "xingyi way." The goal should be internalized subconscious movement to remove the threat based on the situation at hand...not conformity to a style. In a true self defense situation, we will not have time to remember specific moves, or particular "fight by numbers" technique. We just need to move.

When working with a partner on the contact flow exercise (similar to free form push hands with the ability to move your feet/root), we will often stop to analyze how one of us managed to penetrate the other person's defenses and strike, so that both of us improves. I've often found it is difficult to reconstruct a move I've just done that was so effective. My body responds to the incoming force, and the result is instinctual, subconscious, and automatic. On further analysis, my response may have resembled something from a taiji form, or bagua, or xingyi... but my mind isn't trying to consciously do "parting wild horses mane", or "hide flower under leaves". The response is what it is, based on what my body felt and how it moved in response to that movement.

In the end, human movement is just human movement. The boxes that we make of individual styles are a good starting point to learn body mechanics and general principles. Ultimately, though, the goal is to combine those principles into a synthesis within the practitioner, so that when a threat comes, movement just happens. The practitioner in essence, creates his own "internal style" based on how his own body moves according to the underlying principles.

Real violence can't be put into a rigidly defined box. Fighting is not like a paint-by-numbers project, nor can it be choreographed. We must make sure that the semi-artificial boxes of "style" doesn't hamper our ability to respond effectively in a real situation.

[shen ku]

I can answer that ,,, that is not the golden tiger that was being talked about ... that is a brown belt form... and not done at its best by any means????

[Mas Judt]

I wasn't concerned about the quality of the performance...

Is there footage of this Golden Tiger set available anywhere?

[Judge Pen]

I wasn't concerned about the quality of the performance...

Is there footage of this Golden Tiger set available anywhere?

I think I have an example in a format I can e-mail. PM me your e-mail Mas and I'll see if I can locate it.

[Mas Judt]

Don't forget to send it to Nigerian scammers...

[Judge Pen]

Don't forget to send it to Nigerian scammers...

Nah, just you. But the e-mail I had for you no longer works. send me your new one and I'll send you a clip of the form they are talking about.

It's been around Tennessee and Kentucky for a while, but I guess its new to the old CSC schools that are now under Elder Master Mullins.

[Mas Judt]

check your pm's.

[Judge Pen]

check your pm's.

Didn't get it. try again or if you still have my e-mail send me a new message with your new e-mail.

[tattooedmonk]

Actually its in Newport Beach/ Orange County:eek::D

[shen ku]

man its like a ghost town in here

[taai gihk yahn]

man its like a ghost town in here

ok then - Sin The: pre- or post-op tranny? discuss (should be good for another couple of pages on the "March to 1000"...)

[bodhi warrior]

How many kids does sin the have? I know he has a daughter, curious if he has a son? What are they doing with his art?

[shen ku]

2 sons.. one of them i know was i belive a 3rd black and the other i have no idea.. but i think they are chasing there own dreams....

[Iron_Lung]

Hi all …

I started my search for a proper martial arts school several months ago as a novice, knowing next to nothing about the difference in disciplines of martial arts, let alone styles. One of the first and at the time most intriguing possibilities for me was with a CSC school (now renamed) in my area. In my research of this school and the SD system as a whole, I found this thread. I ended up actually reading the whole thing as I thought it sort of a real conversation between the practitioners of the style and its critics. This thread was a research tool for me to glean information on SD. While not all of the discussion proved useful, I did find most of it helpful overall, especially some of the revelations in the later portion of the debate. I ended up finding out some troublesome information that I was thankful to discover BEFORE I had made a decision. What was once a possible choice became something I am very glad I took the time to cross off my list (this is not to slight anyone who practiced, practices or finds personal value through this system of MA – it just isn’t for me). Basically I just wanted to thank everyone that has taken part in all parts of the dialogue, even the trolls. With the information I got through the thread my options became clearer, I learned a few things and I was able to make a decision that is right for me. So thank you and a special thanks to Judge Pen. Peace.

[Lucas]

first, contact guiness for a world record for reading this beast...;) :p

second, good luck in your journey.

:D

[Iron_Lung]

first, contact guiness for a world record for reading this beast...;) :p

second, good luck in your journey.

:D

Thank you. :)

[KungFuGenius]

Here's the best idea of the way they should be performed I've read about "short form theory", it was put together by one of the TN students (as far as I know not a master) back when everyone was allowed on the Mullins forum. By the way, that one time shining example of free exchange of information is (I believe) ANOTHER casualty of petty politics.

Written by KungFuGenius on the Mullins forum:
Here's a little short form theory I've thought up, don't know how right it is, but hey, why not get some feedback/discussion from my fellow SD people. Anyways, here it is.

Short Form Overview
Short form is the foundation of future material taught to the student. It teaches footwork, punching, grabbing, breaking, sweeping, and kicking. It also promotes strength and flexibility throughout the body. Each block is a strike, and each strike is a block. Short form also teaches the use of the entire body as a single weapon. Hip and shoulder movement is very important, as they are the roots of the power in the arms and legs.

Attacking Power of Short Form
In Short Form, your punch should start in mid-step and extend completely when the step lands. Before the attack is done, the hips should rotate with the fist, therefore extending the reach and power of the punch. When you step forward with the right foot, the left pushes the body forward, use this momentum to throw the arm and increase your striking power. The harder the back leg pushes the stronger the attack.
When the hips and shoulders rotate with the punch, the body turns sideways and extends the arm further, which increases range and power. When the momentum of the back legs push and the twisting of the hips and shoulders is combined, a lot of power can be produced. It doesn’t matter what the movement is: punching, thrusting, smashing, blocking (in front, above, or to the side), this method stays the same.
Kicking in Short Form is quick but strong. Pressing the hip out with the kick just before the moment of impact will ensure that you kick through your opponent, considering you’ve judged the distance accurately (neither too close or too far). Kicking can mess up the hip movement for the next attack. If you kick with the right foot, the right hip has shifted forward. Since most short forms end with a kick, and the kicking leg lands to start the next attack, having the hip already pressed outward when you set the foot down will cause you to lose power in your next attack (which is usually a hand attack). Because of this, rechambering the kicking leg is very important, as that sets the hip back into place, ready to rotate with your next attack, whether it be a punch or kick.
In addition to hip and shoulder movement, each strike should be done as hard as possible. .Making each strike as hard as it can takes a lot of work and this training has no true ending. Though you will learn to strike harder, you are still striking as hard as you can, thus draining your physical strength. This goes back to the theory that Short Form is the foundation of all future material. Learn to punch and kick hard now so time won’t be wasted making them powerful later.

Balance and Stances of Short Form
Stances in Short Form are deep, which creates strength and balance in the legs. Balance is very important because without it, the hip and shoulder rotation is awkward, which then in turn decreases the striking power. Rechambering the attacks will help your balance. Deep stances will also improve balance as well as flexibility and strength. In many styles, the stance is considered the essence and foundation of the art. Without a strong foundation, a building will crumble. Ideally, the thigh should be parallel with the ground when standing in the Bo Stance. A great deal of flexibility and strength is required to maintain the stances. The only way to improve balance, strength, and flexibility in Short Form is to do Short Form. Again, Short Form is a foundation, build the foundation now so the building won’t crumble.

Blocking in Short Form
Every block should be crippling to the enemy. When blocking the head, the arm goes up in arc to clear the attacker’s limb out of the way. This clearing also begins the hip rotation. Blocking in front is done as if you’re attacking. Remember that each block is an attack and vice versa. Blocking as if you’re striking will make sure the opponent will be hurt no matter what he does.

Stepping in Short Form
Stepping is done as if stepping over a fallen opponent. Step in a straight line. After each short form, bring the heel up almost to kick yourself in the butt, then step through. When you step, your body should not rise higher than the height of your bo stance; the same goes for when you throw an attack. This builds strength and balance in your steps.

Apologies to KungFuGenius for posting without his permission, but I thought this was very good and AT THE TIME it was posted on a public forum. :(

Wo-ho! Haven't seen this in a while. I've been going over this topic's old posts and came across this :D Gotta say it's pretty flattering to be randomly found here :cool: But for clarification, I'm actually not a TN student, and certainly not a master. :p

[shen ku]

any one heard anything about what GMS will be teaching in the fall??

[Judge Pen]

Wo-ho! Haven't seen this in a while. I've been going over this topic's old posts and came across this :D Gotta say it's pretty flattering to be randomly found here :cool: But for clarification, I'm actually not a TN student, and certainly not a master. :p

Nope, you're a WV student and a very good one at that. And your summation of short form theory is one of the best I've heard (and one I refer to from time to time).

[KungFuGenius]

Nope, you're a WV student and a very good one at that. And your summation of short form theory is one of the best I've heard (and one I refer to from time to time).
Thanks for simultaneously giving me a great compliment and creeping me out :D Have we met a time before?

[Mas Judt]

No, you probably haven't seen him since the restraining order...:D

[Judge Pen]

Thanks for simultaneously giving me a great compliment and creeping me out :D Have we met a time before?

Only on the forums (this one and the old Mullins forum). I have a good memory.

[shen ku]

for shaolin-do people.. "iron bone training" what do you do and how do you do it? do you play around with other ideas from other areas also?

[Judge Pen]

My wife and I had our son on August 19, 2010. I can't wait to start his training....:D

[solo1]

congrats Judge. Outstanding work. They make gi's for infants right? if not we just invented much needed niche!

[iunojupiter]

Congrats on the new baby boy!

[GeneChing]

Remember: potty training first. mabu training second. ;)

[LaterthanNever]

I just noticed: 13,048 replies to this? Time to lock this thread. Even better would be to abolish it and make a new rule of no mentioning Shaolin-Doo-Doo..er..I mean Shaolin-Do (cough) again.

[PalmStriker]

Are Shaolin-do and Shaolin Kungfu the same thing? Could someone clarify? :)

[Dragonzbane76]

No....

please let this thread die in peace now. :p

[shen ku]

It will never die!!!!!! hahahahahaha

[taai gihk yahn]

I just noticed: 13,048 replies to this? Time to lock this thread. Even better would be to abolish it and make a new rule of no mentioning Shaolin-Doo-Doo..er..I mean Shaolin-Do (cough) again.


No....

please let this thread die in peace now. :p

this close to 1,000 pages?!? never!!!

[MasterKiller]

shaolin-do, however, as the most direct line from the southern shaolin temple, can be thought of as an ancestor of all others.

lol ! Did this guy even read the thread?

[Dragonzbane76]

Shaolin-do, however, as the most direct line from the southern Shaolin Temple, can be thought of as an ancestor of all others.

hahahahhahahahahahahhahahah....

and hahahhahahahahah lolololololo......


where the hell did you crawl out from under?? seriously.

[taai gihk yahn]

PalmStriker,
In answer to your question, no they are not the same thing. There are many styles of Kungfu which trace their origins to Shaolin and therefore are forms of Shaolin Kungfu. Shaolin-do, however, as the most direct line from the southern Shaolin Temple, can be thought of as an ancestor of all others.
LOL, that has got to be the most ridiculous statement in the history of ever;


Hope that helps add some clarity to the situation.:)
yes, it's clear you have drunk deeply of the SD Kool Aid

[pmosiun]

This thread is not going to be close in order to reach 1000?

[taai gihk yahn]

my son is starting 1st grade next week; when this thread began, he had not even been born yet...

[Dragonzbane76]

this thread is older than your son!... it has emotional attachment now... we cannot close it.

[Old Noob]

This thread is the oldest, purist thread. It is the ancestor of all other threads. It is superior to all other forms of threads and is the most authentic thread.;)

P.S.
Congrats JP!!!

[Dragonzbane76]

Did you say way back that you started out in North West Virginia?
Happen to have known Vernard and Larry?

that's where I live.??

[OldandUsed]

JP, congrats on the new addition! Hope the baby and mom are doing well.

[Dragonzbane76]

no can't say i do know them. Like you said before my time. Jenkins? Hum... must be down in the southern part, boardering TN?

[PalmStriker]

This thread is the oldest, purist thread. It is the ancestor of all other threads. It is superior to all other forms of threads and is the most authentic thread.;)

P.S.
Congrats JP!!!

I was kidding about wanting to know the difference between the"TWO SCHOOLS". One is "old thread", and the other "new thread". Got that much. :D

[Judge Pen]

Howdy Neighbor!
Did you know Vernard & Larry? They were probably before your time and most othere people here. They taught at an elementary school on 23 at Pound back in the late seventies, early eighties. Vernard was killed in a helicopter crash several years ago and I don't know what happened to Larry. Both were great guy's. I lived on the other side of the mountain (in Jenkins) then.

You mean Southwest Virginia. ;) Vernard was my first teacher. I reached 1st black under his instruction before he died in the helecopter crash. I was one of the pallbearers in his funeral. I didn't really know Larry.

[taai gihk yahn]

that with all the USSD chatter of late, that the other Special Shaolin Sauce School doesn't get forgotten, especially so near to 1,000 pages!

[goju]

it's strange how Kwai chaine coincidentally dissapeared from this board on the month he was supposed to fly down here to kick my ass.

maybe one of those cults near Denvers airport got him!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

[taai gihk yahn]

it's strange how Kwai chaine coincidentally dissapeared from this board on the month he was supposed to fly down here to kick my ass.

maybe one of those cults near Denvers airport got him!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

or went to him for lessons...

or maybe he is the eminence gris behind the new USSD spin off...

or maybe it's the leprechauns...

[goju]

hopefully its not the first one all we need is for the gun toting, dooms day christian militias here to be armed with the hidden secret techniques of shaolin do!:eek:

[taai gihk yahn]

maybe his meeting just ran late?

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5353&d=1248571462

[goju]

lol:D:D:D:D:D:D

[PalmStriker]

Who's the guy with the red hair in the GrandMasters Gallery? I think I've seen him in some of the Shaw Bro's films. good Kungfu.

[taai gihk yahn]

lol:D:D:D:D:D:D

credit where due - it's LKFMDC's handiwork (my suggestion though - but he's the one w/photoshop)

[Syn7]

im actually an indigo belt in orthodox shaolin-do kungfu karate...


i can kill a man with a single touch...




and if youre female, i can also poison your mind with impure thoughts with a glance... ;)

[shen ku]

just curious what anyone thought of GM Sins fall seminar? for me it was most likely one of the best ones i have ever been to under him, honestly

[ktkungfu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6GJHOagIyY

FWIW - I know this is beginners performing.

But is this the golden tiger set you were referring to?

Anyone have a better video of this form?

[kungfujunky]

so i was looking at GM Thes site and noticed Las vegas and Phx schools are missing now....anyone know whats happened?

[mig]

I was wondering if someone has heard from this:

http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/index.html

Thanks.

[EarthDragon]

I wouldnt take it seriously, first thing I saw right away was a guy claiming to be Shaolin, then I noticed he's wearing a japanese Gi..............red flag

[mig]

What surprises me is the number of forms and the credits he has earned as well as the number of schools all around. Then the spelling of different forms. This is the reason why I am curious about this. Thanks.

[EarthDragon]

I would not join if thats what you were wondering, sounds too cheesy and too commercial. are you looking for a school to train at? you can always ask who's a good instructor in your area, and many will be glad to help you.

[David Jamieson]

go to the shaolin thread.

read the "is shaolin do for real" thread

:)

[Knifefighter]

I was wondering if someone has heard from this:

http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/index.html

Thanks.

He's about as legit as Earth Dragon here.

[EarthDragon]

mig,
if your looking to do TCMA dont let trolls like knifefighter talk bad about what it is you wish to do, hes a really bitter guy when it comes to traditional arts, so pay no mind to what he says. hope you find what you are looking for.. be well

[David Jamieson]

He's about as legit as Earth Dragon here.

He's more legit thatn knifefighter here, has more students, makes more money and has more wimmins. :D

the biggest question mark about The is his back story which is obviously a fiction.

the biggest question mark about knifefighter is why does a dog brother hang around kung fu forums whining about the members and what they do?

[EarthDragon]

He's about as legit as Earth Dragon here.

LOl is this what knife said about me??????
dale frank try a search on google about me, ask anyone on the mantis board about me, reqd about me all over the internet search the mantiscave and read about my credentials they speak for themselves.

but seriously why would you purposley post on this thread, high jack it and attemt to put people down, to a guy who is asking a a simple question looking for a honest answer?

I feel sorry for your parents, wife and kids cuz your an arsehole and embarrasment to your family ...grow up its like dealing with a 9 year old

[Knifefighter]

LOl is this what knife said about me??????
dale frank try a search on google about me, ask anyone on the mantis board about me, reqd about me all over the internet search the mantiscave and read about my credentials they speak for themselves.

Google search results: sin kwang the = 350 results.

Google search results: sifu michael haley = 4 results, 3 of them from posts here.

Based on your own suggestion, looks like he is about 90 times more legit than you are.

[David Jamieson]

oooh oooh search me!!!

I'm a british politician, a victoria cross war hero from ww1, a painter from new york with an art school, a designer, I'm all those things! lol

I think he meant search your name vs him.
Dale you have one of those ubiquitous names too!

I'm pretty sure you're not running a bike blog, and you're not a 1badbluebj doppleganger posting american political crap all over facebook...

lol.

man, put the petty down and back away already!
You came onto here as like said and deliberately picked some feces off your bum and started to throw it at him.

how exactly does that give you any cred whatsoever? Or are you happy to be relegated to the position of KFM troll? :rolleyes:

[EarthDragon]

LOL he did search me LMAO I think hes stalking me for real now hahah. he found an old post from when I got out of prison and made a thread about it.. hes too much. i dont have ex girlfriedns that obsess with me as much as cul de sac does. should I be flatterred or scared?

[David Jamieson]

LOL he did search me LMAO I think hes stalking me for real now hahah. he found an old post from when I got out of prison and made a thread about it.. hes too much. i dont have ex girlfriedns that obsess with me as much as cul de sac does. should I be flatterred or scared?

dude, he's just going further down the road into his creepy old man modality.
don't stoop to it once you've had your say.

[EarthDragon]

I actually am getting creeped out that a grown man is stalking me everyday on the internet. I should call dateline to catch a predetor. seriously whats wrong with this dude?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Man, it's like a sausage fest in here.

Where be all the wimmins?

[taai gihk yahn]

ttt, because we can't let the USSD thread keep our eyes off the big prize...

[goju]

id like to think im largely responsible for making this thread thisl ong:D

[taai gihk yahn]

id like to think im largely responsible for making this thread thisl ong:D

I guess we all need at least one thing in life to feel proud of...

[goju]

I guess we all need at least one thing in life to feel proud of...

and this will be here on the first page of this subforum forevever so all the worlds future generations can see.:D

[John Dufresne]

Hello Judge Penn,

From time to time as you know I like to stop in here to say hello. Its been a long time my friend-- I hope you and your family have a wonderful holiday season. Im still living up here in Mass--I returned from China in April- I started a Wushu class again in Ipswitch, Mass - I look forward to teaching Wushu to kids again, as I have only been teaching Tai-Chi and Ba-Gua for years now..

Please stay in touch and God Bless

John D:)

[Judge Pen]

Hello Judge Penn,

From time to time as you know I like to stop in here to say hello. Its been a long time my friend-- I hope you and your family have a wonderful holiday season. Im still living up here in Mass--I returned from China in April- I started a Wushu class again in Ipswitch, Mass - I look forward to teaching Wushu to kids again, as I have only been teaching Tai-Chi and Ba-Gua for years now..

Please stay in touch and God Bless

John D:)

Hey John,

Thanks for the warm wishes. My family is growing as I now have a 2 month old son to go with my 4 year old daughter. Work is keeping me busy and my training has really suffered from it. But all is well and there are no complaints. Take care John.

[kungfujunky]

Hey Judge you only have what 3? years until your test for Associate Master?

Keep it rolling my man and congrats on the baby!

[Judge Pen]

Hey Judge you only have what 3? years until your test for Associate Master?

Keep it rolling my man and congrats on the baby!

I have no plans to attempt to advance in rank. Rank was never especially relevant to me. I respect people because of their knowledge, skill and demeanor. That doesn't necessarily follow rank in my experience.

[Judge Pen]

Oh and thanks for the congrats on the baby. My kids are, by far, my best acheivment in my life.

[OldandUsed]

JP,

Excellent response. Concur 100%.

[bawang]

the answer is yes

shaolin do is for real.

[OldandUsed]

OMG! Sammo!

[bawang]

i lied.

shaolin do is not for real.

[hap]

I've been trying to figure out what "Si Men Dao Lian" is (proper Chinese translation) for some times.

First of all, is this the correct pinyin spelling? If so, could it be "四门道练" (if you read Chinese)?

In a related matter, what is "Si Men Dao Lian" anyhow? Is it related to "Si Men Quan (Si Men Fist, 四门拳)," a.k.a. "Si Fang Quan (四方拳)," or more specifically, "Si Men Lian Quan (四门连拳)," which is a sequence of movements within Si Men Quan?

-Hap




I have heard it called that, as well. Si (Se) Men is definately four door. But I haven't been able to identify that word "lien" or "lian" as "break" or anything like that. Dao could possibly really be "da", which is strike or hit...but I still can't find a good meaning for "lian" that makes sense in this context. I just don't know enough about the language. With the actual characters we could put this to rest, I hope it's legible! :)

I disagree that we teach a karate like style...maybe kuntao like, but kuntao is supposed to be the Indonesian word for Chinese martial arts, right? The most karate-like part are the one step sparring and techniques at yellow and blue, and the nunchaku spinning, I guess. The forms, right from the beginning, are definately nothing like any Okinawan or Japanese karate kata. The basic staff spins and form are not Okinawan in any way. They maybe taught and practiced in a way that doesn't "flow" really well, but their content is not karate at all. Even the Lohan short forms, while we pratice them in a way that you might see in a karate school, moving from one side of the school to the other, they are not at all like karate basics (and I believe other Chinese arts have drills like this, too, like tan tui).
The only thing that makes people think it looks like karate is the halting manner in which it is performed sometimes (and the fact that we're usually wearing a gi).
If the basic and brown belt forms were performed with the right "flavor", they'd look like "real cma" as well, I believe. I'll test out that theory with my videos, if I ever manage to make them.

I'm sure you're right, the way we are taught early on affects the way we perform the more recognizeable "cma" forms later on, like the drunken style and the hua fist, and the hsing i.

[hap]

This is a good place to start a Mandarin Chinese translation of the CSC (Chinese Shao-Lin Center) curriculum. There are variation (materials taught) between Schools, but so far, curricula from White to 3rd Brown are listed -- I suppose more can be added later; feel free to contribute. :)

Note that the curriculum spelling uses the old Wade-Giles system, which is phonetically translated from Cantonese pronunciation. Pinyin, on the other hand, is the official system used in Mandarin Chinese to transcribe Chinese characters. Simplified Chinese is also added for your benefit. I suggest this site (http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php), if you want to get an idea of the English translation. Once at the site, simply copy/paste the Chinese characters (see below) into the search link.


Forms (but more like tao-lu, or 套路, or sequence of movements within longer/complete forms):
1. Lohan Short Form = Luohan Fist, but of some kind of "local/personal" favor tailored by CSC (this is typical, historically, in the Shaolin arts)
2. Si Meng T'ao Lian = Si Men Dao Lian = 四门倒连
3. Fei Hu Ch'u Tung = Fei Hu Chu Dong = 飞虎出洞
4. T'ai P'eng Sin Kune (or Sin Chi'h) = Da Peng Shen Chi = 大鹏伸翅
5. Lohan Ch'ien = Luohan Quan = 罗汉拳

Sparring:
1. Chin Na = Qin Na = 擒拿
2. Le Pu Tue Ta = Yi Bu Dui Da = 一步对打
3. Le Pu Fa Shu = Yi Bu Fa Shu = 一步法术

Weapons:
1. Se Mien Pa Fang Pang = Si Mian Ba Fang Bang = 四面八方棒
2. Pei Fang Ch'i Kai Pang = Bei Fang Qi Gai Bang = 北方乞丐棒
3. Er Chie Kuen = Er Jie Gun = 二节棍

Others:
1. I Chin Ching = Yi Jin Jing = 易筋经
2. T'ai Chi Ch'uan = Tai Ji Quan = 太极拳


-Hap




It's true, no one ever demonstrates the beginner material. I wouldn't say SD teaches traditional northern shaolin at all, none of the sets you listed are in the curriculum. The preliminary material that everyone learns first are mostly self-defense and fighting oriented. For me, the first qi gong presented was in the form of taijiquan postures like holding ball and white crane apreads wings, and the universal posture, this was taught along with the simplified 24 form from the very beginning. later, hou tian qi breathing methods and meditation postures were presented in a yearly or twice yearly class. Five animal play and xian tian qi were taught after about 1.5/2 years, again only as a special class taught once or twice a year. The real preliminary material for the long forms, I feel, is the 30 short forms, which are taught from day one. The short forms are longfist-like patterns of 2-6 techniques each that move in a straight line forward and back, mostly closed fist hands techniques. This is where the traditional stances are learned, long low stances are emphasized for stretching and strengthening. The techniques from the short forms are found in some of the forms learned later on, like jie quan. Along with the 30 forms, there are some very short routines taught like si men tao lian, fei hu chu dong, tai peng shen quan, and luohan quan (which is not anything like the shaolin ones, it is a very short preliminary mantis form).

After these, some forms more moderate in length and difficulty are taught. san he quan, which is a fukien-style sanzhan-like form. Three forms called white crane circles wings, white crane jabs wings, white crane circles legs (which might really all be one form). These have some fukien-like elements, but are not like any of the fukien white crane styles I've seen. They include ground techniques, rolling and drop kick/ground sweeps.

Then there are the three bird forms. These have longfist-like elements from the , such as the long stances and straight leg kicks, but most of the hand techniques are open hand finger and palms, and there are some southern-like elements, such as a sequence using the three battle stance from san he quan.

Then comes jie quan, lian wu zhang, and jin gang fu hu quan, which I feel are closest in style to the type of northern longfist forms practiced in Taiwan. I know jie quan is a form used by chin woo, and maybe all three of these came from a chin woo someplace before they ended up in Bandung in the 1950s.

After this, comes the black tiger forms, black tiger rips the heart, BT turns the body, BT flips the body, and BT suffering wounds. These forms use loose whipping power with mostly open hands/palms. They are also quite athletic, with cartwheels, rolls and drops and kicking/sweeping and grabbing from the ground.

The the taijiquan 37 form is taught, or emphasized at this time (it may have been learned earlier on in a special class)

After these forms, baguazhang practice begins with the "original" form of jiang rong qiao (though he is not given credit or mentioned at all, don't think amny people know/realize this). After baguazhang comes xingyiquan with five roads, linkage form, 12 animals, and then a two person set combining the elements and animals. Also at this time the five animal play qi gong is emphasized, required material for testing along with the xingyiquan.

After the xingyiquan come a group of unrelated forms from various styles, a mantis form simply called "tang lang quan" which has tons of kicks and some rolling/ground attack, the hung gar-like tiger crane double form, and four roads of hua quan. After this is the drunken eight immortals system, one form for each immortal, as well as the hung sing choy li fut version of the five animal form (or one extremely similar to that).

After that, come more internal forms, the chen 83 posture old frame form, 8 animal baguazhang, and some other stuff I'm not sure about.
What comes after that, I don't know, if there is a formal curriculum for that stage.

At all levels, there are various weapon forms being taught along with the empty hand forms...different staff forms, short stick, dao, jian, spear, guan dao, chain whip, tiger hook swords, daggers

The material I just listed is meant to be taught over the course of fifteen years, minimum, according to the schedule the CSC in the west had in place. There are lots of other forms which are not part of the curriculum (yet) but which Sin The or the other masters teach in seminar format each year as they travel around the country.

[hap]

"四门倒连" doesn't make a lot of sense, even to a native speaker... but at least we have a possible translation!

Many thanks!
-Hap



hap

Se Mong Tau Lie
Taken from a 1969 list

OTD

[Mas Judt]

I thought it would be funny to post this here.

I'll probably open a public school in the near future. For the sake of convenience and affordability, I expect to use Karate Gi's for my CMA/IMA club.

It's common in Holland, and many Silat schools have adopted gi's and belts. It is so efficient, I can't see a better option.

Just don't confuse me with a Shaolin Do school though ;)

[Leto]

you're not getting off that easy! We all know now that if you wear a Japanese gi, it must be JMA! CMA doens't wear uniforms, and IMA has to wear traditional Indonesian garb! c'mon. have these 1,000,000,000 posts taught us nothing?

[Judge Pen]

I thought it would be funny to post this here.

I'll probably open a public school in the near future. For the sake of convenience and affordability, I expect to use Karate Gi's for my CMA/IMA club.

It's common in Holland, and many Silat schools have adopted gi's and belts. It is so efficient, I can't see a better option.

Just don't confuse me with a Shaolin Do school though ;)

Shaolin-do: Ahead of the curve.

[Mas Judt]

Maybe I'll call my school 'Wu Tang Do'



Only kidding!!

[kungfujunky]

From Mullins Shaolin:

Happening Now at Phoenix, Arizona
During our visit with Grand Master Sin Kwang The' in November, we were notified by the Grand Master that he personally removed Jake Ryberg (Mace) from the Shaol...in system. This occurred in a face to face meeting and was followed up with a legal Cease and Desist court order. His removal from the system was brought about by conduct unbecoming of a martial artist (lack of honor and integrity).

[bodhi warrior]

I wonder what this mace guy did? David soard commits sexual harrasement crimes against women and still has sin the's support.
I can see how sin can make someone stop using the shaolin-do name, his name and such. But the material is not owned by sin. His brother teaches it as well as people in Indonesia. He cannot own material that he learned from other people.

[Leto]

I'm sure the Soards and their schools bring in lots of money hosting seminars. there used to be 100+ students attending the festival in Denver every year. Kick him out and all the schools under him follow; Denver and Boulder have the largest student body of any of the CSCs.
If I were in Mr Rydberg's position, I'd actually be relieved. He's free now to structure his teaching however he wants, charge whatever he wants, and tell the truth about everything as far as it is known. The system used by the CSCs is pretty terrible. And I really don't think he was learning much from GMT, anyway. I wish him luck and hope he isn't really lacking honor and integrity.

[OldandUsed]

In light of some of the activity engaged by teachers/members of CSC (and other SD schools), I would love to know just what Mace did to cause his expulsion.

[kungfujunky]

I agree with you Oldandused. I am curious what the real issue is here.

I know Jake and find it hard to believe he would fall under the heading of lacking integrity and honor. He is a very dedicated martial artist.

[bodhi warrior]

I remember about 5 years ago I attended one of the golden leopard seminars. After the seminar sin the sat us all down to make a big announcement. His movie was going to be released shortly and that once people saw it they would be lining up around the corner to sign their kids up. He said it would make shaolin do bigger than taekwondo, even bigger than soccer. He said we were sitting on a gold mine.
Of course the movie still hasn't came out. The whole context of the speech to me was, making more money.

[OldandUsed]

Unfortunately, that seems to be a common occurance with him over the last several years.

[bodhi warrior]

So was master Eric smith kicked out of the system too? Or did he just quit?
The reason I ask is..he is no longer listed on the SDA website list of masters. Just curious. I always thought he was one of the most skilled people in the system.

[shen ku]

i just checked the SDA site and he is still in the photo area of the master so i don't know what site you checked??......... shaolin-do.com???

[bodhi warrior]

Your correct. My fault. I was looking at the sinthe.com website.

[Judge Pen]

i just checked the SDA site and he is still in the photo area of the master so i don't know what site you checked??......... shaolin-do.com???

You can't trust the SDA site to be a complete list of those masters under Sin The. They only list the SDA masters so Master Mullins etc are not referenced on that site.

[shen ku]

thats correct, it is only masters in the SDA, not CSC or any of the other areas and such, there for its only a partial list of those in the over all system

[Golden Tiger]

You can check here for a somewhat complete listing...

http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/masters_main.html

[MasterKiller]

LOL at this:

http://www.etsy.com/listing/61872163/kung-fu-warewolf-4x6-inch-original?ref=sr_gallery_28&ga_search_query=kung+fu&ga_search_type=handmade&ga_page=5&order=&includes[0]=tags&includes[1]=title&filter[0]=handmade

[Lucas]

MERGE!!!!

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59484

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL at this:

http://www.etsy.com/listing/61872163/kung-fu-warewolf-4x6-inch-original?ref=sr_gallery_28&ga_search_query=kung+fu&ga_search_type=handmade&ga_page=5&order=&includes[0]=tags&includes[1]=title&filter[0]=handmade

LOL...it had to be a Canadian. I have an art degree from the University of Georgia. I could whip up a Cubist "warewolf" LOL......or maybe a Dada Tai Djin.

I wonder what Worhol or Pollock would have done. A Shaolin Do linoleum drip?

[Northwind]

LOL...it had to be a Canadian. I have an art degree from the University of Georgia....
Sorry for the snip but...
Do I know you? I'm the northern shaolin guy down here

[Shaolin Wookie]

I remember about 5 years ago I attended one of the golden leopard seminars. After the seminar sin the sat us all down to make a big announcement. His movie was going to be released shortly and that once people saw it they would be lining up around the corner to sign their kids up. He said it would make shaolin do bigger than taekwondo, even bigger than soccer. He said we were sitting on a gold mine.
Of course the movie still hasn't came out. The whole context of the speech to me was, making more money.

Even in North Korea I'm sure they'd give the ol' SD movie the boot. There is no world and no country in which the SD story could possibly be interesting, short of Sin The' getting Tony Jaa in on the stunts.

I keep picturing this clip, with Teen Wolf in the Hero's role:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxkr4wS7XqY

Wish him all the best, though.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Sorry for the snip but...
Do I know you? I'm the northern shaolin guy down here

Nope. I've seen your ad on the Atlanta pages but you're out of my driving range. I love to cross-train, but I'm not into the park-kungfu thing. THe only Northern Shaolin/wushu stuff I've practiced outside of SD in the Atlanta area was with Yinzhang Wang...but that was several years back. None of the Atlanta Shaolin schools do any sparring worth a **** outside of SD that I've seen. Practiced MMA for 2 years, did Capoeira with Mestre Robson, and I got a BJJ Blue Belt from a Gracie Barra Jiujitsu school. But I'm an SD guy at the core.

If you have a grasp of its chin-na and short forms, SD's basic techniques are like Hobbes's description of the state of Nature:

Nasty, brutish, and short.

[Northwind]

Nope. I've seen your ad on the Atlanta pages but you're out of my driving range. I love to cross-train, but I'm not into the park-kungfu thing. THe only Northern Shaolin/wushu stuff I've practiced outside of SD in the Atlanta area was with Yinzhang Wang...but that was several years back. None of the Atlanta Shaolin schools do any sparring worth a **** outside of SD that I've seen. Practiced MMA for 2 years, did Capoeira with Mestre Robson, and I got a BJJ Blue Belt from a Gracie Barra Jiujitsu school. But I'm an SD guy at the core.

If you have a grasp of its chin-na and short forms, SD's basic techniques are like Hobbes's description of the state of Nature:

Nasty, brutish, and short.

Whoah...I was being nice, but since you went there...
1) What is "Park kung fu"?
2) Northern Shaolin has nothing to do with "wushu" the way you slashed it
3)YZWang sux
4) Really? Looks like you haven't seen ANYthing bro.
5) Sorry, but SD did not create what you call Chin-na. Qin Na is in every style and I more than have a grasp of it.

Surprised you reacted this way to my asking if we knew each other simply since I noticed we are in the same area and studied at the same school (UGA). Now it looks like you may have crossed the line. I do hope I interpreted your intentions incorrectly...

[Old Noob]

Whoah...I was being nice, but since you went there...
1) What is "Park kung fu"?
2) Northern Shaolin has nothing to do with "wushu" the way you slashed it
3)YZWang sux
4) Really? Looks like you haven't seen ANYthing bro.
5) Sorry, but SD did not create what you call Chin-na. Qin Na is in every style and I more than have a grasp of it.

Surprised you reacted this way to my asking if we knew each other simply since I noticed we are in the same area and studied at the same school (UGA). Now it looks like you may have crossed the line. I do hope I interpreted your intentions incorrectly...

He may have reacted "this way" to your assertion that you are "the" Northern Shaolin guy in Atlanta. But I don't need to speak for Wook. He's perfectly capable.

BTW, he never suggested that SD created Chin-na. He merely stated that the applications of SD's Chin-na and short forms were sufficient, for him, such that he did not need to look elsewhere for combative training.

Not sure why you're offended.

[Northwind]

He may have reacted "this way" to your assertion that you are "the" Northern Shaolin guy in Atlanta. But I don't need to speak for Wook. He's perfectly capable.

BTW, he never suggested that SD created Chin-na. He merely stated that the applications of SD's Chin-na and short forms were sufficient, for him, such that he did not need to look elsewhere for combative training.

Not sure why you're offended.

Unfortunately it's because I am the northern shaolin guy in Atlanta. I am referring to northern shaolin the style, not northern as a geographic distinction from southern shaolin. It's not Henan temple Shaolin.

That's cool though - perhaps I interpreted it incorrectly. Was just reaching out to a fellow martial artist living in the same city, who went to the same university; kinda thought the odds were that we had run into each other before, but didn't realize it due to the internet aliases :P

[Shaolin Wookie]

Whoah...I was being nice, but since you went there...
1) What is "Park kung fu"?
2) Northern Shaolin has nothing to do with "wushu" the way you slashed it
3)YZWang sux
4) Really? Looks like you haven't seen ANYthing bro.
5) Sorry, but SD did not create what you call Chin-na. Qin Na is in every style and I more than have a grasp of it.

Surprised you reacted this way to my asking if we knew each other simply since I noticed we are in the same area and studied at the same school (UGA). Now it looks like you may have crossed the line. I do hope I interpreted your intentions incorrectly...

LOL....don't take it personal bro. I wasn't slighting you in the least. When I practice, I'd rather be in a gym, and I figured you were the guy that taught outside in a "park." I have seen Northern Shaolin and practiced it, as well as its Wushu variety. YZWang is good at what he does--there's no need to hate any fellow MA b/c he doesn't do a style we prefer or we practice. We just prefer something else. If I express a preference (viz. a value judgment), don't take it as an empirical statement (viz. a fact). As for Chin-na, I don't give a **** who created it. IF it works, it's good. If it doesn't it's bull. BJJ and Judo put new lifesblood into my Chin-na as one of hte finest ways to hurt people without bruising them. I happen to like that.

You asked, I answered. If you feel I haven't seen anything, that's cool bro. I don't care....LOL. Have a nice day.:)

[bodhi warrior]

Nope. I've seen your ad on the Atlanta pages but you're out of my driving range. I love to cross-train, but I'm not into the park-kungfu thing. THe only Northern Shaolin/wushu stuff I've practiced outside of SD in the Atlanta area was with Yinzhang Wang...but that was several years back. None of the Atlanta Shaolin schools do any sparring worth a **** outside of SD that I've seen. Practiced MMA for 2 years, did Capoeira with Mestre Robson, and I got a BJJ Blue Belt from a Gracie Barra Jiujitsu school. But I'm an SD guy at the core.

If you have a grasp of its chin-na and short forms, SD's basic techniques are like Hobbes's description of the state of Nature:

Nasty, brutish, and short.

I agree with what you say about the basic techniques. I've always thought that the material from white to black was some of the best we have. Back in the beginning when SD produced many good fighters, there just wasn't a huge catalogue of material. People practiced the same sets over and over, and sparred alot. It seems people today just want to get to the next form without understanding what their learning at the moment. I know some people that completely forgot the beginning material once they got to black belt. They just stopped practicing them. That's my 2 cents.

[shen ku]

AMEN!! my shao-lin do brother

[kungfujunky]

I agree with what you say about the basic techniques. I've always thought that the material from white to black was some of the best we have. Back in the beginning when SD produced many good fighters, there just wasn't a huge catalogue of material. People practiced the same sets over and over, and sparred alot. It seems people today just want to get to the next form without understanding what their learning at the moment. I know some people that completely forgot the beginning material once they got to black belt. They just stopped practicing them. That's my 2 cents.

Well said!

[sean_stonehart]

He may have reacted "this way" to your assertion that you are "the" Northern Shaolin guy in Atlanta. But I don't need to speak for Wook. He's perfectly capable.

BTW, he never suggested that SD created Chin-na. He merely stated that the applications of SD's Chin-na and short forms were sufficient, for him, such that he did not need to look elsewhere for combative training.

Not sure why you're offended.


Well... considering I know both of them... Northwinds is "the northern Shaolin guy" here. He's the only guy in town teaching Buk Siu Lum. There are a couple of other Northern teaches here in town, but he is the only BSL guy.

Wookie is quite capable & knowing him, BSL isn't up his alley. He'd be bored to tears. SD works for him & good on him for that.

In reading the posts, I think there was a bit of misreading the posts.

[shen ku]

sean,,,, got any peanut butter? lol hope all is great in your world

[sean_stonehart]

sean,,,, got any peanut butter? lol hope all is great in your world

Naw man... just got done with a snow mess down here... I do have jerkey & oatmeal though!!

:-)

How's life treating you?

[shen ku]

oh man life is great,,, i am still on the right side of the grass???

[curenado]

"When I practice, I'd rather be in a gym, and I figured you were the guy that taught outside in a "park."
That's funny - I need to make sure mine are forced to be outside more. I will say "Gym ladies! Lets take off those lotus shoes and be boys now! Out! Out!"

I have been conceiving a very long through-the-trees balance beam......one that has varying angles, heights and pole sizes. What a good winter project for the school.....

That "park" comment got me laughing and is going to make it rough on some vain little Ninjettes for awhile! Lol!

[sean_stonehart]

oh man life is great,,, i am still on the right side of the grass???

BWAHAHAHAA.... funny you mention that. I need to add some pics of China up on my Facebook page & that's one of them.

[sean_stonehart]

I teach in the same park as Northwinds. We share rude comments & gear. ;)

[Northwind]

I teach in the same park as Northwinds. We share rude comments & gear. ;)
And hotpants. Don't forget the hotpants :P

[sean_stonehart]

And hotpants. Don't forget the hotpants :P

It remains quiet or it gets the hose & dirty diapers to wear...

[shen ku]

its funny how this thing will go crazy and then quiet....... just wanted to ask of those of us training in SD, other then your teacher or linage master, who is your favorite master in SD,, please don't so why?

[bodhi warrior]

I was always a big fan of Eric smith. He had a handle on the internal side like nobody else. He moved very well also. If I had to pick a second place it'd probably be bob green. Very good also.

[shen ku]

i kind of call some of those guys the "old school masters" nothing against some of the younger master, don't take that the wrong way.

[kungfujunky]

Master Mullins and Master Grooms.

Both have a very strong grasp on the intent and martial aspects of our forms.

[shen ku]

love to watch mullins do forms , and i really enjoy grooms' talks on .. well anything i've heard him talk about...

[One student]

its funny how this thing will go crazy and then quiet....... just wanted to ask of those of us training in SD, other then your teacher or linage master, who is your favorite master in SD,, please don't so why?

From perspective I have, having been trained/taught to some extent directly by, and been in class with, GMS and his brother, and EML (probably the least of them) and SMs Green and Smith, as well as having some social contact with each (other than Master Hiang), I'd suggest they each have their unique traits. As is well known I think GM Sin is more laid back, easy going, very approachable, obviously the "eldest" of them. Hiang was very detail oriented, more demanding. EML's practical fighting knowledge is unquestionable, as is his dedication to teaching. ES is very intense on theory and depth of techniques, with a very intellectual approach. BG has a knowledge of the internal styles and chi, including what I'd say is the most practical health and fighting aspects of the internal arts (to my own observation), that is not truly known or appreciated by almost anyone except those closest to him, and his grasp of the practical aspects of animal styles I think is much wider known.

Those who became "masters" after them, can't speak to though.

[shen ku]

well what can anyone say about those guys,, you just went for the top on that one.. but there are many of the , i guess i can call them second genration old school masters that have alot to offer out art also.

[tattooedmonk]

Happy New Year!!! How is everyone doing? Hope you are all doing well....

no matter who you are....:eek:

I see the more things change the more they stay the same around here. Glad to see that we have some consistancy in this regard. :D

If anyone wants to discuss something of intrinsic value I will be more than happy to engage ,if not....forget it.

Is it me or is the art/ system being watered down more than usual?


Blessed be to all!!

[humbleman]

its funny how this thing will go crazy and then quiet....... just wanted to ask of those of us training in SD, other then your teacher or linage master, who is your favorite master in SD,, please don't so why?Master James Halliday of Erie PA. A perfectionist but always helping you to learn.:D

[shen ku]

lol.. i crossed paths with him at that gathering a few years ago in the free for all.... lets just say i'll NEVER do that again...lol

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm not a master, but I am undoubtedly my favortie practitioner of SD. I think that my knowledge of SD is more important than anyone else's knowledge of SD, including that of any SD MAster.

This sounds like hubris, but in reality, it doesn't matter what anyone else knows about SD or how cool they sound when they talk about SD or techniques if I can't do jack **** for myself. When a Master says: "Do this just this way and you will get results," such a statement is meaningless as a guide to action unless I actually do it. It's not just about forms or applications, and which one is more important. I have to know when to do the forms or applications and why, but I can only know these things by doing. I know for a fact that Masters do not have a monopoly on this knowledge, and many Masters in many MA's have never actually engaged in the "doing." SD is no exception.

Teachers are just teachers. Nobody can teach you anything in the usual CMA tradition of "I have knowledge," now "grok" my knowledge "in its fullness. Now our knowledge is the same. Prize my knowledge because I am the source of your knowledge." CMA is riddled with Eastern gibberish concerning epistemology, knowledge, and routine. Who cares what a Master can do? I could take a ****ty wushu form, whip it into shape, and kick someone's butt with it no problem. Am I doing wushu? What the hell does that even mean? Am I doing SD? Of course not. What the hell would that even mean? A backsweep is a backsweep only when a backsweep sweeps a person off of his feet. Prob. what Bruce Lee was talking about when he said MA was self-expression.

You learn not by doing or repeating and then reflecting on abstractions. You learn by getting results. There's no such thing as "cheating" a technique. A technique works or it doesn't. There's no such thing as "now give me your hand and let me twist it in precisely this way to make it hurt" Rather, there is only "here's how I get your hand and wrench the mother-****er." Only I can get results for myself. Hence, I am the most important practitioner of martial arts in the world. Masters are just people with a couple of stripes and diamonds on their belts. Who cares what they know? How can you prize an individual for knowledge? Only you can know things.

I might be grateful to a Master, but I learn many things that Masters do not teach me. I apply these things, and these things teach others. The whole "ranking" system seems to me a remnant of slavish Eastern feudalism. Knowledge is not a scarce resource. Share and share alike.

Food for thought.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've always liked SD b/c the school community doesn't have the rigidity of many traditional schools.

Some people who prize cultural differences as certificates of authenticity hate that communal aspect, but "traditionalists" always seem to be looking for self-importance by appropriating "knowledge" and then holding it over others' heads.

Seems to me like a big waste of time. Knowledge isn't owned. It's operated upon. All secrets, all techniques, all knowledge is open for operation. There is no ownership of martial arts.

[shen ku]

interesting.... let me ask you if you understand this statment...(just a thought)....... which is better or which do you view some people as having.... "having ten years experince or having one years experince ten times"

[Shaolin Wookie]

interesting.... let me ask you if you understand this statment...(just a thought)....... which is better or which do you view some people as having.... "having ten years experince or having one years experince ten times"

Who cares? I don't care what kind of knowledge it is better for other people to have.

As for the question itslef, it sounds like a fortune cookie and it lacks the profundity it wishes to command. Here's the key to all such questions like the one you just posed: "Or." "Or" creates false dilemmas. Take the "chicken or the egg" paradox... Why not exercise an "and"? The command of Conjunctions is fully in your grammatical power. As I said, knowledge is not a scarce resource.

[shen ku]

within your own statments is the answer to what i asked... i look at some people and for all i know you may very well be one of those that i look up and think "wow they have a real grasp of what their doing and what they know"... put you arguement seems full of ... selfworth..

my point was some people do things for ten years and only truly have one years worth of growth that they have just repeted doing over and over for ten years.. and some have ten years of continued growth and development.... do you not see this in people in life not just martial arts? do you not see those around you in your daily life that have not grown but have simple reached a level and just maintianed that? of course i have side tracked so... this has very little (as much does on here) with the subject...

but for some of us application (which i do spend much time on) is not the end all be all of our training ... i have said that if someones only goal is to defend ones self... well by a gun and practice a few times a month and carry it everywhere....
for the time you spend in training must surely have greater purpose.... then to simple be able to say.... i can woop somebodys a$$

but then again thats just my path.... and i am simple a fool... but a fool on a journey.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

within your own statments is the answer to what i asked... i look at some people and for all i know you may very well be one of those that i look up and think "wow they have a real grasp of what their doing and what they know"... put you arguement seems full of ... selfworth..

my point was some people do things for ten years and only truly have one years worth of growth that they have just repeted doing over and over for ten years.. and some have ten years of continued growth and development.... do you not see this in people in life not just martial arts? do you not see those around you in your daily life that have not grown but have simple reached a level and just maintianed that? of course i have side tracked so... this has very little (as much does on here) with the subject...

but for some of us application (which i do spend much time on) is not the end all be all of our training ... i have said that if someones only goal is to defend ones self... well by a gun and practice a few times a month and carry it everywhere....
for the time you spend in training must surely have greater purpose.... then to simple be able to say.... i can woop somebodys a$$

but then again thats just my path.... and i am simple a fool... but a fool on a journey.....

LOL...I've never understood the stigma attached to self-worth. Even within your answer, which criticizes the values other individuals attach to certain courses of action and the "understanding" they reach, is filled with self-worth. The difference is that yours is dishonest and mine is honest.

Here's the paradox. I play with with the techniques. I warp the techniques until they become Wookie-ized. The new wookie-ized technique works in all cases in which Wookie wishes to execute the technique, because Wookie understands the principles of leverage, torque, and structure. The SD "fool on a journey" looks at the Wookie-ized technique and says--you changed the material. You're "cheating" the technique. Wookie then explains the principles to other students that lie underneath the technique. When they apply principles, the technique begins to work. But they have to filter the principles through themselves and make the technique theirs.

There's no such thing as a thousand-year old technique. There's only the thousand-year old cachet and the technique I just executed a second ago.

[shen ku]

lol.. your taking me all wrong man,,, i agree with what you're saying.. but i first you was kind of dising on others, kind of to me anyways, like you couldn't learn anything from someone elsa?? but yes i have a saying i like and it fits with your out look (or at least i think)..... i have said that " i don't do GMS's SD i do my SD" because kind of like you said once a move has been shown to you its yours, how you read it how you study it how you choose to work it ,, thats all for you .... if your like to strick you work it from there, if you like to grab you see it that way.. if you like to toy with your prey then you see the ways to do that..

[Judge Pen]

A good teacher will recognize and cultivate your own unique abilities and help you make the techniques they teach work for you. Most of my teachers were gifted with more physical talent than I had (especially in the flexibility department). No matter how hard I tried, I would never be able to throw a hook kick, side kick or a round house kick the exact way that they did because my body was different. But I took the timing, principles and applications of the technique and found a way to make it work for me. And that was encouraged and complimented when effective.

Here's the thing though; I never stopped trying to do the technique the ideal way. The forms and the techniques are taught in a way to encourage growth and development even if you never do them "perfectly." You succeed when you do them effectively. The forms teach timing movement and principles but they also push you to increase stamina, flexibility and strength. I know very few people that can do even the most basic forms "perfectly." That's ok as long as you never stop striving.

So I guess I see and advocate both ways. The forms become yours once you learn them and your own style is how you can make the techniques work for you. However, you should never forget how the form was taught to you by others and continue to try to emulate your teachers. That is where the benefit of the tradition of the movement has worth.

[Shaolin Wookie]

That's where I disagree. I can show students applications for Short Forms #4, 7, 18, 25 (in CSC's system) etc. about a milltion times. Unless the student can grasp for himself or herself exactly what is going on (and it's the same **** thing in all four, but learned with different progressive applications all based on teh same entry/defense-against-a-throw move), one of the most important techniques of leverage and throwing the student can learn from the foundational CSC material will never make sense. It won't make sense for the student as long as the student is attempting to perform a technique in an "ideal" way. Performing the material in an "ideal" way only works in the abstract as a method of teaching material to large quantities of students at once (3+ students on up). As soon as a short person attempts to perform a technique on a larger student, the technique has to adapt and become completely personalized.

What does this personalization of technique contain? I figure 3 things:

1. understanding the underlying mechanics of leverage, root, and torque that operate in every technique--even in just standing up.

2. Understanding that there are contingencies that arise in differential weights, size, balance, and height, and that there is no "cheating" a technique. It works if it takes advantage of Rule #1.

3. Understanding that the "ideal" form is strictly a teaching tool, and not a tool from which personalized knowledge can be gained directly.

It's a bit like a one-size-fits-all tee-shirt. You give the same t-shirt to every student. They're supposed to then take the t-shirt and shrink it to their personal fit. If someone comes back wearing a t-shirt that's too big, saying, "I like it this way because it's comfortable," that's fine, but it's a guarantee that the student in question hasn't learned jack-shirt just yet. (Excuse the bad pun.)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here...let me put it another way that doesn't sound so critical (and I wasn't criticizing you personally as an MA, JP, just to make that clear).

Learning MA through the use of forms in any of its branches (Karate, TKD, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, SD, CSC, etc.) is very frustrating. It's frustrating because when you get a handle on underlying principles, you always feel like your teachers are teaching you the material "wrong." You imitate the ideal, and you always end up with garbage that doesn't work. You have to get a handle on the principles, and then ALL techniques and forms "work," even if you're doing BJJ, boxing, or whatever. It's always the same. It's the monkey-man technique that all higher apes employ in fighting.

In reality, "ideal" forms are always wrong. There's always something missing. That "thing" is me.

I'm not grateful to the Master of my school because he knows a lot of forms. I'm grateful to him for helping me understand the underlying principles that find expression in form and technique. He can't get inside my head and implant those principles, but by stressing principle over "ideal" forms at every turn, he teaches how to make all "ideal" forms find expression. All I try to do when I go to class for lessons is to figure out how to express underlying prinicples in new ways. Forms and techniques are really "useless" as "ideal" things. They have to be my things, and I have to express principles instead of mere "technique" or "structure."

Once you grasp the underlying principles, all questions like "when do I do this technique?" or, "what if my opponent shucks instead of jiving?" go right out of the window. Why? Because you already know that the principles will find expression if you've got them in your back pocket.

[Judge Pen]

Wookie I don't think we are disagreeing.

[Darthlawyer]

Wouldn't the "thing" that's missing also be an actual opponent? I mean, I could train to throw a particular punch or kick a particular way all the time, but if I don't actually modify that technique to take into effect positioning and height, etc, it'd be pretty useless.

[kwaichang]

All technigues have applications but like water there are different levels for different people, I do believe a technigue in its pure form is not known in any MA as it has been changed over time. Thus what we perceive to be the TRUE tech is in actuality a technique taught with ones spin or personality put in it, that is how a technique becomes our own. KC:)

[One student]

That's where I disagree. I can show students applications for Short Forms #4, 7, 18, 25 (in CSC's system) etc. about a milltion times. Unless the student can grasp for himself or herself exactly what is going on (and it's the same **** thing in all four, but learned with different progressive applications all based on teh same entry/defense-against-a-throw move), one of the most important techniques of leverage and throwing the student can learn from the foundational CSC material will never make sense. It won't make sense for the student as long as the student is attempting to perform a technique in an "ideal" way. Performing the material in an "ideal" way only works in the abstract as a method of teaching material to large quantities of students at once (3+ students on up). As soon as a short person attempts to perform a technique on a larger student, the technique has to adapt and become completely personalized.

What does this personalization of technique contain? I figure 3 things:

1. understanding the underlying mechanics of leverage, root, and torque that operate in every technique--even in just standing up.

2. Understanding that there are contingencies that arise in differential weights, size, balance, and height, and that there is no "cheating" a technique. It works if it takes advantage of Rule #1.

3. Understanding that the "ideal" form is strictly a teaching tool, and not a tool from which personalized knowledge can be gained directly.

It's a bit like a one-size-fits-all tee-shirt. You give the same t-shirt to every student. They're supposed to then take the t-shirt and shrink it to their personal fit. If someone comes back wearing a t-shirt that's too big, saying, "I like it this way because it's comfortable," that's fine, but it's a guarantee that the student in question hasn't learned jack-shirt just yet. (Excuse the bad pun.)

Isn't it true though that there is an "ideal" way to perform the form -- where the hand is, the feet are, the stance, etc. -- and doing it that way has its purposes; then also an "ideal" way to apply the technique(s) from the form, which may be infinite, and must be applied differently in the actual application -- a different way not only for each practitoner, but a different way against a taller or heavier opponent than with a shorter or lighter opponent. And some techniques, that wouldn't be applied at all to some opponents, because of their skill sets, body types, etc.

So there can be and "ideal" way to perform a form, that is not necessarily the or an "ideal" way to apply what is learned from it. Who's sparring looks like their form practice?

And maybe that is what each of you who have commented on the post are saying, just in different ways.

[One student]

All technigues have applications but like water there are different levels for different people, I do believe a technigue in its pure form is not known in any MA as it has been changed over time. Thus what we perceive to be the TRUE tech is in actuality a technique taught with ones spin or personality put in it, that is how a technique becomes our own. KC:)

Does anyone doubt, that any form done today, that has been passed down from a prior generation (or more) probably resembles the form as its creator made it very little, if at all. Maybe in degrees less or more, for example younger styles, or those more rigid in practice, but particularly Chinese forms which have gone through so many "hands" I suspect look nothing like what they were originally. Doesn't mean good or bad, just different. Part of why it is also "art."