Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[One student]

Here...let me put it another way that doesn't sound so critical (and I wasn't criticizing you personally as an MA, JP, just to make that clear).

Learning MA through the use of forms in any of its branches (Karate, TKD, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, SD, CSC, etc.) is very frustrating. It's frustrating because when you get a handle on underlying principles, you always feel like your teachers are teaching you the material "wrong." You imitate the ideal, and you always end up with garbage that doesn't work. You have to get a handle on the principles, and then ALL techniques and forms "work," even if you're doing BJJ, boxing, or whatever. It's always the same. It's the monkey-man technique that all higher apes employ in fighting.

In reality, "ideal" forms are always wrong. There's always something missing. That "thing" is me.

I'm not grateful to the Master of my school because he knows a lot of forms. I'm grateful to him for helping me understand the underlying principles that find expression in form and technique. He can't get inside my head and implant those principles, but by stressing principle over "ideal" forms at every turn, he teaches how to make all "ideal" forms find expression. All I try to do when I go to class for lessons is to figure out how to express underlying prinicples in new ways. Forms and techniques are really "useless" as "ideal" things. They have to be my things, and I have to express principles instead of mere "technique" or "structure."

Once you grasp the underlying principles, all questions like "when do I do this technique?" or, "what if my opponent shucks instead of jiving?" go right out of the window. Why? Because you already know that the principles will find expression if you've got them in your back pocket.

As I understand it, some schools preach forms very strictly. Some ignore them (isn't Jeet Kune Do and Ninjitsu and BJJ practice, among others, well respected styles but based on disavowing forms entirely, among others?). I've found that doing the forms has its athletic and conditioning component, that adds more to the physical conditioning and athletic training than just bare stretching and strength and endurance and cardio by itself. It also has its purpose and benefits in learning, from scratch, the things SW talks about -- torque, leverage, root, also balance, speed, focus, etc. And, I've found that with excessive repetition (doing it so many times not only that you do it right, but you can't do it wrong), the muscle memory factor is important -- I am by far no expert/master, but after constant repetition have found even me performing a technique suddenly when needed without thought -- learned from a repetitively practiced form. So I fall into the school of "forms practice is important".

But as I learned to drive a car by driving only one car for hours, I could eventually drive any car anywhere (I know the analogy is not exact but I like it anyway). So you/we are all also correct, in my opinion, for the practice to have defensive worth, forms practice by itelf is not enough. One has to practice on a bag, on a person, spar, and quite frankly I think even actually fight someone, to get it right, or know if it is right -- which for defense purposes means, "Did it work when it counts?"

My personal thought process has been for some time, that trying to perfect the application of short form X or sparring techique Y or long kata Z, as response to Attack Whatever, so that if opponent 1 does this, you respond with that, may make one a master after decades; BUT you have to prepare for opponent 1 doing an infinite variety of attacks, and an infinite variety of responses. I've often wondered, what is the one true best response, to each and every possible attack (I suppose every style thinks theirs is the answer to that).

But in the short run one has to understand first, application of force by an opponent must be universally met with A, B, or C -- and it doesn't matter if the force is by hand or foot or to head or body, you have to know how to respond whatever it is, wherever it is, instinctively and automatically. If your brain/body has to calculate "okay, this attack is coming from there and going to me here, the response to that is such and such," that person might be in trouble.

A variety of forms, practiced with practicality in mind, and practically applied, helps train a variety of reflexive responses. And I think maybe that is the point.

[kwaichang]

Even the Japanese arts changed the original Okinawan forms to have more emphasis on power over speed. It is just the nature of the beast, i feel one should strive to perform a technique as biomechanically perfect as possible and then the application will flow from there, KC

[taai gihk yahn]

Im back

http://thedjscorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/more-cowbell.jpg
;)

[kwaichang]

Thanks My favorite skit on SNL of all time thanks Taai, BTW just finished a paper on the effects of the SI joint on the Hip capsule and connective tissue and ROM.

[Judge Pen]

Wouldn't the "thing" that's missing also be an actual opponent? I mean, I could train to throw a particular punch or kick a particular way all the time, but if I don't actually modify that technique to take into effect positioning and height, etc, it'd be pretty useless.

PM me please.

[kwaichang]

I have found the angle of the technique changes the out come of the defense. So i think at times what appears to be a punch is actually a block. KC:D

[kwaichang]

Where are all my foes and friends?

[shen ku]

just trying to get ready for GMS seminar

[tattooedmonk]

Where are all my foes and friends?

LMAO......I am here, but I dont know as to which one I am....maybe both!!!lol

[OldandUsed]

Enjoying the exchange, for once. Good discussion.

[Darthlawyer]

just trying to get ready for GMS seminar

I'm really excited about this year's fall seminar. I'm wondering which drunk it'll be. I'm hoping for the flute player. Last fall's Shaking Crane was great.

[kwaichang]

I hope to be able to make it as well. I am wanting to learn all 8 of the immortals at some point. KC:)

[shen ku]

he said he will be teaching out 2 this fall

[kwaichang]

Then all I will lack is the Flexible Immortal Yeah.

[Darthlawyer]

Then all I will lack is the Flexible Immortal Yeah.

Which ones do you have? And is "crazy mad drunk" one of the 8 immortals? I thought maybe it was just a separate drunk... which immortal is the crazy mad one?

[Darthlawyer]

I was just thinking today: why do so many people have a problem with the Japanese uniforms for a Kung Fu school, but they can easily accept "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu"?

[Old Noob]

I was just thinking today: why do so many people have a problem with the Japanese uniforms for a Kung Fu school, but they can easily accept "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu"?

Because almosty everyone will admit that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was was born from Judo, which is where the gi and colored belt system originated. Consequently, you have a successor system borrowing a custom from its forebear. Brazilian jiu jitsu has never claimed that their gis and belt colorings exist for any other reason.

[Syn7]

I was just thinking today: why do so many people have a problem with the Japanese uniforms for a Kung Fu school, but they can easily accept "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu"?

because tcma guys have that insecurity where they need to try to be as "authentic" as possible to bring them credibility to other tcma schools... its like they have a ****ing contest over who can possess the most worthless trappings and hold them in reverance... like having an alter when you dont even really know what its all about...


i would only wear a Gi if i was doing some jacket tossing... and i never wear the silk jammies... straight up sports gear for this cat... loose pants and a tshirt for the most part... and no feyues, i gotta sic pair of pumas that feel like extensions of my feet... just putting them on makes me wanna get all acrobatic...

[goju]

I was just thinking today: why do so many people have a problem with the Japanese uniforms for a Kung Fu school, but they can easily accept "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu"?

because brazillian jiu jitsu history isnt shady and can be easily explained?

[sha0lin1]

I was just thinking today: why do so many people have a problem with the Japanese uniforms for a Kung Fu school, but they can easily accept "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu"?

The real reason is due to the Japanese occupation of China before the 2nd world war. There were a lot of attrocities commited against the Chinese by the Japanese. Many Chinese would consider the wearing of a gi when doing a Chinese art a huge insult.

[JamesC]

Because you can't use the Flying Consumate Skill unless you're wearing silk.

Duh. :rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

Uniforms, Ha not again , heck I wear 100% cotton chef pant baggies when I work out, man I can whup up a bad ass Kung Pao Gi. But I still train , so who cares. KC:)

[kwaichang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFJkhV5l5JU KC:cool:

[kungfujunky]

Chung Kuo Lao and Han Shou Chi.

The 2 new drunkens being taught

[Darthlawyer]

Has anyone noticed that the guy who started this monster thread only had the one post? Poor Kung Fu Fan, we barely knew ye.

[Radhnoti]

Did anyone ever disprove my late night theory about Shaolin-do having a circus background? Hope JP and everyone from SD I met are doing well.
Here's that old idea (took me all day to dig it out of the archives):
think Su Kong Tai Jin was in a circus. I think he studied at "the" Southern Shaolin Temple and when the temple was destroyed he went out into the world and made his way as best he could. Therefore, the photos were setups put together by the circus to publicize. I think Su Kong offered more than "just" wolf-boy appeal, I think he performed iron body feats (thus the pic of a bear biting his arm) and perhaps other "unbelievable" feats made possible by his previous training. I also think that GM Ie travelled with the same circus. Learning from Su Kong as they travelled. I have read that accompanying the letter promoting GM Sin to 10th GM Ie writes, "In the early time, I traveled everywhere in China to learn Martial arts, and had been up to North Korea. It has been 50 years since I moved down to south. I had been through a lot of tough times. But when I looked it back, I surely had a lot of unforgettable memory." Hmmm...travelling everywhere even to northern korea, learning martial arts. What better way to travel than in a circus...perhaps surrounded by folks of like mind?
Circus-type "masters" pop up several times in the SD literature.
One, in the SDA manual, speaks of "the strongest man in China" who GM Sin maintains was his hero and travelled with a circus. He died in London, exchanging blows with his English equivilent. The story stresses how he would tense before each blow, like our Three Unit Tension form...laughing at the fellow's attempts, until the Englishman caught him unaware. Next it points out how he struck and withdrew quickly, as we are supposed to do in our short forms. This was a man trained...at LEAST partially...in a style similar to our own.
Next was the story of GM Sin visiting Bali. GM Ie told him to visit an "old colleague" Ji Shou Hu. Here's a portion of that story:
"Upon arriving in Bali, Grandmaster Sin was happy to find that Ji Shou Hu was giving a public demonstration. It is well known that the chain whip is one of the most difficult Shaolin weapons to master. Ji Shou Hu's demonstration he went a step further than most. He preformed the chain whip swings while riding a bicycle. The crowd was amazed as he showed his complete mastery of the chain whip. This included "hopping" the bike up and spinning the whip underneath. For the finale he approached seven women holding Chinese coins between their thumb and forefinger. Remember that Chinese coins (yuan) have a whole in the center. Ji Shou Hu began snapping the whip toward the women with incredible speed. When he finally stopped, he held the whip up for the audience to see seven coins pierced and stuck on the pointed tip of his chain whip. At this point the audience went wild. The crowd then quieted as Ji Shou Hu raised the whip handle and extended his Ch'i power into the weapon. The Whip began to straighten out horizontally, one link at a time until finally the entire chain whip stood straight out from his hand. At his command the whip fell limp again at his side."
Is it hard to imagine such an act being worked up in a circus by a person who'd already mastered chainwhip in kung-fu training? Later in the story it is revealed that Ji Shou Hu was also a Master of our short forms.
Other masters of the school, alongside GM Ie, that I've heard mentioned include: Qui Gwong, Chi Gong, and Gi Shiao Fu. Note the similarity of the name Gi Shiao Fu to Ji Shou Hu...sorry, just noticed that myself. Maybe the Master eventually moved to teach at GM Ie's school. In any case, these small facts (perhaps a few others) have led me to my pet theory.
It's possible that this portion of SD's history isn't mentioned because some folks might feel it lacks a certain dignity. Su Kong and GM Ie living in a cave would certainly be more in keeping with the legends of old and their way of doing things...but I love this theory. Hope no one is insulted, and that at least someone finds this interesting.

[shen ku]

yes that is interesting..... but hey we all have to eat some how, and that would be a good way, use your skills, i'd even say it would be better then work as a bodyguard? you know with the little new idea that had came around.. you know the one that goes BANG BANG....??

[kwaichang]

I just Love this stuff, You guys are wild?:)

[Judge Pen]

Radhnoti,

Great to hear from you. I always found your theory to be interesting and I've heard all of the stories you reference from my teachers as well (except for the letter). And, as you know the letter references gifting Sin The' Master Ie's jade pipe which I've been told he carries with him in his fanny pack. Don't know if your theory is correct, but it's interesting to think about.

Fact is I've given up worrying about the "true" origins of SD. I have a hip injury that prevents me from doing a lot of what I used to do, so my training is limited. I devoted 20 years of training to SD and do not regret that time. I know the style is effective even if I think it is easy to lose focus and just gobble up the next form wihout understanding the ones you already know fully. Shaolin-do is as real as you make it. You get out of it what effort you put in.

[Radhnoti]

Sorry to hear about the hip injury JP. As I recall, you were dealing with/recovering from a hip (or was it knee?) surgery about the time we moved out of shaolin-do.

Probably good to move beyond unanswerable questions, I've not thought about it in a long while. A good friend of mine just got his 1st brown in shaolin-do the other day (lives up north) and I got curious about whether anything new had come up. Started looking at this huge thread and realized my old pet theory was in ANOTHER massive thread that I almost couldn't access.

I'm glad for my time in shaolin-do, honestly it was the only opportunity to learn any sort of Chinese (or Indonesian) martial art in this area. My teacher was/is the best (in my opinion), and I liked some of the material very much. Certainly no regrets for my 5 or so years studying SD in regards to the material or most of the great people I met.

Anyway, hope all is well with you and your family.

[shen ku]

just curious... has anyone use the MA skills in their job or any other task to earn a living?

[kwaichang]

I have used my skills at work,

[Dragonzbane76]

This has to be the longest thread ever in the existance of threads...:p

[bodhi warrior]

just curious... has anyone use the MA skills in their job or any other task to earn a living?

I use my skills at work everyday. Not in a self defense manner of speaking. But in abilities that I developed through my training. I have a very physical, repetitive job that requires a high level of hand dexterity and speed. My ability to learn a new process has been made easy because it is very similar to learning a new form. And I continuosly use whole body movement and relaxation to move with speed and fluidity. And I've never been injured at work, which is a rarity.

[Brule]

Forgive me for not reading the 880 pages, but Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kwaichang]

HAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, yes.:):confused:

[Judge Pen]

just curious... has anyone use the MA skills in their job or any other task to earn a living?

I fended off a drunk high school wrestler once in college when I was an RA. :D In my job there is always a treat that the emotions will get so high that I can be assaulted, but it's never risen above threats so far.

Rhad, it was my knee. I had torn my ACL and MCL in 2004. I have fully recovered from that. My hip is degenerative from years of use. Probably my own fault for not stretching enough.

[kwaichang]

Hey Judge I guess U wont be able to do any more Snake forms at home now? LOL KC;)

[shen ku]

I asked about using your skills because i am always using mine in one way or another.. but i find its not often that i use actual fighting skills?? I always find it interesting that most people don't talk about the "other" benefits of training or should i say quality training , depending on what that means to you.lol..

Most people if they just watch what they do and where they go hardly ever need to fight... i have had to use some skills on the job but i work in the psych field so you just never know how some people will react... but?? as for my daily life any time i have ever had to do anything it was just a little something when someone was just curious about training ,, and most of the time the became some form of a student after wards

[Old Man]

Hmmm. I have fotos of chi shao fu.

[shen ku]

what are you talking about?

[bodhi warrior]

He was one of the masters at the Indonesian school sin and hiang trained at. There are those that know his history better than I could explain.

[Drake]

I know nothing about shaolin, but who WOULDN'T want to be part of this massive thread? :D

[shen ku]

Well post the pics then, why just talk about having them. Others would love to see them i am sure

[Old Man]

He was one of the masters at the Indonesian school sin and hiang trained at. There are those that know his history better than I could explain.

what is chi hsiao fu history? hmmm

[kungfujunky]

Chi Hsiao Foo / Je Siau Fu was a respectful Shandong kungfu teacher who was very prominent warrior in Indonesia. Some of his student are very well known in Jakarta or Bandung.
Chi Hsio Foo only accepted a little number of student who really taught directly by him. If GM Sin The was his student, i think the northern tang lang system was from him. I have heard that 10 teachers were the teacher of their school.

Best Regards,

Achien (Indonesia)

[kungfujunky]

can anyone translate this?

http://www.kaskus.us/showthread.php?t=1009128&page=7

[shen ku]

and once again it is a ghost town

[One student]

Some things I have come across lately that may be of interest to SD likers and non-likers:

1. In at least one of Bruce Frantzis' ("Energy Arts") books on Chi Kung/Qui Gong training, which he claimed to have learned after years of resident study in China, he describes chi kung and meditation methods, and notes (not verbatim quoting), the techniques particular to Shaolin practitioners in breathing meditation to result in "vibration" or involuntary shaking of the body. Any one who's taken GMS' or MH's or SD's breathing meditation classes will find that very familiar.

2. In the Karate Kid remake (in China, with Jackie Chan), didn't the uniforms worn in the kung fu schools look a lot like gi's?

3. In a book by Wong Kiew Kit, who refers to his 30 years of practice and teaching of Shaolin, and being 4th generation successor of monk of Shaolin Monastery and Grandmaster of Shaolin Wahnam Kung Fu Institute, and author of "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu," etc., lists as a "useful" resource, Master Leong Swee Lun, who's school of Bagua, Shaolin, and Taijquan in Malaysia, is called "Hapkung-Do" (which I've also seen spelled "Hapkune-Do").

Not claiming to know what any of that means, but thought it was interesting. I'm just sayin' . . . .

[Darthlawyer]

Wong Kiew Kit also claims to cure people's cancer by using his chi from a thousand miles away.

[wenshu]

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.
Bertrand Russell.

[JamesC]

"Wong Kiew Kit also claims to cure people's cancer by using his chi from a thousand miles away."

Can you present evidence proving that he can't?

Great argument you've got there. You should Google "Burden of Proof" sometime.

[OldandUsed]

LOL! I like it. Can't wait to see the reaction.

[pazman]

Sin Kwang The, Hiang Kwang The and Wong Kiew Kit have the "REAL SHAOLIN"! Everything else is a weakened verson as it has evolved in mainland China.
Most on this forum wouldn't know or be able to accept the truth if it walked up and bit you right on your huckleberry.

You forgot about Doo Wai and USSD.

[pazman]

I didn't forget…I was talking about the Shaolin Real Deal.

Yeah, it was a joke because I assumed you were joking, too.;)

[David Jamieson]

I think this thread could use some gaying up.

so...

http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/composition/10457433/view/1/type/png/width/178/height/178/yellow-i-love-karate-men-s-tees_design.png


and

http://www.goumakarate.com/yoshukaikarate/images/Love%20you%20man_jpg.jpg


and of course

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5N_bAjClIO4/TbGDngaPweI/AAAAAAAAG1s/k7KVyov58Mw/s1600/shang_chi_beefcake.jpg

[David Jamieson]

I give up! I have tried a couple of times to re-stoke the fire here but I feel like I'm trying to burn wet wood. Reading this thread (yeah I actually read every post) has been great fun and often even informative…but I think both sides of the argument are resigned to let it die. So Goodbye Old Friend!:(

You give up?
with only 13 tries?

You are NOT worthy.
Leave your 6 red stripe yellow sash on the table by the door as you LEAVE!!!


:p

[shen ku]

i love how a lot of the times we all talk bad about this or that art, really run it down, and then we find a lot of times people who have material from each others arts.. i love it

[Shaolin Wookie]

I asked about using your skills because i am always using mine in one way or another.. but i find its not often that i use actual fighting skills?? I always find it interesting that most people don't talk about the "other" benefits of training or should i say quality training , depending on what that means to you.lol..

Most people if they just watch what they do and where they go hardly ever need to fight... i have had to use some skills on the job but i work in the psych field so you just never know how some people will react... but?? as for my daily life any time i have ever had to do anything it was just a little something when someone was just curious about training ,, and most of the time the became some form of a student after wards

Agreed. Tai Chi, Pakua, and just plain ol' exercise are what I'm after these days. They keep my head on straight. At times I'm only into fighting techniques, and at others I just want to keep in shape and work out. MA has that flexibility.

Also, I've always had an appreciation for Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu (I'm not big on Buddhist Philosophy [It's too puritanical]). Anyways, I find that the anarchist strain of thought in Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu fits my own political-economic viewpoint pretty well--"Laissez Faire, Laissez Passer." I find that the shallow Chuck Norris mentality of self-control ("I'll let that one pass because I'd kill you if I actually punched you") is pretty lame. Self-control is knowing when to let something stupid fly by, and not letting it fly by if it's a matter of principle. Same goes for MA. If someone throws out a ridiculous application or private-MA-fantasy-"move," it's better just to politely point out some of the ridiculous assumptions that this would-be Chuck Norris has made, and then let it go at that.

Not that I'm looking for justification of ideas through martial arts or anything. It's just a nice blend of mental exercises and physical exercises. Western exercise routines are pure body. You get results, you build a strong base, and you often develop a kind of work ethic to keep up with your routine, but you don't really get mental benefits from that other than egoism. Doing Tai Chi every day really helps you shrug off little things and avoid bickering. I remember that when I used to work out in gyms during college, I was building up a strong base, but I had no idea what I was going to do with it. LOL.

Seems like 90% of the health crap that people nitpick over in gyms is codeword for: "I need to stay sexy so I can get laid." After a while, you realize that "fit" only means "sexy." Many "fit" people are not model-sexy. (Or am I just justifying my unsexiness? LOL.....)

Ask a gym nut why he stays in shape, and he'll tell you that it's because he needs to stay in shape because it's healthy, etc. It's certainly not wrong, but it's begging the question.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Forgive me for not reading the 880 pages, but Is Shaolin-Do for real?

What is real shaolin?

Is it

1) The gymnastics taught by Communist-Party-appointed monks who practice whatever it is that they do (and it is impressive, even if it isn't Shaolin, and even if it is Communist-appointed)?

2) The "shaolin-ness" of the stuff "underneath" the gymnastics taught at the temple today?

3) Anything that's not Shaolin Do?

4) One of the billion branches of Shaolin taught by whoever-and-his-grandfather-wannabe-shaolin-and-therefore-fudged-his-family-tree-sometime-in-the-indiscriminate-past? (And SD has no monopoly on this one...LOL...)

5) What you see in the movies?

6) The most devastating MA in existence?


The "real" Shaolin is a little like God, but I don't belive in God. Everybody claims to have God, but nobody else has a God quite like their own "original" God---the REAL GOD. Maybe a couple of lineages here and there have bits and pieces of "God" in their Shaolin, or maybe even whole sequences of "God" moves. These "God" moves are the most devastating moves in existence. Even worse: these "God" moves can create even more devastating moves from the non-fabrics of perpetual nonexistence if you just believe in their massively destructive power. Shaolin can create, and Shaolin can destroy. There is only one caveat, and I quote Shaolin 3:16--"Thou shalt have no other Gods before Shaolin. Whoseover believeth in Shaolin shall not perish, but have bragging rights over the ORIGINAL SHAOLIN LINEAGE everlasting."

Which is the "original" lineage?

I don't know. Some people think that if you can just find a couple of records somewhere that some nincompoop in the past wrote down, taking dictation from his Master/Chief/Abbot/Pope/King/Emperor/President (surely there is a Shaolin President somewhere, and if there isn't, I'm running for it next year), then de facto we have proof of it.

Maybe it's because I do research for a living and teach Logic, Grammar, and critical thinking to college students that I just don't have much respect for the theological strain in Shaolin "God"-olatry. It's like Bible-thumping.

Same big egos. Same stories. Same miracles. Same cult of saints (unless you're a Protestant, in which case you have the cult of historicist interpretation of scripture).

[Shaolin Wookie]

There isn't a big divide between the two, and I think they make fine comparisons because lineages are taken on faith--whatever anyone might say otherwise.

Genealogies function on the same premise. I've traced my family tree back through the Plantagenets to the mythical founder of Rome, Troy, etc., and even back to Adam (following the old royalist geneaologies used to legitimate the conquests of William the Conqueror and every jacknut tyrant of the past). You can justify anything with a flick of the pen. Hell, there are two different geneaologies between two gospels for Christ--one supposedly through Mary, and the other through Joseph (and I'm sure you can see the irony in the latter).;) This doesn't stop people from belieiving in Christ's divinity, or even in the consistency of hte Gospels, or the contradictory geneaologies, etc. People will usually justify what they believe in the present by "interpreting" what was written in the past in a way that will justify what they believe in the present.

If we must believe in the historical foundations of monuments, handwritten records, etc., then SD was recognized as "officially" Shaolin when it erected its stone tablet outside of the temple. Call it what you will--if the world were hit by a nuclear holocaust (or a Cultural Revolution), wiping out 90% of humankind, in addition to many written historical records, future generations would presume that Sin Kwang The' was teh covenant bearer of the REAL Shaolin.

Even natural scientists do this with regularity. It's human nature. Read "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" by Thomas Kuhn. Or, look at the "liberal agenda" for global warming (not to say that global warming isn't happening, just that the anthropogenic CO2"interpretation" is doomsday prophecying on par with any Biblical shenanigan). Plus, the fact that the Global Warming Doomsday caught on with socialists begging for the destruction of freedom...or capitalism...ought to have set off warning alarms for any clear-headed individual.

As for Shaolin-Do, there are a couple of things to believe. Thomas Sowell, the famous economist, often writes about "middleman" minorities like the Jews or the Chinese in southeast Asia. These "middleman" minorities run in tight family circles, guarding their business secrets, promoting impeccable work ethics through education, work, and business. And in turn, they get discriminated against at every turn by other majorities, or even other minorities. I have no doubt that there was something like this in Indonesia, based on research I did in scholarly journals several years ago--it was a famous hotspot of anti-Chinese intervention (especially in "licensing" and taxation). The Chinese in Southeast Asia kept to themselves, like Jews in diaspora, and were persecuted for that. No doubt the SD founders were in cultural and political isolation and kept things secretive.

As for the "wookie" bit, or Ie Chang Ming's "Shaolin resume"--those are stories and articles of faith. You either believe them or you don't. I enjoy them as stories, but nothing more. They may have kernels of truth, but I don't trouble myself with them. Hell, my grandmother once told me that she rode a horse to France (from Detroit). I enjoyed the story, but I didn't believe it.

I personally think that most CMA's are living out Star Wars fantasies when in comes to "the really real REALIST SHAOLIN" in history. SD just provided the Wookie.

As for the "Gi" controversy, I've never trained in one inside SD. I have trained in one in both BJJ and Judo. The "Gi" is superior for any hand to hand combat. It provides more padding for body shots, it doesn't rip and tear when you get into grappling, and it holds out better in the long run. I've had to get my SD shirt, which is Chinese-style, retailored 3 times for seam tears in a single year span. It's a pain in the ass, and I could only wish that we trained in Gi's down here.

Silk pajamas are for forms and light training. Gi's are for throwing, sweeping, grappling, wrestling, and even punching and kicking.


Now, all of that aside (which is just History, fashion, or Street-Cred), what, then, is REAL Shaolin?

Real Shaolin is "God."

God has many children.
God has infinite creative powers.
God justifies all fake Shaolin lineages, even though all fake Shaolin lineages are the only things justifying God.
God is almighty.
God either wears a saffron robe or a Japanese Gi.
God is a communist-appointed Lord of the Dance.

Take your pick. All of the Shaolin-ness debates have one thing in common--the 1,000 year-old mystique. But there is no 1,000 year-old "move." There's the "move" I did three seconds ago, and then there's the "1,000 year-old mystique."

[Shaolin Wookie]

The best advice to give to any MA practitioner is as follows:

Find the best teacher that you can find. Find one who challenges your views, has an open mind, and is excellent at his craft. "Styles" don't matter in these considerations. Find a school that embodies these traits, and which treats its students with respect. Also, there is no objective "value" in a teacher. It's a subjective valuation in your own mind, based on your own needs as a student.

A good teacher at a bad school is not enought to offset the "bad school" bit, just as a "good school" with likeable classmates and hardworking assistants is not enough to offset a bad teacher. I once had a great BJJ teacher with extensive MMA experience, but he was lazy as a teacher, ran a shoddy school, and occasionally didn't show up for instruction. Great practitioner + Bad teacher + Bad business ethic = Shoddy instruction.

I found both a good teacher and a good school with my Shaolin-Tao/Do teacher, but I wouldn't have stuck around with some other teachers. I certainly didn't stick with many non-SD teachers because of the schools themselves, the mentalities of their assistants, or the egos of the teachers. My current teacher is, hands-down, the best that I've found for my mindset, goals, standards, etc.

Nobody has a monopoly on quality MA. And a golden lineage cannot hide "Fools Gold" MA techniques.

Studying MA isn't like parroting what your teachers say. Half of the time, it's questioning what they say, why they say it, and judging whether it has any validity. Sometimes it has no validity, and sometimes it lacks validity for three years--and then WHAM, it suddenly has all the validity in the world.

[shen ku]

well...... someone had some free time????

[OldandUsed]

SW,

I truly enjoyed that, really.

Frank

[Old Noob]

SW,

I truly enjoyed that, really.

Frank

Ditto! Well said.

[Royal Dragon]

Since it has been several years since I have made a contribution to this thread, I give you this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JojLZ-OQJOs&feature=fvst

[One student]

Anyone seen this show (live play, currently playing in Sevierville, TN)?

[sha0lin1]

Yes, I have been there twice with my Master. The Coach of the Team is one of my Masters gongfu brothers. It is an awesome show, but the first version was better.

[Royal Dragon]

http://www.youtube.com/user/mr1sifu#p/u/8/NbN0dKp4Cfo

Something about that reminds me of Chung Moo Quan

[One student]

Yes, I have been there twice with my Master. The Coach of the Team is one of my Masters gongfu brothers. It is an awesome show, but the first version was better.

I did go to see the show in Sevierville, Tenn. I would recommend it for martial arts enthusiasts. The martial arts performances were excellent. Maybe one of the best demo's of the three-section staff and whip chains (single and double) I have seen (definitely best I've ever seen live). And a demo of a skill I have never seen before that was amazing (that I am not describing only to avoid being a spoiler).

I took my 17 year old daughter with me, who has shown no interest in martial arts but an interest in theater (she has done high school plays including musicals), and she said she really enjoyed it and was emotional at some points. Hopefully, she wasn't just humoring me.

I have a thought that one of the lead "monks" is the same one that has appeared on Stan Lee's "Superhumans," showing the "one inch punch," and the one who was on Fight Science showing the spear-bending on the throat stunt. I could be wrong.

[solo1]

Wookie, thank you very much.

[Old Man]

i have hear rumour that sin the' have the ancient scroll from dong hai chuan where he write he learn the pa kua from a hermit in the mountain. that same hermit being the one you call su kong tai djin. what do you say to this?

[Northwind]

i have hear rumour that sin the' have the ancient scroll from dong hai chuan where he write he learn the pa kua from a hermit in the mountain. that same hermit being the one you call su kong tai djin. what do you say to this?
Oh boy...lol

[GeneChing]

He was discussed previously on this thread.

Ex-Falcon Tackles Martial Arts (http://northeastcobb.patch.com/articles/chinese-shaolin-center)
Since 1993, the Chinese Shaolin Center has offered kung fu and tai chi for beginners and experts alike in Northeast Cobb.

http://o3.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/PATCH/resize/600x450/http://hss-prod.hss.aol.com/hss/storage/patch/df824840edc39ed2c7f9c34867092d10

The Chinese Shaolin Center is owned and operated by sixth-degree Master Michael Reid, the ranking student of the Atlanta-area Chinese Shaolin Centers.
Master Michael Reid, a former Atlanta Falcon, runs the Chinese Shaolin Center in Northeast Cobb.

Master Michael Reid, a sixth-degree Shaolin master and former linebacker for the Atlanta Falcons, is living his passion of owning a Shaolin studio and training students to develop themselves through the study of traditional martial arts at the Chinese Shaolin Center. Reid also serves as head of operations for all Chinese Shaolin Center schools and clubs in Georgia.

Q. What's the hardest thing about being a small-business owner in Northeast Cobb?

A. Unlike a grocery store or gas station, I run a business that's based on discretionary income. The economy is not booming, so you have to do a very good job and attract new clients. Nineteen years ago, it was all teaching and training. Now you've got to worry about making enough money to keep your door open.

Q. What's the best thing about your job?

A. I do something I enjoy every day. I've been studying martial arts since 1988 when I joined the Atlanta Falcons. In college I was playing football, studying for a computer science degree and enjoying fraternity life, so between all that there was not enough time to study martial arts.

Q. What is the best thing about Northeast Cobb?

A. I feel safe here; there's a sense of community. This is much bigger than Albany, Ga., where I'm from, and it has metropolitan aspects, but it still feels like being in Georgia. It's nice that you don't have to go downtown for everything.

Q. Why did you choose to open your business in Northeast Cobb?

A. I'm the first student of my instructor to open a school. His school was in Norcross. Back there we looked at marketing strategies, and Cobb made the most sense to me. Nineteen years ago there were definitely growth opportunities.

Q. Why did you pick this particular kind of business?

A. When I left the NFL, I had the choice to go the corporate route. I could've gone to IBM since I had worked for them a few times. I could've been an NFL coach. I would have had to move my family everywhere in order to move up the ranks.

My other dream as a child was to be a Shaolin master. So, this way, I can still be an athlete, a teacher and a sort of coach.

Q. What are some of the services you offer that people don't know about?

A. I don't think a lot of people really understand what we do. The average person doesn't understand kung fu or tai chi.

I do not run a fighter or a sports school. I am a teacher of an art that helps students develop positively over a long period of time. It's hard to sell the fact that we are about the development of the person because of the common image of martial arts. We help students to be healthier, think better, manage stress and develop themselves.

Q. What advice can you offer to someone thinking about starting a small business?

A. First, do some research and make sure you are committed. I have no business background, so I made a ton of mistakes, but I was committed, so I could learn and grow.

Second, know exactly what you want; otherwise, your passion will consume you, and you will become frustrated.

Third, do you want a personal job, or do you want a business? Because one of them only works when you are there.

Q. Is there anything else you would like our readers to know?

A. We still live in a country where you can achieve great things if you believe in yourself and never take no for an answer.

On the other hand, you must do the research to know what it takes to achieve your dreams. As people, we should aspire to do things that bring us happiness. Why am I here, 19 years later, with no business background? There was a passionate dream I had, and I believed what we were doing was important. And it was important.

Finally, mentorship is important to help you build up your plan.

Northeast Cobb's Chinese Shaolin Center is at 2727 Canton Rd., Suite 500. It is on the corner of Piedmont and Canton roads in the Piedmont Walk Shopping Center. For more information, call 770-422-9250, or email csc.marietta@shaolincenter.com. Classes are offered on a daily basis except Friday.

[shen ku]

well i would guess everyone has been training really heard in real kung fu and not key board kung fu...lol

[shen ku]

And back to the top of the page it goes again.... any one have any info on the two new drunkens that will be showed this month? any youtube videos?

[shen ku]

lol.. i enjoy what i do and that is all that realy matters to me, been doing it over 25 years and teaching it for over 18... but mostly i like the orange cool aid.......lol

[tattooedmonk]

Does this look somewhat familiar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzWvHgTpso0&feature=related

[shen ku]

hmm looks like something i may have seen before?? just maybe

[bodhi warrior]

Looks like the spear fight techniques form. So how did this Jerry cook guy get it?

[OldandUsed]

When you checked out the spear video, did you notice the other videos he has on YouTube? Weak!

[tattooedmonk]

Was anyone here told the history and backround on this form? I was taught that GMT had to create this for for rank advancement in the black belt levels...Now I see that it is a standard wushu form... See my other post "attention anyone and everyone"...:eek:

[bodhi warrior]

I watched the chinese video on the other thread and must admit while not identical to how we do it, it is very similar. And I mean very similar. Makes you wonder though.....this form has been taught since the 70's, I think, how would sin have gotten it if he copied it? It was before dvd's and vhs. I guess he could have gotten it from a manuscript or something. Or maybe he was taught it and this validates the original material we have been taught.

[OldandUsed]

Bodhi--yes, I watched some of those, too. very interesting.

When I said "weak", I was referring to Mr. Cook and his execution of technique. Had not heard of him before and I would be curious to find the source of his material.

I had been aware of the similarities of many different form in SD and the other arts. I never really got into the whole who came first, chicken or egg, thing. I enjoyed my SD, still maintain the material and have cross-trained in some other arts and managed to incorporate/integrate many of the techniques. I guess my military background has allowed me to accept what works for me, regardless of source, and discard what does not. I have no problem with a hybrid form or system if it works for me. If someone wants to dispute a system or style, that is their thing, not mine. Heck, if you did not allow that, this whole thread would not exist. Have a great day!

[tattooedmonk]

Shaolin Do has its first 9th degree black belt..... is this also grand master or senior elder master or ????:confused:

[Judge Pen]

Wow, that is a very bad representation of our spear fighting technique form. Who is this Jerry Cook fellow?

[sean_stonehart]

I watched the chinese video on the other thread and must admit while not identical to how we do it, it is very similar. And I mean very similar. Makes you wonder though.....this form has been taught since the 70's, I think, how would sin have gotten it if he copied it? It was before dvd's and vhs. I guess he could have gotten it from a manuscript or something. Or maybe he was taught it and this validates the original material we have been taught.

The Chinese write manuals on everything. Go to any Chinatown & you can find books on all sorts of MAs. Like a great many things due to print, transitions & intentions are lost. Also things are changed intentionally to point certain things out.

[solo1]

Wow, that is a very bad representation of our spear fighting technique form. Who is this Jerry Cook fellow?

he is a 4th degree, teaches in Hamilton Ohio.

[OldandUsed]

Is he with the SD club up there? Blue Ash?

[shen ku]

no not with SD

http://9dragonskungfu.com/master_jerry_cook.html

[LaterthanNever]

For the love of all that is good and holy!!

Gene(or any moderator for that matter). PLEASE lock this thread!

Shao-lin Do may exist in terms of..yeah..there are schools you can visit that claim to teach the art of the "Grandmaster" of the Shaolin temple(of which there is NONE--period!!!).....

BUT..

It is NOT an official style of Shaolin kung fu!!


Fight the phonies,
LTN

[OldandUsed]

LTN-thanks for your invaluable insight and contribution to this thread. Just for the fun of it, try, really try, to imagine that somewhere there is someone that disagrees with you. Yes, I know, hard to do, but try. Then, when you have just about wrapped your mind around the fact that you are not the center of the cosmos and that there is a remote possibility that you may have missed something or had misinterpretted something....look at this thread and try to understand that some folks just do not care what other people believe and prefer to do their own thing. Whether that is a mode of dress, speech or practicing a variation on a martial art, they just do something different than you. And regardless of what label is placed upon that, it is not wrong, but just different from what you choose to do or see. Deal with it and have a nice day.

[solo1]

Is he with the SD club up there? Blue Ash?

the master cook I am referring to is in hamilton . I dont know what affiliation he may have with the blue ash school.


the jerry cook referred to here http://9dragonskungfu.com/master_jerry_cook.html
is a totally differant guy. I made the leap that since we are in the Shaolin-do forum that Master Cook in Ohio was the teacher you guys were talking about.

[OldandUsed]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[themeecer]

For the love of all that is good and holy!!

Gene(or any moderator for that matter). PLEASE lock this thread!

Shao-lin Do may exist in terms of..yeah..there are schools you can visit that claim to teach the art of the "Grandmaster" of the Shaolin temple(of which there is NONE--period!!!).....

BUT..

It is NOT an official style of Shaolin kung fu!!


Fight the phonies,
LTN
Grad student with three years of MA training under your belt eh? Many of us probably have sweat on our belts/sashes older than you. Only three years of training and you are already in here arguing lineage? :rolleyes:

If you don't like the thread, don't read it.

[Darthlawyer]

For the love of all that is good and holy!!

Gene(or any moderator for that matter). PLEASE lock this thread!

Shao-lin Do may exist in terms of..yeah..there are schools you can visit that claim to teach the art of the "Grandmaster" of the Shaolin temple(of which there is NONE--period!!!).....

BUT..

It is NOT an official style of Shaolin kung fu!!


Fight the phonies,
LTN

I wonder if this guy can tell the difference between traditional Shaolin and the Wu-Shu they teach at the current "Shaolin" (c)(tm) school...

[One student]

the master cook I am referring to is in hamilton . I dont know what affiliation he may have with the blue ash school.


the jerry cook referred to here http://9dragonskungfu.com/master_jerry_cook.html
is a totally differant guy. I made the leap that since we are in the Shaolin-do forum that Master Cook in Ohio was the teacher you guys were talking about.

Dennis Cook and Jerome Cook, brothers, teach SD in Hamilton, Ohio. I believe it is one of their students who runs the Blue Ash, Ohio, SD school.

NOT the "Jerry Cook" demonstrating the spear form.

[LaterthanNever]

"Just for the fun of it, try, really try, to imagine that somewhere there is someone that disagrees with you. Yes, I know, hard to do, but try"

You are free to believe what you wish. You are also free to believe about a style which there is no official confirmation by the Shaolin temple that there was ever a "grandmaster" of Shaolin..nor a record of Su Kong Dai Djin(or whatever his name is) training in the walls of the temple(much less being promoted to Grandmaster!)

Themeecer,

Need to update my profile. Grad school GRADUATE. 4 years of Hung Ga training. 1 year of Wing Chun, 1 year of Northern Eagle Claw kung fu, 3 years of Preying mantis kung fu training.

Satisfied? I would face a Shao-lin Do guy any day of the week.

And your qualifications please? Oops..I forgot. You trained as a 12 generation disciple of Su Kong..or is is Sin Kwang The right?

How the Karate Gi in your kung fu training holding up? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Old Noob]

the master cook I am referring to is in hamilton . I dont know what affiliation he may have with the blue ash school.


the jerry cook referred to here http://9dragonskungfu.com/master_jerry_cook.html
is a totally differant guy. I made the leap that since we are in the Shaolin-do forum that Master Cook in Ohio was the teacher you guys were talking about.

This guy may not be the Jerry Cook in Hamilton but he is the same guy doing the form in the video. His bio has no linkage to SD. Cook's version also resembles this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vbg4fhxxOw&feature=youtu.be

Both versions are similar to ours.

[LaterthanNever]

Silly me,

Need to update my profile. Grad school GRADUATE. 4 years of Hung Ga training. 1 year of Wing Chun, 1 year of Northern Eagle Claw kung fu, 3 years of Preying mantis kung fu training..AND COUNTING

SD people. Please post an official statement from the Shaolin temple (the one in CHINA..not some cracker jack factory in Indonesia) Abbot recognizing Su Kong Dai Djin(which I am almost certain is not any chinese dialect) and current "Grandmaster"(which leaves a real foul taste in my mouth) Sin Kwang The as the "grandmaster" and leader of Shaolin(minus the hyphen) and then maybe..just maybe I will believe it.

Clock is ticking fellas. Remember..your acknowledged leaders of SD are the ones who made this statement..not me!

[LaterthanNever]

"Grandmaster" The does some "mantis" kung fu at the .40 second mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xcly0coJw

It's the "new" mantis form..let me guesss: "Newborn mantis nibbles on the stack of Ben Franklins"..caveat emptor fellas..caveat emptor.

And now for some REAL mantis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4zESDILtYc

[LaterthanNever]

SithLegal..er..um, I mean DarthLawyer,


"I wonder if this guy can tell the difference between traditional Shaolin and the Wu-Shu they teach at the current "Shaolin" (c)(tm) school..."

Well it's obvious that YOU can't if you are spending money and time on Shao-Lin Do.

For the record..Mantis(be it done by Sin Kwang The) is not part of the Shaolin temple origins. It was developed outside of the temple.

And now Sin Kwang The speaks about the "history of the Tiger Crane forms" on the clip I posted? Interesting. So what he teaches looks like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcANYDDOv78

[Darthlawyer]

The current Shao-lin temples were set up by the Communist government and teach wu shu. They've got as much a claim to the Shaolin lineage as a kid who got an official Shaolin Master Ring out of a crackerjack box.

Seems like you can't even make up your mind as to what type of Kung Fu you want to study. If you are interested in demonstrating you ability to fight in a sporting context, I know some people who are participating in the 2012 IKF World Classic Amateur Kickboxing world championships next summer in Orlando, Florida. I'd love to see what your training has allowed you to accomplish physically.

Frankly, I wouldn't care if it turned out that Su Kong never existed. I know the techniques I've learned hit hard and fast and often. I'd say many of the people who fight competitively here would agree with a statement that forms training really isn't even necessary. What is important is finding a group of disciplined martial artists who are willing to train constantly to improve theirselves, and are willing to work with you while you improve. If Sin Kwang The decided tomorrow that he's really just the grandmaster of interplanetary funksmanship, I'd still go to my class on Tuesday. I'd also still continue to do several rounds of heavy bag training, focus mitt training, road work, forms work, stretching, strength training and other practice I do every day. Then I'll go to work and take children away from drug addict parents (I'm that kind of Sith Lawyer). You can run your mouth about Shaolin-Do's quirks, but it doesn't change the fact that, if trained seriously, it works. One can say the same of most any batch of punches, kicks, throws, eye gouges, groin shots, and other martial techniques, but the teachers in the system I've come across have been kind, supportive people who are willing to work with people of many different goals in their training, from combat oriented individuals, to ones seeking spiritual growth.

Additionally, when you state that Mantis was developed outside of the Temple, are you referring to Southern or Northern Mantis? I know at least one mantis system was developed by a secular disciple at a shaolin temple. It was further developed by the buddhist monks in the temple, but then popularized by a Taoist priest from Wudang. Other legends indicate that it was started outside of the temple proper (at least with Northern, but that it was developed further by Abbot Fu Yu in the 13th century). I'm not by any means a scholar on mantis, but to make blanket statements about the origins of "Mantis" without recognizing the obvious differences, and sources, in Northern and Southern Mantis, would tend to make one sound ignorant of Kung Fu in general.

[One student]

"Just for the fun of it, try, really try, to imagine that somewhere there is someone that disagrees with you. Yes, I know, hard to do, but try"

You are free to believe what you wish. You are also free to believe about a style which there is no official confirmation by the Shaolin temple that there was ever a "grandmaster" of Shaolin..nor a record of Su Kong Dai Djin(or whatever his name is) training in the walls of the temple(much less being promoted to Grandmaster!)

Themeecer,

Need to update my profile. Grad school GRADUATE. 4 years of Hung Ga training. 1 year of Wing Chun, 1 year of Northern Eagle Claw kung fu, 3 years of Preying mantis kung fu training.

Satisfied? I would face a Shao-lin Do guy any day of the week.

And your qualifications please? Oops..I forgot. You trained as a 12 generation disciple of Su Kong..or is is Sin Kwang The right?

How the Karate Gi in your kung fu training holding up? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

For those who insist on criticising the uniform in SD: Please check out a small budget independent movie, "Fighter" (not the recent "The Fighter."). Its a about a traditional Muslim family in a Scandinavian country (Denmark I think, with English subtitles), and the teenage girl in the family goes against tradition and behind her father's back to take up kung fu. The school she goes to is heavy on sparring, full contact, and what I'd say is traditional Chinese forms. Run by an obviously Chinese sifu, who also according to the credits is the fight choreographer. The movie is about the girl's struggles to pursue kung fu and still honor her family and religious traditions.

The point is, the entire kung fu school wears gi's in practice and competition. The sifu wears white, students black. With sashes not belts, but gi's.

Its not just SD, and that has been pointed out on this and other threads before. Although there are some valid points and questions about SD, the uniform is just not one of them.

[shen ku]

its funny what you find.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDLxVyNvcvM

[shen ku]

why would anyone wear a gi and say the teach kung fu?? it just can't be done... i know for myself if i have on my Levi's i just can move my chi worth a darn...

[shen ku]

and look at this one..... i do not see any frogbuttons.... cannot be any type of kung fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua3jXKIycSk&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL80649EBB0F35905C

[shen ku]

oh wait could this be the true one??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnGEX_x_FGY

[shen ku]

and how can this kid do kung fu in shorts.... it must be just another fake internet vedio......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgFFivfkfgE

[LaterthanNever]

"The current Shao-lin temples were set up by the Communist government and teach wu shu. They've got as much a claim to the Shaolin lineage as a kid who got an official Shaolin Master Ring out of a crackerjack box."


History lesson 101 Darth: It's the SHAOLIN temple..there is no hyphen! Second..there is a standardized wu-shu curriculum..yes..that's true. There are also legitimate styles still practiced there: Hong Quan,etc.

"Seems like you can't even make up your mind as to what type of Kung Fu you want to study."

Ladies and gentleman, I'd like you all to be first hand witnesses to the most hypocritical pot calling the kettle black statement ever made in the history of mankind...this is from a guy who studies from a grandmaster who claims to teach..wait for it..900 styles!!!! I've studied 4! Now some basic math folks..what is less..4..or 900?? U--duuuhh! I have indeed studied more than one style. And future plans include going back to complete my training in the previous three.



"If you are interested in demonstrating you ability to fight in a sporting context, I know some people who are participating in the 2012 IKF World Classic Amateur Kickboxing world championships next summer in Orlando, Florida."

I'm not an amateur..sorry. I'm also not a kickboxer!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:




"I'd love to see what your training has allowed you to accomplish physically."

I'll bet you would!

"Frankly, I wouldn't care if it turned out that Su Kong never existed."


Which is all the more reason why it is so confusing why you jump to his defense to offer such a long and drawn out explanation.

" If Sin Kwang The decided tomorrow that he's really just the grandmaster of interplanetary funksmanship, I'd still go to my class on Tuesday."

And if he did..would you be still gullable enough to follow the guy?




" Then I'll go to work and take children away from drug addict parents (I'm that kind of Sith Lawyer). "

That's commendable.




"You can run your mouth about Shaolin-Do's quirks, but it doesn't change the fact that, if trained seriously, it works."

Quirks?? My god man!! The guy claims to be a "Grandmaster" of all Shaolin when the temple has not ever used such a title..not NOW..not EVER!! That is not a mere quirk. If bells and red flags are not going off at this claim alone..there is surely something wrong here! And neither is claiming to "know 900(and teach!!) styles"!! It is just not physically possible to learn that many styles. PERIOD!! It's not possible to learn 900 forms!

80% or more of what I witnessed when I visited a SD school would leave most people either dead or crippled in a serious street fight where the attacker was intent on killing you. The bird chirping noises in one of the forms, ataxic gait and complete lack of understanding of how to stand in a stance with proper root and power generation are just not going to help someone.



"Additionally, when you state that Mantis was developed outside of the Temple, are you referring to Southern or Northern Mantis?"

CRIMINY!! Shouldn't someone who studies under the Grandmaster of Shaolin know this?



" I'm not by any means a scholar on mantis, but to make blanket statements about the origins of "Mantis" without recognizing the obvious differences, and sources, in Northern and Southern Mantis, would tend to make one sound ignorant of Kung Fu in general."


Blanket??? I study a legitimate style of Tang Lang(mantis) kung fu(8 step mantis). Your style teaches ..it seems like one whole(?) form of mantis and then has the b-lls to say it's a whole STYLE of mantis. Remember..styles are comprised of FORMS.

Yeah..ignorance is something that Sin Kwang is sure perpetuating allright!!

[LaterthanNever]

Addendum..

"I'm not by any means a scholar on mantis,"

Forget about achieving "scholar" status...you are not even MINIMALLY knowledgeable!



" but to make blanket statements about the origins of "Mantis""

If you are implying that my style of mantis is fake or not legit..I'd be all too happy to give you a detailed history with dates, names,etc.


"without recognizing the obvious differences, and sources, in Northern and Southern Mantis, would tend to make one sound ignorant of Kung Fu in general.""


Again..I resent the implication there! I think it would behoove you to talk less, find a legit school with a credible history..sans controversy and start again from scratch. And it begs the question..there have certainly got to be other schools without such controversy and disparate and flat out false claims made in the state of Tennessee. Yet you continue to stay where you are. It's like you get off on making things more difficult for yourself!

[Judge Pen]

LTN, welcome to the discussion. It's obvious what your opinion is on SD, and it's one that has been echoed continually on this thread. I take no offense to it. I've spoken and met and sparred with people that share your opinion. What I don't get is your immediate demand to "LOCK THE THREAD." Why do you have a problem with people discussing the merits, or demerits, of a marital arts system? Free discussion is what makes this country, and these threads, great.

[LaterthanNever]

Judge Pen,


"" What I don't get is your immediate demand to "LOCK THE THREAD." "

I don't believe I used the word "demand" anywhere.


"Why do you have a problem with people discussing the merits, or demerits, of a marital arts system?"

I don't have a problem with it. I DO have an issue with radical historical revisionism which is then promoted as fact. There is no record of Su Kong training at Shaolin(either the Northern or Southern temple be it the ones which were burned to the ground by the Manchu troops..or the ones in existence today).



"Free discussion is what makes this country, and these threads, great. "

Indeed. And with free discussion comes the dissenting opinion. For the record..if..a style such as "Oom Young Do"(with it's completely false explanation of how the Ba Gua style began and numerous other innacuracies) enjoyed something like 13,000 plus responses..I'd have an issue with it too(esp. since so much of what they promote as historical fact is false) and I would just the same if "Temple Kung Fu--the Moh style" as promoted by "Grandmaster"(?) Simon Olaf also had 13,000 plus responses(for the same reason..esp. when Olaf himself supposedly lost a lawsuit in which he admitted he never had the training in which he claimed).

[XinKuzi]

Is Shaolin-Do for real?

No.

There, can we move on now?

:p

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen,


"" What I don't get is your immediate demand to "LOCK THE THREAD." "

I don't believe I used the word "demand" anywhere.


"Why do you have a problem with people discussing the merits, or demerits, of a marital arts system?"

I don't have a problem with it. I DO have an issue with radical historical revisionism which is then promoted as fact. There is no record of Su Kong training at Shaolin(either the Northern or Southern temple be it the ones which were burned to the ground by the Manchu troops..or the ones in existence today).



"Free discussion is what makes this country, and these threads, great. "

Indeed. And with free discussion comes the dissenting opinion. For the record..if..a style such as "Oom Young Do"(with it's completely false explanation of how the Ba Gua style began and numerous other innacuracies) enjoyed something like 13,000 plus responses..I'd have an issue with it too(esp. since so much of what they promote as historical fact is false) and I would just the same if "Temple Kung Fu--the Moh style" as promoted by "Grandmaster"(?) Simon Olaf also had 13,000 plus responses(for the same reason..esp. when Olaf himself supposedly lost a lawsuit in which he admitted he never had the training in which he claimed).

"For the love of all that is good and holy!!

Gene(or any moderator for that matter). PLEASE lock this thread!"

My bad, you said, in all caps, "PLEASE lock this thread." It was the "For the love of all that is good and holy" that was the demanding part in my eyes. Regardless a request to lock a thread that has led to both trivial and thoughful exchanges of people with different view points is a bit extreme in my mind. This forum in general, and this thread in particular, has led me to some life long frineds from other styles and helped me define and articulate to myself the art in which I trained for over 20 years. Granted not everyone here has displayed an open mind, but many others have and it's been a beneficial dialouge on the whole.

As far as comparing SD to CMD or OYD or whatever it is calling itself now, other than some grossly unverified histories the comparision ends there. I've read "Hearding the Moo" and SD's teachers, at least here in Tennessee, Virginia, Georgia and Kentucky where I have trained, are not anything like what I've read in that book. Some people believe the history hook, line and sinker. Some do not. In the end it doesn't matter if you are getting a great workout and learning how to defend yourself. SD unquestionably does both of those things and does it well with a good instructor.

I wish you well in your training.

[OldandUsed]

Excellent, JP.

[LaterthanNever]

"For the love of all that is good and holy" that was the demanding part in my eyes."


Well w/out intentionlly bringing theology into this..I suppose that we look at "good and holy" in a different light. Fair enough. And yep..I did ask Gene to lock the thread. But "demand" to have it locked? No sir.



"Regardless a request to lock a thread that has led to both trivial and thoughful exchanges of people with different view points is a bit extreme in my mind."

Ever consider that my request to have the thread halted is because history shows that two camps of opposing views, when put into the same..I would say "room"..but "forum" in this case will suffice..tend to dig in their heels and become even more polarized? And for the 13 pages(perhaps more?) that this as gone on for..has there been any reconciliation of opposites? Does it need to go on for another 13 pages of one side saying "Yeah..it's real" while the other side begs to differ?



"This forum in general, and this thread in particular, has led me to some life long frineds from other styles and helped me define and articulate to myself the art in which I trained for over 20 years."

Well that's always good. And if you feel that you've gotten something valuable to stay with SD for 2 decades..then Bravo!



"Granted not everyone here has displayed an open mind, but many others have and it's been a beneficial dialouge on the whole."


I cannot speak for anyone but myself. I've looked at the statements made by Sin Kwang The and those of the SD organization. And after looking at the historical timeline of Shaolin and with the dates of the diaspora of Su Kong to Indonesia..there is a disparity there. I bear no ill will towards Su Kong, but that doesn't mean that I can't find his claims untenable now does it?

"As far as comparing SD to CMD or OYD or whatever it is calling itself now, other than some grossly unverified histories the comparision ends there."

Do I detect that you are saying that OYD is "grossly unverified" and yet SD is not?


"Some do not. In the end it doesn't matter if you are getting a great workout and learning how to defend yourself."

Brothers and sisters..can I get an AMEN?! However, that still does not mean I need to buy the claims of Sin Kwang The.


"I wish you well in your training. "

Likewise

[One student]

"For the love of all that is good and holy" that was the demanding part in my eyes."


Well w/out intentionlly bringing theology into this..I suppose that we look at "good and holy" in a different light. Fair enough. And yep..I did ask Gene to lock the thread. But "demand" to have it locked? No sir.



"Regardless a request to lock a thread that has led to both trivial and thoughful exchanges of people with different view points is a bit extreme in my mind."

Ever consider that my request to have the thread halted is because history shows that two camps of opposing views, when put into the same..I would say "room"..but "forum" in this case will suffice..tend to dig in their heels and become even more polarized? And for the 13 pages(perhaps more?) that this as gone on for..has there been any reconciliation of opposites? Does it need to go on for another 13 pages of one side saying "Yeah..it's real" while the other side begs to differ?



"This forum in general, and this thread in particular, has led me to some life long frineds from other styles and helped me define and articulate to myself the art in which I trained for over 20 years."

Well that's always good. And if you feel that you've gotten something valuable to stay with SD for 2 decades..then Bravo!



"Granted not everyone here has displayed an open mind, but many others have and it's been a beneficial dialouge on the whole."


I cannot speak for anyone but myself. I've looked at the statements made by Sin Kwang The and those of the SD organization. And after looking at the historical timeline of Shaolin and with the dates of the diaspora of Su Kong to Indonesia..there is a disparity there. I bear no ill will towards Su Kong, but that doesn't mean that I can't find his claims untenable now does it?

"As far as comparing SD to CMD or OYD or whatever it is calling itself now, other than some grossly unverified histories the comparision ends there."

Do I detect that you are saying that OYD is "grossly unverified" and yet SD is not?


"Some do not. In the end it doesn't matter if you are getting a great workout and learning how to defend yourself."

Brothers and sisters..can I get an AMEN?! However, that still does not mean I need to buy the claims of Sin Kwang The.


"I wish you well in your training. "

Likewise

JP:

If I may, it appears you are valiantly and quite reasonably trying to discuss something rationally with someone who's mind is so made up, Su Kong could come back and tell his story personally with a Power Point presentation, and he still wouldn't believe it. Ancient scrolls could reveal the existence and presence of Su Kong at Shaolin (hyphenated or not) and he'd find a way to call them fakes. Nor would it matter if 10 SD students competed against 10 non-SD students of like experience, and compared results, even if the SD students surpassed the non-SD's in any area.

We know that, true or false, SD has no monopoly on legends that are unverifiable. Consider the following, reciting the history and lineage of Tongbei Quan, "a traditional martial art with a long history:"

"The legend tells of an old an famous martial artist named Yuan Gong who lived during the Spring and Autumn Time around 500 BC. He had white hair and a white beard and always wore white clothes. Having challenged another master to a fight, Yuan lost and was transformed into a white ape, whereupon he fled into the forest. Known as Baiyan Laoren, which means 'old man like a white ape' or 'claimed to be the white ape in human form,' he was believed to be an immortal ape who always taught his skill in secret. Of course this story, not surprisingly, was viewed with widespread skepticism by most people, but it is also a familiar tale far and wide. . . . Although most people preserve this legend, they do not really believe it."

Lu, Shengli, "Combat Techniques of Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua," published by Yin Cheng Gong Fa Association, and Blue Snake Books, Berkely, CA (2006), p. 103.

Yet, I have no less respect for Tongbei Quan or its students because any of its students tell, retell, or believe that story. Or if one of them told me, "I wasn't there, but this is the legend I was told by my teachers," I'd respect it no less, if in fact it was effective for them, which apparently it is.

Many will call the stories lies, because they can't be proven, although the detractors also can't disprove it. And therefore discredit the product, and the practitioner. As you have more eloquently said, "Who cares? Practice and therefore benefit, or go somewhere else."

The funny part being, it is nothing new: the same point was made in a published letter to the editor in Inside Kung-Fu Magazine if I remember correctly, responding to a published critic of GMT and SD, in 1983 if I'm not mistaken, an issue I still have since I know the author. He wants to "lock the thread"? The "thread" has been going since before there was an Internet.

[LaterthanNever]

Onestudent,

"For JP and LTN: Maybe "Later" is not better than "Never""

Wow..you really zinged me there!! I may never recover!!! Oh this is just awful....



"Su Kong could come back and tell his story personally with a Power Point presentation, and he still wouldn't believe it. "


Uuhhhh..allrightie then!



"Ancient scrolls could reveal the existence and presence of Su Kong at Shaolin (hyphenated or not) and he'd find a way to call them fakes."

Well onestudent..that's all the difference in the world now isn't it? You can talk about "this could be" and "that could be" until Sin Kwangs' bones are replenishing the phosphorus in the soil. Alot of things in the world "could be"..yet they are not.
And when the days comes that an "ancient scroll" comes up documenting this..then..well..I guess I will owe the SD folks an apology. But it has not happened yet and I don't think it is going to. Surely a monk with hair all over his face and body would stand out among the other monks now wouldn't he? And a monk w/ hair all over his face and body would definitely be someone in the history books, ancient scrolls(or whatever) would be at least mentioned once right? So too, would a hairy monk who achieved the title of "Grandmaster of Shaolin".(the latter being my main issue. I'm sure that Su Kong himself existed..I don't buy the Grandmaster title..esp. since Grandmaster refers to the current leader of a style of kung fu. Shaolin as we all know(perhaps minus the SD folks) is a PLACE).

[nautavac]

Hello folks, I am new to posting on this forum and new to Shaolin Do. It is interesting how "Everyone" seems to know immediately that SD is fake without even trying it out at least past first black level. I myself have been training SD now for about two months, or going on two months, and am still at white level because my instructor wants me to learn the material and the application properly. After seeing some of the youtube stuff I agree. Why I chose SD is partly because of my reception at the school when I arrived to look it over and partly due to the fact that the only other thing offered was karate and tae kwon do, the instructor there also demanded I sign a contract before even watching a class!
SD was totally different, and there was no talk of money until after I participated in about three classes and approached the instructor asking for membership. I have the utmost respect for all martial arts, and my instructor first of all.
It is hard to believe the angst that folks have against SD, I have been reading this thread for the past several months in my spare time, and while there are some meaningful posts most of the replies are nothing but empty challenges and poorly composed puns. Judge Pen seems to be the most adequately equipped person on this forum to reply to some of the statements that have been made. Facepalm also deserves a pat on the back for showing some of the honor that we are taught to GOju in accepting a challenge and following through it.
I would like to learn more about SD, as well as Hsing yi, mantis, Tai Chi, and others. I can't wait to find out where I will end up once I find what suits me as far as style.
As Far as SD goes, I have discussed it with BJJ practitioners at my workplace, and Taekwondo practitioners, the general consensus around here is that it is just forms. At my school forms are not the focus of our classes, conditioning is first for the beginners along with a short form and sparring techniques and self defense. What I was really surprised by was the sparring that we did during my first class. That is the linking pin in our school, we are taught the forms as well as their application then we are given the opportunity to use them and the sparring techniques in medium to light contact sparring.
I don't know about other schools or styles but this is just what we do, and I do enjoy it as well as the conditioning as I can feel my body slowly changing due to the conditioning.
Judge Pen, thank you for your responses in favor of SD. Through all the darkness that has been the replies on this thread you and a few others have been really helpful in showing what we are taught. As far as the other repliers go, One can easily see that they are taught in their posts; sad really. TTFN

[sha0lin1]

Hello folks, I am new to posting on this forum and new to Shaolin Do. It is interesting how "Everyone" seems to know immediately that SD is fake without even trying it out at least past first black level. I myself have been training SD now for about two months, or going on two months, and am still at white level because my instructor wants me to learn the material and the application properly. After seeing some of the youtube stuff I agree. Why I chose SD is partly because of my reception at the school when I arrived to look it over and partly due to the fact that the only other thing offered was karate and tae kwon do, the instructor there also demanded I sign a contract before even watching a class!
SD was totally different, and there was no talk of money until after I participated in about three classes and approached the instructor asking for membership. I have the utmost respect for all martial arts, and my instructor first of all.
It is hard to believe the angst that folks have against SD, I have been reading this thread for the past several months in my spare time, and while there are some meaningful posts most of the replies are nothing but empty challenges and poorly composed puns. Judge Pen seems to be the most adequately equipped person on this forum to reply to some of the statements that have been made. Facepalm also deserves a pat on the back for showing some of the honor that we are taught to GOju in accepting a challenge and following through it.
I would like to learn more about SD, as well as Hsing yi, mantis, Tai Chi, and others. I can't wait to find out where I will end up once I find what suits me as far as style.
As Far as SD goes, I have discussed it with BJJ practitioners at my workplace, and Taekwondo practitioners, the general consensus around here is that it is just forms. At my school forms are not the focus of our classes, conditioning is first for the beginners along with a short form and sparring techniques and self defense. What I was really surprised by was the sparring that we did during my first class. That is the linking pin in our school, we are taught the forms as well as their application then we are given the opportunity to use them and the sparring techniques in medium to light contact sparring.
I don't know about other schools or styles but this is just what we do, and I do enjoy it as well as the conditioning as I can feel my body slowly changing due to the conditioning.
Judge Pen, thank you for your responses in favor of SD. Through all the darkness that has been the replies on this thread you and a few others have been really helpful in showing what we are taught. As far as the other repliers go, One can easily see that they are taught in their posts; sad really. TTFN

Having been a former SD student myself, I can attest to the atmosphere and dedication of many of the instructors there. Many of my friends still practice SD and they are fine martial artists. The controversy and the problem that people have with SD is that they claim to teach, and use the name Shaolin. LTN is right in his statement that someone who stands out so much like SKTD would be a legend at Shaolin and be in the history books. If he accomplished what SD says that he did, then that would have been a major thing. I don't think that there is any monk out there that has ever learned all of the forms and techniques of the Temple. There are many Shaolin masters that are in the history books and others research of Shaolin for less than what SKTD supposedly did. Now if SKT had kept his Sin Kwang The Karate school like it says on the belt certificates or called it a Shaolin inspired system, then there probably wouldn't be a controversy. Anyway, that being said, people need to find a martial art that fits them and if they like and are comfortable with SD then fine. But on the same token SD should stop telling people that they teach tradaitional Shaolin Kung Fu and that the forms they are learning were taught at the Temple because they were not. This misleads people but then SD is not the only art that does this, there are others.

[LaterthanNever]

"Having been a former SD student myself, I can attest to the atmosphere and dedication of many of the instructors there."

For the record, I don't have any doubt that those who study there are passionate. Same applies to the dedication of the instructors. And if studying SD keeps people off the street, away from drugs, instills a better self image, increased self confidence,etc.etc...then that's great!


"Many of my friends still practice SD and they are fine martial artists."

See above

"The controversy and the problem that people have with SD is that they claim to teach, and use the name Shaolin."

Your parents should be congratulated for raising such rational children. If the Shaolin temples were never rebuilt after they were torched..and there was no current Shaolin temple today..and to be thorough..lets say that whatever records of who studied there were burned to a crisp, that would be a different story. But that is not the case. And if SD claims were as legit as they claim, you can bet the farm that the current Shaolin ABBOTT(the correct title..not grandmaster) would be corroborating Sin Kwangs claims. But we live in a world that is just the click of a mouse away. It's so incredibly easy to be UN-ignorant these days.


"I don't think that there is any monk out there that has ever learned all of the forms and techniques of the Temple. "

Indeed. Especially since so many dozens(perhaps even hundreds as I have been told) of styles and sub-systems are dead/extinct. As for learning 900 forms? Ask a man like GM Doc Fai Wong..who very well may know the most ammount of Choy Li Fut forms in the world..if it were possible to learn 900 forms..and let me know his reaction(I'd guess that he'd either laugh, accuse you of being on drugs or something pretty close).


"Now if SKT had kept his Sin Kwang The Karate school like it says on the belt certificates or called it a Shaolin inspired system, then there probably wouldn't be a controversy. Anyway, that being said, people need to find a martial art that fits them and if they like and are comfortable with SD then fine."

There you go..that would be much more reasonable.


"But on the same token SD should stop telling people that they teach tradaitional Shaolin Kung Fu and that the forms they are learning were taught at the Temple because they were not. This misleads people but then SD is not the only art that does this, there are others. "

As I stated..there is some misleading statements and confusion here. For instance..one of the styles that SD claims to teach is Mantis. Yet when I look at their syllabus..I see only one actual FORM of mantis. I don't believe any style of kung fu has only one form..not even Wing Chun which has only 3 hand forms.

If SD claimed to teach mantis..it would be more accurate to say that teach "a mantis kung fu form"...NOT A STYLE. If their mantis syllabus looked like this, then I'd say that's valid:



Tam Tui
Gung Lik Kune (Strength Building)
Sop Say Lo (14 Roads)
Sam Choi Gim (3 Attainment Sword)
Jeet Ng Mui Far Dao (5th Meridian Plum Blossom Broadsword)
Chut Sing Gan (7 Star Canes)
Bung Bo (Crushing Step)
Bung Bo Demonstration
Sap Baat Sao (18 Elders)
Dao Gung (Avoiding Hardness)
Hok Fu Chiao Gar (Black Tiger Cross/ Black Tiger Intercept)
Da Fan Che (Big Wheel Fist)
Chaap Choy (Stabbing Fist)
6 Harmony Staff
Tow Far San Doy Da
6 Harmonies Staff
2nd Essential Fist

[MasterKiller]

I myself have been training SD now for about two months, or going on two months, and am still at white level because my instructor wants me to learn the material and the application properly.

http://overlypositive.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/stfu-noob.jpg

[bodhi warrior]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZwZf8IUytuY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Personally I like it.

[kwaichang]

Glad to see all of you are still at it. A difference here and there is normal. The Tang Lang we do in SD has Cond ex , springy leg Tech Jade ring Tech Forms and much more including specific 2 man drills as well KC

[LaterthanNever]

"The Tang Lang we do in SD has Cond ex "

cond ex= conditionin exercises?

Does SD teach sets like "Fan Che"(rolling wheel), Lian Jie(intercept fist), Bung Bu(crushing step/collapsing leg), and others?

If not..then you have a long way to go..

[kwaichang]

Yes and Yes, as far as Fan Jie Yes but it is known as something else I will look up our term for it , Intercepting fist ???? will let you know Bung Bu and Crushing Step yes and Yes , so not too far to go I guess. We have 10 roads and Tan/M Tui as well Iron Bone cond, wrist, leg, hip. shoulder etc and Iron Shirt as well. and You ????? what can you do, not , what does your style teach?? KC

[sean_stonehart]

SD doesn't teach Lan Jeet or Fan Che (Dai or Siu). There's a version of Cha Choi & Bung Bo they do as well as Bai Yuan Chut Dong & 4th Route Essentials.

[shen ku]

hey sean got any peanut butter??

or know anyplace that has some good chinese food? if you do tell me so i will know to stay away

[sean_stonehart]

Hey Chris!!

Yeah have peanut butter!! But no so much as you I bet.

As far as Chinese food I know several bomb places to get the grub on!! But you gotta like Chinese food & speak Mandarin to order properly. You're ok there... :D

But I can take you to a Vietnamese sandwich shop that will blow your mind with awesomeness & you'd never want anything else again.

[nautavac]

MasterKiller,
In response to your assertion. NO!

[kwaichang]

Dont know where you got your info on Tang Lang in SD but you are not completly correct I have all of the Tang Lang just have to review my notes so I dont type the wrong words. In Chinese. will let you know. You didnt even mention 7 Hands etc. KC

[sean_stonehart]

Dont know where you got your info on Tang Lang in SD but you are not completly correct I have all of the Tang Lang just have to review my notes so I dont type the wrong words. In Chinese. will let you know. You didnt even mention 7 Hands etc. KC

Drills are drills. There are a billion drills.

I was talking sets. And I never said I was absolute. I was going by what I've seen & experienced. Neither Fan Che was ever seen in SD, nor was Lan Jeet.

I've seen the SD versions of Bung Bo, Cha Choi, Bai Yuan Chut Dong and Sei Luo Jak Yiu.

If there are more orthodox mantis sets in SD, bring them out.

[kwaichang]

Tan Tui, Tang Lang Sou, Chuo Kang, Yu Lang, Se Pa Siao, Suang Cha Hua, Mei Hua Lu, He Hu Chiao Chu, Lha Chue, Siao Huan Che, Se Lu Kuen Ta, Chi Sing Chien, Mei Hua Chien, Peng Chien, Lan Chie, Chie Yao, Pu Tao, Pa Chien, Pai Yen Tou Tao, Pai Yen Chu Tung, Pai Yen Sien Kuo, Pai Yen Sien Tae, Pai Yen Siao Hu, Pai Yen Sien Su, This is the forms / sets in SD Tang Lang, These are the sets in the Mantis training, also contained are the Jade Ring Training 9, Stance Linkage, Hand linkage, Kick Linkage, Seven Hands, Springy Leg 10, @ man arm Banging 7, ttok some time , Sean Have you seen all this where you trained SD ??? KC

[sean_stonehart]

Tan Tui, Tang Lang Sou, Chuo Kang, Yu Lang, Se Pa Siao, Suang Cha Hua, Mei Hua Lu, He Hu Chiao Chu, Lha Chue, Siao Huan Che, Se Lu Kuen Ta, Chi Sing Chien, Mei Hua Chien, Peng Chien, Lan Chie, Chie Yao, Pu Tao, Pa Chien, Pai Yen Tou Tao, Pai Yen Chu Tung, Pai Yen Sien Kuo, Pai Yen Sien Tae, Pai Yen Siao Hu, Pai Yen Sien Su, This is the forms / sets in SD Tang Lang, These are the sets in the Mantis training, also contained are the Jade Ring Training 9, Stance Linkage, Hand linkage, Kick Linkage, Seven Hands, Springy Leg 10, @ man arm Banging 7, ttok some time , Sean Have you seen all this where you trained SD ??? KC

I told you what I'd seen & been exposed to. It's right above this post.

I've got to figure out what most of that is above & then compare it to orthodox Mantis.

Some of the sets I recognize (Mei Hua Lu). Tan Tui isn't Mantis. Tan Tui is Tan Tui. Multiple styles have adopted it. SD doing the 10 Road is the Muslim Tan Tui & not the 14 Road most commonly associated with Mantis via the Jing Mo.

Like I said about the drills... drills are drills & those are a billion in count & a dime a dozen. That's nothing special.

But... you've done all of this in your SD training?

Now... I've got to go figure out what lots of this is when I get off work.

[kwaichang]

Dont get defensive I was just wondering, also in Line two there is Lan Chie I think that is Fan Chie or similar to it, well dont spend too much time on it the spelling may be off. I will send u the translations if you want them so you can research them and I have not done all of them but most. KC

[kwaichang]

I trained 7 Star Tang Lang for 10 years prior to SD and am well versed in that style but like SD better. KC

[sean_stonehart]

Dont get defensive I was just wondering, also in Line two there is Lan Chie I think that is Fan Chie or similar to it, well dont spend too much time on it the spelling may be off. I will send u the translations if you want them so you can research them and I have not done all of them but most. KC

Not defensive but pointing out what I'd already pointed out. No worries, no harm no foul. Lovliness of forums as opposed to face to face...

Yeah send me the translations if you don't mind. I'll IM you my email address.

[bodhi warrior]

http://youtu.be/ZwZf8IUytuY
I like it.
I tried this before lets see if it copied this time.

[kwaichang]

Not really it seems the guy is slowing down and emphasizing Power more than anything but that is not the SD Hua either. KC

[bodhi warrior]

I think he just put together a sample of hua fist. But he is part of gm sin's lineage. Not sure who his teacher is. But I can appreciate his athleticism and technique. I never learned hua but wish I would have. Have you seen any vids that are a close approximation?

[kwaichang]

I have copies of the Hua as I was taught, this fellow is of the Sword schools of the west and seems to have had Tae Kwon Do back ground from his mechanics and execution of his techniques. His stances are not rooted but has good flexibility. KC I will look on U tube to see if there are any closer

[Northwind]

Since folks are talking Mantis here, I will jump in! (Just kidding, I know jack about mantis, aside from our BSL interpretations of some movements & theories).

LTN - Gotta know that I am with you on this, but also with the SD folks (bet you thought you'd never hear that from me, Sean, eh? :P)

I agree that SD is not what it purports, however I have too many friends that have been in SD and were able to pull the gold from the fodder so to speak, both in forms and fighting. That being said, I just can not buy the idea that simply because SC may (now...) have some northern preying mantis forms and such in it, that the student will be proficient in a northern mantis system (especially since there is NO "northern mantis" but rather a bunch of different mantis styles being of northern origin, like 7 star, mei hua, taiji, yadda).

And this could be said for any of the gazillions of styles purported by SD. Simply because someone picks up and then teach Sam Bo Fu Nan Choi, for example, it does not make them a Jook Lum practitioner.

No disrespect to the SD folks here - it's a new day and most people have access to the information out there, so they are making a conscious choice to go to SD, as for as I said earlier, it can definitely expose folks to some ideas & forms and give them fighting skills. However to be a true TCMA practitioner, ya have to train a true TCMA style.

Anyway, I am enjoying following this discussion. I won't post (cept for maybe every other two hundred pages or so :P) unless someone talks to me directly. Otherwise - y'all have fun now! :)

[tattooedmonk]

Not really it seems the guy is slowing down and emphasizing Power more than anything but that is not the SD Hua either. KC Jake has added his own style to it, but SD is the source .:eek::) He is an ex CSC student...you know the one that was caught up in all the drama last year and the year before, remember? he changed his last name...

[LaterthanNever]

"LTN - Gotta know that I am with you on this, but also with the SD folks (bet you thought you'd never hear that from me, Sean, eh? :P)"

Hey..it's no skin off my nose who or what you want to believe!

"agree that SD is not what it purports, however I have too many friends that have been in SD and were able to pull the gold from the fodder so to speak, both in forms and fighting. That being said, I just can not buy the idea that simply because SC may (now...) have some northern preying mantis forms and such in it, that the student will be proficient in a northern mantis system"

Saying that one is "proficient" in a mantis style(regardless of 7 star, 6 harmonies, 8 step, plum blossom,etc.) just from learning 2 or 3 forms is like taking 2 or 3 college classes in a semester of "Spanish 101" and(after failing to attend the rest of the classes for the rest of the semester/quarter/trimester) considering onself fluent in Spanish. I can't remember who made this analogy once..but whoever it was..thanks!


"(especially since there is NO "northern mantis" but rather a bunch of different mantis styles being of northern origin, like 7 star, mei hua, taiji, yadda). "

Praying mantis as a style(regardless of what sub style) began in Kwangtung(Northern China) province.

"And this could be said for any of the gazillions of styles purported by SD. Simply because someone picks up and then teach Sam Bo Fu Nan Choi, for example, it does not make them a Jook Lum practitioner"

BINGO!! And that is why the "900 styles" claim is too off the wall. A student doesn't learn the form "Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen" in the Hung Ga style and then go around saying "I'm a Hung Ga sifu". Well that's what Sin Kwang The dupes people into believeing (ie: you've learned one form from 30 different styles of kung fu..therefore you know all 30 styles). Just plain nuts!

[bodhi warrior]

Jake has added his own style to it, but SD is the source .:eek::) He is an ex CSC student...you know the one that was caught up in all the drama last year and the year before, remember? he changed his last name...

So what did he do wrong exactly. I remember their being some controversy but never got any details.

[kwaichang]

What are you trying to say, that SD has no supported training for its styles or forms if so you are wrong, the mantis itself has much to offer in that aspect You ever train or see SD at all? KC

[LaterthanNever]

"the mantis itself has much to offer in that aspect You ever train or see SD at all?"

Don't need to train in SD my friend..I study mantis!!(8step mantis). I've seen some SD and admit to not being very impressed..

[kwaichang]

Dont know what you have seen , but there are good and bad in anything Kung fu included. So sorry you had a bad experience with what you saw. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

The naysayers on this site still crack me up.

I'll admit that SD or ST or whatever is not "official" Shaolin, but I still haven't seen official Shaolin. Every Tai Chi instructor I've ever had--2 from China--has the "official" Tai Chi, and it's always some moot application that gives the form its "originality." To me, Tai CHi is wrestling, plain and simple. I don't care what the "official" applications are outside of curriculum issues as long as I can use Tai Chi principles.

SD/ST has its own forms, several of which are common to other martial arts. Look at Bai Yuan Tou Tao---50 versions of a form across various arts, all basically 7 Star. And all 50 versions teach the same principles of motion, blocking, punching, and trapping. It doesn't matter who you learn a form from, and you don't need "official" applications. After rolling in BJJ and training MMA, and studying ST/SD for 7 years on top of that (I think it's 7 years), I can tell you one thing:

If you need "official" applications, you probably have been missing the point all along. LOL.

As for Su Kong and the gang...is this even an issue? It's not like people are "pushing" an alternative history. There's advertising, sure, but nobody walks into the school saying--teach me your shaolin wookie lineage. LOL. People want to get fit and learn some cool stuff.

I still haven't seen a drunken form outside of SD that was ever worth a ****.

[Shaolin Wookie]

SD has its history--take it or leave it. Some parts are true, some are fabrications. This is GUARANTEED in all history, esepcially in Chinese martial arts.

GM The' was taught by Ie Chang Ming was taught by Su Kong. Was Su Kong a wookie? Maybe....who knows? Was he master of Shaolin? Unlikely....but again...who knows? Just about everything in China was thrown down the Orwellian memory hole, and Shaolin is highly mythical anyways. I'm a skeptic, but then, MA history isn't history per se. And I can tell you that about 90% of SD /ST students don't give a flip about lineage traditions. Since most students aren't Chinese, "intellectual lineages" don't mean much.

LOL....

People in the US keep telling us that China has the world's #1 economy, but they're inflating their currency beyond even what hte US and the EU have dreamt of, and they've been building phantom cities. Still, they're throwing out irrelevant GDP landmarks on a yearly basis. History will tell a different story when the Chinese economy collapses, since nobody beats the laws of economics. Who will have the correct history on this one? Authorities will be divided.

[Shaolin Wookie]

A mantis is a mantis.

QED.

What is mantis kung fu? It is, well, kung fu that looks "mantiddy." Whose looks the most "mantiddy"? I don't know. Whose has the most effective "mantiddiness"? I have no idea. Can you hit? Can you trap? Can you block/redirect? Can you do these things utilizing the proper methods of motion?

If you can, you're doing mantis.

Which of these two guys is doing better mantis?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E9uLaMBevg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=ODreYYme0rs

Both pretty ****ed good, but the forms are different. Principles of movement are the same, and both are better than I am....but I'm not a mantis specialist.

Still doesn't explain if either guy can "fight".....since that depends on many more factors than how a form looks, the principles it teaches, or even the length of training. All of that depends on circumstances. I've seen amazing BJJ guys get tapped out by people they "should have" beaten.

[Shaolin Wookie]

As my teacher explains it....SD/ST has a "shaolin" root. Everything--Tai Chi, Pakua, etc., has a kung fu base in our system. It's part of the SD/ST way, and you can immediately see that difference when watching performers of various styles within the system.

The way I see it, EVERYTHING GM Sin taught is tinged with the root of the curriculum---Short forms. Doesn't matter the style, the animal, internal/external--everything in ST/SD has a tinge of the 30 short forms (though there are many more, from what I've heard).

This is good and it is bad. #1--it means that you should never flounder for analogs to movements. The bad? It means that sometimes you find yourself "breaking the rules" of internal/external forms. That's where the controversy comes in for insiders and outsiders, but it's usually a quick fix for openminded practitioners.

It's no big deal unless you're looking for absolute, inviolable martial truth. But what in the hell woudl that look like anyways?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_c1Odol9xw&feature=relmfu

"I have 5 X your strength! You're no match for me!" (BTW, worst stunt double ever)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Blah blah blah. GM Sin says this or that on his advertising.....

I know something like 60 forms. My best? Yang Tai Chi, any crane, birds, spears, and I'm working on drunken styles (they rearranged hte curriculum down here to get the younger students working on Drunken early....which is SWEET!).

But when you know any of SD/ST's forms, you know the 30 basic short forms. I know those forms the absolute best. They're my go-to techniques because they're the most natural....doesn't matter the style or the flair. They're the basis of everything.

In a way, I know short form #1 and #2 in like 60 different ways. I can go without practicing those short forms for 2 weeks, practicing only my other 59 forms. And when I go back and study the 30 short forms, I'm always better at them. I can guarantee you that every SD/ST practitioner on this thread who is worth his/her sand will tell any naysayer the exact same thing.

[Shaolin Wookie]

30 short forms cover: front sweeps, back sweeps, throws, locks, punches, kicks, angles, movement. Nothing fancy. Straight and to the point. These are the ABC's of SD/ST. And they are incredibly versatile in my opinion. I use the same principles of the short forms whether I'm wrestling, sparring, or rolling (that is, before [or if] I hit the ground). I'm no martial god, but I'm certainly no pushover.

Throw in the ippons, chinna, and techniques, and you have everything you need for "applications." Funny thing is--every application I've seen in a non-ST/SD system has the same fundamentals, dressed differently. Not all people in ST/SD are good at those applications (i've seen them personally in Wing Chun, Longfist, BJJ, Judo, and Japanese Jujitsu) but the root concepts are always the same.

Bad side= those "forms" etc., are the most boring and unsexy pieces of the SD/ST curriculum. Newbs to the SD/ST scene think they're boring, at least that's what I have gathered from my experience teaching them, and therefore neglect them.

I can always tell who knows their stuff (rather than "remembers" 20 forms, or even 60 forms) based on their short forms and chin na. If you don't know that, you don't know jack. If you know 'em, you don't know Everything, but you know the principles behind everything.

[LaterthanNever]

"A mantis is a mantis.

QED.

What is mantis kung fu? It is, well, kung fu that looks "mantiddy.""

Why do I get the feeling like I am reading a post that reminds me of stuff L. Ron Hubbard talks about(when I hear gullable scientologists go on their rant?) He was fond of inventing his own terminology. And so it goes w/ "mantiddy" :rolleyes::rolleyes:



"Can you do these things utilizing the proper methods of motion?

If you can, you're doing mantis."

Oh wise one..I am not worthy to be receiving of your expert SD knowledge!

"Can you hit? Can you trap? Can you block/redirect? Can you do these things utilizing the proper methods of motion?"


Mantis has certain characteristics and if you studied any of the main branches, you would learn some things which are particular to it. If you don't learn the 4 main methods of using the mantis claw..then you are living in a "mantiddy" fantiddy fantasy world Wookie!!

1.) (gou), embrace
2.) (lou), grab
3.) (cai),
4.) Mantis hook (gua)chop

etc.etc.

If there is no mention of these in the SD version of mantis..then you can call it whatever you like..it aint the same...



Which looks more "mantiddy" Grandmaster Wookie? If you think that this clip(from the 40 second mark to the 43 second mark):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xcly0coJw

looks like THIS clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwqNVVL0L6o&feature=related



then I'd suggest lowering your dosage..

[OldandUsed]

Wook....nice breakdown. Enjoyed it and pretty much feel the same way. Trust you realize that LTN is not even close to open minded enough to consider you may have a point. Semantics aside, he is a believer in his system and that is that. I am right there with you in the if it works it is good department and I never bought into or got wrapped up into the history/linage thing, although I did enjoy the stories.

[kwaichang]

When I taught the Mantis Class I taught all those aspects listed, and SD Mantis is what it is and its good. Every Mantis guy I have known has discredited others in the same art, And I have known a bunch , instead of trying to best verbally the other style why not say haey all MA have something to offer. SD does too. KC

[Old Noob]

Thanks Wook. Good stuff well said.

[Shaolin Wookie]

[QUOTE=LaterthanNever;1137658]
1.) (gou), embrace
2.) (lou), grab
3.) (cai),
4.) Mantis hook (gua)chop
QUOTE]

LOL... Embrace, grab, hook, chop

Without the Chinese lingo, this is absolutely.......banal! Even a tard knows those. LOL...

Tell me...does your "embrace," "grab," "hook"/"chop" in any way differ from, oh, I don't know, any other embrace, grab, hook/chop? You had to learn it from a specific individual? You couldn't learn the same from a Kyokushin master? You got one man's interpretation, sure, and his lingo. But I bet you didn't get much more than a basic embrace, grab, hook/chop, dressed up as a mantis.

Your version might vary in very minor and insignificant ways, but very significant for stylistic purposes.

[LaterthanNever]

"Without the Chinese lingo, this is absolutely.......banal! Even a tard knows those. LOL.".

Well YOU didn't..but I guess all of the sum total of what you learn is: " hit/ trap/block and redirect"

It's a start..but if you think that's all that one learns in a mantis style..then think again.

[Shaolin Wookie]

"Without the Chinese lingo, this is absolutely.......banal! Even a tard knows those. LOL.".

Well YOU didn't..but I guess all of the sum total of what you learn is: " hit/ trap/block and redirect"

It's a start..but if you think that's all that one learns in a mantis style..then think again.

How about 7 hands, 8 hands, body leaning, elbow leaning, and the hand, foot, and leg linkages? They teach nothing?

LOL....people looking in from their ivory towers outside have no idea that we learn the same stuff.

Granted, I won't learn the whole 7 star system in SD/ST. I won't learn all of the weapons forms, etc. I won't be a pure "mantis" player. But then, I will learn the same principles, motions, strikes, angles, etc. And I'll probably supplement what I don't learn in my own Black Tigers, mantis forms, cranes, etc., with the root of the SD/ST system, which is the 30 short forms. In fact, my 30 short forms have a hint of Bai Yuan Tou Tao in them, simply based on my preference. Bai Yuan Tou Tao is just a delivery system for the core principles.

You have your core motions/forms, and we have ours. Our core forms are a chopped-up version of the Tan Tui, broken into basic motions, and 30 chin-na (throws and locks). Its root is basically longfist (at least, my own experience in longfist tells me this, even outside of the "Tan Tui" root of the short forms). I learned a Chinese form of Tan Tui, but I haven't practised it in years. It's simply no good compared to the short forms, in my opinion--which is just an opinion.

I will admit that many lower belt students (2nd black and below), and some higher belt sifus in our system do their kung fu "karatified," but many don't. At the same time, sometimes I see experienced pakua guys in our system with very pakua-like hands and stiffness in the arms when they do Tai Chi, just as I see many Tai Chi guys outside of our system perform pakua with too much softness. I see this as a mistake, just as one might see a mistake in my use of Tan Tui principles in Bai Yuan Tou Tao. But you can always tell where a particular practitioner has his root values--in Tai Chi, Pakua, Tiger, or our short form/longfist core.

Where you as a practitioner strike a balance is largely a part of what your system/style/teacher teaches. This is why there is such diversity in Chinese martial arts. We have some Indonesian influence, some Japanese influence (GM Sin has a black belt in Judo, if I'm not mistaken), and a heavy Chinese root. We strike a different balance.

[LaterthanNever]

"How about 7 hands, 8 hands, body leaning, elbow leaning, and the hand, foot, and leg linkages? "

So you can hold your hands in 7 or 8 different ways, lean on someone,etc. I guess that's ok..but being able to assume a posture means nothing if you don't understand WHY you are doing it.






They teach nothing?

"LOL....people looking in from their ivory towers outside have no idea that we learn the same stuff."

you confuse a few concepts or techniques with the totality of a style. I don't learn half of ONE wing chun form and then say I know the whole style now do I?



"Granted, I won't learn the whole 7 star system in SD/ST. "

Then you can't say it's the "same stuff". And it doesn't matter if you learned a few principles here and there and a few hand postures too. You don't take a bite or two from each portion of food of a 5 course meal and say you ate the whole thing



"I won't learn all of the weapons forms, etc. I won't be a pure "mantis" player."

This is more all or nothing thinking! The problem arises when someone learns a few techniques or concepts and then says "we learn mantis in SD".




" I learned a Chinese form of Tan Tui, but I haven't practised it in years."

As opposed to what? A form of Tan Tui originating in Iceland? Tam Tui is only from China!! When you learned it..let me guess..you told people "We learned the Tam Tui style in SD"? The more you talk..the sillier you sound!!



"I will admit that many lower belt students (2nd black and below), and some higher belt sifus in our system do their kung fu "karatified," but many don't."

Wouldn't a style w/ it's act together not have such a variance between instructors and schools? When I see 7 star mantis instructors do a form in a school in NY..it looks identical to the same form if a school was in South Carolina. Same w/ pretty much any legit style..






"At the same time, sometimes I see experienced pakua guys in our system with very pakua-like hands "

Amazing how that happens..aint it? Generally if you study a style for a dozen years of more,you incoporate it into how you move. I guess this opposed to how one would see "experienced pa kua guys with capoeira like moves" :rolleyes:





"and stiffness in the arms when they do Tai Chi, just as I see many Tai Chi guys outside of our system perform pakua with too much softness."

Pa Kua is SUPPOSED to be done softly! It's an internal art. If someone does Pa Kua/Ba Gua with external ging like a Hung Ga guy..then something is amiss!






__________________

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL....dude, how do you think mantis kung fu came about? Do you honestly think it was a little stubby-armed guy who sat in a his room and thought about how a mantis moves when it fights (with its insect "moves"), and then created the style ex nihilo? And do you think the current mantis styles are one ****geneous thing?

Pure theology.

People adapted kung fu to animal techniques. They violated previously-established systems. They opened up the traditional movements to new interpretations.

They had open minds. They allowed arts to change. There is no "pure" kung fu except when your punch meets your opponent's face.

As for the pakua bit, even you have to know that there's a difference between tai chi softness and pakua softness. Hell, even I know that.

As for the bit about the necessity of learning an "entire system," the notion of the completeness of your system is completely subjective. As I said, the completeness of the ST/SD system, and my own take on that system, is short forms/chinna/tai chi/wrestling. I've never seen Shaolin groundfighting (or at least, Shaolin groundfighting not based on Judo or BJJ), and I can tell you that if you and I were going at it, I wouldn't fight you stand-up. LOL. I could even break out into "pakua capoeira" if I liked, since I've studied both arts. I could call it "Laurel and Hardy" style if I liked.

[Shaolin Wookie]

As for the 5 course meal...that one had me chuckling. Do you have to eat the whole chicken to know that you're eating chicken? Do you get to its "essence" only by devouring the chicken to its bones? And where do you stop? Do you eat the bones, suck the marrows, and lap up the grease? Do you eat a chicken-only diet, and do you limit your plate to 5 kinds of chicken?

Maybe if you tasted some other foods, you might realize:

"It all tastes like chicken."

Open your mind, buddy. The whole "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none" argument has its counterpoint: "You'll get hit by the same technique you rule out of probability by focusing on pure refinement." There's a reason why every fighter worth his sand starts with jab-jab-cross.

Answers to irrelevant questions you raise:

I didn't see the value in my, yes, "Chinese" Tan Tui. Didn't give the old "same as in SD/ST" argument. They're different, but the core motions are the same.

How many ways can you dress up a punch? Is there such a thing as a mantis punch? I have specific punches and hand forms that only appear in mantis forms, but what is a mantis punch if it doesn't land?

A punch is only a punch when it hits, and then it's just a punch. It's not a mantis punch. You're confusing theory with practice.

Maybe you should take some prozac. Seems like you're all hyped up on sugar....and it's not even Halloween yet.

[LaterthanNever]

"Do you get it's essence by devouring the chicken to it's bones?"

Do you call yourself a garage car mechanic by learning just how to check your oil and antifreeze levels? How about..do you call yourself a "historian" just because you read "Articles of the confederacy"? Nuff said.

"Pure theology"

So you and Si Jo Wang Lang were tight back in the day eh? I guess after dropping acid together, he said it came to him in a vision. No..seriously..were you there? :rolleyes:

"Hell even I know that"

Yipee!! :o

"I've never seen Shaolin groundfighting(or at least Shaolin groundfighting not based on BJJ...."

Ever hear of Shuai-Jiao?

"I could even break out my Pa Kua Capoeria if I liked"

And that would still probably be more effective than SD.

What I think would be a fine idea sir..is to get a back issue of the "top 100 kung fu styles of the millenium" issue (Gene Ching's magazine..yes..the same Gene Ching who is a moderator on this site) and read it from front to back. Hint: there is no mention of Sin Kwang, Su Kong, a Shao-lin temple in Indonesia, a style with 900 forms or anything else.

For someone who ostensibly claims to know mantis and for someone who seems to express an intererest in it..why don't you do yourself a favor and study some mantis(regardless of branch) for a while?

There has got to be some in your neck of the woods(what state are you in btw? When in doubt..google)

[Shaolin Wookie]

"Do you get it's essence by devouring the chicken to it's bones?"

Do you call yourself a garage car mechanic by learning just how to check your oil and antifreeze levels? How about..do you call yourself a "historian" just because you read "Articles of the confederacy"? Nuff said.

"Pure theology"

So you and Si Jo Wang Lang were tight back in the day eh? I guess after dropping acid together, he said it came to him in a vision. No..seriously..were you there? :rolleyes:

"Hell even I know that"

Yipee!! :o

"I've never seen Shaolin groundfighting(or at least Shaolin groundfighting not based on BJJ...."

Ever hear of Shuai-Jiao?

"I could even break out my Pa Kua Capoeria if I liked"

And that would still probably be more effective than SD.

What I think would be a fine idea sir..is to get a back issue of the "top 100 kung fu styles of the millenium" issue (Gene Ching's magazine..yes..the same Gene Ching who is a moderator on this site) and read it from front to back. Hint: there is no mention of Sin Kwang, Su Kong, a Shao-lin temple in Indonesia, a style with 900 forms or anything else.

For someone who ostensibly claims to know mantis and for someone who seems to express an intererest in it..why don't you do yourself a favor and study some mantis(regardless of branch) for a while?

There has got to be some in your neck of the woods(what state are you in btw? When in doubt..google)

Did a trial in NPM and SPM, nothing lasting. Didn't like the schools. No slouches at either one, but they had impossible-to-work-with training schedules, and distance was an issue.

#1. I don't have any hate for traditional PM. I don't have hate for any MA, as long as people are training, having fun, learning, etc.

#2. There is a valid critique of SD/ST as a martial system, but you don't know it b/c you don't know the system or its contents. If your beef is simply advertising, you're still not talking martial knowledge. I don't like the advertising either, but I am talking martial knowledge with you.

#3. I can guarantee that you could do SD/ST forms, just like I can do mantis forms. IT's not a one-way street. A punch is a punch, and a kick is a kick. Open minds learn with patience. Closed minds don't.

#4. If you don't know 7 hands, 8 hands, mantis leaning, or the linkages, then you don't know what we know (that is, you don't have comprehensive knowledge of the specific principles that SD practitioners learn in their mantis system), even though you might know those same principles in your own system.

#5. Martial systems are syncretic, and they largely develop like any other system of thought---through spontaneous order (self-interested exchanges of practitioners looking for new outlets and new techniques). MMA is proof of this. Trial-and-error is the best method of proofing techs, but in medieval China, if you screwed up, you died. What is the likelihood that Wang Lang--like a medieval Kim Jong Il--created the martial world from scratch? Quite a leap of faith. And without a method of proofing his techniques, he couldn't so much as develop an idea of martial effectiveness.

I'll agree that sometimes it takes a genius to create something great; but it takes "demand" for that something to really take off. I can guarantee that Wang Lang didn't create the style from scratch, since he had to rely upon principles of fighting common to all other systems of fighting.

[kwaichang]

So did u know Wang Lang during that time as well. Your argument is silly. LTN. If SD punch hits u u are still hit . I do wonder what is a Mantis Punch LOL. Makes me laugh. So i guess all people will have an opinion we know what they are like. BTW GM Sin The has never said we know Hung Gar or Tang Lang as a whole and we are not masters of all styles included in our SD style I dont know where you heard that ????? KC

[LaterthanNever]

"BTW GM Sin The has never said we know Hung Gar or Tang Lang as a whole and we are not masters of all styles included in our SD style I dont know where you heard that ????? "

I'm going to go with the "900 forms from 100 styles"(claim on the website). Er..actually..I think it was "900 styles". Worth mentioning..I'd estimate that there are probably not even 900 actual styles of kung fu practiced today. Oh that's right..only Sin Kwang learned them all..right? :rolleyes:

Then you've got the "GM The talks about the history of the Tiger Crane forms" part on his clip, the listing of SD schools teaching "mantis"..yet there is no listing of what form/forms are taught? Is the form "Bung Bo" taught? Of Zhai Yao? Or "Da Fan Che"?

From the website:


Curriculum
The Kung Fu knowledge taught at the Chinese Shaolin Centers is comprised of various colorful styles of skill and training, making up the Shaolin System available today. Some of the forms and styles we teach are:

Animal Forms
•Black Tiger (Hei Hu)
•White Crane (Pai Hao)
•Monkey (Hou Chuan)
•Preying Mantis (Tang Lang)
•Tiger/Crane form (He/Hu Suang Hsing)
•Shaolin Original Five Animal form (Shaolin U Hsing Chuan)
Internal Arts
•Ta Mo's I Chin Ching (Muscle-Tendon Change Classic)
•Tai Chi Chuan( Grand Ultimate Fist)
•Pa Kua Chang (8 Changes of the Palms)
•Hsing I Chuan (Mind/Form Fist)
Classical Weapons Training
•Monk's Staff (Pang)
•Broadsword (Tao)
•Kwan Tao
•Spear (Chiang)
•Double-edged Sword (Chien)
•Tiger Hook Swords (Hu Tou Gou)
•Butterfly Swords (Tie' Tao)
•Iron Fan(San)
•3-Sectional Staff (San Chie Kuen)
•9-Sectional Steel Whip (Chou Chie San Pien)
Fighting Styles
•Hua Mountain Fist
•Northern & Southern Fist
•Chi Na
•Lohans
For more information about

[kwaichang]

No its 900 Forms of which I have learned or participated in 165 the way I count. Not styles. Look at your list it does not say style it says forms. KC
BTW I listed the forms taught in our Tang Lang system.

[LaterthanNever]

Direct quote vis a vis the website:

"Some of the forms and styles we teach are:"

And for a further breakdown

Animal Forms
•Black Tiger (Hei Hu)- this is a style(Black Tiger style). There are moves within forms such as "Black Tiger steals the heart",etc.

•White Crane (Pai Hao)-This is a style(ie: White Crane Kung Fu..you might want to look at books that Dr. Yang Jwing Ming has written)

•Monkey (Hou Chuan)-This is a style(ie: the Tai Shing Per Kwar or "monkey style")

•Preying Mantis (Tang Lang)-This is a style(the style of preying mantis--which is composed of several sub-families which are composed of different forms


•Tiger/Crane form (He/Hu Suang Hsing)- this is a form OF a style(Hung Ga)


•Shaolin Original Five Animal form (Shaolin U Hsing Chuan). The "original" is awkward. There are styles of kung fu which have a "5 animal form". Some examples include Hung Ga and Choy Li Fut.


Internal Arts
•Ta Mo's I Chin Ching (Muscle-Tendon Change Classic)- this is a set of exercises that one sees in different internal arts..not a style of internal kung fu per se

•Tai Chi Chuan( Grand Ultimate Fist)- an internal style with many branches or families(ie: Chen, Wu, Yang, Sun)

•Pa Kua Chang (8 Changes of the Palms)- a style..not a form.

•Hsing I Chuan (Mind/Form Fist)- ditto

•Northern & Southern Fist- again..which ones?


•Chi Na-- you mean "Chin-Na/Qin-Na"?? This is a concept of joint/tendon locking and grabbing. There is not strictly speaking a style of kung fu called "Chin Na". There ARE however styles of kung fu which teach Chin-Na WITHIN the style(an example would be Eagle Claw kung fu-- or Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai)

[kwaichang]

Most of those say Form like Hua Fist Form or style is the same , But the Mantis is a system and incorporates all that you stated. I know because I have taken other styles and 7 star is one of them. I dont get your gripe though , your post just reinforced SD philosophy not yours. KC

[David Jamieson]

wow, this thread does go on and on and on doesn't it... lol

[Shaolin Wookie]

•Chi Na-- you mean "Chin-Na/Qin-Na"?? This is a concept of joint/tendon locking and grabbing. There is not strictly speaking a style of kung fu called "Chin Na". There ARE however styles of kung fu which teach Chin-Na WITHIN the style(an example would be Eagle Claw kung fu-- or Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai)

LOL...are you saying that wrestling is not a style of fighting? It's the "other" half of every single fighting system in existence. If you're not punching and kicking, you're wrestling. Or, you're doing something else, like running away, standing around with your thumb....in a mantis claw, or you're just dancing

As for Anglicizing Chinese characters, are you really going to pimp the hyphen here? There's an official Pinyin? Is it taiji or tai chi? Is it pakua or bagua? Is it Beijing or Peiking? You're reaaaaallly stretching yourself, chief. And hell, I'm a college english teacher.

You've out-pedant-ed a grammar pedant.

Talk about pedantry.

[ghostexorcist]

As for Anglicizing Chinese characters, are you really going to pimp the hyphen here? There's an official Pinyin? Is it taiji or tai chi? Is it pakua or bagua? Is it Beijing or Peiking? You're reaaaaallly stretching yourself, chief. And hell, I'm a college english teacher.

I just thought you would like to know (unless those were rhetorical in nature) that pinyin does refer to the official romanization system used today. Regarding your questions, the official terms are Taiji, Bagua, and Beijing. The only reason that people say Taichi, Pakua, and Peking is because those are holdovers from the old Wade-Giles romanization system. Wade-Giles was used in both common and literary circles to refer to Chinese terms in America and other English speaking countries for a long time. Old habits die hard.

By the way, I consider wrestling to be the "original" martial art. All cultures all over the world mention some type of wrestling in their history records long before they had codified systems of boxing.

[LaterthanNever]

"I dont get your gripe though , your post just reinforced SD philosophy not yours. KC"

??? I did?

I reinforced SKT/SD inability to understand the difference between a style and a form.

Look..you studied 7 star mantis. You've got Bung Bo as a form(among others). But you don't(after learning that form FROM 7 star) then say "I teach the bung bo system of kung fu' do you?

[LaterthanNever]

"LOL...are you saying that wrestling is not a style of fighting?"

No..again..you have selective hearing and retrofit my answer to conform to your own ignorance of terms and established traditions.



"It's the "other" half of every single fighting system in existence."

Right. Sorry. I've got to update my video library to buy the Chen tai ji wrestling/ground fighting form. As well as the 108 Wooden Dummy wrestling moves that Ip Man taught..to Sin Kwang The only!!! :eek::rolleyes:





"If you're not punching and kicking, you're wrestling."

There are 4 forms of attack defense. Kicking, punching, wrestling and Qin-Na. Yes..wrestling(Shuai..hence the term Shuai Jiao) and Qin-Na are separate from eachother.




"Or, you're doing something else, like running away, standing around with your thumb....in a mantis claw, or you're just dancing"

Mantis claw involves more than just the thumb.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

As for Anglicizing Chinese characters, are you really going to pimp the hyphen here? There's an official Pinyin? Is it taiji or tai chi? Is it pakua or bagua? Is it Beijing or Peiking? You're reaaaaallly stretching yourself, chief. And hell, I'm a college english teacher.


Lighten up fella. If you had a drinking problem you don't call AAA(The emergency roadside service) and say "I drank a 5th of scotch last night..and the night before that..and the night before that too..I need help" do you? You don't go to an AA meeting(the self help group for recovering alcoholics) and say "Yeah..my Ford Taurus is stuck at the corner of 5th and Broadway can anyone give me a jump"..do you? So I'm not "pimping" anything. I'm bringing your information up to speed.

"You've out-pedant-ed a grammar pedant."

It's better than being flat out ignorant

"Talk about pedantry. "

See above

[LaterthanNever]

Talk about ironic here!!

" And hell, I'm a college english teacher."

If there was ANYONE who would be more of a stickler for proper terminology it would be you !

And being a man of higher academia..even if your degree was in English and not History--asian or other..you would see the value in fact checking your statements about SD w/ what is actually known.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Look at my avatar. Do you honestly think I believe the stories SD tells?

LOL.

And do you honestly think I believe Wang Lang fairy tales?

LOL.

What does English have to do with kung fu? I was making a joke.

A bad one, sure. As for "Englished" Chinese characters, is it gong fu or kung fu? Same difference. Is it labour or labor? Depends on which side of the Atlantic you're on. Those have nothing to do with anything except arbitrary convention.

[Shaolin Wookie]

SD teaches Jiang Rong Qiao (sp?) pakua.

It teaches Cheng Man Ching's Tai Chi 64 (with a minor difference in Hanging the Lotus/Cloud Hands).

It teaches at least two Jing Woo forms.

It has 7 star mantis.

It has some forms only ever seen in SD--the cranes, birds, Tai Peng, etc.

1/2 of SD is other styles and even then with variations.

I've done the homework. You've looked at a couple of websites. LOL....

[kwaichang]

Style ; method of performing something like style of Hair short or Long.
Form; a series of movements in a continuous method that portrays a method of attack and defense or philosophical ideal such as circular / Taoist, Budhist etc.
Method: Choy La Fut, Shaolin, Hung Gar , SD , etc, a complete system consisting of a # of forms and training to convey a style of attack or defense , or philosophy all encompasing. KC

[Lokhopkuen]

Has anyone posted any Shaolin Do forms or applications yet?
(((it's been a while since I chimed in here))):D

[Dragonzbane76]

(((it's been a while since I chimed in here)))

not missing much, same old same old.

[Lokhopkuen]

Lotta that going around yet it's subtly different:D
How're you DB76?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Has anyone posted any Shaolin Do forms or applications yet?
(((it's been a while since I chimed in here))):D

Applications:

Keep your hands up. I like one near the left side of the jaw, the other in jab range. Jab-jab-cross. If he jabs, cover the center, or, keep your range. Counter punch with combos. When you're in kicking range, keep your kicks low--aim for the inside thigh or outside thigh (perhaps the knee). Check your opponents' kicks, or trap them when you see his hip move. If he lunges with a jab/cross, sweep the inside of the front foot. Keep one hand near your left ear and use your elbow to cover the center. Knee him in the face. Use various SD/ST pivoting and stepping techniques to counter whatever your opponent throws in order to get inside and work the angles.

If he grabs you, or, more likely, if you grab him, lock in your hooks, fight for leverage, throw your knees, and drop his center every time he rears up for a knee. Grab and rip anything convenient if you're fightin for your life. Now practice Chin-na...SD/ST has 30 chin-na grabs, locks, throws, and escapes, which are only useful when you're in locking/wrestling position. Tai chi is also extremely helpful here, since once you lock him upit'll help you jockey for position. Now is the time to use tai chi/chin-na/pakua. Use them to isolate joints for breaking or to throw your opponent off balance.. One hold/break leads to another, and always protect your neck. Or, use the sweeps from the short-forms (roughly 4 go-to throws/sweeps min.).

Always stay lower than your opponent if you're wrestling. Counter his motions with whatever you've learned from SD/ST. And as always, if he grabs two wide, #1 punch, and dirty box your way back out. Never freeze up, always stay loose, and work every angle you can to create/take-away space.

Or....did you mean fantasy fighting in isolated units? Those aren't applications. They're just forms, even if they're two-man forms. Applications only work when you apply them, and when you apply them it's within the larger construct of actual fighting.

[Shaolin Wookie]

If you want some forms, there's 2 of them in my signature if you follow the youtube link.

Those are 2 years old, I think. I'm much better at them now (2 years does wonders). You can judge their quality yourself.

Not perfect. Definately not karate. There are other forms available online. But I can't speak for anyone else or their understanding. so judge me for yourself.

[kwaichang]

Wookie I thought your forms looked good, FYI KC:eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

wow, this thread does go on and on and on doesn't it... lol

ITS ALIVE!!!:eek:

[kwaichang]

On and On like the Great art of Shaolin Do !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!KC:cool:

[Judge Pen]

....and all hell breaks loose!

Funny for someone that wanted the thread locked, he sure has spent a lot of time debating on it.

Wookie, excellent discussions. Sean, always nice to hear you chime in. KC too.

Now back to the real world and real work. I wish I had time right now to dive in to some of these discussions myself. Maybe in a few weeks when things slow down on my end.

[Judge Pen]

Funny how quiet the SD haters get when someone gives them what they asked for. At the very least I would expect someone to tell Wookie that his karate looks too much like kungfu…did I get that backwards?:)

No the criticism will be that Wookie made his shaolin-do look too much like kung fu. :eek:

[sean_stonehart]

Actually I've been waiting on an email from KC... but no big deal either way.

[sean_stonehart]

No the criticism will be that Wookie made his shaolin-do look too much like kung fu. :eek:

Well he tried to sure. And he's a nice guy in person too.

But again my main contention is having X number of forms from Y styles is great. But if the core training style for Y isn't there, form X isn't going to look right. Theory/content/application is going to be dependant on whatever the Z base is... Z != Y. It can be made to work, but that doesn't it's being used the way it was designed or intended. I mean a hammer will open a beer bottle, but so will the twist top.

Brother Mullins... I will soon have my life back & wrested away from work. We need to pick a weekend for a visit with grilled meat, smokey bourbon & catching up.

[kwaichang]

Sorry man been busy JP will attest to that what was I supposed to send ////?????? I forgot . BTW hear about Smokin Joe Frazier another loss to the pugilistic world. KC

[sean_stonehart]

Sorry man been busy JP will attest to that what was I supposed to send ////?????? I forgot . BTW hear about Smokin Joe Frazier another loss to the pugilistic world. KC

You were gonna send me the translated list of the PM sets SD is supposed to contain. I can't translate them because it's not Mandarin or Cantonese that I'm familiar with.

Oh yeah... don't worry on the time. I have so little of it myself it's not funny. Just when you can.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Well he tried to sure. And he's a nice guy in person too.

But again my main contention is having X number of forms from Y styles is great. But if the core training style for Y isn't there, form X isn't going to look right. Theory/content/application is going to be dependant on whatever the Z base is... Z != Y. It can be made to work, but that doesn't it's being used the way it was designed or intended. I mean a hammer will open a beer bottle, but so will the twist top.

Brother Mullins... I will soon have my life back & wrested away from work. We need to pick a weekend for a visit with grilled meat, smokey bourbon & catching up.

While I agree with the sentiment, kung fu forms are pretty open ended no matter the style. I've seen traditionalists recommend strikes for movements that are clearly throws. SD does this too, and quite often. Even in the form I link to, I can see what I was thinking 2 years ago. There are a couple of movements I now understand as sweeps rather than steps, but not because I have traditional mantis. Sometimes insight just comes through.....kung fu osmosis, or something.

[Shaolin Wookie]

As for making SD forms look like kung fu....I still don't know what that means. I've rarely seen cookie cutter styles outside of Communist-inspired wushu (which I still maintain is impressive and athletic, even if it's almost 99% useless). Southern kung fu all looks like "crotty" to me. I know...I'm not envisioning the internal stuff. But to be honest, "internal" is often code for "some inside-my-head hocus pocus."

I have a good teacher, I learn from what he teaches. I wookie-ize everything, b/c someone else's notion of "martial" makes no sense until I can do it for myself on my own terms, even if it means making something "crotty-ish" or "kung-fu-ish." My kungfu-karate often looks like wrestling in its application.

[Judge Pen]

Brother Mullins... I will soon have my life back & wrested away from work. We need to pick a weekend for a visit with grilled meat, smokey bourbon & catching up.

I agree. Let's get through Thanksgiving and see what our schedules look like.

[Judge Pen]

While I agree with the sentiment, kung fu forms are pretty open ended no matter the style. I've seen traditionalists recommend strikes for movements that are clearly throws. SD does this too, and quite often. Even in the form I link to, I can see what I was thinking 2 years ago. There are a couple of movements I now understand as sweeps rather than steps, but not because I have traditional mantis. Sometimes insight just comes through.....kung fu osmosis, or something.

I think the beauty of forms is that, depending on the understanding and skill set of the practitioner, one man's strike is another man's throw. I don't think there is any one intended application. The application is limited only by the practitioner's insight and ability to make it applicable. This is often mis-characterized as "hidden applications", but really it is just skill. Nothing more.

[sean_stonehart]

I agree. Let's get through Thanksgiving and see what our schedules look like.

Done. That's around the time table I was thinking. Between the holidays-ish.

[shen ku]

where did everyone go?? oh i guess everyone decided to work on their skill and not their keyboards...lol

[sean_stonehart]

Naw man... I multitask... both at the same time if needed...

Hey... I've got some beef jerky & oatmeal if you're hungry...

[shen ku]

lol... well i guess you will understand my pain.. my daughte loves chinese and japenes food?? so i do have to go to them alot... they look at me really strange when all i order is a coke and set and watch her eat for and hour

[nautavac]

Does anyone know where one can go to find information on kicking. I am having trouble with foot placement and balance. For example, with a back kick one instance I can perform the the kick with no problems at all only my body placement seems off while I have balance, another instance I have no balance at all. This plays havoc with my short kata. By the way I recently passed my yellow belt test, and began the yellow belt curriculum; I just want some technical info on body mechanics for some of the basic moves that I just can't seem to get right every time. Does anyone know of anything because when I practice; an everyday thing now, I feel that I am just not getting it right. My instructor seems tells me that it will come in time and practice, and while I truly believe him, I was just hoping to get a few tips on perhaps a different way to twist or tweak my upper body that would allow for a more full extension of the kicking leg would help? I don't know I guess that is why I am posting on here now to see what everyone else might come up with.

[shen ku]

is it real or not? am i real???

[Scott R. Brown]

is it real or not? am i real???

NOT, "Is it real?"

"Is it FOR real??"

There is a difference!

Personally, I don't think YOU are real though!

[shen ku]

I think there for I am, lol

[Old Man]

hello.....:D

[OldandUsed]

Hello, back.

[Yao Sing]

900 pages, let's go!

Edit: Dang, not yet.

[sean_stonehart]

Can I get a 900??

****!!! I shoulda known!! Haven't won the lottery either...

[shen ku]

did i get it???

[shen ku]

i hope everyone had a great christmas and got a lot of new training equipment

[shen ku]

maybe little johnny got a new sword,

[shen ku]

maybe stoneheart got a gift card to a new chinese place.....

[shen ku]

900..... now it is done.... my keyboard kung fu is great

[sean_stonehart]

i hope everyone had a great christmas and got a lot of new training equipment

I got some sweats & stuff...

Gotta Kimber a few months back... +5 for damage... :D

[Yao Sing]

Lucky you - but do you know the apps for it? :D

[sean_stonehart]

maybe stoneheart got a gift card to a new chinese place.....

Naw man... I'm a fuddy-duddy... gimme Chinatown & I'm happy. Hong Kong styled Duck & Pork, Dim Sum, Dao Miew, Chow Mei Fun, etc... and I'm all sorts of happy. No gift card needed.

I did have some beef jerky a couple weeks ago in NC & thought of you living on it in passing...;)

[Old Man]

where do you hei hu black tiger come from?

[Old Man]

do you know the lineage?

[Old Man]

Did anyone ever disprove my late night theory about Shaolin-do having a circus background? Hope JP and everyone from SD I met are doing well.
Here's that old idea (took me all day to dig it out of the archives):
think Su Kong Tai Jin was in a circus. I think he studied at "the" Southern Shaolin Temple and when the temple was destroyed he went out into the world and made his way as best he could. Therefore, the photos were setups put together by the circus to publicize. I think Su Kong offered more than "just" wolf-boy appeal, I think he performed iron body feats (thus the pic of a bear biting his arm) and perhaps other "unbelievable" feats made possible by his previous training. I also think that GM Ie travelled with the same circus. Learning from Su Kong as they travelled. I have read that accompanying the letter promoting GM Sin to 10th GM Ie writes, "In the early time, I traveled everywhere in China to learn Martial arts, and had been up to North Korea. It has been 50 years since I moved down to south. I had been through a lot of tough times. But when I looked it back, I surely had a lot of unforgettable memory." Hmmm...travelling everywhere even to northern korea, learning martial arts. What better way to travel than in a circus...perhaps surrounded by folks of like mind?
Circus-type "masters" pop up several times in the SD literature.
One, in the SDA manual, speaks of "the strongest man in China" who GM Sin maintains was his hero and travelled with a circus. He died in London, exchanging blows with his English equivilent. The story stresses how he would tense before each blow, like our Three Unit Tension form...laughing at the fellow's attempts, until the Englishman caught him unaware. Next it points out how he struck and withdrew quickly, as we are supposed to do in our short forms. This was a man trained...at LEAST partially...in a style similar to our own.
Next was the story of GM Sin visiting Bali. GM Ie told him to visit an "old colleague" Ji Shou Hu. Here's a portion of that story:
"Upon arriving in Bali, Grandmaster Sin was happy to find that Ji Shou Hu was giving a public demonstration. It is well known that the chain whip is one of the most difficult Shaolin weapons to master. Ji Shou Hu's demonstration he went a step further than most. He preformed the chain whip swings while riding a bicycle. The crowd was amazed as he showed his complete mastery of the chain whip. This included "hopping" the bike up and spinning the whip underneath. For the finale he approached seven women holding Chinese coins between their thumb and forefinger. Remember that Chinese coins (yuan) have a whole in the center. Ji Shou Hu began snapping the whip toward the women with incredible speed. When he finally stopped, he held the whip up for the audience to see seven coins pierced and stuck on the pointed tip of his chain whip. At this point the audience went wild. The crowd then quieted as Ji Shou Hu raised the whip handle and extended his Ch'i power into the weapon. The Whip began to straighten out horizontally, one link at a time until finally the entire chain whip stood straight out from his hand. At his command the whip fell limp again at his side."
Is it hard to imagine such an act being worked up in a circus by a person who'd already mastered chainwhip in kung-fu training? Later in the story it is revealed that Ji Shou Hu was also a Master of our short forms.
Other masters of the school, alongside GM Ie, that I've heard mentioned include: Qui Gwong, Chi Gong, and Gi Shiao Fu. Note the similarity of the name Gi Shiao Fu to Ji Shou Hu...sorry, just noticed that myself. Maybe the Master eventually moved to teach at GM Ie's school. In any case, these small facts (perhaps a few others) have led me to my pet theory.
It's possible that this portion of SD's history isn't mentioned because some folks might feel it lacks a certain dignity. Su Kong and GM Ie living in a cave would certainly be more in keeping with the legends of old and their way of doing things...but I love this theory. Hope no one is insulted, and that at least someone finds this interesting.

you are so close to truth. so close.

[GeneChing]

And I'm not just referring to Shaolin at the Circus (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56809). Historically, CMA has been connected to performance for dynasties. In fact, that's one of the points that the latest scholarly work, Chinese Martial Arts by Peter Lorge (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62608), sheds a lot of light upon. There's no disgrace for CMA masters being connected to circus. In fact, there's a tradition of it.

[Judge Pen]

you are so close to truth. so close.

I like Radhnoti's theory. Old Man do you have some information that might shed some light on this?

[Radhnoti]

I like it too, it was interesting to read Gene's linked article. I hope everyone's training is going well. Have to admit that I'm not surprised to see that some things never change...and this thread has become a real monstrosity.

[Okami]

A quick search shows 6 years and 4 months since my last post.
Amazing that this thread is still going and going strong.

This thread deserves an award!

Good to see the "usual suspects" are still here.

[Old Man]

I like Radhnoti's theory. Old Man do you have some information that might shed some light on this?

i have all the history and fotos of your teachers teachers

[shen ku]

are these items things you could share with the group?

[Old Man]

i have shared some with one of your member already. i will tell you that you have a real good system from a long line of great master. your tree was verified at the temple by the old monk there and the current holder of the book. i will share with you sometime yes.

[shen ku]

well that is very interesting, all i truly know is how much i enjoy and have benefited from my taining in SD so thats all that is important to me but i do really enjoy seeing pics and history

[OldandUsed]

Studied SD from 1970 until 2002. Enjoyed the vast majority of the material and the people. Did not care for some of the drama and a few of the attitudes (ego). Would love to see some of the photos of any of the older masters and get information about them.

[nautavac]

Old Man, would it be possible for you to share this with us. I too am a beginner in the Shaolin Do system and would really love to learn this stuff.

[shen ku]

old man, I started in SD in 1985, started teaching in 1993, so it is something i care alot about, but i train and teach for myself, i enjoy what i do and feel that i have benefited alot from my years and have many students who feel that have from what i passed on to them. So if you ever wish to share what you have i would me honured to get the chance to see the info

[shen ku]

has any one on here had much luck or any good ideas with home made training aids?

[Shaolin Wookie]

3 toilet plungers hooked to bungees, the wooden poles covered with foam tubing to give them girth. [I can provide photos if desired]

Wrap the bungees around a heavy bag. Anchor the bungees around the heavy bag stand.

Makes a fantastic and affordable Mook Jong on which to work Mantis 7 Hands.

1 bungee has to have 2 plungers strung to it.
1 bungee has only 1 plunger attached to it.

If I want to work short form combinations on the bag quickly (throwing combinations), I just just the 1 plunger bungee.

This works like butter, even if you don't get the Mook Jong's resistance for nerve conditioning. No kidding....part of my daily routine when I wake up. Then I work on centerline covering and throwing straight jabs as fast as possible for 5 minutes. I also use White Monkey Steals the Peach punch combos. It also gives you a good feel for body position when throwing roundhouses and Thai-style leg kicks. You can work Ippons on this apparatus as well.

It's actually quite versatile, and only costs 20 bucks on top of the heavy bag stuff. Great for when you have trouble making it to the school for class (I'm strictly a weekend warrior with current job schedule).

Other than that--forms, forms, forms, and then repeat: forms.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Old Man, would it be possible for you to share this with us. I too am a beginner in the Shaolin Do system and would really love to learn this stuff.

I used to think that finding out more about the art's history would make more sense of the thing.

Seems like a dead-end.

The art is what it is, and you still have to make it work--even if you have the most respected teacher in existence. It is what it is, and it has to hurt somebody else.

That part is much simpler to comprehend and bring to fruition.

[bodhi warrior]

3 toilet plungers hooked to bungees, the wooden poles covered with foam tubing to give them girth. [I can provide photos if desired]

Wrap the bungees around a heavy bag. Anchor the bungees around the heavy bag stand.

Makes a fantastic and affordable Mook Jong on which to work Mantis 7 Hands.

1 bungee has to have 2 plungers strung to it.
1 bungee has only 1 plunger attached to it.

If I want to work short form combinations on the bag quickly (throwing combinations), I just just the 1 plunger bungee.

This works like butter, even if you don't get the Mook Jong's resistance for nerve conditioning. No kidding....part of my daily routine when I wake up. Then I work on centerline covering and throwing straight jabs as fast as possible for 5 minutes. I also use White Monkey Steals the Peach punch combos. It also gives you a good feel for body position when throwing roundhouses and Thai-style leg kicks. You can work Ippons on this apparatus as well.

It's actually quite versatile, and only costs 20 bucks on top of the heavy bag stuff. Great for when you have trouble making it to the school for class (I'm strictly a weekend warrior with current job schedule).

Other than that--forms, forms, forms, and then repeat: forms.

I'd like to see the pics. Sounds interesting.

[tattooedmonk]

has any one on here had much luck or any good ideas with home made training aids? Like what, specifically?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'd like to see the pics. Sounds interesting.

I'll put some up this weekend when I get a minute--I'm thinking about just making a webpage to show people how to make the rig. Lot's of people are looking for affordable training equipment, and this one is my personal favorite (a $700 mook jong is way out of my range, and impractical for where I live / what I do).

The cool thing about this rig is that it's unforgiving. The handles are long enough that you really have to pass the guard to get a good shot. If you bridge weakly, the plunger handles will jab you in incomfortable places (they'll prod you in the shoulder and collar-bone, jab you in your armpit [which sucks], or rub up against your ribs). In other words--you get hit, and somtimes it hurts. You really have to control your line and work angles by shifting your feet (like crane is supposed to do to cover angles). Develops better habits than a heavy bag by itself, since you can't ever throw a punch with combos without protecting center. I'm a fan of crane center-line protection for in close fighting (using elbows), and the rig works well for developing quick strike combos out of the block. And you always know there are multiple angles to protect.

I like to sit in a horse stance in the morning and take my mind off the pain by working combos on the single-arm.

1 thing I did notice over time--I know no Wing Chun (1 took something like 4 WC classes in my life), and no Mook Jong drills. My center line coverage now "looks" very Wing Chunnish. You have to keep your elbow low to keep the plunger rods from jabbing you, and the harder you hit them down or to the side, the harder they swing back to center, so you have to drop your elbow to cover more. You naturally develop strong centerline coverage. Plus, if your elbow is low on the bridge, you can cover the arm and strike without getting jabbed in the armpit. If you thus strike with your blocking arm first, using the block as a strike, then you you can throw mad combos. We all know this in SD through various tips/tricks, but this rig really develops the natural form for bridging and blocks-are-strikes coverage, making it 2nd nature.

[bodhi warrior]

I look forward to it.

[sha0lin1]

Shaolin Do has a new up and coming Grandmaster and she's a girl.

http://screen.yahoo.com/world-s-hairiest-girl-inspires-28406257.html

[Shaolin Wookie]

Cool. I'll sign her up for dance lessons, and before you know it, she'll be on the Superstars of Dance like these guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7QvK0h1z2c.

[bawang]

in my opinion, although your groups were definitely close knit and there were many friendships made and you guys had good times, it is still a lie.

and your good times made on that lie is perverse and evil.

in my opinion it is like a foul black fog that still lingers.

[Lokhopkuen]

in my opinion, although your groups were definitely close knit and there were many friendships made and you guys had good times, it is still a lie.

and your good times made on that lie is perverse and evil.

in my opinion it is like a foul black fog that still lingers.

Oh you mince words, tell them how you really feel:rolleyes:

[OldandUsed]

For what it is worth, it never really mattered to me if SD was a recent fabrication, traditional or centuries old. I enjoyed the workouts, the comaradre and the improved fitness. I had practiced more traditional and accepted arts before SD and have practiced more traditional and accepted arts since SD. SKT is not a God, he is human. I never set him up so he could fall, I simply accepted him as he was. I personally do not care one whit whether SD is accepted anywhere but in their own schools. I have participated in many open tournaments and have done well against the traditional arts. I am an experienced law enforcement officer that has used the techniques in the street and they worked just fine for me. Frankly, myself (and I expect many others), do not care one little bit whether the at large community accepts SD or not. I recall very early in my training, around 1970, when SKT stated that SD was about the largest independent MA community there was and he wanted to keep it that way. So, we are independent and we like it. We do not ask for or need your acceptance.

[bawang]

i was just pointing out that if you do something wrong and you are in ignorance, its forgivable. but if you know its wrong and you still do it, its an act of evil.

you are knowingly, actively mocking and parodying shaolin kung fu and have taken pleasure in it.

you dont care if its real or not because you have no real respect for traditional martial arts.

[OldandUsed]

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. You do not know me or many of the other SD practicioners I have met, I suspect. SD is not my only art, nor is it my first art. I have practiced and continue to practice other, more traditional and established arts, with unquestioned heritage. SD was on campus where I attended college and I enjoyed it. There were no other options and I enjoyed the people, so I continued after I left college. I eventually moved on to other arts, but did not belittle SD because it had a cloudy heritage. Just because something or someone does not conform to YOUR expectation, does not make them or it a bad thing. Just not in line with what you expect. In my world, that is called being closed or narrow minded. Judgemental tendancies cannot lead a person to enlightenment, regardless of how loud they shout.

[bawang]

hello. you dont care if its real or not because it made you feel good. this is not surprising because the general american attitude is your feelings are the most important things in the world.

[OldandUsed]

hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! Very mature, open-minded and non-judgemental statement. Please stay around, you brighten up the place.

[bawang]

hi. a gay person doesnt think taking it up the ass is wrong, but a christian might have very different opinions.

i am just giving you a different perspective from a traditional viewpoint.