Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kwaichang]

We have discussed that already SR real or not blah blah blah an app is an app all techniques can have a use. KC

[MasterKiller]

IF your system was legit and the forms developed by someone with correct understanding of the historical context of forms, you would realize that not EVERY move has a combat application in a form ( though you can most certainly make one have it if you want to).
Forms were created not only to "catalog" techniques and principles but also for physical exercises.
A move like the "kicking of the hand" was quite probably just that, a part of the form that was used for displaying/testing physical prowess ( in this case flexibility).

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar...

[Judge Pen]

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar...

Thank you Freud.

[Judge Pen]

What would be interesting now is how all of this affects SD in the future. Obviously the internet debate on forums like this has not detrimentally affected SD. How does this deposition and the fall-out from it affect SD in the future?

Obviously Sin The has a significant amount of training. He is a talented martial artist who has remained in very good shape. Anyone that has seen him conduct a seminar can tell you he is in very good shape for a man his age. The problem is that no one knows what they can believe and what is made up. If the mystique of "traditional shaolin" has been blown directly by Sin The, then why not market the art more honestly? Why not talk about what forms were created and what forms were taught in Indonesia (and by whom)?

Apparently all that is fantasy, however, because Master Leonard's letter just circled the wagons and passed the kool-aide.

[Old Noob]

Apparently all that is fantasy, however, because Master Leonard's letter just circled the wagons and passed the kool-aide.

Exactly! There was an opportunity to step back and ensure that the product was, to borrow some business lingo, more forthrightly branded and marketed without, in my opinion, doing any more damage than was done by the public availibility of the deposition itself. But circling the wagons and then calling people who like to be informed about what they choose to spend their money on ne'er-do-wells or busybodys is just insulting.

I agree with you that, if the lower belt stuff is all made up, its very well designed and builds on itself very nicely. Seems to me you could positively market that in an honest way.

[Lucas]

if you look at xiaohongquan, the first slap kick for an example, the way the the kick slaps the hand is done with a slight outward crescent. in this particular example, you actually are extending your self to grab your opponent. stabilization and follow through with this example. you are also setting yourself up to clinch/grapple/throw/knee immediatly upon follow up from the kick. however you also have to think of the source of the material. what kind of fail shaolin devoted practitioner doesnt have the flexability for that?

in regards to front snap kicks slapping the hand, i would agree that its a type of cross training. if you can do a high front snap kick and easily kick your hand without strain, that will ensure you have a greater ability for stability and foundation during a standard front kick by consistantly training that flexability and maneuverability. also, if your arent a total puss, you will kick the sh!t outa your hand every time to help toughen em up. kungfu is all about multi tasking.

[Leto]

also, if your arent a total puss, you will kick the sh!t outa your hand every time to help toughen em up. kungfu is all about multi tasking.

LOL. That will be my instruction to new students. "Kick the sh!t outta your hand! Just kick it! Do it! Don't be a puss!"

[sha0lin1]

if you look at xiaohongquan, the first slap kick for an example, the way the the kick slaps the hand is done with a slight outward crescent. in this particular example, you actually are extending your self to grab your opponent. stabilization and follow through with this example. you are also setting yourself up to clinch/grapple/throw/knee immediatly upon follow up from the kick. however you also have to think of the source of the material. what kind of fail shaolin devoted practitioner doesnt have the flexability for that?

in regards to front snap kicks slapping the hand, i would agree that its a type of cross training. if you can do a high front snap kick and easily kick your hand without strain, that will ensure you have a greater ability for stability and foundation during a standard front kick by consistantly training that flexability and maneuverability. also, if your arent a total puss, you will kick the sh!t outa your hand every time to help toughen em up. kungfu is all about multi tasking.

The two techniques in Xiao Hong Quan that you speak of are both solid applications, as for the front kick, the applications is a strike to the eyes with the hand while simuletaneously kicking the groin, misdirection, doing two things at the same time. The hand is kicked for effect, making a cool sound, conditioning the hand etc. Just as RDH said earlier. The hope is that the opponent can block at best one but the other will get through, whichever lands first. You are not really supposed to slap the foot the hand shoots out delivering a strike and the kick meets it.

[Judge Pen]

The two techniques in Xiao Hong Quan that you speak of are both solid applications, as for the front kick, the applications is a strike to the eyes with the hand while simuletaneously kicking the groin, misdirection, doing two things at the same time. The hand is kicked for effect, making a cool sound, conditioning the hand etc. Just as RDH said earlier. The hope is that the opponent can block at best one but the other will get through, whichever lands first. You are not really supposed to slap the foot the hand shoots out delivering a strike and the kick meets it.

In our fabricated short forms the "hit kick" is a fundamental technique for the reasons you mention above (which are excellent applications), but when we do those forms, we typically do not kick the hand unless the kick is a straight leg front kick or an inside or outside cresent kick. I still believe the kicking the hand is more for conditioning, flexibility, focus and performance affect. With the application if it is the simultaneous strike, then kicking the hand is not necessary. If it is "pulling the head toward the hand" then the form should have the motion of also moving the hand toward the foot. One of the application exceptions I can think of right now is our short form #s 13 and 14 which include a block and then kicking the hand that you have just blocked with. But here the hand isn't high above your head and the application is to disarm or disable the imagined opponents attacking limb.

[MasterKiller]

but when we do those forms, we typically do not kick the hand unless the kick is a straight leg front kick or an inside or outside cresent kick. I still believe the kicking the hand is more for conditioning, flexibility, focus and performance affect. With the application if it is the simultaneous strike, then kicking the hand is not necessary. If it is "pulling the head toward the hand" then the form should have the motion of also moving the hand toward the foot.

JP just invented the correct and passed it off as an ancient secret. ;)

[MasterKiller]

Exactly! There was an opportunity to step back and ensure that the product was, to borrow some business lingo, more forthrightly branded and marketed without, in my opinion, doing any more damage than was done by the public availibility of the deposition itself. But circling the wagons and then calling people who like to be informed about what they choose to spend their money on ne'er-do-wells or busybodys is just insulting..

Leonard =

http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/meh.ro6646.jpg

[Judge Pen]

Leonard =

http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/meh.ro6646.jpg

That picture is so horrible and funny at the same time.

[Judge Pen]

JP just invented the correct and passed it off as an ancient secret. ;)

As long as its correct. :cool:

[Royal Dragon]

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar...

Yes, but even then, it can be named Monica.

[nautavac]

I myself have read the deposition and followed all of the comments on this board.
I do not know GM Sin personally, nor have I met him. What I do know is that I have nothing but the utmost respect and trust in my Master, as well as his Master. Regardless of what the comments about SD are (and there are many), I know that my daughter and I have only just started in it; of course this is the first formal instruction (besides our instruction in boxing, and my brief run in the amateur boxing circuit) we have had in any martial art, and both of us have noticed a big difference in our level of conditioning as well as our ability to defend ourselves when we spar together. The foundational techniques that we have been taught and guided in have proved phenomenal so far, and through it all our teacher (Master) has had the patience to correct many of our mistakes in technique and application. We will continue to train in SD, and if we can continue to improve we just might be able prove ourselves worthy of the level of instruction and dedication that our teacher provides us. My daughter and I can only hope to emulate our Master, given that we remain as dedicated to him as he is to teaching us.

[tattooedmonk]

Well said, keep up your training!

[Darthlawyer]

I myself have read the deposition and followed all of the comments on this board.
I do not know GM Sin personally, nor have I met him. What I do know is that I have nothing but the utmost respect and trust in my Master, as well as his Master. Regardless of what the comments about SD are (and there are many), I know that my daughter and I have only just started in it; of course this is the first formal instruction (besides our instruction in boxing, and my brief run in the amateur boxing circuit) we have had in any martial art, and both of us have noticed a big difference in our level of conditioning as well as our ability to defend ourselves when we spar together. The foundational techniques that we have been taught and guided in have proved phenomenal so far, and through it all our teacher (Master) has had the patience to correct many of our mistakes in technique and application. We will continue to train in SD, and if we can continue to improve we just might be able prove ourselves worthy of the level of instruction and dedication that our teacher provides us. My daughter and I can only hope to emulate our Master, given that we remain as dedicated to him as he is to teaching us.

You hope that you and your daughter will emulate someone who has devotion to a fraud? And you hope to learn a system that will sue you if you try to teach what you learned without their consent? If you have developed skill and endurance through training, that's nice, but what does it have to do with Sin? If you train you get better. It has nothing to do with a copywritten set of forms.

[tattooedmonk]

the problem here is that Sin The created a system based on Shaolin Kung Fu and structured and simplified the basic training to achieve desired results and didnt tell everyone what part of it he created?? Did everyone really believe that this was all ancient material?

Cmon?

Really?


If Sin The was/ is a master of Shaolin Kung fu, earning rank from Ie chang ming , then doesnt that mean that he should/ could be able to make and create like the masters of old?

Now Sin The is a fraud and made up everything? I mean all the **** is made up anyway. What , just because you didnt know, or didnt ask or your teacher didnt tell you or even worse you assumed , now Sin The is a liar and a fraud?

Since my first year I knew what was made by Sin the and what wasn't. If you ask and do a little research...

I may no longer be in the system but I know a few people that are, not everything is as it appears to be. I will let you guys figure that out on your own.:D

Also I believe its possible that the original Indonesian school may have had these masters with these teachings, but I also believe it is quite possible he didnt learn it all there so he was trying to recreate it here.....

Maybe:D:eek:

[tattooedmonk]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWeC2i42SZk&list=UUpG5V9YlQ3BXuwrRFv9cPqg&index=1&feature=plcp

[Judge Pen]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWeC2i42SZk&list=UUpG5V9YlQ3BXuwrRFv9cPqg&index=1&feature=plcp

Are do-rags and sleevless lightning tees going to replace gis? :D I saw that they were hosting a kung tao seminar. I wonder if some schools are going to promote/lay claim to that heritage. I wonder how Sin The feels about that?

[tattooedmonk]

Are do-rags and sleevless lightning tees going to replace gis? :D I saw that they were hosting a kung tao seminar. I wonder if some schools are going to promote/lay claim to that heritage. I wonder how Sin The feels about that?Hilarious, right? Looked like it was really informative and a lot of fun. To be honest, here in Cali he always encourage us to have people from other arts come in and share what they knew. Like Shaolin of old . As a matter of fact he brought in some old jkd june fan kung fu. We used have someone come in from all over SFV for years coming to our school. It was the way I have always worked .:D
Ben Mullins? Nice to meet you , Mark Wright.

[Leto]

the problem here is that Sin The created a system based on Shaolin Kung Fu and structured and simplified the basic training to achieve desired results and didnt tell everyone what part of it he created?? Did everyone really believe that this was all ancient material?

Cmon?

Really?


If Sin The was/ is a master of Shaolin Kung fu, earning rank from Ie chang ming , then doesnt that mean that he should/ could be able to make and create like the masters of old?

Now Sin The is a fraud and made up everything? I mean all the **** is made up anyway. What , just because you didnt know, or didnt ask or your teacher didnt tell you or even worse you assumed , now Sin The is a liar and a fraud?

Since my first year I knew what was made by Sin the and what wasn't. If you ask and do a little research...



You mean, did everyone believe the advertising, and what the elder masters had been saying explicitly? Yes, it seems many people did, whether it was reasonable to believe them or not. When you put your trust in a teacher/authority figure, you want to assume they are not misleading you, so immediately being suspicious of all information they give you is not most people's first response. And who do you ask, when your teacher doesn't know anything, and the elder masters do nothing but tell legends about ancient monks? If you aren't privileged to know Sin The personally and live in the same town as him, how would a person find out anything? Why should anyone have to ask? Learning the origin and history of whatever you're practicing should be information explicitly given, to whatever degree that information is known. If a form is one invented by the founder of the system, that should be revealed at the time you are learning it, the information possibly to be on the quiz/test many systems have you take along with promotions. Maybe my expectations about this are unreasonable, having come from an Okinawan style where we had a book describing whatever was known about the origins of each kata. The kata that were invented by the style founder and his contemporaries were represented as such.
It doesn't make the material worthless, it doesn't make it "fake" martial arts. It does make a bad impression when you either lie about or are ignorant about the material you are teaching. It is kind of a big deal for many people to hear that Sin The invented much of the material "from scratch"(in his words) which they were told was traditional shaolin martial arts. Maybe that isn't entirely true, maybe he just restructured traditional forms and/or put traditional techniques into new arrangements (that's what I think). But in that case, he lied under oath, and that doesn't look good either. One way or the other, lies have been told, by him and/or his senior students, if only lies of omission.
I'm not saying Sin The is a terrible human being, I don't know him or have enough information. But I wouldn't trust anything he says anymore regarding the martial arts he has taught, much less anything any of his senior students say. If I were still a member of CSC or shaolin do at this point, I would have serious misgivings about continuing. At the very least, I would start questioning everything I had been told up to that point, and expect to get full discolusure on anything I was subsequently taught. And I would share any information I found with everyone around me, whether it came from the masters or not.

[tattooedmonk]

I totally agree with what you have said here. Plain and simple , it was a marketing strategy that got out of control. The origins of the art could be explained and defined very easily with minimal damage , I don't understand why they don't . I don't see anything wrong With sin the creating his own system, many teachers have. But to not fully disclose and lie about what it is that's wrong. I only hold sin the responsible for letting things get out of control and not stepping in right away to clear things up. Personally I think it was the affect it had on his ego that stopped him from doing do.

[kungfujunky]

Senior Master Gary Grooms, nationally renowned for his internal martial arts skills, will be coming to Denver Aug 17-19th to teach the fundamentals and intent of Tai Chi, Ba Gua and Hsing I. Please contact me for details. ALL martial artists are welcome. 2 full days of training with an amazing martial artist who has dedicated over 30 years to Kung Fu! Let your friends know! Testing for those that are ready is also available!

[bodhi warrior]

I don't know if I'd consider him nationally renowned. The only person I've heard talk of his skills is Gary Grooms himself.

[tattooedmonk]

I wonder how the Soards feel about this...!?Does this violate any regional restrictions for establishing competing schools?

Hey bodhi... Even if that's the case , plain and simple, it's a good marketing strategy. If people want to see whether he has any skill or not, they can go talk to his senior students or Master Grooms himself.

I am sure they will be more than happy to demonstrate their skills.

If they like what they see, they will sign up. if not they leave, either way problem solved.

If I could have my choice to study with anyone,I would put him in the top three. I think he should be more well known inside and outside SD/ST/CSC .

With me you have to sign the waiver and pay for a months dues. :p

[bodhi warrior]

Agreed. It would be an opportunity to see what he has.

If I had to pick the top 3 guys I'd like to study some with, it'd be Eric Smith, Gary Mullins, Bob Green.

[kungfujunky]

Come by and check him out!

And Bodhi I like your list. Although I would go for Nance over Smith myself.

[kungfujunky]

BTW Tattooedmonk....should I put you down? I know your interested!

[tattooedmonk]

BTW Tattooedmonk....should I put you down? I know your interested!i am planning on it!:D

[shen ku]

no disrespect to any of the masters but there is a long list of what i call "old school master" that i would love to get a little time with ,, bill, eric, frank, gary, garry, tim, bob, mike, gordan, james, tony, john... I have had my a$$ handed to me by more then one of those on this list and always learned something from it,, even if it was to never do that again..lol

[Judge Pen]

Come by and check him out!

And Bodhi I like your list. Although I would go for Nance over Smith myself.

I took a seminar with both Grooms and Nance and I was very impressed with Nance. Master Garry and his sons were my primary teacher so I felt like I received good practical instruction. I would like to have had the opportunity to train with Master Green.

[Shaolin Wookie]

If I were still a member of CSC or shaolin do at this point, I would have serious misgivings about continuing. At the very least, I would start questioning everything I had been told up to that point, and expect to get full discolusure on anything I was subsequently taught. And I would share any information I found with everyone around me, whether it came from the masters or not.

This is good advice in general. I think one of the main issues is that people have preconceived notions of what asian martial arts should be like. Many students want to kowtow to received knowledge (a bit like colleges in that way), and they want an intellectual brandname/heritage. There should be a patrilineal line of descent, certain customs/rituals, etc.

I've always been a rationalist with a healthy skeptical streak, so I questioned the lineage pretty ****ed quickly. I think most people do, but it's like anything else. Most people at the schools don't really care, and they get defensive because they do not know anything more than what they've been told by senior guys. They therefore don't want to question it when pressed to do so, and they soon become set in their opinions--everyone else must be wrong.

People who get down on teh history neglect the art because they lose confidence in it. I've been around the MA block, so to speak, and I can make the chin-na work standing or on the ground, I can throw, sweep, etc. pretty well, and I can hit hard. My teacher taught these well, but I lost confidence in the techniques a couple of years in (though never losing confidence in the teacher). I can make this art work, but there was a time a couple of years ago where I lost confidence in the art b/c of the retarded advertising campaign. I wanted to feel proud about the art, but it's hard to do that when you disagree about history, etc. We do Jiang style bagua, Cheng Man Ching's modified Tai Chi 64 (originated in Taiwan), etc. When you do the research and correctly identify things for research/background purposes, you just want to be able to talk freely about it. Nowadays, I do, come hell or highwater, raised eyebrows or rolling eyes.

Anyways, I've been putting together a little online resource for the "alternative" history of SD---from Chung Yen Shaolin (Central Plains Wushu) on. It talks about the many different teachers who taught there, GM Ie's opium habit/rehab (his buddies got him back into training to help him kick the habit), and the basic structure of Chung Yen. It also provides background info (Jiang/Cheng Man Ching, Jie Chien [from Jing Woo], Lian Wu Zhang [Jing Woo, too]) for many of the forms. It's not derogatory or "whistleblower" in nature, and I certainly do not have all the information that exists. It's what I've gotten from 4 years of research. So far, it's pretty respectful in all ways, as I see it. It just condenses what we know is true, and leaves out the mythical stuff that's on every SD website.

As a researcher, essayist, and college professor, I hope it'll help a discussion get started about the more practical origins of SD's curriculum. Maybe it'll help those interested in a practical history of what they're doing. I've never been a fan of dogmas.

[Shaolin Wookie]

But anyways, I do love the art as I practice it. I don't really agree with the way that many other people practice it, as if one interpretation of movements were the ONLY correct interpretation. There are tons of sweeps and throws in the art that others--who either cannot sweep, throw, or are terrified of going to the ground--transform into "pluck his jabbing arm out of the air and break" techniques, or else travesty as "kicks."

The art has to work for you, and it certainly can. For the past couple of years I've told every student--practice the hell out of the techniques, ippons [slightly modified], and chin-na. The art will make sense after that. Love/hate SD, the basic curriculum is very strong if you teach it right with plenty of contact and drilling sweeps, throws, and basic holds/wrestling.

[OldandUsed]

Absolutely agree!

[RJ797]

The best combination of the senior guys to work with is: Mullins, Grooms and Nance.

Mullins does the best job of communicating the kung-fu basics. His students on average do the best kicks, stances and forms.

Grooms does his internal entirely different than what you see in Denver, Kentucky or Texas. When he explains why to do something a particular way he does it with straight forward physics and not a bunch of chi mumbo jumbo.

Nance has an uncanny grasp of fighting skills. It doesn't seem to matter the range or the method, he effortlessly destroys you. If you want to understand how to fight - he is the guy.

I would be very happy if my kung fu looked like Mullins, my Tai Chi looked like Grooms and I could fight like Nance.

[tattooedmonk]

Guess thats why they work together. Like three sides to triangle.... like the tip of an arrow pointing the way...:D

[tattooedmonk]

But anyways, I do love the art as I practice it. I don't really agree with the way that many other people practice it, as if one interpretation of movements were the ONLY correct interpretation. There are tons of sweeps and throws in the art that others--who either cannot sweep, throw, or are terrified of going to the ground--transform into "pluck his jabbing arm out of the air and break" techniques, or else travesty as "kicks."

The art has to work for you, and it certainly can. For the past couple of years I've told every student--practice the hell out of the techniques, ippons [slightly modified], and chin-na. The art will make sense after that. Love/hate SD, the basic curriculum is very strong if you teach it right with plenty of contact and drilling sweeps, throws, and basic holds/wrestling.
I like the way you think.
:)

[Shaolin Wookie]

This is definitely parallel to our Lian Wu Zhang (2nd China Hand).

Now, the performance style is less linear than ours is, but the form is move for move the same for the first couple of lines. There are some variations in the motions (we do a 360 smash where he simply rotates in the first line), and some of the takedowns are varied somewhat. We have more elbows combined with sweeps, where they really push downward to assist the sweep. Also, where he does a little hibbidy-hop motion when reversing directions, we have the running front sweep and the airborne transition to a backsweep. But the form is there in its essence and sequence.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXuDOi65zR4

I've noticed in many Lian Wu Zhang performances a lot of tiger palm strikes, and that's probably why SD ended up lumping them into the Tiger style. Still, the China Hands are certainly NOT tiger forms. Though Jeet Quan (Jie Chien) is a Jingwoo form, I'm waiting on some more background info from some Lian Wu Zhang practitioners concerning the origins of the form. I wonder if the two are even linked at all. Some call Lian Wu Zhang "6 Harmonies Palm."

You can see the likeness a little more clearly here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oswrw7kICC8

[themeecer]

This is definitely parallel to our Lian Wu Zhang (2nd China Hand).

Now, the performance style is less linear than ours is, but the form is move for move the same for the first couple of lines. There are some variations in the motions (we do a 360 smash where he simply rotates in the first line), and some of the takedowns are varied somewhat. We have more elbows combined with sweeps, where they really push downward to assist the sweep. Also, where he does a little hibbidy-hop motion when reversing directions, we have the running front sweep and the airborne transition to a backsweep. But the form is there in its essence and sequence.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXuDOi65zR4

I've noticed in many Lian Wu Zhang performances a lot of tiger palm strikes, and that's probably why SD ended up lumping them into the Tiger style. Still, the China Hands are certainly NOT tiger forms. Though Jeet Quan (Jie Chien) is a Jingwoo form, I'm waiting on some more background info from some Lian Wu Zhang practitioners concerning the origins of the form. I wonder if the two are even linked at all. Some call Lian Wu Zhang "6 Harmonies Palm."

You can see the likeness a little more clearly here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oswrw7kICC8

I can see some similarities- in the beginning. Some of it is quite a stretch. I have no elbows with the sweeps in this form when I teach it. I am not sure what you are referring to.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I can see some similarities- in the beginning. Some of it is quite a stretch. I have no elbows with the sweeps in this form when I teach it. I am not sure what you are referring to.

LOL....there's a difference between Atlanta and elsewhere.:D

Our form follows this pattern. The "stretch" that I see in likening the two is really a matter of slightly different techniques, but the same in spirit.

as for elbows.....After the opening sequence and the first right-hand palm strike, we have a kind of circular pulling motion which lands in a horse stance. We then backsweep from the horse stance and elbow, whereas this guy pushes his hand towards the ground.

We also elbow on the backsweep when the form changes directions. We pull into cat stances w/ tiger claws (both hands), then snap kick. We then take a running step forward to frontsweep, launch into a jump (which feels like a double front snap kick), but then pulls into a backsweep. We throw the elbow as we backsweep, spotting the right fist with the left palm.

I suppose it's impossible to compare forms if you and I do them completely differently. LOL....I've had the pleasure to train with SD guys from different states, and I've rarely seen any perfect equivalence. All I know is that Atlanta's version matches this one pretty closely.

[sean_stonehart]

This is definitely parallel to our Lian Wu Zhang (2nd China Hand).

Now, the performance style is less linear than ours is, but the form is move for move the same for the first couple of lines. There are some variations in the motions (we do a 360 smash where he simply rotates in the first line), and some of the takedowns are varied somewhat. We have more elbows combined with sweeps, where they really push downward to assist the sweep. Also, where he does a little hibbidy-hop motion when reversing directions, we have the running front sweep and the airborne transition to a backsweep. But the form is there in its essence and sequence.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXuDOi65zR4


It's close in flavor. I'll stop there.



I've noticed in many Lian Wu Zhang performances a lot of tiger palm strikes, and that's probably why SD ended up lumping them into the Tiger style. Still, the China Hands are certainly NOT tiger forms. Though Jeet Quan (Jie Chien) is a Jingwoo form, I'm waiting on some more background info from some Lian Wu Zhang practitioners concerning the origins of the form. I wonder if the two are even linked at all. Some call Lian Wu Zhang "6 Harmonies Palm."

You can see the likeness a little more clearly here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oswrw7kICC8

Not so much in my experience. Six Harmonies is Six Harmonies. There's not going to be a name swap, which carries technical descriptions of what a thing is, between 5 Continuous Palm & 6 Harmonies Palm. That's not going to work that way.

This is Jeet Kuen (Jie Quan). It's a bit wu-shu-y in its performance, but I think the Malaysia Chin Wu is wushu leaning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Vw4d4pw-E

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's close in flavor. I'll stop there.




LOL...and I should, too. What I was getting at is that the forms teach the same techniques. I'm not a "God's-in-the-form-itself" kind of guy. The techniques are exactly parallel. A series of sweeps in nearly the same sequence, with a few takedowns.

Haven't gotten much feedback from practitioners on the origins of the form, however. Jingwoo practitioners just keep telling me that Jeet Kuen originated (I'd have to find my notes to find the guys name) in Jingwoo before WWII, but Lian Wu Zhang guys don't know much beyond who practised the form (Su Ke Gang, etc.). There's a lot of material in SD that was very popular in Taiwan.'

Not that it means much. I'm sure Coke is popular there, too.

[sean_stonehart]

LOL...and I should, too. What I was getting at is that the forms teach the same techniques. I'm not a "God's-in-the-form-itself" kind of guy. The techniques are exactly parallel. A series of sweeps in nearly the same sequence, with a few takedowns.

Understand.



Haven't gotten much feedback from practitioners on the origins of the form, however. Jingwoo practitioners just keep telling me that Jeet Kuen originated (I'd have to find my notes to find the guys name) in Jingwoo before WWII, but Lian Wu Zhang guys don't know much beyond who practised the form (Su Ke Gang, etc.). There's a lot of material in SD that was very popular in Taiwan.'

PM...



Not that it means much. I'm sure Coke is popular there, too.

I think Taiwan's a Pepsi place & the PRC is a Coke place. That's crux of the problem right there.

One side screams "Less Filling!" and the other screams "Tastes Great!" ...

[bodhi warrior]

This is good advice in general. I think one of the main issues is that people have preconceived notions of what asian martial arts should be like. Many students want to kowtow to received knowledge (a bit like colleges in that way), and they want an intellectual brandname/heritage. There should be a patrilineal line of descent, certain customs/rituals, etc.

I've always been a rationalist with a healthy skeptical streak, so I questioned the lineage pretty ****ed quickly. I think most people do, but it's like anything else. Most people at the schools don't really care, and they get defensive because they do not know anything more than what they've been told by senior guys. They therefore don't want to question it when pressed to do so, and they soon become set in their opinions--everyone else must be wrong.

People who get down on teh history neglect the art because they lose confidence in it. I've been around the MA block, so to speak, and I can make the chin-na work standing or on the ground, I can throw, sweep, etc. pretty well, and I can hit hard. My teacher taught these well, but I lost confidence in the techniques a couple of years in (though never losing confidence in the teacher). I can make this art work, but there was a time a couple of years ago where I lost confidence in the art b/c of the retarded advertising campaign. I wanted to feel proud about the art, but it's hard to do that when you disagree about history, etc. We do Jiang style bagua, Cheng Man Ching's modified Tai Chi 64 (originated in Taiwan), etc. When you do the research and correctly identify things for research/background purposes, you just want to be able to talk freely about it. Nowadays, I do, come hell or highwater, raised eyebrows or rolling eyes.

Anyways, I've been putting together a little online resource for the "alternative" history of SD---from Chung Yen Shaolin (Central Plains Wushu) on. It talks about the many different teachers who taught there, GM Ie's opium habit/rehab (his buddies got him back into training to help him kick the habit), and the basic structure of Chung Yen. It also provides background info (Jiang/Cheng Man Ching, Jie Chien [from Jing Woo], Lian Wu Zhang [Jing Woo, too]) for many of the forms. It's not derogatory or "whistleblower" in nature, and I certainly do not have all the information that exists. It's what I've gotten from 4 years of research. So far, it's pretty respectful in all ways, as I see it. It just condenses what we know is true, and leaves out the mythical stuff that's on every SD website.

As a researcher, essayist, and college professor, I hope it'll help a discussion get started about the more practical origins of SD's curriculum. Maybe it'll help those interested in a practical history of what they're doing. I've never been a fan of dogmas.


What's the address to your site?

[Judge Pen]

But wait, that was one of the forms that Sin The said, under oath, that he fabricated? I'm so confused....

[hansolo]

this is one long thread :eek:

[Shaolin Wookie]

If we deleted all the posts like the one that you just posted, I'm sure it would only be 1/2 as long.;)

[kungfujunky]

i am planning on it!:D

Cost is 100.00 for all 3 classes. 40.00 per style if you only want to see a specific one.

Spread the word!

[tattooedmonk]

Can you give Us a break down of what the classes will cover? And why in Denver? Central location?

[kungfujunky]

Master Grooms will be teaching these first two palm changes and using
movements from those changes to illustrate the 64 rules of Ba Gua.
The 64 rules discuss the principles that define Ba Gua as a martial
art and physical practice, and developing a deeper knowledge of how
they apply directly to the movements of the form will add depth to your
understanding of the style.

The five roads are the essential foundation of this explosive and dynamic internal martial art. Master Grooms has spent years developing the fa jing power that
Xing Yi is famous for. Throughout the afternoon he will be working
with you on developing a detailed understanding of the distinctive
San Ti stance, issuing power internally and how to correctly train
the five roads of Xing Yi.

Yang style Taiji is a one of Master Grooms true specialties, and he
has attained a deep understanding of the movements and principles
through decades of focused practice with this form. Master Grooms will be teaching Yang style form with an emphasis on developing functional and efficient
body alignment. This will be further refined through his explanation
of Taiji principles and the combat applications found within the
movements of the Yang Taiji form.

[tattooedmonk]

Cool, are You gonna be there? I am.:)

[kungfujunky]

I will! Contact me (via messaging) for information and payment details!

[kungfujunky]

Just an update. The seminar is in Castle Rock, CO ( a little south of Denver).

I want to make something clear:

I did not "break away" from the Soards. I quit taking classes because I felt the instruction was based more on new material then on the mechanics and focus of the specific styles. I then decided to teach a combination of Indonesian and Chinese Kung Fu. Part of that training includes, Tai Chi, Pa Kua and Hsing Ie which I have made extensive effort to learn correctly from respected masters. So I went to Atlanta and Florida to learn them properly. I am not teaching those arts the "Shaolin-Do Way" I am trying to teach them the mechanically correct way - hence I have asked Master Gary to come out and share his insights with anyone who might be interested in them!

[bodhi warrior]

Just an update. The seminar is in Castle Rock, CO ( a little south of Denver).

I want to make something clear:

I did not "break away" from the Soards. I quit taking classes because I felt the instruction was based more on new material then on the mechanics and focus of the specific styles. I then decided to teach a combination of Indonesian and Chinese Kung Fu. Part of that training includes, Tai Chi, Pa Kua and Hsing Ie which I have made extensive effort to learn correctly from respected masters. So I went to Atlanta and Florida to learn them properly. I am not teaching those arts the "Shaolin-Do Way" I am trying to teach them the mechanically correct way - hence I have asked Master Gary to come out and share his insights with anyone who might be interested in them!

Just curious were the masters you refined your technique with from shaolin do?

[kungfujunky]

nope.

I have trained with respected masters in and out of SD. I do not have blinders on.

In all honesty my focus has been on the martial applications in the styles. So proper body mechanics, alignment and intent drive a lot of what I am doing.

[tattooedmonk]

Looking forward to it!:D

[bodhi warrior]

Do have experience with grooms? If so just curious how he stacks up with the other masters outside of sd.

[kungfujunky]

In my experience he is very skilled at finding the proper alignment and optimal positioning in the forms.

He did not just "do" the SD stuff but went out and tried to discover the meaning behind the moves and how they need to be done to deliver the maximum effect.

[Judge Pen]

In my experience he is very skilled at finding the proper alignment and optimal positioning in the forms.

He did not just "do" the SD stuff but went out and tried to discover the meaning behind the moves and how they need to be done to deliver the maximum effect.

Which is an indictment to how SD is taught. Why do you need to go outside of the system to better understand your art? I get cross training with other styles or practioners of internal systems outside of SD to put your training in perspective, but that doesn't appear to be what you are saying.

[kungfujunky]

Judge,

There are a small handful of people in SD who can correctly teach what they have learned. You had the benefit of training with one such person. Grooms is another..because, like Mullins, he looked deeper into the material than most.

You twisted what I said a bit or I wasnt clear, but your last sentence was somewhat hard to understand so i am not sure how to answer it effectively.

When I said he "went out and tried to discover the meaning behind the moves and how they need to be done to deliver the maximum effect." what I am saying is he looked deeper for that understanding and perspective.

[Judge Pen]

Judge,

There are a small handful of people in SD who can correctly teach what they have learned. You had the benefit of training with one such person. Grooms is another..because, like Mullins, he looked deeper into the material than most.

You twisted what I said a bit or I wasnt clear, but your last sentence was somewhat hard to understand so i am not sure how to answer it effectively.

When I said he "went out and tried to discover the meaning behind the moves and how they need to be done to deliver the maximum effect." what I am saying is he looked deeper for that understanding and perspective.

I'm not trying to twist around any words, but one of the very valid criticisms of SD is that it is not often taught properly. And by that I mean with very much depth. I have heard of several SD masters who went outside the art to add depth and understanding to their training. Take Pa Kua for example. Many 2nd degree blacks have learned Pa Kua, performed it on a test, and were passed on to the next rank, but not many of them have ever heard of the 64 rules of Pa Kua. If they are lucky, they were taught a handful. I know 2nd degrees and higher that didn't even know these rules existed. I don't know if they were ever taught in SD by GM The, Hiang The or the eldest of his students or if they were introduced because some enterprising students sought out other instruction.

You are correct, I was very fortunate in my training. I believe that I received a deeper instruction than many. I was not taught the 64 rules. I found them on my own. I was taught many of the concepts, but they were not expressed the same way. I think the fundamentals should be taught to all students and concede this to be a very real and significant criticism of SD.

[tattooedmonk]

We have a pulse, This thread is still alive!

[RJ797]

I'm not trying to twist around any words, but one of the very valid criticisms of SD is that it is not often taught properly. And by that I mean with very much depth. I have heard of several SD masters who went outside the art to add depth and understanding to their training. Take Pa Kua for example. Many 2nd degree blacks have learned Pa Kua, performed it on a test, and were passed on to the next rank, but not many of them have ever heard of the 64 rules of Pa Kua. If they are lucky, they were taught a handful. I know 2nd degrees and higher that didn't even know these rules existed. I don't know if they were ever taught in SD by GM The, Hiang The or the eldest of his students or if they were introduced because some enterprising students sought out other instruction.

You are correct, I was very fortunate in my training. I believe that I received a deeper instruction than many. I was not taught the 64 rules. I found them on my own. I was taught many of the concepts, but they were not expressed the same way. I think the fundamentals should be taught to all students and concede this to be a very real and significant criticism of SD.

To illustrate the point and understand the difference in what people have learned around the system. In Denver they teach Pa Kua in about 8 class hours - sometimes less and then move on to spending about the same number of hours on Tai Chi or something else.

In Atlanta the students have class available to them 5 or 6 days a week for 8 months on Pa Kua. They might get about 100 hours of instruction to deliver the movements. They will get a few hours of time going through the 64 Rules and a few hours on the 1-5 Level training and some time on applications. The students get an explanation of the 64 Rules and a written copy.

[kungfujunky]

Thank you RJ

I know that in Atlanta they spend a lot of time on Tai Chi and Hsing I as well.

Also on Pa Kua, they do intensive seminars for it to cover certain aspects in more detail.

[Judge Pen]

Question for the Atlanta people: Do you know if Master Grooms received a copy of the 64 rules from GM The (or another master who taught Master Grooms) or if he discovered it from an outside source and then started incorporating it into his instruction?

[One student]

To illustrate the point and understand the difference in what people have learned around the system. In Denver they teach Pa Kua in about 8 class hours - sometimes less and then move on to spending about the same number of hours on Tai Chi or something else.

In Atlanta the students have class available to them 5 or 6 days a week for 8 months on Pa Kua. They might get about 100 hours of instruction to deliver the movements. They will get a few hours of time going through the 64 Rules and a few hours on the 1-5 Level training and some time on applications. The students get an explanation of the 64 Rules and a written copy.

I can say that in the very early 80's when I first took Pa Kau (from GMT) in Lexington, I got written materials the first week (over the 8-10 week course), which I still have, which included the names for each move in each section, in Chinese and English; the entirety of the 64 Rules, by Chinese term and translated into English (which track and are very close to the same explanations as I've seen in books since then from other practitioners), which GMT went over individually in class; hand sketches of the 8 palm positions; and drawings of several foot work patters (which we also trained in class), to side step and avoid and counter. We also spent time with GMT calling out the movements (in Chinese) in order, and also randomly so as to rearrange the movements from the form. Many of you also know, GMT taught other versions and styles of Pa Kua over the years, and the Dragon style has a two man set with applications. Eric Smith also taught a Pa Kua class with applications and we used weights (jackets, ankles, wrists) while training the form; and that I understood from the class that he did gain and review with GMT (for being on the correct path, so to speak) beforehand.

And I know many if not most of the more experienced practitioners did visit with or train with Pa Kua outside of SD, and did not shy from books written by other Pa Kua practioners. I have several Pa Kua books that I study and yes it does give insights into what the material is, that isn't gained just in class. I place doing that in the vein of, not just being given the gold, but finding out how to make your own, or at least find it yourself.

[sean_stonehart]

Does any one know the starting date of CSC-Atlanta under Master Gary Grooms?
Where did Master Gary Start his training in SD and who was his Original Teacher?
What year did Master Gary get his 1st Degree Black Belt?
OTD

Why not ask him yourself? Directly. He might tell you. But then again, you'd have to tell him who you are & why you think you need this info.

[brucereiter]

Question for the Atlanta people: Do you know if Master Grooms received a copy of the 64 rules from GM The (or another master who taught Master Grooms) or if he discovered it from an outside source and then started incorporating it into his instruction?

When I first learned Pakua from master gary he gave use copies of the 64 rules typed by Gm the' and gave some verbal details about what they mean to the actual practice. It is my understanding that master gary learned from Gm the' and not a outside source.

[brucereiter]

Does any one know the starting date of CSC-Atlanta under Master Gary Grooms?
Where did Master Gary Start his training in SD and who was his Original Teacher?
What year did Master Gary get his 1st Degree Black Belt?
OTD

I think master gary started in 1982 with the soards in Denver and then after moving to atlanta in the mid 1980's started visiting some Kentucky schools for training which I suppose lead to him taking private lessons with Gm the'.

I do not know when he got his black belt but it must have been in the mid to late 1980's.

[brucereiter]

Do have experience with grooms? If so just curious how he stacks up with the other masters outside of sd.

Yes, I have lots of experience with him. He is my primary tai chi chuan teacher.
He has a very pragmatic view of martial arts and I think in many areas he exceeds what teachers from other systems offer. The biggest thing he taught me was how to learn and how to test my material.

If you are looking for words like qua and dang and Shen fa to be used in instruction you will not get it. He speaks and teaches in american/English terms.

[Leto]

The Soards' CSC handbook has the 64 rules in it. Every CSC student gets a copy of them. I don't know when they first got the rules, but it is reasonable to think Grooms might have gotten the rules from them. I'm surprised to hear so many people never knew them, we reviewed them repeatedly over the course of the three months alotted to baguazhang. (Three months is not enough, but it's more than they give to anything else)

[bodhi warrior]

1974 - Pa Kua seminars, Hand written notes, Hand Drawn- no rules - Sticky hand & Feet, 2-man exercises. However GMS did go over the rules and gave some examples.. if you could do 'shorthand' you would have gotten the info. When GMS announced he would do a Pa Kua seminar in '79, a few of the Black belts agreed to type out the original notes and leave space for the Pinyin names. GMS said' In that case let's add in the 64 rules". So we agreed to type the rules and he added the Pinyin Characters
1979 - Pa Kua Seminars, Type Written notes w/rules - hand written Pinyin Characters - Added Fighting techniques and 1 - 5 Level training - Blindfold Sticky hands/feet.
1982 - Spring Soards move to Denver
1983 - Pa Kua Seminars Sports Center, Type written w/rules - hand written Pinyin Characters, Fighting Techniques, 1-5 Level Training Single/Double Sticky Hands/Feet, 2-Man Exercises

I could be wrong, however, the Original notes have a distingushing feature that dates Them and the original typed do as well.

OTD

What was the 1-5 level training exactly?

[Baqualin]

Hey All...still alive and still watching the madness from the trees. I have to agree with OTD (hello my friend!) I took the 79 seminar, which was really a special class once a week for 2 or 3 months (getting old)...all the notes, 64 rules, palms and training levels were given to us. Everthing was covered in class and being that Tai Chi 64 & Classical Pakua were the only internal forms taught at that time, all levels were learning them and it was easy to get extra instruction (especially push hands) long after the class. He taught it as a special class in the mid 90's the same way with all the handouts. There's no reason that any teacher wouldn't have the notes to share. Peace

[Shaolin Wookie]

Some guy named Joshua Grant was on American Ninja Warrior (season 2) Midwest prelims. He made it to the obstacle called the "Lamp Ramp" or something like that, but then fell into the water, probably due to his bad wrist.

Anyways, they did a short little expose on him before his run. It showed 3 clips of him doing some forms---one of the Brown Belt cranes, Fei Hu Chu Tung, and something else that looked like maybe Tang Lang Quan.


He looked like a bright kid, in great shape, and a pretty talented parkour runner on the side.

[bodhi warrior]

Some guy named Joshua Grant was on American Ninja Warrior (season 2) Midwest prelims. He made it to the obstacle called the "Lamp Ramp" or something like that, but then fell into the water, probably due to his bad wrist.

Anyways, they did a short little expose on him before his run. It showed 3 clips of him doing some forms---one of the Brown Belt cranes, Fei Hu Chu Tung, and something else that looked like maybe Tang Lang Quan.


He looked like a bright kid, in great shape, and a pretty talented parkour runner on the side.

I saw that! I soon as I heard black belt in shaolin Kung fu it got my attention. Watching him do pieces of forms confirmed a shaolin do practitioner. They showed some of his free running clips, and he had some impressive skill.

[themeecer]

I saw that! I soon as I heard black belt in shaolin Kung fu it got my attention. Watching him do pieces of forms confirmed a shaolin do practitioner. They showed some of his free running clips, and he had some impressive skill.

Any idea of the exact episode number?

[bodhi warrior]

Any idea of the exact episode number?

It was the Midwest regional. He studied in Illinois. Even with a bad wrist still got top 15 and headed to Vegas.

[kungfujunky]

Yes, I have lots of experience with him. He is my primary tai chi chuan teacher.
He has a very pragmatic view of martial arts and I think in many areas he exceeds what teachers from other systems offer. The biggest thing he taught me was how to learn and how to test my material.

If you are looking for words like qua and dang and Shen fa to be used in instruction you will not get it. He speaks and teaches in american/English terms.


Bruce we still need to get together and train man!

You are spot on with your assessment of Master Gary. My thoughts exactly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a vast difference between the myths of origins of a TCMA and someone MAKING stuff up and PASSING it as a legit tradition.

[David Jamieson]

Sorry I didn't see the vastness of the difference here…I stand corrected. Actually, I just didn't want to see this thread drop off the first page just in case any one had something interesting to say.:D

Trust me, we are thousands of posts in and hundreds of pages and nothing really interesting has been said.

Most folk know that Sin The is a lark and full of hooey. But hey, people like his workout etc.

It doesn't make him less full of it and super sketchy with his history.

If people want that, they can have it. take it! It's all yours! :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sorry I didn't see the vastness of the difference here…I stand corrected. Actually, I just didn't want to see this thread drop off the first page just in case any one had something interesting to say.:D

If I make up a system from scratch (almost impossible to then now or in the past by the way) and decide to "make up" a story about how it came to me while watching a tiger fight an elephant, that is one thing.
If I take what I know from my many systems that I learned and call it "fighting taco" and say that it was given to me by a shaolin monk then that is another, agreed?

[brucereiter]

What happened to the first post from kung fu fan and the post with genes advice to use the search function to learn if it's real or not?

[OldandUsed]

shhhhhhh! We will never get to 1,000 if you insist on following the rules.

[Judge Pen]

look, clearly Sin The studied something back home in Indonesia; it was probably a miss-mosh of different things, whatever was locally available, which certainly could have been an admixture of various Chinese / Japanese / indigenous systems; whatever he picked up, when/where he started teaching in the US 30+ years ago, no one had the capacity to critically assess the veracity of his claims, and as such, he could pass it off as "authentic" Shaolin and also just add things on as he saw fit; I'm sure that at the point when the question of gi's, nomenclature and inconsistencies in forms arose, the explanations manifested as needed; by now, the system persists because people who invested decades into the process are more likely to accept the outlandish if it preserves the illusion, than the truth, which would shatter their delusion, and since they have predicated much of their self-identity on the fable, they just can't afford that (psychologically and / or economically)

I very much agree with this point.

[Judge Pen]

What happened to the first post from kung fu fan and the post with genes advice to use the search function to learn if it's real or not?

I think most of those other threads were merged with this one in an effort to keep most SD discussion "quarantined."

[PalmStriker]

This Sin dude isn't the only MA guy to run some stuff past the masses for a buck. :D His followers will do pretty much whatever, Hee-Yah!!! Chop! Chop!

[kwaichang]

Well I love that I can even train in Kung fu or SD what ever you want to call it, having a bad injury sucks but training in anything is good I have found this out. Still like most of what I do and will cont to do it . no worries. KC:)

[Crushing Fist]

I haven't thought about this website in years. What thread do I find at the very top? Some things never change :)

Hi Bruce!

[BM2]

I thought it would have reached the 1,000 page mark by now

[Empty_Cup]

First-time poster here...just wanted to say hello and thank everybody who has contributed to the thread so far...lots of good info. I'm on page 340 of this megathread so far and hope to catch up to real-time soon.

Been in SD for 5 years off and on (Kansas City and now Ohio) and am currently a 1st Brown. Study both external and internal paths. Previously studied Penjat Silat Bukti Negara and Tae Kwon Do before my current training.

[kwaichang]

What page are you on now in the thread? KC:rolleyes::D

[Empty_Cup]

What page are you on now in the thread? KC:rolleyes::D

355...might not be as soon as I thought :(

[Empty_Cup]

that far along and u still haven't figured out the endlessly repetitive nature of the discourse?

Now on page 400 and it's funny you mention that...the whole thread has a very predictable type of cycle that almost seems like the "Seasons of Debate." It's of course somewhat disjointed since a number of other threads were merged but the general cycle is this:
1) ...all quiet...
2) ...a new poster spouts a one liner either for/against SD (usually against)
3) the post is called out as trolling but nevertheless riles the beehive. At this point one of two things happen: a) some SD proponent calmly asks for more specifics/more info on original poster's opinion or b) some SD proponent zealously lights the torches and assembles for battle
4) Banter goes back and forth for awhile and usually degenerates into debating nuances. Videos are posted. Lots of quoting happens here.
5) Insults are made. Personal attacks ensue. Chaos reigns.
6) Everybody realizes they've gone a bit too far for an Internet forum and generally backs down a bit. The people who were at each other's throats not so long ago now start making some constructive criticisms and/or gestures of brotherhood. I refer to this as the "post-fight kumbaya" phase.
7) There's a general agreement to disagree and folks summarize their opinions with closing arguments that usually are just a restatement of their opening post and with no new facts/information.
8) Repeat Step 1 :D

[Empty_Cup]

...within this cycle I've been privy to some very cool info that would be pretty hard to find elsewhere. Proponents and detractors alike have been posting really cool pictures, sharing anecdotes, and linking some very nice websites. I especially like hearing from the old timers about the training methods and conditioning from way back when.

At this point I've gotten the feel for which posts (and posters) to just scroll through and which ones to read in depth. There are SD proponents and detractors in each of those categories so all in all it's a pretty balanced discussion :)

[Judge Pen]

I refer to this as the "post-fight kumbaya" phase.


NOW THAT WAS FUNNY. Wait until you get to the Sin The deposition discussion.

[Empty_Cup]

GT, BQ,

Please check your PM's when you have some time.

Regards,
EC

[shen ku]

hello everyone, i hope everyone is training hard and going after all your personal goals,,, just curious what are you trainging goals, where are you going, what are you doing to get there?

[Empty_Cup]

hello everyone, i hope everyone is training hard and going after all your personal goals,,, just curious what are you trainging goals, where are you going, what are you doing to get there?

Hi Shen great question.

I'm still very early in the journey but here are some long-term goals I'm hoping to achieve:

- Health and Longevity: I would love to live to 100 and be healthy the whole time.
- Passing on the Tradition: As part of the generations of MA's I'd like to be able to represent our system well and especially carry on the "specialties" of our school. Currently our school focuses on the internal styles as well as iron bone. Once I get further on in my training, I plan to focus as well in an animal style that suits my body type. My current thinking is Preying Mantis but until I get more exposure to that style it's hard to say. I plan on doing whatever it takes to develop a specialty in this area, whether it's seeking out well-recognized masters within my own system or even going outside of my system to "cross-train" my understanding and knowledge.
- Fitness and Flexibility: I'd like to have good fitness and great flexibility. This is going to be a long journey especially with my current hip flexibility.
- Qigong: I've always been fascinated by qigong and plan to study this forever. I'm currently still in "passive breathing" mode and have no expectations whatsoever of how long it will take me to reach each stage of development. It would be nice to achieve small circulation before I die. Also, being a science guy, I'd like to continue research and even potentially contribute to society's understanding of qi and qigong.
- Sparring: I'm not really a fighter but would like to elevate my level of sparring to a high degree and really work to incorporate the internal systems like Pa Kua and Tai Chi into my sparring. In working on timing, footwork, and other skills I'd like to be able to completely outmaneuver the opponent(s) to the point that the actual hit/strike is icing on the cake.

This might not be everything but should be most of it.

[bodhi warrior]

I'd like to highlight a part of the deposition that has been on my mind.

"Q Well, did you have an agreement with him that he would not teach your copyrighted material and you would not teach his material?

A Let me explain this. My material I cleared some and he had cleared some, too. But they are common bound material that is shaolin Kung fu. And so it is understood I teach my material and the shaolin kung fu as well. As a matter of fact my material is around 50 something to 60 material, but shaolin kung fu I taught over a hundred. So likewise, you know.

Q So your agreement with your brother was that the common material both of you could teach, and you would teach the material that you came up with and he would teach the material he came up with?

A More or less."

If you look at the common material that both brothers teach and that Sin seems to be calling Shaolin, it's just about everything up to blackbelt, and also some material past blackbelt. But later in the deposition it seems this the same material he's saying he has copyrighted.
What do you all think about this?

[Judge Pen]

I'd like to highlight a part of the deposition that has been on my mind.

"Q Well, did you have an agreement with him that he would not teach your copyrighted material and you would not teach his material?

A Let me explain this. My material I cleared some and he had cleared some, too. But they are common bound material that is shaolin Kung fu. And so it is understood I teach my material and the shaolin kung fu as well. As a matter of fact my material is around 50 something to 60 material, but shaolin kung fu I taught over a hundred. So likewise, you know.

Q So your agreement with your brother was that the common material both of you could teach, and you would teach the material that you came up with and he would teach the material he came up with?

A More or less."

If you look at the common material that both brothers teach and that Sin seems to be calling Shaolin, it's just about everything up to blackbelt, and also some material past blackbelt. But later in the deposition it seems this the same material he's saying he has copyrighted.
What do you all think about this?

I noticed that inconsistency too. The problem is the more inconsistent this story becomes, the less credibility it has. You can look at it as proof he is lying, and can't keep his story straight. Or you could look at it like that material is "shaolin kung fu". However, it's clear that he tried to copyright this material regardless of its origins. So he can't have it both ways and shows a willingness to be loose with the truth even under oath.

If the attorney asking the questions picked up on this inconsistency, then he might have been able to go back and question him specifically on this apparent inconsistency. But he might have chosen not to for strategic purposes. When I'm deposing people I'm often happy to let them stand on a lie instead of trying to point out the inconsistency on the record and give them a chance to explain. It can be a good legal strategy when litigating a case, but it won't help us much here.

[tattooedmonk]

Btw. Anyone hear the news?! The movie is finally being done!

[bodhi warrior]

Btw. Anyone hear the news?! The movie is finally being done!

You mean finally done filming? Or do you mean finally going to start on it? Because he's been starting on it since the '90's.

[tattooedmonk]

its being filmed in China with a special guest appearence!!!

[bodhi warrior]

its being filmed in China with a special guest appearence!!!

I gotta admit. I can't wait. For multiple reasons. Lol

[Judge Pen]

You mean finally done filming? Or do you mean finally going to start on it? Because he's been starting on it since the '90's.

It was started in the 80s cause he was talking about it in 1989.

[katmandu]

seriously, how many times has he filmed this movie? he started in the 80's talking about it and even had a script written. i've read that original script and it only left me shaking my head in wonderment who would be dumb enough to finance something so ridiculous. obviously, nobody. then there was the "filmmaker" who was hooked up with the soards, and was the big ticket to getting it done. that was late 80's. what about the big "premiere" at his tournament where everybody was pumped about getting to see it only to be let down when they actually got to see camcorder footage of his visit to the homeland. apparently, after the film was edited there was only about 20 minutes of footage they could use for the "movie", and everything had to be refilmed. anyone remember the giant posters he had made that looked like theater posters? wow! how pumped was everybody that "The Grandmaster" was finally coming. and those kinds of stories goes on and on. i mean really, after almost 30 years of "filming", couldn't somebody get it right? i'm betting after this version is "edited", it'll have to start all over because they won't be able to explain the fact he's aged 30 years (without makeup) during the span of a 2 hour movie! now let me ask you, if he doesn't hesitate to lie about the movie, what makes anyone thinks he's telling the truth about "creating" all that material? under oath? i really don't think he cares, after all he can always plead ignorance of the english language. and, i can understand the difficulty he has with understanding it. after all, he's only been here since 1964, gotten a degree in engineering (at an english speaking university), and was working on a dissertation for a phD. yeah, i'm sure english is tough for him to understand. everybody knows he didn't create that material, his brother has the original notes on all of it that he wrote long before coming to the US. remember the little fiasco suit he filed against hamilton claiming he created all that? hiang appeared in court with his notes and crushed sin's claim. he produced notes on everything from short kata to short stick and all the rest. maybe hiang has the same capacity that sin always talked about when meditating. you know the one where he could meditate and leave his body and travel around in space and time. i'm betting hiang did some meditative time travel, saw what would happen about sin's claims, came back and wrote up a bunch of notes to embarrass his big brother in court. what a shame, because honestly the "truth" about the entire system, its lineage, etc is far more interesting than what's been fabricated. gotta give sin credit where credit is due, though. he's built a real cash cow, unfortunately at the expense of selling out his heritage.

[bodhi warrior]

Excellent post!

[UCT]

I noticed that inconsistency too. The problem is the more inconsistent this story becomes, the less credibility it has. You can look at it as proof he is lying, and can't keep his story straight. Or you could look at it like that material is "shaolin kung fu". However, it's clear that he tried to copyright this material regardless of its origins. So he can't have it both ways and shows a willingness to be loose with the truth even under oath.

If the attorney asking the questions picked up on this inconsistency, then he might have been able to go back and question him specifically on this apparent inconsistency. But he might have chosen not to for strategic purposes. When I'm deposing people I'm often happy to let them stand on a lie instead of trying to point out the inconsistency on the record and give them a chance to explain. It can be a good legal strategy when litigating a case, but it won't help us much here.

Judge Pen is exactly correct. I did not pursue the questioning further since I wanted to impeach him at trial if it went that far. It was obvious that he was between a rock and a hard place. Either testify that what he teaches is ancient and therefore not copyrightable, or state he created it and that all of his claims to teach an ancient art are lies. I figured he would try to come up with some lame excuse if I asked him at the deposition to explain his numerous inconsistencies, so better to let him squirm on the hard questions in front of the jury. Of course, another factor was that the federal court has a local rule limiting the number of hours a deposition may last and I was approaching that limit.

[bodhi warrior]

Judge Pen is exactly correct. I did not pursue the questioning further since I wanted to impeach him at trial if it went that far. It was obvious that he was between a rock and a hard place. Either testify that what he teaches is ancient and therefore not copyrightable, or state he created it and that all of his claims to teach an ancient art are lies. I figured he would try to come up with some lame excuse if I asked him at the deposition to explain his numerous inconsistencies, so better to let him squirm on the hard questions in front of the jury. Of course, another factor was that the federal court has a local rule limiting the number of hours a deposition may last and I was approaching that limit.

So did Sin The' lose? What was the result?

[Empty_Cup]

I'm only on page 900 of reading through the thread so forgive me if this was already covered. UCT, are you the lawyer who led the deposition?

[nautavac]

So, What is the supposed name of this movie? I remember Master Kemper mentioning this movie in 2002 or 2003, and for some reason can't remember the movie's name. I would enjoy watching it, could not be any worse than Crippled Masters (at least I hope). Would actually enjoy seeing it. Anyone know what it is to be titled?

[MasterKiller]

So, What is the supposed name of this movie? What else would it be?

THE GRANDMASTER

[UCT]

I'm only on page 900 of reading through the thread so forgive me if this was already covered. UCT, are you the lawyer who led the deposition?

Yes, I am.

[Empty_Cup]

Yes, I am.

I am certain you're going to get a lot of questions here, then. And being there firsthand, your comments will most likely carry a lot of weight for the folks on this forum.

With all due respect, are you able to offer any proof that you are who you say you are? In this case it would seem your credibility depends on not being anonymous.

Again, not meant to be disrespectful, just meant to prevent trolling.

I would ask that an unbiased (in this debate) admin verify your identity offline.

[Leto]

Judge Pen is exactly correct. I did not pursue the questioning further since I wanted to impeach him at trial if it went that far. It was obvious that he was between a rock and a hard place. Either testify that what he teaches is ancient and therefore not copyrightable, or state he created it and that all of his claims to teach an ancient art are lies. I figured he would try to come up with some lame excuse if I asked him at the deposition to explain his numerous inconsistencies, so better to let him squirm on the hard questions in front of the jury. Of course, another factor was that the federal court has a local rule limiting the number of hours a deposition may last and I was approaching that limit.

I declare shenanigans...

[Judge Pen]

I declare shenanigans...

There are no shenanigans (especially when someone says I'm exactly correct).

[Judge Pen]

Yes, I am.

If you were the lawyer, then it was obvious from the depositions that you had reviewed this forum in your preparation. I wish I could get paid by the hour to lurk here....

[Empty_Cup]

If you were the lawyer, then it was obvious from the depositions that you had reviewed this forum in your preparation. I wish I could get paid by the hour to lurk here....

...or here:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-114874.html

[UCT]

If you were the lawyer, then it was obvious from the depositions that you had reviewed this forum in your preparation. I wish I could get paid by the hour to lurk here....


The case ended so fast I didn't make as much as I normally make on this kind of case. By the way, it was you that called me just after the depositions were published, wasn't it?

[Leto]

There are no shenanigans (especially when someone says I'm exactly correct).

*lol* Oh, the shenanigans aren't the sentiment of what was said. (Though they are shenanigans on the part of Sin The). The shenanigan here is the claim that this person is really the lawyer from the deposition. Anyone who has read the transcript and been participating in this forum could come to the conclusion he did. And wouldn't the real lawyer be prohibited from talking at all about a case that was settled out of court? I'm just hoping nobody is being fooled by this. I'm sure this person is someone who has frequented this forum and just wants to yank some chains by using the fictional authority of the lawyer to bash Sin The some more. I anticipate he will either disappear, never to be heard from again, without having revealed any information not already available to the public (which would be illegal to reveal anyway for an actual lawyer), or will devolve into name calling and Shaolin-Do bashing.

[shaolin_allan]

a shaolin do school opened up in phoenix. has anyone heard of a sifu named chuck burford? im curious about him i know he's connected to the Atlanta school so if you do pm me thanks.

[Judge Pen]

The case ended so fast I didn't make as much as I normally make on this kind of case. By the way, it was you that called me just after the depositions were published, wasn't it?

Yes it was.

[sean_stonehart]

a shaolin do school opened up in phoenix. has anyone heard of a sifu named chuck burford? im curious about him i know he's connected to the Atlanta school so if you do pm me thanks.

Yeah I know Chuck. Great guy... don't want to get hit by him if possible.

[Leto]

a shaolin do school opened up in phoenix. has anyone heard of a sifu named chuck burford? im curious about him i know he's connected to the Atlanta school so if you do pm me thanks.

Wow, so Shaolin Do is competing with CSC now? They are directly pushing into eachothers' territory? Is this the first shot in the soon-to-be named Great Shaolin War, or Shaolin-ageddon? Shaolin-Dopocalypse?

[RJ797]

Chuck has been there for awhile now. He is the "replacement" for Jake. At one point with Sin The's blessing, Jake and Robert Gardner were both in Phoenix (actually one is in Phoenix the other is in Scottsdale) Jake was under Grooms and Mullins. When Jake left the system, Grooms put Chuck in as a replacement.

[kwaichang]

I live in Tennessee , good to see there is a losing of this territory crap. I am interested to see what happens when or if I open a school here in Tn as I do not train with Mullins or Grooms. But with Texas and Lexington instead. Any other schools broken away from SD or Sin The ?? KC:eek:

[RJ797]

Teach wherever and whatever you want as long as you aren't interested in "staying in the system". If it's important to you to study under Leonard and Schaefer and have Sin The do your testing and teach a new form a couple of times a year - you are stuck with the territory crap

[bodhi warrior]

I live in Tennessee , good to see there is a losing of this territory crap. I am interested to see what happens when or if I open a school here in Tn as I do not train with Mullins or Grooms. But with Texas and Lexington instead. Any other schools broken away from SD or Sin The ?? KC:eek:

So have you gone rogue? If not whats the atmosphere been like in the association?

[UCT]

I live in Tennessee , good to see there is a losing of this territory crap. I am interested to see what happens when or if I open a school here in Tn as I do not train with Mullins or Grooms. But with Texas and Lexington instead. Any other schools broken away from SD or Sin The ?? KC:eek:

If you open your own school, I would recommend buying insurance that includes coverage for copyright infringement.

[katmandu]

curious. how many times has kwang been successful in a copyright infringement lawsuit? and by successful i mean how many lawsuits has he recovered $$ and forced the instructor to stop.

[bodhi warrior]

curious. how many times has kwang been successful in a copyright infringement lawsuit? and by successful i mean how many lawsuits has he recovered $$ and forced the instructor to stop.

Hamilton vs the', sin lost. There was a lawsuit involving vanover and moneymaker that I believe sin lost. Rhydberg(sp?) vs the, sin must have lost cause it looks like jake is still teaching the material and putting it in YouTube.

[OldandUsed]

It would seem that SKT would let it alone and just go about his business. Looks like he has a lousy record in his lawsuits. Hiang has been pretty sharp about his business and I do not see him getting into that mess.

Katmandu....you obviously have been in the SD camp. Are you with Hiang, now? Went by to visit him when I got back to KY and enjoyed visiting with him.

[kwaichang]

When you leave the fold u are Rogue, no one calls no one cares. why is that I wonder. Texas and Lexington was who i trained with. Not now though, no one cares I have been in SD for 21 years total and since I moved back to Tennessee I have been called 3 x by a friend in Texas. What a brother hood. They dont care it seems about you . KC

[kungfujunky]

they arent all like that kwaichang.

I will reach out to you soon!

[OldandUsed]

Pretty much agree with that. Had a couple fellows I worked with regularly up until I left the fold. After that, I heard I was persona nongrata. Only a couple of the guys have any sort of contact with me. Get more from Hiang's group and I spent less time with them, overall.

[kwaichang]

I guess it doesnt matter how hard u train and what rank u are and whos but you have kicked. They just dont call or associate with ya. I have called numerous times and contacted via FB and still nothing. I get more from people I trained with over 20 years ago. KC Is this the way it is.?

[Golden Tiger]

I guess it doesnt matter how hard u train and what rank u are and whos but you have kicked. They just dont call or associate with ya. I have called numerous times and contacted via FB and still nothing. I get more from people I trained with over 20 years ago. KC Is this the way it is.?

Awww, I will call you and talk to you and be your friend.:rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

Well thanks GT, BUt had I trained with you for 20 years I would feel you would have already called. The friendship and brotherhood is just as important or more so than the Politics that I have seen. Esp in SD. KC:)

[Judge Pen]

Hey KC give me a call sometime.

[tattooedmonk]

Happy Birthday!!!! :)

[kwaichang]

Thanks TTM KC:o

[themeecer]

Um .. are we actually crying because people we were associated with no longer call us? I guess I should be upset with 100% of my high school graduating class. I was with them for 12 years and I don't hear from any of them. That stuff just happens. We all have busy lives and when people move out of our lives, we move on. Nothing worth losing sleep over.

[Empty_Cup]

Um .. are we actually crying because people we were associated with no longer call us? I guess I should be upset with 100% of my high school graduating class. I was with them for 12 years and I don't hear from any of them. That stuff just happens. We all have busy lives and when people move out of our lives, we move on. Nothing worth losing sleep over.

That's why facebook is so great. Even after all those years we can create the illusion of still having friends.

[kwaichang]

Hey Meecer I guess you never really had friends then did you. I enjoy meeting new people who love martial arts and hate losing contact with those I like . Sorry you dont have any friends. KC:)

[BM2]

I can not belive I just stayed up till 3:15 AM reading this thread. Who can I sue?

[Judge Pen]

I can not belive I just stayed up till 3:15 AM reading this thread. Who can I sue?

You're SOL. It's called assumption of risk and comparative fault. You have no one to blame but yourself.

[BM2]

I'd rather blame my lawyer.

[Empty_Cup]

Where has UCT gone? He posted once or twice then hasn't commented since...



Anybody else see this thread? http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64208

[BM2]

actually, it was four times.

[Old Noob]

Where has UCT gone? He posted once or twice then hasn't commented since...



Anybody else see this thread? http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64208

I just wish someone had posted the "authentic kung fu" example of the same form for the sake of comparison as Bhodi Warrior had asked.

[sean_stonehart]

I just wish someone had posted the "authentic kung fu" example of the same form for the sake of comparison as Bhodi Warrior had asked.

It's there now ... and here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j8lNk0SjwQ

[Old Noob]

It's there now ... and here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j8lNk0SjwQ

Thanks, Sean, for posting that. Certainly the two are different; barely recognizable as the same form.

[sean_stonehart]

Thanks, Sean, for posting that. Certainly the two are different; barely recognizable as the same form.

Yup... but not to salt things, but one is the form & one is a poorly attempted copy of it. Not saying it can't be made to work individual motion by individual motion, but it's not correct in form/function/design & poorly executed at best.

[UCT]

I can not belive I just stayed up till 3:15 AM reading this thread. Who can I sue?

If serious, then please understand that the law in every jurisdiction is different and you should consult a lawyer in your own state rather than rely on internet legal advice.

[tattooedmonk]

this is from one of the the disgruntaled viewers:rolleyes:...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzf31suKzqg


anyone want to discuss this??

this is the form alright , must have just learned it, any comments Sean??

[tattooedmonk]

Yup... but not to salt things, but one is the form & one is a poorly attempted copy of it. Not saying it can't be made to work individual motion by individual motion, but it's not correct in form/function/design & poorly executed at best.I totally agree, Jakes is karatefied. He may not have taken it from the book, but maybe someone else did.:rolleyes:

[bodhi warrior]

this is from one of the the disgruntaled viewers:rolleyes:...

.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzf31suKzqg....


anyone want discuss this??

this is the form alright , must have just learned it, any comments Sean??

This guy has no business making negative comments on someone else's form. That's all I'm gonna say.

[tattooedmonk]

Jakes only real problem, beside the ego, is the way he does his chinese martial arts , it just doesnt have that flow , its hard and chopy. He looks like a combination of SKT and DS doing his forms. you can definately see who he modeled himself after.

make no mistake, though he is talented and has considerable skills. I would like to help him straighten some of it out if I could.

and that goes out to all CS/ SD students. I went to three centers on a road trip recently and couldnt believe what I saw. it was sad . I feel sorry for those instructors out in the middle of no where without any real resources. other than SHS and DS. they are totally disconnected from reality.

its amazing what you can learn from the people that actually know CMA. Just saying.

[tattooedmonk]

This guy has no business making negative comments on someone else's form. That's all I'm gonna say.Right?? I laughed my @$$ off!

[sean_stonehart]

this is from one of the the disgruntaled viewers:rolleyes:...

.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzf31suKzqg....


anyone want discuss this??

this is the form alright , must have just learned it, any comments Sean??

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAH.... this is awful. I hadn't seen him do that!! I've seen him with Wing Lam's Buk Siu Lum sets, but not this one.

[tattooedmonk]

I knew if anyone knew it would be you.:D thanks

[Old Noob]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAH.... this is awful. I hadn't seen him do that!! I've seen him with Wing Lam's Buk Siu Lum sets, but not this one.

I thought for a second you'd come on and say that was the "real authentic kung fu." I was thinking that if that was the real deal, give me SD any day.

That guy's a sifu?

I guess there are sifus in our system that are similar.

[tattooedmonk]

There are good and bad in all styles / schools/ systems.

[sean_stonehart]

It's thing to do a set. Anybody can. I can buy videos from "X" & do the set being shown on the DVD. Doesn't mean I 'know it'.

However when you study the style from the ground up that "X" came from, then you understand everything before you get to the set (ie... basics/fundamentals). Then when you perform it, you should look like 'you know it' & it should be obvious. There's a certain flow & natural understanding of the body involved. Not so much in that video or Jake's video.

The only people who will play that set (since that's the topic currently) properly are people from that branch of CLF... meaning the Lau Bun Hung Sing school, including DFW since he was a student of Lau Bun. Reason being?? Basics and proper transmission of the set.

[tattooedmonk]

So true.....basics people basics, its about the quality of what you know not the quantity. its better to know very little and use it well rather than knowing a great deal and not being able to use it at all. in jakes version I see more athleticism and some karate, but very little CMA basics. and all the phoom and pows have to go.( sound effects)

[BM2]

If serious, then please understand that the law in every jurisdiction is different and you should consult a lawyer in your own state rather than rely on internet legal advice.

That is the paradox I find myself in, wether to rely on your advice.
I believe in personal liberty that provides the right of everyone to be stupid. Some, however, abuse that right.

[BM2]

For those who receive, or have knowledge of the letter, what was BL's take ?

[Leto]

Jakes only real problem, beside the ego, is the way he does his chinese martial arts , it just doesnt have that flow , its hard and chopy. He looks like a combination of SKT and DS doing his forms. you can definately see who he modeled himself after.

make no mistake, though he is talented and has considerable skills. I would like to help him straighten some of it out if I could.

and that goes out to all CS/ SD students. I went to three centers on a road trip recently and couldnt believe what I saw. it was sad . I feel sorry for those instructors out in the middle of no where without any real resources. other than SHS and DS. they are totally disconnected from reality.

its amazing what you can learn from the people that actually know CMA. Just saying.

What can be expected, though, if that's all the martial arts experience they have had? Jake started CSC when he was a teenager, so of course SKT and DS are his role models. Maybe he thinks he's too far down the rabbit hole now to accept training from another source. I was lucky that CSC was not my first serious exposure to martial arts training, and after leaving I had no problem learning from other sources. So much can be improved and corrected on the CSC material even by just reading the treatises of past and current experts of Chinese martial arts, and watching videos. How much more can be gained by finding another teacher, even just to correct the basics.
With the internet, it is much more easy to connect with "reality", though it is also easier to get deeper into a fantasy world. But more information available isn't a bad thing, in this case.

[Old Noob]

the guy in this video does it better than jake does. but still, its a HORRIBLE attempt. still better than jakes IMO

No way. He may do the moves more accurately but if this is an example of "better" because the player has a better understanding of the principles and foundations of the style, then I have to question the style. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an expert in CMA history and I'm sure that I'm a flawed practitioner, but what are you really talking about when you talk about the fundamentals and foundations of a style?

Is it good stances and rooting? If so, Jake does it better than that.

Is it balance and control? If so, Jake does it better than that.

Is it fluidity? If so, Jake does it better than that but is admittedly inferior to the video that Sean posted.

Is it power? If so, Jake does it better than both of the other vids.

One of the eternal debates that goes around this fora is whether and to what extent forms training is valuable as practical MA training. I realize and accept that forms aren't the most effective and efficient way to train practical usage of techniques. Nonetheless, I practice forms because its a workout and I practice them in such a way that the practice of those forms aids me in sparring and, hopefully, self defense if necessary. So, if my practice of forms is either historically inaccurate or leaves out some je ne sais quoi, I can't say that that means its inferior. If Jake hits or kicks you, I bet you'll feel it (as long as he doesn't misuse his beaks :) ). If I hit or kick you, you'll feel it. I'm not sure that having the whatever it is you guys keep talking about on here contributes to that at all.

BTW, though I'm SD now, I did get my start in longfist and jow ga under Sifu Mike Barry. Though I see the differences in the forms and understand the "karatefied" distinction you are all making, I don't know whether that makes it truly inferior or whether it just makes it inauthentic.

But whatever...

[bodhi warrior]

if anyone in shaolin do never questions the true source of what they are learning they will just keep learning how to push the MONKEYS BEAK in his videos.

MONKEYS BEAK. can anyone tell me what fakkin monkey on this planet has a beak that looks like MANTIS HANDS? pls enlighten me

Dude, I don't agree with much of what you say. But your monkey beak comments are funny as hell!

[OldandUsed]

I have to admit that I have enjoyed the discussion lately. All of the back and forth with he stole this from us and he does this well and he does nothing even close to kung fu or he is no good because he is from a hybrid/made up/not traditional/accepted CMA. Yes, I was a sd-er for over 30 years. Yes, I also studied and became proficient in Kodokan Judo and Byakuren Karate. As retired military and retired law enforcement, I can tell you the SD techniques work against opponent intent on harming you with any means available. But how can this be? SD is fake. There is no way it can work in practical application! LOL! Give me a break. Okay, so we acknowledge that SD is not 100% traditional CMA. So what? I never got into it because it was true/accpeted CMA. I got into it because it worked.

[Old Noob]

if anyone in shaolin do never questions the true source of what they are learning they will just keep learning how to push the MONKEYS BEAK in his videos.

MONKEYS BEAK. can anyone tell me what fakkin monkey on this planet has a beak that looks like MANTIS HANDS? pls enlighten me

I don't disagree with everything you say, particualarly about the "beaks." Frankly, I question the practical applicability of lots of modern mantis bridging (and other beaklike grabbing) techniques when applied to another fighter who is not also trying to bridge in the first instance. But I think different people practice martial arts for different reasons. Mostly, I practice martial arts for fitness and the self defense spillover benefits. I chose kung fu over karate generally over other martial arts because a (admittedly smaller) part of me likes the traditional forms and the weapons. That smallest part of me is dissappointed in SD because it is clear that at least some of SD is taken wholesale from other systems and that some is just made up. I chose SD where I live though, and will stay with SD here, because my Sifu was the best martial artist I saw when I visited all the schools that I was contemplating.

What I will say about the folks I've met in the SD system (again I admit that I haven't met everyone in the system) is that, while many of them or not prettty (some are), the majority of them are very fit and are **** scrappy and game.

The forms are what they are in the system. I'm comfortable with the fact that I practice an Indo-Chinese hybrid system that has evolved from several different sources, to include, much to your chagrine I know, kung fu.

[tattooedmonk]

What can be expected, though, if that's all the martial arts experience they have had? Jake started CSC when he was a teenager, so of course SKT and DS are his role models. Maybe he thinks he's too far down the rabbit hole now to accept training from another source. I was lucky that CSC was not my first serious exposure to martial arts training, and after leaving I had no problem learning from other sources. So much can be improved and corrected on the CSC material even by just reading the treatises of past and current experts of Chinese martial arts, and watching videos. How much more can be gained by finding another teacher, even just to correct the basics.
With the internet, it is much more easy to connect with "reality", though it is also easier to get deeper into a fantasy world. But more information available isn't a bad thing, in this case.I totally agree . I see it from all angles.

[tattooedmonk]

monkey beaks!!!!!

a half decent martial artist can make anything work.....even whiping your arse has an application to it if you look close enough. :D

Shaolin Do has zero kung fu roots therefore cannot be even called "SHAOLIN" in my opinion. it should be called Kungarate. :D

my apologies. i thought there would be zero evidence of a monkey with a beak. i was horribly incorrect. sorry.

http://www.scaryforkids.com/pics/kappa-01.jpgthis is the funniest sh!t ever!!

[Lucas]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IYj0oAggHQw/TeUA15j9RNI/AAAAAAAAAA0/n84blVDA9L8/s1600/monkey_smoking_1a.jpg

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/110912-smoking-monkey-5a.grid-4x2.jpg

[Old Noob]

practicing martial arts is a great thing. the problem starts when someone tries to sell you a BMW when it was nothing more than a Ford Pinto. its really sad cause people get fooled and eventually hurt because they trusted something to teach them something authentic. if jake just called what he's doing karate or even kung fu INFLUENCED karate i wouldn't have a problem with him. at least he could admit its not really shaolin, right?

FOR everyone who reads this thread, if you come across a kung fu school where everyone in the entire lineage was wearing karate gi's, black belts, and using karate style terminology for tradition kung fu techniques......QUESTION THE TEACHER IMMEDIATELY!

DON'T GET FOOLED BY SNAKE OIL SALESMEN

PS. MY DISLIKE IS TOWARDS JAKE FOR TRYING TO TELL ME HE KNEW MANY TEACHERS IN CHINA WHO PRACTICE THE ONE FORM IN QUESTION. RIGHT THERE, THAT IS A BALD FACE LIE. he could have just said...."sorry, my teacher taught it to me, my apologies" i would have just said cool....

in saying, i don't dislike shaolin do.....

I can't really disagree with any of this. If you say, "hey my teacher taught me this and told me this history," you're right, he would be fine. That is assuming, of course, that he did'nt really run into anyone in China who did it.

Anyway, good to see a discussion not go down the nonproductive road.

I am interested in having someone express to me how the form, as performed in the video that Sean posted, expresses well the foundations of your system. Not for any argumentative reason; I'm just interested.

[Old Noob]

it doesn't. As the form we are talking about (the same one sean posted) it was relayed from our founder lau bun that the form was originally a rare northern shaolin five animal form. he'd been teaching it from the erly 1920's till his passing in 1967. over time, that form got "SOUTHERNIZED" via our Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.

one thing not mentioned is that our form is also an internal one.

for our hung sing Choy Lee Fut our forms like Sup Ji Kau Da, Ping Kuen, Sup Ji, and even our Cheung Kuen are better expressions of my style than the 5 animal form.

However, the true ESSENCE of the 5 animal form is expressed in our system not by imitating an animal but its ESSENCE. Speed, accuracy, aggression, cunning, grace.

but i may be misinterpreting what you mean by expressing the foundations

I was confused; I thought this was a guy from your system doing it correctly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j8lNk0SjwQ

[Old Noob]

he is. sifu bender and jake are NOT doing it correctly.

Thats what I thought. So what is this guy doing that correctly expresses the foundations of your system?

[Lucas]

it seems like oldnoob is asking what DFW is doing that expresses your styles foundations well.

[Syn7]

Isn't it possible that the northern shaolin five animal form could have been passed down to others. If this Sifus wife knows it from her family, it is possible that others knew the original form before the lau bin line "southernized" the form with the CLF influence. It's even possible that there could be many diff versions of this form if the original is old. I look at other bak mei schools and see the forms and some are different in this way or that way but it is the same form and the concepts are there. So if a form is like 200 years old there could potentially be 100s of versions out there as the art travels thru different teachers and areas. All these influences make changes here and there like CLF did to the 5 animal form.

Are there markers in Jakes form that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it comes from the book?


Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Jake, I think his kungarate is pretty fukced up and he is clearly in the dark or a serious liar. He could just be a huge victim tho. Another notch on the SD bedpost. Fukced by Sin The.

My guess is that he was a victim but instead of just admitting it and moving on, he is going balls deep on this in some fukced up denial/save face nerdquest bullsh1t. Ya think? Ya!;)

[Syn7]

That is hardly proof. I find the standards of evidence in CMA to be highly suspect. Just coz you and your sifu haven't seen it anywhere doesn't mean it isn't anywhere else. The form was originally an obscure family form and it may still be which is why nobody can find it. But then who is actually looking? Who has gone all over the world and spoken to all sifu and asked specifically to find that form. If they had they would be an idiot coz it would be an exercise in futility. Too many people too much land to cover. A team of 10,000 people trained in research methods would find this a daunting task.


I think the only thing you can say with RELATIVE certainty is that your lineage is the only popular lineage to show it to outsiders.


Like I said before, if you can identify the markers and prove that the form came from the book, cool. I do not believe that this Jake kid found a rare form from "many masters in china" clearly the kid is a liar. I'm just sayin, it is possible that the form exists outside your lineage.

Do you have any documentation to show us the form that was originally taught by the wife so we can compare it to what the form has become?

I'm not picking on you HSK, I even like you. You seem like a good guy so please don't take offense to what I'm saying. I just think you need to be a lot more objective in the way you choose what to believe. I can think of a million and one scenarios where that form could exist elsewhere yet remain obscure and hidden.

[Syn7]

its up to you to believe it or not. I challenge you to find the exact same form ANYWHERE outside my lineage. I don't mean people who bought the book or DVD. I'm talking about a 100% authentic and legitimate system out there. Not these kungarate's. no karate background or tons of caucasians only either.

i can sit back and confidently say you won't find it outside of my lineage. my challenge stands for anyone to do this.



i'd only agree to that if you can find me a lineage in true northern shaolin that does this form. if you DO, i would even thank you for finding it. it would be hella nice to know more background on a form we've been passion down for almost 100 years in our family alone.



no prob. i'm a big boy. not too ingorant either. :D

like i mentioned above....when a legitimate northern shaolin system can show me the exact same form..... i stand on my statements that this 5 animal form is exclusive to our system. still, i look forward to the day i'm proven wrong.



that would be a negative. for all i know it could have been completely changed to include CLF. however, i don't know. in the USA branch or my lineage, i'm part of the 3rd generation. so the history side of it isn't clear but isn't unclear as well. yet, lau bun was the real deal and didn't teach gung fu to make money like people do today. he would have no reason to lie about the history of this form and the fact this his teachers wife taught it to him. in this respect, he gets all respect.

its the ones who wanted to make gung fu free and available to the american public that i would be leary of. Lau Bun, not so much.

Well there you go. You say "for all i know it could have been completely changed to include CLF" so you may not even recognize the original form if you saw it.

I'm sure I can't find another with legit lineage, but that isn't proof. You can't tell me what picture is on my wall in front of me. That does not mean there is no pic or that you are a fool. We are just so far removed you have no way of knowing. Now considering the sheer demographics of China and how many areas remain RURAL in a way we can't even fathom, it is more than fair to say that me, you and anyone else is very far removed from China as a whole. Nobody can study everywhere and talk to everyone. That form could have also ended up in other arts that are very closed systems. Or it could just look so different nobody realizes they came from the same place.

Now if you can show documented markers in the book form and show those markers in Jakes form, boom, you got him. And I'm not defending Jake, I'm sure he did learn it from Sin The who did learn it from the book. But that doesn't mean it isn't out there somewhere.

Not everyone has a camera and access to you tube, some have no desire to do any such thing. So how could anyone find proof of something like this without having just stumbled on it? Just coz you can't find it on you tube doesn't mean it isn't there.

Like the famous quote, absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. There are known unknowns and unknown unknowns. You have to take into consideration that statistically there is a chance that there are many unknown unknowns here. You followin' me?

[Iron Palm]

yet, lau bun was the real deal and didn't teach gung fu to make money like people do today. he would have no reason to lie about the history of this form and the fact this his teachers wife taught it to him.

So, the argument thus far is: SKT and/or Jake Mace's claims about the origin of the form they teach should not be believed because they propagate fake kung fu for money, and you know for a fact they stole the form in question from your lineage because it matches the fake kung fu your teacher put in a book he sold for money.

Is that about right?

[Iron Palm]

as right as about how much you take dik in ur as$
now THAT sounds about right.....

Is bigotry one of the "markers" you were referring to? Because I have yet to hear SKT, Jake Mace, or any of their students speak as you just have.

If that's the kind of behavior that can be expected from students of your "highly legit" lineage, I'm quite happy to be part of an illegitimate one.

[Empty_Cup]

...

DO A SEARCH ON THE CHINESE CHARACTERS. YOU'LL SEE JUST HOW MANY SCHOOLS TEACH NORTHERN SHAOLIN FIVE ANIMALS.

Did a search on these characters and only came up with this thread. Can you link to the results you found?

[PalmStriker]

its up to you to believe it or not. I challenge you to find the exact same form ANYWHERE outside my lineage. I don't mean people who bought the book or DVD. I'm talking about a 100% authentic and legitimate system out there. Not these kungarate's. no karate background or tons of caucasians only either.

i can sit back and confidently say you won't find it outside of my lineage. my challenge stands for anyone to do this.



i'd only agree to that if you can find me a lineage in true northern shaolin that does this form. if you DO, i would even thank you for finding it. it would be hella nice to know more background on a form we've been passion down for almost 100 years in our family alone.



no prob. i'm a big boy. not too ingorant either. :D

like i mentioned above....when a legitimate northern shaolin system can show me the exact same form..... i stand on my statements that this 5 animal form is exclusive to our system. still, i look forward to the day i'm proven wrong.



that would be a negative. for all i know it could have been completely changed to include CLF. however, i don't know. in the USA branch or my lineage, i'm part of the 3rd generation. so the history side of it isn't clear but isn't unclear as well. yet, lau bun was the real deal and didn't teach gung fu to make money like people do today. he would have no reason to lie about the history of this form and the fact this his teachers wife taught it to him. in this respect, he gets all respect.

its the ones who wanted to make gung fu free and available to the american public that i would be leary of. Lau Bun, not so much.
You are correct in your reasoning. They will come up with Zero documentation.

[Empty_Cup]

Did Lau Bun's teacher's wife ever say where she learned it from?

[Judge Pen]

I'm loving the discussion on the Five Animal Form. I know SD's version of this form and have compared it to DFW's book and video. I've had these very conversations with Sean about whether it was stolen from a book or it was possible that the form was somehow passed down to others that taught LB's wife's family. Frankly, at this point I don't know and don't really care anymore. I'll say this, the version the Jake does is very different than how I was taught. In fact most of his stuff is radically different in form, content and expression than I was taught. That is one of the biggest problems with SD; everyone does it their own way and SKT didn't seem to care to correct the divergent groups. Jake has excellent flexibility, balance and strength, but his stuff just looks off to me.

So I guess to sum up my comments, what I learned may be fake, but my fake version looks closer to DFW's fake version than Jake's fake version. :D

[Judge Pen]

it was passed down within her family. according to doc fai wong she came from a northern shaolin family, meaning her parents were also northern stylists.

That's specific.

[Judge Pen]

DFW's version isn't fake. WTF are you talking about? the version jake has isn't FAKE.....its STOLEN. jake is a self centered wierdo to me.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you said DFW did the sucsession of moves correctly, but the intent was wrong. I also thougth you said that the version that DFW put out on book and video weren't 100% correct and the differences are how you can tell whether someone really knew the form or had copied it from the book/video. I've I've misquoted you, then let me revise my prior comment: The version I know may have been stolen, but the way I did the stolen version is closer to DFW's than Jake's version of the stolen version. Is that better? ;)

[bodhi warrior]

What was the "Original" published date
of the first ptinting of DFW book?
English & Chinese versions.

OTD

Either 1989 or 1990. I can't remember. But I know it was one of those dates. I'll check when I get home.

[bodhi warrior]

I'm loving the discussion on the Five Animal Form. I know SD's version of this form and have compared it to DFW's book and video. I've had these very conversations with Sean about whether it was stolen from a book or it was possible that the form was somehow passed down to others that taught LB's wife's family. Frankly, at this point I don't know and don't really care anymore. I'll say this, the version the Jake does is very different than how I was taught. In fact most of his stuff is radically different in form, content and expression than I was taught. That is one of the biggest problems with SD; everyone does it their own way and SKT didn't seem to care to correct the divergent groups. Jake has excellent flexibility, balance and strength, but his stuff just looks off to me.

So I guess to sum up my comments, what I learned may be fake, but my fake version looks closer to DFW's fake version than Jake's fake version. :D

I agree. Jake is a great athlete. Strong and flexible. But the way he performs forms is much different than how I was taught. But that goes for all the people I've seen out west.

[Judge Pen]

Let me say this too: I'm not commenting or attempting to comment on Doc Fai Wong's version of the form. I've seen different CLF versions of 5 animal form and I have no idea which is a more accurate version of what what taught through LB or his wife. I know the version that is taught in SD (at least how I learned it) is very similar to DFW's version. There are differences in some of the stances, kicks, angles and sequence of movements, but they are minimal. It is possible that the form is stolen. It is possible that SKT learned it independantly (although I fully understand why people would rightly question that claim). All I know is that it was a very difficult form to learn and perform and it was one of my favorite SD forms that I knew. If it was stolen then I learned a very nice stolen form.

As far as the publication date, I haven't been able to figure that out. I own the video, but I only borrowed the book.

[OldandUsed]

Pompus little ass, isn't he?

[bodhi warrior]

Hung I Hsiang, an internal master in Taiwan years ago, had his students wear gi's and belts. He was a well respected master. He said he wanted his art to grow like karate.

[Judge Pen]

Is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HObQVRqrrhQ

supposed to be a completely different form than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2LrSzE6ZtY

[themeecer]

Hey Meecer I guess you never really had friends then did you. I enjoy meeting new people who love martial arts and hate losing contact with those I like . Sorry you dont have any friends. KC:)

KC ... I have plenty of friends ... but I also have a very busy life. When we become adults we don't have time to go hang out with friends. We spend most of our day working for our paycheck and then the remaining couple of hours with our family.

What is really sad is for an adult to cry that their friends have left them because they don't call them on the phone anymore.

[Judge Pen]

even if there are different versions of this form, they were all created by the people belonging to this (my) lineage. you won't find any other school doing our 5 animal form unless they learned it from the book or doc fai wong's video. outside of that, there is NO other source for this form but HUNG SING KWOON

And that is probably the truth. I can't disprove that nor am I trying to. Heck, based on what I know, I'm willing to concede that the probable origin of this version in SD is from DFW's book or video. I just think that just because we can't find examples on the internet or otherwise of a "100% LEGITIMATE" lineage that does this form doesn't mean it hasn't been taought elsewhere. If it came from Lau Bun's wife whose family were "nothern practitioners" it is certainly possible that it exists elsewhere and we just don't know about it.

Neither of us can prove a negative.

[MasterKiller]

even if there are different versions of this form, they were all created by the people belonging to this (my) lineage. you won't find any other school doing our 5 animal form unless they learned it from the book or doc fai wong's video. outside of that, there is NO other source for this form but HUNG SING KWOON

http://i.imgur.com/NBLuI.jpg

[Old Noob]

it seems like oldnoob is asking what DFW is doing that expresses your styles foundations well.

Thanks Lucas for the proper interpretation of my apparently bad english. I wasn't asking what was messed up about Jake's performance. It seems pretty clear that the universe of vastly superior martial artists on this forum has condemned his performance.

What I'd like to know, and what I haven't seen yet seen on these fora, is someone give a good explanation of why something that is good is good. People will say "good rooting," or "proper foundation," or "not karatefied." What I want to know is what about DFW's version properly shows the foundations of your system? What is he doing that is right? Isn't it more helpful to consider the right method than the wrong so long as one has an example of right?

[Old Noob]

Oh, also didn't mean to disappear fromt he conversation, which I agree is a good one applying the normal standard of conversation around here. I was at a lake house with no interwebs. It was actually quite nice.

[Old Noob]

This is what's wrong with the video jake is attempting to perform that belongs to MY lineage.


57 secs first is the placement of his hands in the beginning is very KARATE and not how we do it in CLF.i have no idea where he got that jumping kick thing from. LOL. its not in the original form.
1:00 -1:06 LOLOL.....wrong.
1:06 - 1:08 he is doing it like a prissy ballerina, focused too much on the prettiness of it. LOL
1:13 - 1:19 .....uh NO.....uh No-o! Uh Uh.....he mutilated it. ew.
1:26 - 1:35..... uh NO.....uh No-o! Uh Uh.....he mutilated it. ew.
1:40-1:44 LMAO.... ..... uh NO.....uh No-o! Uh Uh.....he mutilated it. ew.
1:46 uh no!
1:47 - 1:58....uh oh hell no! LOL
1:58 - 2:05........ OMG wtf??????

I'm not asking you about Jake. I'm asking you what about DFW's version of the form represents well the foundations of your system? What does he do right? Why is it right? How does it show qualities that are valued in your system? What are those qualities?

Are you not answering my questions because you really aren't understanding me or are you not answering because you can't or won't? All of those options are fine as long as you're up front about it. Your continued insistence on answering an unasked question, however, is curious.

[kungfujunky]

I think thats retarded HSK. You come on here and blast someone you dont know and when we ask for concrete examples of your massively impressive super duper real deal 5 animal you say no thanks?

Well WTF to you. You have added no value except to curse and lament and libel another person via a forum and provide no real data to assist others in their practice.

You come off like a spoiled child. Give us information to help, and your breakdown of Jakes form is not helpful at all, or stop complaining.

You come off very childish.

[kungfujunky]

if YOU are a shaolin DO student can you please tell me.......

WHAT DA FACK IS A FACKIN MONKEY BEAK? WHAT KIND OF FACKIN MONKEY HAS A FACKIN BEAK????????????? TELL ME DUDE!

IF MY SIFU EVER TOLD ME THIS TECHNIQUE WAS CALLED MONKEY RAISES TWIN BEAKS I'D JUST LAUGH AND CALL HIM A FACKIN CRACK POT AND NEVER COME BACK.

I am not a SD student nor can I tell you what a monkey beak is...I can surmise from the hand position, though that it is an easy way to refer to a backhand strike that monkeys make. Helps a student understand the positioning of the hand a bit. Would I refer to it that way? Nope.

Also I do not practice nor know the 5 animal form. But I would never treat others the way you have. I imagine your 5 animal looks like crap as out of shape as you are but you go ahead and keep judging.

Sharing knowledge is not a sin nor is giving a few pointers. I wouldnt want to learn the form from you at all. But body mechanics and spirit in forms is easy to understand if you make a few suggestions off of seen movements. no one asked you to give away the secret sauce...just a few pointers as to what was so horrible. And the response again was full of holier than though negativity.

[kungfujunky]

Would one of you children mind answering
the following questions in between tantrums?

"1. What was the "Original" published date
of the first ptinting of DFW book?, both
English & Chinese versions."

2. Would some one please provide the
ISBN numbers for the English/Chinese
versions. Either the 10 or 13 digit number
I can look it up for my self.

Thanks in advance
OTD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Doc-Fai

this says 1987

[kungfujunky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Doc-Fai

this says 1987

Bibliographic information
QR code for Shaolin Five Animals
Title Shaolin Five Animals
Authors Doc-Fai Wong, Jane Hallander
Edition illustrated
Publisher Unique Publications, 1988
ISBN 0865680809, 9780865680807
Length 130 pages

[Syn7]

as right as about how much you take dik in ur as$
now THAT sounds about right.....

FOR EVERYONE ELSE, YOU TAKE A LOOK. I COPIED TO EXACT SAME WORDS YOU WILL NEED TO SEARCH THE NAME OF THE NORTHERN SHAOLIN 5 ANIMALS FORM IN CHINESE. IT WOULD DEFINITELY BE IN CHINESE IF IT EXISTED IN CHINA RIGHT? OR BEING TAUGHT BY OTHER SCHOOLS OF OTHER LINEAGES, RIGHT? WELL HERE YA GO.

北派少林五形拳 (NORTHERN SCHOOL OF SHAOLIN OF 5 ANIMALS FIST.)

"北少林五形拳" (NORTHERN SHAOLIN 5 ANIMALS FIST")

TELL ME WHAT YOU COME UP WITH.

I'd rather you scanned the book and then took screen shots of jake and illustrate the markers not found anywhere else.

Can you do that, please?

[OTD]

Kungfujunky
Thanks for the Info. Do you know if it (the Book of 5 Animals)
was ever published by DFW in Chinese?
OTD

[Syn7]

i already marked to points he is doing it wrong. but will i tell anyone outside of my lineage how to perform it correctly especiially when they learned it from a book? that answer would be a NEGATIVO!!!!!

That isn't what I asked for. I don't wanty secrets. Just point out the markers in the book and how you know jakes form came from the book with said markers. I'm not asking for secrets. I'm asking you to disect to pieces of material that have been released to the public and show the proof.

If you already did that, I don't see it. Show me. The hardest part of this should be creating screengrabs. Not asking to reveal secrets. Markers aren't secrets. I don't need to know the true form. I wanna see the similarities between the two public versions that prove Sin The got it from the book. Simple, no?

[Syn7]

i pointed out exactly where in the sets he's doing it wrong. thats all i'm willing to give up in regards this set.

what i'm saying to you is this....if i take a screen grab of jake doing it wrong and i post a pic of how it should be done....jake and all of his shaollin do lineage will try to change this to the way it should be done. since they learned it from a book....all i have to say is tough tatties. i don't want anyone from their lineage to know they are doing it wrong.

You aren't hearin me, bro. I don't want to be shown anything the public isn't allowed to see. The book has been published. I don't want to know what the real form is like, I'm only concerned with what has been published by both parties involved. You aren't doing anything that jake couldn't do on his own because it is all public material.

Markers are small changes in order to put a signature on a form and also used to hide secrets. Agreed? Ok what I want is a marker from the book and then show me where jake is doing the marked movement. I will have to take your word for it that it is indeed a marker because you don't wanna show secrets and that's fine.

So I am not asking you to show me differences, I'm asking for similarities. You understand?

So when you see a marker in Jakes form you know that even if it was a very common form, you can show that the form was copied from the book because only those who got it from the book would have those markers.

Unless your argument goes like this: "nobody knows the form therefor you got it from us" and that is your proof that is thin. But if you can identify copied markers you can prove it is from that book. Otherwise you can't for sure pin point where he learned it. Feelin me?

[Syn7]

Thanx. I'll check that out. Any particular markers you feel like pointing out? I'm totally interested in this kinda sh1t.


BTW, It isn't that I don't believe you or respect your opinion, I'm just scrutinizing the evidence.


Can you patent a form? Is there legal framework in place to protect this sort of intellectual property? And if so, how is that realized when dealing with the old styles that are full of arguments and contradiction among practitioners that can show lineage? First come first serve? whoever can show earliest ownership wins? Like with documents and all that?

I'm talking about the actual forms, not the names of the forms. Can I take anyones form, change the name and sell it and face no legal repercussions?

[Syn7]

Word to the wise:
Be careful. If this is his business and you are not right or maybe even if you are, you could face suit. Defamation for starters. Just be careful and make sure that you are fully willing to commit to anything like this before you put it out there for everyone. It sounds dumb, but I know people who have hurt themselves this way. Over dumb sh1t. Considering people commit murder over martial lineage, a civil suit doesn't seem that far fetched. Especially when somebody like Jake comes along and has so much ego wrapped up in his whole business.

I know I asked for it, I'm just sayin...

[Shaolin Wookie]

So you miss me with you fat jokes.

We might not be able to miss.

[OldandUsed]

Reading the exchanges here in the forum recently regarding the 5 animal form is entertaining. I see a few martial artists asking intelligent questions of an individual that proclaims superior knowledge and credit as a martial artist, even to the point of using the term warrior in their screen name. What this petulant individual does/says is nothing remotely resembling the actions of a martial artist or a warrior. The petty insults, disparaging remarks and outright chalenges are in very poor taste and are actions of a bratty child instead of a warrior of honor. Oh yeah, I was a SD-er, but I am also a Judoka and a practicioner of Byakuren. I have also served putting boot to a$$ for God and country and have proven myself in that area as a warrior. So, to you, hsk, **** off. BTW, if a piece is published, put out to the public, isn't it understood that there will be those that will accept that gift and incorporate it into their own material? In other words, if the guy did not want folks to pick up the material, he should not have published it and put it out in order to make money off of it in the first place.

Okay, now I will sit back and listen to troll boy hsk whine some more.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Your youtube video comparing Jake Mace and your Grandmaster is interesting. I always like to find out where material is coming from, and how it was learned.

There are some problems, of course, with your argument.

#1 In a free market, we don't care if your Grandmaster Salvatero or whatever pulled the form out of his ass and called it a grandchild. What kind of "permission" does one need to pretend to be a tiger/crane? The form is hardly "strictly combat" and contains a lot of showy movements. Are you saying that your Grandmaster owns something that you learn--something that you put into your head? ?Your grandmaster owns your mind and its contents? If I memorize a poem by John Milton, does John Milton (who is dead 400 years) own the info in my head. If so, how? I do lots of one-legged squats, but I don't know the form. So must I ask permission of Grandmaster Salvatero if I do one-legged squats and pretend I'm a crane? Just silly.;)

This is why intellectual property is such a stupid idea. According to your rationale, I ought to be paying royalties (or homage) to the first half-man half-ape somewhere in the line of time who built a lean-to in some remote forest simply for the fact that I live under a roof today. Why not, according to your logic?

#2 Any competent martial artist could, in theory, learn a form from a book or a video. I don't consider it a good idea, simply for the fact that "forms" aren't that important when judged beside actual martial skills. But if I did know a tiger-crane form years ago, but forgot it when I....oh, I don't know...moved to Kentucky from Bandung, then would it be such a crime to fill in the blanks using a book or a video?

If this doesn't sound so outlandish, then the real question once again boils down to the problem of intellectual property and its legitimacy.

[OldandUsed]

Excellent, Wook.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've met some very talented "show" martial artists who regularly compete in martial arts circuits. Surprise surprise, many have learned forms from videos. Guess what? You can't tell the difference between their wushu and the wushu of the guy on the video. Sometimes the forms are traditional forms, put out by very "traditional" teachers. Still can't tell the difference between the "real thing" and the "fake thing" until you fight.

Shaolin makes up **** every day, it seems. Frog style? Scorpion style? The **** is whack, but it sells. Furthermore, outside of historical reasons, there is no reason that anyone should care whether Shaolin Temple actually "created" the forms they teach. Historically, it seems that Shaolin Temple has been very dishonest. Nearly every legend tells of a traveler or student who created a personal style during a stay in Henan or Fukien. "Shaolin" didn't create anything. It's not like there was a "Shaolin" committee in place, determining the "Shaolinness" of movements by democratic vote. Plus, if Shaolin was so good, then why did people keep making up new **** that Shaolin would later try to "patent" as their own? So clearly Shaolin isn't legit, according to your logic, since it routinely stole its best students' intellectual property. LOL.

Now, I can tell the difference between JM and the dude in your video, I'll grant you that. But it looks like the difference....dah...dah...dah....

between a guy (your dude) who practiced the form more than another guy and happens to be performing a deadly demo, and a guy teaching the form via video.


LOL.:eek:

[Shaolin Wookie]

haha i stand on my claims and challenge any and all to find another teacher outside of my lineage that authentically learned it from a different but authentic alternative souce and i'll do a public apology video. but it won't happen because we know whats ours. mr funny man.

Define "authentic." For example: I think boobs are real, as long as I can touch them. But many other people define the "realness" of boobs according to some other subjective standard.

I'm pretty sure that those other people, assuming heterosexuality here as an experimental constant, would agree with me if given the opportunity.

Serious point, BTW. Just an absurd example--reductio ad absurdum.



Here's a good question: If your lineage released a book detailing the movements of this particular form, why did it do so if it didn't believe that others could learn the form by book? Furthermore, if you were having trouble with a particular section of your form, and then decided to turn to your lineage's book for guidance, could it not be said that you (1) did not know the form prior to turning to the book for elucidation, and (2) actually learned the form from the book?

[OldandUsed]

Bravo! Excellent points!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Part of the problem involved here is the almighty trade union/govt. regulation mentality of the Chinese vs. the free market mentality of America. Chinese martial arts has a very disgusting history of using the government as a bargaining chip in business affairs (think of the Shaolin/Emperor connection, whereby these "poor" monks lived off of the largesse of public expropriation by despots, thereby justifying governmental theft and the suppresison of liberty). Crossing the Pacific didn't change things. Even GM Sin, for instance, tried to claim a patent for his forms in court in order to fight a former student who was teaching without GM Sin's authorization. GM Sin lost (if I recall correctly)---and rightly so. How could he claim property in another person's memories? He could only claim property in the curriculum, the courts claimed (and I think this, too, is an injustice). GM Sin taught some of his forms out across public access television in Kentucky. Seems to me that he believed that others could learn mere forms from video--just like HSK's teacher--but was somehow ****ed off that others felt they could teach without a certificate (a license for business). What makes GM Sin or HSK Warrior's teachers so great that they--and only they--should have the right to say what should be taught? If this very narrowminded menatlity were the norm, (well, it is the norm in public schoolhouses), then NOBODY would ever learn anything new, and we'd all be slaves to our ancestors. (again, a very Chinese notion).

"Learning" is never a top-to-bottom enterprise. Yes, you often need a teacher if you wish to learn, but not always, or else nobody would learn anything new. Experience and Theory go hand-in-hand, but you may learn more from one than the other at times. But "you" are always the central figure in the learning process. If you don't wish to learn, then you won't. And if your teacher tells you that you owe him for life just for what he has taught you, then you may politely decline payment and tell him that he is wrong. Maybe he'll learn something new--something valuable.

And if someone claims that his teacher was the **** when it came to tiger-crane, and that his lineage is the source of that info, then you may mark down the historical relevance of that fact. But nobody owes anybody anything in this affair.

And we might--in theory....note that I'm strictly speaking in theory here--tell a sassy sourpuss who has a lineage on his back and an axe to grind, to simply **** off, and do so politely--in his own room and off of the KFM forum.

[kwaichang]

I am glad everyone is talkin on this forum , this is a way of communicating with "friends" Since no one likes to call LOL , anyway I just thought I would let others know not to cry about it. As far as the form is concerned. Dont worry about it too much it is evident that the Jake dude has TKD background and is bouncing at the bottom of his 1 leg squat, he will inevitably end up injuring himself. The great thing about having a "real" teacher instead of a Book is one learns the proper mechanics of the movements. But I have to agree with SW and OaUsed no one "owns" a form. Once it is put out there it is theres to screw up or make better. So give Jake time and do not contend with those who would contend with you. KC:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

BTW...Shaolin Wookie is doing one-legged squats right now and pretending to be a crane. :p


**** a lineage!

[kwaichang]

Stop It SW I will sue u stole that from Meeeeeeeeeeee! KC:p

[Shaolin Wookie]

Something about kicking ass that always brings up the legal rights of the dead (or retired).

Everyone wants to kick ass through a ouiji board.

[Shaolin Wookie]

[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1186064]THE 5 ANIMAL FORM TAUGHT BY SHAOLIN DO AND JAKE RYDBERG AKA JAKE MACE IS STOLEN AND PROPAGATED IN THE WORST UGLIEST MANNER AS WELL.
[QUOTE]

I don't know Jake Mace (never even heard of him), but what are you accusing him of?

He "stole" information from a book? Did I steal from Leo Tolstoy when I just recalled the episode of Levin mowing wheat in Anna Karenina just now? Are all of our children thieves when we teach them to read, and worse, to remember the alphabet on cue? LOL.

Okay. So much for the theft charge. What's left after that accusation is trashed?

Let's boil this argument down to its particulars. You think that your teacher does a better job in video (and in book format) than Jake Mace, and that your teacher does his forms even prettier than Jake Mace. Because of this, your teacher is better and nobody should be able to compete with him in the particular market of this form. Your teacher, hands-down, does this form in the BEST PRETTIEST MANNER AS WELL.


I swear to god that I'm not trolling. This is literally your argument...you're just not smart enought to figure that out. If you feel that I'm making fun of you, then there is a reason--your argument is quite silly.

[MasterKiller]

Let's boil this argument down to its particulars. You think that your teacher does a better job in video (and in book format) than Jake Mace, and that your teacher does his forms even prettier than Jake Mace. Because of this, your teacher is better and nobody should be able to compete with him in the particular market of this form. Your teacher, hands-down, does this form in the BEST PRETTIEST MANNER AS WELL..

Actually, his point is Jake is A) missing some fundamental movements because the form shown in the books/video is incomplete and B) he doesn't have an indepth knowledge of the material or proper mechanics behind the movements.

Nice try, though.

[MasterKiller]

Define "authentic." For example: I think boobs are real, as long as I can touch them. But many other people define the "realness" of boobs according to some other subjective standard.


Video from Wookie's rhetoric class

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvd3aEsThbc

[Old Noob]

Actually, his point is Jake is A) missing some fundamental movements because the form shown in the books/video is incomplete and B) he doesn't have an indepth knowledge of the material or proper mechanics behind the movements.

Nice try, though.

Since HSK doesn't want to answer for fear of revealing the true kung fu to the unwashed masses, I'll ask you since you seem to know.

1. What "fundamental" movements are missing and what makes a particular movement fundamental?

2. What mechanics are missing from Jake and present in the other vid? Generally speaking, what makes up proper body mechanics in kung fu?

See, I'm getting a sneaking suspicion that phrases like "firm rooting," and "proper mechanics," are code words for "I don't really know what I'm talking about and am unable to articulate it specifically." This is the same thing as saying that one can't define obscenity but knows it when one sees it. Seriously, if you who are the major critics on this board really know somethign that everyone else doesn't, share! Why hold back? Trade secrets? That's crap.

At least KC pointed out that Jake was bouncing at the bottom of his one-legged squat. I don't know whether that's an example of poor body mechanics but at least its a specific meaningful criticism; something that is conspicuously absent from the normal course of conclusory back seat kung-fuing that goes on around here.

[OldandUsed]

Actually, I never bothered to learn that form as it did not interest me. More power to those that did, though. You can call me a loser if you like. That hurt. What have you ever done, really? hahahahah

[Old Noob]

Sore As$ loser. LOLOLOLOL.. Stop Stealing forms that don't belong to you!!!!!

Since Wookie's fairly lengthy remarks seem to have confused you, just answer the following simple question: If someone puts knowledge in a book and then sells it publically, how is it that a person who purchases that book and then uses the knowledge contained therein stealing?

BTW, we're assuming for the purposes of the argument that the form was from a book but I'm certain that Jake learned the form from Sin The and the Soards. Whether The learned it from a book, who the hell knows.

[Old Noob]

what i've NEVER done is steal a form from another lineage then repackage and rename it hoping they never discover what i did. SUCKA.



LMAo.....your fake kung fu lineage practices gung fu taught out of a book and messed it up HORRIBLY because there wasn't a video yet. LMAO......

Clearly you've won the interwebs.

[OldandUsed]

It is not stealing if it is already in the public and once you have taken possession of it you can call it whatever you like. Where are you from, anyway? Do they have any intelligent life there? If you do not like it and you want to call me a loser, then trot your happy butt up to my dojo/kwoon/dojang/gym and we will work it out between us. Until then, you are the loser and a wimpy one, at that. **** off, troll boy.

[MasterKiller]

Since jake tried to LIE about its source, its THEFT. he took something from US and isn't giving the credit to where its due. DOC FAI WONG'S BOOK. and the funniest thing is JAKE HAS THE **** ALL WRONG because he DID learn if from PICTURES. And we're laughing because he no clue. thats the result for never learning it from the source. oh wel.......as my sifu says...."I GOT MINE"

Dude, you understand that Sin The took a **** ton from books, and passed it on as his own material, right? Even had these suckers brainwashed into thinking it was all original Shaolin before it all got wushu-ized.

I'm sure he learned it from a guy who learned it from Sin The who took it from a book.

[kwaichang]

I believe the originator of a style or form would want his / her art to be mimiced and copied and not hold it against someone who is trying to train in their principles and form. Some cant train with the so callled real masters and do the best they can. So I think Warrior should be happy that anyone wants to "steal" his or his systems forms. or form. so Just be happy and commend othhers for respecting and admiring the form so much that he/she wants to learn and teach it. KC

[kwaichang]

Typically The only time people get mad when someone mimics or copies something is because they cant make as much money as they would have. It has nothing to do with Honor or Right or Wrong it is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ KC

[kwaichang]

I learned that form fom GMThe in 94, I would love to get it right , but I dont teach it but Love to train on it. KC

[kwaichang]

Even chopped up it is still an awesome form do not judge what we do by Jake , mine is far different from his , I do not put much into what I saw of his skill. KC

[OldandUsed]

That is very gracious of you hsk.

[kwaichang]

Cool I will se ya next year I am hoping to be there then. KC will call

[Judge Pen]

I've been told that SD first taught this form out in the 1970s but who knows if that is true or not. IF Sin The learned the form from a book at then passed it off as a form he learned from his teacher, then it isn't exactly stealing; it's lying.

But assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct, and despite the fact that DFW published both a video and a book of the form (markers, changes and all) and that practing that form is somehow steal stealing, then the proper accuasation for people like me (who learned it from my teacher who learned it from Sin The) is receiving stolen goods. Not nearly the same mens rea.

[Judge Pen]

Shameful to say the least.

But i still want to know what fakkin monkey on the face of this planet has a beak.!!!!! :D

I agree that a lie is shameful and I don't condone any lies that have been told in the name of Sin The or SD. But frankly, many people who honestly and dillgently trained take their teacher at their word.

HSK, would you have a problem if Jake would have said, I learned it from DFW's book? Also, I want you to assume that the way that I learned and performed DFW's form was as accurate and faithful to the book/video. I understand that there are markers in the form and the sequence is off, but aside from the intentional changes, what would be the problem. If my intent, timing, flow, stances, strikes, rooting, balance and power are all accurate translations then haven't I accomplished the intent behind the form even if it's DFW's modified propriatary version? (I think I know what you will say, but I think its a constructive conversation worth having)

[Judge Pen]

No. if he said from the get go to every student he passed it on to that he learned it from doc fai wong's book i'd have zero problems.



regardless of what doc fai wong put into the book, you learned a someone who learned it from the book. you still have the form. but you have learned some karate style version of what was in the book. since i come from the very family the form belongs to i know what to look for. but being lied to by the teacher doesn't say much about his character.



if you happened to learn it how jake does it, then i do have a huge problem with it. because he isn't representing our form in its proper light. it isn't for him to do what he wishes with it. give the proper source its due respect and we will see where it goes from there.

DFW put out the step-by-step video. If one could follow that video properly then aside from the markers, isn't it an accurate representation of the form? Or did DFW show improper mechanics in the video to keep the good stuff out of other's hands? I've spent quite a bit of time looking at the youtube versions of this form. You have your sifu and you have DFW. You have Jake. I have my own version and my teacher's version. I can tell it's the same form, but I see where we all do it slightly differently because of our skill, age or mechanics. The most import element to look for, imo, is the intent and flow of the form. The stances and balance in transition. Power can be deceptive (especially in looking at a form on video) but I think it's worse to see someone trying too hard to be powerful instead of being smooth and fluid and in control of your movement.

I'd love to see you put a clip of this form up for comparison. Not necessarily the first sequence as the balance and strenght is very difficult (especially if you've had a past back injury) but just a few sequences like Dino does to show the flow of the form based on your understanding.

[Judge Pen]

see, the Sifu Joe Bender does our form as well. and the best thing about it, is he gives my lineage is due credit as its source. he doesn't try to say he learned it from some obscure master in china that he doesn't know how to contact anymore.

He does, but his strength and balance aren't as good as Jake's. And you were very critical of his represnetation as well.

[Judge Pen]

I can't presently locate a video of me doing the form, but I do have some stills of me doing the form back in 2006 at an open-style tournament. You won't be able to tell much from them, but here they are anyway.

[Judge Pen]

i don't have the problem with doc fai wong nor have i ever complained about him and our 5 Animal form. where did your and your teachers version come from? it was either the book or the DVD. CLAIM IT. SPEAK THE TRUTH. i will tell you and your teacher together face to face that the form you are practicing is OUR form. you will never in your life or his life come up with an alternative source for this form outside of my lineage.



my back injury has nothing to do with jake or anyone in Shaolin Do practicing a form someone found in doc fai wong's book.

at 2:19 of this VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiQOjKUTSaQ) you can see me doing a section of our 5 Animal form.

I don't know for certain where our form came from. I learned it in 2005 from my teacher. He learned it from Sin The. I don't know where Sin The learned it. If I did, either from the book/DVD or elsewhere, I would claim it. Until my teacher or Sin The tells me that Sin The learned it from a book, then I am not speaking from personal knowledge and all I can say is where I learned it. I will not argue with you that it is your form. I never said differently. Nor will I say that old masters in China are doing the same form. Haven't seen anyone do it but your lineage, Bender, and SD.

I think the first sequence of the form is very taxing to get right. That's all I was saying about your back--that is a difficult part of the form to do correctly and not struggle with the balance and strength.

[Judge Pen]

i don't have the problem with doc fai wong nor have i ever complained about him and our 5 Animal form. where did your and your teachers version come from? it was either the book or the DVD. CLAIM IT. SPEAK THE TRUTH. i will tell you and your teacher together face to face that the form you are practicing is OUR form. you will never in your life or his life come up with an alternative source for this form outside of my lineage.



my back injury has nothing to do with jake or anyone in Shaolin Do practicing a form someone found in doc fai wong's book.

at 2:19 of this VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiQOjKUTSaQ) you can see me doing a section of our 5 Animal form.

the last picture you put up is straight up KARATE. if you don't think you're doing the Fu Jow correctly, just ask my sifu yourself. matter of fact, you can speak with my sifu about any further questions in regards to the form that belongs to our lineage.

Thanks for the criticism. What is incorrect about my technique (from a CMA perspective)? Is the the depth of my stance? The angle of the technique? The position of my fingers? What are the markers of "karate" in that technique? By the way, what branch of karate are you referring to? Gojo-ryu, shotokan, shorin-ryu? Another branch?

[Judge Pen]

I know where YOUR Shaolin 5 Animal form comes from even if you don't. if you, jake mace, or the ENTIRE Shaolin DO schools think i'm lying, then provide me with the name, location of someone outside of my lineage that learned it from some other authentic shaolin 5 animal source. you can't. its not that you won't, YOU CAN'T. and there is an EXCELLENT REASON for that. IT BELONGS TO THE LAU BUN LINEAGE.

Hands down.

I don't think you're lying. I have not said you were lying. All I said was "I don't know" which is a pretty honest thing to say. If you are convinced of your convictions, then good. I'm not trying to argue the lineage with you. I have never doubted that the form belongs to the Lau Bun lineage.

[Judge Pen]

i'm not qualified to teach you what you're doing wrong. go ask my sifu.

Ok, but he isn't here on the forum answering questions. Since you told me what I was doing was wrong from a CMA perspective then I assumed that you would be "qualified" to tell me how I was wrong. Since you told me what I was doing was "karate" I assumed that you could tell me how it was karate. If you aren't qualified, then why make the statement in the first place?

[Judge Pen]

well, since you don't know, then you might want to listen. the form you have been taught by someone at Shaolin Do taught you a form from the American Hung Sing Kwoon as founded by Professor Lau Bun in 1939. The form was taught to Lau Bun by his sifu's wife as repayment forall the great care he provided for her and her husband (his teacher).

No one out of my lineage knows this form as it is exclusive to us. You won't find another sifu from any part of the world not related to the lau bun lineage in any way shape or form practicing this set legitimately. the fact that shaolin do has been practicing this exact form and lying to the students about its source and origin is SHAMELESS and DECEITFUL.

You will never find another authentic source for the Lau Bun lineage Shaolin 5 Animal form outside of the American Hung Sing Kwoon.

I have been listening. You don't have to convince me of your lineage or the legitimacy of this form. Really we're just going in circles on this point.