Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[The Willow Sword]

Why do you sit down with one of them sometime and we will discuss the finer points of getting that bug out of your a$$.

This reads like a veiled threat to me :rolleyes: haha but i like the give and take here with you GT. But you know something? It really doesnt change anything. Your school will always be less than what it really could be in the martial arts realm.
because of what your school claims and how it is taught it will ALWAYS be the fake shaolin school and non cma.

And you and the rest of your "kin" will go around in forums like these reasoning and rationalizing what the rest of us already know. this is entertainment here you DO realize that? You guys are entertainment,,with the exception of a few Sd people here who seem to have a decent head on their shoulders.

It must be hard for you GT and the other good soldiers there to know that you have absolutely NO respect in the martial arts community,,and if yoour school even tried to go outside your perspective range you would get laughed off the floor.
Its aggravating i know that you are unable to have a decent conversation with people who actually KNOW about shaolin martial arts and chinese martial arts for that matter.
I will bet it is also aggravating when you are talking with some other martial artists and they ask you what you study and you tell them that the dynamic changes in the conversation,,it then becomes a "justification" session.
Can you fight GT? well im sure that you can,,any fool can put up their fists and assume a stance and go at it...but that is about all that you are capable of. and there is always someone better isnt there?
hey i have realized that fact of life and i have no regrets in my challenges and my losses and my victories,,,the regret i do have is that i allowed myself to be in your organization for as long as i did.

as far as letting things go GT? whether i want to accept it or not Sd will be a part of me,,even though i disregard everything i was taught there now,,but if i can use my experiences there to my advantage and educate people whenever i am asked about your school i will do so and i am GLAD at EVERY time i persuade a person to look elsewhere and it makes me feel GOOD to know that i have steered someone to utilize his/her time dedication and money to something else WORTHY OF IT. :)


Peace,,,TWS

[BM2]

That's me with the monk spade from Taiji Legacy 2003.

I'm 32 years old, 6'0, 175 lbs. I have a 32-in. waist.

You want a closer look? Come to OKC.

Now, you pony up old man.

Actually, it would be better if you did one without a shirt as I will be posting. Just a little more time with the Adobe photoshop and I will be done.

[Starchaser107]

nice kick bm2.
I wish I were that flexible,
but alas the blasted pepsi cola continues to ruin my martial arts day by day.
In 2 years I'll be 30 I'll post a pic then if this thread is still alive :p

HAHAHAHA! :cool:

[MasterKiller]

What are you, like 18 in it? That's a big step back from 44....or even 32.

I posted a recent pic.

When I was 18, I was pretty cut, too.

I would post a 26 year-old pic, but I was just 6 then and it probably wouldn't do much for you. :rolleyes:

Like I said, let's see you now, old man.

[BM2]

LOL!
I meant I would post the one I am "doctoring" with photoshop! Still trying to find some pic on the web so that I can can switch heads with it!
Here I am polishing off the last of the strawberry shortcake when I had to read that. :eek:
Edit: Man I can't believe I look this bad :eek:

[cerebus]

Dam BM2, you need to do some pushups, or lift some weights... or something. :p

[Starchaser107]

Or take up kung fu.


haha jus kidd'n
couldnt resist.

[BM2]

That's what happens when you get into these "challanges" ! Remember to post your pic!

[Starchaser107]

It's in that issue of kung fu magazine that you're holding up :eek:

[Golden Tiger]

:rolleyes: ................

[Judge Pen]

For instance with the Horses Mane maneuver when you are finished with the hand movements and the twist to the side, it is taught that there is a stop before moving back the other way. Now, I'm sure the higher ups don't do it this way, but nobody really watches and offers critiques or corrections while the students are going about forms or moves. So, the result is very "sharp" stops between each move. Comparing this to other tai chi I have seen, mostly on video, it is very different.


Nope, it should flow together. Granted most Sd people do 24 slower than others, but the flow should still be present.

Meece, I'll show you 24. It's a good introductory form and flows right into 64 so you don't even have to stop when practicing the two. ;)

And yes brother Sean it does depend on the style, but all that's been taught out in SD is Yang and Chen (and whatever sister Buddha fist is).

[Judge Pen]

as for Buddah fist in SD. that was the ONLY form that i really liked in the system,,but it has NOTHING to do with chen style tai chi nor is it a sister to tai chi chuan. it is another hybrid of what sd likes to do and claim as the "lost" forms.
although i did see Mullins do the Sd buddha fist form and he did it rather well,,AND the SD 14th white crane. i also liked that one as well. seems to be the only form in sd that actually looks and feels like real CMA, in my opinion.

Master Mullins learned those forms first and then taught them out. He traveled with Master Sin in China and Indonesia during that time. Those forms are very difficult to do correctly, but among the prettier and more flowing forms we have.

20 minutes is too long. It usually takes me 10 to 12 to do 24. I don't think it inhibits chi flow and relaxiation if done right, but it is harder to remain relaxed doing it at that speed. It does increase balance, flexibility, and focus.

[Starchaser107]

It's in the magazine, a picture from taiji legacy last year. A forum members pic, I'm there on the ground in the group shot with sow choy, norther practicioner, philbert and meatshake. Just look for the fellow that looks just like my avatar, it will say starchaser107.
I can't find my disk to upload any pics and consequently I'm very grumpy. :mad:

[MasterKiller]

Meece, I'll show you 24. It's a good introductory form and flows right into 64 so you don't even have to stop when practicing the two. ;)

Save yourself a trip. He can watch it here:

http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head5e/index.htm

[Jhapa]

Save yourself a trip. He can watch it here:

http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head5e/index.htm

it looks different from what i was taught at SD.

[Judge Pen]

it looks different from what i was taught at SD.

It doesn't look too different than the way I was taught. Granted there are appreciable differences, but nothing earth-shattering. I've seen students of William Chen do this form differntly than the lady in the video and then the way I perform 24. Even though it's a compulsory form, it does differ slightly from teacher to teacher.

[Starchaser107]

very very true

[MasterKiller]

Teachers tend to mark forms. For instance, my Sifu added a slight arm movement to move 13. Right Heel Kick. That way, if he sees someone do it that way, he knows either he taught them or one of his students did.

Most of our forms are taught 'marked' for that purpose.

[wdl]

it looks different from what i was taught at SD.

Like JP said, it's not that far off.

Actually there are several things about the form I like better about the way she does it, then there are several ways I like the way I've been taught better. But they are subtle differences.

Examples would be, I like the way I've got Posture 10(waving hands to the clouds) better, particularly the footwork. However I like her golden rooster/snake creeps down the hole sequence better than mine.



-Will

[Judge Pen]

Examples would be, I like the way I've got Posture 10(waving hands to the clouds) better, particularly the footwork. However I like her golden rooster/snake creeps down the hole sequence better than mine.


I think her flexibility and control have a lot to do with that Will.

[themeecer]

Thanks JP and MK. I do have the 24 forms on DVD by Paul Lam. I just never had the need to learn it. If I was ever going to learn a form from a DVD ... his would be the one to use. There shouldn't be much variation in the way it is done on the DVD than the way it was taught out to SD since it was created less than 50 years ago. I have learned some of his tai chi for arthritis form. I had a student who dropped out but who is coming back who has horrible knees and really has never done anything athletic in her life. I've also looked into attending one of his seminars. I like the fact that he had delt with this same problem and overcame it and he is also a medical doctor.

Now chen tai chi is another story ... I am chomping at the bit to learn that. I hope it is taught out again. Though I am sure I will be regretting these words when I'm halfway through that ridiculously long form.

[Judge Pen]

Now chen tai chi is another story ... I am chomping at the bit to learn that. I hope it is taught out again. Though I am sure I will be regretting these words when I halfway through that ridiculously long form.

I'm learning Chen now. It's a great form with lots of fighting applications, but it gets so redundant in places that it's hard to keep it all straight in your mind.

[wdl]

I think her flexibility and control have a lot to do with that Will.


I know it does with the golden rooster/snake creeps down the hole sequence. The way I apply the footwork out of the Number 10 movement is more pronounced in how I I was taught. Like how side B of the 1st Hua Two-Man set steps in and stands while countering the joint lock. The way I've got the 24 set now it's easier for me to thinking about the application of the footwork while I do the 24 set than the way she does it. I like her snake creeps down the hole because it's prettier. Daniel teaches it like that, I think I might start doing it that way. LOL

-Will

[Judge Pen]

I know it does with the golden rooster/snake creeps down the hole sequence. The way I apply the footwork out of the Number 10 movement is more pronounced in how I I was taught. Like how side B of the 1st Hua Two-Man set steps in and stands while countering the joint lock. The way I've got the 24 set now it's easier for me to thinking about the application of the footwork while I do the 24 set than the way she does it. I like her snake creeps down the hole because it's prettier. Daniel teaches it like that, I think I might start doing it that way. LOL

-Will

I think that I'm guilty of modifying my forms slightly based upon the applications that I recognize in the form. If I see a throw in a certina sequence, then I start to favor the techniques that imply that technique and make them more prominent. Example: Short Form # 12.

[MasterKiller]

BM2,
That's about as good as I can get it. The lighting in my bedroom is dark so the flash fuks with the mirror. Anyway, where's that Hedge video....? :p

[Judge Pen]

Nice tat man. I didn't know you were the arm band type, but, then again, you are from Oklahoma! :D

[MasterKiller]

Celtic band on the left, celtic cross on the right. And maybe a couple of others I'm not showing until you buy me dinner. ;)

[Fu-Pow]

BM2,
That's about as good as I can get it. The lighting in my bedroom is dark so the flash fuks with the mirror. Anyway, where's that Hedge video....? :p
















*Vomits*


















*Vomits again*


















*Vomits bile*

[MasterKiller]

Too much man for you, Fu?

[The Willow Sword]

you guys showing off your bare chest and tats and all and your comments are wayyy too h0m0'esq. :eek: :eek: unless you guys ARE h0m0s and then i respect your choice in life and what you were apparently born with,,or some sh!t like that.

If your not then WTF is the matter with you guys??????? :confused:


PEACE,,,TWS

[themeecer]

It is a sausage love fest in here.

[Starchaser107]

The one time everybody seems to be getting along fine is when everyone is naked. :D
bless.

[Starchaser107]

oh yeah ,
and cool tatoos MK

[wdl]

I think that I'm guilty of modifying my forms slightly based upon the applications that I recognize in the form. If I see a throw in a certina sequence, then I start to favor the techniques that imply that technique and make them more prominent. Example: Short Form # 12.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Then there are things that become hibitual that aren't there. Watch when I test next week, see if I don't put a cover/shed in with Number 4 sparring technique before the sweep. That is, if you guys are awake over there while all of the brown sashes are doing that stuff. lol

-Will

[BM2]

Well MK I didn't really think you would do it. I guess I have to fake that Hedge video and put in my two boys :D I'll get the fake blood out too!
LMAO at the last couple of pages of this thread, at least it got light hearted for a change. While I may disagree with you most of the time, I will admit that there are some valid points raised by you. But you need to ask yourself this.................Do I really want to be in agreement with the likes of fred stanford? That ole fish eye fool? I just as well start calling you Grady ;)

[wdl]

Well MK I didn't really think you would do it. I guess I have to fake that Hedge video and put in my two boys :D I'll get the fake blood out too!

Just use Macho Man Randy Savage and Jake the Snake. They're unemployeed and cheap these days. :D

-Will

[Fred Sanford]

But you need to ask yourself this.................Do I really want to be in agreement with the likes of fred stanford? That ole fish eye fool? I just as well start calling you Grady

Don't start with me. pretty much everyone on this forum can see what shaolin-do is(n't).

You ever think that maybe Sin The got himself into such great shape to draw attention away from the fact that his martial arts knowledge really isn't all so great? I never have cared much for shaolin kung fu but his stuff is so mind numbingly bad that I'm almost at a loss for words, almost.

:D

[themeecer]

You ever think that maybe Sin The got himself into such great shape to draw attention away from the fact that his martial arts knowledge really isn't all so great?

Sure, and the rest of us learned to fight real well to cover up that fact as well. :rolleyes:

[cerebus]

Aah yes. Being able to fight makes it "Authentic Shaolin". I guess I keep forgetting that part... :rolleyes:

[themeecer]

Aah yes. Being able to fight makes it "Authentic Shaolin". I guess I keep forgetting that part... :rolleyes:
Well you keep changing the criteria. Either you don't like our lineage or you don't think we 'understand' our forms or you don't think we can fight. I can't keep up with it all. I believe our lineage, I have compared the forms I specialize in to other practioners out there and found it to be the same, and I have used it to defend myself on multiple occasions. Satisfies me. Heck, you can argue lineage all day long while I am knocking your head into the ground, if you like. Since that is what some of you have proved you spend the most time at. (And no .. I don’t want to knock your head into the ground)

[cerebus]

Well, two of your points are things I've never argued against. These are: whether or not SD people can fight (as with ANY martial art, some can, some can't) and whether you understand your own forms (though you may not understand the forms from other arts which were added to SD by Sin The).

However while I have no problem with a martial art patterning some of what it does after the traditional arts of China, I'll never condone people claiming their art to be something which it most clearly is not. I just don't think students should be given false information about their art because they then take it to be the truth, in spite of a vast amount of evidence to the contrary (you are a good example of this yourself).

[MasterKiller]

You ever think that maybe Sin The got himself into such great shape to draw attention away from the fact that his martial arts knowledge really isn't all so great?Actually, I think it's pretty evident from the last few pages that he trimmed down, tanned, and got those muscles because he wanted to be a movie/TV star.

It looks like he has always been into working out and keeping fit, in some form or another. His work ethic, if nothing else, seems solid.


Well MK I didn't really think you would do it. Admit it. You guys just figured because I'm in front of a computer all day and into Star Wars that I'm some pudgy doughboy.

Just because I'm not very good at kung fu doesn't mean I don't work at it. :D

[Judge Pen]

Admit it. You guys just figured because I'm in front of a computer all day and into Star Wars that I'm some pudgy doughboy.


Nah, that would be an indictment against most of the online kung fu world.



Just because I'm not very good at kung fu doesn't mean I don't work at it. :D

That's something we can agree on.

[MasterKiller]

and I have used it to defend myself on multiple occasions. What kind of life are you leading that you've had to defend yourself on multiple occassions? Ihaven't been in a real fight in years. I think you need Jesus.

[BM2]

BM2,
That's about as good as I can get it. The lighting in my bedroom is dark so the flash fuks with the mirror. Anyway, where's that Hedge video....? :p

Video forthcoming.... ;)

I'm having trouble editing it and don't know how to use the software to upload it to the web so it may be awhile :eek: And if everyone keeps on posting about it then I will not put it on the web :p

[Golden Tiger]

Video forthcoming.... ;)

I'm having trouble editing it and don't know how to use the software to upload it to the web so it may be awhile :eek: And if everyone keeps on posting about it then I will not put it on the web :p


I think I have some vid of BM2 back when he was a young'en. If I was able to blue spot the others in the vid to protect the innocent, I would have to upload it.

[Starchaser107]

for topless shots I charge 250,000 a piece like Halle Berry.

[MasterKiller]

for topless shots I charge 250,000 a piece like Halle Berry.
No good. You must show nipples to be in the secret squirrel club.

[Judge Pen]

Is that Philbert in the background? He's wearing the same Sam top as my teacher! :D

[MasterKiller]

Yeah, that's Philbert. And that's a gay Wing Chun on-guard stance, too. :p

[Starchaser107]

Since you guys have been so nice what the heck. :D

[MasterKiller]

You got me and BM2 beat in the pec department. But at least I have a manly hairy chest. Chicks dig the fur, baby.

[Starchaser107]

I'm so hairless it's not funny. Man i'm 5 months shy of 28 and I don't even have a full beard yet. My moustache just started to take some real substance. It's a sad , sad state of things, so i try to compensate where I can. :(

[Judge Pen]

But at least I have a manly hairy chest. Chicks dig the fur, baby.

So do birds, fleas and small rodents, but I digress.

[MasterKiller]

Pony up, JP. Let's see those nipples.

[Judge Pen]

Pony up, JP. Let's see those nipples.

That post has disturbed me in so many ways I can't even say. But I have to confess that my nipples are covered with fur too.

[Fred Sanford]

Sure, and the rest of us learned to fight real well to cover up that fact as well.

Oh yea I forgot, what's your move golden cyborg pounds sand? something like that?

[red5angel]

this thread is starting to get really, really disturbing. I can't get a picture of JP and MK standing in front of webcams pinching their own nipples.....blech! :o :eek: :(

[wdl]

Yeah, that's Philbert. And that's a gay Wing Chun on-guard stance, too. :p


The gayness is added too becaues the sam is like two sizes too big. :D


-Will

[Starchaser107]

this thread is starting to get really, really disturbing. I can't get a picture of JP and MK standing in front of webcams pinching their own nipples.....blech! :o :eek: :(

Yet Ghey-ly you can't stop yourselves from looking. :rolleyes:

[themeecer]

What kind of life are you leading that you've had to defend yourself on multiple occassions? Ihaven't been in a real fight in years. I think you need Jesus.
Hehe Actually I have him even though I unfortunatly don't always act like him. How do I get myself in these situations? Heck if I know. Sometimes it has been in clubs with guys who have alcohol induced confidence and increased rudeness towards my dates. Actually clubs in various cities have constituted most of my confrontations as of late. In all other situations I can normally avoid things escalating to that point since I try to come off as a friendly guy, which is easier to pick up on when one is not full of alcohol, hormones, and loud music playing. Had some outside "in the streets." (Though the metropolis of Somerset doesn't have "streets.") Maybe I need to work more on coming off friendly.

[Golden Tiger]

this thread is starting to get really, really disturbing. I can't get a picture of JP and MK standing in front of webcams pinching their own nipples.....blech! :o :eek: :(


Please, for the love of god, get back on thread and bash SD. This is just wrong...so wrong in so many ways.

[Starchaser107]

hey don't ask for it if you can't handle it. ;)

[wdl]

Thinking good thoughts.... good thoughts..... good thoughts.....

Eliza Dushku...... Brooke Burke..... Kirsten Dunst......

oh much better. :)


-Will

[Starchaser107]

Don't forget Christina Milian

oooh baybee! :cool:

[wdl]

Don't forget Christina Milian

oooh baybee! :cool:


ooooooooooo

[BM2]

Don't know about the rest of y'all but I am LMAO. :D
I can see Gene now, sickos....they are just plain sickos and they are on my forum :eek:

[Fred Sanford]

Maybe I need to work more on coming off friendly.

Or work on not coming off like a wuss.

[MasterKiller]

Since you guys have been so nice what the heck. :D

What's your tats?

[Starchaser107]

On my arm, an ancient symbol representing the sun, and in the middle of that a variation of my western zodiac symbol Leo which i flipped. (This tattoo was made by dipping a syringe in india ink and repeatedly piercing the skin.)
On my chest a more contemporary line drawing of the sun inside it a Lotus.(By method of Tattoo Gun)

[red5angel]

Masterkiller, I didn't know you visited Germany! (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7206279/)

[GeneChing]

What is it with nipplage and SD threads? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35905&page=3)

[wdl]

What is it with nipplage and SD threads? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35905&page=3)

It's because the horse has been flogged to death.


-Will

[MasterKiller]

What is it with nipplage and SD threads? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35905&page=3)

BM2 started it.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782&page=57&pp=15

So far, only him, SC107 and I have been man enough to show our nipples. The rest of you boys need to pony up.

[wdl]

So far, only him, SC107 and I have been man enough to show our nipples. The rest of you boys need to pony up.

I don't do porn. :rolleyes:

-Will

[Starchaser107]

I don't do porn. :rolleyes:

-Will

pronounced : "I'm so out of shape that I'm ashamed to put myself on display" :D

[wdl]

pronounced : "I'm so out of shape that I'm ashamed to put myself on display" :D


ROFL. Well you know, it's still winter here and those Christmas and Thanksgiving pounds are still around. It also means I'm whiter than casper the ghost. It's rained so much here this winter I've not been able to get out either. So, if you want to be blinded by the light I'll be happy to enlighten you and do you a favor. :p

I'm single, I need a woman. If I thought that snapping a shot of my nipples and putting them here would get me a date I'd do it in a heartbeat. I seriously doubt anyone else who's single and looking for a date even if they have Jesse Ventura's nipples are going to score off this thread either. :D

-Will

[MasterKiller]

Maybe JP could keep you warm with his ewok-nipples.

[Starchaser107]

Gunda. Gunda
Acha nipple Gunda :cool:

[Starchaser107]

Judge Pen practicing Spear Form (http://www.bobmcleod.com/ewok.gif)

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen practicing Spear Form (http://www.bobmcleod.com/ewok.gif)

Nah, I'm much taller than that. More like Chewbacca than an Ewok.

[sean_stonehart]

Nah, I'm much taller than that. More like Chewbacca than an Ewok.


Nah... you ain't that tall... maybe like more Obi Wan without a nice backwaxing...

[Judge Pen]

Nah... you ain't that tall... maybe like more Obi Wan without a nice backwaxing...

I'm taller than you.

[sean_stonehart]

Indeed you are... but not Wookie difference in height... :)

[David Jamieson]

I'm so hairless it's not funny. Man i'm 5 months shy of 28 and I don't even have a full beard yet. My moustache just started to take some real substance. It's a sad , sad state of things, so i try to compensate where I can. :(

no worries man, once you're done with the HRT and the testosterone treatments and you get the wiggler installed, you'll grow hairs in places that you couldn't before the operation. :D

[wdl]

Indeed you are... but not Wookie difference in height... :)

Last time you corner judged up here weren't you in the ring with master reid and the white/yellow belts? Remember Wookie? The one that got DQ'd for excessive contact with master mullins standing there beside that ring?

-Will

[Starchaser107]

no worries man, once you're done with the HRT and the testosterone treatments and you get the wiggler installed, you'll grow hairs in places that you couldn't before the operation. :D

thanks so much for the encouragement.
I feel so much better about myself now.

[David Jamieson]

just remember to shave your runway! :eek:

[MasterKiller]

just remember to shave your runway! :eek: You coming in for a landing?

[David Jamieson]

ewww, no, no, no, no...

just a reminder to be courteous and it keeps yer shorts clean.

[sean_stonehart]

Yep that was me & I thought it more a East Coast Sasquatch than a Wookie I was looking at... :eek:

[wdl]

Yep that was me & I thought it more a East Coast Sasquatch than a Wookie I was looking at... :eek:

ROFL. Wookie's a big guy. He has procreated recently and there is now a junior Miss Wookie. Scary thought. A female wookie.

-Will

[GeneChing]

Surely you remember the Star Wars Christmas Special? We got to meet Chewbacca's family in that, including his dirty-old-wookie pops, named Itchy, who uses some sort of cybersex machine featuring Diane Carroll, plus the first appearance of Boba Fett. It was so bad that Lucas had it all pulled - a grim prophesy about what was to come from Lucasfilms...

[sean_stonehart]

Surely you remember the Star Wars Christmas Special? We got to meet Chewbacca's family in that, including his dirty-old-wookie pops, named Itchy, who uses some sort of cybersex machine featuring Diane Carroll, plus the first appearance of Boba Fett. It was so bad that Lucas had it all pulled - a grim prophesy about what was to come from Lucasfilms...


Oh Crap yes!!! "A Star Wars Christmas" was the name... the Empire did a home invasion on Chewie's place... didn't the cast make a special appearance in the last 30 seconds or so??

[Starchaser107]

Hey keep it above board. Nipples are fine but posterior isn't.
Why, cause I said so.
I'll have to ask Gene to speak to you about Colons.

[wdl]

"A Star Wars Christmas", YES! I've never heard of this. I must see if I can download it. Was this an SNL skit?

-Will

[Judge Pen]

"A Star Wars Christmas", YES! I've never heard of this. I must see if I can download it. Was this an SNL skit?

-Will

No, it was an attempt to be serious. You won't find it on the net. Lucas destroyed it, I'm betting. It was that bad.

[wdl]

No, it was an attempt to be serious. You won't find it on the net. Lucas destroyed it, I'm betting. It was that bad.


ROFL! YES! Dude, if it's out there I'll find it. Trust me. :)

-Will

[wdl]

A Shockwave Starwars Christmas (http://www.shockcomics.com/swxmas/)

[MasterKiller]

Never mention Star Wars X-mas again lest I bring the wrath.

At least you can still get "Droids" and "Ewok Adventures" on DVD.

[Starchaser107]

Caravan of Courage was pretty cool, but the battle for Endor was really sad :mad: ..what was the whole point of it all. it makes caravan's story seem so pointless.
Oh well... :(

[wdl]

Hahaha, I found it. The best thing I know how to compare it to would be that time as a small child, when you had the epiphany about Mister Roger's Neighborhood. George Lucas' punishment in hell will be having to watch it over and over again. :eek:

-Will

[BM2]

[QUOTE=Starchaser107]
I wish I were that flexible,

I was 25 in that pic. I am stiff where I used to flexible and flexible where I used to be stiff :o :p

[wdl]

I was 25 in that pic. I am stiff where I used to flexible and flexible where I used to be stiff :o :p

You were 25 in the pic with the straight up side kick? How young were you when you acheived that?

-Will

[BM2]

Well I can not get it up like that anymore but when my free sample pack of Enzyte arrives I will be stepping large like Bob! :cool:

[wdl]

Well I can not get it up like that anymore but when my free sample pack of Enzyte arrives I will be stepping large like Bob! :cool:

HAHA.

But how young were you when you first were able to do that?

-Will

[Starchaser107]

I can get mine up but it's more to an angle and not completely straight like that. It has a slight bend. I guess if I work it every day I might eventually get it to go straight up. Maybe I can even do it so well that I'll get into that magazine again.



:eek:

[David Jamieson]

I got the Star wars Trilogy for xmas last year and it was sweet.

1 complaint about it only though and that was the documentary.

Not the actual content of the making stuff, just the general message of "poor george lucas, he was so hard done by" that stunk up the documentary on the extras dvd.

the guy is SICK rich from all of it, got to do what he wanted, has total ownage of anything with the SW brand on it and forwarded the movie making industry by light years with his ideas on how to innovate the processes. It was dissapointing to come to understand that the doc makers were just ass sucking and george let them.

Last summer I was involved in a feature flick that Ron Howard was directing and even he had tremendous respect for the processes that George used. I remeber him saying they should've been filming in full digital (a Lucas thing) to save time and to make the whole process faster. Now that's praise from on high if ya ask me.

having said that, I hate Jar Jar, I can't stand ewoks, but the rest is interesting to be sure. I also clicked when I found out that George consulted with Joseph Campbell a lot when he was formulating the story. Now that's a guy who knows who to ask for the sh.it! George asking Joe that is.

[MasterKiller]

Don't believe the hype.
All the Campbellian references and pyschological drama in ESB and ROTJ come from Lawrence Kasdan.

Lucas wanted ESB to be like "The Searchers," so he originally hired the screen writer of that movie, Leigh Brackett. Her script sucked, so he gave it to Kasdan and he composed a masterpiece. If you read the script for ESB, it follows the movie to the letter. The script is so tight that there are hardly any cut scenes or improvisations. Of course, the famous change is Harrison Ford's response to Leia when she says "I love you" just before he frozen in carbonite. But Harrison also had came up with the famous line from Indiana Jones: "It's not the years. It's the milage" or something like that. So, you have to give credit where credit is due.

Kasdan devleoped Yoda and all the Zen-esque affectations of the Force. If you read the original script of Star Wars, the Force was THE NARRATOR of the story. Nothing like Kasdan shaped it later.

Now, step forward 25 years. Lucas wrote TPM and AOTC himself. Those original scripts are like 250 pages each, with cut scenes and revisions galore. That's why the movies are sort of so-so because they were pieced together in the editing room.

My point is that the Star Wars movies are collaborations. Lucas gets all the credit, but he has an entire studio of people developing stuff and he just picks and chooses what he wants, then fits into his story outlines.

[GeneChing]

Lucas originally envisioned a great wookie battle for the finale, but then said he couldn't afford it :confused:

As fot the Star Wars Xmas special, here ya go (http://www.stomptokyo.com/movies/star-wars-holiday-special.html#gallery). Man, that brings back memories. I remeber seeing it the first and only time, all excited because the original Star Wars, well, that was my generation. So there was this huge buzz about the special, then it was aired and every Star Wars fan was like WTF? It was so horribly bad - words cannot even describe it. If you ***** about Jar Jar, you ain't seen nothing like the Xmas special.

[MasterKiller]

Lucas originally envisioned a great wookie battle for the finale, but then said he couldn't afford it :confused: He could afford it. The problem was that Chewbacca was too technically savvy. In order to complete the theme Kasadan had envisioned, the ending needed a completely primative society that defeats the evil mechanized Empire. So, they changed smart wookies around a little and came up with Ewoks. Again, that was a Kasdan influence.

The cute-and-furry aspect was actually Richard Marquand's idea. Steven Speilberg was originally going to direct ROTJ but couldn't because Lucas works outside the studio union system of which Speilberg was a member. So, Marquand was tapped to take over. If not for an SAG card....things might have been different.

[Jhapa]

bump for a great post. :D

[The Willow Sword]

I guess it was inevitable considering the subject material. From Gay'esque showing off of everyones chest to Starwars. :D I love it. I guess my last Serious post to GT ended things pretty much with this thread.

You know i was going to post a vid of me doing a mantis form but i need to change the direction somewhat of the form so that you can actually see me executing the moves. I have a digi cam that can do mpeg shorts,,,,soon i will get it cleaned up for the camera and then post it.
then you guys can make fun of me and say how my mantis form that i learned pre-sd looks like sd :D

I really wish to get back to the community here in a good way and not have to justify or explain the Sd thing anymore. it would be nice ya know.

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

I really wish to get back to the community here in a good way and not have to justify or explain the Sd thing anymore. it would be nice ya know.

Aside that your story is part of KFO/SD lore, I don't think that would be a problem. I think that people judge you independantly of your style, or former style, if you post on topics other than SD and discuss techniques and application rather than politics, history and lineage.

Have you started training, formally, in another art since you left SD?

[The Willow Sword]

I have gone back to my original Teacher and training before SD. I am distantly connected in to Ng Family system (6 harmomy method boxing) Although,,all i have from that system is the Mantis form that i was taught. SO i just do that and on occasion i will do some circle walking and palm changes. But i have since spoken with my old teacher and he has always thought of me as his student so i was never "out" of his good graces.

The problem is that he is in Tennessee and if i want to get more teaching i need to take a road trip soon,,however another one of Dr Ng's Disciples that i know makes buisness trips to texas on occasion and we have tenatively set a meeting for training and such.

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

Your obviously different than me. I really need the motivation of having a teacher and class to push me in my training. I wouldn't do well with occasional visits and road trips. A "fight club" would be a nice compromise too.

MK, in his subtle and diplomatic way is correct though. Ignore the SD threads. I'll post in them b/c it's the style I train, but you can always distance yourself.

[Golden Tiger]

I guess my last Serious post to GT ended things pretty much with this thread.

It was serious? :D


I am not into star wars or hairy nipples so I haven't been posting. But now if you would like to talk about Hsing I sword....dayum. A very nice form indeed.

[Jhapa]

It was serious? :D

I am not into star wars or hairy nipples so I haven't been posting. But now if you would like to talk about Hsing I sword....dayum. A very nice form indeed.

what's wrong with hairy nipples... :D

[The Willow Sword]

Nope ,,not gonna change my screen name. I will always be The Willow Sword here.

As far as the b!tching goes? Hey we all gotta b!tch some time ;)

GT. :rolleyes:

JP: Yeah its tough when your teacher lives far away. i have contemplated moving back to my home state of Kenfunky so that i could be closer to him and a few others. But i am still chewing that fat(been chewing it for a long time actually).

When i get my Sh!t together with this vid i want to do i will post it. i dont like looking at myself doing a form. i hate it in fact. But i have been inspired to do it because of a mantis demo i saw in the northern Mantis forum here. and the site where the vid was posted on looks like i am able to post it there for people to see.

anyway,,off to the gym and to walmart (my new hangouts :p )

Peace,,TWS

[wdl]

I am distantly connected in to Ng Family system (6 harmomy method boxing)

Ng family out of Kentucky?

-Will

[The Willow Sword]

Yup that be the one. why?

[wdl]

Yup that be the one. why?

Ironic you should mention that on an SD thread considering the past history.

Personally, I think it's funny.

-Will

[DragonflyDaoist]

What history is that, wdl? I haven't heard of the Kentucky Ng family.

[wdl]

Golden_Tiger would probably be able to explain that one better. There was a fight at one of the Lexington Tournaments years ago between the Ng family guys and the SD guys. I've heard different versions of the same story from both sides. But you can pretty much guess the typical story from either side. The SD side: "The Ng family guys came to our tournament talking crap and it got out of hand" and the Ng Family side: "We went to their tournament respectfully and they started crap". I don't believe the Ng family guys were competing, I think they were in the stands. I know Bill Leanord got hurt, something broken, and still fought well while he was hurt. That's really all I know about it. From what I understand it's forgotten history and most everyone wants to keep it that way. What's known is that something went wrong and everything got out of control.


-Will

[BM2]

Thankfully, that thread was deleted. :)

[wdl]

Thankfully, that thread was deleted. :)

Amen.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

What history is that, wdl? I haven't heard of the Kentucky Ng family.

History??? What history??? :cool:

[The Willow Sword]

I have heard this story for years and i know both sides of it.

and yes that "thread" had the Ng side of things mentioned by someone who was actually there. this thread may be in the archives but i wouldnt really drudge these things back up.

All i will say from my end is that before i joined SD i was being taught by a disciple of the Ng family school(he is a good friend and still is) my teacher also studied and is a good friend of the instructor who was at that famous tournament that everyone labels Ng vs SD.

i have mentioned this before in past threads but when i was at SD and i was asked who i studied with befire and i dropped those names,,people got all bent out of shape and thought i was some sort of spy come to steal thier forms and cause trouble(how ironic though,stealing forms and causing trouble),,sigh oh well i quickly dispelled all that bullsh!t because at the time i had no clue that there was any rivalry between SD and the Ng school. wished i had just said " oh my god ya caught me,,im so ashamed,,time to go back to kentucky :p


Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

It was an enlightening thread in that one of the NG students who wasn't there started talking up their side and even claimed to have a tape of the fight. (He was lying). What was interesting was that the actual participant of the fight posted about his version of events and I thought he conducted himself with respect and integrity.

Other than what I've read here, I have no knowledge of the NG v SD history. It's ancient history as far as I'm concerned.

[wdl]

wished i had just said " oh my god ya caught me,,im so ashamed,,time to go back to kentucky :p


No you don't. You wouldn't have learned that, "sweet jump front kick" as you put it from Fei Foo. :p


-Will

[Golden Tiger]

All i will say from my end is that before i joined SD i was being taught by a disciple of the Ng family school(he is a good friend and still is) my teacher also studied and is a good friend of the instructor who was at that famous tournament that everyone labels Ng vs SD.

i have mentioned this before in past threads but when i was at SD and i was asked who i studied with befire and i dropped those names,,people got all bent out of shape and thought i was some sort of spy come to steal thier forms and cause trouble(how ironic though,stealing forms and causing trouble),,sigh oh well i quickly dispelled all that bullsh!t because at the time i had no clue that there was any rivalry between SD and the Ng school. wished i had just said " oh my god ya caught me,,im so ashamed,,time to go back to kentucky



I am beginning to believe that Willow is nothing more than a satire. He always seems to pull another shocking rabbit out of the hat when ever things die down.

What puzzles me is the part about him dropping names and the people getting bent out of shape. I seriously doubt if anyone in Texas (where he said he took SD) was around or can even remember the dispute and if so, it would have to be Joe.

Yep, it just keep getting fishier and fishier.........

[DragonflyDaoist]

So, basically, martial artists fought for honor. Then I'm proud. :) Anyway, I've heard similar tales of events at other locations. I won't mention details. But we should all stop acting embarrassed or angry about such occurrences. This sort of thing has happened for a LONG time, and is the reason we martial artists enjoy such passion about what we do, whether we are Shaolin-Do, Northern Mantis, "modern" Shaolin, or whatever. So, on to more enlightening subject matter.

[wdl]

This sort of thing has happened for a LONG time, and is the reason we martial artists enjoy such passion about what we do, whether we are Shaolin-Do, Northern Mantis, "modern" Shaolin, or whatever. So, on to more enlightening subject matter.

Exactly.


-Will

[Judge Pen]

What happened to the thread "Is Shaolin for real"?

[DragonflyDaoist]

:rolleyes:

Yeah, that's right. "Modern" Shaolin. I say that because I can't personally say with confidence that the stuff being taught by the monks in NYC, Houston, and other cities is any older than the last destruction of the temple at Song Shan. Just like no one can say with absolute certainty that SD wasn't brought out of the temple at Fukien. (To be fair, I know that not ALL of SD came from Fukien.) So, if we SD folks have to listen to the doubts of non-SD people here just so we can associate with each other on this board, non-SD people will simply have to realize that other systems (even "well-respected" ones) may not be everything they are thought to be.

Understand, I'm not picking a fight, or asserting the validity of SD, or anything like that. I'm really just being fair to all parties.

Before someone starts down the anti-SD road again, let me say that I don't care if SD history is debatable. I don't care if GM Sin gained a little weight back in the 80's and followed an Arnold program to get back in shape. I don't care if our sets are different from other gong fu systems. All that is BS to me. What matters to me is that the techiques and philosophies I've come to understand work for me and work for others. I also find the comraderie of my fellow students and my Master to be invaluable. My entire SD experience has been fun, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I don't get all worked up over the intra- and inter-school/system petty politics. I gave my Master my money so that I could train and learn, and I have gotten more than my money's worth. Now, if some of you guys want to get caught up in all the "my uncle did your mom last night" BS, go ahead. But that sort of thing will only detract from your life experience.

At any rate, I wish you all the best, whether you are friend or enemy of SD. I hope your pursuits are fruitful, and that you find and enjoy what you want.

[The Willow Sword]

What puzzles me is the part about him dropping names and the people getting bent out of shape. I seriously doubt if anyone in Texas (where he said he took SD) was around or can even remember the dispute and if so, it would have to be Joe.

Yep, it just keep getting fishier and fishier.........


I have ALWAYS been Honest here on these forums. People can vouch for that. I have made my challenges here and i have stepped up to them,,wether i got my ass kicked or not is not the issue.
i have Always shared my Knowledge here on the forums honestly and i have lied about NOTHING.

Here was the deal as it went down:

Early on in my Sd days i was asked by a student there(who was actually a friend of my mothers{they went to school together for occupational therapy}) who it was that i studied from before. I told him that i was taught by a disciple of the Ng family system who in turn studied with one of thier main instructors at the time "John Dufresne". After that this student at SD decided to go and tell "Joe" about it and then joe confronted me in the back alley of the old school location as i was training and told me something to the extent of " uhh jason we have a serious problem,,,he then proceeded to tell me in general about the rivalry between sd and the Ng school and john dufresne,,and that he had also called grandmaster sin on this matter as well,,and i was directly confronted by joe as to wether or not i was some sort of "spy" come to make trouble or "steal" thier forms.

well i can tell you i had a big question mark on my face from the get go and was like "HUH"? well to make a long story short i quickly dispelled the bullsh!t and told joe that like my previous teacher that all i was interested in was learning forms and training and that i tried as best as i could to keep myself away from the petty Politics between schools.
Joe was convinced and life went on. I DID, however Immediately call up my previous teacher and told him what the deal was and he laughed and proceeded to tell me the whole story about the Ng Sd BS from way back.

So is this fishy now GT,,am i still satire to you? like i even give a rats fuk what you think anyway. but as far as my integrity is concerned it is solid here which is alot more than i can say for some in your organization based on what a bunch of us already know and who have experienced first hand.



Peace,,,TWS

[lxtruong]

blah blah blah, I don't care about school rivalry or any of that BS. Waste of time.

On another note, I saw the video for the Hsing Ie sword, and it's pretty awesome.

[Jhapa]

well at least he had the common courtesy to discuss it in the back alley, not in front of other students/instructors. One thing that still bugs me is that the SD school i go to, seems to put other schools down.

[MonkeySlap Too]

"On another note, I saw the video for the Hsing Ie sword, and it's pretty awesome."

How would you know? I've seen SD Xing-yi. It's not.

[serene_dragon]

On another note, I saw the video for the Hsing Ie sword, and it's pretty awesome.

I attended the seminar, yes it is awesome. The tape is nothing compared to the seminar itself.

[serene_dragon]

Willow,

You live in KY and train with Ng people now. Do you know either of the Pickens brothers?

[The Willow Sword]

I still live here in Texas. I have never met the Pickens brothers,,but i know of them and who they are.

AT some point i will be making a road trip to the land of Kenfunky and who knows what may come of that adventure. for now i have to stick to my resources here in teehas.
Peace,,TWS

[DragonflyDaoist]

Since Sin has modified the system, adding new forms, allowing the short forms to "evolve" (as GT says), technically, you guys are doing "modern" Shaolin-Do anyway.

OK, everyone. In an effort to avoid offending the sensitive, I propose that we use only meaningless designations to discuss individual fighting systems. SD could be E82309824r5, Shorinryu could be oiuwer878024r5, etc. Would anyone like to second the motion? ;)

[DragonflyDaoist]

"On another note, I saw the video for the Hsing Ie sword, and it's pretty awesome."

How would you know? I've seen SD Xing-yi. It's not.

WARNING: THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENTATIVE STATEMENT ;)

MonkeySlap, how is SD's Xing Yi different from others? I'm a big fan of the internal arts, and I'm curious about the differences between the system I study and others out there.

[Brad]

The main difference in the make up of the form itself that I saw was that there were some extra movements added in like some stationary chain punches at the end of a beng quan and extra little flowery movements with the body. I don't have the vid anymore and it was quite awhile ago, but that's what stands out most from my memory. Took a few viewings, but it turned out to be close in sequence to the linking form I've seen in Li Tian Ji's Skill of Xingyi Quan book (based on Hebei style, I think?).

[DragonflyDaoist]

The main difference in the make up of the form itself that I saw was that there were some extra movements added in like some stationary chain punches at the end of a beng quan and extra little flowery movements with the body. I don't have the vid anymore and it was quite awhile ago, but that's what stands out most from my memory. Took a few viewings, but it turned out to be close in sequence to the linking form I've seen in Li Tian Ji's Skill of Xingyi Quan book (based on Hebei style, I think?).

That's interesting.

I was never really interested in Xing Yi until I did a little reading on it. I downloaded the James McNeil 5 Elements video to check it out a little further. Although this vid leaves much to be desired, I did develop further appreciation for the art. How does the McNeil stuff compare to the SD teachings? I've lost all my SD vids, and I can't remember enough for a comparison.

[Brad]

I've never seen any of McNiels stuff... haven't seen SD Xingyi other than that one video I used to have either, so I can't really comment. One of my sifu's main teachers was Li Tian Ji, so I can scan some drawings from the book if I ever get my scanner working :P I've done a little bit of xingyi quan, but I'm mostly a chang quan/ taiji quan guy :)

[Brad]

Have you checked out http://www.emptyflower.com yet?

[Golden Tiger]

So is this fishy now GT,,am i still satire to you?



Yes........... :D

[Judge Pen]

The main difference in the make up of the form itself that I saw was that there were some extra movements added in like some stationary chain punches at the end of a beng quan and extra little flowery movements with the body. I don't have the vid anymore and it was quite awhile ago, but that's what stands out most from my memory. Took a few viewings, but it turned out to be close in sequence to the linking form I've seen in Li Tian Ji's Skill of Xingyi Quan book (based on Hebei style, I think?).

Some SD schools perform their forms a little more flowery than others. The "chain punches" are a Water/wood combination (the way I was taught). Brad, if I ever get back up to Columbus, I'd be happy to show you the form as it was taught to me so you can compare it to the vid of Master Reid. There are differences, but nothing earth shattering. I was taught to put a little more of my body (legs/hips and back) into the fists.

DFD, MS2 has a bit more contact with some west coast SD (excuse me, CSC) practitioners, but I don't know if his experience with SD's Hsing-I goes beyond the video in question.

[DragonflyDaoist]

Have you checked out http://www.emptyflower.com yet?

Yes, I've been reading what he has there. It's a very well-designed site. I like what he has done with it. Good material there, too.

[Golden Tiger]

Nothing really to say..... I just wanted to be the 1000th post :D

[DragonflyDaoist]

GT and JP:

I've been practicing the knee and foot shoots, as per your suggestions. I'm getting better, faster than I expected. You guys rock! Thanks.

[BM2]

Nothing really to say..... I just wanted to be the 1000th post :D

AAAAAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wanted to be the 1,000 :p

So after reading over 1,000 posts, the elusive,diffenitive answer remains unanswered. How do you difine real? Are the strikes real? Do you improve your cardio and flexibility? Is what you learn have applications?
I give it a yes, no and may be. Not unlike any other martial art. Not all TKD, JMA, OMA and CMA schools are the same even in the same town. SD is no different and that really shouldn't be a surprise. Watch some classes and try a few. If it is not what you are looking for, fine. Many enjoy it and others have not. Not any different than other styles.
Just guessing but I would suppose that each school thinks that they are one of the better ones and the others suck. ;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Again, if you are doing SD Xing-yi, you aren't 'doing' Xing-yi. How would you know if it was any good?

[Judge Pen]

Again, if you are doing SD Xing-yi, you aren't 'doing' Xing-yi. How would you know if it was any good?

Well not having had the opportunity to compare it to other's Xing-yi I couldn't say whether or not it was good Xing-Yi or even real Xing-Yi. I can say that the 5 elements and 12 animal "techniques" that are taught are effective and applicable. I can tell you how the techniques flow well into one another and how I appreciate the simpliefied techniques and ease of movement and power generation that each technique presents. I can tell you that I use the 5 elements in my sparring more than any other techniques that are taught in SD. I just can't tell you if what I'm doing is real "Xing-Yi" compared to others.

Whatever they are, the techniques are real. And they are good.

[Golden Tiger]

Again, if you are doing SD Xing-yi, you aren't 'doing' Xing-yi. How would you know if it was any good?

According to who? You? That is hardly definitive proof. What tickles me about a few of you is that from a few classes or a few clips, you seem to have all the answers concerning SD. Good or bad, at least we are out there.

What I want to know is where are some examples of the supreme arts forms that you study. You seem quick to pass judgement on SD, how about showing what YOU have?

[wdl]

Again, if you are doing SD Xing-yi, you aren't 'doing' Xing-yi. How would you know if it was any good?

As Dragonfly asked, what makes it not Xing-Yi? Please tell me why SD Xing-Yi is Xing-Yi and every other style of Xing-Yi is Xing-Yi. I do not have any Xing-Yi. Please, I'd like to know the difference.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

I try not to challenge anyone's credentials. I'm certainly not challenging MonkeySlap's credentials. MonkeySlap is a well-repected member here. He is a published author and an all around-bad a$$ from what I can gather. I know he has crossed hands with SD people before. I don't know his Xing-Yi background nor do I know the extent of his experience with SD's Xing-yi.

Question: Where would I go to see real Xing-yi? Who is the best in the business that teaches 12 animals?

[Golden Tiger]

Out where? At Taiji Legacy? At AAU Nationals? Where exactly is SD "out"?

And MonkeySlap is the last guy you should challenge on credentials.


There seems to be a lot of clips of our material floating around so that is what I mean by out there. Everyone seems to be able to slam what we do because of one or two examples so I am simpley asking to see what I am being judged against.

And if MS is going to say what is and what isn't then he is the FIRST to need to prove his credentials. But then again, you spoke up for him.....

[sean_stonehart]

Question: Where would I go to see real Xing-yi? Who is the best in the business that teaches 12 animals?

JP... at one of your future visits down, I'll get you over to to see Allen Pittman. He's regarded by more than a few people as really good. He's here in town.

[Judge Pen]

JP... at one of your future visits down, I'll get you over to to see Allen Pittman. He's regarded by more than a few people as really good. He's here in town.

That would be excellent. Any time I can remove ignorance for comparision's sake, I think that is a good thing.

[Fu-Pow]

Question: Where would I go to see real Xing-yi? Who is the best in the business that teaches 12 animals?


Post #1008....we finally get somewhere. :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

Whatever Fu Pow. I always make a point to visit as many different kung fu schools as I can (especially when I travel). It's about time that you noticed. :D

[DragonflyDaoist]

I would like to know what MonkeySlap has written. I'm always on the lookout for quality martial reading material. Of course, if you want to maintain anonymity here, MS, I can understand that.

[brothernumber9]

"Please tell me why SD Xing-Yi is (not) Xing-Yi and every other style of Xing-Yi is Xing-Yi"

You almost said it yourself. SD Xing-Yi is a form. Other styles of Xing Yi are not just a form, they are systems with their own theory and method of mechanics that require building blocks from the ground up. i.e. fundamental stances, fundamental walking and changing footwork patterns, and primary theories and concepts of Xing Yi attack and defense, etc. Far more than a single form without the building blocks would reveal over a few months or even years.

These theories and methods would most assuredly conflict with some of the theories, methods, and mechanics implied to some of the other "styles" SD teaches. That is one of the crux(s) of most arguments against SD teachings of combining, or attempting to, of different styles that are unique systems unto themselves. Some of these "styles" compliment or mesh well with others. A lot of them don't.

[Judge Pen]

The thing is, it's not just a form in SD. Certainly it's an introduction to the style. It is taught over a 2 to 3 year period. During that time, it's all you learn with the exception of 3 straight sword sets, and along with the basics, you are tought a ton of meditation and chi kung. My teacher went into fundamentals and building blocks during my training which included stepping drills and resistance training.

Since I can't compare it to other Xing-yi, I don't know what, if anything was left out or was lacking. I can say that I haven't mastered the techniques. I'm still working on that. I'm charged with drilling it on my own and improving once my teacher judged that I had the basics down.

Again, I don't know if it's real Xing-yi, but it's real something and was taught with it's own theories, drills, and applications. The meditation, chi gong, and isometric training was essential to understanding and applying what we were taught. I'd like to compare it by visiting a schools and observing their training.

Maybe some people breeze through it without the drills and training. We don't. I'm sure from discussing the topic with GT that they don't in Lexington either.

[Golden Tiger]

SD Xing-Yi is a form

I would have to disagree with that although I concede your statement about conflicting styles and the "current" lack of building from the ground up.

"SD" Hsing Ie contains forms for the 5 roads or fists (Chopping, Banging, Stopping, Cannon, Crossing). It has a linkage form that combines these fists. There are 11 forms (for 12 animals Eagle/Bear are one) for the animals. There is a 2 man set using the animals and roads. There is a practice set (Shattering Hand) and now, there is a sword form that goes with it.

So, totaled the so called SD Hsing I form actually consists of 20 forms plus the Shattering hand techniques.

Along with all this, stances, theory, movements and meditation are taught.

This is concentrated on during the 3 year min. period from 2nd to 3rd Black.

[brothernumber9]

At face, what you stated seems quite logical and perhaps even proper. But deeper brings up other arguments. For example, within the SD curriculum where did the Xing Yi material originate. The logical immediate answer is Sin The. This then brings up the question of amongst the dozens of other systems SD promotes, and the testimony from pugilists of students that solely study those individual systems on how long it takes to reach a level of proficiency, how proper is the Xing Yi or any system SD teaches in relation to instruction from teachers of just those disciplines separately.

In other words, how much could Sin The have absorbed properly within the time frame of his life in comparison to how many systems SD teaches and how long it takes by others testimony and examples of reachng proficiency of those disciplines.

learning one or a few discipline alone in a lifetime much less dozens of disciplines, some of which contrast too much to each other.

Lets just say someone is 70yrs old and they teach 20 different styles. Take away five years for infancy. That equates to just a little over 3yrs per system if the training were non stop. Is that enough to properly learn each system?

[Golden Tiger]

within the SD curriculum where did the Xing Yi material originate.
That, I am not 100% sure about so I will not attempt to answer because slip ups here are not easily dealt with.


how proper is the Xing Yi or any system SD teaches in relation to instruction from teachers of just those disciplines separately

But it can also be asked of those who teach only a specific system. How proper is what they teach? What makes one so much better than the other? If one is able to grasp the essence of a system and gain in knowledge and ability, doesn't if make it benificial? I have gone to Emptyflower which seems to be the end all for Hsing I. Most of the things I have read on there are not new to me. Different terms but mainly the same concepts. So, what I got must be somewhat close to what everyone else got.


how much could Sin The have absorbed properly within the time frame of his life in comparison to how many systems SD teaches and how long it takes by others testimony and examples of reachng proficiency of those disciplines.

I can't answer that. All I know is that when he taught something out, it always consisted of extensive notes, background and basics that made it seem to work. With each system (Tai Chi, Pa Kua and Hsing I) I learned a new way of doing things. I took from each of them the essence of the system. Right or now, tradition or made up on the spot, it gave me something I didn't have before I learned it.

[wdl]

Lets just say someone is 70yrs old and they teach 20 different styles. Take away five years for infancy. That equates to just a little over 3yrs per system if the training were non stop. Is that enough to properly learn each system?

You make a good point brother. I think part of this is the difference in how the mindsets from Chinese arts that have come out of Indonesia and arts that have come out of China in the past 100 years have differed. In alot of Indonesia based systems learning a ton of styles is completely acceptable. It's like there's a large split in the thinking between the two branches.

I think your mostly right, with the exception of a few gifted instructors here and there.

-Will

[brothernumber9]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not implying that Sin The made up anything at all. I'm assuming he did learn Xing Yi. I'm only presenting possible arguments towards the depth of the understanding of the aspects implicit with learning Xing Yi to a level of proficiency that would justify the teaching as more than just a form.

A common point of view from some outside of SD is that SD is just a huge collection of forms and not much else. A bunch of emply shells if you will. After the posts of some SD students here less some former SD students, they are all adamant that is not the case.

There's a bunch of styles with dozens of forms, so having a bunch of forms and after aquiring fundamental skills, learning a few forms a year is par for the course. The difference in regards to SD (or so I'm assuming) would be that systems of themselves reinforce the learning with each form, refining and building on the specific theories, concepts, mechanics, and power generation that define the system.

By combining so many different styles, some of which contradict each other in some of the aspects above, and some that by testimony take longer than 3yrs to get an even intermediate level of, just makes it dubious that in such a conglomerate, the actual essence of such styles could still be present through such methods of universal learning and teaching all from only one immediate source.

[Golden Tiger]

I'm only presenting possible arguments towards the depth of the understanding of the aspects implicit with learning Xing Yi to a level of proficiency that would justify the teaching as more than just a form.


I can agree with that statement also. I guess where we ( and 99% of the rest here) differ is that while you may not learn everything there is to know about (insert system here) while studying SD, you are going to get a taste of it. And in that taste, you will get the basic essence of what that particular system has to contribute to your overall skill as a martial artist. Now with that, say you learn Hsing I and just love it and thats all you ever want to do again. Then you can go out and find a dedicated Hsing I school. If not, you can wait until you are introduced to something else that you like better but with the skill (how ever slight it may be) you gained from the Hsing I.

I guess what really gets me is that some of you all have the purist mentality that if its not the way you are doing it, then it has no value. If you don't study one sytle for decades then you are not qualified to teach it. But then again, I am the same way. Its an arrogance that is engrained in everyone to some degree.

Another funny observation..... You won't trust a MA teacher without a iron clad lineage and 10 or 20 years of study just to teach you how to punch, kick and breath and yet you will let a doctor with 6 years of schooling cut, poke, prod and pretty much hold your life in their hands.......funny eh?

[The Willow Sword]

My experience with the hsing i that SD had to offer only went as far as the actual forms but no real teaching as to the "content" of those forms.
I never learned abvout 5 element principles there ( i had to go to outside sources to learn that) i only learned maybe a few real applications to the sets taught out( again i had to go to outside sources OR try to figure things out on my own and even then i did not trust that what i was trying to learn on my own was correct)

when i got out of Sd and started looking at other more "Traditional" and legitamte hsing i systems i began to see the differences and was able to make out the modifications that were done in the SD hsing i to make it look unique to itself,,which again makes me wonder as to WHERE all this material was taken from.

in retrospect and in my opinion i think it is quite easy to plaguerize forms that you see ,say like on videotapes,,and then modify them to make it look like your own. Its easy to do this because there is no real legal copywrite put down on these forms because in the past, say like mid to late 70's and even early 80's martial instruction vids were done independantly and distributed independantly.
just some food for thought here.

As for GT's above post,,it just goes to show you how ignorant certain people are when it comes to how important history and lineage IS in the TCMA realm. And as for experience in the arts go,,id rather learn from someone who studied 6 months with a legitamate school than with someone who for 20+ years teaches from a school that fabricates its history and plagerizes other systems forms.

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

I understand the critics' arguments well. As GT and I stated, what we learn is an introduction to the basics. Hsing-I improved my power generation with all my techniques more than anything else I have studied. If I left SD (or moved to an area where I wasn't happy with the SD instruction) I could look back and my experiences and specialize in styles that interested me the most. I would expect to get a more thorough instruction if I went that route than I got in SD. But what is taught in SD is designed to fit together in a complimentary way.

We cannot learn Tai Chi, Pa Kua or Hsing-Ie as well as a student that studies nothing but one of those styles. But we can learn them well enough to apply the fundamental principles of each to make us better. I am more sensitive to my opponent weaknesses, center of gravity, and weight distribution though the Tai Chi I am taught. My footwork and ability to out step an opponent have improved through the Pa Kua I am taught. I can hit harder with less wasted energy through the Hsing-Ie I have been taught. Does that make me as good as any person that studies nothing but Pa Kua; nothing but tai chi; nothing but Hsing Ie? No, but I can take some of each and make me better.

Now, in addition to maintaining what I was taught before, I'm learning Long Fist. I'm never going to be as good at that as say, MK, or others that practice that style exclusively. But, I am closing distance better than I did before. The ability to blend those styles is a blessing to the individual; however, it's a curse to trying to do justice to the individual styles we are taught.

Good or bad, you can describe a quality SD person as a Jack of all trades and a master of none. But to be able to blend these styles into something that compliments the individual martial artist is a mastery of its own.

[Golden Tiger]

As for GT's above post,,it just goes to show you how ignorant certain people are when it comes to how important history and lineage IS in the TCMA realm. And as for experience in the arts go,,id rather learn from someone who studied 6 months with a legitamate school than with someone who for 20+ years teaches from a school that fabricates its history and plagerizes other systems forms.



:rolleyes: ........... Thats probably why you are 0-1......Lineage and history aren't gonna save your buttocks. While you are hitting the books tracking all that down and then double checking it, you should be hitting the bag my friend.



in retrospect and in my opinion i think it is quite easy to plaguerize forms that you see ,say like on videotapes,,and then modify them to make it look like your own. Its easy to do this because there is no real legal copywrite put down on these forms because in the past, say like mid to late 70's and even early 80's martial instruction vids were done independantly and distributed independantly.

Although I have already covered this point....

1. 1977: The First VHS VCR is Introduced in the U.S.

2. Show me all these 180 ish forms we have on tape and I'll quit sweating my butt off in class...

[The Willow Sword]

But wouldnt you want to "specialize" in something? i mean you seem like how i was back in the old days where i was looking at other schools and communicating with other student and teachers of other systems and getting ideas and things from them. i mean if you are travelling and visiting other schools then i would contend that you are not really getting what you need there at sd. oh sure you are becoming a jack of all trades when it comes to forms,,but if you decided to really stick with one style and really master it and make it your own,,you could be a very reputable teacher like most in the TCMA realm.

just more food thinking.


Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

The thing is I am getting what I want from SD. A lot of that comes from the quality of instruction I'm receiving with my teachers. They are very good to me. I spar them often and I am a better fighter now then when I was more gifted athletically. Just because I compare notes with other schools doesn't mean I'm not getting what I want here. More often than not, I'm pleasantly surprised by how well my training measures up (I say "pleasantly surprised" because I get it drummed into my head from this forum that my stuff is worthless all the time, it's nice to confirm that it isn't. :) ) I'm very fortunate that I have good relationships with teachers in other cities that I train with also, but it doesn't take away from my SD training. I take what I learn from them and make it work for me (just like I do with SD).

Do I want to specialize? Maybe someday. There's no local teacher that I would want to train with other than my current teacher. If I moved somewhere else, then I would judge the instruction available more than the style.

And I could care less about becoming a reputable teacher. I only help my teacher instruct when he needs my help. I think I'm a pretty good teacher--very detail oriented (much more so then I am with myself I must confess), but I have no interest in teaching on my own. I'd much rather simply train.

[Fu-Pow]

Whatever Fu Pow. I always make a point to visit as many different kung fu schools as I can (especially when I travel). It's about time that you noticed. :D

Haha...just messing with you....I'm working on my snappy one-liners ala Masterkiller style. ;) :D

[Judge Pen]

I'm working on my snappy one-liners ala Masterkiller style. ;) :D

MK's the master of one-liner forum-fu.

[Brad]

It's not that hard to find books, etc. with 5-10 forms in them... and not all forms have to be coppied from books. Forms in book form are have been around for many many years. Also people have been teaching seminars and competiting in tournements with this stuff for a long time too. It's not too hard to gather forms through books, video, seminars, and just plain observation. He also doesn't need to know every single form he claims to teach. As new stuff becomes available to the public, the system grows. My first karate teacher was able to gather at least 100 different forms from various styles (some pretty darn rare). He kept tons of hand written notes to help him remember it all. We managed to track down part of the origins of what he taught, but there's still a lot we'll never manage to track down. The guy would still be in buisness today if he hadn't been brought down by being caught engaging in somewhat unrelated criminal activity (child molestation).

Personally, I think Sin The is going to get away with his crimes until the day he dies. Most of these crooks aren't going to get into trouble unless they do something else... like my first teacher with his actraction to underage girls, or "Iron" Kim with the tax evasion and cult. Sin The seems more common con-man than deranged sicko like some of these other guys.

[Golden Tiger]

Personally, I think Sin The is going to get away with his crimes until the day he dies.

:rolleyes: ........................

[SimonM]

Yeah, what the header says.

Come on, the SD guys and the anti-SD guys aren't going to budge from their postions and those of us who couldn't give a flying fu<k about SD would rather talk about something else. I think it's time to let it go! :eek:

[DragonflyDaoist]

I can tolerate the doubts about lineage, the comparison of the structure and performance of our forms, and most of the other BS floating around about SD. But thievery is a serious accusation, and it breaks my otherwise peaceful and patient state of being. In other words, it ****es me off.

POINT #1
What is a form? It is simply a way of conveying information and technique without the use of physical media such as videotape, audiotape, or paper. Should I be upset because others write on paper, like me?

POINT #2
I don't believe Grandmaster Sin The' would commit thievery. I have spent some time around the man, and my Master is one of GM Sin's direct students. By all accounts, he is a great person, aside from being a martial arts instructor/Master/Grandmaster. Besides that, if he were the thieving sort, his lifestyle would be evidence of that. Thieves want something for nothing. GM Sin still promotes each student personally (unless things have changed in the past few years). SD schools are scattered across the country, and, at one time, totalled 111 (I don't know how old that figure is). Take a survey of thieves, and ask them if they would work that hard. If I were a dishonest GM Sin The', I would appoint his senior students to do all the travelling and testing for him, and show up a couple of times a year at tournaments to reap the praise.

At any rate, the originator of this thread wishes to know about SD. A couple of you have just said that GM Sin stole material. List in a new thread the resources, whether they are videotape, audiotape, optical disc, books, essays, theses, cave wall markings, etc, that he stole the material from. Neither I nor those curious about SD want to see excuses for your failure to produce. Either show evidence, or don't make such accusations.

Put up or shut up.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Sorry about my delays - this is a busy year.

Anybody can discuss the theories of Xing-Yi - there are a ton of books out there, especially in Chinese. But actually having the 'kung fu' is another matter.

I am responding to having watched SD "Hsing Ie" on video and once in person. (I recently missed a SD "Xing Ie" seminar in San Jose, I wanted to make a polite visit so I could speak from more experience, but I'm too busy with work.)

Please understand there is a wide range of styles that fall under the Xing Yi/Xin Yi category. There are players and schools out there that are just phenomenal, there is a lot of modern Wushu, and a lot of half-baked stuff. Even done 'externally' a lot of Xing Yi can be made to function to some degree.

THAT being said, from where I'm sitting the SD Xing-Yi doesn't look very much like finctional Xing-Yi to me. I mean, there is no comparison to what I see from Wai Lun Choi's students, or Li Tai Liang's students, or Chang Tung Sheng's (who isn't parrticularly known for his Xing-yi).

My point has been this: If you grew up calling a duck an Eagle, and you've never seen an Eagle before, and everyone around you points to the duck and says 'yep, that's an Eagle.' - You won't know what an Eagle is.

SD would eat a lot less crap if they didn't claim all this wild stuff that is just not correct.

When I meet Judge Pen, we can compare notes, and I'll report back here.

[lxtruong]

I'm curious, do you have any links to any videos that you consider "functional" Xing-Yi? I would like to know what there is "no comparison" to....to of course try to make a comparison.


Sorry about my delays - this is a busy year.

Anybody can discuss the theories of Xing-Yi - there are a ton of books out there, especially in Chinese. But actually having the 'kung fu' is another matter.

I am responding to having watched SD "Hsing Ie" on video and once in person. (I recently missed a SD "Xing Ie" seminar in San Jose, I wanted to make a polite visit so I could speak from more experience, but I'm too busy with work.)

Please understand there is a wide range of styles that fall under the Xing Yi/Xin Yi category. There are players and schools out there that are just phenomenal, there is a lot of modern Wushu, and a lot of half-baked stuff. Even done 'externally' a lot of Xing Yi can be made to function to some degree.

THAT being said, from where I'm sitting the SD Xing-Yi doesn't look very much like finctional Xing-Yi to me. I mean, there is no comparison to what I see from Wai Lun Choi's students, or Li Tai Liang's students, or Chang Tung Sheng's (who isn't parrticularly known for his Xing-yi).

My point has been this: If you grew up calling a duck an Eagle, and you've never seen an Eagle before, and everyone around you points to the duck and says 'yep, that's an Eagle.' - You won't know what an Eagle is.

SD would eat a lot less crap if they didn't claim all this wild stuff that is just not correct.

When I meet Judge Pen, we can compare notes, and I'll report back here.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Go to Emptyflower.

There is a wide range of what is considered 'authentic.' - although between schools may will disagree.

Note - good luck. It's like cutting open the human body, if you don't know what your looking for, it can all look the same in there...

[Judge Pen]

When I meet Judge Pen, we can compare notes, and I'll report back here.

Wow, don't put any pressure on me MS2. :D

[Golden Tiger]

Anybody can discuss the theories of Xing-Yi - there are a ton of books out there, especially in Chinese.

I lucked out, all my notes are written in both in the offhand event that I ever learn Chinese.....




I am responding to having watched SD "Hsing Ie" on video and once in person.

nuff said........



THAT being said, from where I'm sitting the SD Xing-Yi doesn't look very much like finctional Xing-Yi to me.

see above.....


My point has been this: If you grew up calling a duck an Eagle, and you've never seen an Eagle before, and everyone around you points to the duck and says 'yep, that's an Eagle.' - You won't know what an Eagle is.

see above.....again

[DragonflyDaoist]

As I think I mentioned before, I haven't yet studied Xing Yi. So don't look at this post as an advocacy piece.

Isn't it possible that two groups can achieve similar results via different methods? The majority here say that SD's Xing Yi is no good because it doesn't look like what the majority does. So what? Using the duck/eagle example, though each is different is appearance, each is still a bird. They don't fly in a similar manner, one is water fowl, while the other hunts from the heights. Yet, despite these differences, both are, in fact, birds.

Maybe those who judge SD Xing Yi see no apparent power in videotaped demos, or even in person. But these judges haven't been on the receiving end of an SD Xing Yi strike, either. It is possible to transfer/project energy from the fingertip without movement of the limb.

Like I said, I haven't yet learned Xing Yi, but I do understand Qi, Jing, Shen, and the rest of the package. Just because I don't see my skin glow during meditation doesn't mean the qi isn't flowing.

My point is, I don't think any of us can confidently judge another style/system/technique just by watching it.

[The Willow Sword]

My point is, I don't think any of us can confidently judge another style/system/technique just by watching it.


Actually Yes you can. and in the case with Sd and the forms taught out there you can definately and confidently judge the style as nothing more than a hybridized style of karate and kung fu with more emphasis on the karate than the kung fu.

the forms have principles and techniques,,there are reasons behind them,,there is a look and a feel to it. and those who have been in the TCMA realm for a long know when a "duck" is trying to be an "eagle" and stilll looking like a duck. plus there is a "content" to the forms as well and that resides in the individual as to wether or not he/she has "content". the old saying goes in this community "all form and no content" and why? because if all you teach is a form and only show little of its value with respect to applications,,what points(meridians) on the body it affects,,how it is really used in a combat situation,,then the form only becomes a form and nothing more

take the Hsing yi that Sd offers. it is inherintly different in its movements when you compare it to more traditional systems of xingyi. and since most CMA practitioners agree that tracing the history and lineage of that certain family style is important,,you wonder where this hsing yi from Sd came from? is it Hebei style? or a modified version of hebei? or is the modified hsing i at Sd Shanxi style? or is it I chuan style?

i know sd Hsing i,,all too well do i know it. and in my opinion it has some decent movements,,,,but never was i taught the 5 element principles or any if very little applications or techniques. oh sure it was explained a little bit about what bung chuan was for and pau chuan and so on and so forth,,but no real instruction on the system itself.
it was a 3 month course for those of us who took it when i did. it is also 2nd degree black belt material in SD,,so you would think that if it is required material that there would be alot of emphasis on the principles of 5 elements and such.
but not where i was learning it there wasnt. i had to get my meridianology and 5 element principles from outside the school just to get an idea of what the hell i was learning with hsing i.

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

Willow, you were obviously taught differently then me. Couldn't that be part of the problem in judging forms by video clips alone?

[The Willow Sword]

So you were taught the fundamentals of 5 Elements and thier corresponding meridians and points on the body? and where the 5 fists come in to play with regards to those Meridian points? and the linkage? were you just told about them or did you study them in depth? and what about health maintainence during this training?were you taught the 8 vital points? what about the 16 point practice methods? or the 8 charatcer secrets? could you elaborate on these? and what about the Nei gong associtaed with hsing i? Hsing i is not just some fly by night system of boxing JP. it is a whole system of itself ecompassing many principles and guidilnes for its martial practice.

if you were taught all that at your Sd school then great. however it was not taught like that at the texas school.


Peace,,TWS

[cerebus]

Well, most simply put, the SD Hsing-I movement/body method does NOT look like Hsing-I (at all). Yes, I've seen several clips of high-ranking SD black belts demo'ing their Hsing-I. Yes, I'm a Hsing-I practitioner myself. But no, SD Hsing-I is not Hsing-I.

So SD'ers ask which movements aren't H-I. Well it's not necessarily that ANY of the movements aren't. Meaning they could ALL be the exact same movements found in any given system of H-I. It isn't the TECHNIQUES, it's the body movement and method of doing the techniques that make it not H-I. This isn't something that can be easily explained over the internet. It really has to be SHOWN (or better yet, learned from a qualified instructor) to understand. It's basically the same thing that I saw in the video of Sin The doing a "Mantis" form. No Mantis body movement at all. Yes, he was using the Mantis claw hand position, but his body movement looked like that of a Karateka who had learned a Mantis form from a book.

I have no doubt that SD's version of what they call "Hsing-I" may be a very effective method. I'm sure it's beneficial to their health. It is undoubtedly a valid martial art in it's own way. But it really ISN'T Hsing-I.

[spiraler]

holy shiz, 70 freakin pages of posts, whats the topic questioning? is shaolin do for real? CAN YOU NOT TELL WHAT IS REAL AND WHAT IS FAKE??!!?!?hmm... it might be real. then again......

[Golden Tiger]

I have no doubt that SD's version of what they call "Hsing-I" may be a very effective method. I'm sure it's beneficial to their health. It is undoubtedly a valid martial art in it's own way. But it really ISN'T Hsing-I.


Ok, let me see if my simple mind can sort through this.....

SD Hsing I may be very effective.

SD Hsing I is beneficial to their health.

SD Hsing I is undoubtedly a valid martial art.

But it really isn't Hsing I........ if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....it's an eagle.....ok, got it :D

[Fred Sanford]

yea pretty much, if you just have the movements without the body mechanics that actually power them, then what if anything do you really have, a few punches at best, at worst, well, we have that hsing-i video from the atlanta SD group.

I think cerebus is trying to be nice. SD looks to me to be a fairly worthless pile of doo-doo.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[The Willow Sword]

Cerebus kind of contradicted himself there abit.

in my opinion the Sd hsing i is modified to make it look like thier own unique and "lost way" refound. i mean that is the rhetoric at SD ,,this is the "True" shaolin and the "true" way that things were taught in the temple and so on and so forth. and when you quickly deduce that it is a bunch of Horsesh!t then you ask yourself well what are these forms?

well from what i have practiced with sd hsing i and then what i have practiced and have learned outside of sd,,i can say that sd hsing i is probably taken from somewhere and then "modified". thats what i mean when i use the term plagurize in the forms there. its the same with the pakua at SD in my opinion.


Peace,,TWS

[Brad]

Your duck analogy completely misses the point. Is chang quan still chang quan if I practice it with a hung gar body method? It's the same reason modern wushu nan quan usually isn't "real" southern kungfu even though that's where most of the techniques came from. I've got a mantis form in a book here, but just imitating the pictures isn't going to make what I do real mantis.

[Brad]

And this is where the arguement kind of becomes pointless on the internet. People who haven't seen a lot of real xingyi and practiced some themselves with a qualified teacher are going to have a hard time distinguishing the little details. Like this dude I was trying to help with taiji before. His posture was all f'ed up, but when I tried to correct him he just claimed he had excellent posture and didn't see any difference between himself and the rest of us... what do you do then? lol.

Also, any of us that have trained with phonies in the past no how easy it is to lie to ourselves even when we do notice something wrong. Martial arts schools create a real familly/clan atmosphere, and it's difficult to turn you back on familly.

So yes, this thread is pretty pointless and a waste of most of our time... but I'm sure plenty of us will be back here tommorrow :p It's entertaining in a Jerry Springer kind of way, lol.

[DragonflyDaoist]

...Hsing i is not just some fly by night system of boxing JP...

I'm sure JP would prefer that you not insult his intelligence. You think that you have earned some sort of prestige or position because you think you know more than others here. You think you can talk down to others, especially if they study a martial system that you had a bad experience with. What rank were you when you left SD?

...the SD Hsing-I movement/body method does NOT look like Hsing-I (at all)...
...take the Hsing yi that Sd offers. it is inherintly different in its movements when you compare it to more traditional systems of xingyi...

You're trying to argue my points from my last post, but you have presented a valid counterpoint. You haven't even said that body movement is necessary to produce the desired energy. Those arguing against SD Xing Yi just keep saying the same things. "It doesn't look like what I do, it doesn't look like what everyone else does."

I've read a good deal of anti-SD propaganda scattered across the 'Net. When SD practitioners respond to these usually ridiculous insinuations and allegations, arguments often blossom. It is interesting to note that SD practitioners speak/write with more wisdom, and more courtesy, than the rest. We are willing to consider new possibilities and ideas about our system presented by outsiders. We even acknowledge that our material isn't quite comparable to that practiced by purist schools (such as a Ba Gua school, or mantis school).

We may not be the best sparring competitors. We may not perform sets as pretty as some. We may even not have the traditionalist's deep insight into the internal systems we study. But two things are clear, and cannot be argued.

1. Shaolin-Do obviously produces better people. It has been proven here.

2. Shaolin-Do practitioners, at least those who take their study seriously, will walk away from life-threatening confrontations. A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face. If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds. I'm not bragging here, but stating that we do what needs to be done -- quickly and efficiently. If you doubt this, come visit me. We will sign waivers and have a go.

Now, having said these things, I've had enough of this thread. Arguments recur, SD slammers never show a valid point, and SD always seems to emerge bruised from repeated attacks yet still as a valid martial system. If anyone feels the overwhelming need to continue debating my points, feel free to PM me. But I think even the guy who began this thread is tired of this endless drivel. I vote that we move on to more interesting topics.

Good day.

[Brad]

You're trying to argue my points from my last post, but you have presented a valid counterpoint. You haven't even said that body movement is necessary to produce the desired energy.
Yes, body movement is necesary to produce the desired energy.


When SD practitioners respond to these usually ridiculous insinuations and allegations, arguments often blossom. It is interesting to note that SD practitioners speak/write with more wisdom, and more courtesy, than the rest.
In your obviously biased opinion of course ;)


We may not be the best sparring competitors. We may not perform sets as pretty as some. We may even not have the traditionalist's deep insight into the internal systems we study. But two things are clear, and cannot be argued.
Anything can be argued :p


1. Shaolin-Do obviously produces better people. It has been proven here.
Nothing's been proven. You're angry that people think your grandmaster is a criminal. Nothing more, nothing less. You're not better than me, and I'm not better than you.


2. Shaolin-Do practitioners, at least those who take their study seriously, will walk away from life-threatening confrontations.
True of most martial artists and reasonalbe human beings.


A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face.

Your teacher holds competitions with sparring rules more restrictive than a lot of sport competitions. That's why people laugh when some of you try to pretend your superior to "sport" schools ;)


If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds. I'm not bragging here, but stating that we do what needs to be done -- quickly and efficiently. If you doubt this, come visit me. We will sign waivers and have a go.
Gene doesn't allow challenges on this board(for obvious legal reasons) but I'm sure if you pm everyone on this thread giving your personal info and offer to pay travel expenses(and maybe a little extra?) if you lose, then I'm sure you'll find someone to prove yourself to :)

[Ralphie]

1. Shaolin-Do obviously produces better people. It has been proven here.

A SD instructor in Texas was recently charged with molesting a younger female student of his. Martial arts are for fighting. People may or may not be be better off because of them. It's a dumb idea to ignore human nature.

2. Shaolin-Do practitioners, at least those who take their study seriously, will walk away from life-threatening confrontations. A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face. If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds. I'm not bragging here, but stating that we do what needs to be done -- quickly and efficiently. If you doubt this, come visit me. We will sign waivers and have a go.

They may or may not walk away. Sport fighting teaches skill. Punching the air does not. I bet you'd have no idea how to break someone's leg or arm in 5 seconds, as I suspect you've never done it. You're living in a fantasy land, and essentially are full of ****.

[MasterKiller]

A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face. If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds. Ok. You're taught instant death dealing methods until it's time for the annual Sin The Karate Tournament, at which point your masters fight in the deadly style known as Point Karate. Am I getting this right?

I've seen that video of the master's sparring. I must admit I didn't see any body bags.

Here is something to ease your irritation.

[wdl]

Your teacher holds competitions with sparring rules more restrictive than a lot of sport competitions.

In what way other than full contact?

-Will

[cerebus]

Well, of course, Golden Tiger misunderstood (or chose to misunderstand) my last post. Interestingly, so did TWS. I thought I put it pretty simply, but maybe not. Let's see if I can simplify a bit further.

1) Just because it's not H-I doesn't mean it isn't effective. Many arts are not H-I, but are still effective.

2) Just because it's not H-I doesn't mean it's not a valid art in it's own way. Many arts are not H-I, but that doesn't mean they are not valid.

However,
3) Just because it uses gross physical movements that are similar to those used in H-I doesn't make it H-I. Karate has movements similar to all the 5 elements of Hsing-I, but they still look like karate when they're being done. The so-called "Hsing-I" done by SD looks like a karateka trying to imitate Hsing-I.

In Hsing-I, the gross physical movements (techniques) are simply the framework through which the specific method of body movement in H-I (the ESSENCE of Hsing-I) is expressed.

I don't know if I can simplify it any further for you than that.

[Brad]

Their sparring in competition is basically karate continuous point sparring (like Master Killer said). Much more restrictive than San Shou/San Da, Muay Thai, Kuoshu San Shou, the various "NHB" groups, western kickboxing, etc. So yeah, more restrictive than the many full contact venues out there. BTW, I should have said "your grandmaster" instead of "your teacher" in my original statement. I've got no idea who this guys actual teacher is.

Also, if anyone wants to insult me personally, or has something else personal to say to me please pm or email me because I'm not going to be able to be on here every single day answering posts directed specifically at me :) I doubt it will be too much of a problem, but just thought I'd give a heads up :p

[BM2]

Here is something to ease your irritation.

MK, I'd doubt that it would make you go away! ;) joking

[wdl]

Their sparring in competition is basically karate continuous point sparring (like Master Killer said). Much more restrictive than San Shou/San Da, Muay Thai, Kuoshu San Shou, the various "NHB" groups, western kickboxing, etc. So yeah, more restrictive than the many full contact venues out there.

First of all, most SD tournaments have point and non-stop divisions. In both divisions groil, down the spine and across the kidneys is legal, light contact to the back of the head. I've seen elbows used and called as points because it was considered effective technique, although there was almost no contact, otherwise he'd have been DQ'd. So long as your not kicking them in the knees, joint locking or biting them it's probably legal. Granted your not going to get points for quad and calf shots. The non-stop divisions can get pretty rough and it's very aggressive. While the full contact element isn't there, it's not point sparring either.

There are very few people in SD that train to fight full contact semi-amatuer type events. Most people are families, mothers and fathers with kids. It's just not that element so the point sparring format works well for people that aren't looking to get in over their head. However, the "restrictive" rules statement isn't really fair. I know alot of San Da events, etc that don't allow contact to areas we do.


-Will

[The Willow Sword]

I'm sure JP would prefer that you not insult his intelligence. You think that you have earned some sort of prestige or position because you think you know more than others here. You think you can talk down to others, especially if they study a martial system that you had a bad experience with. What rank were you when you left SD?


First of all i am not insulting Jp's intelligence. i am asking him if he knows about these training methods specific to Hsing i and that if he has been taught these things at Sd then great,,,,he has yet to reply to my questions anyway so i think it is a little presumptious on your part Dragonflydaoist to speak for him. Plus my questions to JP which he may or may not know the answers to are not to talk down to him but rather to let him know that there is more to that system than just what forms are taught.

I have earned no prestige here on the forums and i certainly do not know more than most here who practice and study in a legitamate and valid CMA. Thank the stars that i do know what i know. But as for really revealing to you what it is that i know,,well,,quite frankly its none of your buisness.

you know you remind me a little bit of myself when i was a dedicated and loyal SD follower. defending the school here on the forums,,naive to the reality that most of us here are privy to.
and for your information i spent nearly 8 years at sd and attained 2nd degree black belt ranking there. so if anyone here knows about SD and what it teaches(and what it does not), aside from the others here who are still with SD, I DO.

what rank are you dragonflydaoist?




Peace,,TWS.

[Jhapa]

1. Shaolin-Do obviously produces better people. It has been proven here.

A SD instructor in Texas was recently charged with molesting a younger female student of his. Martial arts are for fighting. People may or may not be be better off because of them. It's a dumb idea to ignore human nature.

i was told he was kicked out of the system by Master Joe way before he was charged. they were actually in some sort of a relationship, dating,... he told the girls parents regarding there relationship.

[The Willow Sword]

they were actually in some sort of a relationship, dating,... he told the girls parents regarding there relationship


Well that was smart. a 27 year old man telling a 15 year old girls parents that they are in a relationship :rolleyes: Now he got posted on the local news here with warrents for his arrest,,fuked his carreer at SD,,and is now on his way back to the phillipines or wherever.

Joe sure does know how to choose em dont he? ;)


hehe sorry that was a below the belt shot. excuse me please :o



Peace,,TWS

[themeecer]

Well that was smart. a 27 year old man telling a 15 year old girls parents that they are in a relationship :rolleyes: Now he got posted on the local news here with warrents for his arrest,,fuked his carreer at SD,,and is now on his way back to the phillipines or wherever.

Joe sure does know how to choose em dont he? ;)


hehe sorry that was a below the belt shot. excuse me please :o

He sure does .. he chose you at one time. :p There's a below the belt shot right back at ya.

[The Willow Sword]

He sure does .. he chose you at one time. There's a below the belt shot right back at ya

well........at least i am not a pederast. oh and i wasnt "chosen" for anything there,,i was "used". there is a difference. ;)


Peace,,TWS

[lxtruong]

So yes, this thread is pretty pointless and a waste of most of our time... but I'm sure plenty of us will be back here tommorrow :p It's entertaining in a Jerry Springer kind of way, lol.

The most insightful thing said on this thread so far. It's excruiatingly obivous that no one here is going to change anyone else's mind. Yet we can't look away, sorta like a train wreck that no one can look away from.

[BM2]

oh and i wasnt "chosen" for anything there,,i was "used". there is a difference. ;)


TWS

:eek:

Sorrrry, that was below the belt :D

[wdl]

The most insightful thing said on this thread so far. It's excruiatingly obivous that no one here is going to change anyone else's mind. Yet we can't look away, sorta like a train wreck that no one can look away from.

Long my man, you speak the truth.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

First off...you guys need to get out at enjoy the weekend a little more. Second, howdy Ralphie, I was wondering where you were lurking.

Now, on to the show......


well........at least i am not a pederast. oh and i wasnt "chosen" for anything there,,i was "used". there is a difference.

If you are going to use big words Willow, use them right. A pederast is a man/boy thing(Even I had to look it up). As far as I know, the incident you so kindly are refering to was man/girl. You must have overheard it at the last NAMBLA meeting or something..anyhooo.......

As for the deadly sparring matches. As someone pointed out, most of the competitors are not in it for blood. Like myself, they are people that have a family to support and not hard core fighters. Plus, the rules on contact have been restricted more and more over the years because a lot of people just didn't want to risk a payday for a trophy. Thats just the way some silly people are. They like the competition and thats about it.

As for this thread being useless, I disagree. Because of it, I have got to know quiet a few of you, get to have an outlet for the daily frustrations and get to make fun of people like TWS. IMO, this thread rocks!!!! :D

[The Willow Sword]

Hey thanks for the correction GT " At least i am not a Pedophile". there all better now.

as for you making fun of me,,,hey man keep it up,,it still doesnt change things really. refer back to post #845 page 57 to reread what i mean GT. :cool:


anyway,,,back to work.......ta taaa kids it has been fun re-living this whole nightmare. and yet again we have all proven that in these forums the SD threads are the MOST POPULAR,,just look at the # of posts and the # of views by people.

hahaha Gene you must be rolling your eyes and clenching your stress ball :D



Peace,,,TWS

[Golden Tiger]

Hey thanks for the correction GT

No problem, just doing my job.



as for you making fun of me,,,hey man keep it up,,it still doesnt change things really. refer back to post #845 page 57 to reread what i mean GT.

Wish you had posted a like. But I did what you requested..... :rolleyes:



yet again we have all proven that in these forums the SD threads are the MOST POPULAR,,just look at the # of posts and the # of views by people.


All in good fun...

Hey JP, did you get that rope dart file?

[Starchaser107]

... and yet again we have all proven that in these forums the SD threads are the MOST POPULAR,,just look at the # of posts and the # of views by people.


Yet another reminder that quantity does not always coincide with quality. :cool:

[Judge Pen]

So you were taught the fundamentals of 5 Elements and thier corresponding meridians and points on the body? and where the 5 fists come in to play with regards to those Meridian points? and the linkage? were you just told about them or did you study them in depth? and what about health maintainence during this training?were you taught the 8 vital points? what about the 16 point practice methods? or the 8 charatcer secrets? could you elaborate on these? and what about the Nei gong associtaed with hsing i? Hsing i is not just some fly by night system of boxing JP. it is a whole system of itself ecompassing many principles and guidilnes for its martial practice.

if you were taught all that at your Sd school then great. however it was not taught like that at the texas school.


Well, I thought we were talking about judging one's body mechanics and comparing them to anothers based on the observation of the form. My point was that some SD schools teach body mechanics better than others. I didn't know there would be math on this quiz.

As far as the meridian points and the pathways of chi between those points (and the correspoonding effect they have on the internal organs) yes, it was discussed. I was not taught, as a part of the Hsing-Ie, per se, 16 point practice method or the 8 vital points. If so, it was not identified as such, but I often discover that what I was taught differs often in terminology but less in practice. I do find that somewhat lacking in SD instruction. It is, somewhat, a fault of mine too since I don't ask questions about the terminology as much as it's application.

I've said it here, and I'll say it again. I was taught good hsing-Ie body mechanics. I was taught chi kung, drills, and applications to the Hsing Ie. I only spent 2 years learning hsing-Ie which means my knoweldge is less than a drop in the Hsing-Ie bucket. If I stop studying SD and get the chance to learn from somebody who simply teaches Hsing-Ie or tai chi (with applications and not just hippies moving slow in a pot-induced daze) of PaKua, then I would love to focus on simply one style. And my silence on this point was coincidental. I was traveling for the last few days.

[PangQuan]

I have never really looked into SD history, is it of japanese heritage? The only reason I ask is the "Do" aspect. Ill post this question to Judge Pen sinse it seems he is the SD guy here.

[norther practitioner]

lol.. Pang.. do a search.. they've been "arguing" this for a long time..

[BM2]

Never has so many, said so much , about so little. :o

[kwaichang]

HEY limp sword or is it willow sword? How were you used I know where you came from and know your background in the arts. And other than what you have read and the fact that you got your butt kicked somewhere you only know what you read. Why so much anger WS for someone who pretends to understand the TAO you dont show it. KC :)

[Golden Tiger]

lol.. Pang.. do a search.. they've been "arguing" this for a long time..


Yeah, but it does make the day go by faster.....


JP, did you get that vid????

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, but it does make the day go by faster.....


JP, did you get that vid????

Yes, I watched it last night. Very nice. Interesting moniker for your e-mail! :D Congratulations, btw. ;)

PQ, the "Do" means "the way." Yes, it's spelled the way the Americans would spell the Japanese word in English, and is possibly part of the Japanese trappings that SD took up. It is sometimes spelled "Tao" which, to my understanding, is Chinese for "the way" and, depending on the dialect, pronounced the same way.

[Judge Pen]

HEY limp sword or is it willow sword? How were you used I know where you came from and know your background in the arts. And other than what you have read and the fact that you got your butt kicked somewhere you only know what you read. Why so much anger WS for someone who pretends to understand the TAO you dont show it. KC :)

KC, jeez man. We don't need any trolls on our side of the fence man. If your going to show support, do it constructively and leave ther personal attacks out.

[kwaichang]

i know willow sword personally and am tired of his attitude, because of his false statements and lies due to his personal deflation of his ego he tries to cut down Master Joe and SD and btw who died and made you the king , to say what "we" want kc

[wdl]

i know willow sword personally and am tired of his attitude, because of his false statements and lies due to his personal deflation of his ego he tries to cut down Master Joe and SD and btw who died and made you the king , to say what "we" want kc

kwaichang, how do I politely say this...

JP's absolutely right. If you want people to positively view us and give us a favorable opinion trolling isn't going to do it. Our peers here realize there are good people inside the SD organization even if they aren't convinced of it's "validity". The last thing we need is our personal character starting to be questioned and you've started it down that slippy slope. As far at TWS or limp sword, or whatever your calling him goes, I really don't care. One day he's smiles, the next day he isn't. Maybe he's bi-polar and needs some ritalin.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

btw who died and made you the king

If it wasn't bad enough fighting with those on the outside....... :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

i know willow sword personally and am tired of his attitude, because of his false statements and lies due to his personal deflation of his ego he tries to cut down Master Joe and SD and btw who died and made you the king , to say what "we" want kc

No one died and made me "king," it's just my opinion for whatever it's worth. My opinion is that there's enough negativity surrounding SD that "we" don't need to add to it by attacking people that you may know personally on an internet forum where you are posting "anonymously," but different people have different temperaments.

BTW, I think I know you, at least know of you very well, and if I'm right you are highly respected for your skills. Both inside and outside of SD.

[Ralphie]

Yo Golden Tiger, what's up? Hope you and your fam are doing well. I'm here, chillin' like a villain. However, and this is for you REM fans, you can run a carbon date test on this thread, and you will find, it's all been said before. As you well know, I have my opinions about SD, but I've found that a great deal of KF is promoted by sheisters. So, most of my arguments have evolved outside of why SD sucks (I already know why :) ; attempting to understand what makes sense in MA and what doesn't. For example, the discussion of Qi on the other page. I don't believe in hocus pocus, but I do believe that you can become more efficient on many levels by practicing qi gong. Probably the things that I will argue still, are when people give bad or dangerous advice. Things like biting as a good method to defeat a grappler, trying to convince the masses that sinking into a horse stance will prevent a takedown, etc.

Just out of general interest, I emailed tws after his defeat, and I think he's sincere in his criticism of SD. An observation: the "fables" created by many SD peeps are aggravating in the same way your least favorite politician blatantly spins bs to advance his/her position. I'll say one disparaging thing for fun...Kuaichang is the guy found at every SD dojo, who has the tattered black belt, and engages in every lower belt sparring session to show how tough and mean he is. Oh, how the rest of the world laughs at you and your ego, Kuai.

[lxtruong]

See, it's like a train wreck. Better than Days of Our Lives, more catfighting.

[wdl]

See, it's like a train wreck. Better than Days of Our Lives, more catfighting.

Days of Our Lives is boring, just like this thread. :p

We need the Got Qi? Girls(TM Gene Ching lol) to make an appearance.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

Days of Our Lives is boring, just like this thread. :p

We need the Got Qi? Girls(TM Gene Ching lol) to make an appearance.

-Will

Two words: Lianne Lin

[kwaichang]

Ralphie you are sooooo wrong and as for those who laugh. who cares anyway those who speak do not know. I will e-mail you my credentials if you want then you may laugh no more. or you may again who cares. Dont talk about something you do not know. BTW who do you train with or do you kc :p

[sean_stonehart]

Hey, JP, who died and made you the king of which Asian women are hot?


:D


Psssst... don't question the JP... he knows these things... ;)

:D :D :D

[MasterKiller]

Who died and made you the king of what JP knows?

[sean_stonehart]

Who died and made you the king of what JP knows?

No deaths yet, but I've seen pictorial evidence of his hot Asian female skills & should be meeting his girlfriend this weekend... ;)

[Judge Pen]

Hey, JP, who died and made you the king of which Asian women are hot?


:D

Years of in depth, hands-on, research.

[PangQuan]

lol.. Pang.. do a search.. they've been "arguing" this for a long time..

K, so i googlized it and its weird. I see chinese and japanese terminology mixed, chinese style names by guys wearing Gi's and doing Kata. Its very confusing. From what I gather is that people decendent from japanese styles really liked chinese shaolin kung fu so they swiched over but kept some of the "old" ways.

everywhere i go its a little different. :confused: :confused: :eek:



;)

[wdl]

JP: One word: "wow"

Questioning JP on asian women is like questioning if water is really needed to sustain life.



-Will

[kwaichang]

My foopa you are all kings of your imaginary domain of CMA or karate. so easy to bait yet I do not hear from WS kc

[wdl]

Just don't ask him if something is a sport. He's a little shakey in that category. ;)

Golf & Asian women are TWO different things. Unless of course your girlfriend is Asian and plays golf. :D

Is hunting asian women a sport? :)

-WIll

[themeecer]

KC ... I go different ways in my reactions to some of the posters on this site. Sometimes I try to make more logical arguments and other times I just get ticked off and tell them what I really think. Heck ... sometimes I get ticked at those on our side of the camp who try to bend over backwards to accommodate our critics. (And not speaking of JP here)

I've even seen some that I wanted to beat to a pulp if I ever met them turn around and not be so bad. MK is one. Another, surprisingly is Fu Pow. Now that one blows my mind. He and I are on the same side of the fence on the thread discussing Chi.
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36070&page=7&pp=40

And I've called WS, Limp Sword before too.

[kwaichang]

Porn stars are real athletes they have stamina strength and technique not to mention strategy kc

[wdl]

Porn stars are real athletes they have stamina strength and technique not to mention strategy kc


That was my point with stripers. By the way they were defining it, stripping would have been a sport as well.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

Heck ... sometimes I get ticked at those on our side of the camp who try to bend over backwards to accommodate our critics. (And not speaking of JP here)

****, who needs enemies with friends like these......

As for getting mad over this stuff, ain't gonna do no good (cue redneck accent). Use it as training is humility then get on about your business.