Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Vajramusti]

My My

Such bad imitations and such a long and seemingly endless thread. Ugh.

[tattooedmonk]

You just gave this thread what it needed to get to 10,000! With the videos, can we start with proper posture , structural alignment, and mechanics?:eek::D

[Empty_Cup]

my typo... thanks i corrected it.



the "sequence" is the same. but sin the and bill leonard both ignore or are ignorant of some of the things that make chen tai chi chuan different. look at the direction of the hips vs the hands with most any chen xin jia (new frame 17th gen) you will see at least similarities in "body method"

============================================
he is a clip of me doing the start of yang and the start of chen xin jia. i am not an expert and many would say it is not even chen tai chi but i do think it is approaching the right path in some ways. in addition i have found value in the martial ideas i reverse engineered from practicing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvaC2h1X5qw
============================================

i think these guys and many of their students have some great chen tai chi chuan skills.

feng zhiqiang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3A_0zCbYNM&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNP8s2wf2CA
==========================================
chen yu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsvspxBUvZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAkfGSkcklg&feature=related
==========================================
chen xioawang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqH-lnbrgA8
==========================================
Chen Xiao Xing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIDPVkxUKDk&feature=related

Ok, so you agree the sequence is the same, albeit with slight differences. In sin the chen tai chi sample #5 you posted, do you think the "body method" is drastically different from what it is supposed to look like in your opinion?

[Empty_Cup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqN92Ij2KFg

the bow that this man does right before doing something like tai chi, is that a kung fu bow he did?


NO! ITS A KARATE BOW! IN A KARATE GI! WHILE DOING CHINESE TAI CHI!
WHERE'S MY TU TU

So, let me get this straight. You're ripping on a guy who is publicly promoting the practice of tai chi because of the way he bows and what he is wearing? :rolleyes:

[brucereiter]

Ok, so you agree the sequence is the same, albeit with slight differences. In sin the chen tai chi sample #5 you posted, do you think the "body method" is drastically different from what it is supposed to look like in your opinion?

i think the sequence is exactly the same. it is the method of performing the movements that is so different and off track.

my opinion is that what sin the and bill leonard show in these videos lack the body method or "shen fa" of tai chi chuan in general and chen tai chi chuan specifically.
what leonard and the show is drastically different from what it is "supposed to look like"
i think sin the did not learn chen tai chi chuan in indonesia when he was a kid.

i think sin the learned it from notes or book or video or maybe from a few lessons but did not have actual instructions in the methods of chen tai chi chuan nor did he spend time practicing and learning it.

================================================== ==
humans are stuck on labels ... and this is good it makes communication much easier.
for example if i ask someone to hand me a hammer and they hand me a jewelers screwdriver and they call that screwdriver a hammer we now have confusion but if we both can agree on language we can agree that a hammer is a hammer and a screw driver is a screw driver and even though they are both tools they both have different uses. i hope this analogy makes sense...

[brucereiter]

So, let me get this straight. You're ripping on a guy who is publicly promoting the practice of tai chi because of the way he bows and what he is wearing? :rolleyes:

empty cup, what do you think of sin the's demonstration of chen tai chi chuan? or of sin the's senior student bill leonard who has been with him the longest

i wish people used their real names i feel silly calling someone empty cup.

[brucereiter]

You just gave this thread what it needed to get to 10,000! With the videos, can we start with proper posture , structural alignment, and mechanics?:eek::D

look at the way sin the and bill leonard perform "six sealings/four closings". what are they doing? why are they doing it that way? what is their understanding of the martial applications of that posture? what is their understanding of the health benefits of this posture? why do they do it in a almost unrecognizable fashion to every other chen tai chi people (good or bad)?

[Judge Pen]

So, let me get this straight. You're ripping on a guy who is publicly promoting the practice of tai chi because of the way he bows and what he is wearing? :rolleyes:

I don't care what someone wears, it's the movement, the method and the understanding that's the issue. I took a local chen tai chi class with another buddy of mine. I love my teachers, and they taught excellent applications for our tai chi, but the attention to detail in that one class was greater than I received in my SD tai chi training. The problem with the other local class was that they didn't fight, spar or teach applications.

Before people are too harsh on people practicing SD, keep in mind that not everyone lives in a "martial arts mecca". Some people, especially in areas of rural Appalachia and many parts of the south, have very limited options in training in martial arts. I can tell you that my SD training was miles beyond many of the other options that I had growing up. The teacher cared and was conscientious in his training. We trained hard, fought hard and laughed hard. Even though there were limitations in the art itself, it was better than the generic karate and TKD classes that were around. I made a point to spar people from those classes and could tell that my training was better. When I moved to a more populated area, I continued to meet, train and spar with as many people from other arts that I could, and I still felt like I could hold my own with anyone with the same level of experience as me. So I can sit back now and pick at everything that is wrong with SD. That's easy. But I can't discount what is right with it either. The marketing and stories are a farce, but if you have a teacher that cares, and you work hard at making it work, then there is plenty good there. But it needs to be labeled for what it is: a patch-work system that is a blend of kung tao, karate and kung fu that is it's own animal. The Pa Kua is applicable, but it's only a shadow of traditional pa kua. the Tai chi is applicable, but it is only a shadow of traditional tai chi.

This is the best I can say about SD. I will teach my kids what I have learned. How to apply what I know. I won't tell them bogus stories of hairy monks and lineages that no one knows about. I will say this is how you respond if this occurs and work their asses off. They will be fine. I am.

[tattooedmonk]

look at the way sin the and bill leonard perform "six sealings/four closings". what are they doing? why are they doing it that way? what is their understanding of the martial applications of that posture? what is their understanding of the health benefits of this posture? why do they do it in a almost unrecognizable fashion to every other chen tai chi people (good or bad)? it's just plain sloppy, no attention paid to detail. As with all the material. It's like no one cares.

[tattooedmonk]

I don't care what someone wears, it's the movement, the method and the understanding that's the issue. I took a local chen tai chi class with another buddy of mine. I love my teachers, and they taught excellent applications for our tai chi, but the attention to detail in that one class was greater than I received in my SD tai chi training. The problem with the other local class was that they didn't fight, spar or teach applications.

Before people are too harsh on people practicing SD, keep in mind that not everyone lives in a "martial arts mecca". Some people, especially in areas of rural Appalachia and many parts of the south, have very limited options in training in martial arts. I can tell you that my SD training was miles beyond many of the other options that I had growing up. The teacher cared and was conscientious in his training. We trained hard, fought hard and laughed hard. Even though there were limitations in the art itself, it was better than the generic karate and TKD classes that were around. I made a point to spar people from those classes and could tell that my training was better. When I moved to a more populated area, I continued to meet, train and spar with as many people from other arts that I could, and I still felt like I could hold my own with anyone with the same level of experience as me. So I can sit back now and pick at everything that is wrong with SD. That's easy. But I can't discount what is right with it either. The marketing and stories are a farce, but if you have a teacher that cares, and you work hard at making it work, then there is plenty good there. But it needs to be labeled for what it is: a patch-work system that is a blend of kung tao, karate and kung fu that is it's own animal. The Pa Kua is applicable, but it's only a shadow of traditional pa kua. the Tai chi is applicable, but it is only a shadow of traditional tai chi.

This is the best I can say about SD. I will teach my kids what I have learned. How to apply what I know. I won't tell them bogus stories of hairy monks and lineages that no one knows about. I will say this is how you respond if this occurs and work their asses off. They will be fine. I am.Perfect JP

[brucereiter]

i have met and trained with several people who train "shaolin do" who have built a decent understanding of lets use tai chi chuan for an example but these people are not doing what sin the or bill leonard teach. i appreciate many things about my experience in atlanta learning the internal side of the system but i did have to reach outside of the system to expand my understanding.

one of the things that attracted me to the classes at the csc atlanta is it was the only school in atlanta at the time that i found people sparring and practicing tai chi chuan applications.
to this day i do think gary grooms taught me good tai chi chuan and am glad to have had him as a teacher. i just wish i did not have to endure all of the stories, mysteries, misinformation and lies involved with the system.

[Judge Pen]

its just with the internet, its easy to research something, someone, or some style. do some work on it before just choosing so fast.

Sure, but not when I started this journey in 1989. Plus my first teacher didn't talk much about lineage or history. We just trained hard and fought hard. I was happy with that. You can look at the history of my posts on this forum and see the evolution of my thought on the lineage and my affirmation of what is good about SD by my actions.

[Drake]

Sure, but not when I started this journey in 1989. Plus my first teacher didn't talk much about lineage or history. We just trained hard and fought hard. I was happy with that. You can look at the history of my posts on this forum and see the evolution of my thought on the lineage and my affirmation of what is good about SD by my actions.

If you're good, I can give you a broom and you'll eventually be able to slay legions with it.

Nobody is faulting you, man.

[tattooedmonk]

As I understand it DO is also Southern Chinese, Do ,dao, tao!?

[tattooedmonk]

You have issue with me now!? You can save your holier than all kung fu attitude for someone else. How about "Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do!? Wasnt he chinese with achinese background in martial arts?! As I understand it DO is Dao/ Tao that's the translation :D:eek::cool:

[shen ku]

Just curious if any one knows anything on these two systems,

shaolin karate do (not shaolin do, its some where out of the U. S.)

shaolin do norte

[Drake]

You have issue with me now!? You can save your holier than all kung fu attitude for someone else. How about "Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do!? Wasnt he chinese with achinese background in martial arts?! As I understand it DO is Dao/ Tao that's the translation :D:eek::cool:

Talk about paper thin skin.

[sean_stonehart]

Just curious if any one knows anything on these two systems,

shaolin karate do (not shaolin do, its some where out of the U. S.)

shaolin do norte

Dunno about the first one.

The second one is Buk Siu Lum from Chan Kwok Wai. Shaolin do norte is Brazilian Portugese for "Northern Shaolin".

[tattooedmonk]

Talk about paper thin skin. What I cant respond to what the man said?

Talk about internet troll.

This isnt the first time, you have a problem with me, Drake?

I mean really, you've trolled me like three times?
who the hell are you anyway? the green red orange yellow troll?

Also, you said I should ask about your background and training in a pm then you bounced, wtf? until you can answer that your just a troll to me.

[Drake]

What I cant respond to what the man said?

Talk about internet troll.

This isnt the first time, you have a problem with me, Drake?

I mean really, you've trolled me like three times?
who the hell are you anyway? the green red orange yellow troll?

Also, you said I should ask about your background and training in a pm then you bounced, wtf? until you can answer that your just a troll to me.

What in the hell are you talking about?

[tattooedmonk]

anyone else? JKD is modern.

holier than all kung fu? nah, i am HOLIER than fake gung fu with false teachings and history. shoot for that fact, many on this forum are holier than shaolin do. hahahahahahahaSo what? you asked for an example ... now you have two...we can keep going.

there are exception to every rule , as you have found out for yourself.

I have seen / heard chinese , english , spanish and japanese terminology used in kung fu classes and on websites.

I mean if you live in a country that speaks lets say spanish and you have your kung fu website in chinese , you will be hard pressed to get anyone other that chinese. and in a population that speaks spanish there probably wont be that many chinese people....

Basically you use whatever terminology you need to convey the thought or idea.

the name is just a label, but I see where in this instance the name does bleed into the practice of the art.

SD is a hybrid art of chinese , japanese and indonesian decent. period

[tattooedmonk]

What in the hell are you talking about?oh so sorry my mistake, wrong troll.:D:eek:

[brucereiter]

i would love to have sin the tell us where he learned chen tai chi chuan and hsing i as it is shown in these clips. http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolindointernal?feature=mhee

what do the old time shaolin do people have to say about these versions of chen tai chi chuan and hsing i? do they still claim that the reason ALL other tai chi chuan looks so different is that everyone else is doing post communist sport wushu? sin the has said he "mastered" this. what does he mean by that?

[Drake]

oh so sorry my mistake, wrong troll.:D:eek:

By that, you mean wrong manic episode?

[Empty_Cup]

... But it [SD] needs to be labeled for what it is: a patch-work system that is a blend of kung tao, karate and kung fu that is it's own animal. ...


...

SD is a hybrid art of chinese , japanese and indonesian decent. period

I've seen it mentioned in this thread a couple times that SD is a blend of some kind of japanese style/karate. Just out of curiosity, what part of the system is supposedly karate or some japanese style?

I can understand being a blend of chinese and indonesian influences but where would japanese influence have come in? And, since those with a karate background have actually said it looks nothing like karate, which specific form or other thing is supposedly from karate influence?

@ brucereiter: Re: Your post a few posts back. I am planning to look through the videos and respond when I get some more time.

[tattooedmonk]

By that, you mean wrong manic episode?What I mean is you chose to take my post and single out something that didn't contribute to the topic of conversation, so what gives!? U have issue with me for some reason!? Seems like you are the one with thin skin.

[Judge Pen]

I've seen it mentioned in this thread a couple times that SD is a blend of some kind of japanese style/karate. Just out of curiosity, what part of the system is supposedly karate or some japanese style?

I can understand being a blend of chinese and indonesian influences but where would japanese influence have come in? And, since those with a karate background have actually said it looks nothing like karate, which specific form or other thing is supposedly from karate influence?

@ brucereiter: Re: Your post a few posts back. I am planning to look through the videos and respond when I get some more time.

You can read some early articles and see that Sin The also says he studied judo. That and the Japanese trappings, gis and terminology are what I am referring too. I can't point out specific techniques that are identifiably Japanese, but it's clear that the flow and rhythm of the art is it's own.

[Lucas]

Are the gi's in shaolin-do judo gi or karate gi? the reinforced lapel, arm/elbow and knees on a judo gi make it an ideal tool for throwing for sure.

[XinKuzi]

Those videos of Sin... sinfully bad.

[Drake]

What I mean is you chose to take my post and single out something that didn't contribute to the topic of conversation, so what gives!? U have issue with me for some reason!? Seems like you are the one with thin skin.

How is me pointing out your tantrum and clearly high level of emotional sensitivity indicative of any sensitiviy of my own?

That makes no **** sense. But I'll keep playing.

[Empty_Cup]

You can read some early articles and see that Sin The also says he studied judo. That and the Japanese trappings, gis and terminology are what I am referring too. I can't point out specific techniques that are identifiably Japanese, but it's clear that the flow and rhythm of the art is it's own.

While I agree the trappings, gis, and terminology don't help the situation, it's something that's been discussed at length on this thread and has not really led to much after a lot of debate. I remember that you provided much of the counterpoints for why these aspects don't diminish the art. As far as Sin The training in judo, that falls under cross training. While he might have used his training in judo to give perspective to other techniques, that's a far weaker statement than saying, "The style he teaches is a blend of japanese styles with chinese and indonesian styles."

But I don't think your main point is to try to open up the debate again about whether SD is a blend of styles but rather to get to the heart of the marketing machine and demand proof of claims. I agree that claims should be backed up and that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. I personally can't offer any support other than speculation because I wasn't there at the conception of SD. If this is the heart of the debate, then that's fine. I think it is and has been good discussion.

[Iron Palm]

i would love to have sin the tell us where he learned chen tai chi chuan and hsing i as it is shown in these clips. http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolindointernal?feature=mhee

what do the old time shaolin do people have to say about these versions of chen tai chi chuan and hsing i? do they still claim that the reason ALL other tai chi chuan looks so different is that everyone else is doing post communist sport wushu? sin the has said he "mastered" this. what does he mean by that?

I second this inquiry. I asked a similar question many pages back: what is the official explanation for the presence of Cheng Manching's Yang Tai Chi form in the Shaolin-Do curriculum? Seeing as it was created by CMC, it seems there are only 3 viable scenarios:

(A) Ie Chang Ming and/or SKT trained with CMC himself;
(B) Ie Chang Ming and/or SKT trained with a student of CMC; or
(C) Ie Chang Ming and/or SKT got it from CMC's book.

What else is there?

I have zero knowledge on the subject, but wikipedia says (A) is probably impossible:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Man-ch'ing
At best, ICM/SKT learned from CMC in a seminar format, but it doesn't sound like they could have trained with him for any significant length of time.

While possible, (B) isn't flattering. As Bruce noted, SKT proclaims to have "mastered" tai chi. In whose opinion? A wandering student of CMC, training a newly created form?

Most plausible is (C). This situation makes book learning somewhere in the SD supply chain look fairly likely, and if it happened once it casts doubt on the entire system.

[kwaichang]

Shui Jao uniforms are similar to Judo Gi, The Gi is based on a Kimono design brought about by Jigoro Kano and that is based upon traditional Chinese clothing. So who knows, GMT told me that the Tai Chi we do was practiced in the Chen Village and that it wasnt far from the Shaolin Monastery. So the monks incorporated it and that is what we do , I know now that isnt true. Seemed plausible at the time though. The Hsing Ie is similar to what I have seen in books and in person so I will cont to perform it. KC

[kwaichang]

It said in the article that over 10,000 people in asia practice the Tai Chi of which u speak so GMT may have learned it from one of those. as far a Japanese Karate the only art that may be similar may be Shorin ji Kempo a japanese Shaolin style. KC:)

[tattooedmonk]

You have issue with me now!? You can save your holier than all kung fu attitude for someone else. How about "Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do!? Wasnt he chinese with a chinese background in martial arts?! As I understand it DO is Dao/ Tao that's the translation :D:eek::cool:How is this a tantrum? sensative much.? get the sand out of your man-gina.

I am attempting to learn why it is you would throw that in there for no reason. just a troll. here ya go more fodder.:rolleyes:idiot.

[sean_stonehart]

It said in the article that over 10,000 people in asia practice the Tai Chi of which u speak so GMT may have learned it from one of those. as far a Japanese Karate the only art that may be similar may be Shorin ji Kempo a japanese Shaolin style. KC:)

Eh the only thing Shaolin about Shorinji is marketing. It's Hakko-ryu jujutsu (IIRC) revised.

Far more than 10k practice CMC's version of Yang.

[kwaichang]

No Shorinji Kempo is not Hakko Ryu Ju jitsu. It is more Karate esk. KC

[sean_stonehart]

No Shorinji Kempo is not Hakko Ryu Ju jitsu. It is more Karate esk. KC

Hmmm... ok... I need to tell some SJK people I know they're incorrect then... :rolleyes:

[Drake]

How is this a tantrum? sensative much.? get the sand out of your man-gina.

I am attempting to learn why it is you would throw that in there for no reason. just a troll. here ya go more fodder.:rolleyes:idiot.

You need more punctuation training. Your grammar discipline is weak.

[brucereiter]

1849 su kong tai jin was born in fukien provence
1850 sukong tai jin was found by a shaolin monk and taken into the temple
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1875 "su kong tai jin/ ""council""destroy the temple instead of allowing the ching government army / a traitor monk to destroy the temple ??date??"
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1880 ie chang ming was born in fukien province. At some point entered the shaolin temple and then followed su kong tai jin into the mountains.
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1911 ching dynasty falls, some time after ie chand ming kills ching soldiers and flees to bandung indonesia. (may have left after 1928 since ie is said to have studied with su kong until his death???)
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1928 su kong tai jin died in fukien provence mountains
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1930 "jiang rong qiao creates the ""original baguazhang form"" some time in the 30's I think???"
1931
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1943 sin kwang the' born in bandung indonesia
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1948 hiang kwang the born in bandung indonesia/ sin kwang the' began sandburn training for 6 months
1949
1950 "sin kwang the started to study at ie chang mings school ""central shaolin wushu school"" in bandung"
1951
1952
1953
1954 "sin kwang the studied ""lower school""
1955 "sin kwang the studied ""lower school"" and awarded black belt level 1"
1956 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school""
1957 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school""
1958 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school"" and awarded black belt level 3 /some time around 15 years old sin the meets ""maters wu"" and is introduced to internal."
1959 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school""
1960 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school""
1961 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school""
1962 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school""
1963 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" "
1964 sin kwang the awarded black belt level 5. sin kwang the moved to lexington ky to start college. Same year he starts teaching shaolin in lexington.
1965
1966
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1968 ie chang ming awarded sin kwang the 10th degree red belt grandmaster/1968 mideast national tournament, bill walace competed.
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1971 national karate grand championship sat sept 18 1971 u.k. coliseum
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1976 ie chang ming dies in bandung indonesia/some claim he died in 1968. (some say 68 some 76???)
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1978 "sin kwang the opens the ""sports center""
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1994 "?? System is named ""shaolin do"" ?? But may have been reffered to as ""shaolin do"" some time before."
1995 "sin kwang the and james halladay release the book ""shaolin do secrets from the temple""
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2011 http://www.shaolin-do.com/
2012 sin the admits to making up parts of the shaolin do system and to lying about some parts of the shaolin do system and the material he teaches.

[brucereiter]

>>>>>>1964 sin kwang the awarded black belt level 5. sin kwang the moved to lexington ky to start college. Same year he starts teaching shaolin in lexington.
1965
1966
1967
1968 ie chang ming awarded sin kwang the 10th degree red belt grandmaster
<<<<<<

more conflicting information... .... ....
recently sin the claimed he was made grand master "level 5" as stated on the rank cert.
but he has also claimed that in 1968 ie chang ming gave him the title grand master.

which is it? was he grand master after coming to the states or before? he has claimed both.

[Lucas]

I wonder how many experience points he needed to reach level 5...

[Syn7]

in all my life i've never heard that before. Gm level 5. Wow.

And who exactly awards this new title? Anyone who admits to lying and making sh1t up is suspect in ALL other things. He has poor integrity and that travels through all facets of his life and anything that comes out of his mouth.

[Syn7]

I wonder how many experience points he needed to reach level 5...

He prolly just killed minor animals caught foraging. 2xp at a time. Only took him 37 years. Not bad. I heard an Orc kicked his ass tho.

33 pages to go kids!!!

[Leto]

i would love to have sin the tell us where he learned chen tai chi chuan and hsing i as it is shown in these clips. http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolindointernal?feature=mhee

what do the old time shaolin do people have to say about these versions of chen tai chi chuan and hsing i? do they still claim that the reason ALL other tai chi chuan looks so different is that everyone else is doing post communist sport wushu? sin the has said he "mastered" this. what does he mean by that?

*sigh*. I've never seen him do internal before. But it looks just like everything else I've seen him do. If I had any doubt before, I can't believe he legitimately studied those arts now. He doesn't display any evidence of having studied from someone that knows the internal arts.

[bodhi warrior]

Ive seen Sin The' do the Yang 64 form on the KET series back in the '80's. It actually looked pretty good.

[brucereiter]

Ive seen Sin The' do the Yang 64 form on the KET series back in the '80's. It actually looked pretty good.

I have videos of sin the doing yang tai chi and I will admit that sin the does a bit better with his yang performances but I still question where and when he learned it and think he is missing some key emements. It certainly was not passed down from "Shaolin temple" to ie Chang Ming to sin kwang the.

[brucereiter]

*sigh*. I've never seen him do internal before. But it looks just like everything else I've seen him do. If I had any doubt before, I can't believe he legitimately studied those arts now. He doesn't display any evidence of having studied from someone that knows the internal arts.

Kinda sad huh? I really hope people in and out of the system will observe what is on these videos objectively and that his current students will demand he truth from sin kwang the.

[Judge Pen]

I don't know about "official" names, but it was called "shaolin-do" in 1989 when I started training.

[shen ku]

I knew it as shaolin do in 1985 when I started

[brucereiter]

from the information available regarding the copyright the first use of the name "shaolin do" was 1978 and the first commercial use was 1985.

>>>>>
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=77dgv9.2.1

Word Mark
GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO
Translations
SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.
Goods and Services
IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: martial arts instruction. FIRST USE: 19781015. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19850615
Mark Drawing Code
(3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code
07.01.06 - Other houses
26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded
Serial Number
78374677
Filing Date
February 26, 2004
Current Filing Basis
1A
Original Filing Basis
1A
Published for Opposition
June 28, 2005
Registration Number
2997293
Registration Date
September 20, 2005
Owner
(REGISTRANT) The, Sin Kwang INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 11542 N. Poema Pl. #103 Chatsworth CALIFORNIA 91311
Attorney of Record
Craig O. Correll
Disclaimer
NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE SHAOLIN DO APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark
SERVICE MARK
Register
PRINCIPAL
Other Data
The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.
Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE

Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results from the TARR web server.
This page was generated by the TARR system on 2006-03-10 04:49:06 ET

Serial Number: 78374677

Registration Number: 2997293

Mark


(words only): GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO

Standard Character claim: No

Current Status: Registered.

Date of Status: 2005-09-20

Filing Date: 2004-02-26

Transformed into a National Application: No

Registration Date: 2005-09-20

Register: Principal

Law Office Assigned: LAW OFFICE 113

If you are the applicant or applicant's attorney and have questions about this file, please contact the Trademark Assistance Center at TrademarkAssistanceCenter@uspto.gov

Current Location: 650 -Publication And Issue Section

Date In Location: 2005-09-20


LAST APPLICANT(S)/OWNER(S) OF RECORD

1. The, Sin Kwang

Address:
The, Sin Kwang
(address and tel deleted)


GOODS AND/OR SERVICES

International Class: 041
martial arts instruction
First Use Date: 1978-10-15
First Use in Commerce Date: 1985-06-15

Basis: 1(a)


ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

Disclaimer: SHAOLIN DO

Name Portrait Consent: The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.

Translation: SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.

Design Search Code(s):
07.01.06 - Other houses
26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded


MADRID PROTOCOL INFORMATION

(NOT AVAILABLE)


PROSECUTION HISTORY

2005-09-20 - Registered - Principal Register

2005-06-28 - Published for opposition

2005-06-08 - Notice of publication

2005-03-23 - Law Office Publication Review Completed

2005-03-22 - Assigned To LIE

2005-03-17 - Approved for Pub - Principal Register (Initial exam)

2005-03-17 - Amendment From Applicant Entered

2005-03-14 - Communication received from applicant

2005-03-14 - FAX RECEIVED

2004-09-17 - Examiner's Amendment And/Or Priority Action E-Mailed

2004-09-17 - Examiners Amendment And/Or Priority Action - Completed

2004-09-15 - Case file assigned to examining attorney

2004-03-15 - New Application Entered In Tram


CORRESPONDENCE INFORMATION

Correspondent
Craig O. Correll (Attorney of record)

Craig O. Correll
CRAIG O CORRELL ATTORNEY AT LAW
(address and tel deleted)



===================================

http://www.loc.gov/cgi-bin/formprocessor/copyright/locis.pl

(Combined Search)
Search For: TITL/SHAOLIN DO
Item 1 of 1

1. Registration Number: PAu-1-493-404
Title: Shaolin do.
Description: videocassette.
Note: Cataloged from appl.
Claimant: Sin Kwang The
Created: 1980
Registered: 9Aug90
Author on © Application: Sin Kwang The.
Previous Related Version: Martial arts movements preexisting.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: selection & ordering of exercises.
Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
Special Codes: 3/D
<<<<<<

[kwaichang]

What are SJK people? KC:)

[Old Noob]

from the information available regarding the copyright the first use of the name "shaolin do" was 1978 and the first commercial use was 1985.

>>>>>
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=77dgv9.2.1

Word Mark
GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO
Translations
SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.
Goods and Services
IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: martial arts instruction. FIRST USE: 19781015. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19850615
Mark Drawing Code
(3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code
07.01.06 - Other houses
26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded
Serial Number
78374677
Filing Date
February 26, 2004
Current Filing Basis
1A
Original Filing Basis
1A
Published for Opposition
June 28, 2005
Registration Number
2997293
Registration Date
September 20, 2005
Owner
(REGISTRANT) The, Sin Kwang INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 11542 N. Poema Pl. #103 Chatsworth CALIFORNIA 91311
Attorney of Record
Craig O. Correll
Disclaimer
NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE SHAOLIN DO APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark
SERVICE MARK
Register
PRINCIPAL
Other Data
The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.
Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE

Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results from the TARR web server.
This page was generated by the TARR system on 2006-03-10 04:49:06 ET

Serial Number: 78374677

Registration Number: 2997293

Mark


(words only): GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO

Standard Character claim: No

Current Status: Registered.

Date of Status: 2005-09-20

Filing Date: 2004-02-26

Transformed into a National Application: No

Registration Date: 2005-09-20

Register: Principal

Law Office Assigned: LAW OFFICE 113

If you are the applicant or applicant's attorney and have questions about this file, please contact the Trademark Assistance Center at TrademarkAssistanceCenter@uspto.gov

Current Location: 650 -Publication And Issue Section

Date In Location: 2005-09-20


LAST APPLICANT(S)/OWNER(S) OF RECORD

1. The, Sin Kwang

Address:
The, Sin Kwang
(address and tel deleted)


GOODS AND/OR SERVICES

International Class: 041
martial arts instruction
First Use Date: 1978-10-15
First Use in Commerce Date: 1985-06-15

Basis: 1(a)


ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

Disclaimer: SHAOLIN DO

Name Portrait Consent: The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.

Translation: SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.

Design Search Code(s):
07.01.06 - Other houses
26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded


MADRID PROTOCOL INFORMATION

(NOT AVAILABLE)


PROSECUTION HISTORY

2005-09-20 - Registered - Principal Register

2005-06-28 - Published for opposition

2005-06-08 - Notice of publication

2005-03-23 - Law Office Publication Review Completed

2005-03-22 - Assigned To LIE

2005-03-17 - Approved for Pub - Principal Register (Initial exam)

2005-03-17 - Amendment From Applicant Entered

2005-03-14 - Communication received from applicant

2005-03-14 - FAX RECEIVED

2004-09-17 - Examiner's Amendment And/Or Priority Action E-Mailed

2004-09-17 - Examiners Amendment And/Or Priority Action - Completed

2004-09-15 - Case file assigned to examining attorney

2004-03-15 - New Application Entered In Tram


CORRESPONDENCE INFORMATION

Correspondent
Craig O. Correll (Attorney of record)

Craig O. Correll
CRAIG O CORRELL ATTORNEY AT LAW
(address and tel deleted)



===================================

http://www.loc.gov/cgi-bin/formprocessor/copyright/locis.pl

(Combined Search)
Search For: TITL/SHAOLIN DO
Item 1 of 1

1. Registration Number: PAu-1-493-404
Title: Shaolin do.
Description: videocassette.
Note: Cataloged from appl.
Claimant: Sin Kwang The
Created: 1980
Registered: 9Aug90
Author on © Application: Sin Kwang The.
Previous Related Version: Martial arts movements preexisting.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: selection & ordering of exercises.
Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
Special Codes: 3/D
<<<<<<

The video tape was discussed in the deposition and I tried to get a copy, which you can't because, duh, it's copyrighted. Nonetheless, for a couple of hundred bucks you can be bop down to the copyright office and watch that bad boy. I would like to see it because, if I'm remembering correctly, it shows the stuff that he made up and is, therefore, not ancient material from the temple. From the deposition, it isn't clear whether its just the short kata and sparring techs that are made up or virtually the entire lower belt curriculum.

[sean_stonehart]

What are SJK people? KC:)

Shorinji Kempo ... c'mon... everybody's abbreviating nowadays... even you!!

[brucereiter]

these books were published in 1984

"New Approach Chinese Kung Fu Training Methods a Complete Course"

The ISBN for the complete set is 962 07 1046 0.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Approach-Kung-fu-Training-Methods/dp/9620710460/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348612743&sr=1-1&keywords=9620710460

There are 3 books in the set.
the set of books contain 20 forms


it is very probable that Sin The used the following forms from these 3 books.

Book 1
has 3 forms including the Spear vs. Broadsword set.

Book 2
9 forms - Sin The has taught 5 of them.
Long Fist
Modern Hua
tai chi 24 Form
Tiger Crane
Hsing I Roads Linkage and Animals

Book 3 has 8 forms Sin The has taught 2 of them
Twin Doubles
9 Section Chain Whip.

what do you think? could sin the have taught from these 3 books what he claimed he learned from ie chang ming?

there are only 2 available on amazon and they are expensive ... i wonder what sin the and bill leonard would have to say about this question of mine?
sin the is in incredible shape and it appears he can hit very hard and has some actual martial skills. it is too bad he dug himself in so deep with lies, omissions, partial truths and plain old bull****.

[brucereiter]

"New Approach Chinese Kung Fu Training Methods a Complete Course"
ISBN for the complete set is 962 07 1046 0.

http://youtu.be/xn2bCmsOejk

was this hsing i style learned by sin the from book #2 of the above referenced books or was it learned as sin kwang the claims from the "fukien" shaolin temple by su kong tai jin then taught to ie chang ming then taught to to sin kwang the.

[RisingCrane]

these books were published in 1984

"New Approach Chinese Kung Fu Training Methods a Complete Course"

The ISBN for the complete set is 962 07 1046 0.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Approach-Kung-fu-Training-Methods/dp/9620710460/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348612743&sr=1-1&keywords=9620710460

There are 3 books in the set.
the set of books contain 20 forms


it is very probable that Sin The used the following forms from these 3 books.

Book 1
has 3 forms including the Spear vs. Broadsword set.

Book 2
9 forms - Sin The has taught 5 of them.
Long Fist
Modern Hua
tai chi 24 Form
Tiger Crane
Hsing I Roads Linkage and Animals

Book 3 has 8 forms Sin The has taught 2 of them
Twin Doubles chain whip
9 Section Chain Whip.

what do you think? could sin the have taught from these 3 books what he claimed he learned from ie chang ming?

there are only 2 available on amazon and they are expensive ... i wonder what sin the and bill leonard would have to say about this question of mine?
sin the is in incredible shape and it appears he can hit very hard and has some actual martial skills. it is too bad he dug himself in so deep with lies, omissions, partial truths and plain old bull****.

I found them much cheaper here:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=Chinese+Kung-Fu+Training+Methods%3A+New+Approach+a+Complete+Cou rse&sts=t&x=31&y=7

I used to own these books many years ago. I bought them in China in about 1990. I remember they were pretty good.

[tattooedmonk]

I found them much cheaper here:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=Chinese+Kung-Fu+Training+Methods%3A+New+Approach+a+Complete+Cou rse&sts=t&x=31&y=7

I used to own these books many years ago. I bought them in China in about 1990. I remember they were pretty good.
Cool. Thanks. I ordered them.... Now we will see if it is true or not.... This is all through 3 bb material . I will know immediately if they are the same forms. Btw ....if anyone want copies of certain forms I will be happy to make a copy for you.:D

[Syn7]

check out this karate form....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfvq89VQR54

and.................

10,000 bees? lol really?

Wow!!! That was a black belt? That was some shameful sh1t for a black belt.

or maybe he just slowed it WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY down so we can all admire his technique without the tracers. Yeah, that must be it :rolleyes:

All that would totally work. I hope women aren't taking chances down dark alleys because of some confidence from this sh1t.

Doing that for real will get you boot stomped by anyone bigger or street conditioned, let alone a real fighter. Heaven forbid one of these guys beaks off to a real fighter.

[Syn7]

there are only 2 available on amazon and they are expensive ... i wonder what sin the and bill leonard would have to say about this question of mine?
sin the is in incredible shape and it appears he can hit very hard and has some actual martial skills. it is too bad he dug himself in so deep with lies, omissions, partial truths and plain old bull****.

He should have come out from the very start by saying he wanted to make a hybrid of a few styles he "learned". That way at least it wouldn't have been a total lie. So many people want to tie themselves to the commercial potential of the fighting monk stories. People watch shaw bros movies and say "I wanna learn Shaolin" so some rat like Sin The comes along and exploits stupid white people who all wanted to believe the stories. It would have been easy to expose the lies had anyone done any independent research. It took years for it to come out because the students wanted to believe that they had found something special. They got robbed because their desire to be involved in Shaolin took precedence over their common sense and never looked beyond what they were told. And then there are the "walk ins" and they are even worse because they just took the first class that seemed cool. NO research, nothing. "Hey, I'm going to invest years or time and money and I'm not even going to bother to question my commitment!!!"
That's INSANE!!! Who does that??? If you need a new doctor do you just go with the first guy that seems nice and genuine? Especially now, in the digi age. But even before, no excuse. Tons of us didn't get burned because we did the research. I came in contact with something similar in my youth. I signed up for cheap intro type classes and asked around. Between the bad reviews and my experiences in the short time there, I was gone. I should have asked around first, but I was just a kid and actually did pay like 50 bucks. As a kid I figured this out. What kind of adult gets taken that way? Surely you realize the prince from Nigeria will not be sending you a check for your assistance, right???

“Nothing is so common-place as to wish to be remarkable.”

And knowing all this, some still defend it. Talk about a break from reality.

[bodhi warrior]

"New Approach Chinese Kung Fu Training Methods a Complete Course"
ISBN for the complete set is 962 07 1046 0.

http://youtu.be/xn2bCmsOejk

was this hsing i style learned by sin the from book #2 of the above referenced books or was it learned as sin kwang the claims from the "fukien" shaolin temple by su kong tai jin then taught to ie chang ming then taught to to sin kwang the.

I do know for certain that hsing ie was taught prior to 1984. And the way bill Leonard is doing it is different than how I was taught. Especially his stances.

[Empty_Cup]

check out this karate form....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfvq89VQR54

and.................

10,000 bees? lol really?

Not sure if you meant to post a different video or if my browser is screwed up. The link above goes to a vid of a 2005 demo. A green belt and blue belt do a quick (and sloppy) first bird form then a black belt shows potential applications to that form. No mention of 10,000 bees attacking.

[Old Noob]

check out this karate form....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfvq89VQR54

and.................

10,000 bees? lol really?

I don't know about Karate but it is one of our forms and the whole thing is bad. The form is a blue belt form but should have been performed better by both the blue and green belts. The applications piece was bad and not just because its slow but also because it didn't present good, usable techniques. To more gently paraphrase earlier posts, those "applications" could likely get your ass handed to you.

I would like to defend it and say, "well that's not the way the form should look," and it isn't but, more and more, the SD I find on the internet is horrible. Perhaps its the smaller percentage of us that take the materials seriously and these yoyos truly are more representative of the system as a whole.

[Old Noob]

do you notice how i won't let go of my Karate comments? its cause if i saw KUNG FU there, i'd say it. what i see is K-A-R-A-T-E! FLAVOR - LOOK - AND FEEL. K-A-R-A-T-E!!!!

PS.....DID YOU "NOT" RECOGNIZE the k-a-r-a-t-e bow those two guys did? if its not karate, why the karate bow? were they honoring karate by doing that?

i see a major major major connection to karate moreso than kung fu. i have more than enough time under my belt to know the difference between karate and real gung fu. this is something i cannot get myself to bend around. i can't ever watch something claim to be kung fu while i'm actually seeing karate flavor right before my eyes.

You've already shown yourself capable of being influenced by the trappings and what's worn during practice. You liked Groom's and Nance's kung fu and, while they are admittedly two of the best in the system, they are in our system.

Are you so knowlegable about all Chinese martial arts that you can assert with no doubt that that bow appears nowhere in Chinese martial arts and only in Japanese Karate? If so, you should be writing martial arts books and not forum posts.

[Drake]

check out this karate form....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfvq89VQR54

and.................

10,000 bees? lol really?

I like how the guy on the right waited until the guy in the middle finished fake fighting the guy on the left before fake attacking him again.

I played Double Dragon. No ******* waits like that, especially while fighting someone else.

[brucereiter]

I don't know about Karate but it is one of our forms and the whole thing is bad. The form is a blue belt form but should have been performed better by both the blue and green belts. The applications piece was bad and not just because its slow but also because it didn't present good, usable techniques. To more gently paraphrase earlier posts, those "applications" could likely get your ass handed to you.

I would like to defend it and say, "well that's not the way the form should look," and it isn't but, more and more, the SD I find on the internet is horrible. Perhaps its the smaller percentage of us that take the materials seriously and these yoyos truly are more representative of the system as a whole.

i would say to ignore the videos of the students. they are just doing what they were shown and having fun doing it. but pay attention to the videos of the top guys in the system. bill leonard and sin the. look at how they move. explain it. there are a few great martial artists in the system but they become great from therei own hard work not from sin the's teaching.

[brucereiter]

You've already shown yourself capable of being influenced by the trappings and what's worn during practice. You liked Groom's and Nance's kung fu and, while they are admittedly two of the best in the system, they are in our system.

Are you so knowlegable about all Chinese martial arts that you can assert with no doubt that that bow appears nowhere in Chinese martial arts and only in Japanese Karate? If so, you should be writing martial arts books and not forum posts.

grooms and nance do not do what sin the does. they have both changed from what sin the does.

forget about the bow. who cares about a bow look at what happens after the bow. it is not internal chinese martial arts happening after ...

[tattooedmonk]

I like how the guy on the right waited until the guy in the middle finished fake fighting the guy on the left before fake attacking him again.

I played Double Dragon. No ******* waits like that, especially while fighting someone else.No kidding, wow I didn't know it was a real fight!:eek::rolleyes:

[Fa Xing]

No kidding, wow I didn't know it was a real fight!:eek::rolleyes:

Further proof that it is unrealistic to train two-man forms!:D

[tattooedmonk]

i would say to ignore the videos of the students. they are just doing what they were shown and having fun doing it. but pay attention to the videos of the top guys in the system. bill leonard and sin the. look at how they move. explain it. there are a few great martial artists in the system but they become great from therei own hard work not from sin the's teaching.
Is it a possibility that they look the way they do because sin the learned it from an old man who was strung out in opium!? That what it looks like to me.

[Old Noob]

i would say to ignore the videos of the students. they are just doing what they were shown and having fun doing it. but pay attention to the videos of the top guys in the system. bill leonard and sin the. look at how they move. explain it. there are a few great martial artists in the system but they become great from therei own hard work not from sin the's teaching.

Bruce,

I agree with most of what you've said here, particularly with regard to how EML moves. But to say that the great martial artists in the sytem became great because of their own hard work and not from Sin The's teaching isn't totally fair. While The is definitely a liar (either to his students or under oath), his students, even his great ones, learned from their own hard work AND from Sin The's teaching. After all, they're still doing SD's stuff. I know that pretty much all of SD's internal comes from other places, but I'm talking about the external portion. Both Grooms and Nance, and the others who are the good MAs in the system, still practice the external sets of the system and they haven't relearned all of the stuff from other systems. They've taken what they've learned (from Sin The) and, through independent research, hard work, and natural talent, improved upon it.

[tattooedmonk]

Bruce,

I agree with most of what you've said here, particularly with regard to how EML moves. But to say that the great martial artists in the sytem became great because of their own hard work and not from Sin The's teaching isn't totally fair. While The is definitely a liar (either to his students or under oath), his students, even his great ones, learned from their own hard work AND from Sin The's teaching. After all, they're still doing SD's stuff. I know that pretty much all of SD's internal comes from other places, but I'm talking about the external portion. Both Grooms and Nance, and the others who are the good MAs in the system, still practice the external sets of the system and they haven't relearned all of the stuff from other systems. They've taken what they've learned (from Sin The) and, through independent research, hard work, and natural talent, improved upon it.Agreed. What's more is that there are thousands of people working out everyday getting healthier , making friendships and supporting the community. Which is way more important than whether its Kung fu, karate, Chinese,or Japanese . Get a clue people.

[tattooedmonk]

Thats a nice thought. but, as longs as lies are still being spread about the truth of SD.....people won't get past that.
Where have you been!? I am sure everyone is already aware of SD is and isn't .

[Fa Xing]

if you are a kung fu practitioner and leave out two man forms, then you are missing a chunk of awesome information gained from learning them. no, i won't go into what that is, but i know i will never abandon two man forms. ever. :D

I think they are important most certainly from an historical purpose if they have traditionally been in your style for sometime, which would not be a bad thing to know. Some have argued before that they are useful for learning the "flavor" of a style's fighting.

Most likely I would be picking it apart after learned it with my partner figuring what weaknesses the form has as well as strengths. However, I am a MAist who believes thinking about how martial arts works and not just believing in it because someone told me so.

[brucereiter]

Is it a possibility that they look the way they do because sin the learned it from an old man who was strung out in opium!? That what it looks like to me.

That may be possible but I do not think the evidence say that is possible. I really think that sin the did not learn chen tai chi CHUAN specially chen xin jia 83 form from ie Chang Ming whomb I have heard but have no proof was a opium addict.

[Empty_Cup]

Where have you been!? I am sure everyone is already aware of SD is and isn't .

This mega-thread and bullshido have done more than enough to reveal controversy within the SD system to any current or prospective internet-literate students. They have done more than enough to deface the credibility of the system's founder and top student(s) if not in fact then by sheer volume and vehemence. That is/was the goal of SD antagonists, wasn't it?

So what I don't understand is the reason there continues to be the same, exhaustive points made about all of this. If the goal has been reached, why not just move on? I'm sure it makes folks feel good to sit on the throne of kung fu righteousness, bestowing wisdom upon the blissfully ignorant SD masses. :rolleyes:

To be honest, I came to this thread to hopefully have some insightful and intelligent discussions with others who practice SD; even if SD is a pile of sh!t in the eyes of "true kung fu" practitioners. Instead, I have to wade through 50 posts of the same old arguments and accusations that have either already proven their point or are completely unprovable by this community.

I'm sure this post will also get buried. Ah well I guess we carry on...

[brucereiter]

Bruce,

I agree with most of what you've said here, particularly with regard to how EML moves. But to say that the great martial artists in the sytem became great because of their own hard work and not from Sin The's teaching isn't totally fair. While The is definitely a liar (either to his students or under oath), his students, even his great ones, learned from their own hard work AND from Sin The's teaching. After all, they're still doing SD's stuff. I know that pretty much all of SD's internal comes from other places, but I'm talking about the external portion. Both Grooms and Nance, and the others who are the good MAs in the system, still practice the external sets of the system and they haven't relearned all of the stuff from other systems. They've taken what they've learned (from Sin The) and, through independent research, hard work, and natural talent, improved upon it.

I have met people from all of the factions of Shaolin do and there are some very talented people and some very physically fit people. Almost everyone of them it has been a pleasure to know and train with. I have no problem with them... I am one of them.

From my own experience learning hsing I for example I had to look outside of the system. If I had not my hsing I would look more similar to what bill leonard was doing.
I can not really comment on the external stuff I never learned or practiced it.
I can comment on yang 64 as I feel I have developed at least a basic understanding of this style. I learned much more from Chang man chings book than I did from Shaolin do about it. Any of us are capable of taking a lesson from a book and through hard work improving on it. I do not have a problem with that. I have a problem with being lied to. I have learned plenty of things from books and videos. I have never told anyone I was teaching that they were passed down from a hairy monk from Shaolin temple.

I will comment again that no one that I know of has become skilled in tai chi CHUAN or hsing I as a result of training those arts with sin kwang the. They did it on their own or with outside instruction. That is my opinion based on everything I have witnessed since I started I the art in 1997. I stayed around 10 years.

Please note I do think there are many very tough fighters in Shaolin do and many people have become more healthy and learned how to defend themselves from sin the's teaching. I thnk that is a different topic...

[brucereiter]

To be honest, I came to this thread to hopefully have some insightful and intelligent discussions with others who practice SD; even if SD is a pile of sh!t in the eyes of "true kung fu" practitioners. Instead, I have to wade through 50 posts of the same old arguments and accusations that have either already proven their point or are completely unprovable by this community.

I'm sure this post will also get buried. Ah well I guess we carry on...

I would be glad to trade ideas about yang 64 and hsing I linking.

Do you have any questions or comments on the practice of those styles?

[Empty_Cup]

aside from the lies, if shaolin do is worth its weight in salt, it will stand on its own. in the end, all that really matters is whether or not SD is effective or not in a life and death situation.

in the purest of honesty, it doesn't matter what you train, its how you train. train for reality, approach all techniques from a combative perspective.

the best thing all of shaolin do can do look at the true arts SD is allegedly based off of. know how the true masters do it, then absorb the right way. the other best thing it can do to honor Sin The or whomever is to be successful. make it work. clean it up. listen to what the real kung fu people are saying and fix it up. if people from the sources are saying you are doing it wrong....get it right.

This is a great post hsk. Of course I disagree with your premise that SD is not "true" or "real" kung fu (whatever that means) but overall I agree with your point. SD, like any MA, should always keep the reality of combat in perspective. It should be an exercise in lifelong pursuit of self-development and bitter work. It should be adaptive to the practitioner to make it work.

As far as listening and improving common material based on input from those who exclusively practice those styles...I'm all digital ears. I believe there's always more to learn and don't feel SD is failing me if I get outside information on common material. The true challenge is getting out of the subjective mindset of "right" and "wrong" and getting to the heart of kung fu principles as expressed via technique. I feel there's a lot of collaboration to be had and that we get along a lot quicker when we discuss technique and principles.

[Empty_Cup]

I would be glad to trade ideas about yang 64 and hsing I linking.

Do you have any questions or comments on the practice of those styles?

I would love your input on a thread I started on Chen taijiquan http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64498

As far as yang 64, I don't really have any questions/comments right now but have been practicing this set for awhile. I'm working on following your example and getting some excerpt video of myself to put out there for critique to help develop more. I'll let you know when it's out there.

Hsing I is really interesting. I just recently started into this material and haven't learned linking yet so don't have much to say on it. However, I've been having a lot of fun practicing the 5 elements. Have you had a chance to work the Cycle of Destruction with a partner and, if so, what did you think? Also, what kind of qigong do you practice for hsing i and what's your experience been thus far?

[Old Noob]

This mega-thread and bullshido have done more than enough to reveal controversy within the SD system to any current or prospective internet-literate students. They have done more than enough to deface the credibility of the system's founder and top student(s) if not in fact then by sheer volume and vehemence. That is/was the goal of SD antagonists, wasn't it?

So what I don't understand is the reason there continues to be the same, exhaustive points made about all of this. If the goal has been reached, why not just move on? I'm sure it makes folks feel good to sit on the throne of kung fu righteousness, bestowing wisdom upon the blissfully ignorant SD masses. :rolleyes:

To be honest, I came to this thread to hopefully have some insightful and intelligent discussions with others who practice SD; even if SD is a pile of sh!t in the eyes of "true kung fu" practitioners. Instead, I have to wade through 50 posts of the same old arguments and accusations that have either already proven their point or are completely unprovable by this community.

I'm sure this post will also get buried. Ah well I guess we carry on...

This is an excellent post and you're right. For every SD criticizer, there's someone who says, "well I don't think much of the system but [insert individual practioner of SD] is a good martial artist, so it can't be all bad." Also, its clear that a student isn't always a pale immitation of a teacher and that an art can actually improve as it passes generations rather than diluting. Toward that end, I'm all for talking about SD as SD, with the understanding that it's senior folks have engaged in misleading practices. I'm afraid I can't lend much to the internal discussion as I'm a 1st black who has opted not to do internal as a seperate program. Consequently, I am just becoming acquainted with Yang 64 and Pa Kua. I do feel like I have a decent command over the hard-style material; I've taken my time getting where I am.

[tattooedmonk]

now this thread is getting on track...We need to talk about more of the positive attributes rather than the negatives or similarities rather than differences.

Some of you blowhards that want to school all the SD students and instructors about Kung fu should start really offering positive , constructive criticism and help those who are stupid or ignorant or clueless, rather than all this other horse sh!t.

How about the first movement of the 5 animal form after the salutation...as SD and DFW students know it...White Crane Flies to the edge of the Sky?

Anyone?

How about what some people call short form # 1? Damo Knocks at the Gate

[tattooedmonk]

I have met people from all of the factions of Shaolin do and there are some very talented people and some very physically fit people. Almost everyone of them it has been a pleasure to know and train with. I have no problem with them... I am one of them.

From my own experience learning hsing I for example I had to look outside of the system. If I had not my hsing I would look more similar to what bill leonard was doing.
I can not really comment on the external stuff I never learned or practiced it.
I can comment on yang 64 as I feel I have developed at least a basic understanding of this style. I learned much more from Chang man chings book than I did from Shaolin do about it. Any of us are capable of taking a lesson from a book and through hard work improving on it. I do not have a problem with that. I have a problem with being lied to. I have learned plenty of things from books and videos. I have never told anyone I was teaching that they were passed down from a hairy monk from Shaolin temple.

I will comment again that no one that I know of has become skilled in tai chi CHUAN or hsing I as a result of training those arts with sin kwang the. They did it on their own or with outside instruction. That is my opinion based on everything I have witnessed since I started I the art in 1997. I stayed around 10 years.

Please note I do think there are many very tough fighters in Shaolin do and many people have become more healthy and learned how to defend themselves from sin the's teaching. I thnk that is a different topic...I agree , its not that SD students couldn't be better at all these different arts , there are just too many of them. forms and styles are changing every day, month, and year . There is just way too much material and not enough time is spent studying and practicing the finer points and details that make a style unique , have a certain flavor or whatever....

[tattooedmonk]

what are the first strategies / tactics or actions/tools being used in the application? anyone?? someone from all sides will make this fun.

thanks:D

I have a couple I would like to share.:)

[sean_stonehart]

now this thread is getting on track...We need to talk about more of the positive attributes rather than the negatives or similarities rather than differences.

Some of you blowhards that want to school all the SD students and instructors about Kung fu should start really offering positive , constructive criticism and help those who are stupid or ignorant or clueless, rather than all this other horse sh!t.

How about the first movement of the 5 animal form after the salutation...as SD and DFW students know it...White Crane Flies to the edge of the Sky?

Anyone?

Yeah... that's not where the hoi jong ends. There's only one way to learn that... ;)

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah... that's not where the hoi jong ends. There's only one way to learn that... ;)Haha you kill me sean!

[Drake]

Is Yang 64 like a Commodore 64?

[tattooedmonk]

Is Yang 64 like a Commodore 64? the Commodores doing yang back in 1964!
:eek::D:cool:

[Judge Pen]

Wow!!! That was a black belt? That was some shameful sh1t for a black belt.

or maybe he just slowed it WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY down so we can all admire his technique without the tracers. Yeah, that must be it :rolleyes:

All that would totally work. I hope women aren't taking chances down dark alleys because of some confidence from this sh1t.

Doing that for real will get you boot stomped by anyone bigger or street conditioned, let alone a real fighter. Heaven forbid one of these guys beaks off to a real fighter.

No, they were blue and green. Still bad, but beginners.

Sorry, been away for a while.

Sean, I can't wait to compare note with you later. It's been too long.

[sean_stonehart]

Sean, I can't wait to compare note with you later. It's been too long.

Starting to plan my escape!! Fortunately for me, training has been moved to Friday PM rather than Saturday AM so I won't show up beat & stinky!!! Plus earlier too...

[Drake]

I'm just wondering how some of these SD might have turned out had they trained under a solid, non-controversial master. Like Frank said, some folks are just born for this stuff, and end up good, regardless of how they were trained.

Research opportunity lost...

[kwaichang]

Damo knocking at the Gate ? is that the name of the number 1 in 1-30 that u were taught if so do u have the names of the rest I never heard that before ? KC

[Old Noob]

I'm just wondering how some of these SD might have turned out had they trained under a solid, non-controversial master. Like Frank said, some folks are just born for this stuff, and end up good, regardless of how they were trained.

Research opportunity lost...

I don't think Nance and Grooms have failed in some way to achieve their potential as martial artists because you don't like the style they practice. They may have been good at style x or y or z, but they're good at SD too and represent the system better than some of its more senior members.

The system is a solid MA system. Even accepting that Sin The learned some material from books, etc., his structuring of the system, the curriculum development if you will, is superb. The core forms of the system (external) are clearly related and ordered in such as way as to make learning them progressively more challenging with the mastery of the subordinate forms giving you the skill elements necessary to learn the more difficult form. Further, many, Nance in particular, utilize the art effectively. The lineage is a lie and in many places, apparently, it's taught primarily as a means to earn the sifu's money and not to the higher standard that some of us would like to see maintained.

[Old Noob]

This isn't an SD-specific question but could be asked of anyone who attends a school that is open to the public.

My sifu runs his school as his business; that is to say he doesn't work otherwise. I think this is part of the reason that he is such an excellent martial artist himself. He trains constantly. At the school, most of the students are of a high caliber and hold themselves to pretty high standards but there are some that do not. Yet those who don't hold themselves to the higher standard (in my own opinion BTW) are still promoted.

For a while this bothered me. I didn't like it that someone who didn't meet my standard had the same credential that I did. I felt in some way that if another SD black belt sucked, it somehow devalued mine. That feeling may or may not be fueled by the BS conversations we have on here and the excuses we're constantly making for the bad versions of the material that seem to find their way on to the interwebs.

So I pressed my sifu on this issue gently. I asked him whether running his school as his source of income required him to compromise on his standards. His answer was helpful to me. He said that he was at peace with the standard he set. He promotes in his school when people can execute the required material and he thinks they are ready from an emotional and maturity standpoint. He said that when somebody meets that standard, they're "qualified," and they therefore deserve what they receive. The fact that I surpassed the standard doesn't effect the fact that those who aren't performing to my standard nonetheless meet the more objective standard that he has set for the school.

My sifu's answer got me to thinking and I'd be curious to get Drake's thoughts on this. I've been in the Army for a long time and have served under two types of leaders (well more than that but two types for this conversation). The first rewards his soldiers unendingly. If they meet the minimum qualification for a medal or award, they get it. The second is more stingy; they give awards very sparingly and often downgrade awards to awards that are normally given for less significant accomplishments. My experience has been that the Stingy approach creates two problems. First, morale has always been lower in units where the commander takes that approach; that approach manifests itself in other actions the commander takes as well. Second, soldiers coming from that unit don't look as good on paper as soldiers coming from units where the commanders reward accomplishment more freely. Thus a commander may think a soldier's awards look out of whack with his service record and may have an impression that the soldier is a ****bag before the soldier ever gets there.

When I started to apply my military experience to the qwoon and to consider my Sifu's answer, it made more sense to me. A minimum standard is a minimum standard. In an ideal world, that minimal standard would be very high but the truth is that the majority of people can't achieve standards set at the highest level. Then the question becomes who are you going to have in your system? In the Army analogy, are you going to have a 20,000 person Army of the fittest soldiers on earth or are you going to have a half a million people who can meet minimum standards and select the best from them to put into elite subdivisions? In the qwoon analogy, are you going to run a qwoon where you take only the five students who can do everything you teach perfectly and will represent you in only the best way possible, or are you going to have a thriving business so that you can train your best the way you want while running a school that produces reasonably good martial artists in its rank and file.

What are your thoughts?

[Empty_Cup]

This isn't an SD-specific question but could be asked of anyone who attends a school that is open to the public.

My sifu runs his school as his business; that is to say he doesn't work otherwise. I think this is part of the reason that he is such an excellent martial artist himself. He trains constantly. At the school, most of the students are of a high caliber and hold themselves to pretty high standards but there are some that do not. Yet those who don't hold themselves to the higher standard (in my own opinion BTW) are still promoted.

For a while this bothered me. I didn't like it that someone who didn't meet my standard had the same credential that I did. I felt in some way that if another SD black belt sucked, it somehow devalued mine. That feeling may or may not be fueled by the BS conversations we have on here and the excuses we're constantly making for the bad versions of the material that seem to find their way on to the interwebs.

So I pressed my sifu on this issue gently. I asked him whether running his school as his source of income required him to compromise on his standards. His answer was helpful to me. He said that he was at peace with the standard he set. He promotes in his school when people can execute the required material and he thinks they are ready from an emotional and maturity standpoint. He said that when somebody meets that standard, they're "qualified," and they therefore deserve what they receive. The fact that I surpassed the standard doesn't effect the fact that those who aren't performing to my standard nonetheless meet the more objective standard that he has set for the school.

My sifu's answer got me to thinking and I'd be curious to get Drake's thoughts on this. I've been in the Army for a long time and have served under two types of leaders (well more than that but two types for this conversation). The first rewards his soldiers unendingly. If they meet the minimum qualification for a medal or award, they get it. The second is more stingy; they give awards very sparingly and often downgrade awards to awards that are normally given for less significant accomplishments. My experience has been that the Stingy approach creates two problems. First, morale has always been lower in units where the commander takes that approach; that approach manifests itself in other actions the commander takes as well. Second, soldiers coming from that unit don't look as good on paper as soldiers coming from units where the commanders reward accomplishment more freely. Thus a commander may think a soldier's awards look out of whack with his service record and may have an impression that the soldier is a ****bag before the soldier ever gets there.

When I started to apply my military experience to the qwoon and to consider my Sifu's answer, it made more sense to me. A minimum standard is a minimum standard. In an ideal world, that minimal standard would be very high but the truth is that the majority of people can't achieve standards set at the highest level. Then the question becomes who are you going to have in your system? In the Army analogy, are you going to have a 20,000 person Army of the fittest soldiers on earth or are you going to have a half a million people who can meet minimum standards and select the best from them to put into elite subdivisions? In the qwoon analogy, are you going to run a qwoon where you take only the five students who can do everything you teach perfectly and will represent you in only the best way possible, or are you going to have a thriving business so that you can train your best the way you want while running a school that produces reasonably good martial artists in its rank and file.

What are your thoughts?

You've just described what I've heard called "martial arts hell" where you depend on income from students in order to keep the school open. When this happens, if you don't set a minimum standard, you're subject to whatever satisfies the consumer. This radically changes the student/teacher dynamic.

When I was growing up there were two schools in my area and I trained at both of them. The first one was Penjat Silat Bukti Negara and the guru taught as a passion, not as a source of living. He was a great fighter, and in general the students in that school were also of a high caliber. He also put on summer camps and just generally enjoyed the teaching. He could afford to be more stingy in promotions.

The second school was a Tae Kwon Do school and was run as a business. The head instructor was also a solid guy but ended up having to spend a lot of time behind a desk vs. out on the floor. The students were generally of a high caliber as well but there were more examples of quick rank advancements and compromises. I remember specifically that there was a requirement to wait at least 6 months to go from red belt to brown belt. The next thing you knew, students were making this jump at less than 3 months. They knew the structure of the form at least.

[Old Noob]

You've just described what I've heard called "martial arts hell" where you depend on income from students in order to keep the school open. When this happens, if you don't set a minimum standard, you're subject to whatever satisfies the consumer. This radically changes the student/teacher dynamic.

When I was growing up there were two schools in my area and I trained at both of them. The first one was Penjat Silat Bukti Negara and the guru taught as a passion, not as a source of living. He was a great fighter, and in general the students in that school were also of a high caliber. He also put on summer camps and just generally enjoyed the teaching. He could afford to be more stingy in promotions.

The second school was a Tae Kwon Do school and was run as a business. The head instructor was also a solid guy but ended up having to spend a lot of time behind a desk vs. out on the floor. The students were generally of a high caliber as well but there were more examples of quick rank advancements and compromises. I remember specifically that there was a requirement to wait at least 6 months to go from red belt to brown belt. The next thing you knew, students were making this jump at less than 3 months. They knew the structure of the form at least.

So what's your opinion on that. Given that my sifu is a great teacher and that I, and many others at my school get an awesome martial eduction, and that he wouldn't be able to keep his school open if he taught only to the best students, are you okay training in a school where some of its members might not be pracitioners that would make you proud as long as you're getting what you're paying for?

[Empty_Cup]

So what's your opinion on that. Given that my sifu is a great teacher and that I, and many others at my school get an awesome martial eduction, and that he wouldn't be able to keep his school open if he taught only to the best students, are you okay training in a school where some of its members might not be pracitioners that would make you proud as long as you're getting what you're paying for?

I like the idea of setting a minimum standard for promotion. IMO this minimum standard should be much more than "can remember the form sequence." How much more is up to the instructor. If the min standard is set, it shouldn't really matter if the school is for income or not. There might certainly be a short-term tradeoff in $$ when you don't bring in as many belt fees but the long-term gain is worth it.

In general I think a lot of students are underestimated. There are certainly folks out there who say, "If I'm not a black belt by next year then I'll quit!" but in general I feel most people want to put in the time, effort, and work to be great. They want to feel that satisfaction of doing something well and knowing the hard work it took to get there. Self-motivation is the most powerful factor on the planet. Once the minimum standard has been set, it's up to the student to decide how much higher they want to shoot for.

[tattooedmonk]

Damo knocking at the Gate ? is that the name of the number 1 in 1-30 that u were taught if so do u have the names of the rest I never heard that before ? KCPM me...:)

[kwaichang]

Yeah sure perfect for what , no strength there. Good flexibility though. Now about the rank and good and bad students , the progress should be graded against oneself not in relation to others. Water will seek its own level place. People will progress as they can . KC Everything else is pure ego.

[MasterKiller]

This mega-thread and bullshido have done more than enough to reveal controversy within the SD system to any current or prospective internet-literate students. They have done more than enough to deface the credibility of the system's founder and top student(s) if not in fact then by sheer volume and vehemence. That is/was the goal of SD antagonists, wasn't it?

So what I don't understand is the reason there continues to be the same, exhaustive points made about all of this. If the goal has been reached, why not just move on? I'm sure it makes folks feel good to sit on the throne of kung fu righteousness, bestowing wisdom upon the blissfully ignorant SD masses. :rolleyes:

To be honest, I came to this thread to hopefully have some insightful and intelligent discussions with others who practice SD; even if SD is a pile of sh!t in the eyes of "true kung fu" practitioners. Instead, I have to wade through 50 posts of the same old arguments and accusations that have either already proven their point or are completely unprovable by this community.

I'm sure this post will also get buried. Ah well I guess we carry on...

Awww. Cry a river sometime.

For about 10 years before you showed up, SD people were vehement that everything Sin The' said was absolute truth and acted high and mighty about it. Even some of the more, shall we say...humbled... people in this thread were at one time foaming at the mouth about SD's authenticity.

So shut the f@ck up and take your come uppence.

[Old Noob]

Awww. Cry a river sometime.

For about 10 years before you showed up, SD people were vehement that everything Sin The' said was absolute truth and acted high and mighty about it. Even some of the more, shall we say...humbled... people in this thread were at one time foaming at the mouth about SD's authenticity.

So shut the f@ck up and take your come uppence.

How the hell do you impute the claims of all SD people for the last ten years to this guy. Get a grip dude. You're abrasive and a non-contributer, which is too bad because you seem to have a brain when you're not acting like a douchebag.

I said on another board that you have to like trolls to like this board. Heck some of the biggest trolls here are mods.

[tattooedmonk]

Awww. Cry a river sometime.

For about 10 years before you showed up, SD people were vehement that everything Sin The' said was absolute truth and acted high and mighty about it. Even some of the more, shall we say...humbled... people in this thread were at one time foaming at the mouth about SD's authenticity.

So shut the f@ck up and take your come uppence. Wow! you are a total D..... bag!

[Lucas]

I'm curious about how Masterkiller feels about this thread.

[Syn7]

Not sure if you meant to post a different video or if my browser is screwed up. The link above goes to a vid of a 2005 demo. A green belt and blue belt do a quick (and sloppy) first bird form then a black belt shows potential applications to that form. No mention of 10,000 bees attacking.

His belt may have been black, but that was no black belt from anything resembling an effective or credible system. If you give BB's away to people of that level, you are a joke. Period.

I'm sorry, it's harsh, but why dance around it.

The guy was shameful. And if he isn't typical, show me somebody who is. And give me a valid reason why somebody gave this guy a BB based on his skills???
And if it was a rogue cash grabbing sifu, why did the other teachers not band together and eliminate this shameful example??? Surely they see it and realize their own students would see this. If I was a teacher there, I would be embarrassed and ashamed. If I really did believe in the style I would defend it by reigning in this type of thing.

BB's are to be earned, not bought.

[Syn7]

Agreed. What's more is that there are thousands of people working out everyday getting healthier , making friendships and supporting the community. Which is way more important than whether its Kung fu, karate, Chinese,or Japanese . Get a clue people.

Why not put your time and money into a style that isn't highly suspect in every way shape and form? Tai-Bo can help you get fit and even teach you some very rudimentary technique, but even tho it could help in a fight against a half assed opponent it's still not self defense. It doesn't matter how good you get at some forms, they will only take you so far in self defense. Even if you spend 30 years doing one form perfect, you're still bound by the limited potential of the form itself. No matter how good you get at it.

You can look real good, but it doesn't mean you have as much of an advantage as advertised in a real combat scenario. I cringe at the thought of people taking chances based on confidence in martial ability from a strip mall style. It's fukcing criminal. If you could punch people out in court, it would be so easy to prove. Unfortunately it won't happen until some cat gets hurt, bad, and somebody makes the connection. They would have a legitimate case.

[Syn7]

Further proof that it is unrealistic to train two-man forms!:D

Now now, you don't mean that... :p

Two man forms are very important and can be quite realistic. Even at full speed with real intent.

[Syn7]

****, idk. LOL. I've been putting most of my focus these days on losing weight, getting back to my own gung fu practice, and still working on my book. i could have been under a rock........somewhere. :D

what i care about most however about SD, is the fact that they are still practicing our 5 animal form. they need to know about its true history. and thats it.

i have no other real interest in SD other than that.

Awesome. When do you think the book will be done?



I don't have any issue with SD specifically. I just think that styles that are taught and marketed as effective and actually don't work are wrong. Just wrong. Buyer beware, I know I know. If it was a sh1tty product like a radio that breaks after a week, I wouldn't care. That's on the consumer. The problem here is that it actually puts people in danger. A false sense of confidence can be deadly bad. In some cases, you are better off not training at all. Your instincts and will to live are more effective than what I've seen in this thread.

[Empty_Cup]

...
I don't have any issue with SD specifically. I just think that styles that are taught and marketed as effective and actually don't work are wrong. Just wrong. Buyer beware, I know I know. If it was a sh1tty product like a radio that breaks after a week, I wouldn't care. That's on the consumer. The problem here is that it actually puts people in danger. A false sense of confidence can be deadly bad. In some cases, you are better off not training at all. Your instincts and will to live are more effective than what I've seen in this thread.

The general consensus on this thread has not been that SD doesn't work. In fact, there are a lot of folks who admit SD has good fighters and others who have used their techniques in real-life self defense situations.

And that's where the circular arguments come in. People say a system is no good if it breeds sh!tty fighters. Then they admit SD has decent fighters but that it's due to some innate ability, not the system. Repeat ad nauseum.

[Empty_Cup]

Awww. Cry a river sometime.

For about 10 years before you showed up, SD people were vehement that everything Sin The' said was absolute truth and acted high and mighty about it. Even some of the more, shall we say...humbled... people in this thread were at one time foaming at the mouth about SD's authenticity.

So shut the f@ck up and take your come uppence.

Thanks MK, you're such a great mod with all your insight and thought-provoking posts :rolleyes: I was wondering when I'd get a "stfu n00b" from you...too bad I didn't get that pretty picture you're so fond of.

My point was obviously lost on you. My point was pretty much "ok, come-uppence taken (whatever that's supposed to mean)! Now for those interested in SD let's actually discuss the style's principle and technique which is why most of the SD people came to this thread in the first place."

[bodhi warrior]

Someone asked about a reference to Ie Chang Ming being an opium addict.
From Karate, techniques of self defense, "The deaths of the eleven soldiers haunted his dreams, and he became a drunkard and opium addict for the next 20 years. Finally he met an old colleague from china who helped him straighten himself out, and he began teaching the martial arts in Bandung." by sin the'

[Syn7]

The general consensus on this thread has not been that SD doesn't work. In fact, there are a lot of folks who admit SD has good fighters and others who have used their techniques in real-life self defense situations.

And that's where the circular arguments come in. People say a system is no good if it breeds sh!tty fighters. Then they admit SD has decent fighters but that it's due to some innate ability, not the system. Repeat ad nauseum.

Would it be too much to ask for evidence? Surely if there are actually good SD fighters there is evidence of this? yeah? Throw em up. Forms demo is cool, a semi/full contact competition would be better, but I'm not expecting that. Anyone ever enter a TKD or Kyokushin tourney or anything? Maybe a boxing match? Kick boxing? anything? But a great forms demo would help, for sure.

[Syn7]

im in the process of cleaning it up

which means? anytime between now and whenever? lol


youve been at it for like 5 years, no? i'll order one online when ur done. i don't mind going thru u specifically so you dont have to hand amazon a cut, i trust ya. I'll money order yo as$!!!

[Syn7]

I'm mostly interested in the academics. History, lineage etc. I can learn CLF in Vancouver. There's a decent Hung Sing school here. But the history interests me.]

If you wanna be a good writer my only advice is this: READ/ Read, read, then read some more. Soak it in. Don't just read the words, look at how they are strung together. It will help. Dry writers only sell to academics.

[Judge Pen]

Would it be too much to ask for evidence? Surely if there are actually good SD fighters there is evidence of this? yeah? Throw em up. Forms demo is cool, a semi/full contact competition would be better, but I'm not expecting that. Anyone ever enter a TKD or Kyokushin tourney or anything? Maybe a boxing match? Kick boxing? anything? But a great forms demo would help, for sure.

Yes, I entered a couple of reginal open-style tournaments, one sponsored by Oso in 2006, and placed third in advanced sparring. Many good fighters there, mainly one trained by yu shan in Nashville, that was a beast. This has been discussed at this forum before. I'm not a natural athlete. I don't mind contact as long as I can give it back, but I'm sure that SD, for whatever it is, made my a better fighter and would serve me better than "just my natural instincts."

[Judge Pen]

JP has some skill. He's a good guy. I've sparred him and watched him spar his ass off in a moderate contact tournament, fighting 6 or 7 fights (max 3, 2 min rounds as usual) but in something like just a 2 hour span of time. Irrelevent of the source, he's no slouch.

See this quote. As I said earlier, there was a complete thread about the SACMAT tournament in 2006 that discusses my participation.

[Judge Pen]

Here are a couple of more quotes from that thread:




I posted about Judge Pen on the "Shaolin Do thread", but will expand here. I knew JP would be at the tournament, and looked forward to seeing him again. JP is a focused practitioner. I officiated forms and fighting at this tourney. I had the pleasure to "judge" Judge Pen. His empty hand form was long and difficult, I thought he did well. His Kwando form was pretty darn nice, I scored him high. JP really impressed me with his fighting. This man is a stud in the ring, he has combat skills. My folks spoke of him over beers that night!


I want to expand on Yu Shan's student, Frank. The man is a warrior. I fought him twice. The first time I felt very fortunate to get out with a victory. I knew I had been in a scrape after squaring off with him. When I met him again . . . . well he owned me the second time. His endurance and conditioning is amazing and he was the most deceptively fast fighter I faced that night. He is a class act and I can't wait to cross hands with him again. He has my utmost respect.

I attribute several of my scrapes, bruises and all around soreness to my two matches with him. No disrepect to the guy that won, but if I were judging the matches, I would have had him winning 1st.


I had friends and family at the event and from what they told me there was a lot of audience appreciation for JP's fighting skill and endurance. Really impressive!




Big Props to Judge Pen for fighting A LOT. I saw one of the best hand combinations I've ever seen in a sparring match...and it landed. Also, he landed a round house kick from a seemingly impossible position. But, beyond anything else he demonstrated a high level of endurance and a willingness to fight. A credit to Shoalin Do.

Also, his fiance' IS hot. ;) so, he's not BS'ing us there.

[Judge Pen]

The videos are no longer up, but here is an entire thread discussing my sparring and tearing apart everything that I could have done better.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42125&highlight=JP

Say what you want, but I have no problem putting myself out there for public critique.

[sean_stonehart]

What's even more so at that time was his ability to drink & cross'em up!

A bottle of 100 proof SoCo... I end up with a black eye :eek:, he gets kicked across his living room :cool: & he still out drank me that night :D !!! Man is a true beastie!!!

[Drake]

The general consensus on this thread has not been that SD doesn't work. In fact, there are a lot of folks who admit SD has good fighters and others who have used their techniques in real-life self defense situations.

And that's where the circular arguments come in. People say a system is no good if it breeds sh!tty fighters. Then they admit SD has decent fighters but that it's due to some innate ability, not the system. Repeat ad nauseum.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying at any given McDojo in the world, they always have that one dude who can just open a can of whoopazz on anyone, regardless of style.

[Judge Pen]

What's even more so at that time was his ability to drink & cross'em up!

A bottle of 100 proof SoCo... I end up with a black eye :eek:, he gets kicked across his living room :cool: & he still out drank me that night :D !!! Man is a true beastie!!!

Good times. I don't train my drunken style as much as I used to either. You might be able to take me with the SoCo now.

[Empty_Cup]

The videos are no longer up, but here is an entire thread discussing my sparring and tearing apart everything that I could have done better.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42125&highlight=JP

Say what you want, but I have no problem putting myself out there for public critique.

Do you think you could repost the videos? I'd be interested to see those matches...

[Empty_Cup]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying at any given McDojo in the world, they always have that one dude who can just open a can of whoopazz on anyone, regardless of style.

I was responding to Syn7 but I get your point.

For a system as large as SD, we do owe a lot more examples of guys who have won in open competition. There is good sparring I've seen at the SD tournaments but that doesn't get much credibility since it's not open style. I agree that there should be more SD folks mixing it up outside the style.

Also, at least here in Ohio, there's never been any resistance from instructors to participating in tournaments, open or otherwise.

[Old Noob]

Would it be too much to ask for evidence? Surely if there are actually good SD fighters there is evidence of this? yeah? Throw em up. Forms demo is cool, a semi/full contact competition would be better, but I'm not expecting that. Anyone ever enter a TKD or Kyokushin tourney or anything? Maybe a boxing match? Kick boxing? anything? But a great forms demo would help, for sure.

There's a link somwhere on this thread of an SD dude competing in an amateur MMA event and winning.

[Old Noob]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying at any given McDojo in the world, they always have that one dude who can just open a can of whoopazz on anyone, regardless of style.

If I'm understanding JP correctly, he's not claiming to be that person.

A couple of folks from my qwoon participated in the Wong People tournament in Washington DC three years ago. One took 2nd in open sparring. I wasn't at the tournament and can't speak to the skill of the fighters there or the level of contact.

It would be good for us to engage in more open contacts. I think its another bad sign that some SD schools discourage this.

[Judge Pen]

Do you think you could repost the videos? I'd be interested to see those matches...

I'll see if I can. I have them burned to a disc somewhere.

[bodhi warrior]

The videos are no longer up, but here is an entire thread discussing my sparring and tearing apart everything that I could have done better.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42125&highlight=JP

Say what you want, but I have no problem putting myself out there for public critique.

What was the form you did?

[Judge Pen]

What was the form you did?

FIVE ANIMAL FORM :eek::D

[MasterKiller]

a non-contributer. Non-contributor?

I posted THE ONLY PHOTOGRAPHS of Ie Ching Ming any of you crybabies have ever seen.

[Vajramusti]

974 pages! Of what?

The aholin do folks should have their own chat site somewhere else-??

[Judge Pen]

Non-contributor?

I posted THE ONLY PHOTOGRAPHS of Ie Ching Ming any of you crybabies have ever seen.

Those were neat photos, but did we ever verify them?

"Crybabies?" Been sleeping on the couch again? :D

[Judge Pen]

974 pages! Of what?

The aholin do folks should have their own chat site somewhere else-??

No, the people here are much more respectful than Bullshido.

[Judge Pen]

Anyone know the story behind these peeps: http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/mindbodyspirit/History.html

"Grandmaster Lawrence Day" and the Silent Dragon kung fu group. When did they split? Who was their teachers? Why do they wear socks to train?

[Orion Paximus]

Lawrence Day split back in the 70s when Sin let his brother open a school just down the road from his. But according to everyone except the Soards, they're still on good terms. those other guys aren't SD guys. They each have done different styles of KF. Some traditional, some esoteric.

FYI Silent Dragon is now defunct.

[Empty_Cup]

I would love your input on a thread I started on Chen taijiquan http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64498

As far as yang 64, I don't really have any questions/comments right now but have been practicing this set for awhile. I'm working on following your example and getting some excerpt video of myself to put out there for critique to help develop more. I'll let you know when it's out there.

Hsing I is really interesting. I just recently started into this material and haven't learned linking yet so don't have much to say on it. However, I've been having a lot of fun practicing the 5 elements. Have you had a chance to work the Cycle of Destruction with a partner and, if so, what did you think? Also, what kind of qigong do you practice for hsing i and what's your experience been thus far?

bump

@brucereiter

[Judge Pen]

oops! :D:D:D

Thought you might like that, Frank. :) That tournament was were the photos of me doing the form were taken.

[brucereiter]

bump

Hsing I is really interesting. I just recently started into this material and haven't learned linking yet so don't have much to say on it.





However, I've been having a lot of fun practicing the 5 elements. Also, what kind of qigong do you practice for hsing i and what's your experience been thus far?

@brucereiter

pi chuan (splitting) metal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCz1SSlyc6A

beng chuan (pounding) wood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZbMEBxWOr0

regarding breathing practice i hold santi and check my physical alignments try to distribute my weight/mass so i can deliver the max mass at the max speed.
my experience with hsing i has been positive. it has helped me learn about being more mobile (in general hsing i plows through, bagua goes around and tai chi gets out of the way all hit fast and hard) hsing i has helped my other martial arts a lot.

can you post a video of your practice?




Have you had a chance to work the Cycle of Destruction with a partner and, if so, what did you think?

yes. mike reid taught us this practice. i think it is an essential thing to help understand how to apply hsing i. i have not spent to much time with it but i do think it has value in showing how the "elements" affect on another by creating or destroying opportunity.

[Judge Pen]

Bruce,

I have observed others practicing Hsing-Ie that do their Pi Chuan very differently than we do. The essential movement is the same, and the first rising fist is performed slowly, but the second fist and the chopping element is done explosively. To accomplish this there is not the rising while bringing the feet together like we practice. Their fist also corresponded with a finger pressing along a pressure point (each element corresponding to a different meridian). Have you come across this variation (for lack of a different word)?

[Orion Paximus]

My Xing-Yi teacher was Edward Coughlin. Each attack in Pi quan was explosive and fast. This was true for each of the five element attacks.

This is pretty much the essence of what was taught to me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=iQZ3xn-UmjI

[brucereiter]

Bruce,

I have observed others practicing Hsing-Ie that do their Pi Chuan very differently than we do. The essential movement is the same, and the first rising fist is performed slowly, but the second fist and the chopping element is done explosively. To accomplish this there is not the rising while bringing the feet together like we practice. Their fist also corresponded with a finger pressing along a pressure point (each element corresponding to a different meridian). Have you come across this variation (for lack of a different word)?

i have scene others do it in a similar fashion (similar to the general choreography) to what i think you are describing.
i have learned at least 20 different variations of pi chuan. the foot work of "shaolin do" pi chuan is very different but i dont think it is bad in principle as long as the "6 harmonies" are observed and as long as everything starts and stops at the same time.

the first version in the clip is basically what i learned and the second one was taught to me outside of the shaolin do system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCz1SSlyc6A&feature=share&list=UU_bOaCAreE6ZH-Kl1AF49vw

if you look at the santi at the beginning of this one you will see how i was shown in from gg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwBQnWd-GJI

[brucereiter]

My Xing-Yi teacher was Edward Coughlin. Each attack in Pi quan was explosive and fast. This was true for each of the five element attacks.

This is pretty much the essence of what was taught to me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=iQZ3xn-UmjI

yang hai is a excellent representation of hsing i chuan. i have learned a lot from watching his videos...

[Syn7]

it doesn't realy matter anymore, does it?

ah, I can practically TASTE 1,000...

25 to go playbwoy!!!! Who bringing the pita chips?

[Syn7]

Still waiting for videos. I am not going to dig thru 1000 pages. Throw em up under a quote so I know it's for me. That goes for any of yas!

[Lucas]

just to **** with you all i'm going to stay up really late one night and make this thread hit the 1k and celebrate all by myself and take all the credit.

[Judge Pen]

i have scene others do it in a similar fashion (similar to the general choreography) to what i think you are describing.
i have learned at least 20 different variations of pi chuan. the foot work of "shaolin do" pi chuan is very different but i dont think it is bad in principle as long as the "6 harmonies" are observed and as long as everything starts and stops at the same time.

the first version in the clip is basically what i learned and the second one was taught to me outside of the shaolin do system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCz1SSlyc6A&feature=share&list=UU_bOaCAreE6ZH-Kl1AF49vw

if you look at the santi at the beginning of this one you will see how i was shown in from gg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwBQnWd-GJI

Yes, you were taught almost identically to the way I was taught. Interestingly, to Orion's point, I have seen versions that were slow in form and versions that were slow and then explosive and versions that were all explosive. It makes me wonder if they are just different ways to train the same technique and principals.

[bodhi warrior]

i have scene others do it in a similar fashion (similar to the general choreography) to what i think you are describing.
i have learned at least 20 different variations of pi chuan. the foot work of "shaolin do" pi chuan is very different but i dont think it is bad in principle as long as the "6 harmonies" are observed and as long as everything starts and stops at the same time.

the first version in the clip is basically what i learned and the second one was taught to me outside of the shaolin do system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCz1SSlyc6A&feature=share&list=UU_bOaCAreE6ZH-Kl1AF49vw

if you look at the santi at the beginning of this one you will see how i was shown in from gg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwBQnWd-GJI

I always wondered why our pi chuan looked so different also. I thought maybe we're doing it wrong. But then I saw this video of su dong chen doing pi chuan. The way he executes the application is pretty close to how we practice it in form.

http://youtu.be/-MF7u0RhPlg

[Judge Pen]

I've never had any problems with the martial applications of our Hsing-Ie.

[brucereiter]

Yes, you were taught almost identically to the way I was taught. Interestingly, to Orion's point, I have seen versions that were slow in form and versions that were slow and then explosive and versions that were all explosive. It makes me wonder if they are just different ways to train the same technique and principals.

yes i think there are several valid ways one should train pi chuan techniques and principals.

[brucereiter]

I always wondered why our pi chuan looked so different also. I thought maybe we're doing it wrong. But then I saw this video of su dong chen doing pi chuan. The way he executes the application is pretty close to how we practice it in form.

http://youtu.be/-MF7u0RhPlg

su dong chen is one of my favorite hsing i guys.
su dong chen is a great example to follow for hsing i.

can/will you show a video clip of how you practice pi chuan?


when you say "we" who do you mean?
su dong chen and bill leonard/sin the do not do anything even similar regarding hsing i chuan.

here is what bill leonard teaches as pi churn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOM-xf_QMeQ

[bodhi warrior]

su dong chen is one of my favorite hsing i guys.
su dong chen is a great example to follow for hsing i.

can/will you show a video clip of how you practice pi chuan?


when you say "we" who do you mean?
su dong chen and bill leonard/sin the do not do anything even similar regarding hsing i chuan.

here is what bill leonard teaches as pi churn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOM-xf_QMeQ

I would but I don't have a camera. The ex got it in the divorce. But Leonard does it very similar to how I was taught.
The similarities I noticed in the su dong Chen video is the actual rising and chopping of the hands.

[One student]

You've just described what I've heard called "martial arts hell" where you depend on income from students in order to keep the school open. When this happens, if you don't set a minimum standard, you're subject to whatever satisfies the consumer. This radically changes the student/teacher dynamic.

When I was growing up there were two schools in my area and I trained at both of them. The first one was Penjat Silat Bukti Negara and the guru taught as a passion, not as a source of living. He was a great fighter, and in general the students in that school were also of a high caliber. He also put on summer camps and just generally enjoyed the teaching. He could afford to be more stingy in promotions.

The second school was a Tae Kwon Do school and was run as a business. The head instructor was also a solid guy but ended up having to spend a lot of time behind a desk vs. out on the floor. The students were generally of a high caliber as well but there were more examples of quick rank advancements and compromises. I remember specifically that there was a requirement to wait at least 6 months to go from red belt to brown belt. The next thing you knew, students were making this jump at less than 3 months. They knew the structure of the form at least.

Not that what I have to say would make any difference, but I was out of practice for several years, came back, noticed a lot of people wearing black and higher, that I first was a little critical of, appeared to me to have no business wearing that rank, judging by observing them (weight, fitness, skills, etc.). And also, people in the classes that were well unprepared for it -- the material likely way over their head.

But, when I first tested for advanced rank, I knew that although I passed, the standards were probably nothing like those that had to be met by those that passed in years past for the same rank. And those were probably lesser than those who came before them.

I came to several conclusions: 1) I am in it for what it helps me do, not for the recognition of rank, or for honor or pride; poor standards that others have do not change mine; 2) rank advancement is only a way of testing yourself, making you prepare for that level to see if you can meet that standard for that material, or better; it should not be for how others look at you but how you look at yourself; 3) the teacher's school is the teacher's school, it is not for me to tell them how to run it; 4) although overly philosophical, teaching is kind of like planting seeds: some will fall on barren soil, some will fall on more fertile soil and grow and produce. Because some of the seed might not produce as well as others is no reason not to plant them.

So you do what you do to make yourself better, and that requires putting the ego aside. You can't gain new knowledge, until you "empty the cup" of what you already have, it just gets in the way.

[One student]

So what's your opinion on that. Given that my sifu is a great teacher and that I, and many others at my school get an awesome martial eduction, and that he wouldn't be able to keep his school open if he taught only to the best students, are you okay training in a school where some of its members might not be pracitioners that would make you proud as long as you're getting what you're paying for?

Of course its true, you hear of people making black belt/sash under so and so, you know that means something, they had to be skilled to get there, that school doesn't promote without a high degree of skills. What do you think of if you hear someone got black belt at a Gracie BJJ school? And have you ever seen anyone who came up in the generation of EML, ES, BG, that are not highly skilled? You didn't get what they got back then by cruising. I don't think its a big secret though that SD is generally (although there are individual school exceptions) not currently one of those. People do regularly get promoted merely for being able to get through the material. Even 20 years ago, an advanced black degree was nothing like it was when those elder students got the same rank, much less now. It is what it is. If the recognition of others outside of SD (who know what's going on) for the rank you have is what you want, many SD schools would not be the best choice.

[One student]

Would it be too much to ask for evidence? Surely if there are actually good SD fighters there is evidence of this? yeah? Throw em up. Forms demo is cool, a semi/full contact competition would be better, but I'm not expecting that. Anyone ever enter a TKD or Kyokushin tourney or anything? Maybe a boxing match? Kick boxing? anything? But a great forms demo would help, for sure.

I've heard the stories of EML, BG, TN, others, "back in the day," going to any tournament they could find to fight, nearly every weekend as I understood it. I've seen pictures of EML's sparring trophies -- before (as I heard) he got rid of them because they were taking up space. I heard (others going back ****her can correct me) he was unbeaten for a long long time. And I understand in those days the contact rules and protective gear were not what that are now. I heard the story about SMBG breaking someone's leg in a tournament with a front sweep; and knocking someone out (in full head gear) with a round kick. I heard he had to borrow another kung fu guy's sword for a forms tournament, and broke the sword with the force of his techniques. I've seen pictures of him throwing someone off his feet and through the air with the power of his fa jing -- and I heard about it personally from the victim. These guys though just don't publicize what they accomplished. For what that's worth.

[Syn7]

Show me.

We all got stories.

I don't want to see what you guys are doing specifically. I want the best examples. Name any legit style and you can atleast find killer forms demos on youtube or whatever. I'd rather see actual resistance from someone with intent, but I realize this is asking alot considering all I'm seeing is beginner and mid levels saying "Here's what I learned, I'm not the best example tho". I'm not here to critique individual performances. I wanna see the impact of SD effectiveness on the martial world. Show and prove.

If you ask HSK to show you the effectiveness of Hung Sing, he will show you clips of full contact competition at the minimum. I'm just asking for the same thing from SD. I don't care if you know the people in the clips or not, as long as you know they are SD. All SD that is. If a guy knows 4 arts and SD is one of them then he goes and wins an mma match with his college wrestling skills, well, that is hardly showing SD effectiveness.

[tattooedmonk]

Well , this has taken a turn for the worst.

I can tell you this , at least all the SD/CSC have learned how to show honor, respect etc.for other practitioners of the martial arts , you know wu de!?

Most of you must have missed those lessons or weren't taught it. :rolleyes::cool:

Also , I don't do the video thing , but you are more than welcome to come and train with me and I will show you what I know.

[shen ku]

I hate to say it but i think i know a few guys on the one video, myself and sean,,, but i am not saying which one i am because it was a long trip and i was dead by that point , or my form just sucks anyways...lol , but i enjoyed the trip, hay sean got any peanut butter?

[Syn7]

Like I said, it doesn't have to be a vid of yourself. Just a vid of any SD cat who is undeniably good.

I don't see how a proven fraudulent liar is qualified to teach Wu De or any concept involving truth and respect. Lying to people to get paid is not a good base for Wu De.

So lets see... Respect, Humility, Trust, Virtue, and Honor.
Respect I just covered.
Humility? Humble people do not lie about their qualifications, lineage or skill sets.
Trust? Goes both ways. Lying is counterproductive in an exercise of trust.
Virtue? Please, next.
Honor? Don't get me started on the concept of honor. needless to say, somebody who steals, lies, cheats etc have very little to no honor.

[Judge Pen]

SHAOLIN DO VS TAE KWON DO.......BATTLE OF THE DO'S

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK5RpP9v1zg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vDTeyUtLOs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd6UE3vLHk4&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn6StGgfvhA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ6S0y8Zq3Y

NOW, this is a video of from shaolin do when they went to china. at 18:55 of this video, am i wrong in assuming the guys speaking in the background were slightly insulting the performer who far better then everyone in shaolin do....but what i heard was "ya gotta clap or something" "yeah, gotta make feel good". am i wrong in my assumption about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqu9lfZ9aEg&playnext=1&list=PL65D121B689D84C7B&feature=results_video

I didn't see what you are describing at 18:55, but unless you can read lips in Mandarin I think you would be wrong to assume anything, just imagine it. :D

[Syn7]

I didn't see what you are describing at 18:55, but unless you can read lips in Mandarin I think you would be wrong to assume anything, just imagine it. :D

I heard it. Talkin bout how she left the circle.
Right after the sword demo they start sayin "wish I could train 8 hours a day", it was kinda p1ssy.

So I skipped ahead to SD and managed to make it thru the first two demos. Would you say that sword and empty hand form are good examples of SD? Sin The called them masters, well, the first one at least. Can't remember about the second, but he was a BB anyways. Does anyone do a form fast? Or is the second SD form about as fast as it gets?

Shaolin Do should have went first. :eek:








24 to go :D

[tattooedmonk]

Working out burns more calories than typing on a keyboard, just saying.:rolleyes::cool:

[tattooedmonk]

If I had your issues I would be... However, I do not ...I am tailgating at the Arizona cardinals game....:D:eek::cool:

[Judge Pen]

uh i was talking about the two guys behind the camera talking. don't need to read lips to listen with my ears. just sayin



My first impression after hearing these two talk was they "SOUNDED" like they were insinuating that whoever was on stage was not up to "SHAOLIN DO" standards. This i find extremely hillarious because i liked the real Chinese Gung Fu china was presenting. it was the Shaolin Do stuff that i actually had the toughest time dealling with. after watching that, my convictions that shaolin do may claim they are performing kung fu moves, but it is done with KARATE style.

My first reaction in regards to this was "how dare these people go to the mother land then insinuate they were somehow better".

Gotcha, I watched it with the sound down low and didn't hear that. If the SD guys were saying that, then those guys were royal *******s.

[Empty_Cup]

at least you got what im saying now. its guys like that and their AMERICAN attitude that wouldn't be allowed to learn gung fu. or shouldn't for that matter. i'm a firm believer about leaving your ethnicity at the door when you learn something from another culture.

it was funny to hear them patronizing the chinese with their BRAVO BRAVO (we gotta make feel good) ...

I agree. That was really close-minded.

[sean_stonehart]

I hate to say it but i think i know a few guys on the one video, myself and sean,,, but i am not saying which one i am because it was a long trip and i was dead by that point , or my form just sucks anyways...lol , but i enjoyed the trip, hay sean got any peanut butter?

Nope... no PB but I do have beef jerky. :D

My form sucks. I never have performed well. It's not in me. I'm pretty ok at application, I just don't do well for crowds.

Maybe why my time as a guitar player in a band here wasn't so good. I was great a practice & writing... just had performance issues.

[shen ku]

i know the feeling, i love to play with apps and dig into a form,, even if all my forms are made up or stolen.lol.. but i am still at it 27 years, i simply enjoy what i am doing

[One student]

Gotcha, I watched it with the sound down low and didn't hear that. If the SD guys were saying that, then those guys were royal *******s.


No doubt a lot of people who have never done anything other than SD, and think it is all there is, and have not exposed themselves to other practitioners of the same material from outside SD, may speak not from malice but from ignorance. Many view and participate in SD more as a social club sometimes. Nothing wrong with that if that is what they are looking for, but they might be looking for something they are used to seeing, not knowing that is not what they are looking at.

And I guess one could say that about a lot of schools. "A lot of people who have never done anything other than [insert school], and think it is all there is, and have not exposed themselves to other practitioners of the same material from outside [insert school], may speak not from malice, but from ignorance."

Then again, they could just be dumb***es.

[One student]

Mo Duk.....the only time i want MO DuK is at a banquet! LOL

Mo duk, wu de, bushido, by whatever name it is known:

"The way of a warrior is based on humanity, love and sincerity. The heart of martial valor is true bravery, wisdom, love, and friendship."

from Marihei Ushiba, founder of Aikido (or so I've been told).

Few can do it all, all of the time. All can strive for some, most of the time.

[Sima Rong]

Mo duk, wu de, bushido, by whatever name it is known:

"The way of a warrior is based on humanity, love and sincerity. The heart of martial valor is true bravery, wisdom, love, and friendship."

from Marihei Ushiba, founder of Aikido (or so I've been told).

Few can do it all, all of the time. All can strive for some, most of the time.

Yes, I think this is Morehei Ueshiba's interpretation of bushido later in life. He wasn't always so 'budo is about peace and love'. When he was younger, he used to go around breaking people. :)

I think Wude and Bushido are different, though related, things.

[Syn7]

what you steal, borrow, or take stuff for yourself, your own individual path, then i don't care what someone does as long as they don't make false claims about it.

if you stole something, and admitted it but demonstrated that you were pretty **** good with it i do believe you'd get some praises for making it work.

Yeah, but no matter how good they get at the stolen material, you can't blame the owners for being annoyed.If the owner chooses to praise the effort then that just shows the owner has very high integrity, doesn't change the fact that the material was ill gotten.




Do you believe shrimp boy?

[tattooedmonk]

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g84/belldsi/san-francisco-49ers-mad.jpg49ers kicked @$$ today against the seagulls. Haha should have known you were a division rival. :D cardinals are 4-0 B!tches!

[Bacon]

Yes, I think this is Morehei Ueshiba's interpretation of bushido later in life. He wasn't always so 'budo is about peace and love'. When he was younger, he used to go around breaking people. :)

I think Wude and Bushido are different, though related, things.

Ueshiba got old and his balls shriveled away. That's why his prewar teachings were awesome but what came after was flowery and most of the students from that time period ended up teaching nonsense.

All I can say is Yoshinkan!!

[Syn7]

I'm an officer of his tong bro. yes i do. i work very close with him. :)

so, from the inside, i will vouch for him that he is truly turning over a new leaf and has been getting hella awards for his efforts to change his past as of late.

Yeah it annoyed me that they are like "you sit and drink with gangsters? How can you say you have changed???"

What's he s'posed to do? Say no and end up in a ditch? Americans have a hard time understanding just how intertwined OC and regular life is for the Chinese community. And then Chinese get treated like sh1t to the point where they stick together and all the sudden this is suspect? White Americans who talk about "the greatest generation" never cease to amaze me on just how UN-worldly they really are.

And if Shrimp Boy does go back to crime, it doesn't mean that he wasn't sincere in his attempts to go straight.

[Syn7]

Ueshiba got old and his balls shriveled away. That's why his prewar teachings were awesome but what came after was flowery and most of the students from that time period ended up teaching nonsense.

All I can say is Yoshinkan!!

yeah, you really gotta wonder about those demos when he's kneeling and throwing big dudes all over the stage. He was like what? 80 pounds soaking wet at this point? His beard was half his mass. It just looked so much like those no touch frauds and the Judo cats who not only offer zero resistance, but actually throw themselves. You can see it in the hips. Looks like movie fighting, which is exactly what I described, dudes throwing themselves to make the shot look better than real life.

There is Judoka tossing men with ease, then there is nonsense. I have much respect for the real deal.

[Bacon]

yeah, you really gotta wonder about those demos when he's kneeling and throwing big dudes all over the stage. He was like what? 80 pounds soaking wet at this point? His beard was half his mass. It just looked so much like those no touch frauds and the Judo cats who not only offer zero resistance, but actually throw themselves. You can see it in the hips. Looks like movie fighting, which is exactly what I described, dudes throwing themselves to make the shot look better than real life.

There is Judoka tossing men with ease, then there is nonsense. I have much respect for the real deal.

And you can see the difference in the end result of the folks he taught ore and postwar. Shioda is the best out of any aikidoka in my opinion, maybe even better than Ueshiba, but certainly better than all the other IMO. But the prewar group is hardcore training plus effective technique while the postwar group is magical ki nonsense.

[Syn7]

Nope... no PB but I do have beef jerky. :D

My form sucks. I never have performed well. It's not in me. I'm pretty ok at application, I just don't do well for crowds.

Maybe why my time as a guitar player in a band here wasn't so good. I was great a practice & writing... just had performance issues.

Yeah, some folks will never know how they fight until they actually get in a real fight. It's amazing what you can accomplish when your fight or flight instinct chooses to fight. I've seen people with little to no training do amazing things under real pressure.

It reminds me of that saying "I can run faster scared than you can mad!"
When you truly fear for your life and you don't have the kind of mind that just shuts down and gives up, you will be surprised how well you do. Whether you win or lose. Unfortunately, performance anxiety is an indicator of one who is more likely to choose flight. And when they get caught and feel hopeless, unlike others who go nuts, they just shut down. Some turtle, some go crazy. You'll never know for sure which type you are till you experience it first hand.

Which vid are you in and which one is you?

[Syn7]

it was funny to hear them patronizing the chinese with their BRAVO BRAVO.


In some cases the BRAVO BRAVO was real. Like most uneducated observers, they are impressed by the flash and not the substance. They see a high aerial landing in the splits and they get so impressed, when the really impressive parts went un-noticed to the guys in the background.

It reminds me of how it was when I was competing alot as a B-Boy. You would see guys go in and do amazing footwork, insane transitions and flow like a motherfukcer and only the B-Boys are impressed cause they know how good it is. Then some twatt comes in and jumps right into a windmill with no uprock or footwork, transitions to a flare then to a 1990 back to flare and then into airflares and the crowd goes insane. The real B-Boys are like :rolleyes: yaaay. Or the worst is when the geeks get into headspin p1ssing contests and just run to the center and jump right into a headspin and tap out for 60 or 70 rotations and the crowd goes crazy, then some cat roks out sick drillz with like 15 rotations and people are like "well the other guy spun more". So annoying, they have no idea that taps can go on indefinitely and if you can do 10, you can do 1000 rotations. Nothing special. But with drillz you have to take all your power from the get go and make it work for you without tapping or flaring out. :rolleyes: Uneducated crowds always miss the best parts.

rant :eek:

:p

[Syn7]

And you can see the difference in the end result of the folks he taught ore and postwar. Shioda is the best out of any aikidoka in my opinion, maybe even better than Ueshiba, but certainly better than all the other IMO. But the prewar group is hardcore training plus effective technique while the postwar group is magical ki nonsense.

Why?

Was it a cash grab because idiots wanted to believe in garbage? Or did he start buying in to his own legend? Or what?

[MasterKiller]

NOW, this is a video of from shaolin do when they went to china. at 18:55 of this video, am i wrong in assuming the guys speaking in the background were slightly insulting the performer who far better then everyone in shaolin do....but what i heard was "ya gotta clap or something" "yeah, gotta make feel good". am i wrong in my assumption about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqu9lfZ9aEg&playnext=1&list=PL65D121B689D84C7B&feature=results_video

What he says is "Bravo." Then, "Can't clap so I gotta do something."

I'm assuming it's because he's holding the camera.

[shen ku]

get what you are saying i did hear all that, but maybe, just a thought, he was saying that about making them feel good because it was all kids doing the show?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ueshiba got old and his balls shriveled away. That's why his prewar teachings were awesome but what came after was flowery and most of the students from that time period ended up teaching nonsense.

All I can say is Yoshinkan!!

Even the Yoshinkan has "suffered" as of late, being far more "compliant" than it was.
Ueshiba was a hard-core scrapper, much like his teacher Takeda and it was because of this fighting background that we was able to be more "spiritual" as he got older.
Those, Like Shioda, that trained under the "younger" Ueshiba, when Aikido was more MARTIAL than "way", got the benefits from that.
Unfortunately, lots has been lost ever since.

[MasterKiller]

you left out the next sentence. "yeah, you gotta make em feel good". That was the deal sealer FOR ME.

First guy: Bravo.

First guy: Can't clap. Gotta do something.

Second guy: Yeah

First guy: Make em' feel good.

Second guy: Yeah

First guy: Good Enthusiasm


I think you're reading too much into it. He's just saying since he can't clap, he wanted to show some appreciation. That's my take on it.

[tattooedmonk]

you left out the next sentence. "yeah, you gotta make em feel good". That was the deal sealer FOR ME.

Don't you think you are reading into this too much!? How do you know who it is that made the comment!?

I get where you are coming from and respect your opinion but this is getting ridiculous.


Btw ... I am planning a trip up to the bay for the 49ers cardinals game, maybe we meet, talk tcma and have a meal!?

Also , dropped in on jakes school this weekend... He was out of town. Talked to his assistant instructor , really nice guy . Watch h do a white crane conditioning class, it was pretty **** good. It was all Kung Fu and no fluff. It was good to see, the videos are just that videos. I think that most of it is just to show the SD CSC what they lost.

He still needs to knocked down a few notches , if he isn't, then he will never learn anything and then it's just kungrate.

[tattooedmonk]

First guy: Bravo.

First guy: Can't clap. Gotta do something.

Second guy: Yeah

First guy: Make em' feel good.

Second guy: Yeah

First guy: Good Enthusiasm


I think you're reading too much into it. He's just saying since he can't clap, he wanted to show some appreciation. That's my take on it.

We agree on something.:D

[bodhi warrior]

Don't you think you are reading into this too much!? How do you know who it is that made the comment!?

I get where you are coming from and respect your opinion but this is getting ridiculous.


Btw ... I am planning a trip up to the bay for the 49ers cardinals game, maybe we meet, talk tcma and have a meal!?

Also , dropped in on jakes school this weekend... He was out of town. Talked to his assistant instructor , really nice guy . Watch h do a white crane conditioning class, it was pretty **** good. It was all Kung Fu and no fluff. It was good to see, the videos are just that videos. I think that most of it is just to show the SD CSC what they lost.

He still needs to knocked down a few notches , if he isn't, then he will never learn anything and then it's just kungrate.

What did this white crane conditioning class consist of?

[tattooedmonk]

What did this white crane conditioning class consist of?Basics, stretching, bag work, condtioning, etc... nothing revolutionary or new ...just good solid hard work...it was good to see. they werent all over the place teaching all this materail in a cram session.

Jakes style is all his own . He is a canadian / american :eek::p:Dwho has practiced many styles from many people , this is his interpretaion of it. He is athletic and really cares about what he does and his student love him and respect him as well.

i still have to say he needs humbling and work on adding the chinese flavor to it if he wants to call it what he does...just saying

[Jimbo]

Is it practicing many styles, or just collecting many different forms? There's a big difference between the two.

[Syn7]

Basics, stretching, bag work, condtioning, etc... nothing revolutionary or new ...just good solid hard work...it was good to see. they werent all over the place teaching all this materail in a cram session.

Jakes style is all his own . He is a canadian / american :eek::p:Dwho has practiced many styles from many people , this is his interpretaion of it. He is athletic and really cares about what he does and his student love him and respect him as well.

i still have to say he needs humbling and work on adding the chinese flavor to it if he wants to call it what he does...just saying

Oh yeah? Where's he from, in Canada, that is?

So he is not humble? Like c0cky? arrogant? He didn't seem like an egomaniac on the clips I saw, he just looked like a kungarateka, that's all.

He looks like a guy who did Karate and/or TKD for years and considered himself good, then learned some CMA forms and interpreted them with his Karate/TKD theory.

You see it all the time. And a purist can spot it a mile away. And if you wanna call HSK anything, dude is a purist historian motherfukcer. It's kungarate(love that word), str8 up. I saw it on my own and the rest that HSK pointed out was obvious to me. I don't agree with everything he says, but on this one he's got it called all day. It doesn't really have anything to do with whether it would work or not. Personally, I haven't seen much that I think would work well, but that's me.

Anyone who was brought up with a pure CMA style will see it. I know SD cats have been on the defense for ever, that should speak volumes.

[Syn7]

Is it practicing many styles, or just collecting many different forms? There's a big difference between the two.

Form collecting can be okay if you stay within your sphere, know what I mean? You will interpret the movements with the knowledge you have from your own style, so if you collect forms from similar styles and use them your own way, that's cool. What's crazy is taking forms from all over the map.

[Bacon]

Form collecting can be okay if you stay within your sphere, know what I mean? You will interpret the movements with the knowledge you have from your own style, so if you collect forms from similar styles and use them your own way, that's cool. What's crazy is taking forms from all over the map.

Although.... Sometimes taking something from another system is a big help. For example when I did aikido back in highschool and was having difficulty with some of the concepts or movements I'd drill movements from judo, tai chi, bagua, and hsing yi. Heck I probably did things very wrong from the standpoint of those arts but it served its purpose and I got over my rut in really getting certain concepts and movements down.

[brucereiter]

http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html

there are a lot of discrepancies between what is stated on sin the's website and what is said in the deposition.

when did ie chang ming make sin the a 10th degree grandmaster? he says it was when he was 25 on the website but in the deposition he says it was when he was in indonesia. he left indonesia at age 22 according to the website.

[Syn7]

http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html

there are a lot of discrepancies between what is stated on sin the's website and what is said in the deposition.

when did ie chang ming make sin the a 10th degree grandmaster? he says it was when he was 25 on the website but in the deposition he says it was when he was in indonesia. he left indonesia at age 22 according to the website.

10th degree grandmaster??? That is just insulting to people who are ranked more realistically. Most of the higher titles are honorary and I have NEVER heard of a legit 10th level "grandmaster", whatever grandmaster means. To me it simply means you have masters under you, teaching. Like a grandfather. Doesn't mean you're any good tho. I've seen tons of garbage "grandmasters". It's on the school to keep their rankings legit and realistic. Unfortunately some get right carried away with these titles that mean nothing.

I've seen a few Sin The vids and I a, yet to be impressed. Not even a little bit. I would love to see him jump in the cage or do some kyokushin tourneys or something.

[Empty_Cup]

http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html

there are a lot of discrepancies between what is stated on sin the's website and what is said in the deposition.

when did ie chang ming make sin the a 10th degree grandmaster? he says it was when he was 25 on the website but in the deposition he says it was when he was in indonesia. he left indonesia at age 22 according to the website.

My understanding is he went back to Indonesia to visit but was living in the US.

[kwaichang]

Surely you jest , I have known people who were 5th degree TKD Masters who went to Korea and came back a month later a 7th deg. Its across the board. BTWE Sin The is 65 I think or so so he wil not be doing Kyokushin kai tourneys. KC Just silly!!

[sean_stonehart]

Surely you jest , I have known people who were 5th degree TKD Masters who went to Korea and came back a month later a 7th deg. Its across the board. BTWE Sin The is 65 I think or so so he wil not be doing Kyokushin kai tourneys. KC Just silly!!

5th to 7th?? Not a big jump. They'll do that here in the US every couple of years. The Kukkiwon will have these big, long weekend seminars & literally you can go from 4th to 6th degree in a weekend.

What's worse though... I've known (personally) 1st degrees leaving unnamed countries in Asia & landing 12+ hours or more in the US as 5th degrees (Masters)with more events titles under their belt that could truly be possible since that would mean almost everybody that competed at said event left as the Grand Champion. But that all goes back to "Don't pee in MY Fruity Pebbles & I won't pee in YOURS".

[Empty_Cup]

Focusing on how many degrees of black belt there are is another superficial attack.

If a style has 4 degrees of black but it takes 40 years of dedication/training to achieve 4th black, how is that any different from a style that has 10 degrees of black if it also takes 40 years of dedication/training to achieve?

How the regimen is segmented is up to the style and is, as KC pointed out, different across the board.

Weren't the skill levels in ancient times simply broken down into Apprentice, Disciple, Master, and Grandmaster?

[sean_stonehart]

Focusing on how many degrees of black belt there are is another superficial attack.

If a style has 4 degrees of black but it takes 40 years of dedication/training to achieve 4th black, how is that any different from a style that has 10 degrees of black if it also takes 40 years of dedication/training to achieve?

How the regimen is segmented is up to the style and is, as KC pointed out, different across the board.

Weren't the skill levels in ancient times simply broken down into Apprentice, Disciple, Master, and Grandmaster?

Actually... at my teacher's, there was only teacher and student. You knew who you were. Didn't need titles except for Sifu for one person. Actually... pretty much everybody I have trained with for the past little while has been that way. No need for anything else.

[Syn7]

Surely you jest , I have known people who were 5th degree TKD Masters who went to Korea and came back a month later a 7th deg. Its across the board. BTWE Sin The is 65 I think or so so he wil not be doing Kyokushin kai tourneys. KC Just silly!!

What? Korea has no frauds? Or people who rank less realistically than the norm? I would love to see a competition for 7th degree BB.

Also, BB is not the same as Grandmaster.

[Syn7]

Surely you jest , I have known people who were 5th degree TKD Masters who went to Korea and came back a month later a 7th deg. Its across the board. BTWE Sin The is 65 I think or so so he wil not be doing Kyokushin kai tourneys. KC Just silly!!

Oh ok so his titles are honorary then. Just an organ enlargement huh.

I'm ok with honorary titles. Just don't make them skill titles. Call them grand dragon moon surfers for all I care, just don't hand out un-earned stripes. And the only way to get another stripe is to physically EARN it. If you are too old, you are too old. All titles become honorary after what was actually earned. Earned REALISTICALLY, that is.

[Lucas]

I'm a Grand Dragon Moon Surfer. I earned that title.

[Judge Pen]

I'm a Grand Dragon Moon Surfer. I earned that title.

Funny I am too, but it was given to me.

[Lucas]

Funny I am too, but it was given to me.

Dude, you are so not the real deal like I am. I challenge you to a Dragon Moon Surfing contest.

[shen ku]

i believe at one time the ATA had it to were if you had tought set number of students or had set number of students, something like that, that you couldn't advance into various levels of upper black ranks.

i always thought that grandmaster was kind of the one highest person or acting overseer of a system or art.....

[Syn7]

Grandmaster is just the gwailo term for sigung. Just because you have students doesn't mean you know what you're doing. And a guy with 40 students isn't necessarily better or worse than a guy with 4 students.

Again, Grandmaster does not mean BB. It's an honorary title of respect. Not much different than the normal family dynamic. Grampa gets maad respect cause he's old and wise. Doesn't really have much to do with skill. It's just assumed that if you respect your style that the sigung would be worth his salt. Or was.

Recently you see people meshing those terms into rankings, but that is built off the original misunderstanding. Chinese didn't rank that way.

[Syn7]

Dude, you are so not the real deal like I am. I challenge you to a Dragon Moon Surfing contest.

Excuse me? I don't recall you asking permission to go public? Shush!!! When the revolution comes we will make ourselves known. Besides, your just a master dragon moon surfer, not a GRAND dragon moon surfer. When you graduate we'll hook you up with the real footwork! Lucky for you, ninja werewolves move thru the program much faster than most.

Kids:rolleyes:

[Syn7]

Your school is fake. They got all their forms from our books and they don't even wear the right uniforms. Those are Comet Sufer Gi's, not Moon surfer silks.


Posuer!

[Syn7]

whatever, comet surfer.:rolleyes: You can't handle the moon.

Our oral tradition is law! They do not evelove over the years like yours do!

[Syn7]

Actually... at my teacher's, there was only teacher and student. You knew who you were. Didn't need titles except for Sifu for one person. Actually... pretty much everybody I have trained with for the past little while has been that way. No need for anything else.

That is pretty common for chinese schools. You learn material then when sifu thinks you're ready, you learn the next form, apps etc. You know how good other students are because you know sifus standards and what forms they know. That and just looking at them, it's pretty obvious as to who knows what and who's good and who isn't.

Age is somewhat of a factor. Kids are treated a lil differently and move diff pace.

[Vajramusti]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_stonehart View Post
Actually... at my teacher's, there was only teacher and student. You knew who you were. Didn't need titles except for Sifu for one person. Actually... pretty much everybody I have trained with for the past little while has been that way. No need for anything else.
That is pretty common for chinese schools. You learn material then when sifu thinks you're ready, you learn the next form, apps etc. You know how good other students are because you know sifus standards and what forms they know. That and just looking at them, it's pretty obvious as to who knows what and who's good and who isn't.

Age is somewhat of a factor. Kids are treated a lil differently and move diff pace.
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Reply With Quote

((I know SD-ers believe that they understood what they thought was a good TCMA form or style
but I am not sure that SD-ers understood what was meant"))---Roscoe not so Wild

[Judge Pen]

All you phoney moon dragon surfers will fail. I have the secret herbal supplements that elevate the moon surfing skillz to the 19th level. I am surfing in a different plane of reality.

Trouble is I'm running out of herbs.

[shen ku]

Besure and roll that herb tight, you don't want to let anyone elsa to get contact skills

[Lucas]

Trouble is I'm running out of herbs.

You should get your Dragon Moon Surfer card, then you can just visit a dispensary.

[kwaichang]

Although I am not privey to the reality of what u all are saying , I will testify that all of you have GREAT ORAL SKILLS, that must be what a Moon/comet surfer truly is. No ones skills may match yours. LOL :) KC

[Syn7]

there's nowhere better than killer cali contact skillz

Haven't we been thru this?

[Syn7]

All you phoney moon dragon surfers will fail. I have the secret herbal supplements that elevate the moon surfing skillz to the 19th level. I am surfing in a different plane of reality.

Trouble is I'm running out of herbs.

NoNo, what you do is not surfing, it's sailing.

Sailor moon mutherfukcer!!!! :p




29 to go................

[Sima Rong]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=869623591027667708

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/harley-quinn-cosplay.jpg

[Lucas]

NoNo, what you do is not surfing, it's sailing.

Sailor moon mutherfukcer!!!! :p



and we have proof!!! We got you now!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wQinj1gDgJk/TFX1sh4_lwI/AAAAAAAAAEY/on7d5-iNiEM/s1600/ManSailorMoon.jpg

[Sima Rong]

Me no understand...:confused:

Maybe we can find a new idea somewhere http://www.kanpai-japan.com/files/2010/10/cosplay-sailor-moon-sexy.jpg

[Syn7]

and we have proof!!! We got you now!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wQinj1gDgJk/TFX1sh4_lwI/AAAAAAAAAEY/on7d5-iNiEM/s1600/ManSailorMoon.jpg

See!!! They don't even have surfer wear, that's sailing gear. What surfer in his right mind dresses as a sailor???

[Empty_Cup]

See!!! They don't even have surfer wear, that's sailing gear. What surfer in his right mind dresses as a sailor???

...the Sailor Surfer...and it's a she.

[Sima Rong]

Sailor surfer? That's just a midget fairy shooting planes. :D

Anyway, she needs to hold onto it I think. I don't think she has enough waist to hold up her upper body.

[Syn7]

...the Sailor Surfer...and it's a she.

Just another sailor frontin like a surfer. Nada new.

I'm pretty sure the person I was talking about is male. Sorry you missed it.

Here is a visual representation of you missing it:

|||||| O ||| || |



(It's s'posed to be the doppler effect :rolleyes:)


That pic is anti-sexy. I never understood these kinds of exaggerations

[Syn7]

wait.... this one is much better.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Dopplerfrequenz.gif


28 to go................

[kwaichang]

GLAD to see the gangs all here to celebrate 1000 soon. KC Happy training all !:)

[Judge Pen]

You all are behind. My page count is already at 1400 +

[shaolin_allan]

BrotherLove everyone had moved away from the subject of Shaolin-dojo b.s. till you opened your mouth. You, like Sin The are retarded. Go shave your gm's backhair so u can learn the new form he just got off youtube.

[kwaichang]

SHAOLIN DO THREAD CLOSED WHY IT WAS CLOSE TO 1000 PAGES. THE CORPORATE SPEAKS AND CONTROLS ALL WE CAN SAY OR DO ? WHY IS THAT ? bUMMER, NOW i CANT SPEAK WITH MANY FRIENDS I MET ON THERE. SUX. KC

[MasterKiller]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pXVpckj7Aqc/T9Zl4bmhpUI/AAAAAAAADF0/S7WC1V-4D6M/s640/there-is-no-need-to-be-upset-lawn-mower.gif

[Old Noob]

Why was the thread closed and by who?

[MasterKiller]

http://i.imgur.com/aaPda.jpg

[Old Noob]

So the answer is big gorilla? Is it that hard to get a straight answer here? Why was the thread locked? This isn't a big censorship board so WTF? Nobody's crying; just asking a question.

[GeneChing]

I got a complaint. I'm letting it cool off. I might open it again. I might not. Nothing corporate about that at all. In all honesty, I've just been waiting for a complaint to push me to close that one. :)

If I really wanted to censor it, I would have deleted it.

[Shaolin]

NOW i CANT SPEAK WITH MANY FRIENDS I MET ON THERE.

Are you serious? That was honestly the only way you could communicate with them? There's no possible alternative?

[GeneChing]

But not today. I don't want to spoil my Friday. We'll see how it looks on Monday.

[Old Noob]

I got a complaint. I'm letting it cool off. I might open it again. I might not. Nothing corporate about that at all. In all honesty, I've just been waiting for a complaint to push me to close that one. :)

If I really wanted to censor it, I would have deleted it.

Gene,

Thanks for the answer. So, for future reference, if something on a given thread bothers me such that I complain to you, you'll close that thread?

[MasterKiller]

Gene,

Thanks for the answer. So, for future reference, if something on a given thread bothers me such that I complain to you, you'll close that thread?

Case by case

[Old Noob]

Case by case

So there's no standard?

Seriously, if you get a complaint, why not warn the user who drove the complaint or, better yet, since, as has been discussed on these fora before, we're fairly troll-tolerant here, why not just admonish the complainer to brush up on their keyboard-fu and not be inflamed by trolls?

I'm not crying; I'm asking what makes this not purely arbitrary? Seems to me you close a thread if the thread is, on the whole, offensive or of an unacceptable nature and not because an individual posted something on a thread that illicited a complaint.

There are mods on this board who shamelessly troll and who call people inflamatory names, even noobs who've been here only once or twice. All manner of flame wars go on here. Near porn gets posted here regularly. I'm not complaining about any of it. My complaint is that the shutting down of a thread, which has some good stuff in it despite the reparte of the last couple of days, seems really arbitrary given what goes on here on a day to day basis. If you want to be arbitrary, I guess that's your right as the owner of the board but, if that's not your intent, you should either unlock it or be able to say why, in the case-by-case basis system, the complaint necessitated locking the thread.

[Shaolin]

Old Noob, we are playing in someone else's yard, therefore we need to play by their rules, and if they choose to rip the toy out of our hands that we were playing with that's just the way it is. I myself have had to learn this as well. And yes the popular kids get favoritism. There's honestly no point to fight it because you won't be heard. So either fall in line or leave the forum.

[GeneChing]

To be honest, I closed it on a whim. And I may re-open it on a whim later. If that bothers you, perhaps you have a misguided idea of what this forum is.

It may surprise you all to learn that I don't actually receive that many formal complaints. We get about one every week or two. And most of them come from the same individual (who is hopefully reading this and now realizes that he's the only person complaining so much). Now, mind you, there are some complaints that are PMed directly to a specific forum mod so I might not see those, although they are usually cc-ed to me.

[Old Noob]

Old Noob, we are playing in someone else's yard, therefore we need to play by their rules, and if they choose to rip the toy out of our hands that we were playing with that's just the way it is. I myself have had to learn this as well. And yes the popular kids get favoritism. There's honestly no point to fight it because you won't be heard. So either fall in line or leave the forum.

I was just trying to figure out what the rules were. I now understand that the rules change second by second depending on the positions of certain astrological signs, the caffienation level of the mods, the "popularity level" of the people involved, the douche-factor, and the thin-skinnedness of the one forum member who can't seem to fight his own battles and cries to his forum momma when something offends him. I got it now. Thanks.

[MasterKiller]

http://migration.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/crying_baby.gif?w=500

[Old Noob]

http://migration.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/crying_baby.gif?w=500

Yet another fine example of judicious modding and standard setting by MK. We should probably close this thread.

[GeneChing]

I was just about to close this thread, just for fun. Now you've done gone and spoiled it. :(

As for rules standards, in general, we're pretty lenient around here. I must say I find the reaction to closing the Is Shaolin-Do for real? thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782) pretty amusing right now, but it's a slow Friday so I'm easily amused. It's tempting me to close more threads just to open more discussion, as paradoxical as that might seem.

[MasterKiller]

Yet another fine example of judicious modding and standard setting by MK. We should probably close this thread. I'm not here to set standards. I'm here to make sure Gene has a good weekend. Rarely do the two coincide.

[Old Noob]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_la9zpz8tH01qdisuwo1_500.jpg

Frank, are you so stupid you confuse questions with crying or are you just looking for a reason to post your male erotica collection?

[GeneChing]

And I do confess that I am equally disturbed by HSK's post as Old Noob seems to be. :eek:

[GeneChing]

shock value man. shock value. unless one of you really are wearing fish net stockings. :eek: Dude, you're the one who posted it. I don't think I would have even gone searching for it. :eek:

[MasterKiller]

He lives in SF, afterall. He probably sees worse than that on his way to get the paper.

[GeneChing]

17 more to go. That's what makes this so delicious.

[kwaichang]

1000 pages and now its locked sounds l;ike what my 7 year old would do, and on a second note Why is MK a moderator any way a moderator should keep the peace , he doesnt. He inflames everyone , there for i want to post this formal complaint against him and his assinyne ways he should be fired or barred himself. What a Douche. I find it odd that this SD thread had so many posts and comments compared to all the others out there. It must be a popular one. Making decisions of this nature on a whim is not good business in my opinion, maybe that is what is happeniong in the US so we have a 90 trillion dollar deficit. Sux KC

[IronWeasel]

1000 pages and now its locked sounds l;ike what my 7 year old would do, and on a second note Why is MK a moderator any way a moderator should keep the peace , he doesnt. He inflames everyone , there for i want to post this formal complaint against him and his assinyne ways he should be fired or barred himself. What a Douche. I find it odd that this SD thread had so many posts and comments compared to all the others out there. It must be a popular one. Making decisions of this nature on a whim is not good business in my opinion, maybe that is what is happeniong in the US so we have a 90 trillion dollar deficit. Sux KC


SD has 1000 posts for the same reason that Jersey Shore has more than one season.

Fake, contrived, bottom feeders.

If anything deserves an eye roll more than 'Snooki'...it's SD.


:rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

The SD thread drew more attention than all the others combined and one Dip got it closed how is that. ? Even though SD is "not real" it drew more interest on this forum and more posts than all the "real" kung fu's did ? interesting maybe that is why it was stpped. Jealousy. KC