Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[sean_stonehart]

Let's just get it to 1001 before anything else...

[tattooedmonk]

come on man! if i tell you that it ruins my fun. :eek: :D

its like what a cat does right before eating the rat.well thinking I am an SD guy shows how little you know...former SD guy 15 years in..... ;):rolleyes:
I have ten + years traditional CMA training besides that ...some of it in CLF!:eek:

and Japanese arts , like judo and jujutsu...etc. total 30 years in the arts..:D:cool:

[hskwarrior]

well thinking I am an SD guy shows how little you know...former SD guy 15 years in.....
I have ten + years traditional CMA training besides that ...some of it in CLF!

and Japanese arts , like judo and jujutsu...etc. total 30 years in the arts..

SURE YOU DO. I'M SURE OF IT. :rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

rotfflmfao@ttm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

(you don't know the form. Stop lying.) you know the form. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Sure you do. ;) and you're good at it too huh? ;) :d yeah right!yes,I do.... first move - Crane flies to the sky? DFW or
White Crane Flies to the Edge of the Sky? SKT....its a very easy move, even jake showed it...:p

HSk version....? lyricss , names for moves? anything?

[hskwarrior]

Crane flies to the what? Into the engine of a plane in the sky? Is that right? Did the crane die?

THIS IS JAKE THE FAKE. ENJOY...LAUGH.....SMIRK AS HE TRIES TO DO OUR FORM. ITS TOO FUNNY FOR ME TO WATCH ANYMORE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUNENvkRGd0

HE SAID 'CHOY LEE FOO" LIKE A FACKIN ****** WHO NEVER BEEN AROUND KUNG FU IN HIS LIFE.


THAT IS ALSO THE GAYEST DEMONSTRATION I'VE EVER SEEN. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Old Noob]

You two do realize that, from a netiquette standpoint, you're the same person, right?

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://jadedviewer.com/uploaded_images/blackdynamite-1-752912.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://static.dangerousminds.net/uploads/images/Bruce_Lee.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.thenextgreatgeneration.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Sex_and_Zen3d.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqswg9IcAq1qefm89o3_500.gif

[hskwarrior]

you two do realize that, from a netiquette standpoint, you're the same person, right?

i hear you man. But wu de or mo duk are for the literati's which is all good. But i don't live in that world. Although i'm only 2nd generation american, i'm american. I know the difference of cultural differences as i grew up with many many many different peoples. And i know how to deal with them.

But this is the kung fu world where people take what they do seriously. I don't care if people don't like how i approach things in some cases. Most of the time i deal with people on this forum in a tongue in cheek manner because i know its just a forum.

But all of the people i've met off of this forum gets to see a side of me the forum doesn't. Because behind the computer you all can kick chuck norris' ass.

[bawang]

well thinking I am an SD guy shows how little you know...former SD guy 15 years in..... ;):rolleyes:
I have ten + years traditional CMA training besides that ...some of it in CLF!:eek:

and Japanese arts , like judo and jujutsu...etc. total 30 years in the arts..:D:cool:

sounds like martial art window shopper. get in get out.

[buddajoe]

Hey you guys go too fast! . Our school's story of the origin of U-Ming should make you think! Why would a young martial artist want to learn from a woman. It would be uncommon in the Ching dynasty. Yuan Simu was a northern family stylist. Family styles in China were exclusive. Professor Lau Bun jumped all these hurdles to learn. Surely this set must have great value considering how many conventions were broken.
with this in mind we should realize that U-Ming was a closed door set only for Si-mu's family and no direct connection to the Shaolin Temple.
How is it that in this modern era that a form that was exclusive and converted to another style appear elsewhere?
How it that this form, at least Part1&2 follow the same basic sequence with some additional fluff as U-Ming?
Amazing enough this form lacks the structure and strategy similar to the book.
The lyrics , I believe were made up for the book or at least were a bad translation.
I myself never learned an lyrics but learned some of the names of the different sections and none were even remotely like those in the book.
As far as "The Crane flies in the sky" which is sort of funny is simply Piercing Hand, in a Empty horse, a common movement in CLF.
I respect DFW and also the deceased Jane Hollander who wrote this book to promote CLF but I feel way to much journalistic licensee was taken and confused the public unintentionally.

[tattooedmonk]

sounds like martial art window shopper. get in get out.
Funny.. Huh 10 years and 15 year, other arts over 20 years hello!? Window shopping? I think not... 32 years total uh hmmm !?:rolleyes::confused::eek::D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Hey you guys go too fast! . Our school's story of the origin of U-Ming should make you think! Why would a young martial artist want to learn from a woman. It would be uncommon in the Ching dynasty. Yuan Simu was a northern family stylist. Family styles in China were exclusive. Professor Lau Bun jumped all these hurdles to learn. Surely this set must have great value considering how many conventions were broken.
with this in mind we should realize that U-Ming was a closed door set only for Si-mu's family and no direct connection to the Shaolin Temple.
How is it that in this modern era that a form that was exclusive and converted to another style appear elsewhere?
How it that this form, at least Part1&2 follow the same basic sequence with some additional fluff as U-Ming?
Amazing enough this form lacks the structure and strategy similar to the book.
The lyrics , I believe were made up for the book or at least were a bad translation.
I myself never learned an lyrics but learned some of the names of the different sections and none were even remotely like those in the book.
As far as "The Crane flies in the sky" which is sort of funny is simply Piercing Hand, in a Empty horse, a common movement in CLF.
I respect DFW and also the deceased Jane Hollander who wrote this book to promote CLF but I feel way to much journalistic licensee was taken and confused the public unintentionally.super secret kungfu huh!?:rolleyes:

[Drake]

OH JESUS CHRIST, STFU.

GM DFW flat out told me he leaves moves out of his books... and for a very good reason. If you DID learn from the book, I guarantee you it is incomplete.

HSK is RIGHT here. Yeah, he may be wrong in a lot of things, but he is absolutely, without any degree of uncertainty, absolutely right here.

He isn't a bully. He's protective of his art... and given the sneaky, weasily nature of Shaolin Do, I don't blame him in the least. Again, and pay attention here... if you are learning from the book, you aren't learning the whole thing.

[hskwarrior]

funny.. Huh 10 years and 15 year, other arts over 20 years hello!? Window shopping? I think not... 32 years total uh hmmm !?

like drake said, stfu.

[tattooedmonk]

What do you mean by that line? Are you saying there is enough of the form that jake performed to determine if it's the same as DFW's book?isnt...:) sorry.:D

[tattooedmonk]

OH JESUS CHRIST, STFU.

GM DFW flat out told me he leaves moves out of his books... and for a very good reason. If you DID learn from the book, I guarantee you it is incomplete.

HSK is RIGHT here. Yeah, he may be wrong in a lot of things, but he is absolutely, without any degree of uncertainty, absolutely right here.

He isn't a bully. He's protective of his art... and given the sneaky, weasily nature of Shaolin Do, I don't blame him in the least. Again, and pay attention here... if you are learning from the book, you aren't learning the whole thing.wow thats a new one...:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

OH JESUS CHRIST, STFU.

GM DFW flat out told me he leaves moves out of his books... and for a very good reason. If you DID learn from the book, I guarantee you it is incomplete.

HSK is RIGHT here. Yeah, he may be wrong in a lot of things, but he is absolutely, without any degree of uncertainty, absolutely right here.

He isn't a bully. He's protective of his art... and given the sneaky, weasily nature of Shaolin Do, I don't blame him in the least. Again, and pay attention here... if you are learning from the book, you aren't learning the whole thing.really, and why is he right?:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

really, and why is he right?
Reply With Quote

CUZ YOU'RE WRONG YOU IDIOT. :rolleyes:


Empty_Cup View Post
What do you mean by that line? Are you saying there is enough of the form that jake performed to determine if it's the same as DFW's book?

HE DOESN'T KNOW. AT ALL. I CAN TELL YOU THAT FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END OF THE FIRST PART AND MUCH OF THE SECOND PART IS ALMOST MOVE FOR MOVE THE SAME. BUT I CAN PICK THAT APART IN MY SLEEP. EVEN MY SIFU SAW JAKE'S FORM AND SAID IT WAS OUR FORM. HE'S THE HEAD OF OUR LINEAGE AND THAT FORM IS ONE OF HIS SPECIALTIES.

[Empty_Cup]

alone should prove they arent the same , right?

I mean SKTs lyrics are different than DFWs...and if he copied the book why would he have alternate lyrics...

whats more is that SKTs are the actual 128 moves for each posture where DFWs is not...why?

if SKT didnt get them from DFW or HSK then where and why are they complete?

yet no one in HSK camp knows about them...!?

how do you distinguish between each animal and their movments as you change back and forth throughout the form?

hmm there is already some doubt.:rolleyes::eek::D;):cool:

hsk avoided these questions but I'd like to see his response.

[hskwarrior]

hsk avoided these questions but i'd like to see his response.

thieves don't deserve any answers. I'll tell you this much, i'd tell sin the right to his face that i know he or jake took our form and repackaged it.


whats more is that skts are the actual 128 moves for each posture where dfws is not...why?

this is based on what? What did you use to confirm this? There is no other form in existence to compare it to. Zero. Well, there's the one shaolin do took from dfw's book, but there is no other source.

i've been asking repeatedly for someone in shaolin do, ex or current to show me, inform me, tell me where did sin the learn it? If you say from that hairy monk, keep it to yourself, nobody believes that circus attraction was ever a martial artist.

ya know why he, you, sean, jp, jake, sin the, can't show me an alternative source? Because the only source for that form for you guys was dfw's book ear marks and all.


how do you distinguish between each animal and their movments as you change back and forth throughout the form?

this is nknowledge that belongs to us so if you want to know, come to my sifu's school and he will correct you on it. What are you afraid of?

The form jake is fakely tryng to pass off as shaolin do is dfw's book. Yes, it is and we know it is. Just because you guys change or add a move doesn't mean the frame work isn't there section for section. I will pick you apart like a fat ***** would a chicken bone. Try me.

[hskwarrior]

Sin the is a proven fraud but his cult doesn't want to see the truth. From sexual abuse accusations, fake gung fu, to being frauds, i'd be ashamed to be connected to this lineage. Especially when you suckas are defending something you know deep in your hearts that sin the is a fraud and stole our form.

YOU FACKING RETARDS DON'T EVEN GET IT WHEN THE WHOLE FORUM THAT KNOWS OR IS A PART OF MY DIRECT LINEAGE IS TELLING YOU TO YOUR FORUM FACES THAT SIN THE STOLE THE FORM.

I MEAN ITS GOD **** HILLARIOUS. JAKE THE FAKE IS TELLING PEOPLE HE DOESN'T NEED A SIFU OR A LINEAGE BECAUSE HE LEARNS GUNG FU FROM THE EARTH. ALL OF THE SH1T HE POSTS GETS CLOWNED BY REAL DEAL STUDENTS OF HUNG GAR, MANTIS, TAI CHI, BAGUA AND THE REST. MONKEY BEAKS, MONKEYS WHO DO TIGER DIVES, AND IMPERFECT PERFECT STANCES.

THE INSTANT ANYONE INCLUDING MY OWN SIFU EVER TRIED TO USE THE WORDS MONKEY AND BEAK IN THE SAME SENTENCE I'D WALK OUT OF THE SCHOOL POINTING AND LAUGHING MY ASS OFF.

THIS IS WHAT SIN THE WANTED TO LEAVE AS HIS LEGACY? REALLY? LMAO

ALL YOU GUYS GET TOLD YOU ARE NOT DOING WHAT YOU ARE CLAIMING TO BE DOING...THE WHOLE MARTIAL ART COMMUNITY IS TELLING YOU, BUT YOU CULT MENTALITY HAS YOU TOO BLIND TO EVEN FACE THE TRUTH WHEN IT SOWS CHOYS YOU RIGHT UPSIDE YOUR THICK SKULLS.

[tattooedmonk]

multiple terms mashed into one...it may go more like this ...the MONKEY paws works similar to the preying mantis hooks or the cranes BEAKS...its like mixed metaphors. why continue to go on and on and on like a child that learned a new word or rhyme!?

:rolleyes::confused::eek::D:cool:

[hskwarrior]

shut your monkey beak having ass up!

look, i think i found the hairy monks cousin. see the resemblance?........

http://www.scaryforkids.com/pics/kappa-01.jpg

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/445taidjin.png

[tattooedmonk]

hsk avoided these questions but I'd like to see his response.he cant...look at the way he respomnds to everything,: bold capital letters with the same cr@p over and over...like a broken record.

[Drake]

He answered your questions.

It's just that your distorted view of reality males it impossible for you to digest the truth.

[Empty_Cup]

He answered your questions.

It's just that your distorted view of reality males it impossible for you to digest the truth.

The below is not answering the questions.


thieves don't deserve any answers. I'll tell you this much, i'd tell sin the right to his face that i know he or jake took our form and repackaged it.



...

...

[hskwarrior]

I'm done playing with these toys.

*** shakes head, walking away muttering...."monkey beaks".........."karate gi's"........................."stolen material".................."frauds"........"CULTS" "FAKE HAIRY MONKS"............."shaolin dookie."

i'm going back to the real gung fu world "shaolin dookie" doesn't exist.

LOOKING FORWARD TO THE DAY I COME ACROSS SOME SHAOLIN DOOKIE DOO TRYING TO PASS OFF OUR FORM HERE IN SAN FRANCISCO.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/404155_181795978624725_1187774670_n.jpg

[tattooedmonk]

I'm done playing with these toys.

*** shakes head, walking away muttering...."monkey beaks".........."karate gi's"........................."stolen material".................."frauds"........"CULTS" "FAKE HAIRY MONKS"............."shaolin dookie."

i'm going back to the real gung fu world "shaolin dookie" doesn't exist.

LOOKING FORWARD TO THE DAY I COME ACROSS SOME SHAOLIN DOOKIE DOO TRYING TO PASS OFF OUR FORM HERE IN SAN FRANCISCO.

this pretty much says it allhahahahis that a challenge?:confused::eek::rolleyes::D

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/73979_181315738672749_1602348069_n.jpg

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/223277_178106345660355_1111217173_n.jpg

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/228059_177608192376837_1153099337_n.jpg

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/196435_177590062378650_1547503693_n.jpg

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/199378_176491089155214_2147025591_n.jpg

[Syn7]

I say, that anyone who posted on the 1,000th page shall hereafter be inaugurated as a member of the "Thousandth Pager" Club


so, ummm...what do we do now?

I'm gonna go back and erase all my posts to put it back under a grand.!!!

[Syn7]

By then we will all be dead and gone HSK, up yours, u want respect earn it, You have no right to hate all just for one or 2 have done. Get a life. KC:):rolleyes::cool::D:(

Yeah but at least he doesn't have Stockholm syndrome and a sifu who admitted lying in court.

Your teacher has no honor, yet you protect his work anyways. What does that say about you?

[Syn7]

http://static.dangerousminds.net/uploads/images/Bruce_Lee.jpg

My ex tried to cave my head in with a cast iron frying pan once. Crazy b1tch! I'm lucky I'm quick and spry. She also Put a bottle of Grey Goose into the drywall about 3 inches from my head. Punk chicks ay!!! great in bed, crazy as fukc!!!

[Drake]

Monkey beak!

[Sima Rong]

Hey Drake, don't monkey beak the bazoongas! :D

[taai gihk yahn]

so wait - Frank, a lineage holder in Hung Sing CLF who has done a not insignificant amount of credible research on the system, ID's the form Milk Jake is doing as basically the one demo'd in DFW's book (based on certain earmarks - be they omissions or changes in moves / sequences), right?

and Jake was a former SD student, right?

and, some stylistic changes notwithstanding (Soard vs. Mullens vs. etc. "flavor") other SD guys do essentially the same form Jake is doing, right?

SKT has an established history of taking forms from books and passing it off as material that he learned from his teacher (who, ostensibly, learned it from the Chinese version of the Shaggy D.A.), right?

and yet TTM seems to be claiming that, with no evidence to the contrary (as far as I can tell) it's just as / more plausible that the version Jake and / or SD is doing comes from another source (that is, a lineage other than Frank's grand-master) than DFW's book, right?

really?!

REALLY?!

man, that SD Kool-Aide must be some powerful stuff...

[taai gihk yahn]

multiple terms mashed into one...it may go more like this ...the MONKEY paws works similar to the preying mantis hooks or the cranes BEAKS...its like mixed metaphors. why continue to go on and on and on like a child that learned a new word or rhyme!?

:rolleyes::confused::eek::D:cool:

oh c'mon, now u r just trolling;

you can't just conflate names because of similarities between the various animal hand shapes - mainly because the different shapes have different usage; even crane and mantis, though looking very much alike, function differently in application; conflating these things demonstrates only one thing: ignorance on the part of the person doing the conflating;

stop being such a blatant apologist for SD - or are you trying to get noticed and hired by the Catholic Church?

[Syn7]

oh c'mon, now u r just trolling;

you can't just conflate names because of similarities between the various animal hand shapes - mainly because the different shapes have different usage; even crane and mantis, though looking very much alike, function differently in application; conflating these things demonstrates only one thing: ignorance on the part of the person doing the conflating;

stop being such a blatant apologist for SD - or are you trying to get noticed and hired by the Catholic Church?

So does that mean my erotic spear form is bullsh1t?

[Syn7]

lol... I never did it. But I'm at 986 too. I'm sure it's a mod fukcing with us or some other cat took my idea. Either somebody erased posts or the thread was split up.

I prolly have at least 5 pages of posts. All the same thing. "what? you're crazy? why defend a liar?"

[taai gihk yahn]

So does that mean my erotic spear form is bullsh1t?

if it's not Ameri-Do-Te (http://www.youtube.com/user/EnterTheDojoShow), it's ALL bullsh1t...

[Judge Pen]

Given the discussion about the roundhouse kick on the main board, which is one of the better threads I've seen on here recently, do you think the presence of that kick in our forms supports the possibility that those forms were created by Sin The? The kick appears in both the short kata and the sparring techniques. It's in flying tiger comes out of the cave and in golden mountain tiger. What do you think?

I wanted to bump this to the top. Hadn't spent much forum time lately to read that particular thread, but I wondered that myself. Let me put some thougth into a more thorough response, but my knee jerk reaction is that it's either (1) Evidence of fabrication; or (2) at the least evidence of modification. I'm going to have an opportunity today to review a lot of my SD videos (and a few of the non-SD forms I've learned along the way) with a good friend and kung fu brother who has studied a more variety of styles than I have and who left SD before I quit training. I'll be sure to talk about this with him as well, but Sean can post his own thoughts on the subject.;)

[pazman]

http://clinicallyhappy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/johnny-3-300x245.jpg

I'm a bit mad now.

[tattooedmonk]

oh c'mon, now u r just trolling;

you can't just conflate names because of similarities between the various animal hand shapes - mainly because the different shapes have different usage; even crane and mantis, though looking very much alike, function differently in application; conflating these things demonstrates only one thing: ignorance on the part of the person doing the conflating;

stop being such a blatant apologist for SD - or are you trying to get noticed and hired by the Catholic Church?They have similar and different uses. :cool:

Stop your trolling....:D

anyone that has eyes, hands and a brain can see the similarities and the differences.

I am very well aware of the d usages...you are just putting a spin on it to make it sound like i said something wrong or incorrect, when I didnt.....:rolleyes:

boyfirend got you sleeping on the couch again, no lovin?:confused::rolleyes::eek:

[Drake]

They have similar and different uses. :cool:

Stop your trolling....:D

anyone that has eyes, hands and a brain can see the similarities and the differences.

I am very well aware of the d usages...you are just putting a spin on it to make it sound like i said something wrong or incorrect, when I didnt.....:rolleyes:

boyfirend got you sleeping on the couch again, no lovin?:confused::rolleyes::eek:

It did make you sound like a moron.

[tattooedmonk]

It did make you sound like a moron.really, how so? or are you just trolling again?:rolleyes:

[Drake]

really, how so? or are you just trolling again?:rolleyes:


I'd rather be a troll than someone who steals people's styles, and can't even do that right.

[tattooedmonk]

I'd rather be a troll than someone who steals people's styles, and can't even do that right.so, I stole peoples styles and didn't even do it right? wow, that has got to be the most intelligent thing I have ever heard.:rolleyes:

Really and where did I steal these things from? and how did I not even do that right?

facts / proof would be great......holy sh!t , I think I need an attorney.:rolleyes::eek::D

[Drake]

so, I stole peoples styles and didn't even do it right? wow, that has got to be the most intelligent thing I have ever heard.:rolleyes:

Really and where did I steal these things from? and how did I not even do that right?

facts / proof would be great......holy sh!t , I think I need an attorney.:rolleyes::eek::D

Semantics. As far as I know, you are just some fat dude trying to support a thief for fun.

You don't need an attorney. You need a psychologist.

[hskwarrior]

i'm starting to think TTM is actually jake the fake. jake is so fake....(how fake is he?) he's so fake that he feels he can learn kung fu from the earth. he neesd no teachers, not lineage. nothing to be proud of but his own self worth. he's a fackin poser.

all that matters to me now is that more and more people are aware of the shaolin do frauds. with sexual assault charges, lies, and fake kung fu.....i would never send my kids to them.

[Drake]

i'm starting to think TTM is actually jake the fake. jake is so fake....(how fake is he?) he's so fake that he feels he can learn kung fu from the earth. he neesd no teachers, not lineage. nothing to be proud of but his own self worth. he's a fackin poser.

all that matters to me now is that more and more people are aware of the shaolin do frauds. with sexual assault charges, lies, and fake kung fu.....i would never send my kids to them.

Wait... they've been charged with sexual assault too?


CREEPOZ!

[hskwarrior]

David Soard Pleads Guilty to Harrasment Chinese Shaolin Center/ Shaolin-Do

In recent news of the CSC faction:
Elder Master David Soard of Boulder, CO, was tried for charges of unwanted sexual contact on Jan. 28 and Jan. 29, 2009 in Colorado Springs, CO. case # 07M10204. The original police report filed is CSPD 0733976.

This was not an isolated allegation, and though there were several testimonies on file with the prosecutor the judge did not allow additional testimony.

Unfortunately, he was found not guilty.

Read more at http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=90641&page=1#Aoblg8u0f1Sh3FQ8.99

[Drake]

Bunch of monsters.

A bunch of monsters that whine like babies when called out.

[hskwarrior]

A bunch of monsters that whine like babies when called out.
agreed. TTM is definitely the biggest whiner so far

[tattooedmonk]

agreed. TTM is definitely the biggest whiner so faractually , that goes to you.. I am just trying to have a conversation with you about yor super secret kung fu form, but you cant even do that.:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Bunch of monsters.

A bunch of monsters that whine like babies when called out.calling me out? on what?? hahahaha

[Syn7]

so, I stole peoples styles and didn't even do it right? wow, that has got to be the most intelligent thing I have ever heard.:rolleyes:

Really and where did I steal these things from? and how did I not even do that right?

facts / proof would be great......holy sh!t , I think I need an attorney.:rolleyes::eek::D

Your teacher and your system have no honor. Anyone who defends the teacher or the style has questionable honor.

The only answers I have seen that are acceptable are the ones that say "Unfortunately my system is full of retards and has no honor. I will take the lessons that were effective and leave the rest behind."

It's not your fault you were lied to. But everything after the lies came out is on you. Personally, I feel people should have seen through it without a court transcript, but not everyone knows what TCMAs look like and I suppose you people are more victim than perp. But that changed after the truths started flowing out. And they are very simple truths. Sin The is a liar and therefore everything he cannot prove beyond a shadow of doubt is suspect to the highest degree.


How many of you guys sticking up for shaolin do are still actually putting money in Sin Thes pockets? How many are just former students that still feel some loyalty to the system if not the GM?


You don't need an attorney, just some common sense and respect for your reality.

[taai gihk yahn]

They have similar and different uses. :cool:

Stop your trolling....:D

anyone that has eyes, hands and a brain can see the similarities and the differences.

I am very well aware of the d usages...you are just putting a spin on it to make it sound like i said something wrong or incorrect, when I didnt.....:rolleyes:


please, save your lame attempts at redirection and lateralization for someone else;

you were making an argument in support of Jake's conflation of the terms for various animal hand formations, as if that were an acceptable practice, and as a way of supporting your polemic against Frank's perspective; your take on it was that it was not a big deal, and that the usage thereof didn't speak to Jake's credibility;

I am pointing out that this is not an acceptable practice, and speaks to Jake's lack of understanding in general; it's not something to "get over", it is in fact a key indicator of the ersatz nature of his practice;


boyfirend got you sleeping on the couch again, no lovin?:confused::rolleyes::eek:
so, somehow the implication that I am a) gay and b) being forced to sleep on the couch by my alleged live-in male lover is relevant to this discourse how? are u suggesting that I am over reacting, "why so serious" and all that? i strikes me as a rather immature attempt to portray me as uptight; why are you attempting to do this, when it is clearly not the case? I'm simply pointing out why I believe that you are in error; does that warrant childish insults?
if you want to have an adult discussion, that's fine; if you are just going to take cheap shots followed with a barrage of emoticons as post hoc commentary, save it;

[Syn7]

David Soard Pleads Guilty to Harrasment Chinese Shaolin Center/ Shaolin-Do

In recent news of the CSC faction:
Elder Master David Soard of Boulder, CO, was tried for charges of unwanted sexual contact on Jan. 28 and Jan. 29, 2009 in Colorado Springs, CO. case # 07M10204. The original police report filed is CSPD 0733976.

This was not an isolated allegation, and though there were several testimonies on file with the prosecutor the judge did not allow additional testimony.

Unfortunately, he was found not guilty.

Read more at http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=90641&page=1#Aoblg8u0f1Sh3FQ8.99

How can he plead guilty then be found not guilty? Or was it a plea bargain? Or was the harassment a separate incident?

Doesn't that David guy teach with his wife or something? She stick up for him?

It's funny, coz of all the people spoken about, people seemed to speak most highly of these two Soards.

[Syn7]

calling me out? on what?? hahahaha

Answer the questions put to you or admit the obvious. You defend a weak style with a fraudulent GM.

Anything else is bullsh1t.

[PalmStriker]

I think that's the face that's getting ready for the jumping crane kick to the chops, I mean, nose. :D

[pazman]

I think that's the face that's getting ready for the jumping crane kick to the chops, I mean, nose. :D

And yet, getting kicked in the nose by a crane kick would be more honorable than defending Sin The. :D:D

[tattooedmonk]

Your teacher and your system have no honor. Anyone who defends the teacher or the style has questionable honor.

The only answers I have seen that are acceptable are the ones that say "Unfortunately my system is full of retards and has no honor. I will take the lessons that were effective and leave the rest behind."

It's not your fault you were lied to. But everything after the lies came out is on you. Personally, I feel people should have seen through it without a court transcript, but not everyone knows what TCMAs look like and I suppose you people are more victim than perp. But that changed after the truths started flowing out. And they are very simple truths. Sin The is a liar and therefore everything he cannot prove beyond a shadow of doubt is suspect to the highest degree.


How many of you guys sticking up for shaolin do are still actually putting money in Sin Thes pockets? How many are just former students that still feel some loyalty to the system if not the GM?


You don't need an attorney, just some common sense and respect for your reality.funny .

I will defend anyone or anything that is an underdog, judged, criticized and condemed without having all the factspresented against them...

you are being ignorant , shallow and narrow minded . all you know is what you have off the net... if anything else

everything you say is based on opinion and very few facts.

you obviously were bullied , put down , criticized, and judged all your life without any means of defense or recourse ...

so now you are an internet warrior who talks cr@p here , but cant do it in person or back it up in anyway.

you are a troll as far as I am concerned, sad and pathetic.

words , just words. whatever.

[tattooedmonk]

please, save your lame attempts at redirection and lateralization for someone else;

you were making an argument in support of Jake's conflation of the terms for various animal hand formations, as if that were an acceptable practice, and as a way of supporting your polemic against Frank's perspective; your take on it was that it was not a big deal, and that the usage thereof didn't speak to Jake's credibility;

I am pointing out that this is not an acceptable practice, and speaks to Jake's lack of understanding in general; it's not something to "get over", it is in fact a key indicator of the ersatz nature of his practice;


so, somehow the implication that I am a) gay and b) being forced to sleep on the couch by my alleged live-in male lover is relevant to this discourse how? are u suggesting that I am over reacting, "why so serious" and all that? i strikes me as a rather immature attempt to portray me as uptight; why are you attempting to do this, when it is clearly not the case? I'm simply pointing out why I believe that you are in error; does that warrant childish insults?
if you want to have an adult discussion, that's fine; if you are just going to take cheap shots followed with a barrage of emoticons as post hoc commentary, save it;assumption and twisted ideas , conveluted in your mind.

[taai gihk yahn]

assumption and twisted ideas , conveluted in your mind.
you know this is not the case, u r simply trying to side-step: please show what exactly am I assuming, what am I twisting and how it is convoluted in my mind?

better yet, please offer a straightforward answer to the series of questions I posted earlier: in a nutshell, as opposed to the highly likely scenario of Jake's form being derived from the DFW book, where else do you believe that his version of the form originated?

[bawang]

he can accept the mixture of feces and urine known as shaolin do because he doesnt care about martial arts and asian culture. shaolin do doesnt seem strange to him because asian culture is irreleveant to him. its all a joke to him. they wear gis because the japanese are the "good asians".
what is important is his bizzare dojo "family".


he doesnt care about the martial arts. he was happy there. shaolin do members repeatedly stated their time spent at shaolin do made them feel good and that is all that matters.

this is also what separates men from beasts. men understand reason, beasts only follow their feelings.

[Syn7]

funny .

I will defend anyone or anything that is an underdog, judged, criticized and condemed without having all the factspresented against them...

you are being ignorant , shallow and narrow minded . all you know is what you have off the net... if anything else

everything you say is based on opinion and very few facts.

you obviously were bullied , put down , criticized, and judged all your life without any means of defense or recourse ...

so now you are an internet warrior who talks cr@p here , but cant do it in person or back it up in anyway.

you are a troll as far as I am concerned, sad and pathetic.

words , just words. whatever.

So then you aren't going to answer any questions put to you? You knock people for doing exactly what you're doing. Not the mark of an intelligent person.

Funny how you accuse me of making assumptions and then go on make a ton of your own.

Your lack of intelligence shines through in your inability to defend yourself and rationally answer legit critique of your style and your teacher. It's not my fault you paid a fraud money to learn a joke of a style.

You still pay him money, don't you.... just admit it. You're still a card carrying member because you can't accept the truth.

So Sin The did not admit to lying in court? Or is it all just a misunderstanding :rolleyes:

Wash the sand out of your vijayjay and keep it real, son. Your attitude and reaction to criticism says more than any of your posts ever could.

Anyone with half a brain would see the fault in picking fights with people you don't know and have never seen. I suspect you are the one who acts differently online.

I don't want to fight some internet nobody, I wanna debate the merit of your style and the arguments used to justify your ignorance. Bring it or p1ss off. You can keep your threats to yourself. Man up and present an argument. Or would you rather the thread be locked again because of your sh1tty attitude? Maybe that would be the easiest way out for such an evolutionary cul de sac.

[bawang]

You still pay him money, don't you.... just admit it. You're still a card carrying member because you can't accept the truth.



they accept the truth. they just dont care. because its all greek to me. ching chong hoochi goochi.

[Syn7]

shaolin do members repeatedly stated their time spent at shaolin do made them feel good and that is all that matters.

Maybe they just like being groped. Er, I mean, "harassed"!

[tattooedmonk]

you know this is not the case, u r simply trying to side-step: please show what exactly am I assuming, what am I twisting and how it is convoluted in my mind?

better yet, please offer a straightforward answer to the series of questions I posted earlier: in a nutshell, as opposed to the highly likely scenario of Jake's form being derived from the DFW book, where else do you believe that his version of the form originated?I don't know and I dont care where he got it from. I dont particularly like Jakes performance. It doesn't have the right flavor, it doesn't mean he got it from a book. He might have used it for reference.

[tattooedmonk]

Maybe they just like being groped. Er, I mean, "harassed"! I am part of the one percent group that can make anything work. I know that most people aren't like all of you and do Martial arts for many other reasons. They shouldn't be viewed as being less than just because they don't value the same things you do. Their experiences and reasons for doing it are different. I am sure they are better people and better prepared to defend themselves than most, no matter what the doubts are about the lineage , authenticity of the material , etc. grow up , get a life, and get off your high horse. Maybe go hide out with your super secret kung fu underground buddies some place and leave good people alone.

[bawang]

. They shouldn't be viewed as being less than just because they don't value the same things you do.

honor, integrity, honesty, manliness.

[Syn7]

I am part of the one percent group that can make anything work. I know that most people aren't like all of you and do Martial arts for many other reasons. They shouldn't be viewed as being less than just because they don't value the same things you do. Their experiences and reasons for doing it are different. I am sure they are better people and better prepared to defend themselves than most, no matter what the doubts are about the lineage , authenticity of the material , etc. grow up , get a life, and get off your high horse. Maybe go hide out with your super secret kung fu underground buddies some place and leave good people alone.

There ya go. Now you are using your brain and not being as emotional. Still a lil sand in that vijayjay but at least you've been douching.

I don't do secret kung fu. Anyone can learn what I learn. It's even pretty cheap cause sifu is wealthy and doesn't need the money. A nominal fee to cover base costs and then he pays for the rest. He runs at a loss. Sifu wants to help people, nothing more nothing less. He can't walk thru Chinatown without being stopped by the locals to show respect and say hi.

I don't doubt that there are some cats in SD that can bang. And I'm sure it's better than NOTHING. But that really isn't saying much.

Why not give your money to somebody who has decent technique and never lied to you? Somebody who doesn't get forced into court and somebody who's disciples aren't accused of sexual interference. It all adds up. Your GM has no honor and he lied to you. Move on. Take the good, leave the bad and never look back. find a school that is WORTHY of your respect. People who lied to you are not worthy, regardless of the effectiveness of the system. You can have your cake and eat it too, u just gotta drop the Stockholm act!

Now how bout you address some of the many questions put to you that you have been side stepping.



No secrets here, just hard work and a Sifu I respect on every level. As a teacher and as a man.

http://www.bakmei.ca/main.html

[Syn7]

honor, integrity, honesty, manliness.

I guess some folks just don't see merit in these attributes. To me, when assessing a teacher of any kind, integrity is paramount.

[hskwarrior]

actually , that goes to you.. I am just trying to have a conversation with you about yor super secret kung fu form, but you cant even do that.

you have no honor and i view you just the same i do Sin The. weak frauds.


I don't know and I dont care where he got it from. I dont particularly like Jakes performance. It doesn't have the right flavor, it doesn't mean he got it from a book. He might have used it for reference.

sneaky feeling jake has better kung fakefu than you. i'd put money on it.


get a life, and get off your high horse. Maybe go hide out with your super secret kung fu underground buddies some place and leave good people alone.

good people don't steal from other good people. weak wannabe's.

secret kung fu. what a fukkin joke. TTM is just mad he can't get free training. free lessons. so he acts like an ass hurt little girl. he wants to discuss a form his lineage stole because they don't know the ins and outs of the 5 animal form. doc fai wong left out the most important aspect of this form on purpose. they don't even have the correct name of our form either.

frauds. liars. bad martial arts. stolen material with minimal knowledge of the real deal so they make up new lyrics.

and the funniest part of it all is everyone in shaolin do is pure karate and don't even know. they are clueless. everyone else knows this, but these cult members are blinded by flowery words spewed by some indonsian guy who knew he can pull one over on unsuspecting white and black people who wouldn't know real kung fu even if they got their asses kicked by bruce lee himself.

if i was wrong about the KARATE then why does so many other people i've never met say the very same things i do?

a duck that meows like a cat is still a fukkin duck.

[Syn7]

I bet that out of all of us that critique SD, none of us pay as much for lessons.

60 a month over here. But if you can't afford it, I'm sure he would let it slide. We want to pay. After class he'll take us all to dinner and we always get red envelopes when we demo. We're s'posed to pay for the shirts and hats, he just gave it to me. I tried to pay, he wasn't having it. I can't go these days coz work has taken me out of the city for a bit, but when I get back I'll mos def be heading back to class.

[Drake]

If he says " I learn from the Earth" but then steals from DFW's videos isn't a red flag, I don;t know what is.

[kwaichang]

You should change your name to Sin 7, ur a ****, FU man FU. I defend no one I am who I am do not question my honor . KC

[kwaichang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFlQNtL8F9s
Click and listen KC

[Drake]

You should change your name to Sin 7, ur a ****, FU man FU. I defend no one I am who I am do not question my honor . KC

"I'm not questioning your honor, I'm denying its existence." `Tyrion Lannister, Game of Thrones

[tattooedmonk]

honor, integrity, honesty, manliness.so you are saying that no one that practices teaches or is associated with the system doesn't have or value these things!? If you are, that's just retarded.:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

I guess some folks just don't see merit in these attributes. To me, when assessing a teacher of any kind, integrity is paramount.onc again, are you saying all the thousands of practitioners and teachers of this system lack these things?! How the fcuk would you know?!

[tattooedmonk]

you have no honor and i view you just the same i do Sin The. weak frauds.



sneaky feeling jake has better kung fakefu than you. i'd put money on it.



good people don't steal from other good people. weak wannabe's.

secret kung fu. what a fukkin joke. TTM is just mad he can't get free training. free lessons. so he acts like an ass hurt little girl. he wants to discuss a form his lineage stole because they don't know the ins and outs of the 5 animal form. doc fai wong left out the most important aspect of this form on purpose. they don't even have the correct name of our form either.

frauds. liars. bad martial arts. stolen material with minimal knowledge of the real deal so they make up new lyrics.

and the funniest part of it all is everyone in shaolin do is pure karate and don't even know. they are clueless. everyone else knows this, but these cult members are blinded by flowery words spewed by some indonsian guy who knew he can pull one over on unsuspecting white and black people who wouldn't know real kung fu even if they got their asses kicked by bruce lee himself.

if i was wrong about the KARATE then why does so many other people i've never met say the very same things i do?

a duck that meows like a cat is still a fukkin duck.my issue is this, you can't have a constructive conversation about Kung fu with out acting like an @$$. This routine that you and half a dozen guys here having going is old. Why can't you grow up and talk about things that really matter!?

[tattooedmonk]

he can accept the mixture of feces and urine known as shaolin do because he doesnt care about martial arts and asian culture. shaolin do doesnt seem strange to him because asian culture is irreleveant to him. its all a joke to him. they wear gis because the japanese are the "good asians".
what is important is his bizzare dojo "family".


he doesnt care about the martial arts. he was happy there. shaolin do members repeatedly stated their time spent at shaolin do made them feel good and that is all that matters.

this is also what separates men from beasts. men understand reason, beasts only follow their feelings.

Once again blanket statements based on other people's opinions without any facts.:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

"I'm not questioning your honor, I'm denying its existence." `Tyrion Lannister, Game of Thrones
How can you, you don't even know him or any of us!? You obviously have no honor.

[tattooedmonk]

Just because you 3 or 4 retards keep saying the same ah!t over and over doesn't make it true. The only people that care if that are you 3-4. It totally doesn't after in the real world , only in your sad and pathetic ones .

[Drake]

Just because you 3 or 4 retards keep saying the same ah!t over and over doesn't make it true. The only people that care if that are you 3-4. It totally doesn't after in the real world , only in your sad and pathetic ones .

Oh, there's more than 3 or 4...

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
Just because you 3 or 4 retards keep saying the same ah!t over and over doesn't make it true. The only people that care if that are you 3-4. It totally doesn't after in the real world , only in your sad and pathetic ones .

this **** is totally insane. you're the only one who is retarded here. hanging on to some false hope that maybe although SIN THE OUTRIGHT LIED and proven in court that he lied, you are hoping and praying he truly learned the shaolin animal form from the hairy wannabe monk circus attraction. you're hanging on so tightly to false hope that you're blinded 3 times over from seeing the truth.

even if doc fai wong himself came out and said Sin The is passing off his book version of our 5 animal form i know you wouldn't believe it. he could have invented that form and you'd still tell people it was a shaolin do form. idiot.

as long as the majority of the people on this forum knows the truth, i'm satisfied with that. the original thread on shaolin do questioned its authenticity. i didn't start that thread. in fact, i purposely stayed away from that thread because shaolin do is indeed a fraud. the moment i saw "DO" in their name, red flags went up.....fraud sign lit up. so i stayed away till i discovered your lineages act of thievery.

just take a look at jake the fakes video's of tai chi, mantis, bagua and whatever and all the people who actually study those styles keep telling him that he isn't performing what he claims to be doing. everyone aside from me can see the karate in shaolin do. its everyone in SHAOLIN DO that doesn't see the truth. some seem to have better vision now, but you, you are stuck on stupid.

stupid looks pretty good on you. you and stupidity are best friends.

http://www.kgbclothing.co.uk/images/designCanvas/designCanvasStupid.jpg

http://deeplysimplisticthinking.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/stupid1.jpg

[tattooedmonk]

I have said many things, but I never said any of these . You are argueing different points than the ones I am making. All of your responses are borderline bi polar , schizophrenic and out right insane , not failing to mention ignorant and stupid. There is more to all of this than what you know. Very few people say anything, when and if they do it's only as a keyboard warrior. Saying things here means nothing. Words....just words. Your words mean nothing to anyone other than the few who come to this forum or run in your circles.:rolleyes: whatever. :D:cool:

[hskwarrior]

I have said many things, but I never said any of these . You are argueing different points than the ones I am making. All of your responses are borderline bi polar , schizophrenic and out right insane , not failing to mention ignorant and stupid. There is more to all of this than what you know. Very few people say anything, when and if they do it's only as a keyboard warrior. Saying things here means nothing. Words....just words. Your words mean nothing to anyone other than the few who come to this forum or run in your circles. whatever.

blah blah blah. you're just sad you can't get anything out of me. you're too poosey to post a video of what you think you know. anonymity is your safeplace. LOL

TTM your new name is JIM JONES. i will no longer refer to you as TTM. JIM JONES.

[kwaichang]

The name for a male duck, are you Syn 7 then why do you respond. Fu2 KC:)

[Judge Pen]

Though I don't always agree with the way Frank goes about saying things I have to think that he is correct about the history of this form and how SD acquired it. This weekend I compared DFW's video to the one my teacher gave me after I learned the form. The gross movements are the same, but it's played differently. The names of the techniques are the same, but the transitions on how they get from one to the other is substantially different. With everything that we know about SD and Sin The's willingess to tell lies (either under oath at a deposition or to his own students) then I think that although it's possible that 5AF found it's way to indonesia indepenantly, I think it is most probable that it was learned from a book. This would explain why the postures are similar, but the transitions and actual movements vary wildly. Also, our 5AF has a round-house kick in it, and there's a real debate avoer the inclusion of round-house kicks in "traditional" shaolin forms.

[taai gihk yahn]

Though I don't always agree with the way Frank goes about saying things I have to think that he is correct about the history of this form and how SD acquired it. This weekend I compared DFW's video to the one my teacher gave me after I learned the form. The gross movements are the same, but it's played differently. The names of the techniques are the same, but the transitions on how they get from one to the other is substantially different. With everything that we know about SD and Sin The's willingess to tell lies (either under oath at a deposition or to his own students) then I think that although it's possible that 5AF found it's way to indonesia indepenantly, I think it is most probable that it was learned from a book. This would explain why the postures are similar, but the transitions and actual movements vary wildly. Also, our 5AF has a round-house kick in it, and there's a real debate avoer the inclusion of round-house kicks in "traditional" shaolin forms.

I think that this is the main point, which, for some reason, TTM seems to be contesting; while it is possible, it seems highly improbable; the evidence against it having come from a difference source includes:
1) Frank's assessment of the form and IDng of certain elements which mark the form as being an altered version from the form he knows; meaning that any form that looks like the DFW form (regardless of how it's played) can't possibly be from another source, bec. DFW's form is a deliberate alteration of the original
2) Sin The's obvious propensity for taking things from various sources and playing them off to a (back then) unsuspecting crowd of SD's - remember, even 10 yrs ago, it was much easier to get away with this sort of thing than it is now - go back 15, 20 yrs, and u cud wholesale rip off something and pass it off as ur own and no one would ever b the wiser;
3) The intrinsic ridiculousness of Sin The's lineage story, and the fact that for some reason there is no independent verification of that lineage outside of SD further destroys any credibility
4) the elaborate, convoluted explanations that SD supporters have to go through to substantiate their claims whenever they are challenged - it's like, in SD, the norm is the exception;

again, while it may b possible SD got this form "legitimately", the extant evidence strongly suggests that Sin The lifted the form from DFW's book at a time when most SD'rs probably had never even heard of DFW or CLF;

of course, if TTM just posts a vid of the opening of the form as he knows it, that wud certainly b of some help determining if it's the DFW version or another one...

[hskwarrior]

of course, if TTM just posts a vid of the opening of the form as he knows it, that wud certainly b of some help determining if it's the DFW version or another one...

we all know for a fact that JIM JONES won't put up a video because not only would it identify him, it would also show his level of skill in regards to this form. he can't produce it. too scared to.

[Syn7]

onc again, are you saying all the thousands of practitioners and teachers of this system lack these things?! How the fcuk would you know?!

UUMMMM no!
If I wanted to say "all the thousands of practitioners and teachers of this system lack these things" I would have said.... oh I dunno.... something like "all the thousands of practitioners and teachers of this system lack these things".

What I did say was "Your GM has no honor or integrity."

You need to start sorting out who said what to you. You are attributing all the criticisms to all of those making criticisms. That's some mental midget sh1t. Sort it out!

At this point you are choosing to side with somebody who lied to you to get your money. If you have another reason why SKT would lie like that and then only admit it when forced to, I will listen.

I see red flags all over SD, You have dozens of independent people with varying knowledge of TCMA, yet you still won't concede anything. NADA! That's another red flag. We don't know eachother, none of us are friends, yet we all say the same thing. Another HUGE red flag. Wake up....!!!

Like I said before, I'm sure there are guys that can fight from SD, and I know there are cats taking authentic TCMA styles that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. But why buy an overpriced pellet gun if you can get a AR-15 for half the price? Then atleast you increase the potential for the effort put in. Learning from SD is simply a less efficient way to learn. Your GM lied to you for money, it's probably more expensive than most TCMA schools, some of the teachers are accused sexual predators, the techniques are just taken from wherever and mishmashed together. I can go on, but surely that is enough, is it not?

[pazman]

Wut's your favorite Shaolin Do Kata?

[Empty_Cup]

... This weekend I compared DFW's video to the one my teacher gave me after I learned the form. The gross movements are the same, but it's played differently. The names of the techniques are the same, but the transitions on how they get from one to the other is substantially different. ...

It's odd that you and TTM have different lyrics to the set...he has said the names of the techniques are much different from DFW's lyrics.

@TTM: Sent you a PM

[hskwarrior]

but surely that is enough, is it not?

JIM JONES will always be a cult drone.

[hskwarrior]

It's odd that you and TTM have different lyrics to the set...he has said the names of the techniques are much different from DFW's lyrics.

is it really odd? i mean check this scenario.

" i just bought dfw's shaolin five animal book. i really like this form. i want to even teach this form. but in order to try and disguise the fact i learned it from the book i will change only a few names of the moves, i'll rearrange a move here and there. no one in my school will ever know what i did."

how about we forget lyrics and just focus on the fukkin meat and potato's of the form. the exact same opening (done horribly and without knowledge of why), section by section the form is copied from the book. its really useless trying to find some loop hole you can attach to shaolin do.

shaolin do has no roots except indonesia. nothing in shaolin in the least. face up to it. open your eyes. listen to the rest of the martial art community. there's no reason for anyone to dislike your style aside from the fact you falsely claim it to have a shaolin connection.

how can you have so many pieces of so many styles and get it wrong? why don't you guys listen to the people who know more than? even still, a clear attempt at comparison will prove the fact.

this is no conspiracy against shaolin do. its the truth.

[Syn7]

Though I don't always agree with the way Frank goes about saying things I have to think that he is correct about the history of this form and how SD acquired it. This weekend I compared DFW's video to the one my teacher gave me after I learned the form. The gross movements are the same, but it's played differently. The names of the techniques are the same, but the transitions on how they get from one to the other is substantially different. With everything that we know about SD and Sin The's willingess to tell lies (either under oath at a deposition or to his own students) then I think that although it's possible that 5AF found it's way to indonesia indepenantly, I think it is most probable that it was learned from a book. This would explain why the postures are similar, but the transitions and actual movements vary wildly. Also, our 5AF has a round-house kick in it, and there's a real debate avoer the inclusion of round-house kicks in "traditional" shaolin forms.

Does any of your money end up in SKT's pockets anymore? Do you continue to pay dues? Who is your Sifu?

I respect that you are willing to admit what others will not. We can be friends:p lol

[Syn7]

You should change your name to Sin 7, ur a ****, FU man FU. I defend no one I am who I am do not question my honor . KC

I just did. Show me I'm wrong and I will concede. Simple. I QUESTION your honor, but I'm str8 up sayin' SKT has none. I'm still up in the air about yours. Your inability to answer simple questions isn't helping tho. A man who defends another who has no honor tarnishes his own honor. That's on you son, not me.

LOL, As for your lil spazz moment. Shiiiiit, b1tch please. :rolleyes:

You callin me a sinner? If you're gonna flip on my name, try to be at least a lil bit creative. Too easy. BTW, my name has nothing to do with the 7 deadly sins.


I wish everyone was that easy. Aye Drake!!! ;) :p :D


And yes, I am a sinner. Who isn't....???

[Syn7]

The name for a male duck, are you Syn 7 then why do you respond. Fu2 KC:)

He isn't comming to my defence. Me and Drake argue over tons of sh1t. We just agree on this, and you.

[kwaichang]

I voted to close this thread, B read my old post from what I feel SD is , Then decide, , and C as you Judge so shall you be Judged. KC:D

[Old Noob]

I wanted to bump this to the top. Hadn't spent much forum time lately to read that particular thread, but I wondered that myself. Let me put some thougth into a more thorough response, but my knee jerk reaction is that it's either (1) Evidence of fabrication; or (2) at the least evidence of modification. I'm going to have an opportunity today to review a lot of my SD videos (and a few of the non-SD forms I've learned along the way) with a good friend and kung fu brother who has studied a more variety of styles than I have and who left SD before I quit training. I'll be sure to talk about this with him as well, but Sean can post his own thoughts on the subject.;)

I'll be interested to hear your obserations. At the end of the day the deposition is a morass and so its easy to construe what he said to mean that he made up almost all of the material to 1st black. Though its just as easily construed to mean that he made up the short forms and the sparring techniques and that's it. The cranes and the birds are lower belt material but don't contain any round kicks. Also, Haing The uses those forms in his curriculum and is, if I remember correctly, a bird expert??? Consequently, it seems less likely that those forms were made up by Sin The (though they could have been created by Master Ie). Anyway, I'm rambling but I'll be curious to hear your thoughts.

[Empty_Cup]

I'll be interested to hear your obserations. At the end of the day the deposition is a morass and so its easy to construe what he said to mean that he made up almost all of the material to 1st black. Though its just as easily construed to mean that he made up the short forms and the sparring techniques and that's it. The cranes and the birds are lower belt material but don't contain any round kicks. Also, Haing The uses those forms in his curriculum and is, if I remember correctly, a bird expert??? Consequently, it seems less likely that those forms were made up by Sin The (though they could have been created by Master Ie). Anyway, I'm rambling but I'll be curious to hear your thoughts.

ON, did you get my PM?

[Old Noob]

UUMMMM no!
If I wanted to say "all the thousands of practitioners and teachers of this system lack these things" I would have said.... oh I dunno.... something like "all the thousands of practitioners and teachers of this system lack these things".

What I did say was "Your GM has no honor or integrity."

You need to start sorting out who said what to you. You are attributing all the criticisms to all of those making criticisms. That's some mental midget sh1t. Sort it out!

At this point you are choosing to side with somebody who lied to you to get your money. If you have another reason why SKT would lie like that and then only admit it when forced to, I will listen.

I see red flags all over SD, You have dozens of independent people with varying knowledge of TCMA, yet you still won't concede anything. NADA! That's another red flag. We don't know eachother, none of us are friends, yet we all say the same thing. Another HUGE red flag. Wake up....!!!

Like I said before, I'm sure there are guys that can fight from SD, and I know there are cats taking authentic TCMA styles that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. But why buy an overpriced pellet gun if you can get a AR-15 for half the price? Then atleast you increase the potential for the effort put in. Learning from SD is simply a less efficient way to learn. Your GM lied to you for money, it's probably more expensive than most TCMA schools, some of the teachers are accused sexual predators, the techniques are just taken from wherever and mishmashed together. I can go on, but surely that is enough, is it not?

Most of your points are good but some of your assumptions are a little off. While I don't think any of these points undercut your bottom line, they might as well be corrected.

My understanding is that SD is almost always in the competitive range with regard to cost in the given areas where it is taught and that, often, it is on the lower end of the cost range. That is certainly true in the DC area where I train. The only martial arts schools that charge a lower tuition than the SD school here are Judo clubs, which have a history of being very reasonably prices compared to other arts.

The rest of my observations are contstrained to what's available in the DC area because I just haven't had the opportunity to observe the range of other schools in other regions.

As for efficiency of training, I have to take some issue with that too becuase I'm not sure that you're getting the AR15 with the TCMA. It really depends on the trianing goals of the individual. If fighting is the answer, I would say that the only gyms in my area that are more efficient than mine are the pure MMA gyms. I don't think any of the traditional Chinese, Korean, or Japaneses schools in my area are focused enough on high intensity training to produce effective fighters. The traditionalists in my area may have good stances and may even throw a good punch or kick but, based on the classes I've watched throughout the area, most would be so winded 1 minute into a match that they'd be done if they hadn't won by then. The grappling gyms are good but, without any stand-up training, I'd say they're more sport-centric than they are combat effective (mostly because of the whole its-bad-to-go-to-the-ground-in-a-bar thing).

If its forms and being good at forms, you've got a legitmate point. Not only are the SD forms from a suspect source but there are so many of them taught so quickly that its difficult for the average student to do any of them without looking bad and demonstrating relatively poor technique. So, if being good at forms is what you're looking for, I have to agree that SD is not the most efficient way to go about that even if you eventually can do the SD material with appropriate mechanics etc.

General fitness: the SD school in my area compares more to the MMA gyms cardio output versus the more traditional schools. Workouts in my qwoon are some of the hardest I've experienced since I wrestled in school and, frankly, are only less hard because our classes are either an hour or and hour and a half long (wrestling practice was three hours a pop, five days a week).

Anyway, as I said, none of this undercuts your bottom line.

As I type this, I do still attend an SD school. I do this becuase we are geographically isolated from most of the system (there's not another SD school within five hours of us) and, consequently, we can avoid much of the cultish stuff associated with some of the other schools (my belief is that the Soards' group has generated much of the fodder for the cult accusers). My sifu is an abo****ely solid guys and has never knowingly lied to me. He's a tremendous athlete and a tremendous martial artist. I've only met Sin The twice and have not given him any money. I've been pretty insular within the system and, consequently, am happy with the training I've received.

[Old Noob]

ON, did you get my PM?

Yes. Thanks. I responded. I didn't want to publicize your analysis without your permission here but am also interested in JP's view on the subject.

[Empty_Cup]

Yes. Thanks. I responded. I didn't want to publicize your analysis without your permission here but am also interested in JP's view on the subject.

Gotcha. I appreciate that. I checked my PM's but didn't see any response from you :confused: Can you resend?

[hskwarrior]

old noob...

are you Maiky Tran?
http://www.dcshaolin.com/news.cfm


(my belief is that the Soards' group has generated much of the fodder for the cult accusers).

after watching Soard speaking, i whole heartedly agree with you. that was my first red flag.

[GeneChing]

lol... I never did it. But I'm at 986 too. I'm sure it's a mod fukcing with us or some other cat took my idea. Either somebody erased posts or the thread was split up. It wasn't us. My guess is someone totally poached your idea, Syn7. :p When it gets close again, someone email me a complaint and I can lock it down again (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1191568#post1191568).


I prolly have at least 5 pages of posts. All the same thing. "what? you're crazy? why defend a liar?" "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." ;)


and Gene buys us drinks with those tiny little umbrellas! I think you guys need to buy me the drinks. Never mind the umbrellas. You can get me some G Spirits (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1190426#post1190426) and I like that fresh.

[GeneChing]

When my old BSL Sifu, Wing Lam, released BSL and Hung Gar systems on video, that was with the expectation that people would use it. So now, there are countless schools/teachers/practitioners that use that curriculum, some 'officially' acknowledged, but many not. We weren't possessive with the teachings. We let it go. That's basic Buddhism (and Sifu Lam isn't Buddhist). But back to the point, the point of publishing it (in video form) was to share it. And just like you claim with the book, HSK, there are 'tells' in those Wing Lam vids that can distinguish vid students from the real ones. Those weren't actually intentional, as that would be a little psycho if you really think about it. It was more idiosyncrasies with the video platform, or just plain mistakes (we were a grindhouse and turned out several hundred vids in a very short period).

Nowadays, I hear so often that so much has been lost. With the modern day ease of publishing, I know so many attempting to document forms and systems. That's great. But you can't dis your readers (take it from me, I do it all the time and see where it gets me :rolleyes:).

If SD poached the form, so what? At least they poached from a decent source. BSL poached forms. Songshan Shaolin poaches forms. I have little issue with that. In this rare case, poaching reduces the endangered.

I'm so tempted to merge this back into the IS-Dfr (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782) just to get it back over the 1K hump again. On the other hand, maybe I'll wait until that's crossed again to do it...;)

[Old Noob]

old noob...

are you Maiky Tran?
http://www.dcshaolin.com/news.cfm



after watching Soard speaking, i whole heartedly agree with you. that was my first red flag.

No. I'm not him but its fairly obvious at this point that I attend his school.

[Old Noob]

???
Gene
Where did hskwarrior's 192 posts go to?
Checking the thread post count he has only 1?

Methinks you found it.

[Old Noob]

Gotcha. I appreciate that. I checked my PM's but didn't see any response from you :confused: Can you resend?

I think I fixed it. Let me know if you didn't get it.

[Old Noob]

ROTFFLMFAO.......who deleted my pages? :eek:

I know you're having fun but some of the stuff you had up here was helpful to folks. I really meant what I said on the main page about this thread being a good resource for people who are thinking of taking SD. Your research on Jake's version of the form was very good and your remarks had convinced several of us that Sin The likely took the form from DFW's book. That's good information for people to have. So, if its worth more to knock the thread back below a thousand pages (who the hell really cares about that) than it is to have your incisive commentary on there, which might actually help someone, then fun away.

[GeneChing]

ROTFFLMFAO.......who deleted my pages? :eek:
There are two mods who have control of this forum, me and David. The forum keeps a record of mod actions and it's only been me since 12:32, 9th Oct 2012. And I didn't touch HSK's posts here.

I was initially tempted to merge the PLBU-M thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64610) to get us back to 1K+, but the same deletion could be performed, so perhaps I'll wait on that. :rolleyes:

I must confess - the crossing of 1K+ for IS-Dfr has been much more entertaining than I would have imagined. We should do this for any thread when it crosses 1K, sort of like a hazing.

[Old Noob]

There are two mods who have control of this forum, me and David. The forum keeps a record of mod actions and it's only been me since 12:32, 9th Oct 2012. And I didn't touch HSK's posts here.

I was initially tempted to merge the PLBU-M thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64610) to get us back to 1K+, but the same deletion could be performed, so perhaps I'll wait on that. :rolleyes:

I must confess - the crossing of 1K+ for IS-Dfr has been much more entertaining than I would have imagined. We should do this for any thread when it crosses 1K, sort of like a hazing.

He deleted his own posts. He's having fun.

[Old Noob]

i looked at what i wrote and after the total resistance, the finagling, and the thought of dishonest martial artists actually sickens me.

once everyone in shaolin do admits to the thievery of my lineages 5 animal form and stops giving it a false linkage to the hairy monk/nonmonk.

i want to say this one last time. not one of you can show me a authentically identical form (or even close to how jakes does it) by another proven school or even shaolin. fuk, show me one single shaolin monk that does this form! don't talk, SHOW ME. if you can't admit it and never again place false stuff over my lineages form. admit to how it was acquired.

ask yourselves, why sin the is THE only source of information of the hairy monk? why doesn't the shaolin temple admit to this person being an authentic monk, especially since he was such a memorable individual? ask yourselves what shaolin temple is he talking about? research history to see if there was a shaolin temple in southern china even close to the turning of the 10th century or even the decades just before it.

to conclude, as long as your schools lay claim to my lineages form, i won't be dealing with you till you tell the truth.

I'm already persuaded that Jake either got the form from DFW's book or from Sin The, who got it from DFW's book. Consequently, I am not actively looking to satisfy your challenge. My point was simply that some non-SDer who is contemplating joining an SD school could have been educated in that decision by SOME of your posts. So the person you hurt by deleting your good posts isn't an SDer but someone who you could have been saving from SD's demonic practices. You dig? :D

[buddajoe]

I certainly understand letting go. Many people have poached sets from our style. It's part of the game for some.I follow my late Sifu's idea. Bad kung-fu is still good promotion for good kung-fu.
I still feel that people who poach should give some recognition to whom they poach. I HOPE.

[hskwarrior]

I certainly understand letting go. Many people have poached sets from our style. It's part of the game for some.I follow my late Sifu's idea. Bad kung-fu is still good promotion for good kung-fu.
I still feel that people who poach should give some recognition to whom they poach. I HOPE.

my whole point all along

[GeneChing]

The word 'poach' comes from the same root from which we derive 'pouch' and 'pocket'. When Pitbull poaches Toots Hibbert for his 'Don't stop the party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jRiKZm1ab0)' anyone who knows musical history can tell. Unfortunately, most people don't know their history and such poaching has run rampant in both music and the martial arts nowadays. However, it's probably more efficient to just lay out your case and be done with it. Instead of trying to get a poacher to admit what he pocketed, just teach the next gen the history and move on.

[Jimbo]

When my old BSL Sifu, Wing Lam, released BSL and Hung Gar systems on video, that was with the expectation that people would use it. So now, there are countless schools/teachers/practitioners that use that curriculum, some 'officially' acknowledged, but many not. We weren't possessive with the teachings. We let it go. That's basic Buddhism (and Sifu Lam isn't Buddhist). But back to the point, the point of publishing it (in video form) was to share it. And just like you claim with the book, HSK, there are 'tells' in those Wing Lam vids that can distinguish vid students from the real ones. Those weren't actually intentional, as that would be a little psycho if you really think about it. It was more idiosyncrasies with the video platform, or just plain mistakes (we were a grindhouse and turned out several hundred vids in a very short period).

Nowadays, I hear so often that so much has been lost. With the modern day ease of publishing, I know so many attempting to document forms and systems. That's great. But you can't dis your readers (take it from me, I do it all the time and see where it gets me :rolleyes:).

If SD poached the form, so what? At least they poached from a decent source. BSL poached forms. Songshan Shaolin poaches forms. I have little issue with that. In this rare case, poaching reduces the endangered.

I'm so tempted to merge this back into the IS-Dfr (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782) just to get it back over the 1K hump again. On the other hand, maybe I'll wait until that's crossed again to do it...;)

As long as the actual source of something is acknowledged, I would probably classify it as adopting it rather than poaching (stealing) it. Especially if the material was intentionally released for the implied purpose of allowing the public to learn it. I do feel that learning from scratch from a book or vid/DVD is never ideal. Even if it's the same style but a different lineage. Ultimately, if someone really wants to learn it and has no access to actual instruction, book/DVD is okay initially, but at some point, if possible, the learner needs qualified corrections. Even without markers, you cannot get the fine points alone, especially from a book.

My own CLF Sifu puts markers in forms when demonstrating publicly, and so did I, back when I used to demo.

[Syn7]

I voted to close this thread, B read my old post from what I feel SD is , Then decide, , and C as you Judge so shall you be Judged. KC:D

I'm not gonna dig thru 1000 pages to see what you think. You engaged me after my critique. If you want people to see what you think, then re-post it or link it up.

As for being judged, you and the flying spaghetti monster can judge me all you want.

And for the record, we all judge. We judge every single person we meet. All of us. Anyone who denies that is either full of sh1t or very slow in the head.

[Syn7]

The word 'poach' comes from the same root from which we derive 'pouch' and 'pocket'. When Pitbull poaches Toots Hibbert for his 'Don't stop the party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jRiKZm1ab0)' anyone who knows musical history can tell. Unfortunately, most people don't know their history and such poaching has run rampant in both music and the martial arts nowadays. However, it's probably more efficient to just lay out your case and be done with it. Instead of trying to get a poacher to admit what he pocketed, just teach the next gen the history and move on.

I've released uncleared samples. Depends on what I used, how much of it I used and how I used it. There are some where you really have no choice, but if I think I can get away with it, I don't clear it. :D Just call me poacher!!! That being said, if I was called out, I would come clean. I'm not gonna lie about it. I've even put names in credits that I sampled without clearance. I'm usually pretty up front with what I clear and what I don't.

[hskwarrior]

all i can say is if JIM JONES left to forum, it will be a much better place. gung fu has no time for pooseys

[Empty_Cup]

...That being said, if I was called out, I would come clean. I'm not gonna lie about it. I've even put names in credits that I sampled without clearance. I'm usually pretty up front with what I clear and what I don't.

Exactly. Honest representation.

[hskwarrior]

I've released uncleared samples. Depends on what I used, how much of it I used and how I used it. There are some where you really have no choice, but if I think I can get away with it, I don't clear it. Just call me poacher!!! That being said, if I was called out, I would come clean. I'm not gonna lie about it. I've even put names in credits that I sampled without clearance. I'm usually pretty up front with what I clear and what I don't.

you make beats? :confused:

[CLFNole]

Frank, why are they calling the form U-Ming and not Ng Ying. Can't they steal the language along with the form? :D

[Judge Pen]

Does any of your money end up in SKT's pockets anymore? Do you continue to pay dues? Who is your Sifu?

I respect that you are willing to admit what others will not. We can be friends:p lol

No, not since 2009. But I stopped training for health reasons (bum hip).

[hskwarrior]

Frank, why are they calling the form U-Ming and not Ng Ying. Can't they steal the language along with the form?

Ng Ying, Um Ying. but i think U-ming was a typo. could be wrong. but i know its Ng Ying.

[CLFNole]

Um Ying would be fine too at least that is how it sounds. U-Ming which was used repeatedly by some others i was thinking might be some other language. Sin The was Korean wasn't he?

[hskwarrior]

idk.....but his name is bad news from the get go. THE SIN evil incarnate.

[kwaichang]

Ok so we are almost there there have been challenges and arguing and even a real challenge match derived from this Thread. So here is the TRUE story of SD.
Some is made up by GMT based on what he learned in Indonesia, from GM Ie and others associated with him. It has a Karateesk flavor through out due to so much emphasis being placed in the start from the 1-30 Motor memory and Muscle memory etc. U will notice that those who trained in other systems do the Forms different and with different Dynamics. Dependent upon the style they studied.
The forms are of Chinese Origin but the dynamics arent stressed so they appear "wrong". The Uniforms are Cheap and easier to get . But do look more like Shaolin Monk out fits than some I have seen. THere is alot of good peoplein it and some not so good, Morally and skill wise. I trained in it and still do with some exception. I like the Forms where ever they come from a Book, a video or GM Ie. Repetition develops skill , KUng Fu. A man asked me what is best the other day street fighter or a karate guy I said it is the individual not the art. So i ask all take SD people for who they are and themselves not their opinion of the art they study. KC:)
Here is what I wrote

[kwaichang]

As if I care if any of you respect me, I dont. But I ask how are we to know where anything came from? We do not know any more where it came from than any of you, All we can do is speculate at best KC

[Syn7]

you make beats? :confused:

Part DJ, part producto, all B-Boy...

[Syn7]

No, not since 2009. But I stopped training for health reasons (bum hip).

Sorry to hear that man. I hope you aren't giving up on exercise coz of pain. Maybe you can go find some more yang forms or something. How old are you? But I can totally see why you would leave an external style because of hip problems. Maybe you need some titanium in that b1tch! :D

I fear for my knees. I really do. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I still wear tensors when I run. If I can't flip around, life as I know it is over. It would be good for some of my projects that I'm building tho. lol Lots of inside time :D I've got so many ongoing projects that are just waiting for that one part that I need to find or fab.

[hskwarrior]

Part DJ, part producto, all B-Boy...

zulu nation

you got any beats on youtube?

[shen ku]

It is kind of funny I know of a school who always talked about shaolin do and I now know that they teach some of our forms

[Syn7]

make certain to watch Season One and all the other bits on their YT page - it's gold, I tell ya, GOLD!

I watched some.... it was ok. I'll watch the rest if I get bored. Kind of a rip off of the office(which wasn't that original itself).

[Syn7]

Here is what I wrote

Wow. Ok so before I comment, I have a few questions.

Can you please expand on this:


I trained in it and still do with some exception

You still paying dues? Who is your sifu? What is YOUR lineage? I showed you mine, now you show me yours. :eek:

While I agree with the statement that it is more about the work put in than the technique itself, you can't deny that some technique has more benefit than others. Agreed?

I would go against any purely SD member in my weight class. No question. Not a challenge, just stating the facts.

[Syn7]

zulu nation

you got any beats on youtube?

No. If you are really interested I'll pm my email addy. I compartmentalize my internet usage. I have my reasons, but I'm not gonna get into that here. I'm not here to promote music. In fact I hate promoting myself, PERIOD! I like flying under the radar. I let other people pimp my sh1t.

The Beatnuts and the Alkaholiks teamed up to form a tour group called LikNutts. I know it sounds like a joke, but I'm dead serious. And being from the bay, I know you know who the liks are!!!

[hskwarrior]

No. If you are really interested I'll pm my email addy. I compartmentalize my internet usage. I have my reasons, but I'm not gonna get into that here. I'm not here to promote music. In fact I hate promoting myself, PERIOD! I like flying under the radar. I let other people pimp my sh1t.

The Beatnuts and the Alkaholiks teamed up to form a tour group called LikNutts. I know it sounds like a joke, but I'm dead serious. And being from the bay, I know you know who the liks are!!!

i feel you bro. yeah i know who they are. was just bumpin some **** from them the other day.

here's one of our gigs back in 92. you can see me with the hat behind the dancers. 3 dj's 6 turntables
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKq9m-2vnq8

hers's our boys qbert n mix master mike (beatie boys new dj)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1trx1-9sub8&feature=related

[Syn7]

lol. I know who the piklz are. Can't forget Apollo man, he was the glue!

I have that rsc set on vhs somewhere.

[Judge Pen]

Sorry to hear that man. I hope you aren't giving up on exercise coz of pain. Maybe you can go find some more yang forms or something. How old are you? But I can totally see why you would leave an external style because of hip problems. Maybe you need some titanium in that b1tch! :D

I fear for my knees. I really do. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I still wear tensors when I run. If I can't flip around, life as I know it is over. It would be good for some of my projects that I'm building tho. lol Lots of inside time :D I've got so many ongoing projects that are just waiting for that one part that I need to find or fab.

Not just because of pain. Work obligations and family obligations and degenerative arthritis all together make training difficult. I go the the shooting range and work some internal forms. The hip replacement is coming: just depends on my tolerance for pain. I'm actually holding out until my two little ones get old enough to get into martial arts and then I'll get the replacement and start with them so we can come up through a style together and I can help them while focusing on fundamentals again (at least that's the plan).

I'm almost 38. It's not the years, its the mileage.

[Empty_Cup]

Um Ying would be fine too at least that is how it sounds. U-Ming which was used repeatedly by some others i was thinking might be some other language. Sin The was Korean wasn't he?

Sin The is Chinese. And the title of the thread came from buddhajoe (HSCLF).

[Judge Pen]

Wow. Ok so before I comment, I have a few questions.

Can you please expand on this:



You still paying dues? Who is your sifu? What is YOUR lineage? I showed you mine, now you show me yours. :eek:

While I agree with the statement that it is more about the work put in than the technique itself, you can't deny that some technique has more benefit than others. Agreed?

I would go against any purely SD member in my weight class. No question. Not a challenge, just stating the facts.

You didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway:

1989 to 1994 SD with Vernard Whitaker in Pound VA. 1994 to 1997 no teacher. Played around with some karate and jijitsu, but nothing formal; 1997 to 2001 a little Aikido with JJ Tracey; 2001-2009: SD with Mike Mullins, Kevin Mullins and Garry Mullins plus a lot of cross-training with as many people as possible. 2009 - present: No formal training.

At one time, I would love to spar with you. But I will say this about kwaichang. I would be wary of tangling with him. He's a big and athletic boy with a lot of experience in SD and other arts. He knows how to use what he has learned.

[kwaichang]

Ok I will tell you what I mean by with exception. I do not train formally with anyone at this time, In SD I trained hard and consistently for 21 years in it though, I now do the Mantis and Huas , and Black Tigers , all the Pa Kua and Tai Chi and the weapons forms as well. Non of the Lower rank stuff except Tigers and White crane. Brown and black belt stuff, also the Drunken Immortals and my Fav Hsing Ie. Prior to this I was a Professional boxer with 12 st Gym nashville and a PKA kick Boxer as wellfrom 79-84. Shotokan from 79-92. 7* Tang Lang and Hung Gar from 72-82 some over lap there. You wouldnt know my Teachers, Most of My SD was Private probably over 200 hours worth. I love to train and barring a Back injury have trained w/o a break for 41 years. Except for 45 days and JP knows when and what that was about. KC:D

[Darthlawyer]

when you're lineage begins to admit the true origin of our 5 animal form, ya gets no respect from me at all till then.

Claiming ownership of a form leads to blatant douchebaggery as best demonstrated by Sin The. If you learn your martial theory from a form, you are incompetent. Period. Frankly I see nothing wrong with a trained martial artist taking a form they have seen in a book or video and using it. If you believe that performing a set of maneuvers in a set order makes you better than performing similar moves in a different order, then you are a sushi player, or a superstitious ninny.

People get better fighting by applying moves to opponents (i.e. sparring). People become capable of sparring by practicing their moves in open air (forms or repetiton of individual moves). The idea that someone owns or transmits a form to someone is an archaic belief best left in the past, or to Sin The's bogus lawsuits.

[kwaichang]

I agree somewhat with what you say , however I feel with proper body mechanics and Forms training it will instill a set of techniques that convey a particular set of Principles to a fight situation. each technique should be thought of as a singular approach then one can skip from tech 1 to tech 10 if needed as the situation requires. That to me is why drilling forms is important . KC

[kwaichang]

If Imay ask what is your weight class anyway , just curious. KC

[Empty_Cup]

Claiming ownership of a form leads to blatant douchebaggery as best demonstrated by Sin The. If you learn your martial theory from a form, you are incompetent. Period. Frankly I see nothing wrong with a trained martial artist taking a form they have seen in a book or video and using it. If you believe that performing a set of maneuvers in a set order makes you better than performing similar moves in a different order, then you are a sushi player, or a superstitious ninny.

People get better fighting by applying moves to opponents (i.e. sparring). People become capable of sparring by practicing their moves in open air (forms or repetiton of individual moves). The idea that someone owns or transmits a form to someone is an archaic belief best left in the past, or to Sin The's bogus lawsuits.

I wonder what hsk would have to say about owning and transmitting forms...:rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

Is it locked again ? My computer said it is ? KC

[Old Noob]

Is it locked again ? My computer said it is ? KC

Can't be locked if you posted in it.

[Old Noob]

I wanted to bump this to the top. Hadn't spent much forum time lately to read that particular thread, but I wondered that myself. Let me put some thougth into a more thorough response, but my knee jerk reaction is that it's either (1) Evidence of fabrication; or (2) at the least evidence of modification. I'm going to have an opportunity today to review a lot of my SD videos (and a few of the non-SD forms I've learned along the way) with a good friend and kung fu brother who has studied a more variety of styles than I have and who left SD before I quit training. I'll be sure to talk about this with him as well, but Sean can post his own thoughts on the subject.;)

When you get around to putting up your thoughts, I'd also like to hear your thoughts on the possibility of Hiang The using stuff in his system that Sin The made up. I know I mentioned it in my original comment to this post but I've since revisited Hiang The's website. The 30 short katas, the 20 sparring techniqes, flying tiger, and golden mountain tiger are all there. If Sin The made those forms up, the Hiang The thought enough of them to use them and he has used them with Sin The's knowledge and consent because, to my knowledge, Sin hasn't sued Hiang. Also, as I mentioned, Hiang has our three bird forms listed as part of a much larger system, which was passed to him by another master in Indonesia who was not master Ie. So those lower belt forms at least seem less likely to me to have been made up. It's a morass. In any case, I am interested in the fruits of your thoughts/weekend discussion.

[Judge Pen]

When you get around to putting up your thoughts, I'd also like to hear your thoughts on the possibility of Hiang The using stuff in his system that Sin The made up. I know I mentioned it in my original comment to this post but I've since revisited Hiang The's website. The 30 short katas, the 20 sparring techniqes, flying tiger, and golden mountain tiger are all there. If Sin The made those forms up, the Hiang The thought enough of them to use them and he has used them with Sin The's knowledge and consent because, to my knowledge, Sin hasn't sued Hiang. Also, as I mentioned, Hiang has our three bird forms listed as part of a much larger system, which was passed to him by another master in Indonesia who was not master Ie. So those lower belt forms at least seem less likely to me to have been made up. It's a morass. In any case, I am interested in the fruits of your thoughts/weekend discussion.

Hiang The was used as a defense to the Shane Hamilton lawsuit (so I've been told). The defense is that Hiang The asserts this material was not created by Sin The so he cannot copyright it. If true, it would not lend any insight into the actual origins of SD's material (other than Indonesia) but it would indicate that Sin The lied in the deposition, but did not create this core material. In short, who the hell knows but the The brothers?

[Syn7]

idk.....but his name is bad news from the get go. THE SIN evil incarnate.

Evil is scary.

Nothing about SKT is scary. In fact if he got aggressive with me my first reaction would probably to laugh.

[OldandUsed]

hsk, you are a tool, dude. Just for the heck of it, I am going to get DFW's book and/or video and learn that form. Then, I am going to advertise a free seminar open to the public and teach the form and encourage everyone to bring a video camera. At the end of the seminar I will advise everyone that this is the true form, hold up the book, and tell them that there are little minded people on the west coast that insist it is their form and that nobody else could possibly have the real deal but them. But not to worry, because they can see from the book that it is the real deal. Then after they go out and spread the form all over ther world, you can have your meltdown.

Have a nice day.

[kwaichang]

Oh man that is too funny too tooo funny. Good luck with it I will tell all I know to come and take it. But remember HSK wont respect you after this. KC;)

[Crushing Step]

hsk, you are a tool, dude. Just for the heck of it, I am going to get DFW's book and/or video and learn that form. Then, I am going to advertise a free seminar open to the public and teach the form and encourage everyone to bring a video camera. At the end of the seminar I will advise everyone that this is the true form, hold up the book, and tell them that there are little minded people on the west coast that insist it is their form and that nobody else could possibly have the real deal but them. But not to worry, because they can see from the book that it is the real deal. Then after they go out and spread the form all over ther world, you can have your meltdown.

Have a nice day.


ZOMG that is funny... You should do a live streaming video of the seminar

[Fa Xing]

the real gung fu community loves to laugh at people like you.

It's not the Traditional Kungfu community either...:D

[OldandUsed]

Yeah, I was chuckling while I wrote it. But you want to know what is the funniest part? I have no intention of picking up that stupid form. It does not interest me. Yes, I practiced SD for several years and have many friends that still do, but have been away from SD since 2002. I do other things now and the last thing that is important to me is a "kung fu" form that looks like a white rapper gone mad. If that is your thing, go for it. If I would have attempted to use technique like that while serving warrants, I would have become a statistic instead of dragging bad guys off to jail. No doubt there is some application of "purist kung fu" in the street, but I am not interested in it. Prefer my Byakuren and Judo. KSK is a waste of time, or sifu frank, whatever.

[OldandUsed]

Naw, not worth the effort, especially since I have never picked up any material in that manner. BTW, I (and I expect quite a few others on here) could not care less about acceptance or rejection by the "KUNG FU COMMUNITY", really. If it takes acceptance from a group of whiney baby a$$es to be considered legitimate, I guess I will have to look at my SD time as an illegitimate a$$-kicker. That was then and this is now and while I enjoyed my SD time, it is not even 1/3 of what I am as a martial artist. I do not consider, nor have I ever, myself a kung fu practicioner. I enjoy watching the pretty moves, but prefer to use tried and proven street techniques from Byakuren and Judo to accomplish the task I have to do. Have at it, dude.

[kwaichang]

I have a better Idea HSK why dont you show us how it is supposed to be done. As a rep of the true style surely you can still perform such a basic form . So show a current and recently done 5 animal form as it should be done One legged squat and all. KC:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

I have a better Idea HSK why dont you show us how it is supposed to be done. As a rep of the true style surely you can still perform such a basic form . So show a current and recently done 5 animal form as it should be done One legged squat and all. KC:cool:Now you are asking for too much. :p:)

His actions are reflective of his teaching and or up bringing.

I cant believe hes being such a D-O-U-C-H-E B-A-G....

If anyone is a FRAUD here it is Frank, both start with F, as in FAIL!!

All he's been able to do is keyboard kung fu and put up funny pictures of himself.:eek::rolleyes::D

lets see...
makes outragious claims about his kung fu, associations,etc.,
constantly redirects or changes the subject instead of staying on topic
has no proof of anything other than his word, which means nothing to me,
when in doubt resorts to childish antics and immature behavior....
and has about half a dozen over grown kids ride his nuts like he is the Guru of Gung Fu.....almost like a cult leader...hmm?


I certainly wouldnt want this guy representing my association.:eek::D:cool:


btw ...anyone see his responese video to jake about the five animal form!?!:eek:

[GeneChing]

...NOT!

What is up with you people? Do you really think that you're going to convince your debate adversaries of your position with posts like these? :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

Evil is scary.

Nothing about SKT is scary. In fact if he got aggressive with me my first reaction would probably to laugh.
______

lmao i heard that

[tattooedmonk]

btw.....I read your article, not bad.

I understand a little more why you believe what you do and its understandable, but you are only looking at it from one perspective.

Yes, Si Mo Yuen may have only taught one person( Lau Bun) that form and unless she made it up, someone had to teach her, correct?

If it in fact was a Shaolin form ( Northern or Southern) then chances are pretty **** likely that she wasnt the only one taught the form.

....seeing as both her parents knew it and taught it to her, it is more than likely that others knew/ know it outside of CLF.

I have found three schools that teach it and three other that I am researching

Unless the whole story is made up just to add cedibilty to the form or tehe style....

I find that hard to believe too....

seeing as there is a martial arts manuscipt available with this very form in it which is about 60 years old and is supposedly a few hundred years ago.

I can almost bet Lau Bun learned it from the manuscript...

I think DFW has a copy of it. :D:cool:


Also, most of the stuff that we think is traditional and authentic is just standardized forms from the last 100 years or so....

This form is most likely one of them.

[hskwarrior]

btw.....I read your article, not bad.

which one? the one on my sigung?

[tattooedmonk]

which one? the one on my sigung? yes and the five animal form

[kwaichang]

Do the form film it and if it is good and well done we will or I wil concede your superior KF skills. NOT, any way show us what you got, and not just random tech either. KC:):D:p:cool::eek:

[Orion Paximus]

...NOT!

What is up with you people? Do you really think that you're going to convince your debate adversaries of your position with posts like these? :rolleyes:

Things the internet are for:

1. Looking at porn
2. Arguing with chodes on the internet
3. Looking at more porn

[hskwarrior]

I've said that according to DFW it was taught to yuen hai's wife by her parents. perhaps this was a form based on their shaolin and kept only in their family. this would mean no one else would have it unless they learned it from Si Mo Yuen's parents.

Since there are ZERO schools outiside of my lineage that teaches this form. you have been told by me, buddhajoe, drake, and many others that your school took the form that belongs to my lineage. just because SKT claims to have learned shaolin doesn't mean he learned this form from anyone but the BOOK. you have to ask yourself why i am so adamant about this being the truth.

im sure it hurts, is a shock or something to learn what you've doing is something taken from another style when you thought it was yours.

shaolin do cannot trace their roots any further than Indonesia. thats probably hard to swallow, but sometimes the truth hurts. and, if i was lied to by my sifu about one single thing, i'd worry about him lying to me about everything. i'd never trust him again and i'd develop a burning hatred for being so blantantly lied to.

i'm tired of arguing with people who won't listen to the truth. it doesn't do you any good to finaggle the history around to suit your needs. accept the truth. i'm done.

and thanks for the kind words in regards to the article i wrote about my sigung.

[GeneChing]

It's a funny juxtaposition when you sit down and think about it.

Actually, no one is complaining at this point. Either they're too busy munching on popcorn and laughing or they just don't care any more. Or they're just taking a break from the porn.

[tattooedmonk]

Btw...I have no real issues with you, your belief or what you are saying, its the manner in which you do so....you speak in absolutes , like there is no doubt, and in your mind there may not be.

either way it doesnt matter to me, other than coming to some sort of truth or compromise, because of the lack of facts or the unwillingness to debate it properly.....blahblahblah

will you answer one simple question for me?

Is the form, as you know, only an "internal" form and not a combination of both" internal" and "external"?

[Empty_Cup]

I've said that according to DFW it was taught to yuen hai's wife by her parents. perhaps this was a form based on their shaolin and kept only in their family. this would mean no one else would have it unless they learned it from Si Mo Yuen's parents.

Since there are ZERO schools outiside of my lineage that teaches this form. ...

It sounds like TTM is saying there ARE schools outside your lineage that teach this form...


...

I have found three schools that teach it and three other that I am researching

...

[tattooedmonk]

It sounds like TTM is saying there ARE schools outside your lineage that teach this form...
I am... But it doesn't matter anyway, it will be dismissed or ridiculed or whatever . I am keeping all of my findings quiet until I conclude my research about the subject.

I have two book store owners in Chinatown all over it.:D

Btw you have email...it's just a test to make sure I have the right one.:D

[Syn7]

Hell yeah... Rally the troops, son!!!

[tattooedmonk]

Hell yeah... Rally the troops, son!!!I already have enough to put this to rest , but I want to have all the facts known:D:cool:

[hskwarrior]

ok who are they? please exclude Shaolin DO AND SCHOOLS BELONGING TO DFW.

WHO ARE THE SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS TEACHING THIS SPECIFIC 5 ANIMAL FORM? I'M LISTENING

before i answer any questions i want ot know who is teaching this form? then i will answer

[tattooedmonk]

ok who are they? please exclude Shaolin DO AND SCHOOLS BELONGING TO DFW.

WHO ARE THE SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS TEACHING THIS SPECIFIC 5 ANIMAL FORM? I'M LISTENING

before i answer any questions i want ot know who is teaching this form? then i will answerwhatever, do your own research.:cool:

[taai gihk yahn]

whatever, do your own research.:cool:

seriously? you float an opinion out based on what u claim you have discovered, and then when someone asks you to provide the information, you act like a little b1tch? wow...

if you have evidence that the form exists independently outside of HSK's CLF lineage and outside of SD's, then why not provide it? that would end the entire discussion right there

[hskwarrior]

whatever, do your own research.

so were you trying to bluff me? i mean you want to get down to the bottom of this, i'm telling you the form belongs to us. you said there are others outside my lineage but you refuse or just plain can't come up with anything. too bad. it stands then that shaolin do is just a bunch of form thieves. pretty sad.

[GeneChing]

Ever just Google image search a random comment from the forum?

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs18/f/2007/216/f/5/popcorn_porn_by_Martis_J.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2R3aQB9EOpM/TWgD8wxhI0I/AAAAAAAAAC0/Q_uSrOCf6Og/s1600/CORNPinup%2BGirl.jpg
http://www.labminions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/we-love-popcorn.jpg
http://www.healsandheadshots.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/octopi.jpg

[hskwarrior]

if you have evidence that the form exists independently outside of HSK's CLF lineage and outside of SD's, then why not provide it? that would end the entire discussion right there

its all im asking for. :(

[hskwarrior]

http://www.healsandheadshots.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/octopi.jpg


i need a sand blaster to whipe that image from my mind.

[Sima Rong]

terrible! terrible! Let's not go there any more...

[Judge Pen]

seriously? you float an opinion out based on what u claim you have discovered, and then when someone asks you to provide the information, you act like a little b1tch? wow...

if you have evidence that the form exists independently outside of HSK's CLF lineage and outside of SD's, then why not provide it? that would end the entire discussion right there

I agree. TTM if you can't back up what you say, then don't say it.

[hskwarrior]

i was trying to give the dude chance. turns out he shot himself in the foot. doesn't help his plot. just proves that the founder of Shaolin Do is one very shady individual.

[Crushing Step]

Isn't the fact that SD was proven to be fraudulent in a court of law enough? Sin The, his wolfman, and the whole system have been a laughing stock of the martial arts community for years. Now their house of cards has fallen, join in the lulz and quit stressing out. Yes, they stole forms from you, and everyone else.

[hskwarrior]

Isn't the fact that SD was proven to be fraudulent in a court of law enough? Sin The, his wolfman, and the whole system have been a laughing stock of the martial arts community for years. Now their house of cards has fallen, join in the lulz and quit stressing out. Yes, they stole forms from you, and everyone else.

more about Shaolin Do need to be out there. we need to have a website that shows who the frauds are. or at least the overly sketchy ones.

[Empty_Cup]

more about Shaolin Do need to be out there. we need to have a website that shows who the frauds are. or at least the overly sketchy ones.

Sounds like you'd enjoy Bullshido.

I even did the search for you: http://www.bullshido.net/?pageid=search&search=shaolin+do&submit=GO

Enjoy going down the rabbit hole, and let us know if you find anything that hasn't been discussed at length already.

[hskwarrior]

sounds like you'd enjoy bullshido.

I even did the search for you: http://www.bullshido.net/?pageid=sea...n+do&submit=go

enjoy going down the rabbit hole, and let us know if you find anything that hasn't been discussed at length already.

all i care about is getting the truth out there about skt and shaolin do stealing forms. Aside from asking how long will shaolin do exist while people know they're frauds, i have nothing else to say about shaolin do.

[Empty_Cup]

I agree. TTM if you can't back up what you say, then don't say it.

My guess is he was having a bit of fun since the research will take a bit longer and he won't post until it's complete.

But TTM, as JP said, this doesn't really help your argument. As hard as it is to be a SD practitioner (present or past) on this forum sometimes, it's probably better to not foster the flames...:cool:

[hskwarrior]

my guess is he was having a bit of fun since the research will take a bit longer and he won't post until it's complete.

But ttm, as jp said, this doesn't really help your argument. As hard as it is to be a sd practitioner (present or past) on this forum sometimes, it's probably better to not foster the flames...

he's never gonna find anything ever!

[tattooedmonk]

seriously? you float an opinion out based on what u claim you have discovered, and then when someone asks you to provide the information, you act like a little b1tch? wow...

if you have evidence that the form exists independently outside of HSK's CLF lineage and outside of SD's, then why not provide it? that would end the entire discussion right thereDid I say anything to you , d!ck breath? no one else has shown anything other than temper tantrums and talk sh!t, you included. side buster. save all of the intimidation factors for someone else.

[hskwarrior]

Did I say anything to you , d!ck breath? no one else has shown anything other than temper tantrums and talk sh!t, you included. side buster. save all of the intimidation factors for someone else.

YOU TALK ALOT BUT AIN'T SAYIN NUTHIN. YOU'RE THE SIDE BUSTER...BUSTER. lol

I'LL PUT MONEY ON THE TABLE THAT YOU NEVER FIND WHAT YOU THINK YOU'RE LOOKING FOR.

[tattooedmonk]

he's never gonna find anything ever!I already did. Just looking for a few extra nails.....:eek::D:cool:

HSK..I believe your history as you know it. However, it is only your history and does not speak for the history of all of the ( chinese ) martial arts community??.


BTW wasnt there something in your history about someone being from Indonesia?:eek::D:cool:

Funny thing is that with most of the styles/ forms in which I am researching many of them are really well known in Indonesian. :D:)

Just saying.

also, I am doing this for me, the form and for the viewers, not to prove anything for or against or about SD . it has nothing to do with that.

Although the form is rare it is still well known and practiced by many shaolin schools outside of CLF... :D

[tattooedmonk]

YOU TALK ALOT BUT AIN'T SAYIN NUTHIN. YOU'RE THE SIDE BUSTER...BUSTER. lol

I'LL PUT MONEY ON THE TABLE THAT YOU NEVER FIND WHAT YOU THINK YOU'RE LOOKING FOR.I already did!:you side buster buster buster!

[hskwarrior]

I already did. Just looking for a few extra nails.....

HSK..I believe your history as you know it. However, it is only your history and does not speak for the history all of the ( chinese ) martial arts community??.


BTW wasnt there something in your history about someone being from Indonesia?

Funny thing is that with most of the styles/ forms in which I am researching many of them are really well known in Indonesian.

Just saying.

also, I am doing this for me, the form and for the viewers, not to prove anything for or against or about SD . it has nothing to do with that.

Although the form is rare it is still well known and practiced by many shaolin schools outside of CLF...

nothing. i'm telling you you're bluffing. or someone lied to you. or you're gonna say "oh i thought it was this form"....... nope. we gonna ride this till the wheels fall off.


HSK..I believe your history as you know it. However, it is only your history and does not speak for the history of all of the ( chinese ) martial arts community??.

all im asking you to do is prove it. thats all. prove it.


Although the form is rare it is still well known and practiced by many shaolin schools outside of CLF...

if you're not bluffing, you must know something. so im sure you have some video proof to back it up. i have video proof of it being in my lineage since the beginning. a good number of people on this forum are of doc fai wong's lineage. they you you're not telling the truth either.

so i'm waiting for one video that isn't shaolin do, but is of another shaolin system that does our form. will i be waiting forever? of course i would be. but i'm not really gonna wait on something i know you can never produce.


BTW wasnt there something in your history about someone being from Indonesia?

see, this is where i get you point my finger and chuckle. you fell for what ever doc fai wrote down in the book. the indonesia thing was HIS concoction. i have my story of Yuen Hai that comes directly from my Sigung and Buddhajoe's teacher, who is DFW' senior by 20 years.

its ok if you want to believe what you read in that book, just know all isn't the truth.

[hskwarrior]

http://i.qkme.me/3pcrbj.jpg

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/68489_10151130848187732_1706443129_n.jpg

[hskwarrior]

http://www.jerrysartarama.com/blog/image.axd?picture=2011%2F8%2Fprove-it.jpg

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/548528_10151130875612732_844530256_n.jpg

[taai gihk yahn]

Did I say anything to you , d!ck breath? no one else has shown anything other than temper tantrums and talk sh!t, you included. side buster. save all of the intimidation factors for someone else.

NOW I know where I've seen u before!

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/d7a/238/696/resized/the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world-meme-generator-i-don-t-always-have-sand-in-my-vagina-but-when-i-do-it-feels-good-man-f4106b.jpg

[hskwarrior]

rotfflmmfao.......

[Sima Rong]

Or you can do this:

http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/news_images/5137_Hu%20Qiong.jpg

[taai gihk yahn]

Did I say anything to you , d!ck breath?

I sense a tag-line change coming...

[Drake]

I already did. Just looking for a few extra nails.....:eek::D:cool:

HSK..I believe your history as you know it. However, it is only your history and does not speak for the history of all of the ( chinese ) martial arts community??.


BTW wasnt there something in your history about someone being from Indonesia?:eek::D:cool:

Funny thing is that with most of the styles/ forms in which I am researching many of them are really well known in Indonesian. :D:)

Just saying.

also, I am doing this for me, the form and for the viewers, not to prove anything for or against or about SD . it has nothing to do with that.

Although the form is rare it is still well known and practiced by many shaolin schools outside of CLF... :D

Uh huh... suuuuuuuuuuuure...

Frauds tend to develop little fraud underlings, I see.

[hskwarrior]

good gravy, can I borrow it when ur done, please?

it tastes more like Alfredo Sauce. but sure. all yours

[Syn7]

I already have enough to put this to rest , but I want to have all the facts known:D:cool:

No doubt... Be honest about it and give us ALL your evidence and not just a conclusion and cherry picked data to support such a conclusion.



If you are open to advice, I would say you should find a DFW student who you trust that can show you similarities and differences between what was in the book and what the actual trusted long term students were taught. That way you can break the form down and prove the markers either exist in the SD version(which proves HSKs theory) or they do not exist. That goes for any other versions you may find as well. DFW had a billion students, shouldn't be too hard to find somebody in that lineage that is willing to help you as long as you are willing to stay objective during the process.



BTW:
Kinda kills your credibility when you make forceful conclusions before you even start the research. If you really wanna use the scientific method to make a point, it helps to have a hypothesis before a conclusion... Just sayin'...

[Syn7]

Did I say anything to you , d!ck breath? no one else has shown anything other than temper tantrums and talk sh!t, you included. side buster. save all of the intimidation factors for someone else.

What the fukc are you talking about? HSK has done a sh1tload of research. He is a CLF historian. Alot of his findings are available for others to read. And if you weren't such a d1ck about it I'm sure he would even provide unpublished research. But at this point, I can't fault HSK for not wanting to take the time for somebody acting the way you have.

[Syn7]

Although the form is rare it is still well known and practiced by many shaolin schools outside of CLF... :D

Ok now I just feel like being a d1ck. Surely you aren't this retarded and just made a mistake, RIGHT??? RIGHT???

[hskwarrior]

Ok now I just feel like being a d1ck. Surely you aren't this retarded and just made a mistake, RIGHT??? RIGHT???

rotflmfao!!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

No doubt... Be honest about it and give us ALL your evidence and not just a conclusion and cherry picked data to support such a conclusion.



If you are open to advice, I would say you should find a DFW student who you trust that can show you similarities and differences between what was in the book and what the actual trusted long term students were taught. That way you can break the form down and prove the markers either exist in the SD version(which proves HSKs theory) or they do not exist. That goes for any other versions you may find as well. DFW had a billion students, shouldn't be too hard to find somebody in that lineage that is willing to help you as long as you are willing to stay objective during the process.



BTW:
Kinda kills your credibility when you make forceful conclusions before you even start the research. If you really wanna use the scientific method to make a point, it helps to have a hypothesis before a conclusion... Just sayin'...
It's already been established, Klingon ! How's that nut ride!?:rolleyes::eek::D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Ok now I just feel like being a d1ck. Surely you aren't this retarded and just made a mistake, RIGHT??? RIGHT???
Yes, I forgot to type the word "fairly" before well known. Oops. Oh well fu(ktard.:eek::D

[tattooedmonk]

What the fukc are you talking about? HSK has done a sh1tload of research. He is a CLF historian. Alot of his findings are available for others to read. And if you weren't such a d1ck about it I'm sure he would even provide unpublished research. But at this point, I can't fault HSK for not wanting to take the time for somebody acting the way you have.
Keywords dingleberry" Chou lee fut" Not all of CMA and not all of Shaolin. So why not shut your t#rdhole. Btw .frank.... None of you mo fukaz have shown anything, so eat your own medicine.

[Snipsky]

shoot! i step away for a few weeks and lordy, what happuned her? never i read this thread b4. interersting. i sit back and watch

me too, i don't like the shaolin do. they remind me of karata-ka.

[Snipsky]

Shaolin Doh makes me think of Dojo. How come they're kung fu says karate?

after reading back a bit, i see now. Shaolin Doh is fake isn't it?? :confused:

That white guy Jake, i don't like his body how it moves. moves like a prima donna.

why does teacher Sin The have the king of Mullets? makes me feel like saying mully mully mully. jajajajaja.

[Syn7]

Ok I will tell you what I mean by with exception. I do not train formally with anyone at this time, In SD I trained hard and consistently for 21 years in it though, I now do the Mantis and Huas , and Black Tigers , all the Pa Kua and Tai Chi and the weapons forms as well. Non of the Lower rank stuff except Tigers and White crane. Brown and black belt stuff, also the Drunken Immortals and my Fav Hsing Ie. Prior to this I was a Professional boxer with 12 st Gym nashville and a PKA kick Boxer as wellfrom 79-84. Shotokan from 79-92. 7* Tang Lang and Hung Gar from 72-82 some over lap there. You wouldnt know my Teachers, Most of My SD was Private probably over 200 hours worth. I love to train and barring a Back injury have trained w/o a break for 41 years. Except for 45 days and JP knows when and what that was about. KC:D

Well then how can you attribute that to SD? Who are your teachers, name them anyways? Who are your CMA teachers? I'm in the same boat as you are. While I do a few styles, I can't really be sure which make me the better fighter. To asses the styles I choose to learn I judge the ones who only do that one style. Then I move on to how it could relate to other styles and whether it would be a benefit to my overall style, or not.

I walk around at about 155. I can cut if I need to. Wrestling taught me that. I'll roll with anyone. But when it comes to actual combat, if the size difference is huge, I will either choose not to engage, or if that choice is not available I will do whatever I need to do to make sure I'm the one who walks away from it. By any means necessary. That being said, 95% of my real fights have been with people who are at least 30 or 40 pounds heavier.


Anyways, the whole argument isn't even about the validity of any fighting style. It's about fraud and integrity. You chose to post and defend Sin The, or did you get confused again and think we all had the same argument and attributed all positions to all opposition.
Why learn from people who learned from a proven liar and fraud when you clearly have other options? Now that I know you are more than some rank and file SD card carrier it makes it even worse. You SHOULD see what we all see. Why do you not see the obvious? A few sensible and honest(with others and themselves) SDers see it, why don't you? You should be angry at Sin The for casting such a shadow on SD, not those who point out the obvious.



You should change your name to Sin 7, ur a ****, FU man FU.

How old are you? You broke pretty fast for somebody passed middle age.

I like to try to push people outside their zone, see what they can take. It's just how I do. The net is one big social experiment as far as I`m concerned and everyone who engages with me is a potential guinea pig. Although, I do the opposite far more often. I find that when you act like you agree with people they tend to be more forthcoming and more honest when speaking about their opinions.


That being said, I'm very sorry if I said anything to offend. I would like to be friends.:)

[taai gihk yahn]

COME TO ME AND I WILL SHARPEN YOU UP AND MAKE YOU SPANKIN NEW. LIKE A DEFORMED LITTLE NEWBORN BABY WITH SHAOLIN DO SYNDROME.

I laughed for about 5 minutes...


then I cried, a little, because there are so many who have this


then I laughed again...

[Syn7]

Or you can do this:

http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/news_images/5137_Hu%20Qiong.jpg

I would like to see him do that with a wood or metal bit in the hammer drill(not that it would fit in the SD chuck). Thats a concrete bit and they are dull on purpose. Not even in the same league when putting it to ur head. Neat trick tho. It's still pretty good, but VERY misleading.

[Syn7]

hsk, you are a tool, dude. Just for the heck of it, I am going to get DFW's book and/or video and learn that form. Then, I am going to advertise a free seminar open to the public and teach the form and encourage everyone to bring a video camera. At the end of the seminar I will advise everyone that this is the true form, hold up the book, and tell them that there are little minded people on the west coast that insist it is their form and that nobody else could possibly have the real deal but them. But not to worry, because they can see from the book that it is the real deal. Then after they go out and spread the form all over ther world, you can have your meltdown.

Have a nice day.

What are you, fukcin 12 years old? Wow. While HSK may be a lil rough around the edges, and I'm sure he has his reasons, you are a str8 retard. I'm sure you have your reasons. :rolleyes: Wow, that was some elementary sh1t right there. Regardless of HSK's eloquence, how could the point go so far above your head?

[Syn7]

good gravy

What! are you auditioning for Scooby Doo?

[Syn7]

...NOT!

What is up with you people? Do you really think that you're going to convince your debate adversaries of your position with posts like these? :rolleyes:


I know it's really really hard, but it's best for your pocket book to just not take sides here. Know what I mean? I know... It's really really hard. I'm sure as far as KFM is concerned, everyone is awesome and should go to www.martialartsmart.com for all the xmas sales I'm sure are about to start popping up. :p

[Syn7]

Is there any mention of the hairy monk anywhere else? A hairy monk seems like the exact thing CMA culture would pounce on. If it's real, it's gotta be in other peoples stories too. That sh1t just doesn't go unnoticed. An amazing MAist with a wallflower disposition may go unnoticed. But a Shaolin Monk with Hypertrichosis doesn't fly under the radar whether they are great martial artists or not. Being a great martial artist just means it's even more likely to be popular. There is no way a monk with Hypertrichosis went unnoticed by all but the honorable and forthright Sin The and his illustrious lineage....!!!

[Empty_Cup]

What the fukc are you talking about? HSK has done a sh1tload of research. He is a CLF historian. Alot of his findings are available for others to read. And if you weren't such a d1ck about it I'm sure he would even provide unpublished research. But at this point, I can't fault HSK for not wanting to take the time for somebody acting the way you have.

Actually HSK I'd be interested in reading your research on this form.

[OldandUsed]

@Gene...things have been back and forth so much on this one. It all started with whether or not SD was a legitimate style to a gathering of current and former SDers to a place for outsiders (of SD) to dog pile on anyone associated with SD. Yes, some of us (myself included) have sunk to the level of baiting and doing a little spitting and hissing. (BTW, it is entertaining to see the reactions to that at times). No harm intended and it is all in good fun.

For the rest of you that have never done SD and just want to throw your two cents in, many of us that started SD back in the late 60s or eraly 70s remember SKT explaining that some of the techniques we were getting were modified moves he created to accomodate us. You know what? We did not care. The whole aspect of legitimate or fraudulent martial arts did not enter the picture because we figured it was better than what was otherwise available or we realized that somebody somewhere had made up the "established" martial arts to begin with. So what? Karate, Kung Fu, whatever. Personally, to me it is just a label and I am not overly concerned with it. Yeah, I know, I am just an ignorant hillbilly from Kentucky and what do I know. Makes no difference that I traveled a bit with the military and put boot to a$$ for Uncle Sam and have over 17 years in law enforcement dealing with dirtballs on the street that always want to challenge authority. Or that I have cross-trained in a few of the "established" martial arts and now cannot even say I practice one specific art. If it makes you feel better to put someone else down then by all means have at it.

I am now going back to lurking.

[tattooedmonk]

What are you, fukcin 12 years old? Wow. While HSK may be a lil rough around the edges, and I'm sure he has his reasons, you are a str8 retard. I'm sure you have your reasons. :rolleyes: Wow, that was some elementary sh1t right there. Regardless of HSK's eloquence, how could the point go so far above your head?

Are you!? It's ok for all you but sack riding mo fukaz to keep saying and doing the same stuff, but as soon as someone does it to you, you all cry about it. c-U-nt how's you medicine taste!?

[Old Noob]

Isn't the fact that SD was proven to be fraudulent in a court of law enough? Sin The, his wolfman, and the whole system have been a laughing stock of the martial arts community for years. Now their house of cards has fallen, join in the lulz and quit stressing out. Yes, they stole forms from you, and everyone else.

SD was not proven to be "fraudulent" in a court of law. That statement is overly broad and factually inaccurate. A deposition was taken (which is not in a court of law but under oath nonetheless) during the deposition, Sin The claimed to have created a significant amount of SD material. That claim is at odds with claims he has made elsewhere, including in his book and on his schooll websites wherein he claims that some of that same material was ancient. The problem is that if something is ancient, it is not able to be copyrighted whereas if it is created by Sin The, then it is (sort of). Thus the case was settled after Sin The's motion for preliminary injunction was denied. While the deposition established that Sin The has either lied during the deposition or to his students about the source of some of the SD material, it has not be decided in a court of law that the system as a whole is fradulent. Same same with the Vanover case. Bad factual understanding creates worthless opinions.

This law lesson was free.

[Old Noob]

TTM, if you can refute Frank, you should share your research. Otherwise you're acting pretty much just like him. You're not doing anyone any favors.

[hskwarrior]

This must have taken a long time to type, seeing as you probably had one hand on your own c-o-c-k the whole time. just like the other punk @$$ b!thches around here.

whoa! why do you have your mind on this mans junk? punk! lol

hey, did it feel good to say some cuss words? your mom won't catch you right? :confused::eek:

[Old Noob]

if he could act like me he'd have some females. but he doesn't. :(

IF he could refute me he'd shut me up. but he can't. :(

IF he could act like me he'd be able to do a 3rd leg spin. but he can't. :(

hell if old noob, jim jones (TTM), jake, or anyone in Shaolin Do could refute me they'd do it. BUT THEY CAN'T, SO THEY WON'T. :D

syn, WHY TREAT FRAUDS WITH RESPECT? MY RUFF EDGES ARE A PERSONAL ADDITION TO THE HSK CHARACTER :D

Thanks for making my point Frank. I know this is a web forum and that some amount of bombast is par for the course but you'd both be taken more seriously if you could be civil in your replies. Even if you don't respect the other's position, the pics and name calling is childish - I'm talking specifically about the "can't get females"-type comments; if someone is being a douche by all means call them a douche. It doesn't reflect well on you or your lineage.

[tattooedmonk]

TTM, if you can refute Frank, you should share your research. Otherwise you're acting pretty much just like him. You're not doing anyone any favors.when I have concluded my findings I will, but the burden of proof isn't on me.

That's my point! :D:cool: these guys are trolls that feed off this sh!t, it's just funny that you can't have a normal debate or discussion with these keyboard Kung fu gurus that ate all from legitate mine ages and practice the real deal and all that.:D:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

if he could act like me he'd have some females. but he doesn't. :(

IF he could refute me he'd shut me up. but he can't. :(

IF he could act like me he'd be able to do a 3rd leg spin. but he can't. :(

hell if old noob, jim jones (TTM), jake, or anyone in Shaolin Do could refute me they'd do it. BUT THEY CAN'T, SO THEY WON'T. :D

syn, WHY TREAT FRAUDS WITH RESPECT? MY RUFF EDGES ARE A PERSONAL ADDITION TO THE HSK CHARACTER :D
I can prove what I need to when I need to , you have nothing to prove your position other than your word and few others . You have still offered nothing. In the way of proof one way or another. :eek:

[tattooedmonk]

SD was not proven to be "fraudulent" in a court of law. That statement is overly broad and factually inaccurate. A deposition was taken (which is not in a court of law but under oath nonetheless) during the deposition, Sin The claimed to have created a significant amount of SD material. That claim is at odds with claims he has made elsewhere, including in his book and on his schooll websites wherein he claims that some of that same material was ancient. The problem is that if something is ancient, it is not able to be copyrighted whereas if it is created by Sin The, then it is (sort of). Thus the case was settled after Sin The's motion for preliminary injunction was denied. While the deposition established that Sin The has either lied during the deposition or to his students about the source of some of the SD material, it has not be decided in a court of law that the system as a whole is fradulent. Same same with the Vanover case. Bad factual understanding creates worthless opinions.

This law lesson was free.
Good stuff, I agree . Thanks for that!:D

[tattooedmonk]

Honorable Forum Members

How many Divisions/Fractions of CLF Claim the Lau Bun Linage?

Thanking you in advance for your Reply

OTD
Not many...

[Old Noob]

when I have concluded my findings I will, but the burden of proof isn't on me.

Agreed but share nonetheless. Please let me know when I should start popping the pop corn.

[GeneChing]

i need a sand blaster to whipe that image from my mind. FTW! Gives new meaning to octo*****. :p


I'm sure as far as KFM is concerned, everyone is awesome and should go to www.martialartsmart.com for all the xmas sales I'm sure are about to start popping up. :p Well said, but we're still in Halloween (http://www.martialartsmart.com/halloween-costumes.html) sales now. ;)


No harm intended and it is all in good fun. That's cool. As long as everyone is having fun, it's all good.

[tattooedmonk]

Agreed but share nonetheless. Please let me know when I should start popping the pop corn......of course:D

[hskwarrior]

Uuh no. By the way he posted this its sounds like he thinks pretty high of himself as a martial artist, he gave himself a long stroke here.

OH WOW DUDE......I NEVER THOUGHT OF ANYONE HERE TOUCHING THEMSELVES MUCH LESS KNOWING IF THEY CAN LONG STROKE IT OR SHORT STROKES. BUT HEY, WHAT EVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT.

SYN, I THINK YOU HAVE AN ADMIRER :D OR GROUPIE :p

[Snipsky]

Alot of things going on about Shaolin Do being real kung fu. I look around the internet and see why many peoples don't believe Shaolin Do is the true Shaolin.

I finded this video and it makes me think this is kungfu? i never see kung fu do like this. Shoot. When i first see the teachers mullet, i say mully mully mully. i can not control my laughing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRXqHBK1Eyw

Howcome the teacher has no stance? no Jaht Ma? if i have two sticks and move like this i thinks i dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foDXjaSyQMk

I tried looking Shaolin Do but cannot find anything before Indonesia.

HSK, its no bueno Shaolin Do acts like homeless children. they copy the shaolin 5 animal set.

[Judge Pen]

SD was not proven to be "fraudulent" in a court of law. That statement is overly broad and factually inaccurate. A deposition was taken (which is not in a court of law but under oath nonetheless) during the deposition, Sin The claimed to have created a significant amount of SD material. That claim is at odds with claims he has made elsewhere, including in his book and on his schooll websites wherein he claims that some of that same material was ancient. The problem is that if something is ancient, it is not able to be copyrighted whereas if it is created by Sin The, then it is (sort of). Thus the case was settled after Sin The's motion for preliminary injunction was denied. While the deposition established that Sin The has either lied during the deposition or to his students about the source of some of the SD material, it has not be decided in a court of law that the system as a whole is fradulent. Same same with the Vanover case. Bad factual understanding creates worthless opinions.

This law lesson was free.

Excellent summary of the legal status of all of this. It will fall on deaf ears.

[Shaolin]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foDXjaSyQMk[/url

Looks like: http://youtu.be/HPPj6viIBmU

In my opinion the guy moves like crap and he made up his own system. Who cares. All systems can be traced back to some guy that had an idea, started making up his own forms and system.

Just because someone has "authentic linage" doesn't make their martial arts system any better than anyone else's. They still all go back to one guy.

[Judge Pen]

Honorable Forum Members

How many Divisions/Fractions of CLF Claim the Lau Bun Linage?

Thanking you in advance for your Reply

OTD

Frank, can you lend some insight into this question? Your sigung is the head of that lineage, but how many other CLF lineages have split off from Lau Bun's lineage?

[hskwarrior]

Just because someone has "authentic linage" doesn't make their martial arts system any better than anyone else's. They still all go back to one guy.

THAT RIGHT THERE. it proves the lack of understanding of what it means to be part of a lineage and be proud of it.

shaolin do's martial arts is called KUNGARATE. wannabe kung fu be really karate.

thats not taking away from skills. no one is mentioning skills. we are talking about what is authentic and what is made up bull sh1t given a fake history. hairy monk my ass. shaolin temple in the early 1900's my ass. smh:(

i can pretty much say styles like Wing Chung, Hung Gar, and Choy Lee Fut have people who are all proud to be of their respective lineages. i know this for a fact. and i believe there are some who are proud to be shaolin do.