Is Shaolin-Do for real? [Archive] - Page 63

tattooedmonk

10-18-2012, 01:33 PM

THAT RIGHT THERE. it proves the lack of understanding of what it means to be part of a lineage and be proud of it.

shaolin do's martial arts is called KUNGARATE. wannabe kung fu be really karate.

thats not taking away from skills. no one is mentioning skills. we are talking about what is authentic and what is made up bull sh1t given a fake history. hairy monk my ass. shaolin temple in the early 1900's my ass. smh:(being proud maybe part of your problem.

We all understand what you are saying, it just doesn't matter to most people like it does to you. And saying the same things over and over isn't changing your results. SD has a lineage that is different than most because of the path it has traveled . Many schools an their lineage can and are questioned all the time. You should know this most of all.

Btw. It wasn't until recent years that anyone called it (SD) Kung Fu . It had always been known as karate , Chinese karate . You are arguing over semantics and minor technicalities.

hskwarrior

10-18-2012, 01:36 PM

We all understand what you are saying, it just doesn't matter to most people like it does to you. And saying the same things over and over isn't changing your results. SD has a lineage that is different than most because of the path it has traveled . Many schools an their lineage can and are questioned all the time. You should know this most of all.

Btw. It wasn't until recent years that anyone called it (SD) Kung Fu . It had always been known as karate , Chinese karate . You are arguing over semantics and minor technicalities.

fair enough. now tell me about this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXqmiWeLTI4

bawang

10-18-2012, 03:28 PM

It had always been known as karate , Chinese karate . You are arguing over semantics and minor technicalities.

you admit its karate

VICTORY

buddajoe

10-18-2012, 04:08 PM

Judge Pen

10-18-2012, 04:52 PM

fair enough. now tell me about this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXqmiWeLTI4

Funny stuff. But I enjoy actually seeing you demoing 5AF. The little I've seen you and your sifu do is very nice. Frankly I'd like to see more of it. I've never seen anyone in Hung Sing do the opening section (aside from the old old videos on youtube of DFW). I'd love to see your expression of the opening section. But if you want to tease and put up funny videos, then that's entertaining too (just not very constructive).

Jimbo

10-18-2012, 05:03 PM

there are many individuals who have learned our forms. Howard Lee who is my sisuk, taught many in Southern California who don't all follow CLF. In fact Lee sisuk has his own methods and expects to live 150 years. Check it out. Janet Gee, learned from DFW. She was very different when I knew her. She is on a path of discovery. Bob Cook, who learned from Jew Sifu during the 70's and who is now in his seventies. His son ,JR.who was called Beetle is now in MMA. Dino has his picture in his studio. Bob has pictures of my sifu is on his Facebook page. When i knew these others they all had the same base. I'm sure that over time there has been changes but none that would extreme.

Howard Lee was my Sifu's (Frank Primicias) first CLF teacher and gave him his CLF base. Later, Howard Lee turned the school over to Sigung John Lem, and he became my Sifu's primary CLF teacher for a decade. Sigung Lem's CLF is very different from Lau Bun's Hung Sing. However, we have HS as well as Chan Family material as well.

Back in 2005, I went to the house of Share K. Lew for a qigong healing treatment to supplement my rehab for a shoulder injury. He of course knew my Sifu, since he had taught him qigong prior to my Sifu training with Howard Lee. I mentioned how the injury made doing the CLF motions difficult, and he gently smiled and said, "Yes..." and about three-quarter speed demo'd sow choy/biu Jong, chuin nau/poon kiu/chop choy. He was around 87 at the time, and I hadn't heard of him performing CLF before, though I knew he had CLF background from Lau Bun(?). I don't know if Master Lew still practiced CLF (probably not), but his movements were still sharp and powerful-looking.

Syn7

10-18-2012, 05:12 PM

Excellent summary of the legal status of all of this. It will fall on deaf ears.

I get it. He either lied in the dep or he lied to his students. That makes him a liar who lacks integrity. Nothing difficult about it. Both options are unacceptable when it comes to somebody who is supposed to be a role model. It's even worse because he is selling this false image. This case isn't deep people. It's shallow as fukc. No confusion here.

You do realize that words taken in deposition can be and are used in a court of law, right? Had the case gone all the way, those depositions would have been entered. FOR SURE.

So why was the case settled? Who gave in and why? Was there a compromise?

Syn7

10-18-2012, 05:19 PM

bob cook's son is in MMA now. known as crazy bob cook.

look at the hands size of bob cook senior....meat hooks

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/15867_209503812731_256493_n.jpg

HOLY SH!T....!!!

Anyone willing to authenticate this pic? Providence please? You folks that actually met bob cook, were his hands really that big? His lanky body makes them look even bigger.

Dude can cover his whole face with just his palm. Crazy! Were his hands a plus or a minus in his practice? Big is not always better, but I suspect in this case it may be. Where they strong too? Or just Ginormous?

hskwarrior

10-18-2012, 05:26 PM

Funny stuff. But I enjoy actually seeing you demoing 5AF. The little I've seen you and your sifu do is very nice. Frankly I'd like to see more of it. I've never seen anyone in Hung Sing do the opening section (aside from the old old videos on youtube of DFW). I'd love to see your expression of the opening section. But if you want to tease and put up funny videos, then that's entertaining too (just not very constructive).
__________________

the opening section is exactly as Jake has it, minus his lack of understanding of this form. move for move.

Syn7

10-18-2012, 06:04 PM

hskwarrior

10-18-2012, 06:53 PM

being proud maybe part of your problem.

if you had a lineage like mine, you'd be proud too. i'm so happy we never had the tags of frauds, liars, sexual misconduct and the like. Lau Bun was called the Sage of the Martial World. Sin The is known for being a fraud.

i know why im proud.

We all understand what you are saying, it just doesn't matter to most people like it does to you. And saying the same things over and over isn't changing your results. SD has a lineage that is different than most because of the path it has traveled . Many schools an their lineage can and are questioned all the time. You should know this most of all.

im still waiting for your proof. i know you are bluffing. but i'mma keep calling you out till you either admit you're whack or prove something. bluffin ass mo fo.

tattooedmonk

10-18-2012, 08:12 PM

tattooedmonk

10-18-2012, 08:18 PM

wow; that stuff suked so horribly, every last moment of it, words almost can't describe the craptacularity of those performances;

and for once, the old SD saw of "well, those people demoing weren't representative of SD" doesn't hold water, bec those were demos Sin The participated in; meaning that the people he had demo were who he thought best represented the system; and they suked; and they look like pretty much the way all other SD forms on YT look as well...

and that form of Sin The doing the crutches - MY GOD - there were times in that form he clearly wasn't sure what move he was doing next! pathetic...

Here is what really happens when SD practitioners meet to fight each other:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GugeH9xd9zEobviously you can do better.:rolleyes::eek: those videos are for fun and for the families of SD.. doing demos and being a performer are two different things...you must have got picked on or worse growing up....you all take these little bits of nothing and read way too much into it or not enough, just stupid.

tattooedmonk

10-18-2012, 08:27 PM

if you had a lineage like mine, you'd be proud too. i'm so happy we never had the tags of frauds, liars, sexual misconduct and the like. Lau Bun was called the Sage of the Martial World. Sin The is known for being a fraud.

i know why im proud.

im still waiting for your proof. i know you are bluffing. but i'mma keep calling you out till you either admit you're whack or prove something. bluffin ass mo fo.its made you blind and arrogant. I dont care what your lineage is or who you are. you expect everyone to bow down to that? really? thats just ridiculous.

hskwarrior

10-18-2012, 08:40 PM

its made you blind and arrogant. I dont care what your lineage is or who you are. you expect everyone to bow down to that? really? thats just ridiculous.

of course you don't. But, i will forever take ME over being you, ya fraud. just like SIN THE, you made a wildly outrageous claim that you have the proof to prove me wrong about our 5 animal shaolin form. but just like Sin The, you failed.

we've seen your lineages sparring, forms, and weapons. most of your leaders need tons of work. no one in the kung fu community is impressed. we're actually cringing when we watch.

tattooedmonk

10-18-2012, 09:08 PM

oh you're asking him if he'd ever done what you did. cool. :rolleyes:I think everyone does or has...:rolleyes::confused:

Syn7

10-19-2012, 12:46 AM

Funny, so you have never lied , had something you said be blown out of proportion or mistakenly given out information that wasnt true or correct? you must be an idiot or out of touch with reality, which is it?

Sure I've lied. TONS. But I have never lied on that level to so many people for profit. I have never lied as a mentor. I have never lied to people in order to give a fraudulent financial venture more credibility on a long term basis. This went on for YEARS!!! If it wasn't for the legal drama and the net, he'd still be lying. In fact I would bet the farm that he is still lying. I have never lied to parents of children who trust me to be honest about what I am teaching to their kids. It's just not the same thing. If something I said gets blown out of proportion I do not go with it for my own benefit. I correct the incorrect info IMMEDIATELY....!!! I have done many things that are wrong, but not that. I couldn't even be bothered to argue with Sin The himself. As far as I'm concerned the guy is a complete train wreck write off. It's the victims that I am interested in. And I can honestly say that I have never EVER stuck up for somebody who disrespected me like that. Regardless of their value. NEVER! There are so many options out there, why side with a liar when you can just hop skip and jump across the street to somebody who is honest to you and respects you enough to not bullsh1t you in order to build up credibility for the purposes of lil dikc syndrome and financial gain. What is so difficult about that?

I'm tired of repeating myself. You all should know the famous Einstein insanity quote(you can google it KC and TTM). I don't expect some of you to give ground. I stay for the ones that have. The ones that are willing to admit fault on occasion. You know, the real men. Like JP. I wanna understand this loyalty. I have my theories, but I'm always open to new ideas.

Syn7

10-19-2012, 12:50 AM

i'm still waiting for your proof. :D

tik tok tik tok tik tok tic tok tic tok

We should start a pool. Try to guess how many he finds. Then guess how many are HSCLF or are ex HSCLF or learned from a CLF cat, how many are SD or ex SD or affiliated in some way or another, and how many got it from DFWs book. Am I missing any options?

Orion Paximus

10-19-2012, 05:05 AM

jesus christ people are you really having this conversation in two different threads? PICK ONE

Old Noob

10-19-2012, 06:24 AM

I get it. He either lied in the dep or he lied to his students. That makes him a liar who lacks integrity. Nothing difficult about it. Both options are unacceptable when it comes to somebody who is supposed to be a role model. It's even worse because he is selling this false image. This case isn't deep people. It's shallow as fukc. No confusion here.

You do realize that words taken in deposition can be and are used in a court of law, right? Had the case gone all the way, those depositions would have been entered. FOR SURE.

So why was the case settled? Who gave in and why? Was there a compromise?

No doubt he's a liar. That wasn't my point. I was refuting the claim that the "system" had been found to be a "fraud" in a court of law. That's false and doesn't even logically stem from the lies nothwithstanding your correct assertion that deposition testimony can be used later for some purposes at trial. So, to more directly answer your question, both Sin The and Jake likely gave in (though we won't know for sure because there's likely a confidentiality agreement that was part of the settlement) but the reason for the settlement had to have been because Sin The's lawyer rightly recognized that his copyright is not defensable given his contradictory stories about the origins of the material that he holds the copyright for. None of that says anything about the legitimacy or the system. Rather it speaks to the legitimacy of the systems origins as told by Sin The.

To me, this isn't just a semantic point either. I and some others in SD, JP for instance, have said for some time that, if Sin The did make it all up, then he's a genious at curriculum development and progressive skill integration. Consequently, the system, insofar as it is a solid MA system that produces usable skills and provides a breadth of forms practice, is a good system. It's origin is highly suspect. I view those as different and not bound up part and parcel. I'm 100% willing to say that the system's origin, as put forth by Sin The, is completely unbelievable. But that's because he has himself cited two mutually exclusive origin stories. The system itself, though, is a useful legitimate martial art.

My most recent thinking on the origin is that Sin is lying about having made it up in order to try to protect his copyright. I think that he and his brother learned almost all of it from Ie. They may have tweaked the short katas and sparring techniques to make them easier for the KY fellas but I don't think he created anything from whole cloth. Please don't think that means that I believe any of this came "straight from the temple."

I'm rambling so I'll stop now but that's why I made the legal distinction.

Old Noob

10-19-2012, 06:38 AM

Personally, I don't really care about SD as a style and whether it is effective or not. I wouldn't bother with it, but that's just me. My whole interest is in the Stockholm thing going on. How people would show loyalty to somebody who lied to them, whether directly or indirectly.

You people really need to start writing sh1t down and taking notes if you can't keep who said what separated in your mind. We don't all have the same arguments and we don't all agree with eachother 100% all the time. We all just think SD is fukced up for one reason or another.

Lumping us all in one HATER category shows a complete lack of understanding and a general inability to sort out the arguments being put to you and addressing them individually.

The only generalizations I make about ALL SD students is that they all show or or showed allegiance to somebody who lied to them. This is insane to me. OK, so if you didn't know, I get that. But now you know. WTF?

I honestly believe that because some have put so much time into SD that they validate staying on board in one way or another in order to not have to face some very simple facts. If that's insulting, so be it. I am not sorry. But I will and have been listening. Some make sense, some are just backsliding slowly into their own oblivion.

Some of us are paying attention and responding to specific points.

I am loyal to my Sifu. The very vast majority of the time, my being an SD practitioner does not require me to partake of the BS. On the one occasion that the GM has visited my school, I attended testing and his seminar, mostly out of respect for my Sifu (and because I wanted to see the man who had generated this 1000-page thread), and then when he left I went right back to training. I've only been to Lexington once (to watch friends test) and don't go to their tournaments and demos. I like the art and my Sifu's expression of it. I like my school. I think the origin story is bunk but whatever. I don't take martial arts for a story.

Empty_Cup

10-19-2012, 06:46 AM

No doubt he's a liar. That wasn't my point. I was refuting the claim that the "system" had been found to be a "fraud" in a court of law. That's false and doesn't even logically stem from the lies nothwithstanding your correct assertion that deposition testimony can be used later for some purposes at trial. So, to more directly answer your question, both Sin The and Jake likely gave in (though we won't know for sure because there's likely a confidentiality agreement that was part of the settlement) but the reason for the settlement had to have been because Sin The's lawyer rightly recognized that his copyright is not defensable given his contradictory stories about the origins of the material that he holds the copyright for. None of that says anything about the legitimacy or the system. Rather it speaks to the legitimacy of the systems origins as told by Sin The.

To me, this isn't just a semantic point either. I and some others in SD, JP for instance, have said for some time that, if Sin The did make it all up, then he's a genious at curriculum development and progressive skill integration. Consequently, the system, insofar as it is a solid MA system that produces usable skills and provides a breadth of forms practice, is a good system. It's origin is highly suspect. I view those as different and not bound up part and parcel. I'm 100% willing to say that the system's origin, as put forth by Sin The, is completely unbelievable. But that's because he has himself cited two mutually exclusive origin stories. The system itself, though, is a useful legitimate martial art.

My most recent thinking on the origin is that Sin is lying about having made it up in order to try to protect his copyright. I think that he and his brother learned almost all of it from Ie. They may have tweaked the short katas and sparring techniques to make them easier for the KY fellas but I don't think he created anything from whole cloth. Please don't think that means that I believe any of this came "straight from the temple."

I'm rambling so I'll stop now but that's why I made the legal distinction.

Good post. This is my current thinking as well. I'm still open to the idea that it originated in the temple but since there is almost no information to prove that argument it's pointless to speculate.

Judge Pen

10-19-2012, 07:12 AM

Judge Pen

10-19-2012, 07:16 AM

I don't expect some of you to give ground. I stay for the ones that have. The ones that are willing to admit fault on occasion. You know, the real men. Like JP. I wanna understand this loyalty. I have my theories, but I'm always open to new ideas.

What do you want to know? Why I started SD? Why I quit the first time? Why I went back to it? Why I'm not training in it now? I'm pretty sure I've answered all these questions in the course of the dialouge, but I'm all about having constructive conversations.

As far as admitting fault, I fall back on the words of Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

Judge Pen

10-19-2012, 07:20 AM

No doubt he's a liar. That wasn't my point. I was refuting the claim that the "system" had been found to be a "fraud" in a court of law. That's false and doesn't even logically stem from the lies nothwithstanding your correct assertion that deposition testimony can be used later for some purposes at trial. So, to more directly answer your question, both Sin The and Jake likely gave in (though we won't know for sure because there's likely a confidentiality agreement that was part of the settlement) but the reason for the settlement had to have been because Sin The's lawyer rightly recognized that his copyright is not defensable given his contradictory stories about the origins of the material that he holds the copyright for. None of that says anything about the legitimacy or the system. Rather it speaks to the legitimacy of the systems origins as told by Sin The.

To me, this isn't just a semantic point either. I and some others in SD, JP for instance, have said for some time that, if Sin The did make it all up, then he's a genious at curriculum development and progressive skill integration. Consequently, the system, insofar as it is a solid MA system that produces usable skills and provides a breadth of forms practice, is a good system. It's origin is highly suspect. I view those as different and not bound up part and parcel. I'm 100% willing to say that the system's origin, as put forth by Sin The, is completely unbelievable. But that's because he has himself cited two mutually exclusive origin stories. The system itself, though, is a useful legitimate martial art.

My most recent thinking on the origin is that Sin is lying about having made it up in order to try to protect his copyright. I think that he and his brother learned almost all of it from Ie. They may have tweaked the short katas and sparring techniques to make them easier for the KY fellas but I don't think he created anything from whole cloth. Please don't think that means that I believe any of this came "straight from the temple."

I'm rambling so I'll stop now but that's why I made the legal distinction.

Very well said. I'll add to it that I think much of it was modified based on Sin The's personal talents and skills and what he liked, didn't like or what he thought his students could learn at the time. Remember, early on the curriculim was smaller and focused more on conditioning and fighting. I think later, after financial difficulty, he started teaching more and more forms and probably using other's materials and calling it his own in order to keep up with the demand for more forms.

I think if you look at his brother's site, you will see a smaller curriculim. What overlaps there was probably the material that Sin The was actually taught in Indonesia.

Old Noob

10-19-2012, 08:04 AM

Very well said. I'll add to it that I think much of it was modified based on Sin The's personal talents and skills and what he liked, didn't like or what he thought his students could learn at the time. Remember, early on the curriculim was smaller and focused more on conditioning and fighting. I think later, after financial difficulty, he started teaching more and more forms and probably using other's materials and calling it his own in order to keep up with the demand for more forms.

I think if you look at his brother's site, you will see a smaller curriculim. What overlaps there was probably the material that Sin The was actually taught in Indonesia.

I think that's exactly right. Hiang's material up to 1st black is almost identical, including the short kata and sparring techinques. There's an expansion of the bird, which we now know is because Hiang learned those from a different teacher at Ie's school but, generally, there's less upper belt material there.

GeneChing

10-19-2012, 09:22 AM

Just because it's a pain in the butt to have to read the flaming on two threads...:rolleyes:

As far as admitting fault, I fall back on the words of Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Nice quote drop. Sort of sums it all up now, doesn't it? ;)

GeneChing

10-19-2012, 09:28 AM

if you had a lineage like mine, you'd be proud too. i'm so happy we never had the tags of frauds, liars, sexual misconduct and the like. Lau Bun was called the Sage of the Martial World.
Don't get me wrong. I have great respect for GM Lau Bun and personally sought out Sifu Dino for the SEP+OCT 09 cover story (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=830) (note that I seldom go after our cover story like that - they come to me - in fact, I usually have to beat them back with a stick). Nevertheless, the history of your lineage crosses into dark society with Tong connections. Be careful where you tread here.

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 09:51 AM

Don't get me wrong. I have great respect for GM Lau Bun and personally sought out Sifu Dino for the SEP+OCT 09 cover story (note that I seldom go after our cover story like that - they come to me - in fact, I usually have to beat them back with a stick). Nevertheless, the history of your lineage crosses into dark society with Tong connections. Be careful where you tread here.

Even in a dark society there is light. I am proud of my lineage for NOT being a bunch of criminals but for being a good, stand up, fighting school who for almost 8 decades participate in annual charity work. Within our lineage, specifically under my sifu, we have students who became military, police officers, and honest business men. One of my own students is becoming a doctor. Lau Bun, Jew Leong and my Sifu have all been rightly given huge respect for WHO they are, not for their connections.

You won't read about anyone from my lineage being involved in crime, especially under my sifu. and you won't find anyone in my lineage faking the funk like Shaolin Do.

Jimbo

10-19-2012, 09:53 AM

Just because it's a pain in the butt to have to read the flaming on two threads...:rolleyes:

Nice quote drop. Sort of sums it all up now, doesn't it? ;)

That's too bad, because some of the posts dealing with the 5-Animal form and also CLF were informative.

I agree 100 percent with Orion Paximus's post.

GeneChing

10-19-2012, 10:02 AM

I respect it enough to keep quiet and be humble. It's like the first rule of fight club... ;)

GeneChing

10-19-2012, 10:04 AM

I just like to keep my SD flame wars caged into one thread here, so as not to muddle the rest of the Shaolin forum too much. ;)

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 10:07 AM

I respect it enough to keep quiet and be humble. It's like the first rule of fight club...
__________________

on that note, i'm going back into my dark society, where there is much less whackiness. :cool:

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 10:31 AM

I laughed for about 5 minutes...

then I cried, a little, because there are so many who have this

then I laughed again...

TGY......too funny

buddajoe

10-19-2012, 10:34 AM

Bob Cook has big hands but not that big. my classmate used a wide angle lens.

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 10:35 AM

Bob Cook has big hands but not that big. my classmate used a wide angle lens.

i always wanted to know about that. when i first saw his hands i was like WTF....

Orion Paximus

10-19-2012, 10:41 AM

Don't get me wrong. I have great respect for GM Lau Bun and personally sought out Sifu Dino for the SEP+OCT 09 cover story (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=830) (note that I seldom go after our cover story like that - they come to me - in fact, I usually have to beat them back with a stick).

WHY ARE YOU NOT RETURNING MY CALLS, GENE? MY NUDE KUNG FU STYLE IS PERFECT FOR THE NEXT COVER! It's GOLD, Gene, GOLD!!

Orion Paximus

10-19-2012, 10:44 AM

Joseph Eagar is another dude with abnormally large hands. http://www.eagarkungfu.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=121719554

he's prone to wearing those southern wrist guards that only accentuate it. I dunno but it freaks me out.

Jimbo

10-19-2012, 10:47 AM

I've seen video of two different Chinese masters (thinly built) who had freakishly large hands/long fingers. I know that one of them was a Fut Gar master, and I think the other was also a southern stylist. Almost like Nosferatu's hands.

tattooedmonk

10-19-2012, 11:25 AM

Don't get me wrong. I have great respect for GM Lau Bun and personally sought out Sifu Dino for the SEP+OCT 09 cover story (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=830) (note that I seldom go after our cover story like that - they come to me - in fact, I usually have to beat them back with a stick). Nevertheless, the history of your lineage crosses into dark society with Tong connections. Be careful where you tread here.I know right???:eek::rolleyes:

Judge Pen

10-19-2012, 11:54 AM

the opening section is exactly as Jake has it, minus his lack of understanding of this form. move for move.

Sure, but I'd like to see someone with a proper understanding of all the fundamentals of the form with the benefit of years of training under the lineage of the form show his expression of the form. If the form is move-for-move the same then what's the harm?

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 12:04 PM

Sure, but I'd like to see someone with a proper understanding of all the fundamentals of the form with the benefit of years of training under the lineage of the form show his expression of the form. If the form is move-for-move the same then what's the harm?

really? i won't speak on it because i don't trust the reason behind wanting to see someone do it the right way. i'm sorry. that's the truth. if i never found jakes version of our form, i would be glad to show you because when i make video's of our stuff i chop it and mix it up so people like jake don't copy it and try to teach it.

what matters to me is that shaolin do doesn't have the form as it should be done. buddha joe, drake, and more than a few others know that your lineage took our form from the book. it's my personal POV that the less you know the better. Sin The and Jake has done enough damage to our treasured form. an outright shame. in fact, i took down all my video's on this form because of unwanted thievery.

Syn7

10-19-2012, 12:09 PM

I know right???:eek::rolleyes:

Look at this kid pretending like he knows. You will ride anyone who comes anywhere near agreeing with you or is critical of what you have been critical of. I hope you're just a kid. That's some serious social weakness right there.

Why don't you give us a history lesson on the good and bad of the Tong Gene speaks of. Shiiiiit, you will need a google search just to learn the name, let alone drop any real knowledge.

If you wanna argue and debate, that's all good. You don't even have to be nice about it, most of us have thick enough skin. But quit frontin'. It's transparent as fukc.

Judge Pen

10-19-2012, 12:13 PM

really? i won't speak on it because i don't trust the reason behind wanting to see someone do it the right way. i'm sorry. that's the truth. if i never found jakes version of our form, i would be glad to show you because when i make video's of our stuff i chop it and mix it up so people like jake don't copy it and try to teach it.

what matters to me is that shaolin do doesn't have the form as it should be done. buddha joe, drake, and more than a few others know that your lineage took our form from the book. it's my personal POV that the less you know the better. Sin The and Jake has done enough damage to our treasured form. an outright shame.

Man, I now believe that it was learned from a book. I didn't know that when I was taught it by my teacher. It's your form so you can do what you want. I thought you said the opening sequence was the same move for move.

You don't have to trust me, though I've never made a dime off of SD and have never stolen a form from anyone (only learned forms that I later learned were stolen but didn't know at the time).

The opening sequence of that form is one of the more difficult things to do right and make it look good and it would be nice to see someone do it really well. That's all.

Empty_Cup

10-19-2012, 12:18 PM

Man, I now believe that it was learned from a book. I didn't know that when I was taught it by my teacher. It's your form so you can do what you want. I thought you said the opening sequence was the same move for move.

You don't have to trust me, though I've never made a dime off of SD and have never stolen a form from anyone (only learned forms that I later learned were stolen but didn't know at the time).

The opening sequence of that form is one of the more difficult things to do right and make it look good and it would be nice to see someone do it really well. That's all.

I read your request as seeing hsk perform the opening sequence for expression only. Meaning, he could perform the opening sequence WITH the markers as published by DFW in his video and it could still achieve the goal.

So, again, what's the harm in demonstrating something that's already public domain?

Judge Pen

10-19-2012, 12:28 PM

i did say that. and i stand by that. don't believe me. show buddhajoe, or ben gash, or anyone else that is from my lineage here. drake can show his teacher the video and i know what he'd say before he says it. from the moment the form starts to the spreading of the arms in a crane stance to the guard then up and down on one leg and everything done on one leg......dude im publicly telling you it is the same same same. ON MY SIFU'S HONOR......i'm tellin you the truth. nuff said.

with this form, you're not going to. my sifu is aware and available if you want to come to SF and learn it the proper way. hell, get it corrected. up to you.

my sifu is aware and available if you want to come to SF and learn it the proper way. hell, get it corrected. up to you.

Frank, I'm not doubting you. That's why I don't understand why it would be an issue. Regardless I'd love to come out to San Fran and train with your sifu. I've had the honor of seeing him teach in the past.

Old Noob

10-19-2012, 12:39 PM

Old Noob

10-19-2012, 12:44 PM

don't be mad. its not that serious. :D

i accept your apology copper! :p

Who's copper?

Empty_Cup

10-19-2012, 12:49 PM

I think Frank is just repetitively loading up the thread again so that when it hits 1000, he can pull his posts again. Otherwise, he's guilty of what Syn7 said earlier about categorizing us and lumping us all in together. I'll break it down for you Frank.

JP and I believe that Sin The probably got the form from DFW's book.

Empty cup is open to the possibility that it came from DFW's book but is not convinced that it couldn't have come from anywhere else.

TTM believes that the form definitely could have come from somewhere else but I don't believe he's taken a firm position of whether Sin definitely got it from Ie or the temple.

If I misrepresented any of you, my humble apologies.

You represented my position well. In fact, I nominate you as the official "summer-upper" of this thread :)

That aside, I still don't understand why hsk does not want to perform the opening sequence of this form, WITH markers. For folks interested in seeing how drastically Jake missed the expression, why not do this to contrast and compare?

Judge Pen

10-19-2012, 12:57 PM

cause jakes version (his execution of the techniques) are all wrong. i don't want you seeing how they are done properly so you or anyone can go back watch the video and correct your movements.

she me YOURS.

For one small section? Really? I'll tell you what, I have me on video doing the form. I'll put up the first section if you will. You are free to tear apart my expression of the form and tell me how wrong it is (you'd probably be right). Deal?

Orion Paximus

10-19-2012, 01:11 PM

I will pay everyone a million fake internet dollars to quit talking about this form. WHO CARES?! If SD stole it and their version sucks, then people will either figure it out or they won't. If DFW is the only real teacher of the form, then if it's that important someone who really wants to learn CLF will seek him out and learn it.

None of it matters because ultimately SD isn't solely relying on a CFL form to make it's money and the students that DFW or his disciples would have would never be caught dead in an SD school anyway, there is practically zero crossover.

taai gihk yahn

10-19-2012, 01:21 PM

Funny, so you have never lied , had something you said be blown out of proportion or mistakenly given out information that wasnt true or correct? you must be an idiot or out of touch with reality, which is it?

Are u really this thick? everyone has lied, in different ways; however, when you hold yourself up as a supposed example of proper conduct to a group of followers, there's a different level of expectation; Syn7 isn't holding himself out as a model of truth, justice and the American way to people, whereas Sin The is; so the expectation is that he lives up to his own PR; do you seriously not see the difference? or r u just committed to your suicidal douchebaggery trajectory?

- hugs and kisses, your BFF, DlCK BREATH

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 01:30 PM

suicidal douchebaggery trajectory

is there a method to protect ourselves from this? what kind of defense can we get our hands on to deal with this?

DUCK!!!!!!!!!!

incoming suicidal douchebaggery projectiles!:D

i saved your fakkin lives. you owe me now.

Judge Pen

10-19-2012, 01:35 PM

make the video. i will mention what you may be doing incorrectly. but if i do this, i will be privately and not for the world to see.

Sure. I'm not a computer savvy guy, but I'll load it on youtube with a private link and send it to you if you will do the same. I'll be glad to post my poor expression for the world to see, but understand if you don't want to do the same.

Judge Pen

10-19-2012, 01:42 PM

if i do this it will only be private. however i'll be back in a moment. looking at a video i made that may answer your question

I will keep your video private. I will put mine out there for everyone to, justifiably, rip to shreads.

taai gihk yahn

10-19-2012, 01:55 PM

is there a method to protect ourselves from this? what kind of defense can we get our hands on to deal with this?
if do correct, no can defense...

DUCK!!!!!!!!!!

incoming suicidal douchebaggery projectiles!:D

i saved your fakkin lives. you owe me now.
LOL...I think we have a new meme...

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 02:09 PM

LOL...I think we have a new meme...

HAHA

Suicidal Douchebaggery

Shaolin Do

sounds right to me!

tattooedmonk

10-19-2012, 04:11 PM

here's me doing a sword form a few years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a9Fk-zYCk4&feature=plcp
I'm no world champion, but I will hold it without hesitation up as incomparably superior to ANYTHING shown on either of those vids; (also, the glare off of my bald pate may be a bit much, you may want to adjust the contrast on ur screen)

r u serious? those performances were done in a large venue in front of hundreds of people, w Sin The in attendance; if demonstrating clearly fabricated sets and suck-asz technique is the motivating factor for SD "friends and family" to come together, then I suppose it's mission accomplished; regardless, it's all still a steaming plate of dung...

right, because when you are doing a demonstration, you are CLEARLY not performing :confused::confused::confused:
(at least now we get to see the practical application of SD indoctrination; right up there with 2+2=5, I warrant);

you keep trying to probe my childhood from a pseudo-psychological perspective; what is your motivation for projecting in this manner? perhaps you were gang-raped in the locker room at school? yes, that would seem to be the case...

what I am "taking" are videos that clearly show senior SD people, including the head of the style, and what I am "reading into" it is that they doing total crap-asz garbage, and passing it off as something good; I know that simple cause and effect concepts are hard for you to understand, what with all the surgery you needed to repair your damaged jaw and asz-hole after the gang raping (see above for how I insightfully discerned this about you) and all the medication you still need to be on afterwards, but please try to at least keep up on at least a basic level...

loves and huggsies - DlCK BREATHwhat I am saying once again is, that not everyone does it for the same reasons, with the same intent and purpose . you 3 or 4 sorry slobs happen to be talking a great deal of SH!T about those that you havent met or know in anyway. you are baseing your judgements on bits of film that do not truely reflect their practice or what they get out of it other than fun.

now keep in mind I have high standards. But I think a great deal of it is average for the masses, who dont do forms for performance , trophies, or anything other than for social interaction, staying, fit hobbie or whatever.

I believe they should have a group that just does the performance aspect and really get down to the meat and potatoes of any martial art: train hard smart and fight.:eek::D:cool:

its great you feel so strongly about your practice and what you know and do , but when you judge and criticize and say things like you guys do, it just doesnt reflect well on who you are as a person or where you are really coming from...:cool:

tattooedmonk

10-19-2012, 04:21 PM

Are u really this thick? everyone has lied, in different ways; however, when you hold yourself up as a supposed example of proper conduct to a group of followers, there's a different level of expectation; Syn7 isn't holding himself out as a model of truth, justice and the American way to people, whereas Sin The is; so the expectation is that he lives up to his own PR; do you seriously not see the difference? or r u just committed to your suicidal douchebaggery trajectory?

- hugs and kisses, your BFF, DlCK BREATHthats not what I am talking about....you just dont get it because you arent in the know and have never been in the know and it is easier to make fun from the outside with minimal information and talk sh!t behind a keyboard.

why not ask questions from people that know rather than make make blankets statements, based on minimal, if any real factual information.

Judge Pen

10-19-2012, 04:51 PM

I've already posted a video that clearly proves what i am saying. But i've realized that if is show this to you not only will you see its the same form, but you will see the proper way to execute the moves. So i change my mind. And i'm taking down that video.

Check it out with my sifu.

So not even privately would you show one small section? Really? Ok. Whatever. :rolleyes:

bawang

10-19-2012, 05:07 PM

Is this the correct form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klm3AaYMi5I

bawang

10-19-2012, 05:25 PM

HAHA

Suicidal Douchebaggery

Shaolin Do

sounds right to me!

more like **** on Dick

Sima Rong

10-19-2012, 05:27 PM

Everyone involved in this conversation on Shaolin-Do needs to consider this form carefully and check it against their own.

bawang

10-19-2012, 05:31 PM

Everyone involved in this conversation on Shaolin-Do needs to consider this form carefully and check it against their own.

the secret of hung sing five animals is the unification of heaven, earth, and man. if shaolin do corrects their form and remove the qi blocking markers, they will unlock the internal secrets of the form.

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 05:31 PM

more like **** on ****

or Sukkin D1ck

bawang

10-19-2012, 05:38 PM

the hairy guy never passed that down.

maybe he was the green grass monk.

green grass= nickname for hairy body like grassy fields of fut san

right now i see a lot of qi blockage in the shaolin do version of the forms.

bawang

10-19-2012, 05:42 PM

i have hung mun drawings of Monk Ching Cho. none show him as being anywhere near as hairy as the monkey king.

maybe he was shaved that day. the hair grow back very fast.

you cannot deny your deep connection to shaolin do, frank. they are your hung sing brothers, united in jesus christ.

they are the long lost kung fu brothers of lau bun.

bawang

10-19-2012, 05:44 PM

or Sukkin D1ck

that makes me feel good, which i cannot say for shaolin do.

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 05:46 PM

that makes me feel good, which i cannot say for shaolin do.

the thought of Shaolin Do gives me this nervous twitch over my left eye. my neighbor thought i was winking at him. :(

bawang

10-19-2012, 05:46 PM

r u angry at me for posting ur lineages real form

forgive me frank

bawang

10-19-2012, 05:50 PM

i am crying tears, i am crying tears

hung sing is dominate

bawang

10-19-2012, 05:52 PM

the thought of Shaolin Do gives me this nervous twitch over my left eye. my neighbor thought i was winking at him. :(

when i think of shaolin do, people die. i turn into incredible hulk, but yellow.

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 05:57 PM

when i think of shaolin do, people die. i turn into incredible hulk, but yellow.

oh i've heard of you. around here they call you YULK.

bawang

10-19-2012, 06:06 PM

so does anyone know if shaolin do is for reals

bawang

10-19-2012, 06:37 PM

wats wit the d1ck breath thing

taai gihk yahn

10-19-2012, 06:37 PM

thats not what I am talking about....you just dont get it because you arent in the know and have never been in the know and it is easier to make fun from the outside with minimal information and talk sh!t behind a keyboard.
yeah, sure what do I know? let me ask you, Mr. In-the-know - the sword form I linked to - right at the beginning, what am I tracing in the air w the Gim Sao Yan (Sword Finger Mudra)? if you are so "in the know" about TCMA, then you should easily identify what is happening in the opening; if you can't, then just STFU about being in the know...

as for sitting behind a keyboard talking **** - I PROMISE you that were I sitting in front of any SD'r, I'd be saying the same thing - the only difference would be that I'd be unable to control either my tears or laughter while doing so...

why not ask questions from people that know rather than make make blankets statements, based on minimal, if any real factual information.
the minimal information upon which I base my assessment is a video of your system's grandmaster demonstrating forms and applications in a manner that reeks of rotten intestinal output; I mean, he drops the friggin nunchucks during a compliant demo! and he performs a form where it's CLEAR that he isn't sure what move to do next!

how do you possibly explain this all away? but then again, you are willing to believe that the originator of ur system was Jo Jo the Dog Faced Boy...

oh yeah, I'm the one who is delusional...:rolleyes:

taai gihk yahn

10-19-2012, 06:39 PM

the thought of Shaolin Do gives me this nervous twitch over my left eye. my neighbor thought i was winking at him. :(

r u saying that SD made you gay, Frank?

I bet that they could also teach u to pray away the gay...

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 06:40 PM

r u saying that SD made you gay, Frank?

I bet that they could also teach u to pray away the gay...

god help me :(

tattooedmonk

10-19-2012, 06:41 PM

and this statement of the obvious makes what point about anything?

I don't need to meet or know someone to discern if their level in terms of form is any good; I also don't need to know them to be able to see if the form is valid or a piece of cr@p;

are you serious? those little bits of film show the grandmaster of the system demonstrating a) some BS iron crutch form that he can't even seem to remember; b) lame asz nunchaku techniques against spear and for both being applauded as if he were the greatest thing since sliced bread; while you may be able to explain away the fact that someone can be a high level black belt in a system suck-jobbing it up as reflective of their own perspective on the practice, how do u explain the grandmaster performing in a decidedly mediocre manner? or do u seriously think that what he shows is anything more than journeyman level (at best)?

it's not only the performance - it's the content, which clearly is based on Sin The's perception that he can show people any old thing that looks "kung fury" and they will buy it;

I don't giv a rat's asz what u think about me as a person or where you think I am coming from; u r the ones with fabricated content and one of the single most insane lineage stories I've encountered, and as long as a single person remains who touts SD as anything other than a complete jerry-rigged mockery, I will call them out on it;

get ready; a storm is coming...

snuggly wugglies - DlCK BREATHobviously you cant see anythingother than your perspective , hows the view of your colon?:rolleyes::eek::D

taai gihk yahn

10-19-2012, 06:43 PM

Shaolin Do turned Frank into a hom0sexual;

this insult to gay men and women everywhere will not be tolerated...:p

tattooedmonk

10-19-2012, 06:46 PM

yeah, sure what do I know? let me ask you, Mr. In-the-know - the sword form I linked to - right at the beginning, what am I tracing in the air w the Gim Sao Yan (Sword Finger Mudra)? if you are so "in the know" about TCMA, then you should easily identify what is happening in the opening; if you can't, then just STFU about being in the know...

as for sitting behind a keyboard talking **** - I PROMISE you that were I sitting in front of any SD'r, I'd be saying the same thing - the only difference would be that I'd be unable to control either my tears or laughter while doing so...

the minimal information upon which I base my assessment is a video of your system's grandmaster demonstrating forms and applications in a manner that reeks of rotten intestinal output; I mean, he drops the friggin nunchucks during a compliant demo! and he performs a form where it's CLEAR that he isn't sure what move to do next!

how do you possibly explain this all away? but then again, you are willing to believe that the originator of ur system was Jo Jo the Dog Faced Boy...

oh yeah, I'm the one who is delusional...:rolleyes:my system? I didnt create it. Nor am I a part of it . I am just attempting to get you to see things outside the bowels of your existance.:cool::rolleyes:

taai gihk yahn

10-19-2012, 06:52 PM

my system? I didnt create it. Nor am I a part of it . I am just attempting to get you to see things outside the bowels of your existance.:cool::rolleyes:

them please explain, how is it that Sin The, the legendary great-granmaster of Shaolin Do, turns in a performance so lame and stunted, that the angels tear off their wings and even demons doubt their resolve? what possible explanation could exist that explains away the fact that his performance was an abomination to all things both sacred and profane?

and why r u continualy fascinated by my lower intestinal tract? what is wrong with you, man?

bawang

10-19-2012, 06:55 PM

posin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xcly0coJw

lololoololol

taai gihk yahn

10-19-2012, 06:57 PM

posin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xcly0coJw

lololoololol

Shaolin Do Two-Person Combat Form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GugeH9xd9zE

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 06:58 PM

oh lord help me, they know im gay!:(

have mercy on my soul

bawang

10-19-2012, 07:03 PM

oh lord help me, they know im gay!:(

have mercy on my soul

sin the will take you to the moons of jupiter

taai gihk yahn

10-19-2012, 07:04 PM

sin the will take you to the moons of jupiter

did ur mom change her hair-do?

hskwarrior

10-19-2012, 07:11 PM

sin the will take you to the moons of jupiter

i prefer Moons over my Hammy

Crushing Step

10-19-2012, 08:57 PM

posin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xcly0coJw

lololoololol

That "praying mantis" at 0:38-0:43 shows exactly zero understanding of the mantis hand. A little part of me died on the inside...

taai gihk yahn

10-19-2012, 09:34 PM

That "praying mantis" at 0:38-0:43 shows exactly zero understanding of the mantis hand. A little part of me died on the inside...

see? he's that good that he can kill you (albeit in small bits) just by performing the form...

but srsly, yeah, that mantis is pathetic; of course, the SD people will say "that's just how we play it" :rolleyes:

Empty_Cup

10-20-2012, 05:28 AM

That "praying mantis" at 0:38-0:43 shows exactly zero understanding of the mantis hand. A little part of me died on the inside...

Do you consider this a better expression/understanding of mantis?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rum8HfHYLRI

hskwarrior

10-20-2012, 07:27 AM

Do you consider this a better expression/understanding of mantis?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rum8HfHYLRI

even if he does, you don't plan on learning what you see in that video are you? why don't you have video of your own expression?

Kellen Bassette

10-20-2012, 07:31 AM

That video was awesome HSK....funny thing is a lot of Kung Fu schools do use the Black to White ranking system with their sashes....crazy China-men from Thailand..

tattooedmonk

10-20-2012, 08:12 AM

Do you consider this a better expression/understanding of mantis?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rum8HfHYLRI

That's southern mantis, it's different.

Crushing Step

10-20-2012, 08:36 AM

Do you consider this a better expression/understanding of mantis?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rum8HfHYLRI

That's "southern" mantis, which evolved completely separate from "northern" mantis, no relation at all, and I cannot really comment if it was good for southern mantis. Their interprettion of the mantis, I believe, is to use the hands in a whipping motion, possibly similar to the chun. I would ask a southern mantis practicioner for a better answer.

The "mantis hand" in northern mantis is what sin the was badly attempting to do in the SD video.

The index finger "poke" that sin the was doing was silly. The northern style hand is not meant to be a gay-@ss finger poke, rather the hand form is the final position from a grab-twist-pull movement. That was our interpretation of the mantis, to reach out, grab the opponent, and draw him back in. The fingers curl in from the pinky first, and finally with the the index finger sticking out. Kind of like the crane hook hand in tai chi's "single whip" movement. That hand is not in any way meant to be a "poke", but a hand form that symbolizes a grabbing motion.

I hope that was clear as mud...

Crushing Step

10-20-2012, 08:39 AM

Northern mantis hand: Hook, Grapple, Pluck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tk_LhEpgQE

Judge Pen

10-20-2012, 11:04 AM

hskwarrior

10-20-2012, 11:20 AM

That was not Southern Mantis. Not even close.

question. when you thought Shaolin Do was really shaolin, how would you know what real southern mantis looks like? did you learn from a mantis teacher?? just a question

tattooedmonk

10-20-2012, 12:58 PM

look , you are responding and you dont even know what you are responding to anymore. stupid:rolleyes::eek:

tattooedmonk

10-20-2012, 01:03 PM

That's "southern" mantis, which evolved completely separate from "northern" mantis, no relation at all, and I cannot really comment if it was good for southern mantis. Their interprettion of the mantis, I believe, is to use the hands in a whipping motion, possibly similar to the chun. I would ask a southern mantis practicioner for a better answer.

The "mantis hand" in northern mantis is what sin the was badly attempting to do in the SD video.

The index finger "poke" that sin the was doing was silly. The northern style hand is not meant to be a gay-@ss finger poke, rather the hand form is the final position from a grab-twist-pull movement. That was our interpretation of the mantis, to reach out, grab the opponent, and draw him back in. The fingers curl in from the pinky first, and finally with the the index finger sticking out. Kind of like the crane hook hand in tai chi's "single whip" movement. That hand is not in any way meant to be a "poke", but a hand form that symbolizes a grabbing motion.

I hope that was clear as mud... I agree with you about most of this and understand completely.

So, your mantis style never uses fingers to poke or to shape the forearm for mantis elbows and techniques?

hskwarrior

10-20-2012, 01:04 PM

ook , you are responding and you dont even know what you are responding to anymore. stupid

u wear panties don't you? :eek:

taai gihk yahn

10-20-2012, 01:38 PM

u wear panties don't you? :eek:

and evidently Shaolin Do panties come pre-bunched...

taai gihk yahn

10-20-2012, 01:41 PM

That was not Southern Mantis. Not even close.

um, actually it is; Chow Ga is a distinct line, different from some lineages (e.g. - Jook Lum), but still clearly w/in the realm of Nam Tong Long

hskwarrior

10-20-2012, 02:07 PM

and evidently Shaolin Do panties come pre-bunched...

man i spit out my drink on that one. fak now i have to clean my keyboard. dammmmm you hahhahhaha

tooooo **** funny

Crushing Step

10-20-2012, 09:04 PM

[QUOTE=Crushing Step;1193103]That's "southern" mantis, which evolved completely separate from "northern" mantis, no relation at all, and I cannot really comment if it was good for southern mantis. Their interprettion of the mantis, I believe, is to use the hands in a whipping motion, possibly similar to the chun. I would ask a southern mantis practicioner for a better answer.

[QUOTE]

That was not Southern Mantis. Not even close.

You do realize that I was commenting on this one right?

http://youtu.be/Rum8HfHYLRI

The one labelled "Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu (Chow Gar): Um Gen Sau Form"?

If that's not southern mantis I stand corrected.

buddajoe

10-20-2012, 09:10 PM

"So, your mantis style never uses fingers to poke or to shape the forearm for mantis elbows and techniques?"
Reply With Quote
Whenever i see these remarks about praying mantis using finger pokes with a dil sou(proper term) I know that individual just has no clue. Watch the late Brendan Lai and you may learn something.
http://youtu.be/1M7M7rLxcYg
The video http://youtu.be/Fqu9lfZ9aEg shows the same erroneous thoughts at 1.06 hr. They lack a basic understanding of Northern Mantis. Funny thing is that this form is the same pictured in the book authored by the late Wong Hon Fun,known as the Mantis King. I hope this is not more stealing?
A better viewpoint would be http://youtu.be/SNY8q18bqZk
I think Bawang got you pegged, martial art window shopper. get in get out at best, or just plain bluff & fluff. like HSK believes you to be.
Sorry i got off main thread. The subject is the five animal which contains no mantis!

Crushing Step

10-20-2012, 09:15 PM

I agree with you about most of this and understand completely.

So, your mantis style never uses fingers to poke or to shape the forearm for mantis elbows and techniques?

Using the hand to shape the form for elbows, yes. You can see this clearly in bung bo, the one "signature" form that exists in every family of northern mantis.

The finger used as a strike... I have seen it taught as a supposed pressure point strike, but it is still used in a claw-like fashion, flexing the hand closed one finger at a time starting with the pinky and ending with the index finger. This is the way we interpret the insect, the "claw" of the insect opens on "casting out", and closes as the forearm is recoiled in. So even if this hand position ever shows up in a form, it always will open and close upon contact with an imaginary opponent.

HSK you'll like this part. If someone were to learn a mantis form strictly from a book, you will never see the mantis hand "open". You would see the classic flexed forearm with the index finger protruding. If two or three of these were done in sequence (right hand, left hand, right hand again, etc) all you have is the "closed" mantis hand going back and forth. The actual play of the animal would be understood by anyone who practices mantis, such as if you switched from right to left, the hands would lash out like an open palm strike, and quickly recoil into the mantis hand. So seeing Sin The poke his hands back and forth like that looks exactly like you might expect from someone learning from a book.

tattooedmonk

10-20-2012, 09:22 PM

hskwarrior

10-20-2012, 10:15 PM

HSK you'll like this part. If someone were to learn a mantis form strictly from a book, you will never see the mantis hand "open". You would see the classic flexed forearm with the index finger protruding. If two or three of these were done in sequence (right hand, left hand, right hand again, etc) all you have is the "closed" mantis hand going back and forth. The actual play of the animal would be understood by anyone who practices mantis, such as if you switched from right to left, the hands would lash out like an open palm strike, and quickly recoil into the mantis hand. So seeing Sin The poke his hands back and forth like that looks exactly like you might expect from someone learning from a book.

oops! nice job!

hskwarrior

10-20-2012, 10:21 PM

I dont care what 5 or 6 low lifes, the keyboard martial artist of the internet think of me.

low lifes? really? you tampon stuffin sissy boy. most all of us very open bout our real identities. you hide behind yours and act like a big boy. but some of us have doubts.

taai gihk yahn

10-21-2012, 05:06 AM

I dont care what 5 or 6 low lifes, the keyboard martial artist of the internet think of me.:)
what exactly do you mean by "keyboard martial artist(s)"? the implication is that, outside of the forum those "5 or 6 low lifes" have no capacity as MAists; that all we know how to do is weigh invective online via keyboards; is that what you are suggesting?

as far as what we think of you, we actually don't think anything of "you" at all - we don't know who you are, u r just a nameless, faceless profile on a forum; unlike Frank, myself and many others on here who post without the luxury of anonymity (meaning that, unlike you, we basically have to be ready to stand behind what we post), there is no "you" to think anything of; so you can drop the persecution complex, since as an anonymous poster, by definition, you don't even rate being "thought of" in the first place; you deride others as keyboard warriors, but the fact of the matter is that you post from a "safer" place than those u accuse of cowardice; so u r essentially denigrating others for what you yourself are even more guilty of;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Beijing_bouddhist_monk_2009_IMG_1486.JPG/220px-Beijing_bouddhist_monk_2009_IMG_1486.JPG

tattooedmonk

10-21-2012, 07:25 AM

low lifes? really? you tampon stuffin sissy boy. most all of us very open bout our real identities. you hide behind yours and act like a big boy. but some of us have doubts.not hiding anywhere. You want to know who I am ask. I will be more than happy to provide you with what you need.

tattooedmonk

10-21-2012, 07:38 AM

what exactly do you mean by "keyboard martial artist(s)"? the implication is that, outside of the forum those "5 or 6 low lifes" have no capacity as MAists; that all we know how to do is weigh invective online via keyboards; is that what you are suggesting?

as far as what we think of you, we actually don't think anything of "you" at all - we don't know who you are, u r just a nameless, faceless profile on a forum; unlike Frank, myself and many others on here who post without the luxury of anonymity (meaning that, unlike you, we basically have to be ready to stand behind what we post), there is no "you" to think anything of; so you can drop the persecution complex, since as an anonymous poster, by definition, you don't even rate being "thought of" in the first place; you deride others as keyboard warriors, but the fact of the matter is that you post from a "safer" place than those u accuse of cowardice; so u r essentially denigrating others for what you yourself are even more guilty of;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Beijing_bouddhist_monk_2009_IMG_1486.JPG/220px-Beijing_bouddhist_monk_2009_IMG_1486.JPGwow , I think I am gonna cry, NoT! What a dumb@$$. you all think really high of yourselves, bullsh!t. Just sh!t talking @$$holes.

Crushing Step

10-21-2012, 07:56 AM

Do you guys even know what you're fighting about anymore?

taai gihk yahn

10-21-2012, 08:10 AM

wow , I think I am gonna cry, NoT!
no, please, don't cry, it's not...OH, I see what you did there - you had me thinking you were really going to cry, and then at the last moment, you cleverly flipped it around; wow...

What a dumb@$$. you all think really high of yourselves,
bullsh!t. Just sh!t talking @$$holes.
the eloquence with which you profess yourself is truly beyond measure; please, continue to regale us with more of your witty rejoinders!

Do you guys even know what you're fighting about anymore?
you assume that we knew in the first place? :p

taai gihk yahn

10-21-2012, 08:11 AM

not hiding anywhere. You want to know who I am ask. I will be more than happy to provide you with what you need.

ok, who are you?

brucereiter

10-21-2012, 08:33 AM

Nothing to do with the original post so sorry for the intrusion...
I really think if people posted on these martial arts forums with their real name and identity that the conversation would be more honest. Even "online" people should be accountable for their words. Although there are exceptions to that idea as shown by one on this and other recent threads.

The word of the day.
Ad hominium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Why do people feel the need to say such insulting things to other posters here. Can you not build a reasonable argument to support your opinions and thoughts on a subject with out the need to insult.

I really do wonder how tough some of ya'all would be standing face to face alone with some of the people you talk **** to here. If some of these things were said in person I am sure it could escalate to one person striking another.

One of you stated something to the affect that you could take any sd person but then back track and talk about weight class etc. not unlike many other martial arts traditional or not sd has some very strong, fit men who can and will fight.

I have plenty of issues with sin the / bill leonard but I would never say anything here hat I would not say to their face.

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 08:45 AM

my identity has always been known and who my teacher is.
i know i'm not afraid :D

taai gihk yahn

10-21-2012, 09:37 AM

Why do people feel the need to say such insulting things to other posters here. Can you not build a reasonable argument to support your opinions and thoughts on a subject with out the need to insult..

I agree; you will note, for example, that while I will readily say negative things about SD's lineage myth, as well as the content and people's performance of the forms, I don't actually insult people directly (unlike ur fellow/former SD'r TTM, who freely uses terms like "d1ck breath" and "aszhole"; indeed, for all of his posturing about cheap shots and baseless attacks, and whatnot, TTM freely dispenses these terms; not that any of us feel particularly pained by them, but it does speak to his level of discourse...also, while I don't advertise my location and name the way Frank does, I don't hide my identity - it would b pretty easy to find me; TTM, OTOH, seems to revel in his anonymous status and hurls the epithets without compunction because of that);

while I suppose I might tone it down a bit if face-to-face, I would have no issue giving my honest assessment to anyone from SD (again, perhaps a little more gently, if they were inclined to give what I say credence);

taai gihk yahn

10-21-2012, 09:39 AM

my identity has always been known and who my teacher is.
who are you, Frank; who are you REALLY?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg/200px-Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg

brucereiter

10-21-2012, 10:10 AM

my identity has always been known and who my teacher is.
i know i'm not afraid :D

Yes I understand ... That part is not addressed to you frank. I do however take issue with some of your methods of communication. You have in fact said things about people that simply are not true on this forum. This by my definition is lying.

I do not defend Shaolin do or sin the at all. I am very disappointed in sin the. Unfortunately sin the's lies, omissions and partial truths has created a very uncomfortable situation for many of his students.
I wish he would just tell the whole truth about the history of his martial arts.

Frank even though you are not afraid I think you would be a reasonable enough human in person to not say some of the things you have said on line to a persons face. Maybe I am wrong. I am asking people to make their points in a more constructive way.

It is obvious that you or I can have any opinion we chose. How we express those opinions is what I am addressing.

taai gihk yahn

10-21-2012, 10:29 AM

I do not defend Shaolin do or sin the at all. I am very disappointed in sin the. Unfortunately sin the's lies, omissions and partial truths has created a very uncomfortable situation for many of his students.
ok, fair enough; but OTOH, in this day and age (and I mean at east the last ten years), with the availability of resources on TCMA how could one possibly not see the fraud that is SD? I mean, the "origin" story is nuts and not verifiable independently; the content is hardly "shaolin" but rather an amalgam of disparate things cobbled together over the years, and is performed in a way that has minimal if any bearing on TCMA; the uniform and terms are Japanese; and for every inconsistency, SD has an elaborate justification; not to mention it is an quasi-cult-like environment (at the very least, a cult of personality) as evidenced by the fact that seemingly intelligent people like urself took / take so long to realize what's what, and then feel regret and disappointment in a manner similar to those who leave a religious group (I'm generalizing, of course)

I wish he would just tell the whole truth about the history of his martial arts.
I think the truth is very simple: he learned some stuff in Indonesia, probably a mix of some karate, some TCMA and who knows what else, and he worked out hard, obviously he is very fit; then he came over here at a time when the whole Asian mystique thing was still viable; he settled in a part of the country that had no TCMA around / no Chinatown, and where people didn't have any real access to sources that would contradict his story; taking advantage of this, he basically was able to pass off stuff that wasn't his as part of SD; again, back then, who was going to say otherwise? and in person he's probably a charismatic guy who probably has an m.o. where he seems like he is taking u into his confidence about the super-secret stuff he knows;
do u realy need him to fess up to see what's what?

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 10:30 AM

who are you, Frank; who are you REALLY?

who am i really? I really AM not the guy who will be laying on your couch so you can fondle my joy stick. :eek: MR Preverted Head Doctor. :eek:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg/200px-Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 10:50 AM

Yes I understand ... That part is not addressed to you frank. I do however take issue with some of your methods of communication. You have in fact said things about people that simply are not true on this forum. This by my definition is lying.

How i deal with what i view as a troll is either to ignore them or overfeed them so much they puke. the whole purpose of a troll is to stir up stuff.

to anyone i've offended by saying something that isn't true, then like a man i apologize.

but, the fact remains, shaolin do shouldn't go learning gung fu from books and video then turn around and teach it, repackage it, and give it a new history. THAT IS THE TRUTH. for people like this, i take the kid gloves off. since someone in shaolin do boosted our lineages form, change a move or add a move here and there, give it a new history and so on is far more dispicable than any treatment by me here on this forum.

the utter disgust i feel in listening to most of the Shaolin Do students here trying to twist and turn a lie into what they pray to be the truth. its like how can anyone be so dumb? some of them who admit they believe it was taken from DFW's book, i'll respect them. still, before judging me, step back and look at the whole picture.

Frank even though you are not afraid I think you would be a reasonable enough human in person to not say some of the things you have said on line to a persons face

if someone did something to me, i will say everything i said to someone's face. what can they do? beat me up? fuk, i fell 50 feet, became paralyzed from the waist down and still came back. why should i worry about what i say to those who don't listen or doesn't care about what i'm sayin? if what i've said to people turns into a fight in person, then its on. but know, i don't normally talk to people in person like this unless provoked. once you provoke me, push the button you wanted a reaction from, and didn't like how it tasted, then don't push that button.

I am asking people to make their points in a more constructive way.

for anything to be constructive there should be respect all the way around. its given when its given. ya feel me?

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 11:11 AM

the following is what i believe sums up the true TCMA perspective in regards to Shaolin Do. I feel they should all read this and understand why we feel the way we do.

the "origin" story is nuts and not verifiable independently; the content is hardly "shaolin" but rather an amalgam of disparate things cobbled together over the years, and is performed in a way that has minimal if any bearing on TCMA; the uniform and terms are Japanese; and for every inconsistency, SD has an elaborate justification; not to mention it is an quasi-cult-like environment (at the very least, a cult of personality) as evidenced by the fact that seemingly intelligent people like urself took / take so long to realize what's what, and then feel regret and disappointment in a manner similar to those who leave a religious group (I'm generalizing, of course)

BRUCE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVXxBU2Lx1Y&feature=plcp) This is you right? now, see, this right there is more believable than anything i've seen in Shaolin Do from top to bottom. your movement is much better as well. now your knife/fan video....:D teasin. you said yourself you know you made mistakes. do you work with live blades as well? i prefer live blades.

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 11:49 AM

I wish he would just tell the whole truth about the history of his martial arts.

Mr Reiter, all games aside. the above statement is one of the most heartfelt ones i've read on this whole topic. and i feel for you as one of its descendants. and i agree, things would be so much better if SIN THE just issued a statement with an apology along with the truth i'm sure the rest of the TCMA world would eventually forgive and forget. you can't go wrong with the truth.

i hope you can see my position as well. My lineage knows that the 5 animal form as seen by jake's video is our form. we know there aren't any other schools that teach this specific form. sure, many schools have 5 animal forms. but no one looks the same. still, the rest of the martial arts community knows this form is from our lineage. no one has ever seen anything close to it and its framework.

There isn't a need for Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut to fight over a form we know to be ours. beyond the shadow of a doubt. but since your lineage has absorbed it via the book by DFW, all i want is its proper recognition. your lineage already practices it and is probably being spread today.

as long as YOU and YOUR students know the authentic source for this form isn't SHAOLIN DO all i can do is ask YOU to do is do whats right. honor the form and its true source. give my lineage its proper respect as its source. and i promise you you would make a good friends. just try to see things from my position just for a moment.

pls know this tho, if you want to act like the others here and keep trying to twist the truth to be in favor of Shaolin Do, then i'm not sure we can be cool. pls understand my position.

and, my offer extends to you as well, if you know the form and want the proper way of doing it, im sure my sifu will work out something.

Frank. (notice the HSK is missing).

Jimbo

10-21-2012, 12:28 PM

That offer seems very reasonable for anyone out there who has any questions on the HS 5-animal form.

My Sifu used to teach it; it was one of the sets he had learned directly from DFW, maybe way back in the '70s(?). Some of my sihings learned and practiced it, but my Sifu hadn't taught it for some time. I suppose when he certified me as a sifu, I could have asked to learn it, but I remember my friend/sihing showed me the set a long time ago, and that the one-legged squat at the beginning, on the right leg with left leg extended, kind of put me off. Because back then I could do that easily, but only bending the left leg with right leg extended (opposite). Otherwise, I always thought it's an excellent set.

We have another 5-animal set from another lineage, which I did learn, but for reasons of my own I stopped practicing it.

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 12:37 PM

My sifu used to teach it; it was one of the sets he had learned directly from DFW, maybe way back in the '70s(?). He used to teach it, and some of my sihings practiced it, but he hadn't taught it for some time. I suppose when he certified me as sifu level, I could have asked to learn it, but I remember my friend/sihing showed me the set a long time ago, and that the one-legged squat at the beginning, on the right leg with left leg extended, kind of put me off. Because back then I could do that easily, but only bending the left leg with right leg extended (opposite). Otherwise, I always thought it's a cool set.

that whole opening section is rough. since i had my accident that whole section has been rough. everything after it i got down nicely. but the thing that jake is missing and i'm sure the others is the flow and essence of the form.

Jimbo

10-21-2012, 12:42 PM

that whole opening section is rough. since i had my accident that whole section has been rough. everything after it i got down nicely. but the thing that jake is missing and i'm sure the others is the flow and essence of the form.

True.
Without proper instruction, and a proper base in an art, one can only acquire an empty shell of a form at best.

Crushing Step

10-21-2012, 01:26 PM

For the non-CLF players like me, is there any way to see this five animal form on youtube?

Crushing Step

10-21-2012, 01:33 PM

Is this it?

http://youtu.be/V5c5-n9n4T0

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 01:39 PM

thats choy lee fut 5 animals.

Crushing Step

10-21-2012, 01:46 PM

thats choy lee fut 5 animals.

From the first post in this thread:

This is a reply that is constructive and slightly long-winded and not succinct.
I am sure that some students traded or exchanged and perhaps even sold the five animal set. In this particular case I rather believe that the five animal was taken from my younger uncle’s book. One must understand that the book was not instructional but only informational. The book is full of photographic errors giving readers a slightly skewed view of the set unintentionally. Photographs by their nature are limited and can only show final positions and very little transitional movement. This is a key to understand and master this particular set.
In this day and age many people think that knowledge is available for free. Well go ahead and you will find that your journey will be void of true martial art skill. I must admit that if you practice the five animal set from any source you will feel great because even practicing the shell of the form has its benefits but understand clearly you will never reap the proper benefits of this form without true instruction.
I learned under Jew Sifu and have trained the five animal internal form for many years and can say it is truly a wonder I consider U-Ming to be one of the jewels of the CLF, HUNG SING style originating from Professor Lau Bun.

So U-Ming =/= Five Animal? Just looking for a point of reference.

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 01:52 PM

So U-Ming =/= Five Animal? Just looking for a point of reference.

Um/Ng (5) Ying (shapes)

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 02:14 PM

Ok, after some thinking about it, i'm going to post the section for section video for everyone to see. the authentic version is the old one in black and white. compare it to jakes video you will see the modifications they did. but jake clearly has no idea of what he is actually doing in his SHOTTY version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x2CeCv6XOs

Judge Pen

10-21-2012, 02:48 PM

um, actually it is; Chow Ga is a distinct line, different from some lineages (e.g. - Jook Lum), but still clearly w/in the realm of Nam Tong Long

My bad, I thought he was referring to what Sin The was performing which was not Southern Mantis.

Judge Pen

10-21-2012, 02:49 PM

[QUOTE=Judge Pen;1193118][QUOTE=Crushing Step;1193103]That's "southern" mantis, which evolved completely separate from "northern" mantis, no relation at all, and I cannot really comment if it was good for southern mantis. Their interprettion of the mantis, I believe, is to use the hands in a whipping motion, possibly similar to the chun. I would ask a southern mantis practicioner for a better answer.

You do realize that I was commenting on this one right?

http://youtu.be/Rum8HfHYLRI

The one labelled "Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu (Chow Gar): Um Gen Sau Form"?

If that's not southern mantis I stand corrected.

No that was my bad. I thought you were saying SD did Southen mantis. Sorry.

Judge Pen

10-21-2012, 02:56 PM

the following is what i believe sums up the true TCMA perspective in regards to Shaolin Do. I feel they should all read this and understand why we feel the way we do.

BRUCE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVXxBU2Lx1Y&feature=plcp) This is you right? now, see, this right there is more believable than anything i've seen in Shaolin Do from top to bottom. your movement is much better as well.

But see, that was SD. That was Bruce with Master Reid. Bruce has worked really hard in his training and its application, but not all that is taught in SD isn't bad. This is the point. You can find a lot of bad in it, but the people that defend it are usually either delusional or the ones that had good teachers, that worked hard and made it work for them, and the ones that don't let the lies and the phoney history spoin what they learned. And many of the good ones either ignore the lies or move on when they can't take it anymore.

Judge Pen

10-21-2012, 03:02 PM

Mr Reiter, all games aside. the above statement is one of the most heartfelt ones i've read on this whole topic. and i feel for you as one of its descendants. and i agree, things would be so much better if SIN THE just issued a statement with an apology along with the truth i'm sure the rest of the TCMA world would eventually forgive and forget. you can't go wrong with the truth.

i hope you can see my position as well. My lineage knows that the 5 animal form as seen by jake's video is our form. we know there aren't any other schools that teach this specific form. sure, many schools have 5 animal forms. but no one looks the same. still, the rest of the martial arts community knows this form is from our lineage. no one has ever seen anything close to it and its framework.

There isn't a need for Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut to fight over a form we know to be ours. beyond the shadow of a doubt. but since your lineage has absorbed it via the book by DFW, all i want is its proper recognition. your lineage already practices it and is probably being spread today.

as long as YOU and YOUR students know the authentic source for this form isn't SHAOLIN DO all i can do is ask YOU to do is do whats right. honor the form and its true source. give my lineage its proper respect as its source. and i promise you you would make a good friends. just try to see things from my position just for a moment.

pls know this tho, if you want to act like the others here and keep trying to twist the truth to be in favor of Shaolin Do, then i'm not sure we can be cool. pls understand my position.

and, my offer extends to you as well, if you know the form and want the proper way of doing it, im sure my sifu will work out something.

Frank. (notice the HSK is missing).

Frank, thank you for those sentiments. That's all I can ask of anyone that learns that the bulk of my training was SD. I can defend my training, the applications and skill set that I learned and the character/ethics of most of my teachers. I cannot defend the lies that have been told. I tell people what I think the origins of what I learned truly are (even if it differs from the story that is being told by others) and if they are not cool with that, it's there problem. Your a passionate guy and I can tell you get hot and bothered about all the BS that gets thrown around here, but if the above quote is your honest assesment, then you and I have no problems.

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 03:08 PM

But see, that was SD. That was Bruce with Master Reid. Bruce has worked really hard in his training and its application, but not all that is taught in SD isn't bad. This is the point. You can find a lot of bad in it, but the people that defend it are usually either delusional or the ones that had good teachers, that worked hard and made it work for them, and the ones that don't let the lies and the phoney history spoin what they learned. And many of the good ones either ignore the lies or move on when they can't take it anymore.

all i really care about is justice for my lineage in regards to our 5 animal form. i don't really care about other styles or what they teach. if shaolin do wants to claim shaolin that's their choice. but when you step on our toes and rip us off like that you're messing with the wrong people. you cannot have our form just because SIN THE bought the book. personally, i feel doc fai wong should NEVER have printed that form in a book. now look at what happened.

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 03:24 PM

Frank, thank you for those sentiments. That's all I can ask of anyone that learns that the bulk of my training was SD. I can defend my training, the applications and skill set that I learned and the character/ethics of most of my teachers. I cannot defend the lies that have been told. I tell people what I think the origins of what I learned truly are (even if it differs from the story that is being told by others) and if they are not cool with that, it's there problem. Your a passionate guy and I can tell you get hot and bothered about all the BS that gets thrown around here, but if the above quote is your honest assesment, then you and I have no problems.

i am being my real self here. yeah im mad as hell another school had the nerve to take our form and not give us credit. but in the end, its not my name or my schools reputation that has to suffer for it.

all i am asking for is straight up honesty from here on out. for shaolin do leaders to send out an email about this form and instruct their instructors to tell the true history regardless of what others might think. Like the ones who came before you DON'T continue the lies. Tell people that Shaolin Do was most likely created by Sin The. Be honorable. be honest. IMPROVE YOUR SKILLS. be HONEST .....did i say BE HONEST? :D

brucereiter

10-21-2012, 03:50 PM

the following is what i believe sums up the true TCMA perspective in regards to Shaolin Do. I feel they should all read this and understand why we feel the way we do.

BRUCE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVXxBU2Lx1Y&feature=plcp) This is you right? now, see, this right there is more believable than anything i've seen in Shaolin Do from top to bottom. your movement is much better as well. now your knife/fan video....:D teasin. you said yourself you know you made mistakes. do you work with live blades as well? i prefer live blades.

the fan is one of the forms sin the claims is a chen form passed shaolin ... i learned it and got a few good things from it but have left that one behind. i have since done some knife training with some "qualified" teachers. man i would hate to be attacked with a knife. scary.

yes that is me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMrLT_uGR4Q&list=UU_bOaCAreE6ZH-Kl1AF49vw&index=3&feature=plcp

brucereiter

10-21-2012, 03:52 PM

all i am asking for is straight up honesty from here on out. for shaolin do leaders to send out an email about this form and instruct their instructors to tell the true history regardless of what others might think. Like the ones who came before you DON'T continue the lies. Tell people that Shaolin Do was most likely created by Sin The. Be honorable. be honest. IMPROVE YOUR SKILLS. be HONEST .....did i say BE HONEST? :D

agreed. but i would add honesty about all off it.

One student

10-21-2012, 04:06 PM

and for once, the old SD saw of "well, those people demoing weren't representative of SD" doesn't hold water, bec those were demos Sin The participated in; meaning that the people he had demo were who he thought best represented the system; and they suked; and they look like pretty much the way all other SD forms on YT look as well...

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For those regional seminars, GMS does not pick the demo'ers, they are picked locally and generally volunteer. It is as much a social activity as anything else. Not to justify quality of the performer, just not the process you think it is.

hskwarrior

10-21-2012, 04:09 PM

the fan is one of the forms sin the claims is a chen form passed shaolin ... i learned it and got a few good things from it but have left that one behind. i have since done some knife training with some "qualified" teachers. man i would hate to be attacked with a knife. scary.

i feel you on that. my older brother was stabbed in the chest and it ripped across and into his bicep.

One of my former students while training under me got surrounded and stabbed by 6-7 guys. he was stabbed that many times as well. my student attributed the lack of serious depth of the stabs to his natural reflexes developed from always flinching and avoiding my chop choys. he was more afraid of those than knives LOL. but he handled them and is luckily alive.

because of my escrima experience we practice with live blades. love that feeling of fear of being cut for real while training.

Crushing Step

10-21-2012, 07:34 PM

Speaking of demo's, can someone in the SD camp comment on this one?

http://youtu.be/foDXjaSyQMk

My apologies if this video has already been posted, I pop in and out of this thread and have not read the entire thing.

Sin The is first, doing some strange thing with two canes. He appears at times to forget his next move or even to be making stuff up. I was actually looking forward to being amazed by The, because everyone talks about his physical conditioning.

The second form seemed like legitimate enough Chinese broadsword techniques, but I was a bit uninspired again by the performance level.

The third form is just amazing and out of this world. In fact the what-the-f@ckery that happens between 3:20 and 3:45 was so bad, I had to stop watching, with over 15 minutes of demonstration left. Maybe something awesome happened in that time...

goju

10-21-2012, 09:31 PM

LKFMDC is gone; HW108 hasn't been around for ages either; Jamieson restricts his moding to the MFP; KC was all happy to be back again; Rudy Abel,Goju , Knife Fighter and the rest of the chronic whiners haven't been heard from for years;

can't believe this...:mad::mad::mad:

;)

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3n0JOWRaky62HKfo4XeozTDa1cVNpa LgpwkOhYwFj2dRub_DLqg

Syn7

10-21-2012, 09:39 PM

the third one was pretty weird. I get what they were attempting. But nah.

Sin The sucks. I train with preteens who have better form than he does. Str8 up. He looks like he can't even remember what comes next. Rush, stall, rush, stall :rolleyes: wow. And that is the top guy, best example in the whole system. Lineage holder. Keeper of the flame. Brutal!

Those BB's are so rough. Pretty low standards in level assessment.

brucereiter

10-21-2012, 10:03 PM

Mr Reiter, all games aside. the above statement is one of the most heartfelt ones i've read on this whole topic. and i feel for you as one of its descendants. and i agree, things would be so much better if SIN THE just issued a statement with an apology along with the truth i'm sure the rest of the TCMA world would eventually forgive and forget. you can't go wrong with the truth.

i hope you can see my position as well. My lineage knows that the 5 animal form as seen by jake's video is our form. we know there aren't any other schools that teach this specific form. sure, many schools have 5 animal forms. but no one looks the same. still, the rest of the martial arts community knows this form is from our lineage. no one has ever seen anything close to it and its framework.

There isn't a need for Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut to fight over a form we know to be ours. beyond the shadow of a doubt. but since your lineage has absorbed it via the book by DFW, all i want is its proper recognition. your lineage already practices it and is probably being spread today.

as long as YOU and YOUR students know the authentic source for this form isn't SHAOLIN DO all i can do is ask YOU to do is do whats right. honor the form and its true source. give my lineage its proper respect as its source. and i promise you you would make a good friends. just try to see things from my position just for a moment.

pls know this tho, if you want to act like the others here and keep trying to twist the truth to be in favor of Shaolin Do, then i'm not sure we can be cool. pls understand my position.

and, my offer extends to you as well, if you know the form and want the proper way of doing it, im sure my sifu will work out something.

Frank. (notice the HSK is missing).

i did not learn any of the external stuff. i do not know your form. i am sure my sd teacher would not say you were wrong about origin of your form.

Syn7

10-21-2012, 10:48 PM

Do you consider this a better expression/understanding of mantis?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rum8HfHYLRI

SPM is something else. You guys should know these differences.

Syn7

10-21-2012, 11:31 PM

http://youtu.be/Fqu9lfZ9aEg shows the same erroneous thoughts at 1.06 hr.

The two man at 106 is rough. So those guys are BB's? Wow, SD has really high standards. These guys are masters?

I love how the guy will throw a right, wait till the other guy goes thru his motions, then what seems like 25 minutes later he'll throw out the left. Try those in a real fight with that speed. You will get hit over and over and over...........

I watch these vids, watch in disbelief at these guys wearing high rankings but pretty much show what I would consider to be intermediate skill, at best. Then I don't watch SD vids for a few weeks and start thinking "maybe I'm being too rough on these guys" but then I go watch another vid and start seeing that I am not rough enough. That sh1t is soft, weak, barely coordinated. I honestly feel sorry for the real lineages that created some of these forms and having to watch SD make a train wreck out of them. It's like recording a great song, then some d1ck comes along and does a cover that makes you feel shame just for hearing it.

Sin The thinks they are finger jabs because he only learned the forms from books and made up all the info to fill the gaps of knowledge not given in the books. He sees a guy with 3 curled fingers and the index more straight and assumes it's a poke.

I would love to see Sin The fight a real fighter. I imagine it would be something like when the no touch guy fought that barely amateur MMA kid and pretty much quit after getting punched once or twice. He didn't fall, he gave in cause his face hurt. Real fighters don't stop when they get clocked but are still conscious.

If what KC says is true about his skill level and experience then he should be able to tear Sin The in half in under 10 seconds. I'm talking on some one punch type sh1t.

This is what a real master looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOvO5L6VjSc&feature=related

kwaichang

10-23-2012, 10:33 AM

I have seen GMThe do forms well and not as well, there are physical limitations in all forms , there are forms that all cant do correctly or "right". No one is perfect or flawless in forms. If they were there would be more posts of individuals doing their forms instead of cutting down others who perform their forms. I have heard never judge a book by its cover. There are many I have seen in SD that are awesome in any sense of the word. Those are the ones you need to see. Lets see howmany can kick well or move with a RC tear or meniscus tear or what ever and still do well. I defend no one but much like Obama and no one like him for what he hasnt done all because the 2 party system sux. KC:)

bawang

10-23-2012, 12:04 PM

there is only one thing that can redeem sing the

does he bang the white wimmins?

kwaichang

10-23-2012, 12:14 PM

Taai , I agree your form is good but sorry I have seen better, and BTW by GMThe. I hope that didnt hurt too much. The Obama thing was a Joke. I will find the form I am looking for I believe it was the Ground Dragon from Lex Ky. Good form. KC

kwaichang

10-23-2012, 12:27 PM

OKinawa Te, a much simpler dynamic form no comparison to Chinese Forms, even SD, I will search one of the ones i have on dvd at home and see what I can find. KC:)

kwaichang

10-23-2012, 12:30 PM

Tear this one up. Then do it for us as well. http://youtu.be/wJ014DD7X0w
Ground Dragon I trained with this Guy and he is Good. Oh and SD Tee Hee KC:)

taai gihk yahn

10-23-2012, 01:02 PM

http://youtu.be/1M7M7rLxcYg
The video http://youtu.be/Fqu9lfZ9aEg shows the same erroneous thoughts at 1.06 hr. They lack a basic understanding of Northern Mantis.
wow...just wow...

how mentally imbalanced do you have to be to go to China, see the real stuff and then have the ballz to get up there and do that SD crap and not realize how miserable you look in comparison?

wow...

bawang

10-23-2012, 01:27 PM

wow...just wow...

how mentally imbalanced do you have to be to go to China, see the real stuff and then have the ballz to get up there and do that SD crap and not realize how miserable you look in comparison?

wow...

you can tell the announcers and other performers feel disgusted and confused, but keep poker faces.

Snipsky

10-23-2012, 02:01 PM

OK here you go
Tear this one up. Then do it for us as well. http://youtu.be/wJ014DD7X0w
Ground Dragon I trained with this Guy and he is Good. Oh and SD Tee Hee KC

i say stop being girly man and show a video of yourself doing form. you no good? that why? chicken cluck cluck chicken chicken cluck cluck.

shaolin do is karate i think. the way the move reminded me of karate. very stiff. no kung fu. no fluidity.

Judge Pen

10-23-2012, 02:16 PM

There was some bad stuff there, no doubt. I confess I didn't watch the entire video, but I did see a modified version of our 9 section chain whip that was deacent and the Hua 2 man set was ok. Not great, but not terrible. I can certainly link to some Hua videos of, shall we say, more legitimate lineages that are worse than that. But the unavoidable point is that none of the performances were outstanding, and you would have expected better on that stage certainly.

Judge Pen

10-23-2012, 02:26 PM

Judge Pen

10-23-2012, 02:48 PM

I can't find an example of Sin The doing a good form. I never thought his form, from what I've seen, was all that good.

The ground dragon form was really good. Your point about it being comparable to open style karate players or wushu is well taken. But it is an SD guy doing an SD form well (which seems to be like a unicorn sighting anymore).

I'd be curious to get thoughts on some of the performances in this demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC68d1xQEdQ&feature=relmfu

Start at 3:50. This is Garry Mullins doing an SD internal form called Buddha fist.

About 6:40 he does the same ground dragon form.

Crushing Step

10-23-2012, 03:50 PM

I can't find an example of Sin The doing a good form. I never thought his form, from what I've seen, was all that good.

I might be wrong, as I visit the KFM forums very sporadically over the years, but I thought you were not only a SD guy but one of it's defenders? I read earlier on that you're not in SD anymore, but I do have one question. If The never looked good doing a form, what was it that kept you in SD?

Judge Pen

10-23-2012, 05:09 PM

I might be wrong, as I visit the KFM forums very sporadically over the years, but I thought you were not only a SD guy but one of it's defenders? I read earlier on that you're not in SD anymore, but I do have one question. If The never looked good doing a form, what was it that kept you in SD?

Yes I was an SD guy for over 20 years and I defended it as much as anyone can. I still defend many aspects of it. It is a solid martial art in terms of teaching fundamental concepts and applicaple fighting aspects. I kept training in Sd because my teachers were good people that taught well and it was better than any alternatives that I had available to me. I don't train in SD anymore because of orthopedic reasons. If my hip were 100% than I would still be working out with many of my SD brothers. I would probably be training in other things, but there's material in SD that I will always keep and train in. I will teach my children things I learned from SD.

As far as forms work, it was always my weakest element in the martial arts. I would oftne wipe the floor sparring the best "forms" people that I knew. I can appreciate that someone can be a good martial artist and not be the best forms person. Because my teachers respected Sin The (mainly for his fighting ability that I heard of anecdotally) then I respected him. But frankly the lies and bogus history overwhelmed even my strong sense of loyalty.

Snipsky

10-23-2012, 05:15 PM

I'd be curious to get thoughts on some of the performances in this demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC68d...feature=relmfu

Start at 3:50. This is Garry Mullins doing an SD internal form called Buddha fist.

his movement is nicer than that guy jake. but the guy has karate feel about his movement. smooth, but karate-sh. i think its also a make up form. jake makes it sound like shaolin do has fut gar inside it. i would pray they don't claim this too.

Judge Pen

10-23-2012, 05:18 PM

his movement is nicer than that guy jake. but the guy has karate feel about his movement. smooth, but karate-sh. i think its also a make up form. jake makes it sound like shaolin do has fut gar inside it. i would pray they don't claim this too.

I believe that the Buddha Fist form is Kung Tao in origin. That may mean CMA and JMA influence. I don't necessarily think this is shaolin, but I don't think it is "made up" either.

Empty_Cup

10-23-2012, 05:31 PM

...

I'd be curious to get thoughts on some of the performances in this demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC68d1xQEdQ&feature=relmfu

Start at 3:50. This is Garry Mullins doing an SD internal form called Buddha fist.

About 6:40 he does the same ground dragon form.

I only watched the Buddha Fist portion. Interesting expression of this form. There are a number of moves that look a lot different from how I practice it.

Being taiji, it's hard to say how he would have looked demonstrating that form at a more normal (slower) pace. To Snipsky's point it looks a little rigid in the transitions but I think when trying to speed up taiji it tends to look that way.

Empty_Cup

10-23-2012, 06:05 PM

I believe that the Buddha Fist form is Kung Tao in origin. That may mean CMA and JMA influence. I don't necessarily think this is shaolin, but I don't think it is "made up" either.

Just for reference we had been discussing it here:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64351&page=4

As OTD mentioned it was taught in 1974 and then demonstrated by the White Lotus society in Bandung during the 1992 visit.

I haven't seen Jake's video but don't really feel like opening up a can of worms by including him in this discussion. He's obviously decided to go his own way.

shen ku

10-23-2012, 08:25 PM

JP thanks for pointing out the video, i was at that one in 93. I had a lot of fun and got my butt handed to me..... oh the fun

Syn7

10-23-2012, 11:01 PM

It is understandable to see students of all levels and it is ignorant to make fun of people who do their best but just haven't put in enough time to be very good yet.

That being said, a lot of these guys were wearing BB's and sucked donkey c0ck.

Can somebody pull out an SD vid as a fine example of what one could expect to look like after acquiring a high rank?

I can show you vids of kids at my school that suck, no doubt. I can also show vids of our lineage that is something to be proud of.

Just search CLC Bak Mei on you tube and if you can't find a great example it's coz your bias is keeping you from digging properly. If you want to find horrible examples of CLC Bak Mei, you will find those too. But my point is that there are a sh1tt ton of great examples. I have yet to see even ONE SD vid that didn't make me cringe.

That's not directed at you JP, not specifically anyways. I respect your honesty and appreciate your candid responses. Regardless of what I think of SD and it's quality, you seem like a good guy.

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 12:28 AM

I'm not claiming it is part of fut gar; I've never been told that and it doesn't look like the fut gar that I've seen demonstrated in the past. I think "Buddha Family Fist" is a generic term and does not mean "SD also claims to teach Fut Gar". I think Empty Cup nailed it when he said leave Jake out of the discussion because he has gone his own way and who knows what he is claiming; He's making it up as he goes. All I know about "Buddha fist" (as it's always ben called by my teachers) is that according to OTD (who has been around for years) he was first taught this form in 1974 and it was practiced, independantly in Indonesia (meaning from the same school as Sin The but not under Sin The's direction). The fairy tale about the hairy monk aside (as that's obvioulsy made up) Sin The learned from Ie Chang Ming and other "collegues" in Indonesia. As I understand it, each brought their own specialty to the table. No wonder SD is a mish-mash of forms. This may be made up, I don't know of anyone outside of SD or Indonesia that practice this form, but it was not made up by Sin The.

Garry Mullins, the performer in the video, was one of my main teachers. He did not learn the form in 1974. He went to Indonesia in 1992 and saw others performing this form and then asked Sin The if he could learn it after seeing it demoed by the students in Indonesia. I've seen other good Sd people, but I think Garry Mullins as one of the best.

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 12:30 AM

fut ga is a distinctive southern mid to short-hand system that is supposedly a relatively recent hybridized system based largely on choi and hung family fist; regardless, what I have seen of it over the years looks nothing like anything SD does, including that form;

I don't think this form is fut ga. SD isn't claiming the form is Fut Ga. "Buddha family" or "Buddha fist" are very generic terms and can be associated with any number of forms from any number of systems that are not Fut Ga.

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 12:38 AM

Can somebody pull out an SD vid as a fine example of what one could expect to look like after acquiring a high rank?

I did above. The performer is Garry Mullins who is one of my main teachers and does SD as well as anyone. I have lots of videos of him doing good stuff, but I only posted to that one because I don't have his permission to put him doing SD on the internet and that video was already on youtube. The video was in 1993. He is in his 50s now and still as good as he was (maybe better) in that video. KC put up another example of a Texas BB doing the ground dragon form on the SD thread. He is a little more athletic and shown than Mullins but he's not as good overall.

We can pick apart the flavor of Mullins' technique (karateish etc.) but that's what SD is.

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 12:57 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foDXjaSyQMk&feature=relmfu

At 4:10 you will see Garry Mullins and his two sons doing some forms. The first form is Golden Tiger. The performer is Mike Mullins (who was my teacher from 2002 through 2009).

The second form/performer is Kevin Mullins. I'm not sure of the form he was doing. It was probably a white crane form (maybe 15th Crane as I never learned that one). Objectively he was sloppy and trying to emphasize the big movements. He was also fairly young there (19 or 20) I've seen him do much better and think he has improved. Finally we have Garry Mullins doing the ground dragon again.

Right after that you have Mike Reid from Atlanta doing a drunken spear form. When watching that video keep in mind this is a former linebacker for the Atlanta Falcons who is 6'3 and at least 250lbs so while I've seen some people move better, they are usually under 6 foot and 200 lbs.

In each of these two videos he doesn't do the complete form and he skips around for the demo, but it gives you an idea of what is high level SD from my opinion.

taai gihk yahn

10-24-2012, 12:59 AM

that's what SD is.

and "what SD is", in my estimation, is a combination of 3 things: stuff Sin The actually learned back in Indonesia (which was probably a mix of stuff from China, Japan and Indonesia); stuff he took from books / tapes and co-opted wholesale; stuff he "made up" based on what he thought people wanted and their ignorance of what TCMA really is;

all of which is fine, as long as one is honest about it (for example, the sword form I linked to, I made it up); the problem is when u fabricate a lineage / origin story (and it's a brilliant one - the more implausible something seems, the more peope are willing to buy it - PT Barnum would have been proud!) and ascribe content dishonestly to a given source; that just means you are a cynical jerk, preying on people's credulous simplicities (I can't help but picture Sin The chuckling to himself about how his students will believe just any old thing he says / does; altho, at this point, he may actually believe his own schtick - in the words of the great George Costanza, "it's not a lie if you believe it's the truth";

one way (of many) to tell is the names of the forms: they sound "kung fu-ish", but are actually names you never find elsewhere in legitimate TCMA - for example, "ground dragon" is ridiculous - there is no such thing as a ground dragon in Chinese mythos - dragons fly or swim, they are celestial creatures - they don't walk / crawl on the floor - that's what snakes do (also, there is nothing in that form that characterizes dragon, but that's neither here nor there);

as for the Buddha fist set being "internal" - it's all wrong - there's nothing in that form that relates to classical 'internal' practice at all - just doing moves slowly and sticking your leg out at odd angles and holding it there and them coming into some crossed leg stances doesn't make it internal; internal practice has very specific aspects, and that form doesn't fulfill a single one;

it's fraud guys, pure and simple;

Syn7

10-24-2012, 01:00 AM

I'd be curious to get thoughts on some of the performances in this demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC68d1xQEdQ&feature=relmfu

Start at 3:50. This is Garry Mullins doing an SD internal form called Buddha fist.

About 6:40 he does a ground dragon form.

No doubt he has put in some time. In the first form he seemed "shakey" on the slower high kicks and a few of the other higher flexibility/strength movements. Regardless of how well or how poorly the forms are performed, I wouldn't use them in combat. The Dragon form was more wushu than actual combat effectiveness. Clearly meant to impress the type of person who equates acrobatic ability and flexibility with actual combat effectiveness. I have the same criticism with B-Boys. Crowds love the g@y sh1t that isn't really even dancing and get bored when they see real footwork. While the educated drool over a nice set, average folks just wanna see dudes spin on their head and do handsprings. C'est la vie :rolleyes:
Many, if not all, arts have this problem.

The beginning of his dragon form reminded me of how B-Boys look when they are learning. They are getting it but just aren't there yet. Like at a low intermediate level looking to move into the higher intermediate ranks. The truly fresh B-Boys look smooth all the time. They are so good that even when they fukc up they make it look dope like it was their plan all along. Recovery is one of the most important aspects. To stand there and try to remember what comes next is considered rookie sh1t and I have seen Sin The do that.

But this guy is a black belt and was the sponsor of the tourney. Probably runs a school, right? I just expect more from somebody who calls themselves an expert or master. Cleaner transitions, solid flowing movements etc. You can find children doing better acrobatic "shaolin" forms on youtube.

I wish my Sifu was the type of guy who lets others film him. Alas, he is beyond humble and only really gets loose behind closed doors. Once accepted as a student, it's just a matter of time before he does something to make you do the open mouthed double take. On the street you would think he's a harmless little man with a confident friendly disposition. He doesn't make bullsh1t claims because he doesn't make any claims at all. There are no d1ck enlarging stories of greatness. No insecure lies in an attempt for legitimacy and consumer appeal. Take it or leave it. He runs the school at a loss cause he loves Kung Fu and wants to help anyone he can. He is not unique, by any means. There are tons of Teachers like him. Just depends on the research.

Leto

10-24-2012, 05:03 AM

kwaichang

10-24-2012, 05:27 AM

Just for the fun of it , The legend of Mok Gar is it was developed by a Midget Monk named Mok Da Si, at the Southern Shaolin Temple which wasnt supposed to have existed. So if there was a Midget Monk there perhaps there was a Hairy one too? KC :)

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 05:39 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZhtKOYkyjQ

Thank-you! That's the first time I've seen this form outside of SD. Is this from the Indonesia trip?

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 05:45 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCcMYhcUpKk&feature=relmfu

This is our beginner level Dao form. I'm assuming that these videos are from the 1992 Indonesia trip where SD people trained and demonstrated with the students from the school that remained in Bangdung. Regardless, I learved this form before this video was taken and it has been a staple in SD curriculim for several years.

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 05:47 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MpzYEdfVho&feature=relmfu

Don't know this form, but the circular blocks and footwork are familiar to other SD forms that I do know. But check out what the guy is wearing: Barefoot. Karate Belt. Sam top. Talk about mish-mash.

Looks like kung tao to me.

shen ku

10-24-2012, 06:17 AM

I love these vids, yes theseare of the style that SD does

kwaichang

10-24-2012, 06:37 AM

Can you guys down load them a different way ? My computer wont allow it to be seen ? Thanks KC

RJ797

10-24-2012, 06:56 AM

i know the fut gar characters. however, what he is doing isn't what i know to be fut gar. this form must be something he made up and put the fut gar name on it.

so lets entertain this. now SD ALSO TEACHES FUT GAR KUEN? YOU KNOW ITS SO HARD TO SWALLOW KNOWING YOU GUYS PRACTICE FORMS FROM OTHER SYSTEMS BUT YOU HAVE NO DIRECT CONNECTION TO ANY OF THEM. NO LINEAGE. SO HOW DOES YOUR SCHOOL GET A HOLD OF THESE FORMS?

It seems every-time someone sees a from that was assimilated by SD in some way they claim it was made up. This particular form was discussed on rumsoakedfist a couple of years back. Check out what Sal Canzonieri said about it. http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3519&start=30&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hili

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 07:08 AM

It seems every-time someone sees a from that was assimilated by SD in some way they claim it was made up. This particular form was discussed on rumsoakedfist a couple of years back. Check out what Sal Canzonieri said about it. http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3519&start=30&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hili

"Not that I want to ever defend Sin The's stuff, but I have seen this exact some form being done by another Chinese lineage not related to Sin The whatsoever. They most have this confused.

It's is a southern Chinese style set, it happens to be called "Taji Quan" it is not related to what we know as Taiji Quan from the Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao, etc., styles.

It is karate like in that southern style as well. The name of the style was Southern Shaolin LONG Fist, the other sets were karate like, as many Five Ancestor's southern styles as well, that were the ancestors to Okinanwan Karate."

Well it is obviously practiced in Indonesia by Sin The's old school. and taught in America by The as early as 1974.

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 07:16 AM

and "what SD is", in my estimation, is a combination of 3 things: stuff Sin The actually learned back in Indonesia (which was probably a mix of stuff from China, Japan and Indonesia); stuff he took from books / tapes and co-opted wholesale; stuff he "made up" based on what he thought people wanted and their ignorance of what TCMA really is;

all of which is fine, as long as one is honest about it (for example, the sword form I linked to, I made it up); the problem is when u fabricate a lineage / origin story (and it's a brilliant one - the more implausible something seems, the more peope are willing to buy it - PT Barnum would have been proud!) and ascribe content dishonestly to a given source; that just means you are a cynical jerk, preying on people's credulous simplicities (I can't help but picture Sin The chuckling to himself about how his students will believe just any old thing he says / does; altho, at this point, he may actually believe his own schtick - in the words of the great George Costanza, "it's not a lie if you believe it's the truth";

one way (of many) to tell is the names of the forms: they sound "kung fu-ish", but are actually names you never find elsewhere in legitimate TCMA - for example, "ground dragon" is ridiculous - there is no such thing as a ground dragon in Chinese mythos - dragons fly or swim, they are celestial creatures - they don't walk / crawl on the floor - that's what snakes do (also, there is nothing in that form that characterizes dragon, but that's neither here nor there);

as for the Buddha fist set being "internal" - it's all wrong - there's nothing in that form that relates to classical 'internal' practice at all - just doing moves slowly and sticking your leg out at odd angles and holding it there and them coming into some crossed leg stances doesn't make it internal; internal practice has very specific aspects, and that form doesn't fulfill a single one;

it's fraud guys, pure and simple;

I linked to those two forms because there's independant evidence that these two forms are still being taught, independant of Sin The, in Indonesia. The videos of Indonesian students doing these same forms are on the SD thread. Also another poster linked to another forum where Sal Calzone (sorry I butchered the spelling) indicated that he has seen the same Buddha Fist form practiced in a Chinese lineage that is independant from Sin The.

"Not that I want to ever defend Sin The's stuff, but I have seen this exact some form being done by another Chinese lineage not related to Sin The whatsoever. They most have this confused.

It's is a southern Chinese style set, it happens to be called "Taji Quan" it is not related to what we know as Taiji Quan from the Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao, etc., styles.

It is karate like in that southern style as well. The name of the style was Southern Shaolin LONG Fist, the other sets were karate like, as many Five Ancestor's southern styles as well, that were the ancestors to Okinanwan Karate."

So at least these two forms seem to have some legitimate history and lineage (even if it's not exactly what is told by Sin The).

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 07:20 AM

RJ797

10-24-2012, 07:24 AM

It was not taught by Sin The until after Garry Mullins took it off the videotape of the 1992 demo in Bandung. When asked back in 1992 what the form was Sin The did not know what it was and eventually said it was a Buddha Fist form which is why there has been confusion about the name. After seeing Garry Mullins do the form in a demo Sin The decided to take it off the video like Garry had and teach it out. No one had every seen or demonstrated that form before 1992.

Crushing Step

10-24-2012, 07:26 AM

Yes I was an SD guy for over 20 years and I defended it as much as anyone can. I still defend many aspects of it...

Thanks for the reply JP!

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 07:27 AM

RJ797

10-24-2012, 07:46 AM

Not according to OTD who posted here that he learned the form in 1974. Of course OTD could be lying about that.

Sin The wrote out a list of the material taught to date in the mid-80s - no mention of Buddha Fist or Fist of the Grand Ultimate Mercy

hskwarrior

10-24-2012, 08:49 AM

one way (of many) to tell is the names of the forms: they sound "kung fu-ish", but are actually names you never find elsewhere in legitimate TCMA - for example, "ground dragon" is ridiculous - there is no such thing as a ground dragon in Chinese mythos - dragons fly or swim, they are celestial creatures - they don't walk / crawl on the floor - that's what snakes do (also, there is nothing in that form that characterizes dragon, but that's neither here nor there);

thank you thank you thank you. my sentiments to the T.

as for the Buddha fist set being "internal" - it's all wrong - there's nothing in that form that relates to classical 'internal' practice at all - just doing moves slowly and sticking your leg out at odd angles and holding it there and them coming into some crossed leg stances doesn't make it internal; internal practice has very specific aspects, and that form doesn't fulfill a single one;

it's fraud guys, pure and simple;

thank you thank you thank you. my sentiments to the T.

hskwarrior

10-24-2012, 08:53 AM

I also wonder if songshan shaolin students can recognize any linking elements between this supposedly shaolin form and the other northern styles. Apart from the name, do you think it connects in any way with the wu xing ba fa set? How does this or wu xing ba fa connect with the older shaolin styles, if they do?

you guys need to leave our lineages ALONE. period. facking thieves.

I'm not giving away some precious secret, DFW did that, I just bought the DVD.

DFW should never have put this form on video for the masses. that was HIS mistake. we were totally up in arms when he did that. still, just because someone bought the video, it doesn't give them the right to take it and absorb it into their own system and give it a fake phony bunk alternative history. i will call everyone and their momma's out on this.

and YOU put the WHOLE MOTHA FUKKIN SET ON YOUTUBE AND JUST GAVE IT AWAY. can you pls place the video on private or take it down. this is my lineages entire form and you are just giving it away to just anyone. im asking you please do this for my lineage. thank you

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 09:02 AM

Sin The wrote out a list of the material taught to date in the mid-80s - no mention of Buddha Fist or Fist of the Grand Ultimate Mercy

I know what you are referring too. I'm just repeating what OTD has said.

RJ797

10-24-2012, 09:21 AM

Did you read what Sal wrote about the form? Do you know who he is?

Crushing Step

10-24-2012, 09:56 AM

and YOU put the WHOLE MOTHA FUKKIN SET ON YOUTUBE AND JUST GAVE IT AWAY. can you pls place the video on private or take it down. this is my lineages entire form and you are just giving it away to just anyone. im asking you please do this for my lineage. thank you

HSK, I thought there were two deficiencies in the video: A missing sequence, plus a false sequence, that would separate this set from the authentic one.

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 10:14 AM

bawang

10-24-2012, 10:21 AM

the road of cults lead to madness and self destruction.

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:27 AM

the road of cults lead to madness and self destruction.

or the road of cults can lead to large harems of insanely loyal women who will kill for you.

its like a 50/50

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:29 AM

soooo clooose

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:30 AM

i wanted to have this point be in the middle of the night so i could ninja the 1k post

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:31 AM

I'm just going to have to try and ninja in broad daylight instead, but i fear someone will beat me.

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:31 AM

get ready for it

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:32 AM

are you all ready?

bawang

10-24-2012, 10:36 AM

danny devito is powerful warrior. maybe even more power than sin the

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:36 AM

i hope you are all ready cuz its about to happen

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:37 AM

danny devito is powerful warrior. maybe even more power than sin the

so you saw that huh? why you delete.

bawang

10-24-2012, 10:37 AM

will thre be balloonbs

i would like balloons

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:37 AM

will thre be balloonbs

i would like balloons

no balloons sorry

bawang

10-24-2012, 10:37 AM

so you saw that huh? why you delete.

trying to psych u so i get 1000th post

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:38 AM

fug you dog

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:39 AM

ha mo fo!!!!!

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 10:39 AM

As soon as we get to 1000 someone will delete a bunch of their posts.

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:40 AM

muahahahahha

Lucas

10-24-2012, 10:43 AM

quick some mod needs to lock this mufugga now!!!

pazman

10-24-2012, 11:03 AM

I take my eye off the thread for 1 hour and look what happens.

hskwarrior

10-24-2012, 11:06 AM

I thought it was on private: Only people with the link can access it. But Frank if anyone learns this form, they need to be honest with the origins and lineage.

they do. and i still haven't seen your lineage be honest about it yet. just a couple of guys on a forum. i want leaders of SHAOLIN DO to acknowledge the true source, do it as HUNG SING or even say it came from the book. but GIVE US OUR PROPER CREDIT FROM HERE ON OUT.

Lucas

10-24-2012, 11:06 AM

:D word :D

Lucas

10-24-2012, 11:11 AM

now its a delete battle!

kwaichang

10-24-2012, 11:13 AM

Ok so here we are again. 1000. The most popular MA in the whole KFF. KC

kwaichang

10-24-2012, 11:15 AM

So no one believes Su Kong Dai Jin was real , ? how bout the midget monk then ? is Fu Jao real ? they all have legends. even wong fei hung is legendary. KC:D

Lucas

10-24-2012, 11:20 AM

I'm legendary too! But only in certain parts of the world.

buddajoe

10-24-2012, 11:26 AM

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 11:29 AM

So no one believes Su Kong Dai Jin was real , ? how bout the midget monk then ? is Fu Jao real ? they all have legends. even wong fei hung is legendary. KC:D

I am legend.

Seriously, you're right, most, if not all lineages of traditional martial arts have some wonky fairy-tale at it's origins. None of them are probably true and serve as allegory and oral tradition. To be fair, the difference, I think, is a longer tradition of teacher to student teaching the same material with that material sharing fundamental common denominators that are consistent. In SD, the common denominator is Sin The but the forms are all over the place.

Mas Judt made an interesting point about this type of hyperbole and embellishment being cultural (especially in Indonesia and in Kung Tao lineages). Heck, we could spend hours ripping apart things that the Willem de Thouars has said. But the difference is that he doesn't call his art the true expersion of Shaolin and he doesn't claim to be the grandmaster inheritor of Shaolin. If Sin The did what he did (and just called it kung tao) this would not be as big an issue.

hskwarrior

10-24-2012, 11:31 AM

HSK, I thought there were two deficiencies in the video: A missing sequence, plus a false sequence, that would separate this set from the authentic one.

i purposely chop up forms we care about. i just didn't want to whole thing available to everyone. but buddhajoe said something about it reaching millions. i have no problem with that. just tell the true source of it.

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 11:49 AM

they do. and i still haven't seen your lineage be honest about it yet. just a couple of guys on a forum. i want leaders of SHAOLIN DO to acknowledge the true source, do it as HUNG SING or even say it came from the book. but GIVE US OUR PROPER CREDIT FROM HERE ON OUT.

I will, but I have no control over anyone else.

GeneChing

10-24-2012, 01:41 PM

This thread has had quite a journey to 1K+.

I'm merging the Professor Lau Bun's U-Ming thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1191562#post1191562)soon. Despite all of this, I still plan to keep SD corralled into one thread here.

Empty_Cup

10-24-2012, 02:18 PM

http://www.sinthe.com/

that says it right there. never question your karate roots again.

Funny, first thing I saw when going to that site was "Kung Fu and Tai Chi." Guess I should never question the Kung Fu roots again?:D

Leto

10-24-2012, 02:37 PM

you guys need to leave our lineages ALONE. period. facking thieves.

DFW should never have put this form on video for the masses. that was HIS mistake. we were totally up in arms when he did that. still, just because someone bought the video, it doesn't give them the right to take it and absorb it into their own system and give it a fake phony bunk alternative history. i will call everyone and their momma's out on this.

and YOU put the WHOLE MOTHA FUKKIN SET ON YOUTUBE AND JUST GAVE IT AWAY. can you pls place the video on private or take it down. this is my lineages entire form and you are just giving it away to just anyone. im asking you please do this for my lineage. thank you

Just anyone can't see the video, only the forum participants. I felt that was private enough, as I did know there might be some concern about it. I will take it down eventually, when this discussion dies down. As I said before, Doc Fai Wong is the one who gave it away, he made an instructional video so people could learn it, your concern is twenty+ years too late.

I thought this would have been a favor to you. Everyone keeps going back and forth about wanting to see the form, they want to see the differences and similarities, you keep telling them to go visit your teacher, you don't want to put up video of yourself doing it understandably because you might upset your teacher or someone in your lineage, don't want to give away your teaching. So I did it, there is no blame or responsibility on you, and it is the public version that has been available to anyone with a credit card for over twenty years. Now everyone who knows the version learned from Sin The can see and make up their mind about it's source, if they had any question remaining. If they learn something from the clip I put up, it will be no different than having learned it from Sin The, which is to say learning it second hand without the proper foundation. I also thought this public version has markers which you and other Hung Sing will recognize, so it isn't even the "complete" form.

That question about wuxing bafa and northern shaolin is a legitimate question. There are a few people on this forum who actually practice legit shaolin, and are quite learned and well travelled, and might have some insight into ways that connect this form with shaolin. This would give credence to Lau Bun's story that it is a northern shaolin form. But they need to see it before they could tell anything.

Yes, Sin The and the Shaolin Do leadership should tell the truth about where all their forms came from, as should anyone who teaches those forms. I think I want that more than you do, because I actually learned from them. But that isn't going to happen because of a forum. Those of us who see the truth, admit it. We aren't going to stop practicing a form we know and love, despite the crazy path it took to get to us. Each person is going to make it work in whatever way they can.

hskwarrior

10-24-2012, 02:47 PM

taai gihk yahn

10-24-2012, 03:45 PM

I linked to those two forms because there's independant evidence that these two forms are still being taught, independant of Sin The, in Indonesia. The videos of Indonesian students doing these same forms are on the SD thread. Also another poster linked to another forum where Sal Calzone (sorry I butchered the spelling) indicated that he has seen the same Buddha Fist form practiced in a Chinese lineage that is independant from Sin The.

"Not that I want to ever defend Sin The's stuff, but I have seen this exact some form being done by another Chinese lineage not related to Sin The whatsoever. They most have this confused.

It's is a southern Chinese style set, it happens to be called "Taji Quan" it is not related to what we know as Taiji Quan from the Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao, etc., styles.

It is karate like in that southern style as well. The name of the style was Southern Shaolin LONG Fist, the other sets were karate like, as many Five Ancestor's southern styles as well, that were the ancestors to Okinanwan Karate."

So at least these two forms seem to have some legitimate history and lineage (even if it's not exactly what is told by Sin The).

vids of Indonesian students practicing those forms do not necessarily mean it is independent of Sin The / SD; the question would be if not from ST/SD, then where?

if it was Sal Canzoneri who verified the Buddha Fist forms independent existence, that is a markedly reliable source, and if that is in fact the case, then I stand corrected;

overall, I am still rather dubious about it...

Leto

10-24-2012, 04:07 PM

Ok, for anyone who hasn't seen it but wants a comparison to what we were taught in SD/CSC, here's the complete five animal form by DFW. It's not listed on youtube, you can only get there by the link.
This is commercially available, so anyone could see it if they wanted to, and it is only five minutes of a fifty minute instructional video. I'm not giving away some precious secret, DFW did that, I just bought the DVD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpt__6sH8tU

I also wonder if songshan shaolin students can recognize any linking elements between this supposedly shaolin form and the other northern styles. Apart from the name, do you think it connects in any way with the wu xing ba fa set? How does this or wu xing ba fa connect with the older shaolin styles, if they do?

Doc Fai Wong's Shaolin Five Animal form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpt__6sH8tU

Ok, I have made the video private, instead of unlisted, out of sensitivity for strong feelings about this. If someone wants to see it, you'll need to PM me with your youtube username or email address (you still need a youtube account to see it).

I put it up so that everyone can be better informed about the subject of this thread. You can't accurately judge whether something is the same or different if you don't see the whole thing. Just one or two sections isn't enough. Now we need to see a full version of the way it is taught in SD, and compare side by side. Put to rest the doubts. Also, watch earlier clips of the form being performed by DFW and others. Different, similar? Compare with northern shaolin styles. Any seeds of connection?

hskwarrior

10-24-2012, 04:33 PM

Ok, I have made the video private, instead of unlisted, out of sensitivity for strong feelings about this. If someone wants to see it, you'll need to PM me with your youtube username or email address (you still need a youtube account to see it).

thank you. now thats honorable. i respect that.

understand, pls, that this form is not some average form. its pretty high level and there are element missing that are not in that video. and yes i mean the internal side.

my school under my sifu never liked the fact that dfw published that form in a book. it wasn't meant for the masses. but he did what he did and he can't change anything. I didn't want the whole form up for people to see because we treasure that form and work hard at perfecting it. my sifu, my sigung and DFW are among the best to perform this form in our lineage. however, the video recently posted of him doing it isn't like how he used to perform it.

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 04:40 PM

vids of Indonesian students practicing those forms do not necessarily mean it is independent of Sin The / SD; the question would be if not from ST/SD, then where?

if it was Sal Canzoneri who verified the Buddha Fist forms independent existence, that is a markedly reliable source, and if that is in fact the case, then I stand corrected;

overall, I am still rather dubious about it...

I was told it was. I quoted that from another forum. I think there's a link to that forum directly on the SD thread. Of course Sal can speak for himself.

I'm not sure I follow your other point. The students in Indonesia are from the school where Sin the learned. There were more than one teacher there. These forms were learned in Indonesia by those students after Sin and Hiang The moved to the US. It doens't answer the question where the forms came from, but it does say that there is an origin to these forms that was not fabricated from The and still survive independant of him and SD.

hskwarrior

10-24-2012, 04:41 PM

Compare with northern shaolin styles. Any seeds of connection?
__________________

The Tan Tui is one northern connection we share. but if you ask me, most of the moves in the form resemble CLF more than anything aside from the Tan Tui.

Jimbo

10-24-2012, 05:00 PM

Wanted to be on page 1000.

But instead started 1001.

:D

Judge Pen

10-24-2012, 05:10 PM

Leto

10-24-2012, 05:16 PM

Today I laugh in the same way!

Now all can see one version of the five-animal and compare. I know that all those who have learned this form from dubious teachers may see themselves the differences and the beauty of a righteous form.

The bottom line is that DFW did something great. His book tells the whole world that Professor Lau Bun first brought the five-animal to America. It is also a specific form for Choy Lee Fut, Hung Sing style, originating in San Francisco.
Jew Sifu told me that the Professor had over ten thousand students. Sifu told me that he had had over ten thousand students (mid 80’s) and perhaps Dino would do the same. The book DFW wrote would have much more readers. If I am to believe the DFW is closing in on one million students then I have no worries about the book or the video.
The video is now a closing statement. I believe that the video was made much earier than the book. ESPY was the company and it advertised in the martial art mags. please correct if I am in error.

You are correct, this is from the ESPY video, still available on their website. I don't know what year it was published, there there is no copyright date given anywhere on the video or the sleeve it came in, but I am sure it is a port from VHS. The book was published in 1987, and ESPY TV started in 1983, so it couldn't have been too much earlier, just a few years. However DFW looks younger in the book photos than in the video, so I can't tell which came first.

hskwarrior

10-24-2012, 05:16 PM

That makes sense. The base is CLF so any other forms are filtered through the fundamentals as you know them. The real question is what did your 5 Animal form look like before it was filtered through Lau Bun's knowledge of CLF?

that would indeed be interesting. i would love to see something even remotely close to this form from an authentic lineage.

taai gihk yahn

10-24-2012, 05:21 PM

I was told it was. I quoted that from another forum. I think there's a link to that forum directly on the SD thread. Of course Sal can speak for himself.
indeed he can; although right now he's laid up in a hospital bed recovering from surgery and flirting w nurses...

I'm not sure I follow your other point. The students in Indonesia are from the school where Sin the learned. There were more than one teacher there. These forms were learned in Indonesia by those students after Sin and Hiang The moved to the US. It doens't answer the question where the forms came from, but it does say that there is an origin to these forms that was not fabricated from The and still survive independant of him and SD.
ok, that sounds reasonable;

taai gihk yahn

10-24-2012, 05:27 PM

The Tan Tui is one northern connection we share. but if you ask me, most of the moves in the form resemble CLF more than anything aside from the Tan Tui.

That makes sense. The base is CLF so any other forms are filtered through the fundamentals as you know them. The real question is what did your 5 Animal form look like before it was filtered through Lau Bun's knowledge of CLF?

that would indeed be interesting. i would love to see something even remotely close to this form from an authentic lineage.

the opening def look more "northern" than CLF-ish, it also looks very "qigong-y" - the one-legged stuff is all luhng yihng (dragon) based - it's very similar to parts of the Gong Luhng Fuhk Fu qigong set I know (which AFAIK is a Taoist Dragon Gate Sect practice), although certain nuances have gotten lost in the translation (e.g. - Dragon movements are very sinuous, and actually when you play it that way, it's easier to make the transitions that DFW seems to be having trouble doing - in other words, you don't move/stop/move/stop - the whole sequence has a continuity of flow - that way u don't have the issue w the instability that happens when u try to stop as u hit a given posture...it's also next to impossible to figure out this quality on ur own, as it's very subtle, it starts w the eyes and the multifidi, which is what makes it internal, hehehe...)

bawang

10-24-2012, 05:57 PM

the opening def look more "northern" than CLF-ish

it has taizu longfist salute

mooyingmantis

10-24-2012, 06:36 PM

do you know how many people all around the world check out this forum? do you realize how widespread this forum is? its NOT just the handfull of people. you gave EVERYONE who checks out this forum access to that video.

your intentions might have been honorable. but honestly, it opens the wound wider than helping it close. i'm sorry.

Bro, its just a **** form. It's not the holy grail. You really are this upset because he put a link up to a video of a form that probably hundreds if not thousands of people bought? Just seems silly to me.

hskwarrior

10-24-2012, 09:23 PM

Bro, its just a **** form. It's not the holy grail. You really are this upset because he put a link up to a video of a form that probably hundreds if not thousands of people bought? Just seems silly to me.
____

u missed the point.

mooyingmantis

10-25-2012, 04:44 AM

u missed the point.

No, I get the point.

You believe SD learned the form from video, then created their own "history" of how it came into their system. Yep, that was wrong by modern standards. Though instructors have been stealing information from other styles since the beginning of martial arts. So, it is nothing new.

Should they give proper recognition to your lineage for the form? Sure, that would be the honest thing to do.

Should you get excited because someone put the form on YouTube and provided a link to it? That is the part that I feel is silly. The cat was let out of the bag decades ago. Its kittens are everywhere. :)

I practice Tanglangquan. The major portion of our curriculum can be found on YouTube. Even the parts that used to be "teh secretz". It has had little effect on the Mantis families. Just because someone can mimic our forms, doesn't mean they understand the applications or principles behind them. I bet the same holds true for a great system like CLF.

My first mantis instructor was also a CLF instructor in DFW's line. I remember him showing me the same 5 Animal Form back in the mid-80s. Nice form, but nothing secret.