Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Drake]

Thieves justifying their thievery. And THEN whining like little *****es when they get called out on it.

[hskwarrior]

Thieves justifying their thievery. And THEN whining like little *****es when they get called out on it.
____

thats the worst part of it all. supposed to be some grown up ass people. their true faces showed up quite clearly.

[Syn7]

wow , I think I am gonna cry, NoT! What a dumb@$$. you all think really high of yourselves, bullsh!t. Just sh!t talking @$$holes.

Wow! He was being nice and you still broke? He was forthright and honest about his opinion and was relatively civilized and you still lost your composure?


Reminds me of when I was arguing with an ex of mine. She would never EVER give any ground and when she was backed into a corner with no intelligent answer she would just lash out. Needless to say, the relationship didn't last long.

I think it's okay to be wrong. What isn't okay is when people can't ever admit to being wrong. We are all wrong all the time. Sometimes we know it, sometimes we don't. We all say things we wish we could take back or re-word for more clarity. When it's brought to our attention the grown up thing to do is to acknowledge the mistake and move on. Saying "FU man, FU(kc's words), what an @sshole(yours), bluh bluh" are words of frustration. Very irrational. Weak.

[Jimbo]

I really can't understand why it's so difficult for some to just be honest about the source of something. I have no problem admitting I learned the CLF Cheung Kune set, markers and all, off of a DVD, the only form I've ever learned that way. True, I've already been in CLF nearly 20 years by now, so it's not such a stretch to pick it up. I can't imagine trying to learn any set from CLF with no basics, apps, etc., etc., and only a karate background and trying to incorporate it, though.

[kwaichang]

Say any more your ignorance, rudeness and purile attitude out shines the sun KC:)

[hskwarrior]

Wow! He was being nice and you still broke? He was forthright and honest about his opinion and was relatively civilized and you still lost your composure?

bustas will be bustas bro. all bark, no bite. Simpin ain't easy, but somone gotta do it.

[taai gihk yahn]

Wow! He was being nice and you still broke? He was forthright and honest about his opinion and was relatively civilized and you still lost your composure?


Reminds me of when I was arguing with an ex of mine. She would never EVER give any ground and when she was backed into a corner with no intelligent answer she would just lash out. Needless to say, the relationship didn't last long.

I think it's okay to be wrong. What isn't okay is when people can't ever admit to being wrong. We are all wrong all the time. Sometimes we know it, sometimes we don't. We all say things we wish we could take back or re-word for more clarity. When it's brought to our attention the grown up thing to do is to acknowledge the mistake and move on. Saying "FU man, FU(kc's words), what an @sshole(yours), bluh bluh" are words of frustration. Very irrational. Weak.
I wish I could say I had expected better, but honestly I didn't; he's pretty puerile in that regard, altho I wager he fancies himself quite the raconteur...

[taai gihk yahn]

bustas will be bustas bro. all bark, no bite. Simpin ain't easy, but somone gotta do it.

If I might avail myself of the opportunity to graciously respond to you, sir, in your own lingua franca:

<ahem>

True dat!

I believe that I have aptly communicated the pith of the matter.

[hskwarrior]

If I might avail myself of the opportunity to graciously respond to you, sir, in your own lingua franca:

<ahem>

True dat!

I believe that I have aptly communicated the pith of the matter.

oh! i see. an aristocrat!!!! :D

[GeneChing]

you'd be a KUNGARATE.

Never mind Big Bird...
TV Series, "Kanga Roddy" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPPJyzJYkR4)

:o

[taai gihk yahn]

Never mind Big Bird...
TV Series, "Kanga Roddy" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPPJyzJYkR4)

:o

I...


I...


Ay-yai-yaaaaai....

[David Jamieson]

thats the worst part of it all. supposed to be some grown up ass people. their true faces showed up quite clearly.

grown up ass people?

lol :p

[hskwarrior]

yes. grown UP ASS people :D

[wenshu]

http://i.imgur.com/NBRoK.gif

[One student]

http://www.sinthe.com/

that says it right there. never question your karate roots again.

I have to say, sir, you've done a lot better than that in your critiques before. You act like you've discovered some big secret. Sin The's school was called "Sin The Karate School," and even "Shaolin Karate-Do", starting back in the 60's. Back then I suspect if he called it "kung fu" no one would have known what he was talking about, but "karate" was not unheard of. I would also suspect back then more people, when they heard the word "karate," thought of Asian martial arts in general, and didn't know karate from judo. Although I wasn't there and have no authority for this, I've always theorized that GMT's school in Indonesia didn't get all hung up on what they called their "style," i.e. "kung fu" or anything else, and so when he started his classes in Lexington, Kentucky in the mid 60's, he just picked a name (or more accurately a "word") that back then was synonymous with "martial arts" in general, and he didn't care (or more likely didn't think about) people complaining, 50 years later, that it's not really "karate" in the sense of coming from Japan or Okinawa. Or maybe, with all the other Japanese traditions observed (uniforms like gi's, belts, "dan" ranking, "kata," etc.), the word "karate" was used in Indonesia, too.

And not knowing the difference was not just Kentucky. Here's soem trivia: read "Goldfinger," first published in the 50's, Ian Fleming talks about Oddjob's mastery of Karate like no one had ever heard of it, comparing it to judo "like a Howitzer is to a flyswatter," or something like that. (Fleming did the same thing in introducing Ninjitsu in "You Only Live Twice" a few years later; I think maybe the first Western mention of it in literature?).

But just saying "karate" on a sign or label doesn't mean it has its origins in Japanese or Okinawan arts. Of course you and many others have complained that using the word "Shaolin" in the same sign and label is bogus. If there is some karate elements in it, or it just looks that way to some people from some examples of its practitioners, that is one thing, but a word picked 50 years ago does not make it so.

[wenshu]

I have to say, sir, you've done a lot better than that in your critiques before. You act like you've discovered some big secret. Sin The's school was called "Sin The Karate School," and even "Shaolin Karate-Do", starting back in the 60's. Back then I suspect if he called it "kung fu" no one would have known what he was talking about, but "karate" was not unheard of. I would also suspect back then more people, when they heard the word "karate," thought of Asian martial arts in general, and didn't know karate from judo. Although I wasn't there and have no authority for this, I've always theorized that GMT's school in Indonesia didn't get all hung up on what they called their "style," i.e. "kung fu" or anything else, and so when he started his classes in Lexington, Kentucky in the mid 60's, he just picked a name (or more accurately a "word") that back then was synonymous with "martial arts" in general, and he didn't care (or more likely didn't think about) people complaining, 50 years later, that it's not really "karate" in the sense of coming from Japan or Okinawa. Or maybe, with all the other Japanese traditions observed (uniforms like gi's, belts, "dan" ranking, "kata," etc.), the word "karate" was used in Indonesia, too.

And not knowing the difference was not just Kentucky. Here's soem trivia: read "Goldfinger," first published in the 50's, Ian Fleming talks about Oddjob's mastery of Karate like no one had ever heard of it, comparing it to judo "like a Howitzer is to a flyswatter," or something like that. (Fleming did the same thing in introducing Ninjitsu in "You Only Live Twice" a few years later; I think maybe the first Western mention of it in literature?).

But just saying "karate" on a sign or label doesn't mean it has its origins in Japanese or Okinawan arts. Of course you and many others have complained that using the word "Shaolin" in the same sign and label is bogus. If there is some karate elements in it, or it just looks that way to some people from some examples of its practitioners, that is one thing, but a word picked 50 years ago does not make it so.

Or maybe he called it "Sin The's Karate School" because he was teaching karate.

http://i.imgur.com/Q3wx6.gif

[-N-]

http://i.imgur.com/NBRoK.gif

Holy cr4p...

Looks like he stole that from a bad Shaw brothers trailer.

[-N-]

Need some eye bleach after that gif.

http://eyebleach.com/

You are welcome.

[kwaichang]

When Funakoshi moved from Okinawa to Japan and started teaching Kara Te" empty hand" he changed the 1st kanji from China Hand to Karate to make it more palatable for the Japanese. He was teaching China Hand M/A justa thought was he wrong in doing that as well ? KC

[kwaichang]

What does that mean and is that the best u can do to my question? KC

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCcMYhcUpKk&feature=relmfu

This is our beginner level Dao form. I'm assuming that these videos are from the 1992 Indonesia trip where SD people trained and demonstrated with the students from the school that remained in Bangdung. Regardless, I learved this form before this video was taken and it has been a staple in SD curriculim for several years.

Unfortunately, these videos of SD material being performed in Indonesia by students who did not lear from Sin The have been removed. That is unfortunate because these videos are very instructive on what SD is and is not. What you would see is a hybrid style of kung fu and other elements mixed with indigenous Indonesian martial principles. It would be just as inaccurate to simply throw a label on it as "Karate" as it would be to call it "shaolin kung fu". It may have elements of CMA, IMA and even JMA, but it is its own style.

They are his videos and he could take them down if he wanted, but I personally don't think there was a good reason to do so and wish they would have stayed up.

[Empty_Cup]

Unfortunately, these videos of SD material being performed in Indonesia by students who did not lear from Sin The have been removed. That is unfortunate because these videos are very instructive on what SD is and is not. What you would see is a hybrid style of kung fu and other elements mixed with indigenous Indonesian martial principles. It would be just as inaccurate to simply throw a label on it as "Karate" as it would be to call it "shaolin kung fu". It may have elements of CMA, IMA and even JMA, but it is its own style.

They are his videos and he could take them down if he wanted, but I personally don't think there was a good reason to do so and wish they would have stayed up.

Which elements in your opinion are distinctively Indonesian?

[wenshu]

Which elements in your opinion are distinctively Indonesian?

The Karate.

Before Sin The and his students added Chinese forms learned from books and videos it was just Karate from Indonesia.

[Jimbo]

When Funakoshi moved from Okinawa to Japan and started teaching Kara Te" empty hand" he changed the 1st kanji from China Hand to Karate to make it more palatable for the Japanese. He was teaching China Hand M/A justa thought was he wrong in doing that as well ? KC

Karate is not just a variation of CMA, but also mixed with Tode, or Ti, an indigenous Okinawan MA. Karate itself was looked down upon in during its early days in Japan, not seen as a true 'budo' as the native 'mainland' Japanese arts of Kendo, Judo, etc., etc.

[Jimbo]

I believe it was considered a type of art that was more 'violent' and from a coarser pedigree. Its Chinese association also did not help. Also, Okinawans in general were often looked down upon by mainland Japanese at that time. Okinawa was seen as a primitive backwater.

In reality, Jujutsu went through its own period of poor reputation among many Japanese as an art mainly for gangsters. Judo is a modernized form of Jujutsu.

[pazman]

http://i.imgur.com/NBRoK.gif

Wow! Praying Mantis! What is the name of this Preying Mantis Kata? Looks very powerful and traditional. At point can Shaolin Do students use the fearsome Mantis Poke in the Ippon Kumite?

[pazman]

http://i.imgur.com/Q3wx6.gif

These moves are very deceptive. They might lead opponents to think that he forgot what he is doing. Smart strategy!

[Judge Pen]

The Karate.

Before Sin The and his students added Chinese forms learned from books and videos it was just Karate from Indonesia.

Did you see the videos or are you just talking out of you arse?

[Judge Pen]

"Not that I want to ever defend Sin The's stuff, but I have seen this exact some form being done by another Chinese lineage not related to Sin The whatsoever. They most have this confused.

It's is a southern Chinese style set, it happens to be called "Taji Quan" it is not related to what we know as Taiji Quan from the Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao, etc., styles.

It is karate like in that southern style as well. The name of the style was Southern Shaolin LONG Fist, the other sets were karate like, as many Five Ancestor's southern styles as well, that were the ancestors to Okinanwan Karate."

Sal Canzonieri quote from another forum in discussing a video of Gary Grooms doing the "Buddha Fist" form which was one of the forms demonstrated by one of the Indonesian students in Bandung in 1992.

[wenshu]

Post any video performance of any Shaolin-Do Chinese form and I am willing to bet that we can find the book or video series it was lifted from.

[Empty_Cup]

Post any video performance of any Shaolin-Do Chinese form and I am willing to bet that we can find the book or video series it was lifted from.

And once that form was posted and no book or video series was found, would all the naysayers suddenly change their position?

We all know the answer to that.

[wenshu]

You have got it backwards.

After it is demonstrated that all the xing yi, bagua, taichi, hua, tiger crane, 5 animals etc was all lifted from books and videos you guys would still be making desperate convoluted justifications.

[Empty_Cup]

...
After it is demonstrated that all the xing yi, bagua, taichi, hua, tiger crane, 5 animals etc was all lifted from books and videos ....

Looks like you have your work cut out for you.

Let us know when you've compiled all this "proof."

[Empty_Cup]

... you guys would still be making desperate convoluted justifications.

Not all of us who defend or practice SD are attempting to make "desperate convoluted justifications" as you say. Speaking for myself, I'm simply taking the information as it comes in and trying to fit it to some picture of what the reality is/was.

Most of what's come out thus far doesn't really give a great picture of what did or did not happen. How does anybody other than GMS really know where the material he taught came from? Hsiang The would be a good resource but I don't have any contact with him or his students. Even information from the GMS deposition seems to be contradictory.

GMS's position in the deposition is: He created most of the material up through 1st black, thus his copyright has merit. They specifically mention 1-30 short kata, 1-20 sparring techniques, bird forms, 4-Way Door Break, and Flying Tiger. I can find the references if needed. He also states that the content of the longer katas were created by him but the names were based on katas taught at the temple (with a few exceptions like Performing Dove).

Without seeing what's on the tape, I think it's safe to assume most of the other material up through 1st/2nd black was also on the tape.

From this there comes a number of conflicting things (most of which you mentioned):
1) How does Hsiang The also know/teach the bird forms? He apparently produced notes showing his knowledge of these from the court case in Kentucky. At that time his notes were used to prove GMS did NOT make up these forms but were in fact taught to both of them from GM Ie.

2) What about all of the other material above 1st/2nd black? It's entirely possible this material was learned from GM Ie. Whether this means it comes from the temple is nearly impossible to verify since he and GM Tai Djinn are dead. With little independent verification of GM Tai Djinn's existence, the best we have is 2nd/3rd hand hearsay. And the material GMS "majored" in is beyond 1st/2nd black.

3) Why and how does GMS produce detailed notes for each of the materials that include the Chinese characters, training, etc.? If he made up all of this, that is a pretty impressive feat. Also, most of the old-timers have said these things were taught in the early 60s and 70s. So if GMS thought he was pulling a fast one over on all the "uneducated" masses, why go to the bother of creating such detailed movement names and training in both English and Chinese?

4) How is it that during the 1992 trip to Bandung, the White Lotus Society demonstrated a number of the lower-belt materials supposedly created by GMS? Did he create this back during his time in Indonesia?

[wenshu]

I'm sorry, you obviously have me mistaken for someone who actually gives a ****. I never meant to imply that I was actually going to do it, I just bet it is possible.

I asked for desperate and convoluted justifications and you eagerly provided. Thank you.

[Drake]

If you find a stolen car in SD's garage (5 Animals), it's safe to assume there's more stolen goods inside.

[kwaichang]

I do believe there is the assumption of guilt , but guilt has to be proven. If a form is given into public domain or a book then it is not stolen. One cant copywrite a form or a hook shot in basket ball from what i understand. But JP could present thiis as true or not. You guys remind me of people who hate Abortion and are pro Death penalty. Wishy washy w/o direction. KC

[kwaichang]

You mistake Honor for Law and often they dont coincide. So if it is in a book and you learn it you can use it to make money much like computer books and school etc. KC:)

[Lucas]

but guilt has to be proven.

in most courts of law yes. but as far as public opinion and consumption goes, thats not the case. we can assume he is guilty and form our opinions of him based on that assumption if we want to.

besides its a pretty well educated guess. if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and tastes like a roasted duck...

[kwaichang]

No I dont agree with what was done in court, and think there are some discrepancies there , But as far as teaching a form from a tape or book I feel that is OK. as long as lies dont coincide with it. It is the Lying I dont like. I like spreading The arts though. I know many who have lied who on here have never lied or borrowed a technique here and there. W/O giving credit. You all seem to forget we all fall short. KC Master Po said "who among us are without Flaw? " KC

[kwaichang]

No I am not Jake? dont know him, I am like you trying to get back in shape after a bad injury . and lose weight as well. But what do you mean mess with the wrong people????????????????????????. Just wondering KC

[Lucas]

ah the good ol days lol

[bawang]

IN THE OLD DAYS, HIS SCHOOL COULDA BURNED DOWN FOR STUFF LIKE THAT



in the old days, we would catch him with rope, then throw into cage with 20 wild chocolate men. he becomes the middle of the oreo cookie. then the spirit of guan gong can be appeased.

[Judge Pen]

Post any video performance of any Shaolin-Do Chinese form and I am willing to bet that we can find the book or video series it was lifted from.

Since you ignored my question it's safe to say that you didn't see the Indonesian videos and are talking out your ass. Cool. :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqQoaMAXaU&playnext=1&list=PLBA6EABD63D4D7C28&feature=results_video

This is the video that prompted Sal's quote. No show me the book or video where it was stolen from......

[bawang]

This is the video that prompted Sal's quote. No show me the book or video where it was stolen from......

looks made up.

[Judge Pen]

looks made up.

1. Not according to Sal; and
2. Everything was at some point, but by whom?

[bawang]

1. Not according to Sal; and
2. Everything was at some point, but by whom?

the form is a mish mash of moves from different styles.

sin the probably chopped up forms from books and rearranged them.

[Judge Pen]

the form is a mish mash of moves from different styles.

sin the probably chopped up forms from books and rearranged them.

I think Sal's observations are more credible, but for argument's sake, what specific moves and styles can you observe in this form?

[bawang]

i have to agree

you do know they have stolen choy lee fut moves in that "tai chi" form? but its so badly butchered its not recognizable.

I think Sal's observations are more credible, but for argument's sake, what specific moves and styles can you observe in this form?

keep disrespecting me and i will break it down for thousands of martial artists to read. i have no problem exposing and humiliating defilers of shaolin. i love it when you talk dirty to me.

[Judge Pen]

JP,

Do you have any chinese sources for this form or just from your lineage?



i have to agree

All I have is what my teacher told me about it when he taught it (that it is related to tai chi, but not one of the major tai chi lineages) and what Sal said about it in another forum and I have seen video from Bandung Indonesia from 1992 of students there doing this and other forms that are taught in SD. I freely admit that Sin The has lied and stolen forms, but because of the students in Indonesia doing these forms independant of Sin The I think this is one of the forms that was actually taught at Sin's school in Indonesia.

If someone found a book or a video of this form (like Hung Sing's 5 Animal form) then I may revise my opinions.

[Judge Pen]

"Not that I want to ever defend Sin The's stuff, but I have seen this exact some form being done by another Chinese lineage not related to Sin The whatsoever. They most have this confused.

It's is a southern Chinese style set, it happens to be called "Taji Quan" it is not related to what we know as Taiji Quan from the Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao, etc., styles.

It is karate like in that southern style as well. The name of the style was Southern Shaolin LONG Fist, the other sets were karate like, as many Five Ancestor's southern styles as well, that were the ancestors to Okinanwan Karate."

Sal Canzonieri quote from another forum in discussing a video of Gary Grooms doing the "Buddha Fist" form which was one of the forms demonstrated by one of the Indonesian students in Bandung in 1992.

Ok guys, please comment on what Sal said. Do you disagree? If so, why?

[bawang]

Ok guys, please comment on what Sal said. Do you disagree? If so, why?

sal said its a syncretic indonesian form which shaolin do claims is taichi, and also tries pathetically to do it like tai chi. what he said is possible.

either way it still is a fraud.

[Judge Pen]

sal said its a syncretic indonesian form which shaolin do claims is taichi, and also tries pathetically to do it like tai chi. what he said is possible.

either way it still is a fraud.

"I have seen this exact some form being done by another Chinese lineage not related to Sin The whatsoever."

"It's is a southern Chinese style set, it happens to be called "Taji Quan" it is not related to what we know as Taiji Quan from the Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao, etc., styles.

It is karate like in that southern style as well. The name of the style was Southern Shaolin LONG Fist, the other sets were karate like, as many Five Ancestor's southern styles as well, that were the ancestors to Okinanwan Karate."


There is plenty to criticize Sd, their usage without credit of Hung Sing 5AF being one of the most egregious, but Sal did not call this form a fraud.

[Judge Pen]

yo don't gemme started :eek:



i mean outside of bandung. I have an ex girlfriend who lives, and was born and raised in Bandung.

I think the key to sorting out what is legitimate from Sin The lineage is whatever vestiges of his school that is left in Bandung. We know SD isn't what he is trying to pass off here, but I'd like to know what he started with in Bandung.

[Judge Pen]

the form is called fut gar kuen.

-fut gar is a cantonese style with no links to indonesia, but has printed books in asia

-fut gar is not a form, it is a style

-fut gar has no northern movements

But that form is not "Fut Gar" despite it's name. Do you know of a book that has that particular form reprinted? If so, I'd love to see it and would likely change my opinion.

[bawang]

But that form is not "Fut Gar" despite it's name. Do you know of a book that has that particular form reprinted? If so, I'd love to see it and would likely change my opinion.




first move of the form: great bird spreads wings. the salute in many clf forms.

second move: immortal bows to buddha. made up fake move.

third move: immortal lifts plate. this is fujian white crane technique

fourth move: lotus kick. this is a northern longfist techinque.

fifth move: beauty gazes at mirror (twisting stance). this is a signature clf technique.

(yang style taichi ground snake)

sixth move: karate back kick

(yang style tai chi grasping sparrow tail)

gazing at lake from shuai jiao (wat the fuk) can also be swallow drinks water from longfist

(half of chen style taichi sealing and closing)

[tattooedmonk]

No one said it was tai chi, it's the fist of the goddess of mercy , you know the bodhisattva !? It's done slow like tai chi and has internal elements and is believe in china to be the precursor to tai chi. It's Buddhist not Taoist. Dumb@$$3$.

[Judge Pen]

Sal doesn't think it is made up. He thinks it is a set from Southern Shaolin Long Fist and he has seen it before.

Certianly it has been changed and modified, but so was Lau Bun's Five Animal Fist.

[bawang]

go beyond that! if he stuff is really shaolin then it will be found within shaolin then. there has to be outside sources since it carries the shaolin name. if it stops at bandung then you are practicing a malaysian version of whatever. you can't claim shaolin but have nothing shaolin.

sin the might have continued the legacy of fraud from bandung, since the tai chi form from bandung is also made up.


Sal doesn't think it is made up. He thinks it is a set from Southern Shaolin Long Fist and he has seen it before.

Certianly it has been changed and modified, but so was Lau Bun's Five Animal Fist.

its a mix of yang style tai chi and choy lee fut with stolen lyrics slapped on the techniques

the moves are cut from various styles, and the lyrics are also cut from various styles and randomly assigned to the moves.

[Judge Pen]

go beyond that! if he stuff is really shaolin then it will be found within shaolin then. there has to be outside sources since it carries the shaolin name. if it stops at bandung then you are practicing a malaysian version of whatever. you can't claim shaolin but have nothing shaolin.

The form we have been discussing was identified by Sal Cazonei (sp) as a set from Southern Shaolin Longfist. I think there were Chinese sets (not necessairly Shaolin) that were then modified and combined with whatever other martial arts influences (JMA, IMA etc) that was prevelant when this stuff was being taught. I think that is the root of what Sin The learned and then he came to America, starting calling himself a grandmaster and teaching, modifying and borrowing whatever else he saw fit to market. I'd like to focus on what was originally taught in bandung, in whatever form, to understand the history of SD.

[Judge Pen]

sin the might have continued the legacy of fraud from bandung, since the tai chi form from bandung is also made up.



its a mix of yang style tai chi and choy lee fut with stolen lyrics slapped on the techniques

the moves are cut from various styles, and the lyrics are also cut from various styles and randomly assigned to the moves.

Sure, Sin The's teachers might have made everything else up too, but your arguments do not address Sal's opinion that this set is from Southern Shaolin Longfist. Maybe Sin The or his teacher's stole it. That's a different argument than whether or not it is an authentic set.

[bawang]

Sure, Sin The's teachers might have made everything else up too, but your arguments do not address Sal's opinion that this set is from Southern Shaolin Longfist. Maybe Sin The or his teacher's stole it. That's a different argument than whether or not it is an authentic set.

this is not southern shaolin long fist. this is a mish mash of tai chi and choy lee fut.

theres no such thing as southern shaolin long fist.

[Judge Pen]

with stolen lyrics slapped on the techniques


This also gets into the confusion on the name. Someone is trying to convince me that Sin the first taught this form to a small number of students in 1974. Maybe (I wasn't even born then). There is another argument that Sin The didn't know this form personally and some of his students learned it during the 1992 trip to Indonesia. They then asked Sin The for the notes on the lyrics (becasue he is supposed to know EVERYTHING or so he says). So he made up the lyrics to a real set that is being taught in Indonesia. These are the two prevailing arguments that I've heard. I don't know which is true but I know which I believe.

[Judge Pen]

gene ching is shaolin. have you confirmed this with him? or any other shaolin family? don't depend on one guy

He is the only one that's commented on it, but I've heard other people here tell me that he is a reputible source (he is writing the Shaolin Encyclopedia). He might be wrong for all I know. At this point I'm skeptical of everything and I'm willing to listen to a number of opinions to help me sort out my own beliefs.

[bawang]

This also gets into the confusion on the name. Someone is trying to convince me that Sin the first taught this form to a small number of students in 1974. Maybe (I wasn't even born then). There is another argument that Sin The didn't know this form personally and some of his students learned it during the 1992 trip to Indonesia. They then asked Sin The for the notes on the lyrics (becasue he is supposed to know EVERYTHING or so he says). So he made up the lyrics to a real set that is being taught in Indonesia. These are the two prevailing arguments that I've heard. I don't know which is true but I know which I believe.

let us begin with the first move



this is a ready stance in choy lee fut and village hung kuen. when students do the form, they stretch out their hands to line up and make space.

this is not even supposed to be a technique.

sin the gave it the name "great bird spreads wings" which is part of the proper bak sing/hung sing clf salute. he probably thought the outstretched hands resemble wings.

[Judge Pen]

let us begin with the first move



this is a ready stance in choy lee fut and village hung kuen. when students do the form, they stretch out their hands to line up and make space.

this is not even supposed to be a technique.

sin the gave it the name "great bird spreads wings" which is part of the proper bak sing/hung sing clf salute. he probably thought the outstretched hands resemble wings.

Did you see the Indonesian videos before they were taken down? The performer in that video does this as well.

[bawang]

Did you see the Indonesian videos before they were taken down? The performer in that video does this as well.

then it is very simple, the indonesian performers are also frauds.

havent seen the video, if it is legit, then shaolin do has butchered it beyond recognition.


we can go on to technique number two when you are ready.

[Judge Pen]

then it is very simple, the indonesian performers are also frauds.

havent seen the video, if it is legit, then shaolin do has butchered it beyond recognition.


we can go on to technique number two when you are ready.

Maybe; that is certainly an argument. I'm open to any and all interpretations. I will say that the form wasn't "beyond recognition" to Sal when he identified it.

And by all means continue. I much prefer constructive discussion.

[Judge Pen]

gene ching is shaolin. have you confirmed this with him? or any other shaolin family? don't depend on one guy

Bio: http://www.bgtent.com/CMAQigongSchool/Instructor-info.htm

[bawang]

second technique: taoist immortal bows to buddha

this is an oxymoron that will never, ever, ever, occur in any chinese phrase. what sin the meant to say was probably child prays to buddha.


the performer gary grooms claps his hands and starts rotating and gyrating like a clock.

child prays to buddha is a technique where you clap the ears. its the salute of northern shaolin kung fu.

[bawang]

you should be able to spot beauty gazes at mirror frank. its pretty obvious

[wenshu]

This thread brightens my day.

You Shaolin Do-tards are trying to justify this b.s based on your subjective observation of one form you saw performed in Indonesia twenty years ago.

What about the other 899?

[bawang]

This thread brightens my day.

You Shaolin Do-tards are trying to justify this b.s based on your subjective observation of one form you saw performed in Indonesia twenty years ago.

What about the other 899?

their anguish and despair at the breaking down of their fabric of reality gives me joy in my heart. it makes my penus very tingly, it has not happen in many years

[pazman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTVDD8yLgvE

Might be disappointing to some, but Shaolin Do's Mantis Kata is traditional, authentic, and deadly. Make no doubt about it.

[pazman]

since when did kung fu people call their forms "KATA"? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Since Mantis was all about pointy fingers, that's when.:D

[Crushing Step]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTVDD8yLgvE

Might be disappointing to some, but Shaolin Do's Mantis Kata is traditional, authentic, and deadly. Make no doubt about it.

You're trolling, right? Please gawd be trolling, this is not mantis at all...

[pazman]

then ya'll got played like a game of pool. kung fu thieves

shaolin do is more karate than anything and they don't even know it. what a shame.

Frank, I'm on your side. Perhaps my sarcasm doesn't transmit through the internet.

If I were a karate guy, I'd be kind of insulted by the association.

[pazman]

You're trolling, right? Please gawd be trolling, this is not mantis at all...

Is it really not that obvious?

[Crushing Step]

Is it really not that obvious?

After I read a few more posts, yes haha... Dude I pop in on this terrible thread all the time, but there is no way I can keep up with the whole thing!

[pazman]

http://www.ohiosd.com/forms_detail.asp?form_id=42

Can some Shaolin Do guy be so kind as to explain exactly why your mantis isn't a bunch of made up ****?

[pazman]

http://www.ohiosd.com/forms_detail.asp?form_id=70

Does The claim he learned the Taiji 24 step in Indonesia? That would be an interesting claim.

[Crushing Step]

http://www.ohiosd.com/forms_detail.asp?form_id=42

Can some Shaolin Do guy be so kind as to explain exactly why your mantis isn't a bunch of made up ****?

"Beaks" for f@ck sake! I am waiting and wondering WTF a mantis "beak" is!

[pazman]

whoa. no way can they be serious. the most comprehensive and authentic shaolin curriculum? wtf wtf wtf???????

You doubt them? They have 900 katas. How many do you have?:D

[pazman]

http://chzderp.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/79b95431-6069-4b23-b8c2-96903b0efbf5.jpg

1000 is mine again.

[ShaolinDan]

second technique: taoist immortal bows to buddha

this is an oxymoron that will never, ever, ever, occur in any chinese phrase. what sin the meant to say was probably child prays to buddha.


Oh c'mon, don't tell me you've never read "Journey to the West." :p :D

[Shaolin Wookie]

http://www.ohiosd.com/forms_detail.asp?form_id=42

Can some Shaolin Do guy be so kind as to explain exactly why your mantis isn't a bunch of made up ****?

Check my sig. There's my White Monkey STP. It's from 2009. It's much better now, and I'm much faster with crisper movements (esp in footwork). I also have a Mantis Penetrating Hammer form that is much like others I've seen.

As for SD's form called "Tang Lang Quan"---the only thing I recognize in the form posted above (on the previous page) is hte footwork. It looks like that guy has no idea what he's doing with his hands. TLQ is generic as far as I can tell, and I don't particularly think the form is that useful outside of some basic throws.

I'm pretty sure TLQ was made up. But then, so are all forms, which is why this whole "is your **** made up" thing is quite funny. Your forms were made up, too. And I bet that if I went back in time to find the guy who made up your forms, I'd shoot for the single leg (the front of his jade ring, which isn't engineered for backwards movement) take his ass to the ground, and GnP his ***** ass. I'd have a knife at my hip and ten of my best buds ready to take care of his friends, since I assume they'd all be standing around, just waiting to kick my head in when we hit the ground..

[Shaolin Wookie]

"Beaks" for f@ck sake! I am waiting and wondering WTF a mantis "beak" is!

Same hand position as a crane beak. GM Sin was never known for excellence in translating chinese phrases, but oh well--and his students are even worse at chinese. I'm even worse than most at pronouncing chinese words, too.;) My Chinglish is horrible.

I'm sure you're wondering how a mantis has a beak (they do, if you want to think abstractly about their "teeth"). But a mantis "beak" is just the "beak" formation of your hand when you're doing a mantis form, not something on the face of a mantis (even though, I'm sure you can see, they have a "beak" like formation on the front of their jaws with those creepy little "feelers").

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=212658

[bawang]

I could make up a form right now, chock full of takedowns with some BJJ/SD/Capoeira/silat motions thrown in, and I could own many people with my skills. Afterwards, I could say all the motions are in the form, and all the applications are hidden in the form.

.

as long as you dont call it shaolin thats perfectly fine

[Shaolin Wookie]

as long as you dont call it shaolin thats perfectly fine

Why can't I call it shaolin? It has elements of shaolin in it, after all--whether you take my SD or my Northern Longfist with it.

"Shaolin" is as generic as "karate" these days. WTF isn't shaolin? I found a video the other day offering "shaolin groundfighting." LOL. Seems to me like "shaolin" is the mob. Everything is in its "protection" racket.

[hskwarrior]

Why can't I call it shaolin? It has elements of shaolin in it, after all--whether you take my SD or my Northern Longfist with it.

because neither you nor Sin The learned from a Shaolin student. that double dagger form you did really looked made up and you need MORE MOREMORE practice.


I'm pretty sure TLQ was made up. But then, so are all forms, which is why this whole "is your **** made up" thing is quite funny. Your forms were made up, too. And I bet that if I went back in time to find the guy who made up your forms, I'd shoot for the single leg (the front of his jade ring, which isn't engineered for backwards movement) take his ass to the ground, and GnP his ***** ass.

LMAO. no you wouldn't.

[wenshu]

Why can't I call it shaolin? It has elements of shaolin in it, after all--whether you take my SD or my Northern Longfist with it.

"Shaolin" is as generic as "karate" these days. WTF isn't shaolin? I found a video the other day offering "shaolin groundfighting." LOL. Seems to me like "shaolin" is the mob. Everything is in its "protection" racket.

You guys want to ride the coattails of Shaolin but don't want to make the effort to actually learn anything about Chinese geography, history and traditional culture.

"Oh it was all made up at one point so I can just call it whatever I want."

No. This isn't Austrian School economics; you can't just make it up as you go along.

Kung fu styles are regional. Shaolin has more in common with TaiJi (they are both from Henan) than it does with TangLang(Shandong). Of course they share common features just like all Chinese gong fu does, but to cast Shaolin as an umbrella over every Northern practice just so you can justify calling your *******ized kata/forms practice "Shaolin" is rank intellectual laziness in service of equivocation.

[kwaichang]

I taught Tang Lang for 2 years for SD, I trained in 7 star for 10 years, The Tang Lang Chien form is in my opinion a White Crane form Mantasized , why I do not know as they have a complete Tang Lang System with springy leg , Jade ring and all that goes with it. also 2 man techniques. So dont ask me what it is other than a good aerobic w/o. KC

[bawang]

Why can't I call it shaolin?


because its not shaolin.

[kwaichang]

There is a saying all MA come from Shaolin therefore it is Shaolin. Just not the Shaolin you are accustomed to . KC

[bawang]

There is a saying all MA come from Shaolin therefore it is Shaolin. Just not the Shaolin you are accustomed to . KC

shaolin kung fu practiced at shaolin temple came from shaolin.

[kwaichang]

Its a saying as I said, But you said it better as many were absorbed into the temple thank you for verifying what I was taught as history in SD. KC

[tattooedmonk]

because neither you nor Sin The learned from a Shaolin student. that double dagger form you did really looked made up and you need MORE MOREMORE practice.



LMAO. no you wouldn't. you have shown exactly what I have known all along.....idiot. That double dagger form is the first road of the shaolin dd which anyone who knows northern shaolin would know that it a standard shaolin form. All forms and styles are made up, Especially CLF. Not even real shaolin greengrass monk my @$$.

[tattooedmonk]

knowing that you come from a fraudulent lineage and your neglect of the truth only makes us believe you cannot see past the BS you were taught so you too spread lies and misinformation, that cult brainwashin is a mudda fukka huh?

Blahblahblah same sh!t different day.... What a troll.

[tattooedmonk]

shaolin kung fu practiced at shaolin temple came from shaolin.

Are you really this dense!?

[hskwarrior]

you have shown exactly what I have known all along.....idiot. That double dagger form is the first road of the shaolin dd which anyone who knows northern shaolin would know that it a standard shaolin form. All forms and styles are made up, Especially CLF. Not even real shaolin greengrass monk my @$$.

ROTMFFLMMFAO at Jim Jones aka Tatooedmonk. your UTTER stupidity is priceless. i mean PRICELESS. PRICELESS. I CAN'T DESCRIBE THE JOY I'M FEELING INSIDE. THANK YOU.

http://www.jonco48.com/blog/big_20smile.jpg

[Jimbo]

you have shown exactly what I have known all along.....idiot. That double dagger form is the first road of the shaolin dd which anyone who knows northern shaolin would know that it a standard shaolin form. All forms and styles are made up, Especially CLF. Not even real shaolin greengrass monk my @$$.

One question:
What do you mean by 'especially CLF"?

[hskwarrior]

what do you mean by 'especially clf"?

he or she is acting like that have some secret knowledge that forms were created by someone. Well of course you fakkin idiot. But none of those people, especially in clf lied and claimed to be of a system via learning it from doc fai wong's book or any book.

[sean_stonehart]

you have shown exactly what I have known all along.....idiot. That double dagger form is the first road of the shaolin dd which anyone who knows northern shaolin would know that it a standard shaolin form. All forms and styles are made up, Especially CLF. Not even real shaolin greengrass monk my @$$.

I'm actually pretty familiar with Northern Shaolin. So which school of Northern Shaolin is it the standard in? KYC Buk Siu Lum? Nanjing Kuoshou Curriculum? Songshan?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[bawang]

Its a saying as I said, But you said it better as many were absorbed into the temple thank you for verifying what I was taught as history in SD. KC

many styles were absorbed into shaolin. yours was not.

[Shaolindynasty]

There is a difference between "made up" forms and forms developed through experience with sound principles in mind.

[Jimbo]

Also, what we have today as the various schools/lineages of CLF have evolved over time to become what they are, by people who had an extensive, practical understanding of the art through experience. CLF itself was created from already-proven systems/methods, at a time and place where, if it couldn't hold up, it could not have survived. It has, and very well, thank you. CLF wasn't just a bunch of random stuff that somebody pulled out of their ass.

I personally don't care what SD does one way or the other, but when someone makes BS statements about CLF without any knowledge of it whatsoever, it needs to be called out.

[bawang]

CLF is a relatively new style but follows the cultural cues and frameset of chinese martial arts.
CLF does not separate from chinese martial culture, it is the continuation of it.

shaolin do has zero understanding of chinese culture and is a tool used for exploitation based on a backwards 1960s small town hillbilly mentality.

shaolin do are cultural thieves and robbers.

[hskwarrior]

i personally don't care what sd does one way or the other, but when someone makes bs statements about clf without any knowledge of it whatsoever, it needs to be called out.

pls, be careful not to fill in the gaps for them. We all know what we know because we actually study real gung fu. Some students of this sd school are way to clueless to get a clue even it the clue was tattooed on their foreheads.

I love the ignorance shown by some sd students on the forum


shaolin do has zero understanding of chinese culture and is a tool used for exploitation based on a backwards 1960s small town hillbilly mentality.

shaolin do are cultural thieves and robbers.

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY.

[kwaichang]

I have been told to understand a culture one must 1st speak the language , so much is lost in translation. so how many of you read and write Chinese Language fluently. Very few I would say. So you that speak so strongly about culture and tradition only know a small amount of history as you were taught by your teacher.KC

[bawang]

I have been told to understand a culture one must 1st speak the language , so much is lost in translation. so how many of you read and write Chinese Language fluently. Very few I would say. So you that speak so strongly about culture and tradition only know a small amount of history as you were taught by your teacher.KC

we understand enough not to wear a fukin karate gi.

[kwaichang]

Gotcha KC:)

[hskwarrior]

so you that speak so strongly about culture and tradition only know a small amount of history as you were taught by your teacher.kc

some of us grew up in very traditional chinese gung fu schools typically found in chinatown where we are learning about the actual culture of the chinese people as well. Its an honor to have someone welcome you into their culture and show you. Most of the time they can care less because you could care less.

Missing out on a huge part of kung fu with you are without the culture behind it.

[Kellen Bassette]

"Shaolin" is as generic as "karate" these days. WTF isn't shaolin? I found a video the other day offering "shaolin groundfighting." LOL. Seems to me like "shaolin" is the mob. Everything is in its "protection" racket.

Ground fighting is a part of Shaolin. Check out "Chi Na Fa, The Skill of Catch and Hold" ~1936. A police chi na manual...take the standing chi na out and the book looks like a BJJ basic ground fighting locks manual.

What is now BJJ was Mitsuyo Maeda's version of Judo. Trace back to JJJ then to China. Shuai Jiao and Chi na are the original material for BJJ, Rickson Gracie even said as much.

The Chinese did develop ground fighting, just not to the extant that the Gracies took it to, as it was deemed suicide to stay on the ground in battle. The techniques were also learned and developed by the Japanese, again, not to the extant that the Brazilians took it, as they too arrived at the same conclusion.

Basic chokes and locks from various guards and mounts were utilized by Shaolin based arts long before Judo ever came to Brazil. The Chinese weren't ground specialist, but it is still a valid part of the art that many instructors were never taught, or simply neglect today.




"Oh it was all made up at one point so I can just call it whatever I want."

No. This isn't Austrian School economics; you can't just make it up as you go along.



What's wrong with Austrian economics?

[kwaichang]

As I have said in the past I trained in "traditional" CMA Tang Lang and Hung Jia, for 10 years and 3 more after that long distance I was taught history ethics and Language as well as writing. I cont to study to this day. and it was very hard core and aplicable. This was way before safeT chop etc. KC:D

[hskwarrior]

as i have said in the past i trained in "traditional" cma tang lang and hung jia, for 10 years and 3 more after that long distance i was taught history ethics and language as well as writing. I cont to study to this day. And it was very hard core and aplicable. This was way before safet chop etc. Kc

the more you talk the more i'm convinced you're jake the fake mace.

[wenshu]

Ground fighting is a part of Shaolin. Check out "Chi Na Fa, The Skill of Cmatch and Hold" ~1936. A police chi na manual...take the standing chi na out and the book looks like a BJJ basic ground fighting locks manual.

What is now BJJ was Mitsuyo Maeda's version of Judo. Trace back to JJJ then to China. Shuai Jiao and Chi na are the original material for BJJ, Rickson Gracie even said as much.

The Chinese did develop ground fighting, just not to the extant that the Gracies took it to, as it was deemed suicide to stay on the ground in battle. The techniques were also learned and developed by the Japanese, again, not to the extant that the Brazilians took it, as they too arrived at the same conclusion.

Basic chokes and locks from various guards and mounts were utilized by Shaolin based arts long before Judo ever came to Brazil. The Chinese weren't ground specialist, but it is still a valid part of the art that many instructors were never taught, or simply neglect today.

I wonder why no one ever mentions Japanese palace etiquette as an impetus for the development of ground fighting techniques.



What's wrong with Austrian economics?

Aside from its theories being pulled out of thin air and not based on any data or scientific rigour of any kind, nothing.

[Judge Pen]

Wenshu, I'm starting with one form. Once I understand it's origins, we can talk about the other 899. (and nice use of the word "tard" way to stay classy).

Most of this crap would have been avoided if Sin The had just called his art "Ming family Kung Tao". But sadly, he called it Shaolin Do. I understand why people are upset about that. Given the lies that have been told, I can't believe any of the history or lineage that cannot be verified independantly.

[wenshu]

i have been told to understand a culture one must 1st speak the language , so much is lost in translation. So how many of you read and write chinese language fluently. Very few i would say. So you that speak so strongly about culture and tradition only know a small amount of history as you were taught by your teacher.kc

叫你生孩子没屁股眼。

[Judge Pen]

the more you talk the more i'm convinced you're jake the fake mace.

He's not Frank.

[Judge Pen]

叫你生孩子没屁股眼。

Nice! You know how to use Google!

Enjoy the rest of your day, I'm out until tomorrow.

[Lucas]

arent you chinese wenshu?

[wenshu]

Nice! You know how to use Google!

Enjoy the rest of your day, I'm out until tomorrow.

I've been studying Chinese for over three years, my spoken Chinese is horrible but I know close to 4000 characters (I study both traditional and simplified so a good portion are actually duplicates).

So while I did get that insult from the web, I actually can read and write Chinese pretty well.

I understand why you're angry, I would be too if I had wasted decades of my life being swindled by a loser like Sin The.

[wenshu]

arent you chinese wenshu?
I'm one of the rarely seen blonde chinese.
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/7/2011/07/anders_behring_bre_1953790b.jpg

[kwaichang]

I am not angry , I am happy. I enjoyed SD while I did it and still enjoy the forms I practice. I love Kung Fu . and if what I learned from SD alows my already awesome skills to improve then that is fine. What ever i use to kick ur butt is good right. KC:D

[bawang]

I love Kung Fu .
u should learn it sometime

[Lucas]

I'm one of the rarely seen blonde chinese.
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/7/2011/07/anders_behring_bre_1953790b.jpg

thats what i was thinking!!!

[kwaichang]

I did man look at my post about 5 back sissy. KC:eek::p

[pazman]

Actually, there are plenty of people that post in the Shaolin Forum that have spent significant time in China and can speak the language. Their posts are a treasure trove of authentic information on real, traditional gongfu. Bawang's posts, even when he is trolling, are incredibly insightful. "Shaolin Do" rolls up and wants a piece of the action, calling themselves authentic when they are not, appropriating other's traditions...well, it's really ****ing disrespectful. Long gone are the days when people thought that this stuff was hidden and inaccessible.

There is no doubt that The learned "something in Indonesia," but to call himself grandmaster, call his art Shaolin, and put himself out as some authority on martial arts is bull****.

[kwaichang]

What do any of you know of respect u dont exhibit any you are mostly dis respectful. What ever he calls his M/A lets say this he has been teaching and training since before 1964 and does teach alot of varied forms whether he is a Grand master aside he has put more time and effort or Kung Fu into SD than most of you if not all. So i think after 50 years he may know a little about M/A whether you want to admit it or not. Just Sayin. KC:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

we understand enough not to wear a fukin karate gi.
And because the cloths matter, right?!:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

Long gone are the days when people thought that this stuff was hidden and inaccessible.

What sin the did was one of the primary reasons gung fu was considered to be secret. they're going to be the reason why tcma goes back to being secretive. they didn't want the gwai lo's stealing their stuff then run off on their own and cut their ties while trying to be the king of the martial world. which is the very same reason why i limit my video's now to just very basic stuff in addition to chopping up our forms and rearranging them in an unfamiliar order.

we hate thieves.

[Kellen Bassette]

I wonder why no one ever mentions Japanese palace etiquette as an impetus for the development of ground fighting techniques.


Good point.



Aside from its theories being pulled out of thin air and not based on any data or scientific rigour of any kind, nothing.

And what would you consider a proven and worthwhile school of thought?

[bawang]

And because the cloths matter, right?!:rolleyes:

clothes obviously matter to you shaolin doers or you would not insist on wear the karate gi.

but you do it for evil twisted reason.

[Lucas]

so does the name shaolin-do mean 'the way of the forest of mount shaoshi? or is the word shaolin not supposed to be a direct translation for the style? i'm kind of curious now, if its supposed to be meaning like the way of the shaolin in terms of shaolin martial arts, how much beyond forms are you following in the way of shaolin traditions? and how many of the forms are just like the shaolin material?

I'm still curious about this because no one ever responded.

[bawang]

I'm still curious about this because no one ever responded.

shaolin do doesnt follow shaolin. they follow sin the.

[Judge Pen]

Actually, there are plenty of people that post in the Shaolin Forum that have spent significant time in China and can speak the language. Their posts are a treasure trove of authentic information on real, traditional gongfu. Bawang's posts, even when he is trolling, are incredibly insightful. "Shaolin Do" rolls up and wants a piece of the action, calling themselves authentic when they are not, appropriating other's traditions...well, it's really ****ing disrespectful. Long gone are the days when people thought that this stuff was hidden and inaccessible.

There is no doubt that The learned "something in Indonesia," but to call himself grandmaster, call his art Shaolin, and put himself out as some authority on martial arts is bull****.

I agree 100%. Now my goal is to figure out, as much as possible, what that "something" actually is.

[Judge Pen]

clothes obviously matter to you shaolin doers or you would not insist on wear the karate gi.

but you do it for evil twisted reason.

Not all school wear gis. The clothes don't matter.

[Judge Pen]

I'm still curious about this because no one ever responded.

I don't know. Sin The was apparently making stuff up as he went (including the name).

[bawang]

I don't know. Sin The was apparently making stuff up as he went (including the name).

then why are you defending him if you ackowledge this

[Lucas]

I don't know. Sin The was apparently making stuff up as he went (including the name).

oh gotcha. i always wondered where the shaolin part came from.

[kwaichang]

We have said this before that is a name he gave to the art . when he started teaching. and later. KC:D

[hskwarrior]

any kung fu school wearing a karate gi, does karate bows, and attempts to perform kung fu with complete karate flavor.....................is SHAOLIN DO.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/76204_10151149326772732_422794269_n.jpg

[pazman]

I agree 100%. Now my goal is to figure out, as much as possible, what that "something" actually is.

It's called buying a phrase book and a plane ticket. That's what I did, as have others on this forum. Best decision of my life.

Going to another country and learning some martial arts is not some exotic, mysterious thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh gotcha. i always wondered where the shaolin part came from.

Many japanese systems use the japanese versions of shaolin:
Shorinji-kempo
Shorinji-ryu
Shorin-ryu
To name just a few.
No need real need to make it "shaolin karate", which is just mixing two "languages" for no reason.
Shorinji Karate is the correct way.

[pazman]

Many japanese systems use the japanese versions of shaolin:
Shorinji-kempo
Shorinji-ryu
Shorin-ryu
To name just a few.
No need real need to make it "shaolin karate", which is just mixing two "languages" for no reason.
Shorinji Karate is the correct way.

And just to emphasize, those schools were named to give respect to Shaolin, not imply a lineage and assert authority.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And just to emphasize, those schools were named to give respect to Shaolin, not imply a lineage and assert authority.

On the average yes, though there is the "lineage issues'" of the Shorinji-kempo under Doshin so.
Shorinji-ryu Karate-do ( various branches by the way)claims a shaolin lineage but only in the most GENERAL of ways.

[Kellen Bassette]

Many japanese systems use the japanese versions of shaolin:
Shorinji-kempo
Shorinji-ryu
Shorin-ryu
To name just a few.
No need real need to make it "shaolin karate", which is just mixing two "languages" for no reason.
Shorinji Karate is the correct way.

I was going to mention Shorin Ryu to see what people thought of "Shaolin Style" Karate, but you beat me to it...

[Crushing Step]

I also have a Mantis Penetrating Hammer form that is much like others I've seen.


Likely Cha Chuy / Chop Choy / Tsaab Tsui = Piercing/Stabbing Hammer or more often translated as Piercing/Stabbing Fist

I'd be interested in seeind the SD version.

[Kellen Bassette]

On the average yes, though there is the "lineage issues'" of the Shorinji-kempo under Doshin so.
Shorinji-ryu Karate-do ( various branches by the way)claims a shaolin lineage but only in the most GENERAL of ways.

A lot of Okinawan Karate styles claims Shaolin lineage. Karate came from Te, Te came from Kung Fu, (generally of Fujian origin,) most of those Kung Fu styles claim the Shaolin Temple in their history. The "everything comes from Shaolin" idea....

[tattooedmonk]

hope you like it

[tattooedmonk]

heres another one

[hskwarrior]

dude, your ignorance knows no bounds. LOL.

you're proud that your beloved founder dooped you fools by teaching our form that he got from our book.

regardless of that, you fools don't and can't even do it right even if you were taught it.

be proud idiot. be proud. hahahahahahahahaha how embarrassing for you guys. hahahahahahahahaha

[Lucas]

I think however the main difference, if we look at shorin ryu aka 'shaolin style' is that it is a fusion of okinawan martial arts, already known in depth and used, with that of shaolin martial arts. You have a venerated warrior, known across the land, combining his current martial knowledge with new things he learned. The name given was to honor the roots of the chinese martial arts that influenced the change, as well as to set this style apart from other okinawan styles of the day.

you cant really compare shaolin do and shorin ryu as they have very different histories.

[Judge Pen]

then why are you defending him if you ackowledge this

Ive stopped defending him. I'm just trying to sort through what is legitimate from all the BS that has been told. If you have been paying attention you would have known this already. All I'm trying to do is put what I've learned (which I can apply at a high level) in perspective with the knowledge I've gained through the years that have opened my eyes to the BS that was passed on as truth along the way. I have an open mind and I'm trying to be objective. I think this forum would be a better place if everyone acted the same way.

[Judge Pen]

Likely Cha Chuy / Chop Choy / Tsaab Tsui = Piercing/Stabbing Hammer or more often translated as Piercing/Stabbing Fist

I'd be interested in seeind the SD version.

The two mantis forms "unique" to SD are nothing like the mantis forms that SD does that are found elsewhere. Makes you wonder why they are so different? Are these two made up and the others stolen? Perhaps.

I don't have a problem with a style calling somethign mantis but it being different than the main stream mantis systems. I get the feeling that material originating in Indonesia that are influenced or inspired by CMA did this often which is fine as long as they call it what it is and don't try to claim it's some secret shaolin mantis form.

[pazman]

A lot of Okinawan Karate styles claims Shaolin lineage. Karate came from Te, Te came from Kung Fu, (generally of Fujian origin,) most of those Kung Fu styles claim the Shaolin Temple in their history. The "everything comes from Shaolin" idea....

Sorry, when I say lineage I have a very precise meaning...I mean that you can trace a line of transmission, person by person, back to some origin. There are more than a few traditional Japanese martial arts schools that can trace an historically verifiable lineage going back hundreds of years. It's very difficult to say the same for most styles of Karate. For example, Kanbun Uechi did study authentic gongfu in China, but the exact school and style are lost to history.

I doubt very much you'll find any karate school that can claim a lineage back to the Shaolin Temple, and any Karate teacher will say the same.

Doshin So is another topic altogether, but any Shorinji Kenpo person I've ever talked to were very clear in stating that the naming is out of respect, not to imply that their method comes from Shaolin Gongfu.

[Empty_Cup]

... I'm just trying to sort through what is legitimate from all the BS that has been told.

Word...from both sides of the aisle.

[tattooedmonk]

I think however the main difference, if we look at shorin ryu aka 'shaolin style' is that it is a fusion of okinawan martial arts, already known in depth and used, with that of shaolin martial arts. You have a venerated warrior, known across the land, combining his current martial knowledge with new things he learned. The name given was to honor the roots of the chinese martial arts that influenced the change, as well as to set this style apart from other okinawan styles of the day.

you cant really compare shaolin do and shorin ryu as they have very different histories.

wow, ignorance at its finest.:rolleyes:

[Golden Arms]

I have to thank you all for this thread. This is EXACTLY why there is so little information made public on inner door Pak Mei/White Brow. People grab any little bit they can from any video, book, you name it and then try to pass it off as real. If you really do the system you can see it at first glance.

The next time someone states that putting things up on youtube is the answer to everything I am going to point them to this thread as proof of why many of us like to keep our hard earned training to ourselves and our close students.

[hskwarrior]

wow, ignorance at its finest.

no one outshines you at being ignorant

[hskwarrior]

The next time someone states that putting things up on youtube is the answer to everything I am going to point them to this thread as proof of why many of us like to keep our hard earned training to ourselves and our close students.

exactly!!!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

dude, your ignorance knows no bounds. LOL.

you're proud that your beloved founder dooped you fools by teaching our form that he got from our book.

regardless of that, you fools don't and can't even do it right even if you were taught it.

be proud idiot. be proud. hahahahahahahahaha how embarrassing for you guys. hahahahahahahahahanope , just fodder for you thread...

[tattooedmonk]

I have to thank you all for this thread. This is EXACTLY why there is so little information made public on inner door Pak Mei/White Brow. People grab any little bit they can from any video, book, you name it and then try to pass it off as real. If you really do the system you can see it at first glance.

The next time someone states that putting things up on youtube is the answer to everything I am going to point them to this thread as proof of why many of us like to keep our hard earned training to ourselves and our close students.this thread shows and proves nothing other than what the person that created it wants you to believe. :D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

no one outshines you at being ignorantyours has almost made you blissful these days:p:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

nope , just fodder for you thread...

i'm not luke n you're not my fodder.

its amazing how proud you are to be a part of some BULLSH1T! bumpkin fer lyfe huh?

[Judge Pen]

It's called buying a phrase book and a plane ticket. That's what I did, as have others on this forum. Best decision of my life.

Going to another country and learning some martial arts is not some exotic, mysterious thing.

I'd love to go back in time and do that, but at 37 and a partner at a lawfirm with a wife, two small children, my in-laws and 2 dogs all dependant upon me, that's not a luxury I have. Good for you for doing it.

[Kellen Bassette]

Sorry, when I say lineage I have a very precise meaning...I mean that you can trace a line of transmission, person by person, back to some origin. There are more than a few traditional Japanese martial arts schools that can trace an historically verifiable lineage going back hundreds of years. It's very difficult to say the same for most styles of Karate. For example, Kanbun Uechi did study authentic gongfu in China, but the exact school and style are lost to history.

I doubt very much you'll find any karate school that can claim a lineage back to the Shaolin Temple, and any Karate teacher will say the same.

Doshin So is another topic altogether, but any Shorinji Kenpo person I've ever talked to were very clear in stating that the naming is out of respect, not to imply that their method comes from Shaolin Gongfu.

That's kind of what I was getting at, I just wasn't clear. Probably the majority of Okinawan Karate can't trace it's lineage ****her back than their original Chinese teacher, I'd be surprised at any that could prove it past the Chinese Sigung.

For instance, Go Ju Ryu...Chojun Miyagi, student of Kanryo Higaonna, student of Ryu Ryu Ko (chinese), student of Shaolin Temple Arts....

Someone may have more information, if that's inaccurate I apologize, but that's kind of the general Karate family tree one is likely to see in traditional Okinawan Karate.

[Leto]

There are two different discussions/arguments going on here, for some reason the "haters" aren't getting the position most of us are in, though we have stated it over and over again. Most of us here are not defending Sin The. We are apalled by how he has lied and recognize that a lot of the material he has taught was not learned or taught by him properly, and some of it he invented.
However, we learned the material from his system, that's a fact. We have this material now, wherever it came from, what to do with it? Personally, I want to find out where it came from and how it would be performed as authentic Chinese martial arts, or as "authentic" kun tao, or whatever it really is. Some of the forms are obvious, like the five animal form, tiger crane, four roads of hua, the northern praying mantis material and the internal material. We can find out where those forms are from and find people teaching those styles and learn how they would really be performed, they are clearly Chinese forms.
But there is a whole bunch of other material which is not obvious exactly where it came from. Wanting to find out the origins of the material I learned and to learn a more effective way to perform/use it is not defending shaolin do or Sin The. In fact, it is just the opposite, it means I do not trust anything I was taught by the students/devotees of Sin The. I just feel there is some value in the material, despite the method with which it was passed to me, and will make it work. If it is all "made up sh**", then I will make it the best "made up sh**" I possibly can. For the record, I don't believe it was all made up by Sin The, I think he lied in that deposition in order to justify his copyright claim. I think he made up a few forms in order to flesh out an originally sparse curriculum (what he learned as a teenager before coming to the US), before he started teaching material from books. So far, no judge has felt his copyright claim is enforceable.

On the topic of Praying Mantis, I never liked the "tang lang chien" form that everyone always criticizes (from the gif). It never looked or felt right to me, and I never bothered practicing it after I learned it. After learning Zhai Yao, and a Bi Men Tang Lang two person set (which I think is a version of Beng Bu), I knew it wasn't really mantis, it just didn't fit. This makes me think it likely was invented by Sin The, again trying to flesh out his material in the early days. I think he knew the Lohan Chien form, which might have been made up by one of his teachers as an introduction to PM, and tried to extrapolate from that based on his misperception of what mantis is (poking with the fingers and lots of kicks). He never had time to learn the actual mantis system of his school, but later he found instruction books on various PM forms and taught them as special seminars. It's even possible that he really had notes from his teacher with lyrics for some forms, but I doubt he learned many if any of them (especially since he mistranslated some of the names. He should have known, for example, that it was "Zhai Yao" and not "Zhai Shua". Yao 要 and Shua 耍 characters look very similar, and it was a scribbly hand written document so easy to make the mistake. But this does imply he got it from a hand written document, not a printed book. Or that he isn't terribly literate in Chinese characters. Or that he hand copied the text from a book, and then later couldn't read his own handwriting.)

[tattooedmonk]

how about this instead?

[hskwarrior]

AND YOU BELIEVE THIS IS IN SPECIFIC REFERENCE TO MY LINEAGES FORM AND NO ONE ELSES HUH? :rolleyes:

[Lucas]

wow, ignorance at its finest.:rolleyes:

do tell....mr. classy.... :rolleyes:

choshin was an accomplished martial artist, who studied directly under anko itosu. he developed shorin ryu in the later part of his career, based of his in depth knowledge of okinawan martial arts, and combined that knowledge with chinese martial arts, and payed honor and homage to shaolin due to such. noted as one of the last pre war karate masters.

sin the lied to everyone, learned from books, passed on forms he didnt even fully understand, can be seen perfoming horribly and even forgetting his material. lied in court under oath, lied to everyone constantly, uses the name shaolin just because he made his stuff up (as stated by a shaolin do person recently in this thread)

no comparison.

[tattooedmonk]

never said anything ... thats your problem , you assume everything based on your own perception and very little fact... or skill to back it up.:D:cool:

[Leto]

That's kind of what I was getting at, I just wasn't clear. Probably the majority of Okinawan Karate can't trace it's lineage ****her back than their original Chinese teacher, I'd be surprised at any that could prove it past the Chinese Sigung.

In fact, most don't even have any firm information on the Chinese teachers. We have Okinawan pronounciations or nicknames for the Chinese teachers, and sort of anecdotal stories about who they were and what they taught. But nothing firm in the way of an actual lineage document or actual characters for their names. Some researchers believe they have found links to some historical Chinese teachers, mainly on the naha te/goju ryu side. As far as shorin ryu goes, we've got "kusanku", "chinto", "wanshu", "annan", etc...the identity of any of those people, if they existed, is uncertain. I am sure Chinese teachers really existed, we just don't know who they really were or what they taught. However, it is clear to me that shorin ryu has links to northern shaolin, as well as southern styles. Most likely a mix of skills taught by various Chinese teachers (some of whom were northern shaolin, some southern) over the years combined with the Okinawan's practical experience and indigenous Te.

[hskwarrior]

Where is that devastating evidence you claimed you were in possession of in regards to the lau bun family 5 animal form. So where the fak is it?
Bullsh1tter. Mr big lies. Mr. Bluffinator.

where is that devastating evidence you claimed you were in possession of in regards to the lau bun family 5 animal form.

[tattooedmonk]

do tell....mr. classy.... :rolleyes:

choshin was an accomplished martial artist, who studied directly under anko itosu. he developed shorin ryu in the later part of his career, based of his in depth knowledge of okinawan martial arts, and combined that knowledge with chinese martial arts, and payed honor and homage to shaolin due to such. noted as one of the last pre war karate masters.

sin the lied to everyone, learned from books, passed on forms he didnt even fully understand, can be seen perfoming horribly and even forgetting his material. lied in court under oath, lied to everyone constantly, uses the name shaolin just because he made his stuff up (as stated by a shaolin do person recently in this thread)

no comparison.thats not what I said , but go ahead and roll with it. I / we are not discussing sin the right now , doesnt matter what anyone says around here, everyone has stated their position, ad nauseum. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

never said anything ... thats your problem , you assume everything based on your own perception and very little fact... or skill to back it up.

rotflmao. what you wanna do? fight me? hahahahahaha

i'd trick you into coming and end up putting your face on a milk carton LOL

[tattooedmonk]

when you are like me, callling and emailing world masters of CMA, you have to be patient for their responses... you know they have a life and other things they do.:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

when you are like me, callling and emailing world masters of CMA, you have to be patient for their responses... you know they have a life and other things they do.

tell em i said hello. would love to see them next time around. thanks.

mr BLUFFINATOR........jim jones......who? jim jonesssssssss!

[tattooedmonk]

rotflmao. what you wanna do? fight me? hahahahahaha

i'd trick you into coming and end up putting your face on a milk carton LOLbe real goof ball, I have better things to do with my time than come up there to school you in the arts.

but if you wanna pay me a visit I am always ready.....

I read your other posts , you talk a big game on the net....

but your really a big fat p-u-s-s-y.

who obviously cant be open minded or patient or anything reasonable.

its pathetic.

[Kellen Bassette]

There are two different discussions/arguments going on here, for some reason the "haters" aren't getting the position most of us are in, though we have stated it over and over again. Most of us here are not defending Sin The. We are apalled by how he has lied and recognize that a lot of the material he has taught was not learned or taught by him properly, and some of it he invented.
However, we learned the material from his system, that's a fact. We have this material now, wherever it came from, what to do with it? Personally, I want to find out where it came from and how it would be performed as authentic Chinese martial arts, or as "authentic" kun tao, or whatever it really is. Some of the forms are obvious, like the five animal form, tiger crane, four roads of hua, the northern praying mantis material and the internal material. We can find out where those forms are from and find people teaching those styles and learn how they would really be performed, they are clearly Chinese forms.
But there is a whole bunch of other material which is not obvious exactly where it came from. Wanting to find out the origins of the material I learned and to learn a more effective way to perform/use it is not defending shaolin do or Sin The. In fact, it is just the opposite, it means I do not trust anything I was taught by the students/devotees of Sin The. I just feel there is some value in the material, despite the method with which it was passed to me, and will make it work. If it is all "made up sh**", then I will make it the best "made up sh**" I possibly can. For the record, I don't believe it was all made up by Sin The, I think he lied in that deposition in order to justify his copyright claim. I think he made up a few forms in order to flesh out an originally sparse curriculum (what he learned as a teenager before coming to the US), before he started teaching material from books. So far, no judge has felt his copyright claim is enforceable.

On the topic of Praying Mantis, I never liked the "tang lang chien" form that everyone always criticizes (from the gif). It never looked or felt right to me, and I never bothered practicing it after I learned it. After learning Zhai Yao, and a Bi Men Tang Lang two person set (which I think is a version of Beng Bu), I knew it wasn't really mantis, it just didn't fit. This makes me think it likely was invented by Sin The, again trying to flesh out his material in the early days. I think he knew the Lohan Chien form, which might have been made up by one of his teachers as an introduction to PM, and tried to extrapolate from that based on his misperception of what mantis is (poking with the fingers and lots of kicks). He never had time to learn the actual mantis system of his school, but later he found instruction books on various PM forms and taught them as special seminars. It's even possible that he really had notes from his teacher with lyrics for some forms, but I doubt he learned many if any of them (especially since he mistranslated some of the names. He should have known, for example, that it was "Zhai Yao" and not "Zhai Shua". Yao 要 and Shua 耍 characters look very similar, and it was a scribbly hand written document so easy to make the mistake. But this does imply he got it from a hand written document, not a printed book. Or that he isn't terribly literate in Chinese characters. Or that he hand copied the text from a book, and then later couldn't read his own handwriting.)

I think you got the right idea. One person I trained with, a phenomenal M.A., fighter and technician...taught me several forms, some he came by honestly...some he took from books and videos. A big difference was he was honest about learning something from a video and didn't see a problem with it since he was a very competent M.A.; who had plenty of legitimate training under various instructors.

So what would you do in that situation if your a teacher?

Teach only the stuff that was handed down under a real lineage, assume you can teach it all because you have the understanding and ability to do so, try to find teachers from the other styles and get them to work on those forms/training methods with you? (The latter could be a very difficult task.)

So SD aside, what about the Shaolin, CLF, Hung Gar guys...ect...I'm sure plenty of you or your shifus/sifus own a book or a video. Would you teach something from this material? Would you give a disclaimer? Would you only teach it if it was from your system? If you've trained 20 years do you feel like there's no problem learning a form this way? Where are the lines? Do you feel guilty about it?

I got no dog in this fight, but I'm curious to your answers...if you can take a quick break from making Sin The famous....:)

[tattooedmonk]

tell em i said hello. would love to see them next time around. thanks.

mr BLUFFINATOR........jim jones......who? jim jonesssssssss! your CLF shaolin five animal form comes from a book.:D:p no lyrics or ways to define the different movements?? oh yeah all super secret kung fu sh!t...haahahahah

[Syn7]

I have to thank you all for this thread. This is EXACTLY why there is so little information made public on inner door Pak Mei/White Brow. People grab any little bit they can from any video, book, you name it and then try to pass it off as real. If you really do the system you can see it at first glance.

The next time someone states that putting things up on youtube is the answer to everything I am going to point them to this thread as proof of why many of us like to keep our hard earned training to ourselves and our close students.

Yeah, but in the interest of full disclosure, Bak Mei has it's own wishy washy shaolin history. We don't even know if he was a real person. For me, I go back to CLC then stop right there. I respect CLC and what he accomplished and that is more than enough for me. The man was a force of nature. And most importantly, it's easy to confirm many of the details.

[hskwarrior]

be real goof ball, I have better things to do with my time than come up there to school you in the arts.

but if you wanna pay me a visit I am always ready.....

I read your other posts , you talk a big game on the net....

but your really a big fat p-u-s-s-y.

who obviously cant be open minded or patient or anything reasonable.

its pathetic.

thats right, i'm a big fat sloppy fat phuk with no speed or power. but watch out, my sow choy has a double whammy to it. first my arm strikes you then you get hit a second time with my blubber. and i hope it would be one of those weeks i never took a shower and hit you with all my stinky blubber sweat. all in your jaws.

i bet it felt good to the the word p-u-s-s-y hope your moms doesn't get too upset her little jim jones is turning to the dark side. LMAO BUSTA


your CLF shaolin five animal form comes from a book. no lyrics or ways to define the different movements?? oh yeah all super secret kung fu sh!t...haahahahah

weeeeaaaaak. lame. this is some wanksta sh1t. from king wanksta. a straight busta. the only fame you'd get is being on that milk carton.

[Judge Pen]

There are two different discussions/arguments going on here, for some reason the "haters" aren't getting the position most of us are in, though we have stated it over and over again. Most of us here are not defending Sin The. We are apalled by how he has lied and recognize that a lot of the material he has taught was not learned or taught by him properly, and some of it he invented.
However, we learned the material from his system, that's a fact. We have this material now, wherever it came from, what to do with it? Personally, I want to find out where it came from and how it would be performed as authentic Chinese martial arts, or as "authentic" kun tao, or whatever it really is. Some of the forms are obvious, like the five animal form, tiger crane, four roads of hua, the northern praying mantis material and the internal material. We can find out where those forms are from and find people teaching those styles and learn how they would really be performed, they are clearly Chinese forms.
But there is a whole bunch of other material which is not obvious exactly where it came from. Wanting to find out the origins of the material I learned and to learn a more effective way to perform/use it is not defending shaolin do or Sin The. In fact, it is just the opposite, it means I do not trust anything I was taught by the students/devotees of Sin The. I just feel there is some value in the material, despite the method with which it was passed to me, and will make it work. If it is all "made up sh**", then I will make it the best "made up sh**" I possibly can. For the record, I don't believe it was all made up by Sin The, I think he lied in that deposition in order to justify his copyright claim. I think he made up a few forms in order to flesh out an originally sparse curriculum (what he learned as a teenager before coming to the US), before he started teaching material from books. So far, no judge has felt his copyright claim is enforceable.

On the topic of Praying Mantis, I never liked the "tang lang chien" form that everyone always criticizes (from the gif). It never looked or felt right to me, and I never bothered practicing it after I learned it. After learning Zhai Yao, and a Bi Men Tang Lang two person set (which I think is a version of Beng Bu), I knew it wasn't really mantis, it just didn't fit. This makes me think it likely was invented by Sin The, again trying to flesh out his material in the early days. I think he knew the Lohan Chien form, which might have been made up by one of his teachers as an introduction to PM, and tried to extrapolate from that based on his misperception of what mantis is (poking with the fingers and lots of kicks). He never had time to learn the actual mantis system of his school, but later he found instruction books on various PM forms and taught them as special seminars. It's even possible that he really had notes from his teacher with lyrics for some forms, but I doubt he learned many if any of them (especially since he mistranslated some of the names. He should have known, for example, that it was "Zhai Yao" and not "Zhai Shua". Yao 要 and Shua 耍 characters look very similar, and it was a scribbly hand written document so easy to make the mistake. But this does imply he got it from a hand written document, not a printed book. Or that he isn't terribly literate in Chinese characters. Or that he hand copied the text from a book, and then later couldn't read his own handwriting.)

Very well said. If you ever find yourself in Tennessee, let me know. I will buy you a drink just for this post.

[tattooedmonk]

some more fun....

[hskwarrior]

So SD aside, what about the Shaolin, CLF, Hung Gar guys...ect...I'm sure plenty of you or your shifus/sifus own a book or a video. Would you teach something from this material? Would you give a disclaimer? Would you only teach it if it was from your system?

me, i've learned from video's of material from our system (direct lineage). i've been doing the system long enough to know how the system operates. i've even created my own form (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhBrZvLdPvc) and put it on youtube and am very open about my creating it. if i pick up something from a trusted video source and teach it to my students they would know i did so.

but because i know books don't demonstrate a form properly, it is left up to the reader and his or her own comprehension of martial arts to figure it out. but if you have not studied that system before you won't know the proper energies or execution without proper teaching.

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm actually impressed with what Jim Jones pulled off...when you step back and look at it, Cult leaders can be pretty impressive individuals...

[hskwarrior]

I'm actually impressed with what Jim Jones pulled off...when you step back and look at it, Cult leaders can be pretty impressive individuals...

:confused::confused::confused: i'm curious. what is it exactly that you find impressive about him? this should be interesting, so i'm looking forward to what you have to say here.

[Lucas]

thats not what I said , but go ahead and roll with it. I / we are not discussing sin the right now , doesnt matter what anyone says around here, everyone has stated their position, ad nauseum. :rolleyes:

well since i was responding directly to the few posts before me that brought shorin ryu into the discussion to compare, and i stated you cant really compare shorin ryu to shaolin do as they are very different in several ways. then you called me ignorant out of the blue. then i backed my statement up with history. i wasnt even talking to you about anything.

[Kellen Bassette]

me, i've learned from video's of material from our system (direct lineage). i've been doing the system long enough to know how the system operates. i've even created my own form (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhBrZvLdPvc) and put it on youtube and am very open about my creating it. if i pick up something from a trusted video source and teach it to my students they would know i did so.

but because i know books don't demonstrate a form properly, it is left up to the reader and his or her own comprehension of martial arts to figure it out. but if you have not studied that system before you won't know the proper energies or execution without proper teaching.

It seems to me it's nearly impossible to learn a form properly from a book, but they can be useful for seeing how a pose should look at the end of a move...makes me wonder if back in the day some guy in China learned a form from the poems on a scroll then taught it....how far off was he and are some of us doing his version today? We may never know...

[tattooedmonk]

I think you got the right idea. One person I trained with, a phenomenal M.A., fighter and technician...taught me several forms, some he came by honestly...some he took from books and videos. A big difference was he was honest about learning something from a video and didn't see a problem with it since he was a very competent M.A.; who had plenty of legitimate training under various instructors.

So what would you do in that situation if your a teacher?

Teach only the stuff that was handed down under a real lineage, assume you can teach it all because you have the understanding and ability to do so, try to find teachers from the other styles and get them to work on those forms/training methods with you? (The latter could be a very difficult task.)

So SD aside, what about the Shaolin, CLF, Hung Gar guys...ect...I'm sure plenty of you or your shifus/sifus own a book or a video. Would you teach something from this material? Would you give a disclaimer? Would you only teach it if it was from your system? If you've trained 20 years do you feel like there's no problem learning a form this way? Where are the lines? Do you feel guilty about it?

I got no dog in this fight, but I'm curious to your answers...if you can take a quick break from making Sin The famous....:)

if you have experience and backgroud you can do this , but it has to be honest .

most people are pretty impressed if you are well read and can learn from books.

anyone can add and take away from their own system. we all have created our own systems here, because no one does it exactly the way they we taught and has added things and taken things away for various reason.

we alll have that ability and right.

SD is the product of internet sales campaigns, stories being mistold and blown out of proportion and a great deal of childishness.

do what what you like , dont hate on others for doing what you dont or wont. live and let live.

[hskwarrior]

It seems to me it's nearly impossible to learn a form properly from a book, but they can be useful for seeing how a pose should look at the end of a move...makes me wonder if back in the day some guy in China learned a form from the poems on a scroll then taught it....how far off was he and are some of us doing his version today? We may never know...

a good reference tool but not a good teaching tool

also depends on the area. southern china had many many iliterate people.


most people are pretty impressed if you are well read and can learn from books.

stop fukin lyin. not one person will admit to admiring you for being able to learn from a book. fool

[tattooedmonk]

me, i've learned from video's of material from our system (direct lineage). i've been doing the system long enough to know how the system operates. i've even created my own form (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhBrZvLdPvc) and put it on youtube and am very open about my creating it. if i pick up something from a trusted video source and teach it to my students they would know i did so.

but because i know books don't demonstrate a form properly, it is left up to the reader and his or her own comprehension of martial arts to figure it out. but if you have not studied that system before you won't know the proper energies or execution without proper teaching.once again , this is your problem. just because jake did something you dont like or is different or whatever , doesnt mean you should lump us all together. many of us are just as a complished or even more so than you are.:eek::D:cool:

[hskwarrior]

once again , this is your problem. just because jake did something you dont like or is different or whatever , doesnt mean you should lump us all together. many of us are just as a complished or even more so than you are.

i call your bluff. and claim you are full of sh1t. busta.

[tattooedmonk]

a good reference tool but not a good teaching tool

also depends on the area. southern china had many many iliterate people.



stop fukin lyin. not one person will admit to admiring you for being able to learn from a book. fool hmm really? so you never learned anything from a book??:p:rolleyes::confused::eek::D:cool: is this where you are learning to become literate?

[tattooedmonk]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahah

[tattooedmonk]

I'm actually impressed with what Jim Jones pulled off...when you step back and look at it, Cult leaders can be pretty impressive individuals...can we discuss cults now? Awesome!!!and then compare them to better than 75 % of the groups and organizations that most, if not all of us belong to or participate in some way.:D

[Syn7]

I'm actually impressed with what Jim Jones pulled off...when you step back and look at it, Cult leaders can be pretty impressive individuals...

That impresses you? Anyone with a slightly above average intelligence can rally stupid people to do stupid things. All that says is that he was smarter and more manipulative than his victims. What is amazing is that somebody would even want to do what he did. Not very impressive tho. Not to me anyways. the

[pazman]

I trained under a teacher for nearly five years. I learned 2 kicks, 5 punches, 1 elbow technique, and how to knee somebody from the clinch. Only after 4 years of training did he think to teach me a kata. I can respect that.

I don't think I could ever respect a teacher who teaches forms they learned from a book or video. I would prefer to train and learn the things they actually know.

[hskwarrior]

:rolleyes: .................................

[Kellen Bassette]

:confused::confused::confused: i'm curious. what is it exactly that you find impressive about him? this should be interesting, so i'm looking forward to what you have to say here.

He convinced 1000 people to sell their belongings leave California, move to the jungle in South America and live in a commune. That's an incredible feat in itself. He admitted to faking miracles, (hiding animal organs and using slight of hand to pull the "disease" out of people)...he had no problem with the deception because it gave them faith, allowing real miracles to happen...so he justified himself and kept his followers.

If you believe the official story...and there are some sketchy details, he told 800 people to kill themselves; and they did...I'm not sure I could get 800 people to do 10 push ups...If you ever listen to the so called "death tapes" at the end it sounded like he just went crazy and took everyone with him.

Sometimes you just got to admire exceptional personalities and not get hung up on semantics, like were they good or evil?

If you think about it, Ghandi and Hitler could have changed roles. They both had that kind of influence, one took it one way, one the other...

[Sima Rong]

Doshin So is another topic altogether, but any Shorinji Kenpo person I've ever talked to were very clear in stating that the naming is out of respect, not to imply that their method comes from Shaolin Gongfu.

I used to train in the art, though never really believed much about the early history of it at all.
Actually Doshin So did claim to be an inheritor to some Northern Shaolin style, which I very much doubt. He even said that he became grandmaster in some dilapidated Shaolin Temple somewhere.
However he designed Shorinji Kempo with influences from lots of different arts including jujutsu, hojojutsu, sumo and Western boxing, and philosophically/spiritually, from Zen (Chan) Buddhism. Whether the art really has much Chinese influence technique-wise it is hard to tell, especially since there doesn't seem to be any record of the styles he supposedly learnt in China.

This pretty much agrees with what I've read about Doshin So while training in Shorinji Kempo: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/60870052/885010681/name/The+Side+Story+of+So+Doshin.pdf

[Syn7]

I don't believe in good or evil. And I don't believe what Jim Jones did was that impressive. It is so easy to manipulate people. I have had so many people ask me or say I am psychic. Really, I'm just manipulating the conversation to go my way and taking cues from body language. It's so easy. Probe validate probe validate MAGIC! :rolleyes: I just randomly practice on people cause it's a great mental exercise.

I'm not trying to be a d1ck, just sayin... And mobilizing whole nations of millions is not even somewhat comparable to finding 1000 gullible dumb needy weak hurting people. We also have to keep in mind that like half of those numbers were children who were just along for the ride cause they were unlucky enough to have retarded caregivers.

[Kellen Bassette]

can we discuss cults now? Awesome!!!and then compare them to better than 75 % of the groups and organizations that most, if not all of us belong to or participate in some way.:D

Seriously...the only difference between a cult and a legitimate political party, church, social club ect... is main stream perception. If the main stream finds it acceptable all is cool, if not Janet Reno drives a tank through your wall and burns your women and children to death.

[Kellen Bassette]

I don't believe in good or evil. And I don't believe what Jim Jones did was that impressive. It is so easy to manipulate people. I have had so many people ask me or say I am psychic. Really, I'm just manipulating the conversation to go my way and taking cues from body language. It's so easy. Probe validate probe validate MAGIC! :rolleyes: I just randomly practice on people cause it's a great mental exercise.

I'm not trying to be a d1ck, just sayin... And mobilizing whole nations of millions is not even somewhat comparable to finding 1000 gullible dumb needy weak hurting people. We also have to keep in mind that like half of those numbers were children who were just along for the ride cause they were unlucky enough to have retarded caregivers.

That's easy to say, but I bet a whole lot of people on this forum have a school and I bet not too many of them have 1000 current students...he was certainly on a smaller scale than others, but they were, in general, far more devoted to him...

[Kellen Bassette]

Also I think there's a big difference between earning passing interest from simple people with mental tricks, well spoken arguments, kung fu moves or what have you. Discipleing them to yourself, on that level, is a whole different animal.

[One student]

From this there comes a number of conflicting things (most of which you mentioned):
1) How does Hsiang The also know/teach the bird forms? He apparently produced notes showing his knowledge of these from the court case in Kentucky. At that time his notes were used to prove GMS did NOT make up these forms but were in fact taught to both of them from GM Ie.

2) What about all of the other material above 1st/2nd black? It's entirely possible this material was learned from GM Ie. Whether this means it comes from the temple is nearly impossible to verify since he and GM Tai Djinn are dead. With little independent verification of GM Tai Djinn's existence, the best we have is 2nd/3rd hand hearsay. And the material GMS "majored" in is beyond 1st/2nd black.

3) Why and how does GMS produce detailed notes for each of the materials that include the Chinese characters, training, etc.? If he made up all of this, that is a pretty impressive feat. Also, most of the old-timers have said these things were taught in the early 60s and 70s. So if GMS thought he was pulling a fast one over on all the "uneducated" masses, why go to the bother of creating such detailed movement names and training in both English and Chinese?

4) How is it that during the 1992 trip to Bandung, the White Lotus Society demonstrated a number of the lower-belt materials supposedly created by GMS? Did he create this back during his time in Indonesia?

I could be mistaken, but as I recall it, back in the early 80's, Master H. taught the 3 bird forms, as the Bird System was his specialty, not GMS. GMS taught, at around the same time, the 3 White Crane forms, and around the same time, the two "China Hand" forms (Lien U Chang, and Chie Chien). And in addition, there are subtle differences in the same lower level forms when taught by MH as opposed to when taught by GMS -- a hand positioned at the temple instead of extended, slight stance variations, things like that. That doesn't seem consistent with GMS making them up, at least not by himself. And if he did, MH was in on it, as his students learned the same material.

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/644002_10151149708887732_2080619121_n.jpg

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/644002_10151149708887732_2080619121_n.jpg

[Shaolin Wookie]

because neither you nor Sin The learned from a Shaolin student. .

Not sure, and neither are you. I don't know where many of the teachers at the Indonesian Chung Yen school learned their MA's from.

[Syn7]

Well that actually ties right into the whole Stockholm shaolin do thing. You look at authentic lineages that make no extraordinary claims with no extraordinary promises and they do ok. Then SD comes along with a fancy story with fancy promises and people rush in. There are thousands of SD students. And many are very devoted to the image of Sin The. Even when shown to be a liar, they still revere the man. Sin The isn't a genius, he just took advantage in a time and place where it had great effect.


Kellen, it really isn't hard to find 1000 people who want to believe in something and feel they need saving. Look at all those crackpot southern pastors in the US, a perfect example. Weak people want to believe they have a power greater than them looking out for them, whether that be a pastor, Jesus, cult leader or whatever.


As to your comment about the difference between total control and admiration, I agree. BUT, oh yes there is a BUT... one leads to the other and only suitable minds will conform. Truly strong secure individuals will show respect but not reverence. Some people are easily caught up, other aren't even capable of being swayed in such a manner. Insecure weak people have always been an easy target and are usually the backbone of the most messed organizations we have ever seen.

The difference between a "mental trick" and a true miracle are merely in ones perception. Like I said before, the weak will be swayed, the strong will not. It really is that simple. Show me one person who followed Jim Jones and CHOSE to die that was a well balanced strong willed intelligent individual with a happy life and a strong familial or communal support system? I would bet alot on that being the reason why so many got sucked in. Community, acceptance and support they couldn't find or cultivate on their own.

Hitler, Ghandi, very smart. JJ, opportunistic leach. He is no more of a genius than that Long Island Medium b1tch I keep seeing on TV. I feel sorry for people whose lives led them to believe such retardedness.

[Syn7]

Sorry for the thread jacking... Anyone mind if I run with this? It is actually relevant to the whole SD syndrome. It will come full circle again, I can already see it.

[Syn7]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/644002_10151149708887732_2080619121_n.jpg

Needs a pic. May I suggest doing a google search titled "retard pic":eek:

[hskwarrior]

not sure, and neither are you. I don't know where many of the teachers at the indonesian chung yen school learned their ma's from.

i know that your lineage stole my lineages form. Thats for dang sure. Shadie biatches.

[hskwarrior]

Yeah i can do that
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/318759_10151149740197732_1450593788_n.jpg

[-N-]

On the topic of Praying Mantis, I never liked the "tang lang chien" form that everyone always criticizes (from the gif).

[...] based on his misperception of what mantis is (poking with the fingers and lots of kicks).
Misperception for sure.

That wasn't Mantis. Wasn't even good fake Mantis, or even anything martial at all.

A 9 year old kid could invent better fake Mantis after watching a Saturday's worth of kung fu movies in Chinatown.

I'm amazed at how bad that was. Looked like he was trying to invent it on the spot and kept running out of ideas.

[One student]

I taught Tang Lang for 2 years for SD, I trained in 7 star for 10 years, The Tang Lang Chien form is in my opinion a White Crane form Mantasized , why I do not know as they have a complete Tang Lang System with springy leg , Jade ring and all that goes with it. also 2 man techniques. So dont ask me what it is other than a good aerobic w/o. KC

As I understood it, Master Hiang was the original teacher of this form in SD, not GMS. Also, I was told by one in the original class it was first taught in (70's or 80's?) that it was not part of any traditional, well known, structured or formal "Praying Mantis" system, but was in fact "made up" by its creator (whether in China or Indonesia) for demonstration and conditioning purposes and passed down. Never (at least not originally) presented as part of 7 Star or other tradional Tang Lang system.

[Shaolin Wookie]

some of us grew up in very traditional chinese gung fu schools typically found in chinatown where we are learning about the actual culture of the chinese people as well. Its an honor to have someone welcome you into their culture and show you. Most of the time they can care less because you could care less.

Missing out on a huge part of kung fu with you are without the culture behind it.

Right, in other words---you must learn kung fu from a Chinese guy in order to know the real ****. If you learn it from a black guy or a white guy who learned it from a Chinese guy or read some MA philosophy in a book, then it's just watered down American nonsense.

LOL. That same mentality amongst many Chinese teachers I've met has convinced me that CMA is a haven for racialism. I'm more for the old American free-market perspective...learn what you can from the best teachers you can find, be they white, black, Chinese, or Brazilian, and make it yours--the old regulatory guild mentality of CMA be ****ed.;)

[Kellen Bassette]

Sorry for the thread jacking... Anyone mind if I run with this? It is actually relevant to the whole SD syndrome. It will come full circle again, I can already see it.

I'm sure it will inevitably find the circle.

The strong minded people won't be so easily swayed...but they'll always be outnumbered by the sheep. How else can the success of reality tv be explained?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I could be mistaken, but as I recall it, back in the early 80's, Master H. taught the 3 bird forms, as the Bird System was his specialty, not GMS. GMS taught, at around the same time, the 3 White Crane forms, and around the same time, the two "China Hand" forms (Lien U Chang, and Chie Chien). And in addition, there are subtle differences in the same lower level forms when taught by MH as opposed to when taught by GMS -- a hand positioned at the temple instead of extended, slight stance variations, things like that. That doesn't seem consistent with GMS making them up, at least not by himself. And if he did, MH was in on it, as his students learned the same material.

Lien U Chang and Jie Chien have enough in common with Lian wu Zhang and Jeet Kuen as taught elsewhere that I have no problem acknowledging that Sin The' didn't make those ones up. That much is clear.

It's the newer stuff that is likely made up. Doesn't make it all crap, but the forms certainly aren't demo material, LOL.

[Shaolin Wookie]

i know that your lineage stole my lineages form. Thats for dang sure. Shadie biatches.

"Stole?" What, your masters couldn't protect their intellectual property? Seems like your kung fu is weak, my friend. And your masters have much to learn about the powers of "mind property." I learned that super secret technique of mind defense long ago.

LOL. Talk about brainwashed. If your masters didn't want anyone jacking their ****, then they wouldn't make DVD's and books for others to copy from. LOL. Live by the copyright game, die by the copyright game.

[tattooedmonk]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/644002_10151149708887732_2080619121_n.jpghahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha now that good and funny. good job a++ :) gold star :D:cool::eek:

[hskwarrior]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/318759_10151149740197732_1450593788_n.jpg

[Shaolin Wookie]

Sorry, when I say lineage I have a very precise meaning...I mean that you can trace a line of transmission, person by person, back to some origin. .

Once again, you're talking about forms.


Who was the first muther****a to throw a backsweep? That's all an intellectual property debate, not an MA debate. If you want to debate lineage, SD loses. If you want to debate MA's, that's something else entirely.

Tell us something we don't know, Pazman. You're preaching to the choir. The only guys who lurk around here who still practice SD are trying to sift through BS to get at what can be verified outside of SD's usual literature.

[hskwarrior]

Scroll up and see the one with your pic

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah i can do that
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/318759_10151149740197732_1450593788_n.jpg

awesome, the likeness is uncanny. have you been stalking me?hhahahahahahahahahah:):p:eek::D:cool:

[Syn7]

I'm sure it will inevitably find the circle.

The strong minded people won't be so easily swayed...but they'll always be outnumbered by the sheep. How else can the success of reality tv be explained?

Word. You are helping make my point. There is enough sheep to keep fake shepherds busy and lead them over a cliff. Doesn't make them smart, it makes them opportunistic. They prey on the weak, and that, quite simply, is not a very difficult task. I have no doubt I could do what he did. None what so ever. He may have been a natural leader and nutcase to boot, but admirable? Not in any way shape or form. Not to me anyways. Your other two examples (Hitler Ghandi), now that is an admirable display of manipulation. Convincing people to let themselves get beaten to make a point or convincing others to commit genocide, now that is an accomplishment worth speaking of. All morals aside, both examples are extraordinary. They only thing about Jim Jones that was extraordinary was his willingness to do harm for his own deluded purposes. Most people who could do that don't do that because to them it is utterly contemptible. Jim Jones was extraordinary in that he seemed to be okay with what he was doing. That is all.

[One student]

Lien U Chang and Jie Chien have enough in common with Lian wu Zhang and Jeet Kuen as taught elsewhere that I have no problem acknowledging that Sin The' didn't make those ones up. That much is clear.

It's the newer stuff that is likely made up. Doesn't make it all crap, but the forms certainly aren't demo material, LOL.

I've asked for, searched for, but never found or been shown, books or video for a lot of the SD material, such as Liu Hsing (Meteor Fist), the Golden Leopards, the 8 Drunken Immortals, and others. Good or bad, that's a lot of material and a lot of detail, for just one person to just suddenly "make up."

And there are more than a few, lifetime devotees to SD, that can kick some serious butt, and also have amazing chi kung skills. Did all that come from nothing but "made up" copied stuff? If so, I wouldn't mind having more of that skill, regardless of how it came about.

Certainly, pure original unadulterated Chinese Kung Fu, including pure original unadulterated Shaolin, with all the culture, history, and philosophy (which would by the way put to shame some of the commentators here) would be the best of all possible (martial arts) worlds. But short of a time machine, and as far as SD may be from that, or as close to that as many here think they are, I don't know of anyone anywhere who has that. Everything you and we learned came from someone who got it from someone who got it from someone else, etc. and etc. How it is packaged and presented aside for argument, I think there is true benefit from what we learn, from what we can do with it, more than where it came from.

[Syn7]

Well I may not be the best rapper in the world
But I play as one in this reality TV sitcom
soap opera, thriller, dramatization
Huhuh.. I would get naked up in here but I'm on probation
They prob'ly striking me out for getting too open with innovation
But don't get it twisted
I'll straight flash on y'all in a five and a heartbeat
I'm fully a full-blown bully
300 and 55 pounds soaking wet stylin'
Woody Allen who be whylin', huh
Everyone say hi, to the pork, Mork and Mindy Menendez brother
Jim Jones of the mic that won't blow a cyanide capsule cover
Jupiter Hitchc0ck would LOVE to hit a female AIDS patient without a rubber
Talk about your rough, rugged, and raw
In the flesh, David Koresh on pearl tongues and steroids






Bay Area what?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I asked, why caouldn't I call some made-up stuff "Shaolin" if I did learn from shaolin students--and I have, outside of SD.

You replied:


because neither you nor Sin The learned from a Shaolin student. .


Right. But considering that "shaolin" is now a subsidiary of the wishy-washy half-mercantilist, half communist Chinese state and its regulatory commissions, then who has learned from a Shaolin student? Or...who hasn't? And what kind of expatirate Chinese-born students formed the teaching staff at Chung Yen martial arts school in Bandung? And from whom did Sin The' learn? We know of some, but they weren't "Shaolin" monks as far as we can tell. But they were doing Shaolin styles. So what's your definition of "Shaolin"?

Your answers are all the same: Whatever the Chinese people who you credit as reliable sources happen to tell you. Stick with a popular style, worship its ancestors, and take pride in a lineage that can't defend you because "lineages" do not correlate to martial efficiency. And what is their ( your popular stylists') knowledge of Chinese Inidies martial arts? Well, it tends to be rather low. So WTF do you have to contribute to this discussion except to cry about how your masters were unable to protect their mind property?

LOL. Troll elsewhere. We've heard your argument before, and most of us agree that SDs history is largely fabricated.. We've got 1000 pages of your drivel (and you didn't even type it--that's how unoriginal and uninformative you are).

[One student]

me, i've learned from video's of material from our system (direct lineage). i've been doing the system long enough to know how the system operates. i've even created my own form (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhBrZvLdPvc) and put it on youtube and am very open about my creating it. if i pick up something from a trusted video source and teach it to my students they would know i did so.

but because i know books don't demonstrate a form properly, it is left up to the reader and his or her own comprehension of martial arts to figure it out. but if you have not studied that system before you won't know the proper energies or execution without proper teaching.

Is there an objective test to show the quality of your "made up" forms, versus for example GMST's (or anyone else's) "made up" forms? And I don't mean how it is represented, that is a different question. And I don't mean a majority vote of other people who think they know more about martial arts, I mean something objective. More people willing to put up their time and money to learn it and practice it? The number of years (or decades) people continue to learn it and study it? More people able to prevail in a fight using it? I don't know, I'm just asking the question.

[bawang]

Right, in other words---you must learn kung fu from a Chinese guy in order to know the real ****. If you learn it from a black guy or a white guy who learned it from a Chinese guy or read some MA philosophy in a book, then it's just watered down American nonsense.


but sin the is playing the "wise chinaman" with his long hair and funny talk. thats why your shaolin do story is so outrageous and far fetched. because you feel a desire for that exoticness, for authenticity, for the magical lost shaolin.

[hskwarrior]

Is there an objective test to show the quality of your "made up" forms, versus for example GMST's (or anyone else's) "made up" forms? And I don't mean how it is represented, that is a different question. And I don't mean a majority vote of other people who think they know more about martial arts, I mean something objective. More people willing to put up their time and money to learn it and practice it? The number of years (or decades) people continue to learn it and study it? More people able to prevail in a fight using it? I don't know, I'm just asking the question.

the original objective of my "CREATING" a form was out of my own desire to see if i had the ability to put together my own form. perhaps for my personal demonstration at various celebrations. however, my students saw the worth of this form and so do others. its my own experience with Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.

the objective to create forms in order to fool the unsuspecting white and black people of the midwest where a chinese person was a rare sight is a dispicable way of exploiting gung fu. i don't care who agree's or disagree's. Sin The is wrong for what he did. PERIOD.

if you are under the assumption that a form will make your fighting skills any better then you are sadly mistaken. sure there is a quality test of the techniques found within the form. and yes i have people who are emailing me regularly asking if i have the whole set on tape because they would want to learn it.

does this answer your question?



the ability to prevail in a fight never never never.....did i say NEVER depends on the style or form top win the fight for them. it depends on your personal fighting ability

[wenshu]

You guys are still equivocating like a mother****er.

The simple fact remains, you learned a **** load of forms you had no business learning. Frankly, accusing you of theft is not a exactly a tenable position when masters are releasing books and videos in the first place. I for one don't really care to label anything as stolen. What I care about is it that you look like a complete donkey's ass when you perform them as improperly as SD does. Claiming them as part of some all encompassing system of Chinese gong fu only serves to stretch the *******ry into the obscene.

Forms are almost completely useless to begin with. SD just makes it even worse. it is painfully obvious to anyone who has done even cursory research in Chinese gong fu when someone does a form who has no business doing that form. It's not the form itself but the environment out of which it grows that is important, that's why you all look like fools doing Chinese forms with karate body mechanics in an outfit that looks like a waiter from TGI Fridays dressed up for Halloween as The Karate Kid.

The "all forms were made up at some point" argument is complete bull**** for the same reasons that SD makes people look like spastic reanimated donkey rectum; forms aren't just made up. They evolve out of a specific context and environment and they're hard enough to perform competently within that proper context. Why do you think styles of Chinese gongfu almost always have some regional identifier attached to them? That's my objection to it, I don't care that it was "stolen" I find the complete disregard for quality offensive.

Pivoting the discussion to attack the character of SD's critics is as desperate and empty as half hearted quasi-eastern philosophical bromides or Tea Party John Galt fetishization. More prevarication to try and defend the indefensible. You guys are victims! You should be ****ed at Sin The and his immediate cronies, not defending that pathetic con man. The fact that you're not just makes you enablers.

Please stop the whole, "but we can totally kick ass so that makes our crappy form *******izations ok." No, it doesn't. Note that I'm giving some of you the benefit of the doubt as far as fighting experience is concerned only because judging from the quality of writing, you've all taken a few too many shots to the dome piece.

[hskwarrior]

Right. But considering that "shaolin" is now a subsidiary of the wishy-washy half-mercantilist, half communist Chinese state and its regulatory commissions, then who has learned from a Shaolin student? Or...who hasn't? And what kind of expatirate Chinese-born students formed the teaching staff at Chung Yen martial arts school in Bandung? And from whom did Sin The' learn? We know of some, but they weren't "Shaolin" monks as far as we can tell. But they were doing Shaolin styles. So what's your definition of "Shaolin"?

i don't know where he got his stuff from. it doesn't take long to gaffle up someone's stuff then teach it to the unsuspecting. what i do know is if there ever was a hairy ass monk like shaolin do claims there would be some form of written records of it somewhere. however, all the dates don't add up which indicates not a long of effective thinking took place.

is this Chung Yen there now? what do they have to say?

just because you copy someones style who DOES do shaolin, doesn't make YOU a shaolin practitioner. it makes you a thief who has no respect, morals, or a clue.

[bawang]

if you have seen the son, you have seen the father. if you have seen the father, you have seen the son.

these are not victims. they are the fruits of the moral and spiritual corruption and degeneration of sin the. their minds have been molded and the shape has been set. they will never return to innocence again.

[hskwarrior]

oh look, here is some bandung martial arts and they're NOT wearing karate gi's or wearing karate belts. how interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io_xAbBrCas

[tattooedmonk]

well since i was responding directly to the few posts before me that brought shorin ryu into the discussion to compare, and i stated you cant really compare shorin ryu to shaolin do as they are very different in several ways. then you called me ignorant out of the blue. then i backed my statement up with history. i wasnt even talking to you about anything.everything and everyone has a history. I would bet that SD is more like it in many ways than CMA ....:pwhat I am saying is this , somewhere between indonesia and here and 50 plus years of teaching there is some proof of legitimate teachings. its most likely that sin the's SD was a family villiage style that was based on southern shaolin roots ...to legitimize the system and expand things have been added over time and stories have been made up and or blown out of proportion.... you know like the game telephone??? the chinese and many people would rather go with the lie and or ignore the mistake and save face.....so F-UCKing what?

[hskwarrior]

everything and everyone has a history. I would bet that SD is more like it in many ways than CMA ....what I am saying is this , somewhere between indonesia and here and 50 plus years of teaching there is some proof of legitimate teachings. its most likely that sin the's SD was a family villiage style that was based on southern shaolin roots ...to legitimize the system and expand things have been added over time and stories have been made up and or blown out of proportion.... you know like the game telephone??? the chinese and many people would rather go with the lie and or ignore the mistake and save face.....soF-UCKingwhat?

dang, brainwashing is hella effective!!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

oh look, here is some bandung martial arts and they're NOT wearing karate gi's or wearing karate belts. how interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io_xAbBrCasWAS THIS 60 YEARS AGO??its part of the tradition that was taught back then ....SO****INGWHAT? all this means nothing ...nothing. just words , only words .

[bawang]

so F-UCKing what?[/SIZE]

so you have a legacy of evil.

knowingly doing something immoral is definition of evil. i name you satan.

[hskwarrior]

WAS THIS 60 YEARS AGO??its part of the tradition that was taught back then ....SO****INGWHAT? all this means nothing ...nothing. just words , only words .


60 years of kah-kah and stolen forms from video's and books.

[bawang]

60 years of kah-kah and stolen forms from video's and books.

the light of jesus christ will expose them for what they are. their dojo is the synagogue of satan.

[hskwarrior]

its the underground click
Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut will put you underground quick
heavy hitters out ta gitya quick to knock ya blok off
Think about it ponder the **** you need ta walk off
when it starts to rain ya gonna feel the pain
as the deadly chop choy straight pierces ya spleen
how many ****in times do i have to explain
we're the underground click
Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut will put you underground quick!

(YEAH MY STYLE DATES BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF TIME, SO CHUMP STEP OFF CUZZ I'M GINNA GET MINE!)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/40591_419878967731_3421130_n.jpg

SEE THE CHAIN ROUND MY NECK, IT WAS A MICROPHONE LIGHTER. BACK THEN IT WAS PIMPIN. BUT IN MY LEFT HAND YOU CAN SEE, I WAS STILL WALKING WITH A CANE AT THAT TIME

[bawang]

you are one with the choloate peoples

shaolin do will never unlock the secret of the magical animal form

[Syn7]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

At this point, I'm just here for the side show. I'll throw in whenever I feel the desire, but I don't expect to open any closed minds. It's just fun to manipulate fake Shaolin victims and watch Bawang talk about his penus and look at HSK's pictures.

For those who say they are looking for the truth, I get that. I do. But haven't you wasted enough time with Sin The? I mean, come on. How much energy are you willing to put in to sort that mess out? Cut your losses and keep what feels right, but don't waste any more time trying to validate your decisions. Just move on man. You have a base that may be flawed, may not be. It will get sorted out by a real teacher. Just tell your new sifu what your experience is and what your needs are and go from there. If you find a good Sifu, they will take it from there and hook you up accordingly.


By the way, love the sig, KC :rolleyes:


Oh but I will address the one cat who made the post about the challenge then backing off and talking about weight class. I think you should re-read the posts in question. Nobody has backed away from anything. I'll roll with anyone who is friendly. And for the people who are not friendly, I'm not gonna square off and kickbox with you. If I feel threatened I'm going to dance and stab, step and slash.

[Syn7]

dang, brainwashing is hella effective!!!!!

You notice how he has started to emulate your style HSK? Slowly but surely. Weird.

[tattooedmonk]

so you have a legacy of evil.

knowingly doing something immoral is definition of evil. i name you satan.

wow, thats nice . thanks:)

[tattooedmonk]

At this point, I'm just here for the side show. I'll throw in whenever I feel the desire, but I don't expect to open any closed minds. It's just fun to manipulate fake Shaolin victims and watch Bawang talk about his penus and look at HSK's pictures.

For those who say they are looking for the truth, I get that. I do. But haven't you wasted enough time with Sin The? I mean, come on. How much energy are you willing to put in to sort that mess out? Cut your losses and keep what feels right, but don't waste any more time trying to validate your decisions. Just move on man. You have a base that may be flawed, may not be. It will get sorted out by a real teacher. Just tell your new sifu what your experience is and what your needs are and go from there. If you find a good Sifu, they will take it from there and hook you up accordingly.


By the way, love the sig, KC :rolleyes:


Oh but I will address the one cat who made the post about the challenge then backing off and talking about weight class. I think you should re-read the posts in question. Nobody has backed away from anything. I'll roll with anyone who is friendly. And for the people who are not friendly, I'm not gonna square off and kickbox with you. If I feel threatened I'm going to dance and stab, step and slash.hahahahahahahahaha

[Syn7]

all this means nothing ...nothing. just words , only words .

Well, yeah. No kidding? Did you just figure that out? You have an excellent grasp on the obvious.