Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[tattooedmonk]

the original objective of my "CREATING" a form was out of my own desire to see if i had the ability to put together my own form. perhaps for my personal demonstration at various celebrations. however, my students saw the worth of this form and so do others. its my own experience with Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.

the objective to create forms in order to fool the unsuspecting white and black people of the midwest where a chinese person was a rare sight is a dispicable way of exploiting gung fu. i don't care who agree's or disagree's. Sin The is wrong for what he did. PERIOD.

if you are under the assumption that a form will make your fighting skills any better then you are sadly mistaken. sure there is a quality test of the techniques found within the form. and yes i have people who are emailing me regularly asking if i have the whole set on tape because they would want to learn it.

does this answer your question?



the ability to prevail in a fight never never never.....did i say NEVER depends on the style or form top win the fight for them. it depends on your personal fighting abilityhahahahahahahahahahaah

[hskwarrior]

you notice how he has started to emulate your style hsk? Slowly but surely. Weird.

wuta biter!

[hskwarrior]

you are one with the choloate peoples

shaolin do will never unlock the secret of the magical animal form

right on. I've always been one with the chocolatays.

[Leto]

Very well said. If you ever find yourself in Tennessee, let me know. I will buy you a drink just for this post.

If I end up in Asheville, NC or thereabouts, I'll give you a ring. That's not too far from TN. :)

[Syn7]

I trained under a teacher for nearly five years. I learned 2 kicks, 5 punches, 1 elbow technique, and how to knee somebody from the clinch. Only after 4 years of training did he think to teach me a kata. I can respect that.

I don't think I could ever respect a teacher who teaches forms they learned from a book or video. I would prefer to train and learn the things they actually know.

Ain't nuttin wrong with learning a small set of high percentage techs and just rollin with that. Better that with some bag work and real sparring with real resistance than to do a million forms over and over. I like forms, but they only serve a small function in the overall curriculum, IMO anyways. Although, you can do quite a bit with 2 kicks, 5 punches, 1 elbow, some knees, a decent collar tie and some defense.

[Shaolin Wookie]

But haven't you wasted enough time with Sin The? I mean, come on. How much energy are you willing to put in to sort that mess out? .

LOL. How much time have you put into this thread in the past 6 months?

I'd say, you put in many hours of "work" while I was out training. Surely you're not suggesting that I'm the one who's obsessed with sorting that "mess" out? Like it or not, you're a ****ing trainwreck, and likely a fat little teenager who I'd kick the crap out of in 5 seconds or less (or snatch to the ground with a single-leg in 5 seconds or less). No doubt you have the five fingers of death with all the typing you do, but they're QWERTY deadly only on webboards.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I trained under a teacher for nearly five years. I learned 2 kicks, 5 punches, 1 elbow technique, and how to knee somebody from the clinch. Only after 4 years of training did he think to teach me a kata. I can respect that.

I don't think I could ever respect a teacher who teaches forms they learned from a book or video. I would prefer to train and learn the things they actually know.

No takedowns in the first 3 months?

You wasted 5 years...katas or no.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think however the main difference, if we look at shorin ryu aka 'shaolin style' is that it is a fusion of okinawan martial arts, already known in depth and used, with that of shaolin martial arts. You have a venerated warrior, known across the land, combining his current martial knowledge with new things he learned. The name given was to honor the roots of the chinese martial arts that influenced the change, as well as to set this style apart from other okinawan styles of the day.

you cant really compare shaolin do and shorin ryu as they have very different histories.

It needs to be understood that the Okinawan took whatever form of TCMA they learned ( White Crane, Five Ancestors, SPM, dragon shape, etc) and made it their own.
They blended the TCMA they learned WITH the indigenious MA of "TE".
The forms became "karate".
Sanchin is a perfect example, regardless of which verison they learned, people like Miyagi, Higanona, Uechi, and others, modified it and made it unique to the okinawan way of doing things.
There was never the idea that "this is how it was done in the shaolin temple" or anything silly like that.
Okinawa systems are quite clear on how much the originators made their karate original.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Forms are almost completely useless to begin with. SD just makes it even worse.

The "all forms were made up at some point" argument is complete bull**** for the same reasons that SD makes people look like spastic reanimated donkey rectum; forms aren't just made up. They evolve out of a specific context and environment and they're hard enough to perform competently within that proper context. Why do you think styles of Chinese gongfu almost always have some regional identifier attached to them? That's my objection to it, I don't care that it was "stolen" I find the complete disregard for quality offensive.




Okay. Which SD forms specifically are made up and which ones aren't? Which ones are quality and which ones arent? I've held my own in MMA and Muay Thai with the same techniques I learned in SD---not against pros, mind you, but against other students. Also, many of the techniques we teach are taught by others--the takedowns, drills, and throws.

I call this empirical evidence of SD's martial trustworthiness in many respects. It also has failings. I agree. And the "regional identifier" I usually see attached is that SD is a Chinese Indies art, not a "Chinese" art per se. Our forms look like our core curriculum---30 short forms, 30 chinna, our two-man techniques/ippons, and sparring techs. And the principles taught by this core curriciulum are, well, standard amoingst MA schools with a focus on combat, not forms.

BTW, I've been to traditiional CMA schools where the vast majority look like "spastic reanimated donkey rectums." You'd have to admit this, because it's universal in MA schools (even MMA:eek:). Many students simply can't do forms or dirlls properly with the right mechanics, since many are out of shape (and not getting in better shape), and hence just CAN'T do forms or drills properly.

[wenshu]

I call this empirical evidence of SD's martial trustworthiness in many respects.

Your definition of 'empirical evidence' is woefully inadequate. You probably know better too.

No, what you have is a personal anecdote of a subjective observation.

Where exactly are all the examples of this supposedly pure core source material? In any case, it sure as hell ain't pure anymore. Taint by association. Nothing can withstand the weight of 800 pounds and thirty years of bull****. If the core material was so great, Shaolin Do should've ****ing stuck with it. Why spend all that time massacring a bunch of forms that don't even begin to fit within your system?

Nothing in martial arts looks as bad as Shaolin Do. Nothing. I don't care if someone walked into a BJJ school, put on a Gi and then proceeded to take a steaming dump in the middle of the mat. Just by virtue of it taking place in a real school it's orders of magnitude better than Shaolin Do. I'd still rather roll on that mat than practice anything remotely resembling Shaolin Do.

There is no amount of personal anecdotes about how much ass you can kick that is going to wash away the taint of the laughable mish mash of almost a thousand forms that surrounds Shaolin Do.

Ok, maybe USSD is as bad.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Your definition of 'empirical evidence' is woefully inadequate. You probably know better too.

No, what you have is a personal anecdote of a subjective observation.

Where exactly are all the examples of this supposedly pure core source material? In any case, it sure as hell ain't pure anymore. Taint by association. Nothing can withstand the weight of 800 pounds and thirty years of bull****. If the core material was so great, Shaolin Do should've ****ing stuck with it. Why spend all that time massacring a bunch of forms that don't even begin to fit within your system?

Nothing in martial arts looks as bad as Shaolin Do. Nothing. I don't care if someone walked into a BJJ school, put on a Gi and then proceeded to take a steaming dump in the middle of the mat. Just by virtue of it taking place in a real school it's orders of magnitude better than Shaolin Do. I'd still rather roll on that mat than practice anything remotely resembling Shaolin Do.

There is no amount of personal anecdotes about how much ass you can kick that is going to wash away the taint of the laughable mish mash of almost a thousand forms that surrounds Shaolin Do.

Ok, maybe USSD is as bad.

Awesome. And you're posting here because? Oh yeah, because SD sucks. Lol

[Shaolin Wookie]

Your definition of 'empirical evidence' is woefully inadequate. You probably know better too.

No, what you have is a personal anecdote of a subjective observation.

Where exactly are all the examples of this supposedly pure core source material? In any case, it sure as hell ain't pure anymore. Taint by association. Nothing can withstand the weight of 800 pounds and thirty years of bull****. If the core material was so great, Shaolin Do should've ****ing stuck with it. Why spend all that time massacring a bunch of forms that don't even begin to fit within your system?

Nothing in martial arts looks as bad as Shaolin Do. Nothing. I don't care if someone walked into a BJJ school, put on a Gi and then proceeded to take a steaming dump in the middle of the mat. Just by virtue of it taking place in a real school it's orders of magnitude better than Shaolin Do. I'd still rather roll on that mat than practice anything remotely resembling Shaolin Do.

There is no amount of personal anecdotes about how much ass you can kick that is going to wash away the taint of the laughable mish mash of almost a thousand forms that surrounds Shaolin Do.

Ok, maybe USSD is as bad.
Insofar as all empirical evidence is subjectively obtained, I'm not sure what you mean. Is empirical evidence a gnostic revelation.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Every school has same core. 30 short forms, which are punching drills, not forms. 30 sparring sequences, 30 china which are holds and escapes, and about 20 2-man stepping and retaliation drills. Nothing fancy there. Standard stuff

[hskwarrior]

every school has same core. 30 short forms, which are punching drills, not forms. 30 sparring sequences, 30 china which are holds and escapes, and about 20 2-man stepping and retaliation drills. Nothing fancy there. Standard stuff

stolen from who?

[wenshu]

Insofar as all empirical evidence is subjectively obtained, I'm not sure what you mean. Is empirical evidence a gnostic revelation.

I guess you don't know any better.

I'd offer you a rebuttal about measurable results by multiple independent subjects as a baseline for empirical objectivity but you would only offer more maladroit philosophical equivocation.

[bawang]

Awesome. And you're posting here because? Oh yeah, because SD sucks. Lol

i post to collect tears of shaolin do inside bottle, then wear on neck for magical protection.

[bawang]

i thought black people had natural rhythm and dance, then i saw video of black shaolin do guy.

thank you for breaking stereotype shaolin do, now i know black people can also hop around with rubber legs, empty distant gaze, hunched back, giving floppy snap kicks like they have feet of rabbit.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Lol, in other words you could subjectively offer empirical evidence, but you subjectively choose not to. Universal empiricist a are as silly as theists.

[Shaolin Wookie]

stolen from who?

The ten tigers of canton. Lol. Nobody needs to steal sweeps, throws, locks, and punches.

[hskwarrior]

black people without rhythm is like Shaolin Do with authentic gung fu.

[wenshu]

Lol, in other words you could subjectively offer empirical evidence, but you subjectively choose not to. Universal empiricist a are as silly as theists.

Dafuq u talking about

Well, I asked for maladroit philosophical equivocation and you eagerly delivered. In fact you took it to the next level of pure confabulation.

[wenshu]

i post to collect tears of shaolin do inside bottle, then wear on neck for magical protection.

Shaolin Do schadenfreude is a universal common ground that brings the community together. Our mutual animosity gives me strength and hope.

[MasterKiller]

I like how Wookie tries to posit himself as some sort of quasi-intellectual academeic, then results to arguments like "Eveyone else calls theirs Shaolin, so why can't I?"

[Empty_Cup]

...

It's even possible that he really had notes from his teacher with lyrics for some forms, but I doubt he learned many if any of them (especially since he mistranslated some of the names. He should have known, for example, that it was "Zhai Yao" and not "Zhai Shua". Yao 要 and Shua 耍 characters look very similar, and it was a scribbly hand written document so easy to make the mistake. But this does imply he got it from a hand written document, not a printed book.

I find this a highly plausible scenario given the sheer volume of forms, the setup of the Chung yen school, and the stories I've heard of the suitcase. Good post.

[hskwarrior]

I like how Wookie tries to posit himself as some sort of quasi-intellectual academeic, then results to arguments like "Eveyone else calls theirs Shaolin, so why can't I?"

lololol i thought i was the only one who noticed that lololol

[MasterKiller]

lololol i thought i was the only one who noticed that lololol

He also forgets to tell people, when referencing his video performances of SD forms, that he attended a Wushu school for a year or so to have his techniques cleaned up.

[hskwarrior]

He also forgets to tell people, when referencing his video performances of SD forms, that he attended a Wushu school for a year or so to have his techniques cleaned up.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!

the fraudulence that comes from this lineage is unbelievable. its even underhanded intended to fool people. LMFAO!!!!!!

[pazman]

No takedowns in the first 3 months?

You wasted 5 years...katas or no.

Wow, a SD guy chastising others for wasting their time. That's rich.

You go to a Judo school, don't expect to learn how to punch.

You go to a boxing school, don't expect to learn how to kick.

If given the choice between going to a school that claims to teach 900 forms and be a "complete":rolleyes: martial art, versus training at a school that is honest about what it teaches and does a good job of it, I think the choice clear.

[bawang]

Shaolin Do schadenfreude is a universal common ground that brings the community together. Our mutual animosity gives me strength and hope.

hearing the cries of anguish and despair of shaolin doe has cured my eretile dysfunction

He also forgets to tell people, when referencing his video performances of SD forms, that he attended a Wushu school for a year or so to have his techniques cleaned up.

ROFFLES

[bawang]

black people without rhythm is like Shaolin Do with authentic gung fu.

maybe they stole his rythym and put inside a bottle

[hskwarrior]

maybe they stole his rythym and put inside a bottle

or bought someone else's bottle and changed the label replacing it with their Shaolin Do label.

[bawang]

*masterbates to secret tape of real hung sing five animal form

ITS INCREDIBLE

THE BEST FORM IN UNIVERSE HISTORY EVER

[hskwarrior]

THE BEST FORM IN UNIVERSE HISTORY EVER

yes. when finally mastered it will inkreese peenoose size 10 fold. that is the true secret of this treasured form. i've yet to completely master is as my peenoose has only inkreesed 8 fold. still working on it.

HUNG SING!!!!!! :D

[bawang]

yes. when finally mastered it will inkreese peenoose size 10 fold. that is the true secret of this treasured form. i've yet to completely master is as my peenoose has only inkreesed 8 fold. still working on it.

HUNG SING!!!!!! :D

my penooz increase from 2.3 cm to 3.6 cm

my khram diameter from 1.2 cm to 2.7 cm

[hskwarrior]

my penooz increase from 2.3 cm to 3.6 cm

my khram diameter from 1.2 cm to 2.7 cm

oh! so far i'm only 7 in around. working for the ten.

[bawang]

oh! so far i'm only 7 in around. working for the ten.

have you tried harnessing dragon spirit

[hskwarrior]

have you tried harnessing dragon spirit

nah can't get passed Tiger. :( one day.....one day. :(

[bawang]

nah can't get passed Tiger. :( one day.....one day. :(

practice and mantis beaks until your ki becomes filled.

[hskwarrior]

practice and mantis beaks until your ki becomes filled.

will keep you updated :D

[Judge Pen]

oh look, here is some bandung martial arts and they're NOT wearing karate gi's or wearing karate belts. how interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io_xAbBrCas

In the videos that were from the vesitages of Sin's old school, most of the students were barefoot and wore karate belts, but Sam style tops.

[Judge Pen]

For those who say they are looking for the truth, I get that. I do. But haven't you wasted enough time with Sin The? I mean, come on. How much energy are you willing to put in to sort that mess out? Cut your losses and keep what feels right, but don't waste any more time trying to validate your decisions. Just move on man. You have a base that may be flawed, may not be. It will get sorted out by a real teacher. Just tell your new sifu what your experience is and what your needs are and go from there. If you find a good Sifu, they will take it from there and hook you up accordingly.

Most of the time this is just a distraction from work and I hold no real hope of getting any truth. But sometimes there's a nugget of information here and there that piques my interest.

[Judge Pen]

If I end up in Asheville, NC or thereabouts, I'll give you a ring. That's not too far from TN. :)

Yeah, that's about an hour and a half from Knoxville.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I like how Wookie tries to posit himself as some sort of quasi-intellectual academeic, then results to arguments like "Eveyone else calls theirs Shaolin, so why can't I?"

Lol. It was a joke, but I do wonder... If shaolin temple teaches everything nowadays and erects stones even to SD, then where's the line? What is shaolin?

[Shaolin Wookie]

He also forgets to tell people, when referencing his video performances of SD forms, that he attended a Wushu school for a year or so to have his techniques cleaned up.

No techniques. Just 3 roads of long fist. And I tell everyone that, just not in every post. Also add capoeira, Silat, kuntao, bjj, mma...long fist did **** for mantis. My instructor specialized in mantis.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I love this thread !!
http://i1.cpcache.com/product/625992839/shaolin_temple_maa_classic_thong.jpg?color=White&height=460&width=460

http://chanarchive.org/content/1_b/374800095/1326821162421.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lloysibg9c1qjvpsoo1_1280.gif

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread is fascinating...
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lustm3kP3y1r5r8duo5_250.gif

[kwaichang]

wow 1009 cool SD is the Best Wenshu u s#@k. You have no idea if all SD pract look bad. Lets see ur form. and what u do. KC:cool:

[goju]

i post to collect tears of shaolin do inside bottle, then wear on neck for magical protection.

do this protect against the dreaded hopping vampire?

[MasterKiller]

Lol. It was a joke, but I do wonder... If shaolin temple teaches everything nowadays and erects stones even to SD, then where's the line? What is shaolin?

Steeles that essentially say "Thanks for your cash donation" are hardly evidence of Shaolin co-opting anything from anyone who buys one.

And USSD and Shaolin Do seem confused by the notion that buying a Steele is not the equivalent of having a monument erected in their honor. Well, not really. They just know stretching the importance brings them more $$ from white people with a cultural identity crisis.

I mean, it wasn't so long ago that SD and CSC school owners were telling people Sin The' had a statue of himself erected at Shaolin....

[kwaichang]

I think you are a LIar show me the post that claims there is a statue of GM Sin at the Shaolin Temple. You are a Joke. You know what we need to have is a good ole fashion Tournament with all these people what say you Gene Ching TC want to back a Grudge Tourney? KC:D

[kwaichang]

i thought black people had natural rhythm and dance, then i saw video of black shaolin do guy.

thank you for breaking stereotype shaolin do, now i know black people can also hop around with rubber legs, empty distant gaze, hunched back, giving floppy snap kicks like they have feet of rabbit.

How racist is this a real shame . Examine the source. SD is Good Kung Fu. KC

[hskwarrior]

How racist is this a real shame . Examine the source. SD is Good Kung Fu. KC

bullsheet! its good caca. nothing else.

[kwaichang]

U2 Mama KC:D

[MasterKiller]

I think you are a LIar show me the post that claims there is a statue of GM Sin at the Shaolin Temple. You are a Joke. You know what we need to have is a good ole fashion Tournament with all these people what say you Gene Ching TC want to back a Grudge Tourney? KC:D


http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20357&page=8



This End the Debate..., January 21, 2003
Reviewer: A reader
To all the skeptics out there, did you know Grandmaster The has a statue at the Shaolin temple? Put up by the Abbot as his recognition of Grandmaster The's authenticity? Did you know the older monks at Shaolin stand in awe and amazement as Shaolin-do students perform fighting forms they haven't seen in years? Did you know that Shaolin-do has stone tablets at most of the Shaolin temples in China? Would they let a Tae Kwon Do guy show up out of no where and put up a statue or tablet outside their temple doors? Do you think they would do these things lightly? ENOUGH SAID. Buy the book, folks, you may learn something...

So, KC......
http://i.imgur.com/4HmWY.jpg

[kwaichang]

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20357&page=8




http://i.imgur.com/4HmWY.jpg
And where does it say a statue Of Sin The ????? KC You exagerate i see!!!!!!!!!!

[hskwarrior]

dem some big bawls rightdere

[kwaichang]

It does not say that , and as U exagerate about that as you do about your own abilitiies, and experience. KC:rolleyes:

[Lucas]

"Grandmaster The has a statue at the Shaolin temple"

is a clear implication. what else coudl possibly be meant by that? that there is a statue of chewbaca?

[Lucas]

do this protect against the dreaded hopping vampire?

the sheet you choose to respond to now days makes me scratch my head goju lol

[kwaichang]

That is not what MK stated is all I say and later it talks of the Steeles etc. That is in whole context of the statement. KC

[MasterKiller]

It does not say that , and as U exagerate about that as you do about your own abilitiies, and experience. KC:rolleyes:

Dude, people used to spout that nonsense constantly on here. JP used to set people straight about it. THEMEECER was even one of the guys who took some convincing, if I remember correctly.

I love how this is ambiguously worded about just who honored him...

[hskwarrior]

U2 Mama KC

i gotcha mama. she's wrapped up in an ice box

[kwaichang]

And that statement could be by anyone not necessarily a SD guy, it says a Reader KC so anyone could have said it it is hearsay.

[kwaichang]

So ur a Necrophiliac, too eh. KC

[hskwarrior]

you she loved me too

[goju]

the sheet you choose to respond to now days makes me scratch my head goju lol

Lol well theres nothing more to add to this thread that i haven't said already.:D

Though the stone The statue claim was certainly interesting. They never brought that up when they tried to indoctrinate me into the shaolin do cult.

[bawang]

do this protect against the dreaded hopping vampire?

no its to protect from dolphin and chocolate men

[bawang]

How racist is this a real shame . Examine the source. SD is Good Kung Fu. KC

whats racist is sin the taking the good honorable name of shaolin, and sh1tting all over it. just spraying sh1t all over and smearing it to the prestige of shaolin temple.

[wenshu]

Wenshu u s#@k. You have no idea if all SD pract look bad. Lets see ur form. and what u do. KC:cool:

Write a grammatical sentence first, halfwit.

[Kellen Bassette]

I've asked for, searched for, but never found or been shown, books or video for a lot of the SD material, such as Liu Hsing (Meteor Fist), the Golden Leopards, the 8 Drunken Immortals, and others. Good or bad, that's a lot of material and a lot of detail, for just one person to just suddenly "make up."



Leung Ting did a book on 8 Drunken Immortals, a video too...

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/kungfu/collbk_drunkboxing.htm

It's titled "The Drunkard Kung Fu"..it demonstrates 8DI...is this the form you mean?

There are several vcds available on Meteor Fist forms; and I'm sure I've seen a book as well...although I expect there are several variations...not sure which one you are referring to.

[hskwarrior]

you know this is utterly disgusting. i keep hearing about video's and tapes and NO ONE is talking about a real sfiu here. i mean fukking disgusting. :(

http://www.pukeplanet.com/pukeimages/toilet_puke.jpg

[Syn7]

Anybody can buy honours from todays temple. It's just another arm on the propaganda beast. You want good Shaolin, go find some rural farmworkers.

[hskwarrior]

Anybody can buy honours from todays temple. It's just another arm on the propaganda beast. You want good Shaolin, go find some rural farmworkers.

same thing with mexican food. you want the good stuff? go to the little hole in the wall place. **** im hungry right now. i could really go for some Shaolin Do-nuts. ( i know that sounded gay. so what! i am.........NOT!)

[Syn7]

lol. Yeah, it did.

I'm making lasagne. It's all about that thin layer of ricotta!

Aw yeah, now you're even more hungry!

[Syn7]

LOL. How much time have you put into this thread in the past 6 months?

I'd say, you put in many hours of "work" while I was out training. Surely you're not suggesting that I'm the one who's obsessed with sorting that "mess" out? Like it or not, you're a ****ing trainwreck, and likely a fat little teenager who I'd kick the crap out of in 5 seconds or less #or snatch to the ground with a single-leg in 5 seconds or less#. No doubt you have the five fingers of death with all the typing you do, but they're QWERTY deadly only on webboards.

Yeah, cause it takes up so much of my time to toss out a paragraph while I'm multi tasking on three other webboards related to my interests, making dinner, watching TV and dealing with familial obligations. What's funny is that I really don't give it much attention at all and I'm still making my point. Not that I expect any sort of acquiescence from you and yours. I'm not here for you, I'm here for me. This is all just another exercise after all. You have a narrow definition of training.

Whattup with the predictions, son? You should actually read my posts if you're gonna try and create profile. If you have read my posts and still think I'm a fat teen, you are beyond simple. All the clues are there, you just don't seem to be seeing them. But for the record I've already established my weight. And I totally dated myself when I posted those lyrics.


Another 30 seconds of my time. Do the math. Spread it over the timeframe and you will see just how much time I actually give you people. :rolleyes: Pretty simple equation, but I'll let you work that out on your own.

[hskwarrior]

lol. Yeah, it did.

I'm making lasagne. It's all about that thin layer of ricotta!

Aw yeah, now your even more hungry!

lasange is awesome. the only thing is i hate red sauce. love the alfredo and make everything with it. hahaha. you should try my alfredo sauce sloppy joes over buttermilk bisquits. its a weight gainer but its SOOOOO good.

[kwaichang]

Why dont you show us a form of your skill as a M/A . There is that simple enough for YOU. Or are you just a talker ? KC

[hskwarrior]

Why dont you show us a form of your skill as a M/A . There is that simple enough for YOU. Or are you just a talker ? KC

when are YOU gonna post one? don't ask if you ain't willin to put up

[kwaichang]

same thing with mexican food. you want the good stuff? go to the little hole in the wall place. **** im hungry right now. i could really go for some Shaolin Do-nuts. ( i know that sounded gay. so what! i am)Yep and you live in San francisco right Gay capital of the world. No more explanation needed. KC

[kwaichang]

U2 put up or shut up. Do 5 animal if you arent eating bisquits at this time. KC

[hskwarrior]

U2 put up or shut up. Do 5 animal if you arent eating bisquits at this time. KC

i got sh1t all day. chicken sh1t. i know you're afraid that your form will get torn to shreads because you really ain't that good with gung fu. karate maybe. kung fu.....i'm overly skeptical.

[hskwarrior]

Yep and you live in San francisco right Gay capital of the world. No more explanation needed. KC

you forever spout misinformation huh? it must be a shaolin do cult thing.

here you go.... your wackness. proof you are stupid.

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2012/01/the_advocate_salt_lake_city_san_francisco.php

[kwaichang]

yep ur right im not that good , I am humble about my skills, " strong talk for a one eyed fat man". KC

[hskwarrior]

yep ur right im not that good , I am humble about my skills, " strong talk for a one eyed fat man". KC

one eye? are you thinking of my peenoose man? its not that type of party, sister.

i'd mix hands with you anyday. i promise you would change your opinion about fat people. LOL

i love SUCKAS like YOU who think because i'm over fed that i must be slow and weak. thats EXACTLY what i want you to believe. just don't blink. your line of vision may change from horizontal to vertical in the blink of an eye.

attention: i would take being fat, pimply, and have the tiniest peenoose on Earth ANYDAY than to ever be related to anything remotely close to being a part of Shaolin Do. not only isthe system bullsh1t, it seems many of the students are still as dumb as day one. fakkin kuntree bumpkins

[Syn7]

lasange is awesome. the only thing is i hate red sauce. love the alfredo and make everything with it. hahaha. you should try my alfredo sauce sloppy joes over buttermilk bisquits. its a weight gainer but its SOOOOO good.

You can make lasagne with a white sauce or some variation. Doesn't have to be alfredo, but that could work. Alot of veggie and chicken lasagne uses a white sauce. Same with pizza.

[hskwarrior]

You can make lasagne with a white sauce or some variation. Doesn't have to be alfredo, but that could work. Alot of veggie and chicken lasagne uses a white sauce. Same with pizza.

i love white sauce pizza. well that was when i was eating pizza. once i found out how many caleries each slice was.....good bye pizza

[hskwarrior]

yep ur right im not that good , I am humble about my skills, " strong talk for a one eyed fat man". KC

i could do a form better than you blindfolded, 100 lbs heavier than i am now, and on my death bed. what separates me from you is i can fight using my gung fu. you're just a performer. a bad dancer.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Steeles that essentially say "Thanks for your cash donation" are hardly evidence of Shaolin co-opting anything from anyone who buys one.

But it is evidence that Shaolin is for sale. All you have to do is pay them enough. Not sure how this helps the sacredness of the generic "shaolin" terminology for MA. If I can erect a steele for enough cash which says that I created the super secret shaolin formula for solving male-pattern baldness, and then sell that formula, seems to me that shaolin endorses the thing even if it only does so because I donate some cash to the state-appointed bureaucrats...I mean, monks.


I mean, it wasn't so long ago that SD and CSC school owners were telling people Sin The' had a statue of himself erected at Shaolin....


That's actually pretty funny.:D Never heard that one, but I wouldn't doubt that someone said it.

But considering that very few people talk about GM Sin, and most have never met/seen him, I wouldn't credit the influence of that story too much if I were you. Most students are there to learn self-defense / kung fu, not to study Chinese culture and engage in ancestor worship.

I think one of the misconceptions people have about SD students is that

1) Students flock to the schools to learn not just martial arts, but SIN THE's super secret martial arts.
2) Anyone assumes that there is the right "shaolin" and the wrong "shaolin" when walking through the doors---or even that they all know what "shaolin" is.
3) Students assume that a punch or kick is only legitimate if some Chinese guy that a bunch of kung fu "professionals" agree was once good--whether or not he ever tested his skills in a ring or in combat--taught that punch or kick to someone directly.
4) They believe that a sequence of punches, kicks, and throws is special because you can trace that sequence to the aforementioned ubiquitous Chinese dude whom the kung fu regulatory guilds approve of.
5) They all believe that students should worship their kung fu ancestors like gods incarnate, rather than focusing on sweeps, throws, punches, kicks, locks, and techniques.
6) They will be convinced that everything they learned is crap if only you can prove that the founder of their system is not a god incarnate, and that they should seek a cult of ancestors in a rival school which has greater empirical value as the regulatory-guild-approved MA. After all, if your cult of ancestors is "shaolin" approved, then you're in the right cult.

It's all ridiculous nonsense, of course.

[Syn7]

Yeah, I'm lucky that I don't have that problem. I eat good whole foods that I have prepared from scratch. Calorie intake is a non-issue for me. As long as they are good calories, I'm good with it. In fact, as of late I have been purposely increasing my intake. Same foods, just more of it. But then food is more of a chore for me than for most. I don't really do the comfort food thang, I have ganja for that. And when I get the munchies I just dive into the same foods I normally eat. Can't remember the last time I ate a chocolate bar or a bag of chips. YEARS! Once in a while I'll eat fast food just cause I'm hungry and it's the only food available. It's not an indulgence tho, I usually can't even finish it. It's all sugar and hydrogenated oils. Nasty sh1t!

You can make a low calorie pizza. Won't taste like a Chicago deep dish tho.

[hskwarrior]

Most students are there to learn self-defense / kung fu, not to study Chinese culture and engage in ancestor worship.

i don't see kung fu in shaolin do!

[hskwarrior]

Yeah, I'm lucky that I don't have that problem. I eat good whole foods that I have prepared from scratch. Calorie intake is a non-issue for me. As long as they are good calories, I'm good with it. In fact, as of late I have been purposely increasing my intake. Same foods, just more of it. But then food is more of a chore for me than for most. I don't really do the comfort food thang, I have ganja for that. And when I get the munchies I just dive into the same foods I normally eat. Can't remember the last time I ate a chocolate bar or a bag of chips. YEARS! Once in a while I'll eat fast food just cause I'm hungry and it's the only food available. It's not an indulgence tho, I usually can't even finish it. It's all sugar and hydrogenated oils. Nasty sh1t!

You can make a low calorie pizza. Won't taste like a Chicago deep dish tho.

dang, you still get the munchies from it? i'm passed that long ago. i remember two things that were awesome about ganja. food tasted so much better and you can get lost in music. i miss those days. time to clean out and start over i guess hahaha

[Shaolin Wookie]

i don't see kung fu in shaolin do!

I don't see kung fu in HAkka southern styles either, or SPM. Doesn't mean it's not there.;) My White Monkey STP in my sig looks better than some Seven Star that I've seen on youtube--or at least as good as some mediocre ones. And hell, it looks much better now than in 2009. I see waist-chopping, hook sweeps, jade ring stances, etc. These aren't kung fu?

GM Sin taught these forms back in the 80s, I think. And I have a video of him instructing the form, which I was given as a reference note after learning the form from my teacher. I've never thought much of GM Sin's demos, to be honest, but he definitely has the mechanics down for mantis in that video.

Or does that form not count at all?

I could put up a newer version of the form in a while--not sure when--that'll put that one to shame. It wouldn't help your case, I think.

[Syn7]

Lol. It was a joke, but I do wonder... If shaolin temple teaches everything nowadays and erects stones even to SD, then where's the line? What is shaolin?

No it wasn't. You just feel dumb because you are smart enough to realize that what you said was ridiculous.

It's no secret that todays Shaolin temple is a sad sad joke of what it was. It's a PR tool now, funded by the tourism ministry and the capitalist ventures that are nuthugging. It would be cool to go have a look and walk the grounds, but don't mistake it for something deep and meaningful. It's a heritage site. Like old buildings in your city, but it doesn't mean that what is inside them is authentic to the period represented by the facade.

[Syn7]

And where does it say a statue Of Sin The ????? KC You exagerate i see!!!!!!!!!!

What is wrong with you? He even quoted the comment for you? I'm starting to think you really are a simpleton. Before I thought you were just below average, now I'm thinking that was far too generous.

[Syn7]

U2 put up or shut up. Do 5 animal if you arent eating bisquits at this time. KC

Frank has a ton of clips of him and his students online. He's been pretty open about who he is, what shape he is in and what his experience is.

[wenshu]

I mistakenly thought that it was common knowledge at this point that The Shaolin Temple itself is just a facade.

The traditional Shaolin cultural heritage is still practiced, just usually not in the temple itself.

[wenshu]

I am humble about my skills


and if what I learned from SD alows my already awesome skills to improve then that is fine. What ever i use to kick ur butt is good right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQp-qX2OIZs

This weekend I'll even post some crappy form work.

I'm going to make you choke on your own words until you love me.

[Syn7]

Which one would you be?

[wenshu]

The ugly one.

:11

[hskwarrior]

The ugly one.

:11

no, you're not ugly bro. you're effin FUGLY!!!!!!

[goju]

i got sh1t all day. chicken sh1t. i know you're afraid that your form will get torn to shreads because you really ain't that good with gung fu. karate maybe. kung fu.....i'm overly skeptical.

Dont expect anything from KC.He kept saying he was going to be in my neighborhood to spar and then kept frequently changing his mind every time the date got near. Hes just a tease.:D

[hskwarrior]

Dont expect anything from KC.He kept saying he was going to be in my neighborhood to spar and then kept frequently changing his mind every time the date got near. Hes just a tease.

oh well. kinda figured that. too bad. he's always gonna fall short of glory :(

[Empty_Cup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQp-qX2OIZs

This weekend I'll even post some crappy form work.

I'm going to make you choke on your own words until you love me.

:eek: this looks like judo so it couldn't be kung fu! It must be some kind of kungajudo :rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

No it wasn't. You just feel dumb because you are smart enough to realize that what you said was ridiculous.

Right, because I fully intend to "create" a hybrid BJJ, Silat, SD, Capoeira form, and then market the thing as "shaolin.":rolleyes: Hundred bucks says you didn't read the post. Or wait, let me bring that down to 20 cents, since you're less than a two-bit troll.


It's no secret that todays Shaolin temple is a sad sad joke of what it was.

So you agree, cool.


It's a PR tool now, funded by the tourism ministry and the capitalist ventures that are nuthugging.

Um.....it's regulated by the government, overseen by its ministers, and the government basically runs the whole charade.

And this means it's capitalist?

Methinks you don't know the difference between socialism and capitalism. I think you wanted the term "shallow commercialism," which is often the result of government attempts to mimic capitalism, since government enterprises always run a deficit and burueacrats get desperate for cash....and quick.

So they start selling business licenses en masse, erecting cheap housing, holding down rents (which discourages new building, since profits are limited), and basically exploiting the area. Right....that's capitalism, because everyone tries to invest in depreciating properties....L O ****ing L.:p If the government is involved, don't be surprised when the flies start to surround it's "produce." Hence the 1000 MA schools in the neighboring city--Dengfeng or whatever it is.

The best heritage sites in the US are privately owned. It's the government-run ventures that have ticket booths, refreshment stands, and 1000 handicap access toilets every 100 yards (to comply with other regulations, you see).


It would be cool to go have a look and walk the grounds, but don't mistake it for something deep and meaningful. It's a heritage site. Like old buildings in your city, but it doesn't mean that what is inside them is authentic to the period represented by the facade.

Cool, again we agree. "Shaolin" is a facade, and its residency in a place of martial arts authority (granted by a government bureau) does not make it authentic. I'm not saying SD is authentic. I'm saying the name "shaolin" doesn't mean much anymore, since Shaolin temple teaches basically everything.....including "shaolin groundfighting." LOL. It's a term that's as generic as "kung fu," and if it denotes anything, it's that the martial artist doing "shaolin" is wearing an orange jumpsuit.

So what is "shaolin" nowadays?

[Shaolin Wookie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQp-qX2OIZs

This weekend I'll even post some crappy form work.

I'm going to make you choke on your own words until you love me.

That's actually pretty good...and it's a ton of fun. We do the same thing in jiujitsu, we just don't stop when grounded. I notice that shuai jiao practitioners differ only from BJJ in that they often use their hands to control one knee. Hey.....we do that in SD, too.;)

I've never understood this about SJ, though....why do you guys go through so much trouble to bend over and try to pick someone up when you can shoot for singles and doubles from your knee and utilize leverage? Even in Harimau (silat), they shoot from a single knee and use an elbow on the hip or knee to leverage the opponent, controlling his other foot with a hand.

I run similar drills when I volunteer to teach lower belt SD classes. WAlk up, throw a combo. Defender dodges, counters, and sweeps. Attacker tries to resist. The best way to utilize our short forms, fronts sweeps, backsweeps, chinna, and throws--the core curriculum. Nothing fancy, just results. And then they have a bit to wrestle--no punches and kicks, so they can focus on chinna.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Is there a rule in Shuai Jiao that you can't throw a rear naked choke or go to your knee for the takedown? Just wondering.

[kwaichang]

worst looking Shuai Jao I have ever witnessed sorry it took me so long to get back I was throwing up. as far as Goju I had intended to get there But I am on the east side and he is in Denver I think , hey only 1500 miles " in the Neighborhood sure". KC;) BTW Sarcasm ever heard of it as far as skill is concerned,. :D

[wenshu]

:eek: this looks like judo so it couldn't be kung fu! It must be some kind of kungajudo :rolleyes:

Shuai Jiao predates Judo by, oh, I don't know, several thousand years.


Is there a rule in Shuai Jiao that you can't throw a rear naked choke or go to your knee for the takedown? Just wondering.

Dropping to a knee will cost you a point.

There is one exception that I know of but it isn't related to any bao tui techniques. In the case of Xiao De He (similar to Judo's Kouchi Gari) you're allowed to drop to a knee without losing a point.

Headlocks are ok but you're not allowed to grab your other hand or arm to lock it in.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Shuai Jiao predates Judo by, oh, I don't know, several thousand years.



Dropping to a knee will cost you a point.

There is one exception that I know of but it isn't related to any bao tui techniques. In the case of Xiao De He (similar to Judo's Kouchi Gari) you're allowed to drop to a knee without losing a point.

Headlocks are ok but you're not allowed to grab your other hand or arm to lock it in.

Don't mind KC, not that you would anyways. That was a video of a classroom drill. SJ isn't "pretty" because opponents resist, which makes it difficult. Even with resistance, though, I could see your techniques (whichver one of the fugly guys you were). It was actually a good video of what is probably an average class that showed the skills of your teacher and your classmates in a drill setting.

Much respect.:cool:

What style of kung fu do you do outside of SJ, if you decide to post a vid?

[kwaichang]

Dont Mind me I am just a guy who has seen the Grand mastr of SJ perform techniques when he was alive. Dont mind me. KC

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQp-qX2OIZs

This weekend I'll even post some crappy form work.

I'm going to make you choke on your own words until you love me.

Is that a samurai sword on the wall in the background? :eek:

[Crushing Step]

My White Monkey STP in my sig looks better than some Seven Star that I've seen on youtube--or at least as good as some mediocre ones.

Your form looks like a karate guy doing kung fu, which is what I expect of anything coming from a SD school.

BYTT is a widely practiced form in many styles of mantis. But what you perceive as awesome and powerful, better than 7 star guys, is the karate-like adherance to "powerful" movements that are in fact choppy, disconnected, and contrary to the actual teaching of that form.

On the plus side, it is good to see that SD was teaching a legit mantis form. On the other hand, this is also widely available enough to have been pulled from a video or a book, I wouldn't give SD much credit unless you could show me a mantis sifu in your lineage. Which you can't.

[Judge Pen]

I can vouch for KC. He can't type, but he can fight.

[wenshu]

"Shaolin" is a facade, and its residency in a place of martial arts authority (granted by a government bureau) does not make it authentic. I'm not saying SD is authentic. I'm saying the name "shaolin" doesn't mean much anymore, since Shaolin temple teaches basically everything.....including "shaolin groundfighting." LOL. It's a term that's as generic as "kung fu," and if it denotes anything, it's that the martial artist doing "shaolin" is wearing an orange jumpsuit.

So what is "shaolin" nowadays?

Shaolin is a very distinctive set of Northern Chinese martial arts taught in the region that surrounds the Shaolin Temple. It's hardly generic and it doesn't just mean everything. It's "authority" comes from it's place in Chinese cultural heritage, that's what the government is selling. The government didn't grant it, they're exploiting it.

What's with the kindergarten playground moral justification?

"If they can call it Shaolin why can't I?"

"Timmy made up Shaolin ground fighting so it's ok if I call this mess here Shaolin too."

Call it Shaolin all you want but people who know better are going to **** all over it.

[Judge Pen]

Shuai Jiao predates Judo by, oh, I don't know, several thousand years.



Dropping to a knee will cost you a point.

There is one exception that I know of but it isn't related to any bao tui techniques. In the case of Xiao De He (similar to Judo's Kouchi Gari) you're allowed to drop to a knee without losing a point.

Headlocks are ok but you're not allowed to grab your other hand or arm to lock it in.

I'm curious, what is the reason that dropping to a knee is disfavored in SJ techniques?

[kwaichang]

Hey I type a blazin 16 words a minute. What chu talkin bout willis. KC thanks JP I have lost 24 # now when I get down another 20 I will be in fightin shape and ready to rumble. KC:)

[Judge Pen]

Hey I type a blazin 16 words a minute. What chu talkin bout willis. KC thanks JP I have lost 24 # now when I get down another 20 I will be in fightin shape and ready to rumble. KC:)

KC, with typing and fighting it's about the accuracy not the speed. :D

[wenshu]

I'm curious, what is the reason that dropping to a knee is disfavored in SJ techniques?

It's only disfavored inasmuch as it will cost you a point in competition.

If the rules changed so would the game. It's all about context, something Shaolin Do fails to grasp on a fundamental level.

[wenshu]

Is that a samurai sword on the wall in the background? :eek:

Not our space we just rent from a Taiji school, there's also a western style broad sword on the wall.



I can vouch for KC. He can't type, but he can fight.

Well let's see it then. He wants to call people out to post footage he better man the **** up.


Dont Mind me I am just a guy who has seen the Grand mastr of SJ perform techniques when he was alive. Dont mind me. KC

You watched something once? Wow. I'm over. ****ing. whelmed. You're obviously an expert of the highest caliber.

Which is impressive for a developmentally disabled 12 year old girl.

[kwaichang]

Did I say once sorry I ve only trained in TCMA and SD for around 41 years. seen quite a bit in that time. Jhoon Rhee , and others. Longer than u have been alive . BTW punk watch you language . KC:eek:

[wenshu]

Did I say once sorry I ve only trained in TCMA and SD for around 41 years. seen quite a bit in that time. Jhoon Rhee , and others. Longer than u have been alive . BTW punk watch you language . KC:eek:

Still waiting sweetheart.

dont be scurrr'd

[kwaichang]

I dont want you to learn my secret SD forms and techniques cause then you would be pretty good. Cause you aint now. But I might put somethin up one day. whan I can I dont have any right now. I will get with JP on that he is close. KC:p

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's only disfavored inasmuch as it will cost you a point in competition.

If the rules changed so would the game. It's all about context, something Shaolin Do fails to grasp on a fundamental level.

Do u do any groundwork? Only asking bc I'd be able to counter every one of those throws to wind up in an advantageous position. Competition is what it is, I know. Bjj has competition rules, but they wouldn't stop me form choking out som shuai jiao cats

[Shaolin Wookie]

SJ reminds me of high school wrestling. Too many rules, and action stops way too early. From a martial perspective, I mean. Not denigrating the art

But if I drop all my weight to one knee for a single leg, none of this techniques are worth a ****. Which is why I don't see the point of SJ outside of competition

[sean_stonehart]

Do u do any groundwork? Only asking bc I'd be able to counter every one of those throws to wind up in an advantageous position. Competition is what it is, I know. Bjj has competition rules, but they wouldn't stop me form choking out som shuai jiao cats

Careful Wookie... there are SJ people here in ATL that might (or might not?) beg to differ.

One thing to remember is there's always somebody. You don't know about those guys. I'm sure there's some kind of levels involved & we could be seeing a beginner/intermediate level class. We don't know... you don't know.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Careful Wookie... there are SJ people here in ATL that might (or might not?) beg to differ.

One thing to remember is there's always somebody. You don't know about those guys. I'm sure there's some kind of levels involved & we could be seeing a beginner/intermediate level class. We don't know... you don't know.

I know lin's guys in Atlanta are supposed to be great. Ive been invited many times to practice with tjem bit i work diring their meet timea. But I'm talking mechanics. The holds are too high and they can't stop anyone who drops all his weight to one knee. If they do ground work then they'd stand a chance. They'd all have to stand lower and have different holds to protect the shot, which negates most of SJ


Test it. Have someone grab you and resist. Then drop hard to one knee and seize a leg. Now drive your shoulder into the knee an dpull backwards. It's leverage, and its hard to stop .

[Shaolin Wookie]

Also the first technique we saw in harimau

[sean_stonehart]

You missed the point of my comment Wook.

Have fun.

[wenshu]

SJ reminds me of high school wrestling. Too many rules, and action stops way too early. From a martial perspective, I mean. Not denigrating the art

But if I drop all my weight to one knee for a single leg, none of this techniques are worth a ****. Which is why I don't see the point of SJ outside of competition


Do u do any groundwork? Only asking bc I'd be able to counter every one of those throws to wind up in an advantageous position. Competition is what it is, I know. Bjj has competition rules, but they wouldn't stop me form choking out som shuai jiao cats

I train mma too and the main thing I have difficulty transitioning to is the lack of grip fighting. Any advantageousness of the level change allowed by dropping to a knee is nullified when I am controlling you with grip fighting in the first place.

BJJ takedowns share some of the same dependency and mechanics of grip fighting compared to no gi wrestling that Shuai Jiao does.

We're not Shaolon Do, we understand the importance of context, if chokes and ground work are in play we have no problem adjusting.

Your overconfidence is unjustified.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Probably did, lol.

SJ is sound against a striker. And no doubt most probably cross train. But mechanics are mechanics. There's a reason the art won't allow knee work. It virtually negates the art, and the art rprohibits valid counters

[wenshu]

But mechanics are mechanics. There's a reason the art won't allow knee work. It virtually negates the art, and the art rprohibits valid counters

You're straight up wrong.

You're making assumptions based on a narrow sample of free sparring footage. For instance almost all of our techniques when executed cleanly finish with a dominant position.

BJJ isn't exactly the best place to learn takedowns in the first place. Ground fighting? Absolutely, but it's common knowledge in MMA that BJJ takedowns aren't all that.

[Shaolin Wookie]

You're straight up wrong.

You're making assumptions based on a narrow sample of free sparring footage. For instance almost all of our techniques when executed cleanly finish with a dominant position.

BJJ isn't exactly the best place to learn takedowns in the first place. Ground fighting? Absolutely, but it's common knowledge in MMA that BJJ takedowns aren't all that.

So how exactly do you stop a single leg shot? Most basic bjj takedown, and one used all the time in mma with predictable results. Be specific


Grips or no grips. If I drop to one knee, you'd have to hold all my weight to stop me form dropping to a knee. I'm 180 and nearly all muscle. You think you can hold me up and execute a counter when I've got your leg and am driving a shoulder to the mat?

I can execute those throws if someone wants to remain standing , but I can't hold up the weight of anyone who drops to a knee for a shot, gi or no. I'd be bent over, he'd have his weight lower, and my holds would be useless.

[Shaolin Wookie]

You're straight up wrong.

You're making assumptions based on a narrow sample of free sparring footage. For instance almost all of our techniques when executed cleanly finish with a dominant position.

BJJ isn't exactly the best place to learn takedowns in the first place. Ground fighting? Absolutely, but it's common knowledge in MMA that BJJ takedowns aren't all that.

Not attacking you. Just talking ma

[MasterKiller]

So how exactly do you stop a single leg shot? Most basic bjj takedown, and one used all the time in mma with predictable results.

Technically, the "shot" is a wrestling takedown, and pretty much all defenses to it come from wrestling. The BJJ answer to takedowns is almost always "pull guard."

[MasterKiller]

Grips or no grips. If I drop to one knee, you'd have to hold all my weight to stop me form dropping to a knee.

Underhook/overhook to keep you from dropping and turn you to redirect your energy.

[MasterKiller]

BJJ takedowns share some of the same dependency and mechanics of grip fighting compared to no gi wrestling that Shuai Jiao does.

Word. Take the Gi away, and some legit BJJ guys have no clue.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Underhook/overhook to keep you from dropping and turn you to redirect your energy.

Exactly. From there shuai jiao would be valuable. You can get a good position with double unders, and maybe even establish a base for a throw if he stands up. But if you don't defend that shot from every tie up, then you'll wind up down on your back from the get go. And most holds wont allow you to stay low enough to defend it and still do shuai jiao.

[MasterKiller]

Exactly. From there shuai jiao would be valuable. You can get a good position with double unders, and maybe even establish a base for a throw if he stands up. But if you don't defend that shot from every tie up, then you'll wind up down on your back from the get go. And most holds wont allow you to stay low enough to defend it and still do shuai jiao.

Nobody shoots from the tie up. There's not enough space to generate the momentum needed to drive through. You take shots from an arms length away, generally.

You can do a leg/ankle pick from a tie up, but nobody really shoots from that range.

[Old Noob]

Nobody shoots from the tie up. There's not enough space to generate the momentum needed to drive through. You take shots from an arms length away, generally.

You can do a leg/ankle pick from a tie up, but nobody really shoots from that range.

You can shoot from a tie up, particularly if you're going for the single leg and want to get it and come back up with it.

In any case, you're right, the defenses are from wrestling. Sprawl and cross face. I love the cross face.

[Drake]

Funny thing is, people here talk so much ****, but you all still scream like dying pigs when I pick you up and use your fragile little bodies to smash furniture.

[Lucas]

I scream like a dying horse, thank you very much.

[MasterKiller]

You can shoot from a tie up, particularly if you're going for the single leg and want to get it and come back up with it. Yeah, that's what I said. Ankle/Leg pick.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Nobody shoots from the tie up. There's not enough space to generate the momentum needed to drive through. You take shots from an arms length away, generally.

You can do a leg/ankle pick from a tie up, but nobody really shoots from that range.

Right, and if u pick up , then dDrive your shoulder down and slide back or down on one knee, u can usually ground them no problem. You can even rotate. Quite hard to stop with any grip.

[MasterKiller]

Right, and if u pick up , then dDrive your shoulder down and slide back or down on one knee, u can usually ground them no problem. You can even rotate. Quite hard to stop with any grip.

That's called "running the pipe" in wrestling.

Too bad you don't think much of wrestling. :p

[hskwarrior]

That's called "running the pipe"

mannnn, i'm known to RUN SOME PIPE my dayam self. :D

i'll run it, throw it, lay it and SLANG it!!!

[MasterKiller]

mannnn, i'm known to SMOKE SOME PIPE my dayam self. :D


Fixed it for you. ;)

[hskwarrior]

Fixed it for you.

thank bro. nothin wrong with that either. :cool: at least i'm LEGAL. :D

my medicine!!!

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/10423_137586332731_7721879_n.jpg

[Shaolin Wookie]

That's called "running the pipe" in wrestling.

Too bad you don't think much of wrestling. :p

Bjj and wrestling are the same to me. I don't draw a line between them. My bjj instructor was an mma fighter. He didn't think much of drawing that line either

[bawang]

Bjj and wrestling are the same to me. I don't draw a line between them. My bjj instructor was an mma fighter. He didn't think much of drawing that line either

bjj and wretlng are night and day. you would know this if shaolin do didnt rape your mind.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.deviantart.com/download/138042899/Mind_Rape_by_Bugsey58.jpg

[MasterKiller]

Bjj and wrestling are the same to me. I don't draw a line between them. My bjj instructor was an mma fighter. He didn't think much of drawing that line either

Except BJJ uses a Gi and has way different rules than MMA or Wrestling. So, if you don't understand and adjust for that, you are basically on a one way trip to here:

http://xaxor.com/images/wtf-public-signs-part5-/wtf-public-signs-part5-12.jpg


Maybe you should use the term "grappling" instead of BJJ.

[MasterKiller]

bjj and wretlng are night and day. you would know this if shaolin do didnt rape your mind.

This is where Bawang lives.

http://xaxor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/more-wtf-signs-part8-18.jpg

[Shaolin Wookie]

Except BJJ uses a Gi and has way different rules than MMA or Wrestling. So, if you don't understand and adjust for that, you are basically on a one way trip to here:

http://xaxor.com/images/wtf-public-signs-part5-/wtf-public-signs-part5-12.jpg


Maybe you should use the term "grappling" instead of BJJ.

Probably. That's what I meant anyways, but grappling is misleading when some arts that grapple, like SJ, presuppose that both guys want to remain standing

[Old Noob]

Yeah, that's what I said. Ankle/Leg pick.

I got you now; misunderstood.

[Orion Paximus]

I went to a school that advertised teaching "Grappling arts" i was severely disappointed when a bunch of sweaty dudes were just rolling around on the ground with each other. There wasn't a grappling hook in sight :(

[hskwarrior]

http://gifs.gifbin.com/6401703g69.gif

i think i found a lost lineage holder of Shaolin Do.

http://funny.desivalley.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/oh-my-god-funny-face-picture.jpg

[Syn7]

:eek: this looks like judo so it couldn't be kung fu! It must be some kind of kungajudo :rolleyes:

Looks like SJ to me.

[wenshu]

some arts that grapple, like SJ, presuppose that both guys want to remain standing It doesn't.


Bjj and wrestling are the same to me. I don't draw a line between them.


Right, and if u pick up , then dDrive your shoulder down and slide back or down on one knee, u can usually ground them no problem. You can even rotate. Quite hard to stop with any grip.

You understand grappling like Shaolin Do understands Chinese gong fu.

http://i.imgur.com/k75EU.gif

http://i.imgur.com/UwqW2.gif

A Shuai Jiao player that doesn't know how to defend against the single leg is like a boxer who doesn't know how to defend against a left hook.

At this point I think maybe you are trolling in order to pivot the discussion away from your obscenely sordid Shaolin Do background.

[Syn7]

BTW punk watch you language . KC:eek:

Or what? :rolleyes: You gonna come get him? If you're such a tough guy, maybe you should just stick to that arena, clearly you aren't cutting it in this one.


So what? you are a 50 plus year old retard who has trouble displaying any sort of coherent thought? Seriously, you have the intellectual capacity of a child. Deep down, you know you aren't very smart. You can lie to us, but stop lying to yourself.

[Syn7]

thank bro. nothin wrong with that either. :cool: at least i'm LEGAL. :D

my medicine!!!

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/10423_137586332731_7721879_n.jpg

BABIES!

You need a greenhouse, playbwoy!!!

What's the strain?

My father keeps growing Sativa. I tried to learn em, he don't listen. He likes his. Stubborn old b@stard he is! Once they pass 60 the get weird on ya!:D

[Syn7]

Except BJJ uses a Gi and has way different rules than MMA or Wrestling. So, if you don't understand and adjust for that, you are basically on a one way trip to here:

Maybe you should use the term "grappling" instead of BJJ.

When I started BJJ I went No Gi right off the bat. I had the wrestling base, it just felt natural to me. When people ask I just call it all Sub Grappling. Keeps it simple. But it's still good to know the difference between the arts one proclaims to practice.

[Syn7]

It doesn't.





You understand grappling like Shaolin Do understands Chinese gong fu.

http://i.imgur.com/k75EU.gif

http://i.imgur.com/UwqW2.gif

A Shuai Jiao player that doesn't know how to defend against the single leg is like a boxer who doesn't know how to defend against a left hook.

At this point I think maybe you are trolling in order to pivot the discussion away from your obscenely sordid Shaolin Do background.


Not that I disagree with you, but that was not the single leg drive that SW was talking about. The weight distribution is quite different and the drive comes from up to down to up and hopefully back down again. There is a difference.

I like how you caught ya boy trying to turn the corner tho.

[kwaichang]

When I started BJJ I went No Gi right off the bat. I had the wrestling butt, it just felt natural to me. When people ask I just call it all Subway Grappling. Keeps it simple. But it's still good to know the difference between the arts one proclaims to practice.
Yeah syn keep on rolling boy roll on out the door. KC:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

What's the strain?


snow caps. :D

[Syn7]

Really? Of all the changes you could have made to my quote the best your lil mind could do is change one word to "butt" and add "way" to "sub"? You really are slow. What's it like being so far below average? Do you even notice?

[Syn7]

snow caps. :D

Does it smell like ginger ale?

[kwaichang]

Man you are so far below my intellect that I have to dumb things down so you can even remotely understand what i am saying . You are just a joke and I tir of your purile ways. KC

[hskwarrior]

Does it smell like ginger ale?

actually it does

[Syn7]

snow caps. :D


actually it does

Yeah, I had a clone and it just stank like ginger ale. Not my fav, but mos def it's a nice run.

[Syn7]

Man you are so far below my intellect that I have to dumb things down so you can even remotely understand what i am saying . You are just a joke and I tir of your purile ways. KC

If you say it over and over enough times, you may actually come to believe that. Although I may be giving you far more credit than I should. You may very well believe those words, and that would be even worse.

Syn 7 Up, how clever. And even after I mentioned ginger ale. It even kinda rhymes with "butt". Way to throw down.

[Syn7]

Do you mean puerile?

I call you out for having the mentality of a child and you write "purile" in defense? That's some funny sh1t. I call you a child, and your response is to call me a child, using a word you can't even spell?

I wasn't gonna go there, but after I finished making my sandwich I changed my mind.

[kwaichang]

Since you have been Dx with it yes i do. So I missed 1 letter , i was typing my 16 words a minute. Syn7up the uncola hahahaha KC

[Syn7]

Actually, the spelling "mistake" was just icing on the cake and not what I was making fun of. No wonder it seems simple to you, most of it is going right over your head. :rolleyes:

You seem to be mixing up WPM with vocab.

[wenshu]

Not that I disagree with you, but that was not the single leg drive that SW was talking about. The weight distribution is quite different and the drive comes from up to down to up and hopefully back down again. There is a difference.


This is the Shaolin Do thread; we have no use for nuance here.

Of course I know that and Ill almost certainly never find anything in SJ with exactly the same mechanics, but if people can teach 'Shaolin' ground fighting and everybody can call anything they want 'Shaolin' then I can say that a single leg is a single leg.

[Shaolin Wookie]

This one's even better...one of my favorites when someone scrambles for grips with the intention of throwing or moving for sweeps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC7UrCtjY0w

Again...SJ is a fine art, but it does presuppose that both guys want to remain standing. Its point system is premised on that fact. You can't drop to a knee to snatch a leg. You have to bend over...something that is really a waste of energy if you can drop.

There's a finer application of the knee pull that I can't recall the popular name of at the moment outside of Harimau's first seed (silat). It's so much like a single leg shot that the nuance is small, but it is different because you don't drive forward. you rotate forward and pull back. Doesn't require leverage from the side to snatch up the leg. You can drop right into it and get the knee pull. Plus, you don't have to stand up. It's just a matter of pulling back, driving your shoulder into the knee, and dropping your opponent on his ass. He can't stand, because you force him to squat.

"Running the pipe" wasn't the technique I had in mind, because you tend to remain standing up...and you've got the leg between your legs.

[Syn7]

lol. Subjectivity is a friend to all!:D

[YouKnowWho]

You can't drop to a knee to snatch a leg.

This is not true. You can drop 1 knee but not 2 knees. One point of your body besides your feet to touch the ground is OK. By dropping 1 knees, you can still maintain "mobility". By dropping both knees, your "mobility" is gone. SC is all about "maintain your mobility". Most SC guys don't like to drop their knees infront of their opponent. My teacher always said, "What kind of hero that you may call yourself if you drop your knee infront of your opponent?" In Chinese culture, only a loser drops his knee infront of a winner. Even 1 knee dropping is a sign of "weakness".

[wenshu]

This one's even better...one of my favorites when someone scrambles for grips with the intention of throwing or moving for sweeps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC7UrCtjY0w

Again...SJ is a fine art, but it does presuppose that both guys want to remain standing. Its point system is premised on that fact. You can't drop to a knee to snatch a leg. You have to bend over...something that is really a waste of energy if you can

With Shuai Jiao jackets and grip fighting the effectiveness of your single leg dimishes by at least fifty percent. Possibly more.

Sorry, the single leg is not the panacea like indefensible technique you think it is. Take Judo, I could be mistaken but I don't think single legs are considered particularly high percentage and you can practically touch the ground all you want.

On a side note: Today I have decided to study Sambo but I'm going to call it Tai Ji JuJitsu cause if Shaolin Do has taught us anything it's that you can just call anything whatever the hell you want.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think single legs are considered particularly high percentage.

But "single leg" is a good starting point. Before a beginner has developed other throws, the single leg may be the only thing that he can do. It requires the least amout of Shenfa to execute.

If you can force your opponent's leg to come into your hand, your "single leg" will move into another level. One simple example is to use inner hook (Ouchi Gari) to get your opponent's leg. Why do you want to do that for? Your 1st inner hook gets your opponent's left leg. Your 2nd inner hook get his right leg. That fall will be very hard for your opponent. It can be a end-fight throw.

[Syn7]

I knew you would come here. :D This conversation somehow drifted right into your arena!

[YouKnowWho]

I knew you would come here. :D This conversation somehow drifted right into your arena!
The Shanxi SC had published a book, "42 different way to execute single leg". I still haven't be able to locate that book yet. You can write a book about "single leg" if you include how to force your opponent's leg to come into your hand.

The "single leg" was the 1st move that I had learned in the Chinese wrestling system. I can never forget about this move.

[Syn7]

But "single leg" is a good starting point. Before a beginner has developed other throws, the single leg may be the only thing that he can do. It requires the least amout of Shenfa to execute.

It's a pretty high percentage takedown against people who don't train to defend it. You see it work all the time in street fights because they usually aren't very well trained. They have no answer. Even a sloppy one will work. Proper execution only becomes more relevant when your opponent has an answer.

[Empty_Cup]

Your form looks like a karate guy doing kung fu, which is what I expect of anything coming from a SD school.

BYTT is a widely practiced form in many styles of mantis. But what you perceive as awesome and powerful, better than 7 star guys, is the karate-like adherance to "powerful" movements that are in fact choppy, disconnected, and contrary to the actual teaching of that form.

On the plus side, it is good to see that SD was teaching a legit mantis form. On the other hand, this is also widely available enough to have been pulled from a video or a book, I wouldn't give SD much credit unless you could show me a mantis sifu in your lineage. Which you can't.

According to stories, this was the Mantis sifu at the Chung Yen school:
Je Jou (Shiao) Fu

[Syn7]

The Shanxi SC had published a book, "42 different way to execute single leg". I still haven't be able to locate that book yet. You can write a book about "single leg" if you include how to force your opponent's leg to come into your hand.

42 huh. That seems like a lot. I guess if you cover ever angle and foot position, hip position etc... the numbers would be quite high.

[bawang]

On a side note: Today I have decided to study Sambo but I'm going to call it Tai Ji JuJitsu cause if Shaolin Do has taught us anything it's that you can just call anything whatever the hell you want.

call it tang family tibetan yak kung fu


legend has that monk yue kong met a hermaphrodite who was skilled in art of grabbling. yue kong pretended to be raped by the hermaphrodite jiang yun many times and eventually secretly learned the whole system.

[YouKnowWho]

42 huh. That seems like a lot. I guess if you cover ever angle and foot position, hip position etc... the numbers would be quite high.

SC divide human body into 4 sides and 2 doors. If you use your left hand to grab the

1. outside of your opponent's right leg while move in your right leg, it's called 扣(Kou) - Knee Seize.
2. outside of your opponent's right leg while move in your leftt leg, it's called 錯(Cuo) - Crisscross.
3. inside of your opponent's left leg while move in your left leg, it's called 掏(Tao) - Inner Knee Seize.

A single leg has divided into 3 categories. The reason that SC gives different names for your "similiar" move is because you can have different follow on moves.

If you further divided it by using:

- hand only,
- 1/2 leg and 1/2 hand,
- less hand, more leg,

Since there are so many 1/2 leg and 1/2 hand moves, it further divided and 42 is not that high number if you can exhausted all possibilities.

[PalmStriker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTVDD8yLgvE

Might be disappointing to some, but Shaolin Do's Mantis Kata is traditional, authentic, and deadly. Make no doubt about it. That video is "Monkey Mantis" Moo Poo. :D

[Judge Pen]

That video is "Monkey Mantis" Moo Poo. :D

I actually agree. Except for the misuse of the mantis claws, you could have told me that form was monkey and it would be easier to see.

[hskwarrior]

if i were a shaolin donut student, i would be presenting this to my teachers and expect to be answered. i would want to know why the schools who authentically teach the styles we are teaching saying that we are not doing what we claim to be doing. i would really need some answers because if i am paying you money to learn mantis, bagua, 5 animals........you BETTER be teaching me what i'm paying for. I would hate to be paying for kung fu knock off's. (yes i've coined that phrase. kung fu knock off's......looks like the real thing but you know its fake.)

check out the comments on the video. see what i mean?




Yes this is Shawn performing this kata, I am very sorry for not replying sooner than this. I have been very busy with moving and school and the baby.

Nikki Witt 2 months ago

All Comments (12) see all
sifufrank
Respond to this video...

Kata? Mantis? Oh my oh my... I wonder if there is any way to put into words how much this video does NOT even in the slightest way represent mantis. And Kata?!?! Must be from Shaolin-Donuts.

acquiredskill 3 days ago

That looks like my good friend Shaun (sorry if its the wrong spelling of Shaun). Great technique as always, but like I said before, keep your head up! Hopefully see you soon in a Kentucky seminar my kung fu brother!

ShaolinTommy 1 year ago in playlist Shaolin-do

There seemed to be a few mantis techniques in there although most of it was just show. Unfortunately, you didn't seem to really understand what the techniques were and it looks like you were just throwing your hands around. That aside, you're movement and kicks were quite graceful and impressive.

Colin C 1 year ago

@DEATHLOCKGRIM :: Actually, this kata has a form of mantis, bird, and monkey.. See how he only uses his pointer fingers in the beginning? That shows that he is using mantis.

ClarkIsNinjaa 2 years ago

thats not mantis thats monkey nothing in that set was mantis

DEATHLOCKGRIM 2 years ago

your double smash kicks are amazing

elmoiq3 2 years ago

1 2 Next »



The highlighed and underlined area is one of my all time favorite JOKES of a comment. "See how he only uses his pointer fingers in the beginning?[U] That shows that he is using mantis". to me, it completely shows the nut has no clue beyond the shape of a hand. shaolin donuts. :(

[Lucas]

legend has that monk yue kong met a hermaphrodite who was skilled in art of grabbling. yue kong pretended to be raped by the hermaphrodite jiang yun many times and eventually secretly learned the whole system.

best post of current discussion

[-N-]

Yes this is Shawn performing this kata, I am very sorry for not replying sooner than this. I have been very busy with moving and school and the baby.

[...]

See how he only uses his pointer fingers in the beginning? That shows that he is using mantis.



The highlighed and underlined area is one of my all time favorite JOKES of a comment. "See how he only uses his pointer fingers in the beginning?[U] That shows that he is using mantis". to me, it completely shows the nut has no clue beyond the shape of a hand. shaolin donuts. :(

That is how the teacher does his Mantis hand in the gif clip too. Looks like the student is doing the ridiculous finger poking the way he was taught.

Too bad that real Mantis is about the last 3 fingers, not the 1st finger.

Both the teacher and the student show clearly that they have no concept of the fundamental usage of the Mantis claw.

They make the same mistake that we yell at beginning students about. Same like when the students have no clue on the throat lock move too.

[kwaichang]

wow interesting legend right up there with a Hairy Shaolin Kung fu man. anything is possible I guess. as far as Mantis is concerned The tang lang chien : just a aerobic filler form probably made up or a consolidation of many forms, other than the invert kick and hook stance not much mantis there. The Bong Bu is similar to other Bong Bu I have seen as well as Penetrating Hammer and the training is very detailed and excellent. where it all came from ?????I think it is good stuff . KC:D

[Lucas]

I still think the monkey beak is the best

[hskwarrior]

http://www.scaryforkids.com/pics/kappa-01.jpg

[bawang]

filler form probably made up

shaolin do admit truth

VICTORY

[hskwarrior]

shaolin do admit defeat

I WIN

this was more fun than overthrowing the Qing and restore the BAWming (aka Bawang)

[bawang]

this was more fun than overthrowing the Qing and restore the BAWming (aka Bawang)

wombat combat is superior to shaolin do.


once you learn wombat combat, you will have the strength of 10 ronnie colemans.

[Lucas]

wombat combat changed my life. it saves me from rape every day

[bawang]

wombat combat changed my life. it saves me from rape every day

what? who taught you this??? this is not authentic wombat combat

in wombat combat you must accept rape. then you can absorb the qi and nurture the spirit fetus.

[Lucas]

I learn secretly by peeking through the wall during all your rape sessions. i steal the technique and absorb the qi by watching you when you drink the tears of the fallen shaolin do student. i have the skeletal structure of a wombat combat genius

[sanjuro_ronin]

call it tang family tibetan yak kung fu


legend has that monk yue kong met a hermaphrodite who was skilled in art of grabbling. yue kong pretended to be raped by the hermaphrodite jiang yun many times and eventually secretly learned the whole system.

This is so disturbing that it is probably true !

[Lucas]

This is so disturbing that it is probably true !

bawang only tells the truth about kungfu history. he would never lie

[bawang]

I learn secretly by peeking through the wall during all your rape sessions. i steal the technique and absorb the qi by watching you when you drink the tears of the fallen shaolin do student. i have the skeletal structure of a wombat combat genius

i see potential within u. with my magic x ray vision i can see qi is pouring out of your huiyin point like golden light. you will be my speshul student. i will teach you the secrets of the system, the 36 hermaphrodite joint locks.

[Lucas]

I am honored and i would like to offer you 3 bucket of KFC all kinds extra crispy, spicy and southern style. I also give you extra large tub of mayo, sifu.

[bawang]

I am honored and i would like to offer you 3 bucket of KFC all kinds extra crispy, spicy and southern style. I also give you extra large tub of mayo, sifu.

you must go on a magical journey to obtain the legendary double down sandwich and smear it on the statue of guan gong. only then can the bai si ceremony begin.

also bring me 1 small brown rock from the grand canyon

[kwaichang]

1 I said many posts ago that that form was a Hybrid or made up form and not TangLang I said prob a Cranr type or bird form.
2 I am not currently training with anyone and may not train with SD again .
3 I will keep training in my forms of choice as I feel they have value and "real CMA" origin.
4 I have a long history in CMA and JMA, and will cont to train etc.
5 The true history and origin of SD forms will prob never be known.
6 SD is a good art and offers alot of good training, it is sad the GM The has not presented it different or called it something else instead.
7 all of this is all about a Name , much like those people who wanted to name their son Adolph Hitler. the Gov said no even though they had a right to. Much like GMT. KC:)

[bawang]

1 I said many posts ago that that form was a Hybrid or made up form and not TangLang I said prob a Cranr type or bird form.


is this the form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZP-4L8IHKQ

[GeneChing]

you must go on a magical journey to obtain the legendary double down sandwich and smear it on the statue of guan gong. only then can the bai si ceremony begin.

also bring me 1 small brown rock from the grand canyon
I'm not sure that the forum approves of such behavior. Knock it off, you two. We're all getting nervous.

[kwaichang]

Bawang, what is scary is you came up with that Vid so fast is that part of your "personal" collection. Scary very scary. KC

[Judge Pen]

Bawang, what is scary is you came up with that Vid so fast is that part of your "personal" collection. Scary very scary. KC

What are you talking about. Bawang was the writer, director, producer and star of the show.

[hskwarrior]

what? who taught you this??? this is not authentic wombat combat

he learned it from the video of Sin The doing it. Sin The claims he learned the wombat combat from a blind bat

[Lucas]

you must go on a magical journey to obtain the legendary double down sandwich and smear it on the statue of guan gong. only then can the bai si ceremony begin.

also bring me 1 small brown rock from the grand canyon

in honor of my teacher i buy helicopter. now I have the address to grand canyon kfc, im almost there texing from my smart phone. i got the rock for you but i had to battle a naked indian that was high on peyote and he got some stuff all over the rock. i dont know if i can use my choppper in the drive through, but when i get the double down i will find a statue of guan gong to smear the greatness all over.

[Lucas]

he learned it from the video of Sin The doing it. Sin The claims he learned the wombat combat from a blind bat

never! i would never learn from sin kwang the. he does not posess the true spirit of the wombat. indonesia doesnt even have wombats! plus i be he never met the colonel

[tattooedmonk]

SD students, what is / are you favorite KUNG FU KATA(s)?:cool:

[hskwarrior]

KUNG FU KATA(s)

lolololololololololololol kung fu kata..........fakkin idiot

[bawang]

I am honored and i would like to offer you 3 bucket of KFC all kinds extra crispy, spicy and southern style. I also give you extra large tub of mayo, sifu.

NO

the chicken must be original recipe, like original song shan shaolin kung fu.

you must not bring the southern chicken. it represents dirty southern cantonese kung fu. burn it.

[Syn7]

wow interesting legend right up there with a Hairy Shaolin Kung fu man. anything is possible I guess. as far as Mantis is concerned The tang lang chien : just a aerobic filler form probably made up or a consolidation of many forms, other than the invert kick and hook stance not much mantis there. The Bong Bu is similar to other Bong Bu I have seen as well as Penetrating Hammer and the training is very detailed and excellent. where it all came from ?????I think it is good stuff . KC:D

So you would use the mantis claw hand to poke? My understanding is that it's a grab. I don't practice Mantis(I know a lil spm but thats somethings else) but I know those are NOT finger jabs. Using that way is just silly. You think it's a good form? Even though you know it's just a bunch of random movements with no story?

[-N-]

So you would use the mantis claw hand to poke? My understanding is that it's a grab. I don't practice Mantis(I know a lil spm but thats somethings else) but I know those are NOT finger jabs. Using that way is just silly. You think it's a good form? Even though you know it's just a bunch of random movements with no story?

Even when the fingertips are used to attack, it's not like in their videos.

Yep, random non mantis movements with no martial context.

[-N-]

Tang Lang Chien...

Chien is dog in French. Might be a clue...

:rolleyes:

[bodhi warrior]

I learned this back in '85. The thing I don't like about the video is the kid seems to be swinging his hands around. His movements are not clear and defined. My understanding of the hook finger is it simulates holding a hook like spike in your hands.
As far as mantis forms, master Hiang teaches 4. None of them are from the popular styles of northern mantis as far as I can tell. But I've heard him say that most of the forms were from family styles.

[kwaichang]

So you would use the mantis claw hand to poke? My understanding is that it's a grab. I don't practice Mantis(I know a lil spm but thats somethings else) but I know those are NOT finger jabs. Using that way is just silly. You think it's a good form? Even though you know it's just a bunch of random movements with no story?

Maybe you should read my post again , I said what the form is I then commented on what the other mantis training and forms are. And yes the fingers can be used as a poke , I reference the mantis thread at this time. There are many hand attacks in mantis. The Mantis Claw as it is known is a seizing tech it was what I was taught originally . But The finger can be used to penetrate soft areas eyes etc. if need be. KC

[-N-]

My understanding of the hook finger is it simulates holding a hook like spike in your hands..

That is how it was demonstrated in their videos. It was clear that the focus was on the use of the first fingertip. The other 3 fingers were static/dead.

That is opposite to the way Mantis uses the fingers, whether for fingertip attack or grabbing.

[-N-]

But The finger can be used to penetrate soft areas eyes etc. if need be. KC

Mantis claw is used for raking/brushing, not poking.

And whether grabbing or eye attack, it is the last 3 fingers doing the work, not the first finger. Grab and eye attack are the same.

The videos showed last 3 fingers held rigidly. They were not doing anything useful.

[Tao Of The Fist]

This is a video of a friend of mine doing Tang Lang Chien back when we were both in Shaolin Do (I think he trains with Shi Xingwei's group now, but not sure on that). I think he was just messing around and freestyled half of it anyway, but still better than the other guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3G9VIYxGq4&feature=bf_next&list=PL9054DCCC5BDA3918

Anyway, I'm not here to bash SD, but that other video really sucked. Sorry to the other guy but sometimes I wish that the instructors had been much more strict about stuff like that.

[-N-]

This is a video of a friend of mine doing Tang Lang Chien back when we were both in Shaolin Do (I think he trains with Shi Xingwei's group now, but not sure on that). I think he was just messing around and freestyled half of it anyway, but still better than the other guy:

Ok, this one is less horrible.

[-N-]

Mantis claw is used for raking/brushing, not poking.

And whether grabbing or eye attack, it is the last 3 fingers doing the work, not the first finger. Grab and eye attack are the same.

The videos showed last 3 fingers held rigidly. They were not doing anything useful.

Another common beginner mistake/misconception is focusing on thumb and first two fingers for mantis claw.

I have to yell at the students, "THIS IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PICKING TEA LEAVES!!!"

[Empty_Cup]

Mantis claw is used for raking/brushing, not poking.

And whether grabbing or eye attack, it is the last 3 fingers doing the work, not the first finger. Grab and eye attack are the same.

The videos showed last 3 fingers held rigidly. They were not doing anything useful.

Just curious, what type of finger/grip/wrist/forearm conditioning/training do you practice?

[-N-]

Just curious, what type of finger/grip/wrist/forearm conditioning/training do you practice?

Not a whole lot currently.

We have one of those 80lb Everlast heavy bags that people complain about because the sand sinks and makes the bottom 1/3 of the bag too hard.

We do forearm strikes on the hard part after we're done with all the punching, kicking, and palm strikes. We use the bottom section for shins and palm conditioning too. Also hip, torso, and shoulder for short range "iron body" type stuff.

We do a partner exercise for mantis claw grabbing. We also have a combined forearm, shin, calf conditioning and mantis grabbing partner exercise.

We also get our grip and grabbing training when we drill our applications/combos.

Currently have a newer student thats learning a downward chopping forearm strike/block. Been giving him fast punches to counter. So his practice also conditions my forearms. I make him go until his arms are too tired and painful to continue.

I used to do a lot of finger push ups. Fingers curved like holding a large ball, not flexed backwards. 50 with all fingers, then repeat with one less finger, and repeat until all the way down to thumb and one finger. Been many years since doing that.

Also used to do mantis claw / wrist pushups.

Another "used to" is throwing/catching sand/shot bags.

Nowadays I rely on more subtle methods than conditioning. I laugh at the students and tell them they need the conditioning so that they can survive long enough to let their kung fu improve, haha.

[-N-]

Just curious, what type of finger/grip/wrist/forearm conditioning/training do you practice?

Here's some examples.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/aa_GIFSoupcom.gif

I developed an expanded series of those along with other body striking and classic Mantis close range forearm striking to drill on the heavy bag.

The goal is to be able to rebound the bag several feet with explosive short range body power while the bag is coming at you.

There's conditioning, but the main emphasis is to develop the proper full body connection.

[Empty_Cup]

Not a whole lot currently.

We have one of those 80lb Everlast heavy bags that people complain about because the sand sinks and makes the bottom 1/3 of the bag too hard.

We do forearm strikes on the hard part after we're done with all the punching, kicking, and palm strikes. We use the bottom section for shins and palm conditioning too. Also hip, torso, and shoulder for short range "iron body" type stuff.

We do a partner exercise for mantis claw grabbing. We also have a combined forearm, shin, calf conditioning and mantis grabbing partner exercise.

We also get our grip and grabbing training when we drill our applications/combos.

Currently have a newer student thats learning a downward chopping forearm strike/block. Been giving him fast punches to counter. So his practice also conditions my forearms. I make him go until his arms are too tired and painful to continue.

I used to do a lot of finger push ups. Fingers curved like holding a large ball, not flexed backwards. 50 with all fingers, then repeat with one less finger, and repeat until all the way down to thumb and one finger. Been many years since doing that.

Also used to do mantis claw / wrist pushups.

Another "used to" is throwing/catching sand/shot bags.

Nowadays I rely on more subtle methods than conditioning. I laugh at the students and tell them they need the conditioning so that they can survive long enough to let their kung fu improve, haha.


Here's some examples.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/aa_GIFSoupcom.gif

I developed an expanded series of those along with other body striking and classic Mantis close range forearm striking to drill on the heavy bag.

The goal is to be able to rebound the bag several feet with explosive short range body power while the bag is coming at you.

There's conditioning, but the main emphasis is to develop the proper full body connection.

Thanks for the post. We do a forearm conditioning partner exercise called Tang Lang Chi Sau (sp?) that looks similar to the .gif you posted but is only forearms. Cool stuff there.

So is there any other fingertip conditioning you do or used to do other than fingertip pushups?

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah, Kung fu kata! I knew you would like that!:eek::rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

there are no idiots bigger than you!

[-N-]

Thanks for the post. We do a forearm conditioning partner exercise called Tang Lang Chi Sau (sp?) that looks similar to the .gif you posted but is only forearms. Cool stuff there.

So is there any other fingertip conditioning you do or used to do other than fingertip pushups?

The forearm and striking conditioning should be hard enough to hear on the other side of the park. A lot of times, people are too casual about that. When we did conditioning, Doc Fai Wong's and Adam Hsu's students would stop what they were doing and look at us on the other side of the park.

When my teacher still had a physical school, he had buckets of sand and gravel for finger training. That was before my time.

I don't think it's necessary to do a lot of specialized fingertip training for Mantis. Mantis claw is not about brute force toughness. More useful is speed, relaxation, and sensitivity, all coordinated with full body connection.

Too much isolated specific training can give you a tool that is not very useful.

[hskwarrior]

there are no idiots bigger than you!

yeah yeah. kungarate fool. shaolin do-nut! i understand you anger. you really wanted to learn kung fu, thought you were actually learning it cause the guy is asian and you got dooped. hornswoggled. PLAYED!

you can call me SIFU, i will teach you real kung fu. i will also teach you how to be a man instead of a zombified shaolin wannabe nit wit.

ya mom just told me to tell you to stop acting like a pus$ified b1tchmade busta ass rump ranger. be a man ya biatch.

[tattooedmonk]

yeah yeah. kungarate fool. shaolin do-nut! i understand you anger. you really wanted to learn kung fu, thought you were actually learning it cause the guy is asian and you got dooped. hornswoggled. PLAYED!

you can call me SIFU, i will teach you real kung fu. i will also teach you how to be a man instead of a zombified shaolin wannabe nit wit.

ya mom just told me to tell you to stop acting like a pus$ified b1tchmade busta ass rump ranger. be a man ya biatch.WOW, you are full of pi$$ and vinager today.

I am not angry or anything you believe I am.

I happen to belong to a few reputable organizations and have legitimate connections.

you are full of sh!t and so are many of your nut riders.

I have been to many authentic and legitimate CMA functions with Sin The , and not one person has said anything to his face or behind his back about his system/ style. in a negative way. He knows and hangs out with many of them on occasion, just like anyone else.

what you have done is taken a mole hill and tried to turn it into a mountain. these little bits of video and written text, etc are not what you claim it to be. if you got your head out of your a$$ you would have a better perspective of things, rather than a constant view of your colon.

I am waiting to see one of you blowhards walk into any SD ST CSC school or any other martial arts school for that matter, and do exactly what you say here, doubt it will happen.

go crawl back into the hole you came out from.

you make a lot of assumptions and blanket statements without having any fact whats so ever. you are like a bleeding c-unt. :D have a nice day , rag man.

[hskwarrior]

http://crayfisher.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/stfu.jpg

[Snipsky]

oh jajajajajaja look.

http://www.teecraze.com/images/popthreadz/stfu.jpg

[One student]

the original objective of my "CREATING" a form was out of my own desire to see if i had the ability to put together my own form. perhaps for my personal demonstration at various celebrations. however, my students saw the worth of this form and so do others. its my own experience with Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.

the objective to create forms in order to fool the unsuspecting white and black people of the midwest where a chinese person was a rare sight is a dispicable way of exploiting gung fu. i don't care who agree's or disagree's. Sin The is wrong for what he did. PERIOD.

if you are under the assumption that a form will make your fighting skills any better then you are sadly mistaken. sure there is a quality test of the techniques found within the form. and yes i have people who are emailing me regularly asking if i have the whole set on tape because they would want to learn it.

does this answer your question?



the ability to prevail in a fight never never never.....did i say NEVER depends on the style or form top win the fight for them. it depends on your personal fighting ability

But isn't it true that learning forms, if practiced properly, can help build the skills that can lead to being a better fighter? Strength, speed, stability, balance, endurance, coordination, etc.? I think I was a better fighter because I did forms, then free practice (like sparring techniques and bag work), then light sparring, then contact sparring, etc. True, if not practiced properly its no more than exercise, but it doesn't have to be "just exercise," does it?

Of course one can be a good fighter too never having touched a formal "form" (aka, Jeet Kune Do, Ninjitsu, BJJ, etc.). But form practice is not a waste of time, even if you want to be a better actual fighter. Although yes there are forms champions who could get beat to pieces by professional fighters or even street fighters. But there are also forms practitioners who are better fighters because of their forms practice. Isn't that why (at least partially) forms practice has been handed down, and is a common thread in most TMA -- including CLF?

[One student]

Leung Ting did a book on 8 Drunken Immortals, a video too...

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/kungfu/collbk_drunkboxing.htm

It's titled "The Drunkard Kung Fu"..it demonstrates 8DI...is this the form you mean?

There are several vcds available on Meteor Fist forms; and I'm sure I've seen a book as well...although I expect there are several variations...not sure which one you are referring to.

Thank you for that reference. I have heard of "8 Drunken Immortals" being famous CMA sets, but not sure if one mention is same as the other (or if it is the same as the SD set). Like if one sees "Karate," or "Tiger Style," etc., but its not always the same as another reference of the same thing. I'm sorry but I can't tell from the description of the books/videos in your link if it is the same forms. We'd need to see the titles of the forms maybe, or maybe pieces of it, or publication dates (SD first started teaching 8DI in early-mid 80's). Of course then we'd be in the same boat as with the 5 AF, the Tiger-Crane, others that people have shown of SD material from non-SD sources -- did they come from the same source, or did one come from the other? (I hope that mention of 5AF doesn't cause HSK to start over, his point is very clear).

And I've not seen a Meteor Fist (Liu Hsing) text/video advertised, I'd like to see those.

Or another "exotic" SD set, the "10,000 Lotus' Blooming" ("Ban Lien Wan Kun", or something like that). Do you know of published versions of that?

[One student]

Leung Ting did a book on 8 Drunken Immortals, a video too...

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/kungfu/collbk_drunkboxing.htm

It's titled "The Drunkard Kung Fu"..it demonstrates 8DI...is this the form you mean?

There are several vcds available on Meteor Fist forms; and I'm sure I've seen a book as well...although I expect there are several variations...not sure which one you are referring to.

That reference on the link to a "Crippled" or "Beggar" Fist is interesting. MH (GMST's brother) taught two forms, a "Crazy Mad Drunk," and a "Drunken Beggar" (with a stick used as a crutch, with "cripple" steps and a begging bowl) before GMS started teaching the 8DI.

[Kellen Bassette]

Thank you for that reference. I have heard of "8 Drunken Immortals" being famous CMA sets, but not sure if one mention is same as the other (or if it is the same as the SD set). Like if one sees "Karate," or "Tiger Style," etc., but its not always the same as another reference of the same thing. I'm sorry but I can't tell from the description of the books/videos in your link if it is the same forms. We'd need to see the titles of the forms maybe, or maybe pieces of it, or publication dates (SD first started teaching 8DI in early-mid 80's). Of course then we'd be in the same boat as with the 5 AF, the Tiger-Crane, others that people have shown of SD material from non-SD sources -- did they come from the same source, or did one come from the other? (I hope that mention of 5AF doesn't cause HSK to start over, his point is very clear).

And I've not seen a Meteor Fist (Liu Hsing) text/video advertised, I'd like to see those.

Or another "exotic" SD set, the "10,000 Lotus' Blooming" ("Ban Lien Wan Kun", or something like that). Do you know of published versions of that?

I haven't seen any of these books/videos, but I know they're available from Plum Publishing...seen the titles in magazines and such...not familiar with SD, could be any number of forms with the same name...but as you asked for a reference...these may or may not be what your looking for....Plum has vcds, of various "Meteor Fists"...I'm almost certain I saw a book once, not sure from who or where...I'd have to do a search to find it...

I don't know anything about 10,000 Lotus....

[hskwarrior]

But isn't it true that learning forms, if practiced properly, can help build the skills that can lead to being a better fighter?

forms practice is good for a demonstration. for health. and is one aspect of training. just because you practice forms doesn't mean you can fight in the least. nor does it mean you know how to effectively use it beyond the shadow of a doubt.

forms are nothing than a reference guide on how to use it. the only way to build your fighting skills is to FIGHT. thats it. you need to work your basics, and apply them. will you use the material as found in the forms? in most cases no.


Strength, speed, stability, balance, endurance, coordination, etc.?

you can develop all of these without forms.


I think I was a better fighter because I did forms, then free practice (like sparring techniques and bag work), then light sparring, then contact sparring, etc.

i was already fighting prior to learning martial arts. so no, i don't feel forms made me or anyone else a better fighter. just because you can do a form well doesn't mean you can fight.


But form practice is not a waste of time, even if you want to be a better actual fighter.

i agree. forms are not a waste of time. but i would NEVER NEVER NEVER tell a person if you want to fight better you have to learn a specific form. never in my life would i do that. and feel bad for others who DO.


True, if not practiced properly its no more than exercise, but it doesn't have to be "just exercise," does it?

our forms practice is intended to perfect the techniques in them. understand them. OWN them. but this is not the way i would or will teach someone how to fight.


But there are also forms practitioners who are better fighters because of their forms practice.

i disagree. there are fighters who understand forms better because the person know how to fight already. but not the other way around.


But there are also forms practitioners who are better fighters because of their forms practice. Isn't that why (at least partially) forms practice has been handed down, and is a common thread in most TMA -- including CLF?

this is called TRADITION. has nothing to do with fighting whatsoever.

[One student]

That is how the teacher does his Mantis hand in the gif clip too. Looks like the student is doing the ridiculous finger poking the way he was taught.

Too bad that real Mantis is about the last 3 fingers, not the 1st finger.

Both the teacher and the student show clearly that they have no concept of the fundamental usage of the Mantis claw.

They make the same mistake that we yell at beginning students about. Same like when the students have no clue on the throat lock move too.

All I can say is that I learned that form from M Hiang (GMS's brother), late 70's, early 80's. That is not the way he taught that form. Not really even close. Not how I practice it, not how many other SD people do it. It is what it is but not sure it is even representative of anything other than how that person practices it, even if he was taught it that way.

[Kellen Bassette]

Thank you for that reference. I have heard of "8 Drunken Immortals" being famous CMA sets, but not sure if one mention is same as the other (or if it is the same as the SD set). Like if one sees "Karate," or "Tiger Style," etc., but its not always the same as another reference of the same thing. I'm sorry but I can't tell from the description of the books/videos in your link if it is the same forms. We'd need to see the titles of the forms maybe, or maybe pieces of it, or publication dates (SD first started teaching 8DI in early-mid 80's). Of course then we'd be in the same boat as with the 5 AF, the Tiger-Crane, others that people have shown of SD material from non-SD sources -- did they come from the same source, or did one come from the other? (I hope that mention of 5AF doesn't cause HSK to start over, his point is very clear).

And I've not seen a Meteor Fist (Liu Hsing) text/video advertised, I'd like to see those.

Or another "exotic" SD set, the "10,000 Lotus' Blooming" ("Ban Lien Wan Kun", or something like that). Do you know of published versions of that?

I could not find the book on Meteor Fist I supposed I was talking about..maybe I'm losing my mind...I went through those vcd titles, they were all for Meteor Hammer forms, so I'm sure that's not what you wanted...one Meteor Whip...Couldn't find a Meteor Fist....sorry about the bad lead....

Came across a post from Sal Canzonieri that may be useful to you...
I seen Shi Tou Quan translated as Stone Head Fist, he says it's also known as Meteor Fist...you may want to look into that form if you haven't done so....
Here's the pertinant portion of that post.


少林石頭拳
The Shi Tou Quan is often known as the Meteor Fist set. It is on page 513 of the Shaolin Encyclopedia, and there is a lot of information about this set given. It's about 75 movements.

[One student]

So you would use the mantis claw hand to poke? My understanding is that it's a grab. I don't practice Mantis(I know a lil spm but thats somethings else) but I know those are NOT finger jabs. Using that way is just silly. You think it's a good form? Even though you know it's just a bunch of random movements with no story?

I don't know that it can be equated with bad or worthless, ONLY because it was made up or hybrid. HSK is proud of the form he made up and I'm sure it has benefits for him and others. I know others who have done the same thing, to have a set that contains the best of what they like to do. Doesn't mean it is "bad" or not worth praciticing.

I've understood the hand postures to be combinations of strikes, particularlly to pressure points, and also grabs where applicable.

Don't get into a discussion of the virtues of pressure point fighting. I'm not convinced of that myself.

[One student]

Maybe you should read my post again , I said what the form is I then commented on what the other mantis training and forms are. And yes the fingers can be used as a poke , I reference the mantis thread at this time. There are many hand attacks in mantis. The Mantis Claw as it is known is a seizing tech it was what I was taught originally . But The finger can be used to penetrate soft areas eyes etc. if need be. KC

That's what I meant: that is how it has been presented and trained, to me -- in SD. But I've said it before, one can teach the same form and technique, rightly or wrongly, and one student walk away with one impression and result from it, and another student in the same class something else. And somewhere along the line you might end up with what is seen in that video. Don't blame everyone who does that form, by how this person does it.

What I was struck by was his eyes, and where they were focusing.

[-N-]

All I can say is that I learned that form from M Hiang (GMS's brother), late 70's, early 80's. That is not the way he taught that form. Not really even close. Not how I practice it, not how many other SD people do it. It is what it is but not sure it is even representative of anything other than how that person practices it, even if he was taught it that way.

Ok, fair enough.

So how do you explain the gif of the teacher himself poking his fingers like an 8 year old trying to annoy his sister?

[One student]

I haven't seen any of these books/videos, but I know they're available from Plum Publishing...seen the titles in magazines and such...not familiar with SD, could be any number of forms with the same name...but as you asked for a reference...these may or may not be what your looking for....Plum has vcds, of various "Meteor Fists"...I'm almost certain I saw a book once, not sure from who or where...I'd have to do a search to find it...

I don't know anything about 10,000 Lotus....

Thank you, I'm going to look at the entire site in more detail.

[One student]

I could not find the book on Meteor Fist I supposed I was talking about..maybe I'm losing my mind...I went through those vcd titles, they were all for Meteor Hammer forms, so I'm sure that's not what you wanted...one Meteor Whip...Couldn't find a Meteor Fist....sorry about the bad lead....

Came across a post from Sal Canzonieri that may be useful to you...
I seen Shi Tou Quan translated as Stone Head Fist, he says it's also known as Meteor Fist...you may want to look into that form if you haven't done so....
Here's the pertinant portion of that post.


少林石頭拳
The Shi Tou Quan is often known as the Meteor Fist set. It is on page 513 of the Shaolin Encyclopedia, and there is a lot of information about this set given. It's about 75 movements.

Only even close text reference I've ever found is in Library of Congress, an historical reference to a style known as "Shooting Star" system. Not sure it is the same thing at all.