Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Leto]

I also was taught cloud hands incorrectly in the 24 form, in Colorado, everyone in CSC does it incorrectly, as far as I know. I observed the master in Boise teaching it incorrectly as well, even though he's not under the Soards anymore. I corrected myself after studying the books by Yang Cheng Fu and Cheng Man Ching.

On an unrelated topic (black tiger), has anyone seen this before? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMZ_SZUmsUU
Very interesting to me. I can see the relationship to the forms we were taught, even has the ditang techniques.

[Empty_Cup]

Yes. That's how I do it now, but I was taught differently. But that posture was called "cloud hands" by the teacher that taught me 24 (for the record it was not Garry Mullins).

Maybe I don't understand what point you're making. That posture IS called cloud hands...

http://learning-tai-chi.info/images/24%20form%20tai%20chi.gif

[Shaolin Wookie]

Very interesting to me. I can see the relationship to the forms we were taught, even has the ditang techniques.

Goes for many forms--especially core forms. There is much in SD that has a ring of authenticity. And many people can use the forms as well as most styles. Which is why the storytelling is frustrating.


But as far as I can tell, SD's version of crane is rather unique--it's much faster and less "stationary" than every other fukien crane form in existence. Most fujian crane resembles only the first 4 movements of Se Meng Tao Lian. 14th and 15th are beautiful forms--but I can see no correlation to any other crane of any other style, so I don't assume that they were "learned by book." Whenever I come to such scenarios, I assume that these are a marker of originality---the Tai Peng system, 3 brown belt birds (which do have small elements resembling eagle claw in them--I met/trained briefly with a student of Sifu Rodriquez of Ying Jow Pai in Atlanta before the Sifu died [RIP], and he called our huge circling bird motions--which end in a broken leg stance--a "flower"), etc. The more exceptional the form, the more original, I think.

There are a billion family styles in existence. I assume that some of SD's forms were part of family styles taught at Chung Yen. Others....have no idea, since I have no evidence to call them one way or the other.

One could also make the case that GM Ie, who supposedly used martial arts as a way of fighting himself out of an opium addiction, couldn't remember the forms as they were taught him in his youth, and therefore supplemented some stuff with whatever he wished. Who knows....

As for internal MA, not sure, but not too concerned. I've never had a reason to question my teacher's skills. I just question the stories of the SD tradition.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The other thing to consider is that Hiang The' did learn more in Indonesia than his brother, and before their falling out this could have been a medium of exchange.


Hiang has more Tai Peng and dagger work.

This leads me to believe that the daggers and Tai Peng systems are Chung Yen legit. Where the two correlate in the basic curriculum, I assume that this was also copied from Chung Yen.

The first time I taught a college course, I went back to what I remembered as a student rather than trying to construct a whole course from scratch. Later on I refined it, but it I think most teachers do the same.

Speculation is never a science, but such assumptions are not farfetched. Again, inductive logic isn't perfect, but it's all we have to go on short of a revision of stories by Sin THe' himself.

[wenshu]

Good for you, trying to take a higher road. I read this thread to get insight on martial arts, SD and otherwise. It would be about half as long and take about half as much time to keep up with it if the "you are bad" and "I am not" and the grammar attacks and semantic debates were eliminated. Is there a separate thread where people who don't like each other and want to insult each other, or pump themselves up, maybe dishonoring themselves in the process, can go to do that, so the rest of us who are interested in actual information don't have to wade through it?

Petty insults are orders of magnitude more honorable than anyone who continues to defend Shaolin Do and its founder, the liar and fraud Sin The.

Defenders of Shaolin Do are in no position whatsoever to claim any kind of honorable higher ground. Every single one of you who has defended the liar and fraud Sin The is tainted by dishonor by that very fact alone. Furthermore you have all engaged in the very pettiness you now deem beneath you in defense of the obscenity spit upon the face of Chinese martial arts that is Shaolin Do.

Had you honestly been interested in "actual information" and "insight" you wouldn't have wasted years of your life studying Shaolin Do.

And I am still waiting to see the purported "Shaolin Do can actually kick ass" footage.

[bawang]

we are not insulting shaolin do. we are rebuking them, like a farmer whipping his wild donkey.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Every single one of you who has defended the liar and fraud Sin The is tainted by dishonor by that very fact alone. Furthermore you have all engaged in the very pettiness you now deem beneath you in defense of the obscenity spit upon the face of Chinese martial arts that is Shaolin Do.
.

LOL. And as we all know, all CMA are alike. There is no variation, and all styles are doing the exact same thing. There are no family styles whatsoever. There is only CMA and SD, and all CMA is a uniform, unitary system of martial arts. Wing Chun is Shaolin is Hung Gar is Xin Yi Liu He Quan is Chen Tai Chi. It's all the exact same thing, and everyone who practices those styles is a professional of pure quality. Why not go further? Shorin Ryu spits upon the face of Chinese Martial Arts. MMA spits upon the face of Tae Kwon Do.


We get it, dude. you're the ****. You spit upon the face of Shaolin-Do.

http://dinosaursfactsforkids.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/dilophosaurus1.jpg

[Shaolin Wookie]

Petty insults are orders of magnitude more honorable than anyone who continues to defend Shaolin Do and its founder, the liar and fraud Sin The.

.

You bring great honor upon your teachers. May the force be with you, always.

[bawang]

We get it, dude. you're the ****. You spit upon the face of Shaolin-Do.


no, we urinate and defecate upon the face of shaolin do. and once in a while we shoot the milk from penus also.

[hskwarrior]

http://dinosaursfactsforkids.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/dilophosaurus1.jpg

the shaolin do lizzard style

[hskwarrior]

You bring great honor upon your teachers. May the force be with you, always.

n u wonder y people rip on shaolin do? the force? really? reality is a bit far off or what?:confused:

[Syn7]

So what are you saying man? The Jedi aren't real? Evidence man, eveidence? You have none! I'll **** you up with my light saber if you don't take that back!!!


Oh, and my dad can totally beat up all your dads....!!!

[Judge Pen]

Maybe I don't understand what point you're making. That posture IS called cloud hands...

http://learning-tai-chi.info/images/24%20form%20tai%20chi.gif

Well then my teachers had the name of the posture right. The only thing is the flow of the technique is very different than the previous video.

[brucereiter]

This statement is inaccurate as I understand it. The story I have always heard is that after challenging an internal MA and getting beaten, GMS asked GMI about it and that's when GMI began teaching him internal styles.

After seeing the specialties of the Chung Yen teachers I actually believe it's highly likely GMS learned his internal styles directly from them.

You are partially correct. The challenge and question you mention are told by sin the at the end of the story.
Watch the Dvd's from sin the where he tells the story. I think it was a DVD called " at the feet of the Gand master" this is one of the instances of him telling the story of his supposed introduction to internal. There you can hear from sin the's lips hs account of this story.

I do think it is possible for Chang man chings tai chi CHUAN and jang rong qiao Bagua were known in Indonesia I the 1960's I am not so sure about chen xin jia or hsing I.

[pazman]

I do think it is possible for Chang man chings tai chi CHUAN and jang rong qiao Bagua were known in Indonesia I the 1960's I am not so sure about chen xin jia or hsing I.

For The to have studied both the Cheng Man Qing form and the 24 in Indonesia, there would have to be an amazing circumstance surrounding that, and there would almost certainly be no way for him to learn it from the same person, or even enough time to become good at them.

I think its safe to say he learned the 24 from a book, along with the 4 roads of huaquan and a slew of others in the shaolin do syllabus.

[Shaolin Wookie]

For The to have studied both the Cheng Man Qing form and the 24 in Indonesia, there would have to be an amazing circumstance surrounding that, and there would almost certainly be no way for him to learn it from the same person, or even enough time to become good at them.

I think its safe to say he learned the 24 from a book, along with the 4 roads of huaquan and a slew of others in the shaolin do syllabus.

24 and Jiang bagua are the most popular forms of tai chi and bagua in existence. Hardly need a book when everyone and their mother does seminars on them.;) Besides, they hosted huge tournaments and Sin had his complex. Could have learned them from anyone, since they clearly had connections. The book thing is a bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

[Empty_Cup]

Posted by Baqualin:
OK guys here you go....collegues
NAME A.K.A. SPECIALTY
Ie Chang Ming (Tie Chang Sang Ren) Herbs & Accupuncture ,Iron Bone/palm/shin, Staff, Sword (broad & Jian) Daggers Spear Monkey Drunken Immortals, Se Ch’uan (Snake) Tai Chi Pa Kua Hsing Ie Lu Hsing

Liu Su Peng (Sen Pien Sow) Tai Peng (bird System), Chain Whips Rope Dart

Je Jou (Shiao) Fu Long Fist , Huas, Mantis, Tiger

*#Su Te’ Tju Ta (Little Brother) Mien Ch’uan (Cotton Fist), Chi Qong Meditation ,Ban Lian Hua Kuen

Tju Ta 1988 Tai Chi festival in mainland China did Dbl Mulan Fan

**Qui Kwong (Liem Qui Qwong) Herbs & Accupuncture Chin na, Saio Chao
**Tjie Tiong (Djie Tiong) Tai Chi Pa Kua Hsing Ie ,Ground Gragon

[pazman]

24 and Jiang bagua are the most popular forms of tai chi and bagua in existence. Hardly need a book when everyone and their mother does seminars on them.;) Besides, they hosted huge tournaments and Sin had his complex. Could have learned them from anyone, since they clearly had connections. The book thing is a bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

I was addressing the idea that he learned it them in Indonesia in the 1960s, but yeah, he could've "learned" it at a seminar in the 1980s.

[Shaolin Wookie]

And if any of that holds true, then Sin The himself is caught in a misrepresentation, since "Tai Peng Sin Kune" and chain whip, perhaps, came from Liu Su Peng, not Ie Chang Ming.

Which is why I tend to think of SD as a Chinese-Indies art, no ifs, ands, or buts. Can't tell the origins of these styles without speaking to all the individuals involved in Chung Yen. I rather like the art, but I'm growing partial to the Chinese-Indies part these days.

[kwaichang]

Whats the deal with Wen shiu he doesnt have a dog in this fight. also SKThe was taught by other teachers prior to GM Ie KC

[wenshu]

LOL. And as we all know, all CMA are alike. There is no variation, and all styles are doing the exact same thing. There are no family styles whatsoever. There is only CMA and SD, and all CMA is a uniform, unitary system of martial arts. Wing Chun is Shaolin is Hung Gar is Xin Yi Liu He Quan is Chen Tai Chi. It's all the exact same thing, and everyone who practices those styles is a professional of pure quality.

So when are you going to start calling jiujitsu Shaolin Do?

[Shaolin Wookie]

So when are you going to start calling jiujitsu Shaolin Do?

Good question. But I'll start with you. You do Shaolin Do. Don't fight it (you can't, since your techniques are derived from the 1000 forms of GM The').

You're the next grandmaster, from what I hear.

You call "jujitsu" by the name of "Shuai Jiao."

Oh well.

[hskwarrior]

i'm curious to your schools use of "Tai Peng (bird System)".

how did this name come along and do you have the chinese characters? Tai Peng means literally: BIG PLATEAU. So how does this relate to birds?

[Judge Pen]

i'm curious to your schools use of "Tai Peng (bird System)".

how did this name come along and do you have the chinese characters? Tai Peng means literally: BIG PLATEAU. So how does this relate to birds?

I'm sure someone here does, but I don't at work. "Peng" could be a bad pronouciation of the system which is supposed to mean "Giant Bird"

This system was Sin The's brother's specialty. Only one small form is taught by Sin The (which is to my understanding only 1/3 of the first Tai Peng form). His brother teaches the system:

TAI PENG (BIRD)
Tai Peng Sin Kune/ Big Bird Opens Its Wings
Tai Peng Fan Che/ Big Bird Flips Its Wings
Tai Peng Chan Se/ Big Bird Spreads Its Wings
(Above 3 Kata Set)Tai Peng Chan Se
Tai Peng Chein Wo/ Big Bird Builds Its Nest
Tai Peng Se Wo/ Big Bird Watches Its Nest
Tai Peng Pao Wo/ Big Bird Defends/Protects Its Nest
(Above 3 Kata Set)Tai Peng Pao Wo
Tai Peng Sao/ Yin Big Bird Sweeps the Clouds
Tai Peng Khe Yin/ Big Bird Cuts the Clouds
Tai Peng Wu Yin/ Big Bird Dances On the Clouds
Tai Peng Po Yin/ Big Bird Strikes Through the Clouds
Tai Peng Chuen He (Hur)/ Big Bird Aims/Stalks
Tai Peng Luo Tien/ Big Bird Desends/Drops From the Sky
Tai Peng Chua Chien/ Big Bird Claw
Tai Peng Kung/ Big Bird Attacks
Tai Peng Foo/ Big Bird Trap
Tai Peng Se/ Big Bird Vision
Tai Peng Ching/ Big Bird Spirit
Tai Peng Chien/ Big Bird Form

http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaolin_pages/material_list.html

[Judge Pen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_Peng

"Big Plateau" right Frank?

[kwaichang]

I have a friend as does JP that has all the chinese characters for all the names and crossed referenced from GMThe's notes. I have contacted him and will know soon what the translation is. I will post it when I have it. KC:)

[Judge Pen]

Quote from Leto:

"In the northern darkness there is a fish and his name is K'un. The K'un is so huge I don't know how many thousand li he measures. He changes and becomes a bird whose name is P'eng. The back of the P'eng measures I don't know how many thousand li across and, when he rises up and flies off, his wings are like clouds all over the sky. When the sea begins to move, this bird sets off for the southern darkness, which is the Lake of Heaven. " - Chuang Tzu

If you keep reading the Central Shaolin page, they list the same bird and crane forms that are in SD, seperately from the Tai Peng system. I don't think they are the same thing, just named similarly. Actually, Chan Ie, that we have been told means "spreading wings", actually uses the character for feathers, not wings.

Also, according to the characters written by GM Sin for Tai Peng Sin Kune, they don't say "great bird opens wings" exactly. 太鵬伸拳Actually the character for "kune" is quan (chien), fist. So I guess this one is using the cantonese pronounciation rather than the fukien and occasional mandarin that we see in all the other form names. The character for "sin" looks to be "shen" in mandarin, which is like "extend". So great bird extending fist? Maybe "opens wings" is what the extending character implies...but it is not the same characters that are used for Chan Ie (Yu)演鸽, which is spreading feathers, or white crane spreads wings in the five animal form, which is bai he chan chi(se) 白鹤演翅.

Of course, the scribbly hand written and photcopied characters that are handed down to use are hard to read a lot of the time. I may have some things wrong...but fourth character of tai peng sin kune 拳 definately looks like the same character at the end of lohan chien, it is easy to compare because they are right next to eachother on the document. It looks nothing like the character for wings 翅, which is found in the white crane forms.

Not that the names are super important. We can call them whatever we want, really (and we have been for several decades now)."

[Judge Pen]

So Tai Peng 大坪 is different from 太鵬伸拳.

[hskwarrior]

I have a friend as does JP that has all the chinese characters for all the names and crossed referenced from GMThe's notes. I have contacted him and will know soon what the translation is. I will post it when I have it. KC

cool. i'm just curious because "TAI PING/PENG" 太平 (TAI PING) & 大坪 (DA PING) BOTH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH A BIRD

http://i0.cnfolimg.com/uploads/wine/images/201211/06/1352171410320123.jpg

[wenshu]

You call "jujitsu" by the name of "Shuai Jiao."

No. I call jujitsu 'jujitsu' because that's what it is.

I call shuai jiao 'shuai jiao' because that's what it is.

I don't need selective circuitous equivocation to call something what it is.

If someone with no affiliation to Shaolin Do opened a school tomorrow and started teaching your, for lack of a better term, 'system', I guarantee you every single one of you would be up in arms about how it wasn't real Shaolin Do.

[hskwarrior]

LOOKS LIKE THERE ISN'T A VIDEO OF THIS: "太鵬伸拳" CAN'T BE FOUND ANYWHERE

"太鵬伸拳" (https://www.youtube.com/results?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_mss=%E5%A4%AA%E9%B5%AC%E4%BC%B8%E6%8B%B3%22&tok=gMuEzT6olgZU7OouZmcjiQ&pq=%E5%A4%AA%E9%B5%AC%E4%BC%B8%E6%8B%B3&cp=1&gs_id=8q&xhr=t&q=%22%E5%A4%AA%E9%B5%AC%E4%BC%B8%E6%8B%B3%22&client=firefox-a&hs=nfI&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bpcl=38093640&biw=1752&bih=910&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=w1)

GOOGLE:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22%E5%A4%AA%E9%B5%AC%E4%BC%B8%E6%8B%B3%2 2&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=%22%E5%A4%AA%E9%B5%AC%E4%BC%B8%E6%8B%B3%22&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=OqI&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ei=mSOhUJn4NpHAiwKLk4CQCw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=eaadf338a679ccd8&bpcl=38093640&biw=1752&bih=910

[Judge Pen]

No. I call jujitsu 'jujitsu' because that's what it is.

I call shuai jiao 'shuai jiao' because that's what it is.

I don't need selective circuitous equivocation to call something what it is.

If someone with no affiliation to Shaolin Do opened a school tomorrow and started teaching your, for lack of a better term, 'system', I guarantee you every single one of you would be up in arms about how it wasn't real Shaolin Do.

There have been several people that teach SD's material that have no current affilitation with SD. Sin The's brother teaches seperately. Barry Van Over in Knoxville teaches whatever is popular, but his base knowledge is SD. Lawrence Day split off and teaches SD's material. John Winglock Ng has students who teach SD's material: Alex Huynh demonstrated portions of two basic SD forms on Nat Geo's fight science and confirmed in an e-mail that he started out learning "traditional" kung fu under John Winglock Ng lineage (that e-mail and a full discussion of this can be found in this thread if you sort through all the ****ing contests that pop up too). Many of Ng's students used to be SD students and vice-versa due to the proximity to each other. And we can't forget Jake Mace who is no longer affiliated with SD.

So yes other people teach basic SD material and appear to have picked it up somewhere along the way from SD. Much of this is why Sin The keeps trying, unsucsessfully, to sue for copyright violations.

[Judge Pen]

LOOKS LIKE THERE ISN'T A VIDEO OF THIS: "太鵬伸拳" CAN'T BE FOUND ANYWHERE

"太鵬伸拳" (https://www.youtube.com/results?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_mss=%E5%A4%AA%E9%B5%AC%E4%BC%B8%E6%8B%B3%22&tok=gMuEzT6olgZU7OouZmcjiQ&pq=%E5%A4%AA%E9%B5%AC%E4%BC%B8%E6%8B%B3&cp=1&gs_id=8q&xhr=t&q=%22%E5%A4%AA%E9%B5%AC%E4%BC%B8%E6%8B%B3%22&client=firefox-a&hs=nfI&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bpcl=38093640&biw=1752&bih=910&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=w1)

GOOGLE:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22%E5%A4%AA%E9%B5%AC%E4%BC%B8%E6%8B%B3%2 2&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=%22%E5%A4%AA%E9%B5%AC%E4%BC%B8%E6%8B%B3%22&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=OqI&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ei=mSOhUJn4NpHAiwKLk4CQCw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=eaadf338a679ccd8&bpcl=38093640&biw=1752&bih=910

You mean there's no video? Does that surprise you? I have always assumed that the world is bigger than youtube.

[hskwarrior]

you mean there's no video? Does that surprise you?

you guys say its all real shaolin. So, if it was it would have a video of it somewhere right? This just adds to the idea that all this stuff was just invented to make money off the unsuspecting.

You know, sin the could never have done this in san francisco. He'd get called out quick!

[pateticorecords]

I have befriended some local Shaolin Do practitioners recently, they love what they are learning, and respect other arts. They also travel to the Shaolin Temple annually and are taught traditional Shaolin forms. I might join them on their next trip.
Also, one of the Shaolin Do students recently joined out school on the recommendation of his Shaolin Do teacher.

Who cares if the lineage is real or not...

[Orion Paximus]

found one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-QK-oniX8w

[Orion Paximus]

and another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfvq89VQR54&feature=related

[Judge Pen]

you guys say its all real shaolin. So, if it was it would have a video of it somewhere right? This just adds to the idea that all this stuff was just invented to make money off the unsuspecting.

You know, sin the could never have done this in san francisco. He'd get called out quick!

Frank, most of us here are not saying it's real shaolin. Haven't for a while. And I don't think this material was recently made up and is part of the kung tao that was taught in Indonesia. From what and when it was created is a question, but I don't think Sin The really learned these particular forms except what his brother taught him later.

If Sin had came to San Fran., he would have been forced to call it what it is: kung tao.

[Judge Pen]

I have befriended some local Shaolin Do practitioners recently, they love what they are learning, and respect other arts. They also travel to the Shaolin Temple annually and are taught traditional Shaolin forms. I might join them on their next trip.
Also, one of the Shaolin Do students recently joined out school on the recommendation of his Shaolin Do teacher.

Who cares if the lineage is real or not...

Thank-you for the positive attitude. I can understand why some people get upset at the arrogance and misrepresentations, coupled with a bad understanding of CMA techniques, by many of SD's elders, but most of the students are well-intentioned (as you have seen for yourself).

[kwaichang]

OK I tried to up load the translation. KC

[MasterKiller]

Who cares if the lineage is real or not...

No one would if we hadn't spent 10 years listening to them talk about monks wearing Gis, statues of Sin The at Shaolin temple, and stories of old Chinese men who pulled them all aside and told them "That is the old Shaolin..."

[brucereiter]

For The to have studied both the Cheng Man Qing form and the 24 in Indonesia, there would have to be an amazing circumstance surrounding that, and there would almost certainly be no way for him to learn it from the same person, or even enough time to become good at them.

I think its safe to say he learned the 24 from a book, along with the 4 roads of huaquan and a slew of others in the shaolin do syllabus.

I agree. I just acknowledged I think that is was possible whereas I think it is impossible that the 64/24 forms came from the Shaolin temple.

I think it is improbable for sin the to have learned theses arts as a teen.

The book Some of the internal sin the teaches from is called "New Approach Chinese Kung Fu Training Methods a Complete Course" The ISBN for the complete set is 962 07 1046 0.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Approach-Kung-fu-Training-Methods/dp/9620710460/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348612743&sr=1-1&keywords=9620710460

There are 3 books in the set. the set contains 20 forms, with Hsing I Roads , Animals and Linkage considered one form.
undoubtedly Sin The took the following forms from the set:

Book One has a lot of training exercises and three forms - one is the Spear vs. Broadsword set. There are also some push-hand exercises that look familiar.

Book Two has a total of 9 forms - of which 5 Sin The has taught. Long Fist, Modern Hua, 24 Form, Tiger Crane, Hsing I Roads, Linkage and Animals.

Book Three has a total of 8 forms - of which two Sin The has taught. Twin Doubles and 9 Section Chain Whip.

Obviously with 8 out of 20 forms from a single set of books it is probably mathematically impossible that he got them elsewhere.

[Empty_Cup]

OK I tried to up load the translation. KC

The English (romanization) carried through but the Chinese characters did not.

[brucereiter]

Whats the deal with Wen shiu he doesnt have a dog in this fight. also SKThe was taught by other teachers prior to GM Ie KC

When the was 5 or 6 years old??? How much could he have learned? He claims he did sand burn training but also claims it was was just a story. That also does not address where, when, how and from whomb he learned.

Yang tai chi chuan 64
Tai chi CHUAN 24 form
Chen xin jia tai chi CHUAN
Jang rong qiao Bagua
8 animal Bagua
Hsing I 5 elements
Hsing I 12 animals
Hsing I linking or "linkage"

This is a lot for a boy of 16 or 21 years of age to learn.
Sin the was born in 1943 and came to the usa in 1964.

The claims his instruction from ie Chang Ming started in 1950.
He does not claim any instruction other than in Indonesia so if I am to understand sin the's claims he says he learned and mastered all of the above material by 1964 when he was 21 years old.

Now add in the 900 + forms the says he mastered between 1954 and 1964 all while working and going to school apparently only doing the intensive training in the summer.

Sin kwang the' claims are not believable. When you look at how sin the teaches / performs any of the internal stuff I mentioned he does it in a way that is not recognizable to what I have witnessed from any other source I have been able to find.
Why does the do it so different? I have scene other ima from Indonesia that looks like it follows the methods and principals of these individule arts.

[brucereiter]

24 and Jiang bagua are the most popular forms of tai chi and bagua in existence. Hardly need a book when everyone and their mother does seminars on them.;) Besides, they hosted huge tournaments and Sin had his complex. Could have learned them from anyone, since they clearly had connections. The book thing is a bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

BUT sin the claims to have learned "jrq" bagua from ie chang ming between the late after he was 16-17 and before he was 21 and left for the usa in 1964.

at that time in indonesia it is possible but very unlikely that the could have been exposed to these styles. jrq did release his book about the form in in 1963 in china and i think joseph crandall released his translation of the book in 1992.

this form was developed in the in the 1950's by jiang rong qiao.

i have heard but can not confirm that joseph crandall referenced sin the's translation in doing research for his own translation which would imply sin the had this information before 1992.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry7Dd3E_ct4&feature=plcp

i find it questionable that sin the signed his translation "by sin kwang the" instead of "translated by sin kwang the" it was defiantly implied to me that the authored those ideas when he in fact did not.


you are very lucky to have the sd teacher you have mike reid has really dug deep to learn what he can about these arts. what he does is not like sin the does though.

[brucereiter]

. I rather like the art, but I'm growing partial to the Chinese-Indies part these days.

it is important that you like the art you are doing and make it your own. fortunately with a teacher like mike ried you have a person that can offer you good instruction even through the bs related to the art. i am glad to have had a chance to train with him, he taught me a lot.

ultimately it does not matter about the history what really matters is what you are getting out of it right now. having said that i reall wish the history bs would be straightened out by sin kwang the.

[Judge Pen]

you are very lucky to have the sd teacher you have mike reid has really dug deep to learn what he can about these arts. what he does is not like sin the does though.

This needs to be underscored as it is the primary reason a lot of former SD people like me, Sean Stonhart and Bruce stayed with the art as long as we did. I think the perception is that we all went to class with Sin The and learned from him, but that's not correct. I saw Sin The a couple of times a year. The rest of the time I was working with my own teachers who really worked hard to make these arts apply for them. My first teacher never talked about lineage and as a high-school male I probably wouldn't have cared if he did. I wanted to get in great shape and learn how to fight (two things that SD was very good at for me). Later I started training with another very good martial artist that focused on fighting and sweating. If I was not impressed with my own teachers, then I wouldn't have stayed for as long as I did.

[Judge Pen]

ultimately it does not matter about the history what really matters is what you are getting out of it right now. having said that i reall wish the history bs would be straightened out by sin kwang the.

He is the only one that could, but I doubt he ever will.

[kwaichang]

Bruce I was told By GM The that when he staryted the training at the school in indonesia that he was taught by others prior to being taught by GM Ie. KC

[kwaichang]

OK I tried again. KC:)

[kwaichang]

Ok here are 2 others as well/. KC

[kwaichang]

OK now take a look KC

[brucereiter]

Bruce I was told By GM The that when he staryted the training at the school in indonesia that he was taught by others prior to being taught by GM Ie. KC

interesting kc...this is possible but it does not address any of my questions about the internal material.

these are some claims of sin the that i have compiled. you can fact check...
some of it i am sure is true and some of it is just a story. the parts that relate to internal are what i am most interested in.
==================================================
1849 su kong tai jin was born in fukien provence
1850 sukong tai jin was found by a shaolin monk and taken into the temple
1851
1852
1853
1854
1855
1856
1857
1858
1859
1860
1861
1862
1863
1864
1865
1866
1867
1868
1869
1870
1871
1872
1873
1874
1875 "su kong tai jin/ ""council""destroy the temple instead of allowing the ching government army / a traitor monk to destroy the temple ??date??"
1876
1877
1878
1879
1880 ie chang ming was born in fukien province. At some point entered the shaolin temple and then followed su kong tai jin into the mountains.
1881
1882
1883
1884
1885
1886
1887
1888
1889
1890
1891
1892
1893
1894
1895
1896
1897
1898
1899
1900
1901
1902
1903
1904
1905
1906
1907
1908
1909
1910
1911 ching dynasty falls, some time after ie chand ming kills ching soldiers and flees to bandung indonesia. (may have left after 1928 since ie is said to have studied with su kong until his death???)
1912
1913
1914
1915
1916
1917
1918
1919
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
1926
1927
1928 su kong tai jin died in fukien provence mountains
1929
1930 "jiang rong qiao creates the ""original baguazhang form"" some time in the 30's I think???"
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
1940
1941
1942
sin the’age 1943 sin kwang the' born in bandung indonesia
1 1944
2 1945
3 1946
4 1947
5 1948 hiang kwang the born in bandung indonesia/ sin kwang the' began sandburn training for 6 months
6 1949
7 1950 "sin kwang the started to study at ie chang mings school ""central shaolin wushu school"" in bandung"
8 1951
9 1952
10 1953
11 1954 "sin kwang the studied ""lower school""
12 1955 "sin kwang the studied ""lower school"" and awarded black belt level 1"
13 1956 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school""
14 1957 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school""
15 1958 "sin kwang the studied ""middle school"" and awarded black belt level 3 /some time around 15 years old sin the meets ""maters wu"" and is introduced to internal. the says that wu had emotional problems"
16 1959 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" (maybe learning internal at this time) "
17 1960 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" (maybe learning internal at this time)"
18 1961 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" (maybe learning internal at this time)"
19 1962 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" (maybe learning internal at this time)"
20 1963 "sin kwang the studied ""upper school"" (maybe learning internal at this time) "
21 1964 sin kwang the awarded black belt level 5. sin kwang the moved to lexington ky to start college. Same year he starts teaching shaolin in lexington.
22 1965
23 1966
24 1967
25 1968 ie chang ming awarded sin kwang the 10th degree red belt grandmaster/1968 mideast national tournament, bill walace competed.
26 1969
27 1970
28 1971 national karate grand championship sat sept 18 1971 u.k. coliseum
29 1972
30 1973
31 1974
32 1975
33 1976 ie chang ming dies in bandung indonesia/some claim he died in 1968. (some say 68 some 76???)
34 1977
35 1978 "sin kwang the opens the ""sports center""
36 1979
37 1980
38 1981
39 1982
40 1983
41 1984
42 1985
43 1986
44 1987
45 1988
46 1989
47 1990
48 1991
49 1992
50 1993
51 1994 "?? System is named ""shaolin do"" ?? But may have been reffered to as ""shaolin do"" some time before."
52 1995 "sin kwang the and james halladay release the book ""shaolin do secrets from the temple""
53 1996
54 1997
55 1998
56 1999
57 2000
58 2001
59 2002
60 2003
61 2004
62 2005
63 2006
64 2007
65 2008
66 2009
67 2010
68 2011 http://www.shaolin-do.com/
69 2012 sin the admits to making up parts of the shaolin do system and to lying about some parts of the shaolin do system and the material he teaches.

==============================================
https://www.youtube.com/user/shaolindointernal?feature=mhee
when i see these representations of ima on video i call into question the quality and understanding of the internal martial arts sin the does. i simply think that sin the and bill leonard do not know very much about internal martial arts.
remember sin the specifically says numerous times over the years he has mastered these styles.
https://www.youtube.com/user/shaolindointernal?feature=mhee
================================================== ====

i do appreciate that sin the is a nice man and that he is in incredible physical condition now and through out his life. i have been told by people who's opinion i respect that sin the can hit incredibly fast and hard. i have witnessed sin the move with extreme explosiveness. i am pretty sure that sin kwang the can defend him self in a fight.

i also appreciate that sin the has taught others to have similar attributes and abilities but that does not mean that sin kwang the has a good understanding of internal martial arts.
he simply does not display it in his teaching or performance.
he has lied and misled about too many things that anything he says can and should be called into question.
========================================

[brucereiter]

questions to those of you who are close to sin the.
can you ask sin the these questions? and share his answers here?

-will you ask sin the point blank about his history? and to explain the discrepancies?
-why is sin the's internal material performed so differently than almost any other source?
-why did sin the' sign his translation of jiang rong qiao's work as his own?
-where and when did you learn chen 83 xin jia tai chi chuan?
-where and when did you learn yang tai chi chuan.
-is the tai chi chuan that you teach and call yang 64 form actually cheng man chings tai chi chuan?
-if the 64 form is not cmc tai chi then why is it that of the MANY variations of yang tai chi out there that the 64 form matches up with cmc form but not to any others i can find?
-where and when did sin the learn the tai chi 24 form?
-why is the 24 form referred to as the "shaolin combination tai chi form"
-why do you sin the think that the tai chi churn, hsing i and bagua you teach come from the fukien shaolin temple? when and how could jrq bagua and cmc tai chi chuan have been at the fukien temple between 1880 and 1910 if you follow sin the's timeline.

[brucereiter]

below is a string of emails between me and a former sd master from a few years ago who shared some information with me about some of his understanding of sd and ima i think there is some useful information for all sd students to consider. i hope he does not mind me posting publicly. if he does i apologize.

>>>>From: David Theroff <>
Date: January 7, 2008 9:31:11 AM EST
To: bruce reiter <>
Subject: Re: more questions

Bruce,

Ok, you asked... But its a healthy amount of words....you may be sorry you asked me!

Its easy to understand the riff between the different factions of SDO, or at least I think its easy. As long as you remember the war lords of*Feudal*Japan, or any other power hungry situation, where everyone wants to be in control of everyone else.

Master Gary and I were on the same test to 1st Black Belt, At that time he was teaching in Atlanta and I was teaching in Boulder Colorado. Master Gary and I were the soards first two instructors. The soards are control freaks pure and simple. So when Master Gary started talking with others from Lexington the soards got very angry. You see in the soards mind you will never be (or Master Gary) as good as them. They feel they were a better white belt than you. Normally when a person in an art gets to Master they get all the rights and*privileges*of that rank. Not under the Soards. Part of the riff they also had with me is that I kept in periodic contact with Master Gary and Master Mike as well as others not under the soards and that angered them as well. (they feel they have a right to tell you who your friends should be).

As shocking as it may sound when I tell you this; I feel it is the truth on the SDO system. Grandmaster The' does not run the art at all the elder Masters do. GMT just sits idle while everyone does their own thing unless there is*commotion.*

The soards are very*deceitful*and dishonest people who have taken advantage*of so many people its*sickening.*They create*here-say*and rumors about anyone they don't like. I remember them bashing Master Grooms for over 3 hours once in an instructor meeting about how bad he was, yet the ironic part is I was the only instructor at that meeting who even knew who Master Grooms was!

GMT told me to start the internal program at my San Jose school. (I was a Tai Chi Instructor for several years before I started in SDO) He suggested I talk with Master Grooms/Master Mike for the internal program as well as Master Joe in Texas for the kids program. I did, and created an internal program. In less than a year Grandmaster The' had mentioned in my school to all my students at a test that we had the largest internal program in the USA (2002). That really angered the soards (they didn't create it so naturally they would be angry). The soards told me to stop both the internal and the kids program, but GMT stepped in and supported me. GMT told me at that time I would eventually answer directly to him so I just kept going. This is when the soards started their here-say campaign*against'*me. All of a sudden they started spreading lies and stories about me to everyone. (some of their brown nosers are still posting on internet sites bad things about me that are untrue), from how I have a bad attitude and am angry all the time, to all kinds of other nonsense.

Then I tested to 6th Black and all my material stopped. They didn't teach me any more material. With all of that it now became obvious that I was in the wrong art. Being in San Jose afforded me many new friendships. The entire Shaolin circle of life tour came into my school once as did many other famous martial artists (Benson Lee of Eagle Claw, etc..). Some of the Masters wanted to work out with me and I wanted to learn some of their material so I did. (My School was the 2nd largest Chinese kung fu school in the bay area according to one newspaper) I also traveled back to Illinois where my first instructor was living, and he accepted my rank in SDO in 2003 so I started learning a ton of info from him. (I had no idea he had the material he had until 2003, yet I started with him in the 70's). So I sold my school to my Sr. Student in San Jose and came here to Chicago area. I collected a ton of material outside of the SDO art over the years as well and now that I had the*oppression*factor removed I was/am free to work on all of that as well. In Sept 2007 I tested in front of two of my previous Masters to 7th Black over all of their material that I have been working on, and then they taught me a ton more. (mostly Hsing I Chuan and Pa Kua Chang), stuff I have not seen in the SDO art.

Meanwhile in Sept 2007 the soards told all of their instructors that they can't teach the internal program and can no longer teach any kids as sharon soard hates kids. (so in other words, tell your students in these programs that they have to quit) This would mean that some of the schools would no longer be able to support themselves. Master Carr in LA broke away from them but 99% of his students stayed with the soards. David Diep (my Sr. Student in San Jose), broke away from them as well but every student (over all the San Jose school students never liked the soards) joined him with the exception of 3 people. The Soards lied to them over 20 times of various issues, which is all written down on paper, the instructors there shared these written agreements with all the students so every San Jose student is aware of the dishonesty of the soards) The San Jose school was reported to talk to GMT and ask if they could answer to me, but GMT told them it was about money, but in reality its about the hold that sharon soard has over him. (he bows to her will). ALthough GMT wrote me a letter in October*apologizing*to me for not having me on his grandmaster site, when he put it on the site the soards told GMT to remove it. Further research found that they are angry at me because I sold the school to my student David Diep and they felt I should have just handed over to them for free). GMT made a promise to me to my face, yet he didn't live up to it, so I as well as many others have issues with his honesty as well now.
The soards lawyer has been sending them letters (San Jose school), but they all got their own lawyer who is currently representing them, time will tell how it all turns out. (the soards have very little to stand on, they really can't do anything with the copyright claim as you can't copyright something you did not create, so its really all down to the confidentially or trade secrets issue which is what they try to claim. Problem is that we have found several sources of SDO material being done by other schools that know nothing of SDO. (most of the internal stuff, Hua Fist, etc.). And the more video that is found of other non SDO schools doing the material, the weaker their claims become.

Meanwhile some of the martial arts vendors have their own rumor that they feel is highly likely. This is that they think the reason sharon soard has a hold over GMT is that ashley soard (sharons daughter), is really the daughter of sharon and GMT. There is a lot of clues to support this theory.*david soard and sharon soard have marriage problems, david soard is always going after young female students to the shock of many students, and ashley soard has never called david "dad" or "father" only by his first name, among many other more convincing things.

So from my perspective the best thing I ever did was to leave them. Now I am working on whatever I want from all the instructors/Masters I have trained with. My experience with SDO allowed me to be seen in a different light by some of my first Masters (outside of SDO), that have started showing me material that I have not seen. The San Jose students have asked me to come teach seminars at their school now as well, they even told me they would give me the school if I returned. So we are going to go back eventually.

I last talked with GMT 2 months ago during all this commotion. He was very nice, and its really down to the soards. I would guess if the soards were not around GMT would let me answer directly to him. I feel that GMT is being extorted by the soards.

what do you think of all the "b.s." surrounding shaolin do and its history?

I tend to believe more of the Master Hsiang version of the history. When we were in Indonesia (Master Gary was there as well), I talked with a few of the other Masters there who learned under GM Ie Chang Ming. Meanwhile I wrote an article for GMT and was supposed to write several others (which I did), but the soards told me not to try and get them printed. I got to interview and talk with GMT a lot on the China trips. My last name is spelled Theroff and his The' so we got seats next to each other almost the entire time. In the beginning GMT encouraged me to talk with the others about the history, but when I started hearing things like GM Ie Chang Ming may have learned from others, and asking GMT about this, he (GMT) told me not to mention the other Masters any longer, and wouldn't even answer any of my questions in regards to this subject. If GMT was totally honest about everything I would have more faith in the history he claims, but since there are several other things he has not been completely honest about, I started to doubt his history.

The problem is that if a person is not honest about one thing, they may not be honest about others. (why lawyers always beat people down on the stand, are they a reliable source of "truth"?) The stone tablets were*erected*at the temples because SDO gave a donation at the temple. Its the same concept as a zoo in the usa, donate and you get a plaque.*



<<<<
continued in next post

[brucereiter]

continued from previous post

>>>SDO honored the Shao-lin Temple, not the other way around. The soards have made many bogus history claims as well which does not offer any more credibility to SDO, but takes it away, so others prey on this. Some SDO sites claim that GMT was the first one in 1500 years that was awarded a tablet, a total lie. (There are other tablets that were put up before GMT"s including a Tang So Do one). I was at the original Shaolin temple in 1989 and saw the Tang So Do temple and took pictures of it, it was not until years later until the SDO tablets where put up.

I personally consider SDO to be more of a gypsy type of art, material being collected from several sources, NOT just the Shao-lin temple. This would explain why Cheng Man Chings modified Yang Tai Chi short form is being used for SDO's 37 posture "temple form", and why the combined Tai Chi form, which is really an almost exact version of the Beijing modified form from the 50's. I studied with two of Cheng Man Chings sr. students before I started in SDO, it was strange knowing the Tai Chi form before I started SDO, and I only needed to modify some things to test on it. I really doubt that GMT has 900 forms. Look at it this way, he teaches 1-2 new forms per year in Lexington, and he has taught under 400 forms so far (at least that is what he told me). This would mean that it would take him 250 more years to release the rest of the material. I have met several other kung fu masters who know over 100 forms., not as many as GMT has taught, but still a healthy amount.

All of this from my perception doesn't really matter, most arts can't claim a "real" lineage its all*conjecture. What everyone wants is MATERIAL. Schools like to claim strong lineages as they think it will get them more students, or set them on a higher*pedestal*than everyone else. I have learned a lot from SDO, but also well over a hundred materials from others as well.

Up until last Sept I thought it would just be a matter of time before I would be back with SDO; I left being in good terms with GMT; but now that I am learning material and have the ability to advance I am phasing ****her away from SDO as it is not as attractive as it once appeared to be.....

mdst

i do feel lucky to study under master gary and master reid and to have the chance to just study ima as that is where my interest is. they have both been very good to me.*
master gary told me he had a falling out with the soards but he did not tell me why. do you know if it was over the ima program? *
i noticed a few years ago your name was removed from the soards web site etc and i wondered why.*
do you know how grandmaster the feels about the soards attitude regarding the ima program?*
are you in contact with grand master the anymore?*
what do you think of all the "b.s." surrounding shaolin do and its history?

On Jan 6, 2008, at 10:29 PM, bruce reiter wrote:
hi master david,

thank you for taking the time to respond to my emails. please see a few comments and questions below. i hope none of my questions are offensive.*

best regards,

bruce reiter



On Jan 6, 2008, at 11:11 AM, David Theroff wrote:
Bruce,

We really like the Bay area and after we left it (we lived there for almost 8 years, and that is where my Kung Fu school was) we realized it was home.
best wishes on your return home ...

You are*fortunate*to be able to have the Internal Program under the SDO flag. My internal program in San Jose was what eventually got me to leave them. the soards are totally*against*it, and they have been trying for years to get GMT to make it so you, and Master Grooms can't teach it either. So I stayed with another Master I had trained with off and on for 35 years while also being in the SDO organization and he promoted me to 7th Black last Sept so I am staying with their group now. We have a school in the Bay area now, and I go there 4-5 times per year to teach them material.
i do feel lucky to study under master gary and master reid and to have the chance to just study ima as that is where my interest is. they have both been very good to me.*
master gary told me he had a falling out with the soards but he did not tell me why. do you know if it was over the ima program? *
i noticed a few years ago your name was removed from the soards web site etc and i wondered why.*
do you know how grandmaster the feels about the soards attitude regarding the ima program?*
are you in contact with grand master the anymore?*
what do you think of all the "b.s." surrounding shaolin do and its history?


I watched your push hands video and I do have comments. Rule number one: Never use the hands and palms in push hands. Feel with your entire body! The long bone of the arms should be touching not the hands. everyone always feels from the hands their entire life; in Tai Chi you need to feel the movement using your entire body. Strange to me is that I have studied with 12 different Tai Chi Instructors and Masters in my career yet they used the long bone of the arms, yet everyone else I see always uses the hands.

Tai Chi yields, yet I saw a lot of Yang vs Yang energy displayed in your video. Movement flows it does not stop. *I tried to explain to my students; if we compare external Kung fu to Internal Tai Chi to a floor: External would be a wood floor (still has some flex to it), but the Tai Chi floor would be made out of rice paper. (press and fall thru).

Another thing; don't forget that when your opponent had tried to attack you, and they start to withdraw their arm go with it as that is when they are open. (Ie: The saying: "The closer they get to you the ****her you are, yet the ****her away they try to get from you the closer you are to them"). Hope that helps;' basically keep doing what you are doing!

thank you for sharing your observations, i will see what i can do with the information you shared.

Also read the Tai Chi Book "There are No Secrets"; I totally agree with that author and his*opinion*on the so called push hands champions in the USA (basically*any big*wrestler*could win a push hands championship)

i have looked at this book but do not own it yet ...

mdst



On Jan 5, 2008, at 11:47 PM, bruce reiter wrote:
hi master david,

san francisco bay area is a great area. best of luck with your move. i travel about 6 or so months per year so i will look you up in the bay area next time i am there.
here is a link to my youtube channel*http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter *if you have time please take a look and let me know what observations/advice you may have.
i am a student and a teacher here at the atlanta chinese shaolin center in the internal program.

best regards,

bruce reiter
<<<<

[brucereiter]

Suggested reading list:
Below are some of the many books in my library that I have found useful in my study and training in shaolin do. Please do not think you can learn these styles from a book. one thing you can get from reading martial arts books are better understanding of the concepts and principals unique to each art, then through experimentation and practice you can start to add some of these concepts to your practice. The most important thing is to practice and experiment, do not spend too much time reading, we need to sweat to improve …
best regards,
bruce reiter
===============================================
full of mis information but useful as a place to start checking reality from.
Shaolin-Do: Secrets from the Temple
Copyright 1995 by James R. Halladay and Grandmaster Sin Kwang The'
Kendall/Hunt Publishing Company 20050 Westmark Drive Dubuque, Iowa 52002
=============================================
"New Approach Chinese Kung Fu Training Methods a Complete Course" The ISBN for the complete set is 962 07 1046 0.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Approach-Kung-fu-Training-Methods/dp/9620710460/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348612743&sr=1-1&keywords=9620710460

===================================
the dao of taijiquan
by jou tsung hwa 233 pages, line drawings
===========================


yang chen fu
the essence and applications
of taijiquan
translated by louis swaim. 124 pages, old photographs, softbound
=========================================


chen taijiquan
chen xiao-wang, 
feng zhi-qiang, 
feng da-biao
softbound, 227 pages

=============================================

classical baguazhang
bagua lian-xi fa
by jiang rong qiao
translated by joseph crandall
97 pages

===========================================



sun style bagua zhang 
including bagua sword
by sun lu tang
translated by joseph crandall
107 pages, velo-bound
==========================================


emei bagua zhang 
theory and application
liang shou-yu &yang jwing-ming
361 pages,softbound,
=========================================



classical pa kua chang
fighting systems and weapons
author: sifu jerry alan johnson
publisher: ching lung martial arts association, inc, copyright 1990
form: paperback, 9 x 6 in, 188 pages

====================================



tai chi theory and martial power
book by yang jwing-ming

================================================== =======



taiji chin na: seizing art of taijiquan
book by yang jwing-ming

======================================

xingyi mu chuan (xing yi mother fists) 
by jiang rong-jiao
translated by joseph crandall
115 pages,
===============================================


xingyi zha shi chui & ba shi chuan 
by jiang rong-jiao
translated by joseph crandall
105 pages.
ba shi according to jiang, was invented by yue wumu (yue fei) thus harkening back to the idea that yue invented at least part of this powerful and adaptable style.
=============================================

strength training anatomy authors: frederic delavier
category: book , paperback

===============================================

mosby’s handbook of anatomy & physiology
598 pp 464 in color , soft cover.
book harm079
================================================

[brucereiter]

This needs to be underscored as it is the primary reason a lot of former SD people like me, Sean Stonhart and Bruce stayed with the art as long as we did. I think the perception is that we all went to class with Sin The and learned from him, but that's not correct. I saw Sin The a couple of times a year. The rest of the time I was working with my own teachers who really worked hard to make these arts apply for them. My first teacher never talked about lineage and as a high-school male I probably wouldn't have cared if he did. I wanted to get in great shape and learn how to fight (two things that SD was very good at for me). Later I started training with another very good martial artist that focused on fighting and sweating. If I was not impressed with my own teachers, then I wouldn't have stayed for as long as I did.

Very important points.

[Syn7]

You mean there's no video? Does that surprise you? I have always assumed that the world is bigger than youtube.

No no, you got it all wrong JP. If it isn't on youtube, it never happened!

[Syn7]

This needs to be underscored as it is the primary reason a lot of former SD people like me, Sean Stonhart and Bruce stayed with the art as long as we did. I think the perception is that we all went to class with Sin The and learned from him, but that's not correct. I saw Sin The a couple of times a year. The rest of the time I was working with my own teachers who really worked hard to make these arts apply for them. My first teacher never talked about lineage and as a high-school male I probably wouldn't have cared if he did. I wanted to get in great shape and learn how to fight (two things that SD was very good at for me). Later I started training with another very good martial artist that focused on fighting and sweating. If I was not impressed with my own teachers, then I wouldn't have stayed for as long as I did.

I was never under the impression that any of you actually learned from The. I did make the assumption that your instructors did. Am I wrong?

If those teachers left Sin The and spent YEARS reforming the style with live resisting opponents, then I am willing to look at these people and re-assess. Show me something I can see to help me understand where the pride comes from. So far I am leaning to the "pride is from practice" side. You guys defend it simply because you put in the time and/or don't know any better. Just show me I'm wrong. If Sin The isn't the best example, then who is?

[Judge Pen]

I was never under the impression that any of you actually learned from The. I did make the assumption that your instructors did. Am I wrong?

If those teachers left Sin The and spent YEARS reforming the style with live resisting opponents, then I am willing to look at these people and re-assess. Show me something I can see to help me understand where the pride comes from. So far I am leaning to the "pride is from practice" side. You guys defend it simply because you put in the time and/or don't know any better. Just show me I'm wrong. If Sin The isn't the best example, then who is?

You're right. I am defending it because I put the time in. That's all I have. Maybe if I had the opportunity to have taken that time and devoted it to another art I would have been better. I might not have been. It would have depended on the teacher. My first teacher died in a tragic accident in 1994 so I can't offer him, but his passion and humanity inspired me to continue training even through the bull****. My second teacher was Garry Mullins' oldest son (whom I was 4 years older) and he taught in a small gym part time and we would meet one or two mornings a week at 5 am to train and fight. He was a good forms person, but not one of the best.

I've already posted some videos of his father and there have already been photos of Masters Nance and Reid. I can't put up better examples than that. If they still suck by your standards then ok, but I bet if you spent the afternoon working out with them you would walk away with a different impression. Youtube is a great tool, but its not the end-all-be-all to judging martial competency.

[Syn7]

Yeah, you have been pretty clear about your position. I used your post as a jump off to ask the others.

This isn't about my ability or the styles that I practice. If anyone wants to debate those styles, as a whole, by all means...

I never set out to critique any one of you specifically. Some of the dumber ones wandered into my radar, but aside from that, I really don't care about the individuals that participate in the lower and mid levels of SD.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've already posted some videos of his father and there have already been photos of Masters Nance and Reid. I can't put up better examples than that. If they still suck by your standards then ok, but I bet if you spent the afternoon working out with them you would walk away with a different impression. Youtube is a great tool, but its not the end-all-be-all to judging martial competency.

I can attest to this firsthand. They are both humble, and both very dangerous. And as big as they are, they are 1000X more subtle than I am (and I'm much smaller, and often "cheat" techniques). They could easily muscle most people, and yet they never do. It's quite frustrating when you reflect on it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just show me I'm wrong. If Sin The isn't the best example, then who is?

Again, the wrong line of thought. Don't rely upon anyone else's credentials. There are very traditional CMA schools I've visited that couldn't teach anyone how to fight, but they've got great videos.:rolleyes:

I'll try to up the ante on the vid bit when I get a chance, but I'm busy nowadays. Might take a while.

[Leto]

Thank you for posting that correspondence, Bruce! It certainly adds to the narrative here, and is something to think about. His observations do make sense of a lot of what is going on, and it makes sense of why he always seemed so dour at the gatherings I saw him at with the Soards.

[Syn7]

Again, the wrong line of thought. Don't rely upon anyone else's credentials. There are very traditional CMA schools I've visited that couldn't teach anyone how to fight, but they've got great videos.:rolleyes:

I'll try to up the ante on the vid bit when I get a chance, but I'm busy nowadays. Might take a while.

I don't disagree with that. A legit lineage is not a guarantee of combat effectiveness. But a false lineage puts everything in question. So after I had decided Sin The had no honor, I took a look at the style itself. I'm still looking for an impressive forms demo. If you have actual fight clips, even better. But I figured that was asking too much. I saw some low level sparring matches, but nothing that came anywhere close to impressive.

If you do forms and don't fight, you can't see combat in forms. If you know combat and forms, you can. Whether the man doing the form can fight or not is another question. But if they perform strong, it's one more check mark in the positive column. And one thing you can tell is whether it could be used effectively or not. Especially in an applications demo.

How bout everyone here trying to make their point put up a great example of one or more of the arts you practice. Let's compare and discuss? No arguing over character or egos, just the movements themselves. If you can post combat and performance peices, even better. I haven't gone video digging for awhile, but I'll take a look when I get a chance.

I will post high level Wrestling, Sub Grappling, Muay Thai and Bak Mei. I know, weird combo right. but I find the shorthands work really well in close while engaging and disengaging from the clinch and in the outer pocket I can use Muay Thai to pick em apart. If I get in real trouble I can fall back on my grappling or my acrobatic experience to get in real close or get right out and take off. Wrestling I will use whether I am standing or not. It's probably the most useful of what I have learned. Very rarely in real fights have people just stood and boxed with me. I am usually the smaller one, so they always try to close the gap and get hands on me. Without the wrestling background I doubt I would have done anywhere near as well as I have. I would get bearhugged, fallen on and dry humped by bigger guys who only really know how to hold on and swing.

One time a man who outweighed me by atleast 60 pounds tried to throw me down stairs, I brought him with me and used him as a sled. Without the wrestling, that would have hurt alot. Infact it hurt anyways. But not as much as it hurt him. Couple of surgical strikes and some more indiscriminate stomping and it was done. Found a dental impression in my shoe later. It was on film too, security cameras. It saved me from an internal charge. Of course they wouldn't let me have the footage as a trophy, unfortunately.

I remember my friend filmed some of our sparring sessions tho. It was full contact with sparring gloves(6's) and mouth guards. About 10 of us taking turns. Maybe I can convert those if he still has em. They are on a tape somewhere.

Too bad the digital camera age didn't start sooner. So much stuff taped on lil tapes that are so easy to just pack up and forget about or lose. Nobody can ever be bothered to convert them. I imagine this is an issue for many of you guys as well. I never had a video camera back then, but somebody always had one. I'll see what I can do. But to be honest, if I'm gonna call old friends for footage, I would rather run down some of our shows and B-Boy competitions instead. We'll see.

[Syn7]

1880 ie chang ming was born in fukien province. At some point entered the shaolin temple and then followed su kong tai jin into the mountains.


My gut tells me that Ie never went to any Shaolin temple. My own lineage in regards to Bak Mei have caused me to question any lineage claiming to come from the southern temple. There is a lot of argument here and nobody really knows for sure if it existed and where. The five elders stories are cool, but probably not anywhere near to being true. Not to say there isn't any truth to them, just that it has been so romanticized that it's hard to sift thru all the crap.

[brucereiter]

My gut tells me that Ie never went to any Shaolin temple.

I agree. It is very improbable.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, you have been pretty clear about your position. I used your post as a jump off to ask the others.

This isn't about my ability or the styles that I practice. If anyone wants to debate those styles, as a whole, by all means...

I never set out to critique any one of you specifically. Some of the dumber ones wandered into my radar, but aside from that, I really don't care about the individuals that participate in the lower and mid levels of SD.

Yes, but I was referring to the examples of the three higher level students that we put up as examples of the best of SD. They are not perfect, but they are pretty good. You can argue that they got that way dispite Sin The, and that they worked and trained on their own to make SD work for them, but I know at least one that would attribute the vast majority of his skills to Sin The even though he is, unquestionably, better in his movement at displaying the fundamental CMA movements that were lacking in Sin The. Perhaps that's just him being humble and honoring his teacher. Perhaps its protecting his little corner of the market. It's probably a little of all three.

[Judge Pen]

My gut tells me that Ie never went to any Shaolin temple. My own lineage in regards to Bak Mei have caused me to question any lineage claiming to come from the southern temple. There is a lot of argument here and nobody really knows for sure if it existed and where. The five elders stories are cool, but probably not anywhere near to being true. Not to say there isn't any truth to them, just that it has been so romanticized that it's hard to sift thru all the crap.

I think you are 100% right. But because Bak Mei, and most Southern or hakka styles, have these stories intertwined in their lineage doesn't dimminsh the authenticty of what is taught even if the oral tradition as to where it came from is romanticized and suspect.

With SD it's like that to the power of 10. Add another culture (whom I am told is even more prone to romanticized stories and exagerations of the truth) a teacher who may have been Sin The's grandfather and an opium addict, and Sin The who soon realized that in the 60s Kentucky he could say anything he wanted and it would not be challenged as long as he could out fight anyone around him (or at least convince them that he could) and you get the recipe for some whoppers that have been passed down as truth for years until this information age has pulled the rug out from under it.

[kwaichang]

Many can be good fighters and form people by studying SD, I was on U tube last PM and watched alot of Jake Maces vids, I am not a great forms person but can see that he has no foundation. I was very displeased with what I witnessed, and understand why many of you think SD sux because of the vids on there. While my forms may not be asthetically pleasing there is an intent about them, also in watching his applications on U tube there is evidence he knows little about the actual use of the techniques from the forms, esp tiger. So many judge their own skill and others judge the skill of SD people by the History and the Vids on You Tube. so no wonder SD has no respect and as it is coupled with the "History" and lies generated. But there is no reason why one in SD cant be "Good". It all depends on ones desire and persnal Kung Fu. KC

[bodhi warrior]

Many can be good fighters and form people by studying SD, I was on U tube last PM and watched alot of Jake Maces vids, I am not a great forms person but can see that he has no foundation. I was very displeased with what I witnessed, and understand why many of you think SD sux because of the vids on there. While my forms may not be asthetically pleasing there is an intent about them, also in watching his applications on U tube there is evidence he knows little about the actual use of the techniques from the forms, esp tiger. So many judge their own skill and others judge the skill of SD people by the History and the Vids on You Tube. so no wonder SD has no respect and as it is coupled with the "History" and lies generated. But there is no reason why one in SD cant be "Good". It all depends on ones desire and persnal Kung Fu. KC

I'd really like to see the sin the' footage you have.

[Syn7]

I think you are 100% right. But because Bak Mei, and most Southern or hakka styles, have these stories intertwined in their lineage doesn't dimminsh the authenticty of what is taught even if the oral tradition as to where it came from is romanticized and suspect.

With SD it's like that to the power of 10. Add another culture (whom I am told is even more prone to romanticized stories and exagerations of the truth) a teacher who may have been Sin The's grandfather and an opium addict, and Sin The who soon realized that in the 60s Kentucky he could say anything he wanted and it would not be challenged as long as he could out fight anyone around him (or at least convince them that he could) and you get the recipe for some whoppers that have been passed down as truth for years until this information age has pulled the rug out from under it.

Yes and no. There is a major difference. In Bak Mei (CLC) none of us really believe or even care about the Shaolin stories. They are fun for the kids. We consider CLC to be our lineage starter. And CLC is well documented and no joke. He was not just some guy doing kung fu. He used it, taught it, led troops with it. There is a major difference. That being said, I don't really even care about CLC. As long as my \sifu is good, I'm happy. My Sifu came in 69 was teaching here in the 70's, he could have told stories. But he didn't. He kept it real. He isn't even interested in talking about white eyebrowed taoist monks betraying the temple. And he certainly doesn't use it to swindle ignorant white people. He mostly teaches Chinese because white people want the razzle dazzle and they just don't get it in his class. Hard work, and realistic applications don't appeal to those guys who wanna wear jammies and kick high like on TV. I still think KC was first exposed to, and fell for, CMA on TV. Bruce lee and kung fu tv show. I am willing to bet that is the case for most of the SD guys who joined in those days. I think Sin The went with it, blew smoke up their asses and charged a fat fee for the pleasure of being lied to.

[Syn7]

Yes, but I was referring to the examples of the three higher level students that we put up as examples of the best of SD. They are not perfect, but they are pretty good. You can argue that they got that way dispite Sin The, and that they worked and trained on their own to make SD work for them, but I know at least one that would attribute the vast majority of his skills to Sin The even though he is, unquestionably, better in his movement at displaying the fundamental CMA movements that were lacking in Sin The. Perhaps that's just him being humble and honoring his teacher. Perhaps its protecting his little corner of the market. It's probably a little of all three.

Yeah, I was never really impressed with the performances I saw. Not sure who I saw, it was awhile ago now and I never bothered to remember the names. But I think the links were from you. I considered the skills to be high enough to teach, but not as a master. Junior instructor. And I won't even get into what I thought about that dragon form. Not trying to be a d1ck, just being honest.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, I was never really impressed with the performances I saw. Not sure who I saw, it was awhile ago now and I never bothered to remember the names. But I think the links were from you. I considered the skills to be high enough to teach, but not as a master. Junior instructor. And I won't even get into what I thought about that dragon form. Not trying to be a d1ck, just being honest.

Sure. With all the ****ery around I appreciate restraint. The dragon form is showy and not my cup of tea either, but that's what you tend to get at demonstrations. Like I said, its hard to guage real skill from videos. If there were specific criticisms on techniques that's one thing, but just to say someone sucked isn't very constructive (not saying that's all you are saying, but you should get my point). The only way to really guage someone's skill set is to spend some time with them. It's the subleties that do not always come across. I believe if you spent a little time training with Garry Mullins, Tim Nance or Mike Reid you would have a different position. I do not think your position would change if you did the same with Sin The.

[brucereiter]

I believe if you spent a little time training with Garry Mullins, Tim Nance or Mike Reid you would have a different position. I do not think your position would change if you did the same with Sin The.

i agree with this.

[Shaolindynasty]

I believe if you spent a little time training with Garry Mullins, Tim Nance or Mike Reid you would have a different position. I do not think your position would change if you did the same with Sin The.

How do you guys stay in the art and bad mouth your Sigung like this? If one of my students said they would rather train with me than my sifu I wouldn't have a problem with that but if they said they would rather train with me because my sifu(their sigung) sucks then I would be ****ed and tell them GTFO.

It seems to me most of the SD loyalty isnt toward Sin The or the system as much as it is towards the time each of you have spent in the system. Finding ways to legitimize the time you have spent there.

btw, I know this is the case as I originally came from a "kungrate" school and it took me a long time to let it go. even after a few years of training in choy lay fut it was hard to face the truth about my previous school.

[Shaolindynasty]

The reason lineage is important in TCMA is not to verify if your school is legit or not. It's about paying respect to the work and knowledge of those who passed this down to you. You only know what you know because of them. If you don't respect your sigung's skills then you shouldnt be a part of the system/school.

[RJ797]

I think all the SD people badmouthing Sin The are what you would call ex-Shaolin Do people.

[Shaolindynasty]

I think all the SD people badmouthing Sin The are what you would call ex-Shaolin Do people.

Ok maybe they don't belong to an actual shaolin do school anymore but many of these "ex shaolin do" guys still practice the system. My point is if you cant respect Sin The's own skill set how can you then practice that skill set yourself.

Anyone who is part of a "true" CMA school would see the problem here

Once again I beleive the motivation to find something "legit" about shaolin do is to justify their own time spent learning it and not so much that they believe in the system

[Judge Pen]

How do you guys stay in the art and bad mouth your Sigung like this? If one of my students said they would rather train with me than my sifu I wouldn't have a problem with that but if they said they would rather train with me because my sifu(their sigung) sucks then I would be ****ed and tell them GTFO.

It seems to me most of the SD loyalty isnt toward Sin The or the system as much as it is towards the time each of you have spent in the system. Finding ways to legitimize the time you have spent there.

btw, I know this is the case as I originally came from a "kungrate" school and it took me a long time to let it go. even after a few years of training in choy lay fut it was hard to face the truth about my previous school.

Simple--I'm no longer training in the art. I have respect for many people that I have trained with, but I lost a lot of respect for Sin The after the deposition where he plainly lied. Before, I respected him because those I respected did. I no longer have that pretense.

[Judge Pen]

Ok maybe they don't belong to an actual shaolin do school anymore but many of these "ex shaolin do" guys still practice the system. My point is if you cant respect Sin The's own skill set how can you then practice that skill set yourself.

Anyone who is part of a "true" CMA school would see the problem here

Once again I beleive the motivation to find something "legit" about shaolin do is to justify their own time spent learning it and not so much that they believe in the system

Yeah I still practice some of my SD material. I think you're right that I do want to find something legit about the system. I go back to what was taught in Indonesia. I think Sin the was a very good martial artist at one time, but became complacent. That and allowing these stories to be repeated as true and then lying under oath were the final nails in the coffin.

[Shaolindynasty]

Simple--I'm no longer training in the art.


Yeah I still practice some of my SD material.

Confused:confused: which one is it?

[RJ797]

He means he doesn't get any lessons from a Shaolin-Do teacher. However, he is probably practicing the CMC Tai Chi form, the JRQ Pa Kua form and others he learned while in SD.

[Judge Pen]

He means he doesn't get any lessons from a Shaolin-Do teacher. However, he is probably practicing the CMC Tai Chi form, the JRQ Pa Kua form and others he learned while in SD.

Yes. I do practice some of the internal that I've learned. I've supplemented what I learned with reliable sources to make sure I'm using proper methods and to correct many of the SD quirks. I'd love to find a Hsing-Ie teacher locally (and to have the time to devote to training), but what I do is all I really have the time to do anymore.

[kwaichang]

I respect GM The as a M/A but the lies bring question to motive and character. To be blind to ones short comings and faults is like a Divorce You can disown the wife or husband but the child will always be yours. The art or Child is made yours through time and effort " Kung Fu" . I no longer train in SD but still train in the forms etc. I respect the CMA and what I do .
Some of the greatest teachers I have had in life had less skill but could transfer knowledge well. Or they were great teachers and could get me to be a better M/A or musician or what ever. Too many place emphasis on skill of the teacher not the ability to teach. I have been better than a few of my teachers but did not respect them less. KC

[hskwarrior]

I respect GM The as a M/A but the lies bring question to motive and character. To be blind to ones short comings and faults is like a Divorce You can disown the wife or husband but the child will always be yours.

I respect this. Sin may have had some real skills at one time. who knows. but still, HIS legacy isn't looking so good based on his lies and deceit. Like you said, after walking away, there is still the material that he taught to you. regardless if it was borrowed or stolen, it was till modified to have SIN's flavor. At the same time, if he did create forms that is not such a bad thing. what is bad is that he lied about its origins.

creating forms is something all martial artists want to do at some point of their lives. to see if they could. To prove something to themselves. i have done it and am still doing it. but i know to call the forms i create "MODERN" CLF because all i know is CLF. the problem starts when "TRADITIONAL" gets mislabled over something modern.

I've always told my sifu i would collect every set he ever created as it was part of his essence, created by him based on his own experience. i treasure these forms because they are part of HIS legacy. So, i hope Shaolin Do schools just stop spreading the Shaolin History and say they are disciple's of Sin The and the art he created. everyone creates something somewhere in time. just don't lie about it.

Take whatever Sin The taught you (Aside from our S5AF) and turn it into something that can be very effective. take off the karate gi's and go T Shirt and gung fu pants and sash. apply same rank requirements just eliminate the GI.

although i let out my anger on seeing our form pillaged, i still do feel bad for most of you because no one deserves to be dooped that way. i'm human and actually do feel for you.

ps, no more dvd, vcd or book talk. Show us the skills so that we can either clown or be proud of your guys' hard work.

[Judge Pen]

take off the karate gi's and go T Shirt and gung fu pants and sash. apply same rank requirements just eliminate the GI.


My teacher did this 10 years ago. Although some ripped him for it I appreciated it when I started training with him.

[shen ku]

I understand the issue of the gi but could care less. I have seen schools of everykind use stuff that you wouldn't believe. I still wear the gi and most likely always will. I have tried the other and I just like the feel of the gi..? But I do understand.

[Old Noob]

I respect this. Sin may have had some real skills at one time. who knows. but still, HIS legacy isn't looking so good based on his lies and deceit. Like you said, after walking away, there is still the material that he taught to you. regardless if it was borrowed or stolen, it was till modified to have SIN's flavor. At the same time, if he did create forms that is not such a bad thing. what is bad is that he lied about its origins.

creating forms is something all martial artists want to do at some point of their lives. to see if they could. To prove something to themselves. i have done it and am still doing it. but i know to call the forms i create "MODERN" CLF because all i know is CLF. the problem starts when "TRADITIONAL" gets mislabled over something modern.

I've always told my sifu i would collect every set he ever created as it was part of his essence, created by him based on his own experience. i treasure these forms because they are part of HIS legacy. So, i hope Shaolin Do schools just stop spreading the Shaolin History and say they are disciple's of Sin The and the art he created. everyone creates something somewhere in time. just don't lie about it.

Take whatever Sin The taught you (Aside from our S5AF) and turn it into something that can be very effective. take off the karate gi's and go T Shirt and gung fu pants and sash. apply same rank requirements just eliminate the GI.

although i let out my anger on seeing our form pillaged, i still do feel bad for most of you because no one deserves to be dooped that way. i'm human and actually do feel for you.

ps, no more dvd, vcd or book talk. Show us the skills so that we can either clown or be proud of your guys' hard work.

I've been quick to criticize you so I want to be equally quick to praise. This is a good post and a good sentiment.

[themeecer]

Dude, people used to spout that nonsense constantly on here. JP used to set people straight about it. THEMEECER was even one of the guys who took some convincing, if I remember correctly.
Y'all said my name! (Said in my best Bruce from Family Guy impersonation)

I'm not sure what I was convinced of. I am still loyal to both my teacher and GMT.

[Empty_Cup]

Y'all said my name! (Said in my best Bruce from Family Guy impersonation)

I'm not sure what I was convinced of. I am still loyal to both my teacher and GMT.

MK was referencing erections





...of statues of GMT at the Shaolin temple.

[brucereiter]

How do you guys stay in the art and bad mouth your Sigung like this? If one of my students said they would rather train with me than my sifu I wouldn't have a problem with that but if they said they would rather train with me because my sifu(their sigung) sucks then I would be ****ed and tell them GTFO.

i would not have wanted to study tai chi chuan/internal with sin kwang the. my opinion based on my conversations with sin the and what i have witnessed of his performance and teaching of tai chi chuan, bagua and hsing i is he does not really practice them but knows some things about the forms / principals. from what i have witnessed he has not expressed a high level or understanding and defiantly not a mastery of the material.

on the other hand my teachers that i spent time with here in atlanta taught me a art that is not recognizable to what sin kwang the teaches and does.

i would gladly not have any association with anyone who tells me what i can and can not say or think. if my csc atl teachers have a problem with anything i have said i am sure they will tell me. if i have said anything that is mistaken or untrue i will gladly retract it.



It seems to me most of the SD loyalty isnt toward Sin The or the system as much as it is towards the time each of you have spent in the system. Finding ways to legitimize the time you have spent there.
why should i have any loyalty to sin the or shoalin do?
i left the system a few years back.
there is nothing to legitimize. what i do is what i do...





btw, I know this is the case as I originally came from a "kungrate" school and it took me a long time to let it go. even after a few years of training in choy lay fut it was hard to face the truth about my previous school.
not all students experience is the same.

[The Willow Sword]

After all this time, I was curious to see if things were still rolling here and they are.
Well you guys,what a thread!!!

I am no longer TWS and no longer do KF or any martial art anymore. I found out I was much better at being an LMT than I ever was at fighting. Still,though,my years at Sd and from my other teachers helped shape what I do today and has kept me relatively fit and burnout free. I still meditate and do a little qigong here and there.
Keep on keepin on folks.

Walk in Balance
Walk in Beauty,
Much Love,
J

[themeecer]

MK was referencing erections


Oh ... in the future don't say my name when referencing things like this.

:p

[kwaichang]

:)
Oh ... in the future don't say my name when referencing things like this.

:p

So just out of curiosity what is your opinion of all these things about Lying , history, etc that has transpired , You may PM me if you like I will keep your opinion to myself if you so choose. KC:)

[MasterKiller]

:)

So just out of curiosity what is your opinion of all these things about Lying , history, etc that has transpired , You may PM me if you like I will keep your opinion to myself if you so choose. KC:)

I believe meecer's initial response was the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and screaming "I CAN'T HEAR YOU" over and over.

[themeecer]

I believe meecer's initial response was the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and screaming "I CAN'T HEAR YOU" over and over.

Hehe .. trying to pull me back into this morass?

I was actually formulating a response. I don't know that I have the time, energy, or patience to post it today.

Catching up on this thread has wore me out.

[shen ku]

Meecer, does this count as the "yell at me sometime" that we always say we are going to do

[themeecer]

Meecer, does this count as the "yell at me sometime" that we always say we are going to do

Nope. We're the equivalent of a guy who tells a gal he is going to call and never does.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Ok maybe they don't belong to an actual shaolin do school anymore but many of these "ex shaolin do" guys still practice the system. My point is if you cant respect Sin The's own skill set how can you then practice that skill set yourself.

Anyone who is part of a "true" CMA school would see the problem here

Once again I beleive the motivation to find something "legit" about shaolin do is to justify their own time spent learning it and not so much that they believe in the system

I see it like this. As a college professor, if I teach my students (or my employees at my other job) something questionable (from their perspective, not mine) and then cannot satisfactorily answer difficult questions, then I lose my credibility. It's happened once before, (in reference to an obscure grammar question--i knew the principle but couldnt explain the rule) but I learned to prepare myself better in the future. As I see it, Gm The' has not answered the difficult questions, and so has lost credibility, as well he should. He has not prepared himself better by offering information about his actual training in indonesia and the structure of chung yen. This is merely constructive criticism, not an insult-- though some old timer SD guys might disagree.

My Sifu answers tough questions, admits defaults in his information, is humble about his excellent skills, and flat out knows how to teach. He has credibility. I would rather train with him because I feel that my own honesty and earnestness will be rewarded with honesty in turn.

When I've trained with Gm Sin, I've learned forms, nothing more. Oh, and he kicked me out of my 1st degree black belt sparring session (funny story, actually) for being too aggressive. I don't dislike him or even think he lacks general skills. He lacks credibility.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Thing is--you always have a choice to prepare yourself and honestly admit what you do and do not know. GM Sin simply has not exercised that choice for his own reasons. A simple question--"how can Jiang Bagua and CMC tai chi sort form be fujianese shaolin?"

They can't. Why won't he admit that? It would be a small start

[Empty_Cup]

I see it like this. As a college professor, if I teach my students (or my employees at my other job) something questionable (from their perspective, not mine) and then cannot satisfactorily answer difficult questions, then I lose my credibility. It's happened once before, (in reference to an obscure grammar question--i knew the principle but couldnt explain the rule) but I learned to prepare myself better in the future. As I see it, Gm The' has not answered the difficult questions, and so has lost credibility, as well he should. He has not prepared himself better by offering information about his actual training in indonesia and the structure of chung yen. This is merely constructive criticism, not an insult-- though some old timer SD guys might disagree.

My Sifu answers tough questions, admits defaults in his information, is humble about his excellent skills, and flat out knows how to teach. He has credibility. I would rather train with him because I feel that my own honesty and earnestness will be rewarded with honesty in turn.

When I've trained with Gm Sin, I've learned forms, nothing more. Oh, and he kicked me out of my 1st degree black belt sparring session (funny story, actually) for being too aggressive. I don't dislike him or even think he lacks general skills. He lacks credibility.

Good post. Now add to that another level or two or three of sifus who have great credibility, great skills, great character, and who don't propagate false claims. I'm not talking about the Soards, obviously.

What you're left with is the current situation.

[Lucas]

Oh, and he kicked me out of my 1st degree black belt sparring session (funny story, actually) for being too aggressive.

It is against the law to leave it at that, you must elaborate, or face Bawang in a naked mud wrestling match.

[themeecer]

:)

So just out of curiosity what is your opinion of all these things about Lying , history, etc that has transpired , You may PM me if you like I will keep your opinion to myself if you so choose. KC:)

Let me first off tell you about my experiences with GM Sin. I cannot comment on what others claim they have been told or not told. I have never personally been told anything I considered a lie from him nor my teacher. Next year I will have known him for 30 years. In all this time he has treated me with respect and kindness. Back at the old sports center we had driven up for my blackbelt test but apparently I had my times wrong and we arrived while the test was in progress. I was 13 at the time and I went up to him to apologize for being late and that we would come up the next time he was holding tests. He told me not to worry about it and to stick around. After a full day of testing he gave me a private test so we wouldn’t have to drive up again. My school has never been that big and we don’t bring in much money to the SDA. He has never treated me any different than he does those with the largest schools in our system.

I had been told for many years that the short kata were pieced together by him in response to his student’s difficulties with the original material he had been teaching. I’ve never had a problem with that. I also had been told that Grandmaster Ie had traveled around picking up material that wasn’t originally in our curriculum.

I have seen some exaggerations made in our system, for example the steele at the Shaolin temple. (I don’t 100% discount this practice of donation since it does help to keep the grounds intact) If I was so outraged about exaggerations I would run as far from Chinese martial arts as I could. We tell stories of immortal alcoholics and a magical monkey who can lift his 18,000 lb staff with ease. We fight imaginary opponents in our pajamas and claim that our version is better than your version of fighting imaginary opponents because we can trace our lineage of fighting imaginary opponents back to the first cave man. We also claim that our pajamas are far superior to your pajamas.

This art has treated me very well. It has protected me in real world self-defense situations. I have made it my own and will continue to do so till my dying day. Some forms I prefer better than others; I tend to focus on those and remember the rest for archival purposes.

[Kellen Bassette]

It is against the law to leave it at that, you must elaborate, or face Bawang in a naked mud wrestling match.

I thought Bawang was above those Barbarian Mongol arts....

[Kellen Bassette]

If I was so outraged about exaggerations I would run as far from Chinese martial arts as I could. We tell stories of immortal alcoholics and a magical monkey who can lift his 18,000 lb staff with ease. We fight imaginary opponents in our pajamas and claim that our version is better than your version of fighting imaginary opponents because we can trace our lineage of fighting imaginary opponents back to the first cave man. We also claim that our pajamas are far superior to your pajamas.


It does seem like embellishment is ingrained in the Chinese culture. You can find at least 20 different Kung Fu styles with the same back story...you just change the name of the monk that beat up the other 5 monks, or the animal that defeated the bigger animal to inspire the system...

What's with the pajamas anyway??? Military Kung Fu 1000 years ago didn't wear Wushu pajamas, frog button shirts are not more practical than T shirts, Okinawan Karate masters trained in their shorts before they jumped on the gi bandwagon, hakamas...really?? Why not wear a kilt?

Why do martial artists insist on playing dress up??

[themeecer]

Why do martial artists insist on playing dress up??
Because it makes us look so doggone sexy.

[hskwarrior]

Why do martial artists insist on playing dress up??

The only true uniform you will ever need is the clothes you are wearing when the moment comes for you to use your gung fu/ kungarate, or whatever.

whats with karate people taking chinese kung fu then infusing it into their systems?
whats with karate types who does karate while claiming its kung fu but he doesn't realize he moves karate.

what's with the what's with? :eek:

[Kellen Bassette]

Because it makes us look so doggone sexy.

Yeah, I guess a butterfly kick would lose some of its appeal in jean shorts and a flannel shirt...

[Kellen Bassette]

The only true uniform you will ever need is the clothes you are wearing when the moment comes for you to use your gung fu/ kungarate, or whatever.

whats with karate people taking chinese kung fu then infusing it into their systems?
whats with karate types who does karate while claiming its kung fu but he doesn't realize he moves karate.

what's with the what's with? :eek:

You lose something from both arts that way...

[Lucas]

I thought Bawang was above those Barbarian Mongol arts....

Not if he has a chance to force the sexy time

[themeecer]

Yeah, I guess a butterfly kick would lose some of its appeal in jean shorts and a flannel shirt...

That does it .. I am busting out my Daisy Duke's.

[Syn7]

Sure. With all the ****ery around I appreciate restraint. The dragon form is showy and not my cup of tea either, but that's what you tend to get at demonstrations. Like I said, its hard to guage real skill from videos. If there were specific criticisms on techniques that's one thing, but just to say someone sucked isn't very constructive (not saying that's all you are saying, but you should get my point). The only way to really guage someone's skill set is to spend some time with them. It's the subleties that do not always come across. I believe if you spent a little time training with Garry Mullins, Tim Nance or Mike Reid you would have a different position. I do not think your position would change if you did the same with Sin The.

Yeah, but you can use the info available to calculate the odds and make a decision on whether it's even worth your time going to see them.

When I asked for videos of the best representation of SD, I mean just that. I understand that people do flower dances to crowd please. Believe me, I see it in all sorts of performing arts. Especially dance. The crowd loves the acrobat and boos the skilled technician. Sad, but c'est la vie.

So show me a good demo that shows fundamentals without the flowery dancing.

I can find tons of you tube vids of old men who still have crazy ging even tho they can't do backflips and hold their foot above their head. Tricking isn't fighting. It's neat, but it's just a show.

[Syn7]

I respect GM The as a M/A but the lies bring question to motive and character. To be blind to ones short comings and faults is like a Divorce You can disown the wife or husband but the child will always be yours. The art or Child is made yours through time and effort " Kung Fu" . I no longer train in SD but still train in the forms etc. I respect the CMA and what I do .
Some of the greatest teachers I have had in life had less skill but could transfer knowledge well. Or they were great teachers and could get me to be a better M/A or musician or what ever. Too many place emphasis on skill of the teacher not the ability to teach. I have been better than a few of my teachers but did not respect them less. KC

That is by far the most intelligent thing I have seen you post. I'm still going to tear into it, but good for you KC.

Ok, a child is not comparable to a MA style. At least not SD. If you were part of a real MA family then maybe you could make that comparison. But you don't. SD is very impersonal by nature of it's size and the requirements for becoming a student. A master has a disciple and that disciple is family. He may sleep at the masters home, eat with the masters family etc etc. SD is not that personal. But even with a real legit master disciple familial style relationship, I still disagree with that analogy. The responsibility one has to an MA system is not in the same league as the responsibility to a child. Besides, most are loyal to their Sifu, not the art itself.


As far as the teacher thing goes, that has nothing to do with anyone being able to produce a good demo of SD. Still waiting. Yes it is true, some are better teachers than others. let's take three examples and you tell me who the better sifu would be. Example #1 a great instructor with a good knowledge base and average skill set or #2 A poor instructor with high knowledge base and great skill set, or #3 A great instructor with a great base and great skills. Who do you want to learn from? I would propose that #'s 1 and 2 are simply sub par and #3 is what it really takes to be a great instructor.

That being said, people get old and get hurt, but they still retain their experience whether they can still perform or not. Having been thru it and knowing for yourself what works and what doesn't is important in being a great teacher. We have gotten so used to sub par quality in our lives that we actually accept mediocre teachers. You can go find the best of both you know, it's not like it's that rare.

[Syn7]

My teacher did this 10 years ago. Although some ripped him for it I appreciated it when I started training with him.

That took balls. Good for him. I'm sure there are lots of good people involved. Don't misunderstand my critique of the GM and the style as a judgement on the character of every SD practitioner.

It will be interesting to see what happens after The buys the farm. I wonder what the style will develop into down the road. Who knows, maybe it will improve exponentially and become something else, something unique.

[Kellen Bassette]

That does it .. I am busting out my Daisy Duke's.

At least have the decency to make a video of it and post it here...

[Shaolin Wookie]

It is against the law to leave it at that, you must elaborate, or face Bawang in a naked mud wrestling match.

LOL. Not much of a story, but it was kind of amusing after the fact. On my 1st degree black belt test, GM The' was pairing up the students testing for the sparring session. He starts pairing people up, and as I watch, I notice that he's not pairing people up wisely (in my opinion). Then he gets to me. I'm about 5'9, 175 lbs (in pretty ****ed good shape). He pairs me up with a young 20-something chick who probably weighed 110 soaking wet.

Now, I have 2 speeds. Super slow mo, and super fast. And I pretty much lack anything in between. Add to this that I was cross-training in MMA at the time because I wanted more full contact experience that allowed me to use my wrestling experience. I didn't understand the pairing, since there was another chick exactly her size who would have made a better partner.

So GM The' commences the sparring session. I planned on just stalking around and maybe sweeping this chick with a throw ASAP, then just stalking around some more. Well, she comes out windmilling like there's no tomorrow, so Plan A went down the drain. I didn't want to hit her, so I covered, checked some feeble kicks with my shin, and did my best to stay out of her range (she was throwing punches without stopping to cover). I realized after about 10-15 seconds that this probably didn't look very good for me, and this was my 1st degree test, and that I would have to do something. So I tried to figure out where I could hit her and not leave a mark.

Since I had on these puffy gloves, I decided to drill her in the forehead. She wasn't covering her center, and her forehead looked good--it was all bone and wouldn't bruise if I stuck it to her with a stiff jab. I didn't want to hit her in the body, and I didn't want to break her nose, and I didn't think she could take even a half-power leg kick. So I waited, planted my foot, and threw a pretty stiff punch to her forehead. What I didn't think was that this would also look very bad for me. When I hit her in the forehead, her head snapped back like she got hit by a shotgun blast. She staggered back, looking at me kind of startled when she regained her balance.

I figured that would be enough to send the message that she shouldn't try to T-off against someone she didn't know, but after a couple of seconds she decided to come back windmilling like there was no tomorrow. I wasn't as patient this time, and so I blasted her in the forehead again. I figured this was fair--she didn't learn the lesson, and she didn't cover her center. She came in out of control. So when I hit her, I got the same result--her head went flying back and she staggered backwards.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Next thing I knew, GM The' was pushing me back up against the wall, telling me that I was out of control.

I was a bit angry at the moment because GM The' was totally off-base there. I was the only one who was in control. I threw only two punches, landed them right on target amidst a flurry of windmilling limbs, and spared my partner real damage. I was kind, patient, and sparing.

It really put a damper on the evening when I was sent to the corner to watch the rest of the affair, sitting Indian style on the floor.


Anyways, it was the only time my wife has ever attended one of my MA events (outside of a demo this year). She ridicules me for this. She never saw me training MMA or BJJ, and so doesn't really know that I can actually kick some serious ass when it comes down to it.

Every time we're watching an action flick and some small skinny chick starts kicking some male ass, my wife looks at me and says: "So, do you think you could beat her up?"

[Syn7]

So what exactly did you do wrong? Aside from the fact that you should have dumped her on her head, that is...

If he didn't want you to hit her, why did he pair you up?

And what the hell is a chica who spazzes out with such a horrible method doing at that high of a level? Lemme guess, she could do forms and in sparring nobody wanted to drop her, so she fell thru the cracks, right? Whatever the reason, that speaks volumes about the quality of instruction. People shouldn't be promoted simply for paying dues and showing up. Do the higher ranks pay more for lessons and testing?

[Shaolin Wookie]

So what exactly did you do wrong? Aside from the fact that you should have dumped her on her head, that is...

If he didn't want you to hit her, why did he pair you up?

And what the hell is a chica who spazzes out with such a horrible method doing at that high of a level? Lemme guess, she could do forms and in sparring nobody wanted to drop her, so she fell thru the cracks, right? Whatever the reason, that speaks volumes about the quality of instruction. People shouldn't be promoted simply for paying dues and showing up. Do the higher ranks pay more for lessons and testing?

LOL. More likely---like most traditional MA's, not enough respect is paid to a 65 pound weight difference.

You have to approach opponents differently based on reach, weight, etc. She went at me like she would if she was going at someone her size. And nevermind the storytelling---I call everything that isn't practical "windmilling." I definitley had more experience than she, so I considered it sloppy.

Not to be sexist, but I've rarely seen a chick in TMA who can kick much ass. Just being honest.

[Syn7]

So did she or did she not deserve her rank? What is the ranking based on? Martial ability or performance value, or both? If it's martial ability or both, how did she get so far? Nothing is more dangerous in a combat scenario than an overestimation of ones own skills. If people are promoted beyond what is earned, they are being set up for an ugly fall. It should be criminal.

So again, I ask, does it cost more for classes and testing when you reach the higher levels?

How much is the training? How much is the testing (a concept I wholeheartedly disagree with)?


Windmilling makes me think of the Simpsons when Bart and Lisa go at it.

[Judge Pen]

I had been told for many years that the short kata were pieced together by him in response to his student’s difficulties with the original material he had been teaching. I’ve never had a problem with that. I also had been told that Grandmaster Ie had traveled around picking up material that wasn’t originally in our curriculum.


I was told this too, and would not have a problem with it, but that's not what he said during his deposition under oath. He said he created short form from whole cloath, that it was based on the legend of the 108 lohan but that he did not know the 108 lohan, had not seen it before and did not know anyone who had seen it.

I agree with you sentiments on your personal interaction with The. I could repeat those sentiments. He has always been kind and treated me, my teachers and other students with respect. But that's not the point. What he said in the deposition is different than what has been said by him (through his speeches, websites, articles and books). He doesn't have to say this directly to my face for me to take umbridge with the representation.

I really wish he would just be upfront with his material and stop trying to legally protect something that he cannot. Both have gotten him in trouble and hurt his credibility with many people that otherwise would have continued to defend him.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, but you can use the info available to calculate the odds and make a decision on whether it's even worth your time going to see them.

When I asked for videos of the best representation of SD, I mean just that. I understand that people do flower dances to crowd please. Believe me, I see it in all sorts of performing arts. Especially dance. The crowd loves the acrobat and boos the skilled technician. Sad, but c'est la vie.

So show me a good demo that shows fundamentals without the flowery dancing.

I can find tons of you tube vids of old men who still have crazy ging even tho they can't do backflips and hold their foot above their head. Tricking isn't fighting. It's neat, but it's just a show.

Look at the first three for fundamentals: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=garry+Mullins+shaolin

Not showy, but nothing more than basic skills for beginners. I don't have a video that I can post to that shows Mullins outside of a demonstration. The sparring classes of Nance are out there, and I hold him among the best of SD too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v7i37wzeDU

[Shaolin Wookie]

I was told this too, and would not have a problem with it, but that's not what he said during his deposition under oath. He said he created short form from whole cloath, that it was based on the legend of the 108 lohan but that he did not know the 108 lohan, had not seen it before and did not know anyone who had seen it.


I don't know what to make of that deposition. There were clearly times when the witness didn't understand questions in haste to answer particulars.

Particularly, early on in the deposition does "come up" mean the same thing as "come up with"?

The way I understood it, GM The' says he and Hiang "came up" in possession of certain forms/styles. I didn't think he actually meant "created out of thin air," even though that's what the judge understood. I think that's why the lawyer interjected.

Anyways, he mounted a poor defense elsewhere (I think copyrighting intellectual property is a fruitless endeavor), and did admit to making up some stuff--Lohan included.

[Empty_Cup]

I don't know what to make of that deposition. There were clearly times when the witness didn't understand questions in haste to answer particulars.

Particularly, early on in the deposition does "come up" mean the same thing as "come up with"?

The way I understood it, GM The' says he and Hiang "came up" in possession of certain forms/styles. I didn't think he actually meant "created out of thin air," even though that's what the judge understood. I think that's why the lawyer interjected.

GMT's position in the deposition seemed to be fairly clear with regards to the short forms and some of the longer forms: he asserts he made these up himself without the help of his brother.

The statement that most take issue with is when he says that the 108 Luohan, short tiger form, crane forms, etc. were essentially made up by him in content but the names taken from "ancient roots". This would seem like a gross omission of truth if I was a student assuming the form content itself was ancient in origin. It just further exacerbated the situation when he then said he represented the material like this because he didn't want to appear boastful.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I was told this too, and would not have a problem with it, but that's not what he said during his deposition under oath. He said he created short form from whole cloath, that it was based on the legend of the 108 lohan but that he did not know the 108 lohan, had not seen it before and did not know anyone who had seen it.


GM The's own words for those who have heard 50 versions of the story:

"[In] '65 I teach traditional long form and find out that United States people did not understand it, lose lot of student. So then I begin to create a short form 1 through 30 as a set, and for different belt white to yellow belt 1 three [sic] 10, short form 1 through 10 sparring technique, teach them 20 self-defense yellow to blue, and then move onto from 11 through 15 short form, and beginning teach them long form the tiger and the directional---for directional do. But that take a while to create those."

He then admits that the 30 short forms are not part of hte 108 lohan, which he also admits never having seen in their entirety. He also admits to having created many forms, teaching them alongside what he learned "classically."

Hence, some of SD is GM The' created, some is older stuff. And so we're stuck where we are after 1000 posts---which is which?

[Judge Pen]

I don't know what to make of that deposition. There were clearly times when the witness didn't understand questions in haste to answer particulars.

Particularly, early on in the deposition does "come up" mean the same thing as "come up with"?

The way I understood it, GM The' says he and Hiang "came up" in possession of certain forms/styles. I didn't think he actually meant "created out of thin air," even though that's what the judge understood. I think that's why the lawyer interjected.

Anyways, he mounted a poor defense elsewhere (I think copyrighting intellectual property is a fruitless endeavor), and did admit to making up some stuff--Lohan included.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about a deposition. There's no judge at a deposition. And in order to claim copyright legally, you have to create something unique. Which is why it didn't work in the Hamilton case or the Van Over case.

Look at page 46, lines 7-25 through Page 53. He unambigiously says he created the 30 kata. He says "it's a legend that they have 108 short form, but nobody seen it." He says clearly that he does not know how to do the 108 form (by answering that is correct to the question). You can say that Sin The doesn't understand the question, but the man claims to speak several different languages and to have an engineering degree from UK. He was represented by counsel that raised the proper objections (and several improper objections in my opinion).

He justifies telling students it is part of an ancient system, instead of telling them that he created it himself, because the latter would be boastful.

He admits the same for Fei Hu, Can Ie, Luo Tien, Yin He.

I can't see much room for argument. Either he created these forms, and does not know them or they are part of what is taught in Indonesia and he is willing to lie under oath to assert a bogus copyright claim.

[Judge Pen]

GM The's own words for those who have heard 50 versions of the story:

"[In] '65 I teach traditional long form and find out that United States people did not understand it, lose lot of student. So then I begin to create a short form 1 through 30 as a set, and for different belt white to yellow belt 1 three [sic] 10, short form 1 through 10 sparring technique, teach them 20 self-defense yellow to blue, and then move onto from 11 through 15 short form, and beginning teach them long form the tiger and the directional---for directional do. But that take a while to create those."

He then admits that the 30 short forms are not part of hte 108 lohan, which he also admits never having seen in their entirety. He also admits to having created many forms, teaching them alongside what he learned "classically."

Hence, some of SD is GM The' created, some is older stuff. And so we're stuck where we are after 1000 posts---which is which?

He claims that everything that he submitted via VHS was subject to the copyright. They do not list all the forms in the deposition, but he lists some of them.

I understand that he is simplyfying techniques, but in various articles, speeches, websites he has said he knew the underlying material. They come from this temple etc. Here is not only admits to not knowing the underlying material but to not telling his students the truth (because in his culture that would be boasting).

Is Sin The had not claimed that the underlying material was part of material learned by Su Kong (because he was the only one that could master all the material from all the temples) and said the lower belt curriculum was created to teach the basics so that a student could handle the more advanced classical material, then most of this controversy would be avoided.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about a deposition. There's no judge at a deposition. And in order to claim copyright legally, you have to create something unique. Which is why it didn't work in the Hamilton case or the Van Over case.

Look at page 46, lines 7-25 through Page 53. He unambigiously says he created the 30 kata. He says "it's a legend that they have 108 short form, but nobody seen it." He says clearly that he does not know how to do the 108 form (by answering that is correct to the question). You can say that Sin The doesn't understand the question, but the man claims to speak several different languages and to have an engineering degree from UK. He was represented by counsel that raised the proper objections (and several improper objections in my opinion).

He justifies telling students it is part of an ancient system, instead of telling them that he created it himself, because the latter would be boastful.

He admits the same for Fei Hu, Can Ie, Luo Tien, Yin He.

I can't see much room for argument. Either he created these forms, and does not know them or they are part of what is taught in Indonesia and he is willing to lie under oath to assert a bogus copyright claim.

LOL...typed "judge," meant lawyer. And I wasn't defending him. Went back and re-read it. You're right. I thought he said that he created the names, not the forms of Fu Hu Chien, Chan Ie, Luo Tien, and Yin He. Bit of both, it looks like.

And that's why he lacks credibility. You can't tell whether he's lying under oath or telling the truth, since you can't tell whether he's lying or "storytellin" when he's not under oath.

[Shaolin Wookie]

because in his culture that would be boasting).

Is Sin The had not claimed that the underlying material was part of material learned by Su Kong (because he was the only one that could master all the material from all the temples) and said the lower belt curriculum was created to teach the basics so that a student could handle the more advanced classical material, then most of this controversy would be avoided.

I agree. Sounds about right. The truth tends to end controversies pretty quickly.

[Judge Pen]

LOL...typed "judge," meant lawyer. And I wasn't defending him. Went back and re-read it. You're right. I thought he said that he created the names, not the forms of Fu Hu Chien, Chan Ie, Luo Tien, and Yin He. Bit of both, it looks like.

And that's why he lacks credibility. You can't tell whether he's lying under oath or telling the truth, since you can't tell whether he's lying or "storytellin" when he's not under oath.

LOL. Gotcha.

Because I saw some of the forms performed in Indonesia by people that were not trained by Sin The I tend to think that he did not create all the material he claims to in the deposition which further clouds the issue. The only thing that isn't cloudy trhough all this is that these copyright claims have destroyed his credibility.

[Shaolin Wookie]

When I started cross-training in other styles/MA's, part of the reason was to test what I knew against what other teachers were doing. I didn't particularly care if GM Sin "created" his forms out of thin air based on his previous MA experience, since you can't test these in ay other way than putting up your skills against opponents. Part of it was to test the quality of his techniques and what I had received from my Sifu.

I don't take much from any horse's mouth, so I like to test things. At some CMA schools I saw more focus on technique and posture. I wasn't used to so much nitpicking about particular turns of a wrist during a form. Often, in SD, you learn to block with a particular handform, and you cover the line---it's not about a 45 degree turn of the wrist, but instead about covering lines of attack with minimal effort to create openings that you can exploit. That made sense to me. And when time came for contact, I was often greatly disappointed by those who focused on 45 degree turns of wrists and whatnot if they couldn't cover the center. Now, I'm not sayinig that all SD students are great fighters. What I'm saying is that the principles I was taught by my Sifu served me well. There are plenty of forms collectors in the SD system.

Anyways, I find it disturbing that GM Sin co-opted names for forms that he created (as you just clarified for me, JP). That pretty much erases any chance that GM The' has any credibility whatsoever.

But since I'm not looking to become a licensed operator of a SD/CSC school, I can't say that it bothers me too much. The forms are "created" and "original" according to GM The' (which is doublespeak, plain and simple), but I can and do utilize them for martial purposes. I get what I wanted out of training--self-defense [which is a good offense].

Here's where it's annoying. When asked what style I study, I can't simply say "Shangtung black tiger" without the quotation marks. It now has two meanings.

[Judge Pen]

When I started cross-training in other styles/MA's, part of the reason was to test what I knew against what other teachers were doing. I didn't particularly care if GM Sin "created" his forms out of thin air based on his previous MA experience, since you can't test these in ay other way than putting up your skills against opponents. Part of it was to test the quality of his techniques and what I had received from my Sifu.

I don't take much from any horse's mouth, so I like to test things. At some CMA schools I saw more focus on technique and posture. I wasn't used to so much nitpicking about particular turns of a wrist during a form. Often, in SD, you learn to block with a particular handform, and you cover the line---it's not about a 45 degree turn of the wrist, but instead about covering lines of attack with minimal effort to create openings that you can exploit. That made sense to me. And when time came for contact, I was often greatly disappointed by those who focused on 45 degree turns of wrists and whatnot if they couldn't cover the center. Now, I'm not sayinig that all SD students are great fighters. What I'm saying is that the principles I was taught by my Sifu served me well. There are plenty of forms collectors in the SD system.

Anyways, I find it disturbing that GM Sin co-opted names for forms that he created (as you just clarified for me, JP). That pretty much erases any chance that GM The' has any credibility whatsoever.

But since I'm not looking to become a licensed operator of a SD/CSC school, I can't say that it bothers me too much. The forms are "created" and "original" according to GM The' (which is doublespeak, plain and simple), but I can and do utilize them for martial purposes. I get what I wanted out of training--self-defense [which is a good offense].

Here's where it's annoying. When asked what style I study, I can't simply say "Shangtung black tiger" without the quotation marks. It now has two meanings.

I can say that I share your experiences with cross-training. I never felt that my SD training was "superior" to the stuff I learned elsewhere, or to the people that I sparred nor did I feel that it was inferior or that I was outclassed. I thought it served me well enough.

[wenshu]

I drank tea this morning but I am calling it coffee. Why? Because liquid is liquid right?

Actually, it wasn't really tea either. It was tepid dishwater but I'm still calling it coffee (that was really tea) because I don't want to have to admit to myself that I just wasted my entire morning drinking tepid dishwater.

[hskwarrior]

Now, I'm not sayinig that all SD students are great fighters. What I'm saying is that the principles I was taught by my Sifu served me well. There are plenty of forms collectors in the SD system.

is there any GOOD video of SD fighting? i'm sure ALL of us want to see good fighting, even if it comes from SD. So, post it up. :D

[Shaolindynasty]

At some CMA schools I saw more focus on technique and posture. I wasn't used to so much nitpicking about particular turns of a wrist during a form. Often, in SD, you learn to block with a particular handform, and you cover the line---it's not about a 45 degree turn of the wrist, but instead about cove


The "nitpicking" of technique and posture are essential to learning the correct structure of the movements. With the correct sturcture you can maximixe the effeciency of your defense and maximize execution of power. I was struck by this difference when I began training in choy lay fut after I left my "kungrate" school. If the instructor doesnt show you the importance of such details it can seem like "nitpicking" but usually those details are important. Luckily I was told the why of the details from day one once I started clf. Later I understood my 1st sifu didnt teach me about structure because he didnt know





2 problems with that. If I ask my classmates to spar with me so that I can post a vid online in order to show a bunch of online pundits that people in our art can fight, I'll fet turned down. I've asked before and got zero affirmative a.


Why? we do it all the time

[Empty_Cup]

The long and short of it is that important details are important. It's pointless to make a blanket statement that all details are important and sifus who don't dictate what angle your pinky finger is in know nothing.

[Shaolindynasty]

It's pointless to make a blanket statement that all details are important and sifus who don't dictate what angle your pinky finger is in know nothing.



I'm only speaking on my own experience

[JSE]

Been lurking for quite some time. Finally registered. Seemed like a good time as it appears there is actually some constructive discussion taking place.

Salutations.

[kwaichang]

Tepid water if it tastes good, is good, some people call coffee and tea just dirty water. and there is no caffein in Tepid water. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

The long and short of it is that important details are important. It's pointless to make a blanket statement that all details are important and sifus who don't dictate what angle your pinky finger is in know nothing.

Lol. Very well put.

I tend to think that the microscopists are trying hard to explain something important, but they overemphasize the importance of too many issues peripheral to the problem addressed.

[Shaolin Wookie]

At some point a teacher has to simply stand back and say: "Look, you're going to have to just practice this over and over until you get the feeling for it." The microscopists simply don't want to stand back far enough. Give a student enough time, and he'll generally come around to the right position.

Now, if we're talking about a teacher who does forms for competition, I understand that the infinitessimals of a turn of hand count for something. They just don't count for much outside of that context.

I'm talking external arts here, not so much the internal, where infinitessimals do count to a greater degree. AT some point, however, every MA needs rote motions and instincts that have raw power and very basic principles behind them.

[Judge Pen]

Does anyone know the full name of Sin The's father? Does anyone know the full name of Sin The's Mother? Does anyone know the name of his mother's jewelery store in Bandung? Does anyone know the name of his father's textile company?

[themeecer]

I just got word that I am going to be laid off from Lexmark for the second time in 5 years. So I am going to have more time to do some arm chair shaolin. Actually, I believe I am going to start another round of P90X the Monday after I am laid off.

[Syn7]

So did she or did she not deserve her rank? What is the ranking based on? Martial ability or performance value, or both? If it's martial ability or both, how did she get so far? Nothing is more dangerous in a combat scenario than an overestimation of ones own skills. If people are promoted beyond what is earned, they are being set up for an ugly fall. It should be criminal.

So again, I ask, does it cost more for classes and testing when you reach the higher levels?

How much is the training? How much is the testing (a concept I wholeheartedly disagree with)?


Windmilling makes me think of the Simpsons when Bart and Lisa go at it.

So ....???

You wanna know if a University is good? You go look at where the grads end up. That will show the quality of instruction and the soundness of the program itself.

How does somebody who doesn't understand combat become a BB in SD? I have to say, a good part of the reason why people keep repeating critique is because it never gets addressed. I have asked this question like 10 times and only JP has given me anything resembling a coherent response.

[Shaolin Wookie]

So ....???

You wanna know if a University is good? You go look at where the grads end up. That will show the quality of instruction and the soundness of the program itself.

How does somebody who doesn't understand combat become a BB in SD? I have to say, a good part of the reason why people keep repeating critique is because it never gets addressed. I have asked this question like 10 times and only JP has given me anything resembling a coherent response.

Same way some traditional studwnts who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag wind up as closed door students. They put in time and effort, and are rewarded as teachers see fit. Definition of Kung fu, after all.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Same way some traditional studwnts who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag wind up as closed door students. They put in time and effort, and are rewarded as teachers see fit. Definition of Kung fu, after all.
Syn. Would u say that all black belts are of equal skill?

[Syn7]

Syn. Would u say that all black belts are of equal skill?

No, but I would say that all BB should meet a minimum and combat awareness should be a part of that.


As for the other post, way to go all defensive on me. I have no problem knocking any school that promotes anything but skill. "Closed door" has very little to do with actual skill. Some share, some don't, that's all.
Can you answer the question now? Please!

I'm especially interested on the economic questions. Do you pay more for advanced classes and testing than you do in the lower levels?

At my school all pay the same fee and skill level is based on actual skill rather than ranking. There is a pecking order, but it is about time in, not skill out. But it's very informal. Sifu will just choose whoever he sees in the room that is most qualified for the teaching task he has in mind. Senior brothers typically know more than juniors, but not always. Some move on in life and don't put in as much and juniors will pass them in skill yet they will still be junior to his senior. Know what I mean?

In SD is there any concept of Sifu, sigung, sisook etc etc?

[Judge Pen]

So ....???

You wanna know if a University is good? You go look at where the grads end up. That will show the quality of instruction and the soundness of the program itself.

How does somebody who doesn't understand combat become a BB in SD? I have to say, a good part of the reason why people keep repeating critique is because it never gets addressed. I have asked this question like 10 times and only JP has given me anything resembling a coherent response.

Maybe only 10% of SD students reach BB. Of that, maybe half of that have a real understanding of combat. Unfortunately, most schools are lowering their standards to keep students, and revenue. This is a problem with many martial arts schools. You have rent then you have to pay rent and all too often that means lowering standards or changing the way you teach. This is not unique to SD.

The ideal is a dedicated teacher that can teach without overhead. That exists, but it is hard to find. Good for those that have found that. For the rest of us, we get out of it what we put in and the style and rank suffer for the rest.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Progressive testing costs, club dues are fixed ( and lower than any club I've ever been part of, with 6-7 days open for training). Club hours and dues are at discretion of teachers, from what the deposition says anyways.

[Syn7]

And of course JP steps in with sensible words.

So how much were your monthly fees, Wook?

Do you guys use any CMA kinship terminology or is it all JMA style?

I guess it depends on what you want to accomplish. You don't need anything but space, a good teacher and partners to train with. Maybe some mats for the kids. The rest is just dressing. Sand bags and simple weapons are quite cheap. I understand why some want to have a MA sportsplex with all the trimming, but the trade off is that they have to compromise themselves in order to afford it more times than not. Is it worth it? Well, that depends on your goals. If you want to learn to fight or do performance styles you don't need all that. If you want to attract part timers and people caught up in the whole image thing, then you need all those frills.

I can do a full body workout with a floor, some elastics, small weights and a rope. Very cheap compared to those who pay thousands a year to go to a high grade facility. But the output doesn't change. It's all about how much work you do, not what neat toys you use.

[Shaolin Wookie]

And of course JP steps in with sensible words.

So how much were your monthly fees, Wook?

Do you guys use any CMA kinship terminology or is it all JMA style?

I guess it depends on what you want to accomplish. You don't need anything but space, a good teacher and partners to train with. Maybe some mats for the kids. The rest is just dressing. Sand bags and simple weapons are quite cheap. I understand why some want to have a MA sportsplex with all the trimming, but the trade off is that they have to compromise themselves in order to afford it more times than not. Is it worth it? Well, that depends on your goals. If you want to learn to fight or do performance styles you don't need all that. If you want to attract part timers and people caught up in the whole image thing, then you need all those frills.

I can do a full body workout with a floor, some elastics, small weights and a rope. Very cheap compared to those who pay thousands a year to go to a high grade facility. But the output doesn't change. It's all about how much work you do, not what neat toys you use.

All terminology is CMA, as are uniforms. 1/2 train in shoes. Exceptions = the two-man sparring forms called "ippons," and sometimes forms are called "katas" by some students/teachers. It's not a "dojo," but a school, or "kwoon." Most of the arts are referenced well--you learn the chinese terms for your forms, if they have terms to learn that aren't in English.

Every Sunday/Saturday morning I do a killer 1 hr. workout with elastics, pushup bars, kettle bells, and medicine balls before class. Keeps me moderately swoll. I borrowed some of my workout routines from P90X and Insanity, to be honest. They got me results, and fast.;)

Anyways, as for fees--that's the kind of info no teacher prefers to broadcast on the internet, since it discourages people from coming into the school to find out more.;) I'll respect that fact and plead the fifth.

[Syn7]

All terminology is CMA, as are uniforms. 1/2 train in shoes. Exceptions = the two-man sparring forms called "ippons," and sometimes forms are called "katas" by some students/teachers. It's not a "dojo," but a school, or "kwoon." Most of the arts are referenced well--you learn the chinese terms for your forms, if they have terms to learn that aren't in English.

Every Sunday/Saturday morning I do a killer 1 hr. workout with elastics, pushup bars, kettle bells, and medicine balls before class. Keeps me moderately swoll. I borrowed some of my workout routines from P90X and Insanity, to be honest. They got me results, and fast.;)

Anyways, as for fees--that's the kind of info no teacher prefers to broadcast on the internet, since it discourages people from coming into the school to find out more.;) I'll respect that fact and plead the fifth.

OK well my sifu charges 60 a month. But if you can't pay, it's all good. He'll teach you anyways. Some of the kids parents choose to pay more. Like a donation. But then we use donated space and are highly involved in the local Chinatown community. Lot's of giving and taking going on. Overall, it works out pretty well.

What about CMA kinship terminology?

Insanity looks like a good workout. I have a similar routine.

[brucereiter]

So ....???

You wanna know if a University is good? You go look at where the grads end up. That will show the quality of instruction and the soundness of the program itself.

How does somebody who doesn't understand combat become a BB in SD? I have to say, a good part of the reason why people keep repeating critique is because it never gets addressed. I have asked this question like 10 times and only JP has given me anything resembling a coherent response.

its pretty obvious. sin the earns his income from testing fees. time and money get you the rank with minimal understanding.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Two lousy cats and a snoring, pregnant wife kept me up this morning.:mad:


So, I was thinking. For those who still believe that Sin The' is capable of telling the truth (and I do think this, since everyone can admit that they're wrong):


Imagine he were to come out tomorrow and tell you that he learned his mantis from Je Shou Fu, or that he learned his bird systems from Liu Su Peng, nevermind what his deposition states. He tells you about CHung Yen, multiple teachers, and thus slightly contradicts his prior stories, but not entirely----just enough to make them shape-up in your mind.

Would you have any reason to believe him? Or, would you assume that he was lying (or that he had read this thread)? And do you suspect he would stop at the believable claims, or continue on to extraordinary ones?

If he can't recall what he taught between '65 and '90, and if he misrepresented everything that he did between '65 and '90 in the 90's, why in the hell should anyone trust that he can recall what he did between '55 and '65? And why would you have any reason to believe him now?

Now, I always suspected that 1) the lineage was false, if not fake (i.e., difference between stories received from Ie vs. reality---hence my avatar and name here), 2) that nobody could take GM The's claims in his books without a grain of salt, and 3) that GM The' was a fabricator, but I also thought that there was enough correspondence between what he taught (Lian Wu Zhang, Jie Quan) and variations of those forms elswhere to suggest that he had learned something from someone, at some time.

In this situation, though, given the deposition's "revelations," I wouldn't trust him even if he confirmed what I suspect was true about his training in Indonesia (and his command of 5 languages, LOL, when he hasn't mastered this one).
__________________________________________________ ________

Sidenote: As a thought experiment, consider the following scenario. I'm on a blackbelt test that GM The' is officiating. He asks me to perform the adaptive drunken immortal form. Instead, I break out into the Longfist routines that I learned five or six years ago from a different teacher outside the art. GM The' gets a little confused at what I'm doing and stops the test.

"What are you doing?" he asks.

I say, "the Adaptive Drunken Immortal."

He says, "That's not the Adaptive Drunken Immortal."

I say, "Okay, it's actually Longfist. I learned it from a book."

He says, "That's actually good, if you learned it from a book."

I say, "I didn't learn it from a book, I learned it from my Longfist teacher. His name was Chop Suey."

He says, "That's a strange name."

I say, "His name isn't really Chop Suey."

[Shaolin Wookie]

He says, "I didn't think it was. That's a really silly name. What is your name?"

I say, "James Dalton."

He says, "Well, Mr. Dalton, if you don't mind getting back to the test, I'd like to see what you know."

I say, "Actually, James Dalton was the name of the character that Patrick Swayze played in the movie Roadhouse."
__________________________________________________ ______________

After being caught in so many fabrications, why should he believe anything I say?

__________________________________________________ _______________

[Continued}


He says, "The form, sir, the form. Let's get back to the test."

I say, "How do I know that this is adaptive drunken immortal and not Longfist?"

He says, "Because that's its name."

I then pull out his deposition and point to the section where he admits to having created names for some 30-50 forms. I also pull out Jim Halliday's book and point to contradictory info--the Shaolin inheritance, so to speak.

I say, "I beg to differ, sir. It says here that you created the names for many of your forms."

He says, "That's all just a misunderstanding. And it was only a court case, if you catch my drift. There's lots of misrepresentation in a court case. You're trying to win, and often you have to kick someone in the nuts to win."

I say, "I'll grant that, but is the misunderstanding yours or mine?"

He says, "Yours."

I say, "Perhaps you can enlighten me, then."

He then tells me personally about his training, confirming the suspicions I had all along.

__________________________________________________ ________________________
Why should I believe him, if I am quicker to solve his misunderstanding than he is.

__________________________________________________ ________________________

I say, "That's a great story. Where did this adaptive drunken immortal form come from? Did you create it, was it passed down from GM Ie or one of your Indonesian teachers, or did you learn it from a book?"

He says, "A bit of each, to be honest."

I say, "Then you're not being honest. You're either 1) trying to believe your own falsehood, 2) making stuff up to avoid admitting that you don't know, or 3) very confused."

HE says, "Trust me."

I say, "Why? You lied, or at least misrepresented, what you do in print--multiple times, in person, and under oath. You can't be right in all scenarios."

He says, "But that doesn't mean all of it is wrong."

I say, "And thus I have no reason to believe anything that you have to say. If you don't mind, I think I'll finish this adaptive drunken form for the test."

I then finish my Longfist routine and ask him for a black belt.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Who is more absurd in the preceding scenario?

Answer: Both are partially right, and both are partly wrong, but one clearly has made a valid point.

GM The' can't fix his error this time. 10 strikes and you're out, sir.

Those who think the reductio ad absurdum is not a valid medium for making an argument can take my word for it that it is in fact a sound medium for argumentation--I teach Quantum Physics in middle school. I can fax you syllabi, give you student emails (I won't, since that would be illegal, but I could in theory), and even invite you to a class when I get back to teaching after the wife has our daughter. You don't have to just "Trust" me. Logic is universally sound.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I just lied. I teach rhetoric, logic, and grammar in college, and my wife is having a boy.

Or is this, too, a lie? You'd have to know me to find out, and only those who know me could know the truth if I state 1000 falsehoods to the contrary. But, assuming a fellow SD practitioner could in fact know me and whether (as well as what) I teach and have a pregnant wife, could they know which forms were fabricated, and which were primarily original?

LOL. Logic is a *****. A personal history with GM The' can't solve this lovely conundrum.

[Syn7]

Wow... Just wow!

[shen ku]

i want to know one thing wook.... what the he// did you eat for breakfast to your brain work like that this early on a saturday... or was it the no sleep ??

[hskwarrior]

lmao!!!!!!!!

[wenshu]

Logic is universally sound.

If logic is universally sound why do all of your arguments selectively disregard fundamentally provable propositions?

p^~p

It either is bull**** or it isn't bull****.

Community college rhetoric 100 isn't sufficient to obfuscate that one small terse fact.

Perhaps it's time to admit to yourselves that you just like yourselves some bull****.

Q.E.D *****es

[tattooedmonk]

If logic is universally sound why do all of your arguments selectively disregard fundamentally provable propositions?

p^~p

It either is bull**** or it isn't bull****.

Community college rhetoric 100 isn't sufficient to obfuscate that one small terse fact.

Perhaps it's time to admit to yourselves that you just like yourselves some bull****.

Q.E.D *****estalk about the pot calling the kettle black. I see you dump more bullsh!t here than anyone else, with all your fancy talk and cr@p.....it doesn't make you sound educated and intellectual , it makes you sound like a pompous @$$.

get over yourself, get off your high horse, and pull the stick out of your @$$.:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

If logic is universally sound why do all of your arguments selectively disregard fundamentally provable propositions?

p^~p

It either is bull**** or it isn't bull****.

Community college rhetoric 100 isn't sufficient to obfuscate that one small terse fact.

Perhaps it's time to admit to yourselves that you just like yourselves some bull****.

Q.E.D *****es
Here's a bit of knowledge for you. You are trying to argue, but you don't have the correct form. What you posed is a false dilemma. Do you know what material is truly original or what was made up? Sorry, you don't. The first rule in logic, as well as in Kung fu, is that one must know one's limits.

Okay, you believe it to be bull****. I suspect some of it is classical, or was at a given time. Beliefs and suspicions are not the province of logic.

Here's a bit of irony for you--- you may know some ****, but you have no formal understanding of argumentation. Your suspicions may be correct, but your arguments are the wrong ones. If you don't like that I shoot down your objections and often play devil's advocate, it is because you don't know how to think clearly.


Try harder grasshopper.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Symbolic logic is like mathematical economics. Keynesians have tried to prove that expansion of the monetary base (I.e., inflation) makes us all richer. Drink the Koop-aid, chief. Symbols are a poor substitute for words, since they can only represent concepts on a tertiary level.

But you're probably a universal empiricist. Knowledge is democratic, right? Consensus based? And who decides what is pure knowledge in a vote of the statistical variety? Well, a force of numbers. He said she said. Not exactly a good position to take when posing false dilemmas to solve he said she said debates.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Either all things are true or all things are false. If this statement is true, then all things are true. But if all things are false, then this statement must be false, right? Wait, but then the part about all things being false is actually true, and so the purely skeptical conclusion that all things are false cannot be true.

You'd get an "F" in one of my classes, Wenshu.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Now add empirical content. The best conclusion you can reach is that GM the cannot resolve the true/false dichotomy. You'd have to trust him or distrust him universally. I'm not willing to jump to one extreme or the other. Some of his claims are true, some false. Which is which? You now need more evidence. We don't have it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Oh, and I forgot. Because GM The' lied under oath, he can no longer be cited as a reliable source. This doesn't negate everything he's said. It removes him from the equation. His words are now mere sounds, lacking a firm basis. This sounds cold, but it is what it is. He made his bed and whatnot

[Syn7]

No, no, no. You're not thinking. You're just being logical!!!

[Judge Pen]

I believe that Truth exists outside of human experience. It is absolute and it is not relative. It just is. No human knows truth because their perception of truth is always clouded by the limitations of their objectivity and their own self-serving ego. When I try a case, we seek the perspective of the truth that best serves our client's interests. So does my opponent. It is up to a jury to determine what is closest to the truth (although their conclusions are only the best approximation of 12 people's perception). It isn't ideal, but it's the best we have.

[Syn7]

I don't think truth is subject to perception. You can spin all day, but it doesn't change what is.

Facts on the other hand, they are VERY subjective.


"The difference between fact and truth is that facts can be intepreted in different ways. Truth cannot"

[Judge Pen]

I don't think truth is subject to perception. You can spin all day, but it doesn't change what is.

Facts on the other hand, they are VERY subjective.

That is what I'm trying to say. I think our ability to perceive the truth is based on or own subjective limitations.

[Syn7]

That is what I'm trying to say. I think our ability to perceive the truth is based on or own subjective limitations.

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin




“and the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.” - Anais Nin

[Shaolin Wookie]

Strange turn of conversation, I guess.

But here's a universal truth not open to modes of perception or any kind of refutation:

"Subjects predicate."

In order to know something---anything--you need a subject term (of the actor/causal category) and an action (entailing a concept of action embedded in a verb [to be, to know, to falsify] and usually some kind of object that is utilized as a means in a human operation information."]

Once you accept these terms, and you have to (every operation of your mind requires a subject [namely, "you"] who engages in a course of action [namely, piecing together other subjects and predicates] directed at some kind of end/goal [namely, to "know" something subjectively useful or true])---again, once you accept these principles, then you also have to admit that all actions have beginning and end points, and so time is synthetic a priori-----a precondition for human intelligence, logical operations of the mind, and action itself.

Since you cannot imagine anything that operates outside of time and space (though theologians regularly try to do this), then you must also admit that space is synthetic a priori--- a precondition for knowledge. How can actions happen in no time, or no space? They can't, or else you contradict yourself. Imagining actions in no space and no time requires you to act in no space and no time, but your actions are always in space and time.

So, why can all knowledge NOT be boiled down to purely empirical things? Think about a tsunami. Tsunamis do not know beginning and end points of generation. They don't know anything. In order for you to know about tsunamis, you need evidence. But you can't examine nature-in-itself, as it is in its entirety, because you are not a god. You have to select beginning and end points of relevant sectors of information. You then examine nature and say: "Why did nature turn out this way rather than it would have in another way." You presuppose a kind of regularity in the concatenation of phenomena, and then try to find causal factors that lead to tsunamis.

During this whole process, the a priori framework of mind (or, the logical structure of mind) that I outlined above remains in operation.

I just gave you the theoretical model for mind that will help you slash through academic bull**** like a hot knife through butter.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Now, for empirical truth.

Empirical truth does not exist. It can get to a small margin of error--say, like Quantum Physics. A priori truth does exist---I just gave you an irrefutable theory of mind. (and I will enjoy watching a flurry of posts to the contrary, because all of them will be phrased in the subject predicate standard, and anyone who says--that's just grammar--will of course be utilizing subjects and predicates on a conceptual level as well, and will presuppose the necessity of space and time). They are also, as subjects, individuals engaged in the action of refutation because they woudl prefer to believe one thing rather than another out of a subjective preference----and now we're in the province of theoretical economics.

Now, consider the recent turn in discusssion in Global Warming debates. "There's consensus," the partisans of anthropogenic global warming cry. "The science is in."

What they ignore is that even people who agree that there is very likely a margin of manmade global warming (like myself) will argue that you don't get to imagine a static state of climate, and then work towards the variables for change. Climate is, by denotation, a variable. To work out the variables for change, then you need to imagine that climate is steady, but it is never steady. Now, scientists go out and get temperature records from ice cores in order to form statistical aggregates (much like Keynesians form statistcal aggregates of spending and then fret over GDP, when wealth is actually measured by the ratio of goods and services in a society to the number of units of a medium of exchange [i.e., money]). So, at what point is climate steady? Dullards point to the calendar and say--it's colder at this point in the season than it was three thousand years ago. The fault is that a calendar is fixed and predictable, climate is not.

Before the Industrial Revolution, climate was in a Little Ice Age. Things warmed up, eventually. And then the Industrial Revolution hit. How much warming was due to natural warming (the end of a little ice age) and how much was manmade? What are the margins here, and what would climate have been had there not been an IR? Nobody can say because we have no facts---we only have statistical aggregates of climate and aggregates of human information. Statistics are historical information---not theoretical information. Cannot reason inductively here.

There are so many logical fallacies at work in such debates, that they're actually quite fun to debunk and pick apart, because such "GREAT MINDS" are at work upon them.

There are many intelligent people who believe that Hurricane KAtrina and Sandy were caused by Global Warming. But hurricanes and storms exist independently of manmade global warming (whatever small margin that is). And nobody blames storms that do not hit large centers of human popluation upon Global Warming. We tend to fixate upon "human affairs" and "human disasters." Nobody worries about every storm in Antarctic waters. They're of little importance in the small picture, but probably of larger importance in the big picture (for any all-encompassing study of climate change), and we don't care much about them because nobody except a couple of hippies ever stakes out a claim down there.


But of course, haters will think I'm just a schill for some big oil company.:D I haven't studied the science enough to be able to overcome logical fallices in a barrage of statistics.

[sean_stonehart]

In SD is there any concept of Sifu, sigung, sisook etc etc?

In large part, not really since it's rank based instead of TCMA family tree based. At the school I was at (which is the same one Wook is at now), it's still rank based, but there's a little deference given to people who are recognized as "old timers" as it were, regardless of stripes on the belts.

You hear the term "sifu" all the time, but again that's a "position" that can be awarded & removed within schools at a certain level of rank & accomplishment. Not the old, "one school, one sifu". But to mitigate my statement, as with any MA, there are those who deserve the title and would have in ANY MA they chose to practice. There are those you look at going "WTF??".

But the traditional layout, not so much that I've encountered.

[kwaichang]

I am in Clarks ville training 101st for a friend. So there is a combat component, If I were training senior citizens or children i would teach the Art, If someone wants to learn to fight I teach that , if they want to learn forms I teach that. Everyone is different and should not be held to the same standard. If they are improving as they progress then they get a Black Belt or Sash that is what is important. Everyone has different expectations and desires when training. Otherwise if a Form for BB level has the split in it should I not reward you for trying, even if you cant do the split? Its about trying and effort not kicking butt all the time. Few if any would progress otherwise. KC

[kwaichang]

Sifu to me is like Sensei, one who teaches, in SD where I was 3rd BB and above was Sifu. KC

[Judge Pen]

Wook, that all sounds like academic bull**** to me. :p

[Judge Pen]

I am in Clarks ville training 101st for a friend. So there is a combat component, If I were training senior citizens or children i would teach the Art, If someone wants to learn to fight I teach that , if they want to learn forms I teach that. Everyone is different and should not be held to the same standard. If they are improving as they progress then they get a Black Belt or Sash that is what is important. Everyone has different expectations and desires when training. Otherwise if a Form for BB level has the split in it should I not reward you for trying, even if you cant do the split? Its about trying and effort not kicking butt all the time. Few if any would progress otherwise. KC

True, but when you teach a general class, like most SD classes are, then everyone should have a basic understanding of marital principles, aestic principles and health prinicples. But only a few really seem to get the marial aspect of the art.

[Empty_Cup]

True, but when you teach a general class, like most SD classes are, then everyone should have a basic understanding of marital principles, aestic principles and health prinicples. But only a few really seem to get the marial aspect of the art.

I disagree with you here. This would make it seem like schools don't train with any concept of application which is not the norm from what I've seen in at least 4 schools.

[Kellen Bassette]

So what your saying Wookie, is...

We can't claim that the earth is warming or cooling based on 30 year averages, because it is impossible to know a true average climate without taking into consideration the entire history of the earth?? Is it somehow ridiculous to say any of the non-uniform warming in the past century and a half was caused by the industrial revolution, simply because doing so requires one to discount the Little Ice Age, erase several centuries from existence and ignore the fact that the glaciers that we are melting began receding 100 years before the industrial revolution?!

Do you mean to tell me that it's absurd to claim "the lowest amount of sea ice ever" in the Arctic summer, simply because we are basing that claim on 40 years of satellite data while ignoring the fact that higher average temperatures were actually observed in the region during the 1930's and 40's than in the 90's to the present?? Are you suggesting we should include the great break up of sea ice in 1815, into this discussion??

This a slippery slope you want us to travel sir! If we stop claiming every hurricane and snowstorm as the freak, unprecedented results of a climate that is more extreme than "ever", ("ever" being the past century "scientifically" and the past 30 years colloquially,) how will we account for the fossilized plant life above the Arctic circle, glaciers in Kansas, the mild climate of southern Greenland and Labrador a millennium ago, the subsequent freezing of the North Atlantic or the incredible summer droughts and severe winters of New England in the 17th and 18th centuries?

Simply because the experts suggested in the 70's that an Ice age was inevitable, then in the 80's that NYC would be lost to rising ocean levels by 2000, does not mean we shouldn't believe that the Himalayan glaciers will be totally gone in 18 years, or question the "science" of blaming rising sea levels for the sinking of small delta islands, merely because if it were from rising sea levels than all islands at that elevation world wide would have been lost.

Yes, we've retracted the argument that our brightest minds offered about the loss of sea ice flooding the east coast, when lay people disproved this theory with a glass of water and ice cubes, but the new idea of the massive Greenland ice cap, sliding off the land into the ocean must be taken seriously!

Simply because actual observed data has shown an increase in the Antarctic sea ice, does not mean we can quit saying it's melting on every weather related news bite out there!! Think of the consequences! The average annual temperature is 70 below zero, take into to consideration a global temperature rise of 1 degree per century, assume this trend will last forever, unchanging, ignore the fact that temperatures aren't observing this trend in the Antarctic, calculate how long it will take for temperatures to rise above freezing, then how long it will take to melt 15,000 feet of ice...we, sir, could very well lose the ice cap in the next 78 billion years!!!!!

How dare you question the integrity of the "scientists" competing for the funding of these studies which require completely ignoring all world history before 1850??!!

You are obviously an ignorant, uneducated, religious fanatic. Everyone point and laugh.

[Kellen Bassette]

Not that anyone cares, but my bit on the average annual temperature was referring to the South Pole area, not the entire Antarctic Continent, just realized I didn't clarify that and I don't want to be party to spreading misinformation...

Now, in other related Chinese martial arts matters....

[Judge Pen]

I disagree with you here. This would make it seem like schools don't train with any concept of application which is not the norm from what I've seen in at least 4 schools.

No they train with applications, but I only think a small percentage get the concepts and how to make them work for them against resisting opponents. I do not think this is unique to SD schools, but to many TMA schools. You have a base of students of varying skill and a few really good students.

[wenshu]

you have no formal understanding of argumentation. Your suspicions may be correct, but your arguments are the wrong ones. If you don't like that I shoot down your objections and often play devil's advocate, it is because you don't know how to think clearly.

Apparently the extent of your formal understanding is name checking a bunch of heavyweight ideas without anything substantive whatsoever. This useless exercise in intellectual vanity is fun and all but come on, its all just masturbatory misdirection.

It's very simple, point to some content that demonstrates this supposed effective core of Shaolin Do. It's either legit or it isn't regardless of what Sin The did and didn't say or do.


Symbolic logic is like mathematical economics. Keynesians have tried to prove that expansion of the monetary base (I.e., inflation) makes us all richer. Drink the Koop-aid, chief. Symbols are a poor substitute for words, since they can only represent concepts on a tertiary level.

Language is symbols, slim.

Math is as natural a language as English.

There are plenty of shortcomings and arguments against the Keynesian School, but at least it actually starts from the basis of measurement and isn't just a wishy washy fabrication of idealistic axioms with no grounding in the real world whatsoever.



But you're probably a universal empiricist. Knowledge is democratic, right? Consensus based? And who decides what is pure knowledge in a vote of the statistical variety? Well, a force of numbers. He said she said. Not exactly a good position to take when posing false dilemmas to solve he said she said debates.

Subjective Idealism is such a cop out. "Truth doesn't exist so you can't prove anything."


Either all things are true or all things are false. If this statement is true, then all things are true. But if all things are false, then this statement must be false, right? Wait, but then the part about all things being false is actually true, and so the purely skeptical conclusion that all things are false cannot be true.

You'd get an "F" in one of my classes, Wenshu.

Ohh the liars paradox. You got me.

I wouldn't be anywhere near your class; ESL ain't in my requirements. That's because I study **** that has real world usefulness like engineering, linguistics and biology and would not waste hundreds of thousands on an education just so I could spend all day trying to bed impressionable co ed undergrads with useless pontificating about subjective idealism and post modernism.

I can name drop big ideas too, watch:

Any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. In particular, for any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory.

How are you synthetic judgements apriori possible?



The best conclusion you can reach is that GM the cannot resolve the true/false dichotomy. You'd have to trust him or distrust him universally. I'm not willing to jump to one extreme or the other. Some of his claims are true, some false. Which is which? You now need more evidence. We don't have it.

It's not about trust, truth, theories of knowledge, quantum mechanics or Hegelian phenomenology. It's about the claim that there is some bad ass effective core to Shaolin Do. And you still can't even demonstrate something as simple as that. All you offer is more community college dorm room smoke out level equivocation about Aristotelian Epistemology and Kantian metaphysics



"Subjects predicate."
I just gave you the theoretical model for mind that will help you slash through academic bull**** like a hot knife through butter.

lolwut? you****ingkidding me or what? you high?

Instead of actually just presenting some simple evidence of the claim that there is something legitimate at Shaolin Do's core, you offer tens of thousands of useless characters about epistemology and metaphysics when all you have to do is post some ****ing content demonstrating this supposed effective core Shaolin Do.

[wenshu]

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin
“and the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.” - Anais Nin

Ever read Delta of Venus (http://seriesofhopes.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/nin-anais-delta-of-venus.pdf)? Holy **** balls that's some messed up, twisted ****.

[wenshu]

Once you accept these terms, and you have to (every operation of your mind requires a subject [namely, "you"] who engages in a course of action [namely, piecing together other subjects and predicates] directed at some kind of end/goal [namely, to "know" something subjectively useful or true])---again, once you accept these principles, then you also have to admit that all actions have beginning and end points, and so time is synthetic a priori-----a precondition for human intelligence, logical operations of the mind, and action itself.

Not only are you outright plagiarizing Hegel, you somehow found a way to make the prose even more bloated, imprecise and tiresome. I didn't think that was possible.

[One student]

Next thing I knew, GM The' was pushing me back up against the wall, telling me that I was out of control.

I was a bit angry at the moment because GM The' was totally off-base there. I was the only one who was in control. I threw only two punches, landed them right on target amidst a flurry of windmilling limbs, and spared my partner real damage. I was kind, patient, and sparing.

It really put a damper on the evening when I was sent to the corner to watch the rest of the affair, sitting Indian style on the floor.


Anyways, it was the only time my wife has ever attended one of my MA events (outside of a demo this year). She ridicules me for this. She never saw me training MMA or BJJ, and so doesn't really know that I can actually kick some serious ass when it comes down to it.

Every time we're watching an action flick and some small skinny chick starts kicking some male ass, my wife looks at me and says: "So, do you think you could beat her up?"

Did it have anything to do with whatever head/face contact rules were in effect? Or maybe an expectation of exercising more restraint against maybe a perceived lesser-skilled opponent? A perception of other ways of handling the scenario? I don't know, I wasn't there (that I know of), just asking. I know there was a time when excessive or even any face or head contact was not allowed in some settings. In a sparring class with GMS I had side of my face blackened pretty good, he asked if I was alright and when I said yes we just went on.

[Syn7]

This is all starting to look like an intellectual circle jerk.

[wenshu]

This is all starting to look like an intellectual circle jerk.

starting to?

You say this now?

Compared to what? The run of the mill circle jerk that was going on for a thousand pages?

[Syn7]

Ever read Delta of Venus (http://seriesofhopes.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/nin-anais-delta-of-venus.pdf)? Holy **** balls that's some messed up, twisted ****.

Yeah, I liked it. She was way before her time. I imagine good Christians thought she was the devils wife. Smart lady. Much respect.

It may be twisted, but it's more realistic than many would like to admit. You need to understand the context in which it was written. You wanna talk about ****ed up people, "The Collector" fits that bill.

[Syn7]

Yeah but now we have morphed into something that uses words big enough that KC needs to look them up.

[wenshu]

You need to understand the context in which it was written. You wanna talk about ****ed up people, "The Collector" fits that bill.

Miller and her were obviously messing with him.

[Syn7]

Miller and her were obviously messing with him.

I dunno. He was like "don't worry about the skills, just gimme the nasty" so they did both. Nasty with maad skills. Too bad they weren't published till after she died. It would've been cool to get some more commentary about those days directly from her.

It was a paying gig. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the collector, I think she was just trying to stay paid.

[kwaichang]

I dont have to look up big words to see Bull ****. You all talk alot of CRAP. and Thats a small word. That describes alot. I try to teach my kids not to Cuss but sometimes it works better than all your pompous big words. You guys gloat in your own Mentality and are caught up in your own Mental Egos. So I just skipped most of your Bull **** and went to the center and Ripped your hearts out with my little words. KC

[Syn7]

Kisses. :eek:

[wenshu]

You all talk alot of CRAP. and Thats a small word. That describes alot. I try to teach my kids not to Cuss but sometimes it works better than all your pompous big words. You guys gloat in your own Mentality and are caught up in your own Mental Egos. So I just skipped most of your Bull **** and went to the center and Ripped your hearts out with my little words. KC

Says the backwater hillbilly who talks big all day but when it comes to time to put his money where his mouth is conveniently claims "technological difficulties".

[wenshu]

I dunno. He was like "don't worry about the skills, just gimme the nasty" so they did both. Nasty with maad skills. Too bad they weren't published till after she died. It would've been cool to get some more commentary about those days directly from her.

It was a paying gig. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the collector, I think she was just trying to stay paid.

Yeah, they were just trying to eat. I can't recall where I read it, but I think it was explicitly stated that they were ****ing with him.

As for commentary;



Dear Collector,

We hate you.


Doesn't get much clearer than that. Her diaries are absurdly extensive.

[kwaichang]

Since WEn shu " blessyou you did sneeze right" anyway since he cant read i didnt post I was with the 101st working with some of the guys on special tactical training etc. No time to feed your silly little Ego. So maybe next weekend I have 4 days off. BTW I will post one of GMThe maybe 2 but no more. KC

[Syn7]

Yeah, they were just trying to eat. I can't recall where I read it, but I think it was explicitly stated that they were ****ing with him.

As for commentary;



Doesn't get much clearer than that. Her diaries are absurdly extensive.

Yeah, but it would have been nice if she was around when they were published to talk about it some more. I haven't read the diaries. I just read some excerpts and partials used in biographical type pieces. I've got such a long list of must reads. I may or may not get to it lol.

[Syn7]

Since WEn shu " blessyou you did sneeze right" anyway since he cant read i didnt post I was with the 101st working with some of the guys on special tactical training etc. No time to feed your silly little Ego. So maybe next weekend I have 4 days off. BTW I will post one of GMThe maybe 2 but no more. KC

You, my great friend, are a jeenyoos!

[Judge Pen]

Apparently the extent of your formal understanding is name checking a bunch of heavyweight ideas without anything substantive whatsoever. This useless exercise in intellectual vanity is fun and all but come on, its all just masturbatory misdirection.

It's very simple, point to some content that demonstrates this supposed effective core of Shaolin Do. It's either legit or it isn't regardless of what Sin The did and didn't say or do.



Language is symbols, slim.

Math is as natural a language as English.

There are plenty of shortcomings and arguments against the Keynesian School, but at least it actually starts from the basis of measurement and isn't just a wishy washy fabrication of idealistic axioms with no grounding in the real world whatsoever.



Subjective Idealism is such a cop out. "Truth doesn't exist so you can't prove anything."



Ohh the liars paradox. You got me.

I wouldn't be anywhere near your class; ESL ain't in my requirements. That's because I study **** that has real world usefulness like engineering, linguistics and biology and would not waste hundreds of thousands on an education just so I could spend all day trying to bed impressionable co ed undergrads with useless pontificating about subjective idealism and post modernism.

I can name drop big ideas too, watch:

Any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. In particular, for any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory.

How are you synthetic judgements apriori possible?




It's not about trust, truth, theories of knowledge, quantum mechanics or Hegelian phenomenology. It's about the claim that there is some bad ass effective core to Shaolin Do. And you still can't even demonstrate something as simple as that. All you offer is more community college dorm room smoke out level equivocation about Aristotelian Epistemology and Kantian metaphysics



lolwut? you****ingkidding me or what? you high?

Instead of actually just presenting some simple evidence of the claim that there is something legitimate at Shaolin Do's core, you offer tens of thousands of useless characters about epistemology and metaphysics when all you have to do is post some ****ing content demonstrating this supposed effective core Shaolin Do.

I applaud you for typing this many words and not using the word "retard" anywhere. I think you are growing as a person. Seriously, for someone as educated as yourself, it's unnecessary to resort to petty name calling. I always wondered why you did so; there's plenty of ways to point out the evils of SD without resorting to play-ground dialogue. All it does, for many anyway in light of this entire conversation of Truth and subjectivism, is discount your credibility entirely. Just my two cents.

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL. And as I expected, my "made-up" and useless axioms are present in every thought that you just expressed. We may not know everything from the empirical standpoint (we are not gods), but we do know how it is that we know most things.

This also entails that we know how we DO NOT know most things. What you stated with regard to Keynesianism was modest. It is all flaws, no substance. But it is better than a complete system of economics that can, well, predict all the failures of Keynesianism itself?

What you don't realize is that if you don't have a true system of economic thought, rooted in a coherent value theory, then you stumble into theism. If you reject subjective value theory (not universal subjectivism), then you presuppose that there is an objective value setter---a God of value, who predicates all values for human beings in advance of their subjective valuations. But hte problem remains that value is subjective, since I don't even value two units of a good the same. And it is not guaranteed that I will value those units for very long.;) When asked about taxes, I call them theft. When others are asked, some would agree, and some would say they're "club dues." We value the State differently, right? One likes its services more than I. Even Keynesians would be forced to admit this. But then, they might turn to folk psychology, those ****ed animal spirits, or some other silly evasion of the truth.

An empirical theory of econ is, ironically, just a bunch of made-up ****. It is by definition. It's an empirical theory, and the only way to foist it on the public is by cramming it down their throats by centralizing economic activity in the State. It'll work, if only you have faith in the economic planners, they say.

Hmmmmm.....wise move. :rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

Instead of actually just presenting some simple evidence of the claim that there is something legitimate at Shaolin Do's core, you offer tens of thousands of useless characters about epistemology and metaphysics when all you have to do is post some ****ing content demonstrating this supposed effective core Shaolin Do.

Hmmm. The ***** doth protest too much, methinks.

If you want evidence, you have to meet me, I wager. And if I toss you around and armbar or triangle you, you'd just say---Wookie, you don't represent SD. You have other training. Or if I post a good video--same result. Short of a personal meeting, you don't really care. It's just he said she said. This thread is mostly about knocking what we know is not true out of the SD canon. The best thing we can do is chip away at the block.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Not only are you outright plagiarizing Hegel, you somehow found a way to make the prose even more bloated, imprecise and tiresome. I didn't think that was possible.

Just out of curiousity, though. If you don't accept those premises, I think it's safe to say that you believe in an unmoved mover, correct? A subject that acts independent of all action, and might in fact be performing all actions?

The only converse you can take is that if there is a form of action, you must assume a prior cause. That cause may be an intentional cause (a human/animal cause) which changes the course of nature to satisfy an appetite, or that the cause is strictly etiological--it is a cause that is the effect of a prior cause, and whatnot.

What you would have is neither. This is called ignorance.:D


BTW--neither an idealist nor a Hegelian. Contrary to what you may have learned in college, Kant was not an idealist. Hegel was. He may have built upon Kant, but what he introduced was error, not "advancement." Kant was on the right path himself, but veered into some zany asides. Again---it's not either "all right" or "all wrong."

If you reject "axioms" and pursue temporary rearguard actions in reason, then you're...well...a mystic, or a fool.

[Kellen Bassette]

Keynesian Economics are fundamentally flawed. We have plenty enough history to be sure this model is an ineffective exercise in futility. Clinging to this idea is as absurd as the Regan lovers still preaching Trickle Down Economics, in the face of evidence and statistics...

People just got to be able to get over it and move, on....hey we liked the idea, but it don't work in practice, back to the drawing board...no reason to slow down world progress because we can't accept an idea was wrong...just beat that dead horse some more...

You know, Communism looks good on paper, but any reasonable person can see it fails miserably in the real world, because it discounts human nature. The difference with Keynesian Theory is it doesn't even look good on paper. It's just a bad idea and yet another factor contributing to the decline of the west....

[Judge Pen]

Keynesian Economics are fundamentally flawed. We have plenty enough history to be sure this model is an ineffective exercise in futility. Clinging to this idea is as absurd as the Regan lovers still preaching Trickle Down Economics, in the face of evidence and statistics...

People just got to be able to get over it and move, on....hey we liked the idea, but it don't work in practice, back to the drawing board...no reason to slow down world progress because we can't accept an idea was wrong...just beat that dead horse some more...

You know, Communism looks good on paper, but any reasonable person can see it fails miserably in the real world, because it discounts human nature. The difference with Keynesian Theory is it doesn't even look good on paper. It's just a bad idea and yet another factor contributing to the decline of the west....

Nice observations here. Especially on communism discounting human nature.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Did it have anything to do with whatever head/face contact rules were in effect? Or maybe an expectation of exercising more restraint against maybe a perceived lesser-skilled opponent? A perception of other ways of handling the scenario? I don't know, I wasn't there (that I know of), just asking. I know there was a time when excessive or even any face or head contact was not allowed in some settings. In a sparring class with GMS I had side of my face blackened pretty good, he asked if I was alright and when I said yes we just went on.

Here's what I suspect. Everyone is always on adrenaline by the end of an SD test (which is why I generally abhor test "sparring"). You've just done 14 forms, weapons included, and then you spar. Most people get hyped up. I remained pretty calm and exploited a weakness. Is there a better place to hit a chick who you outweigh by 65 pounds when you don't wish to leave a mark---or hurt badly? I couldn't find one in those 10-20 seconds.;) Now, I'm not saying GM The' was wrong for breaking it up. I was myself surprised at the whiplash effect of a punch to the forehead (since nobody with any sense "punches" a forehead intentionally in a realitime scenario). BUt I did have fluffly gloves and I knew that it was a neutral target. What I am saying is that he assessed the problem incorrectly. He probably figured--this guy threw two stiff punches, this girl threw 30 techniques that he avoided or checked. He is the aggressor because he changed the level of contact. I didn't, though. It was just a stiff punch--a good punch that hit its target.

I recently learned some silat techniques to the forehead that might have worked better, but I didn't know them then---something more along the line of mantis's capping palm---something to turn the head up and offset the opponent's balance. With fluffly gloves you can hit anything.

[sean_stonehart]

Eh it was probably more you hit a girl period.

I don't remember a big dust off when Aaron knocked Omar out... or was it Omar knocking Aaron out? Either way... two guys, roughly the same size & skill levels with a little beef in there for measure when they put the gloves on at test time.

Next time just don't hit her so obviously... carry on.

[Judge Pen]

Here's what I suspect. Everyone is always on adrenaline by the end of an SD test (which is why I generally abhor test "sparring"). You've just done 14 forms, weapons included, and then you spar. Most people get hyped up. I remained pretty calm and exploited a weakness. Is there a better place to hit a chick who you outweigh by 65 pounds when you don't wish to leave a mark---or hurt badly? I couldn't find one in those 10-20 seconds.;) Now, I'm not saying GM The' was wrong for breaking it up. I was myself surprised at the whiplash effect of a punch to the forehead (since nobody with any sense "punches" a forehead intentionally in a realitime scenario). BUt I did have fluffly gloves and I knew that it was a neutral target. What I am saying is that he assessed the problem incorrectly. He probably figured--this guy threw two stiff punches, this girl threw 30 techniques that he avoided or checked. He is the aggressor because he changed the level of contact. I didn't, though. It was just a stiff punch--a good punch that hit its target.

I recently learned some silat techniques to the forehead that might have worked better, but I didn't know them then---something more along the line of mantis's capping palm---something to turn the head up and offset the opponent's balance. With fluffly gloves you can hit anything.

Wookie, forgive me for this post. It may not be true, but I sense some Rashamon revisionism here. Do you think it may be because Sin The thought your confidence was arrogance and that your actions were just another expression of ****iness? I've been in some rough sparring in front of Sin The. I've seen people go down from shots that end the match. I've seen Sin The stop fights and tell people to keep control. I've never seen him lay hands on anyone in the process. I can only deduce that the varible here that is different is you and his attitude toward you. Just a thought, I could be completely wrong.

[Judge Pen]

Back to SD:

What other schools teach Hua Tau's 5 animal frolic as part of their curriculim? Is there a book or video explaining Hua Tau that Sin could have borrowed? Anyone know how Sin claims to have acquired this training?

[Judge Pen]

I recently learned some silat techniques to the forehead that might have worked better, but I didn't know them then---something more along the line of mantis's capping palm---something to turn the head up and offset the opponent's balance. With fluffly gloves you can hit anything.

What level were you testing for? If it were black, you should have known these techniques. Where did you learn "silat" techniques?

[Kellen Bassette]

Here's what I suspect. Everyone is always on adrenaline by the end of an SD test (which is why I generally abhor test "sparring"). You've just done 14 forms, weapons included, and then you spar. Most people get hyped up. I remained pretty calm and exploited a weakness. Is there a better place to hit a chick who you outweigh by 65 pounds when you don't wish to leave a mark---or hurt badly? I couldn't find one in those 10-20 seconds.;) Now, I'm not saying GM The' was wrong for breaking it up. I was myself surprised at the whiplash effect of a punch to the forehead (since nobody with any sense "punches" a forehead intentionally in a realitime scenario). BUt I did have fluffly gloves and I knew that it was a neutral target. What I am saying is that he assessed the problem incorrectly. He probably figured--this guy threw two stiff punches, this girl threw 30 techniques that he avoided or checked. He is the aggressor because he changed the level of contact. I didn't, though. It was just a stiff punch--a good punch that hit its target.

I recently learned some silat techniques to the forehead that might have worked better, but I didn't know them then---something more along the line of mantis's capping palm---something to turn the head up and offset the opponent's balance. With fluffly gloves you can hit anything.

Let her have it...should have swept the leg, lol...you know I always get hurt (not taking damage, just annoying bruises) play sparring with my wife or with kids, because I'm afraid to hurt them but they aren't afraid to hurt me.

It's just too difficult to spar someone when your actively trying to pull everything and they are trying to land everything, it makes all your moves awkward.

When I'm sparring the guys, we'll go as hard as we want, as long as I feel it's still sparring and there's not an intent for real injury. When I feel it's escalated and my sparring partner is gunning to hurt me for real, or knock me out, it has to move to fight mode...I immediately try to take them out to end the sparring match. It's too dangerous to spar with someone who is trying to fight you. You both got to be on the same page.

This is why a lot of instructors don't like to fight newbies. They are trying to teach and work with them, but often the new kid wants to feel like a tough guy, landing one on his teachers jaw.

You can say it's a big man and a small girl, but if she's trying to hit you for real and your pulling everything, it's going to make you look like an idiot, at your test no less...she may not have realized this, but it's disrespectful to go all out on a stronger opponent that's going easy for your benefit.

One of my biggest pet peeves, when I'm sparring someone with less experience, is when I throw a kick to their head and pull what could have easily been a knockout, only to have them grab the foot and try to sweep me.

You only get to do that once. If your too stupid to realize I could have took your head off, but didn't want to, then you take advantage of me when I half froze my leg in the air...next time it's not getting pulled. :)

I learned this the hard way at 14. I was sparring my instructor he left me an opening to see what I would do, I had my hands down, he threw a backfist and pulled it...I stepped in and punched him in the chin. We did this 3 times, each time he was trying to get me to realize I wasn't guarding my head, but I was so stoked to have a chance to punch him, I wasn't even paying attention. The third time I stepped in to take advantage he knocked me out with the backfist. One of the best lessons I ever got, I'll never forget it.

[Judge Pen]

Let her have it...should have swept the leg, lol...you know I always get hurt (not taking damage, just annoying bruises) play sparring with my wife or with kids, because I'm afraid to hurt them but they aren't afraid to hurt me.

It's just too difficult to spar someone when your actively trying to pull everything and they are trying to land everything, it makes all your moves awkward.

When I'm sparring the guys, we'll go as hard as we want, as long as I feel it's still sparring and there's not an intent for real injury. When I feel it's escalated and my sparring partner is gunning to hurt me for real, or knock me out, it has to move to fight mode...I immediately try to take them out to end the sparring match. It's too dangerous to spar with someone who is trying to fight you. You both got to be on the same page.

This is why a lot of instructors don't like to fight newbies. They are trying to teach and work with them, but often the new kid wants to feel like a tough guy, landing one on his teachers jaw.

You can say it's a big man and a small girl, but if she's trying to hit you for real and your pulling everything, it's going to make you look like an idiot, at your test no less...she may not have realized this, but it's disrespectful to go all out on a stronger opponent that's going easy for your benefit.

One of my biggest pet peeves, when I'm sparring someone with less experience, is when I throw a kick to their head and pull what could have easily been a knockout, only to have them grab the foot and try to sweep me.

You only get to do that once. If your too stupid to realize I could have took your head off, but didn't want to, then you take advantage of me when I half froze my leg in the air...next time it's not getting pulled. :)

I learned this the hard way at 14. I was sparring my instructor he left me an opening to see what I would do, I had my hands down, he threw a backfist and pulled it...I stepped in and punched him in the chin. We did this 3 times, each time he was trying to get me to realize I wasn't guarding my head, but I was so stoked to have a chance to punch him, I wasn't even paying attention. The third time I stepped in to take advantage he knocked me out with the backfist. One of the best lessons I ever got, I'll never forget it.

Very good observations. Sweeps are good for that, but if you are too effective, or they don't know how to properly fall, it can be just as bad (speaking from experience here).

I learned a lot of difficult lessons along the way sparring early in my days. I was a high school football player and thought I was pretty tough. I started training when I was 14 and most of the upper ranked students in my class were a couple of years older and non-football players. They resented me coming into their world (you know how small town high-school politics are). They relished teaching me that they were tougher than me and were very rough and aggressive even as I was learning techniques. It improved my sparring very quickly (sink or swim) and I'm amazed at how well my teacher kept control under the circumstances. I think he knew I needed humbling but never let things get dangerous or tempers get too hot.

He was a good man and became one of my best friends. He died in a helicopter accident not long after I reached black. One of the reasons I kept training in SD was to honor that relationship and attain the same rank he had when he passed.

[Shaolin Wookie]

What level were you testing for? If it were black, you should have known these techniques. Where did you learn "silat" techniques?

I suppose that needs clarification--I'm not talking SD, here. My SD teacher also runs a kuntao-silat club on a monthly basis, with periodic extra training during the month. We do a lot of bladed work. I think I saw Sean at one of the first meetings, once, where we worked on the seven seeds of Harimau. I can't recall, though. I'd prefer to keep immediate names/lineages out of it (some is Suwanda, some is De Thouars), since I don't like dropping names in this trainwreck of a thread where everything comes under attack. I'm sure Sean would agree that much of Silat and kuntao is like kung fu, and much is not.

As for "knowing" techniques. A good cap requires some dextrous skill, and there's no capping in Tang Lang Quan. I know it from WM STP and Cha Chui, but I had just learned those forms. IT was my my 1st degree black belt exam (testing with all brown belt material), I think. PRobably 5 years ago. I cap quite a bit, now. It's a nice attack/setup, although you occasionally poke someone in the eye.

[Judge Pen]

For those who want to flame or reminisce, here's a photo taken at my first teacher's funeral of the students under him at the time (with Sin The in attendance). A very motley crew for certain.

[Judge Pen]

I suppose that needs clarification--I'm not talking SD, here. My SD teacher also runs a kuntao-silat club on a monthly basis, with periodic extra training during the month. We do a lot of bladed work. I think I saw Sean at one of the first meetings, once, where we worked on the seven seeds of Harimau. I can't recall, though. I'd prefer to keep immediate names/lineages out of it (some is Suwanda, some is De Thouars), since I don't like dropping names in this trainwreck of a thread where everything comes under attack. I'm sure Sean would agree that much of Silat and kuntao is like kung fu, and much is not.

As for "knowing" techniques. A good cap requires some dextrous skill, and there's no capping in Tang Lang Quan. I know it from WM STP and Cha Chui, but I had just learned those forms. IT was my my 1st degree black belt exam (testing with all brown belt material), I think. PRobably 5 years ago. I cap quite a bit, now. It's a nice attack/setup, although you occasionally poke someone in the eye.

I saw some photos from a silat seminar; looked like a good time. Just the techniques you are describing are part of the forms I learned in SD. Even in our brown level bird forms if I recall correctly.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I was a bit hesitant on my 2nd degree test, and it was 2-on-1 sparring. Wound up getting injured. GM The' was very kind, he checked up on me, and seemed quite concerned. He's a good man in many respects. I just don't trust what he says concerning the system.

JP--as for the prideful part. I would say that I am a prideful man in the sense that I try to take pride in what I do. I am also quite humble about my skills b/c I know there is much that I do not know--but I'll call BS when I see BS, and I'll challenge what I see as questionable based on what I know is solid. You cannot learn if you do not question things ruthlessly. If you do not question things, then you have no reason to take pride in what you do. Sometimes other people see this as arrogance, especially where the "don't question the teacher" mentality of TMA prevails.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I saw some photos from a silat seminar; looked like a good time. Just the techniques you are describing are part of the forms I learned in SD. Even in our brown level bird forms if I recall correctly.

I can see what you're saying, but the timing would be off. THe elbow would folllow the cap, not vice versa. 2 different techniques---but if you reverse engineer forms, as I often do, I could see what you're saying.

[Judge Pen]

I can see what you're saying, but the timing would be off. THe elbow would folllow the cap, not vice versa. 2 different techniques---but if you reverse engineer forms, as I often do, I could see what you're saying.

Because no two opponents are the same, I see limitless variations of applicaitons depending on you, your opponent and the extraneous conditions. Master Garry broke down applicaitons for short form (as did Master Nance). I forget how many pages were just for short form #1. Did you take Master Nance's KAT seminar? Really good stuff in there.

[Shaolin Wookie]

If that was his sparring skills seminar, yes. He is very skilled with those techniques. He really taught me to consider how integrated striking and china are.

[brucereiter]

jp is talking about kata application theory. it is worth checking out.

[hskwarrior]

jp is talking about kata application theory. it is worth checking out.

PET PEEVE HERE. IF YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO CLAIM YOU ARE KUNG FU....SHAOLIN.....YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO STOP USING JAPANESE TERMS FOR CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS.

KUNG FU DOES NOT CALL OUR FORMS "kata" THEY ARE REFERRED TO AS SETS OR FORMS.

[Judge Pen]

PET PEEVE HERE. IF YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO CLAIM YOU ARE KUNG FU....SHAOLIN.....YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO STOP USING JAPANESE TERMS FOR CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS.

KUNG FU DOES NOT CALL OUR FORMS "kata" THEY ARE REFERRED TO AS SETS OR FORMS.

I share that peeve, but I'm not sure what is the proper term for forms in "kung tao." As part of my 2nd teacher's change in trappings he moved away from the gi and calling forms "katas". But that aside, the applications in Master Nance's KAT seminar are excellent (no matter what he calls them).

[Shaolin Wookie]

I don't think some of KAT is particularly useful. Master Nance's stuff was more streamlined for combat. Some of the original KAT is brilliant, however. Much is rooted in chinna/techniques. Master Nance synthesized them well.

[Judge Pen]

I don't think some of KAT is particularly useful. Master Nance's stuff was more streamlined for combat. Some of the original KAT is brilliant, however. Much is rooted in chinna/techniques. Master Nance synthesized them well.

What, specifically, did you not think was useful?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm thinking particularly of berryman's guides. Too many assumptions of "grips" involved (and an irrational commitment to holding grips while the KAT user does what he wants). I'd have to go back and reassess to get more specific

Now, if someone gives me a grip, I always hold it tight to my chest or side. But you have to act quick, and I recall that some of KAT took way too much time to be effective in live sparring

[Judge Pen]

I'm thinking particularly of berryman's guides. Too many assumptions of "grips" involved (and an irrational commitment to holding grips while the KAT user does what he wants). I'd have to go back and reassess to get more specific

Now, if someone gives me a grip, I always hold it tight to my chest or side. But you have to act quick, and I recall that some of KAT took way too much time to be effective in live sparring

I think as long as you react with a quick and distracting strike, then the applications from a grip or grab become more realistic.

And let's not kid ourselves: a self-defense scenario is always different than live sparring. Unless your this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Vy6-vvoBY

[bodhi warrior]

I share that peeve, but I'm not sure what is the proper term for forms in "kung tao." As part of my 2nd teacher's change in trappings he moved away from the gi and calling forms "katas". But that aside, the applications in Master Nance's KAT seminar are excellent (no matter what he calls them).

Are the DVDs worth the purchase?

[Judge Pen]

Are the DVDs worth the purchase?

I couldn't tell you that; I don't own them. I took the seminar live in 2004 and was very impressed with the concepts. I thought about purchasing the materials but never got around to doing it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Are the DVDs worth the purchase?

No. I'd sell u mine for cost of shipping.

[bodhi warrior]

No. I'd sell u mine for cost of shipping.

Pm me so we can exchange info.

[tattooedmonk]

is a Japanese word, Tao Lu or Kuen is Chinese , set ,form etc. is English, so it must nt be Kung Fu terminology either.:rolleyes: get a clue douche bag. do you have to capitalize everything? we can hear your fat @$$ talking sh!t even when you whisper.:D

[hskwarrior]

is a Japanese word, Tao Lu or Kuen is Chinese , set ,form etc. is English, so it must nt be Kung Fu terminology either. get a clue douche bag. do you have to capitalize everything? we can hear your fat @$$ talking sh!t even when you whisper.

TATTOOED VAGINA aka TATTOOED JIM JONES AKA TATTOOED MONK.

P-U-S-S-Y! PUNK ASS BIATCH. YOU NEED TO GO BACK TO BROKE BACK MOUNTAIN WOOKIE WORSHIPER. I BET YOUR SIGUNG IS HAN SOLO.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24262482.jpg

[Syn7]

Wookie, forgive me for this post. It may not be true, but I sense some Rashamon revisionism here. Do you think it may be because Sin The thought your confidence was arrogance and that your actions were just another expression of ****iness? I've been in some rough sparring in front of Sin The. I've seen people go down from shots that end the match. I've seen Sin The stop fights and tell people to keep control. I've never seen him lay hands on anyone in the process. I can only deduce that the varible here that is different is you and his attitude toward you. Just a thought, I could be completely wrong.

Maybe it was about that specific girl. Maybe he felt overprotective of her for some reason.

I don't think wook did anything wrong. In fact, from what I have read, I don't think she should have been there at all. Let alone paired up with somebody who is bigger better and faster. If it was me I would have just tossed her around the room till she gave up. I mean, she came to bang right? If it was a lower level test maybe that would be too much, but it was a BB test right?

[brucereiter]

PET PEEVE HERE. IF YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO CLAIM YOU ARE KUNG FU....SHAOLIN.....YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO STOP USING JAPANESE TERMS FOR CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS.

KUNG FU DOES NOT CALL OUR FORMS "kata" THEY ARE REFERRED TO AS SETS OR FORMS.

in my opinion tim nance is a amazing fighter/martial artist/teacher regardless of the history of his teacher and the origin of the arts they claim to do/teach and regardless of the words he chose to describe his methods..

i have not learned the forms that "kata" application theory are about but the general concept is pretty good.

what i got out of tim nances "kat" class was that it is important to find several usage options for each movement in your forms. practice them against what you think are the most common and likely attacks.

i have met tim nance on a couple of occasions and have had one 2 hour class with him several years ago.

i prefer to use as much english terminology as i can when talking about any style of martial arts since this is the only language i speak:-)


for anyone who is interested
below is copied from http://www.shaolinlegends.com/v_secrets_v4.html
>>>>
For nearly 4 decades, Senior Master Tim Nance has trained in the art of Shaolin. He is highly skilled and understands the nuances of empty hand combat. In Shaolin Secrets to Success IV, he shares with you his perspective on how you can become a better sparrer. Learn how to take your sparring to the next level by applying his wisdom and knowledge to your foundational punches, stances, kicks and stepping techniques. In addition, he teaches training drills and shares with you the important details he sees as he engages an opponent.


Join Senior Master Nance as he discusses:

The Center Punch
Using Multiple Strikes
Vision and Touch
Forcing Reactions
Avoiding Wrist Locks
Subtle Punching
Shadow Boxing
Sweeping
Internal Arts Applications
And much more!
As an added bonus, Senior Master Nance shares his personal experiences and thoughts on street fighting versus sparring, the relationship between the Internal and External Arts, and more!
Video Details
Edition: DVD
Encoding: Region 1 (U.S. and Canada only. This DVD will probably NOT be viewable in other countries.)
Format: Color
DVD Release Date: July, 2008
Running Time: Approx. 1 hr 26 min<<<<

[Syn7]

No. I'd sell u mine for cost of shipping.

How bout you just upload em so we can all see? It's not like SD has observed the rights of other styles they took from. They should be treated accordingly. Open source that mother****er!




This is Chow Fook. My Sifu had three teachers and this is one of them. It's not a very good recording but you can see the power. As far as hand sets go, this is very strong. I wish I could have seen him in his prime. As an old man he is still VERY "solid".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPriM8V0tNY

There are some vids of the kids, I can't find it but I will look harder and post it so you can see the standards of our school.

Not everyone at the school is good. Some are really bad, actually. But out of the ones who put in the work, they are ALL good for the amount of time they have put in.


So... I don't wanna see a fancy SD wushu set. I wanna see Ging. I would love to see a vid of a POWERFUL sd performance. No flower dances, just POWER. Lay it on me and let me bask in the strength of SD.

[Kellen Bassette]

This is Chow Fook. My Sifu had three teachers and this is one of them. It's not a very good recording but you can see the power. As far as hand sets go, this is very strong. I wish I could have seen him in his prime. As an old man he is still VERY "solid".


Lot of energy for an older guy...nice form...

[shen ku]

I took the "kat" at Master Nances home school in Winchester. I loved it. Not all of it works "perfect" for me but it did give me a new way of looking at things and a lot to work from. Oh and he took me one on one and hurt me bad, but it was all in fun. Me and Master Nance get along well, he kind of saved me once in a little deal on a mountain bus ride.

[Judge Pen]

I took the "kat" at Master Nances home school in Winchester. I loved it. Not all of it works "perfect" for me but it did give me a new way of looking at things and a lot to work from. Oh and he took me one on one and hurt me bad, but it was all in fun. Me and Master Nance get along well, he kind of saved me once in a little deal on a mountain bus ride.

That's the thing with any application; not all applications work for you and not all applications may work on a resisting opponent. Everyone is different. You need an understanding of all the variations on a technique and the comfort level to flow and adapt under pressure. The question isn't "what's the application for this technique?" Rather "What's your application on someone like me for that technique?"

[Judge Pen]

I took the "kat" at Master Nances home school in Winchester. I loved it. Not all of it works "perfect" for me but it did give me a new way of looking at things and a lot to work from. Oh and he took me one on one and hurt me bad, but it was all in fun. Me and Master Nance get along well, he kind of saved me once in a little deal on a mountain bus ride.

Must have been a hell of a ride. What was the name of the mountain? Egoshan?:D

[sean_stonehart]

Must have been a hell of a ride. What was the name of the mountain? Egoshan?:D

If I remember correctly, it was in Tibet. He'll need to supply details, but I think that's what he's talking about.

[Judge Pen]

Not everyone at the school is good. Some are really bad, actually. But out of the ones who put in the work, they are ALL good for the amount of time they have put in.



I think that's pretty common in a lot of schools. The teacher is there to teach, but you get out of it what you are willing to invest.

[-N-]

This is Chow Fook. My Sifu had three teachers and this is one of them. It's not a very good recording but you can see the power. As far as hand sets go, this is very strong. I wish I could have seen him in his prime. As an old man he is still VERY "solid".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPriM8V0tNY



That's some real deal stuff there. All the body connections are in place.

[Empty_Cup]

This is Chow Fook. My Sifu had three teachers and this is one of them. It's not a very good recording but you can see the power. As far as hand sets go, this is very strong. I wish I could have seen him in his prime. As an old man he is still VERY "solid".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPriM8V0tNY



Is this video choppy for anybody else? No pun intended :D

[hskwarrior]

Is this video choppy for anybody else? No pun intended

yeah it does look choppy. but thats ok, cause you still get an decent idea of the mans skills. maybe it was choppy cause the poster didn't want people to copy it then try to tteach it like whats found in Shaolin do.

ps.....its a GREAT idea to chop up traditional forms when posting them to the internet. this way low life wannabe martial artists can't steal it, throw in a few extra moves then give it an alternative history. I LOVE CHOPPING UP FORMS because of this very reason

[hskwarrior]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7219&stc=1&d=1353337390

How many people on here would be afraid of any of these guys? :confused:

[themeecer]

To flame people attending a funeral is a low blow even for some of you all. Very classy.

[themeecer]

They wore their Gis to the funeral? WTF.
When my teacher's dad passed away we didn't wear our gis. However, we did bow to his casket as we passed by. I found it very touching. His dad was buried with his blackbelt in the casket.