Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Golden Tiger]

Hey Meece,

I was going thru my old tapes and had a set of you and Master Green doing the monkey stuff. You were just a wee lad back then....

[themeecer]

Yes he beat the snot out of me then. Wee lad? I was 21 then. He was going to do that demo at the last tournament but decided against it. It is quite a site to be on the recieving end of that .. especially to see him jumping through the air looking like he is going to land on you. This past time he was trying to figure out a way to land on my chest with both feet ... but there was no way to safely do it.

[The Willow Sword]

Well guys i have no idea who kwaichang is. he says he knows me personally. i Pm'ed him with the big question i guess as to WHo he actually is or she.

i guess the only thing that can be debated about statements that i have made that are allegedly "false" is what i have been able to discover about the lineage and history of SD(which everyone in here knows where i stand on it.)

As to any other statements i have made they have been either my "experiences at SD and my personal intepretations of things" "opinions that i have" and recounting the experiences as I experienced them and have lead me to this point.

of Course Kwaichang is more than welcome to list my "False statements" if he/she wishes for debate.


PEACE,,TWS

[kwaichang]

I knew you when. To say the lineage is false then post your sources let us all see what you found other wise you are making only opinions that cannot be proven a quitter is what you are looking for the easy path to enlightenment only hard work will find it kc

[The Willow Sword]

SO you knew me when?

answer my Pm and let me know who you are? Im not going to reveal your precious identity here. (you know how many Pm's i get from individuals that i keep under my hat?) You would be suprised.

Because if you do not revel to me who you are then i am just going to assume that you are some troll who may have been around me in the SD days when i was there and you really dont know me personally. because right now with your entrance in to the forums that is what you are being perceived as here(a troll).


PEACE,,TWS

[kwaichang]

WS So I take it you will not reveal your sources I can only assume you have no proof of your statements. Who I am is not important, the lies you spout about SD are. You degrade an art you trained in for 9 years. If you do not want to post it here send it to my e-mail and i will look at it. As far as your opinion is concerned you are welcome to have it but back up what you write. show us all i have explored your posts and didnt find any thing. think hard into your past and you will know me
kc :D

[The Willow Sword]

If i am right then yes KC does know me personally a little bit. Only because(if i am right) he and my mother went to the same COTA courses and we found out that we trained at the same school.

I will reply only to the "deflated ego" statement you made to me and say "look in the mirror at yourself long and hard KC. I respected you well inside and outside of SD. But let us BOTH not forget our personal lessons in life inside and OUTside of the school. DO not cast your stones unless you have real due cause,,and last i expereinced the cause of defending the school from "false statements" has always been met with silence and in my opinion a snobbish and elitist attitude (which i never had at the school)

it is only here where our annonymity has allowed the SD people to stand up for what they believe in and Others to counter it and Stand up for what THEY in turn Believe in.

If you posed these questions to your senior masters KC what would they say to you?(oh and congrats on your 4th ;) ) ill bet i know the answer..its the same answer i have gotten all these years."why do you waste time with it,,or Dont buy in to their BS,,or they are just jealous because(insert reason here). Always diverting away from the central issue that is posed so many times here on this forum.

You once asked me(if in fact you are who i think you are) if i thought that what we did was authentic shaolin(or some wording to that effect) at the time my answer was " i really dont know,,seems solid to me(or some wording to that effect)" that was the naive answer and at the time i really did not care(you know what my dedication level was at the school)

now if you were to ask me the same question? you get a not so naive answer and YES there will be some bitterness in the answer due to personal conflicts with you know who,,some may use this to delfate the other things that i say with regards to history and lineage,,but if you know the reasons why(my reasons and not what you think may be the whole story) then maybe your attitude would change a bit KC.

oh and i never said that i had a firm grasp of the tao,,i relate to what some of the tao says,,,take this excerpt for instance
" IF i even have just a little sense, i will walk on the main road and my only fear will be of straying from it. Keeping to the main road is easy,,but people Love to be sidetracked. When the court is arrayed in splendor, the fields are full of weeds and the graineries are bare. Some wear gorgeous clothes, carry sharp swords, and indulge themselves with excess,,they have more possesions than they can use. they are robber barons. This is certainly not the way of the tao".
lao tsu.

Peace to you KC,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jason

[kwaichang]

You say it is solid but now u dont why the change? you have a reason ? show it state it Shaolin do is "real" Shaolin training you know in your heart it is why you say other wise can only be personal. I felt at one time you could have been an awsome martial artist and Shaolin practitioner why has this changed

"Each morning when I awake like a scholar before a black board i prepare a blank mind for the day to write upon" Write upon my board jason show me enlighten me not with "belief" but fact. When people are let down they often turn against those closest kc :confused:

[The Willow Sword]

check your private messages KC. i would prefer to take this dialogue off the boards.

Peace,,TWS

[Royal Dragon]

Just for giggles, what does Shaolin Do have in COMMON with Shaolin Temple Kung Fu?

I have looked at video of Shaolin Do on the web before, and everytime I do, see Karate, with added hand techniques. I don't see the smooth flowing percision of actual Shaolin Kung Fu. I DO NOT see Shaolin Kung Fu in anything other than a theatrical aproximation like might be seen in a theater presentation coreagraphed by someone who has never actually seen what they are trying to convey.

So, that being said, what is there that can show a technical, theoretical, strategical, or principal based tie to real, Authentic Shaolin?

[kwaichang]

so what style of karate do you compare SD to kc

[Royal Dragon]

My Brother was in Goju Ryu, I have some Kong Su Do, and freinds I had in my youth were into Shoto Kan. It's all choppy, liniear, and very regimented in the flow.

Also, I have been to enough Karate tournaments in my time to easily distinguish arts of Japanese descent from those of Chinese, especially Shaolin.

[kwaichang]

Go JU Shoto kan Wado ****o Ryu are all japanese arts not to be confused with the more traditional Okinawan arts such as shuri te naha te etc the Japanese arts are somewhat linear I must admit but having trained in Japanese Okinawan KARATE for quite a long time I can assure you that SD does not resemble it, however Karate may resemble Shaolin Esp the LOhan system or Hsing Ie likewise Aikido resembles Pakua in principle kc

[kwaichang]

Here is an interesting quote !!!!
The Willow Sword06-10-2001, 03:09 PM
I must reply to this phrase that you keep using.
(Legitimate CMA teachers)
i have ,,IN FACT,,studied with a LEGITAMATE CMA teacher before i joined the SD school. his name is Eric nessen and was a student of Master JOHN ENG, who taught praying mantis and pakua and hsing-i. i was a private student of his for several years before having to move back to texas to pursue at the time a career in physical therapy. i was in louisville KY (where i am from originally) and where i trained with master Nessen. before that i was a student of CHA YON RYU which is a branch of kim soo karate under the direction of john blankenship,,before that i was studying KI-AIKIDO(seminars and clinics under teachers such as joeseph birdsong ,mark cartwright and others) this is going way back to when i was a teeneager. SO Monkey slap i have a broad experience in japanese and chinese styles.
the fact that i am in a school that blends the two and focuses more on the chinese aspect and lineage fits with what i have been doing....in any regard i know the "LEGITAMATE CMA" world you describe. i truly apologize to you and others who feel so inclined to put SD down and assume that lies are being told to you. If you KNOW these claims to be lies then you must have DOCUMENTED PROOF to put forth to substantiate YOUR CLAIMS.
WHERE IS IT? SHOW IT TO ME. OPEN MY EYES.
i want footage of how these lies you say are proved,,, you continue to tell me to go to wushu tournaments or to compete and to open my eyes. WELL MY EYES ARE OPEN MONKEY SLAP ,,SHOW IT TO ME. since you care so much about telling me and others as well SHOW ME THE PROOF. i dont want to hear that the proof is in what he says becuse it is impossible what he claims and all that BS. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A SCHOOL SUCH AS OURS TO HAVE LINEAGE AT THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE.. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE LEARNED 900 FORMS/TECHNIQUES IN 30 YRS+ WHEN WE AS HUMANS CAN LEARN AND REMEMBER WORDS AND PHRASES THAT ECLIPSE THAT NUMBER. THEY ARE SEQUENCES JUST LIKE FORMS ARE ,,JUST PHYSICAL, COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS HAVE TO LEARN 10 TIMES THAT MUCH INFO WHEN WORKING WITH CODE AND THEY HAVE REFERENCES TO DO SO,,,,SO TO DO MA MASTERS,,THEY HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN OR ON VIDEO TAPE. re-read my above first post. we will have to agree to disagree on the subject,,but what gets me is that you continue to throw mud in my direction when i dont even judge your styles legitamacy or lineage. it makes you look like another a$$ hole with an ego agenda standing on high with your hard on and your "legitimate cma teacher certification". OPEN YOUR EYES. you are not the only one who teaches kung-fu and ill bet that there are some holes in your lineage as well and some things worth questioning. how do you know that what you have been taught is the "truth or legitimate" ?cause your teacher told you it was so,,cause you read it in a book years ago,,cause you have a document to prove it? cause some little old man in china told you when you went to visit? well monkey we all have documents to prove or disprove it all dont we? lets look into your back ground and scrutinize it, shall we? and we unenlightened souls at SD will bend over for you to follow you in the ultimate grand school that is the TRUE WAY. YES ITS MONKEYSLAPS SCHOOL OF (what was it that you claim to be a teacher of?) help me out here guys,,lets here this guys credentials,,,,,ill bet they are SOLID AS a c/rock arent they? enlighten me to the true way monkey slap.
Many respects,,willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

This was written by Willow sounds like he was defending SD to me kc

[Fred Sanford]

This was written by Willow sounds like he was defending SD to me kc

I think the key word is WAS

[spiraler]

Here is an interesting quote !!!!
The Willow Sword06-10-2001, 03:09 PM
I must reply to this phrase that you keep using.
(Legitimate CMA teachers)
i have ,,IN FACT,,studied with a LEGITAMATE CMA teacher before i joined the SD school. his name is Eric nessen and was a student of Master JOHN ENG, who taught praying mantis and pakua and hsing-i. i was a private student of his for several years before having to move back to texas to pursue at the time a career in physical therapy. i was in louisville KY (where i am from originally) and where i trained with master Nessen. before that i was a student of CHA YON RYU which is a branch of kim soo karate under the direction of john blankenship,,before that i was studying KI-AIKIDO(seminars and clinics under teachers such as joeseph birdsong ,mark cartwright and others) this is going way back to when i was a teeneager. SO Monkey slap i have a broad experience in japanese and chinese styles.
the fact that i am in a school that blends the two and focuses more on the chinese aspect and lineage fits with what i have been doing....in any regard i know the "LEGITAMATE CMA" world you describe. i truly apologize to you and others who feel so inclined to put SD down and assume that lies are being told to you. If you KNOW these claims to be lies then you must have DOCUMENTED PROOF to put forth to substantiate YOUR CLAIMS.
WHERE IS IT? SHOW IT TO ME. OPEN MY EYES.
i want footage of how these lies you say are proved,,, you continue to tell me to go to wushu tournaments or to compete and to open my eyes. WELL MY EYES ARE OPEN MONKEY SLAP ,,SHOW IT TO ME. since you care so much about telling me and others as well SHOW ME THE PROOF. i dont want to hear that the proof is in what he says becuse it is impossible what he claims and all that BS. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A SCHOOL SUCH AS OURS TO HAVE LINEAGE AT THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE.. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE LEARNED 900 FORMS/TECHNIQUES IN 30 YRS+ WHEN WE AS HUMANS CAN LEARN AND REMEMBER WORDS AND PHRASES THAT ECLIPSE THAT NUMBER. THEY ARE SEQUENCES JUST LIKE FORMS ARE ,,JUST PHYSICAL, COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS HAVE TO LEARN 10 TIMES THAT MUCH INFO WHEN WORKING WITH CODE AND THEY HAVE REFERENCES TO DO SO,,,,SO TO DO MA MASTERS,,THEY HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN OR ON VIDEO TAPE. re-read my above first post. we will have to agree to disagree on the subject,,but what gets me is that you continue to throw mud in my direction when i dont even judge your styles legitamacy or lineage. it makes you look like another a$$ hole with an ego agenda standing on high with your hard on and your "legitimate cma teacher certification". OPEN YOUR EYES. you are not the only one who teaches kung-fu and ill bet that there are some holes in your lineage as well and some things worth questioning. how do you know that what you have been taught is the "truth or legitimate" ?cause your teacher told you it was so,,cause you read it in a book years ago,,cause you have a document to prove it? cause some little old man in china told you when you went to visit? well monkey we all have documents to prove or disprove it all dont we? lets look into your back ground and scrutinize it, shall we? and we unenlightened souls at SD will bend over for you to follow you in the ultimate grand school that is the TRUE WAY. YES ITS MONKEYSLAPS SCHOOL OF (what was it that you claim to be a teacher of?) help me out here guys,,lets here this guys credentials,,,,,ill bet they are SOLID AS a c/rock arent they? enlighten me to the true way monkey slap.
Many respects,,willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

This was written by Willow sounds like he was defending SD to me kc


dude.... SHUT UP! heheheh im eeeeeevil.

[sean_stonehart]

Go JU Shoto kan Wado ****o Ryu are all japanese arts not to be confused with the more traditional Okinawan arts such as shuri te naha te etc the Japanese arts are somewhat linear I must admit but having trained in Japanese Okinawan KARATE for quite a long time I can assure you that SD does not resemble it, however Karate may resemble Shaolin Esp the LOhan system or Hsing Ie likewise Aikido resembles Pakua in principle kc


Goju ryu == Okinawan (Naha te)
****o ryu == Okinawan (Naha te & Shuri te)

Shotokan == Japanese via Okinawa
Wado ryu == Japanese via Shotokan
Goju Kai == Japanese via Goju ryu

;)

[Golden Tiger]

I think the key word is WAS

Excellent observation Fred. But that begs the question of why WAS he and isn't now? Did his change of heart come from some enlightenment or from a personal issue he had with his teacher?

If it was from the first, then I would have tons of respect for him. People wake up every day and decide that their current course is not the road that they really want or need to follow. I started in a class of about 40 new students and I am the only one left. I imagine that the others decided that SD was not right for them for what ever reason. Some changed to other styles of MA and we still workout together. Instead of wasting time slamming each others preferences of style, we pull from both sources and gain in experience and ability. That is how you mature as a person and a MAist.

On the other hand, as TWS's case seems, he had a personal issue with his teacher/school. I don't know the whole story nor do I wish to but by reading his posts and the emotions involved, we (the SDers and I am sure most others) take what he posts with a grain of salt. Perhaps his critisms are sincere but with this underlying anger, its hard to sort out what is real and what is a personal vindetta. Unfortunately, untill he can just let it go, his post do little other than provide us with a source of entertainment.

[kwaichang]

Excellent observation GT kc :)

[lxtruong]

I started in a class of about 40 new students and I am the only one left.

That's hardly surprising over the course of 20+ years worth of training. :)

[Judge Pen]

I'm betting most of the other 40 students dropped out within 2 years. I started with a class of 30 and 2 of us made it to 1st black. The other guy was 12 when he started and almost 16 when we tested for black.

[wdl]

When I first started back in 2k briefly, I'm the only one still around. There was a class of about 15-20 of us at the Rose Center. I took a two year work break in there too.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

Excellent observation GT kc :)

Everyone has moments of greatness, mine just happened to have lasted for about 30 years........ :cool:

[wdl]

lol, GT's on a role today. I'm will to bet because of Louisvile and KY both winning. :P

-Will

[BM2]

btw who died and made you the king , kc


Well he does live in TN, Elvis lived there :cool:
I just want to know who made him Judge! j\k ;)
Yeah its ok to challenge somone's opinion, attacking with insults makes you a troll. Of course there are exceptions...Fred Sanford is fair game :eek:

And for what it's worth, nobody is going to change anyone's mind, really. :p Just look for the constructive critism and ignore the rest.
I suspect most are in SD are in it for personal reasons, not for competion. In any style there are some who excell and others that do not. As someone stated, if there were SDers that went to some of the CMA tournements and performed well, there would be something to base it on other than playing tag on a forum.

[Judge Pen]

Will, I thought KY lost to Michigan State.....

[BM2]

JP's posts are among the best from any in SD . I think we should make JP the SD spokesmodel :p

[Royal Dragon]

So, what does SD actually have in common with authentic Shaolin Kung Fu?

[wdl]

Will, I thought KY lost to Michigan State.....

I'll be, they did get beat.

To everyone from Kentucky: well cry me a river. :D

BM2: JP's a lawyer not a PR rep. LOL

-Will

[wdl]

So, what does SD actually have in common with authentic Shaolin Kung Fu?

RD, old question. same answers, so I'll keep it brief:

Stance Training(not everyone in SD has the crappy stances you see online)
Chin Na technique
Iron Body (Shin/Forearm/Shirt/etc)
Physical Conditioning
etc


-Will

[BM2]

Hey UofL is in the final four. ..............L'Yeah !

[Radhnoti]

I don't think SD claims to be like "those current inhabitants of the temple who were installed by the communist Chinese government after most of the REAL kung-fu left". :)

I never heard a comparison to current Shaolin, it was always a historic link that was mentioned.

[Royal Dragon]

Stance Training(not everyone in SD has the crappy stances you see online)

Reply]
This is common to all Chinese arts, not just Shaolin

>>Chin Na technique

Reply]
Everyone does this, even NON CMA's

>>Iron Body (Shin/Forearm/Shirt/etc)

Reply]
Again, this is common to most Asian arts...even OYD has thier method.

>Physical Conditioning

Reply]
Again, common to ALL martial arts of every geographic location.

From what I see, SD's claim is that they ARE Shaolin Temple kung Fu, and the only source for the entire thing. Yet, from what I have seen of thier online forms in the past, they bear VERY little resembance to authentic Shaolin Kung Fu at all. I kept an open mind untill I saw thier Mantis set.

It beared no resemblance to ANY mantis I have see. Manits is heavily influanced by Tai Tzu, the art I research and play with. So when I look at Mantis, I am looking at my Tai Tzu + some. When I look at SD's Mantis, I saw Karate with nothing more than a "Mantis hand" added on the end of the arm instead of punches.

There was no body structure, mechanics, or even the flavor of real Mantis. The techniques are were all "Disconnected", and didn't make any sense. One thing about Chinese forms, the techniques will work as seen in the form, usually against alot of diferent situations. The SD stuff I have seen looked like it was just basic moves stuck together, like punces, kicks and whatever. They did not seem to be a chain of various "Solutions" like CMA forms useually are, let alone ANYTHING of a real Shaolin flavor.

[The Willow Sword]

Well KC has so eloquently brought up a post from the past when i "WAS" a good and dedicated soldier at SD. im sure you could find lots of posts here when i was known as "Drunken ostrich" and was defending SD and such.

but as i stated before KC,,if you would like to talk with me i would be more than happy to explain to you my perspective of things now. Or you could go back in this thread and find where i began posting here(around page 40 something).

or you could give me a ring KC. you know how to get in touch with me.


PEACE,,TWS

[lxtruong]

Hey UofL is in the final four. ..............L'Yeah !

Too bad they're going to get pounded by my alma mater, Illinois. :)

[wdl]

One thing about Chinese forms, the techniques will work as seen in the form, usually against alot of diferent situations. The SD stuff I have seen looked like it was just basic moves stuck together, like punces, kicks and whatever. They did not seem to be a chain of various "Solutions" like CMA forms useually are, let alone ANYTHING of a real Shaolin flavor.

You speak of the dirty flow word, most of the SD stuff you see on the internet doesn't. Forms here are taught to flow together, things that are supposed to have angular and circular movement do. Do I flow? Nope, my forms suck.

I wouldn't consider myself remotely knowledgable on mantis. I have one mantis form, as mention earlier the one we usually refer to as "thrust". Thrust uses it's entire body to perform technique, particularly using the torso and lower back to strike with the mantis claw. The form also never retreats, it's always moving towards the opponent. I'm assuming you've seen the clip mantis clip on the Colorado site. The way I was taught thrust it has very little in common with that clip.


-Will

[Judge Pen]

JP's posts are among the best from any in SD . I think we should make JP the SD spokesmodel :p

Aw Shucks. *blushes*

[lxtruong]

Aw Shucks. *blushes*

Sorry, JP is insufficiently hot to be SD spokemodel. We'll have to look to some of the west coast schools for people who are suitable.

[Judge Pen]

To be fair, "thrust" contains little mantis footwork. There are mantis forms in sd that do have more traditional footwork, but not thrust. The mantis claw in SD is used for both striking and "listening" which is a basic mantis fundamental principle. "Thrust" also relies heavily on what we call the invert kick which is a princple technique to the other mantis I've been exposed to. I know more mantis outside of SD than I know from SD. (2 to 1). One of the mantis forms I've been exposed to has an SD counterpart that is more similar to whqat you would expect to see (including footwork) than the SD mantis that has been displayed on the internet. I believe the mantis clip of GM Sin everyone mentions is from "thrust" as well.

Gotta leave this debate until tomorrow. Running late. . . .

[Judge Pen]

Sorry, JP is insufficiently hot to be SD spokemodel. We'll have to look to some of the west coast schools for people who are suitable.

Hey, I've got that Richad Gear grey going on. That's hot! Although I've seen some SD ladies that I'd rather talk to then my mug.

Really, must. . . . . . stop. . . . . . . typing. . . . . .

[wdl]

Sorry, JP is insufficiently hot to be SD spokemodel. We'll have to look to some of the west coast schools for people who are suitable.

Why can't we hire that Asian modeling chick JP was talking about yesterday?

-Will

[kwaichang]

WS i read your posts I do not find any viable info to prove your point no one will find any the history is lost and or passed down by word of mouth etc. as we al l know stories change over time. Also I trained in Tang Lang sytems as well as Hung Gar years before kung fu even became as popular as it is now and the Mantis taught at shaolin does have progressive flowing techniques but to teach something it has to be broken down timing and rythm changes the application of any technique even mantis kc

[kwaichang]

OOPs i ment at shaolin do kc

[Radhnoti]

RD - "From what I see, SD's claim is that they ARE Shaolin Temple kung Fu, and the only source for the entire thing. Yet, from what I have seen of thier online forms in the past, they bear VERY little resembance to authentic Shaolin Kung Fu at all."

You are basing your opinion of "authentic" on something that SD DENIES to be authentic, I think.
The link to shaolin is historic, as I understand it. SD is not the only style I've seen refer to the contemporary Shaolin monks as "very pretty wushu and not traditional kungfu". SDer's are taught to believe that when the Southern Shaolin temple was destroyed all the "real" martial monks left. One monk, the highest ranking (so goes the story) martial monk is considered the founder of SD. The SD reasoning is ...from my observations...that since he was the temple "leader" and had the "full" shaolin system, SD is the direct and true lineage of the HISTORIC shaolin temple.
That's the argument, and there's plenty to attack but very little "fact" to settle the whole thing.

[Jhapa]

that since he was the temple "leader" and had the "full" shaolin system, SD is the direct and true lineage of the HISTORIC shaolin temple.
That's the argument, and there's plenty to attack but very little "fact" to settle the whole thing.

they don't provide an ounce of proof, that he even existed. if he was really a master of shaolin's fighter monks, than wouldn't they have included into their history. they have lineage going back hundreds years, some 30+ generations. you would think one of those generations history might slipped it in there.

[kwaichang]

There are alot of things that happen that are not in historic books or records not a valid point and most of shaolin had to do with the abbots more than the fighting monks as far as succession and history remember TaMO

[cho]

and the hairy guy that happend to master the "full" Shaolin system just slipped out of the history books???
The last surviving master of all the Shaolin arts, who managed to have his photo taken, just wasn't worth bothering to be written about?

Radhnoti: I think what Royal Dragon is saying is that SD doesn't look like any kung fu based from Shaolin he's seen. Not the styles that are there now or any other that has evolved outside the temple.

[Radhnoti]

Cho,
I'm just saying that no one is going to get far comparing SD to other styles as a critique. Lots of possible answers to that particular "attack".
1. "Well, this person or that said ours is good/old/traditional kungfu."
2. "Ours is the REAL stuff...before shaolin was turned into a performance art."
3. "Theirs has been altered, since they didn't get the full system."
4. "GM Sin has been teaching our material since the late '60s...stuff that they now teach as shaolin as "traditional". Where'd he get it all before the days of video and books with the forms step by step?"

It's just an avenue that's been followed up and down a million times...


Cho - "and the hairy guy that happend to master the "full" Shaolin system just slipped out of the history books???
The last surviving master of all the Shaolin arts, who managed to have his photo taken, just wasn't worth bothering to be written about?"

True. Not to mention that no other style seems to have mentioned him in their oral traditions either. Again, it's not like there are no other styles claiming to descend from the Southern Shaolin temple...if such a GM existed it's almost certain that some other style would have (at the minimum) one story of the "hairy monk".

Without GM Su you possibly have GM Ie travelling around the orient collecting martial information, some of which probably would/could/might have originated at Shaolin.
Which brings you back to a historic connection to shaolin, even if you assume the "transmission" was incomplete. Lots of styles of kuntao/silat claim a connection to Shaolin from what I've been able to dig up...

[cerebus]

Oh, and by the way, what's with SDers always claiming that Sin couldn't have learned from books 'cause there weren't any such books around when he was young? Hong Kong has been mass producing such instruction manuals since the '50s. Cheap, paperbacks that have sold all over SE Asia.

And since Sin The's forms look like they're being done by a Karate guy who learned them from books, I'm guessing that this is exactly the case.

[Ground Dragon]

Sure, I think a connection to shaolin could be argued, in fact I think there is a connection on some level. But what ticks folks off is when the argument is made that shaolin-do is the true transmission of the shaolin arts and what other people practice is the flowery wu shu crap.
Shaolin-do has propped up Su Kong as some end all, be all grandmaster who was able to gather all of the arts of shaolin and master them and pass them on. The truth is probably something closer to him being one of several teachers for Ie Chang Ming as Ie's own letters acknowledge his travels through different parts of Asia. And on another note, it cannot be denied that Ie was not the only teacher in Indonesia.

[wdl]

The truth is probably something closer to him being one of several teachers for Ie Chang Ming as Ie's own letters acknowledge his travels through different parts of Asia. And on another note, it cannot be denied that Ie was not the only teacher in Indonesia.

Yes, that has been a contention of mine for a long time, and I think a reasonable train of thought. It is not unusual either for a Chinese MA that came out of Indonesia to be a hodgepodge of styles. The question is whether or not "Kun Dao" as a term applies. But what is "Kun Dao" can it as a term be used interchanibly with Kung Fu? Especially if a Kun Dao style traces lineage back to Shaolin. I think a symentic discussion of whether or not Kun Dao and Kung Fu are synonyms is in order.

-Will

[cerebus]

So many poor, ignorant individuals with their heads stuck deep in the sand (by their own choice, no less). This is sad. :(

[Fred Sanford]

Yes kuntao is chinese kung fu. kuntao is a hokkien word.

speaking in generalities Shaolin-do may meet the definition of kuntao as any chinese martial art in indonesia would be called kuntao.

The big question really is this.......Is shaolin-do actually chinese kung fu? Seems doubtful at best.

[wdl]

So where does this disconnect between "Chinese Kung Fu" and "Chinese Martial Art" lie?

-Will

[Fred Sanford]

So where does this disconnect between "Chinese Kung Fu" and "Chinese Martial Art" lie?

as far as I've always known the two terms are interchangable and that's how I use them. they mean the same thing.

[kwaichang]

Cerebus tread your profile only 11 years not much time there so you know all about Shaolin and CMA OOOOOH I dont think so , sorry

[cerebus]

LOL!! 11 years? 11 years what? Where on my profile do you come up with 11 years for anything?? Have you even started learning math yet junior? Yeah, that's what I thought. Have a nice day... :p

[cerebus]

And coming from someone who's too afraid to even post anything on their profile, it's even more amusing. Bow down before your SD idols and accept everything they say at face value because they ARE your sole source of info on the martial arts so they MUST be right. What a classic loser... :p

[Brad]

kwaichang... this is 2005 ;) 2 more years and he'll be qualified to be Shaolin grandmaster :D

[cerebus]

LOL! Geez, I hope not! :D :D

[Brad]

Wouldn't be too bad... it'd give you a chance to wear the old karate gi again, break out the good ole Shaolin numbchucks and bo staff katas... and you might even be able to con a couple of your deciples into buying you a genuine lineage proving steele at the Shaolin Temple ;) You can tell everyone how your branch was passed down from Su Kong's seniors, grandmaster Chang and grandmaster Eng http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/gallery/images_more/twins_large.gif
Start a pretty kick@ss lineage war ;)

:D

[cerebus]

AAAAAAHHH :eek: :eek: :eek: !!! BLEAH!! *Vomits on keyboard*

[Golden Tiger]

Wouldn't be too bad... it'd give you a chance to wear the old karate gi again, break out the good ole Shaolin numbchucks and bo staff katas... and you might even be able to con a couple of your deciples into buying you a genuine lineage proving steele at the Shaolin Temple ;) You can tell everyone how your branch was passed down from Su Kong's seniors, grandmaster Chang and grandmaster Eng http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/gallery/images_more/twins_large.gif
Start a pretty kick@ss lineage war ;)

:D


:rolleyes: ...............

[kwaichang]

My appologies true my math skills are rather poor. you started in 79 right?? So if you practiced consistently by my standard that would be at least 15 hours per week that would make 26 years in 2005. 3 years in Hsing Ie and other systems prior to that most of which is Japanese or Brazilian maybe. Not too bad junior.
Ok here goes. Started in Isshinryu in 1971, Trained in Hung Gar and Tang Lang from latter 71- 82 privately, took SD for 1 year that year, had to stop due to time. In 78 began cross training in Aikido and Shotokan all instruction from Uchi Deshi or 6thdan and up, cont for 14 years that brings us up to 92 been in SD since 92 i think this is close to correct. any way a total of 34-35 years this August. Fought professionally with PKA and boxing as well. Not ranked. I worked out and trained the world welter weight Kick Boxing Champ of 1983-87 EM . There is more but dont want to brag and you wouldnt believe it any way. I dont have any papers showing what I did. Have a wonderful day.
If you want the whole story Ill e-mail it to you. KC

[The Willow Sword]

Well i can corroborate some of what KC is saying about his background. And none of you here know me as a liar(hehe except for those who think i am lying :p )

KC is one of the few people at Sd that i actually got along with and that i actually consider a friend(he may not have as much affection towards me but i dont really care)
Amidst his jabs and stabs here on the forums he is actually a good guy,,,. But you dont have to take my word for it. He is happy with where he is i think.

PEACE,,TWS

[The Willow Sword]

OK i want this to be the last thing i post herein this thread. so here goes.

i think most of us here are not saying that SD is NOT a martial art and could be ineffective in fighting and such. people debate this over and over here in these threads and the truth of the matter is that it really doesnt matter what you study be it TKD or JKD or JMA and such. The fight itself and the skill therein lies with the individual and what he/she chooses to utilize.

Some here will debate martial principles until they are blue in the face,,,comparing CMA principles with JMA principles and such and we will all have our own opinions on it.

i think what most here get down on sd about are the "claims" and the "history" that it makes for itself. There is a plethera of information to counter the history claims that SD makes. The history in shaolin and the supposed southern shaolin.
we can debate things here until this thread chokes the bandwidth.

i did my research after i left because i wanted to see why it was that so many harped on sd and i wanted to find out things for myself and i did find a glaring contradiction and that lies with the picture if "SU Kong" i discovered that this is not who SD claims him to be. my proof? the pictures i have posted here and the other picture that tells who this person was(Li Baoshu) as they ARE the same individual.

Now the picture of "li Baoshu" who is named by SD "su kong tai jin". the mystery still remains as to where that picture is.(some say it is in a PT barnum book about circus oddities and some say it is in a guiness book on freaks of nature and such)and where? well,,that is to be determined. I know where i was told it was,,but i am not going to reveal that here.

as for the other picture of Li boashu(the head shot that is messy looking and not all groomed) is from this book:
(Liu Mingyu et al (eds), Zhongguo maoren
(Hairy men of China), Shenyang: Liaoning kexue jishu chubanshe, 1982)

and you can find this book at any decent university with a section on china. now i have not seen that book in person,,this is what was told to me about the author who used that pic in his study of genetics and hair in china.

This doesnt set right with me,,these findings i discovered,,for if you base your work and life on a fabrication,,what ELSE have you fabricated? to me it is deeply distrubing and did not wish to be a part of that organization any longer.

as for my personal issue with the school i trained at? yes i have one.
When you say that you are going to do something YOU DO IT. Your word is your bond. My "ego" was not deflated as some say,,,i got screwed to preserve someone ELSES EGO,in my opinion. and that doesnt set right with me. it shows a lack of integrity and shows me how i was really viewed at the school by the main teacher, and no way was i about to continue to be at a place where i was never welcomed or honored in the first place. enough said on that.

thats all i have left to say on this thread,,take it as you will,,think what you want.
Peace,,TWS

[kwaichang]

:) Wow Willow I think you are being honest with us and your self so you are basing everything you think solely on the physical proof of the pics you found is that right. kc :o

[Judge Pen]

I like Willow, but we have debated the Lai Boashi picture to death. Heck it's not even a consensus among the non-SDers that the two are the same. Williow is convinced they ARE the same person, but the only proof outside of the two debatable pictures are the use of "all-cap" to illustrate his point.

Not that I even know that Su Kong really existed. I never met him. Heck, Sin The never met him either. Maybe it's true maybe it's false, but what one believes to be true and what one can prove to be true are often miles apart.

This thread will never end. It's tiresome and the entertainment value has worn out.

[cerebus]

Hello KC. Well, if I'd wanted to belabor the point I could have mentioned much more than just the bare bones listed in my profile, but I'm not going to bother.

The question I have for you is this: if all you say about your training background is true, how can you possibly NOT see that SD isn't traditional Chinese martial arts? If even I (with my small amount of experience) find it to be so obvious, how is it you can be so easily fooled? If you have such extensive training in Praying Mantis Kung Fu, how can you watch Sin The's performance of his "Mantis" forms and not see how bad it is? Really, are you just turning a blind eye or can you truly not discern what it is you're seeing? :confused:

[kwaichang]

I have observed many Mantis forms, there are many to choose from Northern Southern 7 star etc, also I do not know what you have seen so I cant comment I do know what I have seen as far as Mantis is concerned, Mantis is a fighting system and I have seen what would be considered by many to be Shaolin Tang Lang with the low stances and all and the weaving movements so what have you seen do you have a clip or something that we can observe? Also let me say the Clips you have seen from SD are used for instruction the essence of the system is acquired by practice and dedication. The tapes you have probably observed are for instruction only not to teach spirit.

[kwaichang]

www.shaolin-wushu.de/en/downloads.htm - 23k here is a link for you to observe a few clips of the Shaolin Monks performing some forms If this is what you are comparing SD too you are right what we do looks nothing like this although I see small pieces of movements among the acrobatics. see what you think kc

[Judge Pen]

I have observed many Mantis forms, there are many to choose from Northern Southern 7 star etc, also I do not know what you have seen so I cant comment I do know what I have seen as far as Mantis is concerned, Mantis is a fighting system and I have seen what would be considered by many to be Shaolin Tang Lang with the low stances and all and the weaving movements so what have you seen do you have a clip or something that we can observe? Also let me say the Clips you have seen from SD are used for instruction the essence of the system is acquired by practice and dedication. The tapes you have probably observed are for instruction only not to teach spirit.

KC, they are referring to this:

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

Check out the "Shao-lin" grandmaster link. GM The' is doing a mantis form, but it's devoid of the typical mantis footwork and body movement. I know this form, and it's not a good mantis form. That's not to say all of SD mantis is like this. I've seen some mantis that isn't devoid of these things, but this is what was available on the internet.

For an example, compare it to this:

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=tanglangshou

This is Jake Burroughs (Three Harmonies). I took "White Ape steals the peach" from him last year. I've compared it to SD's version. It was the same form played differently. To my eye, it wasn't grossly different. I've seen probably 5 versions of this form either in person or from the net, and they are all played differently.

The problem with 99.9% (myslef included sadly) of SD is that we learn too many different forms so that the distinguishing hallmarks of the different styles are often lost or blended together. Not that they aren't taught. Heck, not that the underlying drills and training aren't taugth either. But before we can really get it down, we move on to something else. It's not that the principles ren't there, it's that the majority of students don't put the time in. It's not a problem exclusive to SD, but SD is the (endless) debate at hand. I've seen some very good schools with iron clad lineages fall victim to the same problem.

[norther practitioner]

www.shaolin-wushu.de/en/downloads.htm - 23k here is a link for you to observe a few clips of the Shaolin Monks performing some forms If this is what you are comparing SD too you are right what we do looks nothing like this although I see small pieces of movements among the acrobatics. see what you think kc


:rolleyes:

there are some better clips of shaolin around..

unless you are looking to show the acrobatics side.

[cerebus]

Personally I have seen the Shaolin Monks version of Mantis, Contemporary Wushu Mantis, Seven-star Mantis, and I think it was Eight-Steps Mantis. All of these had similar "Mantis" body movement and footwork (though overly exaggerated in the Monks and the Wushu case).

I've also seen clips of SD's versions of Drunken Boxing, Tiger Boxing and Hsing-I (as well as having seen the traditional Chinese Versions of these arts). Most were from different schools, all from supposed high-ranking blackbelts and it was a similar experience in each case. They were doing the motions, but their method of body movement and power expression looked like they were doing Karate, not Kung Fu.

I also have an aquaintance who was a black belt in SD many years ago and have discussed this with him. He felt the same way after having seen some traditional Chinese instructors demonstrate their arts. He initially tried to train with a variety of CMA instructors to put into his SD forms what they were lacking (the particular styles of body movement and power generation which are different for each of these arts) but gave it up as a lost cause and began training in an authentically Chinese art (Yin style Bagua). When I met him he'd been training in Yin Bagua for about two years and was amazed at the depth to be found in traditional Bagua as opposed to what he had learned in SD.

Once again, I'm not saying SD is not a good art in it's own way, but I am saying that it ISN'T a Chinese Martial art. I think Karate is a good art, I think Kenpo is a good art (I've trained in both). But if a practitioner of either of those arts tried to claim them to be traditional Chinese Kung Fu, I'd have to call them on it (sometimes the "Shaolin Kempo" guys try to advertise themselves as being "Kung Fu", :rolleyes: ).

Anyway, over the years I've seen many Karate practitioners learn a Chinese form for a tournament. They learn the external techniques and all that, but the only power generation and body-movement method they have is from Karate and it shows. This is exactly what it looks like to me whenever I see a clip of an SD practitioner doing a form.

[Golden Tiger]

Check out the "Shao-lin" grandmaster link. GM The' is doing a mantis form, but it's devoid of the typical mantis footwork and body movement. I know this form, and it's not a good mantis form.

This clip is often refered to and mistaken for "Enters the Door". Actually, it is bits of Tang Lang Chien that was filmed FOR A MOVIE TEST TRAILER. Nothing more, nothing less. It was done to have the essence of Mantis and a tad of flash added in. It is a good representation of the Tang Lang forms that were taught out many moons ago but is nothing like the Mantis seminars taught a few years back.

I will agree with most that TOO much material is taught out too quickly. Its the classic "quality vs quantity" problem. But, thats the nature of the beast. Either you like it that way or you don't.

[Judge Pen]

This clip is often refered to and mistaken for "Enters the Door". Actually, it is bits of Tang Lang Chien that was filmed FOR A MOVIE TEST TRAILER. Nothing more, nothing less. It was done to have the essence of Mantis and a tad of flash added in. It is a good representation of the Tang Lang forms that were taught out many moons ago but is nothing like the Mantis seminars taught a few years back.

I will agree with most that TOO much material is taught out too quickly. Its the classic "quality vs quantity" problem. But, thats the nature of the beast. Either you like it that way or you don't.

I was mistaken then. It did look like "enters the door." It still doesn't have the feel of a mantis like the more recent forms that were taught out do have.

[Thunaric]

New Kid's Book

http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/fiveancestors/

[Vash]

Question:

Is it required of SD students to learn the volume of "kata" so often complained about, or does the syllabus vary instructor to instructor?

[kwaichang]

there are required forms for rank and other forms one can learn as well on the SD site I think there is a required list of forms kc

[wdl]

Question:

Is it required of SD students to learn the volume of "kata" so often complained about, or does the syllabus vary instructor to instructor?

It sort of varies from region to region.

If you look here:

http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

Look at the first black to second black requirements. Alot of the stuff is taught electively. What is taught here in Tennessee are the four tigers, four spears, classical pa kua and Tai Chi. None of the rest of it is taught as rank advancement and the previously mentioned forms are the ones tested over. As far as I know other regions teach some other stuff as rank advancement, however the core of the system there are the forms mentioned and they are tested over everywhere. Without all of the other stuff it's alot to learn in two years.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

Yes. For example I know that the group in Atlanta must learn Tang Lang Chien as well as the 4 Tigers, 4 spears, Tai Chi 64 and classical Pa Kua. It may vary in Kentucky and out west under the Soards.

[Golden Tiger]

Question:

Is it required of SD students to learn the volume of "kata" so often complained about, or does the syllabus vary instructor to instructor?


From white belt to 1st black, there is a pretty much universal standard of material that is required. After that, each rank of black has required and optional forms and a min time requirement. Although this seems to now vary by "region" , thats the way it generally is.

Required:

1st to 2nd- Tai Chi (Yang 64) and Classical Pa Kua
2nd to 3rd- Hsing Ie (5 roads, 12 animals,Linkage)
3rd to 4th- 4 roads/books of the Hua
4th to 5th- 5 drunken immortals
5th on- ;)

To each of these ranks, optional material is added to make 10 forms total for advancement.

Again, this may vary in different places but as a whole, thats the way it is done.

[Jhapa]

New Kid's Book

http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/fiveancestors/

are you the author?

[Thunaric]

are you the author?


No, not at all. I just saw some news on it. Its written by a Shaolin Do brown belt, therefore I thought it had relevance here one way or the other.

[Golden Tiger]

No, not at all. I just saw some news on it. Its written by a Shaolin Do brown belt, therefore I thought it had relevance here one way or the other.

I don't know the guy personally but from those who have read it, they say that it is a very well written childrens book. There are supposed to be more coming out later in the set.

[Jhapa]

i did a little search on amazon, and his 2nd book/cd is coming out on sept. hmm

[Fred Sanford]

Let's not lose sight of the fact that shaolin-do is some fake a$$ bull$heet. Hope y'all have enjoyed being lied to and deceived. LOLOLOLOLOL.

[Judge Pen]

Hey Fred, this thread was almost dead: no one had posted on it in several days and yet you feel the need to come in and post again just to say that? You're a class act man, really. Let this thing die man; stop complaining about our stuff and worry about your own.

[BeiTangLang]

And your sparring gear is too **** pink.


For PK:

Dat's Just Da Wa I talk1!1 (http://www.wiggaz.com)


LOL!, Thats just wrong! (Thanks for posting it! LOL!)

[kwaichang]

Once there was a mosquito who thought he was a fly and the "fly" kept saying he was a Fly. So was he a fly or a mosquito ? Either way i squashed him. Did I use Shuto or buddha "s Palm good question. Did I kill the fly or the mosquito? Who cares as long as it is dead. kc :eek: :confused:

[Ralphie]

There once was a man from Kent
Who had a dik so long it was bent
When she rolled over
It doubled over
And instead of coming he went.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

:eek: :confused:

Why is this thread still active?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Judge Pen]

:eek: :confused:

Why is this thread still active?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

It shouldn't be.

[wdl]

Can this thread be locked Gene?

Seriously, it's just pointless now(like it ever was). It's time to wait for the next SD thread to come about. It's just like Ground Hog Day.

-Will

[herb ox]

pretty soon we'll have an annual event... the resurrect Shaolin-Do challenge.


good grief :rolleyes:

herb ox

[Ralphie]

that's pretty good MK, how about this:

There once was a grandmaster with a mullet
Who out of his golden cyborg shot a rocket
His snake style was defeated
As lies were repeated
But there's quite a bit of cash in his pocket

[Starchaser107]

Once there was a mosquito who thought he was a fly and the "fly" kept saying he was a Fly. So was he a fly or a mosquito ? Either way i squashed him. Did I use Shuto or buddha "s Palm good question. Did I kill the fly or the mosquito? Who cares as long as it is dead. kc :eek: :confused:


Quite Profound!

[ninthdrunk]

I haven't been around for awhile, but I wanted to drop in and say hi to all the sd folks!

I agree Hsing ie sword is freakin awesome!

lxtruong, congrats on the test! I hope hsing ie is treating you well.


Ben

[lxtruong]

I haven't been around for awhile, but I wanted to drop in and say hi to all the sd folks!

I agree Hsing ie sword is freakin awesome!

lxtruong, congrats on the test! I hope hsing ie is treating you well.


Ben

Congrats to you on your test too. Hsing-Ie is treating me well, but not my knees so much so. Stupid Dragon.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

How this thread was allowed to get up to 81 pages is beyond me!! I mean, what's the point. It's not like anyone is ever actually going to sift through all of those pages of pointless babble. Please, Amida Buddha, strike this abominable thread from the annals of the Kungfumagazine forum!!

[Judge Pen]

How this thread was allowed to get up to 81 pages is beyond me!! I mean, what's the point. It's not like anyone is ever actually going to sift through all of those pages of pointless babble. Please, Amida Buddha, strike this abominable thread from the annals of the Kungfumagazine forum!!

At least close it. . . That way people can refer to it the next time a pointless SD debate comes along.

[BM2]

Actually the thread was started by a cleaver troll.
It would be better to change the thread's title to " Pointless SD debate." Closing it would only spawn another thread.

[Judge Pen]

No, we tried that. Fred brought it back to life after it was dormant for a week.

[wdl]

Allow me to pass out the coffee mugs filled with a great soupy substance known as STFU in it. This is my last post on this thread, barring something unbelievable and or absolutely obsurd.

-Will

[Fred Sanford]

No, we tried that. Fred brought it back to life after it was dormant for a week.

LOL

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

[humbleman]

I studied Shaolin-Do for a few years in Erie, PA. I am not a black belt and therefor am not considered nor claim to be a representative of the system. However, Erie has a rather prolific and competitive martial arts community. During my time of study, quite a few extremely competent martial artists were visitors at the kwoon. (excuse me Sensei Brian, Dojo!) There were times I vividly remember some of the power of Shaolin-Do manifesting that seemed to have a religious effect on those who witnessed it, namely they invoked the name of religious deitys in ways I had never heard before. Then I pulled myself out of the broken drywall between the wall stuccos and dusted myself off. :eek: :eek:

[David Jamieson]

Those cleaver trolls are even worse than the clever ones. heh heh.

Shaolin DOH! though it may be good krotty will not find a fan base from teh ranks of those who taste from Shaolin arts for the most part.

goes over real big with the Nascar Gi set though it seems. :D

[Golden Tiger]

goes over real big with the Nascar Gi set though it seems. :D


Say what you will about SD but lets leave Nascar out it.

[David Jamieson]

Say what you will about SD but lets leave Nascar out it.


Actually, on another level these "SD real chinese martial art or not?" and a nascar analogy are apropo.

Goes round and round furiously and ultimately gets nowhere. :D

[Shaolinlueb]

the question is, why is this thread the thriving thread in the shaolin forum?

[Golden Tiger]

the question is, why is this thread the thriving thread in the shaolin forum?

Because Shaolin-Do IS the predominant shaolin art, silly!

(sorry, not much to do at work today and I am a tad bored)

[Shaolinlueb]

Because Shaolin-Do IS the predominant shaolin art, silly!

(sorry, not much to do at work today and I am a tad bored)



WAKA WAKA WAKA WAKA!

[ninthdrunk]

Hsing ie six harmonies staff in September!

Not to mention the tournament is supposed to be amazingly different this time around. Based on Grandmaster Sin and Master Schaefer's comments, I am very excited about this one.

[Fred Sanford]

TTT

hahahahahahahahaha.

[ewallace]

The final answer to this question, would be to gather up all flavors of Shaolin players together. ALL OF THEM. Make a "Royal Rumble" type contest for different divisions (ie: 1-3 years of training, 4-10 years, 10+).

Of course I'd be pulling for Northern Longfist but that's just me. :)

[Judge Pen]

If it's fighting, then what would that prove? What if, God forbid, the SD people actually can fight? Does that make them more or less legitimate as a CMA claimed style?

[ewallace]

If it's fighting, then what would that prove? What if, God forbid, the SD people actually can fight? Does that make them more or less legitimate as a CMA claimed style?
Legitimate? I doubt it. More respected? Most likely. There will always be negative things said about other CMA, even within the same style. One of the reasons I am more and more turned off by CMA. Pretty soon you should hear something similair to "I practice the REAL shaolin-do".

[David Jamieson]

The final answer to this question, would be to gather up all flavors of Shaolin players together. ALL OF THEM. Make a "Royal Rumble" type contest for different divisions (ie: 1-3 years of training, 4-10 years, 10+).

Of course I'd be pulling for Northern Longfist but that's just me. :)

sil lum hung kuen with a heavy background in hard hei gung pwns you! :p

[Judge Pen]

Legitimate? I doubt it. More respected? Most likely. There will always be negative things said about other CMA, even within the same style. One of the reasons I am more and more turned off by CMA. Pretty soon you should hear something similair to "I practice the REAL shaolin-do".

I don't think it would make a difference. We can be good at whatever we do, call it CMA, karate, kempo, kung tao, b.s., whatever, and not be well respected because of the claims that have been made. My take on all of this is that the conditioning and training isn't a real concern for most of the detractors; the problem most people seem to have is that the popular conception is that SD isn't what SDers say it is.

[ewallace]

Well, if the majority of the SD players were left standing, then maybe it would quiet some critics. But since it will never happen, lets just keep making fun of it. :) It's just a debate that can never be won on either side.

[ninthdrunk]

Dangit....I didn't want to jump in on this, but curiosity got the better of me.


What exactly is "wrong" with the Texas Shaolin Do schools?

[ewallace]

Dangit....I didn't want to jump in on this, but curiosity got the better of me. What exactly is "wrong" with the Texas Shaolin Do schools?
Nothings wrong, clearly everything in Texas is bigger and better. :D

[BM2]

Pretty soon you should hear something similair to "I practice the REAL shaolin-do".

Actually that was preety funny. :)

[cho]

If it's fighting, then what would that prove? What if, God forbid, the SD people actually can fight? Does that make them more or less legitimate as a CMA claimed style?

Well, back in 2001/02, Willow Sword was getting pretty heated on these boards during an SD debate with another poster named Reemul. WS challenged him, went to meet him, and reported back here saying he lost. That didn't really change anybody's opinion.

[Fred Sanford]

SD is crap. What a waste of time and effort. I just wonder how good some of those 20 year students could be if they had studied an actual martial art.

[David Jamieson]

Ok, let's get this thread back to some real debating. I'll start with:

Nuh uh.

ok, next!

[kwaichang]

Here is an interesting quote and link that confirmes the History of Shaolin Do, although it does not mention by name Soo Kong Tai Jin it does hint to the fact that the Shaolin Masters left China and went to Indonesia as well as other places. So now we can all be at peace. :) KC


A history of Chinese Kun Tao in Indonesia

By Willem de Thouars

MY REMINISCENCE OF AN ERA THAT HAS GONE BY IN HISTORY, A TRIBUTE TO CHINESE KUN TAO TRAINING IN INDONESIA.

Many misconceptions have surrounded the Chinese martial arts practiced by the Chinese in Indonesia, and by many who have assumed that Kun Tao is some interbred martial art that found its beginnings in Indonesia. In clarifying this misunderstood issue, as we enter the 21st century, I must begin touching the surface of the history of Kun Tao first, before I write about the physical training in Chinese Kun Tao as I have endured in the archipelago.

Safeguarded from non-Chinese outside the South East Asian communities, the meaning of Kun Tao is in essence, a variety of Chinese combative arts practiced by Chinese. These fighting arts of self-defense are absolute entities of the "old" Shao Lin boxing arts brought by Shao Lin masters to the archipelago.

Always shrouded with a mystery to outsiders, Chinese Shao Lin boxers trained their arts under strict supervision of masters in secrecy. In safeguarding their secrets behind closed doors from the "crude" intrusiveness of the Indonesian natives, Chinese settlers had quite often to overcome many hardships and unfair harassment from the natives, and were forced to retaliate physically for their survival.

Several of the merchants were also fully trained Kun Tao experts, acknowledged in China as "seasoned" practitioners, they were the founding fathers of secret "Family" Shao Lin societies in Palembang, Makassar, Semarang, Bogor, Bandung and "old" Batavia, or Djakarta.
There are variable means when the name is applied, for instance the terminology for Chinese fighting art in the Mandarin language appears as Chuan Do (a way of kung fu),
... GONE BY IN HISTORY, A TRIBUTE TO CHINESE KUN TAO TRAINING IN INDONESIA. ... by the Chinese in Indonesia, and by many who have assumed that Kun Tao is ...
www.mindspring.com/~achentaiji/kun%20tao%20history.htm - 25k

[The Willow Sword]

http://www.orlandokuntao.com/master_frameset_willem.html


Here is a history on the Author of the article that KC posted. Nowhere in this article is there a mention of Sin kwang the' Le chang ming or sukong. Nor does he make reference to shaolin do. So how does this article prove the history of Shaolin do exactly? Oh that chinese immigrants came to indonesia? okay i will buy that. it Still doesnt explain the gaps in the family tree of Sin the' or any of the other students that Supposed Ie chang ming taught. Where are they? are they still in Indonesia training in the lost shaolin seceretive art?

This article Proves the History of Kuntao KC NOT Shaolin-do,,,but thanks for the article. Very informative indeed. :o


Every traditional and legitamate family system be it shaolin or hung gar or mantis has a family tree to signify who started what and who taught what. It gives the Masters ,Students and the masters assistant teachers at the time. And then the history is passed on to the chosen disciple(s) who has been with the master for the longest time. If you look at the records and family trees of just about every other CMA and JMA you will find this to be evident. Where is your alls eh?

What you guys DO have is a black and white picture of a person who is not who it is claimed to be and a "PAINTING" of the next generation of master (ie chang ming)
So where are the other students of Ie chang ming aside from SIn the and Hiang the?


hehe sorry i just had to jump back in for a moment and make this point.

Peace,,,TWS

[kwaichang]

I said that Soo Kong Tai Jin was not mentioned however the history as I have learned it corresponds almost verbatim of what is in the article, it even mentions that the "OLD" Shaolin masters went to that area, that is what I have read and discovered happened with Master Ie. It also has many other corresponding similarities.
Because GGM Soo Kong is not mentioned makes sense he was in China not Indonesia. Master Ie was in Indonesia which does make sense and so does the other statements that correspond with the history of SD. Also in the article the terms for the chinese martial arts are synonymous Chuan do, KunTao, Kung fu , Wu Shu Chuan Fa sorry you are wrong, all anyone has to do is read the article to see the similarities. Im sorry your mad and made the wrong decision, to quit a true "OLD" Shaolin art. Also note that you can call Shaolin Do Chinese Boxing if you want so you can call it Kun Tao in Indonesia and Kung fu in China or Chuan Fa or just Shaolin Do. What it is called does not change what it is a true Shaolin art brought to Indonesia by Grand Master Ie and called Kun Tao or Shaolin do. By the way I did not write the article a master of Kun Tao did and he doesnt have a dog in this fight even though what he said seems to be very very similar to what I have learned. KC :rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

BTW WS the article you posted is on the author of the article I posted why would he, the writer, mention SD or GM The in an article about the other guy KC :confused:

[kwaichang]

Sanford, You would not have to wonder if you challenged a 20 year veteran of SD when you recover and are out of ICU you would know unless you recieved irrreversible brain damage. KC :p

[cerebus]

Well kwaichang, SOME of you certainly seem to have brain damage... ;)
Shaolin Do may be many things, but it is NOT a traditional Chinese martial art. It obviously IS Sin The's idea of what traditional Chinese MA is supposed to be. Unfortunately for you fellas, that's just not the same thing. Peace. ;)

[kwaichang]

Well Cerebus how do you define a True CMA what is your criteria a Lineage or is it body mechanics since you were not there when all this occured and when the Shaolin Masters left China what do you base your Opinion on ? KC ;)

[BM2]

[QUOTE=The Willow Sword][url]
So where are the other students of Ie chang ming aside from SIn the and Hiang the?

Masters Liu Su Peng, Je Jou (shiao) Fu, and Qui Kwong were also instructors.

You may recall, WS, of the 1992 visit to Bandung in which a performance by a school of another stundent of Master Ie's gave to the SD group.

[Radhnoti]

Cerebus, do you think it's possible that Willem De Thours would look at what you consider "traditional kung-fu" and call it flowery useless wushu? It seems to be a COMMON critique offered by Indonesian kuntao players. It is also (as near as I can tell) common for kuntao practicioners to believe their lineage is "real/true/old kungfu". There are also quite a few kuntao folks tracing their lineage back to "shaolin". Maybe part of the problem a lot of kung-fu players have with shaolin-do would also apply to a lot of kuntao styles?

BM2, I've not heard too much about that exchange. Any idea what they performed? Differences and similarities? Thanks.

kwaichang, do you think that the name of shaolin-do's GGM is a partial transmission of information? Su Kong = si gung? If so, calling him Great grandmaster Su Kong is repeating ourselves. Lots of stuff like this in shaolin-do...partial transmissions of information...information mangled (like Texas calling the short forms tan tui)...it's all very consistant with a style of kuntao.

[Shaolinlueb]

so has anyone heard about the shaolin do performance at the shaolin temple long ago? i heard it was amazing :rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

GGM Soo Kong Tai Jin was the name given to the child at the temple later in his training I do not recall the original name. also Master Ie might have taken a different name as was the custom in Indonesiia at that time of Chinese Immigrants KC :) Good discussion

[BM2]

so has anyone heard about the shaolin do performance at the shaolin temple long ago? i heard it was amazing :rolleyes:

Uhhhh.... Wasn't there but unforgetable :p The one from mid to later 90s? Hopefully there were some that performed well, Gene stated some shouldn't have performed in his opinion.

[kwaichang]

Now that we can trace the SD art to the Shaolin Temples via the "Kun Tao" article I posted we can all just enjoy each others company on the web and stop trying to slander an Art and it s practioners, lets end it now and acknowledge the truth of SD and its history "thank you thank you very much Elvis has left the bldg KC :) :rolleyes: :p :eek:

[Radhnoti]

kc - "GGM Soo Kong Tai Jin was the name given to the child at the temple later in his training..."

I'm not sure about that...the thing that prompted me to start thinking about the name Su Kong was a line from something I read of Master Hiang's. In it he was referred to as Grandmaster Tai Jin, glancing around over there I didn't see them refer to him as "GM Su Kong" either. Su Kong could EASILY be a phonic interpretation of the Chinese shigung which means grandmaster.
Su Kong Tai Jin is a person GM Sin never met, when GM Ie referred to him it would make sense that he would add the honorific. I think current SD students trying to ALSO add the honorific have ended up saying the title twice. Gold Tiger stated...either earlier in this or in another thread... that he hadn't heard the higherups call him Grandmaster Su Kong and that it was a possibility.

A mangled transmission of information occuring between the time in Indonesia and the U.S. What might have been lost/changed/altered between China and Indonesia? Shaolin-do is it's own thing now. Closer to (admittedly only arts I've read about) kuntao than current kungfu, in my opinion.

[kwaichang]

You may be right but I am sure his name was different prior to entering the temple, meaning other than Tai Jin Tai means grand as in Tai Chi, or can mean other things I know context and all. I am sure I have heard another name but cant recall what it was the name Su Kong was prob added later after his studies and later in life maybe after he was considered the Mastyer at Fukien Temple KC :)

[BM2]

If he was left to die, I doubt that he had a name as his parents wouldn't have named him.

[kwaichang]

I agree with you but I know the child had another name maybe Im just getting old and senile. Il research it further. Very astute observation about the title and all I knew that but never put 2 and 2 togethor thinking about forms and all, e-mail me and let me know where you are KC :(

[Judge Pen]

They could have shaved his name into his chest before leaving him in the forest. :p

I think Rad's right. SD is closer to kun tao then kung fu, but it is it's own animal now. Many things have been lost in translation or left out which have changed our art somewhat. Not that it's a bad thing, it is just different than other CMA arts that have been filtered through other countries and cultures. Some things we do are very traditional. . . . other things are contemporary and added to satisfy the culture of the time and place.

With regard to our interaction with other art. . . . Live and let live. It is arrogant for us to authoritatively state that we know everything about their art because we practice some of it. Look for similarities, appreciate the differences and treat all with respect and an attitude of learning. If we all did that, and talked less about how great we were, I think less people would have a problem with SD. Of course there's always Fred Sanford. . . . :D But, as annoying as he can be, I can look for something to respect him. . . . he recently went to Iraq to help with security, so you have to give props to anyone who puts himself out there like that.

I know some people who are looking into the kung tao link, and have found some leads into current teachers and schools with links to the teachers that taught along GM Ie. Nothing authoritative yet, but there's information out there if people are willing to dig. I hope his research turns up some interesting ideas about SD, kung tao, and shaolin kung fu.

[The Willow Sword]

So the Moooovie is coming out soon then eh? All the research has been done? Tracks are being covered,,,copywrites in place? actors selected? the set is being built to start shooting? Miss wangs world of hair is getting a big order in for the actors and stunt doubles? and i will just bet New Zealand is where things are being filmed? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I hope its a musical :cool: i hope i hope i hope. :D

[Ralphie]

regarding that name tai jin...I think the shigong or soo kong is right in that it refers to the creator of the style. However tai jin or tai ren in mandarin refers to tai as in extreme and ren just means person, so extreme person. Tai doesn't mean grand in the way you may think of it. Draw your own conclusions after that.

[humbleman]

anyway. Hsing-i interests me, and tiger fork. Hsing-i loosely translates as "old man hit hard"?

[The Willow Sword]

SCENE 1 ACT ONE:

Fades to: an early morning Temple,,the Mist gently Clings to the bamboo,,and the whiporwills chirp the rising of the sun.

Cuts to: the Door of the temple and a mysterious woman running away leaving behind at the door a Basket (with something in side :( )

Cuts to: the lesser monks waking up and slowly muddling about yawning and stretching,,waking up. An early Morning GONG breaks the silence and echoes through the trees and mountains.

Cuts to: The Door to the temple opens up and a monks steps out with his broom to sweep away the fall leaves on the steps when he notices the basket laying there,,covered and something moving within it.

He opens the basket............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................
:eek: HORY SH!T!!!!! (MUSIC STARTS,,GRROOVY JAZZ WITH CHINESE VIOLINS AND ELECTRIC GUITARS,,,its music music music music,,BROADWAY MUSIC)

Monk is running with the basket throgh the temple singing "Look at what i found what i found what i found,,Look at THIS OMG Look at THIS ,,LOOK AT THISSSSS"

Monks chorus as they are flipping and doing acrobatics some meditating opening thier eyes all singing " WHAT WHAT WHAT WHAT WHATS THE BUZZ TELL me WHATS a HAPPENIN Whats the BUZZ tell me whats a happenin WHATS the Buzz tell me whats a happenin,,,,What did you find what did you find what did you fiiiiinnnnnnnd???"
monk solo: I found a baby at the door its a real,, wierd,, baby,, it has lots of hair i think it may be a dog :eek: i dont know i dont know im confused,,,whats this whats this?

at this time the dancing monks parade around the monk with the basket holding the hairy baby (the music is really hoppin now) MONKS CHORUS: LET US SEE LET US SEE LET US SEE SEE SEEEE"
one monk: OMG WHAT IS THAT
another monk: I DONT KNOW I DONT KNOW
yet another monk: ITS A DEMON ITS A DEMON OMG ITS A DEMON
and yet another monk" WE SHOULD THROW IT DOWN THE WELL,,,WE SHOULD THROW IT DOWN THE WELL.
All Monks: I AGREE I AGREE WE SHOULD THROW IT DOWN THE WELL<<WE SHOULD THROW IT DOWN THE WELL<<<
Monks shouting: THROW IT IN THE WELL!!!!

Monk holding basket clutches it tightly and SHOUTS: WAIT!!!!! (then silence)
(happy positive new age music now) " we are buuuudhists we are buuuuuudhists
we should be merciful and kind,,that is our way,,lets not give ourselves in to fear,,,,let us spare this unfortunate chillld,,let us spare himmmmmmmm
Monks chorus: "Buddhas name be praised buddhas name be praised"

small monk in the background with high whiney voice "Lets take him to the abbot"?

All monks look at the small monk,,,then the Groovy 70's braodway jazz starts up again. Chorus"yes we will take him to the abbot we will take him to the abbot,,to the aboot to the abbot we will gooooooooooo(they all stop and look at the camera and say) "WHATA GREAT IDEA" chorus: To the abbot to the abbot to the abbot we will go.

All Monks enter with Hairy baby to the main temple hass flipping and doing acrobatics,,some meditating and there in the golden chair is the abbot and they put the basket with the Hairy baby in from of him. They back away and watch intensely as the abbot walks over and looks at the Hairy demon looking child.

ABBOT: WE WILL TEACH HIM.........................KUNG FU!!!!!! :eek: :eek:
AND HIS NAME WILL BE ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,SU. :eek: :eek:


END ACT ONE SCENE ONE. (Whew Boy oh boy thats alot of work :o )

[Judge Pen]

You have too much time on your hands Willow. Maybe you should let some of that energy out in training.

[kwaichang]

So Willow you are a fan of Jesus Christ Super Star I saw Ted Neely the original on stage at 53 years still singing the high notes it was incredible keep going I am printing this and am going to be a millionaire. Its actually very creative. KC Judge is right though maybe more training will help. :o

[The Willow Sword]

JP: :D It was Late i couldnt sleep,,i had actually been at the gym a couple of hours before hand weight training. You know how it is when you train in the early evening,,you are revved up and your metabolism is racing?


KC :cool: Yes Indeed, IN fact JCSS and Hair are the only musicals on broadway and in the theatre that i like and can tolerate.

Peace,,TWS

[ninthdrunk]

You should see Avenue Q...it was a riot. Jess and I went to see it while in the city. It's like an adult version of Sesame Street!

[Fred Sanford]

Ttt...............

[Judge Pen]

Ttt...............

You don't want to let this go do you Fred?

[Ralphie]

close this thread...it sux, and the conclusion is SD is what it is. Mods, do your job, please.

[MonkeySlap Too]

KwaiC said: Sanford, You would not have to wonder if you challenged a 20 year veteran of SD when you recover and are out of ICU you would know unless you recieved irrreversible brain damage. KC

my response: Bwaha-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaaaa!!! I play with Fred on a regular basis, and am happy to take bets on any SD master who wants to "cross hands" with him. We can do it on indian land, so there won't be any problems...

[MonkeySlap Too]

Rhadnothti said: Cerebus, do you think it's possible that Willem De Thours would look at what you consider "traditional kung-fu" and call it flowery useless wushu? It seems to be a COMMON critique offered by Indonesian kuntao players. It is also (as near as I can tell) common for kuntao practicioners to believe their lineage is "real/true/old kungfu". There are also quite a few kuntao folks tracing their lineage back to "shaolin". Maybe part of the problem a lot of kung-fu players have with shaolin-do would also apply to a lot of kuntao styles?

My reply; No. As someone who knows Willem personally, and is a direct student of his lineage heir for bladework, I can say with certainty that willem would not refer to the Tang Shou Tao stuff as useless or flowery. There are too many similarities. He does disparage flowery stuff, but by flowery it is often refering to practicing stuff that can't be used - much like what I see out of SD.

Is SD a 'form' of Kun Tao? Sure, any system with Chinese influences, even karate, can be called Kun Tao in it's loosest sense. Is this what teaches of KTS mean when they talk about 'Kun Tao'? No. Your Kun Tao is not my Kun Tao, pal.

Look, one of my teachers has a soft spot for sin The' - looks at the crazy stuff he says, and points out that a LOT of Indo teachers say crazy stuff. But for me, I look at the content, and the behavior of the followers - except for JP, I see a flood of true beleivers that will follow Sin The all the way to the Flav-R-aid table, despite the mountain of information they are faced with.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Judge Pen said: With regard to our interaction with other art. . . . Live and let live. It is arrogant for us to authoritatively state that we know everything about their art because we practice some of it. Look for similarities, appreciate the differences and treat all with respect and an attitude of learning. If we all did that, and talked less about how great we were, I think less people would have a problem with SD.

My Reply: This is sage advice. SD has a real problem in beleiving it's own press, something that is pretty easy to disprove.

[Golden Tiger]

I play with Fred on a regular basis
:eek: nuff said......



....and am happy to take bets on any SD master who wants to "cross hands" with him.

:rolleyes: smells of "my dad can beat up your dad"..... MST, have you went up against many and/or any or the SD masters? I wonder how you can make an informed statement such as this.




SD has a real problem in beleiving it's own press, something that is pretty easy to disprove

And yet after more than 1200 posts, you haven't been about to provide it......


I knew better than to get on here but idle minds are tools of the devil.....

[MonkeySlap Too]

Oh GT, you rascally true beleiver you... you left offf the part where KC says Fred will end up in the icu. Which, I can pretty much gaurentee would not happen.

Who says I haven't had first hand experience?

Oh, and try the grape Flav-R-Ade, the rat poison is less bitter than in the cherry.

[BM2]

My view is to keep this thread open to avoid another from being started.
MST, could you PM me on who you have seen?

[Golden Tiger]

Oh GT, you rascally true beleiver you... you left offf the part where KC says Fred will end up in the icu. Which, I can pretty much gaurentee would not happen.


Yes, I did leave that off (probably due to sub-conscious bias) and I agree, very few end up in the ICU.


Who says I haven't had first hand experience?


No one that I know of. That's why I asked. You shouldn't answer a question with a question.

By the way, SD is celebrating its 40th year anniversity. Aren't ya happy for us?

[MasterKiller]

By the way, SD is celebrating its 40th year anniversity. Aren't ya happy for us? That's funny. I thought you were celebrating your 1,540th anniversary... :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

That's funny. I thought you were celebrating your 1,540th anniversary... :rolleyes:

SD, as we know it in the U.S., is 40 years old.

[kwaichang]

Those who know do not speak, Those who speak usually just show their Ignorance and remove all doubt, Monkey Slap, Also I wonder who Fred Sanford is and where is Lamont KC

[MonkeySlap Too]

KwaiChang, I'm glad you finally realized that. You can go on speaking now, as it is pretty much obvious you do not know...

[MonkeySlap Too]

Oh, and please KWC, don't play internet tough guy, it's boring, especially when SD is widely known for what it isn't - all the things it claims to be.

I'm pretty well known by players on the board. Don't try to bite off something you can't chew.

[Golden Tiger]

I'm pretty well known by players on the board. Don't try to bite off something you can't chew.


:rolleyes: .............

[MasterKiller]

:rolleyes: .............

Forgive them Lord, they know not what MS2 can do. :eek:

[kwaichang]

OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know and remember I before e except after C work on your spelling you will be more believable. So you "play" with who else? Give me a brek show a clip of what you can do Monkey boy KC :confused:

[MasterKiller]

OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know and remember I before e except after C work on your spelling you will be more believable. Yeah, grammar is certainly your strong point.

[Golden Tiger]

Forgive them Lord, they know not what MS2 can do. :eek:


"As I walk though the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no MS2....GT 3:16

By the way, have you seen MS2 in action? Love to see some video of that......

[Fred Sanford]

LMAO. The SD losers are at it again.

[Vash]

By the way, have you seen MS2 in action? Love to see some video of that......

*sniff sniff*

That smells of challenge.

Well, that, and hella much hubris.

[kwaichang]

What school do you come from NO School, No school what style do you study? NO style. The monkey is a coward, so, Remember the way of the monkey is to play the fool and while you laugh at his antics he bites you from behind. Quote from CIRCLE OF IRON. Much truth I think :p KC

[MonkeySlap Too]

Some SD fool said:
"OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know"

REPLY: So, you are telling me you aren't very bright. Your wisdom and maturity continues to impress me Kool-aid Drinker.

[kwaichang]

Nothing of you impresses me kc

[MonkeySlap Too]

Why would you think that I care?

It is very hard for a person to be mature and realize they have been misled. I can understand your anguish, and need to lash out, as your personal investment in your own judgement has been called into question by just about everyone outside your cult.

Be brave. You'll find your way.

[ewallace]

what style do you study? NO style.


Combat Shuai Chiao, KunTao Silat, and other stuff


OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know
A lil research and a mouse click or two can prevent asking already answered questions as well as prevent preconceived answers that turn out to be false.
Those who open their mouth...

[kwaichang]

You must feel you have something to prove or you would not keep responding therefore it is reasonable to assume you care. because none of what you say can be proven or disproven. Everything else is conjecture on your part kc :eek:

[MonkeySlap Too]

KC said: "Everything else is conjecture on your part kc"

REPLY: Why do you talk to yourself?

And, no it is not conjecture, it is a logical assumption based on A.) You are an SD 'true-beleiver.' Therefore B.) Whatever you did before wasn't very good/was too hard for you/you did not understand. Otherwise, you would not be a 'true-believer' of the Mullet Fist.

Okay, I need to go find some adults to chat with. You kids argue amongst yourselves...

[GeneChing]

Speaking of that, any of you SD guys no anything about Kung Fu Kitchen? They're asking me for sponsorship. WTF?

[kwaichang]

HAHA I laugh in your general direction KC

[ewallace]

Speaking of that, any of you SD guys no anything about Kung Fu Kitchen? They're asking me for sponsorship. WTF?
It's like Hell's Kitchen Gene, only with a Shaolin Do twist on it. :)

[GeneChing]

...it's a new reality tv show from the personal chef of the Soards. Don't beleive me? Check it out. (http://www.kungfukitchen.tv/Category.cfm?CategoryID=3) Stranger things have happened...like hairy-faced monks... ;)

[Fred Sanford]

:eek: :eek: LOL :eek: :eek:

[ewallace]

...it's a new reality tv show from the personal chef of the Soards. Don't beleive me? Check it out. (http://www.kungfukitchen.tv/Category.cfm?CategoryID=3) Stranger things have happened...like hairy-faced monks... ;)

Why do you want to learn to cook: To meet girls
Whoever they are they are cool in my book.

[BM2]

This thread is just getting weirder and stranger :p :( But then again, it makes me feel more normal after reading these posts :D

[cerebus]

LOL! Man, I haven't looked at this thread for awhile! I just got too tired of trying to explain things reasonably to people who have their fingers in their ears and keep repeating "na na na na na I can't hear you, I can't hear you, na na na na". :p

I have to admit though, it provided some comic relief to see quaichang asking if maybe one of the de Thouars brothers might look at the martial arts that I do & call it flashy wooshoo :D . quaichang, you might wanna know what I do before making such funny speculations. As MS2 pointed out, I'm a student of the Tang Shou Tao's Shen Lung Hsing-I. But hey, you're a shaolin-d'oh practitioner and you're taught that evryone outside of your art only does WoooShooo, right?

And to see the kind of ridiculous crap you're talking, you obviously don't have a clue what MS2 trains either. You can keep your head stuck firmly in the sand (or wherever you have it stuck) all you wish, but it just won't make your fantasies come true.

Thanks for the laughs though... :D

[kwaichang]

yo cerebus, perhaps you should re read the posts i did not say other cma are wu shu , however, others have. i only posted an article from a master of kun tao, talking about the history of cma in Indonesia.
I read the histories of you guys or girls as much as is there, but not much to read as far as their or your history in martial arts.
I for one do not have my head in the sand. I did quite a bit of research before beginning SD. I for one enjoy it and see CMA in it . I feel those who continue to try to persuade others that what SD people do is not good or CMA, is a very biased and closed minded attitude , at least what some of the SD people do is "good" Martial Arts.
Many of you guys would like to think SD people are not good fighters and you may be partially right but all people dont train to fight. I can fight but I have a "Weird" history in the MA anyway. Well I am sure many of you guys will clip this post to pieces and use small exerpts to prove a point, that also shows immaturity, but go for it.
To conclude I would like for some one to prove a point with research instead of opinions like SD people cant fight or it doesnt look a certain way and cant therefore be CMA or from the Shaolin Temples with this I open the board for proof or links to sites or what ever. Thank You KC :) :D

[cerebus]

Well, as I've posted on this thread (several times) and on other threads (maybe several hundred times), I have no doubts that many SDers can fight, I have no doubt that SD is a good martial art in it's own way, BUT that doesn't mean SD is traditional CMA (it isn't). The research demonstrating this point has been posted more times than I even care to try counting, but it obviously is useless to continue trying to lay the facts out (and probably just as useless for me to even bother posting this in the first place) because SD people generally don't want to know the truth, they want to read only that which supports their story (hence my comment about heads being in the sand).

Anyway, ignorance is bliss, and some people just want to be happy, not informed. Don't worry, be happy (you will anyway). ;)

[Fred Sanford]

i only posted an article from a master of kun tao, talking about the history of cma in Indonesia.

It's no secret that chinese people ended up in indonesia and brought kung fu with them. Your styles made up stories and elaborations are what is disputed.

You should buy a video tape of Willem De Thours or Steve Gartin so you can see what his kuntao is all about, it might open your eyes. (but probably won't). And maybe you shouldn't make assumptions about what people who you have never met would think.

[kwaichang]

I try not to make assumptions but when i attempt to open a dialogue there seems to be a reluctance from some to communicate . Instead I am asked to go to the bay area and put someone in ICU. How mature is that and how does that prove your or any ones side? I assume nothing, I too seek the truth , but it seems all you guys want is to prove how good you are with semantics. You "say" very little.
Or some of you try to project the persona of some undefeatable God. I have communicated privately with some and they are cordial and true Bushi. Yet no one has proven anything. I research all of the references that I can and there are only assumptions on your part that the "stories" are not true.
SD is a very succesful school and style, that is a good thing. I am sorry that you project the air of Jealosy with your statements perhaps not of the style though, I assume you are happy with what you do, though you dont seem to be. I wish you would try to fight another battle Fred S. I think you would have more success. KC Peace be with you. :o

[MonkeySlap Too]

KC, you sound like a chung moo guy, you run out of places to run, so you cite 'jealousy' - no, no, it's incredulity at the stupid things you guys say. I'm puzzled at how you define a succesful school...

remember, if you didn't claim to be all that and a bag of chips, no one would care. But when you read the SD stuff, and god help us, actually see SD, it's pretty obvious how wacked out some of you folks are.

As for Fred inviting you to the ICU, beleive you were the one offering that opportunnity, he's just happy to oblige you.

Dude, you are seriously misguided. You're in Austin right? Why don't you go check out Paul Geralds Shua Chiao school. Try your SD on beginning students there. See how you do in friendly competiton. Then tell me you have any legs to stand on with your arguments.

Oh, and I'mnot putting Paul on the spot. He's a true CMA player, and will play just for fun.

[Fred Sanford]

So now KC after saying the pm's would stay between us you brought things onto the public forum. Serious lack of integrity. You brought up the ICU first in a post, little punk. But while it's out here, the only person going to ICU would be you, and I would love to have the opportunity to send ya.

[kwaichang]

I never said who invited me to ICU and you are the one who wrote you had nothing to say to me,Fred. I attempted to be as vague as possible. The only time I mentioned your name was at the end of the post.
You know I for one am not concerned I have fought guys like you in the 70's I won a few I lost a few no big deal. If I went to Pauls School and had a "friendly" match and won all you guys would say is it was due to my past experience or something.
I also show respect to those who return the favor Fred. I have not insulted you on a personal level, or what you do, what ever it is, also if you reread the post about the ICU it says,
"Sanford, You would not have to wonder if you challenged a 20 year veteran of SD when you recover and are out of ICU you would know unless you recieved irrreversible brain damage" . KC However I had a couple in mind at that time.And I should not speak for them.

You seem to be a very arrogant individual and perhaps missed the one main teaching of Martial Arts to be Humble. I am sure you will site something about our style of SD saying most comprehensive or something like that. But that doesnt matter and oh I have fought many kinds of fighters and did ok but did I use shotokan punch or was it boxing no wait it was Shuri Te no no I know it was?????????? See what I mean. KC :confused:

[Golden Tiger]

You guys REALLY need to get a hobbie.....fussing over the weekend instead of getting out and enjoying the sunshine....darn shame.

Let's see....where to begin?


Otherwise, you would not be a 'true-believer' of the Mullet Fist.
Okay, I need to go find some adults to chat with. You kids argue amongst yourselves...

Calling SD "Mullet Fist"? Yes, you DO need to find some adults to chat with. Perhaps the playground mentality might wear off.


As MS2 pointed out, I'm a student of the Tang Shou Tao's Shen Lung Hsing-I.

And this means something? I checked out some the the clips on their website (I think) and while decent, I saw nothing extraordinary. The Pi' chaun looked over extended and the applications were very basic. But since MS2 pointed it out, I guess it means something.


you obviously don't have a clue what MS2 trains either.

I have asked a few times but all I get is "key board kung fu". Heck, I even asked to see the legend in action so that I may gain insight into his KFO rep but to no avail.


SD people generally don't want to know the truth

Truth is biased by perception, fact is not.


I'm puzzled at how you define a succesful school...

40 years of teaching in the US.
2 TV shows, two books, countless articles written about SD.
THOUSANDS of well trained, satisfied students.
Schools all over the US.
Students that have stayed with and trained in SD for longer that most of you have been alive.
A continued supply of material to which one can disect and pull new techniques.

Shall I go on......


Try your SD on beginning students there. See how you do in friendly competiton. Then tell me you have any legs to stand on with your arguments.

:rolleyes: Sending KC to someone else to test his skills MS2? See 1st quote and.


Serious lack of integrity. :eek:


the only person going to ICU would be you, and I would love to have the opportunity to send ya.

See 1st quote again..... :rolleyes:


Well, this was fun. Took me through my first cup of coffee but now it's time to work. Please post some more though, I'll be taking a break around noon-ish and would love the comic relief.

[Jhapa]

video tape of Willem De Thours or Steve Gartin so you can see what his kuntao is all about,

may be someone should upload a clip or two to see the similarties or differences of SD and kuntao.

[Golden Tiger]

may be someone should upload a clip or two to see the similarties or differences of SD and kuntao.


Excelent idea.

[sean_stonehart]

Excelent idea.

It would be if both parties upload who is considered their "best representative exponent" to be. No excuses, no dispariging from within the groups... put up who's the best.

Uncle Bill & Sin The? Wouldn't they be considered the best exponents??

Gartin & Leonard? 2 #1 students??

Or hell... MS2 & KC....

Or ... Fred & KC ...

Let everybody see who's ****zing the in the wind!!!

[Golden Tiger]

It would be if both parties upload who is considered their "best representative exponent" to be. No excuses, no dispariging from within the groups... put up who's the best.

Uncle Bill & Sin The? Wouldn't they be considered the best exponents??

Gartin & Leonard? 2 #1 students??

Or hell... MS2 & KC....

Or ... Fred & KC ...

Let everybody see who's ****zing the in the wind!!!


I doudt they would be interested in posting such vids since with the exception of a few (myself included)that post here, they could care less what a bunch of keyboard comandos think. That and the fact that no matter who we posted, SD or not, it would be looked at with a bias and ripped apart...simple as that.

I simply was interested is seeing what KunTao looks like that everyone refers too.

Sean, if I am not mistaken, you were in SD so why do you need to see what SD looks like? Since you have done it, one would think that you wouldn't need to see more.

Also, I just have to ask. When you went to China with the group or even in chance meetings, did you call him "Uncle Bill" when you talked to him?

Just curious......

[kwaichang]

Unless he is Master Leonards nephew he didnt,due to the fact that he is alive to cont to Post KC :) :D

[MasterKiller]

You dunderheads, "Uncle Bill" is Willem De Thours.

[kwaichang]

I thought Uncle Bill was Mr Frenchs boss HAHA I thought since he went to China with the SD people it was Elder Master Bill Leonard KC ;)

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Can Somebody tell me how I can unsubscribe to this STUPID thread!! The replies keep showing up in my e-mail inbox and I can't seem to do it in my userCP. Please make it stop!!

[sean_stonehart]

Sean, if I am not mistaken, you were in SD so why do you need to see what SD looks like? Since you have done it, one would think that you wouldn't need to see more.


Yep I was... several years, couple of black belt ranks & I chose to leave in order to do something that fit me better as a person & a MAist. My previous teacher & I are on great terms, I train regularly with one of my former classmates & we get along smashingly.

I would like to see more just for simple personal edification. I've seen a smattering of folks from Ky & Tx on the China trip mentioned below & I gotta tell ya... I was underwhelmed. So with that in mind I was wanting to see what the SD heirarchy considered "good" nowadays.

Then have a Kuntao exponent also on video running to compare the two since there was mention of doing a comparison.

That's all.



Also, I just have to ask. When you went to China with the group or even in chance meetings, did you call him "Uncle Bill" when you talked to him?

Just curious......


No actually I avoided him as best I could. There reached a point on the trip when the Ky/Tx vs Ga tensions became a little much for my taste so I didn't hang around people I didn't sweat with on a daily basis, just to avoid possible friction.

I met several people on the trip that I truly enjoyed hanging with & would again in a minute... however that number was significantly smaller than those I wouldn't care to ever again.

[sean_stonehart]

Unless he is Master Leonards nephew he didnt,due to the fact that he is alive to cont to Post KC :) :D

No but I trained his nephew & his wife for a while ... :eek: :eek: :eek:

I'm alive & breathing just fine, thanks.

[BM2]

You dunderheads, "Uncle Bill" is Willem De Thours.
Glad someone else caught that.
Also it should be added about the names being tossed around that are not even posting on here. :rolleyes:

[BM2]

And the last time I heard people talking like this was in Jr. High, oh, it is called Middle School now :o

[shen ku]

sean i hope that i would be one of those that you would still enjoy training or chatting with?

[MonkeySlap Too]

So you have people you must call 'senior master so-so' or they will beat you up?

Wow. That is so.... stupid.

Now back to talking to adults....

[sean_stonehart]

sean i hope that i would be one of those that you would still enjoy training or chatting with?

Chris indeed you were & are still. Can you eat Chinese food yet?? ;) :eek:

[shen ku]

thanks sean ,,,,,,,just the rice ,,,,,,,i lost about 10 pounds on that trip

[humbleman]

Burma and watch cobra woman mutter inaudiable invocations to ground and kiss 15 foot cobra on head and walk away unscathed (saw this in 1936 vintage national geographic film)

[humbleman]

Sad, sad pretty Jazz...poor Marie crying for her city...

[humbleman]

...doing Kung Fu, Fat Boy. When I miss, you can sidekick.

[Judge Pen]

:confused: WTF?

[Golden Tiger]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.......

[SimonM]

88 pages! Over 1300 posts!

This is the mother of all threads!

Christ on a crutch!

Buddha on the bottom of my shoe!

Holy fooking sh!t!

Perhaps it's time to call it a day and agree: some people like SD and some people don't. ;)

Post 1313. Am I not lucky?

[humbleman]

...the Bozo have the last word, and it looks like it might be me. Got me this time, didn't you, Ba-Gua Lady? Dear God, I miss her.

[Ou Ji]

C'mon man, we can make it to the 100 page mark. Let's go.

[tattoed monk]

If you would like to know as to whether Shaolin Do is for real ask some one who has been in the art and not a bunch of by-standers who have no clue as to what is or is not real Shaolin. I have studied Shaolin Do for 15 years and related martial arts for 24 years. If you can keep your egos and your pre-conceived ideas at bay long enough to hear reasonable answers to your questions I would be more than happy to answer them.

[lxtruong]

I must post. postedey post post.

[humbleman]

I don't want much, the good Lords earth beneath my feet, a gentle touch, to know one girl in life is sweet and good, there ain't no doubt, I'm talkin' about... I think I found out first hand just why Deep Purple covered that song way back in 1972...

[Judge Pen]

If you would like to know as to whether Shaolin Do is for real ask some one who has been in the art and not a bunch of by-standers who have no clue as to what is or is not real Shaolin. I have studied Shaolin Do for 15 years and related martial arts for 24 years. If you can keep your egos and your pre-conceived ideas at bay long enough to hear reasonable answers to your questions I would be more than happy to answer them.

Man, I've been in the art longer than you. Golden Tiger has been in the art longer than both of us. Before you post offereing answers, take a couple of weeks and read all the former threads on SD. Most people here have their opinions and many are more than willing to just live and let live.

But if you feel that your perspective will enlighten the forum, then post away. I must say that to many a pointless SD debate is entertainment while toiling away at work.

[sean_stonehart]

Man, I've been in the art longer than you. Golden Tiger has been in the art longer than both of us. Before you post offereing answers, take a couple of weeks and read all the former threads on SD. Most people here have their opinions and many are more than willing to just live and let live.

But if you feel that your perspective will enlighten the forum, then post away. I must say that to many a pointless SD debate is entertainment while toiling away at work.

*ouch*

Feeling sting all the way down I-75 on that one... :eek:

[Judge Pen]

*ouch*

Feeling sting all the way down I-75 on that one... :eek:

Nah, no sting intended. Just some advice from experience. If one wants to jump on the SD merry-go-round then fine, but I'm reminded of the bard when it comes to SD debates: Full of sound and fury but signifying nothing.

[MasterKiller]

I must say that to many a pointless SD debate is entertainment while toiling away at work. Hey, I resemble that remark! :eek:

[Judge Pen]

I know. ;)

[Shaolindynasty]

Funniest thing Ive seen in awhile was "mullet fist" Bwahahahahah

I can't beleive the number of pages

I personally beleive everything about SD stinks worse than a sack of @ssholes, but that's my opinon if you guys like it thats all that matters to you. :D

we are in a competitive field though so don't get mad if you get attacked on this forum. It's better than getting physically beat up like they did in the old days if someone disagrees with you :eek:

[MasterKiller]

Sin does need to work on his code fu a little, though...

http://www.sinthe.com/


The colors....the colors...

[Judge Pen]

I personally beleive everything about SD stinks worse than a sack of @ssholes, but that's my opinon if you guys like it thats all that matters to you. :D

we are in a competitive field though so don't get mad if you get attacked on this forum. It's better than getting physically beat up like they did in the old days if someone disagrees with you :eek:

I don't get mad. Your opinion is in line with many here. If it mattered to me I would quit.

[yutyeesam]

I'm guessing that most of the TCMA community looks at SD with a raised eyebrow. Just a guess.

But it doesn't really matter. We live in society with tons of MMA and XMA that any debate around SD is basically moot.

I've gotten so many Karate-cized Kung-Fu students in the past, where because of the wide bow stance that they learned, that getting used to shifting from Seiping Ma to Gung Ma and vice versa took several classes to understand. The folks who come from SD backgrounds to me are certainly no exception.

Not that it's any better or worse, it's just different. The power generation ideas are more Japanese in nature, from what I've seen. Which is why you don't see many Asian masters of this art! :D j/k

There. I've contributed to the 100 post mark! Keep it going!

[SimonM]

Hey, I resemble that remark! :eek:

I don't even have an opinion on SD (having nothing to go by but this endless argument) and I like to pop by occasionally - even if just to curse the madness of the thread that wouldn't die! :p :D

[Ou Ji]

The thread that wouldn't die. The deadliest Dim Mak can't stop it now.

So, any new sightings to prove the existense of Shaolin Do?
Mullet shots don't count. No doctored photos either.

Here's one showing the Shaolin Do 'Ride The Tiger' (http://www.actarus.it/trash/watson/Bigfoot/bigfoot_footage3.jpg) pose.

Debunk that you skeptics!

[octagonal raven]

shaolin-do looks to have a totally made up history and well I don't want to totally dog something out without having seen it first hand. I do BJJ anyway so what do I know about kung fu? It looks highly suspect though and I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Ride the tiger? more like 'ride the beyatch' oh I'm sorry was su kong a male? I forget.

[Ou Ji]

octagonal raven
Serious question for you. Why are you here?

Just wondering why so many non-cma guys feel compelled to comment about styles they know little or nothing about. Anyone have an answer for this?

[Ou Ji]

D a m n, I'm trying to hit page 90. Maybe this one will do it.

[Ou Ji]

Or this one.

Shaolin Do
Shaolin Doh!
Shaolin Dough
Shaolin Doe

[Ou Ji]

Come on 90. Here we go. 90 coming up.

[Ou Ji]

Crapped out again. Ok, got to take a break and rest.

[Ou Ji]

Hey, I just noticed my post count isn't changing. I've been stuck on 128 for quite awhile. Same with you guys.

Maybe Shaolin Do posts don't count as real comments. Or we're in the Shaolin Do Twilight Zone or something. What if we get stuck here and can't get back to normal posts.

I feel the walls moving in. Is it getting stuffy in here?

H E L P !!!!!

[BlueTravesty]

there would be a certain sense of ironic justice if posts on this thread didn't count :D

[BentMonk]

[malevolent voice of doom] YOUR POST COUNT MAY NOT CHANGE, BUT EACH WORD ON THIS THREAD INCREASES THE "FOR REALNESS" OF SHAOLIN DO. BWAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!! :D

[octagonal raven]

Serious question for you. Why are you here?

I used to do some kung fu, but at some point I realized that it wasn't too realistic for the most part. I've seen enough to know what's legit and what isn't. I won't name names but I've seen some of the people with the big names in the magazines and been to their schools and not been impressed. Shaolin-do is definately crap, sorry I guess the truth hurts.

[SimonM]

Octagonal Raven: I've seen MMA/RBSD/"Dark Arts" Masters I could wipe the floor with and I've seen Gong Fu masters who come from law enforcement backgrounds, have HAD to use martial arts in self defense regularly and who (to this day) stress test every single technique and require that their students stress test it. Sweeping generalizations such as suggesting that
I used to do kung fu, but at some point I realized it wasn't too realistic are the first stones on the path to trolldom. Had you said "I had an experience with a bad kwoon and decided to take MMA because I found a good school" you would probably be more warmly recieved. None of us here really support the image of the stereotypical "SPJ dance = 133t warrior" that many people wrongly believe dominates the Gong Fu world yet most of us at least include Gong Fu amoung our repitoires even if it is not the only martial art we have practiced.

At my kwoon they teach northern arts, southern arts and western boxing. Where does one begin and the other end? I honestly don't know. Does it matter? Not in the slightest. Gong Fu just means hard work.

[humbleman]

HOLY TANTRA, KATO!!! Just realized that the photo of Judge Penn is dead ringer of redneck in choreographed fight at truck stop in movie "Natural Born Killers". Beep! Beep! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Judge Pen]

HOLY TANTRA, KATO!!! Just realized that the photo of Judge Penn is dead ringer of redneck in choreographed fight at truck stop in movie "Natural Born Killers". Beep! Beep! :eek: :eek: :eek:

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Too bad that photo is of George Clooney from "O' Brother Where Art Thou?" I wonder if he cameoed in NBK's?

But thanks for playing.

[Fu-Pow]

yeah....and Shaolin Do SuXors! :mad:

[BlueTravesty]

[malevolent voice of doom] YOUR POST COUNT MAY NOT CHANGE, BUT EACH WORD ON THIS THREAD INCREASES THE "FOR REALNESS" OF SHAOLIN DO. BWAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!! :D

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! :eek:

must stop this change... kung-fu school shirt and pants... turning into... a gi.... forms I first learned... turning into katas... talking... in... labored, broken english...